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   Dec

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Dec 2003

  Dec 1:

   UFO Images West Central Minnesota - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [42]
   Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Williams - Walt Williams [11]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [22]
   Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses - Vince White [45]
   Ufology - Ten Questions - Roy Hale [25]
   Sound Of Screaming Firmly Linked To UFO Sighting - Kenny Young [209]
   New Westminster British Columbia 11-30-03 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [36]

  Dec 2:

   Socorro - James Easton [7]

  Dec 1:

   Trindade Material - Part II - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [125]
   'Scooby-Doo And The Alien Invaders' - James Easton [11]

  Dec 2:

   Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs - - Frank Warren [26]
   Airdrie, Alberta - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [57]
   Re: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses - Boone - Greg Boone [20]
   Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Friedman - Stan Friedman [25]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Jones - Sean Jones [36]
   Vernon British Columbia - 11-30-03 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [32]
   Dusty Disc May Mean Other Earths - Charles Chapman [55]
   Scabrous Shadows And The Blue Hare - Alfred Lehmberg [163]
   Re: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses - Velez - John Velez [118]
   Soliciting Articles - Roy Hale - The Lost Haven [18]
   Didsbury Alberta 11-28-03 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [27]
   Re: Norwood Photos On-line - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [10]
   Physicist Explains String Theory - UFO UpDates - Toronto [127]
   Re: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [24]
   Re: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses - LeFevre - Charlette LeFevre [28]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [47]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Hale - Roy Hale - The Lost Haven [20]
   Re: Socorro - Gates - Robert Gates [15]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [8]
   Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Miller - Stuart Miller [9]
   Re: Socorro - Stanford - Ray Stanford [19]
   Re: Norwood Photos On-line - Stanford - Ray Stanford [15]
   Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Miller - Stuart Miller [32]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [67]
   Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs - Hall - Richard Hall [6]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Aldrich - Roy Hale - The Lost Haven [3]
   Re: 'About' Project Grudge - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [12]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 46 - John Hayes [552]
   Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Friedman - Stan Friedman [17]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Jones - Sean Jones [10]
   Re: Socorro - Hall - Richard Hall [5]
   'About' Project Grudge - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [86]
   Re: Scabrous Shadows And The Blue Hare - Roberts - Andy Roberts [6]
   Visitations In Pabos Gaspe Coast Canada - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [64]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Roberts - Andy Roberts [4]
   Re: Trindade - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [10]
   Re: sTARBABY by Dennis Rawlins - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [113]
   Secrecy News -- 12/02/03 - Steven Aftergood [185]
   Alleged Video Of Mexico City UFO? - Scott Corrales [25]
   Re: Censoring Greer & Witnesses - White - Vince White [59]

  Dec 3:

   sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - David Rudiak [106]
   Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs - - Frank Warren [10]
   Rumsfeld On The Known And Unknown - Grant Cameron [11]
   Anomaly Archives Lending Library Opens - Stephen Miles Lewis [121]
   Re: Socorro - Harney - John Harney [27]
   Re: Sequel To BBC's The New X-Files - Roberts - Andy Roberts [18]
   Re: Socorro - Ledger - Don Ledger [11]
   Re: Scabrous Shadows And The Blue Hare - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [13]
   What Happened To Those That Took A Stand - Greg Boone [14]
   New York Times On Mysterious Hums - Kenny Young [120]
   Re: Norwood Photos On-line - Young - Kenny Young [61]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Roberts - Roy Hale - The Lost Haven [4]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [2]
   Re: 'About' Project Grudge - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [20]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Jones - Roy Hale - The Lost Haven [5]
   UFO*BC Updates - 12-02-03 - David Pengilly [44]
   Re: Elk Mutilation Investigor Needed - Belzil - Fern Belzil [6]
   Re: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses - Gates - Robert Gates [52]
   UFO/Screaming Woman Incident Continues - Kenny Young [143]
   Creston British Columbia Missing Time - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [64]
   Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Scherk - William Scott Scherk
   [43]
   Re: Trindade - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [27]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Hale - Roy Hale - The Lost Haven [4]

  Dec 4:

   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Shell - Tim Shell [59]
   Best Cases Of The 90's or 2000's? - Minna Hyvonen [11]
   Re: Congress and Disclosure - White - Vince White [43]
   Re: Rumsfeld On The Known And Unknown - Shough - Martin Shough [4]
   Re: Anomaly Archives Lending Library Opens - - Mac Tonnies [5]
   Last Call For UFO Debate - Nick Pope [18]
   Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Morton - Dave Morton [17]
   Re: Rumsfeld On The Known And Unknown - Rudiak - David Rudiak [8]
   Re: 'About' Project Grudge - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [7]
   Re: Norwood Photos On-line - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [18]
   'Bizarre Screams' Update - 12-04-03 - Kenny Young [83]
   Filer's Files #49 - 2003 - George A. Filer [535]
   Re: What Happened To Those That Took A Stand - - Alfred Lehmberg [22]
   Unusual Marks On Israeli Investigator - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [49]
   St-Polycarp Valleyfield Quebec - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [33]
   Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Scott Corrales [42]
   Study Finds Crop Circles Were Not a Hoax - Frank Warren [40]
   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO
   [15]
   Re: sTARBABY by Dennis Rawlins - Decker - Ron Decker [15]
   Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [76]
   What Thinks About Thought Itself? - Alfred Lehmberg [31]
   SciFi Supports UFO Investigative Effort - Steven Kaeser [56]
   Trindade Material - Part III - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [294]
   Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs - - Frank Warren [51]
   SciFi Channel presents Rendlesham Special - Steven Kaeser [60]
   Bush To Announce US Return To Moon - William Wise [156]

  Dec 5:

   Re: Congress and Disclosure - Hall - Richard Hall [18]
   Secrecy News -- 12/04/03 - Steven Aftergood [128]
   Vernon British Columbia - 12-03-03 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [33]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Jones - Sean Jones [26]
   Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs - - Stanton Friedman [13]
   Re: SciFi Channel presents Rendlesham Special - - Terry Groff [3]
   Re: Congress and Disclosure - Gates - Robert Gates [69]
   New Norwood Photos! - Kenny Young [30]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Hall - Richard Hall [4]
   Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Hall - Richard Hall [9]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Shell - Tim Shell [20]
   Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Alfred Lehmberg [36]
   'Strange Secrets' - Stuart Miller [34]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Miller - Stuart Miller [6]
   Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs - - Don Ledger [5]
   Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista
   UFO [11]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - - Alfred Lehmberg [14]
   Re: Congress and Disclosure - Hall - Richard Hall [17]
   Budd Hopkins' Annual Holiday Art Party Postponed - Ifinfo1@aol.com [58]
   Re: SciFi Channel presents Rendlesham Special - - Steven Kaeser [18]
   Re: Congress and Disclosure - White - Vince White [46]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Connors - Wendy Connors [8]
   Re: Best Cases Of The 90's or 2000's? - Wilson - Katharina Wilson [7]
   Re: Study Finds Crop Circles Were Not a Hoax - - Amy Hebert [28]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Redfern - Nick Redfern [20]

  Dec 6:

   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Roberts - Andy Roberts [17]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Roberts - Andy Roberts [24]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Roberts - Andy Roberts [9]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Shell - Tim Shell [30]
   Re: SciFi Channel presents Rendlesham Special - - Terry Groff [10]
   Re: Congress and Disclosure - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [10]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Miller - Stuart Miller [17]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Boone - Greg Boone [22]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Miller - Stuart Miller [6]
   Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs - - Frank Warren [4]
   Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs - - Frank Warren [4]
   Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Rudiak - David Rudiak [108]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - - Ray Dickenson [11]
   Des Rivieres and Duberger Park Quebec - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [25]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - McCoy - GT McCoy [17]
   There's A Hole In My Philosophy - Frank Warren [126]
   PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - 12-07-03 - Stephen Bassett [451]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [48]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - White - Eleanor White [7]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [66]
   Re: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003 - - John Velez [65]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Boone - Greg Boone [21]
   Re: Congress and Disclosure - Fleming - Lan Fleming [19]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
   [46]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Lewis - Stephen MILES Lewis [102]

  Dec 7:

   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas
   [2]
   Re: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003 - - Steven Bassett [3]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Boone - Greg Boone [55]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Shell - Tim Shell [22]
   Drake Equation Naeye Sayer - UFO UpDates - Toronto [65]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Roberts - Andy Roberts [9]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Roberts - Andy Roberts [33]
   Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Harney - John Harney [37]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Miller - Stuart Miller [35]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - - Alfred Lehmberg [24]
   "Professional Skeptics Group Proves UFOs Real!" - Grant Cameron [227]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Redfern - Nick Redfern [47]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Miller - Stuart Miller [51]
   Re: There's A Hole In My Philosophy - Warren - Frank Warren [18]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Jones - Sean Jones [18]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Burns - Chris Burns [8]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Chapman - Charles Chapman [19]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Belzil - Fern Belzil [6]
   Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Scherk - William Scott Scherk
   [22]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Jones - Sean Jones [13]
   Re: Maussan Ufologist Makes Prediction For - Robert Gates [60]
   Re: PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - 12-07-03 - McCoy - GT McCoy [30]
   Maussan Makes Prediction - Not! - John Velez [80]
   Diario de Yucatan Retracts Maussan Story - Scott Corrales [65]
   Presidential UFO's Top Story Of 2003 - Grant Cameron [13]
   Re: Congress and Disclosure - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [13]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Roberts - Andy Roberts [14]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - - Josh Goldstein [50]
   Russian Crash Retrieval Report - Albert Rosales [92]
   Re: Soliciting Articles - Mackay - Glennys Mackay [25]

  Dec 8:

   Re: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003 - - Richard Hall [7]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Boone - Greg Boone [38]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Roberts - Andy Roberts [18]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction - Not! - Boone - Greg Boone [17]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Roberts - Andy Roberts [44]
   Re: Diario de Yucatan Retracts Maussan Story - - Wendy Connors [10]
   In Light Of The Morehead Incident - Darrell Holtz [44]
   Re: Drake Equation Naeye Sayer - Ward - Steven Ward [16]
   Re: Presidential UFO's Top Story Of 2003 - White - Eleanor White [18]
   Re: Drake Equation Naeye Sayer - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [24]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [134]
   Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Clark - Jerome Clark [41]
   SDI #269 Sunday Morning After! - Alfred Lehmberg [80]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - - Ray Stanford [11]

  Dec 9:

   Secret KGB UFO Files - Thierry Jonnaert [5]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Roberts - Tim Shell [22]
   Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs - - Don Ledger [14]
   Stan Romanek And December 12th - Robert Gates [41]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Myers - Royce J. Myers III
   [75]
   Morehead Kentucky Field Investigation - Kenny Young [118]
   Re: Vernon British Columbia - 11-30-03 - Frison - Eugene Frison [41]
   Sci Fi Channel-Backed Researcher Sues NASA - Stan Friedman [81]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [34]
   1733 - The First Known Sighting? - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [8]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [47]
   Re: Congress and Disclosure - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [35]
   Re: There's A Hole In My Philosophy - Fleming - Lan Fleming [11]
   Re: In Light Of The Morehead Incident - Shell - Tim Shell [6]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Roberts - Andy Roberts [21]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [24]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Miller - Stuart Miller [36]
   Asking Jesus For Internvention Stops Abductions - Eleanor White [84]
   Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [15]
   Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [42]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - - Bruce Maccabee [1]
   Re: Carlos Diaz? - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [6]
   Re: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Scherk - William Scott
   Scherk [40]
   CFI FOIA Suit Filed Against NASA - Steven Kaeser [77]
   Re: PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - 12-07-03 - - Bruce Maccabee [40]
   Re: There's A Hole In My Philosophy - Fleming - Lan Fleming [11]
   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Fleming - Lan Fleming [10]
   Re: Drake Equation Naeye Sayer - Fleming - Lan Fleming [8]
   Re: Congress and Disclosure - Knize - Francis Knize [58]
   Re: There's A Hole In My Philosophy - Warren - Frank Warren [12]
   Re: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003 - - John Velez [61]
   Re: Secrecy News -- 12/09/03 - Aftergood - Steven Aftergood [134]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Shell - Tim Shell [13]
   Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Clark - Jerome Clark [51]
   Re: 1733 - The First Known Sighting? - Stanford - Ray Stanford [9]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Internvention Stops - Greg Boone [19]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Velez - John Velez [38]
   Lobbyists, Importance And The Great Divide - Greg Boone [37]

  Dec 10:

   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [73]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Conway - Richard Conway [14]
   Re: Drake Equation Naeye Sayer - Shell - Tim Shell [14]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Internvention Stops - Tim Shell [13]
   Re: There's A Hole In My Philosophy - Hall - Richard Hall [8]
   UFOs Inter-Dimensional - John Pursel [26]
   Re: PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - 12-07-03 - - Wendy Connors [5]
   Re: 1733 - The First Known Sighting? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [5]
   Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Rudiak - David Rudiak [240]
   Re: 1733 - The First Known Sighting? - Ledger - Don Ledger [5]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Myers - Royce J. Myers III
   [99]
   Re: 1733 - The First Known Sighting? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [6]
   Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case! - Marcos Malvezzi Leal
   [20]
   Re: Secret KGB UFO Files - Dubrovin - Sergej Dubrovin [8]
   Re: 1733 - The First Known Sighting? - Patounas - Eustaquio Andrea
   Patounas [5]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions - John Velez [40]
   Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [41]

  Dec 11:

   Re: 1733 - The First Known Sighting? - Haith - Dave Haith [29]
   NASA Faces Lawsuit In Kecksburg UFO Incident - Eustaquio Andrea
   Patounas [13]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Miller - Stuart Miller [80]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Roberts - Andy Roberts [20]
   Re: UFOs Inter-Dimensional - Shell - Tim Shell [23]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions - Tim Shell [32]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Roberts - Andy Roberts [58]
   Filer's Files #50 - 2003 - George A. Filer [524]
   Pravda - 09-00 To 06-01 US Fighters Scrambled 67 - Frank Warren [120]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions - Greg Boone [5]
   Re: There's A Hole In My Philosophy - Stanford - Ray Stanford [80]
   NASA Spacecraft To Explore Jupiter Moons - Frank Warren [56]
   Colorful Geminid Meteor Shower Comes This Weekend - Frank Warren [57]
   Re: Secret KGB UFO Files - Martinho - Jeferson Martinho [26]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Velez - John Velez [40]
   Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs - - Frank Warren [63]
   Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs - - Frank Warren [62]
   Re: UFOs Inter-Dimensional - Wilson - Katharina Wilson [36]
   Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Harney - John Harney [50]
   Researcher Reports More Sightings - 12-10-03 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   [95]
   Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [39]
   Re: Drake Equation Naeye Sayer - Hatch - Larry Hatch [9]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions - Jim Speiser [51]
   Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case! - - Ken Kelly [5]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions - Bill Weber [9]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Lewis - SMiles Lewis [22]
   Reports From HBCC UFO - 12-10-03 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [89]
   Re: Congress and Disclosure - Fleming - Lan Fleming [53]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [46]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Internvention Stops - Katharina Wilson [18]
   Re: NASA Faces Lawsuit In Kecksburg UFO Incident - - John Velez [25]
   BUFOSC 7th Conference Video - Eric Morris [31]
   Alien Abductee Stress - William Scott Scherk [71]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Roberts - Wendy Connors [19]
   Re: NASA Spacecraft To Explore Jupiter Moons - - GT McCoy [5]
   Who's Keeping Tabs On 'Mars Jam 2004'? - Greg Boone [12]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Alfred Lehmberg [126]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Boone - Greg Boone [34]
   Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case! - - A. J. Gevaerd -
   Revista UFO [5]

  Dec 12:

   Secrecy News -- 12/11/03 - Steven Aftergood [158]
   Re: UFOs Inter-Dimensional - Pursel - John Pursel [27]
   Re: Who's Keeping Tabs On 'Mars Jam 2004'? - - Mac Tonnies [14]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions - John Velez [22]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Shell - Tim Shell [15]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Roberts - Andy Roberts [15]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Roberts - Andy Roberts [22]
   Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case! - - Richard Hall [9]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions - John Rimmer [15]
   Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Roberts - Andy Roberts [32]
   BBC Timewatch - Andy Roberts [28]
   Re: Who's Keeping Tabs On 'Mars Jam 2004'? - Hand - William Hand [76]
   Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Shough - Martin Shough [12]
   Re: Alien Abductee Stress - Velez - John Velez [11]
   Re: Alien Abductee Stress - Morton - Dave Morton [12]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [32]
   Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case! - - Ken Kelly [4]
   Re: Pravda - 09-00 To 06-01 US Fighters Scrambled - Stephen MILES Lewis
   [50]
   Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Gates - Robert Gates [7]
   UFO Buffs Sue To Obtain Data On Pa. Fireball - Eustaquio Andrea
   Patounas [46]
   Re: 1733 - The First Known Sighting? - Manson - Rosa Manson [19]
   Re: Vernon British Columbia - 11-30-03 - Frison - Gene Frison [240]
   VSD UFO Magazine Special #6 - Jan Aldrich [86]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions - Brenda Denzler [8]
   Ufology In Mysticism - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas [176]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions - Greg Boone [20]
   The UFO Evidence II - Richard Hall [12]
   Re: UFOs Inter-Dimensional - Shell - Tim Shell [18]
   Re: Who's Keeping Tabs On 'Mars Jam 2004'? - Boone - Greg Boone [12]

  Dec 13:

   Denzler Abductee Survey? [was: Re: Asking Jesus - John Velez [6]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Connors - Wendy Connors [52]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions - Richard Hall [24]
   Re: Congress and Disclosure - Knize - Francis Knize [40]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Franz - Captain Alejandro
   Franz [52]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions - John Velez [128]
   Andy Roberts Controlling E-mails - Alfred Lehmberg [82]
   Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case! - - A. J. Gevaerd -
   Revista UFO [7]
   NORAD Drill To Run Saturday Through Tuesday - Frank Warren [13]
   Re: Denzler Abductee Survey? - Denzler - Brenda Denzler [58]
   Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Clark - Jerome Clark [42]
   Radiation Mars Mission's Invisible Enemy - Terry W. Colvin [174]
   Re: Denzler Abductee Survey? - Boone - Greg Boone [15]

  Dec 14:

   Alfred's Odd Ode #383 [Ode to Andy Roberts] - Alfred Lehmberg [205]
   Re: Drake Equation Naeye Sayer - Cohen - Jerry Cohen [52]
   Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Rudiak - David Rudiak [27]
   Re: Abduction Statistics - Velez - John Velez [50]
   Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Harney - John Harney [21]
   Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case! - - Larry Hatch [14]
   1929 UFO Photo? - Lan Fleming [17]
   Re: Alien Abductee Stress - Scherk - William Scott Scherk [81]
   UFO Experience/Omega Communications - Chris Burns [6]
   Why Psychiatry Won't Help - Greg Boone [18]
   Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case! - - Ray Stanford [5]
   Re: Denzler Abduuctee Survey? - Velez - John Velez [55]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions - Greg Boone [5]
   Bill Moore Sells Off? - Grant Cameron [8]

  Dec 15:

   Kecksburg FOIA Request To US Army - Larry W. Bryant [39]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions - Tim Shell [60]
   Re: 1929 UFO Photo? - Hall - Richard Hall [5]
   Re: Denzler Abduuctee Survey? - Speiser - Jim Speiser [7]
   Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions - Reed Hall [25]
   Re: 1929 UFO Photo? - Larry Hatch [18]
   Inter-World Life Transport Argued - William Scott Scherk [49]
   Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Shough - Martin Shough [21]
   Re: Bill Moore Sells Off? - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [9]

  Dec 16:

   Re: Alien Abductee Stress - Morton - Dave Morton [88]
   Re: Abduction Statistics - Hall - Richard Hall [37]
   'Disclosure' Witness? - Stuart Miller [15]
   Re: World UFO Link & Ad Page - Hale - Roy Hale - The Lost Haven [23]
   Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [24]
   Secrecy News -- 12/15/03 - Steven Aftergood [174]
   Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Velez - John Velez [40]
   Re: Denzler Abduuctee Survey? - Velez - John Velez [19]
   Re: 1929 UFO Photo? - Shell - Tim Shell [12]
   MUFON Canada Symposium Announcement - Eugene Frison [36]
   Re: 1929 UFO Photo? - Stanford - Ray Stanford [59]
   CCCRN News: Midale: A Study in Crop Circle - Paul Anderson [28]
   Re: Malaysian Villagers Claim UFO Sighting - - Eustaquio Andrea
   Patounas [26]
   Re: BBC Timewatch - Ledger - Don Ledger [10]
   Fireballs In The Sky - Frank Warren [39]
   Re: Bill Moore Sells Off? - Bott - Murray Bott [25]
   A Result Of Throwing Rocks In The Dragons Cave - Alfred Lehmberg [60]
   Re: Abduction Statistics - Hall - Alfred Lehmberg [15]





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   Dec > Dec 1

                      UFO Images West Central Minnesota

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:45:49 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:18:10 -0500
Subject: UFO Images West Central Minnesota



Howdy List

Just in tonight, a very interesting report and photo, also the
witness is going to have the other witnesses write up reports on
what they saw. So this is great to have different people giving
their thoughts on what was witnessed tonight.

Report below gang, but since my site is being re-done the
pictures will not be posted for a bit. So you can view the
pictures at Jeff rense's website at:


http://www.rense.com/general45/pht.htm

-----

Hi Brian:

They are back BIG time!

6pm Saturday November 29, 2003.

West Central Minnesota

Five witnesses.

I only got one really good picture. I have a bunch of other
shots but they are not as good.

I saw bright flash in western sky. HUGE bright light. Then it
ZIPS to a southeast position. Sits there.

I yelled for (hubby) and then for the boys who were having band
practice. The object had by then moved to a southwest position
and just sat there. Multiple lights flashing and appeared to be
changing in shape. I will have each of them write up a separate
statement.

The object then SINKS on the horizon VERY SLOWLY. As if to land?
This lasted a good total of 20 minutes as of us able to view it.
AND it was HUGE. Biggest I have ever seen for the distance.

Hubby had to leave and the boys were a little shell shot. They
just couldn't believe what they saw. I continued to watch and a
JET came in or at least it sounded like one and I grabbed my
camera and keys and went to my car to pursue it.

By the time I got down to the lake I no longer could see it or
the jet. But it was HUGE!!!!

I will send their statements later. They went off to a friends'
house.

-----

Brian Vike

Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com






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   Dec > Dec 1

                     Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Williams

From: Walt Williams <walt_williams@setv.org>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:10:42 -0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:20:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Williams


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:59:17 EST
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Subject: Re: Seti@Home Effective?

>I've always wondered about this SETI project.

>Searching for radio signals?

>What if aliens don't have ears? :)

Hi Greg and All,

SETI or rather the people who are implementing the SETI search
model are not searching for radio signals with modulation, such
as "sounds". Additionally, you have the direction of the "radio"
signals confused, SETI is not transmitting, just "listening".
 Finally, the hoped for SETI signal's "message" is the frequency
of the ETI transmitted signal, which is known loosely within the
SETI community as the "water-hole" frequencies. Regarding the
effectiveness of seti@home, who knows?


Walt Williams
SETV







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   Dec > Dec 1

                   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:14:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:24:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 19:07:54 +0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:52:18 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 09:41:22 -0600
>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>>What "previous hoaxing"? Are you again conflating "trick
>>>photography" with "hoaxing"? Let us be sure we have a
>>>nonpropagandistic definition of hoax, so let's go to the
>>>dictionary:

>>>"Hoax. An act intended to trick or dupe: IMPOSTURE. 2. Something
>>>accepted or established by fraud or fabrication."
>>>Have you any evidence that in his previous history Barauna was
>>>known to try to "trick or dupe" people via "fraud"? That he
>>>tried to get people to accept what he'd created using trick
>>>photography as somehow authentic? That is certainly not my
>>>understanding of what he was doing. Quite the contrary.
>>>Again: trick photography and hoaxing are _not_ synonymous.
>>>Overwhelmingly, trick photographers are _not_ hoaxers.

>>My use of the word was indeed inaproppriated. I could ask for
>>your mercy here of shooting me with an English dictionary
>>because of my acknowledged bad English, but it would be an
>>unfair alibi that I would always refer to if I made any mistake.
>>So I just recognize and apologize for my error.

>I don't thing Kentaro has anything to apologise about here.
>_Jerry's_ dictionary seems rather contentious in its definition
>of "hoax", suggesting almost criminality. Mine (The Concise
>Oxford Dictionary) gives as part of its definition "Humorous or
>mischevious deception", which I think may well fit Barauna's
>situation.


What duplicitous pap is this? My Webster's defines it plainly
as: an act to trick or dupe or something accepted or established
by fraud... you're to be chastised for putting a good face on
it, and Andy Roberts should be prosecuted (or at least censured)
for perpetrating them. "Experiment," indeed! It's a lie by any
other name!

They are a _clear_ disturbance of the peace and urinate in the
water we're all trying to swim in. They're not funny,
productive, marginally useful, or appreciated. I revile the
hoaxer (at _any_ station) as a sociopath beneath my concern,
consideration, and contempt.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Dec > Dec 1

                       Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses

From: Vince White <Vinceomni@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:19:45 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:27:48 -0500
Subject: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses


Listers;

There has been a long and vehement criticism of the DISCLOSURE
PROJECT press conference for daring to mention such topics as;
operational gravity control, zero point energy, space-based SDI,
and deep conspiracies relating to a massive coverup.

Dr. Greer is excoriated for this "political baggage" being
affixed to pure UFO disclosure. There is no such purity
possible.

Mentioning these subjects is supposed  to have frightened
Congress out of open hearings. If true a sad commentary on the
level of legislative moral courage present - and prospects for
vigorous inquiry.

Those objecting to these additional subjects are basically
asking for censorship of  witness testimony. When a witness
couples UFO crash retrievals to back engineering of alien
reproduction vehicles, should the witness be stopped at that
point?

If government possession of alien derived zero  point energy
devices is an integral part of coverup motives, shall we censor
witnesses, or intel sources carefully developed, who say these
things?

If  a witness speaks of UFOs being targeted by our space based
SDI assets, censor this risky reality?

Congressional hearings will have to tackle a full tough range of
issues related to UFO activity. Witnesses will speak of;  planes
lost, crash/retrievals, liaison possibilities, and yes
abductions. What kind of example do we set by asking for
censoring of Dr. Greers efforts?

I have deep doubts concerning Dr. Greer's sources accuracy
regarding abductions & cattle mutilations. He appears to be even
the victim of disinformation on these issues.

But let  it all be publicly tabled; the good, the bad and the
ugly, so we can examine in the full sunshine, how all of this
hidden morass is interconnected. Hearings MUST be open ended, to
even  begin address this massive coverup - -largest in history.

We can't begin by censoring possible secondary issues which
became primary in maintaining the wall  of secrecy.

Dr. Greer has made many mistakes - but he, with flaws, made
history with  his uncensored press conference. Let his
detractors do a _better_ one. Let  them develop and screen
better witnesses. But hopefully the next new disclosure group
will not begin by censoring it's witnesses. Let the table be
wide indeed, as the UFO subject in awesome reality is. Let the
sun shine on open press conferences and open ended hearings.


Vince White








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   Dec > Dec 1

                           Ufology - Ten Questions

From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:23:15 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:31:02 -0500
Subject: Ufology - Ten Questions


All,


1: If after many years in Ufology, you arrive at the fact, that
ET has arrived here on this planet, should you be considered
someone who has a 'Closed Mind'?

2: If yes to the above, does this mean that the choice of being
a sceptic is the only one available to UFO research?

3: If you believe ET has arrived, does this make you less of a
person to debate with?

4: How closely should UFO researchers align themselves with
Government agencies?

5: Should censorship play an important role in closing debates,
if answers are not forthcoming?

6: Is UFO research a  subject for _free_ thinkers, or is there a
line to toe?

7: Who patented UFO thought as non-ET related?

8: How far should one use, web stats tracking as evidence of
inquiry?

9: How far should personal prejudice play a role in your UFO
research? 1

10: Should any researcher, be treated  as an unreliable
candidate for UFO research DATA if they have used illegal drugs
- past or present?


Roy

Visit The Lost Haven
http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk








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   Dec > Dec 1

              Sound Of Screaming Firmly Linked To UFO Sighting

From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 21:39:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:43:24 -0500
Subject: Sound Of Screaming Firmly Linked To UFO Sighting


SUBJECT: Screaming sounds firmly linked to UFO sighting
LOCATION: Morehead, Kentucky (Rowan County)
DATE: Friday, November 21, 2003
TIME: Between 9 and 10:00 p.m.

SUMMARY

In effort to further explore the report of 'unidentified lights'
and screaming sounds alleged in Morehead, Kentucky, an internet
search was conducted to retrieve the address and phone numbers
of residents of Adams Lane (law officer earlier contacted had
advised of the search taking place near this location).

After a "reverse lookup" was conducted at the internet resource:

http://www.theultimates.com

one residency was identified on Adams Lane in Morehead,
Kentucky.

That number was called around 6:30 p.m. this evening (Sunday,
November 30, 2003) and I inquired if anyone could help me with
information about the report of screaming sounds heard around
one week earlier.

The call was received by Dr. Virgil Davis, a U.K. college
professor.

"I was here when the screams were heard," he said. "There were
some loud, blood-curdling screams but nobody could find out
anything more."

I then asked if Dr. Davis knew anything about any UFO sighting
and he said: "Yes, I saw it."

Dr. Davis said that he was driving toward his home on Friday,
November 21 between 9 and 10:00 p.m. with his 2 sons, 15 and 18-
years old (He recalls the specific date, knowing that one son is
in college and would not have been home any day except Friday).

While driving, they all spotted a soundless aerial object over a
nearby open field that was described as an oval-shaped, white-
colored light source as big as a pea held at arms length which
moved 'like a hummingbird would move.'

The object, seen in the dark and clear night skies, was
relatively high when first seen and was "coming down, moving in
increments as if an elevator would drop and stay there awhile,
then drop and stay there awhile," Dr. Davis said.

After the first 3 or 4 minutes of visual observation, the object
began moving around to different parts of the sky. They got out
of car to see if they could identify this object and verified to
their satisfaction that the object was not a plane, helicopter
or aurora borealis.

"My first inclination was to rationalize what this object could
have been," Dr. Davis said. "rather than jumping to conclusions.
After we ruled out the various possible explanations we assumed
that this was a UFO."

"I know for a fact that there was no explanation for this object
and I'm just glad I had my two sons with me to see it," he said.

After observing this object for a few minutes, Dr. Davis and his
2 sons got back in the car and drove on to their home under a
certain sense of apprehension.

"I would say that our feeling was more a sense of apprehension
than fear," he said, "I did not know what it was we were looking
at and had some concern that it might or could have spotted us."

After driving the short distance to their house, they went to a
second floor bedroom and looked out the window to the northwest
where they continued to watch the object. It descended lower
toward the ground and seemed to be settling in a nearby field
where its color had shifted from a white to an orange. As the
object got lower and lower to the ground, it became bigger and
its color changed to a reddish light.

He said that the size of the object increased from a pea at arms
length to a dime at arms length, stressing that its size, from
his perspective, was "not quite as drastic as a nickel at arms
length."

"There was like a vacuum of silence while we watched this," Dr.
Davis said, "it was like everything was real quiet, at a
standstill and then when it became a red color, everything went
crazy."

Dr. Davis said that animals in the area suddenly erupted in a
frenzy. His neighbors dog was barking crazily and his German
Shepherd dog tried to break its chain.

From his perspective, the object descended to the ground but
was not certain that it touched or made contact with the ground
as trees prevented him from seeing this with certainty.

"At that point, after this object got red, it just "shot off"
like a dart, some kind of acceleration and it just took off to
the West. We just stood there dumbfounded."

He said the sighting lasted for an estimated 10 to 15 minute
duration.

"I was very reluctant to call the police about a UFO sighting,"
he said, "at that point, we were not going to report this."

"Right after that my 2-sons went back outside and heard the
screaming. It was a female voice. They got in the car and within
minutes had called from their cell phone to say that they had
been hearing screaming sounds in the field where this thing came
down," he said.

"Approximately 20-minutes after the UFO sighting the police were
at my door, there were about 20 officers and a rescue squad over
in the field where I spotted the UFO. They were combing the area
and had asked me what I knew about someone screaming."

"Apparently, others had heard the screaming sounds."

I asked Dr. Davis if he could explain what was heard and he
emphasized that he did not hear the screaming sounds himself,
that his 2 sons heard the disturbing commotion, along with other
residents in the area that notified law enforcement.

Dr. Davis paused from our conversation to check with one of his
sons, asking if he could recount the nature of the screaming
sounds. He said it was a desperate, blood curdling scream of a
female voice that kept saying: "Help me, oh my God, help me!"

"Apparently several people had heard the screaming, I don't know
how long it lasted," he said.

When the police arrived at his doorstep knocking on his door (an
estimated 15 minutes after the UFO departed), Dr. Davis
volunteered information about the UFO sighting.

"I took the officer to the side and explained to him that this
is going to sound crazy, but I need to tell you what I saw
tonight."

"I told the police about the UFO after they came to the door, I
don't know if anyone else saw the UFO but the officer taking my
report took me seriously. He didn't write anything down while I
talked with him," Dr. Davis said.

When asked if the police officer indicated that anyone else had
also witnessed the UFO, Dr. Davis said that the police officer
said he had seen a UFO also, but was uncertain if he was
referring to the same object or a separate, unrelated sighting.

Dr. Davis said that aside from reporting this to the police
officer who knocked on his door, he had not reported this
sighting to any other person and that he was not the source for
the report which was submitted to The National UFO Reporting
Center. He was puzzled how the report made it to NUFORC and said
that neither he, nor his sons, reported the sighting to anyone.

"I'm still trying to figure out who reported this," Dr. Davis
said after our conversation. He went on to say how he got
"freaked out" when the cops came to the door asking about the
screaming sounds.

He described the area of his residence as isolated and
surrounded by fields and woodland. His road is paved. He
emphasized that the screaming sounds came from the immediate
area where the unidentified object had came to the ground. "The
screaming sounds came from the field, and I have no explanation
for it."

Dr. Davis, who teaches psychology for the Ashland, Kentucky
Community College branch of the University of Kentucky, also
said that he had previously seen a UFO when he was in his
Freshman year in college at Morehead State University in 1976.
He said the object was similar to what he saw on Friday,
November 21, 2003.

COMMENT

I am deeply impressed by Dr. Davis and his efforts to remain
objective and rationalize various explanations about the
sighting. Based on his observation, the object in question is
nothing to do with Aurora Borealis or 'northern lights.'  Dr.
Davis allowed permission to use his name and employment in this
report, having no objection to it attached with the UFO sighting
and situation involving a search party near his home.

Information furnished by Dr. Davis sheds new light on this case.
Comments from him directly contradict the dismissive approach
taken by law officers in remarks made during earlier inquiries
(who also incorrectly advised that the event was on Sunday,
November 23) regarding a UFO situation that corresponds with the
screams.

When informed that a Morehead policeman and a fire rescue
officer told me that "someone had seen the northern lights," Dr.
Davis scoffed at the suggestion and was in disbelief.

"I can't believe they said that... this was definitely not the
northern lights."

He said that tomorrow he will inspect the 50-acre field where
the object descended.

The report to N.U.F.O.R.C. suggests that the UFO was also
sighted by witnesses with the rescue squad responding to the
scene. This might suggest that the screaming sound was heard
simultaneous to the visual sighting of the UFO. Peter Davenport
of N.U.F.O.R.C. states: "The person who submitted the sighting
report for Morehead, KY, provided no personal or contact
information, to include no e-address.  It "reads" as if it was
submitted by a member of the team that was dispatched, i.e. it
reads as if someone just copied a written record of the
dispatch.  I would have responded to the report, save for the
absence of any means of contacting the source."

That report states:


"Morehead-Rowan Co. Rescue Sq.had a call from MPD of a female
crying for help x3. From 2 witness then there was a bright light
in the sky for about 1 min. RESCUE SQ.arrived on scene and
started searching the area 1st & 2nd witness reported seeing
this. The fire dept. was ask to begin searching with the thermal
imaging camera with no results found. Res. of Morehead was one
of the witnesses. Unless there is a confirmed report of a
missing person, the search will not be continued."


The report of desperate, blood curdling screams from a woman
crying "Help me, Oh God, Help me" mar this case with a
disturbing sense of unusual dread. Clearly, there was a problem
taking place and this report raises the specter of reported
UFO/human abduction or interaction.

Morehead, Kentucky is an estimated 45-miles south of
Flemingsburg, Kentucky, where a crop formation appeared in a Rye
Field in the spring of this year. A flap of crop formations and
UFO sightings also bewildered Southern Ohio in the summer of
2003, and during this flap one strange account of a woman found
in a Southern Ohio soybean field is under investigative
consideration. There is no certainty that this situation can be
linked to the UFO or crop circle flap aside from the
chronological and regional closeness, but the woman - who was
hospitalized for a week after being found by a farmer -
 reportedly experienced amnesia and did not know how she got in
the field. This matter is also held under close consideration by
researcher Donnie Blessing and will be pursued further.

This present case of 'screaming sounds' from a female voice is
linked firmly to the UFO sighting as per the same location in
one specific field near Adams Lane in Morehead, Kentucky and the
'20 minute time frame' of the conclusion of the UFO sighting to
the arrival of officers involved in the search and rescue
operation.


Special thanks to Donnie Blessing, Peter Davenport

Filed,
November 30, 2003

Kenny Young

--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo







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                  New Westminster British Columbia 11-30-03

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:40:41 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:46:26 -0500
Subject: New Westminster British Columbia 11-30-03



New Westminster, British Columbia

Date: November 30, 2003
Time: approx: 4:30 p.m.

I live in New Westminster (deleted by HBCC UFO) Street. Just
about 20 mins ago at approx 4.30 P.M. I saw what I thought was a
streak across the lower part of the sky probably close to
Richmond. I thought at first it was airplane, you know when
they streak across the sky with the sun somewhere in the
background lower on the horizon. It had a fairly long trail,
that's what caught my attention. It was orange and white across
the full length of it.

It moved across the sky from left to right and was very bright
against the soon to be setting sun. But there was still enough
light out to make out all details, as the sun was full in the
sky. When I headed out onto my balcony to get a closer look
rather than through my bedroom window, the thing reversed and
started going from right to left. Still not too concerned about
what I saw although a little bizarre, I continued to watch it
move to the left. Suddenly the streak of what I thought was
vapors, it just suddenly disappeared within about 1.5 seconds,
and it all came together as one. That was unusually. The vapors
don't just dissipate within 1.5 seconds. Then I saw an object in
the sky again and it was rather small. Then I thought for a
moment there were two, close together. At this moment I grabbed
my cell phone and made a call to a friend to tell him what I was
seeing. The reversal was wired (from going left to right then
right to left and the disappearing vapors, that was weird.


Thank you to the witness for their report.

Brian Vike

Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com







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   Dec > Dec 1

                         Trindade Material - Part II

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 07:53:18 -0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:01:43 -0500
Subject: Trindade Material - Part II



Dear Folks:

Again, as promised earlier, I am posting some more material
published by Brazilian UFO researchers about the Trindade Island
case - below. It was kindly, professionally, translated by the
Translation Co-ordinator of the Brazilian UFO Magazine, Marcos
Malvezzi Leal, and his sister, Martha Malvezzi Leal.

This time it is Alexandre de Carvalho Borges' article published
at the magazine. He is a system analyser from Salvador, Bahia,
who is presently preparing a dossie about the case. He has gone
deep into the info and will have his material concluded at any
time both in Portuguese and in English.

A. J. Gevaerd

---------------

The Controversial Trindade Island Incident

Alexandre de Carvalho Borges

The photographs of a UFO over Trindade Island, on January 16,
1958, are considered a landmark in Ufology worldwide and a very
strong evidence of extraterrestrial life existence. However,
they still arouse controversy and new criticism. Actually, the
criticism is old and was raised at the time of the incident, but
it was renewed based on presumed new studies. In national and
international debates two particular critiques were raised
against the major pieces of evidence of the incident: the matter
concerning the number of witnesses aboard the ship Almitante
Saldanha who claimed to have seen the UFO and the photographs
taken by Almiro Bara=FAna. In the first case, skeptics allege that
the UFO researchers do not have the names or the testimonies of
all the 48 witnesses who supposedly were aboard at that time.

In the UFO literature the number of the mentioned witnesses
varies between 10 and 48, a fact that has been pointed out by
the critics as a failure from the UFO researchers. The witnesses
that we know so far are Jos=E9 dos Santos Saldanha da Gama, Carlos
Alberto Bacellar, Paulo Moreira da Silva, Jos=E9 Teobaldo Viegas,
Mauro Andrade, Amilar Vieira Filho, Homero Ribeiro, Farias de
Azevedo; a sailor whose first name is all we know, Alo=EDsio; and
the photographer himself, Almiro Bara=FAna. Among these people,
some would be indirect witnesses - they were aboard the shipe
when the UFO was seen, but did not actually see it. Such fact is
also criticized by the incident debunkers, but a current effort
in order to obtain documents of that time which contain the
names of all the witnesses - whether it was 48 or less - and an
attempt to obtain their testimony would be sufficient to
neutralize the skepticism.

The second question recently raised on the Trindade Island
incident is against the photographic evidence obtained by
Bara=FAna, which is the key factor that led the incident to
acquire worldwide fame. In the last months a controversial
article against the legitimacy of the photographs was published.
The author, Martin Powell, rekindles the discussion that the
photographs taken by Bara=FAna were a hoax in which the technique
of double exposure had been used to fabricate the UFO over the
island. Powell argues that Bara=FAna had taken pictures of an
airplane in the sky somewhere and afterwards photographed
Trindade Island, thus causing the double exposure. He goes on to
say that the UFO seen on the second photograph of the sequence
is the same UFO seen on the first photograph, but in an inverted
position. He also states that the remaining photos would be
degraded through a process of successive copies taken from the
first picture by Bara=FAna.

Notwithstanding the great debates aroused on the Web, the
article has many flaws; firstly because Powell presents his
analysis based only in low quality copies of the photographs
that were not directly obtained from the original ones; and
mainly because he never analyzed the negatives - something that
would have been essential. An assessment of such material is
vital if one is to raise suspicion over the entire incident,
since nothing else can be said about it. And without such
analysis, no study, such as Powell's, can be taken seriously. As
far as we know, at the time of the incident the negatives were
analyzed by independent laboratories and no degradation of
photos was found, let alone the evidence that they were obtained
by a double exposure hoax. The copies used by Powell when he
tried to cast doubt on the veracity of the incident were
degraded because they were taken from a low quality printed
book.

Other researchers also raised suspicions as to the correct
sequence in which the photos were supposedly taken. The main one
- the claim about the UFO's inverted position from photograph
one to photograph two - doesn't hold water either. If the object
exhibited in one photograph is the same exhibited in the other,
on condition that one of them was inverted, the objects should
have been of the same size, since they were the same object.
However, the photographs show the UFO with apparent different
sizes, as expected. In the path followed by the object while
flying over Trindade Island, it came from the sea, flew over the
place, and went back to the sea [See the sequence of the four
photos]. And when the UFO was exactly over the sea, its apparent
size seemed to be smaller than when the object was flying over
the island, near Desejado peak [Photo 3]. In fact, it was at
that point that the UFO was closer to the ship; thus its size
was apparently bigger. Due to this feature, and some others,
that shot turned out to be the best among the four snapshots
Bara=FAna had taken.

Photograph annalists gave their opinion about the article and
did not agree with its results either. The engineer and co-
editor of UFO magazine in Brazil, Claudeir Covo, and the
photograph annalist of the North American Mutual UFO Network
(Mufon), Jeffrey Sainio, are radically against Powell's
"findings". Claudeir, for example, points out that a double
exposure would certainly have been detected on the negatives,
despite the fact that the photos were soon developed aboard the
ship, which denies the allegation of fraud. The discussions
continue and, in spite of the flaws, the article attracted
publicity, which favored the all-time skeptics and finally
aroused a conflict between them and the present researches. But
both groups agree that new analyses conducted on the negatives
would completely eliminate any fragments of doubt concerning the
photographs of the Trindade Island incident, although no pixel
of hoax has been found so far, nor any fact that might discredit
Bara=FAna's reputation.

The sighting of this UFO by the crewmembers of navy's training
ship Almirante Saldanha was not the only incident that took
place on Trindade Island. At least seven previous observations
had occurred, and had been documented since November 1957. On
two occasions the appearance of a UFO over the site was followed
by interference on the island radio station that used to contact
weather balloons launched for scientific research. Such a fact
is parallel to the sighting of the UFO over Almirante Saldanha
because on that occasion the machinery of the ship also suffered
interference. We also have the information of a UFO seen by a
sergeant who was stationed on the Island; but little is known
about that incident. Anyway, the irreproachable reputation of
Bara=FAna, the previous occurrences and the excellent quality of
the photos taken give us a strong basis to support the famous
Trindade Island incident, in spite of all the contradictory work
done by the critics.








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                     'Scooby-Doo And The Alien Invaders'

From: James Easton <voyager@jeaston.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 04:38:58 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:57:39 -0500
Subject: 'Scooby-Doo And The Alien Invaders'


The following might be of interest to UFO UpDates subscribers:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/2157

Therein, I wrote:

"At the previous invitation of Chris, an imminent issue of 'The
Skeptic' magazine will be entirely dedicated to the story of
Britain's 'Roswell' - those infamous Rendlesham forest 'UFO'
encounters - featuring contributions from myself and others".

Prof. Chris French now confirms this will in fact be a special
'double-issue'.


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@jeaston.com







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   Dec > Dec 2

                                   Socorro

From: James Easton <voyager@jeaston.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 04:41:10 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 00:21:24 -0500
Subject: Socorro


The following might be of interest:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/2217


Please note inherent copyright and also the latest update
at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/2224


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@jeaston.com








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                Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 11:15:50 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 00:40:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs -



Good Day Fellow Listorians,

In 1948 First Secretary of Defense, James Forrestal invited Maj.
General J. (Wild Bill) Donovan, former first Director of the
"Office of Coordinator of Information" (COI), then later the
Director of "The Office of Strategic Services" (OSS), to serve
on a secret committee including Dr. Vannevar Bush, Admiral
Sidney Souers, and General Alfred M. Gruenther to study
"defensive problems" against "unconventional attack" against the
United States. [With emphasis on the Russians]

The study was split into 7 categories:

1). Clandestine attack employing "biological weapons."

2). Clandestine delivery of atomic explosives.

3). Attacks on key individuals, groups or installations.

4). Certain special applications of psychological warfare (i.e.,
thought control or special mode as it was called).

5). Unconventional methods of economic warfare.

6). Clandestine attack employing chemical weapons.

7). Clandestine attack employing radiological weapons.

Given the afore mentioned names - was this committee borne from
all the UFO activity the previous year?

Does the known existence of this committee support "Majestic
Documents?"

Was this a "sub-committee" of MJ-12?

Thoughts anyone?

Regards,

Frank Warren








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                              Airdrie, Alberta

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:38:41 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 00:44:13 -0500
Subject: Airdrie, Alberta


Airdrie, Alberta

Date:  Early July 2000
Time:  Late Evening

A gentleman called on to file a report. He first told me he
lives in the next town north of Airdrie, Alberta. Back in the
year 2000 he was living in Calgary, Alberta and they had just
purchased the home north of Airdrie. The fellow works evenings,
so one night when he finished off his shift at work, he asked a
good friend if he wanted to take a drive and have a look at his
new home he had purchased. He told me it was a beautiful evening
and they decided to take the trip to look at the new home. They
headed out, both men discussing the distance they would be
traveling from Calgary to the new home. The driver thought they
would be traveling some 40 kilometers, but his friend thought it
would be a little further then that. The driver hit the button
on the odometer which set it at zero kilometers. This way they
would know just how far they were about to travel one way. The
two men arrived safely at their destination and had a look
around and took some time talking etc... It was starting to get
later into the evening so they thought it best to get back on
the road heading towards home. The passenger in the vehicle
mentioned to the driver that he had in-laws living in Airdrie
and would it be ok if they swung by to show the driver their
home.

As they drove along the highway outside of Airdrie the driver
noticed some very bright lights coming up from behind them. The
lights were very bright, has the passenger had turned around to
look he commented on the brightness and how fast the lights were
approaching them. Both men thinking this was a vehicle never
gave it a lot of thought, other than these lights which were
almost blinding to the driver.

Now here is where the story takes a strange twist. All of a
sudden the fellows came upon a large sign, it read "Country Hill
Boulevard" which is the first exit to Calgary. What is puzzling
is that from when the strange lights came up from behind them
and to the sign which read "Country Hill Boulevard", there is a
possibility that some time has gone missing. Both men do not
recall driving through Airdrie at all. The driver took a look at
the odometer and he noticed they may be missing 20 kilometers.
As he mentioned to me, he never gave any of this much thought,
but did find it rather strange. The driver also said he has
driven this stretch of highway many times and nothing like this
has ever taken place.

I asked the man if he or his friend had ever had any vivid
dreams and he said no. As far as he knows nothing out of the
ordinary has happened to him other than this one strange event.
The driver did mention that his friend did lose a little sleep
over the experience.

Thank you to the witnesses for their report.

Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com








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                 Re: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:07:53 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 00:49:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses - Boone


>From: Vince White <Vinceomni@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:19:45 EST
>Subject: Censoring Dr. Greer &Witnesses

>Dr. Greer has made many mistakes - but he, with flaws, made
>history with  his uncensored press conference. Let his
>detractors do a _better_ one. Let  them develop and screen
>better witnesses. But hopefully the next new disclosure group
>will not begin by censoring it's witnesses. Let the table be
>wide indeed, as the UFO subject in awesome reality is. Let the
>sun shine on open press conferences and open ended hearings.


>Vince White

I'm all for what Greer has been doing BUT he's tackling way too
many issues at once. The public isn't use to having so much data
thrown at them. Especially a subject as volatile as UFOs.

What Greer should do first is just prove that there is an ET
agenda. Solid evidence/proof that can be publicly examined. Once
he does that, then he can branch off into new medicines, zero
point, and whatever else he's got going.

That's procedure. So far he's done an awesome job of getting the
issue out to the public in a huge way, but he's still at the "
I'll show you the proof if you can get us immunity from
prosecution " stage.

Everyone seems stuck at this. Lotta witnesses I can agree who
won't jaw publicly unless they can get immunity. That's a big
indicator in the right direction but again, we have to prove,
beyond any doubt that there is an ET connection.

Folks in the Carolinas say he's one of the best surgeons ever!

(I say that cause I heard from folks he's part Cherokee and
that means we's cousins somewhere down the line)

Best,

Greg









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   Dec > Dec 2

                     Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:18:02 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 00:56:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Jones


>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:23:15 -0000
>Subject: Ufology - Ten Questions

>All,

Evening All

>1: If after many years in Ufology, you arrive at the fact, that
>ET has arrived here on this planet, should you be considered
>someone who has a 'Closed Mind'?

By some yes. By myself, no.

>2: If yes to the above, does this mean that the choice of being
>a sceptic is the only one available to UFO research?

Ditto above

>3: If you believe ET has arrived, does this make you less of a
>person to debate with?

Nah, I enjoy a good debate/argument any day <g>

>4: How closely should UFO researchers align themselves with
>Government agencies?

Is there any reason why they should not?

>5: Should censorship play an important role in closing debates,
>if answers are not forthcoming?

In what way? It has never stopped the speculation.

>6: Is UFO research a  subject for _free_ thinkers, or is there a
>line to toe?

Depends what "clique" you are in <g>

>7: Who patented UFO thought as non-ET related?

Me! Or was that Andy Roberts?

>8: How far should one use, web stats tracking as evidence of
>inquiry?

Depends on your term "use". I would not use them in any other
way than as evidence of interest.

>9: How far should personal prejudice play a role in your UFO
>research? 1

None

>10: Should any researcher, be treated  as an unreliable
>candidate for UFO research DATA if they have used illegal drugs
>- past or present?

Oh give Andy a rest. We all have skeletons in our closet. I know
some Police officers who took (or still take) "drugs" does that
stop them being a decent Police officer? Does an airline pilot
who takes pain killers become a drug user?

>Roy

Roy you obviously have an _issue_ with Andy Roberts and his
recreational pharmaceutical habit, I don't. I consider it about
the same as cigarette smokers, drinkers of alcoholic beverages
and et al.

It is the quality of their work which should be treated with or
without respect. Not some other issue.

Hold on, I'm now going to have John Velez point out about a
certain un-mentionable and that his practices outside Ufology
etc. So you could ask where do I draw the line, well in that
case, I would say that each case has it's individual
merits/demerits and should be judged individually, pretty much
like each UFO research case.

Well better get off my soap box now as I have shed loads of work
to be getting on with.

Warmest to all

Sean
AKA no one in particular, and not a drinker, smoker or drug user, hey I
*must* be a boring old fart eh?
--

   In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                        Sean Jones
              http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/








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                     Vernon British Columbia - 11-30-03

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:44:31 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 09:24:03 -0500
Subject: Vernon British Columbia - 11-30-03


Vernon, British Columbia

Date: November 30, 2003
Time:  4:45 p.m.

Hello Brian

On November 30. Sunday at 4:45 p.m. I was watching a bright
white light hovering low in the south west horizon. It was in
the wrong place for Venus. A few minutes of observation and I
knew it wasn't a plane or a helicopter. At about 4:50 it was
slowly moving toward the west. It remained a bright white light.
A few minutes later and I watched it descend into the trees on
the hill directly south of Vernon airport. Through the binos I
watched it disappear from sight, and the bottom of the light
"seemed" to turn orange red as if it was shutting down.

Then just over the lake my eye caught strobing lights moving too
fast for a small plane about to land.I saw an  "orb ascend
quickly"  towards (sort of) the north from the lake and in the
binoculars it seemed to go right by a plane heading southwest.

The plane was low (approx. 15,000 ft) with its wing lights
on.The orb had pink strobing lights but was barely visible to
the naked eye.The orb reminded me of the globes that appear when
Ghosts are filmed. Nebulous but there.The sky was still in its
final colors of sunset, though the sun was long gone.

Wow. was I excited. take care

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com







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   Dec > Dec 2

                      Dusty Disc May Mean Other Earths

From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc90405@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 15:07:53 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 09:25:56 -0500
Subject: Dusty Disc May Mean Other Earths


Source: BBC-On-Line

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3251382.stm

Dusty disc may mean other Earths
By Dr David Whitehouse
BBC News Online science editor

Astronomers say they have evidence for Earth-like planets
orbiting a nearby star, making it more like our own Solar System
than any yet discovered.

The star, Vega, is one of the brightest in the sky, only 25
light-years away. It is three times larger than our Sun and, at
350 million years old, much younger as well.

Vega has a disc of dust circling it, and at least one large
planet which could sweep debris aside allowing smaller worlds
like Earth to exist.

The analysis, by astronomers from the Royal Observatory,
Edinburgh, is published in The Astrophysical Journal, and is
based on observations taken with one of the world's most
sensitive cameras.

The device, the Submillimetre Common-User Bolometer Array
(Scuba), is attached to the James Clerk Maxwell radio telescope
in Hawaii.

Computer model

Its detailed images of Vega and its environment confirm the
presence of a disc of very cold dust (-180C) in orbit around the
star.

New computer modelling techniques show that structure seen in
the disc can be best explained by a Neptune-like planet orbiting
at a similar distance to Neptune in our own Solar System and
having similar mass.


The wide orbit of the Neptune-like planet means that there is
plenty of room inside it for small rocky planets similar to the
Earth. "The shape of the disc is the clue that it is likely to
contain planets," says Mark Wyatt of the Royal Observatory,
Edinburgh.

"Although we can't directly observe the planets, they have
created clumps in the disc of dust around the star."

If this is the case then it may mean that Vega has a planetary
system like our own.

Subject to test

The Vega system may have evolved a similar way to our Solar
System with gas giants such as Neptune forming close to the Sun,
and then being pushed out to their current orbits by
gravitational interactions with their neighbours.

During this process such giant planets suck in all the debris
that would otherwise pound young planets, allowing life to
develop more easily upon them.

The idea can be tested in two ways as Wayne Holland, who made
the original observations, explains: "The model predicts that
the clumps in the disc will rotate around the star once every
300 years.

"If we take more observations after a gap of a few years we
should see the movement of the clumps.

"Also the model predicts the finer detail of the disc's
clumpiness which can be confirmed using the next generation of
telescopes and cameras."







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                 Re: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 19:12:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 09:39:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses - Velez


>From: Vince White <Vinceomni@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:19:45 EST
>Subject: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses

Hello Vince,

You write:

>There has been a long and vehement criticism of the DISCLOSURE
>PROJECT press conference for daring to mention such topics as;
>operational gravity control, zero point energy, space-based SDI,
>and deep conspiracies relating to a massive coverup.

Not a single one of the "disclosure witnesses" has testified
about 'space-based weaponry' or 'zero point energy.'

The fact is; each and every witness has testified about
something _UFO_ related, but not a single word was ever spoken
(_prior_ to the press conference) about either one of the other
two separate and completely _unrelated_ (to UFO info disclosure)
issues.

Ya know, Vince... a good 'offense' is not always the best
'defence'.' That, in spite of accepted Monday morning
quarterback wisdom!

Prior to the press conference, Greer _never_ once mentioned that
he was going to 'tack-on' the issues of 'space-based weapons' or
'zero-point energy' to the original UFO agenda. There were
several posts to this List where it was intimated how Greer's
own people were shocked at his inclusion of those (unrelated to
UFOs) issues at the eleventh hour.

Attaching a hot-button political issue like space-based weaponry
onto the original UFO agenda, on his own, without the
testimonial support of the witnesses, or even his own people,
(who were reported to have vehemently protested his inclusion of
it) was something that outraged a lot of people. Not just me.

I have not read (or written myself) any posts which attempts to
"censor" the witnesses or Greer. What are you talking about
here? Could you please refer the rest of us to the posts where
either the witnesses or Dr. Greer is being "censored?" - by
myself or anybody else.

>Dr. Greer is excoriated for this "political baggage" being
>affixed to pure UFO disclosure. There is no such purity
>possible.

What do you mean by "purity", Vince? No one, Greer included,
ever mentioned 'space-based weaponry' or 'zero point energy'
_prior_ to the press conference. As far as any of us ever knew,
the hearings were supposed to help secure disclosure of
information relating to _UFOs_ (UAPs whatever you prefer) but I
repeat, never, not once, were either of the other two issues
mentioned by Greer, the witnesses, or anybody else who was
associated with his so called "Disclosure Project."

I challenge you to show us any evidence, or even mention of
either of the added-on issues _prior_ to the press conference.
Greer caught _everybody_ with their pants down around their
ankles with those two little 'bombs'.

And now, here you are attempting to portray any public protest
about Greer's actions as; an attempt to censor Greer and the
witnesses. What totally made-up Balderdash!

Levelling a charge of censorship is a load of hooey! If I didn't
already suspect the probable answer, I'd ask you where you
"pulled that one out of!"  ie; censorship of Greer and the
witnesses)

>Mentioning these subjects is supposed to have frightened
>Congress out of open hearings. If true a sad commentary on the
>level of legislative moral courage present - and prospects for
>vigorous inquiry.

That is a patently false and misleading remark. First, it was
John Alexander, former head of NIDS that accused Greer of having
screwed up efforts that were being made toward securing
congressional hearings by taking his dog and pony show before
the national press. According to Alexander, negotiations were
already underway when Greer went ahead and 'did his own thing'
without consulting (or concern apparently) for any one or
anything else.

John Alexander has publicly accused Greer of derailing an
_actual_ effort to secure congressional disclosure hearing.
Something that Greer has not had to answer for. Nay... instead
of being held accountable for his act, or having to respond to
Alexander's damning indictment, he is 'rewarded' (by his
cronies) by being invited to speak at UFO conferences. As if he
represented the interests of anyone other than himself.

>Those objecting to these additional subjects are basically
>asking for censorship of witness testimony.

Nonsense! You have no evidence. Show me where anyone has
attempted to "censor" the witnesses or Greer.

>If government possession of alien derived zero point energy
>devices is an integral part of coverup motives, shall we censor
>witnesses, or intel sources carefully developed, who say these
>things?

Geez, that's one hell of an assumption you make, Vince!

"Zero point energy is an integral part of the cover-up?" Says
who? Greer? You? I'm still waiting for somebody to show me one
tiny shred of evidence for such a thing.

And, may I ask....

What "intel sources?" Oh, do you mean those "highly placed and
always _unnamed_ sources" that Greer is always referring to! The
same ones that only he is apparently privy to. Are these the
same _unnamed_ "intel sources" that have given Greer exclusive,
insider information about the plot to stage a phoney alien
invasion so that the military industrial complex can fully take
over the running of this country and the world?

Are these "intel sources" you refer to the same ones that gave
Greer exclusive, insider information about how 98% of all UFO
abductions are being committed by clandestine military factions
of the US government?

Gimme a break.

These "intel sources" you mention seem to suffer from a terminal
case of diarrhea of the mouth every time Greer walks into a
room! Or so he would have us all believe. Greer would have us
all believe that highly placed "intel sources" have spilled
their guts and confess -to him and to him only- everything there
is to know about all of these global 'take-over' conspiracies.

I don't know who's nuttier, Greer or anyone who buys into his
paranoid delusions.

>If a witness speaks of UFOs being targeted by our space based
>SDI assets, censor this risky reality?

Again, show me where _anybody_ has done that. It's really a
rhetorical question because, bottom-line, you can't. No one has
attempted to "censor" anybody. Greer or the witnesses. Not on
_this_ List anyway.

>I have deep doubts concerning Dr. Greer's sources accuracy
>regarding abductions & cattle mutilations. He appears to be even
>the victim of disinformation on these issues.

And many others. Funny, you admit to feeling this way about
Greer, yet you try to cover for him by painting his critics as
people who are trying to "censor" him. (and the witnesses!)

Your passion is there and intact. The only thing missing is
evidence for your empty "censorship" accusation.

>Hearings MUST be open ended, to even begin address this
>massive coverup - -largest in history.

There are strong indicators that such is the case but we have no
_proof_ as yet of any such thing. There 'may be' (for all we
know) good and valid reasons for keeping certain information
from the public. Frankly, I don't know what those reasons could
be, but because I (and everyone else) do not know, we need to
wait until more facts and information is in before we can call
our government's handling of information pertaining to UFOs "the
largest mass cover-up in history." It's still a wee bit early in
the game to leap to that conclusion. Although it may very well
be true.

Consider this: If it turns out that aliens from outer space are
here to eat our babies and rape the triple holes in our vintage
Buicks with their trident members, the government may be showing
good sense and have good reason to keep that knowledge from the
'general' public. Just a metaphor but you get my drift I'm sure.

We don't have all the answers yet. Too early to arrive ay any
conclusions.

>Let the
>sun shine on open press conferences and open ended hearings.

Finally, something we can agree on! Eureka!!!


Regards,

John Velez, speaking strictly for myself







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                             Soliciting Articles

From: Roy Hale - The Lost Haven <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 00:54:30 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 09:43:17 -0500
Subject: Soliciting Articles



Dear Colleagues,

The new year is approaching fast, and I am looking for new UFO
articles for my UFO 'Ezine - Down To Earth.

If you have a serious article for publishing, then please
contact me on the below address.

ufos@thelosthaven.co.uk

If you are writing a book, or have  a video out then please
furnish me with the details, all applications are considered for
web site placement ( No fee required ).

For an example on book adverts click here:
http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/AwakeMaryUFO.htm

Exposure guaranteed  to a hungry world of UFO info seekers!

Word format, or text files accepted, please e-mail me prior to
sending - anti-virus precautions.


Regards,

Roy.

Visit The Lost Haven
http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk







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                          Didsbury Alberta 11-28-03

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:42:27 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 09:49:15 -0500
Subject: Didsbury Alberta 11-28-03


Didsbury, Alberta

Date:  November 28, 2003
Time: approx: 12:00 (midnight)

I had a call from a fellow who resides in Didsbury, he read an
article in the Airdrie Echo about sightings that have taken
place around the community recently. He was outside his home and
reports seeing three very bright lights sitting over the Rocky
Mountain Range. He reports watching them for approximately three
minutes before they all blinked out at the same time. The
witness reports that the lights were white/yellow in color. The
lights did move around from side to side, up and down which the
witness found very strange. He also reports that the lights
moved individually, not together as one unit. Due to the
distance the fellow was to the lights, which as a long ways
away, he said they were fairly close together when looking from
his location. But thought if one would have been up close then
the lights would have been spread out a good distance from one
another.

Thank you to the witness for the report.


Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com






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                      Physicist Explains String Theory

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 09:56:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 09:56:33 -0500
Subject: Physicist Explains String Theory




Source: Daily Nexus - UC Santa Barbara's Student Newspaper

http://www.ucsbdailynexus.com/news/2003/6192.html

Physicist Explains String Theory to SB
By Ben Krasnow - Staff Writer

Monday, November 24, 2003


Physicist Brian Greene taught audience members how to see in 10
dimensions at the Lobero Theatre Sunday night.

A leading string theorist and a member of UCSB's Kavli Institute
for Theoretical Physics, Greene recounted the highlights of his
book, The Elegant Universe. After going over the physics
background necessary to understand string theory, Greene drew
audible "wows" from the audience when he explained the core
underpinnings of string theory, and how our understanding of the
universe could subsequently change.

Greene was introduced by Chris Carter, producer and writer of
the TV show, 'The X-Files'. Carter recalled reading Greene's
book and thinking about the implications of these new ideas in
physics. Sometimes the reality of what theoretical physics
predicts is hard to grasp, even for a science fiction writer.

"As strange as 'The X-Files' could be, we never got as far out
as this guy," Carter said.

Theoretical physics describes a branch of science that tries to
explain physical phenomena by using mathematics and careful
thought instead of empirical measurements. Greene hailed Albert
Einstein as the most influential theoretical physicist in
history.

"He changed the ideas of space and time," Greene said.

Einstein's first major contribution to the modern understanding
of physics was the introduction of the ultimate speed limit -
 the speed of light, Greene said. Before this maximum speed
limit was introduced, scientists thought some things could
happen instantaneously, like gravity. Newton's law of
gravitation states that the attraction felt between two objects
is instantaneous. Einstein stated that this is not possible.
Nothing - no signal, no information, no influence - can travel
faster than the speed of light.

Light has been measured to travel at 186,000 miles per second.
The sun is so far away that even at that tremendous speed, it
takes nearly eight minutes for the its light to reach the Earth.
If the sun disappeared right now, we could not possibly know
until eight minutes had passed. Earth's gravitational attraction
to the sun holds the planet in orbit. If gravity acted
instantaneously and light did not, the earth would leave its
orbit before the darkness accompanying the sun's disappearance
reached it.

"The fact that there is a speed limit is a problem for Newton's
Law," Greene said.

Greene said that Einstein's second major contribution was his
theory of general relativity. This theory provides a way to
understand how gravity works while still obeying the maximum
speed limit. In fact, Einstein's calculations proved that the
speed of gravity should be exactly the same as the speed of
light. Greene said the reason Einstein has been praised so much
is because his ideas unified two things - the speed of light and
the speed of gravity. Physical theories that unify separate
phenomena are always desirable because they approach the idea
that there is one singular theory that could explain everything
in the universe, Greene said.

To explain general relativity, Greene used the analogy of a thin
horizontal rubber sheet. If the sheet was perfectly flat, a
marble placed on the sheet would have no tendency to roll in any
direction. If a bowling ball was placed on the sheet, it would
form a large depression. The marble would roll down into the
depression, toward the bowling ball. The heavier the bowling
ball, the bigger the depression, and the faster the marble will
would roll toward it. If the bowling ball were removed very
quickly, the rubber sheet would take a short time to return to
its flat shape. That amount of time is analogous to the speed of
gravity.

"Gravity is the fabric of space and time," Greene said.
"Einstein's theory works just a little better than Newton's."

In the case of the sun disappearing, general relativity states
that the earth would remain in orbit for eight minutes after the
sun is gone. This is the time it would take for the gravity wave
to reach earth and release it from the depression in space that
is currently holding it the sun's orbit.

Besides relativity, there is another area of physics that has
changed markedly in the last century. This field is called
quantum theory, and it describes how physics works on a very
small scale. Greene said that on a macro scale, the warping of
space is very smooth, like a smooth depression in a rubber
sheet. On the micro scale, space is not smooth. It is constantly
churning and moving, like the surface of boiling water. Quantum
theory describes this rapid and chaotic motion, and has some
startling physical conclusions.

"If you fire a particle like an electron at a barrier that
classically it could not penetrate, quantum theory says there is
a small chance it can," Greene said.

Greene went on to say that there is even a chance that he could
walk into a solid stone column and come out on the other side.
The probability is extremely low, but it is not zero according
to quantum theory.

String theory provides a way to unify the smoothness of macro
space and the roughness and chaos of micro space, Greene said.
The basic concept of string theory is that every piece of matter
in the universe is composed of very small vibrating loops of
string. The pattern of vibrations, much like the pattern of
vibrations on the string of a musical instrument, determines the
properties of the particle it composes, Greene said.

The dilemma is that the mathematics behind string theory require
the tiny loops of string to vibrate in 10 dimensions. This is a
problem because no person has ever seen more than three
dimensions. This conclusion does not daunt string theorists like
Greene. He explained one way in which the other seven dimensions
could be hidden to observers by rolling up a sheet of paper. If
the flat plane of paper represented space, it has two
dimensions: top to bottom, and left to right. If the paper is
rolled up into a cylinder, the left to right [[left-to-right]]
dimension is unchanged, but the top to bottom [[top-to-bottom]]
dimension is changed into clockwise or counterclockwise. If the
paper is rolled tighter, the cylinder will be come very thin,
and from afar it may look like a simple line with no rolled-up
clockwise dimension. This may be how the seven other dimensions
of string theory are hidden.

Greene said that string theory could be strengthened by
observational data from space. When the universe was young, the
strings that made up all matter were very energetic. As the
universe cooled down and expanded, the imprint left from the
energetic strings may have remained. Thus, there could be large,
string-shaped artifacts in space waiting be found that would
provide evidence for string theory.

"Nothing to me would be more poetic; no outcome would be more
graceful ... than for us to confirm our theories of the
ultramicroscopic makeup of spacetimea and matter by turning our
giant telescopes skyward and gazing at the stars," Greene said.


All content, photographs, graphics and design Copyright =A9 2000-
2003 Daily Nexus.







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                Re: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses - LeFevre

From: Charlette LeFevre <clefevre@oz.net>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 02:20:55 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:03:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses - LeFevre


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:07:53 EST
>Subject: Re: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses

>Folks in the Carolinas say he's one of the best surgeons ever!

>(I say that cause I heard from folks he's part Cherokee and
>that means we's cousins somewhere down the line)

Greg, I'm part Cherokee but I don't use that as an excuse to
state Greer's level of ability as a surgeon from hearsay. In
recent years there have been serious public inquiries and
questions on Greer's supposed practice as a surgeon and nothing
has been found other than a renewed license (which of course is
not proof of active medical service or employment as an
emergency room doctor or proof as a hospital board Chairman)

Not that I'm stating these findings are definitive but in
fairness if there is any background in the medical practice it
would serve Greer to forthright post on his website - he
certainly knows of this issue. You have to admit he is very
egotistical and disclosure should honestly start with the
speaker don't you think?

When the Seattle UFO group had Greer as a speaker in 1998 (when
the lecture group was starting out and perhaps still too naive)
Greer informed us he was on a "sabatical" regarding his lengthy
absence from the emergency room.  Well, surgeon's don't take
sabaticals and even so I have to comment he has certainly been
absent from active practice for years now - so much that it
seems he should responsibly stop calling himself "Dr."
 Realizing the evidence and documentation should stand on its
own and doesn't need name dropping. You will notice in all of
Greer's presentations he extensively name drops and "his"
interview films are roughly chopped up from other interviews
taken from other speakers and film makers.

Alot of people share Greer's goals, just not his methods to the
point that I can confidently say organizers in Seattle see no
need to schedule him for future talks.










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                   Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:25:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 09:52:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Maccabee


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:50:41 -0600
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:52:18 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>I don't know. I do have great respect for Klass.

>Though I honestly appreciate your forthrightness here, I am very
>sorry to hear it, and sad to say, it immediately makes me view
>what you're up to with doubt and suspicion. As we say out here
i>n Midwestern America, we've already been to that rodeo.

>Having had long experience with Klass, both observing him and
>interacting with him (we exchanged hundreds of letters over the
>years), I came to same conclusion that virtually every American
>ufologist -- starting with James McDonald, the victim of one of
>Klass's most notorious vilification campaigns -- is forced to:
>that he was an obsessed crank who contributed little to the UFO
>debate except noise, strange rhetoric, pseudoscientific
>speculation, and character assassination.

>Long ago, in its February 1981 issue, Fate ran an extended
>article I wrote documenting Klass's deceptive strategies. I
>believe it's out there on the Internet somewhere; it's titled
>"Phil Klass vs. the 'UFO Promoters.'" I wouldn't change a word
>of it. Everything Klass did in the years afterwards, up till
>his recent retirement, simply underscored all of my observations
>of his behavior.

>This view of Klass is also held by many skeptics I have known,
>including my late friends Gordon Stein (who worked at CSICOP
>headquarters as its librarian and archivist, as well as writing
>his own fine skeptical books) and Marcello Truzzi (who cofounded
>CSICOP but left it when he saw that it would be dominated by
>Klass types).

>One does not have to be pro-UFO to hold Klass and his methods in
>disdain. A particularly devastating portrayal of Klass appears
i>n Dennis Rawlins's "Starbaby" (which I believe is also out
>there on the Internet), and it's hard to find a harder-core
>skeptic (or a more honest one) than Rawlins. Other prominent
>skeptics, including Jim Lippard, Tom McIver, and Daniel Cohen,
>have also told of their unhappy encounters with Klass. Lippard
>and McIver were so stunned by their experiences, in fact, that
>each independently went to me afterwards for information and
>enlightenment as a longtime Klass watcher.

>If you admire Klass, you and I are living in very different
>worlds, with very different expectations of what intellectual
i>ntegrity is and of how inquiry ought to be conducted, what is
>reasonable argument and what is not, and what is fair game and
>what is not.

I feel I must lend support to Jerry's discussion about Klass and
the "Klassical technique" of "solving" the UFO problem.

I, too, have exchanged many letters with PJK, mostly between
1974 and 1985. the great bulk of these related to McMinnville
(photos, Trent, 1950) and New Zealand (Dec. 31, 1978). IN the
New Zealand discussion we exchanged, not a few hundred, but
perhaps as many as several_thousand_ single spaced pages over
about a 5 year period. I dare say it was the largest letter
exchange over any one case in history.

And the bottom line was that, in his 1983 book, "UFOs, the
Public Deceived," PJK deceived the public by claiming to have
explained the NZ sightings.H is explanation was, however,
completely erroneous, as I had pointed out to him in many
letters previous to the writing of his book.

My 'professional opinion' of the way PJK treated the UFO subject
is expressed at the following location:

http://brumac.8k.com/prosaic1.html

which is a paper I wrote several years ago (at the behest of
Eugene Mallove, Editor of Infinite Energy Magazine). In that
paper you will see several cases for which PJK provided "prosaic
explanations", including the Val Johnson case mentioned
previously by Jerry.

One good thing I could say about PJK was that he seemed to be
the only skeptic who really took the subject seriously enough to
spend a lot of time studying the cases. Also, he "trained" me in
how to approach a sighting as might a lawyer, looking for weak
points in the case. Unfortunatly, he was not competent to argue
all the different types of physics one encounters in UFO cases
(few people are) but this didn't stop him. He invented and then
published explanations even when they were unphysical,
explanations that would not have gone unchallenged by
conventional physicists had they been published in conventional
refereed journals. But explanations published in papers an books
can establish an impression that "the case(s) has (have) been
explained" and then any refutation that might come later doesn't
get the same level of recognition or publicity. The case(s)
remain ":explained" in the minds of the scientists and general
public. Examples of this are in the paper at the above cited web
site.

Many years ago I was told (by William Hartmann of the Condon
study) with regard to the McMinnville photo case, "You don't
need a better, you need a better case." I will paraphrase that
remark and apply it to the present situation: "We don't need
better cases; we need better skeptics."








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                     Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Hale

From: Roy Hale - The Lost Haven <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:45:52 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:12:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Hale


>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:18:02 +0000
>Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Jones

Sean,

>Evening All

>>1: If after many years in Ufology, you arrive at the fact, that
>>ET has arrived here on this planet, should you be considered
>>someone who has a 'Closed Mind'?

>By some yes. By myself, no.

 Agreed!

>>2: If yes to the above, does this mean that the choice of being
>>a sceptic is the only one available to UFO research?

>Ditto above

I agree, although there does seem to be a national divide.

>>3: If you believe ET has arrived, does this make you less of a
>>person to debate with?

>Nah, I enjoy a good debate/argument any day <g>

Steady Sean, the last argument I had at a UFO conference, ended up
by me settling it with a few drinks and out of pocket!

>>4: How closely should UFO researchers align themselves with
>>Government agencies?

>Is there any reason why they should not?

Whistle-blowers come to mind.

>>5: Should censorship play an important role in closing debates,
>>if answers are not forthcoming?

>In what way? It has never stopped the speculation.

I would hope most people would not prefer censorship, once
started it can extend to many areas of debate. Speculation is
always around never stops.

>>6: Is UFO research a  subject for _free_ thinkers, or is there a
>>line to toe?

>Depends what "clique" you are in <g>

I understand.

>>7: Who patented UFO thought as non-ET related?

>Me! Or was that Andy Roberts?

Come on, give Andy Roberts a break!

>>8: How far should one use, web stats tracking as evidence of
>>inquiry?

>Depends on your term "use". I would not use them in any other
>way than as evidence of interest.

Agreed. Although they can be quite helpful in other areas.

>>9: How far should personal prejudice play a role in your UFO
>>research? 1

>None

You passed!

>>10: Should any researcher, be treated  as an unreliable
>>candidate for UFO research DATA if they have used illegal drugs
>>- past or present?

>Oh give Andy a rest. We all have skeletons in our closet. I know
>some Police officers who took (or still take) "drugs" does that
>stop them being a decent Police officer? Does an airline pilot
>who takes pain killers become a drug user?

I did not mention Andy once in my main questions. Andy is quite
obviously not the only human on the planet to have engaged in
such activity. But dealing with specific UFO debates, personally
makes the answers for me harder to accept.

>Roy you obviously have an _issue_ with Andy Roberts and his
>recreational pharmaceutical habit, I don't. I consider it about
>the same as cigarette smokers, drinkers of alcoholic beverages
>and et al.

>It is the quality of their work which should be treated with or
>without respect. Not some other issue.

Sean, which case is the one that you would consider, the nearest
to anything ET related, specifically within that case?


Roy








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                             Re: Socorro - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 02:03:34 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:01:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Socorro - Gates


>From: James Easton <voyager@jeaston.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 04:41:10 -0000
>Subject: Socorro


>The following might be of interest:

>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/2217


>Please note inherent copyright and also the latest update
>at:

>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/2224

The essence of this story is that somebody is still trying to
float the hot air balloon theory as an explaination of Socorro
and perhaps other sightings.

A balloon guy (Yost) apparently recalls that some balloons were
launched North of Albuqurque in late 63 early 64. However he
doesn't recall anything landing at Socorro, south of
Albuquerque.

The thoughts apparently was that there was some CIA involvement
in the balloon flights, so James FOIAed CIA and they could
neither confirm nor deny any records of any balloon flights,
thus ended that request.

I suspect the balloon theory will be drifting around... for
awhile, but will never quite reach the destination.


Cheers,

Robert








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                    Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 7:16:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:06:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Aldrich


>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:23:15 -0000
>Subject: Ufology - Ten Questions

<snip>

Have you stopped beating your wife, yes or no?

Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135








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                           Re: Socorro - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:22:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:59:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Socorro - Stanford


>From: James Easton <voyager@jeaston.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 04:41:10 -0000
>Subject: Socorro

>The following might be of interest:

>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/2217

>Please note inherent copyright and also the latest update
>at:

>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/2224

If anyone is stupid enough to believe that after learning the
facts about the Socorro case and knowing the kind of highly
observant and competent observer Zamora has been demonstrated to
be (See, e.g., the Clyde Tombaugh's comments about how accurate
an observer Zamora proved to be during his short-duration
observation of a meteor and its coordinates.), then I have a
nice island for sale just across the river from New York State!
:-o

Furthermore, a hot-air balloon could not have come down from
Albuquerque at that time because the prevailing winds were quite
contrary to any such possibility.

Then too, the Socorro object flew from the landing site
travelling directly into the winds in the Socorro area at that
time, and James Easton knows it and ignores it!  I have told
Easton this fact (and how I learned it), but he chooses to suck
his fantasy thumb and promote his ludicrous tale of bullshit!


Ray Stanford

"You know my method.  It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery








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             Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:05:23 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:11:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs - Hall


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>To:  <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 11:15:50 -0800
>Subject: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs

>Good Day Fellow Listorians,

>In 1948 First Secretary of Defense, James Forrestal invited Maj.
>General J. (Wild Bill) Donovan, former first Director of the
>"Office of Coordinator of Information" (COI), then later the
>Director of "The Office of Strategic Services" (OSS), to serve
>on a secret committee including Dr. Vannevar Bush, Admiral
>Sidney Souers, and General Alfred M. Gruenther to study
>"defensive problems" against "unconventional attack" against the
>United States. [With emphasis on the Russians]

>The study was split into 7 categories:

>1). Clandestine attack employing "biological weapons."

>2). Clandestine delivery of atomic explosives.

>3). Attacks on key individuals, groups or installations.

>4). Certain special applications of psychological warfare (i.e.,
>thought control or special mode as it was called).

>5). Unconventional methods of economic warfare.

>6). Clandestine attack employing chemical weapons.

>7). Clandestine attack employing radiological weapons.

>Given the afore mentioned names - was this committee borne from
>all the UFO activity the previous year?

>Does the known existence of this committee support "Majestic
>Documents?"

>Was this a "sub-committee" of MJ-12?

>Thoughts anyone?

Frank,

It would help if you documented your source or sources of
information. Sounds very interesting, and I look forward to
commentary by historians (hopefully) and well-informed
ufologists.

 - Dick








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                     Re: 'About' Project Grudge - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 11:11:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:17:16 -0500
Subject: Re: 'About' Project Grudge - Kaeser


>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:48:30 -0200
>Subject: Project Grudge

>Source: About.com - UFOs/Aliens

>http://ufos.about.com/library/weekly/aa022498.htm

>Wednesday, 16-Jul-2003

>In February, 1949, Project Sign came to an end, and with it the
>Air Force's objective attitude toward UFOs. The final report of
>Project Sign was decidedly skeptical towards the
>extraterrestrial origin hypothesis for the origin of UFOs,
>reflecting a shift towards explaining all sightings as
>misidentifications of natural phenomena.

>Secretly, however, the Air Force had merely changed the name of
>the project to Project Grudge. The new name reflected the change
>in policy towards UFOs. This change in policy by the Air Force
>brought with it a campaign of characterizing those who believed
>UFOs were extraterrestrial as "kooks". Sidney Shallet, a writer
>for the Saturday Evening Post asked the Air Force for help in
>writing an article about "flying saucers". The Air Force had a
>policy of refusing such requests, but when they found that
>Shallet's article was to be of a debunking nature, they agreed
>to help him. Shallet spent two months researching the subject,
>and then wrote a two-part article entitled What You Can Believe
>About Flying Saucers.

<snip>

There are others who have a greater depth of knowledge on this
history than I, but it should be mentioned that Project Grudge
was more than a simple name change from Project Sign. The
original Project Sign group was asked to investigate UFOs, but
their conclusions were too controversial and the investigation
was re-organized and given the name of Project Grudge.

If one is interested in the history of the field, one should
probably visit:

http://www.project1947.com/

and review some of the documents there.


Steve








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                     Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:09:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:54:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Seti@Home Effective? - Friedman


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:29:13 -0000
>Subject: Re: Seti@Home Effective?

>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:07:13 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Seti@Home Effective?

<snip>

>>>Has anybody seen his brand new book "Cosmic Company: The Search
>>>for Life in the Universe" co-authored with Alexandra Barnett,.
>>>Cambridge Press?. I can't find it here in Fredericton, but will
>>>try to order it.

>>>In a recent paper he said it would take 100,000 years to get to
>>>the stars... presumably using a chemical rocket. I am interested
>>>in what he says about UFOs.

>>Yes, I have a review copy of Shostak's and Barnett's book.

>In relation to your last point in your post I have now read the
>relevant chapter - number four - and he is a sceptic in the
>Rimmer/Harney/Clarke/Roberts mould. No evidence,
>psychological/human behaviour/we want to believe etc. etc.

>I would think in a one to one on the box you wouldn't have too
>many problems.

Thanks much. A local bookstore says they can have it here before
Dec. 12, so I have ordered it. I hope I will be able to read it
before the cruise. I am as interested in what he doesn't deal
with as in what he does talk about. Of special interest is a
lack of referencing to serious UFO literature and to serious
literature on interstellar travel.

The SETI Cultists are accustomed to dealing with people who lap
up what they say. The Drake equation is an excellent example of
a phony "scientific" attempt to determine the number of
civilizations in the galaxy... while leaving out all travel,
migration, colonization, etc.

I doubt if Shostak deals with the difference in perspective for
a planet 34 times closer to another sunlike star than the sun is
to our nearest stellar neighbor... and a billion years older
(than the sun)star at that.


Stan Friedman










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                             Re: Socorro - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:58:51 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:06:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Socorro - Hall


>From: James Easton <voyager@jeaston.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 04:41:10 -0000
>Subject: Socorro

>The following might be of interest:

>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/2217

>Please note inherent copyright and also the latest update
>at:

>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/2224

>James Easton.
>E-mail: voyager@jeaston.com

Hey, Jim,

We're still waiting for that ballooning article that you
indicated was going to convert Socorro into a known hot-air
ballooning incident. All we're left with is hot air; no balloon.


- Dick









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                           'About' Project Grudge

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:48:30 -0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:36:09 -0500
Subject: 'About' Project Grudge


Source: About.com - UFOs/Aliens

http://ufos.about.com/library/weekly/aa022498.htm

Wednesday, 16-Jul-2003

In February, 1949, Project Sign came to an end, and with it the
Air Force's objective attitude toward UFOs. The final report of
Project Sign was decidedly skeptical towards the
extraterrestrial origin hypothesis for the origin of UFOs,
reflecting a shift towards explaining all sightings as
misidentifications of natural phenomena.

Secretly, however, the Air Force had merely changed the name of
the project to Project Grudge. The new name reflected the change
in policy towards UFOs. This change in policy by the Air Force
brought with it a campaign of characterizing those who believed
UFOs were extraterrestrial as "kooks". Sidney Shallet, a writer
for the Saturday Evening Post asked the Air Force for help in
writing an article about "flying saucers". The Air Force had a
policy of refusing such requests, but when they found that
Shallet's article was to be of a debunking nature, they agreed
to help him. Shallet spent two months researching the subject,
and then wrote a two-part article entitled What You Can Believe
About Flying Saucers.

This article and a press release by the Air Force reflected the
new public view of the Air Force that "flying saucers" didn't
exist, that they could all be explained, and that the
"believers" were "kooks". However, insiders knew that the Air
Force was still actively engaged in researching UFOs, and this
contradictory behavior led many to believe that the Air Force
was hiding what it really knew about UFOs.

During this same year, two of the best sightings on record were
made, one by C. B. Moore Jr., who was a balloon expert working
with the Navy on Skyhook balloon launches. (Ironically, he had
been in charge of a balloon project called Project Mogul, and he
would later be used by the Air Force to "prove" that the
"Roswell Incident" had been a Project Mogul balloon train!). The
other important sighting of 1949 was made by the noted
astronomer Professor Clyde Tombaugh, discoverer of the planet
Pluto.

Arrey, New Mexico
24 April 1949

Charles B. Moore, Jr. and four enlisted Navy personnel were
making a pilot balloon observation preparatory to release of a
Skyhook balloon at the White Sands Proving Ground in the middle
of the morning. The pilot balloon was in the air and was under
observation by one of the men when Moore became aware that a
white object which he had thought to be the balloon was in a
different part of the sky from where the theodolite operator had
his instrument pointed. As Moore said later, he thought the
operator had lost the balloon. Moore took over the 25-power
scope and focused it on the other "balloon" he had spotted, and
found that it was in fact an ellipsoidal white object moving at
a rapid angular velocity towards the NE. With a stopwatch and
recording forms at hand, the team of five observers was able to
secure some real data on the object. Moore disengaged the
vernier drives so that he could track the object manually, and
followed the object as it sped from the southwest into the
northeast skies. At its closest approach, it was moving at about
5 degrees/sec. Significantly, just before Moore lost it in the
distance to the northeast, its angular elevation began to
increase, as if it were climbing. The object had a length of
about two to three times its vertical thickness. Moore never got
a sufficiently clear view to identify any finer details if any
were present. Another balloon was immediately released to check
the possibility that a high-speed jet flying from SW to NE might
have carried some airborne object across the sky in its wake,
but the winds were blowing weakly and more or less at right
angles to the object's path as high as the 93,000 ft level. The
angular diameter of the object was estimated at about a minute
of arc (which in the 25-power theodolite would appear to Moore
as about three-fourths the apparent size of a full moon).

Las Cruces, New Mexico
20 August 1949

At about 10:00 P.M., the astronomer Dr. Clyde Tombaugh, his
wife, and his mother-in-law were in the yard of his Las Cruces
home, admiring what Tombaugh described as a sky of rare
transparency, when Tombaugh, looking almost directly towards
zenith, spotted an array of pale yellow lights moving rapidly
across the sky towards the southeast. He called them to the
attention of the two others, who saw them just before they
disappeared halfway to the horizon. The entire array subtended
an angle which Tombaugh put at about one degree, and it took
only a few seconds to cross 50 or 60 degrees of sky. The array
comprised six "windowlike" rectangles of light, formed into a
symmetric pattern; they moved too fast for aircraft, too slowly
for a meteor, and made no sound. Tombaugh said:

I have never seen anything like it before or since, and I have
spent a lot of time where the night sky could be seen well.









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              Re: Scabrous Shadows And The Blue Hare - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:16:34 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 17:53:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Scabrous Shadows And The Blue Hare - Roberts


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates _ Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:27:51 _0600
>Subject: Scabrous Shadows And The Blue Hare

Pilgrims,

Alfred wrote:

>Scabrous Shadows And The Blue Hare... Scurrilous Psycho_social
>Shenanigans!

<snip>


>Look around reader! Psycho-social Ufology is not as it appears!
>Buyer... beware!

Don't throw me in the briar patch!


Happy Trails

Andy







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                   Visitations In Pabos Gaspe Coast Canada

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 09:19:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 17:55:28 -0500
Subject: Visitations In Pabos Gaspe Coast Canada


Thank you to this kind person for allowing me to post her story.

-----

Visitations In Pabos Gaspe Coast Canada

Hi,

I was wondering if you have had any reports of people being
zapped with electricity. I have had a lot of strange visits and
attacks in the past, One in particular happened about 6 years
ago, I woke in the middle of a dream with sleep paralysis, I
could only open my eyes a bit. I could  make out 2 little guys
next to the bed possibly 5 ft tall. I had a type of helmet on my
head and I was being electrocuted. There was also a piece of
metal or something holding down my tongue.The waterbed splashed
and my body vibrated violently as they telepathically told me
not to eat after I wake up, and when I did I was starving, of
course I told myself this cant be real and had pizza which made
me vomit clear liquid. For about 2 hours after I felt waves of
vibration surging down through my body. The next evening I had
an episode of missing time. The kids were asleep, I sat on my
bed with a can of coke, opened it/next moment, lying down, coke
spilling all over. I have fainted once or twice, this was
nothing like that! I went to check the kids and my youngest was
asleep, sitting up with a bleeding nose.

Now I haven't thought of it in a while but there have been a lot
of sightings this week in my area (Pabos Gaspe Coast Canada) I
have had some "dreams" (one that a being arrived on a ship and
came to see me and this baby I had who he claimed was his son.)
my biological mother (I met when I was 25) (lives in Montreal)
also has had some dreams this week including the electrocution
episode which she thought might have been a seizure if it wasn't
for the helmet and the fact that she's never had a seizure
before. I woke up 2 mornings ago with a needle mark on the top
of my foot and a bruise around it. My mother had a "dream" that
a bug  from space with a long needle stung her in the forehead
and woke up with a mark there too.

I was adopted and grew up in a family that did not believe in
ghosts, aliens or such, but I did! I was a very strange child,
and new a lot about spiritual things like reincarnation very
young. Nobody understood me at all. I suffered with sleep
paralysis, astral traveled, saw balls of light over the crib as
a baby ( I thought were bees), many nights of black cloaked
figure sitting on my chest and I saw my grandmother once after
she died ect...When my adoptive mother was dyeing, her last
words to me were find your biological mother, I did 3 months
later, and found that my problem is hereditary, my great
grandfather was a healer. my mother and father saw something
strange one night in the woods while camping, the night I was
conceived. And my mother sister cousin and 2 aunts have all seen
or experienced strange events, it seems to be the women's
problem. Have you heard of any events like these?

One thing that helped me 6 years ago was hypnotism, which I
wasn't sure worked at first but I guess it did. I haven't had
any really scary events, mostly dreams, lately. She told me
about free will, and prayer works when that creepy feeling comes
along, too whichever positive force you believe in. I'm happy to
say that my children don't seem to have any problems other then
that one time. My children do occasionally wake up afraid in the
night. Nobody talks about it much.

-----

Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com







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                    Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:04:55 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 18:08:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Roberts


>From: Roy Hale - The Lost Haven <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:07:38 -0000
>Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions

Roy wrote, in response to Jan Aldrich:

>>Have you stopped beating your wife, yes or no?

>Dear Jan,

>I am afraid that I have never been married.

>Roy

I rest my case.

Happy Trails

Andy






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                           Re: Trindade - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 19:09:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 18:11:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade - Gonzalez


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:13:47 -0200
>Subject: Re: Trindade

Mr. Gevaerd wrote

>The very same researchers, in Brazil, who analyzed the Trindade
>photos ruled out the Barra da Tijuca ones. To the same extent
>that Barauna's photos are absolutely legitimate, Ed Keffel's
>photos are a gross hoax.

Well, presently I am reading Irene Granchi's "UFOS and
Abductions in Brazil" (1995) and there she wrote quite strongly
about Ed Keffel's photos _not_ being a hoax.

Considering that she and her family had seen UFOs on several
ocasions (and I seem to recall reading that there was even an
abduction), my question is: How reliable are her investigations,
specially the one of Onilson Patero's abductions and
teleportations?


Luis R. Gonzalez Manso







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                 Re: sTARBABY by Dennis Rawlins - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <editor@perceptions.couk.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 17:29:59 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 18:02:52 -0500
Subject: Re: sTARBABY by Dennis Rawlins - Dickenson


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>To: <- UFO - UpDates Subscribers -:>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: sTARBABY by Dennis Rawlins
>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:42:17 -0500

>Critics such as Fate, professional parapsychologists and
>moderate skeptics like former CSICOP cochairman Prof. Marcello
>Truzzi, sociologist at Eastern Michigan University, have
>questioned the Committee's commitment to objective, scientific
>investigation of paranormal claims and have accused some CSICOP
>spokesmen of misrepresenting issues and evidence. But such
>dissenting views were little noticed by media writers eager to
>headline sensational -- although frequently unsupported --
>debunking claims.


Hello List,

Congratulations for step into area where 'scientists' tend to be
irrational and where insults often thrown at _any_ impartial
inquirers.

"Science" is untrustworthy today - Why? Same reason all once-
dominant paradigms become untrustworthy: it's been hi-jacked by
those who would circumscribe thought and limit speculation.

Ancient paradigms - we now call them 'superstitions', 'cults',
'religions', etc. - were always taken over by privileged elites
and then used to preserve the infuence and power of the elites,
even to the point of contradicting the original paradigm.

So "religion" becomes the property of the greedy and the
murderous;

http://www.perceptions.couk.com/pauline.html

Now that's happening to "science"
Science should mean impartial (and unrestricted) questioning of
_all_ phenomena, to be answered by reproducible facts.

But scientific, impartial, non-abusive investigation is
effectively forbidden by the establishment.

Why?

Look around. Some would say that power elites are today
implementing anti-openness & anti-human policies in the name of
"science" just as the "Spanish Inquisition" did in the name of
religion.

With about the same justification - and _eventually_ the same
exposure and ignominy to follow exposure and ignominy.

A Warning

http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/history/0,6121,1075260,00.html

Part of P.D. Smith's Review of "Hitler's Scientists: Science, War
and the Devil's Pact" by John Cornwell

[Begin Quote]

The behavior of Heisenberg and other fellow travellers in the
Hitler period is central to Cornwell's argument. He concludes
that Heisenberg was "morally and politically obtuse". Although
not a Nazi, he was part of the corrupting culture of
"irresponsible purity" that allowed scientists to further their
careers while claiming to be politically and ethically insulated
from the regime.

Whether it was Max Planck giving the Nazi salute, or Von Braun
using slave labour at Peenem=FCnde, many scientists were tempted
"to do a deal with the Devil in order to continue doing science".
Such Faustian bargains can happen today; in America, $75bn a year
is spent by government on research. Relying on one powerful
paymaster is "dangerous", says Cornwell.

To avoid the mistakes of Hitler's Germany, Cornwell argues we
need scientists "who possess a highly developed grasp of politics
and ethics, who are prepared to question, probe, expose and
criticise the trends of military-dominated science". A role model
for such a "good scientist" might be Joseph Rotblat, the only
scientist at Los Alamos who resigned when he found out that
Germany didn't have the bomb. Like Brecht's Galileo, Rotblat has
called for scientists to swear a Hippocratic oath to underline
their responsibility to humanity. For, as Rotblat rightly says,
"a scientist is a human being first, and a scientist second".

[End Quote]

Present situation of 'science in society

Today large areas of phenomena are declared "off-limits" by
science elite.

How? - Simple ploy of labeling an area as "ridiculous",  "non-
respectable" then declaring any dangerous inquiry (not wanted by
science-elite) to be in that area.

Two examples:-

1) early "Astrology"

"Perceptions" speculates that early 'gross-effect' forecasting
was not astrology but merely basic physics, not concerned with
occult influences ("the Stars").

That is, that Chinese and Sumerian non-personal "astrology" was
probably based on real science - see:

http://www.perceptions.couk.com/uef/footnotes3.html#visitor

which, as we now realize, _can_ predict large effects such as
solar weather and seismic triggers from alignments of solar
system masses. See:

http://www.perceptions.couk.com/uef/checkalign.html


http://www.perceptions.couk.com/astrology.html

Further speculates that these large effects might then be
extrapolated to affect people. The number of such gross
alignments (and therefore number of people-groups): the
"Zodiac", was traditionally probably determined purely by the
evidence and by limitations of early data-collection. I.e.
evidence permitted at least twelve groups (see 12 year cycle &
Chinese 'stations of Jupiter') while any greater accuracy (using
say twenty-four groups) was simply not available at that period.

2) wider "Paranormal"

In the well researched field of medicine we now have remarkable
"mind-over-matter" results which defy established prognoses.
Simply put - "belief" changes "perception" and maybe even
"circumstance" - see:

http://www.perceptions.couk.com/magic2.html#2

Wider inquiries reveal that other mind-over-matter or impossible
phenomena seem to occur on a daily basis - flatly defying the
so-called "laws" of physics ( actually those "laws" are mostly
guesses - "blind science" in Google).

Some other "impossible" phenomena at:

http://www.perceptions.couk.com/ghosty.html#polt

Assessment of List correspondence:-

Most effort and time is spent arguing - from positions of
"belief" - two perennial disputes:-

1) that physical objects (or beings) were or were not seen
somewhere - neither side accepting 'proofs' of other side;

2) that non-physical objects (or beings) can or cannot exist -
neither side accepting (or even understanding) 'evidence' of
other side.

Reality

Contrary to received opinion there are _no_ laws of physics,
they're only guesses that are being proved wrong even as you
read this (see 'blind science' Google).

So we _should_ be devising candid, open-minded tests of
phenomena, not dismissing, concealing or bad-mouthing testimony
- as happens now.


Thinking hurts.

best regards
Ray Dickenson

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







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   Dec > Dec 2

                      Alleged Video Of Mexico City UFO?

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 14:01:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 18:05:36 -0500
Subject: Alleged Video Of Mexico City UFO?



The following message was received earlier today. The message is
unsigned and gives no hint as to the sender.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D

You will find below the address at which you can download some
of the sightings which took place on December 1st [2003] in the
Perif=E9rico-Defensa Nacional area of Mexico City.

Thanks are in order to:  Ing. Jose A. Oca=F1a, Ing. Hugo Rivera,
Ing. Humberto Rios, Ing. Francisco Madrazo, Ing. Alejandro
Rodriguez, Lic. Zu=F1iga, y a Veronica Aranda for their aid in
obtaining this material.

http://www.ufosshop.com/reportes.htm

This sighting is of interest because the presence of two (2) UFO
fleets was reported (the first fleet is the one which caused
other UFO research groups in the area to mobilize) and it
allowed the witnesses sufficient time to record the
extraordinary succession of events. This video shows only three
of the phases:

1. The second flotilla of spheres

2. A sphere

3. An elongated obejct.

Although events had already been forecast (sic), nothing of this
magnitude had been expected.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D








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                      sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:05:12 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 02:56:12 -0500
Subject: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:42:17 -0500
>Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:42:17 -0500
>Subject: sTARBABY by Dennis Rawlins

>Critics ...have
>questioned the Committee's commitment to objective, scientific
>investigation of paranormal claims and have accused some CSICOP
>spokesmen of misrepresenting issues and evidence.

>The story that follows, written by a man who is himself
>skeptical of the paranormal, confirms what critics of CSICOP
>have long suspected: that the organization is committed to
>perpetuating a position, not to determining the truth.

>(The Editors of FATE Magazine).

>...I am still skeptical of the occult beliefs CSICOP was created to
>debunk. But I have changed my mind about the integrity of some
>of those who make a career of opposing occultism. I now believe
>that if a flying saucer landed in the backyard of a leading
>anti-UFO spokesman, he might hide the incident from the
public...

>...How these things grow! In 1975 and 1976 it was just a dumb,
>arrogant mistake by only three CSICOP Fellows. In 1977 it was
>their BS report, deliberate deception-cover-up. The next year,
>1978, brought Kurtz's attempts first to bribe me and then
>(secretly) to eject me...

Dennis Rawlins' lengthy FATE Magazine account (excerpts above
and below) of CSICOP's cover-up and censorship of material plus
their vindictive tactics against people is exactly what I am
experiencing right now concerning my expose of Charles Moore's
Mogul balloon trajectory calculation hoax. Dave Thomas, another
of those CSICOP "Fellows", tried to defend Moore in the
March/April 2003 issue of the Skeptical Inquirer. Did he do it
by factually refuting my arguments? No, of course not! That
would have been too scientific of the Skeptical Inquirer. What
Thomas did was dodge my arguments and personally attack me.

Moore claimed to have used historical wind data and calculated a
trajectory taking his lost Mogul #4 directly to the Foster Ranch
crash site and, therefore, supposedly demonstrated that his
Mogul balloon accounted for the Roswell incident.

But when Brad Sparks and I went over his model and calculations
in his book "UFO Crash at Roswell: Genesis of a Modern Myth" we
discovered Moore had engaged in a little myth-making of his own.
Moore had flagrantly cheated with his math to get his balloon
there. We found many instances where he claimed to be doing one
thing, but did something else entirely, including secretly
changing his assumptions, making up false numbers (like 100/12 =
350 or 852/2.8 = 100 for rise rates), and finally miscalculating
his table to get his final trajectory (also contrary to the way
he said he was doing it).

A year ago, I first detailed all this on my website at:

www.roswellproof.com/flight4_trajectory

I was soon attacked by debunker Tim Printy on his website, and
again by Printy and Bruce Hutchinson on UFO UpDates. They badly
lost that debate, and Printy finally slunk away while
disingenuously proclaiming victory. On his website, Printy
claimed he stopped debating because of the insulting tone of my
posts.

Well, there is the given reason and then the _real_ reason. The
real reason was that Printy had no defense and was getting
pounded. There was no way he could defend Moore's math (100/12
does not equal 350 no matter how you try to spin it), and he
also got exposed at the end doing some lying and false data
manipulation of his own. (For a list of posts in that debate,
see "Math vs. Moore" and "Mogul Mangled Math" starting Oct. 9,
2002):

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/cgi-bin/search-email.cgi?index=/ufo/updates/&key
=drudiak

Now we come to Dave Thomas' Skeptical Inquirer article. Like
Printy, Thomas simply reproduced Moore's mathematically
incorrect calculation of his table to reproduce his phony
trajectory, proclaimed victory, and then attacked me as
"incompetent."

Regarding all my math arguments on my website pointing out
Moore's many math "mistakes," Thomas, like a good propagandist,
simply dismissed them as "quibbles" and "shrill accusations."
In other words, he didn't present them at all, not even the
super-simple and obvious ones like 100/12 does not equal 350. No
wonder Moore "didn't want to get into the math." (Why not,
unless there was no way to defend it?) Thomas, like Printy,
also tried to spin my charges against Moore as being merely
personal and nothing more than character assassination.

I found out about this article in the summer and started
drafting a rebuttal to it. (I might add that Brad Sparks added
a lot of helpful suggestions here.) I made note of drafting a
rebuttal on UpDates in July

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/jul/m11-012.shtml
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/jul/m12-021.shtml

A week later, Dave Thomas suddenly made an appearance on
UpDates, again claiming I was engaged in "character
assassination," and the whole debate represented nothing more
than "disagreements" over how to model:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/jul/m18-003.shtml

My detailed response to Thomas (which he never responded to,
because like Printy, he had no defense)

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/jul/m30-003.shtml
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/jul/m30-004.shtml

My final version of my Skeptical Inquirer rebuttal I sent off to
editor Kendrick Frazier along with a cover letter in
mid-October. The rebuttal is now up at my website, along with
my comments about how the S.I. article was in serious violation
of their own stated editorial policy. See:

http://www.roswellproof.com/Skeptical_Inquirer_response.html

I also went into this in my cover letter to Frazier, further
noting that the S.I. had also put themselves in the position of
aiding and abetting a hoax. I insisted that my rebuttal be
reprinted in full, stating that this was both the fair, not to
mention scientific thing to do. Real science journals have the
integrity to _always_ print rebuttals by persons whose work has
been attacked within their pages. There can be no meaningful
debate or science if one side is getting grossly misrepresented
and then censored when they try to respond.

>The next day [Skeptical Inquirer editor Kendrick] Frazier offered
>this alibi for nonpublication of my September 18 report: ...Frazier
>confessed to a "gut feeling" that I might be right in some of
>my criticisms.

>...When he read this Frazier blew his stack again
>and on November 9 wrote a memo declaring he had deleted only
>"one sentence from a late-added footnote." ...False -- there were
>in fact a dozen deletions.

>Frazier's letter conveniently confused his right to edit (which
>I never had questioned) with his right to alter the meaning of a
>brief note telling the reader where to obtain the unedited
>version...

Now we get to the current status of my rebuttal sent off to the
same Kendrick Frazier, who over 20 years ago censored Dennis
Rawlins because what Rawlins had to say was contrary to CSICOP
dogma and embarrassing to their ruling inner circle, like Paul
Kurtz, James Randi, Phil Klass, and the like.

My rebuttal and cover letter was sent over 6 weeks ago. I wrote
Frazier I was busy for a month (overseas visiting my son), but
then we could deal with it when I was available. I have heard
absolutely nothing from Frazier, not even a simple one-line
acknowledgement by email that my manuscript had been received.

Now maybe Frazier himself is busy or out-of-town. I'll give it
a few more weeks. But it is beginning to smell exactly like the
old, familiar Skeptical Inquirer M.O.: Circle the wagons to
protect your own people and CSICOPs religious skeptical dogma
and don't let the Skeptical Inquirer readers know what's really
going on. What they don't know won't hurt them. Or, in other
words, just another CSICOP cover-up.

They can easily disprove this by simply printing my rebuttal in
its entirety. We'll see.


David Rudiak







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                      Rumsfeld On The Known And Unknown

From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@presidency.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:57:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 03:01:06 -0500
Subject: Rumsfeld On The Known And Unknown



"Reports that say something hasn=92t happened are interesting to
me, because as we know, there are known unknowns; there are
things we know we know.We also know there are known unknowns;
that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But
there are also unknown unknowns =97 the ones we don=92t know we
don=92t know."

For this brilliant remark to a press briefing Donald Rumsfeld
was awarded the "Foot in Mouth" Prize by the Plain English
Campaign today.


Grant Cameron
www.presidentialufo.com/ufo_update.htm
--









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                            Re: Socorro - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:42:36 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 03:21:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Socorro - Harney


>From: James Easton <voyager@jeaston.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 04:41:10 -0000
>Subject: Socorro

>The following might be of interest:

>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/2217

>Please note inherent copyright and also the latest update
>at:

>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/2224


There are some problems with the hot-air balloon explanation
(which has previously been discussed at great length on this
List). The ones which occur to me are as follows:

1. There were very few such balloons in the USA at the time, so
it is thus odd that those did some research on them failed to
identify one which could have been drifting over Socorro on 24
April 1964. (It is also odd that the CIA should want to keep
secret any records they might have of experiments with hot-air
balloons at that time.)

2. Reports of the incident state that the wind was very strong.
In such conditions hot-air balloons can obviously become
unmanageable if they touch down

3. Even with a strong wind, it is difficult to see how a large,
low-flying balloon could have apparently escaped the attention
of everyone in Socorro apart from Zamora. I have seen hot-air
balloons and they are very conspicuous, even at a great
distance. It is puzzling that it managed to disappear from view
before anyone else got a chance to look at it, after Zamora had
drawn attention to it, it being impossible for such a device to
travel faster than the wind.

It is also of interest that no evidence has been discovered (to
my knowledge) which would suggest the possibility that Zamora
was telling anything but the truth about what he saw.

I think it would thus be unreasonable to say that the object
_must have_ been a balloon simply to remove it from the
"unexplained" list.


John Harney








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                  What Happened To Those That Took A Stand

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 19:18:28 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 03:30:28 -0500
Subject: What Happened To Those That Took A Stand


Folks,

There's so much data on this List it boggles the mind.

Yet, looking at the discussions about the 'Disclosure Project'
and other sources that have witnesses, documents, etc. it brings
to mind a review of what happens to people who do come forward
and either reported UFOs or alien abductions or whistleblowers.

Yes, we know they get mocked, harrassed, given the run around -
yet what's the solid history of this? Any books on the subject?

Beatings, financial ruin, career crushing, even rumors of
murder?

Knowing the history of the world I wouldn't put it past us.

Yet what's the documented story?


Best,

Greg









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                     Re: Norwood Photos On-line - Young

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 20:40:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 03:36:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Norwood Photos On-line - Young


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:25:08 -0500
>Subject: Re: Norwood Photos On-line

>I studied this case when I first came upon it back in the '70's.
>The lack of multiple photos is disappointing. It would be nice
>if there were a photo taken from a distance showing the beam
>going up at a slant angle, similar to the photo from the BOLA
>(Battle of Los Angeles) case where several searchlight beams
>converge on.... something.

>Also, the Norwood case was particularly frustrating to read
>because the detection of the object was a repeatable event for
>several days, yet there was no really scientific study of it.


Not so, according to the available information. Dr. Dare A.
Wells, UC physicist, and Professor Paul Herget, U.S. astronomer
(and later "vanguard" of the nation's space program) were
present in Norwood for several 'viewings.'

Herget was present on October 23 and December 20. On the evening
of December 20, Norwood mayor Ed Tepe was there and told Leonard
Stringfield, in an interview several years later, that Herget
and Wells worked closely with two AFOSI agents strangely named
"Eichleberger" and Eichlbarger."

Using the searchlight, a telescope, camera and protractor,
Herget and Wells calculated the object as holding a position 10-
miles up and comprised a mass of 10,000 feet in diameter.

New information on this case suggests that The Cincinnati
Astronomical Society (who we know to be Herget) alerted Wright
Field in nearby Dayton, Ohio and the 123rd Aircraft Control &
Warning Squadron, headquartered at Lunken Field in Cincinnati,
was instructed to check the radar for the object. This
information, according to recent testimony from a squadron
member, informs that the object was confirmed on radar and
closely watched 'round the clock' as it held its position over
Norwood for 30 days prior to its rapid departure out into space
(more info on this to be coming soon, KY)

In a newspaper account from April of 1950, Wells said: "In my
opinion, its an optical illusion." Herget, on the other hand,
said: "It's not a fake, I believe it may be due to the
illumination of gas in the atmosphere."

Herget was later interviewed by Cincinnati UFO investigator
Leonard Stringfield. The first thing Herget said was "Do you
have a security clearance?" at which point Stringfield said his
research was 'strictly civilian.' Stringfield, in his book
"Saucer Post 3-0 Blue," said: "Herget, turning red, replied
harshly "I take a dim view on UFOs, there is absolutely nothing
to it."

I reviewed Herget's files at the U.C. archives several years ago
and there was nothing to be found concerning his experiences at
Norwood.

So the available information suggests, quite strongly, that
there was, indeed, a 'study' of the Norwood UFO. The results of
that study remain concealed, it seems, in the realm of the
classified.

If there has ever been such a thing as 'insiders' involved with
UFOs, I think that Herget was one of them.

In addition to the 2 25-foot rolls of motion picture film
retained by Rev. Gregory Miller and last seen at WCPO Ch. 9
studios in Cincinnati in 1952 - from which the 2 photos at

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/norwoodphotos.html

were obtained - there were several good-quality photographs of
the Norwood UFO taken by Norwood police sgt. Leo Davidson and
held at the Norwood police department for several years, at
least until the mid 80s, when they were last seen in the
possession of several officers who presented the photos at a
Norwood Kiwanis Club meeting, where they were 'passed around'
from attendees (according to president of Norwood Historical
Society I interviewed in the late 1990s). At this point, the
photos were likely kept in the possession of a private
individual, possibly a retired police officer now living in
Florida perhaps, and are no longer at the department. I would
sure love to find those photos.....

Kenny Young
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo








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                    Re: 'About' Project Grudge - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:48:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 07:51:24 -0500
Subject: Re: 'About' Project Grudge - Aldrich


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 11:11:30 -0500
>Subject: Re: 'About' Project Grudge - Kaeser

>>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:48:30 -0200
>>Subject: Project Grudge

>>Source: About.com - UFOs/Aliens

>>http://ufos.about.com/library/weekly/aa022498.htm

<snip>

Thanks, Steve, for the recommendation. However, the more
we learn about this period, the more questions we have.

Shallet seems to have been a creature of Mr. Leo, the Public
Information Officer while General Cabell wanted nothing to do
with him. Apparently Shallet was given access to the UFO
incident records, but not the conclusions. Col. Clingerman said
in a memo that Project SIGN personnel did not discuss the
project's conclusion with him.

Project Grudge while mostly dismissive of UFOs, did some submit
certain cases for scientific review.

There are still significant items to be found from this period.
Interestingly enough pointers to documents and other discussions
come from other agencies' records and not those of the USAF.


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135








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                          UFO*BC Updates - 12-02-03

From: David Pengilly <davidpengilly@shaw.ca>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:47:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:01:02 -0500
Subject: UFO*BC Updates - 12-02-03


Hello UFO*BC Updates People,

It has been a long time since I have sent out an UFO*BC Updates
E-mail. Sorry about the long delay.

Dave Pengilly
UFO*BC

********************************************************

1) http://www.ufobc.ca/Supernatural/Forteana/ravens.htm

 - "A Strange Encounter With Ravens"
 - A very interesting story from Digby Island, 1969

2) http://www.ufobc.ca/Sightings/recent.htm

 - "Recently Reported BC Sightings"
 - With the help of NUFORC and HBCC UFO

3) http://www.ufobc.ca/Reports/Collection/index.htm

 - "The Collison Collection"
 - More UFO-related newspaper clippings
 - Many more to come
 - Thanks to Ken and Gwen Collison

4) http://www.ufobc.ca/Supernatural/Bigfoot/spindlecanyon.htm

 - "Deroche and Spindle Canyon Sasquatch Sightings"
 - Recent sightings of that elusive creature - Bigfoot!
 - Thanks to Ken Kristian

5) http://www.ufobc.ca/Supernatural/Cropcircles/cccrnnews.htm

 - Crop Circle Updates from CCCRN - http://www.cccrn.ca/
 - Visit their website for all the latest on Canadian Crop Circles
 - Thanks to Paul Anderson

6) http://www.ufobc.ca/yukon/l-triangle/l-triangle.htm

 - "Hovering Triangle Over Whitehorse"
 - A dramatic and recent sighting for the Yukon.
 - Many drawings by the witness.

7) http://www.ufobc.ca/yukon/under_guy_wire.htm

 - "It Flew Under The Guy Wire"
 - Another dramatic sighting from the Whitehorse area.
 - Excellent drawing by investigator Hans Grasholm

8) http://www.ufobc.ca/Store/historical-cd.htm

 - Archived UFO Audio Recordings on CD!
 - Originally on Vancouver Flying Saucer Club's reel-to-reel.
 - Betty & Barney Hill, Truman Berthurum, Daniel Fry and more.
 - Maybe a Christmas present for the UFO enthusiast?

9) http://www.ufobc.ca/History/2000/newwest11aug03.htm

 - "New Westminster Sighting and Video"
 - Multiple witnesses to a strange disc.
 - Visit the HBCC website to view the video.

10) http://www.ufobc.ca/Store/fall2003.htm

 - "Fall 2003 UFO*BC Magazine"
 - Our latest publication - superb as usual!

****************************************************************








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                Re: Elk Mutilation Investigor Needed - Belzil

From: Fern Belzil <fbelzil@telusplanet.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 19:59:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:04:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Elk Mutilation Investigor Needed - Belzil


>From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO  <hbccufo@telus.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 12:32:33 -0800
>Subject: Elk Mutilation Investigor Needed

>More breaking news. Now if anyone on this list is a investigator
>in this field, and who can get to this location quick, then I
>will forward the contact information to you. But please
>remember, I am only going to send one investigator to this case
>as I am sure the person who found this doesn't need a large
>amount of calls coming in, or emails. In other words not going
>to create a zoo with tons of folks running all over the place. I
>did contact NIDS, but their office is not open so I am trying to
>contact others in that area. I also have pictures and again,
>can't post them until my site is working fully. Jeff Rense may
>post the picture I have here and sent to him. So please drop by
>his site to keep an eye on this story. The witness to this tells
>me he has more pictures which I will ask for.

>Hello Brian. I have enjoyed your articles on Rense, and thought
>perhaps you would be interested in my story, or could point me
>to someone who would care to investigate.

>I live about 10 miles east of Cloudcroft, New Mexico, in a rural
>subdivision bordered by the Lincoln National Forest.


Hi:

I have been called to over 80 mutilations the last 6 years, one
was an Elk. Let me know what the location is and if I can help.
I will be posting pics of this Elk hopefully this week.

Fern Belzil
Investigator







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                 Re: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 00:44:47 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:18:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses - Gates


>From: Vince White <Vinceomni@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:19:45 EST
>Subject: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses

>Listers;

>There has been a long and vehement criticism of the DISCLOSURE
>PROJECT press conference for daring to mention such topics as;
>operational gravity control, zero point energy, space-based SDI,
>and deep conspiracies relating to a massive coverup.

Vince,

Lets look through the process from the Disclosure/Greer point of
view.

Concept 1. First any and all abduction/ET stories that involve
something bad are really counterfit abduction sprung by the evil
government to discredit ET. After all ET is the giant
benoveloent space brothers whose sole goal in the universe is to
help mankind with all of its problems blah blah blah. I disagree
with this theory. For sake of argument lets assume (low) that 10
percent of all abduction related stories are true. These are no
benovelent space brothers trying to help man kind.

Concept 2 Any person who comes forward and tells a story is to
be believed without checking the person out, without
investigating the story, without doing any further
research....as long as the story fits around concept 1.

The theory of believing anybody that is wagging a story is not
limited to UFO, but also happened in the militia movement. In
the 90s callers would call various radio talk shows and vomit
storys about how nation wide government raids on gun
owners/christians/whomever was going to shortly happen. Same
thing on Y2K when people were so convinced by various story
tellers that the end was at hand that they moved out to remote
housing retreats in the country side to ride out Armageddon...
only it never happened. Interestingly even though thousands of
people did this you can't find anybody today who will actual
admit that they believed all the crap and moved out to the
remote homes.

Concept 3 We don't need to check any witnesses out..we don't
have time because we are too busy gathering stories so we will
let the congressional committee do that. A few years ago on this
list somebody (Kevin Randle?) listed a number of Disclosure
witnesses who had problems. What needs to have happened is
_after_ the witnesses stories were checked out, verified,
military records checked friends interviewed, then you present
the story, and give the pile of documentation to the
Congressional committee and or press.

Concept 4 While to most of us, including Disclosure UFO/ET
represent an important issue, it is largely meaningless to the
folks in Congress who are concerned/preoccupied with very
earthly type issues such as medicare perscriptions, spending
bills, foreign policy and various other down to earth matters.
I read a story recently that mentioned out of 12 or 14 spending
bills which finance the govt for the current fiscal year we started
October 1 2003, only two are passed. Point being is that Congress
is so preoccupied with all that they do, they can't even get
government appropriations bills passed prior to October 1.

Bottom line is Disclosure needs to clean up their witness list
and be able to make the case to the powerful men and women in
Congress as to why the remaining witnesses are credible and
worth further examination by the committee.


Cheers,

Robert







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                   UFO/Screaming Woman Incident Continues

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:47:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:25:05 -0500
Subject: UFO/Screaming Woman Incident Continues

-----

From: Donnie Blessing <RDonolin@CS.COM>
To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:21:22 EST
Subject: Morehead, Ky. UFO/Screaming woman incident continues


Dear List:

I submit the following report for your consideration. The
mystery is deepening.


Donnie

---

At 11 A.M. today, December 2nd, 2003 I spoke with a Mrs. Cheryl
Woods (name changed, on file). I located Mrs. Woods thru
Infospace.com. When she answered the phone I explained the
reason I was calling. When I asked if she had been witness to an
unidentified flying object and screams of a woman, she replied
in a somewhat alarming tone saying "Oh yes! I saw it! So did my
daughter!"

Mrs. Woods explained that there is a field behind her house and
five properties are adjacent to this field. Behind her home
there is a small knoll and on the other side of the knoll is
where the field is, and up the hill from there is the house of
Mr. Davis (first witness to UFO). Mrs. Woods informed that there
are some trees in the field between her and the Davis house.

The importance for the property description is because the
alleged UFO "came down" in this particular field.

Around 5:30 P.M. on the day in question Mrs. Woods and her
daughter Sally (name changed, on file) were decorating the
outside of their home, putting up Christmas lights. Mrs. Woods
says she looked up and saw this "white light."

It was jumping and bouncing all over the sky. It began to
descend behind the trees. At one point Mrs. Woods said that it
reminded her of popcorn "popping up and down" from behind the
trees.

Mrs. Woods told her daughter to go inside the house and stay,
that she would finish up with the Christmas light. She said she
did because her daughter was apparently alarmed (Both mother and
daughter had a UFO sighting about this same time last year.)

Mrs. Woods says that she bent over for just a second taking her
eyes off the light and when she looked back up the light was
gone. She does not know if it flew away or landed behind the
trees.

Mrs. Woods then says that suddenly all the animals in the
neighborhood went into a frenzy. Every dog was barking and
howling and sounding like they were in a panic. She said that
her own little Chihuahua hid under the bed and cried in a
pitiful tone of voice. Mrs. Woods told me that she was afraid
that he had become ill but now he was feeling better.

At no time did Mrs. Woods or her daughter hear a
screaming woman.

Upon entering the house Mrs. Woods said that both her phone and
her daughters cell phone began to ring. On her daughter's phone
was her girlfriend asking Sally if she was OK. On Mrs. Wood's
phone was her first cousin asking the same question. Both mother
and daughter were perplexed and asked both parties on the phones
what was going on.

Both parties said there was activity on the police scanner, that
someone had reported a woman screaming on Skaggs Rd. and the
police were on their way. Both mother and daughter assured the
cousin and girlfriend that they were OK.

About that same time she saw flashing lights thru the window and
went to the door to see the Fire and Rescue squad. Without
getting out of the vehicle, the officer rolled his window down
and Mrs. Woods yelled thru the open door that they were OK and
that nobody had been screaming at their house. (NOTE: She did
not report the UFO sighting)

While Sally took another call from a concerned friend, Mrs.
Woods says she watched thru the window as more police arrived.
Both Life and police squads drove slowly down the street shining
their search lights into yards and between houses. Mrs. Woods
states that a state trooper also showed up and went down the
street.

After combing the whole area with searchlights the police and
Rescue squad departed.

I thanked the witness for her time and if I have more questions
I would call. She took my number and said she was going to see
if she can get some people to look in that field to see if
anything interesting could be found. I told her to call me ASAP
if anything is turned up


COMMENTS:

1. After talking to Mrs. Woods I called the Kentucky State
patrol. I gave the dates of both Dec. 23rd and Dec. 21st to the
dispatcher. She could find no record of a report of UFO
sightings or anyone being called out about a woman screaming on
Skaggs Road.

2. There is a wide discrepancy between the time Mrs. Woods and
Mr. Davis saw the UFO and heard the panicked animals. Mrs. Woods
states between 5:30 P.M. and 6 P.M. Mr. Davis says 10:00 P.M.
This is a mystery since I believe they described seeing the same
object and equally heard the commotion from the animals. I asked
Mrs. Woods several times if she was very sure of the time. She
stated that she was sure of the time because she wanted to wait
till dusk so she could try out the Christmas lights to see how
they looked.

3. Because of the time difference I became suspicious that
something else may be going on here. I asked Mrs. Woods if
anything unusual had gone on after the UFO sighting. She said
that she has a clock that chimes out of sync with the time. When
it was 8 o'clock the clock would chime 7 times. Her husband
noticed it around Thanksgiving when he got home from a business
trip, and she became aware of the problem at that time. He was
not home when the UFO incident occurred. He said it would have
to go to a clock shop to be repaired because he did not know how
to fix the problem. Also Mrs. Woods told me that the next
morning after the UFO sighting she awoke to a terrible nose
bleed. She said they have been frequent since the sighting and
has never had nose bleeds before. She attributes the nose
bleeds to the house being too dry. She says her daughter has
had nose bleeds for years off and on but she has never had one.
After hearing these comments, I became suspicious that she was
familiar with UFO material. I must stress that she was not
prompted on these questions and offered them out of the blue. I
then asked her if she read UFO material before and she said: "Oh
no, I don't read anything, I've only watched X-Files a few times
on TV."

4. While I was talking to Mrs. Woods on the phone her daughter
(13-years old) came in from school. Her daughter states that
she had been talking to a friend on the bus. This friend is the
son of Dr. Davis (first witness). He had told Sally that the
screaming sounds seemed to be a woman that was "being torn
apart."  The scream was so blood curling and horrible, he told
her on the bus.

5. Mrs. Woods said that her house had been broken into not long
ago. She called the police and despite the department being less
than 2-minutes from her home, it took law officers 20-minutes to
arrive. The intruder-who was walking around the house-remained
in the home while she awaited the arrival of the police, but the
police did not catch the intruder.

6. During the UFO sighting, the 13-year old daughter looked
frightened and said in a groan: "Oh no, not again, I'm beginning
to think we are not safe around here anymore." Since the UFO
sighting, Mrs. Woods says that her daughter does not want to
stay in her room and leaves the door open when going in the
bedroom (she used to lock the door) and now sleeps in the same
room with her mother.

7. I am most perplexed by the time difference. Her UFO sighting
was nearly 4-hours before Dr. Davis reportedly saw the same
object with same animal reaction. I will not venture a guess in
this regards, but let others interpret data.

8. Mrs. Woods is formerly in the Air Force, a paratrooper who
also held a security clearance. She is now disabled from a back
injury caused while jumping out of an airplane. She is
intelligent and articulate. I think she is a credible witness.

-----

Filed 12/02/03
Donnie Blessing
Southern Ohio Section Director MUFON






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   Dec > Dec 3

                    Creston British Columbia Missing Time

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 23:37:26 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:31:46 -0500
Subject: Creston British Columbia Missing Time


Creston, British Columbia

Date:  November 25, 2003
Time:  approx: 9:20 p.m.

Two men driving from Creston, British Columbia along highway 3
heading west towards Fruitvale, B.C. saw briefly a number of
bluish lights off into the distance, heading east towards their
direction at a very low altitude. As they drew closer, the
lights seemed to spread out and all of a sudden and all of the
blue lights blinked out approx: one mile in front of them. The
two men thought was rather strange as they had never witnessed
anything like this before. The witnesses could not make out any
type of shape, or structure as everything took place rather
quickly. Mind you they both mentioned that there may not have
been any body to the lights. It wasn't until the fellows were at
junction (highway #3 and #6) did they wonder where approx 25
kilometers.

Both men sat stunned, the driver pulled the car to the side of
the road and the two guys just sat and looked at one another for
a couple of seconds, then starred out the front windshield not
saying a word to one another. Finally after a few minutes of
silence the passenger turned to the driver and asked what the
heck just happened and how did we get to the junction when they
knew they still had a large number of kilometers to travel.  The
passenger then noticed a trickle of blood running down from the
drivers right nostril which alarmed him to know end. The driver
used his hand to wipe around his nose area and then found blood
on his hand, be started to panic due to all this strange things
that just took place. Immediately the driver put the vehicle in
gear and started traveling north on Highway #6 towards Samo
picking up speed as they drove along. The evening was very cool
outside, but inside the vehicle it was rather warm. With both
men shivering with coldness (from fright and a possible
experience) the passenger turned the heaters temperature up to
high and both of the fellows were still not able to get warm and
comfortable. Very frightened, cold and an over whelming thrust
coming on they traveled along almost in shock.

After traveling a good distance to their destination which was
Fruitvale, B.C., they arrived at a family members home, got out
of the vehicle and as they walked up the sidewalk to the door,
the diver broke down. His friend told me his nerves were shot at
this point.

A family member had seen the vehicle and the fellows pull into
the driveway I was going out to greet them both when she saw her
loved one bent over crying hysterically. She yelled out loudly
and two other people in the home ran out to lend a hand with the
man. The family was very upset as you can imagine and questioned
the men to find out what was wrong, not imagining what they were
about to hear. After some time a hot bath everyone settled in
for the night.

Both men trying their darnedest to get some sleep, which wasn't
easy after what just happened, finally they dropped off only to
start having vivid dreams. One of the fellows remembers being in
an object. He did not know exactly what it was. But in his dream
he did believe it was a room of some type. So I am trying to
work with him to see if he can remember any thing else.

Case ongoing.


Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com








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                Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Scherk

From: William Scott Scherk <wss@uniserve.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 02:00:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:58:16 -0500
Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Scherk


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:05:12 -0800
>Subject: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?


Rudiak writes:

>Dennis Rawlins' lengthy FATE Magazine account (excerpts above
>and below) of CSICOP's cover-up and censorship of material
>plus their vindictive tactics against people is exactly what
>I am experiencing right now concerning my expose of Charles
>Moore's Mogul balloon trajectory calculation hoax.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/dec/m03-001.shtml

Skeptical Inquirer and its publishers work against what they see
as pseudoscience, irrational beliefs, and dangerous quackery.

Some may believe that a Mogul flight provides a reaonable
explanation for the initial Roswell flap.

Dave Thomas is one such person:

'What is the bottom line on the Roswell Incident, NYU, and
Project Mogul? In Moore's words, "When the wind information is
coupled with the similarities in the debris described by the
eyewitnesses - the balsa sticks, the 'tinfoil,' the tape with
pastel, pinkish-purple flowers, the smoky gray balloon rubber
with a burnt odor, the eyelets, the tough paper, the
four-inch-diameter aluminum pieces and the black box - to the
materials used in our balloon flight trains, it appears to me
that it would be difficult to exclude NYU Flight 4 as a likely
source of the debris that W. W. Brazel found on the Foster ranch
in 1947." From "The Roswell Incident and Project Mogul"

http://www.csicop.org/si/9507/roswell.html

On the one hand we have a limited circulation magazine
(approximately 40,000 subsribers) publishing comments such as
those from Thomas; on the other hand we have evidence that these
have little impact, such results of a 2002 Roper poll:

"More than two-thirds of Americans say that the government is
not telling the public everything it knows about UFO activity
(72 percent) or extraterrestrial life (68 percent)."

See:

http://www.scifi.com/ufo/roper/04.html

Put this alongside findings from a 1997 Time/CNN poll.

"As for the Roswell incident, nearly two-thirds of the
respondents to the poll said they believed that a UFO crash-
landed in a field outside the New Mexico town 50 years ago
next month."

See;

http://edition.cnn.com/US/9706/15/ufo.poll/ ]

Why give time and effort to debunking the debunkers? It doesn't
seem to me that CSICOP has made much of a dent in majority
beliefs.

If the publishers, editors and writers associated with SI came
on over to Rudiak's side tomorrow, would it make much of a
difference?


William Scott Scherk
http://www.wsse.ca







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                     Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Hale

From: Roy Hale - The Lost Haven <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:11:09 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 11:03:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Hale


>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:48:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions

>>>Have you stopped beating your wife, yes or no?

>>Dear Jan,

>>I am afraid that I have never been married.

>That is not one of the acceptable answers.


Dear Jan,

I just looked up in the index of UK answers, and it sits very
well.


Roy








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                     Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 10:12:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 16:28:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Shell


>From: Roy Hale <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 23:23:15 -0000
>Subject: Ufology - Ten Questions

>1: If after many years in Ufology, you arrive at the fact, that
>ET has arrived here on this planet, should you be considered
>someone who has a 'Closed Mind'?

Do I have a "closed mind" because I think I'm typing at a
computer keyboard? It seems to be there under my fingers. I
could argue persuasively for its existence. But I do realize
that my perceptions can be faulty. And I have been led to
understand that with quantum fluctuations and all that, the
keyboard only partially exists in the dimensions I can perceive.
And maybe the Buddha was onto something, and this is all just
an illusion. So I like to think that because I understand these
things, I could be wrong about the keyboard. That should
qualify me as someone with an "open mind." I do seem to be
typing on something, though.

>2: If yes to the above, does this mean that the choice of being
>a sceptic is the only one available to UFO research?

The "choice" of being a skeptic is the only one available for
anyone with an inquisitive, rational mind. But there's a
difference between approaching an unknown with the attitude, "I
must find a reason for this that fits comfortably with my
personal beliefs," and "I'll see if it can fit something I
understand, but if it doesn't, I'm willing to hold off on any
explanation of it. I can simply admit I don't know."

>3: If you believe ET has arrived, does this make you less of a
>person to debate with?

A good debater should be able to skillfully argue either side to
the point where you can't tell what their personal beliefs are.

>4: How closely should UFO researchers align themselves with
>Government agencies?

How closely should a UFO researcher align himself with any
organization that has an agenda, stated or hidden?

>5: Should censorship play an important role in closing debates,
>if answers are not forthcoming?

Debates should be closed (or at least paused) when each side has
had an equal opportunity to present their arguments. Some
debates never produce answers, as such, but hopefully they
stimulate other lines of inquiry.

However, in the absence of new information, or a new
interpretation of old information, there is such a thing as
beating a dead horse.

>6: Is UFO research a subject for _free_ thinkers, or is there a
>line to toe?

There's a certain degree of free thinking necessary in any
endeavor, whether it's researching UFOs or designing toilets.
And you're free to think of the subject any way you please. If
you don't care what other people think, that's just fine. You
can sit in your room and bask in the warmth of your special
knowledge.

However, once you feel compelled to leave that room and convince
someone else of your reasoning or beliefs, then you must take
into account the reasoning and beliefs of the person you're
trying to convince. What might be good enough for you, might not
be good enough for them.

If that's a problem for you, then it might be best to stay in
your room.

>7: Who patented UFO thought as non-ET related?

Jacques Vallee is, I suppose, generally known for proposing a
non-ET possibility for UFOs. Charles Fort or someone else might
have done so before him. Who first thought the odd lights in the
sky were gods?

>8: How far should one use, web stats tracking as evidence of
>inquiry?

Quality is more important than the source. How quality is judged
is debatable.

>9: How far should personal prejudice play a role in your UFO
>research?

By simply choosing to do UFO research (as opposed to studying
bumblebees), you've already made a personal, subjective
judgment. You're certainly free to study UFOs any way you want.
But, again, the minute you want to convince someone else of your
conclusions, you need to accommodate their requirements for
proof.

>10: Should any researcher, be treated as an unreliable
>candidate for UFO research DATA if they have used illegal drugs
>- past or present?

All data is qualified. The drug usage just adds another
qualification. If you can smoke dried grasshopper legs and
channel plans for an alien warp drive engine, hey, that's great.
But you can see how it would help your argument if the engine
actually worked.








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   Dec > Dec 4

                      Best Cases Of The 90's or 2000's?

From: Minna Hyvonen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:11:06 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:52:24 -0500
Subject: Best Cases Of The 90's or 2000's?


Many times, when the best cases are asked for, the list only
contains old-ones.

But do you folks consider any of the new cases, less than 10
years-old, worthy of listing in the best cases ranking-list? If
so, which cases should they be?

Especially good-ones should be those in the respondents _own_
country. A little brief of the cases would be a nice way to tell
why the case is worthy of listing. Maybe 5 to 10 best-ones
would be a good number?


Asking,

Minna H







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                     Re: Congress and Disclosure - White

From: Vince White <Vinceomni@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:19:22 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:56:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure - White


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 00:44:47 EST
>Subject: Re: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses

>Concept 4 While to most of us, including Disclosure UFO/ET
>represent an important issue, it is largely meaningless to the
>folks in Congress who are concerned/preoccupied with very
>earthly type issues such as medicare perscriptions, spending
>bills, foreign policy and various other down to earth matters

Listers;

If what Robert says about Congress were true, then we are indeed
led by foolish and short term political partisans. The gulf
between the public and private is as night and day.

There is nearly constant UFO traffic & related incidents dealt
with by the USSC & other agencies. Key members of oversight
committees know and understand this reality. There is leakage
from military involved in ET matters to back channeling members
of congress. George Knapp wrote, over ten years ago, of behind
closed door inquiries with threats of contempt of congress.
Intense inquiries have been made at the highest levels -
concluding with a stonewall of denial and that the oversight
process has broken down.

Just as key aerospace journalists have very private libraries on
UFOs (personal source) some members of congress must have
theirown stealthy UFO libraries kept carefully out of public
view. To not think this is happening is to deny the intellectual
curiosity shown publicly on other issues.

The uniform UFO silence is continued by key members because of
how explosive this taboo issue is. To say anything is totake on
hidden powers institutionalized since the Truman administration.
It means an act of politicalcourage unique in history. The
hearings ofthe past were not even hinting at the far larger
issues in public view now.

I believe there are men & women of visionwho fully understand
the leap of going public and are waiting for the political cover
of a UFO breakout event.

There is no perfect time. Once the press has grasped the 50 plus
year hoax perpetrated on them, they will fuel the firestorm of
questions. The words; "massive coverup" which are whispered
today will be on front pages everywhere.

Behind closed doors some wise members of congress must have
carefully considered these issues andeven drafted speeches on
this. Key members of Congress have quietly stealthily back
chanelled because it was the only way to try to find out what is
going on.

Some members of congress do take UFO/ET reality seriously & know
its relevance, but no one wants to be open first - yet. Perhaps
several have already formed a clandestine special group to do
this. Some may rise to this historic challenge yet. Leadership
arises mysteriously at timesofhistoric demand.

The alternative is a gloomy ignorance hard to even fathom.


Vince White







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   Dec > Dec 4

               Re: Rumsfeld On The Known And Unknown - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:03:01 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:57:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Rumsfeld On The Known And Unknown - Shough


>From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@presidency.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:57:58 -0500
>Subject: Rumsfeld On The Known And Unknown

>"Reports that say something hasn't happened are interesting to
>me, because as we know, there are known unknowns. There are
>things we know we know.We also know there are known unknowns;
>that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But
>there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we
>don't know."

>For this brilliant remark to a press briefing Donald Rumsfeld
>was awarded the "Foot in Mouth" Prize by the Plain English
>Campaign today.

Ironically, considering that this is an interesting example of
very plain English appearing to confuse a subtle point that
actually makes sense!


Martin Shough







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   Dec > Dec 4

                Re: Anomaly Archives Lending Library Opens -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:07:26 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:05:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Anomaly Archives Lending Library Opens -


>From: Stephen Miles Lewis <ufoupdates@elfis.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@sympatico.ca> <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 16:17:30 -0600
>Subject: Anomaly Archives Lending Library Opens

<snip>

>For over ten years I've dreamed of founding a research lending
>library to house my ever-growing book, magazine and clipping
>collections. Well, that dream is finally a reality. Thanks to
>serendipity and a friendship with Bob McGarey (see Ray
>Stanford's Socorro Saucer in a Pentagon Pantry) of the Human
>Potential Center, my archives have a home in which to birth this
>project.

Congratulations!  Things _are_ bigger in Texas!

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)








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   Dec > Dec 4

                          Last Call For UFO Debate

From: Nick Pope <nick@popemod.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:12:46 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:13:47 -0500
Subject: Last Call For UFO Debate


List,

A few tickets are still available for next week's UFO debate at
the Science Museum. Chris French, Paul Devereux and I will be
debating the UFO phenomenon on Tuesday December 9, at the
Science Museum's new Dana Centre.

The Dana Centre is a new, purpose-built, multi-million pound
venue adjacent to the Science Museum's existing site in South
Kensington, London. The centre is a modern venue where people
can discuss controversial and challenging issues in science.
It's all about contemporary science and how it impacts on people
and society. It's audience-led, with attendees encouraged to
take an active role and air their opinions.

People wishing to attend and take part should telephone
020 7942 4040 for details, or check out the Dana Centre website
at the link below:

http://www.danacentre.org.uk/



Best wishes,

Nick Pope






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                Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Morton

From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 19:27:38 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:15:33 -0500
Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?  - Morton


>From: William Scott Scherk <wss@uniserve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 02:00:11 -0800
>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:05:12 -0800
>>Subject: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?


>Rudiak writes:

>>Dennis Rawlins' lengthy FATE Magazine account (excerpts above
>>and below) of CSICOP's cover-up and censorship of material
>>plus their vindictive tactics against people is exactly what
>>I am experiencing right now concerning my expose of Charles
>>Moore's Mogul balloon trajectory calculation hoax.

>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/dec/m03-001.shtml

>Skeptical Inquirer and its publishers work against what they see
>as pseudoscience, irrational beliefs, and dangerous quackery.

>Some may believe that a Mogul flight provides a reaonable
>explanation for the initial Roswell flap.

>Dave Thomas is one such person:

<snip>

Mr. Scherk,

Please contact me immediately regarding a property in New York
which I'm authorized to part with for pennies on the dollar. Our
family has been the owner/custodian of this property for years,
but needs to raise some money to restructure recent debt
incurred by our Fund due to the lengthy Market erosion and
declining liquidity of various family assets.

It offers a beautiful view of Brooklyn, and can be modified
to have troll booths - I mean, "toll booths", installed at
each end, providing a continuous cash flow for the owner,
well into the next Century and beyond.

We hope to place our treasured property in the hands of a
caretaker/trustee with a single-minded vision who will
understand and appreciate the value of what he's acquired.


Dave Morton

Fund Administrator






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               Re: Rumsfeld On The Known And Unknown - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:05:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:27:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Rumsfeld On The Known And Unknown - Rudiak


>From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@presidency.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:57:58 -0500
>Subject: Rumsfeld On The Known And Unknown

>"Reports that say something hasn't happened are interesting to
>me, because as we know, there are known unknowns; there are
>things we know we know.We also know there are known unknowns;
>that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.
>But there are also unknown unknowns: the ones we don't know
>we don't know."

>For this brilliant remark to a press briefing Donald Rumsfeld
>was awarded the "Foot in Mouth" Prize by the Plain English
>Campaign today.

I don't know, Grant. It makes perfect sense to me. It is not
unknown to know such things, whether they are known knowns,
unknown knowns, or known unknowns, you know. What is not a known
known, however, is how to transform an unknown known into a
known unknown, and vice versa. We don't even know if we don't
know how to do this.


Hope this clears things up.

David Rudiak






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                    Re: 'About' Project Grudge - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:38:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:01:05 -0500
Subject: Re: 'About' Project Grudge - Maccabee


>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:48:30 -0200
>Subject: Project Grudge

>Source: About.com - UFOs/Aliens>

>http://ufos.about.com/library/weekly/aa022498.htm

>Wednesday, 16-Jul-2003

<snip>


I would like to add another much less well known, but at least
as impressive sighting: May 24, 1949, Rogue River , Oregon.
This sighting is Case 10 of Special report #14 (although you
wouldn't know that from reading only the short summary in Case
10). I invite you to read all about it at:

http://brumac.8k.com/Rogue/RogueRiver.html







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                    Re: Norwood Photos On-line - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:38:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:03:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Norwood Photos On-line - Maccabee


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:50:34 -0500
>Subject: Re: Norwood Photos On-line

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:25:08 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Norwood Photos On-line

>>>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:45:05 -0500
>>>Subject: Norwood Photos On-line>

>>>To see images of the little-known Norwood UFO of 1949, a
>>>legendary incident involving Army Sgt. Donald R. Berger, see:

>>>http://home.fuse.net/ufo/norwoodphotos.html

>I studied this case when I first came upon it back in the '70's.
>The lack of multiple photos is disappointing.

>Honesty, Bruce, you must not have done much of a study!

>The photos are frame prints from a 16 mm movie.

>Got that? A movie! So there were many photos!

Yeah, got that. How many are available from the 25 feet of film?
One (yours)? I studied this case many years ago and don't recall
the details. Will have to look in my records. My recollection is
that the case is in the Blue Book file at the National Archives.
I don't recall any mention in the file of a movie, just
documents and a photo.

But that was nearly 30 years ago (middle 70's). Anyway I haven't
seen the movie.

>>It would be nice
>>if there were a photo taken from a distance showing the beam
>>going up at a slant angle, similar to the photo from the BOLA
>>(Battle of Los Angeles) case where several searchlight beams
>>converge on.... something.

>You must need glasses, too, Bruce. The movie clearly shows the
>spotlight beam going up to the object.

That's nice. If it were possible to determine the azimith and
elevation of the beam, the relative locations of the projector
and camera and either the azimuth or elevation of the movie
camera it might be possible to estimate the height of the
obejct. If the focal length of the camera is known, one could
then estimate the size. (Might also estimate the size from the
beam divergence if the altitude can be determined.)

>Furthermore, in one short frame sequence, the movie shows that
>although the spotlight beam (at that time) is pointing several
>.degrees away from the object of interest, when the beam gets >
>within a certain radius of the object, the beam appears to
>>become anomalously bent several degrees back directly onto the
>object! I have an frame print enlargement of one such frame from
>the movie.

Who made the movie? In this case there weren't "bombs bursting
in air" to clutter up the atmosphere with smoke, as in the BOLA
case.







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                     'Bizarre Screams' Update - 12-04-03

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:16:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:48:43 -0500
Subject: 'Bizarre Screams' Update - 12-04-03


At 8:10 P.M. tonight, December 3rd, 2003 I spoke to a Mrs. Huff
(real name on file)). I asked her if I could speak with her
daughter, Nancy (real name on file)). I had obtained her
number from Nancy's friend, Chris Woods (name also withheld on
file). I asked Nancy if she could tell me more about what was
said on the police scanner the night of the screaming woman
incident. Mrs. Huff said that Nancy was at a basketball game and
I then asked if she knew anything about the incident.

Mrs. Huff said that her husband was a volunteer with the Fire
and Rescue squad and that he told her a call had came into the
station from someone saying that they saw 'a woman with a baby'
that was walking around on a hill, and that 'a spaceship' came
down and took the baby and the woman began to scream.

Mrs. Huff then asked her husband if it was a crazy woman who
might have needed mental help and he said that he did not know
who it was.

At this point I was shocked. I asked Mrs. Huff to repeat what
she said. There was a loudly crying child on her lap that made
it hard to hear. She said that story is what was being passed
around at the station.

I stumbled over my words while trying to calmly ask if I could
speak to her husband. Mrs. Huff said that he was not home (he
would not be home until about 9:30 P.M.). I asked if she thought
he would talk to me about this and she said yes, that he would
talk to me. She also said that her husband would know the time
the call came in. I told her that I appreciated her talking to
me and that I would call back at 9:30.

At 9:35 P.M. on December 3rd, 2003 I spoke to a Mr. C. Huff
(real name on file)). Mr. Huff is a volunteer for the Fire and
Rescue squad in Morehead, Ky.

Mr. Huff explained that he had been lying on the bed listening
to the scanner and had not been on duty that day. He thought
that the time was somewhere between 4-6 A.M.

He went on to say that it was a man who called and said that
there was a woman in a field screaming. He did not know who the
person was that called. I asked Mr. Huff if he was totally
certain that the time was between 4-6 A.M. and he said that he
would check and for me to call him tomorrow.

Mr. Huff went on say that he had heard that one person in the
team searching for the screaming woman was approached by a man
while they were in the vicinity of the Kentucky State Patrol
outpost and Skaggs Rd. This man walked over to one of the
officers and stated that he had seen the whole thing. He told
the officer that he saw "a woman in a field and that a spaceship
had came down and had taken the woman."

I asked Mr. Huff if he could tell me who this officer was and he
stated he did not know. He did not know if it was a police
officer or a member of the rescue team.

This was second hand information to him. I asked if he could
find out for me and he stated that he would not be allowed to
give the persons name or the officer's name.

Mr. Huff went on to recount another incident that occurred one
or two days after the report of the screaming woman. He says
that a woman had called the station to complain that a child
about two years old had been seen walking down route 60 in
Morehead "wearing only a diaper."

The woman had been returning home from her niece's house, she
had turned off Route 32 onto Rt. 60 headed west to Salt Lick
when she spotted the child. She immediately called the police.
When they arrived the child was gone. No missing child was ever
reported according to Mr. Huff. Mr. Huff did not state if the
woman had left the scene where the child was to call the police.
Further investigation into this, I feel, is warranted.

I then asked Mr. Huff if there was anything else he could offer
on the incident of the screaming woman and he said no. I thanked
Mr. Huff for his time and told him I would call back to see if
he had found the correct time of the call.

COMMENTS

Mr. And Mrs. Huff had different stories. There seemed to be some
confusion as to where the baby fit into the story. I left all
comments intact as reported to me since we do not have the full
true account yet.

This case has escalated in intensity, being made that much more
stranger by the alleged eyewitness sighting of a woman being
'taken' by a UFO.


Filed 12/03/03
Donnie Blessing
Southern Ohio Section Director MUFON

(NOTE: A written request for written reports and 9-1-1
police tapes to the Morehead Police Department on this
incident is pending. See website:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo

for a special index page created solely for this event - KY)







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                          Filer's Files #49 - 2003

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:59:44 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:11:26 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #49 - 2003


Filer's Files #49 - 2003 Skywatch Investigations.
George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
December 3, 2003, Webmaster: Chuck Warren -
My website is at: www.georgefiler.com/

Sightings High on East Coast of US

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. This week's files investigate New Jersey -
 Possible Abductions A Catlike "Puma" Formation on Mars?
Yellowstone Park 2,100 Foot Bulge Could Possibly Explode, Maine
- Triangle Shape Flying Mountain, New York - Cigar Shaped Object
Flying Fast Near JFK Airport, Pennsylvania - Flying Circle Of
Lights and Big Foot spotted, Maryland - Sighting Of A Huge
Diamond Shape UFO, Virginia - Pretty Weird Lights Moving In The
Woods, Georgia - Pulsing Ball With Low Burning Lights, Florida -
 Bluish-White Glowing Objects In The Shape of a Flying Triangle,
Wisconsin - Hunter Spots Flying Triangle, Illinois - Possible
Flying Triangle Caught on Tape, Minnesota - They are back BIG
time!, Missouri - Cigar Shaped Slow Moving Haze Or Shadow,
Oklahoma - Crescent Shaped Lights Changing Into "Rockets" With
Red Flames, Texas - Gray Cylinder and Large Triangular Craft,
New Mexico - Mother and Son See UFO, California - Cloud-like
Saucer Shape, Washington - A Triangular Craft Spotted, Canada -
 Three Maneuvering Lights, UK/England - Rectangle UFO, Virgin
Islands - A Bright Orange Object Buzzes Cruise Ship, and
Australia - Three UFOs


ASTRONAUT NEIL ARMSTRONG SAYS "THERE IS LIFE IN SPACE"

CAPE CANAVERAL - Astronaut Neil Armstrong says, "Life is out
there somewhere." The first human to set foot on a place beyond
Earth found an airless, waterless, lifeless moon. Nevertheless,
Neil Armstrong is convinced life thrives elsewhere in the
cosmos. "We have no proof," said Armstrong, who stepped onto the
moon 30 years ago. "But if we extrapolate, based on the best
information we have available to us, we have to come to the
conclusion that ... other life probably exists out there and
perhaps in many places."

New Jersey - Possible Abductions Need Investigation

MULLICA HILL - Dear Mr. Filer, My name is Shelley and I have
been an abductee all of my life. This evening I had decided to
look into finding an abduction support group in my area and
instead came across a Sightings article you had written on
Mullica Hill. You see, I live in Mullica Hill about fifteen
miles from the Philadelphia Airport and have for the past
sixteen years The date that you give of May 9, 1998, for another
abduction seems to coincides with an incident of my own.

I'm not even sure what is compelling me to write you tonight. My
hands are shaking as I type this. You see, I have a four year
old son who has already had some incidents. And I have a 17-
month-old daughter. They were the main reason that I was
looking for a group tonight. I didn't find a group but I did
find you and I have learned to follow the compulsion. Cryptic
isn't it, but I don't know what else to say. Thanks, Shelley

A Catlike "Puma" Formation on Mars?

Mac Tonies writes, On page 24 of the Cydonian Imperative, I
published a brief paper called "The Out-of-Frame Hypothesis as
Applied to MGS Image #M0202619" by J.P. Levasseur, a member of
the Society for Planetary SETI Research (SPSR). Levasseur, who
maintains that some of the apparent profile images seen on the
Martian surface deserve serious scientific consideration,
arrived at his "out-of-frame" technique by noting the partial
likeness of a puma (or similar feline). Since the Mars Global
Surveyor image showing the candidate "puma" happened to
terminate where the "tail" should be - if the formation was
deliberately constructed to resemble a large cat - Levasseur
surmised that future images showing the region of the
hypothetical "tail" would help prove or disprove his hunch that
the "puma" was an intentional work of landscape art. Thanks to
Mac Tonies Cydonian Imperative.

Editor's Note: Researchers have found a large number of artistic
objects on Mars resembling various animals and human like faces.
Although the Face on Mars is the most famous, there seems to be
almost too many to be accidental, indicating the work of
intelligence. Lets assume intelligent life forms once lived on
Mars and they were aware the planet was losing much of its
atmosphere. They may have chosen to make likenesses of the
animals on their planet.


YELLOWSTONE 2,100 Foot Bulge Could Possibly Explode

YELLOWSTONE NATIONAL PARK, Wyoming - Far below the blue waters
of Yellowstone Lake, a mysterious dome 2,100 feet across and 100
feet high is causing concern among scientists and people who
don't know whether it's a harmless curiosity or a hazard on the
verge of exploding. The dome, also called a bulge or an elevated
plain, is less than a mile from shore and was recently explored
by researchers with the US Geological Survey, using unmanned
submarines and sonar. "It could be the precursor to a
hydrothermal explosion," said Lisa Morgan, a geologist leading
the team. "It's a pretty significant feature." Thanks to David
Kelly - Los Angeles Times

Maine - Triangle Shape Flying Mountain

CAMDEN - I saw a bright odd-shaped star through my bedroom
window on November 16, 2003, facing southeast in a valley toward
the coast of Camden, Maine (about 22 miles away). It caught my
attention because it was brighter than any other star around at
11 PM, on a very clear night. It was also twinkling with dots of
colored light pulsing slightly down to the right and left sides,
that indicated a flat triangle shape. The top of the triangle
was the center in a mountain shape vs. a V-shape. The colors I
saw in order of most occurrences where green, red, blue. I got a
pair of binoculars and stared for a while, but couldn't see
detail. I looked at the other stars around the bright spot, and
there where many, and they were all fuzzy and seemed much
farther away than this pulsing star. It was the color moving it
"dots" away from the center that fascinated me the most. After
about 30 minutes I went to bed. The bright spot had shifted out
of the windowpane to the south slowly. Thanks to Peter Davenport

BOOTHBAY HARBOR - The witness who describes himself as working
in the U. S. military writes, "This is the second report in the
last two days concerning UFOs that hover in the sky that first
appear to be bright stars twinkling/flashing." On November 13,
2003, I once again saw these UFO's in a clear sky for about
thirty minutes before the clouds rolled in. As my eyes adjusted
to the dark, I noticed many of these UFO's that are all around
the night sky. With binoculars, it is clear they are disc/oval
shaped with green, blue, and red lights flashing around, and are
perfectly still in the sky. One closer object had a flashing red
light in the center, with blue and green lights circling around
it. It was about mile high, and had smaller objects of the same
description all around it. Perhaps it was a Mothership? These
craft are appearing more often in the last few weeks and are
disguised to the naked eye as very bright stars, but there are
colored lights. What I ask people to do is, if they see a star
that seems to be twinkling very brightly, LOOK CLOSER. Thanks to
Peter Davenport UFOcenter

New York - Cigar Shaped Object Fling Fast Near JFK Airport

NEW YORK CITY (QUEENS) - The witness was heading home from JFK
airport on November 18, 2003, at 1:55 PM, when he noticed a
cigar shaped object heading north going very fast. Planes
landing at JFK usually are heading south. This was going much
faster and had no wings, tails, or lights. Thanks to Peter
Davenport

STATEN ISLAND - The witness was sleeping and awoke at 2:30 AM,
and without turning on the lights went to the bathroom on
November 18, 2003. The witness reports, "As you walk in my
bathroom there is the sink to the left the toilet to the front
and the bathtub is to the right." She said, "I was sitting there
quietly, when the bottles of shampoo fell over and I looked in
the bathtub, and saw something moving, but it was took dark to
see." I ran out of the bathroom and jumped into my brother's
room and awakened him. He did not believe me at first, but then
he heard a bot tle fall and we looked at the bathroom opening
and we saw something run out and down the stairs. We heard the
dog's door open even though the dog is always in my parent's
room at night. "We looked out side and saw a bright green light
and then it was gone." Thanks to Peter Davenport

Pennsylvania - Flying Circle Of Lights and Reports of Big Foot

SALEM TOWNSHIP - Stan Gordon writes, on October 21, 2003, at
about 6:45 AM, a teenage girl was walking to school when she
observed a circle of lights at tree top level across the road
from where she was walking. The girl reports that this object
began to travel in her direction, and moved low above her head.
The object was emitting a steady loud sound that could be heard
while it was close by. The object soon shot up into the sky at a
fast pace.

ERIE - On November 16, 2003-The PA Bigfoot Society (PBS)
received a report of what appeared to be a very large human
shape swimming in a lake near Erie, PA. The figure appeared to
have unusually large arm stretches while swimming. The PBS is
investigating.

NEW CASTLE - PBS is also investigating two Bigfoot sightings
reported by several young fellows in a rural area. The first
sighting on November 17, 2003, occurred at about 6:30 PM, while
two friends were taking a walk. They claim to have seen an eight
foot tall dark creature standing on the side of a road. They
reported a wet dog smell at the time of the observation. The
next night as they were walking in the same area, they saw a
similar creature sitting Indian style on the side of the road.
Check out the PBS web site for updates.
http://www.pabigfootsociety.com Thanks to Stan Gordon, PA
Hotline at 724-838-7768 paufo@westol.com:
http://www.westol.com/~paufo

Maryland - Sigh ting Of A Huge, Diamond Shape UFO

SALISBURY - The observer was sitting in his living room watching
TV on November 15, 2003, at 9 PM, when he saw something out of
the corner of his eye that had a huge diamond shape with lights
on each corner. It was huge and fast and there may have been
another light in the middle. He states, "It flew over my house
extremely quickly, way quicker than any plane. There are no
planes that regularly fly over our house. I saw a UFO on a
previous occasion but it was not as close or as big as the one I
just saw. After I lost sight of the craft I ran back into my
dad's study who is a retired Air Force veteran and told him what
I saw. He did not believe me, but he said he had heard something
like a sonic boom." Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Virginia - Pretty Weird Lights Moving In The Woods

MIDLOTHIAN - The eyewitness on November 18, 2003, got up at
midnight to open the door for his mother-in-law when he saw
something weird moving in the woods. He states, "My house is
high on a hill and from my deck you can see the woods far away
and I noticed that something with blue, red, and white lights
was surveying the woods. These are the only words I can use to
describe how it was moving. The distance was about 5 to maybe 10
miles from my house, it was hovering over the wooded area just
either circling or going back and forth. When it would move in
the west direction, the red and blue lights would appear. Then,
when it returned movement back toward the east, a bright white
light would shine down, like it was surveying something. I
grabbed my mother in law, and we both went on the deck to watch.
We watched it for ten minutes, and noticed a solid red color
ball flying west across the woods. Another object was white and
cigar shaped. Both secondary objects disappeared from my view.
It was weird." Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Georgia - Pulsing Ball With Low Burning Lights

HORTENSE - On November 14, 2003, at 10:30 PM, an object appeared
just below the Big Dipper with red, yellow, green and blue
colors and descended as three different neighbors watched.
Twenty minutes later, I watched through my telescope as they
began to ascend at thirty minutes after midnight. As it ascended
it left a flume or wake behind. It eventually stopped moving and
was in the shape of a ball with low burning lights pulsing from
it. Last night, my friends and I counted six objects, all with
the same red, green, and blue colors. There was one object
located on each side of the Big Dipper, both seemed to be on the
same parallel. There were, also, four objects in the western
sky. One of the objects near the Big Dipper was in the shape of
a triangle. As these objects ascended, they took the shape of a
ball, with low burning lights pulsing from them. It almost seems
that each comes to a rest as if awaiting orders to move. The
witnesses tried to photograph the objects but they were too far
away. I know this is not something from this world and they are
very distinct in the heavens due to their brilliant colors and
pulsing lights. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Florida - Bluish-White Glowing Objects In The Shape of a
Flying Triangle.

PALM COAST - The observer saw a very large and long lasting
meteor or shooting star that his caught attention on November
15, 2003, at 10:45 PM. He was still looking wondering if there
was a meteor shower happening. Then he saw a reflection of what
might be a flying flock of birds. The observer states, "I soon
realized it was not birds, it was many bluish-white glowing
objects in the shape of a V. Each one was as bright as a "dim"
star. The V was made up of about 5 of these glowing objects down
each side of the V with some kind of blur or mist around each
light. I could not determine if they were all fixed to one large
object or if they were all separate objects but they were all
staying perfectly aligned as if they were connected. They were
moving southeast very quickly without any sound. It moved much
faster then any aircraft I've ever seen. I guess the sighting
lasted about seven seconds. Thanks to Peter Davenport

BRADENTON - On November 15, 2003, at 5:30 PM, while the witness
was driving on SR64, his fifteen year old daughter asked,
"What was that in the sky?"He looked up and saw an off-
white slim object that was pretty far up. The object was moving
when I saw it and then it stopped in mid air. My daughter then
pointed out another object and my other daughter, also, saw one
for a total of three. I have no idea what they were, but I've
never seen an object move that fast and then stop and come to a
hover. A moment later, there was a bright flash and the object
that I originally saw was gone followed by two more flashes in
sequence and the other two objects were gone. My daughters
immediately felt as if the flash was some type of communication
between the objects as they happened in sequence. Thanks to
Peter Davenport

JACKSONVILLE BEACH - The observers report, "We were on the
balcony at a Jacksonville Beach hotel on November 15, 2003, when
something flew 20 to 30 yards from where we sat on the 8th floor
at 10 PM." We could easily have thrown a rock and hit the oddly
shaped rectangle that was wobbly and it made the same noise a
helicopter makes. It had a bright red glow coming from it which
made the whole side of the hotel red. We didn't know what it was
but an hour later we noticed lots of activity up the beach by
Naval Station Mayport, spotlights and the whole base was lit up
like a Christmas tree. We then drove as close as possible and
sat watching for hours all the activity out in the water. There
were several helicopters with search lights skimming ove r the
water, there were at least twelve helicopters, and seven were
skimming over the water several miles out. A UFO streaks past
our hotel and an unreported aerial search of beach and ocean is
conducted by the Navy and Coast Guard. As we left the electric
boxes on the poles were all buzzing very loudly, which was not
normal? We went back to the hotel and in the morning there were
still helicopters skimming the water. We checked the news but
nothing was reported. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Ohio - The Boomerang Object Distorted The Visible Sky

NILES - A family of four adults and two children saw soft blue
objects flying in formation that looked like fuzzy clouds that
maneuvered and then hovered and frequently crisscrossed each
other as well as taking separate flight patterns of their own on
November 14, 2003, at 5:30 PM. The witness writes, "They began
to follow me and my dog as we walked up the trail to my house."
They hovered over my house until I came out with my other dog
and my father and they continued following us down to the yard.
They appeared to be looking or searching in a particular area,
not straying far from the field. Currently, I am viewing
airplanes going towards and near the area of this phenomenon,
and the objects do not go away. They are still hovering as I am
typing this which has been now over an hour. Thanks to Peter
Davenport UFOcenter

Wisconsin - Hunter Spots Flying Triangle.

DOUSMAN - Jeff S. reports, "It was the fourth day of deer
hunting for me on November 25, 2003, and I just got out to my
stand 6:00 AM, when I heard this low tone noise, like the last
low key of a piano. The sun was just starting to show some light
on the horizon. On the opposite side, there was a dark blue sky
with some stars. So I looked up to see what it was. There were
three dim yellow lights in a perfect triangle formation. It was
flying too slow to be an airplane. It came from the south and
headed north. I watched this object for about one minute. Next,
the noise got quieter and quieter until you couldn't hear
anything. Then it froze. All three of the lights got close
together until it almost looked like one light. Then the front
light flashed twice, it flew up for a couple seconds and just
vanished. Five or ten minutes later an extremely low, jade green
airplane came flying from the west and headed north, the same
direction the object/objects. The airplane was flying lower than
the object. All the edges of this plane were rounded. I heard
the turbulence of this airplane for about seven minutes. Thanks
to Jeff S.and UFO Wisconsin.com/

Illinois - Possible Flying Triangle Caught On Tape

HANOVER PARK - It was 5:10 AM on November 13, 2003, and I was
letting my dog outside and I noticed a bright light to the
south. At first I thought it was a plane but it was not on a
normal flight path and it was moving too slow to be a plane.
After thirty seconds of watching this light move to the north I
decided to get my camcorder. I began to record and as I zoomed
in I was shocked. There were three bright lights in the shape of
a flying triangle. I taped it for about thirty seconds before my
battery went dead. I have watched this tape a dozen times and
can see the faint outline of the triangle. Thanks to Peter
Davenport UFOcenter

Minnesota - They are back BIG time!

WEST CENTRAL MINNESOTA - Brian Vike reports he received
information from five witnesses who saw a UFO on Saturday,
November 29, 2003, who saw huge bright light flash in western
sky. The witness states, "I only got one really good picture at
6 PM. I have a bunch of other shots, but they are not as good.
Then it ZIPS to a southeast position. Sits there. I yelled for
(hubby) and then for the boys who were having band practice. The
object had by then moved to a southwest position and just sat
there. Multiple lights flashing and appeared to be changing in
shape. I will have each of them write up a separate statement.
The object then SINKS on the horizon VERY SLOWLY. As if to land?
This lasted a good twenty minutes so we got a good look at this
HUGE object, the biggest I have ever seen. Hubby had to leave
and the boys were a little shell shocked. They just couldn't
believe what they saw. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director UFO
Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.

Louisiana - It Was A Scary Sight.

ABBEVILLE - The witness was out side getting some water for his
grandmother on November 19, 2003, when he looked up to see the
stars and six triangle-shaped craft. He states, "They lowered
themselves to about 200 feet above the ground, when I saw a door
slide open, and that's when I ran for the house: I sat at inside
by the window to watch, but the door closed and it took off.
Thanks to Peter Davenport

Missouri - Cigar Shaped Slow Moving Haze Or Shadow

ST. LOUIS - A cigar shaped gray slow moving object was seen at
6:50 AM, in a clear sky moving south on November 13, 2003, by
two coworkers in a lighting company. The witness states, "I
saw no lights and heard no sound and there were no lines
defining anything. It was like a shadow about 50 + miles away,
at ten o'clock high. My self and coworker watched it about 45
seconds. It slowly faded from site, never changing speed or
direction. My gut feeling at the time was {for lack of better
words Ill-use star trek lingo} the shadow was cloaking something
inside. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Texas - Gray Cylinder And Large Triangular Craft

DALLAS - The observer reports seeing a gray cylinder that
resembled a fuselage without any wings going upwards with a
faint trail following it on the November 19, 2003, at about 2:05
PM. It was a bright sunny day and there were several planes
leaving contrails in the sky but this object was just going
straight upwards and it disappeared from sight in about a
minute. There were no markings on the object, it was not shiny,
but just a dull gray white color, and its speed were difficult
to tell since it was going upwards. The past two nights there
has been a light that is stationary close to my schoo l in
Richardson, which is where I go to school and work. Both times
the light appeared, there has been several witness faculty
members, staff, and students that have witnessed this light. The
object itself just seems to be a white or yellowish star that is
out of place but has been seen in plain view at 5:45 PM and is
extremely too bright to be a star. It is unlikely to be a
weather balloon since it was stationary for over an hour. Thanks
to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

ARLINGTON - The eye witness claims, "I just went out to get
some air when a very large triangular craft flew over my house
on November 19, 2003, at 2:30 PM, that blocked out the sky. It
was several hundreds of yards in length and width." I felt a
sense of mass above me, it was scary. It went south down Highway
287 and did a slow east turn about ten miles from my location.
At this time I saw a small (flame or illumination from the
back). It went about ten miles to the east towards Cedar Hill
and then turned south, it gained altitude and very slowly
disappeared. This craft was not fast, it was massive and
deliberate it its moves. No lights, no sound, no smell, but a
feeling when it was over me of mass, if that makes any kind of
sense. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Oklahoma - Crescent Shaped Lights Changing Into "Rockets" With
Red Flames

LAWTON - At about 5:30 PM, on November 16, 2003, the observer
was heading straight west on Highway 7, driving into Duncan,
when he saw north of the setting sun, two crescent shaped
lights. They were fairly large with the convex pointing down. As
I watched, the two lights got closer together. I made a turn and
lost sight of the lights. When I turned west again, at 5:37 PM,
one light had turned around, changed shape into what looked like
a rocket heading straight down towards the earth. A couple
minute s later the second craft which kept its crescent shape
was stationary until now. It changed into a rocket heading
higher with red flames coming out the back of the craft that
looked like red-magnesium burning. Then as I watched, the
burning flame headed straight up into the sky away from the
other craft. These two flight paths continued until about 5:50
PM, when the second craft disappeared from view and the first
craft changed its course to run parallel with the horizon. By
5:55 PM, the first craft had moved back up into the sky, and
changed into a stationary bright light, that looked like a star
but it was not dark enough to see any other stars. By 6:20 PM,
when I reached Lawton, the light was still stationary, the sun
had set completely, and I stopped watching. Thanks to Peter
Davenport UFOcenter

New Mexico - Mother and Son See UFO

NOGAL - J T reports, "On November 6th my son and I were driving
down Highway 37 around three miles north of Nogal. It was just
around sunset but there were no stars yet in the sky." Strangely
enough, I noticed something that looked like a star just above
us and thought it may have been a plane. To me it looked round
and brilliant like a star. I just kept looking at it wondering
what on earth I was seeing. Then my son said to me, "Mom why is
that star moving?" I was relieved I was not the only one who saw
it and said, "Maybe it's a plane?"he said, "Why is it going so
slow?"It was a sphere shaped object that was there for around a
minute moving slowly, but then it disappeared. My son got a
better look at it before this happened. He said, "It turned from
a disc into a triangle and then looked like a boomerang before
it disappeared. We stopped further down the road and searched
the sky with no luck. It was probably something from White
Sands. Thanks to jtpage@tularosa.net writes:

SKY CITY - An almost perfectly round object was seen off
Interstate 40, about 150 miles north of Roswell, on November 14,
2003. The object was yellowish-white in color and pulsated as
though energy was coming from it. It had a black area in the
middle of the UFO. The witness tried to videotape. When he
zoomed in with a video camera the object flew further out and
when zoomed out on the object it came closer Thanks to Peter
Davenport UFOcenter

California - Cloud-like Saucer Shape

WEST COVINA - A craft approached from the northwest and then
proceeded east along Highway 10 on November 10, 2003, at 6:30
PM. It appeared cloud-like in a saucer shape outline with domes
top and bottom that were approximately 50 to 100 feet across.
There were flashing airc raft type lights on top and bottom of
the opposing domes with a dark narrow slit near the top of the
dome. The craft moved very slowly at low altitude no more than
one hundred fifty feet from my hilltop viewpoint. During the
event, I felt very calm and was not aware of any detectable
noise from the craft. Thanks to Peter Davenport

PASADENA - Driving east on 210 Freeway, the witness and his
daughter looked to the right and saw a saucer with fluorescent
lights on November 10, 2003, at 6:20 PM. The saucer just kept
hovering and had a red light. They kept on driving on freeway
until they could get off the Colorado Street off-ramp and did
not see if anymore. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Washington - A Triangular Craft Spotted

LA CENTER - The witnesses were driving north on November 13,
2003, as darkness approached when they noticed a very slow
moving plane or a very large star. As we drove closer we
realized it couldn't be either. The object was triangular and
there we blue lights on the far sides and in the center a large
white light, accompanied by a small red light right below it. It
stayed completely still until we drove past. We looked behind us
and saw it moving in our direction. We continued driving north
in the direction of our homes. As we turned the last curve we
saw it coming over the hillside. Later my friend reported that
it disappeared shortly after she dropped me off. Thanks to Peter
Davenport UFOcenter

Canada - Three Maneuvering Lights

DIDSBURY, ALBERTA - Brian Vike had a call from a resident who
was outside his home on November 28, 2003, and reports seeing
three very bright white/yellow lights sitting over the Rocky
Mountain Range at midnight. He reports watching them for three
minutes before they all blinked out at the same time. The lights
flew around from side to side, up and down individually, not
together as one unit. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director CANADA HBCC

UK/England - Rectangle UFO

HASLINGDEN - Four lights square were seen by witnesses with one
red dot traveling anti-clockwise at 6 PM. There were four lights
in a square formation with a red dot anti-clockwise light around
it on November 14, 2003,

Virgin Islands - A Bright Orange Object Buzzes Cruise Ship

SOUTHERN ATLANTIC OCEAN - We were on a Carnival Cruise ship on
November 13, 2003, at 9:30 PM, when on the port side when my
husband saw a shooting star and turned around to make a wish;
when this object stopped dead in the sky and then flew towards
us at only fifty feet above the water. It flew to a position
about a 100 yards from us. Then it proceeded toward us and
stopped again, then it flew to the right and then darted out on
an angle to the rear of the ship. It came back again to the rear
of the ship. The whole time we were watching this lighted object
I was telling it to come back, and then it disappeared right out
of sight as quick as it came. Thanks to Peter Davenport
UFOcenter

Australia - Three UFOs

MELBOURNE - The witnesses observed bright glowing yellow lights
on November 15, 2003, flying right above our tent. There was at
least three of them, glowing yellow color. Thanks to Peter
Davenport UFOcenter


I NEED YOUR HELP

Dear Readers - Filer's Files has been brought to you free for
seven years on a weekly basis. As of January 1, 2003, I'm
requesting a donation of $2 a month or $24 per year to enable me
to continue with Filer's Files. This will hopefully cover my
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WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW WHEN BUY OR SELL REAL ESTATE!

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Filer's Files is copyrighted 2003 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites
if they credit the Newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to
keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE
ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Happy Holidays

George A. Filer www.GeorgeFiler.com/









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   Dec > Dec 4

               Re: What Happened To Those That Took A Stand -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 16:19:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:16:53 -0500
Subject: Re: What Happened To Those That Took A Stand -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 19:18:28 EST
>Subject: What Happened To Those That Took A Stand

>There's so much data on this List it boggles the mind.

>Yet, looking at the discussions about the 'Disclosure Project'
>and other sources that have witnesses, documents, etc. it brings
>to mind a review of what happens to people who do come forward
>and either reported UFOs or alien abductions or whistleblowers.

>Yes, we know they get mocked, harrassed, given the run around -
>yet what's the solid history of this? Any books on the subject?

>Beatings, financial ruin, career crushing, even rumors of
>murder?

>Knowing the history of the world I wouldn't put it past us.

>Yet what's the documented story?


I've noted this myself. I call it the "Mothman futility
syndrome," or the affliction imposed by the deliberate steps of
a cowardly and officious society to implode or destroy
(discredit and marginalize) the individual human being who would
have the effrontery to honestly report their paranormal
experiences to the rest of us. The individual is punished for
their courage... positive behavior discouraged, and rewarded for
their fearful and intimidated silence. Ardent skeptibunkies and
insentient CSICOPians won't cop to this at all... there are -
only- the mislead, misleading, and mentally ill. Everything else
is "impossible", so it's "not happening"!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 4

                    Unusual Marks On Israeli Investigator

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 18:53:36 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:22:19 -0500
Subject: Unusual Marks On Israeli Investigator


Unusual Markings Show Up On Israeli UFO Investigator

Pictures can be viewed at http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/Israeli.htm

-----

Dear Sir,

Since July 2003, I've been following with interest the articles
on Rense.com, dealing with extraordinary signs or wounds
appearing on certain people's bodies.

In the beginning of October 2002, after a confusing dream with
metallic noises, I also had a strange sign that appeared on my
left arm.

 3-4 Oct 2002  - The triangle mark on my left arm

10-11 Oct 2002 - I find a small lump (small and round swelling
like a very small pearl) in a very intimate place of my body.

24-25 Dec.2003 - The lump disappeared after waking up in sudden
haste.....

 5-6 Apr.2003  - My dogs strange behavior

6+7 June 2003 -  High above flying ball of light  in the sky (
in the same hour day after day .

15  June 2003 -  I woke up in the morning with a very similar
triangle wound  on my foot instep ( of which I haven't told you
yet.) (* I really didn't remember anything strange that night)

29  June 2003 -  Very bright light high in  the sky moving  from
SW to NE which shrank and disappeared.

30  June 2003 -  White light high up in the sky ( through my
field telescope) at usual observation white light with red
flashes ( without the telescope).

13  July 2003 - I photographed some blinking in triangular shape
and moving lights (red - orange -- green,  then white - orange -
green).

12  Aug. 2003 -  Orange light very high in the sky.

All the observations except June 7 were made together with
several eye other witnesses. (my neighbors, my wife and my
youngest son).

-----

Permission was granted to post the material above. This material
is copyrighted to ICFUFOR

If any other people around the world have encountered these
types of markings on their bodies I would certainly like to hear
from you. Also I know this gentleman would also be interested in
hearing other peoples stories that are similar to his. I will
forward any information along to ICFUFOR.

Thank you very much to this kind fellow for sending this
information along and allowing us all to read his story.

Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com








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   Dec > Dec 4

                       St-Polycarp Valleyfield Quebec

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 19:23:23 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:25:55 -0500
Subject: St-Polycarp Valleyfield Quebec


Hi List

I also just received a new report from Quebec a few minutes ago,
it took place on December 1, 2003. The kind lady will be
translating it soon and I will make a report on this sighting.


St-Polycarp, near Valleyfield, Quebec

Date:  August 16, 2001
Time:  10:30 p.m.

On the night of August 16th 2001, at 10:30, a spherical bright
luminous object appeared in the sky over the village of St-
Polycarp, near Valleyfield. The object was moving very slowly.
The sky was overcast. 3 of us observed it: my girlfriend, her
daughter and me. The disk seemed very big and very high in the
sky. It came from the north-west part of the province of Quebec
and was going south-east. There was no sound. I ran to the
neighbor's house. His wife answered the door and as she was
coming out of her house a commercial airliner flying at a high
altitude was about to cross path with the object. The airplane
was about the size of a 707 but the disk was much bigger than
the plane. The object started to zigzag quickly to get up
through the clouds and disappear before the airliner crossed
path with it.  I went back inside and watched channel 740 on
cable TV. They said the sky ceiling was 11000 feet high.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Also I want to give my many thanks to a wonderful lady who is
translating all French reports into English for me to work on.


Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com






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   Dec > Dec 4

                    Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:10:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:26:24 -0500
Subject: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03



INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
December 4, 2003


SOURCE: Diario de Yucatan (M=E9xico)
DATE: 12/4/03

"Our Lives Will Change on the 12th", claims Jaime Maussan

Ufologist Jaime Maussan, who has spent recent years lecturing on
the subject at different venues throughout the country, remarked
two nights ago at the Teatro Merida that "Something special will
happen on December 12th or a meteorite will strike us, bringing
about the end of the world."

Although he did not elaborate on his predictions, Maussan
insisted that he had only come to this city to present various
cases involving the UFO phenomenon, allowing the public to reach
its own conclusions.

However, he said that based on studies he has performed, as well
as sightings in several spots around the world and Mexico in
particular, he has reached the conclusion that on Friday,
December 12, 2003, at an unspecified moment and time, something
will occur that will draw world attention. Perhaps, "someone
special will be born, or an asteroid will collide against the
Earth."

In his two presentations at Teatro Merida, Maussan exhorted all
to be "aware of the date and more mindful of the sky and our
surroundings."

Among the evidence used to substantiate his claims were videos
of spacecraft and sightings occured in 2000 and 2001. Some fo
the more compelling images were those which showed - according
to Maussan - a circular spacecraft flying around the Twin Towers
of the World Trade Center in New York. Shortly after, the
September 11 terrorist strike occured.

Maussan noted that it is thought that these phenomena are a
means through which residents of other worlds try to communicate
with humans, trying to warn them of possible catastrophes or
phenomena of great world importance.

In closing, this student of the UFO phenomenon stated that
"something relevant that will change our lives" will occur on
December 12.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Translation (C) 2003 Scott Corrales IHU
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi







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   Dec > Dec 4

                  Study Finds Crop Circles Were Not a Hoax

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 05:21:45 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:28:59 -0500
Subject: Study Finds Crop Circles Were Not a Hoax



Source: KRON Channel 4

http://www.kron4.com/Global/story.asp?S=1549229&nav=5D7lJSP3

Posted: December 3, 2003 at 8:58 a.m.

Study Finds Crop Circles Were Not a Hoax

FAIRFIELD (BCN) -- A five-month study has concluded that the
mysterious crop circles that appeared in a Solano County wheat
field in June were not the work of four teenage boys who claimed
they made them as a hoax.

Steve Moreno of Psi Applications, a group that describes itself
as researchers of paranormal, UFO and metaphysical phenomena,
will discuss the results of the group's investigation at a news
conference Wednesday afternoon in Fairfield.

The investigation concludes the "hoax was a hoax."

"We've concluded that it's highly unlikely that four teenage
boys could have made the large, complex crop circle that
appeared on June 28 in Larry Balestra's field. The scientific
data, and our ongoing investigation, tend to point towards some
other, perhaps anomalous, unknown source," founder and director
Moreno said on Psi Applications' Web site.

"The physical changes in the wheat stalks can't be duplicated.
It's a phenomenon," Moreno said Tuesday evening. He suggested a
form of energy, possibly plasma energy, caused the crop circle
formations.

The four teenagers allegedly claimed they made the circles but
could not take responsibility for them because three of them are
on probation and didn't want to get in trouble with police.

They also reportedly said they made the circles using boards and
rope on a moonlit night, but there was a new moon on June 29,
meaning there would have been virtually no moonlight on June 27.

Psi Applications investigators also claim local law enforcement
officers did not give much credence to the boys' story.

The investigation found statistically significant differences in
the elongation of growth nodes of wheat samples taken within and
without the crop circle formations.

"Only microwave energies have duplicated the effects shown in the
growth nodes of formation samples," Moreno said.

A ball of light also was reported above the main formation on
June 27. Balls of light have previously been reported,
photographed and videotaped hovering over crop circles elsewhere,
investigators say.









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   Dec > Dec 4

                    Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:25:18 -0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:00:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake? - Gevaerd


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:25:03 -0500
>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:50:41 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

>>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:52:18 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Photos A Fake?

<snip>

>I feel I must lend support to Jerry's discussion about Klass and
>the "Klassical technique" of "solving" the UFO problem.

>I, too, have exchanged many letters with PJK, mostly between
>1974 and 1985. the great bulk of these related to McMinnville
>(photos, Trent, 1950) and New Zealand (Dec. 31, 1978). IN the
>New Zealand discussion we exchanged, not a few hundred, but
>perhaps as many as several_thousand_ single spaced pages over
>about a 5 year period. I dare say it was the largest letter
>exchange over any one case in history.

>And the bottom line was that, in his 1983 book, "UFOs, the
>Public Deceived," PJK deceived the public by claiming to have
>explained the NZ sightings.H is explanation was, however,
>completely erroneous, as I had pointed out to him in many
>letters previous to the writing of his book.

>My 'professional opinion' of the way PJK treated the UFO subject
>is expressed at the following location:

>http://brumac.8k.com/prosaic1.html

>which is a paper I wrote several years ago (at the behest of
>Eugene Mallove, Editor of Infinite Energy Magazine). In that
>paper you will see several cases for which PJK provided "prosaic
>explanations", including the Val Johnson case mentioned
>previously by Jerry.

>One good thing I could say about PJK was that he seemed to be
>the only skeptic who really took the subject seriously enough to
>spend a lot of time studying the cases. Also, he "trained" me in
>how to approach a sighting as might a lawyer, looking for weak
>points in the case. Unfortunatly, he was not competent to argue
>all the different types of physics one encounters in UFO cases
>(few people are) but this didn't stop him. He invented and then
>published explanations even when they were unphysical,
>explanations that would not have gone unchallenged by
>conventional physicists had they been published in conventional
>refereed journals. But explanations published in papers an books
>can establish an impression that "the case(s) has (have) been
>explained" and then any refutation that might come later doesn't
>get the same level of recognition or publicity. The case(s)
>remain ":explained" in the minds of the scientists and general
>public. Examples of this are in the paper at the above cited web
>site.

>Many years ago I was told (by William Hartmann of the Condon
>study) with regard to the McMinnville photo case, "You don't
>need a better, you need a better case." I will paraphrase that
>remark and apply it to the present situation: "We don't need
>better cases; we need better skeptics."

Just a note:

This is the difference between tendencies in North America and
South America. In USA and Canada UFO researchers have the
patience to deal with debunkers and skeptics for decades. Here
in Brazil and most parts of South America, we definitely don't
waste any time with them.

As a matter of fact, the biggest UFO debunker we ever had,
foremost astronomer Ronaldo Rogerio de Freitas Mourao, is
nowadays kind of a supporter of the subject. He was a strong
critic of the UFO Phenomena in the past and eventualy gave up
and decided to have a more flexible approach towards the
subject.


Good for him,

A. J.







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                   Re: sTARBABY by Dennis Rawlins - Decker

From: Ron Decker <decker@wtez.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 07:59:38 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:37:48 -0500
Subject: Re: sTARBABY by Dennis Rawlins - Decker


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers ->
>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:42:17 -0500
>Subject: sTARBABY by Dennis Rawlins

>Source: C.U.R.A. - The International Astrology Research Center

>http://cura.free.fr/xv/14starbb.html

>sTARBABY by Dennis Rawlins

>Note P.G.: This important article, published 20 years ago in
>FATE Magazine (No. 34, October 1981), is reproduced by kind
>permission of the editor.

>Ever since it came into being the Committee for the Scientific
>Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) has proudly

<snip>

Many thanks for posting this important article.

I'm aware of a couple of instances wherein CSICOP was involved
in trying to squash freedom of expression/academic freedom. One
was in the San Francisco Bay area and the other involved the
University of Hawaii. If memory serves me, in both cases CSICOP
tried to squelch courses offered by universities in these areas.

Is anyone on the List aware of these two cases and can you point
us in the direction of the information? I would be most
appreciative.

If memory serves, those involved in the attempted shut-down of
courses wound up quickly backtracking with CSICOP disavowing
connection with those who tried to abort academic freedom.


Best regards,

Ron Decker







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               Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 08:08:16 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:40:49 -0500
Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Lehmberg


>From: William Scott Scherk <wss@uniserve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 02:00:11 -0800
>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:05:12 -0800
>>Subject: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>Rudiak writes:

>>Dennis Rawlins' lengthy FATE Magazine account (excerpts above
>>and below) of CSICOP's cover-up and censorship of material
>>plus their vindictive tactics against people is exactly what
>>I am experiencing right now concerning my expose of Charles
>>Moore's Mogul balloon trajectory calculation hoax.

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/dec/m03-001.shtml

>Skeptical Inquirer and its publishers work against what they see
>as pseudoscience, irrational beliefs, and dangerous quackery.

Oh please! Better men and women than me provide well cited
arguments indicating that dangerous quackery, irrational belief,
and bald pseudoscience has become the province of the Skeptical
Inquirer whatever its _alleged_ provenance earlier, belying your
proclamation on the matter and invalidating same. I suggest you
need to look beyond their professional looking, but very canted
four-color brochure for their real agenda and remove the crown
and holy robe you would seemingly have them wear.

>Some may believe that a Mogul flight provides a reaonable
>explanation for the initial Roswell flap.

But them some _would_ wouldn't they? Given the reluctance of
"some" to remove themselves from the crown of creation, abdicate
the never really held position of God's chosen and favorite,
having to do-over work already thought done, or chancing the
discovery that everything they thought they knew... is wrong?

>Dave Thomas is one such person:

Dave Thomas, with all respect to the gentleman, is also,
apparently, a person reluctant to get knocked out of his
intellectual cat-bird seat and cop to Rudiak's very competent
destruction of a shabby, illogical, and finally, fanciful
explanation for the events in question.

>'What is the bottom line on the Roswell Incident, NYU, and
>Project Mogul?

Well - given that the average person has had his sensibilities
jerked back and forth the line of credulity by official
agencies, closed institutions and shadow governments so often
and so hard we can be assured of only one thing, really, and
that is that the "bottom line" remains unperceived by Mr. Thomas
(et al) and more than he is willing to _accept_, in any case!

>In Moore's words, "When the wind information is
>coupled with the similarities in the debris described by the
>eyewitnesses - the balsa sticks, the 'tinfoil,' the tape with
>pastel, pinkish-purple flowers, the smoky gray balloon rubber
>with a burnt odor, the eyelets, the tough paper, the
>four-inch-diameter aluminum pieces and the black box - to the
>materials used in our balloon flight trains, it appears to me
>that it would be difficult to exclude NYU Flight 4 as a likely
>source of the debris that W. W. Brazel found on the Foster ranch
>in 1947." From "The Roswell Incident and Project Mogul"

In other words, UFOs are *impossible*, so Balloons (...clearly
demonstrated by Rudiak to be as "impossible" as UFOs...) are the
next likely explanation for a _huge_ debris field and gouged
Earth, and _they_ are elected to fill Mr. Moore's intellectual
void? "Eliminate the impossible and whatever remains, however
improbable, _must_ be the truth"? That's 2% thinking, sir. Less
and less seems to _be_ impossible with every hour that passes in
this early 21 Century...

>http://www.csicop.org/si/9507/roswell.html

Committee for the Seriously Insentient Commitment of Obdurate
Persons... this is hardly a citation, Mr. Scherk. I'd sooner
make reference to a Nazi/Skinhead site for information on
Jewry...

>On the one hand we have a limited circulation magazine
>(approximately 40,000 subsribers) publishing comments such as
>those from Thomas; on the other hand we have evidence that these
>have little impact, such results of a 2002 Roper poll:

40,000 subscribers! What's the subscription rate for their rag?
From where else comes the operating capital for the dark nation
of CSICOPia... and fear not, sir, you still have a doting parent
in the hijacked mainstream... Moreover, your impact has been
HUGE, as you well know! Sixty years of Ufological struggle and
we still debate whether or not UFOs even _exist! I'd say your
effect has been monumental! Additionally, we can compare the
office environs and operating budgets of CUFOs and CSICOP
headquarters to see who is supported, how well, and by how much.

>"More than two-thirds of Americans say that the government is
>not telling the public everything it knows about UFO activity
>(72 percent) or extraterrestrial life (68 percent)."

>See:

Ha... Ask any _one_ of these in the 72% or 68% the damning
question in front of their bosses or co-workers and find that
they disavow said beliefs, sir, for fear of ridicule for being
interested! Like I said, your effect has been monstrous!

>http://www.scifi.com/ufo/roper/04.html

>Put this alongside findings from a 1997 Time/CNN poll.

>"As for the Roswell incident, nearly two-thirds of the
>respondents to the poll said they believed that a UFO crash-
>landed in a field outside the New Mexico town 50 years ago
>next month."

See above!

>See;

>http://edition.cnn.com/US/9706/15/ufo.poll/ ]

>Why give time and effort to debunking the debunkers? It doesn't
>seem to me that CSICOP has made much of a dent in majority
>beliefs.

You assess apples and oranges and conclude there are no such
things as pomegranates. The "dent" of CSICOPia (more a crater,
really) is that the giggle factor is kept high, evidence is
dismissed in the bogus rubric of extraordinary claims requiring
extraordinary evidence, and social punishments are enforced for
thinking out of the box in the matter.

>If the publishers, editors and writers associated with SI came
>on over to Rudiak's side tomorrow, would it make much of a
>difference?

I think I've been very clear that it would make a _huge_
difference, but none of us will be hold our breath!  And, don't
fool yourself, sir, in comparison to other sides, Rudiak has the
only game in town. Unlike his shrill detractors, he goes where
the data leads, is willing to re-do work the CSICOPians proclaim
_done_, and he refuses to distort the data to support convenient
conclusions. For your arguments to have any validity, at all,
two and two have to add up to *five*, sir, and that's a
CSICOPian legacy... not one indorsed by Rudiak.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Dec > Dec 4

                      What Thinks About Thought Itself?

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:39:35 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:42:24 -0500
Subject: What Thinks About Thought Itself?


The point of the following article is the reduction of our
conceit regarding our own cognition... too often are we held up
by the homocentric concept of our "near perfect" and
"exclusively rare" intelligence...

When one can believe that humankind stands alone because of the
"impossibility" of off an planet intelligence (as a result of
smarts being so *rare*) he should be reminded that there have
been different species of hominids on this planet, alone,
evolving a "reach that exceeds grasp" (Neanderthal's brain was
physically bigger than HomoSaps and apes have learned to sign)
... keen intelligence of a type, forgetting the unguessed
intelligences of whales and other cetaceans, Octopi, and birds
(crows may be as intelligent as a five year old child)... It all
boils down to us learning to pay respect to what gets little if
none now, on this planet, and a vastly increased potential for
what _may_ exist - out there... because there is so much
_evidence_ of it happening down here!

We are not alone - even on (and of) _this_ planet... the sky's
the limit for anything else!

http://rense.com/general45/animalscanthink.htm

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged - $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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                   SciFi Supports UFO Investigative Effort

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:33:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:47:32 -0500
Subject: SciFi Supports UFO Investigative Effort


SCI FI SUPPORTS NEW SCIENTIFIC INITIATIVE TO INVESTIGATE
UNIDENTIFIED AERIAL PHENOMENA

Unprecedented Cooperative Joins Together Major Organizations To
Engage Scientific Community


Washington, D.C. - Recognizing the need to establish the
scientific legitimacy of investigating unidentified aerial
phenomena (UAP), SCI FI Channel today announced a new initiative
that brings together the major organizations investigating this
still mysterious phenomenon and establishes a multi-group effort
to study the physical evidence associated with UAP reports.

This unprecedented initiative, supported by the SCI FI Channel,
joins together all of the major organizations that study the
phenomenon-the Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS), the Fund for UFO
Research (FUFOR), the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), the National
Aviation Center for Anomalous Phenomena (NARCAP), the National
Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS), and the National UFO
Reporting Center (NUFORC).

The goal of the effort is to engage the interest of the broader
scientific community with cases featuring trace physical
evidence.  The cooperative will spearhead thorough scientific
investigations of these cases with the intent to publish results
in mainstream scientific journals.  The groups have created a
joint website where members of the public, as well as
scientists, can report current UFO sightings
(www.ufoscience.org).

"For nearly 50 years, numerous organizations and individuals
have reported on and studied the UFO phenomenon," said Dr. Mark
Rodeghier, Scientific Director of CUFOS. "Until now, these
organizations have not combined their accumulated knowledge,
expertise, and resources to establish and oversee a systematic,
rigorous effort to investigate scientifically promising UAP
cases."

At an organizing meeting held this past June in Washington,
D.C., leaders of these organizations agreed to develop a
framework and protocols to conduct rapid investigation and
analysis of cases with physical evidence. "Obtaining and
analyzing physical evidence is the best way to determine the
validity, and potential causes, of the UAP phenomenon," said
John Schuessler, International Director of MUFON.

"It is our hope that by working with scientists who can subject
this phenomenon to rigorous investigation and laboratory study,
we can understand more about the likely causes of UAP, whether
it occurs with discernible patterns or trends, whether existing
knowledge is adequate to provide explanations, or whether the
phenomenon represents something truly unexplained," said Don
Berliner, Chairman of FUFOR.

In addition to landmark documentary programming, last year SCI
FI launched a Washington, D.C. based public advocacy initiative
to draw greater attention to the UFO phenomenon by the media,
scientists and opinion leaders. Those interested in more
information on SCI FI's supported public advocacy initiative can
log on to www.freedomofinfo.org.  On December 12 the channel
will premiere UFO INVASION AT RENDLESHAM, a new two-hour special
hosted by Bryant Gumbel, exposing what has come to be regarded
as the most significant military-UFO incident in history
(www.scifi.com/rendlesham).

#       #       #







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                        Trindade Material - Part III

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 17:39:15 -0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 20:03:30 -0500
Subject: Trindade Material - Part III


Dear colleagues:

Again, as promised in previous e-mails, I am posting Marco
Antonio Petit's revealing article about the Trindade Island case
- below. It was once again kindly, professionally, translated by
the Translation Co-ordinator of the Brazilian UFO Magazine,
Marcos Malvezzi Leal

Petit's material contains very interesting information, as he
was the last Brazilian UFO researcher to interview Barauna
before he died. Petit is a leading Brazilian UFO researcher who
has spent 3 decades investigating the subject. He is one of the
co-editor of the Brazilian UFO Magazine and has published 4
books.

Enjoy.

A. J. Gevaerd, editor
Brazilian UFO Magazine

-------------------------------------------

New facts on the Trindade incident

Unpublished statements from the author of the famous photographs
taken aboard Almirante Saldanha

Marco Antonio Petit, co-editor, Brazilian UFO Magazine

In the history of ufology throughout the world, we find some
cases that can be a definite proof of the physical existence of
UFOs, due to the number of witnesses and the photographic or
cinematographic documentation. Some of them occurred during the
first years of UFO research and served as a foundation for the
notion that we were actually dealing with something serious,
worthy of investigation. One of those classic cases is the
Trindade Incident, occurred on January 16, 1958, and whose major
protagonist was a photographer, crew member of a Brazilian Navy's
vessel that was docked on Trindade Island (RJ).

Back in those days, the episode had great repercussion and the
witness was interviewed in nearly every media vehicle, whether
specialized or not. But some details about the incident remained
obscure, even after his astounding photographic shots had been
exposed in newspapers and magazines all over Brazil. A little
while later, the Trindade Incident was left aside and its place
in the media was taken over by other, more recent incidents, and
perhaps even more relevant.

After nearly 40 years, we are back to discussing it, bringing to
light a few new revelations about details of the utmost
importance that were not mentioned in 1958 and deserve to be
reevaluated, including the involvement of military witnesses and
the thorough investigations conducted by the Brazilian Navy.
Recently on an exclusive interview, photographer Almiro Barauna,
key-witness to the case, told us about previously unpublished
facts, which we will now transcribe.

We can say the story began on January 14, when the Brazilian
Navy's vessel Almirante Saldanha was nearing Trindade Island,
bringing along with its regular crew a group of skin-divers, as
it had been doing on its latest trips. One of the members of
that team was Barauna, who would eventually become the major
protagonist in the case. 1958 was the International Geophysical
Year, and the Brazilian Navy was actively participating in the
researches being conducted, which included Trindade.

Thus, the presence of the skin-divers was associated to such
activities. The team was supposed to collect rare fish specimens
that were not usually found on the coast. Barauna was invited to
photograph the bottom of the sea, and a watertight box had been
built to allow for such images to be taken. The photographer
produced several stories for magazines such as Mundo Ilustrado
and Manchete Esportiva. On the morning of January 16, having
fulfilled all of his missions, the crew and skin-divers returned
to the ship, which had been anchored close to the island.

First Photograph  - The photographer was not feeling very well
and lay down on the deck. Soon after 12 noon, amidst shouting
and yelling, a lieutenant called Barauna's attention to the
presence of a metallic and disk-shaped flying object, that was
flying in the sky towards the ship. Barauna got up, set his
tripod and camera, a Rolleiflex, and took the first shot.
Immediately afterwards, he took the second shot. But the object
disappeared behind Desejado mount. Shortly after that, it came
up again, and was nearly stationary in the sky. According to the
photographer, the UFO looked like a lightless balloon, moving
about.

At that moment, Barauna took a third snapshot - and admittedly,
the best of the series. The saucer began to move again, flying
at a high speed towards the horizon; but before it disappeared,
Barauna took one more photo. Actually, he took six shots, but in
two of them the flying saucer is not seen, for the camera's
shutter was activated just when Barauna was being knocked over
by the militaries that were frantically running about the ship's
deck. One of them shows merely the sea and the other one shows
part of the island, with a tilted horizon.

After the UFO had disappeared over the high sea, Barauna was
trembling all over for several minutes. The sighting of that
craft left several military members of the crew emotionally
shaken up. Some had even pointed their guns at the UFO. When the
object disappeared, the ship's commander asked Barauna if he had
been able to photograph its maneuvers. He replied that he had
taken several shots, but could not at that moment guarantee that
the UFO had been caught in film. The same military inquired of
him if it was possible to have the film developed on board, as
the ship had a photographic laboratory, although it was no
longer used. Barauna found that several of the chemical products
available in the lab were deteriorated, but with methanol and
sulfite he decided to develop the film, replacing acetic acid
with vinegar. Before doing that, however, he had to repair the
development tank. Barauna was helped by captain Jose Viegas,
from the Air Force, a member of the divers' team, who was
holding up a flashlight with some green cellophane in front,
used in the developing process.

The risk of burning up the negatives was great, for Barauna had
had no time to regulate the camera's aperture before taking the
photographs, and the film had been exposed to too much light.
Outside the laboratory the militaries were waiting anxiously.
Some were carrying magnifying glasses in the hopes of examining
the film right after it was developed - which eventually
happened. There was no doubt about it: the UFO had been
photographed. During dinner, still aboard the Almirante
Saldanha, the commander informed Barauna that three other
sightings had been reported before. At least one of them was
witnessed by the island's military commander, corvette's captain
Alberto Ferreira Bacellar.

Overexposure - When they reached Vitoria (ES), he requested and
was granted permission to return with his group by bus, for the
ship was to remain two more days in town. At dawn, they were in
Niteroi (RJ). Barauna promptly took the negatives to his
laboratory, and indeed the film had been overly charged with
overexposure. He decided to wear it down - a very dangerous
technique, for if he were not extremely careful, he could burn
it. Taking this into account, Barauna worked first with the
least important negative, the one that shows the UFO at a longer
distance, just above the horizon.

The result was positive and the image became much clearer. So he
used the same technique on the other photos, and made his first
enlargements. But he did not expose them publicly immediately,
because the militaries had told him to keep the incident secret
till the investigations were concluded. A few days later,
 Barauna was invited to bring the negatives and give testimony
to the Navy's secret service, in the city of Rio de Janeiro.
There, he was questioned for several hours. From the third
photo's negative - the best one - two slides were made in the
Navy lab. They used a technical process that can generate a
three-dimensional image, which enabled them to determine how far
the saucer was at the time it was photographed.

This study was conducted in the presence of Barauna. The
militaries told him the UFO was about 14 km away from the ship
at the moment the picture was taken. Later on, Almiro was
summoned again. This time the Navy confiscated the negatives
and, when it returned them, the photographer noticed that the
edges had been scratched. The Navy had sent them to Cruzeiro do
Sul's photo cartographic air service for analysis. Their labs
analyzed the film's texture and granulation. No sign of trickery
was detected. Even then, the militaries again confiscated the
photographs.

The Navy's secret service interviewed 48 witnesses, including
sailors, corporals, sergeants, three officers and admiral Paulo
Moreira da Silva - the highest-rank officer among the militaries
to have seen the UFO. In one of the meetings attended by
Barauna, several photographs of UFOs were laid on a table,
brought from other countries and belonging to the Navy's files.
Among them, Barauna's shots had been included.

The witnesses, including admiral Moreira da Silva, were asked to
identify the craft that had been sighted over Trindade. Only one
sailor misidentified the object, selecting a flying saucer that
had been photographed by the Argentine Navy in Baia Blanca.
Within the premises, Barauna was able to verify the existence of
a UFO photograph that had been taken by a sergeant. It had been
registered by a slow-speed "box camera", and it was the first
unidentified object seen over Trindade Island, a few months
before the Almirante Saldanha's experience. After requesting the
negatives for a second time, the authorities allowed Barauna to
publicize his photographs. Barauna had considered going to
journalist Joao Martins, for O Cruzeiro magazine, to inform him
of the details. However, he was stunned at the news that the
Correio da Manha (a newspaper) was preparing a scoop: the
publication of a flying saucer taken by Navy personal over
Trindade Island.

The Correio had obtained copies from Baraunas's photos from the
president of Brazil himself, Juscelino Kubitschek, who was
spending a few in the city of Petropolis (RJ). Barauna sought
out Joao Martins and told him the whole story. After several
enlargements had been made at the magazine's laboratory, both
men summoned other newspapers and provided them with the copies.

The following day, the so-called scoop was hazed by more
important stories that included interviews with Barauna and Joao
Martins, who had become a UFO researcher soon after the Barra da
Tijuca incident. Brazil and the world were beginning to be aware
of the events that had taken place on Trindade. A few days
later, the Diario de Noticias, another daily newspaper that had
not received the material, published a counter-story trying to
convince the public that Barauna's shots were a fake and showed,
in fact, a model-object.

Although nothing could be proven to that effect, the controversy
began. One of the factors that backed up the accusation of hoax
was that Barauna had previously produced holograms of flying
saucers through trickery, just to show the public how easy it
was to create that kind of faked images. However, in April that
same year, the controversy would be drawing to a close, when the
Navy's General Staff, after concluding a very strict and secret
inquiry decided to give its official position on the matter,
confirming the authenticity of the case and the photographs.

A proven case - The confidential report on the incident,
however, was not published in the Press. Nevertheless, and most
surprisingly, several secret documents relating to the case were
published years later by a magazine in Argentina. One of them, a
memo from the U.S. Embassy, signed by their military attache,
addressed to the rear admiral Luiz Felipe Pinto of the Light, at
that time vice-chief  of the Navy's Intelligence Department. In
that document further information is requested on the case as
well as copies of the photographs, apparently pointing out the
existence of intelligent and trustworthy witnesses who could, on
their turn, help to prove the legitimacy of the whole incident.

According to the documents published in Argentina, it is clear
that the Brazilian Navy did not publish any further information
on the Trindade-related facts, supplying nothing more than
copies of the pictures. Another well-kept document, dated
February 13, 1958, and coming from the Command of Naval
Operations, was sent to the Navy's director of Hydrography and
Navigation. In this document, the high rank officers suggested
that the Navy's station on Trindade be maintained in a permanent
state of alert, because of other possible manifestations of
flying saucers that could occur at any given moment around the
area.

The militaries stationed on the island were to make every
possible effort to photograph UFOs, using all kinds of cameras.
Observations should also be made through radar and with the use
of magnetic needles. The memo pointed out to possible
interferences in internal combustion motors and in the electric
lights. Should these efforts be successful, the memo recommended
communicating the news promptly to the superior officers.

Through this document it is evident that the Navy not only knew
about the existence of UFOs, but also was convinced that there
could be other UFO sightings over Trinidad. The most important
document published in Argentina, however, is the secret report
in which they detail all the facts observed on the island and
the conclusions of the investigations, sent to the Minister for
the Armada. Such declaration is dated March 03, 1958. Previously
a report had been made about the sightings prior to January 16
of that year.

Unusal maneuvers  - The first sighting was on December 5, 1957,
the second on December 31, 1958 and the third one was on January
1. The secret report describes a disturbance in the emotional
state of the witnesses when they saw the flying saucer, in
January. It also describes the saucer's unusual maneuvers in the
presence of the militaries, demonstrating a technological skill
that was highly superior to our Earth's science and causing
panic among all the people aboard the ship. The text closes with
an important statement: "Taking into account the existence of
personal reports and photographic evidence of some value, and
considering the circumstances that it was obtained, the
existence of UFOs must be acknowledged." The report proposes to
the minister for the Navy that the Armada's High Command follow
up close every bit of information relating to UFO incidents, to
ensure a better understanding of the matter. The document is
signed by corvette's captain Jose Graldao, from the Armada's
Intelligence Service.

Marco Antonio Petit is co-editor of Revista UFO and the
president of Associacao Fluminense de Estudos Ufologicos (AFEU)
[The State of Rio Association for UFO Studies].

----------------------------------

Bonus material: UFOs observed on Paraguai river

Evidently, the involvement of the Brazilian Navy with UFOs was
not restricted to the Trindade incident. Several other incidents
reveal the Armada's military dealing face to face with flying
saucers, but the secret and the rigid military rules have not
allowed such cases to be made public in our country. Recently,
however, we heard the story of an extraordinary incident that
occurred in the very dawn of modern ufology, more specifically
in 1962. The episode involved a Navy vessel that was responsible
for the signalization on Paraguai River. We interviewed the
commander of the ship, sea and war captain Joao Maria Romariz.

According to the officer, in one of the journeys up river
towards Porto Murtinho (MS), several crew mates alerted him to
the presence of several mysterious lights in the sky towards the
ship's prow. Night was falling, and one of the objects flew over
the ship and the commander could see what seemed to be windows,
which was confirmed by another member of the crew, through
binoculars.

The vessel continued on its way up the river, always preceded by
several luminous objects. When it was already totally dark,
about 7 pm, one of UFOs moved about quickly, getting much closer
and allowing a detailed observation in its way. The UFO looked
like two upturned plates, it emitted a gold yellow brightness
and presented a kind of "antenna" on the top. At that moment,
the commander ordered that the ship move closer to the Brazilian
side of the river, and all the lights were turned out.

Morse code - The next step was an attempt to communicate through
the International Code of Signs (Morse): flashing a light from
the ship's stern. There was no reply, but soon after that
several of the objects that were close to the horizon, right in
front of the ship, began to grow in size and dim their
brightness successively. All crewmen then watched as one of the
objects began to draw closer, hovering above the vessel and
slowly losing altitude. The UFO was mysteriously disappearing
over Paraguayan territory.

Then another object approached the ship and projected a silver
light over the crew, evading itself a few seconds later at high
speed. When they finally got to Porto Murtinho, commander
Romariz heard from the city's mayor that flying saucers had been
seen over the city by a great number of people. When pressed by
journalists, the commander denied having had any kind of
encounter with the UFOs, but he talked to me openly about the
incident a few months ago. At the time of the episode, he was
summoned to Rio de Janeiro to give a detailed report about the
incident at the Armada's General Staff.







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   Dec > Dec 4

                Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:17:12 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:45:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 12:50:20 -0800
>Subject: Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:05:23 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs

>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>>>To:  <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 11:15:50 -0800
>>>Subject: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs

>>>Good Day Fellow Listorians,

>>>In 1948 First Secretary of Defense, James Forrestal invited Maj.
>>>General J. (Wild Bill) Donovan, former first Director of the
>>>"Office of Coordinator of Information" (COI), then later the
>>>Director of "The Office of Strategic Services" (OSS), to serve
>>>on a secret committee including Dr. Vannevar Bush, Admiral
>>>Sidney Souers, and General Alfred M. Gruenther to study
>>>"defensive problems" against "unconventional attack" against the
>>>United States. [With emphasis on the Russians]

<snip>

>>Frank,

>>It would help if you documented your source or sources of
>>information. Sounds very interesting, and I look forward to
>>commentary by historians (hopefully) and well-informed
>>ufologists.

>Hi Dick & All,

>The source is the biography of Major General William J. Donovan,
>"The Last Hero," by Tony Brown. The information presented is on
>page 802.

>It further states: After Donovan accepted Forrestal's invitation
>to join this "secret committee" he inturn created a smaller
>group to study the probelms which included "Otto C. Doering,
>T.J. McFadden, Richard P. Heppner, and William Colby."

Dick, Listers,

While searching through Donovan's declassified FBI files, I
found reference to the "Committee to Study 'Defense Against
Unconventional Attack.'" Add to the list of members the esteemed
"Dr. Karl Compton, President of MIT (at the time.") Also a
member of OSRD with Vannevar Bush.

(Separately I might point out that Donovan was mentioned in a
"IPU doc" (if authentic) pertaining to the "Battle of LA.")
(BOLA)

Compton, later on, was apparently in the Killian Review Group of
the RDB, consisting of James Killian, Detlev Bronk, Dr. Mervyn
Kelly, Lee DuBridge, and Merle Tuve, Fred Hovde, R. E. Wilson ,
Dr. H.P. Robertson, Dr. V. Bush, Dr. Irvin Stewart, Dr. Jerome
Hunsaker, Robert Oppenheimer, and Dr. Lloyde V.Berkner.

The "Committee to Study Defense Against Unconventional Attack"
was apparently established under the auspices of one of the
"National Security Council Directives" that were borne in '47
and '48.

SO, in review:

1). we have a group established to "study defenses against -
unconventional attack-" against the United States.

2). Said group is put together shortly after and during heavy
UFO activity. (1947-1948).

3). The members of the group include the Father of American
Intelligence, "Major General Bill Donovan"; The first Director
of the Central Intelligence Group (CIG), "Admiral Sidney
Souers," and at the time, "Executive Secretary of the National
Security Council; General Alfred M. Gruenther, the youngest 4
star General in U.S. history, future Commander of NATO, at the
time Director, Joint Chiefs of Staff, member of the National
Security Council; Dr. Vannevar Bush, Director of the Office of
Scientific Research and Development, one of the top Scientists
in the country with numerous accolades to his credit; Dr. Karl
Compton, head of the Office of Field Service Office of
Scientific Research and Development (OSRD) and president of MIT.

4). Souers and Bush are alleged members of "The Majestic-12
Group; first Secretary of Defense James Forrestal, another
alleged member, was the one to invite Donovan to join the SDAUA
committee.

5). There is ample documentation in regards to a "Russian
theory" for early UFO reports.

6). Of the 7 categories the study was split into--all of them
have been mentioned in alleged MJ-12 docs.

Again, given the timing, the caliber of people involved--one has
to wonder if the creation of this group/committee was merely a
coincidence, or directly related to the "covert intelligence
gathering" of UFO related phenomenon.

The plot thickens.....


Regards,

Frank Warren







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   Dec > Dec 4

                  SciFi Channel presents Rendlesham Special

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:47:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:53:25 -0500
Subject: SciFi Channel presents Rendlesham Special


Host Bryant Gumbel Unlocks The Mystery Behind The 'Uk�s Roswell'
In A SciFi Channel Original Expose

SCI FI Channel crosses the Atlantic to expose one of the most
notorious UFO incidents of the twentieth century in UFO Invasion
at Rendlesham. Hosted by Bryant Gumbel, this original two-hour
documentary special premieres Friday, December 12 @ 9 PM (ET/PT)
exclusively on SCI FI Channel. UFO Invasion at Rendlesham is
part of the SCI FI Declassified franchise, a series of specials
that demystify the place where science fiction meets science
fact. The most recent Declassified special, The New Roswell:
Kecksburg Exposed, was the highest-rated non-fiction program to
air on SCI FI in 2003, and was the highest-rated documentary
program in primetime on basic cable for the month of October
2003.*

SCI FI�s expose of the controversial Rendlesham UFO incident
sheds new light on a compelling mystery. In 1980, a series of
bizarre events occurred near two American military bases in
Rendlesham Forest, England. Three American servicemen
investigated strange lights that maneuvered and appeared to be
intelligently controlled. The incident was then covered up and
eyewitnesses were forced to change their stories. In 2002, the
British government acknowledged that it had classified documents
regarding the Rendlesham incident, making this story an exciting
subject for a Declassified investigation. SCI FI brings together
key eyewitnesses and high-ranking military officials who go on
the record for the FIRST TIME to provide new and corroborating
evidence.

The special is directed and executive produced by Jim Milio of
MPH Entertainment. Melissa Peltier and Mark Hufnail of MPH also
serve as executive producers. Jim Milio and Kelly McPherson
serve as co-writers. Through landmark documentary programming
and advocacy-based public affairs efforts, SCI FI works to
expand the contemporary definitions of science fiction to
include ideas, concepts, myths and legends that simply cannot be
explained. Last year, SCI FI launched a Washington, D.C. based
public advocacy initiative to draw greater attention to the UFO
phenomenon and is currently lobbying Congress to gain support
for more scientific inquiry into these issues.

UFO INVASION AT RENDLESHAM is produced by MPH Entertainment
Productions, exclusively for SCI FI. Launched in 1996, MPH has
produced over 130 hours of primetime television programming and
two independent feature films, including co-executive producing
the 2002 smash hit My Big Fat Greek Wedding. Notable among MPH's
many television projects are SCI FI Channel�s The New Roswell:
Kecksburg Exposed, The Roswell Crash: Startling New Evidence and
Martian Mania: The True Story of the War of the Worlds, cable�s
The Lost Dinosaurs of Egypt, Founding Fathers, Discovery
Channel�s Eco-Challenge Australia, Las Vegas: Gamble in the
Desert and Sea Tales.

SCI FI Channel is a television network where "what if" is what's
on. SCI FI fuels the imagination of viewers with original series
and events, blockbuster movies and classic science fiction and
fantasy programming, as well as a dynamic website
(www.scifi.com) and magazine. Launched in 1992, and currently in
82 million homes, SCI FI Channel is a program service of
Universal Television Networks, part of the Universal Television
Group (www.universalstudios.com), a division of Vivendi
Universal Entertainment (VUE), the U.S.-based film, television
and recreation entity of Vivendi Universal, a global media and
communications company.

# # #







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   Dec > Dec 4

                     Bush To Announce US Return To Moon

From: William Wise <w.wise@mac.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 08:53:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:32:55 -0500
Subject: Bush To Announce US Return To Moon


Source: The National Review

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/powell200312030858.asp


December 03, 2003

Milky Way Days
Returning to the new frontier

By Dennis E. Powell

When President Bush delivers a speech recognizing the centenary
of heavier-than-air-powered flight December 17, it is expected
that he will proffer a bold vision of renewed space flight, with
at its center a return to the moon, perhaps even establishment
of a permanent presence there. If he does, it will mean that he
has decided the United States should once again become a space-
faring nation. For more than 30 years America's manned space
program has limited itself to low Earth orbit; indeed, everyone
under the age of 31 =97 more than 125 million Americans =97 was born
since an American last set foot on the moon.

The speech will come at a time when events are converging to
force some important decisions about the future of American
efforts in space. China has put a man in orbit, plans a launch
of three Sinonauts together, and has announced its own lunar
program. The space shuttle is grounded, and its smaller sibling,
the "orbital space plane," may not be built. The International
Space Station, behind schedule, over budget, and of limited
utility, has been scaled back post-Columbia.

The content of the speech does not appear to be in doubt; the
only question is timing. While those who have formulated it have
argued that it be delivered on the anniversary of the Wright
Brothers' first powered flight, there exists a slight
possibility that it will instead be incorporated in the State of
the Union address at the end of January. This has its own, less
triumphant, significance, which is in the form of a chilling
coincidence. Every American who has died in a spacecraft has
done so within one calendar week: The Apollo 204 fire on January
27, 1967; theChallenger disaster on January 28, 1986; and the
loss of Columbia on February 1, 2003.

If the president goes ahead with the plan to announce an
ambitious new program to carry Americans beyond Earth's
immediate gravitational pull, he will argue that the new lunar
explorations are justified not only for what they themselves
might produce but also as a means of developing the technology
and skills necessary for a mission to Mars, which is expected to
be mentioned, though in less-specific terms, in the address.

Observers might note a familiar ring to the proposal. On July
20, 1989, President George H. W. Bush marked the 20th
anniversary of the first Apollo moon landing with a speech at
the National Air and Space Museum in Washington in which he
called for a permanent American presence on the moon and,
ultimately, a mission to Mars.

That address led to the formation of a group called the "Space
Exploration Initiative," headed by Vice President Quayle and
NASA Administrator Richard Truly, which in the spring of 1991
released a report, "America at the Threshold." It set a long-
term goal of landing Americans on Mars, with space activities in
the interim leading up to that goal. First, it recommended,
would be "Space Station Freedom" =97 now the ISS =97 followed by a
return to the moon, in large measure to develop and test systems
for keeping people alive on a Mars journey. The development of
rocket boosters more powerful than the mighty Saturn V that
lifted Apollo astronauts to the moon would be necessary, the
report said, as would development of nuclear systems for
providing power aboard in-transit spacecraft, and nuclear-
powered rockets, to be employed outside Earth's atmosphere,
where they could be used on long missions without the need to
carry enormous supplies of conventional rocket propellant. None
of the recommendations was carried out as envisioned at the
time; the only one that got off the ground at all is the space
station.

The president's speech could breathe new life into a moribund
space program whose recent history has been beset by
disappointment and failure. The space shuttle proved neither as
reliable or as inexpensive as its proponents had promised. In 18
years of flight (the shuttle was grounded for 30 months
following the Challenger disaster, and has been grounded since
the loss of Columbia February 1), half of the original shuttle
fleet has been lost to catastrophic failure, along with 14
astronauts. The cost of a shuttle mission has hovered around
$500 million despite early claims that it would be much less and
would allow payloads to be carried aloft for as little as $50
per pound. The launch schedule has been unreliable, with many
space customers wondering if their satellites would ever get to
orbit; in some cases satellites have remained on the ground so
long that their power supplies ran down and had to be replaced
before launch. The shuttle program has been so frustrating to
scientists that it was characterized by Bruce Murray, former
head of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, as "a giant WPA in the
sky."

Some critics say the space station offers little or nothing
more, with a far-higher price tag. It is "international" as to
the origin of some of its parts and some of its crew and, while
the shuttle is grounded, the craft used to ferry the maintenance
crews and supplies, but most of it is paid for by the United
States. Some critics have argued that it is less a space station
than an extension of the State Department.

Charles Krauthammer has noted that an orbiting United Nations is
unlikely to be any less foolish than one fixed on planet Earth.
"The moon and Mars are beckoning," he wrote in January, 2000.
"So why are we spending so much of our resources building a
tinker-toy space station? In part because, a quarter-century
late, we still need something to justify the shuttle. Yet the
space station's purpose has shrunk to almost nothing. No one
takes seriously its claims to be a platform for real science."
Establishment of a permanent moon base and research and
engineering work toward a flight to Mars would certainly
replenish the idea of a space program engaged in real
exploration.

Whether a return to the moon would spark the public's
imagination as it did in the 1960s is unknown. The world was
transfixed July 20, 1969, as Apollo 11 landed and Neil Armstrong
became the first man to stand on a celestial body other than
Earth. But public and political enthusiasm for the moon soon
waned. There were five more landings; the final three lunar
shots were canceled. The last moon flight was in December 1972.
No human has achieved escape velocity since.

A new space initiative would face numerous hurdles, including
congressional Democrats who in the present political climate
would be likely to challenge a presidential declaration that the
sky is blue. Additionally, congressional distrust of NASA is
vigorous on both sides of the aisle following the Columbia
accident. Rep. Sherwood Boehlert (R., N.Y.), and Rep. Ralph
Hall, (D., Tex.), recently asked that NASA stop work on the $13
billion "orbital space plane," a smaller, cheaper space shuttle,
until Congress and the president agree on NASA's goals. Others
in Congress have argued that the space shuttle should remain on
the ground permanently. The fact that a revamped space program
would employ many people =97 especially in places such as Silicon
Valley, where unemployment among engineers is high =97 might blunt
much criticism, however.

There are ideas and proposals that could offset concerns as to
the value of returning to the moon and, perhaps, traveling
beyond. Geologists are eager to take lunar-core samples, which
could tell much about the solar system's past and how the moon
itself was formed. It has recently been suggested that sunlight
collected on the moon and beamed to Earth could provide a no-
pollution source of power. Bill McInnis, a leading NASA engineer
before he resigned in despair over shuttle-safety issues and
ultimately took his own life, long lobbied for a return to the
moon and talked of the search for extraterrestrial intelligence
and the folly of putting our antennae on Earth. "The signals
we're looking for are so weak that the effects of somebody
turning on a light a hundred miles away are stronger," he said.
"The place to do it, the place to be free of Earthbound
interference =97 that's the other side of the moon. The moon is
the ultimate space station, it is where we can really learn
things." Certainly, long-term lunar experience would facilitate
a trip to Mars.

NASA's budget has been far short of lavish since the last time
the agency was aiming for the moon. The president has remarked
to members of the White House space group that he does not favor
a huge increase in spending for NASA projects. Whether he has
changed his mind, and the extent to which he is willing to sell
an ambitious new program of space exploration remains to be
seen. If Bush does deliver the speech as planned, it would be
another opportunity for him to finish business left pending when
his father left office a decade ago.

=97 Dennis E. Powell is a freelance writer, currently at work on a
history of the space-shuttle program.







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   Dec > Dec 5

                     Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 23:27:51 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 08:51:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Jones


>From: Roy Hale - The Lost Haven <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 02:40:07 -0000
>Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions

Good Evening Roy

>>Sorry for being a bit thick. But could you expand/explain the
>>question a bit more, as I would like to be sure I understand
>>what you are asking before I answer the question that I perceive
>>it to be.

>Sean,

>If there is one case in the history of UFO sightings, that you
>would consider to be the most convincing - to you - of ET
>involvement, which case is it?


I have cogitated on this quite a bit.

There is no single case which screams ET, the extra terrestrial.

Huh, I hear you say. Well hear me out.

What case supplies sufficient evidence to convince the sceptics?
Answer: None

Why? Now there is a more interesting question with many
_possible_ answers. But the plain fact of the matter is, no
matter what we _believe_ until we have the evidence to convince
the sceptics, we have nothing.

Joe Q Public will believe long before the sceptic, and Joe Q
Public has more common sense than the sceptic, _but_ until the
proverbial flying saucer on the White House/Buckingham Palace
lawn, you will always have doubters.

And as much as Andy Roberts annoys the heck out of me, he is
correct when he points out there is no hard evidence for ET,
only circumstantial evidence and supposition.

Unless of course you could point me into hard evidence?

Still, I _believe_ we are being visited by ET and have been for
a long time, but I have no evidence of the level that would
convict a criminal in court, of that fact.


Regards,

Sean

--

   In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                        Sean Jones
              http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/








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   Dec > Dec 5

                Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:38:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 09:28:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:17:12 -0800
>Subject: Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs

<snip>

>While searching through Donovan's declassified FBI files, I
>found reference to the "Committee to Study 'Defense Against
>Unconventional Attack.'" Add to the list of members the esteemed
>"Dr. Karl Compton, President of MIT (at the time.") Also a
>member of OSRD with Vannevar Bush.

>(Separately I might point out that Donovan was mentioned in a
>"IPU doc" (if authentic) pertaining to the "Battle of LA.")
>(BOLA)

>Compton, later on, was apparently in the Killian Review Group of
>the RDB, consisting of James Killian, Detlev Bronk, Dr. Mervyn
>Kelly, Lee DuBridge, and Merle Tuve, Fred Hovde, R. E. Wilson ,
>Dr. H.P. Robertson, Dr. V. Bush, Dr. Irvin Stewart, Dr. Jerome
>Hunsaker, Robert Oppenheimer, and Dr. Lloyde V.Berkner.

>The "Committee to Study Defense Against Unconventional Attack"
>was apparently established under the auspices of one of the
>"National Security Council Directives" that were borne in '47
>and '48.

>SO, in review:

>1). we have a group established to "study defenses against -
>unconventional attack-" against the United States.

>2). Said group is put together shortly after and during heavy
>UFO activity. (1947-1948).

>3). The members of the group include the Father of American
>Intelligence, "Major General Bill Donovan"; The first Director
>of the Central Intelligence Group (CIG), "Admiral Sidney
>Souers," and at the time, "Executive Secretary of the National
>Security Council; General Alfred M. Gruenther, the youngest 4
>star General in U.S. history, future Commander of NATO, at the
>time Director, Joint Chiefs of Staff, member of the National
>Security Council; Dr. Vannevar Bush, Director of the Office of
>Scientific Research and Development, one of the top Scientists
>in the country with numerous accolades to his credit; Dr. Karl
>Compton, head of the Office of Field Service Office of
>Scientific Research and Development (OSRD) and president of MIT.

>4). Souers and Bush are alleged members of "The Majestic-12
>Group; first Secretary of Defense James Forrestal, another
>alleged member, was the one to invite Donovan to join the SDAUA
>committee.

>5). There is ample documentation in regards to a "Russian
>theory" for early UFO reports.

>6). Of the 7 categories the study was split into--all of them
>have been mentioned in alleged MJ-12 docs.

>Again, given the timing, the caliber of people involved--one has
>to wonder if the creation of this group/committee was merely a
>coincidence, or directly related to the "covert intelligence
>gathering" of UFO related phenomenon.

>The plot thickens.....


It should further be noted that Detlev Bronk, Jerome Hunsaker,
and Lloyd Berkner - all three were outstanding scientists - were
also members of Majestic 12.

Hunsaker, the first born and last to die of the MJ-12 group
died, on Sept. 10, 1984, just 2 weeks before Box 189 of Entry
267 of USAF Record Group 341 was first handled for
classification review. This is the box in which the Cutler
Twining memo was found, the following July, when it was first
made available to researchers. His obituary was in the NY times.
The EBD film was received three months after his death.


Stan Friedman
www.stantonfriedman.com










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   Dec > Dec 5

                     Re: Congress and Disclosure - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 17:04:04 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:10:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure - Hall


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 01:24:57 EST
>Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure

>>From: Vince White <Vinceomni@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:19:22 EST
>>Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure

>>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 00:44:47 EST
>>>Subject: Re: Censoring Dr. Greer & Witnesses

>>>Concept 4 While to most of us, including Disclosure UFO/ET
>>>represent an important issue, it is largely meaningless to the
>>>folks in Congress who are concerned/preoccupied with very
>>>earthly type issues such as medicare perscriptions, spending
>>>bills, foreign policy and various other down to earth matters

>>Listers;

>>If what Robert says about Congress were true, then we are indeed
>>led by foolish and short term political partisans. The gulf
>>between the public and private is as night and day.

>The fact remains that it is true. UFOs are not some earth
>shattering issue to members of Congress. To be fair to the folks
>in DC they are not foolish, but very knowledgeable of the
>various issues that Americans in their district or state are
>concerned about. UFOs/ET reality is not one of them. On the
>other hand drug benfits to elderly...that is a hot button issue

<snip>

>The bottom line is Congress didn't care enough to pursue the
>issue further. Congress did care enough to hold a 24 hour
>session on Judicial nominees. Joe Liberman does care enough to
>demand investigations of America's junk food makers, but alas no
>mention of UFOs. If we stopped and thought about it for a
>minute, we would understand that Roswell happened while a
>Democrat was President and while Democrats controlled Congress;
>the coverup has survived times when Republicans controled
>Congress as well as 40 years of Democrats. Bottom line is the
>coverup happened under both partys. It doesn't take much to
>figure out why leadership in Congress is not terribly motivated
>about getting to the bottom of the issue. In the meantime we
>hear alot of noise about impeaching Bush, Iraq, Afganistan, not
>to mention other burning political issues of the day like
>Judicial nominees, Medicare, tax cuts, defense bills, DOE
>budgets, forest thinning issues etc etc. This is not to say that
>these issues are not important, only that this is the day-to-day
>issues that Congress grapples with.

<snip>

Robert and List,

All very good points. Besides, as Civics 101 tells us, the
Congress is exclusively a  legislative body. When it holds
hearings, it does so to gather information and viewpoints in
relation to some piece of legislation being considered, not to
determine scientific truth. What are they going to legislate
about UFOs? There are ways that the Congress could help, but
that's another story. It is the Executive Branch that needs to
be activated.

>>Behind closed doors some wise members of congress must have
>>carefully considered these issues andeven drafted speeches on
>>this. Key members of Congress have quietly stealthily back
>>chanelled because it was the only way to try to find out what is
>>going on.

>Having known members of Congress I can tell you the issue is not
>on their radar scope unless it is on the minds of the
>constituents.

Exactly right. I have known some Congressmen too, and some are
individually curious about UFOs. But it is a poisonous subject
politically and would take, as Robert suggests, a new major wave
of sightings and public uproar to get the leadership to take
some kind of action.


- Dick









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               Re: SciFi Channel presents Rendlesham Special -

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:16:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:15:33 -0500
Subject: Re: SciFi Channel presents Rendlesham Special -


>From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:15:43 -0600
>Subject: Re: SciFi Channel presents Rendlesham Special

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:47:53 -0500
>>Subject: SciFi Channel presents Rendlesham Special

>>Host Bryant Gumbel Unlocks The Mystery Behind The 'Uk's Roswell'
>>In A SciFi Channel Original Expose

>>SCI FI Channel crosses the Atlantic to expose one of the most
>>notorious UFO incidents of the twentieth century in UFO Invasion
>>at Rendlesham. Hosted by Bryant Gumbel, this original two-hour
>>documentary special premieres Friday, December 12 @ 9 PM (ET/PT)
>>exclusively on SCI FI Channel. UFO Invasion at Rendlesham is
>>part of the SCI FI Declassified franchise, a series of specials
>>that demystify the place where science fiction meets science
>>fact. The most recent Declassified special, The New Roswell:
>>Kecksburg Exposed, was the highest-rated non-fiction program to
>>air on SCI FI in 2003, and was the highest-rated documentary
>>program in primetime on basic cable for the month of October
>>2003.*

>I hope this one is done with less repetition than the Kecksburg
>expose.


It's important to keep in mind that these programs are designed
for those who absolutely nothing about the cases in question.
Most of us in the field have already established our theories
and beliefs in regard to them, and I doubt that anything the
Sci-Fi Channel could present would change the opinion of any
true skeptics or believers.

But there is a large population of people who know little or
nothing about the cases being presented, and a lot of repitition
is probably required to drill it home. Unfortunately, these
programs have a lot of glitz to them, which is probably
necessary to keep the attention of many viewers, and those of us
familiar with the case will be bored.

I spoke with Charles Halt earlier this year and he had just
returned from England, where he had worked with the production
crew that was putting this upcoming special together. He was
quite excited about it, and I've been looking forward to it ever
since.


Steve








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               Re: Best Cases Of The 90's or 2000's? - Wilson

From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:48:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:22:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Best Cases Of The 90's or 2000's? - Wilson


>From: Minna Hyvonen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
>Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:11:06 +0200
>Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:52:24 -0500
>Subject: Best Cases Of The 90's or 2000's?

>Many times, when the best cases are asked for, the list only
>contains old-ones.

>But do you folks consider any of the new cases, less than 10
>years-old, worthy of listing in the best cases ranking-list? If
>so, which cases should they be?

>Especially good-ones should be those in the respondents _own_
>country. A little brief of the cases would be a nice way to tell
>why the case is worthy of listing. Maybe 5 to 10 best-ones
>would be a good number?


Minna:

Could you be a little more specific about your case question;
for example, are you looking for "sighting" cases or abduction
cases or both?

Just curious -

Katharina Wilson
http://www.alienjigsaw.com








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               Re: Study Finds Crop Circles Were Not a Hoax -

From: Amy Hebert <vanguard@preciousmemories1.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 10:59:25
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:24:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Study Finds Crop Circles Were Not a Hoax -


>From: Frank Warren frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 05:21:45 -0800
>Subject: Study Finds Crop Circles Were Not a Hoax

>Source: KRON Channel 4

>http://www.kron4.com/Global/story.asp\?S=1549229&nav=5D7lJSP3

>Posted: December 3, 2003 at 8:58 a.m.

>Study Finds Crop Circles Were Not a Hoax

>FAIRFIELD (BCN) -- A five-month study has concluded that the
>mysterious crop circles that appeared in a Solano County wheat
>field in June were not the work of four teenage boys who claimed
>they made them as a hoax.

>Steve Moreno of Psi Applications, a group that describes itself
>as researchers of paranormal, UFO and metaphysical phenomena,
>will discuss the results of the group's investigation at a news
>conference Wednesday afternoon in Fairfield.

>The investigation concludes the "hoax was a hoax."

At the Psi Applications web site the following statement is made:

"Psi APPLICATIONS is heading the Gilliland/Mt. Adams
Investigation, and has unveiled some amazing correlations, that
tie into previous research commissioned by the late honorable
Dr. J. Allen Hynek.

After several field expeditions and extensive networking we are
in the process of creating a video documentary series, which
unveils this most fascinating case.

James Gilliland was drawn to the area after an N.D.E. (Near
Death Experience) some 20 years ago. His life had transformed
into psychic awareness and experience. A part of that involved
contacts occurring in the Mt. Adams area with a UFO / ETI
appearing presence.

Research revealed a history, which has gone back some time
documenting this phenomenon. Yet even after slowing to a halt in
1986, James arrival eventually brought ab

out events, which were unparalleled in this documented history.
The recent publishing of an article by Steve Moreno called
Beckoning Contact has unleashed the truth of all these facts,
and has brought about thousands of hits to our site.

Plans are underway to further this investigation into an
endeavor of Project Contact whereby we fully believe it will be
possible negotiate a fully documented landing event in the near
future.

To learn more about the videos and how they can be purchased go
to Psi APP Processing Page"

Hope this helps others in their evaluations of these claims.


A. Hebert








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                       Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 20:28:17 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 05:52:05 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Roberts


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:34:44 -0000
>Subject: 'Strange Secrets'

Pilgrims,

Stuart wrote:

>I notice in the December issue of Fortean Times that there is an
>adapted chapter from the book 'Strange Secrets'(on Dowsing) and
>I am reminded consequently of my own thoughts upon reading the
>book.

>Specifically, I am reminded of the chapter entitled "Butchers
>From Beyond" and look back with fond amusement to my reaction
>upon reading it. As I recall, I exploded in a fit of temper and
>threw the book across the room I was sitting in. Much to the
>concern of my companions who were on holiday with me at the
>time, they had to listen to a diatribe of ranting abuse as I
>vented my extreme frustration at the insult you perpetuated upon
>me. I actually found the chapter offensive.

>In case it's not obvious, the chapter is about Cattle Mutlations
>and Andy's consensus is that it is indeed the American military
>that are carrying out these attrocities. The joke is in the
>"Why?" Apparently Andy thinks it is because the American
>government want to keep a check on the health of native stock
>and are checking for CJD and BSE. These are both diseases that
>have badly affected cattle stock in the UK and obviously the
>American government is very anxious to keep them out of the
>country.

>Naturally Andrew, it does beg one rather obvious question. Why
>would the US government go to all that trouble involving
>expense, bad press, financial loss to their beloved farmers,
>intense media interest, the risk of getting caught and so on,
>just to carry out what would be a perfectly acceptable health
>check on domestic cattle? Gee, they could even set up their own
>faux wholesale company and buy the cattle in, without raising an
>eyebrow. It is so stupid a conclusion that it beggars belief.

>I suppose you're going to tell me Nick Redfern wrote it, aren't
>you? If that's the case then, shame on Nick. But your name is
>on the book cover too.

I do have to say that it was indeed Nick who wrote that chapter
based on documents he found at the National Archives. So I'm
afraid I can't take the credit for it. Try again, using one of
the bits of research I provided!

However, I fully support Nick's right to write what he chooses
about documents he has unearthed. That you don't like it, and I
myself don't believe it, is neither here nor there. I'm sure
there are many things I've written or believe in that you
wouldn't agree with, just as I find much I don't agree with in
others' writings. However, I respect _any_ book and try not to
throw them.

I do, of course, look forward to reading your eventual book
Stuart!


Happy Trails
Andy








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                    Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 20:40:35 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 05:56:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Roberts


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions
>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:39:34 -0000

Pilgrims,

Stuart wrote:

>Sean,

>On the contrary sir, you do have enough evidence.

>Criminals are often convicted just on the basis of witness
>testimony alone.

>It is a very old cliche within Ufology

May be they are. But the difference is:

* We know humans exist
* We know some humans are criminals

Your cliche has nothing whatsoever to do with the existence, or
not, of ET.

Happy Trails

Andy








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                        Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:04:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 06:02:05 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Shell


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:34:44 -0000
>Subject: 'Strange Secrets'

>The joke is in the "Why?"

Good question. Without having read the book, perhaps I can
supply some plausible (though I don't claim them to be
definitive) suggestions.

>Why would the US government go to all that trouble involving
>expense, bad press, financial loss to their beloved farmers,
>intense media interest, the risk of getting caught and so on,
>just to carry out what would be a perfectly acceptable health
>check on domestic cattle?

What if it's not a perfectly acceptable health check? What if it
was for something the military didn't want people to know a lot
about, like nasty biological weapons test residue, or even
radioactive fallout contamination from the atomic tests in the
50's? That's the way the wind blows, after all. It's interesting
to note that the flesh is often taken from the mouth and anus,
which might be a good way to find out how much of the unknown
stuff is absorbed by these tissues as it passes through the
body.

>Gee, they could even set up their own faux wholesale company
>and buy the cattle in, without raising an eyebrow.

It so happens that I'm currently working for an agricultural
data company, and I can tell you it's not that easy to just set
up a cattle company and start buying randomly-selected cows. The
people who raise and sell cattle here know each other. If some
stranger started doing something like that it would raise plenty
of suspicion. You'd have to essentially create an entire fake
ranch with actors and everything.

Another consideration is that you might not be able to get a
good sample, because if a cow is in a lot, you don't know
specifically where it's been grazing, so you wouldn't be able to
make an accurate map of any contamination as it relates to
pasture, aquifers, and so on.

So it might still be better to let the devil worshippers and UFO
aliens take the rap for a few mutilated cattle here and there.

Perhaps a better question would be: Knowing how clumsy, ham-
fisted and unsubtle the government and the military is in most
cases, how is it that they're not frequently caught in the act
of mutilating these cattle?









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               Re: SciFi Channel presents Rendlesham Special -

From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:07:53 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 06:04:58 -0500
Subject: Re: SciFi Channel presents Rendlesham Special -


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:16:38 -0500
>Subject: Re: SciFi Channel presents Rendlesham Special

>>From: Terry Groff <terry@terrygroff.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:15:43 -0600
>>Subject: Re: SciFi Channel presents Rendlesham Special

<snip>

>>I hope this one is done with less repetition than the Kecksburg
>>expose.

>It's important to keep in mind that these programs are designed
>for those who absolutely nothing about the cases in question.
>Most of us in the field have already established our theories
>and beliefs in regard to them, and I doubt that anything the
>Sci-Fi Channel could present would change the opinion of any
>true skeptics or believers.

>But there is a large population of people who know little or
>nothing about the cases being presented, and a lot of repitition
>is probably required to drill it home. Unfortunately, these
>programs have a lot of glitz to them, which is probably
>necessary to keep the attention of many viewers, and those of us
>familiar with the case will be bored.

Yes true but even though I am one of those novices I still felt
that there was overt repetition. If they employ the same device
with Rendlesham, I would think it would require more than one
episode to get it all in. :-)

>I spoke with Charles Halt earlier this year and he had just
>returned from England, where he had worked with the production
>crew that was putting this upcoming special together. He was
>quite excited about it, and I've been looking forward to it ever
>since.

Halt's testimony alone could make a one episode. Debunking
Conde's story could take another :-)

I'm glad Halt worked so closely with the production.


Peace

Terry








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                    Re: Congress and Disclosure - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:36:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 06:07:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure - Kaeser


>From: Vince White <Vinceomni@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:52:52 EST
>Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 23:26:40 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure

>>Your paranoia and your totally unfounded assumptions are only
>>exceeded by your ignorance of the way the real world works in
>>Washington, D.C.

>>Who am I to say?

>>Greer has set back the disclosure process by his personal
>>behavior, failure to vett witnesses, insertion of extraneous
>>highly controversia issues not central to the question, and most
>>experienced and well- informed people have strongly confirmed
>>this interpretation on this list (and elsewhere).

>Is it paranoia to state that our government has surrounded the
>entire subject of UFOs with a curtain of lies and ridicule? Is
>it ignorance to compare the interest in UFOs shown by
>congressional members & staff during private briefings with
>their public silence? Certainly you must be aware of the earnest
>but very discreet inquiries made to really find out what is
>really going on in Area 51 over the years.

>What dismays is blaming Greer for the lack of congressional
>hearings. The statements of a well known intelligence connected
>individual that Greer derailed hearings are evidence that the
>Disclosure Press conference hit home. It is naivete in the
>extreme to not assume private UFO organizations have been
>infiltrated by covert operatives. The secrecy makers do not want
>UFOs mentioned at all-unless in ridicule.


Vince,

Like Richard, I'm also in Washington and still work in Congress.
Having been here in Washington during both of Dr. Greer's recent
efforts to bring the truth to Washington, I have found that it
has had no impact.

I have read his press releases very carefully after each event
and found that he exaggerated his success and see no credibility
in his effort.

IMO, he does not help in our quest. But that's just my opinion.


Steve








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                       Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:39:57 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 06:09:32 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Miller


>From: Nick Redfern <Skywatcher4u@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:15:27 EST
>Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets'

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:34:44 -0000
>>Subject: 'Strange Secrets'

>Stuart,

>It was indeed me who wrote Strange Secrets - alone. Andy had no
>role in the writing at all and all of the viewpoints,
>conclusions, and opinions that appear in the book are all mine
>and mine alone.

>Andy's only role was to supply the dowsing, foo fighter, sea
>serpent and crop circle documents that appear in the book. Those
>documents allowed me to write 4 chapters in the book that I
>otherwise wouldn't have been able to do without Andy supplying
>them.

>So, as a thank you and acknowledgment I gave Andy a name check
>on the cover.

>Why didn't you ask about this in private first before dragging
>Andy's name into something that he was only tangentially
>involved in? You don't think that the mutes are the work of some
>agency?

>Do you think it's aliens/predators/cults?

>You're wrong mate. There's much more gonna surface on this next
>year -- much more.


Nick

With respect, where does it say to the reader anywhere about the
book that Andy had nothing to do with the writing of it? So in
other words, how am I or anybody else meant to know?

I can only tell it as it struck me and I'm afraid that was the
honest response. No, I certainly don't think it's animals,
predators etc. - I have absolutely no idea what it is that's
doing it. But I'm sorry Nick, I have a lot of difficulty with
what you wrote.

If you're right, then why? What's the explanation for their
ridiculous approach to it? And were they really worried back in
the 70's about CJD and BSE? And for that matter, biological
warfare? I might concede the latter but not the first two.

I have an enormous amount of respect for your work Nick,
genuinely. But I don't think you did yourself justice with this
book. I'm sorry.


Stuart Miller








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                    Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:48:19 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 09:57:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Miller


>From: Sean Jones tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 23:27:51 +0000
>Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions


>>From: Roy Hale - The Lost Haven roy@thelosthaven.co.uk
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 02:40:07 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions

>Good Evening Roy

>>>Sorry for being a bit thick. But could you expand/explain the
>>>question a bit more, as I would like to be sure I understand
>>>what you are asking before I answer the question that I perceive
>>>it to be.

>>Sean,

>>If there is one case in the history of UFO sightings, that you
>>would consider to be the most convincing - to you - of ET
>>involvement, which case is it?


>I have cogitated on this quite a bit.

>There is no single case which screams ET, the extra terrestrial.

>Huh, I hear you say. Well hear me out.

>What case supplies sufficient evidence to convince the sceptics?
>Answer: None

>Why? Now there is a more interesting question with many
>_possible_ answers. But the plain fact of the matter is, no
>matter what we _believe_ until we have the evidence to convince
>the sceptics, we have nothing.

>Joe Q Public will believe long before the sceptic, and Joe Q
>Public has more common sense than the sceptic, _but_ until the
>proverbial flying saucer on the White House/Buckingham Palace
>lawn, you will always have doubters.

>And as much as Andy Roberts annoys the heck out of me, he is
>correct when he points out there is no hard evidence for ET,
>only circumstantial evidence and supposition.

>Unless of course you could point me into hard evidence?

>Still, I _believe_ we are being visited by ET and have been for
>a long time, but I have no evidence of the level that would
>convict a criminal in court, of that fact.



Sean

On the contrary sir, you do have enough evidence.

Criminals are often convicted just on the basis of witness
testimony alone.

It is a very old cliche within Ufology


Stuart Miller








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                Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:34:59 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 10:00:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs -



>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To:  ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 12:56:04 -0400
>Subject: Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:17:12 -0800
>>Subject: Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs

><snip>

>Interesting stuff Frank. Please Keep your eyes open for any
>reference to one William Stephenson.

>Best,

>Don Ledger


Hi Don,

There is of course mention of the infamous "Intrepid" in Brown's
book, but I personally haven't seen anything past that. (Yet).


Frank










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                Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:31:24 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 10:05:38 -0500
Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Rudiak


>From: William Scott Scherk <wss@uniserve.com>
>Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 02:00:11 -0800
>Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 08:58:16 -0500
>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Scherk

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:05:12 -0800
>>Subject: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>Rudiak writes:

>>Dennis Rawlins' lengthy FATE Magazine account (excerpts above
>>and below) of CSICOP's cover-up and censorship of material
>>plus their vindictive tactics against people is exactly what
>>I am experiencing right now concerning my expose of Charles
>>Moore's Mogul balloon trajectory calculation hoax.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/dec/m03-001.shtml

>Skeptical Inquirer and its publishers work against what they
>see as pseudoscience, irrational beliefs, and dangerous
>quackery.

Some definitions of "pseudoscience":

Michael Shermer, 1997:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/apr/m30-006.shtml

"claims presented so that they appear [to be] scientific even
though they lack supporting evidence and plausibility"

Wickpedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

"A pseudoscience is any body of knowledge purporting to be
either both factual and scientific, or of an even higher
standard of knowledge, but which fails to comply with the usual
scientific tests of repeatability, consistency with existing
well-established science and experimental result, experimental
accessibility, etc. Motivations for the advocacy or promotion of
pseudoscience may range from simple naivety about the nature of
science or the scientific method, to deliberate deception for
financial or other benefit. Some people consider some or all
forms of pseudoscience to be harmless entertainment. Others,
such as the science writer Richard Dawkins, consider all forms
of pseudoscience to be harmful, whether or not they result in
immediate harm to their followers."

Moore's proported "exact" calculation taking his Mogul to the
Foster Ranch superficially appears to be "scientific ," until
one takes a closer look and finds that his methods and
calculations (like 100/12 = 350) are fraudulent. It was a
"deliberate deception." It was a hoax. By any definition, it is
pseudoscientific. According to skeptics like Dawkins, this alone
qualifies it as "harmful quackery." It also encourages
"irrational beliefs": "Mogul _must_ be the explanation--Moore
_proved_ it, even if he had to cheat to do it"

If the Skeptical Inquirer is really working against
"pseudoscience," "irrational beliefs," and "harmful quackery,"
then please explain why they would publish an article supporting
Moore's hoax? Doesn't this make them just as guilty of promoting
all the things they supposedly oppose?

>Some may believe that a Mogul flight provides a reaonable
>explanation for the initial Roswell flap. Dave Thomas is one
>such person:

This fundamentally has nothing to do with whether Mogul is a
"reasonable explanation" for Roswell. It's about a writer and a
magazine claiming to be "scientific" yet failing to adhere to
even the most primitive scientific standards, such getting the
math right or telling the truth.

Science is not supposed to be about what one "believes" but what
the facts are. The facts unequivocably point to Moore
perpetrating a hoax. Wouldn't the honest (not to mention
scientific) thing be to denounce such a hoax as antithetical to
the scientific process, despite one's personal "beliefs" about
Roswell?

Just because Dave Thomas "believes" Mogul to be a reasonable
explanation, I'm afraid does not give him permission to
misrepresent or omit the real math arguments, make excuses for
an obvious hoax, and personally attack me in this so-called
magazine of "science and reason."

>'What is the bottom line on the Roswell Incident, NYU, and
>Project Mogul? In Moore's words, "When the wind information

The point (which apparently Mr. Scherk doesn't get or care
about) is Moore cheated with same "wind information" in order to
get his balloon to the Foster Ranch. He is a hoaxer. His model
calculated _correctly_ and without bogus numbers (like 100/12 =
350) would place the balloon dozens of miles away. The "wind
information" he uses actually show the winds to be much too
strong and blowing in the wrong direction to take the balloons
to the Foster Ranch, unless you cheat with your math like Moore
did or make highly unreasonable assumptions.

This seriously undercuts the claim that Mogul is a "reasonable
explanation" for the Roswell incident. This is the REAL reason
Dave Thomas and the Skeptical Inquirer are trying to defend his
hoax, because they are "pro-Moore," "pro-Mogul," "anti-UFO," and
"anti-Roswell." They are promoting a political, not scientific
agenda and don't care what the math and science really say in
this specific instance. This is the very essence of
pseudoscience. It is also hypocrisy in its purest form.

>is coupled with the similarities in the debris described by the
>eyewitnesses - the balsa sticks, the 'tinfoil,' the tape with
>pastel, pinkish-purple flowers, the smoky gray balloon rubber
>with a burnt odor, the eyelets, the tough paper, the
>four-inch-diameter aluminum pieces and the black box - to the
>materials used in our balloon flight trains, it appears to me
>that it would be difficult to exclude NYU Flight 4 as a likely
>source of the debris that W. W. Brazel found on the Foster
>ranch in 1947." From "The Roswell Incident and Project Mogul"

>http://www.csicop.org/si/9507/roswell.html

>On the one hand we have a limited circulation magazine
>(approximately 40,000 subsribers) publishing comments such as
>those from Thomas; on the other hand we have evidence that
>these have little impact, such results of a 2002 Roper poll:

>"More than two-thirds of Americans say that the government is
>not telling the public everything it knows about UFO activity
>(72 percent) or extraterrestrial life (68 percent)."
>See:

>http://www.scifi.com/ufo/roper/04.html

>Put this alongside findings from a 1997 Time/CNN poll.

>"As for the Roswell incident, nearly two-thirds of the
>respondents to the poll said they believed that a UFO crash-
>landed in a field outside the New Mexico town 50 years ago
>next month."

>See;

>http://edition.cnn.com/US/9706/15/ufo.poll/ ]

>Why give time and effort to debunking the debunkers? It
>doesn't seem to me that CSICOP has made much of a dent in
>majority beliefs.

>If the publishers, editors and writers associated with SI came
>on over to Rudiak's side tomorrow, would it make much of a
>difference?

I'm afraid I don't quite understand the logic here. It would
seem Mr. Scherk is arguing that it is OK for the CSICOP/SI to
aid and abet hoaxes that are "anti-UFO" because they 1) have a
personal belief they are right, 2) have limited circulation, and
3) are losing the argument anyway. What does any of this have to
do with it? If they claim to be a magazine of science, shouldn't
their articles be - gasp! - _scientific_, i.e., make every
effort to be as accurate and factual as possible even when it
runs counter to their beliefs? Don't true science magazines also
denounce hoaxes, even if by one of their own, not apologize for
them?

>William Scott Scherk
>http://www.wsse.ca

Lots of doubletalk from this Mr. Scherk - no? It is also very
interesting that he suddenly appears here on UpDates for the
first time the moment I accuse the SI of perhaps engaging in a
new coverup. Is he just a common net Troll looking for a little
attention? Or is he a shill for the CSICOP/Skeptical Inquirer,
trying desperately to avoid publishing my rebuttal article?
"Forget about it. Nobody reads us anyway."

Despite his attempts to sound almost reasonable here on UpDates,
be sure to check this page on his website, which is probably a
closer approximation to what he really thinks:

http://www.wsse.ca/nucleus2.0/index.php?blogid=1

"Are UFOs real, really really real? No, but UFO nutbags are...

"-- one of my rarely visited is UFO UpDates, where some people
try to prove UFOs are alien craft, others trade third-hand
stories of 'incidents,' others publicize their pathetic
'research' websites, and a sprinkling of skeptics does a
skeptical duty. What is funny about the list are occasional
eruptions of intemperate remarks, and the snarky acronyms for
such outfits as CSICOP. There are some people there still raking
the ashes of a Brazilian UFO hoax from 1952! There is also a
present tussle between an admitted hoaxer, and those he
torments, with a continuing yap-a-thon about some cannabis
conviction 27 years ago."

Since we are all nothing more than "UFO nutbags," in Mr.
Scherk's mind, this apparently justifies the Skeptical Inquirer
publishing anything they want that's "anti-UFO-nutbag," even if
it involves omission, distortion, defamation, and promotion of
an "anti-UFO-nutbag" hoax, all in the name of "science and
reason" of course.


David Rudiak








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 6

                 Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 -

From: Ray Dickenson <editor@perceptions.couk.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 01:48:19 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 10:08:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 -


>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:10:58 -0500
>Subject: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

Hi,

Has anyone noticed resemblance of Maussan's confidence to what
John Keel described as a powerful but ultimately destructive
predictive force allowing contactees (in particular) to make
successful predictions, but leading up to a grand debacle?

Keel called it "the tiger behind the door" and hinted it had
caused cult deaths. Think he said that in "UFOs: Operation
Trojan Horse" 1971

cheers
Ray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







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   Dec > Dec 6

              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 20:53:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 10:37:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - McCoy


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 10:43:16 -0600
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03


>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:56:10 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:10:58 -0500
>>>Subject: Maussan Ufologist Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>INEXPLICATA
>>>The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
>>>December 4, 2003

>>>SOURCE: Diario de Yucatan (M=E9xico)
>>>DATE: 12/4/03

>>>"Our Lives Will Change on the 12th", claims Jaime Maussan

>>>Ufologist Jaime Maussan, who has spent recent years lecturing on
>>>the subject at different venues throughout the country, remarked
>>>two nights ago at the Teatro Merida that "Something special will
>>>happen on December 12th or a meteorite will strike us, bringing
>>>about the end of the world."

<snip>

>>We have con-men and pathological liars too.

>Yes, sir. And some of them even blunder admissions to same! Any
>comment, Mr. Roberts?

Hello Al, Dick,

I had a Jehova's Witness co-worker tell me, in 1972, that the
world was going to end on Feburary 12th (I have no idea the
singificance of the 12th day of the month unless it's due to my
Ex and I getting married on the 12th of June. Hmmm. Anyway, this
rather annoying fellow, sold his worldly possessions, cleared up
his affairs, which there were several ah, affairs - there is a
long story to this. On Feb. 13th, the next day, (as the Sun came
up over the snowy Blue Mountains of Eastern Oregon, as it had
for at least several eons, (Okay, the the Blues are about 10
millon years old, our Jehova's Witness hero walked in and said:
"Well, Jehova changed his mind."!

They needed to recalculate the "Begats" in the Bible or
something like that,too.

Maussman doesn't have that opportunity.


GT McCoy








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                   PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - 12-07-03

From: Stephen Bassett <Disclosure2003@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 05:34:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 10:45:10 -0500
Subject: PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - 12-07-03



PRG
Paradigm Research Group
PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - December 7, 2003



PRG Server is Down

Due to a server crash all PRG websites (Paradigm Clock, X-PPAC,
X-Conference, Citizen Hearing and Disclosure2003) are down.
However, the good people at Oznet are working quickly to restore
the sites - hopefully within 48 hours.


John Lear Briefing Scenario Redux

Aviator and researcher, John Lear's, intriguing November 2
appearance on Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell was rebroadcast on
November 30. [Reminder: Stephen Bassett's response to John
Lear's hypothetical scenario ("yes" or "no" to disclosure) is
posted at: www.paradigmclock.com/paradigmarticlesindex.html ]

Because the PRG server is down, this response is printed below:


The John Lear Briefing Scenario: Why the Answer is "Yes."
Stephen Bassett

Washington, DC - On November 12, 2003, researcher and
accomplished aviator, John Lear, appeared on Coast to Coast AM
with Art Bell. John Lear is a most interesting man, and it was a
most interesting evening.

The son of the famous creator of the Lear Jet, William Lear,
John is a former Lockheed L-1011 Captain. He has flown over 150
test aircraft and has received every certification granted by
the Federal Aviation Administration. He also holds 18 world
speed records and has worked for 28 different Aircraft
Corporations. During the late 1960's, 1970's and early 1980's he
was a contract pilot for the CIA.

=46rom 1985 to 1992 John plunged into a personal investigation of
extraterrestrial related phenomena. He was a friend of Robert
Lazar and was on hand when Lazar broke with his Area 51 employer
and began speaking out about extraordinary craft of possible
extraterrestrial origin being worked on at that facility.

After seven years of research Lear stepped back from the fray
admitting he was frustrated and burned out. He had paid a heavy
price for his efforts, losing two jobs and receiving various
intimidation. His research was conducted during the last years
of the Cold War, when the United States government was fully
intent on maintaining the "cover-up," and few insiders were
breaking ranks. Lear went public with his overall findings and
then withdrew from the field and the limelight. The legacy of
Lear's work lived on in mail lists and websites. Eleven years
passed. Then he turned up on Art Bell with a message.

The message was in the form of a question and has come to be
referred to as the John Lear Briefing Scenario. It has been
circulated extensively on the Internet. Lear asked Art to
pretend the U.S. Government had selected Art Bell to make the
disclosure decision after being fully briefed on the facts
surrounding the extraterrestrial presence. As it happens, John
had presented the same scenario to me the night before his
appearance on Coast to Coast AM with Bell. If these are the
facts, do you authorize disclosure to the people - yay or nay?

I answered, "yes." Bell answered, "no." Lear agreed with Bell.

Art's response was consistent with the position he has held on
disclosure and repeated on his program over the years - the
truth regarding the extraterrestrial presence is too disturbing
and too dangerous for public consumption and should be withheld
until such time as the government feels the public can deal with
the facts. And to his credit, Art acknowledged some would find
this position conflicted for a man who had devoted years
developing a program dedicated to providing alternative
information to its listeners. But that's the way he felt.

I requested an opportunity to come on Coast to Coast AM with Art
or George Noory and offer the reasons why the answer to John
Lear's Briefing Scenario must be "yes." In the meantime, here
are the arguments for a "yes" response to the Lear Briefing
Scenario.

First we need to consider the matter of "secondhand information"
(or thirdhand, fourth-hand=E2=80=A6). In criminal law it is referred
to as "hearsay," and most of you know it is not admissible in
court except under specific circumstances. What someone tells
you may or may not be true - and that extends to
extraterrestrials. Just because they have really, really hot
vehicles and can pass through walls, doesn't mean they can't
lie.

There are many scenarios. Just about every researcher has one -
 a well intentioned effort to describe the "big picture." It's
irresistible. You draw on everything you have heard, read and
seen, and much of it is secondhand.

To be fair, in John Lear's posited scenario you are asked to
assume the information to be absolutely true, then make your
decision. This is fine for the purpose of a thought experiment.
In the non-experimental, real world it is not practical. In
making a decision of such magnitude the truth or falsity of the
information is of no small importance.

For those, then, who wish to use this scenario as a basis for
making the real world argument against disclosure, consider
this: after 56 years of research in the modern era of ufology,
there are a few certainties you can take to the bank. Two of
these are: 1) there is an extraterrestrial presence engaging the
human race, and 2) no one in the field of extraterrestrial
related phenomena research/activism knows the big picture. No
one has it right. If they are well intentioned and paying
attention, they very likely have some of it right, a piece here
and there. And if you took all the correct pieces from all the
researchers, you might have a mosaic which came close to the
truth.

And the reason this is so is that everyone's big picture,
however awful or sanguine, is composed in large measure of
secondhand information, hearsay, and much of it is simply not
true. Not true because of government dispensed disinformation,
well intentioned misinterpretation, outright hoaxes by private
parties, simple mistake, delusion and even alien mendacity.

Thus it is that any decision to delay the truth process based
upon any posited scenario has the profound deficiency of being
based upon a substantial portion of false information. In other
words, because of the cover-up it is not possible to establish a
fully valid scenario. Without a valid scenario we cannot decide
to end the cover-up. This is not a circular argument the human
race can afford.

Without the comfort of a valid big picture scenario, it is
necessary to fall back upon first principals. There are many,
but one stands out. Does the human race wish to move forward in
ignorance and fear driven by government imposed information
embargoes or advance with as much truth as can be wrung from
science, common sense and government files?

There have been many arguments put forth in many forums for
disclosure. They would fill a dozen articles. Most of you have
read or heard many over the years. Let's take another tack. For
those who may feel this response has been begging the question,
let's take the heart of John Lear's Briefing Scenario and answer
it piece by piece. [Lear's scenario is shown in blue font.]

[Lear] So here's what happened, Art. We'll use some videos and
stills. Our first UFO recoveries were in the late '30s. We made
a couple in the beginning of the '40s and then came Roswell,
which the public found out about.

[Bassett] The Roswell case already approaches a 100% public
awareness quotient in the U.S. and is considered a likely
crashed UFO by a majority of Americans. Learning there were
other crashed vehicles will be much like learning other U.S.
corporations are cooking their books.

[Lear] We got 2 live aliens from Roswell. One died shortly there
after and one lived till 1956. And we found out so far there are
18 different alien species that we know about monitoring Earth.

[Bassett] Fifty percent of the polled public already believes
some UFOs are alien craft with aliens in them. Eighteen species?
This is probably preferable to one species. It only confirms the
galaxy to be teeming with life. The human race is one of
eighteen (hundreds? thousands? millions?) of sentient life
forms. They know about you, but you don't know about them,
because a small cabal of men operating in secret believe they
know what is best for the rest of humanity.

[Lear] Some are good and some are hostile, most are indifferent.

[Bassett] This describes every nation's tourists. No one would
expect it to be otherwise.

[Lear] We found out that we are the experimental product, if you
will, of an alien race who we never met and we don't know who
they are.

[Bassett] The implication is genetic engineering and not the
creation of life itself by aliens from inorganic matter, which
if true, would be challenging, but in either case is not
provable.

[Lear] All we know is that the Grays are cybernetic organisms,
glorified robots if you will, who work here at the behest of
their employers monitoring us through abductions.

[Bassett] A cybernetic organism was just elected the Governor of
California. The issue of abductions is now in the public domain.
A good case can me made that more damage will occur to
abductees, if the truth process is delayed.

[Lear] We were never able to find out what the experiment is all
about except that we have been externally corrected about 65
times. And they, the aliens, refer to us as "Containers."
There's been speculation that the souls our bodies contain are
the reason for the experiments. But nothing's been proven or
determined.

[Bassett] The scenario itself states that soul "containers" are
a matter of "speculation," and not "proven" or "determined." On
such speculation is the most important information in human
history to be withheld from 99.9999% of the human race? We have
been corrected 65 times? Good. One can only imagine how bad
human behavior might be if there had been no corrections.

[Lear] Since 1938 we've lost over 200 aircraft due to UFO
hostilities and thousands of soldiers in all kinds of different
actions with aliens. Since that time several hundred thousand
civilians have disappeared with no trace.

[Bassett] We lost more aircraft in World War II, and at least
the families knew why. Several hundred thousand civilians have
disappeared in that time frame without alien assistance. Missing
people, while tragic, is not new or shocking.

[Lear] Several thousand of those were eliminated by us because
of their chance encounters with the aliens which we could ill
afford to have publicized.

[Bassett] This would be a bitter pill. However, since "us" means
that humans committed these atrocities and not "all powerful
aliens," the disclosure process would open the way to ending
such actions.

[Lear] A slightly more frightening phenomena known as "human
mutilations" have occurred on a regular basis and are similar to
"cattle mutilations". In that the human or humans are taken from
the street, so to speak, and returned to the same area about 45
minutes to an hour later with their rectums cored out, their
genitals removed, eyes removed from their sockets, and
completely drained of blood. In all cases it appeared that the
mutilation procedures occurred while the persons were still
alive and conscious. O specimens had to be alive for the samples
to be worth anything.

[Bassett] This is perhaps the least likely segment of the
scenario to be valid. However, if true, it would be a challenge
to the public perception of safety and create serious questions
regarding the social contract. It is also true we can't stop
terrorism and will likely live with it indefinitely. Who would
advocate withholding all information of terrorist threats from
the public in order to keep them calm? Thus, when large planes
fly through office windows, the mess would be cleaned up and all
would quickly dismiss the event as odd but unworthy of
explanation? More importantly, who can truly estimate the
defensive power of 260 million people focused on specific
measures? Further, these kinds of "awful truth" examples are
predicated on aliens as not simply "all powerful," but
"godlike." If this were true, one might wonder why it is that
such all powerful, godlike beings have a disconcerting habit of
crashing to the ground, being picked up by military retrieval
teams and hauled off to secret bases dead on arrival?

[Lear] Abductions occur on a daily basis throughout the United
States to at least 10% of the population.

[Bassett] The 10% figure would raise some eyebrows, but the
abduction phenomenon is being discussed on Oprah Winfrey. Again,
it is assumed that total awareness of such a circumstance by an
entire nation offers no relief. Such a case has not been made in
this scenario.

[Lear] When we were first made aware this we protested to the
little gray being we had held in captivity at the YY-2 facility
in Los Alamos, but a deal was struck that in exchange for
advanced technology from the aliens we would allow them to
abduct a very small number of persons and we would periodically
be given a list of those persons abducted. We got something less
than the technology we bargained for and found the abductions
exceeded by a million fold than what we had naively agreed to.

[Bassett] Sounds a little like the NAFTA deal. Thanks to the
need to maintain the cover-up, much of the technology is being
withheld from full public use. Thus, the public gets
shortchanged twice. The people will be angry. They will want to
replace some government personnel. It's about time.

[Lear] In 1954, President Eisenhower met with a representative
of another alien species at Muroc Test Center, which is now
called Edwards Air Force Base. This alien suggested that they
could help us get rid of the Grays but Eisenhower turned down
their offer because they offered no technology.

[Bassett] Perhaps a well informed public might persuade another
president to take that deal.

[Lear] At this point it became apparent to all involved that
there was no such thing as a God, at least how the public
perceives God. Certainly some form of computer recorder stores
information and an occasional miracle is displayed by the aliens
to influence a religious event.

[Bassett] The implication here is that this information would
cause people to turn away from God. It is more likely to turn
people toward God "It became apparent" is not exactly a
convincing measure of certitude. Many things will become
apparent to many people, assuming, of course, they are included.
The influencing of religion would be an interesting component.
It would take far more specifics than what is presented here to
sway committed members of formal religions. And alien miracles
aside, unless these fine off-planet beings can explain their
whereabouts prior to the big bang, those comfortable with a
creator god will have no trouble incorporating these interfering
imps into their faith.

[Lear] This so unnerved Eisenhower that he had "In God We Trust"
put on paper money and coins and put in the Pledge of Allegiance
to reaffirm the public belief in God. Shortly after this it was
determined in meetings between the US and the Russians that the
situation was serious enough that a cold war should be
manufactured as a ruse to divert attention of the public away
from UFOs towards some other scary threat like the H-bomb. It
was also decided to keep the ruse secret from any elected or
appointed official to vet these officials and the ruse was
easier to manage if the top people didn't know about it.

[Bassett] A manufactured war? Has there been any other kind? One
might consider a disclosure process aiming to put the government
back into truth business and break down the walls of the secret
empire, would be a good start toward preventing more
"manufactured" wars and other edifices of government propaganda
and manipulation. How does encouraging and expanding the "black
world" decrease the disruption of the actions of the "black
world?" This is akin to not telling someone they have cancer in
order to spare them the anxiety, while a cure is available to
save them.

[Lear] In the late 1950's NASA was formed to compartmentalize,
containerize, and sanitize information from all space platforms
and vehicles. We sold NASA to the public claiming that all
information would belong to them but they got very little and
even that was highly sanitized.

[Bassett] The dilemma and corruption of NASA is being dissected
on several hundred websites. Again, only disclosure will open
the door to reforming this agency.

[Lear] Our first efforts were to keep the public from learning
about Venus. A very similar planet to Earth and it's population
is very similar to us and just as technologically advanced. We
have learned a lot from them. Starting with the Russian Venera 1
and US Mariner 2, we made Venus look like a lead melting,
volcanic surface, spewing sulfuric acid into a pressurized
atmosphere 90 times that of Earth. And as often the case we
overdid it, and we wondered why nobody asked how a parachute
survived a descent into 800-degree air.

[Bassett] Certainly, present life on another planet would be
profoundly exciting. But given the 25-year public interest in
Mars artifacts, a populated Venus might be anticlimactic. Again,
the public has clearly shown its belief that UFOs are
extraterrestrial craft piloted by extraterrestrials. If some are
Venusians, this does not add much to their charisma. Should they
be Venus bound and not space faring, they would just be our
harmless neighbors.

[Lear] We set up operations in Pine Gap, Australia to preclude
any prying eyes figuring out what we were up to. We regularly
eliminated through extreme prejudice anybody who was part of the
operation and made the least little tiny threat about disclosure
or dissatisfaction with the operation.

[Bassett] Again, these are the actions of humans which
disclosure might prevent in the future.

[Lear] Any space mission that included Mercury, Gemini, Apollo,
Mariner, Voyager, Clementine, and all the rest. All data
initially came transmitted to Pine Gap then it was relayed to
JPL or wherever after sanitizing. We had a little trouble with
amateur radio operators but we figured out how they could
intercept these signals but we managed to deal with that.

[Bassett] Sequestered transmissions and the treatment of space
data as classified is generally known, and the public assumes
the government operates this way.

[Lear] When the Russian threat began to fade we introduced
Vietnam which kept the public occupied for over ten years. The
cover up and personnel to run the operation began to get bigger
and bigger and required more and more money. We were forced to
inflate the defense budget, which soon not enough. Then we got
into the drug business which was still not enough. We were the
ones that looted the savings and loan industry and Wall Street
to boot.

[Bassett] The tragedy of Vietnam, expanding black budget,
growing defense expenditures, government involvement in drug
smuggling and the savings and loan fiasco are all known to the
public and were covered by the media. They are all outrageous in
their own right. Learning they were tied in some way to
alternative agendas such as the UFO cover-up may increase, but
will not multiply, the outrage.

[Lear] It is so out of control now most people want immunity and
want out.

[Bassett] Good. Grant them immunity and let them out.

[Lear] But there is so much secrecy and so many double and
triple blinds in place that it's unlikely that this thing can
ever be dismantled.

[Bassett] The question presented by the scenario was to disclose
or not to disclose. It was not about how difficult the truth
process would be. Life is difficult. Good government is
difficult. Major change is difficult. Failure to rise to the
difficult is how nations and empires fall. Abraham Lincoln
believed America could only fall from the inside, not form
outside forces. Such an outcome could only be accomplished with
intense secrecy and systemic lying - exactly the circumstances
evolving since 1947.

[Lear] And even if you give us the go ahead to spill the beans
to the public it's unlikely they will get anything more than
"yes, we recovered a flying saucer and yes, there was an
occupant" but that's all we're gonna tell ya.

[Bassett] Ah, but this is exactly the definition of disclosure:
the formal acknowledgment of the extraterrestrial presence.
Whatever else is learned is between the people and the
government. It is a political process. There are no guarantees,
and the public might, contrary to the fundamental tenet of this
scenario, go right back to sleep - hit the snooze button. But
they must have that choice.

[Lear] So go ahead and roll the tape for Mr. Bell. What you see
here is what human mutilations look like. That one was a male
about 27 years old. That one is film of dead aliens being pulled
from the wreckage of a craft that crashed in Olancha, California
in the '50s. That craft you see over there was over 250ft. in
diameter and had to be buried on the spot. That site is in Utah
near Dugway Proving Grounds. The object you're looking at now is
the as the Kecksburg Acorn which was brought to Wright Patt in
the mi being tied down to a stretcher. He was supposedly from
Tao Ceti.

[Bassett] Unless the production values are very good, this film
is going straight to video. Most kids today will find the video
record doesn't measure up to the special effects standards of
last year's game cube.

[Lear] These pictures you're looking at now are structures on
the Moon. That's the tower in Sinus Medii and it's over seven
miles tall. And that thing over there is what we call the
Colossus of Oguram(sp) in Mare Crisium. We don't know what it
does but the machine itself is bigger than Brooklyn, New York.
Now those are videos of the domes covering the craters. As you
can see, some are in a very advanced state of decay.

[Bassett] This is old news. These issues have been in play for
three decades. In general, artifacts on the Moon or Mars
representing long past entities are the safest and least
disruptive kind of information the public can learn.

[Lear] These are 5 second slides of the 18 different alien
species we are looking at. That one there is the most gruesome
looking. The guards at one facility are carefully indoctrinated
over several months being shown pictures similar to but not
exactly like the alien. Only when he'd been acclimatized, so to
speak, of the horrible looking beings are they allowed to stand
in security positions. Before these acclimatizations were done,
we had two guards die of a heart attack as the aliens came down
the hallway un

[Bassett] That's what happens when you don't tell people what is
going on. The cover-up is scarier than the truth. Since the
aliens can pretty much come and go as they please, it might be
nice if the people knew they were here, just to keep those heart
attacks to a minimum should they decide to drop in unannounced
on the Larry King Show.

[Lear] And this last clip is of the Kennedy assassination.
You've heard of the second gunman theory? Well, this is the
second camera that recorded exactly what happened and we had 4
gunmen. And the bottom line was that Kennedy had to go. He
insisted on releasing what little alien information we had told
him about and he was trying to withdraw troops from Vietnam
which we were using as a diversion for the public.

[Bassett] The only people upset about this will be the legion of
authors with Kennedy conspiracy books in galleys with the wrong
theory. The public will appreciate finally knowing the truth.
Actually, multiply that appreciation by all the truths to be
found, once the fear of looking is put aside.

[Lear] After Kennedy we never told any President anything. Nixon
knew because he was briefed as VP in 1952. That's how we knew
where to take Jackie Gleason to Homestead Air Force Base to see
the alien bodies we had in storage there.

[Bassett] What an odd America the secrecy cabal wants - a place
where the greatest scientists in the world must be kept in the
dark for their own good, while a television comic gets to see
alien bodies. While this is compatible with a paradigm where
Arnold Schwarzenegger becomes governor of California and Dennis
Miller has to ward off demands he run for the Senate, do you
really want to say "no" to disclosure and maintain such a status
quo? ___________

There you have it. When you break it down, it doesn't seem so
frightening, does it? Other scenarios are out there. Break them
down as well. The answer will be the same.

No disrespect is aimed at John Lear. All of these responses are
debatable. But at the core of the most profound transition in
history is a question being asked of every living human, whether
they are as yet aware or not: do you want to build your life and
your nation with truths or lies?

History has been quite consistent on the outcomes. Those who
choose lies are diminished or even destroyed. Those who choose
truths persevere or even flourish.



_____________________________________________________

Paradigm Research Group
ParadigmRG@aol.com
URL: www.paradigmclock.com
Phone: 202-431-2459
4938 Hampden Lane, #161
Bethesda, MD 20814
_____________________________________________________

1st Annual Exopolitics Expo - The X-Conference
Hilton Washington DC North/Gaithersburg - April 16-18, 2004
www.x-conference.com
_____________________________________________________

"There is almost no limit to what you can accomplish,
if you are willing to give away the credit."
_____________________________________________________

"Intellectual passion is found at the intersection
of fact and implication."









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   Dec > Dec 6

                        Re: 'Strange Secrets' - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 07:47:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 10:47:49 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets' - White


>From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:04:36 -0600
>Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets'

<snip>

>Perhaps a better question would be: Knowing how clumsy, ham-
>fisted and unsubtle the government and the military is in most
>cases, how is it that they're not frequently caught in the act
>of mutilating these cattle?

Like the mutilation that occurred in daylight hours, over a 45
minute time span, during which the ranchers were only about 600
feet away?  I heard about that one on a nighttime talk show but
being a few years ago, I can't provide further details,
apologies.


Eleanor White








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              Re: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003 -

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:41:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 10:49:31 -0500
Subject: Re:  PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003 -


>From: Stephen G. Bassett <Disclosure2003@aol.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:51:06 -0500
>Subject: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003

>PRG
>Paradigm Research Group
>Update - December 1, 2003

>The X-Conference
>www.x-conference.com

>PRG is pleased to announce the addition of Dr. Robert Wood, Ryan
>Wood and Peter Robbins to the speaker platform. There is now a
>full contingent of 22 presenters with the Key Note speaker and
>additional panel discussion participants to be selected early in
>2004.

Hello Stephen,

You continue to fail to address the legitimate questions I am
posing to you regarding the hiring of Greer to speak at your
upcoming UFO conference. I am re-posting my inquiry to you in
hopes that you will take the time to address what are legitimate
points, questions and concerns that I have raised in regard to
Steven Greer.

Here it is 'one mo' time! I keep putting em right down the
center of the plate... take a swing already! Just please...
address the points I've raised directly. Myself and other
Listers are waiting to hear your responses.

I wrote on Sunday November 30th:

----------------------------------------------------------------


I'm going to 'assume' that you missed the post from me where I
ask you some pointed questions regarding your reasons for
inviting Dr. Greer to speak at this conference. I'd hate to
think that you're avoiding the questions or simply ignoring me.
Here are the questions once again. Could you please take the
time to respond?

In light of the following, how do you justify inviting Greer to
speak at _any_ UFO related conference?

1. The plagiarism by Greer of the work of other ufologists.

2. His incompetent handling of the entire disclosure effort.
i.e.; Failure to properly vet the witnesses _before_ going
public with them. His introduction of several _unrelated_ issues
at the eleventh hour - much to the chagrin of his own
advisors/people. ie; space-based weapons and free energy.

3. Un-substantiated (and very public) paranoid rants about
massive government conspiracy theories. (ex: his most recent one
about a 'phony/staged alien invasion by the US government' and
'98% of all abductions are carried out by clandestine factions
of the US government...)

These are accusations that need to be substantiated and which
places the very people needed to secure public hearings on the
subject of UFOs in an adversarial position. Piss-poor tactics
and counter-productive if you ask me!

4. His ripping-off of the public by charging exorbitant amounts
of money via CSETI (Geez, even the name he chose for his own
group is a rip-off!) for people to wave flashlights around in
cow pastures in order to vector-in UFOs.

5. His ripping-off of a Scottish UFO videotape while on a visit
there, forcing the Scots researchers to ask for help on this and
other UFO related e-mail Lists.

6. The abuse and slandering of several respected members of this
e-mail List by himself and his late assistant. Abrasive and
egotistical acts and behavior which many of us will not soon
forget.

Stephen, in spite of all of the above, you still publicly
support Greer and even go as far as inviting him to speak at a
UFO related conference. My question to you is simple... "Why?"

Can you please address the points I raised above without
skirting around them? I'd really like to know if you are just
choosing to ignore all of that. And if so, why.

>There are many fine researchers and activists with the
>appropriate focus who would have been invited,

How does Richard Hoagland fit in? What is "appropriate" about
the focus of a man who makes wild predictions on public radio
about UFO 'mothership' landings in Arizona? There are 'others'
on your list of invited speakers who are 'questionable' but I'll
just stick to Greer and Hoagland for now.

>Fortunately, these researchers are presenting at
>other established conferences such as the Bay Area UFO Expo,
>IUFO Winter Conference, MUFON National Symposium and many more.
>For a complete list of upcoming conferences go to:
>www.paradigmclock.com/conferences.html

Gee, the paucity of UFO conferences must be the reason you are
mounting this one. Why I was only yesterday thinking to myself
how what we really need is -another- UFO conference. (Yawn.)

>John Lear's Appearance on Art Bell

I promised to keep my inquiry to Greer and Hoagland so I won't
touch 'John Lear' with a ten foot cattle prod!

>"Intellectual passion is found at the intersection
>of fact and implication."

Where do _you_ find intellectual -honesty- Stephen?

Awaiting your response...

John Velez, Activist








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   Dec > Dec 6

                 Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 -

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:51:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 10:58:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:40:18 EST
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:10:58 -0500
>>Subject: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>INEXPLICATA
>>The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
>>December 4, 2003

>>SOURCE: Diario de Yucatan (M=E9xico)
>>DATE: 12/4/03

>>"Our Lives Will Change on the 12th", claims Jaime Maussan

>>Ufologist Jaime Maussan, who has spent recent years lecturing on
>>the subject at different venues throughout the country, remarked
>>two nights ago at the Teatro Merida that "Something special will
>>happen on December 12th or a meteorite will strike us, bringing
>>about the end of the world."

<snip>

>Did anyone confirm if Maussan actually stated this?

<snip>


Yes, Maussan was here in Miami this Wed Dec. 3 in a live TV
program from 8 to 9 PM. at channel 41 named " A Mano Limpia" (To
Clean Hands) directed by Oscar Haza, and I heard a saw him
saying those predictions. Plus, in to occasions he assert that
he is not an ufologist or an investigator, that he is only a
journalist.

Also:

1) He suggests that all Crop Circles are ET made.

2) A girl who took a photo of an entity at night in a street of
Mexico became sick and suggested this may happened to the
hundreds of women killed in Juarez.

3) He affirmed that Monsignor Corrado Balducci, the Pope's
spokesman, said that any Catholics who do not believed in ETs
will be ex-comunicated. (In Chile, on Nov 16, Daniel Munoz,
Maussan's righthand-man, affirm that the Vatican is ready to say
that UFO pilots are angels)

4) Maussan, also, showed a video of a circular spacecraft flying
around the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center in New York
shortly after, the September 11 terrorist strike occurred, and
suggest that another big attack could happened in US on December
12.

Oscar Haza announced yesterday that he invited Maussan for
another interview on his program next week. This time I will
tape the program.

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center





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   Dec > Dec 6

                        Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Lewis

From: Stephen MILES Lewis <ufoupdates@elfis.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:14:19 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 11:01:37 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Lewis


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:34:44 -0000
>Subject: 'Strange Secrets'

<snip>


>Naturally Andrew, it does beg one rather obvious question. Why
>would the US government go to all that trouble involving
>expense, bad press, financial loss to their beloved farmers,
>intense media interest, the risk of getting caught and so on,
>just to carry out what would be a perfectly acceptable health
>check on domestic cattle? Gee, they could even set up their own
>faux wholesale company and buy the cattle in, without raising an
>eyebrow. It is so stupid a conclusion that it beggars belief.

<snip>

Remember the NIDS report ...

Unexplained Cattle Deaths and the Emergence of a Transmissible
Spongiform Encephalopathy (TSE) Epidemic in North America, (1.6
MB)

http://216.128.67.116/pdf/cattledeaths_tse_epidemic.pdf

On why the bodies are left ...

Why Leave the Body? This question has plagued investigators ever
since the first well-publicized investigations of mutilations
began back in the early 1970s. As any reader familiar with the
animal mutilation topic will  agree, a plethora of hypotheses
have sprung up about the perpetrators and their motives for
animal mutilations. One of the most quoted hypotheses involves a
government operation to monitor radiation or biological warfare
testing. But the question �why leave the body?� has never been
adequately answered by these hypotheses.

The government can just as easily test their own herds, the
counter-argument goes, or obtain carcasses from a slaughterhouse
if they wish to covertly monitor radiation. Thus, for this and
many other reasons, the evidence points away from the government
as perpetrators of animal mutilations.

Vallee (56) and Smith (57) have suggested intriguing hypotheses
that leaving the cow carcass on the ground constitutes a
deliberate message. In common with both these authors, we
suggest that implicit in the deliberate lack of an attempt to
conceal the carcass on the part of the perpetrators of animal
mutilation, is a brutal warning.

We suggest that attention is being deliberately focused on the
mutilated animals. Further, we suggest the warning is that the
human food chain is compromised, probably with a prion-
associated infectious agent that still remains mostly
undetected.


On how long this sort of knowledge has been around ...

If the hypothesis is correct, animal mutilation operations are
carried out by a knowledgeable group that is cognizant of the
biochemistry and infectious potential of prion diseases and
their fatal spread. How difficult is this knowledge to come by?
Beginning in 1958, Dr. Carleton Gajdusek began mailing kuru
brains from the wilds of New Guinea to the central
neuropathology facility at NIH in Bethesda and Fort Detrick.
Hence, these fatal neurodegenerative diseases have been known in
the United  States, but not highly publicized, since the late
1950s or early 1960s. Only recently, due to the intensive prion
research carried in the past two decades has the extent of prion
replication become obvious in the eye, tongue, anus/large
intestine and reproductive organs (see above) of animals. If
these specific tissues are indeed removed during animal
mutilation for the purpose of prion monitoring, this implies an
intensive knowledge of prion physiology, biochemistry and
infectiousness, involving research results not published until
relatively recently, on the part of the perpetrators of animal
mutilations.

On the implications for the future ...

As discussed above, some of the harrowing consequences of the
spread of this TSE infectious agent may lie in a subset of the
epidemic of Alzheimer�s disease that is currently ravaging the
United States healthcare system. According to CDC estimates (43)
there are now 4 million Alzheimer�s  patients in the United
States, with annual health care costs between $100-500 billion.
With the aging  population, this cost is projected to soon rise
to $1 trillion when 7-8 million have the disease (43). There is
also the question of the mysterious early onset Alzheimer�s,
currently afflicting about 200,000 Americans. We have presented
the evidence that thousands of possible CJD cases may be
misdiagnosed as Alzheimer�s and therefore the extent of this CJD
epidemic in the United States lies beneath the public�s radar.
We hypothesize that the animal mutilators know and have known of
the potential damage to humans of this infectious agent in the
human food chain.

Thus, we hypothesize that animal mutilations serve as both a
sampling operation AND a warning.

A central implication of this paper is that animal mutilations
serve two purposes: as both a covert  monitoring operation for
the prion infectious agent and as a very graphic public warning,
a display  that monitoring is being done. The body on the
ground, with glaring evidence of highly skilled surgery, serves
as a calling card and a warning. From the evidence presented in
this paper, we believe the warning is: �A major human food
source (beef, elk, deer) is contaminated.�

There are several predictions that arise out of the animal
mutilation-prion monitoring hypothesis, since the evidence seems
to suggest that mutilations will be followed, years or even
decades later, by a TSE outbreak:

(a) That a rather large outbreak of CWD/TSE will occur in the
area around Great Falls Montana in the next several years.

(b) Similar large outbreaks will occur in Argentina and in
Northern New Mexico in the next few years (the first six cases
of CWD were found on and near White Sands missile ground October
2002-February 2003).

(c) In the next year or two, there will be an unambiguous link
drawn between CWD and sporadic CJD in humans in the United
States.

(d) Even though the state of California has mandated a ban on
importing elk and deer from other states, the highly intense
animal mutilation (>30 animals mutilated in 5 years) cluster on
and near a ranch in N. California, predicts an outbreak of
CWD/TSE in northern California in 5-10 years.

(e) In the coming years, as new methods for distinguishing CJD
from Alzheimer�s comes on line, there will be a dramatic
increase in the incidence of �sporadic� CJD in the population of
the United States.








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   Dec > Dec 7

              Re: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003 -

From: Steven Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 11:37:30 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 10:32:18 -0500
Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003 -


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:41:47 -0500
>Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003

>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:41:47 -0500
>Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003

>>From: Stephen G. Bassett <Disclosure2003@aol.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:51:06 -0500
>>Subject: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003

>>PRG
>>Paradigm Research Group
>>Update - December 1, 2003

>>The X-Conference
>>www.x-conference.com

>>PRG is pleased to announce the addition of Dr. Robert Wood, Ryan
>>Wood and Peter Robbins to the speaker platform. There is now a
>>full contingent of 22 presenters with the Key Note speaker and
>>additional panel discussion participants to be selected early in
>>2004.

>Hello Stephen,

>You continue to fail to address the legitimate questions I am
>posing to you regarding the hiring of Greer to speak at your
>upcoming UFO conference. I am re-posting my inquiry to you in
>hopes that you will take the time to address what are legitimate
>points, questions and concerns that I have raised in regard to
>Steven Greer.


John,

Address your criticisms of Steven Greer to Steven Greer.

Steven Bassett








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   Dec > Dec 7

              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 11:16:45 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 10:28:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Boone


From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net>
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:51:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:40:18 EST
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:10:58 -0500
>>>Subject: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>INEXPLICATA
>>>The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
>>>December 4, 2003

>>>SOURCE: Diario de Yucatan (M=E9xico)
>>>DATE: 12/4/03

>>>"Our Lives Will Change on the 12th", claims Jaime Maussan

>>>Ufologist Jaime Maussan, who has spent recent years lecturing on
>>>the subject at different venues throughout the country, remarked
>>>two nights ago at the Teatro Merida that "Something special will
>>>happen on December 12th or a meteorite will strike us, bringing
>>>about the end of the world."

<snip>

>>Did anyone confirm if Maussan actually stated this?

<snip>


Y>es, Maussan was here in Miami this Wed Dec. 3 in a live TV
>program from 8 to 9 PM. at channel 41 named " A Mano Limpia" (To
>Clean Hands) directed by Oscar Haza, and I heard a saw him
>saying those predictions. Plus, in to occasions he assert that
>he is not an ufologist or an investigator, that he is only a
>journalist.
>
>Also:
>
>1) He suggests that all Crop Circles are ET made.

>2) A girl who took a photo of an entity at night in a street of
>Mexico became sick and suggested this may happened to the
>hundreds of women killed in Juarez.

>3) He affirmed that Monsignor Corrado Balducci, the Pope's
>spokesman, said that any Catholics who do not believed in ETs
>will be ex-comunicated. (In Chile, on Nov 16, Daniel Munoz,
>Maussan's righthand-man, affirm that the Vatican is ready to say
>that UFO pilots are angels)

>4) Maussan, also, showed a video of a circular spacecraft flying
>around the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center in New York
>shortly after, the September 11 terrorist strike occurred, and
>suggest that another big attack could happened in US on December
>12.

>Oscar Haza announced yesterday that he invited Maussan for
>another interview on his program next week. This time I will
>tape the program.


Dr. Sanchez-Ocejo, thank you for cofirming that data.

I'm glad to know you're in Miami! I've tons of relatives in
Florida and I'll ask them if they watch the show Maussan was on.
Also do you have a website where we can send people to visit
your center? (pardon me if I've missed something I've been up
all night drawing and painting...)

What alarms me is that a journalist like Maussan would go public
with something so astounding without official disclosures.

Mixing religion and science is good when done right. In ancient
Africa, science and religion were hand in hand until some
decided that only a select few should hold the power. Humans
have a tendency to do that. Save mankind by making mankind
ignorant.

For the Catholic Church to make a statement like that is dangerous
from my viewpoint. Unless they've got so massive an amount of data
no one else has and it's been scrutinized in an objective forum.

I remember when mentioning UFOs around the Catholic Church would
get one excommunicated ( or as we used to say in the Bowery
'excruciated' :)

So now we're to believe they've turned 180 degrees? If they
claim angels then are demons not far behind? How come these
people can claim the existence of demons and angels and no one
shows up with the nets, straight-jackets, and prozac but if
someone mentioned UFOs/aliens they get a one way ticket to
'abducteeville'?

I submit here and now that the researchers and scientists in
Ufology must take a stand and we should all support them in
presenting only the most solid, verfiable data toward evidence
and proof before another 'Heaven's Gate' or some other group
bs's the public into a panic.

I'm holding back myself because I've read documents by the
volume and taped lectures from over 50 years ago that went over
the UFO issue in depth and what's alarming is that data from
half a century ago is what the best UFOlogists are coming up
with only recently or within the past 10 years. I can't go into
it because again that data is surrounded by far too many people
and their irresponsible behavior and if taken out of context can
be detrimental. I'll wait til more seasoned scientific minds
take hold and their research processes it.

Given the history of the Catholic Church for killing whomever
came forward to make common, common sense and solid science it's
a wonder our present Pope, a man I greatly admire, hasn't kicked
more butt regarding the issues of truth and science and dogma
and tradition.

Be careful. Mythology and science don't mix well when money and
politics are it's bedfellows.

Best,

Greg












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              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 11:51:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 10:46:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Shell


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:28:09 EST
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>These 'messages' pollute and confuse the raw data stream and
>open the door to those of ill will who would use the public's
>thirst for data and lead them to an unpleasant end.

I would suggest that this kind of thing has been associated with
UFOs from the very beginning, and it's probably not going away
anytime soon. As for being able to control what the public is
exposed to, good luck. Particularly when it involves information
coming out of Mexico and South America, where you're in the
unfortunate position of having an "open minded" public (a result
of cultural differences) that will apparently accept pretty much
anything. BVM riding a chupacabra out of a UFO? Sure! Why not!

These apocalyptic messages are part of the data stream, like it
or not. Don't blame the data. Blame the UFO community's
continuing inability to create a solid organization that has the
marketing sophistication to establish itself as a reliable
source for timely, well-researched information. When someone
reads a UFO report, they should think, "I'll go to the
(whatever) site and see what they say about it, because I know
they won't blow marsh gas up my butt." And if the news media
needs to make a call to a UFO expert for an interview, they can
call that organization because they know they'll get
intelligent, articulate spokespeople instead of cranks, pro or
con. You can't control the data, but you can control the image
of your organization. And over time, you can create a strong
signal source that might be heard above the noise.









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                       Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:19:30 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 10:53:39 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Roberts


>>From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:04:36 -0600
>>Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets'

Pilgrims,

Tim wrote:

>>Perhaps a better question would be: Knowing how clumsy, ham-
>>fisted and unsubtle the government and the military is in most
>>cases, how is it that they're not frequently caught in the act
>>of mutilating these cattle?

Surely this wouldn't be the same military who are so good at
keeping the existence of extraterrestrials, and their
malfunctioning craft, secret?

Or perhaps there's _two_ governments? One who pretends to be
incompetent and the other, the one that really knows everything.


Happy Trails

Andy









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                  Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 19:42:18 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:01:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Harney


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 16:10:19 +0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 17:39:15 -0200
>>Subject: Trindade Material - Part III

><snip>

>>The Navy's secret service interviewed 48 witnesses, including
>>sailors, corporals, sergeants, three officers and admiral Paulo
>>Moreira da Silva - the highest-rank officer among the militaries
>>to have seen the UFO. In one of the meetings attended by
>>Barauna, several photographs of UFOs were laid on a table,
>>brought from other countries and belonging to the Navy's files.
>>Among them, Barauna's shots had been included.

>>The witnesses, including admiral Moreira da Silva, were asked to
>>identify the craft that had been sighted over Trindade. Only one
>>sailor misidentified the object, selecting a flying saucer that
>>had been photographed by the Argentine Navy in Baia Blanca.

>>Within the premises, Barauna was able to verify the existence of
>>a UFO photograph that had been taken by a sergeant. It had been
>>registered by a slow-speed "box camera", and it was the first
>>unidentified object seen over Trindade Island, a few months
>>before the Almirante Saldanha's experience.

><snip>

>Thanks for this series of translations; very important
>information. It should give the British Johns heartburn since it
>leaves no doubt about the large number of witnesses and the
>interviews of them which clearly establsihed the validity of the
>case and how seriously it was taken by the Navy and government.

No, I don't think it will "give the British Johns heartburn",
especially as this latest account makes the story even more
ridiculous, and follows the tradition of disagreeing with other
accounts in various details.

However, I am informed that work on the photographs and the
questions about witnesses (positive or negative) is continuing,
so I'll be brief. Petit's account of what Barauna told him does
not add anything except confusion. It seems incredible that when
Barauna was trying to take his photos he was impeded by the
sailors "frantically running about the ship's deck". Really! Was
that the state of discipline in the Brazilian Navy in the 1950s?
What a rabble, eh? Or is it possible that Barauna was grossly
exaggerating for dramatic (or comic?) effect?

Not only that, but when he has got his pictures, the captain
orders him to develop the film, after he has finished "trembling
all over", despite the fact that, in the disused laboratory the
developing tank is broken and the developer and fixer are
apparently well past their sell-by dates. So why was the captain
apparently prepared to risk having the film ruined instead of
having it developed ashore, as was presumably done with all
other films taken on the voyage? Was he a bit simple, or
something?

Meanwhile - to add to the element of farce - men were "waiting
anxiously" and some were "carrying magnifying glasses" in the
hope of examining the negatives. So it seems that, (if we
believe the accounts) although Brazilian sailors of the period
tended to panic when anything unusual happened, at least they
didn't forget to carry their magnifying glasses with them at all
times.

And that's not all. When Barauna got the negatives to his
private laboratory, he decided to experiment with an enhancement
technique, so he "worked first with the least important
negative, the one that shows the UFO at a longer distance". Why
didn't he use one that didn't show the UFO at all, which would
be even less important?

I look forward to reading further hilarious details.


John Harney








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                    Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 19:55:21 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:03:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Miller


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 20:40:35 -0000
>Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions
>>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:39:34 -0000

>>On the contrary sir, you do have enough evidence.

>>Criminals are often convicted just on the basis of witness
>>testimony alone.

>>It is a very old cliche within Ufology

>May be they are. But the difference is:

>* We know humans exist
>* We know some humans are criminals

>Your cliche has nothing whatsoever to do with the existence, or
>not, of ET.


Andy,

Interesting you should bounce back on this one. Sounds like a
sore point.

So you know Humans exist do you? Jolly good. Errrr how do you
know they exist? Ah! Let's see now. You experience yourself as
one and you see and interact with others.

Many hundreds of thousands of people would say the same thing
about aliens, at least in terms of seeing them and interacting
with them. But you don't believe that. In fact I have no doubt,
regardless of whatever denial you might issue, that you think
these people are nothing more or less than mad.

As it happens, I believe that people who insist "Andy Roberts"
exists are mad as well. I don't believe them and I have no
acceptable proof that he exists, no proof at least that is
acceptable to me. Birth certificate? A picture? Meeting "you"?
I'm sorry but that is not acceptable proof. Silly isn't it? Now
you know how you're viewed by everybody else.

We know some Humans are criminals? All right then. Oddly enough,
we're in agreement on this, in a roundabout sort of way. You
see, we also know that some who are alleged to be criminals and
are convicted as such, are not and are victims of miscarriages
of justice. So a convicted thief, who happens to be innocent,
stands there and screams out the truth. But no one believes him
and.............I can't go on. I'm sure you're bright enough to
finish it off yourself but for me, the irony is dripping so much
it's landing on the keyboard and interfering with my typing.

My clich=E9 has everything to do with the existence of ET. The
fact is that you require a far higher level of proof of the
existence of ET than a court of law does prior to sentencing a
man to death. Never mind what the principles of conviction are,
the practicalities are different.

You've got yourself on one hell of a high pedestal.

However did I get all the way through that without mentioning
Borderlands and Max?


Stuart Miller








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                 Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 10:54:30 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 10:34:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:28:09 EST
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: Ray Dickenson <editor@perceptions.couk.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 01:48:19 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:10:58 -0500
>>>Subject: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>Has anyone noticed resemblance of Maussan's confidence to what
>>John Keel described as a powerful but ultimately destructive
>>predictive force allowing contactees (in particular) to make
>>successful predictions, but leading up to a grand debacle?
>
>>Keel called it "the tiger behind the door" and hinted it had
>>caused cult deaths. Think he said that in "UFOs: Operation
>>Trojan Horse" 1971

>The one thing that has always bothered me about UFO abductee
>stories was the 'message' syndrome.

>Somehow the 'Space Brothers' would have some message about one
>thing or another. Without solid validation this can become
>dangerous as we've seen with 'Heaven's Gate' alone.

>These 'messages' pollute and confuse the raw data stream and
>open the door to those of ill will who would use the public's
>thirst for data and lead them to an unpleasant end.

>We've got to draw the line here and I'm glad you brought this up
>Ray. It's of great importance. Gullibility is abounding in the
>public and the unwillingness of the government to address the
>issue of UFOs only creates a virulent medium for the charlatans
>to take root.

>Raw, solid data only I say. It's up to you big time researchers
>who actually do the science to speak out about this and put your
>foot down. Accepting communications, evaluations from 'nebulous'
>sources is far too detrimental.

>Let's keep the 'message' out of the equation until we actually can
>produce the 'messenger'.


Still ... they _are_ up there and it's not a stretch that there
would be... some kind... of interaction or intercourse on any
number of different kinds of levels - known and unknown.
Moreover, and very respectfully, I don't think you have a proper
idea regarding the magnitude of the affair... the number of
solid individuals involved who only stand to lose in the
investigation of it, and don't have a clue as to any messages
associated with it - right, wrong, or indifferent.

Something real _is_ happening while we deal with the contrived
hurdles thrown down in front of us by reactionary CSICOPians and
their neo-pychosocial imps (to weaken our resolve to come to
some kind of larger resolution with regard to a greater reality,
not agreeable to them).

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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               "Professional Skeptics Group Proves UFOs Real!"

From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@presidency.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 15:07:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:07:16 -0500
Subject: "Professional Skeptics Group Proves UFOs Real!"

-----


From: Michael Horn <michael@andyettheyfly.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 11:53:10 -0800
To: undisclosed-recipients:;
Subject:


"REPORTS THAT say something hasn=92t happened are interesting to
me, because as we know, there are known unknowns; there are
things we know we know.We also know there are known unknowns;
that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But
there are also unknown unknowns =97 the ones we don=92t know we
don=92t know."

--


Professional Skeptics Group Proves UFOs Real!

Organization expected to retract defamatory claims,
facilitate $1,000,000 award to Swiss man

by
Michael Horn

LOS ANGELES - It was only a matter of time before a breakthrough
in authenticating the existence of non-terrestrial UFOs would
take place but, surely, nobody thought it would come about this
way. Despite mounting evidence over the past half-century the
arbiters and manipulators of public opinion in media,
governmental and scientific circles, along with professional
skeptics and debunkers, have marginalized serious discussion of
UFOs and dismissed all evidence as inconclusive and flawed.

Defamatory Claims?

A special target, at the top of the hit list for skeptics and
debunkers for more than 25 years, are the claimed contacts of a
Swiss man, Billy Meier. Meier, who claimed that his contacts
with extraterrestrial human began in 1942, when he was five
years old, also says that they continue to this day, more than
60 years later. But the skeptics, in labeling Meier and his
evidence as fraudulent, claim that he hoaxed his 35mm photos and
8mm film segments of the UFOs during the mid-1970s using models
or some unidentified form of special effects wizardry to
accomplish the alleged deception. Professional skeptics, such as
the international organization CFI, magician/skeptic The
"Amazing" Randi and science writer/skeptic Michael Shermer, have
long been in the forefront of those accusing Meier of hoaxing
his physical evidence, which also includes video and sound
recordings, as well as metal alloy samples.

Meier=92s supporters state that these claims run counter to the
results of scientific examination of Meier=92s evidence by experts
from JPL, IBM, USGS and Nippon TV, as well as special effects
expert Wally Gentleman, known for his work on Stanley Kubrick=92s
"2001", among many films. They also claim that all of Meier=92s
physical evidence remains irreproducible even with today=92s
technology.

The Challenge

In order to definitively resolve the matter, in early February
2001, a number of Meier=92s more than 1200 photos and eight film
segments were presented for examination to case investigator
Vaughn Rees of CFI West, the Los Angeles branch of CFI. Mr. Rees
concluded that, in his expert opinion, they were all "easily
duplicated hoaxes" and that the two lights seen flashing
alternately from two different parts of the UFO in the film
(Hasenbol, March 18, 1976 at:
www.figu.org/us/ufology/videos.htm) were accomplished simply by
Meier=92s scratching the film with a pin.

Mr. Rees agreed to back up his claims by duplicating one of
Meier=92s UFO photos along with the film segment, which should be
the easiest to duplicate because it was the only one of Meier=92s
that had no other objects in it to compare to the UFO. Mr. Rees
stated that he already had a 35mm photo camera and knew where to
acquire an 8mm movie camera. His work wasn=92t required to be
exact to the last detail, just convincingly comparable in
quality to Meier=92s.

Over the next two months Mr. Rees failed to submit anything to
back up his claims and, in May of 2001, it was suggested that he
could try using any high-tech equipment available to him, i.e.
computers, special effects, Photo Shop, etc., to fulfill his
commitment. It was also suggested that, if he wished to be
sporting about it, he should use only one hand since Meier is a
one-armed man.

The Results

Two years later, at a UFO conference in February of 2003, Mr.
Rees was confronted about his failure to meet the challenge. He
responded that he still didn=92t have access to a photo-processing
lab, which Meier himself never had access to, having sent all of
his films off to a local shop for developing. Mr. Rees was
reminded that he could, and perhaps had already tried to, use
any high-tech means at his disposal instead. In a comparable
two-year period Mr. Meier had, with one hand, produced hundreds
of photos, while the able-bodied, technology-savvy Mr. Rees had
produced none.

Now, about three-years have passed and Mr. Rees has still failed
to provide even one photo or film to back up his claims. In a
three-year period of time Meier had taken nearly 1,000
photographs and, in about one year=92s time, he took at least one-
half dozen of his 8mm films, and he did all of this using only
one hand! A comparable number and quality of such types of films
for an individual special effects person during the mid-1970s
(and maybe any other time period) would be quite respectable,
though an Internet search will reveal that no such cinematic
accomplishments, professional or otherwise, exist.

This may be the first, and most important, time in history that
skeptics have set out to disprove a presumed hoax and ended up
proving its authenticity. And, in this case, what they proved is
undoubtedly the factuality of the most important event in human
history, the existence of, and contact with, extraterrestrials.

What Integrity Demands

The professional skeptics of the Meier case have concocted all
sorts of fanciful notions and theories as to how he hoaxed the
evidence. But when challenged to prove their claims they
repeatedly replied that it was not their job to attempt to
duplicate the evidence, although conducting themselves according
to the scientific method would require it. Their time for
freely, and irresponsibly, attacking Meier ran out when Mr. Rees
and CFI West utterly and completely failed to meet the challenge
they had finally accepted. In so doing, they effectively proved
Meier=92s UFOs real and their own claims unsubstantiated and
defamatory.

Unequivocal public retractions and apologies are now due Meier
from CFI West, Vaughn Rees, Randi, Michael Shermer, etc. They
have indulged in character assassination, slander and libel, and
the sloppiest, least scientific thinking imaginable. It is now
absolutely incumbent upon any and all of the skeptics who have
offered money for proof of "paranormal" phenomenon, to offer it
to Meier and his non-profit organization in Switzerland, FIGU.
Specifically, the offer by Randi of $1,000,000 for proof of a
paranormal ability has been more than satisfied and must be
paid.

Integrity demands that they now live up to their word. There can
be absolutely no argument, dispute or doubt now, especially
considering the abysmal, failed attempts by the skeptical
accusers themselves, with any tools at their disposal, to
debunk, let alone duplicate, Meier=92s stunning proof. Now it=92s
time to recognize that the most important event in human history
has occurred and to discover what meaning it holds for us.

Addendum

While the skeptics have offered an unexpected contribution to
authenticating what have come to be known as the Meier Contacts,
it=92s really only the tip of a very deep and solid iceberg of
irrefutable proof far beyond a reasonable doubt.

Noted Astronomer Corroborates Additional Evidence

In April of 2003, Dr. Joseph Veverka, Chairman of the Astronomy
Department at Cornell University, was presented with
documentation of specific information on Jupiter, its rings and
its moons, published by Meier in October, 1978, five months
before the Voyager probe photographed and relayed the
information back to Earth. When shown the evidence that Meier
described the moon Io as being the most volcanically active body
in the solar system, prior to the first official knowledge of it
in March of 1979, Dr. Veverka was direct and candid, "If he said
that 3-5 months before, then all that I can say is that he=92s
right."

Meier also documented the fact that Jupiter had rings; described
the chemical composition of the planet=92s surface, the coloration
of it=92s moons, Io=92s smooth surface and Europa being encrusted in
ice. But far more amazingly, Meier accurately described both the
composition and the source of Jupiter=92s rings 20 years before
scientists from Cornell announced their findings, in 1998!

Prophetically Accurate Information

In February of 1995, Meier published a lengthy document of
enormous complexity in which he foretold the likelihood of
certain specific future events. In September 2001, portions of
that information were included in the book "And Yet They Fly!"
written by Guido Moosbrugger, an Austrian former schoolteacher
and principle acquainted with Meier for about 25 years.

The following seven items, foretold on pages 347 and 348 of "And
Yet They Fly!" have recently occurred and virtually in the
sequence Meier foretold:

1. The strike or attack by the US and its president (Iraq).
Meier even used the word "stun" when he said the strike would
"...stun the entire world..." "Stun" is a synonym for the term
"shock" used by the US as in "shock and awe".

2. Meier correctly predicted the following upsurge in unrest
and violence from Islamic fundamentalists.

3. Meier foretold the spread of AIDS, which has indeed become
very widespread.

4. Mad Cow Disease has since spread to other animals and humans
as Meier also predicted.

5. Meier said that a new disease and epidemic would then appear
and SARS did just that.

6. His warning regarding a renewed threat of chemical warfare is
more in the news than ever.

7. Meier specifically warned of the possibility of an accident,
one that he said could be avoided, however, at the nuclear power
plant near Lyon, France. The emergency scenario, and the timely
shut down of that exact plant, occurred on August 12, 2003.

Now, in case the astronomically high odds against any kind of
coincidences or lucky guesses aren=92t apparent, consider that
Meier identified the following eight years in advance:

1. The exact country and leader (out of hundreds) that would
launch a stunning attack and a synonym for the term actually
used by that country=92s leader (impossible to calculate).

2. The exact religious group (out of thousands) that would
respond with their own attacks.

3. The exact disease (out of thousands) that would spread widely
among humans.

4. The exact animal disease (out of thousands) that would spread
to other animals and humans.

5. The sudden appearance of a new disease and epidemic.

6. The exact kind of weapons and warfare that would cause
renewed threats.

7. The exact location (out of 436) and type of facility (out of
several) that would have a near-accident.

If this doesn't qualify as a genuine demonstration of psychic or
paranormal abilities nothing does.

And it far exceeds any reasonable requirements to garner the
financial award promised for such a demonstration, though that
never has been the purpose of Meier=92s mission. It is only
fitting, however, that those who have long accused him of being
a hoaxer out for non-existent, and unproven, financial gain,
should now have the opportunity to reward him, not only for his
abilities, but also for suffering the fools and their defamation
for so long.

For those who may be unaware, in addition to character
assassination, Meier has survived 19 (documented) actual
assassination attempts.

The Sound Recordings

Finally, the skeptics (and others who=92ve actually tried) have
also been unable to reproduce the sound recordings Meier made of
a UFO, using only a cassette tape recorder, in an open field in
front of 15 witnesses. There are 32 simultaneous frequencies
occurring, 24 in the audible and eight in the inaudible range.
To date, they remain irreproducible even with state-of-the-art
synthesizers, let alone with cassette machines outdoors.

You can hear, and download, a three-minute sample of the sounds
at: and experiment with them yourself. You will also find more
documentation on the Meier Contacts at this website.

The Most Important Event In Human History

Now that the authenticity of the Meier Contacts have been firmly
established, we can begin to examine the information, and the
real purpose, behind the most important event in human history.

Hint: It has to do with our future survival.

Michael Horn is the American Media Representative for The Meier
Contacts and has researched the case for 25 years. He can be
contacted at: michael@andyettheyfly.com








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   Dec > Dec 7

                       Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Redfern

From: Nick Redfern <Skywatcher4u@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 15:34:42 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 12:16:33 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Redfern


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:39:57 -0000
>Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Miller

>>From: Nick Redfern <Skywatcher4u@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:15:27 EST
>>Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets'

Stuart,

How were you supposed to know Andy's role in the writing of the
book? How about initially asking me or Andy privately (my email
address is on the back of the book) rather than asking in a
public forum?

The US Government was very concerned about biowarfare operations
on cattle as far back as 1947. In that same chapter in Strange
Secrets (specifically the final paragraph of page 303 up to half
way down page 307), I cite 1947/1948 US Research and Development
Board files (which I found at the National Archives) showing
that, as far back as the late 40s, there was major concern shown
that a hostile nation might attempt to cripple the US cattle
herd by deliberately infecting it with viruses and diseases.

Bizarrely, one of those who was deeply involved in this issue
this while working as a Special Agent with the FBI was Guy
Banister - later fingered by many as a key player in the JFK
assassination.

Since the book was published, I've found other documentation at
the Archives  - from 1949 - with a recommendation from the R&D
Board that to counter this biowar-cattle threat, there should be
stealthy checks of the US cattle herd. If cattle mutes aren't
evidence of these "stealthy checks" I would be very surprised.

The info that is going to come out next year re the issue of
mutes and aliens, all ties in with the Bennewitz caper and will
"out" certain Govt./military and Intel people who ingeniously
perpetrated the alien theory as a convenient smokescreen for
down to earth activities - including mutes. There will be a
truly massive amount of new data on the Bennewitz situation in
04 and 05. Heads might even role within official circles and
certain people now retired will be put in difficult situations.
That will be worth seeing.

Re your opinion re the book: that's fine. I never look for
approval of anything I do (in writing, life or whatever) because
that's not important to me. I just put out my views as I see
them and based upon the available evidence. Many of my views on
UFOs have changed radically in the last few years and that
includes the mute controversy. As far as BSE and CJD are
concerned, I consider the present day mutes to be a continuation
of the 70s ones (the earlier probably had more to do with
biowar, however; and the latter day ones with virulent diseases,
but the concept and the players are probably the same).

The most depressing and pathetic comment I heard (or rather
overheard) on this same subject was a certain (UK) researcher
saying they hoped my theory wasn't correct because it would be
"bad for business on the lecture circuit" for them. Too bad.
Time is numbered on the UFO-mute issue.


Nick








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                Re: There's A Hole In My Philosophy - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 13:10:27 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 12:22:00 -0500
Subject: Re: There's A Hole In My Philosophy - Warren


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 21:25:12 -0800
>Subject: There's A Hole In My Philosophy

>Hello Fellow Listers,

>Below is a letter I sent to author Dr. David Grinspoon in
>repsonse to his article: "There's a Whole In My Philosphy,"
>which was posted at the Astrobilogy web-site:

>http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=
707&mode=threadℴ=0&thold=0

>(Yes, I know the "UFO believers" term gets me every time).

>Dear Mr. Grinspoon,

>After reading your article, "There's a Hole in My Philosophy,"
>at the Astrobiology Web-site, I felt "obligated" to write you
>and make some observations. (If I understood the precedent, our
>article is a combination of an excerpt from your book as well s
>previous interviews given by you; so the following is in
>reference to, and focused on said article, as I have not read
>your book, but will endeavor to do so).

>First, I say kudos to you for crossing the line of mainstream
>science, and mainstream media to even utter the term, "UFO".
>It's not often one sees an individual with your academic
>credentials, position as a scientist etc., not to mention your
>affiliation with NASA, that would even venture into that arena.

>I'm afraid that's where the accolades end. Perhaps I'm a little
>thick," but I had to read the article a few times to understand
>your position; quite frankly I'm going to have to read your
>book, because I still don't know. (It was reminiscent of asking
>a politician if elected, will he raise taxes--by the time he's
>finished talking you forget what the question was).

<snip>

>I would like to reiterate that I have not read your book, and
>perhaps this one snippet (your article) takes you out of
>context, and if that's the case I apologize for any
>misperceptions on my part; however, based on what I've read in
>that particular piece it would seem that that although you are
>in fact a scientist, you are inconsistent as to what subjects
>you apply scientific methodology to. Some of your preconceived
>notions about UFOs are not only erroneous, but seem to indicate
>that theorems have been deduced without applying Science at ll.


Hello Fellow Listers,

In fairness to Mr. Grinspoon, here is his prompt reply to my
letter to him:


"Frank,

OK. I accept your apology for taking me out of context. When you
read Lonely Planets it will become clear that the thrust of your
objection is a misunderstanding of what I mean by the phrase
"UFO believers". Of course UFOs are real. I am using shorthand
for a cultural mindset, which might bother you less when you
read the many chapters of surrounding context.

Rather than repeat myself in an attempt to clarify, let me just
say that I will very much look forward to hearing from you after
you have had a chance to read the book. Your points are well
taken, and I elaborate on much of this in a way that cannot come
across in a short excerpt.

With best regards,

David Grinspoon"










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              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Burns

From: Chris Burns <Thurstonoreggae@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 17:10:07 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 12:24:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Burns



Hey folks,

In a previous post by:

>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:51:40 -0400
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

This was brought up:

>4) Maussan, also, showed a video of a circular spacecraft flying
>around the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center in New York
>shortly after, the September 11 terrorist strike occurred, and
>suggest that another big attack could happened in US on December
>12.

This is probably old news, but...

http://www.rense.com/general41/scihoax.htm

As I am in post production as a profession, the film blatantly looked
computer-generated.  But many people still think its the real thing.


Chris Burns








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                     Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 22:16:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 12:25:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Jones


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:48:19 -0000
>Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions

Stuart, Listers

>Sean

>On the contrary sir, you do have enough evidence.

Any physical evidence, verified by accredited & un-biased
scientists?

>Criminals are often convicted just on the basis of witness
>testimony alone.

Really? Not in this country that I am aware of. Perhaps you
could cite me a case or two? Witness testimony as far as I am
aware, (and I am really ready to be proved wrong for the sake of
ufology) has never been enough on it's own to make a conviction
without supporting evidence. For I am _damn_ certain if it was
then Ufology would be _far_ more credible in the eyes of Joe Q
Public.

>It is a very old cliche within Ufology

Cliches are frequently mis-applied and mis-quoted.


Regards

Sean










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             Re: PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - 12-07-03 - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 19:40:50 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 12:35:58 -0500
Subject: Re: PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - 12-07-03 - McCoy


>From: Stephen Bassett <Disclosure2003@aol.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 05:34:59 -0500
>Subject: PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - 12-07-03

Hello, all,

John Velez speaks truth in his reply, I am merely P.O.'ed. the
following is a reply to most of what was snipped, like a
deadheaded rose that long ago faded into a mere corpse of
itself.

<snip>

Art Bell, John Lear, Lazar, oh Lord, take me! Ah'm ready! get me
off this miserable Rock! Ok, histronics aside, I hoped to never
type those names again. But in a Sulfurous cloud there they are,
in one post yet! As a former Pilot, I can't say enough that
Lear's credentials arise from his Pappy's fame. As for the CIA
thingy, I can state that I worked for the CIA. but they can't
prove it. The old can't "Confirm or Deny" bit. Oh, my shoe is
ringing. Ok, wrong number, I digress. None of what was said to
Bell can be proven, I mean if all this is going on at once,
somebody besides oh, Lear and Lazar have an idea.

There would be leaks, period, provable leaks if this was a
systemic problem on the level thye describe.

>PRG
>Paradigm Research Group

>There you have it. When you break it down, it doesn't seem so
>frightening, does it? Other scenarios are out there. Break them
>down as well. The answer will be the same.

What is frightening, is the spectere of Bell, Lazar, Lear and
Greer, rising out of the graveyard of UFOlogy, where once they
lied, er lie, no, lay.

>No disrespect is aimed at John Lear. All of these responses are
>debatable. But at the core of the most profound transition in
>history is a question being asked of every living human, whether
>they are as yet aware or not: do you want to build your life and
>your nation with truths or lies?

What is funny here I agree with the Idea of Disclosure, but I do
not agree with the Klowns that are trying to make a case for it.
Who are _they_ working for?

>History has been quite consistent on the outcomes. Those who
>choose lies are diminished or even destroyed. Those who choose
>truths persevere or even flourish.

The Roman empire held truth? the Mongols?The Soviet empire? The
USA ? The Byzsantines? Aztecs?"Springtime for Hitler?"

While I believe there is Truth, reflect on this:"The truth is
not in us, and we deceieve ourselves." Human nature is such that
we construct reality. Trapped in your own Idaho, so to speak.

GT McCoy









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   Dec > Dec 7

                       Maussan Makes Prediction - Not!

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 00:00:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 12:39:52 -0500
Subject: Maussan Makes Prediction - Not!


>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:51:40 -0400
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:40:18 EST
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:10:58 -0500
>>>Subject: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>INEXPLICATA
>>>The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
>>>December 4, 2003

>>>SOURCE: Diario de Yucatan (M=8Exico)
>>>DATE: 12/4/03

>>>"Our Lives Will Change on the 12th", claims Jaime Maussan

>>>Ufologist Jaime Maussan, who has spent recent years lecturing on
>>>the subject at different venues throughout the country, remarked
>>>two nights ago at the Teatro Merida that "Something special will
>>>happen on December 12th or a meteorite will strike us, bringing
>>>about the end of the world."

><snip>

Hello Greg, Dr. Sanchez-Ocejo, Scott, All,

Greg asked:

>>Did anyone confirm if Maussan actually stated this?

Yes, I did. I have been awaiting Jaime's response before posting
to the List about this 'prediction' business. Jaime wrote the
following in response to my inquiry:

-----

Hola Jaime,

There is a thread that has been running on UFO UpDates about
you. Could you please tell me if there is any truth to the
following:

>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:10:58 -0500
>Subject: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>INEXPLICATA
>The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
>December 4, 2003

>SOURCE: Diario de Yucatan (M=3DE9xico)
>DATE: 12/4/03

>"Our Lives Will Change on the 12th", claims Jaime Maussan

>Ufologist Jaime Maussan, who has spent recent years lecturing on
>the subject at different venues throughout the country, remarked
>two nights ago at the Teatro Merida that "Something special will
>happen on December 12th or a meteorite will strike us, bringing
>about the end of the world."

<snip>

Please let me know. I'd like to be able to respond to this on
the List. First, I need to know if it's true. If true... then
there isn't much I can say.

Regards,

John Velez

-----

Jaime responded:

John:

Of course is not truth, what I did was to present =A8The Romanek
Case=A8 what I did was to present the statements from Deborah
Lindeman, Jack (John) C. Kasher, Dana Tibault and Stan Romanek,
I presented the video of what _they_ say.

The newspaper is going to run an article tomorrow making clear
that I didn't say that, even some comments from the people who
was in the conference.

I just hear about this, I came back today from a long trip. I
don't think this is fair, I am very careful with everything I
say. Do you think that I would say something like that?

It seems that I provoke so much jealousy, that everybody is just
waiting to attack me. I have been a journalist for 33 years. I
have credibility in M=E9xico, you can investigate that.

Credibility is not for sale, - you earn it after a long time of
clean work.

I will send you the article that the Diario of Yucatan is going
to publish tomorrow.

Thank you.

You are a real friend.

Jaime Maussan

-----

Well List wags, there you have it! According to Jaime, he was
quoting from statements made in the Stan Romanek case. (As per
Lindemann and Kasher.) I have no reason to doubt his veracity.
Neither does anybody else!

As far as I'm concerned, this whole 'Jaime Maussan is making
doomsday predictions' business is nothing more than comments he
made in reference to the Romanek case. A case of
misinterpretation.

Dr. Sanchez-Ocejo wrote:

>Yes, Maussan was here in Miami this Wed Dec. 3 in a live TV
>program from 8 to 9 PM. at channel 41 named " A Mano Limpia" (To
>Clean Hands) directed by Oscar Haza, and I heard a saw him
>saying those predictions.

Apparently you missed the fact that he was talking about
comments/predictions that came out of the Romanek case. I hope
that after you review of the program/interview in question, that
you will see how you may have mistakenly attributed the quote to
Maussan himself.

>Plus, in to occasions he assert that
>he is not an ufologist or an investigator, that he is only a
>journalist.

He is a journalist! And one with a long and excellent track
record. More than that, Jaime is an investigative journalist. Is
there a problem about this? You make the statement sound more
like an 'accusation' than a simple statement of fact by Jaime.

>Also:

I see you felt the need to take this 'bandwagon' character
attack on Jaime one step further by adding the following
comments. Comments that I would like to 'comment on' if I may.

>1) He suggests that all Crop Circles are ET made.

He's not alone in his 'belief' and... I'm certain he never said
"all" crop circles. Adding the word "all" makes it sound as if
Jaime is totally gullable and prone to speaking in absolutes. I
happen to know the man and I have not heard him use such
'absolute' terms in any conversations we have had.

>2) A girl who took a photo of an entity at night in a street of
>Mexico became sick and suggested this may happened to the
>hundreds of women killed in Juarez.

You mean "he speculated" about it. There is a difference in
meaning from that and what you say. I understand there are some
language barriers, but we need to be more careful about how
statements are worded. Sometimes a single word in a sentence or
paragraph can alter the meaning completely.

>3) He affirmed that Monsignor Corrado Balducci, the Pope's
>spokesman, said that any Catholics who do not believed in ETs
>will be ex-comunicated. (In Chile, on Nov 16, Daniel Munoz,
>Maussan's righthand-man, affirm that the Vatican is ready to say
>that UFO pilots are angels)

I have read Father Balducci's comments. Like the 'prediction' in
question in this thread, I think that Jaime is being labelled as
the 'source' of statements made by others. You really need to
ask Jaime if these attributions of quotations are correct before
you put them out in public in a way that 'slams' Maussan.

>4) Maussan, also, showed a video of a circular spacecraft flying
>around the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center in New York
>shortly after, the September 11 terrorist strike occurred, and
>suggest that another big attack could happened in US on December
>12.

Isn't this the quote we've been discussing? The mistaken
attribution one?

>Oscar Haza announced yesterday that he invited Maussan for
>another interview on his program next week. This time I will
>tape the program.

Don't walk away to make a sandwich in the middle of the
interview. You might misinterpret something or wrongly attribute
a quote.

Regards,

John Velez








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                  Diario de Yucatan Retracts Maussan Story

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:57:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 12:45:17 -0500
Subject: Diario de Yucatan Retracts Maussan Story



On Saturday, 12/6/03,  a message was  received from Mexican
researcher Santiago Yturria advising that the Diario de Yucatan
had published a retraction in regards to the Jaime Maussan
catastrophist article.

You can read the correction below. Many thanks to Santiago
Yturria and to Pablo Cicero, the newspaper's editor.

Scott Corrales--IHU
www.inexplicata.us

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

MAUSSAN AGAINST CATASTROPHISM

Journalist clarifies an article published by el Diario on
Thursday

"I never said that a meteorite was going to collide with the
Earth on Friday the 12th during the conferences held in M=E9rida
last week," stressed the journalist in an interview. "I was only
making known the research conducted by U.S. institutions
suggesting that something extraordinary might occurr on said
date."

The UFO researcher is making these corrections as a result of
the article which appeared on Thursday, 12/4, in which we
emphasized the predictions made by the researcher.

"I am a person who is against catastrophism," he stated. "Thirty
three years of journalistic attest to my journalistic
integrity."

During his chat with El Diario, Mauss=E1n explained that in the
course of the conferences held in M=E9rida he made known the
results of research conducted in the United States, particularly
one in which the subject of study was Stan Romannek, a person
who had had dealings with extraterrestrials. "Romannek had
highly advanced mathematical knowledge. By means of hypnotic
regression, scientists found out that this person was aware of
highly complex equations regarding quantum physics."

The journalist explained that aside from the algorithms and
equations found in the man's unconscious, scientists also found
some startling information. "On a date in the near future,
possibly the 12th, several planets were going to enter into an
alignment on the solar eclipctic, which could herald an
extraordinary event."

"I find it obscene that it was said that I foretold the end of
the world," he said. "I only disclosed certain information which
I found startling. It would be absurd to say that a meteorite is
going to collide with our planet when there are none nearby."

The journalist stressed that he doesn't like making apocalyptic
pronouncements. "Things mustn't be taken out of context. I pray
to God that nothing happens."

The UFO researcher further stresses that he presented the
results of reseach conducted by doctors  Deborah Lindemann, Dana
Thibault and  John "Jack" Kasher.

"The remarks concerning the events on December 12th are the
result of  a broad and serious investigative effort undertaken
in Nebraska and Colorado..."

The Stan Romannek case has been certified as authentic by the
MUFON organization.

During his presentations in M=E9rida, Mauss=E1n offered the audience
projections of various images related to the UFO phenomenon,
including object of alleged ET provenance. Among his evidence he
presented video footage of spacecraft and sightings that occured
in 2000 and 2001. Some of the most dramatic images were the ones
showing, as he said, a spaceship flying in the vicinity
of the Twin Towers.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Translation (C) 2003. Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)






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                    Presidential UFO's Top Story Of 2003

From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@presidency.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 00:48:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 16:25:06 -0500
Subject: Presidential UFO's Top Story Of 2003



Top Story of 2003

=46rom my very large website I am posting the most read story of
the year. Even a year after I posted it it is usually the #1 or
#2 story being read every day. Those who believe disclosure is
close should read what people are really interested in.

http://presidentialufo.com/newpage2.htm

Grant


"REPORTS THAT say something hasn=92t happened are interesting to
me, because as we know, there are known unknowns; there are
things we know we know.We also know there are known unknowns;
that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But
there are also unknown unknowns =97 the ones we don=92t know we
don=92t know." Donald Rumsfeld








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                       Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 10:45:43 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 16:30:46 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Roberts


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 06:42:29 -0600
>Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets'

Alfred wrote, among other things.

>It must be that you inhabit some other dimensional continuum or
>adjacent universe, Mr. Roberts, sincerely! This statement is one
>hundred and eighty degrees from true as your activities have
>been chronicled by yourself among others and your behavior
>witnessed by -this- writer! Verily!

Aye, verily indeed. I'm afraid that not only is your use of the
English language redundant Alfred, but your arguments, such as
they are, appear to be similarly dead in the water. I realise
you, Max and co take turns in having a pop at me and I'm happy
to provide you that service. But, please, come up with something
a bit more challenging.

>How perfectly personable! How reasonably extended! How
>constructively applied! But in retrospect, given the
>uncharacteristic and too convenient appearance of it now... not
>a little patronizing.

Yes, it was patronizing. Obviously. There's nothing more sad
that seeing people who have added _nothing_ to the subject of
ufology spouting about people who get out and do the _real_
work.

Twas ever thus. As Alfred might say.

Happy Trails

Andy








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                 Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 -

From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 1956 03:09:16 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 16:38:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 -


>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:51:40 -0400
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:40:18 EST
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:10:58 -0500
>>>Subject: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

<snip>

>>Did anyone confirm if Maussan actually stated this?

><snip>

>3) He affirmed that Monsignor Corrado Balducci, the Pope's
>spokesman, said that any Catholics who do not believed in ETs
>will be ex-comunicated. (In Chile, on Nov 16, Daniel Munoz,
>Maussan's righthand-man, affirm that the Vatican is ready to say
>that UFO pilots are angels)

Dr. Sanchez-Ocejo

Have you confirmed whether the statement that Jaime Maussan
accredited to Father Balducci is true or not? It sounds rather
preposterous to think that the Vatican's stargazing eye in the
sky believes the church should excommunicate those members who
do not believe in ETs. If true is this just his starry eyed
personal opinion or an official eedict from the Vatican? Can you
get either in writing?

I somewhat remember his earlier statement in support of UFOs and
aliens and have that in writing in some file. I wonder if the
Catholic observatory on top of Mt. Graham in Arizona has had any
UFO sightings?

How would the rulers in the Pentagon know whether the massive
flock believe in ETs or not? Do they plan a new worldwide
inquisition? It would take them years to cover the millions of
Catholics in South America itself. Perhaps the Cardinals could
issue a huge number of papal polygraph machines to the
Archbishops who would get the Bishops to distribute them to
every Padre in every diocese. Are those who do not believe in
ETs destined to be doomed in the pizza oven hot dregs of Hell?

Fortunately I am exempt from having to go through that test as I
am a non-observant secular Jew. We received the punishing edicts
and inquisitions from thr Vatican in the past. I don't want to
offend Catholic sensibilities but I find absolutist religions to
be primitive and temporay stumbling blocks in our evolution.

What is the latest on the bozo from Brazil whose name I forget?
I'm talking about the crooked UFO cultist who was twisting
peoples' naivete while stealing their money and possessions,
giving them nonexistent land. and selling them fake alien junk?.
Is he in prison yet? I hope so. A.J. Gaevard, if you are reading
this perhaps you can fill us in.

It is also rather ironic that years ago when things were really
hot in Puerto Rico and Jaime Maussan was hot on the trail, I
almost went down there at his suggestion. Linda Moulton Howe and
a few others were going down there and I was going to go down on
their flight. Due to my music business I never made it but when
she came back she told me she felt he was a charlatan. Recently
she let herself get suckered by the bozo of Brazil's sponsorship
of her trip.

I had faith in her back when she was first reporting on cattle
mutes.

Or should that be cattle moots? As in Moot Evidence? <g>In
the1980s I started to doubt her credibility because she
unquestionably believd everything that MSgt. Richard Doty of the
AFOSI was telling and showing to her. Her naivete in Brazil was
appalling.

Wasn't Father Balducci on the early series of Saturday Night
Live here in the US?


Josh








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                      Re: Soliciting Articles - Mackay

From: Glennys Mackay <glenmack@pacific.net.au>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:31:16 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 16:35:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Soliciting Articles - Mackay


>From: Roy Hale - The Lost Haven <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 00:54:30 -0000
>Subject: Soliciting Articles

>Dear Colleagues,

>The new year is approaching fast, and I am looking for new UFO
>articles for my UFO 'Ezine - Down To Earth.

>If you have a serious article for publishing, then please
>contact me on the below address.

>ufos@thelosthaven.co.uk


Greetings Roy,

Having just read your article and have had personal encounters
over the past 40 years both in Australia and New Zealand.

A lot of these experiences were witnessed by other people at the
time.....

When Frederick Valentich disappeared over Bass Strait (Tasmania)
I was living in New Zealand and had a UFO land in our paddock
behind our house and witnessed one the size of a small car
slowly gliding about one metre off the road at5.30am cruising
along the street, as though they were looking for someone.
(Probably me or had just bought me back from an abduction!!)

1st January 1979, at the time a journalist was stopping two
doors along from me and happened to be the one that took the
photos out of the plane when it was zapped by a UFO between
Christchurch and Wellington 1978... also ongoing encounters up
to the present by the very tall fair skinned people from off
world who are living amongst us.

I had five helicoptor pilots staying with me and we used to
watch from our balcony at night up to 17 of these scout ships
going into a mother ship.

I was also cured of cancer of the lungs and throat by them as
well.

Cheers for now,

Glennys
Brisbane Australia








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              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 11:22:40 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 09:15:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Boone


>From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
>Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 11:51:06 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:28:09 EST
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>These 'messages' pollute and confuse the raw data stream and
>>open the door to those of ill will who would use the public's
>>thirst for data and lead them to an unpleasant end.

>I would suggest that this kind of thing has been associated with
>from the very beginning, and it's probably not going away
>anytime soon. As for being able to control what the public is
>exposed to, good luck. Particularly when it involves information
>coming out of Mexico and South America, where you're in the
>unfortunate position of having an "open minded" public (a result
>of cultural differences) that will apparently accept pretty much
>anything. BVM riding a chupacabra out of a UFO? Sure! Why not!

>These apocalyptic messages are part of the data stream, like it
>or not. Don't blame the data. Blame the UFO community's
>continuing inability to create a solid organization that has the
>marketing sophistication to establish itself as a reliable
>source for timely, well-researched information. When someone
>reads a UFO report, they should think, "I'll go to the
>(whatever) site and see what they say about it, because I know
>they won't blow marsh gas up my butt." And if the news media
>needs to make a call to a UFO expert for an interview, they can
>call that organization because they know they'll get
>intelligent, articulate spokespeople instead of cranks, pro or
>con. You can't control the data, but you can control the image
>of your organization. And over time, you can create a strong
>signal source that might be heard above the noise.


I, for one, would love to see an UFOlogy board of ethics,
standards, and reviews.  Including only credentialed experts
within and without the UFO community. It would help the
processing of data to make it more palatable to experts, press,
and public.

The news media doesn't hat it's staff on Ufology. It's not a
major issue unless it involves political, financial, or sex
scandal. If tomorrow some gorgeous supermodel delved into the
field of UFOlogy there would be more reporters showing up than
at a bar during happy hour.

The press would like to know more about UFOs but to gather
information is tedious to say the least. There's no one-stop-
shopping center for UFOlogy and the subject is still under the
fog of less than optimum social acceptance.

Sure 'messages' from beyond are part of the data stream but
they're only as valuable as they are accurate. Considering the
horror of the 'Heaven's Gate' tragedy you can see why.

I will never forget that day because I was live on the air (or
web) at the AOL Parascope site when one of the guests told us
that the police had just showed up at the house next door where
those 'UFO' nuts lived. He left his keyboard went outside to ask
what was going on and the discovery was made and he reported it
to us live right there! In addition, one of the Heaven's Gaters
was also online in the same chat forum and I had chatted with
him for months yet the subject of Heaven's Gate didn't come up
but the Hale-Bopp 'accompanying UFO thingie' did and I told him
not to buy into it.

He escaped.

I remember Applewhite and his group as they would show up at
comic book/sci-fi conventions. They seemed harmless and were
generally polite so no alarms went off.

Far as I'm concerned it's up to those scientists and researchers
who value the standards and ethics of their fields to step away
from these areas and perhaps then we'll get the raw data to draw
our own conclusions instead of having them dished out by
sensationalists.


Best,

Greg








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                 Re: Maussan Makes Prediction - Not! - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:52:38 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 09:21:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction - Not! - Boone


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 00:00:29 -0500
>Subject: Maussan Makes Prediction - Not!

>>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:51:40 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:40:18 EST
>>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:10:58 -0500
>>>>Subject: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>>INEXPLICATA
>>>>The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
>>>>December 4, 2003

>>>>SOURCE: Diario de Yucatan (M=C5=BDxico)
>>>>DATE: 12/4/03

>>>>"Our Lives Will Change on the 12th", claims Jaime Maussan

>>>>Ufologist Jaime Maussan, who has spent recent years lecturing on
>>>>the subject at different venues throughout the country, remarked
>>>>two nights ago at the Teatro Merida that "Something special will
>>>>happen on December 12th or a meteorite will strike us, bringing
>>>>about the end of the world."

>><snip>

>Hello Greg, Dr. Sanchez-Ocejo, Scott, All,

>Greg asked:

>>>Did anyone confirm if Maussan actually stated this?

>Yes, I did. I have been awaiting Jaime's response before posting
>to the List about this 'prediction' business. Jaime wrote the
>following in response to my inquiry:

>-----

>Hola Jaime,

>There is a thread that has been running on UFO UpDates about
>you. Could you please tell me if there is any truth to the
>following:

>>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:10:58 -0500
>>Subject: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>INEXPLICATA
>>The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
>>December 4, 2003

>>SOURCE: Diario de Yucatan (M=3DE9xico)
>>DATE: 12/4/03

>>"Our Lives Will Change on the 12th", claims Jaime Maussan

>>Ufologist Jaime Maussan, who has spent recent years lecturing on
>>the subject at different venues throughout the country, remarked
>>two nights ago at the Teatro Merida that "Something special will
>>happen on December 12th or a meteorite will strike us, bringing
>>about the end of the world."

<snip>

>Well List wags, there you have it! According to Jaime, he was
>quoting from statements made in the Stan Romanek case. (As per
>Lindemann and Kasher.) I have no reason to doubt his veracity.
>Neither does anybody else!

>As far as I'm concerned, this whole 'Jaime Maussan is making
>doomsday predictions' business is nothing more than comments he
>made in reference to the Romanek case. A case of
>misinterpretation.

<snip>

>Don't walk away to make a sandwich in the middle of the
>interview. You might misinterpret something or wrongly attribute
>a quote.

Yes, I got an email from Jaime Maussan last night getting right
to the point of what he said and didn't.

He's a big hero of the hispanic branches of my family and to my
neighbors which I relayed to Mr. Maussan. All you need do is
mention his name to them and they begin to glow and chat about
some story he covered or some interview he conducted. We
Americans may not realize how famous he is and how well admired.
Believe you me, he is.

So that's why I was concerned. In the many years he's covered
the news in a tough area like central and south america where
most fear to tread, I had to make sure I had the data correct.

He was nice enough to straighten it out politely.

We need more of that.

Best,

Greg









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               Re: Diario de Yucatan Retracts Maussan Story -

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 11:42:45 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 09:33:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Diario de Yucatan Retracts Maussan Story -


Listarians,

I retract my previous comment to UFO UpDates, whereby I
rhetorically asked, why Maussan would place himself in such a
position. Hispanic Ufology continues unabated... and the
excellent work the majority of hispanic researchers are
accomplishing, is astounding.

Thank you, Scott for your diligence in bringing the correction
to us and Maussan for clarifying his position.


Wendy Connors
Faded Discs








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                  Re: Drake Equation Naeye Sayer - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 10:12:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 09:46:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Drake Equation Naeye Sayer - Lehmberg


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>To: <- UFO - UpDates Subscribers ->
>Date: Sunday, December 07, 2003 9:51 AM
>Subject:  Drake Equation Naeye Sayer


>Source: The Sunday Toronto Star

http://www.torontostar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic
le_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1070752807867

>Dec. 7, 2003. 01:00 AM

>Drake's factors irrelevant in our lonely galaxy

>Terence Dickinson
>The Universe

<snip>

>The reality today is that more than 40 years of radio searching
>for extraterrestrial signals have turned up nothing and there is
>not a shred of evidence that aliens are travelling around the
>galaxy in spaceships.

"...not a shred"? What _planet_ is this guy on? There's a
massive six categories of evidence building steadily with every
minute passing. What the gentleman meant was that there was no
evidence that he would _accept_ as evidence... no "extraordinary
proof" providing the receding evidentiary horizon against
"extraordinary claims" that he requires to keep his palsied
worldview shipshape, and, incidentally that he has the open mind
and imagination of a neo-psychosocial fruit-fly...

>It all leads to the conclusion that, if we aren't alone, we are
>almost alone.

"Almost" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. ET is a
certainty given a little more thoughtfulness and an alien view.
I'm reminded of rivers in Egypt...

>Terence Dickinson is editor of Skynews magazine and author of
>books for backyard astronomers.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
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he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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             Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 10:23:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 09:50:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Lehmberg


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:33:52 -0000
>Subject: Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown"

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 07:44:56 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown"

>Pilgrims,

>Alfred wasted your time and mine with a rather long and ranting
>post, only sections of which I can be bothered to respond to.

Mr. Roberts. The only time wasted, energy squandered, and effort
misspent, sir, is as a result of _your_ spurious, shadow-filled,
and duplicitous activities, not mine. Actually, your time has
been shown to be best served addressing questions such as these
in hopes that you'll have less time to confound and confabulate
the efforts of other more honest researchers who haved suffered
you.

>>No sir... here we go for the first time, ever. You've opened a
>>Pandora's box, yourself, your water-fouling methods called into
>>serious question, and your corrosive impact on years of
>>ufological research assessed for the very first time.

>I think you'll find my ufological research is fully documented and
>referenced Alfred.

And how can we be assured of _that_ when you admit to, and are
shown to practice: research sabotage, evidence manipulation,
evidence fabrication, and deliberate hoaxing, Mr. Roberts? Your
proclamation of your own integrity does not provide for the
verity of same, sir.

>If you choose not to believe reality simply
>because you don't like the messenger then you're only going
>to see a very small part of what's going on.

Oh please, Mr. Roberts, my appreciation of you personaly (_or_
lack of same!) has nothing to do with the matter! You're trying
to slither out of the righteous spotlight upon you! Besides,
you'll recall I took your public side, recently, with regard to
a highly controversial issue used against you that I believe has
little to do with the subject at hand.

My feelings for you, one way or the other, have a similar
validity (read _none_!) in this discussion as the _other_ red
herring. Don't try to proclaim this debate over into something
that it's not. That's just _more_ duplicity and genuine
desingenuousness.

>>I shan't, sir. And hoisted by your own exploding petard? Perhaps others
>>won't either. Why should they? And in the future you may call me
>>Mr. Lehmberg, Mr. Roberts.

>Quite frankly Alfred, you and the handful of other tiny minded
>individuals
>on this list who don't understand ufology generally,

Right... We can stop right here, actually. The first to get mad,
get cute, or tender an insult has lost the argument. You're
breathing, heavily, on all three.

Quite frankly, Mr. Roberts, a mind as tiny as mine would be best
just ignored, wouldn't you agree? Yet you thrash and twist and
moan, descend to my level, so to speak... with much knashing of
feral teeth... curious...

Additionally, if _you're_ the measure of who understands ufology
(flying lighthouses notwithstanding!) then reality should have
its re-set button mashed... and fast.

>or the place hoaxes
>play
>specifically,

You're right. The history of _all_ discovery shows that we are
_best_ served by (...science is best served by...) deceit,
programmed duplicity, evidence manipulation, and injudicious
hoaxing. This is laughable, and I'm astonished that you can keep
a straight face yourself. Using your ethics we'd still be
banging rocks together and eating bushes while wondering what
'fire' was. Your inexplicably casual preceding comment is
_flabbergasting_ sir!

>can think what you want, rant what you want, and do what
>you want.

...and we'll forget that I don't need your permission to do
_any_ of those things, Mr. Roberts.

>You've clearly got nothing better to do than wallow in your
>own self pity because you have failed to contribute anything
>other than comment to the subject of UFOs.

Like most well-adjusted and rational persons, Mr. Roberts, the
only person that I have to please with my exertions is myself,
and whatever they are, they appear to be enough to spook _you_
from defilade to spew your irritation, your pique, and your ire
at being caught very, very wrong with no cogent explanation for
your behavior nor excuse for your egregious and insulting
transgressions against persons known and unknown in the
community.

>Those who can, do. Those who
>can't seem to talk about it an awful lot.


In the first place, Mr. Roberts, you're a _poor_ choice to
comment on what the rest of us may or may not be "doing" given
the way you do _your_ business and the impact that it may have
had on how we've done ours. Many of the rest of us are
interested in the truth regarding UFOs... it's not remotely
clear (any longer, if it ever was) what _you_ are interested
in... sir!

>Oh, and I'll call you whatever I choose Al.

As you wish. Your lack of respect for my wishes is to be
expected and, by this time, easily predictable. You know what my
wishes are, respect them or not as it suits you. I point out
that you'll reap what you sow, sir.

>>No argument there!

>Then why don't you do any?

Forgetting for a moment that I'm not here to clear any of _your_
obfuscating hurdles and that you are here to clear ones you've
thrown down in front of yourself... what I "do" is appreciated
by enough quality people to preclude the need for your
appreciation, too, sir. Additionally, I'm pleased with the level
of my (more honest and sincere) contribution to the field, even
if you are not. But thanks for your feedback... it's _very_
helpful.

>>Please Mr. Roberts, you humiliate yourself, sir. This is not
>>about me knowing what's going on; this is not about allegedly
>>paranoid statements of one of your many (how many?) victims!
>>This is about evidence manipulation, research sabotage,
>>character assassination, dirty tricks, and wasted time, energy,
>>and money... sir!

>I agree wholeheartedly, some of what I do is _exactly_ about that.

"...evidence manipulation, research sabotage, character
assassination, dirty tricks, wasted others time, energy, and
money..."?  I submit that if any part of that is what you're
about, and you admit it, then you betray yourself along with the
rest of us.

>And I told Max and the rest of updates about it 1998. Go back
>and read the posts then. You'll learn something. The only wasted
>time is yours. Don't. Time might be, as the Zen master Dogon said,
>'three eyes and eight elbows', but it's all we've got. Do you _really_
>want to be an old, bitter and twisted ufologist? Have some fun Alfred,
>for God's sake.

Please, sir! Don't worry about me, the use of my time, or my
reading list! I remind you, yet again, again... This is not
about me, Mr Roberts.

But since you express concern: I'm as young as I feel, sweet as
summer flowers, but decidedly fond of my own "twist"... ...and
back-dooring my peers and associates is not _my_ idea of having
a good time, even if it _is_ yours.

>>It is about self-admitted duplicitous behavior
>>and disingenuous procedures.
>
>Yeah, yeah...

... Yeah... yeah!

>>It is about how much further we
>>could all be ahead ufologically if we did not have persons and
>>institutions such as yourself standing obstructively in the way
>>of our progressive efforts! It's not about me, sir. It's about
>>you.

>I and the people I work with have made huge ufological progress
>thanks Alfred. Where's the evidence of what you've done, beyond
>these sad posts?

Your continued defense of the indefensible is what's sad, sir,
tragic even, but we're not talking about _my_ contribution here
(for all your pathetic squirming attempts to speciously refocus
the debate...), it is _your_ admitted and shameful lack of same.

>>You've betrayed a trust, Mr. Roberts, and continue that betrayal
>>as long as we don't have an audit of your admitted
>>shenanigans... and accounting of them and a redress for same...
>>Moreover, you've done so out of arrogance and indifference to
>>the sensibilities of the individuals with which you have
>>communicated. You've smeared yourself, sir, and what is
>>childish is the indifference of your disingenuous actions and
>>your inability to see the lack of integrity that the behavior
>>entailed.

>Well, Alfred, I'll go stand in the corner then, eh?

_Make_ jokes - fewer are laughing. But you better get to that
corner, yourself, before its too late, as it's the only hope you
really have.

>>Sir -- you're not getting it or continuing the disingenuous.
>>It's not about me; it's not about my 'beliefs' or my provoked
>>lack of belief in you, sir! It's about integrity and
>>professional behavior of best practice!

>No, Alfred, I'm 'getting it' just fine, thanks. I'm getting just how
>wound up some ufologists can easily be.

Forgive my passion, sir, but I perceive a ufological second-
story man in our midst and feel compelled to alert the community
to it. And I was "unwound" enough before you started playing
fast and loose with the aggregate ufological sensibility...Mr.
Roberts it's _you_ and your conflicted CSICOPians turned my key!

>And all that does is amuse me further.

I don't think you're amused at _all_, sir. You've the stink of
fear-sweat on you. The breach in your hull is massive, even as
you deny it.

>If you wish to waste your time worrying about
>my life and taking the trouble to comment on it that's fine. I'll
>always be here for you to shed light on your thoughts.

The proof of that will be in the pudding, Mr Roberts. And I
think as time goes on and your _real_ contribution becomes more
clear... fewer and fewer will be spooning it up.

...And I'm not worried about your life Mr. Roberts, I've
concerns about your professional behavior, and this _is_ the
assigned spot to comment on it... you would have us believe that
I'm doing something originally unusual...? Far from it.

>>Pride goes before the fall, sir. And the problem is that there
>>has been _no_ explanation, forgetting the account... _or_ the
>>redress.

>Yes there has. You clearly weren't paying attention Alfred.

Your 'explanation' (such that it is) is that you are duplicitous
for good scientific reasons that we are incapable of
understanding..... That explanation leaves something to be
desired, sir.

I'd be open to a review, a reminder, or a brush-up regarding
your methoeds and how they 'elevate' a ufological study rather
than _destroy_ it! I've demonstrated an even-handedness over the
years, and believe what's right is right... even as you fail to
demonstrate same. I'll admit an error! Set me aright, sir. I'd
like to 'understand', and as I'm representative of persons
expected to buy your books (or extend you idiosyncratic credit),
it seems it's in your best interest to help me do just that.

>>Let's see... Tarbaby, brer' fox and brer' bear... Brer rabbit
>>gets stuck in the tarbaby, facilitating capture by brer' fox
>>who's out-foxed by brer' rabbit convincing brer fox that he
>>doesn't want to be thrown in the briar patch -- when that's what
>>he wanted all along... I suspect you're a little confused with
>>regard to character assignment for the analogy is all, Mr.
>>Roberts... plainly, they're not as you thought they were.

>Nope. I was right first time. Eric Berne really missed out when
>he failed to include 'Brer Rabbit' in Games People Play.

Still - casting does not seem to be your strong suit, sir, and
I'm not the one playing games.

>Easy, Alfred, easy.

I'm quite comfortable, sir, thank you.


>Happy Trails

>Andy


What trail? There is unknown ruin behind and perceived ruin
ahead. Your trail, sir, is as imaginary as your wish for a
reader's happiness on it.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Dec > Dec 8

                Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:20:15 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 09:24:14 -0500
Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Clark


>From: William Scott Scherk <wss@uniserve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:28:54 -0800
>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:31:24 -0800
>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Rudiak

Patient and gentle listfolk:

>The camp that asserts an alien UFO crash at Roswell is the
>majority, dominates TV programming, radio broadcasts, web sites
>and newsletter publications. This camp produces and sells the
>most books, tapes and videos, attracts the most tourists to its
>'crash sites,' and the most attenders to its conferences.

What a load of crap. I can attest, as an author of UFO books and
friend or acquaintance of other writers in the field, that
there's no money in it, the self-serving debunker mythologies
aside. In my next life, in fact, I am going to be a professional
skeptic and ride the gravy train engineered by CSICOP, whose
budget surely surpasses that of all pro-anomaly groups in
America combined, with plenty of green stuff to spare.

>There is Science Frontiers, X-Project, Fortean Times, Strange
>Magazine, Parascope News, Journal of Scientific Exploration,
>FATE magazine, The Anomalist, Narratives of the Weird . . . And
>umpteen thousands of websites and mailing lists.

Not a single organization interested in anomalies and the
paranormal from a favorable or open-minded perspective can claim
a fraction of the money CSICOP possesses. Nor do proponents or
the open-minded have a fraction of the influence CSICOP and the
elite media (which virtually never cover issues concerning
anomalies from a favorable or even neutral perspective) have on
the thinking of all those in a position to encourage, sponsor,
or fund research into ufology, cryptozoology, or parapsychology.
As an officer of CUFOS, I can speak personally to the all-but-
nonexistent resources going to serious UFO research - as
opposed to the abundant cash and support that flow, in an
unending stream, toward professional debunking groups which tell
elites what they want to hear.

There is something vaguely obscene about what's going on here:
the presentation of CSICOP's overheated rhetoric, used to
lucrative effect in its numerous fund-raising letters, as if it
were supposed to be taken seriously - as if, in other words,
that it had any other purpose than a mercenary one.

In a world full of _real_ problems, it is hilarious - or
pathetic, take your choice - to take note of CSICOP's idea of a
huge social problem: that truck drivers and grocery clerks take
UFOs more seriously than do the wealthy and powerful who fund
CSICOP and spread its message in all major media. "Major media"
do not include low-budget cable outlets that air cheesy
"documentaries," or for that matter a small city's efforts to
separate tourists from their money.

Anybody who swallows CSICOP's rhetoric whole is not a "skeptic,"
just another slack-jawed true believer with his or her own
distinctive deity. As my late friend Marcello Truzzi, cofounder
and then fierce and articulate critic of CSICOP, used to put it:
pseudo-skepticism is easy; real skepticism is hard.

CSICOP is easy.


Jerry Clark








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   Dec > Dec 8

                       SDI #269 Sunday Morning After!

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 12:22:59 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 09:56:16 -0500
Subject: SDI #269 Sunday Morning After!



Ladies and Gentlemen of the UpDates Brytherhood!

My thin-pipe dialup didn't choke so I was able to time-shift SDI
to Sunday morning! What a treat! Verily, when I hit the lottery
I'm going to finance a cross referenced audio archive for SDI so
these things can be used for historical purposes like they
should. This is especially important given the eclectic nature
of the program's contribution to aggregate ufology, but I
digress, so on with the show!

...Great program Saturday night, from the unmasking of neo-
psychosocial towel boys through exposure of CSICOPian
disinformation campaigns, to sage ufological advice from
history's archives via Wendy Connor's (not so) Faded Disc
collection, an aural feast! Then it was south of the border,
_way_ south to Brazil, for more nails in the coffin of neo-
psychosocialists (NPS) everywhere regarding to the NPS's still-
born attempt to discredit Trindade, one of the more vetted
photographed and multiple-witnessed sightings _ever_!

First up and in the tradition of early cyberspace where it was
first discovered how easy it was to "...open mouth, insert foot,
and echo internationally..." William Scott Scherk (Andy Roberts'
new philosophical towel boy), recently braving the ufological
blue water of UFO UpDates for the first time, shared his patent
ignorance or abject cluelessness for us and was, as a reward (no
good deed goes unpunished!), the peripheral subject of Dave
Furlotte's current "Take on it" for the week. Ouch!

Scherk's peculiar brand of rationality was dissected handily, on
the air, and appropriate comparisons with CSICOPia made. A more
detailed analysis and evaluation of our neighbor Mr. Scherk was
done on UpDates via a David Rudiak response recently... ouch,
ouch! It may be that our Mr. Scherk has discovered we play with
live ammo in these here parts of the ufological wild west...

Second up... I'm going to write, in a future review, thoughts
regarding Wendy Connors' Faded Discs Collection, an astonishing
contribution to historical Ufology, so I'll just mention it in
passing there. On this SDI program she shared several clips by
the not well known, but seminal, Dr. James E. McDonald, and
provided a wonderful example, yet again: the clear demonstration
that from the very _beginning_, and at the very -start-,
_credible _ people were giving _credible _ reports to _credible
_ officials running _credible _ investigations, and these
reports were, in turn, considered _credible _ by the even more
elevated and _hyper-credible _!

Wendy's clips provide, you guessed it, _credible_ learned
dismissals of all the major ufological debunking campaigns of
our times. Destroyed was the axe-grinding Robertson Panel!
Smashed was the (stillborn from the starting gate) Condon
Committee! Project bluebook? Hulled below the water line - shown
to be an insult to our intelligence! Wendy is to be commended
for bringing this great man back to the light of our attentions!

Additionally - I don't think I'm entirely out of line to risk
offending Mr. Hall, a great man in his own right (who knew Dr.
McDonald and could speak for him - knows his value...) that Dr.
McDonald was taken from us in association with conditions and
situations that were "highly strange" and suspicious
themselves... as would befit a man of such a high caliber and
respected intelligence that he could hardly be allowed to
champion _any_ ufological investigation (which he was very
passionate about), and was, perhaps, rubbed out to facilitate
same? With all respect to Mr. Hall, I don't think it's much of a
stretch.

Thanks Wendy.

Onward, South of the border, Mr. Pedro Luz Cunha, all the way
from Brazilia (and in excellent English), fills us in on (and
hammers the lid a little more securely upon) the Trindade
sighting, as if it needed to be done. Dead neo-psychosocials
dervish in their graves and living ones wail and gnash vulpine
teeth... _I_ feel well served.

And speaking of being well served? All around great show! The
_only_ wrong with it is _I_ wasn't on it! <LOL> Thanks Errol.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged - $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Dec > Dec 8

                 Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 -

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:50:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 09:59:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 -


>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:51:40 -0400
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:40:18 EST
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:10:58 -0500
>>>Subject: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>INEXPLICATA
>>>The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
>>>December 4, 2003

>>>SOURCE: Diario de Yucatan (M=E9xico)
>>>DATE: 12/4/03

>>>"Our Lives Will Change on the 12th", claims Jaime Maussan

<snip>

>I remember when mentioning UFOs around the Catholic Church would
>get one excommunicated ( or as we used to say in the Bowery
<'excruciated' :)<

If you are being serious, then your memory is seriously flawed.
Never has mentioning UFOs (or even believing in them - whatever
they are) been a basis for ex-communication from the Roman
Catholic church. However, such a thing can easily get one kicked
out of many factions of the fundamentalist Christian community,
unless, of course, one talks of UFOs as demons.


Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery








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   Dec > Dec 9

                       Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Roberts

From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 18:19:33 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 07:19:42 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Roberts


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:19:30 -0000
>Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets'

>Surely this wouldn't be the same military who are so good at
>keeping the existence of extraterrestrials, and their
>malfunctioning craft, secret?

>Or perhaps there's _two_ governments? One who pretends to be
>incompetent and the other, the one that really knows everything.

You have hit the nail on the head, sir. I'm no expert on
government or military intelligence, but I know they're better
at keeping some secrets more than others. And the effort they
put into secrecy is usually directly proportional to how much
they're responsible for screwing something up. I imagine there's
some formula regarding secrecy that says the more important the
secret, the more people have to know about it, and that makes it
harder to contain. I suppose that's the rationale for
disinformation. If you can't totally contain a secret, muddy the
waters so much that if a little chunk does escape, it won't be
noticed among all the other nonsense. Then you don't have to
keep the whole thing secret, only the stray piece here and
there. But then we're back where we started.

I don't consider myself a conspiracy nut, because the nuts
always seem to think a conspiracy is something so surprising and
extraordinary that we should all be shocked. Conspiracy?
Secrecy?

Of course. Since the beginning of humanity. But I can only
conjecture about the scope and nature of the UFO secrets and
conspiracy. Maybe they have all the answers. Maybe they work
really hard to make sure nobody finds out they don't know
anything.








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   Dec > Dec 9

                Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs -

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 22:29:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:18:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:34:59 -0800
>Subject: Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>>To:  ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 12:56:04 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs

>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:17:12 -0800
>>>Subject: Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs

>><snip>

>>Interesting stuff Frank. Please Keep your eyes open for any
>>reference to one William Stephenson.

>There is of course mention of the infamous "Intrepid" in
>Brown's book, but I personally haven't seen anything past that.
>(Yet).


Thank you Frank,

If indeed there was some connection with Donovan to some
classifed project concerning UFOs both during or following the
war, I can't see Stephenson not being in that loop, first with
the BSI at the time and of course Canadian intelligence. It's
interesting to note as well that Stephenson was the only non-
American to receive an award from the CIA back in [I believe-my
records/references are in storage] 1970. I've always been
fascinated by what intelligence connections there had to be
between the US and Canada both during the war and after due to
the "Intrepid"/Donovan connection. And how little is known about
them.


Best,

Don Ledger










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   Dec > Dec 9

                       Stan Romanek And December 12th

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 02:22:10 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:20:28 -0500
Subject: Stan Romanek And December 12th


Apparently the bottom line on Maussan is/was that he was
repeating previous research done by others into the Stan Romanek
case.

For details about Stans case you can go to:

http://www.neilslade.com/ufos.html where information is posted.

A small brief summary is in order of only this one small piece
of information in a larger sea of data.

Apparently (during a regression session with Deborah Lindemann)
Stan drew a planetary diagram that was impressed upon him during
the session. Now accounts vary from this point forward.

Supposedly by non-Stan accounts the ET's told him there is going
to be this big global castrophe...perhaps a giant tidal wave
that would hit the west coast at sunset on the 12th. When the
information was impressed upon him his mind apparently asked the
question all of us may ask of When? Supposedly his brain was
impressed with this planatary diagram.

Supposedly the original drawing vanished in the mail, however
the session was video taped so researchers were able to see what
he drew and start doing research into what particular date would
the diagram Stan drew match to. This is where the December 12th
2003 date came up. Supposedly Stan is mildly dyslexia and
believes that he drew the diagram backwards which makes the
December 12th date incorrect.

Apparently some researcher is insisting that the December 12th
date is correct; that Stan had talked about giant tidal waves at
some point (unknown as to if it was in this regression) and how
callers are calling some national radio talk shows about dreams
involving giant tidal waves blah blah blah, so at least in this
persons minds all this information corelates.

Stan on the other hand insists that people should get a grip,
that no global catastrophe is going to happen; that the diagram
in circulation is not correct and that he has been trying to
correct this rumor/mistake for some time. Apparently his feeling
is that some kind of change will take place is going to happen
on whatever date that the real/actual diagram matches up to
although he apparently doesn't think its death/destruction
castrophe type change.

Bottom line is this appears to be misinterpretation of data by
researchers other then Stan.


Cheers,

Robert






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              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 23:54:23 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:22:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Myers


>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution@sbcglobal.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 28 Aug 1956 03:09:16 -0800
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

Greetings Listers,

It has been some time since I have posted to UpDates, but I just
couldn't pass this one up. I don't intend to make a habit of
posting, but here are a few things that you might want to see:

http://www.rense.com/general45/stan.htm

http://www.rense.com/general45/warn.htm

The Stan Romanek case is another topic all together...

As for Maussan having credibility as a jouranlist/investigator,
it is my opinion he is just one more in a lump of UFO clowns
that rehash other people's material and make sensationalist and
unverifiable claims. I hope that no one forgets his involvement
with the Hale Bopp fiasco and the Reed UFO Fraud, or his
notorious promotion of bogus alien photos and bogus WTC UFO
video. Now, I understand that this other piece of alleged WTC
video _is not_ what was shown on the Sci-Fi Channel some time
ago and I have not seen it, though Maussan did promote the Sci-
 Fi piece as the real deal and we all now know it was faked by
Sci Fi.

During my investigation into the Reed UFO Fraud, a case I blew
the lid off of in spite of the claims of others, Maussan was
still promoting the case as real, failed to follow up on
information I had provided him with, never responded to comment
about the case, never presented the facts of the case to the
public, and after the case had been exposed he continued to
promote it as the real deal. Read on:

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/reedufofraud.html

One aspect of the Reed UFO Fraud that was never publicly
reported by Maussan or those associated with him, was while
"Dr.Reed" was in Mexico, Maussan had hired several bodyguards to
tail the good "doctor". At one point "Dr.Reed" had gone into a
bathroom while being watched, struck himself in the face and ran
to where Maussan and a few others were at and claimed that some
men had just attacked him. Maussan was informed about "Dr.Reed"
striking himself with a clsoed fist. Of course, we never heard
about this and it was at the high point of the case where
Maussan had "Dr.Reed" and others on a speaking tour and media
blitz of Mexico. There is _SO_ much more about this case and
Maussan's involvement that has not been presented, it would
simply amaze you as to what took place.

Whenever people hear that Maussan is making claims of one
variety or another, I don't at all blame them for shaking their
heads and rolling their eyes, or even becoming cynical. You reap
what you sow in this field, and no matter how much water Maussan
puts on his seeds people instantly smell bullshit whether it is
there or not. Remember the tale of the boy who cried wolf one
too many times.

Whether he made the recent claims or not, who knows. But in the
end, Maussan has absolutely no credibilty in this field with a
number of people.

I met Maussan when I first entered this field and it was in Los
Angeles at a UFO Expo West - same place I first had the
displeasure of meeting Sean David Morton, which is all together
another story. Anyhow, Maussan stopped by a table I was sitting
at and just started chatting with me about UFOs. The
conversation seemed to be going fine until Maussan told me that
giant UFOs were orbiting the planet disgusied as stars. I asked
Maussan what evidence he had and he told me, I kid you not, that
the stars movement in the night time sky was his proof! Don't
think I didn't ask for clarification several times, I did and
the response was the same - Maussan's english speaking
capability is just fine, there was no misunderstanding.
Planetary rotation = giant UFO motherships? I think not.

While Maussan may have some legitimate UFO footage, it has been
drowned out by his past antics, claims, and sensationalistic
promotion of bunk UFO cases. I don't think this is a Maussan
bash-fest here, I think people are simply frustrated with the
sheer number of claims and UFO rubbish Maussan promotes - of
which either prove to be hoaxes or never come true.

Just my two-cents here on this. I hope everyone on the list is
doing very well and that you all have a great time with family
and friends during the holidays. And remember to count yourself
among the very lucky to have what you have.

Keep watching the skies, but always keep one foot on the
ground...


--Royce







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                    Morehead Kentucky Field Investigation

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 03:02:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:24:10 -0500
Subject: Morehead Kentucky Field Investigation


Around 3:30 P.M. on Dec. 5th, 2003 we arrived in Morehead,
Kentucky and after photographing the area we stopped to speak
with the resident at 472 Skaggs Rd. (his name is on file). We
had some concern that the NUFORC report originated from a
resident of "472 Skaggs Road" (this location is listed on the
original NUFORC report), but this was not the case as the
resident at 472 did not report anything to NUFORC, reporting the
11/21 situation only to the police department. This gentleman,
who had heard the screams and called the police, recalled that
the situation began -he thought- around 7:00 p.m. on Friday,
Nov. 21 when he heard blood curdling screams coming from the
field behind his house. He told us that the screams consisted of
3 verbal sounds of "Help me, Oh God, somebody help me!" and 1
long nonverbal scream. According to this witness, the duration
of the blood curdling screams lasted about 2-minutes. He said
that within 20 minutes he had called the police. He recalled
that the police, fire and rescue squad searched the field up
until about 10 p.m.. The witness said that he also conducted a
short search. When asked if the screams sounded like someone in
trouble, the witness replied with a worried expression that the
person sounded to be in certain distress. He said that he did
not see a UFO, but did add that the animals in the neighborhood
were behaving wildly. The witness agreed to an over-the-shoulder
photo of him pointing into the field where he heard the screams.

Next we stopped at the home of the first UFO witness, a UK
psychologist. This house is almost one quarter of a mile up a
winding road from our first subject. We arrived at his home at
around 3:55 p.m. and spoke at length to the witness. He
recounted the event for us. He added that during the UFO
sighting, his son tried to use his cell phone but it would not
work. He again said that the search and rescue personnel arrived
in the field 20-minutes after the UFO had departed. The UK
psychologist informed that after the report of this incident
appeared on the internet, he received calls and E-mails from
folks with the University of New Mexico and others (he copied us
on two E-mails). He said that he did read the article online and
said it was largely accurate, except that only 1 of his two sons
had heard the scream. He said that the screams were heard by his
son who was accompanied by a friend. The witness agreed to an
over-the-shoulder photo of him pointing toward the field where
the UFO was sighted.

Our next stop was at Shoney's restaurant near the Interstate 64
exit at Morehead. While there we spoke to a waitress and asked
if anyone there had seen a UFO recently. The waitress was
shocked and told us that about two weeks earlier, she was riding
with her sister when they noticed an unusual yellow light in the
sky. She said they watched and discussed the light for about 30
seconds. When asked to point to the area where she saw the
object, she gestured toward the Skaggs Road vicinity. She also
said that on a Sunday evening, also around 2 weeks ago, she was
kept awake by a helicopter flying repeatedly over her house from
11:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m.

At around 5:30 p.m. we went to the home of a volunteer paramedic
with the Fire and Rescue Squad of Morehead. After a chat with
this person, we then drove directly to the Rowan County Fire and
Rescue Squad and at approx. 5:45 p.m. sat down at a folding
table for a brief chat with several Rowan County Fire and Rescue
Squad personnel in the center of the fire house. A few of the
officers present had participated in the search and rescue
operation. They advised that the call about the screaming woman
had been first reported by a resident on 472 Skaggs Rd. on Nov.
21 at 21:45 military time, or 9:45 p.m. E.D.T. They, along with
the Morehead police, responded and found no one. There was no
helicopter involved in the search operation, and they focused on
a pond in the area. They used a thermal imaging device. They
were also asked about the report of a 'baby' seen in the area
and, referring to their logs, said that there was an unusual
report from a female motorist from Indiana on Thanksgiving
morning. The motorist, traveling near Morehead, had called
around 4:00 a.m. to report a 3-year old baby wearing only a
diaper walking near the roadside near Route 60. The motorist did
not stop to help but only continued on, calling from a location
miles away. The police responded but found no baby, and no baby
was reported missing. When asked for any other reports of
unusual interest, we were told that months earlier, persons had
complained of a helicopter or airplane crash in the county when
no wreckage could be found, and a separate report from
Flemingsburg, KY almost 6-months earlier of a woman found in a
field with amnesia. Altogether, we spoke to 5 members of the
Rowan County Rescue Squad and three of these people were
involved in the search. They told us that they had only heard
rumors of the UFO sighting involving a female abduction, and
they suggested the police may know more. One officer referenced
the UK psychologist as the witness to the UFO abducting a woman,
but we explained that this was not his testimony. It appears the
report of a 'baby' does not directly relate to the Nov. 21
incident (Note: The Police Dept. earlier said the search for the
'screaming woman' was on Sunday the 23rd, but when checking the
fire department run sheets, nothing could be found under that
date.)

Our final stop at the Silver Road residence of Mrs. Woods, who
also claims to have also seen a UFO on Friday, Nov. 21st. We
arrived at Approx. 6:15 p.m. and Mrs. Woods (name changed, on
file), told us that she and her daughter had been putting up
Christmas lights outside. It was dusk when they were finishing
up. We pressed her on the time and she held to her belief that
it was around 6:30 p.m. when they were finishing up and had
spotted a white light in the vicinity of the field. She
described the light as "zig zagging" around and coming down.
Once behind the trees it looked to be jumping up and down and
reminded her corn popping up. She said that she bent over for a
moment, looked back up and the light was gone. She said that the
animals were going crazy in the neighborhood and that her own
dog had hid under the bed whimpering. She also said that she did
not hear the screams, but when she came back into the house the
phones were ringing and people were calling to see if she and
her daughter were all right. Apparently they had heard about the
screaming woman over police scanners, and thought it might have
been Mrs. Woods and her daughter. She said that after the UFO
sighting, her clocks were not working properly and several had
quit working altogether. She also spoke of nose bleeds since the
UFO sighting, but believes they are a result of her home being
too dry. She was not prompted on these questions and volunteered
them without being lead. We thanked Mrs. Woods for her time and
we left approx. 7:00 p.m.

Filed,
December 8, 2003

Donnie Blessing, Kenny Young







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               Re: Vernon British Columbia - 11-30-03 - Frison

From: Eugene Frison <GeneFrison@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 08:34:01 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:27:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Vernon British Columbia - 11-30-03 - Frison


>From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:44:31 -0800
>Subject: Vernon British Columbia - 11-30-03

>Vernon, British Columbia

>Date:  December 3, 2003
>Time:  4:45 p.m.

>Hi Brian

>December 3 at 4:45 p.m. the bright white light appeared over the
>hill south of the airport. The sky was clear after sunset. It
>hovered and sparkled. A red sphere flashed by going south. My
>neighbor came out on his balcony for a cigarette. The white
>light hovered. When he went in it started it's  vertical decent.
>It went down very slowly a bit at a time until it disappeared in
>the trees, at 500 p.m.


2003.12.08


Hi Brian, list:

Although in an earlier e-mail regarding this sighting your
witness said the white light was in the wrong place for Venus, I
strongly suspect the witness is in error and the light being
watched is, in fact, Venus.

The description and behavior of the light - plus the fact that
it is showing up with such precise timing on multiple nights -
 are strong indicators that it probably is a star or planet.

I don't think you have to look any farther than Venus as an
explanation for this 'sighting'. Venus is visible low in the SW
at dusk and your witness is providing a classic description of
the setting of the evening star.


Regards,

Eugene Frison

MUTUAL UFO NETWORK, INC. (MUFON)
`````````````````````````````````````````````````

INTERNATIONAL HEADQUARTERS
mufonhq@aol.com
John Schuessler - International Director


CANADIAN BOARD OF DIRECTORS

CANADIAN HEAD OFFICE
genefrison@aol.com
Eugene Frison - National Director

CANADIAN CASES INVESTIGATION COMMITTEE
cjas55@yahoo.ca
Chris Styles - Canadian Director of Investigations

CANADIAN RECORDS AND RESEARCH
mjs@intergate.ca
ebarker2@mb.sympatico.ca
Michael Strainic ... Ed Barker
Co-Directors of Canadian Cold Case Archives and Research

EASTERN REGION
linda.chernabrow@mcgill.ca
Linda Chernabrow - Eastern Regional Director (Canada)

CENTRAL REGION
mikebird@interlog.com
Mike Bird - Central Regional Director (Canada)

WESTERN REGION
gavin_mcleod@telus.net
Gavin McLeod - Western Regional Director


WEBSITE: http://www.mufon.com







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                 Sci Fi Channel-Backed Researcher Sues NASA

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:49:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:30:09 -0500
Subject: Sci Fi Channel-Backed Researcher Sues NASA


Source: www.freedomofinfo.org

Posted on Fri, Dec. 05, 2003


Sci Fi Channel-backed researcher sues NASA over UFO files

JOE MANDAK
Associated Press

PITTSBURGH - A researcher backed by cable television's Sci Fi
Channel plans to sue NASA for records she contends the agency
has of a UFO that reportedly crash landed and was recovered by
government workers in southwestern Pennsylvania in 1965.

The Associated Press obtained an advance copy of the lawsuit to
be filed Tuesday in federal court in Washington, D.C., on behalf
of Leslie Kean, a San Rafael, Calif., investigative reporter
backed by the cable channel and a group called the Coalition for
Freedom of Information.

"Our lawsuit is aimed at getting NASA to tell the public what it
knew and when it knew it," said Ed Rothschild, a lobbyist the
Sci Fi Channel hired from the Washington firm PodestaMattoon,
who is also identified as CFI's executive director. Former
President Bill Clinton's one-time chief of staff John Podesta is
a principle in the lobbying firm and has supported the cable
channel's effort to declassify the documents.

Bob Jacobs, a spokesman for the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, said he was unaware of the lawsuit and could not
comment.

Tuesday's filing will mark the 38th anniversary of the Kecksburg
UFO incident, which occurred Dec. 9, 1965, in the unincorporated
hamlet about 30 miles southeast of Pittsburgh.

Witnesses described a "fireball" in the evening sky, and a
metallic, acorn-shaped object about 12 to 15 feet high and 8 to
12 feet in diameter that landed in the woods, according to media
accounts in the Tribune-Review of Greensburg and other outlets
at the time.

Military personnel quickly surrounded the site, removed the
object, threatened residents who tried to inquire about it, and
left - later calling the object a "meteor," according to media
accounts.

James Romansky, 57, of Derry Township, was then a 19-year-old
volunteer firefighter. He told The Associated Press on Friday
that he was among those who drove to the landing site.

"Now, I'm prepared for a smashed-up airplane ... and I'm
thinking, 'What in the hell is this?' I'm looking for wings,
propellers, motors, a fuselage - but there's none of that,"
Romansky said. "There's no rivet marks on it, no weld marks on
it, no windows, no doors - no possible way of getting in and out
of this thing that I seen.

"There was writing on it, but not writing that you or I could
understand. I always referred to it as something like the
ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. There was dots and dashes and
circles," Romansky said.

The cable network announced in June that it was backing the
effort to research the Kecksburg incident in promoting a
documentary, "Out of the Blue," which examined various UFO
reports.

"This should have been done a long time ago," Romansky said.
"The United States government has given us a snow job for the
last God knows when. I can't understand it for the life of me.
They can't come out and say it's nothing because I was 10, 20
feet away from it."

Sci Fi Channel officials said they're looking for an explanation
of what occurred. They're also looking for viewers.

A November 2002 documentary on the suspected 1947 UFO crash in
Roswell, New Mexico, was the highest-rated special in the
network's 11-year history. It was seen by nearly 2.4 million
people, or about 2 1/2 times Sci Fi's usual prime-time audience.

The lawsuit contends NASA has thwarted Kean's efforts to
retrieve official files on the incident by sending her
irrelevant information or nothing in response to Freedom of
Information Act requests.

"Despite our serious effort to uncover the facts, NASA still
refuses to provide the public with any information," said Sci Fi
Channel president Bonnie Hammer. "We are hopeful that our legal
system will help us find out what really happened in the woods
outside Kecksburg."

ON THE NET

Sci Fi Channel: http://www.scifi.com

Coalition for Freedom of Information:
http://www.freedomofinfo.org

National Aeronautics and Space Administration:
http://www.nasa.gov




=A9 2003 AP Wire and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.philly.com








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                   Re: Congress and Disclosure - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22@fastmail.fm>
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 05:56:45 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:32:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure - Hamilton


>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution@sbcglobal.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 27 Aug 1956 23:23:41 -0800
>Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure

>>From: Vince White <Vinceomni@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:52:52 EST
>>Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 23:26:40 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure

>>>Your paranoia and your totally unfounded assumptions are only
>>>exceeded by your ignorance of the way the real world works in
>>>Washington, D.C.

>>>Who am I to say?

><snip>

>>When serious hearings happen, probably in the wake of a breakout
>>UFO event, such as a live broadcast of a close up UFO, the long
>>hidden interest of some of Congress will be visible. The now
>>very cloistered curiosity will be loud and angry, There are very
>>bright members of congress who will demand answers to the very
>>issues Greer introduced at his press conference. The late Ben
>>Rich's successor may be asked to explain that slide of a black
>>disc heading into space, that Rich showed to an engineering
>>conference in 93, stating we have the means to the stars.

><snip>

>In the statement above, you made a claim that in an engineering
>conference of 1993 Ben Rich presented a slide of a black-disc
>heading into space and told his audience that we have the means
>to go to the stars.

>I would like to know how you obtained this alleged information.

>I also would like you to state the exact date of that
>conference, its location, the name of the organization that
>presented the conference, and if you have the names of any
>people you claim saw the presentation by Ben Rich.

Josh,

I will answer for him as I have that data. Jan Harzan is the
Director of MUFON O.C. and it is he who heard the statements.

Well, it just so happens that Jan was the source of the rumor
that Ben Rich made statements in a presentation he gave to the
group of engineers which happened to be members of a UCLA Alumni
association who were invited to hear this presentation by Ben
Rich on March 23, 1993.

The late Ben R. Rich, a UCLA School of Engineering alumnus (MS
'50) who is known as the "Father of Stealth," is recognized as
one of the best aircraft engineers in the world and led
development of the heralded F-117 stealth fighter.

Knowing Jan, I called him to clarify what Ben said at this
presentation to UCLA engineering alumni. I work at UCLA and am
only steps away from the engineering building.

Here is what Jan, a Senior Project Executive with Boeing told me
about Ben's presentation:

- Ben showed slides and went through the history of the Skunk
Works. Showed pics of U2 and SR-71 and drones that no one had
seen before.

- The kicker was the last slide. It showed a black disk headed
for space. Ben showed this and made the statement, "We now have
the technology to take ET home". He made this statement in 1993,
but did not say how long we have had this tech.

There was a Q&A after the lecture. In this Q&A, he told the
engineers that it was now possible to travel to the stars. There
was an error in the equations which was corrected. The time of
travel is fast, but he didn't say how fast.

Ben said he believed that security was too oppressive and that
the time had come to develop this technology in the commercial
world now that the cold war has ended. Months later he died of
cancer.

Jan is going to consult with his friend Tom who was also present
and do an article on this in a future MUFON Journal.


- Bill Hamilton






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                Re: In Light Of The Morehead Incident - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 09:28:10 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 12:31:28 -0500
Subject: Re: In Light Of The Morehead Incident - Shell


>From: Darrell Holtz <akashicrecordings@occultmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 11:22:12 -0800 (PST)
>Subject: In Light Of The Morehead Incident

>Let us for a minute push aside our anthropomorphism and
>contemplate the human, being no more than an ant in the cosmic
>scheme of things.

How does one even begin to imagine what might go on in a truly
"alien" mind? Even imagining them considering us to be ants is
an idea derived from a human point of view. I don't know if I
can even imagine something that has an entirely different kind
of "intelligence" than is defined by us, let alone motivation or
morality.








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             Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:23:37 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 13:40:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Roberts


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 10:23:34 -0600
>Subject: Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown"

Pilgrims,

Alfred wrote a very long post again. As he has nothing new to
say I'm not going to waste listspace in going over the same
ground yet again. However, there are two parts of his nonsense I
will respond to:

>Right... We can stop right here, actually. The first to get mad,
>get cute, or tender an insult has lost the argument. You're
>breathing, heavily, on all three.

I didn't realise we were arguing Alfred - I'm just amusing
myself whilst listening to the Grateful Dead. Your response,
however, is most illuminating and tells us much about you. As I
said at the end of a previous post, easy Alfred, easy.

>Set me aright, sir. I'd
>like to 'understand', and as I'm representative of persons
>expected to buy your books (or extend you idiosyncratic credit),
>it seems it's in your best interest to help me do just that.

I'm afraid that's where your entirely wrong Alfred. I have no
wish for you to read my books at all. You or any ufologist who
clearly can't think clearly. My books etc. are written more for
the general public, and for serious ufologists, who haven't been
warped by listening to people such as yourself, who, as I've
said before, are keen to offer comment but much less keen to
produce work of lasting relevance to the subject.

Now, as I said to Stuart M, go away and don't appear in my mail
box again until you have something useful - and concise - to
say!


Happy Trails

Andy








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                   Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 11:01:35 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 13:42:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Lehmberg


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 16:36:44 -0000
>Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 19:55:21 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions


>Pilgrims,

<snip>

>>As it happens, I believe that people who insist "Andy Roberts"
>>exists are mad as well. I don't believe them and I have no
>>acceptable proof that he exists,

>They probably are, but quite a few of them seem to spend and
>inordinate amount of their time stalking and harassing me!

<snip>

"Stalking and harassing"? As I live and breath I don't believe
there has ever been such a perfect irony as this! I think many
would agree that this is the guilty pot calling the hapless
kettle black, and I think myself that you suspiciously confuse
(and rather conveniently I add) "stalking and harassing" persons
with newly alerted persons fed up with your easy duplicity and
irritated with your destructive professional behavior. Don't
whine, Mr. Roberts... you've made this sour and short-sheeted
bed! Catch your 40 winks! The last refuge of the scoundrel, I
anticipate your threats of legal action regarding the self-
styled "stalking and harassing" you so *unjustly* suffer.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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                       Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 18:03:31 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:24:28 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Miller


>From: Stephen MILES Lewis <ufoupdates@elfis.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:14:19 -0600
>Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets'

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:34:44 -0000
>>Subject: 'Strange Secrets'

><snip>

>>Naturally Andrew, it does beg one rather obvious question. Why
>>would the US government go to all that trouble involving
>>expense, bad press, financial loss to their beloved farmers,
>>intense media interest, the risk of getting caught and so on,
>>just to carry out what would be a perfectly acceptable health
>>check on domestic cattle? Gee, they could even set up their own
>>faux wholesale company and buy the cattle in, without raising an
>>eyebrow. It is so stupid a conclusion that it beggars belief.

><snip>

>Remember the NIDS report ...

>Unexplained Cattle Deaths and the Emergence of a Transmissible
>Spongiform Encephalopathy (TSE) Epidemic in North America, (1.6
>MB)

>http://216.128.67.116/pdf/cattledeaths_tse_epidemic.pdf

>On why the bodies are left ...

<snip>

Stephen,

I have now read the NIDS report and you do a fine job of
precising the main points. A few observations.

I don't believe it's equitable in this issue to just address the
"What's happened" and to blatantly leave out the "who dunnit".
I'm not for one minute rejecting their paper or hypothesis and
would in fact suggest that it is probably the most authoritative
opinion ever put forward on this subject. And given NIDS
standards, they may have felt they had no reliable evidence to
complete the whole picture. Nevertheless, it is disappointing
that they could not have gone further.

They do "teeter" a bit, don't they? I mean by that they do get
very close to the edge. There's a few things thrown in there to
give hope to those who believe in a extraterrestrial dimension
to this. The March 10th.1997 incident in NE Utah (the one I
believe Eleanor White was referring to in her post) was truly
weird and has an extremely High Strangeness aspect. Also,
pinpointing Soccorro (at the northern end of White Sands) and
Dulce of all places as high intensity mutilation spots, well
away from the core centre of these incidents, only adds fuel to
the fire (I'm just popping upstairs for a bite deer!).

I notice that they comment that taking samples from the tonsils
of live elk for these diseases will lead to an increase in false
negatives. They don't explain how or why but imply that in
order for these tests to be conclusive, the animal must be
killed. Are you in a position to clarify this?

They remove the American government from complicity, which I'm
fine with. So the carcasses are left as a warning? By the
Alzheimers Support Group? By disaffected cattlemen? But the
moment the Argentineans get involved, the "troop" moves down
there and the pattern repeats. So it sounds like a freelance
lot, hiring out their expertise. Can I put you on the spot and
ask if you have any opinion yourself on whom might be carrying
out these acts?


Stuart Miller








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               Asking Jesus For Internvention Stops Abductions

From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:06:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:22:09 -0500
Subject: Asking Jesus For Internvention Stops Abductions



Hi -

The item below outlines the experiences of some UFO abductees
who successfully aborted their abductions by praying to Jesus
Christ for intervention. This is consistent with the book "How
to Defend Yourself Against Alien Abduction", by Ann Druffel,
which I'm currently reading.

What I find very interesting are the few UFO contactees who
report that the aliens encourage prayer. This could mean that
the aliens are well aware of God and see themselves as
accountable to God as well. Perhaps that is why the "Appeal to
spiritual personages" method described in Ms. Druffel's book
works. Here below is the forwarded email item.


Eleanor White

------- Forwarded message follows -------
Date sent:      Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:07:12 -0500
Subject:        [ThePowerHour] Spiritual warfare? Some look to Bible for
answers to alien abductions.



Courtesy of Florida Today
(from the archives)

August 17, 1997

Spiritual warfare? Some look to Bible for answers to alien
abductions.

Excerpts:

Joe Jordan is addressing a "New Millenium Symposium" in
Titusville. Jordan, who works in product development and
engineering for Sea Ray Boats, speaks calmly, his voice firm,
with good grammar and diction. Kooks don't get to be state
directors with science-oriented MUFON, for whom he has chased
lights for seven years. Last year he focused on CE-4 research,
and encountered a Central Florida abductee whose otherwise-
typical experience had one unique aspect. "They had stopped the
experience while it was happening. In all the time I've been
researching, I'd never heard that before."

Relentless anonymity is a given in abduction research. Nobody in
their right mind wants family, friends and co-workers to know
they've had their personal space violated against their will by
strange-looking creatures whose existence isn't even proven.

So they can't give names. But Jordan and Clark swear they have
three verifiable cases in which apparent abduction experiences
were halted by believers who called on the name of Jesus. And
Jordan says as many as 400 cases may be documentable nationwide.

"It makes you wonder: If these beings are extra-terrestrial at
all, why would they respond to that name?" Jordan asks. "We
think we found the answer in the Bible, in Mark 16:17 where
Jesus said, `In my name, they shall cast out demons.' That seems
to be exactly what we came across."

An estimated 40 percent of Americans say they believe aliens
have visited Earth. Even Jewish believers are connecting UFO
experiences with the Torah, or Jewish Bible. "Many serious
people who have been studying UFOs around the world have reached
the consensus that the Bible is a convincing UFO story," said
journalist Barry Charnish, quoted in a chapter titled "UFOs in
the Holy Land" from "Sightings: UFOs", by television writer
Susan Michaels.

McGuire cites the evolution of popular New Age author Whitley
Streiber's interests - from his first alien contacts in
"Communion", "Transformation" and "Breakthrough" to his latest
titles, "The Secret School: Preparations for Contact" and
"Evenings with Demons" - as an example of a progressive
deception. Indeed, Streiber fans often comment - albeit
positively - on their favorite author's change. From
experiencing his first alien encounters as terrifying and
torturous, he began to seek them out and welcome them, finally
advocating them as a religious experience.

That, say religious leaders, indicates a deceptive entity is at
work.

"Both the seemingly benign and the hostile entities ... will
play an increasing role in preparing a segment of humanity for
the reception of the Antichrist," writes bestselling author
David Allen Lewis and Robert Shreckhise in "UFO End-Time
Delusion."

"The Agenda, The Real Reason They're Here" gives this premise:
"In the near future, God will evacuate millions of people from
the horrors to follow. Aliens will take the credit" for the
Rapture (when Christians will be supernaturally airlifted to
heaven), writes B. Fox, a MUFON researcher who resides in-of all
places-Roswell, New Mexico.

"The one thing we can offer people in this field, that nobody
else elsewhere is offering, is hope. Hope that they can stop
this experience," Jordan says.

"We're still researchers. It's not conclusive. But this is what
we have so far."

Complete article:

http://www.floridatoday.com/space/explore/stories/1997b/081797b.htm








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                 Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 15:45:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:32:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Maccabee


>From: John Harney >magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 19:42:18 -0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 16:10:19 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>snip>

>>>The Navy's secret service interviewed 48 witnesses, including
>>>sailors, corporals, sergeants, three officers and admiral Paulo
>>>Moreira da Silva - the highest-rank officer among the militaries
>>>to have seen the UFO. In one of the meetings attended by
>>>Barauna, several photographs of UFOs were laid on a table,
>>>brought from other countries and belonging to the Navy's files.
>>>Among them, Barauna's shots had been included.

>>>The witnesses, including admiral Moreira da Silva, were asked to
>>>identify the craft that had been sighted over Trindade. Only one
>>>sailor misidentified the object, selecting a flying saucer that
>>>had been photographed by the Argentine Navy in Baia Blanca.>

>>>Within the premises, Barauna was able to verify the existence of
>>>a UFO photograph that had been taken by a sergeant. It had been
>>>registered by a slow-speed "box camera", and it was the first
>>>unidentified object seen over Trindade Island, a few months
>>>before the Almirante Saldanha's experience.

<snip>

I once had a physics professor who said something like, no
question is a stupid question., Well, strictly true: a question
is a question. But what about the mental ability of the person
who poses the question?

>However, I am informed that work on the photographs and the
>questions about witnesses (positive or negative) is continuing,
>so I'll be brief. Petit's account of what Barauna told him does
>not add anything except confusion.

It seems to me that the only real complaint Harney might have is
that, once again, only Baruna is the first-hand source of
information. Everything Baruna says is "hearsay". Harney's other
compaints about the testimony actually may increase the
liklihood that the story Baruna told is true.

>It seems incredible that when
>Barauna was trying to take his photos he was impeded by the
>sailors "frantically running about the ship's deck". Really! Was
>that the state of discipline in the Brazilian Navy in the 1950s?
>What a rabble, eh? Or is it possible that Barauna was grossly
>exaggerating for dramatic (or comic?) effect?

I suppose Harney has no understanding of the possible excitement
that could occur upon the realization that a really strange
object was flying by. Certainly sailors could have been running
about the deck and jostling for viewing position without regard
for someone trying to take pictures. And Baruna, one may
imagine, was trying to site through the lens apparatus and not
simply trying to avoid being bumped by sailors.

>Not only that, but when he has got his pictures, the captain
>orders him to develop the film, after he has finished "trembling
>all over", despite the fact that, in the disused laboratory the
>developing tank is broken and the developer and fixer are
>apparently well past their sell-by dates. So why was the captain
>apparently prepared to risk having the film ruined instead of
>having it developed ashore, as was presumably done with all
>other films taken on the voyage? Was he a bit simple, or
something?

This part of the story, although seemingly "illogical" (and
therefore made up?), could indicate that in the heat of the
moment the Captain wanted to know immediately what had happened.
I suppose the Baruna could have told that captain that there
were problems but that he thought he could develop the film with
what was available. We don't know, but I could imagine Baruna
trying first to develop some other picture to find out if the
chemicals were good enough.

>Meanwhile - to add to the element of farce - men were "waiting
>anxiously" and some were "carrying magnifying glasses" in the
>hope of examining the negatives. So it seems that, (if we
>believe the accounts) although Brazilian sailors of the period
>tended to panic when anything unusual happened, at least they
>didn't forget to carry their magnifying glasses with them at all
>times.

This appears as an exaggeration.... but the implication that
there were lots of men carrying magnifying glasses could be in
the mind of the reader and not what Baruna meant to imply. As
little as two men with magnifying glasses would be "men with
magnifying glasses"... and, of course, they could have passed
the glassses around to those who wanted to look. The main point
here seems consistent with the event: there were "men" who
wanted to see if the cameraman got pictures that agreed with
what they saw.


>And that's not all. When Barauna got the negatives to his
>private laboratory, he decided to experiment with an enhancement
>technique, so he "worked first with the least important
>negative, the one that shows the UFO at a longer distance". Why
>didn't he use one that didn't show the UFO at all, which would
>be even less important?

Who knows why he didn't? Does the fact that he claimed to have
tested the photo with the most distant image "prove" that he
faked the photos... (They were fakes so it wouldn't matter what
he did to them; but if they were fakes, why weren't they
perfect? And if they were fakes why did the Captain want to have
them developed on board? Was BAruna lucky enough to have faked
what supposedly many men saw fly past the ship?)








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   Dec > Dec 9

                              Re: Carlos Diaz?

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 11:02:21 -0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:39:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Carlos Diaz?


Dear Friends

I need a little article (note) published in the magazine Mas
Alla of Spain (I think two years ago) talking about the fake of
Carlos Diaz photos and v=EDdeos. He confessed the hoax.

Can anyone help me?

Regards









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              Re: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Scherk

From: William Scott Scherk <wss@uniserve.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 07:18:42 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:56:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Scherk


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:20:15 -0600
>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>From: William Scott Scherk <wss@uniserve.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:28:54 -0800
>>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>The camp that asserts an alien UFO crash at Roswell is the
>>majority, dominates TV programming, radio broadcasts, web
>>sites and newsletter publications. This camp produces and
>>sells the most books, tapes and videos, attracts the most
>>tourists to its 'crash sites,' and the most attenders to its
>>conferences.

>What a load of crap.

Well, so you say, but my statement stands. I cited two public
opinion polls that show the belief in an alien/UFO crash at
Roswell is held by a majority of Americans. Moreover, a majority
believes that the US government is covering up information on
this issue.

You haven't really offered any comment on those facts, so I
wonder how you would would counter my idea that a great deal of
alien/UFO crash/coverup material is peddled. For example, there
are at least five videos/DVDs on sale that give the alien/UFO
crash/coverup point of view on Roswell.

Is there a skeptical DVD on the subject?

On the same topic, there are some 350 books on Roswell (as
listed on Amazon.com). How many are skeptical? I counted seven.

Which is the bestseller of these 350? Well, it seems to be
Philip Corso's "The day after Roswell (rank 18,872).

Way down the List is the highest-selling Philip J Klass book,
with a rank of 261,376. Lower down is the book by Saler, Zeigler
and Charles M Moore. Its rank? 244,200.

What is the highest rank of any of the skeptical books? It seems
to be the Korff volume, "The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't
Want You to Know," with a rank of 85,049.

>I can attest, as an author of UFO books and friend or
>acquaintance of other writers in the field, that there's no
>money in it, the self-serving debunker mythologies aside.

Dr Clark, self-serving mythologies to one side, one of your
encyclopedias (on cryptozoology) currently sits at 18,872 in the
Amazon rankings.

>In my next life, in fact, I am going to be a professional
>skeptic and ride the gravy train engineered by CSICOP, whose
>budget surely surpasses that of all pro-anomaly groups in
>America combined, with plenty of green stuff to spare.

>>There is Science Frontiers, X-Project, Fortean Times,
>>Strange Magazine, Parascope News, Journal of Scientific
>>Exploration, FATE magazine, The Anomalist, Narratives of the
>>Weird . . . And umpteen thousands of websites and mailing
>>lists.

>Not a single organization interested in anomalies and the
>paranormal from a favorable or open-minded perspective can
>claim a fraction of the money CSICOP possesses.

I don't know this. How do you know? How do you support his
assertion?

Fate magazine, for example, has a sales ranking of 1,170.
Skeptical Inquirer has a ranking of 1,071.

If SI has much more money than than that of FATE (as you seem to
imply), how do they get it? Does FATE accept advertising?

>Nor do proponents or the open-minded have a fraction of the
>influence CSICOP and the elite media (which virtually never
>cover issues concerning anomalies from a favorable or even
>neutral perspective) have on the thinking of all those in a
>position to encourage, sponsor, or fund research into >ufology,
cryptozoology, or parapsychology.

How do you know this? In any case, what is the 'elite media'?

Additionally, you broaden the remit of my comments to
encouraging, sponsoring or funding research. Does CSICOP fund
research? Can you name some CSICOP-funded research?

>As an officer of CUFOS, I can speak personally to the all-
>but-nonexistent resources going to serious UFO research - as
>opposed to the abundant cash and support that flow, in an
>unending stream, toward professional debunking groups which
>tell elites what they want to hear.

I would like to know more about this unending stream of cash to
professional debunking groups. Which are the professional
debunking groups, in your estimation?


William Scott Scherk
www.wsse.ca








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   Dec > Dec 9

                      CFI FOIA Suit Filed Against NASA

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:25:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:59:12 -0500
Subject: CFI FOIA Suit Filed Against NASA


Group Files Lawsuit Against NASA

Coalition for Freedom of Information Seeks NASA Records of
Mysterious 1965 Pennsylvania UFO Incident

Litigation Supported by Clinton Former Chief of Staff John
Podesta

Washington, D.C. - On the eve of President Bush's expected
announcement about a new initiative with NASA, the Coalition for
Freedom of Information (CFi) with support from SCI FI Channel
today announced the filing of a lawsuit against the space agency
in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia.  The filing
comes as a result of the government agency's refusal to release
its records concerning the 1965 UFO incident near Kecksburg, PA.
Today is the 38th anniversary of the incident.

"Our lawsuit is aimed at getting NASA to tell the public what it
knew and when it knew it," said Ed Rothschild, Executive
Director of CFi.

The lawsuit against NASA is the first of several against
government agencies, including the U.S. Army, U.S. Air Force and
the Department of Defense, which have been stonewalling efforts
to obtain records on the Kecksburg incident under the Freedom of
Information Act.  John Podesta, former Chief of Staff for
President Clinton and member of the 1997 Moynihan Commission on
Protecting and Reducing Government Secrecy, supports the effort
stating that the public has a right to know and that the
government should disclose what happened in Kecksburg.

"Although NASA has released 36 pages of documents, none of those
documents pertain to any investigation of the incident by NASA
or to related projects within the agency that could shed light
on the Kecksburg incident," said Lee Helfrich of Lobel, Novins
and Lamont, the Washington attorney filing the suit.

"Furthermore," said Helfrich, "Leslie Kean, Director of
Investigations for CFi, clearly demonstrated that NASA has
documents responsive to the specific requests she made in  CFi's
Freedom of Information Act request, but NASA has failed for
nearly a year to produce any relevant documents."

On December 9, 1965, witnesses in and near Kecksburg described
seeing a fireball in the evening sky, a controlled landing and
the systematic military recovery of an object. As reported by
local radio and newspapers, U.S. military personnel cordoned off
the area, investigated the site, and left without ever providing
a full report of the incident other than to dismiss it as a
meteor.

A year ago, SCI FI Channel and the CFi initiated an effort to
obtain classified and other government documents on the
Kecksburg crash.

"Since last year, we have supported archivists, researchers and
scientists, as well as partnered with investigative reporter
Leslie Kean and attorney Lee Helfrich in order to obtain NASA's
records in this nearly 40-year old case," said Bonnie Hammer,
SCI FI Channel President.

"Now, one year later, despite our serious effort to uncover the
facts, NASA still refuses to provide the public with any
information," said Hammer. "That is why, today, we are
supporting CFi's lawsuit. We are hopeful that our legal system
will help us find out what really happened in the woods outside
Kecksburg."

As Podesta stated in SCI FI Channel's Kecksburg documentary,
"Certainly having the military descend on a United States town,
holding people at gunpoint, is not the ordinary way we do
business in this country.  People should have an explanation
about what triggered that sort of military response...so that
people can judge for themselves whether it was appropriate."

"The public has a right to know what happened in Kecksburg,"
concluded Kean. "Government agencies have an obligation to make
public what they know. Instead of a willingness to open up files
that rightfully belong to the American people, government
bureaucrats are making it as difficult and time-consuming as
they can to uncover the facts. We will persevere until we get
answers."

In addition to broadcasting landmark documentary programming,
the SCI FI Channel is currently lobbying Congress to gain
support for more scientific inquiry into these issues.  It will
premiere UFO INVASION AT RENDLESHAM, hosted by Bryant Gumbel, on
December 12, a new two-hour special that exposes one of the most
notorious UFO incidents of the 20th century.

#     #     #

Additional information on the Kecksburg incident and the latest
on the lawsuit, can be found at: www.freedomofinfo.org.







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                Re: PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - 12-07-03 -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:42:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:29:15 -0500
Subject: Re: PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - 12-07-03 -


>From: Stephen Bassett <Disclosure2003@aol.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 05:34:59 -0500
>Subject: PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - 12-07-03

>PRG
>Paradigm Research Group
>PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - December 7, 2003

>John Lear Briefing Scenario Redux

>Aviator and researcher, John Lear's, intriguing November 2
>appearance on Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell was rebroadcast on
>November 30. [Reminder: Stephen Bassett's response to John
>Lear's hypothetical scenario ("yes" or "no" to disclosure) is
>posted at: www.paradigmclock.com/paradigmarticlesindex.html ]

>Because the PRG server is down, this response is printed below:

>The John Lear Briefing Scenario: Why the Answer is "Yes."
>Stephen Bassett

>Washington, DC - On November 12, 2003, researcher and
>accomplished aviator, John Lear, appeared on Coast to Coast AM
>with Art Bell. John Lear is a most interesting man, and it was a
>most interesting evening.

>The son of the famous creator of the Lear Jet, William Lear,
>John is a former Lockheed L-1011 Captain. He has flown over 150
>test aircraft and has received every certification granted by
>the Federal Aviation Administration. He also holds 18 world
>speed records and has worked for 28 different Aircraft
>Corporations. During the late 1960's, 1970's and early 1980's he
>was a contract pilot for the CIA.

It is my recollection that Bill Lear was a UFO witness back in
the 50's. I could be wrong on this... anyone out there recall
specifically yea or nea?

>From 1985 to 1992 John plunged into a personal investigation of
>extraterrestrial related phenomena. He was a friend of Robert
>Lazar and was on hand when Lazar broke with his Area 51 employer
>and began speaking out about extraordinary craft of possible
>extraterrestrial origin being worked on at that facility.

>After seven years of research Lear stepped back from the fray
>admitting he was frustrated and burned out. He had paid a heavy
>price for his efforts, losing two jobs and receiving various
>intimidation. His research was conducted during the last years
>of the Cold War, when the United States government was fully
>intent on maintaining the "cover-up," and few insiders were
>breaking ranks. Lear went public with his overall findings and
>then withdrew from the field and the limelight. The legacy of
>Lear's work lived on in mail lists and websites. Eleven years
>passed. Then he turned up on Art Bell with a message.

>The message was in the form of a question and has come to be
>referred to as the John Lear Briefing Scenario. It has been
>circulated extensively on the Internet.

<snip>

>There are many scenarios. Just about every researcher has one -
>a well intentioned effort to describe the "big picture." It's
>irresistible. You draw on everything you have heard, read and
>seen, and much of it is secondhand.

>To be fair, in John Lear's posited scenario you are asked to
>assume the information to be absolutely true, then make your
>decision. This is fine for the purpose of a thought experiment.
>In the non-experimental, real world it is not practical. In
>making a decision of such magnitude the truth or falsity of the
>information is of no small importance.

Your comments are based on the assumption that Lear's claims are
true. Problem is... who is going to judge as to whether or not
they are true?

So far as I know he has no proof and only references to
"sources."

<snip>

(too many things to comment on)_ Assume the following is true(?)

>[Lear] Abductions occur on a daily basis throughout the United
>States to at least 10% of the population.

>[Bassett] The 10% figure would raise some eyebrows,

more than eyebrows!

We heard the following long before Lear. Any proof? (Oh, year,
Eisenhower was "sprited away" from everyone to go to a dental
appointment, was it?)

>[Lear] In 1954, President Eisenhower met with a representative
>of another alien species at Muroc Test Center, which is now
>called Edwards Air Force Base. This alien suggested that they
>could help us get rid of the Grays but Eisenhower turned down
>their offer because they offered no technology.

<snip>

>[Lear] This so unnerved Eisenhower that he had "In God We Trust"
>put on paper money and coins and put in the Pledge of Allegiance
>to reaffirm the public belief in God.

Anyone track the known history of "In God We Trust?", etc.?

>Shortly after this it was
>determined in meetings between the US and the Russians that the
>situation was serious enough that a cold war should be
>manufactured as a ruse to divert attention of the public away
>from UFOs towards some other scary threat like the H-bomb. It
>was also decided to keep the ruse secret from any elected or
>appointed official to vet these officials and the ruse was
>easier to manage if the top people didn't know about it.

Seems to me the "cold war" was already underway, having really
heated up about the time of the Berlin Airlift and the explosion
of the first USSR A bomb.

>[Lear] In the late 1950's NASA was formed to compartmentalize,
>containerize, and sanitize information from all space platforms
>and vehicles. We sold NASA to the public claiming that all
i>nformation would belong to them but they got very little and
>even that was highly sanitized.

>[Bassett] The dilemma and corruption of NASA is being dissected
>on several hundred websites. Again, only disclosure will open
t>he door to reforming this agency.

>[Lear] Our first efforts were to keep the public from learning
>about Venus. A very similar planet to Earth and it's population
>is very similar to us and just as technologically advanced. We
>have learned a lot from them. Starting with the Russian Venera
>1 and US Mariner 2, we made Venus look like a lead melting,
>volcanic surface, spewing sulfuric acid into a pressurized
>atmosphere 90 times that of Earth. And as often the case we
>overdid it, and we wondered why nobody asked how a parachute
>survived a descent into 800-degree air.

What??? No we're out of bounds. Venus as a "hot place" was
accepted scientifically long before NASA and probably before
UFOs. Anyway, the idea that Venus has a "population ...similar
to us"... has absolutely no scientific support. And I really
doubt that the Russians launched Venera 1 and 2 with to cover up
Venus' "similar population". (I presume Lear is implying, here,
that at least some AFC (Alien Flying Craft) come from Venus.
Wonder where he might have gotten that idea. Adamski and others
perhaps?)

>[Bassett] Certainly, present life on another planet would be
>profoundly exciting. But given the 25-year public interest in
>Mars artifacts, a populated Venus might be anticlimactic.

This suggestion makes no sense. If actual creatures like us were
discovered on Venus (how would we discover them... their TV
signals, perhaps) it would cause the greatest upheaval in
civilization that we could imagine, especially considering all
the other things Lear has attributed to the aliens, such as
abductions and mutilations..)

I could offer comments after comments on this... but ... so many
emails... so little time... I won't lose any sleep over what
Lear has had to say.....








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   Dec > Dec 9

                    Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:43:17 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:13:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Fleming


>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 22:16:06 +0000
>Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions - Jones

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:48:19 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Ufology - Ten Questions

>>On the contrary sir, you do have enough evidence.

>Any physical evidence, verified by accredited & un-biased
>scientists?

There is a large amount of ground trace, radar, and of course
photographic evidence (also physical) that you could say has
been verified by accredited scientists. The problem is that as
soon as a scientist verifies any of it, he is no longer
considered "unbiased" by so-called skeptics.

>>Criminals are often convicted just on the basis of witness
>>testimony alone.

>Really? Not in this country that I am aware of. Perhaps you
>could cite me a case or two? Witness testimony as far as I am
>aware, (and I am really ready to be proved wrong for the sake of
>ufology) has never been enough on it's own to make a conviction
>without supporting evidence.

You mean supporting evidence like radar, ground-trace, and
photographic evidence? See above.

>For I am _damn_ certain if it was then Ufology would be _far_
>more credible in the eyes of Joe Q Public.

I thought the complaint of "skeptics" was that John Q. Public
found the evidence _too_ credible for their liking. Opinion
polls consistently have shown that's the case.








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                     Re: Congress and Disclosure - Knize

From: Francis Knize <Frankknee@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:33:10 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:02:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure - Knize


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
>Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 09:31:21 -0600
>Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 11:04:49 -0500
>Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure - Fleming

EXCERPT:

>In any case, I think the only faint hope for a disclosure in our
>lifetime is through the Fourth Estate -- the news media. That's
>why I'm somewhat encouraged by the Sci-Fi channel's Freedom
>of Information project. But I wonder how far it will get before the
>corporation that owns the channel decides that it's not in their
>best interests to sponsor disclosure efforts and force the
>channel to concentrate strictly on science fiction and fantasy
>programming. END

Lan,

As said by Larry Warren at the Disclosure Project, National
Press Club, Washington, " The UFO issue of is really a civil
rights issue." That is why the marriage of legal actions and
television productions is the perfect exercise in maintaining
precious American civil liberties for freedom of speech, and a
liberty and right to know (of the great mysteries before the
human race).

The Sci-fi Channel will protect its interest once they establish
their new trend and their viewers make their show of support,
for which then advertisers will get on the bandwagon increasing
the profits for the network. If the network is making money, it
would be very difficult to deny programming. Since the majority
of Americans have at least some interest in this topic, we can
bet that as the Sci-fi Channel's coverage of their lawsuit
expands the public will indeed follow the proceedings very
intently.

The momentum will not be lost if concrete evidence or
documentation can arise out of the proceedings. As well, the
public will learn about how most of the documentation, two full
boxes, were lost. The public will  conclude a pattern of
stonewalling by NASA and other agencies. This helps to build the
foundation of evidence. Evidence is often found in the trail of
a coverup, and this becomes dramatic material for a television
audience. Networks like CourtTV have become very profitable, the
message being people like watching legal programming. UFO
politics brings legal programming to yet another level. We all
will be watching.

Reality Television is coming-of-age. this is a fantastic trend
in media where the citizen or citizens group can participate.
Reality Television will evolve to cover more significant issues
of our time, that is my prediction.

I have been asking you, Lan, for quite some time to be one of
these good American citizens and to present a case for which the
public may conduct a Data Quality Act inquiry based on plausible
foundation, and which only a researcher like you could provide.
You kick and scream in countless e-mails on many lists how you
would like to see fairer process involved in scientific
discovery. I am providing you with suggestions how you can be
truly important in this process.I feel you should become more
involved with the media and real-time events (more than just
publishing on the Internet) You speak of worries that the media
will overshadow investigations and disclosure. well then, I
challenge you to put it to the test and give it your best shot.

Choose one good Data Quality Act inquiry to pursue based on your
best research concerning Mars photographic anomalies. There are
many now in NASA  who would support an honest effort for SETI
Research.  Attitudes are now changing within the agency. I do
not believe you ever be harassed at the Johnson Space Center for
a Data Quality Act inquiry.  This is not a bona fide lawsuit, it
is merely a platform for which to question data  and give data
integrity. This will not harm NASA but will in fact enhance the
scientific stature of the agency.

I do hope you respond to these ideas.


Very Truly Yours,

Francis C. P. Knize
Producer










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              Re: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003 -

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:55:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:27:22 -0500
Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003 -


>From: Steven Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 11:37:30 EST
>Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003

>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:41:47 -0500
>>Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003

>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 08:41:47 -0500
>>Subject: Re: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003

>>>From: Stephen G. Bassett <Disclosure2003@aol.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 02:51:06 -0500
>>>Subject: PRG/X-Conference Update - December 1, 2003

>>>PRG
>>>Paradigm Research Group
>>>Update - December 1, 2003

>>>The X-Conference
>>>www.x-conference.com

>>>PRG is pleased to announce the addition of Dr. Robert Wood, Ryan
>>>Wood and Peter Robbins to the speaker platform. There is now a
>>>full contingent of 22 presenters with the Key Note speaker and
>>>additional panel discussion participants to be selected early in
>>>2004.

>>Hello Stephen,

>>You continue to fail to address the legitimate questions I am
>>posing to you regarding the hiring of Greer to speak at your
>>upcoming UFO conference. I am re-posting my inquiry to you in
>>hopes that you will take the time to address what are legitimate
>>points, questions and concerns that I have raised in regard to
>>Steven Greer.

Hello Stephen, hi All,

Stephen Bassett responds to my legitimate questions about why he
has hired Greer to be a speaker at his upcoming UFO conference
in Washington DC thusly:

>John,

>Address your criticisms of Steven Greer to Steven Greer.

You're kidding right?

Ya know, for somebody who only uses this List to plug your own
self-serving agendas, you've got a lot of nerve blowing me off
this way. In fact, how dare you?

First off...

_You_ are the one who is actively promoting and publicly
supporting a ufological pariah like Steven Greer by setting him
up as a speaker at a public UFO conference, not me. All I did
was ask you why, knowing what we all know about Greer, do you
support him and legitimize him by hiring him to be a speaker at
this conference you are mounting.

Secondly...

You imply with your dismissive one sentence reply that I am
talking to the wrong person here. I've got news for you, _years_
before you joined this List, I told Steven Greer (to his face)
everything I have mentioned about him in my recent posts to this
List. There is a history here with a long grey beard that you
are obviously not aware of. I've said _everything_ that I have
to say, directly to that condescending, egomaniac Greer man to
man, face to face.

I have tracked down some of the old posts and I will publish
them on this List so that you and anyone else who may be
interested can read them and make up their own minds about it
all.

But I digress...

It is _you_ who have apparently missed the point here. I'm not
talking to Greer. I'm not 'asking him' anything. Been dere, done
dat. I am talking to _you_ Stephen.

I am asking these questions about Greer's track record of _you_.
And why you? Because I have to know how you can in good
conscience justify hiring this guy to speak at _any_ UFO-related
conference after all we know about him. It's a legit and valid
set of questions. All you can do in response apparently is to
'blow me off' rather than deal with the substance of the points
I have raised.

BTW, just so you know it isn't strictly about Greer, I'd be
asking you these same questions if you had hired William Cooper
or Sean David Morton to speak at your conference. Actually, I'm
being a 'good boy' and I'm not getting on your case about hiring
that Nostradamus wannabee Richard Hoagland, who predicted the
landing of a mothership in Arizona that never happened, nor have
I mentioned anything at all about all this Lear/Bell/Lazar
manure that you've been 'spreading around' lately. No, I
restricted my questions to why you hired Greer. And you can't
even handle that! Is it that you already know you can't make a
convincing case for hiring Greer as a speaker at this
conference?

I'm not presuming to speak as the List moderator here but, if
you cannot respond to the legitmate questions of a UFO UpDates
List member when they are asked, next time you need to
"advertise" something for free, (ie'this upcoming conference,
your 'Paradigm Clock' -whatever the hell that is- or X-PAC) why
don't you use whatever List it is you actually participate in -
 instead of this one.

Blow me off eh? All I can say to that is; Later for you.


Most sincerely,

John Velez








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                        Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:22:08 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:08:07 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Shell


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 18:03:31 -0000
>Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets'

>They remove the American government from complicity, which I'm
>fine with. So the carcasses are left as a warning? By the
>Alzheimers Support Group? By disaffected cattlemen?

If I was with the military, I would leave the cattle because if
a cow goes missing it could be interpreted as a theft, and draw
more unwanted interest from state and local law enforcement. And
nine times out of ten it will simply be chalked up to predation.
Besides, cows are big and quite a chore to move, so why bother
with it when you have all the parts you're interested in?

On the other hand, if I was an alien, on a practical level,
maybe my ship isn't big enough to take the whole thing.

Here's another question, though. Whoever is taking them, why do
they need to take so much tissue? Why strip the whole skull, for
instance? Any lab worth its salt (alien or not) should be able
to do an adequate study with a fraction of the tissue taken.

Hey, maybe it is demons, after all.








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               Re: 1733 - The First Known Sighting? - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:51:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:11:33 -0500
Subject: Re: 1733 - The First Known Sighting? - Stanford


>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:52:22 -0200
>Subject: 1733 - The First Known Sighting?

>Source: The Scotsman, UK

>http://www.news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2271652

>On This Day - December 8

><snip>

>1733: A Dorset man reported seeing a polished silver disc in the
>sky the first known sighting of an Unidentified Flying Object,
>or UFO.

As any pelican whose ancestor was flying the Dorset sky on
December 8, 1733, can tell you by often-repeated oral tradition,
there was nothing extraordinary in the sky on that day. The
dorset man had simply been watching too many TV shows featuring
UFO reports and reading too many books by those wealthy pro-UFO
writers.

:)
Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery









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              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:05:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:13:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Velez


>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@msn.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 23:54:23 -0800
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution@sbcglobal.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 28 Aug 1956 03:09:16 -0800
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>It has been some time since I have posted to UpDates, but I just
>couldn't pass this one up. I don't intend to make a habit of
>posting, but here are a few things that you might want to see:

>http://www.rense.com/general45/stan.htm

>http://www.rense.com/general45/warn.htm

>The Stan Romanek case is another topic all together...


Hi Royce, All,

You wrote:

>As for Maussan having credibility as a jouranlist/investigator,
>it is my opinion he is just one more in a lump of UFO clowns
>that rehash other people's material and make sensationalist and
>unverifiable claims.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, is 100% spot-on all the time Royce.
You have to be very careful about completely dismissing Maussan
because more than most of those categorized as 'bad-guys,' it is
a genuine instance of throwing out the baby with the bath-water
in his case.

You said so yourself, Maussan has some _legitimate_ footage and
has gathered information on some _legitimate_ UFO cases. An
example of which is the one I am currently working with him on,
an commercial aircraft and a 'UFO' collision case that happened
back in '94 at Mexico City International. The reporting
witnesses in that case are the commercial pilot of the plane and
the ATC (air traffic controller) who had to quickly arrange for
an emergency landing of that passenger laden jet.

Maussan is not by any stretch of the imagination a scientist or
a trained/skilled researcher. It's unfair to hold him to those
strict standards. What needs to be done with someone like Jaime
Maussan is to evaluate the merits of each case he presents one
at a time. Maussan is a channel for a ton of raw data. Some of
it solid gold. That's why it's dangerous to label him a 'clown'
and dismiss him completely. Again, he's not a scientist. I don't
expect the same level of 'competence' from him as I would a
bona-fide scientific researcher,

Jaime needs to be taken on a case by case basis. Otherwise we
run the risk of blowing right past some of the most amazing UFO
cases ever to hit the blotter. Try not to be so down on the man.
You know me Royce. Believe me, I have spent some time speaking
with this guy. He's not the evil phony or clown that you paint
him to be. I consider myself a decent judge of character and
Jaime is -honest- if not 'right' all the time.

>While Maussan may have some legitimate UFO footage, it has been
>drowned out by his past antics, claims, and sensationalistic
>promotion of bunk UFO cases.

Get past the noise. In Maussan's case it is worth it. It is in
fact one of the few times that I have found this to be the case.
Dismiss Maussan and you risk blowing off some of the most -
credible- material to come down the pike in years!

My very best to you for the holiday season.


Your friend as always,

John Velez







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             Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:12:55 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:14:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Lehmberg


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:23:37 -0000
>Subject: Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown"

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 10:23:34 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown"

>Alfred wrote a very long post again. As he has nothing new to
>say I'm not going to waste listspace in going over the same
>ground yet again. However, there are two parts of his nonsense I
>will respond to:

Nothing here... Mr. Robert's would have done well to make _no_
response, it seems.

>>Right... We can stop right here, actually. The first to get mad,
>>get cute, or tender an insult has lost the argument. You're
>>breathing, heavily, on all three.

>I didn't realise we were arguing Alfred - I'm just amusing
>myself whilst listening to the Grateful Dead. Your response,
>however, is most illuminating and tells us much about you. As I
>said at the end of a previous post, easy Alfred, easy.

Nothing here, either... Mr. Roberts oozes the usual pedantic and
patronising (read empty!) smarmyness.

>>Set me aright, sir. I'd
>>like to 'understand', and as I'm representative of persons
>>expected to buy your books (or extend you idiosyncratic credit),
>>it seems it's in your best interest to help me do just that.

>I'm afraid that's where your entirely wrong Alfred. I have no
>wish for you to read my books at all. You or any ufologist who
>clearly can't think clearly. My books etc. are written more for
>the general public, and for serious ufologists, who haven't been
>warped by listening to people such as yourself, who, as I've
>said before, are keen to offer comment but much less keen to
>produce work of lasting relevance to the subject.

Arrogant, elitist, and huffy, but nothing, still. Mr. Roberts
busys himself with the bland insults and the worried
protestations of the schoolyard scold. Nothing but cheap usenet
flatware on _his_ table, it would appear.

>Now, as I said to Stuart M, go away and don't appear in my mail
>box again until you have something useful - and concise - to
>say!

You could abandon ufology and cyberspace... sir, that will
handily solve your mailbox difficulties, and I trust this was
concise enough for you?

>Happy Trails

I'd call it a trail of tears...

But re-establishing focus (something I'm sure you're loath to
do, Mr Roberts?), Mr. Burns sent me the latest copy of "Notes
from the Borderland" and the very readable and cogent piece is a
whale of a tale in about eleven thousand words and 57 citations.
 I'd written a previous piece from a draft of Mr. Burns article,
and the final copy had a _lot_ more focus. Very interesting
reading, again, dismissed (very predictably by the lovely Mr.
Roberts) as a paranoid rant... It seemed a bit more than that to
_this_ reader...

In "The Usual Suspects," Mr. Burns iterates how Mr. Andy Roberts
(et. al.) works to suppress information at its source and how he
gets a false story accepted. Burns underscores methods used to
undermine witnesses. Burns goes on to show how UFO research is
attacked directly, how the researcher is attacked in a similar
fashion, and how communication is suppressed to facilitate these
attacks...

Mr. Burns is elequent with regard to witness intimidation and
how that process (of isolating individuals open to different
ideas) works. He chronicles the process of "hoaxing to order"
to facilitate hidden agendas and how hypocracy is used to
destroy the independance (and efficacious interdependance) of
others. All in all a pretty damning account, Mr. Roberts, given
that he's published in a periodical of _some_ respect... (at
least you haven't yet thought to to try to destroy the
reputation of that periodical too), and has provided almost 60
citations to support his contention.

All we have from you are dime store insults, sweeping
proclamations of portentous paucity, and wan pontifications
(like your last paragraph above... jaw dropping example!).
Alternately we're treated with empty posts of pompous impotence
via UFO UpDates (pardon me, not). Its no wonder that you won't
answer Mr. Burns challenge to a public debate... it's pretty
obvious you're all about _nothing_ and more comfortable standing
in your duplicitous and destructive shadows doing your 'work'
such that it is.....

In closing (and until you stick your head up over the berm
again) let me remind you publically that your pissy little
personal notes to me in E-mail are unwelcome, forgetting that
they don't have the effect on me you'd like to think they have.
I'm neither amused nor entertained. Indeed they only increase
my resolve to examine your professional malfeasence for the
record. Anything I have to say to you will be said in a public
forum, as I've told you.

I've been warned by others that this is a tactic that you (et
al) use to needle and intimidate and control... Forgetting for a
moment how pathetic and ineffective they are, at present they
only increase my desire to rip off your literary head and use
your bubbling throat for a field toilet. I hope I've been
abundantly clear. Thanks.

...Easy, indeed.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $450.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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                   Re: Drake Equation Naeye Sayer - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:56:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:25:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Drake Equation Naeye Sayer - Shell


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:43:36 -0600
>Subject: Drake Equation Naeye Sayer

>The first assertion about the 40-year record of near-total
>failure of orthodox SETI is an indisputable reality. The
>assertion about the evidence of ET craft is something that some
>people would say is highly debatable. It gets debated all the
>time on this List.

With all the talk in the astronomy field about "dark energy" and
how it supposedly comprises such a large percentage of stuff in
the universe, I wonder if it might have field properties of some
kind. Anybody know if the people studying dark energy have
figured out whether or not it could be modulated or in some
other way used for communication? Anybody? Anybody?

Then there's the anomalous information transmission stuff.
Whatever non-EM field that uses.

Still, just because we haven't found anything definitive yet is
no reason to stop looking. It's not like there's a time limit on
this research. We've been trying to communicate with the heavens
since day one. We're probably never going to stop, because you
can't prove a negative. You can't prove there's _not_ something
or someone out there.








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                 Re: There's A Hole In My Philosophy - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:22:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:30:05 -0500
Subject: Re: There's A Hole In My Philosophy - Hall


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:42:02 -0600
>Subject: Re: There's A Hole In My Philosophy

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 13:10:27 -0800
>>Subject: Re: There's A Hole In My Philosophy

>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 21:25:12 -0800
>>>Subject: There's A Hole In My Philosophy

>>>Below is a letter I sent to author Dr. David Grinspoon in
>>>repsonse to his article: "There's a Whole In My Philosphy,"
>>>which was posted at the Astrobilogy web-site:

>>In fairness to Mr. Grinspoon, here is his prompt reply to my
>>letter to him:

>While the repeated reference to "believers" in Grinspoon's
>article are annoying, as they always are, the general theme of
>the article seems to be constructive.

>However, Grinspoon may have been wrong when he assumed that no
>evidence has been found of footprints associated with UFO cases.
>There's at least one. According to Ray Stanford's book, there
>were two sets of footprints found at the Socorro landing site
>near the much deeper indentations that appeared to have been
>made by a heavy object. Maybe the "visitors" were so startled by
>Lonnie Zamora's appearance that they forgot to erase their
>tracks before leaving as required by the Prime Directive.

Listers,

You do not need to reference Ray Stanfoird's severely flawed
book about Socorro (as I have repeatedly said, his depiction of
me in it borders on libelous and is totally unfounded) to
document the "footprints". That is what they are called in the
Air Force file on the case. See The UFO Evidence , Vol. II, for
details.

 - Dick









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                Re: PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - 12-07-03 -

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 14:55:02 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:23:27 -0500
Subject: Re: PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - 12-07-03 -



>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:42:35 -0500
>Subject: Re: PRG 12/1/03 Update Addendum - 12-07-03

<snip>

>It is my recollection that Bill Lear was a UFO witness back in
>the 50's. I could be wrong on this... anyone out there recall
>specifically yea or nea?


Bruce,

William Lear did have a sighting in the early 1950s. I have a
recording of him talking about it in my archive.


Wendy Connors








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                Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:27:17 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:23:04 -0500
Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Rudiak


>From: William Scott Scherk <wss@uniserve.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:28:54 -0800
>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:31:24 -0800
>>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Rudiak

>>Lots of doubletalk from this Mr. Scherk - no? It is also
>>very interesting that he suddenly appears here on UpDates
>>for the first time the moment I accuse the SI of perhaps
>>engaging in a new coverup. Is he just a common net Troll
>>looking for a little attention?

To answer my own question, probably. We've all encountered these
types before on other chat groups. They are the hand grenade
throwers, the smart asses, the hecklers, the insulters, the
attackers, the harrassers, the character assassins, etc.

Mr. Scherk _pretends_ to be all reasonable here. He also wrote
me a superficiously civil email, politely asking for permission
to reprint my response to his first post to Updates. He even
signed off "kind regards."

So what's wrong with this picture? The problem is he was
simultaneously already savaging me over on his website. The
following (according to time stamps) was posted to his website
Dec. 6 only 3 hours after his phony polite email to me:

http://www.wsse.ca/nucleus2.0/index.php?blogid=1

----------------------

Saturday, December 06 2003
Are UFOs real, really really REALLY real? Rudiak v Moore

<......>

(Dr Rudiak responds to the "Smoking Gun article" with a letter
purportedly mailed to SI: Math Vs. Moore On Roswell

Of course, UFO-as-alien-craft believers don't accept this. There
is no particularly consistent story debunking the Mogul
explanation, however. Some believe in a massive, complex cover-
up, and others beleive that the Mogul explanation is a
perfidious hoax. One such person with a hoax hypothesis is Dave
Rudiak. Apparently much of his waking life is given over to
debunking the Mogul hypothesis . . . on the UFO updates mailing
list, his most recent posting gives some idea of the depth and
breadth of his theory, full of "hoax!" and "hoax!!!" and "HOAX
HOAX HOAX!!!!"

See: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Rudiak

I can't do justice to Dr Rudiak's arguments. One corner of the
internet is bulging with his output ("HOAX!!!"). The posting of
his linked above is in response to a few questions I posted.

Another response to my questions was that of one Alfred
Lehmberg.

Both make fascinating reading, if you ever wonder what the true-
believers sound like in full rant.

A sample of Lehmberg:
<......>

-- and from the demented Rudiak:
Since we are all nothing more than "UFO nutbags," in Mr.
Scherk's mind, this apparently justifies the Skeptical Inquirer
publishing anything they want that's "anti-UFO-nutbag," even if
it involves omission, distortion, defamation, and promotion of
an "anti-UFO-nutbag" hoax, all in the name of "science and
reason" of course.

(Rudiak had visited this blog and quoted from my earlier
'nutbag' post. Now I guess he thinks I am some kind of CSICOP
operative . . . )
17:46:25 - wss - No comments! - 0 TrackBacks

--------------------------------

Notice, among other things, that Scherk insinuates that I never
sent off a rebuttal to the Skeptical Inquirer (I "purportedly"
mailed it), and does it again below in his latest UpDates post.
I especially love his use of the word "demented" to describe me.
That was a real nice touch, but exactly what one would expect
from another of these phony-baloney defenders of "science and
reason."

This is Mr. Scherk in full bloom displaying his real personality
and agenda. There is nothing polite, sincere, or honest about
the man. I wrote a pretty damn nasty email back to him after
this, pointing out the obviously huge hypocritical disconnect
between his "polite" request for reprint rights and what he
already had written on his website. Scherk wrote back this
morning, playing the fool, as if nothing had ever happened. Only
seriously disturbed or coldly calculating people behave this
way.

Scherk has a long Net history of these sort of malignant
personal attacks, which frequently includes calling others
"demented." E.g., check out the following links:

http://www.napanet.net/~moiraj/wwwboard/messages/2373.html

http://www.wsse.ca/nucleus2.0/reason.php (see Nov. 26 and Nov 18)

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=demented+author:william+author:scott+author:sc
herk&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3812B79A.4006AB75%40netbistro.com&rnum=1

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=demented+author:william+author:scott+author:sc
herk&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=7dspkj%24civ%241%40nnrp1.dejanews.com&rnum
=2

http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=demented&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_u
authors=william%20scott%20scherk&lr=&hl=en

Etc., etc. Do a Google Usenet search for more.

We have all seen people like Scherk before prowling the
Internet, disrupting groups, and savaging people. They are
commonly called trolls. They are low-lifes who enjoy playing
games with people, hoping to get a rise out of them, or maybe
having darker, more sinister motivations. I leave it to the
psychologists to explain their inner demons.

>Or is he a shill for the
>CSICOP/Skeptical Inquirer, trying desperately to avoid
>publishing my rebuttal article? "Forget about it. Nobody
>reads us anyway."

Is he fronting for CSICOP? Who knows? As we shall also see
below, he obviously reads and frequently references the
Skeptical Inquirer, as his following recent debate with Kathy
Reason (who also sometimes posts here) demonstrates (concerns
lawsuit against recovered memory critics, psychologists
Elizabeth Loftus of CSICOP & Melvin Guyer):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evolutionary-psychology/message/26868
(Scherk no longer playing the fool)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evolutionary-psychology/message/26890
(Kathy Reason responds)

Loftus/Guyer are defended and Scherk blames the victim,
following exactly the tactic of the S.I. articles. (Loftus,
incidentally, is another one of the CSICOP "Fellows", so it was
a case of CSICOP defending their own again. For a list of their
"Fellows," see: http://www.csicop.org/about/fellows.html)

Also check out the Google Usenet archives, where Scherk makes
many references to S.I. articles. If not a CSICOP operative, he
is very obviously a CSICOP groupie.

This of course proves nothing. But isn't it interesting that
Scherk published his first trashing of UFO Updates (we're all
"nutbags") on Nov. 30, the very same day, practically the same
instant, as Updates reprinted Dennis Rawling's "sTARBABY" expose
of a cover-up by CSICOP in its early days.

Then on Dec. 3 was my "sTARBABY" post where I compared what I
was currently going through with the S.I. to what Rawlings
experienced. The _very next day_, Scherk was here on Updates for
the first time slumming with the "nutbags," defending the S.I.
right to print what they believed to be true (never mind that it
was really defending a hoax), and then irrationally arguing I
shouldn't bother with the S.I. because they were losing the
argument in the public arena and nobody read them anyway.

All "coincidence" and done by Scherk acting strictly on his own?
Maybe.

>The camp that asserts an alien UFO crash at Roswell is the
>majority, dominates TV programming, radio broadcasts, web sites
>and newsletter publications. This camp produces and sells the
>most books, tapes and videos, attracts the most tourists to its
>'crash sites,' and the most attenders to its conferences.

>There is Science Frontiers, X-Project, Fortean Times, Strange
>Magazine, Parascope News, Journal of Scientific Exploration,
>FATE magazine, The Anomalist, Narratives of the Weird . . . And
>umpteen thousands of websites and mailing lists.

>In my opinion, the alien/UFO hypothesis has won over the public
>mind.

Yada, yada. Here he goes again. I repeat, what does this have
to do with anything? Here's what the real issues are about:

1. Mogul scientist Charles Moore advanced a clearly hoaxed Mogul
balloon trajectory calculation as part of an obvious effort to
debunk the Roswell case in the 1997 book he co-wrote with with
Benson Saler and Charles Ziegler, "UFO Crash at Roswell, The
Genesis of a Modern Myth." The book was published in the
prestigious Smithsonian Press, which claims to be scientifically
peer-reviewed. The book was promoted as a "scientific" treatment
of the Roswell case and his conclusion of calculating a
trajectory "exactly" to the Foster Ranch crash site has been
trumpeted as virtual proof in debunking circles that Mogul
explained the Roswell case. Of course, since Moore's "exact
calculation" turns out to be a fraud, what he did was actually
pseudoscientific and a total abuse of scientific ethics.

2. Brad Sparks and I exposed the hoax a year ago. I did an
extensive writeup detailing the hoax on my website:

www.roswellproof.com/flight4_trajectory.html

3. In the March/April 2003 issue of the Skeptical Inquirer, Dave
Thomas wrote a defense of Moore, claiming I was engaging in
nothing more than character assassination, attacked my website
but deliberately avoided discussing the math facts detailed
therein (characterizing them instead as "quibbles" and "shrill
accusations"), reproduced Moore's bogus calculation, proclaimed
victory ("We both got 2 + 2 =3, so what's the problem?"), and
then personally attacked me as "incompetent." Thomas' SI
article:

http://www.nmsr.org/sf-gun.htm

4. I found out about the article during the summer. I mentioned
that I was drafting a response in an UpDates post:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/jul/m11-012.shtml

5. A week later Thomas turned up for the very first time on UFO
Updates (sound familiar?) with a feeble replay and defense of
his SI article. I responded with a lengthy rebuttal. Thomas
never answered back. (So much for Thomas and any pretense he is
interested in true scientific debate.)

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/jul/m18-003.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/jul/m30-003.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/jul/m30-004.shtml

6. In mid-October, I sent off my finished rebuttal to Kendrick
Frazier, longtime editor of the Skeptical Inquirer. I have
heard absolutely nothing back from Frazier, and it's going on 7
weeks now.

Frazier, as editor of the S.I., would have had to approve
Thomas' attack-dog article. Frazier and Dave Thomas both live in
Albuquerque. Both are "Fellows" of the Skeptical Inquirer.
Thomas is the President of the CSICOP New Mexico outpost NMSR
("New Mexican's for Science and Reason"). Frazier is one of
their "advisors." These guys are practically joined at the hip.
I have to go through Frazier to get my rebuttal against Thomas
published. Does anybody really think that either Frazier or
Thomas wants this rebuttal to ever make it into the pages of the
S.I.?

Frazier is also one of the founders of CSICOP, and one of the
people mentioned by Dennis Rawlings in his article on CSICOP's
coverup of their "Mars effect" scandal. (Rawlings, as you might
remember, accused Frazier of censoring him.) In addition,
Frazier was one of the editors of the 1997 CSICOP Roswell/UFO
debunking book "The UFO Invasion: The Roswell Incident, Alien
Abductions, and Government Coverups." Contributing writers were
Dave Thomas (what a surprise!) and others like fellow founding
CSICOPian Phil Klass, and Col. Richard Weaver ("retired"), head
USAF counterintelligence debunker in their 1994/95 Roswell
debunking report. CSICOPians tend to be very incestuous.

[BTW 1997, the 50th anniversary of Roswell, was a bull market in
the publication of Roswell debunking books. Prometheus books
(i.e. CSICOP) also published Phil Klass' and Kal Korff's anti-
Roswell screeds. The USAF came out with their infamous "Case
Closed" time-traveling crash dummy explanation for alien bodies,
and Col. Philip Corso also came out with his equally infamous
"Day After Roswell", supposedly "pro-Roswell," but possibly a
case of stealth debunkery because it was so full of obviously
inaccurate BS and exaggerated claims. Then there was Moore's
book with his Mogul trajectory hoax. Coincidence?]

>I would welcome a rebuttal from Dr Rudiak in the pages of SI,

Yeah, no doubt just like Dave Thomas and Kendrick Frazier
welcome my rebuttal. I'm sure Mr. Scherk will drop them and line
and plead with them to print it.

Again, we have a great example of Mr. Scherk's disingenuousness.
Go read above what he wrote on his website only two days ago and
judge for yourself whether this man is interested in honest
scientific debate. People who claim to "welcome rebuttal" from
people do not misrepresent and ridicule their responses and call
them "demented."

>whether in its letters section or as an article. From time to
>time, I note, such missives and articles have appeared (most
>recently exchanges between Rupert Sheldrake and his critics).

Note again his obvious familiarity with Skeptical Inquirer
articles.

>I would ask Dr Rudiak this: what measures has he taken to have
>any rebuttal published in SI?

Now he goes on the offensive. My answer: I did exactly as their
instructions to authors requested: submit two printed, double-
spaced copies of the manuscript plus an electronic copy on
floppy disk to the editor Kendrick Frazier in Albuquerque. I
submitted this in mid-October. Mr. Frazier has not responded.

>Did he write a follow-up to his
>original letter responding to Dave Moore?

"Dave Moore?" Is that some sort of mutant hybrid of Dave Thomas
and Charles Moore?

More likely it is a Freudian slip on the part of Mr. Scherk.
"Dave Moore" is a person who has also been the subject of Mr.
Scherk's posts over on Usenet, e.g.,

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=dave+moore+author:william+author:scott+author:
scherk&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=36A9C432.2FE83624%40netbistro.com&rnum=1

The carelessness with Scherk's little slip about "Dave Moore" is
revealing. It's typical Net troll behavior of typing without
thinking.

(The whole "Dave Moore" thing concerned Moore and others being
attacked, even threatened, by another UseNet troll. Moore
apparently put up a whole website trying to expose the guy.
Admittedly without knowing all the facts here, at first glance
it appears Scherk was defending a fellow troll and playing
"blame the victim" again by attacking the troll critics.)

>Did he send an email
>to the editors? Did he propose anything of note?

I did as requested in their instructions to authors. They have
not responded. I plan to "remind" them about the rebuttal soon,
but it _their_ responsibility, not mine to follow up on this.
Scherk is just playing the "blame the victim" card again. As
mentioned before, on his website, he also insinuated I made this
all up. I "purportedly" sent off the rebuttal.

Any claim that they are not aware of my rebuttal are not
believable, as it is on my website:

http://roswellproof.homestead.com/Skeptical_Inquirer_response.html

as previously noted here on UpDates. (I also posted a slightly
different version to UpDates back on Oct. 7 with my stated
intent to send it off to the S.I. editor:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/oct/m07-004.shtml

It is quite obvious that UpDates is followed by at least some
CSICOP groupies and word quickly gets back to the principles
even if they don't read this List. Evidence, e.g., Dave Thomas
himself suddenly appearing here last July, after I announced on
UpDates that I was drafting a rebuttal.

Scherk's equally sudden first appearance here, just this last
week, when the rebuttal subject was brought up again I guess
we'll just have accept for now as another coincidence.


David Rudiak







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 10

              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:05:52 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:37:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Myers


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:05:18 -0500
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@msn.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 23:54:23 -0800
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>It has been some time since I have posted to UpDates, but I just
>>couldn't pass this one up. I don't intend to make a habit of
>>posting, but here are a few things that you might want to see:

>>http://www.rense.com/general45/stan.htm

>>http://www.rense.com/general45/warn.htm
>>The Stan Romanek case is another topic all together...

>Hi Royce, All,

>You wrote:

>>As for Maussan having credibility as a jouranlist/investigator,
>>it is my opinion he is just one more in a lump of UFO clowns
>>that rehash other people's material and make sensationalist and
>>unverifiable claims.

Hi John,

Hope all is well and, as always, appreciate your two-cents.

>Nobody, and I mean nobody, is 100% spot-on all the time Royce.
>You have to be very careful about completely dismissing Maussan
>because more than most of those categorized as 'bad-guys,' it is
>a genuine instance of throwing out the baby with the bath-water
>in his case.

Absolutely - no one is ever 100% all of the time, no argument to
make there. Everyone makes mistakes. But what about when someone
is consistently not 'spot-on'? Let's see...

1) Bunk daylight UFO footage promoted.

2) Promoted Hale-Bopp and was making public claims that giant
UFO motherships were going to evactuate the planet.

3) Promoted bunk Sci-Fi Channel footage as real.

4) Championed the Reed UFO Fraud and continued to promote it
after the roof caved in on it and failed to investigate the
_most basic_ aspects and so did everyone else directly involved.
Maussan went as far as to claim there had been a scientific
examination of the bogus alien artifact 'Dr. Reed' claimed he
found - there was _no_ laboratory analysis done, even though
Maussan went on saying that it utilized nano-technology. Someone
that was with Maussan in Mexico described the so-called
scientific analysis that took place with Maussan in the room -
it was nothing more than one of Maussan's associates picking up
the piece and looking at it while it sat in its case! Not much
of a scientific examination and quite a leap to proclaiming
something is of extraterrestrial technological origin, eh?

Really, I think it is a very basic thing to check on these sort
of claims and their veracity before making them public. Can you
say 'lab report' or 'accredited scientist'? Two people who were
inside the "Dr.Reed" circle have told me what really happened
during that "investigation" and to hear that these so-called
seasoned investigators made these many mistakes, errors,
omissions, and were engaged in some wild antics is unbelievable.

5) Promoted bunk 'alien' pictures with former 'Dr. Reed'
supporter without a thorough investigation and made claims the
footage was authentic and coulnd not be replicated - well, it
was replicated.

6) Promoted massive UFO sightings in Mexico...oh, wait, some of
those were actually interesting...

>You said so yourself, Maussan has some _legitimate_ footage and
>has gathered information on some _legitimate_ UFO cases. An
>example of which is the one I am currently working with him on,
>an commercial aircraft and a 'UFO' collision case that happened
>back in '94 at Mexico City International. The reporting
>witnesses in that case are the commercial pilot of the plane and
>the ATC (air traffic controller) who had to quickly arrange for
>an emergency landing of that passenger laden jet.

Is this the one the Elders' 'docu-drama' videos? Is it the same
case he claimed to have radar tapes for? And yes, Maussan
appears to possess some legitimate UFO footage, but that really
isn't a card to Pass Go And Collect $200.

We all don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water, but
sometimes you actually have to have a baby in the tub first.
Again, it comes down to a factor of credibility and how many
times someone has cried wolf.

>Maussan is not by any stretch of the imagination a scientist or
>a trained/skilled researcher

Huh?!

Based on what I've seen of Maussan's UFO cases, I completely
agree with you. But, isn't he an 'investigative' journalist with
a degree? Hasn't he been doing journalism for 33 years? Being a
researcher and an investigator are essential and _basic_ core
elements to being a journalist. I'm not trying to be insulting,
but this just seems very rudimentary to me.

If he isn't a trained or skilled researcher, then what is he
doing investigating any of these cases and making presentations
to the public based on his 'investigation' ? I'm not buying that
argument for a second, and am frankly surprised that you would
attempt to justify Maussan's past deeds by trying to tell me
he's not any sort of researcher and/or investigator. This is
comparable to having a person claim they're an auto mechanic yet
they have not clue one as to what a radiator, spark-plug, or oil
filter is and you're recommending I take my car to his shop for
a tune-up.

>It's unfair to hold him to those strict standards.

No it isn't, and in Maussan's position he should absolutely be
held to a higher standard, just as should any UFO 'investigator'
examining cases and making public claims. Of the topics most
covered on this List are credibility, accountability, and
ethics. If someone is going to be presenting their
'investigation', then it damn well better be a real
investigation. This is a subject that has the potential to have
an impact on the world like no other, and you don't think it
fair to hold someone to a set of high standards? I think not.
Especially when a field such as this one is lumped together and,
it seems to me, when one person speaks publicly on this subject
that person is speaking for all of us - whether we like it or
not.

This field is so scrutinized by nay-sayers, skeptics, and
debunkers that the last thing I want is someone trampling a case
that may have the answers to all of our questions - earthly or
otherwise. Is that what you would have? I didn't think so.

<snip>

>Jaime needs to be taken on a case by case basis. Otherwise we
>run the risk of blowing right past some of the most amazing UFO
>cases ever to hit the blotter.

I have taken him on a case by case basis, his batting average is
terrible and it seems he's mostly involved in sensationalistic
and bunk UFO cases.

>Try not to be so down on the man.
>You know me Royce. Believe me, I have spent some time speaking
>with this guy. He's not the evil phony or clown that you paint
>him to be. I consider myself a decent judge of character and
>Jaime is -honest- if not 'right' all the time.

I'm not being "down on the man", far from it. He seems to be a
nice guy, fairly charming and likeable. He just doesn't have my
vote of confidence when it comes down to credible and skilled
investigation.

Right all the time...? Again, I think not.

>>While Maussan may have some legitimate UFO footage, it has been
>>drowned out by his past antics, claims, and sensationalistic
>>promotion of bunk UFO cases.

>Get past the noise. In Maussan's case it is worth it. It is in
>fact one of the few times that I have found this to be the case.
>Dismiss Maussan and you risk blowing off some of the most
>_credible- material to come down the pike in years!

This isn't "noise", just the facts that Maussan has a track
record for promoting and sensationalizing bunk UFO cases. As for
"some of the most _credible_ material to come down the pike in
years" coming from Maussan, I'll believe when I see it and
there's some proof to back it. And if this is the case, again
this isn't an attempt to be insulting. Maussan should give it to
someone else for the sake of credibility and investigation.

John, there's simply no way we're going to agree on Maussan. My
past experience with him and his track record speaks for itself.
Thanks for your view.


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM








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   Dec > Dec 10

                Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case!

From: Marcos Malvezzi Leal <malvezzil@ig.com.br>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 07:52:59 -0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:44:31 -0500
Subject: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case!


Dear Listers,

Unlike the infamous so-called "Barra da Tijuca" incident, in
which a supposed UFO photograph was proven as an undeniable
hoax, the veracity about the Trindade Island incident, in
Brazil, in the late 50's is unquestionable. To doubt it would be
the same as the doubt the Brazilian Navy itself, which in an
excepcional example of professionalism and ethics confirmed the
authenticity of the photos taken by photographer Almiro Bara=FAna,
leaving no room for controversy in that respect.

The shots taken by Bara=FAna were analyzed, checked and double-
checked for flaws and none were found. And never will, because
they do not exist. They are a definite proof that unidentified
objetcs probably of extraterrestrial origin do visit our planet
and CAN be captured on film.

Some of the best photographic evidences of UFO activities in our
skies have been obtained in Brazil. The Trindade photos
definitely rank among the top.


Marcos Malvezzi Leal
Translation Coordinator,
Brazilian UFO Magazine







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Dec > Dec 10

               Re: 1733 - The First Known Sighting? - Patounas

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:52:50 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:14:57 -0500
Subject: Re: 1733 - The First Known Sighting? - Patounas


>From: Larry Hatch
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
>Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 13:59:56 -0800
>Subject: Re: 1733 - The First Known Sighting?

>>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas
>>To: UFO UpDates -Toronto
>>Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:52:22 -0200
>>Subject: 1733 - The First Known Sighting?

>>Source: The Scotsman, UK

>>http://www.news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2271652

>>On This Day - December 8

>>1733: A Dorset man reported seeing a polished silver disc in the
>>sky the first known sighting of an Unidentified Flying Object,
>>or UFO.

>I have maybe 45 listings prior to 1733, of highly variable
>merits of course.


Hello Larry

I know that. I only reply the wrong information of the site. We
know sightings AC.

Regards

-----

[??? --ebk]







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   Dec > Dec 10

               Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:14:23 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:43:17 -0500
Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Lehmberg


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 14:47:29 -0600
>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>From: William Scott Scherk <wss@uniserve.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 07:18:42 -0800
>>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:20:15 -0600
>>>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>>>From: William Scott Scherk <wss@uniserve.com>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:28:54 -0800
>>>>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>Patient and gentle Listfolk:

>It is not my intention to waste time in a debate with somebody
>who regards those who disagree with him as "nutbags" - the odd
>phrase makes me wonder if this guy is 80 years old - and who
>seems unable to tell the difference between Fate magazine and
>Science Frontiers (and who, one infers, thinks the editors of
>these very different periodicals are living the lifestyle of
>Scrooge McDuck).

<snip>

>On the other hand, pretending to be poor is always a good way to
>separate the sympathetic true believer from his or her money.
>And the CSICOP faithful, as we have seen, believe as truly as
>one can believe.


Verily! Pity the much maligned and roundly mistreated CSICOPians
of a beleaguered CSICOPia! Have some sympathy for their hand to
mouth pecuniary squalor, tattered environ, and shabby raiment!
Show some compassion with regard to an underdog relationship
proffered by the mainstream that detests them, discounts them at
every turn, humiliates them in the media, sabotages their book
deals, and otherwise celebrates CSICOPian enemies at expense of
the persecuted CSICOPian! Generate some empathy for the brave
struggle they valiantly endure in opposition to the _massive_
public paranormal forces arrayed against them!

Discounted, derided and dismissed by these too powerful
paranormal behemoths of the fabulously well-funded fringe, they
fight a never ending battle for truth, right, and reactionary
scientism! From positions of fabulous wealth and crushing power
the paranormalist dragons pummel the tidy nests of rational,
ethical, and moral pelicanists, who stand bravely in the fray as
true two-color heroes!

...Pity the poor, underprivileged, and deprived, but stalwartly
pelikanistic and scientistic CSICOPians! Verily! I say unto
ye...

...not!


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

PS -- A small taste of Good News for John Ford! The current
(albeit one-sided) discussions with ardent pelikanists and
Apathetic Andy Roberts (et. al. insisting on bringing hat-pins
to the ufological gun-fight) has inspired one more UpDates
subscriber to pledge a hundred dollars to the John Ford Fund!
Pledged monies are ear-marked for John Ford against his release
from jail where he languishes for a crime that he did _not_
commit... they have to let him out someday! Thank you, kind sir!

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.


$450.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!



"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Dec > Dec 11

                NASA Faces Lawsuit In Kecksburg UFO Incident

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:11:10 -0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 08:43:47 -0500
Subject: NASA Faces Lawsuit In Kecksburg UFO Incident



Source: WPXI-TV Pittsburgh Pennsylvania

http://www.wpxi.com/news/2695297/detail.html


Many Residents Believe UFO Landed In Kecksburg

December 10, 2003

Kecksburg, Pa. -- NASA is facing a lawsuit to get it to release
what it knows about claims of a UFO landing in Westmoreland
County. Many residents in Kecksburg believe an acorn-shaped UFO
landed there 38 years ago, including expert Stan Gordon. "I'm
convinced that an object of unknown origin definitely fell from
the sky and was recovered by the military. What the object was
still is open for speculation," he said.

Gordon thinks it was possibly part of a Russian space probe. A
representative for NASA said he can't comment on the lawsuit.







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   Dec > Dec 11

             Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:39:41 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:27:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Roberts


>From: Richard Conway <ranger_conway@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:24:31 -0800 (PST)
>Subject: Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown"


Pilgrims,

Richard writes:

>Tut tut Andy, at it again bad mouthing anybody and everybody who
>doesn't buy into your lop-sided view of ufology. This is not
>healthy  behaviour. I'm still waiting for a formal answer to my
>questions.

>Unfortunately all I got in response was unadulterated rubbish -
>if you don't understand scientific methodology then you should
>just  say so Andy. There is no shame. After all there are plenty
>of charlatan "experimentalists" such as yourself who justify
>their existence through the ignorance of their audience.

Not so Richard. You asked (and I'm not sure who _you_ are in
ufology, as you've failed to produce anything of lasting
interest to the subject) if I had constructed my hoaxing
experiments in a 'scientific' way.

I replied that they were all well documented and had sufficient
structure to be able to see if they worked, i.e., if dumb
ufologists fell for them. They did, they are doing and they will
do.

You are now in a boo because I refused to give you further
information. Live with it.

>Therefore I'm not surprised that you consider your book's
>primary audience as the general public.

Who else is there to write for? The majority of ufologists are
bitter, twisted and jealous and only believe what they wish to,
without doing the R&I to prove otherwise.


Happy Trails

Andy

'...Andy Roberts seems less like a government agent than anybody
I have ever met, but of course that might show what a very good
agent he is!' -- John Rimmer, Magonia 83, December 2003








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   Dec > Dec 11

             Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions

From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:30:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:58:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:57:02 -0500
>Subject: Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions

>Let's make a distinction between those who are 'imagining' they
>are being abducted and those who are ACTUALLY being abducted and
>this thread will suddenly begin to make some sense. I resent the
>lack of distinction between the two here in this thread.

I don't want to even to try to dispute what you believe. Because
I'm sure there are plenty of people here who either think you're
completely delusional and will ask you for your alien Polaroids,
or on the other end of the spectrum those who will accept every
word without question and what they don't hear from you they'll
make up on their own. I don't want to get into that church
meeting.

But from what I understand, even with a physical abduction,
there is usually a strong cognitive component involved. How does
one drive along and "suddenly" find themselves isolated? Or
simply not be able to pull a trigger on a shotgun? That's
indication of a strong cognitive/perceptual component. The old
"high strangeness" aspect. There's going to be some ambiguity
about the "reality" of your experience because of your
perception of it. What you perceive with your senses (very
unreliable, think of a magic act), and your memory (also
extremely unreliable). You say it doesn't matter if you kick and
scream, etc., but how can an abductee really be sure they're
doing all of that? The common picture of aliens make them look
pretty spindly. A good, solid boot to the head ought to at least
slow them down. And what if a prayer or talisman has been
effective in warding off a physical abduction? Since the
abduction never happened, then there's no report. You get a
paradox, and you're trying to prove a negative again.

All I'm suggesting is that in any abduction scenario, it might
be advantageous to have some kind of clear mental focal point,
if for no other reason than to look for vulnerabilities to
exploit in self-defense. But, like I said in another post, there
appear to be subtleties and complexities involved that might be
beyond our admittedly limited capacity to comprehend. I don't
have an answer. I'm just trying to come up with reasonable
questions.








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   Dec > Dec 11

                          Filer's Files #50 - 2003

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:22:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:05:14 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #50 - 2003


Filer's Files #50 - 2003 Skywatch Investigations.
George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
December 10, 2003, Webmaster: Chuck Warren --
My website is at: www.georgefiler.com/

Sightings High in Netherlands and Florida

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. This week's files investigate =96 Project
Silver Bug Was A Plan For the US to Build UFOs, Cracks in
Earth's Magnetic Shield, US Might Build Base on the Moon, Mars
Climate Is Changing, Maine - Cross Shaped Lights 100 Feet Long,
Connecticut =96 Circular Light With Five Rapidly Blinking Lights,
New York =96 UFO Blocks the Road, Maryland =96 Chevron, "Virginia -
Weird Lights Moving In The Woods, Georgia =96 Flying Round Object,
Florida - Three Sightings,

Ohio - Cylinder Behind Jet Contrails and UFO Dives into Caverns?
Kentucky =96 Screaming Women and UFO Reported, Texas - Gray
Cylinder and Large Triangular Craft Investigation, Nebraska -
Flying Triangle, New Mexico =96 Possible Cattle Mutilation,
California =96 Golden Sphere, Canada =96 Red Ball Lights Up Area,
UK/England - Five Intensely Bright Flashing Egg Lights, India -
UFO Seen In Last Full Moon, Australia - Formation of Discs
Overhead. The Netherlands =96 Twenty UFO Reports in 24 Hour Flap.

Project Silver Bug Was a Plan for the US to Build UFOs.

Jack Picket the editor of military news magazines helped me
obtain a 30 page FOIA release on Project Silver Bug that showed
the Air Force was developing a disc shaped aircraft in 1955. He
had personally seen four of the craft at Mac Dill Air Force Base
in 1966, and was asked to release a story concerning these
classified aircraft. Later, just prior to publication the
article was cut, because a disc was seen flying low over Miami.
Jack had personally seen four of the disc shaped aircraft in the
disposal area that ranged in size from 25 feet to 125 feet in
diameter. The four aircraft were saucers shaped with vertical
stabilizers (tails) with AF Experimental written on the craft.
He was told there were numerous similar craft flying, but they
were unstable and frequently crashed.

This "saucer" designed aircraft was believed to use two to four
J58 engines that were also the propulsion system for the SR-71.
The SR-71 could fly faster than Mach 3 and was designed in
secrecy by a team headed by Clarence L. "Kelly" Johnson,
director of Lockheed's Advanced Development Projects office
better known as the 'Skunk Works'. The existence of the aircraft
was not officially revealed until February 29, 1964. Skunk
Work's engineer Ben Rich is quoted as saying, "Some UFOs are
ours and some are theirs."

Project Silver Bug was the research and development project to
field jet propelled flying saucers beginning in 1955, that would
be dispersed to underground bases to avoid Soviet attack. The
disks were capable of vertical takeoffs and landings, and would
be capable of Mach 3.48 - faster than the SR-71 Blackbird.  In
the Project Silver Bug Report, dated Feb. 15, 1955, and
declassified on March 29, 1995, he claimed the disk interceptor
aircraft would be capable of vertical takeoff and landing; a
maximum level speed of 2,300 mph with afterburners; a ceiling of
80,600 feet; and a climb rate of 1.76 minutes to 36,090 feet.
The Pratt and Whitney Aircraft Division of United Aircraft
Corporation developed the J58 engines that in July 1976, powered
an SR-71 to a world altitude record of 85,069 ft. and another to
a world speed record of 2,193 mph.

The Report on Project Silver Bug was issued by the Air Technical
Intelligence Center along with the Wright Air Development Center
at  Wright-Patterson AFB in Dayton, Ohio. The Silver Bug report
noted that a pair of ongoing US projects  involving the building
of flying saucers had already occurred. The book  Page 5 of
Slier Bug Technical Report below: The Silver Bug disc would be
capable of vertical takeoff and landing; and performance greater
than the SR-71. This performance was far in advance of any
aircraft then and is roughly equivalent to the current F- 15
fighter."The Super Spies", by Andrew Tully, 1969, claimed these
discs were being used as "Saucers with Ears," that is, for
communications intercept missions.

The 1955 issue of Look Magazine state that, "New air defense
problems were setting up requirements for aircraft performance
which would apparently be best met by a saucer aircraft. Runways
would not be needed and bases could go underground with tunnels
and takeoff shafts set in the ground, complete with maintenance
bays, fuel, and crew quarters. Those underground bases, the
article said, would be bombproof shelters for a saucer squadron.
The shafts would be sealed after takeoff for camouflage and
protection."

It is rather obvious that our technology has greatly improved
since the late 1950s, and that faster and higher flying aircraft
are available to the Air Force. Modern aircraft should exceed
5000 mph and 100,000 feet altitudes.

Jeff Rense mentioned on his Radio show on December 3, 2003, that
the US has built UFOs and that more data will be forth coming.

Cracks in Earth's Magnetic Shield

NASA reports that immense cracks in our planet's magnetic field
can remain open for hours, allowing the solar wind to gush
through and power stormy space weather. Our Earth is surrounded
by a magnetic force field - a bubble in space called "the
magnetosphere" that is tens of thousands of miles wide. The
magnetosphere is part of the same planetary magnetic field that
deflects compass needles. The magnetosphere acts as a shield
that protects us from solar storms. According to new
observations, from NASA's IMAGE spacecraft and the joint
NASA/European Space Agency Cluster satellites, immense cracks
sometimes develop in Earth's magnetosphere and remain open for
hours. This allows the solar wind to gush through and power
stormy space weather. We've discovered that our magnetic shield
is drafty, like a house with a window stuck open during a
storm," says Harold Frey of the University of California,
Berkeley, lead author of a paper on this research published Dec.
4 in Nature. "The house deflects most of the storm, but the
couch is ruined. Similarly, our magnetic shield takes the brunt
of space storms, but some energy slips through its cracks,
sometimes enough to cause problems with satellites, radio
communication, and power systems."

Editors Note: These cracks in the magnetic shield seem to effect
not only space weather but weather systems on the Earth

Return to The Moon? Bush Wants New Lunar Program

President George W. Bush may be preparing to put the US back on
the path to the moon and establish a permanent base. It would be
the first time in more than 30 years that astronauts have been
to the moon. News.com.au reported that Bush will make the
announcement either on December 17, the 100th anniversary of the
Wright brothers first flight, or in his State of the Union
address in January. The United States landed on the moon in July
of 1969, and recently China announced plans to establish a base
on the moon. Thanks to Dr. Bob Trundle Ph.D.

Mars Climate Changing - Life on Mars?

The amount of frozen water near the surface in some relatively
warm low-latitude regions on both sides of Mars' equator appears
too great to be in equilibrium with the atmosphere under current
climatic conditions, said Dr. William Feldman of Los Alamos
National Laboratory, NM He is the lead scientist for an Odyssey
instrument that assesses water content. "One explanation could
be that Mars is just coming out of an ice age," Feldman said.
"In some low-latitude areas, the ice has already dissipated. In
others, that process is slower and hasn't reached an equilibrium
yet. Those areas are like the patches of snow you sometimes see
persisting in protected spots long after the last snowfall of
the winter."

Frozen water makes up as much as 10 percent of the top three
feet of surface material in some regions close to the equator.
Dust deposits may be covering and insulating the lingering ice,
Feldman said. He and other Odyssey scientists described their
recent findings today at the fall meeting of the American
Geophysical Union in San Francisco. "Odyssey is giving us
indications of recent global climate change in Mars," said Dr.
Jeffrey Plaut, project scientist for the mission at NASA's Jet
Propulsion Laboratory.

High latitude regions of Mars have layers with differing ice
content within the top half meter (20 inches) or so of the
surface, researchers conclude from mapping of hydrogen abundance
based on gamma-ray emissions. "A model that fits the data has
three layers near the surface," said Dr. William Boynton of the
University of Arizona, "The very top layer would be dry, with no
ice. The next layer would contain ice in the pore spaces between
grains of soil. Beneath that would be a very ice-rich layer, 60
to nearly 100 percent water ice."

Editor=92s Note: We have been telling NASA for many years there
was evidence for water on Mars. It is nice to see they are
starting to agree with us. Don't be surprised if the UK finds
life when its mission lands on Christmas Day.

Maine - Cross Shaped Lights 100 feet Long

WATERVILLE =96 The witness was on his porch waiting for his
girlfriend to get out of the shower on November 21, 2003.
Watching the sky for ten minutes, he saw five lighted cross-
shaped machines flying low in the distance at 1 PM. He states,
"I ran inside and yelled to my girlfriend to take a look, she
did and got scared stiff." They hovered in one spot for twenty
minutes. There were five of them. After a period of time they
slowly turned to the west and glided away. There were six lights
on each craft. It scared my girl so much see shivered all night.
Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Connecticut =96 Circular Light With Blinking Lights

SEYMOUR - At 10:15 PM, the witness went out on the porch on a
very cold clear night and saw a bright blinking object with
numerous colors that was brighter than the other stars. It was
blinking at quick intervals, unlike the lights of a plane or
jet. His wife retrieved his binoculars and he saw a bright
circular light with what looked like four or five rapidly
blinking lights. The object was stationary and not emitting any
noise. He went next door and awakened my neighbors and let them
look through the binoculars. Their reaction was the same as
mine. I called the Oxford Airport personnel. They told me there
were no weather balloons in the area. I have some of it on
video. I am not a pro, so the picture did not come out too good,
but good enough. The object had moved further away at this
point. After about a half hour it vanished. I hope to take the
pictures somewhere to see if they can clear up the image. It was
at night so you cannot make out any clear shape. I hope to see
it again. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

New York =96 UFO Blocks Road

WATERTOWN - Rick Doty writes, "I recently was sent a document
that pertains to an incident in Watertown, New York. There is no
date on this incident that occurred in the early evening, when a
UFO landed on State Route 12, about two miles southeast of
Watertown. Two occupants exited the craft and walked to a
residence east of Route 12. Several motorists stopped because
the craft was blocking the road. Jefferson County Sheriff's
Department received several calls reporting the blocked traffic
on Route 12 and two State Troopers were dispatched to the area.
In the meantime, the two occupants of the craft walked onto the
porch of a residence. Sometime later, the two occupants of the
craft returned to their flight vehicle. At this point about ten
citizens and two state troopers witnessed the two occupants
enter the craft and fly away. Several photographs were taken of
this incident. One witness used an 8 mm movie camera to record
the event. Later the film was developed and the two occupants of
this craft showed up in the background of three photographs. The
only hint I see that this incident occurred several years ago is
the 8 mm movie camera. They went out about 25 years ago. I don't
know if this is a hoax or a real incident. I never heard of it.
Thanks to =96 Sgt. Rick Doty

Maryland =96 Chevron Sighting

BALTIMORE =96 The observer was walking back to his car at 9:40 PM,
on December 1, 2003, on the uppermost roof level of a parking
deck, adjacent to Baltimore's City Hall. The observer works in a
model shop in downtown Baltimore, and saw a series of very dim
lights in a chevron formation moving quickly to the south. The
arrow shaped arrangement of lights meant there were possibly 5
or 6 lights on each "wing." These lights were very dim, and I
could barely see them. However, they did continue to move in an
erratic pattern to the south until I could not see them anymore.
The object made no sound, and the lights stayed relative to
their original position on the craft. If it was not some type of
spacecraft, I think it could have possibly been a kite, or
possibly a flock of birds. Barring an optical illusion on my
part, it could not have been much else. Thanks to Peter
Davenport UFOcenter

Virginia - Pretty Weird Lights Moving in the Woods

Jason writes that, "Filer's Files #49 article on Virginia sounds
so close to what my family and I saw that I had to write and
tell you. While I do not personally believe anymore that these
are actual alien beings from another world (I believe they are
something darker), I do know that some of these things are real
and I have watched for years to see if anyone else had witnessed
the same thing as me, but unfortunately I only know of a farmer
in Scotland that reported something similar. I thought the term
the witness used "surveying the woods" is almost exactly how I
felt. Although, it seems silly to assume that this thing was
surveying, that is exactly what it looked like. At first, we
thought the lights were coming from hunters in tree stands.
Thanks to Jason
http://www.iwasabducted.com/ufoboard/reports/59.htm

Georgia =96 Flying Round Object

Tom Sheets State Director reports that the witness contacted
Chris Brennam of the Brunswick News; and he is reporting
continued observations by multiple witnesses of distant aerial
objects with blue, yellow, red, and green lights. Some
observations including shape-shifting into objects with a
fuselage and wing shape. This has been capped with the recent
appearance of a large and closer low flying roundish object
coming from the south at 3000-4000 feet altitude, the object
having an array of lights on the bottom resembling a
"honeycomb/grid" like pattern. The lights change colors and are
very bright. I spoke to this witness on Tuesday afternoon and he
agreed to meet with our investigators John Bodin, MUFONGA's DD
for south Georgia, and Charles Bowen, SSD for the Savannah area,
have been assigned. Thanks to Tom Sheets.
www.mufon.com/georgia.html

Florida - Circular Objects Flying Overhead and Invisible Jet

PENSACOLA =96 The witness reports, "I went out for a smoke and saw
an object come from the north moving south very fast, much
faster than a plane or satellite." If you put your hands side by
side, it was four hand spaces west of the moon on November 16,
2003, and this was no shooting star and was in the earth's
atmosphere. It was six fingers wider than the moon, bright,
yellow-orange with a halo or ring farther out. It just streaked
across the sky and was gone. Thanks to Peter Davenport

SOUTHWEST MIAMI - On November 17, 2003, about 4:45 PM, the sun
was getting low in the west in a bright clear sky, twenty miles
from Homestead Reserve Air Base. I'm accustomed to seeing and
hearing military jets from there. Working in the front yard I
heard that military jet sound relatively close overhead as
usual. Upon looking to see one of the beautiful F-16's or F-
18's, I was surprised to find I couldn't see anything. The loud
engine sound flew northwest. I searched the sky for the entire
time of the relatively slow, directly overhead passage but never
saw the craft. Thanks to Peter Davenport

ST. PETERSBURG =96 The witness was walking his dog that was
searching for scents on the ground on November 16, 2003, at 7:30
PM. The dog looked up twice, and I also looked up and saw a huge
round object flying above the treetops. It had lights on the
outer edges that were going around. It looked like a slide
projection on the clouds but this projection traveled south over
our roof and disappeared. I got my wife and we both saw it
again! The phenomenon was also witnessed by another apartment
resident hanging her laundry. Thanks to Peter Davenport
UFOcenter

Ohio - Cylinder Behind Jet and UFO Dives into Caverns?

REYNOLDSBURG =96 On December 1, 2003, a cylinder shaped object
moving east appeared in broad daylight around noon and was
flying very high in the sky and was the size of a ball point pen
tip held at arm's length. The witness had a passing plane to
compare with the cylinder. The object passed behind the contrail
of a jet airplane moving in the opposite direction, but left no
contrail of it's own. Also, the object seemed to reflect the
sun's rays inconsistently, and was not constantly illuminated by
the sun as was the airplane moving in the opposite direction.
Thanks to Peter Davenport

FOSTORIA CAVERN ENVIRONMENT =96 George Ritter continues to
videotape UFOs that appear to fly into and out of a farmer=92s
field. A retired Ohio State Policeman has contacted us who
investigated a similar situation. He physically walked through a
field to pick up any wreckage of the craft. Nothing could be
found. Obviously, what the video infers seems impossible,
however, we request help from a geologist to help make an
examination of the area. Many caverns are known to exist in the
general area. Regardless of the weather conditions the
temperature of the Ohio Caverns remains a constant 54=B0 F. (12.2=B0
C.) throughout the year. The air inside the Caverns is always
fresh and invigorating. Many of the suspected caverns in the
area have not been exactly located but some are known to exist
within ten miles. I call on an experienced geologist to examine
the site. Thanks to George Ritter

KENTUCKY =96 Screaming Women and UFO Reported

MOREHEAD =96 Investigators Donnie Blessing and Kenny Young are
investigating a strange case. Donnie Blessing Southern Ohio
Section Director MUFON, POSTING TO CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS LIST BY
KENNY YOUNG).

"A short time ago I located and interviewed a very credible
witness in Morehead, Kentucky that has provided me with a sober
link between a UFO sighting and bizarre report of desperate and
blood-curdling screaming sounds heard at the same location
immediately after the unidentified flying object had departed."
After the conversation I had to call a 'time out' and take some
time to contemplate over this development as the report is
terribly interesting. It is one of the best reports I have ever
taken as I am impressed with the witness and extreme strangeness
of the case. I will prepare the details of this case shortly.
The witness did not report this except to the police and has no
idea how it ended up at NUFORC. As stated earlier, the Morehead
police department was dismissive of this incident. They
acknowledged a search party and report of screaming sounds but
said that 'northern lights' were seen in the area. From my
conversation with this very credible witness, northern lights
can be positively ruled out. Thanks to Donnie Blessing, Kenny
Young and Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Illinois =96 Moving Light at Sunset

CHICAGO (West Suburbs) =96 The witness was driving on I-88 west,
heading towards Aurora on November 19, 2003, at about 4:30 PM,
when he saw two soft white lights a mile ahead.  The sun was
just setting, when he saw the first star on the horizon, and to
the right of a star he saw another soft white light half an inch
to the right, and about an inch below. The second light was
moving slowly towards the first and about half way it
disappeared. In a few seconds it reappeared next to the first
light. I couldn't see any ship, but it was unusual since this
happened during sunset and there was still a lot of sunlight. It
was the absence of color that made me take notice. When the
second light disappeared, it was very strange. Thanks to Peter
Davenport UFOcenter

Nebraska - Triangle Shape Craft With Multiple Lights

OMAHA =96 A very bright light was observed hovering north of I-80
on November 20, 2003, at 6 PM. Closer observation revealed a
triangle shaped object with multiple lights underneath that did
not make any noise. Thanks to Peter Davenport

Texas - Gray Cylinder and Lights Investigation

DALLAS =96 Last week on November 19, 2003, at about 2:05 PM an
observer reported seeing a gray cylinder that resembled a
fuselage without any wings going upwards with a faint trail
following it. The following two nights there has been a white or
yellowish star that is out of place but has been seen in plain
view at 5:45 PM and it is extremely too bright to be a star.

DALLAS - George Venner a MUFON investigator writes, "I live in
a suburb of Dallas called Mesquite, and also saw the white or
yellowish star. I filmed for about 10-15 minutes and questioned
its identity because it was so bright and low in the sky, and no
other stars were visible. I waited for 30 minutes and it still
just sat there moving slightly like a star would over time.
After reviewing my film and using Starry Night Pro software I
believe it to be Venus that was visible at -3.95 which is very
bright at that location at that time. Thanks to: George Venner
MUFON, phone l 214-543-1964

New Mexico =96 Possible Cattle Mutilation

CLOUDCROFT - On November 28, 2003, at about 1 PM, the witness
was walking in the Lincoln National Forest and came upon a dead
elk laying in a shallow ravine. The elk was no more than 200
yards from our subdivision, and perhaps half a mile from my
house. There is a substantial elk population in the area, and
sightings are not unusual. The dead elk was a small one, the
length perhaps 4 feet, and weighing maybe 400-600 pounds. Rigor
mortis was full and complete. There was no evidence the elk had
been gutted by a hunter, as there was no apparent longitudinal
incision on the lower abdomen/chest area. The head had been
removed, as if cut from the body right where the neck joins the
body, and the vertebrae stuck out from the cut area about 6
inches or so, ending in a smoothly sliced vertebrae.

The witness took photos that show the rectum of this elk has
been smoothly cored out. Further, the genitals have been
removed, and there is no obvious way to tell the sex of this
animal. The removal of the genitals could be attributable to
animals perhaps (we have mountain lions, coyotes, and bears) as
the removal does not appear to have been in such a clean,
surgical fashion upon my limited observation. The elk carcass is
still on site for investigation. Brian Vike, Director CANADA
HBCC Research California =96 Golden Sphere

BURBANK - At 8:30 PM, on November 17, 2003, the witness
reports, "My daughter and I saw a gold sphere traveling slowly
in the southern sky above Los Angeles, similar to sightings by
my wife and I several months ago. It traveled to the
southwestern sky in a circular motion for about ten minutes. I
tried to get my telescope out but by the time I got set up, it
vanished. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Canada =96 Red Ball Lights Up Area

BURNS LAKE, BC - Two witnesses were traveling back home to
Houston, British Columbia on November 16, 2003, after taking a
two week holiday. They were climbing a small hill on Highway #16
just before Babine Forest Products when they both noticed a red
ball of light ahead of them, dropping on a slight angle from low
in the sky at 7:30 p.m. The witnesses said, the object, what
ever it was seem to come down just on the other side of the hill
they were climbing. Also, what they found to be strange was just
after they lost sight of the red ball of light behind the hill,
all of a sudden at the crest of the grade, on the highway, the
whole area was glowing a bright reddish color. They reported
that the tops of the tress were also bathed in a reddish glow.
=46rom their vantage point they could not see anything as they had
not arrived at the top of the hill. They were only a few hundred
yards away from reaching the top and from this location they
should have been able to see what was causing this reddish glow.
Just before they reached the top the light went out. The couple
slowed down and kept their eyes open to maybe catch sight of it
again somewhere just off the highway. But nothing could be
observed. No vehicles were seen driving along the highway ahead
of them. Thanks to Brian Vike, CANADA HBCC Research 1 866 262
1989 hotline

UK/England - Five Intensely Bright Flashing Egg Lights.

NOTTINGHAM - Whilst traveling north bound along the M1
motorway, five witnesses noticed a bright flashing light high in
the sky at 12:25 PM. They saw a large bright white light
flashing on and off at a slow pace on November 20, 2003. This
continued every few seconds and when the light disappeared
nothing could be seen even though it was a bright sunny day. We
were all amazed and confused to what it could be. The light was
intense. After about one minute and in the same direction other
bright flashing lights appeared as if they were communicating
with each other. We all agreed there were at least four lights
maybe five. We continued to travel along the motorway and opened
the car windows for a better look. We noted other motorist
looking at the same thing. The lights continued for about four
or five minutes. Before the lights disappeared, I noted one of
them move to the 2 o'clock direction stretching as it did before
disappearing. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

 India -UFO Seen In Last Full Moon

MUMBAI =96 On November 30, 2003?, the observer saw a sort of UFO
during the last full moon. At nearly 2:00 AM, the witness
states, "I went to my balcony to see the stars (as its my hobby
to watch stars). A bright star attracted me that was the
brightest star in the sky. I never saw such bright star. Its
direction was- towards Bandraside and it was just a bright light
white and slight yellow without any blink or flash. I kept
staring at it and gradually there was an increase in its size,
and within 5-10 seconds, I realized that as it increased in its
size there was a very fast circular motion of the light. It was
like a ball burning in flames and is revolving very fast in
circular motion. It remained for a few more seconds and then
minimized and vanished. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Australia - Formation Of Discs Overhead

MELBOURNE =96 The witnesses were at a party and decided to go for
a walk down the foreshore nature trail on December 1, 2003. At
4:24 PM, we were about ten minutes into the trip and we were
thinking about heading back and turned around when one of my
friends yelled out, "Hey, what the hell is that?" There were a
few screams from the females, but then we settled down and stood
there in amazement as these nimble crafts floated 800 to 900
meters above our heads. They were disc shaped objects that
seemed to be able to move in any direction and flew about in a
pattern. They had no reliance on the winds like the planes of
today. We were all frightened and we admitted afterwards that it
was a terrifying experience.



The Netherlands =96 Twenty UFO Reports in 24 Hour Flap

Hello George, Just to let you know that we received over 20 UFO
sighting reports in the last 24 hours (Dec. 10-11) throughout
the whole country and they just keep coming! I don't have time
at the moment to translate them all, but I'll keep you
informed... Met Vriendelijke Groet / Kind Regards, Toine Trust
Editor UFOPlaza Nieuwsbrief site: www.UFOPlaza.nl

mail: ganzEgal@UFOPlaza.nl

I Need Your Help

Dear Readers - Filer's Files has been brought to you free for
seven years on a weekly basis. As of January 1, 2003, I'm
requesting a donation of $2 a month or $24 per year to enable me
to continue with Filer's Files. This will hopefully cover my
present operating expenses. Without donations, I will be forced
to discontinue these files and the website.

Many thanks for the ten donations of those who have already
helped. They are much appreciated. Your donations can be sent
to: www.GeorgeFiler.com Paypal, Visa, American Express, and
Master charge are accepted.

New Book - Global Implications of the UFO Reality

David E. Twichell writes: "How will humankind react when full
disclosure of the alien presence in our world is finally
released? Why has official secrecy been perpetuated for so many
years? Is the UFO phenomenon a modern myth or have they always
been with us? What are the credentials of those who insist "we
are not alone in the universe." These and many other provocative
questions are addressed. Chilling scientific evidence
demonstrates the urgency for full disclosure =96 NOW! On that
historic day, there is no element of the human experience that
will remain unaffected. Go to: www.ufoimplications.com to read
an excerpt from the book and ordering instructions.

WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW WHEN BUYING/SELLING REAL ESTATE! Get your
free report and learn how you can obtain the best real estate
agent to help your buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of
this report e-mail me at: Majorstar @ aol.com

Cognigen - is a leading global provider of discount telecom
services that has the best rates in the industry. Long distance
rates from 3.4 cents per minute, T-1s, calling cards, computers,
and zero cents per minute for unlimited local and long distance
calls for only $29.99 per month. Check it out at:

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MUFON UFO JOURNAL - For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $35.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask
questions contact MUFONHQ@aol.com or HQ@mufon.com. Mention that
I recommended you for membership. "The MUFON Journal is now
accepting qualified advertising, please call 1 (303) 932-7709
for more information."

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2003 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites
if they credit the Newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to
keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE
ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.


George A. Filer www.GeorgeFiler.com/










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   Dec > Dec 11

             Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:23:49 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:56:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:57:02 -0500
>Subject: Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions

<snip>

>I don't think mentioning _anybody's_ name, Jesus or whoever,
>would have stopped what happened to her and her mom that night.
>Ditto for me and for many other cases I can quote from.

>Let's make a distinction between those who are 'imagining' they
>are being abducted and those who are ACTUALLY being abducted and
>this thread will suddenly begin to make some sense. I resent the
>lack of distinction between the two here in this thread.

John, it would be of interest to know religious backgrounds of
abductees. Has anyone got stats on this?


Best,

Greg







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   Dec > Dec 11

                  NASA Spacecraft To Explore Jupiter Moons

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:57:21 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:41:43 -0500
Subject: NASA Spacecraft To Explore Jupiter Moons



Source: Yahoo News

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=624&ncid=753&e=10&u=/ap/20031209
/ap_on_sc/icy_moons

Tue Dec 9, 8:37 AM ET

NASA Spacecraft to Explore Jupiter Moons

By Andrew Bridges, AP Science Writer

SAN FRANCISCO - NASA (news - web sites) plans to dispatch a
hulking nuclear-powered spacecraft to determine whether three of
Jupiter's icy, planet-sized moons have the potential to harbor
life.

The Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter, or Jimo, would spend monthlong
stints circling the moons Callisto, Europa and Ganymede, which
are believed to have vast oceans tucked beneath thick covers of
ice.

The unmanned craft, far larger and more powerful than any other
sent to explore the outer solar system, would spend years
studying the moons' makeup, geologic history and potential for
sustaining life, as well as Jupiter itself.

Besides water, the moons appear to contain two other ingredients
necessary for life: energy and the right chemicals. Along with
Mars, they are considered the most likely places to have
extraterrestrial life within our solar system.

"We don't know if life is there. But this mission will allow to
ask that question with some pretty sound tools," said
Christopher McKay of the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration's Ames Research Center.

Jimo won't launch until at least 2011. On Monday, scientists at
the fall meeting of the American Geophysical Union briefed
reporters on the mission's progress.

The spacecraft would be the first in a series of robotic NASA
probes that rely on uranium-fueled fission reactors to generate
large amounts of electricity. While probes such as Galileo and
Cassini have made do with hundreds of watts of electricity, Jimo
might have thousands of watts to power its thrusters and
instruments, said Torrence Johnson of NASA's Jet Propulsion
Laboratory.

The reactor conceivably could produce enough electricity to
power several U.S. homes. That could provide Jimo a hundredfold
boost over previous missions in the amount of data it would be
able to beam back to Earth.

Jimo would carry high-resolution cameras and other instruments,
including radar and lasers to map the thickness and elevation of
the ice that envelops each moon.

Scientists are keen to study the Jovian system because of its
complexity. The planet and its stable of moons represent, in
many ways, a miniature solar system.

"These are worlds in their own right," said Ron Greeley, of
Arizona State University, Tempe.

The spacecraft is envisioned as being 60 to 100 feet in length.
Early conceptions place its nuclear reactor at the end of a boom
to shield the scientific instruments from radiation.

Jimo also would bristle with fins to dissipate the intense heat
from its reactor.

NASA is expected to begin stepping up use of nuclear power in
its exploration of the solar system, including Mars. There, it
could power rovers capable of roaming the planet for years at a
time.









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              Colorful Geminid Meteor Shower Comes This Weekend

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:05:26 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:15:44 -0500
Subject: Colorful Geminid Meteor Shower Comes This Weekend



Source: Atlantic City Press

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/columns/120903SCHAAF.html

December 9, 2003

Colorful Geminid meteor shower comes this weekend

By Fred Schaaf For The Press

Now is the season for giving gifts. Weather permitting, the
heavens themselves will be giving all of us a wonderful present
this weekend - the Geminid meteor shower.

Meteors - also called "shooting stars" and "falling stars" - are
the streaks of light caused when a piece of space rock or dust
hurtles into our atmosphere at speeds as fast as 140,000 mph and
burns up from friction. Usually the particle burns up completely
when it is still at least 50 miles above the Earth's surface -
only one meteor in many millions reaches the ground to become a
"meteorite."

On certain nights each year, Earth passes near the dust-strewn
orbits of old comets. On those nights, we see a meteor shower. A
meteor shower is an enhanced number of meteors all seeming to
shoot out from a particular spot among the constellations, a spot
called a "radiant."

This weekend, the big shower has its radiant in the constellation
Gemini the Twins, so its meteors are called the Geminids, or
offspring of Gemini.

Why do the meteors in a shower all appear to emanate from one
part of the sky, even though the particles enter our atmosphere
on more or less parallel paths? It is really just an effect of
perspective that we get whenever we view parallel things coming
to us from a distance.

Other examples include railroad rails seeming to diverge from a
point in the distance and snowflakes seeming to diverge from a
point ahead us when we drive through a snowstorm.

Let's hope there are no snowstorms Saturday or Sunday night. The
greatest number of Geminids would usually be seen in the middle
of the night, but a very bright moon rises around 9 p.m. Saturday
and 10 p.m. Sunday to greatly reduce the number of visible Geminids.

However, quite a few Geminids will be visible earlier each
evening. If the sky is very clear and you are many miles from
city lights, you might see about 20 Geminids in the final hour
before moonrise. Better yet, many Geminids are bright and
colorful. Some give us bursts and explosions (these are called
bolides) and you might see a Geminid "fireball," a meteor
brighter than Venus.

By the way, between 6 and 7 p.m., we might also be treated to a
few Geminid "earthgrazers." Earthgrazers are usually bright and
long-pathed meteors that occur when the radiant of a meteor
shower is rising.

Later on Saturday and Sunday evening, you can try counting how
many Geminids you see in an hour or half-hour (it's fun to do
this with a friend, but make certain each person keeps a separate
tally).

Geminids may appear anywhere in the sky. But their paths will all
point back toward the radiant in Gemini, located increasingly
high in the east during the evening. Count separately any meteors
you see come from other directions.

Remember to dress as warm as you possibly can. City dwellers will
see far fewer total meteors but could still catch the bright
ones. Write to me if you observe the Geminids.









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   Dec > Dec 11

                     Re: Secret KGB UFO Files - Martinho

From: Jeferson Martinho <jeff@vigilia.com.br>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:19:28 -0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:10:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Secret KGB UFO Files - Martinho


>From: Sergej Dubrovin <dubrovinsergej@hotmail.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:13:20 +0100
>Subject: Re: Secret KGB UFO Files

>>From: Thierry Jonnaert <thierry.jonnaert@pandora.be>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 01:40:16 +0100
>>Subject: Secret KGB UFO Files

>>More interesting information about the secret KGB UFO files:

>>http://www.para-normal.com/nuke/html/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=
48

>More about these 'secret' files:

>http://borshurinov.narod.ru/ufindex.htm

>http://borshurinov.narod.ru/uftnt/tnt2.htm

>http://borshurinov.narod.ru/uftnt3-4/tnt3-4.htm

>http://borshurinov.narod.ru/uftnt3-4/tnt3-4.htm

>Hoaxes without any doubt.


Hi Folks!

I have an Internet Portal about Ufology here in Brazil, a
pioneer and one of the most respected, because of our
journalistic approach:

http://www.vigilia.com.br

When the 'Secret KGB UFO Files' was aired, we conducted real,
independent, analysis. We had those images, examined, in the
same room, at the same time, by an expert video producer (who
gave us support with his hi-tech equipment and great experience
in production of commercial and instituional films), a
specialist from the Brazilian National Institute for the
Research of the Space (INPE), and a journalist the late Eduardo
Castor, author of columns in some of most important periodicals
in Brazil and an expert in the Russian language.

This gathering _fully_ deconstructed the footage, showing camera
inconsistencies (like a shadow of a modern camera!) and other
problems.....

The report is here:

http://www.vigilia.com.br/sessao.php?categ=0&id=215

Unfortunately, we only have this text in Portuguese. However, if
some of our colleagues care to use an on-line translator they
can get a good idea of the content.


Best regards,

Jeferson Martinho
Portal/Revista Vigilia - Editor
http://www.vigilia.com.br







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   Dec > Dec 11

                Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 10:18:33 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:24:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs -


>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To:  ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 22:29:48 -0400
>Subject: Re: Wild Bill Donovan, Vannevar Bush & UFOs

<snip>

>If indeed there was some connection with Donovan to some
>classifed project concerning UFOs both during or following the
>war, I can't see Stephenson not being in that loop, first with
>the BSI at the time and of course Canadian intelligence. It's
>interesting to note as well that Stephenson was the only non-
>American to receive an award from the CIA back in [I believe-
>my records/references are in storage] 1970. I've always been
>fascinated by what intelligence connections there had to be
>between the US and Canada both during the war and after due to
>the "Intrepid"/Donovan connection. And how little is known about
>them.


Good Day Don & The Gang,

I have always been fascinated by the "Truman era" and the
"emergence of the intelligence community" alone, and doubly so
in relationship to the UFO phenomenon.

It's no secret that during the UFO flap of 1947, "Russians" was
one of the first words uttered out of Military Intelligence.
Some may say that given the validity of what crashed near
Roswell, and  if earlier similar instances took place, e.g.,
Cape Girardeau, The Battle of LA etc., why then would we "look
at Russia" at all given the obvious "nonterrestial origin" of
said craft?

My theory is that before 1947, before a civilian "Intelligence
Agency," before a "common analyzation point" the separate
"military intelligence units" e.g., G-2, ONI, CIC etc., were
like "puppies at the food dish!" Intelligence wasn't "easily
shared."

Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est - Knowledge is power! Some
would ask, "how can this be given the importance of various
intelligence matters?" The answer is "politics!" Presidents and
administrations come and go - they are only temporary renters of
the "White House." (Many in the military and or intelligence
agencies go through several administrations). The afore
mentioned separate MI units seemed to be very competitive.
Though the FBI isn't an "intelligence agency" by mandate, they
have, and did perform intelligence work, particularly doing the
war; in reading many of the "declassified FBI docs" one can
easily see the "competitive, protective and almost arrogant
attitude that Hoover and his cronies had.

All that said it doesn't surprise me, That the "powers-that-be"
at the time, weren't completely "in the know." So exploring "the
Russian connection" in regards to all the "unconventional craft"
flying all over the country seemed prevalent. Moreover, for
those that did "know the whole picture," the next "logical
question" in my humble opinion, is, "if these "flying discs"
that are ET spacecraft are falling out of the sky in this
country, are they falling over the Soviet Union as well?" If so,
and the odds are likely (from an intelligence point of view)
since the "flying discs" were being reported all over the world,
then do the Russians have one in their possession, and how long
have they? What will the repercussions be in terms of Soviet
Technological advancement? Are the Soviets talking to our
visitors? Are the visitors making friends with our enemy? Etc.,
etc.

Now, from that point of view - it seems that "obtaining
'intelligence' on Russia" would have been imperative. Quite
frankly, after the war, intelligence on Russia was slim pickens;
therefore the most data would have been "from the war," and the
best source of course was the OSS a la "Wild Bill Donovan!"

It seems only natural to me that he would be a member of a
secret committee in regards to gathering "intelligence" on
Russia; and the other scientific members, i.e., Bush and Compton
validates, in my mind, the UFO involvement.

Since Donovan made a habit about procuring "old friends and
assets" it would be no surprise to me that "Stephenson" would
have been tapped for assistance. Again, let's not forget that
UFO's did not restrict their flight over this country. If they
didn't have a downed craft in their possession, the Brits as
well as Canadians would naturally assume these craft were either
ours or belonging to the Russians - but their questions and the
need for intelligence would be the same.


Regards,

Frank Warren









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                     Re: UFOs Inter-Dimensional - Wilson

From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:40:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:33:41 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Inter-Dimensional - Wilson


>From: John Pursel <tiroch@sympatico.ca>
>Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 18:43:58 -0500
>Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:34:11 -0500
>Subject: UFOs Inter-Dimensional

>[New-Subscriber --ebk]

>I have been in and out of UFO since 35 years. Right now I am a
>bit in. Spending my time on NASA probable deceits and Planet-X
>as to if it exist and whether the VLT array ever did look at the
>Moon for Lander artifacts which NASA was to have funded for
>4/'03 look.

>After cruising through the posts I see a lot of conflict and
>dissension. Of course the UFO topic generates this kind of
>dialogue. There are believers, unbelievers and those not sure.

>Well I have decided that UFOs are real. That these materialize
>From another dimension +5. That these vibrate (exist) at a ULF
>or VLF frequency just below visible light and adjust frequency
>when wishing to be visible. That these use a magnetic/anti-
>gravity drive sourcing fuel from our Earth's magnetic net or
>power grids. That non-humans operate the machines. That
>residence is in another universe in Dimension X. That these will
>play with us until the operators/controllers decide it is time
>to get serious.


Welcome John:

Speaking as someone who has had life-long interaction with these
Beings, I agree with your idea that they, or some of them, are
interdimensional. I think it explains why sometimes abductees
can "feel" or "sense" them right next to them, but not actually
see them. My limited knowledge of physics tells me that we exist
at one frequency and if someone else is existing at another,
perhaps higher frequency, you will not be able to see them.

>Meanwhile we argue, agree, write, talk and suppose until an
>event happens that the Government cannot hide. Why ever is it
>that no event has ever been able to get around the Government
>and be believed by the masses as really, really real? Why is
>that? The media? So-called scientific experts trashing it?
>Politicians out of the loop? What?

I think the masses have been, for lack of better terms,
manipulated, lied to and conditioned by our government and the
media, not to easily accept or believe that anything other than
what they can see, feel, touch and dissect is real. Our
Government has a long history of both ridiculing this subject
and covering it up.

One example comes to my mind:

When there is a "blatant" sighting and many people witness it,
suddenly the military decides to go to the same exact area and
put on a flare show or fly one of their billion dollar planes in
the area the next night or shortly thereafter:


"Oh - it was us all the time." That is one way to "hide" or
manipulate a true sighting that a lot of people might witness.


It will take something much larger than a sighting in one city
to convince people. Perhaps simultaneous sightings worldwide of
the same type of craft being sighted for an extended period of
time? That might get it through people's minds that this is
real.

Of course, everyone in the World would then know that "they" are
"real" except people in the United States. Most of our media is
"owned" by businesses who control and censor content and / or
work for / with the U.S. Government.

Do you really believe that (CNN) "Censorship News Network" or
(FOX) "Fascist Oxymoron Xenophobes" would actually air video of
a known alien craft?

Hummmm..... <smiles>

Katharina Wilson

http://www.alienjigsaw.com








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   Dec > Dec 11

                Researcher Reports More Sightings - 12-10-03

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:11:50 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:48:36 -0500
Subject: Researcher Reports More Sightings - 12-10-03


Source: The Airdrie Echo - Alberta, Canada

http://www.airdrieecho.com/story.php?id=3D83255

December 10, 2003

Researcher Reports More Sightings

Paul Wells
Echo Editor

Airdrie Echo =97 Two recent Airdrie Echo articles on UFO sightings
in and around Airdrie continue to spur on other residents to
come forward with their stories of strange lights in the sky.

And although he=92s investigated thousands of sighting reports
over the years, Canadian UFO researcher Brian Vike says the
local response has been somewhat unusual.

"It is really interesting to see what has been coming in from
your area," said Vike, director of British Columbia-based HBCC
UFO Research. "What is really interesting is that other papers
have run articles and I never heard a peep about any sightings
coming in, so to me this shows that people are seeing strange
things in certain areas, such as yours."

Here are the most recent reports from the Airdrie area that Vike
has received.

Airdrie
Date: Sept. 15, 2003
Time: 11:20 p.m.

"The witness=92 e-mail is below: I also called the witness in
Airdrie to gather more information on this sighting. My report
after talking to her is below also," Vike said.

"A week before the first article came out in the Airdrie Echo
newspaper about sightings, I came home from work about 11:20
p.m. and I let the dogs outside and I was also watching a few
northern lights off my deck," said the witness in her e-mail. "I
live on the east side of Airdrie ... so we have a hill behind my
place with a walkway that goes towards the highway. I looked
over to my left toward the west =96 and I know what I saw =96 it was
a big circle of lights twirling around and hovering on the
walkway and then it just went down, not up. I grabbed my dogs
and headed into the house. The next week, I read the article in
the paper."

Vike said that during his phone conversation with the witness,
more information was gathered.

"The witness said it could not have been children twirling
lights as, for one thing, the circle of lights was very large in
size, plus she could not see anyone in the area," Vike said. She
also compared the size to a 10- or 12-foot round C-Band
satellite dish. She explained that it looked to her as if it was
a ring-shaped object with a lot of white lights running all
around the outside of it. She also said it appeared that there
was not just one set of lights, but layers of them.

Airdrie
Date: Early July 2000
Time: Late evening

According to Vike, "A gentleman called to file a report. He
first told me he lives in the next town north of Airdrie
(Crossfield). Back in the year 2000, he was living in Calgary
and they had just purchased a home north of Airdrie. The fellow
works evenings, so one night when he finished off his shift at
work, he asked a good friend if he wanted to take a drive and
have a look at his new home he had purchased. He told me it was
a beautiful evening and they decided to take the trip to look at
the new home. They headed out, both men discussing the distance
they would be travelling from Calgary to the new home. The
driver thought they would be travelling some 40 kilometers, but
his friend thought it would be a little further than that. The
driver hit the button on the odometer, which set it at zero
kilometers. This way they would know just how far they were
about to travel one way. The two men arrived safely at their
destination and had a look around and took some time talking. It
was starting to get later into the evening, so they thought it
best to get back on the road heading towards home. The passenger
in the vehicle mentioned to the driver that he had in-laws
living in Airdrie and would it be OK if they swung by to show
the driver their home. As they drove along the highway outside
of Airdrie, the driver noticed some very bright lights coming up
from behind them. The lights were very bright, and as the
passenger turned around to look he commented on the brightness
and how fast the lights were approaching them. Both men,
thinking this was a vehicle, never gave it a lot of thought,
other than these lights were almost blinding to the driver.

"Now here is where the story takes a strange twist. All of a
sudden the fellows came upon a large sign. It read Country Hills
Boulevard, which is the first exit to Calgary. What is puzzling
is that from when the strange lights came up from behind them
and to the sign which read Country Hills Boulevard, there is a
possibility that some time had gone missing. Both men do not
recall driving through Airdrie at all. The driver took a look at
the odometer and he noticed they may be missing 20 kilometers.
As he mentioned to me, he never gave any of this much thought,
but did find it rather strange. The driver also said he has
driven this stretch of highway many times and nothing like this
has ever taken place. I asked the man if he or his friend had
ever had any vivid dreams and he said no. As far as he knows,
nothing out of the ordinary has happened to him other than this
one strange event. The driver did mention that his friend did
lose a little sleep over the experience."

For more information, contact Vike at HBCC UFO Research=92s toll
free at 1-866-262-1989 or by e-mail at: hbccufo@telus.net







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               Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:19:48 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:50:39 -0500
Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Gehrman


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:27:17 -0800
>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>From: William Scott Scherk <wss@uniserve.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:28:54 -0800
>>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

<snip>

>The USAF came out with their infamous "Case
>Closed" time-traveling crash dummy explanation for alien bodies,
>and Col. Philip Corso also came out with his equally infamous
>"Day After Roswell", supposedly "pro-Roswell," but possibly a
>case of stealth debunkery because it was so full of obviously
>inaccurate BS and exaggerated claims.


David,

Source: http://www.caus.org/membercomments/mc062900.shtml

Blunders do not make a hoaxer or a liar. Col. Corso would have
to be both if he didn't seed alien technology into US business,
as he says he did. The *Day After Roswell* is about that fact
and is not intended as a history of the cold war and shouldn't
be read in that way. It comes down to whether you believe he was
trying to tell the truth, not whether he produced a mistake free
document. Col. Corso's testimony is primary source material and
should be treated as such, just as we use diaries and old
letters to understand the dynamics of the Civil War. There's
absolutely no reason to believe that Col. Corso is a liar.

He may have make numerous mistakes, but his testimony concerning
the seeding of alien technology is a lie or it's the truth. It
is certainly not a "mistake". Was he telling the truth about
that or wasn't he? If he wasn't, then he's a liar and a fake.
It's that issue that we all need to wrestle with. It's not
enough to insist that he made some mistakes, therefore he
shouldn't be believed. The mistakes have become red herrings
pulled across our path to distract us from the important
information Col.Corso has bravely given us.

I have no proof that Col. Corso is telling the truth other than
my knowledge that he was an honorable and truthful person, a
super patriot and well respected by his peers.

(He also passed a three hour Voice Stress Analysis taken from a
taped interview on Art bell)

He has no history of being deceitful or of perpetrating hoaxes.
He held responsible positions in the service of our country and
was a good friend and advisor to some of the most important and
powerful people in the country from 1945 on to the present.

By all accounts he was fair, scrupulously honest and an all
around good Joe.

When he states that our government has seeded alien technology
into the US business community and that he should know because
he was the person who accomplished the task, I believe him. He
had no reason to lie and there is no evidence that he has done
so in the past.


Ed







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                   Re: Drake Equation Naeye Sayer - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:55:36 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:34:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Drake Equation Naeye Sayer - Hatch


>From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:56:44 -0600
>Subject: Re: Drake Equation Naeye Sayer

<snip>

>With all the talk in the astronomy field about "dark energy" and
>how it supposedly comprises such a large percentage of stuff in
>the universe, I wonder if it might have field properties of some
>kind. Anybody know if the people studying dark energy have
>figured out whether or not it could be modulated or in some
>other way used for communication? Anybody? Anybody?

>Then there's the anomalous information transmission stuff.
>Whatever non-EM field that uses.

>Still, just because we haven't found anything definitive yet is
>no reason to stop looking. It's not like there's a time limit on
>this research. We've been trying to communicate with the heavens
>since day one. We're probably never going to stop, because you
>can't prove a negative. You can't prove there's _not_ something
>or someone out there.


Hi Tim:

Good question!

I would like to know all about the properties of dark matter and
dark energy, so much discussed recently.  If all of this is
unknown, or highly speculative at best, then we should know that
at least.


Best

- Larry








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             Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case! -

From: Ken Kelly <elprospero@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:48:58 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:04:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case! -


>From: Marcos Malvezzi Leal <malvezzil@ig.com.br>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Subject: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case!
>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 07:52:59 -0200

>Unlike the infamous so-called "Barra da Tijuca" incident, in
>which a supposed UFO photograph was proven as an undeniable
>hoax,

Sir:

Please cite the evidence you have in support of the several
"Barra da Tijuca" photographs being hoaxed. Otherwise your
opinion is unworthy of consideration.

Ken Kelly







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                        Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Lewis

From: SMiles Lewis <miles@elfis.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 23:37:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:14:04 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets' - Lewis


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 18:03:31 -0000
>Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets'

>>From: Stephen MILES Lewis <ufoupdates@elfis.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:14:19 -0600
>>Subject: Re: 'Strange Secrets'

>>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:34:44 -0000
>>>Subject: 'Strange Secrets'

>><snip>

>>>Naturally Andrew, it does beg one rather obvious question. Why
>>>would the US government go to all that trouble involving
>>>expense, bad press, financial loss to their beloved farmers,
>>>intense media interest, the risk of getting caught and so on,
>>>just to carry out what would be a perfectly acceptable health
>>>check on domestic cattle? Gee, they could even set up their own
>>>faux wholesale company and buy the cattle in, without raising an
>>>eyebrow. It is so stupid a conclusion that it beggars belief.

>><snip>

>>Remember the NIDS report ...

>>Unexplained Cattle Deaths and the Emergence of a Transmissible
>>Spongiform Encephalopathy (TSE) Epidemic in North America, (1.6
>>MB)

>>http://216.128.67.116/pdf/cattledeaths_tse_epidemic.pdf

>>On why the bodies are left ...

><snip>

>Stephen,

Please, call me Miles or SMiles - I've never gone by my first name.

>I have now read the NIDS report and you do a fine job of
>precising the main points. A few observations.

>I don't believe it's equitable in this issue to just address the
>"What's happened" and to blatantly leave out the "who dunnit".
>I'm not for one minute rejecting their paper or hypothesis and
>would in fact suggest that it is probably the most authoritative
>opinion ever put forward on this subject. And given NIDS
>standards, they may have felt they had no reliable evidence to
>complete the whole picture. Nevertheless, it is disappointing
>that they could not have gone further.

Maybe, but I'm amazed they went so far as to make predictions
about outbreaks and suggesting the food supply may be
contaminated.

>They do "teeter" a bit, don't they? I mean by that they do get
>very close to the edge. There's a few things thrown in there to
>give hope to those who believe in a extraterrestrial dimension
>to this. The March 10th.1997 incident in NE Utah (the one I
>believe Eleanor White was referring to in her post) was truly
>weird and has an extremely High Strangeness aspect. Also,
>pinpointing Soccorro (at the northern end of White Sands) and
>Dulce of all places as high intensity mutilation spots, well
>away from the core centre of these incidents, only adds fuel to
>the fire (I'm just popping upstairs for a bite deer!).

Well, NIDS is allegedly trying to practice science and that
should include publishing all reports.

>I notice that they comment that taking samples from the tonsils
>of live elk for these diseases will lead to an increase in false
>negatives. They don't explain how or why but imply that in
>order for these tests to be conclusive, the animal must be
>killed. Are you in a position to clarify this?

I'm definitely not in a position to clarify.

>They remove the American government from complicity, which I'm
>fine with. So the carcasses are left as a warning? By the
>Alzheimers Support Group? By disaffected cattlemen? But the
>moment the Argentineans get involved, the "troop" moves down
>there and the pattern repeats. So it sounds like a freelance
>lot, hiring out their expertise. Can I put you on the spot and
>ask if you have any opinion yourself on whom might be carrying
>out these acts?

I've really no idea what human agency might be behind the
mutliations.

Besides NIDS scientific approach I entertain more
parapsychological perspectives like those described by my friend
David Perkins and the work of Peter Jordan; see below ...

Perkins, David. Altered Steaks: a Colloquium on the Cattle
Mutilation Question, participants: David Perkins (aka "Izzy
Zane"), Lewis MacAdams, Tom Clark, (Santa Barbara, Calif.: Am
Here Books/Immediate Editions, 1982). This book is hard to find.

The UC Santa Barbara library has a copy in the Special
Collections (PS3553.L29 Z3, 1982 Special Col)

http://www.NUFOC.net/nufoc38/perkins.htm

Excluded Middle - No UFO Connection To Cattle Mutilation
http://www.ExcludedMiddle.com/catlmut.htm


SMiles








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                      Reports From HBCC UFO - 12-10-03

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:17:04 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:16:26 -0500
Subject: Reports From HBCC UFO - 12-10-03


Hi List

There are some other reports I have neen made aware of in my
area, but no one has come forward to report what was witnessed,
but since I happen to know who these people are. I will give
them a call tomorrow.



Houston, British Columbia

Date:  December 8, 2003
Time:  approx: 8:45 p.m.

I was stopped today in the mall and pulled off to the side. A
lady who I know very well wanted to tell me about something she
and her husband and two children witnessed on December 8, 2003
at approx: 8:45 p.m.

Her husband had just picked her up from a friends house and they
arrived back home shortly after. They pulled into their long
driveway only to see the two kids standing outside yelling and
pointed towards the mountain behind their home. The husband
stopped the car quickly and both parents jumped out in fear as
they had no idea what was wrong, thinking the worst. They almost
immediately noticed a white oval shaped object sitting
stationary over the back of their property.

The oval shaped object had a solid ring of blue lights which
seemed to be moving around the white colored object. A slight
and annoying hum could be heard coming from it. The Mother went
over and grabbed the two children and went into the house with
them, Dad followed close behind. They thought it would be safer
than standing outside as they had no idea what is was they were
looking at. Once inside the home, they proceeded to a back
bedroom, closed the door behind them as not to allow any light
from inside the home to give away where they were. (feeling
frightened at this time)

But still curiosity was getting the best of them. So they
watched the object, still sitting in the exact spot from when
they first noted it. The family told me the trees which were
below it were all lit up in a white light, and for a good
distance around the area. After a total of approx: 4 minutes of
watching this unusual craft, it slowly started to move. As it
did so the witnesses claimed they could see sparks dropping off
the bottom side of it. The sparks were reported to be a white in
color. They told me that there was no quick moment to the
object, it just rose up rather slowly and as it reached the top
of the mountain this is where they lost sight of it. The craft
did not blink out, they thought it just crossed over the top and
maybe moved down the other side. They reported that whatever it
was, was huge.

The husband told me it was not a helicopter, no way !! He said
we were very close to this thing, and what noise it gave off was
minimal, except for this consent humming sound. The husband also
said area residents would have been blind not to see this as it
was so bright and large in size.

HBCC UFO Note: After I talked with the witness in the mall I
made arrangements and did go to visit the whole family earlier
today. I sat with all of them for a long period of time and I
can say this for certain. I believe they saw something really
strange as everyone was still very excited over what they saw
that evening. I also will be going back tomorrow to look around
the area where this object was reported to be hovering.

---------

Airdie, Alberta

Date:  September 6,2003
Time:  4:00 p.m.

Hello Vike,

I have been reading in the paper about recent UFO??? sightings
seen around Airdrie. I would like to tell you about what I saw
back on September 6, 2003.

I had just arrived home after attending the Fall Classic Show &
Shine at the Nose Creek Park. It was 4:00 p.m. in the afternoon.
I was looking out my livingroom window, which faces east. My
home is situated (deleted) of the tracks, in (deleted by HBCC
UFO). I noticed a white, completely perfect round sphere going
in a  northerly direction. It was definatly NOT a balloon. There
was no string attached and it was perfectly round, as balloons
are not.  It stayed at a constant speed and was completely
unaffected by wind currents. It may have been going about 30-
50km./hr. It stayed at the exact same height. I watched it until
it disappeared out of sight. I felt like it may have been
following along main street, however it may not have been. It
was also difficult to tell the size at that distance, but it may
have been larger that a beach ball. I have never seen anything
like it in my life. Has anyone else mentioned this to you? I
would be curious to know if I was the only one who saw it.

Thank you,

Thank you to the witness for the report.


Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com







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                    Re: Congress and Disclosure - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:34:32 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:57:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure - Fleming


>From: Francis Knize <Frankknee@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:33:10 EST
>Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure -

>Choose one good Data Quality Act inquiry to pursue based on your
>best research concerning Mars photographic anomalies. There are
>many now in NASA  who would support an honest effort for SETI
>Research.

The NASA "National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA)
Guidelines for Ensuring the Quality of Information" can be
downloaded from:

http://www.thecre.com/pdf/20021026_nasa-final.pdf

As far as I can tell from reading this document, it would be
futile to pursue corrections of misleading information
disseminated by NASA using the Data Quality Act because of the
vast amount of information that NASA claims is exempt from the
act. The exemptions are stated in Section C.3 of the document.

One of the most debilitating exemptions is information "produced
in responses to requests for Agency records under the Freedom of
Information Act, the Privacy Act, the Federal Advisory Committee
Act, or similar laws".

This apparently means that NASA feels it would not be obligated
to correct or explain the phony time stamps on the STS-48 video,
which is made available to the public _only_ through the Freedom
of Information Act and was never otherwise publicly
disseminated. (The FOIA apparently gives the public a right to
as much bogus information as the government wants to provide
them - a right for which we should all be grateful).

Another critical exemption is: "Communications such as press
releases or press conferences, interviews, speeches, fact
sheets, or similar communications in any medium that announce,
support the announcement, or give public notice of information
that NASA has disseminated elsewhere."

This exemption apparently means that NASA' enhancement of the
1998 Mars Face image or web article on the April 2001 image,
'Unmasking the Face On Mars," with its false and misleading
claims about the resolution of elevation measurements of the
Mars Observer Laser Altimeter that was used to create the
thoroughly bogus "3D perspective" presented in the same article.
All of this stuff appeared as press releases.

These DQA "guidelines" in essence seem to imply that NASA
reserves the right to mislead the public when they see fit to do
so. It's hard to tell if there's any information at all that is
_not_ exempt from the DQA.

The only possible route around all the obstructions that the
government has put in the way of obtaining correct information
under the seems to be in the Guidelines Section C.3 paragraph
that says: "The exemption for press releases and materials
delivered to Congress exists as long as facts backing up the
original press release or information have been previously
disseminated."

So if a member of Congress were, on behalf of a constituent, to
obtain the STS-48 video, or the 'Catbox', etc., then the could
perhaps be invoked if NASA failed to provide "facts" backing up
what they've sent to the Congress member. Other than that, the
only recourse is probably to sue somebody, as the Sci- Fi
Channel is doing to get documents from NASA concerning the
Kecksburg UFO incident.

One thing that definitely will NOT work is haranguing people who
work for NASA or its contractors with private emails and public
"challenges," as Mr. Knize should have learned by now.






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                  Re: Asking Jesus For Internvention Stops

From: Katharina Wilson <K_Wilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:02:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:31:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Asking Jesus For Internvention Stops


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor@raven1.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:06:52 -0500
>Subject: Asking Jesus For Internvention Stops Abductions

>The item below outlines the experiences of some UFO abductees
>who successfully aborted their abductions by praying to Jesus
>Christ for intervention. This is consistent with the book "How
>to Defend Yourself Against Alien Abduction", by Ann Druffel,
>which I'm currently reading.

>What I find very interesting are the few UFO contactees who
>report that the aliens encourage prayer. This could mean that
>the aliens are well aware of God and see themselves as
>accountable to God as well. Perhaps that is why the "Appeal to
>spiritual personages" method described in Ms. Druffel's book
>works. Here below is the forwarded email item.


Hi Eleanor:

I always find your posts interesting. About Jesus and
abductions:

I knew an abductee who was Catholic and during an abduction,
this person started praying to Jesus to protect them. The
alien's face (which I believe was hovering or bending over the
abductee while they wre lying on their back in bed) said to her,

"He is one of us."

On the flip side - I have used some of Ann Druffel's suggestions
and although it takes [me at least] an enormous amount of
energy, it seemed to work, but not all of the time.

One last thing, in my book (Alien Jigsaw) I had a journal entry
where the ETs were showing me a being dying and they seemed to
be very aware that we should or that we do pray for one's soul
as they die or after the die.

Just some FYIs to share.

Katharina Wilson

http://www.alienjigsaw.com








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             Re: NASA Faces Lawsuit In Kecksburg UFO Incident -

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:45:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:18:57 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA Faces Lawsuit In Kecksburg UFO Incident -


>From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
>To: ufo upDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:11:10 -0200
>Subject: NASA Faces Lawsuit In Kecksburg UFO Incident

>Source: WPXI-TV Pittsburgh Pennsylvania

>http://www.wpxi.com/news/2695297/detail.html

>Many Residents Believe UFO Landed In Kecksburg

>December 10, 2003

>Kecksburg, Pa. -- NASA is facing a lawsuit to get it to release
>what it knows about claims of a UFO landing in Westmoreland
>County. Many residents in Kecksburg believe an acorn-shaped UFO
>landed there 38 years ago, including expert Stan Gordon. "I'm
>convinced that an object of unknown origin definitely fell from
>the sky and was recovered by the military. What the object was
>still is open for speculation," he said.

>Gordon thinks it was possibly part of a Russian space probe. A
>representative for NASA said he can't comment on the lawsuit.

Reality Check:

Did reading this post make anybody else do a Homer Simpson and
go, "D'oh!"

>Gordon thinks it was possibly part of a Russian space probe.

If Gordon thinks it was all a part of the recovery of a Russian
space probe... then what was the point of this whole exercise?

Am I misreading this statement from Gordon somehow? Is it a
misquote? I thought that _he_ thought that it was a UFO.
(Homina, homina, homina.)

Hey man, I don't want to criticize CFI/Sci-Fi channel too much.
In spite of the piss-poor UFO-related programming, and now this
apparent waste of time and resources, they -have- put together a
'rapid response' team to conduct preliminary investigation into
UFO reports, and they are funding a wonderful website that is
being worked on as we speak by my trusted and respected buddy,
Steven Kaeser. (I'll let him say more about this new website
when he's ready to.) So, I really don't want to completely
dismiss the efforts being made by CFI and the Sci-Fi channel
people.

But for crying out loud, why all the fuss if the main
investigator suspected that it was a Russian probe all along!
Again if I'm missing something here. I await
correction/education on the matter.


Regards to All,

John Velez
Confused UpDates Listerion








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               Re: Vernon British Columbia - 11-30-03 - Frison

From: Gene Frison <GeneFrison@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:25:06 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:02:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Vernon British Columbia - 11-30-03 - Frison


>From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
>To: "UFO Updates" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:44:31 -0800
>Subject: Vernon British Columbia - 11-30-03

>Vernon, British Columbia

>Date: November 30, 2003
>Time:  4:45 p.m.

>Hello Brian

>On November 30. Sunday at 4:45 p.m. I was watching a bright
>white light hovering low in the south west horizon. It was in
>the wrong place for Venus. A few minutes of observation and I
>knew it wasn't a plane or a helicopter. At about 4:50 it was
>slowly moving toward the west. It remained a bright white light.
>A few minutes later and I watched it descend into the trees on
>the hill directly south of Vernon airport. Through the binos I
>watched it disappear from sight, and the bottom of the light
>"seemed" to turn orange red as if it was shutting down.

>Then just over the lake my eye caught strobing lights moving too
>fast for a small plane about to land.I saw an  "orb ascend
>quickly"  towards (sort of) the north from the lake and in the
>binoculars it seemed to go right by a plane heading southwest.

>The plane was low (approx. 15,000 ft) with its wing lights
>on.The orb had pink strobing lights but was barely visible to
>the naked eye.The orb reminded me of the globes that appear when
>Ghosts are filmed. Nebulous but there.The sky was still in its
>final colors of sunset, though the sun was long gone.

>Wow. was I excited. take care

>Thank you to the witness for the report.

>Brian Vike
>Director HBCC UFO Research

>Vernon, British Columbia

>Date:  December 3, 2003
>Time:  4:45 p.m.

>Hi Brian

>December 3 at 4:45 p.m. the bright white light appeared over the
>hill south of the airport. The sky was clear after sunset. It
>hovered and sparkled. A red sphere flashed by going south. My
>neighbor came out on his balcony for a cigarette. The white
>light hovered. When he went in it started it's  vertical decent.
>It went down very slowly a bit at a time until it disappeared in
>the trees, at 500 p.m.

>It is difficult to describe the light. In the binoculars it has
>strobing red and other colours but white is the predominant one.
>It is white hot like a sparkler and hard to tell size or shape.
>I find it hard to believe that no one else has reported this as
>it is predominant in the sw sky and by the airport. It went down
>just before a jet landed. There is a population density around
>the airport and surrounding hills, and again I can't be the only
>one who sees this.

>The behavior of the light suggests that some people at a glance
>would view it as a star or a one spotlight plane on approach. It
>makes no sudden moves, as it moves in increments. This is a
>wonder-full event, lasting 20 minutes, from when I start viewing
>it.

>Thank you to the witness for the report.


>Brian Vike
>Director HBCC UFO Research

2003.12.11

Dear Brian and List:

Going back to your earlier e-mails regarding this sighting
(apparently which extends into more than one sighting over a
number of different nights), your witness states that the light
being watched is situated low in the SW, which is exactly where
Venus is visible at - low in the SW at dusk. Thus, it is hard to
accept the claim made by the witness that the light was in the
wrong place for Venus. Venus is, indeed, smack dab right in the
portion of sky where the mystery light was observed precisely at
the same time over several nights acting exactly like a setting
celestial body. The light's punctuality, description, behavior,
position, time of appearance and disappearance, and line of
motion ALL make it consistent with one of the setting planets or
stars known to be in that area of sky at that time.

The above description of the light when viewed through
binoculars by the witness is a classic description of what
happens when a star or planet is viewed through non-astronomical
binoculars - particularly the red patch at the bottom. I know of
sighting reports made by police officers who viewed stars
through non-astronomical binoculars and provided the exact same
description as your witness, and who were fooled into believing
a star or planet was much more than it actually was. Because
non-astronomical binoculars don't have appropriate color
correction, the above distortion occurs when viewing stars and
planets through them. Thus, the witness's belief that it 'shut
down' really does nothing to elevate this above simple
misinterpretation of a star or planet in the process of setting,
although I suspect that this conviction of the witness that it
did 'shut down' goes a long way towards fueling both the
witness's and investigator's opinion that this is something
mysterious. This demonstrates how an investigator's conclusions
should be based more on careful ground work than on the
witness's interpretations of what he or she believes they saw.

The other moving lights observed in the area sound suspiciously
(no, exactly) like normal air traffic - the sighting did take
place near an airport. Considering the distance and time of day,
one would expect none other than the descriptions given to
pertain to normal air traffic in the vicinity of the airport.

I communicated with Brian off-list who states that he spoke with
the witness at length on the telephone and through e-mail. I
asked what it was that the witness said which convinced him
(Brian) that the observed light could not possibly be Venus, as
Brian had said to me [quote from his e-mail to me] "But the
Vernon sighting, it was not Venus. What it was is another
question. But certainly not Venus. I spoke at length with the
witness, both by email and telephone. "To date, I have received
no reply from Brian to this question. It is significant to me
that Brian, in his e-mail to me, mentions that he did a lot of
talking to the witness via different channels about the
sightings but never indicates that he did any checking into star
charts, etc. - there is no mention of the investigation that
elimiated the numerous possible answers that presented
themselves. If this had been done, I think he would have told me
[to the effect] 'I checked such-and-such chart and found this
and this but they didn't match because...!" However, through
several e-mails, there is no mention of this - only of the
lengthy discussions with the witness. And I have asked him for
information to convince me it could not be a planet or star!

I would strongly suggest that the Vernon, BC case of Nov. 30 -
 Dec. 3, 2003 can be explained as the misidentification of a
setting planet (possibly Venus). There is nothing to justify
raising this incident into the realm of the mysterious!

What sews this up for me and is proof positive as far as I'm
concerned that this sighting report is solved as the
misinterpretation of a celestial object is this: neither Brian
nor his witness even remotely mention or consider Mercury as
relevant to the events in question. Yet Mercury is clearly
visible low in the SW at those times and sets at the time the
witness says the light disappears from view. In fact, when I
checked by entering Vernon's coordinates into my Starry Night
program on hard disk, both Venus and Mercury jumped out from the
screen at me - they were so prominent on the computer screen.
And if one checks Heavens-Above.com, the presence of both these
planets at that point in time/position is blatently obvious.
Venus and Mercury were only a couple of degrees apart! Both the
witness and the investigator clearly have missed Mercury as
being present at the sighting point and that it probably
constitutes a significant contributing factor to the sightings.

The witness claims that the light was in the wrong place for
Venus (which is not totally true) but, even if we do concede
that the witness accurately recognized the light as not Venus)
the witness does not mention Mercury, perhaps because Mercury is
wholly absent from the witness's mind and considerations. In
short, the witness does not seem to know about Mercury being
visible there too. Brian, as well, fails to make the Mercury
connection. If he had considered Mercury, one would think that
when he was assuring me in his e-mail (quoted above) that it
wasn't Venus, he would have mentioned and eliminated Mercury
too. But he didn't! No mention of it, which I think, translates
into no idea of it.

Take your pick ... either Venus or Mercury provides the likely
solution to this case. Considering the 'sparkler' comparison
made by the witness, I personally feel (in the absense of
anything to discount Venus provided by Brian or his witness)
that Venus is the more probable culprit of the two, due to its
sheer prominence and the fact that Venus looks more like a
sparkler in the evening sky than Mercury - Mercury appears to
'burn steadier'. It is possible though that the witness did
recognize Venus or did see a light that he knew was not were
Venus was supposed to be but got totally puzzled by Mercury.

Of course, now that I have presented Mercury as being present in
the area of sky where the mystery light was located, nothing
prevents the witness from now saying that it was in the wrong
place for Mercury too. I'm not saying this will occur but I have
seen cases where, when the witness was confronted with the true
answer to something misindentified, the witness back-paddled and
said [to the effect] "No, it wasn't that because I saw that too
and it wasn't the same thing" - even though it was apparent they
had missed it. They want to avoid looking foolish at not
recognizing, and making  big deal, out of a star. The important
thing is that up until now neither witness nor investigator have
mentioned Mercury despite the fact that it was right there in
the sky where the sightings took place and very close to Venus
to boot - I think this speaks volumes as to the failure of the
witness to recognize Mercury and of the investigator to solve it
through proper investigative methods. The window of opportunity
has closed regarding this now because all of this information
has been presented; the ground work should have been done right
away before this information became available to contaminate
witness and investigator.

This illustrates the danger of putting more emphasis on the
collection of UFO sighting reports rather than on the thorough,
accurate, and objective investigation of them. As Richard Hall
said in the July 2000 issue of the MUFON UFO JOURNAL, "The work
of [MUFON] investigators to investigate and document these cases
is vitally important. To me, case validation is essential for
establishing a significant data base. Preliminary reports are
raw data only, whereas validated cases that have complete
information and for which careful investigation has found no
answers are the building blocks of all credible theory. Raw
data, suspended judgement."

This is not meant as an attack on Brian. Personally, I admire
his tireless efforts and I wish we had a few more like him in
our MUFON ranks. However, I question the value of the relentess
posting of sighting reports without adequately checking into
them. The above example illustrates how this can cloud and
confuse things. In fact, I think in the long run it does more
harm than good. Collection of UFO sighting reports is essential
but competent, thorough, accurate, and objective investigation
is the foundation of UFO research. There is no knowledge gained
by us without this - what is collected is valueless until such
investigation validates it as 'information.'

If this were an isolated incident, I would not have been
behooved to write this post. However, I have been checking into
a lot of cases (from behind the scenes) hitting the listservs
from Brian's organization and have noticed a significant number
of them are certainly explainable when one begins to dig. In
fact, I would even go on record as saying that there is no major
UFO flap going on in British Columbia, that it is all being
created by those who want to believe that something
extraordinary is going on there. Sure, BC, like the rest of
Canada, is getting its fair share of unexplainable cases - maybe
even a bit more than most other places in Canada. But from where
I sit, if you start to dig into most of the BC cases and if you
aren't setting out looking for something mysterious, then
reasonable answers present themselves fairly quickly, and common
sense will usually accept that these are more than likely the
correct answers.

When one takes the time to compare satellite positions,
astronomical charts, weather data, physical conditions in and
round the areas, etc., etc. and dissect sighting reports as to
description, behaviour, etc. - relevant to the BC region - one
finds that about 95 percent of the cases involve lights or
combinations of lights that do nothing out of the ordinary (no
reversing direction or right angle turns, etc.) and which are
mundane in appearance/configuration or which have probable
explanations come easily forward. Is it a coincidence that this
matches the belief held by a lot of reputable researchers that
about 95 percent of UFO sighting reports can be explained as
misinterpretations, misidentifications, hoaxes, etc.? Or is it
pointing out that BC's sighting reports (like everywhere else)
consist of about 95 percent misidentification/misinterpretation
of mundane phenomena?

I'd like to see more hard investigation and objective research
instead of relentless collection and posting of cases that have
barely been checked into! This, at best, is sensationalizing of
raw data! Post more RESULTS OF CAREFUL INVESTIGATIONS only!
Maybe then we can find out what the answer to the question in
the paragraph above is! Posting raw cases is one thing...
attaching an aura of mystery to them without checking into them
is another!

Again, this is not an attack on Brian. I view Brian as one of
the best allies we have out there. But I do have the right, even
obligation, to point out my concerns regarding his, or anybody
else's, methods, conclusions, etc.! I think things have reached
a point where the public is in danger of getting a distorted
picture of things, particularly when it comes to BC, and that it
is tainting the field of Ufology even more than it already is.
Brian has brought several of these cases into the MUFON UFO
JOURNAL recently (October 2003) and our own evaluations of them
through independent investigation lean in a much different
direction. Had he not entered our journal, I would not have been
stirred to respond regarding Brian's work. But enter he has, so,
as the National Director of MUFON in Canada, I feel it is my
duty to present to the public and to the membership our
viewpoint on this work since it is contradictory to what Brian
espoused in our journal - it does, afterall, involve Canadian
cases and thus is part of my jurisdiction and concern.  Chris
Styles (our Canadian Director of Investigations) and I have
checked into a number of these allegedly unexplainable events
and we find there is no mystery attached to the majority of
them. It all comes down to whether you prefer to accept strongly
probable solutions or weave a lot of unrelated events into a
mystery.

I'm not claiming we've solved them all... to the contrary, BC
has many true anomalies occurring constantly. But the fact is,
many cases are getting presented as mysteries that shouldn't
even get mentioned because careful and objective investigation
(even cursory) would establish them as probably explainable in
mundane terms. The noise level is being increased so much so
here that any really good 'signals' may be getting lost.


Regards,
Eugene Frison

MUTUAL UFO NETWORK, INC. (MUFON)
`````````````````````````````````````````````````

INTERNATIONAL HEADQUARTERS
mufonhq@aol.com
John Schuessler - International Director


CANADIAN BOARD OF DIRECTORS

CANADIAN HEAD OFFICE
genefrison@aol.com
Eugene Frison - National Director

CANADIAN CASES INVESTIGATION COMMITTEE
cjas55@yahoo.ca
Chris Styles - Canadian Director of Investigations

CANADIAN RECORDS AND RESEARCH
mjs@intergate.ca
ebarker2@mb.sympatico.ca
Michael Strainic ... Ed Barker
Co-Directors of Canadian Cold Case Archives and Research

EASTERN REGION
linda.chernabrow@mcgill.ca
Linda Chernabrow - Eastern Regional Director (Canada)

CENTRAL REGION
mikebird@interlog.com
Mike Bird - Central Regional Director (Canada)

WESTERN REGION
gavin_mcleod@telus.net
Gavin McLeod - Western Regional Director


WEBSITE: http://www.mufon.com







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   Dec > Dec 12

                         VSD UFO Magazine Special #6

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:21:0 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:06:42 -0500
Subject: VSD UFO Magazine Special #6



Special VSD UFO issue number 6, November 2003,
66 pages. 4.50 Euro.

Here are brief article descriptions with the author(s) credited
at the end.

I recently received this highly interesting issue for review.
The contents are certainly first rate. Starting of with a police
report of a report of sighting of a UFO near the French nuclear
facility at Gravelines which has operated since 1980. Pages from
the Gerdarmarie National report are reproduce with photographs
the witness, his aircraft and drawings of the object. (Bernard
Thouanel)

Next is an interview with Jean-Jacques Velasco, head of SEPRA
which investigates UFOs for the French space agency, CNES.
Velasco carefully conservative in his answers shows his office
and files while describing his work in official UFO
investigations of reports both from the military and the police.
(Franck Decoquement and Bernard Thouanel)

Claude Poher founder of GEPAN, the previous official French
investigative unit is also interviewed. Questions here centered
on research into gravitation, MHD and possible exotic propulsion
techniques.

Various declassified Spanish military files are presented and
illustrated with photographs, maps, diagrams and drawings. More
than a dozen reports from Spanish military files are
individually summarized showing pages from the official
investigation as illustrations. (Vincente-Juan Ballester)

Retired Air France pilot and flight engineer, Maurice Chollet,
recounts three UFO observations made during his long career with
the airline.

Analyses of the Petit-Rechain photograph made during the Belgium
is examined in the article. The photograph previously analyzed
by Dr. Richard Haines, Marc Acheroy, Belgium Royal Military
School, and Francois Louange, Societe Flemage, Paris, is
examined once again in this article.
(Andre Marion, CNRS)

Exotic propulsion research is examined in another article which
includes discussion of Magnetic Hydro Dynamics (MHD) and
Magnetic Aerial Dynamics (MAD) and what is being done by DARPA
and NASA in this area. Illustrations of the NASA/Boeing X-37 and
the Boeing X-40A and the Soviet AJAX concept are shown and
discussed. Is it possible to developments a Single Stage to
Orbit (SSTO) vehicle using various new propulsion techniques?
There are defense implications. How to survive high temperatures
encountered with such high speed flight in the atmosphere?
(Serge Brosselin, science writer)

Once again the Maury Island case of 21 June 1947 is brought out
and reviewed. The Maury Island incident as seen through the eyes
of Arnold and Palmer, Ruppelt and Keel is recounted. Fred L.
Crisman, one of the main perpetrators, or if you like one of
witnesses, of the incident, also was named by Garrison in his
"probe" the Kennedy assassination has always been the subject of
various conspiracy theories. What is missing here is a thorough
examination of Ray Palmer's part in the incident. A number of
supplemental documents are available in the 4th Air Force's UFO
files including a completely clean copy of the FBI report on the
incident with no items crossed out. For a few items from the 4th
AF file see:

http://www.project1947.com/fig/rayarnold.html

(Richard D. Nolaane)

Another review of a classical case is "RAF Contre OVNIS:
L'Affaire Lakenheath-Bentwaters," 13 August 1956. Since
discoveries continue to be made in this case, the matter is
still open. Project Blue Book was directed to evaluate this case
and the Bornholm Island radar incidents. However, when Project
Blue Book personnel requested additional information, their
requests were met with only silence. Pictures of some of the
pilots involved and interviewed together with a diagram of the
Venom fighter cockpit and a map diagramming the incident
contribute material to this print version of the incident. Much
of the material in the article is drawn from Martin Shough's
Lakenheath website

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/L-contents.htm

give some of the latest discoveries and analysis.


(Richard D. Nolaane)

Two articles by Luc Mary on other planets and SETI round out the
issue.

Regular departments include a round-up of world wide UFO news
and "Bibliographie" showing the covers of many current and
recommended UFO books and other media.

Highly recommended.

Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135








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   Dec > Dec 12

                            Ufology In Mysticism

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 02:39:58 -0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:45:04 -0500
Subject: Ufology In Mysticism


Source: China Daily, China

http://www1.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-12/12/content_289788.htm

12-12-03

Focus: Ufology in mysticism

UFOs, flying saucers and ET conjure up images from Hollywood
films and blurred photos in tabloid newspapers. But a number of
true believers in China, many of them highly educated, see merit
in exploring unidentified flying objects and alien encounters
scientifically.

Meng Zhaoguo, a 35-year-old tree grower from Wuchang City in
Heilongjiang Province, can still vividly describe the Steven
Spielberg-type scenario he claims to have witnessed nearly 10
years ago: As he sat in a huge white, gleaming spaceship, a tall
creature with a large head and eyes like light bulbs and clad in
an inflated seamless rubber suit perched on a metal sheet that
hovered in the air. In a metallic-tinged voice, this
interplanetary visitor communicated with a man via a television-
like screen, predicting a collision between a comet and Jupiter.

As sensational as it sounds, Meng insists he was taken aboard
the ship a month after being shocked by some sort of waves
emitted by a silver-coloured object on a mountain he and some
other villagers attempted to approach in June 1994.

Such accounts have served to shroud ufology - the study of UFOs
- in a kind of mysticism, a word often used when referring to
the subject.

The Chinese public first learned about UFOs in 1978, when
leading State newspaper the People's Daily ran an article about
the phenomenon. Although many accounts of UFO sightings have
appeared in the media in the ensuing two decades, the voices of
doubt are as strong as people's curiosity.

But despite the cynicism, more than 40 ufology associations
across the country have registered some 5,000 believers, not
including academicians interested in UFOs. With no State funding
and little private sponsorship, the community feels
discriminated against and excluded from mainstream scientific
circles.

The sceptics's main demand seems simple enough, but satisfying
it is harder: Show me the evidence. A photo or video footage,
which can be easily fabricated, is not sufficient. They want to
see a real object, a flying saucer, something of a mission
impossible for ufologists.

Describing ufologists as Rmantics, Sima Nan, a popular science
writer and a leading figure in the country's fight against
pseudo-science, says the most important thing in scientific
research is to base a study on concrete evidence and avoid
subjectivism. Those who alleged to have seen UFOs or had
extraterrestrial (ET) encounters, be they an innocent child,
sincere woman or down-to-earth farmer or a retired cadre, all
lack hard evidence to prove their claims via objective and
scientific methods.

"Research work based mostly on imagination is not research at
all, "says the writer, adding that the standard telescopes and
hand-held video cameras commonly used by ufologists cannot meet
the stringent demands of scientific research.

Ufologists, however, believe their research to be as significant
as the country's space exploration programme, even if it is not
currently being taken seriously. If space exploration includes
the search for alien civilizations, they argue, UFO research can
serve to supplement it.

Tian Daojun, a professor at the Nanjing University of Aviation
and Aeronautics, says that human fantasy is not totally
meaningless in scientific research, as some UFO sceptics assume,
pointing out that the fanciful notions of human beings did
eventually put a man on the moon.

The numerous UFO sightings reported should never be ignored or
denied, Tian says. Any information gleaned about the way alien
spacecraft function might serve to upgrade scientific research,
resulting in breakthroughs in aviation and aeronautics
technologies on Earth.

But what upsets UFO researchers most is the suggestion that UFOs
are nothing but mythology and ufology is just a new form of
pseudo-science.

Ji Jianmin, a UFO enthusiast in Feixiang County in northern
China's Hebei Province, dismisses such assertions as too
opinionated and unfriendly to UFO researchers and criticizes
detractors for their own unscientific approach to the subject.

Ji, a former high school art teacher who currently runs a
nameplate design service, became interested in UFOs in the
1980s. He firmly believes in the existence of civilizations on
other planets as well as the potential for a kind of psychic
connection between residents of Earth and aliens.

A graduate from a local vocational teacher training college, Ji
admits that his education falls short of arming him to study
UFOs scientifically. But, he adds:" that does not necessarily
mean I'mnot qualified to do my part. When it comes to UFO
research, everyone is a primary-school pupil, from fans with
scant education to established experts in various scientific
fields."

The controversy surrounding UFOs is very natural, so long as
each side does not force its ideas on the other, according to Wu
Jialu, a Shanghai aircraft expert.

Wu also finds it natural for people to become interested in the
mysteries of the universe. It's quite nice that people care
about things outside their immediate world, as it shows a
willingness to expand their vision, and the exploration of the
unknown is, after all, both interesting and important. Even
within the UFO community, ufologists differ in their approaches
to research, although they all consider alien spacecraft and
intelligence to be at the very heart of their research.

One school tends to focus on the more practical aspects. Some,
like Wu, expect to get inspiration by contemplating the
mechanics of alien spacecraft as a means of improving Earth
aircraft or even spaceships. Others, including Su Congbo, a
seismologist in Taiyuan, capital of north China's Shanxi
Province, are interested in finding out whether there is a
connection between UFOs and natural phenomena such as
earthquakes.

Beijing-based ufologist Zhang Jingping stands for yet another
school of thought in his persistent attempts to prove the
existence not only of UFOs but also of alien civilizations.

Zhang, the 30-something owner of an advertising firm who
considers ufology his real career, has put a great deal of
energy into investigating UFO encounters. A graduate of the
Beijing University of Aviation and Aeronautics (BUAA), Zhang
says he has no doubt that visitors from other planets have had a
considerable amount of contact with people on Earth. Not one to
shrink from the courage of his convictions, he even named his
advertising company Flying Saucer.

In early September, Zhang invited police technicians and
psychologists to subject Meng Zhaoguo to a lie detector test and
hypnosis experiments in Beijing. The test results, he says,
prove that Meng was telling the truth. Zhang also believes the
scars Meng bears from the incident, which doctors said could not
possibly have been caused by common injuries or surgery, serve
as further evidence of his ET encounter.

But Liu Daoye, a retired expert on national defence based in
Nanjing, capital of eastern China's Jiangsu Province, contends
that a belief cannot be based on something that cannot be
explained, such as the scars Meng says were inflicted during his
alien adventure. However exciting the reports of UFO witnesses
and however sensational the claims of encounters with ETs may
be, Liu says, ufologists must base their studies on serious
research and concrete evidence to avoid misleading the public.

"I believe in the probability of intelligent life on other
planets, but I doubt such beings have ever travelled to Earth,"
he says. "To date, no one who has claimed to have encountered an
ET can produce concrete evidence, so advocating their existence
can only lead UFO research towards mysticism." He says that
while the reports of experiences similar to Meng's are not
necessarily lies, they are more likely the result of some sort
of optical illusion.

Zhang does argue, however, that UFO research should not be
fettered by the limitations of modern science and technology.
"We need new conceptions in UFO research, as current science and
technology theory also need improving." Cao Lixing, a
postgraduate student majoring in computer science at BUAA, says
proving the existence of UFOs or flying saucers is important to
advancing serious study. "As long as the existence of such
phenomena remains unproven, UFO research will never escape the
bounds of scepticism," he says.

The young man became interested in UFO research after listening
to a lecture Zhang and Meng gave in late September. He also
accompanied Zhang to Qinhuangdao, a northern coastal city in
Hebei, in early October to look for the landing site of a flying
saucer in another alleged ET encounter.

Cao says he appreciates Zhang's enthusiasm and devotion, but
admits that it is hard for the average person, himself included,
to believe any ET story unless they have such an experience
themselves.

A farmer with only five years's schooling, Meng Zhaoguo says he
had never heard the term "UFO" before researchers visited him
after his story was reported.

After his experience, Meng was sought out by some locals hoping
he could cure their diseases, as they reckoned his encounter
might have given him special powers. Meng says he refused their
entreaties. And more business-minded people wanted to advertise
Meng as an attraction to encourage tourism to the region.

Acknowledging the overwhelming doubt he sees in people's eyes
when he recalls the incident, the farmer, who has participated
in more than 100 interviews with the media and researchers, says
that UFOs and ufology, which were originally unknown to him,
have disrupted his life and made him feel uneasy.

"But ufologists still take great interest in Meng's UFO
encounter nine years on. they hope there will be a conclusion to
the UFO phenomenon as soon as possible; only then will I feel
released," sighs Meng.








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   Dec > Dec 12

                             The UFO Evidence II

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:45:27 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:59:13 -0500
Subject: The UFO Evidence II


For those of you who have not been able to afford my book The
UFO Evidence, Volume II, here is some good news. I have four
personal copies available that I will sell on a first come,
first served basis, for $38.00 including media mail postage in
the U.S. and Canada. (The Amazon.com price today is $47.96 plus
shipping, and the Scarecrow Press price is $59.95 plus
shipping). Contact me privately, not via the list.

I also have a few copies of Uninvited Guests that I will sell
for $15.00 including media mail postage. Some addiitonal UFO
titles are available on the HallMart page of my web site
(www.hallrichard.com) via check, money order, or PayPal.


- Richard Hall








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             Re: Who's Keeping Tabs On 'Mars Jam 2004'? - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:46:22 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:08:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Who's Keeping Tabs On 'Mars Jam 2004'? - Boone


>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:07:46 -0800 (PST)
>Subject: Re: Who's Keeping Tabs On 'Mars Jam 2004'?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:31:57 EST
>>Subject: Who's Keeping Tabs On 'Mars Jam 2004'?

<snip>

>>So far the Japanese probe is on the blink and the Big Kahuna
>>British salvo is highly anticipated to put an end all and be all
>>to 'artificial objects' on the Big Red Marble.

>For the life of me, I don't know why anyone would expect an
>orbital photo to resolve the artificial vs. natural controversy.
>Hopefully Mars Express can provide some interesting data, but I
>certainly don't expect it to "prove" or "disprove" anything.  To
>think otherwise is to completely ignore the legacy of the Mars
>Global Surveyor, which has taken numerous pictures of anomalous
>Mars surface features.


Surface features aren't what we're talking about here, just one
part of the data stream. The Express and Beagle 2 will provide a
multiple data gathering team most notably of the sub surface of
the planet far more in depth than previous missions. So
combining an array of imaging technologies ( see
http://www.beagle2.com/index.htm ) it's a good bet it'll resolve
any question of artificial structures. As for past or present
microbial life, the Beagle 2 and re-examination of past and
present data from other probes should shed some light there.


Best,

Greg








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             Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:18:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:07:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown" - Connors


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:19:25 -0000
>Subject: Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown"

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:17:03 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Mr. Roberts Of The "Unknown-Unknown"

>>Rhetorical Question: Why are the debunking views of Andy Roberts
>>and his feral distain for anyone who engages in the study of
>>Ufology being espoused on UFO UpDates and, for that matter, all
>>debunkers, pelicanists, etc., who haunt the List?

>Why not? It's a List for discussion about UFOs, which I have
>done extensively over the last six years or so.

The question was rhetorical. Research as to its definition can
be found in any English dictionary. However, since you felt
compelled to comment, I shall too. You claim six years of
hoaxing, interferring with other researchers work, all the while
popping psychadelics. Real solid contributions to the study of
Ufology. Pathetic.

>>Personal Comment Number 1: If UFO UpDates exists for the "study
>>of UFO-related phenomena," why is the subject allowed to be
>>hijacked by CSICOPian cultists, debunkers, etc., whose sole aim
>>is to prevent the "study of UFO-related phenomena" and interfere
>>with the stated aim of UFO UpDates?

>Because sceptics have as much right to a say as anyone else. I
>don't really understand why you and anyone else should want to
>have a closed list which only discusses the things you believe
>in but which aren't proven!

I have no problem with skeptics. It is skeptics that hoax,
belittle, corrupt, rewrite, falsify and muddy the waters. They
are no longer skeptics. They are debunkers with an agenda to
destroy millions of peoples legitimate interest in Ufology.
Skeptics have their own Lists and websites.

It is an ideological mindset that borders on facism. These
debunkers form cults (such as CSICOP's) of this same hidden
agenda. Their fanaticism spreads to the point of trying to use
science for their legitimacy, but in fact, uses science to
delude and control the free will of others the right to look at,
or seek, that which is beyond themselves. They also bastardize
legitimate science, which widens the gulf between it and the
people.

Your ilk become destroyers of knowledge and history tells of how
evil that intent becomes. In my opinion, you contribute nothing
to the knowledge of Ufology and you waste people's time who are
trying to learn Ufology.

Don't even attempt to compare your own contributions to Ufology
with mine. It would be academic suicide for you.

>>Personal Comment Number 2: Is there not one ufological forum in
>>existence that is free from CSICOPian cult terrorism? If not,
>>_why_not_?

>That's right Wendy, ghettoise ufology so that only those singing
>from the same hymn sheet get a look in. Why are you all obsessed
>with CSICOP? Do they frighten you? I know nothing about them
>other than they appear to be a _very_ bad bogeyman indeed!

No. You're as wrong as you can be and too addled to know it.
People who share an interest in Ufology have the right to learn
and research without debunking or having their time wasted by
the debunking cults. Most people in the field are skeptical, but
open-minded. Not so with debunkers, who come in guise of skeptic
to assassinate Ufology. Monumental difference.

As to "fear of CSICOP." I cannot speak for others, but if you
can really research you will find I'm not the least bit
intimidated by their cult or members. But, people on UFO UpDates
should be fearful. It is a cult with an agenda to ridicule,
character assassinate and destroy the right of others to think
and participate in learning and understanding Ufology.

So, why are you and other debunkers afraid of Ufology? You do
everything you can to destroy it at the same time claiming you
have a right to participate on a List supposed to be devoted to
Ufology... not Ufological debunking 101.

>>Personal Comment Number 3: I'd really be thrilled if Andy
>>Roberts and CSICOPian cultists were driven off the "Happy
>>Trails" of UFO UpDates, but that's my personal opinion.

>How queer Wendy. Despite your odd views I'm quite happy to have
>you on this List as I believe you have actually put something
>into the subject.

I could care less of your "happy to have you (me) on this List."
How arrogant you are! I'm on the list as long as EBK desires my
participation. He owns UFO UpDates, Andy. You do not.

As to your condescending, "I believe you have actually put
something into the subject," you are either totally clueless,
drugged out of your mind or jealous. There can be no other
options and cannot be disputed.

>Happy Trails

You're the proverbial road apple on the trail of Ufology, Andy.
I think it's time UFO UpDater's paved you and your, "Happy
Trails," over with concrete.

>Andy

Wendy Connors








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                     Re: Congress and Disclosure - Knize

From: Francis Knize <Frankknee@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:09:05 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:07:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure - Knize


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:34:32 -0600
>Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:57:23 -0500
>Subject: Re: Congress and Disclosure - Fleming

>The NASA "National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA)
>Guidelines for Ensuring the Quality of Information" can be
>downloaded from:

>http://www.thecre.com/pdf/20021026_nasa-final.pdf

>As far as I can tell from reading this document, it would be
>futile to pursue corrections of misleading information
>disseminated by NASA using the Data Quality Act because of the
>vast amount of information that NASA claims is exempt from the
>act. The exemptions are stated in Section C.3 of the document.


Lan,

Thank you for informing me of the NASA update for their DQA
guidelines. Upon the first glance of the document I see plenty
of room to place an inquiry and making a request for
accountability. Any claim of exemption from NASA would have to
be proved by them and this would require their answer as such
during the start of a hearing. I could deal with that just fine

Please allow me the weekend to review the document in order to
give an educated response to you. Off the bat I can say that on
one hand you seem to praise the relevance of a lawsuit, yet then
you quickly discount that a DQA inquiry will ever hold any
water.

I believe NASA was very worried when I instituted the first DQA
down there. I had them between a rock and a hard place. It
didn't matter to me which way the inquiry went, whether Keith
Laney's discovery of blocking paterning showed structures on
Mars or whether it turned out to be a hoax. If it was a hoax
NASA would have to be held accountable. But if the blocking was
determined anomalous then this would open doors to new
discovery. A win/win situation.

Had I appealed their completely ridiculous first ruling, I
believe I would have prevailed in getting the inquiry on the
road. This is to not to say that anything about artificiality on
Mars would have been proven, but that the integrity of the data
would have had to be reviewed by a panel of some sort. However,
losing the support of the primary affected parties, who were
Richard Hoagland and Keith Laney, I admit that the inquiry did
die. but remain unfettered and ready to try again.

>LAN: One thing that definitely will NOT work is haranguing
people who work for NASA or its contractors with private emails
and public "challenges," as Mr. Knize should have learned by
now.

I have learned much in the process. Public challenges as you
know are very necessary. I am perfecting my approaches so that I
will not be wasting anybody's time. After review and
contemplation of your thoughts I will make a more appropriate
response.

Thanks for the time you put into your explanation. It was very
productive.


Very Truly Yours,

Francis C. P. Knize








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              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Franz

From: Captain Alejandro Franz <alfafox@Prodigy.net.mx>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:41:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:25:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Franz


[Non-Subscriber Post]

>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:05:08 -0500
>Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:21:20 -0500
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Velez

>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@msn.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:05:52 -0800
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

<snip>

>>>As for Maussan having credibility as a jouranlist/investigator,
>>>it is my opinion he is just one more in a lump of UFO clowns
>>>that rehash other people's material and make sensationalist and
>>>unverifiable claims.

>>Hope all is well and, as always, appreciate your two-cents.

>>Nobody, and I mean nobody, is 100% spot-on all the time Royce.
>>You have to be very careful about completely dismissing Maussan
>>because more than most of those categorized as 'bad-guys,' it is
>>a genuine instance of throwing out the baby with the bath-water
>>in his case.

>Hiya Royce,

>You responded.

<snip>

>>John, there's simply no way we're going to agree on Maussan. My
>>past experience with him and his track record speaks for itself.
>>Thanks for your view.

>You're welcome. I hope you can at least appreciate where I'm
>coming from though. This airline collision case is one I plan to
>follow-up regardless of Maussan's reputation. We have a pilot
>who is willing to testify, an air traffic controller, and a
>damaged commercial jet. I don't care how flakey Maussan may be,
>if you put him aside and just look at the witnesses reporting
>this incident, you have something solid and meaty to sink your
>ufological teeth into. There has to be a paper-trail ten miles
>long stemming from this incident. I want to make sure that
>somebody looks into this who can actually do something with the
>material. So far, it's all been ignored. Probably because of
>Maussan's connection to it. That's a shame man. Shouldn't be
>that way.

Hi John,

I can provide some information about this case, another one of
many J. Maussan hoaxes. The Aeromexico DC9 flight 129 from
Guadalajara to Mexico's City Intl. Airport that supposedly had a
collision with a UFO when approaching runway 05 right at
Mexico's Intl. Airport on july 1994.

I know personally the "eyewitness" Enrique Kolbeck, an Air
Traffic Controller, very close to Jaime Maussan because he is
the one who always has been invited to join the "team" of
"eyewitnesses" at all UFO conventions that Maussan has organized
since 1997.

Kolbeck was present at the Disclosure Project's May 9, 2001
National Press Club Conference. He testified as a "eyewitness"
and exposed the DC9 collision - he was not the pilot - and said
that there was a damage to the right main landing gear. That of
course, is a _big_lie_. Kolbeck is a Radar Route Controller and not
a Radar Terminal Controller where the alleged "crash" happened.

I can tell you, later, the whole story of Kolbeck's false
testimony.

I invite you to visit the 1994 UFO crash investigation at:

http://www.alcione.org/OVNI94.html

Its in Spanish.

You can see the video of Kolbeck's "testimony" at:

http://www.topsecrettestimony.com/npcc_full.wmv

The strange thing about this 'eyewitness' is that he is an Area
Route Controller, he has never been a Terminal Controller who,
in this case, would be in charge of controlling traffic on final
approach course to the runways.

Kolbeck is the conection between the pilots and Maussan. He is
always searching for pilots on the ATC frequencies.

I was a supervisor, in 1975, at the Control Tower in Guadalajara
Mexico were I worked from 1973 to 1978. I graduated from two
Approach Radar courses there and worked in Mexico's Intl.
Airport as Radar Route Controller in 1979. I supervised Enrique
Kolbeck when he graduated from 'CIAAC' - Centro Internacional de
Adiestramiento de Aviacion Civil - an ATC (Air Traffic Control)
training center in Mexico.

I know Capt. Raymundo Cervantes Ruano who was the PIC flying the
DC9 - registration number XA-AMC - the day of the "crash" (hoax).

I had many interviews with maintenance personnel about this case
and from that date I had an interview with another eyewitness,
Capt. Alejandro Luna Sotura, a retired pilot, who was sitting in
the "jump seat" (observer seat inside the cockpit) that day and
now is working in Aeromexico as Security Chief.


Best regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director@alcione.org
www.alcione.org
(non-profit)






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             Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case! -

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 09:32:17 -0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:33:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case! -


>From: Ken Kelly <elprospero@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:41:40 -0800 (PST)
>Subject: Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case!

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto ><ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:19:43 -0200
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case!

>>>From: Ken Kelly <elprospero@yahoo.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:48:58 -0800 (PST)
>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case!

>>>>From: Marcos Malvezzi Leal <malvezzil@ig.com.br>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>>Subject: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case!
>>>>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 07:52:59 -0200

>>>>Unlike the infamous so-called "Barra da Tijuca" incident, in
>>>>which a supposed UFO photograph was proven as an undeniable
>>>>hoax,

>>>Please cite the evidence you have in support of the several
>>>"Barra da Tijuca" photographs being hoaxed. Otherwise your
>>>opinion is unworthy of consideration.

>>If you still believe that the Ed Keffel Barra da Tijuca's photos
>>are for real? I am sorry but you are either misinformed or need
>>an update in your info. Urgently!

>Would anyone be so kind as to offer some good references (in
>English) on the 'Barra da Tijuca' case?



Ken,

After I posted the translated material here about the Trindade
Island photos, the interest in Barra da Tijuca began among
Listers. I then asked my friend and co-worker, Marcos Malvezzi,
to translate another article by Claudeir Covo, this time about
the BT case. It will soon be ready to post here.


A. J.







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                   Re: Denzler Abductee Survey? - Denzler

From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb@bellsouth.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:14:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:46:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Denzler Abductee Survey? - Denzler


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:16:25 -0500
>Subject: Denzler Abductee Survey? [was: Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention...]

>>From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb@bellsouth.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:40:57 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:23:49 EST
>>>Subject: Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions

>>>John, it would be of interest to know religious backgrounds of
>>>abductees. Has anyone got stats on this?

>>In my survey of people who believe they have been abducted, 44% said
>>they were Protestant Christians, 15% were Roman Catholics, 3% are
>>Jewish, 10% are agnostics or atheists, and 29% identified themselves
>>merely as "other". N = @765, gathered from paper interviews handed out
>>at conferences and from electronic interviews completed
over the Web.

>Not to be a PITA or a stickler but... what diagnostic criteria
>was employed to determine that the respondents were "abductees"?

You're not being a stickler at all, John. It's a perfectly
reasonable question. And the answer is, none.

My object was not to delineate a "true" abductee from a "false"
or "wannabe" abductee. For one thing, I have no psychological
training as a basis from which to make such a distinction. For
another thing, I find the whole question devilishly hard

and suspect that this would be the case even *if* I had
psychological training. For a third thing, this approach does
the skeptics the favor of taking seriously their claim that
*everyone* is a wannabe abductee, and THEN looking at the
characteristics of the people who comprise that group. The
skeptical community is wont to make all kinds of statements
about people who believe they have been abducted by aliens.

This data gave/gives me a way to comment on those statements in
a more informed way than just sticking out my tongue and saying,
"Nuh-uh."

My object was to look at the profile of anyone who felt
sufficiently identified with the term "abductee" or
"experiencer" that they would be willing to fill out my survey.
My interests are sociological rather than psychological. Given
that abductee-hood is a highly dubious status according to much
of mainstream U.S. culture, and given that even within the UFO
sub-culture the exact parameters of what abductee status might
be is highly contested -- it seemed to me the way to approach
the topic.

The implicit criticism in your query is that my survey may have
measured indiscriminately the wanna-be's and the real things (as
defined from the UFO insider's point of view), lumped them all
together, and thereby skewed the results. And you're right, that
could be the case. But until there is some consensus on just
what constitutes a genuine abductee, and even more so until
there is a broader cultural acceptance of the idea that
abductions happen, this lumping together is somewhat useful.

If nothing else, it allows us to see the social parameters of
the _idea_ of alien abduction -- what the people who identify
with that label (rightly or wrongly) are like. Perhaps someone
with more sophisticated statistical analysis skills than I could
parse the data in such a way that two sub-sets of individuals
would appear: one subset with one profile and another with a
second very distinct profile, indicating that we might have two
kinds of people responding to the survey -- the real deals and
the wannabes that are posited to exist in the UFO/abduction sub-
culture. That, however, is a question that I am not able to
answer. I do plan to deposit my data in some secure, reputable
location for public use (sans identifiers of the respondents,
for privacy's sake) when I am finally done with it. So maybe
someone in the future will be able to pick it all up and
manipulate it all in new and exciting ways.

I am, by the way, continuing to collect survey data (albeit in a
very slow manner nowadays), so if anyone knows of anyone who
would be a likely candidate to fill out the forms, I would very
much appreciate it if you'd pass along my name and email
address, and/or my website.


Brenda Denzler
http://www.abductionproject.com
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for you are crunchy and good with ketchup"








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   Dec > Dec 13

                  Radiation Mars Mission's Invisible Enemy

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 09:57:58 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:42:17 -0500
Subject: Radiation Mars Mission's Invisible Enemy


Source: The New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/09/science/space/09RADI.html?ex=1072025592&ei=1&e
n=26df6178e13d78be

December 9, 2003

Mars Mission's Invisible Enemy: Radiation

By Matthew L. Wald

UPTON, N.Y. - As the United States considers new goals for NASA
after the loss of the Columbia, some space enthusiasts have
renewed calls for a mission to Mars.

But a team of physicists and biologists here at a laboratory on
Long Island is demonstrating that even if the nation wanted to
commit to such a goal, it would be far more complex than the
Moon mission that gripped the country in the 60's.

One reason is radiation, in the form of heavy ions from distant
stars, zipping through everything in their path. Others include
price, estimated at $30 billion to $60 billion, and launching
enough food, supplies and fuel for a round trip. Any one of
these could make the project impractical.

In a new $34 million NASA laboratory here, part of Brookhaven
National Laboratory, scientists are using subatomic particles
accelerated to nearly the speed of light to slam into materials
that could be used in a spaceship, and tissue samples and small
animals. Using tools like PET and M.R.I. scans and DNA
sequencing, they hope to shed light on ways that radiation
damages biological tissue, and what can be done about it.

On a trip to Mars and back, probably every cell in the body
would be hit by an ionized particle or a proton, researchers
say, and they have very little idea what that would do. "If
every neuron in your brain gets hit, do you come back being a
blithering idiot, or not?" asked Dr. Derek I. Lowenstein, the
chairman of Brookhaven's collider accelerator department.

A trip to Mars means "trying to live in an environment that
human beings were not built to live in," Dr. Lowenstein said.
"Space is not `Star Trek,' but the public certainly doesn't
understand that."

On earth, radiation shielding is easy; just add concrete or
lead. That is not so easy on a spaceship, where weight is of the
essence. Nor is there much prospect of significantly reducing
the amount of time the astronauts would be exposed, unless NASA
develops a much more effective propulsion system.

The NASA administrator, Sean O'Keefe, has identified radiation
as one of three problems that will have to be solved before a
Mars mission. The others are better propulsion and on-board
power generation.

Brookhaven is studying the radiation in a a sprinkling of
undistinguished-looking corrugated metal buildings, connected by
low earthen berms. "That's where the action is," said Mona Rowe,
a spokeswoman. The berms are shields for tracks underneath that
carry the accelerated particles that slammed into targets or one
another. Above the berms, wild turkeys amble through the woods.

The radiation environment that the accelerator is mimicking is
vastly different from the terrestrial one.

The average American receives about 350 millirem of radiation a
year: the fraction of solar and cosmic radiation that makes it
through Earth's magnetic field and atmosphere; radiation from
naturally radioactive rocks and minerals, some incorporated into
building materials; higher doses from flying in airplanes; and
sources like medical X-rays.

In contrast, the astronauts who went to the Moon on Apollo 14
accumulated about 1,140 millirem, equivalent of about three
years on Earth in their nine-day mission. The astronauts on the
Skylab 4, who spent 87 days in low Earth orbit, received a dose
of about 17,800 millirem (equivalent to a 50-year background
dose on Earth).

That dose was near the threshold of radiation exposure that
produces clinically measurable symptoms. Longer-term effects
like increases in cancer rates have not been observed in adults
exposed to doses at that level, but experts presume the effects
exist. By comparison, nuclear power plant workers are limited by
law to exposures no greater than 5,000 millirem a year; in this
country they are generally held below 2,000.

A round trip to Mars would be of a different order of magnitude.
Brookhaven puts the exposure at 130,000 millirem over two and a
half years. That is equivalent to almost 400 years of natural
exposure.

But radiation in space is not like radiation on Earth.

On Earth the dose is mostly made up of gamma rays, which have
far less energy than the heavy charged particles of space. But
beyond Earth's protective atmosphere and magnetic field, the
radiation is mostly ions of every element on the periodic table
up to iron (No. 26), moving at a substantial fraction of the
speed of light, and approaching from distant stars in all
directions. Astronauts in low Earth orbit get some protection
from the magnetic field.

Much less is known about the biological effects of this
radiation, because very few places can simulate the
interplanetary radiation. Brookhaven can do it, but its method,
sequentially firing ions of different elements, resembles
playing a symphony by mimicking one instrument at a time.

One recent afternoon, scientists were adjusting the flow of iron
ions being delivered to the 400-square-foot "target room" of the
laboratory here, using a control a bit like a shower head, which
could vary the dimensions and density of the spray. The target
would eventually be a flask filled with human tissue, but for
now was a monitoring instrument that captured an image the way
an X-ray film would.

Dr. Adam Rusek, a physicist, shuttled between a control panel
and the main room of the Space Radiation Laboratory, where Dr.
Betsy Sutherland, a staff biologist and some assistants, were
watching instruments that analyzed the beam.

Intermittently, an assistant went into the heavily shielded
target room to adjust the target, a procedure that requires a
retina scan by a security device and the insertion of special
keys to assure that no one unauthorized enters.

Inside the room, the lighting dimmed before each initiation of
the beam, so that anyone trapped inside could hit a panic switch
to stop it.

At last, the beam assumed the desired size, density and
uniformity. "Is that better?" Dr. Rusek asked. "Yes, don't
breathe on it," Dr. Sutherland replied.

One persistent question about radiation exposure is the
importance of the delivery rate, but Dr. Sutherland is simply
trying to hit each cell once. "If a cell is hit once, there is
no rate," she said. "Once is once."

After irradiation, the cells are moved to a nutrient medium that
is known to support cancer cells but not normal cells.


The experiment is repeated with ions of several elements. Dr.
Sutherland also uses protons, which come from the Sun and stars
and far outnumber the ions.

One theory holds that cells busy repairing damage from protons
will not be able to cope with damage from heavy ions; another
says that proton irradiation will prime the cell's repair system
to be ready for particle damage.

"It's a reasonable thing to ask, what are these first protons
going to do to the later response to iron," said Dr. Sutherland,
noting that the theory had not been tested.


Another Brookhaven scientist, Dr. Marcelo Vazquez, a physician,
plans to irradiate mice to look for brain damage. Damage from
heavy ions, he said, will include a column of cells formed by
the track of the ion, and a surrounding halo of cells damaged by
electrons.

Dr. Vazquez, who also has a doctorate in neurobiology and
radiobiology, said that neither the column nor the penumbra was
visible on post-mortem examination. But changes in motor skills
are tested by stimulating animals with cocaine and measuring
movement with infrared beams, Dr. Vazquez said. Memory can be
observed. Mice are put in water and trained to escape to a
platform; then they are irradiated and the drill is run again.

NASA's chief scientist, John M. Grunsfeld, who as an astronaut
made several spacewalks to maintain the Hubble telescope, said
the research would take years. "The current plan is about five
years but I suspect we'll extend that," he said in an interview
in Washington. He hopes that the research reveals the biological
mechanism of radiation damage to cells, he added.

Also, some targets are structural materials. The incoming
protons and ions have so much energy that they make neutrons
peel off the aluminum or other materials; those neutrons are a
potent form of radiation. In addition, irradiating some
materials can cause changes that make them radioactive. Such
"activation products," commonly produced in nuclear reactors on
Earth, give off yet more radiation. Researchers hope they can
pick materials that will resist such activation or neutron
peeling.

A third area of research is shielding. On Earth, radiation
shielding is commonly provided by concrete or lead, but the
costs of launching spacecraft are so high that this is not
practical. One possible solution is a water tank, with the
astronauts' living in a chamber in the middle. "It's just so
expensive to put material into orbit that you'd like to use
materials you have to bring anyway," Dr. Lowenstein said.

And beyond the spaceship itself, making space safe for extended
trips beyond the magnetosphere will probably require a new
system to monitor the Sun.

Physicists predict solar storms now by watching the Sun from
Earth or from satellites in Earth orbit, but protecting a Mars
mission will probably require watching the side of the Sun that
faces away from Earth. The job could be done with a small number
of satellites launched into orbit around the Sun, somewhere
outside the orbit of Mercury, Dr. Lowenstein.


Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company

--

�Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress.� Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin
Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
<fortean1@mindspring.com>







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   Dec > Dec 13

                    Re: Denzler Abductee Survey? - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:33:10 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:52:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Denzler Abductee Survey? - Boone


>From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb@bellsouth.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:40:57 -0500
>Subject: Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:23:49 EST
>>Subject: Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions

>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:57:02 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions

>><snip>

>>>I don't think mentioning _anybody's_ name, Jesus or whoever,
>>>would have stopped what happened to her and her mom that night.
>>>Ditto for me and for many other cases I can quote from.

>>>Let's make a distinction between those who are 'imagining' they
>>>are being abducted and those who are ACTUALLY being abducted and
>>>this thread will suddenly begin to make some sense. I resent the
>>>lack of distinction between the two here in this thread.

>>John, it would be of interest to know religious backgrounds of
>>abductees. Has anyone got stats on this?

>Greg,

>In my survey of people who believe they have been abducted, 44%
>said they were Protestant Christians, 15% were Roman Catholics,
>3% are Jewish, 10% are agnostics or atheists, and 29% identified
>themselves merely as "other".  N = @765, gathered from paper
>interviews handed out at conferences and from electronic
>interviews completed over the Web.

Thank you Brenda!

I'm glad to see at least someone is out there doing the job
that's supposed to be done.

The fact that these people were willing to give that data is a
hat's off to you and your crew.

It's difficult sometimes to get people to give you in depth
information and often one is left with using an 'eyeball's view'
of the subject to glean pertinent data.

Believe you me, every single little bit helps and anyone doing
abductee interviews in depth but doesn't list the details is
doing a disservice to say the least.

I for one will be on the edge of my seat awaiting more of your
info. Do you have a site? Pardon me if I missed a posted link.


Best,

Greg








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   Dec > Dec 14

                 Alfred's Odd Ode #383 [Ode to Andy Roberts]

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:02:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 13:28:28 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #383 [Ode to Andy Roberts]


Alfred's Odd Ode #383 (December 13, 2003)
[Ode to Andy Roberts]

I've been attacked in a manner egregious, off topic, insulting,
and way out of bounds by persons encountered who _practice_
malfeasance... are themselves what's accused in a way most
profound!

And I am astonished beyond all belief that these are allowed in
our midst... sullen thieves (oh, not on this List or the
*subject* at all, but on the whole _planet_ where they slink,
slide, and stall)!

They're the *accusers*, and they work to disrupt (from the
depths of their impotence where they can't get it up!) a search
that is needed, expanding our minds, in a way efficacious and,
in fact, unconfined!

...Yeah, these are, in fact, merely rats in our walls (with
respect to real rats if offended at all!) who gnaw the supports
of the truth we all need to transition ourselves and improve our
whole breed!

These are confounders and bounders and cads, who corrode our
resolve and degrade us at last -- who hate any thinking that's
out of their box... the thinking, without which, they find they
are lost!

These are a niggardly nay-saying lot with a two color worldview
to show what they've got, which won't be so much at the old
denouement... when discovered at last they're just men made of
straw.

This is the bunch who contrives to waste time! This bunch will
conspire in the theft of ones mind! This is a bunch that
colludes, and it's _stark_ , to "obscure", and "confuse" so we
miss honest marks!

This is the lot who obstructs our research! This is the lot
who's offending our search! This is the lot who conspires and
schemes to inflict heavy damage on rational themes!

These look in a mirror of self-involved need, it's a staid
status quo that they covet and feed! They do us disservice to
keep us all down, our eyes from the sky, and our knees on the
ground!

We're not alone! It's so patently obvious! Yet there are deniers
-- pretending no cant, who hobble desire and cripple
cognition... dismissing this warning as an off-topic rant!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

This ode is dedicated to the errant pelicanist and ardent
skepti-bunky Andy Roberts, otherwise know as the "Yorkshire
Hatpin." Without his spurious attacks behind the scenes
regarding my character, my sincerity, and my sanity... this
particular piece would not have been produced. I look forward to
Mr. Roberts provoking similar expressions from me in the
future...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

50 years, plus, down the ufological trail and we find that we've
been standing indolently and fatuously at the starting gate,
still... Why is that, do you figure?

With the contributions of such fine persons as MacDonald,
Keyhoe, and Ruppelt humanity would take magnificent strides
forward. Invariably, though, we'd slide, slip, or otherwise,
slither back further than we were when we started... when the
three gentlemen previously mentioned were countered by the like
of Condon, Menzel, and Klass. How does that work, do you think?

When the arguments of each camp are weighed, which shows more
depth? Which proves to be more conclusive? Which demonstrates
more intellectual bravery? Which uses more science of best
practice? Which is more consistent, reliable, and dependable?

Which one uses ad hominem, character assassination, intellectual
fallacy, and obfuscation? Which is the dimensionless ideologue,
and which is the inspired idealist? Which is deliberately
abusive and sarcastically challenging? Which one follows the
data, and which one cherry-picks it? Which won't address the
points already made, and which will concede the point that's
_well_ made?

The individuals to choose from fall on either side of this
divide, and the difference between them is like the difference
between clouds and clear blue sky for the innocent observer
working to be as dispassionate as one can reasonably manage. If
the evaluator has an axe to grind, one way or the other, the
view of that divide is skewed and distorted (a lot or a little)
forgetting that it is the person who is _not_ a believer but who
_can_ believe will have the clearer alien view. But a difference
will be determinable, regardless.

Andy Roberts, in particular, is an example of the ufological
flat-earther I decry here. He's the guy that burns a gagged Monk
Bruno at the stake or makes Galileo the subject of the
conflicted inquisition. He is an example of the noisome
negativist laughing up his damp sleeve at that which he allows
himself no capacity to understand, no aptitude to accept, no
ability to incorporate, and no skill to recognize. With respect
to Mr. Roberts as a fellow human, his contributions are a boil
on the righteous ass of a real investigation, which he works
very furiously to confound, obscure, conflict, and confabulate.
Mr. Roberts' work is a fine example of the reason we seem to
take two and a half steps _back_ for every two steps forward and
he (among significant others) should be recognized as such!

He is an enemy of progress in this area. He is an obstacle to
our advancement within it. He nurtures our failure with his
(admitted, people!) malfeasance, and he gloats in the
dissolution and the obfuscation he would cause!

...Nor is he particularly organized, remotely objective, or in
any way constructive. Ironically, he is not comprehensive, he is
decidedly not flexible, and this is forgetting that he is
completely unacceptable. He only apes the specific and is, in no
way, thoughtful. He is bereft of creativity, he is astonishingly
mean-spirited, and he is patently disrespectful...

The preceding are teacher's (leader's) attributes, and if one
expects to function effectively as same, then the majority of
the preceding attributes must be positively addressed. This
paragraph could easily be an essay map. Mr. Roberts is deficient
in every listed category.

He would "guide." He would be the go-to guy! He'd be the
teacher, leader, and holder of the ufological guiding light!
But, not unlike one who shall remain forever nameless, he
doesn't appear to have a clue about the responsibility of real
leadership and so is dangerous in the extreme to the
sensibilities of individual persons afflicted by his application
of it! That being said he's probably a great guy to sit down an
have a beer with, forgetting that his attitudes suck pond water
and that alone makes me want to drown him in the broccoli
water... (long story...). Maybe I should take a rain-check on
that beer...

His own words damn him to a shallowly fatuous mediocrity! His
ironic celebrations of what is not actually wrong with Ufology
(...but that it is controlled, manipulated, and otherwise
programmed by a soulless corporate mentality worshipping
efficiency to the exclusion of -everything- else... including
human decency, quality of life, and informed consent with regard
to these things...) become increasingly impossible to ignore!
The face eating Reptoids are preferable to the person just
described!

I recall Ellen Ripley (in "Aliens") commenting that "you didn't
see _them_ screwing each other over for a percentage," but I
digress...

Sprung from the Condon, Menzel, and Klass mold of anti-ufology,
he denigrates the unconscionable treatment of honest
researchers, celebrates the malfeasance and intellectual
cowardice of fatuous pelicanists (a nightmare we may never wake
up from), and continues, then, to take the narrowest view -
imaginable- with regard to the responsibility individuals should
have for intellectual fidelity, ethical behavior, and aggregate
consistency! In my opinion he's a knock-off of the slack-jawed
who have preceded him, and will likely end up claiming imagined
persecutions and for the same reasons, as many called to
righteous account will do.

His ufological contribution is ill timed, badly themed, and a
disservice to the respect every informed individual should
_have_ for the subject of ufology. It is "ill timed" because now
is _not_ the time to continue outrageous intellectual retreats
(out of vicious spite, I add, not the only one to think so...)
when we already have such an abundant wealth of obvious retreats
around us, already! It is "badly themed" because the repressive
and repellant nature of his manner discourages rational interest
in ufological constructiveness. It is "disrespectful" because it
does not provide the observer with an accurate assessment of
either human capability (which is, I think, too highly rated) or
possible alien capability (which, I think, is rated much too
shallowly, simplistically, and one-dimensionally). Honestly, one
only has to look at the psychological, technological, and
cultural strides _we_ have made in the last 100 years, to begin
to get an idea what *others* may have accomplished in a
thousand, ten thousand, or a million of them... even a
billion...

He is a, not so, clever instrument of ufology's dismissal, a
facilitator for its derision, and a catalyst for its, hoped for,
demise. He is the worst kind of researcher in that he drives a
virtual herd of eclectic data bits to a conclusion that he has
already arrived at (like a nineteenth century cowboy employing
19th Century cultural mores) instead of performing as the -
remotely- cognizant would, letting the data lead _him_ to the
conclusions... as he follows, humbly. That *conclusion* that
_he_ alludes to is to the lowest of low common denominators,
panders to what is base in all of us, and sells humanity short
in two venues. The first where we are more than he'd give us
credit for, and the second where we are the kinds of beings who
could get along a lot more efficiently if he and his desultory
fellow imps were absent! Time to hit a system reset button,
folks, on this scurrilous lot.

It is plain that a neo-psychosocial imperative has captured his
ufological reporting. Truly, his psychosocial cant does not seem
to advance the cause for vigorously serious investigation of the
highly strange and in fact performs the exact opposite
function... in a manner so obtuse and objectionable that it
seems almost tailor made to perform that function. All of the
preceding seems pretty clear to me.

I bring this up now because he is not so cleverly but
misleadingly *informative* with regard to the mix of his non-
informational and sneering posts, which are unwelcome (to me),
and his axe grinding ones, which are even more so. The UFO
UpDates board is liberally moderated, a liberality in the
classic sense (Classical Liberalism is the reason we're not at
the beck and call of some Roberts-inian Manor Lord). Anyone
wanting a more conservative board can look virtually anywhere
else for same, or invent it for themselves. Consider, folks!
This board exists in its own right without his manner of
contribution, where _he_ cannot exist without this board, at
all. It's the same with all his... ilk.

50 years, plus, down the, decidedly _not_ so happy, ufological
trail... and we find that we've been standing indolently and
fatuously at the starting gate, still. Why is that, do you
figure, good reader? I submit that it's not the buffoons and
public whackos that keep us at the gate (_they_ only evolve to
fill the informational void created by Mr. Roberts et. al.), but
the insidious and contrived mechanizations of persons _typified_
by Mr. Roberts! There's where the blame comes to rest. Verily!

In closing... at 1800 words this piece is not as concise as Mr.
Roberts would prefer, I'm sure. I suggest that he print it out,
roll it up in a tube, and poke himself in the eye with it for a
quicker but similar effect.

Thanks, reader, for going all the way to the bottom on this! <g>
It had to be said.








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   Dec > Dec 14

                Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:15:45 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:30:46 -0500
Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Rudiak


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:19:48 -0800
>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Gehrman

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:27:17 -0800
>>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>The USAF came out with their infamous "Case
>>Closed" time-traveling crash dummy explanation for alien bodies,
>>and Col. Philip Corso also came out with his equally infamous
>>"Day After Roswell", supposedly "pro-Roswell," but possibly a
>>case of stealth debunkery because it was so full of obviously
>>inaccurate BS and exaggerated claims.

>Blunders do not make a hoaxer or a liar. Col. Corso would have
>to be both if he didn't seed alien technology into US business,
>as he says he did. The *Day After Roswell* is about that fact
>and is not intended as a history of the cold war and shouldn't
>be read in that way. It comes down to whether you believe he was
>trying to tell the truth, not whether he produced a mistake free
>document.

<snip>

>He may have make numerous mistakes, but his testimony concerning
>the seeding of alien technology is a lie or it's the truth. It
>is certainly not a "mistake". Was he telling the truth about
>that or wasn't he? If he wasn't, then he's a liar and a fake.

<snip>

>I have no proof that Col. Corso is telling the truth other than
>my knowledge that he was an honorable and truthful person, a
>super patriot and well respected by his peers.

<snip>

>When he states that our government has seeded alien technology
>into the US business community and that he should know because
>he was the person who accomplished the task, I believe him. He
>had no reason to lie and there is no evidence that he has done
>so in the past.

Corso's books is so full of serious "mistakes" and exaggerations
that they can't be brushed off as merely sloppy writing or story
telling. Corso was up to something. Whether it was personal
aggrandizement or the "superpatriot" carrying out one last
mission on behalf of someone else we may never know. However, I
think it is indisputable that such a horribly written,
inaccurate book, if meant to advance the case for Roswell,
actually did more of the opposite. That's what I meant by
"stealth debunkery."

Does this mean that Corso was also necessarily lying about alien
technology being seeded into corporate America? No, the book
could have been a mix of truth and lies, the lies eventually
serving to discredit the factual parts of the book. The various
phony "MJ-12 papers" may have a similar intent. The best place
to hide the truth is out in the open surrounded by lies and
half-truths. (Just try figuring out which is which.) Such
disinformation can act to both obfuscate and educate, while
maintaining full plausible deniability.

Anyhow, this is a tangent, not really a part of the main thread,
which is about how the Skeptical Inquirer defended Charles
Moore's Mogul balloon trajectory hoax and thus became an
accomplice to the hoax. However, for all we know, maybe Moore
and CSICOP are carrying out a mission as well.


David Rudiak








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   Dec > Dec 14

                  Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:05:51 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:35:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Harney


>From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:03:50 -0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:07:13 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>>Look, this was not a cruise liner - it was a Brazilian Navy
>>_training_ship_. Sailing ships (with auxiliary engines) like the
>>Almirante Saldanha are also used by other navies. They are used
>>to train young recruits in seamanship and _discipline_, so that
>>they can cope with any emergencies they are likely to encounter
>>at sea. An obvious emergency, for a naval vessel, would be the
>>appearance of an unidentified and possibly hostile aircraft. Yet,
>>when this happens the men on the deck of the Almirante Saldanha
>>just panic (if we believe Barauna). This is not a trivial matter;
>>it must be clarified if we are to take the story seriously.

>Since the detailed disposition of the men on deck does not seem
>to be known, might the men have been 'frantically running'
>*towards* their various stations as a result of what you
>describe as an emergency? In the circumstances - a first real-
>life defensive alert for young recruits - it wouldn't be
>surprising if this deployment were just a bit chaotic, would it?
>The more so if there were indeed a 'flying saucer' swooping
>past!

>Good point about the tripod, though.

If this business about the apparent disorder on deck when the
UFO was sighted were the only peculiar detail, then perhaps it
wouldn't tend to make the sighting seem doubtful. But there are
a number of other difficulties with the story, most of which
have been steadfastly ignored, or brushed aside as unimportant,
by the believers.

For instance, if the film which was said to have the UFO images
on it was so important, why was it developed under conditions
which could easily have ruined it, as I have alreadey asked?
Also, why were many crew members allegedly allowed to examine
it, even before it had dried? Surely no serious photographer
would allow this. More seriously, if the film was considered so
important, why was Barauna allowed to take it to his private
laboratory before it could be examined by Navy photographic
experts?

I could go on, but it is probably futile, as this case has
obviously been included in the canon of Sacred UFO Mysteries, so
may not questioned. Any doubt, disbelief or denial is likely to
incur the penalty of anathematisation by the big beasts of the
ufological jungle (or something like that).


John Harney








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                     Re: Alien Abductee Stress - Scherk

From: William Scott Scherk <wss@uniserve.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 08:40:26 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:47:37 -0500
Subject: Re:  Alien Abductee Stress - Scherk


>From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:17:34 EST
>Subject: Re: Alien Abductee Stress

>>From: William Scott Scherk <wss@uniserve.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 08:11:06 -0800
>>Subject: Alien Abductee Stress


>Intriguing article from ScienCentral.com
___________________________________________

>Source: ScienCentral.com

>http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?article_id=218392122

<snip>

Fascinating.

---------------

>William - this might interest you:

>For sale: 5 pounds of assorted nuts and bolts, some
>rust. $1.

>Also, a 45-year-old lawnmower. Doesn't run. The blade
>housing (the protective shield) has partially
>corroded along the top surface, leaving dangerous
>holes. 4-cycle B&S engine, 1 sparkplug. $5.


What I found intriguing was the range of opinion in the
ScienCentral article.

As you know, McNally and colleagues had earlier done some
interesting research on three other groups: those who always
remembered child sexual abuse; those who 'recovered' memories of
child sexual abuse; and those who believed that they had once
been sexually abused, but had no memories of such a thing.

As you can imagine, Greg, there were some objections to this
line of research. The findings that there were differences in
several psychological measure were challenged - not least that
differences in measures of dissociation and absorption among the
'repressed memory' cohort could be correlated with the
(unremembered) trauma itself:

See:

McNally, R. J., Clancy, S. A., Schacter, D. L., & Pitman,  R. K.
(2000). Personality profiles, dissociation, and absorption in
women reporting repressed, recovered, or continuous memories of
childhood sexual abuse. Journal of Consulting and Clinical
Psychology, 68, 1033-1037.

McNally, R. J., Clancy, S. A., & Schacter, D. L. (2001).
Directed forgetting of trauma cues in adults reporting repressed
or recovered memories of childhood sexual  abuse. Journal of
Abnormal Psychology, 110, 151-156.

McNally, R. J., Clancy, S. A., Schacter, D. L., & Pitman,  R. K.
(2000). Cognitive processing of trauma cues in adults reporting
repressed, recovered, or continuous memories of childhood sexual
abuse. Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 109, 355-359.

McNally, R. J., Metzger, L. J., Lasko, N. B., Clancy, S. A., &
Pitman, R. K. (1998). Directed forgetting of trauma cues in
adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse with and without
posttraumatic stress disorder. Journal of Abnormal Psychology,
107, 596-601.
____________________

These series of investigations were followed by the work
reported by ScienCentral:

Clancy, S. A., McNally, R. J., Schacter, D. L., Lenzenweger, M.
F., & Pitman, R. K. (2002). Memory distortion in people
reporting abduction by aliens. Journal of Abnormal Psychology,
111, 455-461.

Although the early series of studies was suggestive, its data
could not really _prove_ that a particular personality profile -
or differing performances - was related to the events at issue.
In other words, it could be suggested that the tendencies of the
'repressed memories' group were related to false memory
formation, but the findings were not conclusive - a horrible
trauma could just as likely have led to the measured personality
differences.


Clancy et al, however, hit upon a different angle. In this one,
different cohorts were studied: those who had 'recovered'
memories of alien abduction, and those who believed they had
been abducted on while not having memories (as with the first
series).

And in this new one, the same general results: "Hypnotic
suggestibility, depressive symptoms, and schizotypic features
were significant predictors of false recall and false
recognition."

http://tinyurl.com/z0ss

(the false recall measures were derived from the Roediger-
McDermott paradigm)

McNally and Clancy assembled a study group whose members
believed they'd recovered memories (usually under hypnosis) of
alien abduction, along with a repressed memory group whose
members believed they'd been abducted but had no conscious
memory of the event. (This group inferred their abduction from
physical abrasions, waking in strange positions or sometimes
just from their penchant for science fiction.) There was also a
terrestrially bound control group who reported no abduction
experiences.

The recovered and repressed memory groups exhibited high rates
of false recall on the word-recognition test. Those with
"intact" memories of abduction fared worse than those who
believed their memories were repressed.

And on measures of Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome, those who
believed they had been abducted had scores that were more or
less identical to those who had suffered a more widely-accepted
trauma.


WSS
www.wsse.ca








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                     UFO Experience/Omega Communications

From: Chris Burns <Thurstonoreggae@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:47:44 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:49:02 -0500
Subject: UFO Experience/Omega Communications



Hey List,

Does anyone know if tapes from the series of old Omega
Communications (John White) UFO Experience conferences from
Connecticut are still available anywhere?


Thanks,

Chris Burns








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             Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case! -

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 13:22:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:55:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case! -



>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 09:32:17 -0200
>Subject: Re: Trindade Not Another 'Barra Da Tijuca' Case!

<snip>

>After I posted the translated material here about the Trindade
>Island photos, the interest in Barra da Tijuca began among
>Listers. I then asked my friend and co-worker, Marcos Malvezzi,
>to translate another article by Claudeir Covo, this time about
>the BT case. It will soon be ready to post here.

Thanks, A.J. I look forward to reading that translation.


Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery








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                      Kecksburg FOIA Request To US Army

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:11:05 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:53:59 -0500
Subject: Kecksburg FOIA Request To US Army



To: rmda.belvoir.army.mil@cavtel.net


TO:   Freedom of Information Manager
      Headquarters, U. S. Department of the Army
      7798 Cissna Road -- Suite 205
      Springfield, VA  22150-3166

FROM: Larry W. Bryant
      3518 Martha Custis Drive
      Alexandria, VA  22302

DATE:  December 14, 2003

Several months ago, journalist Leslie Kean, with assistance of
attorney Lee Helfrich, submitted to your office a freedom-of-
information request for access to all U. S. Army-generated
records pertaining to the crash-landing and U.S.-government
retrieval of a mysterious aerial craft near Kecksburg, Pa., on
Dec. 9, 1965.

Kean's quest for ALL official records about that pivotal
incident in UFO-related operations/counterintelligence continues
unabated today - as highlighted by a special TV documentary
broadcast by the SciFi Channel several weeks ago.

With this identifying background, I now submit this letter as a
formal, written FOIA request that you send me a photo-copy of
the entire contents of the HQDA case file being maintained to
record and track the Kean-Helfrich FOIA request to date - said
contents to include all correspondence, e-mail, records-search
tasking documents, administrative memoranda/notes, action log
sheets, records-review decisions, and appeals documentation .

Because of the obvious public-interest nature of the sought-for
case file, and because of my status as an independent writer
specializing in determining (and exposing) what certain federal
agencies know (and when they knew it) about UFO reality, I
hereby request that you waive all records-search fees incident
to your fulfilling this request.

By snail-mail, I'm sending to you a signed printout of this
e-formatted letter.


Larry W. Bryant
Columnist for the Web Site of http://www.ufocity.com

Copies furnished to:

Peter Robbins, Editor-in-Chief, ufocity.com

Mark S. Zaid, Esq. (Washington, D.C.)








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             Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions

From: Reed Hall <tanaleaf@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 16:49:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:47:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions


Apropos of recent discussion on this List, David Jacobs has had
abduction cases in which religiously-minded abductees have
called upon God, Jesus, or other forms of deity for divine aid
at the onset of an abduction event.

Such pleas for divine intervention have indeed often seemed to
such abductees to have had the desired result: the apparent
thwarting of an imminent abduction. These abductees have
reported that, by calling upon the name of Jesus (for example),
aliens were stopped in their tracks, and simply vanished.

Subsequent investigation of these cases, however, has uncovered
different results. Jacobs reports that, in his cases, hypnotic
regression has revealed that the abduction event was not
thwarted at all. Rather, the abductee's memory of the actual
abduction has been (as is so often the case anyway) suppressed,
leaving them with conscious memories only of the beginning of
the event (the aliens' arrival, and the abductee's prayerful
petition for divine intervention) and of the end of the event
(the aliens' departure following the completed abduction).

In such cases, the retaining only of conscious memories of
beginnings and endings may understandably leave abductees with
the impression that their prayer, or similar appeal for divine
aid, has succeeded in stopping an abduction. However, it appears
(at least in the particular cases of this sort which Jacobs has
investigated) that such is not the case at all.


Reed Hall







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                      Inter-World Life Transport Argued

From: William Scott Scherk <wss@uniserve.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 00:37:31 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:18:37 -0500
Subject: Inter-World Life Transport Argued


Source: BBC News Online

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3305503.stm


Wednesday, 10 December, 2003

Inter-world life transport argued

By Dr David Whitehouse
BBC News Online science editor


Life could quickly spread throughout the galaxy Astronomers may
have shown how microbes from Earth could be spread throughout
the galaxy taking life to other worlds.

Scientists at Armagh Observatory and Cardiff University say
bacteria could get into space on rocks blasted off the planet by
an asteroid or comet impact.

Their calculations then indicate the microbes would eventually
leak out of our Solar System to seed other regions.

The work is reported in two independent papers published in the
Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society.

The implication of the papers is that life could be widespread
throughout the galaxy and may not have originated on our planet.


Plenty enough for life


The research advances the case for modern-day panspermia - the
controversial idea that life started elsewhere in space and came
to Earth when it was young.

Dr Max Wallis and Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe of Cardiff
University calculate how debris from Earth, thrown into space as
a result of a giant impact, would become incorporated in the
frozen outer layers of comets.

Possible fossil microbes have been identified in Martian
meteorites Eventually, after hundreds of millions of years, some
of these comets would reach the Edgeworth-Kuiper Belt - a region
inhabited by small worlds made of rock and ice.

Because comets gradually leak into interstellar space from this
region, some would eventually reach clouds of gas and dust that
are new planetary systems in formation.

In these systems, the trapped microbes would be liberated and,
if the conditions were right, introduce life on to the surfaces
of primitive planets.

Wallis and Wickramasinghe are encouraged in their belief that
microbes can survive on such a journey for hundreds of millions,
if not billions, of years, by recent discoveries of microbes
that have survived for similar periods encased in rock in the
Earth.

Their detailed calculations suggest that between a few kilograms
and perhaps a tonne of material containing microbes could be
passed from our Solar System to others.

They say that one kg of "spore-bearing material is plenty for
seeding a new planetary system with life". Full text:
http://tinyurl.com/z9zd


WSS
www.wsse.ca








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                     Re: Bill Moore Sells Off? - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:30:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:08:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Bill Moore Sells Off? - Aldrich


>From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@presidency.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 23:46:54 -0500
>Subject: Bill Moore Sells Off?

>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3573001472&category=1128

All those who have sent Bill Moore money for publications or
reports and never got anything for it raise your hands.

My, my, a sea of hands! Or is it fists?


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135








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                       Re: Abduction Statistics - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:26:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:50:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Statistics - Hall


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 16:50:16 -0500
>Subject: Re: Abduction Statistics

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:38:54 +0000
>>Subject: Abduction Statistics [was: Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Ab
ductions

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:14:23 EST
>>>Subject: Re: Asking Jesus For Intervention Stops Abductions

<snip>

>Hi Dick,

>You wrote:

>>I have said many times that, as an "expert" abstractor/indexer
>>with decades of experience, I could easily - with funding -
>>create a database on all the demographic and other factors. But,
>>no funding is available and I have already bankrupted myself
>>doing "pro bono" work.

>We need to think about formally asking CFI/Sci-Fi channel
>about _funding_ such a worthy/worthwhile and necessary project.
>About a year ago you, Jim Speiser, myself and a couple of others
>discussed the possibility of codifying some criteria for determining
>who and what qualifies as an "UFO abduction case." Something which
>has still not been done after 30+ years.

>A most recent example of the lack of same is Brenda Denzler's
>informal survey. If the respondents were people who fit an
>established set of criteria (had been screened/qualified) for
>consideration, then see how much more relevant and truly
>representative the findings become. The more reliable the
>results/findings of such studies become, the more reliable the
>speculation that is based on those findings becomes. Why, in no
>time flat we may actually obtain some answers to questions that
>have been floating around since day one and that we can actually
>rely on.

>A formal proposal needs to be drafted and submitted to CFI or
>the sci-fi channel people. To whoever it is that holds the purse
>strings. The creation of a set of diagnostic tools that research
>people in the field can use to help them determine which UFO
>abduction case is worthy of/justifies further investigation, and
>which cases/reports do not, would go a long way toward purifying
>the foundation, the source of information that can later be used
>to create a database of _reliable_ information.

>I for one would sign on to promote the creation of that set of
>diagnostic criteria. And who better to head up such a project
>than a guy with over 50 years experience!

>>There is no lack of a talent pool.

>Not at all. Mark Rodighier from CUFOS, yourself and any number
>of others I could name, (including brilliant, knowledgeable  and
>genuinely open-minded people like Greg Sandow) would make a
>formidable team!

>A monumental task for sure. But a most worthy one nonetheless.

<snip>

John,

I would be delighted to receive funding for developing an
abduction case database. However, a database and a set of DSM-V
diagnostic criteria are two very different things. Both are
worthy projects, and the database could help with the diagnostic
criteria.

But for starters the database would have to be a "common sense"
one based on people who report abduction-like experiences (just
as people report UFO-like objects in the sky and the definition
of "UFO" is a bit loose). Just as with reported UFOs, some may
not turn out to be legitimate. Each entry in the database could
be evaluated by what "experts" we have as to completeness of
information and credibility of reporter, and assigned some kind
of weight (say, 1-5).

I don't know that the Sci-Fi Channel is into accepting grant
proposals, but I'll ask my friends at the Fund for UFO Research.
It is possible that they might be able to work out some funding
with the help of the Sci-Fi Channel.

As I envision the database, it would contain for each entry an
abstract of the case, key words/concepts, and indexing terms.
The index requires a thesaurus of terms so that everyone is on
the same page. What I could do is develop the format, the
thesaurus, and a start on the database, and a handbook for
others to use to enter additional cases in the future since it
would be an open-ended database. Scoientific databases are not
fixed and static; they continue to grow and evolve. Once set up,
the database can be searched by subscribers (if it is pay-as-
you-go) or by the public (if it is free) using the index terms.

For example, all cases in which a UFO sighting preceded the
abduction, hypnotic recall or not, location (indoors, outdoors,
in vehicle...), procedures done on abductees, physiological
aftereffects, etc., etc, all would be searchable.

I'm sure it would be a boon to everyone in the UFO field, pro,
con, or undecidied.

- Dick








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                     Re: World UFO Link & Ad Page - Hale

From: Roy Hale - The Lost Haven <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:18:16 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:54:06 -0500
Subject: Re: World UFO Link & Ad Page - Hale


Dear Colleagues,

I have just placed a new section on my UFO Site, which will
enable groups or investigators, to Submit their DATA, for
placement for viewing by the world surfers, looking for UFO
contacts and DATA, and those who like to purchase Book, DVDs,
Videos, Mags.

If you would like to submit your details on this section, then
please make sure your details are very clear, and the links are
working. I will not submit DATA that is unformatted, and needs a
lot of rewriting, this is your job, neat, tidy, and readable.

I will also allow Authors, and such like to place their Ads for
everyone to see, as I get quite  a lot of people who have the
intention to purchase items of UFO interest.

This is open to UFO Groups and researchers across the globe.

If placing DATA on my site, make sure it is accompanied by a
contact e-mail address, as many of my readers like to contact
people, for email questions and discussions, on areas of UFO
research.

This is a totally FREE service provided by me.

You can find the page here:

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/WLINKUFO.htm

Best Regards,


Roy








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               Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:23:55 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:56:21 -0500
Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Gehrman


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:55:24 EST
>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

<snip>

>The question also boils down to allegedly what technology was
>seeded into the private sector? Meaning what specific technology
>did Corso and Army FTD give to companies which allowed them to
>make some technological leap that they hadn't/couldn't have made
>previously?

Robert, EBK, List,

The pieces and parts of the crashed Roswell craft, found in what
he referred to as his "nut file" were the transferred
technology. He also passed on pertinent reports that were either
in the file or obtained by other means.

Below is a quote from what I consider to be a balanced review of
"The Day After Roswell". All the seeded technology that Corso
managed went to programs already in place and to companies that
had an established relationship with the Army as contractors. As
I've pointed out before, seeding isn't all that the FTD offered,
but also fertilizer in the form of cost-plus contracts to
guarantee that development proceeded on schedule:

"Corso describes many of the technologies and products that he
says are the direct result of reverse-engineering alien
artifacts: integrated circuits, lasers, optical fibers, super-
 strong fabrics like Kevlar, stealth technology, EMP devices to
disable electronics, and directed energy weapons. He intimates
that much of the work done on mind control technologies was
inspired by apparent alien use of such technologies to control
their craft and abducted humans, and is largely intended to
develop countermeasures and to control our own hardware."

http://www.naturalhealthholistic.com/corsorev.html


Ed








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                          Secrecy News -- 12/15/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:14:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:59:26 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 12/15/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 108
December 15, 2003


**      DOD WITHHOLDS STUDY ON ANTHRAX LESSONS LEARNED
**      BUSH SIGNS 2004 INTEL BILL INTO LAW
**      SECURITY CLEARANCE POLICY IN DISARRAY
**      ACCURACY OF THE FISA APPLICATION PROCESS
**      US NEWS ON BUSH ADMINISTRATION SECRECY
**      CRS ON POST-SADDAM IRAQ


DOD WITHHOLDS STUDY ON ANTHRAX LESSONS LEARNED

In the latest sign of the expanding scope of official secrecy,
the Department of Defense has formally refused to release a
report on lessons learned from the 2001 anthrax attacks, in
which anthrax spores were sent through the mail to members of
Congress and the media, even though the report is unclassified.

What makes the move somewhat unusual is that the Pentagon did
not invoke national security as the reason for withholding the
document.

Instead, in denying a Freedom of Information Act request from
the Federation of American Scientists for the anthrax study, the
Department cited FOIA exemption (b)(2) (High) which protects
information that, "if disclosed, might be used to circumvent an
agency rule or regulation."  No particular agency rule or
regulation was identified.

Furthermore, "this document falls under the guidance of the US
Attorney General memorandum, dated October 12, 2001, that
restricts the public distribution of information related to
homeland security and protection of critical infrastructure,"
according to the December 12 denial letter from the Defense
Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA).  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2003/12/dtra121203.pdf

But exemption 2 is completely inapplicable to this document, FAS
argued in a letter of appeal.  Nor is the Attorney General
authorized to unilaterally impose new "restrictions on public
distribution of information" that go beyond the nine exemptions
from disclosure that were provided in the FOIA.  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2003/12/dtra-appeal.pdf

The Department of Defense seems to have so clearly exceeded its
authority in this case that if the appeal is denied, the stage
may be set for corrective judicial action.  A successful legal
challenge in this case could help to limit the growing practice
of using FOIA exemption 2 to withhold information on
unclassified homeland security and critical infrastructure
matters.

"I'm amazed that DoD is giving this case to you on a silver
platter," said one former DTRA official who said he found the
agency's argument for withholding the document untenable.

"There is no 'rule or regulation' DoD can cite that has any
relevance to this whatsoever -- let alone one that they can
accuse this report of subverting."

"For their sake, I can only hope that [DTRA] realizes that
denying your appeal is going to have the effect, when you win in
court, of striking down DoD's entire information management
policy," the former official told Secrecy News, anticipating one
possible sequence of events.  (See also SN, 8/19/03).


BUSH SIGNS 2004 INTEL BILL INTO LAW

President Bush signed into law the 2004 intelligence
authorization bill on December 13, while signaling a continuing
posture of secrecy towards congressional overseers.

In a signing statement, he warned that he might not comply with
several legislative provisions on intelligence accountability
and reporting because, he said, they intruded on executive
authority.

"Many provisions of the Act, including section 106 and subtitle
D of title III of the Act, seek to require the executive branch
o furnish information to the Congress on various subjects. The
executive branch shall construe the provisions in a manner
consistent with the President's constitutional authority to
withhold information the disclosure of which could impair
foreign relations, national security, the deliberative processes
of the Executive, or the performance of the Executive's
constitutional duties."

See the December 13 signing statement here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2003/12/wh121303.html


SECURITY CLEARANCE POLICY IN DISARRAY

After a decade of concerted effort to streamline and rationalize
the procedures for granting security clearances, there are still
major defects in security clearance policy, particularly when it
comes to industrial contractors doing classified work for the
government, according to a new report.

First and foremost, the system is plagued by delays in handling
of clearance applications, which sometimes take several years to
be processed, according to the 2002 report of the National
Industrial Security Program (NISP).

"According to those interviewed, the delays cost industry
countless millions of dollars per year," the NISP report stated.
 "Often individuals left the company before they actually worked
in the position they were hired for, due to delays in the
clearance process."

Another major problem concerns the erosion in "reciprocity,"
i.e. the growing unwillingness of one agency to accept the
clearances issued by another agency without conducting a
separate, independent investigation.

"Based upon the responses given, it is difficult to recognize
that the entire executive branch is supposed to be operating
under uniform investigative standards and adjudicative
guidelines for security clearances," the report said.

"Overall, this report reveals that items identified as progress
points in our January 1999 NISP report are no longer
progressing," it said.

A copy of the 2002 NISP report, published last month by the
Information Security Oversight Office, is available here (1.7 MB
PDF file):

http://www.fas.org/sgp/isoo/nisp2002.pdf


ACCURACY OF THE FISA APPLICATION PROCESS

The integrity of the procedures for authorizing clandestine
search and surveillance under the Foreign Intelligence
Surveillance Act was called into question in recent years after
several instances in which inaccurate information was presented
to a court in applications for such surveillance.

In response, the Federal Bureau of Investigation two years ago
adopted new procedures to "ensure the accuracy" of its
applications.

A copy of the so-called Woods Procedures, named after their
author, Michael J. Woods of the FBI Office of General Counsel,
and declassified last year, is available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/woods.pdf

In reply to questions for Senator Patrick J. Leahy (D-VT), FBI
Director Robert Mueller explained the background and context of
the procedures.

Director Mueller's responses, transmitted August 29, 2003, were
sent to the Senate Judiciary Committee and are excerpted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/fbi082903.pdf

FBI reliance on the FISA process is increasing as previous,
long-held distinctions between law enforcement and intelligence
are swept away.

See "FBI Applies New Rules to Surveillance" by Dan Eggen,
Washington Post, December 13:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60964-
2003Dec12.html


US NEWS ON BUSH ADMINISTRATION SECRECY

The extraordinary reach of official secrecy in the Bush
Administration is explored in a lengthy investigation published
this week in U.S. News and World Report.

The story goes well beyond the familiar excesses to include many
lesser known but no less troublesome restrictions on public
access to information that have become a hallmark of the current
Administration.

See "Keeping Secrets" by Christopher H. Schmitt and Edward T.
Pound, U.S. News and World Report, December 22:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/031222/usnews/22secrecy.htm


CRS ON POST-SADDAM IRAQ

The daunting complexities of Iraq's internal political
environment after the fall of Saddam Hussein are explored in a
new report from the Congressional Research Service (completed
before the capture of Hussein on December 13).

See "Iraq: U.S. Regime Change Efforts and Post-Saddam
Governance" by Kenneth Katzman, Congressional Research Service,
updated November 18:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL31339.pdf

Rep. Bob Ney (R-OH) does not believe the American public should
have routine access to CRS reports like this one.

Rep. Ney, chair of the House Committee on House Administration,
attempted to explain his position in "Ney Draws Line at Public
Access to Research," by Paul M. Krawzak, Copley News Service,
December 11:

http://www.timesreporter.com/left.php?ID=25035&r=4


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691






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              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:21:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:03:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Velez


>From: Captain Alejandro Franz <alfafox@Prodigy.net.mx>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:41:33 -0700
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>I can provide some information about this case, another one of
>many J. Maussan hoaxes. The Aeromexico DC9 flight 129 from
>Guadalajara to Mexico's City Intl. Airport that supposedly had a
>collision with a UFO when approaching runway 05 right at
>Mexico's Intl. Airport on july 1994.

>I know personally the "eyewitness" Enrique Kolbeck, an Air
>Traffic Controller, very close to Jaime Maussan because he is
>the one who always has been invited to join the "team" of
>"eyewitnesses" at all UFO conventions that Maussan has organized
>since 1997.

<snip>

Hola Capt. Franz,

I am not an 'expert'. Therefore I will not argue or debate point
by point the many issues you have raised in regard to this
alleged collision case. What it all boils down to is this; you
are saying (in essence) that Enrique Kolbeck, and Capt. Ruano,
who are the principles reporting this incident in conjunction
with Jaime Maussan, are lying. That there is no 'collision case'
as such.

That's pretty strong stuff. I hope you can prove your
contentions. I have a tendency to believe the testimony of the
pilot and the ground support person who both say that it _did_
happen. You expressed yourself eloquently in English in your
initial post. I wonder if wouldn't be too much to ask if you can
translate and publish here to the List, the contents of the
webpage that you referred me to. I do not have the time to
translate it myself.

We all need to hear both sides of this argument. I'd also like
to ask you if you were there (working at the control tower) when
the alleged collision took place?

One other point, you said that it would have been impossible to
detect the OVNI as a separate object on radar if Ruano's plane
had been directly over it at the time Kolbeck warned him about
it.

Doesn't it make more sense that the DC9 and the OVNI would have
appeared as separate and distinct blips because Kolbeck was
_fore-warning_ Capt. Ruano. Which means that the warning would -
by definition- have been issued _prior_ to the DC9 having
reached the position of the UFO/OVNI. Ergo, Kolbeck would have
seen _two_ distinct blips. According to the facts of the case he
would have had to see two separate blips in order to be able to
_warn_ Ruano of the impending collision.

If you can please translate your material and post it here, it
would be most helpful to those considering the merits of the
case. Thank you in advance for your time and co-operation.

At some point I would like to invite Enrique Kolbeck and Capt.
Ruano to address the points you are raising. If not here on this
List, on-air on Strange Days... Indeed.


Thank you,

John Velez








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                    Re: Denzler Abduuctee Survey? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:39:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:05:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Denzler Abduuctee Survey? - Velez


>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:04:43 -0700
>Subject: Re: Denzler Abduuctee Survey?

>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 13:58:49 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Denzler Abduuctee Survey?

>>It is not for lack of wanting to, or people being willing to do
>>the work. It all boils down to cash, compensation and hardware.
>>In another thread I have suggested that a formal proposal should
>>be drafted and submitted to CFI and the Sci-Fi channel to see if
>>funding cannot be found to put Dick Hall to work on this
>>project. Dick can _easily_ round up many good people who will be
>>ready, willing and able to assist in whatever capacity may be
>>required/needed. All it takes is -grease- moola-boola, cash on
>>the barrel-head. The end result would be a worthwhile and
>>invaluable database, set of statistics, and diagnostic tools.
>>Tools that would have been formulated/based on the data.

Hi Jim,

I've missed your sage rumblings on the List. Good to know you're
still out there. You wrote:

>FWIW I'm still willing to do volunteer a little time to an
>abduction catalog project. I do suggest, however, that if you go
>to CFI/Sci-Fi for funding, that we find some way of suggesting
>how the project might end up as a TV program or special,
>otherwise I can almost guarantee they won't be interested. It
>won't be easy coming up with a way to make such "dry" research
>into an exciting two-hour special starring Bryant Gumball.

ROFLMAO!

Well, first you grab Ms. Piggy by the chin hairs and then you
apply the eye-shadow first, followed by rouge and lip gloss.
Once Ms. Piggy has on pretty make-up, you strut her back and
forth in front of her prospective beau and see if he actually
tries to kiss her. :)

Let me think on that one a bit. If I can come up with a good
angle we'll use it to pitch the idea to the people at CFI/SCI-
FI. You are absolutely correct though, I don't think they'll
give it the time of day unless it will translate into some kind
of TV special.

Not an insurmountable obstacle though. I want to give it a go.
Maybe we can get this little pink pig to fly!

Great to hear from you, Jim.


Warm regards from cold New York,

John Velez








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                     MUFON Canada Symposium Announcement

From: Eugene Frison <GeneFrison@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:26:39 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:09:46 -0500
Subject: MUFON Canada Symposium Announcement


2003.12.15


Dear List:

MUFON in Canada is pleased to announce an upcoming event - The
MUFON First Annual Canadian UFO Symposium. It will take place on
September 18, 2004 at Alderney Landing in Dartmouth, Nova
Scotia. The symposium will be a one day event under the theme
UFO's... Thinking Outside The Box. Speakers have been chosen
and more detail will be provided in the very near future.

Regards,

Eugene Frison


MUTUAL UFO NETWORK, INC. (MUFON)
`````````````````````````````````````````````````

INTERNATIONAL HEADQUARTERS
mufonhq@aol.com
John Schuessler - International Director


CANADIAN BOARD OF DIRECTORS

CANADIAN HEAD OFFICE
genefrison@aol.com
Eugene Frison - National Director

CANADIAN CASES INVESTIGATION COMMITTEE
cjas55@yahoo.ca
Chris Styles - Canadian Director of Investigations

CANADIAN RECORDS AND RESEARCH
mjs@intergate.ca
ebarker2@mb.sympatico.ca
Michael Strainic ... Ed Barker
Co-Directors of Canadian Cold Case Archives and Research

EASTERN REGION
linda.chernabrow@mcgill.ca
Linda Chernabrow - Eastern Regional Director (Canada)

CENTRAL REGION
mikebird@interlog.com
Mike Bird - Central Regional Director (Canada)

WESTERN REGION
gavin_mcleod@telus.net
Gavin McLeod - Western Regional Director


WEBSITE: http://www.mufon.com







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                       Re: 1929 UFO Photo? - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:45:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:51:13 -0500
Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo? - Stanford


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 00:24:53 -0800
>Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo?

>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 09:59:24 -0600
>>Subject: 1929 UFO Photo?

>>I recently came across an interesting photograph of a UFO that
>>is said to have been taken in 1929. The photo is at this URL:

>>http://www.ufoevidence.org/Photographs/Photo121.htm

>>If genuine, it was taken 18 years before Arnold's sighting of
>>craft shaped like "pie plates" in 1947. The potential
>>significance of this is obvious.

>>Does anyone on the list know anything about this photograph or
>>has anyone physically examined it personally or interviewed its
>>owner?

>>It seems to me that it wouldn't be too hard to determine whether
>>or not the photograph is as old as it's supposed to be. If it's
>>74 years old, the passage of time should have had a noticeable
>>effect on the quality of the paper as well as the image, which
>>certainly looks as faded as would be expected in the digital
>>version. And if the photo is really that old, it would probably
>>be very difficult for a contemporary hoaxer to add the object to
>>it without leaving some noticeable traces of tampering.

>Oooh! That's a goodie (presuming its genuine).

>I had no record of it, never heard of it. Maybe it never got
>into the literature aside from the web page.

>There are lots of features called Ward in Colorado,
>(dams, mines ..) but only one town, in Boulder
>County: populated place
>Elevation (feet):  9160
>Estimated Population (2000): 169
>State:    Colorado
>County:    Boulder
>40:04:20N x 105:30:28W

>Boulder county is North of Denver, not too far East of the
>continental divide, mountain country.

>I wonder if the fellow who submitted the old photo can be
>reached.


I recommend being very careful with this case. The alleged
descendent of the photographer claims his father declared that a
"terrible thunderous bellow" was heard by all those present. If
so, then why do the two or three men in the photo seem to be
looking elsewhere than to the sky, one of them evidently doing
something with lumber, or whatever, and seemingly not trying to
locate the source of the sound, which the reporter claims the
father said those present heard?

Also, one might wonder about all that light-colored stuff
reaching almost to the tree tops (it does not really look like
stacked lumber) in the middle of the photo and the less-well-
focused white image to the right. With so many problematic
images in a photo, can one take very seriously the fact that one
or more of the strange images has a superficial resemblance to a
modern day cartoonist's concept of a UFO?

Consider, also, that the ink writing on the photo seemingly
looks too pristine and rich blue to date from 1929 (if that's
what the claimant is alleging), in my opinion, and judging from
old photos on which my mother had written with blue ink.

Furthermore, did any of you notice what might be interpreted or
misinterpreted as a similar object (but more edge-on) to the
right and slightly lower in the photo plane, that also has some
bright points on or just beneath its seeming edge and has four
seemingly linear extensions down from that edge - the longest or
clearest two of them going down from the right side of the
anomalous image and seemingly in front of the pine tree top.

If anyone really thinks that second image might be a UFO, please
notice that there are similar images to the seeming downward
streaks from the 'second object' that are extending roughly 45
degrees to those of that 'second object', but that 'third
object' is 'in' or in front of the pine tree top to the right of
the pine tree top 'containing' the second 'UFO'.

In short, even in the absence of a negative to examine for
photographic content or for emulsion damage, I think it
realistic to feel that there is a lot of damage to the negative
from which this photo was made and/or to the surface of this
photo, itself. In absence of a negative and considering the
abundant probable 'noise' in this image, it is likely of no
scientific value in determining the presence of an anomalous
phenomenon or phenomena in the sky at the time the photo was
taken, and the actions of the persons shown in the photo seem to
contradict the alleged photographer's report.

I suspect we could be looking at damage to the photographic
emulsion or photo surface damage, or even, conceivably, damage
or debris on a window (of a vehicle?) through which the photo
might have been taken, with the story added after the fact. I
suppose the person who allegedly was about six years of age when
the photo was taken might just have misremembered something told
(perhaps in jest?) or imagined (as a young child) something of a
story to explain the photo's content. Whatever accounts for the
photo - UFO or photo fluke - I doubt this kind of 'trail-gone-
cold' case (especially in absence of a first-generation
photographic negative) will gain us any UFOlogical 'mileage' or
credibility with mainstream science, even if it is fun to
examine such things and imagine what might or might not be
recorded there.

Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery







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                 CCCRN News: Midale: A Study in Crop Circle

From: Paul Anderson <psa@cccrn.ca>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:30:49 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:53:50 -0500
Subject: CCCRN News: Midale: A Study in Crop Circle




CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

December 15, 2003

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


MIDALE: A STUDY IN CROP CIRCLE CONSTRUCTION

A short report by Paul Anderson has been posted to the web site,
providing an review of three of the seven formations from
Midale, Saskatchewan in 2001 showing how while most Canadian
formations may still be simpler than those in Europe in terms of
shape or geometry, the ground construction and crop lay can
sometimes be quite complex, more so than people often think...

http://www.cccrn.ca

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an e-mail with either
Subscribe CCCRN News or Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the
subject line to: cccrnnews@cccrn.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, media and scientists

C. CCCRN, 2003








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                Re: Malaysian Villagers Claim UFO Sighting -

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:25:05 -0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 13:32:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Malaysian Villagers Claim UFO Sighting -



Source: ABC Online, Australia

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1011350.htm

Tuesday, December 16, 2003. 5:52pm (AEDT)

An unidentified flying object was sighted hovering over a quiet
village in northern Kedah state near the Thai border, the second
such sighting there in two years, a report said on Tuesday.

A nine-year-old boy saw a slow moving disc-like object about the
size of a car emitting a greenish light spinning in the air over
Banggol Cicar village near the town of Baling for about four
minutes before it disappeared, the New Straits Times said.

Mohamad Amirul Syafiq said at first he thought it was a plane
about to crash.

"I then called my friends to look at the object which was
hovering just over the top of a coconut tree behind my house,"
he was quoted as saying.

Mohamad Faiz Alias, 12, said he thought Mohamad Amirul was
joking.

"But we saw clearly the object in the air, emitting a bright
light," Mohamad Faiz said.

Kamaruddin Othman, 12, said he realised the object was not a
plane because it was silent.

His father, Othman Ahmad, 54, said he also caught sight of the
UFO before it disappeared.

Two years ago, a villager said he saw a UFO hovering in the air
while on his way to the mosque for pre-dawn prayers, the paper
said.







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                       Re: Abduction Statistics - Hall

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:06:14 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:40:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Statistics - Hall



>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:26:17 +0000
>Subject: Re: Abduction Statistics

<snip>

>I'm sure it would be a boon to everyone in the UFO field, pro,
>con, or undecidied.

>- Dick

I don't believe the very powerful "cons" are remotely interested
in the potential of that kind of "boon" and are the major hurdle
to the generation of it, sir.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $450.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Dec > Dec 17

                       UFO Roundup Volume 8, Number 48

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:55:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 07:39:56 -0500
Subject: UFO Roundup Volume 8, Number 48



     UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 8, Number 48
December 17, 2003
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan@aol.com
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


MORMONS IN PELLUCIDAR!?

     "A belief that the Earth is hollow and inhabited
within has caused a Provo, Utah man to plan an expedition
to the North Pole and possibly to the Earth's interior."
     "Steve Currey runs an expedition company in Provo
(population 105,166).  For over 40 years, he has organized
fly-fishing, kayaking, river-rafting and trekking trips
around the world.  Many locations of his trips are exotic
and fascinating, but his next destination is something way
out of the ordinary."
     "Currey was contacted by Rodney Cluff, author of
World Top Secret: Our Earth Is Hollow, to organize an
expedition to the interior of the Earth.  In his book,
Cluff explains the theory of the hollow Earth."
     "There is no guarantee the expedition will find
anything, but, if nothing else, the people will get to go
to the North Pole and the Siberian islands, Currey said."
     "Currey has chartered a nuclear icebreaker with the
capacity for 108 passengers for the purpose of taking a
group to find the polar opening."
     "The expedition is scheduled for June 26 to July 19,
2005."
     "Currey said people from all over the world have
expressed interest in going on the expedition."
     "'I am getting three to four calls a day about it,'
Currey said."
     "Passengers will have to come up with the funds to
pay for the expedition.  Costs range from $18,950 to
$20,950 per person."
     "According to a survey by LDS author R. Clayton
Brough, four percent of the LDS population believes in the
hollow Earth theory and that it is a probable explanation
for the location of the Ten Lost Tribes."
(Editor's Note: LDS stands for the Church of Jesus Christ
of the Latter-Day Saints, which was founded in upstate New
York in 1830.  Church members are often called Mormons
after the denomination's scripture, The Book of Mormon.
In 1847, Mormon prophet Brigham Young led his co-
religionists in an epic trek across the USA, from Iowa to
the Rocky Mountains, where they founded Salt Lake City.)
     "Cluff has been investigating the theory for years."
     "'I firmly believe there is a substantial amount of
scientific, historical and scriptural evidence to support
the theory,' he said."
     "The expedition will go to the North Pole in search
of the polar opening, which Cluff said he believes is
marked by land about five degrees from the pole."
     "Past explorers and indigenous Eskimos (real name:
Inuit--J.T.) have reported seeing a mirage of land in that
vicinity."
(Editor's Note:  For more on polar mirages, see The
Complete Books of Charles Fort, Dover Publications Inc.,
New York, N.Y., 1974, pages 391, 421 and 444.)
     "According to Cluff, there are people in the
government who are aware of the opening to the Inner Earth
but who have tried to keep this knowledge from the public.
'We have indications that the U.S. military does know
about it,' he said."
     "Discovering the Inner Earth will set off a new age
and a revolution in education and all aspects of society,
Cluff said."
(Editor's Note:  Between 1912 and 1944, author Edgar Rice
Burroughs wrote eight novels about the Inner Earth, which
he called Pellucidar.  The stories chronicle the
adventures of David Innes, "the Pride of Willimantic,
Connecticut," and his eccentric scientist partner, Dr.
Abner Perry, who invented the world's first subterrene,
which he called "the Iron Mole.")
     "'We believe that in this expedition, we, the people,
have a right to know,' he said."
     "Cluff said he has written about religious beliefs
that he expects to be proven when he goes on the
expedition.  One of the beliefs is that the Inner Earth is
inhabited by the throne of King David from the Bible and
that the political Kingdom of God is located there.  He
also believes that the Lost Garden of Eden is in the
hollowed Earth, and its inhabitants are friendly, highly
civilized and members of the Ten Lost Tribes."
(Editor's Comment:  ERB might give him an argument about
that.  Burroughs claimed that Pellucidar was full of
fierce dinosaurs, knuckle-dragging prehistoric hominids,
noble Cro-Magnons and gorgeous cavegirl princesses with
buffier bods than Cameron Diaz and Beyonce Knowles.)
     "Cluff also said the inner sun, which is located in
the (skies of the) Inner Earth, is the throne of Jehovah
and a paradise for the dead."
     "Other beliefs he said he hopes to prove include that
UFOs originate in the Inner Earth, and the solar wind and
the inner sun cause the Northern Lights (Aurora borealis--
J.T.)
(Editor's Note: Prominent British ufologist Brinsley le
Poer Trench, a.k.a. Lord Clancarty, also believed that
UFOs came from inside the Earth.)
     "The only other record that exists of any sort of
expedition to the Inner Earth is from explorer Admiral
Byrd.  According to the belief, Admiral Byrd flew through
the Inner Earth" via an opening at the South Pole during
Operation High Jump "in 1947."  (See the Brigham Young
University NewsNet for November 11, 2003.  Many thanks to
Michael Strainic for this news story.)
(Editor's Comment:  All this talk about an Inner Earth is
inspiring me to write a science-fiction trilogy.  The
first book will be Elvis in Pellucidar, followed by the
sequel, Lisa Marie in Pellucidar, and then the grand
finale, Jacko in Pellucidar.  Just be sure to mail me my
Hugo when I win.)


SADDAM HUSSEIN CAPTURED

     "U.S. troops caught Saddam Hussein in a hole in the
ground near his hometown" Saturday, December 13, 2003,
"ending an eight-month manhunt."
     "The ex-dictator, bearded and haggard, was pulled
from a 6-foot-deep hole in the rural village of Ad-Dawr,
near the Tigris River, a few miles from his hometown" of
Al-Ouja, southeast of Trikrit.
     "He was captured about 8 p.m. Saturday local time
after a tip from a member of a family 'close to Saddam,'
said Maj. Gen. Ray Odierno, commander of the" U.S. Army's
4th Infantry Division.
     Saddam was the fifth head of state to be captured by
the U.S. Army.  His predecessors include Jefferson Davis,
president of the Confederate States of America, in 1865;
Goyathalay (better known as Geronimo--J.T.), president of
Apacheria, in 1886; Emilio Aguinaldo, president of the
Philippines, in 1901; and Manuel Noriega, president of
Panama, in 1989.
     At 6 p.m., "about 600 soldiers from the 1st Brigade
Combat Team of the 4th Infantry Division" raided two
locations in Ad-Dawr as part of Operation Red Dawn.
     "When U.S. soldiers first searched two houses" in Ad-
Dawr, "a village of orange, lemon and palm groves near the
Tigris River Saturday, they thought they had missed Saddam
Hussein again."
     "But then they saw two men running away.  And then
they found $750,000 in (USA) $100 bills.  Soldiers (then)
spotted a rug on the ground covered with dirt nd bricks,
and when they removed it, they found a Styrofoam pad.
When that was lifted, they found what a military officer
called a 'spider hole' leading to a hidden chamber."
     Saddam was found lying in the chamber, armed with a
pistol which he did not use.
     "U.S. forces didn't immediately realize that they had
Saddam.  U.S. officials said Saddam admitted his identity
after his capture."
     "Odierno said Saddam was 'very much bewildered' when
he was taken away and was 'tired' and 'resigned' to his
fate."
     One Army officer claimed Saddam looked "disoriented"
when he was pulled out of the underground hideaway.
     "But Iraqis who visited him had a different
impression.  'He was unrepentant and defiant,' said Adel
Abdel-Mahdi, a senior official of a Shiite political
party, who along with other members of the Iraqi Governing
Council, visited Saddam in captivity."  (See USA Today for
December 15, 2003, "Iraqi ex-dictator found hiding in a
hole," page 1A; "Trusted 'nobody' pointed way to hide-
out," page 1A; "Initial focus was on identification," page
4A; and "Last refuge a hole in the ground," page 5A.)
(Editor's Comment:  And so, Saddam Hussein is captured at
last.  Will he talk about the Zarzi aliens?  Or will he
keep silent?  Stay tuned...)


YELLOW ORB UFO SEEN IN
KERMAN, CALIFORNIA

     On Sunday, December 7, 2003, the male witness
reported, "I went outside at 11:50 p.m. just before
Stargate came on to see if it was getting foggy.  Walked
around to the side of my house and in the distance was a
yellow orb.  From my perspective, it looked like it was
just over the Kettlemen Hills" in Kerman, California
(population 8,551).
     "I just thought it was the planet Mars.  'Cause I saw
it (Mars) in the sky every night during the summer," he
added, "I had to go pee really bad so I went back inside.
Did my business, then went back outside and saw it was
still there.  Ran back inside to get my mom and sister
up."
     "Took about five minutes to get them up and outside.
And when we got outside, it was gone.  Later, I was
sitting watching Stargate and got to thinking it (the orb)
was bigger than Mars looked when it was closest to the
Earth, and that, if it had been a planet, it wouldn't have
gone out of sight in ten minutes."
     The witness estimated that the UFO "hovered maybe 700
feet (210 meters) above the tallest mountain" in the
Kettlemen Hills.
     Kerman, Cal. is on Highway 180 approximately 17 miles
(27 kilometers) west of Fresno.  (Email Form Report)


CIGAR-SHAPED UFO SEEN
IN LAUNCESTON, TASMANIA

     On Saturday, December 13, 2003, at 10:05 p.m.,
eyewitness A.B. reported, "Me and George were at my
country property just north of Launceston" in Australia's
island state of Tasmania, "sitting outside, having a
smoke.  At about 10:05 p.m., George noticed a long, cigar-
shaped glowing object approaching from the northeast, high
in the sky."
     "As it approached the property, it slid lower into
the sky and appeared as if it would land.  And, as fast as
it appeared, it flew away with only a slight tingling in
the air to confirm it had ever been there at all.  It was
about 80 meters (264 feet) above ground, lowering to about
20 meters (66 feet).  At its minimum speed, I would say it
approached 200 kilometers per hour (120 miles per hour)."
     Launceston is in northern Tasmania, about 250
kilometers (150 miles) north of Hobart, the state capital.
(Email Form Report)


TRIANGULAR UFO SIGHTED
IN NORTHERN IRELAND

     On Thursday, December 11, 2003, Milton Clarke was
outdoors in his hometown of Clogher, County Tyrone,
Northern Ireland, UK when "a UFO approached from the
north."
     "It seemed like a glowing triangle, really bright,"
Milton reported, "I couldn't see any markings.  It was
very close to the ground at one point.  Triangle with
bright glow.  It was 20 metres (66 feet) off the ground at
one point.  It came in very fast, slowed down to a stop,
then flew away very fast towards the west."
     "I took some pictures, but it's hard to know if it
will come out.  It was very dark, and I didn't have the
right type of film for this kind of thing."  (Email Form
Report)


PHANTOM PANTHER PROWLS
AYRSHIRE IN SCOTLAND

     "A farmer has painted zebra-style stripes on her
sheep to camoflauge them after rumours of a black panther
on the loose."
     "Charlotte Brayley, from Ayrshire, spray-painted her
flock through cardboard stencils after reading about the
recent sightings."
     "The 21-year-old, whose farm is just outside Dalry,
painted green, purple and red stripes on six of her
sheep."
     "She said: 'These cats prey on sheep, and there was
no way I was going to allow one of mine to fall victim.'"
     "Ms. Brayley, who studies fine art and sculpture at
Glasgow School of Art, said it only took 15 minutes to
paint each sheep."
     "She told the Daily Record newspaper; 'It doesn't
matter that the colours are bright.  It is the patterns
that are important because cats can see in black and
white.'"
     "'One night my mum was sure she spotted a huge black
tail disappear into a hedge.'"
     "Striped camoflauge, like that of a zebra, is
believed to confuse cats because the contrasting bold
stripes break up the shape of the intended prey."
     "More than 200 sightings of big cats have been
reported in Scotland this year."  (See the Daily Record of
Glasgow for December 8, 2003, "Sheep painted to deter
'panther.'"  Many thanks to Robert Fischer, UFO Roundup's
phantom panther expert, for this newspaper article.)


MOORS PANTHER SPOTTED
ALL AROUND HUDDERSFIELD

     "The bloody corpse of a lamb bearing weird
'signature' claw marks--and a glimpse of a lurking beast
in a field at dusk."
     "It sounds like the gripping stuff of a movie
trailer.  But this is no Hollywood thriller, it's a
worrying reality."
     "Big cat sightings in Huddersfield's rolling
countryside," near Manchester in UK, "has been a regular
feature of the Examiner's news pages for the past few
years."
     "Every so often, someone spots a powerful prowler--
usually described as a black panther, lynx or puma
(mountain lion or cougar in the USA--J.T.)."
     "And sheep and lambs fall prey."
     "Farmers who find the remains of their livestock just
can't put these strange attacks down to foxes and
badgers."
     "People are quick to play down such mystery sightings
and slaughters, dismissing them as nonsense or even
scaremongering."
     "But animal experts say a big cat on the loose is not
beyond the realms of possibility."
     "One witness who saw it try to pounce on bantam hens
said it had a head as big as a human's."
     "Others say they saw something prowling Skelmanthorpe
Cemetery, Scisset and High Hoyland."
     "Last month (November 2003) Hade Edge residents
alerted police to a large, swishy-tailed feline, bigger
than an Alsatian (dog), stalking sheep in a field off
Dunford Road."
     "Other people claimed to have spotted a big cat in
the same area--and just this week, a vicious attack on
sheep in Thurstonland was claimed to have the hallmarks of
a panther."  (For more on the Thurstonland attacks, see
UFO Roundup, volume 8, number 47 for December 10, 2003,
"Moors panther goes on a rampage near Oldham, UK," page
5.)
     "And there were some sightings near Dovestone,
Greenfield and Saddleworth, suggesting the beast was
moving west.  A Greenfield farmer described a beast with
orange eyes and said he thought he may have hit it with
gunshot."
     "John Atkinson, an RSPCA (Royal Society for the
Prevention of Cruelty to Animals--J.T.) inspector who has
patrolled Huddersfield for the past decade, said big cat
sightings had been a constant mystery since the mid-
1990s."
     "He said: 'A big cat on the loose is not beyond the
realm.  Non-indigenous species of animal can survive in
our own countryside.'"
     "Inspector Atkinson says: 'Big cats live for a long
time, and it's possible that, for example, if a pair were
released at the same time, they could breed.'"
     "'Lions have no problem breeding in the British
countryside, we know that.  And some big cats come from
North America where the climate isn't much different.'"
     "Sightings and tall stories are common from time to
time--but in terms of hard facts, the authorities have
little to go on.  For, in John's experience, no big cat
has ever been found locally."
     "He says: 'These stories have been going on for
years--always focusing on the Holmsfirth and Denby Dale
area--but no one has ever got to the bottom of it.'"
     "Robert Noble of the National Farmers' Union at
Honley is open-minded about the possibility--but believes
a big cat at large would create more carnage."
     "He says: 'Any such creature has to feed--and as far
as I'm aware, we've had no reports of sheep and lambs
being taken.'"
     "'You'd think there'd be more, but then, perhaps a
big cat could eat wildlife that we wouldn't necessarily
miss, rather than livestock.'"  (See the Huddersfield
Daily Examiner for December 11, 2003, "On the big cat
trail."  Again, many thanks to Robert Fischer for this
newspaper article.)


CHEMTRAILS SIGHTED IN
NORTH CAROLINA

     On Monday, December 8, 2003, at 9:53 a.m., eyewitness
Arthur Evangelista noticed chemtrails forming in the sky
over Weaverville, North Carolina (population 2,416), a
town six miles (10 kilometers) north of Asheville and 150
miles (250 kilometers) west of Winston-Salem, N.C.
     "The sky is clear, basically cloudless and the sun is
shining," Evangelista wrote in an email report.  "Looks
like there may be--and still are--several crisscrossing
trails, some being older than others."
     "While I was looking at these chemtrails, an
aircraft, most likely a jet aircraft, was flying in
between these trails at 25,000 to 30,000 feet (7,500 to
9,000 meters).  The aircraft was flying from northest to
southwest, towards Atlanta (Georgia).  It was quiet, due
to its distance, and it was not leaving any trail, not
even a vapor trail (condensation trail in the USA,
contrail for short--J.T.)."
     "As a veteran, and as a moderate expert on aircraft,
I can tell you right now that these chemtrails are not the
same as vapor trails.  The chemtrails I was watching
looked fluffier--like air-blown powder--especially the way
it was billowing down from the original trail.  They are
unusual."  (Many thanks to Jim Hickman and Frances E.
Barwood for this news story.)


STRANGE NEW FOSSILS
FOUND IN ETHIOPIA

     "Scientists in Africa have unearthed the remains of
six new species of prehistoric mammals, including an
ancestor of elephants and a 5,000-pound rhinoceros-like
beast that roamed Ethiopia's highlands 27 million years
ago."
     "The discoveries offer new clues to the fate of
Africa's animals during the 'dark period' in the interval
between 32 million years ago and the time 8 million years
later when the prehistoric continent known as 'Afro-
Arabia' began to connect with Eurasia."
     "It was only after that contact that Africa developed
the spectacular mix of lions, hippos, hyenas, antelopes
and elands for which it is famous today.  All of these
animals evolved from Eurasian immigrants who crossed the
frontier when the continents joined."
     "Before that happened, Africa had evolved an array of
mammals all its own, among them rodents, primates and some
larger species, thought to include several elephant-like
animals and other plant-eaters.  Before the Ethiopian
discoveries, however, none was believed larger than a
modern-day Texas longhorn steer."
     "'Eight million years is a very long period not to
know anything about an entire continent,' said University
of Texas paleontologist John Kappelman, who led the
multinational team that has worked in Ethiopia's
northwestern Chilga region since 1997."
     "Kappelman said the team located fossils in about 70
sites spread over several square miles of farm country
about 6,600 feet (2,000 meters) above sea level."
     "Five of the new species are Proboscidea (animals
with trunks--J.T.), the report said.  These included three
species of Paleomastodon, 4-foot (1.3-meter) high, 1-ton
mammals with short trunks and tusks on the upper and lower
jaws."
     "'They probably seemed like weird-looking pigs,' said
University of Michigan paleontologist William Sanders,
another member of the team.  The Chilga discoveries are
the most recent paleomastodons ever found.  The animals
apparently went extinct in Africa and never crossed to
Europe."
     "The team also discovered remains of a new species of
Deinotherium, another short-trunked animal with down-
turned tusks on its lower jaw."
     "The Chilga fossil--the oldest deinothere ever found-
-was 'about halfway between a large pig and a small hippo'
in size, Sanders said."
     "Deinotheres migrated to Eurasia, dispersed widely
and evolved to elephant-size before dying out 1 million
years ago, he said."  (At the beginning of the Pleistocene
Period, better known as the Ice Ages--J.T.)
     "Chilga's fifth trunked animal was the earliest known
species of Gomphotherium, a 1-ton ancestor of modern
elephants, which migrated to Eurasia and spread everywhere
on Earth except Australia and Antarctica."
     "And finally the excavators also discovered the
largest and latest example of Arsinoitherium, a fearsome-
looking beast with two divergent horns in its forehead.
Before the Chilga discoveries, scientists speculated that
the arsinoitheres lost a battle for habitat with the
later-arriving Eurasian rhino, with which it shares a
resemblance--but no relation."
     "While earlier arsinoitheres were pig-sized, like the
rhino invaders, the Chilga animal stood 7 feet (2.2
meters) tall at the shoulder and weighed 5,000 pounds.
"They were the size of very small elephants, and we found
a lot of them,' Sanders said, 'Rhinos weren't competing.'"
     "Taken together, the Chilga excavations offered the
clearest proof yet that while most modern African mammals
derived from European invaders, at least one dominant
type--elephants--moved in the other direction."
     "'We suspected elephants had originated in Africa,'
Sanders said, 'This is the proof.'"  (See the Duluth,
Minn. News-Tribune for December 7, 2003, "Prehistoric
mammal remains found in Africa," page 17A.)


MARSUPIAL FOSSILS FOUND
IN CHINA

     "The 125-million-year-old fossil remains of the
oldest known marsupial mammals, alive in the age of
dinosaurs, have turned up in China."
     "The Sinodelphys marsupial, whose fossils are
reported in Science, was only 6 inches (15 centimeters)
long, lived in trees and ate insects and worms, according
to a research team led by" Dr. Luo Zhexi of the Carnegie
Museum of Natural History in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
     "Skeletal and dental characteristics from the fossils
mark Sinodelphys.  The find pushes back the age of the
split between marsupial and placental mammals."  (See USA
Today for December 15, 2003, "Ancient marsupial fossil
turns up in China," page 6D.)


>From the UFO Files...

1907: LUMINOUS ANGEL HAIR
          FALLS IN NORFOLK, UK

     Falls of "angel hair"--fine strands of an unknown
gossamer-like material--are unusual Fortean phenomena
commonly associated with UFOs.  Classic examples are the
incidents in Italy in 1954 and at Quirindi, near Tamworth,
New South Wales, Australia a few years ago.
     About the strangest "angel hair" incident on record
is the fall of luminous or glowing strands in Norfolk, UK
in December 1907.
     One of the witnesses, a local fisherman, wrote to T.
Digby Piggott, describing the incident.  "On December 12
(1907), several of us fishermen were standing on Wells-bar
between 2 o'clock and 6 (a.m.).  It was a very dark
morning.  About 4 (a.m.) we were all surprised to find
something blowing about just like blue fire."
     "Our mittens and the edges of our sou'westers were
soon full; it hung to them like cobwebs, and some parts of
it were very bright.  I thought you would like to know
about this, as it would be about the same time the
luminous owl was seen" in Norwich "and I do not see why it
(angel hair--J.T.) should not hang on a bird's feathers as
well as it did on us.  There were about ten of us, so I do
not think we were deceived in what we saw."  (See Fortean
Studies - Volume 1 for 1994, "The Luminous Owls of
Norfolk" by David W. Clarke, page 55.  Also The Times for
December 26, 1907.)

     Well, that's it for this week.  Join us in seven days
for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you next time.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2003 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup
on their Web sites or in news groups provided that they credit
the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue
in which the item first appeared.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 17

                  Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 17:19:03 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:01:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Shough


>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:05:51 -0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>>From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:03:50 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>>>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:07:13 -0000
>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>>>An obvious emergency, for a naval vessel, would be the
>>>appearance of an unidentified and possibly hostile aircraft. Yet,
>>>when this happens the men on the deck of the Almirante Saldanha
>>>just panic (if we believe Barauna). This is not a trivial matter;
>>>it must be clarified if we are to take the story seriously.

>>Since the detailed disposition of the men on deck does not seem
>>to be known, might the men have been 'frantically running'
>>*towards* their various stations as a result of what you
>>describe as an emergency? In the circumstances - a first real-
>>life defensive alert for young recruits - it wouldn't be
>>surprising if this deployment were just a bit chaotic, would it?
>>The more so if there were indeed a 'flying saucer' swooping
>>past!

>>Good point about the tripod, though.

>If this business about the apparent disorder on deck when the
>UFO was sighted were the only peculiar detail, then perhaps it
>wouldn't tend to make the sighting seem doubtful. But there are
>a number of other difficulties with the story, most of which
>have been steadfastly ignored, or brushed aside as unimportant,
>by the believers.

>For instance, if the film which was said to have the UFO images
>on it was so important, why was it developed under conditions
>which could easily have ruined it, as I have alreadey asked?
>Also, why were many crew members allegedly allowed to examine
>it, even before it had dried? Surely no serious photographer
>would allow this. More seriously, if the film was considered so
>important, why was Barauna allowed to take it to his private
>laboratory before it could be examined by Navy photographic
>experts?

Hi John

The issue of the disorder on deck may be insignificant now, but
in your last post it was "not a trivial matter [and] must be
clarified if we are to take the story seriously". If I knew
enough about the case it may be that I'd find your other
questions answerable too; I don't know. But I think one of the
healthy lessons that sceptical investigators have taught us is
that events in real life are often a bit of a dog's breakfast
and people don't always behave just as coolly and reasonably as
one would wish - even when they're only looking at Venus. You
might counter that extraordinary claims require extraordinarily
consistent evidence. But would extraordinary consistency be a
sign of verity, or a sign of deception?

It would be an interesting exercise to take a blind sampling of
"true" stories from some section of the media and test them to
destruction for perfect psychological plausibility. I imagine
we'd find quite a lot of eyebrow-raising circumstances, unlikely
coincidences and implausible behaviour. (It would be mischievous
of me to suggest taking this sample from the pages of Fortean
Times!)


Martin Shough








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 17

                     Re: Alien Abductee Stress - Hebert

From: A. Hebert <vanguard@preciousmemories1.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:36:59
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:04:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Abductee Stress  - Hebert


>From: Dave Morton Marspyrs@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:09:49 EST
>Subject: Re: Alien Abductee Stress

>In the final analysis, scoop marks and implants, along with
>unshakable, consistent testimony, always trumps psychiatric
>evaluations. It takes only a handful of such cases to prove the
>abduction phenomenon exists.

As long as abduction research is conducted along the same,
stereotypical expectations, the evidence needed will remain
beyond our reach, lumped into dozens of unrelated categories by
not just scientists, 'skeptics' and debunkers but also those
involved in abduction research themselves. It's not the
phenomenon that's vague and elusive, it's the techniques used to
gather evidence that keep abduction research from producing
reliable scientific data.

Furthermore, current research techniques employed in abduction
research are not only archaic but also biased by belief systems
and perceptions common not only in the general public but also
among abduction researchers. If you set out to prove any
phenomenon exists, you are already biased in first believing it
is a phenomenon and second by believing something has to be
proven to others. Something is going on, this much is certain,
but exactly what needs to be determined. Even the term used to
refer to these claims/events indicates bias from the beginning.
New terms and research strategies are imperative if we are to
come even close to the truth. Above all, we must first change
our perceptions about what we are studying and avoid bias at all
costs.

Ever notice that the abduction 'phenomenon' itself (or any
phenomenon) seems to determine exactly what we know and don't
know? It almost seems to regulate what is learned and what is
ignored by researchers as well as those directly involved.


A. Hebert








                         The UFO UpDates Archive
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 17

                  Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:16:38 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:28:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Harney



>From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 08:57:04 -0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>The issue of the disorder on deck may be insignificant now, but
>in your last post it was "not a trivial matter [and] must be
>clarified if we are to take the story seriously". If I knew
>enough about the case it may be that I'd find your other
>questions answerable too; I don't know. But I think one of the
>healthy lessons that sceptical investigators have taught us is
>that events in real life are often a bit of a dog's breakfast
>and people don't always behave just as coolly and reasonably as
>one would wish - even when they're only looking at Venus. You
>might counter that extraordinary claims require extraordinarily
>consistent evidence. But would extraordinary consistency be a
>sign of verity, or a sign of deception?

The main problem with this case is that nearly all the details
published, in the press, and even in official documents, seem to
have come directly, or indirectly from Almiro Barauna, and some
of the statements made by Barauna, or in official documents, are
contradictory. None of the Brazilian ufologists who investigated
the case seem to have found this a problem to be resolved; they
simply picked out the details which seemed to indicate a genuine
and sensational sighting and ignored the awkward bits.

>It would be an interesting exercise to take a blind sampling of
>"true" stories from some section of the media and test them to
>destruction for perfect psychological plausibility. I imagine
>we'd find quite a lot of eyebrow-raising circumstances, unlikely
>coincidences and implausible behaviour. (It would be mischievous
>of me to suggest taking this sample from the pages of Fortean
>Times!)

It would also be necessary to discover whether these stories
were true or false, or partly true. For important press reports
it usually possible for someone to check the facts by looking
for physical evidence, documentation or independent witnesses.
Newspaper stories can often be very misleading, even when they
do not contain any actual untruths. The editors of Fortean Times
do not claim that all the stories they publish are true,





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                     Re: Bill Moore Sells Off? - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:26:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:44:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Bill Moore Sells Off? - Speiser


>From: Murray Bott <murrayb@win.co.nz>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 00:51:29 +1300
>Subject: Re: Bill Moore Sells Off?

>>From: Grant Cameron <presidentialufo@presidency.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 23:46:54 -0500
>>Subject: Bill Moore Sells Off?

<snip>

>It was also Bill Moore that distributed one other document
>associated with the "MJ-12 affair" later discovered as "not and
>original" document. Bill Moore later acknowledged that this
>separate document was a "cut and paste and retype" edition he
>had himself done and he has so far not ever given out an
>"original" edition to anyone.

Is this the "Aquarius" document?


==JJS==








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                         Re: 1929 UFO Photo? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 13:29:48 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:47:42 -0500
Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo? - Hatch


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:45:02 -0500
>Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo?

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 00:24:53 -0800
>>Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo?

>>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 09:59:24 -0600
>>>Subject: 1929 UFO Photo?

>>>I recently came across an interesting photograph of a UFO that
>>>is said to have been taken in 1929. The photo is at this URL:

>>>http://www.ufoevidence.org/Photographs/Photo121.htm

>>>If genuine, it was taken 18 years before Arnold's sighting of
>>>craft shaped like "pie plates" in 1947. The potential
>>>significance of this is obvious.

>>>Does anyone on the list know anything about this photograph or
>>>has anyone physically examined it personally or interviewed its
>>>owner?

<snip>

>In short, even in the absence of a negative to examine for
>photographic content or for emulsion damage, I think it
>realistic to feel that there is a lot of damage to the negative
>from which this photo was made and/or to the surface of this
>photo, itself. In absence of a negative and considering the
>abundant probable 'noise' in this image, it is likely of no
>scientific value in determining the presence of an anomalous
>phenomenon or phenomena in the sky at the time the photo was
>taken, and the actions of the persons shown in the photo seem to
>contradict the alleged photographer's report.

>I suspect we could be looking at damage to the photographic
>emulsion or photo surface damage, or even, conceivably, damage
>or debris on a window (of a vehicle?) through which the photo
>might have been taken, with the story added after the fact. I
>suppose the person who allegedly was about six years of age when
>the photo was taken might just have misremembered something told
>(perhaps in jest?) or imagined (as a young child) something of a
>story to explain the photo's content. Whatever accounts for the
>photo - UFO or photo fluke - I doubt this kind of 'trail-gone-
>cold' case (especially in absence of a first-generation
>photographic negative) will gain us any UFOlogical 'mileage' or
>credibility with mainstream science, even if it is fun to
>examine such things and imagine what might or might not be
>recorded there.



Thanks Ray:

That's the sort of input a non-photo-expert would want. The
devil is in the details. I did a little Google search and found
a few sites with exactly the same presentation, just like the
link above, all presented as is, i.e. uncritically.  Nowhere do
I see an obviously original source, one that might lead back to
"Hetty Pline".

The link to the 'original source' only takes you back to the
main page at the same ufoevidence site!  That's a bit like an
important footnote which refers you to the cover of the same
book containing it.

Without further confirmation or leads, say an email address for
Hetty Pline, it looks like a story that took on a life of its
own.


Best

- Larry








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              Opinions Concerning Sci-Fi's Rendlesham Special?

From: William Wise <w.wise@mac.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 17:12:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:57:17 -0500
Subject: Opinions Concerning Sci-Fi's Rendlesham Special?


I've been waiting patiently for someone connected with, and
knowledgeable of, the Bentwaters/Rendlesham investigation to
post their thoughts about Sci-Fi's "Invasion at Redlesham"
special. Since no one has commented on it yet (I know the
Holiday's are busy for everyone) I thought I might post to the
list and solicit comments directly.

To me (an admitted UFO UpDates List-lurker and UFO phenomena
neophyte) the special seemed to do a reasonably good job of
presenting the case as best I've been able to piece it together
from this List's archives and other (hopefully respectable)
Internet sites and video footage devoted to the case. Here are
some of my observations to get those more knowledgeable started:

a) The introduction of Monroe Nevels' testimony appears a novel
and valuable addition to the body of knowledge about the case.
In particular, his comments that his geiger counter readings
increased near damage (burn) marks on trees facing the landing
site is interesting as is his confirmation of the symmetry of
the alleged landing site depressions. Is this new information
for the record?

b) The location of the "second" landing site has been mentioned
elsewhere, possibly on this List, but was presented as new
information to come out during filming. I have no reason to
doubt this and assume the information filtered to the List (or
wherever else I got it) from someone involved with the Sci-Fi
investigation. What confuses me a bit is that Halt and Nevels
were at the alleged landing site that night taking readings
while the tape was being recorded but when Halt and Penniston
can't agree on where the landing site is located (which led to
the two site conclusion) Halt indicates the location where he
"was taken to and where [he] was shown the three indentations".
Does this mean that on the night Halt first forayed into the
woods he thought he was being taken to the first alleged landing
site, or is he referring to being led back to the landing site
during a follow-up trip to the woods sometime later? Who led him
there?

c) Nothing seemed to come from Sci-Fi's attempts to take new
radiation readings at the site. Is this because the original
trees in this area were later cut down? It appears that readings
were only taken at the "Halt" landing site. My best guess as to
why the guy with the geiger counter didn't go on to the
Penniston site is that he had to lug that honking suitcase that
looked way too heavy and bulky to be dragged for a prolonged
stroll around the woods. :-) Did he bail after the readings were
taken near (within 100 yards) because there was as yet no
certainty as to where the Penniston site was located or because
he had already fulfilled his contractual obligation to take
readings at only one specified landing site? This is all just my
speculation but if anyone knows why readings weren't taken at
Penniston's site I'd like to know why.

d) From what I recall there was no mention of there being a
landward shield on the nearby Orfordness (sp?) lighthouse
preventing it from producing the kind of light that might
penetrate deep into a forested area. This seems like an
important thing to point out. Perhaps training a camera on the
lighthouse from within the woods near the two landing sites
would have been a good idea? Wouldn't this give us some idea of
whether or not the lighthouse can be implicated as part of a
conventional explanation for the incident or have things changed
so drastically re: the landscape over the intervening years that
this would not be useful? (I have serious doubts that even on
an adrenalin "high" you could report the things Halt et al did
based on even a full beam from the lighthouse sweeping over the
woods, much less one partially obscured by a landward shield...)

I'm sure there's more worth mentioning. Anyone else care to
comment?


Will










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   Dec > Dec 17

                    [aufon] 12-03 Wisconsin UFO sightings

From: UFO Wisconsin <thestaff@ufowisconsin.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:00:20 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:01:38 -0500
Subject: [aufon] 12-03 Wisconsin UFO sightings


The latest UFO sighting reports from Wisconsin:


Date: December 11, 2003 5:15AM
Location: Abbotsford
County: Clark

http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports2003/r2003_1211_clark.html


*****

Date: December 5, 2003 17:39
Location: Milwaukee
County: Milwaukee

http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports2003/r2003_1205_milwaukee.html

*****

Date: December 5, 2003 5:30-6:30PM
Location: New Glarus
County: Green

http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports2003/r2003_1205_green.html

*****

Date: December 3, 2003 6:50AM
Location: Neenah
County: Outagamie

http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports2003/r2003_1203_outagamie.html

*****

Date: December 1, 2003 18:20
Location: Milwaukee
County: Milwaukee
http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports2003/r2003_1201_milwaukee.html

*****

Date: December 1, 2003 18:20
Location: Milwaukee
County: Milwaukee

http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports2003/r2003_1201b_milwaukee.html

*****

Date: December 1, 2003 19:30
Location: Stevens Point
County: Portage

http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports2003/r2003_1201_portage.html










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   Dec > Dec 17

                    CI: Close-up of D&M Pyramid Released

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:39:57 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:06:23 -0500
Subject: CI: Close-up of D&M Pyramid Released



Cydonian Imperative
12-17-03

Close-up of D&M Pyramid Released


See: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 44)

Malin Space Science Systems, acting upon a request by researcher
Bob Harrison, has released the closest view yet of the D&M
Pyramid. The image shows detail not visible in the previously
released mosaic. As expected, the D&M reveals signs of heavy
erosion.

Refer to Harrison's website for forthcoming enhancement and
commentary.

[image]

The Mars Global Surveyor's previous image of the D&M.

[image]

The central square-shaped formation visible here can be made out
on the new, greatly enlarged image.

-end-








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   Dec > Dec 18

              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Franz

From: Cap. Alejandro Franz <alfafox@prodigy.net.mx>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 05:45:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:24:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Franz


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:21:46 -0500
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: Captain Alejandro Franz <alfafox@Prodigy.net.mx>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:41:33 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>I can provide some information about this case, another one of
>>many J. Maussan hoaxes. The Aeromexico DC9 flight 129 from
>>Guadalajara to Mexico's City Intl. Airport that supposedly had a
>>collision with a UFO when approaching runway 05 right at
>>Mexico's Intl. Airport on july 1994.

>>I know personally the "eyewitness" Enrique Kolbeck, an Air
>>Traffic Controller, very close to Jaime Maussan because he is
>>the one who always has been invited to join the "team" of
>>"eyewitnesses" at all UFO conventions that Maussan has organized
>>since 1997.

>  <snip>

>Hola Capt. Franz,

Hola John, nice to hear from you again.

I want you to know that my wife and I had a close encounter in
1974 on a night car trip and both of us saw aliens and 5 to 6
hours of time are missing. I want to clarify this before you get
the wrong picture of me regarding my intentions about the work I
have done about multiple hoaxes related to J. Maussan. I can't
keep quiet anymore and I know what will come ahead,  my truth is
before those who use the UFO arena to make money and circus
denigrating the tedious and hard work of many honest and serious
investigators.

>I am not an 'expert'. Therefore I will not argue or debate point
>by point the many issues you have raised in regard to this
>alleged collision case.

No need to be an 'expert', if somebody tells you that there was
a midair collision between a commercial airplane and a UFO just
using your common sense you'll find out that there are some
important missing parts concerning this _exceptional case_.

I'll make some observations about this 'collision case'.

a) Who is or was the other pilot?
b) What is his name?
c) Where are the related airplane logbook documents?
d) Where are the laboratory results of damaged parts?
e) Where are the Control Tower tape recordings?
f) Where are the names of NASA personnel Maussan
    mentioned?
g) Where are the names from the rest of the crew members?
h) Where are the names of the rest of the aside Controllers?

I can keep going on and on till the end of the alphabet....

>What it all boils down to is this; you
>are saying (in essence) that Enrique Kolbeck, and Capt. Ruano,
>who are the principles reporting this incident in conjunction
>with Jaime Maussan, are lying. That there is no 'collision case'
>as such.

That's exactly what I mean, it is another of Maussan's hoaxes
and I have the firm determination to proof what I say.

Enrique Kolbeck was NOT the controller in charge in the Control
Tower at the moment of the incident. He was and is a _Radar
Route Controller_. This means that the indicated to be the real
'eyewitness' is the Control Tower Controller and also the aside
Controller that work together inside the always busy Mexico's
Intl. Control Tower.

>That's pretty strong stuff. I hope you can prove your
>contentions.

I have some key eyewitnesses. I mean one pilot who was inside
the cockpit the day of the incident and another pilot who was
flying 3 minutes behind the flight of Cap. Ruano he heard
'everything' and saw the airplane when both reached the parking
gates. Cap. Ruano gate #8 the other pilot gate #9 who got down
the airplane and saw the landing gear of the airplane XA-AMC
Capt. Ruano's flight 129 with a very simple hydraulic lick.

>I have a tendency to believe the testimony of the
>pilot and the ground support person who both say that it _did_
>happen. You expressed yourself eloquently in English in your
>initial post. I wonder if wouldn't be too much to ask if you can
>translate and publish here to the List, the contents of the
>webpage that you referred me to. I do not have the time to
>translate it myself.

My pleasure, I don't have to much time as I am working very
often. I did the page translation last night and added some
changes and new information to the web page.

I hope that'll help all the interested members. BTW, I have more
investigated hoaxes and hope to translate them very soon.

The translated page that I hope all of you like it is located at:

http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/OVNI94/OVNI94_engx.html

>We all need to hear both sides of this argument. I'd also like
>to ask you if you were there (working at the control tower) when
>the alleged collision took place?

No John I wasn't there. I never said so. I was flying maybe.

>One other point, you said that it would have been impossible to
>detect the OVNI as a separate object on radar if Ruano's plane
>had been directly over it at the time Kolbeck warned him about
>it.

Kolbeck didn't warn him, that is a lie, he was not in the
Control Tower, he works far away in another building and
provides Radar Route service to route traffic that has nothing
to do with VFR traffic near the airport or Control Zone (10NM).

Kolbeck searched for Ruano when he knew about the landing gear
incident. They reached J. Maussan and elaborated all the theater
(hoax) and made a video without any documented material but full
of lies.

>Doesn't it make more sense that the DC9 and the OVNI would have
>appeared as separate and distinct blips because Kolbeck was
>_fore-warning_ Capt. Ruano. Which means that the warning would -
>by definition- have been issued _prior_ to the DC9 having
>reached the position of the UFO/OVNI. Ergo, Kolbeck would have
>seen _two_ distinct blips.

Kolbeck didn't see anything, he was not in the Control Tower.
Anyway, there is no way a Radar Controller can know the vertical
position of an unknown object (target) if it doesn't have a special
equipment on board named TRANSPONDER. You can see more
in the web page I translated for all of you and I hope that will help

to clarify this _case_.

I did also a short video clip in 'rm' Real Audio format were you
may see and hear Enrique Kolbeck's false testimony.

http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/OVNI94/disclosure1.rm

>According to the facts of the case he
>would have had to see two separate blips in order to be able to
>_warn_ Ruano of the impending collision.

There was no warning, all my witnesses told me there was no UFO
information that night in the air frequencies, at least during
the time they took off from Guadalajara till landed at Mexico's
Intl.

>If you can please translate your material and post it here, it
>would be most helpful to those considering the merits of the
>case. Thank you in advance for your time and co-operation.

Any time John, the page is alredy in the 'air':

http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/OVNI94/OVNI94_engx.html

>At some point I would like to invite Enrique Kolbeck and Capt.
>Ruano to address the points you are raising. If not here on this
>List, on-air on Strange Days... Indeed.

That would be a great idea! Here...there... or anywere.

I know you are in contact with J. Maussan, Santiago Yturria,
Daniel Mu=F1oz, Enrique Kolbeck, etc. if you please invite them
because I don't have their addresses.

>Thank you,
>John Velez

Best regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz

PD. I am in my off-duty days I work 12 days and rest 8. The next
saturday I will start working and so on. Please try to
understand sometimes I will not answer very quicklyn. I travel
with my laptop but sometimes the internet at some hotels is
infamous and too slow. CU.








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   Dec > Dec 18

                      Re: Alien Abductee Stress - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:45:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:28:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Abductee Stress - Shell


>From: Amy Hebert <vanguard@preciousmemories1.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:36:59
>Subject: Re: Alien Abductee Stress

>Ever notice that the abduction 'phenomenon' itself (or any
phenomenon) seems to determine exactly what we know and don't
know? It almost seems to regulate what is learned and what is
ignored by researchers as well as those directly involved.

Now you're getting into Vallee's territory. When he conducted
some of the first computer analyses of UFO/anomalous phenomena
data, he was most struck by the way the charts seemed to match
an "instruction curve." That is, there's an optimum way to teach
an animal (or human) something new that involves punctuated
stimulation over time. You introduce something novel, allow the
animal to become familiar with it, then you introduce something
new, and so on, until the animal is doing something very
complicated. Stair-stepping.

This also explains why UFOs (and abduction procedures) generally
only seem to be ahead of us technologically by a few decades,
rather than, say, 150,000 years. Think about it. If you assume
the aliens are far more advanced than us, then why for instance
are the abduction procedures often so crude? "Scoop marks?" What
for, when you can get perfectly good tissue samples from
swabbing the inside of someone's cheek? Implants? Why, when you
could bio-engineer a tapeworm or some similar common parasite to
do the same thing?

To try to explain this, Vallee hypothesized that there's an
"invisible college," possibly "alien," but not necessarily
extraterrestrial, slowly teaching and guiding humanity forward,
technologically as well as psycho-socially. The notion wasn't
very popular among the nuts-and-bolts UFO researchers, which is
one of the reasons Vallee got out of the field.

Personally, I don't totally go along with Vallee, because I
think it's easier to teach people things when you're clear about
it and provide them with obvious recognizable rewards. People
will motivate themselves quicker than you can motivate them in
secret as long as they have the right reward.

Still, could there be some other similar mechanism involved?
Maybe something self-generated and not alien, more along the
lines of a Jungian collective subconscious (or super-conscious)
network that kind of drags us along into the future by our own
bootstraps? I don't know. How might someone design a scientific
test for such a thing?

But even Budd Hopkins - though he's still pretty entrenched in
alien cross-breeding conspiracies - in his latest book, seems to
be nudging along toward that idea because you eventually have to
somehow account for the odd, weird, "damned" data that doesn't
fall within the parameters of your hypothesis.









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                          NASA's Integrity In Data

From: Francis C. P. Knize <Frankknee@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 10:25:12 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:33:22 -0500
Subject: NASA's Integrity In Data


To Lan Fleming

Dear Lan,

In response to your postthat expresses your reservations that a
DQA inquiry would ever be useful in shedding light on
discrepancies concerning NASA's planetary image data, I would
like to offer some counterlogic. Citizens have the right at a
hearing to have some illumination as to the facts of an
argument. So let us explore the meaning of the words of NASA's
guidelines, in law; their plain and ordinary meaning, to examine
just how impenetrable the dissemination wall is. My comments are
inserted into brackets.


From NASA's Data Quality Act guidelines:

SECTION C.3. Information Not Covered by Guidelines These
guidelines do not apply to information not "disseminated."
"Dissemination" means Agency-initiated or Agency-sponsored
distribution of information to the public (see 5 CFR 1320.3(d)
"Conduct or Sponsor"). Dissemination does not include
distributions of information or other materials that are:

 - Intended for Government employees or Agency contractors or
grantees;

{Our tax dollars pay for this data and we have a right, through
discovery motions and legal production, to request them prior
and for an administrative hearing. Also the original DQA
quidelines state usefulness must be determined not only from the
standpoint of the agency but from that of the public.:}


 - Intended for U.S. Government agencies;

{privileged communication is what it is, and can be protected as
such, but it can be argued that since our tax dollars pay, we
are party to the information. Mostly this refers to memos and
communications and should not include materials like image data,
reports, study data, and briefs.}

 - Produced in responses to requests for Agency records under
the Freedom of Information Act, the Privacy Act, the Federal
Advisory Committee Act, or similar laws;

{Well, who needs this information when the FOIA already got it
through the action of other parties)

 - Correspondence or other communication limited to individuals
or to other persons as defined in Section H.1;

{The way privileged information status is defeated is through a
claim of criminal or fraud activity in most legal
jurisdictions.}

 - Communications such as press releases or press conferences,
interviews, speeches, fact sheets, or similar communications in
any medium that announce, support the announcement, or give
public notice of information that NASA has disseminated
elsewhere;

{No problem, however a motion for discovery is precisely
designed to request information that is unavailable by any other
means. If the plaintiff can prove he cannot access the
information any other way, the court referee could force
disclosure through an order.}

 - Communications by NASA-associated individuals working in
their private capacity, where the issuance or publication is not
represented as being an official position of the Agency or used
by the Agency in support of its official position.

{A legal question arises when NASA associated individuals are to
be considered operating within their official capacity?
 Obviously, NASA is an agency involved with credible science,
and shouldn't be releasing reports and analysis to the public
just for their viewing pleasure, or reporting to the media
without certain accountability for data having a scientific
value. They can't go captioning under publicly released space
probe frames that "this information was not intended for
scientific purposes and evaluation." NASA can't be saying of its
PDS archive that a scientist from the outside can't depend on
PDS (Planetary Data System) as being scientific enough. What's
the point of saying "you really can't use this data, it's not
good?" That's what NASA has been doing, and it's totally
ridiculous.}

The exemption for press releases and materials delivered to
Congress exists as long as facts backing up the original press
release or information have been previously disseminated.

Excluded from the definition of "disseminated information" are
archival records; public filings; responses to subpoenae or
compulsory document productions; or documents prepared and
released in the context of adjudicative processes. These
guidelines do not impose any additional requirements on agencies
during adjudicative proceedings and do not provide parties to
such adjudicative proceedings any additional rights of challenge
or appeal.

{This NASA legal information is available through other means
and is public record within the judicial system. The archival
information has a different status. If the archives are not
readily available I suspect they can be been requested. I would
also like to compare NASA guidelines with the original Office
for Management and Budget guidelines to see if NASA has diverted
from the character of the Data Quality Act}

These guidelines do not impose any additional requirements on
the Agency for rulemakings, adjudications, or other Agency
actions or information products where existing well-established
procedural safeguards that allow affected persons to contest
information quality on a timely basis exist.

{Really? We'll see about that. Of course, these rules are all
new and require NASA to make adjustments in time, so there most
certainly ARE added imposed requirements in rulemakings,
adjudications, or other Agency actions. One peep to the OMB that
NASA is diverting from the Act's directives would send the White
House to investigate whether NASA is following the new
protocols. NASA can't just stand there and say "...but we
already have "safeguards" within data collection and analysis,
we don't need DQA protocol.." basically thumbing their noses at
the Original OMB DQA requirements.

The whole point is to achieve better quality information and
this can't be done by any federal agency without bringing the
peer review process and evidence into DQA proceedings. If the
Act were truly to follow legal procedure as the American court
system follows, then it must allow for evidence to be presented,
legal discoveries and productions to be made, people and
material to be subpoenaed, on so on.}

In cases where the Agency disseminates information prior to the
final Agency action in rulemakings, adjudications, or other
Agency actions or information products, requests for correction
may be considered prior to the final Agency action in those
cases where the Agency has determined that an earlier response
would not unduly delay issuance of the final Agency action and
the complainant has shown a reasonable likelihood of suffering
actual harm from the Agency's dissemination if the Agency does
not resolve the complaint prior to the final Agency action.

END

Lan, there's nothing in C. 3 that will stop a genuine inquiry
based on released imagery which shows that information has lost
transparency, credibility, and integrity. There's also no
mention in these guidelines concerning the National Security
clauses which is very interesting.

NASA cannot refuse a citizen (or affected party) due process
according to the 14th Amendment of the Constitution. OMB wants
the federal agencies to abide by a DQA directive which includes
he Peer Review process to be extended to the hearing. What are
they saying within C4 below...that they already had peer review
and therefore don't need it again during a hearing? Well, during
a hearing new information arises and must be revisited by the
experts. It's that simple.

NASA:
SECTION C.4. Process for Ensuring NASA's Information Quality
NASA has policies and processes in place to ensure that
information produced and disseminated by the Agency meets a
basic level of quality-both for technical accuracy and for
clarity. Much of the information that NASA issues in the
Agency's name, uses to support policies, or utilizes to reach
mission decisions is subject to managerial, quality, and/or peer
review.

{And if data comes into question, we can naturally presume that
the process of peer review would continue during the course of a
hearing. Peer review is important throughout all aspects of
dissemination.}

Very truly yours,

Francis C. P. Knize
DQA Plaintiff
Producer

http://www.thecre.com/quality/landmarkguidelines.htm

Definitions

OMB has laid out parameters for key terms contained in the Data
Quality statute, including the following:

"Quality," "Objectivity," "Utility," and "Integrity"

OMB sees the above four terms as closely interrelated concepts
and defines them collectively such that information disseminated
under the guidelines must take into consideration the following
three elements:

(1) Information disseminated must be useful to all users,
including the public.

 - Usefulness must be determined not only from the standpoint of
the agency but from that of the public.

 - Relatedly, agencies must be mindful of the transparency of
their information.

(2) Information disseminated must be clear, accurate, and
complete.

 - This requirement may entail agency provision of additional
materials required to put the relevant agency information in
context.

 - In the statistical realm, agencies must demonstrate that
their information was obtained using sound statistical methods
and that error sources affecting data quality are identified and
disclosed to users.

(3) Information disseminated must be protected from unauthorized
access and revision to ensure that the information is not
compromised through falsification or corruption.

"Information"

OMB defines "information" as "any communication or
representation of knowledge such as facts, data, or opinions in
any medium or form, including textual, numerical, graphic,
cartographic, narrative, or audiovisual forms." The definition
includes information disseminated from agency websites.


"Government Information" OMB defines this term as "information
created, collected, processed, disseminated, or disposed of by
or for the Federal Government."


"Information Dissemination Product" OMB defines the term as "...
any book, paper, map, machine-readable material, audiovisual
production, or other documentary material, regardless of
physical form or characteristic, an agency disseminates to the
public. This definition includes any electronic document,
CD-ROM, or web page."











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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 18

                         Re: BBC Timewatch - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:15:19 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:35:34 -0500
Subject: Re: BBC Timewatch - Roberts


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:06:54 -0000
>Subject: Re: BBC Timewatch

Pilgrims,

Oh dear! Stuart wrote:

 >C'mon man, play the game. Don't judge before you've seen it. It
>might actually be very good - arf, arf. Doing an impression of a
>seal flapping it's flippers and begging for a fish appears to
>the new way, according to Roberts', of indicating laughter on
>this List.

Or from  Mork and Mindy depending on your cultural references
Stuart.

>Unfortunately, the moment one reads the word "culture" in
>Roberts' description of the programme's content, then it does
>become reasonable to make certain predictions about the fare we
>will be served.

Yes, Herman Goering ince said 'whenever I hear the word culture,
I release the safety catch on my pistol'. Perhaps you should do
the same if culture is alien to you?

>I don't know whether you've ever seen any of the British lot on
>television but I can tell you that Nick Pope is much better on
>the box than either Clarke or Roberts. Nick is suave, erudite,
>always very well presented and with the figure to carry it off.

God yes, I'm an ancient, bearded and balding Yorkshireman who
has slavishly ignored fashion since 1974. Nick, as you say is
well groomed. Presentation is an illusion which the 21st century
thrives on. It is not, however, an indication of content.

>There is no messing about when he is asked a question. His
>answers are direct, articulate, concise, and to the point.

Hardly. Nick's answers as usually evasive waffle based on the
research he's nicked from others, as we have proved.

>Clarke and Roberts, however, are a shuffling mess.
>One talks over the other,

Most interesting Stewart. As Dave and I have never - to the best
of my knowledge, appeared _together_ on screen I don't really
see how this could have happened. Unless, uh, unless you just
made it up! That would explain it.

>they come across as really grateful to be there
>cos they're on the telly!

Absolutely. It's fun, and you get paid.

>But have no fear Don. The BBC is like any other broadcast medium
>- back stabbing, duplicitous and hypocritical. Eventually they
>will tire of their current ufological playthings when the next
>"big thing" comes along and they'll be quickly, and
>unceremoniously, dumped, which in their case is an entirely
>appropriate adjective.

Well, 1986 to now is a pretty good run of TV appearances Stuart.
Every dog has its day!

>Just in case you think it's only on this List that they get up
>people's noses, then be advised that in the January edition of
>the British publication UFO Magazine there are seven letters on
>the letters page and two of them are dedicated to the ineptitude
>and incompetence of our beloved duo.

No-one is above criticism, especially when it's based on
ignorance and opinion. Two out of five ain't bad.

Would this be the same UFO Magazine which is always pleased to
receive, publish and pay for our excellent article? Or is it,
perhaps, the same UFO Magazine once run by Graham Birdsall who
told me via email that Dave and I would be Investigators of the
Year for 2003 (if he hadn't met an untimely demise). I guess it
is.

Hope this clear a few points up for y'all.


Happy Trails

Andy








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 18

                      Filer's Filer's Files #51 -- 2003

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:37:55 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:11:47 -0500
Subject: Filer's Filer's Files #51 -- 2003


Filer's Filer's Files #51 -- 2003 Skywatch Investigations.
George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
December 17, 2003, Webmaster: Chuck Warren --

My website is at: www.georgefiler.com/

One Hundred Years of Powered Flight

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. This week's files investigate One Hundred
Years of Powered Flight, Earth is Approaching Saturn, Microbes
Spread Throughout Galaxy, Earth Like Planets Common, Artificial
Structures on Mars, Pennsylvania - Two UFO's Moving In Clockwise
Pattern, West Virginia - Large Ball of White Light Falling
Slowly from Sky, Florida - Two Abductions Reported, Ohio - Huge
White Cigar Shaped Craft Hovered Above My Yard, Michigan -
 Flying Triangle Craft Seen Hovering Over Field, Illinois - Red
Light Darting Across The Sky, Tennessee - Flying Triangle With
Lights Hovering, Texas - Oval With A Red Light At The Bottom,
Nebraska - Large Dark Disk Seen In Daylight-Have Video Proof,
Arizona - Cigar and Elongated Sphere With Red/White Strobing
Lights, California - Saucer With Navy Blue Lights, Canada -
 Bright Cylinder Exploded And Crashed In The Water, Mexico -
 Space Craft, England - Orange Lights, Germany - UFO Daylight
Digital Camera, Saudi Arabia - White Hovering UFO, Image, Japan
- It Was Moving Slowly Around In The Sky, and New Zealand -
 Bright Lights.

One Hundred Years of Powered Flight

KITTY HAWK -- A hundred years ago today, on December 17, 1903,
Wilbur and Orville Wright with a few witnesses present, first
flew a powered aircraft some 120 feet on the North Carolina
shore. The Wright brothers built a balanced and controlled
glider based upon their observations of pigeons in flight. They
had studied the behavior of liquid gases as they move over solid
objects and surfaces. Essentially the curvature of the wing
causes air to move faster over the upper surface and produces
greater pressure underneath the wing creating lift. It took the
news media several years to report on the success of the first
flight. For the last hundred years all aircraft with the
possible exception of UFOs fly using this principle.

Some disc shaped aircraft may also use this principle of flight
with the air moving faster over the upper surface causing lift.
However, some disc shaped craft have been seen to hover and to
fly virtually straight up indicating they have the ability to
overcome gravity in some way. A series of interior helicopter
blades or fans may account for the lift at least in man-made
aircraft. Other discs appear to have some other means of
propulsion and lift.

Some key moments in flight that occurred during the last one
hundred years are: On September 14, 1939, Igor Sikorsky piloted
his first practical helicopter to a height of three feet. In
July 19, 1942, the Messerschmitt 262, the worlds first
operational jet fighter debuts. On August 22, 1963, the US Air
Force X-15 experimental aircraft sets an altitude record of
354,200 feet at a speed of 4,159 mph. The Space Shuttle Columbia
(STS-1) first test flight is launched on April 12, 1981. On July
30, 2002, the first successful test of a hypersonic scramjet
engine takes place in Australia. The engine could power aircraft
at speed up to Mach 8, or eight times the speed of sound. It is
logical to assume the US has an aircraft now flying with these
capabilities. On a regular basis South Korean observers
videotape a strange aircraft flying over heading towards North
Korea. UFOs were observed infrequently prior to 1947, since that
time hundreds are observed each month. This would infer that
with the development of jet and helicopter engines that a disc
could have been developed. Sightings of discs prior to 1940, are
unlikely to be man-made aircraft.

Fostoria, Ohio disc videotaped by George Ritter.

Earth Is Approaching Saturn - for our closest encounter with the
ringed planet in decades. The best time to look: when the clock
strikes midnight on New Year's Eve. This week, Mars has gotten a
little brighter because of a dust storm. Bright dust clouds on
Mars, reflecting sunlight more than the underlying terrain have
boosted the planet's total brightness by about 0.17 magnitudes.


Vegetation and Artificial Structures on Mars

An engineer Norman M. Bryden has sent me some extraordinary
images of possible extraterrestrial artifacts on Mars. Many of
these images show structures that appear as vegetation with root
like structures spreading out from them like banyan trees. We
know that water exists on Mars and that the seeds of life can
spread throughtour the universe. There is no satisfactory
natural explanation for these structures, unless we are looking
at some sort of growing molds or vegetation.

Microbes Spread Throughout Galaxy

Astronomers may have shown how microbes from Earth could be
spread throughout the galaxy taking life to other worlds.
Scientists at Armagh Observatory and Cardiff University say
bacteria could get into space on rocks blasted off the planet by
an asteroid or comet impact. Their calculations indicate the
microbes would eventually leak out of our Solar System to seed
other regions. The work is reported in two independent papers
published in the Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical
Society. The implication of the papers is that life could be
widespread throughout the galaxy and may not have originated on
our planet.

The research advances the case for modern-day panspermia -- the
controversial idea that life started elsewhere in space and came
to Earth when it was young. Dr Max Wallis and Professor Chandra
Wickramasinghe of Cardiff University calculate how debris from
Earth, thrown into space as a result of a giant impact, would
become incorporated in the frozen outer layers of comets.
Eventually, after hundreds of millions of years, some of these
comets would reach throughout the universe. Wherever it started,
life could have spread across the Milky Way on timescales that
are short compared with the 10-billion-year estimated age of our
galaxy. This means fossil microbes identified in Martian
meteorites life must be widespread throughout our star system
and that it is unlikely to have originated on Earth. By Dr David
Whitehouse BBC News Online science editor

Earth Like Planets Common

Thomas R. Quinn, a University of Washington associate astronomy
professor, and Jonathan Lunine, a professor of planetary science
and physics at the University of Arizona have written an article
for Icarus, the Journal of the American Astronomical Society
claiming that the planet-formation model indicates earthlike
planets might be common. New research suggests that one thing is
pretty certain - if an Earthlike world with significant water is
needed for advanced life to evolve, there could be many
candidates. In 44 computer simulations of planet formation near
a sun, astronomers found that each simulation produced one to
four Earthlike planets, including 11 so-called "habitable"
planets about the same distance from their stars as Earth is
from our sun. This study would indicate millions of Earth like
planets likely exist. Other studies indicate life can be
transported aboard meteorites. UWashington :
http://www.washington.edu/

Pennsylvania - Two UFO's Moving In Clockwise Pattern

PLYMOUTH - The witness sighted the first object moving in a
clockwise circular motion in and out of a dark cloudbank at
about 3000 feet altitude on December 7, 2003, at 3:55 PM. The
object was white in color and moving northeast. The witness went
outside to get a better look and spotted a second object that
was identical to the first, and moving in the same general
pattern. He watched for five minutes when both UFOs
simultaneously began to move in a northeast direction behind
another cloudbank and out of view. The local T V station
meteorologist verified the altitude of the cloudbank. The UFOs
were both the size of a dime held at arm's length. Thanks to
Peter Davenport UFOcenter

West Virginia - Large Ball of White Light Falling Slowly

WILLIAMSTOWN - The witness was driving a friend home at 1 AM,
after work on December 8, 2003, and states, "The sky was clear
and we noticed a bright ball of light coming almost straight
down toward the ground. It fell at a constant speed, very slowly
and moved in a straight path and it was a bright white ball of
light, with no tail at all. We saw it for three seconds until it
was obscured by some high trees. It looked about the size of my
pinkie fingernail at arm's length. It was only a 550 yards away
from us. We both saw that it was way too bright, and too large,
and moved way too slowly to be a shooting star. We though the
object landed, because it appeared to be nearing the ground
until it went out of view, but it may not have actually landed."
Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Florida - Two Abductions Reported

MILTON -- Two of the gals at the local convenience store were
telling me that they were abducted. To prove her point to me,
one of the ladies sent me an email of your report showing a
reported ten minute abduction of another women and her daughter
when going over the bridge just down the road on the I-10
Freeway. They told me that at 7:00 PM, they went outside to
collect the garbage bags from containers and then threw them
away in the dumpster. She said her usual customers had left and
they had time to do the 5 minute chore. When they came back in,
it was 9:00 PM, and that is the time they get ready to close the
store. Cosing time being 10 PM. They were animated about how
they lost two hours. Later, just a few days ago, one complained
that some fluid was draining out of one her ears, and the other
said she had the same problem. One of the ladies had previously
told me she went "shinen" one night with her husband (scouting
Deer habitats with lights), and a very large triangle flying
object with lights and no sound hovered above them and then left
going over the trees. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Ohio - Huge White Cigar Shaped Craft Above My Yard

N. RIDGEVILLE - On November 22, 2003, at 9 PM, a nurse was in
the kitchen making bread when she heard a helicopter very close
by outside. The observer states, "I went out to see why the
noise continued, and there hovering in my front yard not far off
the treetops was this absolutely massive cigar shaped light
colored "helicopter". It was hovering in an area close to my
pond. We live on 16 manicured acres and this thing was clearly
visible in the treeless part of my front yard. The thing did not
move even one inch in any direction. The loud whirring sound it
made was like a weird sounding helicopter. The lights in my
house flickered and my dogs were freaking out. Sometimes there
was almost no noise at all. It sat there for what I thought was
about ten minutes. Later noticed it was actually more like 40
minutes. I called my neighbor to see if she was seeing the same
thing and she said she did. I called the police, but they said
they had no other reports of helicopters. They said they'd send
over a patrolman to check it out, but I never saw any sign of
him. The thing eventually moved incredibly slowly towards my
neighbor's house. I could have walked way faster than it was
moving. I noticed that there seemed to be no downdraft and no
blades.

When it went over the neighbors backyard, it turned east and
moved off over my woods and eventually out of sight. There was
one round light coming from the bottom center. As it moved off
over the woods, it had three lights. One on each end and the
same center one. One of them was green, and the other two white.
I went back out to the area this morning and noticed nothing out
of order. It was clearly and obviously hanging over my yard not
far from my pond. Maybe the pilot was looking at the fish in
there? Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Michigan - Flying Triangle Craft Seen Hovering Over Field

STOCKBRIDGE AND WHITMORE LAKE -- On November 30, 2003, three
observers saw a light near her house in Stockbridge that would
brighten and fade away, then get brighter and then disappear,
with no clouds around it. After one passenger was dropped off
the two witnesses saw a strange object with pulsating lights
over a cow pasture. Each light would pulse three times as it
hovered over the car as they were driving, going almost the same
speed as we were. The eye witness states, "As it went over us, I
saw it had a humped shape on top and it was like a triangle with
a light on top and lights all around it. The object teeter-
tottered it's way slowly across the sky, rocking back and forth
like a plane would with it's wings when it "waves". It looked
like a worm wriggling it's way across the sky at 9 PM.
Throughout the 25 mile ride back, we saw lights in the six get
brighter and fade over and over again... when finally as one got
so bright and then it jetted across the sky faster than any
plane, and within 5 seconds was gone.

When we arrived back to Whitmore Lake, just over the lake was
this saucer shaped object with red lights all around it hovering
above the lake. When we pulled into the driveway.. the same
craft we saw over the field was right over my house... waiting
for us just above the trees. Shaped like a triangle with a large
blue light coming very slowly across he sky. I immediately
hopped out of the car to grab the video camera but it had
already disappeared. Ten minutes later, the lights appeared just
above the horizon. I started rolling film. My mother, two of her
friends, two strangers and I all saw what were anywhere from 2
to 6 crafts at a time appear and reappear and slowly moving in
the distance. They hovered in one spot over a period of an hour.
I got about a half hour of footage where you can see the moving
lights and pulsating lights that wiggled. Thanks to Peter
Davenport UFOcenter

Illinois - Red Light Darting Across The Sky, Oddly Spaced

DEKALB - The observer saw a round, bright red light that
resembled a reflector on a bicycle dart across the sky and fall
below the horizon at an undeniably super power speed on December
5, 2003, at 4:50 PM. He states, "This encounter took a couple of
seconds to occur and gave me ample time to study the object and
determine it most definitely was not an aircraft that is known
to the general public." The object took off from a standstill,
hover, and jet down as if propelled; not a falling or orbiting
object of any kind. After seeing the bright red light, I looked
into the sky and saw an alarming number of oddly placed lights
in the sky. It was early dusk and there were no stars out. Other
people in this area have been seeing things lately and everyone
here is talking about low flying planes. A lot more happened
during this sighting that took place over 45 minutes, we even
experienced slight time loss in that it took 55 minutes to drive
25 miles while we were driving at a constant rate of 60 mph.
Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Tennessee - Flying Triangle With Lights Hovering

KINGSTON -- On November 30, 2003, there was a triangle shaped
object with lights and no sound hovering over the trees on the
far side of the house at 6:55 PM. Two witnesses watched a flying
triangle glide directly over their house and fly off to the
east. The whole thing lasted about three minutes and then it was
gone. There was absolutely no noise. I don't know what it was,
but I know it wasn't an airplane, weather balloon, or anything
like that. Since we moved here a year and a half ago, we have
seen many strange things in the sky such as lights, objects,
etc. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

North Dakota - Bright Lights Came Towards Our Vehicle

BISMARCK - Two friends saw a bright figure from about four miles
away and decided to investigate on November 28, 2003, at 11:45
PM. They report, "When we began crossing the Grand Marsh Bridge
over the Missouri River, we saw a large object hovering over the
river with bright white lights completely around it and one
green light." The one green light made the object look almost
triangular in shape, but It could have been spherical. The top
of it was slightly rounded and the bottom was flat. My cellular
phone failed to function as we went further across the river.
The object started to come towards our vehicle and then the next
thing we knew, it was going in the opposite direction. The only
time it moved quite fast was when we began to follow it, other
than that, it moved quite slow and steady. We followed the
object for about two minutes afterwards and lost it over a hill
in Bismarck, North Dakota. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Nebraska - Large Dark Disk Seen In Daylight - Have Video

ASHLAND -- About 12:45 PM, on November 30, 2003, a married
couple saw the shocking and disturbing sight of a very large,
dark colored disk shaped object hovering in the sky south of
their home. The object seemed to move in all directions (swoop
from side to side and upside down) at times it looked as if it
were floating, then it would very quickly and smoothly fly
further south and then come back. The observers say, "At one
point the object seemed to be on it's side with the top facing
us while in that position a very bright white light came from
the object." After a couple minutes the object slowly moved
further up and further south, my husband ran in to get the
camcorder and shot 15 to 20 seconds of footage before the object
was blocked by trees and no longer in view. We have shown the
footage to several people all were shocked and believe what they
saw was a UFO. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Texas - Oval With A Red Light At The Bottom

SOUTHLAKE - The observer reports he saw and oval shaped object
with a red light on the bottom flying at an angle on December 3,
2003, at 6 PM. When he looked closely with binoculars it seemed
to have windows or something on the side. The object did not
look like a blimp or a helicopter and it was completely
illuminated unlike any airplane would be. It was also much more
round than an airplane and it moved really slowly. Thanks to
Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Montana - There Were Two Crafts Hovering For Several Hours.

WHITE SULPHUR SPRINGS -- On November 24, 2003, the husband went
out to bring in wood for the fire on a very cold day at 1 AM.
After a few minutes his wife was called outside to look and saw
two UFO`s flying above the adjoining property. It was a clear
night, and the craft had slits in the windows, blinking lights
and appeared like a veil of sorts was around them.

We live in a high valley with no trees a mile from the Castle
Mountains. The craft were between us and the mountains. They
just hovered there for several hours. It was very cold so we
could only stay outside for short periods but they were there
until about 4 AM. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Arizona - Cigar and Elongated Sphere With Red/White Strobing
Lights

SEDONA -- Around 6:30 PM, on December 2, 2003, the witness was
standing in the driveway and looked over toward Airport Mesa and
noticed a disc or spherical object covered with numerous red and
white strobing lights hovering silently 75 feet above the
treeline. It remained completely stationary in that position for
about three minutes and then slowly descended behind the mesa
and out of view. A few seconds later, it came out from behind
the mesa and drifted somewhat languidly toward the S/SW. Thanks
to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

SCOTTSDALE -- The object was first observed in the southern sky
at 11:15 PM, on December 4, 2003, it moved southeast where it
remained static for about two hours. The object emitted
brilliant white, blue, and red lights that flashed in sequence.
As an aerospace worker with more than 20 years experience in
fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters, I determined the object was
not conventional. It remained in a static position for two hours
and emitted no sound. As I had no optical devices, such as
binoculars, I could not confirm its true shape. I can confirm
that the lights observed with the naked eye were aligned
horizontally and appeared to flash or pulse in a left to right
sequence. My observations were confirmed by my teenage son who
also witnessed the event. I placed calls to the local airport
and television newsroom to inquire if there had been other
reports. There were none made. Thanks to Peter Davenport
UFOcenter

California - Saucer With Navy Blue Lights

AUBERRY - The observer writes, "My boyfriend and I were in two
separate cars traveling on Highway 168, when we both saw a UFO
at 11:53 PM, on November 30th, 2003." We were driving at 65 mph
about mile before the "Sierra National Forest" when we saw a
beautiful navy blue light and a saucer shaped "object" that came
from above the mountains. "It flew low, flying a couple feet
from the front of my car and a couple feet behind my boyfriend's
car," she stated. It came so close to my car that I thought we
were going to collide with each other. When we stopped at a gas
station in Madera, I asked my boyfriend if he had seen this blue
light, too? He insisted he had seen the UFO, but thought it was
a helicopter patrolling Auberry and Shaver Lake, flashing it's
lights so they could see all the cars. But, I didn't buy what my
boyfriend had to say because where we were driving it was
totally dark, and I didn't hear anything. I only saw this
extraordinary object. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Oregon -Wobbling Disc Daylight Sighting

PORTLAND - The witness was in the back of his house looking at
the sky and noticed an odd looking object on November 24, 2003,
at 4:10 PM. The object was wobbling slowly and moving slowly
north against the prevailing winds, which were blowing east. I
would estimate the altitude at 1500 to 2000 feet with the
sunlight reflecting from its western edge in the late afternoon.
It appeared to be a silver disc with a brown or dark colored
center. I would estimate the diameter of the object to be about
25 feet. I could not hear any sound from it. I ran in the house
and got my binoculars, which took about 30 seconds but it had
disappeared. If it had been some sort of balloon, it would have
still been in sight. There was a small private airplane
approaching the area where I had last seen the object. I had the
distinct feeling, at that point, that this had been an
intelligently controlled craft, that had seen the small plane
flying in it's direction, and had vacated the vicinity. Thanks
to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Canada - Bright Cylinder Exploded And Crashed In The Water.

NEW CARLISLE - The eyewitnesses were driving home when they saw
a cylinder shaped object in the sky that had a blue glow around
it. Suddenly it exploded. This was a tremendous explosion that
lit up the whole sky on November 22, 2003, at 7:30 PM. There
were huge blue flames as it crashed into the water about 1.5 km
off shore. As far away as we were you could see the water splash
from the impact. After that there were no flames like there
would be if a plane had crashed. I am 100% positive this was not
a plane nor a meteorite. Whatever this was it was 300 to 400
feet long, and about 250 feet wide. Honestly I have never seen
anything like this before in my life, and I was scared. This
object was going south. As soon as this happened we could see
two planes in the distance like they were investigating, also.

EDMONTON -- There was a bright light in the sky, as I put on my
glasses and saw some blue and red lights on top and bright
lights at the bottom. It just hovered up there and it moved
really fast. Too fast to be a plane and it finally flew behind
us. I looked back and the lights burned out and then it was
gone. It had a sound but not like a plane or man made aircraft.
Thanks to Peter Davenport

ORILLIA, ONTARIO -- on December 8, 2003, at 6:30 PM, the witness
was looking out the window when he noticed a really bright light
just above the tree line. It was ten times the brightest star
with a big band of black cloud emerging on it. The witness
grabbed his binoculars and parked in an open field were the
highways merge. The clouds were under it, but the light glare
was so immense, it lit up the clouds to an orange color. The
witness states, "I watched for about 15 minutes and saw it up
close, a disk, perfectly round, with a glowing white aura around
it, flying perfectly flat with no spin. It was beautiful and
when it crossed over me it was huge, it was the size of a dime
at arm's length. On October 4, 2003, my children 9,7,7 out on a
nature walk, pointed out to me, a cigar shaped UFO high in the
sky over Oro Medonte.

VERNON, BC -- On November 30, 2003, at 4:45 PM, the witness
spotted a bright white light that was moving toward the west and
descended into the trees on the hill directly south of Vernon
Airport. The bottom of the light "seemed" to turn orange red as
if it was shutting down, when just over the lake my eye caught
strobing lights moving too fast for a small plane about to land.
I saw an "orb ascend quickly" from the lake with pink strobing
lights that reminded me of the globes that appear when ghosts
are filmed. The sky was still in its final colors of sunset,
though the sun was long gone. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director
CANADA HBCC Research Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.

Mexico - Space Craft

CANCUN - It was just before sunset at 5 PM, on November 26,
2003, when an aircraft flying from northeast to southwest that
looked like a spacecraft entering the atmosphere. It was not an
airplane. It was leaving a fume trace that was a gold/reddish
burning. We lost it in the horizon. It was visible for at least
20 seconds.

UK/England - Orange Lights

HUNTS CROSS, LIVERPOOL -- It was approximately eleven in the
evening of on December 2, 2003, at 11 PM. When a friend went
outside and a man pointed out a row of three orange lights high
in the sky. Our friend came back in and told us so, we went
outside to see. As we looked up we saw a row of three orange
lights close together, followed by another three (two side by
side and one slightly behind). Then another three followed in a
triangle formation (two in front and one behind). The three in
front seemed to stop and wait, then the second three stopped
until the back three caught up. Then, they were obscured by the
clouds. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Germany - UFO Daylight Digital Camera Image

MUENSTER -- My brother in law in saw, and photographed, an
unidentifiable object in day light with his 3.3 mega pixel
digital at 1 PM, on December 6, 2003. Altitude undetermined, the
object "drifted slowly across the sky." Both of us zoomed,
cropped and enhanced it. I have never seen anything like this. I
am a licensed pilot, and aerial photographer. This is not a
balloon, and it is not something that would be capable of flight
as I know it. It's like a "miss-shaped balloon, with a black
hole pointing to the front and down, and a large "gouge" out of
it's side. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Saudi Arabia - White Hovering UFO

PERSIAN GULF - The observer and his 15-year-old son were
driving in the desert off road 40 km from Safaniah on December
12, 2003. We saw an airplane from one mile and my son said oh,
airplane. I said yes this is a Saudi Aramco airplane. They have
a few of them to shuttle their staff and also helicopters using
the same route on a daily basis. While we were driving, we saw a
hovering plane that did not move at 4:05 GMT. We came close to
it and it was maybe 300 meters altitude. So we stopped to see
it. I thought it was going to land or had a problem, so we came
to complete stop. The plane was still in the same place. I
thought it was a Harrier fighter plane (saw them during Gulf
war) but this one was white and so beautiful. The minute we
stopped, I asked my son to make a right turn towards it and this
thing started moving north. We both said oh it is moving now,
good, but moving at a high rate of speed. Maybe 10 seconds and
it was gone. It was a capsule in shape, and had no windows.

Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

Japan - It Was Moving Slowly Around In The Sky

YOKOHAMA -- The object was bright and we saw a yellow flash
before it disappeared on December 7, 2003, at 8:10 PM. It hurt
our eyes and when it flew away our eyes had bright spots as if
we had been staring at a light for a few minutes. There was a
yellow trail in the sky. We think that maybe some other people
may have seen it. Thanks to Peter Davenport UFOcenter

New Zealand - Bright Lights

NORTHLAND/MOEREWA BAY --This happened 9:45 PM, on December 5,
2003, there was a very super bright light that appeared in the
sky to the west of where we live and it got even brighter for
half an hour, just sitting in the one spot, then it got very
dim. Then, this massive light brightened up brighter than it had
appeared and just disappeared in a flash so fast. Thanks to
Peter Davenport

I NEED YOUR HELP

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Filer's Files is copyrighted 2003 by George A. Filer, all rights
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if they credit the Newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue. These reports and comments are not
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   Dec > Dec 18

                  Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:05:34 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:16:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Shough


>From: John Harney <magonia@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:16:38 -0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>>From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 08:57:04 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>The main problem with this case is that nearly all the details
>published, in the press, and even in official documents, seem to
>have come directly, or indirectly from Almiro Barauna, and some
>of the statements made by Barauna, or in official documents,are
>contradictory.

I believe I have read statements quoted on this List recently
purporting to come directly from an official Brazilian Navy
report, stating explicitly that members of the ship's crew
including named officers reported witnessing the object. This
was previously a point of contention. I have not seen this claim
contested again since. Are we now suggesting that Barauna
himself convinced the Navy of the truth of this, or that the
Navy uncritically quoted a claim of Barauna's without actually
asking those named officers whether or not it was true? Or ought
we to conclude that those named officers didn't exist and that
the Navy report quoted is itself fraudulent? I'd be interested
to hear what the Brazilian researchers can tell us about the
provenance of the Navy report and/or other sources not
ostensibly traceable to Barauna and about the status of those
named therein.

>>It would be an interesting exercise to take a blind sampling of
>>"true" stories from some section of the media and test them to
>>destruction for perfect psychological plausibility. I imagine
>>we'd find quite a lot of eyebrow-raising circumstances, unlikely
>>coincidences and implausible behaviour. (It would be mischievous
>>of me to suggest taking this sample from the pages of Fortean
>>Times!)

>It would also be necessary to discover whether these stories
>were true or false, or partly true. For important press reports
>it usually possible for someone to check the facts by looking
>for physical evidence, documentation or independent witnesses.
>Newspaper stories can often be very misleading, even when they
>do not contain any actual untruths. The editors of Fortean Times
>do not claim that all the stories they publish are true,
>although obviously some of them are.

Precisely my point. Even in Fortean Times, where I dare say it
would often be hard to find a story of human behaviour that
didn't make half its readers shake their heads and say "Well,
I'd never have believed it....!", even here - *some of these
stories are true*. Finding out which are true or false or partly
true is, as you imply, a question of investigation. Perfectly
consistent psychological plausibility is not a very reliable
predictor when it comes to betting on how people behave in odd
circumstances. Mostly I find myself thinking, "Why would
somebody do that!?" But they do.

In this case it seems to me that there are two main branch
points in the decision tree. The first is this basic question
about whether or not any other creditable persons can be agreed
to have reported this UFO apart from Barauna. See above.
Speaking as a spectator this doesn't seem to have been
decisively resolved yet.

If we can pass this branch point then the next one involves the
photoanalysis. Again this issue does not seem to me to have been
definitively resolved yet. Both sides claim the other is being
selective in their criticisms, and work appears to be still
going on. I look forward to hearing the next results. Obviously
if fraud is proven then the game's up; but if not *then* we
would finally wind up with having to weigh a plausible multiple-
witness photographic case against some storyological
inconsistencies.


Martin Shough








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                 Re: UFO Roundup Volume 8, Number 47 - Young

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:11:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:30:06 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Roundup Volume 8, Number 47 - Young


>From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:51:49 -0500
>Subject: UFO Roundup Volume 8, Number 47

>UFO ROUNDUP
>Volume 8, Number 47
>December 10, 2003
>Editor: Joseph Trainor

>KENTUCKY UFO SIGHTING
>MAY HAVE INCLUDED AN
>ABDUCTION

>Young wondered if the Morehead incident
>might be a similar case of an abductee being "returned."

I'm fairly certain that I have entertained no such concern... I
have reported on one previous case of a 'deathbed' abduction
testimony when I was contacted by a dying man several years ago
but I am not an abduction promoter, and am skeptical of most
abduction claims.

In the case of the Nov. 21, 2003 Morehead investigation, I have
sought to patiently report strictly 'facts only' and not infer
speculative offerings. Corresponding information, such as the
Flemingsburg crop formation and the 2-cases of women who
reportedly "woke up" in fields with amnesia without knowing who
they were or how they got there (one Ohio woman, one Kentucky
woman) was referenced in the report due to regional and
chronological proximity, similarity of circumstances, and
offered without comment. The reports I have posted on the
Morehead index page:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/moreheadindex.html

avoid theories and speculation.

If the data of this Morehead case, which appears to be quite
interesting, seems to be suggestive of something unusual I prefer
to let others draw the conclusions. Like Sergeant Friday said:
"Just the facts, ma'am,,," and let the chips fall where they may.


Many thanks,

Kenny Young








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                             Re: 1929 UFO Photo?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 14:21:59 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:44:20 -0500
Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo?


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:11:23 -0600
>Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo?

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 00:24:53 -0800
>>Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo?

>>I wonder if the fellow who submitted the old photo can be
>>reached.

>I did a little "googling" and found what appears to be the first
>source of the Ward Colorado photograph on the net:

>http://www.ufoartwork.com/

>The web site's owner, Matthew Hurley, is coming out with a book,
>"Alien Chronicles" that will be mostly about pre-1947 artwork
>purportedly showing UFOs. (That's a subject that's come up on
>this List several times in the past). However, Hurley has also
>been collecting old photographs. There's a link on his web page
>that starts a slide presentation of several of them, including
>the Ward photo (third one). Most of them seem more ambiguous
>and/or more likely to be photographic defects than the Ward
>photo.

>I think it would be extremely unlikely for the negative of a
>74-year old photograph to have survived, but like I said
>earlier, an examination of the print should establish whether
>it's as old as it appears to be and whether the object is a
>photographic defect or a hoax. Maybe Hurley will have some more
>information on it in his book.


Hello Lan, GT

I wonder if Matt Hurley can provide a link to Hetty Prine? That
would seem the best thing.

Anything Hetty can tell us would be helpful, one way or another.
Still, I don't see a "contact me" page or email link on the
Hurley site. One page says "Please email me if you any
information - thanks." .. but provides no email address I can
find.

http://www.ufoartwork.com/moreinfo.html

I find that a most curious omission. What I did find was the
"Order Now!" link for the "Alien Chronicles" book Hurley is
selling. That's on the left side of every page I visited. I see
no indication that Hurley got any closer to the Hetty Prine
source than anyone else.


Thanks

- Larry

= = = =







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                         Re: 1929 UFO Photo - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:38:20 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:46:37 -0500
Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo - Shell


Pline Family Search

If you go to the 1930 Census records for Klamath Co., Colorado,
at this site:

http://www.idreamof.com/census/or/klamath/malin_42.html

You'll find Edward J. Pline listed as a "Tree Faller" and a
$10/month renter.  He's 29, and his family, including his wife
and three children were apparently all from Missouri and lived
on Rosicky Street. No mention of a "Hetty."

His family:              Age
 Alpha M.   Wife     F W 28 Married 19
 Joseph E.  Son      M W 8  Single
 Doris M.   Daughter F W 5  Single
 Stanley J. Son      M W 1  Single

So that at least places an Edward Pline in a sawmill in
Colorado, 1929.

Next search... names of kids (some may still be alive), also
family in Missouri.







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   Dec > Dec 18

                     Airdrie Echo - Another UFO Sighting

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:44:57 -0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:04:39 -0500
Subject: Airdrie Echo - Another UFO Sighting


Source: Airdrie Echo, Canada

<http://webmail.terra.com.br/xwebmail/cgi-bin/vlink.exe?Link=3Dhttp%3A//www.=
airdrieecho.com/story.php%3Fid%3D84187>http://www.airdrieecho.com/story.php?=
id=3D<http://webmail.terra.com.br/xwebmail/cgi-bin/vlink.exe?Link=3Dhttp%3A/=
/www.airdrieecho.com/story.php%3Fid%3D84187>84187

December 17, 2003

Another UFO sighting

City man reports strange object during daylight hours

Paul Wells
Echo Editor

Airdrie Echo =97 There=92s something up there in them there skies.

But whether it=92s a bird, plane =96 or perhaps something not of
this earth =96 remains unknown.

British Columbia-based UFO researcher Brian Vike, who operates
HBCC UFO Research, said sighting reports from Airdrie and area
keep coming into his UFO hotline and e-mail.

"Since (last week=92s article in the Airdrie Echo), things started
to happen pretty quickly," Vike said, adding recent articles
seemed to have encouraged others to step forward with their
experiences, both recent and in the past.

"The latest report was once again very interesting."

According to Vike, the latest report was e-mailed to him. The
following is a copy of the witness=92s account.

- Airdrie (Sept. 6, 2003 =96 4 p.m.): "I have been reading the
paper about recent UFO??? sightings seen around Airdrie. I would
like to tell you about what I saw back on Sept. 6, 2003.

"I had just arrived home after attending the Fall Classic Show
and Shine at Nose Creek Park. It was 4 p.m in the afternoon
(and) I was looking out my livingroom window, which faces east.

"My home is situated (near the railway tracks). I noticed a
white, completely perfect round sphere going in a northerly
direction.

"It was definitely not a balloon. There was no string attached
and it was perfectly round, as balloons are not.

"It stayed at a constant speed and was completely unaffected by
wind currents. It may have been going about 30-50
kilometres/hour and it stayed at the exact same height. I
watched it until it disappeared out of sight. I felt like it may
have been following along Main Street, however, it may not have
been.

"It was also difficult to tell the size at that distance, but it
may have been larger than a beach ball. I have never seen
anything like it in my life. Has anyone else mentioned this to
you? I would be curious to know if I was the only one who saw
it."

Vike said that anyone else who might have witnessed the strange
object that day is asked to contact him.

"It helps with our research of such sightings," Vike said,
adding the aforementioned report brings the recent count in
Airdrie and area to at least nine sightings.

For more information, contact Vike at HBCC UFO Research=92s
Canadian toll-free UFO Hotline at 1-866-262-1989 or by e-mail
at: hbccufo@telus.net








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   Dec > Dec 18

                  (SK) Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:03:05 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:13:18 -0500
Subject: (SK) Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?


From: James J. Lippard <lippard-skeptic@discord.org>
To: skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 08:49:13 -0700
Subj: Re: FWD (UFO UpDate) Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?


>On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 05:01:27PM -0700, Terry W. Colvin wrote:

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:20:15 -0600
>>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>>From: William Scott Scherk <wss@uniserve.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:28:54 -0800
>>>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?


>>>The camp that asserts an alien UFO crash at Roswell is the
>>>majority, dominates TV programming, radio broadcasts, web sites
>>>and newsletter publications. This camp produces and sells the
>>>most books, tapes and videos, attracts the most tourists to its
>>>'crash sites,' and the most attenders to its conferences.

>>What a load of crap. I can attest, as an author of UFO books and
>>friend or acquaintance of other writers in the field, that
>>there's no money in it, the self-serving debunker mythologies
>>aside. In my next life, in fact, I am going to be a professional
>>skeptic and ride the gravy train engineered by CSICOP, whose
>>budget surely surpasses that of all pro-anomaly groups in
>>America combined, with plenty of green stuff to spare.

There is a lot more money in promoting the paranormal than in
bashing it, if you look at total book and magazine sales
(compare the circulation of Fate at its peak - hundreds of
thousands - to that of Skeptical Inquirer - about 65,000). It
may not be the individual authors who get rich (except for
people like Whitley Strieber), but there are definitely people
getting rich from promotion of the paranormal - movie production
companies, cable TV executives, Fox executives, publishing
execs, etc.

And it's the same on the skeptics' side - except that there are
a lot fewer people in such positions for skeptical material,
because it doesn't sell nearly as well.

The idea that there are professional skeptics riding a CSICOP
gravy train - or that CSICOP's budget exceeds all pro-anomaly
groups in America combined - is absurd. There are a few people
making money off of it, like Paul Kurtz. Nobody who writes for
Skeptical Inquirer, apart from the editor and a few special
columnists (or people who are already on staff), gets paid.
(Contrast that with Fate, which actually pays its authors.) When
I was offered a position at CSICOP, in 1992, I would have been
the second highest paid person in CSICOP after Barry Karr, the
Executive Director. For a full-time position, they offered me
about what I was making as a graduate TA part-time -
 $15,000/year. (I actually made slightly less as a TA, but it
was pretty close if I taught summer session as well.) I'm sure
they pay better now, and they have a larger paid staff, but I'm
also sure that their building-related expenses are such that
none of the employees are planning an early retirement.

>>>There is Science Frontiers, X-Project, Fortean Times, Strange
>>>Magazine, Parascope News, Journal of Scientific Exploration,
>>>FATE magazine, The Anomalist, Narratives of the Weird . . . And
>>>umpteen thousands of websites and mailing lists.

>>Not a single organization interested in anomalies and the
>>paranormal from a favorable or open-minded perspective can claim
>>a fraction of the money CSICOP possesses. Nor do proponents or

The publisher of Fortean Times is now Dennis Publishing, which
is much wealthier than CSICOP. (It is also the publisher of
Maxim and Stuff.) And I think you're forgetting about money from
Robert Bigelow (National Institute for Discovery Science), Joe
Firmage, and the James S. McDonnell Foundation (though I think
the money from McDonnell for parapsychology is long gone - it's
all mainstream science grants now).

And if you count creationism, there's huge money behind that,
coming from Howard Ahmanson (Discovery Institute, intelligent
design) and the Amway founders Rich DeVos and Jay Van Andel.

And you're obviously not counting the money that is spent on
astrology books and newspaper and magazine columns and psychic
hotlines.

>>the open-minded have a fraction of the influence CSICOP and the
>>elite media (which virtually never cover issues concerning
>>anomalies from a favorable or even neutral perspective) have on
>>the thinking of all those in a position to encourage, sponsor,
>>or fund research into ufology, cryptozoology, or parapsychology.

>>From a mainstream science perspective, yes, you're correct.
>>From an "elite media" perspective, you're right - so long as you
>>don't count Fox as "elite media."

>>As an officer of CUFOS, I can speak personally to the all-but-
>>nonexistent resources going to serious UFO research - as
>>opposed to the abundant cash and support that flow, in an
>>unending stream, toward professional debunking groups which tell
>>elites what they want to hear.

I believe you that CUFOS is in dire straits, but that's because
UFOlogy has been dying for years. But that's just one of
*thousands* of areas of paranormal and fringe science. If you
were John Edward, you wouldn't be complaining about lack of
funds. Maybe you should start focusing on Kecksburg, and maybe
you can get some of that SciFi Channel money.

Your claim that there is abundant cash flowing in an unending
stream to professional debunking groups seems to indicate that
you haven't attended any meetings of professional debunking
groups.

>>There is something vaguely obscene about what's going on here:
>>the presentation of CSICOP's overheated rhetoric, used to
>>lucrative effect in its numerous fund-raising letters, as if it
>>were supposed to be taken seriously - as if, in other words,
>>that it had any other purpose than a mercenary one.

I agree with you here - those letters are clearly over-the-top
fundraising appeals. And apparently they work well enough for
them to continue. But I think you greatly exaggerate the wealth
(and underestimate the operating expenses) of CSICOP.

>>In a world full of _real_ problems, it is hilarious - or
>>pathetic, take your choice - to take note of CSICOP's idea of a
>>huge social problem: that truck drivers and grocery clerks take
>>UFOs more seriously than do the wealthy and powerful who fund
>>CSICOP and spread its message in all major media. "Major media"
>>do not include low-budget cable outlets that air cheesy
>>"documentaries," or for that matter a small city's efforts to
>>separate tourists from their money.

I've never seen CSICOP get any coverage on local television news
in Phoenix, which is the sixth-largest city in the U.S. On the
other hand, I have seen the local Fox channel do a weekly "news"
segment uncritically promoting the paranormal, which they did
for years on Sunday nights after the X-Files. (They gave
completely gullible coverage of people like Jim Dilletoso -
another example of a paranormal promoter who was extremely well-
funded, he got his money from Geordie Hormel, who got his money
from the edible kind of Spam.)

>>Anybody who swallows CSICOP's rhetoric whole is not a "skeptic,"
>>just another slack-jawed true believer with his or her own
>>distinctive deity. As my late friend Marcello Truzzi, cofounder
>>and then fierce and articulate critic of CSICOP, used to put it:
>>pseudo-skepticism is easy; real skepticism is hard.

>>CSICOP is easy.

>>Jerry Clark


 -
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
<fortean1@mindspring.com>






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   Dec > Dec 18

                           Review: The Real Deal!

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:08:48 0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:21:52 -0500
Subject: Review: The Real Deal!


The Real Deal!

A review of Wendy Connors CD: Ufology: A Primer in Audio
1939 - 1959

By Alfred Lehmberg

www.alienview.net

Wendy Connors is the real ufological deal.

I say this confiding, honestly, that I report a great deal of
raw understatement, but I'm trying to avoid any hyperbole that
might degrade the sincerity and so then the effectiveness of
this review. Recently (and publicly!) I was accused by canted
detractors as having "absolutely zero" cognitive (BS) filters. I
remind the reader that I had abundant enough filtration to
filter out he who would accuse me of the lack of same... Ms.
Connors, on the other hand, is legitimately unfettered by the
need of any filtration.

Why?

Because Wendy Connors is very highly respected as a researcher,
and I'm not the only one who says so! She has been endorsed by
ufological commentators as wildly divergent in intellect,
contribution, and cant as Jerry Clark and Andy Roberts (leaving
it to the reader as to which of them describes the high mark and
which the low...) but her reputation as a researcher is of the
_highest_ order!

I'm unabashedly impressed with Wendy Connors, myself. She's a
genuine ufological investigator of the first water (you
appreciate her courage and the jewel like quality of her
contribution immediately!). In her written work, she is one of
the intrepid few able to take a subject too easily interpreted,
otherwise, as a threateningly fearful unknown, and with wit and
humor establish, for it, an enduring and sensible educational
framework for the rational, interested, and healthily curious.
Additionally, she allows, as a welcome result of her work, a
more useful understanding of UFOs that might be alternatively
enjoyed... knowledge, reader, is generally the antithesis of
fear!

The fruits of Ms. Connors latest research assesses the taproot
of modern ufology. You see, from the very beginning_, and at
the very start (even before the UFO flap in 1947, and as I
have written before), credible people were giving credible
reports to credible officials running credible investigations,
and these reports were, in turn, considered credible by the even
the more elevated, higher ranking, and hyper credible_!

In other words, at the start of the public interest in ufology,
intelligent, educated, and powerful people thought that these
UFOs (...admitted as a physical reality to actually be there in
the first place!!!) were intelligently guided craft... not of
this Earth! That's a fact, folks!

We know it's a fact because in the old, more naively innocent
(and less duplicitous) ufologically *uncontrolled* days, these
persons, and many, many others were recorded saying so! That's
a fact, too!

Where are all these old recordings then? What has become of
them? Where did they go?

They were momentarily lost to senseless history; that's where
they were! They were at the bottom of old trunks, in dusty
drawers and forgotten unvisited rooms. They were mislabeled,
misfiled, and mistaken for something else! Moreover, they were
corroded and damp and mildewed... in the process of
disintegration, aurally illegible, and fading into complete and
final oblivion!

Wendy Connors has reversed this ignoble fading of recorded
history (...to that awful finality of tragic loss); she has
mounted, and succeeded in, an arduous rescue of this history
from that oblivion! Additionally, she provides for a new kind
 of ufological credibility that would have been lost to us but
that she facilitated, expanded, and clarified the MEMORY of it
for our eventual benefit! There just can't be too many
superlatives for the magnitude of this work! No hyperbole here!

Errol Bruce Knapp, Jeff Rense, Art Bell, and George Noory have
historical precedents (and record their programs for history),
or maybe the reader thought these gentlemen sprang fully formed
from the forehead of Zeus in the late 20th Century! No, night
radio has long been the province of the paranormally twitchy,
almost for as long as there has been radio. Among these was a
popular late night talk show host by the name of "Long John"
Nebel. He was the "Errol Bruce Knapp" of his time.

Nebel (et. al.), by way of example, had all the ufological
luminaries on his radio program and much of what they said, way
back when, would raise the hair on the back of a complacent
neck, even today. These seminal programs, among many, many
others, would have been lost but for Wendy Connors diligence,
computer skill, and poignant sense of real history!

Nebel is only a fraction of what you could hear, reader! There
are pilots and engineers and air traffic controllers! There are
doctors and reporters and conservative professional persons!
There are military officers, famous radio personalities, and
named scientists! There are persons such as yourself, reader,
presuming your innocence or an honesty or a sincerity plainly
heard in many of these astonished voices from the past... real
and uncontrived persons recounting their unbelievable encounters
in a manner more easily believed, than not!

Y o u... a r e ... t h e r e, good reader! Ms. Connors makes you
a fly on the wall for "things are now as they were then, except
you... are... there"! You're there for a true to life accounting
of a historical actuality regarding the highly strange that
would have been heard (or remembered!) no other way! This is a
one of a kind, kind of thing.

Connors provides a time machine, actually a time machine with
the focus on the seminal ufological. Why, one of the segments is
the specially abridged "War of the Worlds" program that Orson
Wells produced in the 30's! The reader will recall that this is
the radio program about an invasion from Mars by hostile beings
that many astonishingly believed (!) ...and where Americans, by
the way, gave a damned good accounting of themselves, actually
(!), despite believing that they were being invaded by monsters
from beyond! Damned good! ...Whatever the reader has heard,
otherwise! I digress.

Connors' work is a dazzling array, a panoply, a huge range, a
plethora of the highly strange... (!) Fascinating voices in this
astonishing assemblage speak to a real world actuality of the
ufological! Hear the authentic voices of persons you'd only read
about as they share their amazing accounts and startling
testimonies! ...Dr. Willey Ley, Dr. Allen Hynek, Frank Scully,
Donald Keyhoe, Captain Edward Ruppelt, Major Dewey Fournet...
the list seems unending!

Additionally, there is a lot more than meets the eye with this
true wealth of a compilation! It is not just a mere collection
of dead voices (they throbbed with life once, same as you!). No,
one gets a sense, as one listens over and over again ( ...one
can with this collection!), that the ufological struggle by
individual human beings has been needlessly endured for decades!
One begins to perceive how people have tried to make sense of
what they had witnessed, or how they tried to rationalize their
out of the box experiences! One appreciates how they fought
then, as they fight now, for sense and sensibility when
confronted with the... abject 'weird' and highly 'strange'...
that is the larger reality many of us remain convinced is the
reality!

Ms. Connors has produced a compact disc, a volume one, entitled
"Ufology: A Primer in Audio 1939 1959", with nearly eight hours
of the uncompromised history you've never heard before... and
that I've barely described in this review. This one disc
contains over a hundred recordings of ufological history as it
happened, reader! I think it is as valuable as some the better
quality text books I've purchased and gotten less out of... for
a hundred... or a hundred and twenty dollars!

She wants twenty dollars for the disc, reader! It's a steal !
Orson Wells, all by _himself_, is worth that... and the disc
contains seven and a half more hours of quality material!

Check:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/team/wendy.html

...for a description, a table of contents, and purchase
information.

If the reader knows someone interested in UFOs, they'd love this
in their Christmas stocking! But get it for yourself, reader!
Forgetting that it is common sense support for quality ongoing
research of the highest order, it's a quality work to have in
any documentary library!

It's the real deal, folks. ...UFOs are real; we are not alone...

It's not the beginning of the end, or even the end of the
beginning . It's the beginning of the beginning! "... and you
are there...," reader! Wendy Connors, of "Faded Discs," makes
these enigmatic discs, decidedly, less faded, and succinctly
puts you there, right where they are! Hey boys and girls! It's
the future! Here's an opportunity to spin up on it give that
future a real PAST and so, therefore, a solid foundation!
Verily! Read on!








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   Dec > Dec 18

             Privately Funded SpaceShipOne Breaks Sound Barrier

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:45:41 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:44:36 -0500
Subject: Privately Funded SpaceShipOne Breaks Sound Barrier


Hello all,

I hope Orville and Wilbur are looking down on this with
approval.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/rutan_update_031217.html


Friends-This is another foot over The Threshold - Rutan ought to
run NASA.


GT McCoy








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   Dec > Dec 18

                   Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Mori

From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:09:27 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:49:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Mori


>From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:03:50 -0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>Since the detailed disposition of the men on deck does not seem
>to be known, might the men have been 'frantically running'
>*towards* their various stations as a result of what you
>describe as an emergency? In the circumstances - a first real-
>life defensive alert for young recruits - it wouldn't be
>surprising if this deployment were just a bit chaotic, would it?
>The more so if there were indeed a 'flying saucer' swooping
>past!

That's a very reasonable thought. But on an interview published
on 1979, Barauna claimed that:

"The presence of the saucer caused chills on all present ... In
fact, we could see the expression of panic on the crewmen,
_pointing guns to the sky_". [emphasys added]

Hardly something organized, if we are to believe Barauna's
account. Other sources claim different things. Barauna's
accounts (on the plural) are in fact extremely contradictory on
a lot of points on different interviews, contrary to what has
been claimed by some. The source of the above quote is an
article by Aurelio Zaluar published on "OVNI Documento" Oct/Dec
1979. In any case, this was a training ship which was doing
mainly scientific research and further establishing a permanent
presence on the island (and that may explain the high number of
people, if there was in fact 300 people aboard). It's
conceivable that the crewmen may have panicked, but one wonders
why panic or even chill if the photos indicate that the UFO, if
there was one, never got close to the ship, the reports talk of
no sound and everything was over in less than 30 seconds.

Zaluar's article is the basis for a few phrases of Claudeir
Covo's article published on the Brazilian UFO mag November last
year, which was translated and forwarded to this List (as
"Trindade Material - Part I"). Covo's work reproduce verbatim
some of the descriptions and expressions by Zaluar's. On the
original version in Portuguese, for instance, Covo even
reproduces verbatim a typo, "monte Desejo" (it's actually
"Desejado").

Covo's work also has a lot of other problems, some of them much
worse than reproducing typos. It claims that the UFO "vanished
behind a mountain. But soon it was visible again on the other
side", which seems to be another mistake.

But the biggest error in Covo's work is that it inform us that
"captain Moreira da Silva" declared "in an official tone" that:
"Our attitude toward the UFOs does not matter, because the fact
that there was a phenomenon documented in photographs and
confirmed by the written testimony of 48 witnesses remains".

That is not true, I mean, that statement was actually written
not long ago by Brazilian ufologist Wallacy Albino, on a text
published on his website. If we read his text, we can easily
understand why Covo made a mistake, as Albino's own comments
followed a quotation of Moreira's statements. Albino's text in
Portuguese can be accessed on:

http://www.geubs.com/paginas/pagina_03_02_01_04.htm

Even though we can understand the source of this confusion, this
is a big blunder. And it must also be noted that Covo reproduces
some expressions of Albino too. He also writes that the
"official report from the Fleet-Admiral, Antonio Maria de
Carvalho, chief of High Naval Command ... describes the
following details concerning the photos", and then goes on and
quotes what actually was Jose Geraldo Brandao's report, Corvette
Captain, Intelligence Service. This may also be undertood, as
Carvalho's letter had Brandao's report attached, and he does
mention the reference of the document, but from Carvalho to
Brandao, there's an enormous difference.

Covo's work aside, going back to Zaluar's 1979 article, it's
available on the internet (in Portuguese), on a transcription by
Reynaldo Maike:

http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/rsmaike/PastaB/IlhaTrindade.htm

One relevant quote of Barauna's interview is this:

"The presence of the saucer caused chills on all present, 48
people in all who saw it and there even was an official who was
truly terrified".

As you see, Zaluar's interview in 1979 may be the first source
of the now famous number 48. There's one previous Barauna
interview on 1973, where he's compared to Keffel (of the Tijuca
hoax) and Adamski (both considered as authentic cases...), but I
still don't have it in full, and don't know if there is mention
of this number there too. But, in any case, unless someone has
an older (than 1979 or 1973) and independent source for this
number, that means the source of it is actually Barauna himself,
decades after the incident. And it contradicts numbers he
himself gave on interviews at the time of the incident. It seems
he settled with the number 48 only decades later, and after 1979
(or 1973) finally kept giving consistently this mystical number
when asked (by Hynek et al in 1983, by Petit later, etc).

As of Petit summary of his interview with Barauna (translated
and posted on this List as "Trindade Material - Part III"),
besides the very relevant problems John Harney already pointed
out on this List, including the supposed use of a tripod and the
creation of three-dimensional images, it also mentions that
"Barauna had previously produced holograms of flying saucers
through trickery", referencing to his spoof photos of 1954. As
you may know, the laser was invented on 1958.

Bottom line is that Covo's work unfortunately has nothing new,
and has some big mistakes. Petit's summary of his interview with
Barauna also has some big problems, and we must see the original
taped interview and check Barauna's own words. Did Barauna
himself claim to have created holograms?

Borges work (translated and forwarded as "Trindade Material -
 Part II") have relevant points, even though since it was
written and published, first print scan images have further
confirmed what he dismissed. We are to expect Borges's upcoming
work on Trindade, which will have much new testimonial evidence.

Finally, for all the three translated materials, I recommend
that those who understand Portuguese try to obtain the
originals. Ademar Gevaerd kindly sent me them on electronic
format, as I didn't had Petit's note. The translation, though an
important and voluntary contribution to those who do not
understand Portuguese, has some adaptations, like correcting the
original reproduction of Covo of the "Desejo" typo, and also
some problems, like translating the final phrase of Borges work,
which was "the contrary work done by the critics", as "the
contradictory work done by the critics".

All these criticisms are, I believe, constructive and important
for those following the developments of the case being informed
on this List. I also tried to share and inform on some recent
developments, so that no one may have the idea that the case is
settled in any way. The Trindade Island case desperately needs
to be clarified on a lot of points.


Mori








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   Dec > Dec 18

                     Re: Abduction Statistics - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:16:16 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:52:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Statistics - Lehmberg


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:21:20 -0500
>Subject: Re: Abduction Statistics

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:06:14 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Abduction Statistics - Hall

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:26:17 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Abduction Statistics

>><snip>

>>>I'm sure it would be a boon to everyone in the UFO field, pro,
>>>con, or undecidied.

>>>- Dick

>>I don't believe the very powerful "cons" are remotely interested
>>in the potential of that kind of "boon" and are the major hurdle
>>to the generation of it, sir.

>Hello Alfred,

>In response to your comment; not at all! The real 'obstacle' to
>overcome is to secure the funding needed to actualize the
>study/database. Skeptics, whether honest or otherwise, do not
>even figure into the equation at this point.

I look under your 'obstacle' and see another 'obstacle', John.
Why is that funding not forthcoming? I think there is a group of
powerful 'cons' passionately employed in keeping the giggle
factor high, ufological consciousness low, and public respect
for ufology in a state of amused and fanciful indifference. I
think it's an industry, using a hijacked mainstream to
facilitate controlling means to a predetermined and very
convenient end of social control. Consider the busy but shadowy
imps just re-exposed on this List in the last few weeks and the
(largely) ignored implications of "sTAR Baby". Moreover, it's
the dishonest, powerful, and well funded *skeptics* (other
identifiers have been evolved for them) who define the equation
to begin with, figure into its very inception, and provide for
the lack of success of significant men like James McDonald and
Richard Hall. I think you make an assumption that the playing
field is level in the aggregate, John, where I suspect that it's
very, very canted.

>We need to insure that Dick and whoever else he can round up to
>do the job, are compensated for the formidable amount of time
>and labor that will be demanded of them.

No argument here. When grants are otherwise provided to study
farting cows you'd figure far-reaching studies like Richard Hall
would produce all sorts of opportunities and investment.

>After that, once this
>project becomes a 'live job,' the skeptics can and will (I'm
>sure) chime in. Whether their presence will prove to be an
>'obstacle' is yet to be seen.

John, Dude! True skeptics have _never_ been the problem, nor is
it a whacky *fringe* evolved to fill the informational *void*
fatuously provided by our leadership, our institutions, and our
agencies. I know we're on the same sheet of music on this John,
but I have to say again that I think you expect fair play from a
science mainstream conflicted by control of purse strings to
pursue ends for the benefit of the few at the expense of the
many. Fair play is _not_ forthcoming and there can be no support
for research that must ultimately and _completely_ restructure a
society programmed to maintain a 19th Century Status Quo.

>Let's get this sucker up and running before we give any
>consideration to how skeptics may or may not affect it. Right
>now, the people at CFI/Sci-Fi channel and FUFOR need to know
>that this study is important to all of us. Voice your support of
>it now. We'll worry about the skeptics later. :)

Of course it has my support, John, which goes without saying.
But I've got to allow for the potential of the most vocal and
passionate among us who thinks a truth is going to be respected
just because it's the truth, when every bit of my experience
shows that this is just not so! My solution, more civil legal
action! It's the only reason we don't till a three field
rotation for a manor lord, right now. With attention and
dilegence we must hijack -back- our own mainstream. We must
become the mainstream, and on the path to that is the
realization that we are beset by 'obstacles' thrown down in our
path, at the start, by persons revolted by the larger reality we
all know is there.

>*Dick... if there is _anything_ I can do to help the 'Spruce-
>Goose' get off the ground, let me know. I'll be there - with
>bells on!

I think every rational, far thinking, and unconflicted person
shall, John. But in their (our) way stands the irrational,
conflicted, and myopic, and they own the field, control public
opinion, have no respect for civil rights, and hate Richard
Hall's rational guts!


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $450.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Dec > Dec 19

                         Re: 1929 UFO Photo - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:51:48 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:35:34 -0500
Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo - McCoy


>From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:38:20 -0600
>Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo -

>Pline Family Search

>If you go to the 1930 Census records for Klamath Co., Colorado,
>at this site:

>http://www.idreamof.com/census/or/klamath/malin_42.html

>You'll find Edward J. Pline listed as a "Tree Faller" and a
>$10/month renter.  He's 29, and his family, including his wife
>and three children were apparently all from Missouri and lived
>on Rosicky Street. No mention of a "Hetty."

>His family:              Age
> Alpha M.   Wife     F W 28 Married 19
> Joseph E.  Son      M W 8  Single
> Doris M.   Daughter F W 5  Single
> Stanley J. Son      M W 1  Single

>So that at least places an Edward Pline in a sawmill in
>Colorado, 1929.

>Next search... names of kids (some may still be alive), also
>family in Missouri.

Hello, all Tim.

Sorry to be Critical, but it's Klamath Co. _Oregon_ having lived
in Oregon all my life,and delivered more than my share of Fire
Retardant out of Kingsley Field for most of the 9 years I was an
Aerial Firefighter,and also as an Airfreight Pilot, years Prior
to that, I am certain there is no Klamath Co. Colorado,(having
spent time fighting fire there too,and having deep roots there
on my Mother's side.)

However, based on that, I was thinking of that Photo,having been
up close and personal with most of the Terrain in the Western
US, over the years, and having done a little Logging myself,
with my Pop, back in the 70's .It doesn't quite look like the
area around Boulder,Co.The trees in the picture appear to be
Pondersoa Pine.Not unheard of at all in Colorado, but in the
northern part, White Pine is more common, Fir and Spruce too.

To Me, It looks like the area around Klamath Falls,
Oregon,particularly the area around-Malin, on the
Oregon/California border, the high desert country, there has
low, rolling hills, and is studded with rather anemic looking
Ponderosa, and Lodgepole pines..

Maybe the place to look for Hetty Pline or relatives, is in the
Klamath Falls Oregon, area.

I am curious,though as to why this is a difficulty with the
Photo. Wouldn't you think, Mr. Pline would've remembered where
he was at the time?


GT McCoy








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   Dec > Dec 19

               Scientific Search For Visitation From ET Probes

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:12:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:42:52 -0500
Subject: Scientific Search For Visitation From ET Probes



Whilst eking out another weekly update for my behavioral science
class I came across the following web site. The selection of
scientific and eclectic links is interesting.

Terry

-----

Source Citation: A Scientific Search for Visitation from
ExtraTerrestrial Probes.

http://www.setv.org/links-setv.html

Brief summary of source:


"Search for ET must not presume that the Human observer is
always wrong about that which is claimed to be observed. Humans
are after all the final authority and Humans are reporting
contact with suspected ET objects.

It is both naive and irresponsible to deny subjective
observational anecdotal data concerning possible observation of
suspected ET objects and suspected ET phenomenon simply in that
the data was collected via Human consciousness.

Noisy data requires more sampling and more clever filtering to
yield better results.

Until such time that possible ET presence has been proven not to
exist, one must not exclude the possibility that ET and or their
proxies are interacting within the Human environment as
proclaimed by Humans.

These links present additional albeit anecdotal resource for the
curious and thorough investigator. The links have been
scrutinized for the best possible quality within that category.

There are curious data to be seen and if one decides to do so,
data need be examined within the light of science not bias."


-- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
<fortean1@mindspring.com>








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   Dec > Dec 19

                        Re: Filer's Files #48 -- 2003

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:23:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:45:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #48 -- 2003


>Filer's Files #48 -- 2003 Skywatch Investigations.
>George A. Filer, Director Mutual UFO Network Eastern
>November 26, 2003, Webmaster: Chuck Warren --
>My website is at: www.georgefiler.com/
>Majorstar @ aol.com Sponsored by: Cognigen


Excerpt from Filer's Files #48:

>Arizona - Three UFOs Escort New Arrivals

>Scott Heckman writes, "I am always watching for UFOs.
>Unfortunately, I have changed my residence to where I do not
>have the panorama that I once did while living on Turquoise
>Mountain 33 miles north of Bisbee in a ghost town area called
>Courtland." There are still unknown craft that fly nightly from
>New Mexico heading west through the Chiricauha Mountains that
>take up positions in the Dragoon Mountains. There are three
>craft that operate as pilot craft that assist newly arriving
>craft, piloting them into high remote canyons in the Dragoons.
>Some the of the new arrivals will remain for about 20 minutes
>before continuing onto the Roosevelt Lake area, then on to the
>Tonto Basin northeast of Phoenix. I have followed them to these
>locations. Some of the crafts fly carefully at low altitudes
>towards Ft. Huachuca on the US/Mexican border.

[I have seen the military air activity in this area but not the
UFO lights in the sky. For example, from July thru December of
2002, I worked nights on the East and West Ranges at Fort
Huachuca. Besides the green fireball Elaine K. and I witnessed
and the one report from a brother and sister team of a green
object near the San Pedro River, none of this alleged UFO
activity has been observed. On these 12-hour shifts there is
usually one, sometimes two, equipment maintainers on the ranges.
Our 'Starship' wireless network monitors lock and motion sensors
and we provided the physical portion, replacing equipment as
necessary.]

>This evening at dusk, I saw a brilliant light descending in a
>floating manner to a location just across the San Pedro River.
>Its path was about a 20-degree descent; traveling about 200 mph
>before it disappeared below the tree line. My present location
>is seven and a half miles from the US/Mexican border on the west
>bank of the San Pedro River. I am situated in a sort of
>depression. My view of the sky is excellent except for the fact
>that I cannot see low-level flights to the east because of the
>cottonwoods on the river. Most every evening I see anomalous
>lights at tree top level, which fly towards the Ft. Huachuca,
>then disappear when approaching the restricted airspace near the
>fort. Frequently, I see three or more crafts with orange glowing
>lights or blue-white strobes that flash intermittently when
>approaching from the east towards the fort. It is not infrequent
>that F-16's are scrambled by the military, which pursue the
>unknown vessels back towards the mountains to the east and south
>back into Mexico air space. The location where I live is a
>militarized zone because of the intensity of the illegal migrant
>traffic, i.e., drug and smuggling. We have US Border Patrol
>(Office of Homeland Security) NSA, DOD, Marines, Customs, and US
>Army all assisting in the border's security. There is so much
>air activity including DEA black helicopters that many times it
>is hard to tell what is what, unless I travel to the Dragoon
>Mountains to watch the activity. The altitude affords me the
>opportunity to view hundreds of square miles of airspace. On
>nights when it is really windy the choppers cannot negotiate the
>peaks of the mountains. Yet, I can set up camp in the remote
>canyons and ridges to watch these unknown vessels fly where no
>choppers or conventional air craft can fly and watch all these
>strange unknowns enter the air space in the canyons and ridges
>with no problem at all. They kind of float around and descend
>into the remote canyons hidden from view. Despite the heavy
>winds that buffet them. Thanks to Scott Heckman.

[No black helicopters, only Border Patrol and news media helos
are in our skies. There is a NSA (no such agency) representative
at Fort Huachuca but no detachment assisting in border security.
I will agree this is a "militarized" zone. Drug runners and UDAs
(undocumented aliens) often use the San Pedro River valley
corridor. Access to water, hiding in the cottonwoods and heavy
brush extending from the banks, the mountain peaks rising to
almost 10,000 feet in the Chiricahuas and the Huachucas, and the
unforgiving Sonoran desert area to our west makes this a hot
spot. Odd that aliens, terrestrial and extraterrestrial, find
this area so inviting. [;>))]

[F-16s, A-10s, C-130s, and UAVs are frequently seen in our
skies. The F-16s and A-10s fly in from Davis-Monthan Air Force
Base (Tucson) to do touch and goes, nap of the earth along the
valleys floors and sky islands (mountain ranges) in Cochise
County.]

[Bisbee, the county seat, is a former copper, gold, and silver
mining town that is now an artsy-fartsy, Santa Fe-style, aging
hippie town.]

[This is probably the same Scott Heckman I exchanged e-mails
with back in May 1999 and March 2000. I offered to meet with him
at the Bisbee Public Library but he neither showed up nor
followed up with an e-mail explaining why.]

Terry W. Colvin
[Fort Huachuca and Sierra Vista, Arizona]


--
�Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress.� Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
<fortean1@mindspring.com>







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   Dec > Dec 19

                Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:41:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:52:52 -0500
Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Colvin



Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 08:45:42 -0700
From: "James J. Lippard" <lippard-skeptic@discord.org>
  To: skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu
Subj: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?


sTARBABY was made available in electronic form in 1992 on
GEnie's Astrology RoundTable by Ed Perrone, and has been
available at various places on the Internet since that time
including:

http://www.discord.org/~lippard/rawlins-starbaby.txt

Phil Klass's response, "CRYBABY" (online since November 1991
when Rick Moen posted it to this mailing list):

http://www.discord.org/~lippard/klass-crybaby.txt

My commentary on "CRYBABY":

http://www.discord.org/~lippard/jjl-on-crybaby.txt

My commentary on the Mars Effect:

http://www.discord.org/~lippard/jjl-on-mars-effect.txt

Richard Kammann's "The True Disbelievers"

http://www.discord.org/~lippard/kammann.html

My chronology of events and publications related to the Mars
Effect controversy:

http://www.discord.org/~lippard/mars-effect-chron.rtf

--
Jim Lippard

***********

--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress."
Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com








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   Dec > Dec 19

                  Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:49:56 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:56:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Shough


>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:09:27 -0300
>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>>From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:03:50 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>>Since the detailed disposition of the men on deck does not seem
>>to be known, might the men have been 'frantically running'
>>*towards* their various stations as a result of what you
>>describe as an emergency? In the circumstances - a first real-
>>life defensive alert for young recruits - it wouldn't be
>>surprising if this deployment were just a bit chaotic, would it?
>>The more so if there were indeed a 'flying saucer' swooping
>>past!

>That's a very reasonable thought. But on an interview published
>on 1979, Barauna claimed that:

>"The presence of the saucer caused chills on all present ... In
>fact, we could see the expression of panic on the crewmen,
>_pointing guns to the sky_". [emphasys added]

>Hardly something organized, if we are to believe Barauna's
>account.

Hello Kentaro,

Well to be fair I didn't suggest that the 'frantic running' was
organised. On the contrary I suggested that in such
circumstances *normally* ordered behaviour might become chaotic
and turn into frantic running. But really I just wanted to
suggest that different points of view are possible. The point is
that I'm not sure that the very fine niceties of definition and
distinction that we are appealing to here can support very much
weight themselves, because they don't seem to affect strong
structural features of the account and also seem often to depend
on second-hand reports of what someone says Barauna told them.

>Other sources claim different things.

Indeed . . .

>Barauna's
>accounts (on the plural) are in fact extremely contradictory on
>a lot of points on different interviews, contrary to what has
>been claimed by some. The source of the above quote is an
>article by Aurelio Zaluar published on "OVNI Documento" Oct/Dec
>1979.

How many original accounts in Barauna's own hand are there? I'd
be interested if significant contradictions exist between
transcripts or tapes of Barauna's own words made at different
times.

>In any case, this was a training ship which was doing
>mainly scientific research

Your remark implies that "a training ship which was doing mainly
scientific research" would have a rather peacable crew not given
to waving guns, and that thisis inconsistent with Barauna's
reference to guns being pointed in a warlike fashion, the
conclusion being that Barauna's description of the scene on deck
is made up. Yet John Harney's objection to the same issue was
that a highly disciplined crew on an official navy vessel would
not have just run about nervelessly but would have reacted
militarily. What we seem to have in Zaluar's quotation is a
compromise between these two - a rather jumpy armed crew doing
something but not very efficiently. To my mind that fits fairly
well with a bunch of presumably young military trainees who are
not really expecting 'active duty'. I can't find anything very
damning in this.

>and further establishing a permanent
>presence on the island (and that may explain the high number of
>people, if there was in fact 300 people aboard).

So there might have been a mix of many different people on deck
then - from ships officers to raw recruits to engineers,
surveyors, civilians, whatever. This was a hydrographic survey
vessel, was it not? How is it possible to put tight constraints
on how a spectrum of different types of people might behave in
very extraordinary circumstances when we don't even know who
they were? (And yes of course that is _the_ point.) How can we
know which individuals actually were running or jostling, or
when and where, and what it signified about their emotional
state? The absence of good information about these reported
witnesses means that such speculation is hazardous.

>It's
>conceivable that the crewmen may have panicked,

Ah . . .

>but one wonders
>why panic or even chill if the photos indicate that the UFO, if
>there was one, never got close to the ship, the reports talk of
>no sound and everything was over in less than 30 seconds.

One does indeed wonder but I'm not convinced that it gets
anywhere. Let me suggest that if everything was "*over in less
than 30 seconds" then it is not inconsistent with the apparent
failure of officers to establish good discipline among this crew
of part trainees and non-battle-hardened scientific types. If it
had been 30 minutes then we might be surprised. And what
conceivable objective basis can you offer for your statement
that no one ought to have been alarmed by a huge 120-foot flying
saucer hurtling past them and slowing over the island where you
say they were due to establish a permanent base? Are there
reliable data on this?

The rest of your post mentions a number of statements about
Barauna's report by other writers, some of whom say things that
seem - as you say - to need clarification. For example, there is
somebody's claim that Barauna made holograms before Townes'
invetnion of the laser. As you rightly say, this is a matter for
the claimant to substantiate in the absence of Barauna's own
words. The fact that Claudeir Covo mis-spells 'Monte Desejado'
may be lamentable, but is this a core issue? And I'm sure
everyone knows by now that there are not 48 signed and
attributable statements from 48 witnesses, otherwise I doubt
this discussion would be happening. So again, the fact that some
individual writes on there website that such statements exist is
lamentable but not very material.

And it may be that Barauna was the person who estimated the
figure of 48 as stated by Zaluar in 1979. He later 'settled on
it'. So what? Why is this somehow damaging to his credibility?
There is I assume some reason why you regard it as a 'mystical'
n umber, and I would like to know why you imply that Barauna's
failure to continue to give different contradictory guesses to
other people is a sign of fraud? Is this a case of the
'pathological consistency' to which I alluded in my recent post
to John Harney? Perhaps, but then you say he initially made a
different guess (and how could it have ever been more than a
guess?). Well, perhaps these guesses differed by, what, a factor
of two, three? I don't know. But does it much matter? We all
behave like this and neatly codify our uncertain memories of
past events for convenience and because we understand that
people value consistency. It's perfectly natural. It doesn't
have to mean we're fantasists or liars.

<snip>

>All these criticisms are, I believe, constructive and important
>for those following the developments of the case being informed
>on this List. I also tried to share and inform on some recent
>developments, so that no one may have the idea that the case is
>settled in any way. The Trindade Island case desperately needs
>to be clarified on a lot of points.

Certainly. It's a fascinating case, and I sincerely wish I was
able to follow the materials in Portuguese. Thanks for all the
information. Incidentally, with regard to the photo analysis -
which I think is a *much* more important area than this, Mori,
and is where you will be most likely to prove a convincing case,
if that is possible - Larry Robbins recently claimed on the UFORL
list that enhancement had shown regular patches of  different
density in the sky around each image, revealing a cut-and-paste
job. Does anyone know if there is any basis to this story?


Regards

Martin Shough








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   Dec > Dec 19

               Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:37:57 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:59:57 -0500
Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Lehmberg


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:46:42 -0600
>Subject: Re: (SK) sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:03:05 -0700
>>Subject: (SK) Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>From: James J. Lippard <lippard-skeptic@discord.org>
>>To: skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu
>>Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 08:49:13 -0700
>>Subj: Re: FWD (UFO UpDate) Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>>On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 05:01:27PM -0700, Terry W. Colvin wrote:

>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>>Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:20:15 -0600
>>>>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>>>>From: William Scott Scherk <wss@uniserve.com>
>>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>>>Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 18:28:54 -0800
>>>>>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

<snip>

Remembering how it came to pass, I think, that the point of the
thread became, "who's got what when..." I have to reflect how
deftly steered it was from the original, more interesting and
salient, point, which was that CSICOP (Committee for the
Seriously Insentient Commitment of Obdurate Persons) was _not_
the scientific clearing house for rationality it pretended to
be... but a paid public relations effort for the paranormal
dumbing down of aggregate humanity, an employer of tactics,
attitudes, and agendas that are not _remotely_ balanced, and so
a clearing house for obfuscation, duplicity, and biased cant,
only.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $450.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Dec > Dec 19

                        Re: NASA's Integrity In Data

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:24:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:56:33 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA's Integrity In Data


>From: Francis C. P. Knize <Frankknee@aol.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 10:25:12 EST
>Subject: NASA's Integrity In Data

>To Lan Fleming

<snip>

I guess I was too diplomatic in my last response to Mr. Knize.
I'll be more blunt in this _final_ response:

Your schemes are just plain silly. They don't _not_ want to be
associated with them or with you. Do _not_ send any more emails
to NASA that refer to me as if I were somehow associated with
you. I've already gotten an email from someone at NASA asking
about this and had to explain that I have nothing to do with
Knize.

I'm afraid I've underestimated one major reason why NASA people
are so biased against "fringe" research like UFOs and planetary
SETI: being pestered constantly by people like Mr. Knize. In
that respect I can sympathize with NASA from unwanted personal
experience.

That's it. I'm not replying to any more of Knize's emails.







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                 Re: Opinions Concerning Sci-Fi's Rendlesham

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:09:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:36:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Opinions Concerning Sci-Fi's Rendlesham


>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:25:56 -0700
>Subject: Re: Opinions Concerning Sci-Fi's Rendlesham Special?

>>From: William Wise <w.wise@mac.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 17:12:40 -0500
>>Subject: Opinions Concerning Sci-Fi's Rendlesham Special?

<snip>

>I was also very taken with Penniston's testimony, and especially
>his brief loss of control. (I have seen this reaction before, in
>the woods south of Heber, Arizona, where last summer I watched
>Ken Peterson lose it when confronted by the Turkey Springs
>Incident site for the first time in nearly 30 years. Penniston's
>reaction was no less gut-wrenching.) As someone who was
>peripherally and briefly involved in the Bentwaters case some
>years back, I can say I learned a good deal from this special,
>and most of it from Penniston. I did not, for instance, remember
>hearing that he had copied the symbols into his notebook. (Has
>anyone thought of comparing them with symbols that Jesse Marcel
>Jr. provided from his memory of the Roswell materials? Or with
>anyone's recollection of the Kecksburg "exoglyphs"?) And the DS8
>business is very interesting; however, I think the show may have
>spun it a little to make it look as if he were revealing
>something no one knew anything about until the MoD documents
>were released, whereas I don't think DS8 would have been highly
>classified. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

>The special did bring up some disturbing questions in my mind
>about Col. Halt. Over the years he seems to have become more and
>more outspoken about the case; in fact I recall he was at first
>reticent to do any TV shows, whereas now he seems to revel in
>the role of "chief spokesman." And I am very uncomfortable with
>the fact that he seems to have embellished his testimony; this
>was the first I'd heard that he was now claiming the shafts of
>light were aimed at the "high interest" areas. Gordon Williams
>was right, if that had been in Halt's original report, or his
>oral statements, there would have been a considerable reaction
>by both the USAF and MoD, which would be reflected in a highly
>visible investigation.

>I also don't like the way the show completely dismissed the
>Oreford Ness Lighthouse. I believe they engaged in a little
>sleight-of-hand to take it off the books. Note that they were
>never clear about which of the now two landing sites was too far
>away from the lighthouse until the very end of that segment,
>when we are told that it was Penniston's. This means that Halt's
>landing site was indeed still within sight of the lighthouse,
>and it is Halt's landing site that is the subject of the
>audiotape, and it is the audiotape that is used to synchronize
>the lighthouse cycle with the observations of the witnesses. Yet
>Gumble grumbles that the lighthouse theory is dead, and the two
>men agree. It's only dead for the Penniston/Burroughs/ Cabansag
>sighting, not the Halt sighting. To be sure, I wouldn't give you
>two farthings for the lighthouse theory, but I thought it was a
>bit disingenuous of them to gloss over it so clumsily.

>That aside, I'm fairly content with Sci-Fi's treatment thus far.

Hello Jim,

You wrote:

>I say thus far because I am hoping they will not rest on their
>laurels, will continue to update this and other cases, and will
>delve into a couple of others in the future. (Which ones? That
>discusson would make a good thread in itself...)

I would like to see them tackle (and publicize) the Northern
Tier military base sightings where the presence of "UFOs"
coincided with nuclear missile shutdowns/malfunctions. As you
mentioned, Halt's 'new' testimony now 'hints at' the fact that
the real objects of interest for the UFOs may have been the
nuclear armaments stockpiled at Rendlesham AFB.

In point of fact, we have a 'theme' developing.

509th Bomber group, Roswell

Northern Tier Nuclear missle base sightings/shutdowns

Rendlesham AFB. shining 'beams' on the nuclear stockpile.

And Lord only knows how many other military 'nuke' related UFO
incidents have happened that we _haven't_ heard about!

I vote for Sci-Fi looking into the Northern Tier UFO sightings.
It's as good as it gets in terms of 'meaningful' UFO events.


Regards,

John Velez








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                        Re: 1929 UFO Photo - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:57:37 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:33:12 -0500
Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo - Tonnies


>From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:38:20 -0600
>Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo

>Pline Family Search

>If you go to the 1930 Census records for Klamath
>Co., Colorado, at this site:

>http://www.idreamof.com/census/or/klamath/malin_42.html

>You'll find Edward J. Pline listed as a "Tree Faller" and a
>$10/month renter.  He's 29, and his family, including his wife
>and three children were apparently all from Missouri and lived
>on Rosicky Street. No mention of a "Hetty."

<snip>

Nice investigative work! "Hetty" definitely sounds like a nick-
name to me, so it's not particularly surprising you didn't find
it.


Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com (daily blog)

AFTER THE MARTIAN APOCALYPSE: in bookstores July, 2004
http://www.mactonnies.com/atma.html








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                         Re: BBC Timewatch - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:40:18 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:44:18 -0500
Subject: Re: BBC Timewatch - Miller


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:15:19 -0000
>Subject: Re: BBC Timewatch

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:06:54 -0000
>>Subject: Re: BBC Timewatch

>>C'mon man, play the game. Don't judge before you've seen it. It
>>might actually be very good - arf, arf. Doing an impression of a
>>seal flapping it's flippers and begging for a fish appears to
>>the new way, according to Roberts', of indicating laughter on
>>this List.

<snip>

>>Just in case you think it's only on this List that they get up
>>people's noses, then be advised that in the January edition of
>>the British publication UFO Magazine there are seven letters on
>>the letters page and two of them are dedicated to the ineptitude
>>and incompetence of our beloved duo.

>No-one is above criticism, especially when it's based on
>ignorance and opinion. Two out of five ain't bad.

>Would this be the same UFO Magazine which is always pleased to
>receive, publish and pay for our excellent article? Or is it,
>perhaps, the same UFO Magazine once run by Graham Birdsall who
>told me via email that Dave and I would be Investigators of the
>Year for 2003 (if he hadn't met an untimely demise). I guess it
>is.

Andy,

Enough of this nonsense! It's the holiday period and so,
goodwill to all men and of course, sceptics too.

I wish you well with the programme. For my part, I at least hope
I enjoy it, if nothing else. Bearing in mind my reaction to the
chapter in "Strange Secrets" on cattle mutilations and the
ensuing result, am I likely to want to chuck the telly across
the room as well after viewing the programme?

Graham's premature passing is still a sore point for some of us.
He was unlike me and you Andy. He was nice. He was also a
balanced and fair man and would have welcomed an alternative
viewpoint. If it's of any interest or indeed comfort to you, he
did say to me that he thought "Shadows" was "quite good". I
hadn't read it at the time so I couldn't argue with him!


Stuart Miller








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                 Re: Morehead Kentucky Field Investigation -

From: Michael Christol <spachopr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:31:39 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:36:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Morehead Kentucky Field Investigation -


>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 03:02:36 -0500
>Subject: Morehead Kentucky Field Investigation


Hi  Kenny  and List:

Having followed this post from the first, where it was insinuated
that a woman and baby were in the field, and terrifying screams
were heard at approximately the same time the UFO was seen
by the witnesses, my question is:

If the woman - and child? - were abducted that night, what has
happened to them since? Were there any reports of a missing
mother and child, or a woman in that area?

Has that woman and child since reappeared and returned to
her/their day to day life?

I haven't heard anyone mention the woman's reappearance. If she
has not reappeared, what is your opinion as to what has happened
to her?

I feel this question must be researched and answered by those
who are working this case.

Due to physical constraints, (minor outpatient surgery), which,
hopefully, will be healed by the first of 2004 or shortly
thereafter, I have not been able to do an on site investigation.

The area where the sighting/abduction? occurred is only about
two hours or so from my location.

If you have any additional information you would like to share
with me off-List, please feel free to do so.


Peace profound,

Mike










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                         Re: 1929 UFO Photo - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:08:05 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:53:43 -0500
Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo - Shell


>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:51:48 -0800
>Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo

>>From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:38:20 -0600
>>Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo

>>Pline Family Search

>>If you go to the 1930 Census records for Klamath Co., Colorado,
>>at this site:

>>http://www.idreamof.com/census/or/klamath/malin_42.html

>>You'll find Edward J. Pline listed as a "Tree Faller" and a
>>$10/month renter. He's 29, and his family, including his wife
>>and three children were apparently all from Missouri and lived
>>on Rosicky Street. No mention of a "Hetty."

>>His family:           Age
>>Alpha M.  Wife    F W 28 Married 19
>>Joseph E. Son     M W 8 Single
>>Doris M. Daughter F W 5 Single
>>Stanley J. Son    M W 1 Single

>>So that at least places an Edward Pline in a sawmill in
>>Colorado, 1929.

>>Next search... names of kids (some may still be alive), also
>>family in Missouri.

>Hello, all Tim.

>Sorry to be Critical, but it's Klamath Co. _Oregon_ having
>lived in Oregon all my life,and delivered more than my share of
>Fire Retardant out of Kingsley Field for most of the 9 years I
>was an Aerial Firefighter,and also as an Airfreight Pilot, years
>Prior to that, I am certain there is no Klamath Co.
>Colorado,(having spent time fighting fire there too,and having
>deep roots there on my Mother's side.)

I believe you're right. When I did my search, I put in "Pline"
and "CO," and the CO, came up as "county" and not Colorado. My
mistake. I'm not familiar with Klamath.

>However, based on that, I was thinking of that Photo,having
>been up close and personal with most of the Terrain in the
>Western US, over the years, and having done a little Logging
>myself, with my Pop, back in the 70's .It doesn't quite look
>like the area around Boulder,Co.The trees in the picture appear
>to be Pondersoa Pine.Not unheard of at all in Colorado, but in
>the northern part, White Pine is more common, Fir and Spruce
>too.

>To Me, It looks like the area around Klamath Falls,
>Oregon,particularly the area around-Malin, on the
>Oregon/California border, the high desert country, there has
>low, rolling hills, and is studded with rather anemic looking
>Ponderosa, and Lodgepole pines..

>Maybe the place to look for Hetty Pline or relatives, is in the
>Klamath Falls Oregon, area.

>I am curious,though as to why this is a difficulty with the
>Photo. Wouldn't you think, Mr. Pline would've remembered where
>he was at the time?

Well, then my error wasn't totally useless, which makes me feel
a little better. After all, how many Edward Plines were tree
fallers around that time, either in Colorado or Oregon? Seems
like it might be the same person, unless the family migrated to
Oregon from Colorado in 1930. I doubt it, though. Curious.








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                Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:41:47 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:05:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Clark


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:12:31 -0600
>Subject: Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:37:57 -0600
>>Subject: Re: (SK) sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:46:42 -0600
>>>Subject: Re: (SK) sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?


Hi, Alfred,

>....And I read Klass' rebuttle paper, "Crybaby", too, which was a
>mirror image of Rawlins'... where R. attacked the argument over
>the man, K. attacked the man over the argument, and I felt like
>I needed a shower after reading K....

When Klass submitted his "rebuttal" to Fate for publication
after we'd published "Starbaby", it was so laughably inept that
the Fullers refused to run it. I argued that we should run it
just to show how unable CSICOP was to defend its action, but I
was over-ruled.

Incidentally, a note to all:

The article is "Starbaby," not "sTARBABY." The latter was just a
stylistic thing Curt Fuller insisted on, but was never meant to
denote the actual title, which ought to be rendered in
conventional form.

I also wish to add that, despite his recent post, which I found
disappointing, I believe that Jim Lippard played an honest,
honorable role in this controversy.


Jerry Clark








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                        Re: 1929 UFO Photo? - Hurley

From: Matthew Hurley <m.hurley@ntlworld.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:53:28 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:11:16 -0500
Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo? - Hurley


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:11:23 -0600
>Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo?

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 00:24:53 -0800
>>Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo?

>>I wonder if the fellow who submitted the old photo can be
>>reached.

>I did a little "googling" and found what appears to be the first
>source of the Ward Colorado photograph on the net:

>http://www.ufoartwork.com/

>The web site's owner, Matthew Hurley, is coming out with a book,
>"Alien Chronicles" that will be mostly about pre-1947 artwork
>purportedly showing UFOs. (That's a subject that's come up on
>this List several times in the past). However, Hurley has also
>been collecting old photographs. There's a link on his web page
>that starts a slide presentation of several of them, including
>the Ward photo (third one). Most of them seem more ambiguous
>and/or more likely to be photographic defects than the Ward
>photo.

>I think it would be extremely unlikely for the negative of a
>74-year old photograph to have survived, but like I said
>earlier, an examination of the print should establish whether
>it's as old as it appears to be and whether the object is a
>photographic defect or a hoax. Maybe Hurley will have some more
>information on it in his book.


Hi All,

The photo has been on my site:

http://www.ufoartwork.com/

for over a year. It was supplied to me by Swiss researcher Alain
Stauffer from Geneva. Unfortunately, I don't have any more
information on it.


Regards

Matt Hurley








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                         Re: 1929 UFO Photo - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch@sysmatrix.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:52:41 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:23:44 -0500
Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo - Hatch


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 13:09:04 -0600
>Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo

>>From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:38:20 -0600
>>Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo - Shell

>>Pline Family Search

>>If you go to the 1930 Census records for Klamath Co., Colorado,
>>at this site:

>>http://www.idreamof.com/census/or/klamath/malin_42.html

>>You'll find Edward J. Pline listed as a "Tree Faller" and a
>>$10/month renter. He's 29, and his family, including his wife
>>and three children were apparently all from Missouri and lived
>>on Rosicky Street. No mention of a "Hetty."

>Very interesting. I wasn't even aware that detailed census
>information like that was available online. At least we know
>that there really was such a person as Edward Pline - not a
>particularly common name - working for a timber company at the
>time in Oregon.

>I don't have a map of Oregon handy, so I'm not sure how close
>Klamath County is to Ward County where the photograph was
>allegedly taken.

>The daughter's age is listed as 5 in 1930, which isn't too far
>off from the 6 years that "Hetty" said she was when the photo
>was taken, but Hetty is a nickname for Henrietta, not Doris.
>Sometimes people do get nicknames that don't have anything to do
>with their real name, but it does seem pretty doubtful.

>Unless Hurley or whoever first got wind of the photo can supply
>additional information, this photo can't be of any importance.
>If other old photos surface, I hope whoever gets them does a
>better job of verifying them.


Hello Lan, Tim, GT...

There is _no_ Ward County in either Oregon nor in Colorado.
There is definitely a Klamath County in Oregon, but none in
Colorado. The one _town_of Ward, CO is in Boulder County
although there are other features (dams, what-not ) named Ward
this-and-such all over Colorado.

Nothing in the original and much copied story indicates a
county, just "Ward, Colo" and of course the Pline names.

The websites are/were falling over one another to copy the tale
and photo, but none of them give me any indication of having
been the first or original. I wonder if this didn't come off
some blog or discussion group that Google missed?

There are copies translated to other languages as well. One of
those in French puts Colorado as a region in Iowa State. Another
French copycat, aping the first one, drops "Ward" and finds
Colo, Iowa as if "Colo" were the town instead of Ward.

Its starting to look like a case study in BS propagation.


Best

- Larry

= = = = = =








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                         Re: 1929 UFO Photo - Aubeck

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:38:14 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:25:25 -0500
Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo - Aubeck


>From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:08:05 -0600
>Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo - Shell

>>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:51:48 -0800
>>Subject: Re: 1929 UFO Photo

What catches my eye is not the unlikely "UFO"
that sits so neatly in the middle of the photo
as if it were posing for the snapshot, nor the
fact that the object does not seem to have been
moving at all, but the source given for the image:

"Source: El Disco"

http://www.ufoevidence.org/Photographs/Photo121.htm

I can't find a web page with that name anywhere, and it isn't
linked, either. Whatever place it was, there were some other
pretty awful UFO photographs along with this one in there:

http://www.ufoevidence.org/Photographs/Photo12.htm

http://www.ufoevidence.org/Photographs/Photo120.htm

"Hetty" >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 may always remain anonymous and
untraceable, but I'm sure that here she'll forever live up to
her nickname here on the list:

http://www.babynameworld.com/h-girl.asp



Chris

http://embark.to/magonia









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   Dec > Dec 20

                  Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:16:40 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:42:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts - Rimmer


>From: Max Burns <max.burns@ntlworld.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:30:14 -0000
>Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts

>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:55:18 -0000
>>Subject: Randles On Clarke & Roberts

I have snipped all the material in which Burns pursues his
ludicrous arguments that Dave Clark and Andy Roberts
(particularly the latter) are the agents of the devil and/or the
British Government. In promoting this view, he urges us to read
his article in Notes From the Borderland. I would urge anyone
who wishes, to do so, where they will simply find a string of
unsupported allegations - research by proclamation, to coin a
phrase.

However, I am more interested in the following exchange. Jenny
Randles comments:

>>Was I aware that Andy had been engaged in hoaxing? He has often
>>made dark hints about this, but I have never seen any evidence
>>of such activities, nor has Andy ever privately told me what he
>>might have been up to.

>>I learned of the Blue Hare saga much like others did but I am no
>>wiser than anyone else as to the details or motives.

>>How do I view experimental hoaxing? I think it can have a useful
>>role to play in UFO investigation - revealing data about
>>observation, perception, and reporting mechanisms - all vital to
>>our study. There have been some impressive examples in the past
>>(eg the Cradle Hill hoax photo test).

To which Burns replies:

>Surely people who take part in experiments usually have prior
>notice that they are taking part. Jenny it was wrong and you
>know it.

Well, no, Max. If you are performing an experiment to see how
people react to, describe and report unusual and unexpected
visual stimuli it is important that they are not warned in
advance that they are taking part in an experiment!

An experimental hoax will create a carefully controlled stimuli
which will be presented to a observers. Knowing the cause of the
stimuli, and having control over when and how it is presented,
the experimenters will be able to compare the descriptions of
the stimuli produced by the observers against the known nature
of the stimuli, and determine how accurate they were in
describing it.

Such an experiment might be aimed at members of the general
public, perhaps in a UFO flap area, but is more likely to
produce significant results if it is aimed at UFO researchers.

As Jenny Randles comments, an impressive example of a carefully
constructed hoax, designed to discover how thoroughly
researchers investigated a series of "UFO" photographs was
conducted at Cradle Hill, Warminster, during the height of the
area's UFO flap in 1970.

A full description of this can be found on the Magonia website
at:

www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/70/hoax.html

A follow up article, reviewing this experiment and reactions to
it can be found at:

www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/hoaxreview.htm.

It is clear from this study that many UFO researchers, even
those who are highly regarded in the field, are often
incompetent, neglectful or just plain sloppy, in their
investigations. Surely it is a good thing if we know this?

Jenny further comments:

>>Provided he reports only documented facts then I will not
>>object, since I have nothing to hide. But if he strays beyond
>>that remit then I will, of course, not just stand idly by.

To which Burns replies:

>Yes why don't you, and Clarke and Roberts sue me then? After all
>the way you have written this piece you would think that you
>could have at least pulled up one fact that is not correct.

I would hope that by now we have all learned the folly of
ufologists threatening to sue other ufologists. No one benefits
but the legal leeches.


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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             [SK] Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:59:58 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 09:49:26 -0500
Subject: [SK] Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Colvin


From: Peter Huston <phuston@capital.net>
  To: skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 01:10:54 -0500
Subj: FWD [forteana] Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?


>I think the problem with debunking is that it's kind of sterile.
>You sit there waiting for the next goofy thing to come along and
>already know that, whatever it is, you're going to debunk it or
>try to debunk it and if you can't debunk it then everyone
>associated with it is a liar. (My only real complaint about Phil
>Klass is that he did this with Socorro.) You end up totally
>dependent on people that must be either deluded, idiotic or
>trying to pull a fast one and ultimately, how do you build on
>debunking?

>Robert Schneck


I agree with this but I think that skeptics sometimes tend to be
too quick to debunk. Often it's not really necessary for what we
do.

Let me explain please.

We have a maxim that "The burden of proof lies on the believer."
And this is also a maxim in science. A scientist, generally, is
expected to defend his or her thesis from the critics, who,
inevitably, will question their theory.

By contrast, pseudo-scientist often tend to cry "Prove me
wrong." Sometimes with a controversial or well publicized theory
this necessary perhaps. But usually few people really are paying
that much attention anyway.

For instance, few astronomers or other scientists take the
findings of most Ufologists seriously. (Ironically, few people
take Ufologists as seriously as skeptics.) We, as skeptics, do
not have an obligation to solve every single Ufo sighting that
comes along. And when we try, sometimes we muddle the situation
further. i.e. I've seen three different solvings of the Travis
Walton case, and a few others of Whitley Streiber's case. They
tend to contradict each other. Nevertheless, the bottom line is
that in neither case can anyone, to the best of my knowledge,
prove the claimants  didn't just make it up out of nothing.
There's been an attempt by skeptics to prove something that
cannot be proven. To a large extent these cases are unsolveable
(which is a completely different thing to say than to simply
assume that they are as claimed by the claimant.)

Nevertheless, I think that if a spaceship from another world
were to crash on the white house lawn tomorrow, scientists
worldwide would be struggling to jump in line to study the
wreckage anyway they could. By contrast, most UFO claims just
get ignored by the mainstream scientists.

Earlier I questioned whether Joe Nickell was really a competent
investigator or not. The truth is it's very difficult to judge
the value of his work as it's very difficult to judge if he came
to the correct conclusion or merely one that sounds plausible.
As I stated I've two of his case books on my shelf, and in those
most cases he "solves" are of the sort that cannot be solved and
then double-checked for accuracy. One of the few, if not the
only one, that could be double checked was "solved" incorrectly.

Peter Huston

P.S. One could therefore argue that calling him "one of the
world's finest and most prolific investigators of the
paranormal" is a faith based claim, not a fact based claim, but
it would be pretty snotty and tacky to point that out.

:-)

P.P.S. Becoming constructive again, I think one good rule of
thumb is to check the level of detail among believers and
compare it to the level of proof. i.e. No one can prove that
UFOs are spaceships. Yet believers can tell you about how they
come from the Pleiades and share the details of the Greys secret
plans for the future of all mankind.

Peter Huston


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com







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              At 84 Original 'Abductee' Still Wants To Believe

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 05:19:28 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 10:01:00 -0500
Subject: At 84 Original 'Abductee' Still Wants To Believe


Source: The Globe & Mail - Toronto

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20031220/TAKEN20/TPS
cience/

Saturday, December 20, 2003 - Page F8

At 84, original 'abductee' still wants to believe

By Bram Eisenthal


PORTSMOUTH, N.H -- Betty Hill sits in her living room, an
inquisitive, highly engaging woman of 84. Surrounded by the
mementos and clutter of a lifetime that is waning as the cancer
afflicting her progresses, she is serene, even as she reflects
on her role in one of the strangest events of the 1960s, one
that helped spawn a mass cult phenomenon.

Her petite frame initially takes one by surprise. By reputation
alone, you would think that she would be more physically
imposing.

You could say Betty and Barney Hill's last meal - at least, the
last while they still led normal lives - was eaten in Montreal,
one of their favourite cities. The Portsmouth, N.H., couple were
already fairly unusual: He was black and she was white, at the
dawn of the racially explosive decade, when they were on their
way back from a short vacation in Niagara Falls.

But at 11 p.m. on Sept. 19, 1961, the Hills were on Route 3,
south of Lancaster, N.H., when the best-documented case in UFO
history began: There was a puzzling object in the sky. Mr. Hill
thought that it was a satellite or star initially, but its
erratic movement brought a plane to mind. They were alone on a
deserted road, approaching the enormous silhouetted shape of
Cannon Mountain, when the object seemed to be heading straight
for them.

After that night, anxiety plagued the Hills. Both experienced
nightmares. Mr. Hill developed chronic ulcers. And neither could
account for a disturbing sense that something otherworldly had
happened, and why two full hours of their journey were
unaccounted for. It was only two years later that the story
emerged, under hypnosis monitored by respected Boston
psychiatrist Benjamin Simon: The Hills had been stopped by a
group of aliens on a side road, taken aboard their craft,
experimented upon and released unharmed.

Though Mr. Hill died in 1969, Betty Hill has actively discussed
the incident in the media and at conventions across North
America ever since. "They were under five feet tall," Mrs. Hill
says of the aliens. "They look more like us, like actual people,
than weirdoes. The main difference is that their eyes are huge,
and they have thin noses and thin lips. The leader spoke
English, rather than using telepathy, as they are often
portrayed."

Why, then, were the couple abducted? "They grabbed us to see if
we were similar to them," Mrs. Hill says. "I can understand why
they were interested in us physically. I don't hold that against
them, to this day."

She adds that the aliens were particularly interested in the
lanky Mr. Hill's bone structure, while they performed a painful
procedure on her, similar to one that would not be done on Earth
for another eight years - an amniocentesis. They were also, she
reported during the psychological sessions, interested in the
structure and colour of her skin.

Mrs. Hill is certain that something extraordinary happened to
her and her husband 42 years ago, a view Dr. Simon came to share
after their sessions. His findings appeared in John G. Fuller's
1966 book The Interrupted Journey: Two Lost Hours Aboard A
Flying Saucer.

Their experience was also the subject of a 1975 movie of the
week, The UFO Incident, starring James Earl Jones and Estelle
Parsons. "The movie was quite accurate and I thought the actors
did a good job portraying us," Mrs. Hill says. "The producers
had a big problem with their portrayals of the aliens, though.
They really do look more like us."

Though it's easy to dismiss Betty and Barney Hill as crackpots
or publicity hounds, sitting with the humble, keen-minded Mrs.
Hill might persuade you otherwise.

Stanton Friedman, the New Jersey-born nuclear physicist and UFO
lecturer who has been dubbed the Father of Roswell, knows Mrs.
Hill well. "First, the outstanding professional background of
Dr. Simon, who kept a very tight rein on John Fuller, certainly
lent legitimacy. He was a world-class expert on the use of
medical regressive hypnosis to help World War II veterans make
their way through traumatic experiences. No one would call him a
nut," says Dr. Friedman, who now calls Fredericton his home
base.

Mrs. Hill came from an old New England family (the Dows, as in
Dow Jones, dating back to the 17th century), was a college-
educated supervisor in the New Hampshire Welfare Department, and
was "respected and active in her community." Mr. Hill sat on the
state governor's Civil Rights Commission.

"Dr. Simon's work unlocking the memory took care of Barney's
ulcer problem when medication could not," Dr. Friedman says.
"They did not seek publicity, but were forced into the public
arena when a Boston Herald article came out, without their
knowledge. Add to that the fact there were physical marks on
Betty's dress, warts on Barney's groin, and the extraordinary
emotionalism of their sessions with Dr. Simon. . . .

"This was definitely a pioneering case," he adds. "The publicity
... helped other abductees to have the courage to seek help in
understanding their own missing-time experiences."

The Hills were also administered lie-detector tests by lawyer F.
Lee Bailey, which they passed with flying colours. Mrs. Hill
points out that the object that confronted them that evening was
also tracked by nearby Pease Airforce Base. And then, says Dr.
Friedman, there was the alien leader's star map that Mrs. Hill
reproduced under posthypnotic suggestion, which portrayed Zeta
Reticuli 1 and 2, years before they were charted by amateur
astronomers and confirmed by the Hipparchos satellite.

Were Betty and Barney Hill the victims of some sort of hysteria,
or were they indeed abducted for two hours by alien visitors
from another solar system? Whatever the truth is, Mrs. Hill
remains convinced that we are not alone and, what's more, "that
our government leaders have known about these UFO contacts for
decades."

Mrs. Hill's cancer was originally confined to her stomach about
15 years ago, and she has done well battling the affliction. By
last month, however, it had spread to her lung. Still, she says,
"I'm feeling pretty good."

Asked what her alien encounter taught her, Mrs. Hill's response
is striking: "They've proven to me that God is universal."

No matter what you believe, that's a giant leap of faith for
mankind.









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   Dec > Dec 20

                 Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:35:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 10:06:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:16:40 +0000
>Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts

>>From: Max Burns <max.burns@ntlworld.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:30:14 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts

>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:55:18 -0000
>>>Subject: Randles On Clarke & Roberts

>I have snipped all the material in which Burns pursues his
>ludicrous arguments that Dave Clark and Andy Roberts
>(particularly the latter) are the agents of the devil and/or the
>British Government. In promoting this view, he urges us to read
>his article in Notes From the Borderland. I would urge anyone
>who wishes, to do so, where they will simply find a string of
>unsupported allegations - research by proclamation, to coin a
>phrase.

>However, I am more interested in the following exchange. Jenny
>Randles comments:

>>>Was I aware that Andy had been engaged in hoaxing? He has often
>>>made dark hints about this, but I have never seen any evidence
>>>of such activities, nor has Andy ever privately told me what he
>>>might have been up to.

>>>I learned of the Blue Hare saga much like others did but I am no
>>>wiser than anyone else as to the details or motives.

>>>How do I view experimental hoaxing? I think it can have a useful
>>>role to play in UFO investigation - revealing data about
>>>observation, perception, and reporting mechanisms - all vital to
>>>our study. There have been some impressive examples in the past
>>>(eg the Cradle Hill hoax photo test).

>To which Burns replies:

>>Surely people who take part in experiments usually have prior
>>notice that they are taking part. Jenny it was wrong and you
>>know it.

>Well, no, Max. If you are performing an experiment to see how
>people react to, describe and report unusual and unexpected
>visual stimuli it is important that they are not warned in
>advance that they are taking part in an experiment!

<snip>

That's just pure and unadulterated barnyard flapdoodle (further
infested by blundering bugs), Mr. Rimmer (...You really should
get your hologram re-charged!).

This is no controlled scientific experiment by balanced
researchers in the pursuit of aggregate truth... sir, for all
your unctuous efforts to make a silk purse out of a sows ear!

This is, instead, a deliberate program of disqualifying
subterfuge perpetrated by ax-grinding persons... to keep a
ufological giggle factor high, a ufological confidence level
low, and a mainstream Status Quo on an, undeserving, even keel!

These are not ufological saints, sir, they are intellectual
sinners, enemies of science and rationality, and should be run
out of town on a ufological rail! Lay down with the dogs and
come up with their fleas, Mr. Rimmer!

...And I'm very disappointed in _you_, Ms. Randles, which
shouldn't necessarily matter to you, but that's a report from
the field.....


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $450.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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   Dec > Dec 20

                Re: At 84 Original 'Abductee' Still Wants To

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 10:30:16 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 11:15:03 -0500
Subject: Re: At 84 Original 'Abductee' Still Wants To


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 05:19:28 -0800
>Subject: At 84 Original 'Abductee' Still Wants To Believe

>Source: The Globe &Mail - Toronto

>http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20031220/TAKEN20/TP
>Science/

>Saturday, December 20, 2003 - Page F8

>At 84, original 'abductee' still wants to believe

>By Bram Eisenthal

<snip>

Thanks for the article Frank Warren!

Although I'm not one for 'hypnotic regression' to extrapolate
suppressed memories, Dr. Simon's reputation is strong enough to
look at what he'd done and say he did a great job.

Add to that the corroborative data from radar, star map,
physical traces we can say that something did indeed happen to
the Hills.

I don't recall any 'message from beyond' like you get with some
abduction cases and that's good. Just a few snippets of data
that Mrs. Hill gave in the book.

The fear factor too lends to me much credibility. If something
like that had happened to me, you can bet your last dollar I'd
be screaming on tape too.

I remember as a kid seeing that magazine article. It was the
most eerie moment I can remember of that era far more than the
assassinations of the same.

Somehow people 'knew' what had happened. It was too real for
them and as a youngster I noticed quickly how this subject took
precedence over everything else at the time, even the war in
Vietnam and Soviet threat.

It was 'kinjite' ( secret, forbidden, non spoken ) until that
article came out. Hard bit WWII and Korean War and WWI vets
would whisper about it and then New Mexico and crashed saucers
and New Paltz, NY would come up.

Also the stories from upstate NY about the 'little bald men who
live underground'.

I knew there was something going on and all I had to do to avoid
a scolding in those days was to just say " What about flying
saucers?" and it was like having a force field go up. It was the
only subject every adult regardless of race, religion, political
bend was scared stiff of.

It's been a long time since the Hill's experiences came to light
and we're still digging for answers. Yet what was worse? The
abduction or the treatment they received from their own species
when their story came to the fore?

The adventure continues.....


Best,

Greg








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   Dec > Dec 21

                  Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:35:50 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:18:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts - Rimmer


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:35:34 -0600
>Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:16:40 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts

>>I have snipped all the material in which Burns pursues his
>>ludicrous arguments that Dave Clark and Andy Roberts
>>(particularly the latter) are the agents of the devil and/or the
>>British Government. In promoting this view, he urges us to read
>>his article in Notes From the Borderland. I would urge anyone
>>who wishes, to do so, where they will simply find a string of
>>unsupported allegations - research by proclamation, to coin a
>>phrase.

>>However, I am more interested in the following exchange. Jenny
>>Randles comments:

>>>>Was I aware that Andy had been engaged in hoaxing? He has often
>>>>made dark hints about this, but I have never seen any evidence
>>>>of such activities, nor has Andy ever privately told me what he
>>>>might have been up to.

>>>>I learned of the Blue Hare saga much like others did but I am no
>>>>wiser than anyone else as to the details or motives.
>
>>>>How do I view experimental hoaxing? I think it can have a useful
>>>>role to play in UFO investigation - revealing data about
>>>>observation, perception, and reporting mechanisms - all vital to
>>>>our study. There have been some impressive examples in the past
>>>>(eg the Cradle Hill hoax photo test).

>>To which Burns replies:

>>>Surely people who take part in experiments usually have prior
>>>notice that they are taking part. Jenny it was wrong and you
>>>know it.

To which I replied:

>>Well, no, Max. If you are performing an experiment to see how
>>people react to, describe and report unusual and unexpected
>>visual stimuli it is important that they are not warned in
>>advance that they are taking part in an experiment!

><snip>

>That's just pure and unadulterated barnyard flapdoodle (further
>infested by blundering bugs), Mr. Rimmer (...You really should
>get your hologram re-charged!).

Mr Lehmberg's literary style has long ago ascended above the
rarified heights reached by the post-modern lucibartions of
Colin Bennett. Unfortunately this often gets in the way of
discerning his meaning.

However ...

>This is no controlled scientific experiment by balanced
>researchers in the pursuit of aggregate truth... sir, for all
>your unctuous efforts to make a silk purse out of a sows ear!

If you were to read the articles on the Magonia website to which
I referred, you will see that the Warminster photographic hoax
was indeed a controlled scientific experiment.

>This is, instead, a deliberate program of disqualifying
>subterfuge perpetrated by ax-grinding persons... to keep a
>ufological giggle factor high, a ufological confidence level
>low, and a mainstream Status Quo on an, undeserving, even keel!

The ufological giggle factor (such a splendid phrase) is kept
high by nonsense such as expressed in the above paragraph, and
by biased, ineffectual and slapdash researchers whose work needs
to be evaluated critically. One of the ways of doing this is
through controlled experiments such as was performed at
Warminster.

>These are not ufological saints, sir, they are intellectual
>sinners, enemies of science and rationality, and should be run
>out of town on a ufological rail! Lay down with the dogs and
>come up with their fleas, Mr. Rimmer!

Science and rationality is progressed through experiment and
observation.

>...And I'm very disappointed in _you_, Ms. Randles, which
>shouldn't necessarily matter to you, but that's a report from
>the field.....

By the way, I must apologise to those defenders of the English
language who from time to time visit this List, for my repeated
use of the plural "stimuli" when I should have written
"stimulus" in a previous post. My only excuse is that, due to
the time difference, I tend to write my posts late at night
after a hard day terrorising library users.

For those who need them, here are some [sic]s to add as
appropriate:

[sic], [sic], [sic], [sic].

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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   Dec > Dec 21

                Re: At 84 Original 'Abductee' Still Wants To

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:54:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:30:55 -0500
Subject: Re: At 84 Original 'Abductee' Still Wants To



>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 10:30:16 EST
>Subject: Re: At 84 Original 'Abductee' Still Wants To


>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 05:19:28 -0800
>>Subject: At 84 Original 'Abductee' Still Wants To Believe

>>Source: The Globe &Mail - Toronto

>>http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20031220/TAKEN20/T
P>Science/

>>Saturday, December 20, 2003 - Page F8

>>At 84, original 'abductee' still wants to believe

>>By Bram Eisenthal

<snip>

>Thanks for the article Frank Warren!

<snip>

>It's been a long time since the Hill's experiences came to light
>and we're still digging for answers. Yet what was worse? The
>abduction or the treatment they received from their own species
>when their story came to the fore?

>The adventure continues.....


Hi Greg and Frank,

Bram Eisenthal himself is a sympathetic ear where the UFO
phenomenon is concerned. He interviewed Chris Styles and myself
a couple of years ago about the Shag Harbour episode and was
extremely accurate in the resultant article. I type this as I
listen to Terry Hansen and EBK on SDI re "The Missing Times" and
the mainstream media's reluctance to print UFO stories.

Best,

Don Ledger









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   Dec > Dec 21

                           An Astounding Admission

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 00:46:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:35:42 -0500
Subject: An Astounding Admission


>From: Cap. Alejandro Franz <alfafox@prodigy.net.mx>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 05:45:18 -0700
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:21:46 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>From: Captain Alejandro Franz <alfafox@Prodigy.net.mx>
>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:41:33 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>I can provide some information about this case, another one of
>>>many J. Maussan hoaxes. The Aeromexico DC9 flight 129 from
>>>Guadalajara to Mexico's City Intl. Airport that supposedly had a
>>>collision with a UFO when approaching runway 05 right at
>>>Mexico's Intl. Airport on july 1994.


Hi John and Errol,

Re. the discussion on 'Strange Days... Indeed', last night
concerning Cap. Alejandro Franz's allegations  - about the
veracity of the collision of Aeromexico DC9 flight 129 from
Guadalajara to Mexico's City Intl. Airport with a UFO - I think
it important to note Captain Franz's following statement:


"I want you to know that my wife and I had a close encounter in
1974 on a night car trip and both of us saw aliens and 5 to 6
hours of time are missing. I want to clarify this before you get
the wrong picture of me regarding my intentions about the work I
have done about multiple hoaxes related to J. Maussan. I can't
keep quiet anymore and I know what will come ahead,  my truth is
before those who use the UFO arena to make money and circus
denigrating the tedious and hard work of many honest and serious
investigators."


This quite frankly is an astounding admission by an airline
pilot. I feel must be taken into consideration if it is being
suggested that this man is a UFO debunker. His claim is of an
area that is right up your alley John.

Consider what he points out from A to H and then there is the
information on his web site.

My take,

Best,

Don Ledger










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   Dec > Dec 21

             (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:05:51 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:44:32 -0500
Subject: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Colvin



Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 16:01:02 -0700
From: James J. Lippard <lippard-skeptic@discord.org>
  To: skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu
Subj: FWD (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

I'm going to trim this down quite a bit, as it looks like we are
getting past most of the areas where we were talking past each
other, and identifying what remains as either common ground or
areas of possibly unresolvable disagreement. Areas where I have
removed text, I will identify with "[...]".



>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:57:16 -0600
>Subject: Re: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>Jim,

[...]

Lippard wrote:
>>Then I stand corrected on the circulation, but remain correct
>>that it has had broader circulation than Skeptical Inquirer and
>>that it, unlike SI, pays its authors. (I also note that Fate
>>has always contained substantial amounts of advertising, while
>>Skeptical Inquirer contains none.)

Jerry responded that Fate's current circulation is quite small,
Llewellyn dumped it for being a money-losing endeavor, it has
always paid contributors very poorly (leading to their
complaints), and no one got rich writing for Fate. Fortean Times
also pays, but just barely. He then wrote:

Clark:
>Except in the imagination of debunkers, nobody got rich writing
>for Fate (or, for that matter, publishing it). Fate's tiny
>payments, it is true, were higher than those for other pro-
>anomaly/paranormal publications, which were and are largely
>nonexistent. Fortean Times pays, but just barely.

>This is an amazingly silly argument which Lippard, who
>ought to know better, is making. Let us hope it will expire
>here out of sheer boredom.

Jerry, you don't identify just what is the "amazingly silly
argument" that I'm making. If you look at what I actually said,
above, I said that Fate paid contributors while Skeptical
Inquirer never has. I also said that Fate has had advertisers
(also true of Fortean Times), while Skeptical Inquirer has not.
You offer nothing to disagree with what I've said - it would be
difficult to do so, since what I've said is accurate - so you
must be disagreeing with some inferred argument or conclusion
which neither of us has made explicit.

My guess is that you are taking what I said to be an argument
that Fate, as a publication, is wealthier than Skeptical
Inquirer. I didn't say that, and given the accuracy of what
you've said, it's not an argument I would make.

What I would argue and maintain is that the typical writer for
Skeptical Inquirer - Joe Skeptic - gets less financial return for
such work than the typical writer for Fate, and that Skeptical
Inquirer depends, for its survival, on either higher circulation
numbers or external subsidies. Given what you say about Fate
today, I would conclude that SI does better on both counts today
than Fate, though there have been times in the past where Fate's
circulation was substantially higher than SI's has ever been.

So I don't think there is any disagreement on this point.

[...]

Clark:
>>>Nobody is arguing that all, or even most, skeptics are rich,
>>>obviously an absurd proposition. But to say that money

Lippard:
>>I took you to be saying something along those lines when you
>>wrote that there was money to be made as a professional skeptic.

Clark:
>Yes, some professional skeptics have done pretty well
>financially. There are some real success stories here, e.g.,
>Kurtz, Randi, Sherman, and some others. I wish the same could be
>said for some of their counterparts on the open-minded end of
>anomaly inquiry. I'd be happy to compare my income with that of
>any of the above-mentioned.

I think you mean Shermer, rather than Sherman, though I don't
know how financially successful he has been - the Skeptics
Society still operates out of his home, and Skeptic magazine
still seems to have trouble with its publication schedule (e.g.,
the last two quarterly issues of 2003 have not yet been
published).

I don't see anything to disagree with here, though I will note
that for the vast majority of skeptics, including leaders of
skeptical organizations and those published in skeptical
publications and chapters of skeptical books, their skeptical
work is a net expense, not a source of income. For example, I've
been published in skeptical magazines and books, but have never
been paid a cent for that work.

And even for those who have published skeptical books, it is
only those who have found mainstream publishers who have earned
any serious money. I suspect royalties for many skeptical books
are paid in the low double-digits.

Lippard:
>>Likewise, to deny that money doesn't flow to the promotion of
>>the paranormal and anomalies is an attempt to deny the obvious.

Clark:
>Yes, in a trickle, which only in debunking rhetoric is a mighty
>flood.

I won't disagree that there has been bogus rhetoric from
skeptics, such as the common refrain from CSICOP of the "rising
tide of irrationality." I agree with Michael Sofka's commentary
on that topic in excellent his "Myths of Skepticism" piece:

http://www.rpi.edu/~sofkam/papers/skeptik.html

[...]

Lippard:
>>Sagan is a science popularizer who got famous because of Cosmos
>>- it wasn't debunking that made him rich. He was able to make
>>money on works that contained debunking material because his
>>name sold books, not because people love to give money to
>>skeptics.

Clark:
>People sure seemed to like reading Sagan's debunking, which
>seemed integral to any of his books that I ever read. No pro-UFO
>or-anomaly writer has ever seen sales figures like Sagan's. I
>don't begrudge the success of any honest writer, but I do object
>to sanctimonious claims about one side's supposedly superior
>virtue and the other's allegedly superior income.

I am skeptical that it is debunking per se that attracts people
to Sagan's work.

Lippard:
>>Nova is also a science popularization show. The debunking is
>>incidental, not its raison d'etre.

Clark:
>Its debunking certainly hasn't hurt it, has it? How long has
>that show been going anyway? Can anyone think of a pro-anomaly/
>paranormal show - shown, moreover, on an elite network and not
>on a cheesy, low-budget cable outlet - that has lasted, say,
>one-tenth as long? Nova is a fine show and deserves its success,
>but it shows the sort of bias elite media consistently display
>toward received (negative), as opposed to dissenting (positive),
>opinion on anomalies and the paranormal. This is the sort of
>thing you don't hear about in debunking rhetoric, but it is at
>the core of society's treatment of these issues in general.

We agree that Nova is a quality show. I agree that it is nearly
always critical of anomalistic claims, but I think we disagree
about the cause. You attribute it to an "elite media bias." I
attribute it to where the weight of the evidence lies. If an
anomalistic claim is substantiated to the point of controversy
within the halls of science, it ends up getting represented
quite differently on a show like Nova.

[...]

Lippard:
>>I think your view of the paranormal and anomalies is oddly
>>narrow, completely omitting (for another example) the multi-
>>billion dollar field of alternative medicine, which even has
>>substantial U.S. government funding these days.

Clark:
>I wasn't aware that alternative medicine is "paranormal". Again,
>this goes to your definition of anomalies and the paranormal as
>"anything I don't like."

Most alternative medicine is not paranormal, but certainly makes
anomalistic claims. Some is explicitly paranormal (for example,
any alternative medicine claims made in terms of chi, life
force, mentally induced powers of healing, etc.).

Jerry, you have repeatedly attributed a view to me of anomalies
and the paranormal as "anything I don't like." That is
inaccurate and unfair - on the contrary, I am *fascinated* by
such claims, and actively seek out information on those topics,
and have done so since my childhood. That's why I read _Fortean
Times_, and why I used to subscribe to the _Journal of
Scientific Exploration_ and the _Journal of Parapsychology_ (I
dropped the latter two due to lack of time and the priciness of
subscriptions).

I find it quite ironic that, in order to respond to my
characterization of your definitions of "paranormal and
anomalies" as far too narrow, you accuse me of broadening my
definition in order to encompass a larger sphere of "things I
don't like." The fact of the matter is that I have a broader
sphere of "things I am interested in" which involve claims
contrary to current scientific theory.

I still think your view is too narrow.

Clark:
>>>Anybody who's written a book arguing a positive view of the UFO
>>>phenomenon (or cryptozoology, a secondary interest of mine), as
>>>I have, knows beyond any doubt whatever what the sales figures
>>>are. I am unaware of any book of scientific parapsychology that
>>>has been a great financial success in decades. Anyone who argues
>>>otherwise is simply insulting both my intelligence and my
>>>eyesight.

Lippard:
>>I agree with this statement, but again, I think you are oddly
>>narrowing what you are describing in order to make your argument
>>work. It does work when you narrow it that way, but that's
>>certainly not the argument I took you to be making earlier.

Actually, to potentially disagree with myself - how did these
books fare?

 Dean Radin, The Conscious Universe, 1997, Harper San Francisco
  (hardcover; Amazon.com sales rank 25,051 hb)
 Michael L. Schmicker, Best Evidence, 2nd ed., 2002, Writer's Club Press
  (paperback; Amazon.com sales rank 59,081 pb)
 Gary E. R. Schwartz, The Afterlife Experiments, 2002, Atria Books
  (hardcover and paperback editions; Amazon.com sales rank 61,557 hb,
53,750 pb)
 Richard S. Broughton, Parapsychology: The Controversial Science, 1992,
Ballantine
  (hardcover and paperback editions; Amazon.com sales rank 2,210,317 hb,
152,077 pb)

A little searching at Amazon.com leads me to believe that there
is quite a market for this kind of work.

Comparison of a few skeptical works:

 James Randi, Flim-Flam!, 1988, Prometheus: Amazon.com sales rank 26,733 pb
 Ray Hyman, The Elusive Quarry, 1989, Prometheus: Amazon.com sales rank
530,137 hb
 James Alcock, Psi Wars, 2003, Imprint Academic: Amazon.com sales rank 921,286
 Joe Nickell, ed., Psychic Sleuths, 1994, Prometheus: Amazon.com sales rank
483,662 hb

Clark:
>Then you misread me and are not familiar with my work (though I
>do appreciate your kind review of my UFO Encyclopedia). In
>anything that I have ever written, I have made quite clear,
>following the example of - I should think - any thoughtful
>observer and echoing Bauer, Truzzi, et al., that we are talking
>about ufology, cryptozoology, and parapsychology as the focus of
>serious anomaly inquiry and discussion. Instead, you seem to
>want to talk about alternative medicine, astrology, creationism,
>and God knows what all else.

I am certainly only familiar with a subset of your work, and I
may also have come into this discussion in the middle. (The
first message of yours I responded to was the first I read.)

I think you are mistaken in the view you attribute to Henry
Bauer and Marcello Truzzi, since both have frequently ventured
beyond those three topics (e.g., Bauer on Velikovsky and cold
fusion, Truzzi on numerous topics including astrology, at least
of the Gauquelin "cosmobiology" variety, which filled several
issues of the _Zetetic Scholar_).

I continue to disagree with you about what counts as "serious."

In my opinion, what distinguishes serious from nonserious is not
the subject matter of exploration, but the methodology of the
explorers.

Lippard:
>>If you look at what sells better, arguments for the
>>paranormal/anomalies/strange and unusual, or arguments against, there
>>is no question that the former sells better than the latter. If you
>>keep the latter open to the entire scope of subjects covered by
>>CSICOP, but narrow the former to academic-style arguments within the
>>specific fields of parapsychology, UFOlogy, and cryptozoology, then
>>I would agree with you.

Clark:
>I confess that I really don't understand what you're talking
>about. Perhaps your true target is intellectual or
>pseudo-intellectual heresy in general. I can't speak to that, at
>least in a conversation ostensibly about anomalies and the
>paranormal.

Again, you have unnecessarily and inaccurately polarized the
discussion with your phrasing ("true target").

Perhaps it is my philosophical and cognitive science background,
but yes, I do have an interest in "heresy" even beyond
paranormal and scientific anomaly claims. Of special interest to
me is what are the social and psychological motivators to
divergent views, and to resistance to correction - including
within groups such as skeptical organizations.

But I'm not "out to get" people who disagree with me - I'm
interested in understanding and gaining knowledge.

[...]

Clark:
>Anti-anomaly authors have a much better shot at getting comparable
>skeptical manuscripts in print, via Prometheus. I don't
>object to that; I'm all in favor of books and the circulation of
>ideas. I do wish, however, that there were enough money in
>anomalistics to support a pro-anomaly Prometheus.

I am skeptical of your first sentence. My perusing at Amazon.com
does not seem to support the claim.

[...]

Clark:
>Overwhelmingly, pro-paranormal books don't get published by
>mainsteam imprints. That may have been true several decades ago
>(e.g., the 1970s), but today most titles, from serious to silly,
>are released under the imprint of very small houses or are self-
>published. Except for the occasional title by a media star such
>as psychic John Edward, mainstream houses have little interest
>in paranormal/ anomaly titles these days and have not had any
>such interest for some time. The reason is that they don't sell.

Again, I think the evidence on Amazon.com is not supportive of
your argument, though I must admit I've not seen sufficient
empirical evidence to be sure one way or the other. This is,
however, something amenable to empirical investigation.

[...]

>>CSICOP's being wealthier than CUFOS is but a single point
>>comparison. Again, I think you've narrowed the comparison.

>Which serious, pro-anomaly research group - say the open-minded
>equivalent of CSICOP - is as wealthy as CSICOP? I have never
>heard of one, and it is surely significant that you don't
>mention one. That is because, of course, no such group exists.

Again, I think the correct comparison is in the aggregate rather
than individual group to individual group. Even if CSICOP were
the wealthiest single organization in the field (which it may
be), that doesn't mean that skeptics are better funded than
promoters of anomalies overall.

Do you happen to know the budget of Robert Bigelow's National
Institute for Discovery Science? Unfortunately, it is a for-
profit, so its finances are not open to the public.

http://www.nidsci.org/

Bigelow is the billionaire owner of Budget Suites of America,
and his bio-page on the NIDS website says that he and his wife
have donated and pledged just under $7 million to UNLV to endow
the Bigelow Chair of Consciousness Studies, the Robert L.
Bigelow Physics Building, and the Rod L. Bigelow College of
Health Sciences.

The following Wired magazine article suggests that NIDS is at
least in the CSICOP ballpark (or has been as recently as 2000):

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.01/rocketman.html

I'm not aware of any billionaires providing funding to skeptical
organizations, though perhaps people like George Soros, Warren
Buffett, Bill Gates, and Paul Allen have done so.

Clark:
>>>Anyway, as anyone who reads it knows, FT carries a notable
>>>amount of skeptical material. Its views of UFOs, for one
>>>example, are nothing that would should cause any true- believing
>>>CSICOPer any discomfort. Unhappy with FT's treatment of many
>>>questions, one writer - Colin Bennett - has even started what he
>>>calls the "alternative Fortean Times."

Lippard:
>>OK, so Fortean Times doesn't count because it is actually a
>>skeptical magazine. Sorry, I think that is ludicrous.

Clark:
>Oh, come on. Give us a break. I said, quite accurately, that FT
>carries a fair amount of skeptical material. So, by the way, did

And you also spoke of "its views of UFOs" being skeptical, as
though the magazine has an official position on the subject.

>Fate when I worked there. We may safely assume that such
>openness to contrary points of view is not reflected in
>Skeptical Inquirer's pages.

While Skeptical Inquirer does occasional publish pro-paranormal
or pro-anomaly views, these are almost always restricted to the
letters to the editor column or the "Forum" section. Agreed - SI
*does* have an official position, despite CSICOP's claims of not
taking an a priori position on claims of the paranormal.

Lippard:
>>Fortean Times does publish skeptical views - in fact, it seems
>>remarkably open to a diversity of viewpoints, which is one of
>>the things I really like about that magazine. But it publishes a
>>wealth of material in every issue that are exactly the sorts of
>>things CSICOP debunks. (In a recent talk to the Las Vegas
>>Humanists and Las Vegas Skeptics on "What Skeptics Can Learn
>>From Forteans," I recommended FT as a valuable source of
>>research and investigation topics.)

>>Bennett's complaint strikes me as absurd. FT publishes multiple
>>views on UFOs: extradimensional beings, mythic folklore,
>>misidentifications, and your favored extraterrestrial spacecraft
>>view. The editors don't seem to have preference for any theory.

Clark:
>Wrong. FT has a definite slant, as quite a few readers have
>pointed out. I have every issue of the magazine - starting with
>the old The News back in the mid-1970s - and I speak with some
>authority here. It is, it is true, not nearly so rigid or one-
>sided as Skeptical Inquirer, but FT's skeptical slant on lots of
>things, and growingly so, reflects trends in British ufology and
>anomalistics of which you may not be aware.

Here again, we disagree. I agree that there have been a number
of readers make accusations about FT taking a slanted position
on one or another topic - and these are always in response to
particular articles those readers don't like. What they fail to
account for is that FT also publishes articles that take
opposing views.

I'm willing to be persuaded by actual empirical evidence that FT
has expressed a bias for or against a particular view, if you
can produce it. I know that I find people expressing theories I
find insufficiently supported in every issue, including on the
topic of UFOs.

>FT will presumably never be Skeptical Inquirer - presumably, I
>say - but it is hardly a slack-eyed, one-sided believers'
>magazine whose very existence is testimony to how much money
>there is to be had through the exploitation of popular
>credulity.

I agree there, as well. That description would better fit the
Weekly World News (though I suspect the vast majority of its
readers are in on the joke).

[...]

Lippard:
>>I think you are drawing a completely bogus distinction, Jerry.
>>Why is it that "serious" anomalies research can only be done in
>>ufology, parapsychology, and cryptozoology? I think you are
>>being incredibly narrow-minded. The creationists (especially the
>>current intelligent design creationists) seem to me to have just
>>as much a claim to legitimacy as these three fields - they are
>>supported by people with real Ph.Ds, some of whom have published
>>real peer-reviewed scientific papers and books (e.g., Michael
>>Behe (though technically he's not a creationist), William
>>Dembski, Jonathan Wells).

>And speaking of bogus distinctions, Jim: If you believe
>creationism is a paranormal/anomalous research project, and not
>a religiously based enterprise (whatever its scientific
>trappings, which - contrary to the spirit of scientific inquiry
>- leave no room for meaningful dissent from Genesis), then we
>are not dwelling in the same universe. Again, your definition of
>anomalies and the paranormal looks very much like "anything I
>don't like."

I would agree that creationists are religiously motivated, but I
don't think motivations make the distinction between what is
"serious" and what is not in anomalies research. Again, I think
it is the methodology. Historically, there have been
creationists using proper scientific methodology - most of them
end up becoming evolutionists (there are a number of examples in
Ronald L. Numbers' excellent book _The Creationists_), but some
do not. E.g., Stephen Jay Gould's former student Kurt Wise (M.S.
Univ. of Chicago, Ph.D. Harvard).

Lippard:
>>And why do you leave out alternative medicine? That's clearly on
>>the fringes of mainstream science, yet incredibly well-funded,
>>and occasionally bits of it make their way into the mainstream.

Clark:
>Why in the world is alternative medicine of relevance here? I am
>completely at a loss to understand why you keep bringing it into
>the discussion. There are _all kinds_ of dissenting, alternative
>views on _all kinds_ of social, scientific, historical,
>political, religious, cultural, literary, esthetic, and other
>matters which are not a part of the serious discussion about
>anomalies and the paranormal.

Perhaps you should define your terms. I am using "anomaly" to
mean a datum or series of data that is surprising, unexpected,
or completely contrary to current scientific theories. I am
using "paranormal" to mean phenomena outside of the normal,
which are contrary to current scientific theories, usually
involving some claimed spiritual dimension of human beings,
though it can also involve currently unknown mechanisms of
transmission of energy or causation that presumably could be
incorporated into the normal and natural with appropriately
updated scientific theories. I take "anomalies" to be a broader
category than "the paranormal." "Anomalies" is a more neutral
term; "paranormal" carries metaphysical connotations with it.

Clark:
>Is it your view that _any_ unconventional, alternative opinion
>or enterprise is part of the vast money-making machine that
>comprises the anomalies/paranormal industry?

Hardly. I'm not making any conspiratorial claim about cogs in a
single organized machine.

Clark:
>If that's the case, why _not_ bring organized religion into the
>discussion - if you haven't already done so, via your
>creationist obsession? After all, religions make "paranormal"

My "creationist obsession"? More loaded terms, Jerry. I haven't
accused you of a "UFO obsession," but I would wager there's a
stronger case to be made for that appellation than the one
you're trying to saddle me with.

>claims (e.g., the Resurrection of Christ), and biblical
>archaeology, for example, investigates historical origins,
>sometimes consciously seeking to validate biblical claims.

A perfectly legitimate field of scientific study, by the way.

>Religious persons pray for healing or for changes in their
>circumstances or even in the physical world. Should we therefore

Another perfectly legitimate topic of investigation, on which
papers have been published in mainstream medical journals, as
well as in, e.g., the _Journal of Scientific Exploration_.

>judge, say, Christian doctrine a paranormal claim which ought to
>be discussed in the same breath as, for instance, laboratory
>experiments in psychokinesis, or analyses of UFO photos?

If it's based on factual claims, sure. Why not? The Society for
Scientific Exploration treats them that way, and I think they are
quite right to do so.

Clark:
>If your point, finally, is that paranormal organizations such as
>mainstream religious bodies have incomes that dwarf CSICOP's,
>then I guess I can't argue with that, and you've won the
>argument.

I don't think they need to enter the picture. BTW, I don't give
a damn about whether I win the argument or not. If you present
evidence that persuades me, I don't lose - I win because I've
learned something. I would hope that you would feel the same
way.

[...]

Clark (regarding Corliss' anomalies):
>The most potentially extraordinary of these anomalies have
>implications for ufology, cryptozoology, and parapsychology. The

I think that is entirely a subjective opinion, and one with
which I disagree.

>other anomalies generally concern arcane issues of interest (or
>even comprehension) to scientists and scholars in specific
>disciplines and are essentially the sorts of odd bits and pieces
>that at any given time lie outside any formal knowledge
>structure. There are also _politically_ explosive anomalies

And I think many of those can be "potentially extraordinary."
Perhaps I am just more in awe of the universe than you are, even
apart from anomalies?

>here, such as those bearing on the question of who the earliest
>Americans may have been.

>I am interested to see, though, that like the guy whose posting
>started this whole thing, you seem to have no trouble speaking
>of Corliss in the same context as people making far wilder
>claims (e.g., occultists and newspaper astrologers). I know you
>know the difference, but your definition, if that's even the
>word, seems, shall we say, nebulous and all over the place.

I don't believe I've made any mention of "occultists and
newspaper astrologers." You're putting words in my mouth. I did
mention astrology, but not newspaper astrologers.

[...]

Clark:
>Wrong. I think your definition is so broad as to be both
>unrecognizable and meaningless. Maybe, instead of identifying as
>the object of your disdain "anomalies and the paranormal," you
>would be better advised simply to identify it as "popular
>folklore." Then it could be whatever you want it to be, and you
>and I could be using our respective time to more productive ends
>than the one in which we are engaged here.

I've given my definitions more explicitly above. I don't think
they are "so broad as to be unrecognizable and meaningless," I
think they accord with how the words are most commonly used. I
would be interested in seeing your definitions.

Finally, you again have spoken of "the object of [my] disdain,"
which I think is unfair and inaccurate.

I don't think my time interacting with you has been wasted, and
I would be sad to hear if you felt that this was a waste of
time.

I would be interested in hearing your definitions of anomalies
and the paranormal, as well as your comment on the above and on
the separate piece I sent out about the fields of cryptozoology,
ufology, and parapsychology - not because I'm playing a game I
want to win, but because I think you are an intelligent and
informed person with views different from my own.

(And for anyone else reading, as Jerry mentioned, I have given a
positive review to his UFO Encyclopedia - I highly recommend it
for anyone interested in the subject of UFOs, as it exhibits a
breadth and depth of knowledge on the subject that I don't
believe exists in any comparable work. Certainly there are
entries skeptics will disagree with, but typically those are
also are the entries skeptics need to investigate more
thoroughly.)


Jim Lippard
lippard@discord.org
http://www.discord.org/
GPG Key ID: 0xF8D42CFE


"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress."
Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com








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   Dec > Dec 21

               Re: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? -

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:08:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:32:14 -0500
Subject: Re: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? -


Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 16:30:03 -0700
From: "James J. Lippard" <lippard-skeptic@discord.org>
 To: skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu
Subj: FWD (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?


One last point, which was almost implicitly made in my previous
response, but needs to be made explicitly:

If we are going to narrow the scope of our conversation to the
three fields of parapsychology, cryptozoology, and ufology, then
we need to account for the fact that CSICOP's scope is, in fact,
much broader than those three areas. For a true apples-to-
apples comparison of funding and reader interest, we need to
look *only* at the skeptical funding, pages, and books that
specifically address those topics.

My comparison of Amazon.com book sales was a start at such a
comparison, as I listed only parapsychology books and skeptical
books that (mostly) focused on parapsychology.

I think that such a comparison will find - overwhelmingly - that
there are far more funds devoted to nonskeptical treatments than
to skeptical treatments, in all three of the above cases, and
that that will prove to be true on each of the following
measures:

* Number of books published.
* Number of books sold.
* Pages of magazines and journals devoted to the subject.
* Quantity of research funding devoted to the subject.
* Quantity of promotional funding devoted to the subject.

I would be quite interested in any data suggesting the contrary.

(Below I quote only the piece of my previous response with the book
comparisons.)

>Dean Radin, The Conscious Universe, 1997, Harper San Francisco
>(hardcover; Amazon.com sales rank 25,051 hb)
>Michael L. Schmicker, Best Evidence, 2nd ed., 2002, Writer's Club Press
>(paperback; Amazon.com sales rank 59,081 pb)
>Gary E. R. Schwartz, The Afterlife Experiments, 2002, Atria Books
>(hardcover and paperback editions; Amazon.com sales rank 61,557 hb, 53,750 pb)
>Richard S. Broughton, Parapsychology: The Controversial Science, 1992, Ballanti
ne
>(hardcover and paperback editions; Amazon.com sales rank 2,210,317 hb, 152,077
pb)

>A little searching at Amazon.com leads me to believe that there
>is quite a market for this kind of work.

>Comparison of a few skeptical works:

>James Randi, Flim-Flam!, 1988, Prometheus: Amazon.com sales rank 26,733 pb
> Ray Hyman, The Elusive Quarry, 1989, Prometheus: Amazon.com sales rank 530,137
>James Alcock, Psi Wars, 2003, Imprint Academic: Amazon.com sales rank 921,286
>Joe Nickell, ed., Psychic Sleuths, 1994, Prometheus: Amazon.com sales rank 483,
662 hb

 -
Jim Lippard    lippard-skeptic@discord.org    http://www.discord.org/
GPG Key ID: 0xF8D42CFE


 -
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress."
Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin
Sierra Vista
Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 21

                Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:34:54 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:36:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:19:32 +0000
>Subject: Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:57:16 -0600
>>Subject: Re: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:55:57 -0700
>>>Subject: (SK) Re: sTARBABY & A New CSICOP Coverup?


>I also have read Fortean Times/The News since number one, and
>have felt that it has always adopted a sceptical attitude - as
>sceptical of conventional science as it is of anomalistics - and
>can't say that I have noticed any hardening of its viewpoint
>over the years.

Wrong.

>I'm intrigued by your comments on 'trends in British ufology and
>anomalistics', as I am also largely unaware of them. Perhaps you
>might elaborate on this?

Nope.

>>Fear of ridicule is surely one factor, as we know historically.
>>It stopped significant funding of a serious ufology group in the
>>1950s and, arguably, changed the course of the UFO controversy.
>>But that's a good question, and one for another time.


>>Why in the world is alternative medicine of relevance here? I am
>>completely at a loss to understand why you keep bringing it into
>>the discussion. There are _all kinds_ of dissenting, alternative
>>views on _all kinds_ of social, scientific, historical,
>>political, religious, cultural, literary, esthetic, and other
>>matters which are not a part of the serious discussion about
>>anomalies and the paranormal.

Well said, Clark.

>The world of alternative medicine is relevant here because it is
>perhaps the stimulus for the major part of the money CSICOP
>receives. I do not think there are many people donating cash for
>CSICOPs UFO work, but a great many who are concerned with the
>many frauds and scams that are carried out under the guise of
>"alternative medicine". Articles about alternative medicine
>appear frequently in magazines dealing with ufology.

Skeptical Inquirer, for example.


Jerry Clark








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   Dec > Dec 22

                    Scientists Didn't Believe Astronauts

From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@allstream.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 02:05:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:53:42 -0500
Subject: Scientists Didn't Believe Astronauts



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=624&ncid=753&e=10&u=/ap/20031211
/ap_on_sc/high_auroras

High-Altitude Auroras Stump Scientists

Thu Dec 11, 3:48 AM ET

By Andrew Bridges
AP Science Writer


SAN FRANCISCO - A military satellite has detected auroras, those
shimmering displays of colorful light, at altitudes far higher
above Earth than previously known, confirming anecdotal reports
from astronauts that scientists had dismissed.

Known as the northern or southern lights, the auroras typically
seen from the ground have been known to extend from about 60
miles to a few hundred miles above the planet's surface.

Now, cameras on the Air Force's Coriolis satellite launched
early this year are also spotting auroras above 500 miles. How
they are produced at such heights is still a mystery.

"It's a relatively new aspect of this phenomenon no one has seen
at this altitude," said David Webb, a research physicist at
Boston College.

Details were presented Wednesday at the fall meeting of the
American Geophysical Union.

Pulses of charged particles, mostly electrons, produce auroras
when they are flung off by the sun and collide with molecules in
the Earth's atmosphere.

Previously, scientists believed the effect was limited to lower
altitudes where the atmosphere is more dense. High above Earth,
they believed, there simply weren't enough air molecules to
create the effect.

As a result, astronauts' reports of seeing auroras weren't
believed, said Bernard V. Jackson, a solar physicist at the
University of California, San Diego.

But something is there, scientists now say, and in sufficient
quantities to create the newly spotted high-altitude auroras.

One theory is that the explosions of particles from the sun
eject nitrogen from the ionosphere to much higher altitudes,
Webb said.

Scientists first noticed the high-altitude auroras while looking
at pictures from a trio of cameras included in the $10 million
Solar Mass Ejection Imager. The experimental instrument was
launched in January.

In images taken during a massive solar eruption in May,
scientists observed a brightening that nearly swamped the
instrument's cameras.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 22

                 Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:05:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:06:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:35:50 +0000
>Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:35:34 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:16:40 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts

>>>I have snipped all the material in which Burns pursues his
>>>ludicrous arguments that Dave Clark and Andy Roberts
>>>(particularly the latter) are the agents of the devil and/or the
>>>British Government. In promoting this view, he urges us to read
>>>his article in Notes From the Borderland. I would urge anyone
>>>who wishes, to do so, where they will simply find a string of
>>>unsupported allegations - research by proclamation, to coin a
>>>phrase.

>>>However, I am more interested in the following exchange. Jenny
>>>Randles comments:

>>>>>Was I aware that Andy had been engaged in hoaxing? He has often
>>>>>made dark hints about this, but I have never seen any evidence
>>>>>of such activities, nor has Andy ever privately told me what he
>>>>>might have been up to.

>>>>>I learned of the Blue Hare saga much like others did but I am no
>>>>>wiser than anyone else as to the details or motives.

>>>>>How do I view experimental hoaxing? I think it can have a useful
>>>>>role to play in UFO investigation - revealing data about
>>>>>observation, perception, and reporting mechanisms - all vital to
>>>>>our study. There have been some impressive examples in the past
>>>>>(eg the Cradle Hill hoax photo test).

>>>To which Burns replies:

>>>>Surely people who take part in experiments usually have prior
>>>>notice that they are taking part. Jenny it was wrong and you
>>>>know it.

>To which I replied:

>>>Well, no, Max. If you are performing an experiment to see how
>>>people react to, describe and report unusual and unexpected
>>>visual stimuli it is important that they are not warned in
>>>advance that they are taking part in an experiment!

>><snip>

>>That's just pure and unadulterated barnyard flapdoodle (further
>>infested by blundering bugs), Mr. Rimmer (...You really should
>>get your hologram re-charged!).

>Mr Lehmberg's literary style has long ago ascended above the
>rarified heights reached by the post-modern lucibartions of
>Colin Bennett.

You want to banter about style we can banter about style, Mr.
Rimmer, an unctuous deflection I knock out of my way like so
many twigs of rotten deadfall... and the comparison with Mr.
Bennett is _not_ unappreciated. Who... as I recall, had you
squealing like Ned Beatty, or was that another... no matter, I
digress.

>Unfortunately this often gets in the way of
>discerning his meaning.

Yeah - I think you'll find that it's more than a few know -
exactly- what I'm talking about, Mr. Rimmer... you among them.

>However ...

However, indeed! Continue your fancy dance to run away from the
in-your-face assertion that there is NO justification for the
campaign of deceit perpetrated by, well, _you_ among others (as
their champion and defender!)! I'm sure _that_ was clear enought
for you, sir!

>>This is no controlled scientific experiment by balanced
>>researchers in the pursuit of aggregate truth... sir, for all
>>your unctuous efforts to make a silk purse out of a sows ear!

>If you were to read the articles on the Magonia website to which
>I referred, you will see that the Warminster photographic hoax
>was indeed a controlled scientific experiment.

Yeah - that's right, send me to a Nazi/Skinhead site for
information on Jewry... (a heavy handed metaphore but the paint
sticks) Moreover, its obvious to anyone with a mild amount of
common sense and the intelligence of an ornamental cactus, sir!
The investigatory thrust of you and _yours_ is to dismiss,
deride, ridicule, deflect, obfuscate, deflate, delegitimize, and
despoil the desire for aggregate humanity to wonder what's
outside your _bo_ Mr. Rimmer! There's no prettier face on it
than that.

>>This is, instead, a deliberate program of disqualifying
>>subterfuge perpetrated by ax-grinding persons... to keep a
>>ufological giggle factor high, a ufological confidence level
>>low, and a mainstream Status Quo on an, undeserving, even keel!

>The ufological giggle factor (such a splendid phrase)

It helps to remember that it's there! It helps to remember that
it's working for _you_ and your outmoded, outdated, and frankly,
out of gas world view! It is not an actuality that individuals
bring on themselves, it is one that has ever been imposed on
them, sir! And you (et al) are that imp of imposition.

>is kept
>high by nonsense such as expressed in the above paragraph, and
>by biased, ineffectual and slapdash researchers whose work needs
>to be evaluated critically.

Yeah, right...  Ask Richard Hall how many millions of dollars
[or opium pounds!] he's been able to raise for research
decidedly a little more balanced than to which you'd refer (and
otherwise only -cloak- in a mantle of scientific
respectability!). Ask Jerry Clark, Stanton Friedman, Jacques
Vallee... The *real* look's not being remotely done, Mr. Rimmer,
and you know it!

>One of the ways of doing this is
>through controlled experiments such as was performed at
>Warminster.

>>These are not ufological saints, sir, they are intellectual
>>sinners, enemies of science and rationality, and should be run
>>out of town on a ufological rail! Lay down with the dogs and
>>come up with their fleas, Mr. Rimmer!

>Science and rationality is progressed through experiment and
>observation.

How deliciously pedantic! How wonderfully erudite! You really
should try some 'data-following' science and 'unbiased'
rationality along with your cultured penchant for the deflecting
bon mot and the artful dodge... another tangle of rotten twigs
to brush aside enroute to the soft gooey center that is Mr.
Rimmer. It's all coming apart for you, sir. Can you feel it?

>>...And I'm very disappointed in _you_, Ms. Randles, which
>>shouldn't necessarily matter to you, but that's a report from
>>the field.....

>By the way, I must apologise to those defenders of the English
>language who from time to time visit this List, for my repeated
>use of the plural "stimuli" when I should have written
>"stimulus" in a previous post. My only excuse is that, due to
>the time difference, I tend to write my posts late at night
>after a hard day terrorising library users.

All the grammer nazis will breath a sigh of relief at this
closing little reminder of gentility and intellectual calmess,
your low bow of contrived convenience to the constant reader...
reminding him that it is more likely -you- with the cognitive
highground...? I mean, after all... you're arguing with a
credulous proponent, a believer, a kook.... eh? ...And one that
can't be understood because he writes like Colin Bennett and is
subject to "post-modern lucibartions." LOL. Tick... tock... Mr.
Rimmer, the bell you hear? It's -your- bell!

>For those who need them, here are some [sic]s to add as
>appropriate:

>[sic], [sic], [sic], [sic].

Ok! It's not _me_ that's... [sic], [sic], [sic], [sic]... (or
maybe, sir, you're 'pun' challenged, too). It's the down-
dumbing duplicitous and the axe-grinding egregious! It's the
artful outdated-meme Floggers, chumping psychosocial cherry-
pickers, and conclusion-driven naysayers at the root and
fertilizing our ignorance and lack of ufological progess, sir!

...Run 'em out of town on a rail! ...Dogs and fleas, Mr.
Rimmer! It's not science, sir! It's science fraud! And, that
*rose* would smell as sweet by -any- other name! You call it
what you will. I -know- what it is.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $450.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scabrously specious scurrilous.







   UFO UpDates
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 22

                Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:28:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:09:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Clark


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:05:51 -0700
>Subject: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 16:01:02 -0700
>From: James J. Lippard <lippard-skeptic@discord.org>
>To: skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu


>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:57:16 -0600
>>Subject: Re: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?


Jim,

I hope that we can roll up this discussion soon. I'm sure you
have other things to do. I know I do. And it is, after all,
almost Christmas, and I do have a family. I'm writing this only
because if I don't respond, I know the predictable reaction.

>Jerry responded that Fate's current circulation is quite small,

Well, not quite right. Historically, not just currently, Fate's
subscription base was small. It is true, however, that it is
surely even smaller now.

>Llewellyn dumped it for being a money-losing endeavor, it has
>always paid contributors very poorly (leading to their
>complaints), and no one got rich writing for Fate. Fortean Times
>also pays, but just barely. He then wrote:

>Clark:
>>Except in the imagination of debunkers, nobody got rich writing
>>for Fate (or, for that matter, publishing it). Fate's tiny
>>payments, it is true, were higher than those for other pro-
>>anomaly/paranormal publications, which were and are largely
>>nonexistent. Fortean Times pays, but just barely.

>>This is an amazingly silly argument which Lippard, who
>>ought to know better, is making. Let us hope it will expire
>>here out of sheer boredom.

>Jerry, you don't identify just what is the "amazingly silly
>argument" that I'm making. If you look at what I actually said,
>above, I said that Fate paid contributors while Skeptical
>Inquirer never has. I also said that Fate has had advertisers
>(also true of Fortean Times), while Skeptical Inquirer has not.
>You offer nothing to disagree with what I've said - it would be
>difficult to do so, since what I've said is accurate - so you
>must be disagreeing with some inferred argument or conclusion
>which neither of us has made explicit.

I had hoped this silly argument would die of its own tedium,
but apparently we must soldier on.

It is undeniably true that debunkers habitually charge that
there is all kinds of money to be made in "promoting" anomalies
and the paranormal. I pointed out that this is a self-serving
myth, based on my own life experience and up-close experience in
working for years at what was, for most of its life, the only
significant commercial magazine (at least in America) on the
subject. Your remarks above don't address that point, though you
do get to it later.

On the other hand:

>My guess is that you are taking what I said to be an argument
>that Fate, as a publication, is wealthier than Skeptical
>Inquirer. I didn't say that, and given the accuracy of what
>you've said, it's not an argument I would make.

Thanks. I am glad we have something on which we agree.

>What I would argue and maintain is that the typical writer for
>Skeptical Inquirer - Joe Skeptic - gets less financial return for
>such work than the typical writer for Fate, and that Skeptical
>Inquirer depends, for its survival, on either higher circulation
>numbers or external subsidies. Given what you say about Fate
>today, I would conclude that SI does better on both counts today
>than Fate, though there have been times in the past where Fate's
>circulation was substantially higher than SI's has ever been.

I have no idea how SI works financially, though from my
experience in publishing I suppose I can speculate. Probably
some of it comes from subscription revenue, the rest from
subsidies accumulated from CSICOP's relentless fund drives, in
which Fate, which ran more advertising than SI, did not engage.
CSICOP's money, I'm sure, comes largely from donations. That is
not a criticism.

>Clark:
>>Yes, some professional skeptics have done pretty well
>>financially. There are some real success stories here, e.g.,
>>Kurtz, Randi, Sherman, and some others. I wish the same could be
>>said for some of their counterparts on the open-minded end of
>>anomaly inquiry. I'd be happy to compare my income with that of
>>any of the above-mentioned.

>I think you mean Shermer, rather than Sherman, though I don't
>know how financially successful he has been - the Skeptics
>Society still operates out of his home, and Skeptic magazine
>still seems to have trouble with its publication schedule (e.g.,
>the last two quarterly issues of 2003 have not yet been
>published).

I have no doubt that Shermer (pardon the typo, and thanks for
the correction, so as to remove any confusion here) is sincere.
I also believe that he is a bright, well-intentioned guy, and
I'll bet you anything that he gets bigger advances on his books
than I do. Judging from the newspaper, radio, and television
support (including actual specials and, if memory serves, a
series) he's gotten, he had a publisher who put a decent amount
of money into the promotion of his book (whose subject, for
Updates readers unfamiliar with it, was the always gripping
topic of why people presume to hold opinions different from
Shermer's).

I wish that serious anomalistic and paranormal works got
comparable support, and comparable access to the sorts of
major media Shermer's received.

>I don't see anything to disagree with here, though I will note
>that for the vast majority of skeptics, including leaders of
>skeptical organizations and those published in skeptical
>publications and chapters of skeptical books, their skeptical
>work is a net expense, not a source of income.

The same, of course, is overwhelming true for researchers of
anomalies and the paranormal.

>And even for those who have published skeptical books, it is
>only those who have found mainstream publishers who have earned
>any serious money. I suspect royalties for many skeptical books
>are paid in the low double-digits.

And of course the same is overwhelmingly true for writers
on anomalies and the paranormal.

>Lippard:
>>>Sagan is a science popularizer who got famous because of Cosmos
>>>- it wasn't debunking that made him rich. He was able to make
>>>money on works that contained debunking material because his
>>>name sold books, not because people love to give money to
>>>skeptics.

>Clark:
>>People sure seemed to like reading Sagan's debunking, which
>>seemed integral to any of his books that I ever read. No pro-UFO
>>or-anomaly writer has ever seen sales figures like Sagan's. I
>>don't begrudge the success of any honest writer, but I do object
>>to sanctimonious claims about one side's supposedly superior
>>virtue and the other's allegedly superior income.

>I am skeptical that it is debunking per se that attracts people
>to Sagan's work.

And, based on my own experience of interaction with Sagan
enthusiastists and my observations of same, I am skeptical of
your assessment. Let's leave it at that, okay - what gentlemen
call an agreement to disagree? My views on Sagan and his impact
on relevant matters have been published elsewhere. It can be
reasonably argued, I think, that Sagan was the most famous and
influential debunker in the popular culture of our time.

>Lippard:

>We agree that Nova is a quality show. I agree that it is nearly
>always critical of anomalistic claims, but I think we disagree
>about the cause. You attribute it to an "elite media bias." I
>attribute it to where the weight of the evidence lies.

I guess you and I will also disagree to disagree about that.

You are expressing an extraordinarily simplistic, and often
debunked, view of how science works - essentially, in a vacuum,
and according to textbook claims as opposed to actual practice,
thus obviating any need for, among other things, social-science
inquiry into science and scientists (who, after all, are just
automatons processing data according to universally applied
standards of objectivity). But this is, after all, UFO UpDates,
where things get written in a hurry and people have to go back
to the concerns of real life. I would like to think that you do,
in fact, know better, and I suspect you do.

>Lippard:
>>>I think your view of the paranormal and anomalies is oddly
>>>narrow, completely omitting (for another example) the multi-
>>>billion dollar field of alternative medicine, which even has
>>>substantial U.S. government funding these days.

>Clark:
>>I wasn't aware that alternative medicine is "paranormal". Again,
>>this goes to your definition of anomalies and the paranormal as
>>"anything I don't like."

>Most alternative medicine is not paranormal, but certainly makes
>anomalistic claims. Some is explicitly paranormal (for example,
>any alternative medicine claims made in terms of chi, life
>force, mentally induced powers of healing, etc.).

"Most alternative medicine is not paranormal." My point all
along. Psychic healing (in which prayer often plays a role),
which does make paranormal claims, is something relevant to
parapsychology's concerns, one of which is psychokinesis. I have
no great interest in parapsychology, but I know enough about it
to be aware that parapsychologists have researched the subject
and published scientific work on it. In that narrow sense,
"alternative medicine" - one form of it, anyway - falls under
the rubric I understand.


>Jerry, you have repeatedly attributed a view to me of anomalies
>and the paranormal as "anything I don't like." That is
>inaccurate and unfair - on the contrary, I am *fascinated* by
>such claims, and actively seek out information on those topics,
>and have done so since my childhood. That's why I read _Fortean
>Times_, and why I used to subscribe to the _Journal of
>Scientific Exploration_ and the _Journal of Parapsychology_ (I
>dropped the latter two due to lack of time and the priciness of
>subscriptions).

Good for you, and I do not mean that at all sarcastically.

>I find it quite ironic that, in order to respond to my
>characterization of your definitions of "paranormal and
>anomalies" as far too narrow, you accuse me of broadening my
>definition in order to encompass a larger sphere of "things I
>don't like." The fact of the matter is that I have a broader
>sphere of "things I am interested in" which involve claims
>contrary to current scientific theory.

Just like me, I imagine. It's just that I don't put everything
representing an unorthodox view under the heading of "anomalies
and the paranormal." A book I will write next year deals with
unorthodox views of politics and history, many of them strange
indeed, but that doesn't make them paranormal in any ordinarily
understood sense of the term.

>Clark:
>>>>Anybody who's written a book arguing a positive view of the UFO
>>>>phenomenon (or cryptozoology, a secondary interest of mine), as
>>>>I have, knows beyond any doubt whatever what the sales figures
>>>>are. I am unaware of any book of scientific parapsychology that
>>>>has been a great financial success in decades. Anyone who argues
>>>>otherwise is simply insulting both my intelligence and my
>>>>eyesight.

>Lippard:
>>>I agree with this statement, but again, I think you are oddly
>>>narrowing what you are describing in order to make your argument
>>>work. It does work when you narrow it that way, but that's
>>>certainly not the argument I took you to be making earlier.

What's with this "you" business? You act as if only _I_ think
that the controversy over anomalies and the paranormal - as
opposed to popular folklore and ideas you don't like - properly
focuses on the concerns of what Henry Bauer calls the "big
three." You apparently demand that I acknowledge that the claims
of astrology, creationism, alternative medicine (beyond, as
noted, psychic healing), and other matters - not discussed in
the anomalous literature I read and which are of no interest to
me or my colleagues - are part of the discussion and definition.
Why?

The more I read you, the less, I confess, I know what you're
talking about. You seem to be all over the place. Is _any_
controversy - scientific, proto-scientific, quasi-scientific, or
pseudo-scientific - ultimately about anomalies and the
paranormal?

>Actually, to potentially disagree with myself - how did these
>books fare?

>Dean Radin, The Conscious Universe, 1997, Harper San Francisco
>(hardcover; Amazon.com sales rank 25,051 hb)
>Michael L. Schmicker, Best Evidence, 2nd ed., 2002, Writer's Club Press
>(paperback; Amazon.com sales rank 59,081 pb)
>Gary E. R. Schwartz, The Afterlife Experiments, 2002, Atria Books
>(hardcover and paperback editions; Amazon.com sales rank 61,557 hb,
>53,750 pb)
>Richard S. Broughton, Parapsychology: The Controversial Science, 1992,
>Ballantine
>(hardcover and paperback editions; Amazon.com sales rank 2,210,317 hb,
>152,077 pb)

>A little searching at Amazon.com leads me to believe that there
>is quite a market for this kind of work.

Oh, my word. Have you any concept of what those numbers mean in
terms of _real life_ sales? This is an absurd argument, even a
jaw- dropping one. As an author of something like 15 or 16
books, I know a bit about Amazon sales figures, and I can tell
you that - in terms of actual sales and royalties - they mean
pretty much nothing (unless, presumably, you're dealing with,
maybe, low three figures or fewer on the ratings scale).

>Comparison of a few skeptical works:

>James Randi, Flim-Flam!, 1988, Prometheus: Amazon.com sales rank 26,733
pb
>Ray Hyman, The Elusive Quarry, 1989, Prometheus: Amazon.com sales rank
>530,137 hb
>James Alcock, Psi Wars, 2003, Imprint Academic: Amazon.com sales rank
921,286
>Joe Nickell, ed., Psychic Sleuths, 1994, Prometheus: Amazon.com sales
rank
>483,662 hb

Oh, come on. In real-life terms, I'm willing to wager from my
own by now considerable experience of Amazon sales figures, this
means that pro- paranormal books like Broughton's and Radin's
sell a few more dozen copies a years than their debunking
counterparts. Are you seriously contending that Broughton and
Radin (and, by implication, I) are getting rich from these vast
sales, or that these works speak to a vast and insatiable public
appetite? Ah, if only that were true.

>In my opinion, what distinguishes serious from nonserious is not
>the subject matter of exploration, but the methodology of the
>explorers.

Absolutely.

>Lippard:
>Perhaps it is my philosophical and cognitive science background,
>but yes, I do have an interest in "heresy" even beyond
>paranormal and scientific anomaly claims. Of special interest to
>me is what are the social and psychological motivators to
>divergent views, and to resistance to correction - including
>within groups such as skeptical organizations.

>But I'm not "out to get" people who disagree with me - I'm
>interested in understanding and gaining knowledge.

So am I. So is anybody, pro- and anti-anomaly or neutral, who's
serious and reasonably open-minded.

>Clark:
>>Anti-anomaly authors have a much better shot at getting comparable
>>skeptical manuscripts in print, via Prometheus. I don't
>>object to that; I'm all in favor of books and the circulation of
>>ideas. I do wish, however, that there were enough money in
>>anomalistics to support a pro-anomaly Prometheus.

>I am skeptical of your first sentence. My perusing at Amazon.com
>does not seem to support the claim.

That's a weird observation. Are you denying that Prometheus
publishes skeptical manuscripts which otherwise would have a
hard time finding a publisher? _Really?_ Perhaps you failed to
understand what I was saying, and in that case it may be my own
fault. If so, apologies. I wasn't saying that these books were
or are _unworthy_ of publication (though I confess that a few
Prometheus titles have so struck not just me), only that without
Prometheus there to rescue them they probably wouldn't have been
published for reasons having nothing to do with their inherent
quality or general worthiness.

>Clark:
>>Overwhelmingly, pro-paranormal books don't get published by
>>mainsteam imprints. That may have been true several decades ago
>>(e.g., the 1970s), but today most titles, from serious to silly,
>>are released under the imprint of very small houses or are self-
>>published. Except for the occasional title by a media star such
>>as psychic John Edward, mainstream houses have little interest
>>in paranormal/ anomaly titles these days and have not had any
>>such interest for some time. The reason is that they don't sell.

>Again, I think the evidence on Amazon.com is not supportive of
>your argument, though I must admit I've not seen sufficient
>empirical evidence to be sure one way or the other. This is,
>however, something amenable to empirical investigation.

Publishing in the area of anomalies and the paranormal is
something I know about from a whole lot of life experience, as
well as conversations with editors, agents, publishers, and
fellow writers, and observations over many years. That is why I
have so little patience with arguments like yours, which
apparently began as a defense of an extraordinary claim made by
debunking polemicists of whom, till recent experience taught me
otherwise, I would have thought you'd be as skeptical as I.

If I were to live my life again, I would not go anywhere near
these subjects, and especially in expectation of making enough
money from writing (seriously) about them to make any kind of
living a man of my age and experience ought to expect. The
details are nobody's business, so I'll let it go at that.
Suffice it to say, however, that among my friends and colleagues
I am far, far from alone in holding these sentiments. In my
next life, I'll work for CSICOP, where you can actually get a
job that pays and, morever, provides benefits (I presume).

>>>CSICOP's being wealthier than CUFOS is but a single point
>>>comparison. Again, I think you've narrowed the comparison.

>>Which serious, pro-anomaly research group - say the open-minded
>>equivalent of CSICOP - is as wealthy as CSICOP? I have never
>>heard of one, and it is surely significant that you don't
>>mention one. That is because, of course, no such group exists.

>Again, I think the correct comparison is in the aggregate rather
>than individual group to individual group. Even if CSICOP were
>the wealthiest single organization in the field (which it may
>be), that doesn't mean that skeptics are better funded than
>promoters of anomalies overall.

That's simple nonsense. If the best you can come up with is
Bigelow's project (of which, moreover, hardly anybody's heard
and whose work and conclusions are unknown to the larger public
[even to most anomalists], and from which scarcely an anomalist
anywhere on the planet is going to see a nickel for his or her
own work), this discussion has pretty much run its course.

>Clark:
>>>>Anyway, as anyone who reads it knows, FT carries a notable
>>>>amount of skeptical material. Its views of UFOs, for one
>>>>example, are nothing that would should cause any true- believing
>>>>CSICOPer any discomfort. Unhappy with FT's treatment of many
>>>>questions, one writer - Colin Bennett - has even started what he
>>>>calls the "alternative Fortean Times."

>And you also spoke of "its views of UFOs" being skeptical, as
>though the magazine has an official position on the subject.

What is an "official position"? I know SI claims not to have
one, though of course it does. All I can judge, this red herring
aside, is from the articles and reviews FT publishes, which - as
I and others long ago noted - often have an anti-UFO slant. In
this sense you're missing an obvious, interesting, and rather
amusing parallel with Tiffany Thayer and Doubt.

>I'm willing to be persuaded by actual empirical evidence that FT
>has expressed a bias for or against a particular view, if you
>can produce it. I know that I find people expressing theories I
>find insufficiently supported in every issue, including on the
>topic of UFOs.

_Of course_ I'm not arguing that FT doesn't publish heterodox
opinions. Jeez. What I did say is that it also publishes a fair
amount of skeptical material, especially apparent in its
coverage of UFO matters. If you are contending otherwise, then
we are not reading the same magazine, or you're simply not
paying attention to the issues I'm addressing, or you're
throwing in letters from readers with feature articles. And if
you think that that certain regular FT contributors and
reviewers - experienced readers will know whom I mean - are pro-
UFO, you are badly mistaken.

Which, I suppose I will have to add, does not mean that FT
_never_ publishes pro-UFO material. After all, I have
contributed the occasional review, op-ed piece, and (one)
article (not specifically, in any event, on whether UFOs are or
are not extraordinary, but a skeptical piece on John Keel). But
on the whole FT tends to be dismissive, in the Thayer tradition,
of the UFO phenomenon, as ufology-unfriendly editorial remarks
have also indicated.


>I would agree that creationists are religiously motivated, but I
>don't think motivations make the distinction between what is
>"serious" and what is not in anomalies research. Again, I think
>it is the methodology. Historically, there have been
>creationists using proper scientific methodology - most of them
>end up becoming evolutionists (there are a number of examples in
>Ronald L. Numbers' excellent book _The Creationists_), but some
>do not. E.g., Stephen Jay Gould's former student Kurt Wise (M.S.
>Univ. of Chicago, Ph.D. Harvard).

This really is not relevant to anything we are discussing. It
is possible, though not of particular interest to me, for
someone to do good science whose ultimate intention is to prove
a religious doctrine. As we all know, the history of science is
full of such examples. It is also possible, as the same also
attests, for bad or dubious science to be done toward the same
end. All I care about is that this is irrelevant to a
discussion of anomalies and the paranormal - unless, say, the
researcher in question is studying UFO sightings to prove that
angels and demons are plaguing our world. If that were the
case, I'd keep my distance from the guy and almost surely
criticize his work in print, and so would any colleague I
respect.

It is my view that, as a general principle in the modern world,
science and religion are best kept in their respective spheres. In
any event, I just don't see this as something we need to be
discussing here. Maybe over a beer or two somewhere, but not
here.


>Lippard:
>>>And why do you leave out alternative medicine? That's clearly on
>>>the fringes of mainstream science, yet incredibly well-funded,
>>>and occasionally bits of it make their way into the mainstream.

>Clark:
>>Why in the world is alternative medicine of relevance here? I am
>>completely at a loss to understand why you keep bringing it into
>>the discussion. There are _all kinds_ of dissenting, alternative
>>views on _all kinds_ of social, scientific, historical,
>>political, religious, cultural, literary, esthetic, and other
>>matters which are not a part of the serious discussion about
>>anomalies and the paranormal.

>Perhaps you should define your terms. I am using "anomaly" to
>mean a datum or series of data that is surprising, unexpected,
>or completely contrary to current scientific theories.

Please refer to my remarks on Corliss's work in the previous
post.

>Clark:
>>Is it your view that _any_ unconventional, alternative opinion
>>or enterprise is part of the vast money-making machine that
>>comprises the anomalies/paranormal industry?

>Hardly. I'm not making any conspiratorial claim about cogs in a
>single organized machine.

I don't recall ever accusing you of adhering to conspiracy
theory. But you have made claims about the alleged profitability
of anomalistics and paranormal publishing and advocacy that are
not true.


>Clark:
>>claims (e.g., the Resurrection of Christ), and biblical
>>archaeology, for example, investigates historical origins,
>>sometimes consciously seeking to validate biblical claims.

>A perfectly legitimate field of scientific study, by the way.

So, given your broad definitions of these things, you do include
organized religion under the rubric of moneymaking paranormal
advocacy groups?

>>Religious persons pray for healing or for changes in their
>>circumstances or even in the physical world.

>Another perfectly legitimate topic of investigation, on which
>papers have been published in mainstream medical journals, as
>well as in, e.g., the _Journal of Scientific Exploration_.

Yes, psychokinesis - which is what I suppose you're talking
about here - is of interest to parapsychologists. Always has
been. So?

Again, do you believe religious organizations therefore to be
in effect paranormal groups?

>>judge, say, Christian doctrine a paranormal claim which ought to
>>be discussed in the same breath as, for instance, laboratory
>>experiments in psychokinesis, or analyses of UFO photos?

>If it's based on factual claims, sure. Why not? The Society for
>Scientific Exploration treats them that way, and I think they are
>quite right to do so.

See second question above.

>Clark:
>>If your point, finally, is that paranormal organizations such as
>>mainstream religious bodies have incomes that dwarf CSICOP's,
>>then I guess I can't argue with that, and you've won the
>>argument.

>I don't think they need to enter the picture.

Given the above, why not?


Jerry Clark






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   Dec > Dec 22

                     British Ufology On Self Destruction

From: Chris Parr <cparr@talk21.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:41:45 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:13:21 -0500
Subject: British Ufology On Self Destruction


Ufological cases must be merited on the gathered evidence
obtained. Therefore, on this basis, the Sheffield UFO incident
must fall into the category of 'X-Files Fantasies' manifesting
into 'Genuine UFO Incidents'.

Serious UFO research is dramatically affected by the 'Max Fenig
Factor' and any 'Blue Hare' style hoaxes must be celebrated as a
study tool to expose the bizarre stereotypical claims of the 'X-
Files Fantasists' within British UFO research.

Cumbria UFO Research has been hindered by the mass of fantasy
evidence accumulated by current "Quest UK UFO Investigator of
the Year" in Sharon Larkin.

If a Doctor was guilty of malpractice, then any hoax to expose
the total ineptitude would be a justified 'Whistle-Blower'
exercise.

Ridding Ufology of its of radical thinkers and people who
understand the crazy plots of the X-Files fantasists will
seriously damage the  eco system of British Ufological Studies.


Chris Parr







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   Dec > Dec 22

                   UFO Expert Joins Next Hunt For Ogopogo

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:58:47 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:15:29 -0500
Subject: UFO Expert Joins Next Hunt For Ogopogo


Hi List

Here is something you might find of interest. A major newspaper,
the Vancouver Sun, just wrote an article on an upcoming
expedition I will be on with the Legend Hunters in coming August
2004.

One thing I will say the paper got wrong was when I was asked if
I believed in the Ogopogo. I certainly did not say I "didn't"
believe it, but rather it is like UFOs or anything else. I
certainly do believe there could be a unknown creature roaming
the lake. Also they got the part wrong about how many listeners
hear me every month which is way up from what was reported. But
all in all, I was happy to see the newspaper run the article.
Should be exciting come August.

Take care,

Brian

-----

UFO Expert Joins Next Hunt For Ogopogo

Okanagan, Searchers to use sonar-equipped boats, remote-control
camera, divers in August.

By David Wylie
Sterling News Service

Vancouver Sun Newspaper
Saturday, December 20, 2003
www.vancouversun.com

Kelowna, A group of Ogopogo hunters are planning a third major
quest to find the monster they believe lurks in the depths of
Okanagan lake - this time in company of a well-known Canadian
UFO expert.

Brian Vike, who researches alien sightings and encounters from
his home in Houston, B.C., appears regularly on radio shows
across Canada and the U.S. to discuss aliens with listening
audience of about three million. He said he doesn't necessarily
believe in Ogopogo, but there have been enough sightings to take
the mythological creature seriously.

"They've been doing this [the searchers] for years and it's not
a hokey operation. They spend a lot of money," said Vike.

"Some of the big talk radio shows in the United States wanted to
carry [the expedition] live. It'll be great for tourism," he
said.

Experienced Ogopogo hunter Bill Steciuk said the wide-scale
scientific search is planned for mid-August 2004. The team will
use three boats equipped with sonar, remote-controlled under
water video equipment and divers to try to locate the creature.

"Why? It was time to do a scientific search. Why do you climb a
mountain? Because it's there. Why do you hunt Ogopogo? Because
there's something in the lake," he said. "We'll find it and
we'll get pictures of it."

There have been thousands of sightings, including some from
influential citizens, like doctors and business people, he said.
Steciuk said he also believes there's more than just one
Ogppogo.

"That is a species", he said.

Nearly 50 people helped during the first searches in 2000 and
2001 - both trips resulted in sightings and a 45 minute
documentary on the searches was released earlier this year. The
expedition and filming costs totaled more than $250,000.

A third major expedition planned for last August was cancelled
because of the Okanagan Mountain Park fire.

August is the ideal time for the search because there are fewer
watercraft on the lake and the weather is usually clear, Steciuk
said.

"The majority of sightings, if you go back 100 years, are in and
around the middle of August," he said.

For more info try www.ogopogoquest.com


-----

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com





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   Dec > Dec 22

              25th Aniversary Of Filiberto Cardenas' Abduction

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:01:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:42:03 -0500
Subject: 25th Aniversary Of Filiberto Cardenas' Abduction


Dear Friends,

January 3, 2004 is the 25th Anniversary (1979-2004) of the
Filiberto Cardenas abduction, that happened here in Miami.

As a reminder, we have posted a synopsis of the case
at:

http://www.geocities.com/ufomiami.geo/Cardenas.html

Despite losing contact a few years ago, this case is actualy a
pioneer and the most complete and complicated. Being rich in
physical evidences, eyewitnesses, predictions fulfilled after
publication, different authorities involved, investigated by
professionals and causing the interest of international
ufologists.

I'm hoping you remember it and enjoy it.


Regards,

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center

According to Art Levine of Miami New Times, the Cardenas
incident is "the most famous abduction case in Miami history."









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   Dec > Dec 22

             Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Speiser

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:04:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:48:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Speiser


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 22:47:03 -0500
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: Cap. Alejandro Franz <alfafox@prodigy.net.mx>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 05:45:18 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:21:46 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>>From: Captain Alejandro Franz <alfafox@Prodigy.net.mx>
>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:41:33 -0700
>>>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

<snip>

>You wrote:

>>I hope that'll help all the interested members. BTW, I have more
>>investigated hoaxes and hope to translate them very soon.

>Being a full or part-time 'hoax exposer' or would-be
>'professional debunker' is nothing to brag about as far I'm
>concerned. CSICOP, the grandaddy of all 'debunking' groups
>epitomizes bias and closed- mindedness. Debunking, when it is an
>'objective', is nothing more than an expression of
>institutionalized scientific dogma and prejudice. The fact that
>you have exposed 'other hoaxes' as you say _lessens_ your
>credibility and casts doubt on your intellectual honesty. Not
>the other way around.

I have to disagree with you vehemently, John. Every case that is
exposed as a hoax works to the favor of the UFO field, for it
narrows the focus just that much more, and teaches us what to
watch out for. When I was an investigator, I concentrated on
"weeding out" the hoaxes (which I found to be very few and far
between) and the misperceptions. If we believe that there is a
genuine signal there, it does nought but good to increase the
ratio of that signal to the ever-present noise.

Nowhere in Capt. Franz' post do I see an intimation that he has
set out to do nothing but expose hoaxes, or be a "debunker" in
the pejorative sense. In any case, the case at hand will live or
die by the facts, and not by what motivations you or I ascribe
to those presenting the facts.

And I have to say that I find it ironic to hear this coming from
someone who is hell-bent on weeding out those in the abductions
database who may have imagined their experiences. This strikes
me as a form of "debunking" in and of itself...

>Jaime Maussan and Enrique Kolbeck are in the process of
>subscribing to this List so that they can post responses
>directly to your _slanderous_ and up until now, one-sided,
>accusations.

Careful, John, I'm sure you meant to say, "potentially
slanderous"... what has happened to your normally even-handed
approach? Unless you know a lot more than has been posted here,
it seems awfully early to be taking sides...


==JJS==







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   Dec > Dec 22

                    Merry Christmas And A Happy New Year

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex@terra.com.br>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:48:54 -0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:17:24 -0500
Subject: Merry Christmas And A Happy New Year


Your presence, is a present to the world.
You're unique and one of a kind.
Your life can be, what you want it to be.
Take the days, just one at a time.
Count your blessings, not your troubles.
You'll make it through, whatever comes along.
Within you, are so many answers.
Understand, have courage, be strong.

Don't put limits on yourself.
So many dreams, are waiting to be realized.
Decisions are too important, to leave to chance.
Reach for your peak, your goal and your prize.

Nothing wastes more energy, than worrying.
The longer one carries a problem, the heavier it gets.
Don't take things too seriously.
Live a life of serenity, not a life of regrets.

Remember, that a little love goes a long way.
Remember, that a lot . . . goes forever.
Remember, that friendship is a wise investment.
Life's treasures, are people . . . together.

Realize, that it's never too late.
Do ordinary things, in an extraordinary way.
Have health, hope and happiness.
Take the time, to wish upon a star.

And don't ever forget . . .
For even a day . . .
How very special you are.










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   Dec > Dec 22

                Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:20:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:19:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Colvin


Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:39:40 -0700
From: "James J. Lippard" <lippard-skeptic@discord.org>
 To: skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu
Subj: FWD (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:41:47 -0600
>Subject: Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

[...]

>>....And I read Klass' rebuttle paper, "Crybaby", too, which was a
>>mirror image of Rawlins'... where R. attacked the argument over
>>the man, K. attacked the man over the argument, and I felt like
>>I needed a shower after reading K....

>When Klass submitted his "rebuttal" to Fate for publication
>after we'd published "Starbaby", it was so laughably inept that
>the Fullers refused to run it. I argued that we should run it
>just to show how unable CSICOP was to defend its action, but I
>was over-ruled.

There are reports that it was also submitted to Skeptical
Inquirer and rejected. If true, this is somewhat ironic, since
Ken Frazier wrote to Mary Margaret Fuller on December 8, 1981 to
protest her rejection of "CRYBABY" for publication in Fate,
calling her reasons "rationalizations" and claiming that Rawlins
and Fate had exaggerated the matter. The December 1 letter from
Fuller to Klass (and 16 others) rejecting the piece gave as the
main reason for rejection that it didn't address the charges in
"sTARBABY." (It certainly did miss the most important charges,
as I point out at http://www.discord.org/~lippard/jjl-on-
 crybaby.txt)

CSICOP did, for a while, distribute "CRYBABY" and another piece
by Abell, Kurtz, and Zelen titled "Status of the 'Mars Effect'"
to people who inquired about the issue and provided $3 for
postage, as mentioned in the introductory statement to Rawlins'
"Remus Extremus" (see below).

>Incidentally, a note to all:

>The article is "Starbaby," not "sTARBABY." The latter was just a
>stylistic thing Curt Fuller insisted on, but was never meant to
>denote the actual title, which ought to be rendered in
>conventional form.

Actually the "sTARBABY" form originated with Dennis Rawlins, and
he usually referred to the article in that way in contemporary
correspondence, though he would occasionally refer to it as just
"SB." If author's intent and usage counts, then the title is
"sTARBABY." Rawlins is a fan of wordplay, puns, neologisms, and
abbreviations--his correspondence and writings regarding the
Mars Effect, as well as his publication DIO, are full of them.

The reference is, of course, to the Uncle Remus story of "Br'er
Rabbit and the Tar Baby," a reference which Rawlins also used
when he titled his unedited piece in Skeptical Inquirer "Remus
Extremus" (SI, Winter 1981-82). The fact that that piece is
unedited will give you some idea of what his correspondence
looked like.

>I also wish to add that, despite his recent post, which I found
>disappointing, I believe that Jim Lippard played an honest,
>honorable role in this controversy.

Sorry, and thanks.

>Jerry Clark

--
Jim Lippard    lippard@discord.org    http://www.discord.org/
GPG Key ID: 0xF8D42CFE


-- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com






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   Dec > Dec 22

                   Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Mori

From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:37:28 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:21:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Mori


>From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:49:56 -0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:09:27 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>Well to be fair I didn't suggest that the 'frantic running' was
>organised. On the contrary I suggested that in such
>circumstances *normally* ordered behaviour might become chaotic
>and turn into frantic running. But really I just wanted to
>suggest that different points of view are possible. The point is
>that I'm not sure that the very fine niceties of definition and
>distinction that we are appealing to here can support very much
>weight themselves, because they don't seem to affect strong
>structural features of the account and also seem often to depend
>on second-hand reports of what someone says Barauna told them.

I agree with you that this thing of panic or not on the deck is
not a crucial matter on the case. On the other hand, just like
the fact that Barauna made spoof UFO photos four years before,
this is a relevant piece on the jigsaw for any explanation.
Barauna was interviewed on 1983, and when asked "how it was
that, with so many men on deck at the time, no one else snapped
a picture", he answered:

"Yes, there was a newspaper photographer on board but be became
so excited that he wet his pants; no picture was taken!"

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc636.htm

I would like to see if those were actually Barauna's words, by
the way, it seems this interview was recorded (if it was the
Hynek interview). Maybe this "wet his pants" is just an
expression, as in English. We do have that expression in
Portuguese too, "molhou as calcas", which usually must not be
taken literally. It's an exaggeration in any case. There were
five other photographers aboard, including one other
professional civilian photographer, of a newspaper. Skeptical
work have previously pointed to this very relevant fact (and
many others), but people just think that is not so relevant. A
professional civilian photographer taking photos even after the
incident, of the people who saw the UFO? Photos of the
development process, of people arranging the improvised dark
room? This photographer and his journalist pal of the same
'Jornal do Brasil' newspaper interviewing Barauna, the
witnessess, the commander, taking the scoop? No, this is not
relevant. It must be admitted, though, that the fact that if
this was a hoax, the journalist also didn't take the scoop is
something maybe equally curious. The fact is that this is not
irrelevant at all.

And, on the simple idea that someone could have taken photos of
the witnessess, we must notice that Barauna himself could or
should have done this. Of course, not immediatley, as we are to
believe that after the sixth and last shot, with the UFO just
over the horizon, _the film just perfectly ended_. But even if
this was true, no matter how convenient and a cosmic
coincidence, then a day after the incident, after a good night
of sleep, he could have taken photos of the dozens of people who
saw the UFO. Surely he should have had more film, unless that
was also his last film too.

>How many original accounts in Barauna's own hand are there? I'd
>be interested if significant contradictions exist between
>transcripts or tapes of Barauna's own words made at different
>times.

I'm doing exactly that right now. And it's very interesting. We
are lucky Barauna gave not few interviews, so that we can just
quote him on different interviews and let his own words
contradict.

>Yet John Harney's objection to the same issue was
>that a highly disciplined crew on an official navy vessel would
>not have just run about nervelessly but would have reacted
>militarily.

On a combat ship, that is surely a reasonable objection. Even on
a ship doing scientific research, with invited civilians aboard,
that's also a reasonable objection, because afterall, it was a
military ship. Having people armed pointing guns to the sky in
panic is something really bad. We are to believe that one of the
few people capable of thinking and acting rationally was the
civilian Barauna, who managed to take six shots on around 30
seconds. Other photographers "wet their pants", while sailors
were pointing guns to the sky, officers were running frantically
and falling, things like that. Very dramatic. In spite of all of
this drama, the incident is not recorded at all on the ship's
log.

>What we seem to have in Zaluar's quotation is a
>compromise between these two - a rather jumpy armed crew doing
>something but not very efficiently. To my mind that fits fairly
>well with a bunch of presumably young military trainees who are
>not really expecting 'active duty'. I can't find anything very
>damning in this.

According to Barauna's own words to Zaluar, people were pointing
guns to the sky. This is very, very damning to me. But, I
repeat, not crucial, by itself. It could have happened, in the
end. As you resonably point out, we can never know how people
will react. And, of course, some people will even suggest there
could have been a telepathic influence of the UFO. No kidding.
On the Piata Beach case a year later, also in Brazil, also
publicized by Joao Martins (of the Tijuca hoax), that was
exactly what was claimed. Not few people consider that case
authentic.

>This was a hydrographic survey
>vessel, was it not? How is it possible to put tight constraints
>on how a spectrum of different types of people might behave in
>very extraordinary circumstances when we don't even know who
>they were? (And yes of course that is _the_ point.) How can we
>know which individuals actually were running or jostling, or
>when and where, and what it signified about their emotional
>state? The absence of good information about these reported
>witnesses means that such speculation is hazardous.

Very true. But we can speculate about, if we have that in mind.
I never was on military service, but I suspect that having
people disorderly pointing guns to the sky on a ship, presumedly
armed, is probably something which could lead to punishment. A
lot of accidents could happen if it were not so. Armed military
people just cannot draw arms so easily. Nevertheless, despite
all these supposed panic and maybe even transgression of
conduct, the incident is not recorded at all on the ship's log.
This is not due to a cover-up or anything like that, because the
ship's log does record, on May 31, the sighting of an
"unidentified aerial object" by a corvette captain and a sub-
officer. One would suggest that the January 16 incident was not
recorded because there wasn't witnessess like a corvette captain
or even a sub-officer, or that in any case the incident was not
considered as relevant. This is not a ludicrous suggestion,
because that would also explain why Barauna could have taken the
film home, when the most reasonable thing to do (if the incident
was cosidered as relevant) would be to confiscate the film and
have it analyzed as soon as possible by a Navy office. It would
also explain why the captain wished to have the film developed
on an improvised dark room, something that could have ruined the
film, maybe he just wanted to see something as soon as possible,
because, well, he didn't saw the UFO on the sky. Maybe it could
also even explain why the journalist and the civilian
photographer didn't take the scoop. They may have thought there
was none. The fact that the Trindade photos made headlines was
actually mainly due to the involvement of our president, who
made the photos public without consulting the Navy, and through
the newspapers associated with his own government, which was
something no one knew that would occur.

>If it
>had been 30 minutes then we might be surprised. And what
>conceivable objective basis can you offer for your statement
>that no one ought to have been alarmed by a huge 120-foot fling
>saucer hurtling past them and slowing over the island where you
>say they were due to establish a permanent base? Are there
>reliable data on this?

The previous sightings on the island do not seem to have created
any panic. No people pointing guns to the sky, wetting their
pants, etc. Of course, we cannot be sure though. They weren't
exactly like the supposed sighting of January 16. One was
dismissed as a seagull by Bacellar, another was in the sky for a
long time, moving more or less at the same angular speed as the
Sun. Mexican researcher Luis Ruiz Noguez points out that this
sighting in particular could have been of the planet Venus. For
anyone reading this and thinking about dismissing this
explanation, please make sure you can read and understand his
work and arguments first.

http://www.strbrasil.com/ca/noguez_trindade15.htm

(In Spanish, see El Globo Abducido)

>The fact that Claudeir Covo mis-spells 'Monte Desejado'
>may be lamentable, but is this a core issue?

He didn't just mispell Desejado, that would be irrelevant
indeed. He reproduced a typo, along with a lot of expressions of
other people's works, available on the internet, making huge
mistakes, like attributing to Moreira something that was written
after his dead. This all may be understood, everyone makes
mistakes, but then we cannot ignore those mistakes.

I also remind that Covo's work has been termed, on this List, as
"the best piece ever written about the case so far" by Ademar
Gevaerd.

Gevaerd also criticized me: "your oppinion is a oppinion only,
while Covo was real investigation. He met Barauna personally and
several other witnesses and officers involved in the case. He
looked into the files. He went to the field". That makes even
more relevant to point out what I did, because as I repeat, his
published work unfortunately does not show anything of it, on
the contrary.

>And I'm sure
>everyone knows by now that there are not 48 signed and
>attributable statements from 48 witnesses, otherwise I doubt
>this discussion would be happening.

In fact, I guess many people may still have the hope that there
are written reports of the witnessess, supposedly 48 people in
all. Unfortunately, news clippings of the time inform us that
the testimony (of a not given number of witnessess) was just
heard, and from them a report was written, presumedly the report
we already know. People should not hold their breaths waiting
for written statements of 48 people to surface one day, but I
don't think that is a widely known and accepted fact.

>There is I assume some reason why you regard it as a 'mystical'
>n umber, and I would like to know why you imply that Barauna's
>failure to continue to give different contradictory guesses to
>other people is a sign of fraud?

I criticized the fact that Barauna's memory seem to be such that
as the time passes by, it gets clearer and better, to the point
that apparently it's only more than ten years after the fact
that it becomes consistent and precise.

>Is this a case of the
>'pathological consistency' to which I alluded in my recent post
>to John Harney? Perhaps, but then you say he initially made a
>different guess (and how could it have ever been more than a
>guess?). Well, perhaps these guesses differed by, what, a factor
>of two, three? I don't know. But does it much matter?

Of course! He's the only source as to the number of witnessess!
Aside from news clippings where we don't know the source of the
numbers given (which probably also was Barauna), the only source
of a number we may deal with is Barauna. Unless someone uncover
new evidence.

>We all
>behave like this and neatly codify our uncertain memories of
>past events for convenience and because we understand that
>people value consistency. It's perfectly natural. It doesn't
>have to mean we're fantasists or liars.

Yes, it doesn't mean that Barauna was a liar. But no matter what
we think about the reasons, or the mind of Barauna, it does
poses serious problems on taking his words as facts. He gave,
first, a number of "almost a hundred crewmen". Then, only days
later, spoke of a "group of twenty people" who saw the UFO. And
it seems that only on 1979 (or on 1973) he gave the precise
number of 48. Those are not his only contradictions.

>Certainly. It's a fascinating case, and I sincerely wish I was
>able to follow the materials in Portuguese. Thanks for all the
>information.

You're welcome, I thank you for this nice exchange.

>Incidentally, with regard to the photo analysis -
>which I think is a *much* more important area than this, Mori,

I definitely agree! There's work being done on that too.

>and is where you will be most likely to prove a convincing case,
>if that is possible - Larry Robbins recently claimed on the UFORL
>list that enhancement had shown regular patches of  different
>density in the sky around each image, revealing a cut-and-paste
>job. Does anyone know if there is any basis to this story?

I contacted Mr Robinson when he mentioned that, and he gently
told me more about it. According to him, the photo of the
Trindade UFO printed in the 1967 Look special 'FLYING SAUCERS',
there is a rectangle around the object where the halftone is
coarser than it is elsewhere in the photo. He also says that the
saucer on the Trindade photos was taken from a comic he saw many
years ago, and he's looking for the relevant drawing. This must
be further verified, and he is pursuing this.

Best regards,

Mori








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 22

                   Re: Denzler Abduuctee Survey? - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <vanguard@preciousmemories1.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 04:46:49 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:24:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Denzler Abduuctee Survey? - Hebert


>From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb@bellsouth.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:41:01 -0500
>Subject: Re: Denzler Abduuctee Survey?

>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 13:58:49 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Denzler Abduuctee Survey?

>>>From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb@bellsouth.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 12:14:01 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Denzler Abduuctee Survey?

>>>>Not to be a PITA or a stickler but... what diagnostic
>>>>criteria was employed to determine that the respondents were
>>>>"abductees"?

>>>You're not being a stickler at all, John. It's a perfectly
>>>>reasonable question. And the answer is, none.

>>>My object was not to delineate a "true" abductee from a
>>>"false" or "wannabe" abductee. For one thing, I have no
>>>psychological training as a basis from which to make such a
>>>distinction. For another thing, I find the whole question
>>>devilishly hard and suspect that this would be
>>>the case even *if* I had psychological training.

>I figure that in the long run, if a clearly identifiable group
>of abductees can ever be delineated, my data set will still
>provide scholars and researchers with valuable background
>information about those in our society who have identified with
>that label. So it's not a useless endeavor.

Dear Dr. Denzler (Brenda):

Your work, book and surveys are tremendous contributions to this
area of research and an excellent demonstration of scientific,
psycho-sociological study.  Your work is far from a "useless
endeavor", it's a breath of fresh air!

To those of us able to understand the information and the amount
of time and work invested in this kind of study, it is not only
enlightening but also thought-provoking and inspirational.
 Unfortunately, many in the UFO and abductee communities are
unfamiliar with this type of research and may not recognize the
value of the information contained therein (refer to the basic
gender demographics you present on page 165 of your book, The
Lure Of The Edge ;>).

I found Westrum's interpretations and Warren's 1970 study of
status frustration/status deprivations and UFO sightings most
helpful in my own research.  But what I found most interesting
was the difference between the GSS and the UFO survey in
reference to those who reported attending religious services.
 Fascinating gap.  Your explanations related to quasi-religious
association and the UFO community were dead on.

Considering the higher-than-average level of disaffection with
mainstream religion in the UFO community suggested by your
survey, an experiencer may be just as likely to call on Buddha
as Jesus to protect him/her from abduction (the original concept
of this thread). The results of using these techniques may vary
more according to one's religious affiliation/beliefs than any
perceived religious affiliation/beliefs on the part of the
abductors.  The next question is - What if the abductors call on
the name of Jesus to protect *them* during abductions?

;>

A. Hebert








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 22

                        The Barra Da Tijuca Incident

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:10:27 -0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:31:29 -0500
Subject: The Barra Da Tijuca Incident


The Barra Da Tijuca Incident: Brazilian Ufology Started Out With
A Hoax

Dear Listers:

As another courtesy of Marcos Malvezzi Leal, the translation
coordinator of the Brazilian UFO Magazine, here I post the
article from the co-edtor Claudeir Covo translated and finished.
It deals with the evidences of hoax regarding the Barra da
Tijuca incident, 1952.

Thanks Marcos and Claudeir for that.

A. J. Gevaerd

----------------------------------------------------------------


The Barra da Tijuca Incident: Brazilian Ufology started out with
a hoax


On May 17, 1952, the extinct magazine O Cruzeiro published an
extra issue with the title "Flying Saucer over Barra da Tijuca".
The text described in large boldface-type letters an amazing
fact: "O Cruzeiro presents, in a spectacular journalistic scoop,
the most sensational documentation ever gotten on the mystery of
the flying saucers." The publication made it clear that the
story was about an alien spacecraft, with the following lead:
The strange object came from the sea at a very high speed and it
was seen for one minute. It had a bluish-gray color; it was
quite silent, leaving no traces of smoke or fire. Read the
complete report of the fascinating sighting over Barra of
Tijuca." The story was signed by two great famous names in
journalism at the time, the photographic reporter Ed Keffel and
journalist Jo=E3o Martins. Below, on the left-hand corner of the
cover, next to the pictures of Keffel and Martins, both in
plainclothes, the text added: "Fantastic but real. The flying
saucer flying over the Pedra da G=E1vea [famous monument in Rio,
The Topsail=92s Stone], showing its lower part." Officially
speaking, that was the beginning of a definitive form the
controversy on UFOs and extraterrestrials in our country, 50
years ago. Although Ufology had already been practiced before
that, and with some extraordinary events, it was the
sensationalist story of O Cruzeiro that stirred the population=92s
imagination and called their attention to the matter. The
magazine used to have enormous circulation in those days and it
was mostly read by the Brazilian elite. The issue we refer to
was out in the newsstands on May 08, 1952, although the cover
showed the date of May 17. That is a common practice still
today, to send out the magazines to the newsstands with a future
date. What is not common now, however, is that a magazine should
give so much attention to the UFO phenomenon. Years later, still
in the 50=92s, some issues of Manchete and Fatos & Fotos, both
extinct, as well as O Cruzeiro, were bringing sensationalist
cover stories about flying saucers.

Besides that specific issue of May 1952, O Cruzeiro published
more stories about the Tijuca Incident, as it was soon to be
known, on several other vacations, such as on November 02, 1954,
November 16, 1957, December 31, 1959 and December 12, 1973.
Newspapers and magazines from all over the world got hold of the
material from O Cruzeiro and they reproduced it a number of
times, with photos and texts. The Barra of Tijuca Incident ran
the world, it was commented upon in books, in lectures and also
in Ufology newsletters all over the planet, such as the APRO
Bulletin and Inforespace, respectively the North American Aerial
Phenomena Research Organization (APRO)=92s newsletter and Belgian
Soci=E9t=E9 Belge of =C9tude give Phen=F3m=E8nes Spatiaux (Sobeps)=92s
bulletin. Those were pioneering organizations, regarded as two
of the most serious ones in the world.

We can definitely say that Ed Keffel and Jo=E3o Martins=92
photographs are some of the most widely published pictures in
the whole history of Ufology. But what really happened in Barra
de Tijuca? We can read about it in the article from that famous
extra issue. And the article tells us that on May 17, 1957
between 4 =96 4.30 pm, reporters Ed Keffel and Jo=E3o Martins were
somewhere in the south area of Rio, taking pictures of couples
in love seeking privacy. On December 12, 1973, O Cruzeiro, in an
article written by J=FAlio Bartolo, had informed that the
reporters were in Barra trying to locate a foreigner that
resembled Hitler, and write a story about it. Another subsequent
article mentioned that they were after fugitive Lu=EDs Carlos
Prestes. And the different versions abound, showing early
divergences on the case and casting doubt about what the
reporters were actually doing at the place. That is crucial,
because if we knew what they really were after in Barra of
Tijuca, we would be able to have a better evaluation as to the
way the photographs were taken.

Keffel and Martins left the magazine=92s editorial office about 12
noon and, close to 1 pm, they crossed the small lagoon that
separated the great Rio de Janeiro area from Barra da Tijuca on
the little boat Piaba. Keffel and Martins soon arrived and went
to the Bar do Compadre ("Pals=92 Bar") owned by Ant=F4nio Teixeira,
in the Ilha dos Amores (Island of Love), where they had some
shrimps. Several times they got up to watch the aerial maneuvers
of the Brazilian air force (FAB) airplanes, that were flying
over the place. Then they sat down on the sand and began to
talk. About 4 pm, according to their article, a flying saucer
appeared coming out of the sea. Martins asked Keffel to take
pictures of the object. Apparently, the first shot he got was an
image of the object against the Sun. The second shot showed the
object above the Dois Irm=E3os (Two Siblings) hill, which is close
by. The third shot showed the supposed saucer over Pedra da
G=E1vea and, the fourth image was that of the object flying back
towards the sea, with Alfavaca and Pontuda Islands in the
background.

A pretty smooth acrobatic trick it did, Keffel and Martins=92
flying saucer. By tracking its route on a map, we can see that
the object made an almost perfect circle around the two
reporters: it came from the sea and to the sea it came back. "It
was totally silent and it all lasted about one minute", the
reporters emphasized in their story. Afterwards, Keffel and
Martins called the editorial staff of the magazine at once and
informed them of what had happened. They sought for witness in
the area, but couldn=92t find any.

A fisherman named Claudionor =96 Non=F4 =96 was in the neighborhood
but didn=92t see anything, and neither did the bar=92s proprietor,
Ant=F4nio Teixeira. Two couples who had been hanging around eating
shrimps also claimed that they had seen nothing. As there was no
one to confirm the story, Keffel and Martin rushed back to O
Cruzeiro. The latter would later claim that he was driving at "a
thousand (km) an hour" and that they had "to wait an eternity
for the film to be developed."

The magazine directors, Le=E3o Gondim de Oliveira and Accioly
Netto, and the magazine=92s photographic laboratory staff members,
Jos=E9 Am=E1dio, =C1vila Milton e Ari Vasconcelos, shared the
reporters' anxiety. "When the film was finally exposed, and in
it the images of the saucer, the excitement was great", declared
Keffel. The immediate enlargement of the negatives only
confirmed their story, beyond the shadow of a doubt. Even
colonel Hughes, the Air Force=92s attach=E9 with the American
Embassy in Rio de Janeiro, was eagerly awaiting the results.

At last, there it was: the properly documented flying saucer, in
five beautiful pictures. The directors of O Cruzeiro gave orders
to stop the press so they could quickly make an extra issue with
the astounding news. Unfortunately, however, there was no time
to change the cover, which was already printed. The news spread
around quickly and on the following day radio and TV stations
were announcing to the whole country the reporters' story.

The magazine=92s editorial office was literally invaded by all
kinds of curiosity seekers. Visitors included the War Minister,
general Ciro do E. S. Cardoso, the head of Military Office for
the Presidency of the Republic, captain M=FAcio Scevola e a
photograph technician, Raul Alfredo da Silva, all members of the
Air Force=92s General Staff at that time. The special issue was
quickly sold out in every newsstand. It was one of the biggest
editorial phenomena of all times in our country.

On the following days, some Air Force officers, led and oriented
by colonel Jo=E3o Adil de Oliveira, went to Barra da Tijuca,
accompanied by photographers and, using two scale models, they
tried to reproduce the same sequence of photographs. They wanted
to check if there was a possibility of a hoax.

They were right in attempting an analysis of the material. While
the pictures of the Barra da Tijuca incident were indeed
spreading around the world, the same had happened with its
truthfulness. One was beginning to wonder about the
discrepancies in the shades caused by the Sun in the
photographed object and in the landscape around it.

O Cruzeiro=92s director himself, Le=E3o Gondim de Oliveira, hired
Technical Police expert Carlos de Melo =C9boli to produce a
technical report. Indeed, the shades were divergent. But what
did it mean? In January 1955, the magazine Ci=EAncia Popular, in
its 76th issue, announced that Keffel and Martins=92 photos were
faked. In October 1957, the same publication, now in its 109th
issue, published the same thing again. This time the text said
that O Cruzeiro would have exploited the pictures with
commercial ends.

"One of the most splendid magazines of its kind, not to
mention its staff of excellent journalists, did in fact for
several weeks exploited such pictures obtained in Barra of
Tijuca by two of its reporters." And it concluded, "The pictures
are completely faked, as we stated in our January 1955 edition,
and repeat it now." Even back in those days Keffel and Martins=92
photos were not easily accepted. The Ci=EAncia Popular would go
even further, saying it hoped O Cruzeiro was just trying to
rouse their readers' curiosity by showin them, later on, how
easy it had been to forge the pictures, "and to put a stop the
flying saucer mania", according to a literal transcription of
the text. "But the unexpected happened, we suppose, with the
appearance of some Air Force officers and magnificent pilots,
who were most willing to fulfill their duties, but were entirely
naive in scientific knowledge", the article in Ci=EAncia Popular
continued. According to the magazine, Keffel and Martins had
come in handy to the officers, for now they could explore the
theme as never before, speaking in conferences, giving
interviews etc. "They even went to Campinas (SP) to collect a
tin sample of a kind that was unknown on Earth, according to the
views of a local chemist who, by claiming all the nonsense as he
did about the material, proved himself utterly unable to
understand his own area of expertise." The reporters of Ci=EAncia
Popular guaranteed that a conjunction of factors and a lot of
scientific ignorance would explain the persistence of such a
crude hoax that only idiots and uncultured people would fail to
see. "We are quite confident of our position, because those fake
pictures of O Cruzeiro=92s were made in our friends' presence,
people of great moral value, whom the reporters thought of as
simple fishermen. Our friends were in Barra of Tijuca on that
occasion, fishing as a hobby", the article of Ci=EAncia Popular
concluded, in one of the hardest blows to Keffel=92s and Martins=92
reputations. And it was far from being the last. Canadian
nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman says that an extraordinary
claim requires extraordinary evidence to support it. This is the
case here. A group of such extraordinary photographs, taken
under special circumstances, required an equally extraordinary
body of unquestionable pieces of evidence to their authenticity.
And ever since the months and years following the event in Barra
de Tijuca, neither Keffel nor Martins have been able to come up
with any.

In December 1981, in a letter to former ufologist from S=E3o
Paulo, Carlos Alberto Reis, [see "Para onde caminha a ufologia
brasileira?" (Where is Brazilian ufology heading to?), UFO 70],
William H. Spaulding, director of the North American
organization for UFO studies, Ground Saucer Watch (GSW), claimed
that he had already analyzed the pictures of O Cruzeiro and that
the shades were completely divergent=96mainly in the fourth
picture, where you can see a palm tree. In this case, the most
striking feature is that the whole setting was illuminated from
right to left, almost to the front, with the Sun slightly out of
place, but the so-called saucer was illuminated from left to
right. GSW also discovered that the picture presented
atmospheric distortion, in other words, the background was far
off and the photographed object, up close. Conclusion: for
Spaulding, a model of approximately 40 centimeters=92 diameter was
used to forge the pictures. With such weighty backup, Reis
published a story in Planeta magazine, issue 138-C, in March
1984. The controversy was back again to the Brazilian UFO
scenario, split into defenders on one side and detractors on the
other.

In spite of GSW=92s reputation, Reis paid a high price for having
decided to reveal the truth. "I walked on extremely thin ice
when I tried to simply inform the public that the Barra of
Tijuca photos were faked", Reis told A. J. Gevaerd, director of
Brazilian UFO Magazine. Indeed. Ground Saucer Watch (GSW) also
had its share of abuse, though it was one of the few serious
organizations in the world that carried out that type of
analyses of UFO photographs and negatives. As it was verified
later, in the fifth and last shot of Keffel and Martins=92
sequence the shade is also completely divergent in relation to
the real position of the Sun. The reader can check theses
details, by observing the abovementioned picture and seeing that
the arrow shows clearly that, in order to generate the shade
projected on the flying object, the Sun would have to be inside
the Atlantic Ocean.... But with a model correctly positioned in
the air, no shades are seen in the object. In an attempt to
analyze the controversy from every angle, on behalf of ufology,
we took a similar photograph, also published in this article,
using a manufactured model. The picture was taken at the same
time, on the same weekday and in the same month as Keffel=92s
photographic sequence of 5 shots, 32 years later, to be sure
that the Sun would be exactly in the same position as it was
when the original photos were taken.

That was not an easy task. Amid the controversy aroused with the
publication of Reis' article in Planeta, the author prepared a
scale model comparable to the supposed UFO published by O
Cruzeiro and went to Barra da Tijuca on May 07, 1984. The place
had changed considerably since 1952, but the reference marks
were still there. Thirty-two years later, in the same month, at
the same time, at the same place and position, to take advantage
of the sun on the correct inclination, we ran the tests. And
indeed we verified that the shades generated by the sunshine on
the surroundings are different from the ones projected on the
object.

Before we reached this conclusion, we first photographed the
surroundings, and then we added a further picture of the object,
or vice versa. With reference to the fourth or fifth photos we
then concluded that Keffel and Martin=92s flying saucer was
probably lit artificially, with lights or reflector for
photographic use, already available at that time. With such
conclusions, the authors started a long study on Barra da Tijuca
Incident, analyzing both the diverging shades and what must have
happened since Martins and Keffel had the idea of manufacturing
those pictures and why. Members of the photographic laboratory
of O Cruzeiro magazine were questioned and informed that before
the photos were taken, the two men had spent approximately an
entire month going to and coming from Barra da Tijuca, possibly
to plan on how to create the pictures. The worst thing is that
the magazine=92s board was aware of it.

According to other sources, Martins would have been the author
of the plan. At the time the photos were developed, and soon
afterwards, several people were asked and declared that the
magazine had suffered a decrease in its sales and, for that
reason, the board decided to hit the market with an "impact", to
boost sales. Others affirmed that O Cruzeiro simply played a
trick to show the reality later on. But as some Air Force
officers vouched for the photos=92 authenticity, the magazine
staff had no other choice than to acknowledge the truthfulness
of the publication, the way it had been done. Were the directors
of O Cruzeiro trying to protect the Brazilian military who
hastily and naively, stated the authenticity of the pictures?
This is one of the unanswered questions related to the Barra da
Tijuca Incident. Jo=E3o Martins himself told a friend that the
incident had been a joke and he had never imagined that it would
have been so widespread.

It=92s a sad conclusion, but the fact is that Brazilian Ufology
began with a scandalous hoax. To reach this conclusion a lot of
work was done, several analyses were carried out and repeated,
and a great number of people were listened to. Our work began
with the study of the technical circumstances of the photograph,
the negative, the camera and methods for obtaining the pictures.
Ed Keffel had in his camera, a Rolleiflex, a twelve-shot film.
The developed negative shows that Keffel used the first six to
photograph two people from the hotel where he was living (two
pictures), a landscape (one picture), a colleague from O
Cruzeiro (one picture), a young couple (one picture) and the
restaurant owner (one picture). The seventh photo, shot by the
owner of the bar, where the reporters=92 flying saucer appeared,
shows the reporters themselves having shrimp for lunch. Five
shots are left and it is exactly those ones that show the
supposed unidentified flying object that we now know was nothing
but a hoax.

To begin to understand the plot, it was necessary to analyze the
photos without cuts, although they had been published several
times and with cuts. On virtually all of the five pictures,
shown worldwide, we can see, from the middle down the picture,
something known; and fromm the middle up, the clear sky with
Keffel and Martins=92s flying saucer. This is typical of photo
trickery and most such tricks, in Ufology, are done using the
upper half of the photo with a clear sky, without any clouds. As
the reporters spent practically a month studying the site, and
conducted several experiments with models in laboratories, it is
highly probable that they had photographed the model first, and
then traveled to Barra da Tijuca to shoot the surroundings. Then
they made the trick. And as Keffel and Martins went to the site
several times that means they were probably waiting for a proper
day, with no clouds in the sky, to carry out the trick.

In his field trips Martins always used de company cars, with a
driver. But on the day he and Keffel forged the pictures they
were both with Martins=92 car. Why? It=92s evident that they wanted
the smallest number possible of witnesses =96 and the driver is
one less to worry about. This is also obvious. Some days later,
in analyses conducted at the site, the Air Force military used a
model and a lid of a pan and went to the same site where Keffel
produced the pictures. They wanted to reproduce the five
pictures in just one minute, by throwing the model upwards. Bu
they did not succeed. Well, if Martins and Keffel had thrown a
model upwards to photograph it, all the shades would be correct,
and that did not happen. The military=92s premise was wrong. The
photos were obtained by trickery and not by throwing models
upwards. If that had been the technique used by the reporters
there would have been witnesses, although the place was
deserted, and they would have reported the hoax. In their
studies the military also failed to identify the differences on
photos 4 and 5 =96 however, on photos 1, 2 and 3 the shades are
practically correct. The military also failed in throwing a
model upward and trying in just one minute, before the object
hit the ground, to reproduce the five pictures resembling those
of Keffel=92s. Such a thing could only be possible if the model
were operated by remote control=85

But from the technical point of view, the Brazilian Air Force
officers=92 most serious mistake was to try to calculate the
distance from the supposed flying object on each one of Keffel=92s
photos. This is a huge nonsense. In October 31, 1959, the
magazine O Cruzeiro published a study carried out by the
Brazilian Air Force (FAB) showing the distance from the flying
saucer to the camera, the zenith=92s distance of the object, the
azimuth, the declination, the angle, and the flying saucer=92s
altitude in relation to the sea level. This is such a serious
mistake in analysis, but it was published anyhow. Why? The study
conducted by FAB could be interesting, except for one small
detail: the diameter of the supposed flying saucer was unknown.
Without such data all the details of the analysis are useless. O
Cruzeiro forgot this detail and FAB remained silent about it. In
addition, on Keffel=92s photos there are no referential technical
elements to calculate the diameter of the object, neither its
distance form the camera, nor its altitude from the ground.

The military, however, correctly calculated the sun inclination
in relation to the skyline (sea level), which was 27 degrees and
30 minutes. But when they projected this data to a perspective
analysis they made some incredible mistakes, especially on the
fifth photo. The magazine O Cruzeiro itself, maybe to call the
attention of the officers that had done the calculations and the
wrong perspectives, made it a point to publish, just on the
fifth photo, a drawing that represented its analysis, printed
right above its own image. It seems like an inducement for the
photo to be accepted and the analysis reinforced. On the other
photographs, from 1 to 4, the drawings representing FAB=92s wrong
analysis were published separately.

To conclude that there is some kind of manipulation we just have
to compare the shades on the drawings to the shades on the image
of the object. Any layperson can notice this serious mistake. It
doesn=92t take a photo specialist to verify the differences.
Proceeding with our reasoning to try to understand what really
happened, i.e., how the plot was executed, we have to go back to
the 12 shoots in Ed Keffel=92s film. It is our understanding that
a respectable photographer does not go around taking pictures of
private things using film that belongs to the company he works
for. That was his first mistake, and that=92s exactly what
happened. On the other hand, if we analyze an aerial sight of
the site in Barra da Tijuca where Keffel and Martins were, we
will see that this point is not in front of the restaurant, as
they had declared, but somewhere some ten meters away.

Now, why would they take a picture of the restaurant owner and
then ask him, Ant=F4nio Teixeira, to do the same for them? No
doubt they did it to call his attention and to have some proof
they had been to the place. And here we come across their
malicious intent. Or, in other words, they tried to force the
situation. If they were in such place to take pictures of young
couples, then why did they photograph just one, since there were
many at that time and that was the alleged aim of their work?
Such photos were never published. However, they are not relevant
to the elucidation of the incident. We are trying to demonstrate
how the hoax was planned and not to explain how the photos were
technically forged. The real relevant fact for our analysis is
that the five photographs of the supposed flying saucer are
obtained with the continuation of the film available in Keffel=92s
camera.

Nowadays there are video cameras with long run batteries and
tapes. But it wasn=92t so, back then. Anyone who shot a wedding
party with an 8mm film equipment will understand the reasoning.
Imagine that the reader has to shoot a wedding ceremony that
will last 30 minutes, but he just has one 3-minute film. The
cameraman will have to shoot just three minutes getting the most
important scenes of the wedding, which is 10 times longer. To
correctly distribute and shoot the principal scenes, the reader
would have to know beforehand all the scenes that would occur at
the wedding to pick up the best moments.

This information, applied to Barra da Tijuca incident, makes a
lot of difference. Keffel had just five negatives available in
his camera, and he would have to know precisely and beforehand
what was going to happen to obtain images with quality. And he
knew it. Everything was programmed. It took Keffel and Martins
one month to prepare everything, so that nothing would go wrong.

Comparing to the example of the wedding, the first photo taken
by Keffel would be the bride coming into the church, that means,
the supposed flying saucer taking the stage, coming from the sea
to the continent. Then, flying over the mount Dois Irm=E3os.
Afterwards flying over Pedra da G=E1vea and then, over the site
where the mentioned palm tree would be. Finally, when the bride
leaves the church and throws the bouquet, on the last negative,
the supposed flying saucer is shown as leaving the scene, going
back to the sea=85

Everything was meticulously calculated and divided with
perfection. On five photos only, Keffel and Martins were able to
register different views of their saucer: from upside, downside,
leaned sideways and its profile. I ask the reader=92s permission
for a joke: to consider the reporters=92 story and photos true, we
have to believe that the flying saucer pilot had called Keffel
and Martins and set an appointment with them, telling them the
exact day, time, location and pre-programmed flight direction.

To sum it up, the suspicion we had that everything was nothing
more than a hoax is definitely proved. We may speculate that the
directors of O Cruzeiro, in view of the slump in the magazine=92s
sales, and also because it was fashionable to talk about flying
saucers, decided to prepare a strategy to increase the sales.
And they counted on Keffel and Martins, the two most outstanding
reporters of the magazine, to carry out the plan. Or maybe the
reporters themselves suggested such strategy to their bosses. We
don=92t know. But something we know for sure. The strategy was
successful and the sales of the magazine rose sharply. Maybe
what was said later by some of the magazine workers is true =96
the directors of the magazine intended to explain how the hoax
was done, thus showing that it is too easy to produce flying
saucer photos. But they did not do it. And perhaps they had
never imagined that the military of that time, commanded by
colonel Jo=E3o Adil de Oliveira, would be interested in the
photographs and, worse, would vouch for their authenticity. Of
course, we do not mean to say that those officers were involved
in the plot. Anyway, their support to the incident was decisive
to make the hoax be considered true for such a long time. So,
unfortunately, we see that Brazilian Ufology started out with
such enormous hoax. Is that the reason why it still hasn=92t taken
off?








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                Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:08:15 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:33:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Shell


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:32:13 -0700
>Subject: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:24:37 +0000
>From: Ludwig Krippahl <ludik@netcabo.pt>
>To: skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu
>Subj: FWD (SK) Re[2]: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>James H.G. Redekop:
>>>How 'bout, the proponent has the burden of being convincing?

>>Kevin P. France:
>>That's the thing. Formal debate is done with the assumption
>>that you're trying to convince some third party

>If there is any burden, it falls on the idea, and the burden
>is to give us the most information beyond what we observe,
>assuming the least about what we did not observe, and fitting
>all that we did observe.

I like to think that the burden belongs to whomever it matters.
That is, if I say aliens landed in my backyard and did the
hokey-pokey, if it matters to me for you to believe, me, then I
have the burden. If I don't care what you think, then I'm under
no obligation to prove anything. If, on the other hand, you have
a burning desire to prove that I'm a fool and such a thing never
happened, then you have engaged the argument, and now share the
burden. Just my way of looking at it.








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                            Astrobiologist Diary

From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:20:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:34:45 -0500
Subject: Astrobiologist Diary



Interesting series of articles by an astrobiologist about aliens
and what they might be made of.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2092478/entry/0/








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                        Flying Saucer To Be Developed

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:41:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:37:20 -0500
Subject: Flying Saucer To Be Developed


Source: Short News

http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=35329&rubrik1=Science&rubrik2=Engineering&
rubrik3=Air%20and%20Space%20Travel&sort=1&sparte=4

12/22/2003 12:14 AM

Flying Saucer to be Developed

Russian engineers are working with the US Navy to develop what
looks like the first functional flying saucer. The craft will be
tested in 2007 in Patuxent River, Maryland. The saucer is called
the Ekip.

http://www.ekip-aviation-concern.com/

500 pounds is the weight for the prototype of this model. The
Russian engineers say they flew a 12 ton version of this model
in the early 1990s. Curt Weldon, a Republican congressman, saw
the Ekip and advocated that the US help out financially.

One stumbling block is that airflow can get distorted on oddly
shaped devices. The engineers say they created a vacuum for
this. Dr. John Fischer of NAVAIR, says "But if we can make it
work, it'll allow for new, radical concepts in aircraft design."













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               Re: British Ufology On Self Destruction - Hale

From: Roy Hale - The Lost Haven <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:46:11 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:41:14 -0500
Subject: Re: British Ufology On Self Destruction - Hale


>From: Chris Parr <cparr@talk21.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:41:45 -0000
>Subject: British Ufology On Self Destruction

Chris Wrote:

>Ufological cases must be merited on the gathered evidence
>obtained. Therefore, on this basis, the Sheffield UFO incident
>must fall into the category of 'X-Files Fantasies' manifesting
>into 'Genuine UFO Incidents'.
List,

Sheffield UFO Incident falls into X-files Category?

Having seen the title of the subject of this mail, I thought I
would be reading about UK Researchers, and their unsavoury
exploits with UFOs and such like, but I soon realised, that the
mail is actually quite hypocritical in itself, and if one reads
between the lines, is quite damming on certain UK UFO
researchers.

>Serious UFO research is dramatically affected by the 'Max Fenig
>Factor' and any 'Blue Hare' style hoaxes must be celebrated as a
>study tool to expose the bizarre stereotypical claims of the 'X-
>Files Fantasists' within British UFO research.

How closely has Chris Parr communicated with Max Burns,
regarding his ongoing research into the Sheffield Case?

Amazing style of writing here, very tabloid, and one should
commend Mr Parr for mentioning " Serious UFO research " and "
'Blue Hare' style hoaxes " as a serious tool for exposing X-file
fantasists? How would Mr Parr have felt, if the Isle of Man
incident was nothing more than a hoax perpetrated by certain UK
UFO researchers, just to see if the local UFO researchers
investigating the case, were up to it.

If any UK UFO researcher actively admits to hoaxing UFO
incidents, and then goes on to write books, claiming they have
settled all questions to old cases, would you be the first to
jump up and say you believed all of their answers, or would you
have some doubt, due to their hoax cases? >Cumbria UFO Research
has been hindered by the mass of fantasy >evidence accumulated
by current "Quest UK UFO Investigator of >the Year" in Sharon
Larkin.

This sure is one big hit list in this mail, I have never have
met Sharon Larkin, but before dissecting her on this List,
perhaps one should be courteous enough to send her a copy of
your mail, so she can have the respect of reply to your
condemnation of her research practices?

>If a Doctor was guilty of malpractice, then any hoax to expose
>the total ineptitude would be a justified 'Whistle-Blower'
>exercise.

Mr parr, how far are you prepared to go in your support of known
UFO Case hoaxes, and those who carry them out?

>Ridding Ufology of its of radical thinkers and people who
>understand the crazy plots of the X-Files fantasists will
>seriously damage the eco system of British Ufological Studies.

A statement straight from the desk of the MOD, keep rational at
a base of media self appraisal, and how many radio shows one can
been heard on, and make sure those people with no long letters
behind their name, are always kept out of the subject, please Mr
Parr, come down and join us all at ground base, you will find
that those not gifted with media exploits, are a very nice bunch
of people who are actively trying to find answers to this
enigma, but thinking outside of the box sounds like a no no from
your mail.

Happy X-mas to all,

Roy






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                Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO? - Hale

From: Roy Hale - The Lost Haven <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:53:51 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:42:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO? - Hale


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:39:01 -0600
>Subject: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO?

>Patient and gentle Listfolk:

>Several hours after posting a response to Jim Lippard, who
>disputes my assertion that Fortean Times is largely anti-UFO, I
>happened to sit down to read the most recent issue (#179,
>January 2004).

>It turns out that FT has now initiated a column titled
>"Ufology". The columnists are David Clarke and Andy Roberts, and
>the content is pretty much what you'd expect, with snarky
>references to the abduction "craze", the "Alice in Wonderland
>nature of ufology", and the like, and the predictable
>championing of prosaic explanations. In short, not all that
>different from what a consumer of Skeptical Inquirer is
>subjected to, or for that matter readers of UpDates posts from
>the above-mentioned.


Jerry,

I and many more gave up reading the FT years back, its stance is
very sceptical on UFOs, loves to have writers who do nothing
more than mock the subject, and there seems to be an abundance
of that type here in the UK.


Roy.








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              Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO? - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:54:47 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:46:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO? - Roberts


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:39:01 -0600
>Subject: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO?

Pilgrims, -

Jerry wrote:

>Several hours after posting a response to Jim Lippard, who
>disputes my assertion that Fortean Times is largely anti-UFO,
>I happened to sit down to read the most recent issue (#179,
January 2004). It turns out that FT has now initiated a column
>titled "Ufology".

You aren't keeping up, Jerry. Our column has been in FT since
about April '03.

>The columnists are David Clarke and Andy Roberts, and
>the content is pretty much what you'd expect, with snarky
>references to the abduction "craze", the "Alice in Wonderland
>nature of ufology", and the like, and the predictable
>championing of prosaic explanations.

No so. It's a fair round up of what we see is going on. Previous
columns have mentioned the new study on abductees. If their is
sceptical news to present, we do. If their is pro-UFO news to
present, we do. Obviously because we are sceptical forteans we
take that particular line, but try to show the reader ( who is
not a ufologist) what's going on. In our first column we
championed this very list as the place to be. I suggest you read
the columns before commenting Jerry.

>For good or ill, FT has formed its own, quite distinct identity,
>moving in a direction that should, in most ways that matter,
>warm skeptics' hearts.

It does. The fortean view is essentially sceptical. Just because
I play around as a hard core sceptic _here_, means nothing. My
fortean writing (on subjects as diverse as screaming skulls,
cryptozoology, the Big Grey Man of Ben Mcdhui, the Grateful
Dead's experiments in telepathy etc etc) have a different slant.
Forteans, unlike many of the ufologists who populate this list,
know how to have fun, and don't take everything so seriously
Jerry. Get thinking up a witty reply - let's see if we can get
into bonus figures with JC Bingo!


Happy Trails

Andy








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                Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:07:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:44:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO? - Hall


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:39:01 -0600
>Subject: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO?

>Patient and gentle Listfolk:

>Several hours after posting a response to Jim Lippard, who
>disputes my assertion that Fortean Times is largely anti-UFO, I
>happened to sit down to read the most recent issue (#179,
>January 2004).

>It turns out that FT has now initiated a column titled
>"Ufology". The columnists are David Clarke and Andy Roberts, and
>the content is pretty much what you'd expect, with snarky
>references to the abduction "craze", the "Alice in Wonderland
>nature of ufology", and the like, and the predictable
>championing of prosaic explanations. In short, not all that
>different from what a consumer of Skeptical Inquirer is
>subjected to, or for that matter readers of UpDates posts from
>the above-mentioned.

<snip>

<(In any event, many of the other "anomalies" it
>reports are merely uncontroversial curiosities of nature,
>society, behavior, coincidence, and so on - oddities, in other
>words, not extraordinary anomalies in the Fortean sense.
>Nothing, in short, over which an earnest CSICOPer need lose any
>sleep.) It is surely pointless at this stage to pretend to see
>FT as no more than a hipper, flashier Fate with a younger, more
>affluent demographic as its target audience.

>For good or ill, FT has formed its own, quite distinct identity,
>moving in a direction that should, in most ways that matter,
>warm skeptics' hearts.

>Jerry Clark

Jerry,

I agree completely with your characterization of Fortean Times,
which I read for about 2 years recently. I would characterize it
as primarily a humor magazine, more joke than serious inquiry.
Definitely slanted toward CSICOPian interpretation.

When it comes to UFOs, it (they) have the strong tendency to
laugh and poke fun at the subject. Easy as falling off a log,
but all it does is trivialize the subject without addressing the
serious factual evidence. Kooks and clowns are more fun. Like
you, I think they have a perfect right to do that. But there is
Ufology and Ufoology, and they don't seem to know the
difference.


 - Dick








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                   (SK) Re: Alien Abductee Stress - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:36:48 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:12:29 -0500
Subject: (SK) Re: Alien Abductee Stress - Colvin


Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:18:06 +0000
From: Eva Durant <durant@umist.ac.uk>
  To: skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu
Subj: FWD (SK) Re: Alien Abductee Stress


Has any research compared all these masses of abduction data?
How many different types of alien civilizations are
experimenting on us?

Eva (curious)


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress."
Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com







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              Re: British Ufology On Self Destruction - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:45:52 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:14:42 -0500
Subject: Re: British Ufology On Self Destruction - Rimmer


>From: Chris Parr <cparr@talk21.com>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:41:45 -0000
>Subject: British Ufology On Self Destruction

>Ufological cases must be merited on the gathered evidence
>obtained. Therefore, on this basis, the Sheffield UFO incident
>must fall into the category of 'X-Files Fantasies' manifesting
>into 'Genuine UFO Incidents'.

>Serious UFO research is dramatically affected by the 'Max Fenig
>Factor' and any 'Blue Hare' style hoaxes must be celebrated as a
>study tool to expose the bizarre stereotypical claims of the 'X-
>Files Fantasists' within British UFO research.

>Cumbria UFO Research has been hindered by the mass of fantasy
>evidence accumulated by current "Quest UK UFO Investigator of
>the Year" in Sharon Larkin.

>If a Doctor was guilty of malpractice, then any hoax to expose
>the total ineptitude would be a justified 'Whistle-Blower'
>exercise.

>Ridding Ufology of its of radical thinkers and people who
>understand the crazy plots of the X-Files fantasists will
>seriously damage the  eco system of British Ufological Studies.

I am delighted that at least one person is prepared to join in a
sensible discussion about the value of experimental hoaxes in
ufology. So far the American side has been dominated by Mr
Lemburgh and his bizarre linguistic exhibitions.

Is anybody else prepared to stand up for, or put a rational case
against, carefully prepared, executed and recorded experiments
to determine the accuracy of UFO researchers' work?

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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                  Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:52:50 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:16:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts - Rimmer


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:05:00 -0600
>Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:35:50 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts

>>If you were to read the articles on the Magonia website to which
>>I referred, you will see that the Warminster photographic hoax
>>was indeed a controlled scientific experiment.

>Yeah - that's right, send me to a Nazi/Skinhead site for
>information on Jewry... (a heavy handed metaphore but the paint
>sticks)

This is more than a "heavy handed metaphor", and I find it
totally offensive. However it seems all too typical of the level
of Mr Lembergh's contributions, which is why I shall not respond
to any more of his intemperate postings.

I am glad to see that Chris Parr of the Cumbrian UFO group in
the UK has opened what might become a rather more serious thread
for debate of this issue.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:12:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:23:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Velez


>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:04:47 -0700
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 22:47:03 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>From: Cap. Alejandro Franz <alfafox@prodigy.net.mx>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 05:45:18 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:21:46 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>>>From: Captain Alejandro Franz <alfafox@Prodigy.net.mx>
>>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>>>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:41:33 -0700
>>>>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

><snip>

>>>I hope that'll help all the interested members. BTW, I have more
>>>investigated hoaxes and hope to translate them very soon.

>>Being a full or part-time 'hoax exposer' or would-be
>>'professional debunker' is nothing to brag about as far I'm
>>concerned. CSICOP, the grandaddy of all 'debunking' groups
>>epitomizes bias and closed- mindedness. Debunking, when it is an
>>'objective', is nothing more than an expression of
>>institutionalized scientific dogma and prejudice. The fact that
>>you have exposed 'other hoaxes' as you say _lessens_ your
>>credibility and casts doubt on your intellectual honesty. Not
>>the other way around.

Howdy Jim, All,

You wrote:

>I have to disagree with you vehemently, John. Every case that is
>exposed as a hoax works to the favor of the UFO field, for it
>narrows the focus just that much more, and teaches us what to
>watch out for.

I couldn't agree more if I had written this myself. But... there
are mitigating factors here that need to be considered. If it
turns out that the person who is exposing a hoax has an axe to
grind with the individual(s) in question over an unrelated and
'preexisting' issue, then the objectivity and the honesty of the
person who is exposing the alleged hoax is called into question.
There are 'righteous' expose's that have been done that fit the
definition you penned above. But you know as well as I do how
easy it is to 'set somebody up' and ruin their reputation
because (all) the facts may not be widely known.

If I may... here is a personal note about why I am bending
over backwards to give Maussan and co. a fair hearing and the
benefit of the doubt:

I have been on the receiving end of the kind of smear campaign
that is being waged against Jaime Maussan. I can not only
identify with his situation, I can empathize with it. I _know_
how it feels to be on the receiving end of such an attack.

I won't mention his name, but an extremely manipulative
individual with a monolithic character disorder managed to sell
a few of my friends and associates a 'bill of goods' (completely
fabricated lies) about me in an effort to destroy whatever good
will and respect I had garnered from my peers over the years. It
was a malicious and unjustified attack he launched - simply
because I was one of the few, if not the only one, who would
hold up a highly polished mirror for this unfortunate to see
_himself_ more clearly. The guy needed serious psychological
help and I gave it to him consistently by being deadly frank and
honest with him.

The whole situation was truly painful and made me feel angry and
hurt. People that I had great affection and respect for
abandoned me and turned against me. It was horrible.

Soooo....

I want to give Maussan, Kolbeck and Capt. Ruano _every_bloody_
chance that I can to make their case and to present whatever
evidence they may (or may not) possess. They deserve a chance to
do it without being 'prejudged.' I want to _insure_ that these
guys get an opportunity for a fair hearing and to get 'their
side' of the story heard.

I'm not actually 'worried' about it because I think I know most
of the folks on this List well enough to be _certain_ that Jaime
Maussan, Capt. Ruano (pilot reporting) and Enrique Kolbeck (air
traffic controller) along with Capt. Franz will all get a chance
to do exactly that; say their piece.

Each case needs to be evaluated on its own merits and weighted
according to the nature and amount of hard evidence that is
available. The simple truth is; we don't have 'all' the facts on
this case/situation -yet.

I think I have been candid about why I am 'sensitive' to his
situation - but man oh man, we really need to (collectively)
step back, take a beat, check out what _both_ sides have to say
and to offer in terms of substantiation for their statements and
_then_ after we have all the facts in hand, we can all make up
our own minds about what is what in this case. Until then, the
whole thing is and has been very one-sided up to now.

On another personal note, I've been taking a verbal beating from
my friends over this business. No 'slouchers' either! I've been
admonished by the best. Dick Hall and Royce Myers to name but
two. Everybody is kicking my ass hard over this. My thought is
just that we need more facts and hard info about this case
before we are in a position to gainfully and accurately separate
the wheat from the chaff in this pilot report. -None- of us has
"all" the facts on this case. I'm hoping that the upcoming
discussion between the principles involved (Maussan, Kolbeck and
Franz) will prove to be enlightening and even stimulating.

In the meantime, I've been more than a little pissed because it
really is a bit premature to nail the coffin lid shut on Maussan
& Co. By dismissing them without first having _all_ the facts in
hand and judging them as _intentional_ liars and hoaxers without
first giving them a chance to speak and to defend themselves, we
are reduced to acting like nothing more than a cliche 'mob' from
an old Western movie. Unnerstan where I'm coming from dere
amigo? If it's not going to be a 'fair fight' there shouldn't be
any fight.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable. Although many of my
friends find my stance and behavior cryptic. So be it. A couple
of things got me mad and some others rubbed my fur the wrong
way. I do what I do because I have to follow the dictates of my
own conscience/better judgement. Not to say I'm always right
though. Lord knows I 'miss' the high mark about as often than I
'hit' it.  ;)

>When I was an investigator, I concentrated on
>"weeding out" the hoaxes (which I found to be very few and far
>between) and the misperceptions. If we believe that there is a
>genuine signal there, it does nought but good to increase the
>ratio of that signal to the ever-present noise.

And that is precisely what I hope will happen in the upcoming
thread. My only 'problem' so far is; many are ready to dismiss
it without having heard _both_ sides. It is why I'm waving red
flags all over the place.

>Nowhere in Capt. Franz' post do I see an intimation that he has
>set out to do nothing but expose hoaxes, or be a "debunker" in
>the pejorative sense. In any case, the case at hand will live or
>die by the facts, and not by what motivations you or I ascribe
>to those presenting the facts.

Amen! I agree and I share your hope that enough fact/information
will come forth to allow all of us to make an intelligent
determination for ourselves as to the merits of this case. At
least we'll _know_ the reasons why we are 'putting it to sleep'.

The People's Court is in session!  ;)

>And I have to say that I find it ironic to hear this coming from
>someone who is hell-bent on weeding out those in the abductions
>database who may have imagined their experiences. This strikes
>me as a form of "debunking" in and of itself...

You're not alone in your confusion, Jim. You have to see the
notes I got from Dick and Royce. Yikes! They were so hot they
set the residual methane trapped in the fibers of my week-old
undies ablaze! I had to put the fire out with an ice pick!  <g>

>>Jaime Maussan and Enrique Kolbeck are in the process of
>>subscribing to this List so that they can post responses
>>directly to your _slanderous_ and up until now, one-sided,
>>accusations.

>Careful, John, I'm sure you meant to say, "potentially
>slanderous"... what has happened to your normally even-handed
>approach? Unless you know a lot more than has been posted here,
>it seems awfully early to be taking sides...

Yes, Jim. It certainly is awfully early to be taking sides.

Again, I agree with you completely. And _yes_ I have more info
that I have been privy to than I have revealed in public. But as
I stated in an earlier post, I do not wish to be cast in the role
of "Monkey-in-the-middle" or to presume to speak for Maussan,
Kolbeck or Ruano. They are all fully capable of doing that for
themselves.

More than most, I want to know the truth about all this. Based
on what I believed to be _credible_ testimony from _credible
witnesses (a commercial airline pilot and an air traffic
controller) I touted this case in public. Both here on the List
and over the airwaves on SDI. You bet I want to know who is
telling the truth and who isn't. I put my own mutton chops down
on the line over this case. Whoever is lying has no idea how
large of a brand new  'orifice' I am going to chew them if I
find out that I've been deceived.

"I pity da fool!"

Let's wait and see what develops. It should prove to be an
educational and an extremely interesting exchange - to observe.
And man, don't be so hard on me! If nothing else, rest assured
that I always work hard at making sure that my head and my heart
are in the 'right' place and that when I do make a mistake (or
fall flat on my face) at least it is honest and with the best of
intentions. And you know what they say about the road to Hell.
eh?

It has been my stone to carry that I genuinely care about a
great many things. Not the least of which is people. Let's see
what all these guys have to say.

Warmest regards to you from cold New York City...


John










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                      Response To FOIA Request 6/22/03

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:24:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:26:53 -0500
Subject: Response To FOIA Request 6/22/03


To: robert.richardson@dia.mil


TO:     Mr. Robert P. Richardson
        DIA Freedom of Information Manager
        Headquarters, U. S. Defense Intelligence Agency
        Washington, DC  20340-5100

FROM:  Larry W. Bryant
       3518 Martha Custis Drive
       Alexandria, VA  22302

DATE:  December 22, 2003

Preparatory to my pursuing judicial review of DIA Chief of Staff
William M. Thompson's rejection of my "inadequate-records-
search" appeal (see, quoted below, the text of his undated
letter to me, received circa Dec. 4th), and preparatory to my
seeking formal congressional inquiry into this ongoing DIA-
UFOgate, I hereby submit this e-formatted letter as a formal,
written FOIA request that you send me a copy of the entire
contents of the DIA-managed case file on both my FOIA request of
June 22, 2003, and Mr. Thompson's appeal-action thereon -- said
contents to include all correspondence, intra-/interoffice
memoranda, memoranda for record, minutes of meetings, briefings'
notes, e-mail, memoranda of telephone conversations, talking-
point papers, records-search tasking documents (and all
responses thereto), document-transmittal slips, decision
memoranda, policy guidance, legal opinions, interagency
coordination documents, teletype messages, investigatory
reports, all records-archives referrals, and all records-
disposition documents.

Since your agency's failure to publicly account for the current
whereabouts of any U. S. defense-attache records pertaining to
the reported incident of "hostile aerial craft's" (a.k.a. "UFO")
interference with certain U. S. spaceborne  satellites during
the summer of 1975 carries the same mismanagement weight as,
say, an agency's unaccounted-for loss of a briefcase/laptop
computer loaded with TOP SECRET nuclear-weapons data, I ask that
you assign a fast-track schedule for processing this request.

By snail-mail, I'm sending to you a signed printout of this letter.


LARRY W. BRYANT
Columnist for the Internet web site of http://www.ufocity.com


Copies furnished to:

Mark S. Zaid, Esq. (Washington, D.C.)

Peter Robbins, Editor-in-Chief, UFOcity.com

Chairman, U. S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence


TEXT OF MR. THOMPSON'S LETTER OF DECEMBER 2003

Dear Mr. Bryant:

This responds to your Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) appeal
dated 13 July 2003. In your letter, you appeal the adequacy of
the search conducted by personnel from the Defense Intelligence
Agency (DIA) pursuant to your request dated 22 June 2003. Your
letter is a request for a final decision under the FOIA.

DIA personnel verified the search procedures used to locate the
documents you requested and diligently searched for records by
conducting a second search in response to your appeal. We were
unable to locate any records.

Based on the above information and after careful review of your
appeal, relevant documents, and the governing law, I find that
the search conducted for the documents you requested was
adequate under the FOIA. If you consider this a denial of your
appeal, you may seek judicial review in accordance with 5 U.S.C.
Section 552(a)(4)(B).








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             Re: UFO Expert Joins Next Hunt For Ogopogo - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 19:19:32 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:30:01 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Expert Joins Next Hunt For Ogopogo - McCoy


>From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:58:47 -0800
>Subject: UFO Expert Joins Next Hunt For Ogopogo

>Hi List

>Here is something you might find of interest. A major newspaper,
>the Vancouver Sun, just wrote an article on an upcoming
>expedition I will be on with the Legend Hunters in coming August
>2004.

>One thing I will say the paper got wrong was when I was asked if
>I believed in the Ogopogo. I certainly did not say I "didn't"
>believe it, but rather it is like UFOs or anything else. I
>certainly do believe there could be a unknown creature roaming
>the lake. Also they got the part wrong about how many listeners
>hear me every month which is way up from what was reported. But
>all in all, I was happy to see the newspaper run the article.
>Should be exciting come August.

<snip>

>UFO Expert Joins Next Hunt For Ogopogo

>Okanagan, Searchers to use sonar-equipped boats, remote-control
>camera, divers in August.

>By David Wylie
>Sterling News Service

>Vancouver Sun Newspaper
>Saturday, December 20, 2003
>www.vancouversun.com

<snip>

Hello, all, Brian.

At the risk of getting Scots o' the Great Glen all riled up,
including a few relations of mine, there is much more evidence
of Ogopogo than Nessie.I'm of the opinion that Ogopogo is a
species of Sturgeon, My Grampa McCoy had a Picture of a Snake
river Sturgeon, caught by 10 men, the head was on the seat of a
15 ft haywagon with the tail hanging over the back about 2ft.His
mother my gr.Gramma McCoy was a highland Scot from the banks of
Loch Ness.-North side, she regarded any one from the southside
and points south as Lowland. She never saw Nessie,but talked
about Nessie, to Gramps.He told me a couple of tales.

I don't know what happened to the picture. It was near Starbuck,
Wa. 1910,where Gramps drove a freight wagon. Be that as it may,
Good hunting!


GT McCoy







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                          Bassett On SDI - 12-27-03

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:34:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:34:59 -0500
Subject: Bassett On SDI - 12-27-03


Strange Days... Indeed
NewsTalk 1010 CFRB Toronto
Saturday, December 27, 9 pm EST

This coming Saturday, Stephen Bassett, will do an extended
appearance on Strange Days... Indeed to review events and issues
of the past ten years relating to the disclosure movement and
take questions from the listening audience.


Strange Days...Indeed is webcast at:

www.cfrb.com

1-866-866-7387
1-416-872-1010

A chronological list of many of the events which will be
discussed can be found at:

www.paradigmclock.com/CFRB_12-12-03.html

____________________________________________________


Hilton Washington DC North/Gaithersburg
www.x-conference.com
_____________________________________________________

Paradigm Research Group
E-mail: ParadigmRG@aol.com
URL: www.paradigmclock.com
Cell: 202-431-2459
4938 Hampden Lane, #161
Bethesda, MD 20814
_____________________________________________________

"There is almost no limit to what you can accomplish,
if you are willing to give away the credit."
_____________________________________________________

"Intellectual passion is found at the intersection
of fact and implication."







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              Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO? - Auchettl

From: John Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 02:47:17 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:43:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO? - Auchettl


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:39:01 -0600
>Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:20:45 -0500
>Subject: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO?

>Several hours after posting a response to Jim Lippard, who
>disputes my assertion that Fortean Times is largely anti-UFO, I
>happened to sit down to read the most recent issue (#179,
>January 2004).

<snip>

>For good or ill, FT has formed its own, quite distinct identity,
>moving in a direction that should, in most ways that matter,
>warm skeptics' hearts.

Hi Jerry & List,

Well said, alas I see no end to this drift to the 'skeptics
heart' while the FT vestibule is branch stacked with pelicans. I
hope FT does not misplace it's way while it indulges in a flirt
and a fling on the pelican trail (or was that its entrail).

Still a great read, but it could be better.


Regards to all,

John Auchettl








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                       Merry Christmas From Ufology UK

From: Chris Whitlock <ufoupdates@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:46:49 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:47:07 -0500
Subject: Merry Christmas From Ufology UK


Hi Everybody,

Joe McGonagle and myself Chris Whitlock would like to thank
everyone for their support over the last year for Ufology UK

www.ufology.org.uk

and UfologyinUK

http://www.smartgroups.com/group/group.cfm?GID=292370

and for the discussion on this List.

Ufology UK suffered many loss's this year and we hope that 2004
is not so tragic.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year


Regards

Joe McGonagle
Chris Whitlock







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              Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:42:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:53:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO? - Lehmberg


>From: Roy Hale - The Lost Haven <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:53:51 -0000
>Subject: Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO?

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:39:01 -0600
>>Subject: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO?

>>Patient and gentle Listfolk:

>>Several hours after posting a response to Jim Lippard, who
>>disputes my assertion that Fortean Times is largely anti-UFO, I
>>happened to sit down to read the most recent issue (#179,
>>January 2004).

>>It turns out that FT has now initiated a column titled
>>"Ufology". The columnists are David Clarke and Andy Roberts, and
>>the content is pretty much what you'd expect, with snarky
>>references to the abduction "craze", the "Alice in Wonderland
>>nature of ufology", and the like, and the predictable
>>championing of prosaic explanations. In short, not all that
>>different from what a consumer of Skeptical Inquirer is
>>subjected to, or for that matter readers of UpDates posts from
>>the above-mentioned.

>I and many more gave up reading the FT years back, its stance is
>very sceptical on UFOs, loves to have writers who do nothing
>more than mock the subject, and there seems to be an abundance
>of that type here in the UK.

I would call it an overabundance, sir, of peace-disturbing
sociopaths... elitist intellectualizing cowards perpetrating a
kind "fraud in reverse" (deceptively unusual enough to, this
far, avoid prosecution) to provide for themselves,
coincidentally, an ill-got gain! There is no service done here
but to the perpetrators, and they operate to discount and
dismiss and deny that which the rest of us knows is there and is
_not_ getting a fair investigation.

Why are we remotely tolerating them in our serious midst? They
are the new court-jesters, they're in the king's vest-pocket
employ, and they caper and dance to distract us from their
disintegrating 12th Century foundations, empty cognitive data
banks, and unethical duplicitous behaviors! They're dirty as
hell, and they _gloat_ about it...

You can't have this kind of data pollution tolerated and call it
scientific investigation when the end result of that pollution
can _only_ come down on one side (_their_ side) of the equation!
Their foregone conclusion is that UFOs are a fantasy and anyone
taking them seriously is mentally feeble. This is the only,
possible, result of their scurrilous prosecutions! It's like
expecting the Ku Klux Klan to be able to remotely justify Civil
Rights for Black Americans while planting, all the while, bogus
justifiactions for their inferiority! Why are these people
remotely tolerated as anything more than ethically
reprehensible!

I think Burns should sue in civil court for the damages brought
about by having his time, money, and energy wasted... seriously,
these smirking insolents can be thankful I don't have the money
to make their lives as miserable as they make us for jerking us
all around in this manner. An accounting of their actions and
activities thus far is demanded and expected to be received, or
why should they be taken, remotely, seriously... _ever_ again?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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             Re: British Ufology On Self Destruction - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:57:18 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:13:04 -0500
Subject: Re: British Ufology On Self Destruction - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:45:52 +0000
>Subject: Re: British Ufology On Self Destruction

>>From: Chris Parr <cparr@talk21.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:41:45 -0000
>>Subject: British Ufology On Self Destruction

>>Ufological cases must be merited on the gathered evidence
>>obtained. Therefore, on this basis, the Sheffield UFO incident
>>must fall into the category of 'X-Files Fantasies' manifesting
>>into 'Genuine UFO Incidents'.

>>Serious UFO research is dramatically affected by the 'Max Fenig
>>Factor' and any 'Blue Hare' style hoaxes must be celebrated as a
>>study tool to expose the bizarre stereotypical claims of the 'X-
>>Files Fantasists' within British UFO research.

>>Cumbria UFO Research has been hindered by the mass of fantasy
>>evidence accumulated by current "Quest UK UFO Investigator of
>>the Year" in Sharon Larkin.

>>If a Doctor was guilty of malpractice, then any hoax to expose
>>the total ineptitude would be a justified 'Whistle-Blower'
>>exercise.

>>Ridding Ufology of its of radical thinkers and people who
>>understand the crazy plots of the X-Files fantasists will
>>seriously damage the eco system of British Ufological Studies.

>I am delighted that at least one person is prepared to join in a
>sensible discussion about the value of experimental hoaxes in
>ufology. So far the American side has been dominated by Mr
>Lemburgh and his bizarre linguistic exhibitions.

>Is anybody else prepared to stand up for, or put a rational case
>against, carefully prepared, executed and recorded experiments
>to determine the accuracy of UFO researchers' work?


That's Mr. 'Lehmberg', sir, and here's another "BLE" provoked
for your obviously needed edification... the discredited
eugenics programs of the 30's also had a rational case, was
carefully prepared, recorded and executed (...so to speak!).
Nazis would use it as a logical justification for their efforts
later on. I figure that no less can be done for your program of
deliberate ufological obfuscation... dress a pig in an evening
gown, Mr. Rimmer, it's no less a pig.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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                 Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 08:09:05 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:16:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:52:50 +0000
>Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:05:00 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:35:50 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Randles On Clarke & Roberts

>>>If you were to read the articles on the Magonia website to which
>>>I referred, you will see that the Warminster photographic hoax
>>>was indeed a controlled scientific experiment.

>>Yeah - that's right, send me to a Nazi/Skinhead site for
>>information on Jewry... (a heavy handed metaphore but the paint
>>sticks)

>This is more than a "heavy handed metaphor", and I find it
>totally offensive. However it seems all too typical of the level
>of Mr Lembergh's contributions, which is why I shall not respond
>to any more of his intemperate postings.

Awww! Upset by a little metaphor? How predictably convenient!
What's offensive to you, really, is my rational dismissal of
your senselessly canted pedantics! I'm so far up your nose on
this you feel boot-heels on your too-cultured chin! <LOL>!
Blithe toleration of the unbalanced and well biased
duplicitous... now _there's_ "totally offensive", sir" -
 _there's_ your bald intemperance!

>I am glad to see that Chris Parr of the Cumbrian UFO group in
>the UK has opened what might become a rather more serious thread
>for debate of this issue.

Flap-doodle!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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             Re: British Ufology On Self Destruction - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:11:38 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:33:14 -0500
Subject: Re: British Ufology On Self Destruction - Lehmberg


>From: Jack Wainwright <meugher2003@yahoo.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 13:05:28 +0000 (GMT)
>Subject: Re: British Ufology On Self Destruction

>>From: Roy Hale - The Lost Haven
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:46:11 -0000
>>Subject: Re: British Ufology On Self Destruction

>>'Blue Hare' style hoaxes " as a serious tool for exposing X-file
>>fantasists? How would Mr Parr have felt, if the Isle of Man
>>incident was nothing more than a hoax perpetrated by certain
>>UK UFO researchers, just to see if the local UFO researchers
>>investigating the case, were up to it.

>As part of a crop circle hoaxing team I know just how easy it is
>to fabricate hoaxes which will fool the most skeptical of
>enquirers. How does does Mr Hale know that the Isle of Man
>Incident wasn't such a hoax?


A well deserved pox upon you, sir! Shouting bogus fire in a
crowded theatre is effective to see who can see through your
ruse and remain in their seats, too, I suppose, and it remains
that you're not faking _all_ those circles, Mr. Wainwright.

Your family should have stuck to making 'wains'. I'll bet you
call yourself an *artist*, even. You perform no service, sir.
Your copy of a paranormal Rembrandt is not a Rembrandt. It's
just a distraction and a peace disturbance. ...a lie by another
name!

...Pox on _you_!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.









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                Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:48:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:43:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Clark


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>,
>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:20:11 -0700
>Subject: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:39:40 -0700
>From: James J. Lippard <lippard-skeptic@discord.org>
>To: skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu
>Subj: FWD (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?


>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:41:47 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>Incidentally, a note to all:

>>The article is "Starbaby," not "sTARBABY." The latter was just a
>>stylistic thing Curt Fuller insisted on, but was never meant to
>>denote the actual title, which ought to be rendered in
>>conventional form.

>Actually the "sTARBABY" form originated with Dennis Rawlins, and
>he usually referred to the article in that way in contemporary
>correspondence, though he would occasionally refer to it as just
>"SB." If author's intent and usage counts, then the title is
>"sTARBABY." Rawlins is a fan of wordplay, puns, neologisms, and
>abbreviations--his correspondence and writings regarding the
>Mars Effect, as well as his publication DIO, are full of them.

Well, yes and no. The form "sTARBABY" in the title came from
Curt Fuller, as I have reported.  I recall vividly the day he
stepped into my office with a mischievous grin and showed me
how he wanted the title to appear.  He was quite proud of it.

For all my respect for Curt - as fine a man as my father was,
which is saying a great deal -  I didn't like it because I
thought the word-play behind the neologism "Starbaby" (Rawlins's
invention, as Jim notes) was clear enough on its own and didn't
need to draw attention to itself in so ham-handed a fashion.
 But of course Curt was the boss, and so it went, and so, sadly,
even today people are referring to "sTARBABY," just as I feared
all those years ago.

In the original manuscript, which sits just to my right as I
type these words, Rawlins renders the word "Starbaby." (A sample
sentence: "Naturally, [CSICOP head Paul] Kurtz'[s] solution was
much simpler: just don't admit that his pet Starbaby _was_ a
loss.")  It became "sTARBABY" in the published text at Fuller's
insistence.

Possibly, the confusion stems from the fact that after the
article was published, Rawlins himself may have begun
using Fuller's form of the word he'd made up.

 >The reference is, of course, to the Uncle Remus story of "Br'er
>Rabbit and the Tar Baby," a reference which Rawlins also used
>when he titled his unedited piece in Skeptical Inquirer "Remus
>Extremus" (SI, Winter 1981-82). The fact that that piece is
>unedited will give you some idea of what his correspondence
>looked like.

If you go back to the cover page of "Starbaby" (published
originally in the October 1981 issue of Fate), you'll see
characters out of the Tar Baby story depicted thereon. Curt
Fuller found them in an old, public-domain edition of a volume
by Joel Chandler Harris, who used the Remus character to relate
African American folktales which often included the trickster
character Br'er Rabbit.

As the one who initiated the Starbaby project, dealt with
Rawlins, and did all the editing and fact-checking, I
accumulated a huge mass of material related to the article.  I
still have it, and it includes many Rawlins letters to me and
others.  I am probably some sort of expert on Rawlins's prose,
for whatever that is or isn't worth.

You're right - he had, and has, a brilliant way with words and
word-play (he also needed, and no doubt still needs, an editor;
at times his prose can be, shall we say, opaque, even Joycean).
A bright and very funny man.  I have nothing but good memories
of working with him over the months it took to get the article
written, edited, documented, and published.


Jerry Clark








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                          Secrecy News -- 12/23/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:25:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:54:39 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 12/23/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 111
December 23, 2003


**      CRS WARNS AGAINST PUBLIC ACCESS
**      CRS REPORT ON ENEMY COMBATANTS
**      THE THREAT OF THE UNALIGNED TERRORIST
**      DTRA SHIFTS GROUND ON FOIA POLICY
**      THE POLITICS OF EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE
**      GOVERNMENT SECRECY EXPANDS UNDER BUSH


CRS WARNS AGAINST PUBLIC ACCESS

Pending legislative proposals to permit broad public
dissemination of Congressional Research Service reports would
interfere with the agency's ability to support congressional
needs and would compromise its effectiveness, according to an
internal CRS memorandum on public access to CRS products.

Direct public access to CRS reports would place CRS "in an
intermediate position responding directly to constituents" and
thereby "threaten the dialog on policy issues between Members
and their constituents that was envisioned by the Constitution."

The CRS memo also suggests that public access could place at
risk its constitutionally guaranteed protections on speech and
debate.

Furthermore, wholesale dissemination of CRS reports "would
inevitably generate a significant number of comments, questions,
and concerns from the public," thereby resulting in a "reduction
in service to Congress," the memo warned.

A copy of the memo was obtained by Secrecy News.  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2003/12/crs.html

Most of the arguments presented in the CRS memo are refuted by
the record of the U.S. General Accounting Office, another
congressional support agency that publishes reports online daily
with no adverse impact on performance or productivity.


CRS REPORT ON ENEMY COMBATANTS

A recent Congressional Research Service report provides
additional background to the current controversy over how to
deal with individuals such as Jose Padilla, who are American
citizens but are also deemed by the President to be "enemy
combatants."

See "Detention of American Citizens as Enemy Combatants" by
Jennifer Elsea, Congressional Research Service, January 30,
2003:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL31724.pdf

Direct public access to this report has not been authorized by
Congress.


THE THREAT OF THE UNALIGNED TERRORIST

"If  you think the terrorist threat stems from organized groups,
I think you miss the problem we see today," emailed M.E. Bowman,
deputy general counsel of the Federal Bureau of Investigation,
in response to a remark made in the previous issue of Secrecy
News.

"The 9/11 hijackers were not an organization.  Nor did they
associate themselves overtly with al Qaeda, which sponsored
them. And this proves the point!" Mr. Bowman wrote in a recent
article.

"The larger threat is not al Qaeda, but the person who, while
otherwise leading a normal life somewhere in the world, decides
to become a terrorist."

The basis for this judgment, and its implications, were explored
in "Some-Time, Part-Time and One-Time Terrorism" by M.E. Bowman,
published in Intelligencer: Journal of U.S. Intelligence
Studies, a publication of the Association of Former Intelligence
Officers (AFIO), Winter/Spring 2003.

A copy is posted here, with the kind permission of AFIO:

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/bowman.pdf


DTRA SHIFTS GROUND ON FOIA POLICY

Attorney General Ashcroft's October 2001 memorandum on Freedom
of Information Act policy does not provide any new legal
authority to withhold requested information, the Defense Threat
Reduction Agency conceded in response to a FOIA appeal last
week.

"Our reference to the Attorney General's memorandum in this
respect was an error," a DTRA official wrote.

The Agency is still weighing whether or not to release the
requested document, an unclassified report on lessons learned
from the 2001 anthrax attacks (SN, 12/15/03).  See the latest
DTRA letter here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2003/12/dtra121903.pdf


THE POLITICS OF EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE

Disputes between the executive and legislative branches over
congressional access to information are the subject of an
excellent new volume by Louis Fisher, a scholar of American
government at the Congressional Research Service, entitled "The
Politics of Executive Privilege."

Fisher explores the principles and the profound stakes involved
in such disputes, and the diverse forms that they have taken
over the years.

"Untidy as they are, political battles between Congress and the
executive branch are generally effective in resolving executive
privilege disputes," he concludes.  "Courts play a minor role,
which is good for the judiciary and good for the country."

He adds an observation that is suddenly timely, because of the
Supreme Court's announcement last week that it would hear the
Bush Administration's appeal for secrecy in connection with the
Vice President's Energy Task Force:

"There is no reason to think that greater involvement by the
courts would be constructive or helpful.  The risk is great that
the Supreme Court, in trying to settle one issue, will reach
upwards and announce standards and doctrines that are too broad
and awkwardly drawn." (p. 258).

"The Politics of Executive Privilege" by Louis Fisher was
published this month by Carolina Academic Press.  For more
information, see:

http://www.cap-press.com/bookinfo.php3?id=1329


GOVERNMENT SECRECY EXPANDS UNDER BUSH

"The [Bush] administration has been unusually successful keeping
its policy deliberations out of public view, and millions of
government documents -- including many historical records
previously available -- have been removed from the public
domain," observes Dana Milbank in the Washington Post today.

See "Under Bush, Expanding Secrecy":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22764-2003Dec22.html



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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              Re: British Ufology On Self Destruction - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:45:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:56:23 -0500
Subject: Re: British Ufology On Self Destruction - Kaeser


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:45:52 +0000
>Subject: Re: British Ufology On Self Destruction

>>From: Chris Parr <cparr@talk21.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:41:45 -0000
>>Subject: British Ufology On Self Destruction

<snip>

>>If a Doctor was guilty of malpractice, then any hoax to expose
>>the total ineptitude would be a justified 'Whistle-Blower'
>>exercise.

>>Ridding Ufology of its of radical thinkers and people who
>>understand the crazy plots of the X-Files fantasists will
>>seriously damage the eco system of British Ufological Studies.

Since when is "hoaxing" a 'whistle-blower' exercise? Ridding
ufology of the fringe beliefs that have evolved over the past
half century is a goal we could probably agree on, but not to
the extent of hoaxing to prove a point. Somehow that doesn't
sound like a scientific process to me.

>I am delighted that at least one person is prepared to join in a
>sensible discussion about the value of experimental hoaxes in
>ufology. So far the American side has been dominated by Mr
>Lemburgh and his bizarre linguistic exhibitions.

>Is anybody else prepared to stand up for, or put a rational case
>against, carefully prepared, executed and recorded experiments
>to determine the accuracy of UFO researchers' work?

That's a great straw man that you've set up. How could one
argue with a "carefully prepared, executed and recorded
experiments to determine the accuracy of UFO researchers' work"?
I would suggest that experimental hoaxes, designed to deceive
and simply make a point, aren't an appropriate approach.

But maybe that's just me.


Steve







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                LOOK Magazine 1955 - Man Made Flying Saucers

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:37:32 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:57:46 -0500
Subject: LOOK Magazine 1955 - Man Made Flying Saucers



http://www.thule.org/page2.html


Okay, ignore the nonsense on this site.
Of note is the LOOK Magazine article and detailed
graphics.

It's fun to look back and see how people envisioned
the future.


Best,

Greg







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                    Re: BBC Timewatch Programme - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 19:47:37 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:58:41 -0500
Subject: Re: BBC Timewatch Programme - Roberts


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:29:15 -0000
>Subject: Re: BBC Timewatch Programme

Pilgrims,

Stuart wrote:

>I have been fortunate enough to obtain a preview copy of the
>programme and have now watched it.
>snip<
>No question I did enjoy it

Why wouldn't you?

>I am not trying to be partisan or confrontational or indeed
>"smart" when I say I was gently encouraged by the programme. I
>couldn't detect any particular agenda on the part of the

That's because there was no 'agenda'. It was meant to be a look
at ufology in its totality, not the particular pink half of the
drainpipe either sceptics or believers stick to. It was, if you
like and in the context of the current updates bugaboo, a
fortean look at ufology.

>Indeed it is Andy himself who pokes a little bit of fun at the
>MOD when running through the list of natural explanations for
>sightings that the MOD dreamed up after the Smythe/Johnston
>Vampire sighting in 1953, sounding incredulous as he refers to a
>"mock moon" or a "mock sun".

Sadly it's not me - I've been trying to get Stuart to believe
this off list, but he won't have it. Radical misperception in
action here kids! Man mispreceives stimulus and still won't
accept the truth when it's pointed to him. Oh, and it's not Dave
either Stuart.

>Yes, watch it. 9th. January, BBC 2 9:00pm.

Yes, do. It'll give the list something of meaning to discuss for
a change.


Happy Trails

Andy








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                 Re: Flying Saucer To Be Developed - Hallal

From: Mike Hallal <mikehallal@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:40:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:42:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Flying Saucer To Be Developed - Hallal


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:41:51 -0800
>Subject: Flying Saucer To Be Developed

>Source: Short News

>http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=35329&rubrik1=Science&rubrik2=Engineerin
>g&rubrik3=Air%20and%20Space%20Travel&sort=1&sparte=4

>12/22/2003 12:14 AM

>Flying Saucer to be Developed

>Russian engineers are working with the US Navy to develop what
>looks like the first functional flying saucer. The craft will be
>tested in 2007 in Patuxent River, Maryland. The saucer is called
>the Ekip.

>http://www.ekip-aviation-concern.com/

This one fits descriptions of some UFOs - water hovering, slow
moving, low flying, rows of windows, fins, etc. Check out the
brochure link at the ekip homepage. Here are specs from:

http://www.ekip-aviation-concern.com/eng-b/12.shtml

AUTOMATIC CONTROL PATROL AND RECONNAISSANCE
FLYING VEHICLES "EKIP-AULA L2-3"

Characteristic Parameter Value

1. Full takeoff weight, kg 280-350

2. Payload, kg 20-50

3. Maximum flight speed, km/h 300

4. Cruiser flight speed, km/h 180

5. Flight altitude, m 3000

6. Maximum flying time, hours 2

7. Fuel weight, kg 105

8. Length, m 2.03

9. Span, m 3.66

10. Height, m 0.71

11. Engines 1 (MD 120)

12. Maximum thrust, kg 120

13. Maximum thrust of control engines, kg 10

14. Air-cushion area, m2 1.71

15. Pressure on the runway, kg/m2 205

16. Runway length, m Up to 160

17. Takeoff speed, km/h 108

18. Runway type
Ground, water


Mike Hallal
POINT-BLANK INC.
781-595-2948 (office)
mikehallal@comcast.net







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              Re: British Ufology On Self-Destruction - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <vanguard@preciousmemories1.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:25:20 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:00:19 -0500
Subject: Re: British Ufology On Self-Destruction - Hebert


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:45:52 +0000
>Subject: Re: British Ufology On Self-Destruction

>>From: Chris Parr <cparr@talk21.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:41:45 -0000
>>Subject: British Ufology On Self-Destruction

>Is anybody else prepared to stand up for, or put a rational case
>against, carefully prepared, executed and recorded experiments
>to determine the accuracy of UFO researchers' work?

Hi, John:

In my studies of UFOs and related phenomena, I have found it
necessary to identify and understand potential IFO's (Identified
Flying Objects) in an effort to sort the wheat from the chaff. I
have spent many years launching and video taping/photographing
IFO's such as balloons, small remote-controlled flying objects,
objects thrown into the air, etc. I have also spent 6-7 years
videotaping/photographing flying objects commonly seen in the
sky such as birds, insects, debris, conventional aircraft as
well as cataloging video and photographic anomalies that may be
misidentified as UFO's (IFO Database). This is only a small
side-line of my main research - yet to be presented. You can
imagine the flack (and support) I have encountered. In fact, I
was once placed in _your_ company ('debunker') by one individual
on this list. ;>

Through my work, I have become well aware of the accuracy and
lack of on the part of many UFO researchers and investigators.
Some researchers/investigators seem to have no idea what they
are doing while others display outstanding efforts in their
search for the truth. But, bit by bit, I have observed greater
and greater demands for accuracy and scientific analysis in UFO
research.

Because I have spent many years studying potential hoaxes and
misidentification cases, I have often thought of using my
resources to test the analysis skills of UFO researchers,
investigators and even UFO organizations. Although the
opportunities (and temptation) to conduct such tests were always
present, it goes against my morals and I felt it would only
contribute more 'noise' to the study of UFO's than make the
'signal' stronger.

We don't need more UFOs, we need the truth.


IMHO

A. Hebert







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              Re: British Ufology On Self-Destruction - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:06:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:03:23 -0500
Subject: Re: British Ufology On Self-Destruction - Rimmer


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:57:18 -0600
>Subject: Re: British Ufology On Self-Destruction

>That's Mr. 'Lehmberg', sir, and here's another "BLE" provoked
>for your obviously needed edification... the discredited
>eugenics programs of the 30's also had a rational case, was
>carefully prepared, recorded and executed (...so to speak!).
>Nazis would use it as a logical justification for their efforts
>later on. I figure that no less can be done for your program of
>deliberate ufological obfuscation... dress a pig in an evening
>gown, Mr. Rimmer, it's no less a pig.

I suppose this, along with your previous post, is yet another
example of the standard Internet debating practice of
identifying your opponent with the Nazis.


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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                           UFO Testing In Burnett?

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 20:01:13 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:15:48 -0500
Subject: UFO Testing In Burnett?



Source: Burnett County Sentinel - Wisconsin

http://www.burnettcountysentinel.com/Main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID&ArticleID
=7712

Tuesday, December 23, 2003

UFO testing in Burnett?

By Chet Newman

GRANTSBURG--"It went right alongside the highway all the way from
Highway 48 down to the Bible Camp. Then it crossed over the
highway in front of us and lowered down toward the field and
hovered there about 50 or a hundred feet above the ground."

Ted Wistrom is crystal clear about what he and Heather Berrard
saw as they were traveling south on Highway 87 from Grantsburg
at about 5 p.m. last Wednesday. They vow the aircraft, no more
than 20 feet wide or long, was moving down the west side of the
road at about 30 miles an hour.

The craft was not nearly large enough to carry people, says
Wistrom, but he also says it was dark, so exact size was hard to
tell.

Checks with officials in law enforcement and the Department of
Natural

Resourcesuncovered nothing to explain what the couple saw.

Wistrom says he knows they weren�t the only ones to see it. He
says the car in front of them slowed down, too, as did two
others behind them. Wistrom said he had planned to turn east on
Highway O, but continued south on 87 to continue watching the
aircraft.

It made no sound

He says it wasn�t very high in the air. He could see what looked
like propulsion units, sort of like tubes, protruding out of the
bottom of the craft that were "tilted toward the ground, like
that�s what was holding it up." It made no sound, he says.

There were four rectangular lights on what appeared to be the
back of the craft, he said. They spanned the entire rear, with
the lights immediately adjacent to each other, with each one
being maybe two or two and a half feet high.

While the craft was moving, the lights were all orange. When it
began to hover over a field near the Bible camp, he said the
center left light turned blue and the center right one turned
white. The white light began to blink as it was hovering, he
says, and then the craft disappeared.

Wistrom says he can�t give an overall description of the craft,
because they only saw the underside and rear.

�Just kooky stuff�

Wistrom says friends had been telling him of seeing strange air
vehicles over the last couple of months, and claim they have
seen military-type vehicles at Crex Meadows before the snow
came. He laughed off their remarks as "just kooky stuff," he
says.

Now, he says, he thinks "they�re doing some kind of testing
around here."

DNR employees at Crex Meadows say there haven�t been any unusual
vehicles there.

After the strange vehicle disappeared, Wistrom says he and
Berrard headed east when a low-flying airplane flew by at low
level. That plane, he said, had a blue-and-white light
underneath and red lights on the wingtips, but nothing like the
much larger rectangular lights on the strange air vehicle.










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               Re: British Ufology On Self-Destruction - Burns

From: Max Burns <max.burns@ntlworld.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 04:01:54 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:23:09 -0500
Subject: Re: British Ufology On Self-Destruction - Burns


>From: Roy Hale - The Lost Haven <roy@thelosthaven.co.uk>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:46:11 -0000
>Subject: Re: British Ufology On-Self Destruction

>>From: Chris Parr <cparr@talk21.com>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:41:45 -0000
>>Subject: British Ufology On Self-Destruction

>Chris Wrote:

>>Ufological cases must be merited on the gathered evidence
>>obtained.

You have not seen my evidence

>>Therefore, on this basis, the Sheffield UFO incident
>>must fall into the category of 'X-Files Fantasies' manifesting
>>into 'Genuine UFO Incidents'.


Roy EBK and dear listers,

Mr Parr does not know me, and has never contacted or spoken to
me on a personal basis or regarding my research - ever.

Mr Parr, why don't you comment on the large amount of provable
discrepancies in the research of Dr Clarke, and there are many.
You have not produced one _fact_ that shows that my research is
false. Indeed, I may well speculate that you know very little
about the case other than what you are being spoon-fed. Its ok,
digging it up, but what evidence do have have to disprove
anything that I have said - bout the case or anything that has
been written recently, on UpDates?

Indeed, as always I am willing to discuss the facts of my
article, which can be re-checked by anyone who cares to do so. I
am also willing to debate the Sheffield Case, against any of the
hoaxers version of events. It can also be shown in the debate,
up close and personal, that it is indeed your mates Roberts &
Clarke, who have not been honest concerning the facts
surrounding the Sheffield case.

I can bring my evidence any time, any place, anywhere, can
Clarke & Roberts?

>Sheffield UFO Incident falls into X-files Category?

In true UpDates festive spirit, I hope that readers would be
amused to know which journalist brought the phrase "X-Files"
into the Sheffield case?

No prizes for guessing.

Dr Clarke's, Newspaper. Tuesday March 25th 1997, front page The
Sheffield Star.


"Moors Plane Crash Riddle

Emergency services from four counties were today involved in a
massive operation to solve an X-Files style air crash riddle in
South Yorkshire."


>Having seen the title of the subject of this mail, I thought I
>would be reading about UK Researchers, and their unsavoury
>exploits with UFOs and such like, but I soon realised, that the
>mail is actually quite hypocritical in itself, and if one reads
>between the lines, is quite damming on certain UK UFO
>researchers.

Roy, well said.

>>Serious UFO research is dramatically affected by the 'Max Fenig
>>Factor' and any 'Blue Hare' style hoaxes must be celebrated as a
>>study tool to expose the bizarre stereotypical claims of the 'X-
>>Files Fantasists' within British UFO research.

>How closely has Chris Parr communicated with Max Burns,
>regarding his ongoing research into the Sheffield Case?

See previous answer

>Amazing style of writing here, very tabloid, and one should
>commend Mr Parr for mentioning " Serious UFO research " and "
>'Blue Hare' style hoaxes " as a serious tool for exposing X-file
>fantasists?

>If any UK UFO researcher actively admits to hoaxing UFO
>incidents, and then goes on to write books, claiming they have
>settled all questions to old cases, would you be the first to
>jump up and say you believed all of their answers, or would you
>have some doubt, due to their hoax cases? >Cumbria UFO Research
>has been hindered by the mass of fantasy >evidence accumulated
>by current "Quest UK UFO Investigator of >the Year" in Sharon
>Larkin.

>This sure is one big hit list in this mail, I have never have
>met Sharon Larkin, but before dissecting her on this List,
>perhaps one should be courteous enough to send her a copy of
>your mail, so she can have the respect of reply to your
>condemnation of her research practices?

Its to simple to just contact the person concerned, best just
wildly speculate about them, with rumours spread around by
sceptical hoaxers who are just doing ufology a favour and
service.

>>If a Doctor was guilty of malpractice, then any hoax to expose
>>the total ineptitude would be a justified 'Whistle-Blower'
>>exercise.

>Mr parr, how far are you prepared to go in your support of known
>UFO Case hoaxes, and those who carry them out?

>>Ridding Ufology of its of radical thinkers and people who
>>understand the crazy plots of the X-Files fantasists will
>>seriously damage the eco system of British Ufological Studies.

I can say this, at _no_ time did I use any part of the "Blue
Hare" attempted hoax data as part of any presentation or report
concerning my investigation of the |Sheffield case.

Indeed, it has shown, as far as most are concerned that the
facts show that I do indeed, check facts before using them in my
research.

So, I must have passed the ultra secret dodge the sceptics, true
or false helping the subject game.

Mr Parr, have you actually got a question? Or is it more
circular rhetoric?


Max Burns,

Merry New Year to all.








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   Dec > Dec 24

                 Re: Flying Saucer To Be Developed - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 07:04:48 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:19:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Flying Saucer To Be Developed - Connors


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:41:51 -0800
>Subject: Flying Saucer To Be Developed

<snip>

Of course Alfred C. Loedding (originator of Project SIGN) was
making and flying models of low-aspect ratio aircraft in disc-
shape form in early 1948 at Wright Field and they actually flew
very well. His designs were termed "Pumpkin Seed" aircraft by
others and were based upon the reports of flying discs coming
into the Sign project. Loedding would launch them in front of
the T-2 Intelligence building while people watched from the
windows.

In our book, Alfred C. Loedding And The Great Flying Saucer
Wave Of 1947 - out of print - Mike Hall and I, include photos
of these models which look very much like the "flying saucer" to
be developed. I am honored to have first generation prints of
Loedding's work taken directly from his glass slide photographs
and am proud to be an official "Loedding Family Member". <G>

Alfred Loedding was also the first director of the Jet
Propulsion Laboratory and personal close friend to Dr. Robert
Goddard and Dr. Alexander Lippisch.


Wendy Connors






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              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 20:36:34 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:14:37 -0500
Subject: Re:  Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Myers


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:12:26 -0500
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser@yahoo.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:04:47 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

Let me bottom line my position in all this:

1) I'm tired of people crying lawsuit. "I'm going to sue! I'm
going to sue!" Been there, dealt with that. Someone opens their
mouth, then they need to be man enough to step up. Since it is
being alleged that there is so much documentation and proof,
then let's see all the purported evidence. Looks like some
people have the talking part down, how actually doing the part
where we see all this purported evidence and are able to verify
it. If it turns up, this will be a monumental first for Maussan
as far as I'm concerned.

2) Maussan, Franz, neutral expert(s), and any other alleged
firsthand party members need to be involved in a moderated
debate in a public forum where we all can actually hear it and
be supplemented via the List. Hopefully, unlike Maussan's calims
with the Reed UFO Fraud, we'll actually get to hear a
debate...though I harbor serious doubts it will happen since my
many invitations for comment and/or debate about the Reed UFO
Fraud went unanswered. Perhaps it is time for me to write that
follow-up I was working on.

3) To hell with any personal bullshit, I could care less. I
don't want to hear about how Franz and the alleged two witnesses
were involved in some airline union busting crap, I don't care.
What I do care about are the facts and _proof_ of the matter.

4) John, you got my personal two-cents about this, I wasn't
beating up on you at all. If that's what you thought, then you
should have discussed that with me - since you didn't respond to
the two e-mails I sent you personally, I thought you were fine
with it.

5) I wouldn't give Maussan the time of day when it comes down to
UFOs - short of him dragging an alien body or a UFO into my
living room. When Maussan has his fingers in a pie I don't blame
anyone for instantly smelling something rancid. Maussan has
absolutely zero credibility with me as any kind of UFO
investigator based on his past track record, association with
UFO cases that anyone with common sense could tell was a bag
full of holes, and his apparent inability to conduct thorough
and competent investigations.

I've said all I'm going to say. Enough talk. The time for deeds
has past, enough talk and dancing. Bring it or go home.

Aside from that, I'd like to wish everyone a very Merry
Christmas and my hopes that the coming New Year will be much
brighter for everyone. Yes, I'm being nice - don't be too
shocked. ;-)


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM








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              Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO? - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 07:30:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:16:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO? - Connors


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:04:34 +0000
>Subject: Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO?

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:07:57 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO?

>>I agree completely with your characterization of Fortean Times,
>>which I read for about 2 years recently. I would characterize it
>>as primarily a humor magazine, more joke than serious inquiry.
>>Definitely slanted toward CSICOPian interpretation.

>In the immortal words of Mr Jerome Clark: "This tells us more
>about you than it does about Fortean Times".


John,

Perhaps you think the same doesn't apply to you? A pity, really.
Richard Hall's work and contributions to the study of Ufology
makes all your prattling and work look absolutely juvenile in
comparison. He certainly knows much more about Ufology than you
would ever be able to assimulate. He was there contributing
before you were a gleam in your parents eye. Contrary to your
own opinion, you don't come close to his knowledge or expertise.

By the way, I just listened again to your talk in England in the
70s...yeah, I have you digitized on CD making a fool out of
yourself. Perhaps that would be a great topic for my next audio
adventure on SDI. "Wanna be taken for a ride?"<G>


Wendy Connors








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   Dec > Dec 24

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 49

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:02:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:11:46 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 49



Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 8, Number 49
December 24, 2003
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: webmaster@ufoinfo.com
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


UFO HOVERS OVER A
VILLAGE IN MALAYSIA

      "An unidentified flying object was sighted hovering
over a quiet village in" Malaysia's northern Kedah state,
near the border with Thailand, "the second such sighting
there in two years, a report said on Tuesday," December
16, 2003.
      "A nine-year-old boy saw a slow-moving, disc-like
object about the size of a car emitting a greenish light"
and "hovering in the air over Banggol Cicar village, near
the town of Baling, for about four minutes before it
disappeared."
      "Mohamad Amirul Syafiq said at first he thought it
was a plane about to crash."
      "'I then called my friends to look at the object,
which was hovering just over the tops of the coconut trees
behind my house,' he was quoted as saying."
      "Mohamad Faiz Alias, 12, said he thought Mohamad
Amirul was joking.  'But we clearly saw the object in the
air, emitting a bright light,' Mohamad Faiz said."
      "Kamaruddin Othman, 12, said he realised the object
was not a plane because it was too silent."
      "His father, Othman Ahmad, 54, said he also caught
sight of the UFO before it disappeared."
      "Two years ago, a villager said he saw a UFO hovering
in the air while he was on his way to the mosque for pre-
dawn (Friday) prayers."
      Banggol Cicar is about 400 kilometers (250 miles)
north of Kuala Lumpur, the capital of Malaysia.  (See the
New Straits Times for December 16, 2003, "Malaysian
villagers claim UFO sighting."  Many thanks to Loren
Coleman for this newspaper article.)
(Editor's Comment:  Welcome to Spotlight on Southeast Asia
Week here at UFO Roundup.  There was an equally strange
phenomenon just across the Strait of Malacca in
Indonesia.)


PHANTOM EXPRESS HITS
THE RAILS IN INDONESIA

      "Superstitious Indonesians have blamed ghosts or
black magic for the mysterious journey of an empty
commuter train, which travelled 45 kilometers (23 miles)
from Bogor to Jakarta" on Indonesia's island of Java,
"before grinding to a halt."
      "The electric train, parked in a Bogor rail siding,
mysteriously came to life last week and began travelling
out of the Java hills into Jakarta's suburbs at about 64
kilometers per hour (40 miles per hour--J.T.)."
      "A railway employee climbed aboard one of the
carriages and tried to stop the train but was unable to
enter the driver's compartment."
      "The train eventually stopped on a hill in the city"
of Jakarta, Indonesia's capital, "without causing any loss
of life or injury."
      "Railway officials blamed its unscheduled journey on
'technical problems.'"
      "But a number of Jakarta communities told the
newspaper Detik that they believed ghosts piloted the
train on its journey."
      "One man said he was afraid to talk about the trip
and just thinking about it made his hair stand on end."
      "In a country where many people believe in ghosts or
black magic, an employee at Manggarai railway station said
he was trying not to dwell on what caused the mysterious
event."
      "'I don't want to say anything supernatural about the
case, because it's a matter for Allah,' he said."
      "A spokesman for the government train company, P.T.
Kereta Api Indonesia (KAI), admitted the train's journey
was a first and promised an investigation."
      "'This case could go into the Guiness Book of
Records,' he said."
      Bogor is located 45 kilometers (23 miles) south of
Jakarta.  (See the Indonesian newspaper Detik for December
16, 2003, "Ghosts blamed for runaway train."  Many thanks
to Angela Tarohachi for this newspaper article.)
(Editor's Note:  The USA's most famous "ghost engineer" is
Luther "Casey" Jones, who was killed in a major train
wreck in Vaughan, Mississippi in 1900.)


DAYLIGHT DISC SPOTTED
OVER CARACAS

      On Friday, November 28, 2003, at 2 p.m., a large
silver flying disc was spotted by hundreds of people over
downtown Caracas, the capital of Venezuela.
      According to ufologist Hector Arturo Escalante, "the
city's plazas were full of people protesting President
Hugo Chavez Frias.  They were demonstrating in support of
a recall election when the strange object appeared."
      The object appeared to move from west to east over
Caracas.  It was first seen in the Plaza O'Leary on the
Avenida Sucre, then the Plaza Ibarra on the Avenida
Bolivar and finally in the Parque Carabobo in the city's
Candelaria district.
      "The object was photographed by a man on the ground,"
he added, "He took the picture with an Olympus Model 370
digital camera, with 1.3 megapixels."  (Muchas gracias a
Hector Arturo Escalante para esto caso.)


LUMINOUS UFO SIGHTED
NEAR VIENNA, AUSTRIA

     On Thursday, December 11, 2003, Christoph Ferlmoser
was at his home in Vienna, the capital of Austria, when he
noticed an unusual bright light on the northern horizon,
over the Wiernerwald forest.
      "It was far away from me, about 50 kilometers (30
miles) at first," Christoph reported, "I saw a big white
object in the sky, and I'm sure it wasn't a star because
it was only one o'clock in the afternoon.  I stared at it,
and it came closer to me.  Then I noticed that the object
was made of a shiny silver material.  It had a diamond
shape, and it was zigzagging through the sky."
      "After 30 seconds or so, the object disappeared.
Nobody believes me, but I know what I have seen.  The
object was silver, and it had a diamond shape."  (Email
Form Report)


PHANTOM PANTHER STRIKES
AGAIN IN SCOTLAND

      "A family from Kilmalcolm went out for a Sunday
stroll" December 7, 2003 "and stumbled upon what they
believe is the lair of the celebrated Beast of
Lochwinnoch."
      "The black leopard-like creature has been sighted at
various locations throughout Renfrewshire" in Scotland
"for the past four or five weeks.  The latest sighting
comes from 14-year-old cousins William Muir and Andrew
Gallacher, who were walking in the woods with William's
mother, Ann."
      "As they entered the woods, they were met by a series
of growls, followed by a blood-curdling howl.  The noise
seemed to follow them and, as they penetrated deeper into
the woods, they discovered an unusual number of animal
bones strewn around a particular area."
      "There were scratch-marks on the surrounding trees
and, when a local reporter returned to investigate, he
discovered the half-eaten carcass of a sheep."
      "The Muir family have also produced a photograph
which they believes shows the beast lurking among the
trees.  Unfortunately, it is impossible to determine
whether the black silhouette in the photograph is in fact
the big cat or merely a woodland shadow."  (See the
Johnstone Gazette for December 8, 2003, "Leopard's lair."
Many thanks to Robert Fischer, UFO Roundup's phantom
panther expert, for this newspaper article.)


COUGAR CONTINUES TO
HAUNT A CITY IN KANSAS

      Lawrence, Kansas (population 80,098) continues to be
haunted by an elusive mountain lion or cougar (puma in UK-
-J.T.), which roams at will the neighborhoods around the
University of Kansas.
      According to Gary Cofer, UFO Roundup's Kansas
correspondent, "Anthony Capra, a 12-year-old deer hunter,
reported Saturday morning," December 6, 2003, "that he
spotted a mountain lion while hunting deer about a mile
from his home.  He says that he saw the lion running over
a ridge.  It was light brown and had a long tail that
touched the ground."
      Capra "made a Baaaa sound and was surprised when the
lion moved in his direction.  This scared the boy, so he
took aim" with his rifle "but had not chambered a round.
When he cocked the gun, the sound scared the lion.  He
shot twice at the running animal but didn't think he hit
it."
      Also last week, "a laboratory confirmed that
droppings found in the Lawrence area belong to a mountain
lion."
      Scientist "Mark Jaubauskas previously had placed a
remote-controlled camera on the west campus" of the
University of Kansas in Lawrence "and captured an image of
what appeared to be a mountain lion."
      Jaubauskas "sent samples of feces to a lab at Central
Michigan University for DNA tests.  The findings showed
that it was a cougar."
      Cells from the animal's rectum "are sloughed off"
during defecation and become "included in the scat.  The
lab was able to compare the DNA in the feces sample to its
own library of DNA," and a positive match was made.  (See
the Lawrence, Kansas Journal-World for December 9 and
December 10, 2003.  Many thanks to Gary Cofer for this
news summary.)


PHANTOM PANTHER TURNS
UP IN TENNESSEE

      "Connie Scheitlin is still stunned by what she swears
she saw walking through her backyard last week."
      "'I know it was a black panther,' Scheitlin said, 'It
was just lurking.'"
      "Scheitlin's panther sighting is just one of many
exotic wild animal reports that Williamson County experts
have received over the years.  Some reports turn out to be
true, but most are dismissed as figments of the
imagination or unlikely possibilities."
      "Debby Leddy, assistant director of Williamson County
Animal Control, said a woman once reported seeing Bigfoot
walking near Highway 100 in Fairview, Tennessee
(population 5,800)."
      "'That woman swears she saw a large, hairy creature
that left big prints,' Leddy said."
      "There have also been several cougar sightings and
even reports that an Asian lynx was prowling around the
Williamson County Soccer Complex in Franklin, Tenn.
(population 41,842)."
      "The panther sighting occurred last Thursday
afternoon," December 11, 2003, "at Scheitlin's home in the
Carronbridge subdivision in Cool Springs," near Franklin.
"Scheitlin was looking out the window while talking on the
phone when she says she saw a giant black cat no more than
100 yards (90 meters) away.  Not believing her eyes, she
quickly grabbed the camcorder and used the zoom feature to
take a closer look."
      "'It had a beautiful black shiny coat,' Scheitlin
said, 'It was very big and very muscular.  I had a really
good look at him, and I know what I saw.'"
      "Unfortunately, her camcorder was out of tape.  And
by the time Scheitlin returned with a still camera, the
animal had disappeared into the woods."
      "Sure of what she saw, Scheitlin keeps a close watch
on the tree line while her seven-year-old twins play in
the driveway.  'I've been very paranoid,' she said, 'This
thing could eat my kids.  When they play in the yard, I'm
there keeping an eye on the woods.  It's been very
unsettling.'"
      "Scheitlin called Terry Jackson, owner of AAA Animal
Removal, who came and searched the area for tracks but
didn't find any sign that the beast had been there.
Jackson said he believes Scheitlin saw what she said she
saw."
      "'There have been several reports of some sort of
animal that resembles a black panther over the years,'
Jackson said, 'TWRA (Tennessee Wildlife Resource Agency--
J.T.) doesn't believe it.  Their answer is, it's a big Lab
(Labrador retreiver dog--J.T.)."
      "Jackson's brother, Jim Jackson, said he saw what
looked like a black panther and two cubs walking at the
edge of the woods on Snowbird Hollow Road, near the Goose
Creek bypass."  (See The Tennesseean for December 18,
2003, "Too big to be a dog, too small to be Bigfoot."
Many thanks to Robert Goerman for this newspaper article.)


NEW SPACE TELESCOPE
SEES IN THE INFRARED

      "Dark smudges in the night sky and faintly glowing
interstellar clouds that confounded astronomers for years
were revealed Thursday," December 11, 2003, "to be a vast
field of birthing stars, as new planets lurking in a young
star's haze of dust, or as brilliant superheated gases
hiding in an inky, faraway nebula."
      "The discoveries were made using the newly launched
Lyman Spitzer Space Telescope, a $670 million orbiting
observatory that uses faint heat signatures to reveal
startling images of origins of planets, stars and galaxies
that are invisible even to the far-seeing Hubble Space
Telescope."
      "Telescopes looking at visible light find their view
blocked by opaque walls of dust and cold gas.  Under
Spitzer's gaze, those clouds all but disappear to reveal
sources of heat within them."
      "'This telescope has now lifted a cosmic veil.  We
can now see what we never could see before,' said Giovanni
Fazio, the principal investigator on the Spitzer program
and a senior physicist at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center
for Astrophysics in Cambridge, Mass."
      "The telescope completes" NASA's Great Observatories
program, orbiting "four telescopes specializing in
observations that use different ranges of the
electromagnetic spectrum."
      "The others are Hubble, which looks at visible light;
the Compton Observatory, which looked at subatomic
radiation; and the Chandra Observatory, which studies X-
rays.  The Spitzer telescope looks strictly in the range
of infrared radiation and can spot objects with
temperatures that dip below freezing."
      "At that temperature, chilly clouds of dust are
invisible and stars that haven't even ignited yet glow
like light bulbs, said Michael Werner, Spitzer project
scientist and an astrophysicist at the Jet Propulsion
Laboratory in Pasadena, California."
      "Almost all objects in the universe emit some
infrared, or heat, radiation."
      "To be able to see it, Spitzer must be kept mind-
bogglingly cold--at minus 450 degrees Fahrenheit--just 10
degrees above absolute zero."
      "Trailing six million miles behind Earth as it orbits
the sun, Spitzer's telescope has been built into what
essentially is a giant, spacefaring Thermos bottle."
      "The Spitzer telescope was named for a Princeton
University astronomer, who proposed in 1946 that the
United States put a telescope in space, above the
obscuring effects of the atmosphere.  Dr. Lyman Spitzer
Jr. died in 1997."  (See the Chicago Tribune for December
12, 2003, "Infrared telescope offers new visions," section
1, page 7.)


OLDEST CARVED FIGURINES
DISCOVERED IN GERMANY

      "Three small figurines carved of ivory from mammoth
tusks have been found in a cave in southwestern Germany,
providing stronger evidence that human ancestors were
already adept at figurative art more than 30,000 years
ago."
      "One of the pieces is the oldest known representation
of a bird, which resembles a cormorant or a duck.  The
others appear to be the head of a horse and a figure half-
man, half-animal.  None is longer than an inch (2.5
centimeters)."
      "The discoverer, Nicholas Conard, an archaeologist at
the University of Tuebingen in Germany, said the
sculptures 'belong to one of the oldest traditions of
figurative art known worldwide,' and that they point to
the region of the upper Danube (Donau im Deutsch--J.T.)
River as 'an important center of cultural innovation'
during the Late Stone Age, also known as the Upper
Paleolithic" period.
      "The discovery, described in today's issue of the
journal Nature, was made at Hohe Fels Cave, in the Swabian
mountains southwest of Ulm."
      "In the report, Conard said, the find complements the
collection of more than 20 similar ivory figurines over
recent years, all found at Swabian sites.  Precise dates
for the objects are unknown, he said, but an analysis of
related deposits indicates that the artists lived from
30,000 to 33,000 years ago."
      "'They were people just like us,' says paleontologist
Nicholas Conard...As far back as 1931, paleontologists
have reported finding similar ancient ivory figurines of
fearsome animals such as bears, lions and mammoths.  It
seems likely that the horse and bird figures were
creatures that early Europeans simply admired, Conard
said."
      "It was a time when painting on cave walls had also
begun to flourish.  Colorful drawings of horses, lions and
mammoths, discovered in the early 1990s at the Grotte
Chauvet in France, have been dated to 32,400 years ago."
      "Although no human skeletal remains have been found
in the German caves with the figurines, Conard said they
seemed to have been produced by modern humans, not their
relatives, the Neanderthals, some of whom still lived in
Europe."
      "'Clearly, they had a full-blown artistic tradition,'
says paleontologist Sally McBrearty of the University of
Connecticut, who was not involved in the research."
      "The three figurines--of a bird, a horse head and a
lion-man, add to the scholarly knowledge of ivory
figurines more than 30,000 years old."
      "The lion-man figurine indicates a shamanistic
identification with animals, she suggests."
(Editor's Note: The lion-man motif is also found in the
ruined temple at Chavin de Huantar in the jungles of
eastern Peru.)
      "Commenting on the figurines from German caves, Dr.
Anthony Sinclair, an archaeologist at the University of
Liverpool in UK, said, 'Without question, they are the
oldest body of figurative art in the world--pieces that
show a coherent set of manufacturing techniques and themes
for representation.'"  (See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune
for December 18, 2003, "Carvings are earliest human
figurative art," page 12A; and USA Today for December 18,
2003, "Carved-ivory figures go back a few years--30,000 or
so," page 11D.)
(Editor's Comment: The Schwabischen Alps on Ulm's west
side were identified as "the green hills of Zalgara," and
the site of the lost prehistoric city of Kamula, in Robert
E. Howard's short stories about Kull of Atlantis.  See
King Kull, Lancer Books, New York, N.Y. 1967, "Black
Abyss," page 61.  How strange to find hand-carved
figurines from 30,000 B.C. in that neighborhood.  Could
REH's fantasies have some basis in fact?  At any rate, the
figurines offer us a tantalizing glimpse into the lost
world of the Tetra Yuga.)


 From the UFO Files...

1995: N-N-N-NICE DOGGIE!

      It was eight years ago--Friday, December 22, 1995--
and Lori W., a New York City social worker, was making the
rounds of her clients' apartments on the Lower East Side
of the city's Manhattan borough.
      "Now, a woman would have to be crazy to walk down
those streets alone," Lori reminisced, "Normally, I would
go with several friends of mine, two male social workers,
and this afforded me some protection.  But both of them
had come down with the flu that day."
      "I had to keep the appointment.  So, as I stepped out
onto the street, I said a little prayer to the Lord to
keep his angels around me.  Little did I realize what form
my Christmas angel would take."
      "The moment I stepped out onto the street.  I was met
by the largest white dog I had ever seen in my entire
life!  This dog looked like a giant wolf!  He had these
really beautiful, smoky blue eyes that I thought were
really strange for a dog.  But he was so nice to me."
      "I immediately sensed that he was here to guard me
and protect me.  I could almost sense him trying to
communicate with me.  I know it sounds strange, but I
could really feel him project a thought at me, like:
'Okay, I'm here to help you as you go on your rounds.
Come on, what are you waiting for?'"
      "So the dog and I began walking together."
      "As we walked, I could see gang members on street
corners and hear them shouting obscenities."
      And, as Lori neared her destination, four gang
members made their approach, two in front of her and two
behind.
      "Whoa!  Check it out!"
      "Yo, baby!  You lookin' to party?"
      "Yeah, come with us.  We'll show you a real good
time."
      The white wolf lowered its head and began to growl.
A fierce gleam turned its blue eyes slate gray as it
glared at the two gang members in front.
      One gangbanger raised his arm.  "Get outta here, ya
dumb mutt!"
      The wolf's ears flattened.  Still growling, he
lowered his tail.  Hind legs tightened like steel springs.
      Unfazed, the gang member threatened, "Get outta here!
Or I'll boot your ass across the street!"
      The wolf's growl deepened.  White fangs made their
gleaming appearance.
      The other gangbanger muttered, "Christ, Leo!  You're
pissing it off!"
      Fangs bared, the wolf inched forward.  Leo and his
companion backed away. Plainly rattled, the companion
stammered, "N-n-n-nice doggie!"
      The wolf lunged.  Both men scrambled across the
street.  Then the wolf whirled and attacked the two men
behind Lori.  Yelling in alarm, they fled down a narrow
alleyway behind Leo and the other one.  All four
frantically began scaling the wooden fence at the alley's
end, while the wolf barked savagely.
      Just as Leo got one leg over the top of the fence,
the wolf made an impossible leap.  His teeth sank into the
back pocket of Leo's jeans.  And, with a twist of his
furry head, he tore out the denim seat.  Uttering a bellow
of fear, Leo disappeared over the fence.
      "This 'wolf dog' looked like he could've eaten three
or four of them in one large bite and still be hungry for
more!" Lori recalled.
      "The dog walked me right up to the doorstep of my
appointment.  After I was finished, I came out to see him
waiting there to escort me back home!"
      "This really taught me that the Lord works in strange
ways," Lori added, "and you'll never know what kind of
form his angels will assume in order to protect you."
      This altercation south of Delancey Street was
actually witnessed by a handful of street people, who were
warming themselves around an oil-barrel bonfire.
      "That's a mean-assed dog," one commented, watching
the white wolf escort Lori down the street.
      "Yeah," another replied, rubbing his hands over the
fire.  "It musta come over from Brooklyn."
      Yet, the "White Wolf of Delancey Street" has been
seen again and again.  And for some strange reason, it's
always seen in the wintertime.  (See Christmas Angels,
American Media Mini-Mags, Boca Raton, Fla., 2001, pages 58
to 60.)


      Tonight is Christmas Eve, and, as most of us settle
down to celebrate with family and friends, let us not
forget those who cannot be there for the festivities.
These are the gallant men and women on active duty in the
military forces of the nations around the world.
      Let's take a moment to remember them on Christmas.
Some of them will be out in the boonies, eating their
Christmas dinner on the hood of a Humvee or in a Blackhawk
helicopter speeding over some windswept terrain.  Let's
take that moment to thank them for their many sacrifices
on our behalf.
      So, if you are a member of one of the armed services
on active duty this Christmas, on behalf of all the
readers and correspondents and the gang at UFO Roundup,
let me wish you a "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year."
      Have a happy holiday season!

      And we'll be back next week, when Earth's little
fleet of robot spacecraft enter orbit around Mars, with
yet more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news, all brought to
you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."  See you
next time.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2003 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 24

              Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Sanchez-Ocejo

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:52:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:25:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Sanchez-Ocejo


>From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:30:03 -0000
>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:37:28 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Shough
>
>>>From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:49:56 -0000
>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>>>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown@ig.com.br>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>>Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:09:27 -0300
>>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

You wrote:

>>I would like to see if those were actually Barauna's words, by
>>the way, it seems this interview was recorded (if it was the
>>Hynek interview).

>This is initially described as "a short account of a
>conversation" with several people, Leo Sprinkle, Virgilio
>Sanchez-Ocejo, Cynthia Hind, and Irene Granchi, apparently
>during a dinner party at which Barauna was present. Although it
>is also later described as an "informal interview" I'm not
>convinced that this is a transcript of a tape. In any case, the
>particular passage to which you refer does not appear in quotes
>and does not appear in the body of the "interview". Here it is:

>'Toward the close of this informal interview, three things came
>up which I feel are significant... I [unidentified] asked
>casually how it was that, with so many men on deck at the time,
>no one else snapped a picture. The reply was unexpected. Yes,
>there was a newspaper photographer on board but he became so
>excited that he wet his pants; no picture was taken!'

>Was this conversation conducted in Portuguese or English? If the
>former then who translated this reply? _If_ Barauna himself used
>these exact words how good was his colloquial English?

>>Maybe this "wet his pants" is just an
>>expression, as in English. We do have that expression in
>>Portuguese too, "molhou as calcas", which usually must not be
>>taken literally. It's an exaggeration in any case.

If anyone could like to have a cassette copy of the interview,
send me a Money Order for U.S. $10 to cover cost and mail.


Regards,

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
P.O.Box 960771
Miami,Fl.  33296
U.S.A.









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   Dec > Dec 24

              Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:57:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:26:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO? - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:04:34 +0000
>Subject: Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO?

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:07:57 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Fortean Times Is Largely Anti-UFO?

>>I agree completely with your characterization of Fortean Times,
>>which I read for about 2 years recently. I would characterize it
>>as primarily a humor magazine, more joke than serious inquiry.
>>Definitely slanted toward CSICOPian interpretation.

>In the immortal words of Mr Jerome Clark: "This tells us more
>about you than it does about Fortean Times".


Ha! Just as this speciously canted remark, replete with the
trademark obsessive smear of Jerry Clark, ironically does for
you! Cluelessly holding the brush end, you fatuously try to
paint with the handle! Your own paint gets all over you! LOL!


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 24

                      Re: Original NORAD Santa - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:23:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:43:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Original NORAD Santa - Kaeser


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 20:04:24 -0800
>Subject: Original NORAD Santa

>Source: News First

>http://www.koaa.com/news/view.asp?ID=1692

<snip>

While not exactly on topic, I'd like to thank Frank for posting
it. This is a season that often brings our facets in people that
one might not have expected, and it can lead to amazing
traditions. A number of years ago, I worked at WEPM/WKMZ in
Martinsburg, WV and on a Saturday before Christmas one year, I
got a call in the newsroom asking that a correction be broadcast
as quickly as possible. It seems that the local Veteran's
Hospital had a special phone line installed, for that morning,
that children could use to speak with Santa and tell him what
they want. This phone was manned by a number of volunteer
veterans at the Hospital and was something that they looked
forward to every year.

Unfortunately, as luck would have it, the newspaper got the
phone number wrong. We weren't called by the volunteers at the
Hospital, asking that it be corrected on the air, we were called
by a retired couple in a nearby community who had been
answerring the phone for the past two hours and pretending to be
Santa and his wife. This couple played those roles for the
entire day, but were concerned that some children weren't able
to get through and wanted to make sure the correct phone number
was broadcast so they could reach Santa at the Veteran's
Hospital. We broadcast the correct number, and I also wrote a
short story on the situation that was carried by the UPI and
picked up the next Monday by the newspaper that had included the
wrong number earlier.

In the end, a very nice couple, who could have simply advised
the children that they had the wrong number, helped to make the
Holiday a little brighter for the children, and in the end for
themselves as well.

I pray that all of those on this List have a safe and happy
Holiday season.


Steve








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   Dec > Dec 24

                    Re: BBC Timewatch Programme - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:05:46 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:48:22 -0500
Subject: Re: BBC Timewatch Programme - Miller


>From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 19:47:37 -0000
>Subject: Re: BBC Timewatch Programme

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:29:15 -0000
>>Subject: Re: BBC Timewatch Programme

>Pilgrims,

>Stuart wrote:

>>I have been fortunate enough to obtain a preview copy of the
>>programme and have now watched it.

>>No question I did enjoy it

>Why wouldn't you?

Because you were associated with it. The only saving grace was
that I was able to watch it a few days before the holidays.

>>I am not trying to be partisan or confrontational or indeed
>>"smart" when I say I was gently encouraged by the programme. I
>>couldn't detect any particular agenda on the part of the

>That's because there was no 'agenda'. It was meant to be a look
>at ufology in its totality, not the particular pink half of the
>drainpipe either sceptics or believers stick to. It was, if you
>like and in the context of the current updates bugaboo, a
>fortean look at ufology.

No it wasn't. Were you actually there when they made the
programme or do you just like jumping on every bandwagon as it
passes by?

>>Indeed it is Andy himself who pokes a little bit of fun at the
>>MOD when running through the list of natural explanations for
>>sightings that the MOD dreamed up after the Smythe/Johnston
>>Vampire sighting in 1953, sounding incredulous as he refers to a
>>"mock moon" or a "mock sun".

>Sadly it's not me - I've been trying to get Stuart to believe
>this off list, but he won't have it. Radical misperception in
>action here kids! Man mispreceives stimulus and still won't
>accept the truth when it's pointed to him. Oh, and it's not Dave
>either Stuart.

I am insisting I am right on this point purely because I can't
be bothered to go through the tape again. I could be wrong but
I'll be beggared if I give Roberts the satisfaction of admitting
it.

>>Yes, watch it. 9th. January, BBC 2 9:00pm.

>Yes, do. It'll give the List something of meaning to discuss for
>a change.

I've changed my mind. Don't bother now.


Stuart Miller








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   Dec > Dec 24

                 Re: Flying Saucer To Be Developed - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:42:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:56:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Flying Saucer To Be Developed - Ledger


>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@charter.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:18:47 -0800
>Subject: Re: Flying Saucer To Be Developed

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:41:51 -0800
>>Subject: Flying Saucer To Be Developed

>>Source: Short News

>>http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=35329&rubrik1=Science&rubrik2=Engineerin
g&rubrik3=Air%20and%20Space%20Travel&sort=1&sparte=4

>>12/22/2003 12:14 AM

>>Flying Saucer to be Developed

>>Russian engineers are working with the US Navy to develop what
>>looks like the first functional flying saucer. The craft will be
>>tested in 2007 in Patuxent River, Maryland. The saucer is called
>>the Ekip.

>>http://www.ekip-aviation-concern.com/

>>500 pounds is the weight for the prototype of this model. The
>>Russian engineers say they flew a 12 ton version of this model
>>in the early 1990s. Curt Weldon, a Republican congressman, saw
>>the Ekip and advocated that the US help out financially.

>>One stumbling block is that airflow can get distorted on oddly
>>shaped devices. The engineers say they created a vacuum for
>>this. Dr. John Fischer of NAVAIR, says "But if we can make it
>>work, it'll allow for new, radical concepts in aircraft design."


>A Multiple use Craft has been conceived of before:

>http://www.iann.net/voyage/

>Any general resemblance is I'm sure,-coincedental. (Kind of
>like the simularites of the Original Star Trek to "Voyage") -
>I'm a fan of Both. Merry Christmas!


Hi GT,

One wonders why they waste their time on these - other than the
possible advantage of building aircraft without spars like the
B2 bomber. It still has winglets and stabilizers. It harkens
back to the "flying flapjack".


Happy Holidays everyone.

Don Ledger









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 24

              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:19:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:55:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Velez


>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:23:33 -0400
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:12:26 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

<snip>

>>You wrote:

>>I have been on the receiving end of the kind of smear campaign
>>that is being waged against Jaime Maussan. I can not only
>>identify with his situation, I can empathize with it. I _know_
>>how it feels to be on the receiving end of such an attack.

>Dear John Velez,

Hola Dr. Sanchez, All,

You write:

>I don't know where the smear campaign or attack you mention is.

Note: This is the _last_ time I'm going to say this or respond
to anything else regarding Maussan, Franz et al.

Maussan, Kolbeck (the air traffic controller) and Capt, Ruano
(the pilot that reported the case to Maussan in the first place)
have been called "liars" and _intentional_ "hoaxers." Unless
there is some really hard evidence for it, accusing someone of
_intentionally_ lying or deceiving is pretty strong and damaging
stuff. Several people have very flippantly accused Maussan of
manufacturing and spreading lies and deceptions about UFO cases
that do not exist. That kind of thing without being accompanied
by hard evidence (just like a UFO case) is nothing more than a
smear on the character of 'whoever' is being portrayed that way.

All I have been saying all along is; we need to hear _both_
sides. Before we all slam the coffin lid shut on Maussan he
needs to be given a chance to at least defend himself.

All I keep getting in response is; "What 'smear' campaign, John"
and "i'm tired of all this talk of people being sued" etc. etc.
etc.

For the last time: The 'smear' is precisely the kind of comments
and statements that are being made wholesale in this thread...
and if people do not want to be 'sued' they should be able to
_prove_ their public accusations that some person is an
_intentional_ hoaxer and liar. Royce was able to prove that
Morton was full of 'it' in an open court of law and in the end,
he won the case. But... Morton was able to initiate litigation
against Royce because Royce was calling him a "liar and a
hoaxer" in public. (The UFO Watchdog website.)

So, I am not being off-the-wall or misstating anything. Maussan
_is_ being 'smeared' (he is repeatedly being called an
intentional liar/hoaxer) and if Franz and others who insist on
doing so _in_public_ aren't careful, Maussan can if he wishes,
sue the pants off of them. Period.

That's all I will say on this thread. If anybody has a problem
with the position I have taken there are plenty of good and
competent counsellors around to help them deal with it.

I'm out of it until _all_ the evidence is in and _both_ sides
have been heard from. Also: As much as I like and respect Royce
Myers III, I don't ever take everything he says as Gospel. Being
'human' he can be wrong about somebody sometimes. All I want to
do is hear both sides and be able to make up my own mind without
getting all this pressure from others about it. Is that okay
with everyone?

I've said all I have to say about this matter at least three
times now. If anyone has any more questions for me, they can
simply refer to the UpDates archive to read my thoughts and
feelings about this situation. Geez, all I am guilty of is
thinking that a commercial pilot and an air traffic controller
are _credible_ witnesses. I don't think that is such a 'way-out'





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 24

             Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Mausson

From: Jaime Maussan <jaimemaussanmx@yahoo.com.mx>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 12:44:42 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:08:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Mausson


>From: Cap. Alejandro Franz <alfafox@prodigy.net.mx>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 05:45:18 -0700
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:21:46 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>From: Captain Alejandro Franz <alfafox@Prodigy.net.mx>
>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:41:33 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>I can provide some information about this case, another one of
>>>many J. Maussan hoaxes. The Aeromexico DC9 flight 129 from
>>>Guadalajara to Mexico's City Intl. Airport that supposedly had a
>>>collision with a UFO when approaching runway 05 right at
>>>Mexico's Intl. Airport on july 1994.

>>>I know personally the "eyewitness" Enrique Kolbeck, an Air
>>>Traffic Controller, very close to Jaime Maussan because he is
>>>the one who always has been invited to join the "team" of
>>>"eyewitnesses" at all UFO conventions that Maussan has organized
>>>since 1997.

<snip>

Dear Friends:

This 'case' wouldn't even be happening in the United States.....

Let me explain myself.....

Recently Captain Alejandro Franz Navarrete, has accused Captain
Raymundo Cervantes Ruano, Controler Enrique Kolbeck and myself
of being hoaxers and liars. Why? Because we affirm a collision
event happened -related to Flight 129, from Aeromexico, flying
from Guadalajara to Mexico- and that the aircraft probably
impacted an unknown aerial object the night of July 28, 1994.

Franz Navarrete presents a series of questions and concludes
that the event never happened. Furthermore he contends that
because it 'never happened' the whole case should be considered
a hoax.

When I said that this case wouldn't happen in the US it is
because Captain Raymundo Cervantes Ruano is an active Pilot. He
is an Instructor of Pilots. He is also a member of the Board of
Directors of the Union of Pilots here in Mexico. Capt. Ruano he
was elected to this position by popular vote. BTW, recently he
was an -Instructor- of Alejandro Franz Navarrete who is the
report's principle critic.

Another individual reporting in this case is Enrique Kolbeck.
Mr. Kolbeck is an air traffic controller with more than 25 years
of experience in the field, most of that time working in the
Control Tower at Mexico City's international airport. He is also
a member of the Board of Directors of the Union of controllers,
also elected by popular vote.

Myself, Jaime Maussan, I have been working as an Investigative
Reporter for 33 years on Mexican television. I have produced and
presented around five-hundred, one hour documentaries. Three
times I have received the National Award for Journalism. I was
also Anchorman and Director of '60 Minutes' for Mexican TV. I
have worked as a journalist on Mexican television for 17 years.

I have also received a special Award on Capitol Hill (Room Mike
Mansfield ) on March 12th 1982. That same day Ted Turner was
also honored with a special award.  I was also recognized at the
United Nations where I received an award: 'Global 500' for
special merits in the defense of the Environment. I received the
award from the hands of Mostafa Tolba, director of PNUMA on June
5 1990. I could go on, but this is enough.

In the US you would not question people with that background.
But now you are ready to believe someone you don't know, just
because he questions but does not -demonstrate- what he affirms.

Lets go to the facts.

On the night of July 28 1994, we received many phone calls
reporting a sighting in the area of the World Trade Center.
Because I know Enrique Kolbeck since childhood, I asked the Sky
Watchers, (a local group) to report the UFO/OVNI to Centro
Mexico (Control Room). I was at home around 10 pm when Enrique
Kolbeck called me. He was very nervous as he told me "...I
almost sh*t in my pants... Flight 129 hit something around the
World Trade Center, we had an emergency landing and the captain
wants to speak to you".

Captain Cervantes Ruano, (who I didn't know,) also called me.
He, like Enrique Kolbeck was also very nervous. He asked me if
it was true that we had reports of a sighting. He said that he
wanted to meet me as soon as possible. The Next day he told me
the whole story...

"...when we were about to land I dropped the landing gear and I
felt a direct hit under the plane. I thought I had hit a
Helicopter or an small plane, then I asked for an emergency
landing...."

"....we had to circle the airport twice. I wanted someone to get
a look at the landing gear so I could know if this was
intact.... they gave me the go ahead, and we landed safely. The
airplane was taken to the Hangar where the mechanics checked it
out and told me that the Hydraulic line was cut... they couldn't
explain what happened to the airplane".

Along-side the Co Pilot Enrique Gomez, Captain Alejandro Soturo
a flight instructor was also in the cockpit. He congratulated
Capt. Cervantes Ruano for the action. The plane was a DC 32,
classification: XA-JEB.

In the Control room, directly controlling the plane was Giovanni
Javier Murga Qero. He was helped by controller Alejandro del
Valle _after_ the event occurred.

A week later on August 8,1994 at 11:30 in the morning, Flight
304 flying in from Acapulco to Mexico city had a very close
encounter with a big shiny silver disc. The pilots Francisco
Mezquita and Carlos Corso thought _they_ were going to have a
collision.

They were both very nervous and mad. They also contacted me to
find out what has happening around the airport. Other cases were
reported. Over the weeks that ensued on at least four occasions
different airplanes aborted their landings because they saw
unidentified objects around/near the airport.

Investigator Carlos Alberto Guzman Rojas and Alfonso Salazar in
the book: Los Ovnis y la Aviacion Mexicana write... Pp172 and
173.....

(please John translate, I want to write exactly what is written
in the book)

[***Note to UpDates List readers: I have volunteered my services
as a translator to Jaime and Enrique Kolbeck should they require
it. Any errors in translation are mine alone and I assume full
responsibility. I will leave a copy of the original Spanish
intact for List members who are able to read it. --John Velez]

In Spanish:

"....En platica que sostuvo Alfonso Salazar con el inspector
Francisco Rodriguez (Martinez) Meza le informo que esa noche
estaba en el hangar de ciha compa=F1ia y que se enetero del caso.

Trans: In a conversation between Alfonso Salazar and inspector
Francisco Rodriguez (Martinez) Meza informed him that he had
been in the hanger (of the company in question) that night and
that that was when he became interested in the case.

Los pasajeros bajaron en la terminal aerea  y posteriormente el
avion fue conducido al hangar. El inspector Rodriguez (Martinez)
afirmo que en la pierna derecha del avion  se observo en una
l=EDnea hidraulica  un corte, como si se hubiera cortado "con una
navaja".

The passengers deplaned into the terminal area and immediately
afterwards the airplane was taken to the hanger. Inspector
Rodriguez (Martinez) confirmed that he observed that the
hydraulic line on the right-side landing gear had been cut as if
it had been done with a razor.

"....cabe mencionar que en el aeropuerto  se implemento un
dispositivo de emergencia  durante el aterrizaje  de dicho avion
donde por la capacidad, profesionalismo  y experiencia del
piloto y su tripulacion pudieron aterrizar  sin consecuencias".

It is important to mention that an emergency landing procedure
had to be implemented during the landing of said airplane and
that if not for the competence, professionalism and experience
of the pilot (Capt. Ruano) and crew they would not have landed
the plane without consequences.

"....el corte que presentaba la l=EDnea del hidraulico con la
consiguiente perdida de fluido pusieron en peligro la operacion
de aterrizaje y en opinion del Inspector Rodriguez (Mart=EDnez),
no se pudo explicar lo que ocurrio aquella noche sobre la zona
del antiguo hotel de la Ciudad de Mexico (World Trade Center).

The cut in the hydraulic line with the pursuant loss of fluid
made the landing procedure dangerous in the opinion of inspector
Rodriguez (Martinez) he could no explain what happened that
night in the skies over the 'Zona del Antiguo Hotel' in Mexico
City (World Trade Center)

In the same book Pp 174, the authors confirm also the events of
flight 304.

Franz  Navarrete accused Enrique Kolbeck through ACTAM (an air
traffic controllers association) of giving false testimony about
this case. He posed at that time the same questions that he has
presented to UFO Updates. The Air Traffic Controller Angel
Iturbe Estrop, former air traffic controller at Culiacan Airport
responds to Franz Navarrete with the following:

(Again John I ask you to translate this I want to be factual).

Angel Iturbe writes:

".... La razon de dirigirte esta carta es manifestar una
energica protesta por lo que me parece de tu parte una actitud
deleznable, e incongruente con el espiritu de solidaridad que
deberiamos promover todos los actores del medio aeronautico. Me
refiero a la agresion que hiciste a un colega controlador,
compa=F1ero trabajador, pero sobre todo, admirado y entra=F1able
amigo: Enrique Kolbeck.

  The reason for this letter is to lodge an energetic protest
about what seems to me to be a display of a negligent, and
incongruent attitude toward the solidarity that we should have
with all members of the aeronautics community. I refer to the
aggression with which you treated a colleague controller and
work companion (who is overall a much admired and beloved
friend.)

Then he refutes question by question the arguments of Alejandro
Franz Navarrete, spaeking as an air traffic controller. It's
very clear that this man (Angel Iturbe) knows what he is talking
about.

I can submit a copy of the letter in every single detail if you
like... it is a very 'technical' response to the questions
raised by Franz.

Angel Iturbe concludes:

"...Por ultimo quisiera referirme a las aseveraciones que haces
respecto al radar. Para que lo entendamos los no inciados:  tus
comentarios son contradictorios:

... and finally I'd like to address your observations in respect
to the radar. So that those who are not 'initiates' can
understand: your comments are contradictory:

Afirmas que los avistamientos en los Radares son un hecho y que
tu fuiste testigo de algo... me pregunto como es que tu mismo
admites los avistamientos por radar.... como saber si se trata
de un verdadero avistamiento o de un eco falso o de lo que
llamamos basura o estatica.

You affirm that the sightings on Radar are a fact and that you
witnessed something... I ask myself how is it that you yourself
admit to the (validity of) the sightings by radar without you
knowing if it was a true signal/sighting, a false echo or  what
we call trash/static.

Tambien me pregunto porque a quienes estuvieron contigo los
llamas testigos y a Enrique lo acusas de hacer un falso
testimonio recapacito un poco sobre mis cuestionamientos  y me
asalta una terrible duda:  =BFsera que tu sabes algo que te
convierte en alguien que SI esta capacitado para saber la verdad
absoluta  y juzgar al resto de los terricolas".

Also I ask myself because those who took your side you refer to
as "witnesses" while you only accuse Enrique of giving false
testimony. As I consider my questionings about all this a
terrible doubt assaults me: do you think you know something that
makes you capable of discerning the absolute truth about
*everything? (*Not quite sure what the word 'terricolas' means.
JV)

In a second letter that air traffic controller Angel Iturbe
Strops directed to Victor Cervantes Mu=F1oz, Director of ACTAM -
the association of air traffic controllers (a union that Franz
Navarrete -used to- belong to) said about Enrique
Kolbeck......"un buen hombre y buen controlador que se deja
influenciar candidamente...para convencerlo de que no lo haga".

"A good man and a good air traffic controller who will not be
influenced (candidly? JV) not to report.

In his letter to Victor Cervantes.... Angel Iturbe concludes...


1. Informes publicamente si el ex controlador Alejandro Franz
Navarrete es miembro activo, honorario, en receso o que, porque
segun los estatutos no existe la calidad de Miembro o Socio
Fundador.

1. Inform me publicly if _former_ controller Alejandro Franz
Navarrete is an honorary member, in recess or what. Because
according to the records/statutes he is not a member or an
associate Founder.

2. Te retractes del contenido de tu respuesta al citado ex
controlador Alejandro Franz Navarrete, en todo lo referente a
Enrique Kolbeck.

You retract the content of your response about cited former
controller Alejandro Franz Navarrete, in referring to Enrique
Kolbeck.

[***I had a little trouble with this one. I gave it my best shot
but it doesn't quite make sense so I'm certain that I've missed
the meaning here a bit. If any Spanish speaking List members can
offer a more accurate or lucid translation, your inout would be
greatly appreciated. I'm trying to translate all of this as
accurately as I can. --JV]

3. Ofrezcas publicamente una disculpa al controlador Enrique
Kolbeck por insmiscuirte en asuntos de su vida personal y

A public apology to air traffic controller Enrique Kolbeck should
be offered for (mentioning?) details of his personal life.

4. Rectifiques tu actitud como Presidente de la asociacion toda
vez que actos como el que hoy nos ocupan denigran la profesion
de Controlador de Transito Aereo.

*Rectify your attitude as President of the association when
dealing with acts such as the one that occupies us today,
such things only serve to defame the whole Air Traffic Controller
profession.

[*This in regard to Enrique Kolbeck being called a liar.--JV]

Finalmente, te informo que ya que tu no has asumido el papel de
defender con dignidad a un controlador ante una agresion externa
yo me arrogo el derecho el derecho de hacerlo y contestare al
citado ex controlador. Recibiras copia. No es que Enrique lo
necesite, solo  que nopuedo permanecer expectante, mientras tu
agredes impunemente a un colega controlador.

Finally I am informing you that since your you have not assumed
the role and defended with dignity an air traffic controller
from an external aggression, I assume the right the right to do
it and I will respond to the cited former controller. (Franz)
You will receive a copy.  It is not that Enrique needs it, but I
do remain expectant that you will not attack a colleague
controller.

Va de nuevo la invitacion a que renuncies a la presidencia de la
ACTAM en un  acto de congruencia entre lo que haces y lo que
dices.

Again the invitation is offered for you to renounce the
presidency of the ACTAM because of the inconsistencies between
what you do and what you say.

Angel Iturbe Strop
Controlador de Transito Aereo.



I must say that Victor Cervantes is not longer Director of
ACTAM.

I hope you can appreciate how difficult it has been to get
people to speak openly about what is happening. When people like
Captain Alejandro Franz Navarrete attack those who finally are
letting us know what is going on in the air, it only serves to
make getting testimony even more difficult. I don't want to send
the wrong message to all those people who have allowed us inside
the air industry.

There is a better way to clarify things... If someone, an
investigator from the US comes to Mexico to investigate. To talk
to the Pilots, air traffic controllers, technicians and all the
people who have been involved in -many- events.

Also to investigate other cases. I am sorry, but I am very tired
of being attacked by "investigadores de escritorio". (Armchair
investigators) I am and have been an investigator for many
years. When I express an opinion it is because I have
investigated the facts. It's so easy to talk ...it's so easy to
attack.

Many of the questions posed by Franz Navarrete couldn't being
answered because the Air Company, Aeromexico, will not allow
the information to come out...to be made public. Do you know any
company in the world that would let a journalist conduct an
investigation around a security issue?  None. And Franz Navarrete
as he poses his questions knows and depends on that.

He has also said that I mentioned that people from NASA or the
FAA came to investigate this event....? Please, first off, the Mexican
governemt wouldn't allow that. How can he say such a lie and get
away with it. Probably because you don=B4t know much about this man.
Come to Mexico, investigate _him_. Asks the pilots what they think
of him... ask the air traffic controllers what is their opinion about
this man.

In his Curriculum Vitae he claims to be Pilot, Controller,
Meteorologist, UFO investigator, Contactee, Astro-archeologist,
parapsychologist, hypnotist, Webmaster and Director of SEIP
Sociedad Espa=F1ola de Investigaciones Parapsicologicas,
Asociacion Civil.

I am a simple journalist, respected by the people of Mexico and
Latin America.






                         The UFO UpDates Archive
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 24

               Re: British Ufology On Self-Destruction - Parr

From: Chris Parr <cparr@talk21.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 19:06:37 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:12:48 -0500
Subject: Re: British Ufology On Self-Destruction - Parr


I would like to respond to these points in question

Experimental Hoaxing

If a Ufo Investigator attempts to combine anecdotal evidence
with limited evidence, a `Ufo Incident` may occur due to the
belief system of the participating investigator.

If another Ufo researcher considers the UFO Incident to be a
fabrication and harmful to the credibility of Ufological
Studies, it may be appropriate to create a constructive hoax to
means test means test the validity of the evidence associated
with the event

----------------------------------------------------------------

Sheffield UFO incident

I have attended Ufo Conferences throughout the UK and have seen
the presentation of Dr Clarke on the Sheffield Incident. I have
not attended a conference in which Maxwell Burns has presented
his version of events surrounding the Sheffield Incident and it
is unfair to label Mr Burns as an "X-Files fantasist".

However I have studied the previous evidence forwarded by Max
Burns and found it to be reliant on anecdotal evidence. I also
found that the mandatory actions of the Rescue Services and RAF
responses were being misinterpreted and a Ufo Incident developed
in due course.

----------------------------------------------------------------

X-Files Plots manifesting into Ufo Incidents

The following is extract from Cumbrian Newspapers 1999 also
published on a smaller scale by News of the World Magazine on
the evidence of Cluster Ufologist Sharon Larkin


Sharon's hot on the trail of the UFOs

Sharon has attracted attention of a more sinister kind after she
started to research into what she describes as "an area of
forbidden territory". It's the first time in the three years
that she has been investigating UFO activity seriously that she
has been threatened and made to feel that she could be in
serious danger.

It all centres around her current investigations into numerous
reports of unidentified objects in the sky above the former
Royal Naval Armaments Depot at Broughton Moor.

Two weeks ago, Sharon and her team of fellow skywatchers decided
to visit the area to see if they could witness any of the
objects themselves. They saw a large black triangular shape
craft which they tried to photograph and video.

Sharon said it soon became clear that they weren't wanted
anywhere in the area. "We parked close to the Depot gates, where
the MOD No Parking Signs are and these Plain White Jeeps drove
past at high speed. Then they stopped and some men got out with
torches,"


The skywatch team decided it was time to head off and jump in
their cars. But Sharon claims, the jeeps gave chase, tailgating
one of their cars as if they wanted them to pull over. The chase
continued all the way to Camerton.

As if that wasn't terrifying enough, when Sharon got eventually
got home at about 11pm that night, she received a sinister phone
call from a mystery man. "He sounded a bit cagey and he wouldn't
identify himself. He said that he had seen what we had seen knew
we had photographs and video footage. He warned under no
circumstances I should contact the press with them. Ten the
phone cut off."


X-FILES series 1 Episode 2 Deepthroat

Top Secret Military base where a Black Flying Triangle is
observed by Ufo enthusiasts

THE X-FILES Book of the Unexplained Volume 1 Page 272

Today, more people than ever flock to Groom Lake, hoping to
check out Area 51 and catch a glimpse of something. The nearest
town, Rachel, has a fixed population of one hundred and one
hostelry, the Little A`LE INN (alien geddit?) which is not
dissimilar to The Flying Saucer Diner of Deepthroat, and plays
host to thousands of visitors every year.

With Freedom Ridge closed, however, getting a glimpse of
anything is difficult. The best vantage point now is at Tikaboo
Creek - providing you have your own telescope and don't mind a
one and a half hour hike up a remote hillside.

Crossing the military borders can cost a hapless rubber necker a
$600 fine and a rather scary encounter with the `Cammo Dudes`-
 armed private security patrolmen with walkie-talkies who drive
`White Cherokee Jeeps with Government plates and wear camouflage
fatigues without insignia.

"What are they?" -- Scully
"I don't know. just keep watching. It's unbelievable" -- Mulder

----------------------------------------------------------------






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 24

                 Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 49 - Olmos

From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos@yahoo.es>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 20:34:13 +0100 (CET)
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:10:58 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 49 - Olmos


>From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:02:01 +0000
>Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 49

>UFO ROUNDUP
>Volume 8, Number 49
>December 24, 2003
>Editor: Joseph Trainor


>DAYLIGHT DISC SPOTTED OVER CARACAS

>On Friday, November 28, 2003, at 2 p.m., a large
>silver flying disc was spotted by hundreds of people over
>downtown Caracas, the capital of Venezuela.

>According to ufologist Hector Arturo Escalante, "the
>city's plazas were full of people protesting President
>Hugo Chavez Frias. They were demonstrating in support of
>a recall election when the strange object appeared."

>The object appeared to move from west to east over
>Caracas. It was first seen in the Plaza O'Leary on the
>Avenida Sucre, then the Plaza Ibarra on the Avenida
>Bolivar and finally in the Parque Carabobo in the city's
>Candelaria district.

>"The object was photographed by a man on the ground,"
>he added, "He took the picture with an Olympus Model 370
>digital camera, with 1.3 megapixels." (Muchas gracias a
>Hector Arturo Escalante para esto caso.)


There is a mistake here.....

The photographer sent to me the photo and he was specific that
the thing he photographed was not seen by him at all, it just
appeared when the images were viewed later - a digital camera
was used.

The photographer took many photos at random waiting for some UFO
to appear, based on the assumption he held that UFOs appear when
multitudes are gathered, and a political demonstration was under
way.

The UFO image, having been unseen by the eye, therefore, can be
anything.

Strangeness is very low.


V-J






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 24

                   !!!!!FLASH!!!! UFO SIGHTING IN PROGRESS

From: Mike Woods <mike.woods@rogers.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:56:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:19:01 -0500
Subject: !!!!!FLASH!!!!  UFO SIGHTING IN PROGRESS


Dear List,

The link below provides on-going tracking of an unidentified
object making an unusual orbit of the earth. It was first
tracked approximately 6 hours ago (6am est) on the opposite side
of the planet.  The object appears to exceed the current limits
of known propulsion systems, moving beyond light speed
alternating with micro-second cessation of movement at
individual domiciles. Current estmates project the orbit of the
earth will terminate with sunrise December 25th (local time.)

Eyewitness reports describe a rectangular craft with extended
landing gear and an apparent blend of machine and biological
propulsion units. Multiple reports say the propulsion system is
a cluster of eight units.

Any further sighting information should be forward to local
investigators.

NORAD says the object is not displaying any indications of
hostile intent.

Wishing you all a very, Merry Christmas,



Michael J. Woods


Link:  www.noradsanta.org








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   Dec > Dec 24

                               The List Rests

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:28:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:28:02 -0500
Subject: The List Rests

Subscribers and Readers

Thanks to the many who have contributed over the year and
make UFO UpDates necessary reading for many more

To all of you a Joyous Christmas and a Prosperous and
Revealing New Year

Unless Santa brings an escort of an unidentified or two the
List will rest until Saturday


Peace on Earth

Errol Bruce-Knapp
UFO UpDates - Toronto







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 25

               Re: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? -

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 15:39:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 07:59:29 -0500
Subject: Re: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? -


From: James J. Lippard <lippard-skeptic@discord.org>
  To: skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:31:03 -0700
Subj: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 06:29:05 -0600
>Subject: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>Yeah... but see, I submit that you're missing something from the
>big picture that's likely key to absolving some of our
>ignorance... forgetting that it won't really matter who makes

Absolving? I don't think ignorance is a sin.

>the most money doing *whatever*... remember the story Jerry
>Clark told us about "Fate" being supported by the largess of a
>Recreational Vehicle publishing effort? 'Fate' was operated at
a >loss same as the CSICOPian effort may or may not prove to
be... >What really matters is the motivation behind the desire
to >operate at a loss. In the case of "Fate," the motivation is
>obvious... the wish to peak behind the *curtain*, think out of
>the *box*, expand the *consciousness*... is worth the time and
>effort. It's fun if nothing else.... What motivates a CSICOPian
>to operate at a loss, love of what?

I disagree that the motivation is the important thing, but let's
address the issue.

I think the primary motivation of CSICOP, or at least CSICOP
supporters, is to promote critical thinking and skepticism, and
to prevent people from being taken in by fraud and falling into
error (specifically Type I error--believing falsehoods on the
basis of weak evidence). These should be laudable goals in
anyone's book.

The opponents of CSICOP are largely more concerned with Type II
error--failure to believe truths where the evidence supports it.
This is also a type of error that anybody should want to avoid.

>Some would argue that they see a loss of human rationality and
a >quick slide to a new 'dark ages' upon a serious investigation
>into the paranormal, when any really rational person only
>perceives that investigation as forewarning for a future that
>approaches regardless. What's CSICOP got to hide? If _their_

You tell me. What is it that you think CSICOP is hiding (as
opposed to not promoting, or attempting to dissuade people from
believing on the basis of weak evidence)?

>science bears out the work of the paranormalist scientist (of
>conjecture) shouldn't that be a *good* thing?

Sure--and I think any supporter of CSICOP would agree.

>>My comparison of Amazon.com book sales was a start at such a
>>comparison, as I listed only parapsychology books and skeptical
>>books that (mostly) focused on parapsychology.

>This discussion is focused, but it's not on the point really --
>and the point is... Is CSICOP a fraud? That's the issue. It may

I disagree, that's not the issue, and I think you should be more
accurate with terms like "fraud."

>be -true- that they paid their idiosyncratic taxes, but what did
>they manufacture? Only dismissal! Never confirmation (even when
>the evidense of confirmation is there?)! Their research provides
>fodder for derision of something that every one of them admits
>is there (somewhere in space and time or in some capacity).
>"UFOs are real... (somewhere)," these think..."just please,
>please, please... not here"!

It doesn't sound like you're a subscriber to Skeptical Inquirer.

I think we differ not only on what we think is true, but on how
we get there. It looks to me like you are making the common
mistake of demonizing those who disagree with you, rather than
trying to understand why they disagree with you.

[...]

>What you may be doing here is comparing unlike scales. Which
>gets late-night (and so discounted) attention and which graces
>mainstream prime time, Gerald Posner or Jim Marrs? And Posner
>is "[Dirty]", sir (Parenti's "History as Mystery"). Marrs is,
>too quickly, dismissed as a sensationalist by the official
>mainstream, and seems to support himself, with regard to
>research, better than his detractors...

Posner is a better researcher than Marrs. Posner's work contains
mistakes, but people had to really struggle to come up with a
list of 100 errors in his book, and most of those errors are
extremely minor (and many of them aren't even errors). See:

http://www.discord.org/skeptical/Conspiracies/Assassination/

for references.

I don't know what you mean by "Posner is '[Dirty]'", but it
looks like an ad hominem argument.

In my opinion, it is quite reasonable for Posner to get prime-
 time coverage and Marrs to be on late-night talk radio (as well
as be a major source for Stone's "JFK").

If you did a random telephone survey of Americans, though, would
they be more familiar with Posner's work, or JFK assassination
conspiracy claims? Which has reached a larger audience? *That's*
my point.

[...]

>So, more and more people, unimpressed with the veracity of
>CSICOP and leery of its biased prosecutions and duplicitous
>anti-paranormal prosecutions (for reasons hard to determine,
>remember...) , more and more become interested in UFOs...

Most people have never heard of CSICOP, I'm afraid. I think your
language here betrays a bias on your part that is stronger than
that of CSICOP--you should remember that the Skeptical Inquirer
publishes articles from a large field of contributors, and the
specific issues that CSICOP has been rightly criticized for
involved only a very few. Further, the worst example--its
handling of the Mars Effect--resulted in admission of error in
1983 (Kurtz, Zelen, and Abell's "Reappraisal" article) and the
publication of two pro-Mars Effect papers from Suitbert Ertel in
1992 (vol. 16, no. 2, pp. 150-160) and 1998 (vol. 22, no. 4, pp.
59-60).

I don't think more and more people are becoming interested in UFOs
these days.

>Hey, burned and shy, I know the CSICOPian position on holistic
>medicine and nutritional supplementation and the fellow that
>cured himself of the incurable (so to speak) doing just what
>they'd say wouldn't work (Crohn's paper at our website
>AlienView.net). If they can have their heads up an locked, that
>hard, with regard to nutrition (another venue where they'd
>pronounce authoritatively), how wrong can they be about UFOs?
>Add Truzzi and Rawlins, and Steve Allen twirls in his burial
>urn.

I am not aware that CSICOP has a position on nutrition--they
certainly haven't "pronounced authoritatively" in anything I've
read (and I own every issue of the Skeptical Inquirer). If
you're wrong about that, how wrong can you be about UFOs?

I don't understand what your last sentence is supposed to
convey. Can you explain?

--
Jim Lippard
lippard-skeptic@discord.org
http://www.discord.org/
GPG Key ID: 0xF8D42CFE







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   Dec > Dec 25

                      Researcher Reports More Sightings

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:50:00 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 08:01:39 -0500
Subject: Researcher Reports More Sightings


December 24, 2003
http://www.airdrieecho.com/story.php?id=3D84849

Researcher reports more sightings
Airdrie residents continue to see strange sights in the sky

Paul Wells
Echo Editor

Airdrie Echo =97 Even the animals seem to be sensing something
strange.

Brian Vike, one of Canada=92s most experienced UFO sighting
investigators, said the most recent reports of unusual activity
in Airdrie and area have come from both humans and, vicariously,
via humans through their canine companions.

"There are many reports of animals responding funny to an
unusual object. Their senses are far superior ours," Vike said.

"So it is a possibility that the pets around this one certain
area were aware and frightened of something that was truly an
unknown to them."

The following are the most recent witness sighting reports
emanating from Airdrie to Vike=92s UBCC UFO Research facility.

=95 Airdrie: Dec. 13, 2003 (approximately 11:10 p.m.)

"I was reading (the) article about sightings in the Airdrie Echo
last week and found it very interesting. I was driving home from
work last Saturday night (Dec. 13) from Calgary, Alberta. It was
about 11:07 p.m. to 11:10 p.m. =96 not exactly sure of the time.
I=92m at the first Airdrie exit. I saw this bright tunnel of light
come down from somewhere in the sky. It lit up all of Airdrie
and then it went back up again. It took seconds. I was stunned
at first and still driving, looking around to see more. I was
looking for a vapour trail from a plane. No sight of any
evidence left behind or a plane. So logic set in, I thought
maybe a falling star ... no, it wouldn=92t go back up again. Maybe
a shooting star ... no. The person in front of me slowed right
down and so did I. I=92m kicking myself in the butt right now for
not getting him to pull over and talk about what we saw. Or did
I just see it? He wasn=92t too far ahead of me. I=92m sure that he
saw what I had. As I=92m taking the third exit to go home, I look
down Highway 2 to see if I see anything else is happening down
the highway. I would like to know of anyone else who had seen
this. If you know of anyone, please let me know. Could that
possibly be a UFO?"

=95 Airdrie: Sept. 14 (approximately 5:50 p.m.)

According to Vike, he received a call from a male Airdrie
resident.

"I had a call from a fellow who resides in Airdrie. From his
home he reports using a street lamp for a reference point and
using binoculars and his naked eye he was able to clearly
observe an object which sat stationary in the sky. The object
was reported as having five rows of lights around it. From his
location, he figured the object was approximately one-and-a-half
miles away and was larger than a basketball. The object sat
south/southwest of Airdrie for about 45 minutes. As planes
approached, the object would start to move up and then move back
down to it=92s original position. The gentleman reports that
whatever this thing was, it has been seen a number of times over
the last five months and is returning more frequently. A slight
hum was noted coming from the direction where the object was
hovering. Something rather important about this sighting is that
in the 45 minutes it was visible before the object was covered
over by cloud cover, it did not move from it=92s position other
than it moving up and down when a normal aircraft was close by.
The witness also said there was light reflecting off it, which
would have been from the setting sun. So it sounds like whatever
it was had a solid body to it, besides the five rows of lights
which ran around the object. The colour of the lights in the
ring were from red, blue, white and a yellow to amber. The
lights were also reported moving counter clockwise around the
object.

=95 Airdrie: Sept. 15 (from 11 p.m. until midnight)

HBCC UFO Research reported on a sighting which took place on
Sept. 15. "The witness said, =91I know what I saw,=92 and it was a
big circle of lights twirling around and hovering above the
(Highway 2) walkway," Vike recounted.

"(Then) on Dec. 19, I received a call from a really nice lady
who wanted to tell me a rather unusual story. This again took
place back on Sept. 15, 2003, sometime between 11 p.m. and
midnight. Although she admits she and her family did not see
anything unusual, the witness reports their dog was acting very
weird. On the night of Sept. 15 and two days following, the
family dog would not sleep with the owners =96 it paced back and
forth and even jumped up on top of a dresser. The pet would not
settle down, so the lady=92s husband put the dog out just in case
it needed to do its business and the dog ran to the fence and
just stood there. The family pet is six years old and the family
told me the dog has never acted like this in prior years. This
was a first! Something else the lady mentioned =96 which again I
found of interest =96 was on the night their dog was acting up,
only in the night did the dog go to the west side of the inside
of their home, get up on the dresser and sit looking out the
window. The dog was very stressed out.

"The next day the lady=92s husband went to his work place in
Airdrie and happened to mention how strange their dog was acting
that night. To his surprise, his co-workers all told him that
their pets were acting the very same and took a couple of days
before all these animals finally settled down.

"All of the families who reported their pets acting unusual live
in the one area or close by. Also what is interesting is the
night the Airdrie witness reported seeing the ring of lights
hovering over the walkway, she also lives in the area where all
the pets started acting strangely."

Sightings normally explainable

A recent flurry of witness reports of strange lights and objects
in the skies in and around Airdrie may be thought provoking and
food for extraterrestrial thought.

But one of Canada=92s leading UFO researchers and investigators
said that when he receives a report, his first course of duty is
to attempt to establish a logical explanation for what has been
witnessed.

And according to Brian Vike, if that can=92t be done the sighting
is then =96 and only then =96 classified as an unidentified flying
object.

"HBCC UFO Research (Vike=92s operation) is very grateful to the
residents in Airdrie for taking the time to sit and write up
their sighting reports, or calling my toll-free number to report
what it was they witnessed," Vike said. "Alberta residents have
reported many unusual sightings over the many years =96 some can
be explained away as simple meteors, planets, stars and the
return of space debris."

But that=92s not always the case.

"There are also the sightings that no explanation can be found
for what people are seeing," Vike said. "Actually, in past
years, folks have reported some close up encounters where
farmers have seen many objects flying overhead, some even
landing and leaving behind markings on the ground."

So what are these strange flying crafts? A super secret military
project? Normal aircraft which has been misidentified? Or are we
being visited from elsewhere?

"These are the questions I would like to have answers for," Vike
said. "But as it stands right now, Airdrie seems to be having a
good number of sightings taking place and I wonder just how many
more are not being reported."

And the more information, the better.

"I would like to request that if any resident living in Airdrie
or folks living in surrounding communities have witnessed
something odd, that they please contact me," Vike said.

To do so, contact Vike at HBCC UFO Research=92s Canadian toll free
UFO Hotline at 1-866-262-1989 or by e-mail at: hbccufo@telus.net






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   Dec > Dec 25

                   Linguist Author Charles Berlitz 90 Dies

From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman@maine.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 20:47:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 08:02:50 -0500
Subject: Linguist Author Charles Berlitz 90 Dies


Washington Times, Washington, DC
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20031224-090242-9597r.htm

Linguist, author Charles Berlitz dies

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla., Dec. 24 (UPI) -- Charles Berlitz of Fort
Lauderdale, Fla., a well-known linguist and author of the book
"The Bermuda Triangle, has died.

The Miami Herald reported Wednesday that he died last week at
the age of 90 at University Hospital in Tamarac, Fla.

Berlitz was the grandson of Maximilian Berlitz, who founded the
international chain of language schools.

Charles Berlitz was also considered a top linguist and spoke
several languages.

He was head of publications for the Berlitz Co. in New York
before retiring to Fort Lauderdale.

He also spent 13 years on active duty in the U.S. Army, mostly
in intelligence.

He is the author of several books on the paranormal in addition
to "The Bermuda Triangle," including "Without a Trace" and "The
Roswell Incident."

The cause of death Thursday was not disclosed.








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   Dec > Dec 25

                 HBCC UFO's 'Relentless' Reports - 12-24-03

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo@telus.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:40:13 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 08:07:27 -0500
Subject: HBCC UFO's 'Relentless' Reports - 12-24-03



Hi List

Here I am back with my "relentless" reports. This may give a few
something to do. Plus I just posted the Airdie Echo newspaper
article about a number of other sightings I have received from
that area, well there are more and will be out in the next
edition of their newspaper. I think for the last little while
there has been 13 or 14 ? reports come into me from Airdrie,
Alberta. I just fired a few reports in below, there are others
for Canada but I am not sure I have or haven't posted. So once
my site is finished off, everything will be posted there.

-----

Airdrie, Alberta

Date:  December 24, 2003
Time:  1:00 p.m.

A gentleman called me today, December 24, 2003 to report a
sighting he had, along with two other witnesses who were in his
company at the time. The witness (driver) who called is a ex
military man (air defense). The first thing the witness asked,
did HBCC UFO receive any reports from around 1:00 p.m. today. I
told the fellow that I had not received any other than his call.
He was sure that two other vehicles had observed the same object
he and his passengers witnessed as the two vehicles in front of
him braked the same time he did. He also mentioned that if he
had of been by himself he may not have reported seeing this
strange object over Airdrie. The two passengers who had an early
Christmas at another home received a pair of binoculars as a
gift, which I packed away with other gifts in a bag in the
vehicle. The witnesses had just come out of their home and were
driving down 8th Street heading south. Approximately two minutes
the driver said to the passengers, what the heck it that?
Approximately one kilometer away from their location they all
saw what looked like a large round ball or chrome colored marble
as he described it sitting stationary in the sky above a colored
shack which is on the opposite side of Big Springs Road.

All of the witnesses were very excited, or in his words,
freaking out as to what they were seeing. The driver told one of
the passengers to grab his new binoculars so they might get a
better look at this strange object. After the binoculars were
located in the bag filled with gifts they zoomed in on the
object. The driver slowed the vehicle down so the ones holding
the binoculars could get a better view of it. The sphere did not
move, it sat hovering in the one location. From when they first
noticed it, they said the whole event may have lasted for
approximately 15 or 20 seconds before it disappeared. It "did
not shoot off" in any direction. It just vanished !! (blinked
out) The driver who said he had worked in air defense for many
years and was very familiar with what is flying in our skies,
said he has never seen anything like this in his life. Also the
witnesses roughly estimated the object may have been hovering at
an altitude of 500 to 1000 feet. The driver later on that day
ended up driving back to the shack where the object was seen
hovering above. He parked his vehicle and got out and had a good
look around just in case he might have been able to see it
again, or to see if there may have been any physical evidence
left around this area. After a short while on location he told
me that he felt rather uneasy and got back into his vehicle and
left the area.

After they witnesses had watched this unusual object they picked
up the Airdrie Echo newspaper and spotted a new articles on a
few sightings which were recently reported to the newspaper.
This is how the fellow found out about myself and knew he should
make a report over what they saw.

Brian, Director of HBCC UFO Research would like to hear from
anyone who may have witnessed this strange sighting.

I would like to thank the witnesses from their report.

------------------

Coquitlam, British Columbia

Date:  November 2003
Time:  Daylight (late afternoon).

The witness reports seeing a elongated, whitish/silver shaped
light just below the cloud cover. He said the object was not
streaking through, but moving along . The fellow said he is
familiar with many types of aircraft and what ever this was, was
not something he could explain. He was driving his mothers car
at the time, when he just happened to look up and he noticed the
object and it was gone within seconds. The witness said it just
vanished, he didn't think it flew into the cloud cover, more
like it just blinked out.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------


Valleyfield,  Quebec

Date:  December 21, 2003
Time:  n/a

Actual report: I saw several planes fly by in the sky. I live on
the 3rd floor. Those were not 2 planes close to each other, the
speed was so high that it couldn't be an airplane. Two white
balls following each other for 15 seconds. The sky is cloudy. It
can't be 2 planes flying too close to each other.


--------------


Montreal, Quebec.

Date: 1991
Time: evening, (still light out)

I took a report from a fellow who use to live in Ontario back in
the 1990s. He informs me that a car load of his friends headed
off to see some bands playing one night. He informs me that one
of the bands was not allowed into the province due to problems
with Canada Customs. Seeing there wasn't going to be the band
playing that they really wanted to see, they decided to stop by
some record stores in the Montreal area to grab some new music
before heading back home. As they were heading back home, taking
Highway #40 between Montreal. This is when they all saw
something very unusual. it was still light out and the fellows
first thought they were watching a police helicopter staying
stationary in the sky. Still thinking the object looked rather
odd they slowed the vehicle and watched, eventfully they pulled
the car over to the side of the road and got out to have a
better look at this thing.

After they all watched it, it did start to move away and
extremely fast. They knew that it could not have been a
helicopter just due to the speed it was moving at. He said it
may have been in the shape of a cube, or rectangular is shape.
The witness told me it may have been dark in color, like
charcoal. But it was hard to tell for sure. While these men were
watching this strange sight, three cars and a van had already
pulled off to the side of the highway on the opposite side of
the road from them and were all watching the same object. After
the object had moved off and out of sighting, the fellows
continued on their way back home wondering what is was they just
witnessed.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-------------

Des Rivi=E8res and Duberger Park, Qu=E9bec

Date:  December 1,  2003
Time:  10:30 p.m.

I was taking a walk in the park. After analyzing the event, this
is how it went. I was looking at the stars in the sky.This was a
rare night for the season, we could see the sky. I was looking
west, the view was clearer. I was observing clouds forming far
away towards east, they were very high in altitude. I thought
for a moment it was an aurora borealis, a few minutes later it
passed over my head without me realizing it. It moved but with
the impression it was motionless. Strangely mobile for something
immobile. The sky was now clear again. I was wondering about it
and I was looking at the stars. I saw two aligned celestial
bodies. Last vestiges of the great alignment of November. It was
magical. I wondered about what could have passed over our heads
when the sky was cloudy.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------

Saudia Arabia

Date:  December 12, 2003
Time:  04:05 GMT

Actual location of sighting: Saudia Arabia, by the gulf,  200 km
 south of Kuwait

It was Friday morning ,me and my son 15 years old in the desert
coming from a friend's camp which was off road. We saw an
airplane from one mile and my son said oh, air plane. I said yes
this is a Saudi Aramco air plane. They have a few of them to
shuttle there staff and also helicopters using same route on a
daily bases.  While we were driving, traveling 30 miles speed we
saw a plane and it did not move. We came close to it, it was on
our right side not far away, maybe 300 meter in the air. So we
stopped to see it. I thought it is going to land or had a
problem, but Safaniah is 40 km away so we came to complete stop.
The plane still in the same place. I thought it was Harrier
fighter plane (saw them during gulf war) but this one is white
and so beautiful. The minute we stopped, I asked my son to make
right turn towards it and this thing started moving north.  We
both said oh it is moving now, good but moving at a high rate of
speed. May be 10 seconds and it is gone. Nothing else in the sky
as it was a clear day too. By the way my son was driving off
road and only under my supervision. It was capsule in shape, no
windows.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research

------------


Callicoon, NY

Date:  February 1998
Time:  Evening

During the second week in February 1998, myself and three
friends(1 guy, 2 girls + myself) went to Villa Roma Ski Resort
in Callicoon, NY. Surrounded by hills and woods.On the third
night there we all got in a big argument and one of my friends (
female) stormed out of the room to blow off some steam. She was
gone a little while and we started to get nervous, so I went to
go look for her. It was a very clear, very cold night. I
remember thinking to myself"Wow! I never knew there were this
many stars in the sky. I looked around the area for 15-20 min.
Then started to head back to our condo. Right before I got to
the front of the condo I thought I saw a helicopter or something
fly off to the left of me. The strange thing was, I didn't hear
a thing! I walked around to the left of the condo, looked up. In
the air was a craft of some kind. It looked oval in shape.
Glowing in kind of a whitish, bluish haze. Flying in what I
believe was a northerly direction. Moving very very fast.

Then it almost seemed to notice that that I was watching and
made a u-turn right back at me. ( now moving south)Moving slower
now. Kind of bouncing around in the air. Fluttering! Like when
you throw a Frisbee. It was almost surreal. Then it stopped.
Directly in front of me. Out at about a 45 degrees. Not directly
over me.I was so scared I just stood there with my mouth open.
Frozen with fear. Just staring up in the sky for what I think
was at least 15 min. But to this day I am still not sure how
long I was out there. Then it just swung from a stand still to
taking off into space. ( it went from a stopped position, then
South, then swung west into space,then out of view). I had to
adjust my eyes over and over again to make myself believe what I
was seeing.

By the time it moved away from me it looked like a star shooting
across the sky. If I hadn't seen what happened prior to it
jetting off into space I would've just assumed it was a star.
But I know it wasn't.

I went straight back to the condo and told everyone.All my
girlfriend cared about was "what the hell took so long". I
didn't think they believed me at all so I stopped talking about
it. I feel I did the wrong thing by not coming forward when this
happened. All three people can testify as to my state when I
reentered the condo. I believe that one of those people(the
woman who I was looking for) may have witnessed the event also,
but to this day I have not asked her. She seemed unresponsive
when I described what I saw.I will swear to this and submit to
Polygraph.  There is much more I would like to discuss. Possibly
three other sightings. And witnesses other than myself to two of
them.


Brian Vike
Director
HBCC UFO Research

-----------------

Glen Rose,Texas

Date:   December 16, 2003
Time:  10:50 p.m to 10:55 p.m

I was walking out to my truck to head to work. I work the night
shift and its located very close to my home so that allows me to
leave about 5-10 min. before 11:00 p.m. to make it there on
time. Just as a habit I looked up to the night sky to gaze at
the stars. Off in the distance toward the west and moving
east/north east I spotted what I thought was a very low flying
plane. As I continued to watch the object some things began to
occur to me. On the out skirts of my home town there is a TXU
Nuclear Power Plant about 5 miles out.

We don't often see low flying anything because of it. As the
object came closer I noticed 3 very dim lights on it. On the
left was a green light and on the right was a red light. In the
middle, slightly higher was another red light but it was
noticeably smaller than the two on either side of it. I know
that all planes have lights that display these colors but these
lights weren't blinking that were on constantly and did not
flash once. I was still thinking that this might be a plane but
there was no sound and with how low it was flying anything
moving or flying through the air would have some sort of engine
noise but this thing was perfectly silent and steadily moving
ahead.

Not until the object passed over head did I see the true shape
of it and it was a perfect triangle and looked mostly black or a
dark grey. I jumped in my truck and tried to follow the flying
triangle but lost sight of it behind nearby houses and trees as
I made my way to the road. By the time I reached the road it was
hardly visible and disappeared into the night sky. I estimate
the size to be about that of a private jet or small commercial
carrier and the speed at about 50 mph and the height that it was
flying between 120-130 feet. I don't know or assume the object
had anything to do with the nuclear power plant but I think they
may have some sort of radar that could have possibly detected
the object. Please email me back if you or anyone else might
have any info on this event or let me know if there were any
other reported sightings in the area.

Thank you to this witness for their report.

-----

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Canadian Toll Free UFO Hotline 1 866 262 1989 - Free call.
Home - Phone/Fax 1 250 845 2189
HBCC UFO Forum Board
http://216.147.50.102/HBCC-UFO/index.php
email: hbccufo@telus.net
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com






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   Dec > Dec 25

             Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - LeFevre

From: Charlette LeFevre <clefevre@oz.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 20:58:13 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 08:13:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - LeFevre


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:19:33 -0500
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>...Unless there is some really hard evidence for it, accusing
>someone of intentionally_ lying or deceiving is pretty strong
>and damaging stuff. Several people have very flippantly accused
>Maussan of manufacturing and spreading lies and deceptions about
>UFO cases that do not exist. That kind of thing without being
>accompanied by hard evidence (just like a UFO case) is nothing
>more than a smear on the character of 'whoever' is being
>portrayed that way."

>... and if people do not want to be 'sued' they should be able
>to _prove_ their public accusations that some person is an
>_intentional_ hoaxer and liar.

John,

Jaime Maussan does indeed have to answer to a major issues in
his past before claiming to be journalisticly balanced and
accurate or at least responsible before taken seriously in the
U.S.

It was the world's largest UFO hoaxer Reed who went on to Mexico
and Japan after he milked the US market for all its worth.

The Seattle Group proved definitively in April 2001 that Reed's
story was a created among a small group of friends when we
confirmed with their employer and room mates. We certainly
checked and documented our facts before we posted even though we
knew it would not be popular.

We sent Jaime our report of the facts and he certainly confirmed
his knowledge of our statements as evidenced by his replies and
requests in the following months that same year.

Jaime even now still supports the "case" even stating he was
still analyzing soil samples at his UFO Congress presentation
and has yet to mention any of Seattle investigator's findings.
 Balanced and fair reporting?

These soil samples were "secretly" obtained by his assistant
Daniel Munoz who came to Washington and rather deceptively never
notified any local investigators of his visit. Not that he was
obligated but certainly a disregard for relevant information.
Obviously, Jaime's interest is in ratings and only presenting
one side when technically there should be no sides. Some would
say there is no harm but this is not responsible for consumers
and ultimately damages reputations.

>Royce was able to prove that Morton was full of 'it' in an open
>court of law and in the end, he won the case. But... Morton was
>able to initiate litigation against Royce because Royce was
>calling him a "liar and a hoaxer" in public. (The UFO Watchdog
>website.)

Poor example to use Royce as an example of "proving" hoaxers. I
think even Royce has to admit he gets his information primarily
second hand.

Royce never "proved" that Sean Morton was improperly stating his
background or fabricating. Rather Royce only "won" the case
because of filing deadlines. (Interesting you only hear of the
case from Royce which of course only sheds himself in a good
light and no statements from Morton). Hypocritical in reporting
both sides wouldn't you say?

>All I want to do is hear both sides and be able to make up my
>own mind...

No, I'll take issue with both Maussan and Royce and call them on
the floor as both examples of tabloid journalism.

Maussan may at times be reporting on a legitimate case but his
past reputation makes him difficult to take seriously.

Perhaps as a rule if there are any issues involving a case, an
objective third party that doesn't stand to profit or garner
noteriety might do well to report.











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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 25

               Animal Mutilations & Covert Monitoring For BSE

From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <colm_kelleher@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 19:48:54 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 08:10:12 -0500
Subject: Animal Mutilations & Covert Monitoring For BSE


Now that surprisingly, there has been an official report of BSE
in Washington State it is worth carefully examining the NIDS
report, published 6 months ago, on the temporal and geographical
relationship between BSE and animal mutilations.

http://216.128.67.116/pdf/cattledeaths_tse_epidemic.pdf

I think a careful reading of this report will reveal a potential
public health catastrophe that is lying beneath the surface in
North American culinary habits.


Sincerely

Colm Kelleher
NIDS








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 25

                Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:02:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 08:20:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Colvin



From: James J. Lippard <lippard-skeptic@discord.org>
  To: skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:38:29 -0700
Subj: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:28:24 -0600
>Subject: Re: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Clark


>Jim,

>I hope that we can roll up this discussion soon. I'm sure you
>have other things to do. I know I do. And it is, after all,
>almost Christmas, and I do have a family. I'm writing this only
>because if I don't respond, I know the predictable reaction.

Sure, we can wrap it up. I'm going to cut a lot out of this
response in order to answer the questions you asked and make
a few short comments. (Though it still ended up longer than
I intended.)

<snip>

>I have no idea how SI works financially, though from my
>experience in publishing I suppose I can speculate. Probably
>some of it comes from subscription revenue, the rest from
>subsidies accumulated from CSICOP's relentless fund drives, in
>which Fate, which ran more advertising than SI, did not engage.
>CSICOP's money, I'm sure, comes largely from donations. That is
>not a criticism.

This is a matter of public record, which I posted in another
thread which may not have been forwarded to you. A minority of
CSICOP funding comes from donations. The majority comes from
"program service revenue" - subscriptions, conference
memberships, sales of back issues, and sales of mugs, t-shirts,
etc. In their 2002 Form 990, they reported $433,659 in "direct
public support" (i.e., donations), $1,056,552 in "program
service revenue," $249,664 in "gross profit from sales of
inventory," $9,613 in dividends from securities, a loss of
$10,452 from other investments, and $5,058 in sales of assets
other than inventory. Total revenue: $1,744,094. Total expenses:
$1,626,412, of which $229,523 went for management expenses
(including salaries, office supplies, etc.), $1,182,551 went for
"program services" (publishing the magazine, putting on the
conferences), and $214,338 went for fundraising efforts.

BTW, the official purpose of CSICOP in its 990 is "To prepare,
compile, edit and publish from time to time on a not-for-profit
basis, a scholarly journal of articles and to hold educational
conferences on an annual basis."

<snip>

>I have no doubt that Shermer (pardon the typo, and thanks for
>the correction, so as to remove any confusion here) is sincere.
>I also believe that he is a bright, well-intentioned guy, and
>I'll bet you anything that he gets bigger advances on his books
>than I do. Judging from the newspaper, radio, and television
>support (including actual specials and, if memory serves, a
>series) he's gotten, he had a publisher who put a decent amount
>of money into the promotion of his book (whose subject, for
>Updates readers unfamiliar with it, was the always gripping
>topic of why people presume to hold opinions different from
>Shermer's).

One thing I've noticed in this conversation is that you've
repeatedly personalized the comparison, as though you are the
standard by which pro-paranormal income is to be measured. In my
experience, those who are most successful (both in financial
terms and in terms of getting their message out) tend to be Type
A personalities with large egos, be somewhat charismatic, have a
gift for public speech, and are very driven to perform and
succeed. If you lack those characteristics, then it is most
likely that fact, rather than the content of your speech, that
is responsible for a lack of success as compared to Shermer.
Shermer also has an academic credential - a Ph.D. in history of
science - that unquestionably opens doors for both skeptics and
advocates of the paranormal.

But even so, please note that Shermer's skeptical series was
aired on the Fox Family channel, a cable channel many services
don't even get, and was, I believe, the first and possibly still
the only TV series the skeptics have had.

BTW, Shermer has authored quite a few books, none of which have
the subject you describe (I assume you are referring to "Why
People Believe Weird Things"). His other books include How We
Believe (scientific evidence regarding religious belief), The
Borderlands of Science, Denying History (Holocaust revisionism),
The Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience, In Darwin's Shadow
(biography of Alfred Russel Wallace), and a new one coming out
called The Science of Good and Evil, among others.

>I wish that serious anomalistic and paranormal works got
>comparable support, and comparable access to the sorts of
>major media Shermer's received.

But I think they do.

Shermer is a good example to look at, because I think he clearly
exhibits the crossover between scholarly work and popularization
that it usually takes to get any major media attention at all
(whether you're a skeptic or an advocate of the paranormal).
Look at who he gets put on the air with, and how much air time
he gets - most of the time, he is there responding to an
advocate, is only there because the advocate is there, and gets
less time than the advocate does. That has changed somewhat in
his favor _because_ he has parlayed his past media experiences
into future ones (he has performed well on television) and
because he has authored works where he's making positive claims
and has something to promote.

What you fail to see is that the exposure he gets is not because
the mainstream media loves skeptics and has an anti-paranormal
bias, but because he knows how to produce the kinds of sound
bites that the television producers like.

If you look at content alone, the paranormal and the unusual has
an inherent advantage in getting popular attention over the
normal, the conventional, the skeptical treatment.

If you look at popular polls on belief, for any individual
paranormal phenomenon the believers are likely to be a minority,
but for any average person on the street you are likely to find
at least one that they believe, and they won't be subscribers to
the Skeptical Inquirer.

If you look at any specific claim or fields, you are likely to
find that more people are familiar with the pro-paranormal claim
than the skeptical response to it - even if they disbelieve in
the particular claim, they are unlikely to be familiar with
CSICOP or the skeptics.

If you go to the library to research any specific claim or
field, you are likely to find more works endorsing the pro-
paranormal view than the skeptical view.

If you do a search on Google for "UFOs" or "parapsychology" or
"cryptozoology", you are going to find more sites advocating
belief in those fields than skeptical sites.

If you eliminate everything from the above except for those that
are backed by somebody with a Ph.D., I think the results will
narrow, but the paranormal side is still likely to come out
ahead.

Where you are correct is that if you look for an organization
that backs the skeptical viewpoint on your three selected
fields, you find CSICOP (though it covers far more than those
three fields), while if you search for an organization that
promotes those three selected fields (and no others), you don't
find one.

You are likely also correct that there is no organization
promoting any of those three fields, restricted to serious,
scholarly work, with a crossover into popularization to the
degree that Skeptical Inquirer and Skeptic do. But I think
that's because organizations in those three fields tend to
either remain completely in the scholarly realm (e.g., the
Society for Scientific Exploration), or to cross over completely
into popularization and sensationalization - and it's the latter
that get money from the general public.

If I wanted to promote scholarly investigation of your three
fields, I'd be encouraging people to get legitimate academic
degrees and positions in academia, where once they get tenure,
they can teach anything they like and are likely to get a lot of
media attention for heterodox views (witness John Mack).

>>I don't see anything to disagree with here, though I will note
>>that for the vast majority of skeptics, including leaders of
>>skeptical organizations and those published in skeptical
>>publications and chapters of skeptical books, their skeptical
>>work is a net expense, not a source of income.

>The same, of course, is overwhelming true for researchers of
>anomalies and the paranormal.

I agree.

>>And even for those who have published skeptical books, it is
>>only those who have found mainstream publishers who have earned
>>any serious money. I suspect royalties for many skeptical books
>>are paid in the low double-digits.

>And of course the same is overwhelmingly true for writers
>on anomalies and the paranormal.

I agree.

>>Lippard:
>>>>Sagan is a science popularizer who got famous because of Cosmos
>>>>- it wasn't debunking that made him rich. He was able to make
>>>>money on works that contained debunking material because his
>>>>name sold books, not because people love to give money to
>>>>skeptics.

>>Clark:
>>>People sure seemed to like reading Sagan's debunking, which
>>>seemed integral to any of his books that I ever read. No pro-UFO
>>>or-anomaly writer has ever seen sales figures like Sagan's. I
>>>don't begrudge the success of any honest writer, but I do object
>>>to sanctimonious claims about one side's supposedly superior
>>>virtue and the other's allegedly superior income.

>>I am skeptical that it is debunking per se that attracts people
>>to Sagan's work.

>And, based on my own experience of interaction with Sagan
>enthusiastists and my observations of same, I am skeptical of
>your assessment. Let's leave it at that, okay - what gentlemen
>call an agreement to disagree? My views on Sagan and his impact
>on relevant matters have been published elsewhere. It can be
>reasonably argued, I think, that Sagan was the most famous and
>influential debunker in the popular culture of our time.

No, let's not leave it at that. I think you're making a mistaken
inference here.

Skeptics tend to be Sagan enthusiasts. I suspect that the Sagan
enthusiasts you are likely to come in contact with are skeptics.

But Sagan has a much wider appeal than that, and that's why he
got famous and made money from things like Cosmos and Contact.

See also my points above about Shermer.

>>Lippard:

>>We agree that Nova is a quality show. I agree that it is nearly
>>always critical of anomalistic claims, but I think we disagree
>>about the cause. You attribute it to an "elite media bias." I
>>attribute it to where the weight of the evidence lies.

>I guess you and I will also disagree to disagree about that.

>You are expressing an extraordinarily simplistic, and often
>debunked, view of how science works - essentially, in a vacuum,
>and according to textbook claims as opposed to actual practice,
>thus obviating any need for, among other things, social-science
>inquiry into science and scientists (who, after all, are just
>automatons processing data according to universally applied
>standards of objectivity). But this is, after all, UFO UpDates,
>where things get written in a hurry and people have to go back
>to the concerns of real life. I would like to think that you do,
>in fact, know better, and I suspect you do.

I don't know how you got _that_ from anything I said. My view of
science is along the lines expressed in Philip Kitcher's book,
_The Advancement of Science_. I reject both the view that social
factors are irrelevant and the view that only the social factors
are relevant (e.g., strong programme in sociology of science;
anti-realist views like advocated by Bruno Latour and Steve
Woolgar in their book _Laboratory Life_).

>>Lippard:
>>>>I think your view of the paranormal and anomalies is oddly
>>>>narrow, completely omitting (for another example) the multi-
>>>>billion dollar field of alternative medicine, which even has
>>>>substantial U.S. government funding these days.

>>Clark:
>>>I wasn't aware that alternative medicine is "paranormal". Again,
>>>this goes to your definition of anomalies and the paranormal as
>>>"anything I don't like."

>>Most alternative medicine is not paranormal, but certainly makes
>>anomalistic claims. Some is explicitly paranormal (for example,
>>any alternative medicine claims made in terms of chi, life
>>force, mentally induced powers of healing, etc.).

>"Most alternative medicine is not paranormal." My point all
>along. Psychic healing (in which prayer often plays a role),

You missed the anomalies part, though. You have been talking
about a category that is the union of paranormal and anomalies,
but I think you have been narrowing it with additional
attributes, one of which is scholarly, and one of which seems to
be something along the lines of "has developed into a field of
study that at least some people, e.g., practitioners, think is
already its own independent science" - e.g., a fringe science or
proto-science.

>which does make paranormal claims, is something relevant to
>parapsychology's concerns, one of which is psychokinesis. I have
>no great interest in parapsychology, but I know enough about it
>to be aware that parapsychologists have researched the subject
>and published scientific work on it. In that narrow sense,
>"alternative medicine" - one form of it, anyway - falls under
>the rubric I understand.

<snip>

>>I find it quite ironic that, in order to respond to my
>>characterization of your definitions of "paranormal and
>>anomalies" as far too narrow, you accuse me of broadening my
>>definition in order to encompass a larger sphere of "things I
>>don't like." The fact of the matter is that I have a broader
>>sphere of "things I am interested in" which involve claims
>>contrary to current scientific theory.

>Just like me, I imagine. It's just that I don't put everything
>representing an unorthodox view under the heading of "anomalies
>and the paranormal." A book I will write next year deals with
>unorthodox views of politics and history, many of them strange
>indeed, but that doesn't make them paranormal in any ordinarily
>understood sense of the term.

I agree that conspiracy theories don't count as paranormal.

I think that religious claims may or may not count as
paranormal. I think part of the intent of coining the term
"paranormal" was to distinguish it from "supernatural," which is
the realm of religion, but the phenomena described by religion
as supernatural tend to have exact analogues as paranormal
claims. To the extent that religious claims have such analogues,
they can be empirically investigated and it is reasonable to
call them paranormal.

I think the main difference is that the religious advocate
typically (not universally) doesn't give a damn about empirical
evidence, the paranormal advocate typically does (again not
universally).

>>Clark:
>>>>>Anybody who's written a book arguing a positive view of the UFO
>>>>>phenomenon (or cryptozoology, a secondary interest of mine), as
>>>>>I have, knows beyond any doubt whatever what the sales figures
>>>>>are. I am unaware of any book of scientific parapsychology that
>>>>>has been a great financial success in decades. Anyone who argues
>>>>>otherwise is simply insulting both my intelligence and my
>>>>>eyesight.

>>Lippard:
>>>>I agree with this statement, but again, I think you are oddly
>>>>narrowing what you are describing in order to make your argument
>>>>work. It does work when you narrow it that way, but that's
>>>>certainly not the argument I took you to be making earlier.

>What's with this "you" business? You act as if only _I_ think

I think it's the appropriate pronoun - I note that we are both
using it.

>that the controversy over anomalies and the paranormal - as
>opposed to popular folklore and ideas you don't like - properly
>focuses on the concerns of what Henry Bauer calls the "big
>three." You apparently demand that I acknowledge that the claims
>of astrology, creationism, alternative medicine (beyond, as
>noted, psychic healing), and other matters - not discussed in
>the anomalous literature I read and which are of no interest to
>me or my colleagues - are part of the discussion and definition.
>Why?

See above. I've already defined how I'm using the terms
"paranormal" and "anomalies", and I've attempted to express how
I think you are using them differently. Bauer may refer to the
three areas you have chosen to be the be-all and end-all of
"paranormal and anomalies" as the "big three," but I am
relatively certain that he does not consider their conjunction
to be equivalent to "paranormal and anomalies" since he himself
has written on fields that fall into the latter, but not the
former, and which he considers to be serious. E.g., Cold Fusion.

BTW, on the subject of how science works, I think his book
_Scientific Literacy and the Myth of the Scientific Method_
expresses it pretty well, though without some of the
philosophical underpinning and with some differences from
Kitcher (referenced above). I recommend it.

>The more I read you, the less, I confess, I know what you're
>talking about. You seem to be all over the place. Is _any_
>controversy - scientific, proto-scientific, quasi-scientific, or
>pseudo-scientific - ultimately about anomalies and the
>paranormal?

I think anomalies may play a part in many such controversies, but
certainly not all - e.g., any case where there is not sufficient data
to give preference to one theory over another simply on the basis of
the data, which is frequent. And certainly not many such
controversies are about the paranormal.

<snip>

>That's a weird observation. Are you denying that Prometheus
>publishes skeptical manuscripts which otherwise would have a
>hard time finding a publisher? _Really?_ Perhaps you failed to

No, I certainly would not deny that.

What I do deny is that it is therefore easier to get skeptical
works published than works promoting the paranormal, which you
appear to be arguing on the basis of there not being a Prometheus
equivalent for your big three.

Looking at what's published, if you want to write a skeptical
book about the Roswell Incident, you must go to Prometheus
(three titles, by Karl Pflock, Phil Klass, and Kal Korff). If
you want to write an extraterrestrial spacecraft book about the
Roswell Incident, you go to HarperCollins (William Moore and
Charles Berlitz), Simon and Schuster (Philip Corso), HarperTorch
(Jim Marrs), Avon (Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt, and Kevin
Randle on his own), M. Evans and Company (Randle and Schmitt),
Marlowe and Company (Don Berliner and Stanton Friedman), or
Inner Light Publications (Randle), among others.

I will mention but not dwell on the fact that this particular
example also provoked multiple specials on Fox, regular
references in the ten seasons of the X Files, and spawned a
network broadcast TV series (yes, it was UPN) that lasted four
seasons. Those are clearly not only in the popular column rather
than the scholarly column, but either sensationalized or purely
intended as entertainment. There is, however, clearly a
significant revenue stream there to be tapped into, that simply
doesn't exist for skeptics. (Not that there should be - the
skeptical view of Roswell would make for a rather dull TV
series.)

>understand what I was saying, and in that case it may be my own
>fault. If so, apologies. I wasn't saying that these books were
>or are _unworthy_ of publication (though I confess that a few
>Prometheus titles have so struck not just me), only that without
>Prometheus there to rescue them they probably wouldn't have been
>published for reasons having nothing to do with their inherent
>quality or general worthiness.

I'll even agree with you that Prometheus has published some crap
(as well as things that clearly sell well but have nothing to do
with CSICOP-style skepticism).

<snip>

I've deleted an exchange about publishing that followed the above.
I will defer to your experience; I'm sure you are correct that the
typical scholarly work within your big three areas will have great
trouble finding a mainstream publisher. I will note that it is
easier than ever to create and sell a self-published work, with
the advent of print-on-demand publishing.

>If I were to live my life again, I would not go anywhere near
>these subjects, and especially in expectation of making enough
>money from writing (seriously) about them to make any kind of
>living a man of my age and experience ought to expect. The
>details are nobody's business, so I'll let it go at that.
>Suffice it to say, however, that among my friends and colleagues
>I am far, far from alone in holding these sentiments. In my
>next life, I'll work for CSICOP, where you can actually get a
>job that pays and, morever, provides benefits (I presume).

Ah, but if you try that you will (a) be going near those
subjects and (b) be poor, assuming you actually were able to get
one of the very few paying positions that even exist. (You did
see, above, that the total annual expense for administration
including all salaries was just over $200K? The top paying
position is around $60K, and almost all of the rest are much,
much lower. You'd most likely be better off getting a Ph.D. and
going into academia, even though that is not generally a career
path known for its revenue generation possibilities.)

>>>>CSICOP's being wealthier than CUFOS is but a single point
>>>>comparison. Again, I think you've narrowed the comparison.

>>>Which serious, pro-anomaly research group - say the open-minded
>>>equivalent of CSICOP - is as wealthy as CSICOP? I have never
>>>heard of one, and it is surely significant that you don't
>>>mention one. That is because, of course, no such group exists.

>>Again, I think the correct comparison is in the aggregate rather
>>than individual group to individual group. Even if CSICOP were
>>the wealthiest single organization in the field (which it may
>>be), that doesn't mean that skeptics are better funded than
>>promoters of anomalies overall.

>That's simple nonsense. If the best you can come up with is
>Bigelow's project (of which, moreover, hardly anybody's heard
>and whose work and conclusions are unknown to the larger public
>[even to most anomalists], and from which scarcely an anomalist
>anywhere on the planet is going to see a nickel for his or her
>own work), this discussion has pretty much run its course.

When you say "That's simple nonsense," are you referring to the
comparison I'm saying should be made, or to the outcome of that
comparison? I emphatically believe it's the right comparison,
though I could, with evidence, be persuaded that I'm wrong about
the outcome. (I may well be wrong about the outcome if we
compare the "big three" you speak of to CSICOP, though there I
think the fair comparison would be to the portion of CSICOP
devoted to the "big three.")

[FT issues deleted.]

>It is my view that, as a general principle in the modern world,
>science and religion are best kept in their respective spheres. In
>any event, I just don't see this as something we need to be
>discussing here. Maybe over a beer or two somewhere, but not
>here.

That view is a respectable one, also endorsed by Stephen Jay
Gould, though I do disagree with it on the grounds that those
spheres overlap in a number of ways (religion is a phenomenon
which can be studied via anthropology, sociology, evolutionary
psychology, etc.; and religions typically make some claims that
are subject to empirical study, though those claims tend not to
be central to what makes the religion function - they are usually
window dressing).

<snip>

>>Clark:
>>>claims (e.g., the Resurrection of Christ), and biblical
>>>archaeology, for example, investigates historical origins,
>>>sometimes consciously seeking to validate biblical claims.
>
>>A perfectly legitimate field of scientific study, by the way.

>So, given your broad definitions of these things, you do include
>organized religion under the rubric of moneymaking paranormal
>advocacy groups?

No, given the distinction I draw above between "paranormal" and
"supernatural." The supernatural claims of religions that have
paranormal analogues are such that they don't need to be
literally true for the religious function to be served, and the
religious attitude towards such phenomena is simply to accept
them as signs that don't require any investigation, and to
reject attempts to explain them or explain them away via
empirical investigation.

While I do think that religions are worth arguing against, that
requires philosophical argument as well as science. It's not
part of the scope of CSICOP or most skeptical organizations, including
the Phoenix Skeptics group which I founded, except where they make
factual claims that are subject to empirical investigation.

<snip>

>Again, do you believe religious organizations therefore to be
>in effect paranormal groups?

I think supernatural/paranormal claims are a only a very small
part of what they do, with a few exceptions (e.g., Zen Master
Rama).

<snip>

>>Clark:
>>>If your point, finally, is that paranormal organizations such as
>>>mainstream religious bodies have incomes that dwarf CSICOP's,
>>>then I guess I can't argue with that, and you've won the
>>>argument.

>>I don't think they need to enter the picture.

>Given the above, why not?

For two reasons: (1) I think religions have implicitly been out of
scope throughout this conversation, and (2) I think that my argument
succeeds even without them.

Have a Merry Christmas, Jerry.

>Jerry Clark

 -
Jim Lippard
lippard-skeptic@discord.org
http://www.discord.org/
GPG Key ID: 0xF8D42CFE









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   Dec > Dec 27

             Fred Crisman Key Man In JFK/UFO Conspiracy/Coverup

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 05:14:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:09:17 -0500
Subject: Fred Crisman Key Man In JFK/UFO Conspiracy/Coverup


Source: Conspiracy Planet

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=94&contentid=1033

Saturday, December 27, 2003


Fred Crisman:Key Man in JFK/UFO Conspiracy/Coverup

by Hal Mckenzie

The conspiracy to assassinate John F. Kennedy and the cover-up
of the presence of extraterrestrials on earth are the two
biggest of the government's "big lies" alleged by so-called
conspiracy buffs.

Assuming that a single covert bureaucracy would manage both
coverups, it is not surprising that the same people show up in
both conspiracies.

Kenn Thomas, author of 'Maury Island UFO: The Crisman
Conspiracy,' identifies one such figure as Fred Crisman, a man
with a complicated life story involving the UFO subculture, off-
beat domestic politics and the JFK assassination. Thomas spoke
about his book at the Crash Retrieval Conference in Las Vegas,
Nev., on Nov. 14-16. Thomas is also editor of Steamshovel Press
(www.steamshovelpress.com), a conspiracy-oriented magazine and
website.

Thomas recounted Crisman's central role in the Maury Island UFO
encounter of June 21, 1947, which involved the recovery of slag-
like material ejected from a crippled UFO off the coast of
Washington.

Crisman is also named in New Orleans District Attorney Jim
Garrison's 1968 investigation into the Kennedy assassination, in
which Garrison maintained that Crisman may have been an assassin
working on behalf of aerospace concerns to kill Kennedy.

In a well-known underground report called the Torbitt Document,
Crisman is named as one of three hoboes picked up in the
railyard behind the grassy knoll at Dealy Plaza, Thomas said.

Garrison also investigated Guy Banister, who was in charge of an
office in New Orleans that employed Lee Harvey Oswald in a
variety of capacities.

Banister was FBI Special Agent in Charge in the Pacific
northwest at the time of the Maury Island case.

The details of the Maury Island UFO case and Garrison's
complicated life and associations are so labyrinthine that one
reviewer said of Thomas' book that it is "information rich to
the point of saturation."

Thomas said details of the Maury Island case come from several
Freedom of Information Act requests filed by him and other
researchers, first hand accounts and various published accounts,
including a comic book rendition that he showed in slides during
his presentation. They also include such books as Kenneth
Arnold's The Coming of the Saucers and Edward Ruppelt's Project
Blue Book report.

The Maury Island story beings on June 21, 1947, three days
before what is widely regarded as the event that launched the
modern UFO era, pilot Kenneth Arnold's sightings of "flying
saucers" over Mt. Ranier.

A lumber salvager named Harold Dahl, his son and two
unidentified people on a salvage boat in the bay witnessed six
doughnut-shaped craft, one wobbling, the others surrounding it
and apparently trying to help it.

Dahl described the craft as 20 feet in diameter with five-foot
portholes in their sides. The craft in the middle wobbled and
dropped down about 700 feet before it stopped wobbling. Then one
of the circling saucers broke formation, flew down, touched it
and also became still.

The craft then spewed two different substances, white paper-like
metal that floated into the bay, and a black slag-like substance
that came down hot enough to raise steam. Pieces of that
material struck Dahl's son and killed his dog.

Dahl reported these events to Crisman, who is described as
Dahl's "superior." Crisman went to Maury Island to take a look,
and not only saw a great deal of both materials on the shore and
recovered some for himself, but also claimed to have had his own
sighting of a doughnut-shaped craft.

Crisman reported his experience to Ray Palmer, a publisher of
pulp magazines like Amazing Stories.

Palmer hired Kenneth Arnold to investigate the case, whose own
sightings three days later initiated a UFO wave, a part of which
was the story of a housewife who recovered in that area a 30-
inch saucer that she handed over to FBI officer Guy Banister.

Two Air Force investigators joined Arnold's investigation at
Maury island, Capt. Lee Davidson and 1st Lt. Frank Mercer Brown.
The two officers worked under Gen. Nathan Twining to collect
information on the UFO flap with particular attention to
retrieval stories, Thomas said.

Crisman turned samples of the debris to them, which was loaded
into their plane, a B-25 bomber. Shortly after taking off to
return to Wright-Patterson AFB, the plane crashed, killing the
two men. The counter-intelligence team sent out to clean up the
crash site supposedly failed to find any evidence of the Maury
Island debris.

However, Thomas said that one of the recently surfaced MJ12
documents suggests that Crisman turned samples of the debris
over to Clay Shaw, one of the three people that Garrison
attempted to indict in the alleged conspiracy to kill Kennedy.

Although Shaw was acquitted of the crime, his role as a CIA
agent is well-documented.

Crisman's life followed many strange twists and turns. According
to Thomas, "He had one foot in the intelligence world, the other
in the world of con-men and bums."

Crisman reportedly told the tale that during World War II he
fought a race of underground aliens called the Deros in caverns
in Burma. He was involved with the Universal Life Church, a
right-wing fringe group connected with the Minutemen armed
militia.

In 1968 he was an early "shock jock" along the lines of Rush
Limbaugh, holding forth in a radio talk show in Tacoma. He was
also involved in local politics, seeking to overthrow the city
management in Tacoma. In 1975, he died of kidney failure at the
age of 56.










   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 27

                               Alien Odds Cut

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:10:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:10:45 -0500
Subject: Alien Odds Cut




Source: William Hill [The British Bookmakers]

http://www.williamhillmedia.com/index_template.asp?file=2782

December 27, 2003

Alien Odds Cut

William Hill have cut their odds about official confirmation of
the current existence of intelligent extra terrestrial life
being forthcoming by the UK Prime Minister before the end of
2004 from 500/1 to 100/1.


[UFO UpDates thanks http://www.anomalist.com & Richard Hendricks
 for the lead]








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 27

              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Franz

From: Cap. Alejandro Franz <alfafox@prodigy.net.mx>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:08:59 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:26:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Franz


>From: Jaime Maussan <jaimemaussanmx@yahoo.com.mx>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 12:44:42 -0600 (CST)
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: Cap. Alejandro Franz <alfafox@prodigy.net.mx>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 05:45:18 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:21:46 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>>From: Captain Alejandro Franz <alfafox@Prodigy.net.mx>
>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:41:33 -0700
>>>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>>I can provide some information about this case, another one of
>>>>many J. Maussan hoaxes. The Aeromexico DC9 flight 129 from
>>>>Guadalajara to Mexico's City Intl. Airport that supposedly had a
>>>>collision with a UFO when approaching runway 05 right at
>>>>Mexico's Intl. Airport on july 1994.

>>>>I know personally the "eyewitness" Enrique Kolbeck, an Air
>>>>Traffic Controller, very close to Jaime Maussan because he is
>>>>the one who always has been invited to join the "team" of
>>>>"eyewitnesses" at all UFO conventions that Maussan has organized
>>>>since 1997.

><snip>

>Dear Friends:

>This 'case' wouldn't even be happening in the United States.....

>Let me explain myself.....
>Recently Captain Alejandro Franz Navarrete, has accused Captain
>Raymundo Cervantes Ruano, Controler Enrique Kolbeck and myself
>of being hoaxers and liars.

Everybody can see that's not true Maussan. You, as usually do,
are manipulating the information and here it shows. When did I
accuse Captain Raymundo Cervantes Ruano?

I said "another one of many J. Maussan hoaxes".

Here you manipulate the case. These attitudes promote skepticism
among those who seek clear and truthful answers.

You are an intelligent journalist, a prosperous producer, but
not an honest UFO researcher. We need facts.

>Why? Because we affirm a collision
>event happened -related to Flight 129, from Aeromexico, flying
>from Guadalajara to Mexico- and that the aircraft probably
>impacted an unknown aerial object the night of July 28, 1994.

Now you use the words "probably" and "unknown aerial object"
then you accept that 'probably' was not a fact. So my
_accusation_ is not to far from the truth.

>Franz Navarrete presents a series of questions and concludes
>that the event never happened.

That's not true. I conclude that there was a mechanical failure
on the DC 9 and according to the situation and coincidences
Ruano decided to declare an emergency. There was no UFO
involved. This case is incomplete.

>Furthermore he contends that
>because it 'never happened' the whole case should be considered
>a hoax.

A hoax is a tricky manipulation of the facts.

HOAX: Something intended to deceive; deliberate
      trickery intended to gain an advantage.

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=3Dhoax&search.x=3D7&search=
.y=3D13

If there are two eyewitnesses who say that there was no UFO
information and _no_ shaking at the moment the landing gear was
lowered then there was _no_impact_. That is not a UFO collision.
The facts are far from a UFO collision.

>When I said that this case wouldn't happen in the US it is
>because Captain Raymundo Cervantes Ruano is an active Pilot. He
>is an Instructor of Pilots.

Excuse me, he is not a pilot instructor anymore.

>He is also a member of the Board of
>Directors of the Union of Pilots here in Mexico. Capt. Ruano he
>was elected to this position by popular vote. BTW, recently he
>was an -Instructor- of Alejandro Franz Navarrete who is the
>report's principle critic.

Ruano could be my neighbor or my brother and that doesn't change
the way this case was handled. Capt. Ruano was an instructor, he
did normal work when I had my periodic training and he did that
with many pilots as an instructor is supposed to do. And what
the hell has that to do with this case? This is not a circus
were you can show up and think we all are stupid.

The question is... why connect an airplane failure to a UFO
collision?

>Another individual reporting in this case is Enrique Kolbeck.

Kolbeck is a good reporter but he was not controlling Ruano's
flight 129 when the events occurred. He was not an eyewitness,
he is merely an informant.

That is a false testimonial.

>Mr. Kolbeck is an air traffic controller with more than 25 years
>of experience in the field, most of that time working in the
>Control Tower at Mexico City's international airport. He is also
>a member of the Board of Directors of the Union of controllers,
>also elected by popular vote.

Maybe Kolbeck's popularity is at a high, but that's not enough
for a UFO case because we need facts, not fabrication.

>Myself, Jaime Maussan, I have been working as an Investigative
>Reporter for 33 years on Mexican television. I have produced and
>presented around five-hundred, one hour documentaries. Three
>times I have received the National Award for Journalism. I was
>also Anchorman and Director of '60 Minutes' for Mexican TV. I
>have worked as a journalist on Mexican television for 17 years.

I recognize you as a great journalist but that doesn't give you
the right to lie and create disinformation on UFO cases.

>I have also received a special Award on Capitol Hill (Room Mike
>Mansfield ) on March 12th 1982. That same day Ted Turner was
>also honored with a special award.  I was also recognized at the
>United Nations where I received an award: 'Global 500' for
>special merits in the defense of the Environment. I received the
>award from the hands of Mostafa Tolba, director of PNUMA on June
>5 1990. I could go on, but this is enough.

This is a UFO List, not a showroom.

>In the US you would not question people with that background.

I would question anybody, including my parents if they don't
tell the truth.

>But now you are ready to believe someone you don't know, just
>because he questions but does not -demonstrate- what he affirms.

Remember Maussan, I have the _terrestrial_ human made material
used to cover the inside of the _link_ related to Jonathan,
John, Bradley, Rutter, Reed or whatever his name is. That's
another hoax you used, deliberately, knowing it was a fraud.

Visit: Alcione Unveils A Hoax

http://www.alcione.org/0reedfke.html

Do you know why Dan Aria and Reed closed their web pages located
at _aliendestiny.com_ and _linkodisey.com_?

>Lets go to the facts.

>On the night of July 28 1994, we received many phone calls
>reporting a sighting in the area of the World Trade Center.
>Because I know Enrique Kolbeck since childhood, I asked the Sky
>Watchers, (a local group) to report the UFO/OVNI to Centro
>Mexico (Control Room). I was at home around 10 pm when Enrique
>Kolbeck called me. He was very nervous as he told me "...I
>almost sh*t in my pants... Flight 129 hit something around the
>World Trade Center, we had an emergency landing and the captain
>wants to speak to you".

>Captain Cervantes Ruano, (who I didn't know,) also called me.
>He, like Enrique Kolbeck was also very nervous. He asked me if
>it was true that we had reports of a sighting. He said that he
>wanted to meet me as soon as possible. The Next day he told me
>the whole story...

>"...when we were about to land I dropped the landing gear and I
>felt a direct hit under the plane.

There was a 'loud noise' but not a "hit". There are two
eyewitnesses. Capt. Alejandro Sotura and Capt. Ramon Ruiz Gomez
- period.

>I thought I had hit a
>Helicopter or an small plane, then I asked for an emergency
>landing...."

>"....we had to circle the airport twice. I wanted someone to get
>a look at the landing gear so I could know if this was
>intact.... they gave me the go ahead, and we landed safely. The
>airplane was taken to the Hangar where the mechanics checked it
>out and told me that the Hydraulic line was cut... they couldn't
>explain what happened to the airplane".

So here we have another case or what? It was supposed to be a
broken strut or not? An oleo as Don Eldgers asserted. Get clear
Maussan, this is your opportunity to gain credibility.

>Along-side the Co Pilot Enrique Gomez, Captain Alejandro Soturo

The correct name is Alejandro Luna Sotura. He is now Security
Chief for Aeromexico, I interviewed him. You may ask him about
the _loud_noise_ - _no_ hit, _no_ trembling, _no_ shaking,
_no_ sense, _no_ impact.

>a flight instructor was also in the cockpit.

Capt. Alejandro Luna Sotura was sitting as an 'extra crew
member' with a 'contract permit' that allows pilots to fly
wearing the uniform inside the cockpit on any of Aeromexico's
flights. That's in our union's agreement which permits us to fly
any of the company routes.

>He congratulated
>Capt. Cervantes Ruano for the action. The plane was a DC 32,
>classification: XA-JEB.

I congratulate him too, I would take the same action under that
similar and strange condition. Any pilot who experience a
_loud_noise_ lowering the landing gear at night, without any
warning, should take precautionary measures, such as declaring
an emergency. That is a security procedure that any pilot is
allowed to perform.

>In the Control room, directly controlling the plane was Giovanni
>Javier Murga Qero. He was helped by controller Alejandro del
>Valle _after_ the event occurred.

You said that Enrique Kolbeck was the one who was controlling
and called Ruano when the supposed collision happened. And
that is not true.

That is stated in your plain conversation with Errol and
Don Ledger on Strange Days... Indeed and you can hear
yourself saying that at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/sdiarchive/sdi256.ra

>A week later on August 8,1994 at 11:30 in the morning, Flight
>304 flying in from Acapulco to Mexico city had a very close
>encounter with a big shiny silver disc. The pilots Francisco
>Mezquita and Carlos Corso thought _they_ were going to have a
>collision.

This is another of your hoaxes. Capt. Corzo was the _Co-Pilot_
and you produced a video were Corzo appears in it as a Captain
with _four_ bars on his shoulders, sitting on the left side, and
changing the real _facts_ and that is a _fraud_ - a _hoax_.

The video was recorded inside a DC-9 simulator - the property of
Aeromexico, and the simulation or re-enactment was performed
differently from the way it happened in the real situation.

That is a _hoax_.

That kind of material is what makes people stop believing in
honest investigators.

>They were both very nervous and mad. They also contacted me to
>find out what has happening around the airport. Other cases were
>reported.

I had an interview with Capt. Mezquita, he told me he was
searching in his manual case (down and left, of the _front
airplane's_ main window, and in that moment he heard Capt.
Corzo's scream, then he turned his face toward him and saw
Corzo's reaction....Capt. Mezquita _never_ saw _anything_ that's
_all_ that Capt. Mezquita told me. Period.

>Over the weeks that ensued on at least four occasions
>different airplanes aborted their landings because they saw
>unidentified objects around/near the airport.

>Investigator Carlos Alberto Guzman Rojas and Alfonso Salazar in
>the book: Los Ovnis y la Aviacion Mexicana write... Pp172 and
>173.....

Are you talking seriously? You refer to a book edited last year?

Carlos Guzman is the director of CIFEEEAC (Centro Investigador
de Fenomenos Extraterrestres, Espaciales y Extraordinarios, A.C.)
Carlos A. Guzman Rojas is representative of MUFON in Mexico
and he wrote a book in 1998 as co-author the book "EL OVNI DE
LAS LOMAS" =BFVerdad o Mentira? (The MExico City UFO Video
- True or lie?)

Carlos Alberto Guzman Rojas is the Joint Director of ALCIONE.ORG
where I am the founder and director and where this and more hoaxes
are exposed.

You can call or write Carlos Guzman and ask about that.

See carlos Guzman Rojas Bio:

http://www.alcione.org/carlosg.html

>(please John translate, I want to write exactly what is written
>in the book)

>[***Note to UpDates List readers: I have volunteered my services
>as a translator to Jaime and Enrique Kolbeck should they require
>it. Any errors in translation are mine alone and I assume full
>responsibility. I will leave a copy of the original Spanish
>intact for List members who are able to read it. --John Velez]

Then this will become a real mess, so I will standby until these
two gentlemen can speak for themselves. I will answer this post
completely but not another translated by John.

>The passengers deplaned into the terminal area and immediately
>afterwards the airplane was taken to the hanger. Inspector
>Rodriguez (Martinez) confirmed that he observed that the
>hydraulic line on the right-side landing gear had been cut as if
>it had been done with a razor.

3000 PSI of hydraulic pressure can make numerous kinds of
ruptures and when a line gives up there is a loud _banging_noise_.

<snip>

>In the same book Pp 174, the authors confirm also the events of
>flight 304.

So you refer to a book to claim this 'UFO collision case' is true?

Define yourself Maussan, are you a journalist or what?

>Franz  Navarrete accused Enrique Kolbeck through ACTAM (an air
>traffic controllers association) of giving false testimony about
>this case. He posed at that time the same questions that he has
>presented to UFO Updates. The Air Traffic Controller Angel
>Iturbe Estrop, former air traffic controller at Culiacan Airport
>responds to Franz Navarrete with the following:

That's not true Maussan, and you are talking in Kolbeck's name.
Can't he come in here? Do you always need helpers? Let Kolbeck
talk.

>(Again John I ask you to translate this I want to be factual).

Good job John! Your credits are high now. You are a trigger to
the new age ufology.

I'll cut all the stuff below because Maussan, as always, tries
to distract attention from the facts and reality.

I will stay posting everything about UFO cases not personal
posts belonging to another places and persons, that's junk.

About Angel Iturbe Estrop I only say that he was exposed as an
ignorant in a UFO List from Spain which name was _UFO-Es_  and I
kept _all_ those messages, that at the right time and place I'll
have the opportunity to show these posts that Maussan uses, as a
last resort to discredit me.

There are 3 different posts were Angel Iturbe walked away and
apologised to all. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

John Velez, if you please, accept that I forward those to you
and verify what the real truth is. I can send them to you until
the 29th of December because I am now in Tijuana and the
referred posts are at home in Puebla, Mexico.

I'll appreciate it if you can tell all members what your opinion
is about those posts of Angel Iturbe. Thank you in advance.

<snip>

>Also to investigate other cases. I am sorry, but I am very tired
>of being attacked by "investigadores de escritorio". (Armchair
>investigators)

I am tired, very tired of field investigators who don't tell the
truth and use the UFO field only to make money.

>I am and have been an investigator for many years.

At the end of this message you say you are a simple journalist,
can't you see how inconsistent you are?

>When I express an opinion it is because I have
>investigated the facts. It's so easy to talk ...it's so easy to
>attack.

It's so easy to not be truthful but the truth will come soon.

You just talked and talked about me, trying to discredit my
background, you are not talking _straight_ about the _facts_.

Do you know NICAR? (National Institute for Computer Assisted
Reporting)

http://www.nicar.org

>Many of the questions posed by Franz Navarrete couldn't being
>answered because the Air Company, Aeromexico, will not allow
>the information to come out...to be made public. Do you know any
>company in the world that would let a journalist conduct an
>investigation around a security issue?  None.

There was no "security" issue, there was a broken hydraulic line
in the main gear or a broken strut, or a "bungee switch"... well
I don't know, you've given so many reasons that I can't tell but
there was a mechanical failure. The security procedure that was
taken bym Cap. Ruano was correct but has nothing to do with
UFOs. You do not have enough material to prove it and I have two
eyewitness pilots who are essentially important.

>And Franz Navarrete
>as he poses his questions knows and depends on that.

That's not true. There is a law of free information in Mexico
where you can get _any_ information you want. If Capt. Ruano was
involved in an incident like the alleged 'UFO collision', he
should ask for copies of _all_ the documents involved. He, as a
commander, when any official documents are delivered, must ask
for them. That's the only way a pilot can assure his background
and he knows that - ask him or the authorities.

When you get those documents we'll be waiting for them.

>He has also said that I mentioned that people from NASA or the
>FAA came to investigate this event....? Please, first off, the Mexican
>governemt wouldn't allow that.

The same way, maybe, Mexican government allowed Jonathan
Reed/Rutter to be in mexican territory without a passport or any
documents. He alleged he had lost when he was threatened by and
hidden from 'USA special agents'.

How did you deal with that Maussan?

>How can he say such a lie and get

John Velez, take note, he called me a liar, we are even. uh?

Anyway I have a group of lawyers behind me, so don't worry.

>away with it. Probably because you don=B4t know much about this man.

You'll know about me Maussan. I know how you use your power to
discredit people. I have information and audio tapes about how
you are using the media at this very moment to discredit me. I'm
not afraid. I am a very well centered person who is accustomed
to dealing with extreme situations - and this isn't the first
one.

There is no small enemy.

>Come to Mexico, investigate _him_. Asks the pilots what they think
>of him... ask the air traffic controllers what is their opinion about
>this man.

Yes, visit Mexico! Great country! Ask about me! I'm great!

I propose a deal Maussan. If I demonstrate that you did say that
people from NASA or the FAA came to investigate this case and
took the damaged parts to the U.S.A., you'll leave the UFO arena
forever? If I don't demonstrate it I'll quit everything I have
to do with UFOs and give away ALCIONE.ORG to anybody... are you
in?

That will give you some time. I have to look for that video.

>In his Curriculum Vitae he claims to be Pilot, Controller,
>Meteorologist, UFO investigator, Contactee, Astro-archeologist,
>parapsychologist, hypnotist, Webmaster and Director of SEIP
>Sociedad Espa=F1ola de Investigaciones Parapsicologicas,
>Asociacion Civil.

You took that information from a post by Angel Iturbe in 2001
and that information is true but not the same as of the one I
have now at:

http://www.alcione.org/alexcred.htm

Please visit the following site:

Aeromexico's Airplane Collides With A UFO In 1994! True Or
False?

http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/OVNI94/OVNI94_engx.html

>I am a simple journalist, respected by the people of Mexico and
>Latin America.

That's egotism.

You are not what you think you are, ask your 'vigilantes' -
_sky_watchers_ to go out and ask people in the streets, make
a poll but do it honestly, by that you'll find out who you
really are and what people think about you.

You could be a great investigator, you are plenty of skill, but
sadly you lost the floor long time ago (1991).

>You choose who to believe.

I don't believe you.


Best regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director@alcione.org
www.alcione.org
non-profit







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 27

              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Franz

From: Cap. Alejandro Franz <alfafox@prodigy.net.mx>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:13:02 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:41:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Franz


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 22:47:03 -0500
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: Cap. Alejandro Franz <alfafox@prodigy.net.mx>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 05:45:18 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:21:46 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>>From: Captain Alejandro Franz <alfafox@Prodigy.net.mx>
>>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>>>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:41:33 -0700
>>>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>>I can provide some information about this case, another one of
>>>>many J. Maussan hoaxes. The Aeromexico DC9 flight 129 from
>>>>Guadalajara to Mexico's City Intl. Airport that supposedly had a
>>>>collision with a UFO when approaching runway 05 right at
>>>>Mexico's Intl. Airport on july 1994.

>>>>I know personally the "eyewitness" Enrique Kolbeck, an Air
>>>>Traffic Controller, very close to Jaime Maussan because he is
>>>>the one who always has been invited to join the "team" of
>>>>"eyewitnesses" at all UFO conventions that Maussan has organized
>>>>since 1997.

<snip>

>Hello Capt. Franz, All,

Hello John and All,

>I have been communicating with Jaime Maussan and Enrique Kolbeck
>because I believe that in all fairness, they ought to know that
>they are being called liars and (worse) intentional hoaxers in
>this thread. It is important to give people on both sides of any
>argument a chance to tell their side of the story.

I thought Maussan and Kolbeck were already on the UFO UpDates
List as Maussan is Mexico's "prominent investigator" and Kolbeck
is the eyewitness and the 'connection' between Air Traffic
Controllers and this unique Mexican UFO collision case.

If there is no _proof_ or material at all. What we have here is
normally called a "hoax".

You said in your UFO UpDates post at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/dec/m11-015.shtml


"You're welcome. I hope you can at least appreciate where I'm
coming from though. This airline collision case is one I plan to
follow-up regardless of Maussan's reputation. We have a pilot
who is willing to testify, an air traffic controller, and a
damaged commercial jet. I don't care how flakey Maussan may be,
if you put him aside and just look at the witnesses reporting
this incident, you have something solid and meaty to sink your
ufological teeth into. There has to be a paper-trail ten miles
long stemming from this incident. I want to make sure that
somebody looks into this who can actually do something with the
material."


I am here. That "somebody" is me. And you don't show any respect
about Maussan's reputation as you don't care how flaky he may
be. How you become now his guardian angel? Are you sure you know
what you want or are looking for? Maybe you need some self-
esteem and you couldn't find it.

Please John, stay out of this case, enjoy, seat back and relax.

>But especially if the indictment manifests itself as an accusation
>of intentional deception.

Who cares about accusations? That's your point of view but it's
not true.

>You make very strong charges ('liar' and 'hoaxer') that 'could be'
>used by Maussan and Kolbeck to initiate litigation against you if
>they choose to.

I don't know who you think I am. I don't care about litigation
or lawyers. I have my own lawyers. I know what I am doing, so,
if you please, step out. Thank you.

I think maybe you have some memory problems.

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:41:33 -0700 in UFO Updates I wrote:


"I want you to know that my wife and I had a close encounter in
1974 on a night car trip and both of us saw aliens and 5 to 6
hours of time are missing. I want to clarify this before you get
the wrong picture of me regarding my intentions about the work I
have done about multiple hoaxes related to J. Maussan. I can't
keep quiet anymore and I know what will come ahead,  my truth is
before those who use the UFO arena to make money and circus
denigrating the tedious and hard work of many honest and serious
investigators."


As far as I understand I clearly wrote:

"I can't keep quiet anymore and I know what will come ahead"

By that you don't need too show up. I stand by what I've already
accepted and still do. Try to read more carefully the content of
my messages.

You wrote:

>Being a full or part-time 'hoax exposer' or would-be
>'professional debunker' is nothing to brag about as far I'm
>concerned.

I am not a "hoax exposer", nor a "professional debunker". You
are denigrating my reputation without knowing who I really am, or
how honest and explicit my work on this is.

Try to think first and act later.

>The fact that you have exposed 'other hoaxes' as you say
>_lessens_ your credibility and casts doubt on your intellectual
>honesty. Not the other way around.

John, your intellectual honesty is not in doubt. The other way
around maybe.

>CSICOP, the grandaddy of all 'debunking' groups
>epitomizes bias and closed- mindedness. Debunking, when it is an
>'objective', is nothing more than an expression of
>institutionalized scientific dogma and prejudice. The fact that
>you have exposed 'other hoaxes' as you say _lessens_ your
>credibility and casts doubt on your intellectual honesty. Not
>the other way around.

So, you and your intellectual honesty have the right to name
Steven Greer and Peter Gersten fakers and posers as you have
done in the past?

Doesn't a fake mean the same as fraudulent or having a
misleading appearance?

HOAX

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/hoax

Definition: [n] something intended to deceive;
deliberate trickery intended to gain an advantage
[v] subject to a palyful hoax or joke

FAKE

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/fake

Definition: [n] something that is a counterfeit;
not what it seems to be
[n] a person who makes deceitful pretenses
[adj] fraudulent; having a misleading appearance

>Jaime Maussan and Enrique Kolbeck are in the process of
>subscribing to this List so that they can post responses
>directly to your _slanderous_ and up until now, one-sided,
>accusations.

I think they can post responses directly to the List for members
who would like to ask questions that will reveal a lot of
interesting material.

The one who is posting _slanderous_ and one-sided accusations
is precisely you.

>Jaime and Enrique can speak for themselves.

Your intellectual honesty is outrageous.

>I choose not to play the role of 'monkey-in-the-middle' or to
>presume to 'represent' Jaime or Enrique.

Good! You might misinterpret something or wrongly attribute a
quote.

>I have a pre-existing relationship to both gentlemen so
>I will simply excuse myself from the proceedings.

I don't mix relationship with prestige., I am an honest person
and will tell the same truth as long as I can.

>I think the rest of us would be wise to just sit back and allow
>the principles in this debate (Maussan, Kolbeck and Franz) to
>hash things out among themselves.

Don't forget to invite Capt. Ruano.

>Such a discussion is always revealing of both sides.

>I'm interested to see not only 'what'
>the upcoming discussion reveals about this case, but also about
>'whom.'

You'll see, you're in, stay tuned and observe.


Best regards,

Cap. Alejandro Franz
director@alcione.org
www.alcione.org
non-profit







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 27

                  Croatian TV Documentary 'The Sky Of UFOs'

From: Giuliano Marinkovicc <giuliano.marinkovic@zg.htnet.hr>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:14:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:41:21 -0500
Subject: Croatian TV Documentary 'The Sky Of UFOs'


Dear Colleagues,

Croatian National Television will air a new TV documentary film
about UFOs. The name of the film is 'The Sky Of UFOs'.

Again, I was personaly involved in the creation of the whole
piece.

Documentary will be aired in the following dates:

When: Friday, 02nd of January 2004., 21:45 h
Where: HTV 1 (Croatian National Television)
What: The Sky Of UFOs, TV documentary (54'31"), PREMIERE

When: Wendsday, 07th of January 2004., 23:15 h
Where: HTV 1 (Croatian National Television)
What: The Sky Of UFOs, TV documentary (54'31"), RE-RUN

CONTENTS:

A) INTERNATIONAOL UFOLOGY

1. Astroarcheology and Paleo-contacts
2. Ufology of the 19th Century
3. Foo Fighters and Ghost Rockets, WWII
4. The modern UFO wave from 1947.
5. PROJECTS SING, GRUDGE I BLUE BOOK, 1948-1969
6. Chilean CEFAA comission, 1997

7. The review of UFO physical evidence from the International
   panel of scientist and astronomer Peter Sturrock, Standford
   University, 1998; Sturrock's Workshop
8. French UFO study - COMETA REPORT, 1999
9. The Disclosure Project - Washington D.C., National Press
   Club, 2001.
10. The ETH development inside the military domain, 1948-1999
11. Ufology today


The Croatian Ufology:

1. INCIDENT ISLAND PAG 1967. I 1997. / broadcast of the police
radio communications during the UFO incident

2. Air incident of the pilot Marjan Maricc

3. PAN ADRIA INCIDENT and military intervention in the air in
the area of the former Yugoslavia during UFO incidents


Author and screenplay: Kressimir Missak
Archive, video and audio material: Giuliano Marinkovicc
Consultants: dr.sci Stjepan Gjurinek, Giuliano Marinkovicc, ing.
Goran Ergovicc
Length: 54 minutes


Report sent by:

Giuliano Marinkovicc
Author, screenplay writer and TV director of the TV documentary
series 'The Croatian X Files'
Autor of the radio program UFO_NAUTICA
Radio Student (Zagreb, Croatia), Tuesday at 22:00
e-mail: giuliano.marinkovic@zg.htnet.hr
        9a4ag@clarc.org
gsm: +385-98-900-2649
ICQ UIN: #66584465
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ageti

Snail mail address:

Giuliano Marinkovicc
Poste-Restante
10000 Zagreb
Croatia, Europe








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   Dec > Dec 28

                  Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:19:07 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:25:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III - Shough


>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:44:26 -0400
>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>>From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 17:34:04 -0000
>>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>>>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <v.s.o@prodigy.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:52:41 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Trindade Material - Part III

>><snip>

>>>>Was this conversation conducted in Portuguese or English? If
>>>>the former then who translated this reply?

>>>If anyone could like to have a cassette copy of the
interview,
>>>send me a Money Order for U.S. $10 to cover cost and mail.

>>While everyone's waiting for the post offices to reopen for
>>stamps and money orders, would it be possible to answer the
>>question gratis - it being the season of good will and all
;-)?

>Of course, it being the season of good will, all I ask is to
>cover the cost.

>The conversation was in Portuguese and in English. Barauna do
>not speak English and Dr. Hynek do not speak Portuguese. I can
>understand Portuguese, actually my Symposium presentation was in
>Spanish.

>At the table was an official translator accompanying Dr. Hynek.
>Also, Irene Granchi, who knew English, did some translation in
>both languages. This was done during a dinner in the hotel's
>restaurant and you can hear noise in the background, this is
>why I called it an "informal interview". I'm hoping this tape
>will be of help.

Thankyou Virgilio. I'll mail you next week. Meanwhile thanks for
the explanation.


MS








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   Dec > Dec 28

              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:19:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:41:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Velez


>From: Cap. Alejandro Franz <alfafox@prodigy.net.mx>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:13:02 -0600
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 22:47:03 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>>>From: Cap. Alejandro Franz <alfafox@prodigy.net.mx>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 05:45:18 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

<snip>

>>Hello Capt. Franz, All,

>Hello John and All,

>>I have been communicating with Jaime Maussan and Enrique Kolbeck
>>because I believe that in all fairness, they ought to know that
>>they are being called liars and (worse) intentional hoaxers in
>>this thread. It is important to give people on both sides of any
>>argument a chance to tell their side of the story.

>I thought Maussan and Kolbeck were already on the UFO UpDates
>List as Maussan is Mexico's "prominent investigator" and Kolbeck
>is the eyewitness and the 'connection' between Air Traffic
>Controllers and this unique Mexican UFO collision case.

>If there is no _proof_ or material at all. What we have here is
>normally called a "hoax".

>You said in your UFO UpDates post at:

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/dec/m11-015.shtml

>"You're welcome. I hope you can at least appreciate where I'm
>coming from though. This airline collision case is one I plan to
>follow-up regardless of Maussan's reputation. We have a pilot
>who is willing to testify, an air traffic controller, and a
>damaged commercial jet. I don't care how flakey Maussan may be,
>if you put him aside and just look at the witnesses reporting
>this incident, you have something solid and meaty to sink your
>ufological teeth into. There has to be a paper-trail ten miles
>long stemming from this incident. I want to make sure that
>somebody looks into this who can actually do something with the
>material."

>I am here. That "somebody" is me. And you don't show any respect
>about Maussan's reputation as you don't care how flaky he may
>be. How you become now his guardian angel? Are you sure you know
>what you want or are looking for? Maybe you need some self-
>esteem and you couldn't find it.

Hello All, and Mr. Franz - who is laboring under the delusion
that it is okay for him to tell others what to do,

Franz, you had the _unmitigated_ cohones to write the following:

>Please John, stay out of this case, enjoy, seat back and relax.

That was some kind of 'Mexican joke' right?

You have revealed much about yourself (as a man/your character)
here just in the way you have chosen to speak to me. Just listen
to yourself and then tell me if all of this doesn't sound like
the bleating of a nasty and defensive person.

Te atreves escribir: (You dare to write:)

>Are you sure you know what you want or are looking for?

>Maybe you need some self-esteem and you couldn't find it.

>Please John, stay out of this case, enjoy, seat back and relax.

>I know what I am doing, so, if you please, step out.

>I think maybe you have some memory problems.

>Try to think first and act later.

>John, your intellectual honesty is not in doubt. The other way
>around maybe.

Yours? ;)

>The one who is posting _slanderous_ and one-sided accusations
>is precisely you.

>Your intellectual honesty is outrageous.

The preceding set of statements is nothing more than a string of
insults. (The best 'defence' is a good 'offense.') Is this how
you relate to/talk to everybody?

Mr. Franz, I'm not going to dignify any future communication
from you with a response. You have simply lost me and you
certainly do not merit my time or consideration. You have
revealed much about yourself. I don't much care for what I see
so far. I'm not impressed.

Just for the record; next time you get an itch to tell me what I
can do (or not) - please feel free to contact me privately and
I'll be most happy to tell you precisely what you can do with
your 'suggestions.'

Unbelievable.

Que cohones!


John Velez
Speaking strictly for myself












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   Dec > Dec 28

                Mason County Seeks Permanent Name For Bridge

From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman@maine.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:44:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:44:30 -0500
Subject: Mason County Seeks Permanent Name For Bridge


Source: Point Pleasant Daily Register - West Virginia

http://www.mydailyregister.com/NEWS/index.cfm#1484

Friday, December 26, 2003

County seeks permanent name for bridge

HENDERSON
By Kevin Kelly

HENDERSON -- A request by the Mason County Commission to place
signs at both ends of the Silver Memorial Bridge identifying it
as such is "reasonable", the West Virginia Department of
Transportation said.

But the county will have to ask one of the several members of
the House of Delegates representing Mason to introduce a
resolution and make the name permanent.

The commission was informed by Transportation Secretary Fred
VanKirk that signs designating the span as the Silver Memorial
Bridge will be installed. VanKirk noted in a letter to County
Administrator John Gerlach that the bridge had been
"unofficially" known as the Silver Memorial Bridge for many
years, "and this request is reasonable."

The span was opened in 1969, less than two years after the
collapse of the nearly 40-year-old Silver Bridge that previously
linked downtown Point Pleasant with Kanauga, Ohio, and State
Route 7.

VanKirk advised the commission ask for a legislative resolution
because it had been state government practice in the last
several years to seek approval of a joint resolution
establishing the name of a bridge or section of roadway.

"Erection of a sign for a bridge or roadway named in any other
manner would not have the same legal standing as a legislative
action, and the signing could be removed at the will of anyone
in the Division of Highways with the authority to do so,"
VanKirk said.

"For this reason, we recommend that you request a delegate in
your area to introduce a resolution in the next legislative
session," he added. "This would insure that the name of the
bridge would be permanent."

The commission made the request after the completion of a
painting project on the span. The project was finished in
October, followed by the removal of construction barriers and a
repaving of approaches to the bridge on U.S. Route 35.

The commission indicated it would request introduction of a
resolution from one of the delegates.

====

The Silver Bridge collapsed on December 15, 1967, and has been linked by
many to the sightings of Mothman. For more details see:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1931044341/cryptozoologi-20







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   Dec > Dec 28

                Re: Linguist Author Charles Berlitz 90 Dies -

From: Bruno Mancusi <swissufo@swissufo.ch>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 10:11:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:46:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Linguist Author Charles Berlitz 90 Dies -


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@rogers.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 08:59:37 -0400
>Subject: Re: Linguist Author Charles Berlitz 90 Dies

>From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman@maine.rr.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 20:47:56 -0500
>Subject: Linguist Author Charles Berlitz 90 Dies

>I knew him somewhat because of my work with Bill Moore on "The
>Roswell Incident". Charles did the great bulk of the writing but
>Bill and I did more than 90% of the research. Bill and Charles
>were listed as the co-authors.


Why were you listed only in the acknowledgments and not as
co-author? In the French edition ('Le myst=E8re de Roswell',
France-Empire, Paris 1981) you are not credited at all because
the publisher removed the acknowledgments pages (and the index
and bibliography as well)...!


Happy New Year to all!

Bruno









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   Dec > Dec 28

              Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 08:41:07 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:15:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03 - Myers


>From: Charlette LeFevre <clefevre@oz.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 20:58:13 -0800
>Subject: Re: Maussan Makes Prediction For 12-12-03

>Jaime Maussan does indeed have to answer to a major issues in
>his past before claiming to be journalisticly balanced and
>accurate or at least responsible before taken seriously in the
>U.S.

>It was the world's largest UFO hoaxer Reed who went on to Mexico
>and Japan after he milked the US market for all its worth.

>The Seattle Group proved definitively in April 2001 that Reed's
>story was a created among a small group of friends when we
>confirmed with their employer and room mates. We certainly
>checked and documented our facts before we posted even though we
>knew it would not be popular.

"Definitively"? Finding one piece of a much larger puzzle is a
far, far cry from definitively proving anything. Let's not
forget where the first and final investigation into the Reed UFO
Fraud took place:

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/reedufofraud.html

I was the first investigator to publicly challenge this case and
I worked on it from day one. My initial story ran in Michael
Lindemann's CNI News November/December 1998. Unlike those that
simply and meagerly interject themselves into and attempt to
take full credit for the case, I was the one that exposed this
hoax. Make no mistake about it.

>These soil samples were "secretly" obtained by his assistant
>Daniel Munoz who came to Washington and rather deceptively never
>notified any local investigators of his visit. Not that he was
>obligated but certainly a disregard for relevant information.
>Obviously, Jaime's interest is in ratings and only presenting
>one side when technically there should be no sides. Some would
>say there is no harm but this is not responsible for consumers
>and ultimately damages reputations.

Maussan should tread carefully when boasting about having
scientifically analyzed soil samples - you never know who else
might have access to the same soil samples and people that were
there when they were collected. Yes, that is indeed a hint.
Maussan and his associate Daniel Munoz both made claims to
having some spectacular analysis of soil from where 'Dr. Reed'
claimed his bunk alien encounter took place, yet when I asked
for proof it never materialized. In fact, when I asked for proof
and other information, simple information, I was stonewalled by
Munoz and never received any reply from Maussan.

This is not the first claim of scientific proof, firsthand
witnesses, and other evidence from Maussan and company, nor will
it be the last I suspect.

Again, there is much that the general public was not told
regarding 'Dr. Reed' and the so-called 'investigation' that took
place, which was a farce from start to finish and so full of
holes that it is absolutely astonishing that anyone took the
case seriously to begin with.

All parties involved in the Reed UFO Fraud were directly and
publicly challenged to come forward and explain themseleves. Of
course, they dodged any direct debate and were probably hoping
for it all to just go away. I don't think anyone will be
forgetting that hoax for a long time and no one should.

>>Royce was able to prove that Morton was full of 'it' in an open
>>court of law and in the end, he won the case. But... Morton was
>>able to initiate litigation against Royce because Royce was
>>calling him a "liar and a hoaxer" in public. (The UFO Watchdog
>>website.)

>Poor example to use Royce as an example of "proving" hoaxers. I
>think even Royce has to admit he gets his information primarily
>second hand.

Second hand? Hardly. I interview first-hand witnesses and gather
facts, unlike some who pretend to do the same (see below). I
don't do the second-hand shuffle or half-ass an investigation
like some people and then attempt to take credit for the entire
case.

>Royce never "proved" that Sean Morton was improperly stating his
>background or fabricating. Rather Royce only "won" the case
>because of filing deadlines.

LeFevre's foolish allegation that I won the case on some filing
deadline or other technical aspect is a blatant lie. LeFevre is
not presenting the facts here and instead turns to innuendo and
conjecture for what actually took place.

Morton's case was tossed out of court because he couldn't prove
his claims - period. I thought I'd heard every excuse for Morton
losing in court... guess not. Morton was given a fair and open
opportunity to provide proof of his claims in a court of law, an
opportunity he created by filing his bunk lawsuit. Indeed, let's
not forget who initiated the lawsuit and lost.

Here's the court case number should anyone wish to look it up:
YC045367.

The suit was filed and dismissed in Los Angeles Superior Court
(www.lasuperiorcourt.org). Anyone can obtain the documents to
this case by contacting the courts, something LeFevre obviously
failed to do before making her baseless and completely
uninformed proclamation.

Had LeFevre actually stopped running and took the time to look
up the case before she tripped over her own two feet, maybe she
would have not spoken out of pure ignorance. Perhaps next time
LeFevre will dazzle us all with some factual research rather
than engaging in gossip and allusion, and relying on second-hand
information, of which she likes to accuse others of.

This case came down to a simplistic concept that some people
still don't get - providing proof of your claims. It is that
rudimentary, really. If you say you have 'A' and show up in
court with 'X', then that isn't showing up with 'A'...get it?

For those interested in reading what brought Morton to claim
that he "suffered" damages and humiliation to the tune of one-
million dollars, you can see it here:

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/mortonfiles.html

>(Interesting you only hear of the
>case from Royce which of course only sheds himself in a good
>light and no statements from Morton). Hypocritical in reporting
>both sides wouldn't you say?

Well, what kept Morton from stepping up to the plate and
publicly commenting on the case or my website? What kept him
from coming forward and proving his claims over three years ago?
Why did he refuse to respond to my inquiries for comment? Why
did he choose to ignore the standing invitation posted on my
website for three years for him to respond? Why didn't he post
a response on his website? Why didn't he take up the offer from
Jeff Rense to appear on his radio program so Morton could tell
his side of the tale?

Why did he dodge the question of the lawsuit on radio programs?
Why did he ignore my last request for comment after he lost his
lawsuit?

Here's why:

His story came out in court and it was clear that he was unable
to prove any of his claims. Morton actually went so far as to
claim that I fabricated a biography about him that he had
authored! What happened to all the documentation his webmaster
claimed to have had? What happened to all his evidence? None of
this alleged 'evidence' ever made it into court.

No, instead of proving his claims Morton could only call my
website 'ufo watchpig' and make shameless claims that I was
"attacking" him. Morton has had ample opportunity on public
radio to make his case and he had an opportunity to prove his
claims with clear and convincing evidence in court. Instead, he
went on a fishing trip of a lawsuit hoping I'd pack up and run.

Since LeFevre appears to know everything about the court case,
then she should have no problem at all demonstrating to everyone
on the List exactly where a filing deadline was the sole factor
in Morton losing his lawsuit.

Surely LeFevre researched the court records of the case
thoroughly, as would any competent investigator or researcher
would do. Didn't she? Obviously not.

The court's extensive ruling on this case clearly states that
Morton could not provide a single shred of evidence to back his
claims. I could and did. This is why I won the lawsuit.
LeFevre can't even acknowledge the facts of this matter let
alone investigate them. Yet she wants to accuse others of not
presenting both sides of the story? That's hypocritical,
completely dishonest, and abhorrently arrogant.

>No, I'll take issue with both Maussan and Royce and call them
>on the floor as both examples of tabloid journalism.

So it's okay when I expose a hoax or fraud LeFevre doesn't like
(i.e.: The Reed UFO Hoax, The Brazilian Abduction), but it isn't
okay when I expose one she likes regardless of the facts? So
when I hit a nerve with someone or a case LeFevre likes, she
just writes it off and attempts to discredit me by labeling me a
tabloid journalist? Now that's just funny and sad at the same
time. LeFevre is clearly not interested in facts and it is
quite obvious she has some other agenda here.

Someone should tell LeFevre that cutting yourself and pointing a
bloody finger at someone else isn't really an admirable trait at
all. I'm not sure what sort of warped, hyena obsession LeFevre
has with defending Morton, or with what I do, or the fact that I
clearly beat Morton in court. Is it because I told her that I
would have nothing to do with her conferences becuase I felt
there was a credibility issue? Is it because I turned down
LeFevre's numerous invitations to come and speak about the Reed
UFO Fraud after I exposed it? Is it because I happened to blow
the lid off a case that was sitting right in her own backyard?

Hard to say and I could care less. I won't waste a moment more
of my time with someone who can only cast baseless accusations
and UFO groupie worship, instead of articulating a position with
factual evidence. Of course, I should expect more of the same
rhetoric from LeFevre to appear on the List, so I guess I'll
just wait and see what other nonsense she tries to insinuate
into this thread.

I won't be responding to anymore of this nonsense having to do
with Morton's loss in court, LeFevre's cult flavored zealous
attempts at worship, or her blatant disregard for facts. And we
all wonder why this field has a credibility problem...


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM








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                Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:37:58 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 10:19:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Rudiak


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 15:39:39 -0700
>Subject: Re: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? -

>From: James J. Lippard <lippard-skeptic@discord.org>
> To: skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu
>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:31:03 -0700
>Subj: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 06:29:05 -0600
>>Subject: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?



>I think the primary motivation of CSICOP, or at least CSICOP
>supporters, is to promote critical thinking and skepticism, and
>to prevent people from being taken in by fraud and falling into
>error (specifically Type I error--believing falsehoods on the
>basis of weak evidence). These should be laudable goals in
>anyone's book.

Before this thread got hijacked and taken off on a pointless
tangent about who makes more money from the "paranormal," it was
about CSICOP, through the Skeptical Inquirer, behaving in a most
unprofessional and unscientific manner. I pointed out they were
defending a fraud perpetrated by former Mogul scientist Charles
Moore, namely his bogus "calculation" supposedly taking his lost
Flight #4 "exactly" to the Foster Ranch and supposedly
explaining the Roswell crash.

If promoting critical/skeptical thinking and preventing people
from being taken in by fraud and error are laudable goals, then
why is CSICOP/S.I. defending this hoax?

I was the one who orginally exposed this on my website: (Brad
Sparks was also deeply involved in this, such as pointing out
Moore's numerous fraudulent rise rates.)

www.roswellproof.com/flight4_trajectory.html


For my efforts, I was personally attacked by author Dave Thomas
in the S.I. as a character assassin and an "incompetent."
Thomas never presented any of my arguments which he tried
instead to spin as nothing more than "quibbles" and "shrill
accusations."

The editor Kendrick Frazier, a close acquaintance of Thomas,
allowed this article to be published, despite the fact that it
obviously violated numerous stated editorial guidelines of the
S.I. such as accuracy, fairness, and criticism sans defamation.
Furthermore, a rebuttal which I submitted to Frazier over 2
months ago has never been acknowledged, and it is quite obvious
to me that Frazier likely has no intention of ever allowing it
to be published. This, incidentally, I put up on my website and
made public, since I suspected from the start that Frazier would
not publish it:

www.roswellproof.com/Skeptical_Inquirer_response.html

If Mssrs. Lippard and Colvin were to review my website, do their
own independent analysis of the data, and are honest about it,
they will be forced to conclude that Moore did indeed perpetrate
a hoax. If they read Thomas' article and are honest about it,
they will also be forced to admit there is no substance to what
Thomas wrote and that he was defending Moore's hoax. This also
puts the S.I. and CSICOP in the position of aiding and abetting
Moore's fraud, the very sort of thing that they are allegedly
opposed to.

I would like Mr. Lippard and Mr. Colvin to comment directly on
what CSICOP _actually_ does, specifically this situation, not
talk abstractly about CSICOP's alleged laudable goals. The lofty
principles mean nothing if they violate them in practice to
further petty personal agendas.

>The opponents of CSICOP are largely more concerned with Type II
>error--failure to believe truths where the evidence supports it.
>This is also a type of error that anybody should want to avoid.

And here is where we get to the crux of where many of us believe
CSICOP fails miserably. They refuse to admit to facts when it
conflicts with CSICOPian biases. In this specific instance the
mathematical facts pointed unambiguously to Moore perpetrating a
hoax.

But this conflicted directly with CSICOPian dogma concerning the
Roswell crash and UFOs. These were necessarily nonsense, the
fantasies and wishful thinking of the gullible, uncritical,
unwashed, and unscientific masses taken in by money-grubbing
writers and film-makers, all of whom are supposedly rolling in
money. To many skeptics, Moore's model trajectory supposedly
scientifically "proved" once and for all that historical winds
would have taken Moore's lost Flight #4 Mogul directly to the
Foster Ranch and perfectly explained the events.

But now it turns out Moore cheated to get his balloon there. If
CSICOP and the S.I. were truly anti-fraud and dedicated to
promoting science and critical thinking, they would have
acknowledged this fact and condemned the hoax, despite their
deeply ingrained antipathy to the Roswell case. But instead of
supporting their own alleged goals, they chose to personally
attack me and defend Moore's hoax.

Further, it currently appears they have no intention of granting
me the customary right of rebuttal. These are instances of the
organization behaving unprofessionally, unscientifically, and
hypocritically, exactly the opposite of what they claim to be.

>>Some would argue that they see a loss of human rationality and
>>a quick slide to a new 'dark ages' upon a serious investigation
>>into the paranormal, when any really rational person only
>>perceives that investigation as forewarning for a future that
>>approaches regardless. What's CSICOP got to hide? If _their_

>You tell me. What is it that you think CSICOP is hiding (as
>opposed to not promoting, or attempting to dissuade people from
>believing on the basis of weak evidence)?

In this specific instance, CSICOP is attempting to hide the fact
that one of their own committed a hoax and they defended it. If
they are truly dedicated to dissuading people from believing on
the basis of weak, not to mention fraudulent evidence, shouldn't
they be doing exactly the opposite?

>>science bears out the work of the paranormalist scientist (of
>>conjecture) shouldn't that be a *good* thing?

>Sure--and I think any supporter of CSICOP would agree.

So if my scientific analysis of Moore's work (nothing paranormal
about it--just math) proves that Moore cheated and that his lost
Mogul balloon, to high probability, had nothing to do with what
rancher Mack Brazel found at his ranch, shouldn't this also be
considered a "good thing?" Doesn't it likely remove one theory
from contention and narrow the possibilities, usually considered
a "good thing" in science.

However, I think at this point it is clear that at least some
supporters of CSICOP, such as Dave Thomas and S.I. editor
Kendrick Frazier, do not agree. And I think a number of us think
the reason they do not agree it is a "good thing" is because it
is a body blow to their dogmatic belief in the Mogul balloon
theory. Further, one of their own turns out to be a hoaxer. And,
perhaps worst of all, the expose' comes from people they
typically label as gullible UFO believers, namely Brad Sparks
and myself. Thus personal revulsion and psychological denial
trump simple, unassailable mathematical facts and science. Where
are CSICOP's alleged high-minded ideals in any of this?

>>This discussion is focused, but it's not on the point really--
>>and the point is... Is CSICOP a fraud? That's the issue.

>I disagree, that's not the issue,

Well, in this specific instance, it _is_ the issue. By choosing
to defend Moore's fraud, they have turned his fraud into their
fraud.

>and I think you should be more accurate with terms like "fraud."

My dictionary definition of "fraud:" "1) Willful deceit;
deception; trickery 2) An act or instance of deception or
trickery."

How does this not apply to what Moore and then the Skeptical
Inquirer did in this instance?

>I think we differ not only on what we think is true, but on how
>we get there. It looks to me like you are making the common
>mistake of demonizing those who disagree with you, rather than
>trying to understand why they disagree with you.

Isn't this exactly what the Skeptical Inquirer did here? My
arguments were deliberately and improperly characterized as
frivolous or wrong and I was called a character assassin and an
incompetent. If that isn't demonizing, what is?

>>So, more and more people, unimpressed with the veracity of
>>CSICOP and leery of its biased prosecutions and duplicitous
>>anti-paranormal prosecutions (for reasons hard to determine,
>>remember...) , more and more become interested in UFOs...

>Most people have never heard of CSICOP, I'm afraid. I think your
>language here betrays a bias on your part that is stronger than
>that of CSICOP--you should remember that the Skeptical Inquirer
>publishes articles from a large field of contributors, and the
>specific issues that CSICOP has been rightly criticized for
>involved only a very few. Further, the worst example--its
>handling of the Mars Effect--resulted in admission of error in
>1983 (Kurtz, Zelen, and Abell's "Reappraisal" article) and the
>publication of two pro-Mars Effect papers from Suitbert Ertel in
>1992 (vol. 16, no. 2, pp. 150-160) and 1998 (vol. 22, no. 4, pp.
>59-60).

When I occasionally read the Skeptical Inquirer, I find authors
who write balanced, well-researched articles, very professional
and scientific in tone, and whose criticisms of hokum are well-
taken. I find myself nodding in agreement. But very often I also
find little more than ranting debunkers, whose articles are not
accurate, fair, balanced, well-researched, logical, rational, or
professional. They are arguing emotionally, not scientifically,
and are instead pushing a specific political or personal agenda.
These articles are propaganda for some CSICOPian dogma, not
science, though they invariably claim to be the latter. The S.I.
is a weird hybrid beast where good science and pure crap often
intermingle on the same pages. It is half "science and reason"
and half "pseudoscience and rant." The S.I. may aspire to be a
good science magazine, but unfortunately the frequency of the
latter type of article makes it unreliable as a purveyor of good
scientific information. It seems too dominated by the deeply-
ingrained biases of those who run it. That does not make for
good science.

It is also clear from your own example of how S.I./CSICOP
handled the Mars Effect debacle that they are not quick to admit
to mistakes or publish opposing points of view. Readers can
review Dennis Rawlings' original sTARBABY article on Updates:

http://virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m30-016.shtml

From Rawlings' article, the S.I./CSICOP political censorship of
his heretical confirmation of the Mars Effect began 5-7 years
before any acknowledgement of error in 1983! In the end, they
never published Rawling's full analysis which showed the alleged
statistical effect to be real (though he believed in a nonoccult
explanation).

As for finally publishing a "pro-Mars Effect" article in 1992--
that was 17 years after CSICOPian founders first published an
article unscientifically trashing it and 15-16 years after
Rawlings' analysis first confirmed that it seemed to be real.
 The wheels of justice are said to turn slowly, but the wheels
of science seem to turn even slower when CSICOP has an axe to
grind or something to hide.

As Rawlings also pointed out, CSICOPian honchos like Kurtz and
Frazier told him they didn't care what the math facts were.
 They were simply damned if they were going to let some French
astrologer get the best of them. Frazier also thought this would
lead to dissension within the ranks and confuse the readership.
Again as Rawlings notes, what this amounted to was CSICOP
fighting pseudoscience with pseudoscience.

In my run-in with the S.I., it is quite possible that the
misbehavior does not extend beyond the author of the article,
namely Dave Thomas, and Thomas' editor friend, Kendrick Frazier,
who allowed it to be published, despite its obvious violations
of stated editorial policy. If this is the case, then the rest
of CSICOP's Executive Council would be wise to step in and put
an end to it now. Otherwise, they become complicit, even if
they had nothing intially to do with the article's publication.
 They should spank Thomas and Frazier for being bad boys, allow
my rebuttal to be published, and also print a retraction to
Thomas' article. That would be the sensible, not to mention
honorable and scientific thing to do.

But if the Mars Effect debacle is any guide, it may be years
before anything like this happens (if ever). Instead they will
stonewall and circle the wagons even more. I'll continue to be
demonized as a "character assassin" and an "incompetent" for
having the audacity to point out that numbers like 100/12.1 =
350 or 692/.4 = 900 are "slightly" off (no kidding--real Moore
numbers), and that Moore cheated with his math in multiple other
instances. But to hell with the facts! CSICOP will no doubt be
damned to let some Ufologist get the better of them.

David (no occultist and pro-Real-science) Rudiak









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   Dec > Dec 29

             Re: Animal Mutilations & Covert Monitoring For BSE

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4@btinternet.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 21:39:51 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 10:23:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Animal Mutilations & Covert Monitoring For BSE


>From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <colm_kelleher@hotmail.com>
>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 19:48:54 -0800
>Subject: Animal Mutilations & Covert Monitoring For BSE

>Now that surprisingly, there has been an official report of BSE
>in Washington State it is worth carefully examining the NIDS
>report, published 6 months ago, on the temporal and geographical
>relationship between BSE and animal mutilations.

>http://216.128.67.116/pdf/cattledeaths_tse_epidemic.pdf

>I think a careful reading of this report will reveal a potential
>public health catastrophe that is lying beneath the surface in
>North American culinary habits.


Colm,

Can I ask why you are surprised about there being an official
report of BSE in Washington?

May I also ask how the conclusion about why the bodies are left
was reached? Was it simply that Vallee's and Smith's conclusions
seemed the most likely?

And the inevitable question; do you have any ideas yourself as
to who or what is behind it all?


Stuart Miller








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   Dec > Dec 29

                         CI: A Pleiadian Connection?

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 13:43:46 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 10:24:46 -0500
Subject: CI: A Pleiadian Connection?



12-28-03
Cydonian Imperative

The "City": A Pleiadian Connection?


See: http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 44)


[image]

The Pleiades.

The Pleiades constellation has a venerable tradition among "New
Age" media. Now an independent discovery suggests that the seven
stars might be represented on the Martian surface. Lynsay Watson
has noticed a number of correspondences between the Pleiades and
the the "City" area in Cydonia.

[image]

The City.

On his website, Watson provides a stimulating step-by-step
examination of the proposed correspondences. While the initial
reaction may be to chalk up the City's resemblance to the
Pleiades as wishful thinking, a careful look suggests otherwise.

[image]

Pyramids in Egypt shown next to three stars in the Orion
constellation.

In a striking parallel, some Egyptologists think that the Giza
Pyramids were emplaced to represent stars in the Orion
constellation. Could a prior technological civilization on Mars
have been motivated by a similar desire to reproduce the
heavens? If borne out by further research, Watson's discovery
could help frame the Martian enigmas in a cultural context.

-end-








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              CCCRN News: Formation Report #17 - Abbotsford, BC

From: Paul Anderson <psa@cccrn.ca>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 15:54:04 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 10:26:40 -0500
Subject: CCCRN News: Formation Report #17 - Abbotsford, BC



CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

December 28, 2003

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


FORMATION REPORT #17 - ABBOTSFORD, BRITISH COLUMBIA #2

Formation of two circles found on December 15, by Laurel Leaman-
Konrad and Jo Slingerland, near location of previous "trident"
formation at Abbotsford last August. One circle in cattle corn
and the other partly in cattle corn and partly in grass, about
30 - 46 metres (100 - 150 feet) apart. Circle in both cattle
corn and grass slightly larger than other one in cattle corn,
approximately 16.75 metres (55 feet) diameter. Grass in larger
circle roughly splayed out. Field had been harvested and both
circles in deteriorated condition, supporting the probability of
them being an older formation from last summer (estimated to
have occurred last July or August at time of other formations at
Abbotsford and Agassiz but not known about at the time). A
helicopter had also been witnessed circling over same part of
the field last summer in early August. Further details pending.
This is the seventeenth known report for 2003.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an e-mail with either
Subscribe CCCRN News or Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the subject
line to: cccrnnews@cccrn.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, media and scientists

C. CCCRN, 2003








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                       The Mothman Death List Updated

From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman@maine.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:31:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 10:25:31 -0500
Subject: The Mothman Death List Updated


December 27, 2003

The Mothman Prophecies' Alan Bates dies
The Mothman Death List Updated

http://www.lorencoleman.com/mothman_death_list.html
(scroll to the bottom)








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               CSICOPians Pelicanists & Skepti-Bunkies Oh My!

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 11:06:39 _0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 07:50:46 -0500
Subject: CSICOPians Pelicanists & Skepti-Bunkies Oh My!


CSICOPians and Pelicanists and Skepti-Bunkies, Oh My!

By Alfred Lehmberg

www.AlienView.net


[Illustration at http://www.AlienView.net/avpel.jpg "The PSC's!"]

This is a one-shot-gets-all, honored reader! No one is singled
out. I mean, the "addressed" know who they are. The larger
(Thank Gawd!) remainder of us know who _they_ are, and Errol may
allow it, then, for its lack of personal specificity.

Having publicly pointed out the aforementioned breed of "them"
currently (these head eating aliens of the planet CSICOPia), it
becomes necessary (based on the attendant heart-felt E-mails
recently received) to put some pointy little craniums to rest
and assuage some piqued dishwater sensibilities ... cool some
angry teapot/tempest outrages... Not!

I come to bury Caesar... not to praise (or assuage!) him.

Addressing the "addressed" directly... your hurt pouties and
officious condemnations are not with me, you too comfortable,
elitist, and ironic (if not moronic) lack-wits, no. They are
with named writers and thinkers, investigators and researchers,
professors and doctors... brave women and men who have shown
(over an extended period of time!) that they can put behind them
their more childish ways (regarding a supposed homocentric
intellectual position at the center of the whole freaking
universe), and think constructively (very likely more
profitably) but, necessarily, out of the shallow box that Planet
CSICOPia would proscribe for them...

In short? ...Your fight is with persons who _don't_ have their
heads locked, smotheringly, up between each others amply
pimpled, hairyly abundant, and mal-academic ass-cheeks, the way
_yours_ are!

These writers, thinkers, investigators, researchers, professors
and doctors I allude to hold the _higher_ cognitive ground, have
the _wider- intellectual view, know the _greater_ psychological
reality, and make the _superior_ scientific contribution. They
lead (and have led) you by your bubble-blowing noses! In level
debates they mop the academic floor with the best your
intellectually constipated CSICOPia can offer (or your best
would debate Stanton Friedman (et. al.), right now, on national
TV, and put this little "UFO problem" behind you, straight
away!).

Your fight is with the aforementioned! It is not with me, only
_one_ of the genuinely innocent observers in the ufological
debate where you prove, over and over again (embarrassingly for
you), that you shall not win (for _all- the accommodations of
your lap-dog mainstream)!

...And me? I've no axe to grind but the one that cleaves for
truth... about my society, about my species, about my reality,
and about myself. I'll walk away, gladly, from someone or
something that has shown itself to be false (as I have recently
demonstrated), and it won't matter how well connected it is. My
bias, if I have one at all, was created by the greater bias of
the opposition! The same way unrestricted capitalists create a
communist, racial bigots create Black Panthers, Chauvinists
create femi-nazis, and homophobes create militant gays. Someone
stood on someone else's neck at the start... and there was a
consequence. CSICOP has created _me_!

Moreover, I'm the absolute first with a mea culpa! Why? Because
admission is advancement! You on the other hand can admit -
 nothing!

Your fight is with the aforementioned persons! It is not with
me, just one of the perturbed and irritated masses who finds you
as unconvincing as he finds you presupposing! I'm merely one of
the growing numbers of persons who perceive your sneering
confidence as complacent arrogance! I'm merely one of the
expanding population who sees your current collective worldview
not as the "intellectual redemption" of humankind you'd
proclaim, but as a diminished potentiality for it, and a tragic,
missed, opportunity for same!

Your fight is with the aforementioned! It is not with me, a mere
mote of consciousness that you have been able to convince... not
at all!

...And not because of some intellectual failing on my part!
...Not because of some cognitive defect I possess! ...Not
because of some mental aberration afflicting _me-... no. It is
because of the lack of substance in _your_ arguments. It is
because _you_ are shown to be so often in error. It is because
_you_ are shown to be rationally inconsistent! It is because
_you_ are shown to be duplicitous, character assassinating, and
deliberately obfuscating! Lately you even gloat about it and
spin your canted chicanery as a service to science! Astonishing!

Your fight is not with me! It is with a long list of names you
work busily to discredit and marginalize, that you furiously
prosecute in your totally corrupted mainstream, and that you
passionately persecute in Lists such as this one! Adjudicate
_these_ persons conclusively, ardent pelicanists, scurrilous
skepti-bunkies, and insentient CSICOPians, and your battle with
_me_ is WON!

...But I right cross with a "David Rudiak", upper-cut with
"Stanton Friedman," hay-make a series of trip-hammer "Richard
Halls" and roundhouse with a decisive "Jerry Clark"! This is a
random grab of punches from a seasoned ufological arsenal,
bunky, there are dozens more past and present!

You're on your _ass_, Pelican boy! You skepti-bunkies are a
_sad_ and pathetic piece of work, you know that?

...And don't throw your degrees and certificates at me. I'm
singularly under-whelmed! I've graduated college recently, MCL,
so your degrees have been abundantly (and very necessarily!)...
demystified, shall we say...

Moreover, the worst of you has turned an honorable quest for
academic truth into a "tyranny of letters" ( letters in many
cases pointless and inappropriate, or what's Dr. Nickels doing
in CSICOP?). PhD's are the BS of a bachelor in science... just
Piled Higher and Deeper... more often than is fortunate for us
(and them!)! The message _is_ more important than the medium, an
argument you'd make stridently, I'm sure, but then ultimately
betray... I digress...

I know how you love to wallow in your self-involved little
details and mire your oppposition in sticky protestations
regarding convenient definitions and spun logic and artful
fallacy. I know how you ask the trick question, ignore the
citation, give the evasive answer, and employ the disingenuous.
I know how you contrive to define your terms, ignore the
evidence and engineer same! I know how you fix on the
immaterial, cherry-pick your substantiation, and drive data to
your foregone conclusions. Truly, You are what you'd accuse...

Additionally, arguing with you is like arguing with a drunk or a
Fundamentalist. The former's room is spinning, and the latter
spins the room. Neither will admit, remember, or be instructed
by error.

...And You call _me_ a believer! How can I be a mere believer
when I find it so effortless to _not_ believe _you-? Admit it!
It's my lack of "belief" in _you_ that qualifies me as a rank
"believer"! What a wonderful irony, eh, if you _can_ think about
what you _can_ think about... [g].

Further, you dismiss me as a credulous advocate, when I am only
a genuine advocate for the huge volume of _extant_ evidence of a
quality that cannot be forever ignored...Verily, the eminence of
the anecdotal evidence, compounded with the vetted photographic
evidence, and then added to the documented historical evidence,
gives _every_ indication that a ufological assertion regarding
this phenomena _must_ be more real than not... ! I'm being
_abundantly_ conservative!

Moreover, when the preceding is framed by the serious artistic
evidence, qualified by the available physical evidence, and then
compellingly buttressed by the conclusively personal evidence
(...if you have any, and I do...), I can only be annoyingly
astonished by your continued inexplicable and unsupportable
reluctance ... an unbrave reluctance... to face the highly
strange music that just cannot be _forever_ marginalized!

Does the information available justify attention by the
mainstream to perform a more in depth investigation of UFOs?
Absolutely! Do _you- blithely ignore same? Also, absolutely!

This is the element of your ultimate discredit, you serially
insouciant skepti-bunkies, pompously pontificating pelicanists,
and soullessly shopworn CSICOPians! We're _tired_ of your lot
pissing on our aggregate cognitive leg and telling us it's rain!
The problems you whine to me about, actually, are not with us
(and not with me)! They're with you... your argument, your
attitude, and your outlook!

You see? Your paradigms are 19th Century! Your worldview is
medieval! Your sense of position in the scheme of things is
dismayingly ancient. You are old, you are outdated, and your
preeminence is increasingly undeserved (even ludicrous!) with
each passing day!

It is _you_ that is the millstone around the neck of humanity,
pelican-boy, not an undisciplined and impassioned fringe
_evolved_ to fill a void that _you_ provide and make work for
you! It's you, actually, that is the scurrilous disease
affecting our science, degrading our spirituality, and hobbling
our intellectual advancement as a species!

It is _you_ blunting the point of our creativeness as a people
with your too narrow, excessively shallow, very exclusionary,
two color, bigoted and ideologue aping (convenient and self-
serving!) sliding-scale values! It is _you_ employing your
complacent and unequally applied ethics and moral absolutes
(provided for and demanded of others... _outside_ your
conflicted clan) that is the problem, sirs, not those of us
noticing that your flag won't go all the way to the cosmic top,
that it fumbles the four-field deadlock-nut regarding a "handle
on things"... that it continues to confuse honest "reach" with
contrived "grasp"!

In closing, let me say that all you running-dog PSCs can just
_stop_ with the whiney, insulting, and ineffective personal
mail, your accounts are handily frozen-out as they occur, I'm
indifferent to your angry arguments regardless, and there are
too many to try to debate effectively anyway (another scurrilous
attack ploy your lot practices). I'm not banging a drum I expect
you to ever agree with because you see your agreement as,
well... your death, actually. And you're right! ...But, your
death connotes our _rebirth_, dim bulb! So, for your sake and
ours, die already! Please!

You proclaim that you alone hear the music playing... but you
want to isolate the individual notes in the symphony, at best!
If you do _that- you'll never hear the complete symphony, and,
consequently, never discover which notes carry the ascendant
tune!

Awwww... That was probably too rich for the poo-poo tushy
pelicanists, who don't know from a moribund moot-pooty - anyway!
It doesn't matter. I'm not here for _their_ hurdles, they're
here for _mine-! They can be satisfied, or not, with critical
poems at 30 paces, sniper commentary that doesn't respect them,
and the occasional piece of art to fly up their self-important
noses! On my _own_ recognizance, I'm decidedly out of _their_
box and comfort zone. They can pound wet sand for their trouble!

Know this! I'm happy to lurk in the tall grass for you. Your
disservices will be highlighted! Your fallacies will be
explored! Your inconsistencies will be chronicled! Your agendas
will be exposed! I won't be the only one to "such" and "so".

I'm not in here with you, proud CSICOPian, glad Pelicanist, and
fat-cat establishment Skepti-bunky. You're in here with _me-!
Get used to it.

...From the creative tall grass, fatuous myopic ones! From the
tall grass!








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   Dec > Dec 30

             Fred Crisman Key Man In JFK/UFO Conspiracy/Coverup

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 09:50:10 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 07:55:27 -0500
Subject:  Fred Crisman Key Man In JFK/UFO Conspiracy/Coverup


Happy New Year Fellow Listers!

Since "Maury Island" (MI)is a "pet project of mine," I'll take a
moment to comment on the article below.

>Source: Conspiracy Planet

>http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=94&contentid=1033

>Saturday, December 27, 2003


>Fred Crisman:Key Man in JFK/UFO Conspiracy/Coverup

>by Hal Mckenzie

>The conspiracy to assassinate John F. Kennedy and the cover-up
>of the presence of extraterrestrials on earth are the two
>biggest of the government's "big lies" alleged by so-called
>conspiracy buffs.

>Assuming that a single covert bureaucracy would manage both
>coverups, it is not surprising that the same people show up in
>both conspiracies.

>Kenn Thomas, author of 'Maury Island UFO: The Crisman
>Conspiracy,' identifies one such figure as Fred Crisman, a man
>with a complicated life story involving the UFO subculture, off-
>beat domestic politics and the JFK assassination. Thomas spoke
>about his book at the Crash Retrieval Conference in Las Vegas,
>Nev., on Nov. 14-16. Thomas is also editor of Steamshovel Press
>(www.steamshovelpress.com), a conspiracy-oriented magazine and
>website.

>Thomas recounted Crisman's central role in the Maury Island UFO
>encounter of June 21, 1947, which involved the recovery of slag-
>like material ejected from a crippled UFO off the coast of
>Washington.

Certainly the events near MI with Crisman's involvement, and
Crisman separately have more twists and turns in them then a bag
of pretzels. Methinks a Hollywood script wouldn't fare any
better! (In terms of excitement and suspense).

>Crisman is also named in New Orleans District Attorney Jim
>Garrison's 1968 investigation into the Kennedy assassination, in
>which Garrison maintained that Crisman may have been an assassin
>working on behalf of aerospace concerns to kill Kennedy.

>In a well-known underground report called the Torbitt Document,
>Crisman is named as one of three hoboes picked up in the
>railyard behind the grassy knoll at Dealy Plaza, Thomas said.

One only needs to look at the photo of the "three hoboes" to
eliminate Crisman as a suspect. (Aside from the fact that his
whereabouts at the time has been documented).

>Garrison also investigated Guy Banister, who was in charge of an
>office in New Orleans that employed Lee Harvey Oswald in a
>variety of capacities.

>Banister was FBI Special Agent in Charge in the Pacific
>northwest at the time of the Maury Island case.

>The details of the Maury Island UFO case and Garrison's
>complicated life and associations are so labyrinthine that one
>reviewer said of Thomas' book that it is "information rich to
>the point of saturation."

>Thomas said details of the Maury Island case come from several
>Freedom of Information Act requests filed by him and other
>researchers, first hand accounts and various published accounts,
>including a comic book rendition that he showed in slides during
>his presentation. They also include such books as Kenneth
>Arnold's The Coming of the Saucers and Edward Ruppelt's Project
>Blue Book report.

>The Maury Island story beings on June 21, 1947, three days
>before what is widely regarded as the event that launched the
>modern UFO era, pilot Kenneth Arnold's sightings of "flying
>saucers" over Mt. Ranier.

>A lumber salvager named Harold Dahl, his son and two
>unidentified people on a salvage boat in the bay witnessed six
>doughnut-shaped craft, one wobbling, the others surrounding it
>and apparently trying to help it.

>Dahl described the craft as 20 feet in diameter with five-foot
>portholes in their sides. The craft in the middle wobbled and
>dropped down about 700 feet before it stopped wobbling. Then one
>of the circling saucers broke formation, flew down, touched it
>and also became still.

Dahl's description according to Kenneth Arnold was that the
craft were "one hundred feet in diameter." (Page 31 The Coming
of The Saucers). Dahl said, "I would judge they were at about
2000 feet above the water and almost directly overhead... The
other aircraft stayed at a distance of about 200 feet above the
center one as if they were following the center one down. The
center aircraft came to rest directly overhead at about five
hundred feet above the water... After about five or six
minutes one of the aircraft from the circling formation left its
place in the formation and lowered itself down right next to the
stationary aircraft. In fact, it appeared to touch it and stayed
stationary next to the center aircraft as if it were giving some
kind of assistance for about three or four minutes."

>The craft then spewed two different substances, white paper-like
>metal that floated into the bay, and a black slag-like substance
>that came down hot enough to raise steam. Pieces of that
>material struck Dahl's son and killed his dog.

>Dahl reported these events to Crisman, who is described as
>Dahl's "superior." Crisman went to Maury Island to take a look,
>and not only saw a great deal of both materials on the shore and
>recovered some for himself, but also claimed to have had his own
>sighting of a doughnut-shaped craft.

Although the recount of MI in TCOTS indicates that Crisman was
Dahl's "superior," declassified "FBI docs" dispute that; in fact
they indicate that Crisman was "employed by Dahl."

>Crisman reported his experience to Ray Palmer, a publisher of
>pulp magazines like Amazing Stories.

>Palmer hired Kenneth Arnold to investigate the case, whose own
>sightings three days later initiated a UFO wave, a part of which
>was the story of a housewife who recovered in that area a 30-
>inch saucer that she handed over to FBI officer Guy Banister.

Obviously Kenneth Arnold's sightings "didn't initiate" the UFO
wave of 1947.

>Two Air Force investigators joined Arnold's investigation at
>Maury island, Capt. Lee Davidson and 1st Lt. Frank Mercer Brown.
>The two officers worked under Gen. Nathan Twining to collect
>information on the UFO flap with particular attention to
>retrieval stories, Thomas said.

Capt William L. Davidson and Lt. Frank M. Brown were CIC agents
investigating "Flying Disk" sightings all over the country. They
were the "first 'known' military investigators" to lose their
lives in pursuit of information pertaining to Unidentified Aerial
Phenomenon.

>Crisman turned samples of the debris to them, which was loaded
>into their plane, a B-25 bomber. Shortly after taking off to
>return to Wright-Patterson AFB, the plane crashed, killing the
>two men. The counter-intelligence team sent out to clean up the
>crash site supposedly failed to find any evidence of the Maury
>Island debris.

If memory serves, I don't believe the military commented either
way, other then saying that Brown and Davidson were carrying
"classified material" when they crashed.

>However, Thomas said that one of the recently surfaced MJ12
>documents suggests that Crisman turned samples of the debris
>over to Clay Shaw, one of the three people that Garrison
>attempted to indict in the alleged conspiracy to kill Kennedy.

With the exception of the afore mentioned MJ-12 doc, there has
been no other evidence that has surfaced to support Crisman's
enlistment in the CIC.

>Although Shaw was acquitted of the crime, his role as a CIA
>agent is well-documented.

>Crisman's life followed many strange twists and turns. According
>to Thomas, "He had one foot in the intelligence world, the other
>in the world of con-men and bums."

>Crisman reportedly told the tale that during World War II he
>fought a race of underground aliens called the Deros in caverns
>in Burma. He was involved with the Universal Life Church, a
>right-wing fringe group connected with the Minutemen armed
>militia.

>In 1968 he was an early "shock jock" along the lines of Rush
>Limbaugh, holding forth in a radio talk show in Tacoma. He was
>also involved in local politics, seeking to overthrow the city
>management in Tacoma. In 1975, he died of kidney failure at the
>age of 56.

The "Maury Island Incident" has every aspect of a good Hollywood
suspense-thriller! In fact, "Steven Spielberg, if your reading
this, MI could be your next "block-buster!"

On the other hand for those that haven't given MI much thought
due to many researchers discounting it has a hoax perpetrated by
Dahl and Crisman - it's important to point out that MI was a
"multiple witness" incident. Moreover, the MIB encounter by Dahl
the following day, (the first one by all accounts) was also
experienced by another witness who said he was threatened in a
similar fashion by a "government man," who "scared the hell out
of him." In addition, shortly after the MI incident there was
another sighting reported, that described an eerily similar craft
like the one reported by Dahl in the SeaTac area.

Of course the "white 'newspaper like' light metal" that according
to Dahl, "spewed from the aircraft" is oddly similar to Roswell's
"memory metal," and the work that Jacques Vallee did in
documenting other "UFO spewing metal" events right up into the
90's certainly would make one reevaluate MI--but then again maybe
that's just me?


Finally, in talking with Dahl's estranged daughter not to long
ago, (she spent the last few weeks of his life with him) she
affirmed his belief in extraterrestrial life, UFO's etc. Also,
the last survivor of the Brown and Davidson's ill-fated B-25
handled the "disc-bits," but didn't put to much into it. Although
his health is failing physically, he remains sharp mentally and
was quick to recall the flight and his first parachute jump.


Regards,

Frank Warren










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   Dec > Dec 30

                       UFO Stirs Russian Civil Defense

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:13:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 07:57:29 -0500
Subject: UFO Stirs Russian Civil Defense



SOURCE: ANSA News Agency
DATE: December 29, 2003
http://www.ansa.it/ansalatina/notizie/rubriche/variedades/20031229162632799336.h
tml
RUSSIA: UFO MOBILIZES CIVIL DEFENSE

MOSCOW, 29 (ANSA) - Russian Civil Defense authorities sent a
helicopter to the Russian Siberian region of Kemerovo, whose
inhabitants claimed having seen an unidentified flying object
which gave the impression of having "landed".

Regional authorities quoted by the Itar-Tass news agency
explained that in early hours of December 26th, residents of the
city of Gurievsk followed the maneuvers of a UFO for over half
an hour. The object, which had the appearance of a fireball,
eventually fell to earth.

According to eyewitness accounts, no explosions were heard, nor
were any reports of fires or toppled trees received, as seems to
occur whenever a meteorite is involved. (ANSA).

---------------------------------
Translation (C) 2003 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi





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   Dec > Dec 30

                Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:18:58 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 08:09:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Colvin


From: Peter Huston <phuston@capital.net>
  To: "skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu" <skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:35:32 -0500
Subj: FWD (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:37:58 -0800
>Subject: Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>When I occasionally read the Skeptical Inquirer, I find authors
>who write balanced, well-researched articles, very professional
>and scientific in tone, and whose criticisms of hokum are well-
>taken. I find myself nodding in agreement. But very often I
>also find little more than ranting debunkers, whose articles are
>not accurate, fair, balanced, well-researched, logical,
>rational, or professional. They are arguing emotionally, not
>scientifically, and are instead pushing a specific political or
>personal agenda.

>These articles are propaganda for some CSICOPian dogma, not
>science, though they invariably claim to be the latter. The S.I.
>is a weird hybrid beast where good science and pure crap often
>intermingle on the same pages. It is half "science and reason"
>and half "pseudoscience and rant." The S.I. may aspire to be a
>good science magazine, but unfortunately the frequency of the
>latter type of article makes it unreliable as a purveyor of good
>scientific information. It seems too dominated by the deeply-
>ingrained biases of those who run it. That does not make for
>good science."


I've been following this thread reasonably closely over the last
few days, and could see no reason to participate as Jim Lippard
is doing a wonderful job (as usual) of logically expressing
opinions and sharing facts.

I agree with what Dave Rudiak has posted here. I think it gets
back to what Jim has been saying  (in part) and I sort of said a
few weeks ago.

Let me comment please.

There is a distinct difference between things that are
scientifically proven (i.e. the gravity from the Earth's moon
creates the tides) and things that are often not scientifically
proven but many people believe. (i.e. astrology and the idea
that the movement of the planets control our destiny.) Many, if
not most, people do not really understand this difference. Since
skeptics consider this difference to be quite important, people
who don't understand this difference have trouble understanding
skeptics and why they believe the things they do. (Jim's been
trying to point this out, I think.)

To add further to the confusion, Skeptics (like Christians,
Communists, and Boy Scouts, and all humans everywhere.) do not
always live up to their stated ideals. Although I am not
familiar with the case cited by David Rudiak, on the surface it
sounds like he may have found such a case of skeptics not living
up to their own ideals.

IMHO, although if true this is quite serious and I don't wish to
minimize that, to me it seems to just emphasize the need to look
at the process of how one reaches a conclusion using science. In
any science, mistakes and willfull hoaxes will occur. The
Skeptical Inquirer will publish things that are wrong from time
to time. It should not be accepted as "gospel" by anyone,
although I will state that, IMHO, some people at CSICOP would
like you to. Much of my grumbling over the years has been based
in my belief that CSICOP wishes to remain exempt from being the
target of critical thinking or skepticism. Then again, in the
big picture, most people in the world and the country have never
even heard of CSICOP and have no idea what it is. We all must
learn to think for ourselves as it is a mistake to let anyone
else, even or perhaps especially, CSICOP do it for us.

Lest David Rudiak accuse me of neglecting his concern, let me
say that the reason I have never read the article is because I
stopped reading the Skeptical Inquirer years ago. Lest he
complain that I am ignoring the issue of this alleged hoax, let
me respectfully say that if someone did a bad job or even a
willfully immoral job of debunking the claim of a Rosswell
crashed saucer, this does not make the claimed saucer crash
proven. It is important in other ways, however, if this is true.
Ultimately, I'd need to see some proof of such a crash before I
would believe in it. (And I like to think I looked into it
enough to know there is little hard proof although I don't claim
to be familiar with all the allegations. One good piece of proof
is worth more than a thousand flimsy allegations.)


Peter Huston

(A bit more rambling than Jim Lippard perhaps, but hopefully
there's something of use in there somewhere.)


-- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com









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   Dec > Dec 30

               Re: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? -

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:19:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 08:43:32 -0500
Subject: Re: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? -


Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:10:15 -0700
From: "James J. Lippard" <lippard-skeptic@discord.org>
 To: skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu
Subj: FWD (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:37:58 -0800
>Subject: Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 15:39:39 -0700
>>Subject: Re: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? -

>>From: James J. Lippard <lippard-skeptic@discord.org>
>>To: skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu
>>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:31:03 -0700
>>Subj: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 06:29:05 -0600
>>>Subject: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>I think the primary motivation of CSICOP, or at least CSICOP
>>supporters, is to promote critical thinking and skepticism, and
>>to prevent people from being taken in by fraud and falling into
>>error (specifically Type I error--believing falsehoods on the
>>basis of weak evidence). These should be laudable goals in
>>anyone's book.

Unfortunately, the controversy Mr. Rudiak speaks of has come to
allegations in multiple directions. I have not immersed myself
into this controversy as yet, so can't comment as to whether I
think he is right or wrong.

Rudiak's analysis:

http://www.roswellproof.com/flight4_trajectory.html

Critiques of Rudiak's analysis:

Timothy Printy, "Rudiak: Right, Wrong or Just Ridiculous?"

http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/rudiak.html

Dave Thomas, "Bait and Switch on 'Roswell: The Smoking Gun'"

http://www.nmsr.org/sf-gun.htm

In the above, Thomas says that Rudiak has refused to correspond
directly with him. I intend to contact him directly to ask him
about this matter.

Mr. Rudiak, if you have submitted a response to Skeptical
Inquirer that was rejected, I invite you to submit it to my
"Letters Skeptical Inquirer Refused to Publish" page, along with
documentation to support that it was indeed submitted and
rejected:

http://www.discord.org/~lippard/si-letters.html

Of the two previous letters submitted via this mechanism (one of
my own, and one from Loren Coleman and Patrick Huyghe), the
latter ended up being published by Skeptical Inquirer after all.

--
Jim Lippard
lippard-skeptic@discord.org
http://www.discord.org/
GPG Key ID: 0xF8D42CFE



--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1@mindspring.com








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   Dec > Dec 30

                           Mystery Of Train #1702

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 09:09:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 09:09:29 -0500
Subject: Mystery Of Train #1702




Source: Pravda.Com

http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/378/11661_train.html

12/27/2003 13:40

Mystery of Train #1702


A freight train pulled an UFO for an hour

The event happened about 20 years ago, however people in Karelia
still remember it. Witnesses of the mysterious incident are
still alive and now believe that UFO actually exists.

In February 1985, a freight train #1702 consisting of 70 empty
cars and a locomotive followed to the city of Kostomuksha
through Petrozavodsk and Suoyarvi. Engine driver Orlov and his
mate Mironov were talking while watching the railway. The train
passed the station of Essoila at 2:35 a.m. according to the
schedule.

Suddenly, Sergey Orlov noticed some strange object behind the
trees; the round object was moving parallel to the train. It was
not clear what the object might be. The engine driver saw the
object let out a ray of light toward the ground and then drew it
in.

Mironov could not speak for a moment as he saw the ball cross
the railway and start moving 30-50 meters ahead of the train.
Sergey Orlov stopped the engine and slammed on the brakes to
avoid collision with the bright ball. But the train would not
stop; it seemed that some strange power still pulled it.

The engine driver and the mate felt as if hypnotized and stared
at the mysterious object. Later, they told the inquiry the
object was a regular geometrical form of about four meters in
diameter. It moved silently above the surface as if drifting.

The train was approaching the Novye Peski station. Sergey Orlov
switched on his portable radio and felt happy when the device
was on. He made desperate attempts to explain what has happened
to the train to a person on duty at the station. The woman could
hardly understand what the engine driver was saying, but still
went out to meet the train approaching the station. The woman
was extremely surprised to see some vibrating object looking
like an upturned basin, the shining ball followed the vibrating
object and only after them the train appeared at a speed of 60
km per hour. It seemed that the ball might hit the building of
the small station.

But right before the switch the ball suddenly separated from the
diesel locomotive and passed around the building of the station.
But the train would not stop and passed the station at its
gathered speed.

Historian Alexey Popov investigating UFO in the republic of
Karelia says that the engine driver and the mate mention only
the ball because they could not see the object resembling an
upturned basin from the cab.

On that mysterious day, as soon as the ball passed the switch it
immediately rushed to the train. When it moved off the train,
its speed reduced at least by half. The diesel locomotive
twitched heavily, and the men inside of the cab hit against the
windshield. However, the locomotive gathered its speed as soon
as the shining ball approached the train again.

The train managed to stop only near the Zastava station. The
ball disappeared behind the forest. The locomotive crew had to
wait for a train coming from the opposite direction, to the city
of Petrozavodsk. The engine driver got out of the cab to examine
the wheels. As soon as he walked around the locomotive he felt
some strange force press him against the machine. He could not
move; when the man could move he hardly reached the cab. That
was strange but as soon as he reached the cab, the train started
off as if it was waiting for the man to take the seat. The train
kept on moving for some time until the shining ball disappeared
behind the forest.

Alexey Popov says that the incident lasted for an hour and
twenty minutes, the period within which the ball pulled the
train for over 50 kilometers. That spared 300 kilograms of
diesel oil for the locomotive. People involved in the incident
experienced a strong nervous shock. Automatic recorders of the
locomotive and other official documents prove the reliability of
the strange incident. However, there is no believable
explanation to the phenomenon. The shining ball was noticed
earlier at the Kutizhma station even before it came across the
train #1702.

This is a hard task to pull a train weighing 1560 tons for 50
kilometers; it requires much energy, indeed. Sergey Orlov says
the ball acted rather intelligently, as it passed around
switches and buildings of railway stations, and even withdrew to
the forest when a train appeared from the opposite direction.

The story seems to be incredible until one meets people who took
part in it. The railway workers would hardly lie, as they do
believe that the incident was an UFO visit.

Doctor of physical and mathematical sciences from the Moscow
State University Leonid Speransky commented upon the phenomenon.
"The hypothesis of extraterrestrial life existing in other
galaxies cannot be ruled out. It is frequently said that organic
substances may be formed not only on the basis of carbon and
water, the way substances are formed on this planet. Adherents
of the theory say that life may be formed on the basis of
silicone and other chemical compounds; substances formed out of
these materials can survive under extremely high or low
temperatures. If we allow these theories, then we can suppose
that life may exist even in the form of clouds and shining balls
of some organic substance. However, we can neither confirm nor
deny existence of extraterrestrial life as based on present-day
scientific researches."

The number of reports about UFOs from witnesses is enormous in
this country. The Vestnik UFO bulletin held a research in 1999
and revealed that about 9 per cent of Russia's population say
they witnessed UFOs and 56 per cent believe that these objects
exist. The UFO is a universal phenomenon, as polls held in other
countries reveal approximately the same situation. In the epoch
of space voyages people are used to seeing planes, helicopters
and balloons high in the skies. However, they still expect
miracle and strange phenomena.

In 1963, the US carried out the Blue Book project and considered
about 13,000 reports from UFO witnesses. Upon completion of the
research, the commission decreed there was no evidence proving
that the phenomena under report were of extraterrestrial origin.
In some cases we do not have enough information to define what
we actually see above the head. The nature of UFO phenomena is
in fact fantastic stories invented by people. The phenomenon
observed in Petrozavodsk highly likely belongs to the category
of UFO legends; not only participants but also law enforcement
structures believed in its reality. One of the most credible
hypotheses explaining the phenomenon is that the shining object
was in fact ball lightning that appears not only in
thunderstorm. Unfortunately, ball lightning is the least studied
phenomenon today. It is highly likely to be an enormous energy
substance which power can be compared with a large electric
power station; it spontaneously ejects quantum vacuum energy. It
is well known that ball lightning can influence man's psyche and
state of health; unfortunately people cannot predict how ball
lighting will move or control it.

Natalia Leskova


Read the original in Russian:

http://science.pravda.ru/science/2003/6/79/304/15458_UFO.html

(Translated by: Maria Gousseva)


[UFO UpDates thanks http://www.anomalist.com & Richard Hendricks
 for the lead]







   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 30

               Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 09:17:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 13:33:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup? - Lehmberg


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1@mindspring.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:18:58 -0700
>Subject: (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>From: Peter Huston <phuston@capital.net>
>To: "skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu" <skeptic@listproc.hcf.jhu.edu>
>Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:35:32 -0500
>Subj: FWD (SK) Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@earthlink.net>
>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:37:58 _0800
>>Subject: Re: Starbaby & A New CSICOP Coverup?

>>When I occasionally read the Skeptical Inquirer, I find authors
>>who write balanced, well_researched articles, very professional
>>and scientific in tone, and whose criticisms of hokum are well_
>>taken. I find myself nodding in agreement. But very often I
>>also find little more than ranting debunkers, whose articles are
>>not accurate, fair, balanced, well_researched, logical,
>>rational, or professional. They are arguing emotionally, not
>>scientifically, and are instead pushing a specific political or
>>personal agenda.

>>These articles are propaganda for some CSICOPian dogma, not
>>science, though they invariably claim to be the latter. The S.I.
>>is a weird hybrid beast where good science and pure crap often
>>intermingle on the same pages. It is half "science and reason"
>>and half "pseudoscience and rant." The S.I. may aspire to be a
>>good science magazine, but unfortunately the frequency of the
>>latter type of article makes it unreliable as a purveyor of good
>>scientific information. It seems too dominated by the deeply_
>>ingrained biases of those who run it. That does not make for
>>good science."

>I've been following this thread reasonably closely over the last
>few days, and could see no reason to participate as Jim Lippard
>is doing a wonderful job (as usual) of logically expressing
>opinions and sharing facts.

Naw... he gets as nasty and insinuating as any. As soon as it's
made plain that his rules aren't being followed he gets
downright pouty and insultingly bellicose. His feet are decided
clay, Mr. Huston. He defends the indefensible, you see, with
'calmness' and 'rationality' and 'science'.

>I agree with what Dave Rudiak has posted here. I think it gets
>back to what Jim has been saying (in part) and I sort of said a
>few weeks ago.

>Let me comment please.

>There is a distinct difference between things that are
>scientifically proven (i.e. the gravity from the Earth's moon
>creates the tides)

Right... what's gravity? No, no, no... not the "Britannica
blurb..."

>and things that are often not scientifically
>proven but many people believe. (i.e. astrology and the idea
>that the movement of the planets control our destiny.)

That whole field regarding stars and planets having impact on
destiny predates dirt, damn near, pardner! Real science in its
regard was dismissed and abrogated according to the paper
indicated in this thread. Moreover, the suggestion that
something is scientifically "proven" is a convenient (and likely
point missing and wrong) assumption, a "think cloak" to make you
feel like you understand what's going on... when you don't,
really.

>Many, if
>not most, people do not really understand this difference.

With all respect, sir, it may be that you (_and_ I!)
'understand' the least of all!

>Since
>skeptics

...And if I may break in here to allow that skeptics are not the
issue, are in comparison persons to be revered above all others,
and are welcome company ... honored team members... boon
companions... the most interesting of us, the most knowledgeable
of us, and the ones to instruct us the most! They are not to be
confused with scurrilous skepti_bunkies, ponderous pelicanists,
and insipient CSICOPians, the antagonists regarded in the
aforementioned "Starbaby."

>consider this difference to be quite important, people
>who don't understand this difference have trouble understanding
>skeptics and why they believe the things they do. (Jim's been
>trying to point this out, I think.)

I would say that you are drawing a line where drawing is not
indicated. Already you elevate the aforementioned antagonist to
the undeserved rank of skeptic, and judge, between the lines,
that which _must_ have the greater value! Mr. Lippard merely
grinds the axe interested in moving the argument into
distracting and disingenuous details like "financing" and lofty
CSICOPian "charters." CSICOPian _validity_ itself, is the issue!

>To add further to the confusion, Skeptics (like Christians,
>Communists, and Boy Scouts, and all humans everywhere.) do not
>always live up to their stated ideals.

Well - then we should perhaps expose, examine, and otherwise
investigate where the Pelicanists, Skepti_bunkies, and
CSICOPians have not lived up to theirs. It's _this_ bunch that
was the issue in "Starbaby"... not the innocent fringe that has
evolved only to fill a void that the antagonists create!

>Although I am not
>familiar with the case cited by David Rudiak, on the surface it
>sounds like he may have found such a case of skeptics not living
>up to their own ideals.

Like this is a _new_ rock just turned? C'mon Mr. Huston! You
insert this like a debating ploy straw man that you can knock
down later. My reading of the more balanced in ufology gives
every indication that the point you delineate so grudgingly here
is, and has been, an _ongoing_ problem! "StarBaby" says from its
very inception! You're going to have to do a little better in
this crowd, sir!

>IMHO, although if true this is quite serious and I don't wish to
>minimize that, to me it seems to just emphasize the need to look
>at the process of how one reaches a conclusion using science. In
>any science, mistakes and willfull hoaxes will occur.

...Odd though that we seem to see more press on the 'one' than
on the 'other'!

>The
>Skeptical Inquirer will publish things that are wrong from time
>to time.

ROFL!

>It should not be accepted as "gospel" by anyone,
>although I will state that, IMHO, some people at CSICOP would
>like you to.

I would assess it more as a dominate trait of the breed, sir!

>Much of my grumbling over the years has been based
>in my belief that CSICOP wishes to remain exempt from being the
>target of critical thinking or skepticism.

Lay down with the dogs and get up with their fleas, sir, as I
hope more and more of the abused and betrayed armchair CSICOP
supporters come to discover.

>Then again, in the
>big picture, most people in the world and the country have never
>even heard of CSICOP and have no idea what it is.

But they _do_ know Michael Posner, Michael Shermer, the "Amazing
Randi," and "Penn and Teller" and have every idea who and what
they are! CSICOP can't hide... people 'know' who they are even
if not familiar with the acronym! People know that they're the
lot chuckling up their damp sleeves in schadenfreude regarding
the ufological!

>We all must
>learn to think for ourselves as it is a mistake to let anyone
>else, even or perhaps especially, CSICOP do it for us.

I've tried it and gotten a small trash_bag of serially
insentient E_mail for my trouble. I feel _well_ served! LOL!

>Lest David Rudiak accuse me of neglecting his concern, let me
>say that the reason I have never read the article is because I
>stopped reading the Skeptical Inquirer years ago.

Well - your task is clear, sir. A review if the UpDates
archives where the whole sordid mass is fleshed out is available
to all of us. I'm reasonably certain Dr. Rudiak will point you
in the right direction!

>Lest he
>complain that I am ignoring the issue of this alleged hoax,

Alleged? ROTFL!

>let
>me respectfully say that if someone did a bad job or even a
>willfully immoral job of debunking the claim of a Rosswell
>crashed saucer, this does not make the claimed saucer crash
>proven.

_Forget_ Roswell! That just _one_ of the battles where the
antagonists are made to squeal like Ned Beatty! There's Belgium
in 89 and 90! There's Exeter in 1965! There's Illinois in 2000!
There Rendlesham and Keckburg and Shag Harbor! The list is
virtually endless! Your patent denial and obvious bias are
obvious, sir! "Alleged"? "Claimed Saucer"? ROFL!

>It is important in other ways, however, if this is true.

You betcha Mr. Huston!

>Ultimately, I'd need to see some proof of such a crash before I
>would believe in it.

Well - there is evidence you will accept, and that evidence is
"proof". Then there is evidence you shall _not_ accept, and that
evidence is _not_ proof. Dismissed by the aforementioned
antagonists as a credulous advocate, I am only a genuine
advocate for the huge volume of _extant_ evidence of a quality
that cannot be forever ignored...Verily, the eminence of the
quality anecdotal evidence, compounded with the vetted
photographic evidence, and then added to the documented
historical evidence, gives _every_ indication that a ufological
assertion regarding this phenomena _must_ be more real than
not... ! I'm being _abundantly_ conservative!

Moreover, when the preceding is framed by the serious artistic
evidence, qualified by the available physical evidence, and then
compellingly buttressed by the conclusively personal evidence
(...if you have any, and I do...), I can only be annoyingly
astonished by a continued inexplicable and unsupportable
reluctance ... an unbrave reluctance, I add... to face the
highly strange music that just cannot be _forever_ marginalized!

There's proof _enough_ for someone without an ulterior axe to
grind, sir! I say that with _all_ respect and judging you not!

>(And I like to think I looked into it
>enough to know there is little hard proof although I don't claim
>to be familiar with all the allegations. One good piece of proof
>is worth more than a thousand flimsy allegations.)

Proof you accept, weighed against proof you shall not accept...

>Peter Huston

>(A bit more rambling than Jim Lippard perhaps, but hopefully
>there's something of use in there somewhere.)

I hope you got at least as good as you gave, sir.

For you listening pleasure, Mr. Huston, a little tune I've
composed entitled "Leaving CSICOPia!

http://www.alienview.net/testES45.ram

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

www.AlienView.net

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E_mail for detail.

$450.00 pledged - $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.

What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."

--Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious
scurrilous.










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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 31

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 50

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:09:41 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:54:21 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 8 Number 50



I would like to take this opportunity to wish all readers a
Happy New Year and all the best for the coming year.

John Hayes (UFOINFO)
==========================

Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 8, Number 50
December 31, 2003
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan@aol.com
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


NO WORD FROM BRITISH
MARS PROBE

      "The fate of Britain's first unmanned mission to Mars
was in doubt on Thursday," December 25, 2003, "as the
appointed hour for the Beagle 2 Martian lander to signal
from the planet's surface passed with a disappointing
silence from space."
      "The tiny lander, a saucer only 25 inches (62
centimeters) across was due to open up like a pocket watch
on the Martian surface and issue nine notes to a passing
American Mars Odyssey spacecraft for relay back to Earth."
      "Despite the initial radio silence, the science team
directing the Mars landing project in partnership with the
European Space Agency and its orbital Mars Express
mission" began "preparing for a second attempt to contact"
the lander.
      However, "two more attempts to confirm the survival
of the European Mars lander were unsuccessful on Friday,"
December 26, 2003.
      "'There is no signal from Beagle 2 detected by Mars
Odyssey passing over this evening,' Peter Barrett,
spokesman for the U.S. government's physics and astronomy
research agency said.  Four attempts at hearing a signal
have failed."
      "A powerful radio telescope at the Jodrell Bank
Observatory in Cheshire, England did not detect Beagle's
call sign on Friday, after an attempt late Thursday also
came up empty.  NASA's Mars Odyssey, which has been in
orbit since 2001, picked up nothing Thursday and Friday."
      "'I'm afraid it's a bit disappointing, but it's not
the end of the world,' Colin Pillinger, the chief
scientist who conceived the Beagle 2 mission.  'Please
don't go away from here believing that we've lost the
spacecraft.'"
      "The 100-pound Beagle 2 lander, about the size of an
open umbrella, was designed and built on a shoestring
budget by a team of Mars enthusiasts from Britain's major
universities, working without formal organization or
national financing.   Their initiative and pluck have
captivated a large following."
      "Britain's news media--mainstream and tabloid--have
covered the Mars mission as if it were a galactic soccer
(football in UK--J.T.) match."
      "Scientists remained hopeful that the lander had
survived impact on the surface and would be available to
complete its mission--six months worth of digging and
sniffing Martian rocks and soil for signs of life and the
biochemical environment that could have supported it."
      "The lander is equipped with a five-watt transmitter,
which is enough for broadcasting to the Mars Express"
orbiting overhead.  The orbiter fired retro rockets early
Thursday and successfully entered Mars orbit, scientists
said."
      Beagle 2 separated from the Mars Express "early
Friday," December 19, 2003.
The "piggyback spacecraft" blasted off from Earth on
Monday, June 2, 2003.  "Because the lander has no
propulsion system, Mars Express's trajectory had to be
adjusted to ensure that Beagle 2 would be on course to
enter the Martian atmosphere" with "a 12,500 mile-per-hour
entry" speed.
      Beagle 2 was supposed to land on the red sand deserts
of the Isidis Planitia (plain).  The lander's "key test
involves looking for signs of methane and carbon dioxide--
considered key signifiers of life--released by samples
heated within the lander in the presence of oxygen."
(Editor's Note:  Isidis Planitia is just north of the
Martian equator, at latitude 10 degrees North and
longitude 270 degrees West.)
      "Mars has been notoriously tough on spacecraft.  Of
34 unmanned American, Soviet and Russian missions to Mars
since 1960, two thirds have ended in failure."
      "Only three probes have landed on Mars; the (two)
Viking missions in the 1970s and Pathfinder-Sojourner in
1997."
      "Beagle 2 entered the Martian atmosphere at 2:47 a.m.
Greenwich time on Thursday, December 25, 2003, Christmas
Day.  Mission scientists remained optimistic about the
European Space Agency's first search for signs of life on
Mars.  They said they will continue seeking a signal into
January (2004)."  (See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for
December 26, 2003, "Britain's Beagle 2 Mars probe fails to
emit expected signal," page 4A; the Minneapolis, Minn.
Star-Tribune for December 27, 2003, "Two more attempts
detect nothing from Mars lander," page A5 and USA Today
for December 22, 2003, "Beagle 2 separates from Mars
Express," page 5D; and for December 26, 2003, "Mars
landing may have failed," page 1A.)
(Editor's Comment:  And so, another Mars mission ends in
disaster.  What do you think, readers?  Was Beagle 2 shot
down on entry by the Red Baron of Mars?  Or was it
captured by the Tharks like Pathfinder and Sojourner?)


UFO SEEN NEAR MOREE,
NEW SOUTH WALES

      On Wednesday, December 24, 2003, at 5:19 a.m., Yvette
Doumbos and her husband "were travelling along the Newell
Highway" 10 kilometers (6 miles) north of Moree, New South
Wales, Australia "when I saw some bright lights falling
from the sky," she reported, "My initial reaction was that
a plane was crashing to earth.  My husband and I were both
yelling, 'What on earth is that!?'"
      "Once the lights reached ground level, they slowly
rose up again (maybe 20 feet off the ground--Y.D.)  They
seemed to hover in and out of trees, so we knew it wasn't
a plane.  It seemed to descend up and down in the sky at
great speeds and then vanish and re-appear somewhere else
in the sky."
      The UFO "had three round white lights and blue
flashing ones surrounding the white ones.  I kept yelling
at my husband to stop the car as it was moving so quickly
that I wanted to get a better look.  My husband refused to
stop, saying, 'No way...I don't want to be kidnapped by
aliens!'"
      "I noticed a few other cars had stopped alongside the
road to get a better look at the 'thing.'  I would love to
know if you have any other reportings of this as I was
very skeptical of UFOs but know that what I saw this
morning was very, very weird."
      Moree, N.S.W. is about 300 kilometers (180 miles)
north-northwest of Sydney.  (Email Form Report)


COUPLE SEES A LUMINOUS
UFO IN NEW ZEALAND

      On Thursday, December 25, 2003, at 12:45 a.m., Mrs.
I.W. and her husband "were outside on our patio, having
coffee," in Dunedin, a city in the Otago region of New
Zealand's South Island.  She reported, "It was a clear
night and the stars were clear and bright also.  I spotted
what I thought was a satellite at low orbit and told my
husband to look for it, and he saw it."
      "As it glided closer, we saw it was even lower than a
satellite's usual height (altitude--J.T.) but higher than
aircraft fly.  I then decided that what we were viewing
was the International Space Station.  I had seen the ISS
before and it was lower than satellites."
      "The colour of the object was very bright, white with
a slightly gold tinge and 'large,' at least as large as
Mars was at its brightest this summer (July 2003) and
definitely larger than satellites."
      "We watched it coming on, and my husband reached
inside to turn the light off to eliminate any light source
from within the house.  Then, while we were both looking
up at it above our large trees, and we were preparing to
walk up our pathway to watch it go over the Dunedin city
area, it almost stopped!  Like 'stopped gliding' and was
almost stationary.  Then, at a speed that was hard to
believe, it accelerated upwards, going very fast and
almost vertically upwards, visually from a large bright
object to a pin prick light at such a speed that we
watched it disappear between a star formation, and it was
gone."
      "This was not the ISS we were viewing."
      "What stunned us most was the speed it went upwards
at--totally unbelievable.  I could not comprehend that any
object could move that fast, as did my husband.  We were
both left speechless at what we had viewed.  Stunned was
not the word to describe what we felt, and we both agreed
that had each of us seen it on our own, we would not
believe what we had witnessed.  Have no idea what it was,
but we saw something that we both will never forget.  I
also would like to add that neither of us had been
drinking."
      Dunedin is on the South Island's Pacific coastline,
about 300 kilometers (180 miles) southwest of
Christchurch.  (Email Form Report)
(Editor's Note: Dunedin was also the site of an "airship"
or UFO flap during June and July of 1909.)


FOUR YELLOW UFOs ARE
SPOTTED NEAR PHOENIX

      On Thursday, November 13, 2003, Rick Barker reported,
"I was traveling west on Bell, at the intersection of Bell
and Litchfield Road" in Phoenix, Arizona "at around 7 p.m.
I live in Surprise, Arizona (population 30,848), just
north of Luke Air Force Base and I usually watch the sky
for the occasional fighter jet flying a night-training
mission."
      "At this time, I spotted two round yellow stationary
objects south of the base that appeared to be
approximately 3 to 5 miles (5 to 8 kilometers) distant.
They were similar in appearance to the freeway lights, so
I did not pay too much attention to them until I noticed
that they were much higher in the sky than the street
lights."
      "By the time I arrived home, I noticed that they had
disappeared, and so I stood outside my house for a minute
or two to try to see if I could identify what they might
have been.  At that moment, they reappeared.  The unusual
thing about the objects was the fact that they did not
just 'turn on,' so to speak, but just seemed to expand
from the darkness one at a time."
      "I immediately went into the house and grabbed my
binoculars and my wife to verify what I was seeing.  My
wife observed the objects as well but did not believe that
they were something unusual until they slowly imploded on
themselves again in our full view.  We waited another
minute or two, and they reappeared in the same manner.  It
was unbelievable."
      "By this time, I was able to see them through the
binoculars" and "they appeared to have a black line
through their center which was not totally horizontal but
tilted on a slight angle.  The object also appeared to
have swirling masses of light of every color, each color
appearing simultaneously."
      "At this time, I asked my wife to get our neighbor,
who is a local schoolteacher and who came out to observe
the strange phenomenon and verified it, as well.  We
immediately jumped in my car and headed south in the
direction of the two objects on (Arizona) Highway 303."
      "While (they were) watching, the objects disappeared
and reappeared several more times, and there seemed to be
a correlation between them and the commercial jet traffic
passing over them, which was moving east in the direction
of Sky Harbor Airport."
      "We finally stopped and parked along McDowell Road,
south of the air force base, to watch the objects, which
we now noticed were south of Interstate (Highway) I-10,
which intersects Highway 303, traveling east and west to
California.  Along the way, we noticed several vehicles
pulling off the highway, which we assumed were also
watching the objects.  At this distance, they were so
obvious that we could not imagine anyone who couldn't
notice them if they were looking south!"
      "The objects were quite large and bright yellow in
color.  After watching for another 20 minutes or so, we
noticed two more identical objects appear west of the
first two, one above the other.  Within five minutes of
the appearance of these objects, we witnessed the take-off
of eight F-16 fighter jets, heading south with
afterburners blasting, over our heads.  It was absolutely
unbelievable.  Four jets broke to the east of the objects,
and the other four to the west of them."
      "All four objects immediately disappeared when the
jets approached to within a mile or two of them.  You
could clearly see the jets turning and crossing paths with
each other by their flashing navigation lights.  They
circled for a couple of minutes and then disappeared
somewhere south of the mountain range."
      "When the jets left the area, the original two
objects reappeared."
      "At this time, our neighbor began to get a little
nervous and said we should simply start heading home,
which we did.  We continued to watch along the way and
kept them in view the entire trip back home.  When we
arrived home at 9 p.m.," the trio "noticed that the
objects had vanished and did not return.  We did note that
they were slowly drifting west towards the Palo Verde
nuclear plant.  Of course, as seems to always happen in
these events, none of us had thought to bring a camera, so
we have no photographic proof of our sighting."
      "I"ve been reading your (UFO Roundup) sighting
reports for several weeks now, hoping to confirm the
event, and I was shocked to find the recent report of the
sighting of a creature of some kind in a child's bedroom
at around the time of our sighting."
      "I also noticed the recent reports of the mystery van
in the Phoenix area, so we're all wondering what's going
on around here."  (Email Form Report)
(Editor's Note: For more on the Phoenix alien sighting,
see UFO Roundup, volume 8, number 47 for December 10,
2003, "Blue alien terrifies girl in Phoenix," page 5.)


ORANGE UFO SIGHTED
IN SOUTH FLORIDA

      On Saturday, December 20, 2003, at 3 a.m., Matt P.
reported, "Driving west on U.S. 41 (the Tamiami Trail--
M.P.), I turned left onto Ortiz Boulevard in North Port,
Florida (population 22,797), about 25 miles (40
kilometers) south of Sarasota.  I noticed what looked like
a bright orange flame in the sky, throwing sparks of fire
around.  It had what appeared to be an exhaust trail that
was visible because it was high in the sky, and there was
a slight breeze.  It originally looked like an airplane on
fire, and it was barely moving."
      "I stopped on Ortiz Boulevard to try to catch a
better glimpse.  At the exact moment I stopped, it became
very dull and broke into three different, smaller circular
lights.  These three lights moved about, flying in no
particular formation, staying very close to one another
for about two minutes and then regrouped or reconstituted
to form the bright light I had seen at first.  Just as
quickly as I had originally seen it, it became very bright
and seemed to burn out, leaving nothing but three lights
in the sky to gradually disappear."
      The UFOs "were intense white to orange.  At first, it
appeared to be triangular.  But after the objects broke
up, the remnants were circular.  They were approximately
the same height as a low-flying aircraft, like a Cessna.
Didn't appear to be moving at first, but after the object
broke up, the remnants moved at fairly high speeds around
each other in the same part of the sky."  (Email Form
Report)


SMALL UFO SIGHTED NEAR
GRANTSBURG, WISCONSIN

      "'It went right alongside the highway all the way
from Highway 48" in Grantsburg, Wisconsin (population
1,360) "down to the Bible camp.  Then it crossed over the
highway in front of us and lowered down toward the field
and hovered there about 50 to 100 feet (15 to 30 meters)
above the ground.'"
      "Ted Wistrom is crystal clear about what he and
Heather Berrard saw as they were traveling south on
Highway 87 from Grantsburg at about 5 p.m. last Wednesday
(December 17, 2003).  They vow the aircraft, no more than
20 feet (6 meters) wide or long, was moving down the west
side of the road at about 30 miles per hour (50 kilometers
per hour--J.T.)."
      "The craft was not nearly large enough to carry
people, says Wistrom, but he also says it was dark, so
exact size was hard to tell."
(Editor's Note:  True enough!  At this time of year--the
winter solstice--it's pitch dark in northern Wisconsin by
5 p.m.)
      "Checks with officials in law enforcement and the
(Wisconsin) Department of Natural Resources (DNR)
uncovered nothing to explain what the couple saw."
      "Wistrom says he knows they weren't the only ones to
see it.  He says the car in front of them slowed down,
too, as did the others behind them.  Wistrom said he had
planned to turn east on (County) Highway O, but continued
south on 87 to continue watching the aircraft."
      "It made no sound."
      "He says it wasn't very high in the air.  He could
see what looked like propulsion units, sort of like tubes,
protruding out of the bottom of the craft that were
'tilted towards the ground, like that's what was holding
it up.'  It made no sound, he says."
      "There were four rectangular lights on what appeared
to be the back of the craft, he said.  They spanned the
entire area, with the lights immediately adjacent to each
other, with each one being maybe two to two-and-a-half
feet high (0.6 to 0.8 meters high--J.T.)."
      "While the craft was moving, the lights were all
orange.  When it began to hover over a field near the
Bible camp, he said the center left light turned blue and
the center right one turned white.  The white light began
to blink as it was hovering, he says, and then the craft
disappeared."
      "Wistrom says they can't give an overall description
of the craft because they only saw the underside and
rear."
      "Wistrom says friends had been telling him of seeing
strange air vehicles over the last couple of months and
claim to have seen military-type vehicles at Crex Meadows
before the snow came.  He laughs off the remarks as 'just
kooky stuff,' he says."
      "Now, he says, he thinks 'they're doing some kind of
testing around here.'"
      "DNR employees at Crex Meadows say there haven't been
any unusual vehicles there."
      "After the strange air vehicle disappeared, Wistrom
says he and Berrard headed east when a low-flying plane
flew by at low level.  That plane, he said, had a blue-
and-white light underneath and red lights on the wingtips,
but nothing like the unusual larger rectangular lights on
the strange air vehicle."
      Grantsburg is in northwestern Wisconsin about 70
miles (116 kilometers) south of Duluth, Minnesota.  (See
the Burnett County Sentinel for December 23, 2003, "UFOs
testing in Burnett?"  Many thanks to Jim Hickman for this
newspaper article.)


MYSTERIOUS POWER OUTAGE
DARKENS SAN FRANCISCO

      A massive electrical power blackout "disrupted
traffic, shut down two (BART) transit stations and left a
third of" San Francisco, California "without electricity
on one of the busiest days of the (Christmas) holiday
season."
      "The blackout started just before 6 p.m. Saturday,"
December 20, 2003, "when a fire broke out at a major
Pacific Gas and Electric substation that feeds smaller
neighborhood substations."
      "About 120,000 customers lost power, including parts
of downtown and the Mission, North Beach, Chinatown,
Fillmore, Western Addition, Sunset and Richmond
neighborhoods, PG&E officials said."
      "It was one of the biggest blackouts in the nation
(USA) since Hurricane Isabel in September left millions in
the dark along the Atlantic seaboard and the record
blackout" on August 14, 2003 "that cut power to 50 million
from New York City to the (USA's) Midwest."
      On Sunday, December 21, 2003, "about 24,000 customers
remained without power in the downtown, Chinatown and
Haight-Ashbury districts...but power was expected to be
restored throughout the city by the evening, PG&E
spokesman Jonathan Franks said."
      "PG&E employees were evacuated from the substation
while firefighters put out the blaze, Franks said."
      "After the substation was reopened, PG&E engineers
restored power Saturday night to about half of the
affected customers.  Those customers were plunged back
into darkness, however, when officials discovered the fire
had not been fully extinguished, and the substation had to
be shut down again."
      "The cause of the fire and the power outage was still
being investigated, Franks said."
      "'There's no indication that it was vandalism or
sabotage.  As far as the exact cause, we just don't know
yet,' he said."
      "The power outage forced early closures and
evacuations at theaters, restaurants and shopping centers.
Streetlights stopped working, causing traffic problems
throughout the city."
      "The San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART)
District closed two downtown stations, but trains
continued to run as usual, BART officials said."
      "Emergency response officials said they did not
receive an increase in reported incidents related to the
blackout."  (See USA Today for December 22, 2003, "Utility
works to restore San Francisco power," page 3A.)


CURREY RECRUITS MORE
TOURISTS FOR PELLUCIDAR

      Steve Currey, the Utah-based tour organizer, has
opened a Web site, providing potential tourists with
information about his proposed trip through the Arctic
Ocean aboard a rented nuclear icebreaker.  There Currey
hopes to find the entrance to an Inner World at the
Earth's core.
(Editor's Note: You can check out the original story in
UFO Roundup, volume 8, number 48 for December 17, 2003,
"Mormons in Pellucidar!?," page 1.)
      According to Currey's press release, the purpose of
the proposed 2005 expedition is "to conduct some
scientific observations in the Arctic that is hoped will
resolve once and for all whether the Hollow Earth theory
has any validity."
(Editor's Note: Between 1912 and 1944, Edgar Rice
Burroughs wrote eight science fiction novels about the
Inner World, which he called "Pellucidar.")
      "The most plausible location for a north polar
opening that leads into the interior of the Earth is
located at 84 degrees North latitude and 141 degrees East
longitude," the Web site stated, "Don't miss this chance
to personally visit that paradise within our Earth via the
North Polar Opening and meet the highly advanced, friendly
people who live there.  We are of the opinion that they
are the legendary Lost Tribes of Israel who migrated into
the North Country over 2,500 years ago and literally
became lost to the knowledge of mankind."
      The proposed expedition is geared primarily toward
the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-
Day Saints, also called the Mormons.  According to
Currey's Web site, "The Great High Priest over all the
land of Inner Earth is King David, and sits on the
legitimate throne of David, a direct descendant of David,
who was the founder of the ancient nation of Israel in
Palestine, from which the Ten Lost Tribes migrated to the
North Countries in about 687 B.C."
(Editor's Note:  In Burroughs' novels, the hero is David
Innes, "the Pride of Willimantic, Connecticut," who, with
eccentric scientist Dr. Abner Perry, traveled to
Pellucidar in a subterrene called The Prospector back in
1912.  Curiously, this David gave himself the title of
Emperor of Pellucidar.)
      "The estimated round trip from the hollow earth North
Countries of Inner Earth via the Polar Opening is about 20
days."
      "Expedition members could take an Inner Earth
monorail train to visit the Lost Garden of Eden, located
under America on the highest mountain plateau of the Inner
Continent.  It is also the capital city of Inner Earth,
according to Olaf Jansen."
      Despite criticism from orthodox scientists and other
Mormons, Currey continues to plan for the expedition.
(See Fortean Times No. 179 for February 2004, "The
Hierophant," page 17.)
(Editor's Comment:  If anybody wants to see what a
Princess of Pellucidar looks like, check out the tabloid
Star for December 30, 2003.  There's a whole passel of
them on pages 12 and 13.)


 From the UFO Files...

1903: STRANGE CREATURE
           SEEN IN IOLA, KANSAS

      Tonight is New Year's Eve, the time of Auld Lang
Syne, and, readers, we have a really auld Fortean gem for
you this week.  A "golden nugget" we're sure you'll enjoy,
recently unearthed by that indefatigable Fortean
researcher T. Peter Park.
So, here it is--the actual newspaper article that appeared
one hundred years ago, on November 18, 1903, in the Iola,
Kansas Register.

      Lanyon Smelter Saturday Night Twice

     SCARED NIGHT MEN TO DEATH

      The Thing appeared at Furnace No. 9, Works No. 1--
      Had horns and its head floated in air--Man who saw
      it collapsed in a heap and daylight was awaited
      before night force went home.

      "A ghost appeared last Saturday night (i.e. November
14, 1903--J.T.) in furnace No. 9 at Works No. 1 of the
Lanyon Zinc Company" in Iola, Kansas "and to this day
nobody knows the truth about it."
      "The night force was working at the furnace when the
Thing appeared just about midnight.  When first seen, it
was standing between (furnace) No. 9 and the adjoining
one.  The men who saw it gave a yell and fled.  The other
ones ran to the place to see what was going on, and all
took one look at the Thing and away they went.  The first
man fell down and the others fell over him."
      "Afterward they screwed up their courage and
returned, and it was gone."
      "Little else was talked of for some time.  The Thing
had horns and long hair, great big eyes and an inhuman
body although standing erect like a man.  It was a spirit
or the Devil."
      "Before the excitement had subsided, one of the men
went to a window on the west side of the furnace room and
opened the window.  Merciful heavens!  There it was!  The
man sank in a heap.  Another workman walked over and threw
a chisel at the Thing's head.  It did not dodge, nor run,
but came forwards.  When it disappeared again, it stayed
away.  The night metal drawers and stuffers, although
through with their work at 3 o'clock (a.m.), remained
until daylight before going home."
      "Among the men working that night were Chris.
Klemick, who was overcome (fainted--J.T.); Ed. Mundis,
John Rice and Len Hartley were also on the shift.  The
boys have kept very quiet about the Thing, but they won't
deny that it scared the livers out of them, and they have
a constant fear that it may come back."
      "Whether the apparition is the Evil Spirit or the
Gas, or some man masquerading for the fun of it, the men
neither know nor care.  But they know the Thing--the
inhuman, awful Thing--stood there.  Ghost or Devil or man,
they do not care to renew (its) acquaintance."
      Iola, Kansas (population 6,302) is located at the
intersection of Highways 54 and 169 in Allen County, about
75 miles (125 kilometers) south-southeast of Topeka, the
state capital.
      So, what was the strange creature that appeared in
Iola, Kansas a century ago?
Was it a ghost, as the Iola Register claimed?  Or Bigfoot,
as British authors Janet and Colin Bord speculated in
their 1989 book, Unsolved Mysteries of the Twentieth
Century?  Was it an alien from outer space?  Or a visitor
from another dimension?
      A century later, the Iola mystery endures...  (Many
thanks to T. Peter Park for the original Register article.
See also Unsolved Mysteries of the Twentieth Century by
Janet and Colin Bord, Contemporary Books, Chicago, Ill.
1989, page 366.)

      And that wraps up Volume Eight of UFO Roundup.  We'll
be back next week for the start of a new volume and
another year in hot pursuit of UFO, Fortean and paranormal
news from all over the planet Earth.  To say nothing of
occasional moments of comedy.  After all, 2004 is a
presidential election year here in the USA.  So drop in
again and be sure to read "the paper that goes home-- UFO
Roundup."
      Have a Happy New Year!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2003 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 31

                     Re: Mystery Of Train #1702 - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:23:02 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:57:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Mystery Of Train #1702 - Shell


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 09:09:29 -0500
>Subject: Mystery Of Train #1702

>http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/378/11661_train.html

>Unfortunately, ball lightning is the least studied
>phenomenon today.

I know there's a bit of meaning lost here in the translation,
but I'm still pretty sure that's an incorrect statement any way
you slice it. I'm sure plenty of people are experimenting with
plasma. Besides, the least studied phenomenon is most likely the
one when you're stuck in heavy traffic and you decide to chance
lanes, the lane you move into comes to a standstill, while the
lane you just left zooms foreward. What's up with that?

>It is highly likely to be an enormous energy substance
>which power can be compared with a large electric power
>station; it spontaneously ejects quantum vacuum energy.

That's news to me. Who figured this out? I always figured it was
just an ionized plasma ball that supports itself in the same way
a soap bubble does, with a kind of surface tension. They
supposedly even "pop" like soap bubbles. Who knew they had
anything to do with quantum vacuum energy? Learn something new
every day.











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   Dec > Dec 31

                          Secrecy News -- 12/30/03

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 12:26:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:59:37 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 12/30/03


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2003, Issue No. 112
December 30, 2003


**      FBI INFORMATION SHARING STILL FACES OBSTACLES
**      DOD IG LOOKS BACK AT TERRORISM INFORMATION AWARENESS
**      CLASSIFIED TRASH AT NSA
**      REPORTERS IN AND OUT OF OFFICIAL FAVOR
**      EARTHQUAKE IN IRAN


FBI INFORMATION SHARING STILL FACES OBSTACLES

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has improved its ability to
share information about terrorist threats with other parts of
government but still has major impediments to overcome, a
searching review by the Department of Justice Inspector General
(IG) has found.  These obstacles include technological
challenges, doubts about FBI credibility and the uneven quality
of Bureau information.

"The FBI's fundamental information-sharing problem is the
inability to move classified information... securely outside of
the FBI.  Due to the FBI's [information technology] limitations,
even e-mails cannot be forwarded securely to the CIA.  Instead,
FBI personnel must print a paper version of the e-mail and
provide this to their CIA counterparts," the IG stated in a new
report (p. 13).

Meanwhile, other law enforcement agencies often doubt FBI
assurances that it has shared all the relevant information it
has.

"FBI officials told us that state and local law enforcement
agencies often perceive that the FBI has more information than
it is willing to share," the IG noted.

"As is reasonable, officials from state and local law
enforcement agencies often want to know whether anything in
their jurisdiction is being specifically targeted.  FBI
officials usually do not have any information about specific
targets.  However, FBI officials with whom we spoke said that
state and local law enforcement officials often believe the FBI
is withholding information when told that the FBI does not have
any specific threat information," the IG report said (p. 16).

The FBI has been circulating weekly Intelligence Bulletins to
some 18,000 law enforcement agencies nationwide to provide
current counterterrorism threat information.

"However, the Bulletins are somewhat 'hit and miss' in terms of
providing guidance on what specific actions to take or what
terrorist characteristics to be aware of," the IG report said
(pp. 58-60).

See "The Federal Bureau of Investigation's Efforts to Improve
the Sharing of Intelligence and Other Information," U.S.
Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General, December
2003 (redacted and unclassified version):

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/oig/fbi-info.pdf

With greater information sharing comes more unauthorized
disclosure, the IG report said.

One FBI official told the IG that "the information the FBI
disseminates to the state and local law enforcement community
frequently is seen or heard in the news media nearly immediately
upon distribution" (p. 17).

This was newly demonstrated when the Associated Press reported
on an FBI Intelligence Bulletin issued last week.  The latest
Bulletin warned police to be alert for people carrying almanacs,
suggesting dubiously that terrorists might use the reference
books "to assist with target selection and pre-operational
planning."


DOD IG LOOKS BACK AT TERRORISM INFORMATION AWARENESS

The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) did not
adequately consider the privacy concerns associated with its
controversial Terrorism Information Awareness (TIA) program that
was terminated by Congress earlier this year, the Department of
Defense Inspector General said in a new report.

"DARPA could have better addressed the sensitivity of the
technology to minimize the possibility of any Governmental abuse
of power," the DOD IG said.

DARPA should have allayed such concerns by performing a privacy
impact assessment, the report said, even though such an
assessment was not required by statute.

"DARPA should have performed a privacy impact assessment because
the development of TIA occurred simultaneously with the
transition of TIA technology into the operational environment,"
the IG report said.

In response, DARPA stressed that "the TIA project has not, in
fact, violated privacy policies of the United States," and the
IG did not dispute this.

See "Terrorism Information Awareness Program," Department of
Defense Office of the Inspector General, December 23, 2003:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/igtia1203.pdf

Although TIA was terminated by the 2004 defense appropriations
act, related technologies are being pursued by U.S. defense and
intelligence agencies (see SN, 9/26/03).


CLASSIFIED TRASH AT NSA

The National Security Agency is refusing to provide federal
regulators with information about environmental contamination at
its Fort Meade, MD headquarters, claiming that to do so would
pose a national security risk, the Baltimore Sun reported today.

See "NSA says its toxic waste is classified" by Rona Kobell and
Ariel Sabar, Baltimore Sun, December 30:

http://tinyurl.com/2xxnn

The difficulties of enforcing environmental laws at classified
government facilities were discussed in 1996 testimony from the
General Accounting Office.

See "Environmental Oversight of Classified Federal Research,"
statement of Bernice Steinhardt, GAO before the Senate
Governmental Affairs Committee, March 12, 1996:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/gao.html


REPORTERS IN AND OUT OF OFFICIAL FAVOR

One of the subtler ways of curtailing public access to
government information is to channel public and media inquiries
to public affairs personnel, who will provide an "authorized"
official response, or none at all.

It follows that one of the challenges facing professional
journalists is to cultivate independent sources who can provide
an "unauthorized" perspective on events.  But those journalists
who succeed in doing so can expect to encounter criticism.

Recently, the Department of Defense approached the Washington
Post to complain about one of its Pentagon reporters, Tom Ricks.
 Among the government's reported concerns was that Ricks was
straying too far from official channels.

"The Pentagon's letter of complaint to Post executive editor
Leonard Downie had language charging that Ricks casts his net as
widely as possible and e-mails many people," according to an
article in Washingtonian magazine.

See "Pentagon to Washington Post Reporter Ricks: Get Lost" by
Harry Jaffe, Washingtonian (flagged by Romenesko at
poynter.org):

http://washingtonian.com/inwashington/buzz/tomricks.html

If this kind of official rebuke to Ricks is a badge of honor,
official commendation of particular journalists can be just as
significant in a different way.

The late Michael Kelly, who was killed this year while reporting
in Iraq, was singled out for unusually lavish praise by Bush
Administration officials.

"I knew Michael Kelly and greatly admired his work," Vice
President Dick Cheney told the American Society of Newspaper
Editors in April.  "He was a superb writer and as a reporter and
editor he upheld the highest standards of your profession."

According to President Bush, who has said he does regularly read
newspapers, Kelly was "one of the most accomplished columnists
and editors in America."

But Kelly, though beloved and admired by his friends and
colleagues, was not an admirable journalist.  As a New Republic
editor and Washington Post op-ed writer, he was careless with
facts, malicious towards ideological opponents, and intolerant
of criticism.

A critical view of Kelly was presented by the ferociously
independent Daily Howler here:

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh040703.shtml


EARTHQUAKE IN IRAN

The devastation of the earthquake that leveled much of the city
of Bam, Iran on December 26 is captured in a 1 meter resolution
commercial satellite image taken one day later and released by
Space Imaging, Inc.  See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/bam_quake.htm

The magnitude of destruction has elicited international support
that transcends the usual political and religious divides.
Donations to relief efforts can be made through the Iranian
Muslim Association of North America (www.iman.org), the American
Jewish World Service (www.ajws.org), and others.


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request@lists.fas.org
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2003 >
   Dec > Dec 31

                   Re: Mystery Of Train #1702 - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <editor@perceptions.couk.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:54:58 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 09:29:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Mystery Of Train #1702 - Dickenson


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 09:09:29 -0500
>Subject: Mystery Of Train #1702

>http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/378/11661_train.html

<snip>

>extremely surprised to see some vibrating object looking
>like an upturned basin, the shining ball followed the
>vibrating object and only after them the train appeared at
>a speed of 60 km per hour.

<snip>

Hello,

That "Disc followed by a Ball" sounds like a version of of the
big one seen - by up to 200,000 witnesses - over Tananarive
City, (French) Madagascar in 1954.

http://www.chez.com/lesovnis/htm/tana54.htm

>August 16, 1954, an event stupefied tens of thousands of
>witnesses at Tananarive, Madagascar.

http://www.perceptions.couk.com/uef/tanan.txt


BTW - for Tim Shell, don't think mainstream science has got even
near creating real "ball lightning phenomena" to study them. The
real thing seems to have very weird ability to interact with
physical objects (ie burning or even exploding some things),
while passing through other solid objects _without_ interaction
- like walls, aircraft shells, doors, windows etc.

What mainstream science _has_ done is make (very small,
temporary) plasma balls, but it seems that huge amounts of
energy are needed to create only a tiny unstable effect in the
lab, which might not be any relative of the real beast.

best regards

Ray Dickenson

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
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real mail is CC'd edfile@perceptions.couk.com
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                     Re: Mystery Of Train #1702 - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell@vcmails.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 08:27:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:40:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Mystery Of Train #1702 - Shell


>From: Ray Dickenson <editor@perceptions.couk.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:54:58 +0000
>Subject: Mystery Of Train #1702

>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
>>Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 09:09:29 -0500
>>Subject: Mystery Of Train #1702

>BTW - for Tim Shell, don't think mainstream science has got even
>near creating real "ball lightning phenomena" to study them.

I'm just assuming that like most things having to do with high
energy and power, there is a well-funded US government team
studying it somewhere in secret. I understand I could be
completely wrong.

>The real thing seems to have very weird ability to interact with
>physical objects (ie burning or even exploding some things),
>while passing through other solid objects _without_ interaction -
>like walls, aircraft shells, doors, windows etc.

I've read that. Sorta like Buckaroo Banzai (moving through solid
objects by somehow energizing your own particles so they don't
interact with the normal particles of the thing you're moving
through). It's certainly curious.

>What mainstream science _has_ done is make (very small,
>temporary) plasma balls, but it seems that huge amounts of energy
>are needed to create only a tiny unstable effect in the lab,
>which might not be any relative of the real beast.

Weren't there some sketchy reports of Nikola Tesla being able to
create and manipulate plasma balls in his Colorado Springs
facility in the late 1880's?

In either case, I haven't read anything that conclusively links
ball lightning and plasma bubbles with zero-point energy. Of
course, I haven't read everything.