UFO UpDates
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   Nov

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Nov 2003

  Nov 1:

   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [11]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [26]
   Re: Kecksburg/NASA Documents Posted - Oberg - James Oberg [11]
   Re: Kecksburg Comic And EBEN Inquiry - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [12]
   Re: Rods Bashing Abated - Hebert - A. Hebert [23]
   Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees - Gottschall - Sheryl Gottschall
   [2]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - - Alfred Lehmberg [15]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Clark - Jerome Clark [23]

  Nov 2:

   Re: FSR: UFO Cover-Up By Mussolini - Groff - Terry W. Colvin [6]
   Trindade - Kentaro Mori [58]
   Early Historical UAP - Chris Aubeck [12]
   Ufological Obstacles - Alfred Lehmberg [249]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Beau - Jerome Beau [12]

  Nov 3:

   2 'Objects' Photographed Near Cincinnati - Kenny Young [7]
   CI: A Parallelogram in Cydonia? - Mac Tonnies [55]
   Re: Request Confirmation Of MJ-12 Member - Beau - Jerome Beau [4]
   Argentina: New Cattle Mutilations in Cordoba - Scott Corrales [81]
   Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [39]
   Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [14]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Boone - Greg Boone [17]

  Nov 4:

   Re: Ufological Obstacles - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [25]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer - John Rimmer [15]
   Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [30]
   Roswell UFO Museum To 'Do Our Own Thing' - Louise A. Lowry [80]
   Re: Re: Trindade - Sparks - Brad Sparks [83]
   Re: Humanoids Without Saucers - Colvin - Terry W. Colvin [466]
   Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Miller - Stuart Miller [19]
   UFO Crashes In Germany - Heiner Gehring [26]
   Re: Secrecy News -- 11/04/03 - Aftergood - Steven Aftergood [166]
   Re: Ufological Obstacles - Auchettl - John Auchettl [16]
   Strange Days... Indeed This Saturday - Wendy Connors [16]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 42 - John Hayes [573]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 408 - Edoardo Russo [77]
   Re: Trindade - Harney - John Harney [26]
   Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Roberts - Andy Roberts [19]
   BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Nick Pope [25]
   Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [25]
   Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Morton - Dave Morton [45]
   Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [42]
   UFO's Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - Frank Warren [115]
   Parkersburg, WV UFO Sighting - Kenny Young [47]
   Re: Ufological Obstacles - Hall - Richard Hall [10]
   UFOs & Ghosts - Nick Pope [39]
   Re: Ufological Obstacles - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [35]
   Re: Ufological Obstacles - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [16]
   Re: UFOs & Ghosts - Jones - Sean Jones [13]
   Re: UFO's Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Alfred Lehmberg [13]
   Re: UFOs & Ghosts - Connors - Wendy Connors [13]

  Nov 5:

   Re: Trindade - Mori - Kentaro Mori [57]
   A Mystery In Monday Night's Sky - Frank Warren [39]
   Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Roberts - Andy Roberts [4]
   Fire In The Skies Over Region 8 - Frank Warren [38]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 405 - Edoardo Russo [97]
   Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [25]
   Re: Ufological Obstacles - Auchettl - John Auchettl [15]
   Re: UFOs & Ghosts - LeFevre - Charlette LeFevre [39]
   Late Nite Chauvanism - Alfred Lehmberg [27]
   Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Miller - Stuart Miller [108]
   Secrecy News -- 11/04/03 - Steven Aftergood [166]
   Meteor Lands In Northeast Arkansas - Frank Warren [17]
   Re: Trindade - Rimmer - John Rimmer [36]
   Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Roberts - Andy Roberts [71]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Roberts - Andy Roberts [46]
   Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [59]
   Secrecy News -- 11/05/03 - Steven Aftergood [131]
   Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Frank Warren [8]
   Filer's Files #45 -- 2003 - George A. Filer [530]
   Stalked By A UFO & Visitations - Brian Vike - HBCCUFO [249]
   Robert Guenette of 'Monsters! Mysteries Or Myths?' - Louise A. Lowry
   [93]
   Jac/Jack/Steve Lassiter/Sheridan/Solomon - Joe McGonagle [25]
   Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Beau - Jerome Beau [12]
   Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Alfred Lehmberg [15]
   Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Jaafar - Judy Jaafar [32]
   Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Roberts - Andy Roberts [42]
   Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Frank Warren [9]
   Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Bruce Maccabee [9]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Pope - Nick Pope [14]

  Nov 6:

   Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Dave Morton [19]
   List Address Change Today - UFO UpDates - Toronto [16]
   'Contrail' Info Requested - Don Ledger [47]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Roberts - Andy Roberts [17]

  Nov 7:

   Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Alfred Lehmberg [16]
   Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Frank Warren [28]
   Re: 'Contrail' Info Requested - Warren - Frank Warren [10]
   Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Frank Warren [24]
   Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Miller - Stuart Miller [72]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [52]
   Pope On A (Radio 4) Rope - Andy Roberts [35]
   Secrecy News -- 11/06/03 - Steven Aftergood [162]
   Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Sandow - Greg Sandow [6]
   Re: Trindade Scientific Update [was: Trindade] - Brad Sparks [296]
   Back Issues UK UFO Magazine? - Keith Chester [6]
   MK ULTRA - Geoffrey Richardson [7]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [19]
   Re: 'Contrail' Info Requested - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [22]
   New NIDS Paper From Jacques Vallee & Eric Davis - Colm Kelleher [36]
   Re: Andros Island Case? - Sanchez-Ocejo - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [5]

  Nov 8:

   UFO Data Treasure Trove Lands At Texas A & M - Terry W. Colvin [100]
   Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Larry Hatch [40]

  Nov 7:

   Crashed UFO Conference Update - Ryan Wood [39]

  Nov 8:

   Close Encounters Of The Japanese Kind - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [176]
   Re: MK ULTRA - White - Eleanor White [8]
   Re: Andros Island Case? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [7]
   Re: Pope On A (Radio 4) Rope - Hale - Roy Hale [11]
   Re: MK ULTRA - Hatch - Larry Hatch [5]

  Nov 9:

   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Roberts - Andy Roberts [15]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Roberts - Andy Roberts [21]
   Re: Pope On A (Radio 4) Rope - Roberts - Andy Roberts [9]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Bright - Dan Bright [19]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Pope - Nick Pope [20]
   Yukon Triangle Report - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [125]
   Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Dave Morton [105]
   Newly-Posted Photos at A.I.C. - John Velez [33]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Pope - Nick Pope [46]
   Dominican Republic UFO Crash? - Scott Corrales [49]
   UFOs Taped In Jujuy Argentina - Scott Corrales [57]
   Re: UFO Data Treasure Trove Lands At Texas A & M - - Bruce Maccabee [2]
   Re: MK ULTRA - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [14]
   Re: Pope On A (Radio 4) Rope - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [48]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [25]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Roberts - Andy Roberts [8]

  Nov 10:

   Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Max Burns [63]
   Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Lan Fleming [43]
   Re: Pope On A (Radio 4) Rope - Roberts - Andy Roberts [12]
   Re: Newly-Posted Photos at A.I.C. - Groff - Terry Groff [9]
   False Memories Characteristic Brain Activity - Bill Hamilton [48]
   Anomaly Archives Library Opens In Austin - Stephen Miles Lewis [120]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Christol - Michael Christol [36]
   Re: 'Contrail' Info Requested - Ledger - Don Ledger [7]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Hale - Roy Hale [8]
   The First Amendment's Umbrella - Larry W. Bryant [126]
   Stoner, British Columbia - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [46]
   A 1957 Wave Comparison - Larry Hatch [65]

  Nov 11:

   Strange Noises From The Sky - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [35]
   The Universe As A Hologram - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [376]
   Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [21]
   Green Bank Opens Science Center - Frank Warren [123]
   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Roberts - Andy Roberts [12]
   UFOs Over Caracas - Scott Corrales [47]
   Secrecy News -- 11/10/03 - Steven Aftergood [130]
   Punch Biopsy Photos at A.I.C. [was: Newly-Posted - John Velez [44]
   Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Rimmer - John Rimmer [29]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [19]
   Re: Pope On A (Radio 4) Rope - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [22]
   Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Mori - Kentaro Mori [239]
   Re: A 1957 Wave Comparison - Colvin - Terry W. Colvin [14]
   RCMP HQ Release of 'Space Objects Contingency Plan' - Chris Styles [38]
   John Lear Interviewed By Bell - 11-2/3-03 - UFO UpDates - Toronto [4]
   John Ford Fact - Alfred Lehmberg [14]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 43 - John Hayes [470]
   Re: 'Contrail' Info Requested - Warren - Frank Warren [9]
   John Ford Mention - Alfred Lehmberg [33]
   'Space Invaders' - Frank Warren [123]
   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [25]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Hale - Roy Hale [36]
   Re: Strange Noises From The Sky - McCoy - GT McCoy [17]
   What On Earth Is Going On At The Vatican? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [67]
   FOIA Regulations Take Another Hit - Grant Cameron [27]

  Nov 12:

   Re: Humanoids Without Saucers - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [32]
   Re: A 1957 Wave Comparison - Hatch - Larry Hatch [16]
   Devices That Read Human Thought Now Possible - Eleanor White [130]
   Aliens & ESP - Thierry Jonnaert [35]
   Re: Andros Island Case? - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [11]
   Re: The Universe As A Hologram - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [105]
   Re: What On Earth Is Going On At The Vatican? - - Terry Groff [5]
   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Pope - Nick Pope [15]
   PRG/X-PPAC/X-Conference Update 11-12-03 - Stephen G. Bassett [96]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [10]
   NASA's Missing Crates Of Kecksburg Documents - Francis Knize [193]
   West Central Minnesota Oval Object - Brian Vike - HBCCUFO [27]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Hale - Roy Hale [19]

  Nov 13:

   Re: Andros Island Case? - Sanchez-Ocejo - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [9]
   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Roberts - Andy Roberts [12]
   Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Frank Warren [10]
   Consensus Blindness - Ed Gehrman [30]
   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [23]
   Re: NASA's Missing Two Crates Of Kecksburg - James Oberg [13]
   Re: Secrecy News - 11/12/03 - Aftergood - Steven Aftergood [138]
   Re: West Central Minnesota Oval Object - Velez - John Velez [27]
   Filer's Files #46 -- 2003 - George A. Filer [550]
   Canadian National Defence Files - Gordon Heath [22]
   Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Frank Warren [37]
   Re: The Universe As A Hologram - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [39]
   Re: Punch Biopsy Photos at A.I.C. - Wilson - Katharina Wilson [81]
   Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Sparks - Brad Sparks [55]
   HBCC UFO On Dreamland - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [22]
   Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Alfred Lehmberg [17]
   Re: NASA's Missing Two Crates Of Kecksburg - Alfred Lehmberg [37]
   UK UFO Petition - Steve Watkins [10]
   Re: Filer's Files #46 -- 2003 - Ray Stanford [8]
   Re: West Central Minnesota Oval Object - Stanford - Ray Stanford [14]
   Lunar Image Anomaly - Dan Bright [20]
   Strange Skeleton Found in Concepcion Chile - Scott Corrales [33]
   Re: A 1957 Wave Comparison - Colvin - Terry W. Colvin [22]
   Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Rimmer - John Rimmer [16]
   Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Dave Morton [132]

  Nov 14:

   Our Capacity To Chose - Victor Viggiani [428]
   Location Of Alleged Roswell Crash Sites - Charles Chapman [42]
   CI: Cydonia And The Arcology Hypothesis - Mac Tonnies [114]
   More Problems For British Columbia Family - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [173]
   Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [47]
   Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Sparks - Brad Sparks [81]
   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Hale - Roy Hale [4]
   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Burns - Max Burns [23]
   Re: Punch Biopsy Photos at A.I.C. - Velez - John Velez [37]
   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Burns - Max Burns [6]
   Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Velez - John Velez [22]
   Re: Our Capacity To Chose - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [40]
   Re: A 1957 Wave Comparison - Hatch - Larry Hatch [15]
   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Roberts - Andy Roberts [78]
   Re: Our Capacity To Chose - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [17]
   Secrecy News -- 11/14/03 - Steven Aftergood [90]
   Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Bright - Dan Bright [10]
   More Reports On Light Beam & Object In BC - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [83]
   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [39]

  Nov 15:

   Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Velez - John Velez [76]
   Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Rimmer - John Rimmer [15]
   Re: More Problems For British Columbia Family - - Katharina Wilson [66]
   See Green Ball In Skies Last Night? - Frank Warren [34]
   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Hale - Roy Hale [6]
   Re: Trindade - Mori - Kentaro Mori [7]
   Re: Consensus Blindness - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [3]
   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Gates - Robert Gates [12]
   Re: Our Capacity To Chose - Hatch - Larry Hatch [21]
   Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Bright - Dan Bright [29]
   Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Bright - Dan Bright [34]
   Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers - - Frank Warren [51]
   Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Weber - Bill Weber [30]
   Re: Trindade - Rimmer - John Rimmer [9]

  Nov 16:

   Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Blanton - Terry Blanton [6]
   Re: Trindade - Clark - Jerome Clark [14]
   Re: More Problems For British Columbia Family - - Eleanor White [6]
   Budd Hopkins' Holiday Party & Art Sale '03 - The Intruders Foundation
   [53]
   Trindade Photos A Fake? - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [45]
   Re: Trindade - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [23]
   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Hale - Roy Hale [4]
   Secret Development Of The Roundwing Plane? - Heiner Gehring [11]
   25th Anniversary Of New Zealand Sightings - Bruce Maccabee [53]
   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Hale - Roy Hale [21]
   Re: Trindade - Rimmer - John Rimmer [26]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [9]
   'The Boys In Blue & Their Little Green Men' - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [48]
   Caldbeck UK 1954 UFO Crash - Nathan Steele [19]

  Nov 17:

   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [59]
   Re: Trindade - Clark - Jerome Clark [94]
   Re: 'The Boys In Blue & Their Little Green Men' - - Michael Christol
   [18]
   Re: Trindade - Connors - Wendy Connors [11]
   Re: Trindade - Fleming - Lan Fleming [13]
   Psychosociological Researchers - Wendy Connors [8]
   Larry Hatch Disinformationist Minion! - Larry Hatch [84]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Mori - Kentaro Mori [77]
   Re: Caldbeck UK 1954 UFO Crash - Hatch - Larry Hatch [6]
   Larry Hatch Manure Spreader! - Larry Hatch [96]
   Aftermath Of Dr. Mack's Book 'Abduction' - Terry W. Colvin [431]
   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Boone - Greg Boone [22]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO
   [37]
   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Hale - Roy Hale [20]
   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Rimmer - John Rimmer [7]
   Old Sydney Nova Scotia Sightings? - Eugene Frison [45]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [14]
   Re: Trindade - Harney - John Harney [20]
   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Harney - John Harney [8]
   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Velez - John Velez [64]
   Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Velez - John Velez [52]
   Re: Larry Hatch Manure Spreader! - White - Eleanor White [11]

  Nov 18:

   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - White - Eleanor White [27]
   Icy Object Orbititing Our Sun - Ray Stanford [3]
   BLM Roswell Regional Management Plan & Crash Sites - Charles Chapman
   [35]
   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Clark - Jerome Clark [12]
   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Connors - Wendy Connors [20]
   Re: Trindade - Clark - Jerome Clark [54]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Sparks - Brad Sparks [17]
   Roswell Debris Field Look For The Monument - Charles Chapman [17]
   Re: Trindade - Mori - Kentaro Mori [40]
   Re: Old Sydney Nova Scotia Sightings? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [10]
   Burns Lake & Saucers Over Clinton, B.C. - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [43]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Mori - Kentaro Mori [30]
   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Connors - Wendy Connors [7]
   2 Saucers Over Clinton BC - Brian Vike HBCC UFO [51]
   Re: Larry Hatch Manure Spreader! - Mott - Mike Mott [25]
   Leonid 'Fireworks' Coming Soon - Ray Stanford [21]
   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Connors - Wendy Connors [6]
   Re: Trindade - Gevaerd - A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [26]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Sanchez-Ocejo - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
   [22]
   Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Sparks - Brad Sparks [122]
   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Boone - Greg Boone [14]
   Psycho-Social Ufological Research 101 - Wendy Connors [11]
   Rendelsham UFOs Verified? - Roy Hale [10]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd - A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [29]
   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Boone - Greg Boone [113]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd - A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [13]
   Re: Larry Hatch Manure Spreader! - Hatch - Larry Hatch [7]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd - A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [16]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Cunha - Pedro Luz Cunha [20]
   Re: BLM Roswell Regional Management Plan & Crash - Wendy Connors [4]

  Nov 19:

   Re: Trindade - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [18]
   Re: Trindade - Clark - Jerome Clark [5]
   Re: Icy Object Orbititing Our Sun - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [5]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Hall - Richard Hall [25]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd - A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [34]
   Re: Larry Hatch Manure Spreader! - Hatch - Larry Hatch [29]
   Re: Trindade - Hall - Richard Hall [14]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Mori - Kentaro Mori [8]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [5]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [4]
   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Rimmer - John Rimmer [15]
   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Rimmer - John Rimmer [4]
   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Rimmer - John Rimmer [6]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [18]
   Re: Caldbeck UK 1954 UFO Crash - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [10]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [9]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [10]
   1978 Italian Wave [was: A 1957 Wave Comparison] - Edoardo Russo [25]
   General Wesley Clark On Letterman - Grant Cameron [5]
   MILABs? - Thiago Luiz Ticchetti [8]
   Re: Trindade - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [19]
   Re: Icy Object Orbititing Our Sun - Stanford - Ray Stanford [10]
   Re: Trindade - Jonnaert - Thierry Jonnaert [53]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Ledger - Don Ledger [24]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Clark - Jerome Clark [10]
   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Connors - Wendy Connors [31]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Cunha - Pedro Luz Cunha [25]
   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Clark - Jerome Clark [16]
   Filer's Files #47 -- 2003 - George A. Filer [537]
   Secrecy News -- 11/19/03 - Steven Aftergood [126]
   Re: Trindade - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [19]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [6]
   Roswell Crash Monument Inscription - Charles Chapman [15]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Harney - John Harney [13]
   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [47]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [63]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [23]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Mori - Kentaro Mori [7]
   Re: Psychiatry & Ufology - Bassett - Steve Bassett [8]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd - A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [12]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Mori - Kentaro Mori [44]
   Psychiatry & Ufology - Greg Boone [27]

  Nov 20:

   Re: Roswell Crash Monument Inscription - Rimmer - John Rimmer [4]
   Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Rimmer - John Rimmer [5]
   Science Museum UFO Debate - Nick Pope [12]
   Re: Trinidade - Jonnaert - Thierry Jonnaert [48]
   Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - UFO UpDates - Toronto [186]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [4]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [10]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Clark - Jerome Clark [9]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Mori - Kentaro Mori [48]
   New Hudson Valley UFO Site - Vinny Polise [14]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Cunha - Pedro Luz Cunha [4]
   NASA's 'Analysis' Of STS-48 Video - Lan Fleming [60]
   Radar UFO Over White House? - Chris Rutkowski [7]
   Pelican Migration Passes Our Way - Dave Morton [10]
   NASA Stonewalling On Kecksburg - Chaz Stuart [60]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 1

             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 23:02:46 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 08:22:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:33:03 EST
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>Y'know this thread is case-in-point of what's wrong with
>Ufology.

>I started this thread to bring attention to an event of almost
>20 years ago yet has turned into a slapfest initiated by Magonia
>Magazine's John Rimmer.

>Rimmer you started this by taking a swipe at my post and then
>apologizing to me for doing so then attacking Mr. Clark whom
>I've never read of or seen nor heard of being as rude and
>disingenuous as you've presented yourself.

Can't recall apologising, but I'll bet you've read a lot more of
Mr Clark over the past week. Surprising, as at least twice he's
informed this List that he can't be bothered replying further to
my rambling posts!

>I stopped by Magonia to see what type of magazine/site it's
>supposed to be and it's typical of the British approach to
>journalism that turns my stomach.

Could you be a little bit more precise about which particular
part of Magonia's journalism turns your stomach? We do
appreciate reader feedback.

>If I were the U.K. public I'ld
>storm the papers and broadcasters there like the French did the
>Bastille. They're a bunch of vicious, vindictive gossip mongers
>who do mankind no service whatsoever. They should be ashamed of
>themselves and we in the U.S. who've allowed our press to
>degrade to their level should be as equally ashamed.

It's called press freedom. I thought you Americans were keen on that.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 23:00:58 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 08:23:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:09:47 -0600
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>Patient and gentle listfolk:

Oh, dear, here we go again.

>If this is the hoax John believes (or anyway represents himself
>as believing) it is, it would have been disproved long ago.
>There would have been no shortage of negative witnesses, and we
>would have had their names and statements long since, inasmuch
>as Trindade is one of the most publicized UFO cases of all time,
>the subject of inquiries by journalists, military officers,
>government officials, ufologists, and debunkers. Nearly five
>decades after the case surfaced, NOT ONE negative witness has
>stepped forward to say that nothing happened.

If this was a genuine case as Jerry believes (or anyway
represents himself in his encyclopedia as believing) it would
have been proved long ago, as surely there would have been no
shortage of witnesses (after all, Jerry himself tells us there
were 48) and we would have had their names and statements long
since, inasmuch as Trindade is one of the most publicized UFO
cases of all time, the subject of inquiries by journalists,
military officers, government officials, ufologists, and
debunkers. Nearly five decades after the case surfaced, NOT ONE
independent witness has stepped forward to say that something
happened.

I know that for the rest of you, that's simple enough to
understand: I have presented a falsifiable hypothesis, which
Jerry has failed to falsify - just the name of one other witness
will suffice to do it.

>Until John produces the names and testimonies of all, or even a
>few - or even one or two - of those negative witnesses (is
>anyone out there holding breath?), no productive discussion of
>Trindade along the lines on which John is so obsessively fixated
>is possible. As I don't have to tell the rest of you.

Is anybody holding their breath for the exciting new "blow you
out of the water" evidence which Jerry was sounding off about a
year ago?

>If John wants to say that he refuses to credit that the case and
>photos are authentic because he rejects the very notion that
>UFOs exist, okay, fine, we all have our prejudices. But if he
>wants to argue from evidence, he has a whole other set of
>obligations, which so far he has not even begun to meet.

>Give it a rest, John, or at least try to fashion an argument
>that doesn't insult our - not to mention your - intelligence. Or
>maybe you've given up the ultimate pelicanist sacrifice: your
>brains for the cause.

Jerry, I really am disappointed with the way you have
consistently resorted to bluster and empty invective in this
thread, and have systematically refused to respond to a simple
question.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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   Nov > Nov 1

                 Re: Kecksburg/NASA Documents Posted - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:06:08 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 08:27:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Kecksburg/NASA Documents Posted - Oberg


>From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@presidency.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:14:51 -0500
>Subject: Kecksburg/NASA Documents Posted


>http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/FOIA/Kecksberg-UFO.pdf

>Presidents UFO Website

>www.presidentialufo.com


Showing that NASA was involved in identifying fallen satellite
fragments - 'fragology' they called it - to determine country of
origin, for returning said pieces per treaty requirements, and
that all such material was classified no higher than
'confidential', and that they knew so little about the Kecksburg
event (just what they saw in the media) they spelled it three or
four different ways, and that 'moon dust' to them meant mostly
gritty black stuff under the boots of the Apollo astronauts
(with one exception, a document citation).

Big yawn......

Jim Oberg







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               Re: Kecksburg Comic And EBEN Inquiry - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:20:30 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 08:31:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Kecksburg Comic And EBEN Inquiry - Tonnies


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:39:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: Kecksburg Comic And EBEN Inquiry

<snip>

>>>Isn't this a video grab from the supposed "Alien Interrogation"
>>>at Area 51?

>>Terry,

>>Nope. This is a distinctly different creature. To
>read the story behind it, see:

>>http://www.ufoconspiracy.com

>Hiya Mac, Terry,

>Terry writes:

>>Fake or not, I find it impressive.

>Me three! That sucker 'looks' real to me and I've seen a few in
>my time. I think we're asking the wrong questions though. 'If'
>that thing is a manufactured dummy, then no doubt somebody spent
>a heap of bread to pay for it. 'Movie studio' kind of money.

>I am a huge movie buff but I don't recall ever having seen that
>particular 'dummy' (if that is what it is,) in any sci-fi movie or
>anywhere else for that matter. Has anyone seen it in a movie?
>On TV maybe?

>That thing was made (if it is manufactured) by a really
>competent artist/sculptor. There can't be more than a handful of
>artists that are known for producing such work. An Internet
>search and e-mail query might be a do-able way of finding out if
>any of them know anything about it.

>And finally, it doesn't make much sense for anyone to go to that
>kind of obvious expense to produce a single photo to fool people
>who are interested in UFOs and their occupants/
>pilots/builders.

>That is the only photo I have ever seen that depicts a 'grey'
>alien so accurately. Who ever made it either saw one him/her
>self, or was guided by someone who has seen one.
>Dead on.

John,

I had the same reaction to it even though I've never seen one if
real life. It has a realistic quality to it that makes the
hackles rise. I agree with you re. how strange it is that this
amazing picture crops up on some obscure UFO conspiracy website.
Where are the masks and hand-painted busts? If this is a fake,
why isn't it turning a profit somewhere?

Happy Halloween,

Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)







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   Nov > Nov 1

                      Re: Rods Bashing Abated - Hebert

From: A. Hebert <vanguard@preciousmemories1.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 19:17:22
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 08:39:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Rods Bashing Abated - Hebert


>From: Joe Escamilla publicrelationsdept@themidwaysighting.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:55:15 -0800 (PST)
>Subject: Rods Bashing Abated

>PRESS RELEASE:

>http://www.prweb.com/releases/2003/11/prweb87144.php
>November 1, 2003
>Rods Bashing Abated

>Today, there are a few prominent UFO Researchers who 'bash', the
>Rods Phenomenon, but, do so under the misguided guise of
>"comingling Jose Escamilla with The Midway Rods (TM) Phenomenon,
>even though they have been aware of his resignation, since
>November of 1994.

The "Rods" theories have not been bashed, they have been studied
by others who sought the truth and found these objects to be
nothing more than insects. I have personally filmed and
photographed enough of these images to know, beyond a shadow of
a doubt, that the images of objects labeled and promoted as
"rods" are, indeed, insects.

For more information about what others have found by studying
these images, follow the links below:

http://zaziork.com/theunexplained/rods_exposed/rods1.htm


And more links not in my original study but examples of
excellent research:

http://www.flyingrods.com/articlesfl/denny/denny1.asp

http://www.flyingrods.com/galleryfl/index.asp

Go down the page to the section titled "Filming Bees by Denny
White" and "More Filming Bees by Denny White" for some revealing
images


http://www.flyingrods.com/indexfl.asp

http://www.flyingrods.com/articlesfl/solvedorcrow.asp

If you still have doubts about what these alleged "rods" images
represent - go out, use the techniques I used and the techniques
used by others and see the truth for yourself.


Sincerely,

A. Hebert







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             Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees - Gottschall

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha@bigpond.net.au>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:58:41 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 08:41:24 -0500
Subject: Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees - Gottschall


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:40:14 +0000
>Subject: Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees

>>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha@bigpond.net.au>
>>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>>Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:40:18 +1000
>>Subject: Re: FSR: Victim Mentality In Abductees

>>I can't comment on Anne Druffel's book as I have not read it but
>>one of the speakers at the 2001 Australian National UFO
>>conference was Brenda Butler, an experiencer.

>Is this the Brenda Butler who was the first investigator of the
>Rendlesham case?


No it's not John.


Sheryl







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                 Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 09:23:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 11:13:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story -


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 23:02:46 +0000
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>>Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:33:03 EST
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>Y'know this thread is case-in-point of what's wrong with
>>Ufology.

<snip>

>It's called press freedom. I thought you Americans were keen on that.


That, sir, given your interpretation of what constitutes an
actuality of a 'free' press, might well be taken as the refuge
of a scoundrel.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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              Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 10:11:49 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 11:35:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 23:00:58 +0000
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:09:47 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

Patient and gentle (and no doubt laughing) listfolk, one more
time:

John Rimmer cannot produce the name of a single negative
witness. None has emerged after nearly five decades, which any
reasonable observer would find significant. Could that mean -
 gasp - that no such witness exists? Rather than answer this
simple and obvious question - which, as we all know now, he
can't - he chooses to go on and on down a deadend road in a car
which, in any event, ran out of gas long ago. Perhaps soon some
child will inform him, as did another long ago an emperor who
was not clad as finely as he thought he was, that the vehicle
isn't moving.

Or, to use another metaphor I've employed before, his team has
yet to score a run; yet he declares that his side is winning
because the other team, which has scored runs, hasn't scored as
many as Rimmer declares it must. The fans out there in the
stands are shaking their heads.

As I wrote before and here repeat:

>>Until John produces the names and testimonies of all, or even a
>>few - or even one or two - of those negative witnesses (is
>>anyone out there holding breath?), no productive discussion of
>>Trindade along the lines on which John is so obsessively fixated
>>is possible. As I don't have to tell the rest of you.

And as, sadly, John has proved one more time. We are seeing, I'm
afraid, a morbid case of a man who gave up his intelligence,
common sense, and dignity for the dubious cause of pelicanism.
Let it be a lesson to all.


Jerry Clark







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                 Re: FSR: UFO Cover-Up By Mussolini - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 19:49:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:48:54 -0500
Subject: Re: FSR: UFO Cover-Up By Mussolini - Colvin


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:42:52 -0500
>Subject: Re: FSR: UFO Cover-Up By Mussolini


>Anyone know the present status of this investigation?

There is nothing in subsequent issues of Flying Saucer Review.

Terry


-- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com







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                                  Trindade

From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:12:49 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 14:05:07 -0500
Subject: Trindade


Hi,

This question has already been pointed before on this List
(actually, it was on this List that I first read about it), but
I would like to point out again the question of the apparent
uncanny similarity of the image of the Trindade Island UFO on
photos 1 and 2 (inverted):

http://www.strbrasil.com/ca/trindadehoax.htm

Yes, I'm using copies of copies (of maybe copies) of the
originals. Even then, the similarity is something curious.

Also, I would like to indicate again the article by Martin
Powell:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mjpowell/Trindade/Trindade.htm

Powell itself used versions of the photos published on a book.
Even then, the similarity is something curious. More curious if
we presume that the casual degradation of the versions I used,
and that he used, should be different.

Then, I would like to indicate the superb and detailed work
about the case by Luis Noguez (available on-line, in Spanish):

http://www.strbrasil.com/ca/noguez_trindade00.htm

Interesting fact: a couple of years before his death, in the
year 2000, Almiro Barauna produced new copies of the photos,
from negatives. It's been said, on this occasion, that he didn't
lend these negatives to anyone, and took great care with them. I
don't know if they were THE original negatives (which, according
to other accounts, had been sold to a news agency, and according
to yet another accounts, earned Barauna sufficient money to buy
an appartment), or just more copies. Maybe someone else can tell
more about it.

Anyway. I'm in Brazil, I'm trying to investigate the case, and
I'm not the only one. The case is being promoted here as one
solid and evident authentic case (opposing the Barra da Tijuca
case). Hopefully, if there's still a chance to uncover more
evidence, that will be done. Yet, as I must repeat, I'm not the
only one trying to do that, that is being done for not a short
time, and unfortunately nothing new has surfaced, that I know
of.

In fact, the most interesting thing that I think has surfaced
recently is exactly the resemblance of the images of the UFO.
But that was already noted by Capt Sunderland. So, nothing
actually new. What would indeed be new would be a professional
analysis trying to specifically confirm or deny this element.
It's been said that the fact that photographic analyses were
done proves that the question of inversion has been already
examined, and it have been discarded. I second that. I suspect
that the question of inversion was never professionally
analysed. Even if it was, why not analyse it again, with more
detail, if that is possible?

Afterall, the photos are the only physical evidence. They alone,
if proved a hoax, can disprove even 48 witnesses testimony, even
if their original accounts somehow surfaced. Maybe not disprove
that something was seen, but that Barauna photographed what was
seen, whatever it may have been. So, I find curious how little
attention has been paid to this question of the apparent
inversion. Perhaps I'm just uninformed, but if it is so, I
humbly beg you to inform me. Sincerely.

My best regards to all,

Kentaro Mori
http://www.strbrasil.com/ca/






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                            Early Historical UAP

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 16:55:04 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 20:16:01 -0500
Subject: Early Historical UAP


We invite experienced researchers interested in this area of
study to join our private e-list for sharing historical accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena.

http://embark.to/magonia

Chris Aubeck

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Chris Aubeck
Idiomas SEIF
Carrera de S. Jeronimo, 17, 1=BA - A
Madrid 28014
Spain

tlf: 687758960







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                            Ufological Obstacles

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 12:18:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 20:22:56 -0500
Subject: Ufological Obstacles


UFOLOGICAL OBSTACLES

Is Ufology impeded? It doesn't seem to go anywhere. I mean...
it's been stuck in neutral for the last fifty years for all the
valiant attempts to steer it into the mainstream. What keeps
ufology in a giggle-factor limbo? What banishes it to the realm
of tabloid magazines?

By definition...ufology remains disqualified, betrayed and
denied! What disqualifies its respect? What betrays what's
scientific about it? What denies the reality of millions of
people with the insulting analysis that they're misinformed,
misleading, or mentally ill?

The forces arrayed against the ufological are mighty...

That there is a well funded and steady push from "uphill"
against disclosure is obvious. This is abundantly reflected by
the busy imps at CSICOP! It's ponderously reflected in the
dismissive attitude (and senseless!) inattention of a corporate
mainstream media. It is profusely reflected in the suspicious
actions of black_ box institutions, unaccountable agencies, and
non-elected government officials... all of these engaged in an
ongoing but dismissed, ridiculed, and wrongfully discredited
conspiracy to deceive.

Why?

Why risk the betrayal of trust that this official behavior must
absolutely generate! Why provide for the denigration of the
agencies, institutions, and governments we need to survive in a
21st Century? Why invalidate a mainstream media needed to keep
us properly informed... and so then able to give intelligent,
rational, and informed consent in the truth of a viable society?

What strange mechanisms force our cultural authority to work so
furiously to discredit itself? =What= are they hiding?

These "powers that be" _are_ duplicitous and obfuscating... This
becomes increasingly apparent as the most powerful nation on
Earth is hijacked by... religious fundamentalists and "just
business" corporate fiends, elitists, and other monsters
beholden, allegedly, only to the *shameless*, nameless, and
cluelessly blameless... stockholders.

That these *powers that be* are duplicitous and obfuscating is
easily demonstrable in everyday life, and... we only have to
take a short walk in the prosaic to see it all stand revealed
for the self_ involved shame that our culture really is.

Revealed is the shame regarding justice because it is only
available to the highest bidder. Revealed is the shame of
dishonesty concerning sex because it's teasingly pushed into
your face on the one hand, and then you're persecuted for
indulging in it on the other. Revealed is the shame of double_
dealing as regards even our physical well being... as hazardous
pharmaceuticals and toxic food substances are celebrated ...
while vitamin and mineral supplementations undeniably required
by human beings are furiously invalidated (and so, if I can
digress... at the root of _much_ of the chronic disease of this
21st Century - from Attention Deficit Disorder to Cancer and
Heart disease and beyond...)!

The point...? If they'll lie and deny about the everyday,
they'll work overtime to clutter_ up the *highly strange*!
Especially if the *highly strange* complicates their program.
Especially if the *highly strange* invalidates their standard.
Especially if the *highly strange* implicates them in the
commission of their crime! Especially, if the *highly strange*
interferes with their very convenient and coveted status quo...
And please, please, please... challenge me on who "they" are.

So, what's wrong with UFOs?

Everything, because they CHANGE everything. Sorry! Aristotle's
crystal spheres are righteously shattered at last! Get over it!
The deceitfulness, dishonesty, and double_ dealing we talked
about a moment ago becomes outmoded, outdated, and
invalidated... and you know what Errol? This is even assuming
full disclosure _is_ some new deceitfulness, dishonesty, and
double_ dealing perpetrated by aliens and replacing the former
human ones! LOL! We're used to deceitfulness, dishonesty, and
double_ dealing! We've been the subjects of master human
manipulators, programmers, and controllers for years! Let's
sample a New variety!

... and consider this, it may be the *aggregate* individual
prefers that *NEW* deceitfulness , dishonesty, and double_
dealing, forsaking the old... and there's the rub! Do you see
it?

What's _wrong_ with UFOs?

UFOs are the purest of pure seditions. They're not beholden to
the unequally applied laws, convenient mores, and occluded
sensibilities of humankind! Their star- faring or dimension
hopping precludes the necessity for any respect shown us and our
infant's ways! They are a clear challenge, you see, to the sense
of loyalty and allegiance the individual is supposed to feel
towards... God, the state, community, and traditional family!
This is the nature of the threat they impose... not to invade,
or depose and subjugate, but to offer the individual an
attractive alternative to the current status quo!

If aliens _were_ here to subjugate and dominate then all that
our leadership would have to do is give us a hint of that
reality (like it does with regard to the threat of
Fundamentalist Islam?) and we would sign on for the most
draconian reductions, imaginable - of our rights, benefits and
entitlements (just like we have with the war on terror, or the
war on drugs).

Anyway...

Your acceptance of a ufological reality is the gestalt
realization that some perceivable *someone* or *some- thing*
doesn't have to answer to the likes of George Walker Bush or his
deputy tyrant (the Anointed) John Ashcroft... This is a source
of extreme discomfort for George and John (and their shadow
handlers) who are, without question, men more comfortable
officiating guns, scheduled drugs, and the huge piles of blood
money precipitating from those things... than they are
investigating the righteous ufology!

Hmmm... Perhaps something's being kept from us that only causes
us spiritual or philosophical problems, if we are exposed to it?
Perhaps non- disclosure of the ufological is imposed upon us for
our own good! We can't... *handle the truth*? Our ignorance is
bliss! Is ignorance _ever_ bliss?

No.

Reject "blissful ignorance" because it does not work, it does
not respect you, and it seems to prove, invariably, that it's
only a mechanism for the control of _your_ energies and _your_
efforts on projects or activities you're, by *design*, not well
informed about. Seriously, to let an individual go blithely
along in an ignorance that suits the manipulator and not the
individual... is to communicate an ongoing lie! You are being
lied to if others know better, and don't tell you. That's not
informed consent. That is duplicity and obfuscation and _I_
would be expected to be jailed or otherwise discredited if it
was _me_ engaged in that behavior...

Additionally! It has been pompously intoned that "It is folly to
be wise when ignorance is bliss." But, you see, that old proverb
makes an assumption that continued ignorance equals continued
bliss, and this is not the case. Ignorance, from my experience,
can be bliss... only for the moment! In the real world there is
always a premium paid for ignorance, and that bill must
eventually come due. In the real world ignorance equals loss,
injustice, sickness, and failure... abject failure... failure to
grow, failure to achieve, and failure to make meaningful
progress! Truly, the only life worth living is the examined one,
and ignorant bliss is a tragic booby- trap where the individual
concerned is not aware that his primrose path is a minefield.

More obfuscation! It has been proclaimed that we don't have any
disclosure out of interests regarding National Security... but
anyone who has skimmed Richard Dolan's book "UFO's and the
National Security State," knows that to be the tired, overused.
and shopworn rubric that it is!

No... secret keeping has been so roundly abused and inbred over
the last 50 years... that the original reasons for it are
rendered, largely, invalid. "Need to know" is a concept too
anally applied anymore and the best information available is
forgotten, buried, and otherwise concealed behind faceless,
autocratic, and arbitrary little men, and away from persons who
could make better use of it! These "secret keepers" have misused
their privilege, undeniably, when they can tell sitting
presidents that they don't have a "need to know"! Consider... a
vetted person... elected to the highest office in the land and
required to officiate the most critical of "informed consents".
_He_ does not have "a need to know" but his unelected, nebulous,
and non- accountable underling, does... what's up with THAT!
Flag down!

Is there quality information with regard to UFOs hidden from
rank and file individuals? Almost certainly! Does the
information available justify attention by the mainstream...
Absolutely!

Yet the mainstream does NOT pay that attention! Not because we
would be better off in some blissful ignorance. Not because the
truth is too horrible to be known! Not because our national
security is so fragile and imperiled! No.

We decry UFOs, and we keep UFOs *indistinct* with "giggle
factors" and "denial campaigns", to protect a corrupt,
scurrilous, and demeaning Status Quo... a Status Quo framed,
incidentally, by a self_ absorbed minority of tenth generation
pirates and clever sociopaths. We avoid a ufological
investigation... friends and neighbors, to accommodate the
wishes of a few who handily _dictate_ that we be fed manure and
kept in the dark like a consumable mushroom. Verily, UFOs are
ridiculed for the benefit of the few at the, transparent,
expense of the many...

UFOs are the reality! It's most everything else that is the
distraction, obfuscation, or lie in the fog... much of what we
only think we know is a distraction contrived wholly or in part
to divert individual attention from the bigger picture and
larger reality...

These diversionary components include warfare (always at the
convenience of a few who won't be doing any of the fighting),
overpopulation (a horrific program to insure that there are
always more worker-bees available than have to be paid
individual respect), public education (a device to assembly-
line manufacture docile employees at the expense of their
critical thinking), and an ironic system of health care (a
scurrilous enterprise to manage illness at the expense of curing
it). It's all a ruse... to keep you, the hapless individual,
dazed and confused and so NOT demanding information upon which
you can base an informed consent!

Honestly, if you knew the actual costs of some of things you
take for granted around you, you'd likely, quite gladly, just
say no... Indeed, the individual lacks information in the first
place because the rank and file would demand a fairness they're
more than willing to pay, fairly, for... even as their
manipulators are not! Back at the ufological ranch...

What can we do about a ridiculed ufology, given the powerful,
cultural, and sociopathic forces arrayed against it? What can we
do?

Well - considering the recent successes of the Science Fiction
Channel at the mere suggestion of civil action (busting loose
some, albeit ho-hum, documents regarding the Kecksburg
affair?)... We can, very simply stated, sue for grievances in
civil court for damages incurred... damages incurred as a result
of the denial of our civil right to give informed consent in a
*free* society! The public is having a dangerous fraud
perpetrated upon on it for reasons that are not being made
evident. This is wrong.

Now what's that going to cost _you- ?

Well - the first thing you have to be prepared for is that much
of what you hold valuable now might be perceived later as
dangerous, ignoble, or even unintelligent... childish things
better put behind you... Motor cars and fast food, for
instance... Hey! It's the future. ...As it has _always_ been, we
change or we die! The _history_ of Humanity!

Cost? ...One time at Mickey "D's"...ten bucks, say.

...If everyone in the sound of my voice gave up ten dollars to a
ufological civil fund and that fund hired a cracker_ jack person
to organize the legal assault, we could precipitate that
disclosure (we all know is a good thing even if we can't
articulate why...) in a comparative eye_ blink!

The person to hire is one Daniel Sheehan, I think. Sheehan is a
barrister with a _proven_ track record of stunning successes
prosecuting difficult cases like Watergate, Wounded Knee, Karen
Silkwood, Iran/Contra, Dr. John Mack, Ollie North and a host of
others... His competence is more than merely vetted and his
resume is spectacular. Moreover, he already has a plan for a
legal assault that is irresistible because it does not have to
chase a ufological quarry down the path it's on... for a loss...
No, rather it flanks the problem obliquely and effectively
prosecutes it from a path that runs parallel to it which _is_
 prosecutorial... where the direct approach was not, you see...

All he needs is a grassroots effort to produce a war-chest and
he's got the problem well on the way to being solved at best or
most significantly addressed at worst! This thing could be done
right, if we wanted to do it. We're *power* we don't use!

It's pretty obvious that we are all in a position to _start_ that
effort at the grass roots... we are the grassroots. Do we
_want_ to do something about this? I think yes. Blissful
ignorance is a myth and a very real minefield. *Knowing* is
better. Then, we can build something that's real. *Real* is
better.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00
pledged - $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
_ Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.





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   Nov > Nov 2

              Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Beau

From: Jerome Beau <jbeau@noos.fr>
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 19:55:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 20:26:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Beau


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>To: UFO
>UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 23:00:58 +0000
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story


Hello John, the list,

>If this was a genuine case as Jerry believes (...) it would
>have been proved long ago, as surely there would have been no
>shortage of witnesses (...) and we would have had their names
>and statements long since, inasmuch as Trindade is one of the
>most publicized UFO cases of all time, the subject of
>inquiries by journalists, military officers, government
>officials, ufologists, and debunkers. Nearly five decades
>after the case surfaced, NOT ONE independent witness has
>stepped forward to say that something happened.

Maybe one reason why we didn't get more witnesses info (names,
statements) is stated in the "F=F4lha da Manh=F1" of S=E3o Paulo,
issue on February 21, 1958 :

"The School_Ship is at anchor off Rio de Janeiro Bay and we have
learned that the crew is forbidden to talk to reporters,
according to severe orders especially issued."

Indeed, we have to keep in mind that nearly all witnesses were
military people submitted to such orders. Non-military witnesses
were the known witnesses (Barauna, Filho, Viegas).


Hope this helps,

Jerome







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   Nov > Nov 3

                  2 'Objects' Photographed Near Cincinnati

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 20:22:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:19:43 -0500
Subject: 2 'Objects' Photographed Near Cincinnati


I took some photos of 2 interesting "objects" seen near
Cincinnati, Ohio on Sunday afternoon, November 2, 2003 and have
some of the photos and details online at:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/pioneer03.html

Any comments are appreciated.

Thanks,

Kenny Young







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                       CI: A Parallelogram in Cydonia?

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 23:31:14 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:22:02 -0500
Subject: CI: A Parallelogram in Cydonia?


Cydonian Imperative
11-3-03

A Parallelogram in Cydonia?
by Mac Tonnies

See: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 43)

On page 42 I introduced a most interesting anomaly discovered by
Bob Harrison, proprietor of the Cydonia Quest website. Further
analysis of the "Diamond" (or "Parallelogram") reveals geometry
thought to be consistent with the Mound Geometry Hypothesis
advanced by Dr. Horace Crater and Prof. Stanley McDaniel of the
Society for Planetary SETI Research (SPSR). Unlike most Mars
anomalies thought by some to represent intelligent design, the
Parallelogram offers the potential for mathematically
quantifiable evidence favoring artificiality. In a scientific
arena fogged with accusations of "seeing faces" and "wanting to
believe," such hard numerical data is precisely the sort
required by researchers hoping to advance the Cydonia inquiry.

[image]

The Diamond/Parallelogram. Tracing by Mac Tonnies.

McDaniel, intrigued by the Parallelogram's proximity to Mound E,
has suggested that the right-hand line of the Parallelogram
might be largely, if not entirely, inferred by the viewer.
Close-up views of the formation suggest that the right-hand line
is a real feature, albeit heavily eroded. McDaniel also notes
several dark stripes that emanate from the apparant right-hand
line. These are most clearly visible in the small-scale graphic
featured above. Significantly, these faint stripes run parallel
both to each other and to the top and bottom lines of the
Parallelogram, lending further support to the contention that
the right-hand line is an actual morphology and not a subjective
impression. While the effect is by no means spectacular, it
brings to mind the possibility of shallow, buried structures
consistent with the build-up of soil that partially obscures -
 Mound E. (Like terrestrial archaeological sites, the
Parallelogram appears decidedly weathered, on the brink of being
consumed by the Martian landscape. It's possible that its state
of preservation is due to the protection offered by shifting
Martian sands.)

My tracing of the Parallelogram reveals a further oddity. In the
upper right corner is a small angular formation whose angles
correspond, within margin of error, with the "reconstruction"
seen in red. Close perusal shows that this formation, which I
term the "Cornerstone," is decidedly unsual: it features four
"walls" and an enclosed interior space, very much like a
roofless, one-room building. It can be seen in much better
detail in the image below.

[image]

Investigation continues. If artificial, the Parallelogram would
seem to be an unexpected extension of the Mound Geometry
Hypothesis, in which the relative positions of various small
anomalies in the Cydonia region comprise a mathematical
"signal." Is it possible that an extraterrestrial intelligence
has left a deliberate message encoded in the harsh Martian
landscape?

-end-







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               Re: Request Confirmation Of MJ-12 Member - Beau

From: Jerome Beau <jbeau@noos.fr>
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 14:05:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:26:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Request Confirmation Of MJ-12 Member - Beau



>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 08:33:50 -0500
>Subject: Re: Request Confirmation Of MJ-12 Member

>(I think he was part of the 1953 Robertson Panel. Haven't got
>time to check on this now, but I'm sure the vast knowledge base
>represented by the kibitzers on this list will confirm or deny
>same.)

Yes Thornton Page was part of the Roberston Panel, as stated in
the Panel's report, appendix A:

http://rr0.org/images/1953-01-17_Robertson_TabA.gif


Jerome








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                Argentina: New Cattle Mutilations in Cordoba

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
Date: Monday, November 03, 2003 9:33 AM
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:30:16 -0500
Subject: Argentina: New Cattle Mutilations in Cordoba


SOURCE: C=EDrculo Ovnilogico Riocuartense
DATE: October 30, 2003

NEW CATTLE MUTILATIONS IN THE PROVINCE OF CORDOBA
A report from the Circulo Ovnilogico Riocuartense

We would like to inform you that this organization was present
at the "La Ranchada" field near "El Naranjo" in the department
of Rio Cuarto at the request of its owner, since the death and
mutilation of a bovine had taken place. The following are the
particulars of the case.

VISUAL REPORT

At the field known as "La Ranchada" near "El Naranjo", latitude
32  49  South and longitude 64 50 West; being leased by Ms.
Viviana Olivares, the date being the 28th day of October of 2003
and the time being 1:00 hours, the undersigned met in
repressentation of the Circulo Ovnilogico Riocuartense in order
to carry out a survey and investigation arising from the
discovery of a dead and mutilated bovine. The site is an
extensive canyon with an estimated depth of 25 meters from the
level of the local road that winds its way eastwoard, and which
naturally serves a a channel for runoff [...]. The canyon's
width is of 9.30 meters on average and its surface is very damp
as one progresses toward the indicated watercourse. Almost
halfway along said canyon, which measures approximately 300
meters from south to north, there lay a female bovine some 5 to
6 years old, mixed breed, black in color, lying on its right
side (seen from the rear) and showing the initial signs of
putrefaction and the presence of abundant maggots and foul
smell. Said maggots were found on the chest, udders, anus, under
the left eyelid and the presence of serum ejaculate is also
present. The absence of the left eye is evident, as well as the
tongue, the ear, all of the head tissue, particularly that of
the jawbone. Looking inside its mouth, the cavity was empty and
the bones that constitute the head were completely free of
tissue. The tail, anus, vagina and udders are in their places
and there is no sign of missing organs nor orifices on the
animal's carcas. The bovine's head is pointed eastward and its
hind legs toward the west. No signs of violence in the body nor
signs of agony prior to death, such as kicking or rolling on the
ground, were evident. There is no sign of any type of blood
outflow, nor visible wounds on the bovine's body. To judge by
the maggots, small pieces of hide have fallen off; upon contact
these patches turn to dust and give off a strong smell of
putrefaction. A more or less circular hole is evident where the
left ear was located; its edges are smooth and no tooth marks
were in evidence. Another element reported is that aerial
predators avoid the body and neither the other bovines nor the
few dogs to be found in the area have approached it either.
Measurements and photographs were taken and renderings of the
site were made. Without further to report, the survey was
concluded at 18:30 on the day cited above. The participants set
their signatures hereunder.

Mario Luis Bracamonte
Dante Guerrero Merhi

AN INTERVIEW WITH MR. BERARDO

At the site, the acting researchers held a dialogue at 18:30
hours of October 28th, 2003 with Carlos Elias Berardo, an
Argentine national, 17, rural employee who was asked about how
he had come across the animal. He replied: "I was returning on
horseback from Las Albahacas along with Mr. Ramon Olivares when
we saw a fallen animal near the "El Naranjo". Upon approaching,
we could see that it was a  mixed breed cow some 6 years in
age."

Upon closer inspection, they ascertained that it was mising its
tongue, left eye and ear. He was asked if some other particulars
had been noticed: "Nothing aside from what's been said."

When asked about the animal's position, he replied that its head
was pointed east and its hind legs west, and that the body was
soft upon being touched, leading them to believe that it had
been dead for a short time. Viviana Olivares, lesee of the
property stated: "I didn't wantto call the folks from the
University of Rio Cuarto anymore, since  they were adamant that
these events are linked to rodents (mice)."

Given that Ms. Olivares is convinced (or so it seems) that these
events are not the result of rodent action, since she has worked
for four years as a veterinarian's assitant in the province of
Mendoza and professes to know details which lead her to beleive
that other factors are at work which elude logic. This she said
during the dialogue held in her home. The incisions that she has
witnessed in two other incidents on her field are clean and no
tooth marks were observed that could suggest the presence of
rodents, dogs or predators.






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   Nov > Nov 3

                 Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:26:37 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:37:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Gehrman


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:33:28 -0500
>Subject: Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update

>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:30:34 -0800
>>Subject: Cameraman's Crash Site Update

>>Cameraman's crash site update

>>On October 23, my wife, brother and I visited the dry lakebed
>>ten miles southwest Socorro known to us as the cameraman's crash
>>site. The cameraman was the person who sold Ray Santilli twenty-
>>two rolls of 16mm film showing the dissection of a creature of
>>unknown origin and the debris of its crashed craft.

>>We were revisiting the site to gather information that might
>>answer questions elicited during the previous discussion of this
>>topic on the Updates list and to explore the site in greater
>>detail.

>>Is there evidence of cristobalite on the sand and gravel at the
>>site?

>>Yes.

>I find it very interesting and tell-tale that you do not say
>that the 'cristobalite' (in semi-quoted because you cannot
>diagnose cristobalite by mere sight)

Ray,

I didn't diagnose cristobalite by sight. I used XRD. The
material covering (fused to) the sand and dirt at the site is
the same material as the material I had tested and the same
material that I sent you. This material is covering the sand and
dirt the same way that it covers the rhyolite on your sample.

>was actually fused to the
>top of the sand or dirt -- which it would have to be to even
>begin to suggest there is anything to the case you're trying to
>make.

Fused is fine with me, but I've used "covered" before and you
didn't complain.

>Come on, Ed. Show me a sample of the 'cristobalite' fused to
>sand or soil. :)

I'll send you a photo when they're developed, but no more
samples for you until I see some change in attitude.


>At the temperature (and time period) required
>to form cristobalite, it would have to display fusion with the
>substrate of sand or soil out of which (according to your story)
>it would have been formed.

The cristobalite did not form from the sand and dirt at the
site. It was formed from sand and oxygen picked up by the vortex
of the disabled craft and then deposited at the site during the
impact and crash, as though the cristobalite was dropped or
sprayed on the site from above.

>Your wording seems designed to try and make us think that is
>what you're saying, but it clearly is not what you are saying.
>If such fusion were present, you know very well you'd actually
>say it!

If I knew exactly how this occurred, I'd say so, but I don't. At
this point, I can only surmise. But I think a smart fellow like
you could figure it out in no time if you'd visit the site.

>You've done that kind of thing again and again in your
>declarations about your 'site', and those of us who can think
>beyond our noses are getting pretty sick of it by now.

Maybe you could give me and the list an example of what you're
talking about. I have been very careful about what I've
reported. There are no exaggerations or deceptions.

>>We found several areas where the sand and gravel were >
>covered with cristobalite.

>Yes! :) Maybe covered with some broken crystalline material, but
>evidently not fused (judging by your not actually saying so) to
>the sand or dirt!

Sorry but the cristobalite is covering (fused to, if you want)
the sand and dirt. There is no confusion about this. These are
large mats of material and not "broken crystalline material".

>Your wish to 'take us in' is showing, Ed. Quit
>trying to mislead us by what you do not say but hope we read
>into your statements! You surely must know your statements could
>easily be misleading!

I didn't realize they were misleading. I'll try to correct this
in the future.

>Lay off the intellectually dishonest reporting, or quit posting
>such crap.

Someday, hopefully soon, I'll be taking interested folks to the
site to see all this for themselves. Do you think I'd put myself
in this position, if I were trying to create a hoax or resorted
to "dishonest reporting"? My description of the site is honest
and accurate.

>You know, Ed, I'm very much into the study of meteorites, and
>from those studies I know that the time since crystals were
>formed is rather easily to determine by, e.g., Sm-Nd ratio, Rb-
>Sr ratio, or other similar (as most appropriate to an individual
>case) isotopic-ratio analyses. Such techniques could be done on
>any samples you have, and if you had even a 'fraction of a gram'
>of intellectual honesty you would have at least one such test
>done on that 'cristobalite' from the site before you go
>screaming your I-wanna-believe head off about that stuff being
>formed during a UFO crash in 1947.

You have a sample and should test it yourself if you think I'm
wrong. I'm not spending another dime of my own money.

<snip>

>So, Ed, if you assert that you 'cristobalite' was formed in 1947
>and are going to get by with that in the minds or real
>scientists, sans at least one isotopic test to determine how
>long ago those crystals (whatever their types might be) were
>formed, then think again!

After you visit the site, we can discuss what tests are still
needed and how we're going to pay for them.

>Put evidence where your mouth is, or cease the wide-eyed
>believer propaganda! It's up to you, the believer, to have such
>a test done, so don't go asking me to fool around trying to
>prove or disprove your, at this point, 'cock and bull' story.

You have all the evidence you need, right before your short-
sighted eyes.

Ed







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                 Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:52:55 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 18:09:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Gehrman


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:57:34 +0100
>Subject: Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update

>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:30:34 -0800
>>Subject: Cameraman's Crash Site Update

>>Cameraman's crash site update

>>On October 23, my wife, brother and I visited the dry lakebed
>>ten miles southwest Socorro known to us as the cameraman's crash
>>site. The cameraman was the person who sold Ray Santilli twenty-
>>two rolls of 16mm film showing the dissection of a creature of
>>unknown origin and the debris of its crashed craft.

>>We were revisiting the site to gather information that might
>>answer questions elicited during the previous discussion of this
>>topic on the Updates list and to explore the site in greater
>>detail.

>To Ed and all,

>The previous discussion on the List seems seems to me to have
>completely ruled out the finding of cristobalite as a "proof"
>that a ufo crashed there, thanks to Ray Stanford.

>I did not follow your discussion closely,

Gildas,

If you had followed the discussion more closely, you would have
realized that Ray has proved nothing about anything except that
he has a closed-minded and dogmatic view of the Alien Autopsy
and all information connected to it. He has made some excellent
contributions to the discussion, but no evidence that refutes my
findings.


>but after the recent
>debate on the Rawin target, I feel obliged to note that, as soon
>as a discussion seems to end about a dubious tale, another one
>pops up. There is no end to that game, so it seems.

Why don't you say what you mean?

>I read again recently the story of the search of that site made
>by Michael Hesemann, in his book "Beyond Roswell", written with
>Philip Mantle. It gave me a strong impression that he and his
>friends had been manipulated all the way (see pages 215 to
>220).

Maybe Philip or Steve K can comment.

>First by Ray Santilli giving him the the map of the camaraman,
>then by a providential DNA agent whom they met at their hotel,
>who confirmed the crash site ! And later, he followed them and
>watched them with binoculars as they inspected the site. They
>found "traces" on the ground which looked suspicious to a member
>of the party, Ted Loman, who said: "If you ask me, it looks very
>suspicious", according to Hesemann. I can imagine the agent
>writing his report: "Fine, they have found the spot we had
>prepared for them".

The site they found wasn't the same site I found. I have visited
the site they found and it doesn't meet the cameraman's criterion.

>Sorry, Ed, but I don't believe the story. And I don't believe
>the camaraman's story either.

That's fine with me. But perhaps you haven't been paying enough
attention.

Ed







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              Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:36:41 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 18:15:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Boone


>From: Jerome Beau <jbeau@noos.fr>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 19:55:41 +0100
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>To: UFO
>>UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 23:00:58 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>Hello John, the list,

>>If this was a genuine case as Jerry believes (...) it would
>>have been proved long ago, as surely there would have been no
>>shortage of witnesses (...) and we would have had their names
>>and statements long since, inasmuch as Trindade is one of the
>>most publicized UFO cases of all time, the subject of
>>inquiries by journalists, military officers, government
>>officials, ufologists, and debunkers. Nearly five decades
>>after the case surfaced, NOT ONE independent witness has
>>stepped forward to say that something happened.

>Maybe one reason why we didn't get more witnesses info (names,
>statements) is stated in the "F=F4lha da Manh=F1" of S=E3o Paulo,
>issue on February 21, 1958 :

>"The School_Ship is at anchor off Rio de Janeiro Bay and we have
>learned that the crew is forbidden to talk to reporters,
>according to severe orders especially issued."

>Indeed, we have to keep in mind that nearly all witnesses were
>military people submitted to such orders. Non-military witnesses
>were the known witnesses (Barauna, Filho, Viegas).


>Hope this helps,

>Jerome


Wait one dad-gummed minute! This incident took place in the late
50's in Brazil?

Well bust my suspenders if I don't have an army of relatives and
friends from down there including a pal here in Los Angeles
whose dad was head of the Brazillian air force during those
days.

I just recalled!

I asked him about UFOs and he was like, "So what? We're fighting
criminals more than UFOs". Also, a girlfriend of mine is a
famous model from Brazil who's family I believe owns airlines
there. I'll ask her.

I remember Sao Paolo because I have a cousin from there here in
church with me. He's an important chap there and I'll shoot this
past him because I recall back in the 80's a major UFO flap down
them parts.


Best,

Greg







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             Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:31:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 07:07:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Beau <jbeau@noos.fr>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 19:55:41 +0100
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>To: UFO
>>UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 23:00:58 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>>If this was a genuine case as Jerry believes (...) it would
>>have been proved long ago, as surely there would have been no
>>shortage of witnesses (...) and we would have had their names
>>and statements long since, inasmuch as Trindade is one of the
>>most publicized UFO cases of all time, the subject of
>>inquiries by journalists, military officers, government
>>officials, ufologists, and debunkers. Nearly five decades
>>after the case surfaced, NOT ONE independent witness has
>>stepped forward to say that something happened.

>Maybe one reason why we didn't get more witnesses info (names,
>statements) is stated in the "F=F4lha da Manh=F1" of S=E3o Paulo,
>issue on February 21, 1958 :

>"The School_Ship is at anchor off Rio de Janeiro Bay and we have
>learned that the crew is forbidden to talk to reporters,
>according to severe orders especially issued."

>Indeed, we have to keep in mind that nearly all witnesses were
>military people submitted to such orders. Non-military witnesses
>were the known witnesses (Barauna, Filho, Viegas).

This is fair comment. Of course, it also helps to explain why
the famous 'negative witness' has failed to turn up after all
these years!

However, it would appear that even the Brazilian Navy
investigation of the case seems to have been unable to turn up
the name of any serving member of the crew who actually saw the
event. In fact this caused a member of the Brazilian federal
parliament to complain that the investigation was inadequate.

At one point a Brazilian military spokesman is quoted as saying
that the military had no reason to prevent crew from talking
about the incident, and it does seem that reporters had access
to the ship and crew when in docked.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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                 Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:42:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 07:21:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Kaeser


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:52:55 -0800
>Subject: Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update

<snip>

>>I read again recently the story of the search of that site made
>>by Michael Hesemann, in his book 'Beyond Roswell', written with
>>Philip Mantle. It gave me a strong impression that he and his
>>friends had been manipulated all the way (see pages 215 to
>>220).

>Maybe Philip or Steve K can comment.

Since my name has been brought up.....

I think the impression that everyone was manipulated by Ray
Santilli is an honest one, but that doesn't prove that the
'film' was a complete hoax. I visited the site that Bob Shell
and Michael Hesemann had identified as the alleged crash site
and spoke with both about it on a number of occasions. While it
was intriguing, it didn't actually fit the cameraman's
description of where it was if you take his 'Statement'
literally. A couple of the pictures that I took at the 'site'
were in Beyond Roswell, but that certainly doesn't lend to its
credibility as a crash site.

This being said, I've had a couple of messages from Bob Shell in
the last couple of years regarding the site that you've
identified, and he doesn't believe that its correct. Bob spent a
number of weeks going through that part of New Mexico, along
with ufologists from Arizona. I believe he also thinks that he's
located the crash site, but without more provenance for the
cameraman's images it really doesn't mean anything. Ray Santilli
has ruined his own story through his actions, whether they were
unavoidable or not.

>>First by Ray Santilli giving him the the map of the camaraman,
>>then by a providential DNA agent whom they met at their hotel,
>>who confirmed the crash site ! And later, he followed them and
>>watched them with binoculars as they inspected the site. They
>>found 'traces' on the ground which looked suspicious to a member
>>of the party, Ted Loman, who said: 'If you ask me, it looks very
>>suspicious', according to Hesemann. I can imagine the agent
>>writing his report: "Fine, they have found the spot we had
>>prepared for them."

>The site they found wasn't the same site I found. I have visited
>the site they found and it doesn't meet the cameraman's criterion.

This is true, but to change the general opinion of most people
you'll need more than unusual mineral traces from an alleged
crash site supported only by an artist's conception of a
description transmitted through Ray Santilli.

I believe that Ray has always held the key to unraveling this
mystery. I don't know of Philip would have anything further to
add, but most of the original researchers have dropped their
interest in the AA 'film'.


Steve







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   Nov > Nov 4

                  Roswell UFO Museum To 'Do Our Own Thing'

From: Louise A. Lowry <ShnSassy1@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:38:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 07:26:23 -0500
Subject: Roswell UFO Museum To 'Do Our Own Thing'


Source: The Roswell Daily Record


http://www.roswell-record.com/archives/103103/news07.html

UFO museum to 'do our own thing' this July, director says

Lisa Ridgely
Record Staff Writer

Despite an invitation to head up a revamped UFO Festival
oversight organization, the International UFO Museum and
Research Center has announced plans to instead host its own
event next July.

The Roswell Chamber of Commerce has given up sole sponsorship of
the fest to make way for the formation of a new oversight
organization, one the International UFO Museum and Research
Center wants no part of.

Julie Shuster, the museum's director, said she knows she could
lead a successful UFO-themed event, because she has, and she
will again next year =E2=C7" separately from the UFO Festival.

"No, I am not considering it and I told them that," she said.

The chamber's Board of Directors unanimously voted Tuesday to
"relinquish sole sponsorship" of the Roswell UFO Festival, and
to encourage the formation of a new entity to organize it.
Previously, the chamber ran a festival committee, chaired by a
board member, which served as the organizing entity.

"We're trying to be as inclusive as possible this year," said
CEO Shawn Hughes. A new organization would "add a new level of
cooperation between all of the entities, including the UFO
museum," but also the RCC, the Roswell Hispano Chamber of
Commerce, the Roswell Convention and Civic Center, the Roswell
Visitors Center, Roswell Parks and Recreation, MainStreet
Roswell and Roswell Runners Club.

A press release from the chamber Wednesday quoted Hughes saying
the International UFO Museum has the expertise and audience
necessary to be the leader in such a group and put on a
successful festival.

"The central player in this organization would hopefully be the
UFO Museum," he said in the release. "If I were visiting Roswell
for the first time, I'd be inclined to head to the Museum first.
That makes them an ideal choice for a leadership position in
this new entity."

But the museum has other intentions.

Plans have been in the works for a while, Shuster said, for the
Roswell UFO Event 2004, which will be held July 1-5 at the
museum and the civic center. With a focus on the serious and
educational aspects of the Roswell Incident and other UFO
phenomenon, it won't be much different from what the museum has
done in previous years, she said.

"The museum has always done their own thing," she said. "This
year what we are doing is expanding but focusing on what we do
and what we have always done. ... We've taken a different
direction and are going to do our own thing."

Chamber president J.P. Cheney said Thursday the board decision
was made in an attempt to unify the organizations involved in
the festival's planning process, and that Shuster's reaction was
puzzling.

"I understand her position ... I don't know why they're choosing
to do it the way they're doing it," he said. "I certainly would
hope they would welcome the event for everybody."

Shuster says that by concentrating on the more serious,
scientific aspects of UFO phenomenon, the museum is sticking to
what it knows and what it does best =E2=C7" and they know their
audience. The UFO Festival has "become a carnival, or a side-
show," she said, "and that's not what the museum's all about."

The people who come to the UFO fest also want "some kind of UFO
entertainment," Cheney said. "That's what runs her museum, is
the alien fluff that everyone buys. ... They come here for that
=E2=C7=FFcarnival' atmosphere. Those people who come for the carnival
are the ones that finance her shop."

The museum's first priority is to recognize the Roswell
Incident, she said, the reported 1947 UFO crash that put the
town of Roswell on the world map, drawing visitors here year-
round.

Shuster plans to announce the event schedule, which may feature
an astronaut as a special guest, sometime in January.

"All I'm going to do is worry about what's in the best interest
of this museum," she said.

The museum's decision may be a mistake, Hughes said, because the
proposed new organization could be advantageous to "them and all
of us. I'm still going to continue to urge them to rethink their
position."


--
World Of The Strange http://www.worldofthestrange.com
Para-Discussion List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Para-Discuss/






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   Nov > Nov 4

                          Re: Re: Trindade - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 00:18:34 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 07:29:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: Trindade - Sparks



http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m02-002.shtml

>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:12:49 -0300
>Subject: Trindade


>Hi,

>This question has already been pointed before on this List
>(actually, it was on this List that I first read about it), but
>I would like to point out again the question of the apparent
>uncanny similarity of the image of the Trindade Island UFO on
>photos 1 and 2 (inverted):

>http://www.strbrasil.com/ca/trindadehoax.htm

>Yes, I'm using copies of copies (of maybe copies) of the
>originals. Even then, the similarity is something curious.

>Also, I would like to indicate again the article by Martin
>Powell:

>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mjpowell/Trindade/Trindade.htm

>Powell itself used versions of the photos published on a book.
>Even then, the similarity is something curious. More curious if
>we presume that the casual degradation of the versions I used,
>and that he used, should be different.

>Then, I would like to indicate the superb and detailed work
>about the case by Luis Noguez (available on-line, in Spanish):

>http://www.strbrasil.com/ca/noguez_trindade00.htm


Hi Ken,

Why are you referring to these outrageous debunking attacks,
especially Noguez's as "superb and detailed" and "excellent" (as
you state on your website)?? Noguez's is the most appalling I
have ever seen - he wants to have the Trindade photos hoaxed by
THREE HOAXING METHODS at the same time - montage AND double-
 exposure AND photography of cloud-vapor covered aircraft
SIMULTANEOUSLY!! You can't have all three hoaxing techniques at
the same time, or at the same time in this particular case
(montage and double exposure are simply physically inconsistent
and mutually exclusive). Even the infamous CSICOP would not dare
to propound such Menzelian pseudoscience, though debunkers do
tend to operate on the principle that several bad explanations
are better than having no good single explanation. Anti-UFO
pseudoscience is matched only by the pro-UFO pseudoscience of
GSW which still gets cited as if legitimate even after the
scandalous Calgary photos blunder years ago exposed it all as a
sham - why not cite George Adamski as a serious photoanalyst??

If Noguez had any scientific understanding of optical physics
and photography he would realize that it is physically
impossible to make a double exposure darker than the surrounding
sky - you cannot subtract light in a double exposure you can
only add light! It is a fundamental fact of science and math,
addition is not subtraction (C. B. Moore please take note!). So
far he has successfully hidden behind the Spanish language so
that English language analysts generally remain unaware of these
scientifically absurd claims and thus haven't taken them apart.

As for the "similarity" of Trindade Photos 1 and 2 when
inverted, you admit they are not identical, just "similar."
Therefore the debunker hoax theory that the photographer took
tiny little pieces of film-emulsion with identical copy images
of a hoaxed UFO only about 1/10 inch (2 mm) in size and stupidly
pasted one upside down by accident onto photos of Trindade
island background is exploded as utter nonsense. The images are
not identical, upside down or not, so they are not some kind of
hoaxer paste-up error.

And all this photo-montage pasting would have had to be done in
a hurried hoax while inside a makeshift darkroom aboard the
Brazilian Navy ship just minutes after the UFO sighting without
any "UFO" being sighted. And then the hoaxed UFO images would
have to pass muster with the Navy witnesses to the UFO (when
there wasn't a "UFO" ??) who were shown the freshly developed
photos by the Trindade post commander immediately afterwards and
who confirmed it looked like what they saw (didn't see??). In
bright light on deck in mid-day with everyone staring at the UFO
images on the negatives anything looking like pieces of film
with fake UFO images glued on top of each island scene photo
would have been glaringly obvious.

From the classified CONFIDENTIAL intelligence report of March 3,
1958, of Fleet Adm. Antonio Maria de Carvalho, Chief of the
Brazilian Naval High Command, to the Navy Minister, prepared by
intelligence officer Corvette-Capt. Jose Geraldo Brandao
(emphasis added):


viii. Afterwards, the negatives referred to were shown to
members of the SHIP'S CREW who had witnessed the phenomenon;
they RECOGNIZED THE OBJECT appearing in the photos as identical
with the one they had sighted in the air;

xi. A strong emotional upset was observed in all persons who
SIGHTED the object, including the photographer, civilians and
members of the SHIP'S CREW.


I have measured what appears to be rapid rotational motion at
the extreme edges of the object, amounting to something on the
order of 400 to 800 degs/sec around a central axis, and the
angular velocity of rotation changes from photo to photo (hence
my 400 to 800 degs/sec figures). Thus in the approximately 2
seconds between photos estimated by reenactments conducted by
the Brazilian Air Force with the photographer, the UFO could
very easily have flipped over 180 degrees.

Sorry Ken, the UFO was reported wobbling in flight and my
analysis shows it was displaying very extreme rotational motion,
so it simply must have wobbled so far it flipped over. So it
should look similar but not identical - due to differing object
motion blur and differing atmospheric haze between Photos 1 and
2 - and should look upside down. The photos show the UFO turned
upside down so that is what happened - the object turned upside
down.

By the way Sunderland went on board the Brazilian Navy ship
after it docked hoping to confirm it was all a hoax - and was
discombobulated to find that the Navy officers he talked to
confirmed that the UFO incident did occur. Sunderland tried to





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                   Re: Humanoids Without Saucers - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 00:06:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 07:33:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Humanoids Without Saucers - Colvin


FWD: [fantasticreality] Humanoids Without Saucers: Revisionist
thoughts on "Close Encounters III"

[Where is the evidence, the bodies of these supernatural
creatures? What portion is inside the head and what portion is
outside the head. Where does false memory syndrome and the
manipulative dissociative identify disorder, formerly called
multiple personality disorder, fit in with all this? - twc]


Dear Listmates and fellow Forteans,

In the 1950's and 1960's, even long before abduction reports
became so common, many people  reported seeing strange
humanoids. Often, they reported seeing the entities in
connection with landed or hovering UFO's. In other cases,
however, no unusual craft or vehicle was in fact mentioned by
the witness(es). Several such saucerless creature sightings have
become classic "UFO occupant" cases, repeated in countless UFO
books as well-known "Close Encounters of the Third Kind." This
seems to be the case, for instance, with the often-cited
humanoid sightings at Branch Hill (Ohio) and Stockton (Georgia)
in 1955, and near Globe (Arizona) in 1960, as well as with the
somewhat less celebrated Renton (Washington) humanoid encounter
of 1965.

At 4 AM early one morning in March, 1955, Robert Hunnicutt of
Loveland, Ohio (a town near Cincinnati noted later for the
"Loveland Frog" of the 1970's), was driving over a bridge near
Branch Hill, Ohio on his way to Loveland when he saw 3 small
"men" about 3 feet tall, grayish in color with froglike faces,
kneeling by the roadside. He stopped his car because he thought
someone was hurt and needed help. One of the creatures held a
dark chain or stick giving off bluish-white sparks between his
raised arms. When Hunnicutt got out of his car one of the "men"
moved as if signaling him to stay where he was. So, Hunnicutt
just watched for about three minutes. The next thing he knew, he
was driving toward the Loveland police station, making him feel
he "must have lost consciousness," in an interesting
anticipation of the "missing time" element of so many later
abduction reports. [Coral and Jim Lorenzen, _Flying Saucer
Occupants_. (New York: New American Library, "Signet Books,"
1967), pp. 121-122; Jacques Vallee, _Passport to Magonia_
(Chicago: Henry Regnery, 1969), Case 361, p. 248; Coral
Lorenzen, "UFO Occupants in the United States," in Charles
Bowen, ed., _The Humanoids_ (Chicago:Henry Regnery, 1969), p.
150; Leonard H. Stringfield, _Situation Red! The UFO Siege_ (New
York:Fawcett Crest, 1977), pp. 115-116; Janet and Colin Bord,
_Unexplained Mysteries of the 20th Century_ (Chicago:
Contemporary Books, 1989), p. 151]

A few months later that year, at 3:30 AM in the early morning of
July 3, Mrs. Margaret Symmonds of Cincinnati, Ohio was driving
her family car to Florida when she saw 4 small figures in her
headlights on the road ahead of her, which at first she took for
pigs. Coming closer, she saw that they were "bug-eyed" little
"men" 3 =BD or 4 feet tall, gray in color and wearing capes,
huddled in the road as if about to dig into it with a stick one
of them was holding. One of the humanoids stepped aside to get
out of her way, and looked right at her. He had a roundish head,
with a slouch hat or cap on, huge eyes like saucers reflecting
red, a long pointed nose, a small mouth, a sharp pointed chin,
and long thin arms with claws, and short legs. His body was
hidden by the cape. Mrs. Symmonds swerved past the dwarfs, then
screamed out in fear, waking up her husband who was sleeping in
the back of the car. When she told hom what she had seen, he
wanted to go back, but she refused.[Lorenzen and Lorenzen,
_Flying Saucer Occupants_, p. 121; Vallee, _Passport to
Magonia_, Case 365, pp. 249-250; Lorenzen, "UFO Occupants in the
United States," in Bowen, ed., _The Humanoids_, pp. 149-150;
Stringfield, _Situation Red!_, pp.110-111; Bord and Bord,
_Unexplained Mysteries of the 20th Century_, pp. 150-151]

Five years later, another weird dwarf humanoid was seen late at
night along a roadside in Arizona by yet another startled
motorist. One night in June 1960, a woman personally known to
APRO director Coral Lorenzen was driving her family Cadillac,
her husband and children asleep in the car, to California.
Around midnight, about 15 miles east of Globe, Arizona, she saw
a small, dark figure about 3 feet tall standing on the right
side of the road, as if about to cross. It turned to face her as
she slowed down, then ran off into the brush. "The second I saw
that thing my heart came up into my mouth and my stomach did a
flip-flop," she recalled. The figure had broad shoulders, long
arms, a flattened globular pumpkin- shaped head, and two glowing
yellowish-orange eyes. When the dwarf was in side view, the
witness saw a light beaming out beyond its face. She could not
see the body clearly, but got an impression of hair or fur. Like
Mrs. Symmonds' husband, this witness' husband also wanted to go
back, but she wisely refused. As in the 1955 night-time roadside
sightings by Mr. Hunnicutt in Branch Hill and Mrs. Symmonds in
Stockton, the 1960 Globe, Arizona witness did not report seeing
any unusual craft or vehicle. [Coral Lorenzen and Lorenzen,
_Flying Saucer Occupants_, pp. 128-129; Lorenzen, "UFO Occupants
in the United States," in Bowen, ed., _The Humanoids_, pp. 159-
160; Bord and Bord, _Unexplained Mysteries of the 20th Century_,
pp. 152-153]

Two girls near Renton, Washington reportedly saw three non-
human-appearing "men" one morning in August, 1965, according to
a story in _Saucer News_, which did not give newspaper
attribution--but Coral Lorenzen and APRO were also tipped off
about this sighting by other sources. Around 7:00 or 7:30 AM on
August 13, Ellen G. Ryerson (16) and her sister Laura  got out
of their car on a highway near Renton to work in a bean field
when they were approached by three "men" from the bean field.
The beings were about 1.6 meters (a little over 5 feet) tall,
with white-domed heads, protruding eyes "gray like stone," large
pores, and expressionless, deeply tanned faces. They wore
sleeveless V-necked purple jerseys over white shirts. The
frightened girls ran about 50 feet past the "men," and when they
looked back the beings had disappeared.  As Coral Lorenzen
noted, "No craft was seen in connection with this incident"--
which nevertheless got written up in _Saucer News_ and then in
her own article on "UFO Occupants in the United States," as well
as in _Flying Saucer Review_ [Bowen, ed. _The Humanoids_, p.
169; Vallee, _Passport to Magonia_, Case 678. P. 313, citing
_Flying Saucer Review_, 66, 2]

The Branch Hill, Stockton, and Globe sightings, especially, have
gone down in the UFO literature as classic "Close Encounters
III"--despite no mysterious craft actually being reported. Some
Fortean and UFO writers, indeed, have themselves been aware of
this paradox and its potential problems for interpretation.
Thus, Janet and Colin Bord prefaced their discussion of the
Branch Hill, Stockton, and Globe encounters by remarking that
"Quite a lot of the non-human entities reported sound similar to
the entities seen close to landed UFO's" but admitting that "on
these occasions the witness sees nu UFO, so there is no
certainty that the entities came from a UFO." Indeed, the Bords
felt, "it is difficuklt to be certain of anything with cases
like these" as "all we have to go on are the witness reports."
However, the Stockton entities seen by Mrs. Symmonds "were
engaged in that kind of puzzling, inconsequential activity which
UFO entities often seem to demonstrate," though "Mrs. Symmands
saw no UFO, only the entities" [_Unexplained Mysteries of the
20th Century_, p. 150.) On the other hand, the Lorenzens
admitted that the June 1960 Globe, Arizona sighting "deals with
a little man although there is no craft involved (_Flying Saucer
Occupants_, p. 128). Stressing "the veracity of the observer and
her husband's verification of her near-hysteria," and the close
resemblance of the Globe "entity" to the "little men" seen near
landed UFO's in Venezuela in 1954, Coral Lorenzen felt that
"despite the absence of a visible craft, the other three points
make this incident acceptable, in my opinion, as a `UFO
occupant' sighting" ["UFO Occupants in the United States," pp.
160-161]. However, she also headed her summary of the Ryerson
girls' 1965 Renton, Waashington bean field encounter "Entities--
but no vehicle," ending with the observation that "No craft was
seen in connection with this incident" [_ibid._, p.  169].

The 1950's and early 1960's were a time when an
"extraterrestrial spaceman" or "Martian" interpretation seemed
the self-evidently obvious explanation for any strange humanoid,
more so than at any time earlier or later. The late 1940's, when
the "flying saucers" hit the headlines in the wake of Kenneth
Arnold's June 1947 Mount Rainier sighting of nine flying
whaisits, and the July 1947 crash of an Air Force spy balloon--
or *SOMETHING ELSE*?!--near Roswell NM, were the perfect time to
launch a popular mythos of technologically advanced visitors--
perhaps even invaders--from the skies/ Er had jusr finished one
war very largely fought with massive air power, climaxing in the
atomic power of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We had won World War II-
-but were now entering a "Cold War" with out former Soviet ally,
armed with who knew what secret high-tech super-weapons captured
from our and their former Nazi enemies--a "Cold War" that might
become all too "hot" any day. Atomic war with our former Russian
allioes was a real possibility. We were also entering the "Space
Age," when real-life interplanetary travel within lifetime of
many people then living was a serious possibility for the first
time in history. Reputable "mainstream" popular magazines,
quoting savants like Werner von Braun, Hermann Oberth, Willy
Ley, and Arthur C. Clarke, and not just science-fiction "pulps"
with lurid covers, published lavishly illustrated articles on
how we would build orbiting space stations, and trach the Moon
and Mars, before the end of the 20th century. The cumulative
evidence of all these developments was to make extraterrestrial
visits to Earth seem a real, serious possibility to a large
segment of the general public--and the most obvious explanation
of various curious celestial phenomena.

All these social and cul;tural circumstances, well in place by
1947, only continued and deepened in the 1950's and early
1960's. The Soviet Sputnik launching, and America's commitment
to a "Space Race" with the Russians, made the Space Age
officially part of the "real world" rather than "science-
 fiction." Space exploration enthusiasts like von Braun, Oberth,
Ley, and Clarke now seemed like true prophets more than ever.
The Cold War Communist threat, not realistically likely to go
away in the lifetime of anybody then living, made many of us all
the more willing to seriously consider the possibility of
*OTHER*, more comic, threats and subversions as well.

The UFO phenomenon, too, obligingly "escalated" itself. The
George Adamski type "contactees" were an easily dismissible
laughingstock, whom serious UFO researchers hated and despised
for making a serious mystery look ridiculous. However, there
were also the less easily dismissed reports, beginning to
proliferate in the mid-1950's, of furtive or even aggressive
dwarfish humanoid UFO occupants, who seemed more likely to just
possibly be the extraterrestrial "real thing" than the
contactees'benevolent, handsome "Space Brothers" spouting
pacifist, Theosophist, and "New Age" platitudes. In 1954-1955,
especially, the media were saturated with stories of bizarre
dwarf humanoids seen in conjunction with "flying saucers" by
dozens or scores of seemingly reliable witnesses in Europe--
especially France, Italy, and Belgium--and South America. In the
good old USA itself, too, the Sutton farmhouse between Kelly and
Hopkinsville, Kentucky, was besieged by aggressive, grotesque-
looking "little men" from a landed "flying saucer" on the night
of August 22, 1955.

Robert Hunnicutt and Margaret Symmonds did not actually see any
"flying saucers" at Branch Hill or Syockton in 1955. However,
they saw mysterious dwarfish humanoids very similar to those so
frequently encountered near "saucers" in Kentucky, South
America, France, and Italy. The same was true, a few years
later, of the pumpkin-headed dwarf seen by Coral Lorenzen's
friend near Globe, Arizona in 1960--and of the three men"
encountered in the Renton, Washington bean field by the Ryersin
sisters in 1965. No "saucer" was actually seen--but they seemed
so similar to familiar "saucer" creatures. Norging seemed more
obvious or natural than to lump together the Branch Hill,
Stockton, Globe, or Renton reports with cases where somewhat
similar creatures were seen in conjunction with "saucers"!

Also, there were fewer non-extraterrestrial interpretations of
strange humanoids available to the general public, or even to
Fortean and paranormalist writers, in the 1950's and early
1960's than we have at our disposal now. The "ET" hypothesis
seemed to be the "only game in town" aside from debunking
skepticism. For one thing, we should recall, in the 1950's and
1960's the general public was far less "cryptid"-conscious than
is the case now, when books, articles, and websites on Bigfoot,
"Lake Monsters," Chupacabras, the West Virginia "Mothman," "big
cats," "mystery pumas," "Black Dogs,""frog-man," "reptile-men,"
and scores of other "mystery beasts" and "alien animals" compete
in the popular "true weird mysteries" market with those on UFO's
and abductions. Aside from a few pioneering proto-
cryptozoologists like Willy Ley, Bernard Heuvelmans, and Ivan
Sanderson, most people in the 1950's only knew about the
Himalayan "Abominable Snowman" and Scotland's "Nessie," maybe
also vague recollections of supposedly real-life 18th and 19th
century "sea serpent" sightings--joined in the late 1950's by
Bigfoot.

Likewise, the paraphysical, "psychic," "metaphysical," occult,
other-dimensional, and "ultraterrestrial" theories of UFO's,
aliens, and "cryptids" popularized by writers like John A. Keel
and Jacques Vallee wouldn't come into fashion until the late
1960's and early 1970', with Vallee's _Passport to Magonia_
(1969) and Keel's ._Strange Creatures from Time and Space_
(1970) and _UFO's: Operation Trojan Horse_ (1970). Keel and
Vallee, followed by other writers in the 1970's and 1980's,
popularized the theory that modern encounters UFO's, "aliens,"
Bigfoot, and "Lake Monsters"might reflect a contemporary
manifestation of the entities or phenomena underlying
yesteryear's trolls, gnomes, fairies, elves, leprechauns, jinn,
angels, and demons. However, it just didn't occur to anybody in
the 1950's and early 1960's that our planet might be teeming
with all sorts of "little people," "otherfolk," "frog-men," and
"lizard-men" as long-standing features of our environment, such
as Forteans have become more familiar with in more recent post-
Keel, post-Vallee decades.

Cryptozoologist Loren Coleman has linked occult and
"metaphysical" theories linking Bigfoot to UFO's and aliens, and
Bigfoot, UFO's, and aliens alike to ghosts, spirits, demons,
fairies, and other- dimensional visitors, to the general
cultural and social "high strangeness" of the 1960's and 1970's
in _Bigfoot: The True Story of Apes in America_ (New York:
Paraview and Simon & Schuster, 2003). Coleman's main focus is
Bigfoot and similar "mystery primates," but his historical
sketch of theories about them is equally applicable to the
history of theories about other "mystery critters." Coleman is
skeptical of such, occult or paraphysical, or other-dimensional
theories connecting Bigfoot UFO's, aliens, ghosts, and spirits.
For him, Bigfoot is a real flesh-and-blood animal of an unknown
biological species, not a ghost, spirit, psychic projection,
thought-form, space alien, or visitor from the "fourth
dimension." He flatly declares (_Bigfoot!_, p. 177): "And just
in case you are wondering, no, I don't think Bigfoot come from
UFO's or the collective unconscious."However, he notes the
popularity of such theories, and devotes a chapter on "High
Strangeness" to examining them. Such theories, he notes,
originated and proliferated in the 1960's and 1970's, a period
of general social and cultural "high strangeness." Almost all
the UFO-related Bigfoot cases, he shows, can be linked to those
times of "high strangeness," the researchers who emerged at that
time, and the often-cited books and cases from those days.
Coleman notes that he has placed "some of the 1970's Bigfoot
reports, for the first time, in a cultural and temporal
context," as the "significant point" he is "attempting to make"
in _Bigfoot!_(Loren Coleman private e- mail to T. Peter Park,
September 24, 2003).

Bigfoot, Coleman observes, is not only  "a creature of the
wild," but also "often what people want to make of it--and it
was certainly so during one recent period of high
strangeness.".In the 1960's, he notes, "we all woke up and found
the world had grown decidedly weirder," with "the antiwar,
peace, and hippie movements," the "music revolution and new
sexual freedoms," the "breakdown of the Eisenhower doldrums and
the shock of the JFK assassinations," "the Beatles and Vietnam"
(_Bigfoot!_, p. 170). "Something" happened "that changed us
all," and "it altered the landscape of Bigfoot studies too."
=46rom "the Patterson-Gimlin film to the Minnesota Iceman," a
"hint of this bizarre new age was in the air." It was era when
"several threads of the inexplicable overlapped, danced about
together, and merged," when "Bigfoot met UFO's, cattle
mutilations, and other bizarre imports from the world of the
paranormal." It was, Coleman feels, "an unfortunate marriage
that still scars the field" of Bigfoot research. "Most
unfortunate of all" was "the mix of UFO's and Bigfoot" (p. 170).

Coleman quotes Ufologist Jerome Clark, who noted in his _High
Strangeness: UFO's from 1960 through 1979_ (Detroit:
Omnigraphics, 1996) that this was a period when people spoke
"falsely or sincerely" of seeing "hairy bipeds" in conjunction
with UFO's (_Bigfoot!_, p. 170). In the 1970's, many UFO
researchers--Peter Guttilla in California, Stan Gordon and
Berthold Schwarz in Pennsylvania, APRO director Coral Lorenzen,
Leonard Stringfield, Leo Sprinkle, Barbara Ann Slate, Alan
Berry, Andrew Collins, John S. Derr, R. Martin Wolf, Steven
Mayne, etc.--began discussing what they "saw as the overlapping
nature of Bigfoot and UFO reports...resulting in cleat-cut
Bigfoot accounts appearing in the UFO literature." In New York,
John A. Keel worked together the material he'd gathered in Point
Pleasant, West Virginia in 1966-1967 into his books _Strange
Creatures from Time and Space_ (1970) and _The Mothman
Prophecies_ (1975). In _Strange Creatures_, "typical of the new
wave of paperback books that would capture the mood of the
times," Keel "lumped Bigfoot, dog killings, Mothman, Men-in-
 Black, and UFO's in the same vortex" (_Bigfoot!_, pp. 170-171).

Keel introduced Jerome Clark to Coleman in 1969, and they
"carried on a lively exchange of stories and ideas." Coleman
himself began investigating reports of creatures with glowing
red eyes, such as those as those haunting the cornfields of
Enfield, Illinois, in 1973, while Clark was "digging into
airship reports and exploring fairylore and ufology." By the
mid-1970's, Clark and Coleman coauthored articles merging their
two fields of study, "full of straight data as well as
sociological and psychological assessments," including the "now
rejected Jungian hypothesis" set forth in their _Creatures of
the Outer Edge_ (New York: Warner Books, 1978). Thus, Coleman
"must plead to being partially responsible" himself, with Jerome
Clark, "for the amalgamation of Bigfoot and UFO's, which
happened in this era of `high strangeness'" (_Bigfoot!_, pp.
171-172).

      "But today," Coleman continues (p. 172), "having reclaimed
the firmer zoological and anthropological foundations of
hominology, I reject such notions, as does Clark." In the late
1990's, Clark looked back on the "UFO-Bigfoot connection,"
stating: "These are huge suppositions, tied to small evidence.
At this stage, given the limitations of human knowledge, there
is hardly anything about Hairy Bipeds, or their possible
connection with the UFO phenomena, that can be stated with any
degree of confidence" (quoted in Coleman, _Bigfoot!_, p. 172)..
Coleman himself "would agree wholeheartedly," but also warns,
"let's not toss out the bona fide Bigfoot cases with the UFO
bathwater." The UFO literature, he notes, contains many "alleged
UFO-Bigfoot reports." Australian ufologist Marc Moravec even
published _The UFO-Anthropoid Catalogue_ in 1980, bringing
together a number of these alleged UFO-Bigfoot reports
(_Bigfoot!_, p. 172).

Ultimately, though, Coleman's assessment of UFO-Bigfoot reports
is skeptical. "Many Bigfoot- UFO cases," he believes, can be
"attributed to coincidence, mistakes, and outright hoaxing."
Witnesses of unusual phenomena, Coleman notes, "tend to group
all weird things they experience together, whether related or
not." A "puzzled witness" often "just doesn't know how to
differentiate one mystery event from another." Adding to the
problem, Coleman continues, was "the practice by ufologists in
the 1960's and 1970's of asking witnesses to recall everything
strange that had happened to them in the days before and after
their encounter." This "unfortunate situation," he feels, "
makes separating the valuable Bigfoot case from its UFO
underpinnings problematic at best." (_Bigfoot!_, p. 176) .

There is a less negative converse, however, to the "high
strangeness" theories criticized by Loren Coleman. By suggesting
a possible connection between Bigfoot, UFO's, UFO occupants,
Mothman, and more traditional weirdies like ghosts, demons,
fairies, trolls, and "little people," the "high strangeness"
Fortean writers of the 1960's and 1970's familiarized the
Fortean and paranormalist reading public with the existence of a
surprisingly wide and diverse variety of bizarre humanoid
entities, some of them similar to those reported in UFO "Close
Encounters III," and others closely resembling traditional
folkloric descriptions of fairies, trolls, "little people," and
"merpeople" (mermaids and mermen), described by seemingly
reliable contemporary and recent eyewitnesses. Regardless of how
one explained such entities (as flesh-and-blood biological
creatures presumably sharing a common ultimate evolutionary
ancestry with more familiar animals, or as ghosts, spirits,
angels, demons, "elementals" "thought-forms," "psychic
projections,"temporarily materialized "archetypes" from the
Jungian "Collective Unconscious," or visitors from another
dimension), they seemed like old, quasi-permanent denizens of
our planetary environment, sharing our biosphere with _Homo
sapiens_, who have "always" been here with us all the time for
generations, centuries, or millennia--rather than simply recent
"high-tech" interplanetary or interstellar visitors from Mars,
Alpha Centauri, or Zeta Reticuli! The "high strangeness" writers
brought such creatures to our attention, starting in the late
1960's.

These "mystery creatures" include "merely animalistic" frog-men
and lizard-men who seem natural candidates for the attention of
the cryptozoologists who study Bigfoot, "mystery cars," "Lake
Monsters," and Chupacrabras. However, they also include more
puzzling entities with definite "civilized" or "technological"
traits. One of Robert Hunnicutt's "froglike"March 1955 Branch
Hill dwarfs held a dark stick or chain shooting off bluish-white
sparks.  Margaret Symmonds' July 1955 Stockton "bug- eyed"
little "men" wore clothing, and one of them seemed to be digging
into the ground with some sort of stick. The pumpkin-headed June
1960 Globe, Arizona dwarf showed a light beaming out of its face
when in side view. Ellen and Laura Ryerson's August 1965 Renton,
Washington "men," like Mrs. Symmonds' Stockton dwarves, were
clothed, wearing purple jerseys and white shirts. All this is in
marked contrast to numerous "frog-man" and "lizard-man" reports
with no mention of clothes, tools, weapons, or gadgets.. Thus,
for instance, Robert Hunnicutt's own home town, Loveland, Ohio,
not too far from Branch Hill, was the home of the "Loveland
Frog," a 3- to 5-foot-tall leathery-skinned creature with a
frog-like or lizard-like face seen near the Little Miami River
in Loveland in the 1970's. There were reports of a large frog
living in that river going back to the 1950's, while in 1985 two
boys reportedly saw a frog the size of a big dog by the river.
It has been suggested that the "Loveland Frog" was actually an
iguana, or perhaps a monitor lizard. A "Lizardman" seen in New
Jersey in the 1970's, described as having a towering greenish
scaly body, reptilian face, bulging frog-like eyes, and broad
lipless mouth has also been tentatively identified as a possible
iguana or monitor lizard [Bord and Bord, _Unexplained Mysteries
of the 20th Century_, pp. 246-247, on "Loveland Frog" and New
Jersey "Lizardman"] Both the "Loveland Frog" and the New Jersey
"Lizardman" have been perceived in strictly cryptozoological
terms, with no suggestion of their being extraterrestrials from
a UFO.

Jacques Vallee listed a European "frog-man" encounter from the
1930's in his _Passport to Magonia_ Appendix on UFO landing
reports even though no UFO was mentioned. In the Fall of 1938
(or perhaps 1939), according to a personal communication to
Vallee, two persons saw a strange "frog-man" 1 meter (about 40
inches) tall at Juminda on the Estonian coast. The "frog-man"had
a round head, no neck, and a hump in front of the body. Its
mouth was a large, straight slit, the eyes were like smaller
slits, while its hands were normal. The creature's skin was
brownish-green, compared by the witnesses to pegamoid (a  kind
of plastic or imitation leather). It walked in a peculiar "but
elegant" fashion, its head waving up and down while its legs
moved "carefully." When pursued, the creature accelerated very
fast, with feet "fluttering." About 100 meters (325 feet) away
from the witnesses, it vanished completely. [Vallee, Passport to
Magonia, Case 49, pp. 189-190]. Vallee took it for granted that
the Juminda "frog-man" must have been a UFO occupant, though at
least from his description the creature was no more "civilized"
or "technological" than the "Loveland Frog."

The Juminda "frog-man" resembles grotesque small humanoids seen
by Beryl Hickey and her father at Mandurah, Western Australia,
in their house one night in 1930, and by a man gathering
Christmas trees on December 15, 1956 in woods near Derry, New
Hampshire--in both cases, again with no mention of a UFO.  The
Mandurah creature was about 20 inches tall, glistened as though
wet or covered with oil, and had pink skin, big ears, a wide
slit mouth, bulging eyes covered with a film and "perfectly
formed little hands and feet." It squeaked in fright when the
Hickey father captured and dragged it outside with a prawning
net. The Derry dwarf was green and naked, with a wrinkled skin
resembling elephant hide, a high domed head, ears like a
bloodhound's, eyes with a film like a snake's, merely two holes
for a nose, short arms and legs, hands like stumps, and feet
with no toes. It  a screeched when the witness tried to catch
it. The witness then fled  [Bord and Bord, _Unexplained
Mysteries of the 20th  Century_, pp. 147, 151-152].

Just a few "revisionist thoughts" of mine on "Close Encounter III"
reports!

Best regards,
T. Peter <tpeterpark@erols.com>
Garden City South, LI, NY


-----

"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com






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   Nov > Nov 4

                Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 13:06:26 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:35:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Miller


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:22:16 -0000
>Subject: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files


Andy,

I have now listened to both programmes with very great interest.
I am not in possesion of enough of the detail about the
Rendlesham case to offer any counter arguments. The only comment
I would care to make about the Berwyn Mountain incident was that
it was indeed a bizarre combination of geological coincidences
that seemed to have been produced that night.

My point is this. I think it was you, at the very end of the
programme, who said that believing in aliens "Was not a very
logical way of looking at the world." I am very curious about
your own personal views on the subject. I apologise if you might
have laid them out in "Out Of The Shadows" as I have not read
that yet, though I do have a copy.

I do not wish to put words in to your mouth but are you
suggesting that there is nothing within the vast databank of
Ufology over the last few hundred years that convinces or
persuades you in the least? And above all, the $64,000 question
- In your opinion am I actually wasting my time?


Stuart Miller







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   Nov > Nov 4

                           UFO Crashes In Germany

From: Heiner Gehring <heinergehring@web.de>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:59:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:41:11 -0500
Subject: UFO Crashes In Germany


Hello List members!

I took a look at the links about the Czernica crash. The whole
story seems to be weird

The town Czernica is in Silesia which was a part of Germany
until 1945. If an UFO crashed there in 1937 or 38, it was a
German town. So the story of Germans seizing the crash site
after the invasion is wrong. The authors writing about Haunebus
never mentioned the Czernica crash. The other story about the
Czernica crash gives the date 1937 and tells about German
occupation. The occupation of Poland started 1939. Even if the
the Czernica crash took place in a polish town the date is
wrong. Both stories have main errors so to my mind they both
wrong.

I've read almost all of the German UFO literature because my
subjects of research are German Saucers during World War II and
Foo Fighters. I published one book and several articles about
these topics in the last two years. I am also investigating the
remains of the German Flying Disks engineer Andreas Epp and I
published some books from this material.

As well I read hundreds of English articles and books about UFOs
before 1947. The Black Forest Crash is nowhere documented. All
the authors writing about this crash took the information from
other authors. No eyewitnesses, no exact date, no exact place -
nothing.


Heiner Gehring
Germany






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                  Re: Secrecy News -- 11/04/03 - Aftergood

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:17:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:23:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Secrecy News -- 11/04/03 - Aftergood


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 96
November 4, 2003


**      THE MISCONCEIVED "WAR ON TERRORISM"
**      THE BUTLER TRIAL BEGINS
**      SUPREME COURT ASKED TO REVIEW SECRET CASE
**      ACCESS TO CRS REPORTS AT ISSUE
**      QUIST ON SECURITY CLASSIFICATION OF INFORMATION


THE MISCONCEIVED "WAR ON TERRORISM"

Bush Administration rhetoric on national security policy has
long been characterized by an unusual woolliness of expression
and an underlying conceptual confusion. Familiar examples range
from the "axis of evil" that is not an axis at all to the
President's explanation that terrorists are attacking us because
they "hate freedom." This is not helpful.

Likewise, U.S. national security policy has been led astray by
the notion of a "war on terrorism," argued former national
security Zbigniew Brzezinski in a thoughtful speech last week.

The "war on terrorism" is a poor and misleading formulation
because it is an abstraction, he said. Its misplaced
concreteness obscures the nature of the enemy rather than
clarifying it.

"Terrorism is a technique for killing people. That doesn't tell
us who the enemy is. It's as if we said that World War II was
not against the Nazis but against blitzkrieg," Brzezinski said.

By framing national security policy as a generic response to
"terrorism," Brzezinski suggested, the Administration has made
it harder to distinguish among different kinds of terrorist
threats, to weigh the capabilities of particular terrorist
organizations, to devise countervailing strategies and to
allocate resources where they would be most likely to improve
security.

The associated domestic security policies, he might have added,
including classification and other information control
practices, are increasingly out of step with real-world threats.

See the text of Brzezinski' speech, presented October 28 at a
conference on "New American Strategies for Security and Peace,"
here:

http://www.prospect.org/webfeatures/2003/10/brzezinski-z-10-31.html

"Iraq is the central front in the war on Terror," said national
security advisor Condoleezza Rice in an October 31 speech that
actually capitalized "Terror," as if it were the name of the
enemy. Her speech embodied both the abstraction and the blurring
of distinctions that Brzezinski criticized. See:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/10/20031031-5.html


THE BUTLER TRIAL BEGINS

The trial of Thomas C. Butler, the distinguished infectious
disease specialist charged with mishandling lethal biological
agents and dozens of other charges, began yesterday. If
convicted, he would spend the rest of his life in jail.

Almost all independent observers believe the government is
prosecuting the case with an unduly heavy hand.

"As Dr. Butler's trial begins this week in Lubbock, Texas,
responsible scientists will not remain silent," said several
Nobel laureates in a statement issued yesterday.

"This respected colleague has been subjected to unfair and
disproportionate treatment and the case is having a negative
impact on the future of research in this crucial national
security-related field," wrote Peter Agre (Chemistry, 2003),
Sidney Altman (Chemistry, 1989), Robert Curl (Chemistry, 1996)
and Torsten Wiesel (Medicine, 1981).

"We urge that all efforts be made immediately by both the
prosecution and the defense to arrive at a mutually acceptable
plea bargain that does not include prison time."

See the Nobel laureates' statement on the Butler case here:

http://www.fas.org/butler/nobellet.html


SUPREME COURT ASKED TO REVIEW SECRET CASE

In one of the stranger artifacts of the post-9/11 legal
environment, the U.S. Supreme Court is being asked to review a
lower court ruling in a case that remains almost entirely
secret.

The very existence of the case was never supposed to have become
public. The name of the plaintiff in the case (a "Middle Eastern
man"), the identity of the defendants, the alleged offense, the
case number, every court filing and every court ruling -- were
all sealed from public view. Only a few minor details were
inadvertently disclosed due to a clerical error by an appeals
court clerk.

The legitimacy of this nearly absolute secrecy has been
challenged in a heavily censored petition to the Supreme Court,
filed last June and still pending.

"The Court should grant [the petition], not only to preserve and
protect the public's common-law and First Amendment rights to
know, but also to reinforce those rights in a time of increased
national suspicion about the free flow of information and
debate," wrote public defender Kathleen M. Williams.

A copy of the redacted petition for writ of certiorari in the
case M.K.B. v. Warden, et al, is posted here:

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/scotus/mkbwarden62703cpet.pdf

The background to this peculiar case was elucidated by Warren
Richey in "Secret 9/11 Case Before High Court," Christian
Science Monitor, October 30:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1030/p01s02-usju.html


ACCESS TO CRS REPORTS AT ISSUE

Two weeks ago, Congress abruptly terminated the limited public
access that had existed for several years to the official
database of reports prepared by the Congressional Research
Service (Secrecy News, 10/28/03).

Now, with his trademark resourcefulness and ingenuity, Russ Kick
of TheMemoryHole.org has given back much of what Congress had
taken away.

Hundreds of recent CRS reports, copied from the now inaccessible
database, have been posted here:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/crs/

Meanwhile, dozens of public interest groups from around the
country are petitioning members of Congress to support continued
public access to the CRS database.

"We urge you to work with CRS to restore at least the same level
of access to CRS reports that your web site has provided in the
past," the organizations wrote to Rep. Christopher Shays and
Rep. Mark Green in a November 3 letter organized by the American
Library Association.

See a copy of the letter here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2003/11/crs110303.pdf


QUIST ON SECURITY CLASSIFICATION OF INFORMATION

A revised edition of a monumental government-funded study on the
theory and practice of national security classification has been
approved for release and published.

"Security Classification of Information, Volume 1: Introduction,
History and Adverse Impacts" by Arvin S. Quist, originally
published in 1989, has been updated and supplemented with
additional historical background on the development of
classification policy over the past century and more.

It was sponsored by the U.S. Department of Energy Office of
Nuclear and National Security Information. A copy was obtained
by Secrecy News.

The 156 page study encompasses the Atomic Energy Act-based
system for classifying nuclear weapons secrets as well as the
executive order-based procedures for classifying other kinds of
national security information.

Following the work of scholars such as Harold Relyea of the
Congressional Research Service, for example, and that of the
1997 Commission on Protecting and Reducing Government Secrecy
(the Moynihan Commission), among others, the Quist study both
illuminates the historical roots of national security secrecy
and recounts its evolution over the years.

However, the revised study, which was largely completed in
August 2001, does not address the tumultuous changes in
government information policy following September 11.

The new edition of "Security Classification of Information,
Volume 1" is dated September 2002. But it was only recently
cleared by the Department of Energy for public release, and the
first copy was in fact released last week.

The full text is posted here, with kind permission of the
author:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/library/quist/index.html

Volume 2 of the Quist study, published in 1993, is also
available on the FAS web site. The projected volumes 3 and 4
were never completed.


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691






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   Nov > Nov 4

                     Re: Ufological Obstacles - Auchettl

From: John Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:57:42 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:40:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufological Obstacles - Auchettl


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 12:18:13 -0600
>Subject: Ufological Obstacles

>UFOLOGICAL OBSTACLES

<snip>

>The person to hire is one Daniel Sheehan, I think. Sheehan is a
>barrister with a _proven_ track record of stunning successes
>prosecuting difficult cases like Watergate, Wounded Knee, Karen
>Silkwood, Iran/Contra, Dr. John Mack, Ollie North and a host of
>others... His competence is more than merely vetted and his
>resume is spectacular. Moreover, he already has a plan for a
>legal assault that is irresistible because it does not have to
>chase a ufological quarry down the path it's on... for a loss...
>No, rather it flanks the problem obliquely and effectively
>prosecutes it from a path that runs parallel to it which _is_
>prosecutorial... where the direct approach was not, you see...

Hi Alfred,

I am not as negative about the past 50 years, in fact I see only
progress, but I see the landscape in a different form, in
respect to your interesting vantage point. I may reply to the
general thrust of your article, later?

However, in regards to Sheehans path or plan, that flanks the
problem etc (see above). Do you have that plan available, and if
not can you point me to a web link or doc. Would be most
interested to see it.


Best Regards,

John Auchettl



Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2003 - 42 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE







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               Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <editor@perceptions.couk.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:47:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:35:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Dickenson


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 13:06:26 -0000
>Subject: Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files

>The only comment I would care to make about the Berwyn
>Mountain incident was that it was indeed a bizarre
>combination of geological coincidences that seemed to
>have been produced that night.

Hello Stuart and All,

Listened to the BBC's Berwyn Mountain program and the evidence
was not presented all up-front but introduced piece-meal (so
each piece could be separately de-bunked without too much
suspicion?).

Outcome was: some listeners maybe got to end of program without
realizing they'd been asked to accept too many unrelated
coincidences.

1 - several bright "meteorites" arriving (apparently from
different directions) heading across the sky towards point X

2 - a medium-strength "earthquake" at point X

3 - several bright (circling?) lights in the sky above point X

4 - a group of "poachers" at point X, who must have created the
`large orange glowing ball at ground level, with smaller "fairy
lights" around it [paraphrased from Nurse's report]

5 - a Government "routine survey" team who just happened to
collect the "evidence" of the  "poachers" on the very next day -
 [How?]

Don't know about you but I don't think so many coincidences would
be accepted just to make a UFO-report look OK - so why should we
accept them to make a debunking-report look even part way
feasible?


Best regards

Ray Dickenson

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







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                     Re: Ufological Obstacles - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:02:57 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:14:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufological Obstacles - Lehmberg


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@sympatico.ca
>Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 22:02:33 +0000
>Subject: Re: Ufological Obstacles

>>From: John Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:57:42 EST
>>Subject: Re: Ufological Obstacles

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 12:18:13 -0600
>>>Subject: Ufological Obstacles

>>>UFOLOGICAL OBSTACLES

>>>The person to hire is one Daniel Sheehan, I think. Sheehan is a
>>>barrister with a _proven_ track record of stunning successes
>>>prosecuting difficult cases like Watergate, Wounded Knee, Karen
>>>Silkwood, Iran/Contra, Dr. John Mack, Ollie North and a host of
>>>others... His competence is more than merely vetted and his
>>>resume is spectacular. Moreover, he already has a plan for a
>>>legal assault that is irresistible because it does not have to
>>>chase a ufological quarry down the path it's on... for a loss...
>>>No, rather it flanks the problem obliquely and effectively
>>>prosecutes it from a path that runs parallel to it which _is_
>>>prosecutorial... where the direct approach was not, you see...

>>I am not as negative about the past 50 years, in fact I see only
>>progress, but I see the landscape in a different form, in
>>respect to your interesting vantage point. I may reply to the
>>general thrust of your article, later?

>>However, in regards to Sheehans path or plan, that flanks the
>>problem etc (see above). Do you have that plan available, and if
>>not can you point me to a web link or doc. Would be most
>>interested to see it.

>Alfred and John,

>Until proven otherwise, I think Sheehan has demonstrated only
>his incompetence by apparently being taken in by "The
>Government" and thinking that he was shown something special,
>when it sure sounds like Blue Book microfilms to me.  I am
>greatly unimpressed by what he (and his flack) has shown us so
>far. I would be happy to be proven wrong, but I don't think so.
>After all, I am [gasp] a "liberal" (depending on your
>definition).


You may be right Mr. Hall. Be that as it may, he appears to
have a significant track record for getting the impossible job
done, and I think we should explore every avenue we can that
gets _you_, specifically, the credit and respect you so richly
deserve.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Nov > Nov 5

                             Re: Trindade - Mori

From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 00:30:43 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 07:10:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade - Mori


>From: Brad Sparks
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 00:18:34 EST
>Subject: Re: Trindade

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:12:49 -0300
>>Subject: Trindade

>>This question has already been pointed before on this List
>>(actually, it was on this List that I first read about it), but
>>I would like to point out again the question of the apparent
>>uncanny similarity of the image of the Trindade Island UFO on
>>photos 1 and 2 (inverted):

>>http://www.strbrasil.com/ca/trindadehoax.htm

>>Yes, I'm using copies of copies (of maybe copies) of the
>>originals. Even then, the similarity is something curious.

>>Also, I would like to indicate again the article by Martin
>>Powell:

>>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mjpowell/Trindade/Trindade.htm

>>Powell itself used versions of the photos published on a book.
>>Even then, the similarity is something curious. More curious if
>>we presume that the casual degradation of the versions I used,
>>and that he used, should be different.

>>Then, I would like to indicate the superb and detailed work
>>about the case by Luis Noguez (available on-line, in Spanish):

>>http://www.strbrasil.com/ca/noguez_trindade00.htm

>Hi Ken,

>Why are you referring to these outrageous debunking attacks,
>especially Noguez's as "superb and detailed" and "excellent" (as
>you state on your website)?? Noguez's is the most appalling I
>have ever seen - he wants to have the Trindade photos hoaxed by
>THREE HOAXING METHODS at the same time - montage AND double-
>exposure AND photography of cloud-vapor covered aircraft
>SIMULTANEOUSLY!! You can't have all three hoaxing techniques at
>the same time, or at the same time in this particular case
>(montage and double exposure are simply physically inconsistent
>and mutually exclusive). Even the infamous CSICOP would not dare
>to propound such Menzelian pseudoscience, though debunkers do
>tend to operate on the principle that several bad explanations
>are better than having no good single explanation. Anti-UFO
>pseudoscience is matched only by the pro-UFO pseudoscience of
>GSW which still gets cited as if legitimate even after the
>scandalous Calgary photos blunder years ago exposed it all as a
>sham - why not cite George Adamski as a serious photoanalyst??

>If Noguez had any scientific understanding of optical physics
>and photography he would realize that it is physically
>impossible to make a double exposure darker than the surrounding
>sky - you cannot subtract light in a double exposure you can
>only add light! It is a fundamental fact of science and math,
>addition is not subtraction (C. B. Moore please take note!). So
>far he has successfully hidden behind the Spanish language so
>that English language analysts generally remain unaware of these
>scientifically absurd claims and thus haven't taken them apart.

>As for the "similarity" of Trindade Photos 1 and 2 when
>inverted, you admit they are not identical, just "similar."
>Therefore the debunker hoax theory that the photographer took
>tiny little pieces of film-emulsion with identical copy images
>of a hoaxed UFO only about 1/10 inch (2 mm) in size and stupidly
>pasted one upside down by accident onto photos of Trindade
>island background is exploded as utter nonsense. The images are
>not identical, upside down or not, so they are not some kind of
>hoaxer paste-up error.

>And all this photo-montage pasting would have had to be done in
>a hurried hoax while inside a makeshift darkroom aboard the
>Brazilian Navy ship just minutes after the UFO sighting without
>any "UFO" being sighted. And then the hoaxed UFO images would
>have to pass muster with the Navy witnesses to the UFO (when
>there wasn't a "UFO" ??) who were shown the freshly developed
>photos by the Trindade post commander immediately afterwards and
>who confirmed it looked like what they saw (didn't see??). In
>bright light on deck in mid-day with everyone staring at the UFO
>images on the negatives anything looking like pieces of film
>with fake UFO images glued on top of each island scene photo
>would have been glaringly obvious.

>From the classified CONFIDENTIAL intelligence report of March 3,
>1958, of Fleet Adm. Antonio Maria de Carvalho, Chief of the
>Brazilian Naval High Command, to the Navy Minister, prepared by
>intelligence officer Corvette-Capt. Jose Geraldo Brandao
>(emphasis added):

>viii. Afterwards, the negatives referred to were shown to
>members of the SHIP'S CREW who had witnessed the phenomenon;
>they RECOGNIZED THE OBJECT appearing in the photos as identical
>with the one they had sighted in the air;

>xi. A strong emotional upset was observed in all persons who
>SIGHTED the object, including the photographer, civilians and
>members of the SHIP'S CREW.

>I have measured what appears to be rapid rotational motion at
>the extreme edges of the object, amounting to something on the
>order of 400 to 800 degs/sec around a central axis, and the
>angular velocity of rotation changes from photo to photo (hence
>my 400 to 800 degs/sec figures). Thus in the approximately 2
>seconds between photos estimated by reenactments conducted by
>the Brazilian Air Force with the photographer, the UFO could
>very easily have flipped over 180 degrees.

>Sorry Ken, the UFO was reported wobbling in flight and my
>analysis shows it was displaying very extreme rotational motion,
>so it simply must have wobbled so far it flipped over. So it
>should look similar but not identical - due to differing object
>motion blur and differing atmospheric haze between Photos 1 and
>2 - and should look upside down. The photos show the UFO turned
>upside down so that is what happened - the object turned upside
>down.

>By the way Sunderland went on board the Brazilian Navy ship
>after it docked hoping to confirm it was all a hoax - and was
>discombobulated to find that the Navy officers he talked to
>confirmed that the UFO incident did occur. Sunderland tried to
>denigrate that fact but couldn't.


Hi,

I'm very glad that you recognized the similarity between the
images of the UFO. Here in Brazil, I couldn't find one ufologist
who dared to admit that as something relevant.

But please allow me to say that your suggested explanation to
this similarity has some problems. You suggest that the UFO
flipped upside down, and this explains why its image seems to be
inverted on two consecutive photos. You realize that this
hypothesis implicate that this was a peculiar type of UFO, where
the presumed shadows also get upside down along with it. I guess
you must admit that this is an odd ad hoc explanation.

Could it be? Maybe. A few gentle people already e-mailed me with
the same explanation for the inversion, which means that a few
more people also recognized the similarity and the apparent
inversion, and to explain that, they also seriously consider a
flipping UFO who also manages to flip its image, from different
angles, distances and speeds.

In any case, before we get into explaining the inversion, we
must first confirm it. I repeat that I'm very glad that you and
others recognized the similarity, something that a lot of people
may have deliberately denied. But this similarity has to be
analyzed on first prints, and if possible - and wherever they
may be -- on the original negatives. I urge anyone who has acess
to first prints to analyze this and share the results.

I must answer your question of why I referred to Noguez's work as
"excellent", "superb and detailed". That's obviously because I
think it is so. You say that Noguez "wants ... three hoaxing
methods at the same time". From what I read, Noguez suggested
these methods, not necessarily at the same time. You also say
that the has "successfully hidden behind the Spanish language so
that English language analysts generally remain unaware ... and
thus haven't taken them apart". I do recognize the importance of
the English language, but to say that anything that isn't in
English is being maliciously "hidden" is to go a bit too far.
Other than that, you write that the UFO was only a couple of
milimeters, and in the same message quotes that the members of
the ship's crew recognized it. Some eye. Noguez mentioned this
curious element on his work, including a graphical representation
of the UFO on the negatives, which he represented as a "-". Of
course, this lacks much precision, as we all know that even in an
enlarged photo the UFO is not very clear, and that Barauna spoke
about how he had to treat the film to make the UFO more visible,
so in the original, untreated negative we may presume that it
probably was a very blurred and unclear "-". Some eye indeed.

Finally, I express my sincere appreciation for your answer, even
though I may disagree with a good part of it. It was the only
direct answer that I received on this List, and in all, you did
recognize the similarity of the images of the UFO. That's
something very relevant.

It's been suggested, even by Barauna, that the lack of
independent witnesses can be explained by military orders of
silence. This must be confirmed, but it seems that there were at
least two more civilians aboard, aside from Barauna and his
friends: Aloisio and Fernando.

Cordially,

Kentaro Mori
http://www.strbrasil.com/ca/trindadehoax.htm







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   Nov > Nov 5

                         Re: UFOs & Ghosts - LeFevre

From: Charlette LeFevre <clefevre@oz.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 03:50:27 -0700 (MST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 08:30:23 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs & Ghosts - LeFevre


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:42:17 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFOs & Ghosts

>>From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:18:34 -0000
>>Subject: UFOs & Ghosts

>Hi Nick,

>In answer to your question on whether I or Mike Hall came across
>such reports in the BB files, etc., I have to say, no, not once
>did we see anything specific dealing with ghosts.

>However, some interviews, etc. have mentioned "ghost-like"
>qualities, etc., but they were not referring specifically to
>ghosts, but how a disc, UFO, or entity appeared.

>A very interesting idea that would be fun for an annotation, but
>with many people lumping into Ufology the other fortean areas,
>it might start another stream of muddy water entering the pond
>of Ufology.

If I may comment,

Nick may be onto something.

I believe there is a small cross-over area between UFOs and
ghosts - not in sightings but in that both, at times, deal with
sentient entities of an ultradimensional nature and are perhaps
often mistaken for each other. It may be interesting to see more
studies between UFO sightings, strange animal sightings and
other phenomenon. But lets face it - nobody reports to an agency
if they see ghosts and last time I looked there wasn't a
national database of unidentified plasma. Ghosts are just not
issues of National Security. Take the occurrences during the
Mothman UFO sightings and the Utah ranch, as examples of
multiple phenomena but I doubt Project Blue Book would have
reported ghost sightings, even if they had received.

Of note, the Seattle UFO/Paranormal Group recently has been
seeing an advantage in working with serious minded ghost
researchers because frankly they have extremely sensitive
electronic equipment. Most ghost groups have have ventured out
into the field with infrared cameras, electronic field detectors
and local Northwest groups have even been developing ion
measurement instrumentation - not unlike what UFOlogists are
looking into as a way for tracking the wake trail of a UFO in
the atmosphere which would likely leave ions.

In addition to assisting with field research such as crop circle
analysis, ghost group researchers are also being sought out for
detecting paranormal disturbances in residences of abductees. I
think they just might find something and break new ground in
investigation of a cross over area that UFOlogists have not
traditionally ventured. For some reason the existance of ghosts
is more accepting that the existance of extraterrestrials. Aunt
Bertha doing her daily rounds over some insectoid in your room.
Now I don't think we need to fear that somehow ghost researchers
will convolute the image of UFOlogy as both are recognized in
their respective fields. But who said it was ghastly to think a
UFO researcher can work with a paranormal expert! Oh my!

Lets face it, any group that can assist in the research and
collection of ground level data (albeit from a different
perspective) I think would be worthwhile in the study of any
phenomenon.







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   Nov > Nov 5

                            Late Nite Chauvanism

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 07:19:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 08:33:05 -0500
Subject: Late Nite Chauvanism


...And I've been guilty of the most egregious type. I'd
_assumed_- what I remembered as an outline presented by Daniel
Sheehan for civil litigation was heard on the Rense Program or
C2C AM... no... I hang my head in earned shame. Errol - you
should have said something! You should have reminded me!

An excellent debate with a thorough discussion of the issues is
presented on ebk's Strange Days Indeed... very balanced!

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/sdiarchive/sdi093.ra

Start looking about 25 minutes into the file. It's a fragment
(technical difficulties) but it's _enough_ of a fragment, and
it's the only place I think you'll find it on the internet!

Pros and Cons both get light! Additionally, much of what they
were talking about on that program seems downright *prescient*
given the occurrence of subsequent events... Go have a listen.
It's a short download. No hyperbole here!

...and Errol, I apologize, again.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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                Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 13:38:43 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 08:39:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Miller


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:15:56 -0000
>Subject: Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files


>I'm sending you a full length article on this case sometime in
>the next day or so Stuart. Dave C is the man to ask about
>Rendlesham as he's the most detached observer on the matter in
>the UK.

Andy,

Firstly, thank you for sending me that report. And may I
congratulate you on a well constructed, well reasoned and
researched piece of work. I do however consider it slightly
flawed and there are one or two points that you may be able to
clarify.

Despite an appearance of a balanced approach, your partiality
does manifest itself from as early as the second paragraph. In
setting the scene you are clearly telling the reader that this
is an area where historically there has been just a little bit
of flakiness over the years. Flying Dragons and Hounds of Hell
do create the impression that another tale of myth making
proportions is about to follow. It might well be a myth that a
UFO crashed there but that is a matter of interpretation of
solid fact.

Why do you "set the reader up" with a comment like "There is no
smoke without fire", clearly intimating that there might be some
substance to the story when it is obvious that you didn't
believe that to be likely, probably before you even began your
investigation? Likewise with your comment about the lights being
explained "ludicrously as people out poaching hares" when there
were indeed people out poaching and their activities and
statements go on to form a substantive part of your case. It is
interesting that you place so much weight on the words of
(unconvicted) criminals whereas in your conclusion you state
that one of the things that the case taught you was (again)
never to trust material originated by ufologists. Nice to know
where we stand in the hierarchy of sociopathic behaviour!

Your dismissal of the phantom helicopters as not being relevant
is unconvincing. You acknowledge that over a hundred good
sightings were made of this phenomena and that there is a still
secret military report outstanding on the matter. And yet you
dismiss it as a red herring because people weren't seeing
helicopters but an unknown light of many shapes and colours. The
way that reads is that witnesses have stated they saw
helicopters but you're saying they didn't and it was something
else. That seems a little presumptive and you offer nothing to
back it up. But then you say there were helicopters but they
still aren't relevant because the only link between them is the
one made by Nick Redfern and you try and shake his claim. But
you too also make that link when you state elsewhere that
helicopters were sighted over a period of a year before the
incident and stopped immediately after. A remarkable
coincidence.

Furthermore, on the balance of probability, if someone claims
they've "seen" a helicopter, part of their reasoning will have
been based on the sound of the engine, a distinctive noise. In
fact that would be my main criterion for making that judgement,
particularly if it was dark.

You dismiss Keith Critchlow and his happy band of scientists'
Geiger counter reading at Moel ty Uchaf as a one off and invalid
because no readings were taken before the incident or for a
period of time after. From a correct procedural point of view
I'm sure you're right but nevertheless, it is intriguing and I
would be reluctant to dismiss it out of hand.

The manner in which you deal with the testimony of Pat Evans the
nurse is confusing. She saw no police and was certainly not
stopped from going up the mountain that evening. You quote, "She
saw not a living soul on the mountain that night." Yes she did.
You tell us she saw the police and Huw Thomas although she
didn't realise this at the time. Assuming the veracity of the
BGS OS map that you quote, far from coming across as a
convincing witness, it appears that she didn't have much of a
clue at all as to what was going on!. You make this same
implication by then dismissing her sighting of the lights she
saw, a description by the way that is quite specific and
detailed. Your grounds for dismissal are based on the fact that
neither the police or Huw Thomas who were all near her at the
time made any mention of seeing anything of note and therefore
what she saw were the poachers lights which weren't worth
mentioning. You can't have it both ways with her. She's either
a reliable witness or an unreliable witness.

The manner in which you deal with these poachers lights is also
confusing and unconvincing. Virtually everybody but one unnamed
witness seems to be saying that there were lights pointing
upwards. The poachers insisted their lights were pointing
downwards and yet this part of their evidence you reject whilst
accepting other testimony from them. "Logic and probability"
dictates though that what people saw were their lights. Had
they refocused their efforts away from hares to perhaps flying
pigs? I'd also like to comment on their extreme bravery. Having
been virtually directly above an earthquake that measured 4-5 on
the Richter scale they seemed unconcerned and were happy to
continue what they were doing for another 45 minutes. So they
were both bad and mad?

I don't understand the significance of the fact that the RAF
Valley Mountain Rescue Team decided to send only a three man
team to investigate. The call to them came in 31 minutes after
the 8:38pm earth tremor. Had the Police decided in that brief
time that there had not been a plane crash after all? In which
case why even bother dragging them out of their homes? Or was it
just for show?

How do you know that the helicopters that continually flew over
the area for a week after the incident were from the media? You
make a statement without offering any fact.

Given the number of crashes over the years on or around that
mountain, do you not think it might be a good idea for someone
to think about moving the dam thing out of harms way?

Again Andy, I would like to express my appreciation for the
obvious work and thought that went in to your report. But the
bottom line is that you are expecting us to accept a quite
remarkable series of natural and man made coincidences, with a
number of loose ends thrown in. As a previous poster so
ironically pointed out, if the boot was on the other foot and
this was a landing and retrieval that you were trying to
substantiate as opposed to debunk, then you'd be laughed off out
of sight.

Stuart Miller








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                          Secrecy News -- 11/04/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:17:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:31:52 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/04/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 96
November 4, 2003


**      THE MISCONCEIVED "WAR ON TERRORISM"
**      THE BUTLER TRIAL BEGINS
**      SUPREME COURT ASKED TO REVIEW SECRET CASE
**      ACCESS TO CRS REPORTS AT ISSUE
**      QUIST ON SECURITY CLASSIFICATION OF INFORMATION


THE MISCONCEIVED "WAR ON TERRORISM"

Bush Administration rhetoric on national security policy has
long been characterized by an unusual woolliness of expression
and an underlying conceptual confusion. Familiar examples range
from the "axis of evil" that is not an axis at all to the
President's explanation that terrorists are attacking us because
they "hate freedom." This is not helpful.

Likewise, U.S. national security policy has been led astray by
the notion of a "war on terrorism," argued former national
security Zbigniew Brzezinski in a thoughtful speech last week.

The "war on terrorism" is a poor and misleading formulation
because it is an abstraction, he said. Its misplaced
concreteness obscures the nature of the enemy rather than
clarifying it.

"Terrorism is a technique for killing people. That doesn't tell
us who the enemy is. It's as if we said that World War II was
not against the Nazis but against blitzkrieg," Brzezinski said.

By framing national security policy as a generic response to
"terrorism," Brzezinski suggested, the Administration has made
it harder to distinguish among different kinds of terrorist
threats, to weigh the capabilities of particular terrorist
organizations, to devise countervailing strategies and to
allocate resources where they would be most likely to improve
security.

The associated domestic security policies, he might have added,
including classification and other information control
practices, are increasingly out of step with real-world threats.

See the text of Brzezinski' speech, presented October 28 at a
conference on "New American Strategies for Security and Peace,"
here:

http://www.prospect.org/webfeatures/2003/10/brzezinski-z-10-31.html

"Iraq is the central front in the war on Terror," said national
security advisor Condoleezza Rice in an October 31 speech that
actually capitalized "Terror," as if it were the name of the
enemy. Her speech embodied both the abstraction and the blurring
of distinctions that Brzezinski criticized. See:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/10/20031031-5.html


THE BUTLER TRIAL BEGINS

The trial of Thomas C. Butler, the distinguished infectious
disease specialist charged with mishandling lethal biological
agents and dozens of other charges, began yesterday. If
convicted, he would spend the rest of his life in jail.

Almost all independent observers believe the government is
prosecuting the case with an unduly heavy hand.

"As Dr. Butler's trial begins this week in Lubbock, Texas,
responsible scientists will not remain silent," said several
Nobel laureates in a statement issued yesterday.

"This respected colleague has been subjected to unfair and
disproportionate treatment and the case is having a negative
impact on the future of research in this crucial national
security-related field," wrote Peter Agre (Chemistry, 2003),
Sidney Altman (Chemistry, 1989), Robert Curl (Chemistry, 1996)
and Torsten Wiesel (Medicine, 1981).

"We urge that all efforts be made immediately by both the
prosecution and the defense to arrive at a mutually acceptable
plea bargain that does not include prison time."

See the Nobel laureates' statement on the Butler case here:

http://www.fas.org/butler/nobellet.html


SUPREME COURT ASKED TO REVIEW SECRET CASE

In one of the stranger artifacts of the post-9/11 legal
environment, the U.S. Supreme Court is being asked to review a
lower court ruling in a case that remains almost entirely
secret.

The very existence of the case was never supposed to have become
public. The name of the plaintiff in the case (a "Middle Eastern
man"), the identity of the defendants, the alleged offense, the
case number, every court filing and every court ruling -- were
all sealed from public view. Only a few minor details were
inadvertently disclosed due to a clerical error by an appeals
court clerk.

The legitimacy of this nearly absolute secrecy has been
challenged in a heavily censored petition to the Supreme Court,
filed last June and still pending.

"The Court should grant [the petition], not only to preserve and
protect the public's common-law and First Amendment rights to
know, but also to reinforce those rights in a time of increased
national suspicion about the free flow of information and
debate," wrote public defender Kathleen M. Williams.

A copy of the redacted petition for writ of certiorari in the
case M.K.B. v. Warden, et al, is posted here:

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/scotus/mkbwarden62703cpet.pdf

The background to this peculiar case was elucidated by Warren
Richey in "Secret 9/11 Case Before High Court," Christian
Science Monitor, October 30:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1030/p01s02-usju.html


ACCESS TO CRS REPORTS AT ISSUE

Two weeks ago, Congress abruptly terminated the limited public
access that had existed for several years to the official
database of reports prepared by the Congressional Research
Service (Secrecy News, 10/28/03).

Now, with his trademark resourcefulness and ingenuity, Russ Kick
of TheMemoryHole.org has given back much of what Congress had
taken away.

Hundreds of recent CRS reports, copied from the now inaccessible
database, have been posted here:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/crs/

Meanwhile, dozens of public interest groups from around the
country are petitioning members of Congress to support continued
public access to the CRS database.

"We urge you to work with CRS to restore at least the same level
of access to CRS reports that your web site has provided in the
past," the organizations wrote to Rep. Christopher Shays and
Rep. Mark Green in a November 3 letter organized by the American
Library Association.

See a copy of the letter here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2003/11/crs110303.pdf


QUIST ON SECURITY CLASSIFICATION OF INFORMATION

A revised edition of a monumental government-funded study on the
theory and practice of national security classification has been
approved for release and published.

"Security Classification of Information, Volume 1: Introduction,
History and Adverse Impacts" by Arvin S. Quist, originally
published in 1989, has been updated and supplemented with
additional historical background on the development of
classification policy over the past century and more.

It was sponsored by the U.S. Department of Energy Office of
Nuclear and National Security Information. A copy was obtained
by Secrecy News.

The 156 page study encompasses the Atomic Energy Act-based
system for classifying nuclear weapons secrets as well as the
executive order-based procedures for classifying other kinds of
national security information.

Following the work of scholars such as Harold Relyea of the
Congressional Research Service, for example, and that of the
1997 Commission on Protecting and Reducing Government Secrecy
(the Moynihan Commission), among others, the Quist study both
illuminates the historical roots of national security secrecy
and recounts its evolution over the years.

However, the revised study, which was largely completed in
August 2001, does not address the tumultuous changes in
government information policy following September 11.

The new edition of "Security Classification of Information,
Volume 1" is dated September 2002. But it was only recently
cleared by the Department of Energy for public release, and the
first copy was in fact released last week.

The full text is posted here, with kind permission of the
author:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/library/quist/index.html

Volume 2 of the Quist study, published in 1993, is also
available on the FAS web site. The projected volumes 3 and 4
were never completed.


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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   Nov > Nov 5

                     Meteor Lands In Northeast Arkansas

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 07:06:39 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:33:00 -0500
Subject: Meteor Lands In Northeast Arkansas


Source: Blytheville Courier News

http://www.blythevillecn.com/articles/2003/11/04/news/news02.txt


Meteor lands in northeast Arkansas

By PAT IVEY-Blytheville Courier News

While some Blytheville residents were enjoying what looked like
a fireworks display in the western sky about 10 p.m. Monday,
some Jonesboro residents thought the sky was falling.

According to Kelly Robertson, media spokesperson with the
Arkansas Department of Emergency Management, a meteor fell from
the sky, striking the earth very near the city of Jonesboro.

According to a report to ADEM from the National Weather Service
in Little Rock, eyewitnesses reported seeing a greenish object
falling through the sky. The impact caused homes in Craighead
and St. Francis counties to shake, and resulted in several small
fires in the Jonesboro area.

Robertson said no injuries or property damage was reported as a
result of the meteor.






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   Nov > Nov 5

                            Re: Trindade - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:25:42 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:36:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade - Rimmer


>From: Brad Sparks
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 00:18:34 EST
>Subject: Re: Trindade

>Why are you referring to these outrageous debunking attacks,
>especially Noguez's as "superb and detailed" and "excellent" (as
>you state on your website)?? Noguez's is the most appalling I
>have ever seen - he wants to have the Trindade photos hoaxed by
>THREE HOAXING METHODS at the same time - montage AND double-
> exposure AND photography of cloud-vapor covered aircraft
>SIMULTANEOUSLY!! You can't have all three hoaxing techniques at
>the same time, or at the same time in this particular case
>(montage and double exposure are simply physically inconsistent
>and mutually exclusive).

I think if you read the article, he is simply advancing these as
possible explanations, not combining them into one single
explanation. Incidentaly, I love your suggestion that Noguez was
"hiding behind the Spanish language". It couldn't just be that
that's the language he speaks, could it? I would have thought
that with a population of 20 million Spanish speakers in the US,
it wouldn't be too difficult to get it translated.

>As for the "similarity" of Trindade Photos 1 and 2 when
>inverted, you admit they are not identical, just "similar."
>Therefore the debunker hoax theory that the photographer took
>tiny little pieces of film-emulsion with identical copy images
>of a hoaxed UFO only about 1/10 inch (2 mm) in size and stupidly
>pasted one upside down by accident onto photos of Trindade
>island background is exploded as utter nonsense. The images are
>not identical, upside down or not, so they are not some kind of
>hoaxer paste-up error.
>
>From the classified CONFIDENTIAL intelligence report of March 3,
>1958, of Fleet Adm. Antonio Maria de Carvalho, Chief of the
>Brazilian Naval High Command, to the Navy Minister, prepared by
>intelligence officer Corvette-Capt. Jose Geraldo Brandao
>(emphasis added):

>viii. Afterwards, the negatives referred to were shown to
>members of the SHIP'S CREW who had witnessed the phenomenon;
>they RECOGNIZED THE OBJECT appearing in the photos as identical
>with the one they had sighted in the air;

Surely a fairly pointless exercise, as the images were, as you
note above, extremely small and in negative. I do not understand
how anybody could have made a positive identification of
anything under such circumstances. And it goes without saying
that we don't have any details at all about the people who were
supposed to have made this identification.

>I have measured what appears to be rapid rotational motion at
>the extreme edges of the object, amounting to something on the
>order of 400 to 800 degs/sec around a central axis, and the
>angular velocity of rotation changes from photo to photo (hence
>my 400 to 800 degs/sec figures).

What on earth is this all about? How can you possibly calculate
the rotational motion of an object from a few fuzzy photographs?
How can you possibly deduce that the angular velocity of
rotation changes from photograph to photograph? What evidence do
you have the object was even spinning?

>Thus in the approximately 2
>seconds between photos estimated by reenactments conducted by
>the Brazilian Air Force with the photographer, the UFO could
>very easily have flipped over 180 degrees.

And what are these re-enactments conducted by the Brazilian Air
Force? And how approximate is that two seconds? Did they just
try to see how quickly you could take photographs with a
Rolleiflex? Was whoever tried it as skilled with that model
camara as Barauna was?

>Sorry Ken, the UFO was reported wobbling in flight and my
>analysis shows it was displaying very extreme rotational motion,
>so it simply must have wobbled so far it flipped over.

And the idea is that this UFO was piloted by some young ET
tearaways who were driving so fast that they overturned the
craft? This really is desperate stuff.

>So it
>should look similar but not identical - due to differing object
>motion blur and differing atmospheric haze between Photos 1 and
>2 - and should look upside down. The photos show the UFO turned
>upside down so that is what happened - the object turned upside
>down.

And you can work out velocity of rotation from four blurred,
hazy, still photographs can you?

>By the way Sunderland went on board the Brazilian Navy ship
>after it docked hoping to confirm it was all a hoax - and was
>discombobulated to find that the Navy officers he talked to
>confirmed that the UFO incident did occur. Sunderland tried to
>denigrate that fact but couldn't.

I think John Harney has already answered this - Sunderland did
not get any direct statements pro or con from crew members who
might have been on deck at the time. He appears to have heard
only second-hand reports from officers who were not on deck at
the time the events supposedly happened.






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                Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:09:29 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:38:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Roberts


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 13:38:43 -0000
>Subject: Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files

Stuart wrote:

>Firstly, thank you for sending me that report. And may I
>congratulate you on a well constructed, well reasoned and
>researched piece of work.

No probs.

>Despite an appearance of a balanced approach, your partiality
>does manifest itself from as early as the second paragraph. In
>setting the scene you are clearly telling the reader that this
>is an area where historically there has been just a little bit
>of flakiness over the years. Flying Dragons and Hounds of Hell
>do create the impression that another tale of myth making
>proportions is about to follow. It might well be a myth that a
>UFO crashed there but that is a matter of interpretation of
>solid fact.

You've got to remember this was written for a book. I was
putting UFOs in their folkloric context, as they will be seen in
a few centuries, just as we see accounts of 'flaming dragons' in
retrospect now. Just because we are living at a time of UFO
reports doesn't invest them with any special reality status.
It's an easy trap for the gullible to fall into.

>Why do you "set the reader up" with a comment like "There is no
>smoke without fire", clearly intimating that there might be some
>substance to the story when it is obvious that you didn't
>believe that to be likely, probably before you even began your
>investigation? Likewise with your comment about the lights being
>explained "ludicrously as people out poaching hares" when there
>were indeed people out poaching and their activities and
>statements go on to form a substantive part of your case. It is
>interesting that you place so much weight on the words of
>(unconvicted) criminals whereas in your conclusion you state
>that one of the things that the case taught you was (again)
>never to trust material originated by ufologists. Nice to know
>where we stand in the hierarchy of sociopathic behaviour!

Hey, it' s called story telling Stuart, you've got to make it a
bit interesting. I could have told the whole story in precis
form in a page - but that would have been boring.

As for the poachers we now have tape (via R4) which confirms
what I was told off the record several years ago - the poachers
and the police were interchangeable in that area. Everyone was
at it!

>Your dismissal of the phantom helicopters as not being relevant
>is unconvincing. You acknowledge that over a hundred good
>sightings were made of this phenomena and that there is a still
>secret military report outstanding on the matter. And yet you
>dismiss it as a red herring because people weren't seeing
>helicopters but an unknown light of many shapes and colours. The
>way that reads is that witnesses have stated they saw
>helicopters but you're saying they didn't and it was something
>else. That seems a little presumptive and you offer nothing to
>back it up. But then you say there were helicopters but they
>still aren't relevant because the only link between them is the
>one made by Nick Redfern and you try and shake his claim. But
>you too also make that link when you state elsewhere that
>helicopters were sighted over a period of a year before the
>incident and stopped immediately after. A remarkable
>coincidence.

I think you should read some of Dave C's work on Phantom
Helicopters. The only link between them and the Berwyn story is
one which was forged - with no evidence - by certain ufologists.
I think you'll find Nick R believes (more or less) my revised
version of the investigation.

>Furthermore, on the balance of probability, if someone claims
>they've "seen" a helicopter, part of their reasoning will have
>been based on the sound of the engine, a distinctive noise. In
>fact that would be my main criterion for making that judgement,
>particularly if it was dark.

We'll have to disagree.

>You dismiss Keith Critchlow and his happy band of scientists'
>Geiger counter reading at Moel ty Uchaf as a one off and invalid
>because no readings were taken before the incident or for a
>period of time after. From a correct procedural point of view
>I'm sure you're right but nevertheless, it is intriguing and I
>would be reluctant to dismiss it out of hand.

Seemed reasonable for me to do so. I don't think any of the
initial proponents that the event was 'earthlights' (and I was
one of them, as was Devereux) still thinks there is any weight
in that theory due to the new evidence which has emerged. It's a
great circle, in a fantastic setting and I recommend a visit -
 but it's quite a way off where the alleged UFO was seen.

>The manner in which you deal with the testimony of Pat Evans the
>nurse is confusing. She saw no police and was certainly not
>stopped from going up the mountain that evening. You quote, "She
>saw not a living soul on the mountain that night." Yes she did.
>You tell us she saw the police and Huw Thomas although she
>didn't realise this at the time. Assuming the veracity of the
>BGS OS map that you quote, far from coming across as a
>convincing witness, it appears that she didn't have much of a
>clue at all as to what was going on!.

I don't think she did. But she was certain she saw 'not a living
soul' (and her two daughter back this up) - the fact that she
saw lights didn't indicate humans to her, as she was looking for
a plane crash.

>You make this same
>implication by then dismissing her sighting of the lights she
>saw, a description by the way that is quite specific and
>detailed. Your grounds for dismissal are based on the fact that
>neither the police or Huw Thomas who were all near her at the
>time made any mention of seeing anything of note and therefore
>what she saw were the poachers lights which weren't worth
>mentioning. You can't have it both ways with her. She's either
>a reliable witness or an unreliable witness.

Not so. She was seeing something across over 2 miles of pitch
black countryside. She was describing the meeting between the
poachers and the police from *her* perspective. Neither police
nor poachers reported anything out of the ordinary, either in
contemporanous reports or when I interviewed them year later.

>The manner in which you deal with these poachers lights is also
>confusing and unconvincing. Virtually everybody but one unnamed
>witness seems to be saying that there were lights pointing
>upwards. The poachers insisted their lights were pointing
>downwards and yet this part of their evidence you reject whilst
>accepting other testimony from them. "Logic and probability"
>dictates though that what people saw were their lights. Had
>they refocused their efforts away from hares to perhaps flying
>pigs? I'd also like to comment on their extreme bravery. Having
>been virtually directly above an earthquake that measured 4-5 on
>the Richter scale they seemed unconcerned and were happy to
>continue what they were doing for another 45 minutes. So they
>were both bad and mad?

And probably dangerous to know! The poachers lights were at the
right place at the right time, by their own admission. They
didn't see anyother lights on the mountain except for the
bolides (all described in the BGS field notes). Therefore it's
reasonable to assume that the upward pointing lights seen down
in the valley were their's.

>I don't understand the significance of the fact that the RAF
>Valley Mountain Rescue Team decided to send only a three man
>team to investigate. The call to them came in 31 minutes after
>the 8:38pm earth tremor. Had the Police decided in that brief
>time that there had not been a plane crash after all? In which
>case why even bother dragging them out of their homes? Or was it
>just for show?

Probably just for an exercise. The MRT records indicate they saw
nothing of interest. The police log show that they didn't know
*what* had happened, thought it *may* have been a crash but
because they'd checked with all civil and military radar and
were told nothing was missing (all in the Police Log of which I
have a full copy) weren't too excited but had to do *something*.

>How do you know that the helicopters that continually flew over
>the area for a week after the incident were from the media? You
>make a statement without offering any fact.

I don't. How do we know any helicopter we see is from anywhere?
I'm basing that assumption on the fact that Dr Ron Maddison was
taken up in a press chopper and TV and radio reports all had
reports sent from choppers. No one reported seeing any
specifically military choppers and not even MRT Valley could be
bothered to get theirs out of the shed.

>Given the number of crashes over the years on or around that
>mountain, do you not think it might be a good idea for someone
>to think about moving the dam thing out of harms way?

Yes, mountains, like drugs, kill people and it's about time that
the government did something. They lie around the landscape
doing nothing all day and can't even be bothered to move when
'planes come along. Scandalous!

>Again Andy, I would like to express my appreciation for the
>obvious work and thought that went in to your report. But the
>bottom line is that you are expecting us to accept a quite
>remarkable series of natural and man made coincidences, with a
>number of loose ends thrown in.

Maybe so, but they are all extremely well documented
'coincidences' which fit together. As is most of reality when
you look at it at 20-odd years distance.

>As a previous poster so
>ironically pointed out, if the boot was on the other foot and
>this was a landing and retrieval that you were trying to
>substantiate as opposed to debunk, then you'd be laughed off out
>of sight.

Not with the appropriate documentation. You also need to
remember that the chapter you have read is a distillation of
more than a thousand pieces of official documentation, tape
transcripts etc. You - or anyone else for that matter - is
welcome to look at it at any reasonable time.

People also need to remember that this event wasn't a UFO
'crash' until the likes of Margaret Fry and Tony Dodd etc forged
it into one.


Happy Trails

Andy







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                   Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:26:31 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:42:34 -0500
Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Roberts


>From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:39:10 -0000
>Subject: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme

Pilgrims,

Nick Pope wrote, whilst wiping away the sour grape juice:

>Some of British ufology's most colourful characters were
>featured, including Brenda Butler, the original investigator of
>the Rendlesham Forest case, self-styled social historians Andy
>Roberts and Dave Clarke, and former police officer turned UFO
>investigator Tony Dodd.

'Self-styled' - most entertaining. Dave is a trained and
qualified historian who works as one. I write books on social
history. I rest my valise!

>In throwing together this eclectic mix of ufologists, one could
>not help but feel that the Radio 4 team were deliberately
>playing them off against each other, thereby sending them up,
>albeit in a subtle and light-hearted manner.

How we laughed!

Dave and I have a long standing professional relationship with
the producer and presenter, David Lewis and Jerry Northern. Last
year we did a program on RAF personnel sightings for them, and
did all the recording, interveiwing etc. Hardly what Nick says
above. We acted, and were paid, as consultants for both
documentaries.

We also saw and checked the script prior to transmission to
check for errors.

Incidentally, prior to this program we were approached by a
company doing a UFO show for one of the UK's more, er,
'imaginative' TV channels, Channel 5 (famous for its soft core
porn!). Rik from 'Monster Films' approached Dave and I to be
consultants for the show but, having more pressing matters to
attend to with the BBC we suggested they use Nick. Say thanks
Nick! (I can provide dated emails which show how much they were
offering etc, if anyone doubts this).

>Caught between the ufologists, the most interesting (if sadly
>underused) characters were Donald Moreland and Derek Coumbe, ex-
>Royal Air Force officers who gave straightforward and factual
>accounts of their involvement in the Rendlesham Forest incident.

Interesting then isn't it that both Moreland and Coumbe share
our sceptical view of the incident, based upon their own
experiences at the time; both expressed their view that the case
been exaggerated by UFO believers such as Nick.

As for Coumbe, his evidence demolishes Nick's claims that there
was radar evidence for the night of Halt's expedition into the
forest. He was present at the main Air Defence Radar unit and
had access to the radar picture and is emphatic that nothing
unusual was visible.

Does Nick now accept that is the case - bearing in mind Coumbe's
first-hand knowledge of what went on that night?

I think we should be told.

>But in focusing on the ufologists - believers and sceptics alike
>- the programme illustrated that at opposite ends of the
>ufological belief spectrum, the fanaticism and dogmatism is
>remarkably similar.

And what part of the belief spectrum does Mr Pope inhabit?

The suggestion appears to be that he inhabits some lofty height
and that his own beliefs don't have any influence upon his
contribution to the subject, and that side that he takes on the
matter - that's risible.....

Here's a Nick Pope quote on Rendlesham:

"Despite the fact that I am a non-conspiracy theoriest and a
rational guy...I am a believer in the Extra Terrestrial
Hypothesis and I will go with the ETH on this one."

Hardly unbiased, or objective in his approach to the subject!


Happy Trails

Andy








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   Nov > Nov 5

                 Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:11:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:48:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Kaeser


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 10:47:58 +0100
>Subject: Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update

<snip>

>Steven,

>The true nature of the AA film is one question, and the
>credibility of the cameraman's story is another one, it seems to
>me.

>As for the alleged crash site discovered following his
>indications, as transmitted by Ray Santilli, thank you for
>bringing your point of view, but to me it makes the matter more
>confusing, I am afraid. Let's try to summarize the story. In the
>book "Beyond Roswell", Michael Hesemann tells of his search of
>the site, together with Ted Loman and Wendelle Stevens, helped
>by an alleged agent from DNA. Then he cites your letter in which
>you say that, "with directions provided by Bob Shell, (Michael
>Hesemann) and Ted Loman", you were able to "locate the crash
>site with little difficulty". When reading that, I assumed that
>you were refering to the same location. But now you think that
>it was probably not the "right" site, meaning the site described
>by the cameraman. Is that your opinion ?

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to coordinate my trip to Socorro at
the same time as any of the others. It's been a number of years
since I was there and I'm going from memory here, but I don't
think that anyone found a site that would exactly match the
cameraman's description of the trip. He spoke of rough roads,
going under a train trestle, and it took about 45 minutes to an
hour after they left Socorro (all of this is from memory, so
don't shoot me). When I first arrived in Socorro, I met with an
individual at New Mexico Tech who had helped Bob Shell locate a
site that they found interesting. It included a large rock wall
with a huge section of it torn out by some "event", and was
located in what appears to be a dry lake (or stream) bed. This
area was popular with local rock climbers, who used these rock
faces for practice. As a result, there were chalk marks on the
rock face and a lot of tire tracks and footprints.

To get to this site, one travelled west out of Socorro, on the
road toward Magdalena, and about a mile or so out of town you
took a left onto a gravel road that went up over a small rise
and then to the left you could see this very unusual section of
rock wall with a large depression in it. This was the site that
the spokesman at NMT had mentioned, and was confirmed when I
sent pictures to Bob Shell later. However, there had never been
any train tracks betwee the town and this location and it was
only about ten minutes from the city limits, so it didn't fit
the description of the trip given by the cameraman in his
statement. I didn't travel further down the gravel road, since
my vehicle wasn't really designed for off road use, but Bob
indicated that there were some interesting concrete objects near
the mine that the road led to, and the mine itself was sealed
tight. I checked with the records at NMT and the mine was
actually closed down in the 1947-49 time frame, but while an
interesting mystery to add to the mix, it didn't really relate
to the AA 'film' per se.

The problem with this location is that it's too close to Socorro
and the only train trestle is a rotting trestle that runs
between Socorro and Magdelena which has been used to carry
silver ore to Sorcorro from the mine sites. Those mines were
also closed down in the late 40's. I should mention that the
mine near the alleged crash site was not a silver mine and not
owned by the same company as the Magdalena mines.

>>This being said, I've had a couple of messages from Bob Shell in
>>the last couple of years regarding the site that you've
>>identified, and he doesn't believe that its correct. Bob spent a
>>number of weeks going through that part of New Mexico, along
>>with ufologists from Arizona. I believe he also thinks that he's
>>located the crash site, but without more provenance for the
>>cameraman's images it really doesn't mean anything. Ray Santilli
>>has ruined his own story through his actions, whether they were
>>unavoidable or not.

>You say that Bob Shell now thinks that he has found
>another site. Do you agree with him, and his new site?
>Do you know where it is?

I haven't pursued it any further. Bob did more research into the
identity of the cameraman and believes he identified someone as
such. However, that person (who lived in the Florida, I believe)
died several years ago. As Ed noted, Bob has dropped out of this
mystery and is into other pursuits unrelated to UFOs. I didn't
question him on the alleged location that he'd found, since he
couldn't prove anything anyway, and have no opinion on whether
it might be the actual site or not.

>If this is the case, there are now three sites in competition,
>near Socorro: the one found by Hesemann and Loman, the one found
>by Ed Gehrman, and the one found by Bob Shell! Do you agree that
>this is the situation?

This is something like the search for the second Roswell crash
site. I would agree that this is the situation, and only know
that no one has managed to prove that their site is the "true"
site.

I will add that Philip Mantle and Tim Mathews are still
investigating the AA 'film' to a limited degree. Philip
indicated articles are being written on their latest findings,
and I think some of them won't support some of the conclusions
reached in Beyond Roswell.


Steve







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                          Secrecy News -- 11/05/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:11:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:51:11 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/05/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 97
November 5, 2003


**      DECLASSIFICATION AND CHINESE NUCLEAR FORCES
**      REPORTERS COMMITTEE ON THE "SECRET" SUPREME COURT CASE
**      MEXICO AND GUATEMALA
**      NEW CRS REPORTS
**      CONGRESS BOTCHES PUBLIC ACCESS TO CRS


DECLASSIFICATION AND CHINESE NUCLEAR FORCES

The subjective, often arbitrary character of national security
classification policy can be clearly discerned from the handling
of two Freedom of Information Act requests for a 1984 Defense
Intelligence Agency (DIA) estimate concerning Chinese nuclear
weapons systems.

Last month, the DIA released a declassified version of its 1984
China estimate to Hans M. Kristensen, a consultant with the
Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) Nuclear Program.  See a
copy here:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/nuke/dia1984.pdf

A few years ago, however, the National Security Archive had
requested the very same document which it published here in
declassified form:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB19/09-01.htm

To Mr. Kristensen's surprise, he found significant differences
between the two versions of the document.  "The new release
reclassifies seven entire paragraphs" that were previously
disclosed, he noted, as well as a few other brief passages.

At the same time, "notwithstanding these excessive and
unnecessary withholdings, the new version also declassifies
previously withheld information" such as an estimate of the 1984
inventory of Chinese nuclear weapons.

Mr. Kristensen said he plans to appeal the denial of the
requested material on grounds that much of it has previously
been declassified and released under proper authority.

Current information on Chinese nuclear forces may be found in
the NRDC Nuclear Notebook in the November/December 2003 issue of
the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists:

  http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/nukenotes/nd03nukenote.html

The same issue of the Bulletin also features a remarkable
article on the "many ways U.S. government agencies thwart the
Freedom of Information Act" by Jeffrey T. Richelson of the
National Security Archive (not online).


REPORTERS COMMITTEE ON THE "SECRET" SUPREME COURT CASE

The Supreme Court yesterday directed the government to respond
to a petition from a "Middle Eastern man" identified only as
M.K.B. who is seeking review of the extraordinary secrecy
surrounding his case (SN, 11/04/03).

The Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press had filed an
amicus brief on November 3 urging the Court to intervene in the
matter.

"This case is perhaps the most egregious recent example of an
alarming trend toward excessive secrecy in the federal courts,
particularly in cases that bear even a tangential connection to
the events of Sept. 11, 2001," the Reporters Committee brief
stated. See a copy here:

http://www.rcfp.org/news/documents/20031103-mkbvwarden.pdf

"M.K.B." is none other than South Florida resident Mohamed K.
Bellahouel, reported Dan Christensen of the Miami Daily Business
Review, who has provided the most in-depth media coverage of
this unusual case beginning last March.

His latest story, "Plea for Openness," November 5, appears here:

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1067350987786


MEXICO AND GUATEMALA

Mexico's ambivalent posture toward the violent conflict in
neighboring Guatemala that extended over three decades is
documented and analyzed by Kate Doyle of the National Security
Archive based on newly declassified documents.

See "Mexico's Southern Front:  Guatemala and the Search for
Security," November 2:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB100/index.htm


NEW CRS REPORTS

Thanks to the U.S. State Department, but no thanks to the U.S.
Congress, several new reports of the Congressional Research
Service have lately entered the public domain.

New CRS reports of note include:

"Computer Attack and Cyber Terrorism: Vulnerabilities and Policy
Issues for Congress," by Clay Wilson, October 17:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32114.pdf

"Africa's Great Lakes Region: Current Conditions in Burundi,
Democratic Republic of the Congo, Rwanda, and Uganda," by Ted
Dagne and Maureen Farrell, October 28:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32128.pdf

"Islamic Religious Schools, Madrasas: Background," by Febe
Armanios, October 29:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS21654.pdf


CONGRESS BOTCHES PUBLIC ACCESS TO CRS

What was Congress thinking when it moved to terminate public
access to a database of Congressional Research Services reports?
Apparently, it thought it was doing Members a favor.

Under the new policy, Members will be able to select the
particular CRS reports they wish to offer on their web sites and
to provide links to those specific reports, which will be
automatically updated.

This arrangement "maintains the direct relationship between
Members and their constituents by enabling Members to learn
directly of constituent concerns, and by providing constituents
with information that Members personally deem useful," according
to a September 10 letter from the House Committee on House
Administration.

"This modified approach also preserves the principle of
selective dissemination and avoids legal and institutional
dangers posed by wholesale publication of CRS products," the
letter stated.  See (thanks to MJR):

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2003/11/crs091003.pdf

But selective dissemination is a problem, not a principle.  And
the "legal and institutional dangers" of wholesale publication
are a CRS fantasy that is refuted by the counterexample of the
General Accounting Office.  The GAO, another congressional
agency, makes virtually all of its reports directly available to
the public without adverse consequences.

Two months after the House Committee announcement, few if any
congressional web sites have adopted the new "approach."
 Instead, members of the public are turning elsewhere for access
to CRS products.


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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   Nov > Nov 5

               Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 09:56:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:53:15 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:18:05 -0600
>Subject: Re: UFO's Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:59:46 -0800
>>Subject: UFO's Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

>>Fellow Listers,

>>Upon reading the below mentioned article, found here:

>>http://www.newsleader.com/news/stories/20031030/opinion/547723.html

>>I felt compelled to write to it's author; below is a copy of the
>>e-mail I sent to him:

>Alright Mr. Warren! Another pretending and uninformed proto-
>dilettante smoked like a cheap cigar! Good Show!

>Lehmberg@snowhill.com


Dear Mr. Lehmberg & All,

Thank you! As I mentioned to a good friend and colleague, it's
very difficult to maintain diplomacy when responding to writings
such as that of Mr. Pfisterer, however; I do try to give the
benefit of the doubt, and inform, rather then scold, as his
ignorance on the subject was blatantly obvious.


Regards,

Frank Warren










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                          Filer's Files #45 -- 2003

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:09:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:13:14 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #45 -- 2003


Filer's Files #45 -- 2003 Skywatch Investigations.
George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
November 5, 2003, Webmaster: Chuck Warren --
My website is at: http://www.georgefiler.com/

Sightings Continue Worldwide The purpose of these files is to
report the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs
on a daily basis around the world and in space. This week's
files investigate: Mars - that has ancient cyanobacteria life,
New York City - sphere over the Helmsley Palace Hotel,
Pennsylvania - craft took control of my auto, West Virginia -
flying rectangle, Florida - an iridescent boomerang, Alabama -
 hovering metallic UFO, Ohio -cluster of lights, Wisconsin -
maneuvering lights, Illinois -Flying disk, Minnesota -strange
cloud and flying triangle, Texas - metallic sphere seen by many,
Idaho - oval shaped UFO, New Mexico -very unusual atmospheric
entry of unknown craft, Nevada -disk with evenly spaced lights,
California -black flat object with circular base with top and
Oregon's flying triangles. Overseas reports are from Canada -
triangle cluster of lights, Alaska -red flying dot, Norway-
 three floating lights, Netherlands -high speed bright UFO, Iraq
- object tracked and annotated by Air Operations Center, South
Africa-round sphere, Singapore -four circling oval lights,
Australia -red lights split, and in New Zealand - a huge disc
buzzes house.


LARGEST SOLAR FLARE EVER RECORDED


A major solar eruption on November 4, 2003, at 12:40 PM (MDT)
flung a cloud of expanding, hot gas into space. It was the
largest solar flare every recorded. Fortunately, for Earth it
came from region 486 that is the furthest portion of the Sun's
western limb, thus minimizing the effects to Earth. "This solar
flare was the largest I have every seen" said Dr. Ernest
Hildner, director of the NOAA/NASA Space Weather Center. The
solar flares are expected to cause satellite communication
problems and weather changes. See
http://www.live365.com/stations/earthchanges?site=earthchanges

MARS - HAS ANCIENT CYANOBACTERIA LIFE

Dr. Serguei M. Pershin, Ph.D. an Investigator for the NASA Mars
Polar Lander LIDAR experiment, Russia's first experiment on a US
spacecraft claims he has discovered organic pigments on Mars
relating to ancient photosynthetic organisms. ICAMSR Executive
Director, Barry E. DiGregorio has written an exclusive article
about his discovery in Spectroscopy Magazine. Hubble Space
Telescope images of Mars show green patches each spring and key
wavelengths were used in his analysis. Why is the discovery of
organic p5igments on Mars so important for the science of
exobiology? Because it might still be there today, and perhaps
that is what Dr. Gilbert V. Levin and Dr. Patricia Ann Straat
found in their experiment 24 years ago with NASA's Viking Mars
spacecraft. On Mars, during the Hesperian period of postulated
oceans, lakes and rivers, there would have been sufficient
energy input from solar radiation to support life with the
characteristics of the cyanobacteria that dominate many
terrestrial and aquatic habitats on Earth, e.g. the cold deserts
in Antarctica. The key to the sur5vival of cyanobacteria are in
part due to the pigments they have such as: Chlorophyll for
converting solar radiation into food (photosynthesis). They can
tolerate the extreme damaging effect of solar UV-B by
synthesizing a variety of protecting pigments, which either
screen or prevent the effect of the radiation.

There are a series of strange tunnels, possible structures and
canals on Mars. NASA has provided the data, and you can decide
for yourself, if Mars once had intelligent life. There is other
strange phenomenon on Mars. When the data is analyzed there are
surprising results. Dr. Pershin may have found porphyrins
derived from chlorophyll and hopanoids that are found in
cyanobacterial sedimentary deposits. These photosynthetic
pigments are auto-fluorescent and all biomolecules have unique
spectra which can be detected amongst other compounds within a
community. Dr. Pershin has used a two-band, red/green radiance-
ratio technique as a tool for detecting evidence of pigments and
related compounds derived from any cyanobacteria-like organisms
in sediments residual from possible fo5rmer potential habitats
on the surface of Mars covering a rather large area in the
western Utopia Planitia region of Mars. It is well known that
organic pigments and components have a visible and red part in
fluorescence spectrum under the laser and solar UV-visible
excitation. The question is: Are these pigments ancient or
recent? Thanks to: ICAMSR Barry E. DiGregorioNEW YORK CITY -
 SPHERE OVER THE HELMSLEY PALACE HOTEL

MANHATTAN - The witness was on his break at work, at 10:10 AM,
on October 28, 2003, and from the roof of his building saw a
sphere very high up over The Helmsley Palace Hotel. It was
silvery in color and did not move for at least two minutes so he
called a coworker. They both watched it hover for another two
minutes. It seemed to be fade in and out and began to move north
very slowly and it disappeared behind a building. At 11:45 AM, I
went back to the roof to look for it again, and this time two
spheres5 merged into one in front of my eyes! It hovered around
the same area as before, and moved away slowly, stopped and then
once again disappeared behind a building.I went back to the roof
at 12:20 PM, and did not see anything. I was about to leave when
I looked straight up in the sky and saw what looked like a
stretched oval shape, that reminded me of an airplane wing. It
was brownish in color. It moved south at a faster speed, more
like an airplane speed for 15 seconds. It then stopped and
hovered for 30 seconds, then maneuvered in three very tight
circles. At the last circle it disappeared behind a building. I
watched until it reemerged and make another circle, only to
disappear behind 5a building once again. Thanks to Peer
Davenport http://www.ufocenter.com/ UFOcenter

PENNSYLVANIA - CRAFT TOOK CONTROL OF MY AUTOPLAINS -- The object
was low and stationary on October 14, 2003, at 7 PM. It appeared
to be triangular in shape. It produced a white beam of light.
There were red, white, and green flashing lights. We observed it
for about 1 minute, then it disappeared suddenly without a
trace. The object was completely silent as it hovered above. The
weather at the time was light rain and windy, completely
overcast.

INTERSTATE 80 WEST - On October 18, 2003, at 2 AM, between exits
24 and 25 on Route 80 the witness was looking up at Orion and
saw the six sisters. Then suddenly there were three. The lights
were getting bigger and brighter and closer. Panic started to
grip me and I realized I'm seeing a UFO. There were three
spheres of bluish white light that were just about the size of a
dime at arm's length. The shapes were perfectly round as every
abduction scenario I have ever heard raced through my head. I
grabbed my mobile phone: no signal. I topped 95 MPH and my car
began to shake as I tried to get5 close to other travelers. I
glanced at the clock and it was 2 AM, and they were gone. I
eased my auto around the next corner and freaked. All three
balls of light were headed straight at me. This highway is split
in half by some serious hills and valleys. You would have to be
suicidal to drive the wrong way. However, they were at the tops
of the trees ruling out a truck or car. I feared for my life. My
steering wheel suddenly started twisting left and right,
swerving me all over the road. I gripped it so tightly trying to
keep control that I put a blood blister on my right thumb. The
lights seemed to be controlling my auto and I was in absolute
terror. I let my steering wheel go. They were more powerful than
me. I resigned myself to probing and let go of the wheel. The
moment I let go, my car straightened out and the lights
surrounded me. There was one on the front bumper and one on each
side. They guided my auto and sent beams into my auto,
attempting communication, and then they shot up into the stars
and were gone. When I looked back at the clock it was saying
about 2:15 am. It seemed much longer. I studied the one by my
door that was perfectly spherical about two meters in diameter,
made of a metal seamed in an intricate lattice. They all seemed
to be identical. I felt vibrations like an electric shaver
pulsing through me. I saw ripples of heat pulsing up and some
sort of energy field that pulled my auto through the air and now
was holding it. Between each sphere and my auto was this ripple,
maybe some magnetic field that allowed them to control my auto.
There was no sound, my engine had stopped and the power to my
dashboard dimmed, all the lights just barely faded out. The
spheres changed color from the white blue of twinkling stars to
a dim silvery blue. The sphere in front changed to a pale washed
out sea foam green. Then as if an aperture had opened, a beam of
that same pale green light shot out through my engine to me. It
felt as if someone had struck me with a bat. The sphere on the
passenger side shot a beam through the door at the same level in
the same green. It was very short and painless. When the beam
stopped the sphere changed to the sea foam green. I turned and
looked out my window to see the last sphere change to a deep
sapphire blue. My aut5o was somehow in the air from the moment I
let go of the wheel. It was some kind of force/magnetic beam.

I felt a slight bump as we touched down and the green spheres
changed to a pulsing red and shot up into the sky. The blue
sphere was still at my side. I could see the entire sphere with
intricate lattice seemed to glow in a deep purple. The sphere
was about eye level with me as if trying to stare me down. A
bright light blinded me and I could feel its warmth and an
electric like razor vibration. I was paralyzed with fear, and
could hear a mechanical voice. That said, "Sorry for your loss,
it is our loss as well." It turned red and shot into the sky
then joined by the other two and they blinked out of sight in
less than a second. When I say joined I mean as a group not into
one unit. My auto started and it was now 2:15 AM. NUFORC Note:
We are uncertain this is a serious report. It seems a bit
"theatrical" to us. Thanks to Peter Davenport [
http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

WEST VIRGINIA -FLYING RECTANGLE BECKLEY - Two friends were
driving down S. Kanawha Street about 8:45 PM, on October 21,
2003, when they saw a huge glowing fluorescent green flash
shooting down from the sky with a glow around it. There was a
slight arch trailing behind it and then it suddenly shot
straight down over the mountain. There was total silence. I
thought some kids were on the golf course doing some unusual
fire works that lit up the sky. I talked to a friend of mine
later who said, He told me, "I saw the strangest a few minute5s
ago..." His description was the same as mine. ((NUFORC Note: One
of several reports of the same object. PD)) [
http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

FLORIDA - AN IRIDESCENT BOOMERANG MIAMI -- At 7:49 PM, a couple
and their son were outside looking at the stars and how
beautiful the sky was at 3 AM, on October 29, 2003. The husband
saw a boomerang shaped shadow in the western sky moving south
that had an iridescent glow that disappeared. After about five
minutes, they saw the boomerang shaped object flying, but with
orange lights. It was again in the western sky moving south
quickly. There was an airplane moving east, and we thought there
would be a collision, but all of a sudden the bo5omerang hovered
and then disappeared. This was not a regular airplane.
http://www.ufocenter.com/ UFOcenter

ALABAMA - HOVERING METALLIC UFOCHEROKEE -- Enroute from
Sheffield to Cherokee, around sunset at about 7:15 PM, a couple
saw something strange in the sky on October 18, 2003. They
pulled off the highway and got out to watch it hovering about
500 feet away on the other side of the highway. The object had
no lights, and made no sound, but it reflected the sunset with a
pinkish color. They thought the object was metallic and then it
just vanished. It didn't fly away it just disappeared. Thanks to
Peter Davenport http://www.ufocenter.com/

OHIO -CLUSTER OF LIGHTSSAGAMORE HILLS -- At about 7:10 PM on
October 30, 2003, a family was talking with some friends when
they saw about 8-10 bright lights in the sky. At first we
thought they were helicopters, but then the lights started
zigzagging and getting brighter. Every few seconds the color
would change to red and white so the witness grabbed his
camcorder and was filming. All of a sudden, the sky around the
lights turned bright red for about five minutes, then it was
over. I have the whole thing on tape.
http://www.ufocenter.com/

FOSTORIA -- George Ritter continues to videotape UFOs behind his
home and over a neighbor's farm. A spectacular Manta Ray like
craft was captured flying at an estimated 2000 mph. Frames 1 and
2 can be seen at my website in these Weekly Files,
http://www.georgefiler.com/


WISCONSIN - MANEUVERING LIGHTS

STEVENS POINT - Vincent R. reports, "I was traveling from the
Mobil Gas Station on Highway 10 going east on October 26, 2003,
when I observed a circular yellow-orange-red flashing light
looking out my windshield on the left side of my truck at 6:30
PM." I watched the object fly above the tree line straight east
of Wal Mart and disappear. Thanks to http://www.ufowisconsin.com/

HALFMOON LAKE - About 7:30 PM, I was night fishing off the shore
of Halfmoon Lake and October 26, 2003, when the red and blue
strobe lights were suddenly flying across the lake. They moved
in random directions and speeds within two miles of me. At one
point it changed to more like an orange/white sphere moving in
my direction and back, strobing red & blue again very close to
the tree line moving very erraticly. Then it went down below the
tree line, but not near the airport, after five minutes. Thanks
to Peter Davenport http://www.ufocenter.com/

ILLINOIS - FLYING DISKCHICAGO -The witness just got off the phone
with her husband on October 20, 2003, at 4:45 PM, who advised
her to get out of the house, because it was a beautiful 84
degrees. Going out, she saw a disk-like object gliding slowly
eastward toward Lake Michigan. It looked like a black balloon
but it looked too big to be so high in the sky. Then it turned
and I could see that it was not a balloon, but flat like a disk
but not completely flat...and shiny with a kind of orange/gold
circular shape in the middle. It kept flipping, over and over.
It wasn't moving fast, just kind of gliding and I lost sight of
it. http://www.ufocenter.com/

IDAHO - OVAL SHAPED UFOPOCATELLO -On October 13, 2003, a disc
shaped object was seen at 10 to 15 thousand feet high at 11:50
PM. It first looked like an airplane, but the object turned or
rolled, at this time it looked long shaped or cigar shaped, then
it rolled to the right showing an oval shape, silver in color.
The sun caught it just right and it reflected the sunlight. It
then flew upward and within a second or two faded out. It
vanished into thin air. Thanks to Peter Davenport
http://www.ufocenter.com/

MINNESOTA -STRANGE CLOUD AND FLYING TRIANGLE West Central -A
couple was relaxing on October 3, 2003, when they noticed the
sky turning a strange pink, so the husband got his camera and
began to take pictures. A strange vertical cloud started near
the bottom of a hill and seemed to be walking up the hill. It
seemed to be 'body-like' in form and emitted some kind of
'Mental energy.' There was an unusual line left in the sky. The
'walking cloud' moved over the rise, and then zoomed off to the
west. The sky returns to normal color. Thanks to Brian Vike,
Director HBCC UFO Research
http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/home.html

COTTAGE GROVE -At 6:34 AM, on his way home from work early
Sunday morning October 19, 2003, the witness noticed bright
lights just above the trees. He realized they were too high to
be attached to the ground. The object was hovering slowly and
very low. When I reached my driveway and turned my engine off I
could hear a low hum that was right above my backyard. There was
a big black triangle with three lights that slowly traveled
north. Thanks to Peter Davenport [ http://www.ufocenter.com/
]UFOcenter

TEXAS - METALLIC SPHERE SEEN BY MANY

LAREDO -- We had just finished playing a soccer match and we
were laying on the grass on October 19, 2003. One team player
sighted a metallic sphere up high in the sky at 12:30 PM. It was
just hovering at a very low speed, moving in a southerly
direction towards Mexico. Even though it was bright and sunny,
we could see how it changed color several times. It went from a
silver metallic color to a bright white back to metallic. It
moved very slow for about 25 minutes until suddenly it just
moved at a very fast speed in a straight southerly direction and
vanished.[ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

NEW MEXICO - UNUSUAL ATMOSPHERIC ENTRY OF UNKNOWN

PINOS ALTOS -A high speed UFO was spotted on October 16, 2003,
at 8:17 PM, flying a heading of 115 degrees straight to
Restricted Area R-107A, at White Sands, N.M. A blue UFO with
white borders, was first observed crossing part of the sky that
changed color to a dark orange/red streak that broke up the
farther east it flew. The width of the streak was about as wide
as a pencil eraser held at arm's length. At the end of the
visible streak, the object went invisible! The same exact
sighting was seen the next night, ten minutes later at 8:26 PM.
The observer stated, "I have seen many entries into the
atmosphere by various different craft, but this is completely
unlike anything I have seen before!" Thanks to Peter Davenport [
http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenterNEVADA -DISK WITH EVENLY
SPACED LIGHTS

LAS VEGAS -BJ writes, "On November 1, 2003, about 7:45 PM, I
spotted something that I thought was a hotel that was decorated
for Halloween." But I realized there were no hotels in the area,
near Nellis Air Force Base on the west side of Sunrise Mountain.
"The object was a round shape with evenly spaced lights around
the bottom half, and above them was a brighter light." All of a
sudden it moved, and it was just not there. I reported it to
metro and they just told me to forget it. I'm a mature woman of
good standing, and know what I saw, but I could not get them to
understand. "It looked like a round saucer shape, with two sets
of lights, and the one on top was very bright," she reports.
Thanks to leanybj@hotmail.com


CALIFORNIA -BLACK FLAT OBJECT WITH CIRCULAR BASE
HAYWARD -- On October 16, 2003, around 5:34 PM, the witness was
leaving work and saw a black object in the sky that at first
glance was a hawk. A couple of minutes later, it was still in
the same position. My office is located in the middle of an
industrial park, and the object was just hovering as the sun
set. I tried to determine its shape by the reflection of
sunlight, but because it was all black, I could not see any
reflection. The base was somewhat circular and flat, but the top
was a bit strange loo5king. The object did not have any wings or
tail. When the bus came I could still see the object in the sky
in the same position, so I decided to call my co-worker who was
still at work to go outside. She came back to the phone and told
me she also saw a black object in the sky but it was not moving.
Thanks to Peter Davenport [ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

OREGON -TWO NOISELESS FLYING TRIANGLES SCAPPOOSE -- At 11 PM, on
October 30, 2003, the witness saw two fast moving noiseless
flying triangles passing over their town. Both craft were much
faster than a small prop plane low or a jet plane high, but much
slower than a meteor. A similar sighting was reported last week.
Both craft were hard to track, because again it appeared that
the 'lights' on the craft were more reflective than self-
luminous. The first craft was traveling from NW to SE towards
Portland. The second craft was seen about 1 minute later
traveling from SW to NE. Both were seen as they traveled away
from us. The first craft had a 'light' at the front and 4 or 5
on each of the swept sides, but the trailing edge, if it was
there, was completely dark. The second craft had only three
lights, one at the front, 5the others at the trailing tips. The
shape was determined by the placement of the lights only. They
could have been triangular or chevron shaped.

We both find it quite odd that with as much time as we spend
outdoors at night, we have had 3 sightings within a week, yet
none for the previous 8 years here. My dad, who is an published
astronomer and recently gave a talk on Mars at Princeton, told
me a few days ago that he saw an identical object in 1956 in
Pennsylvania. He saw the same, quiet triangular craft moving
noiselessly at extreme speed with a pale light at each tip. He
says it was translucent and observed stars through it. [
http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

CANADA -TRIANGLE CLUSTER OF LIGHTS YUKON -- While packing out on
a sheep hunt in the Yukon Territory at 3 AM my guide and I saw a
cluster of lights moving across the sky, 20 degrees above the
horizon on October 21, 2003. I told him, here comes a airplane.
He said "That is odd" because we were in the upper part of the
Yukon near Mount McDonald and you do not see many airplanes.
Suddenly the cluster of light stopped dead about 3 miles away.
Then, it started darting around, up and down, then sideways.
Then stopped again. We watched it for about five minutes, then
it darted around again, then stopped and held steady. The lights
were red, blue and white. Through my rifle scope it was a
triangle of 12 lights all of equal brightness. As we5 walked on
we could see it for about thirty minutes.

REGINA, SASKATCHEWAN -- On Saturday, October 25, 2003, a deer
hunter walked out of a farmer's field located 25 kilometers east
of Regina and was waiting for a ride at 7:00 PM, when he noticed
a light suddenly appear. It was heavily overcast with clouds
down to about 300 - 400 meters and the light just winked on. It
was orange-yellow and was the same brightness as Mars. The light
slowly started to move north and would accelerate and slow down.
It traveled about 20 degrees north before it came to a dead stop
and reversed direct5ion. It moved in the same odd
accelerating/slowing down motion as it flew back south. Several
farm dogs were barking frantically, as well as cattle
"screaming" and coyotes howling frantically as well. This light
made this traverse several times and I never heard any noise. I
had the odd sensation that it was looking for something. At 7:10
AM, it moved back to the same place were it appeared and faded
out. The animals stopped making noise as the light faded out. I
called the Regina airport, but they had no information. Thanks
to Brian Vike [ http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/home.html
]CANADA HBCCALASKA -RED FLYING DOT

ANCHORAGE -A group of students at the Hanshew Middle School bus
stop saw a red light moving across the sky on October 22, 2003,
at 7 AM. One girl among the six people at the bus stop said,
"There it is." The witness says, "I looked up and saw a red dot
moving and then it started gaining altitude very rapidly and
stopped and started moving to the left. Then, I saw another red
dot moving towards it. When the first light disappeared, so did
the second. My friends and I saw a red light that flew straight
up very fast and disappeared. No plane can climb that fast."
Thanks to Peter Davenport [ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

NORWAY- THREE FLOATING LIGHTS

ASKER -- It was a dark, starry morning on October 22, 2003, at
6:30 AM, when a 60 year old woman observer looked up and saw
three lights floating up in the sky, some 100 meters above her.
It was totally soundless and flying south. The lights were soft,
but distinct. The space between the lights was firm. There is no
air traffic in the area. [ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

UK/ENGLAND --A FAST RED LIGHT SHOT ACROSS THE SKY VALE, GUERNSEY
-

The witness was looking at the night sky on October 26, 2003, at
11:05 PM, from his mates car when a red light shot across the
sky leaving a vapor trail. It looked like a fighter plane, but
also like a meteor, and was traveling straight from the east. It
was traveling at least mach speed or probably more judging by
looking at the normal jets in the sky. Other jets can't compare
in terms of speed! It flew across the sky in two seconds. [
http://www.ufocenter.com/ ] UFOcenter

NETHERLANDS -HIGH SPEED BRIGHT UFODRIEBERGEN -
A 40 year old resident from Utrecht, on Thursday night October
16, 2003, at 8:45 PM saw a huge, bright, coherent light in the
crystal-clear sky. The white light appeared between the height
airliners usually fly and satellites, according to the witness.
It moved extremely fast in a straight line into space and
disappeared. "I never witnessed such a high speed in all my
life," said the witness. No sound was heard. Thanks to Toine
Trust Site [ http://www.ufoplaza.nl/ ]www.UFOPlaza.nl

IRAQ OBJECT TRACKED BY AIR OPS CENTER BAGHDAD -- On October 17,
2003, An unidentified flying object was tracked by radars in use
by the Coalition Forces at the Air Operations Center in Qatar.
There was no visible observation of any UFOs. [
http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

SOUTH AFRICA -ROUND SPHERE CAPE TOWN -The observer was standing
in the office driveway and looked towards Table Mountain and saw
a round sphere that looked like a weather balloon. It was quite
low flying below the tip of the mountain peak and speeding along
in a horizontal path on October 17, 2003, at 4:54 PM. It flew in
a horizontal line and started to accelerate at an awesome speed
and we were unable to follow as it disappeared. A very eerie
feeling came over us after realizing that it was no weather
balloon. [ http://www.ufocenter.com/ ]UFOcenter

SINGAPORE -FOUR CIRCLING OVAL LIGHTSA UFO report was shown on
Singapore television news on October 30, 2003. Many Singaporeans
had noticed the UFO and reported it to the television hotline.
According to the news, they contacted Singapore aviation
authority but received no explanation. Basically, there were
four oval lights circling and merging and then circling again. A
similar craft was seen the week before.

AUSTRALIA - STROBE LIGHTS SPLIT AND FLY OFF PERTH -Four
witnesses in a shopping center in Nollamarra saw a low flying
jet pass by noisily heading north at low altitude on October 24,
2003, at 7:15 PM. The witnesses noticed two red strobe lights in
the distance also coming from the south, like the jet had. The
strobes were alternating on and off and they disappeared as if
they had gone behind a cloud. However, the night was cloudless.
They then reappeared to the east, still bearing north. The
lights were much brighter than stars, but there were only the
two red strobes, no green lights. As they came closer to our
position they showed themselves to be very bright. They passed
by us with no sound, behavi5ng as if they were a part of the
same craft. They appeared to bank slightly and drifted apart
slowly as they flew northeast and northwest respectively. The
sighting took five minutes. Thanks to Stuart Durkin Television
and Video Producer Winter Creek Media PH: 9344 8806 MOB: 0409
376 728 [ http://www.wintercreek.com.au/ ]www.wintercreek.com.au

NEW ZEALAND -HUGE DISC BUZZES HOUSEMOSGIEL -- Lee Blackmore
writes, "My first unexplained sighting happened in a small town
in South Island called Mosgiel in 1978, when I was 14 years old.
It was about 8:15 PM, sometime in October, and very warm and I
was making my mother a cup of tea. At first I heard a rumbling
sound similar to thunder, and as the rumbling got closer the
windows started to shake. The lights in the house were
flickering on and off and the TV reception was going haywire. I
was looking up at the sky above the trees when they were bent
over as if pulled to the ground by their tops. A huge shadow was
coming over the house, and the thunder like sound had changed to
a low whoop whoop. As the shadow grew larger and larger you
could see faint grayish colored lights. The shadow was now a
definite shape, out lined by the grey lights. A huge disc was
only about 30 meters above the house (probably higher but it
sure was close and very large). It filled up the sky. The trees
were still doing their dance. Swinging back and forth like
crazy. As the disc passed over the house, three very bright
lights were visible from the back. One red, one green and one
yellow. Octagon in shape and looked like honeycomb. The sound
seemed overwhelmingly loud, but in reality it wasn't. The sound
felt like it was in my head not in the room. Very
disorientating. The disc then speed off south at an alarming
rate, towards Dunedin, over Saddle Hill. The lights in the house
had stopped flickering and the trees were calm again. I am not
sure at what point the sound stopped. Overall this experience
took only two minutes. Over the next week there were reports in
the paper and on the radio. Reports as far south as Tairei Mouth
( 60 km away). I had the chills all through this experience and
also now, writing about it." Thanks to Lee Blackmore [
mailto:lablackmore@optusnet.com.au ]lablackmore@optusnet.com.au

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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 5

                       Stalked By A UFO & Visitations

From: Brian Vike - HBCCUFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 10:30:03 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:42:03 -0500
Subject: Stalked By A UFO & Visitations


Stalked By A Unidentified Flying Object on Highway #16 In
British Columbia, Canada.

The original report below, sighting in Houston, British Columbia
came from Mr. Peter Davenport at the NUFORC:

(http://www.ufocenter.com/

as he thought I would be interested in looking into the case due
to it being in the area where I live. HBCC UFO called the lady
who filed the report to Peter and I had a long conversation with
her.  I did not realize just how much more there was to the
case. Also the lady who I named Connie in this report will
writing up a full version of all events that have taken place
over the years.

I would like to express my many thanks to Peter Davenport for
passing along this case to me for follow-up and to the kind lady
for taking the time to have a wonderful conversation with me.


Houston, British Columbia

Date: August 8, 1998
Time:  2:00 a.m.

It was 2:00 a.m. and I was headed East on the Yellowhead
Highway, Hwy 16. I was just a few miles outside of Houston.  I
had just left the little town of Smithers and I was looking for
a Fair Grounds that I had thought they had there to stay
overnight with 5 horses that I had brought out of Alaska.  I had
traveled this highway lots of times and usually stayed in
Vanderhoof or Quesnel but the road had been bad coming down the
Cassiar Hwy and had slowed me down.  My traveling companions
besides the 5 equines consisted of my SharPei dog (CharChar) and
1 cat (Sally).  It was my traveling companions that alerted me
to something unusual in the beginning. Char started  howling in
a strange way and was looking out the rear window.  I could see
a strange white glow on her when I turned around.  At first this
registered as light coming off my front running lights on the
horse trailer, the problem being they are orange, not white.
Still did not register with me that there was anything unusual
yet.  Then Sally, the cat, started making strange noises I never
had heard before and she actually jumped up on the seat in front
with me then jumped back to the back and went under the seat.
 Her hackles were up at the time.

Meanwhile, Char is running from the back rear window to me and
whining and her hackles are up.  I was at this point starting to
get spooked.  I had slowed down considerably looking for the
Fair Grounds and had been leaning forward on the steering wheel
(there was some ground fog in the valleys there too).  It was at
this time that I realized the truck was glowing with a white
light and the ground around me also was.  It was like I was in a
big spotlight with  one of those new blue-white headlights they
have out now.

I leaned forward and looked up and realized that there was
something over me.  It was as larger than a large full moon in
size in the sky and was a glowing green color with this large
white light in the middle.  Like a stupid idiot I really slowed
down and rolled my window down and listened. I heard no engines.
 At this point I am trying to justify this with a meteor,
crashing plane, helicopter, anything but imagining that I could
be the perfect "UFO medical experiment on wheels, 5 equine,1
feline,1 canine and 1 hominid." This my daughter later reminded
me of and we had a good laugh, however I failed to see the humor
in it at the time it was happening. I don't think I directly
thought of this however I know it had to be in my mind.

The object suddenly removed the light from me and then sped
forward. I was at this point going up a hill and it appeared to
be going to the top of the hill to land.  It was at this point I
actually saw 3 points of light that were red or orange on the
edge.  I thought they might have been engine exhaust or after
burners.  It was a little unclear with the fog I was going in
and out of.  This was not a heavy fog, more like a mist. It
hesitated at the crest of the hill then suddenly made a sharp
turn and headed due North from me.  It was at this point that I
realized that I had come to a complete stop in the Highway.
 Myself and Char were just staring at this thing.  I can't tell
you what was running through her mind but I can tell you I was
now scared.

It went through this mist and went right up and over a small
mountain there. I could see the glow of light from beyond the
mountain like it had landed. I got going again quite quickly and
stopped in the next town to call my husband.  He is in the USAF
and while I am relating all this to him it was at this time I
realized that the entire Convenience Store was now quiet.
Everyone in there was listening to me! One of the customers in
there told me that there had been sightings in the area all
Summer!  Well I ask if there was a RCMP close at hand because I
still thought that maybe I should report it.

The clerk in the store he did not think the office for just
reporting would be open at this time so I just determined I
would call later.  There were 2 logging truck drivers there that
said that I could park between them if I was still scared since
they would be there until 6:00 when the mill opened. This is
exactly what I did.

The next morning I started off again headed for
Arlington,Washington. Somewhere before Prince George I spied a
RCMP on the side of the road running radar and it was a woman.
 I thought this would be the chance to talk to someone so I
parked on the side of the road and approached her vehicle.  I
had made sure that I had picked up one of my Business Cards
first.(I run a horse transport business so I do a lot of
traveling at night. It is easier on the horses especially in the
Summer.  I also had lived 17 years in Alaska so I knew this Hwy
and this was a first for me on it.)

When I came up the first thing out of mouth was that here was my
business card, that I did not do drugs nor rarely drank and
certainly had been doing neither the previous night.  She
listened to my tale then handed the card back to me and kind of
chuckled.  Without saying anything to me she got on the radio
back to Houston, BC, Canada and told them I would be calling in
a report.  I interrupted her to ask if it would be a problem if
I called once I got to a land line in Washington and she said
yes.  Well this went better than I had expected.  I really
thought that she might have been calling out the "paddy wagon"
with the straight jackets for me.  It was at this time after
speaking on the radio she got out of the car and looked at me
straight on.  She then proceeded to tell me she believed me and
did not think that I was a "NUT" since if I was a nut seeing
things at night then they had 2 RCMP's that were the same and
were seeing things in broad daylight.  She said that a craft had
been sited in the same area just a few days before.

I proceeded on feeling much better actually.  When I got to
Arlington, Washington at a motel I called the desk at the RCMP's
at Houston and gave them a full report.


Visitations By Little People

The story is real but the names in this report below are
fictitious for obvious reasons.

Connie  Driver of the vehicle who had the amazing encounter in
Houston, British Columbia.


I telephoned the witness as I had a number of question I wanted
to ask her. She lives with her husband on their ranch in North
Carolina. The lady was such a pleasant person to talk with, also
owns her own business and has degrees in anthropology and
archaeology from the University of Houston, Texas. As far as I
am concerned she is a very credible witness who gave a number of
details in her report that only residents in my area would know
about.

As we chatted about what took place that early morning, she went
on to tell me about some other frightening experiences which has
followed her throughout her life. The sad part to the story is
that not only is she being effected, but members of her family
and now her young grandchild as well. When I hear about children
being involved with such events it saddens me. It is bad enough
for adults to deal with the strange happenings, but to know that
children are having visitations, etc.. it really does break my
heart.

The lady went on to say that her daughter was joking with her
about her being a rolling medical experiment on wheels, as she
was carrying her pets, horses and of course herself. When her
daughter said this, Connie didn't find it very amusing due to
what has, and still is, going on in her family.

Connie told me she has had some other troubling times in her
family. Her son had an experience and Connie as well. Connie
said she called them her little people. She told me she had many
dreams, not so much vivid ones, but dreams. But she was very
upset when her  son, then three years old and when all of them
were living in Alaska. It got so bad that she took her son to a
psychologist thinking a three year old couldn't make up such a
story if something wasn't taking place. Connie not knowing at
the time when she made the appointment for her son that the
psychologist was a child specialist. The psychologist said to
Connie that her son kept talking about this "thing" over and
over while they were in the psychologist office. The lady
psychologist told Connie you would not believe how many children
come through her office telling a similar story, of these
unusual experiences. Connie mentioned to the psychologist that
even when she was a child, and now an adult she still has her
dreams about her visitors or little people. Connie told me that
her husband doesn't even want to hear about any of the
experiences anymore, mainly due to not being able to do anything
about them ( a feeling of helplessness).  But it wasn't until
the summer of 1987 when Connie and all of her children went to
Barnes and Noble book store in Austin Texas to pick up a book
she was interested in reading. While looking around the book
store, her young son asked his mother if he could go and look at
some of the children's books. Connie said yes, but told him that
he was not to wander off and stay where she was able to keep him
in her sight. As the youngster made his way to the children's
book section he went around a corner, or a different book
section which displayed other book topics. All of a sudden all
of the shoppers in the book store could hear a young child yell
out, "here's my monster Mom"!

Connie's son came running back to her with a book in his hand,
again yelling out, "here's my monster Mom". What the little boy
was holding in his hands was a copy of Mr. Whitley Srieber's
book, Communion. On the front cover of the book was this young
boys monster, a being with large dark almond shape eyes. Connie
told me after her son gave out the loud yell you could have
heard a pin drop in the book store as everyone was looking in
their direction. Connie took the book from her son, went through
the check out and paid for the copy. She wanted to have an idea
of what was frightening her child. It wasn't until she got home
and later that evening when laying in bed reading a book she had
already started did she realize the book in her hands was
another one by Whitley Srieber. She had not put two and two
together and was rather surprised.

Connie went on to say that now her six year old granddaughter is
going through the same things as her son had. Judy tells her
Mother and Grandmother that there are little old men who visit
me in the night. More information will be coming on how the
little girl is doing.

Connie told me when she was a little girl she was terrified of
the dark and insisted on having the lights on when she was
sleeping, and she told me it is still like this today. Also she
doesn't sleep very well.

Connie also discussed some other bizarre things that happened to
her over the years of these visitations. One time while still
living in Alaska she had a frightful nightmare, woke up the next
morning with a burn mark on her tailbone. This burned circle on
her back stayed with her for approximately two weeks and she did
seek medical help over it. Connie also told me that she has had
bad nose bleeds since she was a child, and the same with her
son. On one of Connie's trips this last year something
extraordinary took place. She was having excruciating headaches
and had nightmares before she had left home, matter of fact she
woke up the night before she left on her trip and saw beings
standing in the doorway. Her nose bleeds became very severe and
 her husband said we are going to have to take you in to see a
doctor when you come back off the road trip.

Connie at this time was transporting horses and was calling her
husband on the telephone. On one call she made to her husband at
a stop over at a motel, Connie said that her nose was very
stuffed up, bad pain above her eye and was taking aspirin for
the pain. She said she was continually blowing her nose and
getting more blood from her nostril the more she blew until her
left nostril was completely stuffed up and no air could pass
through it. Finally still trying to clear her sinuses she blew
into a tissue a couple more times when something broke free. To
her surprise in her tissue was a piece of material approx: one
half inch long, one quarter inch wide and had the strangest
little nodules on the material. Connie said the debris felt like
bone and was pinkish in color. Seeing she was frightened, on her
own and upset, Connie flushed the material down the toilet at
the motel. Ever since that day she discarded this bit of
material, she has had no more problems.

A sad part to this story is that Connie had to help with her
grandmother. At the time the doctors thought Connie's
grandmother was mentally ill and wanted to have her committed.
This was due to her seeing things at her home during the nights.
She also walked around with a flashlight all night long Connie
told me. As we know with the abduction experience it seems to
run through the families, sometimes starting with the
grandparents to their children, to their children and on and on
it can go. So was Connie's grandmother having visitations ? Even
after Connie's grandmother had passed away and the house was
bought by another family member, strange happenings still go on
to this day in that home.


Brian Vike

Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm





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   Nov > Nov 5

             Robert Guenette of 'Monsters! Mysteries Or Myths?'

From: Louise A. Lowry <ShnSassy1@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:59:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:47:10 -0500
Subject: Robert Guenette of 'Monsters! Mysteries Or Myths?'


Robert Guenette, 68; Developed Newsreel Style for History Films

November 5, 2003
LA Times

By Dennis McLellan, Times Staff Writer

Robert Guenette, an Emmy Award-winning documentarian who
pioneered depicting great events in history as if they had been
filmed by modern newsreel cameras with productions such as
"They've Killed President Lincoln" and "The Crucifixion of
Jesus," has died. He was 68.

Guenette, co-founder of the International Documentary Assn. and
the Los Angeles Media & Education Center, died of brain cancer
Friday at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center.

During his 50-year career as an editor, writer, director and
producer, Guenette made hundreds of hours of documentaries that
have appeared on the three major networks, PBS, HBO, Showtime
and in syndication.

He won two New York-area Emmy Awards for writing and producing
"Faulkner's Mississippi," a 1965 documentary narrated by
Montgomery Clift. He produced "Monsters! Mysteries or Myths?" a
1974 investigation into the existence of the Loch Ness monster,
the Abominable Snowman and Bigfoot.

Narrated by Rod Serling, the show remains the highest-rated
documentary in television history. He produced "Victory at
Entebbe!" a star-studded 1976 dramatization of the daring
Israeli commando raid and rescue of Jewish hostages from Arab
terrorists in Uganda. It aired as a TV movie on ABC five months
after the rescue and was later released theatrically outside the
United States, becoming what is said to be the first full-length
feature film for theatrical release that was shot on videotape.

In 1985, he produced, with Bill Graham, the first outdoor rock
concert in the Soviet Union, "A Rock 'n' Roll Summit," for
Showtime.

Guenette produced and co-wrote the landmark "They've Killed
President Lincoln," which aired on NBC in 1971 and which earned
him and co-writer Theodore H. Strauss an Emmy for outstanding
achievement in cultural documentary programming.

The documentary marked the first of many that Guenette produced
for David L. Wolper's production company.

Wolper told The Times this week that, after a decade of making
documentaries, "we were running out of stock footage to make
shows and I said, 'Why don't we make a show where there wasn't
any stock footage?'

"Guenette took the idea of making a
traditional documentary by presenting history as it might have
been seen if cameras had been available and "brought it to
fruition" with "They've Killed President Lincoln," Wolper said.

"He created a way to do it properly, and we did a whole series
of those shows." Under the umbrella title "Appointment with
Destiny," Wolper's company made seven one-hour documentaries
that aired on CBS.

Guenette produced four of them: "The Crucifixion of Jesus," "The
Plot to Murder Hitler," "Cortez and Montezuma: Conquest of an
Empire" and "Peary's Race to the North Pole."

"We would not film anything unless a camera could have been
there," said Wolper, adding that "we dirtied up the film so it
didn't look like it was brand new. It looked like a newsreel."

When John Wilkes Booth shoots Lincoln in "They've Killed
President Lincoln,"

Wolper said, it was filmed as if a newsreel crew had been
standing right outside the presidential box at Ford's Theater in
Washington, D.C. "They hear the shot, you see the camera running
in, and the camera whips up and sees Booth" jumping down to the
stage, he said. The camera then follows Lincoln's body as it is
carried across the street and interviews are conducted with
bystanders.

As a producer, Wolper said, Guenette "knew exactly what he was
doing, and he didn't waste any time: He did the work, he did it
terrifically, and he did it on time and on budget."

Born in Holyoke, Mass., on Jan. 12, 1935, Guenette left home at
16 and traveled by bus to New York City to become an actor.
Instead, he joined what he called "the 16-millimeter explosion."

Working his way up from gofer to assistant editor, he became a
film editor for the CBS TV series "Conquest" and "Omnibus." He
later was director and associate producer for NBC's "White
Paper" and "The DuPont Show of the Month" series.

As a network news producer for CBS in 1962, he directed and was
associate producer for "Our War in Vietnam," an early look at
U.S. involvement in the escalating war in Southeast Asia.

In 1994, Guenette and Robert Leeburg co-founded the nonprofit
Los Angeles Media & Education Center, to help bring the diverse
population of Los Angeles together through the arts.

"It was, for him, about giving back to the community," Leeburg
said Tuesday.

In 2001, Guenette received the International Documentary Assn.
Pioneer Award for Distinguished Lifetime Service to the
Documentary Community. Guenette's wife, Frances, who served as
vice president of Robert Guenette Productions, died in 1994.

In addition to Leeburg, Guenette's longtime partner and
colleague, he is survived by his son, Mark D. Guenette; and his
brothers and sisters, Sheila Kurtz and Gary, Terry, Bruce and
Sharon Atwell.

A public celebration of Guenette's life will be held at 2 p.m.
Sunday at 1551 S. Robertson Blvd., Los Angeles.







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   Nov > Nov 5

                  Jac/Jack/Steve Lassiter/Sheridan/Solomon

From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 19:12:08 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:49:47 -0500
Subject: Jac/Jack/Steve Lassiter/Sheridan/Solomon


I had intended to write an article about this character, owner
of Anglia Earth Mysteries (and NOT connected in any way, shape
or form with Norfolk UFO Society (NUFOS). However, John Sayer of
NUFOS appears to have beaten me to it and written an article
about (?-wotsisname?) which can be read at:

http://www.abel.net.uk/~sayer/sol.html

It occurs to me that he may be known under more names (he seems
to have more names than "Old Nick"!), so please take a close
look at the photograph at John's site and see if you know him
under a different name that we don't yet know about. Some of you
will have met him at Rendlesham, where he spends a lot of time
in his camouflaged Ford Transit van. He is also mixing with
croppy, Reiki, channeling, and seemingly any form of new-age
activity groups.

If anyone knows similar characters linked to UK ufology (does
anyone know if Armen Victorian/Henry Azadehdel is still
active?), or has more information about (?wotisname?), feel free
to email me off-list.

I have copied in (?wotisname?) on 6 of the email addresses that
he has used in the past, in order that he can have the
opportunity to explain his multiple identities. If I get a
response, I'll pass it on to the List.


Joe McGonagle

Mail list administrator
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/ufologyinuk







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   Nov > Nov 5

              Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Beau

From: Jerome Beau <jbeau@noos.fr>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 20:23:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:52:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story - Beau


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:31:13 +0000
>Subject: Re: Giant Triangle-Multiple Witness Story

>even the Brazilian Navy investigation of the case seems to
>have been unable to turn up the name of any serving member of
>the crew who actually saw the event. In fact this caused a
>member of the Brazilian federal parliament to complain that
>the investigation was inadequate.


Hello John,

Do you have the source for that ? As far as I know, Magalh=E3es
asked the Brazilian Federal Parliament for informations about
the event. The answer was negative, but not because of an
inability to provide such info : the secret status of such info
prevented to release it [Aur=E9lio Zaluar, "UFO OVNI Documento",
October/December 1979].

>At one point a Brazilian military spokesman is quoted as
>saying that the military had no reason to prevent crew from
>talking about the incident, and it does seem that reporters
>had access to the ship and crew when in docked.

Regarding this point, the "O Estado de Sao Paulo" of February
23rd says: "The 'Saldanha da Gama' sailed this morning before
any newspapermen had a chance to interview crew members about
the incidents at Trindade."


Jerome






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   Nov > Nov 5

               Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:04:14 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:54:56 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 09:56:11 -0800
>Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:18:05 -0600
>>Subject: Re: UFO's Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:59:46 -0800
>>>Subject: UFO's Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

>>>Fellow Listers,

>>>Upon reading the below mentioned article, found here:

>>>http://www.newsleader.com/news/stories/20031030/opinion/547723.html

>>>I felt compelled to write to it's author; below is a copy of the
>>>e-mail I sent to him:

>>Alright Mr. Warren! Another pretending and uninformed proto-
>>dilettante smoked like a cheap cigar! Good Show!


>Dear Mr. Lehmberg & All,

>Thank you! As I mentioned to a good friend and colleague, it's
>very difficult to maintain diplomacy when responding to writings
>such as that of Mr. Pfisterer, however; I do try to give the
>benefit of the doubt, and inform, rather then scold, as his
>ignorance on the subject was blatantly obvious.

The sentiment is wonderful, sir, but it's clear you gave better
than you got. A few more like you and the Committee for the
Seriously Insentient Commitment of Obdurate Persons will have to
work a lot harder to keep their befuddled numbers up! <LOL>


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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                Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 21:54:22 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:06:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Roberts


>From: Judy Jaafar <judy@gaia66.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 20:05:12 -0000
>Subject: Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files

Pilgrims,

Judith wrote:

>All I can entreat you do to is to find out for yourselves what
>the witness testimony really is, and what the original
>investigators filed as official reports. They may or may not
>have come to mistaken conclusions, but they are every bit as
>valid as the conclusions that Roberts and Clarke have come to,
>if not more so. And to say that Clarke is the most detached
>observer of Rendlesham in the UK - well that might be very
>accurate. His detachment is so detached that it might well be
>unattached completely.
>
>Please contact Margaret Fry (the original investigator) for
>Berwyn Mountain, although she is now elderly and infirm, and
>that makes her an easy target for debunkers:
>

I totally agree. Ask Margaret for some evidence, any evidence
other than the anecdotal and she can't provide it. Nor could she
when she wasn't elderly and inform. Because she never collected
any.

She tells a good story, and is quite happy to contradict taped witness
interviews.

If you like stories about aliens that Margaret picked up in 'shops and
pubs', with no taped interviews or indeed any other proof then
Margaret's your girl.

If you believe her annonymous phone calls from annonymous
'military' witnesses, then you should believe Margaret's
view of what took place.

When asked by the R4 people if she could provide any proof
or if it was possible for R4 to meet any witnesses the interchange
went:

Can I meet any of these people?
No.

Have you any proof you can show me?
No.

If that's good enough for you...

>Ronald.fry@btopenworld.com
>
>and Jenny Randles for Rendlesham:
>
>nufon@currantbun.com

I think you'll find that Jenny is broadly in accordance with the sceptical
view on the case. But I'm sure when she is able to she will post her
own comments.

>I have visited Rendlesham myself many times and researched the
>case more than Clarke and Roberys have ever done, and proved to
>my complete satisfaction that the lighthouse was not the
>culprit. I don't believe ETs were responsible either, but that's
>another story altogether.

You certainly have investigated it more than I Judith. But not
more than David I don't believe. If you've proved something to
your (complete) satisfaction that's fine. Your satisfaction
doesn't necessarilyu relate to objective reality (cue ghost of
Colin Bennett in the background).

It's good to see senior BUFORA officers relying on such thorough
evidence and opinion as given above.

Our modus operandi is to use contemperaneous documentation
backed up with on site investigation and taped witness
interviews.

That's clearly not what Margaret does, or what Judith apparently
advocates.

Perhaps Judith (or Margaret) would be  good enough to provide
some non-anecdotal, recorded witness statements with named
individuals, I'll go out, buy a hat and eat it!


Happy Trails

Andy








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               Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:22:04 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:09:16 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:04:14 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 09:56:11 -0800
>>Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:18:05 -0600
>>>Subject: Re: UFO's Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

<snip>

>>>Alright Mr. Warren! Another pretending and uninformed proto-
>>>dilettante smoked like a cheap cigar! Good Show!

>>Dear Mr. Lehmberg & All,

>>Thank you! As I mentioned to a good friend and colleague, it's
>>very difficult to maintain diplomacy when responding to writings
>>such as that of Mr. Pfisterer, however; I do try to give the
>>benefit of the doubt, and inform, rather then scold, as his
>>ignorance on the subject was blatantly obvious.

Dear Mr. Lehmberg & All,

>The sentiment is wonderful, sir, but it's clear you gave
>better than you got.

Tis the story of my life. :^)

>A few more like you and the Committee for the Seriously
>Insentient Commitment of Obdurate Persons will have to work a
>lot harder to keep their befuddled numbers up! <LOL>

I'm afraid the membership of the CSICOP is quite large, in fact;
some aren't even aware of their initiation, but that attribute
is looked upon with admiration within the order. :^))

>Lehmberg@snowhill.com


Cheers,

Frank Warren

Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est







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               Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:54:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:14:40 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 12:59:46 -0800
>Subject: UFO's Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

>Fellow Listers,

>Upon reading the below mentioned article, found here:

>http://www.newsleader.com/news/stories/20031030/opinion/547723.html

>I felt compelled to write to it's author; below is a copy of the
>e-mail I sent to him:


>Dear Mr. Pfisterer,

>After reading your article, "UFO's Still Have Plenty of True
>Believers," I too felt motivated to take the time to make
>comment. First, I must say that I kept a smile on my face while
>reading your article; I guess that means I enjoyed it.

Thanks for taking the time to try to inform the uninformed.
However, it appears that Mr. Pf.... "obeys" one of Friedman's
rules for debunkers: don't bother me with the data, my mind is
made up.

I often ponder the deep philosphical question, "Should I write
to this guy?" when I see a load of malarky in the press. I
usually conclude that it would do no good. He won't really pay
attention anyway. But I appreciate your effort to straighten him
out... at least a little bit.








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   Nov > Nov 6

                          List Address Change Today

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 06:50:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 06:50:59 -0500
Subject: List Address Change Today




Gentle Subscriber,

As of 18:00 Eastern today, the ufoupdates@sympatico.ca List
address will no longer be valid. The address will revert to:

ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

please adjust your address books accordingly and ensure that the
'To:' line in out-bound submissions for the List reflect the
change.

Later today any mail addressed to the @sympatico address will
bounce.

I cannot stress how pleased I am to be leaving Sympatico's
'service', along with many, many other Sympatico users who have
been subjected to totally un-caring mis-management by a
complacent corporate giant.


Errol Bruce-Knapp
Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto
ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net







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   Nov > Nov 6

                          'Contrail' Info Requested

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 01:08:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 06:51:50 -0500
Subject: 'Contrail' Info Requested



Hi all,

Last year Peter Davenport reported the following from CNN. Does
anyone have additional information for this?

Thanks,

Don Ledger

    **

National UFO Reporting Center Sighting Report
Occurred : 11/27/2002 16:00 (Entered as : 11/27/02)
Reported: 11/28/2002 6:33:29 PM 18:33
Posted: 12/23/2002
Location: Turks,
Shape: Unknown
Duration:

This is a link to a cnn.com report on a mysterious contrail.

I saw this report on cnn.com and thought I would pass it along:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Central/11/28/contrail.scramble/index.html

((TEXT OF CNN NEWS STORY APPEARS BELOW))

NORAD investigates vapor trail reports
Thursday, November 28, 2002 Posted: 5:52 PM EST (2252 GMT)


COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado (CNN) -- Fighter jets scrambled in an
unsuccessful attempt to investigate a contrail of unknown origin
first seen over the Caribbean and later reported over the
midwestern United States, the Department of Defense said
Thursday.

The North American Aerospace Defense Command scrambled the jets
soon after unverified reports were received around 4 p.m.
Wednesday that the contrail, seen near the Turks and Caicos
Islands, was headed northwest toward the United States, said Lt.
Cmdr. Curtis Jenkins, a spokesman for the Colorado Springs-based
group.

A contrail is a white trail of condensed water vapor that
sometimes forms in the wake of an aircraft.

The jets were scrambled from more than one base and more than
one location, he said, though he did not know how many jets or
from how many locations.

Commercial airline pilots later reported the contrail over
Florida and then over Indiana, after which no more sightings
were reported, he said.

The jets attempted to intercept and identify the source of the
contrail, but no visual or confirmed radar contact was made, he
added.

"I don't know that anybody was predisposed to think it might be
some thing or the other," he said. "We don't even know that it
was a thing. It was just simply reports of contrails. We don't
even know that it was the same one. We had reports from
different places and NORAD did its job and tried to find out."

NORAD is coordinating with the Federal Aviation Administration
and is continuing to investigate the reports, he added.

-----








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   Nov > Nov 7

                  Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <editor@perceptions.couk.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 16:15:52 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 19:40:22 -0500
Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Dickenson


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 07:13:22 -0000
>Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme

>All those who either think they *should* have been
>involved immediately slide out of the woodwork in an attempt
>to raise their stock. This gives them the illusion that their
>absence from these programs was in some way inconsequential or
>immaterial, when in reality, as I previously noted, it's just
>sour grapes. You have fun with Channel 5 Nick. I'm sure
>'Monster Films'' documentary will be just as revlealing as the
>Radio 4 program.

Hello Andy, and All,

Typically passage of time allows some evidence to emerge, but
also permits the obscuring and suppression of sensitive stuff.

We see wild claims being made - and famously debunked while the
issue is still live - but only much, much later does it emerge
that those were planted and sponsored by people in the
establishment or by `security' agents - see:

http://www.perceptions.couk.com/uef/wb2.html

Looking at totality of the Berwyn event we see:

a) reports of mystery lights in sky / mystery helicopters etc
over wide area of NW UK for some months before - ceasing at the
Berwyn event.

b) on the night, amateur astronomers reported anomalous low-
flying "meteors" from various parts of UK (one chap in eastern
England phoned a colleage to the west and between them got a
track on their "meteor" - it was headed towards the Berwyns
(point X).

[a) and b) have been suppressed in the record - mainstream
scientists are easily scared by establishment threats of
ridicule - see http://www.perceptions.couk.com/ukgmbias.txt]

c) on the night, a medium strength "earthquake" at point X.

d) on the night, cirling "lights in the sky" above point X.

e) on the night, "large circle of orange light" (with smaller
white lights moving around it) at point X.

f) on the night and long afterwards, "establishment/security"
presence - under various deniable guises - at and around point
X.

g) years afterwards - a continuing "refurbishing" of the
records, and maybe more importantly, continuing alteration of
perceptions of the event - the BBC program being only the
latest. (to check the ease with which memory is altered - see
http://www.perceptions.couk.com/percepts.html#realities)

Detailed perceptions of the Berwyn event seems to be following
an all too familiar descent into obfuscation, but, from a
longer-range and wider viewpoint, the events - however reported
or "explained" - are statistically anomalous to say the least.
Indeed b) seems an especially impossible "explanation" - since
meteorites may explode or diverge but _never_ converge with
other meteorites. Ask astronomers for the odds on rocks from
different parts of the universe agreeing to meet up over a Welsh
mountain!

Only recently began examining UFO scene, but am struck by the
obscuration and obfuscation in this area of general scientific
interest (if you've got questions re: "Perceptions" science
`agenda' you can check:

http://www.perceptions.couk.com/answers5.html#gulf).


Best regards,

Ray Dickenson

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
real mail is CC'd edfile@perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
recipients can prevent abuse by fake / frauds
FWD dodgy / fake mail for tracing by your ISP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                 Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 12:06:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 19:46:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Sandow


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 12:57:57 -0800
>Subject: Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update

<snip>

>The drawings are exact rendering of the actual terrain and the
>unusual material on rocks and ledges. There is more than a trace
>of the cristobalite. There are tons of it scattered over a large
>area and this deposit is the only one like it in the world as
>far as I can tell. Cristobaite is not found under these
>conditions, no matter what Ray Stanford would like to have you
>believe.

<snip>

Ed, as ever, you're doing great work on this. Congrats, and I'm
looking forward to seeing even more evidence. Is there any
chance a scientific team can retrace your steps, and support
your conclusions?







                         The UFO UpDates Archive
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 7

               Re: Trindade Scientific Update [was: Trindade]

From: Brad Sparks
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 20:31:18 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:05:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update [was: Trindade]


http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m05-001.shtml

>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 00:30:43 -0300
>Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 07:10:00 -0500
>Subject: Re: Trindade - Mori


>>From: Brad Sparks
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 00:18:34 EST
>>Subject: Re: Trindade

>>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:12:49 -0300
>>>Subject: Trindade
<snip>

>>Hi Ken,

>>Why are you referring to these outrageous debunking attacks,
>>especially Noguez's as "superb and detailed" and "excellent" (as
>>you state on your website)?? Noguez's is the most appalling I
>>have ever seen - he wants to have the Trindade photos hoaxed by
>>THREE HOAXING METHODS at the same time - montage AND double-
>>exposure AND photography of cloud-vapor covered aircraft
>>SIMULTANEOUSLY!! You can't have all three hoaxing techniques at
>>the same time, or at the same time in this particular case
>>(montage and double exposure are simply physically inconsistent
>>and mutually exclusive). Even the infamous CSICOP would not dare
>>to propound such Menzelian pseudoscience, though debunkers do
>>tend to operate on the principle that several bad explanations
>>are better than having no good single explanation. Anti-UFO
>>pseudoscience is matched only by the pro-UFO pseudoscience of
>>GSW which still gets cited as if legitimate even after the
>>scandalous Calgary photos blunder years ago exposed it all as a
>>sham - why not cite George Adamski as a serious photoanalyst??

>>If Noguez had any scientific understanding of optical physics
>>and photography he would realize that it is physically
>>impossible to make a double exposure darker than the surrounding
>>sky - you cannot subtract light in a double exposure you can
>>only add light! It is a fundamental fact of science and math,
>>addition is not subtraction (C. B. Moore please take note!). So
>>far he has successfully hidden behind the Spanish language so
>>that English language analysts generally remain unaware of these
>>scientifically absurd claims and thus haven't taken them apart.


Hi Ken,

I see no response to the fact that Noguez proposes the
pseudoscientific notion that a double exposure could subtract
light and create a darker object in the Trindade photos. Can you
find any competent photographer or optical physicist who will
say that a double exposure can _subtract_ light?? Find me one
Ken!

>>As for the "similarity" of Trindade Photos 1 and 2 when
>>inverted, you admit they are not identical, just "similar."
>>Therefore the debunker hoax theory that the photographer took
>>tiny little pieces of film-emulsion with identical copy images
>>of a hoaxed UFO only about 1/10 inch (2 mm) in size and stupidly
>>pasted one upside down by accident onto photos of Trindade
>>island background is exploded as utter nonsense. The images are
>>not identical, upside down or not, so they are not some kind of
>>hoaxer paste-up error.

>>And all this photo-montage pasting would have had to be done in
>>a hurried hoax while inside a makeshift darkroom aboard the
>>Brazilian Navy ship just minutes after the UFO sighting without
>>any "UFO" being sighted. And then the hoaxed UFO images would
>>have to pass muster with the Navy witnesses to the UFO (when
>>there wasn't a "UFO" ??) who were shown the freshly developed
>>photos by the Trindade post commander immediately afterwards and
>>who confirmed it looked like what they saw (didn't see??). In
>>bright light on deck in mid-day with everyone staring at the UFO
>>images on the negatives anything looking like pieces of film
>>with fake UFO images glued on top of each island scene photo
>>would have been glaringly obvious.

>>From the classified CONFIDENTIAL intelligence report of March 3,
>>1958, of Fleet Adm. Antonio Maria de Carvalho, Chief of the
>>Brazilian Naval High Command, to the Navy Minister, prepared by
>>intelligence officer Corvette-Capt. Jose Geraldo Brandao
>>(emphasis added):

>>viii. Afterwards, the negatives referred to were shown to
>>members of the SHIP'S CREW who had witnessed the phenomenon;
>>they RECOGNIZED THE OBJECT appearing in the photos as identical
>>with the one they had sighted in the air;

>>xi. A strong emotional upset was observed in all persons who
>>SIGHTED the object, including the photographer, civilians and
>>members of the SHIP'S CREW.

Here again Ken I see no response from you to these facts in the
Brazilian Naval High Command's March 3, 1958, report to the Navy
Minister confirming that Navy crew members witnessing the UFO
phenomenon shown in the Trindade photos.

>>I have measured what appears to be rapid rotational motion at
>>the extreme edges of the object, amounting to something on the
>>order of 400 to 800 degs/sec around a central axis, and the
>>angular velocity of rotation changes from photo to photo (hence
>>my 400 to 800 degs/sec figures). Thus in the approximately 2
>>seconds between photos estimated by reenactments conducted by
>>the Brazilian Air Force with the photographer, the UFO could
>>very easily have flipped over 180 degrees.

>>Sorry Ken, the UFO was reported wobbling in flight and my
>>analysis shows it was displaying very extreme rotational motion,
>>so it simply must have wobbled so far it flipped over. So it
>>should look similar but not identical - due to differing object
>>motion blur and differing atmospheric haze between Photos 1 and
>>2 - and should look upside down. The photos show the UFO turned
>>upside down so that is what happened - the object turned upside
>>down.

>>By the way Sunderland went on board the Brazilian Navy ship
>>after it docked hoping to confirm it was all a hoax - and was
>>discombobulated to find that the Navy officers he talked to
>>confirmed that the UFO incident did occur. Sunderland tried to
>>denigrate that fact but couldn't.


>Hi,

>I'm very glad that you recognized the similarity between the
>images of the UFO. Here in Brazil, I couldn't find one ufologist
>who dared to admit that as something relevant.

>But please allow me to say that your suggested explanation to
>this similarity has some problems. You suggest that the UFO
>flipped upside down, and this explains why its image seems to be
>inverted on two consecutive photos. You realize that this
>hypothesis implicate that this was a peculiar type of UFO, where
>the presumed shadows also get upside down along with it. I guess
>you must admit that this is an odd ad hoc explanation.


You do not discuss my measurements of roughly 400 to 800
degs/sec rotational blurring. You need to get out of the 50's
mindset of pseudoscientific debunkery and move into the world of
21st century science. I measured the rotational blur on the
Trindade UFO long before I found Martin Powell's theory of
inversion of the images from Photos 1 to 2. The physical
flipping over of an actual object in motion explains the
otherwise unexplained violent 400-800 degs/sec rotation. A
hoaxer accidentally inverting a paste-up UFO image on a photo
does not create any blurring and so hoaxing does not explain the
violent rotational blurring.

Thus the flipping over of the object is not an "ad hoc"
explanation simply designed to explain away some difficulty, but
is a logical physical consequence of the measured rotation which
was discovered first before anything about the image
"inversion." This is scientific reasoning. The rotational
blurring at the edges is physical evidence supporting the fact
the object flipped over. There are no "shadows" in the overcast
sky illumination -- here you are refuted even by debunker Capt.
Sunderlund who admits "the disc ... shows no shadow effect."
There is a dark patch on the bottom or top of the object
(depending on the flipping) which is obviously too dark and too
small to be a shadow, and is in an exposed location rather than
under a sheltered spot under say the equatorial "Saturn ring"
(of course it is not actually the shape of Saturn or its rings
but this is a handy term of reference). .

The telltale giveaway that this is rotational blurring (as with
an object flipping over) is the fact the blurring is greatest at
the extreme edges of the object and that the image at those
edges is dispersed up-and-down vertically in the direction of
the rotational motion rather than laterally as with rectilinear
bulk motion of the object in flight (which is also present, see
below). The amount of rotational blur is proportional to the
distance from the axis of rotation. The farther away from the
center the more the blur, an unmistakable effect.

Why is the UFO "dome" approximately 30% flatter in Photo 2 and
than in Photo 3? You need to explain this needless complication
in any hoax theory Ken. If it was a hoaxer taking duplicate
photos of the same object why would the shape change at all? How
can you explain that from a debunking perspective? Anyone can
see the UFO is flatter initially. The answer is simple: The
object came in at high speed then slowed down, so the initial
images show LATERAL MOTION BLUR (contrary to Capt. Sunderland's
nonsense that there was "no lateral blurring as would occur with
any reasonable shutter speed").

Here is where quantitative science comes in, listen carefully
now: The amount of flattening is a lengthening of the object in
the horizontal direction of flight motion of at minimum
approximately 0.3 degree of subtended arc (the dome is about 1
deg wide at widest, 30% of 1 deg is 0.3 deg), which occurs
during the 1/125th second exposure time. Therefore, based on
linear-motion-blur the object is traveling about 37 degs/sec
across the sky (125 x 0.3 =3D 37.5 degs/sec). It's simple physics.

Completely independent of that linear-motion-blur measurement I
measured the flight path of the UFO in the sequence of photos
and found it moved very roughly 50 degrees between Photos 1 and
2 across the sky over the ocean and the Trindade island, as it
started slowing down according to the witnesses' testimonies,
and it is about 25 degrees between Photos 2 and 3, showing that
indeed the UFO did slow down just as the witnesses stated. The
Brazilian Navy reenactment with photographer Bara=FAna arrived at
an estimate of about 2 seconds between each photo, hence the
rough AVERAGE angular velocity of the UFO between the first two
photos is about 25 degs/sec, slowing to about 12 degs/sec
between the second and third photos. Therefore the PEAK angular
velocity could well have been 37 degs/sec or more depending on
the variations of speed, to average out to 25 degs/sec over the
entire interval between the first two photos.

This is in exact agreement with the completely independent
linear-motion-blur analysis: The linear-motion blur that
lengthens and flattens the "dome" indicates the UFO was moving
at about 37 degs/sec. The flight path across the sky shows the
angular velocity reached a peak of roughly 37 degs/sec, perfect
agreement to well within any order-of-magnitude error margins in
this preliminary analysis. This is quantitative science Ken, not
debunking pseudoscience.

How did the supposed hoaxer Bara=FAna manage to arrange the photo
images of a supposedly nonexistent UFO to so closely simulate
and conform to the realistic physics and flight dynamics of an
actual high speed UFO-type object in complex motion -- when he
certainly did not know or understand such scientific principles
and no one on earth until today in 2003 has ever even discussed
these parameters of the Trindade photos before??? Needless to
say any "Twin Bonanza" civil aircraft rotating at 400-800
degs/sec is a doomed vehicle with a life expectancy of seconds
before crash impact or midair disintegration and was not
photographed here.

But there is more.

The Brazilian Navy IGY vessel Almirante Saldanha with
photographer Bara=FAna aboard was anchored approximately 1 km from
the island mountains that the witnesses reported the UFO flew
over and circled around before heading back out to sea. With
this rough distance to the UFO the approximate angular
velocities I measured (above) varying from around 12 to 37
degs/sec will give us the UFO's actual linear speed. Simple
physics calculation shows the speed of the UFO at that distance
would therefore have been roughly 500 to 1,400 mph, based on two
independent methods of analysis. The MOTION BLUR analysis gives
the high 1,400 mph speed at 1 km distance because it is easier
to see and measure the maximum speed blurring than it is to see
blurring at slow speed. The PHOTOGRAPHIC ANGULAR DISPLACEMENT
analysis gives the varying 500 to 1,400 mph speeds at 1 km
distance.

It just so happens that the Brazilian Naval intelligence
service's reconstruction of the object's flight path over the
island and timed reenactments with Bara=FAna at the Cruzeiro do
Sul Aerophotogrammetric Service in Feb. 1958 resulted in an
estimated speed of 900 to 1,000 km/hr or about 600 mph roughly,
an overall average speed through the photo sequence -- again in
perfect agreement with the two methods of analysis I performed
giving a varying speed from about 500 to 1,400 mph.

The Cruzeiro do Sul Aerophotogrammetric Service also examined
the original negatives and found no evidence of fraud or
tampering. Nor do I find any evidence of photomontage or other
hoaxing and I specifically must refer to the fact that there is
no evidence whatsoever of DIFFERING GRAIN STRUCTURE or GRAIN
DENSITY between the film inside the UFO images and the
surrounding sky, nor any sign of EDGES of a photomontage paste-
on. This is regardless of whether Bara=FAna might have
rephotographed a supposed photomontage to hide the pieces of
hoaxed "UFO image" film glued on top of the original negatives -
- the edges of the pieces of film and the differing grain
structure would still show up. The reason this is so is very
simple: Film negative is transparent or translucent not opaque,
hence the pasting of a transparent or translucent piece of fake
"UFO film" on top of the negatives of the Trindade island
scenery would effectively DOUBLE THE GRAIN DENSITY because you
would now see BOTH the grains of the "UFO image" superimposed
over the grains of the underlying original negative, with very
few instances of a grain on top perfectly positioned to hide a
grain (of usually widely varying size) on bottom. In 1958 no one
even dreamed of anyone analyzing this kind of thing. With
today's optical scanning and enhancement systems one can examine
grain structure of film down to micron resolution level on a
desktop computer.

So your hoax theories are toast from a scientific standpoint.
The grain density and structure of the UFO images are an
integral part of the Trindade island photography, and must have
been photographed together, at the same time, and a photomontage
is thus an impossibility. Again I must point out a double-
exposure is also a physical impossibility because double
exposures cannot subtract light and darken the image. When I
began my latest investigation I believed that examination of
first-generation copies would immediately reveal signs of hoax
and settle the controversy. That did not prove to be the case
(unlike Barra da Tijuca which is conclusively a hoax).

Scientific studies by my Trindade Research Project in the U.S.,
with help from many abroad, are still underway and will not be
ready for publication until next year some time, at present
estimates. Hence I cannot provide more beyond this preliminary
report at present, but believe me many more surprises are in
store besides the above. Quantitative values are being further
refined and error margins established and reduced as further
research tightens the photographic parameters. Many studies are
under way including topographic, photogrammetric, photometric,
and historical investigations. It is time-consuming and
expensive, and without major resources of large institutions
with big budgets.


>Could it be? Maybe. A few gentle people already e-mailed me with
>the same explanation for the inversion, which means that a few
>more people also recognized the similarity and the apparent
>inversion, and to explain that, they also seriously consider a
>flipping UFO who also manages to flip its image, from different
>angles, distances and speeds.

>In any case, before we get into explaining the inversion, we
>must first confirm it. I repeat that I'm very glad that you and
>others recognized the similarity, something that a lot of people
>may have deliberately denied. But this similarity has to be
>analyzed on first prints, and if possible - and wherever they
>may be -- on the original negatives. I urge anyone who has acess
>to first prints to analyze this and share the results.

I have been analyzing first-generation prints made from the
negatives from two different sources.

>I must answer your question of why I referred to Noguez's work as
>"excellent", "superb and detailed". That's obviously because I
>think it is so. You say that Noguez "wants ... three hoaxing
>methods at the same time". From what I read, Noguez suggested
>these methods, not necessarily at the same time.

Sorry you read it dead wrong, Noguez combines all three mutually
exclusive and contradictory hoaxing theories into one rambling
discombobulated scenario: In his "Conclusion" section, Noguez
flatout asserts as fact, not suggestion or hypothesis, that the
friends of photographer Bara=FAna suggested to him doing a hoax
after they listened to UFO stories while on Trindade island
during the week of Jan. 8-16, 1958, purportedly taking advantage
of reports of EM effects, etc. (how were EM effects part of the
photo hoax??). Noguez then claims that they wanted to use photos
of a mist-covered Twin Bonanza aircraft (supposedly "saucer
looking") but that they did not have any such aircraft photos on
board the ship. There is in fact not a shred of evidence anyone
took any such Twin Bonanza photos or that such photos ever
existed in Brazil, this is a theory concocted by Martin Powell
in 1999, the first anyone heard of it. And Powell's theory,
which Noguez does not dispute in any way, is that of a DOUBLE
EXPOSURE of the hypothetical fogged-Twin Bonanza aircraft
superimposed on the Trindade island backdrop -- a scientific and
physical impossibility because as I've pointed out a double
exposure cannot subtract light to render a darkened image it can
only add light.

So Noguez asserts that they had to make a "substitution" of the
film of the Trindade island inside Bara=FAna's Rolleiflex camera
with the film of the Twin Bonanza. But how then would this new
film show any Trindade island scenery if that island film was
what was being taken out as useless? And WHAT FILM of the Twin
Bonanza?? Noguez had just said that no such Twin Bonanza film
was on board the ship, utterly contradicting himself! Noguez
then goes on totally oblivious to this flagrant impossibility
and absurdity: He says this "substitution" of film would be done
by Bara=FAna through the trickery of "prestidigitation," that
Bara=FAna would also do the "photomontage" and take the photos,
and that they had to find the right moment to make the film
switch. If Bara=FAna was simply switching film of a saucer-like
fogged Twin Bonanza with the Trindade scene film, why did he
need to do a "photomontage" too?? You only would do a
photomontage aboard the ship if you are trying to alter an image
on film that is retained in some sort of custody, which is not
necessary if you are completely switching rolls of film.

Noguez completely omits the crucial fact here that the ship's
captain suddenly decided to order the IMMEDIATE DEVELOPMENT of
the UFO photos right on board the ship right after his crew had
seen the UFO -- despite the fact the ship HAD NO DARKROOM. How
could the hypothetical hoaxers, Bara=FAna and Company, have
possibly anticipated the captain's decision to immediately
develop the UFO film, that was sure to risk exposing any hoax or
skullduggery??? This meant Bara=FAna could not at his leisure
concoct a photo hoax back at home in his own lab with all the
time and equipment at his disposal over days or weeks. Here he
would have had to hurriedly carry out the hoax in the 10 minutes
he was inside the ship's lavatory turned into a darkroom on the
spot. He would not have available any prepositioned materials
for a hoax in this darkroom because it did not exist as a
darkroom moments before.

And let me remind you that the Navy personnel verified that the
UFO film images matched what crew members had just seen minutes
before. Again, from the classified CONFIDENTIAL intelligence
report of March 3, 1958, of Fleet Adm. de Carvalho, Chief,
Brazilian Naval High Command, to the Navy Minister, prepared by
the Naval intelligence service (emphasis added):


"viii. Afterwards, the negatives referred to were shown to
members of the SHIP'S CREW who had WITNESSED the phenomenon;
they RECOGNIZED THE OBJECT appearing IN THE PHOTOS as IDENTICAL
with the one they had SIGHTED in the air;"


Still oblivious to this pastiche of logical impossibility,
Noguez goes on to assert that the "moment" for switching film in
Bara=FAna's Rolleiflex camera came when Bara=FAna's friends created
a ruckus on deck pretending to see a UFO when supposedly there
was none, on Jan. 16, 1958. Bara=FAna "pretended" to take UFO
photos, claims Noguez. Well again WHAT FILM was being switched
into the camera as a hoax? Again, as I just pointed out, Noguez
admits they did not have any photos of a fog-shrouded Twin
Bonanza (and could hardly have anticipated Powell's theory 40
years into the future in any case).

Yet Noguez keeps insisting on inserting this Powell double-
exposure-fogged-aircraft hoax theory into the story where it
does not fit -- read Noguez' article don't take my word for it.
So why did they need to make a film "substitution" or switch at
all? Substituting what for what??? Why did Bara=FAna need to do a
"photomontage" aboard the ship as Noguez keeps insisting? Where
did Bara=FAna supposedly get his fake "UFO images" to mount in a
photomontage onto the negatives of Trindade island scenes in the
10 minutes he had in the makeshift darkroom? What the hell is
Noguez trying to say in all this babbling slanderous nonsense!!!
One thing is for sure though, if you keep saying words amounting
to hoaxing, lying, fraud, enough times in a paragraph it doesn't
matter whether it makes any logical sense or not, the message
conveyed to the lay person will be slanderous (and I include
written media in "slander").

>You also say
>that the has "successfully hidden behind the Spanish language so
>that English language analysts generally remain unaware ... and
>thus haven't taken them apart". I do recognize the importance of
>the English language, but to say that anything that isn't in
>English is being maliciously "hidden" is to go a bit too far.

I didn't say it was "malicious" but I will say it is
"convenient" that Noguez' pseudoscience remains inaccessible to
English language researchers who cannot translate from Spanish,
and therefore have had no opportunity to dissect and refute his
farrago of nonsense. It is not my responsibility to translate
Noguez' work it is his responsibility as the author -- and even
more so it is his responsibility to remove all the colossal and
ridiculous scientific errors and falsehoods (again double
exposures cannot subtract light so anyone such as Noguez
asserting double exposure as even a "possibility" in the
Trindade case is peddling pseudoscience as bad as anything
coming from George Adamski or GSW).


>Other than that, you write that the UFO was only a couple of
>milimeters, and in the same message quotes that the members of
>the ship's crew recognized it. Some eye. Noguez mentioned this
>curious element on his work, including a graphical representation
>of the UFO on the negatives, which he represented as a "-". Of
>course, this lacks much precision, as we all know that even in an
>enlarged photo the UFO is not very clear, and that Barauna spoke
>about how he had to treat the film to make the UFO more visible,
>so in the original, untreated negative we may presume that it
>probably was a very blurred and unclear "-". Some eye indeed.

<snip>

My point was that _handling_ pieces of film possibly as small as
2 mm or 1/10 inch in size would be extremely difficult to do and
to paste onto dripping wet negatives just developed, all in 10
minutes' time inside a tiny ship's lavatory turned into a
darkroom moments before.

I did not say it would be difficult to _see_ such a small piece of
film, and the suggestion is patently ludicrous.

Do you know anything about optics or physics??

If you have normal 20/20 vision, a 2 mm object held out at arm's
length is about 1/3 the full-Moon in size, do you seriously
expect me to believe no one aboard the Brazilian IGY ship could
see that?? And to increase the UFO image's apparent size to
_twice_ the Full Moon just hold the damn thing four inches from
your face and you'll be able to see all the details of the UFO
image's shape.

Sometimes I read the most ridiculous arguments and this one is
at the top of the heap. If you cannot see the UFO image on the
film even at four inches from your face then you might just have
20/200 vision or worse, and be legally _blind_ to say nothing of





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 7

                        Back Issues UK UFO Magazine?

From: Keith Chester <projectbluebook@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 05:07:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:14:24 -0500
Subject: Back Issues UK UFO Magazine?



Hello List,

Does anyone have any of Graham Birdsall's UFO Magazine issues
they would like to sell?

I'm looking for two issues. Will pay full newsstand price.


Thanks,

Keith







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                  Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <editor@perceptions.couk.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 14:08:33 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:22:19 -0500
Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Dickenson


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 07:13:22 -0000
>Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme

>All those who either think they *should* have been
>involved immediately slide out of the woodwork in an attempt
>to raise their stock. This gives them the illusion that their
>absence from these programs was in some way inconsequential or
>immaterial, when in reality, as I previously noted, it's just
>sour grapes. You have fun with Channel 5 Nick. I'm sure
>'Monster Films'' documentary will be just as revlealing as the
>Radio 4 program.

Hello Andy and All,

Quick PS to last (6th or 7th Nov)

Today's "Feedback" (BBC R4 13:30 GMT) contained unanimous
criticism of the program for its "dumbed-down debunking"
approach.

The production team refused to come and answer the criticism but
issued a prepared statement which revealed more than they meant
to.

It claimed absolute impartiality but concluded that the Berwyn
event had a more "rational" (non-UFO) explanation.

BBC team admitted (unwittingly) that they (and Andy?) think the
UFO subject is "irrational"

So much for BBC impartiality


Best regards,

Ray Dickenson

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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real mail is CC'd edfile@perceptions.couk.com
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                  Re: 'Contrail' Info Requested - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 11:13:20 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:24:06 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Contrail' Info Requested - Balaskas


>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 01:08:18 -0400
>Subject: 'Contrail' Info Requested

<snip>

>Last year Peter Davenport reported the following from CNN. Does
>anyone have additional information for this?

<snip>

>http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Central/11/28/contrail.scramble/index.html

>((TEXT OF CNN NEWS STORY APPEARS BELOW))

>NORAD investigates vapor trail reports
>Thursday, November 28, 2002 Posted: 5:52 PM EST (2252 GMT)

<snip>

Hi Don!

I forwarded your e-mail to my friend Dr. Wayne Evans, an adjunct
professor in atmospheric science at York University and
scientist with the Canadian Government who has direct knowledge
of such matters (he has observed and recorded rapidly forming
contrails at altitudes higher than known aircraft can fly).
Below is a somewhat cryptic reply Wayne sent to me this morning
regarding my request for his comments or any new leads about
this mysterious vapour trail that NORAD investigated.

"There was a JAG episode on TV on channel 11 about a month ago
where he was flying the Aurora aircraft at Mach6 over North
Korea. See that episode and it will tell you all. Wayne"

A few years ago during a talk here at York University by
Canadian astronaut Col. Chris Hadfield, he told us that when he
was with NORAD's 425 Squadron, he was often sent out to
intercept such knowns. On one such occasion he intercepted a
long range Soviet Bear bomber with his CF-18 fighter which he
escorted back out of Canadian airspace.


Nick Balaskas







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               New NIDS Paper From Jacques Vallee & Eric Davis

From: Colm Kelleher <nids@anv.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:50:07 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:27:51 -0500
Subject: New NIDS Paper From Jacques Vallee & Eric Davis


For Ufologists and SETI people to ponder. Here is the abstract.
The full paper is on the What's New section of the NIDS website:

http://www.nidsci.org

Regards
Colm Kelleher
NIDS


Incommensurability, Orthodoxy and the Physics of High
Strangeness:

A 6-layer Model for Anomalous Phenomena

by

Jacques F. Vallee and Eric W. Davis
National Institute for Discovery Science
Las Vegas, Nevada


Abstract

The main argument presented in this paper is that continuing
study of unidentified aerial phenomena ("UAP"), including
"apparitions" of a religious or spiritual nature, may offer an
existence theorem for new models of physical reality.

The current SETI paradigm and its "assumption of mediocrity"
place restrictions on forms of non-human intelligence that may
be researched in our environment.

A similar bias exists in the ufologists' often-stated hypothesis
that UAP, if real, must represent space visitors.

Observing that both models are biased by anthropomorphism, the
authors attempt to clarify the issues surrounding "high
strangeness" observations by distinguishing six layers of
information that can be derived from anomalous events, namely

(1) physical manifestations,
(2) anti-physical effects,
(3) psychological factors,
(4) physiological factors,
(5) psychic effects and
(6) cultural effects.

In a further step they propose a framework for scientific
analysis of unidentified phenomena that takes into account the
incommensurability problem.








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                   Re: Andros Island Case? - Sanchez-Ocejo

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 18:31:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:59:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Andros Island Case? - Sanchez-Ocejo


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:23:55 -0700
>Subject: Re: Andros Island Case?

>>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 22:09:17 -0300
>>Subject: Andros Island Case?

>>Does anyone have any data or information about a UFO filmed over
>>Andros Island in the Bahamas?

>>I'm trying to find out if the photographer is still alive.

>Hello Virgilio:

>Do you have a date for this, at least an approximate one?



May 21, 1996 - Andros Island, Golden Key.

I'm looking to see if the UFOs filmed had the "UMMO" logo )-(

If so, I will try to contact witnesses.


Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center








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                     Re: Pope On A (Radio 4) Rope - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 14:43:06 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 10:38:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Pope On A (Radio 4) Rope - Hale


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 17:13:32 -0000
>Subject: Pope On A (Radio 4) Rope

>If Nick doesn't agree with this version of events I suggest he
>provides us with his checkable facts which back his claim up.
>With his 'professional relationship' with David and Jerry this
>shouldn't be too much of a problem!

>Otherwise he should tell the truth. What this says about the
>nature of anything in Nick's books is open to speculation.

All,

I feel the 21st Century Ufologist should always let the world
know exactly how the media got in touch with you, and if you did
not make the call yourself, then this is unacceptable in these
times of competing media frenzy - just think, you could get your
opinion aired before your opponent!

And perhaps when on the radio, they might also like to discuss
UFOs.


Roy

"The trouble with facts is that there are so many of them."
              --Samuel McChord Crothers, The Gentle Reader







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                    Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 17:05:03 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 09:56:12 -0500
Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Pope


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 07:13:22 -0000
>Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme

>>From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 01:28:24 -0000
>>Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme

>>I'm afraid that with Brenda Butler talking about
>>interdimensional portals, and you and Dave Clarke talking about
>>flying lighthouses, this came across as 'Battle of the Buffs',
>>with the neutrals laughing at the fanatical dogmatism prevalent
>>at the opposite and extreme ends of the belief spectrum.

>>Have another listen to the programme, and I think you'll realise
>>that the Radio 4 team were deliberately setting the die-hard
>>sceptics against the true believers, and ever so slightly
>>sending all of you up in the process.

>Well, you're entitled to your opinions Nick, despite not
>answering any of the questions you raised.

>It's most amusing to see how, every time sensible well
>documented research is presented in the media, what happens.

>All those who either think they *should* have been involved
>immediately slide out of the woodwork in an attempt to raise
>their stock. This gives them the illusion that their absence
>from these programs was in some way inconsequential or
>immaterial, when in reality, as I previously noted, it's just
>sour grapes. You have fun with Channel 5 Nick. I'm sure 'Monster
>Films'' documentary will be just as revlealing as the Radio 4
>program.

List,

This is Andy's second reference to Monster Films in recent
posts. A previous post also referred to Channel 5 as being
famous for its soft core porn. The inference seems to be that a
UFO documentary made by a production company with a funky name,
and appearing on Channel 5, will be light entertainment as
opposed to a serious documentary.

The quality of any UFO documentary depends on a number of
variables. These include the ability of the researchers, the
technical staff, the producer and director; the size of the
budget; the time available for the project; the consultant used,
etc.

The background to all this is that I'm involved with a UFO
documentary being made for Channel 5, while Andy's involved with
one being made for BBC 2's Timewatch series.

Both these programmes will be aired next year. I hope that
everyone judges them on content, not by the channel on which
they're broadcast, or the name of the production company.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope






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                            Yukon Triangle Report

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 13:44:20 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 10:22:26 -0500
Subject: Yukon Triangle Report


Mount McDonald, The Yukon, Canada

Date: October 21, 2003
Time: 3:00 a.m.

I received a report from Peter B. Davenport at the NUFORC:

http://www.ufocenter.com/

as he thought I might like to look into this sighting report.
I would like to thank him for allowing me to look into this
case.


Original report from Peter:

While packing out on a sheep hunt in the Yukon Territory at 3:00
o'clock in the morning my guide and I saw a cluster of lights
moving across the sky at about 20 degrees above the horizon. I
told the guide here comes an airplane. He said "that is odd"
because we were in the upper part of the Yukon near Mount
McDonald and you do not see many airplanes there especially at 3
in the morning. Suddenly the cluster of light stopped dead still
in the sky. It appeared to be about 3 miles away. Then it
started darting around, up and down, then sideways. Then stopped
again. We watched it for about 5 min then it darted around
again, then stopped and held steady. Lights were red, blue and
white. I viewed it through my rifle scope and it was a triangle
of 12 lights. Lights were white through the scope and all of
equal brightness. As we walked on we could see it for about 30
min. As we walked we entered some willows and lost sight of the
object. When we came out it was gone. It was the most
unbelievable thing I have ever seen.

Below Follow-up by HBCC UFO Research

HBCC UFO Research telephoned the witness to take a follow-up
report from him. The witness is a VP with a major company and
was a delightful gentleman to talk with. He began by telling me
that he has never witnessed anything like what they saw on
October 21, 2003 when they were near Mount McDonald in the
Yukon. He went on to say he has never been witness to a UFO
before. He told me he was very familiar with all different types
of aircraft and what he saw that night was certainly no normal
aircraft.

Whatever it was the two men saw that early morning certainly
confounded them both and he said it was truly an unidentified
flying object. The fellow felt the object was intelligently made
due to the perfect shape of the lighting on the craft.

The night the men were walking out with the sheep they had got
on the hunting trip, the witness said the northern lights were
just beautiful. The aurora were dancing across the night sky
changing all different colors, from turquoise to green, red and
swirling all over the sky. Because the men were carrying a good
sized load on their backs, they stopped every 15 minutes to have
a short rest and as they sat they would look up at the sky to
watch the amazing light show which was taking place above them.

While taking one of their breaks they noticed four stars in a
row stretching out in a straight line across the sky running
south to north. Both men thought this looked rather unusual as
they had not noticed them before when they took their short
break. The fellows never really gave it much more thought and
continued to watch the northern lights until one of the four
lights at the north end of the line flashed extremely bright.
The guide said to his companion, did you see that? I was told it
was just as if someone had used the flash on a camera, but many
times brighter. Both of the men wondered what caused such a
bright flash, thinking maybe it was a meteor burning up very
quickly. All of a sudden the next star from the end flashed
brightly, then the next, and the next until all four stars
flashed an extremely bright light. After that, each of the
points of light flashed only one time, and approx: 30 minutes
later the men still moving slowly along, taking breaks when
needed, the hunter noticed what he thought was an airplane
coming in their direction from the north and moving slowly. The
man I talked with said they weren't that far from the Artic
Circle, only approx: 200 miles away. They were in the true
wilderness.

At this point the guide said, this is really odd as I don't
usually see aircraft up here at this time of night. Maybe a
float plane during the daytime. The witness said from where they
were located it looked like a cluster of lights because of the
distance they were away from it at that time. As they watched
the cluster of lights stopped dead in the sky and then started
to dart around, moving sideways, up and down, and even traveling
on a slight angle. All these maneuvers covered a large area in
the sky. After the object carried out all these different types
of movements it finally came back to the same spot in the sky
and stopped again. After approx: 5 minutes went by, the object
started moving again flying in a similar pattern. Both men
looked at each other in shock at what they were seeing.

The hunter put his rifle scope on the object and could see it
was a triangle in shape. He also said it wasn't an equal
triangle, but it looked more like if you were looking at a Tee
Pee. The gentleman said there were two lights which he figured
were at the top point. These lights were fairly close together,
as the triangle shaped object spread itself out, you were able
to see two more lights about half way down the craft, still on
the outside edge of it. When it came to the widest part of the
triangle there were a number of lights running straight across
the bottom edge of it. His impression was that the lights were
forming the dimensions of a large craft of some kind. At the
closest point the men were to the craft, they estimated the
distance from them to the object was approx: 3 miles away. Also
the craft was approx: 20 to 30 degrees above the horizon. No
sound could be heard, mind you the fellow said there was a small
river running close to them. As for the size of the object, he
estimates it may have been close to the size of a 747 airliner.
Also the witness noted that the lights seen on the object were
red, blue and white in color. Also noted was how the lights
moved....all together in a triangle formation.

Due to the men wanting to keep moving along as the packs were
heavy with meat and other supplies, they would travel through
willows, etc. and at this time would lose sight of the object
for a short period. When they cleared the forested area the
object could still be observed. The fellows still traveling
along through the bushes and when they came to another cleared
area, they looked and the craft was gone. The man told me now
when he thinks back on it, he wished he had sat and watched it
until it moved off. But due to them walking all night with loads
on their backs and still had approx: an hour to get back to the
horse and then another 2 hour horse ride back to camp... they
thought it best to continue.

The fellow said this was an amazing experience.

HBCC UFO is also trying to contact the guide to gather more
information on this event.


Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm







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               Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers -

From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 17:15:06 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 10:27:05 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 05:42:17 -0800
>Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 06:27:53 -0800
>>Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

<snip>

>>I often ponder the deep philosphical question, "Should I write
>>to this guy?" when I see a load of malarky in the press. I
>>usually conclude that it would do no good. He won't really pay
>>attention anyway. But I appreciate your effort to straighten him
>>out... at least a little bit.

>>I did get a reply from him by the way, albeit a very short one;
>>he said, "Hi, Thanks for your long and detailed letter. I
>>appreciate it. Fred."

>>The "UFO believers" statement is what gets me every time, and I
>>guess me trying to "enlighten him" is more for my benefit then
>>his. I agree, it is doubtful that "he will pay attention,"
>>however; on the flip-side, my mind was once stuck in that same
>>"closed box" many years ago. I too was part of the "social
>>phenomenon" that "shot down" any ideas outside what I was taught
>>to be the "norm"; for no rational reason I might add, just
>>because, as Mr. Pfisterer put it, "we have our heads screwed on
>>right and our brains in place, fully functioning and know
>>better."

>Several things here.

>I see you got browned-off by the ignoramus with the "true
>believers" article. That seems predictable.

>Like you, I cringe when I see "true believers" and UFOs in the
>same context, doubly so when that is the title of a news item.

>Almost without fail, you have a lazy writer who has never and
>will never really look into these matters.

>One rather unwelcome friend-of-a-friend insists on the
>'little-green-men' kiss-off whenever she wants to remind
>herself how much more intelligent she is than those about
>her. She looks like the next-best thing reverse viagra, which
>may or may not be relevant. She obviously needs somebody else
>to down upon.

>No amount of explanation or qualification seems to change such
>a person. For that reason, I really have to question the
>utility of writing to a writer, so bone-assed dumb as to
>title an article "UFO True Believers" or whatever it was.

>Frankly, I just let those sort be, and pay more attention to
>the honest skeptics. At the very least they ask interesting
>questions! One of these is (for example)

>"Do Flying Spin? If so, do the occupants get dizzy?"

>The most interesting ones offer potentially testable hypotheses:

>"Are 'UFO Believers' more or less educated than the general
>population?"

>The answer (never mentioned by the schlock writers BTW) is: Yes,
>definitely.

>Now! If I had to beat a deadline to write an article about
>religion say, I would probably be every bit as lazy. I might
>even use a phrase similar to 'true believers'. Having two in the
>family (brother and sister), and after 12 years of Catholic
>School, I could at least pretend to some familiarity with the
>topic... a highly skeptical one indeed!

>I might even dash off some screed using the same bar napkins as
>the fellow you wrote to did. What I try not to do, is to invite
>a dialogue with a bonehead, an obvious nut, or some boring self-
>serving hack.


Hello Listerians,

This post is about slaying dragons - the all-powerful dragons
of anti-Ufology, which slay the truth and harden the minds of
so many in the general public.

The point I was trying to make earlier, about Cyclops and the
Government, is that they are waging a propaganda war - not a
war of Science and Reason - when it comes to UFOs or "Alien
Spaceraft".

Rationality is only superficially involved: They have to make
a case which can be understood and believed (Professor Moore
precisely calculated the balloon's trajectory, purple toy tape
was used on the radar reflectors producing heiroglyphic symbols,
and other seemingly rational statements).

After the case has supposedly been made, make the reader
feel smugly superior to those UFO loonies: They just want
attention, they have "the will to believe", they are silly
people, they don't practice science, they are "True Believers".

Now John Q. Public can feel informed and superior. He can
brush off any "flying saucer" claims with an air of
confidence believing that he's an informed and thoughtful
adult, while the True Believers are silly but harmless,
and certainly don't know what they're talking about.
And any attempts by a True Believer to persuade him
to the other view of UFOs are simply the desparate
attempts of a child to validate the monsters under his
bed or the "real" dreams he had the night before.

The propaganda from the government and Cyclops makes
the uninformed reader feel good! And that is a vital
ingredient in their recipe.

I am very impressed with Frank Warren's letter to the
writer of that "True Believer" article. It might even
do some good - and I hope it does. But let's understand
the full context of the game, here: The writer was
infected with Falsehoods and an Attitude. If we come
to the game with nothing more than disproving facts,
it's like showing up for a league softball game with
no uniforms and a misunderstanding of the rules of
slow-pitch softball. Even if we win the softball game,
we'll probably be laughed at by one and all, and
dismissed as serious contenders.

I take Frank Warren's letter, and others by Friedman,
Maccabee, Rudiak, etc, etc, very seriously because I
understand the truth of what they're saying, and
the hard work they've put into acquiring that truth.
But some of the listeners (newspaper readers, etc) have
a negative "Attitude" which was created by propaganda
and probably cannot be dealt with through Science and
Reason. The "Attitude" problem can only be turned around
using the same weapon the other side uses: Propaganda.

That's why I proposed "The Committee of Sneering
Incompetents..." and the organization called "Cyclops"
(CSICOP).

But this approach is beneath us, right? We're mature,
thoughtful, rational, scientific, intelligent adults -
not a bunch of martini-guzzling Ad-Agency people
trying to sell aspirin, bras, and cars.

Well, I have to ask the question: If we're so smart,
and know much more of the truth than the average
John Q. Public, why is the all-powerful dragon known as
"The True Believer Concept" still alive and well, and
slaying our truth day after day, year after year?

Why is it that when a UFO conference or Roswell
anniversary is covered by television news, the focus
is on the guy with the alien head or someone else
wearing a tinfoil hat - all the "True Believers"?

I'll tell you why:
It's because we're not in that business, not playing
that game, and not even addressing the problem in a
way which permits a solution. If there were an
offshoot of Ufology dedicated to the propaganda side
of things, and if it were well-funded with a budget of
several million dollars per year, progress would be
made in slaying that dragon which irritates and
humiliates so many.

Full or even partial Disclosure of the UFO phenomenon doesn't
seem to be on the horizon. In the meantine, major funding and a
group of dragon-slayers are needed. They would need to be
intelligent, well-informed, and understand propaganda or
marketing. Without such a function operating in the world of
Ufology, the "True Believer" concept (and worse) will continue
to be believed by the public and promoted by ignorant writers,
smugly confident of their position, and probably immune to
rational persuasion.

The outstanding research which has been done needs to continue,
but a different group of people needs to address the emotional
side of Ufology.

Example: Which sentence makes you feel better?

1. The CIA claim that U-2 flights accounted for half of the UFO
reports is absurd, and here's my evidence.

2. Most Ufologists are keenly aware of UFO reports, and the many
professionals who reported them (such as airline pilots,
astronomers, and so forth).

(By the way, many thanks to Bruce Maccabee for researching and
publishing that U-2 material! I knew the CIA claim was absurd,
but had no facts to support it.)

The U-2 research was crucial. I was easily able to understand
it, and enjoyed reading it. But most citizens don't flock to a
scientist's website looking for evidence - pro or con - of a
statement in a television documentary on UFOs. What's missing is
another group to take such material and package it for John Q.
Public in emotional terms.

If that's not done, "The True Believer Concept" dragon will
continue to breathe fire, incinerating the truth.


Dave Morton








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                        Newly-Posted Photos at A.I.C.

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 20:23:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 10:57:57 -0500
Subject: Newly-Posted Photos at A.I.C.


Hi All,

For the longest time I have been unable to find the 'originals'
to the 'thumbnail' sized photos shown on the 'Physical Evidence'
pages/section of the A.I.C. (Abduction Information Center)
Website - anywhere on my hard drive.

Until now, all that has been available for viewing on those
pages were the tiny, hard to see 'thumbnails' that were made
from the much larger originals.

The reason I am writing this note is; I found the larger
originals! Found them and posted them to the A.I.C. webpages.

Squeamish Beware!

The photos themselves can prove disturbing to some folks. If
photos of bruises or cuts upsets you or makes you want to toss
your cookies, this is not a gallery you'll want to see. For
those with stronger constitutions it is, I hope, a thought
provoking set of photos of the marks and scars suffered by some
abductees, reportedly sustained during a UFO abduction. These
photos of marks that - until proven one way or the other -
strongly hint at a disturbingly real, physical phenomenon,
stand as a strong challenge to any and all purely
'psychological' explanations for some of the reports of UFO
abduction.

I invite you all to check the photos out for yourselves. Go to:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/aic/default.html

Click on the button marked, 'Physical Evidence'. There are three
pages in the section. Some of you may wish to spend a little
more time at AIC and I highly recommend that you spend it in the
P.O.V. section studying some the material that is archived
there. In any event, I hope your visit to A.I.C. is educational,
informative and eye-opening.


Regards,

John Velez
Webmaster - Abduction Information Center







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                    Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 02:43:07 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 11:57:48 -0500
Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Pope


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 17:13:32 -0000
>Subject: Pope On A (Radio 4) Rope

>>From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 01:28:24 -0000
>>Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme

>Nick had been told about the documentary by his chum, the
>amusing Lord Hill Norton who File on Four were at first going to
>interview but later chose not to.

>Nick then immediately rang David up to see if he could get in on
>the act.

List,

Given Andy's recent interest in my media activities (Radio 4,
Channel 5, etc) I thought I'd take the opportunity to set the
record straight. Let me say at the outset that while he has the
facts wrong, I'm sure he's not deliberately lying.

I heard about the Radio 4 documentary from Admiral of the Fleet
The Lord Hill-Norton, a former Chief of the Defence Staff and
Chairman of the NATO Military Committee. I wasn't sure from Lord
Hill-Norton's letter whether or not Radio 4 wanted to interview
me, so I telephoned the producer, David Lewis.

It transpired that Radio 4 wanted neither an official government
spokesperson, nor someone from the Ministry of Defence's UFO
project speaking in a private capacity. They wanted ufologists,
and preferably ones with rather extreme views. The plan was to
recruit colourful characters from opposite and extreme ends of
the belief spectrum, such as Dave Clarke, Tony Dodd, Andy
Roberts and Brenda Butler. Accordingly, the show came across as
'Battle of the Buffs', with the True Believers and the Die-Hard
Sceptics being played off against each other.

What the Radio 4 team wanted from me was details of the
testimony of two ex-military personnel, Nigel Kerr (RAF Watton)
and Malcolm Scurrah (RAF Neatishead). David Lewis discussed this
with me, and subsequently asked me to provide contact details
for these two individuals. I forwarded these and we then
discussed the possibility of working together on a future show.
I have no idea whether he'll follow this up, and if he does, I
don't know whether I'll have time to accede such a request.

In view of the fact that I used to run the British Government's
UFO project, I'm frequently contacted by the media. While most
requests are for interviews, some are for contact details of
military personnel, while other approaches are aimed at checking
factual issues concerning, for example, military Standard
Operating Procedures.

I find the implication that I'm a 'media tart', desperate to get
on as many TV shows as possible, hilarious. If anything, I've
been trying to cut back on media work. I recently resigned my
position as Military Affairs correspondent on Eye Spy Magazine,
and passed an interview request from ITV's This Morning show to
a ufologist.

I'm telephoned or emailed, virtually on a daily basis, by
newspaper journalists or researchers from TV shows. The pressure
of Ministry of Defence work and other private business
commitments means that while I try to help where I can, this
isn't always possible.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope







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                  Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <editor@perceptions.couk.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 17:04:10 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 12:24:30 -0500
Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Dickenson


>From: Dan Bright <ufo@zaziork.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>,
>Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 20:24:26 -0000
>Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Bright


>Did the BBC team broaden their statement to refer to _all_
>UFO research? Indeed, how could the study an 'unidentified'
>object be considered "irrational"? On the other hand, a
>conclusion of ET visitation would be so, in the absence of
>evidence to support that claim.

Hello Dan, and All,

Friday's "Feedback" had unanimous criticism of Berwyn program's
"dumbed-down, debunking" approach.

The prepared statement of the production team claimed
impartiality and went on to say that its approach was "perfectly
rational".

They clearly did not think any UFO scenario (never mind ETH) was
worth considering.

Presumably "rational" was meant to describe their piecemeal
labeling & dismissal of evidence or even ignoring evidence. I.e.
the build-up over some months - then, on the night - the
coincidence of anomalous (directed?) "meteors" _and_ an
"earthquake" etc.

Don't wish or claim _any_ "ufology" experience or know-how, just
examine _all_ available evidence logically - an approach we can
modestly claim some successes with, even in the face of
opposition and denial by "mainstream" science establishment.
http://www.perceptions.couk.com/answers5.html#agenda

Experience shows that establishment claims of "rationality"
almost always covers-up an irrational clinging to yesterday's
"safe" paradigm.

http://www.perceptions.couk.com/blinded.html#egs

Regards,

Ray Dickenson

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






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   Nov > Nov 10

                  Anomaly Archives Library Opens In Austin

From: Stephen Miles Lewis <ufoupdates@elfis.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 16:17:30 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:38:53 -0500
Subject: Anomaly Archives Library Opens In Austin


Anomaly Archives Lending Library Opens In Austin Texas


Greetings UFO UpDates Listers,

It's been a while since I posted to this List - tho' it remains
one of my favorite elists of all time. My posts to the List tend
to be sporadic but you can read past posts as far back as
September 1998 under these email prefixes "elfis", "smiles",
"stephen.lewis", and "miles" if you go to the UFO UpDates List
Archive:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1998/oct/m12-028.shtml

A brief re-introduction for those who don't know me.....

My name is Stephen Miles Lewis, but you can call me Miles or
SMiles.

I've had a life-long interest (oh, who am I kidding, it's an
obsession) in all things anomalous, be they paranormal,
ufological, parapsychological, whatever.

Here in Austin, Texas, I served as facilitator for a local UFO
Experiencer Forum and Study Group, State Section Director,
editor of ELFIS Journal of Possible Paradigms, editor of the
Austin Para Times and organizer of the ill-fated 38th annual
National UFO Conference of September 2001.

Currently I host about 20 anomaly related web sites via the
Elfis Network.

http://www.nufoc.net/nufoc38/> <http://www.ELFIS.net

http://www.AustinParaTimes.com

For over ten years I've dreamed of founding a research lending
library to house my ever-growing book, magazine and clipping
collections. Well, that dream is finally a reality. Thanks to
serendipity and a friendship with Bob McGarey - see Ray
Stanford's Socorro Saucer In A Pentagon Pantry - of the Human
Potential Center, my archives have a home in which to birth this
project.

Two of the role-models for the Anomaly Archives are the Archives
for UFO Research in Sweden and Rhea White's Exceptional Human
Experience Network and its Psiline database.

http://www.afu.info

http://www.ehe.org/display/ehe-page.cfm?ID=76

There are so many fine researchers on this list who each have
there own monumental research collections and projects; Jan
Aldrich's Project 1947, Wendy Connors' Faded Discs archive,
Jerome Clark and the CUFOS collection and others come to mind.
The Anomaly Archives hopes to work with these and the many other
fine researchers and research collections who network via this
and other elists.

Some of the organizations we have partnered with locally include:
Austin MUFON (Mutual UFO Network), Austin IONS (Institute Of Noetic
Science), INACS (Institute for Neuroscience And Consciousness Studies),
the Human Potential Center and others.

To those in the Central Texas region I invite you to come by
Friday, November 14th to see the Anomaly Archives. To those
farther afield, you are also invited to explore and join the
growing non-local Anomaly Community.


Sincerely,

SMiles Lewis
-AnomaloManiac

-------------------------------

ANOMALY ARCHIVES - Lending Library - Opens Friday November 14th
Austin, Texas - 2007 Bert Ave. 78704

Ever wondered about the reality of UFOs? Ever had a strange experience
and wondered if others have had similar experiences? Ever wanted to
learn about scientific investigations into the reality of
Cryptozoological Critters, Parapsychological Paradigms and
Parapolitical Cover-Ups?

Then Come See the Anomaly Archives and explore the Human
Potential Campus at the upcoming...

Human Potential Center - Art Show And Open House
Friday, November 14th !! [See bottom for more info on the art show]

The Anomaly Archives has been a vision of founder SMiles Lewis
for over ten years. Finally, the Anomaly Archives have
manifested in physical reality as the non-profit corporation the
Scientific Anomaly Institute, headquartered at the...

Human Potential Campus, 2007 Bert Avenue, Austin, Texas 78704

The Mission of the Anomaly Archives includes:

*Preservation and dissemination of scientific research into
anomalous phenomena,

*Research and analysis of accumulated collections, and

*Education of the public regarding scientific investigations
into these phenomena.

Purposes of the Institute include:

*Managing and developing an archive and library for documents
and literature with regards to a multi-disciplinary approach to
anomalous phenomena,

*Supporting, promoting and pursuing research to obtain increased
knowledge about anomalous phenomena, and

*Pursuing and stimulating a critical, scientific discussion of
anomalous phenomena, and providing a forum for information,
support, and sharing among researchers while,

*Functioning as the archives and library for like-minded
organizations, and other groups in the community that have
similar interests.

Services at the Anomaly Archives will include,

*Free In-House Access to Materials for the Public,

*Free Searches of Digitized Index,

*Bibliography and Virtual Collections,

*Lending Library for Membership Discounted Membership with
Partnered Organizations,

*Research Services for the Public (Discounts for Membership),

*Discounted Services for Archives Membership & Partnered
Organizations,

*Interlibrary Loan with Participating Libraries for Archives
Membership,

*Discounted Membership & Services for Donated Collections, and

*On-line access to digitized collections for Membership.

Future Services the Archives will provide include Reprinting of
Rare Publications & Anomaly Org Newsletters, Archiving
Publications of Anomaly Oriented Organizations, Web Development
& Archiving for Anomaly Oriented Orgs, and the creation of an
On-line Distance Learning Campus.

For more information, visit:

http://www.AnomalyArchives.org


----------------------------------------------------------------

MORE INFO: HPC - Art Show and Open House

The Human Potential Center has much to offer in the areas of
personal growth and development. To showcase both, the Center
hosts a quarterly Art Show and Open House. Featured are the
remarkable paintings of Kristi Hayner and Jo Lagattuta, and the
handmade jewelry of Pam Chambers and Lia Nelson. Friday,
November 14 from 6 - 10 pm. FREE!

The Human Potential Center, 2007 Bert Avenue.

For more information, visit:

http://www.HumanPotentialCenter.org

or call 441-8988







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   Nov > Nov 10

                   Re: 'Contrail' Info Requested - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 23:22:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:46:53 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Contrail' Info Requested - Ledger


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 06:41:16 -0800
>Subject: Re: 'Contrail' Info Requested - Warren

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 01:08:18 -0400
>>Subject: 'Contrail' Info Requested


>>Last year Peter Davenport reported the following from CNN. Does
>>anyone have additional information for this?


>>National UFO Reporting Center Sighting Report
>>Occurred : 11/27/2002 16:00 (Entered as : 11/27/02)
>>Reported: 11/28/2002 6:33:29 PM 18:33
>>Posted: 12/23/2002
>>Location: Turks,
>>Shape: Unknown
>>Duration:

>>This is a link to a cnn.com report on a mysterious contrail.>

>>I saw this report on cnn.com and thought I would pass it along:

>>http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Central/11/28/contrail.scramble/index.html


>Interestingly enough, I just completed a "vigorous search" in
>the archives of most major papers and the wires, AP, Reuters,
>etc., for any mention of this story and came up with zilch. Also
>checked CNN for a follow-up, and nothing there either. It would
>seem that this "interesting news item" was nipped in the bud.

>I didn't check "local Colorado Springs newspapers," perhaps
>there is something there.


Hi Frank,

Sorry I must have missed this. Like minds... Thanks for this
information. I should mention that a piece of information I have
makes this sighting more than other recent phenomenal events
much more interesting to me. I'll keep you posted.


Best,

Don Ledger





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                          Stoner, British Columbia

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 20:27:17 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:14:26 -0500
Subject: Stoner, British Columbia


Stoner, British Columbia

Date:  October 26, 2003
Time:  5:00 p.m.

A gentleman called me from Prince George, British Columbia
tonight (November 9, 2003) to report a sighting he and his wife
had while coming back from Penticton, B.C. On October 26, 2003
while traveling along highway 97 just south of Stoner, B.C.,
heading north the couple saw what they first thought was a very
large aircraft. The fellow told me it looked like an aircraft
that would have been coming in for a landing at an airport with
the landing lights on. The light they witnessed was extremely
bright and again large in size. The object was to their right
and a head of them at this point. Also the object was traveling
over top of the trees. They soon figured out that what they were
observing was not a normal aircraft at all due to it's size,
brightness and how low it was flying. The witness told me they
were traveling at approx: 100 kilometers an hour and they were
catching up to this thing. He also mentioned, it was unlikely at
the speed he was traveling that they would have slowly crept up
closer to it if it had of been a plane.

Still thinking the fellow wondered, could it possibly be a
helicopter as it did seem to hover for a spit second or two then
started moving once again. Being so low, they did lose sight of
it briefly due to the trees blocking their view. Once the
witnesses got to a crest of the hill and seeing there was a
clearing they spotted the object again. At this point it was
just underneath the cloud cover. The witnesses estimated the
cloud ceiling to be at approx: 8,000 feet or close. The object,
still traveling slowly, flying just below the clouds and
basically straight across from them when the light just
disappeared, then reappeared shortly there after and then
finally vanished. The witness mentioned that the highway had a
lot of traffic on it and many others driving would have noticed
the object. It was hard not to see it due to the intensity of
the light.

I will be checking this out Monday morning to see if I can dig
anything up on this case.

Thank you to both witnesses for their report.


Brian Vike

Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm







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                         Strange Noises From The Sky

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 17:01:08 -0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:15:03 -0500
Subject: Strange Noises From The Sky


Source: St. George Daily Spectrum, UT

http://www.thespectrum.com/news/stories/20031109/topstories/613898.html

High Country Beat

By Ed Kociela

It's time to admit that my friend and office-mate Jennifer
Weaver and friend and radio host Steve Miner are not the only
people with unusual UFO experiences recently.

I haven't seen anything funny in the sky, but I sure have heard
some strange rumblings - and I know it's for real because my
wife has heard them and even my dogs have been startled from
their napping a couple of times over the past few weeks by
strange noises from the sky.

Not long ago, another friend told me he saw the B-2 bomber
flying over Cedar Mountain. This guy is about to become a pilot
and has a set of eyes on him that an eagle would covet, so I
don't doubt his report.

The B-2, however, doesn't sound like some of the things that
have shaken my home and ears.

Whatever it is, it's flying very high - out of my eyesight at
least - and fast. And with the sound seemingly echoing around
the valley, it's difficult to pinpoint the spot in the sky where
this aircraft is flying.

Now just because we can't identify it doesn't mean there are
aliens patrolling the neighborhood, to be sure, although it
would be interesting to cover an extraterrestrial landing.

I have noticed that there have been a number of corkscrew
contrails flowing across the sky, indicating some sort of jet
propulsion. Normal jet engines do not produce that kind of
pattern, at least in my experience. Calling the U.S. Air Force
would be futile, especially since we are so close to Area 51 and
Nellis Air Force Base where the military does things we're not
supposed to know about. But if anybody else has heard or seen
something strange in the skies, let me know. I hate to sound
like Art Bell, but there is definitely something odd going on
above us.









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   Nov > Nov 11

                         The Universe As A Hologram

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:51:00 -0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:17:53 -0500
Subject: The Universe As A Hologram


Source: http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html

The Universe as a Hologram
Author unknown

Does Objective Reality Exist, or is the Universe a Phantasm?

In 1982 a remarkable event took place. At the University of
Paris a research team led by physicist Alain Aspect performed
what may turn out to be one of the most important experiments of
the 20th century. You did not hear about it on the evening news.
In fact, unless you are in the habit of reading scientific
journals you probably have never even heard Aspect's name,
though there are some who believe his discovery may change the
face of science.

Aspect and his team discovered that under certain circumstances
subatomic particles such as electrons are able to
instantaneously communicate with each other regardless of the
distance separating them. It doesn't matter whether they are 10
feet or 10 billion miles apart. Somehow each particle always
seems to know what the other is doing. The problem with this
feat is that it violates Einstein's long-held tenet that no
communication can travel faster than the speed of light. Since
traveling faster than the speed of light is tantamount to
breaking the time barrier, this daunting prospect has caused
some physicists to try to come up with elaborate ways to explain
away Aspect's findings. But it has inspired others to offer even
more radical explanations.

University of London physicist David Bohm, for example, believes
Aspect's findings imply that objective reality does not exist,
that despite its apparent solidity the universe is at heart a
phantasm, a gigantic and splendidly detailed hologram.

To understand why Bohm makes this startling assertion, one must
first understand a little about holograms. A hologram is a
three- dimensional photograph made with the aid of a laser. To
make a hologram, the object to be photographed is first bathed
in the light of a laser beam. Then a second laser beam is
bounced off the reflected light of the first and the resulting
interference pattern (the area where the two laser beams
commingle) is captured on film. When the film is developed, it
looks like a meaningless swirl of light and dark lines. But as
soon as the developed film is illuminated by another laser beam,
a three-dimensional image of the original object appears.

The three-dimensionality of such images is not the only
remarkable characteristic of holograms. If a hologram of a rose
is cut in half and then illuminated by a laser, each half will
still be found to contain the entire image of the rose. Indeed,
even if the halves are divided again, each snippet of film will
always be found to contain a smaller but intact version of the
original image. Unlike normal photographs, every part of a
hologram contains all the information possessed by the whole.

The "whole in every part" nature of a hologram provides us with
an entirely new way of understanding organization and order. For
most of its history, Western science has labored under the bias
that the best way to understand a physical phenomenon, whether a
frog or an atom, is to dissect it and study its respective
parts. A hologram teaches us that some things in the universe
may not lend themselves to this approach. If we try to take
apart something constructed holographically, we will not get the
pieces of which it is made, we will only get smaller wholes.

This insight suggested to Bohm another way of understanding
Aspect's discovery. Bohm believes the reason subatomic particles
are able to remain in contact with one another regardless of the
distance separating them is not because they are sending some
sort of mysterious signal back and forth, but because their
separateness is an illusion. He argues that at some deeper level
of reality such particles are not individual entities, but are
actually extensions of the same fundamental something.

To enable people to better visualize what he means, Bohm offers
the following illustration. Imagine an aquarium containing a
fish. Imagine also that you are unable to see the aquarium
directly and your knowledge about it and what it contains comes
from two television cameras, one directed at the aquarium's
front and the other directed at its side. As you stare at the
two television monitors, you might assume that the fish on each
of the screens are separate entities. After all, because the
cameras are set at different angles, each of the images will be
slightly different. But as you continue to watch the two fish,
you will eventually become aware that there is a certain
relationship between them. When one turns, the other also makes
a slightly different but corresponding turn; when one faces the
front, the other always faces toward the side. If you remain
unaware of the full scope of the situation, you might even
conclude that the fish must be instantaneously communicating
with one another, but this is clearly not the case.

This, says Bohm, is precisely what is going on between the
subatomic particles in Aspect's experiment. According to Bohm,
the apparent faster-than-light connection between subatomic
particles is really telling us that there is a deeper level of
reality we are not privy to, a more complex dimension beyond our
own that is analogous to the aquarium. And, he adds, we view
objects such as subatomic particles as separate from one another
because we are seeing only a portion of their reality. Such
particles are not separate "parts", but facets of a deeper and
more underlying unity that is ultimately as holographic and
indivisible as the previously mentioned rose. And since
everything in physical reality is comprised of these "eidolons",
the universe is itself a projection, a hologram.

In addition to its phantomlike nature, such a universe would
possess other rather startling features. If the apparent
separateness of subatomic particles is illusory, it means that
at a deeper level of reality all things in the universe are
infinitely interconnected.The electrons in a carbon atom in the
human brain are connected to the subatomic particles that
comprise every salmon that swims, every heart that beats, and
every star that shimmers in the sky. Everything interpenetrates
everything, and although human nature may seek to categorize and
pigeonhole and subdivide, the various phenomena of the universe,
all apportionments are of necessity artificial and all of nature
is ultimately a seamless web.

In a holographic universe, even time and space could no longer
be viewed as fundamentals. Because concepts such as location
break down in a universe in which nothing is truly separate from
anything else, time and three-dimensional space, like the images
of the fish on the TV monitors, would also have to be viewed as
projections of this deeper order. At its deeper level reality is
a sort of superhologram in which the past, present, and future
all exist simultaneously. This suggests that given the proper
tools it might even be possible to someday reach into the
superholographic level of reality and pluck out scenes from the
long-forgotten past.

What else the superhologram contains is an open-ended question.
Allowing, for the sake of argument, that the superhologram is
the matrix that has given birth to everything in our universe,
at the very least it contains every subatomic particle that has
been or will be -- every configuration of matter and energy that
is possible, from snowflakes to quasars, from blue whales to
gamma rays. It must be seen as a sort of cosmic storehouse of
"All That Is."

Although Bohm concedes that we have no way of knowing what else
might lie hidden in the superhologram, he does venture to say
that we have no reason to assume it does not contain more. Or as
he puts it, perhaps the superholographic level of reality is a
"mere stage" beyond which lies "an infinity of further
development".

Bohm is not the only researcher who has found evidence that the
universe is a hologram. Working independently in the field of
brain research, Standford neurophysiologist Karl Pribram has
also become persuaded of the holographic nature of reality.
Pribram was drawn to the holographic model by the puzzle of how
and where memories are stored in the brain. For decades numerous
studies have shown that rather than being confined to a specific
location, memories are dispersed throughout the brain.

In a series of landmark experiments in the 1920s, brain
scientist Karl Lashley found that no matter what portion of a
rat's brain he removed he was unable to eradicate its memory of
how to perform complex tasks it had learned prior to surgery.
The only problem was that no one was able to come up with a
mechanism that might explain this curious "whole in every part"
nature of memory storage.

Then in the 1960s Pribram encountered the concept of holography
and realized he had found the explanation brain scientists had
been looking for. Pribram believes memories are encoded not in
neurons, or small groupings of neurons, but in patterns of nerve
impulses that crisscross the entire brain in the same way that
patterns of laser light interference crisscross the entire area
of a piece of film containing a holographic image. In other
words, Pribram believes the brain is itself a hologram.

Pribram's theory also explains how the human brain can store so
many memories in so little space. It has been estimated that the
human brain has the capacity to memorize something on the order
of 10 billion bits of information during the average human
lifetime (or roughly the same amount of information contained in
five sets of the Encyclopaedia Britannica).

Similarly, it has been discovered that in addition to their
other capabilities, holograms possess an astounding capacity for
information storage--simply by changing the angle at which the
two lasers strike a piece of photographic film, it is possible
to record many different images on the same surface. It has been
demonstrated that one cubic centimeter of film can hold as many
as 10 billion bits of information.

Our uncanny ability to quickly retrieve whatever information we
need from the enormous store of our memories becomes more
understandable if the brain functions according to holographic
principles. If a friend asks you to tell him what comes to mind
when he says the word "zebra", you do not have to clumsily sort
back through some gigantic and cerebral alphabetic file to
arrive at an answer. Instead, associations like "striped",
"horselike", and "animal native to Africa" all pop into your
head instantly. Indeed, one of the most amazing things about the
human thinking process is that every piece of information seems
instantly cross- correlated with every other piece of
information--another feature intrinsic to the hologram. Because
every portion of a hologram is infinitely interconnected with
every other portion, it is perhaps nature's supreme example of a
cross-correlated system.

The storage of memory is not the only neurophysiological puzzle
that becomes more tractable in light of Pribram's holographic
model of the brain. Another is how the brain is able to
translate the avalanche of frequencies it receives via the
senses (light frequencies, sound frequencies, and so on) into
the concrete world of our perceptions.

Encoding and decoding frequencies is precisely what a hologram
does best. Just as a hologram functions as a sort of lens, a
translating device able to convert an apparently meaningless
blur of frequencies into a coherent image, Pribram believes the
brain also comprises a lens and uses holographic principles to
mathematically convert the frequencies it receives through the
senses into the inner world of our perceptions.

An impressive body of evidence suggests that the brain uses
holographic principles to perform its operations. Pribram's
theory, in fact, has gained increasing support among
neurophysiologists.

Argentinian-Italian researcher Hugo Zucarelli recently extended
the holographic model into the world of acoustic phenomena.
Puzzled by the fact that humans can locate the source of sounds
without moving their heads, even if they only possess hearing in
one ear, Zucarelli discovered that holographic principles can
explain this ability. Zucarelli has also developed the
technology of holophonic sound, a recording technique able to
reproduce acoustic situations with an almost uncanny realism.

Pribram's belief that our brains mathematically construct "hard"
reality by relying on input from a frequency domain has also
received a good deal of experimental support. It has been found
that each of our senses is sensitive to a much broader range of
frequencies than was previously suspected. Researchers have
discovered, for instance, that our visual systems are sensitive
to sound frequencies, that our sense of smellisin part dependent
on what are now called "osmic frequencies", and that even the
cells in our bodies are sensitive to a broad range of
frequencies. Such findings suggest that it is only in the
holographic domain of consciousness that such frequencies are
sorted out and divided up into conventional perceptions.

But the most mind-boggling aspect of Pribram's holographic model
of the brain is what happens when it is put together with Bohm's
theory. For if the concreteness of the world is but a secondary
reality and what is "there" is actually a holographic blur of
frequencies, and if the brain is also a hologram and only
selects some of the frequencies out of this blur and
mathematically transforms them into sensory perceptions, what
becomes of objective reality? Put quite simply, it ceases to
exist. As the religions of the East have long upheld, the
material world is Maya, an illusion, and although we may think
we are physical beings moving through a physical world, this too
is an illusion.

We are really "receivers" floating through a kaleidoscopic sea
of frequency, and what we extract from this sea and transmogrify
into physical reality is but one channel from many extracted out
of the superhologram.

This striking new picture of reality, the synthesis of Bohm and
Pribram's views, has come to be called the-holographic paradigm,
and although many scientists have greeted it with skepticism, it
has galvanized others. A small but growing group of researchers
believe it may be the most accurate model of reality science has
arrived at thus far. More than that, some believe it may solve
some mysteries that have never before been explainable by
science and even establish the paranormal as a part of nature.
Numerous researchers, including Bohm and Pribram, have noted
that many para-psychological phenomena become much more
understandable in terms of the holographic paradigm.

In a universe in which individual brains are actually
indivisible portions of the greater hologram and everything is
infinitely interconnected, telepathy may merely be the accessing
of the holographic level.

It is obviously much easier to understand how information can
travel from the mind of individual 'A' to that of individual 'B'
at a far distance point and helps to understand a number of
unsolvedpuzzles in psychology.

In particular, Stanislav Grof feels the holographic paradigm
offers a model for understanding many of the baffling phenomena
experienced by individuals during altered states of
consciousness. In the 1950s, while conducting research into the
beliefs of LSD as a psychotherapeutic tool, Grof had one female
patient who suddenly became convinced she had assumed the
identity of a female of a species of prehistoric reptile. During
the course of her hallucination, she not only gave a richly
detailed description of what it felt like to be encapsuled in
such a form, but noted that the portion of the male of the
species's anatomy was a patch of colored scales on the side of
its head. What was startling to Grof was that although the woman
had no prior knowledge about such things, a conversation with a
zoologist later confirmed that in certain species of reptiles
colored areas on the head do indeed play an important role as
triggers of sexual arousal. The woman's experience was not
unique. During the course of his research, Grof encountered
examples of patients regressing and identifying with virtually
every species on the evolutionary tree (research findings which
helped influence the man-into-ape scene in the movie Altered
States). Moreover, he found that such experiences frequently
contained obscure zoological details which turned out to be
accurate.

Regressions into the animal kingdom were not the only puzzling
psychological phenomena Grof encountered. He also had patients
who appeared to tap into some sort of collective or racial
unconscious. Individuals with little or no education suddenly
gave detailed descriptions of Zoroastrian funerary practices and
scenes from Hindu mythology. In other categories of experience,
individuals gave persuasive accounts of out-of-body journeys, of
precognitive glimpses of the future, of regressions into
apparent past-life incarnations.

In later research, Grof found the same range of phenomena
manifested in therapy sessions which did not involve the use of
drugs. Because the common element in such experiences appeared
to be the transcending of an individual's consciousness beyond
the usual boundaries of ego and/or limitations of space and
time, Grof called such manifestations "transpersonal
experiences", and in the late '60s he helped found a branch of
psychology called "transpersonal psychology" devoted entirely to
their study.

Although Grof's newly founded Association of Transpersonal
Psychology garnered a rapidly growing group of like-minded
professionals and has become a respected branch of psychology,
for years neither Grof or any of his colleagues were able to
offer a mechanism for explaining the bizarre psychological
phenomena they were witnessing. But that has changed with the
advent of the holographic paradigm.

As Grof recently noted, if the mind is actually part of a
continuum, a labyrinth that is connected not only to every other
mind that exists or has existed, but to every atom, organism,
and region in the vastness of space and time itself, the fact
that it is able to occasionally make forays into the labyrinth
and have transpersonal experiences no longer seems so strange.

The holographic paradigm also has implications for so-called
hard sciences like biology. Keith Floyd, a psychologist at
Virginia Intermont College, has pointed out that if the
concreteness of reality is but a holographic illusion, it would
no longer be true to say the brain produces consciousness.
Rather, it is consciousness that creates the appearance of the
brain -- as well as the body and everything else around us we
interpret as physical.

Such a turnabout in the way we view biological structures has
caused researchers to point out that medicine and our
understanding of the healing process could also be transformed
by the holographic paradigm. If the apparent physical structure
of the body is but a holographic projection of consciousness, it
becomes clear that each of us is much more responsible for our
health than current medical wisdom allows. What we now view as
miraculous remissions of disease may actually be due to changes
in consciousness which in turn effect changes in the hologram of
the body.

Similarly, controversial new healing techniques such as
visualization may work so well because, in the holographic
domain of thought, images are ultimately as real as "reality".

Even visions and experiences involving "non-ordinary" reality
become explainable under the holographic paradigm. In his book
"Gifts of Unknown Things," biologist Lyall Watson describes his
encounter with an Indonesian shaman woman who, by performing a
ritual dance, was able to make an entire grove of trees
instantly vanish into thin air. Watson relates that as he and
another astonished onlooker continued to watch the woman, she
caused the trees to reappear, then "click" off again and on
again several times in succession.

Although current scientific understanding is incapable of
explaining such events, experiences like this become more
tenable if "hard" reality is only a holographic projection.
Perhaps we agree on what is "there" or "not there" because what
we call consensus reality is formulated and ratified at the
level of the human unconscious at which all minds are infinitely
interconnected. If this is true, it is the most profound
implication of the holographic paradigm of all, for it means
that experiences such as Watson's are not commonplace only
because we have not programmed our minds with the beliefs that
would make them so. In a holographic universe there are no
limits to the extent to which we can alter the fabric of
reality.

What we perceive as reality is only a canvas waiting for us to
draw upon it any picture we want. Anything is possible, from
bending spoons with the power of the mind to the phantasmagoric
events experienced by Castaneda during his encounters with the
Yaqui brujo don Juan, for magic is our birthright, no more or
less miraculous than our ability to compute the reality we want
when we are in our dreams.

Indeed, even our most fundamental notions about reality become
suspect, for in a holographic universe, as Pribram has pointed
out, even random events would have to be seen as based on
holographic principles and therefore determined. Synchronicities
or meaningful coincidences suddenly makes sense, and everything
in reality would have to be seen as a metaphor, for even the
most haphazard events would express some underlying symmetry.

Whether Bohm and Pribram's holographic paradigm becomes accepted
in science or dies an ignoble death remains to be seen, but it
is safe to say that it has already had an influence on the
thinking of many scientists. And even if it is found that the
holographic model does not provide the best explanation for the
instantaneous communications that seem to be passing back and
forth between subatomic particles, at the very least, as noted
by Basil Hiley, a physicist at Birbeck College in London,
Aspect's findings "indicate that we must be prepared to consider
radically new views of reality".








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   Nov > Nov 11

                 Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:15:44 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:22:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update - Gehrman


>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 12:06:18 -0500
>Subject: Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update

>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 12:57:57 -0800
>>Subject: Re: Cameraman's Crash Site Update

><snip>

>>The drawings are exact rendering of the actual terrain and the
>>unusual material on rocks and ledges. There is more than a trace
>>of the cristobalite. There are tons of it scattered over a large
>>area and this deposit is the only one like it in the world as
>>far as I can tell. Cristobaite is not found under these
>>conditions, no matter what Ray Stanford would like to have you
>>believe.

><snip>

>Ed, as ever, you're doing great work on this. Congrats

Greg,

Thanks for the kind words. But I hope this is clear to everyone:
we want Ray to work with us on this, as a partner. We need his
skills, and a person who understands how to date trees, and
someone who understands burn and scorch marks. I know there are
folks on this list who would benefit from leaving their
armchairs and having a once-in-a-lifetime experience by visiting
the site.

>and I'm
>looking forward to seeing even more evidence. Is there any
>chance a scientific team can retrace your steps, and support
>your conclusions?

We have not disturbed much at the site. A scientific team would
find the site about in the same condition as we first discovered
it. As I've mentioned, there are cattle roaming the area but
almost all of the first impact site is virgin and the cliff
ledge where the craft finally landed is undisturbed. Most of our
samples have come from the stream bed or from the base of the
ledges where the material is the most concentrated. A few small
tree limbs are our only vegetation samples.  The site needs
forensic examination.

But even the staunchest skeptic will be amazed within seconds,
and one doesn't need extensive scientific training to understand
that something unusual happened at this secluded dry-lake.


Ed







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                       Green Bank Opens Science Center

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 07:43:12 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:19:53 -0500
Subject: Green Bank Opens Science Center


Source: Sunday Gazette (Charleston)

http://sundaygazettemail.com/section/News/2003110822

November 09, 2003

Green Bank opens Science Center


By Rick Steelhammer
STAFF WRITER

GREEN BANK -- In the Green Bank telescope's control room,
astronomer Jim Braatz typed a series of commands on a computer
keyboard and, across a meadow a half-mile away, the world's
largest moving structure turned on its tracks, then tilted to
focus on a new position in deep space.

"I like to do these observations in real time," said Braatz, who
had been at the controls for the past 30 hours. "I like to be
able to change the program as the data come in. And right now,
we're observing at the highest frequencies, and things can more
easily slip out of focus."

Braatz, a resident astronomer at the Green Bank National Radio
Astronomy Observatory, is studying the centers of active
galaxies _ galaxies with energy-emitting cores, like black holes.
In "normal" galaxies, energy emission is limited to the
radiation put out by stars.

As the black holes draw in gases from their surroundings, vast
amounts of gravitational energy are released.

"We're looking at water molecules swirling through black holes,"
Braatz said, staring at a graph on his computer screen showing
the speed and intensity of the molecules, as tracked by the Green
Bank Telescope's 100-meter dish.

By observing how fast the molecules are moving _ about 7,600
kilometers per second in the case of the active galaxy being
observed by Braatz _ astronomers can measure the mass of black
holes, and learn more about their character. They can also use
the information to more precisely measure the distance to
galaxies.

By relying on radio astronomy rather than the optical variety, researchers=
 like Braatz can cut through 30,000 light years of
cosmic dust to study distant galaxies and cosmic structures like quasars,=
 masers and black holes millions of light years away.

Radio astronomers tackle some of mankind's biggest questions: How
did the universe begin? Will it ever end? Are we alone?

The newly opened Science Center at Green Bank tells the public
how those and other questions are being answered, in addition to explaining=
 how radio astronomy works, and how it came into being.

The $8 million Science Center includes a museum-style exhibit hall,
live science demonstrations, video presentations on astronomy,
the Starlight Caf=E9, the Galaxy Gift Shop and sweeping views of the=
 observatory's array of radio telescopes and the Allegheny Mountain ridges=
 behind them.

"With that for a background," said Arlene Walton, who works the reception=
 desk in the new Science Center's glass-walled lobby,
"I've got the best seat in the world."

Exhibits include a model of a pulsar that visitors can take for a
spin, and an 8-foot-tall working scale model of the new Green Bank=
 Telescope, which visitors can rotate and spin, simulate an
observing session and analyze data collected. A communications
link allows those working the GBT model to eavesdrop on science
being done with the real telescope.

Outside, visitors can take in a full-size replica of the antenna
Karl Jansky used to first detect cosmic radio waves in 1932, when
trying to track down the source of interference in the newly
installed trans-Atlantic radio telephone service.

Nearby is the first true radio telescope, built by amateur radio operator=
 Grote Reber in his Wheaton, Ill., back yard, using sheet
metal and Ford Model-T parts. Also on the grounds is the 85-foot
Tatel Telescope astronomer Frank Drake used to conduct the
first-ever scientific search for extraterrestrial intelligence at
Green Bank in 1960.

The new Science Center also is the departure point for free guided
bus tours of the observatory's array of radio telescopes.

"The public's response to the Science Center has been great," said
Sue Ann Heatherly, who coordinates the Green Bank observatory's
public education programs. "We doubled our normal number of
visitors through October, and our goal is to eventually see as
many as 100,000 visitors a year."

The Science Center will remain open through the winter, moving
from a seven-day-a-week schedule to Wednesdays through Sundays,
from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m.

"We're hoping a lot of the Snowshoe people will stop by," said Heatherly.=
 "We don't really know what kind of a response we'll
get, since we've never been open to the public in winter before."

"It's fantastic that we now have a facility that communicates the excitement=
 of our science to schoolchildren and the general
public," said Phil Jewell, the Green Bank Observatory's site
director.

Across the observatory's access road from the new Science Center,
a dormitory complex for visiting high school and middle school
students is nearing completion.

"One of our goals is to host every school student in West
Virginia at least once before they graduate from high school,"
said Heatherly.

The Science Center was designed and built to prevent stray electromagnetic=
 radiation from leaking into the surrounding
environment, where it could interfere with radio astronomy
observations. Large metal doors, wire-mesh windows and
copper-clad walls are used to prevent radiation from escaping.

"Computers, lights and other electronic equipment emit small
amounts of electromagnetic radiation at radio wavelengths," said
Jewell. "The most important work going on at the NRAO in Green
Bank is research, and we make sure that all the elements of the
observatory, including the Science Center, are engineered to
mitigate interference."

Tour buses used to carry visitors on tours of the observatory
grounds make use of diesel engines, to avoid interference from
spark plugs. Tour guide Dave Curry said observatory technicians
periodically track down sources of interference from the
surrounding Pocahontas County countryside.

"They rebuilt one family's doorbell system, and they replaced
another person's electrical heating pad that was being used in a
dog house," he said.

The observatory's remote location on a site sheltered by tall
mountain ridges was chosen to shelter radio telescopes from
unwanted interference. It is located in the center of the
National Radio Quiet Zone, a 13,000 square-mile area set aside
by the Federal Communications Commission as a preserve for radio
astronomy.

The observatory is a National Science Foundation facility,
operated by Associated Universities Inc., a nonprofit coalition
of nine Northeastern universities, which operate four other
radio astronomy observatories for the NSF.

Tours take place on the hour, and last about one hour, including
a science demonstration and a short film on radio astronomy.
There is no fee or admission charge.

The National Radio Astronomy Observatory at Green Bank is
located on W.Va. 92/28, about 25 miles north of Marlinton.







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   Nov > Nov 11

              Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:53:14 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:53:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Roberts


>From: Max Burns <max.burns@ntlworld.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 17:41:19 -0000
>Subject: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

Pilgrims,

Max wrote:

>I am pleased to announce the release of the latest issue of Dr
>Larry O'Hara's magazine "Notes From The Borderland".

>The magazine is over 60 pages with many interesting articles on
>which more below.

>The article you may wish to read is my exposure of
>disinformation experts within Ufology. My 12,000 word article is
>completely footnoted.

<snip>

Having read the article in some depth I can honestly say that
all right-minded ufologists will want to acquire it immediately.
As a text book example of how an obsessive personality can
invent something our of nothing it's excellent.

However, instead of wasting your money on buying it, I'll have
it scanned by Thursday and will happily send free copies on
request.


Happy Trails

Andy








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   Nov > Nov 11

                              UFOs Over Caracas

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 19:26:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:57:52 -0500
Subject: UFOs Over Caracas


Source: Anyos-Luz
Date: Friday, November 7, 2003, 19:32:58

VENEZUELA: UFOs OVER CARACAS

Imposing and majestic, El Avila, a mythic mountain of dense
jungles and crystalline waterfalls, has become one of the sites
of highest interest to researchers, scientists, spital guides
and curiosity-seekers, all of whom are driven by the intense UFO
activity which has emerged in recent years in the mountain's
vicinity, visiting it to glean greater information on the
development of this elusive phenomenon.

New UFO sightings over Cerro El Avila have been made from
various locations within the [Caracas] metropolitan area. On
October 21, 2003, Mrs. Ligia Peralta reported seeing a strange
luminous object of large proportions which was flying over the
outlying sections of the "La Julia" sector of Cerro El Avila in
Caracas.

The event took place at approximately 07:30 PM while Mrs.
Peralta was making a phone call, leaning against one of the
windows surrounding her dwelling, located on the eighth floor of
a residential complex east of the Venezuelan capital. Peralta
remarked that the strange object "appeared out of nowhere" and
was endowed with a very bright white light; it moved around the
area for a few seconds before vanishing from sight as it flew
over the mountain's summit.

In another report received, it was said that at 0:200 PM on
October 25, five people followed the maneuvers of a circular
object--black in color--which moved dizzyingly over a densely
populated Caracas suburb on the slopes of Cerro El Avila.

According to this report, two of the eyewitnesses stated that
the object "appeared suddenly" and moved quickly "in a straight
line" and far above the peak of a mountain adjacent to the "La
Pastora" sector, also in Caracas, before losing itself between
the clouds and vanishing from sight. Likewise, in a third report
received on Saturday, October 25, Raquel Rivero reported on the
maneuvers of another object near Mount Avila, this time from the
"Mari Perez" urbanization.

The event occurred only a few minutes before seven o'clock. The
witness stated that she was near the Chacaito subway station
when she grew aware of an intense "whitish blue" light which was
static in the sky, distinguishing itself from other heavenly
bodies for its "great size and luminosity". Finally, Rivero
noted that after having observed the phenomenon for no more than
5 to 10 minutes, it dimmed gradually until it faded away before
the startled eyes of the onlookers.

================================================================

Translation (C) 2003 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Arturo Escalante








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              Punch Biopsy Photos at A.I.C. [was: Newly-Posted

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:01:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:17:07 -0500
Subject: Punch Biopsy Photos at A.I.C. [was: Newly-Posted


>From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 14:50:38 -0600
>Subject: Re: Newly-Posted Photos at A.I.C.

>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 20:23:26 -0500
>>Subject: Newly-Posted Photos at A.I.C.

><snip>

>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/aic/default.html

>>Click on the button marked, 'Physical Evidence'. There are three
>>pages in the section. Some of you may wish to spend a little
>>more time at AIC and I highly recommend that you spend it in the
>>P.O.V. section studying some the material that is archived
>>there. In any event, I hope your visit to A.I.C. is educational,
>>informative and eye-opening.

>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/aic/pev3.htm

Hi Terry,

You wrote:

>The first image is most unusual indeed! I almost get the
>impression that this marking is some sort of a "cattle" brand.

According to several physicians, who each wrote to me
independently of one another, the marks resemble the scar left
behind by a procedure called a "Punch Biopsy". In this rarely
performed procedure, tissue is removed subcutaneously in order
to conduct testing to determine the presence of disease in the
sample. (area) The procedure was also performed in the past to
obtain material for genetic testing, but there are much less
invasive ways to harvest tissue so it is rarely done for that
purpose alone.

The only problem with any of the above is; none of the people in
the photos have ever had a 'punch biopsy'. The doctors were all
stunned to see "so many photographs" of these "rare" punch
biopsies in one place. It is what prompted them to contact me.
They wanted to know how I got so many.

>One would think that any sort of a "medical" device would not
>have the asymmetry displayed by the 5 marks at the top.

People heal differently. That could account for slight
differences in appearance. But one of the things that makes the
marks worthy of further study is the fact that they are pretty
consistent in terms of shape, depth and width from person to
person.

I have one more bit for you to consider.....

None of the doctors I spoke to could figure out why the punch
biopsy scars that are displayed at AIC were all performed over
perfectly healthy appearing tissue! In the 'real' world if
tissue is removed in this manner it is taken from a site where
suspect or diseased looking tissue is present.

Not so in the case of the abductees.

That's why I'm always yelling for an independent _medical_ study
of the abductees. A rigorous medical study could answer many
more questions in a relatively short period of time when
compared to how much 'hard data' we have gathered floundering
around guessing over the last thirty years.

>Does the experiencer have any idea what made the mark?

Which one? Each of those photos represents a different
individual. If they were all photos taken of one experiencer's
mark it wouldn't be worthy of much discussion. What makes it
compelling is the fact that it is happening to so many people
from all over the world who have never met or known one another.

In my small immediate family unit of four, three of us have this
'scoop mark'. I'm here (in public) for some pretty serious
reasons, Terry. My family is involved in this mess. We _all_
need to know just what the hell is going on.


Regards,

John Velez







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   Nov > Nov 11

                   Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:20:19 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:28:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Rimmer


>From: Brad Sparks
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 20:31:18 EST
>Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update [was: Trindade]

>You do not discuss my measurements of roughly 400 to 800
>degs/sec rotational blurring. You need to get out of the 50's
>mindset of pseudoscientific debunkery and move into the world of
>21st century science. I measured the rotational blur on the
>Trindade UFO long before I found Martin Powell's theory of
>inversion of the images from Photos 1 to 2. The physical
>flipping over of an actual object in motion explains the
>otherwise unexplained violent 400-800 degs/sec rotation. A
>hoaxer accidentally inverting a paste-up UFO image on a photo
>does not create any blurring and so hoaxing does not explain the
>violent rotational blurring.

How can you possibly work out the speed of rotation - always
assuming there is any rotation - from a series of still
pictures?

>Here is where quantitative science comes in, listen carefully
>now: The amount of flattening is a lengthening of the object in
>the horizontal direction of flight motion of at minimum
>approximately 0.3 degree of subtended arc (the dome is about 1
>deg wide at widest, 30% of 1 deg is 0.3 deg), which occurs
>during the 1/125th second exposure time. Therefore, based on
>linear-motion-blur the object is traveling about 37 degs/sec
>across the sky (125 x 0.3 =3D 37.5 degs/sec). It's simple physics.

This is getting into the realms of fantasy. How on earth can
measurements of this precision be produced based on what Brad
Sparks himself admits and vague and blurry images?

>Completely independent of that linear-motion-blur measurement I
>measured the flight path of the UFO in the sequence of photos
>and found it moved very roughly 50 degrees between Photos 1 and
>2 across the sky over the ocean and the Trindade island, as it
>started slowing down according to the witnesses' testimonies,
>and it is about 25 degrees between Photos 2 and 3, showing that
>indeed the UFO did slow down just as the witnesses stated. The
>Brazilian Navy reenactment with photographer Bara=FAna arrived at
>an estimate of about 2 seconds between each photo, hence the
>rough AVERAGE angular velocity of the UFO between the first two
>photos is about 25 degs/sec, slowing to about 12 degs/sec
>between the second and third photos. Therefore the PEAK angular
>velocity could well have been 37 degs/sec or more depending on
>the variations of speed, to average out to 25 degs/sec over the
>entire interval between the first two photos.

You know the exact time interval between the photographs then,
do you, down to the fractions of a second which would be needed
for your calculations? Oh no, it's an "estimate" of "about" 2
seconds.

>This is in exact agreement with the completely independent
>linear-motion-blur analysis: The linear-motion blur that
>lengthens and flattens the "dome" indicates the UFO was moving
>at about 37 degs/sec. The flight path across the sky shows the
>angular velocity reached a peak of roughly 37 degs/sec, perfect
>agreement to well within any order-of-magnitude error margins in
>this preliminary analysis. This is quantitative science Ken, not
>debunking pseudoscience.

"Linear motion blur that lengthens and flattens the dome". This
is not quantitative science, it's guesswork dressed up with
impressive looking figures.

>How did the supposed hoaxer Barauna manage to arrange the photo
>images of a supposedly nonexistent UFO to so closely simulate
>and conform to the realistic physics and flight dynamics of an
>actual high speed UFO-type object in complex motion

Flight dynamics which you seem to have invented

>-- when he
>certainly did not know or understand such scientific principles
>and no one on earth until today in 2003 has ever even discussed
>these parameters of the Trindade photos before???

Maybe because there's actually nothing to discuss. C'mon, we are
talking about three very blurred images which show no detail
whatsoever. they may be a hoax, they may be real, they may be an
extraterrestrial spaceship, but you are not going to prove this
one way or another with figures based on wishful thinking and
guesswork.

>Needless to
>say any "Twin Bonanza" civil aircraft rotating at 400-800
>degs/sec is a doomed vehicle with a life expectancy of seconds
>before crash impact or midair disintegration and was not
>photographed here.

>But there is more.

Oh yes, lots more, forgive me if I don't work my way through it
all, Mr Sparks. Are your calculations, along with the detailed
analysis of your first generation prints (is this documented?)
available on a website, or in published form, so that those of
us with some scientific knowledge can confirm your calculations,
rather than taking it all on trust?






   UFO UpDates
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 11

                  Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <editor@perceptions.couk.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:46:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:31:25 -0500
Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Dickenson


>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:40:10 -0000
>Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme

>Most people should recognise that the BBC are part of
>the establishment, therefore, sceptical journalism is
>almost certainly part of the territory.

>Expect no breakthrough with this media, that is why our
>screens are filled , with the same old sceptics, who trot
>out the same old lines, everyone else is nuts, and they are
>not.

Hello Roy, and All,

You should know here that "Perceptions" has had previous
problems with BBC hacks' readiness to lie and obfuscate in
furtherance of a monolithic "big brother" facade for public
consumption and deception.

If you have patience with that sort of thing would recommend

http://www.perceptions.couk.com/beebvbeeb.html

or "beebvbeeb" at Google but please don't expect every item to
hit you as equally important - to someone else they _will_ be.

Getting back to the UFO arena and current list
subject:"believers", it seems that 'belief' is not to be derided
(as skeptics routinely do) but is an active and indeed necessary
factor in certain experiments and experiences - check "magic or
mass" or "psyche storms" or "perceptions poltergeists" at
Google.

We seem to be living in interesting times.

Best regards

Ray Dickenson

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 11

                    Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Mori

From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:02:02 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 09:51:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Mori


>From: Brad Sparks
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 20:31:18 EST
>Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update [was: Trindade]

>I see no response to the fact that Noguez proposes the
>pseudoscientific notion

Can you quote where Noguez "proposes ... double exposure"? At
the end of your message you explained how you somehow understood
that because Noguez suggested a photomontage of a Twin Bonanza,
and the Twin Bonanza was proposed by Powell, and Powell claimed
double exposure, then Noguez also claimed double exposure, along
with photomontage, of course. This, despite the fact that Noguez
explicitly claims in his conclusion photomontage, and only
photomontage, with no margin for reasonable confusion.

>that a double exposure could subtract
>light and create a darker object in the Trindade photos. Can you
>find any competent photographer or optical physicist who will
>say that a double exposure can _subtract_ light?? Find me one
>Ken!

Of course, there's no "negative light", there isn't any anti-
photon, and even if it did, it probably wouldn't undo what a
photon already did to a photo-reactive chemical film. No one
said anything to the contrary. But, relevant to the point, it
must be noted that, in practice, it's really possible to create
a dark object on a light background through double-exposure.
Manuel Borraz provides this explanation, which should be read
with this nice illustration:
http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/ceticismoaberto/tsimul.jpg
"There's a double exposure of the image of the landscape A and
the image B of the UFO with a white background. The result would
be something like C. There was no light subtraction at this
point. But if you darken the result, to compensate for the
overexposure" -- in practice, "light subtraction", on the whole
image -- "you will get something like D". Overexposure...
Trindade... I could swear I already heard these two words spoken
by one photographer about his photos. But, no, I don't want to
talk about double exposure, at least for now, Noguez didn't
claim double exposure in his work, and let's discuss first what
wasn't much discussed until now: the inversion.

>A
>hoaxer accidentally inverting a paste-up UFO image on a photo
>does not create any blurring and so hoaxing does not explain the
>violent rotational blurring.

Well, I sincerely would like to be as certain as you. Both of
the rotational blurring and of the impossibility of creating
this by any hoax method, if it indeed exists. You didn't analyze
the original negatives, did you? I'm asking this because when I
tried to get the attention of the brazilian ufologists about the
apparent inversion, the answer, published on the brazilian UFO
magazine on a text by Alexandre Borges defending the
authenticity of the photo, is that with no analysis of the
negatives, "no study .. can be considered as serious".

So, both to read in detail your work on the case, and to see the
reactions about it from the brazilian ufologists, I eagerly
await for it. Sincerely.

>Thus the flipping over of the object is not an "ad hoc"
>explanation simply designed to explain away some difficulty, but
>is a logical physical consequence of the measured rotation which
>was discovered first before anything about the image
>"inversion." This is scientific reasoning.

Maybe. If you already considered a violent rotational motion,
then accepting a flipping UFO is not just an ad hoc explanation.
But read below. Other assumptions may be.

>There are no "shadows" in the overcast
>sky illumination -- here you are refuted even by debunker Capt.
>Sunderlund who admits "the disc ... shows no shadow effect."

Sunderland wrote: "the disc is hazy and has little contrast and
shows no shadow effect. It also appears that the object was
inverted in photograph 2 compared to 1 and 3". It may be
anyone's guess, but probably the fact that he says there was no
shadow effect has some relation to his claim that the object was
inverted in one of the photos. In this case, the amazing
flipping shadows, or the amazing non-existent shadows, both
relate to inversion assumed as consequence of a hoax.

>There is a dark patch on the bottom or top of the object
>(depending on the flipping) which is obviously too dark and too
>small to be a shadow, and is in an exposed location rather than
>under a sheltered spot under say the equatorial "Saturn ring"
>The telltale giveaway that this is rotational blurring (as with
>an object flipping over) is the fact the blurring is greatest at
>the extreme edges of the object and that the image at those
>edges is dispersed up-and-down vertically in the direction of
>the rotational motion rather than laterally as with rectilinear
>bulk motion of the object in flight (which is also present, see
>below). The amount of rotational blur is proportional to the
>distance from the axis of rotation. The farther away from the
>center the more the blur, an unmistakable effect.

Let's assume the UFO was rotating violently Brad. Amazing thing
that Barauna managed to capture it when it was more or less on
the horizontal on four photos, and presumedly, on the other two,
totalling six photos of a kind of horizontal UFO that was
actually flipping violently.

Also, it's wonderful how all the witnesses could see a blurred
and unclear UFO of less than a couple of milimeters on the
original developed negatives (which were later "treated" to make
the UFO "more visible"), but in the actual sighting no one
realized that the UFO not only was wobbling, but actually
flipped over.

Let's also consider that "dark spot", which to you is
"obviously" not a shadow, which should have been then very
remarkable to everyone, but no one seems to have described. Oh
well, these last two would be testimony. So, please consider
them just as details.

Repeating then: the amazing thing based on physical evidence is
how the UFO seems to be kind of levelled on all four photos when
it was in fact in violent rotational motion. You mention how the
"amount of rotational blur is proportional to the distance from
the axis of rotation". Does this blur also relate to the linear
motion? The resulting blur should be kind of complex, kind of
helical, and all depending on the more than one axis and the
point of view of the photos. And then, continue reading.

>Why is the UFO "dome" approximately 30% flatter in Photo 2 and
>than in Photo 3? You need to explain this needless complication
>in any hoax theory Ken. If it was a hoaxer taking duplicate
>photos of the same object why would the shape change at all? How
>can you explain that from a debunking perspective? Anyone can
>see the UFO is flatter initially. The answer is simple: The
>object came in at high speed then slowed down, so the initial
>images show LATERAL MOTION BLUR (contrary to Capt. Sunderland's
>nonsense that there was "no lateral blurring as would occur with
>any reasonable shutter speed").

Oh, here you mention lateral motion blur in the "initial
images". That should be the first and second photos, at least.
So, I presume the "rotational motion blur" "proportional to the
distance form the axis" was measured on the third, and maybe
fourth photos. This also relates to something you wrote below,
so remember my emphasis here.

Anyway. What puzzles me more than the "dome" being flatter or
not on photo 2 or 3, is the question of similarity in itself. Is
it almost identical on photos 1 and 2 (but inverted)? The UFO
was at different distances and angles (almost inverted) on these
two photos. You need to explain this in any authentic UFO theory
Brad. The flipping UFO with no shadow effect does not seems to
deal with all this. I do hope your "scientific reasoning" and
"quantitative science" presents a plausible phyisical
explanation for all this similarity amidst all this rotation and
movement. And one very important question: having access to
first prints, what do you think of the similarity of the images
of the UFO on photos 3 and 4, but flipped (the image)? Can you
confirm it?

>Here is where quantitative science comes in, listen carefully
>now: The amount of flattening is a lengthening of the object in
>the horizontal direction of flight motion of at minimum
>approximately 0.3 degree of subtended arc (the dome is about 1
>deg wide at widest, 30% of 1 deg is 0.3 deg), which occurs
>during the 1/125th second exposure time. Therefore, based on
>linear-motion-blur the object is traveling about 37 degs/sec
>across the sky (125 x 0.3 =3D 37.5 degs/sec). It's simple physics.

If you assume that the UFO was at 0 deg/sec on photo 3, isn't
it? Otherwise, you will be only measuring the difference of
speed. And also assuming it wasn't rotating (but wait a minute:
didn't you measure "rotational motion blur" on the third
photo?), and that the "dome" is not a shadow, and doesn't change
its size or shape depending on the angle to which we view it,
and the distance difference is not significative... It's only
"simple" if you make it simple by making a lot of unwarranted
assumptions. Please explain if I got anything wrong, otherwise
you did.

>Completely independent of that linear-motion-blur measurement I
>measured the flight path of the UFO in the sequence of photos
>and found it moved very roughly 50 degrees between Photos 1 and
>2 across the sky over the ocean and the Trindade island, as it
>started slowing down according to the witnesses' testimonies,
>and it is about 25 degrees between Photos 2 and 3, showing that
>indeed the UFO did slow down just as the witnesses stated. The
>Brazilian Navy reenactment with photographer Bara=FAna arrived at
>an estimate of about 2 seconds between each photo, hence the
>rough AVERAGE angular velocity of the UFO between the first two
>photos is about 25 degs/sec, slowing to about 12 degs/sec
>between the second and third photos. Therefore the PEAK angular
>velocity could well have been 37 degs/sec or more depending on
>the variations of speed, to average out to 25 degs/sec over the
>entire interval between the first two photos.
>This is in exact agreement with the completely independent
>linear-motion-blur analysis: The linear-motion blur that
> lengthens and flattens the "dome" indicates the UFO was moving
>at about 37 degs/sec. The flight path across the sky shows the
>angular velocity reached a peak of roughly 37 degs/sec, perfect
>agreement to well within any order-of-magnitude error margins in
>this preliminary analysis. This is quantitative science Ken, not
>debunking pseudoscience.

Now, interesting how this "quantitative science" based on, as I
understood, unwarranted assumptions, made some coincidences. I'm
serious. Maybe your assumptions were correct, but I wouldn't
accept that just because of this. Did any witness describe this
"dome" so remarkable and constant that's being used as
reference? I once more refer to testimony, and once again ask
you to take it only as detail. Back to physical evidence, did
you use the dome as reference on all the photos, and did the
resulting calculations of estimated speed also agree with other
independent data on speed and trajectory? This is what would be
science.

>The Cruzeiro do Sul Aerophotogrammetric Service also examined
>the original negatives and found no evidence of fraud or
>tampering. Nor do I find any evidence of photomontage or other
>hoaxing and I specifically must refer to the fact that there is
>no evidence whatsoever of DIFFERING GRAIN STRUCTURE or GRAIN
>DENSITY between the film inside the UFO images and the
>surrounding sky, nor any sign of EDGES of a photomontage paste-
>on.

If you didn't detect evidence of fraud, this is something
important. I'm not kidding. Nevertheless, the question of
inversion continues to puzzle me, and it seems there's no
convincing explanation for it.

>So your hoax theories are toast from a scientific standpoint.

I don't think so. No photoanalysis can prove a photo to be
genuine. It can only prove a hoax. The fact that a fraud wasn't
detected doesn't prove, "scientifically", that there was no
fraud, trickery or hoax. And you still didn't explain
convincingly what you already accepted: the fact that the image
of the UFO is inverted on two photos.

>The grain density and structure of the UFO images are an
>integral part of the Trindade island photography, and must have
>been photographed together, at the same time, and a photomontage
>is thus an impossibility. Again I must point out a double-
>exposure is also a physical impossibility because double
>exposures cannot subtract light and darken the image. When I
>began my latest investigation I believed that examination of
>first-generation copies would immediately reveal signs of hoax
>and settle the controversy. That did not prove to be the case
>(unlike Barra da Tijuca which is conclusively a hoax).

About double exposure, see the beggining of this message.
Curiously, in the Barra da Tijuca case, the most telling
evidence of fraud are the impossible shadows. How convenient it
is that on Trindade there was "no shadow effect", and you assume
this even if, contrary to Sunderland, you accept that the UFO
was real.

>Scientific studies by my Trindade Research Project in the U.S.,
>with help from many abroad, are still underway and will not be
>ready for publication until next year some time, at present
>estimates. ... It is time-consuming and
>expensive, and without major resources of large institutions
>with big budgets.

I sincerely praise your initiative and efforts. I hope this
discussion also have some positive impact on your work, and on
any work being done on the case, that really needs more studies
and evidence.

>I have been analyzing first-generation prints made from the
>negatives from two different sources.

Excellent. This makes even more remarkable that you recognized
the inversion. If you allow me to repeat once again, no
ufologist in Brazil recognized the inversion as relevant.
Quoting again what Borges published on the November 2002 edition
of the Brazilian UFO magazine, "the claim of the inversion of
the position of the UFO from photo 1 to photo 2 ... is not
supported".

Then, I repeat my question to you about the similarity of the
images of the UFO on photos 3 and 4 (vertically flipped and with
some resizing). Can you please confirm it or deny it?

>Sorry you read it dead wrong, Noguez combines all three mutually
>exclusive and contradictory hoaxing theories into one rambling
>discombobulated scenario: In his "Conclusion" section, Noguez
>flatout asserts as fact, not suggestion or hypothesis, that the
>friends of photographer Bara=FAna suggested to him doing a hoax

<snip>

>Noguez then claims that they wanted to use photos
>of a mist-covered Twin Bonanza aircraft (supposedly "saucer
>looking") but that they did not have any such aircraft photos on
>board the ship. There is in fact not a shred of evidence anyone
>took any such Twin Bonanza photos or that such photos ever
>existed in Brazil, this is a theory concocted by Martin Powell
>in 1999, the first anyone heard of it. And Powell's theory,
>which Noguez does not dispute in any way, is that of a DOUBLE
>EXPOSURE of the hypothetical fogged-Twin Bonanza aircraft
>superimposed on the Trindade island backdrop

Here is your (mis)interpretation of what Noguez wrote. What he
did wrote was "the photographer had the task to take the shots
and do the photomontage". Not, in any point of his conclusion,
does he quote Powell, or even mentions the expression "double
exposure". If you understood it this way, I must say, it was
your fault. I didn't understood it this way, and the author
himself is extremely well aware that double exposure and
photomontage are different and mutually exclusive.

>Noguez completely omits the crucial fact here that the ship's
>captain suddenly decided to order the IMMEDIATE DEVELOPMENT of
>the UFO photos right on board the ship right after his crew had
>seen the UFO -- despite the fact the ship HAD NO DARKROOM.

Well, if you read his entire work, you read that he did quote
about how the film was indeed developed aboard. He did it more
than one time and from more than one source. The fact that you
say he omits this information is evidence that you didn't read,
or didn't understand the work you're criticizing.

If you did read, you may also have read that "immediate" is
actually more than an hour after the shots, because Barauna was
"nervous", and that no prints were made because there was no
photographic paper.

>How
>could the hypothetical hoaxers, Bara=FAna and Company, have
>possibly anticipated the captain's decision to immediately
>develop the UFO film, that was sure to risk exposing any hoax or
>skullduggery???

I guess, assuming it was a planned hoax, if this request for
"immediate" (in fact, when Barauna himself felt willing to, more
than an hour later) development of the film took him by
surprise, it couldn't have surprised him more than the fact that
after that he could take the film home to -- for the first time
-- develop the prints, cut the film, and even treat it and
discard two shots before Bacellar and the Navy took hold of the
film again. No hoaxer would count on such luck.

>And let me remind you that the Navy personnel verified that the
>UFO film images matched what crew members had just seen minutes
>before.

>Yet Noguez keeps insisting on inserting this Powell double-
>exposure-fogged-aircraft hoax theory into the story where it
>does not fit -- read Noguez' article don't take my word for it.

Yes, I did read Noguez article. It's published on my website,
with his kind consent, for almost a year. Yet, as I must repat,
he didn't claim double-exposure.

>So why did they need to make a film "substitution" or switch at
>all? Substituting what for what??? Why did Bara=FAna need to do a
>"photomontage" aboard the ship as Noguez keeps insisting? Where
>did Bara=FAna supposedly get his fake "UFO images" to mount in a
>photomontage onto the negatives of Trindade island scenes in the
>10 minutes he had in the makeshift darkroom? What the hell is
>Noguez trying to say in all this babbling slanderous nonsense!!!

I seriously suspect you didn't read in its entirety, or at least
didn't understand very well what Noguez wrote. You do make some
valid criticisms, but you ignore many arguments. A lot of
questions you made are answered on the very own work you're
criticizing. You also ignore that he's suggesting a "plausible
scenario", and clearly recognizes that he can be wrong. There's
no need, and more important, no reason for all this outrage.

>I didn't say it was "malicious" but I will say it is
>"convenient" that Noguez' pseudoscience remains inaccessible to
>English language researchers who cannot translate from Spanish,
>and therefore have had no opportunity to dissect and refute his
>farrago of nonsense. It is not my responsibility to translate
>Noguez' work it is his responsibility as the author

Oh, everyone has the "responsibility" to translate to English?
Do you plan to translate your work to any language, Brad? I
guess you must, at the very least, translate it to Portuguese.
Oh, does this demand seem a bit over, to someone who is already
doing his work for free and thinking only on contributing to
serious research? If it does, then it shows my point.

Your implication that it is "convenient" that Noguez work isn't
translated, suggesting that it wasn't translated because he
wants to make it hidden is outrageous to any sensible person.
Why would he do the work if he wanted it "hidden"? Are you
saying that he trusted your implicated incompetence of Spanish
ufology and experts?

You see, this is a real and justified reason for outrage. You
not only offended all non-English people, you essentialy insists
on it.

>My point was that _handling_ pieces of film possibly as small as
>2 mm or 1/10 inch in size would be extremely difficult to do and
>to paste onto dripping wet negatives just developed, all in 10
>minutes' time inside a tiny ship's lavatory turned into a
>darkroom moments before.

I didn't suggest that. Even Noguez didn't suggest that. So, I
wonder why you made the point.

>I did not say it would be difficult to _see_ such a small piece
>of film, and the suggestion is patently ludicrous.

>Do you know anything about optics or physics??

<snip>

>If you cannot see the UFO image on the
>film even at four inches from your face then you might just have
>20/200 vision or worse, and be legally _blind_ to say nothing of
>being scientifically challenged.

The UFO on the negatives was an unclear and blurred something
smaller than "-". This is reasonably certain, as even on the
prints we have, the UFO is still unclear on its details and
blurred. There's the possibility that Barauna may have actually
blurred the UFO afterwards, to avoid the detection of fraud, or
that the negatives that the crew saw were entirely different
from what we now see on the prints, or some other things. But
you certainly wouldn't suggest any of that.

So, if someone could see this unclear and blurred "-" in detail
on the original "wet" negatives, but couldn't see dark spots on
the actual sighting and at least one flipping, then I must say
this is somehow contradictory. But this again is to discuss
testimony. The problem is, it's probably impossible to know how
was the original developed negative at the time, even if we got
the original negative, we know it was later treated, by Barauna
himself. So, this point is actually weak and may never be
verified or even verifiable on the physical evidence. It's more
weak if we remember that we don't have the names of almost all
these people who confirmed that what was on the negatives was
what they supposedly saw on the sky. Second hand testimony, even
"official", is still second hand testimony. And testimony is
testimony, not physical evidence.

To sum up.....

I wrote:

http://www.strbrasil.com/ca/trindadehoax.htm

"... we can suggest that all four photos are different versions
of the same original image ... The first photo is rotated 180
degress in relation to the second and third, and the fourth
photo would be a vertically flipped image, with some resizing
... I expect that this initiative helps to bring more serious
interest to deny or to confirm the information indicated here"

You have first prints from two different sources. You confirmed
the similarity, at least between the first and second photos. I
ask you to please analize the other suggestions made, and quoted
above. Is there any similarity in the image of the UFO in photos
3 and 4 (vertically flipped, and resized)? How much so?

This is a request that I also make to anyone with first prints on
hand.


Cordially,

Kentaro Mori








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   Nov > Nov 11

                     Re: A 1957 Wave Comparison - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:57:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:37:14 -0500
Subject: Re: A 1957 Wave Comparison - Colvin


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 20:31:52 -0800
>Subject: A 1957 Wave Comparison

Larry,

During my tour of duty as a Communications Watch Officer with
Allied Forces South in Naples, Italy (1/77 - 1/80), I observed
media reports and listened to sighting reports from family,
friends, and co-workers.

The "wave" of low-level and occupant sightings occurred in early
1978. My Pinetamare robotic device report posted here is an
example of the activity.

Is there a mini-wave for Italy?

Terry


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com







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             RCMP HQ Release of 'Space Objects Contingency Plan'

From: Chris Styles <cjas55@yahoo.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:58:57 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:08:06 -0500
Subject: RCMP HQ Release of 'Space Objects Contingency Plan'


[canufo] Royal Canadian Mounted Police HQ release of 'Space
Objects Contingency Plan' aka 'The Master Plan'


Hello Everyone;

I am pleased to announce the release of an RCMP policy document
known as "The Space Objects Contingency Plan" or "The Master
Plan. It is a 50 page manuel that details the procedures
employed by RCMP members when they work with other Canadian and
American authorities to recover any space based object that has
entered the atmosphere and come to rest within Canadian
jurisdiction.

"The Master Plan" includes many interesting details - ie:

the escorting of American authorities to any impact site, upon
request, which ranking members decide whether or not to remove
any deceased bodies, how close to approach an unknown object
from upwind (50 feet), how big a perimeter to establish at any
impact site in an inhabited area (500 feet), who is the lead
agency once on the scene (DND), scripts for media questions,
etc.

The term UFO does not appear anywhere in the document. However,
all of the proceedures described are consistent with many of the
observations described by civilian witnesses RE: RCMP behavior
when investigating UFO cases where the force conducted searches
for unknown objects on land and in the water. Though the policy
existed in various forms as early as the 50s and 60s it was
supplemented and formalized in the 70s, largely due to the crash
of Cosmos 954 in the Canadian High Arctic and the threat of
Skylab.

"The Space Object Contingency Plan"  was released to me on
October 8, 2003 as the result of a formal Access To Information
Request made on May 2, 2003. The unusually lengthy response time
was attributed to the fact that the RCMP archivist needed to
seek clearance from 10 other government agencies. My request was
an assignment from MUFON's "MAX Committee", of which I am a
member. That Committee seeks to document missing and exploited
UFO cases and policies. Future discoveries from other searches
will appear on this list as they become available.


Chris Styles
Canadian Director of Investigations (MUFON)








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                   Re: Strange Noises From The Sky - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:58:12 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:24:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange Noises From The Sky - McCoy


>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 17:01:08 -0200
>Subject: Strange Noises From The Sky

>Source: St. George Daily Spectrum, UT

>http://www.thespectrum.com/news/stories/20031109/topstories/613898.html

>High Country Beat

>By Ed Kociela

<snip>

>I haven't seen anything funny in the sky, but I sure have heard
>some strange rumblings - and I know it's for real because my
>wife has heard them and even my dogs have been startled from
>their napping a couple of times over the past few weeks by
>strange noises from the sky.

>Not long ago, another friend told me he saw the B-2 bomber
>flying over Cedar Mountain. This guy is about to become a pilot
>and has a set of eyes on him that an eagle would covet, so I
>don't doubt his report.

>The B-2, however, doesn't sound like some of the things that
>have shaken my home and ears.

>Whatever it is, it's flying very high - out of my eyesight at
>least - and fast. And with the sound seemingly echoing around
>the valley, it's difficult to pinpoint the spot in the sky where
>this aircraft is flying.

<snip>

>I have noticed that there have been a number of corkscrew
>contrails flowing across the sky, indicating some sort of jet
>propulsion. Normal jet engines do not produce that kind of
>pattern, at least in my experience. Calling the U.S. Air Force
>would be futile, especially since we are so close to Area 51 and
>Nellis Air Force Base where the military does things we're not
>supposed to know about. But if anybody else has heard or seen
>something strange in the skies, let me know. I hate to sound
>like Art Bell, but there is definitely something odd going on
>above us.

Hello, All.

Well, well, sounds like "Project Aurora" got some funding
again.I've seen the odd contrails,heard the Rumbling,booming
(Pulse Inigniton) noises more than once over the remote west
coast.

Also a very fast controlled, aircraft. Two actually.

About Two years ago Coos Bay, Oregon had an experience with
these rumbling, booming sounds:F-15's of the Oregon Air Guard,
according to the media release. Okay. Right. (Been around
F-15s/F- 16's a lot - none sound like that.)

I am convinced that this is a seceret aircraft. Not
extraterresrial. As one friend of mine put it: 'You're up there
all alone, and the space helmet is a little uncomfortable when
you are grinning." - this about the A-12/SR71.


GT McCoy







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                  What On Earth Is Going On At The Vatican?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:41:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:41:03 -0500
Subject: What On Earth Is Going On At The Vatican?





Images accompany the following article

ebk

-----

Source: Free Press International

http://www.freepressinternational.com/vatican.html

What On Earth Is Going On At The Vatican?
By Greg Ericson

11.10.2003


On October 8, 1995 Vatican Priest Monsignor Corrada Balducci
went on National Television in Italy and said Extraterrestrials
do exist. Video In Italian.

Here is the text of the interview:

Bruno Mobrici: Father Balducci, what would you answer to all of
those who claim that the aliens are already among us?

Padre BALDUCCI: We can not longer think... is it true, is it not
true, are they truth or are they lies, if we believe, or if we
don=B4t! There are already many considerations which MAKES THE
EXISTENCE OF THESE BEINGS INTO A CERTAINTY. WE CANNOT DOUBT.
Even if we say that among a hundred of these phenomenon there
are only... even if we said that 99 were false and that one was
true, it=B4s that one that says that some phenomenon exist.
Therefore this is the first problem... it's not anymore... it
doesn't revert anymore to the ambit of human prudence... to
doubt... because... the prudence says to be prudent, but not to
deny.

Bruno Mobrici: "What are the consequences to religion, to
philosophy?"

Padre BALDUCCI: "There are no cons... there's no negative
consequence... all is contemplated, look at the Lord which as
revealed everything to us, because of that we think very well,
even in the human redemption, Christ remains allways the center
of the Universe, but in the Universe there is... it's all...
that... not only the world, but also the thousands of stars, the
thousands of galaxies, and there are... I don't want to reveal
any numbers, but we can without any doubt and rationally at this
point... and we enter now on the second question, how do you
explain... the existence of other inhabited worlds, in what
manner inhabited, by whom inhabited?

Let's look at us... there is an old saying that exists for
centuries that goes: "Natura non facit saltus" eh... "Nature
does not leap" that is... no... there is the vegetal kingdom,
the animal kingdom, the human kingdom... and the angelic
kingdom, the only things, four kingdoms that we know. Three are
natural and we can see them. Between the man, the human being
and the angel, eh... there is a big gap. Here is why, with this
argument, which is well demonstrated by San Tommaso, one of the
biggest theologists, it's probable, it's likely... more than
other... that between man, which has already a spirit inside
him, but a poor one... it is incredibly subjected to matter, for
instance at night we have the need to sleep, while the soul
hasn't. A small illness is enough... in short, it's stuck, and
the angel which is only spirit, it's likely that there are other
beings, who have a soul, that is less attached, less
subordinated to the body and a soul of this kind can obviously
accomplish progress that we, no matter how much we have
progressed in this last decades, are not in the position to
accomplish."

And now on with the story. It turns out the Vatican has two
observatories and five telescopes. The observatories are outside
of Rome and one in Arizona. Now why would the Vatican have a
telescope in Arizona?

... very unusual gold sphere is at the Vatican. It's called "A
Sphere Within A Sphere". What on earth could this mean? We hope
to be able to find answers to these questions in the near future
or maybe our readers know. Please email us at
 news@freepressinternational.com There is another sphere at the
United Nations building that looks exactly like the sphere at
the Vatican!







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   Nov > Nov 11

                      FOIA Regulations Take Another Hit

From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@presidency.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:18:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:45:56 -0500
Subject: FOIA Regulations Take Another Hit


Below is observation by MUFON Director John Schuessler which
will be of interest to this list.


As if the FOIA process wasn't useless enough, the NSA received
an exemption for all "operational files." The Federation of
American Scientists released the following information:

The National Security Agency was granted the exemption it has
requested from the Freedom of Information Act for so-called
"operational files" that reflect the technical means by which
the Agency collects intelligence. Files designated as
"operational" will not need to be searched and reviewed in
response to FOIA requests.

But the new exemption, contained in the conference version of
the 2004 Defense Authorization Act, follows the amended Senate
version, which is more narrowly crafted than the NSA had
initially proposed. As urged by openness advocates, the
exemption is limited to records produced in two particular
Agency directorates, and cannot be applied to archived
historical records.

Other provisions of note in the new Defense Authorization Act
include a measure that will expand the Defense Department's
polygraph testing program (while simultaneously eliminating
public reporting requirements), and a measure to increase
transparency of Iraqi reconstruction contracts.

See these exerpts from the House-Senate conference report on the
2004 Defense Authorization Act here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2003/defauth.html

--
__________________________________________________________






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   Nov > Nov 12

                  Re: Humanoids Without Saucers - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <editor@perceptions.couk.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:23:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:38:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Humanoids Without Saucers - Dickenson


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 00:06:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: Humanoids Without Saucers - Colvin

>Where is the evidence, the bodies of these supernatural
>creatures? What portion is inside the head and what portion
>is outside the head. Where does false memory syndrome and
>the manipulative dissociative identify disorder, formerly
>called multiple personality disorder, fit in with all
>this? - twc

Hello TWC and All,

You raise interesting points in your look-back to the 40's 50's
& 60's.

A while ago was asked to research and publish a tourist-type
leaflet on NW Shropshire ('cos local gov't stuff was u/s) and
put some space aside for folk-lore / local legends / plus ghost
stories (it became v. popular with locals _and_ tourists - had
to extend print run)

Apart from stories tied to death of an actual person, ie
murders, wrongful executions etc, the rest are divided, like
Terry's stuff, into humanoids (some "large" some "small" -
perceived as people) and strange animals - as perceived (like,
large "dogs" common in some areas).

A large humanoid, say 2.5 meters to 3 meters, in shiny or
metallic rig, was reported (in living memory), and "little
people" were widespread.

That's maybe why some speculative pages (like "psyche storms" -
Google) tend to Jacques Vall=E9e's own speculations (or further -
into "info-space"?).

And

http://www.perceptions.couk.com/bigscrt.txt

Vallee's intro to "UFOs and the National Security State" by
Richard Nolan - also might account for a strong distrust of all
establishment stuff.

See:

http:// www.perceptions.couk.com/reports.txt

rough text list of some official statements on UFO's from 1947
on.

Thinking hurts!


Best regards

Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






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                     Re: A 1957 Wave Comparison - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:25:37 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:39:48 -0500
Subject: Re: A 1957 Wave Comparison - Hatch


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:57:27 -0700
>Subject: Re: A 1957 Wave Comparison

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>>To: Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 20:31:52 -0800
>>Subject: A 1957 Wave Comparison

>Larry,

>During my tour of duty as a Communications Watch Officer with
>Allied Forces South in Naples, Italy (1/77 - 1/80), I observed
>media reports and listened to sighting reports from family,
>friends, and co-workers.

>The "wave" of low-level and occupant sightings occurred in early
>1978. My Pinetamare robotic device report posted here is an
>example of the activity.

>Is there a mini-wave for Italy?

>Terry

= = = =

Hi Terry:

Filtering for Italian cases only, there is a definite mini-wave
in 1978 according to my data. Look at these annual counts.

1960-1970   0 to 10 cases per year.
1971-1976   7 to 21 cases/year
1977        40 cases
1978        125 cases
1979        37 cases
1980-1999   0 to 8 cases/year

This overlooks the 1954 wave of course, but over 40 years, 1978
stands out unmistakably.

For all years combined, Italian sightings are 2 or 3 times as
frequent  in the second half of the year (July-Dec) as they are
in the first 6 months.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                Devices That Read Human Thought Now Possible

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:05:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:46:57 -0500
Subject: Devices That Read Human Thought Now Possible


Finally this info sees the light of day!

And special thanks to Allen Barker!

-----

To:   mcactivism@yahoogroups.com
From: Allen Barker
Date sent: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:21:53 -0500
Subject: [mcactivism] Devices that read human thought now possible

Devices that read human thought now possible, study says Brain
implants could help severely disabled

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/11/10/MNGK82U4MV1.DTL

Carl T. Hall, Chronicle Science Writer


New Orleans -- Less than a month after a widely heralded
experiment showed how thought-reading implants can work in
monkeys, scientists presented new findings Sunday suggesting
such machines could work in people, too.

Dr. Miguel A.L. Nicolelis of Duke University said previously
unreported human experiments demonstrated success with one type
of a so-called brain computer interface, or BCI.

He and others discussed their latest findings Sunday at the
annual meeting in New Orleans of the Society for Neuroscience,
the world's largest gathering of brain researchers. About 28,000
people are attending the weeklong event.

Much of the attention on Sunday was given to technology designed
to overcome paralyzing injuries or illnesses afflicting the
nervous system. About 11,000 new cases arise every year, adding
to a total estimated at more than 200,000.

Nicolelis said the new study had been done in a few Parkinson's
disease patients while they were undergoing open-skull
neurosurgery for their disease.

Full results, he said, have been submitted for peer review to a
scientific journal and were not a formal part of the program, in
which he and colleagues reported new details from the monkey
experiments already published.

Nicolelis said the important point was that the principle had
been shown to work: People can control devices merely by
thinking.

Ultimately, it may be possible to design high-tech implants that
can read and direct the muscles using the patient's own
intentions and natural sensory equipment.

For now, it's a much less grandiose business of just tuning the
equipment to the human brain's frequency.

In the Duke experiments, patients were being fitted with
standard electrical stimulator devices, which can help to
control Parkinson's symptoms.

This procedure requires the patient to be awake while the
surgeon identifies a safe route through brain tissue, taking
care not to harm brain cells needed for essential functions. As
part of that process, the surgeon periodically asks the patient
to speak or move while recording localized brain activity.

Nicolelis and his colleagues took advantage of the opportunity
and recorded the information the surgeon was obtaining. Then,
for five-minute periods while the patient was being operated on,
they conducted simple reaching-and-grasping experiments to
determine whether the patient's intentions could accurately be
read -- the first essential step in controlling a limb by
computer implant.

That's a far cry from proving that a workable long-term implant
would be safe and effective. Nicolelis said it was much too soon
to "even think about" moving any particular device into full-
blown clinical trials.

A competing group, however, led by founders and collaborators of
a company called Cyberkinetics Inc., has announced plans to
begin a small safety study next year of an implant designed to
allow a paralyzed patient to control a desktop computer.

That device, called "BrainGate," is based on research at Brown
University,

led by scientist John Donaghue. He and other company officials
described the technology on Sunday as a "novel gateway" for
people with no other options.

"These are the opening days of a new era in neurotechnology,"
Donaghue said.

The competition, however, has gotten somewhat testy of late amid
an explosion of interest. Some scientists accuse Nicolelis of
overreaching, noting that his latest monkey experiment actually
wasn't the first to show a "thoughts-into-action" device could
function in a primate; he was merely the first to show that a
monkey's brain firings could be harnessed to direct complicated
movement, involving both reaching and grasping.

Meanwhile, Nicolelis decried the entry of corporate interests
into a field once thought to be purely science fiction, now
being taken seriously as modern medicine at the cutting edge of
technology.

"I am a university professor," Nicolelis said. "I have no
interests in any business. I am Brazilian -- I want to have fun,
I don't want to make money. What I am very afraid of is that
people who really want to make a buck out of this will be
rushing into the clinical thing. I don't believe in that. A lot
of important science needs to be done, and we need to go step by
step in a very careful way."

All the labs claim to be pursuing the technology responsibly.

Donaghue and his colleagues pointed out they were also
university scientists who realized the only way to fully exploit
the technology was to form a company capable of raising the
money needed to carry out very expensive clinical studies.
Cyberkinetics is proceeding with the guidance of the U.S. Food
and Drug Administration.

In the latest studies on people, Nicolelis' Duke group had to
use a simplified version of the animal study protocol to stay
within the bounds of a five-minute surgical window. But that was
still enough, Nicolelis said, to show animal and human brains
can be read much in the same way.

"We are showing the same computational algorithms work, the same
technology in general works, suggesting the principle would work
in a patient that is severely handicapped," Nicolelis said. "We
are able to predict the hand position, and the hand force, while
they are doing the task during the surgery."

Before you can lift even a finger, nerves fire in the brain,
along the spinal cord and nerve pathways of the arm, then back
again in a tightly controlled feedback loop.

Douglas J. Weber, of the University of Alberta in Edmonton,
reported new research Sunday suggesting that the motion of a
limb can be accurately predicted by reading the firings of just
a handful of brain cells -- only 10 or so in one case.

That means it may be simpler than once imagined to tap into the
body's own sensory apparatus to keep some natural motion going
with a brain implant merely as a detour around a damaged spinal
cord or other problem in the brain's natural circuitry.

Dr. Jonathan Wolpaw of the New York State Department of Health's
Wadsworth Center described new methods of reading signals that
can be detected outside and just beneath the surface of the
skull, suggesting the possibility that some devices may not even
have to be implanted into the brain. Implants run some risk of
infections and other problems.

But he and others emphasized it might be several years before
the first such devices were ready for widespread use, and they
noted that the technology worked only in individuals who might
be utterly disabled and "locked in," with no ability to move
even their eyes, and yet had enough healthy brain activity to
drive the implants.

The revolution will start slowly, Wolpaw said, in a few people
"who are the most disabled and who have no other options."








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                                Aliens & ESP

From: Thierry Jonnaert <thierry.jonnaert@pandora.be>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:32:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:50:50 -0500
Subject: Aliens & ESP


Hi list,

Sometimes we learn more about the relation between Aliens and
E.S.P., but all this is still difficult to understand for the
most of the people. Telepathy is understood by a lot of men and
women, but when we talk about 'a vision of the future'... the
most of the people will have their doubts ! Of course... this is
not easy to understand.

It's because we are talking about a reality on a higher level. I
think we have to observe all this with new scientific ideas.
Therefore the ideas of Bohm could help us I think. This
physicist of the University of London understood what Alain
Aspect - University of Paris - discovered: the faster than light
connection between subatomic particles. All this is telling us
about the deeper level of reality!

Following the ideas of Bohm,... at that special level... the
things in the universe are infinitely interconnected. I know...
somebody was already giving information about those ideas, but
now I like to ask you to pay attention to this: The idea of a
Holographic Universe could also be of great importance to
understand paranormal phenomena like E.S.P.and the communication
with Aliens.

Because within this Superhologram the past, present and future
exist simultaneously. So... this means it must be possible to
get a vision of the future, because the future is already
present. The telepathic communication between some people and
Aliens must be based on the reality of this holographic
universe. There is no time or speed of light...disturbing this
communication. This means...even Aliens far away... in another
galaxy... could capture simulteanously the ideas sended by a man
or woman on earth, and so... it could be that this happened
already in the past. The same for ideas sended by Aliens to
people on earth. Of course... we must be very carefull with the
ideas of Aliens or other creatures. As no time is involved the
distance is not more important.


Thierry Jonnaert





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                     Re: Andros Island Case? - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:50:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:14:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Andros Island Case? - Gonzalez


>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 18:31:41 -0400
>Subject: Re: Andros Island Case?

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:23:55 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Andros Island Case?

>>>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 22:09:17 -0300
>>>Subject: Andros Island Case?

>>>Does anyone have any data or information about a UFO filmed over
>>>Andros Island in the Bahamas?

>>>I'm trying to find out if the photographer is still alive.

>>Do you have a date for this, at least an approximate one?

>May 21, 1996 - Andros Island, Golden Key.

>I'm looking to see if the UFOs filmed had the "UMMO" logo )-(

>If so, I will try to contact witnesses.


As far as I know, around 1982 Ted Bloecher had a copy of the
interview with the only witness, by Ralph Blum.

Richard Heiden made a FOIA request about the material without
sucess. I do not know if they checked the witness' background
and reliability, but they did have his name.

Apparently, the incident took place just before an AZROC shot
test. Maybe somebody could check that.

Please, keep us (or me) informed about any developments on this
case.

Yours,

Luis R. Gonzalez Manso







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                  Re: The Universe As A Hologram - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:03:08 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:18:06 -0500
Subject: Re: The Universe As A Hologram - Tonnies


>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:51:00 -0200
>Subject: The Universe As A Hologram

>Source: http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html

>The Universe as a Hologram
>Author unknown

>Does Objective Reality Exist, or is the Universe a Phantasm?

This article reminds me of the following essay I wrote for my
weblog:

Saturday, November 08, 2003

Most of us think of existence as basically linear: to get to
point C from point A, you must first traverse point B. I think
it's more likely (and much more fun) to consider that we're
recreated moment to moment out of raw information, and that
points A, B and C don't exist except in our endlessly
reconstituted minds.

Imagine the reels for every movie ever made - and, more
pertinently, every movie never made. Now imagine cutting this
infinity of footage into single frames. Thirdly, picture putting
every single one of these isolated frames in a blender, chopping
them into microscopic oblivion, and stirring them with the
aerosolized remains of every other frame.

This endless deluge of celluloid confetti is emptied into space,
where it forms a randomized nebula, a pixelated collage of all
possible "sequences." Now suppose we want to view a "movie" of
someone's life (knowing full well that sequentiality is a
cognitive construct with no objective validity). We shine a
laser through the glittering mist of would-have-been films, thus
isolating a single "sequence" of particulated states. If we keep
doing this, we'll quickly find that most of our laser-lit
"sequences" don't make any sense. After all, they're composed of
completely random bits of data (ultimately at the level of
simple "yeses" and "nos", or - if you're into computer metaphors
- ones and zeroes).

But since we're dealing with an infinity of this "powdered
reality," we also recognize that some of the laser beams are
illuminating coherent "storylines." They might break up and
dissolve at some point, but the endless quantity of
possibilities waiting to be realized ensures that they will
resume at some point. In this sense, a given observer's
"reality" is an elaborate, self-maintaining juxtaposition.
Random patterns (read: "sequences") in our hypothetical
embryonic cloud are able to link up with similar, equally
random, patterns - very much like a crystal impregnating a vial
of solution with its own molecular structure. A sort of binary
Darwinism takes hold. Meaningful "sequences" thrive; the rest is
just existential static.

Time needn't be relevant in the cosmic screening room. Whether a
particular pattern emerged in the past or future is irrelevant.
Information from the "past" and "future" (mere cognitive
constructs) freely integrate. This is a realm without spatial or
temporal boundaries. It's something like the "implicate order"
suggested by physicist David Bohm. The "explicate order," of
course, is the intricate sensory illusion that we inhabit. Or
think we do.

The ever-changing patterns in the protean cloud dictate the
nature of whatever universe happens to be illuminated by our
imaginary laser. Since our perceived reality is constantly
modeled by the myriad ones and zeroes in the timeless cloud, we
find ourselves diced into informational slivers. From this
perspective, "continuity" is meaningless. The "I" writing this
sentence could be hundreds of billions of "I"s removed from the
one that wrote the last sentence. More disturbingly, "I" might
not have existed at all until right . . . now.

The newly formed "I" happens to have "memories" of composing
this essay, but memories, like everything else, are simply
advantageous fluctuations in the filmic cloud, subject to
constant revision. And since I'm ostensibly a component in day-
to-day reality, it's inevitable that the randomly constructed
parameters that define my world - all of it, from my living room
to the coffeeshop down the street to the structure of galaxies -
 is every bit as flimsy and malleable. Reincarnation is quite
real. It's happening all the time - invisibly.

Several months ago I was in an automobile crash. My memories
contain the adrenalized moment of impact, the literally
breathless aftermath as I pondered the crushed metal and broken
glass, and a trip to a hospital inside an ambulance. It would
appear I survived, albeit bruised and aching. But who am I to
tell the story of what "really" happened? Perhaps the arc of my
life, as defined by the fluctuating patterns (and bits of would-
be pattern) in the cosmic screening room bifurcated shortly
before I collided with the other car. In one variation I came to
a bloody end. In yet another there was never an accident at all.

I pick the crash incident not because of any intrinsic
importance - at the most fundamental level, the blind dance of
possibilities doesn't care if I live or die - but because it
illustrates how flawlessly one or two frames can be altered (or
randomly inserted or deleted) to potentially catastrophic effect
in the observable world. So long as a pattern remains intact --
 and it will, since it has infinite space and time to organize
itself - so will some permutation of "I."

Which begs the question: What happens when someone dies? It's
possible that informational death is impossible and that the
person who "dies" in the "explicate order" is expediently
recycled, living his or her life again and again in a state of
total amnesia. Or maybe something like my crash incident applies
and that observers who die - in the directly perceivable world -
 are shuffled into a future in which they "miraculously" survive
their own crashes (or cancer treatments or heart transplants).

There's nothing concrete or absolute about our so-called
universe. It is an alluring, insidiously clever simulation. The
Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum physics implies that the
universe is constant "branching" into parallel, exclusive
states. A better term, in light of the scenario described above,
might be "flowing."

Acknowledgement:

For a fictional excursion into similar territory, I recommend
Greg Egan's "Permutation City," which examines the existential
status of electronic copies of the human nervous system.


=====

Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)







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               Re: What On Earth Is Going On At The Vatican? -

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:24:01 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:22:30 -0500
Subject: Re: What On Earth Is Going On At The Vatican? -


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
><- UFO UpDates Subscribers ->
>Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:41:03 -0500
>Subject: What On Earth Is Going On At The Vatican?


>Images accompany the following article

>ebk

>-----

>Source: Free Press International

>http://www.freepressinternational.com/vatican.html


On a side note to this, it's fairly recently that the Vatican
added the term "Res Inexplicata Volans" to their "Lexicon
Recentis Latinitas", the Vatican's Latin lexicon. Of course it
means "Unidentified Flying Object".

tg





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                Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:02:19 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:24:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Pope


>From: Max Burns <max.burns@ntlworld.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 17:41:19 -0000
>Subject: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

>I am pleased to announce the release of the latest issue of Dr
>Larry O'Hara's magazine "Notes From The Borderland".

<snip>

>We proudly publish The Usual Suspects:Anatomy of a
>disinformation campaign in ufology, by veteran ufologist Max
>Burns. Max reveals the extreme depths some in ufology sank to in
>order to shut him up concerning the March 1997 Howden moor ufo.

>One usual suspect David Clarke - formerly of the Sheffield Star
>newspaper, already discredited for disgusting reporting of the
>1989 Hillborough tragedy and relentlessly targeting framed
>anarchist Mark Barnsley. Another is convicted drug
>supplier/armchair ufologist Andy Roberts

<snip>

Max,

Much as I've had my differences with Clarke and Roberts, you
have to be very sure of your ground before you describe somebody
as a convicted drug supplier.

On another UK list Andy Roberts has recently admitted to being a
longstanding user of psychedelic substances, and has expressed
the view that all drugs (including hard drugs) should be legal.
Is this what you're referring to?

If not, and if you stand by your description of Andy as a
convicted drug supplier, I hope you can back up your statement.
If you can't, I suggest you withdraw the remark.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope







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                   PRG/X-PPAC/X-Conference Update 11-12-03

From: Stephen G. Bassett <Disclosure2003@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:04:10 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:32:08 -0500
Subject: PRG/X-PPAC/X-Conference Update 11-12-03


PRG
Paradigm Research Group
Update - November 12, 2003

John Lear's "Scenario" on Art Bell

John Lear, the legendary researcher and aviator, appeared on the
November 2, 2003 Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell. At that time
he laid out what he believed to be the truth regarding the
extraterrestrial presence and asked Art if the public should be
told these facts.  Both Art and John agreed the answer was "no."

John presented the same scenario to Stephen Bassett during a
2-hour phone conversation the night before. His answer was "yes."

This scenario can be reviewed at:

www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2003/11/02.html#lear

Art Bell and his producer were contacted with a request that
Stephen Bassett be invited to come on Coast to Coast AM and
provide the alternative argument to John Lear's posed question.
As yet there has been no response.


The X-Conference

Nineteen of the 25 allotted speaker and panelist slots have been
filled and a half-dozen researchers are still under
consideration. Registrations and hotel bookings are being
received. Ads in a dozen publications in the Washington metro
area have been placed and will run for 26 consecutive weeks. 76
websites have generously agreed to place X-Conference banner
links on their sites and/or promote the X-Conference to their
mail lists. X-PPAC has sent a Congressional Alert to all House
and Senate Chiefs of Staff inviting their bosses and staffers to
attend. See: www.x-ppac.org  [X-PPAC Updates]

Conference information available at: www.x-conference.com


Time Magazine Internet Column by Leon Jaroff

Leon Jaroff writes The Skeptical Eye column for Time Magazine.
His Friday, November 7 piece is based on a Doubt and About
column by Chris Mooney in the Skeptical Inquirer taking Larry
King to task for addressing paranormal topics. These columns
can be reviewed at:

www.csicop.org/doubtandabout/larryking/

www.time.com/time/columnist/jaroff/article/0,9565,538305,00.html

The Skeptical Inquirer magazine is not particularly worthy of
attention or a response. Time Magazine is another matter. In the
Jaroff column, he wrote, "What apparently set Mooney off was a
show this summer that King claimed would explore =E2=C7othe
incredible events of fifty-six years ago at Roswell, New
Mexico.=E2=C7=D8 His guests included the same group of eccentrics,
publicity seekers and losers who for decades have been living
off the legend that a spacecraft crashed near Roswell, that
bodies of little aliens were found and spirited away by sinister
Federal agents and that the that Feds ever since have been
guilty of a monumental cover-up. [Jaroff's words]

Any researchers who resent being referred to as, "eccentrics,
publicity seekers and losers" in Time are invited to respond to
Mr. Jaroff at: letters@time.com  Put "To: Leon Jaroff" in the
subject line.


Sci Fi Channel-Coalition for Freedom of Information Press
Conference at the National Press Club

The Sci Fi-CFI press conference was held on October 21, 2003. It
was notable for several reasons. Once again John Podesta, former
top aide and chief of staff to President Clinton opened with
remarks targeting the need to get the truth to the American
people about the UFO/ET issue and other issues of importance. He
left before Q&A which continues the approach of maintaining a
careful balance between Podesta's involvement in this area and
his mainstream work which now includes the creation of a new
liberal think tank - the Center for American Progress.
[www.centerforamericanprogress.org/]

CFI discussed their efforts in pursuing documents regarding the
Kecksburg case. They indicated they had been getting the run-
around and intended to file lawsuits. Notably, within two days
NASA announced it would release documents which CFI had
repeatedly requested.

While Paradigm Research Group has some concerns about focusing
on specific cases such as Kecksburg, as opposed to supporting
the witness development across the board, CFI is to be applauded
for getting tough in their approach and staying the course.

There were reporters in attendance and the press conference was
picked up by Reuters.

Bonnie Hammer, president of the Sci Fi channel, indicated there
would be a forthcoming documentary on Kecksburg entitled The New
Roswell: Kecksberg Exposed, which will be hosted by Bryant
Gumbel. It aired on Sci Fi Channel on Friday, October 24 and
most certainly will be reaired.

The Sci Fi-CFI effort is beginning to get media attention. This
coverage is listed at:

www.freedomofinfo.org/campaign.html

____________________________________________________

Paradigm Research Group
URL: www.paradigmclock.com
E-mail: ParadigmRG@aol.com
Cell: 202-431-2459
4938 Hampden Lane, #161
Bethesda, MD 20814
_____________________________________________________

"There is almost no limit to what you can accomplish,
if you are willing to give away the credit."
_____________________________________________________

"Intellectual passion is found at the intersection
of fact and implication."







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                  Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 03:28:07 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:34:55 -0500
Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - McGonagle


>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:50:53 -0000
>Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme

<snip>

>The thing is, everyone human has a belief of some kind or
>another. I believe ET has arrived - sceptics believe that they
>have not - a belief on both parts. Although sceptics do seem to
>portray themselves as the intellectual types, always on a high
>horse, talking to mere uneducated mortals.

I regard myself as a sceptic, but I have no such belief (that ET
has not arrived). I simply don't know if they have or not, there
is not sufficient evidence either way. In the absence of
conclusive evidence that "ET has arrived", I do regard that
premise as unlikely, though I am fully prepared to modify that
view as the evidence becomes available. If you were truly
open-minded, you would accept this point of view as valid.


Regards,

Joe







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                NASA's Missing Crates Of Kecksburg Documents

From: Francis Knize <Frankknee@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:01:06 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:46:21 -0500
Subject: NASA's Missing Crates Of Kecksburg Documents


[Non-subscriber Post]

NASA's Missing Two Crates Of Kecksburg Documents

Dear Steven Bassett,

Upon examination of the released Kecksburg documents from NASA
(under pressure from the Sci-Fi Channel), it has been revealed
that a letter from NASA Headquarters written by the Records
Manager; Paul Willis in 1996 said two boxes of documents went
missing.

It also was revealed that there was an attempt to send copies,
in 1968, of the documents to other departments, but then the
section indicating this was crossed out. Being that the public
never got to see originals, there's no way of knowing if the
document was tampered with. A cover-up - if one is found to
exist - would extend to shielding the public from possible
sources of information which could prove positive a UFO event at
Kecksburg; i.e. these very documents.

Steven, I am curious why neither the Coalition for Freedom of
information (CFI) or your own press releases have not taken note
of the above facts? CFI has not even mentioned or shown links to
the NASA documents?

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/FOIA/Kecksberg-UFO.pdf

Strangely, it was skeptic - and possible agent for the
government for better or for worse - Jim Oberg who posted it at
Virtually Strange UFO Network UFO UpDates:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m01-003.shtml

There still exists a buffer between the actual papers and
something of a copy accessed through the Internet. With so
little to go on, Sci-fi Channel should follow these leads that
do exist. Maybe some of the missing material will show up at the
other sources? It states on the Standard Form 135; Records
Transmittal and Receipt on Jan 26, 1968:

"Send original and two copies to the Federal Records Center

Send original and two copies to Alexandra Virginia Center"

Let's see CFI do some follow-up? First of all how can there be
two originals?

Also more clues would be found by investigating this Record
Group NASA-255. We should be asking questions about what else in
this section is pertinent. Then there's Daniel Goggein who
signed off on the document. Is he still living? Does he remember
the contents of the missing crates? There are many clues in what
was revealed on Form 135, its not over until its over. Try this:

Who else worked for Goggein? Do any of his old department
(Accession and Disposal Branch) remember anything?

CFI and Sci-Fi Channel should hire somebody like me to go find
out these things and document on video.....

Very truly yours,

Francis (C. P. Knize Producer/Director)


-----

REFERENCE:

Re: Kecksburg/NASA Documents Posted - Oberg


From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:06:08 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 08:27:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Kecksburg/NASA Documents Posted - Oberg

>From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@presidency.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:14:51 -0500
>Subject: Kecksburg/NASA Documents Posted

>http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/FOIA/Kecksberg-UFO.pdf

>Presidents UFO Website

>www.presidentialufo.com


Showing that NASA was involved in identifying fallen satellite
fragments - 'fragology' they called it - to determine country of
origin, for returning said pieces per treaty requirements, and
that all such material was classified no higher than
'confidential', and that they knew so little about the Kecksburg
event (just what they saw in the media) they spelled it three or
four different ways, and that 'moon dust' to them meant mostly
gritty black stuff under the boots of the Apollo astronauts
(with one exception, a document citation).

Big yawn......

Jim Oberg

-----

http://www.freedomofinfo.org/campaign/channel-suing-over-documents.pdf

Subj: NASA and Kecksburg
Date: 11/2/2003 2:23:25 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: Frankknee
To: joberg@houston.rr.com

Jim,

Why don't you ask Steven Aftergood what the real meaning of the
NASA/Kecksburg document was really about, why his name was
included up front in conjunction to  FAS? Also, there are plenty
of clues to follow through those documents since the front page
of the form states copies were sent to other entities. The
question would be ...could any additional info be found at those
sources? After all, there were two boxes more that went missing
as said by the 1996 letter...maybe remnants still exist at these
other sources?

Instead of yawning, go do what a true investigator should be
doing... dig out the truth. Some say you are not really
interested in the truth...is it true?

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m01-003.shtml

Francis C. P. Knize
Producer

-----

In a message dated 11/3/2003 9:14:20 AM Eastern Standard Time
ianrid@macunlimited.net writes:

Subj: NASA and Kecksburg
Date: 11/3/2003 9:14:20 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:
To: Frankknee@aol.com

Sent from the Internet

Dear Mr Knize,

I write as a journalist who has kept an eye on UFO research for
many years and whose interest has been piqued by the recent
release of NASA files relating to the Kecksburg incident. First
of all, may I say that I am fully in favor of release of all
UFO-related documents by all government agencies and applaud
your success in regard to this case.

I note that you have recently claimed (and I quote) "the front
page of the form states copies were sent to other entities." By
"the form" I presume you mean the Records Transmittal and
Receipt Form on which the NASA Fragology Files are listed and
which makes up the second page of the released documents.

Maybe I am missing something here but the front page of the form
I have in PDF format makes no mention of sending copies to other
entities. There is a reference at top left to sending "original
and two copies [of the form] to appropriate Federal Records
Center" but, by my reading, that simply means the same address
to which the top copy was sent - and this instruction has in any
case been crossed out. Can you point me to the indication that
additional copies were sent to additional "entities", as you
call them, and if so which ones?

With reference to your question as to why the name of Steven
Aftergood and the FAS was included "up front," my reading of the
documents is that his name was simply the first alphabetically
in a list of references to papers on space debris, none of which
seem to have anything to do with Kecksburg. But again, maybe you
are privy to some meaning here which I am missing. I would
welcome if you could clarify.

May I encourage you to continue to "dig out the truth" about
UFOs. Maybe you can also find additional documents relating to
the Rendlesham Forest case, a particular interest of mine which
involved the USAF.

All the best,

Ian Ridpath

-----

Subj: Re: NASA and Kecksburg2
Date: 11/5/2003 4:15:41 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Frankknee
To: ianrid@macunlimited.net
Right-click picture(s) to display picture optionsI
[]

Ian,

I'm curious how you came into possession of my e-mail to  Jim
Oberg? I just did a google on your name, and my God! You are
prolific. It's an honor to hear from you!

I don't trust that X in the box above..somebody should check
those other sources?

But the missing two boxes... that's something else... sure....
missing.....

Have you met Larry Warren yet? He was at the disclosure project
May 9th where I videotaped... Rendlesham Forest case.....

You can find out more about me by researching these links:

Radio Free Mars - Francis Knize - March 18th, 2003
OMB Watch

http://www.nothingbuttime2k.com/Mars_Image.html


Slap In The Face - More Mars Controversy

Pravda.RU: UFO Politics 102: An Update
MARS - CYDONIA - VIKING & SURVEYOR PHOTOS AND OPINIONS
NASA Challenged On Data Integrity


Hope to hear more from you Ian....

Francis

-----

Subj: Re: NASA and Kecksburg
Date: 11/6/2003 8:29:34 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: ianrid@macunlimited.net
To: Frankknee@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Dear Francis,

Jim O circulates copies of his correspondence to interested
parties from time to time, as many of us do in the interests of
further debate, so that's how I came to see what you had
written.

1.  You say you don't trust the X in the box at top left of the
form that accompanied the NASA Fragology Files. OK. Let's assume
the crossing-out of the wording is irrelevant and that the
senders followed its instructions. What it says is to "send
original and two copies to appropriate Federal Records Center,"
which in this case appears to have been the center in Suitland
Road, Washington, D.C. To me, this means simply that 3 copies of
the form (not the records) should have been sent to the one
address, not to three separate addresses. Government departments
love forms in triplicate, as you know.

I conclude from the evidence of the form that only one set of
Fragology Files was sent from NASA, and it went to the Records
Center in Suitland Road only. Hence, by my reading, there are no
"other sources" to check. If you can find otherwise, please let
me (and everyone else) know.

I cannot see anything in the list of contents of the now-missing
Fragology Files that might refer to Kecksburg. If you can, I'd
be pleased to know which entry you think it is.

2.  In the documents released by NASA, Steven Aftergood's paper
is the first in a long list of references that appears under the
general heading "Space Debris which re-entered the Earth's
atmosphere." Aftergood's paper was titled "Space nuclear power
and the UN - A growing fiasco" and it appeared in the February
1992 issue of the journal Space Policy published in the UK. I
can see no connection with Kecksburg. Can you?

Larry Warren - ah, now there's a controversial character... Col
Halt certainly has no time for him.

I recognize that you must receive a lot of unwanted
correspondence on the subject of UFOs so I am grateful to you
for taking the time to read my emails.


All the best (and in the interests of truth),

Ian R








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                     West Central Minnesota Oval Object

From: Brian Vike - HBCCUFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:48:13 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:52:56 -0500
Subject: West Central Minnesota Oval Object


I have been receiving a number of reports and pictures of some
strange objects from around the same area from which this photo:

http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/minnesotaoval.html

comes. Although this is a short report, the picture is of
interest.

I've also heard of a few other reports coming in from the
same area.

I found out tonight that a rash of sightings were reported in
Eastern Canada and in the United States for the same date and
at roughly the same time.

---

West Central Minnesota

Date: Saturday, November 8, 2003
Time: 5:30 p.m.

Object was oval in shape. Coming from the east and horizontal.
As it gets very close it turns to a vertical position and emits
a red glow. Remains 'sideways' for a few seconds then simply
blinks off. Just disappeared. The moon was rising to the
southeast of vantage point, air was surreal and it was quiet. No
other remarks.

---

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm







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                    Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:47:35 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:02:40 -0500
Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - Hale


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 03:28:07 -0000
>Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme

<snip>

>I regard myself as a sceptic, but I have no such belief (that ET
>has not arrived). I simply don't know if they have or not, there
>is not sufficient evidence either way. In the absence of
>conclusive evidence that "ET has arrived", I do regard that
>premise as unlikely, though I am fully prepared to modify that
>view as the evidence becomes available. If you were truly
>open-minded, you would accept this point of view as valid.

Hi,

So are you a believable sceptic?

"In the absence of conclusive evidence that 'ET has arrived'".

Absence of evidence? Tell me, what more evidence does one
require? Please not the White House Lawn answer.

>If you were truly open-minded, you would accept this point of
>view as valid.

Did I say in my mail that I had a closed mind? Perhaps you
jumped the gun slightly, pre-thinking my assumptions on all UFO
cases I come across?

Is your point truly valid? All you have told me, is that you
have considered thousands , and thousands, and thousands, and
thousands, and thousands of UFO sightings, and pilot
testimonies, and government testimonies, and public testimonies,
and astronomer testimonies, and every kind of human walking on
this planet testimonies, video evidence, photo evidence, radar
evidence, audio capture evidence, medical evidence still has not
convinced you of ET, now who is not being open minded, me or
you?


Roy







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              Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:08:14 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 07:27:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Roberts


>From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:02:19 -0000
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

Pilgrims,

Nick wrote - rather cleverly I thought, for him.

>Much as I've had my differences with Clarke and Roberts, you
>have to be very sure of your ground before you describe somebody
>as a convicted drug supplier.

>On another UK list Andy Roberts has recently admitted to being a
>longstanding user of psychedelic substances, and has expressed
>the view that all drugs (including hard drugs) should be legal.
>Is this what you're referring to?

>If not, and if you stand by your description of Andy as a
>convicted drug supplier, I hope you can back up your statement.
>If you can't, I suggest you withdraw the remark.

Yes, I'm a convicted drug dealer. If you want specifics it was
approximately September 1976 and the substance was Amphetamine
Sulphate (a crap drug I have to say, but I bought some and sold
it on). That was 27 years ago, before many on this List were
even born. I'm not ashamed or embarrased by it, nor has it ever
been a secret. I have always, and will always, continue to use
psychedelics.

Now, what of it?


Happy Trails

Andy








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               Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:36:58 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 07:29:59 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 07:19:32 -0600
>Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:22:04 -0800
>>Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>>Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:04:14 -0600
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

>>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>>Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 09:56:11 -0800
>>>>Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

>>>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>>>>Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:18:05 -0600
>>>>>Subject: Re: UFO's Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

>>>>>Alright Mr. Warren! Another pretending and uninformed proto-
>>>>>dilettante smoked like a cheap cigar! Good Show!

>>>>Thank you! As I mentioned to a good friend and colleague, it's
>>>>very difficult to maintain diplomacy when responding to writings
>>>>such as that of Mr. Pfisterer, however; I do try to give the
>>>>benefit of the doubt, and inform, rather then scold, as his
>>>>ignorance on the subject was blatantly obvious.

>>>The sentiment is wonderful, sir, but it's clear you gave
>>>better than you got.

>>Tis the story of my life. :^)

>If you _do_ say so yourself! <LOL>

>>>A few more like you and the Committee for the Seriously
>>>Insentient Commitment of Obdurate Persons will have to work a
>>>lot harder to keep their befuddled numbers up! <LOL>

>>I'm afraid the membership of the CSICOP is quite large, in fact;
>>some aren't even aware of their initiation, but that attribute
>>is looked upon with admiration within the order. :^))

>Now this is simply startling! And you wrote that like you knew
>for sure! Who are some of these so *honored* so that we may
>trumpet them from our thatched rooftops, and herald the *honor*
>that has been so imposed (...let them know!)?


Mr. Lehmberg, & All,

Regarding the acronym, CSICOP, as you presented it, i.e.,
"Committee for the Seriously Insentient Commitment of Obdurate
Persons"; no good would come from trumpeting the names of those
that hold rank within the order, for so many are "unaware of
their position." Moreover, methinks there would be nothing but
stentorious denial. (The initials GWB do come to mind though).
:^)

Beware of those who have stopped asking questions.....


Cheers,

Frank Warren









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                             Consensus Blindness

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:25:55 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:22:00 -0500
Subject: Consensus Blindness


Excerpt from a Robert Temple essay

Complete article at:

http://www.para-normal.com/nuke/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1957

-----

Forgotten Technology: Modern Lenses in Ancient Times

...The earliest actual lenses which I have located are crystal
ones dating from the 4th Dynasty of Old Kingdom Egypt, circa
2500 BC. These are to be found in the Cairo Museum and two are
in the Louvre in Paris. But archaeological evidence showing that
they must have been around at least 700 years earlier has
recently been excavated at Abydos in Upper Egypt. A tomb of a
Pre-Dynastic king there has yielded an ivory knife handle
bearing a microscopic carving which could only have been done
under considerable magnification (and of course can only be seen
with a strong magnifying glass today). Thus, we know that
magnification technology was in use in Egypt in 3300 BC.

But magnification technology was not of interest merely for
making and viewing small carvings. Its most important use was in
telescopes.

If there is all this evidence, why has no one ever talked about
it before? The answer seems to be that unique capacity for
stupidity which so distinguishes the human race, for obstinacy
and the determination not to see. I call it consensus blindness.
Everybody agrees not to look at things that make them
uncomfortable, or which they think shouldn't exist. Therefore,
the fact that more than 450 ancient lenses have been sitting
around in the world's museums for all of these years and have
been invisible is explicable only by invoking the theory that
people subconsciously conspire not to see what they don't want
to see......

-----

Ed







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                  Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:03:59 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:25:34 -0500
Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme - McGonagle


>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto<ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:47:35 -0000
>Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme

>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 03:28:07 -0000
>>Subject: Re: BBC Radio 4 UFO Programme

<snip>

>So are you a believable sceptic?

That would depend on whether you believe me or not..... Ergo Sum.

>"In the absence of conclusive evidence that 'ET has arrived'".

>Absence of evidence? Tell me, what more evidence does one
>require? Please not the White House Lawn answer.

>>If you were truly open-minded, you would accept this point of
>>view as valid.

>Did I say in my mail that I had a closed mind? Perhaps you
>jumped the gun slightly, pre-thinking my assumptions on all UFO
>cases I come across?

<snip>

It's quite simple really, Roy - You have excluded a multitude of
other possible solutions in your belief that UFOs are of
extraterrestrial origin. I mean the really unexplained and
thoroughly investigated ones, not just stories that you read in
FSR/UFO magazine/Junior Sc-fi weekly - how many does that amount
to?  How can you be positive for instance that they do not
represent time travellers from our own planet? Beings occupying
the same space as us, but in different planes (of existence, not
aircraft!)? What conclusive evidence is there that they are of
Extraterrestrial origin? Zilch.

Yes, people observe strange things, they experience strange
things, but I don't pretend to know what these strange things
are when there is nothing of substance to base that knowledge
on.

Either you are going to expand the meaning of ET to include
exotic terrestrial (ET2?) origin, or else you will have to
concede that you are not as open-minded as you would have us all
believe. Are you believable believer?


Regards,

Joe







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                 Re: NASA's Missing Two Crates Of Kecksburg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:49:17 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:04:39 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA's Missing Two Crates Of Kecksburg


>From: Francis Knize <Frankknee@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:01:06 EST
>Subject: NASA's Missing Two Of Kecksburg Documents

>[Non-subscriber Post]

>NASA's Missing Two Crates Of Kecksburg Documents

>Dear Steven Bassett,

>Upon examination of the released Kecksburg documents from NASA
>(under pressure from the Sci-Fi Channel), it has been revealed
>that a letter from NASA Headquarters written by the Records
>Manager; Paul Willis in 1996 said two boxes of documents went
>missing.

<snip>

>"Strangely, it was skeptic - and possible agent for the
>government for better or for worse - Jim Oberg who posted it at
>Virtually Strange UFO Network UFO UpDates"

<snip>

Wow (chuckle) - gummint agents are the enemy - the last refuge
of the charlatan and crackpot. Thanks for painting yourself so
unambiguosly.

If there was a coverup, the best way to keep it from proof would
be to muddy up the waters with ravings like this to discredit
investigations. Since the same note asks for money, maybe
comments like this - helpful to the coverup - are bought and
paid for by the coverupers? Naw... simple silliness is a more
likely explanation.


jim O
www.jamesoberg.com







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                   Re: Secrecy News - 11/12/03 - Aftergood

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:17:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:28:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Secrecy News - 11/12/03 - Aftergood


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 100
November 12, 2003


**      TOWARDS NEW NUCLEAR WEAPONS
**      TAKING A LOOK AT NORTHCOM
**      BACKGROUND ON SPECIAL OPERATIONS
**      IN PURSUIT OF INTELLIGENCE AGILITY
**      NEW FBI INVESTIGATIVE GUIDELINES


TOWARDS NEW NUCLEAR WEAPONS

The 2004 Defense Authorization Act, approved in a House-Senate
conference, includes several provisions that could lead to
development of new U.S. nuclear weapons.

The Act repeals a statutory ban on research and development of
low-yield nuclear weapons, authorizes continued research on the
"robust nuclear earth penetrator," and requires the Department
of Energy to achieve and maintain the ability to conduct an
underground nuclear explosive test within 18 months.

(Actual production, testing and deployment of a new nuclear
weapon would require further congressional authorization,
however.)

Collectively, these steps "will greatly improve our ability to
deter a possible nuclear attack," said Senator Wayne Allard (R-
CO) on November 11.

Not so, said Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI).  The new moves are
"inconsistent with our longstanding commitment under the Nuclear
Nonproliferation Treaty, and undermine our argument to other
countries around the world that they should not develop or test
nuclear weapons," he said.

A painstakingly impartial account of the issues raised by the
new U.S. nuclear programs is presented by the Congressional
Research Service in "Nuclear Weapons Initiatives: Low-Yield R&D,
Advanced Concepts, Earth Penetrators, Test Readiness," 68 pages,
October 28, 2003:

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/crs/RL32130.pdf


TAKING A LOOK AT NORTHCOM

U.S. Northern Command (NORTHCOM) is the new U.S. military combat
command at Peterson Air Force Base in Colorado that is
responsible for the military aspects of "homeland security."
 But there is more to it than that.

NORTHCOM has several distinct missions, including
counterterrorism, counterintelligence, critical infrastructure
protection and the protection of military bases and forces
inside the United States, as Jim McGee parsed the matter in a
series of groundbreaking articles he wrote on NORTHCOM in
Congressional Quarterly Homeland Security.

"With almost no public attention or debate, the Pentagon is
building an intelligence operation in Colorado that will link
together U.S. spy agencies and federal, state and local police
forces," McGee wrote in CQ Homeland Security on October 22.

This is not intrinsically surprising.

"In order to defend the U.S. from attack, NORTHCOM has a strong
rationale for access to information collected by various
intelligence and law enforcement agencies," according to a
recent Congressional Research Service report.

"However, at a certain point, such access could create the
perception - or the reality - that the military is spying on
U.S. citizens," CRS said.

"What type of access should NORTHCOM be given to various types
of sensitive data?  What types of safeguards need to be
established to ensure that this data is used properly?" CRS
asked rhetorically.

For more on NORTHCOM, see "Homeland Security: Establishment and
Implementation of Northern Command," Congressional Research
Service, May 14, 2003:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RS21322.pdf


BACKGROUND ON SPECIAL OPERATIONS

Funding for special operations forces - elite military units with
specialized training that undertake particularly challenging, often
classified missions - has escalated rapidly in recent years.

Oversight and accountability have arguably not kept pace.  When the
Central Intelligence Agency undertakes a covert action, it must be
justified by a presidential finding, which must be provided to
Congress.  It is not clear that any comparable procedure exists for
keeping tabs on special forces when they undertake analogous
clandestine missions.

A helpful introduction to the subject is "U.S. Special Operations
Forces (SOF):  Background and Issues for Congress," Congressional
Research Service, August 15, 2003:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RS21048.pdf


IN PURSUIT OF INTELLIGENCE AGILITY

At the root of the momentous failure of U.S. intelligence is a
lack of organizational agility, argues Bruce Berkowitz in a new
paper, referring to an inability to quickly come to grips with
new threats and challenges.

"Those critics who were looking for a 'smoking gun' - a key
piece of intelligence that would have tipped off officials to
the September 11 plot - are missing the bigger picture. The
failure wasn't committed by our dedicated, motivated analysts
and case officers. The problem is that these people were locked
into an organization that is too slow, too inflexible, and too
stuck in its ways to deal with today's threats."

In a characteristically thoughtful essay, Berkowitz specifies
the features of an "agile" intelligence organization.  (He might
have noted, though he didn't, the desirability of an information
policy that does not impose unnecessary obstacles to the
dissemination of intelligence information inside and outside of
government.)   And he proposes benchmarks by which improvement
could be measured.

See "Spying in the Post-September 11 World" by Bruce Berkowitz
in the Hoover Digest, published by Stanford University's Hoover
Institution, Fall 2003:

http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/034/berkowitz.html


NEW FBI INVESTIGATIVE GUIDELINES

The Justice Department has issued new guidelines for FBI
national security investigations and intelligence collection
activities.

The new guidelines generally authorize "the proactive collection
of information concerning threats to the national security,
including information on individuals, groups, and organizations
of possible investigative interest."

The good news is that the new guidelines are fully compliant with
the law.  The bad news is that the law is the USA Patriot Act!

A redacted version of the new guidelines was released by the
Department of Justice, and first reported by the Washington Post
on November 5.

A Justice Department fact sheet on the new guidelines, with
links to the redacted version and to the previous version that
has now been superceded, is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fbi/nsi-fact.html


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a blank email message to
secrecy_news-remove@lists.fas.org

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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               Re: West Central Minnesota Oval Object - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:38:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:29:36 -0500
Subject: Re: West Central Minnesota Oval Object - Velez


>From: Brian Vike - HBCCUFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:48:13 -0800
>Subject: West Central Minnesota Oval Object

>I have been receiving a number of reports and pictures of some
>strange objects from around the same area from which this photo:

>http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/minnesotaoval.html

>comes. Although this is a short report, the picture is of
>interest.

>I've also heard of a few other reports coming in from the
>same area.

>I found out tonight that a rash of sightings were reported in
>Eastern Canada and in the United States for the same date and
>at roughly the same time.

>---

>West Central Minnesota

>Date: Saturday, November 8, 2003
>Time: 5:30 p.m.

>Object was oval in shape. Coming from the east and horizontal.
>As it gets very close it turns to a vertical position and emits
>a red glow. Remains 'sideways' for a few seconds then simply
>blinks off. Just disappeared. The moon was rising to the
>southeast of vantage point, air was surreal and it was quiet. No
>other remarks.
>Brian Vike

Hi Brian,

I think somebody is trying to put one over on you. I have been
an amateur astronomer for over 30 years. I've taken lots of
'unsuccessful' photos of the moon and a couple of nice ones.
I've seen enough snaps of the moon to know one when I see one.

The photo displayed at the URL above is a _multiple_ exposure of
the moon taken through a long focal length lens (800 mm or
thereabouts) judging from the moon's image size on the film.
There is evidence that whoever snapped the photos did not use a
cable release to dampen shutter/equipment vibration nor did
he/she employ any kind of sidereal clock drive to track the
Moon.

Pay close attention to the spherical shape at the top and bottom
of the image. It looks like; one exposure of the moon...
followed by second one resulting in a smeared/elongated mid-
section due to motion. (Up and down) which is consistent with
the kind of smear caused by pressing the shutter button by hand
-and not using a cable release or the black card technique to
help eliminate sources of vibration. Then it looks like a final
exposure of the Moon is made and added to the others without
ever having advanced the film at any time.

Three minimum and possibly four exposures of the moon in a
single frame as it rises into the night sky. Multiple exposures
of the Moon says I. Does anybody else concur? Anybody else out
there ever 'shoot the moon?' <g>

Regards,

John Velez








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                          Filer's Files #46 -- 2003

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:40:07 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:19:54 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #46 -- 2003


Filer's Files #46 -- 2003 Skywatch Investigations.
George A. Filer,  Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
November 12,  2003, Webmaster: Chuck Warren
My website is at:  www.georgefiler.com/
Majorstar @ aol.com  Sponsored by: OPC-3

Transient Lunar Phenomenon Reported

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. This week's files investigate a series of
Orbiting Astronaut Sees Mystery Lights, Biggest Solar X-ray
Flare Classified As X28, NORAD - Investigates Vapor Trail
Reports, and the Leonid Meteor Showers Are Coming.

UFO reports:  Maine - Cylinder UFO Seen Near Base, Vermont -
Silver Metallic Disk, Massachusetts - Unknown Objects During
Lunar Eclipse, New Jersey - Transient Lunar Phenomenon Seen
During Lunar Eclipse, Pennsylvania - Huge Flying Triangle,
Rhode Island - Large Hovering Flying Triangle on Halloween,
Virginia - Cigar With Two Lights, North Carolina - Triangle
Shaped Object With 3 Round Lights,  Georgia - Hovering Tarnished
Bronze Sphere, Florida - Black Cloud Vortex Appears and Witness
Loses Ten Minutes, Mississippi - It Was a Disk Larger Than Our
House,  Indiana - Bright Orange Light, Illinois - Green UFO
Spotted, Missouri - Flying Triangle Sightings Continue, Kansas -
 I Was Driving And Saw A Silver Disc, Arizona - Several Bright
Triangular Objects, California - Video Of UFO Shot by R. David
Anderson, Washington - Saucer Plus Strange Black Cloud, Canada
- Large Craft And Disk Seen On Halloween Venezuela - More UFOs
Sighted, Greece - The Light Was Too Fast For A Plane,  India -
 UFOs Sighted In Valley, and South Korea - Disk Found Among
Photos. Significantly less UFO sightings in October (367) than
September (426) or August (454) possibly due to solar flares.
 Thanks to Peter Davenport Director UFOcenter.

Transient Lunar Phenomenon

During the last week a series of moving lights, smoke trials,
and strange objects have been seen on our Moon. This is not a
new phenomenon. In 1869, after a series of bright points of
light in geometric patterns had  been seen, the Royal
Astronomical Society assigned to scores of  astronomers the task
of observing and recording this amazing phenomenon. In a two-
year period, they recorded more than a hundred  such light
patterns, rectangles, straight lines, triangles - many of them
around Mare Crisium.

Our moon is the only moon in the solar system that has a
stationary, virtually perfect circular orbit. The moon's
center of mass is about 6000 feet closer to the Earth than its
geometric center which should cause wobbling. However, the
moon's bulge is on the far side of the moon, where many
strange structures have been spotted.  Someone or something" had
to put the moon in orbit with its precise altitude, course, and
speed. How do we explain the "coincidence" that the moon is the
right diameter and the right distance to completely cover the
sun during an eclipse?  There is no astronomical reason why the
moon and the sun should fit so well unless of course it was
placed in its position according to plan. Only our Moon among
all the moons in the Solar System is set apart in this way.


Orbiting Astronaut Sees Mystery Lights

October 30, 2003 The Guardian   Astronaut Ed Lu returned on
Monday from a six-month tour as science officer on the
international space station with loads of memories and at least
one nagging puzzle: what caused the mysterious flashes of light
he saw while studying the Earth's aurora from orbit?  Lu, who
was a research astrophysicist before becoming an astronaut in
1994, estimates that he spent 100 hours watching the northern
and southern lights during half a year in space. The aurora
light show, which takes place well below the station's 380 km
altitude, shimmers and pulses depending on natural variations in
incoming solar particles trapped by the Earth's magnetic field.

On three occasions - July 11, September 24 and October 12 - Lu
saw something markedly different: flashes as bright as the
brightest stars, which lasted only a second then blinked off
again. In one instance, he called crewmate Yuri Malenchenko over
to the window to see the bursts. Lu says they appeared very
different from the random but harmless retinal flashes that many
astronauts experience when heavy cosmic rays hit their eyeballs.
The flashes weren't like sun glint from dust particles outside
the station, which rotate and last longer than a second. Nor
were they meteors, which look like linear streaks. Viewing
conditions were wrong for a satellite or other artificial
object. They only appeared in the direction of the aurora. And
Lu checked weather maps, which showed no lightning storms below
at the time of his observations. All of which leads him to the
tentative conclusion that he saw some previously unreported
phenomenon associated with the aurora.
http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/research/story/0,9865,107
3527,00.html

Biggest Solar X-ray Flare Classified As X28

The massive solar X-ray flare which occurred on 4 November was,
at best estimate, an X28. There is still a small chance this
will be revised by a small amount, but it is now official: We
have a new number 1 X-ray flare for the record books, the most
powerful in recorded observational history. There has never been
a time with so much activity on the sun.  There is speculation
that meteors are striking the sun because sunspots suddenly
developed at area 486 exploding into massive solar flares.
Thanks to David Kingston
http://www.esa.int/export/esaSC/SEMNFTWLDMD_index_0.html

NORAD - Investigates Vapor Trail

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado (CNN) -- Fighter jets scrambled in an
unsuccessful attempt to investigate a contrail of unknown origin
first seen over the Caribbean and later reported over the
Midwestern United States, the Department of Defense said
Thursday. The North American Aerospace Defense Command scrambled
the jets soon after unverified reports were received around 4
p.m. Wednesday, November 5, 2003, that the contrail, seen near
the Turks and Caicos Islands, was headed northwest toward the
US, said Lt. Commander Curtis Jenkins, a spokesman for NORAD.  A
contrail is a white trail of condensed water vapor that
sometimes forms in the wake of an aircraft. The jets were
scrambled from more than one base and more than one location.

Commercial airline pilots later reported the contrail over
Florida and then over Indiana, he said. The jets attempted to
intercept and identify the source of the contrail, but no visual
or confirmed radar contact was made, he added. "I don't know
that anybody was predisposed to think it might be something or
the other," he said. "We don't even know that it was a thing. It
was just simply reports of contrails. We don't even know that it
was the same one. We had reports from different places and NORAD
did its job and tried to find out."

Leonid Meteor Showers

The morning of November 13, and 19 there will be two periods of
possible good meteor falls. The first date is during the
daylight, but there will be possible fireballs at 12:25 AM- and
peaking of meteors at 2:28 AM on the 19th. Thanks to Tom Sheets


Maine -- Cylinder UFO Seen Near Base

NAVAL BASE KITTERY - The witness saw a set of five white lights,
with very bright beams on November 6, 2003, at 9:09 PM, a mile
from the Navy base. The beams were at a 34 to 45 degree angle
and hovered through the cloud cover. The witness states, =E2=C7oI
watched it come closer through the clouds for about five minutes
when part of the object broke through the cloud cover exposing
two of its five lights. There was a crescent or cylinder shape
behind the lights that was darker in appearance than the sky. It
hovered for minutes, slowly retreating into the cloud cover. I
watched the five lights for ten more minutes. The width of each
light was twice as large as any airplane I've ever seen. Finally
I watched the lights disappear, remaining in circular shapes and
all moving simultaneously until completely disappearing from
sight. Thanks to Peter Davenport


Vermont - Silver Metallic Disk

BURLINGTON -- On November 5, 2003 at 12:20 PM, the Father was
called outside by his 12-year old son who was pointing up in the
sky "What is it?" My wife who was in our yard with our dog was
looking up in the sky, too, said "It's a UFO". First I thought
they were joking until I looked up and to my amazement saw a
flying silver metallic disk navigating in and out of the clouds,
it was turning upside down then right side up. I said "that's a
flying saucer." We had a visual on it for no longer than 1
minute at which time it disappeared in the clouds headed east
over Colchester. Too bad I didn't have enough time to get my
camcorder. Thanks to Peter Davenport


Massachusetts - Unknown Objects During Lunar Eclipse

West Chatham - Two observers were watching the lunar eclipse on
November 8, 2003.  One is a 63 year old floor covering salesman
who noticed four white to "reddish" lights move into the area of
the sky close to the eclipsed moon at 8:50 PM. The lights would
move quickly then stop, then move quickly again. They were
generally together but obviously moved independently of one
another. One light then moved quickly in a northerly direction
while the other three moved quickly in a southerly direction and
out of sight. The entire episode lasted about 30 seconds. The
lights were not pinpoints, but rather had some small area to
their origin. It was clear and cold at the time of the sighting.
Thanks to UFO Casebook on-line reporting Ufocasebook@aol.com

Rhode Island - Large Hovering Flying Triangle On Halloween

WAKEFIELD -- At 10 PM, two witnesses were driving on Route 1
south on October 31, 2003, when they noticed a large object with
four large white circle lights kind of hovering over them.  They
both saw lights and about five seconds later, the four white
lights went off and one of them turned green. All the lights
disappeared and then the four white lights came on again. At
first, it looked like a rectangle from the side, but when it
started moving at a very fast rate, it looked like a triangle.
It started to go over some trees then just completely
disappeared. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

New Jersey - Transient Lunar Phenomenon

SICKLERVILLE - The witness who just completed his grad diploma
in astronomy reports photographing an object moving across the
Moon on November 9, 2003, during the Lunar Eclipse using his
Sony digital camera. I happened to notice that in the series of
photos, I had captured a small red star-like dot which first
appears on the lunar horizon, and then moved several degrees
across the face of the moon and slightly north. A blow up of the
object from several shots reveals the same structure.  Something
like two red donuts stuck together. I suppose some people may
say its an artifact caused by the camera, but I doubt an
artifact would look like donuts. I  should add, I am somewhat
familiar with the subject of Transient Lunar Phenomenon. Thanks
to WUFOD and Bruce Cornet

Delaware - Pictures Of Unknowns During Eclipse

GUMBORO - The photographer reports, =E2=C7oI captured a series of
images on digital camera-which I could not see with my naked
eye-but it looked like a pattern of lights in the camera." I
have clear pictures of these objects and lights. The pictures
were taken looking at the eclipse. While trying to capture an
image on my digital, I noticed a pattern of flashing lights in
my display mode, so I snapped a few shots and downloaded them to
my computer for a closer look by zooming in. Thanks to B J Booth
UFO Casebook  UFOcasebook

Pennsylvania - Huge Flying Triangle

DUNMORE -- Frank Scassellati, reports, =E2=C7oI sighted a huge
triangular-shaped UFO on November 3, 2003, with fianc=C3=A9." It
was 6:30 PM, and we were traveling to a local Sunoco gas
Station. We were near the Dunmore Cemetery, when we noticed a
huge, triangular-shaped UFO in the evening's sky. It was black,
or dark in color, with three huge, glowing lights on each edge
of the triangle. The object was approximately 500 feet in
length, and about 300 feet above the ground. The object did not
move. It remained motionless in the clear sky.  My fianc=C3=A9 also
saw the UFO and we gazed in amazement at this wondrous vehicle.
My fiance exclaimed, "What's that? It doesn't look like an
airplane. It's not moving. Maybe it's a UFO?"  I agreed with
her. I believed it to be a UFO. As we entered the Sunoco gas
station, I rolled down my window and put my head outside to get
a better view, but the UFO. had vanished, it was nowhere to be
seen. Thanks to: Frank Scassellati and  UFO Wisconsin.com/

Virginia - Cigar With Two Lights

STAUNTON - The observer noticed an object in sky southwest of
Staunton, at about 11 PM on October 26, 2003.  He watched for
over an hour as the object moved in every direction in short
bursts, but stayed in the same general area. The observer
states, =E2=C7oIt looked like two long slender lights parallel to
the ground, like this - -.  The object was quicker and more
agile in the air than I can explain. It would take off real
quick in a straight line, then seem to turn 90 degrees, then up
and down and left and right. There were no blinking lights on
the craft.  I don't know what this thing was, but it was pulling
off maneuvers that I think are beyond human technology at this
time.  I viewed the object in sky until I fell asleep around
12:30 AM." Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

North Carolina - Triangle Shaped Object With 3 Round Lights

CHARLOTTE - The viewer was star gazing around 9 PM on the back
deck of my home on November 3, 2003. I looked straight up and
saw 3 round lights moving in unison from the West to the East
horizon. The circles of gray light were located at each end of
the triangle shape, and I estimate this triangle was about 100
feet across. I looked away from the lights several times to make
sure I was really seeing what I saw. I was able to locate this
moving object over and over again. It took about 30 seconds for
this object to move to the Eastern horizon. This was no
illusion! I went to bed and dreamed of UFO's darting in and out
of the clouds and across the sky. These UFO's in my dream were
both triangle shaped and rod shaped. Thanks to Peter Davenport
UFOcenter

Georgia - Hovering Tarnished Bronze Sphere

ALPHARETTA - The observer was traveling on the Old Alabama
Connector Road on October 29, 2003. I was stopped at that
intersection and was looking over the North Point Mall at 5:45
PM, and saw a cell tower to the left and a radio tower just
north of it. I noticed what I thought was a globe on one of the
guide wires, similar to the globes that are sometimes placed on
high tension wires to prevent them from touching each other
during high wind conditions. I paused because this seemed
unusual, but the light changed and I had to continue driving.
Later I realized that the size was completely off, and that the
sphere was actually about three times the width of the radio
tower. The tarnished bronze or brown sphere was about half way
up the tower. I went back later to verify that my perception was
correct but the sphere was no longer there. I am certain that
the sphere was not a tethered balloon of some type. Thanks to
Peter Davenport UFOcenter

 Florida - Black Cloud Vortex and Witness Loses Ten Minutes

MILTON -- On Friday, the eyewitness was driving to Pensacola to
visit my parents on October 31, 2003, at 3:15 PM, when he saw a
strange black cloud in the beautiful sunshiny sky. The witness
states, =E2=C7oThe cloud seemed to be moving like a vortex and I
could not take my eyes off of it, so the next thing I remember
is crossing the bridge on the interstate going into
Pensacola...I lost TEN minutes." I do not even remember
driving those ten minutes. My daughter was with me, but she was
asleep during all of this. Could this be an abduction?  Thanks
to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

 Mississippi - It Was A Round Disk Larger Than Our House

PASS CHRISTIAN - On November 5, 2003, at 5 PM, a couple observed
a strange disk in the sky that had bright lights on the bottom
so they decided to follow. The object continued to move easterly
directly along side of the interstate for several miles, so they
followed speeding along the highway at 85 mph, as darkness began
to fall.

I would never have believed what I saw, but I saw it and now I
think other people should know. I am just an every day Joe, so
these things really are out there. What they are or where they
come from who knows. I am just an everyday mom and go to work at
city hall. North of the interstate I noticed a line of flashing
red lights all in a row too close to be planes or helicopters
but as I got closer I starting yelling to my husband in the
passengers seat, do you see that? What is it? He said I can't
believe it speeds up, let's follow it so I continued north but
the object remained still directly above the tree line right
below the clouds almost hovering. I would say. I stopped the car
and we got out. The object seemed close enough to touch but it
was still atop the trees where it remained.  It was bigger than
a house and it seemed as if it were spinning but it wasn't
moving it. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter


INDIANA - Bright Orange Light

MICHIGAN CITY -- My sister, niece, nephew and I were coming home
from the Humane Society on October 30, 2003, and talking about
the solar flare that had just occurred when my 11-year-old niece
said, "What's that orange thing?" The other three of us looked
straight ahead to the horizon at 4:45 PM, (the object looked to
be in the midst of some wispy clouds in a southwest direction.)
I automatically said "It's one of those planes that leave
streaks in the sky" until I realized it wasn't moving at all, it
was just a bright orange oval shape hovering in the sky. We
stopped the car to get a better look, but then continued down
the road to the house. My niece and I grabbed the binoculars and
hopped on our bikes, but once we got back down the road where
there were no trees obstructing our view, the object was totally
gone. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Illinois - Green UFO Spotted

O'FALLON -- I am now a believer in UFO's because of my
experience with a Green object last night.  Last night while I
was waiting for my girlfriend to get home from work on October
27, 2003, I looked up to see the stars, but noticed an object
that looked green with a glow at 12: 20 PM.  I realized after
further observation that it was not an aircraft and it was like
something I remember seeing when I was about 10 years old at my
grandparents' house in Ozark, Alabama. I was so full of
excitement, but was realistically observing around 3 to 5
minutes.  The craft flashed an orange-red color and then
disappeared.  Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Missouri - Flying Triangle (Kite-Like) Sightings Continue

TROY - The observer on October 30, 2003, went outside at 10 PM,
to walk his dogs and looked up to try to see the Aurora lights.
There were no lights but coming out of the NW, was a strange
looking triangular object. It was like an upside down kite in
shape. There were four lights that were visible in the front,
one in the back, and one on each side. They were also yellow
lights that were not blinking as in most commercial aircraft.
The witness says, "It went over my home, and moved like it was
gliding, but it was quick and was flying at 750 feet." If I held
my fist up in the air, it appeared to cover it. There has been a
series of sightings over West Central Missouri during the fall
with many reporting a strange row of bright lights hovering over
fields and flying triangles. These sightings are not far from
Whiteman Air Force Base, the home of the B-2 bomber.  On
November 4th, two more UFOs having a straight row of 3 to 6 very
bright amber lights were seen over Elisnore and Greenville. On
November 5, a UFO was seen over St. Joe. Thanks to Peter
Davenport UFOcenter

Kansas - I Was Driving And Saw A Silver Disc

TOPEKA - The witness was driving north at 7 PM, when he noticed
a large military plane in the northern sky on October 30, 2003,
but higher up he saw a silver disk east of the plane. The
military plane was moving away, but the silver disk was not
moving. The witness said, =E2=C7oI drove to a place where I could
park my car and watch the disk." It started to move slowly to
the west. I got back in the car and drove the 4 blocks to my
house. When I got there, the disk was gone. Thanks to Peter
Davenport UFOcenter

ARIZONA - Several Bright Triangular Objects

TUCSON - The observer was walking his dogs at 11 PM, and
observed two triangular objects in the west and two in the east
on October 31, 2003. Using binoculars he saw them change colors
from red, to white, to blue. Often they emit beams of light. He
stated, =E2=C7oOne night I saw little crafts going off what appeared
to be the mother craft that are generally in the same area."
Davis Monthan Air Force Base is in Tucson. Thanks to Peter
Davenport UFOcenter

California - Video Of UFO Shot

MODESTO --  R. David Anderson reports, I was working outside the
building on October 19, 2003, on a sunroom addition onto our
house. As I looked up to see if the upper frame was level I saw
a UFO coming from the north. It was bright, star like, and it
made a loop around the house and hovered above me for about five
minutes. I went into the house and got binoculars and went back
outside and looked at it using the binoculars. In the binoculars
the UFO appeared to be changing shapes, from a sphere to an
elongated form. My daughter came out of the house and I showed
her the UFO. She was surprised to see a bright star in the
middle of the day. I gave her the binoculars and she also
commented that it was changing shapes. I observed the UFO
dividing into two spheres, and another long shaped craft
appeared between the two spheres. There was suddenly a lot of
wispy "steam" where the long UFO was, and then my daughter yells
" Look, there's a jet." I looked down to where she was pointing,
and there was a long object, moving at an angle towards us.
Without sound. I saw a bright luminous elongated shape moving
against the sky, that changed to a tan color and I could then
see it in detail. It was shaped like a cigar with a triangle on
the front of it. On the sides were many rectangular features.

After lunch, I got the video camera and spotted three UFO's
coming from the north and recorded the UFO's as they traveled
above the house. These UFO's were spherical in shape, bright and
closer, and are the ones in the video. They traveled in unison.
About 40 minutes later, I also got another shot of a UFO moving
above the tree. Thanks to R. David Anderson


Washington - Saucer Plus Strange Black Cloud

SPANAWAY -- I was walking home from school and saw one saucer
shaped craft heading East towards Mt. Rainier. It was silver,
with a visible shadow on the bottom where the sun didn't hit
on October 30, 2003. It wasn't going incredibly fast, but it
was steady. It zigzagged a couple of times and then finally
disappeared behind the clouds. Thanks to Peter Davenport

INDIANOLA -- Dr. Annamarie K Johnstone reports, =E2=C7oI was taking
photographs with my 35 mm camera over Highway 82 and noticed a
dark shadow or silhouette to the right of a chemtrail curve."
 Clouds are pushed in front of a dark shadow, perhaps indicating
its movement forward.  Much fainter behind the lead shadow,
forming a rough triangle with the lead are two more suspects.
 The second photo shows that the dark shadow clouds have moved,
but maintain their shape. Similar shadows are occurring in
Fostoria, Ohio and photographed by George Ritter. Thanks to A.
K. Johnstone Ph.D.

Canada - Large Craft And Disk Seen On Halloween

HAMILTON, ONTARIO -- On October 31, 2003, I saw a large craft,
from about four miles away on Halloween night at 7 PM, with a
white/blue aura over its length. The craft was lighted all along
its length unlike an airplane, with some blue, red, and white
lights flashing, within the overall white/blue light of the
craft. I attempted to get to a better vantage point quickly, but
had to proceed with caution since the streets were filled with
thousands. When I got there, the object was gone. Our airplanes
do not have blue lights and our airplanes do not light up so you
can see them at night. Only their navigation lights and
headlamps are visible.

VANCOUVER - The observer reports seeing a disk that appeared
like the original craft from "Lost in Space" at 3 PM, on October
31, 2003. It had rotating multi-colored lights on the bottom and
side of red, orange, green, blue, yellow, and white. It flew
silent, low, and hovered.  There were many more lights than any
conventional airplane with rotating lights under and around the
side. It didn't seem real, like Christmas tree lights rotating.
It was eerily silent, and moved in more of a hover, with almost
a slight wobble from too low a speed. It was enormous in size
and would have been visible to anyone who was outside at 3 AM,
near English Bay.

STONER, BC -- On October 26, 2003, at 5 PM, while traveling
along Highway 97 just south of Stoner a couple saw what looked
like an aircraft coming in for a landing with its landing lights
on, just over the top of the trees. The light was extremely
bright and too big to be a normal aircraft due to its size,
brightness and how low it was flying. The couple was driving at
100 kilometers an hour (60 MPH) and catching up to the flying
object. It hovered, then started moving again. Occasionally they
lost sight of it due to the trees but when they got to the crest
of the hill, they spotted it again flying slowly just underneath
the 8,000 feet cloud cover.  It was traveling straight across
from them when the light disappeared, reappeared and then
finally vanished. Others on the highway probably saw it.  Thanks
to: Brian Vike, Director, Hotline 1 866 262 CANADA HBCC

Venezuela - More UFOs Sighted

CARACAS -- Luminous UFOs were seen again last week near Cerro El
Avila, a mountain on the outskirts of the capital. On October
21, 2003, Sra. Ligia Peralta reported sighting of a strong
luminous object of extremely large dimensions at 7:30 p.m.  The
object flew over the barrio Ola Juliano and then darted away and
disappeared behind the peak of Cerro El Avila. At one point, the
object descended to within eight meters (26 feet) of a house
located on the hillside.  She described the object, as
generating a very resplendent white light, which spread across
the residential zone for several minutes before the UFO
retreated behind the mountain. On Saturday, October 25, 2003, at
2 p.m., five witnesses watched the aerial maneuvers of a
circular black object, which moved dizzily over the highly-
populated area at the foot of Cerro El Avila.  The witnesses
stated the object appeared repeatedly and flew over the greater
Caracas, before shooting off toward the horizon.

Another witness, Srta. Raquel Rivero, spotted another UFO later
the same day at 6 PM, over the Urbanizacion Mario Porezo. The
young lady spotted an intense bluish-white light that was
stationary for ten minutes, as its luminosity gradually
diminished.  Thanks to Arturo Escalante para estos informes and
UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 #42, Joseph Trainor editor


France - Smoke Trail Over the Moon During Eclipse


METZ - The evening of November 7, 2003, the photographer while
traveling 17h13 autoroute Longway? (49 20 34- 06 03 03) saw a
smoke trail over the Moon for less one minute. By chance, he had
his camera and made two photographs on silver film. He reported
the anomalie on the astronomy newsgroups in the US, UK, France,
and to Harvard University PM. Data: Apparent geocentric position
right rise 1h 25m 52s Declination 6=C2=B0 18' 48" outdistance
402,517 km Constellation fish Appearance Diameter 29.69'
Illumination 96% Libration in longitude 4.051=C2=B0 Libration in
latitude 3.260=C2=B0  He developed the film with the microphen into
800 ASA not to have the overexposed lunar disc, such an amount
of worse for the other photographs. The Moon made 1mm on the
negative one, while waiting for the silver images, here are
reconstitutions lunar formation, the train=C3=A9e black one seemed
behaves like it was projected on the top of the lunar disc and
falling down. Thanks to Thierry Speth E-mail was in French and
data may be lost in translation. See photos at:
http://membres.lycos.fr/aalenia/ltp071103.htm:


Greece - The Light Was Too Fast For A Plane!

CORFU -- While fishing from a dock for squid on October 27,
2003, I looked up and saw a light moving (star size) at 8 PM.
 At the beginning, I thought it was a plane but the speed was
what made me follow the movement.  No, it wasn't a falling star.
The speed was slower, yet faster, than that of an airplane then
it made a turn and vanished behind some clouds, before I had a
chance to tell my two friends standing a few feet away. Thanks
to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

India - UFOs Sighted In Valley

MALSHEJ GHAT - The witness who is 38 years old took his family
on a short  holiday to a resort on October 28, 2003.  At about 4
AM, we were awakened because we had lost electricity and it was
very hot inside the hotel room. We opened the balcony door and
sat there a while.  Soon my daughter noticed the valley was lit
up by a pale white light. It was like a dull white florescent
glow. Soon it faded out and we were confused.  Then, we noticed
that a 'star' was moving overhead. It was fast but not as fast
as a shooting star. Then we noticed another big star moving left
to right slowly. Again, this was hard to believe but then we
noticed that as compared to other stars in that area this was
the only one moving. Soon this bright star lost its light and
faded away.  After a lot of thought, I am convinced that this
was a sighting of two UFOs.  Thanks to Peter Davenport


South Korea - Disk Among Pictures

SEOUL -- I took a picture of my daughter on November 2, 2003, at
1:19 PM.  Among 3 pictures taken for 1 second in a row
(automatically), the UFO (believed so) showed only in the middle
one. It was shown over the mountain and looked like a dish which
had about a 45 degree slope. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter


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Filer's Files is copyrighted 2003 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved.

Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites if they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date
of issue. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
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Regards,

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www.georgefiler.com







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 13

                       Canadian National Defence Files

From: Gordon Heath <gheath@telus.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:51:40 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:43:51 -0500
Subject: Canadian National Defence Files


>From: Ringuet, Isabelle
>To: 'gheath@telus.net'
>Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 12:05 PM
>Subject: National Defence file


>Ottawa, 12 November 2003

>Our Reference number: 2003-2004/26813

>Dear Gordon Heath,

>Carole Berthelette has forwarded to us your request for file
>RG24, vol. 22664, file 'squadron 412'.

>As that file is open, you may come to the National Archives of
>Canada to consult it in person. Infopages # 1 and # 2 explain
>how to consult documents. Infopage # 5 explains how to request
>photocopies and costs.

>Thank you for your interest in the National Archives of Canada.
>Please do not hesitate to contact us if we can be of further
>assistance to you.


>Yours sincerely,

>Isabelle Ringuet
>Reference Archivist/Archiviste de r=E9f=E9rence
>Services de r=E9f=E9rence / Reference Services
>Archives nationales du Canada / National Archives of Canada


Dear Ms. Ringuet;

Thank you for the non-answer to my request for a quotation for
the cost of copying and sending this file to me.

I already know that the file is supposedly open and can
supposedly be viewed at National Archives.

I wish to inform you that I have already flown to Ottawa (at
considerable personal expense), for the purpose of viewing this
file.

Is it possible for me to receive a quotation for the costs of
duplicating these files (which are supposedly open to the
public), without receiving further condescending email about the
"process" for doing so, as I have previously requested?

I have no idea how many pages are in this file, and I previously
understood that the National Archives would be able to provide
me a quotation for the costs of servicing my InfoSource request
without me guessing at the costs for doing so.

I can only say that I am totally unsatisfied that "our"
government archives are in fact open to the public, and are
instead being held in captive service to government client
interests.


Yours truly,

Gord Heath






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 13

                 Re: The Universe As A Hologram - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 02:46:52 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:34:14 -0500
Subject: Re: The Universe As A Hologram - Goldstein


>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:03:08 -0800 (PST)
>Subject: Re: The Universe As A Hologram

>>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:51:00 -0200
>>Subject: The Universe As A Hologram

>>Source: http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html

>>The Universe as a Hologram
>>Author unknown

>>Does Objective Reality Exist, or is the Universe a Phantasm?

>This article reminds me of the following essay I wrote for my
>weblog:

>Saturday, November 08, 2003

>Most of us think of existence as basically linear: to get to
>point C from point A, you must first traverse point B. I think
>it's more likely (and much more fun) to consider that we're
>recreated moment to moment out of raw information, and that
>points A, B and C don't exist except in our endlessly
>reconstituted minds.

<snip>

>For a fictional excursion into similar territory, I recommend
>Greg Egan's "Permutation City," which examines the existential
>status of electronic copies of the human nervous system.



Hello Mac and fellow Listerians,

In some way your fine essay reminds me of the kind of insights,
illusions, or delusions I became illuminated to, way back in my
psychedelic years. It was a pleasant relief from a bad hangover
I was nursing from the shock of the bad news I received
yesterday when I learned right here on UpDates that the
notorious John Lear has re-entered the UFO world with his
rampant paranoia.

I well remember that period of the late 1980s and early 1990s
when I had some really bad experiences with him and his psycho
supraparanoid sidekick and butt up his ass, Bill Cooper. I knew
Cooper was on a rocket ship to some violent Hellish ending and
sure enough he died in a sick and ugly murderous rampage.

Now the great pilot whose mind went wildly out of control named
John Lear is back. I want to spit out the bad taste.

Back to expansive concepts such as the linking of subatomic
particles imagined out to be the unknown dimension that connects
all in a direct dance within a holographic universe. That seems
wonderful but it is easy to forget that much of this is still
theory and has yet to be confirmed.

It is easy to mind-jump ahead of the theory as I feel some folks
did in trying to connect quantum physics theories with spiritual
concepts. I had the most amazing experiences on psychedelics but
my objective center remembers that those were during the effects
of very powerful drugs. Was it the unknown dimension or
wonderful phantasmagoria? Is it anything like conceptualizing
that amazing looking structures on Mars may be the creations of
an unknown intelligence? <g>

Maybe I am just lost in a holotropic, holographic, and
holophonic phantasm? Or is it all existential static? Maybe the
universe is holographic art God placed on his wall and then
forgot about? <g>

I met Hugo Zucarelli some years ago and still have a holophonic
sound cassettte. I hadn't thought about it for a long time. I'll
have to try an A-B test of its effects compared to current 5.1
digital surround sound formats.


Back to mental mischief,

Josh








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   Nov > Nov 13

                   Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:22:35 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:23:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Sparks


>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:02:02 -0300
>Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Mori

>>From: Brad Sparks
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 20:31:18 EST
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update [was: Trindade]

>>I see no response to the fact that Noguez proposes the
>>pseudoscientific notion [that a double exposure could subtract
>>light and create a darker object in the Trindade photos.]

>Can you quote where Noguez "proposes ... double exposure"? At
>the end of your message you explained how you somehow understood
>that because Noguez suggested a photomontage of a Twin Bonanza,
>and the Twin Bonanza was proposed by Powell, and Powell claimed
>double exposure, then Noguez also claimed double exposure, along
>with photomontage, of course. This, despite the fact that Noguez
>explicitly claims in his conclusion photomontage, and only
>photomontage, with no margin for reasonable confusion.
<snip>

>Noguez didn't claim double exposure in his work....

<snip>

Noguez explicitly claims several contradictory and impossible
alleged events in his "Conclusions" scenario -- to say there is
no "confusion" in his writing on this point is palpably absurd.
You are trying to force me to make logical sense out of Noguez
illogical contradictions -- another type of impossibility --
 just so I can defend my logical critique of his illogic. You
think you can force me to make Noguez look good (seem logical)
just so I can defend myself. Guess again buddy. I will just
reiterate Noguez's nonsense.

Earlier in his web article, Noguez discussed with approval
Powell's theory of DOUBLE EXPOSURE in the Trindade photos
wherein the "UFO" image was purportedly of a fogged up Twin
Bonanza aircraft. Then in his "Conclusions" Noguez asserts
without a shred of evidence that photographer Barauna and his
group "substituted" one roll of film in Barauna's camera with
another roll by "some method of prestidigitation" or trickery at
a certain "moment" aboard the Brazilian Navy ship and that the
"UFO" images were really a fogged Twin Bonanza. Isn't that true?
Isn't that what Noguez writes? Noguez states (sorry I have to
delete the accents because they won't come through the email):

NOGUEZ: "... tenia que hacer desaparecer el negativo de la
Rolleiflex y sustituir las fotos con las del avion.... Trataba
de encontrar el momento adecuado para la sustitucion."

ENGLISH: "... he had to make the negative in the Rolleiflex
[camera] disappear and substitute the photos with those of the
aircraft.... He tried to find the moment [most] suitable for the
substitution." [rough translation]

There is NO "PHOTOMONTAGE" here. This all happening, this
"moment," aboard the ship anchored off Trindade island. This is
not back at Barauna's lab in Rio. This is a switching of one
film roll which had no fake "UFO" photos on it, "substituted"
with another film roll which allegedly DID have fake "UFO"
photos, those of the fogged up Twin Bonanza aircraft. That is
what Noguez is saying here -- and tripping himself up with
confusing contradictions elsewhere in the same paragraph and
same section, which you refuse to acknowledge.

Maybe you misunderstand what a photomontage means. Maybe you
think a photomontage is not the pasting of fabricated images
onto another film but that it is a kind of double exposure or
maybe that montage is not a mounting but a switching of film
rolls???

Thanks for admitting that it is impossible to subtract light in
a double exposure so that a double exposure cannot have created
a dark UFO image superimposed on the bright sky in the Trindade
photos -- you can jawbone all you want about other photos with
special situations and quote anonymous pseudoscience speculation
but you can't get it to work in the specific photometry of the
Trindade photos with half the photos covered with bright
overcast noontime sky and the dark UFO images in the midst of
that sky. Why do you even defend double exposure if you insist
that Noguez is only talking about photomontage and that that is
what you think is the likely explanation?


Brad Sparks







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   Nov > Nov 13

                            HBCC UFO On Dreamland

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 23:14:25 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:29:13 -0500
Subject: HBCC UFO On Dreamland


Good Day List

I like to keep folks informed as to some of the things I am
working on. Some of the cases are fascinating, where others
leave me with a deep feeling of sadness. I will be talking about
some of these cases on Dreamland this weekend with Whitley
Strieber.

Another follow-up report will be given on the Missing Time case
from Kelowna, British Columbia. I know many of you out there
have been following this major case, and there is a lot more to
come. I must say the news is not good.

So for the latest from HBCC UFO please tune into Dreamland this
weekend. Information can be found at:

http://www.unknowncountry.com/dreamland/?id=158


Take care

Brian Vike

Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm







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   Nov > Nov 13

               Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 07:42:27 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:37:15 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:36:58 -0800
>Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca>
>>Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 07:19:32 -0600
>>Subject: Re: UFOs Still Have Plenty Of True Believers

<snip>

>>Now this is simply startling! And you wrote that like you knew
>>for sure! Who are some of these so *honored* so that we may
>>trumpet them from our thatched rooftops, and herald the *honor*
>>that has been so imposed (...let them know!)?

>Regarding the acronym, CSICOP, as you presented it, i.e.,
>"Committee for the Seriously Insentient Commitment of Obdurate
>Persons"; no good would come from trumpeting the names of those
>that hold rank within the order, for so many are "unaware of
>their position." Moreover, methinks there would be nothing but
>stentorious denial. (The initials GWB do come to mind though).
>:^)

Rather like a CSICOPic Illuminati, then? LOL!  And I don't think
the person suggested has the sense to know that that's where he
stands...

>Beware of those who have stopped asking questions.....

Or those that 'know' they already have all the answers? LOL! I
kill me! LOL!


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Nov > Nov 13

                 Re: NASA's Missing Two Crates Of Kecksburg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 08:52:53 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:22:34 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA's Missing Two Crates Of Kecksburg


>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Subject: Re: NASA's missing two crates of Kecksburg documents
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:49:17 -0600

>>From: Francis Knize <Frankknee@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:01:06 EST
>>Subject: NASA's Missing Two Of Kecksburg Documents

>>[Non-subscriber Post]

>>NASA's Missing Two Crates Of Kecksburg Documents

>>Dear Steven Bassett,

>>Upon examination of the released Kecksburg documents from NASA
>>(under pressure from the Sci-Fi Channel), it has been revealed
>>that a letter from NASA Headquarters written by the Records
>>Manager; Paul Willis in 1996 said two boxes of documents went
>>missing.

><snip>

>>"Strangely, it was skeptic - and possible agent for the
>>government for better or for worse - Jim Oberg who posted it at
>>Virtually Strange UFO Network UFO UpDates"

><snip>

>Wow (chuckle) - gummint agents are the enemy - the last refuge
>of the charlatan and crackpot.

Wow (chuckle) - there's room in that refuge for more than
charlatans and crackpots, sir, who are , by the way, not
charlatans and crackpots because -you- say they are! Moreover,
if one brushes up on the writings of Dr. Michael Parenti, Gary
Webb, and Richard M. Dolan it's plain that the concept of
government agent as potential *enemy* is just not that far
afield.

>Thanks for painting yourself so
>unambiguosly.


To the contrary. Mr. Knize left himself all kinds of wiggle room
with _his_ comment... while you continue to paint _yourself_
predictably with yours.

>If there was a coverup, the best way to keep it from proof would
>be to muddy up the waters with ravings like this to discredit
>investigations.

Or even someone, such as yourself, making inflammatory comments
and tendering personal attacks, provoking an unthinking response
and therefore contributing to same?

>Since the same note asks for money, maybe
>comments like this - helpful to the coverup - are bought and
>paid for by the coverupers?

"CFI and Sci-Fi Channel should hire somebody like me to go find
out these things and document on video....."

... This seems more a suggestion for a plan of efficacious
action than the whorish bit of shameless pandering that you
paint it to be (with -you-, sir, one really doesn't need to
paint themselves, you swing a broad enough brush all by
yourself...). I submit that the seeming wit of your comment's
reach exceeds its canted grasp and comes off a little
disingenuous, as the _only_ result.

>Naw... simple silliness is a more
>likely explanation.

...Nothing remotely silly in Mr. Knize's contribution, sir. If
you want "silly", go no further than the "Committee for the
Seriously Insentient Commitment of Obdurate Persons" for whoopee
cushions and floppy court jester hats.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Nov > Nov 13

              Re: West Central Minnesota Oval Object - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:20:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:42:19 -0500
Subject: Re: West Central Minnesota Oval Object - Stanford


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:38:13 -0500
>Subject: Re: West Central Minnesota Oval Object

>>From: Brian Vike - HBCCUFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:48:13 -0800
>>Subject: West Central Minnesota Oval Object

>>I have been receiving a number of reports and pictures of some
>>strange objects from around the same area from which this photo:

>>http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/minnesotaoval.html

>>comes. Although this is a short report, the picture is of
>>interest.

<snip>

>Hi Brian,

>I think somebody is trying to put one over on you.

<snip>

>Multiple exposures of the Moon says I. Does anybody else concur?

Hi John,

Since you asked if anybody else concurs, I contribute a response
comes from the 'Amen! corner'? I think you are quite correct. To
me, that conclusion came forcibly to mind upon first seeing the
image, and I'm glad you have had the 'guts' to point it out -
 which 'guts' I didn't have, until you 'led interference.

There is, as you likely know, precedent for such loony - pun
intended :) - attempts to fool UFO researchers. Caveat emptor.

Thanks, John,
Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery






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                             Lunar Image Anomaly

From: Dan Bright <ufo@zaziork.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:03:33 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:01:58 -0500
Subject: Lunar Image Anomaly


Dear Listers,

I am currently in the process of soliciting analysis and comment
from several astronomers and astronomical institutions of an
image that shows an object passing over the lunar disk, as
photographed from the West Midlands (UK). The image also appears
to show an associated shadow cast on the lunar surface.

If anyone on List knows of any astronomers who may be willing to
take a look, may I request that you point me (or them) in the
right direction?

I'd also like to call upon the wealth of experience represented
on this List, and ask if anyone here has observed anything
similar.

The case file can be viewed here:

http://zaziork.com/theunexplained/case_files/case_008/main.htm

If anyone wishes to take a more thorough look, please get in
touch and I'll email a copy of the original (full size) image
file to you.

Many thanks.

--
Dan Bright
www.TheUnexplained.info







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   Nov > Nov 14

                            Our Capacity To Chose

From: Victor Viggiani <zland@sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:42:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 06:39:24 -0500
Subject: Our Capacity To Chose


Disclosure Dialogue -

List:

What is written below was passed along to me by a friend. Who
the original author(s) may be or from where they come, I know
not. Whoever did write the piece and where ever they're from,
they have given the UFO/ETI issue much thought. They have
captured the essence of the geo-political mess we are in and the
decisions we may need to make to find a way out.

Despite its origin, it raises provocative questions,
crystallizes issues in a rather unique manner and presents
perspectives few of us entertain with any frequency.

Have a read...

Regards

Victor Viggiani

-----

Decide Whether We Should Show Up

The e-mail reproduced here is circulating around the internet
and was allegedly received from an unknown source. No matter its
origin, the question it asks is an important one, and each of us
needs to consider our answer.

DECIDE WHETHER WE SHOULD SHOW UP!

Whoever transmitted this translated message to you is
irrelevant, and should remain anonymous in your mind. It is what
you will do with this message which matters. Each one of you
wishes to exercise her/his free will and experience happiness.
These are attributes that were shown to us and to which we now
have access. Your free will depends upon the knowledge you have
of your own power. Your happiness depends upon the love that you
give and receive. Like all conscious races at this stage of
progress, you may feel isolated on your planet. This impression
makes you sure of your destiny. Yet, you are at the brink of big
upheavals that only a minority is aware of. It is not our
responsibility to modify your future without you choosing it.
Consider this message as a worldwide referendum! And your answer
as a ballot!

Who are we ?

 Neither your scientists nor your religious representatives
speak unanimously about the unexplained celestial events that
mankind has witnessed for thousands of years. To know the truth,
one must face it without the filter of one s beliefs, however
respectable they may be. A growing number of anonymous
researchers of yours are exploring new knowledge paths and are
getting very close to reality. Today, your civilization is
flooded with an ocean of information of which only a tiny part,
the less upsetting one, is notably diffused. What in your
history seemed ridiculous or improbable has often become
possible, then realized, in particular in the last fifty years.
Be aware that the future will be even more surprising. You will
discover the worst as well as the best.

Like billions others in this galaxy, we are conscious creatures
that some name "extra-terrestrials," even though reality is
subtler. There is no fundamental difference between you and us,
save for the experience of certain stages of evolution. Like in
any other organized structure, hierarchy exists in our internal
relationships. Ours is based upon the wisdom of several races.
It is with the approval of this hierarchy that we turn to you.
Like most of you, we are in the quest of the Supreme Being.
Therefore we are not gods or lesser gods but virtually your
equals in the Cosmic Brotherhood.

Physically, we are somewhat different from you but most of us
are humanoid-shaped. Our existence is a reality but the majority
of you does not perceive it yet. We are not mere observations,
we are consciences just like you. You fail to apprehend us
because we remain invisible to your senses and instruments most
of the time. We wish to fill this void at this moment in your
history. We made this collective decision but this is not
enough. We need yours. Through this message, you become the
decision-makers ! You personally. We have no human
representative on Earth who could guide your decision.

Why aren t we visible ? At certain stages of evolution, cosmic
"humanities" discover new forms of science beyond the apparent
control of matter. Structured dematerialization and
materialization are part of them. This is what your humanity has
reached in a few laboratories, in close collaboration with other
"extraterrestrial" creatures at the cost of hazardous
compromises that remain purposely hidden from you by some of
your representatives. Apart from the aerial or spatial objects
or phenomena known about by your scientific community, that you
call UFOs, there are essentially multidimensional manufactured
spaceships that apply these capacities.

Many human beings have been in visual, auditory, tactile or
psychic contact with such ships, some of which are under occult
powers that "govern" you. The scarcity of your observations is
due to the outstanding advantages provided by the dematerialized
state of these ships. By not witnessing them by yourself, you
cannot believe in their existence. We fully understand this. The
majority of these observations are made on an individual basis
so as to touch the soul and not to modify any organized system.
This is deliberate from the races that surround you but for very
different reasons and results.

For negative multidimensional beings that play a part in the
exercise of power in the shadow of human oligarchy, discretion
is motivated by their will to keep their existence and seizure
unknown. For us, discretion is motivated by the respect of the
human free will that people can exercise to manage their own
affairs so that they can reach technical and spiritual maturity
on their own. Humankind s entrance into the family of galactic
civilizations is greatly expected.

We can appear in broad daylight and help you attain this union.
We haven t done it so far, as too few of you have genuinely
desired it, because of ignorance, indifference or fear, and
because the situation did not justify it. Many of those who
study our appearances count the lights in the night without
lighting the way. Often they think in terms of objects when it
is all about conscious beings.

Who are you ?

You are the offspring of many traditions that throughout time
have been mutually enriched by each others contributions. The
same applies to the races at the surface of the Earth. Your goal
is to unite in the respect of these roots to accomplish a common
project. The appearance of your cultures seems to keep you
separated because you substitute it to your deeper being. Shape
is now more important than the essence of your subtle nature.
For the powers in place, this prevalence of the shape
constitutes the ramparts against any form of jeopardy. You are
being called on to overcome shape while still respecting it for
its richness and beauty. Understanding the conscience of shape
makes us love men in their diversity. Peace does not mean not
making war, it consists in becoming what you are in reality: a
fraternity. To understand this, the number of solutions within
your reach are decreasing. One of them consists in contact with
another race that would reflect! the image of what you are in
reality.

What is your situation?

Except for rare occasions, our interventions always had very
little incidence on your capacity to make collective and
individual decisions about your own future. This is motivated by
our knowledge of your deep psychological mechanisms. We reached
the conclusion that freedom is built every day as a being
becomes aware of himself and of his environment, getting
progressively rid of constraints and inertia. Despite the
numerous, brave and willing human consciences, this inertia is
artificially maintained for the profit of a growing centralizing
power. Until recently, mankind lived a satisfying control of its
decisions. But it is losing more and more the control of its own
fate because of the growing use of advanced technologies, which
have lethal consequences on the earthly and human ecosystems
that will become irreversible. You are slowly but surely losing
your extraordinary capacity to make life desirable. Your
resilience will artificially de! crease, independently of your
own will. Such technologies exist that affect your body as well
as your mind. Such plans are on the way.

This can change as long as you keep this creative power in you,
even if it cohabits with the dark intentions of your potential
lords. This is the reason why we remain invisible. This
individual power is doomed to vanish should a collective
reaction of great magnitude not happen. The period to come is
that of rupture, whichever it may be. But should you wait for
the last moment to find solutions ? Should you anticipate or
undergo pain ?

Your history has never ceased to be marked by encounters between
peoples who had to discover one another in conditions that were
often in conflict. Conquests almost always happened to the
detriment of others. Earth has now become a village where
everyone knows everyone else but still conflicts persist and
threats of all kinds get worse in duration and intensity.
Although a Human being is an individual, having many potential
capacities, he cannot exercise them with dignity. This is the
case for the majority of you for reasons that are essentially
geopolitical. There are several billion of you. The education of
your children and your living conditions, as well as the
conditions of numerous animals and much plant life are
nevertheless under the thumb of a small number of your
political, financial, military and religious representatives.
Your thoughts and beliefs are modeled after partisan interests
which turn you into slaves, while at the same time giving you
the feeli! ng that you are in total control of your destiny,
which in essence is the reality.

But there is a long way between a wish and a fact when the true
rules of the game at hand are unknown. This time, you are not
the conqueror. Biased information is a military strategy for
human beings. Inducting thoughts, emotions or organisms that do
not belong to you via ad hoc technologies is an even older a
strategy. Wonderful opportunities of progress stand close to big
subtle and destruction threats. These dangers and opportunities
exist now. However, you can only perceive what is being shown to
you.

The end of natural resources is programmed whereas no long- term
collective project has been launched. Ecosystem exhaustion
mechanisms have exceeded irreversible limits. The scarcity of
resources and their unfair distribution - resources which entry
price will rise day after day - will bring about fratricide
fights at a large scale, but also strike at the very heart of
your cities and countryside. Hatred grows bigger but so does
love. That is what keeps you confident in your ability to find
solutions. But the critical mass is insufficient and sabotage is
cleverly being carried out. Human behaviors, formed from past
habits and training, have inertia that leads you to a dead end.
You entrust these problems to representatives, whose conscience
of common well-being slowly fades away in front of corporate
interests. They are always debating on the form but rarely on
the content. Just at the moment of action, delays will
accumulate to the point when you have to submit rat! her than
choose. This is the reason why, more than ever in your history,
your decisions of today will directly and significantly impact
your survival of tomorrow.

What event could radically modify this inertia that is typical
of any civilization ? Where will a collective and unifying
awareness come from, that will stop this blind rushing ahead ?
Tribes, populations and human nations have always encountered
and interacted with one another. Faced with the threats weighing
upon the human family, it is perhaps time that a greater
interaction occurred. A great wave is on the verge of emerging.
It mixes very positive and very negative aspects.

Who are the "third party?"

There are two ways to establish a cosmic contact with another
civilization: via its standing representatives or directly with
individuals without distinction. The first way entails fights of
interests, the second way brings awareness. The first way was
chosen by a group of races motivated by keeping mankind in
slavery, thereby controlling Earth resources, the gene pool and
human emotional energy. The second way was chosen by a group of
races allied with the cause of the spirit of service. We have,
at our end, subscribed to this disinterested cause and
introduced ourselves a few years ago to representatives of the
human power who refused our outstretched hand on the pretext of
incompatible interests with their strategic vision. That is why
today individuals are to make this choice by themselves without
any representative interfering. What we proposed in the past to
those whom we believed were in a capacity to contribute to your
happiness, w! e propose it now to you!

Most of you aren t aware that non-human creatures took part in
the exercise of those centralizing powers without being
suspected or accessible to your senses. This is so true that
they have almost very subtly taken control. They do not
necessarily agree with your material plan, and that is precisely
what could make them extremely efficient and frightening in the
near future. However, be aware that a large number of your
representatives are fighting this danger. Be aware that not all
abductions are made against you.

It is difficult to recognize the truth. How could you under such
conditions exercise your free will when it is so much
manipulated ? What are you really free of ? Peace and
reunification of your peoples would be a first step toward the
harmony with civilizations other than yours. That is precisely
what those who manipulate you behind the scenes want to avoid at
all costs because, by dividing, they reign! They also reign over
those who govern you. Their strength comes from their capacity
to instill mistrust and fear into you. This considerably harms
your very cosmic nature.

This message would be of no interest if these manipulators
tutorage did not reach its peak and if their misleading and
murderous plans did not materialize in a few years from now.
Their deadlines are close and mankind will undergo unprecedented
torments for the next ten cycles. To defend yourselves against
this aggression that bears no face, you need at least to have
enough information that leads to the solution. As is also the
case with humans, resistance exists among those dominant races.
Here again, appearance will not be enough to tell the dominator
from the ally. In your current state of intuition, it is
extremely difficult for you to distinguish between them. In
addition to your intuition, training will be necessary when the
time has come. Being aware of the priceless value of free will,
we are inviting you to an alternative.

What can we offer ?

We can offer you a more holistic vision of the universe and of
life, constructive interactions, the experience of fair and
fraternal relationships, liberating technical knowledge,
eradication of suffering, controlled exercise of individual
powers, the access to new forms of energy and, finally, a better
comprehension of consciousness.

We cannot help you overcome your individual and collective
fears, or bring you laws that you would not have chosen, or help
you work on yourselves, in an individual and collective effort
to build the world you desire, in the spirit of quest to explore
new skies.

What would we receive?

Should you decide that such a contact takes place, we would
rejoice over the safeguarding of fraternal equilibrium in this
region of the universe, fruitful diplomatic exchanges, and the
intense joy of knowing that you are united in order to
accomplish what you are capable of. The feeling of joy is
strongly sought in the universe, for its energy is divine.

What is the question we ask you ? "DO YOU WISH THAT WE SHOW UP?"
How to can you answer this question ? The truth of soul can be
read by telepathy. You only need to clearly ask yourself this
question and give your answer as clearly, on your own or in a
group, as you wish. Being in the heart of a city or in the
middle of a desert does not impact the efficiency of your
answer, YES or NO, IMMEDIATELY AFTER ASKING THE QUESTION! Just
do it as if you were speaking to yourself but thinking about the
message. This is a universal question and these mere few words,
put in their context, have a powerful meaning. You should not
let hesitation stand in the way.

This is why you should calmly think about it, in all conscience.
In order to perfectly associate your answer with the question,
it is recommended that you answer right after another reading of
this message. Do not rush to answer. Breathe and let all the
power of your own free will penetrate you. Be proud of what you
are ! The problems that you have may have weaken you. Forget
about them for a few minutes and be yourselves. Feel the force
that springs up in you. You are in control of yourselves! A
single thought, a single answer can drastically change your near
future, in one way as in another. Your individual decision of
asking in your inner self that we show up on your material plane
and in broad daylight is precious and essential to us.

Even though you can choose the way that best suits you, rituals
are essentially useless. A sincere request, made with your heart
and your own will, will always be perceived by those of us to
whom it is sent. In your own private polling booth of your
secret will, you will determine the future.

What is the lever effect ? This decision should be made by the
greatest number among you, even though it might seem like a
minority. It is recommended to spread this message, in all
imaginable ways, in as many languages as possible, to those
around you, whether or not they seem receptive to this new
vision of the future. Do it using in a humorous tone or derision
if that can help you. You can even openly and publicly make fun
of it if it makes you feel more comfortable, but do not be
indifferent for at least you will have exercised your free will.
Forget about the false prophets and the beliefs that have been
transmitted to you about us. This request is one of the most
intimate that can be asked to you.

Making a decision by yourself, as an individual, is your right
as well as your responsibility! Passivity only leads to the
absence of freedom. Similarly, indecision is never efficient. If
you really want to cling to your beliefs, which is something
that we understand, then say NO. If you do not know what to
choose, do not say YES because of mere curiosity. This is not a
show, this is real daily life, WE ARE ALIVE! And living! Your
history has plenty of episodes when determined men and women
were able to influence the thread of events in spite of their
small number. Just like a small number is enough to take
temporal power on Earth and influence the future of the
majority, a small number of you can radically change your fate
as an answer to the impotence in face of so much inertia and so
many hurdles! You can ease the mankind s birth to Brotherhood.
One of your thinkers once said: "Give me a handhold and I ll
raise the Earth." Spreading this message will then be the !
handhold to strengthen, we will be the light-years long lever,
you will be the craftsmen to raise the Earth, as a consequence
of our appearance.

What would be the consequences of a positive decision?

For us, the immediate consequence of a collective favorable
decision would be the materialization of many ships, in your sky
and on Earth. For you, the direct effect would be the rapid
abandoning of many certitudes and beliefs. A simple conclusive
visual contact would have huge repercussions on your future.
Much knowledge would be modified forever. The organization of
your societies would be deeply changed forever, in all fields of
activity. Power would become individual because you would see
for yourself that we are living.

Concretely, you would change the scale of your values ! The most
important thing for us is that humankind would form a single
family in front of this "unknown" we would represent ! Danger
would slowly melt away from your homes because you would
indirectly force the undesirable ones, those we name the "third
party,"to show up and vanish. You would all bear the same name
and share the same roots: Mankind. Later on, peaceful and
respectful exchanges would be thus possible if such is your
wish. For now, he who is hungry cannot smile, he who is fearful
cannot welcome us. We are sad to see men, women and children
suffering to such a degree in their flesh and in their hearts
when they bear such an inner light. This light can be your
future. Our relationships could be progressive.

Several stages of several years or decades would occur:
demonstrative appearance of our ships, physical appearance
beside human beings, collaboration in your technical and
spiritual evolution, discovery of parts of the galaxy. Every
time, new choices would be offered to you. You would then decide
by yourself to cross new stages if you think it necessary to
your external and inner well-being. No interference would be
decided upon unilaterally. We would leave as soon as you would
collectively wish that we do. Depending upon the speed to spread
the message across the world, several weeks, or even several
months will be necessary before our "great appearance," if such
is the decision made by the majority of those who will have used
their capacity to choose, and if this message receives the
necessary support. The main difference between your daily
prayers to entities of a strictly spiritual nature and your
current decision is extremely simple: we are technically
equipped! to materialize!

Why such a historical dilemma ?

We know that "foreigners" are considered as enemies as long as
they embody the "unknown." In a first stage, the emotion that
our appearance will generate will strengthen your relationships
on a worldwide scale. How could you know whether our arrival is
the consequence of your collective choice ? For the simple
reason that we would have otherwise been already there for a
long time at your level of existence. If we are not there yet,
it is because you have not made such a decision explicitly. Some
among you might think that we would make you believe in a
deliberate choice of yours so as to legitimate our arrival,
though this would not be true. What interest would we have to
openly offer you what you haven t got any access to yet, for the
benefit of the greatest number of you ? How could you be certain
that this is not yet another subtle maneuver of the "third
party" to better enslave you ? Because one always more
efficiently fights some! thing that is identified than the
contrary. Isn t the terrorism that corrodes you a blatant
example?

Whatever, you are the sole judge in your own heart and soul!
Whatever your choice, it would be respectable and respected. In
the absence of human representatives who could potentially
seduce you into error, you ignore everything about us as well as
from about those who manipulate you without your consent. In
your situation, the precautionary principle that consists in not
trying to discover us does no longer prevail. You are already in
the Pandora s box that the "third party" has created around you.
Whatever your decision may be, you will have to get out of it.

In the face of such a dilemma, of one ignorance compared with
another, you need to ask your intuition. Do you want to see us
with your own eyes, or simply believe what your thinkers say?
That is the real question! After thousands of years, one day,
this choice was going to be inevitable: choosing between two
unknowns. Why spread such a message among yourselves ? Translate
and spread this message widely. This action will affect your
future in an irreversible and historical way at the scale of
millennia; otherwise, it will postpone a new opportunity to
choose to several years later, at least one generation, if it
can survive. Not choosing, stands for undergoing other peoples
choice. Not informing others stands for running the risk of
obtaining a result that is contrary to one s expectations.
Remaining indifferent means giving up one s free will.

It is all about your future. It is all about your evolution. It
is possible that this invitation does not receive your
collective assent and that, because of a lack of information, it
will be disregarded. Nevertheless no individual desire goes
unheeded in the universe. Imagine our arrival tomorrow.
Thousands of ships. A unique cultural shock in mankind s
history. It will then be too late to regret about not making a
choice and spreading the message because this discovery will be
irreversible. We do insist that you do not rush into it, but do
think about it and decide!

The big media will not be necessarily interested in spreading
this message. It is therefore your task, as an anonymous yet an
extraordinary thinking and loving being, to transmit it. You are
still the architects of your own fate DO YOU WISH THAT WE SHOW
UP?"






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 14

                   Location Of Alleged Roswell Crash Sites

From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc90405@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:10:38 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 06:33:44 -0500
Subject: Location Of Alleged Roswell Crash Sites


Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in. :)

Over two years ago I asked for information about the location of
the alleged Roswell crash sites:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/jan/m16-007.shtml

As I recall, the best information was contained in an earlier
post by Glenn Campbell:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/jul/m22-012.shtml

As well as in an article entitled "Now Where Was It Those Aliens
Crashed?" located at:

http://members.aol.com/wmpb/CrossRos/

In addition, I received a number of very polite and helpful
responses to my earlier inquiry.

I had been "officially" off the list for awhile, but I haven't
been able to resist reading the list on the web.  Now I see
posts re: the location of the "cameraman's crash site," e.g.:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/oct/m30-
005.shtml

and, as I indicated above, I've been pulled back in. :)

So now to my questions....

Is there any one document or web page that sets forth the
specific location (GPS coordinates and/or directions with
milege) and provenance of *all* (six, or is it now seven?) of
the crash sites?

Is the precise location of the area searched by the SciFi
channel both known and agreed upon?  Is it agreed that the area
the SciFi channel searched is the correct one, or at least a
correct one?

Is the precise location of the "cameraman's" location both known
and agreed upon?

Is Roswell still considered the most promising or "hot" case, or
is it now Kecksburg?

Forgive me if this has all been discussed ad nauseum. I've been
fascinated by the Roswell incident for years, have spent a fair
amount of time and effort trying to understand it, and I've
been... frustrated. One thing that has always troubled and
frustrated me is the trouble identifying and locating the
various alleged crash sites.  I feel like there should be a web
page somewhere that says "here are the (six or seven) places you
might want to look."  I'm tempted to try to put something
together, but don't want to waste the time and effort if it has
already been done.

Respectfully, Charles Chapman

=====






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   Nov > Nov 14

                   CI: Cydonia And The Arcology Hypothesis

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:36:49 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 06:35:57 -0500
Subject: CI: Cydonia And The Arcology Hypothesis


Cydonian Imperative
11-13-03

Cydonia and the Arcology Hypothesis
by Mac Tonnies

Images and links:
http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 43)


The sprawling, dilapidated "starfish" of the D&M Pyramid,
revealed by the Mars Global Surveyor, was disillusioning to some
who expected to find a near-perfect pyramid. Seen up close, the
D&M retains some of the curious geometry suggested by Viking and
THEMIS images, but at least one of the presumed facets is
largely missing. But does this mean that we're observing a
purely geological formation?

[image]

The D&M Pyramid in Cydonia.

In "The Monuments of Mars," Richard Hoagland advanced the idea
that the pyramidal features in Cydonia were not mere artworks
left by inscrutable builders, but once-inhabited enclosures.
Taking his cue from architect Paolo Soleri, whose experimental
Arcosanti project employs organic forms in an attempt to
counteract urban sprawl, Hoagland described the Martian enigmas
in terms of arcologies, or "architectural ecologies."

[image]

Paolo Soleri's Arcosanti project, an experimental quasi-
arcology.

The Arcology Hypothesis posits that the large-scale morphologies
under investigation, such as the City Pyramid and D&M Pyramid
(and potentially the Face itself), were designed as functional
enclosures, perhaps to shelter a beleaguered Martian
civilization from some sort of planetary holocaust. This
hypothesis is attractive to proponents of the more general
Artificiality Hypothesis because it gives otherwise inexplicable
formations such as the D&M a purpose. Planetary SETI is largely
hostile to the notion of aesthetically driven "landscape art."
If features like the D&M are artificial constructions, either
constructed "brick by brick" or by the modification of existing
landforms, then the Arcology Hypothesis allows us to address
their builders in a utilitarian context.

It's edifying to consider what our own civilization would do if
faced with imminent global catastrophe. Would we attempt to
fortify existing cities against unstable conditions, or would we
seek out alternative means of coping? Fallout shelters such as
the one contained in Cheyenne Mountain indicate that radical
departures from traditional architecture would be called for. Of
course, fallout shelters such as those constructed in the 1950s
were designed for small numbers of temporary inhabitants. It's
likely that the features on Mars, if artificial, were built to
house thousands -- or hundreds of thousands -- in relative
comfort. Moreover, candidate arcologies such as the D&M may not
have been temporary. Environmental limitations such as food and
water supply may have resulted in their ultimate downfall, to
say nothing of worsening surface conditions (i.e., meteor
impacts, clearly observed in the Cydonia region).

[image]

Building-like formations atop a mesa in "downtown" Cydonia.
Image courtesy Keith Laney.

Critics of the Artificiality Hypothesis have seized on unlikely
arguments to dismiss the possibility that the features in
Cydonia are anything but wind-sculpted mesas and buttes. The
failure to find "roads" and "lawn furniture" (the latter
suggested albeit jokingly) has been taken by the mainstream Mars
science community to mean that Cydonia cannot possibly represent
the work of intelligence. This "terrestrial chauvinism" fails
utterly to take into account the Arcology Hypothesis, which
specifically calls for enclosed living spaces, not the
comparatively fragile acreage of New York, Los Angeles or Tokyo.

[image]

Dark partial square on the D&M Pyramid: evidence of
eroded surface structure?

The mainstream perspective also overlooks the fact that surface
detail indicative of below-ground architecture is likely to have
been heavily damaged or buried by millennia of drifting Martian
sands. Nevertheless, the base of the City Pyramid features
interesting angled "terraces." And one otherwise inconspicuous
mesa sports a row of bright rectilinear formations that look for
all the world like terrestrial-scale buildings. Perhaps these
are openings into a much more expansive subterranean
environment. The D&M Pyramid itself has an odd dark square
centered precisely on its southern facet.

[image]

A Soleri-like pyramidal arcology. What would such a structure
look like after thousands or millions of years of neglect?

Architects such as Soleri have designed insulated, megascale
arcologies as well as experimental open-air communities such as
Arcosanti. Hoagland notes that some of Soleri's more ambitious
designs take the form of vast pyramids and domes -- shapes not
unlike those that have puzzled Mars anomaly researchers.
Significantly, Soleri's designs call for extensive subsurface
infrastructure. It's conceivable that the majority of livable
space within the Cydonia structures is underground. While it
would be difficult if not impossible to prove or refute this
notion without on-site archaeologists, evidence of apparent
structural collapse such as the recessed (imploded?) "Fort"
provides circumstantial evidence that Cydonia may possess much
more anomalous real-estate than meets the eye. The large City
Mound, for example, is encircled by a shallow "moat" that
indicates potential underground enclosures.

[image]

The City Mound, with "moat" and satellite features.

Compare the City Mound to the prospective arcology design below,
notable for its reliance on below-ground architecture.

[image]

A city of the future?

Additional anomalous surface features, including a possible
second Cydonia "city" complex (discovered by Bob Harrison), lend
further support to the Arcology Hypothesis. While I freely admit
that comparing Martian features to terrestrial architecture is
inherently speculative, any determined search predicated on the
idea of prior habitation of Mars demands this sort of approach.
Until we have access to confirmed extraterrestrial ruins --
 whether on the Moon or elsewhere -- our own conceptual
habitations are all we have by which to evaluate the merits of
the Arcology Hypothesis.

-end-






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   Nov > Nov 14

                  More Problems For British Columbia Family

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:38:23 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 06:58:54 -0500
Subject: More Problems For British Columbia Family


Continuing Problems For Kelowna, B.C. Family.

Date: November 8th and 9th, 2003

Since July 31, 2003, after an UFO encounter, missing time and
disturbing episodes which followed, one of the women has
continued to have some medical problems. Cynthia continues to
have a constant feeling of pressure on her head and is becoming
worse as the days and weeks go by. This feeling of pressure has
now moved into her neck. On November 8, 2003 Cynthia, while at
her home, became cold as her body temperature dropped to 35.2 C.
She immediately called the hospital and talked to a nurse who
informed her that it sounded like hypothermia was setting in.
The color of Cynthia's skin started to change, to become almost
whitish/grey. She was freezing to the point where she felt
paralyzed and had major problems moving or walking. Also her
heart was beating really irregularly and she reports it was down
to 44 bpm. Cynthia's daughter is also experiencing an irregular
heart rate as well.

HBCC UFO Research Note: The average normal temperature is 98.6=B0F
(37=B0C). Cynthia's temperature dropped a little over 2 degrees
and no explanation has been given as to what has caused this to
happen. If your recorded rectal or ear temperature is less than
97=B0F (36.11=B0C), you have an abnormally low body temperature
(hypothermia). If your rectal or ear temperature is 95=B0F (35=B0C)
or lower, call a health professional immediately.

Information on taking your heartbeat measurement.

Your pulse is caused by your heart beating. As your heart beats
and forces blood through your body, you can feel a throbbing
sensation (the pulse) by putting your fingers over one of your
arteries at any point where the artery comes close to the
surface of your skin, such as your wrist, neck, or upper arm.
Counting your pulse rate is a simple way to estimate how fast
your heart is beating. Pulse rate measurements are often done by
a health professional as part of a physical examination or in an
emergency, but you can easily learn to measure your own pulse
rate as well.

A pulse is usually described in terms of its rate, which is the
number of beats per minute (bpm). However, the rhythm and
strength of the heartbeat can also be noted, as well as whether
the blood vessel feels hard or soft. An irregular rhythm, a weak
pulse, or a hard blood vessel may indicate a medical condition
that needs further evaluation.

The pulse rate is measured by counting the beats in a set period
of time (at least 15 to 20 seconds) and multiplying that number
to get the number of beats per minute. When you exercise, have a
fever, or are under stress, your heart rate usually speeds up to
meet your body's increased need for oxygen and nutrients carried
in the blood. As a result, your pulse rate normally varies from
minute to minute. Unless your pulse rate is being measured to
check your fitness level or in an emergency situation, it is
usually measured after you have rested for 10 minutes or more.
This measurement is called a resting pulse rate. It is an
accurate and simple assessment of the health of the heart and
circulatory system.

I always recommend to people if they feel there are medical
problems that they seek out a health professional.

On Saturday night Cynthia's daughter went to bed, after a short
period of time she started having an unusual and vivid dream
about being in some type of vehicle with two beings. She felt
that they were there to take her somewhere. The young girl felt
that where ever they were going wasn't the place to be. So in
her "dream" she jumped from the vehicle and landed on the ground
hitting her right leg and rolled along the ground for a short
distance. Cynthia's daughter, who also has been a victim of
these unwanted visits by beings from elsewhere, woke up Sunday
morning, November 9, 2003 with extreme pain in her knee.

Actually as she climbed out of her bed her leg folded up right
underneath her. She was fine the night before, hadn't been
involved in anything which may have caused the injury that I
have reported below. Cynthia's daughter's cartilage in her right
knee is ripped/torn and she has to be on crutches for a while
until it heals up. The doctor asked the girl if she had took
part in any sporting activities, or goofing around with friends,
"she replied no"! After they left the doctors office and some
time later the pain moved up into her thigh and is getting
worse. Cynthia is taking her daughter back to the doctor, or the
hospital to have her checked out again. Cynthia told me blood
tests will be done in hopes of determining what caused the drop
in Cynthia's body temperature, also checking to see if there are
any problems developing with her daughter. She also mentioned
that both her and her daughter are craving salted products and
are extremely thirsty. Both mother and daughter are totally
exhausted, as if the two of them hadn't slept for days. Cynthia
said, how can a person who is sleeping soundly in their bed wake
up in the morning with a torn cartilage in her right knee. I
have to agree with her. Very strange indeed.

HBCC UFO Note: I telephoned Cynthia Monday night to see how both
her and her daughter were feeling. Cynthia sounded extremely
tired, like she had no energy even to carry on a conversation.

I must say I find this to be very upsetting for me to hear what
has...... and is ....taking place with this family. I also am
going to try to get down to see them if the weather holds. There
is also more which has taken place, but due to this information
being of a personal nature, "I will not" be adding this to any
of my reports.

Cynthia mentioned that a couple of nights before November 8,
2003 her daughter woke up at 3:00 a.m. to a loud and very
strange and unusual sound coming from the orchard behind their
home. And the dogs in the area were making such a noise. She was
so frightened from hearing such a loud and weird sound that she
pulled the covers up over her head. She couldn't even give me an
example of what the noise sounded like as it was so strange.

The very next night after Cynthia's daughter heard this crazy
noise, Cynthia said she got woken up at 4:05 a.m. to the same
sound, or at least something she could not make any sense of.
Cynthia said the dogs were going crazy, the cows in the area
were acting up, so she got out of bed and moved onto the balcony
and looked toward the orchard. It was dark and she could see
nothing but could still hear the sound. She told me she started
clapping her hands, making noises herself and the strange sound
eventually stopped. Although the dogs still were acting up in
the area but since the sound had stopped, Cynthia decided to go
back to bed. However, no sooner did she get back under the
covers than the noise returned. She rolled over and tried to
block out the sound until she ended up going to sleep.

HBCC UFO Note: I tried to find out if abductees have even
experienced hypothermia after an encounter. After searching and
reading all kinds of matter I came up with nothing. So I
contacted Mr. Derrel Sims and Mr. Whitley Stieber to ask if they
had encountered anyone reporting hypothermia right after an
event. They both were so helpful. Also I contacted other
abductees but they also said they had never experienced
hypothermia after an abduction.

Of course this raises some questions which people were
interested in. From what I was told a lot of discussion has not
taken place on the idea of hypothermia after an abduction,
mainly because no one has reported this phenomena as taking
place. Some abductees report feeling very cold leading up to the
actual abduction, also feeling very cold just after it took
place. Many report a coldness when inside a craft to the point
they were shaking. Some of this I am sure is due to the fear one
must go through when being taken.

So why is this woman reporting hypothermia ? Is it due from
being in a very cold environment (on a craft), plus the fright
of the whole situation. Did this occur because she was dropped
off outside in a cold environment, which it was at the time of
this incident. Or was the hypothermia condition caused by a
medical problem no one is aware of right now. There always seems
to be more questions than answers. Maybe the blood tests, etc..
will show something. We will have to wait and see and pray for
some answers.

I will leave this off here for now. I would like to say this is
the end of this story, but I have my doubts. The good thing is I
keep in contact with Cynthia on a daily basis and have told her
if she just wants to chat, then call me anytime.

More News That I Just Received:

I just had an email from a lady who resides in Vernon, British
Columbia. She has informed me that a couple of business owners
were in Kelowna, British Columbia on November 8, 2003 and
watched green lights in the south west sky's over Kelowna. This
event took place the very same night problems started again for
the Kelowna family. I hope to have a full report on the sighting
of the green lights. Also I want everyone to know, no
information had been given out to anyone about what took place
on November 8, 2003 with Cynthia and her daughter. So again we
have green lights showing up and strange events taking place
with a close friend.

I can honestly say, in my opinion, there creatures that take
folks from the comfort of their homes are not here to give
humanity a gift, as some may suggest. They are here to
experiment, degrade and frighten everyone who comes in contact
with them. No one will ever convince me other wise.

Take good care out there, and please if anyone who has been
involved in an abduction and has ever experienced hypothermia
after the incident, I would really appreciate hearing from you.

Thank you

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm







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                     Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:38:12 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:00:32 -0500
Subject: Re:  Lunar Image Anomaly - Balaskas


>From: Dan Bright <ufo@zaziork.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:03:33 -0000
>Subject: Lunar Image Anomaly

<snip>

>I am currently in the process of soliciting analysis and comment
>from several astronomers and astronomical institutions of an
>image that shows an object passing over the lunar disk, as
>photographed from the West Midlands (UK). The image also appears
>to show an associated shadow cast on the lunar surface.

>If anyone on List knows of any astronomers who may be willing to
>take a look, may I request that you point me (or them) in the
>right direction?

>I'd also like to call upon the wealth of experience represented
>on this List, and ask if anyone here has observed anything
>similar.

>The case file can be viewed here:

>http://zaziork.com/theunexplained/case_files/case_008/main.htm

<snip>

Hi Dan!

If these two identical looking darks spots are not something
such as camera/image artifacts or defects - which I suspect they
are - then they must be very small objects in the Earth's
atmosphere and close to the observer for the following reasons:

1) The two spots are as dark as the black background night sky.
If these two objects were in space, the sunlight reflecting off
their surfaces would make them at least as bright as the dark
mara or "seas" of the Moon seen in the background. If these two
objects were instead in the Earth's atmosphere, then they would
be black since being in Earth's nightside they would not be
illuminated by direct sunlight at all.

2) One of these two spots cannot be the shadow of the other on
the surface of the Moon (the lunar phase is just after full)
since the object would be much brighter than its shadow. There
are many such examples of this in photos taken by amateur
astronomers of the bright Galilean satellites and their darker
shadows on the upper cloud layers of Jupiter. Also, because the
Sun is not a point light source but an extended round luminious
object, the shadow would show some evidence of an umbra and
penumbra and look very different from the object. It doesn't.

3) If these two spots were temporarily in lunar orbit, they
would be present long enough for many more pictures to have been
taken with the digital camera used. Do these other images exist,
and if not, why not? If these two spots were satellites in Earth
orbit, distance aircraft or even bats or bugs flying in
formation, they would have crossed the face of the Moon so
quickly that it seems very unlikely that the witness (the son)
would have had enough time to position his hand held digital
camera and taken a quick picture of these (or some other
object?) he claims to have seen moving across the Moon.

For the above reasons, I think we can rule out the large UFO or
meteoroid in space as the explanation for these two spots that
appear in this single picture.

That said, there are other more compelling images of a
massive(?) UFO in the vicinity of the Moon taken during the
flight of Apollo 16. These images along with the full details
can be seen in the paper by Hiroshi Nakamura published in the
lastest issue (Fall, 2003 - Volume 17, Number 3) of the 'Journal
of Scientific Exploration'. I still think this UFO is a window
reflection of something from inside of the Command Module...


Nick Balaskas

Physics and Astronomy
York University
Toronto






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                   Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 21:18:26 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:03:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Sparks


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 21:06:38 +0000
>Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:35:57 -0500
>Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Rimmer


>>From: Brad Sparks
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 20:31:18 EST
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update [was: Trindade]

>>I see no response to the fact that Noguez proposes the
>>pseudoscientific notion [that a double exposure could subtract
>>lt and create a darker object in the Trindade photos.]

>I wonder if this in fact such a big issue as you think. I have
>to admit that I'm not a photographic expert, and this is just
>off the top of my head, so I'm not putting money on it!

>We're assuming that the sky, as shown in the published Trindade
>pictures, is quite light, with a darker grey 'object' against
>it. This might not have been the case.

>Let us assume that a hoaxer first photographs a UFO image which
>is very dark against a grey background, then photographs a
>landscape over it. If the sky in the real landscape is darker
>than the background to the image, the resultant photograph will
>show a sky which is lighter than the real sky at the time, and
>will still show a UFO darker than the doubly-exposed sky, but
>lighter than the original photographed image.

>John Rimmer


John,

Well now you have a scientific argument to pose. Yeah don't put
any money on it, here's why:

The problem with that technique is that the ENTIRE PHOTO becomes
lighter too, the island, the ship, and the sky all have that
LIGHT ADDED from your "grey background" ("grey" still contains
LIGHT, whether grey or not, so that the fake "UFO" can show up
against it in contrast).

But where is the light from this hypothetical "grey background"
double-exposure of yours? It has to superimpose onto the
Trindade island and ship scenes because it is simple physics --
 light adds to light in photography and CANNOT SUBTRACT LIGHT.
 Yet the Trindade island scenes contain EXTREMELY DARK features
and so do the shadows of the ship's rope cables (as Barauna
stated he had underexposed the shots, and for good reason since
he was about to take shots of the launch being hoisted in which
would have been brightly lit compared to the background). Your
theorized "grey background" cannot add more light than is seen
the darkest portions of the film, yet the darkest parts are
almost pitch-black! The darkest parts of the film put an
extremely tight constraint on the amount of light that a double
exposure can possibly add, and in fact it makes it an
impossibility, as I will explain below.

Let's get quantitative here: I scanned in first-generation
prints from the negatives over tens of millions of pixels (so my
sampling is abundant) on the widest possible grayscale, which
for simplicity we can say ranges from 0 to 10 dark to light.
 The UFO image's darkest spots are at about level 6, the
surrounding sky is at about level 8, and it's about the same on
each of the four photos so I can discuss them collectively.
 Thus the sky near the UFO image must have been at about
brightness level 6 before the double exposure, and then very
simply your "grey background" HAD TO ADD 2 to add up to the
result of sky brightness 8 that we now see around the UFO image
(and that assumes unreasonably that the fake "UFO" image had
parts as black as the blackest charcoal, which is nonsense, even
black paper reflects around 10% of incident light). So 6 + 2 =
8. Do you follow me to this point?

But your "grey background" MUST ADD THE SAME 2 levels of
brightness to the ENTIRE PHOTO if this is the result of a simple
double exposure. Do you understand that? Yet portions of the
island and the shadowed ropes of the ship are so dark they go
down to blackest black at less than 0.5 on this grayscale
density, meaning they seem to be near the fog density of the
film or NEARLY UNEXPOSED TO LIGHT -- so where is your theorized
"grey background" and all of its 2 levels of light??? These
dark areas on the photos at less than 0.5 density could not
possibly exist after your "grey background" double exposure had
added 2 density units of light to them -- these areas would be
at least level 2 brightness afterward. Do you see that? Thus a
simple double exposure in these Trindade photos is a complete
physical impossibility.

Nor is there any possibility of a tilted or vignetted "grey
background" that is dark on one side (to be double exposed over
the dark island scene) but light on the other (sky) side with a
fake "UFO" image in the middle -- the sky density is the same on
all parts of the photos all around the UFO, there is no
preferential shading or "vignette" effect like that. And in the
first and last photos there IS NO "SKY SIDE" OR "ISLAND SIDE" of
the frames in the first place. The island does not even
simplistically cover the bottom half of the photo but is way off
to the left side on those two photos so this tilted grayscale
"grey background" could not possibly work. You may not realize
this but because all published versions of the Trindade photos
stupidly crop out the foreground ship features of railings and
darkly shadowed ropes you don't see that in Photos 2 and 3 the
UFO image is encircled on 3 sides by island, ocean and ship
features, and nearly so in the other shots. This background-
foreground surrounding of the UFO images prevents any vignetting
in a double-exposure as I just described.

To sum up, it is still a physical impossibility for the UFO
image to be darker than the surrounding sky in any double
exposure in the Trindade photos (I add that qualifier because of
course OTHER photos could be hoaxed by double exposure).

But you can have a fake "UFO" image as dark as you want in a
photomontage, with none of these photometric problems of a
double exposure, just paste on the darkest fake "UFO" image you
want onto pictures of Trindade and the ship! It's still a
physical impossibility as I explained previously but at least
you don't have photometric problems.


Brad Sparks







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                Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:38:59 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:50:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Hale


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:08:14 -0000
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

>Yes, I'm a convicted drug dealer. If you want specifics it was
>approximately September 1976 and the substance was Amphetamine
>Sulphate (a crap drug I have to say, but I bought some and sold
>it on). That was 27 years ago, before many on this List were
>even born. I'm not ashamed or embarrased by it, nor has it ever
>been a secret. I have always, and will always, continue to use
>psychedelics.


Hi,

How should this List view the words of a convicted drug dealer?

And does time allow for closure on such charges?


Roy







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               Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Burns

From: Max Burns <max.burns@ntlworld.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 05:45:36 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 08:10:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Burns


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:07:04 -0600
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

>>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:53:14 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

>>>From: Max Burns <max.burns@ntlworld.com>
>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 17:41:19 -0000
>>>Subject: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

<snip>

>>Having read the article in some depth I can honestly say that
>>all right-minded ufologists will want to acquire it immediately.
>>As a text book example of how an obsessive personality can
>>invent something our of nothing it's excellent.

>"As a text book example of how an obsessive personality can
>invent something [out] of nothing [,] it's excellent."

Andy, I do not have an obsessive anything, I have simply put all
the facts in one place at one time. Many of the facts were
retrieved from this very list as you know as well as many other
printed sources.

>Presuming this is what you meant ... all we have here, still, is
>your uncited armchair proclamation on a piece of cited work,
>obviously not your own, with which you are not in agreement. It
>is work with which you seem more than willing to take unethical
>liberties... perhaps because there are not enough references to
>flying lighthouses and gassy pelicans?

>>However, instead of wasting your money on buying it, I'll have
>>it scanned by Thursday and will happily send free copies on
>>request.

>In one stroke you obliterate a copyright and provide a mechanism
>for keeping researchers from an honorable reward for their
>efforts... pretty cheesy, sir, forgetting how wrong it is.....

Alfred, I informed Mr Roberts that he did not have my permission
or the publishers permission to do this. But this type of
behaviour is typical as to many other things that have occurred
as outlined in my article. Mr Roberts is doing this to try and
stop a man who has self-published his magazine, out of his own
pocket, from getting any return. Andy as a published author this
is just more disgusting behaviour.

Shame on you.

Another reason to distribute to people is so that Roberts can
make a big joke out of it by saying to people its so wrong I
will send it to you.

I hope that many people will read this article you may disagree
on some aspects you may not. I have allready discussed this
article with Andy Roberts. My position is if you dont like the
content you should have thought about that before you behaved
the way you have and are now.

>The reader can imagine what the CSICOPian author's attitude
>would be given this kind of arrogant and mean-spirited literary
>piracy.

Well said,

Max Burns








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                  Re: Punch Biopsy Photos at A.I.C. - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 02:17:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 08:23:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Punch Biopsy Photos at A.I.C. - Velez


>From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:18:52 -0500
>Subject: Punch Biopsy Photos at A.I.C.

>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:01:59 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:17:07 -0500
>>Subject: Punch Biopsy Photos at A.I.C. [was: Newly-Posted

>>>From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 14:50:38 -0600
>>>Subject: Re: Newly-Posted Photos at A.I.C.

>>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>>Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 20:23:26 -0500
>>>>Subject: Newly-Posted Photos at A.I.C.

><snip>

>Thank you for sharing the URL with the very interesting
>photographs of the various scars, bruises, and 'scoop-mark'
>scars. I know they bring the reality of this phenomenon to the
>forefront of people's minds when viewing them. It is a good
>reminder of just how _real_ this phenomenon is for the people
>experiencing it - the abductees.


Hi Katarina,

That was kind of the point of the exercise. There have been so
many lame and dismissive threads about abductees recently that I
thought the timing was right for a little reminder about how
real and often times physically painful the phenomena can be for
those who have to learn to cope/live with it.

It's easy to theorize, sit in judgement and pontificate about
things that are distant (at more than arm's length) from you.
It's a whole other ball of wax when it is happening _to_you_
and your family.

Two different kinds of 'real'. Know what I mean? It's easy for
those outside of the experience to think that we must all be
head cases. Actually I don't blame them. If it wasn't happening
to me, I think I'd feel the same way.

It's the same with UFOs in many cases. People become convinced
that UFOs are *real, (*physical aircraft) only after they have
seen one for themselves. Before that... people who see UFOs are
all nuts. Comprende?

The pictures I posted are a challenge and a reality check for
anyone who wishes to simply dismiss out of hand, or explain
'all' of our reports, as being the result of a purely
psychological phenomenon. Any 'psych' explanation must address
and take into account (be able to explain) the attendant
physical manifestations. Otherwise the theory is inadequate and
fails to address the 'whole' of the phenomena being
presented/reported.

Are these things from 'outer space'? Who knows? Is the
phenomena real? You bet. I'm neither crazy, hallucinating, or a
liar. I don't have the luxury of 'doubt' nor am I able to
pretend I know enough to tell others that what has happened to
them- didn't happen. I leave that to all the smug, 'holier than
thou' armchair experts who have never had any _first hand_
experience with the phenomenon.

Thank you for your contribution to the thread Katarina. Always
good to hear from you.


Warm regards,

John Velez





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               Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Burns

From: Max Burns <max.burns@ntlworld.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 06:03:04 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 08:13:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Burns


>From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:02:19 -0000
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

>>From: Max Burns <max.burns@ntlworld.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 17:41:19 -0000
>>Subject: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

>>I am pleased to announce the release of the latest issue of
>>Dr Larry O'Hara's magazine "Notes From The Borderland".

><snip>

>>We proudly publish The Usual Suspects:Anatomy of a
>>disinformation campaign in ufology, by veteran ufologist Max
>>Burns. Max reveals the extreme depths some in ufology sank to in
>>order to shut him up concerning the March 1997 Howden moor ufo.

>>One usual suspect David Clarke - formerly of the Sheffield Star
>>newspaper, already discredited for disgusting reporting of the
>>1989 Hillborough tragedy and relentlessly targeting framed
>>anarchist Mark Barnsley. Another is convicted drug
>>supplier/armchair ufologist Andy Roberts

><snip>

>Much as I've had my differences with Clarke and Roberts, you
>have to be very sure of your ground before you describe somebody
>as a convicted drug supplier.

>On another UK list Andy Roberts has recently admitted to being a
>longstanding user of psychedelic substances, and has expressed
>the view that all drugs (including hard drugs) should be legal.
>Is this what you're referring to?

>If not, and if you stand by your description of Andy as a
>convicted drug supplier, I hope you can back up your statement.
>If you can't, I suggest you withdraw the remark.


Nick,

I am completley certain I have all the press cuttings from my
trip to the Colindale Newspaper archive in London, researching
my article.


Thanks for the good advice,

Max







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                       Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 02:23:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:29:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Velez


>From: Dan Bright <ufo@zaziork.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:03:33 -0000
>Subject: Lunar Image Anomaly


>I am currently in the process of soliciting analysis and comment
>from several astronomers and astronomical institutions of an
>image that shows an object passing over the lunar disk, as
>photographed from the West Midlands (UK). The image also appears
>to show an associated shadow cast on the lunar surface.

>If anyone on List knows of any astronomers who may be willing to
>take a look, may I request that you point me (or them) in the
>right direction?

>I'd also like to call upon the wealth of experience represented
>on this List, and ask if anyone here has observed anything
>similar.

>The case file can be viewed here:

>http://zaziork.com/theunexplained/case_files/case_008/main.htm

>If anyone wishes to take a more thorough look, please get in
>touch and I'll email a copy of the original (full size) image
>file to you.

Hi Dan,

Nick Balaskas is an astronomer that reads this List. Hopefully,
Nick will chime in and comment on the pix. As an amateur
astronomer I can tell you that it is likely that the "objects"
in the photo (if they are 'objects' and not aberrations on the
negative or print) are located within the earth's atmosphere and
not on the moon. If they are objects flying over the surface of
the moon they would have to be _miles_ in diameter to appear so
large against the moon (from that distance) in the photo.

Most likely they were between the moon and the earth and well
within our own atmosphere. I'm sure Nick will confirm my
estimation/statements.

There is some footage floating around that was taken by a
Japanese astronomer that shows a really large disc shaped object
flying over the surface of the moon and casting a shadow on the
ground as it traverses the surface. Footage that has never been
shown to have been hoaxed. I have seen it several times but I
cannot recall precisely where or on what program I might have
seen it. Anybody?

Nick... are you monitoring this thread?


Regards,

John Velez







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                    Re: Our Capacity To Chose - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:29:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:18:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Our Capacity To Chose - Lehmberg


>From: Victor Viggiani <zland@sympatico.ca>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:42:40 -0500
>Subject: Our Capacity To Chose

>Disclosure Dialogue -

>List:

>What is written below was passed along to me by a friend. Who
>the original author(s) may be or from where they come, I know
>not. Whoever did write the piece and where ever they're from,
>they have given the UFO/ETI issue much thought. They have
>captured the essence of the geo-political mess we are in and the
>decisions we may need to make to find a way out.

>Despite its origin, it raises provocative questions,
>crystallizes issues in a rather unique manner and presents
>perspectives few of us entertain with any frequency.

>Have a read...

<snip>

Presuming, for a moment, the documents verity for the sake of
argument, and whatever the genesis of it (forgetting the typos,
seeming ability to speak in only one language, and engaging but
human nuanced writing) the strange text speaks to the importance
of the individual in the elevation of our aggregate species and
eschews the mainstream agencies, institutions, and governments a
programmed and programmable humankind has inflicted upon it:

"There are two ways to establish a cosmic contact with another
civilization: via its standing representatives or directly with
individuals without distinction. The first way entails fights of
interests, the second way brings awareness."

The author seems to be saying that 'Individuals' can achieve
intellectual, spiritual, and emotional quality, these quality
individuals can collect into formidable teams, and it is the
collections of individual human beings in these quality teams
that impact favorably on the rising and advancing of aggregate
human spirit... providing a larger reality that we can make,
pretty much, for ourselves. The individual (as I've written for
years) seems key.....

Accepting, for argument, that this piece _was_ contributed by
EBE, I take th at moment of reflection suggested and answer (in
as much as I believe that "blissful ignorance" is a _myth_ and a
-mine field- and continued ignorance does _not_ equal continued
bliss...) that they should "show up", now, in fact, and do so
with all deliberate speed! An alternative course of action would
be to wait for Mr. Oberg's take on it here in this forum, and
then do (or think) the thing exactly opposite (just to be sure).
<g>

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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                     Re: A 1957 Wave Comparison - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 00:46:34 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:14:35 -0500
Subject: Re: A 1957 Wave Comparison - Hatch


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:42:52 -0700
>Subject: Re: A 1957 Wave Comparison

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:25:37 -0800
>>Subject: Re: A 1957 Wave Comparison

<snip>

>>>Is there a mini-wave for Italy?

>>Filtering for Italian cases only, there is a definite mini-wave
>>in 1978 according to my data. Look at these annual counts.

>>1960-1970 0 to 10 cases per year.
>>1971-1976 7 to 21 cases/year
>>1977  40 cases
>>1978  125 cases
>>1979  37 cases
>>1980-1999 0 to 8 cases/year

>>This overlooks the 1954 wave of course, but over 40 years, 1978
>>stands out unmistakably.

>>For all years combined, Italian sightings are 2 or 3 times as
>>frequent in the second half of the year (July-Dec) as they are
>>in the first 6 months.

>Thanks for the breakout on the mini-wave, as usual these 125
>cases in 1978 are only the tip of the iceberg. There were dozens
>of reports, anecdotal and in the Italian newspapers, just in the
>region around Naples.

>I forwarded all I could find to Charles Bowen, editor of Flying
>Saucer Review at that time. I didn't keep any photocopies and
>later learned from Gordon Creighton (long time editor of FSR,
>who died July 16, 2003), that Charles Bowen's wife after her
>husband's death destroyed the amassed files and correspondence
>stored in the barn. What a loss!

>One peculiar story was related to me by an Italian Air Force
>warrant officer who I worked with in the off-line
>encryption/decryption section. He says his girlfriend, a
>pianist, would talk of the aliens in their underground base
>under Mount Vesuvio. She would go into a trance state, say the
>aliens were calling her, and then take off. Odd.

Hello Terry:

What a tragedy! You would think Mrs. Bowen would know any number
of qualified people who could take all those materials off her
hands. I just can't understand that.

If I were left a garage full of religious materials, or
something similar I had no use for, I could call up the most
relevant and qualified scholar or clergyman to take it for the
sake of those who _are_ deeply interested.

Is this some sort of revenge? I'm at a loss here.

As for my records, I can only put in the data I have. Filtering
out what look (to me) like weaker cases, I would naturally have
a minority of them in any case.


Thanks for the info

- Larry






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              Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:57:55 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:25:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Roberts


>From: Max Burns <max.burns@ntlworld.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 06:03:04 -0000
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

Pilgrims,

Whilst I have no issues whatsoever with Max and his muppets
discussing my beliefs on drugs or my convictions, I fear he is
using this as a smokescreen to disguise the real message of his
article (which was in fact ghost written by Larry O'Hara). If
ebk is happy to let the politics of recreational drug use and
their transient, culture sensitive, laws discussed on this List
I'm happy to do so. And I have a lot of factual stuff to say on
the matter because I've been involved for 30 years and work
professionally in the area.

I rather hope, however, that he'd prefer to stick to the
mechanics of ufology, however bizarre it may be.

To sum Max's problem up, he's miffed because:

*  His 'investigation' of the Sheffield Incident was a mish mash
of conjecture and nonsense

*  He couldn't cope with the fact that Dave Clarke did a
definitive investiagtion which elicited different statements
from witnesses

*   We sent him on a merry dance round Derbyshire's Peak
District as part of a controlled experiment (hoax, for the
dullards among you) - which he is now desparately claiming he
knew about all along, yeah, right!

Miffed, bitter, and wanting revenge.

Some of you may not like how Max was treated. Tough. If self-
styled investigators can't solve simple hoaxes then there is no
point in believing a word they say. Like it or lump it as we say
in these parts. I've done it before, since and will be doing it
again. One day those who have fallen for these hoaxes will be
revealed in a book, which will expose just how ufology works.
Funny, though,  that Max's chum Matthew Williams is a na
ccomplished and admitted crop circle hoaxer but that, somehow,
is 'art'. I prefer my 'art' to include people, not crops, up
close up and personal.

Anyway...

*  Sometime during Max's investigation he was arrested,
convicted and sentenced for possession with intent to supply a
large amount of Ecstasy, as part of a huge investigation by
South Yorkshire police.

*  Max, at the time, claimed that he had been set up - by Dave
Clarke and myself and is now claiming, indeed the bulk of his
article is built on this canard, that we are working for the
government. Read that bit again. Do _you_ believe that?

*  So, let me re-iterate that. Max Burns is claiming, and
genuinely believes, with no evidence whatsoever, that two
prominent UK ufologists are 'agents' working for the government.
He's cleverly confected this argument out of several unrelated
events and incidents all loosely connected to the Sheffield
Incident.

*  Fundamentally it's all down to jealousy because he wasn't
allowed to build the Sheffield case into something it wasn't
(but which he would have liked it to be). When he was nicked for
dealing E (which in fact turned out not to be E, but a lesser
drug, therefore making Max a rip off merchant as well as a
convicted dealer) he latched on to this as a form of martyrdom
'THEY' were onto him and he needed silencing and what better way
to do it than a drug set up. Well, yeah, if you want to believe
that. Max can't just accept that he was a drug addled dealer
with a small time interest in ufology who got caught. All his
nonsense about appealing against the conviction is just so much
hot air. It isn't happening Max. You were nicked, it had nothing
to with ufology, you did your time. Trying to find scapegoats
either for inept investigation or for breaking the law is purely
escapism on Max's part.

*  I am vigorously breaching his copyright because if he chooses
to write about me I reserve the right to let people know about
it. If he or Lardy O'Hardly have a problem with this I suggest
they take me to court. They won't of course as they would far
rather bleat about being victims than actually _do_ anything.

Max replied to Nick Pope, about my drug conviction - and stick
with this because it's relevant.

>I am completley certain I have all the press cuttings from my
>trip to the Colindale Newspaper archive in London, researching
>my article.

And how do you think Max knew either about my convictions or
which newspaper they were in? Easy, when I knew he was
practising his writing skills I told him exactly what I'd been
done for and where to find it. Otherwise he wouldn't ahve known
anything. Presenting given facts as some form of investigative
coup is rather sad, but there you are.


Happy Trails

Andy







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                    Re: Our Capacity To Chose - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:24:18 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:21:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Our Capacity To Chose - Hamilton


>From: Victor Viggiani <zland@sympatico.ca>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:42:40 -0500
>Subject: Our Capacity To Chose


>What is written below was passed along to me by a friend. Who
>the original author(s) may be or from where they come, I know
>not. Whoever did write the piece and where ever they're from,
>they have given the UFO/ETI issue much thought. They have
>captured the essence of the geo-political mess we are in and the
>decisions we may need to make to find a way out.

>Despite its origin, it raises provocative questions,
>crystallizes issues in a rather unique manner and presents
>perspectives few of us entertain with any frequency.

<snip>

Victor,

Who Wrote the Message?

The author of the message is Jean Ederman, a French pilot, air
traffic controller and airport manager, who claims to have been
given the Message by a visiting group of 'benevolent ETs' after
'mentally projecting himself into their space'. On his website:

www.geocities.com/changetheworld_now/index.html

he describes a number of experiences he has had with visiting ET
races over the years as well as the experience that produced the
Message: "after having learned how to mentally project myself to
a place in the presence of benevolent ETs, I received the
following message on behalf of their hierarchy."

Found on: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-7.htm

Beware of ETs giving messages, especially on behalf of their
hierarchy...

Bill H






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                          Secrecy News -- 11/14/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:40:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:05:38 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/14/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 101
November 14, 2003


**      CIA LOOKS AT THE FUTURE OF BIOWEAPONS
**      DOE ERODES THE FACA OPEN MEETING LAW
**      IAEA REPORT ON IRAN
**      SECRET SESSIONS OF CONGRESS


CIA LOOKS AT THE FUTURE OF BIOWEAPONS

As bad as the threat of biological weapons may seem-- it's
actually worse.

That is the upshot of a summary report prepared by the Central
Intelligence Agency based on a workshop with non-governmental
scientists held last January.

"Growing understanding of the complex biochemical pathways that
underlie life processes has the potential to enable a class of
new, more virulent biological agents engineered to attack
distinct biochemical pathways and elicit specific effects...,"
the document stated.

A copy of the two page CIA report was obtained by Secrecy News.

See "The Darker Bioweapons Future," Office of Transnational
Issues, Directorate of Intelligence, November 3, 2003:

http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/bw1103.pdf

No less interesting that the document itself is the tangled
process that produced it.

The CIA, in a becoming act of humility, reached out to
biological scientists early this year for insight and advice. It
then squandered much of the good will it had engendered by
informing the scientists that the conclusions of their open
meeting would be classified. But then, facing criticism, the
Agency reversed itself, belatedly yielding the present document.
(Secrecy News, 4/02/03)

"CIA proactively reached out to the scientific community, but
instead of getting credit for it, it got slammed," according to
one non-governmental participant who said critics were mistaken
to believe CIA was acting in bad faith.

"I hope that the scientific and security communities have both
learned something from this experience and will continue to make
the effort to work together," he said today. "We'll have to do a
lot more of it in the future."

For background on the earlier dispute see "CIA openness report
to be classified?" by Peg Brickley, The Scientist, April 7,
2003:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20030407/03


DOE ERODES THE FACA OPEN MEETING LAW

Congress has yielded to pressure from the Department of Energy
to relax the open meeting requirements of the 1972 Federal
Advisory Committee Act.

After closed door meetings of the DOE advisory committee on the
National Ignition Facility were successfully challenged by the
Natural Resources Defense Council and Tri-Valley Cares, DOE
decided the rules needed to be changed.

Congress acquiesced in language inserted into the 2004 Defense
Authorization Act.

The details and background of the change were first reported by
Ian Hoffman in "DOE May Sidestep Open Government Law," Oakland
Tribune,
November 13:

http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82~1865~1763595,00.html


IAEA REPORT ON IRAN

A November 10 report from the International Atomic Energy Agency
found that Iran has been secretly pursuing proscribed nuclear
technologies for the past 18 years, in violation of its Nuclear
Nonproliferation Treaty commitments.

A copy of the explosive new report, which has not been formally
released to the public, was obtained and posted by the Natural
Resources Defense Council (in a large PDF file) here:

http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/iaeairan.asp


SECRET SESSIONS OF CONGRESS

The occasional practice of holding closed door sessions of
Congress is surveyed in "Secret Sessions of Congress: A Brief
Historical Overview" by Mildred Amer, Congressional Research
Service, updated August 5, 2003:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RS20145.pdf


_______________________________________________

Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691







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                      Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Bright

From: Dan Bright <ufo@zaziork.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:48:28 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:05:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Bright


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 02:23:23 -0500
>Subject: Re: Lunar Image Anomaly

>>From: Dan Bright <ufo@zaziork.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:03:33 -0000
>>Subject: Lunar Image Anomaly

>Hi Dan,
>Nick Balaskas is an astronomer that reads this List. Hopefully,
>Nick will chime in and comment on the pix.

Hi John, Nick, and other kind respondents,

Very many thanks for your analyses and comments, I very much
appreciate it. I have also now heard back from a NASA
representative, who similarly theorised that the objects may be
jet aircraft. I'll keep the website file updated with any new
comment/analyses/hypothesis as and when received.

Thanks again.


All the best,

Dan Bright

www.TheUnexplained.info






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   Nov > Nov 14

                  More Reports On Light Beam & Object In BC

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:30:22 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:03:39 -0500
Subject: More Reports On Light Beam & Object In BC


Witnesses are still reporting an event which took place in the
skies from Kamloops to Kimberley, British Columbia.

I may be a bit off on the count, but I believe there have been
over 200 reports that have come in to me over this unusual
event, plus the object which was witnessed minutes before the
beam of light showed up.

I have even had some from the Kelowna area saying that nothing
took place, nothing in newspapers, on radio, etc., about this
incident.

Well, I would say to them, open their darned eyes. Newspapers
carried the story on this and other events in the area, radio
also carried the story. What this object or beam of light was,
is anyone's guess right now as I cannot come up with an answer,
neither can the professionals. So it remains a mystery.

Below is another report from a kind person who wanted to tell
me what he witnessed.

-----

Kelowna, British Columbia

August, 2003

Dear Sir,

I was just visiting your web site and I must say what I read not
only shocked me, it sent shivers up and down my spine! I felt I
had to contact you and tell you about my experience with the
sighting of the mysterious beam of light that was observed back
in July and again three weeks later, which is when I witnessed
this odd phenomena.

It was fairly late in the evening as I recall because I was
already in bed watching T.V. when all of a sudden I caught
something out of the corner of my eye.I turned my head and out
of my bedroom window I saw this very bright beam of  light
hovering in the sky going from northwest to southeast at what I
would judge to be at least 20,000 ft.or better in altitude. It
looked to be about 100 ft. in width and stretched across a long
portion of the sky.This beam of light was very much like what
you would see from a neon tube in that it had a very distinct
outline,much like a very long rectangle. It looked like it might
be rotating slowly, but it was very hard to tell really, because
of the brightness of the object. I say object because that is
the best way I can describe what it was I saw.

The out line of this beam was very distinct in that within it,
it was so bright and yet all around it, it was a very dark clear
night.You could see the stars above and below and I saw a plane
flying at a high altitude[much higher and further away] off to
the southwest, travelling from west to east, as is not unusual
any night of the week.

This sighting was unlike any thing I have ever witnessed before
in my lifetime. I have lived up north and out on the prairies,
and have seen the northern lights on hundred"s of occasions and
I can tell you this was definitely not what I saw that night!
This beam of light, for want of a better term sat stationary in
the sky for a few seconds then seemed to blink out from south to
north, like it was being drawn back to a point of origin. The
best way I can describe what I mean by this is it was much like
what I remember seeing in the movie 'Star Wars', when Luke drew
his light saber sword. I know that seems funny, but it is the
only way to describe what I saw that night.

I hollered for my room-mate to come and see it. By the time he
got to my room this thing was gone, but he would certainly tell
you I was quite agitated and excited by what I had just
witnessed. I could not believe my eyes, but I said to the roomy
"there is no way anyone who was outside at that time of night
could possibly have missed it!".

We watched the news on our local station for the next few nights
in hopes someone else may have seen it, but nothing came up and
so I never gave it another thought as I have seen many strange
things in the night sky over the years I have lived here in
Kelowna; many times with other people, but have never reported
anything before because I did not want the attention. So when I
came across your website tonight you can understand how it hit
me to find out I was not alone! I just got a computer last week
and am only now learning how to use it, but I had to write you
when I saw the reports on your sight. I had no idea you even
existed until tonight.

Anyway, I will be watching the sky more often now as I know I am
not alone in wondering what is going on up there.

Thank you to this witness for the report.

Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm







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             Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:06:06 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:48:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - McGonagle


>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:38:59 -0000
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

>>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:08:14 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

<snip>

>How should this List view the words of a convicted drug dealer?

>And does time allow for closure on such charges?


Personally, I think Andy's attitude is totally irresponsible in
the matter of drugs. However, Andy has not promoted any
connection between his chemical escapism and ufology. That
honour goes to to a more recently convicted drugs dealer, Max
Burns. He introduced it as a lame excuse for being "fitted up"
by the nasty MIB from the MOD because he knew too much about
flying saucers. At least Andy is honest about his past (and even
his current) narcotic activity.

On a personal level, I can forgive a youthful error, but I fail
to understand how or why Andy maintains his habit. If I were a
prospective employer, especially in the professional drug abuse
field, he would be crossed off the list of applicants as soon as
he expressed his views. Andy is however (AFAIK) under no
obligation to disclose his previous conviction, un-like Max
Burns.

Seeking a weakness to gain retribution on Andy for "conspiring"
with Dave Clarke to expose the flaws in his "big UFO case", Max
has seen fit to introduce the topic into ufology yet again,
dredging up an offence which took place 27 years ago.
Unfortunately for Max, Andy doesn't give a toss.

Max's standard excuse for not disclosing his evidence that he
was "fitted up" is that he is currently in the process of
appeal. Well, it would not compromise that appeal if he were to
divulge the name of the soliicitor representing his case, the
firm that they work for, the court with which the notice of
appeal is lodged, and the reference number. These details could
then be validated by some neutral person known to and trusted by
all and confirmed on list. I would not be at all surprised
however if this did not happen, and that the appeal is as much a
fabrication as his "fit up" story is.

Regarding closure over time, I would say that once a sentence is
spent (Max's won't be until 10 years after his conviction I
believe) _and_ the offender expresses genuine remorse for their
actions, I would happily give them the benefit of the doubt.
Unfortunately, this is not the case with either Andy or Max.

Well, you did ask.....


Regards,

Joe







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   Nov > Nov 15

                       Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:05:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 10:31:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Velez


>From: Dan Bright <ufo@zaziork.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:48:28 -0000
>Subject: Re: Lunar Image Anomaly

>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 02:23:23 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Lunar Image Anomaly

<snip>

>>Nick Balaskas is an astronomer that reads this List. Hopefully,
>>Nick will chime in and comment on the pix.

>Very many thanks for your analyses and comments, I very much
>appreciate it. I have also now heard back from a NASA
>representative, who similarly theorised that the objects may be
>jet aircraft. I'll keep the website file updated with any new
>comment/analyses/hypothesis as and when received.

Hi Dan,

Sister Mary Margaret, pray for us! If the person you contacted
at NASA is indicative of the caliber of people that they hire,
we're in even deeper doo-doo with that pseudo-military agency
than I ever imagined. Even in my _worst_ nightmares.

If the image that is presented on the Web is not an enlargement
of a portion of the original photographic image, and it is an
accurate representation of the magnification and image scale of
the original, then whoever you contacted at NASA misrepresented
him/herself to you and the individual _must_be_ one of the
janitorial staff who just happened to field your call/e-mail
when it arrived. It's possible!

Picture it... a lonely janitor absentmindedly mopping the floor
when suddenly he notices that someone forgot to shut down their
computer station! There, in front of him, is a seductively
throbbing, "You've got mail" icon with your e-mail inquiry in
queue just waiting for this bored-silly sod to open it, read it
and respond to it!

The NASA person said, "jets"??? I can only respond in one way...
as the boys in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn would say...

"Whatta freakin' maroon!"

I can't believe the answer you received. I re-read it several
times in order to convince myself that I wasn't mis-reading it.
Boggles the mind. This guy makes Herr Oberg look like a genuine
rocket scientist!

At the magnification level that the photo was taken, (with the
condition that it is not an enlargement) jet planes would have
appeared, if at all, as a much smaller and fuzzier elongated
smear or blur.

Because of the longer exposure times required for lunar photos,
generally between a quarter and 1 to three seconds depending on
several factors, anything that is closer to the photographer
than the subject he is focused on is going to appear badly out
of focus. Especially objects in motion; like a pair of jets.
Also, at night, the lights from the pair of jets would have
recorded colored streaks on the film. Nothing of the kind is in
evidence. One more, two commercial jets would never fly in a
side by side, at close-quarter formation, like that. At twenty
to thirty thousand feet, and hauling-ass at 500+ miles per hour,
such a cruising configuration is just plain dangerous. If they
were two military jets the wingman would be slightly behind and
off to one side of the other airplane. The two 'objects'
depicted are of approximately the same 'apparent' size, and
distance from the cameraman. Neither one shows signs of wings or
lights or any other feature that is associated with jet
aircraft. What was this NASA person's speculation based on? Did
he/she say?

I'm just a rank amateur and even I know better than to make a
'guess' as bad as the one made by the NASA 'janitor'. My best
guess is; if anything, those two black things are glitches in
either the emulsion of the original negative, or an artifact of
the developing/ printing process of the image. Nick Balaskas who
_is_ an astronomer thinks the same thing.

In my own defense and so people don't accuse me of just mouthing
off; before anybody here ever heard of me, I earned my living as
a journeyman lithographer/graphic artist. For sixteen years I
created and assembled images on spec for commercial printers -
 using film and a myriad of photographic techniques. I have
attended classes Upstate New York at the Kodak plant and I have
a rock solid working knowledge of film, cameras and photographic
techniques. So I'm not just blowing smoke when I venture a guess
about a photo image of any kind.

The guy from NASA who dismissed the marks/objects in the image
as "jets" - apparently without much thought or justification,
doesn't know his keester from a hole in the ground. Geez, this
NASA person is everything you'd expect from years of public
education and government training - and much, much more. It's
scary!

As Homer Simpson would say... "Jeebus help me," if these folks,
ie; Herr Oberg and now this new 'NASA genius,' is truly
representative of the brains trust that is working at, and
running, agencies as vital to society, and the future, as NASA.

A chill just went up my spine.


Regards,

John Velez






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   Nov > Nov 15

                   Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 22:48:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 10:34:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Rimmer


>From: Brad Sparks
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 21:18:26 EST
>Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 21:06:38 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Rimmer

>>I wonder if this in fact such a big issue as you think. I have
>>to admit that I'm not a photographic expert, and this is just
>>off the top of my head, so I'm not putting money on it!

>>We're assuming that the sky, as shown in the published Trindade
>>pictures, is quite light, with a darker grey 'object' against
>>it. This might not have been the case.
>
>>Let us assume that a hoaxer first photographs a UFO image which
>>is very dark against a grey background, then photographs a
>>landscape over it. If the sky in the real landscape is darker
>>than the background to the image, the resultant photograph will
>>show a sky which is lighter than the real sky at the time, and
>>will still show a UFO darker than the doubly-exposed sky, but
>>lighter than the original photographed image.
>
>>John Rimmer
>
>
>John,
>
>Well now you have a scientific argument to pose. Yeah don't put
>any money on it, here's why:
>
>The problem with that technique is that the ENTIRE PHOTO becomes
>lighter too, the island, the ship, and the sky all have that
>LIGHT ADDED from your "grey background" ("grey" still contains
>LIGHT, whether grey or not, so that the fake "UFO" can show up
>against it in contrast).
>
>But where is the light from this hypothetical "grey background"
>double-exposure of yours? It has to superimpose onto the
>Trindade island and ship scenes because it is simple physics --
>light adds to light in photography and CANNOT SUBTRACT LIGHT.
>Yet the Trindade island scenes contain EXTREMELY DARK features
>and so do the shadows of the ship's rope cables (as Barauna
>stated he had underexposed the shots, and for good reason since
>he was about to take shots of the launch being hoisted in which
>would have been brightly lit compared to the background). Your
>theorized "grey background" cannot add more light than is seen
>the darkest portions of the film, yet the darkest parts are
>almost pitch-black! The darkest parts of the film put an
>extremely tight constraint on the amount of light that a double
>exposure can possibly add, and in fact it makes it an
>impossibility, as I will explain below.

<Long explanation cut>

What you are basically saying is that the Trindade photographs
could not be a double exposure because parts of them are so dark
they could not have had a lighter image superimposed on them.
Surely the problem with all your complicated calculations is
that you are working from a print, not the original negatives.
Is it not possible that the photos you have examined were over-
exposed at the printing stage to make them seem darker?

Talking of complicated calculations, you haven't told us where
we can see the ones you used to work out, from a series of
blurred still photos, how fast the claimed UFO was allegedly
spinning.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm






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               Re: More Problems For British Columbia Family -

From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 18:02:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 10:37:59 -0500
Subject: Re: More Problems For British Columbia Family -


>From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:38:23 -0800
>Subject: More Problems For British Columbia Family

>Continuing Problems For Kelowna, B.C. Family.

>Date: November 8th and 9th, 2003

>Since July 31, 2003, after an UFO encounter, missing time and
>disturbing episodes which followed, one of the women has
>continued to have some medical problems. Cynthia continues to
>have a constant feeling of pressure on her head and is becoming
>worse as the days and weeks go by. This feeling of pressure has
>now moved into her neck. On November 8, 2003 Cynthia, while at
>her home, became cold as her body temperature dropped to 35.2 C.
>She immediately called the hospital and talked to a nurse who
>informed her that it sounded like hypothermia was setting in.
>The color of Cynthia's skin started to change, to become almost
>whitish/grey. She was freezing to the point where she felt
>paralyzed and had major problems moving or walking. Also her
>heart was beating really irregularly and she reports it was down
>to 44 bpm. Cynthia's daughter is also experiencing an irregular
>heart rate as well.

>HBCC UFO Research Note: The average normal temperature is 98.6=B0F
>(37=B0C). Cynthia's temperature dropped a little over 2 degrees
>and no explanation has been given as to what has caused this to
>happen.

<snip>

>Take good care out there, and please if anyone who has been
>involved in an abduction and has ever experienced hypothermia
>after the incident, I would really appreciate hearing from you.
>Thank you

>Brian Vike, Director

Thanks for the update Brian. I have a few things to share
regarding Cynthia's feeling cold and her low blood pressure.
Maybe it will help, maybe not. Perhaps it will help her not to
be so afraid.

In approximately 1982 I felt very ill and my husband at that
time, took me to the hospital (Camp Lejeune). I felt I was
freezing to death, I was shaking and I was scared. The doctor in
the emergency room examined me and could find no reason for my
feeling cold, but did admit that my temperature was below
normal. I think it was similar to:

"You can't have a fever because your temperature isn't even
registering as normal... I can't understand why you are shaking
so much."

I was shaking because I was freezing - I could hardly stand up
or walk. I don't remember my skin changing color though.

I eventually got over whatever was wrong, but no diagnosis was
provided. That was the time when I started consciously
remembering my experiences, but not knowing they were ET - I was
remembering human appearing doctors and nurses during my
experiences.

After 20+ years and having remembered and learned a lot about
what is happening to me, I can say that I have some things in
common with Cynthia. My blood pressure is low - so low in fact
that whenever I bend over and stand up again, I almost always
feel faint. My doctor said that is "position induced faintness"
or something to that effect.

When I get sick, my temperature drops rather than rises. This
has always been the case with me for as far back as I can
remember. My mother was always confused about it, but later she
just accepted it. When I got sick, my temperature would go down.
I have had it as low as 96 degrees on many occasions.  I also
have an irregular heart beat and I noticed it often when I was a
child. I used to call it a "flutter."

Perhaps more important to Cynthia and her feelings about this
is, many times before an encounter, my body temperature drops
and I become extremely cold. It is a "precursor" if you will, to
abduction for me. This is something that I have learned to use
as a guide. It doesn't always happen before an abduction, but an
abduction always follows when it does happen.

It is a way for me to mentally prepare (as much as I can) for an
"encounter."

It is just my speculation, but it is possible that there is some
sort of trigger, perhaps biologically induced or perhaps by way
of an implant or perhaps even telepathically, that is done by
certain ETs. It may be to prepare our bodies better for
transport - it may be that our body temperatures have to be
lower (colder) to move through matter or to be in space or
hyperspace or another dimension - No one really knows where or
how they take us each and every time. Different ETs may use
different methods, which is why it doesn't happen with "every"
type of abduction.

I agree that Cynthia and anyone else who experiences this should
see a doctor and have a complete work-up. It may not be the same
for everyone who experiences a drop in body temperature, but it
could be a similar occurrence for some abductees.

I believe I am in good health, overall. I have lab work done
every year and my blood tests always come back "Great" according
to my doctors - and from what I see on the print-out, things
look just fine. It's just like Cynthia, I have low blood
pressure, feelings of pressure in my head and neck (most of the
time) along with migraines, and low body temperature from time
to time.


Hoping this is of some help -

Katharina Wilson

http://www.alienjigsaw.com






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                     See Green Ball In Skies Last Night?

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:37:44 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 10:41:03 -0500
Subject: See Green Ball In Skies Last Night?


Source: Denver's ABC 7 TV

http://www.thedenverchannel.com

See Green Ball In Skies Last Night?
People Report Seeing Meteor At 8:40 P.M.

DENVER -- If you saw something shooting across the Denver sky
last night and were alarmed, don't be. It was a meteor.

People reported seeing the meteor around 8:40 p.m. Thursday,
saying that was heading south and it had a bluish-green color to
it.

The Denver Nature and Science Museum is interested in getting
more information from people who saw the meteor.

If you think you did, you are asked to fill out a meteor
information form at Cloudbait.com.

Scientists use those reports to estimate the orbit of the
original meteoroid, and determine something about its parent
body, and possibly find any possible meteorites that might be
produced.

"If you can keep your wits about you, your observation could be
scientifically valuable. First, make note of the time. Next,
look around for references such as telephone poles, chimneys,
trees, or peaks.

Carefully note where you first saw the meteor, and where you
last saw it.

What is important to note for both of these points is the
altitude, which is measured in degrees from the horizon (90
degrees is straight overhead), and the azimuth, which is
measured in degrees clockwise from north.

You also need to note your exact location, from a map or GPS
receiver.

Think about the colors you saw, whether pieces were breaking
off, and whether there was a smoke trail or glowing air behind
the meteor. If you heard any sounds, how long after you saw the
meteor did they happen?" the Cloudbait Observatory said on its
Web site.







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                Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 02:39:20 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 10:55:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Hale


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:06:06 -0000
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

<snip>

>At least Andy is honest about his past (and even
>his current) narcotic activity.


Hi,

Did Andy Roberts reveal to this List, that he was a convicted
Drug Dealer, at the time of attacking Max Burns, for the same
offence?


Roy







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                     Re: Consensus Blindness - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 23:23:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 11:04:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Consensus Blindness - Maccabee


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.c>om>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:25:55 -0800
>Subject: Consensus Blindness


>Excerpt from a Robert Temple essay

>Complete article at:

>http://www.para-normal.com/nuke/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=195
7

-----

>Forgotten Technology: Modern Lenses in Ancient Times

>...The earliest actual lenses which I have located are crystal

<snip>

>If there is all this evidence, why has no one ever talked about
>it before? The answer seems to be that unique capacity for
>stupidity which so distinguishes the human race, for obstinacy
>and the determination not to see. I call it consensus blindness.
>Everybody agrees not to look at things that make them
>uncomfortable, or which they think shouldn't exist. Therefore,
>the fact that more than 450 ancient lenses have been sitting
>around in the world's museums for all of these years and have
>been invisible is explicable only by invoking the theory that
>people subconsciously conspire not to see what they don't want
>to see......

You are referring to what I call the "self-cover-up".... a major
reason for UFO rejection.








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               Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:30:50 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 11:07:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Gates


>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:38:59 -0000
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

>>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:08:14 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

>>Yes, I'm a convicted drug dealer. If you want specifics it was
>>approximately September 1976 and the substance was Amphetamine
>>Sulphate (a crap drug I have to say, but I bought some and sold
>>it on). That was 27 years ago, before many on this List were
>>even born. I'm not ashamed or embarrased by it, nor has it ever
>>been a secret. I have always, and will always, continue to use
>>psychedelics.


>How should this List view the words of a convicted drug dealer?

>And does time allow for closure on such charges?

Roy,

Picture this. A person claims that he or she saw a UFO land, saw
occupants, etc etc. During the course of the investigation it
comes out that said person had been busted for drugs and admits
to continuing to use psychedelics to this day.

The skeptibunkers (who couldn't readily explain the sighting by
the usual crop of suspects, balloons, birds, stars, or venus)
would be all over this as the main reason why said witnesses
story could not/should not be trusted and why their credibility
was in doubt and why anything they say should not be believed.


Cheers,

Robert







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                      Re: Our Capacity To Chose - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 05:32:12 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 11:40:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Our Capacity To Chose - Hatch


>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:24:18 -0800
>Subject: Re: Our Capacity To Chose

>>From: Victor Viggiani <zland@sympatico.ca>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:42:40 -0500
>>Subject: Our Capacity To Chose

>>What is written below was passed along to me by a friend. Who
>>the original author(s) may be or from where they come, I know
>>not. Whoever did write the piece and where ever they're from,
>>they have given the UFO/ETI issue much thought. They have
>>captured the essence of the geo-political mess we are in and the
>>decisions we may need to make to find a way out.

>>Despite its origin, it raises provocative questions,
>>crystallizes issues in a rather unique manner and presents
>>perspectives few of us entertain with any frequency.


>Who Wrote the Message?

>The author of the message is Jean Ederman, a French pilot, air
>traffic controller and airport manager, who claims to have been
>given the Message by a visiting group of 'benevolent ETs' after
>'mentally projecting himself into their space'. On his website:

>www.geocities.com/changetheworld_now/index.html

>he describes a number of experiences he has had with visiting ET
>races over the years as well as the experience that produced the
>Message: "after having learned how to mentally project myself to
>a place in the presence of benevolent ETs, I received the
>following message on behalf of their hierarchy."

>Found on: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-7.htm

>Beware of ETs giving messages, especially on behalf of their
>hierarchy...

I hit up the URL and read as much as I could stomach.

Yeee-e-e-e-ikes!

This guy is an Air Traffic Controller in France?

There is much to be said about the French train service. Lots of
wines, and relatively few train wrecks.

I remember coming out of a red-wine stupor aboard one of those
trains in the years before the 'Chunnel'.

I asked where we were. Somebody said "halfway to Paris you
fool!". From where? "From London of course!"

That couldn't be true, we would all be in the English Channel!
(My perfectly correct verbal adversary was yet another
geographical illiterate.)

More to the point, I wonder if this ATC-contactee exists at all.

Back to my red wine stupor in la France (like it or not!)

I checked my watch. It was something like 2:30 PM California
time. I forgot to reset it to local time. What made me happy was
the way my new digital watch lit up in the dark! This was 1985
after all, a darned good year for me, and the wine kinda
smoothed out the details.


Very best wishes

- Larry Hatch










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                      Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Bright

From: Dan Bright <ufo@zaziork.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 14:09:46 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 11:42:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Bright


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:38:12 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Lunar Image Anomaly

>>From: Dan Bright <ufo@zaziork.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:03:33 -0000
>>Subject: Lunar Image Anomaly

<snip>

>1) The two spots are as dark as the black background night sky.
>If these two objects were in space, the sunlight reflecting off
>their surfaces would make them at least as bright as the dark
>mara or "seas" of the Moon seen in the background. If these two
>objects were instead in the Earth's atmosphere, then they would
>be black since being in Earth's nightside they would not be
>illuminated by direct sunlight at all.


Hi Nick,

Out of interest, would brightness and secularity vary, based
upon the material composition of the object in question? Or
would these variations be too small to significantly change the
visual observation? Would this factor depend upon how close the
object was to point of observation? How about if an object had
passed, say, mid-distance between the point of observation and
the moon; how bright would it appear, given the illumination
conditions in this image?

If such an object were to pass close to the lunar surface, or
indeed were in orbit around the moon, would the light reflected
off the moon (lunar glow) not render the light reflected off the
smaller body insignificant in terms of this observation? Or in
other words, would the reflected light from the smaller body be
'drowned out' by that of the larger, causing it to appear
darker?

Do you know of anywhere that calculations are published which,
at a given point in time, predict the relative brightness of a
space object, taking into account the material make-up of the
body, the distance of the body from the point of observation,
and the illumination that may be expected due to direct
sunlight, earth glow, and lunar glow?

Apologies for my ignorance, I'm gradually working towards
becoming a novice when it comes to astronomy!

Best,

Dan

--
Dan Bright
www.TheUnexplained.info








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                      Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Bright

From: Dan Bright <ufo@zaziork.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 16:39:36 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 11:50:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Bright


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:05:56 -0500
>Subject: Re: Lunar Image Anomaly

>>From: Dan Bright <ufo@zaziork.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:48:28 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Lunar Image Anomaly

>>Very many thanks for your analyses and comments, I very much
>>appreciate it. I have also now heard back from a NASA
>>representative, who similarly theorised that the objects may be
>>jet aircraft. I'll keep the website file updated with any new
>>comment/analyses/hypothesis as and when received.

<snip>

>If the image that is presented on the Web is not an enlargement
>of a portion of the original photographic image, and it is an
>accurate representation of the magnification and image scale of
>the original, then whoever you contacted at NASA misrepresented
>him/herself to you and the individual _must_be_ one of the
>janitorial staff who just happened to field your call/e-mail
>when it arrived. It's possible!

Hi John,

I must admit that the NASA reply did cause a raising of
eyebrows, but I figured that he must have been speaking from
vast experience of observing such phenomenon.

The reply that I received was as follows:

"It's not uncommon to see aircraft flying in front of the Moon.
Most likely, that's two Air Force fighters flying in formation.
We see them flying like that around here all the time."

It must be noted that he did not request to view a full-size
copy of the image, which might suggest that he was pretty
confident of his theory considering that the image on the
website is clearly marked as having been compressed and scaled
for web presentation purposes. As you rightly assumed, the web
copy is an accurate representation of the magnification and
image scale of the original.

>Because of the longer exposure times required for lunar photos,
>generally between a quarter and 1 to three seconds depending on
>several factors, anything that is closer to the photographer
>than the subject he is focused on is going to appear badly out
>of focus.

The image was a digital image, taken using a Kodak Easyshare CX
4230 (with zoom). The camera was held to the eye piece of the
4.5 inch reflector telescope. Would this set-up also cause
blurring of an object that moved across the field of view in an
estimated 11-30 seconds (from witness report)? Moreover, could
an aircraft (or pair of aircraft) be observed taking this time
to traverse this distance, given an appropriate speed and
altitude? Has anyone on list observed high flying jets using
similar optics?

Thanks again for your comments John. I'm trying to thrash this
thing out and ascertain exactly what it is possible to observe,
under what circumstances, and the appearance that an observed
target would have given the conditions under which the
observation took place.

Best,

Dan

--
Dan Bright
www.TheUnexplained.info








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                      Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Blanton

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 16:36:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 12:17:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Lunar Image Anomaly - Blanton


Listers:

The Space Station did transit the moon just before the eclipse.
 See:

http://spaceweather.com/

about half way down. Great image by Ed Morana of Tracy, CA!


Terry






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                            Re: Trindade - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 14:05:42 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 12:31:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:35:02 +0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:17:12 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Trindade

>Kentaro Mori and his colleagues have here brilliantly explained
>how the Trindade Island hoax was accomplished.

>All we have to do now is sit back and wait for Jerome Clark to
>explain where the missing 45 witnesses went, and for Brad Sparks
>to explain how the double exposure demonstrated on this website
>is "scientifically impossible".

Meantime, we can all await Rimmer's explanation for the
mysteriously non-existent negative witnesses, and all have a
good laugh at his self-congratulatory use of the adverb
"brilliantly" - and also, of course, his amusingly
self-serving, not to mention conveniently premature, closing of
the debate. I don't blame him, of course. He has a lot riding on
Trindade's discrediting. One single legitimate photographic case
of a structured craft, and the whole psycho-social house of
cards collapses.

The rest of us, happily, can follow the technical debate without
Rimmer's sense of desperation. Unlike him, I - and I'm sure the
rest of you - await subsequent developments with anticipation
and fascination.


Jerry Clark







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               Re: More Problems For British Columbia Family -

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:02:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 12:34:53 -0500
Subject: Re: More Problems For British Columbia Family -


>From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 18:02:36 -0500
>Subject: More Problems For British Columbia Family

<snip>

>It is just my speculation, but it is possible that there is some
>sort of trigger, perhaps biologically induced or perhaps by way
>of an implant or perhaps even telepathically, that is done by
>certain ETs. It may be to prepare our bodies better for
>transport - it may be that our body temperatures have to be
>lower (colder) to move through matter or to be in space or
>hyperspace or another dimension

I find it interesting that the same coldness accompanies
appearances of ghosts. May mean that the UFO technology and
natural ghost manifestations have a common set of physics
principles at work.


Eleanor White







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                 Budd Hopkins' Holiday Party & Art Sale '03

From: The Intruders Foundation <Ifinfo1@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:22:21 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 12:40:41 -0500
Subject: Budd Hopkins' Holiday Party & Art Sale '03


Budd Hopkins Intruders Foundation
Annual Holiday Party, Gala Fundraiser And Art Sale

Date:     Saturday, December 6th
Time:     7:30 PM - 10:00 PM
Location: Budd Hopkins=E2=C7=D6 Art Studio, New York City

Many members and IF supporters will remember with pleasure last
year's fundraiser, a combination party and art exhibition and
sale at Budd Hopkins' Chelsea studio. We're going to do it again
this year, but it will be bigger and better than ever. The party
starts at 7:30 p.m. on Saturday December 6th, 2003, and we will
offer red and white wine, soft drinks, coffee, hors d'oeuvres,
sushi, cakes, homemade pastries and other treats. There will
also be some surprise guests - noted UFO researchers and
experiencers - plus a few new surprises, an intriguing art
exhibition and a tour of Budd Hopkins' studio and personal art
collection.

As before, there are two ticket prices: a $25 contribution to IF
entitles you to join the festivities, but for those who make a
$100 contribution to IF, you not only attend the party and bring
a guest with you, but you also receive a gift of a work of art,
a painting, drawing, collage, signed lithograph, etching or
photograph, framed and ready for hanging! Many of these works
are by artists of national reputation and are worth far more
than the $100 contribution you are making to IF.

For those making the $100 contribution, you will select your
work from a wall of desirable artwork. You take a number from
out of a hat, lottery fashion. The lucky person who picks number
one gets first choice from the wall of artworks. Number two gets
second choice, number three, third choice, and so on. And so it
is highly possible that if a contributor receives, for example,
number fifteen, that person's first choice, the work he or she
most desires might still be available, not yet having been
selected by anyone else. But in any case, each $100 contributor
is guaranteed an artwork.

Attendance will be limited to 75 people, so we recommend making
an early reservation. Checks made out to IF for the type of
contribution you wish to make can be mailed to IF, PO box 30233,
New York, NY  10011. Remember, you are making a contribution to
a not-for-profit organization whose goals you share, and whose
accomplishments you have recognized. Thus, for $100 you receive
not only a personal sense of satisfaction for having aided a
cause in which you believe, but also you and your guest will
enjoy a party in an artist's studio and you will obtain an
artwork for your home. A bargain, no matter how you slice it.
Registration forms may be downloaded and printed out from our
website at:

http://www.intrudersfoundation.org/if_events.html.

We look forward to seeing you there!

----------

Want to know more about Budd Hopkins and his nonprofit
scientific research organization, as well as past and future IF
events? Please visit our website.

Intruders Foundation Website:

www.intrudersfoundation.org

------






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   Nov > Nov 16

                           Re: Trindade - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 08:11:25 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 13:16:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:35:02 +0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:17:12 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Trindade

>>Based now on first print scans, there's further confirmation
>>that all four images of the UFO are different versions of only
>>one original image:

>>http://www.geocities.com/airsmither/trind.htm

>Kentaro Mori and his colleagues have here brilliantly explained
>how the Trindade Island hoax was accomplished.

Yea and verily! The truth has been so proclaimed (from the
overstuffed and mega padded arms of a CSICOPian lazy-boy
recliner), list brytheren! No further discussion is required or
otherwise encouraged and we can return to the center of our
crystal spheres, regain our position as jewel in the crown of
creation, and once again be the favorite of an omnipotent God!

>All we have to do now is sit back and wait for Jerome Clark to
>explain where the missing 45 witnesses went, and for Brad Sparks
>to explain how the double exposure demonstrated on this website
>is "scientifically impossible".

<golf clap>

Bravo! Well done! Proof positive you're a ufological master
baiter! Forgetting for a moment how quickly you move in support
of research that remotely supports your contention and has
little (if any!) peer review, extremely obdurate (and non-
thinking) consistency is always an astonishment to behold.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.






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   Nov > Nov 16

                Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:13:42 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 13:18:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Hale


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:06:06 -0000
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

<snip>

>Andy is however (AFAIK) under no obligation to disclose his
>previous conviction, un-like Max  Burns.


Joe,

Can you please qualify, why the above should be so?


Roy







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   Nov > Nov 16

                 Secret Development Of The Roundwing Plane?

From: Heiner Gehring <heinergehring@web.de>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 17:37:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 13:23:05 -0500
Subject: Secret Development Of The Roundwing Plane?


Hello Listmembers,

Can anyone help me? Where can I find or does anyone know something
about the book:


The Secret Development Of The Roundwing Plane In The United States
by
John Livermore

Birmingham (AL) 1996
Pandora's Box Publishing


Thank you!

Heiner Gehring
Germany






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                  25th Anniversary Of New Zealand Sightings

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 12:26:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 13:30:37 -0500
Subject: 25th Anniversary Of New Zealand Sightings


Jeff Rense has posted an article that summarizes part of the
formerly famous (famous 25 years ago) radar-visual-photographic
sightings that occurred off the coast of New Zealand in
December, 1978.

http://www.rense.com/general44/newz.htm

Those of you who were "around" at that time may remember the
worldwide press coverage that included 5 minutes of time on the
CBS Evening News with Walter Cronkite, January 1, 1979. Cronkite
showed portions of the film with the reporter's on-scene
commentary (audio tape made during the sightings). He also
showed J. Allen Hynek and Phil Klass discussing the sightings.
He closed the news show with his standard comment.."And that's
the way it is..."  and then he added ".... or is it...".

I first learned of the sightings from  an ABC TV report on
January 2. Then CBS broadcast the 5 minute "documentary" on the
sightings. I thought something like this: "Well, that's quite
interesting. Probably some lucky UFO investigator in Australia
will be fortunate enough to see the film and do some analysis."
I then went on to other things.

Two days later I got a call from NICAP: do you want to analyze
the film? I thought about that for a few microseconds and then
said "yes." A week after the sighting the original film was at
my house. Thus began a long "saga" of analysis that lasted
years!

Anyone who reads the summarized version of my report at Jeff
Rense's site may want to also read

http://brumac.8k.com/NEW_ZEALAND/NZFlashingLight/NZFlashingLight.html

http://brumac.8k.com/New_Zealand/NZSB.html

www.scientificexploration.org/articles

Look for "Atmosphere or UFO: A response....."

This is a .pdf file that discusses two radar UFO sightings, the
second being the New Zealand case, featuring the "Double Wide
Target".

IMHO, after 25 years, this is still the most thoroughly
documented civilian UFO sighting featuring:

- 5 witnesses on the airplane (pilot, copilot,cameraman,
  reporter, sound recordist/reporter)

- tape recording made on the airplane in "real time"

- color movie film (16 mm professional movie camera)

- airplane radar at one time

- ground radar continuously from Wellington Air Traffic
  Control center

- two witnesses to radar events: controller and radar tachnician

- government released Air Traffic Control Center tape

-my in-depth interviews with all witnesses (I traveled to NZ and
 Australia in early 1979)

- considerable investigation of the circumstances of the
  sightings (why they occurred; potential explanations)

- book written by pilot (Bill Startup) giving the impressions of
  the air crew

- book written by the reporter (Quentin Fogarty) that presents
  his understanding and also summarizes my investigation


This case is not "perfect" but close to it.







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                Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:43:18 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 13:26:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Hale


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:30:50 EST
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

>Roy,

>Picture this. A person claims that he or she saw a UFO land, saw
>occupants, etc etc. During the course of the investigation it
>comes out that said person had been busted for drugs and admits
>to continuing to use psychedelics to this day.

>The skeptibunkers (who couldn't readily explain the sighting by
>the usual crop of suspects, balloons, birds, stars, or venus)
>would be all over this as the main reason why said witnesses
>story could not/should not be trusted and why their credibility
>was in doubt and why anything they say should not be believed.


Robert,

In the light of Andy Robert's expose Drug Dealing Conviction,
and as he tells this List : "I have always, and will always,
continue to use psychedelics"

Should there be a revaluation of his previous investigation
answers into the UFO debate?

If no, then is this List happy with anyone with such an offence
and habit, to carry out UFO investigations, and can judge their
investigation data reliable?

Would a jury in a court consider such data reliable?

Can someone on this List with a medical background, confirm
whether or not psychedelic drug use, can impair rational thought
and logical thinking and reasoning ?

Another question I would like to ask:

Was Dr David Clarke aware that Andy Roberts, was a convicted
drug dealer, and user of psychedelic drugs, at the time of
making his attacks on Max Burns, for the same offence?

If yes, does Dr David Clarke think this information should have
been submitted to this List, and the wider UFO community, as a
balance on the data at the time in question?


Roy







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                            Re: Trindade - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 18:52:33 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 14:54:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 14:05:42 -0600
>Subject: Re: Trindade

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:35:02 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Trindade

>>All we have to do now is sit back and wait for Jerome Clark to
>>explain where the missing 45 witnesses went, and for Brad Sparks
>>to explain how the double exposure demonstrated on this website
>>is "scientifically impossible".

>Meantime, we can all await Rimmer's explanation for the
>mysteriously non-existent negative witnesses,

... and wait for Jerry's mysterious non-existent independent
witnesses. A point, you will notice, he has never addressed in
all the thousands of words expressed on this topic over the past
year. As he obviously has a strict policy of never answering any
of my questions, maybe someone else could ask him why, despite
all the publicity over the Trindade case, after fifty years we
do not have a single first-hand witness account by any of the
multitudinous witnesses, except two friends of the photographer.

> and all have a good laugh at his self-congratulatory use of
>the adverb "brilliantly" -

I was not congratulating myself, I was congratulating Kentaro
Mori and his colleagues on the excellent work they have done -
which I notice Jerry Clark does not comment on.

>and also, of course, his amusingly
>self-serving, not to mention conveniently premature, closing of
>the debate. I don't blame him, of course. He has a lot riding on
>Trindade's discrediting. One single legitimate photographic case
>of a structured craft, and the whole psycho-social house of
>cards collapses.

No, I'm not closing the debate. I just think that at the moment
Kentaro et. al. are putting forward the scientific evidence far
better than I am able to.

>The rest of us, happily, can follow the technical debate without
>Rimmer's sense of desperation. Unlike him, I - and I'm sure the
>rest of you - await subsequent developments with anticipation
>and fascination.

Jerry's desperation to defend this case, one of the cornerstones
of the "objectively existing" hypothesis (which is really the
ETH in mufti so as not to frighten the horses!), is of
considerable interest to us psychosociological ufologists. I
also am awaiting subsequent developments with anticipation and
fascination, and await Brad Sparks' rebuttal with interest. I
also of course, await details of how he has been able to work
out so much detail about the alleged rotation of the Trindade
'object' from four blurry photographs.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 18:59:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 14:57:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:20:00 -0200
>Subject: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>If the Trindade Island photos are fakes, then someone has to
>explain the following:

>1. Barauna, who was a very reputable man and professional
>photographer (enough to be officially invited by the Navy on
>several expeditions), wasn't even on the deck of the Almirante
>Saldanha when the UFO appeared in the horizon. He was sea-sick
>at that moment and it was just after some of the crew members
>saw the object that he was called upon to register the thing
>with his camera.

Oh no he wasn't. Barauna's own words, from Olave Fontes report:

"It was on January 16, at 12:15 p.m. The ship was preparing to
leave the island, to come back to Rio. I was on the deck
observing the operations to take aboard the boat used in the
trips between the ship and the island"

What is your evidence for saying otherwise?

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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                 'The Boys In Blue & Their Little Green Men'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:07:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:07:33 -0500
Subject: 'The Boys In Blue & Their Little Green Men'




Source: This Is Bristol - UK

http://www.westpress.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=127638&command=displayContent&
sourceNode=127637&contentPK=7774530

The Boys In Blue & Their Little Green Men

09:30 - 14 November 2003

Ello 'ello 'ello, what's goin' on 'ere then? There seem to be
rather a lot of spaceships hovering in the West's night skies.
More than 200 police officers have come forward to say they have
seen UFOs flying over the British countryside, a detective
revealed yesterday.

And according to the bobbies' X-files experiences, for the past
50 years the West has been a buzzing hotspot for extra-
terrestrial activity.

One of the first recorded incidents out of the 84 recorded on
the Prufos (Police Reporting UFO Sightings) website, comes from
1963 when PC Anthony Penny, on duty and wearing his uniform, saw
an orange shape zoom over the sky and disappear into a field.

A few days later, when a large crater was found in the meadow, a
bomb disposal team was sent to investigate, and the incident was
even mentioned in Parliament.

Det Con Gary Heseltine, who works for the British Transport
Police in Leeds and runs the database, feels the sightings are
particularly credible because they all come from serving or
retired officers.

"To my logical, police-trained mind, the officers provide
excellent witness testimony promoting the 'nuts and bolts'
evidence that supports the extra-terrestrial hypothesis," he
wrote in a special report for this month's UFO Magazine.

And yesterday, the 43-year-old said he believed the sightings
were only the tip of the iceberg.

"Many officers are worried about saying anything in case it
affects their jobs or careers. That's why many sightings are
only reported to me after officers have retired or if there are
multiple sightings that several officers have seen," he said.
"The police are trained observers, they are out 24 hours a day."

A firm believer in extra-terrestrial life, Det Con Heseltine has
himself had two UFO experiences. But one of the most dramatic
brushes with a UFO was reported by two off-duty policemen at
dusk on an October day in 1967, in Lytchett Minster, Dorset.

A large cigar-shaped spaceship, that was changing colour and
form, was hovering over the village. As they watched, it split
in two, disappeared and reappeared, and then shot from view.

And PC Roger Willey was one of two officers in a patrol car who
reported giving chase to a cross-shaped spaceship in Okehampton,
Devon. Their official report filed after the flying saucer
sighting said it hovered over Salisbury in Wiltshire for almost
a minute.


[UFO UpDates thanks http://www.anomalist.com & Richard Hendricks
 for the lead]






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   Nov > Nov 16

                         Caldbeck UK 1954 UFO Crash

From: Nathan Steele <nathan.steele@btinternet.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:40:32 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:38:31 -0500
Subject: Caldbeck UK 1954 UFO Crash


Did a UFO crash land on the fells of Cumberland England on March
4th 1954. I have received documentation on this UFO crash and
the story seems to have been further enhanced by newspaper
articles with new revelations coming from Sharon Larkin, the
current UFO Magazine investigator of the year and premier UK
ufologist.

New evidence reveals that UFO activity was monitored on 4/3/1957
by the US navy in the Irish Sea whilst participating in
Operation Mariner and further witness testimony was credible
from a report by a Tiger Moth airman in the Magna Flux exercise.

Ufologist Sharon Larkin claims to be in contact with a witness
who was detained by the military for two weeks at Kirkbride
Airfield and the incident takes on a sinister role as a local
vicar who also witnessed the crash had died in mysterious
circumstances as he was about to go public with his testimony.

I find this case of to be of significant ufological value as it
may be connected to the March 4th 1954 Rouen France UFO
photograph and wish to get more information of this UFO crash.


Nat







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                           Re: Trindade - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:29:16 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:15:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade - Fleming


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:35:02 +0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade - Rimmer

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:17:12 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Trindade

>>Based now on first print scans, there's further confirmation
>>that all four images of the UFO are different versions of only
>>one original image:

>>http://www.geocities.com/airsmither/trind.htm

>Kentaro Mori and his colleagues have here brilliantly explained
>how the Trindade Island hoax was accomplished.

>All we have to do now is sit back and wait for Jerome Clark to
>explain where the missing 45 witnesses went, and for Brad Sparks
>to explain how the double exposure demonstrated on this website
>is "scientifically impossible".

It says on the referenced web page describing the example of how
light subtraction can be achieved using a double exposure:

"This was digitally made, using a multiplier to merge the two
images ..."

Did Mr. Barauna have access to something like Photoshop or
Paintshop Pro running on a Macintosh or PC back in the 1950's
when the photos were taken? I don't think so. It's easy to use
layers to get subtractive effects with modern digital image
processing applications and computers. I'm not very
knowledgeable about what can be achieved by trickery with
chemical film, but digital finagling most certainly does _not_
demonstrate anything about how the light subtraction could be
achieved using film.







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   Nov > Nov 17

                    Larry Hatch Disinformationist Minion!

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@SYSMATRIX.NET>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:45:59 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:12:29 -0500
Subject: Larry Hatch Disinformationist Minion!


Hello all:


Some weeks after it first appeared, my Eltanin Antenna web page
is still getting over 100 visits a day:

 http://www.larryhatch.net/ELTANIN.html

While I have received very little (generally positive) feedback
from the Eltanin page, there was apparently some reaction in the
darker corners of the 'net:

At this blog url:

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=164905;article=1742;

.. you will read the following:


 (from) Michael Lawrence Morton

 This is a very desperate Regurtigation of a Lie ..
 Thu Oct 23 16:35:41 2003 205.188.209.106

 This very desperate Regurgitation of a Lie ..
 this absurd "sponge" bullshit .. is being circulated,
 currently, by a person named Larry Hatch .. who is a
 long-time *disinformationist*.

 He sent me a copy of this desperate lie, himself, recently.

 As soon as I saw that this piece of #&@! was sent by
 "Larry Hatch" .. I knew right away what was happening.
 He's been hanging around various email-Lists and forums
 for years .. plying his "disinfo" trade. I've had some
 run-ins with him myself .. several years ago.

 So .. *CONSIDER THE SOURCE* and know that this is a
 desperate spreading-and-re-circulation of a Big Lie.

 When researcher-author Bruce Cathie came-out with his
 work .. he (B.Cathie) was "hit" with this SAME ploy !!
 Cathie mentions this .. in at least one of his
 publications .. recounting how "the authorities"
 ended-up calling this_obviously_artificial object ..
 "some sort of plant-life, or something".

 This is another example of the kind of outright LYING
 and the sort of desperate extremes of deception that The
 Establishment will resort-to, when their "cover(s)"
 is/are threatened to be blown.

 Larry Hatch is a veteran disinformationist .. one of the
 "old hands" at it. He's *re-vamping* and *re-circulating*
 this "sponge" Lie .. because I've_come-up_with such strong
 evidence .. backed by such impeccable mathematical
 correlations invoving the ASM .. including dramatic
 mathematical evidence of_Nibiru's_orbit-path.

 The Establishment .. or, at least a significant portion
 of their minions, is very frightened. And very desperate.
 And so they are predictably resorting to any-and-all Lies
 and various ploys of deception .. trying to "stave-off"
 the ever-more-quickly-crumbling facades and false-pinions
 of their empire.

 -- Michael L.M.

- - - - -

The "impeccable mathematical evidence" of Nibiru's Orbit path is
on a separate page on the same blog: (watch your cookies ..
numerology in full bloom!)

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=164905;article=1740;

The title of which is "Grid Point".

Here's a short excerpt from that number salad:

 Not only is 2.480502134 the Grid Point Value of The
 "Eltanin Antenna" .. it is a decimal-harmonic of
 the Y2K Grid LONG for SIRIUS.
 AND; not only is_23687.05056_the Grid LONG of The "Eltanin
 Antenna" .. it is a decimal-harmonic of the Y2K Grid
 Point Value of SIRIUS.
 AND .. "Eltanin" is a *NAME* (Arabic .. "El Tanin") for ..
 the Star "GAMMA DRACONIS" .. !!
 AND .. (GAMMA DRACONIS * Eltanin Antenna) ..
 = Quetzalcoatl Complex Grid Point Value = 9.118906529;
 at Teotihuacan, Mexico.
 AND .. "Quetzalcoatl" is one of the *names* for ..
 "Thoth/Ningishzidda/Hermes/Kukulkan/Mercury".
 Yes .. all one-and-the-same person .. {See Z.Sitchin} .. "

How's that for mathematical rigor?

Further reading (I can't blame you if you pass) will reveal that
the Capitol Rotunda (Washington DC) multiplied by the Galactic
Center equals the "Cydonia City Square Center" which equals pi
times 18!

[ 18 Pi (in radians) is exactly nine full turns around
 a circle. 360 degrees = 2*pi radians. ]

I think charges that I am a Lying Minion of the Establishment,
desperately spreading disinformation etc. should be aired
publicly so all will be warned of the quickly crumbling facades
or whatnot.

I responded to the Morton blog site already. I gave them my
Eltanin URL again. Morton had somehow left that out (chuckle!)

My apologies to anyone who finds this distasteful.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






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                  Aftermath Of Dr. Mack's Book 'Abduction'

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 17:01:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:07:27 -0500
Subject: Aftermath Of Dr. Mack's Book 'Abduction'


[An excerpt from this e-mail was posted to FocusUFO-L last week.
 Below is the entire letter / P.C.]


May be freely reproduced in its entirety, material in the letter
by Dr. Cornet is Copyrighted, Dr. Bruce Cornet, all rights
reserved.

This letter was written by Dr. Bruce Cornet to defend Dr. Mack
against the outrageous attack against him by the secret
committee at Harvard University trying to remove him from his
position as faculty for his statements on the existence of
extraterrestrials. Dr. Mack has interviewed hundreds of
patients who claim to have been abducted by extraterrestrials,
and is the author of the best selling book, "Abduction," and
earned the Pulitzer prize in 1977 for "A Prince of Our
Disorder."

Unfortunately, Dr. Cornet does not have an internet account,
which is why I am posting this information for him.

Marc Whitford


__________________

Dated: 11 March 1995


Bruce Cornet, M.S., Ph.D.
27 Tower Hill Ave.
Red Bank, New Jersey 07701


Arnold S. Relman, M.D.
Chairman
Special Harvard University Faculty Committee
Office of Legal Counsel
Harvard University
Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138

Dear Dr. Relman & Associates:

I have been contacted by Dr. John E. Mack, and have been asked
by Dr. Mack to communicate to you my professional judgement
regarding a number of issues that your Committee is addressing.
I am concerned that any "findings" that you make with regard to
Dr. Mack's work will be based on inadequate or biased data and
misinterpretation, and on an inadequate understanding of the
benefits his work is having on his patients, not to mention
mankind.

I wish my present STATEMENT to be included as a formal part of
the Official Record of your inquiry into the research being
conducted by Dr. Mack.

My education and professional backgrounds are as follows:

I earned my B.A. in biology (1970) and M.S. in paleobotany
(1973) at the University of Connecticut, and my Ph.D. in geology
and palynology (1977) at the Pennsylvania State University. I
did post-doctorate research in geology and paleobotany at the
Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University (1989-
1990), and worked closely with Professor Paul E. Olsen, one of
the leading experts in the country on ancient climatic cycles
and dinosaur evolution. I am the author or coauthor of 21
refereed scientific papers and two books, all on paleontological
and/or geological subjects. I have 14 years experience in the
oil industry, and was president of Geminoil, Inc., which
successfully explored for and found oil on the East Coast in the
early 1980's in Triassic age rocks thought to be barren of
hydrocarbons. I was an integral part of the largest, NSF funded,
continental coring project on the East Coast (1990-1992), which
successfully recovered the first detailed history of the earth's
climate preceding and during the early part of the age of
dinosaurs.

During my doctoral studies at Penn State I discovered
angiosperm-like pollen in rocks 100 million years older than the
oldest accepted age for the flowering plants, and I publically
announced my discovery not long after the majority of botanists
had cast their vote for the dominant theory, which stated that
no such fossils of that age could exist. Subsequent discoveries
of leaves and flowers strongly support a Triassic rather than
Cretaceous age for the oldest angiosperms. One of my most recent
discoveries on this subject is acknowledged in the January 1995
issue of Discover magazine.

Selected references for my publications are given below:

Cornet, B., In Press. A new gnetophyte from the late Carnian
(Late Triassic) of Texas and its bearing on the origin of the
angiosperm carpel and stamen. In Taylor and Hickey (eds.),
Angiosperm origin, evolution and phylogeny, Chapman & Hall, NY.

Olsen, P.E., Kent, D.V., Cornet, B., Witte, W.K., and Schlische,
R.W., In Press. Stratigraphy of the Newark rift basin (Early
Mesozoic, eastern North America): Results of the Newark basin
coring project. Geological Society of America Bulletin.

Cornet, B., 1993. Applications and limitations of palynology in
age, climatic, and paleoenvironmental analyses of Triassic
sequences in North America. In Lucas and Morales (eds.), The
Nonmarine Triassic. New Mexico Museum of Natural History &
Science Bulletin, 3: 75-93.

Cornet, B., 1992. Dicot-like leaf and flowers from the Late
Triassic tropical Newark Supergroup rift zone, U.S.A. Modern
Geology, 19: 81-99.

Cornet B. and Habib, D., 1992. Angiosperm-like pollen from the
Late Jurassic (Oxfordian) of France. Review Paleobotany
Palynology, 72: 269- 294.

Cornet, B. and Olsen, P.E., 1990. Early to middle Carnian flora
and fauna of the Richmond and Taylorsville basins, Virginia and
Maryland, U.S.A. Guidebook No. 1, Virginia Museum of Natural
History, Martinsville, 83 p.

Cornet, B., 1989. The reproductive morphology and biology of
Sanmiguelia lewisii, and its bearing on angiosperm evolution in
the Late Triassic. Evolutionary Trends in Plants, 3: 25-51
(cover picture).

Cornet, B., 1989. Angiosperm-like pollen from the Late Triassic
Richmond rift basin of Virginia. Palaeontographica, 213B: 37-87.

Olsen, P.E. and Cornet, B., 1988. Evidence for early Mesozoic
mass extinctions in eastern North America rift deposits (Late
Triassic-Early Jurassic, Newark Supergroup. IGCP Project 199,
Rare Events in Geology, Berrichte der Geologischen Bundesanstalt
(Wein), 15(Abs.): 20.

Ziegler, D.G. and Cornet, B., 1985. Newark rift system: a
potentially prolific hydrocarbon province. American Association
of Petroleum Geologists Bull., 69 (Abs.): 1452.

Cornet, B and Ziegler, D.G., 1985. Structural styles and
tectonic implications of the Richmond-Taylorsville rift system,
Eastern Virginia. American Association of Petroleum Geologists
Bull., 69(Abs.): 1434.

Cornet, B., Phillips, T.L., and Andrews, H.N., 1976. The
morphology and variation in Rhacophyton ceratangium from the
Upper Devonian and its bearing on frond evolution.
Palaeontographica, 158B: 105-129.

Cornet, B. and Traverse, A., 1975. Palynological contributions
to the chronology and stratigraphy of the Hartford basin in
Connecticut and Massachusetts. Geoscience and Man, 11: 1-33.

Cornet, B., Traverse, A., and McDonald, N.G., 1973. Fossil
spores, pollen, and fishes from Connecticut indicate Early
Jurassic age for part of the Newark Group. Science, 182: 1243-
1247.

With regard to the issue of Extraterrestrial Intelligence, it is
my professional and academic judgement that there are ample
physical, geophysical, and photographic data collected by me
during my two and a half years of research into the UFO
phenomenon to support the hypothesis that this planet is
currently inhabited by more than one sentient intelligent
humanoid species, and that this non-human species has in its
possession technologies thousands of years beyond our own.
Through my own personal experiences I have observed and
witnessed this phenomenon, and interacted with this
intelligence. From direct field investigation I have
overwhelming photographic and geophysical evidence for the
existence of these technologies and this intelligence, and for
the ability of this species to conceal its activities through
the use of technology-assisted mind control techniques and
telepathy. My success in obtaining these unprecedented data
appears to have been deliberately planned by the non-humans as
part of a long term agenda to gradually educate mankind without
causing undue harm or damage to his religious and socio-economic
structures and institutions. I can state from personal contact
with this species that their behavior, culture, and appearance
are so different from ours that no simple and direct contact is
currently possible without overloading man's capability to
recover from the intellectual and cultural shock. My education
by the extraterrestrials has been slow, progressive, and benign,
with considerable compassion, foresight, and planning to allow
me to recover from the many tolerable shocks I have endured
through their revelations. Because of my scientific training and
critical inquiry, I first attempted to model what I had learned
in order to build a credible theory for their activities and
purpose. I have attempted to falsify my interpretations wherever
and whenever possible, and I required the non-humans to give me
adequate redundancy of evidence before I would draw any
substantial conclusions. It has been made clear to me by them
that they will push our envelope of acceptance of new realities
only as far as we can tolerate the rate of change (i.e. without
causing rupture of the envelope). I can demonstrate from the
sequence of my many personal experiences, contacts, and
discoveries that they have carefully laid out many clues,
symbolic and actual, for me to contemplate and/or follow as my
awareness of their reality and the reasons for their methods has
increased. They want us to know them without fearing them. They
will no longer tolerate cover-ups.

After watching the miniseries on television called Intruders in
May of 1992 (based on the work of Hopkins and Mack), I was moved
to want more information on the subject of alien abductions.
Prior to seeing that miniseries I had no interest and almost no
conscious knowledge of UFOs or aliens. I went to the bookstore
and found one book that in hindsight changed my life, research
interests, and career goals. It was Silent Invasion (1991) by
Ellen Crystall. From reading that book I discovered that I lived
next to a major UFO hotspot in Orange County, New York. I
contacted Ellen, and she took me out into the field with her. It
only took two visits to the Pine Bush area before I realized
that what I was seeing was too weird to be explained as either
natural phenomena or conventional aircraft. I began a 20 square
mile magnetic and geologic survey of the area, which was
completed in 1993. From that survey I discovered magnetic
anomalies that could not be produced by any natural or known
phenomena. I discovered and documented locations for apparent
underground transmitters of polarized magnetic photon beams out
into space. One physicist told me that my data proved a theory
that such a form of "invisible" light actually existed! I found
areas where the magnetic background sometimes became so unstable
and changed so radically that I could feel it change moment by
moment. I recorded transient magnetic anomalies that were
measured in tens of thousands of gammas, which is far beyond
anything normal or cultural. And I witnessed and recorded my
compass pointing towards the south during the photographing of a
UFO performance, indicating a synchronous aerial magnetic
anomaly.

I have photographically recorded with time exposures (sometimes
with accompanying dynamic camcorder records) over 100 night
sightings and close encounters, including low fly-overs and
spectacular maneuvers of plasma lights in the sky. The shapes of
these craft were anything but conventional, and they certainly
were not figments of my imagination (there were sometimes
multiple witnesses). Their stealth technology is awesome, and
beyond anything our military has admitted to having. For
example, I was in a helicopter over the hot spot in daylight
when a craft buzzed us at Mach 8 less than 500 feet away. We saw
a flash of light and felt a very muffled shock wave that bounced
the helicopter. We captured three such passes on film and
videotape, which allowed me to determine speed and plasma light
characteristics. But why then did these craft put on so many
spectacular performances for my cameras? The military would not
display top secret technology for any civilian camera.

I have redundant documentation that these craft use ionized
plasmas for light sources rather than conventional lights. I
have extraordinary photographs that show plasma bubbles being
generated (identified and confirmed by plasma physicists). The
plasma lights can be powered up to 30 times normal size and
brightness, lighting up the sky and causing the ionization of
the atmosphere to produce plumes of visible nitrous oxide gases.
The photographs are conclusive! Such displays have to involve
enormous amounts of energy. I have photographic and audio
documentation that they can mimic conventional aircraft light
patterns and colors, produce conventional aircraft sounds, and
even change shape to confuse and/or deceive observers. From my
observations, most craft travel silently; they can hover, make
high speed right angle turns, and can accelerate to incredible
speeds in an instant (documented with video and photographs).
The performances for my cameras were clearly designed to show me
their technological capabilities and how they can transformation
to create illusions. I have documented with cameras on tripods
two feet apart that their craft can project different images to
each camera and observer. I have dozens of photographs that show
how they can manipulate and bend their plasma lights by powerful
magnetic force fields around the craft to produce all sorts of
figures in the night sky on my photographic canvas. I have time
exposures showing double helix patterns complete with nodes,
Fibonacii vortices, giant loops of spiral light, and various
types of wave forms, small spirals, alternating loops, and
harmonic oscillations that cannot be reproduced by camera
vibration or any known natural phenomena. I even have two
photographs showing craft diving into the ground without any
visible or detectable effect. I don't know of any stunt pilot
who could create such an illusion, if that is what it was!

I have dozens of photographs that prove that the pilots of these
craft are capable of either reading my mind or controlling my
mind during a photographic event. Sequences of time exposures
for several encounters show purposeful movements or signatures
of light just after the camera shutter opened and just before it
closed. One sequence shows a craft making right angle elevator
moves timed exactly across the gaps between pictures, indicating
a synchronicity that is undeniable and impossible to explain
without employing some kind of telepathy! My being able to
capture a craft travelling at Mach 8 past my helicopter with
single photographs taken at 1/1000th of a second is
extraordinary proof that there was a mind link during the fly-
by. There is no other way to account for such timing or
synchronicity. The distance the lights moved at that exposure
time was how I established their approximate speed. Try
photographing a bullet leaving the muzzle of a rifle without
knowing when that rifle is going to be fired; muzzle velocities
are typically less than a third the calculated speed of the
craft. I captured on film three such craft buzzing the
helicopter like that, and each picture shows the plasma lights
on the craft just entering the frame! I also have corroboration
from a video record of one of those events. Through
photographing numerous performances I became aware of changes in
my mental state during the events. I found that I could override
or confuse the situation by deliberately changing my thoughts
and reactions, which resulted in out-of-sync patterns of light
movement. Through experimentation (with willing performers) I
have accumulated an extraordinary body of evidence that strongly
supports if not proves the existence of intelligently controlled
non-human technology on earth.

My gradual education by the extraterrestrials progressed to the
point that I would sometimes be escorted by a UFO as I drove
along a highway at night. A single bright white light would move
close to my vehicle, and position itself just off to the right
side of the highway. The craft itself was usually as black as
the night sky, and only occasionally would a silhouette of its
shape be glimpsed. It would pace my vehicle about 1/8th to 1/4
mile ahead of me about two or three tree heights above the
ground. This light matched the speed of my vehicle, stopped with
me for tolls, and made the same exit and turns I made. On
several occasions such a light would precede me home (so that I
would always have it in sight while driving), and then park
itself in the sky for awhile before leaving or blinking out. One
time a UFO light paced my van with my family in it from Red
Bank, New Jersey, to Newark airport. I got photographs. Another
time when a friend (who works as an editor for the New York
Times) and I entered the UFO hotspot area in New York, a craft
(with one large white light and a small red light) moved in
front of us and escorted us silently into the area, stopping
with us (just above and ahead of the traffic light), then
turning with us several times. I had a clear telepathic link
with one of the occupants, because I got a mental greeting and
felt an expression of joy or excitement that I was there. When I
told my friend, who was driving (he was impressed beyond words),
that we were going to make a turn up ahead, the craft sped ahead
and waited for us at the turn! I know of no helicopter pilot who
could do that without first bugging our vehicle!

Another time two UFOs paced me along the Garden State Parkway,
one on either side of me, all the way from the Atlantic City
exit to Red Bank, a distance of about 72 miles. I had clear
telepathic contact with occupants of both craft, who
complimented me on the cable TV show I had just done on UFOs in
Atlantic City, and who even made some funny statements, such as,
"You must have a problem refueling." I was telepathically told
not to slow down or stop. One craft moved silently back and
forth across the highway in plain view of other drivers, and
shot ahead several times. For me it was entertaining to see this
activity, and realize how unperceptive and blind to this reality
most humans are. That craft stopped and hovered over some
buildings, and began glowing a powder blue color. The size of
the elliptical craft was enormous. The other smaller craft paced
me all the way to Red Bank, and allowed me to photograph it at
an intersection. As I slowed to a stop for a red light, the
craft slowed to a stop just ahead of me. I thought of taking a
picture, and grabbed my camera, which was on the seat beside me.
The craft turned around and came back towards my truck. I braced
and steadied my camera against the side window for one second
exposures. The pilot stopped the craft over the intersection in
front of the camera, and turned on many lights so that I could
get two spectacular photographs. This really happened, and I've
got photographs to prove it!

There are now many reports being made by individual human beings
that they have had direct personal contact with Extraterrestrial
Beings who pilot these so-called Unidentified Flying Objects.
But to me they are no less identifiable than any conventional
aircraft I see in the skies. I have had many sightings and
encounters with such craft, and now can identify several
different types, their sizes and shapes, their flight
characteristics, and their lighting characteristics. It is my
professional and academic judgement that these craft have been
designed and built by non-humans. Based on my own abduction
experiences, of which I have had three since I became involved
in this research, and based on fragmentary spontaneous recall of
abductions that go back at least to my senior year in high
school, memories of which did not begin to surface until after I
saw Intruders on television, I can say without equivocation that
these beings do exist. I have met them. I know what they look
like, feel like, smell like, and telepath like. I have had
telepathic conversations with them in their presence and while
they were in their craft. They are not a figment of my
imagination, an hallucination, or characters in a lucid dream. I
know because of the surgical procedures some of these beings
have performed on me, marks and scars of which still can be
detected. I have also sustained serious injuries: e.g. just
before being paralized and then knocked unconscious (from an
energy blow to the back of my head, which left a large brown
bruise) I looked into the intense plasma lights of a shuttle
craft as it landed next to my parked vehicle. A sharp pain shot
through my left eye. As I turned away a clear telepathic voice
said, "Do not look at the lights; look straight ahead." But it
was too late. The vitreous humor in that eye was permanently
damaged. My wife was there also, and remembers the craft and
missing time. Every day I am reminded of that experience by what
I see! I can never forget it. I am not bitter. But there are
many people who have experienced these traumas, and they don't
want their intelligence insulted by some professional with a
belief problem who says, "It's all just in your head!"

It is my understanding that your Committee is contemplating
declaring that Dr. John Mack's work with persons who have
reported to Dr. Mack that they have been abducted by
Extraterrestrial Beings is both violative of the standards of
the psychiatric profession and contrary to the standards of
scholastic research demanded of faculty members of Harvard
University. If such is the case, and if such happens, then
Harvard University will sink to a new standard for incompetent
leadership and psychiatric malpractice.

Even if Dr. Mack communicates his personal beliefs regarding
these phenomena, or his personal beliefs are known to the
patient prior to counseling, his integrity and honesty would
have far less damaging effect than a psychiatrist who does not
believe in the reality of such experiences or who refuses to
consider such a reality when treating a patient. It is my
professional and academic judgement that The Committee would be
committing a very serious error if it were to conclude that any
such communication of belief on the part of Dr. Mack to his
patients is professionally or academically unsound. A
professional must look objectively at all possible explanations
for reported contact with extraterrestrial beings, and must
consider all available evidence, including the vast literature
on UFOs. I have found that most scientists in mainstream science
are profoundly ignorant of that literature, and the wealth of
valid data it contains. I am appalled by the attitudes of
scientists, who turn in their academic credentials in order to
ridicule a phenomenon about which they know so little, and all
because of appearance and vanity. How unprofessional and closed
minded can one be!

In my opinion, it is Dr. Mack who should convene your Committee
in order to determine the validity and integrity of your
inquiry. I do not consider it irresponsible for Dr. Mack to
communicate to his abductee-experiencers and associates his
judgement that the UFO phenomenon is real, and the possibility
that experiencers are actually being abducted by UFO occupants.
On the contrary, I consider it his duty as a professional
psychiatrist to examine evidence for alien abduction so that he
can help the experiencer deal with his or her trauma. It is only
through revealing the truth about a problem that someone can
deal with that problem effectively. You should know that!

If I were accorded a reasonable opportunity to appear personally
before your Committee, I would be able to answer any questions
which The Committee might have concerning the specific data and
experiences that form the basis for my professional judgement in
each of these related areas. I challenge you to come with me
into the field so that I can introduce you to our non-human
earth inhabitants. They have been around here longer than we
have, and I can show you earth-shaking lunar evidence in support
of that statement also!

However, without your willingness to undertake such an inquiry,
it is my firm professional judgement that your Committee will be
doing Dr. Mack, your respected university, and your personal
professional reputations a grievious disservice if you manifest
the "findings" set forth above on the basis of a record which is
so transparently devoid of any reasonable effort on your part to
become objectively informed of the undeniable evidence and
substantial proofs available in this field. Albert Einstein
said, "Pure logical thinking cannot yield us any information
about the empirical world; all knowledge of reality starts from
experience and ends in it. Propositions arrived at by purely
logical means are completely empty of reality." It is the
experiencers who know the reality of which you are so ignorant.

I do hope that you will listen to the evidence in support of Dr.
Mack before you precipitiously rush to judgement against him and
his patients in this important matter.


Sincerely yours,


_____________________
Dr. Bruce Cornet



Copyrighted, All Rights Reserved, Dr. Bruce Cornet
May be reproduced in its entirety.


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 17

                 Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:33:33 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:25:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Boone


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:21:56 -0700
>Subject: Psychosociological Researchers

>An adequate name, put another way, is: psychotic sociopaths who
>actually believe they are important to the field of Ufological
>research.

>They feed off the efforts and expertise of others for a fast
>buck.

>Living in "Magonia" seems to cause this pathetic condition.

>Brings a tear to the eye...don't it?


Hats off to you Wendy Connors!

If that brings a tear to your eye, you should see the list of
psychiatric abuses perpetrated worldwide over the past 100 years
or more. I heard a chap on the Jeff Rense Program named Bruce
Wiseman of www.cchr.org and visited CCHR's offices and read the
information. Who says there wasn't a real Dr. Frankenstein?
Electro-shock, hypnosis, lobotomies, really ghoulish federally
funded frankensteins. I grew up around 3 of the most massive
psychiatric centers and could go on and on about what happened
there.

Wiseman recently succeded in squashing 100s of billions of
dollars earmarked to the quacks in psychiatry. That's just for
starters. I remember as a kid when people would report seeing a
UFO or an abduction they were literally dragged off and drugged
and ruined in the psych-centers. It is something very difficult
for me to recount.

So, add to being carted-off against your will, harrassed by
government, ignored by the press, ridiculed by science and
society and you wonder why we can't get to the bottom of the
sightings and abduction phenomena.


Best,

Greg






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 17

                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 07:45:18 -0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:17:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 18:59:57 +0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:20:00 -0200
>>Subject: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>If the Trindade Island photos are fakes, then someone has to
>>explain the following:

>>1. Barauna, who was a very reputable man and professional
>>photographer (enough to be officially invited by the Navy on
>>several expeditions), wasn't even on the deck of the Almirante
>>Saldanha when the UFO appeared in the horizon. He was sea-sick
>>at that moment and it was just after some of the crew members
>>saw the object that he was called upon to register the thing
>>with his camera.

>Oh no he wasn't. Barauna's own words, from Olave Fontes report:

>"It was on January 16, at 12:15 p.m. The ship was preparing to
>leave the island, to come back to Rio. I was on the deck
>observing the operations to take aboard the boat used in the
>trips between the ship and the island"

>What is your evidence for saying otherwise?

Mr. Rimmer:

A few versions and new details about the Trindade Case have
surfaced in the last decades. With all due respect for Olavo
Fontes, who was one of the greatest UFO researchers we ever had,
his report contains the info updated to certain moment in
history. The case happened almost 50 years ago and Fontes died
some time later, leaving many of the witnesses still alive and
talking.

Further facts of the case had appeared since then, most of them
only corroborating the original stories by the addition of
minors but important details. Others clarify certain aspects of
it. The info that Barauna was sea-sick isn't new. I met the
gentlemen personally on a few ocasions, including when he was
with Dr. Hynek in Brasilia, 1983. I published the Barauna
interview in my magazine a few years ago. He always said that
most of the crew members were on deck, but he was apart from
them while he was sea-sick.

Most of the personnel were watching the maneuvers from the deck,
but he wasn't with them, watching the small boat being taken
aboard. He was apart from the rest of the crew. Barauna always
said that he wasn't the first person to see the UFO. That he had
his attention called upon to see it, by others, and then he shot
the pictures. It is natural to say that, at the moment that the
UFO appeared, the people on the ship were all observing the
small boat being taken aboard.

In the November 2003 edition - # 82 - of the Brazilian UFO
Magazine I've published a long and detailed review of the case
by top Brazilian UFO researcher/engineer Claudeir Covo (who has
also reviewed and ruled out Ed Keffel's Barra da Tijuca
photographs). The review contains a precise, updated version of
the case, and can be found, in Portuguese, by anyone interested.
Barauna is described by Covo as  laying down on some part of the
deck, but apart from the rest of the crew, sea-sick and with a
headache.

Do you want a copy of the article? I guarantee it is the best
piece ever written about the case so far.


A. J.






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                Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:59:02 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:30:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Hale


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 20:56:04 -0000
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

<snip>

>Before I start to respond to your quick-fire questions Roy, I
>would like to politely remind you that you haven't responded to
>my post at:

>ttp://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m13-005.shtml

>Perhaps you didn't receive it?


Hi,

Yes Joe, I believe ET has arrived here on planet earth.

>I don't know, why don't you check the archives and find out? Or
>if you can't be bothered, ask Andy and he might tell you. I'm
>not interested.

Strange answer, in one mail you defend Andy Roberts to the hilt,
and give us facts on his character, and now you are "not
Interested"?


>First, you and Max may like to familiarise yourselves with the
>following extract from the Rehabilitation of offenders act 2001,
>Chapter 6:

Please, I am sure Max can defend himself on this List, I am
writing about this topic, purely on the basis of mass-hypocrisy
within ufology, something you seem unable to grasp, as your bias
in your mails has shown.

>You will see that anyone sentenced to a term in prison of
>between 6 months and 2.5 years is required by law to disclose
>their conviction when asked if they have any criminal record by
>potential employers (including voluntary organisations, eg UFO
>groups). I am sure that Max is aware of this, you could simply
>have asked him rather than raise it on the list.

So you think it was okay for Andy Roberts not to disclose his
prevoius drug convictions to this List, whilst he was part of a
team attacking Max Burns for the same offence?

>Yes, I think that you should do so, and report back any
>instances that you believe (oh, there's that word again!)
>indicate that Andy has hallucinated any facts due to narcotic
>abuse. You obviously have plenty of time in which to carry out
>this important task for the List.

Personal insults are not needed Mr McGonagle.

A question for you on UFO research:

Are you happy or would you question, a collection of UFO
research data given to you by a user of psychedelic drugs?

>Which brings me to my final point - I do not have the time to
>fritter on 27-year-old convictions, bogus Tornado crashes, drug
>abuse in general, etc., so I am reluctantly withdrawing from
>such threads on this (or any other) List.

I guess I am correct in my questions.

Such a quiet List - at times.....


Roy







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                 Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:54:36 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:43:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Rimmer


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:21:56 -0700
>Subject: Psychosociological Researchers

>An adequate name, put another way, is: psychotic sociopaths who
>actually believe they are important to the field of Ufological
>research.

>They feed off the efforts and expertise of others for a fast
>buck.

>Living in "Magonia" seems to cause this pathetic condition.

>Brings a tear to the eye...don't it?

>Wendy Connors

Oh dear, another example of calling people names;
"skeptibunker", "pelicanist", etc., to avoid having to face
their arguments. Now I'm a "psychotic sociopath"! Whatever, as
Jerry Clark would say.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm






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                      Old Sydney Nova Scotia Sightings?

From: Eugene Frison <GeneFrison@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:03:22 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:39:07 -0500
Subject: Old Sydney Nova Scotia Sightings?


2003.11.17

Dear List:

I am interesested in knowing if any of you can provide me with
information pertaining to a 'mini-wave' of 'ghost rocket' type
UFO sightings allegedly occurring over Sydney, Nova Scotia
during June and July of 1976.

These reports were 'called-in' to radio stations in Sydney
during that time (I know, because I heard many of them
personally). The year I am providing is accurate because one of
my own sightings happened during this 'mini-wave' and I was able
to confirm the date of my personal sighting from the RCMP report
made at the time.

To date, I have not been able to find much 'hard copy'
information on this 'mini-wave' of 'ghost rocket' type
sightings.

Thanks!


Regards,

Eugene Frison

P.S. Please note the changes in MUFON's ranks as noted in our tag below.


--------------


MUTUAL UFO NETWORK, INC. (MUFON)
`````````````````````````````````````````````````

INTERNATIONAL HEADQUARTERS
mufonhq@aol.com
John Schuessler - International Director


CANADIAN BOARD OF DIRECTORS

CANADIAN HEAD OFFICE
genefrison@aol.com
Eugene Frison - National Director

CANADIAN CASES INVESTIGATION COMMITTEE
cjas55@yahoo.ca
Chris Styles - Canadian Director of Investigations

CANADIAN RECORDS AND RESEARCH
mjs@intergate.ca
ebarker2@mb.sympatico.ca
Michael Strainic ... Ed Barker
Co-Directors of Canadian Cold Case Archives and Research

EASTERN REGION
linda.chernabrow@mcgill.ca
Linda Chernabrow - Eastern Regional Director (Canada)

CENTRAL REGION
mikebird@interlog.com
Mike Bird - Central Regional Director (Canada)

WESTERN REGION
gavin_mcleod@telus.net
Gavin McLeod - Western Regional Director


WEBSITE: http://www.mufon.com






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                 Re: Psychosociological Researchers - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:14:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:05:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers - White


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:33:33 EST
>Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers

<snip>

>If that brings a tear to your eye, you should see the list of
>psychiatric abuses perpetrated worldwide over the past 100 years
>or more.

Not everyone on this List might be aware of the most recent
psychiatric horror: Time-release psychoactive drugs by
_implantation_! Too bad if your meds aren't right for you, you
are subject to the whim of the branch of medicine with the least
consistency among practitioners. One-year implants are being
talked about now. And surgery to change or remove the implants
is, "Gosh, gee, so _terribly_ expensive and inconvenient."

The implication being "So why don't you just let the implant
expire and _then_ we'll take it out."

I know a local lawyer who specializes in mental health here
in Hamilton, and she reports some gruesome side effects,
which are legalized torture, from meds like Haldol, taken
by mouth or injection. Like all-body pain and the need to
pace throughout the day _and_night_ until the patient is
so exhausted he or she cannot walk a step further. That's
called "restless leg syndrome" and comes with the territory
once the arbitrary "science" of psychiatry deems you "in
need of help."

But the way doctors are ladling out Ritalin and Prozac to
schoolkids, it's not hard to imagine a day when everyone gets
their tailor-concocted psychoactive implant for life.

(Would anyone guess how many UFO abductees might receive these
dandy little torture dispensers?)

There is a second side to this story, and the general public is
not aware of it. Thanks to Greg Boone for peeking into it.


Eleanor White







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                        Icy Object Orbititing Our Sun

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:18:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:26:24 -0500
Subject: Icy Object Orbititing Our Sun


Huge rock-ice body circles Sun - Astronomers have found a large
object orbiting the Sun near Neptune's orbit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3277033.stm







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             BLM Roswell Regional Management Plan & Crash Sites

From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc90405@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:19:27 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:09:32 -0500
Subject: BLM Roswell Regional Management Plan & Crash Sites


While researching the locations of the Roswell crash sites, I
found the BLM Roswell Regional Management Plan. It can can be
found at:

http://www.nm.blm.gov/rfo/NEPA%20documents/RMP/PLAN.pdf

Significantly, the Plan states on page 42:

"There has been considerable interest in trying to identify the
location of the alleged 1947 UFO crash site(s). The most
commonly discussed locations are represented on maps in this
document. Irrespective of location, if such an event is
determined to have occurred on BLM-administered land, the BLM
will interpret and protect the area(s) by:

- excluding the lands from rights-of-way location;

- withdrawing the lands from mining claim location;

- closing the lands to solid mineral leasing;

- closing the lands to disposal of mineral materials;

- leasing oil and gas with no surface occupancy stipulations;
  and

- closing the lands to OHV use.

The site(s) will be retained in federal ownership."

According to footnote one of the document, there are two alleged
UFO crash sites on BLM land. The two "Alleged UFO Crash Sites"
are indicated by:

(a) item 34, on Map 4, Areas Withdrawn, found on page 16;

(b) item 6, on Map 2, Oil and Gas Leasing Stipulation Areas,
    found on page 5;

(c) item 34, on Map 4, Areas Withdrawn, found on page 16;

(d) item 6, on Map 5, Areas Closed to Leasing of Solid Minerals,
    found on page 18;

(e) item 6, on Map 6, Areas Closed to Disposal of Mineral
    Materials, found on page 20;

(f) item 6, on Map 7, Rights-of-Way Exclusion Area, found on
    page 23; and

(g) item 6, on Map 8, Rights-of-Way Avoidance Area, found on
    page 24.


-- Charles Chapman






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                 Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:25:57 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:28:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:50:03 -0000
>Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:21:56 -0700
>>Subject: Psychosociological Researchers

>>An adequate name, put another way, is: psychotic sociopaths who
>>actually believe they are important to the field of Ufological
>>research.

>Who are these "psychosociological researchers" or "psychotic
>sociopaths" who make a "fast buck"? Surely it's the writers who
>assure the punters that most UFO stories are literally true and
>write sensational books, and give lectures illustrated with lots
>of fuzzy photos and videos, who rake in the cash. I've never
>heard of any psychosocial researcher or sceptic getting rich on
>retailing UFO yarns.

Well, actually, the real money is in the skeptical movement.
Compare, for example, the budgets of CSICOP vs. those of any
UFO, Fortean, or anomalistics group, and you know where the
money goes.

In fairness, it doesn't go to Magonia, either. None of us are in
it for the money, though I'm sure none of us would turn it down
if it were offered. Which it won't be.

You're not a sociopath, John, and I seriously doubt that Wendy
believes you are, either. Call it rhetorical exuberance, of
which we are all guilty - including Magonians - from time to
time.


Jerry Clark







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                Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:41:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:37:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Connors


>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:50:03 -0000
>Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:21:56 -0700
>>Subject: Psychosociological Researchers

<snip>

>Who are these "psychosociological researchers" or "psychotic
>sociopaths" who make a "fast buck"? Surely it's the writers who
>assure the punters that most UFO stories are literally true and
>write sensational books, and give lectures illustrated with lots
>of fuzzy photos and videos, who rake in the cash. I've never
>heard of any psychosocial researcher or sceptic getting rich on
>retailing UFO yarns.

Wouldn't you say that a person who derives income from the sale
of "Magonia," uses various UFO lists to beat their chests and
proclaim their superiority (even though they've never done first
account research, lacks the ability to see the forest from the
trees?

Nah. You're obviously oblivious to the concept. See your
statement above.

I stand on my observation that psycho-social researchers are a
tad bit wonky and demonstrate continually, this aberration on
UFO discussion lists. After all, why would a person who doesn't
believe in possibilities/probabilities and misguided into
believing they contribute to knowledge, be interested in a UFO
researchers forum, except to try and be bigger and smarter than
they really are by bullying researchers...much like the immature
bully on the playground?

Your reply to my post certainly tells me and probably others,
that you are very, very naive and certainly extremely
emotional.


Wendy Connors









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                            Re: Trindade - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:39:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:22:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:39:50 -0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:21:39 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Trindade

<snip>


Sigh, John,

>>Let's see now. John Rimmer, in the face of numerous challenges,
>>has yet to come up with a single statement from a negative
>>witness. And he accuses _me_ of not answering questions.

>>Let me repeat: There is _not_one_ negative witness, among dozens,
>>possibly hundreds, who should have been out there. The number is
>>_zero_. The silence is _total_.

>You are showing obvious signs of desperation as one of your
>favourite "structured craft" cases comes close to collapse.

Dream on, guy. I didn't think it would have been possible,
but I'm actually beginning to feel sorry for you guys. With
each passing posting, you're making the case look stronger,
if only to underscore just how hard to credit the alternative
hypotheses (if they deserve so elevated a characterization)
are.

If by some chance the Trindade case does turn out to be a
hoax (an eventuality for which I do not hold my breath, but
hell, anything is possible), we may safely predict, without
resort to psychic powers, that it is not the kind of hoax
Johns Harney and Rimmer would have us believe.

>Perhaps you have forgotten that in a post dated 29 October I
>conceded that it was not impossible for negative witnesses to
>come forward, but that their absence in this case was easily
>explained, even if there was a real UFO to be seen. It was
>simply because they were either below deck or were busy working
>in other parts of the ship.

And you base this assertion on what specific evidence? Your own
armchair speculation doesn't count. All accounts from the time,
official, journalistic, and ufological, insist that the sighting
occurred in full view of an impressive number of witnesses.

>It would be meaningless for any of the crew to say they didn't
>see the UFO if they were not in a position to do so. Surely,
>when you hear about a crime or a traffic accident in Canby,
>Minnesota, you don't phone the police to tell them that you
>didn't see it?

Does anybody think this argument makes any sense?

First of all, let's take his strange analogy about a car
accident. It makes as much sense as the rest of his argument.
Suppose someone called in to report a car accident on the street
in front of our house and police cars and ambulances raced to
the scene. If I saw or heard nothing out of the ordinary and
therefore had good reason to judge the report bogus, I would
certainly say so to investigating officers and medical personnel
immediately. So would my wife. I think I can speak for our
neighbors in stating that they would do exactly the same.

Let's see what else John Harney's curious argument requires us
to believe:

A spectacular UFO sighting is alleged. It is also reported -
widely - that the photographs taken of the alleged structured
object depict what dozens of witnesses on board the ship saw as
it flew within their range of vision. And then, after years and
years and years of publicity focused on the case, repeating the
just-mentioned detail endlessly, not a single person comes
forward to say, "I was there and saw nothing. Neither did
anybody else I talked with. I never met anybody who even knew
anybody who saw the thing. Therefore, I don't believe this
incident happened as claimed."

It's worth noting that we don't even have _secondhand_ testimony
to that effect. By that I mean nobody has ever said that he or
she heard or overheard a crew member reject the standard account
as fictitious on above-stated (or any other) grounds.

That all persons without exception would for decades remain
silent, given the extraordinary circumstances of the incident -
 remember, it made headlines at the time; the Brazilian Navy
backed the case; so did Brazil's president - defies not only
belief but the most elemental common sense or historical
experience. Next, are we to expect the psychosocial
speculationists to resort to conspiracy theory to explain this
mysterious silence?

Or is that sound I hear pelican wings struggling nobly, though
failing utterly, to take flight over Trindade?


Jerry Clark







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                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:42:09 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:25:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Sparks


>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:39:06 -0300
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Mori

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:20:00 -0200
>>Subject: Trindade Photos A Fake?

<snip>

>Those who defend the case as authentic must either deny the
>similarity, or explain how a real physical object could have the
>same image, rotated, and mirrored, as it traveled through the
>sky.

>If the similarity is acknowledged - as Sparks did - and no
>convincing explanation for a real physical object showing it is
>given - as it wasn't, to this point - then no amount of
>testimonial evidence or discussion will ever be able to account
>for this single physical evidence of hoax.

<snip>

Huh? Real physical objects rotate and flip over, reverse course
(your imaginary "mirroring"), and wow even change direction!
Witness testimony reported the object wobbling back in 1958 -
if it was a hoax how could they anticipate someone in 2003
finding evidence of such wobbling, high-speed rotation shown by
motion blur, and even flipping, in the photographs of the object
you claim did not even exist in the sky over Trindade but was a
fabrication of no "real physical object" at all over Trindade?

Can you tell us why a real physical object cannot rotate and
flip over? No "convincing explanation" is necessary for real
physical objects doing what they are capable of doing. On the
other hand you must explain how hoaxers can obey the laws of
physics and optics in carrying out a hoax with 1958 technology.
Hoaxes must obey the laws of science.


Brad Sparks







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                 Roswell Debris Field Look For The Monument

From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc90405@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:42:46 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:32:12 -0500
Subject: Roswell Debris Field Look For The Monument


For those interested in the location of the Roswell debris
field, apparenlty all you have to do is look for the monument.
Recounting the 2003 Roswell UFO Festival, the Sepetember edition
of the IUFOMRC Newsletter states:

"Saturday morning a small band of people left early to drive to
the debris field for a monument dedication in memory of those
involved in the 1947 Incident. Among those involved were
researchers, a SCI FI channel executive, movie producer and
family members of one of the main participants in the event."

Source:

http://iufomrc.org/newsletters/IUFOMRC_2003_09.pdf

(page 3)

There monument, which low to the ground like a tombstone,
appears in two photographs. I think I recognize Don Schmitt in
one of the photograghs. Thus, the location is presumably
accurate.

Charles Chapman






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                             Re: Trindade - Mori

From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 01:47:57 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:37:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade - Mori


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:21:39 -0600
>Subject: Re: Trindade

>Perhaps he will argue that the Brazilian Navy is extraordinarly
incompetent and gullible.

The Brazillian military personnel can be so at times. As the US,
or the UK ones.

>If that is the case, perhaps he can provide us with
>comparable instances in which that nation's Navy was hoodwinked
>easily and went public to validate as authentic an absurd, easy-
>to-disprove prank committed as dozens of counterwitnesses stood
>by.

The famous "Barra da Tijuca" case - which Bara=FAna himself made
fun of - is a nice example. It involved even the millitary
attache to the US embassy, col Hughes, who spoke of how he
"couldn't doubt its authenticity".

The Brazillian Air Force conducted a study, with specialists, to
find an explanation to the photos. They made a wood model of the
saucer, topography measurements, took hundreds of photos. They
couldn't reproduce the images - which pointed then to
photomontage. But they didn't reach a conclusion! More than
that, what was indeed revealed to the public, was that the study
pointed to the authenticity of the photos, as it was evidenced
that it couldn't be a model - then it must certainly have been a
real saucer!

This is even on the Condon report:

http://ncas.sawco.com/condon/text/case48.htm

It turns out that aparently there were fishers on place while
the hoaxers took their photos of the landscape, to later do the
photomontage. A magazine mentioned this negative testimony.
Nevertheless, neither the contemporary Brazilian ufologists, nor
the military investigators, nor the debunkers (of which there
were none on Brazil, and there isn't still) heard them.

There are not few "official" statements about the authenticity
of the Tijuca photos. But we know this was a badly made hoax,
the shadows are incoherent, this can be seen by anyone clearly.
Last year, the hoax of Barra da Tijuca was more widely defended
here in Brazil, at last. But on a curious way: to compensate for
the "revelation" of the Tijuca hoax, the Trindade case is being
promoted as one solid authentic counterpart. This was all
published on November last year, and that's what Gevaerd
recently referenced.

So, the idea that Trindade was a hoax, and that the Brazilian
Navy made a lot of extraordinary errors, is not that far
fetched. Even on some of the official reports we do know, they
mention some of the errors made, and that in fact, they can't
say if this was for real.


Regards,

Mori







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                Re: Old Sydney Nova Scotia Sightings? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 00:36:48 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:50:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Old Sydney Nova Scotia Sightings? - Hatch


>From: Eugene Frison <GeneFrison@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:03:22 EST
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Subject: Old Sydney Nova Scotia Sightings?

>I am interesested in knowing if any of you can provide me with
>information pertaining to a 'mini-wave' of 'ghost rocket' type
>UFO sightings allegedly occurring over Sydney, Nova Scotia
>during June and July of 1976.

>These reports were 'called-in' to radio stations in Sydney
>during that time (I know, because I heard many of them
>personally). The year I am providing is accurate because one of
>my own sightings happened during this 'mini-wave' and I was able
>to confirm the date of my personal sighting from the RCMP report
>made at the time.

>To date, I have not been able to find much 'hard copy'
>information on this 'mini-wave' of 'ghost rocket' type
>sightings.

<snip>

Hi Eugene:

I have cases my database for June-July 1976, but none of them
are at all close to Sydney, NS.  There could be several reasons.
If the 'ghost rockets' were seen as passing fireballs , I would
not have catalogued them for one thing.

If you know somebody with a working copy of UFOCAT, there might
be some listings in there.


Sorry

- Larry






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                   Burns Lake & Saucers Over Clinton, B.C.

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:50:40 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:34:02 -0500
Subject: Burns Lake & Saucers Over Clinton, B.C.


I just received a very interesting report a little while ago.
This involves a man moving his belongings to his new home in
Vernon, B.C. from Terrace, B.C. While on the road just south of
Clinton, B.C. he has himself an interesting sighting of two
saucer shaped object. A rather up close and personal encounter
as both objects flew by the moving truck at approx: 1000 to 1500
feet above him. I will write this up and post when I fell a bit
better.

Take care,

Brian

-----

Burns Lake, British Columbia

Date:  November 16, 2003
Time:  7:30 p.m.

Two witnesses were traveling back home to Houston, British
Columbia on November 16, 2003 after taking a two week holiday.
They were climbing a small hill on Highway #16 just before
Babine Forest Products when they both noticed a red ball of
light a head of them, dropping on a slight angle from low in the
sky. The witnesses said, the object, what ever it was seem to
come down just on the other side of the hill they were climbing.
Also what they found to be strange was just after they lost
sight of the red ball of light behind the hill, all of a sudden
at the crest of the grade, on the highway , the whole area was
glowing a bright reddish color. They reported that the tops of
the tress were also bathed in a reddish glow. From their vantage
point they could not see anything as they had not arrived at the
top of the hill. They were only a few hundred yards away from
reaching the top and from this location they should have been
able to see what was causing this reddish glow.

Just before they reached the top the light went out. The couple
slowed down and kept their eyes open to maybe catch sight of it
again somewhere just off the highway. But nothing could be
observed. No vehicles were seen driving along the highway a head
of them.

Thank you to the witnesses for their report.

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm






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                     Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Mori

From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 00:54:42 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:35:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Mori


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 07:45:18 -0200
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>In the November 2003 edition - # 82 - of the Brazilian UFO
>Magazine I've published a long and detailed review of the case
>by top Brazilian UFO researcher/engineer Claudeir Covo (who has
>also reviewed and ruled out Ed Keffel's Barra da Tijuca
>photographs).

Small correction: that would be November 2002, last year. The
November 2003 edition of the Brazilian UFO mag is the one who
has the cover article of "Cosmic Miscigenation: Aliens may be
abducting humans to create a hybrid race". Of course you know
all that, you are the editor of the magazine, I'm just informing
those who may not know.

>The review contains a precise, updated version of
>the case, and can be found, in Portuguese, by anyone interested.
>Barauna is described by Covo as  laying down on some part of the
>deck, but apart from the rest of the crew, sea-sick and with a
>headache.

You claimed that "Barauna ... wasn't even on the deck". If you
have sources to actually support that, and many other claims you
made, I don't know why you continue quoting sources who deny
them.

>I guarantee it is the best piece ever written about the case so far.

I second that. Sadly, and with respect for the author, the
article has nothing new, being a review, basically all it
contains can be already read on-line in English, in the cufos
website for instance, and in a complete form. It also contains
some errors (like talking about "monte Desejo" - that would be
Desejado - and how the UFO hidden behind it and reappeared "on
the other side" - it actually reappeared on the same side,
returning more or less on the way it came, at least according to
the testimony I know of).

This is also the article which is accompanied by headlines like
"Trindade Island: inquestionable document of the alien presence
on our planet", or "since the fifties the UFOs already lurked
the brazilian coast. What to they look for?". But, well, this is
the Brazilian UFO mag. The cover article for this November 2002
edition is "Aliens among us". An affirmative, not a question.

There is a Brazilian ufologist who may actually have new
testimonial evidence on the Trindade Island, and we are all
expecting for his work to be completed and published. Maybe on
the Brazilian UFO mag. Then it will probably have something new.


Mori







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                Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:50:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:08:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Connors


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:54:36 +0000
>Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:21:56 -0700
>>Subject: Psychosociological Researchers

>>An adequate name, put another way, is: psychotic sociopaths who
>>actually believe they are important to the field of ufological
>>research.

>>They feed off the efforts and expertise of others for a fast
>>buck.

>>Living in "Magonia" seems to cause this pathetic condition.

>>Brings a tear to the eye... don't it?

>Oh dear, another example of calling people names;
>"skeptibunker", "pelicanist", etc., to avoid having to face
>their arguments. Now I'm a "psychotic sociopath"! Whatever, as
>Jerry Clark would say.

There ya go, John, baby! I didn't say anything about you being a
psychotic or a sociopath, but you responded in typical fashion
for psycho-social incontinents, who mark their spots on all that
isn't theirs.

Like they say. If the shoe fits... you've already convinced me
you have no argument.

Wendy Connors







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   Nov > Nov 18

                          2 Saucers Over Clinton BC

From: Brian Vike HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:22:16 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:49:17 -0500
Subject: 2 Saucers Over Clinton BC


Clinton, British Columbia

Date: April 6, 2002
Time: 6:45 a.m.

I had a call today from a fellow who is now residing in Vernon,
British Columbia. He saw a flier on the wall at the Vernon
library requesting that if anyone has witnessed an unusual
object in the skies to write or call me. So he did. The
witnessed lived at one time in Terrace, British Columbia and had
rented a moving truck and was moving to Vernon, B.C. he had
everything packed up and hit the road early on April 6, 2002 and
started his long journey to his new home. He passed through the
small community of Clinton, B.C. which is midway between
Vancouver and Prince George and is located 39 kms north of the
Trans Canada Highway #1 and Cariboo Highway #97 junction, having
an elevation of 887 meters. The population of Clinton currently
stands at approximately 740. As he was driving south a few
kilometers out of Clinton, B.C on a straight stretch of road at
dawn when he noticed something rather unusual way off in the
horizon. He said he was able to observe a dot, or very small
object which seemed to be floating around, still very far away
at this time.

As he drove, he slowed because what ever this was he was looking
at was acting really strange and it started growing larger in
size due to it heading in his direction. The witness told me,
his Dad is a pilot, his Uncle is a pilot and his cousin is a
pilot and he said he has been around aircraft all his life and
knew what he was seeing was something he had never observed
before. He also reports that what ever it was had no strobe
lights on it, as it drew closer the object took on a metallic
silver color to it. The shape was that of a saucer type craft,
and as it approached it dropped in altitude to approx:1000 feet
and flew straight over top of the truck he was driving, moving
at an incredible rate of speed. He also told me the object was
approx: 60 feet across and the bottom of it was completely black
in color. Just as the object passed over head his eye caught
sight of another craft of the same kind and it to passed
overhead quickly and both objects were out of sight within a
second or two. The objects were traveling north to east. He said
there was not a sound to be heard. He immediately pulled the
truck over to the side of the road and jumped out to see if he
might be able to see something in the distance, but these
objects were gone.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm







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   Nov > Nov 18

                   Re: Larry Hatch Manure Spreader! - Mott

From: Mike Mott <mottimorph@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:17:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:31:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Larry Hatch Manure Spreader! - Mott


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@SYSMATRIX.NET>
>To: UFO - UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:48:26 -0800
>Subject: Larry Hatch Manure Spreader!

>Hooo-boy!! It didn't take long to get a response to my rather
>tame message giving the URL to my Eltanin page to the Grid Pole
>Blog:

>http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=164905;article=1816;

>M.L. Morton omits my Eltanin URL again, choosing instead to
>quote Bruce Cathie as if he wrote Holy Scripture.

>http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=164905;article=1818;

>I can send samples of Morton's "impeccable mathematical
>correlations" to anyone interested. Weirdness central.

>I hope this doesn't upset anyone here.


Hi Larry,

Not upset at all. In fact I find it very interesting that you've
uncovered this remarkably similarity between the sponge and the
image in the photo.

However, I'd like some further thoughts from you on this. At the
great pressure at which the picture was taken, how would the
arms of the sponge remain so rigid? Of course, some will say
that since a sponge is porous, that the internal (water)
pressure of the structure was more or less the same as the
external and is thereby "held" rigid--but even at a depth in
excess of 12,000 or 13,000 feet? In terms of the sponge itself,
just how porous are the "arms" or stalks of the sponge in
question, and how does this affect its rigidity? Have you
examined an actual specimen of this deep-sea animal?

Finally, most or ALL sponges quiver, wave, bend and fluctuate in
ocean currents like tree leaves and branches do in the wind.
How is the reconciled with the fact that the "arms" in the
photo are at perfect right angles, evenly spaced, despite the
tremendous depth and pressure, currents, etc. of the
environment? In other words, if the sponge "droops" as it does
in the naturalist's drawing, then it certain does not exhibit
the structural rigidity under tremendous pressure as shown by
the object in the photo.....


You might want to ruminate on these things a bit.

--Mike






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   Nov > Nov 18

                       Leonid 'Fireworks' Coming Soon

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 00:17:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:47:11 -0500
Subject: Leonid 'Fireworks' Coming Soon


Space Weather News for Nov. 18, 2003

http://spaceweather.com

The 2003 Leonid meteor shower began on Nov. 13th with a mild
flurry of meteors over the Pacific Ocean.  It continues on
Wednesday morning, Nov. 19th, with a much stronger peak over the
Americas and western Europe.

Sky watchers on the Atlantic side of North America are favored;
they could see as many as 80 meteors per hour between 1:30 a.m.
and 4:00 a.m. local time. Western Europeans and South Americans
ought to have a good view, too, shortly before local sunrise.
(All these times refer to Wednesday morning, Nov. 19th.)

In western North America and around the Pacific Ocean the
display will be weaker, perhaps 20 to 40 meteors per hour, but
that's still a nice shower. Favored sites include Alaska and
Hawaii before dawn on Nov. 19th and Japan after local midnight
on Nov. 20th.

Visit Spaceweather.com for updates and more information.

Here's wishing each a view of some nice cosmic 'fireworks'.


Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery





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                Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:55:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:13:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Connors


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:25:57 -0600
>Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Clark

>>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:50:03 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers

>>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:21:56 -0700
>>>Subject: Psychosociological Researchers

<snip>

>You're not a sociopath, John, and I seriously doubt that Wendy
>believes you are, either. Call it rhetorical exuberance, of
>which we are all guilty - including Magonians - from time to
>time.

Correct, Jerry. I doubt John is not a sociopath... just his
argumentation that borders on paranoia. Except it wasn't
rhetorical exuberance. It was the truth as I comprehend it
from the Magonia throne declarations.


Wendy Connors







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   Nov > Nov 18

                           Re: Trindade - Gevaerd

From: A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:02:10 -0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:00:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade - Gevaerd


>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:39:50 -0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade

<snip>

>Perhaps you have forgotten that in a post dated 29 October I
>conceded that it was not impossible for negative witnesses to
>come forward, but that their absence in this case was easily
>explained, even if there was a real UFO to be seen. It was
>simply because they were either below deck or were busy working
>in other parts of the ship.

>Only if they were standing next to Barauna and friends and
>failed to see what he said they saw would they be likely to have
>anything to say about the matter.

>It would be meaningless for any of the crew to say they didn't
>see the UFO if they were not in a position to do so. Surely,
>when you hear about a crime or a traffic accident in Canby,
>Minnesota, you don't phone the police to tell them that you
>didn't see it?

Harney,

When I started in Ufology, some 30 years ago, I used to get
amazed and amused with beautiful pictures of UFOs, some of them
very nice indeed. Then, as time went by, I realized that in
Ufology a image is not worth a thousand words. A beautiful photo
of a shinny, metallic, structured object may be very good to
look at or to publish, but it is only entirely acceptable when
it comes along with a consistent report from the photographer.
And it gets even more reliable if the photographer is a serious,
reputable person.

For over 50 years the Trindade's pictures have been analized
over and over, by civilian and military. It is a fact. But much
more than that, and much more significant is that for over 50
years Barauna's report has been cross examined over and over.
His word have been taken by some of the most expressive civilian
and military authorities in Brazil, including a President and
several chiefs-of-staff. High officers from Navy knew the man
and considered him entirely reliable and above all suspicions.
He never contradicted himself in anyway. He never made unusual
claims of any sort. He lived and died a decent life.

One has to consider what kind of man is being accused of
cheating. Is Barauna that kind of man? I doubt. I met him, so
did many other people. Before accusing a man of deception, one
has to know his life much better.


A. J.







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                 Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Sanchez-Ocejo

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:55:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:21:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Sanchez-Ocejo



Here we go again!

Another skeptic attack on the Trindade Case.

During the 2nd UFO Symposium in Brasilia, Brazil on April 17-21,
1983, we had the opportunity to have dinner with Mr. and Mrs.
Almiro Barauna. At the table: Dr. Hynek, Irene Granchi, Leo
Sprinkle, Cintia Lubilus, Carlos Reyes and myself.

From the taped conversation I would like to point out some
interesting data:

1) Witness, Air Force Captain Viegas (it sounded like that)
affirmed that the UFO wobble twice.

2) The ships radar detected the UFO twice: i) The day before, on
Jan 15, for 15 minutes and ii) before the sighting on Jan 16.

3) During the sighting, all electrical systems on the ship went
down for half hour.

Were the Air Force Captain and the radar operator part of
the hoax?

Did someone shut down the electric power of the ship for half
hour as part of the hoax?

Did all 48 witnesses conspire with Barauna in the hoax?


Regards,

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center








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                   Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:13:21 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:07:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Sparks


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:35:02 +0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:17:12 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Trindade

>>Based now on first print scans, there's further confirmation
>>that all four images of the UFO are different versions of only
>>one original image:

>>http://www.geocities.com/airsmither/trind.htm

>Kentaro Mori and his colleagues have here brilliantly explained
>how the Trindade Island hoax was accomplished.

>All we have to do now is sit back and wait for Jerome Clark to
>explain where the missing 45 witnesses went, and for Brad Sparks
>to explain how the double exposure demonstrated on this website
>is "scientifically impossible".


Your cheerleading of any debunking effort even before it has
been properly evaluated sounds like grasping at straws. Why not
ask your critical-thinking questions of the debunking side for
once? I am on record putting tough critical scientific questions
to both sides of the UFO controversy, you are not (e.g.,
Roswell, Kenneth Arnold).

Are you all are out of your minds?? The Trindade UFO images are
NOT "copies" of the "same image"!! Just glance at the labeled
"a, b, c, d" images on Mori's website. Some are stretched
FLATTER by about 30% by motion blur as I pointed out before
after measuring the effect (in Photos 1 and 2 when witnesses
said the object was coming in first at high speed before slowing
down). By the way I already explained my measurements of high
rotational blurring and also stated that this is preliminary
analysis and the full report will not be finished until probably
next year sometime. So whining about this delay is childish.

Anyone can see the flattened shape just by looking at it. In
addition the SIZE of the image differs from photo to photo,
indicating change in DISTANCE - contrary to Mori who has this
mindboggling delusion that he can adjust the size of the
"island" to force fit the object into having the same size in
each pic. That is just ridiculous and indicative of outlandish
distortion of objective fact just to create a debunking "hoax"
scenario. Next will you try having the sun emerge from the ocean
too to explain why no shadows on the object if that would be
convenient to debunking the case??

When the island topography is carefully orthorectified, scaled
and fitted precisely with scenery in adjoining pics to fit a
panorama, the absolute scale of the island and the photos is
established and as I was able to do for the first time in the
history of the Trindade photos, in Aug 2002, I was able to
measure the apparent or angular size of the UFO in each photo
(approximate numbers):

DIFFERING DIAMETERS/DISTANCES OF TRINDADE UFO
Photo 1  1.5 degrees (1.1 degs if 25 degs/sec motion blur is deducted)
Photo 2  1.5 degs    (1.3 degs if 12 degs/sec motion blur is deducted)
Photo 3  1.7 degs    (1.5 degs if 12 degs/sec motion blur is deducted)
Photo 6  0.6 deg
(all approximate)
(Note: Photos 4 and 5 missed the UFO)


This is obviously not some duplicate of the same image! These
widely differing sized images were not simply pasted on by
montage or double exposed onto the Trindade island scenery using
cookie-cutter copies. The object in the last photo is almost 3
TIMES SMALLER!! The UFO was reported heading out to sea in the
distance so the photos make perfect sense in terms of a real
physical object.

The latest computer trick "simulating" a double-exposure
Trindade hoax uses computer equipment that did not exist in 1958
and thus was not available to hoaxers in 1958 - and does NOT in
fact add light to light in a simple linear 2 + 2 = 4 way.
 Instead it has used a modern software program to superimpose a
partial layer with the fake UFO in frame B to the background
scene in frame A in a very complex way using a sophisticated
processing algorithm built into the software.

The frames A-B-C-D on Mori's website were admittedly done
"digitally" and not by exposing light on real photographic film
emulsion. It starts out with an island-type scene with a
density range of about 1 to 8 in frame A, then adds a fake "UFO"
image on a GLARING WHITE BACKGROUND at about maximum possible
brightness of 10 (on a 0 to 10 grayscale), but somehow adds up
to only brightness range 5 to 9 approximately, in the
highlighted rectangle in frame C.

How do you explain that? How does a 1-8 range become only a 5-9
range when you add 10? That is like saying 1 + 10 = 5. (I hope
you don't come back with pretended ignorance and
misunderstanding of brightness/density ranges or imagine that
"1-8" is "1 minus 8" instead of just my shorthand for "1 to 8.")

The intense white background if it was properly simulating light
exposure on film in a real "double exposure" should be WIPING
OUT EVERYTHING IN GLARING WHITE LIGHT and going off-scale at 10
everywhere that 10 light levels are supposedly added. But it
doesn't. Obviously the computer software manipulates the image
and helpfully prevents saturation of the image - unlike real
photography.

In frame D, this 2003 computer "double exposure" has been
arbitrarily computer-darkened from 5-9 to a density range of
about 1 to 5, supposedly to make it appear more like the
Trindade photos but in fact this is an absurd distortion. The
Trindade photos despite looking gray and "overcasty" to the eye,
actually still contain tremendous photographic detail across a
wide range of densities from almost 0 up to about 8. Here the
measuring instruments are especially important for obtaining
objective data that overrule subjective impressions.

BACKGROUND BRIGHTNESSES OF MORI FAKE
Mori Computer Fake A ("Before" Scene): 1-8 density range
Mori Computer Fake B (Bright White Around "UFO"): 10
Mori Computer Fake C ("UFO" "After" Scene)*: 5-9
Mori Computer Fake D (Darkened "After" Scene): 1-5

Trindade Photos (approximate average, 4 photos): 0-8

[Note: The density ranges of the BACKGROUND and NOT the fake
"UFO" image are being measured here.]

[*In the "UFO" rectangle area, not the whole picture.]

Even in the very darkest areas of the Trindade photos, which are
in the 0-1 density range, the UFO photos retain tremendous fine
detail (down to perhaps the 100-micron level or better), a very
high dynamic range. This hard scientific fact demonstrates that
even without original negatives for analysis, it is simply not
possible for a clever photographer to have manipulated multiple
prints and/or copy negatives back and forth through brighter and
darker to make a dark fake "UFO" SEEM to violate the Light-Adds-
 Light rule of photography. That process would WIPE OUT ALL
DETAIL in the darkest and the brightest portions of the picture
because they must necessarily become saturated or blanked out at
the 0 and 10 levels then brought back to mid ranges around 5 to
look more "normal" in appearance. Once the fine details are lost
through this kind of photographic manipulation they cannot be
brought back.

The high dynamic range of densities in the Trindade photos at
full fine detail also makes it nearly impossible (maybe
completely impossible) even for a computer manipulation to fully
simulate the photos. The Mori website may well demonstrate this
is an impossibility - notice that the shadowed island or
peninsula is devoid of any detail, UNLIKE the Trindade island
scenes which retain fine detail no matter how dark. Again, it
does not matter whether we have the original negatives, the
prints cannot create detail that wasn't in the negatives.

Why do you even want to push the "double exposure" theory if you
simply have the hoaxer making photographic copies of the same
image four times and doing a MONTAGE that screws up and gets
some upside-down?


Brad Sparks







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   Nov > Nov 18

                 Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:00:55 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:18:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Boone


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:14:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:33:33 EST
>>Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers

><snip>

>>If that brings a tear to your eye, you should see the list of
>>psychiatric abuses perpetrated worldwide over the past 100 years
>>or more.

>Not everyone on this List might be aware of the most recent
>psychiatric horror: Time-release psychoactive drugs by
>_implantation_! Too bad if your meds aren't right for you, you
>are subject to the whim of the branch of medicine with the least
>consistency among practitioners. One-year implants are being
>talked about now. And surgery to change or remove the implants
>is, "Gosh, gee, so _terribly_ expensive and inconvenient."

>The implication being "So why don't you just let the implant
>expire and _then_ we'll take it out."

>I know a local lawyer who specializes in mental health here
>in Hamilton, and she reports some gruesome side effects,
>which are legalized torture, from meds like Haldol, taken
>by mouth or injection. Like all-body pain and the need to
>pace throughout the day _and_night_ until the patient is
>so exhausted he or she cannot walk a step further. That's
>called "restless leg syndrome" and comes with the territory
>once the arbitrary "science" of psychiatry deems you "in
>need of help."

>But the way doctors are ladling out Ritalin and Prozac to
>schoolkids, it's not hard to imagine a day when everyone gets
>their tailor-concocted psychoactive implant for life.

>(Would anyone guess how many UFO abductees might receive these
>dandy little torture dispensers?)

>There is a second side to this story, and the general public is
>not aware of it. Thanks to Greg Boone for peeking into it.


Thank you Eleanor White! That is the scariest and evilest thing
I've heard of in years.

Yes the doctors are dishing out Ritalin and Prozac because the
public is using them as party drugs. Poorer man's cocaine is
what the street names are. Big bucks are made from sanctioned
dope dealing.

Eleanor, if you and your friend need help please email me. I
will send no less than an army of assistance.

Yes, we definitely need to see how many UFO witnesses, abductees
have been illegally tossed into hospitals and jails.

If so, and I'ld bet there are decades of such abuses, these
people will need help.


Best,

Greg






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                    Psycho-Social Ufological Research 101

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:13:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:24:16 -0500
Subject: Psycho-Social Ufological Research 101


Understanding Psycho-Social Ufological Research 101

For those on the List having trouble grasping the Rimmer job
on UFO UpDates, here's the bottom line:

1. Ufologists research to find and understand the truth,
regardless of the paths it may require to journey down. They
find the adventure as thrilling as the chase.

2. The psycho-social gang-bangers of Ufology only focus on
methodologies to delay or derail the search for truth because,
like autistic savaants (one trick ponies), can't keep their eyes
off the path they are on... thus, forever doomed to go nowhere.


Wendy Connors







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                          Rendelsham UFOs Verified?

From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:14:30 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:08:58 -0500
Subject: Rendelsham UFOs Verified?


List,

Is there a complete database of the total of amount of UFO
sightings that were reported from the week prior to the
Rendelsham event, the week the event happened, and the week
after the event?

Any help would be grateful.

Thanks,

Roy



Visit The Lost Haven
http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk







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                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd

From: A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:22:47 -0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:22:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd


>From: Brad Sparks
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:42:09 EST
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:39:06 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Mori

<snip>

>>Those who defend the case as authentic must either deny the
>>similarity, or explain how a real physical object could have the
>>same image, rotated, and mirrored, as it traveled through the
>>sky.

>>If the similarity is acknowledged - as Sparks did - and no
>>convincing explanation for a real physical object showing it is
>>given - as it wasn't, to this point - then no amount of
>>testimonial evidence or discussion will ever be able to account
>>for this single physical evidence of hoax.

><snip>

>Huh? Real physical objects rotate and flip over, reverse course
>(your imaginary "mirroring"), and wow even change direction!
>Witness testimony reported the object wobbling back in 1958 -
>if it was a hoax how could they anticipate someone in 2003
>finding evidence of such wobbling, high-speed rotation shown by
>motion blur, and even flipping, in the photographs of the object
>you claim did not even exist in the sky over Trindade but was a
>fabrication of no "real physical object" at all over Trindade?

>Can you tell us why a real physical object cannot rotate and
>flip over? No "convincing explanation" is necessary for real
>physical objects doing what they are capable of doing. On the
>other hand you must explain how hoaxers can obey the laws of
>physics and optics in carrying out a hoax with 1958 technology.
>Hoaxes must obey the laws of science.


Dear Brad and folks.

I was loonking into my files here (my magazine goes back 20
years and about 180 editions) and I located a singular article
written by top Brazilian UFO researcher Marcos Petit and
published in the issue # 54, several years ago. The articles
describes new revelations made by Barauna a few years before he
died. Petit had the chance to become friend of Barauna and spent
a lot of time with him.

In one ocasion, Barauna agreed to describe to him a few "minor"
details of the case he was involved with. I can pick up some
parts of the article I published, but the more interesting is
the one in which Barauna reports the dinner that he had with the
officers of Almirante Saldanha, on the very night after the
sighting. He reported how everyone on board were so agitated
during all afternoon by the sightings they all did, specially,
of course, the commander and his high staff.

After the desert, the commander decided that he could trust
Barauna for a few more confidences and, along with his officers,
told him that the Brazilian Navy was very much concerned with
unusual sightings of strange objects that looked like
intelligently driven over some areas of the shore and some
islands. And finally, he admited to Barauna that the sighting
over Trindade that afternoon wasn't the first one reported. Even
personnel serving in the small post at the island reported UFOs
before. Several times...

I will have the article (plus the one from Covo) translated and
posted.

A. J.







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                 Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:02:08 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:45:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Boone


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:13:31 -0500
>Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:33:33 EST
>>Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers

>>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:21:56 -0700
>>>Subject: Psychosociological Researchers

>>>An adequate name, put another way, is: psychotic sociopaths who
>>>actually believe they are important to the field of Ufological
>>>research.

>>>They feed off the efforts and expertise of others for a fast
>>>buck.

>>>Living in "Magonia" seems to cause this pathetic condition.

>>>Brings a tear to the eye...don't it?

>>Hats off to you Wendy Connors!

>>If that brings a tear to your eye, you should see the list of
>>psychiatric abuses perpetrated worldwide over the past 100 years
>>or more. I heard a chap on the Jeff Rense Program named Bruce
>>Wiseman of www.cchr.org and visited CCHR's offices and read the
>>information. Who says there wasn't a real Dr. Frankenstein?
>>Electro-shock, hypnosis, lobotomies, really ghoulish federally
>>funded frankensteins. I grew up around 3 of the most massive
>>psychiatric centers and could go on and on about what happened
>>there.

>>Wiseman recently succeded in squashing 100s of billions of
>>dollars earmarked to the quacks in psychiatry. That's just for
>>starters.

>Hi Wendy, Greg, All,

>Kudos Wendy! Tell it like it is! A respectable portion of the
>abduction-related posts that I submit to this List are written
>in response to 'psycho-babble' from the psycho-sociologists.
>I've been wanting to find a way to tell them all to take a long
>walk off of a short pop-culture pier, but I couldn't find a
>polite way to say it. Wendy simply grabbed her guns and she shot
>straight from the hip, - which is what I should have done ages
>ago. I tip my hat to you Wendy for being a 'better man' than I
>am. <g>

>Greg wrote:

>>I remember as a kid when people would report seeing a
>>UFO or an abduction they were literally dragged off and drugged
>>and ruined in the psych-centers. It is something very difficult
>>for me to recount.

>I don't know how long you've been reading the UFO UpDates List,
>Greg. Several years ago I shared (on the List) a very personal
>story about one of my family members, my paternal uncle to
>be precise.

>Long story - short...

>Back in the mid-fifties my uncle (tio Ping) was committed to a
>mental institution and subjected to horrible electro-shock
>therapy treatments and I don't know how many mind-addling drugs
>for reporting essentially the same phenomena/experiences that I
>and several thousand others are reporting today.

>For readers who may already be dismissing my uncle as 'just
>another nut-case,' I'd like to inform you that he was a _Master_
>craftsman and university professor. (San Juan University, P.R.)

>My uncle was an acknowledged master cabinet and furniture maker
>who taught conservancy and restoration of antiquities for many
>years at the university level. This was a gifted artist and
>respected academic. No 'sloucher' or mere 'nut-job' to be
>readily or easily dismissed.

>Anyone who thinks there is no 'reality' behind the statement you
>made about people being put away is sadly mistaken. People have,
>in the past, been committed to institutions and subsequently to
>a life of literal medieval torture and suffering. And all for
>reporting the same phenomena that is being widely reported by
>_thousands_ (worldwide) today.

>>So, add to being carted-off against your will, harrassed by
>>government, ignored by the press, ridiculed by science and
>>society and you wonder why we can't get to the bottom of the
>>sightings and abduction phenomena.

>Exactly! Well said. I can't wait for the day when the truth that
>some of us have to live with becomes common knowledge. Only then
>will people begin to realize what witnesses/abductees have had
>to learn to deal with -isolated, alone and unassisted.

>There are a few abductees that I know of that I consider to be
>genuine heros. Debbie Jordan-Kauble and Travis Walton to name
>but two. These are people who are more than worthy of serving as
>psychological 'role models' to the rest of us. At least in terms
>of demonstrating how to adapt to and integrate into their own
>psyche (with the least amount of psychological disruption) some
>of the most psychologically challenging and oft times mind-
> shattering experiences. All the while they somehow maintain
>their inner balance and equilibrium. And, without losing their
>minds completely in the process.

>Think about it. It's not an easy thing for anyone to have to
>do. Much harder... to have to do it alone. To be the one to
>blaze the trail because there is no one to turn to for advice.
>Add to it public ridicule and dismissal and you begin to get an
>idea as to how much is actually being dealt with. The 'alien'
>intervention alone is enough to make you nuts. Instead of people
>helping to lessen or lighten the load that abductees and
>witnesses have to carry, they pile on even more crap for them to
>deal with.

>Thanks Greg for bringing attention to the 'human' part of the
>equation. It is the part that always seems to gets lost in all
>the psycho-babble.


Thank you John Velez! I'm honored!

I've only been aware of this List for the past several months
and how I missed it I don't know. I met you in Roswell in '97 if
I recall.

I must however spill some beans as I'm now aware of how large
this abduction issue is. I'm going to have to take some hits for
tossing it to the side because I had no solid data on it. I had
passed it off as something the experts will have to handle. Yet
learning the history of psychiatry and having to finally come to
grips with what I saw growing up, I'm going to have to take a
stand here.

When I worked for Parascope on AOL we had umpteen people who
would show up at our live forum claiming to be abductees. Of the
numbers that would show up I would have to say around 2% were
jokers and knuckleheads. What alarmed me was that most were
solid citizens of all races and backgrounds and were genuine
about what they recounted. The demographics were off the charts
and I would try to help them best I could. The normal procedure
was to send them to a hypnotist or professional who could help
them recall _but_ I quickly found out that most of the abductees
had _full_ recall as they were alert during their abductions. I
had taken psychology in high school and college and must admit
that I'm not a cheerleader for data extrapolation from non
conscious subjects. It's too easy to implant a suggestion
whether by intention or accident. A person under hypnosis has a
lower level of self determinism and will recall what's suggested
so unless that hypnotist is awesome ( and I still don't fully
support it ) then you'll have unstable data and must then
construct conclusions that can only be validated via conscious
events.

So lemme spill some beans here. Because this has bothered me my
entire life. Where I grew up in the Hudson Valley there were 3
_massive_ psychiatric centers. The sheer volume of unfortunates
who were under psychiatric care was unfathomable. It was a daily
scene to encounter 3 out of every 10 persons one would meet who
would be to some degree off-kilter. Some from birth defects,
some from accidents, some from toxins, violence, and quite too
often claiming to be in some form of contact with 'aliens'. I
brushed it off as the abduction scenario was relatively unknown
outside of the Hill Case. Now I know better.

Luckily I met some folks several years ago who were part of
anti-psychiatry movements. So I did several live chats on AOL
polling the general public what they thought of psychiatry.

To my astonishment, these people, who normally would argue and
debate every damned thing, had 100% agreement that psychiatrists
were the worst thing to come along since bad food.

You name em', doctors, cops, lawyers, housewives, black, white,
republican, democrat ALL railed on for DAYS about the horrors
they underwent during psychiatric care. It got so bad, I swear I
could have broken down and cried. People I'd known for years
opened up and told me stories of such abuse I was ready to go
for my shootin' irons. One woman's list of abuses was so long
the claim forms had to be amended.

So I tuned into the Jeff Rense Program because Jeff, as usual,
had been warning people about this for _years_ before it got
popular. He told me who to check out and I did and found several
advocates especially Bruce Wiseman of CCHR. I met and talked to
Bruce, went to his headquarters in Los Angeles and almost keeled
over from shock.

I now know _why_ the people back in those psych centers were so
off the deep end and _why_ psychiatry should be stomped off the
earth. Rense showed me stories on ADHD and other disorders that
had NO physical basis and how drugs were being prescribed by
court order! I called back home to New York and lo and behold,
my own friends and family were one remark away from grabbing
shotguns and circling the wagons because some idiot had passed a
law that you and your kids could be taken from the streets, the
home and _forced_ to take drugs like Ritalin and Prozac! Forced?
No way!

It's way outta hand and I'm glad there are people out there
fighting this foolishness. If I were a lawyer I would be making
a _mint_ off the abused. I clearly remember how well up until
the late 1980s if you claimed you had only _seen_ a UFO you ran
a high risk of being picked up by the cops, sent to the
psych-centers and that was that!

How many people, how many, over the past 50 years were treated
this way? How many suffered unnoticed and without review? I say
we need to do some old fashioned file-digging and get to the
bottom of it. I'll bet you my last Batman comic that there'll be
hundreds of thousands of cases of abuse. That's why people won't
come forward. Fear of ridicule, fear of imprisonment, fear of
retribution etc. and we wonder _why_ government won't step
forward?

I'll tell you why. Because _if_ these accounts are true, and
people are and have been the subject of abductions and then the
subject of incarceration by our own government and subjected to
the level of brutality we now know the psychiatric community
committed, then brother you're talking lawsuits up the
ying-yang.

You tell me, that our government knew and allowed abductions and
didn't tell us? Deaths and injuries occured as a result? You
better believe it I'm gettin' me a mouthpiece and devil take the
hindmost.

Let me tell you, if I had ever, ever, been abducted by some odd
looking beings with bug eyes and they experimented on me, not
only would you know it, but the neighbors would know it, the
folks over hill and dale would know it cause I'ld be screaming
it from trunk to treetop and would be ready to slap leather to
anyone who called me a fibber.

Makes me wonder what's worse, being abducted by aliens or your
own species.

Yes, I do know more. A lot more about this abduction thing. Yet
it's too early for me to disclose it until I follow the exact
procedures to present it. But I can say this:

Where our government, mainstream institutions screwed up, we the
people can solve the problem in a few years once and for all
with a small committment thanks to the efforts of several of our
parents and grandparents who saw the light of day and stepped up
to the plate and left us something that not even our 'friends'
from beyond can withstand. Help ain't on the way, it's been here
all the time.


Best,

Greg







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                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd

From: A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:10:02 -0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:04:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd


>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:39:06 -0300
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:20:00 -0200
>>Subject: Trindade Photos A Fake?


Mori

Since you are a Brazilian and live close to Sao Paulo and Rio,
and you are "con" this case, maybe you could make  time to
extend you investigations about Trindade and go into field. A
lot can be gained if you decide to check out for the facts by
yourself rather then only perform computer analyzes of prints of
prints of Bara=FAna's photos.

His widow lives in Niteroi and there is plenty info about the
case and the witnesses' lives at some Navy offices, specially in
Rio. Everything pertaining to the Amirante Saldanha ship is
available as public records and can be consulted. Covo did some
of the checking. Why don't you?


A. J.






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                  Re: Larry Hatch Manure Spreader! - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 01:08:52 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:52:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Larry Hatch Manure Spreader! - Hatch


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:17:47 -0500
>Subject: Re: Larry Hatch Manure Spreader!

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@SYSMATRIX.NET>
>>To: UFO - UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:48:26 -0800
>>Subject: Larry Hatch Manure Spreader!

<snip>

>I've been roundly rapped by Larry Hatch on a number of
>occasions. I've also had some off list communications with
>Larry. I don't have time to read every post on UFO Updates, but:

>Our mind control group has decades of experience with
>disinformationists, and we've developed a fairly good set of red
>flags over time. I have seen nothing from Larry that raises
>_any_ disinformationist red flags. He's a skeptic, in my view,
>which is an honourable state.


Well, thank you Eleanor for your kind words!

Simple disagreement is one thing, and much to be expected. The
rants and charges coming from the Grid-Pole are something else
entirely.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






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                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd

From: A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 07:46:06 -0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:56:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:50:32 +0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

<snip>

>I would like to hear what other researchers (pro and con
>Trindade) make of this startling new information which has
>miraculously come to light fifty years after the events.


Rimmer:

No miracle at all. In Ufology, cases get corroborated all the
time throughout the years. It happened and is still happening
with Roswell, for instance. Your attempt to discredit Trindade's
photos is proof of that.

Barauna lived and died as a reputable man. The idea that he
could have faked the pictures with double exposure and/or other
technics (such as switching the roll of film) is too odd to be
taken seriously.

One has to know what he speaks. You should perform a greater
investigation of the case, interviewing the people that
remained alive and checking out the military docs to accomplish
you task.

Why don't you?

A. J.








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                     Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Cunha

From: Pedro Luz Cunha <pplcunha@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:03:45 -0300 (ART)
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:29:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Cunha


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:50:32 +0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 07:45:18 -0200
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 18:59:57 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

><snip>

>>>"It was on January 16, at 12:15 p.m. The ship was preparing to
>>>leave the island, to come back to Rio. I was on the deck
>>>observing the operations to take aboard the boat used in the
>>>trips between the ship and the island"

>>>What is your evidence for saying otherwise?

>>A few versions and new details about the Trindade Case have
>>surfaced in the last decades. With all due respect for Olavo
>>Fontes, who was one of the greatest UFO researchers we ever had,
>>his report contains the info updated to certain moment in
>>history. The case happened almost 50 years ago and Fontes died
>>some time later, leaving many of the witnesses still alive and
>>talking.

>So what are you saying? Fontes misreported what Barauna said?
>Barauna forgot what he was doing at the time?

Hello John Rimmer,

This is a misinterpretation. Gevaerd was clear when he said that
new facts were added to the research done before by Olavo
Fontes. And that's part of his knowledge as a ufologist
researcher. He met the man. He talked to him. So did Olavo
Fontes and others. Did you?

None of the research done by Olavo can be disregarded as being
wrong or not. Barauna did not forget what he was doing at the
time. He was only sick on the ship's deck, and for the sake of
research, details can and are welcome to be added in any
scientific research. We are not talking about hypothesis nor a
theory. The accuracy of a good research depends also on the
field investigation. And a witness can be questioned as many
times as they allow us to.

>This is not just a little detail, it is fundamental
>to the case.

Can you elaborate on this?

>If something so basic can be wrong with the reporting of the
>case, then there is no way whatsoever that it can be regarded as
>a reliable case, and just confirms the view that Trindade cannot
>stand up to scrutiny.

What is that 'so basic'?

Well, someone has to be a mastermind to remember everything at
once. How do the law enforcement people deal with it?

>I would like to hear what other researchers (pro and con
>Trindade) make of this startling new information which has
>miraculously come to light fifty years after the events.

My dimes worth are above.....


Pedro Luz Cunha







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   Nov > Nov 18

              Re: BLM Roswell Regional Management Plan & Crash

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:40:50 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:10:46 -0500
Subject: Re: BLM Roswell Regional Management Plan & Crash


>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc90405@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:19:27 -0800 (PST)
>Subject: BLM Roswell Regional Management Plan & Crash Sites

For the record and what it's worth, Dennis Balthaser and I
obtained these documents and others from BLM in 1999.
Indeed, interesting material.


Wendy Connors







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   Nov > Nov 19

                           Re: Trindade - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:35:18 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 03:51:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade - Lehmberg


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:39:09 -0600
>Subject: Re: Trindade

>>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:39:50 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Trindade

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:21:39 -0600
>>>Subject: Re: Trindade

><snip>

>Sigh, John,

<snip>

>Or is that sound I hear pelican wings struggling nobly, though
>failing utterly, to take flight over Trindade?


I think Mr. Clark is displaying too much of his trademark
gentility in this well turned remark. There is nothing "noble"
in the furtive pistoning of these unenlightened, emaciated, and
featherless pinions. Lift equals coeffeiency times surface area
times the square of its velocity, and our Mr. Rimmer
demonstrates an ongoing paucity of all three.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Nov > Nov 19

                            Re: Trindade - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:03:52 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:00:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade - Clark


>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 01:47:57 -0300
>Subject: Re: Trindade

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:21:39 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Trindade

>>Perhaps he will argue that the Brazilian Navy is extraordinarly
>>incompetent and gullible.

>The Brazillian military personnel can be so at times. As the US,
>or the UK ones.

>>So, the idea that Trindade was a hoax, and that the Brazilian
>>Navy made a lot of extraordinary errors, is not that far
>>fetched. Even on some of the official reports we do know, they
>>mention some of the errors made, and that in fact, they can't
>>say if this was for real.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Too many negative witnesses to alert any
investigating authorities to the hoax. Too many other people -
journalists, ufologists, debunkers - looking at the case, too,
and still not a whisper of disconfirming testimony.


Jerry Clark








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                     Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:53:23 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:19:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:33:24 +0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:10:02 -0200
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:39:06 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>Since you are a Brazilian and live close to Sao Paulo and Rio,
>>and you are "con" this case, maybe you could make  time to
>>extend you investigations about Trindade and go into field. A
>>lot can be gained if you decide to check out for the facts by
>>yourself rather then only perform computer analyzes of prints of
>>prints of Barauna's photos.

>Such as Brad sparks is doing, you mean?

I guess that when they're losing the arguments, pelicanists are
reduced to this.  On the other hand, it may be that even though
I've known Brad Sparks for, oh, maybe 25 years, I was unaware
that he "lives close to Sao Paulo and Rio."  I'd always been
under the impression that he lives in California. I look forward
to John's producing the evidence that Brad has engaged in an
outrageous hoax concerning his place of residence.

Amazing the things you learn reading the, uh, interesting
revelations that fall from a pelican-infested sky.


Jerry Clark







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                Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:58:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:41:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Connors


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:46:30 +0000
>Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Rimmer

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:41:57 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers

<snip>

Not worthy of my time to comment.

>I stand on my observation that psycho-social researchers are a
>tad bit wonky and demonstrate continually, this aberration on
>UFO discussion lists. After all, why would a person who doesn't
>believe in possibilities/probabilities and misguided into
>believing they contribute to knowledge, be interested in a UFO
>researchers forum, except to try and be bigger and smarter than
>they really are by bullying researchers... much like the immature
>bully on the playground?

>>Maybe because, even though we don't buy wholeheartedly into the
>>ETH, we still think UFOs are an interesting subject worthy of
>>debate. Perhaps, in your own words, "you're obviously oblivious
>>to the concept"?

The ETH is worthy of debate. Unfortunately, psycho-social
researchers don't debate. They just nest on researchers work and
try to soil it without regard to anyone or anything. By the way,
I never brought up the ETH... another rush to judgment on your
part and a petty psycho-social attempt at the Peter Principle by
arriving early to nest. You're definitely a credit to yourself.

>>And as far as "bullying researchers" are concerned, Magonia has
>>never tried to ruin anybody with libel actions.

Difficult to believe, actually... let's see... Barauna isn't an
honest person according to your postings, but you bring only
opinion to the charge. You haven't proven that he was a hoaxer,
but constantly berate him and researchers as being such in your
postings to UFO Updates.

Do I think your paranoid and a sociopath? It's certainly isn't
improbable. Here's why:

1. You seem to have an insatiable desire to dwell on personal
opinion you're unable to back up with documentation.

2. You believe researchers have everything wrong, cheated or
hoaxed the Trindade case without documentation.

3. You believe the witnesses to the sighting are all liars, but
can't document it.

4. You believe the photos of Barauna are fakes, but can't prove
it.

5. You insist that Ufologists prove your opinion is wrong, but
can't prove their research is not valid.

Thus, your posts to UFO UpDates insinuate there is a conspircy
against your position... otherwise, you wouldn't incessantly
beat a dead horse (your Trindade position) on UFO Updates.

I haven't checked the DSM-V lately, but it might be worthy of a
look-see.


Wendy Connors







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                          Filer's Files #47 -- 2003

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:51:35 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:16:16 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #47 -- 2003


Filer's Files #47 -- 2003 Skywatch Investigations.
George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
November 19, 2003
Webmaster: Chuck Warren
My website is at: www.georgefiler.com/
Majorstar @ aol.com Sponsored by: OPC-3

Many UFOs Reported During Lunar Eclipse

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. This week's files investigate Mars - Images
Show Mars Had Rivers With Deltas, British Craft to Land on Mars
on Christmas Day and Search for Life. UFO reports: Maine -
Sphere at the Lunar Eclipse, Massachusetts - Multiple Lights
Gliding Silently During Lunar Eclipse, Connecticut - Fifteen
Objects Seen During the Lunar Eclipse, New York - Flying
Triangle Seen During Lunar Eclipse, New Jersey - During A Lunar
Eclipse: Faint Reddish Zigzagging Light Pennsylvania - Erratic
Moving Star - Sphere With Crescent Reflection, Virginia - Three
Flashing Objects Fly into Space During Eclipse, Georgia - Loud
Sounds and Flashing Lights, Florida - Strange Cone-Shaped Beam
of Light, Michigan - UFOs seen during Eclipse, Illinois -Flying
Triangle During Eclipse, Oklahoma - Hundreds of Huge Fire Flies,
California - Flying Triangle Spotted During Eclipse, Oregon -
Witness Claims F-15 Fighters Approach Sphere, Canada -
Continuing Problems for Abductee Family, Argentina - Two UFOs
and A Cattle Mutilation, Italian UFO Reports On The Rise, and
New UFO website on Pine Bush, New York. Chief Justice Roy Moore
is Fired for belief in God and Ten Commandments

Mars - Images Show Mars Had Rivers With Deltas

Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) has been operating in Mars orbit
since September 1997, and imaged about 3% of the Martian surface
with its high resolution (1.5 to 12 meters, 5 to 40 feet, per
pixel), narrow angle camera system. Mars Today.com reports the
journal Science has published online (in Science Express) the
most recent MOC discovery: an ancient, eroded, and exhumed
sedimentary distributary fan located in a crater at 24.3=C2=B0S,
33.5=C2=B0W. A distributary fan is a generic term used by geologists
to describe river deltas and alluvial fans. Apparently, liquid
water flowed across the Martian surface, and sediments
transported through valleys by water formed a fan-shaped deposit
in a 64-kilometer (40 miles) - diameter crater.

The discovery provides the first clear, unequivocal evidence
that some valleys on Mars experienced the same type of on-going,
or, persistent, flow over long periods of time as rivers do on
Earth. Second, because the fan is today a deposit of sedimentary
rock, it demonstrates that some sedimentary rocks on Mars were,
as has been suspected but never clearly demonstrated, deposited
in a liquid (probably water) environment. Third, the general
shape, pattern of its channels, and low topographic slopes
provide circumstantial evidence that the feature was actually a
delta--that is, a deposit made when a river or stream enters a
body of water similar to the Mississippi River Delta. The
landform is the strongest indicator yet that Mars once held
lakes.

The picture, MOC2-543a, is a mosaic of MOC high resolution
images 14 km (8.7 mi) by 19.3 km (12 mi). The picture shows the
entire distributary fan most likely caused by a river. The fan
is a fossil landform--that is an eroded remnant of a somewhat
larger, somewhat thicker deposit. Thanks to:
http://www.marstoday.com/

Pictures Credit: NASA/JPL/Malin Space Science Systems.

British Craft To Land on Mars on Christmas Day and Search For
Life

A British-built craft designed to scour the surface of Mars for
signs of life is scheduled to land on Christmas Day and begin
conducting experiments. The Beagle 2 Lander is traveling aboard
the European Space Agency's Mars Express craft, and weighs 132-
pounds. It is shell shaped and packed with scientific
instruments. Two-thirds of the 34 unmanned missions to Mars have
ended in failure. It will collect soil and rock samples, dig
into Mars to search for organic materials, and check the
atmosphere for traces of methane produced by living organisms.

Editor's Note: My prediction is that evidence for life on Mars
will be found.

Maine - Sphere at the Lunar Eclipse

AUGUSTA - A couple went out side to look at the Lunar Eclipse on
November 8, 2003, at 8:17 PM, and noticed something, a Shooting
Star. The witness pointed it out to his fianc=C3=A9e, and the object
slowed down and then turned and did a figure 8 and proceeded
into a circular motion. The flying object was red and then faded
to white as it turned left and shot backwards off into the
distance. The witness states, "Earlier this month, I was looking
outside and noticed a white light in the shape of a circle for
five seconds and it immediately stopped glowing and disappeared.
I'm a highly intelligent person and I'm telling you this was
REAL! Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Massachusetts - Multiple Lights Gliding Silently During Lunar
Eclipse

BROOKLINE -- During the Lunar Eclipse on November 8, 2003, a
hook shaped UFO comprised of about thirty small white lights (as
if two sides of a triangle) was spotted by the witness moving
silently from the northeast and curving across the sky towards
the northwest. It maintained a consistent altitude and speed,
and eventually flew away. The lights did not blink or change
configuration. Thanks to Peter Davenport

GRAFTON - The observers report, "We were watching the lunar
eclipse (with binoculars) when we observed a chevron-shaped
formation traveling from east to west at a high rate of speed.
The formation itself covered ten degrees of arc and traversed
the entire sky in about thirty seconds. With the naked eye, the
formation looked like ducks flying south with lights, but with
binoculars it was possible to discern at least 20 to 25 separate
points of light in a solid boomerang shape. There was absolutely
no sound. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Connecticut - Fifteen Objects Seen During the Lunar Eclipse

NEWINGTON - The observer was in his backyard, when he noticed
fifteen objects just below the Lunar Eclipse flying in vertical
formation, moving very fast on November 8, 2003, at 8:10 PM. He
states, "The objects were very visible, and even though I was
using 10x50 binoculars at the time, I could still only see the
bright lights moving in formation nothing more.=E2=C7=D8 The lights
were bright white, and were only visible for about twenty
seconds and were gone. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

New York - Flying Triangle Seen During Lunar Eclipse

NEW YORK CITY - The eyewitnesses were standing on top of a
building on 30th and 7th Avenue watching the Lunar Eclipse on
November 8, 2003, at 8 PM, when they saw a triangle shaped
object flying across the sky at a fast pace.=E2=C7=D8 We all saw it,
and agreed it had a triangle shape, but with an extra bump
adjacent on the triangle shape. At first it looked like a piece
of toilet paper flying through the sky, but this was a fixed
shape. Then we thought it was a glider, but the shape was wrong
and it was too high and much too big to be a glider. It
definitely wasn't a plane, there were no sounds coming from it.
It took about one minute to streak across the sky. Thanks to
Peter Davenport

MANHATTAN - Over the course of an hour or so around 8 PM, on
November 8, 2003, the witness saw what at first looked like a
group of birds flying in a V formation with lights. They were
very high up and flying south shifting and changing in strange
patterns. After a few seconds it became clear that they were not
birds, since they too high and moving too quickly. They looked
almost like long strands of toilet paper, really high up, that
would separate and then reconnect. We saw several of these
formations fly across the sky, all north to south against the
wind. Some were illuminated, although it's hard to tell if they
were producing light or reflecting the light from the city
below. There were no flashing lights. Thanks to Peter Davenport

NEW YORK CITY (JAMAICA AREA) -- on the night of the Eclipse the
witness saw a boomerang shaped object hovering over the park in
Jamaica, Queens. Twenty minutes later I saw jet fighters
circling the city. Thanks to Peter Davenport

OZONE PARK -- On November 8, between 8:30 to 8:45 PM a family
was outside looking at the Lunar Eclipse when they saw a sliver
or dark gray boomerang with no lights that was drifting out of a
hue of clouds. It appeared like a hand glider but its shape was
like the formation of wild geese. It was a giant silver or dark
gray boomerang and blended into the sky. It was big and I
pointed it out to my 17-year-old sister and my 58-year-old
mother. All types of aircraft fly right over our house. The
object appeared to be at an altitude of 9-10,000 feet. There
were no lights, no sound...just a steady drifting object moving
south and then turning widely east. Five minutes later, when
again for a second time, we saw the same object moving from the
east. A close friend, also, was amazed to see this strange and
weird object. Four minutes later you could hear and see a
fighter jet with lights flashing flying at great speeds at a
higher altitude, also moving west to east. Thanks to Peter
Davenport UFOcenter

New Jersey - During A Lunar Eclipse: Faint Reddish Zigzagging
Light

BRIDGEWATER - On November 8, 2003, at 7:50 PM, a couple was
standing in a field watching the eclipse with the Moon about 85%
covered. The boyfriend points up and says, "Do you see that?" I
saw a very faint point of light. It wasn't emitting it's own
light, as though it was reflecting a dark red light. At no point
during my watch was the moon red, but my cousin was watching
from the next county over and said that the moon was an orangey-
red. The light was traveling away from the moon, much faster
than anyone flies around here. It was moving quickly and
zigzagging. I lost sight of it a couple times, but it would move
sharply, and we could pick it up again. It was unmistakable. The
movement was very much like a bat, but it was up way too high to
be a bat. It was above cloud level. The light zigzagged away
from the moon heading south. My boyfriend said, "It was a UFO,
that he'd seen a lot in Long Valley.=E2=C7=D8 Thanks to Peter
Davenport

NORTH BERGEN - On November 3, 2003, at about 5:40 PM, the
witness was watching the sunset, and saw something that looked
like a star, but it was moving in circles and zigzagging. It
moved for five seconds and stopped but then continued
maneuvering for about an hour, and then it became steady. Thanks
to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Pennsylvania - Erratic Moving Star - Sphere With Crescent
Reflection.

RUTLEDGE - The witness reported seeing a light moving northwest
relatively fast on November 9, 2003, at 10:56 PM. Its light was
slightly flickering as it suddenly stopped moving, and then
started moving fast in the opposite direction. Then, it reversed
course back to the original direction moving very slow this time
yet noticeable. It didn't flicker as much and became a steady
light. Two jetliners flew by lower than this object, but they
didn't look anything like this object. It was much brighter than
any object in the sky, except for the moon and those jetliners.
It appeared the light was not on the object but rather a
reflection from a spherical object -- maybe caused by the bright
moon. The reflection was brightest in the direction of the moon
and then faded away sharply around a sphere-like edge -- a faint
crescent similar to a 1% new moon, with a bright spot like that
sometimes seen with a solar eclipse. The color at its brightest
spot was an off-white/yellow. The crescent was darker, almost
turning into a dark red before it completely faded away. The
crescent was bout half the size of an actual crescent moon,
which kind of dazzled me because this object must have been
rather large if it were fully exposed. Thanks to Peter Davenport
UFOcenter

Virginia - Three Flashing Objects Fly into Space During Eclipse

CHARLOTTESVILLE - The onlooker was watching the Lunar Eclipse
when a low flying plane caught his attention, and then a
shooting star that slowed down almost to a stop. He states, "It
was kind of flashing red and blue then it stopped; I have never
seen anything do that before.=E2=C7=D8 I was joined by three people
when I pointed. We could see flashing red and blue lights that
looked as a star. Two other flashing lights were stationary to
the right of the first object. They flashed differently at
first, then just like the first object they flashed blue and
red. Then all three moved in a weird zigzag pattern sort of like
a Z or S and shot up in space till we couldn't see them anymore.
I know this was no plane or star. I can't explain what they
were. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Georgia - Loud Sounds and Flashing Lights

MOULTRIE - On November 8, 2003, at 10 PM, the witness heard the
dogs in the neighborhood going crazy so he slipped on pants to
check on his dogs. Outside he heard a noise like a big airplane
passing over or a big truck driving by. He then noticed about 6
to 8 helicopter type things in the distance. The flying objects
had blue and red flashing lights and appeared to be helicopters,
but they were too high to be heard. The flashing lights could be
seen well enough to tell it was a light in the front and one in
the back. Apparently, the big noisemaker had stopped or landed.
He went into the house to get his girlfriend's opinion and we
both came back to look. Two of the flashing light objects were
going towards the noise and the rest were hovering like
helicopters. (Just, but still together). Thirty seconds later,
one of the flashing objects flew towards back towards the main
group but this time it was moving much faster than at first.
Then, the group started to break up while at least one stayed
and just flashed. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Florida - Strange Cone-Shaped Beam of Light

PARRISH - The couple were taking their dog for a walk on
November 5, 2003, at 8 PM, when they noticed a strange, bright
light shining through a section of clouds. The husband made the
comment, "Look at the landing lights from a plane reflecting on
the clouds.=E2=C7=D8 They waited for the plane to emerge, as the light
moved in their direction. It was like watching the light from a
flashlight and as the person moves toward you, the cone-shaped
beam gets larger and brighter. This beam was getting VERY bright
and I kept thinking that the clouds must really be reflecting
that light because I've seen planes in cloudy conditions and
they've never even remotely resembled this. As the light finally
reached the edge of the clouds, it just seemed to melt away
leaving only a line of cloud/smoke that continued the same
direction of movement. There was no plane, no craft or any
evidence that anything was there. Thanks to Peter Davenport
UFOcenter

Michigan - UFOs seen during Eclipse

DETROIT -- Randy H. reports, "There were clear and cold weather
conditions on November 8, 2003. My wife and I were looking at
the eclipse with our 10X42 binoculars when I saw a formation of
four maybe five grayish small jet-shaped crafts moving together
fast and quiet heading east at about 8:15 PM. I quickly focused
on four about a second and they were gone! I would only guess
they were going 700-900 MPH. To me they had to have
been...UFO's. No lights on these craft." Thanks to UFO Wisconsin
Report by Randy H.Vaid a science fiction author UFO
Wisconsin.com/

Illinois -Flying Triangle During Eclipse

HARVARD - The observer went out to watch the eclipse of the moon
on November 8, 2003, at 8 PM and noticed a low flying aircraft
to the southeast that had a row of lights with two large bright
white lights at the rear. There was also a flashing light at the
top and the craft made no noise. It turned south, and the rear
lights appeared almost an inch apart. It was flying too low to
be a commercial aircraft and appeared very large with lights on
its side and rear. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Oklahoma - Hundreds of Huge Fire Flies

HENNESSEY -- My daughter and I were outside lying down on the
trampoline a little after 9 PM, watching huge thunderheads
forming towards the west in late. September 2003. We saw
hundreds of little red lights darting back and forth, up and
down. We watched them for at least 15 minutes, and then we
noticed, as the lighting got closer, they scattered like
fireflies and disappeared. They looked round. They were about
the size of an aspirin held up at arm's length. In my work in
the aviation industry, theses were not planes or satellites.
Thank you, Shelley Ritter --- Hitchcock, Ok

California - Flying Triangle Spotted During Eclipse

HAYWARD - The eyewitness was checking out the eclipse on
November 8, 2003, about 9 PM, when he saw a shadow like object
that flew into the illumination of the moon. It had a triangular
shape and was moving a pretty good pace. It would have been
about the size of an eraser on the end of a pencil if you were
to hold it at arm's length. Thanks to Peter Davenport

SACRAMENTO -- The observer states, "The object I saw at 12:30
AM, on October 31, 2003, was a falling blue glowing light with a
white shadow behind it. This object was falling from the dark
sky, but it's light was very bright, it had actually a sphere of
a triangle or arrow shape, it was moving really fast downward
and then it was gone. This only lasted a few minutes. I was
sitting on my patio when I saw this. I knew it was not a star
for this was not like a falling star. This object kept falling
and moving really fast. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Oregon - Witness Claims F-15 Fighters Approach Sphere

SPRINGFIELD -- The witness states, "We were driving when my
girlfriend noticed objects in the rearview mirror." They
continued over us in front of the windshield view. She was
frantic and upset with me not seeing them. So we pulled over
into a parking lot, for about one minute and we didn't see
anything. It was very cloudy so when they came back in view we
could tell that they were very low. They moved very slowly
without a sound that we could hear. The one in front was about
the size of a plane. The one behind it was massive, about one
hundred yards or bigger. It was BIG! There we're no lights
visible, both objects were a dark or gray like color. We
confirmed with one another that they were not aircraft that we
could relate not helicopters, not planes, nor blimps. All I can
say we had an eerie feeling and did not know for certain what we
had seen. They traveled north at the same slow speed until we
couldn't see them anymore. Thanks to Peter Davenport

PORTLAND -- A young woman reports that as she was entering
traffic on Interstate 5 at the Lombard Exit, about three miles
south of Portland International Airport on November 6, 2003, at
11:30 PM, when she noticed cars stopped with their occupants
looking at the sky. She saw a prominent sphere, hovering
seemingly motionless in the sky, and two of what she thinks were
military fighter-type aircraft, possibly F-15's, were circling,
and flying in the proximity to the peculiar looking sphere. She
emphasized that the jets were quite low, and flying in a fashion
that left no doubt they were chasing the sphere. She did not
obtain contact information from any of the other witnesses or
contact local authorities. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Canada - Continuing Problems for Abductee Family.

KELOWNA, B.C. - Investigator Brian Vike reports, "Since July 31,
2003, after a UFO encounter, missing time and disturbing
episodes which followed, one of the women has continued to have
medical problems.=E2=C7=D8 Cynthia continues to have a constant
feeling of pressure on her head and neck and is becoming worse
as weeks go by. On November 8, 2003, Cynthia became cold as her
body temperature dropped to 35.2 C. two degrees below normal.
She called the hospital, a nurse informed her that it sounded
like hypothermia was setting in. The color of Cynthia's skin
changed to become almost whitish/gray. She was freezing to the
point where she felt paralyzed and her heart was beating
irregularly and slowing to 44 beats per minute. Cynthia's
daughter is also experiencing an irregular heart rate as well.

On November 8, 2003, Cynthia's daughter went to sleep and had a
vivid dream about being in some type of vehicle with two beings.
She felt that they were taking her somewhere that wasn't the
place to be, so in her "dream" she jumped from the vehicle and
landed on the ground hitting her right leg and rolling. She woke
up Sunday morning, with extreme pain in her knee. She was fine
the night before, and during the night the cartilage in her
right knee was ripped/torn and she has to be on crutches for a
while until it heals up. The doctor asked the girl if she had
taken part in any sporting activities, or goofing around with
friends, "She replied no"! Both her and her daughter are craving
salted products and are extremely thirsty. Both mother and
daughter are totally exhausted, and since then they haven't
slept. Cynthia said, how can a person who is sleeping soundly in
their bed wake up in the morning with a torn cartilage in her
right knee? I have to agree with her. Very strange indeed.

Cynthia mentioned that a couple of nights before her daughter
awaken at 3:00 AM, to a loud and very strange sound coming from
the orchard. The dogs in the area were barking and she was so
frightened she pulled the covers over her head. The next night
she was awakened at 4 AM, to the same sound. It was dark and she
couldn't see anything and started clapping her hands and the
sound eventually stopped. Cynthia went back to bed, but the
noise returned. HBCC UFO Note: Hypothermia has not been reported
after other abductions.

VANCOUVER -- The witness looked up at the clear night sky at 3
AM, on October 31, 2003, and saw a space ship right out of the
original TV show "Lost in Space " The eyewitness says, "That is
what it looked like to me, lights, red, orange, green, blue,
yellow and white rotating under and around the side. Many more
lights than any conventional, night flying, airplanes would
have. Not real bright but like Christmas tree lights rotating.
No sound, eerily silent, and hovering with almost a slight
wobble from too low a speed. It had to be enormous in size and
then it passed behind a building. This would have been visible
to anyone outside at 3 AM, near English Bay Stanley Park area.
Its altitude was very low, only a few hundred feet, over the
water." Thanks to Brian Vike, Director CANADA HBCC

Argentina - Two UFOs And A Cattle Mutilation

BUENOS AIRES -- On November 1, 2003, two luminous discs were
seen floating over Argentina's capital during the day. One of
the objects was floating near the moon for several minutes,
while the other accelerated swiftly to the northern end of the
city and remained stationary for several minutes. Then, the two
UFOs flew slowly north in formation and were videotaped for ten
minutes. Also last week, "a cattle mutilation was reported in
Rio Cuarto province," about 400 kilometers (250 miles) southwest
of Buenos Aires, "on a ranch leased by Sra.Viviana Olivares. The
cow was found in a canyon 25 meters (83 feet) deep and 9.3
meters (31 feet) wide." Midway through Canyon El Naranjo "there
lay a female bovine 5 to 6 years old, mixed breed, black in
color. Missing were the left eye, the tongue, the left ear, all
of the facial tissues." The case is being investigated by
Argentinian ufologists Mario Luis Bracamonte and Dante Guerrero
Merhi. (Thanks to Circulo Ovniologico Riocuartense para estos
informes.)

Italian UFO Reports On The Rise

The Italian Center for UFO Studies reports there has been an
increase in the observations of UFOs by readers of the monthly
magazine "Focus". During the month of September alone, letters
and e-mail messages sent to the most widely-circulated Italian
monthly, reporting sightings of UFOs and other strange celestial
phenomena, quickened to a pace of one every two days: more than
doubling the mean of the preceding months. "Focus" Magazine, a
leader in the sector of publications devoted to play a key role
in gathering and analyzing of major technological and scientific
data Thanks to: Edoardo Russo Centro Italiano Studi UFOlogici
http://www.arpnet.it/UFO/ultime.htm

Judge Roy Moore Fired for belief in God & Ten Commandments

Chuck Baldwin writes, "I was in attendance at Alabama Chief
Justice Roy Moore's trial in Montgomery November 11, and 12.
"Trial" is not really the proper word, a better word is
"inquisition." There was never a doubt that the "judges" had
made up their minds to remove Chief Justice Moore from the bench
before the proceedings ever began. Moore's attorneys had some 20
pieces of evidentiary material that they could have presented.
This was denied. There were also several credible witnesses,
including former Alabama Governor Fob James whose testimony was
denied. The trial took upon itself a distinctive tone of
inquisition when Alabama Attorney General Bill Pryor questioned
Chief Justice Moore. Here is an exchange between Pryor and Moore
taken from the official transcript of the trial: Pryor: Mr.
Chief Justice? And your understanding is that the Federal court
ordered that you could not acknowledge God; isn't that right?
Moore: Yes. Pryor: And if you resume your duties as Chief
Justice after this proceeding, you will continue to acknowledge
God as you have testified that you would today - Moore: That's
right.  Pryor: - no matter what any other official says? Moore:
Absolutely. (Chief Justice Moore then elaborated.) Pryor: The
only point I am trying to clarify, Mr. Chief Justice, is not
why, but only that, in fact, if you do resume your duties as
Chief Justice, you will continue to do that [acknowledge God]
without regard to what any other official says; isn't that
right?  Moore: (He responds by listing numerous examples of the
public acknowledgement of God, and concluded answering the
question.) I think you must.

Bill Pryor was demanding that Chief Justice Roy Moore to not
acknowledge God! Pryor did not even refer to the Ten
Commandments. He repeatedly asked Moore if he would continue to
acknowledge God. To acknowledge God was deemed an impermissible
activity and for this Roy Moore was removed as Alabama Chief
Justice. The point that all Americans must understand is that
Chief Justice Roy Moore was removed from the bench, not for
committing any crime, not for participating in unethical
conduct, and not even for posting the Ten Commandments in the
Alabama Judicial Building. He was removed from office for
acknowledging God! Americans must understand that people such as
judge Myron Thompson and Alabama Attorney General Bill Pryor
actually believe that the public acknowledgement of God is
illegal activity. Even more dangerous, they believe that a
federal judge's order, not the U.S. Constitution, is the supreme
law of the land.

The removal of Chief Justice Roy Moore as Alabama Supreme Court
Chief Justice is a travesty of justice, and an insult to the
voters of Alabama! It is also painfully obvious that since the
American inquisition has begun, it is now time for an American
reformation to elect Roy Moore as governor and by Congress to
put a stop to these black-robed inquisitors!  Let the
reformation begin. Thanks to :chuck@chuckbaldwinlive.com
http://toogoodreports.com/column/general/baldwin/20031116-
fss.htm

Editor's Note: If your belief in God is grounds for removal from
your job, then your freedom to believe in UFOs or anything not
approved by the courts will also become limited. The US has
become a great nation under the motto - "In God We Trust.=E2=C7=D8
When a court can deny the rights of Ray Moore, Alabama's Supreme
Court judge, based on his belief in God, your rights are, also,
in jeopardy. Also, without God's blessing, it is my opinion that
our nation is in grave danger.

Pine Bush, New York - The Dimensional Doorway

Vinny Polise writes, "For more than a century has had a full
array of UFO and paranormal activity." In driving through the
surrounding towns of the small rural community of Pine Bush,
forty-five minutes from New York City, one would never guess
that there is an active portal full of UFOs, ghosts, and
paranormal activity. Researchers such as Bruce Cornet and the
late Ellen Crystall have attempted to capture what had been
occurring in Pine Bush. Other locals along with myself have
witnessed more then a few unusual events in the nighttime sky. I
have created "The Pine Bush Experience=E2=C7=D8 (www.pinebushUFO.com),
so the public can read about what is going on in the lower
Hudson Valley. When I began going to Pine Bush, I was just as
skeptical as the next person. However, as my experiences grew, I
realized that Pine Bush and the surrounding areas are a "hot
bed.=E2=C7=D8 Since the 1980's, crafts continue to be seen in the area
centered on the Old Jewish Cemetery outside of Pine Bush. I have
developed a closeness with these entities and their crafts. My
website has multiple photos of bizarre airborne phenomenon. I
feel the relationship has grown with these entities and their
crafts, and they have invited me and others to photograph their
activity and technology. There is a terrific support group that
meets the first Wednesday of the month. For info: contact 1-845-
564-0322 or email me at Sightings@pinebushUFO.com. or at Vinny
Polise, P.O. Box 197, Franklin Lakes, NJ 07417.

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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 19

                           Re: Trindade - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:46:28 -0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:37:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade - Gevaerd


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:40:19 +0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade

>>From: A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:02:10 -0200
>>Subject: Re: Trindade

<snip>

>In my time I have known personally and interacted with Olavo
>Fontes, Allen Hynek, Donald Keyhoe, and many others, including
>hundreds of UFO witnesses whom I have personally interviewed. (I
>even met you!)

>Compared to armchair pseudo-ufologists who merely second-guess
>everything without personal investigaton and interviewing, those
>of us who have actually studied cases intensively surely know a
>lot more about the possibilities of hoax versus reality.

>Only by making totally unjustified skeptical assumptions can the
>psycho-socials advance a hoax hypothesis in this case.


Dear Dick,

You and the gentlemen you mention (Hynek, Keyhoe, Fontes) are
true legends in Ufology. I have also met some of them personally
and interacted with them. Specially Irene Granchi, whose example
I always follow. I learned since the very beginning of my
activities in Ufology to respect people like you guys. I believe
that "my generation" of ufologists do that in general, and they
really should. But younger generations don't, and this is a
shame.

It happens all over the world, I am afraid. Most of new people
to this field start their activities with no consistent basis,
only for curiosity and after only reading a few books and having
personally investigated no case at all. I am afraid that most
armchair researchers from the internet era missed the point. And
the point is that: doesn't matter what you do or try to do, if
you really wanna know the UFO phenomena, you get to go to the
field.


A. J.







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 19

                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:27:48 -0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:26:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:32:28 +0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 07:46:06 -0200
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

<snip>

>>One has to know what he speaks. You should perform a greater
>>investigation of the case, interviewing the people that
>>remained alive and checking out the military docs to accomplish
>>you task.

>>Why don't you?

>Be happy to. Can you give me sources and names, also air fare to
>Brazil and accomodation, as, unlike Wendy Connors seem to
>believe, the massive profits I make from Magonia magazine do not
>allow me to travel around the world to do investigations, other
>than by reading reports by reputable investigators such as Olave
>Fontes which are available to me in published sources.

I am sorry, man. No can do! You will have to do that by your own
means or, as many other people do, rely on reputable researchers
who do that by their own means and honestly report what they
find.

A. J.







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Nov > Nov 19

                     Roswell Crash Monument Inscription

From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc90405@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:09:31 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:00:57 -0500
Subject: Roswell Crash Monument Inscription


The Roswell Daily Record has an article about the Roswell crash
monument. The article can be found at:

http://www.roswell-record.com/archives/070703/news07.html

According to the article, the monument is located at "the Corona
'debris field'" "[o]n a rocky hilltop about 65 miles north of
the city."  The text engraved on the monument's surface states:

"In July of the year 1947 a craft of unknown origin spread
debris over this site. Witnesses would report materials of
unearthly nature.

"In September of the year 2002 the Sci-Fi Channel brought
scientists from the University of New Mexico to search this
ground for evidence of that fateful night.

"Be it observed, that whatever the true nature of what has
respectfully become known as the Roswell Incident, humankind has
been forever drawn to the stars. Dedicated July 5, 2003."






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Nov > Nov 19

                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:39:04 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:17:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Harney


>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:55:03 -0400
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>Here we go again!

>Another skeptic attack on the Trindade Case.

>During the 2nd UFO Symposium in Brasilia, Brazil on April 17-21,
>1983, we had the opportunity to have dinner with Mr. and Mrs.
>Almiro Barauna. At the table: Dr. Hynek, Irene Granchi, Leo
>Sprinkle, Cintia Lubilus, Carlos Reyes and myself.

>From the taped conversation I would like to point out some
>interesting data:

>1) Witness, Air Force Captain Viegas (it sounded like that)
>affirmed that the UFO wobble twice.

>2) The ships radar detected the UFO twice: i) The day before, on
>Jan 15, for 15 minutes and ii) before the sighting on Jan 16.

>3) During the sighting, all electrical systems on the ship went
>down for half hour.

>Were the Air Force Captain and the radar operator part of
>the hoax?

>Did someone shut down the electric power of the ship for half
>hour as part of the hoax?

>Did all 48 witnesses conspire with Barauna in the hoax?

Yes, but all this information comes from Barauna; where is the
independent confirmation of it? For example, it was Barauna who
said that there were 48 witnesses, but at least two of the
Brazilian newspapers said that there were no officers or sailors
on deck at the time of the alleged incident. So someone was
lying or mistaken.

How did Barauna manage to count the precise number of witnesses,
as well as busily taking photographs? And what happened to these
witnesses? All we ever hear about them is what Barauna said they
saw. Of course it would not have been possible to trace all of
them (assuming they existed), but surely a few could have been
interviewed and their independent testimony published.


John Harney







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 19

             Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:47:21 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:05:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - McGonagle


>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:59:02 -0000
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 20:56:04 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

<snip>

Hello Roy, List,

I am responding to some accusations levelled by Roy about me
on-list, not to the thread in general.

>Yes Joe, I believe ET has arrived here on planet earth.

If I understand you correctly, you mean to the exclusion of any
other possible solution, eg time travel/interdimensional
phenomena. This is my understanding, since you don't mention any
alternatives, and I did mention some in my original post, so if
I am "pre-thinking your assumptions on all UFO cases you come
across" it is because your answer is incomplete.

Do you still claim to be open-minded, or is your open-mindedness
only the case where something appears to support your
preconceived ideas? To quote you from an earlier post, "now who
is not being open minded, me or you?".

>>I don't know, why don't you check the archives and find out? Or
>>if you can't be bothered, ask Andy and he might tell you. I'm
>>not interested.

>Strange answer, in one mail you defend Andy Roberts to the hilt,
>and give us facts on his character, and now you are "not
>Interested"?

Comprehension Check

I got involved with this thread initially to agree with you that
Andy's statements about drug abuse were "totally irresponsible"
and went so far as to say that if I were a prospective employer,
I would not consider an application from him. I also expressed
the view that Andy would not meet my criteria for "closure". If
that is "backing him to the hilt", then please don't ever "back
me to the hilt". I went on to point out that it was not Andy,
but Max Burns who is bent on publicly tainting ufology with a
drugs connection. It is Burns who claims that he was falsely
convicted, not Andy. It was Burns who dragged up a 27-year-old
offence, not Andy. You are pointing your gun in the wrong
direction and when it goes off, you will probably shoot yourself
in the foot. If you really believe (oops!) that MI5 is
conducting a smear campaign against British ufologists, then the
prime suspect is surely Burns?

>>First, you and Max may like to familiarise yourselves with the
>>following extract from the Rehabilitation of offenders act 2001,
>>Chapter 6:

>Please, I am sure Max can defend himself on this List, I am
>writing about this topic, purely on the basis of mass-hypocrisy
>within ufology, something you seem unable to grasp, as your bias
>in your mails has shown.

Hypocrisy Check

You condemn a man for his private views which have only been
expressed in response to the dredging-up of a 27-year-old
conviction, yet maintain support for a recently released drug
dealer (the one doing the dredging). I suggest that it is you
who seem to be unable to grasp the meaning of hypocrisy. My
attitude is demonstrably consistent, I am critical of both Burns
and Roberts in regard to their non-ufological activities.

<snip>

>>Yes, I think that you should do so, and report back any
>>instances that you believe (oh, there's that word again!)
>>indicate that Andy has hallucinated any facts due to narcotic
>>abuse. You obviously have plenty of time in which to carry out
>>this important task for the List.

>Personal insults are not needed Mr McGonagle.

Civility Check

No they are not, Mr. Hale. I eagerly await the outcome of your
detailed research on Andy Roberts' UpDates posts, sir!

<snip>

>I guess I am correct in my questions.

Expression Check

What do you mean by the above?


Regards,

Joe







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   Nov > Nov 19

                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:42:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:07:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:19:38 +0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:50:32 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>I would like to hear what other researchers (pro and con
>>Trindade) make of this startling new information which has
>>miraculously come to light fifty years after the events.

>No, John, it is just now coming to your lights. Clarification of
>details is an important part of continuing (or follow-up)
>investigation. Instead, Pelican logic says that anything that
>changes in what we think we know about a case demonstrates a
>negative conclusion. If it stayed constant, that would also
>demonstrate a negative conclusion. What is "fundamental" to the
>case (the large number of witnesses, many of whom, despite your
>protestations, have been identified; the concordance of eye-
>witness testimony and photographic evidence; the total lack of
>any negative testimony) seems to escape you. Why? The case _has_
>stood up to scrutiny for 45 years.

The circumstances under which Barauna claims to have taken the
photographs are pretty fundamental. This is what he told Olave
Fontes:

"It was on January 16, at 12:15 p.m. The ship was preparing to
leave the island, to come back to Rio. I was on the deck
observing the operations to take aboard the boat used in the
trips between the ship and the island ...

"I had my Rolleiflex 2.8 model E, which was kept inside an
aluminum box for protection against the corrosive effects of
water and salt. I had left by Leica with a telephoto lens in my
cabin a few moments before.

(So already we have a clear statement that he had left his
cabin. No question of seasickness)

"Suddenly, Mr. Amilar Vieira and Captain Viegas called me,
pointing to a certain spot in the sky and yelling about a bright
object which was approaching the island. At this same moment,
when I was still trying to see what it was, Lieutenant Homero
the ship's dentist came from the bow toward us, running,
pointing out to the sky and also yelling about an object he was
sighting. He was so disturbed and excited that he almost fell
down after colliding with a cable. Then I was finally able to
locate the object, by the flash (of light) it emitted. It was
already close to the island. It glittered at certain moments,
perhaps reflecting the sunlight, perhaps changing its own light.
I don't know. It was coming over the sea, moving toward the
point called the 'Gab Crest'. I had lost 30 seconds looking for
the object, but the camera was already in my hands, ready, when
I sighted it clearly silhouetted against the clouds. I shot two
photos before it disappeared behind the peak 'Desejado'."

Quite clear, no question, He was on the deck when the UFO was
first spotted. He was not seasick. He was not in his cabin.
There is no suggestion in Fontes' report that Barauna
demonstrated any failure of memory, confusion, etc.

But now Gavaerd tells us that:

"Barauna, who was a very reputable man and professional
photographer (enough to be officially invited by the Navy on
several expeditions), wasn't even on the deck of the Almirante
Saldanha when the UFO appeared in the horizon. He was sea-sick
at that moment and it was just after some of the crew members
saw the object that he was called upon to register the thing
with his camera."

We're not "clarifying details" here, we're talking about
something which changes the entire nature of the case. If a man
gives two such totally different versions of such a memorable
event, we must ask how reliably we can take any of his
testimony!

Apart from anything else, who was Barauna giving false
information to, Fontes or Gevaerd? Or both?

>What you really are saying is it can't be true, therefore it
>isn't true (non potest, ergo non est). Your entire evaluation of
>the case springs from this totally unjustified, illogical, and
>unscientific bald-faced assumption.

No, I'm just saying it hasn't been proved to be true.

>When all else fails, you (and John Harney) start asserting that
>we "believers" claim that everything unexplained is a spaceship.
>Obviously, you have not read our works very carefully or you
>would not say that.

This is the classic get-out of the "not-quite-ETHers". So, if
it's a physical, structured object, capable of rapid movement
and flipping around at great speed (according to Brad Sparks),
but it's not an extraterrestrial spacecraft, what else might it
have been? Any suggestions?

No, I'm not holding my breath, either.

>Absolutely zero factual evidence has been
>advanced to support the hoax hypothesis in this case,

... apart from all the inconsistencies in the case, including
this latest massive inconsistency in Barauna's reported
testimony.

>only
>negative surmises that clearly illustrate your "Jesuit logic"
>(as we used to call it in Philosophy); making unfounded
>assumptions and then drawing entirely "logical" (but false)
>conclusions from them.

I don't know about Jesuit logic, I was brought up a
Congregationalist.


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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   Nov > Nov 19

                     Re: Psychiatry & Ufology - Bassett

From: Steve Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:29:44 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:13:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychiatry & Ufology - Bassett


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:41:10 EST
>Subject: Psychiatry & Ufology

>Well now! Look what the cat dragged in!

>Well, seems I'm back to square one again and have hit a
>motherloade of data.

>After contemplating the connection of psychiatry and ufology I
>was hit by a ton of bricks when I remembered the late James V.
>Forrestal, First Secretary of Defense. I should have put two and
>two together as it hit home because Mr. Forrestal was a hometown
>guy who grew up in my neighborhood and I know his family. I'd
>forgotten about the institution he was illegally placed in but
>after reviewing the typical procedures of the psychiatric and
>government institutions of that time it all makes horrid sense.
>Quickly I found a report at the following website:

>http://www.thebird.org/host/dcdave/article4/030528.html

>I've since been contacted by numerous friends, all attorneys who
>I grew up with or are civic leaders from my hometown area who
>are all too familiar with psychiatric abuses. I mentioned the
>'abductee' and 'witness' issues and sure as heck they knew all
>about it. I think we need to do a major review of the affects of
>psychiatry on ufology.

>Ironic that the first victim was a man who dedicated himself to
>our safety.

>I am now going to prepare a massive report as I've been asked to
>do. From what I've been told so far, the abductees, witnesses,
>especially during the 50s-70s were done a great injustice.


Greg,

Two quick points:

1) This is a very, very good idea, and

2) please note that Peter Robbins has done extensive investigation
of the Forrestal case. You will want to touch base with him:

probbins@teamcpm.com

Best,

Steve Bassett







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   Nov > Nov 20

               Re: Roswell Crash Monument Inscription - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:44:47 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:34:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell Crash Monument Inscription - Rimmer


>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc90405@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:09:31 -0800 (PST)
>Subject: Roswell Crash Monument Inscription

>The Roswell Daily Record has an article about the Roswell crash
>monument. The article can be found at:

>http://www.roswell-record.com/archives/070703/news07.html

>According to the article, the monument is located at "the Corona
>'debris field'" "[o]n a rocky hilltop about 65 miles north of
>the city."  The text engraved on the monument's surface states:

>"In July of the year 1947 a craft of unknown origin spread
>debris over this site. Witnesses would report materials of
>unearthly nature.

>"In September of the year 2002 the Sci-Fi Channel brought
>scientists from the University of New Mexico to search this
>ground for evidence of that fateful night.

>"Be it observed, that whatever the true nature of what has
>respectfully become known as the Roswell Incident, humankind has
>been forever drawn to the stars. Dedicated July 5, 2003."

You cannot be Sirius!

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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                 Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:42:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:28:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:46:21 -0600
>Subject: Re: Psychosociological Researchers

>Oh, really. CUFOS recently passed through a financial crisis,
>and thanks to our friends (who do not include Magonia, which -
>amusingly to us - makes a point of not linking CUFOS to its
>website, though it also makes a point of making links to
>crackpot groups) we made it through for now.

It's there now Jerry. Not making a point, just an oversight, I'm
afraid. my apologies.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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   Nov > Nov 20

                          Science Museum UFO Debate

From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:16:44 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:32:24 -0500
Subject: Science Museum UFO Debate


List,

A UFO debate sponsored by the Science Museum, in London, will
take place on December 9. The debate will be held at the Dana
Centre, a newly-opened, purpose-built venue devoted to the
promotion of science.

The website is still under construction, but if you click on the
link below and navigate the site to find the December 9 event,
you'll find further details of the debate, position statements
from the speakers, etc.

http://www.danacentre.org.uk


Best wishes,

Nick Pope







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                          Re: Trinidade - Jonnaert

From: Thierry Jonnaert <thierry.jonnaert@pandora.be>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 01:40:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:45:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Trinidade - Jonnaert


Hi List,

Of course... all the circumstantial evidence seems to support
the UFO sighting as a real event... and I will ask all of you to
pay attention to other elements of this incredible encounter.

I told you already about the information of the Marine. The
officers were firmly convinced that they saw a flying disc...
and a flying disc was seen about 60 minutes later. All agreed
they saw the same round, disc-shaped craft. The same type of
silver disc was seen the weeks before and the same month of the
sighting, but not always on the same place.

A few days later, many people saw the same type of flying disc,
moving in the direction of the top of Desejado. They observed
the rotation. There was a rotation of a ring around the center
and compared to Saturn. They also observed a kind of green light
becoming stronger when the UFO went faster. The UFO was also
observed by the weather-station. This UFO was as big as a
DC-3... some men told to the newspapers.

All this was not told by Barauna but by many people, officers
etc. who were i. by the Newspapers etc. The same happened when
Barauna took the pictures some days before this sighting - ill
or not - and the Marine always kept the same vision about all
this. So... we not only have the pictures but also the
eyewitness account of the flight of an unconventional craft by
highly reliable observers - confirmed by the government of
Brazil. We have much more... the same type of flying disc was
also observed by all the men - or the most of them - from the
TRIUNFO, another ship on 2-01-58

The Minister of Marine Antonio Alves Camara talked with the
president, near Petropolis, and he confirmed that he was sure
the pictures of Barauna were not falsifications - United Press,
25 - 02 - 58, Rio de Janeiro! The Newspapers were writing that
the Marine confirmed the activity of a flying saucer or disc.

In reality... flying discs were also observed near Puerto Rico
those years, and it seems they did not forget the US since '47
(or many years before)! With all the desinformation by the CIA
and the Air Force in the US, we could start to believe flying
saucers or discs belong to the imagination... but it's the
contrary... and the FOIA documents delivered amazing and
convincing facts about all this.

For me it's certain... the Trindade-case is one of the best...
and the more you analyse the case, the more you should be
convinced that this is a real and strong case. The men with
doubts will always have doubts... but that's another problem.


Thierry Jonnaert

Belgium,
( a country where the government
helped the researchers or ufologists.)

Good luck with the research...







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                       Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax"

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:53:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:53:57 -0500
Subject: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax"





Source: Global Village News and Resources

http://www.gvnr.com/74/editorial.htm

Issue 74 - November 17, 2003

Pentagon Plans ET Hoax
Qaeda to ET's - The Search For Bogeymen

by
Steven M. Greer MD
Director, The Disclosure Project


Imagine this: It is the summer of 2001, and someone presents you
with a script for a movie or book that tells how a diabolical
terrorist plot unfolds wherein both 110 story World Trade Center
towers and part of the Pentagon are destroyed by commercial jets
hijacked and flown into those structures.

Of course you would laugh, and if you were a movie mogul or book
editor, reject it out of hand as ridiculous and implausible,
even for a fictional novel or movie. After all, how could a
commercial jet, being tracked on radar after two jets had
already hit the World Trade towers, make it through our air
defenses, into the most sensitive airspace in the world, and in
broad daylight on a crystal clear day, slam into the Pentagon!
And this in a country that spends over $ 1 billion a day to
defend itself! Absurd, illogical - nobody would swallow it!

Unfortunately, there are some of us who have seen these scripts
- and of far worse things to come - and we are not laughing.

One of the few silver linings to these recent tragedies it that
maybe - just maybe - people will take seriously, however far-
fetched it may seem at first, the prospect that a shadowy, para-
governmental and transnational entity exists that has kept UFOs
secret - and is planning a deception and tragedy that will dwarf
the events of 9/11.

The testimony of hundreds of government, military and corporate
insiders has established this: That UFOs are real, that some are
built by our secret 'black' shadowy govern ment projects and
some are from extraterrestrial civilizations, and that a group
has kept this secret so that the technology behind the UFO can
be withheld - until the right time. This technology can - and
eventually will - replace the need for oil, gas, coal, ionizing
nuclear power and other centralized and highly destructive
energy systems.

This 5 trillion dollar industry - energy and transportation - is
currently highly centralized, metered and lucrative. It is the
stuff that runs the entire industrialized world. It is the
mother of all special interests. It is not about money as you
and I think of it, but about geo-political power - the very
centralized power on which the current order in the world runs.
The world is kept in a state or roiling wars, endless poverty
for most of Earth's denizens and global environmental ruin, just
to prop up this evil world order.

As immense as that game is, there is a bigger one: Control
through fear. As Werner Von Braun related to Dr. Carol Rosin,
his spokesperson for the last 4 years of his life, a maniacal
machine - the military, industrial, intelligence, laboratory
complex - would go from Cold War, to Rogue Nations, to Global
Terrorism (the stage we find ourselves at today) to the ultimate
trump card: A hoaxed threat from space.

To justify eventually spending trillions of dollars on space
weapons, the world would be deceived about a threat from outer
space, thus uniting the world in fear, in militarism and in war.

Since 1992 I have seen this script unveiled to me by at least a
dozen well-placed insiders. Of course, initially I laughed,
thinking this just too absurd and far-fetched. Dr. Rosin gave
her testimony to the Disclosure Project before 9/11. And yet
others told me explicitly that things that looked like UFOs but
that are built and under the control of deeply secretive 'black'
projects, were being used to simulate - hoax - ET-appearing
events, including some abductions and cattle mutilations, t o
sow the early seeds of cultural fear regarding life in outer
space. And that at some point after global terrorism, events
would unfold that would utilize the now-revealed Alien
Reproduction Vehicles (ARVs, or reversed-engineered UFOs made by
humans by studying actual ET craft - see the book 'Disclosure'
by the same author) to hoax an attack on Earth.

Like the movie Independence Day, an attempt to unite the world
through militarism would unfold using ET as the new cosmic
scapegoat (think Jews during the Third Reich).

None of this is new to me or other insiders: The report from
Iron Mountain, NY, written in the 1960s, described the need to
demonize life in outer space so we could have a new enemy. An
enemy off-planet that could unite humans (in fear and war) and
that would prove to be the ultimate prop for the trillion dollar
military-industrial complex that conservative Republican
President and five star general Eisenhower warned us about in
1961 (no one was listening the n, either...).

So here is the post-9/11 script - one that will be played out
unless enough people are informed and the plan can be foiled
because they will be unable to fool a sufficient number of
citizens and leaders: After a period of terrorism - a period
during which the detonation of nuclear devices will be
threatened and possibly actuated, thus justifying expanding the
weaponization of space - an effort will ramp up to present the
public with information about a threat from outer space. Not
just asteroids hitting the Earth, but other threats. An
extraterrestrial threat.

Over the past 40 years, Ufology, as it is called, combined with
a mighty media machine, has increasingly demonized ETs via
fearsome movies like Independence Day, and pseudo-science that
presents alien kidnappings and abuse as a fact (in some circles)
of modern life. That some humans have had contact with ETs I
have no doubt; that the real ET contact has been subsumed in an
ocean of hoaxed accoun ts I am certain.

That is, real ET events are seldom reported out to the public.
The Machine ensures that the hoaxed, frightening and
intrinsically xenophobic accounts are the ones seen and read by
millions. This mental conditioning to fear ET has been subtly
reinforced for decades, in preparation for future deceptions.
Deceptions that will make 9/11 look trivial.

I write this now because I have recently been contacted by
several highly placed media and intelligence sources that have
made it clear to me that hoaxed events and story-lines are
imminent that will attempt to further ramp up the fear machine
regarding UFOs and ET s. After all, to have an enemy, you must
make the people hate and fear a person, a group of people, or in
this case an entire category of beings.

To be clear: the maniacal covert programs controlling UFO
secrecy, ARVs and related technologies - including those
technologies that can simulate ET events, ET abductions and the
like - plan to hijack Disclo sure, spin it into the fire of
fear, and roll out events that will eventually present ETs as a
new enemy. Do not be deceived.

This hogwash, already the stuff of countless books, videos,
movies, documentaries and the like, will attempt to glom onto
the facts, evidence and first-hand insider testimony of The
Disclosure Project, and on its coattails, deliver to the world
the cosmic deception that falsely portrays ETs as a threat from
space. Do not be deceived.

By commingling fact with fiction, and by hoaxing UFO events that
can look terrifying, the Plan is to eventually create a new,
sustainable, off-planet enemy. And who will be the wiser?

You will. Because now you know that after 60 years, trillions of
dollars and the best scientific minds in the world pressed into
action, a secretive, shadowy group - a government within the
government and at once fully outside the government as we know
it - has mastered the technologies, the art of deception and the
capability to launc h an attack on Earth, and make it look like
ET s did it. In 1997, I brought a man to Washington to brief
members of Congress and others about this plan. Our entire team
at the time met this man. He had been present at planning
sessions when ARVs - things built by Lockheed, Northrup et al,
and housed in secretive locations around the world - would be
used to simulate an attack on certain assets, making leaders and
citizens alike believe that there was a threat from space, when
there is none. (Before he could testify, his handlers spirited
him away to a secret location in Virginia until the briefing was
over...) Sound familiar? Werner von Braun warned of such a hoax,
as a pretext for putting war in space. And many others have
warned of the same.

Space based weapons are already in place - part of a secret
parallel space program that has been operating since the 1960s.
ARVs are built and ready to go (see the book 'Disclosure' and
the chapter with the testimony of Mark McCandlish et al). Space
holographic deception technologies are in place, tested and
ready to fire. And the Big Media is a pawn, now taking dictation
from the right hand of the king. I know this all sounds like
science fiction. Absurd. Impossible. Just like 9/11 would have
sounded before 9/11. But the unthinkable happened and may happen
again, unless we are vigilant.

Combine all of this with the current atmosphere of fear and
manipulation and there is a real risk of suspending our
collective judgment and our constitution.

But know this: If there was a threat from outer space, we would
have known about it as soon as humans started exploding nuclear
weapons and going into space with manned travel. That we are
still breathing the free air of Earth, given the galacticly
stupid and reckless actions of an out of control, illegal,
secret group, is abundant testimony to the restraint and
peaceful intentions of these visitors. The threat is wholly
human. And it is we who must address this t hreat, rein it in
and transform the current situation of war, destruction and
secret manipulation to one of true Disclosure and an era of
sustained peace. War in space, to replace war on Earth, is not
evolution, but cosmic madness. A world thus united in fear is
worse than one divided by ignorance. It is now time for the
great leap into the future, a leap that moves us out of fear and
ignorance and into an unbroken era of universal peace. Know that
this is our destiny. And it will be ours just as soon as we
choose it.

Steven M. Greer MD
Director, The Disclosure Project Albemarle County
Virginia June, 2002

The Disclosure Project
PO Box 2365
Charlottesville
VA 22902

http://www.disclosureproject.org

Global Village News and Resources
Copyright c. 2000-2003







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                   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:57:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:55:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Maccabee


>From: A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:10:02 -0200
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:39:06 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>Mori

>Since you are a Brazilian and live close to Sao Paulo and Rio,
>and you are "con" this case, maybe you could make  time to
>extend you investigations about Trindade and go into field. A
>lot can be gained if you decide to check out for the facts by
>yourself rather then only perform computer analyzes of prints of
>prints of Bara=FAna's photos.

>His widow lives in Niteroi and there is plenty info about the
>case and the witnesses' lives at some Navy offices, specially in
>Rio. Everything pertaining to the Amirante Saldanha ship is
>available as public records and can be consulted. Covo did some
>of the checking. Why don't you?

Is it possible to get some of the _other_ photos Baruna took
that day and developed on the ship or elsewhere? These might be
useful in determining the otpical characteristics of the camera
and the atmosphere.







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                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:43:49 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:36:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:53:23 -0600
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:33:24 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>>From: A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:10:02 -0200
>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

<snip>

>>>Since you are a Brazilian and live close to Sao Paulo and Rio,
>>>and you are "con" this case, maybe you could make  time to
>>>extend you investigations about Trindade and go into field. A
>>>lot can be gained if you decide to check out for the facts by
>>>yourself rather then only perform computer analyzes of prints of
>>>prints of Barauna's photos.

>>Such as Brad sparks is doing, you mean?

>I guess that when they're losing the arguments, pelicanists are
>reduced to this.  On the other hand, it may be that even though
>I've known Brad Sparks for, oh, maybe 25 years, I was unaware
>that he "lives close to Sao Paulo and Rio."  I'd always been
>under the impression that he lives in California. I look forward
>to John's producing the evidence that Brad has engaged in an
>outrageous hoax concerning his place of residence.

>Amazing the things you learn reading the, uh, interesting
>revelations that fall from a pelican-infested sky.

Oh, Jerry, what a joy it is to accuse you of being "ingenuous",
one of your favourite comments to throw at others. As I - still
- do not think you're stupid, you must have realised that it was
the "computer analyses of prints of Barauna's photographs" that
I suggested Sparks was doing.

But you worked that out really, didn't you?

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm






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                     Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:36:16 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:38:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:39:04 -0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:55:03 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>How did Barauna manage to count the precise number of witnesses,
>as well as busily taking photographs? And what happened to these
>witnesses? All we ever hear about them is what Barauna said they
>saw. Of course it would not have been possible to trace all of
>them (assuming they existed), but surely a few could have been
>interviewed and their independent testimony published.

Let's keep this in perspective. One, John is trying to change
the subject. Two, the subject is the utter absence of negative
witnesses, for which no explanation remotely satisfactory has
yet been offered.

If the case were a hoax, we'd know it by now. In fact, if the
case were a hoax, we'd have known it probably no later than
February 1958.

Meantime, pelicans still aren't flying over Trindade.


Jerry Clark







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                     Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Mori

From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:41:26 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:18:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Mori


>From: A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:40:36 -0200
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 00:54:42 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>You claimed that "Barauna ... wasn't even on the deck". If you
>>have sources to actually support that, and many other claims
>>you made, I don't know why you continue quoting sources who
>>deny them.

>Yes, I have sources,

If you do have AJ, then I repeat my question: why you keep
quoting sources that doesn't support your claims? And why did
you emphasize in that same post that there is no testimony
contradiction from Barauna, if your supposed 'other sources'
only contradict what he himself claimed, very clearly? Please,
do not take this as an offense, but from the obstrusive way you
are answering, I really think that you don't have sources for
your extraordinary claims, such as "Barauna wasn't even on the
deck". If you have, please, just show them.

>as you would as well if you decide to
>investigate the case rather than only support other researchers'
>findings.

I am investigating the case. I have interviewed, requested
official information, and looked for old material. I'm still
doing that. And I'm not "only" supporting other researchers'
findings (and it's very nice that you now seem to imply that
Martin Powell is a researcher who made findings, very different
from your previous opinions).

I made new claims and findings, like Sunderland was incorrect
(it's P1 that's inverted in relation to P2 and P3). The claims
and findings may be contested, or not, but I must humbly say
that they are indeed mine. Not that there's anything bad in
"only" supporting other researchers' findings, as Covo himself
made exactly that on his work on the Tijuca hoax, which you
praised so much. And with reason for that.

>I disagree. And it doesn't mean that I don't respect your
>opinion.

Oh, I'm relieved. I wondered if you would say again that I'm a
"jerk" ("babaca"), just as you did last year when I translated
Martin Powell's work to Portuguese and announced it. You also
wrote; "worse than a nobody called Powell wanting to end the
Trindade case, is an idiot like you promoting his 'wonderful'
work in Brazil, as if it was the wheel's invention. You need
treatment", so it's very nice that you now respect my opinions.

>But your opinion is a opinion only, while Covo's was real
>investigation.

I thought Covo's published work was just a review, as you wrote
in the introduction. Anyway, I don't know why you keep saying
that I'm not investigating, as you know nothing of what I'm
currently doing, except what I already publicized. I am
investigating the case.

You should know how it's not that easy to get much important and
really new evidence on this, almost fifty year old case, as you
yourself asked on internet Lists if anyone had a copy of "Mundo
Ilustrado" with Barauna's photos/articles of almost fifty years
ago to copy or give to you. "Armchair researchers from the
internet era", you wrote to Richard Hall, huh?

>He met Barauna personally and several other witnesses and
>officers involved in the case. He looked into the files. He went
>to the field.

But somehow didn't even mention any of these meetings and field
work on his published work, last year. No mention at all, as
anyone will be able to see when you make it available, and in
English for everyone, which is a nice thing to do. Thank you for
telling me and others that he did all that, and I hope he will
publish the details of what he did soon, that would also be very
nice.

Mori







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                         New Hudson Valley UFO Site

From: Vinny Polise <Pinebushufo@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:06:53 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:33:05 -0500
Subject: New Hudson Valley UFO Site



I've just finished created 2 sites, one for dial-up, the other
for high-speed access, at:

http://www.pinebushufo.com

If anyone has any information, any experiences, videos,
pictures, etc., about any Hudson Valley sighting please contact
me at:

Sightings@pinebushufo.com

I'd like to talk with people that have been in the area and
witnessed not only craft but other strange phenomena.

Any questions or comments, good or bad, I'd like to hear them
all.

Also check out the message boards.....

Thanks and enjoy,


http://www.pinebushufo.com






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                     Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Cunha

From: Pedro Luz Cunha <pplcunha@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:02:09 -0300 (ART)
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:24:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Cunha


>From: Kentaro Mori
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:52:13 -0300
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: A.J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:10:02 -0200
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>Since you are a Brazilian and live close to Sao Paulo and Rio,
>>and you are "con" this case, maybe you could make time to
>>extend you investigations about Trindade and go into field. A
>>lot can be gained if you decide to check out for the facts by
>>yourself rather then only perform computer analyzes of prints of
>>prints of Bara=FAna's photos.

>Who said that I am only doing that? I am not. And who said that
>the analyses I made were of "prints of prints"? They are of
>first generation prints.

Uhh... Are they first generation prints? What are the sources
you have to supply first generation prints and from what
negatives? I wish I had first generation prints to see.


Pedro Luz Cunha






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                      NASA's 'Analysis' Of STS-48 Video

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:27:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:08:32 -0500
Subject: NASA's 'Analysis' Of STS-48 Video


The NASA Congressional Liaison Office wrote a letter to
Congresswoman Helen Bentley in November, 1991 (two months after
the STS-48 mission) in response to an inquiry Bentley had made
on behalf of Donald Ratsch, the person who originally noticed
the objects in the STS-48 video. Ratsch wanted NASA's opinion
about what the objects were. I got a copy of the letter under
FOIA after CSICOP spokesman James Oberg had made a big deal
about how important it was a few months ago on the list.

The letter mentioned nothing about comparing thruster firing
telemetry to the video time stamps to determine if there was a
cause/effect relation (which is just as well since the time
stamps turned out to be highly dubious, to put it mildly). In
the same request, I had also asked for the report on the
scientific analysis on which the conclusions given in the NASA
letter were based. Apparently, there was no scientific report
available because the letter was all they sent me.

Here is the letter's description of how NASA experts reached
their "scientific" conclusion:


"The Johnson Space Center (JSC), which is responsible for
official videotapes of all manned missions, has informed us that
a team of scientists reviewed the videotapes in question. The
team, Dr. Andrew Potter, Chief, Space Science Branch, Flight
Science Support Office; Dr. Karl Henize, astronomer and former
astronaut; and Mr. Mark Mulrooney, staff astronomer, Lockheed
Engineering and Sciences Co., looked at all the video sequences
flagged by Mr. Ratsch and found his description of the events to
be accurate. However, they do not agree with his interpretation
that they represent UFOs."


So that's it. They got together a few people who simply _looked_
at the video. No frame-by-frame examination or anything that
could be considered even a cursory scientific examination. A
bunch of people watching television is not science, even if they
are scientists and even if you call them a "team".

The description of the "main event" (the one that has drawn the
most attention) is called "Event 2" in the letter is as follows:


"Event 2: September 15, 1991 20:30-20:45 GMT: At this time, the
spacecraft was flying over the darkened Earth, but was itself in
sunlight. The objects seen are orbiter-generated debris,
illuminated by the Sun. As noted in Mr. Ratsch's account, there
is a flicker of light on the screen, following which, the
particles abruptly change course. The flicker of light is the
result of firing of the attitude thrusters on the orbiter, and
the abrupt motions of the particles result from the impact of
gas jets from the thrusters."


Nothing new there. Unsurprisingly, the "team" failed to notice
the anomalous trajectories of the objects in the video and the
fact that the light flash was not oriented  correctly to have
come from a shuttle thruster.

There were three other STS-48 video sequences besides "event 2"
that the "team" looked at on TV. And the conclusions on what
they showed were (1) shuttle debris, (2) shuttle debris, (3)
shuttle debris, and (4) shuttle debris.

I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of these events was, in
fact, caused by shuttle debris. If you give the same answer for
any question asked, it'll eventually be the correct answer for
something.

The only importance this letter has that I can see is that it
demonstrates what NASA will pass off as 'expert' opinion when it
concerns a subject they want to avoid. It wasn't a cover-up; it
was just a brush-off.






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                         Radar UFO Over White House?

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:48:39 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:37:54 -0500
Subject: Radar UFO Over White House?


CNN is reporting today that the "aircraft" detected Thursday
near White House airspace was actually a "radar anomaly" that
was caused by a "flock of birds."

NORAD radar can be confused by birds? And some people thought
Phil Klass was just making this stuff up!

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/South/11/20/wh.airspace/index.html

Darn clever, those UFOs!







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                      Pelican Migration Passes Our Way

From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:55:53 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:40:35 -0500
Subject: Pelican Migration Passes Our Way


A headline in yesterday's Home and Garden section of the
local newspaper reads, "Pelican migration passes our way".

It goes on to mention various attributes of the birds,
such as habitat, nesting, etc. For "Sound" it says: "Baby
pelicans make a screeching or hissing sound, but adult birds
are mostly silent."

You can listen to the sounds of the American White Pelican
by dialing 612-673-9050 (USA - Minnesota), and 1610 at the
prompt. The recording is mercifully brief.

Dave Morton








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                Re: BLM Roswell Site FOIA Response - Chapman

From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc90405@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:08:03 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:54:41 -0500
Subject: Re: BLM Roswell Site FOIA Response - Chapman


>From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 17:18:14 -0500
>Subject: BLM Roswell Site FOIA Response

Previously, Larry Bryant filed a FOIA request to the BLM seeking
"a copy of any and all records pertaining to the Standard
Archeological Plan for the excavation of the Roswell UFO-crash-
landing debris field (designated as NM site No. 1000000)." In
response, the BLM provided him with a copy of the 15 page
document, redacted specific site location information, but
initially failed to cite Exemption 3 of the FOIA to justify the
redaction of the location information. As a result, by letter
dated April 4, 2003, the BLM gave Mr. Bryant 30 days to appeal.
See:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/mar/m06-006.shtml

I wonder if Mr. Bryant or anyone else has considered making a
demand for the dig location and other Roswell crash
investigation information to the University of New Mexico under
the New Mexico Inspection of Public Records Act? See:

http://www.ago.state.nm.us/PIO/Public_Records_Act/IPRA2002.pdf

It appears that UNM _may_ have to respond to such a request. The
archeological project at the suspected Roswell UFO crash site
was not conducted by William Doleman, Ph.D. in his individual
capacity, but by the University of New Mexico's Office of
Contract Archeology. See:

http://www.unm.edu/news/Releases/02-11-05UFO.htm

According to the New Mexico Office of the Attorney General,
"[t]he law requires open access to almost all public records in
state and local government with few exceptions." See:

http://www.ago.state.nm.us/PIO/Public_Records_Act/public_records_act.html

It appears that: (1) UNM would be a "public body" under the Act
(see sec. 14-2-6(C)); and (2) the UNM report would be a "public
record" under the Act (see sec. 14-2-6(D)). Further, with the
possible exception of federal preemption mentioned in the New
Mexico Attorney General's analysis of the Act, it does not
appear on initial inspection that any of the exceptions apply.

I ask the above question not to offer a definite opinion on the
matter. I just thought of this approach, and honestly don't know
if it could work. I simply want to know if anyone else has
thought of it, has pursued or is pursuing the matter, or if I'm
out to lunch on this.

-- Charles Chapman






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                     Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Mori

From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 00:47:48 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:33:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Mori


>From: Pedro Luz Cunha <pplcunha@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:02:09 -0300 (ART)
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: Kentaro Mori
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:52:13 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>who said that
>>the analyses I made were of "prints of prints"? They are of
>>first generation prints.

>Uhh... Are they first generation prints?

Yep, that's what I wrote on the work I made openly available
here:

http://www.geocities.com/airsmither/trind.htm

And that's what I wrote in the message to which you just
replied.

>What are the sources you have to supply first generation
>prints and from what negatives?

That's covered in the work I've made openly available. Take a
look at it, it is at the very beggining, and, again, at the end.

>I wish I had first generation prints to see.

Gevaerd said he has first generation prints, given to him by
Barauna himself, and even made first print scans, which he said
he also forwarded to several "international" researchers "to
stop someone like Powell denigrating one of our [Brazilian]
most important and documented cases". ("Se nos, os ufologos
brasileiros, nao impedirmos um Powell da vida de denegrir um de
nossos mais importantes a documentados casos, quem o fara?").

If you allow me to suggest, you may ask him to show them, or the
scans, to you.


Cordially,

Mori








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   Nov > Nov 21

               Re: Mayor Cancels Alien Landing Over Abduction

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:16:12 -0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:31:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Mayor Cancels Alien Landing Over Abduction



>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>To: <- UFO - UpDates Subscribers ->
>Date: Friday, November 21, 2003 4:06 PM
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Mayor Cancels Alien Landing Over Abduction Fears

>Source: Ananova.com

>http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_840423.html

>Friday 21st November 2003

>Mayor Cancels Alien Landing Over Abduction Fears

>The mayor of a Brazilian town says he has cancelled a planned
>landing by an alien spaceship during this week's Brazil v Peru
>football match.

>Elcio Berti told Estado de Sao Paulo online: "I cancelled the
>landing because I was worried they might abduct one of the
>Brazilian footballers."

>Mr Berti, the Mayor of Bocaiuva do Sul, claims to be in regular
>touch with aliens and says they are helping to fund a UFO
>landing pad he's building in the town.

>The mayor first hit the headlines when he issued a decree
>banning all birth control methods in Bocaiuva do Sul to try and
>boost the number of pregnancies to increase federal funding.


Obviously, Elcio Berti is not to be taken seriously.....

He is just a joker, a _serious_ one.

He is planning to build a ufoport in his town...


A. J.







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   Nov > Nov 21

                 Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:40:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:01:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - Velez


>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:29:28 -0800
>Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax"

>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>To: <- UFO - UpDates Subscribers ->
>>Date: Thursday, November 20, 2003 4:53 AM
>>Subject: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax"

>This is for all in my family who are: Policemen, Firefighters,
>Sailors and Marines.

>Greer, you have stepped in it this time.

<snip>

>Folks, I can't finish this comment/reply to the good doctor's
>rant that borders on Bill Cooper.

It does sound like Bill Cooper inspired paranoia. I have a
pertinent question for Greer, 'how does accusing the government
of such a deceptive and essentially 'evil' plot help to create
the good will, or create the channels of communication needed to
secure disclosure? It seems like the 'self-appointed' head of
the disclosure effort in this country spends more time on 'other
things,' such as these paranoid rants and the publicizing of his
new 'free-energy' company, than he does on securing
Congressional Disclosure Hearings on the subject of UFOs.

For Keerists sake, aren't congressional hearings into UFOs
supposed to be the point of this whole exercise? Isn't it the
ultimate goal? Correct me if I'm wrong. And if I'm not wrong,
then somebody please explain to me what issues like 'free-
energy' companies, space based weapons and now public paranoid
ranting about unsubstantiated government plots to deceive
everybody with a fake alien invasion, has to do with securing
congressional hearings on UFOs?

The few good/solid witnesses he had must be thinking, 'What the
hell did I stick my neck out (in public) if not to help secure
congressional hearings? I'll bet they all feel pretty crappy
about hitching their carts to Greer's 'Star.'

Greer's tactics have been _consistently_ counter-productive and
self-destructive from day one. His _every_action_ thus far seems
intentionally/purposefully intended to sabotage congressional
hearings on UFOs. You would be hard put to do a better job of
flushing all possibility of securing public hearings down the
toilet than Steven Greer has done.

Oh, BTW, Stephen Basset has booked Greer to speak at his
upcoming conference. Stephen, you'd have to pay _me_ to attend!
If it's not too 'nosey' a question... Why on earth do you
continue to actively promote and publicly support Steven Greer?

I ask because I cannot fathom how - after witnessing his act of
plagiarism, (talk to Dick Hall!); the way he has incompetently
handled the disclosure effort and now his 'fake alien invasion'
paranoid delusions' - you can justify hiring him to speak at a
UFO conference?

As the one and only UFO Lobbyist in Washington DC, how do you
explain your support of someone who _hurts_ ufology to the
degree that Stephen Greer does? Who do you represent down there?
Us - 'we the people' or Dr, Greer and his tape-selling travelling
side-show? Do you have a little 'side-deal' going with him?
Honest Stephen, I do not understand your promotion of this guy.

>But for Greer to infer that 9/11 was faked, is beyond the pale.

Not "beyond the pale" my friend, sadly it is par-for-the-
course with this mope. This isn't the first time he's used
9/11 for some self-promoting BS reason. I got deep in his a**
the first time he did it. Greer _has_to_go_. No question about





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                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:35:36 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:47:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Sparks


>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:49:26 -0300
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: Brad Sparks
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:42:09 EST
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>First of all, you didn't answer any of my objections to the
>gross errors you made on your "scientific update". I will take
>the time to repeat just one of the objections.

I believe I answered all your unfounded objections and
demonstrated that the "gross errors" were yours not mine, and
you make still more "gross errors" below where you absurdly
claim (as one of your objections I supposedly missed) that I
measured motion blur using the "dark spot" -- I said no such
thing and more importantly did no such thing. I simply did what
I said I did:

I said I measured the 30% flattening of the UFO's "DOME" which
is evidently due to lateral motion blur. I explained my
measurement. Can you read my posting of Nov. 6? That was over
10 days ago. Let me help you here, by quoting from my Nov. 6
posting here on UFO UpDates:

"Why is the UFO "DOME" approximately 30% FLATTER
in Photo 2 ... than in Photo 3? The amount of flattening
is a lengthening of the object in
the horizontal direction of flight motion of at MINIMUM
approximately 0.3 degree of subtended arc (the DOME
is about 1 deg wide at widest, 30% of 1 deg is 0.3 deg)...."

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m07-010.shtml

Note the crucial word "MINIMUM" which demolishes another
unfounded accusation of yours below, which I will discuss
further on.

If the UFO image is about 30% FLATTER it cannot possbly be, as
you wrongly assert, the "SAME" or "IDENTICAL." It cannot be
just "copies" that have been photomontaged or double exposed if
the SHAPE changes by some 30% flattening. Obviously a "dark
spot" would be a very difficult measure of overall flattening
and that's not what I said I measured and not what I did. Read
what I wrote again (above) and make an effort to comprehend
before hurling unfounded charges that I made "gross errors."

When are you going to answer my unanswered questions? How can
the UFO images be the "same" or "identical" if is 30% FLATTER in
Photo 2 than in the next? Anyone can see that just by looking.
 You're denying the obvious in front of your eyes -- like the
theologians who refused to look through Galileo's telescope and
see that the moon did have craters, that Jupiter did have moons,
Venus did have phases. Point to me clear evidence of a hoax
instead of clear evidence of a real physical object undergoing
complex maneuvers and I will join you in denouncing the hoax.
But that's not what I see and you are the one refusing to see
such obvious facts such as the 30% flatter UFO image.

>You measured a size difference of a "dark spot" between photos 2
>and 3, which according to you was of around 30%, assumed it was
>caused by "lateral motion blur" and declared that, accepting
>Barauna's testimony of a 1/125s exposure, the UFO was at around
>37deg/sec, based on these calculations and methods. "It's simple
>physics", you wrote.

I said no such thing about measuring a "SIZE DIFFERENCE" of a
"DARK SPOT." See above where I quote my Nov. 6 posting and prove
this to be a complete misrepresentation, as I said nothing about
using a "dark spot" to measure FLATTENING (it's NOT "size
difference" we're talking about here, again a "gross error" on
your part, as they are two different things). It is simple
physics.

But you have to demonstrate at least a rudimentary grasp of
simple physics and not confuse simple concepts such as
"flattening" and "size difference." In fact the UFO flattening
and the size difference are two completely separate scientific
arguments I have made refuting your preposterous and easily
disprovable claim that the UFO images are "IDENTICAL," arguments
you seem unable to deal with in any way except evasion.

I provided several scientific evidences of lateral motion blur,
not "assumption," which evidences you seem unable to grasp.
Again re-read my Nov. 6 posting. If you cannot process it I will
reduce it to simple terms for you next time.

>My objection was that even in theory, this would be only
>measuring the difference of speed, the difference of the
>"lateral motion blur". The UFO would be at 37deg/sec on P2 only
>if it was at 0 deg/sec on P3. Then I emphasized all the
>unwarranted assumptions you made, and how these calculations and
>measurings apparently contradicted even the "rotational motion
>blur" you yourself claimed to have measured. Your reasoning and
>methods were simply and badly wrong.

<snip>

You need to read and understand my Nov. 6 posting and elementary
physics, which anticipated and refuted your objections in
advance of you making them. If you had read carefully you would
see I had said that the approximate 37 degrees/sec lateral
motion -- estimated from the measured motion blurring which
FLATTENS the object by about 30% -- was a "MINIMUM" (go back up
to my Nov. 6 posting, quoted above).

Why did I say that? The reason it was a "MINIMUM" was the very
thing you claim here, the motion-blur flattening was estimated
by comparison with the object when it was slower but still had
some motion-blur flattening at that slower speed, so the total
amount of flattening if it could be compared with a completely
motionless object might be a little more. So what? I can say "a
little" because there are data on that. In fact, using
completely independent angular velocity data, I had specifically
estimated the AVERAGE slower motion between Photo 2 and Photo 3
at about 12 degs/sec rather than a stationary 0 degs/sec, though
because it was an AVERAGE it could even have been 0 motion when
the picture was taken at Photo 3. Since the data show the UFO
was slowing down (exactly as the witnesses stated), it is
reasonable to estimate the speed might have slowed from perhaps
18 to 6 degs/sec which averages to 12 degs/sec. So it might have
been 6 degs/sec at the moment Photo 3 was snapped. I deleted
text from my draft posting on this point -- but of course left
in the important qualifier "MINIMUM" -- because it was just too
complex to get into in a preliminary analysis here.

Guess what happens IF we can make that correction for comparing
the object when it was completely stopped? It makes the total
flattening in that case about 35% to 40% instead of the
uncorrected 30%. With rough calculations like these, so what?
You cannot seriously object that by correcting the angular
velocities as I just discussed, they might go up by that 6-12
degs/sec range, a very minor change???

Obviously you do not understand the calculus of differentials or
"deltas" and the concept of iterative calculations, used in
physics all the time for making first order computations before
a tentative solution justifies seeking a more precise second
order solution. Here my PHOTOGRAPHIC MOTION BLUR analysis
yielded a first-order approximation of on the order of 37
degs/sec lateral motion -- based on film and camera data. As I
pointed out originally, this agrees with my first-ever panoramic
OBJECT DIRECTIONAL DATA combined with the Brazilian Navy witness
reenactment. This yields first-order AVERAGE angular velocities
of around 12 and 25 degs/sec, and reaching a PEAK of perhaps 37
degs/sec (the AVERAGE of 12 and 37 would then be 25 degs/sec
approximately, do the math, it's grade school level).

These numbers as I pointed out weeks ago, 37 degs/sec and 37
degs/sec, are in surprising agreement for a supposedly
NONEXISTENT object that you claim was never over the island of
Trindade, that there was NO REAL OBJECT ever over Trindade and
thus never photographed by Almiro Barauna on Jan. 16, 1958. How
do you explain such close agreement (37 degs/sec) of lateral
motion figures from these two independent methods if it's all a
hoax?

Again, you cannot seriously expect to get anywhere with such
frivolous arguments that might change one figure to perhaps 43
degs/sec. That is still excellent agreement with 37 degs/sec,
given the large error margins involved, and certainly
unaccountable if there actually was no physical object making
these motions and changes of motion over Trindade, as you claim.
Do you really think that hoaxers in Brazil in 1958 were
PHYSICISTS???

>>Can you tell us why a real physical object cannot rotate and
>>flip over?

>Nobody said that, your question is a strawman. What is really
>being said is that with rotation and flipping, and let's not
>forget, distance, speed, and perspective differences, the image
>of a real physical object cannot be as similar as it is on all
>of the Trindade photos, being inverted and mirrored.

What unscientific non-quantitative rubbish! I have presented
plenty of numerical data proving my points, including a 30%
flattening of the UFO's shape due to motion blur, and all you
can come back with is this gaping illogic, no numbers, no
nothing. Quantify your claims or admit defeat in the halls of
science! A physical object is basically IDENTICAL with itself
and naturally should look SIMILAR, of course. Your argument is
nonsense, and an evasion of your own claims that the UFO images
are actually the "SAME" or "IDENTICAL" because they were cookie-
cutter copies of each other made by a hoaxer who purportedly
made 4 copies of the "same" fake UFO image (but in reality they
are obviously are not duplicates of each other, just look at
them! 30% flatter is not "identical" shape!). That is no
"strawman."

How ironic that debunkers want it both ways, as usual. Going
back to Menzel in 1963 who crows that Trindade is shown to be a
hoax because the UFO's size and appearance differ from photo to
photo. Then you come along and say that the photos are a hoax
because they are too much the "same" or "identical" from photo
to photo!

>>No "convincing explanation" is necessary for real
>>physical objects doing what they are capable of doing.

>Prove that a real physical object can do what you say it does
>and remain with that degree of similarity on its image. You
>didn't. You also didn't prove any of your rotational and lateral
>motion blur claims, or answered any of the objections to your
>reasoning and methods.

I already did all that - see discussion above and in my previous
posts going back to Nov. 6.

>In a previous message, Brad, you wrote: "The UFO image's darkest
>spots are at about level 6, the surrounding sky is at about
>level 8, and it's about the same on each of the four photos so I
>can discuss them collectively".

>It's amazing that the contrast between the UFO and the
>surrounding sky as you measured is "about the same" on all
>photos, since Barauna himself claimed to have treated ("to
>enhance the contrast") only four of the six original shots.
>Maybe those four are the ones we have, but I wouldn't bet on
>that. I would guess this is just one more of your amazing
>measurements. And I wonder if you will answer to this one more
>objection.

It's really too bad you don't like science and resort to pseudo-
scientific distortions to try to win debunking arguments and
seize upon any mistake however trivial in order to slander
someone and turn him into a vile criminal hoaxer. Clearly there
is a mistake in the relaying of Barauna's account by the
Brazilian Naval intelligence service, and that Barauna was even
more careful than he is credited there in the March 2, 1958,
report, and ONLY REPROCESSED THE TWO PHOTOS THAT MISSED THE UFO
in his experiment to try to improve the developing of the
negatives from the hasty development aboard the ship. Barauna
said he did not want to risk damaging the important photos
having the UFO images. The photo data show that contrary to the
Navy report, Barauna did NOT carry out the additional
development on two UFO photos and the two missed photos, but
evidently ONLY on the two missed photos.

You still cannot answer my questions as to how a double exposure
is possible with the wide dynamic range of densities in the
Trindade photos of about 0-8, and somehow result in a UFO with
portions 2 density levels darker than the surrounding sky. If
the sky started at brightness 6 before double exposure and the
UFO was black as possible on a gray background of minimum 2
brightness levels, then you get a sky of 8 but the brightness
range of the whole photo is 2-8 after this double exposure not
the 0-8 that we see in the actual Trindade photos. That is
because, as I explained before, the darkest areas of the
Trindade photos can no longer be as dark as almost 0 density
after this double exposure has added 2 brightness levels. You
have no answer to that simple physics and optics.

You evidently concede that your 2003 computer simulation does
not come close to accurately simulating a 1958 photographic film
hoax by double exposure, that it does not fit the Trindade
photometry, and that the computer software distorts light values
in a highly complex non-linear way that is unlike photographic
film.


Brad Sparks







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                      Sighting in Hilo Hawaii Dec '75?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@SYSMATRIX.NET>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 02:29:37 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:39:46 -0500
Subject: Sighting in Hilo Hawaii Dec '75?


Hello all:


Does anyone have info on a possible sighting as described below?
Hilo, HI: Dusk on 17 DEC 1975.

I have nothing in my database, and found nothing in the NUFORC
online lists.

I'm sure Phil would appreciate any information available.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: UFO Sighting in Hilo in Dec 1975
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:53:25 -0800
From: Crossroads <crossrd@ix.netcom.com>
To: larryhatch@sysmatrix.net

I am interested if anybody reported seeing an object over Hilo
at dusk around Dec 17, 1975. It was an object lit up by the
setting sun that moved at tremendous speeds - plus was able to
stop instantly and accelerate instantly. Was visible for about 5
minutes and moved across the horizon. This object was visible
similar to the dot of an "exasketch" or a dot on a cathode ray
tube. It was at high altitude, and appeared to be in a typical
altitude used by commercial aircraft.


Let me know if others had seen this.

Phil Murphy







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                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:15:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:01:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Ledger


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 21:23:56 +0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 13:56:21 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:36:20 -0000
>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:36:16 -0600
>>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>>Two, there isn't "an utter absence of negative witnesses". Just
>>>look at the US Naval Attache's report to Blue Book in which he
>>>states that his assistant interviewed some of the officers, and
>>>the commanding officer and the executive officer both denied
>>>having seen the UFO. So that's at least two _named_ negative
>>>witnesses (or was the Assistant Naval Attache a liar?), and no
>>>named positive witnesses, merely assertions by Barauna, or
>>>apparently originating from him, that there were many of them.

>>"Denied" implies that some one said - perhaps the US Naval
>>Attache - that they had seen the object which they had not.
>>Attaching the word denied to their report is a debating ploy.
>>They didn't see the object in the first place and who says that
>>they did? Was it Barauna? Maybe they weren't on deck at the time
>>or attending to other business. That's not a negative witness.

>>A truly negative witness would be one who was present when
>>another witness claimed seeing an object and yet did not see it
>>when it was pointed out to him and as far as he was concerned
>>there was no object to be seen.

>>Such witnesses witnesses have not come forth.

>You would have to be exceptionally stupid to perpetrate a hoax
>in the immediate presence of people who would be likely to
>denounce you. And whatever Barauna was, he was not stupid.

So if it was not a hoax then it was one of two things, a mis-
identified and photographed aircraft of a conventional nature,
or an unidentified flying object-not of a conventional nature,
but with all of the attributes that the acronym UFO has come to
imply: Pick one, an extraterrestrial object under intelligent
control, a terrestrial object under intelligent control by some
symbiotic entity sharing this planet with us that we have been
too stupid to pick up on throughout our history, an inter-
dimensional craft or a multi-universe [NASA figures as many as
126-go figure] craft occupying the same space and time as us.
And last but not least some intelligent creature that lives in
our atmosphere but likes to look like heavy machinery.

>>Putting this in the context of the day. Don't you think that the
>>"hoax" scenario is a bit nonesensical considering there were
>>naval personnal present, the press got involved, and so did a US
>>Naval Attache.

>>So we don't actually have anyone denying anything do we, just
>>two officers whom no one claimed had seen the object but rather
>>saying they weren't present to witness anything?

>>Not negative witnesses John, just people who were not present to
>>witness anything.

>So we have quite a few named individuals who were not around
>when Barauna took his photographs, but, apart from his two
>friends, not a single named person who _was_ around when the
>photographs were taken.

>Do you begin to see a pattern emerging here?

Well, how many witnesses does it take? There were the two
friends of the principle witness whom you seem to be suggesting,
are lying in support of Barauna. What if there were others-which
there probably were- but who were not friends of Barauna but
were friends of Barauna's friends? Would they then be guilty by
association and also unreliable? How many degrees of separation
would it take to satisfy you John?

The problem is that the case takes on a new significance with
the passage of all these years. Back then it was an insular case
being shared among several people aboard a vessel-which is in
fact a tiny social structure all on its own-floating upon the
sea. Much has been written about this maritime social structure.
Did then the other elements that I/we and maybe even you have
noted during a study of the phenomenon, come into play,
specifically the selective witness to a sighting syndrome, where
others present seem loath, or unable* to even to take a look
[for whatever reason-or influence] at the object.


Don Ledger

* This first became evident to me some 25 years ago when my own
daughter came flying into our house to inform me that there was
a really weird looking object, flashing multicolored lights,
travelling silently above the street in front of our house. She
and 5 other children [ages 12 -13] were kicking around a soccer
ball-just after dusk. I went out with her but it had gone over
the treeline further up the street. I asked her about it. She
was frustrated because she caught a glimpse of it and tried to
draw it to the attention of the others-who would not look up to
see, what she said, was so obvious and so close. All these years
later she still marvels at what she saw and can't figure out why
two of her sisters and her friends would not look up but played
around her while she was rooted to the spot pointing up, and
observing the craft for about 15 seconds. I've run into this
oddity [selected witness observation SWO] more than a few times
over the years. Since most UFO witnesses are unaware of this SWO
my interest piques when someone I'm interviewing mentions this
to me.







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   Nov > Nov 23

                   Trindade: The Final Explanation - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 12:52:52 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:05:10 -0500
Subject: Trindade: The Final Explanation - Clark


Patient and gentle Listfolk:

I am sure you've been just as puzzled about the pelicanists'
inability, despite repeated challenges, to come up with the name
of a single negative witness to the Trindade sighting and
photographs. This despite inquiries by the Brazilian Navy,
press, ufologists, and debunkers and the passing of nearly five
decades. The pelicanists have yet to cite a single source which
confirms what they need to believe - that there were no
witnesses to the UFO's passage - and so far only succeeded in
creating an imaginary personality for the photographer as a
devious, possibly sinister character.

An ordinary person would have judged, of course, that by now,
after years of consistent publicity, _somebody_ would have come
forward to say something to the effect, "I was there on the deck
at the time. Nothing happened." But of course the ordinary
person actually requires evidence for a proposition.

The pelicanists have put themselves in knots not trying to
answer this question or - more to the point - not to answer it.
As it happens, I am feeling charitable today and offer the
following answers to this question as a courtesy to these hard-
working souls. I will follow their example and offer exactly
zero evidence for the ensuing speculations; after all, when you
have ultimate truth on your side, who needs evidence?

(1) Perhaps Barauna, the photographer, had world-class hypnotic
powers. He made the witnesses believe they had seen a UFO or,
failing that, planted a posthypnotic suggestion that they would
suffer spontaneous human combustion if they alerted
investigating officers, journalists, ufologists, debunkers, or
others to this absurd and easily exposable hoax.

(2) Perhaps Barauna had underworld connections and was able to
threaten each of the 48 alleged witnesses into silence. The
threats were so intimidating that even five decades later not a
single terrified disconfirming witness has dared speak up.

(3) Perhaps the witnesses did observe an actual UFO, which gave
Barauna the idea to fake photographs of one on the spot. Thus,
no negative witnesses - all the observers were confused; they
failed to grasp that Barauna produced bogus pictures of the
actual UFO they saw.

(4) The Brazilian government engineered the hoax with Barauna as
its instrument. Thus the alleged witnesses were simultaneously
ordered (1) not to speak with the press (as contemporary
accounts attest) and (2) to lie to naval investigators and make
sure nothing was said about nothing's being seen.

(5) The Brazilian Navy investigators were so dim of wit that
they failed to understand the witnesses' testimony. The
witnesses were trying not to confirm the UFO sighting but to
relate to the Navy their observation of a gigantic pelican over
Trindade.

Fantastic, you say? Well, okay, but it's better than we've heard
so far from the debunkers, who don't even try to address the
obvious question of missing negative witnesses. Choose your
favorite among the above, and then go and believe. You are now
an honored member of the Order of the Pelican.


Jerry Clark








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                               Trindade Facts

From: Thierry Jonnaert <thierry.jonnaert@pandora.be>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 20:15:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:26:25 -0500
Subject: Trindade Facts


Hi Folks,

We were already presenting facts about the Trindade case but as
some people still believe this case was a kind of hoax, I will
bring more convincing facts, even after Gevaerd, J. Clark,
Bruce M. were already delivering valuable facts or ideas to
defend the case. So... please read the other posts to understand
what I'm talking about.

The most of my information is coming from different sources (my
archives, a Navy report & the information of Schneider and
Malthaner, the UFO-photo-experts,etc.) and the rest is the
product of my own research.

Only some points today (but important Navy-information and
some technical points):

Analysis by the Navy Photo Reconnaissance Laboratory:

This center did a complete analysis of the real negatives.

Included: visual studies, frame-by-frame slide projection (not
like the NASA for UFOs),microscopic examination, granulation
tests and measurements of the images brightness, contrast-
analysis, etc.etc.

The laboratory concluded that the photos were genuine (positive
report)!

Menzel one of the arm-chair-debunkers (debunking - what a sport)
claimed that the Trindade pictures were a hoax because the UFO-
 size and appearance differ from photo to photo (and another
debunker said the photos were too much the same)... but I think
he never had a Rolleiflex or Leica in his hands... and this kind
of remarks are very different from the prof. Methods of the
Brazilian Navy. I studied myself Photography in the Royal
Academy...and I know the Navy was very serious about the photos
of the UFO! (Normally the real debunkers are often a part of the
Navy of some countries, but in
Brazil this was different, and this is great! Proficiat)

I could see a computer-an. of the UFO. It's a kind of spaceship
you could observe in some places (Saturnus-shaped indeed)

- A Navy document (report) was sent to Rep. Sergio Magalhaes.
Some facts were found in that Navy report, but all this was in
harmony with what Barauna and the people were telling to the
press (even all the officers of the Navy were convinced. Is this
not wonderful ?)

- The Navy Commander told to Fontes (not Barauna)...' they
are authentic...because they were shot from the deck of a
Navy ship, the NE ' Almirante Saldanha', in the presence of a
number of Navy officers and sailors, who had sighted the UAO
too'.

- Not everybody was on the deck I think...but this is normal!

- The Navy Ministry was sending the negatives to the Cruzeiro

Do Sul Aerophotogrammetric Service for analysis (not like
the so-called Nasa-experts...but a real analysis... 'in depth').

This was the center I mentioned before.

- The President Kubitschek became so sure (after the Minister
explained everything etc.) that he ordered to release the
pictures to the press. Imagine president Bush involved in such
an operation! (And The Washington Post telling about all
this...or The New York Times!)

- The photographer was not a kind of fool but a real photo-
 grapher, who was also amazed by what was happening,like the
officers etc.! He had a Leica and a Rolleiflex, but used the
Rolleiflex for the UFO.

- Another Navy-source mentioned that the day before Barauna took
his pictures, the radar of the Almirante Saldanha tracked
another UFO. This was on the sixteenth at 2.30 A.M.! (before

Barauna took his historical pictures).

-Almiro Barauna was not the kind of flying saucer-fool you will
see in some films, but a serious photographer with a mission!

- 3 men with scientifical experience were present in the ship.

Nobody made a negative report later.

- The kind of Saturn-shaped UFO was observed by many men and
women of the island, and all this happened often (the last
weeks). It happened also later - after that day - as I mentioned
earlier.

- The Hydrography and Navigation Service of the Navy stated that
the flying object was not a meteorological balloon, and it could
certainly not be a missile from the US!

- All important instruments ceased operating while the UFO moved
around the island (Navy report)! This is not happening with a
meteorological balloon!

- Experts of the Navy confirmed - to the Press, Minister, etc.
that there was no falsification - after analysing the negatives!

- On 6 - 01 of the same year Commander Bacellar could observe
how the weather-balloon disappeared in a strange cloud! After a
certain time they could see the balloon again, but all the in-
 struments were gone! This was not the end. Later...a silver
disc was leaving this strange cloud and flying away.(Schneider
and Malthaner)

So...I think we have a lot more to say...but it's late and the
men or women who are trying to understand will have their stuff.

Adios... and now... Menestra de legumbres!


Thierry Jonnaert








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                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:23:20 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:36:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Harney


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 11:22:10 -0600
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:36:20 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>What evidence do you have (1) that the named witnesses were
>"friends" of Barauna (not the same as acquaintances or fellow
>club members, which is in fact all that can be stated with
>certainty), and (2) that, moreover, these individuals - whose
>closeness to Barauna has not been demonstrated - would be
>willing to collaborate in an deeply risky hoax with him?
>Remember, this is a hoax that could not only destroy their
>personal reputations forever but place them into serious legal
>jeopardy, as a profoundly unamused Brazilian Navy (and an
>enraged Brazilian President and Congress) unraveled the scheme.

>I await your silence on this matter.

I don't know why you make such a fuss over Barauna's fellow
members of the Icarai Club for Submarine Hunting being described
as friends. It must have been a small and fairly exclusive
organisation, so it seems to me reasonable to describe them as
friends in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

As for Barauna getting people to co-operate with him in
perpetrating a hoax, this isn't difficult to understand,
considering that he seems to have had a somewhat persuasive
manner, and impressed the various officials, journalists and
ufologists who interviewed him. I doubt if his friends
(acqauaintances, fellow club-members, or whatever you want to
call them) had much time to think about any possible
repercussions when they suddenly got caught up in the UFO
incident.

>Oh, dear. These aren't negative witnesses, only nonwitnesses.
>The ship had approximately 300 men on board. Nobody has ever
>claimed, to my knowledge, that all 300 were on deck to see the
>UFO which Barauna photographed. The number of witnesses, it is
>widely reported (as you have indicated yourself), was 48. The
>Brazilian Navy, the Brazilian government, the Brazilian press,
>and Brazilian ufologists - all of whom then or later
>investigated the case - rightly did not regard nonwitnesses as
>de facto disconfirming witnesses. Those who did see the UFO, as
>the official Brazilian Naval report states, suffered "strong
>emotional upset." The witnesses included "the photographer,
>civilians, and members of the ship crew." No one on the ship at
>that time has ever disputed that, as far as anyone has been able
>to demonstrate.

For some time after the incident, contradictory statements were
issued by the Brazilian Navy and other people. For example a
statement from a Navy spokesman issued on 21 February (1958)
saying that the crew of the Almirante Saldanha had witnessed a
UFO was accompanied by another one issued the same day from the
Navy High Staff Command, which stated that no officer or sailor
from the vessel had witnessed the event. From the point of view
of crew members, the best policy in these circumstances was
surely to remain silent about the affair.

>(Parenthetically, it's worth noting that the same UFOphobic U.S.
>military which John quotes so uncritically had, as recently as
>the previous November, reduced the 200-foot-long UFOs at
>Levelland, Texas, to mere ball lightning, which is ordinarily
>the size of a basketball at its largest. Clearly, the Brazilian
>Navy, which knew a whole lot more about Trindade than did a U.S.
>Naval attache telling his superiors what they wanted to hear, is
>by far the more credible source here.)

Levelland? Now, who is changing the subject? Anyway, I agree
with you that no convincing explanation has been offered to
explain these incidents, although it can be argued that this is
because Blue Book failed to investigate it systematically,
leaving us with a collection of rather incoherent accounts. Most
of them don't even seem to agree on what the weather was like at
the time.

I was not quoting the US military uncritically. And I was
referring to the factual content of Captain Sunderland's letter,
rather than its decidedly undiplomatic tone. The relevant fact
is that the Assistant Naval Attache reported that those he had
questioned had not seen the object.

>Negative witnesses are those who were on deck at the time, in a
>position to witness events (or nonevents), and insisted that
>nothing out of the ordinary occurred at the time the sighting
>reportedly occurred and the photographs were taken. The number
>of negative witnesses to date? Zero. That means none, John.

Also zero positive witnesses from among the crew

>And of course, as someone bristling with the will to disbelieve,
>you _want_ - desperately - to proclaim that there is nothing to
>the Trindade sighting/photographs, because if so the whole
>pelicanist house of cards comes crashing down.

I don't desperately want to proclaim anything - I am just trying
to draw attention to the numerous contradictions and
inconsistencies in the Trindade story which many people have
brushed aside or ignored. This thread has revealed some that I
was not aware of, such as Barauna telling some people that he
was on deck with his camera ready (for photographing a boat
being hauled on board) when the UFO appeared, and telling others
that he was in his cabin. There different versions of important
aspects of this event. How is any impartial person to tell
which, if any, are the true ones?

>On the other hand, those of us who think UFOs are genuinely
>anomalous don't have remotely as much riding on Trindade.
>We can afford to look at it more objectively, since the case for
>the reality of UFOs as puzzling anomalies does not stand or fall
>on this one case. (As you may be aware, I have personally
>debunked, or endorsed debunkings of, some crucial cases once
>cited as significant pro-UFO evidence.) No wonder there is
>such an urgent, even frantic, edge to pelicanist discourse on
>this subject.

They are only puzzling anomalies until they are explained. Those
which are riddled with contradictions and inconsistencies should
be regarded with great suspicion unless such problems can be
satisfactorily resolved

>Beyond that:

>You have underscored another reason I am not a pelicanist.
>Your arguments are forced, your analogies, let us say,
>strained. The Piltdown hoax involved not the sighting and
>photographing of an alleged prehistoric human in front of,
>allegedly, dozens of witnesses (aka potential
>counterwitnesses). If it had, it would indeed be analogous
>to Trindade, and the controversy would not have continued
>for decades. It would have lasted a few days, or a few
>weeks, before one or (rather more likely) more of those
>48 would have come forward to state that the entire claim
>was a (so to speak) monstrous hoax.

>For those unread in this particular scientific scandal, let me
>explain that the Piltdown hoax concerned the digging up of
>(planted, supposedly prehistoric hominid) bones which the
>technology of the time (1911-1915) could not date with anything
>approaching certainty, and therefore could neither validate nor
>invalidate. As those who have followed the history of
>evolutionary anthropology know, scientists in the discipline
>have gone off into any number of dead ends, of which this was
>the most spectacular and embarrassing. (That is not, by the way,
>a putdown of evolutionary anthropologists; the history of
>science, and of all intellectual progress, is littered with dead
>ends.) Besides the absence of modern dating techniques, the
>essential problem was that evolutionary science in the early
>20th Century did not appreciate just how unlikely the presence
>of primitive hominids in Britain was. As an analogy to Trindade,
>this is a nonstarter.

The analogy was used only to show that the will-to-believe leads
people to ignore, or dismiss as irrelevant, evidence which can
demonstarte a claim to be false. Of course the Piltown case
bears no other resemblance to Trindade - I never suggested that
it did.


>Putting one over on one's friends, or even gullible UFO buffs,
>for a laugh is one thing. It is quite another to fool one's
>military and one's government and distract their attention from
>real national-security issues, not to mention waste valuable
>time and money and, moreover, humiliate all concerned before a
>world full of scientists, generals, civilian leaders, and
>journalists openly derisive of the very idea of UFOs. And thus
>open oneself to legal retribution and to the destruction of
>one's personal reputation after the easily exposable hoax has
>been brought to light.

National security issues? This was a scientific expedition -
 nobody was trying to steal Trindade from the Brazilians.

I don't see why Barauna should have worried about his
reputation. He was a freelance photographer, specialising in
underwater photography, and a journalist, not a bishop. I don't
know how it is in Brazil, but in Britain, according to opinion
polls, journalists don't have to worry about their reputations,
as they could not get much lower than they already are. Also,
any attempt to prosecute a journalists for a UFO hoax would
probably be laughed out of court.

>Of course, if one's personality were such that one did that sort
>of reckless, outrageous stunt once (and, incredibly, gotten by
>with it), we would reasonably expect a pattern of it. Would
>someone bold and conscienceless enough to pull off the most
>spectacular con job in the history of ufology confine himself
>simply to one such episode? Of course not. Those who followed
>con artists on the UFO scene will know what I mean; their lying
>and scheming are not confined to one thing, or even to UFOs.

Why should one expect a pattern of hoaxing behaviour? Surely it
is true, for example, that some people never get drunk, some
have got drunk once or twice, and others make a habit of it? Why
shouldn't the same rule apply to hoaxing? Woops, sorry - another
"forced argument" and "strained analogy".

>Comparable episodes (not necessarily involving UFO claims, of
>course) would dot Barauna's life. There'd be a clear pattern of
>lying, scheming, and conning in any number of areas of his life.
>(One example is the notorious Florida scoutmaster, for example.)
>Is there any evidence of this in Barauna's life? If there is,
>not a whisper of such evidence has emerged to date.

Except his reputation for producing fake photos, mentioned by
several writers on this case.

>Pelicanists are reduced to this tautology: How do we know
>Barauna was a liar and a hoaxer? Because he photographed a UFO.
>How do we know his photo was a hoax? Because, since UFOs don't
>exist, only liars and hoaxers take photos of UFOs like these.

This is nonsense, Jerry. Nobody is saying they _know_ Barauna
was a liar and hoaxer - it is merely being pointed out that
there are a number of matters to be explained concerning the
photographs and testimony in order to make it reasonable to
treat Trindade as a truly anomalous event.

>Meantime, the real, historical Barauna is nowhere to be seen,
>only the crude caricature that has been fashioned to serve the
>needs of those possessed of a fierce, unrelenting will to
>disbelieve, and an attendant willingness to smear any UFO
>claimant, even without evidence, who gets in their way.

I am certainly not trying to smear him. He either did or did not
see a UFO, and he either did or did not photograph one. It is
surely perfectly proper to examine such claims critically to see
whether or not the evidence tends to confirm them.


John Harney








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                 Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - Lewis

From: Stephen Miles Lewis <ufoupdates@elfis.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:27:20 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:44:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - Lewis


>Source: Global Village News and Resources

>http://www.gvnr.com/74/editorial.htm
>Issue 74 - November 17, 2003

>Pentagon Plans ET Hoax

>Qaeda to ET's - The Search For Bogeymen
>by
>Steven M. Greer MD
>Director, The Disclosure Project

"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los
Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This
is especially true if they were told that there were an outside
threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that
threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of
the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one
thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this
scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for
the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World
Government."

Henry Kissinger - 1991 Bilderberger conference, Evians, France.


Greetings UFOlks,

It's more than a little ironic for me to be "defending" Greer on
this issue as I was never a fan of his until he published this
white paper (and a different pre 911 version I believe) where
he warned about the spin the Government, Military, Industrial
Complex/Intelligence Community might put on their eventual
release of "the truth" about UFOs as alien technology.

However, I have always agreed with Greer's detractors that his
mixing multiple issues (each deserving their own focus, IMO)
into his attempts at getting the Government to acknowledge "the
reality of UFOs", ultimately sabotages those efforts.

But as for this issue of Shadowy Cabals and UFO Deceptions ...
there is more to it than some on this List seem willing to
acknowledge.

Firstly, I think it should be pointed out that this same article
by Greer appeared on this list back in June 2002: Cosmic
Deception: Let The Citizen Beware

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jun/m13-010.shtml

And a transcript of his discussion of this topic with Art Bell
can be found here

http://www.disclosureproject.org/artbelljune172002.htm

Secondly, this issue of the actual and potential human hand in
misusing UFO mimicry technologies and techniques is well
established by researchers like Jacques Vallee and other
authors. See his 1979 Messengers of Deception, 1975 Invisible
College but more recently in his 1991 book Revelations and his
1996 novel Fastwalker.  (excerpt/citation 1 below)

Thirdly, upon which fronts might our listers object to the
various "Manufactured Enemy" hypotheses, whether they relate to
Staged Alien Invasions, British "Martian" Strategems or 911
Parapolitical Fact? The individual accusations within Greer's
declaration? Or Greer himself? Apparently it is simply on Greer
himself as much of what he discusses in this article is
legitimate and of much concern.

... on the very issue of whether groups of humans have ever
considered manufacturing enemies:

Within the ParaUfological realms...

In Vallee's 1979 MoD he cites the declassified info in the
excellent book on WWII disinformation machinery, Bodyguard of
Lies, that describes the massive "double cross" efforts of the
LCS, London Controlling Section (referred to by the Brits as the
"Martians") that facilitated the allied victory. He speculates
about these same Psy-Op tactics and technologies continuing
their disinformation efforts after the war - only this time to
prevent another World War by uniting humanity against a common
enemy. Vallee goes on to document the common military tactic and
meme of manufacturing an enemy in order to rally populations for
into a unified force, whether it be to start a war with the
perceived enemy or to prevent a war by uniting countries against
a common outside threat, be it "Terrorism" or
"Extraterrestrials". He cites several late 1940s era science
fiction novels dealing with the theme of using an
extraterrestrial threat to unite the world. He cites the
infamous Report From Iron Mountain hoax which outlines an
allegedly tongue-in-cheek thesis for why war is the best way to
ensure economic stability and how the invention of threats, be
they extraterrestrial or ecological, would be necessary.

Report From Iron Mountain

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/iron.html (excerpt/citation 2 below)

Within the ParaPolitical realms...

There are countless examples of the use of scapegoating to
accomplish the rallying of the people against an enemy, this
idea is commonly referred to as Strategies of Tension and
Hegelian Dialectic, Problem Reaction Solution. Some examples:

911: What Aren't We Being Told? Analysis by John Judge January 2002
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/911jan2002.html#0119a
(excerpt/citation 3 below)
Relevance of Antonio Negri to the Anti-Globalization Movement
http://www.notbored.org/negri.html (excerpt/citation 4 below)
Italy's Strategy of Tension
http://www.guardian.co.uk/globalisation/story/0,7369,528118,00.html
Threats to Democracy: The Radical Right in Italy After the War
http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/5918.html (excerpt/citation 5 below)
Operation Gladio : U.S. & NATO Support for Fascist Terror in Italy
http://www.freedomdomain.com/Catalog/cataudio.htm (excerpt/citation
6 below)
Mae Brussell on the Strategy of Tension
http://www.conspire.com/emorevil.html (excerpt/citation 7 below)

Hegelian Dialectic/Staged Attacks including...
Rome, Maine, Reichstag, Pearl Harbor, USS Liberty, Gulf of Tonkin
Vietnam, 1993 WTC bombing, 911, Russian FSB Bombings and on and on ...
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/archiveprior_knowledge#northwoods

Most recently we have had horrific documentary evidence of our
own Government's Military Industrial/Intelligence Complex
intention and willingness to kill its own American citizens and
blame it on the Cubans as a pretext for war. Sound far-fetched?
This was reported by James Bamford in his 2000/2001 NYT best-
seller, Body of Secrets that revealed the existence of the
Operation Northwoods documents wherein the Joint Chiefs of staff
plotted to do just about everything that has "coincidentally"
come to pass on and since 911; destroying airliners, killing the
Americans onboard, sniper attacks in DC, destruction of
America's premier spacecraft, and other staged terror attacks.

The authenticity of the Operation Northwoods document has not
been questioned in any mainstream fashion though it was
acknoweldged pre 911 in news articles by ABCnews, the Baltimore
Sun and the previously cited Bamford book.

ABCnews - U.S. Military Drafted Plans to Terrorize U.S. Cities to
Provoke War With Cuba
http://propagandamatrix.com/ us_military_drafted_plans_to_terrorize_us_cities/
Baltimore Sun - U.S. terror plan called Cuba invasion pretext
http://propagandamatrix.com/us_terror_plan_cuba_invasion_pretext.html
Excerpt from Body of Secrets by James Bamford on Operation Northwoods
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html (excerpts/
citations 8 below)

Most importantly though, PDF copies of the document and comments
on it are archived in the National Security Archive at George
Washington University and are available through its website:

Pentagon Proposed Pretexts for Cuba Invasion in 1962
Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba [includes
cover memoranda], March 13, 1962, TOP SECRET, 15 pp.
http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/news/20010430/ (excerpt/citation
9 below)
http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf

... on the issue of UFO-like technologies that could be used to
imitate the phenomenon or stage UFO events and encounters,
consider the military and commercial development of such
psychotronic and non-lethal technologies as the VeriChip
(implantable, trackable, sub-dermal microchip), Hyper-Sonice
Sound System (implanting of voices in the head remotely), Human
and Vehicular Immobilization Technology (car stopping and body
paralyzing beams), etc., in relation to events described in

reports of UFO encounter and abduction narratives.
http://www.adsx.com/prodservpart/verichip.html
http://www.woodynorris.com/Articles/Newsweek3.htm (excerpt/citation
10 below)http://www.hsvt.org
http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/1994/so94/so94Aftergood.html&e=747

And of course there is a lot of information on the Psy-Ops use of
holography:

Counterfeit Foe - The Ultimate Hegelian Dialectic by Paul Joseph Watson
http://www.PropagandaMatrix.com/counterfeit_foe.html (excerpt/
citation 11 below)
Holograms and High Strangeness by Scott Corrales
http://fatemag.com/200303March.html
Jacques Vallee interview on UFO Deception and Holograms
http://conspire.com/val3.html

Finally, at the very least we know that the Air Force HAS used the veil
of ridicule associated with the UFO subject and the tools of
disinformation to keep hidden certain black budget activities secret;
examples would be the Air Force labeling sightings of the then secret
U2 spy plane as actual UFOs and the infamous case of Paul Bennewitz
being driven into madness at the hands of AFOSI officers and ufologist
Bill Moore.

Nuff said for now.

SMiles
"Paranoia Pays, But the Hours Suck"
----------

Notes/Excerpts/Citations

1 - Jacques Vallee on UFO Deception Theory

From an interview in Jonathan Vankin's 70 Greatest Conspiracies

The military may be experimenting with psychological warfare
techniques, as the Germans did in World War I, when they
projected images of the Virgin Mary on banks of smoke in an
effort to spook the French into saying their Rosaries instead of
killing Germans. Vallee also thinks that sham UFO reports might
be used as cover for tests of new military stealth technology.

But the most troubling "deception theory" Vallee poses is that
from time to time, the target of UFO hoaxes might be the general
public, or a segment thereof.

"In some cases," he says, "the community of ufologists may
simply be used in a sociological experiment because they are a
convenient group of people to test, to see how they react to
different rumors."

Sounds a bit improbable, but Vallee's research into the growth
of UFO "contactee" cults is suggests that such manipulation
occurs. In his book, Messengers of Deception, Vallee explored
the rise of a new kind of religious movement throughout the
world: the UFO Messiah cults, in which believers await the
coming of bubble-headed saviors in saucers. You can find these
groups in Europe and the Americas, in increasing numbers.

60GCAT: So there might be military applications for this
technology of deception?

Vallee: Our gods have always come from the sky. And how would a
god come from the sky today? He would come down in some kind of
space ship. He couldn't just appear out of the clouds, I mean,
that won't work. Although in World War I the Germans were using
psychological warfare by projecting photographs, slides, along
French lines. And I'm sure the French were doing the same thing
to the Germans. And there are very sophisticated devices now
being used in psychological warfare to create holograms, to
create visions to influence people.
http://conspire.com/val3.html

Jacques Vallee on the Human Misuse of UFOs for Deception and
Mass Control

"I believe there is a machinery of mass manipulation behind the
UFO phenomenon. It aims at social and political goals by
diverting attention from some human problems and by providing a
potential release for tensions caused by others. The contactees
are part of that machinery. They are helping to create a new
form of belief: an expectation of actual contact among large
parts of the public. In turn this expectation makes millions of
people hope for the imminentrealization of that age-old dream:
salvation from above, surrender to the greater power of some
wise navigators of the cosmos. . . . However, if you take the
trouble to join me in the analysis of the modern UFO myth, you
will see human beings under the control of a strange force that
is bending them in absurd ways, forcing them to play a role in a
bizarre game of deception. This role may be very important if
changing social conditions make it desirable to focus the
attention of the public on the distant stars while obsolete
human institutions are wiped out and rebuilt in new ways. Is
this the deeper meaning of the UFO `deception'? Are the
manipulators, in the final analysis, nothing more than a group
of humans who have mastered a very advanced form of power? . . .
Let me summarize my conclusions thus far. UFOs are real. They
are an application of psychotronic technology; that is, they are
physical devices used to affect human consciousness. They may
not be from outer space; they may, in fact, be terrestrial-based
manipulating devices. Their purpose may be to achieve social
changes on this planet." Jacques Vallee, from Messengers of
Deception

Simon Harvey-Wilson on Vallee's book Revelations and French UFO
Deceptions

Cergy-Pontoise.  Even if various government are involved in UFO
deception, their motives and methods may vary considerably. The
apparent abduction of Franck Fontaine at Cergy-Pontoise on the
outskirts of Paris in November 1979 is a good example. The story
is quite complex and is described in several UFO books (Evans,
1984).  Franck and a couple of his friends were loading their
car with clothes to sell on their stall in a market about sixty
kilometres away. They had got up before dawn and, while the
others brought the clothes down from their flat, Franck remained
in the car to stop it stalling. They then saw a brilliantly
shining UFO and several smaller lights near the car and, after
some confusion, Franck was found to be missing. The incident was
reported to the police and received nation-wide publicity. One
week later Franck reappeared near where he had disappeared and
was amazed to discover that he had been missing for so long.
Most books that mention it leave the case open, however in
Jacques Vallee's book Revelations: Alien Contact and Human
Deception (1991, p.149) we get quite a different story. Vallee
quotes an unnamed official from French Air Force headquarters
who, in November 1980, admitted that the Cergy-Pontoise
abduction had actually been carried out by the French government
in order to observe the reactions and behaviour of the police,
media, scientific investigators and the public. The abduction
had been authorised by a member of the French cabinet and no
more than fifteen people knew what had happened. Franck Fontaine
had been grabbed, kept drugged in a secure place for a week and
then returned to where he had been abducted without knowing what
had really happened to him. Vallee advises that, to eliminate
such official deception in future, abductees should be promptly
checked for syringe marks and given blood and urine tests to
check for any knockout drugs. If Vallee's report is true, we
have the ironic situation of a leading Western government trying
to fool the public into thinking that UFO abductions do exist,
rather that their usual denials. The question that ufologists
may need to ask themselves now, is whether other countries carry
out similar fake abductions to assess public reactions, and if
so, how often do they do it? UFOs, Disinformation and Deception
by Simon Harvey-Wilson Journal of Alternative Realities Vol 8,
Issue 1, 2000 http://members.ozemail.com.au/~amilani/jour8.html


2 - Report From Iron Mountain

The report included a number of recommendations that the
government should follow just in case peace did break out. For
instance, it suggested that a number of expensive institutions
be created that would mimic the economic function of a war, such
as: "(a) A comprehensive social-welfare program, directed toward
maximum improvement of general conditions of human life. (b) A
giant open-end space research program, aimed at unreachable
targets. (c) A permanent, ritualized, ultra-elaborate
disarmament inspection system, and variant of such a system."

The report also recommended that the government invent
"alternate enemies." For instance, it could mobilize the
population by scaring them with reports of extraterrestrial
threats, massive global environmental pollution, or "an
omnipresent, virtually omnipotent international police force."
Alternatively, the population could be roused by "socially
oriented blood games" done "in the manner of the Spanish
Inquisition and the witch trials of other periods."
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/iron.html


3 - 911: What Aren't We Being Told? Analysis by John Judge
January 2002

"The planning for "terrorist attacks" and the domestic and
international response has been going on for nearly 30 years
now, with rising levels of sophistication and demand for
control. . . .

There were many things that could have been done differently in
the last 30 years to end war, terrorism and violence worldwide.
The United States not only failed to do them, it often did the
opposite. But building a military/intelligence/security
apparatus as the sole response possible or desireable insures
much more profit, social control and ultimate concentration of
power than the path that might lead to real security and peace.
Those wishing the latter were rarely consulted by the planners.

At some point, did all this preparatory thinking come to be
self-fulfilling prophecy awaiting only it's triggering incident?
We have many other examples of this same apparatus both
encouraging and standing aside for other violent actions that
became the excuse for repressive responses. In Europe it is
known as a "strategy of tension" that ultimately puts the hired
guns in charge of the ranch."
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/911jan2002.html#01
19a

[See also John Judge, The Strategy of Tension. Lecture at
Fellowship of Humanity, Oakland, Ca 9/19/02]


4 - Relevance of Antonio Negri to the Anti-Globalization
Movement

What's missing from the usual biographies of Toni Negri is the
charge that it took him far too long to come to the now commonly
accepted conclusions that 1) the terrorist campaign inaugurated
by the bombing of the Piazza Fontana in Milano on 12 December
1969 wasn't the work of either the far-left (the anarchists) or
the far-right (the fascists), but the Italian secret services;
and 2) this campaign -- now called "the strategy of tension" --
 wasn't undertaken to destabilize or topple the government, but
to provide a pretext for its most reactionary elements to
strengthen themselves against an increasingly strong and
effective working class movement. The situationist Gianfranco
Sanguinetti came to these conclusions as early as 19 December
1969, when he published the extraordinary tract Is the Reichstag
Burning? In the following years, as State-sponsored terrorism
against targets in Italy became more common and more obvious,
Sanguinetti returned to the subject a couple of times: first in
The True Report on the Last Chance to Save Capitalism in Italy
(published in July 1975 and reprinted many times afterwards),
and then again in Remedy to Everything (also known as On
Terrorism and the State), which was published in Italy in 1979
and in France in 1980. Relentlessly persecuted by the Italian
government for his writings, Sanguinetti was vindicated in 1982,
when the so-called P2 scandal brought to light documents that
irrefutably proved that the Italian government had indeed been
employing "the strategy of tension" since the end of the 1960s
and through-out the 1970s. http://www.notbored.org/negri.html


5 - Threats to Democracy: The Radical Right in Italy After the
War, Chapters 4 thru 6

This book represents the first systematic research by a social
scientist on the radical right-wing movements in Italy since
1945. During the heyday of right-wing violence between 1969 and
1980, street aggressions, attacks, and murders were commonplace.
These bloody episodes were assumed to be the work of fanatical
bands of "political soldiers" and urban warriors loosely
controlled by secret services and other covert groups, which
used them as part of a "strategy of tension" pursued in domestic
and international circles. Franco Ferraresi here acknowledges
that these rightist groups were in fact permitted a certain
amount of freedom, and even in some cases actually aided, in the
hope that revulsion at terrorist tactics would have the effect
of mobilizing public opinion in favor of existing political
arrangements. However, he also studies the extent to which they
operated as autonomous units, while he carefully considers the
political heritage, the doctrines, and the ideology that
motivated them.

With the decline of violent activity on both extremes of the
political spectrum in the early 1980s, the theory and practice
so comprehensively discussed by Ferraresi seemed to have entered
a dormant stage. Ferraresi, however, places in context the
recent resurgence of neo-fascist forces in Italy, and of the so-
called New Right throughout Europe, together with the rise of
fundamentalism in many parts of the world.
http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/5918.html

The Strategy of Tension: Background and Precedents, Strategy of
Tension: A Case Study, High Point of the Strategy of Tension:
Attempted Coups and Massacres, 1970-1975.
http://pup.princeton.edu/TOCs/c5918.html


6 - Operation Gladio : U.S. & NATO Support for Fascist Terror in
Italy

Compares a CIA/NATO contingency plan and the "Strategy of
Tension" terror program highlighted in RFA19. Right-Wing
Guerrila groups created to oppose a communist takeover in Italy
or a Soviet invasion of Europe, gave rise to bombings,
kidnappings and assassinations in Italy. This program of Terror
was intimately connected to The Italian P-2 Masonic Lodge
discussed in RFA 18 & 19--2-90 Min.--$8.00
http://www.freedomdomain.com/Catalog/cataudio.htm


7 - Mae Brussell on the Strategy of Tension

Transcribed excerpt (by the ever-active Brian Redman of
Conspiracy Nation fame) from a broadcast by Dave Emory on KFJC
radio in Los Altos Hills, California. In this show, Emory
discusses the 1987 book, The Ultimate Evil, journalist Maury
Terry's investigation of the Son of Sam murders.

Mae Brussell has been pointing out, for a number of years, her
thesis -- which has endured, by the way, a lot of scorn at the
hands of many people -- that in fact all of these serial killers
were, in fact, a form of agent provocateur. What this is,
basically, according to Mae's thesis (and it appears to be borne
out in terrifying fashion and degree by this particular book) is
that this is a type of application of the "strategy of tension".
That is you take a society and you unleash all of these
horrendous screwball killers -- or killers we're told are
screwballs -- it has the effect of driving the political
spectrum to the "right". People want "law and order". They want
stronger laws, more cops, more jails, quicker capital
punishment. And in general, it predisposes them to accepting the
incredible. It's just, "Well with all those 'nuts' out there,
you never know who's gonna do what." So, if 900 people "commit
suicide" in the jungle under preposterous circumstances, or if
"lone nuts" come foreward and begin killing politicians, it...
there's a context in which that occurs.

But again, this is a way of driving people to the "right". These
horrible killings, these apparent screwballs running all over
the place, just gives the impression of a society that is
decaying. "What we need is 'law and order.'" "We need a
Fuehrer." "We need someone to set this right." We need.......
George Bush!! http://www.conspire.com/emorevil.html


8 - Operation Northwoods media attention

ABCnews - U.S. Military Drafted Plans to Terrorize U.S. Cities
to Provoke War With Cuba: In the early 1960s, America's top
military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent
people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create
public support for a war against Cuba.
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/
us_military_drafted_plans_to_terrorize_us_cities/

Baltimore Sun - New book on NSA sheds light on secrets - U.S.
terror plan called Cuba invasion pretext: U.S. military leaders
proposed in 1962 a secret plan to commit terrorist acts against
Americans and blame Cuba to create a pretext for invasion and
the ouster of Communist leader Fidel Castro, according to a new
book about the National Security Agency.
http://propagandamatrix.com/us_terror_plan_cuba_invasion_pretext
.html

BODY OF SECRETS, James Bamford, Doubleday, 2001, p.82 and
following. Scanned and edited by NY Transfer News.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html

[Of course you don't see ABCnews or other news services
reporting on this post 911. Instead you see them selling you the
lies of the Warren Commission's whitewash of the JFK
Assassination/Coup.]


9 - Operation Northwoods documents obtained via FOIA

April 30, 2001 - Pentagon Proposed Pretexts for Cuba Invasion in
1962

In his new expose of the National Security Agency entitled Body
of Secrets, author James Bamford highlights a set of proposals
on Cuba by the Joint Chiefs of Staff codenamed OPERATION
NORTHWOODS. This document, titled "Justification for U.S.
Military Intervention in Cuba" was provided by the JCS to
Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the
key component of Northwoods. Written in response to a request
from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the
Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer
various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba.
 These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as
Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of
Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake "Communist
Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities
and even in Washington," including "sink[ing] a boatload of
Cuban refugees (real or simulated)," faking a Cuban airforce
attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a "Remember the
Maine" incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and
then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage. Bamford himself
writes that Operation Northwoods "may be the most corrupt plan
ever created by the U.S. government." Chairman, Joint Chiefs of
Staff, Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba
[includes cover memoranda], March 13, 1962, TOP SECRET, 15 pp.
http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/news/20010430/
http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf


10 - Psychotronic "Mind Kontrol" Technologies

Hyper-Sonic Sound System (HSS), a Device That Can Put Words
Inside Your Head from 100 Yards Away. Woody Norris wants to tell
you something_and he can put the words inside your head from 100
yards away by Jamie Reno and N'gai Croal NEWSWEEK Aug.5, 2002
http://www.woodynorris.com/Articles/Newsweek3.htm


11 - Counterfeit Foe - The Ultimate Hegelian Dialectic by Paul
Joseph Watson

Military-industrial psy-ops has considered such programs before

Let's delve into the evidence of how technological deception has
been considered before, as a means of misleading populations.
The Kennedy era, anti-Castro covert action plan Operation
Mongoose was designed to destabilize Cuban society and turn it
against Fidel Castro. Under the umbrella of this strategy was a
program dubbed 'Elimination by Illumination.' It is found in the
Congressional Record, in "Alleged Assassination Plots Involving
Foreign Leaders, Interim Report of the Select Committee to Study
Government Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities,"
November 20, 1975. The plan was developed by an American
Intelligence military psy-op specialist named Edward Lansdale.

The operation was to have an American Submarine surface inside
Havana harbor at night and project a movie of a Jesus-like
figure on the underside of the low-lying clouds that form over
the harbor at night. A plane with muffled motors was to have
circled just above the clouds while another operative with a
loudspeaker exhorted the Cubans below to overthrow "Godless
Communism."

The plan was never put into action but was seriously considered
and, as stated, remains in the Congressional Record to this day.

An almost exact replica of this proposal came to light in a June
2000 Sydney Morning Herald report.

In 1991 during the Gulf War, top brass of the US Air Force drew
up plans to project a giant holographic image of Allah over
Baghdad. The scale of the project dictated a mirror several
kilometres across up in space. However, a more practical method
was suggested. When warm air lies on top of cold air, the
difference in density is enough to bend light. At higher
altitudes, a mirage can make whole landscapes appear in the sky.
An artificial mirage could in theory be made by heating the
atmosphere with radio waves or microwaves. The USAF then had the
problem of making the image appear to speak. They postulated, "a
pulse stream, an internal acoustic field of 5- 15KHz can be
created which is audible. Thus it may be possible to 'talk' to
adversaries in a way which would be most disturbing to them."

http://www.PropagandaMatrix.com/counterfeit_foe.html







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   Nov > Nov 23

                 Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - Koch

From: Joachim Koch <lists@kochkyborg.de>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 02:15:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:01:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - Koch


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:40:51 -0500
>Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax"


>As the one and only UFO Lobbyist in Washington DC, how do you
>explain your support of someone who _hurts_ ufology to the
>degree that Stephen Greer does? Who do you represent down there?
>Us - 'we the people' or Dr, Greer and his tape-selling travelling
>side-show? Do you have a little 'side-deal' going with him?
>Honest Stephen, I do not understand your promotion of this guy.

Dear John,

When I read your posting to this list regarding Dr. Greer's
latest claims some thoughts came to my mind which I like to
share here.

First, it is obvious that you don't like him. This is your right
and I am tolerant enough to stand your statements. As I know
from past postings, whenever Dr. Greer was mentioned, some of
this list 'went on the rampage'.

I know Dr. Greer loosely from some projects we had been involved
in England in the 90s and so I know a bit who are you talking
about. I will reserve my judgement here about Dr. Greer because
I don't want to start a new debate about him and I don't want to
comment about his statements regarding 9/11.

But what I would like to ask you is why do you react so
sensitive about his claims of a hoaxed alien invasion?

Some of this list here reminded others to stay 'on topic'
regarding UFO research when sometimes a debate extended too long
on certain aspects such as on special individuals or esoteric
subjects. But what is really 'off topic' when we discuss the UFO
subject? Have we all not learned that the phenomenon is directly
and closely linked to activities of official and un-official
human power systems?

You mentioned 'We the people'. Aren't you horrified, too, what
can be done to 'We the people' without asking them? Isn't it so
that right now several amendments of your constitution are
violated without asking 'We the people'?

Dr. Greer might have seen something. Maybe he is what you think
of him or he is used by some agenda for disinformation or he
simply has discovered the tip of a very black iceberg - do you
really know the truth? Or can you really rule out the
possibility that he is right? Where is your proof for that?

To maintain power or to initiate actions to increase power or to
start a war the various political systems of the past and
present often have constructed bizarr plots based on non-
existent 'evidence' or false claims.

A few examples?

The sinking of the 'Lusitania' was very helpful for the
involvement of the United States in the WW I. Try to find the
real cargo load papers and tell me about it. As far as I know
they are still classified.

The arson of the German parliament - the Reichstag - was done by
the Nazis themselves. Next day they started their frenzy against
all their 'enemies'.

The attack on the German radio station Gleiwitz was a fake done
by the Nazis themselves to start with WW II.

Why is it so difficult to get information about the 'armada' of
Admiral Byrd who went to Antartica soon after WW II and who did
not return with the same number of troops? What happened down
there? Did it ever happen?

The Roswell Incident was a weather balloon - sorry, a Mogul
balloon - crash. Hangar 8 - Berry Goldwater nearly thrown out of
the General's office. Steven Shiff felt 'stonewalled' when he
asked for Roswell documents. The GAO couldn't find anything
relevant to the incident.

The 'Gulf of Tonking-Incident' triggered the Vietnam war.

By heavily attacking an American Navy ship (and killing American
crew members) which was on a reconnaissance patrol in the
Mediteranean Sea near the Egypt coast the Israelis tried to
release an atomic attack of the U.S. against Egypt to involve
the U.S. in their war. The two American airplanes with the bombs
on board for Cairo have been in the air already!

Today, in German non-comercial tv, a 'Maya Daehne, Washington'
is named to be the author for a prime time tv program about the
assassination of John F. Kennedey. Nelly Connally, the wife of
the governor of Texas, was shown telling about her impressions
of the murderous minutes in this presidential car. She told of
three shots and how everything happend. And then 'Maya Daehne'
presented 'experts' who 'confirmed' that L.H.Oswald was the only
murderer, moreover that it is researched without any doubt that
he was the assassinator. The final comment was that 'people
cannot cope with the fact that it was only one single metally
deranged man. So all these conspiracy myths are still alive." Do
you really believe that 'Maya Daehne'is payed by the Cuban exile
mafia? Or is there another agenda? Such as:

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bones.htm

And as a good researcher, maybe you can find out why this
very important link:

abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/popoff/DailyNews/010423harris_video_popoff/

about a tv program which covers the 'Skull and Bones Order' does
not work any more. What you get is:

"Sorry This content is not available. We apologize for the
inconvenience.If you are not automatically redirected to
http://abcnews.go.com within 10 seconds, please click here."

Ruling governments and power systems of all times have created
incidents to establish or manifest their world order. Their
skills to do that were beyond our imaginary capabilities ,
either in the degree of cruelties or of deception.

So, Dear John, what do you think about the term 'naivety'?

Do you think Dr. Greer is naive (beside all what you personally
might think of him)?

But there is one among us here on this list who is telling us
 for years that a government (or power system) has the tools to
keep something secret if it wants to keep something secret. This
is our well respected colleague Stanton T. Friedman. Why do you
think has he to present papers and papers with blackened lines
on it on nearly every of his lectures?

What would be your conclusion of what we all have learned of
modern UFO research? That we are not alone in the Universe? That
our planet has been visited since a long time by advanced beings
with advanced technologies? That it was inevitable that there
was contact? That according to the state of mind of the human
side it was a positive and negative state of contact here and
there and from time to time? That human power systems (priests,
kings, leaders, presidents of their time) did try to make use of
these contacts for their own sake? That secret agreements have
been made? That pandora's box was opened and that they couldn't
close it when it became evident that the whole thing was out of
control? And that because of that we are living in a Potiemkin
village? Do you really think that mind control is only a
conspiracy theory?

Do you really think that what is going on on our planet right
now, day by day, is merely the 'fight against terrorism'?

Why are you so upset about Dr. Greer's theories? Do you have to
- or are you naive?

Very thoughtful from Berlin, Germany, this night,

All the best,

Joachim Koch

P.S.: BTW, you over there can change the world, with your own
hands, in November 2004. Don't vote for Skull and Bones, don't
vote for the Wall Street, don't vote for frustrated West Point
Generals. Vote for our planet and that we all have a future.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 23

                    Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Mori

From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 20:55:37 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:29:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Mori


>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:43:02 -0300
>Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update

>on P4 (or P6), the image of the UFO seems smaller. But the
>curious thing is that if we contrast enhance it, it can look not
>only bigger than P1, but that it is also similar to it,
>horizontally flipped. Repeating: no resize (these two were not
>even "initial scale corrected"), only different contrast
>enhancements:

>http://www.geocities.com/airsmither/a6.html

Important correction: In that comparison, P4 is actually resized
in relation to P1, contrary to what I wrote above, and to what
was written on the page (and still is on the animation). My
apologies for this mistake, the page is now already corrected,
and the animation will soon be.


Mori







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 23

                      Re: rindade Photos A Fake? - Mori

From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:16:49 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:31:30 -0500
Subject: Re: rindade Photos A Fake? - Mori


>From: Brad Sparks
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:35:36 EST
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:49:26 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>First of all, you didn't answer any of my objections to the
>>gross errors you made on your "scientific update". I will take
>>the time to repeat just one of the objections.

>I believe I answered all your unfounded objections and
>demonstrated that the "gross errors" were yours not mine

I believe you didn't do that, so much so, that you now had to
answer to just the one objection I repeated on this message.
There are many other objections, made now ten days ago, on the
12th, that you didn't answer to yet:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m11-012.shtm
l

I'll list most of them here, related to the photos (and not the
testimony). Perhaps then you will finally answer them:

- First of all, we are all dealing with first prints, or even
worse than that. First prints may be sufficient to prove a hoax,
but they cannot prove the authenticity of any photograph. The
original negatives are required;

- "Let's assume the UFO was rotating violently Brad. Amazing
thing that Barauna managed to capture it when it was more or
less on the horizontal on four photos, and presumedly, on the
other two, totalling six photos of a kind of horizontal UFO that
was actually flipping violently";

- "You mention how the 'amount of rotational blur is
proportional to the distance from the axis of rotation'. Does
this blur also relate to the linear motion? The resulting blur
should be kind of complex, kind of helical, and all depending on
the more than one axis and the point of view of the photos";

- Regarding your measured flattening of P3 in relation to P2,
used to calculate the "lateral motion blur", I wrote that it
would only be correct "assuming [the UFO] wasn't rotating (but
wait a minute: didn't you measure "rotational motion blur" on
the third photo?), and that the 'dome' is not a shadow, and
doesn't change its size or shape depending on the angle to which
we view it, and the distance difference is not
significative...".

>one of your objections I supposedly missed) that I
>measured motion blur using the "dark spot" -- I said no such
>thing and more importantly did no such thing.

My apologies, I probably got it wrong, my English, as everyone
may have noted, is not that good. You wrote: "There is a dark
patch on the bottom or top of the object (depending on the
flipping) which is obviously too dark and too small to be a
shadow", and a paragraph later, discuss the UFO "dome"
flattening. I assumed you were talking about the same thing.

>quoting from my Nov. 6
>posting here on UFO UpDates:

>"Why is the UFO "DOME" approximately 30% FLATTER
>in Photo 2 ... than in Photo 3? The amount of flattening
>is a lengthening of the object in
>the horizontal direction of flight motion of at MINIMUM
>approximately 0.3 degree of subtended arc (the DOME
>is about 1 deg wide at widest, 30% of 1 deg is 0.3 deg)...."

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m07-010.shtml

>Note the crucial word "MINIMUM" which demolishes another
>unfounded accusation of yours below, which I will discuss
>further on.

Yes, you did wrote minimum there, which means that 37degs/sec
would be the minimum according to your measurements, and later
wrote "the peak angular velocity could well have been 37
degs/sec or more". But you also wrote: "based on linear-motion-
blur the object is traveling about 37 degs/sec", "The linear-
motion blur ... indicates the UFO was moving at about 37
degs/sec. The flight path across the sky shows the angular
velocity reached a peak of roughly 37 degs/sec, perfect
agreement to well within any order-of-magnitude error margins in
this preliminary analysis. This is quantitative science Ken, not
debunking pseudoscience".

I think the problem here is that you assumed that the angular
speed on P3 was very, very low, but didn't mention it on what you
detailed on your message.

>If the UFO image is about 30% FLATTER it cannot possbly be, as
>you wrongly assert, the "SAME" or "IDENTICAL." It cannot be
>just "copies" that have been photomontaged or double exposed if
>the SHAPE changes by some 30% flattening.

Why not? On a double exposure, the photographer can make the UFO
seems larger, smaller, flattened, shrinked, or almost whatever
he wishes, just by changing the settings of his double exposure.
I noticed that P2 in first prints from one source that I have
have spherical aberration in relation to P2 from another source,
which is also a first print. If you match the center of it, the
borders won't, because they are larger. Why Barauna played this
way when making first prints is anyone's guess. The fact is that
this one source is cropped and resized, and the sea is leveled,
which it is not on frist prints from the other source. But even
this other source have some parts of the sea and ship that don't
show up on the other, and vice-versa, which means that both are
cropped.

>When are you going to answer my unanswered questions? How can
>the UFO images be the "same" or "identical" if is 30% FLATTER in
>Photo 2 than in the next? Anyone can see that just by looking.

The image of the UFO from P1 to P2, inverted, is nearly
identical, _including the size_. Even you recognize this, as
your measurements give 1.5degs to both. But you assume that the
"blur" makes the real size different, to account for the
differing distances, I guess -- "Photo 1, 1.1 degs if 25
degs/sec motion blur is deducted, Photo 2, 1.3 degs if 12
degs/sec motion blur is deducted". Even then, as you didn't
include the margin of error, the size of the UFO can still be
the same.

In the comparisons I made though, there seems to be no
difference at all. The local equalization filter shows the two
processed images nearly identical. Also, it is relevant that if
we shrink P2, or shrink and invert P1, it is very similar to P3.
How this shrinkage was done, I'm not sure, but it must not be
impossible with trick photography. Also, the fact that we can
make the four images match, is still uncanny, no matter how
anyone keep saying that it is obvious that a real phyiical
object can have its asymmetrical image inverted and mirrored.

>You're denying the obvious in front of your eyes -- like the
>theologians who refused to look through Galileo's telescope and
>see that the moon did have craters, that Jupiter did have moons,
>Venus did have phases.

Oh, we had to have Galileo mixed on the discussion. There should
be an equivalent to Godwin's Law, but referring to Galileo,
Copernicus, Bruno and great figures alike, when discussing
things like UFOs and the paranormal. As Sagan put it, they
laughed of Galileo, but they also laughed of Bozo the clown.

The curious, or not so curious thing is that, to me, it's you
and others who refuse to see what is right on front of your
eyes: the image of the UFO is too much similar across all four
images. You recognized the inversion of it from P1 to P2, but
you must not take this as an offense, I guess you only conceded
that because you were already dealing with amazing rotational
blurs. No Brazilian ufologist recognized that inversion as
relevant, possibly because they did not see an easy explanation
for acknowledging it with a real UFO. Talk about bias. To me,
and that's what I'm empahsizingg from the beggining, there's
this uncanny similarity. I and others suggest this is evidence
of hoax, but it's very clear that the similarity itself is more
important than the hoax explanation. It must be acknowledged and
explained, because it's there.

>Point to me clear evidence of a hoax
>instead of clear evidence of a real physical object undergoing
>complex maneuvers and I will join you in denouncing the hoax.

You have first prints from two sources, that are possibly
different from the first print scans I had access to. I humbly
ask you again, as I asked from the beggining, to compare the
image of the UFO, with different contrast enhancements in all
four photos, to evidence the most possible similarity between
them, and then make this comparison openly available. And then
explain in detail this similarity. Do you even have a suggestion
of what was the actual shape and configuration of the object?

>But that's not what I see and you are the one refusing to see
>such obvious facts such as the 30% flatter UFO image.

This flattening cannot be easily explained by motion blur. This
is one of the objections I made ten days ago. The UFO was moving
at different directions, and with different angles. And, you
claim, it was also rotating violently.

The problem, to me, of dealing with P3 is that the first print
scans of the one source that I had access to do not have P3
scanned at the high resolution as the others. Manuel Borraz,
though, clearly suggested a flattening of P1 and P2 in relation
to P3 and P4 in his comparison. So, this is acknowledged. This
will all be analyzed in more detail with the scans from the
other source.

>These numbers as I pointed out weeks ago, 37 degs/sec and 37
>degs/sec, are in surprising agreement for a supposedly
>NONEXISTENT object that you claim was never over the island of
>Trindade, that there was NO REAL OBJECT ever over Trindade and
>thus never photographed by Almiro Barauna on Jan. 16, 1958. How
>do you explain such close agreement (37 degs/sec) of lateral
>motion figures from these two independent methods if it's all a
>hoax?

I once again repeat that I made objections to your measured
(minimum) peak velocity of 37 degs/s that you didn't answer to.
Yet.

>What unscientific non-quantitative rubbish! I have presented
>plenty of numerical data proving my points, including a 30%
>flattening of the UFO's shape due to motion blur, and all you
>can come back with is this gaping illogic, no numbers, no
>nothing. Quantify your claims or admit defeat in the halls of
>science!

I find your constant talking about Galileo, science,
pseudoscience, scientific, unscientific, very amusing. This last
one "admit defeat in the halls of science!", with respect, I
must say that it has really given me some good laughs. If your
work on Trindade is to be published on a referreed scientific
journal, then I would understand you a little bit, but even in
this case, we here are only on a List. I guess you are not very
serious when you constantly imply that I'm close to being
retarded, and I'm not very serious either sometimes when I talk
about your "amazing" measurements. I do respect you, and we are
both trying to get new evidence on this case, trying to put and
end to the endless debate which has been going on for decades.

Anyway, I did point out methodological objections to your
measured data. You didn't answer them. I repeated them on the
beggining of this message. This is serious talking. I'm working
on quantitative data too, but it is now only over a week that I
finally had access to even digital versions of high resolution
first print scans. Mostly all I have presented on these few days
is what I'm doing on these few days. You are working for months
with first prints, and even you says that your work will only be
complete on the next year. So, you will have to have patience.

>A physical object is basically IDENTICAL with itself
>and naturally should look SIMILAR, of course.

With an asymmetrical dome which is always on the same relative
position, not matter how the UFO changes its speed, distance,
angle, and gets inverted and mirrored? That doesn't seems
obvious at all.  I'll try to make a simulation though, to show
just how a real physical object should behave on all these
situations. But you are the one who must do it, since it's you
who claims so.

>Your argument is
>nonsense, and an evasion of your own claims that the UFO images
>are actually the "SAME" or "IDENTICAL"

Evasion? I'm constantly claiming that there is this similarity
and asking other people to independently confirm or deny it on a
dtailed work. For over a year now.

>because they were cookie-
>cutter copies of each other made by a hoaxer who purportedly
>made 4 copies of the "same" fake UFO image (but in reality they
>are obviously are not duplicates of each other, just look at
>hem! 30% flatter is not "identical" shape!).

I did not claim "cookie-cutter copies of each other" anywhere.
But I repeat: if one image, even shrinked, is extremely similar
to the other, when they are supposed to be at different speeds,
perspective, and directions, then it's resonable to suggest they
were probably versions of just one original image produced with
photography tricks, and not a real object in an extraordinary
situation.

>That is no "strawman."

You asked "Can you tell us why a real physical object cannot
rotate and flip over?". Nobody said that an object couldn't do
that. Your question was a strawman, representing an exaggeration
that nobody claimed. Period.

>How ironic that debunkers want it both ways, as usual. Going
>back to Menzel in 1963 who crows that Trindade is shown to be a
>hoax because the UFO's size and appearance differ from photo to
>photo. Then you come along and say that the photos are a hoax
>because they are too much the "same" or "identical" from photo
>to photo!

I'm showing this similarity. Anyone can see it. If that denies
what Menzel claimed, with all the respect for the late, I must
say that then I'm showing he was wrong. Anyone can be. Maybe I
am, but pointing out how different people have different and
contradictory arguments about the case is not very relevant. You
accepted Sunderland "no shadow effect" claim even though he is
the one who claims the UFO was hoaxed. I accept his inversion
claim, even though I corrected it.

>>Prove that a real physical object can do what you say it does
>>and remain with that degree of similarity on its image. You
>>didn't. You also didn't prove any of your rotational and
lateral
>>motion blur claims, or answered any of the objections to your
>>reasoning and methods.

>I already did all that - see discussion above and in my previous
>posts going back to Nov. 6.

No, you didn't. You must have a model of what the UFO was like.
Then, calculate and suggest all the motion blur, speed,
distances, perspective, and show how this will match the
captured image. No small work.

>It's really too bad you don't like science and resort to pseudo-
>scientific distortions to try to win debunking arguments and
>seize upon any mistake however trivial in order to slander
>someone and turn him into a vile criminal hoaxer.

Distortion? You yourself recognizes below that it is the Navy
report which mention this treatment of the negatives. How can be
quoting a Navy report a "pseudo-scientific distortion"? As far
as I know, the images of the first prints I analyzed first do
have different contrast and brightness, that can be seen with
the naked eye from the overlapping parts of the Island, so I
even have some evidence to support what is written on the Navy
report. How can this be "pseudo-scientific distortion", probably
is something related to your constant talking about Galileo, the
halls of science and things alike.

Your rhetoric about how I "seize upon any mistake however trivial
in order to slander someone and turn him into a vile criminal
hoaxer" is also amusing, because I must take it as a joke. Yes, I
do support the claim that Barauna hoaxed his photos. I think I
have evidence of it, and I'm promoting and discussing it, not
because I think anything about Barauna's character. I'm asking
people to indepently confirm or refute the evidence. In all of
this, I never said or wrote anything personally condemning what
Barauna may have done. This may seem contradictory, but if
Barauna hoaxed his photos, the one expression that would best
express my opinion for it is: "nice hoax". That was the end of
the fifties, Brazil was having delusions of being the superpower
of the future, few years before an obvious hoax, the Tijuca
photos, got accepted by ufologists and the military as authentic,
the people on Trindade were (and still are) talking about amazing
stories, there was the space race... if it was a hoax, then it
was a clever, nice one. That's my personal opinion, and in this
case, it is very true to say: it's just an opinion. This opinion
must not influence the analysis of the physical evidence of the
case. It is surely not by arguing that he was "vile criminal
hoaxer" or a "reputable reliable man" that we will conclude
anything certain or, "sicentific", about his photos. It is only
through the analysis of the photos, which are the only physical
evidence.

>Clearly there
>is a mistake in the relaying of Barauna's account by the
>Brazilian Naval intelligence service, and that Barauna was even
>more careful than he is credited there in the March 2, 1958,
>report, and ONLY REPROCESSED THE TWO PHOTOS THAT MISSED THE UFO
>in his experiment to try to improve the developing of the
>negatives from the hasty development aboard the ship.

Please detail your sources or reasons to claim that the Navy
report got it badly wrong, because there it's written:

"In order to increase the contrast, he made an operation known
as 'clearing', which consists in clearing homogeneously the
whole negative; however, as in two pictures the UAO appeared
with great clarity and he was in fear of losing them if the
process failed, he cut the film and SUBMITTED TO THE PROCESS
only THE FOUR OTHER NEGATIVES; as a result the UAO appeared with
great clarity in two of them, in different positions" (emphasis
added)

>Barauna
>said he did not want to risk damaging the important photos
>having the UFO images. The photo data show that contrary to the
>Navy report, Barauna did NOT carry out the additional
>development on two UFO photos and the two missed photos, but
>evidently ONLY on the two missed photos.

Surely you didn't assume that the Navy report got it wrong just
by analyzing first generation prints, did you?

>You still cannot answer my questions as to how a double exposure
>is possible with the wide dynamic range of densities in the
>Trindade photos of about 0-8, and somehow result in a UFO with
>portions 2 density levels darker than the surrounding sky.

Yes I can. I did answer on the 19th, but there was a problem
with the message, and I resent it yesterday. The answer is here:

http://www.geocities.com/airsmither/trindde.htm

Cordially yours (and I mean it),


Mori








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               Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Conway

From: Richard Conway <ranger_conway@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 03:26:13 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:33:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Conway


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:57:55 -0000
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

<snip>

>*   We sent him on a merry dance round Derbyshire's Peak
>District as part of a controlled experiment (hoax, for the
>dullards among you) - which he is now desparately claiming he
>knew about all along, yeah, right!

Andy,

If this was an experiment then you will have a single or a of
set of hypotheses, one or more control groups, independent
confirmation of results, independant analysis of the results to
prevent statistical tuning and data coersion, detailed
evaluation of experimental method and a sound set of conclusions
which either support or don't support your hypotheses. Without
at least some or all of these this "experiment" is of little
value to anybody.

Don't misappropriate terms of science clearly beyond your
comprehension to describe your and David Clarke's juvenile,
irrelevant pranks.

Richard Conway










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                CIA Tells Agencies Not to Mention CIA in FOIA

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:30:52 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:36:43 -0500
Subject: CIA Tells Agencies Not to Mention CIA in FOIA


---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: [FOI-L] CIA Tells Agencies Not to Mention CIA in FOIA Responses
From:  "Michael Ravnitzky" <mikerav@MINDSPRING.COM>
Date:  Sun, November 23, 2003 1:15 am
To:   FOI-L@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

CIA TELLS AGENCIES NOT TO MENTION CIA IN FOIA RESPONSES
by Michael Ravnitzky , mikerav@mindspring.com

The Department of Defense recently released the following memo
dated 22 Aug 1995 and designated as 95-CORR-119.

Memorandum For: See Distribution

Subject: Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) Actions Concerning
the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)

It has come to our attention that a Department of Defense
Organization advised a requester that certain records were being
referred to the CIA during FOIA Processing. This is contrary to
the CIA preference NOT to be specifically identified by
intermediaries as the Agency responsible for particular records.
Usually, the CIA will review referred records and return the
records to your office with a recommended response.

Also, please remember that it is the CIA policy NOT to accept
FOIA requests from intermediaries. Thus, you should refer FOIA
requests to the CIA. If a request involves a CIA search, the CIA
asks that you inform the requester to submit their request
directly to the CIA.

If you require assistance, please contact this Directorate's
FOIA staff on 703-69701160/1180 or DSN 227-1160/1180.

A.H. Passarella
Director
Freedom of Information and Security Review
Office of the Assistant to the Secretary of Defense
1400 Defense Pentagon
Washington, DC 20301-1400






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                      Re: Psychiatry & Ufology - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:41:21 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:38:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychiatry & Ufology - Boone


>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 21:34:20 -0400
>Subject: Re: Psychiatry &Ufology


>Hi Greg,

>Apparently not even the gatekeepers are immune. How many
>psychiatrists and psychologists have claimed they were abducted.
>According to Dave Jacobs own cross section of abductees and his
>interviews with same-lots. John Ford in New York was jailed as
>being mentally unstable. I'm always surprised and horrified at
>how easily one can be committed for mental instability in the
>United States.

>Don Ledger

Thank you Don Ledger! I'm unfamiliar with the John Ford case.

Please let me know more. I had seen references to him but I must
know of a dozen or more folks named John Ford. Yes, I recall Dr.
Jacobs' books and research and presentations. He, to me, has
done a great job in tackling this issue. I hope to chat with him
some day on it. That brings the issue up of those in psychiatry
who tried to bring this abductee/witness issue to light and
ended up on the wrong side of the light saber. I recall what
happened to Dr. John Mack and asked him about it briefly in
Roswell in '97 but didn't get too much in depth. I've got tons
of friends and relatives who are alumni of Harvard and they'd
heard about his ordeal as well. I'm hoping this Mr. Ford you
mention is still alive and if not if he was unjustly detained
then I've got the people who will go to bat for him and his
family. We can't sit by as this is the area where the secrets
are swept. I'm betting there are legions of military, law
enforcement, rescue, other professionals and citizens who'll
tell similar stories and if volumnous, warranting the
expectations of a standard longitudinal study, that'd be worthy
of congressional attention to say the least.

Just going over the list of medical/psychiatric abuse advocates
and their data alone is GRUESOME to say the least. Didn't know
there were that many groups in the U.S. and I've yet to check
with the other countries but what I've gathered so far it's a
worldwide atrocity.

That's what gets me. We've got heads of state, celebrities,
scientists, astronauts, military leaders who'll get on tv and
proclaim their spiritual beliefs that are based on faith of word
and story alone and still command nations, planetary weapons
systems, major corporations. They'll note how 'angels' helped
here, how 'demons' were behind that, how 'wee folk' saved their
marriage. Yet you don't find these people hauled off to
institutions. If stating one observes or interacts with the
intangible is a prerequisite for institutionalization then 90%
of the population of Earth should be in rubber rooms wearing
double-breasted straight-jackets.

It seems as though the definition of 'mentally unstable' has
come to mean 'disagreeing with the norm' or 'rocking the boat'.

Best,

Greg










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                   Anyone Heard From Norio Hyakawa Lately?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:54:50 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:41:20 -0500
Subject: Anyone Heard From Norio Hyakawa Lately?


Hi folks,

Was wondering if anyone's heard from Norio Hyakawa recently.

Last I saw him was the night before Bill Cooper got shot.

Norio and I were having dinner that night and he gave me his
music cassette - he's a wonderful musician, BTW - and then Norio
had this look on his face and said cryptically,

"Boonie, I have a feeling. I'm worried about Coop. We should go
see him."

I kid you not. That's what he said!  I recalled Cooper from
years ago vaguely and didn't put two and two together 'til the
next day when the news broke. Needless to say I was in shock for
a spell because I was all set to go and hop over to Arizona and
chat.

After that I didn't hear from Norio, tried to email him, no
responses.

Best,

Greg







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                        Red Dwarf The British TV Show

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:58:45 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:43:17 -0500
Subject: Red Dwarf The British TV Show


Had a great chuckle the other day recalling a British
sci-fi/comedy television show called "Red Dwarf". I had seen
only two episodes of it but laughed so hard my eyes hurt.

A friend of mine from Britain who's a popular actor there and
here reminded me about the show and we were rolling on the floor
just discussing it.

If you get a chance and need a break from the 'monsters from the
ID' see if it's at your local store or on the air. It's well
worth it.


Best,

Greg







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                Re: More On Wrong Roswell Dig Site - Chapman

From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc90405@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:20:39 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:24:11 -0500
Subject: Re: More On Wrong Roswell Dig Site - Chapman


>From: Tom Carey <TCarey1947@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 10:58:37 -0500
>Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:05:31 -0500
>Subject: Re: More On Wrong Roswell Dig Site - Carey

>Even more damaging, he has provided points of
>reference for every crazy and wannabee within
>driving distance of the site to try to become >a
'hero' or worse. We are not finished with the >site,
and still have plans for further research >there.

Yes, the last thing one would possibly want to do would be to
provide a "point[] of reference for every crazy and wannabee
within driving distance of the site to try to become a 'hero' or
worse" by, for example, placing a monument at the site. Oh,
wait. A monument *has* been placed at the site of the debris
field. See:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/jul/m07-007.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m19-033.shtml

Never mind. :)

More seriously, I understand your point. If I discovered an
ancient Incan city that had not yet been fully and
scientifically investigated, I would not rush to post its
precise GPS coordinates on the web so every treasure hunter,
looter, and well-meaning but improperly educated, trained and
equiped amateur could rush to the scene.

However, this situation is different. People have been
investigating the debris field since at least 1989. See, e.g.:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/feb/m03-002.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/feb/m01-027.shtml

Further, it appears the "experts" have taken their best shot.
The Univeristy of New Mexico Department of Contract Archeology
has recently completed an investigation of the debris field. I
know of no such effort planned for the future. Given the current
state of UFO studies, the possibility of funding for any such
effort is very doubtful, to say the least. As Robert Gates noted
in the "m01-027.shtml" post referenced above, "How much more
time do folks need?"

The monopoly on information has to end at some point.
I think we have reached that point.

Finally, the following post to UFO UpDates:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/feb/m01-015.shtml

states that, "Pflock in 2001 and Moore in 1997 published books
commercially available with the Lat-Long coordinates of the
Debris Field - 33-56.35, 105-18.36." It would be interesting to
know what the GPS coordinates of the Roswell Monument are, as
well as how close it is to the site identified by Pflock and
Moore.


-- Charles Chapman







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   Nov > Nov 24

                 Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:27:33 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:37:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - Hall


>From: Stephen Miles Lewis <ufoupdates@elfis.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:27:20 -0600
>Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax"

>>Source: Global Village News and Resources

>>http://www.gvnr.com/74/editorial.htm
>>Issue 74 - November 17, 2003

>>Pentagon Plans ET Hoax

>>Qaeda to ET's - The Search For Bogeymen
>>by
>>Steven M. Greer MD
>>Director, The Disclosure Project

>"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los
>Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This
>is especially true if they were told that there were an outside
>threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that
>threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of
>the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one
>thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this
>scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for
>the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World
>Government."

>Henry Kissinger - 1991 Bilderberger conference, Evians, France.

<snip of everything else>

When someone starts off by offering such an obviously phony
quote, why should we pay any attention to the rest of it.

 - Dick






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   Nov > Nov 24

                     Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:32:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:39:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:23:20 -0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 11:22:10 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:36:20 -0000
>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?


Listfolk:

>>(Parenthetically, it's worth noting that the same UFOphobic U.S.
>>military which John quotes so uncritically had, as recently as
>>the previous November, reduced the 200-foot-long UFOs at
>>Levelland, Texas, to mere ball lightning, which is ordinarily
>>the size of a basketball at its largest. Clearly, the Brazilian
>>Navy, which knew a whole lot more about Trindade than did a U.S.
>>Naval attache telling his superiors what they wanted to hear, is
>>by far the more credible source here.)

>Levelland? Now, who is changing the subject? Anyway, I agree
>with you that no convincing explanation has been offered to
>explain these incidents, although it can be argued that this is
>because Blue Book failed to investigate it systematically,
>leaving us with a collection of rather incoherent accounts. Most
>of them don't even seem to agree on what the weather was like at
>the time.

When I responded to John's larger message earlier, I neglected
the chance here to plug Donald R. Burleson's eye-opening article
"Levelland, Texas, 1957: Case Reopened," in International UFO
Reporter (IUR), Vol. 28, No. 1 (2003). The entire issue, which
among other articles includes my piece on previously unpublished
19th- and early 20th-Century accounts of aerial anomalies, is
available, postage paid, for $6 from

J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies
2457 West Peterson Avenue
Chicago, Illinois 60659.

We appreciate your support. Believe me, we need it. Thanks.


Jerry Clark








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                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:20:14 -0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:01:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 21:54:04 +0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:55:31 -0200
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

<snip>

>What I don't understand is why Barauna seems to have told Fontes
>that he was on deck when the events took place (even being so
>specific as to mention the camera he had left behind in his
>cabin), and apparently told you that he was sick in his cabin
>when the alarm was raised.

He didn't told that only to me, he told to everyone. That was
his report until he died: he was sea-sick somewhere in the ship,
apart from the group in the deck. Could he had been laying down
in the deck, maybe in the rear part of it, but not with
everybody else? Maybe. I always understood it easily that he
wasn't with the crew, not with the group of people. As the ship
isn't much big, doesn't matter where he was laying down,
actually, because he could have heard the crew alarm about the
UFO from just about wherever he was.

>And where does this bit about "the ship's commander insisted
>that Barauna took the pictures" come from. It's not in Barauna's
>account, he took the photos on his own initiative.

So I heard that version from him, and read it. Also, there is a
lot of info about the ship's commander role in this. The word
"insist" was misplaced. He didn't have to insist. He only "made
sure" that the UFO was documented by Bara=FAna. And, of course, it
wouldn't be required, as Bara=FAna was a professional and wouldn't
miss the chance. If can review all that by simply reading the
material published. All the sources.

>My friend, as Jerry would doubtless say, stop before you tie
>youself in even more hopeless knots.

Tie myself? You are indeed a funny guy. Please go back in your
reading and check it all again. You are missing so many points
in this case that it seems useless to debate it with you. See, I
understand that you don't read Portuguese, but it is not an
excuse. I had to learn English to understand better the cases
from USA and other countries that I was interested in. So,
please, do your part, learn Portuguese and read the material. Or
ask someone to translate for you. Again: all the sources.


A. J.







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   Nov > Nov 24

                 Re: Trindade: The Final Explanation - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:49:59 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:10:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade: The Final Explanation - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 20:55:03 -0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade: The Final Explanation

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 12:52:52 -0600
>>Subject: Trindade: The Final Explanation


Sigh, John,

>This business about "negative witnesses" is pretty silly and you
>are intelligent enough to know it.

The latest feint. John Harney, I would hope, is intelligent
enough to understand that the absence of negative witnesses
creates serious, perhaps insurmountable, difficulties for the
hoax hypothesis (just as, I've noted before, critics of JFK
conspiracy theories have argued that the absence of conspirator,
or even close to conspirator, testimony after 40 years suggests
there was, in fact, no assassination conspiracy). As a hard-core
anti-UFO ideologue - anyone who questions this characterization
need only read Magonia, as I have since the early 1970s - he
can't admit that, thus the feeble wheeze above. A wave of the
wand, an utterance of the magic word "silly," and the problem is
solved!

>However, it is not logical to demand that sceptics
>should produce negative evidence. People making extraordinary
>claims need to produce positive evidence if they expect to be
>taken seriously.

Which of course we have, which is why you're in so much trouble.
Beyond that, I will indulge myself in a sentence's worth of
sarcasm:

No, I guess skeptics can say anything they want, and they don't
have to be held to standards of evidence.

Which, of course, is sheer, self-serving twaddle. Nice try,
though. It's just too bad you're not dealing with morons, who
might actually believe this.

In a controversy, only those who assert nothing at all have no
obligation to produce evidence to support their assertion. My
good and still much-missed friend, the late Marcello Truzzi (a
true, not pretend, psychosocial inquirer into anomalous claims),
coined the phrase, often misattributed to Carl Sagan, that
extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence - a maxim
Marcello disavowed later in life as a dubious formulation and
something of a tautology. Unlike some skeptics we could name,
Marcello was able to change his mind over time and further
reflection, and intellectual evolution defined his life (all the
more reason, by the way, to mourn his passing, which ended his
plan to write an intellectual autobiography).

Marcello, in any event, spent much of his career frustrated as
the maxim was repeatedly used to justify the sort of self-
innoculation and dodging of intellectual responsibility that
John Harney asserts above.

In his 1989 essay "Skeptics and Pseudo-skeptics" Marcello wrote
(his italics), "If a critic asserts that there is evidence for
disproof, that he has a _negative hypothesis_ ... he is _making
a claim_ and therefore also _has to bear a burden of proof_."

Instead of proof we all get lots of hand-waving from the Johns,
claims of contradictions that don't amount to anything more than
the predictable confusions of human testimony, rank speculation
in response to clear and serious problems, and, finally, the
assertion that "skeptics" can say anything they want and have no
obligation to produce supporting evidence (as above) because,
after all, "skeptics" are closer to divine wisdom than the rest
of us and thus different rules apply to them.

Jeez, maybe you guys should just become mediums or channelers
from dead rationalists and then the rest of us can go directly
to you for ultimate truth. Then we won't have to grapple with
always complicated, vexing issues of proof and disproof, strong
evidence and weak evidence, clarity and ambiguity, reasonable
argument and irrational flailing.

John, you and Rimmer have now gone through a dizzying number of
rationalizations about the missing negative witnesses, and I
doubt that you've persuaded anybody except yourselves, which in
my observation is never very hard (the forthcoming Magonia piece
on Trindade ought to be an especially amusing and instructive
example of that; I hope you post it so that the rest of us can
have fun with it). But the question remains:

Where are those negative witnesses to this - as your scenario
necessarily requires - absurd and easily exposable hoax?

Unless you find them, all reasonable persons will conclude that
you have a profound, arguably fatal, problem, and one that only
gets worse as you continue to weave and spin, and to serve
ideological interests that are larger, one infers, than simple
intellectual honesty.


Jerry Clark








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               Re: Trindade: The Final Explanation - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:13:49 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:08:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade: The Final Explanation - Lehmberg


>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 20:55:03 -0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade: The Final Explanation

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 12:52:52 -0600
>>Subject: Trindade: The Final Explanation

>>Patient and gentle Listfolk:

>>I am sure you've been just as puzzled about the pelicanists'
>>inability, despite repeated challenges, to come up with the name
>>of a single negative witness to the Trindade sighting and
>>photographs. This despite inquiries by the Brazilian Navy,
>>press, ufologists, and debunkers and the passing of nearly five
>>decades. The pelicanists have yet to cite a single source which
>>confirms what they need to believe - that there were no
>>witnesses to the UFO's passage - and so far only succeeded in
>>creating an imaginary personality for the photographer as a
>>devious, possibly sinister character.

><snip>

>Jerry,

>This business about "negative witnesses" is pretty silly and you
>are intelligent enough to know it.

Patent nonsense... and the question is begged regarding _your_
level of intelligence in this matter, sir. Indeed, what's
_exceptionally_ silly is the continuance of demands for more
witnesses, when it's surmised from the outset that there are
_no_ amount of witnesses that would satisfy one of your
philosophical cant, mean intransigence in the discussion, or
apparent ability to think out of the box.

>The figure of 300 men on the
>Almirante Saldanha apparently originated with Olavo Fontes, who
>apparently obtained it from contacts in the Navy. Though some
>have remarked that it seems rather high, it seems reasonable to
>me if the ship was still being used for training purposes, while
>on the IGY scientific mission.
>

...Which is an observation that only adds an _illusion_ of
rational thinking to this discussion, while highlighting the
earned presumption that you make this argument, at all, only to
refute a threat to your worldview... and _never_ a support in an
effort to expand same.

>Obviously, they couldn't all have been witnesses, but it's
>difficult to see where Barauna got his precise figure of 48
>from. Did someone obtain 48 witness statements and tell him
>about them? If so, why are none of them available to
>researchers?

Which is a pretty safe question to ask given that nearly 50
years have passed and most of the witnesses are likely dead. All
that time passed, mind you, with nary a disparaging squawk from
either _your_ *flock* or other disinterested persons who _were_
there and said it "never happened...". One could almost imagine
that you and Mr. Rimmer con-fabed the duplicitous fabric of this
whole debate out of "debunker's burlap", incorrectly reasoning
that while you couldn't _win_ the argument, you couldn't lose it
either, and so your shared mugging of the affair casts enough
doubt on it so the *casual* observer is dissuaded from adding it
to her list of probables justifying serious investigation of
UFOs, at all! Is _that_ your game, sir?

>Most of the accounts say that the UFO was visible for only a
>very short time - less than a minute according to some - so
>those who saw it would have to be standing close to Barauna and
>looking in the right direction.

A minute is a freaking _eternity_ with a UFO in the sky overhead
(_one_ guy had a enough time to snap a highly vetted picture of
it!), and a startled "HEY" takes only a fraction of a second to
get companions looking in the same direction as the pointing
observer, and the cry go out to every person in ear shot!
Moreover, the high excitement on the deck of the ship is
documented, I understand.

>Those who were not in a position
>to see it would be unlikely to make any public statements about
>it, especially in view of the controversy it generated (the
>newspapers took sides, some accepting the report, others
>sceptical). However, it is not logical to demand that sceptics
>should produce negative evidence.

You're _not_ being asked to produce negative evidence, sir. You
are being asked to produce _positive_ evidence in the form of a
person that can provide testimony for you that, at a place and a
time..., something did _not_ occur. Negative evidence has
nothing to do with it, forgetting for a moment that you can't
prove a negative, anyway.

>People making extraordinary
>claims need to produce positive evidence if they expect to be
>taken seriously.

More nonsense. The evidence you speak of has been on record for
two score and almost seven years! It's your abject inability to
produce positive evidence for your own contention that has you
all *verklempt*, sir. Moreover, Trindade has been taken
seriously for all of that time, and it's only Mr. Rimmer and
yourself (and Mr. Mori) insisting that we play out this
meaningless, unbrave, and back-stepping charade of ufological
disaccreditation.

>The real reason why John Rimmer and I are so sceptical about the
>case is not some kind of ideological objection to the notion of
>anomalous events, but the numerous contradictions and
>inconsistencies in the various accounts of this incident.

I'm not _remotely_ convinced of that, sir. I believe you and Mr.
Rimmer _are_ dyed in the wool and pedantic anti-ufological
ideologues.

>Therefore, we are planning to prepare another article about the
>case, which will probably appear in Magonia Supplement. This
>will set out as many of these discrepancies as possible in an
>orderly manner, making it easier for researchers to resolve
>them.

I'll alert the media. Additionally, the Magonia Supplement is
not known for it's balanced cant. I'd sooner look for a liberal
tract in a Libertarian blog...

>We don't propose to argue about the photographs. I'm pleased to
>see that Kentaro Mori and Brad Sparks are still slugging it out
>concerning them. Do you think it will end in a knockout, or
will >one of them win on points?

Is Mr. Mori using 21st Century computer technology to
demonstrate how a hoax was perpetrated almost 50 years ago,
bereft of the same technology? If so, you have an answer to your
question, Mr. Harding.

>By the way, who is the referee?

I suggest you recuse _yourself_, sir.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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                        Re: 1978 Italian Wave - Russo

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:23:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:06:03 -0500
Subject: Re: 1978 Italian Wave - Russo


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:47:25 +0000
>Subject: Re: 1978 Italian Wave

>>From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:11:58 +0100
>>Subject: 1978 Italian Wave [was: A 1957 Wave Comparison]

>>Quite an exceptional year, indeed, even though it seemed
>>limited to our country, as far as we've been able to ascertain:
>>there was no global wave in 1978, as opposed to (say) 1952, 1973
>>or 1954.

>Edoardo and List,

>Referring to my book, The UFO Evidence, Vol. II (pp. 348-358),
>you will find me stating that the 1978 wave was "perhaps the
>largest worldwide wave of all time." It was, indeed, global.

>I give many representative examples of cases in the U.S.,
>Argentina, the Middle East, Australia and New Zealand.

>Eddie Bullard also defines it as a "pandemic wave," both
>geographically widespread and long-lasting.

>It is true that more reports came out of Italy, but it was not
>confined to Italy.

>Since very few people apparently have read my book, a lot of my
>research findings are not being taken into account.

Hello Dick,

First of all, let me assure you that I'm not only one of those
"few people" who did read your most valuable book, "The UFO
Evidence - Vol. II", but also one of those fewer readers who
used it as a research tool, since I dulye and carefully looked
through its pages for (and photocopied for our files) all and
any reference to either Italian reports or "special interest
items" (eg. angel hair reports) which are the subject of one
among CISU many research/catalogue projects (please see
www.ufodatanet.org/udncgi/wgindex_i.idc for a detailed and
updated list, in English).

Now to the specific point: as I wrote, the Italian Center for
UFO Studies devoted its 13th annual congress to "The 1978 UFO
wave, twenty years later" (Florence, 30 May 1998). My own paper
was devoted to precisely the international scene, that year,
with the aim of comparing the Italian wave with the rest of the
world.

 From my own memory of that year (when I was already active
as an international relations officer for the journal "Clypeus"
and for the Italian Centro Ufologico Nazionale, CUN), I'd have
said a truly global wave had occurred, indeed.

But that sensation did evaporate as soon as I did my own
homework in preparing some data tables for my paper.

I had already scanned the available literature (we'd long been
keeping an open file on that year, also as of the international
scene) and I also asked several national UFO organizations for
their numbers of reported UFO sightings in 1977, 1978 and 1979,
so to have a proper perspective of relative trends.

If you just have a look at the posters I presented at the congress
(which are available on the webpage:

http://www.cisu.org/1978wave.htm

you will appreciate the following:

- a most useful tool would have been an international catalogue,
like UfoCat, but it was not updated as of 1978, in the version
available at that time; (both your book and Larry Hatch's
database are not general-sightings catalogues, but rather a
selection of "best cases", whose dinamics may have a behaviour
different from the raw reported sightings, as of numbers in
time;) the only worldwide catalogue of 1978 sightings I was able
to find is the one by Contact International (UK), but it was
evidently unbalanced and incomplete (a few hundred cases in all,
where Italy had less than 20 entr=ECes, out of the 1500+ we
filed);

- I only found or got sistematically collected national data for
UK, France, Norway, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland (in Europe),
plus Mexico, Australia and two regional catalogues of Ontario
and Tasmania;

- for some countries, those weren't ufologists' files but
official (government) data: UK, France, Australia;

- a notable omission are the USA, but I wasn't able to find a
comprehensive national database for that country (only few
apparently incomplete catalogues); does one exist, and do you or
anybody else know of one?

As of the conclusions, I will save List readers from the boring
statistical tests results, but the tables and graphics are
clear enough for all to see: with the exception of Italy (and
possibly Mexico and the regional data from Ontario and Tasmania,
but with differences totaling dozens of cases only, as opposed
to the hundreds).

I had to change my mind and my paper plainly told there was no
evidence of a global 1978 UFO wave, based upon the available
data. I repeat it, now.

Of course, I am prepared to change that opinion, again, if
anybody can show me new, different data.

BTW, I'm still eager to get national numbers for any country I
missed. Any volunteer to share data?

Best regards


Edoardo Russo
Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici
CISU, Casella postale 82, 10100 Torino
tel 011.30.78.63 - fax 011.54.50.33
http://www.cisu.org









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   Nov > Nov 24

                Re: Abductions And Twin Pregnacies - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:36:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 15:35:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions And Twin Pregnacies - Gonzalez


>From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 20:25:57 -0000
>Subject: Re: Abductions And Twin Pregnacies

>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:35:22 +0100
>>Subject: Abductions And Twin Pregnacies

>Missing Embryo Syndrome (or Missing Fetus Syndrome) is often
>cited by abduction researchers. But there is, so far as I'm
>aware, no medical evidence that supports any exotic explanation
>for this phenome

>The issue came up at the Abduction Study Conference held at MIT
>on June 13 - 17, 1992. John G. Miller presented a paper entitled
>"Lack of Proof for Missing Embryo/Fetus Syndrome", and cited the
>research of his colleague Dr. Richard M. Neal Jr. A number of
>prosaic explanations for apparent disappearing pregnancies were
>reviewed.

>A Google search on the term "Vanishing Twin Syndrome" will lead
>you to medical (not ufological) data on this phenomenon. What
>seems to happen is that a non-viable fetus spontaneously aborts,
>with the material being absorbed by the mother, the placenta, or
>the surviving twin.

Nick, I know all about that "Missing Embryo/Fetus Syndrome".
Thanks.

I was asking specifically for cases of women abductees who are
pregnant with twins and then mysteriously lose one of t he
fetuses. Any case history or it was just another of those
exaggerations so frequent in Ufology?


Luis R. Gonzalez Manso







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                Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:53:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 15:37:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - Gehrman


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:39:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax"

>As far as the Pentagon planning an ET hoax is concerned... I'm
>not holding my breath.

>Nor do I agree with the claim that there are space weapons that
>could be used against inhabitants of the earth or against alien
>spaceships.....

Bruce,

Then what is the TR3b? And how are the elaborate crop circles
created? I see no reason that this technology coudn't be
converted to weapons, if that were necessary, and I doubt that
it is.

>And I doubt that anyone knows for certain whether supposed ET's
>are good guys or bad guys, for us or against us...... or whether
>they really care at all.

Good or bad isn't relevant. We are being manipulated, or at the
very least there is an attempt to manipulate us occurring right
now, and we should all be aware of it. I also disagree with the
"ET" designation for the creatures who are involved. There is
another possibility that most folk fail to consider: we share
this earth with other inhabitants, i.e. the creature being
dissected in the AA footage.

>Maybe they're just "doing their thing," whatever that is,
>whether that "thing" has negative or positive consequences for
>us.

My reason for investigating the UFO phenomena is to try to
understand the consequences and perhaps influence the outcome,
especially if I decide that the consequences seem negative.
Maybe I'm naive but I still think that knowledge is power, and
we're going to need all the power we can muster.

>To borrow and modify the title of O'Reilly's new book, ("Who's
>Looking Out for You?) are the aliens looking out for us?
>I wish I knew.
If we want to survive, we all need to look out for one another,
not panic, and be prepared.

>On the other hand maybe I don't wish I knew.
>Sometimes ignorance is (relative) bliss.

Maybe so but remember what happened to the Fore in New Guinea
after their blissful alien invasion. I don't think you want to
end up wearing a necktie to appease your new gods, and eating
your dead relatives.


Ed






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                   Re: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:25:44 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 16:39:06 -0500
Subject: Re: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - Hamilton


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:53:51 -0800
>Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax"

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:39:14 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax"

>>As far as the Pentagon planning an ET hoax is concerned... I'm
>>not holding my breath.

>>Nor do I agree with the claim that there are space weapons that
>>could be used against inhabitants of the earth or against alien
>>spaceships.....

>Then what is the TR3b? And how are the elaborate crop circles
>created? I see no reason that this technology coudn't be
>converted to weapons, if that were necessary, and I doubt that
>it is.

Ed, I know you are addressing this to Bruce, but I wanted to
leap in here with a statement.

What other sources beside Ed Fouche have verified the existence
of the TR3b?

>>And I doubt that anyone knows for certain whether supposed ET's
>>are good guys or bad guys, for us or against us...... or whether
>>they really care at all.

>Good or bad isn't relevant. We are being manipulated, or at the
>very least there is an attempt to manipulate us occurring right
>now, and we should all be aware of it. I also disagree with the
>"ET" designation for the creatures who are involved. There is
>another possibility that most folk fail to consider: we share
>this earth with other inhabitants, i.e. the creature being
>dissected in the AA footage.

If there are other creatures who share the earth with us, who
also have developed advanced technology, where on earth do they
reside?  Why haven't we detected signs of their habitat?

As for manipulation...who,why, and how?









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   Nov > Nov 24

                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:57:11 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 17:44:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Harney


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:52:06 -0600
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

<snip>

I've snipped most of it out because it concerns matters on which
we are never going to agree.

>You just about define "disingenuous" here, John. No one said
>Trindade was a military mission. Only you have said, or so I
>infer, that the Brazilian Navy is not a military organization
>with national-security responsibility, from which a spectacular
>UFO case could only distract its focus from defense - not to
>mention waste money, time, resources, and more. The Trindade
>case attracted attention from the military, the nation's
>civilian leadership, its press, and the curious from all over
>the world. If Barauna had conducted the risky (and easily
>exposable) hoax that you say he did, he would have been in
>trouble. Under these circumstances, militaries are remarkably
>humorless.
>
>Since you purport to hold the belief that militaries don't mind
>if people play jokes on them and make them look foolish to the
>whole world,

I don't remember saying that. Anyway, in this case the official
view seems to have been that it wasn't a hoax; the problem is
that many people found the evidence they (the Brazilian Navy)
published to be unconvincing.

>perhaps you can cite some cases from British
>military history in which pranksters in or among sailors or
>troops perpetrated stunts which resulted in an uproar comparable
>to Trindade's. (Let's leave UFOs out of this so as to prevent a
>whole other chain of argument.) Perhaps you can demonstrate that
>after being fooled in front of the whole world, the British
>military took it all in good humor and the prankster went on his
>merry way without consequences of any sort.

British military history. Well, to start with there was the famous HMS
Dreadnought hoax of 1910, which is briefly described at -

http://www.uah.edu/woolf/dread.html

Then there the hoaxes concerning the death of Lord Kitchener,
who perished in the sinking of HMS Hampshire on 5 June 1916. For
details see -

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/janestorey/THE%20sunday%20times.htm

<snip>

>It is, of course, proper to subject anything to critical
>examination. Which is not what you're doing. You're simply
>speculating and ignoring reasonable counter-argument. Your utter
>lack of interest in the missing negative witnesses should give
>no one confidence that you're doing anything other than
>defending a UFOphobic ideology masquerading as disinterested
>psychosocial inquiry.

I am not speculating; you are speculating as to what I am
thinking about the character of Barauna, the Brazilian Navy,
Project Blue Book, and are also fantasising about my "UFOphobic
ideology", whatever that might be. (I'll be going out shortly;
must check first to see there are no UFOs around.)

>It seems to me that a reasonable position for a genuine
>psychosocial inquirer or thoughtful skeptic would be something
>like this: "Yes, there is a case to be made for the photos and
>sighting, and the absence of negative witnesses is indeed a
>serious problem for the hoax interpretation. Still, until
>technical analyses and other research now being done into
>aspects of the case never before considered are completed, I
>will remain skeptical - given the extraordinary implications of
>the photos and my hesistancy to endorse them on the available
>evidence - and await further developments."

An  old saying occurs to me here - something about grandmothers
and eggs.

>If that were your position, all of us would have saved time and
>many thousands of words, and you wouldn't have had to speculate
>and invent all over the place. I really don't care that you
>disbelieve Trindade; what I do object to are sloppy,
>unconvincing, disingenuous, guess-laden arguments against it.

I haven't invented anything. Much of the testimony appears to be
inconsistent or unavailable, and the photograph evidence is, as
we are seeing from the arguments between Brad Sparks and Kentaro
Mori, perhaps capable of differing interpretations.


John Harney








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   Nov > Nov 24

                         13th Laughlin UFO Congress

From: Bob Brown <ufocongress@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:02:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:16:58 -0500
Subject: 13th Laughlin UFO Congress


Greetings Everyone:

Just a quick note to let you all know that the finalized
schedule for our upcoming conference is available on our web
site, along with all prices, transportation info, registration
forms and film festival entry forms. For more details, see:

http://www.ufocongress.com


Print brochures are going out this week. If you are not on our
mailing list, or need a quantity to share with a group, let us
know and we will send them to you.

Below is the short list of speakers, and all are confirmed at
this time. And for those of you who may not be familiar with the
event, the prices start at $399.00 per person/double occupancy
(and this includes hotel accommodations for 8 nights, all
conference lectures and films, the Wednesday Cocktail Party and
Saturday Closing Banquet.)


13th Annual Convention & Film Festival

February 8 - 14, 2004
Flamingo Resort
Laughlin, Nevada USA

Invited Speakers


Sunday

Jim Marrs - The truths behind 9-11 and the Iraq war. Contact
cases in Montana.


Monday

Ed & Kris Sherwood - Crop Circle Answers, and extraordinary new
UFO footage

Matthew Hurley (U.K.) - Author of "The Alien Chronicles"

Joe Mcmoneagle - Author of "Stargate Chronicles", and leading
Remote Viewing expert.

Wynn Free & David Wilcock - "The Reincarnation of Edgar Cayce"


Tuesday

Prof. James Mccanney - Author Of "Atlantis to Tesla - The
Kolbrin Connection"

Dr. Claude Swanson - Author of "The Synchronized Universe: New
Science of the Paranormal"

Adrian Dvir (Israel) - Author of "Healing Entities & Aliens"

Russell Callaghan (U.K.) - Hot new footage out of Europe


Wednesday

George Filer - "Filers Files" - cases George has researched,
plus his own experiences.

Rich Dolan - The greatest show in the quadrant - Humanity's
impending flame-out & the presence of others.

Haktan Akdogan (Turkey) - New info on UFO activity in Europe,
and government involvement

Stan Gordon - Producer of "Kecksburg - The Untold Story"


Thursday

Open Mic Session For Experiencers - Led by Mary Rodwell

Mary Rodwell (Australia) - Author of "Awakening: How ET Contact
Can Transform Your Life"

Budd Hopkins & Carol Rainey - Co-Authors of "Sight Unseen"

Leah Haley - Author of "Unlocking Alien Closets: Abductions,
Mind Control & Spirituality"


Friday

Riley Martin - Experiencer/Author of "The Coming of Tan"

Lisette Larkins - Author of "Talking to Extraterrestrials" and
Calling on Extraterrestrials"

A. J. Gevaerd (Brazil) - Top researcher from Brazil brings new
cases from South America

Col. Wendelle Stevens - The new case of Martin Wiesengrun of E.
Germany.

Saturday

Michael Horn - The Meier Contacts: The key to our future and our
survival

Dr. Norman Bergrun - Evidence of ET Intelligence (visual
evidence from Voyager & Apollo )

Santiago Yturria Garza (Mexico) - Recent activity in Mexico and
the U.K.

Daniel Sheehan - The direction in which our movement should
focus our efforts now though 2012.


(ALL SPEAKERS ARE CONFIRMED AS OF 11/15//2003)

This schedule is subject to change - but only if necessary!








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   Nov > Nov 24

             Re: UFO Follows Three Mechanics In Salta Argentina

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:54:01 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 17:41:42 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Follows Three Mechanics In Salta Argentina


>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:57:27 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO Follows Three Mechanics In Salta Argentina

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 03:16:27 -0800
>>Subject: Re: UFO Follows Three Mechanics In Salta Argentina

>>>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:49:41 -0500
>>>Subject: UFO Follows Three Mechanics in Salta Argentina

>>>SOURCE: Diario El Tribuno (newspaper)
>>>DATE: November 21, 2003

>>>UFO FOLLOWS THREE MECHANICS IN SALTA FOR TWO HOURS

<snip>


>>Is there any indication what these truly unbelievable events
>>were?

>Hi Larry--

>The light "visited" the three mechanics again. The second part
>of the account was posted yesterday. Mercedes Casas is trying
>to patch me through to the mechanic shop for a quick interview.


Hi Scott:

Ah good! I hope you get thru. Newspapers have a way of screwing
up the details (date, time, location), sometimes exaggerating
things. Hopefully the witnesses can clarify that and more.

I saw the second part now, that the same "light" came back at
close range. Somehow I led myself to believe that the second
part would be more surprising than the first.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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   Nov > Nov 25

                        Re: 1978 Italian Wave - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:33:00 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:43:31 -0500
Subject: Re: 1978 Italian Wave - Hall


>From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:23:27 +0100
>Subject: Re: 1978 Italian Wave

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:47:25 +0000
>>Subject: Re: 1978 Italian Wave

>>>From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:11:58 +0100
>>>Subject: 1978 Italian Wave [was: A 1957 Wave Comparison]

>>>Quite an exceptional year, indeed, even though it seemed
>>>limited to our country, as far as we've been able to ascertain:
>>>there was no global wave in 1978, as opposed to (say) 1952, 1973
>>>or 1954.

>>Edoardo and List,

>>Referring to my book, The UFO Evidence, Vol. II (pp. 348-358),
>>you will find me stating that the 1978 wave was "perhaps the
>>largest worldwide wave of all time." It was, indeed, global.
>
>>I give many representative examples of cases in the U.S.,
>>Argentina, the Middle East, Australia and New Zealand.
>
>>Eddie Bullard also defines it as a "pandemic wave," both
>>geographically widespread and long-lasting.
>
>>It is true that more reports came out of Italy, but it was not
>>confined to Italy.
>
>>Since very few people apparently have read my book, a lot of my
>>research findings are not being taken into account.

>Hello Dick,

>First of all, let me assure you that I'm not only one of those
>"few people" who did read your most valuable book, "The UFO
>Evidence - Vol. II", but also one of those fewer readers who
>used it as a research tool, since I dulye and carefully looked
>through its pages for (and photocopied for our files) all and
>any reference to either Italian reports or "special interest
>items" (eg. angel hair reports) which are the subject of one
>among CISU many research/catalogue projects (please see
>www.ufodatanet.org/udncgi/wgindex_i.idc for a detailed and
>updated list, in English).

>Now to the specific point: as I wrote, the Italian Center for
>UFO Studies devoted its 13th annual congress to "The 1978 UFO
>wave, twenty years later" (Florence, 30 May 1998). My own paper
>was devoted to precisely the international scene, that year,
>with the aim of comparing the Italian wave with the rest of the
>world.

>From my own memory of that year (when I was already active
>as an international relations officer for the journal "Clypeus"
>and for the Italian Centro Ufologico Nazionale, CUN), I'd have
>said a truly global wave had occurred, indeed.

>But that sensation did evaporate as soon as I did my own
>homework in preparing some data tables for my paper.

<snip>

>I had to change my mind and my paper plainly told there was no
>evidence of a global 1978 UFO wave, based upon the available
>data. I repeat it, now.

>Of course, I am prepared to change that opinion, again, if
>anybody can show me new, different data.

>BTW, I'm still eager to get national numbers for any country I
>missed. Any volunteer to share data?


Edoardo,

In my research for The UFO Evidence, Vol. II, I also consulted
people in many countries and did an extensive review of the
literature.

My own sighting files for 1978 are 8-10 inches thick of manila
folders containing everything from detailed sighting report
forms to newspaper clippings. I had to label the folders by
country and region to break them down into more mangeable units.

Perhaps you need to visit the Donald E. Keyhoe Archives and see
for yourself?

I conclude that it was a major worldwide wave based both on raw
numbers of reports and on solid cases that emerge after careful
screening and investigation.

I agree that a catalogue for 1978 would be useful and important.

If someone provided the funding for it, I could compile such a
catalogue. Right now I am compiling a catalogue of the 1966-67
sighting wave for the Fund for UFO Research. It probably was the
largest UFO wave ever no matter how you define it.


 - Dick








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                 Re: Red Dwarf The British TV Show - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:52:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:46:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Red Dwarf The British TV Show - Rimmer


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:58:45 EST
>Subject: Red Dwarf The British TV Show

>Had a great chuckle the other day recalling a British
>sci-fi/comedy television show called "Red Dwarf". I had seen
>only two episodes of it but laughed so hard my eyes hurt.

>A friend of mine from Britain who's a popular actor there and
>here reminded me about the show and we were rolling on the floor
>just discussing it.

>If you get a chance and need a break from the 'monsters from the
>ID' see if it's at your local store or on the air. It's well
>worth it.


And can it be mere coincidence that two of the main characters
in Red Dwarf are called Rimmer and Creighton (spelled 'Kryton')?


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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                          Carl Sagan's UFO Reversal

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 16:26:52 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:19:14 -0500
Subject: Carl Sagan's UFO Reversal


Good Day Listers,

Interesting to note Sagan's early "pro-UFO stance," as reported
by Donald Keyhoe. When did he make his reversal?


Regards,

Frank Warren








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                      Sagan In Stars & Stripes 11-26-92

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:20:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:20:06 -0500
Subject: Sagan In Stars & Stripes 11-26-92





Date: 01-04-95 (03:18)
  To: ALL
From: SJOHNS19@FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU, Steven Vincent Johnson
Subj: Carl Sagan - Stars and Stripes Newspaper article, Nov. 26, 1
Read: (N/A)
Conf: U-AltParaUFO

Subject: Carl Sagan - Stars and Stripes Newspaper article, Nov. 26, 1962
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 23:05:00 UNDEFINED
Organization: University of Wisconsin


Carl Sagan Speech

An Associated Press (AP) article in the Stars and Stripes, A
U.S. military newspaper

Date: Monday, November 26, 1962


The following Stars and Stripes news article was retrieved from a
microfilm reel from the State Historical Society located in
Madison, Wisconsin. For further information you can reach the
Microfilm Reading Room by calling 1 (608) 264-6536. The specific
microfilm reel contains the European version of the Stars and
Stripes military news paper for October through December 1962.
(There are also Pacific and U.S. mainland versions of the Stars
and Stripes, which didn't carry the following AP article.) The
identification tag for this microfilm reel is: P29240. I wish
to thank Mr. James Easton who resides in the mythic land of
Scotland (TEXJE@vaxb.heriot-watt.ac.uk) for tracking down the
date of this article as well as the specific newspaper. It
would appear that a number of UFO magazines back in the 60s and
70s may have drawn much of their intellectual ammunition from
this AP article, particularly since a prestigious Assistant
Professor from Harvard University gave the speech. (For those
interested, I draw additional personal speculations at the end
of this article concerning the issue of public imagery and the
health of one's professional career.)

For those who wish a photocopy of the article. Send me A SELF
ENCLOSED STAMPED ENVELOPE (A 32 cent stamp for U.S. mail please,
or one U.S. dollar if from outside continental U.S.A.) and send
it to:

Steven V. Johnson Attn: Carl Sagan Article - 11/26/62 702
Eugenia Avenue Madison, Wisconsin 53705

PS: And if you are nice I'll even enclose a freebie post card
from one of my own paintings on science fiction, astronomy, and
mythic UFO art.


* * * * * * * * * * * START OF ARTICLE * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Prof Says Beings From Outer Space Have Visited Earth

LOS ANGELES. (AP) - Some of the best scientific minds in the
country were stumped when a slender, dark-haired young man
chalked on the blackboard this equation:

N equals R FP NE FL FI FC L.

The speaker was Dr. Carl Sagan, a 28 year-old assistant
professor of astronomy at Harvard University.

His audience consisted of several hundred members of the
American Rocket Society, gathered for his luncheon address.

The equation was his way of expressing the mathematical
probability that intelligent beings from outer space have
visited earth.

Sagan soberly explained that in his equation N Stands for the
number of advanced technical civilizations in the universe
possessing the capability of interstellar communication.

R is the mean rate of star formation averaged over the lifetime
of the galaxy.

FP is the fraction of stars with planetary systems.

NE is the mean number of planets in each system with
environments favorable for the origin of life.

FL is the fraction of such planets on which life does develop.

FI is the fraction of such inhabited planets on which
intelligent life with manipulative abilities rises during the
lifetime of the local sun.

FC is the fraction of planets populated by intelligent beings on
which advanced technical civilizations rises.

And L is the lifetime of this technical civilization.

Sagan said information in his formula is based on current
estimates by astronomers. In making calculations, he assigned
each symbol an arbitrary numerical value.

As expressed in numbers, Sagan said, the formula means that at
least 1 million of the 100 billion stars in our Milky Way galaxy
have planets which have developed civilizations capable of
travel between the stars.

"Let's say that each of these civilizations sends out one
interstellar expedition per year," he said.

"That means that every star, such as our sun, would be visited
at least once every million years. In some systems where these
beings found life, they would make more frequent visits.
 There's a strong probability, then, that they have visited
earth every few thousand years.

"It is not out of the question that artifacts of these visits
still exist or even that some kind of base is maintained,
possibly automatically, within the solar system, to provide
continuity for successive expeditions.

"Because of weathering and the possibility of detection and
interference by the inhabitants of earth it would be preferable
not to erect such a base on the earth's surface. The moon seems
one reasonable alternative.

"Forthcoming photographic reconnaissance of the moon from space
vehicles - particularly of the back - might bear these
possibilities in mind."

At a news conference Sagan predicted man himself would be
capable of interstellar flight at close to the speed of light
"within a century or two."

Asked if he believed in flying saucers, he said: "I do believe
there are objects which have hot be identified."


* * * * * * * * END of Stars and Stripes Article * * * * * * *



 PERSONAL THOUGHTS ON SAGAN'S 1962 SPEECH

One can only imagine the discomfort (as well as the lesson of
cultivating an undesirable public image through
guilt-by-association with UFO theorists) a very young 28 year
old assistant professor trying to gain tenure at a prestigious
university must have felt when he began to find his theoretical
mathematical speculations and conclusions showing up in
fragmented bits and pieces in UFO magazines of that era. I
believe there is ample evidence to suggest that a scientific/
academic professional career would be adversely affected if one
became associated with what was (and often still is) considered
the lunatic fringe element groups of society. Not the kind of
PR one wishes to advertise to one's peers who hold the purse
strings while attempting to win the position of Associate
Professorship as well as tenure!

It may also help explain why Mr. Sagan for most of his
professional and highly successful PUBLIC career appears to have
been a staunch skeptic concerning analysis of UFO evidence, as
if to distance himself as much as possible from his earlier
comments. For further evidence concerning Mr. Sagan's personal
sensitivity to the issue of public imagery I would recommend
interested scholars read pages 205 - 208 of Hogland's book
"Monuments of Mars" for a fascinating dialogue exchange that was
alleged to have occurred between these two individuals. I
realize many like to portray Hogland, who was a former advisor
to Walter Cronkite CBS news on the science of NASA's epic
journeys to the moon during the Apollo Program, as a self
serving idiot with illusions of grandeur. Never the less I feel
it is appropriate to mention here that Sagan has always had the
right to sue Mr. Hogland if he felt Hogland had misquoted him or
misinterpreted his intentions. To the best of my knowledge Mr.
Sagan has not done so, and I would also mention that it would
appear that Mr. Sagan has indeed used the court of law when he
felt his name was being defamed in some fashion as I believe he
recently attempted to do so against Apple Computer Inc.


Steve

---------------------------------------------------






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                     Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:30:20 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:20:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:57:11 -0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:52:06 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?


Sigh, John,

>I've snipped most of it out because it concerns matters on which
>we are never going to agree.

In short:

The total absence of witness testimony affirming your theory -
namely, that this was an absurdly exposable hoax, even if no
one in a position to do so has ever managed to do what a bright
high-school investigator could have accomplished - is irrelevant
because you say it is.

I note, too, that you let stand your earlier statement that
skeptics don't have to produce evidence for their assertions,
only proponents do.

>>Since you purport to hold the belief that militaries don't mind
>>if people play jokes on them and make them look foolish to the
>>whole world,

>I don't remember saying that. Anyway, in this case the official
>view seems to have been that it wasn't a hoax; the problem is
>that many people found the evidence they (the Brazilian Navy)
>published to be unconvincing.

"Many people"? Not the Brazilian military personnel,
journalists, and ufologists who actually investigated the case.
The "many people" consist in substantial part of those who have
judged the case as you do, from an armchair across an ocean and
close to five decades later. You have yet to cite the single
testimony of somebody who was there - in a position to judge the
truth with the evidence of his own senses when the UFO allegedly
flew by and the pictures supposedly were snapped - and who yet
declared the incident "unconvincing" and fictitious. In other
words, one of those mysteriously missing negative witnesses whom
we are regularly directed to forget about.

>>perhaps you can cite some cases from British
>>military history in which pranksters in or among sailors or
>>troops perpetrated stunts which resulted in an uproar comparable
>>to Trindade's. (Let's leave UFOs out of this so as to prevent a
>>whole other chain of argument.) Perhaps you can demonstrate that
>>after being fooled in front of the whole world, the British
>>military took it all in good humor and the prankster went on his
>>merry way without consequences of any sort.

>British military history. Well, to start with there was the famous HMS
>Dreadnought hoax of 1910, which is briefly described at -

To make his point, John reaches back to the early years of the
20th Century, to a world and a military notably different from
the modern one that emerged after World War II. When examined,
neither example is exactly compelling or strikingly relevant to
the issue of the supposed Trindade hoax.

>http://www.uah.edu/woolf/dread.html

Here's the text of that:

"One of the lighter moments of Virginia Woolf's life is when she
took part in a very public practical joke cooked up by her
brother Adrian Stephen and his friend and classmate Horace Cole.
On February 10, 1910, the three of them, along with three other
friends, dressed up as a group of foreign diplomats from
Abyssinia and British Foreign Office officials. The six
disguised friends requested to be taken on a tour of the H.M.S.
Dreadnought, the most important warship in England at the time.
The captain and crew of the ship were fooled, and they showed
Woolf and company the secret area of the ship. The group even
imitated the foreign language! Horace could not let the joke end
there. He alerted the press about what they had done, and this
photograph was printed in The Daily Mirror."

John would have us believe it ended there. Not quite. According
to another source: "The media and political storm that broke out
in the wake of the hoax did little for Virginia's mental
equilibrium. She had already experienced one breakdown and was
well on her way toward another."

Another Virginia Woolf website remarks - correctly, obviously -
 that such a stunt would be all but impossible in later decades.

It was an innocent age, but even in that innocent age, as the
above indicates, controversy and outrage ensued, and Woolf
suffered accordingly -- possibly enough to satisfy any revenge-
minded admirals. The obviously humorous character of the prank,
coupled with the social positions and connections of the
hoaxers, no doubt innoculated them from legal retribution. I
imagine those who suffered were the poor saps who let them board
the ship.

>Then there the hoaxes concerning the death of Lord Kitchener,
>who perished in the sinking of HMS Hampshire on 5 June 1916. For
>details see -

>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/janestorey/THE%20sunday%20times.htm

For some reason I can't connect with that link, so I have gone
to the late Gordon Stein's excellent Encyclopedia of Hoaxes,
where we learn that this hoax was hatched in 1926, fully a
decade after Lord Kitchener's death in World War I, by a movie
publicist. It concerned the whereabouts of Kitchener's body, and
its intent was to generate interest in a forthcoming film, which
it didn't. Steiner notes, "This whole incident caused the
British Admiralty to finally issue an overdue report about the
secret mission to Russia that Lord Kitchener had been on when
his ship was sunk."

In short, the whole effect was not to raise national-security
concerns but to force some lethargic bureaucrats to do what they
ought to have done years before.

Not quite the same thing, by long, medium, or short shot, as the
hoaxing of a photograph of an alleged, potentially hostile
unknown aircraft from the deck of a Navy vessel, after which the
Navy devotes money, resources, and personnel to an investigation
which distracted it from its (from the hoax proponent's point of
view) real mission, namely the defense of Brazil. Then,
afterwards, to make matters worse, the Navy embraces the
testimony and the photos, and, even more appallingly, the
President - based on the reports given him by naval
investigators - publicly backs the sighting and photos as
genuine. The waters are deep indeed, and a guilty man caught in
a risky hoax would, almost surely would, have drowned in them.
The resulting scandal would have been immense.

Another obvious difference between these two feeble examples
from the British Navy and the rather more robust one from
Trindade is that the former were easily and quickly exposed
hoaxes. To this day, not a single one of the many participants
in or observers of the alleged hoax at Trindade has come forward
to expose it. The Johns have yet to produce an even modestly
plausible explanation for what others would judge a deafening
and telling silence. Perhaps in their hearts they suspect that
the answer is best expressed in another question: When somebody
doesn't exist, how can he speak?

You get A for effort, though, John, and I do - honestly -
appreciate that you tried to address the question.

>I am not speculating; you are speculating as to what I am
>thinking about the character of Barauna, the Brazilian Navy,
>Project Blue Book, and are also fantasising about my "UFOphobic
>ideology", whatever that might be.

Don't be ridiculous, John. All reading these words are referred
to Magonia, an always literate and interesting - if less often
persuasive - magazine which would be a kind of British
counterpart to CSICOP's Skeptical Inquirer if, unlike CSICOP's
openly debunking advocates, its contributors weren't
pretentious enough to pass themselves off as disinterested
observers of culture, psychology, and sociology. Beneath the
fancy wrapping, the product is an all too familiar one, I'm
afraid.


Jerry Clark







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                  Ivan T. Sanderson (1911-1973) A Biography

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:58:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:24:01 -0500
Subject: Ivan T. Sanderson (1911-1973) A Biography


Wonders, December 1992, pp. 65-67

by Mark A. Hall


Ivan T. Sanderson (1911-1973)

Twenty years ago an old friend died. He was a British subject
who chose to live in the U.S.A. During his life Ivan T.
Sanderson was first a nature writer and then avid fortean
author, devoting his later books and articles to mysterious
natural phenomena of all kinds. His life and work are difficult
to summarize adequately here. More information can be found in
an excellent biographical entry that appears in the National
Cyclopedia of American Biography, Vol. 57 (Clifton, NJ: J.T.
White, 1977), 192-194. The entry is unsigned but its
comprehensiveness and accuracy indicate that it could only have
been written by his widow and second wife, Sabina (who has also
written under the name Marion Fawcett).

Sanderson's earlier books are still cited today for his
observations on mammals (Living Mammals of the World), on
elephants (The Dynasty of Abu), 0n primates (The Monkey
Kingdom), on whales (Follow the Whale), and on jungles (Book of
Great Jungles). It can be said that he was always controversial.
One is as likely to find a disparaging off-hand remark made about
him in a popular science article of his day as to find a
reference citing his work. But such remarks were usually in the
nature of a cheap shot without the elaboration that would have
shown that Sanderson was incorrect. He was always taking
positions on the cutting edge of scientific inquiry.

His curiosity led him to pursue the mysteries of science full-
time. His later books included two on unidentified flying
objects (Uninvited Visitors and Invisible Residents) and three
collections of essays on a wide range of topics ("Things", More
"Things", and Investigating the Unexplained). His most
influential book has been his 525-page opus on the varieties of
Yeti/Bigfoot/Giant mysteries, Abominable Snowmen: Legend Come to
Life. It is the basis for all work done since that time in
pursuit of mysterious primates. Even the old guard of Bigfoot
hunters who predate his book owe him a debt. Without it the
awareness of Sasquatch/Bigfoot might have continued to be as
regional as, for example, the many lake monsters. I think this
book and Uninvited Visitors represent Ivan's best work. He did
his best to meld an open mind with the scientific rigor of his
early training.

His "Things" and More "Things" are very good but have not had a
greater influence because they appeared as paperbacks only and
have always been hard to find. The publishers, Pyramid Books,
were notorious for poor distribution of their line of books. Now
the works are out of print and much sought-after.

Sanderson had another impact during his lifetime that might
easily be overlooked. I lived through the years that his popular
articles were appearing in American magazines. I think those
articles on strange happenings (from sea monsters to UFOs) were
broadly influential in maintaining a healthy curiosity about our
world and a healthy awareness of the existence of things yet
undiscovered. As professional scientists slumbered through the
last half of the twentieth century, a few influential voices
such as Sanderson's reached the general public to pique
curiosities and to assure witnesses to strange happenings that
they were not alone and they were not crazy.

Sanderson's popular articles appeared in the Saturday Evening
Post in the decade following 1944 covering such topics as sea
monsters and living dinosaurs. From the late 1940's till his
death in 1973 popular articles appeared in True, This Week,
Sports Afield, Argosy, Saga, Fantastic Universe, and Fate. Many
of these periodicals will be hard to find preserved today even
in library stacks. But these were popular magazines read and re-
read by millions of people. They were bought by the ordinary
person and passed around, read in barber shops and in military
service day rooms around the globe. No one today reaches a
similar readership with these topics and with the solid
background that Sanderson gave to his articles.

Only one scientific establishment publication, an Italian
journal called Genus published in Rome, had the vision to print
some of Sanderson's later works on the unusual. From 1962-1969
they published four essays on the possible survival of primitive
sub-men.

Since Sanderson's death specific allegations have been
repeatedly published stating that he died from a brain tumor and
that condition caused peculiar behavior in his later years.
These allegations are complete rubbish and reflect only upon the
dubious credibility of the sources. I can personally refute them
because I was an assistant to Sanderson in the last few months
of his life and lived in his house at the time. I see no reason
to detail the man's medical history except to say that he died
from cancer in his abdomen for which he was treated by doctors
at the time. One of the things that occupied him almost up to
the day of his death was giving radio interviews by telephone to
numerous broadcasters around the country who were his old
friends. To the end he remained a forceful and entertaining
advocate of investigating true mysteries, despite the pain that
came with his illness.

Recently Ivan Sanderson came back into the news, briefly, upon
the revelation of a hoax in Florida in 1948. All the recent
discussions have been based upon an article in the St.
Petersburg Times for 11 June 1988. That article explains, in
convincing fashion, how large three-toed tracks were made on
beaches and stories were invented to fake the appearance of a
mystery in 1948. Ivan Sanderson investigated these and failed to
identify the hoaxed elements of the reports. This episode is a
lesson to all who would investigate such mysteries to look for
repetitive jokers such as perpetrated this hoax. It would be
unfair to Sanderson, however, to discuss this error as if it
were the only thing he had done. If we do this then we justify
the self-interested and pathetic flight by professional
scientists from any investigation of the mysteries that crop up
and are neglected. The possibilities of hoaxes,
misidentifications, and bogus elements introduced by debunkers
will always plague us. The professionals won't risk anything
because they stay away and invent excuses. Those who do
investigate take risks and the most active of them are open to
being burned. If we venture nothing, nothing will be gained.
This is the crux of why most professional scientists aren't
gaining anything and will be remembered as mere time-servers in
their professions.

In common with the rest [of] us, Ivan had flaws and made some
mistakes. Not all of his ideas will hold up and some will be put
aside with just cause. But his positive influence upon today's
world has been widespread. And the wisdom in much of his works
will be proven yet in years to come. This is a common
characteristic of the best fortean endeavors, that vindication
can only come many years later. The fortean problems are the
difficult questions that are routinely avoided for generations
by the boffins, as Ivan might have referred to the research
scientists. Sanderson deserves to be remembered for his
contributions to organizing the mysteries that still intrigue us
and for his unique encouragement to the generations now living
to explore this marvelous world of ours.


Selected Bibliography of Ivan T. Sanderson

ANIMAL TREASURE (1937, Viking Press)

CARIBBEAN TREASURE (1939, Viking Press)

LIVING TREASURE (1941, Viking Press)

ANIMAL TALES, editor (1946, Knopf)

HOW TO KNOW THE NORTH AMERICAN MAMMALS (1951, Little, Brown)

LIVING MAMMALS OF THE WORLD (1955, Hanover House)

FOLLOW THE WHALE (1956, Little, Brown)

ABOMINABLE SNOWMEN: LEGEND COME TO LIFE (1961, Philadelphia:
Chilton). An abridged paperback edition with additional
footnotes appeared in 1968 from Pyramid Books. That edition was
reprinted in 1977 by Harcourt Brace Jovanovich.

THE CONTINENT WE LIVE ON (1961, Random House)

THE DYNASTY OF ABU (1962, Knopf)

BOOK OF GREAT JUNGLES authored with David Loth (1965, Messner)

UNINVITED VISITORS (1967, Cowles Education Corp.)

"THINGS" (1967, Pyramid Books)

MORE "THINGS" (1969, Pyramid Books)

INVISIBLE RESIDENTS (1970, World)

INVESTIGATING THE UNEXPLAINED (1972, Prentice-Hall)

GREEN SILENCE (1974, David McKay)


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com







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   Nov > Nov 25

                       China: "The Truth is Out There"

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:24:05 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:58:16 -0500
Subject: China: "The Truth is Out There"


SOURCE: La Voz de Galicia (newspaper-Spain)

http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/inicio/noticia.jsp?CAT=126&TEXTO=100000041531

Date: 11-24-03


CHINA: "The Truth is Out There"

Half of the Chinese population believes in the existence of UFOs
according to the results of a survey made known by the Outer
Space Investigation Organization.

According to UFO expert Sun Shili, a professor at Wuhan
University, this high number of believers in the existence of
UFOs is closely linked to the growing popularity of "the
paranormal" among the Chinese.

China is the country boasting the largest number of UFO
enthusiast organizations in the world, adding to this the fact
that "UFO" magazine, published by the OSIO, sells more than
400,000 copies a month.

Up until the reform and openness process spearheaded by Deng
Xiaoping in the late '70s, the Chinese government and people
believed that UFOs were spyplanes sent from the USA, the scourge
of Communism.

Currently one out of every five UFO sightings takes place in
China, a country in which the official news agency is still
hesitant when it comes to publishing items of this kind,
considering them mere superstition. "Extraterrestrials are
becoming interested in China, as they were interested in the USA
during the 1950s," notes Sun, when explaining the large number
of sightings in recent years.

The most spectacular sighting occurred in 1998, when a Chinese
fighter played a game of cat-and-mouse with an alleged UFO for
over 30 minutes in the vicinity of the Changzhou military
facility (Xiangsu Province). The pilot, who described the object
as a flying saucer straight out of a Hollywood sci-fi flick, was
denied permission to open fire. The event was witnessed by over
100 onlookers.

=====================================================

Translation (C) 2003 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi



-- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice

Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com






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   Nov > Nov 25

                 Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - Lewis

From: Stephen MILES Lewis <ufoupdates@elfis.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:40:47 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:02:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - Lewis


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:27:33 +0000
>Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax"

>>From: Stephen Miles Lewis <ufoupdates@elfis.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:27:20 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax"

>>>Source: Global Village News and Resources

>>>http://www.gvnr.com/74/editorial.htm
>>>Issue 74 - November 17, 2003

>>>Pentagon Plans ET Hoax

>>>Qaeda to ET's - The Search For Bogeymen
>>>by
>>>Steven M. Greer MD
>>>Director, The Disclosure Project

>>"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los
>>Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This
>>is especially true if they were told that there were an outside
>>threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that
>>threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of
>>the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one
>>thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this
>>scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for
>>the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World
>>Government."

>>Henry Kissinger - 1991 Bilderberger conference, Evians, France.

<snip>

>When someone starts off by offering such an obviously phony
>quote, why should we pay any attention to the rest of it.


When someone starts off a reply by simply suggesting something
is an obvious phony without offering an explaination for why its
"obviously phony" why should I even reply?

Because, in my search for the truth I'd sincerely like to know
what is obviously phony about that quote.

Is it for real? How can I or Dick Hall know for certain whether
Mr. Kissinger ever said such a thing at the Bilderberg
conference? Especially considering most reports of the goings on
at the conference are obtained by outsiders wishing to pry open
the conference's self-imposed secrecy and the mainstream media's
choice of reporting very little on the events (though this is
slowly changing).

There are mainstream published reports of Kissinger being a
regular attendee.

I've spoken to someone who claims to have heard the original
audio recording of Kissinger making the statement. And I'm
trying to track down a copy.

Please Mr. Hall, if you have a definitive source for the quote
being a phony please obviate my ignorance. In the meantime, you
and other listers might take a moment to go back and read the
rest of my post and perhaps comment on the issues raised.

Not even Dick Hall can deny that the UFO phenom has been used
for disinformation purposes by the powers that be as I said at
the bottom of the post Dick was disinclined to read to the end.

"Finally, at the very least we know that the Air Force HAS used
the veil of ridicule associated with the UFO subject and the
tools of disinformation to keep hidden certain black budget
activities secret; examples would be the Air Force labeling
sightings of the then secret U2 spy plane as actual UFOs and the
infamous case of Paul Bennewitz being driven into madness at the
hands of AFOSI officers and ufologist Bill Moore."


Note - The correct date and locale of the alleged Kissinger
quote is Evian, France, May 21st, 1992. And was "transcribed
from a tape recording made by one of the Swiss delegates."


SMiles Lewis









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   Nov > Nov 25

                Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - Kimball

From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 02:28:07 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:25:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax" - Kimball


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:05:19 -0500
>Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax"

>>From: Joachim Koch <lists@kochkyborg.de>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 02:15:31 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax"

>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:40:51 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Greer: "Pentagon Plans ET Hoax"

John:

You wrote, in part:

<snip>

>These are some of the issues I have raised about Greer. Both
>now and in the past:

>1. The plagiarism by Greer of the work of other ufologists.

>2. His incompetent handling of the entire disclosure effort.
>i.e.; Failure to properly vet the witnesses _before_ going
>public with them. His introduction of several _unrelated_ issues
>at the eleventh hour - much to the chagrin of his own
>advisors/people.

>3. Public (un-substantiated) paranoid rants about massive
>conspiracy theories that place the very people needed to secure
>public hearings on the subject of UFOs in an adversarial
>position. Piss-poor tactics if you ask me!

>4. His ripping-off of the public by charging exorbitant amounts
>of money for people to wave flashlights around in cow pastures
>in order to vector-in UFOs.

>5. His ripping-off of a Scottish UFO videotape while on a visit
>there, forcing the Scots researchers to ask for help on this and
>other UFO related e-mail Lists.

Kudos to you, and right on the mark! A very clear and concise
summary of all there is to dislike and distrust (the two are
inextricably linked) about Dr. Greer.

<snip>

>>But there is one among us here on this list who is telling us
>>for years that a government (or power system) has the tools to
>>keep something secret if it wants to keep something secret. This
>>is our well respected colleague Stanton T. Friedman. Why do you
>>think has he to present papers and papers with blackened lines
>>on it on nearly every of his lectures?

>Stanton is not the subject of this thread.

I've known Stan for over twenty years now. I don't always agree
with him, but I have developed a great deal of respect for him
and his work. He is sincere, honest, and - while he has his
blind spots - a critical thinker, three qualities that Greer
seems to be lacking. Greer spins fantasy tales for the naive;
Stan debunks frauds like Corso and Lazar, or the Tim Cooper
documents (and remember, Stan was the first and perhaps most
vocal MJ-12 proponent) because he's examined their claims, found
them to be fraudulent, and knows they undermine the real work at
hand.

It galls me to see Stan lumped into the same category as Greer,
and therein lieth the real problem with the "good" doctor - he
taints serious, respectable ufology (yes, there is such a thing)
with his very presence in the field.

Yes, Virginia, there is a cover-up; Stan, among many others, has
demonstrated that in spades over the years. But it has nothing
to do with a bunch of religious zealots blowing up the WTC.

>John Velez
>Speaking strictly for myself

Not just yourself, John. Me too.


Best regards,

Paul Kimball








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                        Re: 1978 Italian Wave - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 02:06:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:01:36 -0500
Subject: Re: 1978 Italian Wave - Hatch


>From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:23:27 +0100
>Subject: Re: 1978 Italian Wave

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:47:25 +0000
>>Subject: Re: 1978 Italian Wave

>>>From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:11:58 +0100
>>>Subject: 1978 Italian Wave [was: A 1957 Wave Comparison]

>>>Quite an exceptional year, indeed, even though it seemed
>>>limited to our country, as far as we've been able to ascertain:
>>>there was no global wave in 1978, as opposed to (say) 1952, 1973
>>>or 1954.

>>Edoardo and List,

>>Referring to my book, The UFO Evidence, Vol. II (pp. 348-358),
>>you will find me stating that the 1978 wave was "perhaps the
>>largest worldwide wave of all time." It was, indeed, global.

>>I give many representative examples of cases in the U.S.,
>>Argentina, the Middle East, Australia and New Zealand.

>>Eddie Bullard also defines it as a "pandemic wave," both
>>geographically widespread and long-lasting.

>>It is true that more reports came out of Italy, but it was not
>>confined to Italy.

>>Since very few people apparently have read my book, a lot of my
>>research findings are not being taken into account.

>Hello Dick,

>First of all, let me assure you that I'm not only one of those
>"few people" who did read your most valuable book, "The UFO
>Evidence - Vol. II", but also one of those fewer readers who
>used it as a research tool, since I dulye and carefully looked
>through its pages for (and photocopied for our files) all and
>any reference to either Italian reports or "special interest
>items" (eg. angel hair reports) which are the subject of one
>among CISU many research/catalogue projects (please see
>www.ufodatanet.org/udncgi/wgindex_i.idc for a detailed and
>updated list, in English).

>Now to the specific point: as I wrote, the Italian Center for
>UFO Studies devoted its 13th annual congress to "The 1978 UFO
>wave, twenty years later" (Florence, 30 May 1998). My own paper
>was devoted to precisely the international scene, that year,
>with the aim of comparing the Italian wave with the rest of the
>world.

>From my own memory of that year (when I was already active
>as an international relations officer for the journal "Clypeus"
>and for the Italian Centro Ufologico Nazionale, CUN), I'd have
>said a truly global wave had occurred, indeed.

>But that sensation did evaporate as soon as I did my own
>homework in preparing some data tables for my paper.

>I had already scanned the available literature (we'd long been
>keeping an open file on that year, also as of the international
>scene) and I also asked several national UFO organizations for
>their numbers of reported UFO sightings in 1977, 1978 and 1979,
>so to have a proper perspective of relative trends.

>If you just have a look at the posters I presented at the congress
>(which are available on the webpage:

>http://www.cisu.org/1978wave.htm

>you will appreciate the following:

>- a most useful tool would have been an international catalogue,
>like UfoCat, but it was not updated as of 1978, in the version
>available at that time; (both your book and Larry Hatch's
>database are not general-sightings catalogues, but rather a
>selection of "best cases", whose dinamics may have a behaviour
>different from the raw reported sightings, as of numbers in
>time;) the only worldwide catalogue of 1978 sightings I was able
>to find is the one by Contact International (UK), but it was
>evidently unbalanced and incomplete (a few hundred cases in all,
>where Italy had less than 20 entr=ECes, out of the 1500+ we
>filed);

<snip>

>As of the conclusions, I will save List readers from the boring
>statistical tests results, but the tables and graphics are
>clear enough for all to see: with the exception of Italy (and
>possibly Mexico and the regional data from Ontario and Tasmania,
>but with differences totaling dozens of cases only, as opposed
>to the hundreds).

>I had to change my mind and my paper plainly told there was no
>evidence of a global 1978 UFO wave, based upon the available
>data. I repeat it, now.

>Of course, I am prepared to change that opinion, again, if
>anybody can show me new, different data.

>BTW, I'm still eager to get national numbers for any country I
>missed. Any volunteer to share data?

>Best regards

>Edoardo Russo
>Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici
>CISU, Casella postale 82, 10100 Torino
>tel 011.30.78.63 - fax 011.54.50.33
>http://www.cisu.org


Hello Edoardo and Richard:

I hope I don't bore you with some numbers from the *U* Database.
*U* is indeed selective.  The 'dynamic' is to filter out cases
of little apparent merit, those most likely mundane and/or
lacking vital details.  To do otherwise is to make this a social
study rather than a study of UFOs.

I most definitely treasure those issues of CISU Revista di Info.
Ufologica, as well as books like Hall's UFO Evidence (I and II)
since they find little space for those same useless reports.
 Sources like that save me from dredging thru mountains of
garbage.

I also value works like Maurizio Verga's ITACAT Close Encounters
catalog, the CISU Notizie and Newsletters. Those and many others
are listed here - long download .. this is 20 years work! - :

http://www.larryhatch.net/USOURCE.html

Now for some numbers:

Out of 18,122 cases listed in the *U* UFO Database (as of last
night when I added two..) The biggest years on record by counts
are:

Year Count  Major Locations

1954 - 1110 France and then Italy etc.
1952 - 1063 USA mostly.
1973 -  723 USA mostly.
1967 -  689 N.& S.America, Europe ...
1947 -  648 USA
1978 -  580 125 in Italy, rest scattered.


For ALL years, Italian cases seem to favor the last half of the
year. 66.4% of Italian cases listed here are from July to
December.

While the USA has 164 cases for 1978 versus 125 for Italy, one
should consider the sizes of the various countries.  The list
below is in order of highest counts per unit area. (* Areas are
in thousands of square miles)

Cont./Country   Count  Area*  Counts/area*

Italy            125  113.4  1.1021
Britain/Ireland   46  119.8  0.3839
France            44  210.4  0.2091
Spain/Portugal    30  227.9  0.1316
New Zealand       11  103.6  0.1062
USA              164 3535.0  0.0463
Australia         44 2937.8  0.0150
Mexico             6 741.6  0.0081 (lack of data)
Germany            2 135.1  0.0148 (lack of data)

All Europe   260  22800.0  0.0114 (includes W.Russia)
World        581 145000.0  0.0040 (includes islands)

Clearly, Italy takes a stunning lead in the concentration of
1978 cases over national area, with Britain and France trailing
badly, others pretty much out of the running.

If I had to lecture tomorrow, about UFOs in 1978, I would have
to say there was a highly localized flap of Italian sightings,
with a scattering of cases elsewhere.

Worldwide, 1978 sightings counts are fairly evenly spread over
the year. For Italy however, they peak strongly in December per
these data, even spilling into January 1979 a bit.

I would say that the Italian wave ran mostly from November of
1978 to January 1979. Hopefully that agrees with the data at
CISU, at least in general if not (obviously) in magnitude or
number.  *U* lists cases by event, not by report. There is only
one listing (not 2 or 10) for each event, no matter how many
witnesses.

If anyone has a working copy of UFOCAT, it would be good to run
off the same data to see if the proportion are at least similar.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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   Nov > Nov 26

                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:27:12 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:09:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:45:36 -0600
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:05:38 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>Really, John,

Don't you mean "Sigh, John."

>>>Where is your evidence that Barauna's "friend Amilar Vieira
>>>Filho" was willing to risk reputation and personal freedom to
>>>conspire with Barauna in an enormously risky hoax? Do you have a
>>>shred of it? I eagerly await your answer.

>>And where is your evidence that knowing about Barauna's hoax
>>would jeopardise Vieira's "reputation and personal freedom"? He
>>was a civilian, it is unlikely that even in the unlikely event
>>he was found out he would be clapped in irons, keelhauled, or
>>whatever the Brazilian Navy did to people.

>And on what, exactly, do base this strange proclamation? I am
>curious to see evidence that the Brazilian Navy doesn't mind
>being hoaxed, even by civilians who are its guests, and that it
>takes such things in good humor.  Examples?

Sorry, I didn't realise I was making a proclamation - something
which I imagine would be preceded by a fanfare of trumpets and
cries of "oyez, oyez, oyez" - I thought I was offering a
suggestion. In another posting, Kentaro Mori has pointed out
that the perpetrators of another hoax fooled the Brazilian
military, and did not come to any serious harm. They may not
take such things in good humour, but I doubt that there is very
much they could have done about it, especially as the military's
opinion on the matter seems to have been very divided.

>>Do you have the slightest information at all about Brazilian
>>naval regulations concerning the conduct of civillians on board
>>training ships?

>>I eagerly await your answer.

>To appreciate the delicious irony - hell, shameless double
>standard - of this question, one need only review the exchange
>between John and me and note all the many questions of mine he
>has refused to answer.  I'm still waiting.

The only person round here not answering questions is the Sage
of Canby. Most particularly the question "why, nearly five
decades after one of the most publicised UFO events ever (by
Jerry's reckoning), is there not one single direct statement
from any witness other than two of the photographer's friends
(vide infra)?

The answer to the question which he has asked me on numerous
occasions, and which I answered at the first time of asking, is
that the reason there are no statements from "negative
witnesses" (as Jerry is pleased to call them), is because no-one
witnessed anything, as the probability is that there was nothing
there for anyone to witness, and that any intelligent hoaxer
would make certain of this! I am sure most other readers of this
list will have understood this answer by now, but Jerry just
doesn't seem to get it. Sigh.

>I am just as well read in Brazilian naval regulations as you
>are, John.  The difference is that until you can provide
>evidence to the contrary, I assume that the Brazilian Navy takes
>its national-defense mission seriously and does not tolerate
>hoaxers who eat up its time and resources, then make it look
>foolish in front of the world (dragging Brazil's President and
>press into the bargain).  I also assume that Brazil's Navy is
>bright enough to uncover a hoax that is absurdly exposable, as
>easy as finding a negative witness or two or three or more.

Probably the Brazilian navy did and does take its national
defence seriously, however there is no evidence that it ever
considered the Trindade events to be a national security matter.
Indeed, as you will recall, one Brazilian Member of Parliament
complained about the lack of interest that was shown in
obtaining statements from members of the crew who might have
witnessed the events.

>Where, by the way, is actual evidence that Barauna's friends
>were also his accomplices? Do you have any?  If so, let's see
>it.

I'm glad to see that you now at least accept that the Viera and
Viegas were "friends" of Barauna, having upgraded them from
"aquaintances". Now it seems you want me to demonstrate that
they were "accomplices"!


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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   Nov > Nov 26

                    Article 'More UFO Sightings Reported'

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:43:26 -0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:13:58 -0500
Subject: Article 'More UFO Sightings Reported'


Source: Airdrie Echo - Alberta Canada

http://www.airdrieecho.com/story.php?id=81679

November 26, 2003

More UFO sightings Reported
Additional witnesses come forward after recent article

Paul Wells
Echo Editor
Airdrie Echo

A British Columbia-based UFO researcher says a story which
appeared in the Echo in September regarding sightings in the
Airdrie area has spurred others to come forward with their
experiences with strange lights in the sky.

Brian Vike, director of HBCC UFO Research and a regular
contributor to TV and radio shows as a UFO expert, said numerous
sightings of unidentified objects in the area over the past
months has ensured that Airdrie has entered the lexicon of the
UFO community.

"I do a weekly radio show (in B.C.) and I mentioned to the host
that I have received a number of reports from the (Airdrie) area
and we talked about the latest one, which came in on air," Vike
said.

"I have been doing many radio shows (in Canada and the U.S.) and
I always include information about the sightings in your area."

The original article contained a rundown of three of the most
recent sightings in the area which occurred from July through
September. That article can be found at www.airdrieecho.com
under the archive section.

Since that time, Vike has received reports of more sightings
which have occurred recently. These include:

o Aug. 18, 2003, 2:30 p.m. According to Vike, a man called HBCC
UFO Research s toll-free UFO hotline to report a strange sight
he witnessed while driving on Highway 2 from Calgary to Airdrie.

"He watched a small white light cross the highway in the
distance ahead of him and the ball of light turned in his
direction. The witness said he observed the light getting closer
and all of a sudden the object stopped still a ways away from
him and changed from a ball of light into a craft of some type.
He reported no sound being heard. I asked if he might be able to
determine the size of it and he said that when it was in the
distance, it could have been approximately the size of his
fingernail but when it headed in his direction and got very
close, in his words, It was huge. "

The witness said the object came to a complete stop and sat
stationary for a period of time before he lost sight of it.

o Sept. 15, 2003, 8:33 p.m. (The following is an e-mail report
received by Vike.) "I noticed an article in the Airdrie Echo the
other day and wondered if you had an explanation for something
my daughter and I saw Friday night (Sept. 26). We were looking
west of the Big Dipper and saw what looked like an exceptionally
bright star (brighter than anything I have seen before).

"We were trying to figure out if it was a planet or something,
and it just dimmed out to nothing in a matter of 10 seconds or
less. It didn t move at all, just dimmed to a faint point, then
we couldn t see it anymore.

o Oct. 27, 2003, 11 p.m. Vike said a man called him Nov. 3 to
make a report after reading the Echo article.

"He was talking to his neighbours and they asked him if he had
witnessed anything strange on Oct. 27 at around 11 p.m. He said
no and asked what it was these folks saw.

"The couple said they were outside of their home looking west
toward the mountains and witnessed five very bright flashes in
different parts of the sky. All the flashes that were witnessed
were very low in the horizon and at least 100 times brighter
than a regular flash one would see from a camera.

"Also, the flashes were very large in size. They also mentioned
the lights were at a great distance away from their location."

Having been a UFO researcher for many years, Vike said his
routine is to first attempt to offer such rational explanations
as weather patterns, satellites or meteors for such sightings.

"I do know that (UFO sightings) is sometimes a very strange
topic ... but I honestly do look for rational explanations for
such sightings," he said. "Most times, I can offer an
explanation of what the folks witnessed, but then I have many
cases which also go unsolved."

Vike can be contacted via e-mail at hbccufo@telus.net or toll-
free at 1-866-262-1989.







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   Nov > Nov 26

                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 21:10:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:16:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Rimmer


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:42:03 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:41:02 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>Do you know about other named witness? Have you seen their first
>>hand account? Let's have the information, then I'll tell you
>>whether I think it's reliable or not. I'm sure the entire crew
>>weren't friends of Barauna, so there must have been quite a few
>>independent witnesses available.

>Game to continue this game of ufological whack-a-mole,

Do you mean "guacamole"?

> sir,
>friends and acquaintances of Barauna would be socially networked
>and more efficaciously cooperative as legitimate witnesses to
>the history. Disinterested persons outside the immediate circle
>are likely fearful of associating with themselves with UFOs and
>opening themselves up, 50 years later, to the thin charges,
>insinuations, and intimations of you and Mr. Harney.

I'm impressed at the thought that retired Brazilian naval
personnel live in fear of John Harney and myself. Rather more to
the point - to coin a phrase - Mr Harney and I have only
interested ourselves in this case for the last year or so, they
have had over 45 years to come forward without fear of our
"insinuations and intimations".

>That most would gladly recuse and distance themselves from the
>affair is not a stretch - a result of the misplaced and
>unenlightened neo-schadenfreude of CSICOPians and Psychosocial
>Reactionaries. We're lucky to have the witnesses we have.

And they would be....?


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 26

                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:34:39 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:50:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Sparks


>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:17:54 -0300
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Mori

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 11:22:10 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

<snip>

>I would really appreciate if you could comment on the claims of
>inversion and mirroring of the image of the UFO. Two things in
>which both I and Sparks agree are:

>- The apparent size of the UFO from the first and second photo is
>  equal;
>- The apparent image of the UFO from the first to the second
>  photo is rotated around 180 degrees.

>Please comment on these and any other elements of the photos.

Oh please this is getting ridiculous. The Space Shuttle can fly
nose up or nose down at various points "rotated around 180
degrees." Does that make photos of the Space Shuttle a hoax?
 Does that mean the Space Shuttle is not a real physical object
but a double exposure or a montage??? The Space Shuttle usually
looks pretty much the "SAME" or even "IDENTICAL" from photo to
photo (your frivolous argument against Trindade in earlier
postings) -- does that prove the Space Shuttle is a fraud???

And I did not say the apparent size of the Trindade UFO is equal
in Photos 1 and 2, it clearly is NOT equal from Photos 2 to 3 to
6 (see my table below from my Nov. 18 posting). You still cannot
explain from your debunking theory of cookie-cutter "identical"
fake UFO images how the object is almost THREE TIMES SMALLER in
the last photo! The UFO was traveling at higher speed and
displays much greater motion blur in the first two photos (in
addition to rotational blur), thus making measurement of the
overall diameter at the extreme edges which are blurred the
most, more difficult than in other frames. That is why I
measured the DOME for measuring flattening, because it has a
sharper image to measure than the extreme edges which have the
greatest motion blur. But that small amount of uncertainty in
the early photos is irrelevant to the absolutely certain angular
size changes later in the sequence of photos, when the amount is
of size change is much larger than any possible uncertainty.

DIFFERING DIAMETERS/DISTANCES OF TRINDADE UFO
Photo 1 1.5 degrees (1.1 degs if 25 degs/sec motion blur is deducted)
Photo 2 1.5 degs    (1.3 degs if 12 degs/sec motion blur is deducted)
Photo 3 1.7 degs    (1.5 degs if 12 degs/sec motion blur is deducted)
Photo 6 0.6 deg
(all approximate)
(Note: Photos 4 and 5 missed the UFO)

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m18-020.shtml

Thus these are preliminary results and further measurement might
show a differing angular diameter in Photos 1 and 2. But even
though that is too close to call right now (the ratio of
relative sizes of the UFO image in Photos 1-2) it does not mean
other size measurements are similarly too close to call, as it
is absolutely certain that the angular sizes in Photos 2 to 3 to
6 are different and you keep evading this simple disproof of
your claim that the UFO images are shown to be fake by being
shown to be "IDENTICAL." They are not cookie-cutter copies of
the "SAME" image done 4 times and scattered across Trindade
island photo scenes. They are NOT identical. The UFO is FLATTER
by about 30% in Photo 3. You do not have an answer for that,
except by confusing photomontage with double-exposure hoaxing
methods.

My Nov. 6 post:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m07-010.shtml

Simple calculation like I did in my Nov. 6 posting on UFO
UpDates shows that this easily measured 30% flattening from
motion blur seen in the Trindade photos results from motion of a
real physical object moving across the sky at an angular
velocity of roughly 40 degrees per second (rounded off to one
significant digit, do you understand that concept of physics and
engineering?). No one ever thought of measuring the flattening,
or noticed and measured the motion blurring that caused the
flattening, until I did in July 2002. In fact, this seeming
change in shape and size was used by debunkers such as Menzel in
1963 to charge that the photos must be a HOAX!! Menzel simply
ignored the changing speed and motion blurring that elongated
the shape of the UFO, and turned it around into proof of fraud.

The flight path and timing of the UFO's motion across the sky
over Trindade also shows a variation of speed from a peak of
roughly 40 degrees/sec (rounded off to one significant digit).
So now two independent methods, one from amount of blurring seen
on the UFO in the photos, and the other from the flight path
across the sky, both agree in showing the UFO traveling at up to
40 degs/sec. Both methods were first applied to this case only
in 2002. How could a hoaxer have known that in 1958? Was Barauna
secretly a trained PHYSICIST??? Did Barauna foresee what





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   Nov > Nov 26

                      Re: Psychiatry & Ufology - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:43:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:53:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychiatry & Ufology - White


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:10:06 EST
>Subject: Re: Psychiatry & Ufology

<snip>

>For crying out loud, the sheer volume of data to look at makes
>me have to apologize to all those conspiracy theorists who'd
>rant on about mind control etc. I cannot believe that our
>government and private sector would engage in such sinister
>stuff.

Correction, Greg. We are not "theorists" - we have evidence,
theorists don't. What we have instead are facts that people just
don't want to be true, so they ridicule, ridicule, ridicule, and
deny, deny, deny.

I had a photo of a CIA agent who had been active in mind control
work, furnished by his daughter who is one of his victims,
posted on my site at her request. That photo was deleted, all
links to the photo were deleted, and my hard copy stolen from my
home. That's both on my PC and site.

Just today I discovered an x-ray of an apparent radio signal re-
 radiator type implant - piece of wire in a "W" shape in the
ankle of an MKULTRA survivor who is also being hit with all the
current-day psycho electronics - likewise deleted from my PC and
site.

I was fortunate enough to find an old copy on a dusty floppy and
put it back up. During the time I was transferring the files,
they were being deleted _in_real_time_ as I worked. As an
experienced computer programmer, I know how to copy files, and
this real time deletion is not "conspiracy theory", it really
happened. I can't explain why I was eventually able to get the
image posted. I do know that often we are decoyed by such
tactics and it may be that the deleted image really isn't that
big a deal with the perps. But in my 23 years as a target, I've
had literally _thousands_ of extremely anomalous computer
problems, some witnessed by other professionals. That is not
"theory".

Neither are the involuntary surgery scars on some of our
members.

We don't label abductees "conspiracy theorists" and we
appreciate not being falsely labelled as such.


Eleanor White







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   Nov > Nov 27

                     Aftergood - One Man Against Secrecy

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:07:42 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 06:50:59 -0500
Subject: Aftergood - One Man Against Secrecy


---------------------- Original Message ----------------------
Subject: [FOI-L] One Man Against Secrecy
From:    "Patrice McDermott" <pmcdermott@ALAWASH.ORG>
Date:    Wed, November 26, 2003 1:09 pm
To:      FOI-L@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
--------------------------------------------------------------

Source: The Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14488-2003Nov25.html

Wednesday, November 26, 2003
Page A23


One Man Against Secrecy
Newsletter Editor Works to Limit Classified Information

By Dana Priest
Washington Post Staff Writer

Around lunchtime on Sept. 26, a security officer at the Space
Vehicles Directorate on Kirtland Air Force Base shot an e-mail
to Steven Aftergood, who was sitting in his frayed tweed chair
at his computer, in his office on K Street.

"Questions/concerns have been voiced by our scientists and
engineers regarding material on your web," the officer informed
him. "Please advise on your collection methods and who provides
authorization to you allowing publication of what is presently
on your web site."

"Collection methods?" Aftergood chuckled, then responded:
"Authorization for publication of material on our web site is
contained in U.S. Constitution, Amendment 1.

"www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am1  If you have other
specific concerns, let me know."

Aftergood, director of the Federation of American Scientists'
Project on Government Secrecy, is an army of one, the David in
an era of Goliath-strength government stealth.

Armed with a pocket-size copy of the Constitution, the Freedom
of Information Act and an investigator's patience for source-
building, Aftergood is out to slay what he sees as the
arbitrariness of the U.S. system for classifying documents to
keep them secret.

To do that, he asks foundations and donors for $150,000 a year
("in a good year") to keep his online newsletter, Secrecy News
( www.fas.org/sgp/index.html ), and staff of one - himself -
going. He often scoops the national media with anecdotes about
government attempts to keep information secret.

In fact, the government's classification chief, J. William
Leonard, has bookmarked Aftergood's Web site because it is
usually easier to find critical national security documents
there than on government Web sites. As director of the
Information Security Oversight Office, Leonard has one goal for
enhancing his office's Web offerings: "I want my information to
be posted on my Web site before it's posted on Steve's. It's a
matrix we have yet to meet."

"Steve is part of what we regard as the public interest groups,"
Leonard said. "He's at the top of the list in terms of being the
most thoughtful and most comprehensive."

In a newsletter dated Oct. 28, Aftergood reported that the
Congressional Research Service, Congress's research arm, had
taken down its online reports. In typical Aftergood style, he
retrieved numerous CRS reports from his archives and posted them
on his Web site, along with another organization's database of
most of the CRS reports ever published.

In the same issue, he revealed the Army had pulled its Center
for Army Lessons Learned ( www.call.army.mil ) Web page after
The Washington Post reported on an unusually blunt critique
posted there about the inadequacies of U.S. military
intelligence on Iraq. The Web site returned, Aftergood noted
later, minus the report in question.

Another newsletter item hounded the Defense Science Board,
traditionally packed with industry CEOs and policy elites, for
removing the names of its members from its Web site. A DSB
spokesman told Aftergood the names had been removed for security
reasons following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, but was
unable to articulate how deleting names of corporate leaders who
advise the government would increase security against terrorism.

Aftergood persuaded the spokesman to send him a list of members,
and he put it online.

"What's important is not access to one particular document or
another," he said. "What's important is the deliberative process
and the health of American democracy when you impede access.
Mundane information is the oxygen that permits public
participation in political life."

Besides providing these daily morsels, Aftergood has been after
the U.S. intelligence community since 1997 to publish its annual
aggregate intelligence budget. He won the first release in 50
years when CIA Director George J. Tenet released the 1997 annual
budget, which was $26.6 billion. Aftergood has two pending
lawsuits on the matter.

CIA officials warn that releasing other annual figures would
allow foreign intelligence services to piece together a pattern.
Also, they say, the CIA would soon find itself compelled to
release the underlying components of the budget.

"No other intelligence agency in the world has released as much
information as we have," said CIA spokesman Bill Harlow said.
"Look at our Web site. There's volumes of material there."

The CIA's position on the budget release, Aftergood says,
illustrates his larger point: "The intelligence budget total is
a proxy for secrecy policy in general. It's an indictment of how
far classification policy has become decoupled from real
security threats."

A joint congressional inquiry into the events of Sept. 11, 2001,
agreed that the declassification system is broken and
recommended that federal agencies report to Congress "on
proposals for a new and more realistic approach" to classifying
information, including ideas "to protect against the use of the
classification process as a shield to protect agency self-
interest."

Included in that disclosure process, Aftergood says, should be
the White House, which has refused to release relevant copies of
the President's Daily Brief to Congress and independent
investigators seeking to learn what U.S. intelligence officials
told President Bush about the threat from Osama bin Laden's al
Qaeda network before Sept. 11, 2001, and, separately, about
Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

"It's taken for granted that it's sacrosanct," Aftergood said.
"The White House should identify the sensitive information and
sources" and remove those. But "the idea that the whole thing
should be secret is pure mystification."

Aftergood said he recognizes the need for secrecy in some
situations, and has been willing to practice what he preaches.
Earlier this month, he received an angry e-mail from a Sheppard
Air Force Base official concerning his posting of a Joint Staff
manual on computer security: "Did you know that you have posted
FOUO [For Official Use Only] information on the public web site?
It clearly states this is a limited document NOT FOR PUBLIC
RELEASE."

"Thank you for your message," Aftergood wrote back. "As a non-
governmental organization, we are not subject to DoD regulations
concerning "official use only" information. However, pending
review, we have decided to remove this document from our
website."

"I'm not dogmatic about any of this," he said. "I don't look at
this as a game. I don't look at the government as the enemy. I'm
interested in a rational information policy that respects the
American public."

c. 2003 The Washington Post Company







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   Nov > Nov 28

                         Trindade Material - Part I

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 07:54:34 -0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:49:42 -0500
Subject: Trindade Material - Part I


Gentle Listers:

As promised earlier, I am posting engineer Claudeir Covo's
article about the Trindade Island case - below. It was kindly,
professionally, translated by the Translation Co-ordinator of the
Brazilian UFO Magazine, Marcos Malvezzi Leal, and his sister,
Martha Malvezzi Leal.

Claudeir Covo is a leading Brazilian UFO researcher who has
degrees in 3 areas of engineering. He as been the most active
UFO image analyser in Brazil for nearly 20 years. One of his
areas of expertise was vehicular illumination, as he worked for
some automobile companies in Brazil.

Other articles will be posted here soon.


A. J. Gevaerd

-----

The Trindade Island Incident, January 16, 1958

Claudeir Covo


In 1954, after proving that the photographs of an alleged UFO
sighted on Barra da Tijuca, taken by Ed Keffel and Joao Martins,
were a product of double-exposure, professional photographer
Almiro Barauna, from Rio de Janeiro, made several photographic
tricks to reproduce the effect. The results of his tests and a
text by Vinicius Lima were published in Mundo Ilustrado
magazine, under the title Um Disco Voador Esteve na Minha Casa,
or A Flying Saucer Was in My House. Back in those days, the
episode was widely discussed in Rio de Janeiro's media. Although
he had no way of knowing it, fours year later, Barauna would be
personally involved in a unique opportunity to photograph a real
flying saucer. But in view of the fact he had virtually given a
lesson on how to fake photographs of that kind, he received
nothing but criticism and skepticism from the same media.

It was the beginning of the International Geophysical Year of
1958, and on January 16, upon an invitation by the Brazilian
Navy, Almiro Barauna joined the crew of training ship Almirante
Saldanha on its way to explore Trindade Island, on the coast of
Espirito Santo, a state in the Southeast of Brazil.

The ship was docked, preparing for its return to the continent,
when something most unusual happened. Barauna, 43 at the time,
had taken several snapshots of the landscape shortly before and
was lying on the deck of the ship, feeling un-well, with a
strong headache and seasickness. All of a sudden, around 12:15
p.m., he sensed a big commotion aboard. The sailors were calling
out to him to look at something luminous in the sky. Captain
Viegas, an Air Force officer aboard the Almirante Saldanha,
approached Barauna and asked him to photograph that mysterious
flying object. Barauna promptly picked up his Rolleiflex camera
and took six shots. He missed two of them, i.e., the fourth and
fifth due to the object's high speed and the commotion on deck.

The Saturn-shaped object captured on film had emerged from the
sea, flown over the island and the tip of Galo's Crest, then
above Desejado mount, when it finally vanished behind a
mountain. But soon it was visible again on the other side, as it
flew back towards the sea, stopped for a while and shot up at an
incredible speed, as though it were a rocket. The object was
absolutely silent.

The whole episode lasted no more than 14 seconds, but 48
eyewitnesses saw everything and were flabbergasted. Among the
witnesses were sailors, sergeants and officers. The civilians
aboard the ship were an employee of Banco do Brasil (Brazil's
Bank), attorney Amilar Vieira Filho; Mauro Andrade, employee of
the Bank of London; Jose Teobaldo Viegas, retired captain of the
Brazilian Air Force, an industrialist and the director of
Carioca Air Club at that time; a gentleman known only by his
first name, Aloisio; and another man known by his first name,
Fernando, a professor of geology. They were all members of the
Icarai's Divers' Club, in the city of Niteroi (RJ).

After the object had disappeared, other people began to feel
unwell, just like Barauna had before. He felt his heart beat
faster; he was trembling and had a feeling of emptiness, and
broke out in a cold sweat. An hour later, somewhat recovered
from the shock, he was asked by the commander if he had been
able to take a photograph of the object. Barauna said he had. It
was then decided to set up a dark room in the ship's makeshift
laboratory. The film was developed on the spot. All the 48
witnesses confirmed that the images seen in the four negatives
were exactly like the object they had sighted over the island.

When the UFO flew over the Almirante Saldanha, the whole
electrical system went haywire, the lights were dim and the
radio was dead. When the ship sailed, the commander wanted to
talk to Barauna, in private, and said he could keep the
photographs. He added that before publicizing them, though, he
(Barauna) would have to report to the Navy authorities. When the
ship reached Vitoria (ES), it had to remain in the docks for two
days and Barauna, who could not stay, took a bus to Niteroi. In
Niteroi, he went to a lab and had his photographs enlarged,
using the negatives that had already been developed.

Four days later, a Navy commander requested he present himself
at the Armada's Secret Service headquarters, in Rio de Janeiro.
The commander drove Barauna there and the photographer was
questioned by a group of officers about photographic tricks, air
photos and several other things. He remained at the headquarters
from 8 a.m until 4 p.m. because the officers wanted to be sure
of the photographs authenticity. They borrowed the negatives
from Barauna and took them to the aero photographic laboratory
that belonged to a company called Cruzeiro do Sul. Afterwards,
the negatives were sent to Kodak, in Rochester, USA, for further
analysis. The negatives were tested with the use of electronic
equipment and chemical processes - no evidence of fraud was
found. So, under the authorization of the Juscelino Kubitschek
(President of Brazil at that time), Barauna's photos were
disclosed to the admiralty, after a month, on an Ash Wednesday.
All the radio stations were announcing that the newspaper
Correio da Manha would publish a world photographic scoop in its
next edition.

But Barauna contacted Joao Martins who convinced him to take the
issue to the editorial staff of O Cruzeiro magazine, so that the
magazine would release the news concerning the photographs. In
journalistic terms, Correio da Manha was "scooped" by O
Cruzeiro. Forty copies were then made from the original photos
and distributed to all the newspapers in Rio de Janeiro. Most of
them printed the photos, published the testimonies, analysis,
data, articles, etc, in several issues. Some days later Barauna
found out that the newspaper Correio da Manha had obtained the
photos directly from the Navy - those copies that Barauna
himself had provided and that were stamped with the expression
"reserved".

The official report from the Fleet-Admiral, Antonio Maria de
Carvalho, chief of High Naval Command, known as Documento
Confidencial # 0098/M-20 (Confidential Document # 0098/M-20),
describes the following details concerning the photos taken on
Trindade Island:

"Finally, another UFO alert was registered at 12:15 pm,, on
January 16, 1958. This time, it occurred aboard Almirante
Saldanha, docked on the open sea at Trindade. The ship was ready
to set off and the "pinaca" [small open boat] used for the
crossing to the land, was being brought in by the crew when the
alarm rang, from stem to stern".

The document goes on to say that a civilian professional
photographer, who was aboard shooting the retrieval of the
"pinaca", had its attention turned to the flying saucer, from
which he obtained the four photos.

"After the sighting, photographer Almiro Barauna removed the
film from the camera in the presence of the corvette captain
Carlos Alberto Bacelar and other officers (.) and the film was
developed within ten minutes".

In his report Admiral Carvalho also stated that Bacelar himself
examined the negatives afterwards. He confirmed that they were
still wet when delivered to him for examination. "He recognized
the UFO on the negatives", emphasizes the official document.
"Afterwards, the negatives were shown to the crew members, eye
witnesses of the incident. They confirmed that the images on the
negatives were identical to the object they had seen in the
sky." The legitimacy of the photos was made official. So, under
the authorization of the Navy Ministry, the testimony given by
Captain Bacelar, was released to be published in the press.

He tells us that, in fact, a UFO was sighted from the deck of
Almirante Saldanha. "I did not witness such appearance
personally because at that exact moment I was in my cabin.
However, I was called to the bridge immediately". Even then,
Bacelar confirmed the fact that Barauna was on deck, with his
camera, and that, after the incident, fell into a state of
nervous exhaustion. "I stood by his side all the time, because I
wanted to be present at the film development."

With a battery-operated flashlight, Viegas followed closely as
the film was developed in the small makeshift laboratory, while
Bacelar, outside, waited until the process was finished. Both
concluded that the negative showed, with accuracy, the sequence
of the UFO flight over the island.

As previously agreed, Bacelar went to Barauna in Rio and, twice,
accompanied him to the Navy Ministry. "I called the
photographer's attention to the fact that the publication of the
photos without official authorization was strictly forbidden and
I informed him that he would be told as soon as the competent
authorities decided do release the photos for publication."

Amidst the turmoil, on February 24, 1958, Minister Alves Camara
commented, during an interview with the United Press agency,
that the Brazilian Navy was involved in an important secret that
could not be discussed in public since there was still no
explanation for flying saucers. "But the photographic proof
presented by Almiro Barauna convinced me that they exist", he
claimed.

On that same day, corvette Captain Moreira da Silva declared
that he did not favor any discussion as to the character of the
photographer who had taken the UFO pictures, for the object had
also been sighted by a number of known and respected people.

"I can assure you that the photos are authentic and that the
film was developed immediately aboard Almirante Saldanha. I also
confirm that the negatives were examined by several officials
immediately after being developed. So, any possibility of a
photographic trick is dismissed."

Based on the analysis of the negatives and the details reported
by the witnesses, experts were able to calculate the speed of
the UFO as 1200km/h. But such speed increased considerably when
the object accelerated. The size of the object was estimated to
be 40 meters in diameter and 7 meters high.

All things considered, we can say that we are facing an
absolutely genuine incident, completely different from the
incident on Barra da Tijuca, discussed in another article in
this issue.

The position of the Brazilian authorities is surprising. "Our
attitude facing the UFOs does not matter, because the fact that
there was a phenomenon documented in photographs and confirmed by
the written testimony of 48 witnesses remains", declared captain
Moreira da Silva, in an official tone.

The Navy Ministry, through the Naval Operations Command,
elaborated in a secret, detailed report on the Trindade Island
incident. At that time, congressman Sergio Magalhaes wished to
have some information about the document but it was not
released.

A curious fact was that the report was only brought to public
attention in October 1971, in an article written by Jorge C.
Pineda, published in an Argentinean magazine. The article
presents mail exchange between the officers Luiz Felipe da Luz
and Antonio Maria de Carvalho, where they once again confirmed
the incident. The article also includes a request for
information about the issue, signed by M. Sunderland, US Naval
Attache in Brazil at the time.

Oddly enough, after all that was declared by the Brazilian
authorities, concerning the incident, the secret report
inexplicably reduces its importance. Its conclusions, endorsed
by Corvette Captain Jose Geraldo Brandao, of the Naval
Intelligence Service, state that there are different witnesses
and they all confirm the same thing. But the document states
that "most of the information presented is insufficient;
especially in view of the lack of technical competence by most
of the observers and the short duration of the phenomenon
observed; so the fact that they sighted flying objects is
inconclusive." The report still declares that the most valuable
and important proof presented - the photograph - somehow loses
its convincing quality owing to the impossibility of completely
disregarding a previous photo trick.

Still today, UFO researchers wonder what made the Brazilian
officers disregard the issue so suddenly. The adoption of a
dubious position is certainly contradictory. Although the report
affirms the importance of the fact, it disqualifies some of its
details. And it suggests a careful tendency toward the
acceptance of the facts, when it says that "finally, the
existence of personal reports and the photographic evidence of
some value, considering the circumstances involved, allows us to
admit the fact that there is evidence of UFOs." The final
conclusion in the report is, in fact, a suggestion made by
its author, that the authorities of the Navy High Command begin
to consider all the information obtained about the UFO
phenomenon, "in order to reach beyond-any-doubt conclusions."








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   Nov > Nov 28

              Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 14:25:11 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 12:34:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Roberts


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 01:17:41 -0000
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

Pilgrims,

Joe M wrote, in response to Roy Hale's witterings:

>I appreciate that you are probably now very busy creating a
>voluminous catalogue of narcotically generated "facts" presented
>by Andy Roberts (which I percieve as a very worthwhile and
>instructive activity, and very good use of your time),

At least if people are going to continue flogging this
particular dead horse can I just point out there is a world of
difference between 'narcotics' (which I have never indulged in)
and psychedelics. It's not a difference of semantics either,
it's a difference of chemical composition, perceived effect and
usage in culture.

C'mon guys, we can't have ufologists getting their facts wrong
can we?


Happy Trails

Andy
currently doing some damn fine adrenaline








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                Re: Appearances On Top News Magazine Shows? -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:06:54 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 14:44:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Appearances On Top News Magazine Shows? -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 00:53:54 EST
>Subject: Re: Appearances On Top News Magazine Shows?

>>From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 17:44:25 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Appearances On Top News Magazine Shows?

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 02:20:56 EST
>>>Subject: Appearances On Top News Magazine Shows?

>>>Does anyone know of any top UFO researchers or experiencers,
>>>ever appearing on any of the top news magazine shows?

>>>If not, it's long over-due and an explanation equally over-due.

>>>I'm not talking MSNBC I'm talking the _big_ shows. Even Barbara
>>>Walters.

>>In the United Kingdom I've been interviewed on BBC2's Newsnight
>>and BBC Radio 4's Today show. These are generally regarded as
>>the top TV and radio news shows in this country.

>We Yankees are unfamiliar with the shows you've mentioned but
>one thing I can say about Nick Pope is that you're quite popular
>over here!

I know he was tickled shirtless when compared - by an
_exceptionally_ attractive and intelligent late model red-head -
 with Fox Mulder... I can't expect him to remember - me or the
red head - but I got a few moments alone with him and rather
tersely got in his knickers about it. I got the impression he
rather resented me kicking the shin of his good time, but we
parted with me feeling that I had served the ufological masses
(and him) well... I was respectful and polite if perhaps a tad
too intense. I take seriousness seriously. <g>

This occured at a Gulf Breeze conference in the late ninties...
Mr. Pope, if you're reading. I was the guy with the beard
wearing a tie. <LOL>

>We have a small army of Britons here in Hollywood. Aussies and
>New Zealanders too and when I asked them if they knew of Nick
>Pope they carried on in detail! They have a high regard for you
>and they consider you quite the hero!

Really - he has seemed to function in his capacity for a
considerable length of time, walked the wobbly stones of the
fringe with no serious missteps, and helped serve to keep a
ufological potentiality alive. And you Mr. Boone, you seem with
every turn of the page to have achieved a level of
communicational connectivity that only becomes increasingly
astonishing on many disparate levels... and as a result of the
most unusual professional pursuits. Wow!

>Now the contrast is our Ufologists don't get that admiration or
>ackknowledgement from our citizens. Even though it's clear as
>day what they've achieved.

Well - they're outside an accepted mainstream, they're boat
rockers, but that's forgetting that it _is_ mindblowing given
the proof of their _very_ solid ufological achievements.
Disclosure, I suspect, knocks "they who would not be knocked"
from the cultural cat-bird's seat. This unelected and stealthyly
manipulating leadership provides petro-dollars to the mainstram
respected CSICOPian cultural hurdle-makers who, in turn, defuse
and provide for the aggregate disrespect (afflicting our
Ufologists) you've exposed here. Our failure as a society to
read to the ufological period, as a result, is a cultural
embarrasment for which we can (and should) feel shame, wounding
humiliation, and as a species, self disgust.

>It would be of interest to study how the U.K. citizens react to
>Ufology and what I've gathered, so far, they take it as a
>'matter of fact' issue and unfortunately blame the U.S. and the
>CIA for the quagmire coverup.

Unfortunately? Seems to me it's pretty well deserved, especially
after doing some more balanced reading from Dolan through
Parenti, to Webb. Seriously, after honorably rolling around in
the mud and the blood and the beer for this nation and swearing
an oath as a regular Army officer to uphold the good conscience
spirit of a pretty special document, I feel justified in calling
a spade a spade in this issue. Lies, convenient and capricious
need to know, professional assignation, and reflex obfuscation
are NOT in the good conscience spirit of that pretty special
document. A quagmire exists, and a CIA (from FBI to M&Ms)
operates in, facilitates and maintains it, I think.

>Seems as though people everywhere already accept the
>controversial issues brought up in ufology _except_ the U.S.
>Probably because it's popular to say the U.S. is covering things
>up, but not popular to come forward and validate the research of
>ufologists.

The decreasingly trusting masses can hardly be faulted for
performing as they have been manipulated to perform.....

>Which brings me to a cognition I had back in '98 when I did
>something simple when we had a debate about how religion and
>ufology would conflict. I just got on the phone and called
>realtives and friends in the old countries in Europe, Africa,
>Eurasia where the scriptures are closer to their original
>context, without the missinterpretations. Far as these folks
>were concerned they were wondering why it was such a bother to
>believe that humanity was interracting with extraterrestrials.
>Far as they were concerned it was a 'so what?' issue. One of my
>friends a Rabbi said that only the American interpretations of
>religions caused this conflict. Same came from folks in Fiji to
>Armenia to Ethiopia.

We have an _exceptionally_ rabid breed of Christianity alive,
well, and cultivated in this country. It is anti-individual,
anti-art&science, and anti-intellectual. It resents furiously
that it should be removed from the crown of creation, the list
of God's chosen, and the center of the universe. Ironic that the
further we remove ourselves from that imagined center the more
god-like _we_ become. Uh-oh! ...should'a said that in verse!
...too much heresy for prose.

>I guess something got lost in the translation.

Yeah! From the Sumerians! The folks, on site, who, religiously,
had everything about 245 degrees from the way _we_ have them,
now, in the 21st century, and by the way, go a long way towards
invalidating same!

>Being predominantly Native American myself, when I asked my kin
>about the ET issue - again I was presented with a 'So what? Like
>you need a college education to figure this out?'

Ironically (and by poll) it seems to help, considering how many
people think professional wrestling is real, while believing we
never went to the moon... and predominantly native American?
Dude! You're an -unending- surprise... I wish to hell my
connection hadn't tanked so I could have heard your segment on
SDI... it's like you've sprung fully formed, late in August,
from the head of Zeus! Verily! You suggest an _incredible_
Network and such _eclectic_ experience... it's a little like
Howard Bloom has settled among us... overpowering, almost. I
hope you're for real.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Nov > Nov 28

                      Trindade Not Double-Exposure Hoax

From: Brad Sparks
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 15:42:30 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 16:41:59 -0500
Subject: Trindade Not Double-Exposure Hoax


>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:43:02 -0300
>Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update - Mori

>>From: Brad Sparks
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:13:21 EST
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Scientific Update

<snip>

>>The latest computer trick "simulating" a double-exposure
>>Trindade hoax uses computer equipment that did not exist in 1958
>>and thus was not available to hoaxers in 1958 - and does NOT in
>>fact add light to light in a simple linear 2 + 2 = 4 way.
>>Instead it has used a modern software program to superimpose a
>>partial layer with the fake UFO in frame B to the background
>>scene in frame A in a very complex way using a sophisticated
>>processing algorithm built into the software.

>Take a look at this then:

http://www.geocities.com/airsmither/trindde.htm

Your hoaxing method to get a darker fake "UFO" onto a bright sky
simply ADDS WHITE light to the rest of the picture, which in
real film photography (instead of artificial manipulated 2003
computer technology) would DESTROY all the BLACK and DARKEST
areas. Did you stop to think of that? Or did you get so
preoccupied with the cleverness of your manipulation of the
brightness curves on your computer to get black or dark areas on
your "simulation" that you forgot that it does not work the same
way in film photography?

You would have to add at least 0.5 light level to get this
effect, which would destroy the blackest areas of the photos.
 Yet the Trindade photos show NO SIGN of this ADDED LIGHT in the
darkest of dark areas, which go down to 0 (which should not
exist at all with your double exposure adding 0.5 !) and at each
tiny density step .0, .1, .2, .3, .4, .5, .6, .7, .8, .9, 1.0,
1.1, etc., there are many tens of thousands of 14-micron pixels
with not one single step missing any, no gaps, each step having
nearly 1% of the area of Photo 3 to take an example.

About 6% to 7% of the entire Photo 3 can be found in each
interval from darkest to lightest, 0-1, to 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and
then the bright overcast sky dominates the remaining area of the
photo. In fact the lighting represented in the Trindade photos
is rather evenly distributed across the entire 0-6 range, quite
inexplicable and impossible if a double exposure has added light
and the photo manipulated with photographic techniques to try to
offset the resulting light imbalance. The photos should be
completely washed out at the darkest and brightest levels with
your double exposure and any photo manipulation, but clearly are
not. Where then is your double-exposure's ADDED LIGHT from your
white background around the fake "UFO"???

As you admit on your website, "But when measuring the grayscale
from another source, I did confirm Brad Sparks' measurements.
The darkest parts of the island hav a value of 0."

So where is the _light_added_ by the supposed Trindade hoaxer's
double exposure??? You admit the darkest parts of the island are
at 0, so where is the extra light??? How can there possibly be
any completely black areas???

Your computer hoax technique of course is not actually a double
exposure. I don't think you understand what a double exposure
is. A double exposure as the name implies is the taking of two
exposures in a camera onto the same piece of film, two clicks of
the shutter without advancing the film is one way to do it.
Typically a UFO hoax might have a "saucer" model photographed
against a BLACK NOT WHITE backdrop in a studio. Then the hoaxer
would go outdoors someplace and take a double-exposure second
set of shots on the same roll of film containing the "UFO"
exposures, but now adding new exposures with innocuous outdoor
sky scenes superimposed on the "UFO" exposures. The result would
show the "saucer" up in the sky if the photographer positioned
the shots correctly. It is not the same thing as overlaying two
sheets of already developed film, which is actually a type of
photomontage, which you mistakenly seem to think is a "double
exposure."

Even though you have the advantage of sophisticated 2003
computer technology not available to alleged hoaxers in 1958,
your simulated "UFO" still looks obviously fake while the real
UFO looks quite genuine, but we need not rely on subjective
impressions here because we have physics and quantitative data
to rely upon, and these prove that a double exposure in the
Trindade photos is a physical impossibility because of the
fundamental principle of photography that Light Adds to Light
and cannot subtract light from an image.

But I am glad you admit that a simulation must be done on FILM
and that this hoax scenario you concocted is "just SPECULATION
and SUGGESTION,"as you say now on your new webpage dated Nov. 19
(my capitals added):

"But this is all a digital simulation. We MUST, and hopefully
will try to reproduce things in FILM. And, it must always be
emphasized, this is just SPECULATION and SUGGESTION."

As I said in my previous Nov. 21 posting you evidently concede
that your 2003 computer simulation does not come close to
accurately simulating a 1958 photographic film hoax by double
exposure, that it does not fit the Trindade photometry, and that
the computer software distorts light values in a highly complex
way that is unlike photographic film.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m21-048.shtml


Brad Sparks







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                      Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:59:17 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 09:58:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Boone


I've always wondered about this SETI project.

Searching for radio signals?

What if aliens don't have ears? :)


Best,

Greg









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                          HBCC UFO Reports 11-28-03

From: Brian Vike <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:49:37 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 10:15:45 -0500
Subject: HBCC UFO Reports 11-28-03


Howdy List

This is the first of a bunch of reports I have been receiving.
From Quebec, Ontario, Alberta, Kansas City, California and here
in British Columbia. A few older ones, but good ones. Also have
other reports coming in from the Airdrie, Alberta area as well,
which I am writing up tonight. Then a possible missing time
event outside of Airdrie, Alberta. Last but not least another
major case, two people traveling along highway #3 just outside
of Creston, B.C. have lost many, many, many miles along their
journey. Also just before they lost track of everything, a
number of fast moving blue lights were seen traveling in their
direction. The lights blinked out, and basically so did they. So
large report coming on this as well.

Below is the first of a few to post.

Take care


St. Laurence Gulf, New Brunswick

Date August 1998
Time: 11:45 p.m.

Today, November 29, 2003 I received a telephone call from a
gentleman who wanted to make a report on a sighting he had back
on August 1998 at 11:45 p.m. He went on to explain what it was
he and a friend witnessed. The two witnesses were visiting a
close friend who lived just south of Bathurst, New Brunswick.
The couple, eventually were sitting at the waters edge on the
St. Laurence Gulf when they saw a brilliant blue light moving
slowly across the sky. He tried to give me an example of what
the blue light looked like, and said if you were to hold up a
gem stone, blue in color and shone a extremely bright light
through it, this is how this object's color would appear to look
like. Even at one time he thought what they were looking at was
the after burner of a jet aircraft. But soon ruled this out due
to the upcoming maneuvers this thing would make.

The witnesses could not see any physical shape to the object,
just this intense blue light. he reports that no sound was heard
coming from the strange light in the sky. They said they
observed the object for approx: 1 minute which would seem to
rule out a meteor. He repeated that the object was rather high
up, and close to some very high cloud. The color of the light
bathed the clouds in a blue light. When they first spotted it,
it was traveling in a straight line across the sky, then it came
to a complete stop and hovered. It started to move again from a
dead stop rather quickly and then made a quick turn. Not a sharp
turn, but more on a curve and then shot up into the sky and
disappeared. When they first observed the object it came from
the south traveling to the north. The witness said he even
called the Halifax airport to file a report, plus to ask if
anyone else had reported the strange object they had just saw.
The control tower folks thought the witness was on something,
and they left it pretty much as is. The fellow felt what ever it
was they saw had to have been very large in size. Also he noted
he wasn't aware of anything that could travel that fast. It was
so weird that the experience frightened his friend and she ran
to the car.

Thank you to the witnesses for the report.

Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm








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   Nov > Nov 29

                    Airdrie, Alberta - September 15, 2003

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:12:41 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 10:17:50 -0500
Subject: Airdrie, Alberta - September 15, 2003



Airdrie, Alberta

Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 11:20 p.m.

Witnesses email below: I also called the witness in Airdrie,
Alberta to gather more information on this sighting. My report
after talking to her is below also.

Hi there,

A week before the first article came out in the Airdrie Echo
newspaper about sightings, I came home from work about 11:20 pm,
and I let the dogs out side and I was also watching a few
northern lights off my deck , I live on the east side of
Airdrie, the (deleted by HBCC UFO) are right behind my house. So
we have a hill behind my place with a walk way on that goes
towards the highway, and I looked over to my left toward the
west, and I know what I saw, and it was big circle of lights
twirling around and hovering on the walk way and then it just
went down, not up. I grabbed my dogs and headed into the house.
The next week, I read the article in the paper.

HBCC UFO Report after talking with the witness.

The first thing the witness said was, "I know what I saw" and it
was really bizarre. The lady let the dogs out onto the deck of
her home and then followed them out, stood there and looked to
her left and just above a walk way she spotted the lights
hovering. The walk way runs a good distance and eventually runs
across the highway. The witness said it could not have been
children twirling lights as for one thing the circle of lights
was very large in size, plus she could not see anyone in the
area. She also compared the size to a 10 or 12 foot old C-Band
satellite dish. She explained that it looked to her as if it was
a ring shaped object with a lot of white lights running all
around the outside of it. She also said it appeared that there
was not just one set of lights, but layers of them. As she stood
and watched this strange display of lights, they started to move
down over the hill which would have crossed over Highway #2
until she finally lost sight of the lights. She mentioned that
it was approx: a half block away from her location and very
bright. Also the lights were moving quickly, but there was no
distortion, or the lights appearing to be one long string. She
was able to view the individual lights and she told me there was
many of them. No sound was heard and the dogs did not react in
anyway to the strange lights. The witness said she wasn't
frightened at what she saw, but her senses told her it was time
to head back into her home. It was visible for approx: 30
seconds before it vanished. I asked if she was able to see
anything in the center of the object, she said no, just a ring
of lights.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/hbcc_ufo_research.htm







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   Nov > Nov 29

                     Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 09:22:19 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 11:00:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:21:29 +0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:17:28 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:27:12 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>>Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:45:36 -0600
>>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?


Patient and gentle Listfolk:

>>As our young, smart friend

>What a classic Clarkian piece of condescension. (But surely it
>should be "young, smart associate"?)

Mr. Mori is young (21, I'm told) and obviously intelligent, and
he has been invariably courteous and respectful in his exchanges
with me. Consequently, I have a positive view of him as a human
being and colleague. I might also add that nonpelicanists tend
to agree that when you've turned 57, you have the right to
identify as "young" individuals who are three and a half decades
less advanced in years than yourself.

I guess you'd have to be a pelicanist to understand how this
amounts to a put-down of Mr. Mori. Frankly, pelicanist logic and
rhetoric being subjects of diminishing to nonexistent interest
to me, so I won't bother to try to figure out what Rimmer means.
Good luck to any nonpelicanist who is sufficiently bored to want
to take up the question.

>>Can anybody explain to me the peculiar obsession of
>>British pelicanists with my place of residence? Does
>>anybody else's hometown come up so often (or ever) in
>>List discourse? In the context it's always offered, I infer
>>that it's supposed to be some kind of insult, but I'll be
>>damned if I can figure out what it is. Perhaps you could
>>enlighten me and all of us, John. I am genuinely curious.

>This started when Jerry made some comment about my "curious
>address" ('John Dee Cottage', for those of you who don't know,
>named after John Dee, the Sage of Mortlake, philosopher,
>astrologer, mathematician, magician, navigator and secret agent
>for Queen Elizabeth the First, to list some of his
>accomplishments) on the site of whose house my humble dwelling
>is situated.

Oh, my. Those of you who know who John Dee was will appreciate
my one-time gentle, good-humored joke, and that's all it was.
 In fact, it was picking up on a joke Rimmer made himself when
he moved into the place.

Nonetheless, apparently having nothing more interesting or
relevant to do with his time, Rimmer pretended to be offended,
and I've never mentioned it since. Not once.

Meantime, the digs at my residence have continued unabated, and
Gen. E.R.S. Canby (Civil and Indian wars figure and possesser,
according to Rimmer, of a "boring" last name), after whom my
hometown is named, has -- unlike John Dee - no occult or Fortean
resonance whatever.

But enough. These words in closing:

After everything we've been subjected to on this List of late, I
am impressed at how not a single telling blow has been struck
against the authenticity of the Trindade case. That means one of
two things:

The sighting and photos are as strong as we'd always been led to
believe, and thus compelling evidence of UFOs as structured
craft of unknown origin.

Either that, or the pelicanists are using the wrong arguments
and failing to grasp the true nature of the hoax, if hoax it is.
I am certain that if this is a hoax (which I doubt it is, but
still, anything is possible), the Brazilian Navy had to have
been an accomplice. No direct evidence supports that
proposition, but it is the only one that seems to explain what a
respectable and persuasive hoax hypothesis - in other words,
one based on something other than the belief that since UFOs
don't exist, any harebrained hoax scheme one can conjure up will
do - has to account for.

Meantime, we've been bored into a coma with lots and lots of
speculative scenarios divorced from any demonstrable empirical
foundation, and that's it. We have learned less about the
Trindade photo incident, I'm afraid, than about the needs of
pelicanists, and that is not exactly the most crucial or
compelling thing we must know.

I believe the discussion is best continued in the technical
exchange between Mori and Brad Sparks, where we may actually
learn something both new and worth knowing about what was seen
and photographed that memorable January 16, 1958.


Jerry Clark







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   Nov > Nov 29

                      Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 09:38:05 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 11:01:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Groff


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:59:17 EST
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Subject: Re: Seti@Home Effective?

>I've always wondered about this SETI project.

>Searching for radio signals?

>What if aliens don't have ears? :)


This could be true of some species but I wouldn't think that it
would be true of all species. Heck, 'they' could have ears the
size of elephants.  :)


Terry









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                 Re: Scientific Study Seeks Abductees - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:45:50 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 12:13:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientific Study Seeks Abductees - Pope



List,

Psychologists at Goldsmiths College, University of London, are
looking for abductees to take part in a scientific study into
the alien abduction phenomenon.

The project will be the most comprehensive scientific study into
the phenomenon ever carried out in the United Kingdom, and is to
be the subject of a feature in the next issue of UFO Magazine.

UK-based abductees wishing to take part in this study are
requested to email apru@gold.ac.uk or contact Rachel Fox or
Julia Santomauro, 020 7919 7171 (ext 4389), for further
information.

Witness confidentiality is guaranteed, and abductees are free to
use pseudonyms if they wish.

Further details of the study can be found at the following link:

http://www.goldsmiths.ac.uk/press-releases/pressrelease.php?releaseID=238


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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               Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Burns

From: Max Burns <max.burns@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:58:39 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 12:36:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Burns



>From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:35:05 -0000
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

>>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 16:15:49 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 01:17:41 -0000
>>>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine


Roy, Can I inform you that everyone has the right to make
remarks unless they are posting to ufology in the UK which has
operated censorship. See Below.

>Are you suggesting that I am not
>allowed to respond to remarks made by you generally?

Even when Mr Roberts position is made clear.

When in fact we have permission to discuss these matters
from Andy Roberts himself:

>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:57:55 -0000
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

>Pilgrims,

>Whilst I have no issues whatsoever with Max and his muppets
>discussing my beliefs on drugs or my convictions.

Thanks Roy, for trying to point out hypocritical behaviour.

Censored post below.

------

>From: nfbgaz@yahoo.co.uk
>To: ufologyinuk-owner@smartgroups.com

>Hi,

>Having re-read previous postings by Roberts and Clarke on Max
>Burns' excellent piece in the new issue of the above magazine, a
>number of conclusions can be put :

>1. Andy Roberts is in serious breach of copywright as he does
>not have permission to distribute Burns' article either from Max
>himself or from the editors and publishers of the magazine.
>Therefore, be very wary of his attempts to distribute something
>that is not his. The legal basis for him doing so is very dodgy
>indeed.

>2. This is a tactic meant to deprive the magazine of much needed
>finance - clever but hopefully unsuccsesful. Order your copy of
>Number 5 by sending a cheque for only =A33.50 to Dept P, Notes
>from the Borderland, BM4769, London WC1N 3XX. Cheques made
>payable to "Larry O'Hara". Not only will you get the Burns
>article that is causing so much debate on ufology in uk/Ufo
>Updates and elsewhere but you will then have a 64page magazxine
>that also has excellent exposes of MI5 head Eliza Manningham-
>Buller, a dissection of Peter Taylor's True Spies BBC2
>documentary series, articles on Donal Macintyre, Shayler, the
>Copeland bombings and many other subjects. We are always keen as
>well to receive your views and opinions on Roberts/Clarke and on
>dirty tricks/disinformation within Ufology. Our other ufological
>title At War With The UNiverse is available at =A35.00.

>3. Roberts has admitted to being a drug supplier on Ufo Updates
>after we itemised his criminality in the magazine. This did not
>stop him and Clarke from trying to smear Max Burns for "drug
>offences" at the time of the Sheffield Incident controversy and
>afterwards. Double standards if we ever saw them!

>4. Be wary of Roberts ridiculous attempts to divert attention
>from himself and this story. Let's keep the pressure on this
>failed hippy and Armchair Urologist and ensure that Max gets the
>hearing he deserves. We offer special rates to UFO groups who
>would like bulk copies. Contact us at

>info@borderland.co.uk

>Thanks and best wishes,

>Ya Basta - which means (by the way Andy) Enough is Enough!


Date: 16 Nov 2003 21:02:31 -0000
From: ufologyinuk-owner@smartgroups.com
To: nfbgaz@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Returned post for ufologyinuk@smartgroups.com

Hi! This is the ufologyinuk@smartgroups.com mailing list.

I'm working for my owner, who can be reached at
ufologyinuk-owner@smartgroups.com

I'm sorry, your message (enclosed) was not accepted by the
moderator.

If the moderator has made any comments, they are shown below.

-----

You may like to familiarise yourself with the following extract
from the Rehabilitation of offenders act 2001, Chapter 6:

"3. Spent convictions : offence to publish or broadcast.

(1) Subject to the following provisions of this section and to
any order under section 10(1), any person who -

(a) publishes, or causes or permits to be published; or (b)
broadcasts, or causes or permits to be broadcast, any matter
imputing that a rehabilitated person has committed or been
charged with or prosecuted for or convicted of or sentenced for
an offence which was the subject of a spent conviction shall be
guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction
to a fine not exceeding =A32,500.

(2) In proceedings against a person for an offence under
subsection (1) it shall be a defence for him to satisfy the
court that -

(a) the publication or broadcast took place before the
conviction in question became spent; or (b) the rehabilitated
person, or a person whom he reasonably believed to be the
rehabilitated person, had given his express consent to the
publication or broadcast; or (c) the publication or broadcast
was ordered by a court in the Island; or (d) the person took all
reasonable steps and exercised all due diligence to avoid
committing the offence; or (e) the publication or broadcast took
place not less than 30 years after the death of the
rehabilitated person."

This has very obvious implications for Max, Larry O'Hara, and
anyone else that persists in dragging up 27-year-old
convictions.

-----










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                      Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 11:09:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 13:10:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Kaeser


>From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 09:38:05 -0600
>Subject: Re: Seti@Home Effective?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:59:17 EST
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Subject: Re: Seti@Home Effective?

>>I've always wondered about this SETI project.

>>Searching for radio signals?

>>What if aliens don't have ears? :)

>This could be true of some species but I wouldn't think that it
>would be true of all species. Heck, 'they' could have ears the
>size of elephants.  :)

I think the real issue is whether or not they utilize
electromagnetic energy that would be detectable this far from
their home (or location).

To be quite honest, seti@home has been criticized as a potential
security hole and most security experts advise against any type
of program that connects to an outside source and downloads data
automatically.


Steve










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                   University Searching For Alien Answers

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 14:32:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 14:32:50 -0500
Subject: University Searching For Alien Answers




Source: The Times - New Jersey

http://www.nj.com/news/times/index.ssf?/base/news-1/1070100353150420.xml

University searching for alien answers

Saturday, November 29, 2003

By ELIZABETH LANDAU

PRINCETON BOROUGH - Since the first humans gazed at the stars
and wondered who might inhabit the twinkling orbs, the topic of
extraterrestrial life has been one of the most fundamental and
fascinating enigmas of all science.

Are we alone in the universe? Is someone, or something, watching
us? How can we ever know?

Scientists and students at Princeton University are searching
for answers.

With world-renowned theorists, state-of-the-art extraterrestrial
signal detectors and university courses discussing "life out
there," Princeton has become a hub for alien hunters.

At the Institute for Advanced Study, Freeman Dyson ponders
effective ways to search for extraterrestrial life. A retired
Institute professor and physicist famous for his work in quantum
electrodynamics, Dyson believes space explorers should take a
hint from game hunters and use a tactic called "pit-lamping" to
detect alien life forms.

Pit-lamping involves shining a carefully shielded bright light,
such as a flashlight, into the darkness to find animals. The
light reflects off the retinas of any creature in the vicinity,
making its eyes appear to shine bright red to anyone who stands
behind the flashlight.

On a planet or moon many millions of miles farther from the sun
than the planet Earth is, only a minuscule amount of heat will
reach any creatures that might live there.

The only way for those creatures to keep warm would be to have
built-in lenses or mirrors to concentrate heat from the distant
sunlight, Dyson said.

Some creatures near the Earth's poles use similar reserves
because they only see a few months of sunlight each year, he
said.

The arctic poppy, for example, has petals that form a parabolic
dish and that reflect the sun's heat into the center of the
flower, where the seeds grow. But most life on Earth, enjoying
sunshine year-round, does not need optical concentrators for
warmth because of our planet's proximity to the sun.-- -- --

Pit-lamping could be used as a cost-effective tactic for
searching for life in very cold places, Dyson said.

"The point is that you're flying around Europa, taking pictures
of the surface, so you point the camera away from the sun and
get reflections from anything alive," he said. "The sunlight
reflected in the creature reflects in the camera."

Europa, a moon of Jupiter about 480 million miles from the sun,
is a current theoretical hot spot for extraterrestrial life.
Scientists are especially interested in the possibilities of
life on Europa because it may have an ocean of water beneath its
surface.

"The difficult thing about living on Europa is that there's no
air," Dyson said. "They've got to be able to live in a vacuum."

Though many moons and planets lack atmospheres, Dyson said life
could have adapted to living without one. Some extraterrestrial
creatures may even have developed ways of making oxygen under
their skin, he said.

Those creatures don't necessarily have to live on moons or
planets either, Dyson said. Considering the relative scarcity of
planets, they may not be the best places to look, he said.

"Most of the universe doesn't have planets," he said. "Rocks,
comets and asteroids should also be examined."-- -- --

Just down the road from Dyson's office, a group of stargazers at
Princeton University searches for light from extraterrestrials
in a project called OSETI, the Optical Search for
Extraterrestrial Intelligence.

Dyson himself is part of the Friends of the OSETI Group and is
said to drop by Princeton's Fitz-Randolph Observatory, home of
OSETI, on occasion.

While OSETI searches for visible light pulses from nearby stars,
other SETI projects at other observatories scour the skies for
radio signals, much as depicted in Carl Sagan's novel and movie
"Contact."

Dyson said radio waves are more likely to be found because of
the sensitivity of radio detectors but that OSETI operates very
well and should continue its search.

"Everything we found in astronomy was really very unlikely," he
said. "It was considered unlikely that there would be liquid on
Jupiter, so one should always look."

Founded in 2001, Princeton's OSETI project is entirely run by
volunteers with an interest in astronomy, many of whom live and
work near the university.

Though the project has not yet confirmed any extraterrestrial
signals - which would be on the order of a nanosecond long - its
coordinators believe the probability will increase as more
volunteers join their efforts.

Princeton's OSETI project operates in conjunction with Harvard
University. Observers at Harvard send the coordinates of the
celestial object they are targeting at the moment to the
operators at the Fitz-Randolph Observatory, who then point the
OSETI box at precisely the same coordinates in the sky.

Collaborating with Harvard observers reduces the amount of error
associated with the instruments.

Undesirable sources of light such as street lamps and airplanes
can interfere with searching for extraterrestrial light signals,
but if both observatories detected the same signal within a
millisecond, the signal probably came from the target object.

"It's rare that anything like that happens," said OSETI
volunteer Alexander Willman. "But (the data) is scientifically
valuable information, even if we don't see ET."-- -- --

Princeton University and an anonymous $10,000 donation from an
alumnus in 2000 helped refurbish the observatory and get OSETI
started.

Princeton students also can indulge in alien research by taking
courses in the astrophysical sciences department, even if they
do not have a background in physics.

Students lugging around an "astrobiology" textbook this semester
are taking a new general-interest course called AST 205: The
Search for Planets, which discusses the probability of finding
extraterrestrial life. Alien life forms also will be a hot topic
in the popular spring course AST 203: The Universe, an
introduction to cosmology for anyone with an inkling to learn
about the subject.

So why are we so enamored with searching for extraterrestrial
life?

"I feel that searching for, and possibly one day contacting,
extraterrestrial life is one of the most worthwhile things that
we can do as a species," said Princeton student Maggie Kirkland,
a volunteer for OSETI.

"Not only would it tell us more about the universe in which we
live, but it could help us to understand the role that we play
in the fantastic story of the cosmos that surrounds us."

To volunteer with OSETI, e-mail oseti@princeton.edu. No
experience or scientific background required.







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   Nov > Nov 30

                             Psychedelics Ahoy!

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 17:00:26 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 09:04:19 -0500
Subject: Psychedelics Ahoy!


Pilgrims,

Vis a vis Roy Hale's, Max Burns, etc., wittering posts about
substances they don't understand, may I refer them, and anyone
else who is interested to the following link:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1095822,00.html

All legal, no need to rip people off and lie about your guilt
afterwards.

As the man says:

'What a long strange trip its been'!


Happy Trails

Andy








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                   Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

From: Max Burns <max.burns@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 17:20:02 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 09:21:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:39:02 -0000
>Subject: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

>>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 14:25:11 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 01:17:41 -0000
>>>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

<snip>

>Andy

>Far from being the reprobate that no doubt the majority of the
>list presume you to be, I regard your attitude to drugs as
>reactionary, conservative and pretty well on par with the
>Establishment. It's a limp-wristed view.

<snip>

>But you sir - admittedly in a quote in Max's article so I guess
>you may refute it - are quoted as saying, "I don't condone
>dealing because people get ripped-off. Simple as that."

>Yep, it is pretty simple. Pray tell, how are people supposed to
>get their drugs? Your attitude (as stated) mirrors current UK
>legislation regarding marijuanna. You're very unlikely now in
>the UK to go to prison for smoking a joint. You'd be unlucky to
>get a fixed penalty notice (on the spot fine). You're more
>likely to get a caution. But dealing? Oh dear. Off to the
>slammer straight away. Bad, bad person.

>And c'mom Andy, you must have bought from a dealer many times
>over the years.

>This common attitude that "as long as it's for your personal use
>then well, it's almost OK and legal but dealing is horrendous"
>is pathetic and paradoxical - stand up for what you really
>believe.

Stuart, Roy EBK and Listers,

Perhaps I should clarify some points and tie some of the NFB
threads together. Apart from the fact that Mr Roberts has failed
to reply to the post by Mr Conway - see below:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m23-020.shtml

>>*   We sent him on a merry dance round Derbyshire's Peak
>>District as part of a controlled experiment (hoax, for the
>>dullards among you) - which he is now desparately claiming he
>>knew about all along, yeah, right!

>Andy,

>If this was an experiment then you will have a single or a of
>set of hypotheses, one or more control groups, independent
>confirmation of results, independant analysis of the results to
>prevent statistical tuning and data coersion, detailed
>evaluation of experimental method and a sound set of conclusions
>which either support or don't support your hypotheses. Without
>at least some or all of these this "experiment" is of little
>value to anybody.

>Don't misappropriate terms of science clearly beyond your
>comprehension to describe your and David Clarke's juvenile,
>irrelevant pranks.

>Richard Conway

Once again the silence is deafening. Well said Mr Conway. Is
there anything else you would like to say about your latest post
and the comments?

One Lister here has been trying to stifle debate on this by
trying to use the rehabilitation of offenders act as to why we
cannot and should not discuss these issues. The Lister involved
refused a post on his own List on those grounds, when in fact we
have permission to discuss these matters from Andy Roberts
himself.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m14-014.shtml

>Pilgrims,

>Whilst I have no issues whatsoever with Max and his muppets
>discussing my beliefs on drugs or my convictions.

So I believe that the position that we should not discuss these
matters on-List, with regard to the rehabilitation of offenders
act, is a moot point.

In another post to the List Mr Roberts stated.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m28-009.shtml

<snip>

Roy Hale does not witter by the way, he has in-fact asked an
important question of Dr. Clarke - whether or not he was aware of
Andy Roberts past and current usage of drugs at the time he was
attacking me? Fair question. Well, Dr. Clarke, do you know about
your friends past and current history with drugs?

For a man who has posted a book's worth of stuff to the List the
silence is deafening.

Andy wrote:

>C'mon guys, we can't have ufologists getting their facts wrong
>can we?

"Facts wrong"? That's an interesting premise. Let's check another
recent post by Mr Roberts to the List. Listers should be
aware that Andy had read the article three times before his talk
for Bufora. No doubt he has read it a few more times since then.

At no point have Roberts, or Clarke for that matter, posted to
the List that any of the facts of the article are wrong. Its
hard to argue against the facts - obviously the reason for the
silence. It is hard to decide whether Andy is telling the truth
sometimes, as it has been proved that he is a liar on many
occasions, concerning my investigation of the Sheffield Incident
and my private life.

Lets have another look at some facts.

Andy wrote in reply to Nick Pope

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m13-002.shtml

"Pilgrims,

Yes, I'm a convicted drug dealer. If you want specifics it was
approximately September 1976 and the substance was Amphetamine
Sulphate (a crap drug I have to say, but I bought some and sold
it on). That was 27 years ago, before many on this List were
even born. I'm not ashamed or embarrased by it, nor has it ever
been a secret. I have always, and will always, continue to use
psychedelics.

Now, what of it?"

Best if we compare this statement to the news paper articles.

TWENTY-FOUR IN COURT:

Drug offences case 'Tip Of The Iceberg' Police. "A Cleckheaton
man asked for, and got, a suspended prison sentence when he was
one of 24 people facing a combined total of 55 drug offences at
an all day special court in Dewsbury on Friday".

[Also] "dealt with [was] Andrew Jonathan Roberts aged 20 of
Hightown View. Hightowri, Liversidge" He and a co-defendant
'both pleaded guilty Roberts admitted being in possession of
amphetamine sulphate. unlawfully supplying amphetamine sulphate
and being in possession of cannabis resin. The article goes on
"The prosecution said Roberts had said

'It is in everyone s interest for you to come down here and sort
it out'. In a statement Roberts said he had started about tour
years ago (aged 16). He and Walker had gone to a public house in
Bradford where they had bought some from someone called Dave. He
normally smoked in the fields near where he lived. He said that
they had bought some 'speed ( amphetamine ) in Bradford and
taken it to a cottage at Roberttown. 1 won't waste my money on
'speed again' he had said. Roberts said he was a single man with
no previous convictions, and a good home background. He had
experimented with the drug. Both his clients were released on
bail'

This all led to a three months prison sentence suspended for two
years and fines totalling =A3100 for Roberts [33]. How did this
case come to court you might ask, what slip up did ultra-cool
air-guitarist Andy Roberts make? The truth is prosaic. and
disturbing.

"Mr JS Robertson, prosecuting told the court, Roberts had walked
into the police station of his own accord saying that it was in
everyone's interest'. Roberts mitigation, Mr Simon Alexander
commented that it was not his clients habit to use amphetamine
and that when he had tried it, had been revolted by it" [34].

Roberts has stated his 1976 drug conviction is common knowledge.
as too continued use of drugs since then [35].

Roberts told police officers that he usually went to the pub
with Lindsey Howard Walker of Brighouse ( who also appeared
before the court in a separate hearing ), and bought the grass
from either a youth called Dave or another, said Mr Robertson.

"GIVEN AWAY"

 On one occasion it was alleged that Roberts and Walker had
purchased some amphetamine sulphate- It was further alleged this
was later given to man called Chris Bland of Hightown. When
asked by the police Roberts had admitted that they had all tried
it..

At Court Roberts claimed that he had given away the amphetamine.
As you have read earlier Roberts has stated to this list that he
had in fact sold it on.

---

Just keeping the facts straight Listers.

Having said that, these are the facts of Andy's current and
previous position. My article covers many different things to do
with the modus operandi of Clarke and Roberts.

Not just whether Mr Roberts is off his rocker on drugs or not.

The eight different strategies used are.

Stage 1. Suppression at source/ Getting a false story accepted

Stage 2. Undermining/Lying about witnesses.

Stage 3. Attacking UFO research directly.

Stage 4. Attacking the UFO researcher directly.

Stage 5. Suppressing the message.

Stage 6. Intimidating & isolating those who might listen to the
         message.

Stage 7. Hoaxing to orders

Satge 8. Hypocritically attacking the independance of others.


Indeed lets not have Stage 5 come into play - suppressing the
message - by being diverted to only focus on Mr Roberts extra
non-prescription activities. That section of the article is only
a small portion of the staggering amount of data I have
collected concerning this whole affair.

The magazine is selling well despite Mr Roberts attempt to
stop sales through his alledged breach of copyright.

After all, Roberts has said that he is breaching my copyright
and that of the publishers through scanning and photocopying.

We do not even know if he is sending out the full article, for
example. Is Roberts sending out the footnotes page from the
article?

If anyone has recieved the article from Roberts I ask that you
email it or contact me direct so that I may obtain this evidence.

Copyright theft is a terrible thing for a published author to be
involved in. What if I was to up the ante and to inform the
Listers that in his own words Roberts is also a hands-on thief -
see below:

Private post Andy Roberts to Max Burns 27/10/03

Hi Max

<snip>

Don't know what Dave thinks of his copy yet (which I stole from
the stall, 'cos I'm buggered if I was paying for something
written about us!)


Best wishes

Max Burns

www.borderland.co.uk








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               Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine Delays -

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:48:11 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 09:24:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine Delays -


>From: Cody Pomeray <gripiron@yahoo.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:47:27 +0000 (GMT)
>Subject: Notes From The Borderland Magazine Delays

Pilgrims,

Cody Pomeray (made up name if ever there was one!) wrote:

>Some people who have recently ordered Notes from the Borderland
>may experience slight delays - this is because orders are
>diverted to the editorial team via a London BM box number, and
>the Post Office informs us that there is still a bit of a
>backlog for London post due to the recent postal strike. BBC
>news said it might take up to 6 weeks to clear the backlog, when
>the strike was over.

Yes, most amusing. The reason Larry O'Haha hides behind a London
BM number is because he published unresearched untruths about
members of the public and doesn't want to face the repercussions
of doing so. If he or his muppets were in any way genuine they
wouldn't hide in this way.

>The few who have ordered through Andy Roberts - who offered to
>scan the Burns article free of charge without our permission - a
>copywright breach we are investigating at this moment -

Yeah, yeah Cody.

>will
>miss out on the other articles in the magazine, ranging from a
>CV of the current MI5 head to updates on Donal Macintyre and
>David Shayler, etc.

All of it tripe I'm afraid. Donald Macintyre is a good
investigative journalist who has done many good documentaries
exposing fraudsters on TV over here.

The 'portrait' painted of him in Nuts From The Borderland bears
no relation to what has appeared on TV. O'Hardly and his team
specialise in this sort of reality distortion whereby existing
facts are used in a join the dots fashion to create conspiracy
where none exists.


Happy Trails

Andy








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                      Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 12:54:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:16:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Groff


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 11:09:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: Seti@Home Effective?

>>From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 09:38:05 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Seti@Home Effective?

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:59:17 EST
>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>Subject: Re: Seti@Home Effective?

>>>I've always wondered about this SETI project.

>>>Searching for radio signals?

>>>What if aliens don't have ears? :)

>>This could be true of some species but I wouldn't think that it
>>would be true of all species. Heck, 'they' could have ears the
>>size of elephants.  :)

>I think the real issue is whether or not they utilize
>electromagnetic energy that would be detectable this far from
>their home (or location).

>To be quite honest, seti@home has been criticized as a potential
>security hole and most security experts advise against any type
>of program that connects to an outside source and downloads data
>automatically.


Yes, true, but in 4 and a half years I've never had a problem
with it. Nor have I heard of anyone else having a problem.
Like we always say, it's your choice. Do it or don't.

Sometimes the search for an answer takes risks.

Terry









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                      HBCC UFO New URL & Major Changes

From: Brian Vike HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:57:37 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:22:21 -0500
Subject: HBCC UFO New URL & Major Changes



Howdy List

I figured I better give you a new URL for my website, big
changes have "just" been made to it. New look everything.

So the URL for my website now reads http://www3.telus.net/public/wilbur8/index.h
tml

Thank you

Brian

HBCC UFO Research






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               Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Conway

From: Richard Conway <ranger_conway@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 05:08:29 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:29:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine - Conway


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:52:32 -0000
>Subject: Re: Notes From The Borderland Magazine

<snip>

>- Max claimed in front of witnesses that he bribed/gave a
>witness some drugs to get him to tell his story

Tut, tut Andy, still peddling the same falsehoods. Is this on
the same ocassion that Matthew Williams and I were allegedly
present? Can you provide some witnesses independent of your
influence who can vouch for this? This either never occurred or
you clearly hallucinated the fact that either one of us was
present.

Both are a possibility, obviously since you are prone to hmmm...
frequent hallucinations this may be the obvious answer.

>- That aliens were responsible for the disease M.E. (which is
>rather an insult to those unfortunates who do suffer from this
>debilitating disease).

More misunderstanding on your part Andy. Suggesting that there
is a statistical correlation which provides a significance level
(p-value) through regression testing between alleged abductions
and ME is something that can be posited and verified. This is
all Max's research has shown. There may be issues with the
sample or groups of samples but this would be a different issue.
Since I now understand how you mistakenly conduct your
"experiments" I see where you get your confusion from.


Regards,

Richard C








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                     PRG/X-Conference Update - 01-12-03

From: Stephen G. Bassett <Disclosure2003@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:51:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:26:39 -0500
Subject: PRG/X-Conference Update - 01-12-03


PRG
Paradigm Research Group
Update - December 1, 2003

The X-Conference
www.x-conference.com

PRG is pleased to announce the addition of Dr. Robert Wood, Ryan
Wood and Peter Robbins to the speaker platform. There is now a
full contingent of 22 presenters with the Key Note speaker and
additional panel discussion participants to be selected early in
2004.

There are many fine researchers and activists with the
appropriate focus who would have been invited, if there were
more hours in the day. And, of course, had the X-Conference been
focused on phenomenology, many other researchers would have been
candidates. Fortunately, these researchers are presenting at
other established conferences such as the Bay Area UFO Expo,
IUFO Winter Conference, MUFON National Symposium and many more.
For a complete list of upcoming conferences go to:
www.paradigmclock.com/conferences.html

A score of researchers offered to speak or were referred by
supporters. These offers and referrals are greatly appreciated
and will be remembered for the 2nd Annual Exopolitics Expo.


John Lear's Appearance on Art Bell

After a long hiatus, aviator and researcher, John Lear, appeared
on Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on November 12, 2003. He
presented Art a hypothetical scenario which has been circulated
extensively on the Internet. Lear asked Art to pretend the U.S.
Government had selected Art Bell to make the disclosure decision
after being fully briefed on the facts surrounding the
extraterrestrial presence. If these are the facts, do you
authorize disclosure to the people =E2=80=93 yay or nay? After hearing
the proposed facts, Art answered "no" and John agreed.

As it happens, John Lear had presented the same scenario to
Stephen Bassett the night before he appeared with Art. Bassett's
response was "yes," and he was written an article explaining
why.

See article (top of the list) at:

www.paradigmclock.com/paradigmarticlesindex.html

See Lear Briefing Scenario at:

www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2003/11/02.html#lear


Sci Fi Channel's "Kecksburg UFO: New Evidence"

This new documentary aired on November 21, 2003 and was
excellent. The Kecksburg case is particularly powerful because
it is 18 years younger than Roswell and many more witnesses are
still alive. The Sci Fi Channel is putting significant resources
into a new investigation building upon the fine work of Stan
Gordon. This Sci Fi special put considerable emphasis on the
legal efforts of the Coalition for Freedom of Information and
clearly placed Leslie Kean in the forefront of the Sci Fi/CFI
initiative as an emerging and important figure in the truth
process. Since Leslie is an investigative journalist with
mainstream experience, she will help make it easier for other
journalists to step through the ridicule curtain and perhaps
earn some Pulitzers.

The most important aspect of this documentary was the continued
prominence of John Podesta, who was shown both within and
outside the context of the October 21, 2003 Sci Fi/CFI NPC press
conference. This continues to send a message to Washington
insiders, who are in the know but on the fence regarding the
extraterrestrial issue, that something is going down and they
should consider taking a position. Podesta's ability to
withstand criticism for his involvement was considerably
enhanced when he recently received millions of dollar from
George Soros to create a new liberal think tank, the Center for
American Progress. One of Soros' key issues is open government.

As expected, major political and financial players are beginning
to position themselves as the disclosure event nears.

See: www.scifi.com and www.freedomofinfo.org

____________________________________________________

Paradigm Research Group
E-mail: ParadigmRG@aol.com
URL: www.paradigmclock.com
Cell: 202-431-2459
4938 Hampden Lane, #161
Bethesda, MD 20814
_____________________________________________________

1st Annual Exopolitics Expo - The X-Conference
Hilton Washington DC North/Gaithersburg - April 16-18, 2004
www.x-conference.com
_____________________________________________________

"There is almost no limit to what you can accomplish,
if you are willing to give away the credit."
_____________________________________________________

"Intellectual passion is found at the intersection
of fact and implication."








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   Nov > Nov 30

                     Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:50:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 13:31:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Clark


>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:52:18 -0300
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 09:41:22 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 05:08:00 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?


Hi,

I want to end my involvement in this thread, so I am not going
to respond to your specific arguments.  Not because they're
unanswerable, but because I simply can no longer devote any more
time to Trindade, when I have my own unrelated, hugely time-
 consuming, and (I trust) more useful, productive project --
 which I think all, proponents, debunkers, and the simply
curious, will appreciate when it's finished and published -- to
attend to.  There is only one issue on which I will comment:

>>Not, I hasten to add, that you are another Phil Klass bristling
>>with those kinds of irrational excesses. But in this instance at
>>least, you are showing a distressing tendency to advance
>>arguments which look discrediting at first glance but on the
>>second prove to be rather less than meets the eye.

>I don't know. I do have great respect for Klass.

Though I honestly appreciate your forthrightness here, I am very
sorry to hear it, and sad to say, it immediately makes me view
what you're up to with doubt and suspicion. As we say out here
in Midwestern America, we've already been to that rodeo.

Having had long experience with Klass, both observing him and
interacting with him (we exchanged hundreds of letters over the
years), I came to same conclusion that virtually every American
ufologist -- starting with James McDonald, the victim of one of
Klass's most notorious vilification campaigns -- is forced to:
that he was an obsessed crank who contributed little to the UFO
debate except noise, strange rhetoric, pseudoscientific
speculation, and character assassination.

Long ago, in its February 1981 issue, Fate ran an extended
article I wrote documenting Klass's deceptive strategies. I
believe it's out there on the Internet somewhere; it's titled
"Phil Klass vs. the 'UFO Promoters.'"  I wouldn't change a word
of it.  Everything Klass did in the years afterwards, up till
his recent retirement, simply underscored all of my observations
of his behavior.

This view of Klass is also held by many skeptics I have known,
including my late friends Gordon Stein (who worked at CSICOP
headquarters as its librarian and archivist, as well as writing
his own fine skeptical books) and Marcello Truzzi (who cofounded
CSICOP but left it when he saw that it would be dominated by
Klass types).

One does not have to be pro-UFO to hold Klass and his methods in
disdain. A particularly devastating portrayal of Klass appears
in Dennis Rawlins's "Starbaby" (which I believe is also out
there on the Internet), and it's hard to find a harder-core
skeptic (or a more honest one) than Rawlins.  Other prominent
skeptics, including Jim Lippard, Tom McIver, and Daniel Cohen,
have also told of their unhappy encounters with Klass.  Lippard
and McIver were so stunned by their experiences, in fact, that
each independently went to me afterwards for information and
enlightenment as a longtime Klass watcher.

If you admire Klass, you and I are living in very different
worlds, with very different expectations of what intellectual
integrity is and of how inquiry ought to be conducted, what is
reasonable argument and what is not, and what is fair game and
what is not.






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                         sTARBABY by Dennis Rawlins

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:42:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:42:17 -0500
Subject: sTARBABY by Dennis Rawlins




Source: C.U.R.A. - The International Astrology Research Center

http://cura.free.fr/xv/14starbb.html


sTARBABY by Dennis Rawlins

Note P.G.: This important article, published 20 years ago in
FATE Magazine (No. 34, October 1981), is reproduced by kind
permission of the editor.

Ever since it came into being the Committee for the Scientific
Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) has proudly
proclaimed itself the scourge of the "new nonsense": astrology,
ESP, UFOs and other phenomena of which it does not approve. Its
pronouncements on these and other subjects have received
widespread attention and uncritical acceptance in the news
media.

Critics such as Fate, professional parapsychologists and
moderate skeptics like former CSICOP cochairman Prof. Marcello
Truzzi, sociologist at Eastern Michigan University, have
questioned the Committee's commitment to objective, scientific
investigation of paranormal claims and have accused some CSICOP
spokesmen of misrepresenting issues and evidence. But such
dissenting views were little noticed by media writers eager to
headline sensational -- although frequently unsupported --
debunking claims.

The story that follows, written by a man who is himself
skeptical of the paranormal, confirms what critics of CSICOP
have long suspected: that the organization is committed to
perpetuating a position, not to determining the truth.

(The Editors of FATE Magazine).

I used to believe it was simply a figment of the National
Enquirer's weekly imagination that the Science Establishment
would cover up evidence for the occult. But that was in the era
B.C. -- Before the Committee. I refer to the "Committee for the
Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal" (CSICOP),
of which I am a cofounder and on whose ruling Executive Council
(generally called the Council) I served for some years.

I am still skeptical of the occult beliefs CSICOP was created to
debunk. But I have changed my mind about the integrity of some
of those who make a career of opposing occultism. I now believe
that if a flying saucer landed in the backyard of a leading
anti-UFO spokesman, he might hide the incident from the public
(for the public's own good, of course). He might swiftly
convince himself that the landing was a hoax, a delusion or an
"unfortunate" interpretation of mundane phenomena that could be
explained away with "further research."

The irony of all this particularly distresses me since both in
print and before a national television audience I have stated
that the conspiratorial mentality of believers in occultism
presents a real political danger in a voting democracy. Now I
find that the very group I helped found has partially Justified
this mentality.

*  *  *

CSICOP originated with the statement "Objections to Astrology,"
published in the September-October 1975 issue of The Humanist.
"Objections" was signed by 186 scientists, including 18 Nobel
prizewinners, who were justly upset at the growing newspaper
exploitation of a public that wasn't being informed that
astronomy and astrology aren't the same thing. "Objections" and
its child CSICOP were both the creation of The Humanist's then-
editor Paul Kurtz [1]  and received widespread national
publicity.

Unfortunately the statement was published (both in The Humanist
and by Kurtz's own private publishing house Prometheus Books) in
conjunction with a largely valuable article which included a
misconceived attack (by Lawrence Jerome) upon the claims of the
prominent French neoastrologers Michel and Francoise Gauquelin.
Almost none of the signers read Jerome's analysis before
publication.

Concerned that such an attack could cause trouble for the
rationalist movement, I contacted Kurtz for the first time by
phone on November 3, 1975. He admitted privately that I was just
one of a number of scientists who had called him about this
article immediately after The Humanist published it. But the
"Objections" statement was rushed into print intact, along with
the uncorrected article, by Prometheus.

The embarrassment was compounded when Michel Gauquelin proved to
be a more skilled statistician than his critic -- and intimated
possible legal action. Kurtz, under some pressure from within
the AHA for his antiparanormal effort, realized he had a
problem. Publicly he admitted no error but privately was frantic
to attack Gauquelin in print. Uncle Remus might say, Br'er
Kurtz, he could just hardly wait to sock that TARBABY a second
time to force him to release the stuck first fist.

During that first phone conversation Kurtz urged me to write an
article refuting Gauquelin -- in about two weeks -- to beat a
deadline for the January-February 1976 issue of The Humanist.
This is not, it need hardly be said, the way of well-researched
scholarship.

All that fall of 1975 Kurtz was mailing Jerome, me and UCLA
astronomer Prof. George Abell reams of articles relating to
Gauquelin, including the lengthy March 1975 report and alibis of
the Belgian Comite Para which some years earlier, to its
surprise, had confirmed the approximate successrate Gauquelin
had predicted in his strongest alleged neoastrological
correlation, now generally called the "Mars Effect": Gauquelin's
results showed that 22 percent of European sports champions are
born with Mars rising (Sector 1) or transiting (Sector 4), to
express it roughly. Since Gauquelin divides the sky into 12
sectors, the purely chance probability of Mars' being in a
prespecified pair of sectors is about 2/12 or 17 percent, well
below the observed rate of 22 percent. For the 2088 sports
champions in Gauquelin's sample, such a difference is
statistically very significant (because of the largeness of the
sample); the odds are millions-to-one against its having
occurred by chance.

I did what I could with the material at hand. Even while
continuing to analyze this strange problem, I sent Kurtz a paper
which he relayed to others interested in the case, among them
Jerome, Abell and Marvin Zelen (then director of the Statistical
Laboratory of the State University of New York at Buffalo, but
soon to move on to Harvard University). The paper, while
suggesting that there might be a natural explanation for the
Mars Effect, explicitly noted that if the European sampling was
unreliable no amount of analysis (based on this sample) could be
certain to detect that.

Thus, since a fresh sample and analysis of it would be an
enormous labor, my paper recommended that any new test offered
Gauquelin be both (a) extremely clear-cut in its predicted
result and (b) free from the complexities and subtle bias-
problems of sampling and of the astronomical/demographical
influences that affected the expected ("chance") level (to which
experimental observed data, once collected, would be compared).
I suggested a possible experiment that would satisfy these
conditions: Could Gauquelin use the position of Mars in
competing athletes' horoscopes to beat the posted odds on
sporting events?

At this time we all wondered, like other scientists on first
acquaintance with the Mars Effect, if there was a possible
"natural" (nonoccult) explanation. As seen from Earth, Mars
appears near the sun more often than not. And birth rates are
higher at dawn, when the sun enters Sector 1, so one would
expect all births (not just sports champions') to be slightly
more frequent when Mars is in Sector 1. For convenience I will
call this astronomical/demographical intrusion (or "influence")
the "Mars/dawn" factor. We will return to this since the
Keystone CSICOPs' inability to compute this factor (until years
after it was too late) was to prove their undoing.

My manuscript (which gently corrected the "Objections"-
affiliated false attack on Gauquelin) was not published in
January-February Humanist on the grounds that it had arrived too
late for the deadline -- although it had been written in less
than two weeks. Instead Kurtz published two other papers in that
Humanist issue: one by Abell, on astrology in general and
Gauquelin in particular, which based its discussion of the
gravitational effects of Mars on us upon a common popular-
science misconception, causing an error by a factor of a few
million. The other, by Zelen, was "A Challenge" to Gauquelin.

The Challenge was a classic control experiment: isolate the
sports ability variable by comparing the Mars horoscopic
positions of the champions Gauquelin had already collected vs.
the Mars horoscopic positions of all other persons (nonsports
champions), the "control" group, born about the same time and
place as the champions. If the control group exhibits the same
hit-rate (a "hit": being born when Mars resides in celestial
Sector 1 or 4) as the champions, 22 percent, then clearly sports
ability has nothing to do with the Mars Effect, which is thus
revealed as merely a by-product of purely natural influences.
This is what the top CSICOPs expected to happen.

If the nonchampions' hit-rate turns out to be what Gauquelin had
said is correct for ordinary people, namely 17 percent, then the
control experiment has come out in Gauquelin's favor, since
sports ability is isolated as the link to the five-percent
difference.

The Challenge concluded (emphasis added): "We now have an
objective way for unambiguous corroboration or disconfirmation.
... [Thus we may] settle this question" -- statements leaving no
doubt at all that if Gauquelin met this test he would achieve
confirmation of his claims.

I was appalled at the potential disaster that awaited if Zelen's
presumptions (that the European sample was unbiased and that the
cause of the Mars Effect was a natural influence) were wrong. As
I checked further into Gauquelin's output, I became convinced
there were serious problems in these presumptions. Kurtz said I
should speak with Abell whom I did not know personally. When I
reached him by phone on December 6,1 said I was worried about
the Challenge.

Abell snapped, "Oh-what's-wrong-with-it?" as if uttering one
word. I explained politely that the Challenge depended entirely
upon the validity of the European sampling. Abell said he was
sure that Gauquelin was honest and the Mars Effect was just a
natural influence in the data. I agreed that it had looked that
way at first to me too but that recent, still-proceeding
attempts to verify the Mars/dawn factor's actual effect left me
in skeptical suspension of judgment and thus in fear of possible
trouble. Why gamble the outcome of a crucial experiment upon
such an uncertain factor?

But to Abell that just wasn't worth bothering about. He was more
interested in who I was. Had he ever heard of me'? Had we met at
conferences?

I mentioned a few papers l'd published in top journals. In
addition I pointed out a couple of errors in his upcoming paper
(such as the gravitational effect of Mars previously referred
to) and I urged that these be corrected before the issue went to
press. He said they didn't matter; he'd rather leave them as
they were.

Since Abell and Kurtz wanted to check Gauquelin's calculations,
I offered to help since I had recently prepared an efficient
computer program that would calculate all planets' positions to
one arcminute accuracy, a program that could be adapted to the
Gauquelin project. Abell said fine, just send it along. He spoke
as if he were doing me a favor.

Declining his generosity, l repeated my offer to do the work if
it would help. He replied that it probably would be "easy" to
compile such a program; after all, the astrological outfits now
had computer horoscopes. So I suggested he try those routes. In
case he wished to construct his own program, l imparted a few
elegant mathematical shortcuts to assist him. l mention this
because anyone who understood the necessary science would have
quickly realized that I was an experienced specialist in this
area.

Nonetheless Abell subsequently told Kurtz and other CSICOPs that
I was an "amateur" and he continued to say so until October
1978. This was a major factor in CSICOP's decision to ignore me,
the only planetary-motion specialist ever involved in the
Gauquelin project (which was, of course, a planetary-motion
problem). At this point of no return, Kurtz depended upon
Abell's astronomical advice in his decisions on the Gauquelin
investigation. It was to take them two years (and help) to
perform the calculations Abell had called "easy."

*  *  *

I continued to examine the details of Gauquelin's claims and on
January 23,1976, completed a mathematical analysis showing
clearly that the "natural" Mars/dawn factor (a) couldn't come
anywhere near explaining the Mars Effect and (b) had been
already included by Gauquelin in his reports' expected-frequency
values. Although Gauquelin's method was different from mine, our
results were so similar that it was clear he had done this part
of his experiments correctly.

The Mars/dawn factor was the only possible "natural" influence
(although Zelen and Abell didn't seem to realize it) that could
have lifted the nonchampions' hit-rate from 17 to 22 percent.

I communicated this to Kurtz immediately and forcefully. Getting
no response, I phoned Zelen on March 8 and made an utterly
fruitless appeal. By this time the Challenge had been published.
And more support for it was in press, to appear (over my
strenuous objections) in March-April 1976 Humanist (page 53).

The forces of antioccultism met in Buffalo, N.Y., on April 30
and May 1, 1976, to found CSICOP. I gave one of the Founders'
Day speeches. It contained enough good press copy and one-liners
to get me selected for the nine-man ruling Council of CSICOP.

Founders' Day was above all a media event. Reporters were wooed
and catered to. I certainly had no objection to that, having had
largely pleasant encounters with the media. But I was naive
about the one overriding reality: a Committee that lives by the
media will inevitably be ruled by its publicists, not by its
scholars.

Once CSICOP was under way, I found myself not only on the ruling
Council but also on the editorial board. Although most of the
Fellows sought, like me, to battle pseudoscientific bunk, they
disagreed about the means. Except for the agreement to start a
magazine (Zetetic, later Skeptical Inquirer) there was little
cohesion on public policy, a vacuum that was filled (if not in
fact caused) by tacit cohesion on Private Priority Number One
for active CSICOP Fellows: maximum personal press coverage. [2]

Neither I nor most other Councilors were to be reinvolved in the
Gauquelin affair for some time, since Kurtz was handling it in
The Humanist, which he still edited.

I referred to Gauquelin's results in a paper for Humanist
publication sent to Kurtz on June 5, 1976, a paper soon
thereafter sent to Marcello Truzzi and eventually published in
Skeptical Inquirer (Fall-Winter 1977). It attacked Gauquelin's
Mars Effect on various grounds, pointedly excluding the Mars/
dawn factor on which Kurtz, Zelen and Abell (hereafter to be
called KZA) were gambling CSICOP's reputation.

The September-October 1976 issue of Humanist published a paper
by Abell and son, with commentary (formally coauthorship) by the
Gauquelins. I did not see it until much later. Kurtz was no
longer sending galleys or confiding to me the details of his
increasing obsession with his neoastrological sTARBABY.

The paper had a number of important features. For one thing,
Abell affirmed Zelen's "unambiguous corroboration or
disconfirmation" statement. As Abell put it, it "appears to be a
definitive test." He went on, "The [control] test will be
refereed by a disinterested and competent committee of
scientists, and we hope that the results will be available in
about six months." In fact, the test was never neutrally
refereed -- and the time estimate was equally ironic.

Reading Abell's article, I was struck, first, with the
realization that every calculation was simple arithmetic. His
computer analysis relied on an almanac provided by the U.S.
Naval Observatory which listed Mars' celestial longitudes at a
fixed interval. Instead of using spherical trigonometry to
convert Mars' positions to equatorial coordinates (as the
Gauquelin experiment required), Abell stuck with the ecliptical
coordinates of the USNO program.

Since Abell had indicated in December 1975 that he intended to
verify computationally Gauquelin's original calculations, I was
amazed to read now, nearly a year later, that "we have not
duplicated or checked the Gauquelins' original calculations" (my
emphasis). How the devil could this be, when Abell had in hand
(and was using in his simple-arithmetic analysis) a Mars almanac
and all the birth data for the 2000-plus sports champions of
Gauquelin's famous original Mars Effect study?

Incredibly, it appeared that over all the intervening months,
Abell, the CSICOP Gauquelin-test subcommittee's sole astronomer,
had not performed the elementary calculations of the astrologer
he was taking on! Abell drove Kurtz crazy with stalls, mostly
variations on not "having time" to do the work. Yet he found
time to do all 2000-plus calculations -- the wrong way -- for
the paper we've just been analyzing!

*  *  *

When 1977 opened, it had been v s the better part of a year
since I had had any contact with the Gauquelin matter. But
Skeptical Inquirer (then Zetetic) editor Truzzi asked me to
referee an antiastrology paper. l found to my astonishment that
the paper was promoting The Humanist and Comite Para theory
(which heretofore had not disgraced Skeptical Inquirer and
CSICOP directly) that Gauquelin's results could be explained
away by the Mars/dawn demographical influences.

Incredulous that my 1975-76 warnings were still being ignored, l
sent out on March 29, 1977, a full mathematical explanation of
the Mars/ dawn problem -- to no avail. The unkillable Mars/dawn
misconception appeared intact on page 50 of Spring-Summer 1977
Skeptical Inquirer.

But Truzzi did not ignore the memo's implications. He phoned to
ask if I would object to his sending the memo to Gauquelin to
show him that not everyone on CSICOP disagreed with him. l told
Truzzi to go ahead.

That summer Kurtz phone me in an agitated state. Gauquelin had
shown him the memo (apparently in early July). Then in August
Gauquelin attempted to quote the memo in an upcoming Humanist
paper. Feeling that this would be mistaken as support from me
for Gauquelin, l wrote Kurtz to ask that he publish a very short
paper (dated September 17, 1977), pointing out that (a) the
Mars/dawn effect ( KZA's only "out," their sole semiplausible
hope of justifying the Control Test) could not explain away
Gauquelin's results; (b) there was in fact no "natural"
explanation of the Mars Effect; (c) I believed that the sampling
of sports champions was amiss; and (d) I didn't believe
Gauquelin's claims merited serious investigation yet.

Angry that I had let the Mars/dawn memo get into Gauquelin's
hands in the first place, Kurtz urged that I ask Gauquelin not
to make public use of it. He then used the memo's privacy
(pretending this was my idea!) as a basis for deleting
Gauquelin's comments on the memo -- and scratching my proposed
September 17 paper altogether! [3]

I did not yet understand Kurtz's anxiety over heading off my
public dissent. He neglected to inform me that in press at this
very time was the upcoming KZA report on the Control Test
(nonchampions) results. This report flew right in the face of
the truth revealed in the very memo l'd agreed to keep private
only because I believed KZA would pay attention to it.

The KZA Control Test report appeared in November-December 1977
Humanist. It marked the beginning of the end of CSICOP's
credibility -- because it was at this point that the handling of
the Gauquelin problem was transformed from mere bungling to
deliberate cover-up.

Before publication the KZA Control Test report was shown to the
only other member of the Gauquelin subcommittee, Prof. Elizabeth
Scott of the statistics department of the University of
California at Berkeley, who was so upset ("I feel that the
[paper's] discussion may be misleading") that she telephoned
each one of the KZA trio (as I had done two years earlier). They
ignored her.

Back in December 1975 Abell had expressed an interest in
checking Gauquelin's celestial-sector positions but had not done
this even for his September-October 1976 Humanist article. Now
the new report (November-December 1977 Humanist, page 29) stated
(emphasis added): "The committee ... has not ... yet [!] checked
all [any?] of the [Gauquelin's celestial] computations. Prof.
Owen Gingerich (astronomer at Harvard) is in the process of
reviewing the calculations concerning the position of Mars ..."
In addition: "The committee has agreed to make an independent
test of the alleged Mars Effect by a study of sports champions
born in the United States. This test is now under way."

As the data started to come in, KZA realized they were in deep
trouble on the Control Test (based on European data entirely
computed by Gauquelin) and so were forced to propose the fresh-
sample American test in a July 1977 meeting with Gauquelin. By
autumn the birth-record data were coming in for the American
test. Now it was not a matter of just using Gauquelin's
celestial calculations; CSICOP must compute positions not
previously done -- and no report could be issued until this was
accomplished.

Kurtz started receiving the American birth data as early as
September. Stung by his private knowledge that he'd lost the
Control Test (as he confessed aloud at least once), he was
frantic to get on with the diversion of retesting (using the
American sample) as quickly as possible.

By October 20 Kurtz, who was getting nothing from Abell and
Gingerich, phoned and asked me, betraying not the faintest sense
of irony, if I could do the work. He was so relieved at my
consent that he instantly added me to the subcommittee on
Gauquelin (presumably to replace Elizabeth Scott, now a
nonperson). A CSICOP check for $100 accompanied the first
installment of 72 athletes' birth data.

Kurtz told me that this time he wanted an advance look at the
results, to see what was going to happen. He stressed that his
sneak peek was to be strictly confidential. In all innocence I
probably broke security first thing by phoning Abell in Los
Angeles on October 22 to ask where in San Diego I could gain
access to a computer. (I'd only just moved to California.)

Abell protested that he was doing the work with Gingerich, and
what the devil was Kurtz in such a rush for anyway? Although I
agreed that Kurtz was pushing, I remarked he'd waited two years
and one might forgive some impatience. Abell tried to talk me
out of getting involved but I stressed that this was entirely
Kurtz's idea, not mine. He and Gingerich were free to compute
these or any other data but Kurtz was hot to get a look at the
way things were going to come out.

Abell gave me the name of John Schopp of the astronomy
department of San Diego State University (SDSU) who'd helped
Abell with a textbook he'd written. So on October 27, two days
after the birth data arrived, I drove out to SDSU and met John
and his colleague Fred Talbert. Fred got me hooked up that
evening. I fed the problem into the computer, ran off the 72
positions and mailed a printout to Kurtz on the way home.

It's revealing that a lone "amateur" could perform at one
sitting a project that the combined CSICOP forces of UCLA,
Harvard and SUNYAB didn't get anywhere with for years, despite
their access to a highly accurate U.S. Naval Observatory
planetary-position program.

In succeeding weeks Kurtz mailed me further birth data as well
as unsolicited cash. At one point (after 120 names) I told him
by phone (he preferred hearing the accumulated score instantly,
without waiting the few days the mail took) that the key-sector
score was now at 22 percent. He groaned. l emphasized that the
sample size was too small for the result to be statistically
meaningful. He drew no comfort from this remark. l asked if he
were sure that this was a clean sample. He was, so I assured him
that the score was bound to revert to roughly 17 percent as the
sample got larger -- unless astrological claims were true, which
I certainly didn't believe.

Nonetheless he continued speaking in a pained voice, as someone
cursed with a demon that would not go away.

Meanwhile KZA's November-December 1977 Humanist Control Test
report appeared. No one then on CSICOP's Council (other than
Kurtz) had seen it before publication. [4]  Yet it committed
CSICOP to a cover-up course which ultimately sucked the whole
Council into sTARBABY's goo, as one's willingness to go along
with the cover-up (to protect The Cause) became a test of
loyalty.

In the report KZA tried to obscure the clear success Gauquelin
had scored. The Control Test had entailed analyzing 16,756
nonchampions born near (in time and space) 303 champions (a
subsample of the original 2088 champions). KZA had believed that
they too would score at 22 percent in key sectors ( I and 4)
thus establishing that the champions' 22 percent hitrate was
"natural."

Instead the nonchampions scored at exactly the chance -level (17
percent) that Gauquelin and I had predicted from our Mars/dawn-
corrected expectation-curve analysis.

Faced with this disaster KZA pulled a bait-and-switch. (Thus the
report will be hereafter called the BS report.) Suddenly
converting their nonchampions test into a champions test, they
attacked the subsample of 303 champions! The subsample had of
course been chosen simply as a means en route to testing the
point KZA had proposed the Control Test Challenge for in the
first place, namely, was chance level 17 percent or 22 percent?

Since the 303 had scored at 22 percent (like the full 2088) the
only ploy left was to protest that this 22 percent (of the 303)
was not strongly statistically significant (not as strong as for
2088). Now, anyone familiar with statistics knows that no sample
of 303 cases can produce strongly significant results if one is
trying to measure 22 percent versus 17 percent rates. But you
don't have to know statistics to realize that the attack on the
303-champion subsample's nonstrength could have been done before
the 16,756 nonchampions were collected and calculated -- at
enormous cost in time and labor to Gauquelin (all 303 champion
birth data had been calculated and published years ago).

To sum up: the whole purpose of the Control Test -- of
collecting nearly 17,000 nonchampions (the control group) -- had
been to test whether Gauquelin's champions' 22-percent hitrate
was just a "natural" (nonastrological) function of the time and
place of birth. Had the nonchampions control group shown at the
22-percent rate also, the "natural" hypothesis would have been
confirmed and Gauquelin's neoastrology would have been
disconfirmed.

However, the opposite occurred. The nonchampions' rate turned
out to be 17 percent, establishing the champions' 22-percent
rate as a real, highly significant above-chance result.

I first read the Control Test report in March 1978 after seeing
a letter in the March-April issue of Humanist from Lawrence
Jerome who "congratulated" CSICOP for confirming his erroneous
1975 analysis!

Incredibly Jerome was claiming Confirmation by the Zelen-Abell
test, =A1f his (and their) belief that astronomical/ demographical
biases explained Gauquelin's 22-percent rate. "The [Control]
test proved no such thing," I wrote Kurtz. "To the contrary,
[Zelen and Abell] confirmed Gauquelin's expectation values ...
showing that there was indeed about a 17-percent probability for
being in sectors I and 4 for nonchampions.... If I believed the
European sample was clean (which I don't), I would count the
[Control] test as a major proof in support of Gauquelin."

Years later I learned that Abell (as well as Kurtz) had known
the awful truth all along. In 1980 1 obtained a copy of the
smokiest Smoking Gun in this case, a letter written by Abell to
Kurtz on April 29, 1977, privately telling him what l've
explained here in preceding paragraphs -- the same thing l'd
often explained to KZA.

The Smoking Letter answers the same key question that hung over
the Watergate conspirators: When did they know? The answer is
astonishing: over half a year before the cover-up Control Test
report was published.

The letter admits that "in a sense" Gauquelin's calculation of a
17-percent chance-level had been "vindicated." Abell says the
very test CSICOP had urged Gauquelin to carry out had shown his
findings to be "significant." He also says that the 22 percent
applied to both the 303 subsample champions and the full 2088.

The Smoking Letter to Kurtz reveals that KZA knew they were in
trouble. But as Abell learned pronto, Kurtz wasn't about to
publish any letter that admitted Gauquelin had won the Control
Test. He was going to pretend that nothing had gone wrong.

Abell cosigned the BS report. Despite later claims that he
didn't know what he was signing, Abell has never broken publicly
with this report's united front.

Early in April I wrote KZA again, exhibiting in tabular form
further difficulties with their report. KZA had suggested that
the subsample of 303 champions showed geographical variations.
This move had broken the subsample into subsubsamples! (The
smaller a group, the weaker its ability to prove anything
statistically.)

My April 6 letter's tables simply showed that none of the
deviations (of, say, Paris' hit-rate vs. Belgium's) were
statistically significant. [5]

Again, Br'er Kurtz, he lay low: still no written reply.

In mid-April Kurtz visited California and we saw quite a bit of
each other. He couldn't stop talking about the Gauquelin
business. In the middle of conversations on other matters he
would grow silent and go back to discussing some possible "out."

During this visit and subsequent phone conversations Kurtz tried
out various schemes for getting off the hook. My favorite was
the notion that Gauquelin fudged the nonchampions to force the
score down to 17 percent. [6]

Hilarious. First, if fraud or bias was involved, it would be
lots easier to work it on the smaller original champions sample.
Second, it was ridiculous to suspect fraud simply because the
nonchampions came out at the very level chance would predict!

This is "scientific investigation" which CSICOP claims as its
middle name?

*  *  *

Incredibly, despite all, I remained largely unsuspicious --
indeed I was downright enthusiastic -- about CSICOP as a whole.

Late that spring of 1978 I was back East visiting my family.
Simultaneously Kurtz was in a tizzy because the last American
data in the Gauquelin test had come in and he was as frantically
impatient as ever to get them computed -- even waking my family
one night and then, after finding I wasn't in, hanging up so
abruptly that I found a note by the telephone the next morning
asking me who this "Curts" was.

Since I was about to fly to Europe (and my files were back in
San Diego) I suggested Kurtz get Abell, Gingerich or Jerome to
try to do the work. But Kurtz kept pleading.

So I postponed my European trip.

I bothered the Loyola College computer people for a computer
number and time. Next I hired trusted friend Mary Kidd to
determine time zones (for the whole American test to date).
Since she was sympathetic to astrology (and was not told that
Gauquelin was involved), this would eliminate possible bias on
my part. Needless to say, this is the sort of precaution that
should have been applied (much more rigorously) at the sampling
stage.

Mary interrupted her affairs to rush the zone-determinations
work and get it back to me. I went right to the computer and
stayed up all night typing in the program and the data. The next
morning, June 8, all 325 athletes' sector-positions were
computed, tabulated and dropped in the mail to Kurtz.

No sooner was this task finished and the American test
supposedly completed than Kurtz phoned me up and said oops, we
accidentally missed a lot of names -- they'll be sent right away
to the states' birth-record offices and we'll get the birth data
back late this summer .

So the whole push-and-shove aggravation of all those helpful
people had been as needless as the original Control Test
Challenge.

I returned to San Diego some weeks later. The last 82 names came
in at summer's end.

I ran off the final data at SDSU. The cumulative score was not
22 percent or 17 percent but only 13'/2 percent -- strongly
anti-Gauquelin. On September 18 I sent Kurtz a table of the
totals for all 407 American athletes along with a brief report
on the results which included gentle corrections of the various
past errors published by CSICOP Fellows throughout this affair.

Since I had performed all the science of the American experiment
that had reversed the earlier (Control Test) Gauquelin victory
over CSICOP (lifting a three-year curse from Kurtz's shoulders),
I innocently thought that Kurtz could hardly refuse again to
publish my dissent. In a covering note I made it clear that this
time I would insist. The moment Kurtz read this, l was a dead
CSICOP in his royal eyes.

When the report arrived on September 20, Kurtz phoned to gush
about how much he liked it, adding, however, that Zelen and
Abell might not agree. Then he casually asked if I could send
along the readout of individual positions too. He spoke of the
upcoming Council meeting and press conference (to be held in
Washington, D.C., on December 6, 1978) and assured me my travel
fare would be paid.

The very next day, without even waiting for the data to arrive,
Kurtz wrote Abell to suggest that KZA confer and prepare the
test report for publication (excluding me). He did this, l
remind the reader, less than 24 hours after assuring me he was
eager to publish my September 18 report.

Kurtz's letter also called on Zelen and Abell -- the very men
whose long immobility on the Gauquelin project had led to my
being asked to do the computation -- to verify the work! Kurtz
enclosed for Abell the readouts of the first 325 celestial-
sector positions without saying anything to me about it, since I
had emphasized that providing answers is the worst way to get
independent checks of them.

It is obvious from his September 21 letter that Kurtz's promise,
made the day before, to publish my report was being rethought.

Sure enough, once the calculations for the last 82 athletes had
reached him, Kurtz phoned me and made two things clear:

(1) He wasn't so sure that The Humanist was the right place
after all for my report. He mentioned Skeptical Inquirer. (Later
he welched even there.)

(2) He didn't think he could pay my way to the meeting in
Washington.

With Kurtz's letter Abell received my answers for 325 of the
American athletes. Ten days later Abell still had not reproduced
them. With Kurtz frantically pushing for verification Abell was
feeling the pressure. On October 5 he called to rage at me for
over an hour. I call it the Jaws phone call.

Abell started it by complaining that KZA hadn't-had-the-time to
compute the 407 data, adding that I had. He asked me to describe
my method to him allegedly because he was supposed to check my
work. Since he now had all the answers from Kurtz, there was no
longer any good scientific reason not to. So I did -- especially
after finding that Abell still had a misconceived idea of how to
perform the sector calculations.

Abell asked me to send a copy of my computer-program so that he
could verify it. l responded that obviously it would be simpler
just to check a few of the answers he now possessed via hand-
calculation out of the American Ephemeris & Nautical Almanac.

Nevertheless Abell persisted, eventually justifying himself by
saying he wanted to check out all the ordmag 1000 lines of the
program to insure its accuracy! At any rate, l refused to give
the program to anyone talking such transparent nonsense.

Abell couldn't believe that my calculations were correct because
the score had come out at 13 1/2 percent instead of 22 percent.
He wondered if I had tampered with the sample. I replied the
sample came from Kurtz.

By choice I had had nothing to do with gathering the sample.
Obviously neither had Abell. Nonetheless Kurtz insisted that
Abell coauthor the lengthy published Skeptical Inquirer report.
Unfortunately "coauthorship" in a Kurtz publication need not
require that you cowrite "your" paper -- or even read it before
publication. Your name gets tacked on to add prestige -- and you
get to read all about it when it's published!

Abell asked countless questions about my academic training.
Obviously unaware that my papers on planetary motion had been
published in eminent astronomical journals here and abroad, he
demanded, "How do I know you're not just a bullshitter?"

On October 6, the day after the Jaws call, Abell phoned San
Diego State University to verify his suspicion that someone
besides the "amateur" had actually done the Gauquelin experiment
computations. He visited SDSU on the 11th, questioning at least
two more scholars, who told him I had seemed quite competent
when I delivered a recent lecture to an astronomy department
symposium.

Between September 20 and late October I spoke fairly regularly
with Kurtz regarding the Gauquelin problem and the upcoming
December 6 Washington press conference. His private intentions
surfaced as soon as his use for my work was finished.

Soon enough it became apparent that not only was Abell being
invited to the press conference, he was to be the CSICOP
spokesman on astrology in Washington -- this despite Kurtz's
open admission in our conversations over the previous months
that there had been a screw-up in the UCLA and Harvard experts'
calculations. But now suddenly he began disremembering he'd ever
said that!

I had now to face the fact that Kurtz was trying to suppress my
dissenting report and (by not paying my travel fare) keep me
from the December Council meeting, while inviting to Washington
as a prominent CSICOP authority the very person whose appointed
task I had myself performed.

I phoned Kurtz on October 23 in one final attempt to impress
upon him the fact that he was locking CSICOP into an
investigation that would curse the Committee to its dying day.
It was the only time I ever raised my voice in any CSICOP
dealings.

I hammered at Kurtz that the Control Test project he had led us
into had been irretrievably lost and it was discreditable to
pretend otherwise. Even if Gauquelin had faked the control
(nonchampions) sample (which I don't believe for a moment he
did), such a point cannot be raised post hoc -- because CSICOP
should have had the foresight to keep the sample-taking from
getting into Gauquelin's interested hands in the first place,
especially since prior to the challenge I had warned KZA not to
trust Gauquelin's sampling. What use is it to run tests if the
side whose hypothesis loses can just scream "fake" as it
pleases?

Kurtz seemed uncharacteristically subdued. Finally, when I
pointed out that he was backing down on his promise to publish
my report in The Humanist, he said he couldn't publish it there
now for the simple reason that a day or so earlier he'd been
fired as Humanist editor after 11 years at the post.

Concurrently a subplot was developing. On October 15 Councilor
James Randi phoned and I mentioned some of my problems with KZA.
On the 18th, when Randi phoned again, l remarked how odd it was
that I had no written record (despite requests for such made
over many months). Would Randi speak with Kurtz and get some
firm answers? The next day Randi wrote a trial letter to Kurtz
and sent me a checking copy before mailing it.

In the letter Randi agreed I was right in arguing that the
Gauquelin test had been ill-designed and should not have been
done. Now that the whole thing had backfired, Kurtz -- out of
his depth when he attempted a scientific experiment -- was
clearly responsible. Randi also criticized Abell for snooping
into my background. If this was the way CSICOP business was
going to be conducted, then CSICOPs were no better than the
parapsychologists who covered up their mistakes. Randi asked why
my expenses to the Washington meeting were not being paid [7]
and concluded by admitting that he was "mad," saying he seldom
wrote such a letter except to parapsychologists. He assured
Kurtz that no one besides him, Martin Gardner and me would see
it.

I called Randi on the 21st and urged him to phone Kurtz to get
his immediate reaction to the letter. For obvious reasons I
didn't want to give Kurtz a lot of time to concoct fresh
excuses.

After he had talked with Kurtz Randi called me back on the 23rd
saying only that KZA had still not confirmed my calculations.
Randi's call, which indicated trouble was brewing, seems to have
inspired Abell. Two days later, using the method explained to
him on October 5, he got the same answers as I had. He phoned me
the news that evening (October 25) and urged that I do an
expectation-curve for the American sample. I suggested he do the
math. As a matter of fact l'd already done it myself and had
mailed copies of the results to Gardner and Randi two days
earlier.

On October 23 I had sent some background documents concerning
sTARBABY to Randi and Gardner. Gardner wrote back six days
later, chuckling about what an incredibly hilarious foul-up the
whole thing had turned out to be. To a further packet of
documents he repeated his feeling of deep amusement but he
wasn't interested in doing anything about it.

When Kurtz phoned me on October 31, 1 (as a member of the CSICOP
subcommittee on Gauquelin) asked for copies of Committee records
and his correspondence with the various appropriate parties on
the Gauquelin experimentation, thus putting to the test my
hypothesis that he was deliberately avoiding the written word.
Kurtz refused to send anything and said the dealings had been
almost entirely by phone. (Later I saw copies of important
correspondence and learned this was not true.)

On November 2 I wrote KZA asking:

(1) What was being looked for in the Control Test?

(2) Did KZA and Humanist readers know this from the start?

(3) Wasn't the test designed to show that the control group
(nonchampions) would or wouldn't score at 22 percent like the
champions? And if the control group had scored at 22 percent,
wouldn't you have publicly concluded that Gauquelin lost the
challenge?

(4) If you carry through your current plan to declare the
Control Test "invalid," what if Gauquelin then challenges you to
repeat it yourself? (Gauquelin would have won regardless; Abell
later figured this out . )

(5) If a "valid" repetition isn't possible, are we not back at
square one, where we were at the time of warnings not to get
into this mire?

(6) If the Control Test is repeated, what do we look for?

(7) What will be your and CSICOP's position if the test again
comes out in Gauquelin's favor (as I know it will)?

(8) Did you (or colleague) make any pretest estimates of
approximate magnitude of astronomical/demographic [Mars/dawn]
effects -- before issuing a challenge, the outcome of which
depended entirely upon this question? Were you acquainted with
any of Gauquelin's detailed quantitative discussions of these
matters?

(9) The Bait-and-Switch (BS): "Why collect 16,756 new
nonchampions -- and then attack [in the BS report] a [sub]sample
of 303 old champion data because it is too small when it is in
fact typical of the whole (22 percent success, just like the
full sample of 2088, which is certainly not too small) and is
about twice as large as you requested in your original challenge
(Humanist, January-February 1976, page 33)? ... I have no
written reply ... to this or any other point raised since the
beginning of our involvement with the Gauquelin question ... I
will ask the CSICOP editorial board to have the nonchampions
[Control] test refereed by neutral judges before the Committee
becomes any further entangled in this endless thicket, via
publication in the hitherto-spared Skeptical Inquirer."

I had strongly protested the high-handedness of the choice of
Abell as speaker at the annual meeting because of his
involvement with sTARBABY. I emphasized that CSICOP had plenty
of astronomers associated with it (Carl Sagan, Bart Bok, Edwin
Krupp and others), all of them nearer Washington than Abell who
lived all the way across the country, in the Los Angeles area.

Frustrated at being presented with a fait accompli regarding the
permanent attachment of the sTARBABY albatross to CSICOP, I
indicated that, since this had been done without consultation
with me-(the sole astronomer on the Council), I was being forced
to register a dissent (which had repeatedly been denied me in
the pages of Kurtz's magazine) perhaps at the same press
conference at which the damage to CSICOP was to occur, in order
to ameliorate that damage. Such a prospect chilled the Council.

Kurtz's initial move was a threat that Zelen and Abell would be
on hand personally to settle my hash at the private December 5
Council meeting. I asked if that were a promise.

On November 19 Kurtz called in the worst shape l'd ever found
him. The prospect of a discordant CSICOP voice's being heard at
his orchestrated press conference had badly frazzled his nerves.
During the conversation he invoked, rather emotionally, our past
mutual efforts -- for example in removing editor Truzzi.

I believe he felt genuinely bewildered and betrayed. To him
reportage of contrary results was basically a political, not a
scientific, matter. There was no chance of communicating on
this. To me Kurtz was a censor. To him I was a traitor. Both of
us felt a lack of gratitude.

He got to the point: he didn't want any trouble in Washington.
In a strong, emotion-strained whisper he virtually hissed, "I'll
do anything to avoid trouble."

I said fine, just get me some written answers to my questions on
the Control Test and don't invite Abell to speak at the meeting.
Kurtz said he had "no time" (sound familiar?) for written
replies; then, contradicting his own account of October (when
he'd said to me, hey, let's invite George), he added that Abell
had been invited way back in August

Kurtz had earlier maintained his long secrecy about Abell's
speech invitation because he thought I would want to speak
instead (and would otherwise be so miffed I mightn't finish the
U S data if I learned of Kurtz's intentions) So now he offered
to let me speak too I told him that he obviously didn't
understand the problem

Yet one must realize that in his own mind Kurtz had every reason
to believe he'd found his solution Another chapter in our
ongoing anthropology lesson: the clash of two alien cultures,
public relations vs. scholarship

Kurtz tried another let's-make-a-deal ploy, bursting out. "But I
agree with you" He went on to blame the whole sTARBABY mess on
Zelen and Abell! They had led him into the pit! But he would do
nothing beyond private assent

After we had finished! I phoned Randi to report Kurtz was trying
to buy silence on the Gauquelin mess. By the next day (November
20) a Council deal had been concocted (and offered) that would
have me chair the astrology section of the press conference. Of
course this would entail my introducing Abell. My reply was the
old adage that a man who can't be bribed can't be trusted

At this Kurtz exploded in raging fear that his holy press
conference would be ruined. He immediately phoned the Councilors
and expressed concern that I might attack the Gauquelin project
from the floor during the conference; some way had to be found
to get me kicked off the Council. (This sudden search for a
pretext to eject me -- the first suggestion of the need for my
demise -- should be kept in mind because Council is now at great
pains to dredge up any other sort of "offense" on my part as the
good reason for booting me To borrow from the business world,
let us recall the immortal words of J. P. Morgan: "For every
action there are two reasons: a good reason and the real
reason.")

*  *  *

Randi and I drove to Washington together on December 4. Late
that afternoon while Michael Hutchinson and I were in Randi's
suite, Kurtz called to speak with me.

He immediately accused me of lying and conspiring against him
(this only a few days after trying to organize a secret movement
to have me thrown off the Council for the crime of dissent). [8]
I asked him to cite a single falsehood l'd ever told him. Unable
to name one, he asked me to say what I thought his deceits were.
I offered to provide a partial catalog if he were really
interested -- but would do it at the Council meeting the next
day.

Kurtz wanted to know if I intended to attack sTARBABY at the
press conference. When I refused to make any promises, Kurtz
grew more furious. We couldn't have a "schism," he said.

Council met the next day at Councilor Phil Klass' apartment. I
noticed that Randi was his usual friendly self when Kurtz wasn't
around but when he was within earshot Randi made different
noises. He repeatedly cracked loudly, "Drink the Kool-Aid,
Dennis." (This was shortly after the Jonestown Kool-Aid mass
suicide.) During the afternoon meeting, when we established a
rule for expelling Councilors, Randi bellowed that it is called
the "Rawlins rule."

Randi meant, of course, that expulsion could come for public
dissent. No other Councilor present (Gardner was not) said a
word to suggest any other inference. I might add that two months
later Randi foolishly boasted about how he "had to work to keep
Dennis in line" in Washington, having convinced himself,
apparently, that his threats had kept me quiet.

How these things grow! In 1975 and 1976 it was just a dumb,
arrogant mistake by only three CSICOP Fellows. In 1977 it was
their BS report, deliberate deception-cover-up. The next year,
1978, brought Kurtz's attempts first to bribe me and then
(secretly) to eject me. Now there were Randi's threats.

As we were milling around, one Councilor asked where Abell was.
Indeed, where was Abell? This, after all, was the awaited moment
of the showdown Kurtz had threatened -- to blow away the amateur
(Zelen also didn't show.) CSICOP's leader announced that Abell
had a cold and was confined to his room. I wondered if it was a
paranormal flu bug that might wane just in time to permit Abell
to give his press-conference speech next day. (It did.)

The evening session studiously avoided the prescheduled
Gauquelin discussion. Finally I raised the issue. Klass
helpfully jumped in to say that it was too late in the evening.
Kurtz perversely objected that Abell and Zelen weren't there
Randi said not a word -- but Skeptical Inquirer editor Ken
Frazier said l'd waited patiently and Ray Hyman suggested we
discuss the matter.

I started right out by saying that this was an issue that would
determine whether the Committee was worthy of existence. The
provisional hope to jettison sTARBABY was now impossible. The
language of the original Control Test Challenge and subsequent
testaments to its "definitive" nature had left no way around the
fact that we had lost and Gauquelin had won.

Klass, ever ready with useful remarks, interrupted to say that
all this sounded like "just a lot of griping."

Randi continued to say nothing except at one point he suggested
that I not answer even the direct questions of a reporter at the
upcoming press conference .

Kurtz wouldn't admit that sTARBABY was a loss. He fell back on
the alleged support of the absent Abell and Zelen. so I reminded
him of our November 19 phone conversation in which he had tried
privately to blame the whole mess on them I then produced and
read Councilor Gardner's letter calling the Control Test a
hilarious mess At this point Kurtz sprang from his seat and
roared, "Well, you're wrong!" He grabbed the letter, glanced at
it in disbelief and announced that Gardner didn't know what he
was talking about

Continuing with his helpful suggestions, Klass urged that I
state the problem in writing! (I was the only party who had )

During all this Kurtz never took into account the depth of my
reluctance to harm CSICOP, a movement I had cofounded with him
So to Kurtz's surprise and temporary relief I said nothing at
the press conference and did not even raise my hand to ask a
question Naively, I still had hopes for CSICOP -- shortly to be
dashed forever

=46rom the press conference we went to lunch I was asked to sit
with Abell and Kurtz Disturbed that I was yet again getting into
a nonwritten exchange, I quickly went over to Ken Frazier and
Bob Sheaffer and told them that things were probably going to be
said to which there ought to be an outside witness Would either
come and sit in on it? Not a chance -- both flatly refused It
was then I knew CSICOP would probably never get well

Abell and I were introduced. He remembered to mention his cold
and at first sniffed convincingly (especially for someone with
no red around his nose) but neglected to do so later. [9]

Now, 10 minutes after the completion of his press conference
with no embarrassment, Kurtz's plan to suppress my dissenting
September 18 report came out of the closet As the three of us
sat down to lunch, Kurtz and Abell said they and Zelen would
write the published report and in it thank me for doing the
calculations. Whereas earlier Kurtz had tried to disavow blame
for sTARBABY, this time it was Abell who was unloading
responsibility for it When I expressed abhorrence of the BS
report, Abell replied that he was in Europe and didn't read it
before cosigning it Kurtz shot back, "Oh, yes, you did!" [10]

A few minutes later Christopher Evans (since deceased) came by
and took the empty fourth chair at our table Within seconds of
his joining us Abell had told him of his BBC television series
and all three were talking of such matters. Right then it dawned
on me I had come to promote open-ended scientific research --
but the real purpose here was media wheeling and dealing And
that is why we were meeting at the temple of CSICOP's faith, the
National Press Club

The subsequent afternoon proceedings dealt primarily with
international organizing and publicity schemes But no one seemed
interested in defining what all the hoopla was for. Which was
reasonable enough -- because that was what it was for.

*  *  *

On January 17, 1979, I wrote a memorandum on the dirty dealing
I'd witnessed. I sent it and another memo ("On Fighting
Pseudoscience with Pseudoscience") to most of CSICOP's Fellows.
I inquired of Bart Bok if he could find a competent astronomer
to take over my duties.

The first Fellow to phone Randi about the memoranda asked him
about various charges they contained Randi admitted
uncomfortably that they were true as far as he knew -- but then
he quickly changed the subject

More often, however, the Councilors -- the same ones who had
chided me for ad hominems -- declared, "Dennis is just a wild
man " Someone who acts on principle probably does appear to
CSICOPs to be a creature from the antipodes.

Since we're speaking of "wild": Klass and Randi reacted to my
January memos by claiming they couldn't understand the
indictment!

Klass added another fantastic touch to Council's reaction,
contending that it was fruitless to try to "turn back the clock
like Uri Geller." Funny, I used to know a Phil Klass who
circulated long lists of conflicting statements made by Allen
Hynek, going back many years, asking if these are the same Allen
Hyneks. And this was the same Phil Klass who now wasn't
interested in the past?

Many of CSICOP's Fellows fell for the unity pitch or copped a
none-of-my-business plea A letter from one Fellow amused me in
light of Council pretenses that it didn't understand the charges
His letter, dated January 26 1979, makes plain how clear my
January memos were The writer understood that the experimental
results supported Gauquelin, that Kurtz, Abell and Zelen had
screwed up the test and that CSICOP's leaders, primarily Kurtz,
had tried to cover up the mess, thereby creating a
"Buffalogate." This writer said he had long harbored doubts
about the way CSICOP was being run.

A later letter written by the same Fellow contains a prescient
sentence: "I regard your charges as very serious. ... Something
must be done before we read about all of this in FATE "

I received a long letter from J. Derral Mulholland, one of the
world's leading celestial mechanics experts He permitted me to
distribute the letter to CSICOP's Fellows

The letter said Mulholland had been unaware that CSICOP had an
elite Council that apparently was answerable to nobody Council
members evidently were using CSICOP's name to advance their
personal ends. Some persons associated with the organization
were making pronouncements on subjects outside their area of
competence. If CSICOP were to remain scientifically credible, it
had better use scientific methods such as controlled tests with
predefined criteria for success and failure, and nonprotaganists
should judge the results. Alibis, image problems and economic
concerns were irrelevant to the real issues.

I proposed Mulholland as a Fellow, someone who might replace my
astronomical input. This proposal was never even acknowledged.

*  *  *

By April 1979 Council, which had held its breath for months
breathed again, this time a deep sigh of relief: no resignations
and no news stories. Kurtz phoned on April 9, hoping to placate
me. I said to put the answers to my questions on sTARBABY in
writing. That was that.

The next day Frazier offered this alibi for nonpublication of my
September 18 report: he wished someone would write an article
that straightened out the "mess" once and for all, but there
seemed no way to resolve the matter, even though Frazier
confessed to a "gut feeling" that I might be right in some of my
criticisms .

He claimed that my writings on the controversy were unclear and
overheated. But in fact CSICOP's own eventual referee reports
found my September 18 report (which for now Frazier refused for
lack of clarity) to be clearer than KZA's report on the same
material Also my original unanswered questions to KZA were all
exceedingly polite -- before the censorial outrages starting in
autumn 1978.

I replied on April 19:

... incredible -- even aside from the various matters you (along
with the rest of the Council) continue to shut your eyes to. In
particular, you [all] still attempt to pretend that you don't
understand the [sTARBABY] problem and don't know how to go about
doing so. This is a ploy fully worthy of the kooks. As you well
know, I have urged the refereeing of the matter for months. The
only reply has been: silence.

What sort of Committee claims (in its very title) to be in the
business of testing occult claims, yet can't even find a way to
evaluate its own first and biggest test? What use is its
testing, if the Committee cannot be counted upon to report the
results honestly?

As for the no-compromise pose:

(l) Most of the Councilors (including Kurtz and Abell) either
know or strongly suspect the truth. The problem isn't what's the
truth but how to deal with it, p.r.-wise.

(2) Even without any scientific background one can just observe:

(a) Which side has made a complete. Open. written record -- vs.
a year of refusal to commit answers in writing, while
frantically juggling stories privately?

(b) Which has tried to silence the other by expulsion?

(c) Which has called for refereeing-arbitration? Which has
steadfastly ignored the suggestion?

In any controversy within the Committee, it is always possible
that the mistaken party will (instead of owning up) put up a
smokescreen of alibis and pseudocomplexities (just like the
occultists do, every time they lose). In that case is the
attitude of the Council to be that, well, the whole matter is
too complicated to adjudicate?!

At this time Kurtz attempted to persuade Gauquelin to agree to
the suppression of even my mild September 18 report. He also
tried to dissuade Gauquelin from visiting me during the latter's
April trip to San Diego.

He never told me any of this. Instead he pretended (as he had
the previous year) that he might be willing to publish my report
if KZA got to sum it all up afterward. And this is roughly how
it was done eventually.

However, my challenge to call in outside refereeing (as Abell
had promised in September-October 1976 Humanist) to determine
the truth did not tempt the Committee.

During this period Randi would occasionally phone up for a
friendly "just-happened-to-be-thinking-of-you" chat. l suspected
he was trying to draw out of me statements of anger or of
dissatisfaction. Despite his private rages Randi wished to make
no public waves. When I asked him why, he repeated the tired old
alibi that the occultist kooks would whoop it up if Kurtz fell.
But he claimed that he had dressed down Kurtz (privately) in
Washington in December. He stated without qualification that
Gardner Hyman and he all supported my scientific position on the
sTARBABY mess. (I knew, however, that he was telling all
inquiring Fellows that a little old nonstatistician like himself
just couldn't understand the problem.)

Next Randi (and soon afterwards Bob Sheaffer) tried to get me
involved in new projects, i.e., diversions. As part of this
effort Randi asked my advice on the Helmut Schmidt
parapsychology experiment which some CSICOPs had been
investigating. I simply urged that it be approached with all the
caution KZA had thrown to the winds in 1975 and 1976. He assured
me how cautious he was in the testing for his well-publicized $
10,000 prize for proof of psychic abilities (for which he acts
as policeman, judge and jury -- and thus never has supported my
idea of neutral judgment of CSICOP tests. "I always have an
out," he said.

*  *  *

Things had quieted down by late spring 1979. All the while I was
mercifully occupied at sane, non-CSICOP projects.

Then on June 24 Randi phoned mentioning he'd just talked with
Truzzi. Randi seemed suddenly anxious to settle the sTARBABY
problem. Two days later he wrote a letter to the Council stamped
CONFIDENTIAL on both pages. It said he hoped he and the other
Councilors could find a way out of a long-standing problem.
Randi observed that CSICOP was always under the watchful eye of
irrationalists who chortled at every apparent failing, as
witness the response to Truzzi's resignation. [11]  At the
Washington meeting he had feared the Gauquelin affair would be
brought up in front of reporters. That would have been
unfortunate because CSICOP cannot afford to wash its dirty linen
in public.

But then Randi hit upon a solution. Why should CSICOP worry
about the Gauquelin matter? If (Randi's emphasis) the thing was
a mistake, Councilors should decide once and for all that it was
never a CSICOP project and be done with it.

Randi's letter touched on another subject of interest to both
sides of the paranormal controversy, relative to my proposal (in
an early issue of Skeptical Inquirer) that the American
Association for the Advancement of Science reevaluate its
decision to let the Parapsychological Association be affiliated
with it if the PA could not produce a repeatable experiment. A
petition I had circulated among the Fellows had drawn support
from some of CSICOP's leading lights.

His letter said that when physicist John Archibald Wheeler
denounced the parapsychologists (as he had done the previous
January) and urged that they be kicked out of the AAAS,
Councilors "cheered." But they "forgot" [12]  that I had
suggested the same thing and been rebuffed. [13]

Curiously, the following November Randi cosigned a letter to the
PA stating, "We have no intention of requesting the 'expulsion'
of the Parapsychological Association from the AAAS and would be
opposed to such a move" (Spring 1980 Skeptical Inquirer). I will
leave it to the higher theologians on the Council to reconcile
this statement with the foregoing CONFIDENTIAL document's
statement, "We cheered."

I might have been more impressed with the CONFIDENTIAL letter
had it not been for another piece of mail that arrived the same
day. It was a letter from Jerome Clark of FATE asking me to
relate the sTARBABY episode for publication.

The mystery of Randi's strangely sudden desire to open up
sTARBABY evaporated. Before answering FATE I called Randi (on
July 6) and asked whether perchance Truzzi had mentioned FATE
during their communication just before Randi phoned me on June
24.1 got a well-we-talked-about-a-lot-of-things response and
hmm-well-maybe-we-did

I mentioned the coincidence of his let's-get-moving CONFIDENTIAL
letter arriving the very day I heard from FATE after six months
of CSICOP inaction. It was about a 200-to-one shot. He suggested
"synchronicity." (And CSICOP is supposed to be antiparanormal.)

Randi also admitted (having learned elsewhere that I already
knew) the Kurtz-NisbetKlass-Randi plan to try to silence my
dissent at the December 6 National Suppress Club meeting.

We hung up on slightly better terms than l'd expected although I
remained quite disgusted that only the threat of FATE exposure
had produced even token motion toward nonsuppression.

I had asked Randi the big question, the question all CSICOPs
will be asking themselves for years to come: Why? Why get
involved in a conspiracy that was as stupid as it was low? Why
do something that would mark him and CSICOP for the rest of
their lives? The reply was ever the same: We can't let the
mystics rejoice. A lifetime price -- just to prevent a little
transient cuckoo chirping.

On August 11 Randi again wrote the Council to discuss CSICOP's
response to the FATE interview with Truzzi, saying the latter
had been dumped because he wanted the journal (then called The
Zetetic) to be a scholarly rather than a popular publication.
[14]

I told the Council l'd be open with FATE. Part of my reasoning
was that, although I didn't wish to hurt rationalism, I felt
that realpolitik cynics were taking advantage of that very
reluctance and their increasing power was endangering
rationalism's reputation. These were the wrong people to be
carrying the cause's banner.

As the FATE-story realization set in, Council reacted like the
White House when it learned that John Dean had sat down with the
prosecution. The awareness of how much I knew and what would
happen if I told all -- this was the stuff of nightmares. Thus a
new game plan was needed: Be nice to the wild man. Soothe.
Flatter. Laugh at his jokes. Project as honest and self-critical
an image as possible -- at least until the problem subsides
again.

By August 24 Frazier had received from Kurtz a 45-page package
of four papers; the shortest of them was my original September
18 report on my Gauquelin results. Kurtz evidently hoped to bury
the embarrassing parts (mild as they were) of my report in the
sheer volume of print.

Since I had repeatedly requested refereeing, the board decided
it would have to go through the motions.

Refereeing in professional journals is the backbone of the
legitimate scientific community. In serious journals the process
requires months of careful examination, often back-and-forth
communication among author, editor and referees.

But if this were done now, some blunt, explicit revisions l'd
already promised (last April 5) might have time to find their
way into my previously-gentle September 18 report. So,
professing fear that Gauquelin might "skoop" (sic) CSICOP,
Frazier suddenly sent the 45-page, four-paper package to various
CSICOPs (not neutral referees as promised in September-October
1976 Humanist) -- with the demand that the results be back
within 10 days! Maybe it was just another of our paranormal
coincidences that I was away from home while this was going on.

All of this activity took place without my knowledge -- although
I was the author of one of the papers, the calculator of the
entire study, a Councilor and associate editor of the magazine.
Thus two referees, as yet unaware of the problems with the
Control Test (defended in KZA's paper in the Gauquelin package),
were insulated from my pointing these out to them. And my own
paper was being rushed into print not only without my approval
of its form but in actual defiance of my written statement that
I would have to revise it in the direction of bluntness.

When I returned to San Diego late on October I, 1979, 1 learned
that Frazier had left a message on September 24 saying that his
deadline was October 1. Still no mention of the secret rush-
refereeing, which I learned of only upon telephone questioning
the next day. I asked for copies.

When the material arrived on the sixth the consensus of CSICOP's
own referees was in my favor (versus Professors Kurtz, Zelen and
Abell) in all major departments: (a) clarity, (b) technical
competence, (c) honesty and (d) defensibility of conclusions. No
scientific criticisms were leveled against my report, while the
two statisticians among the referees criticized the KZA paper on
various grounds.

Only one of these two referees had been forewarned (not just by
me) about the problems with the 1977 BS report, the central
nonsense of which KZA were again ladling out. Appalled, he
counseled neutral refereeing by appropriate experts before
rushing into publication

Here are some excerpts from the referee report (on KZA
contributions to the Gauquelin package) by the sole Councilor
trained in statistics:

I would be irresponsible if I did not point out serious defects
in the documents in their present form .... ambiguities should
be avoided -- especially if they can be interpreted as evasions
or ways to wriggle out of a prior commitment ... quibbling over
whether to include [a very few] females in the sample ... looks
like post hoc playing around to push the data in their [KZA's]
favor. At what point did they [KZA] decide NOT to include
females -- after they knew the results or before? The same can
be said over the splitting of the data to try to show that the
major effect is carried by the Paris [-born athletes]. Again
this is post hoc. Besides the splitting of the small sample into
even smaller subsamples, of course, lowers the power [of the
study's significance] considerably .... What is important is
that the entire sample, taken as a whole, shows the [Mars]
effect .... Such post hoc rummaging [for possible hitherto-
unnoted trends in the data] has to be kept in perspective. It
can supply ideas and hypotheses for a new study but it has no
basis for drawing conclusions [for this study].

I suspect that as a LEGAL debate G won this first round [Control
Test. Afterwards, it appears other factors] than a true Mars
effect ... might account for the correlation. But, as originally
stated, G has won.... I hope that they [KZA] can see that a
neutral reader ... can interpret their criticisms as post hoc
attempts to wriggle out of an uncomfortable situation.

*  *  *

The first weekend after my October 2 call to Frazier, Kurtz
phoned, dripping charm. I urged that if the package was to be
published, the statistician-Councilor's referee report ought to
be published instead of KZA's.

I revised my September 18, 1978, report in the promised
direction of bluntness and submitted it to Frazier on October
8,1979, telling him that if there were any alterations not
cleared with me, l wanted a note printed with the paper stating
that deletions had occurred over the author's protest and that
the missing portions could be obtained directly from me.

On the morning of October 12 Frazier was happily protecting
Skeptical Inquirer's innocent readership by blue-penciling out
all my report's revelations of KZA's fumbling (leaving intact,
of course, all its negative scientific revelations about
Gauquelin's claims, including the nonreplication [13 1/2 percent
versus the 22 percent in the French data] in the American sample
[15] ). Suddenly he came upon my request for a printed note
regarding the existence of unauthorized deletions. He lunged for
the phone and got through to me with the opening salutation,
delivered in a loud growl, tense with rage, "I am pissed off at
you." He said my note was "blackmail."

Frazier went on in this vein for some time before easing off to
mere exasperation. I reminded him that I had said a year ago
that CSICOP would publish non-neutrally-refereed BS sham over my
dead body (which is just the way it happened) in a magazine of
which I was a responsible associate editor. If Frazier insisted
on printing -- at great length -- what five of his six associate
editors privately deemed questionable science and/or intentional
pretense, l would insist just as adamantly on protesting such in
my brief paper. As the person who had actually performed the
experiment, l felt that this was perfectly reasonable.

Frazier, editor of a magazine born to tear down dumb beliefs,
said such criticism would create dissension and "confuse" the
readers. We finally left it that he would send an edited version
and see if we could agree.

Instead, as the final deadline approached, Frazier just sat on
it. l finally phoned on October 20 and left a message -- no
reply. I telephoned again two days later and was curtly informed
that the report would be published his way or not at all. He
said that Kurtz opposed publishing my report at all.

I received Frazier's edited version the next day. l phoned him
small (undisputed) changes on October 27 and 28 and on November
4, quietly but pointedly reminding him on each occasion that I
protested his substantial deletions and his bowdlerization of my
very mention of these deletions (into a version designed to
indicate to the reader that no deletions had occurred).

On November 6, two days after a last request to Frazier to
reconsider, I circulated a memo to all my fellow associate
editors:

Alone among the Councilors, l still have no compensation for
travel expenses to the last Council meeting (c $230). I have
booked a flight to this one -- the cost will be nearly $400 just
for the plane, and I have to stay 7 days (at my own expense)
just to keep the rate down to that. This must be paid in a
(very) few days -- and I won't do that unless all 630 dollars
are here beforehand.

My upcoming Skeptical Inquirer article ( l 979 winter) on the
Gauquelin matter has been neatly censored here and there, so I
have asked to add a statement saying so and suggesting that
readers who wish to consult the original version may do so by
contacting me. This sentence has itself been bowdlerized (so
that it reads as if no tampering occurred). It seems to me that
to distort the meaning of a contributor's statement over his
explicit protest, especially when he is an "Associate Editor" --
whatever that means -- is a serious matter. Therefore, I will
here ask the other members of the Skeptical Inquirer Editorial
Board whether they concur in this action ... none of this should
be published until the KZ&A [Control Test] is competently,
independently refereed. Another point I have vainly stressed to
Ken [Frazier]: there has been some faint hope of dissociating
CSICOP from this disaster. The forthcoming package seals the
matter forever: opening and closing arguments (and
pseudoscientific obfuscations of the clear outcome) coauthored
by CSICOP's Chairman and a CSICOP Fellow who is [senior] editor
of the forthcoming Scribner's book [Science and the Paranormal]
attacking everybody else's pseudoscience (full of CSICOP
contributors).

I must also say that these same two gentlemen have each
attempted privately to blame the other authors for the
adventure. They had an amusing argument on this point in my
presence 1978/12/6. Yet they now [in their upcoming articles]
have the brass to pretend to Skeptical Inquirer's readership
that there is nothing amiss. This is deliberate sham. And I
think most (if not all) of you know so or strongly suspect it.

When he read this Frazier blew his stack again and on November 9
wrote a memo declaring he had deleted only "one sentence from a
late-added footnote" (emphasis in original). False -- there were
in fact a dozen deletions.

Frazier's letter conveniently confused his right to edit (which
I never had questioned) with his right to alter the meaning of a
brief note telling the reader where to obtain the unedited
version .

*  *  *

On November 15 Randi phoned trying to find out whether I meant
my November 6 promise not to come to next month's Council
meeting in New York City unless both 1978 and 1979 fares were
paid. (After badgering from Frazier, Kurtz in early November had
sent the 1979 fare only, citing a ridiculous excuse for not
sending the 1978 fare.) I replied to Randi that if he cared (his
ostensible reason for calling) he should tell Kurtz to wire the
still-unpaid 1978 fare.

I also made an offer which, in view of all that had happened,
was about as forgiving as one could possibly be: I said that
Council would have no more trouble with sTARBABY if Skeptical
Inquirer would publish the dissents of those Councilors who knew
the truth about it -- the same suggestion made to Frazier a
month earlier in regard to publishing the statistician-
Councilor's referee report. They were not interested .

I heard nothing further. Even my November 6 note to Martin
Gardner, asking him if he planned to be at the meeting, went
unanswered.

As might be expected, at the December 15, 1979, meeting Kurtz
(who never really believed I wasn't coming) carefully held a
closed-door minipress conference that was kept a secret even
from some attending Councilors until they were in the room and
the doors were closing.

Equally surprising to some Councilors was the decision, made
that same day, to hold an "election." [16]  No prior
announcement had been made -- which violates every established
code of parliamentary procedure.

By another of our paranormal coincidences, only one person was
"not renominated" and I was replaced by Abell. It was then
decided to put off the Abell announcement for some weeks so that
there would seem to be no connection.

A comedy high is the December 21 letter I received more than 10
days after the meeting from Randi, the appointed bearer of the
tidings that I had been unanimously dumped or, as he so
delicately put it, "not reelected." Randi hoped we could
continue to be good friends. Also, since I was still on the
editorial board, he urged me to write regularly for Skeptical
Inquirer.

I thought it was curious that one who was such a horror that he
merited unanimous expulsion should at the same time be asked to
stay on as associate editor and publish lots in the CSICOP
journal.

Along the same line, I received a January 5, 1980, letter from
Abell, four solid pages of "gush" (Abell's word). I felt I was
in danger of spiritual diabetes from the syrup that had been
poured over me all through 1979. (The funniest inundation had
come from, of all people, Gardner, at Randi's behest.) The truth
is, my admiring "friends," who "reluctantly" (Randi's adverb)
voted my ejection at the December 15 meeting, had a long
argument at this very meeting trying to identify the boob
responsible for getting me onto the Council in the first place!

My reaction to ejection was not quite what Council expected. On
December 31 I wired Frazier a request that a note be printed at
the end of my upcoming Gauquelin-package article stating that
"following editorial disagreement over these articles" I had
been "unanimously ejected," which was undeniably true.

Frazier refused this (in a January 9 letter) as "inappropriate
and inaccurate in its implication of cause and effect."

Back on December 18 Frazier had written me to say that Skeptical
Inquirer Assistant Editor Doris Doyle had emphasized it was too
late to make any further changes in the Gauquelin package. Yet,
nearly a month later, on January 12, Doyle told me that even
then there was time for alterations. Consistency was hard to
come by.

So on January 14 I sent Frazier another Mailgram:

Since the mechanicals are still with Doris (who says you refused
my ["following editorial disagreement"] statement), please
replace "Further commentary ... from the author" with:
"Deletions from this paper are available from the author at his
address. This December CSICOP Council unanimously decided soon
to replace me on the Council with George Abell." If you kill one
sentence, consider the other separately. (If some particular
words or phrases bother you, have Doris phone me today regarding
my OK of possible changes.) I repeat my request for written
reasons for your censoring my attempts to make these simple
statements to Skeptical Inquirer readers.

At this point, I am not interested in promises regarding future
letters column space, since what can one make of Council's word,
after its recent clandestine "election" and customary secrecy
regarding Abell's upcoming elevation? -- Dennis Rawlins,
Associate Editor?

Frazier replied the next day by decreeing that he would allow no
more changes. Any announcement of my nonreelection to the
Council would have to be carried in Skeptical Inquirer's news
column because, he said, it was "irrelevant" in a research
report. On February 16 I took Frazier up on his offer and
prepared this statement for the news column.

I am resigning from the Skeptical Inquirer Editorial Board
(effective on SI publication of this notice) in reaction to the
Board's handling of empirical testing (when the results do not
come out as expected) as well as (among other matters) the
CSICOP Council's surprise December "election" in New York (not
even known to some attending Councilors until a fraction of a
day before it occurred) -- at which private event it was
unanimously decided that I should be "not renominated" (in
absentia) and that (after a cosmetic interval) George Abell was
to be elevated to Councilor. What this sleight of ballot switch
portends for the future scientific level and integrity of the
ruling body of CSICOP can be most quickly understood from a
careful reading of our [Abell's and my] respective contributions
(especially the pre edited versions) in the 1979-80 Winter SI.

The Council wants to make it perfectly clear that Abell's
(public) support for -- as against my long-contained (now
surfacing) criticism of -- CSICOP's conduct during its four-year
involvement in testing Gauquelin's neoastrology, has NOTHING to
do with Council's December move. SI readers who wish to believe
in this paranormal miracle of acausal synchronicity are urged
not to contact me at the below address.

Meanwhile I privately urged that the other Councilors think of
rationalism's reputation ahead of their own immediate interests
and resign.

On April 10 Frazier reneged: "The resignation letter you asked
to be published is not appropriate for publication. Such
internal matters are best dealt with by private circulation.
[17]  I feel strongly about that."

Although my letter of resignation stated that it became
effective only when published, Frazier tossed me off the
editorial board anyway -- without giving me notice or cause.
Abell was my replacement.

One other dissent has been kept from Skeptical Inquirer readers.
The identity of the mystery guest in dissent-space? George
Abell! In 1980 Abell hired UCLA grad student Albert Lee to
compute the expectation curve for the Gauquelin experiment.
According to a May 3, 1980, letter Abell wrote to Gauquelin,
Lee's results agreed with Gauquelin's and mine. Thus Abell
learned (some years too late) that 17 percent, not 22 percent,
is the chance figure after all. Poof goes the Control Test
(based upon the hope that Gauquelin's 22-percent Mars Effect
results were merely chance level in disguise).

As the truth becomes undeniable, what will CSICOP do? Perhaps as
the Smoking Letter (as well as the prospect of total exposure in
FATE) is considered, CSICOP may be heard to protest that it was
most anxious to get the truth to the public but delayed somewhat
in the interests of cautious science -- thereby explaining, of
course, things like 10-day refereeing and rushing a Challenge to
press to beat a publishing deadline.


EPILOGUE

I can sum up by noting that:

CSICOP's idea of internal scandal-preventing is not to eject the
culprits but to eject those who expose them. A Watergate analogy
would be to throw Sam Ervin out of Congress and keep Nixon as
President on his promise not-to-do-it-again.

The foregoing account was drafted between March 26 and May 15,
1980. The great bulk of it, however, was not typed until
December 1980 through January 1981 due in part to the press of
researches in nonparanormal-related areas of scholarship. I was
reminded of CSICOP in October 1980 by three incidents that
occurred together and not coincidentally:

(1) I was dropped as a CSICOP Fellow without being informed,
much less being told why in writing.

(2) I was attacked (along with Gauquelin) in the most insulting
fashion in the letters section of Fall 1980 Skeptical Inquirer
by the same Fellow whose mistakes in "Objections to Astrology"
began sTARBABY.

(3) The last October event explained Item One -- my ejection
from the full Committee. Council announced its annual meeting
and press conference for December 12, 1980, at UCLA. The
gathering was described as a closed "press seminar," only for
Fellows and invitees.

I telegraphed Kurtz on December I to suggest that the
neoastrology test be openly debated at the meeting. I received
no reply.

Therefore I simply appeared at the meeting, correctly judging
that Kurtz wouldn't risk creating a scene by having me ejected
bodily before his beloved press corps. I was privately assured
that the Gauquelin matter would be discussed at 5:00 P.M. As
insurance that it be held, I stood up during the question-and-
answer period and mentioned in passing that there would be a
5:00 P.M. hearing concerning sTARBABY and the reasons for my
ejection from CSICOP. No Councilor contradicted me.

At 5:00 Kurtz stood up and, instead of announcing the promised
discussion, adjourned the press conference.

Twice bit, thrice shy. In anticipation I had with me four pages
of XeroXed expos=8E material. After a few minutes' abortive
attempts to have Randi and others honor their promise, I simply
distributed the material to everyone in the room, including the
two or three press persons who had been sufficiently interested
in CSICOP to show up.

Phil Klass, looking unwell, rushed over to growl through
clenched jaw, "You're sick!" He said that after all this time I
should drop it, in effect using the cover-up's long success as a
justification for its perpetuation.

The Council then retired to a private meeting. Over Kurtz's
protest I just walked into the meeting. Kurtz then tried to
preannounce a five-minute limit to a Gauquelin discussion. I
never got five minutes of straight narrative. It was a free-for-
all orgy of fantasy, with Councilors interrupting so often that
they interrupted each other's interruptions.

The Council agreed there was not the slightest connection
between my unique expulsion and my equally unique insistence on
honest reporting of sTARBABY. It was just that I had behaved
rudely.

I pointed out that before Kurtz tried suppressing me, beginning
in September 1978, I was patient and gentle, a trusting chump.

My request that offenses justifying expulsion be specified
brought on the Morganisms. Kurtz could come up with only two
pre-September 1978 claims:

(1) A letter I had written on February 6, 1978, to the
University of Toronto regarding an astrology conference to be
held there the next month. Supposedly I had put pressure on the
university to cancel the meeting. I refuted this phony charge by
reading from a Xerox copy of the letter, which made it clear I
was objecting only to the grossly unbalanced composition of the
proposed panel (which certainly would have disgraced the
university); in fact I had encouraged the invitation of a broad
selection of experts on both sides, hoping for a meaningful
confrontation. Kurtz then referred to an alleged phone call I
made to the university president. The only catch is that I never
phoned the president of the University of Toronto.

(2) Then Kurtz seriously attempted to define my other
excommunicable offense as my proposal that the American
Association for the Advancement of Science reevaluate the
Parapsychological Association's affiliation with it! The other
Councilors in attendance were too astonished to comment. (Kurtz
and Frazier had themselves published this proposal in my article
in Fall-Winter 1977 Skeptical Inquirer.)

Obviously it was a hoked-up scenario. When I asked, a Councilor
admitted that kicking me off the Council had not even been
discussed until just a week before the December 1978 press
conference, where Council feared I would expose sTARBABY.
Indeed, only 10 minutes previously Council had attempted again
to suppress my public dissent at the press conference we had
just left.

There were other moments of humor. Phil Klass claimed he didn't
understand the neoastrology dispute, reviving the alibi first
heard early in 1979.1 asked then why Frazier had chosen Klass as
one of CSICOP's instant referees and why Klass had in fact
written one of the five private referee reports. Incredibly,
Klass denied having done so! I instantly produced and circulated
a Xerox copy of this nonexistent report. As it began passing
around the table, Klass said that he had recommended against
publishing the package. Those who were reading his report, dated
September 10, 1979, learned the very opposite. I knew the
refereeing had been pro forma but I wasn't prepared for such
obliging confirmation .

The bottom line is:

Every one of the Councilors who say they know something about
the sTARBABY knows that it was a disaster. Yet Skeptical
Inquirer readers are given to believe nothing went wrong.

The last word Frazier allowed to appear was a letter from
Lawrence Jerome (Fall 1980, page 85) in which CSICOP offered
congratulations to itself for its Gauquelin project.

*  *  *

Notes

[1]  CSICOP began as an offshoot of the American Humanist
assosiation. In 1978, after a year of not telling AHA anything
of the ongoing legal proceedings, CSICOP seperately
incorporated.

[2]  Bob Sheaffer, Kendrick Frazier, and Martin Gardner never
showed a passion for the limelight.

[3]  I had not begun keeping count of the number of Gauquelin-
related papers of mine Kurtz had rejected. In retrospect it is
obvious that his reason was that all of them dissented from the
KZA party line on Gauquelin. The only paper of mine Kurtz had
published was also the only one that did not discuss Gauquelin;
it was on ESP (July-August 1976 Humanist); thus in Kurtz's
Humanist this astronomer was allowed to discuss matters
psychological -- but not astronomical!

[4]  I don't even know how many Councilors saw it after
publication until questions were raised about its honesty. For
example, athough I was on the Humanist mailing list, no copy
came to my address.

[5]  The following May I was startled to see an identical attack
by Eric Tarkington in Phenomena. When I phoned Kurtz in shock at
the embarrassment of having correct analysis published in that
proastrology journal while CSICOP was publishing crap, his reply
was, "Nobody reads [Phenomena]."

[6]  KZA publicly: "Nowhere did we wish to suggest that
Gauquelin 'cheated' and we regret any such implication"
(Skeptical Inquirer, Summer 1980, page 67)

[7]  An interesting bit of history, since Kurtz still says my
nonreimbursement wasn't brought to his attention until a full
year later. And Council pretends to believe this.

[8]  That Councilors Kurtz, Randi, Philip Klass, and Lee Nisbet
conspired to keep dissent (read "schism") from sullying the
press conference was eventually admitted from the inside in a
July 6, 1979, conversation. (See also June 26 document prepared
by Randi and marked "Confidential," discussed below.)

[9]  On December 12, 1980, Abell gave a completely different
reason for not showing up at the scheduled showdown. He said he
wasn't invited!

[10]  Abell's December 12, 1980, version: he doesn't remember
now whether he read it. In 1979 Abell cosigned yet another KZA
paper which repeated the same old BS argument. Then he conseded
(privately in 1980) I'd been right all along on the math --
 leaving Kurtz and Zelen holding the sTARBABY bag. Everyday
entertainment at CSICOP!

[11]  See Jerome Clark and J. Gordon Melton's "The Crusade
Against the Paranormal," September and October 1979 FATE, for
Marcello Truzzi's account of these events.

[12]  Not true. Randi phoned me on Januari 9, 1979, the moment
he read press coverage of Wheelers proposal, trying to reignite
my interest. Sheaffer wrote me along the same lines a few days
later. Yet when Frazier published Wheller's statement (Spring
1979 Skeptical Inquirer) he did not mention that he had
published my similar proposal a few issues back!

[13]  By the Council, yes; but backed by Fellows B.F. Skinner,
W.V. Quine, Isaac Asimov, and L. Sprague de Camp; Carl Sagan and
Ken Frazier supported the request that AAAS clarify the
affiliation.

[14]  In reality Truzzi had been replaced at CSICOP's August 9,
1977, annual meeting by a prearranged conspiracy to which Randi
and I were both parties. Privately we all (except Ray Hyman, who
was not in on it) spoke freely of the fact that the real reason
was our disapproval of Marcello's softness on the mystics and
slowness to print tough skepticism. But this reality did not
look open-minded, so naturally another reason was given to the
public. (When I circulated a letter giving some of the real
reasons, Council was horrified.)

[15]  But the potential significance of the 13 1/2-percent
result, which disconfirmed the Mars Effect's 22 percent (at a
10,000-to-one level), was lost due to KZA's 1977 precedent and
subsequent obsession with post hoc sample splitting in their own
favor.

[16]  Gardner told me on November 23, 1980, that there had been
no election, just a boot (the official minutes, dated Januari 8,
do not even mention the matter), adding a week later that since
Kurtz owns the CSICOP mailing list, parliamentary rules are
"crap."

[17]  I guess that's why Frazier prevented my stating in
Skeptical Inquirer that deleted material was available from my
private address!


-----------------------
All rights reserved =A9 1981-2001 Dennis Rawlins






   UFO UpDates
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Nov > Nov 30

                      Elk Mutilation Investigor Needed

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO  <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 12:32:33 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:11:30 -0500
Subject: Elk Mutilation Investigor Needed



Hi List

More breaking news. Now if anyone on this list is a investigator
in this field, and who can get to this location quick, then I
will forward the contact information to you. But please
remember, I am only going to send one investigator to this case
as I am sure the person who found this doesn't need a large
amount of calls coming in, or emails. In other words not going
to create a zoo with tons of folks running all over the place. I
did contact NIDS, but their office is not open so I am trying to
contact others in that area. I also have pictures and again,
can't post them until my site is working fully. Jeff Rense may
post the picture I have here and sent to him. So please drop by
his site to keep an eye on this story. The witness to this tells
me he has more pictures which I will ask for.

Hello Brian. I have enjoyed your articles on Rense, and thought
perhaps you would be interested in my story, or could point me
to someone who would care to investigate.

I live about 10 miles east of Cloudcroft, New Mexico, in a rural
subdivision bordered by the Lincoln National Forest. On Nov. 28,
2003 at about 1pm I was walking my Akita Nikki in the National
Forest and came upon a dead elk laying in a shallow ravine. The
elk was no more than 200 yards from our subdivision, and perhaps
half a mile from my house. There is a substantial elk population
in the area, and sightings are not unusual. The dead elk was a
small one, the length of which from chest to rear end perhaps 4
feet, and weighing maybe 400-600 pounds. Rigor mortis was full
and complete. There was no apparent bloating. Nor was there any
evidence the elk had been gutted by a hunter, as there was no
apparent longitudinal incision on the lower abdomen/chest area.
The head had been removed, as if cut from the body right where
the neck joins the body, and the vertebrae stuck out from the
cut area about 6 inches or so, ending in a smoothly sliced
vertebrae. So far one would suspect a trophy hunter possibly who
just killed for the head to mount on their wall, eh? However, I
believe this elk to be much too small to have had any
significant antlers (maybe no antlers at all).

Now for the really interesting part. As you can see by the photo
I am sending you, the rectum of this elk has been smoothly cored
out. Further, the genitals have been removed, and there is no
obvious way to tell the sex of this animal. The removal of the
genitals could be attributable to animals perhaps (we have
mountain lions and bears, as well as coyotes) as the removal
does not appear  to have been in such a clean, surgical fashion
upon my limited observation. I will allow you to draw your own
conclusions.

You may reach me via email, or at (deleted by HBCC UFO) for any
further info I failed to give you. I will be happy to assist
further in any way, plus provide additional photos. Also, if it
will lend credence to this situation, I am a former Federal
investigator, as my wife was also. The elk is carcass is still
on site for investigation.

Brian Vike
Director
HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com