UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Jul 2004

  Jul 1:

   Haggard Communes With UFO Enthusiasts - Frank Warren [48]
   CCCRN News: First Canadian Crop Formation of 2004 - Paul Anderson [34]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 26 - John Hayes [288]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Sparks - Brad Sparks [36]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Bruce Maccabee [17]
   Re: Big Black Wrap-Around Eyes? - Shell - Tim Shell [7]
   Re: Bob Shell's Side Of The Story - Sandow - Greg Sandow [22]
   Black Vault Adds 22,000+ Declassified Government - John Greenewald, Jr.
   [23]
   Letters Under Our Door - Alfred Lehmberg [200]
   Secrecy News -- 06/30/04 2004 - Steven Aftergood [154]
   Filer's Files #28 - 2004 - George A. Filer [592]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - John Harney [34]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Kelly Freeman [22]
   Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged - GT McCoy [14]
   UFO Over Durban Captured On Video - UFO UpDates - Toronto [48]
   Mini-Men And Uncle Sam - Terry W. Colvin [113]
   UFOparanormal.com Updated - 06-30-04 - Joe McGonagle [6]
   Tunguska Meteor Impact Anniversary - Louise Lowry [60]
   UFO Over Punta Arenas Chile - Scott Corrales [40]
   Chile's CEFAA Studies UFO Sightings - Scott Corrales [73]
   UFOs Reported in Llay-Llay Chile - Scott Corrales [34]
   More UFOs Over Punta Arenas Chile - Scott Corrales [52]
   Home Video Captures Strange Light in Penalolen - Scott Corrales [18]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller - Stuart Miller [8]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Steven Kaeser [16]
   Reporting On The Mexican Military - Capt. Alejandro Franz [79]

  Jul 2:

   Tourist Destination For Ufologists? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [7]
   Re: Alleged 'J-Rod' Photo? - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [7]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Cathy Reason [50]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall - Richard Hall [14]
   CBBC Interview - Nick Pope [11]
   Devil's Hole Amargosa Valley Nevada - Teri Hayes [28]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Jim Speiser [26]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Michael Bilodeau
   [74]
   Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto - Capt. Alejandro Franz [183]
   UFO Sightings Increasing Worldwide - Frank Warren [24]
   Re: Tourist Destination For Ufologists? - Groff - Terry Groff [9]
   UFOs Reported in Llay-Llay Chile - Guenther - Daniel Guenther [7]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [55]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Will Bueche [42]
   Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto - - Bruce Maccabee [32]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Cathy Reason [28]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Greg Sandow [20]
   Re: Reporting On The Mexican Military - Velez - John Velez [18]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller - Stuart Miller [15]
   Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged - Jim Speiser [4]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Will Bueche [15]
   Secrecy News -- 07/02/04 - Steven Aftergood [80]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Sandow - Greg Sandow [11]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Jim Speiser [47]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Jim Speiser [31]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Colm Kelleher [141]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Greg Boone [74]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall - Richard Hall [27]

  Jul 3:

   Forteanism And Experience Anomalies - Terry W. Colvin [394]
   Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged - Alfred Lehmberg
   [19]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - White - Eleanor White [6]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - White - Eleanor White [14]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hatch - Larry Hatch [10]
   Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station - Kenny Young [8]
   Sharon Larkin Response From Chris Parr - Joe McGonagle [61]
   UFO Fest In Roswell - Frank Warren [11]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall - Richard Hall [5]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall - Richard Hall [18]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [17]
   Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged - Jim Speiser [3]
   Re: Sharon Larkin Response From Chris Parr - Pope - Nick Pope [40]
   Re: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station - Ray Stanford [20]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [15]
   Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged - Alfred Lehmberg
   [25]
   Re: Sixto Paz Wells - Pope - Nick Pope [22]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller - Stuart Miller [35]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - King - Kyle King [48]

  Jul 4:

   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [16]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall - Richard Hall [26]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - White - Eleanor White [34]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - White - Eleanor White [11]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - White - Eleanor White [20]
   Re: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station - Kenny Young [25]
   Re: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station - Larry Hatch [15]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Brock - Rod Brock [57]
   Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto - Hebert - Amy Hebert [55]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall - Richard Hall [9]
   Devil's Hole Nevada - Teri Hayes [12]
   Re: Sixto Paz Wells - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd [47]
   Re: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station - Ray Stanford [4]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller - Stuart Miller [33]

  Jul 5:

   Re: Devil's Hole Nevada - Rosati - Dante Rosati [7]
   Wendy Connors Comes Out Of The Cave - Wendy Connors [39]
   Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto - - Bruce Maccabee [7]
   Re: Sixto Paz Wells - Sanchez-Ocejo - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [5]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller - Stuart Miller [24]
   Changes At The WHY? Files - Geoffrey Richardson [13]
   On Tonight: UFO Files - UFO Hot Spots - Louise Lowry [15]
   Latest From The Pro From Dover - Alfred Lehmberg [35]
   UFO "Only Venus" - Frank Warren [38]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Ledger - Don Ledger [11]
   Conscious Abductees Question - Greg Boone [9]

  Jul 6:

   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - Frank Warren [26]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Frank Warren [26]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [31]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Frank Warren [23]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [20]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Boone - Greg Boone [15]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - King - Kyle King [14]
   Mexican Air Force's Chief Removed - Capt. Alejandro Franz [58]
   Re: Devil's Hole Nevada - King - Kyle King [4]
   Morehead "Screaming Woman" Video Online - Kenny Young [14]
   Re: Conscious Abductees Question - Benson - Tom Benson [16]
   Re: Conscious Abductees Question - Denzler - Brenda Denzler [22]
   Re: Changes At The WHY? Files - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [8]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - King - Kyle King [37]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Brenda Denzler [6]
   150-200 People See UFO in Ticul Mexico - Scott Corrales [23]
   Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto - Franz - Capt. Alejandro
   Franz [68]
   Mexican Air Force Chief Removal Official - Capt. Alejandro Franz [54]
   UFOs Over Yucatan Peninsula - Scott Corrales [88]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [21]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [25]
   Re: Aliens Bombard Bush With Invisible Beams - - Frank Warren [14]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall - Richard Hall [6]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Clark - Jerome Clark [19]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Ledger - Don Ledger [24]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Greg Boone [17]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Stanford - Ray Stanford [143]
   Re: Devil's Hole Nevada - Stanford - Ray Stanford [14]
   UFO Review Issue 3 - Stuart Miller [17]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - John Harney [18]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Sparks - Brad Sparks [44]
   Re: Crop Circle Article - Pope - Nick Pope [13]
   Toutatis - Nick Pope [26]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 27 - John Hayes [384]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller - Stuart Miller [18]
   Re: Mexican Air Force's Chief Removed - Velez - John Velez [75]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - King - Kyle King [25]
   Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto - Sparks - Brad Sparks [40]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Richard Hall [23]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall - Richard Hall [13]

  Jul 7:

   Re: Toutatis - Boone - Greg Boone [13]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Nick Pope [25]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - King - Kyle King [24]
   Re: Changes At The WHY? Files - Richardson - Geoffrey Richardson [10]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Brenda Denzler [8]
   Re: Aliens Bombard Bush With Invisible Beams - - Colin Stevenson [13]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Ray Stanford [15]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Will Bueche [51]
   Re: Toutatis - Groff - Terry Groff [6]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Cathy Reason [49]
   Re: Tom, Dick & Kerry - Frank Warren [32]
   Aliens Again - Frank Warren [39]
   Unsolved Mysteries - Vol 1: UFOs - Frank Warren [23]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Greg Boone [80]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Don Ledger [44]

  Jul 8:

   Filers Files #29 - 2004 - George A. Filer [469]
   New Varginha Case Revelations - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [124]
   Re: Toutatis - King - Kyle King [15]
   Secrecy News -- 07-07-04 - Steven Aftergood [165]
   Chilean Peasant Attacked By Unknown Animals - Scott Corrales [81]
   UFO Sightings '03 Video Report - Kenny Young [16]
   Re: Toutatis - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [37]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Nick Pope [16]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Bruce Maccabee [5]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Michael Bilodeau
   [43]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Sparks - Brad Sparks [35]
   John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO Connection - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [48]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Mathieu - Mathieu - Paris [57]
   Creatures With No Business Here! - Geoffrey Richardson [13]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [10]

  Jul 9:

   Cerro Chilean Astrophotographer Topples Myths - Scott Corrales [72]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Richardson - Geoffrey Richardson
   [3]
   Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday - Frank Warren [19]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - King - Kyle King [49]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Boone - Greg Boone [11]
   Does NASA Publish Inverted Data? - Colin Stevenson [11]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [33]
   Re: Toutatis - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [18]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Ray Stanford [9]
   Re: John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO - Brad Sparks [38]
   Re: John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO - Ed Gehrman [7]
   Secrecy News -- 07/08/04 - Steven Aftergood [146]
   Re: Secrecy News -- 07-07-04 - King - Kyle King [20]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Sparks - Brad Sparks [68]
   Fleet Of Daytime UFOs Video Taped - Barry Taylor [43]
   UFO "Accident" Claim By Fireman - Video Report - Kenny Young [17]
   Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto - Hebert - Amy Hebert [13]
   Stunning Images From Saturn Probe - Diana Cammack [47]

  Jul 10:

   Re: Tom, Dick & Kerry - Grass - Robert Grass [8]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [33]
   Re: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday - Terry Groff [6]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Groff - Terry Groff [25]
   Re: Does NASA Publish Inverted Data? - Groff - Terry Groff [4]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Ledger - Don Ledger [8]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Greg Boone [95]
   Re: Toutatis - Miller - Stuart Miller [7]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [102]
   Re: Fleet Of Daytime UFOs Video Taped - King - Kyle King [43]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - King - Kyle King [42]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - King - Kyle King [8]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - John Rimmer [9]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Eleanor White [11]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Hatch - Larry Hatch [6]
   Disclosure Australia Announcement 15 - Diane Harrison [23]
   U.S. TV Alert - Fiction Series - Terry W. Colvin [11]
   Re: John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO - Ray Stanford [4]
   Re: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday - Robert Gates [19]
   Re: Daytime UFOs Video Taped - Taylor - Barry Taylor [13]
   Australian UFO Conference Summary - Sheryl Gottschall [4]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Hatch - Larry Hatch [10]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Cathy Reason [44]
   Hundreds Witness Large UFO Over Argentina - Scott Corrales [50]
   Re: Does NASA Publish Inverted Data? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [16]

  Jul 11:

   STARGATE Declassified Government Documents - Todd Lemire [16]
   Re: Conscious Abductees Question - Lemire - Todd Lemire [17]
   Re: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday - Larry Hatch [16]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Kelly Freeman [27]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Hatch - Larry Hatch [19]
   Re: Tom, Dick & Kerry - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [13]
   Re: Tom, Dick & Kerry - Clark - Jerome Clark [5]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Boone - Greg Boone [13]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [43]
   List Off-Line As Of 18:00 Eastern Tonight - UFO UpDates - Toronto [20]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Boone - Greg Boone [12]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Groff - Terry Groff [23]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Groff - Terry Groff [9]
   Re: U.S. TV Alert Fiction Series - Terry W. Colvin [12]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [13]
   Re: Venus Footage - Lemire - Todd Lemire [13]
   Video Report: Y2K Encounters - Kenny Young [14]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Nick Pope [15]
   Re: Daytime UFOs Video Taped - King - Kyle King [17]
   Re: Toutatis - Pope - Nick Pope [30]
   Re: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday - Kyle King [27]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - King - Kyle King [6]
   Strange 'Omega' Washington D.C. Sky! - Ray Stanford [157]
   UFO Video Could Be Key In Enthusiast's Career - Terry Groff [139]
   Re: UFO "Accident" Claim By Fireman - Boone - Greg Boone [31]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Frank Warren [48]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Chace - David Chace [12]
   Origin Of The Term 'Grays'? - David Chace [22]
   Mystery Of Chilean 'Winged Dogs' Increases - Scott Corrales [80]
   Re: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents - - Royce J. Myers III
   [7]
   Re: Does NASA Publish Inverted Data? - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [26]
   Re: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents - - Greg Boone [6]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista
   UFO [30]
   Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Groff - Terry Groff [14]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [32]
   Re: reatures With No Business Here! - Wendy Connors [69]
   Wendy Conners On SDI Last Night - John Velez [44]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - King - Kyle King [9]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Kyle King [21]

  Jul 18:

   Who Was Laurance Rockefeller? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [459]
   Re: Wendy Conners On SDI Last Night - Connors - Wendy Connors [27]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Will Bueche [27]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Hatch - Larry Hatch [28]
   Re: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents - - Todd Lemire [5]
   Re: Daytime UFOs Video Taped - Taylor - Barry Taylor [24]
   Re: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents - - Todd Lemire [6]
   Secrecy News -- 07/12/04 - Steven Aftergood [179]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - John Rimmer [46]

  Jul 19:

   Biological Hot Spots On Mars? - Terry W. Colvin [26]
   Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe? - Terry W. Colvin
   [43]
   UFOs Reported in Gobernador Ugarte Argentina - Scott Corrales [95]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 28 - John Hayes [468]
   Roswell Dig Finds Nothing - Loren Coleman [22]
   Secrecy News -- 07/14/04 - Steven Aftergood [132]
   Mystery Of The Maize - Louise Lowry [79]
   Video Of Gobernador Ugarte Argentina UFO - Scott Corrales [6]
   NARCAP: Aviation Safety In US - Terry W. Colvin [27]
   Secrecy News -- 07/16/04 - Steven Aftergood [101]
   My July 15 UFO Anniversary - Terry W. Colvin [68]
   Fighting Fear And Conspiracy Theories On Moonlit - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [82]
   Revelations Of Alien Capture At Brazillian Congress - A. J. Gevaerd -
   Brazilian UFO Magazine [68]
   Jeeves Dumbed Down Bigtime - Larry Hatch [39]
   UK UFO Conferemce October 9/10 2004 - Philip Mantle [20]
   Report on Restoration of Parque Forestal Image - Scott Corrales [186]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Kyle King [26]
   Two New 3-Color UFO Maps - Larry Hatch [20]
   UK Big Brother Reality Show Discusses Sightings - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [49]
   Aliens Ontology And Metaphor - Mac Tonnies [64]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - John Velez [14]
   Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The - Alfred Lehmberg [57]
   Re: Jeeves Dumbed Down Bigtime - Groff - Terry Groff [5]
   Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The - Kyle King [26]
   Re: Fighting Fear & Conspiracy Theories On Moonlit - John Velez [9]
   CCCRN News: Formation Report #3 - Essex County ON - Paul Anderson [54]
   Secrecy News -- 07/19/04 - Steven Aftergood [158]
   Paranormal Encounters Group UK - Philip Mantle [15]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [25]
   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Nick Pope [21]
   Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The - Nick Balaskas [86]
   Re: Origin Of The Term 'Grays'? - Allan - Christopher Allan [15]

  Jul 20:

   Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory - - Nick Pope [16]
   Re: NARCAP: Aviation Safety In US - McCoy - GT McCoy [10]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Sparks - Brad Sparks [85]
   Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The - Colin Stevenson [13]
   UFO Sighted Over Lakeville? - Frank Warren [160]
   Re: NARCAP: Aviation Safety In US - Ledger - Don Ledger [14]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista
   UFO [49]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - King - Kyle King [14]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 29 - John Hayes [757]
   Re: Origin Of The Term 'Grays'? - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [11]
   Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The - Larry Hatch [11]
   Shostak Friedman Debate - Stanton Friedman [9]

  Jul 21:

   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Sparks - Brad Sparks [34]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Sparks - Brad Sparks [5]
   US Panel Backs Space Budget Cut - Diana Cammack [38]
   Re: Shostak Friedman Debate - Groff - Terry Groff [4]
   Alien Mannequin Abducted From Roswell Attraction - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [54]
   Man Remembers 1949 Ufo Sighting - UFO UpDates - Toronto [59]
   Professor Exposes The Aliens Among Us - UFO UpDates - Toronto [83]
   Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The - Colin Stevenson [32]
   Two More 3-Color UFO Maps - - Larry Hatch [15]
   Re: Alien Mannequin Abducted From Roswell - Colin Stevenson [4]
   Re: Shostak Friedman Debate - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [33]
   Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The - Larry Hatch [38]
   17 Minute UFO Video From Comodoro Rivadavia - Scott Corrales [36]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista
   UFO [8]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista
   UFO [18]
   The San Diego Comic Convention This Weekend - Greg Boone [15]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [76]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [6]
   Secrecy News -- 07/21/04 - Steven Aftergood [158]
   Filers Files #31 -- 2004 - George A. Filer [571]
   CCCRN News: Formation Report #4 - Prince George BC - Paul Anderson [38]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Stanford - Ray Stanford [108]
   Re: The San Diego Comic Convention This Weekend - - Don Ledger [3]
   Feeling Is Believing? - Will Bueche [159]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista
   UFO [7]

  Jul 22:

   Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Greg Boone [60]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [104]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Boone - Greg Boone [5]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Denzler - Brenda Denzler [8]
   Re: The San Diego Comic Convention This Weekend - - GT McCoy [9]
   Pilot To The Paranormal - Louise Lowry [150]
   US Aircraft-Carrier Crew See UFOs? - Roy Hale [5]
   FSR Case Histories Issues 1 - 18 - Roy Hale [9]
   Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The - Brett Holman [53]
   Re: Are You Nuts? UK Perspective - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [22]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [43]

  Jul 23:

   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Connors - Wendy Connors [37]
   Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The - Alfred Lehmberg [19]
   Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Stockstill - Bill Stockstill
   [32]
   Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The - Kyle King [9]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Sparks - Brad Sparks [3]
   Re: Are You Nuts? UK Perspective - King - Kyle King [12]
   Secrecy News -- 07/22/04 - Steven Aftergood [86]
   Filer's 'Research Institute'? - Chris Pittman [10]
   Friedman/Shostak Debate - Alfred Lehmberg [109]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 29 - Elliott - John Elliott [3]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Stanford - Ray Stanford [246]
   Two New Eastern North American UFO Maps - Larry Hatch [18]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King [38]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista
   UFO [114]
   The Mothman Death List - Loren Coleman [13]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [4]
   'Hoax-Busting' Science Center Expands - Steve Wilson Sr. [70]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone - Greg Boone [36]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Stanford - Ray Stanford [20]
   UFO Over Rojas Buenos Aires Province - Scott Corrales [39]
   Re: Origin Of The Term 'Grays'? - Allan - Christopher Allan [16]
   Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [11]
   Kal Korff MSN Chat Sept '97 On Billy Meier - Bill Stockstill [1221]
   Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Dante Rosati [8]
   Re: 'Hoax-Busting' Science Center Expands - Myers - Royce J. Myers III
   [13]
   Re: Filer's 'Research Institute'? - Stanford - Ray Stanford [20]
   Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - White - Eleanor White [35]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - White - Eleanor White [9]
   UFO Believer To Visit Library - UFO UpDates - Toronto [25]
   Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Denzler - Brenda Denzler [9]
   Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Shell - Tim Shell [1]
   Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Shell - Tim Shell [4]
   Re: Filer's 'Research Institute'? - Filer - George A. Filer [11]
   Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Hall - Richard Hall [6]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Rosati - Dante Rosati [14]

  Jul 24:

   Alien Behavior In St. Stephen Hayfields - UFO UpDates - Toronto [40]
   Accused Shooter Saw UFO - UFO UpDates - Toronto [92]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King [26]
   Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Stanford - Ray Stanford [3]
   Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Stockstill - Bill Stockstill
   [19]
   Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - King - Kyle King [5]
   Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Stanford - Ray Stanford [62]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Fleming - Lan Fleming [21]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate [was: - Kyle King [7]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Connors - Wendy Connors [13]
   Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Stanford - Ray Stanford [9]
   Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Denzler - Brenda Denzler [15]
   High-Altitude Light Show In Focus - UFO UpDates - Toronto [58]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [52]
   Faded Discs Audio Project - Wendy Connors [20]
   Unsubscribe - GT McCoy [7]
   Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Clark - Jerome Clark [33]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Hall - Richard Hall [19]
   A Bentwaters Afternoon Tour With Larry Warren - Max Burns [34]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks - Brad Sparks [26]
   Re: Faded Discs Audio Project [was: Creatures - Ray Stanford [12]

  Jul 25:

   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark - Jerome Clark [19]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Bilodeau - Michael Bilodeau [25]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone - Greg Boone [63]
   Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - White - Eleanor White [44]
   Re: Kal Korff MSN Chat Sept '97 On Billy Meier - - Greg Boone [36]
   Press Release - Paradigm Research Group 07-26-04 - Stephen Bassett
   [197]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King [35]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King [16]
   The Fellowship Of 'The Rings' - Terry Groff [200]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Fleming - Lan Fleming [50]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King [42]
   Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Stockstill - Bill Stockstill
   [16]
   Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Mancusi - Bruno Mancusi [4]
   Shostak: ET First Contact "Within 20 Years" - Stanton Friedman [79]
   UFO Research Site Video Clip Index - Kenny Young [30]
   Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Donald Ratsch [93]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Warren - Frank Warren [27]
   Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution - Lan Fleming [59]

  Jul 26:

   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Fleming - Lan Fleming [22]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Hall - Richard Hall [15]
   Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Denzler - Brenda Denzler [3]
   Close-Up Photos - Dante Rosati [31]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Fleming - Lan Fleming [34]
   Re: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution - - John Scheldroup [17]
   Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Chapman - Mary Chapman [65]
   Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Stanford - Ray Stanford [7]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [70]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks - Brad Sparks [171]
   Re: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution - Weber - Bill Weber [9]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks - Brad Sparks [17]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks - Brad Sparks [50]
   Re: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution - Chace - David Chace [53]
   Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Connors - Wendy Connors [7]
   Varginha Again - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [66]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Hale - Roy Hale [19]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Sanchez-Ocejo - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [8]
   Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Alfred Webre [122]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell - Tim Shell [18]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark - Jerome Clark [56]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [12]

  Jul 27:

   Re: Varginha Again - Stanford - Ray Stanford [19]
   Charles Fort: Godfather of Postmodern Relativism - Terry W. Colvin [72]
   UFO Sighting Reports Over Military Bases - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO [19]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King [55]
   Re: Press Release - Paradigm Research Group - Christopher Allan [5]
   Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Boone - Greg Boone [68]
   Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Boone - Greg Boone [23]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks - Brad Sparks [136]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone - Greg Boone [42]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Praestegaard - Soren Praestegaard [19]
   Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [50]
   Re: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution - - Ray Stanford [15]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Ledger - Don Ledger [4]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [54]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Ledger - Don Ledger [6]
   New Additions To Return To Magonia Project Site - Rod Brock [25]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Ray Stanford [22]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Shell - Tim Shell [3]
   Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [15]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Hall - Richard Hall [4]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone - Greg Boone [30]
   Re: Press Release - Paradigm Research Group - Alfred Lehmberg [26]
   NARCAP Statement On Mexican Airforce Case - Joe McGonagle [45]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [29]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Ledger - Don Ledger [21]
   Re: Varginha Again - Stanford - Ray Stanford [12]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [18]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - John Hayes [217]
   Re: NARCAP Statement On Mexican Airforce Case - - John Velez [33]
   Estill Springs' Girls Spot UFO - Terry Groff [62]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell - Tim Shell [20]
   Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [24]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [27]

  Jul 28:

   Re: Close-Up Photos - Hale - Roy Hale [22]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Brock - Rod Brock [19]
   Re: Varginha Again - Hall - Richard Hall [8]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Sparks - Brad Sparks [5]
   Re: Charles Fort: Godfather of Postmodern - Mac Tonnies [12]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Boone - Greg Boone [34]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks - Brad Sparks [76]
   Scientific Survey Of Hessdalen Phenomenon - Terry W. Colvin [42]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Ledger - Don Ledger [4]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks - Brad Sparks [33]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Ray Stanford [221]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King [19]
   Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Gates - Robert Gates [48]
   UFOs Hubble And The Age Of The Universe - Robert Gates [69]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - - Colin Stevenson [10]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedma - Stanton Friedman [20]

  Jul 30:

   Out Of The Blue DVD Release - James Fox [26]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [6]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Rosati - Dante Rosati [44]
   Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Stanford - Ray Stanford [74]
   Re: Varginha Again - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [21]
   Re: Estill Springs' Girls Spot UFO - Stanford - Ray Stanford [9]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Warren - Frank Warren [22]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [18]
   Secrecy News -- 07/28/04 - Steven Aftergood [187]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King [15]
   Detecting UFOs Through The Use Of 'Passive' Radar - Peter B. Davenport
   - National UFO Reporting Center [33]
   Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees - Greg Boone [8]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - King - Kyle King [9]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - King - Kyle King [7]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Boone - Greg Boone [73]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone - Greg Boone [16]
   Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - King - Kyle King [46]
   Dr. Van Allen Speaks On Space Flight - Greg Boone [5]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks - Brad Sparks [88]
   HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   [405]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks - Brad Sparks [113]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks - Brad Sparks [28]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Sparks - Brad Sparks [25]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [21]
   Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [25]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks - Brad Sparks [150]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Ray Stanford [294]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [33]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [14]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Olmos - Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos [17]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Olmos - Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos [9]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - Stanford - Ray Stanford [48]
   Congrats To UFO Magazine & Platinum Studios - Boone - Greg Boone [6]
   Follow Up On Origin Of Term 'Grays' - David Chace [49]
   Re: Varginha Again - Hall - Richard Hall [16]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Richard Hall [12]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Hall - Richard Hall [11]
   Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Shell - Tim Shell [6]
   Team To Study Tunguska To Prove It Was UFO - Greg Boone [10]
   Secrecy News -- 07/30/04 - Steven Aftergood [138]
   CCCRN News: Formation Report #5 - Ashgrove, - Paul Anderson [31]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King [19]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark - Jerome Clark [77]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King [29]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - King - Kyle King [29]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Greg Sandow [13]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Albrektson - Erik Albrektson [39]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Ray Stanford [14]
   Re: Team To Study Tunguska To Prove It Was UFO - - Ray Stanford [11]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Jeff Westover [34]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Hall - Richard Hall [6]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [7]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - White - Eleanor White [17]
   Re: Question About Artists And - John Rimmer [7]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Chapman - Mary Chapman [9]

  Jul 31:

   Re: Close-Up Photos - Ledger - Don Ledger [4]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Don Ledger [5]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Race - Friedman - Stanton Friedman
   [40]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell - Tim Shell [7]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - King - Kyle King [21]
   Re: Follow Up On Origin Of Term 'Grays' - Friedman - Stanton Friedman
   [12]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Kyle King [27]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Brock - Rod Brock [127]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Kyle King [12]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Richard Hall [12]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King [23]
   Re: Team To Study Tunguska To Prove It Was UFO - - Rod Brock [37]
   Re: Secrecy News -- 07/28/04 - King - Kyle King [5]
   The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Roy Hale [5]
   Re: Cose-Up Photos - Hale - Roy Hale [5]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone - Greg Boone [29]
   Re: Detecting UFOs Through The Use Of 'Passive' - Kyle King [17]
   Return to Magonia Project Website Updated - Rod Brock [17]
   Re: Apollo 16 Film - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [29]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [36]
   Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Ratsch - Donald Ratsch [15]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Webre - Alfred Webre [58]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks - Brad Sparks [19]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Sparks - Brad Sparks [14]
   Re: Congrats To UFO Magazine & Platinum Studios - - Colin Stevenson [5]
   Any Help For S.E.F.I.? - Ray Dickenson [24]
   Re: Varginha Again - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [20]
   Re: Varginha Again - Hatch - Larry Hatch [37]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Allan - Christopher Allan [81]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks - Brad Sparks [76]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks - Brad Sparks [3]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks - Brad Sparks [3]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Race - King - Kyle King [36]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Greg Boone [14]
   Re: Secrecy News -- 07/28/04 - Sparks - Brad Sparks [10]
   Re: Apollo 16 Film - King - Kyle King [6]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks - Brad Sparks [14]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Sparks - Brad Sparks [25]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks - Brad Sparks [8]
   Filer's Files #32 - 2004 - UFO UpDates - Toronto [569]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedmen - Stanton Friedman [15]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - - Stanton Friedman [13]
   Re: Return to Magonia Project Website Updated - - Daniel Guenther [4]
   Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Guenther - Daniel Guenther [9]
   Re: Varginha Again - Hall - Richard Hall [9]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell - Tim Shell [11]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark - Jerome Clark [81]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 1

              CCCRN News: First Canadian Crop Formation of 2004

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:39:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 08:34:29 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: First Canadian Crop Formation of 2004




CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

June 29, 2004

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


FIRST CANADIAN CROP FORMATION OF 2004

The first reported formation for this year is at Erbs Cove, New
Brunswick, a small simple ring in wild pasture grass.

Discovered the morning of June 24 by a couple walking their dog
in a rural farming area, the ring is approximately 4.5 metres
(15 feet) diameter by 1.2 metres (4 feet) wide. Although rough
in appearance, the grass is flattened in a generally clockwise
direction, and starting to stand back up again. On top of a
small hill, in grass about two feet tall. No tracks initially
seen. The field is vacant pasture land that is hayed each year.
Initial ground photos are posted on the CCCRN web site.

A modest but interesting formation, in a province where
reports have been very rare over the years.

http://www.cccrn.ca

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest
news and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada,
as well as other information on CCCRN-related projects and
events, sent free to your e-mail

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News in the
subject line to: cccrnnews.nul

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating
and documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other
possibly related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating
a liason between researchers, farmers, the public, media and
scientists

c. CCCRN, 2004







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 1

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 26

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:14:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 08:43:14 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 26

Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 26
June 30, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


PORTUGAL FIRED A MISSILE
AT THE CIGAR-SHAPED UFO

      The Portuguese military fired a ground-to-air missile
at the luminous UFO that passed over their country during
the early morning hours of Monday, June 7, 2004.
(For the original report, see UFO Roundup, volume 9,
number 23 for June 9, 2004, "Luminous UFO seen by hundreds
in Portugal," page 5.)
      Portuguese ufologist Gregorio Sao Xavier reported
that "the cigar-shaped UFO was tracked on radar.  It moved
in a south-to-north direction.  It was reported in the
Portuguese newspapers that 'a target on radar' was found
at three separate military bases."
      These included "Beja, south of Evora and north of the
Algarve region; Montijo, near Lisboa (the capital of
Portugal--J.T.); and Oporto, the second largest city in
Portugal.  The news was released by a colonel in the
Portuguese Army."
      "That same day, only one report came from a civilian
identifying the trajectory of the unknown object as coming
from north to south, and a cigar form was described."
      "Some days later, it was reported on Spanish and
German TV that an official of the Portuguese Army
confirmed that a missile had been launched.  What most
people saw trailing smoke" was the missile launched at the
UFO.
      "Visual contact with the object was made at the base
in Beja," Gregorio added, "A week later, the photo of a
cigar-shaped object appeared in a popular (Portuguese)
magazine.  And a few days later, the military officials
charged with the investigation of the incident closed the
case, calling it an 'unknown object.'"
      One of the most curious aspects of this case was the
multiple sightings of a radar-domed AWACS plane, provided
by NATO, which was seen flying offshore, just west of Cabo
de Sines, 120 kilometers (72 miles) south of Lisboa.
(Muito obrigado a Gregorio Sao Xavier por esas
informacoes.)


DELTA-SHAPED UFO SEEN
IN DAYLIGHT OVER IRELAND

      "Two men working high up a radio mast in County
Monaghan" in Ireland "believe they have spied a top-secret
inter-planetary craft flying (north) toward Belfast."
      "Miles Johnston, of the Irish UFO Research Centre,
and Dublin-based rigger Terry Malone claimed the delta-
winged craft traversed the sky at ultrasonic speed, taking
just a few seconds to reach the horizon."
      "'I am convinced it was a man-made advanced space
craft--we had a good long look at it in the clear blue
sky,' Mr. Johnston said."
      "Mr. Malone confirmed that the object was 'absolutely
enormous.'"
      "'It was large, high and travelling at some speed,'
he said."
      "'I've seen B-52s going over, and you can hear them
buzzing, but there was not a sound from this thing.  And
it was gone in an instant.'"  (See the Belfast Telegraph
for June 26, 2004, "'UFO' is spotted in skies."  Many
thanks to Jim Hickman for this newspaper article.  And
don't forget to visit Jim's Web site---
www.thehickmanreport.com.)


WAVE OF CROP CIRCLES
SWEEPS POLAND

      Polish cerealogist "Bogdan Zabielski researched a
strange agroformation ( crop circle in the USA--J.T.),
which appeared two weeks ago in a field near Stawiska, a
village 10 kilometers (6 miles) from Korsze.  The
agroformation was composed of lines 60 centimeters (2
feet) wide, arranged in a strange shape.  Zabielski
exlcuded the possibility of the creation being a fraud."
      "The Stawiska agrosymbol is reminiscent of two Czech
agroformations, which appeared in Novy Malin in 2002 and
in Dobruska-Domasin in 2003.  It is the first
agroformation of its kind in Poland."
      On Monday, June 22, 2004, "a local newspaper
announced that a classic crop circle had appeared in a
wheat field on Ulica Zachodnia Street on the western
outskirts of Szezcin.  The case was investigated by Mr.
Makek Rudnicki, a reporter for the Glos Szezcinski daily
newspaper."
      The following day--Tuesday, June 23, 2004--Poland's
"Center for UFOs and Anomalous Phenomena Research (Polish
acronym: CBUFOIZA--J.T.) team investigated a strange-
looking agroformation which had appeared in a rye field in
the village of Domatkow, 5 kilometers (3 miles) from
Kolbuszowa.  The agroformation was composed of several
pathways 30 to 45 centimeters (1 to 1.5 feet) wide and
several little circles 50 centimeters in diameter.  It is
a possible hoax.  This case was investigated by the
CBUFOIZA team, plus the local police and an insurance
investigator."
      In addition, an officer from the nearby Polish Army
base at Kolbuszowa "was also at the scene."  (See the
Polish newspaper Glos Szezcinski for June 23, 2004.  Many
thanks to Robert K. Lesniakiewicz, Leszek Owsiany and
Bogdan Zabielski for these crop circle reports.)


BLACK GOOP FALLS FROM
THE SKY IN BOURNE, MASS.

      "A strange black spatter is baffling Bourne
(Massachusetts) residents."
      "The specks rained down on homes, cars and plants
near the Bourne Bridge (which spans the Cape Cod Canal--
J.T.), and a week later they're still there."
      "Town officials say it appears to be an oil-based
material that was sprayed from the bridge" on Thursday,
June 10, 2004.
      "Officials said it doesn't appear to be related to
any work done on the bridge."
      "In the meantime, the Cape Cod Times reported that
neighbors are using everything from paint thinner to glass
cleaner to try to get rid of the smudges.  One man said
he'll have to replace the vinyl siding on his home.  He's
happy to find the source of the problem so he can recover
his costs."
      Bourne, Mass. (population 1,200) is on Route 28, on
the Cape Cod side of the canal, about 50 miles (80
kilometers) southeast of Boston.  (See the WJAR-TV Channel
10 News broadcast of June 18, 2004.  Many thanks to Mary
Lou Jones-Drown for this news story.)


FAYETTE FACTOR FIRE
TAKES OUT A WAL-MART

      "A minor fire yesterday (Monday, June 21, 2004) at a
Wal-Mart in Fayetteville, North Carolina (population
121,015) still has people talking today--not because of
how much damage was done, but because of how bizarre the
whole incident really was."
      "It's business as usual today," Tuesday, June 22,
2004, "for Skibo Road Wal-Mart customers and employees,
but this wasn't the case yesterday afternoon when 38-year-
old Donivan Martin allegedly set fire to some clothes
inside the store."
      "Marcia Clark was one of the first employees to
notice the smoke.  'So I ran around here to see, and I saw
clothes on the floor burning, and it was just going up
this rack and just burning all the clothes.  And it
started to spread.'"
(Editor's Comment:  Here's a lexilink for Loren Coleman's
collection.  "Marcia Clark" was the name of one of the
prosecutors in the O.J. Simpson trial 10 years ago.)
      "After the suspect set the fire, he tried to make his
way out of the Wal-Mart, through the front door.  But he
didn't get very far, according to Sharon Walden, who works
at the store.  'I was scared.  I was afraid I was going to
die.  But, everything is fine.  Everybody kept their cool.
The guy ran out, and we had a customer that tackled him.
So everything's fine.'"
      "After being caught, Martin denied setting the blaze.
'The way they treated me.  And I was a customer inside
that store.'"
      "Meanwhile, authorities arrested a couple of other
customers for shoplifting during the fire.  'They got
caught at the door, trying to get out with a few things.
They weren't together.  I just thought they thought they
could get away with some merchandise while everything was
going on.'"
      "The fire damaged several thousand dollars' worth of
clothes, but no one was hurt.  Martin is being held in the
Cumberland County jail on a $10,000 bond."
      Another weird lexilink surfaced in Fayette County,
Tennessee.
      "Steven Keith Poe (a descendant of Edgar Allan Poe?--
J.T.) was shot and killed in Collierville, Tenn.
(population 31,825) around 2 a.m. on (Sunday) June 6
(2004) after breaking into the home of the parents of a
woman who had recently filed domestic assault charges
against him."
      "A report from the Fayette County Sheriff's Office
shows the 28-year-old Poe was arrested on March 25 (2004)
at 1415 Burrowtown Road, listed as his address, after
physically assaulting Karla Borchardt and doing damage to
her automobile during an argument.  He was charged with
domestic assault, resisting arrest, and vandalism, and was
apparently released on bond and ordered to refrain from
any contact with the woman."
      "A warrant was issued for Poe on April 19 (2004) for
violating the court order, and records provided by the
Fayette County Sheriff's Department shows Poe was arrested
April 21 and released from the Fayette County jail on May
4."
      "General Sessions Court records lists him as having
been found guilty of charges of domestic assault, contempt
of a court order, and vandalism on that same day.  Two of
the sentences carry penalties of 11 months, 29 days, but
were reduced to 75 percent of that and sentence was
suspended for time already served.  Poe was ordered again
to have no further contact with Borchardt."
      "Collierville police reported Poe was shot to death
by the woman's father after breaking into his house, where
she was living, armed with a rifle.  No charges were filed
in the incident."
      Within days of Poe's death, another frightening
report came from Fayette County, Tennessee.
      "Citizens of Manchester (Tennessee, population 8,294)
should begin taking steps to avoid mosquitoes.  The first
fatal case of West Nile virus in Tennessee this year has
been reported in a horse infected in Fayette County."
      "State health officials say it is difficult to
predict how severely West Nile virus will hit the state
this year but would expect to see around the same number
of human cases as the past two years, which was about 36
to 60 people."
      "Last year (2003) Tennessee had 26 human cases, 103
positive horses and 275 positive birds.  West Nile virus
is a mosquito-borne virus which can occasionally cause an
infection of the brain in humans."
      Rounding out the Fayette Factor news this week...
      In Louisiana, "the city of Lafayette's first black
police chief, Eddie Ware, died at his Roanoke home Sunday
night," June 20, 2004.  "He was 46.  Ware died of a blood
clot."
      In California, "a centuries-old American Indian
burial ground has been discovered at a construction site
east of San Francisco, in Lafayette (population 23,908)."
(See the WTVD News broadcast from Durham-Raleigh, N.C. for
June 22, 2004, "Back to business after fire at
Fayetteville Wal-Mart;" the Fayette County Review of
Somerville, Tenn. for June 23, 2004, "Fayette County man
shot dead in Collierville following domestic dispute;" the
Manchester, Tenn. Times for June 23, 2004, "West Nile
virus found in Fayette County;" the Florence, Ala. Daily
Times for June 22, 2004, "Lafayette police chief dies of
blood clot at age 46" and the San Jose, Cal. Mercury-News
for June 22, 2004, "Indian burial ground discovered at Bay
Area construction site."  Many thanks to Loren Coleman for
these news stories.)


HAARP UTILIZED IN RECENT
U.S. NAVAL EXERCISE

      "A rather unusual announcement was released this
morning (Wednesday, June 16, 2004) describing to the
public for the first time a previous Top Secret testing
program in the Atlantic.  It is known as Operation
Northern Edge."
      "This exercise appears to be utilizing HAARP."
      "Cmdr. Joe Murphy, USN, of the Alaska Command,
reported, 'A new combat system is being tested.  The new
testing device is used for what is commonly known as
'jamming.'  The Improved Capabilities System III (ICAP-3)
overloads specific listed communication bandwidths,
causing users to temporarily lose service."
      "'Training and testing of ICAP-3 is a stepping-stone
for the Navy,' said Chief Aviation Structural Mechanic Ron
Szpynda of Air Test Evaluation Squadron Nine (VX-9).
'This is the first time we have ever used this system.'"
      "VX-9's EA-6B Prowlers are being used to test the
system.  The aircraft provide protection for strike
aircraft, ground troops and ships by jamming enemy radar,
electronic data links and communications."
       "'The system floods an opposing bandwidth with more
frequency than those operating systems release,' said
Cmdr. Jim Winship," reportedly the executive officer (XO)
of the squadron.  'This causes users to temporarily lose
service.  Everything from telephones to sophisticated
electronics equipment goes static because the jammer can
overwhelm the frequencies they use.'"  (See Earth Changes
TV for June 16, 2004, article by Mitch Battros.  Many
thanks to "Popeye, Bluto and Olive Oyl" for this news
story.)

Well, that's it for this week.  Join us in seven days for more
UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth,
brought to you by "the newspaper that goes home--UFO Roundup."
 See you next time.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup
on their Web sites and in news groups provided that they credit
the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue
in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers.
If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received
the bulletin in error, please write to:

  <john.nul>

With the subject: Unsubscribe UFO Roundup.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 1

                           Mini-Men And Uncle Sam

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:48:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:54:35 -0400
Subject: Mini-Men And Uncle Sam


-----

From: T. Peter Park <tpeterpark.nul>
To: forteana.nul
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:42:16 -0700
Subj: Mini-Men and Uncle Sam


Mini-Men And Uncle Sam

Friends, Forteans, Listmates!

A neighbor of mine in Garden City South, Long Island has a
10- or 12-inch-high wooden lawn ornament of Uncle Sam carrying an
American flag that often startles me for a moment as I walk past the
house. It looks just like a tiny little man, less than a foot tall,
walking across the lawn!

My neighbor's Uncle Sam ornament reminds me of one of the most curious
of all Fortean anomalies: reported encounters with bizarrely tiny
humanoids, 8 to 18 inches tall. Such "mini-men" were seen in
Farmersville, Texas (1913), Canby, Oregon (1950), Ibague, Colombia
(1973), and Dunn, North Carolina (1976).

Three farm boys saw a nude, rubbery-looking "little man" in May
1913 near Farmersville, Texas. The incident was only publicized,
however, in 1978, when the witness was a grandfather. In 1913,
he was twelve years old, chopping cotton with his two brothers
on the family farm. Hearing their dogs howling, they found a
little man only 18 inches tall. He wore no clothes except a
"little round hat" resembling a Mexican hat that seemed "built
onto him." His arms hung down just beside him. Everything
"looked like a rubber suit including the hat," The boys' dogs
jumped on the little man and tore him to pieces, and he seemed
to have human internal organs. Next day when the boys visited
the spot where the bloody remains had lain, there was no trace
of them. (1)

Kenneth Arnold, the pilot who saw the original "flying saucers"
near Mount Rainier in June 1947, began investigating UFO's and
other Fortean mysteries in his spare time. In April 1950, Arnold
interviewed a Canby, Oregon woman about her "little man"
sighting, repeating her story years later in a lecture on "How
It All Began."  University of Oregon graduate Ellen Jonerson, "a
very intelligent person," saw a dark-skinned, 9- to 12-inch-tall
"little man" wearing "a little romper and a sort of plaid shirt"
walk with a "waddling" motion across her breezeway, pass under
the running board of a car, and disappear. (2)

Four boys saw four tiny entities 8 inches tall on August 10,
1973 near Ibague, Colombia. The boys were searching for
botanical specimens in a muddy riverbed, when they saw four
small beings standing under a stone footbridge, apparently
looking for something in the mud. They were dressed in white,
with tiny gray caps on their heads. As the boys walked towards
them, the little beings disappeared "as though by magic." The
boys searched the area and found tiny footprints. I can't help
but note the odd coincidence of four boys searching for
botanical specimens seeing four "mini-men" also seemingly
searching for something! (3)

The best-known modern "mini-man" was probably the "Coke bottle
man" seen near Dunn, North Carolina in October 1976 by an 8-
year-old boy and a 20-year-old woman. Little Tonnlie Barefoot
was playing in a cornfield near his home on October 12, when he
saw a little man "not much bigger than a Coke bottle," wearing a
black "German-type hat," a white tie, a blue top and trousers,
and black boots. He reached for something in his pocket, froze,
squeaked like a mouse, and ran off through the cornstalks,
leaving behind footprints 2 1/4 long by 1 inch wide with
bootmarks. Shirley Ann McCrimmon, coming home from a party just
before daybreak on October 25, saw a little man with light-brown
skin, wearing boots and a thin garment. He shone a tiny bright
yellow light in her eyes, and ran away when she screamed. Dogs
also barked at him. Footprints were again found, in hard ground,
but none in the soft ground where he had stood, and in the
cornfield the footprints ended abruptly.  Interestingly, the
Cherokee of the western Carolinas had legends of a race of
little people called the Tsundige'wi "with very queer shaped
bodies, hardly tall enough to reach up to a man's knee."
However, the 1976 Dunn mini-men were of perfectly normal human
appearance other than their diminutive size, in contrast to the
"very queer shaped bodies" of the Tsundige'wi.  (4)

As to what these mini-men could "really" be, I have no idea!
They are, I think, an excellent example of what Fortean
researcher Jerome Clark calls "experience anomalies"--
experiences that are certainly possible for human beings to
have, but of whose causes, mechanism, or dynamics we have at
present not the slightest idea.


Best regards,

T. Peter


References

(1) Janet Bord and Colin Bord, Unexplained Mysteries of the 20th
Century (Chicago: Contemporary Books, 1989), pp. 146-147, citing
Alex Evans, "Encounters with Little Men," Fate, November 1978,
 pp. 83-85.

(2) Kenneth Arnold, "How It All Began," in Curtis Fuller, ed.,
 Proceedings of the First International UFO Congress (New York:
Warner Books, 1980), p. 26, quoted in Michael D. Winkle,
"Monsters You Never Heard Of! Mini-Man"
<http://www.geocities.com/laxaria.miniman.html>; "Strange and
Unexplained!--Fairies"
<http://www.skygaze.com/content/strange/Fairies.shtml>

(3) Bord and Bord,  Unexplained Mysteries of the 20th Century,
pp. 155, 322, citing Gordon Creighton, "Tiny Entities Reported
in Colombia,"Flying Saucer Review, Vol. 21, No. 5, p. 33.

(4) Bord and Bord, Unexplained Mysteries of the 20th Century,
pp. 155-157, citing Fred H. Bost, "A Few Small Steps on the
Earth & A Tiny Leap for Mankind," Pursuit, Vol. 10, No. 2, pp.
50-53. On the Tsundige'wi, see James Mooney, Myths of the
Cherokee (Nashville, TN: Charles and Randy Elder, 1982
[originally published in the 19th Annual Report of the Bureau of
American Ethnology,1900], p. 325, cited in Michael D. Winkle,
"Haunted North Carolina: Up These Heights and Down These
Hollows" <http://www.prairiehists.com/hollows.html>, which also
quotes the Bords' account of the Dunn sightings, suggesting that
the "Coke bottle man" may have been a modern manifestation of
theTsundige'wi. Winkle cites the Dunn sightings in "Monsters You
Never Heard Of! Mini-Man" as a close analogue to Ellen
Jonerson's Canby, Oregon "little man."


--

"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1.nul







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 1

                    UFOparanormal.com Updated - 06-30-04

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 03:21:30 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:56:08 -0400
Subject: UFOparanormal.com Updated - 06-30-04


The latest in a series of new UK web sites is now on-line,
ufoparanormal.com. The first issue is free and can be viewed at:

http://www.ufoparanormal.com

It is expected that subsequent issues will require on-line
payment.


Joe








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 1

                     Tunguska Meteor Impact Anniversary

From: Louise Lowry <SHnSASSY1.nul>
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:56:29 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:02:00 -0400
Subject: Tunguska Meteor Impact Anniversary


Source: World Of The Strange

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/modules.php?name=Close_Encounters&op=ViewItems&
vid=57

07-01-04


Tunguska Meteor Impact Anniversary - June 30th 1908

A mysterious explosion rocked the Jenissei portion of the
Siberian forest. People living in the area observed a huge
fireball that rose up high in the sky. Russian scientist
Kazantsev researched what he described as the Tunguska blast,
going so far as trailblazing through the area in search of an
impact crater that was never found. Trees in the area, though,
were knocked to the ground from an epicenter which, unlike
normal blasts, was more elliptical than spherical, following the
original object's trajectory. The witnesses who observed the
fireball later succumbed to a deadly sickness very much
resembling radiation poisoning.

Many theories have been suggested as to what caused the blast.

Most prevalent among those have been microscopic black hole
impact with the Earth, collision with a comet and a nuclear
powered extraterrestrial vehicle losing control and crashing.

===

Jun. 30, 1908 Podkamennaia Toungouska (USSR). Unexplained
explosion in the taiga, equivalent to a thermonuclear blast,
sometimes interpreted as the crash of an inter- stellar vehicle.
(Anatomy 18; Challenge 99)

Web Link:http://www.cseti.org/crashes/082.htm At 7.00am on 30th
June 1908 near the lower Tunguska River, Siberia, a large
explosion occurred. The explosion was so massive that it caused
damage 400 miles away, and was heard even further. Even the heat
that came out from the explosion was felt hundreds of miles
away.

For several nights all over northern Europe, the sky glowed
enough to light the street of London. At first it was assumed
that a massive meteorite had collided with the earth.

Given the remoteness of the area it was not until 1927 that an
expedition was mounted to investigate the crash area. The
expedition could not locate any bits of meteorite which puzzled
them due the size that the meteorite would have to have been to
create such a large explosion.

Another puzzle for the expedition was the way the tress were
felled in an outward motion and that in the centre an area of
trees were still standing, although all their bark and branches
have been destroyed.

After the Second World War and the bombing of Hiroshima and
Nagasaki, photos of the cities were compared with aerial photos
of the Tunguska blast, and they were stunning similar.

As a result of this various scientists speculated that a nuclear
explosion had taken place over the area, hence explaining the
tree formation, and because no nation possessed nuclear device
the logical conclusion was that it was from an exploding alien
nuclear powered craft.

Other theories started to be banded around ranging from pinpoint
black holes, and antimatter particles.

Many of the witnesses to the original crash spoke of seeing and
oval-shaped mass moving across the sky, as well as seeing the
object change course, and of having a very low speed.

Most people today believe that what hit Tunguska was simply a
meteorite, but the alien craft theory still has a lot of
credibility. As with most of these cases that occurred long ago,
we shall probably never know for sure.

-----

World Of The Strange
http://www.worldofthestrange.com/








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 1

                         UFO Over Punta Arenas Chile

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:07:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:06:25 -0400
Subject: UFO Over Punta Arenas Chile


Source: Planeta UFO
Date: 06.30.04

CHILE: UFO SEEN OVER PUNTA ARENAS

The Office of Aeronautics Claims Having No Indication That The
Light Was an Airplane or Helicopter


PUNTA ARENAS, June 29, 2004 -- A strange luminous object was
seen in the skies of the capital city of Chile's 12th Region,
Punta Arenas. According to eyewitnesses, the Unidentified Flying
Object frequented the skies of the city for five days, being
seen in varios locations.

Radio Polar, the local radio station, had its telephone
switchboard collapse due to the volume of calls received from
witnesses to the phenomenon.

The Office of Aeronautics reported that it lacked official
records on the strange luminous bolide, making it clear that it
was neither an airplane nor a helicopter. They did not, however,
confirm that it was a UFO.

Alfredo Vera, correspondent for Radio Polar, managed to take
photos of the object from the So=F1adores lookout over the city,
where a large number of people had gathered to watch the strange
object and its irregular movements, which were foreign to those
of any known object.

It should be noted that the Magallanes Region and the city of
Punta Arenas have been the site of important UFO-related events,
the most significant being the one of June 1968, when two pilots
of Aerolineas Argentinas witnessed a "flying saucer" over Punta
Arenas. According to the pilots and 18 passengers aboard the
plane, the object had the characteristics of a shiny red
cylinder that moved swiftly, like nothing seen before. Likewise,
incredible film footage was obtained in 2003 showing 3 UFOs
separating and joining near a Chilean military base. This video
was made known by AION's correspondent in the 12th Region,
Carlos Munoz.

This sighting in Chile's southern regions can be added to others
reported in the country in recent days, such as the one over the
cities of Lanco and Petrohue on June 15, and the incredible
Ovalle sighting on the 19th of this month.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Christian Quintero








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 1

                     Chile's CEFAA Studies UFO Sightings

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:27:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:10:46 -0400
Subject: Chile's CEFAA Studies UFO Sightings


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology

July 1, 2004

Source: La Estrella de Iquique (Chile)
Date: June 30, 2004

Chile: CEFAA Records 15 UFO Sightings

The Committee for the Study of Anomalous Aerial Phenomena
(CEFAA, in Spanish) studies the experiences posed by civilian
and military pilots. While they may not say so openly, perhaps
so as not to create expectations or cause false alarms among the
citizenry, the military authorities are disquieted by the
subject. The fact is that the sightings recorded in the nation's
skies, and particularly the Corporal Valdes case of 1977, are
food for thought. For this reason, The General Office of
Civilian Aeronautics created CEFAA, which is a dependency of the
Technical Aeronautics School, directed by Hernan Henriquez
Cobaise, acting as president, a secretary who is an air traffic
controller, a public relations agent, a geophysicist, a computer
consultant - all of whom are members of the DGAC and having
responsibilities in other departments of the institution, and an
external psychiatric advisor. The purpose of this committee is
to compile, study, analyze and classify all information
pertaining to the subject in order to determine - based on a
serious and objective analysis - if the safety of aerial
operations in the country has been jeopardized, and to further
create a database that enables a characterization of the
phenomena studied. It analyzes the elements obtained thus, as
well as the tasks performed; it coordinates activities with
external and internal advisors and - if no complementary
information is available - performs a final evaluation of the
report.

Subsequently, film or photo evidence, whenever available, is
forwarded to external consulting agencies such as USACH
(Universidad Austral de Chile)'s School of Technology for a
final computer analysis. "It was necessary to become involved in
the subject to have as earnest a study as possible and offer
explanations for the sightings," says Henriquez. His agency must
study aerial phenomena reported by aircrews or aeronautical
personnel in order to ascertain the degree to which these
phenomena can affect navigation. "We are not focused on any
study that departs from this mission."

Sightings

Since 1997 to date, there have been 15 anomalous phenomena
recorded, which could be natural phenomena that produce a light
or interference that can affect an aircraft's flight path. The
cases recorded by CEFAA correspond to sightings. "Pilots who
have seen UFOs making sudden movements, violent position changes
and even approaches to the aircraft and lights of different
kinds." There are pilots who have seen objects very close to
them, but have been unable to define them in detail, only as
general shapes. "These are close-up sightings that can even be
worrisome, but whose true distance we have been unable to
calculate."

All pilots are able to see clearly a distance of two miles  -  in
other words, to distinguish the type of aircraft and its colors.
"We have details that have created great doubt. For example, the
say three lights turning on and off, or were constant, but when
we ask for details, we never seem to get any."

Formation

CEFAA's president points out that there are currently many
phenomena which lack and explanation given our poor
understanding of them, and which in the long run [causes people
to say] an alien spacecraft was involved. "But this is not the
case, because many observations identified as UFOs have been
aerostats, sightings of stars or planets, and which have a
logical explanation. There are, however, cases that have no
explanation and are curious, but that is not going to make say
outright that it was an alien spaceship." The air expert adds
that this does not mean that life on other planets doesn't
exist, but that there still isn't enough proof to ratify it.


---------------------------------------------------------------
Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Liliana Nunez O.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 1

                      UFOs Reported in Llay-Llay Chile

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:36:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:16:17 -0400
Subject: UFOs Reported in Llay-Llay Chile


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology

July 1, 2004


Source: La Cuarta (Santiago de Chile)
Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2004

Chile: UFOS Reported in Llay-Llay

The Center for the Study of Anomalous Aerial Phenomena (CEFAA)
of the General Office of Civil Aeronautics (DGAC) shall study
the strange aerial phenomenon reported at 7:20 a.m.


Several UFOs flew and executed pirouettes before daybreak
yesterday some 60 kilometers northeast of Santiago, in the
vicinity of Llay-Lkay and Las Chilcas, where they were
photographs by Juan Serey, 37, who was driving a pickup truck
toward the capital.

The witness told La Cuarta that he has spent 9 years driving the
same route from the north along the highway on a weekly basis,
and had never seen anything like this.

"It was incredible. I was driving southward when I suddenly
noticed several powerful lights moving swiftly and hanging in
the sky. It was spectacular," remarked the mechanical engineer.
The phenomenon lasted approximately 10 minutes, which gave him
enough time to whip out his Sony Cybershot 3.2 megapixel camera,
using it to take several photos which are published in La Cuarta
today.

"The lights were suspended some 50 meters over the mountaintop.
A large light opened up and seven or ten would gather. They
adopted various shape, fell out of order, would rearrange
themselves together and then one of them took off skyward at a
prodigious speed, zigzagging as it went, vanishing in a matter
of seconds," said Juan, who shall be submitting the photos
shortly to persons who study the subject.


---------------------------------------------------------------
Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Liliana Nunez O.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 1

                      More UFOs Over Punta Arenas Chile

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:59:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:20:33 -0400
Subject: More UFOs Over Punta Arenas Chile


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
July 1, 2004


SOURCE: Planeta UFO
DATE: June 30, 2004


CHILE: More UFOs Over Punta Arenas

Drivers halted their vehicles to get a better look at the
phenomenon

Strange object paralyzed residents of Punta Arenas

The object was seen at first light at Tres Puentes, to the north
of the city

A colored sphere crossed the southern skies. Experts say it
could be a planet or optical illusion


A luminous sphere sailed slowly across the skies over Punta
Arenas as it changed colors, bringing the capital city of the
12th Region to a standstill. Many drivers pulled over their
vehicles to observe the strange phenomenon, resulting in traffic
jams and causing people to be late to work. Others chose to
climb nearby hills to get a better view.

Local radio station "Radio Polar" began getting calls from its
listeners at around 6 a.m., reporting the strange unidentified
object. Some even said the object had been visible for five days
in a row. "A gentleman phoned in from Tres Puentes, in the
north, saying that there was a light that shone intensely. This
was the first call at aroung 6:30 a.m.. Then people kept
calling," says Claudio Vidal. "People spent a long time watching
the phenomenon. Folks working at the fisheries phoned in, and
since they usually get home before dawn, they said that the
light has been seen over that same area for five days straight,"
Vidal added.

"It's highly unusual," remakrs Alfredo Vera, Radio Polar's
announcer. Vera was given the task of following the object and
reported his experiences in three morning dispatches. He also
managed to photograph the spehre from the So=F1adores Lookout,
where a large contingent of earlybirds had gathered to discuss
the sighting. "The were startled, because the luminosity was
quite intense and the object moved slowly. They said that it
couldn't be something like Jupiter, which could be the nearest
thing to it, "says Vera. The journalist added: "It didn't scare
me, but I did get goosebumps, because it was very weird."

In order to worsen his doubts, the initial photos taken did not
come out. "Out of 14 I managed to recover 4. It's remarkable
that when I focus on the object, I see an image that resembles a
chewing gum from a Christmas Tree, but then it fades and is
replaced by a point of light. The photo shows a burning ball,
something red, green, blue, " he explained.

Despite the sensation caused by this sighting, experts from the
General Office of Civilian Aeronautics (DGAC) say it could be "a
star or an optical phenomenon created by light refraction."


---------------------------------------------------------------
Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Liliana Nunez O.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 1

               Home Video Captures Strange Light in Penalolen

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:04:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:23:36 -0400
Subject: Home Video Captures Strange Light in Penalolen


Source: Las Ultimas Noticias
Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2004

Chile: Home Video Captures Strange Light In Penalolen

Residents of Pe=F1alol=E9n also heard about strang flying objects
yesterday. At first light, ChileVision Noticias presented a home
video recorded Monday afternoon, showing an odd light glowing
through the fog as it changed shapes. Ufologist Alberto Urquiza
was one of the first to analyze the images.

"To my understanding, based on a preliminary analysis, it
appears to be the sun reflecting on a piece of glass, a glass
roof or a sunscreen."

In any event, the researcher said: "I am heading to the area to
speak to witnesses and to make recordings by daylight, without
the fog. Then we will be able to establish what was causing the
reflection."

---------------------------------------------------------------
Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Liliana Nunez O.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 1

                    Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:18:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:31:28 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:24:47 EDT
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Teri Hayes <truthspupl.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:35:08 -0700
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 23:11:43 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:42:10 +0100
>>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

><snip>

>You would do well to pay close attention to what Dick
>Hall tells you, he is a respected leader and pioneer in the UFO
>field, a true expert who knows a lot about the subject that you
>would do well not to remain "ignorant" of. He has nearly 50
>years of experience in the field, trained in scientific
>methodology and philosophy, and is not some johnny-come-lately
>to be casually disregarded or frivolously disrespected.


Brad

You and Dick Hall ought to give it a rest.

Patronising posts like the above, do nothing for the rest of us.
The two of you come over as a couple of grumpy oldsters who
stamp on anybody who either wants to have fun or who doesn't
always follow the profoundly discredited "scientific method". So
much so for doing things your way. It's got us exactly where?


Stuart Miller








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 1

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:48:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:33:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:10:26 -0700
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

<snip>

>Hopefully the members of the "American Psychological Society,"
>i.e., the readers of the "The Journal Psychological Science"
>will note that any conclusion(s) of Dr. McKnally's study is
>flawed, because the components of the experiment are flawed. He
>has separated "PTSD victims" from "abductee victims" without
>merit, and I propose, scientifically speaking, that until he can
>prove that the events described by an "abductee victim" have not
>occurred, then his protocol is flawed, therefore; any
>conclusions based on this study would have to be re-evaluated.

Science is not built on theories developed from proving the
negative, so psychologists (scientifically speaking) would never
have to prove that something didn't occur. Those making claims
that something did occur would have to provide the evidence to
support the claim, and if that evidence is solely annecdotal,
then that's the only foundation it has to go on.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but let's not simply throw out the
scientific process, or try to redefine it to meet our needs. I
have personal friends who are "abductees" and certain have
involvement with numerous researchers involved in that end of
the field, and IMO any Journal article that examines the field
is a good thing. We may not agree with it, but it lends
credibility to the validity of the topic under discussion.

>He, like his colleagues, as you have pointed out are biased,
>which of course is fine, when reading a journal, however;
>allowing bias into a study or an experiment certainly negates
>the "science" from it.

Again, IMO not "Science" as it is popularly defined.


Steve









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 1

                      Reporting On The Mexican Military

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 09:05:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:42:04 -0400
Subject: Reporting On The Mexican Military


Hello all,

I hope you'll find interesting this information.

Best regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director.nul


-----

Reporting On The Mexican Military

By Kate Doyle, Americas Program 10/5/04
May 15, 2004, 09:35
Last Updated: Jul. 1st, 2004

http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=3D45#=3D11847

Trying to report intelligently on the Mexican military is like
trying to see in the dark=97it=92s all shadowy outlines and no
details. The army is famously secretive, opaque, and hostile to
public scrutiny. Just ask the people who write about it.

"The army has never provided information to outsiders on its own
initiative," explains Raul Ben=EDtez Manuat, a scholar for the
Center for Research on North America at UNAM and visiting
professor at the National Defense University in Washington, who
has written extensively about the Mexican armed forces. "Its
policy is to have no contact with the press or academia."

James Smith, former correspondent in Mexico for the Los Angeles
Times, now foreign editor of the Boston Globe, laughs when he
recalls that even officials in the Secretariat of Defense
(SEDENA) press office refused to give their names when they
spoke to him.

Another Mexico correspondent for a major U.S. newspaper has
equally frustrating tales to tell: "We have never gotten any
useful information out of our contacts with the military."

The correspondent describes spending months faxing and calling
SEDENA in an effort to get Secretary of Defense Ricardo Vega
Garc=EDa to sit down for a personal interview. After months of
silence, General Vega suddenly agreed to meet. When he was
introduced to the reporter, Vega told him stonily:

"The only reason I am talking to you is that my President
ordered me to do so."

Remarkably, Vicente Fox=92s presidency appears to have had little
direct effect on the Mexican armed forces. While other aspects
of Mexican society and government became subject to fierce
public debate in the wake of the political transition, the
military remained apart, silent and unengaged.

-----

"Outdated" military equipment.

The report notes that Mexico lacks modern equipment and parts
and would be unable to integrate sophisticated weaponry:

Although Mexico is economically well developed by Third World
standards, it retains much outdated and heterogeneous military
equipment. Commanders from all services frequently complain of
spare-parts shortages, under-qualified maintenance technicians,
and lack of quality equipment.

Based on the poor condition of current Mexican weapons and
equipment, it can be concluded that competent employment of any
newly acquired sophisticated equipment would be highly unlikely
the Mexican military does not have a budget of sufficient size
or adequate training and logistical support structures required.
Although improving, this problem is not expected to be remedied
in the near future.

-----

Latin America Working Group Education Fund

Source: http://www.ciponline.org/facts/mx99.htm

The effectiveness of these equipment transfers has been
seriously questioned due to the condition in which items were
transferred, the equipment's usefulness to the Mexican
government's counternarcotics plans, and the timing of training
for those who would operate the equipment.

In March 1999 congressional testimony, Benjamin Nelson of the
General Accounting office recounted the story of the transfers.

Last year we noted that while U.S. - provided assistance had
enhanced the counternarcotics capabilities of Mexican law
enforcement and military organizations, the effectiveness and
usefulness of some assistance were limited. For example, two
Knox-class frigates purchased by the government of Mexico lacked
the equipment needed to ensure the safety of the crew, thus
making the ships inoperative. We also reported that the 73 UH-1H
helicopters provided to Mexico to improve the interdiction
capability of Mexican army units were of little utility above
5,000 feet where significant drug-related activities and
cultivation occur.

In addition, we noted that four C-26 aircraft were provided to
Mexico without the capability to perform intended surveillance
missions and without planning for payment for the operation and
maintenance of the aircraft.

-----








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

                     Tourist Destination For Ufologists?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 07:20:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 07:20:13 -0400
Subject: Tourist Destination For Ufologists?




Obviously, this website is at odds with the Grolsch beer survey.

However, this site should be bookmarked by all serious ufologists:

http://www.beerknurd.com/

It boasts "eighty-two" different beer taps. The chain has ten different
locations across the USA.

And let your mouse linger over the taps.....


[UFO UpDates thanks Chris Rutkowski for the above --ebk]






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

                     Re: Alleged 'J-Rod' Photo? - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:08:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 07:25:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged 'J-Rod' Photo? - Myers


>From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 06:11:47 -0700
>Subject: Re: Alleged 'J-Rod' Photo?

>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:52:30 -0700
>>Subject: Alleged 'J-Rod' Photo?

>>Only problem with this photo is that I remember someone
>>from the now apparently defunct setlab.org exposed it as a
>>hoax done by an FX team.

>I remember seeing the color photo a few years ago. I don�t
>remember if it was "exposed" as a "hoax" or not, but like most
>of these alleged alien photos (particularly those where no
>supporting details are provided) I think it was generally
>assumed to be a fake. Certainly, I was given no reason to
>believe it was real when I saw it. Does Dan Burisch really claim
>that this is a photo of his J-Rod or at least the same species?

>I find it strange that the black and white 'drawing' I�ve
>previously seen of the J-Rod (was it at Bill Hamilton�s
>website?) looks more like a typical gray alien, as described by
>many abductees and illustrated countless times elsewhere,
>whereas this photo looks more like a degenerated future human,
>malformed hybrid, or some such. In any case the physical
>features of its head and face do not look quite like the typical
>gray aliens we are familiar with.

The photo was the work of the now defunct fxmasters.com folks.

You can see a back-up of the old site at archive.org:

http://web.archive.org/web/20000901092655/www.fxmasters.com/student_center/index
.html

The person that originally received the photo was interviewed on
Coast To Coast AM with Art Bell from what I recall and the photo
was later found to be an FX job.


--Royce










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:56:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:01:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:42:36 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>If you read the paper carefully you will see the main concern of
>McNally et. al. is to investigate the controversy concerning
>recovered memories of trauma. One of the main problems with this
>is that some people argue that the fact that people recalling
>traumatic experiences show strong psychophysiological responses
>indicates that their stories must be literally true.

I was reluctant to get into this discussion, partly because in
my experience discussions on "false memory" never actually lead
anywhere, and partly because I've just got out of a rather ill-
tempered discussion on evol-psych - but, well, there it is.....

>McNally notes, though, " ... we found that adults reporting
>recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse were more likely to
>exhibit false recognition of nonpresented words than were adults
>who reported always remembering their abuse. A subsequent study
>revealed similar false memory effects in people reporting
>recovered memories of abduction."

Ok, let's hold that thought for a moment:

>In other words, the problem is in attempting to distinguish
>recall of subjective experiences from recall of real events.
>McNally et. al. attempt to do this by comparing the _details_ of
>the abductees' reactions with those of their control group, and
>also with their records of studies of people with PTSD (although
>it is not made clear here whether such people who presumably
>claimed to have had "plausible" experiences actually had them
>verified).

Actually, John, McNally et al don't present any data on people
with PTSD at all, they simply cite a paper by Orr and Roth from
2000, which I haven't read. They don't give any details about
this, and nor does their study include any participants who have
actually been dx'd with PTSD.

>In a footnote, it says that "For the abductees, the abduction
>and stressful scripts were physiologically indistinguishable ...
>In contrast, participants with PTSD usually exhibit greater
>responses to trauma than to other stressful scripts." _Very
>interesting,_

Well, not all that interesting, actually. If you look at the
paper carefully, you'll see that eight out of the 10 abductees
had recovered memories through hypnotherapy. That, potentially,
is a massive confound. They don't say whether any of the Orr and
Roth sample had recovered memories, but presumably they hadn't,
because that would have invalidated their whole experimental
hypothesis.

If the abductee group had experienced trauma in response to an
unknown event whose interpretation only emerged later through
hypnosis, then it really wouldn't be all that surprising if that
group were to exhibit a more generic trauma response than
another group who had experienced trauma in response to a much
more specific, clearly identifiable stimulus. In fact one would
predict this on the basis of what we know about associative
learning and conditioning alone.

This could easily account for the wordlist effect you mention
above, as well. One would expect that people who had actively
tried to recover memories would exhibit stronger pattern-
completion effects.

I'm not sure what to make of the various psychometric results.
They do seem to have used rather a lot of instruments (seven, in
all) which isn't altogether wise considering that they are using
t-tests. One would expect scores on one of the instruments (the
DES) to be elevated in a PTSD group in any case. I'm not sure
about the psychometric properties of some of the other
instruments.

>Although this paper by McNally et. al. is short, it is certainly
>not simple. Those who are keen to pronounce instant judgement on
>it should realise that it is obviously not intended to be the
>last word on the subject. Obviously the questions of the
>reliability of memory, how to distinguish true from false
>memories, and how false memories are generated, are very
>important, and no doubt there will be much more published on
>this topic.

You mean, even more than has been published already? Yeesh, will
the world survive yet another avalanche of so much paper? ;-)

I think in any case, the whole notion of "false memories" is
laden with assumptions, not the least one being that it actually
makes sense to talk about specific discrete memories which are
either "true" or "false".  Memories don't exist as readily
delineated objects, but as patterns of information subject to
different and changing degrees of processing and abstraction. It
probably doesn't make any sense to talk about any memory as
either altogether "true" or altogether "false" -- even computer
memories involve a process of abstraction, a point which is
sometimes overlooked by researchers in this area.


Cathy

[Catherine Reason]









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:15 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:04:58 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:18:13 +0100
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:24:47 EDT
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

<snip>

>>You would do well to pay close attention to what Dick
>>Hall tells you, he is a respected leader and pioneer in the UFO
>>field, a true expert who knows a lot about the subject that you
>>would do well not to remain "ignorant" of. He has nearly 50
>>years of experience in the field, trained in scientific
>>methodology and philosophy, and is not some johnny-come-lately
>>to be casually disregarded or frivolously disrespected.

>Brad

>You and Dick Hall ought to give it a rest.

>Patronising posts like the above, do nothing for the rest of us.
>The two of you come over as a couple of grumpy oldsters who
>stamp on anybody who either wants to have fun or who doesn't
>always follow the profoundly discredited "scientific method". So
>much so for doing things your way. It's got us exactly where?


Stuart,

Thanks for the free advice, which is worth every penny of it.

So the scientific method (not sure what the quotes are supposed
to imply) has been profoundly discredited, eh? That will indeed
be news to the NASA JPL scientists currently investigating
Saturn, Dick Haines, Bruce Maccabee, the National Institutes of
Health, and many many others. Might as well close down the labs
and go home.

Also, for the record I am not a grumpy old man. I'm a grumpy
young man, and getting grumpier by the day as I see mystics and
New Agers trying to take over the UFO field. As I dodder into
the sunset I will continue to fight for scientific rationality.


Cheers, Dick








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

                               CBBC Interview

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:50:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:07:31 -0400
Subject: CBBC Interview


On Friday July 2 I'm doing an interview on Xchange, a CBBC
programme looking at the Roswell incident, UFOs more generally,
and the question of how to spot fake UFO photos and footage:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/xchange/show/getinvolved/star.shtml

I've been told that a couple of characters were going around
trying to sell 'ufology is dead' stories to the newspapers in the
aftermath of Graham Birdsall's death. But I can't recall a time
when I've had as many media requests as I have at present.

Ufology is very much alive.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

                     Devil's Hole Amargosa Valley Nevada

From: Teri Hayes <truthspupl.nul>
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:11:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:14:53 -0400
Subject: Devil's Hole Amargosa Valley Nevada


Hello List,

I have taken some interesting photographs of Devil's Hole which
is located in the Ash Meadows Wildlife Refuge in Amargosa Valley
Nevada.

I have created a home page with just a few of these photos along
with information regarding them and the Hole. The pictures are
exhibiting some sort of signature or anomaly and I would like to
hear what any of you think may cause this or what I have
captured here? It looks to be some sort of energy coming from
within the Hole itself.

Again, this is speculation and I would really like to see if any
of you may provide a 'scientific' explanation of what is going
on. I have taken many photographs since then with the same
camera and it has not exhibited anything further as far as
anomalies, etc.

Unfortunately, I could not include all of the photographs
because space would not permit. I have an entire roll of 25
photos in hard copy and on a disk should anyone be interested in
seeing the rest of them. Not all of them have been affected, but
most have been.

To fully understand it would be best to go to my small website
and have a look.

http://home.earthlink.net/~truthspupl/

I am interested only in bona fide information that may help to
explain this interesting phenomenon.

At least some of you may be interested in this information.


Teri Hayes
truthspupl.nul








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser.nul>
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:58:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:19:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 21:22:17 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 05:20:54 -0700
>>Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 11:11:09 -0400
>>Subject: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>Source: WebMD

>>http://my.webmd.com/content/article/89/100279.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_nb_04

>>Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues On Memory

>>Study: Distress Doesn't Necessarily Validate Traumatic Memories

>>By Jennifer Warner
>>WebMD Medical News
>>Reviewed By Michael Smith, MD
>>on Friday, June 25, 2004

>>June 25, 2004 -- Recalling a traumatic memory may provoke severe
>>distress in people, even if the memory may be a product of their
>>own imagination, according to a new study.

><snip>

>An upcoming issue of Discover magazine, which will reach the
>general public immediately after the McNally study is released
>to the professional journal readers, will feature yet more
>drivel from McNally.

<snip>

>Somehow, this freelance writer with a hard core secular humanist
>streak knows enough to appear in the right time and place to
>boost the skeptics' arguments. And surely it is just some kind
>of random chance that you'll surely find many members of the
>Council for Secular Humanism referenced in her latest article.

If I may come to the defense, somewhat, of secular humanism, to
which I myself subscribe as a worldview... I believe the writer is
expressing "naturalism" and/or "materialism" more than "secular
humanism," which is merely the acceptance of full responsibility
for the fate of the human animal, in the _apparent_ absence of
supernatural deities or other forces.

The secular humanist says, "There doesn't appear to be a God,
therefore, we should behave as if we alone are responsible for
making this a better world to live in, since praying doesn't
seem to be the most efficacious method with which to improve our
lot."

It is more concerned with ethics than with science, at least as
I practice it, and therefore is not entirely incompatible with
proposed alternative realities, as long as it is agreed that
such realities must some day come to be recognized as
scientifically observable in order to be validated.

There is an objectivist underpinning to secular humanism, but it
does not necessarily exclude the possibility that such
subjective experiences as abductions might someday be validated
as occuring in _some corner_ of objective reality.

The writer of the Discovery article - and the author of the
previous post - may both be surprised to learn that Budd Hopkins
has described himself as a secular humanist...at least he did
so at a convention in Santa Barbara about 10 years ago.


==JJS==







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:48:25 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:28:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <nids.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:33:52 -0700
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>NIDS obtained permission to publish the entire McNally research
>article on the NIDS web site at:

<snip>

>The journal Psychological Science is one of the more prestigious
>journals in psychology and is also one of the flagship journals
>of the American Psychological Society. It is read by thousands
>of professional and research psychologists worldwide.
>Cumulatively Psychological Science readers hold tens of millions
>of dollars in research grants from NIMH and other grant giving
>bodies.

>My hunch is that the data in this paper will surprise many
>Psychological Science readers in the  psychology research
>community, since it greatly undermines their common perception
>that abductees are merely attention seekers, charlatans etc who
>want nothing more than to get their 15 minutes of fame. The data
>in Dr McNally's paper are saying that the responses of PTSD
>victims and abductees are almost indistinguishable and will
>therefore demolish some commonly-held stereotypes. I believe
>that Dr MacNally's paper may stimulate members of the
>psychological research community to take the next research step:
>to use the tools of fMRI and other brain-imaging techniques to
>take these (to their readers, very surprising) data to the next
>level. That is precisely what is needed in this field.

>As such, I believe Dr McNally's paper is a positive contribution.

<snip>

Beware, the following may not be politically correct, but it is
true.


The first lines of the paper set the rules of the game:

"Is recollection of highly improbable traumatic experiences..."

Yeah! A _positive_ contribution. More.....

"Therefore, belief that one has been traumatized may generate
emotional responses similar to those provoked by recollection of
trauma."

Great!

"Although improbable traumatic memories (e.g., being sexually
probed on a spaceship) provoke physiological reactions
comparable to those provoked by more conventional and verifiable
traumatic memories (e.g., a firefight in Vietnam), one should
not conclude that PTSD patients are reporting false memories of
trauma. Conversely, the physiological markers of emotion that
accompany recollection of a memory cannot be taken as evidence
of the memory�s authenticity. The script-driven imagery protocol
reflects the emotional significance of a memory, not necessarily
its veracity."

The psychological authority _uses_ the the abduction experience
as _proof_ that, contrary to what was believed so far by
science, PTSD symptoms do not necessarily prove the reality of
an experience. Worse: it states implicitely that any experience
leading to PTSD symptoms should prove the reality of the
experience except when we are dealing with _aliens_.

That's it man, we're dead meat.

A "positive" contribution?

Well, as I read on the paper, I felt, me, a simple mortal, that,
well, this boat didn't hold the water. What did I do? Did I say
to myself:

>The journal Psychological Science is one of the more prestigious
>journals in psychology and is also one of the flagship journals
>of the American Psychological Society. It is read by thousands
>of professional and research psychologists worldwide.
>Cumulatively Psychological Science readers hold tens of millions
>of dollars in research grants from NIMH and other grant giving
>bodies.

No! I smelled the smell of rotten fish and I checked over the
Internet, which, in the end, after the porno, and the mp3s and
the sex and the mpgs and the porno and the XXX is somewhat a
great equalizer.. and found the following, which I urge you to
read, because, obviously, it was written by guys and gals with
PhDs (I know, life is a bitch):

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~kihlstrm/special.htm

[tada, one must be kidding]

Is Traumatic Memory Special?
Katharine Krause Shobe John F. Kihlstrom
Yale University University of California, Berkeley

Read it, mice stuff:

Background: Hysteria and War Neurosis
Two Types of Traumatic Memory?
Traumatic Memory as Implicit Memory?
Terror and Betrayal
Traumatic Memory as State-Dependent
Clinical Lore and Scientific Evidence
Acknowledgments
Notes
Recommended Reading
References

This paper, I found by using a reference from the gospel you
guys have decided to put on NIDS' site:

Lindsay, D. S., & Read, J.D. (1994). Psychotherapy and memories
of childhood sexual abuse: A cognitive perspective. Applied
Cognitive Psychology, 8, 281-338.

And, by god (am I pissed? sure I'm pissed), one can understand
the following:

There seems to be 2 kinds of traumatic memories: the one induced
by Betrayal - the incest types, the sexual abuses by people you
trusted, and the ones induced by Terror. Terror and Betrayal,
two different animals, processed by the mind and soul in quite
different ways.

Am I mistaking if I presume that senor McNally and mucho al. use
sexually repressed memories to understand the abduction
phenomenon?

Do you know what terror is?

If you were one of my students, I garantee you that, this kind
of reasoning, you could have tried in September but wouldn't
have come to your mind in June, unless you were looking for an
academical suicide.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

                   Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:40:00 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:34:37 -0400
Subject: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto


Hello All,

I apologize for this Manifesto translation where some syntax
could not be as accurate as it should. I did my best and I hope
somebody may try to help if some words are lost or improperly
arranged.

The main reason of this post is to let you know about what the
Mexican scientific community thinks and feels about the
erroneous delivery of the Mexican Air Force FLIR's sighting
video to the last idoneous person from SEDENA's Secretary
General Clemente Ricardo Vega Garcia.

I am investigating the rumor of the Mexican Air Force General
Commander's recent removal and how the pilot, the FLIR and radar
operators involved in the FLIR's video have been degraded.

           _____________________________

Source (in spanish):

http://astrored.org/mexico/articulosp/manifiesto.html

Translation by Alejandro Franz with babelfish help at:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr

Manifesto against the erroneous interpretation of the UFO
phenomenon.

Open Letter to:

Presidency of the Republic

Commission of Science and Technology of the
House of Representatives

National advice of Science and Technology

Secretariat of Public Education

Secretariat of the National defense

To mass media

To The General Public

In view of the events published in mass media dating back from
10 of May of 2004, regarding what concerns about the observation
of luminous phenomenon by some elements of the Mexican Air
Force, the Mexican scientific community represented in this
manifesto (astronomers, scientists, publishers, and
representatives of planetariums, science museums, scientific
research institutions and astronomical associations) declare the
following:

The position of science is clear and in favor of the probable
existence of extraterrestrial civilizations, because all the
probabilities aim towards this sense. Nevertheless, to date
forceful proof of their manifestation or its presence in our
world does not exist.

UFO is an abbreviation of Unidentified Flying Object, being this
a simple technical definition of any phenomenon or event not yet
clarified on our skies. More than half a century science has
participated in a multidisciplinary way in this investigation
explaining and/or formulating diverse hypothesis on its origin
with a diverse degree of success.

Most of the manifestations of the phenomenon receive a
satisfactory explanation, being that they postulate its origin
in extraterrestrial devices lacking of conclusive evidences.

On the other hand, the Mexican scientific community wishes to
express a severe strangeness towards the Secretary of the
National Defense by the questionable criteria with which he
decided to give material in an exclusive way to a very reduced
group of people. This determination set a side countless
institutions of investigation in our ethical and serious country
that could make a more accurate work of the occurred event.

We lament that General Clemente Ricardo Vega Garcia, National
Defense Secretary, publicly disregarded the existence of top
level scientists in the disciplines of astronomy, meteorology,
nuclear sciences, and other sciences.

The fact that the National Defense ignored what institutions and
what scientific disciplines to count for this situation causes
restlessness to us on the methodologies that could be taken in
another type of events.

We asked that the materials, videos, technical information and
recordings of the event are to be made available for the Mexican
scientific institutions for their study. It is sad that this
material has been provided to public personalities or other
people's rather than Mexican science, whereas to the members of
the Institute of Astronomy and Nuclear Sciences of the UNAM has
refused them saying the "it was classified material".

Perhaps the SEDENA ignored the use that would be given by Mr.
Jaime Maussan to this video? And if this _classified material_
is disclosed, haven't they incurred in a serious crime?

Isn't it possible that the scientific community commits itself
to present/display a guessed right explanation of the video
while all the material for this investigation is not provided.
The only opinion that can be disclosed to the public and mass
media is a hypothesis that would include an approval to be put
at the moment at which unlimited access to the material and the
interviews to the witnesses of the event.

The Mexican scientific community wishes to outward that any
probable explanation expressed to date in mass media must be
taken only in the land of speculation and the scientific
hypothesis. The scientific method does not jeopardize the
investigators to emit a definitive judgment in a reduced margin
of time. The study of many phenomena of our universe has implied
the observation and investigation of many generations of
scientists, of equal way the present event will need to be
studied to detail without demarcations of time and by means of
the emission and later verification of hypotheses that can
explain it.

That the testified event could be a relatively explained as a
new atmospheric phenomenon for science and little has been
investigated related to the "ray ball" or "sparks". The "ray
ball" is a product of the gas ionization of our atmosphere. This
material in plasma state presents/displays many of the
characteristics described by the military personnel: moves
horizontally, is visible in diverse wavelengths -invisible and
visible-, like it leaves its intermittent track in the radar.
The "ray ball" tends to come near to the fuselage of the
airplanes, because its nature tries to unload its electrical
charge, it does not imply an "intelligent movement" as some
people have expressed.

Before a debate respecting this hypothesis is generated, it is
important to clarify that until today meteorology there was
counted with similar observations of the "ray ball", "spherical
ray" or "sparkles" in the altitudes in which it was observed by
elements of the SEDENA, on that we do not hope that its origin,
properties, duration and conduct are necessarily corresponding
to those flashes observed and studied at a smaller altitude.

The information successfully obtained by the Mexican Air Force
could give rise to a new stage in the investigation of the
atmospheric physics then never had obtained so forceful evidence
of this phenomenon to the altitudes in which it was filmed. To
confirm the tendency, Mexico will become pioneer in the study
and understanding of this facet of the atmospheric physics.

The scientific community and its divulgers want to summon mass
media to a nearer and healthier relationship in a way that it is
possible to keep the citizenship opportunely informed with the
professionalism, seriousness and quality that only can be
obtained with the joint collaboration of press and science. For
that reason, we who sign this manifesto make it available for
the general readers for the explanations and participation that
you may consider suitable.

Finally we convoke all the Mexican citizenship to visit all the
planetariums, public observatories, science museums and public
scientific events to spread that the astronomical institutions
to stay informed in the main scientific events. It will always
be the best antidote against the sensationalist declarations of
pseudo science.

Co-ordinating Panel:

Antonio S=E1nchez Ibarra.
=C1rea de Astronom=EDa
Universidad de Sonora.
Coordinador
asanchez.nul
Celular (662)290-7063
Hermosillo, Sonora, M=E9xico

Arq. Pablo Lonnie Pacheco Railey
Sociedad Astron=F3mica
del Planetario Alfa
Presidente
pablolonnie.nul
(81)8357-4269
Monterrey, N.L. M=E9xico

Francisco Javier Flores Figueroa
Asociaci=F3n para la Divulgaci=F3n
de la Astronom=EDa en M=E9xico
Federaci=F3n Mexicana de Astronom=EDa
Administrador de AstroRED M=E9xico
mexico.nul
M=E9xico D.F.

Ing. Jes=FAs Gerardo Rodr=EDguez Flores.
Vicepresidente y Divulgador Astron=F3mico.
Sociedad Astron=F3mica de la Laguna, A.C.
Torre=F3n, Coah.
Celular (871)110-37-31
jgerardo.nul

M.C. Pablo Sergio Barrera Pineda
Instituto Nacional de Astrof=EDsica
=D3ptica y Electr=F3nica
Candidato a Doctor en Astrof=EDsica
Santa Mar=EDa Tonantzintla, Puebla, M=E9xico
pbarrera.nul ,
Tel.- (222) 2663100 ext 1325

More than 100 signers.....


[End of Manifesto]


Please see the new 3D rendered image of the FLIR still and 4 oil
well coordinates and some interesting information at:

Mexican Air Force FLIR images are Oil Well flames!

http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/FLIR_CONCLUSION.html


Best regards to all,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director.nul
www.alcione.org
(non-profit)

"How often have I said to you that when you have
 eliminated the impossible, whatever remains,
 however improbable, must be the truth?
 -Sherlock Holmes in The Sign of the Four -








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

                     UFO Sightings Increasing Worldwide

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 04:08:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:36:35 -0400
Subject: UFO Sightings Increasing Worldwide


Source: The Free Internet Press

http://freeinternetpress.com/article.pl?sid=3D04/07/02/0718254&mode=3Dthread

07-01-04


UFO Sightings Increasing Worldwide

UFOs have been spotted in Louisiana, South Africa and Chile,
making this a worldwide phenomenon.

Michelle Hunter writes in the Times-Picayune that on May 24, UFO
researchers Joe and Linda Montaldo of Metairie, Louisiana,
videotaped a dark, oblong shape with flashing blue, green, red
and yellow lights. They watched the object hover for 11 minutes
over Lake Pontchartrain.

Joe Montaldo says, "When people used to tell me about this, I
used to think they were nuts, but there's just too much evidence
out there from credible people: doctors, lawyers, mayors,
firefighters and police officers=85My job is not to convince
people that ET is on the planet. My job is to rule out all the
other explanations=85When ET comes up and says, 'Hey Joe, how ya
doing?' I'll be a 100 percent believer." Read more.

In IOL News from South Africa, Ayanda Mhlongo quotes Roshnie
Naidu as saying, "The light was so bright, at first I thought it
was a police helicopter searching for criminals. But when I
could not hear the sound of the rotor blades, I decided to draw
the curtains and check what it was," according to:

UnknownCountry.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

               Re: Tourist Destination For Ufologists? - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:35:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 09:08:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Tourist Destination For Ufologists? - Groff


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 07:20:13 -0400
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Tourist Destination For Ufologists?


>Obviously, this website is at odds with the Grolsch beer survey.

>However, this site should be bookmarked by all serious
ufologists:

>http://www.beerknurd.com/

>It boasts "eighty-two" different beer taps. The chain has ten
different
>locations across the USA.

>And let your mouse linger over the taps.....

>[UFO UpDates thanks Chris Rutkowski for the above --ebk]

My band used to play at the one in Dallas (now closed) about 6
times a year. Lots of beer but there isn't really anything UFO
related except for the name. What you will notice when you go in
is that the walls and ceiling are covered in decorative
collectors plates and saucers which is where the name actually
comes from.

Terry









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

                 UFOs Reported in Llay-Llay Chile - Guenther

From: Daniel Guenther <daniel_g.nul-online.de>
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 14:40:48 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 09:11:08 -0400
Subject: UFOs Reported in Llay-Llay Chile - Guenther


>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:36:59 -0400
>Subject: UFOs Reported in Llay-Llay Chile

>INEXPLICATA
>The Journal of Hispanic Ufology

>July 1, 2004

>Source: La Cuarta (Santiago de Chile)
>Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2004

>Chile: UFOS Reported in Llay-Llay

with small photos:

http://www.lacuarta.cl/diario/2004/06/29/extras.html

(scroll down)

http://www.lacuarta.cl/diario/2004/06/30/30.04.4a.CRO.OVNIS.html


Daniel G.

--
Just the Cases - UFO sightings database
http://www.ufodb.net








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

                   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:13:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 09:37:10 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Lehmberg


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:15 +0000
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:18:13 +0100
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:24:47 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

><snip>

>>>You would do well to pay close attention to what Dick
>>>Hall tells you, he is a respected leader and pioneer in the UFO
>>>field, a true expert who knows a lot about the subject that you
>>>would do well not to remain "ignorant" of. He has nearly 50
>>>years of experience in the field, trained in scientific
>>>methodology and philosophy, and is not some johnny-come-lately
>>>to be casually disregarded or frivolously disrespected.

>>Brad

>>You and Dick Hall ought to give it a rest.

>>Patronising posts like the above, do nothing for the rest of us.
>>The two of you come over as a couple of grumpy oldsters who
>>stamp on anybody who either wants to have fun or who doesn't
>>always follow the profoundly discredited "scientific method". So
>>much so for doing things your way. It's got us exactly where?

>Stuart,

>Thanks for the free advice, which is worth every penny of it.

Ouch! I felt that over _here_! That was in Ben Franklin's first
"Poor Richard's Almanac," wasn't it? <g>

>So the scientific method (not sure what the quotes are supposed
>to imply) has been profoundly discredited, eh?

I'm not sure what Mr. Miller meant when he said this... but I
don't think he meant it the way you're rather too reflexively
taking it, Sir. I know what I'd mean if I'd been the one to
write it. It's not science that has discredited itself, of
course. Science, after all, is a remarkable and efficacious tool
for predictable application (even the way human beings practice
it) regarding a meaningful understanding of a, likely, key
fraction of the total reality. Let's be generous, even arrogant,
and say 2%. It's, likely, a lot less than that. Science is as
hard to discredit as a knife or a rake. Doing the job it is
expected to do does not provide the discredit. It is the not
'science' that is discredited. It is the 'scientist'!

Even Michio Kaku (has recently said that there are _many_ of his
associates who are peripherally intrigued with the UFO question,
but "fear of the giggle/discouragement factor keeps them at
bay"... and in _line_.

What manner of weak-willed pussy-boys or non-assertive females
are _these_? These are the discredited who need to dial up 1 800
"WhinyCoward." These are the shame that Mr. Miller may be
alluding to.

>That will indeed
>be news to the NASA JPL scientists currently investigating
>Saturn, Dick Haines, Bruce Maccabee, the National Institutes of
>Health, and many many others. Might as well close down the labs
>and go home.

Or, like "Liberals" since the advent of Al Franken, become more
intellectually militant and decide that it is a facet of your
total ufological philosophy that you are no longer going to
_accept_ the smirking giggles of your demonstrably ignorant
detractors -- no longer STAND for their clueless
discouragements! That might _open_ a new Lab or two just to
grease a squeaky wheel! Why not? Nothing esle is working!

>Also, for the record I am not a grumpy old man. I'm a grumpy
>young man, and getting grumpier by the day as I see mystics and
>New Agers trying to take over the UFO field.

Trying (as I've written before) to fill the void _created_ by
un-brave science (nay, scientists!), duplicitous government,
complacent institution, and corrupt agency! This is forgetting,
for a moment, that a lot of these "mystics" and "new agers" are
interested in the remaining 98% existing outside the 2% 'box'
the hard *scientist* insists we all stay in, fronts for, and
which he or she uses, jealously, to too conveniently define
themselves (in many cases)... not really mindful about
respecting what that might mean to the rest of us, and into our
aggregate future, about our place in an expanding universe.

>As I dodder into
>the sunset I will continue to fight for scientific rationality.

Rationality is required for science to work in its most minimal
sense anyway, Sir... better to fight for scientific 'courage',
first, I think. It seems to be working for the Liberals. Dave
Furlotte has some thoughts on this, I believe.


alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:01:12 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 10:27:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:58:25 -0700
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 21:22:17 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

<snip>

>There is an objectivist underpinning to secular humanism, but it
>does not necessarily exclude the possibility that such
>subjective experiences as abductions might someday be validated
>as occuring in _some corner_ of objective reality.

>The writer of the Discovery article - and the author of the
>previous post - may both be surprised to learn that Budd Hopkins
>has described himself as a secular humanist...at least he did
>so at a convention in Santa Barbara about 10 years ago.

You may be right, I may be using the term incorrectly. Certainly
the positive contribution of secular humanism - the idea that we
should take responsibility for making a better world - is
getting a bad rap due to the Council for Secular Humanism. Their
position and that of the reporter may more accurately be
described in another way. Perhaps when the article is published
you can weigh in on what position she truly had.

For my part all I can say is that tt was truly the strangest
interview I'd ever been in.

Basically my personal POV is that the alien presence comes from
another dimension, and I usually explain what I mean by
"dimension" as being the part of the world which has
historically been dubbed by theologians of old as the "spiritual
realm" - but which modern theoretical physicists would surely
describe in other, less theological terms. A realm that has life
which theologians might have improperly dubbed angels and such
but which our modern sensibilities perhaps more accurately view
as other species.

To this, the writer explained to me that there was no spiritual
realm, and that the only dimensions which exist are width,
height, and time.

Similarly when I offered my POV that humankind's meaningful
history is a record of people having developed a new perspective
on life here in this world after having perceived or received
information from these other parts of reality (either through
their own intention as in meditative like practices, or through
more dramatic visitations not by their own intention) she
explained to me that was also not true, that people simply have
a good imagination, and had written fiction books like the Bible
and other spiritual texts, and explained that these texts do not
describe reality, but rather, show off the capacity of the human
imagination.

So this is why I described her as a secular humanist. I may have
used the term wrong. But her tendency to disavow all aspects of
reality other than the material, while simultaneously crediting
all extraordinary experiences as examples of our own capacities
to be fanciful, are why I figured she was a secular humanist.
Could be she's a secular humanist with a hard core streak of
materialism, I dunno.

But I think it's safe to say she won't be writing any pieces for
the Shambala Sun. :-)







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

                Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:25:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 10:41:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto -


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:40:00 -0700
>Subject: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto

>I apologize for this Manifesto translation where some syntax
>could not be as accurate as it should. I did my best and I hope
>somebody may try to help if some words are lost or improperly
>arranged.

>The main reason of this post is to let you know about what the
>Mexican scientific community thinks and feels about the
>erroneous delivery of the Mexican Air Force FLIR's sighting
>video to the last idoneous person from SEDENA's Secretary
>General Clemente Ricardo Vega Garcia.

>I am investigating the rumor of the Mexican Air Force General
>Commander's recent removal and how the pilot, the FLIR and radar
>operators involved in the FLIR's video have been degraded.

Thank you, Capt. Franz, for the alerting us to this document and
for the translation.

I hope they haven't been downgraded but if they have, they won't
be the first to be downgraded for reporting a UFO.

_____________________________

>Source (in spanish):

>http://astrored.org/mexico/articulosp/manifiesto.html

>Translation by Alejandro Franz with babelfish help at:

>http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr

>Manifesto against the erroneous interpretation of the UFO
>phenomenon.

<snip>

>The position of science is clear and in favor of the probable
>existence of extraterrestrial civilizations, because all the
>probabilities aim towards this sense. Nevertheless, to date
>forceful proof of their manifestation or its presence in our
>world does not exist.

>UFO is an abbreviation of Unidentified Flying Object, being this
>a simple technical definition of any phenomenon or event not yet
>clarified on our skies. More than half a century science has
>participated in a multidisciplinary way in this investigation
>explaining and/or formulating diverse hypothesis on its origin
>with a diverse degree of success.

>Most of the manifestations of the phenomenon receive a
>satisfactory explanation, being that they postulate its origin
>in extraterrestrial devices lacking of conclusive evidences.

I note they say "most" implying that *some* sightings are
unexplained and hence *might* be evidence of ET. Hmmmmm... do
they really think so or is this just a "sop" to the "masses" of
ufologists?

>On the other hand, the Mexican scientific community wishes to
>express a severe strangeness towards the Secretary of the
>National Defense by the questionable criteria with which he
>decided to give material in an exclusive way to a very reduced
>group of people. This determination set a side countless
>institutions of investigation in our ethical and serious country
>that could make a more accurate work of the occurred event.

>We lament that General Clemente Ricardo Vega Garcia, National
>Defense Secretary, publicly disregarded the existence of top
>level scientists in the disciplines of astronomy, meteorology,
>nuclear sciences, and other sciences.

>The fact that the National Defense ignored what institutions and
>what scientific disciplines to count for this situation causes
>restlessness to us on the methodologies that could be taken in
>another type of events.

Perhaps he thought that conventional scence institutions would
immediately explain the sighting as such and such and not even
investigate. Can't imagine where he woudl get an idea like that!
(HO HO)

>We asked that the materials, videos, technical information and
>recordings of the event are to be made available for the Mexican
>scientific institutions for their study. It is sad that this
>material has been provided to public personalities or other
>people's rather than Mexican science, whereas to the members of
>the Institute of Astronomy and Nuclear Sciences of the UNAM has
>refused them saying the "it was classified material".

>Perhaps the SEDENA ignored the use that would be given by Mr.
>Jaime Maussan to this video? And if this _classified material_
i>s disclosed, haven't they incurred in a serious crime?

Perhaps they requested classified material? Some of the info I
have obtained (not from the DOD) is considered "propietary" and
some "classified." But to get the answers we don't need
classified materials.

>Isn't it possible that the scientific community commits itself
>to present/display a guessed right explanation of the video
>while all the material for this investigation is not provided.
>The only opinion that can be disclosed to the public and mass
>media is a hypothesis that would include an approval to be put
>at the moment at which unlimited access to the material and the
>interviews to the witnesses of the event.

Neither the science community nor the "UFO community"
should be claiming proof of explanation without all the data.

>The Mexican scientific community wishes to outward that any
>probable explanation expressed to date in mass media must be
>taken only in the land of speculation and the scientific
>hypothesis. The scientific method does not jeopardize the
>investigators to emit a definitive judgment in a reduced margin
>of time.

Here they claim that, as far as the scientific community is
concerned, the sighting explanations are hypotheses only. But in
the press the hypotheses are presented as explanations.

>The study of many phenomena of our universe has implied
>the observation and investigation of many generations of
>scientists, of equal way the present event will need to be
>studied to detail without demarcations of time and by means of
>the emission and later verification of hypotheses that can
>explain it.

>That the testified event could be a relatively explained as a
>new atmospheric phenomenon for science and little has been
>investigated related to the "ray ball" or "sparks". The "ray
>ball" is a product of the gas ionization of our atmosphere. This
>material in plasma state presents/displays many of the
>characteristics described by the military personnel: moves
>horizontally, is visible in diverse wavelengths -invisible and
>visible-, like it leaves its intermittent track in the radar.
>The "ray ball" tends to come near to the fuselage of the
>airplanes, because its nature tries to unload its electrical
>charge, it does not imply an "intelligent movement" as some
>people have expressed.

Obviously the "ball lightning" hypothesis is in the forefront of
explanations. But I am suprised they haven't all latched onto
the oil fire hypothesis/explanation. Perhaps they actually have
some faith in the witnesses who claim it wasn't oil fires.

I have requested, for over a month now, an experiment to test
the oil fire hypothesis. It is a simple experiment and probably
would cost only a few hundred bucks (can be done during a
routine patrol mission).








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:26:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 10:43:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:56:27 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

Just a few comments on my own comments on this one:

>Actually, John, McNally et al don't present any data on people
>with PTSD at all, they simply cite a paper by Orr and Roth from
>2000, which I haven't read. They don't give any details about
>this, and nor does their study include any participants who have
>actually been dx'd with PTSD.

I meant, of course, that none of the control group participants
had been dx'd with PTSD.

>>In a footnote, it says that "For the abductees, the abduction
>>and stressful scripts were physiologically indistinguishable
...
>>In contrast, participants with PTSD usually exhibit greater
>>responses to trauma than to other stressful scripts." _Very
>>interesting,_

>Well, not all that interesting, actually. If you look at the
>paper carefully, you'll see that eight out of the 10 abductees
>had recovered memories through hypnotherapy. That, potentially,
>is a massive confound. They don't say whether any of the Orr and
>Roth sample had recovered memories, but presumably they hadn't,
>because that would have invalidated their whole experimental
>hypothesis.

I should have added that the comparison is in any case pretty
meaningless without the means and variances of the sample(s)
from which Orr and Roth drew their conclusions.

Really one should conduct another study comparing a sample of
abductess to a PTSD control group. Perhaps this is what McNally
et al intend to do next.

<snip>

>I'm not sure what to make of the various psychometric results.
>They do seem to have used rather a lot of instruments (seven, in
>all) which isn't altogether wise considering that they are using
>t-tests. One would expect scores on one of the instruments (the
>DES) to be elevated in a PTSD group in any case. I'm not sure
>about the psychometric properties of some of the other
>instruments.

A word or two more on these.

I checked up on the Absorption Scale, and it's a 36-item
hypnotizability scale. Since eight of the 10 abductees had been
hypnotized in therapy, it looks like the effect here is probably
a selection artifact.

There are a couple of other interesting patterns in the
psychometric data -- the abductee scores are elevated on all
seven of the instruments concerned, although only three of the
effects are significant. Also, with the exception of the
Absorption Scale, the abductee standard deviations are higher to
an extent very roughly in proportion to the means. I'm not sure
what this means, but it looks a bit suspicious.  It could be
that the abductee group is not actually all that homogeneous, or
that some sort of conformity dynamic is at work within the
control group but not in the abductee group. It's difficult to
know without seeing the original data.


Cathy

[Catherine Reason]








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:45:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 10:58:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:01:12 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>There is an objectivist underpinning to secular humanism, but it does
>>not necessarily exclude the possibility that such subjective
>>experiences as abductions might someday be validated as occuring in
>>_some corner_ of objective reality.

>>The writer of the Discovery article - and the author of the previous
>>post - may both be surprised to learn that Budd Hopkins has described
>>himself as a secular humanist...at least he did so at a convention in
>>Santa Barbara about 10 years ago.

>You may be right, I may be using the term incorrectly.
>Certainly the positive contribution of secular humanism - the
>idea that we should take responsibility for making a better
>world - is getting a bad rap due to the Council for Secular
>Humanism.

On one hand, "secular humanism" is a general name for beliefs
put forth in opposition to organized religion, especially
fundamentalism. These beliefs are generally associated with
liberal politics, and Budd would be a perfect example of someone
who holds them. I wouldn't say the beliefs in themselves are
hostile to paranormal phenomena or to anything spiritual, but
they don't normally go in those directions. Budd also would be a
perfect example of a humanist without many leanings toward the
spiritual side of life.

But on the other hand, secular humanism has been strongly
promoted by the man who also started CSICOP. Isn't the Council
on Secular Humanism his creation? So in that sense secular
humanism has overtones of rigid skepticism.

On another and much happier note, these posts of Will's once
again show what a class act he is. Open, tolerant,
understanding, generous, without being any less firm in what he
believes. His description of the reporter he argued with was
really admirable, I thought. He treated her firmly, but without
any crippling anger.


Greg Sandow







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

                Re: Reporting On The Mexican Military - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:10:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 11:59:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Reporting On The Mexican Military - Velez


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:40:00 -0700
>Subject: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto

>Hello all,

>I hope you'll find interesting this information.

<snip>

>Best regards,

>Capt. Alejandro Franz
>director.nul

>Reporting On The Mexican Military

>By Kate Doyle, Americas Program 10/5/04
>May 15, 2004, 09:35
>Last Updated: Jul. 1st, 2004

>http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=3D45#=3D11847

>Trying to report intelligently on the Mexican military is like
>trying to see in the dark - all shadowy outlines and no
>details. The army is famously secretive, opaque, and hostile to
>public scrutiny. Just ask the people who write about it.

Hello All,

Considering the now _historical_fact_ that the top brass in the
Mexican military _has_ been so cooperative and forthcoming in
this case, to the point of setting international precedent, it
acts as a glaring counter to the point of view that you attempt
to glorify in this post. Recent history shows the writer of this
article along with others, such as yourself, who publicly
'promote' and support it, to apparently be _wrong_ in their
assessment -in regard to this particular instance.

Turning over the FLIR recording to your arch-enemy! How dare
they? But you'll show them, won't you?

This whole event must really be sticking in your craw for you to
post such a negative slam about your own country. Just when I
thought it was impossible for things to get any shallower or
lower, you came along and managed to drain just a little more
water out of the pool. Wow.


John Velez








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

                    Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:12:51 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 12:09:31 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:15 +0000
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:18:13 +0100
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:24:47 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge


Dick

>Thanks for the free advice, which is worth every penny of it.

>So the scientific method (not sure what the quotes are supposed
>to imply) has been profoundly discredited, eh? That will indeed
>be news to the NASA JPL scientists currently investigating
>Saturn, Dick Haines, Bruce Maccabee, the National Institutes of
>Health, and many many others. Might as well close down the labs
>and go home.

You're a devil, aren't you? I'll have to cross my T's and dot my
i's with you sir, that I can see. I was referring to Ufology
although I accept I never said that.

Now we've got that sorted, perhaps you might like to answer the
question honestly this time? In fact I'll repeat the question
within more specific parameters;

How exactly has the scientific approach got us any closer to
full disclosure or for that matter, even a confirmation of
anomalty?

>Also, for the record I am not a grumpy old man. I'm a grumpy
>young man, and getting grumpier by the day as I see mystics and
>New Agers trying to take over the UFO field. As I dodder into
>the sunset I will continue to fight for scientific rationality.

Jolly good and a worthy sentiment to boot. But I want to ask a
favour. Could you let the rest of us have our say, umolested by
sneering, bullying and sarcasm, if we happen to voice an opinion
that doesn't tie in with yours?


Stuart Miller








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

              Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:33:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 14:14:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:15:28 -0500
>Subject: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged

>>From "The Bleat," date and author unknown.....

>-----

>Great job, Pat! Nice of you to wad up all the goodwill you've
>accumulated and flush it down the toilet. Let's review: you're
>most prominently identified with which character? No, not Ahab.
>Perhaps Professor Xavier? After 2 more movies and 280 TV
>episodes, perhaps. No, you're Jean-Luc Picard. That's how
>millions know you; that's the character that millions enjoyed,
>because you did a good job of portraying a civilized,
>intelligent explorer who projected the values of Western Civ
>into the inky void while confronting the baffling nuances of
>worlds we have yet to imagine. Many of us aging dweebs enjoyed
>ST: TNG because you invested the silly thing with gravity and
>brains, and our wives loved it as well: that shiny skull worked
>for them big time. In a few years NASA will have a crop of
>engineers whose desire to put robots on other planets was first
>sparked by the opening fly-by sequence of TNG. They thought you
>were on their side. Silly people?

Will wonders never cease..... For once I actually agree with the
Bard of Adelphia.

For that matter, I actually understood what he wrote!


==JJS==








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:45:46 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 14:25:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -



>From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:26:35 +0100
>Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 10:43:16 -0400
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

<snip>

>Since eight of the 10 abductees had been
>hypnotized in therapy, it looks like the effect here is
>probably a selection artifact.

The languaging of this "8 of 10" may need more careful review. I
do not know if I am one of the 2, or if he considered me one of
the 8 because I had done some Reiki work. Note that he used the
term "quasi-hypnotic sessions" as a catch-all. Granted, Reiki
work can indeed produce the same sort of reliving of emotions
and memory that some assume is the sole province of
hypnotherapy, so it may be valid to lump different modalities
together.

However, when one does Reiki one does not know what sort of
emotional blockages one may be cleaning out, as opposed to
therapy done with a particular focus on aliens (which I think is
what the grouping implies, intentionally or not). I don't
believe that grouping these modalities together in one catch-all
is as accurate as it needs to be.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

                          Secrecy News -- 07/02/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:32:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 14:28:54 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/02/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 61
July 2, 2004


**      INTELLIGENCE SPENDING PUBLISHED IN UK, NOT US
**      DOD UPDATES SPECIAL ACCESS PROGRAM SECURITY


INTELLIGENCE SPENDING PUBLISHED IN UK, NOT US

The Intelligence and Security Committee of the British
Parliament published its annual report to the Prime Minister
this week and disclosed, as it routinely does, the total amount
of money allocated for intelligence, including past year
expenditures, current year estimates and future year
projections.

The 2003-2004 aggregate "net resource" allocation for the three
major UK intelligence agencies -- the GCHQ, the Security Service
(MI5) and the SIS (MI6) -- was reported to be 1,130.9 million
pounds, a twenty percent increase over the previous year.

See the UK Intelligence and Security Committee Annual Report for
2003-2004, June 2004 (at page 11):

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/uk/isc0304.pdf

Even this minimal level of public accountability remains beyond
reach in the United States.

In fact, the Central Intelligence Agency, which in some respects
is a remarkably primitive and backward organization, is
litigating this summer to prevent public disclosure of
historical intelligence budget figures from 1947 through 1970.
 (Aftergood v. CIA, DC District Court, Case No. 01-2524).


DOD UPDATES SPECIAL ACCESS PROGRAM SECURITY

The apparatus of government secrecy takes on its most
concentrated form in classified programs known as "special
access programs" (SAPs). Security policy for SAPs has recently
been updated by the Pentagon.

There are three types of SAPs within the military: acquisition
programs, intelligence programs, and operations and support
programs.

Furthermore, according to DoD policy, these SAPs fall into two
categories, Acknowledged and Unacknowledged. "An Acknowledged
SAP is a program which may be openly recognized or known;
however, specifics are classified within that SAP. The existence
of an Unacknowledged SAP or an unacknowledged portion of an
Acknowledged program, will not be made known to any person not
authorized for this information."

As suggested in the previous sentence, there can be SAPs within
SAPs, creating concentric circles of ever-increasing secrecy.

By their nature, SAPs are a challenge to external oversight.
 From time to time the authority to create and conduct a SAP is
abused, as in the 1987-1991 unacknowledged SAP named Timber Wind
that was later exposed and found by officials to be over-
classified.

The new DoD policy on SAPs was circulated in a March 30 letter
from Deputy Under Secretary of Defense (Counterintelligence and
Security) Carol A. Haave.

"Current circumstances indicate an urgent need to circulate this
guidance throughout DoD as soon as possible," she wrote. See
her letter of transmittal here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/library/nispom_dod_overprint_rev1_cov.pdf

The new guidance itself is contained in the "Department of
Defense Overprint to the National Industrial Security Program
Operating Manual (NISPOM) Supplement," Revision 1, April 2004.
A copy was obtained by Secrecy News and is posted here (3.2 MB
PDF file, 219 pages):

http://www.fas.org/sgp/library/nispom_dod_overprint_rev1.pdf


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web: www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

                    Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:28:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:00:39 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Sandow


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:12:51 +0100
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>How exactly has the scientific approach got us any closer to
>full disclosure or for that matter, even a confirmation of anomalty?

We might want to distinguish between two very different things.
First, there's the scientific method, as it's practiced by good
scientists doing good science. It's entirely applicable to
ufology. In fact, it should be followed in any serious endeavor,
where it's important to learn the true facts about anything.

And then there's the idiocy of many mainstream scientists when
they confront UFOs.

These are very different things. We shouldn't let the UFO idiocy
of some scientists blind us to the good work scientists do in
other areas. Or to the need for scientific thinking about UFOs.


Greg Sandow








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:40:49 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:47:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:01:12 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:58:25 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 21:22:17 -0700 (PDT)
>>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

><snip>

>>There is an objectivist underpinning to secular humanism, but it
>>does not necessarily exclude the possibility that such
>>subjective experiences as abductions might someday be validated
>>as occuring in _some corner_ of objective reality.

>>The writer of the Discovery article - and the author of the
>>previous post - may both be surprised to learn that Budd Hopkins
>>has described himself as a secular humanist...at least he did
>>so at a convention in Santa Barbara about 10 years ago.

>You may be right, I may be using the term incorrectly. Certainly
>the positive contribution of secular humanism - the idea that we
>should take responsibility for making a better world - is
>getting a bad rap due to the Council for Secular Humanism. Their
>position and that of the reporter may more accurately be
>described in another way. Perhaps when the article is published
>you can weigh in on what position she truly had.

>For my part all I can say is that tt was truly the strangest
>interview I'd ever been in.

>Basically my personal POV is that the alien presence comes from
>another dimension, and I usually explain what I mean by
>"dimension" as being the part of the world which has
>historically been dubbed by theologians of old as the "spiritual
>realm" - but which modern theoretical physicists would surely
>describe in other, less theological terms. A realm that has life
>which theologians might have improperly dubbed angels and such
>but which our modern sensibilities perhaps more accurately view
>as other species.

>To this, the writer explained to me that there was no spiritual
>realm, and that the only dimensions which exist are width,
>height, and time.

And to this, let me add a third, more "truly" skeptical view. We
don't know what we don't know. We won't know until we know how
we know what we know, and that, I'm afraid, we'll never know.
Basic epistemology. So we're left with guesses. Your POV is
interesting, and not necessarily invalid, but though it may be
true for you, it is for me, just a guess, and will remain so,
until I see proof for it. And since I subscribe to the
"profoundly discredited" scientific method (the _worst_ method
for gaining knowledge...except for all the others!), when I see
proof, so will the rest of the scientific community, and we'll
then perhaps have a clearer picture of the cosmos...or at least,
an update to our "working hypothesis" of the way things are.

Your interviewer, on the other hand, is also guessing. We are
_all_ just guessing. I believe there is an objective reality,
but I also believe that our minds will never be able to wholly
encompass it, and so we work within our epistemological limits.
To me, that means taking that portion of reality that has
"worked" for us thus far, and building onto it more things that
"work," i.e., guesses that withstand all our attempts to
disprove them _and_ generate useable results. It's clumsy, it's
whistling in the dark, but all you have to do is look at how far
it's gotten us so far. _However_...all knowledge is tentative,
and there is no rule or "commandment" in secular humanism that
says that your POV cannot turn out to be correct in the future,
especially if it can be integrated into what has worked so far.
That is where your interviewer has gone astray, in my opinion.
(I could be wrong, after all, I'm just guessing!)

>Similarly when I offered my POV that humankind's meaningful
>history is a record of people having developed a new perspective
>on life here in this world after having perceived or received
>information from these other parts of reality (either through
>their own intention as in meditative like practices, or through
>more dramatic visitations not by their own intention) she
>explained to me that was also not true, that people simply have
>a good imagination, and had written fiction books like the Bible
>and other spiritual texts, and explained that these texts do not
>describe reality, but rather, show off the capacity of the human
>imagination.

She is expressing the more likely scenario, but should not make
flat statements such as "That is not true." I say it is more
likely because, having read the Bible through several times, I
have yet to see anything that would be beyond the intuitive
capacity of exceptionally bright humans of that time, who after
all had nothing better to do than to contemplate the nature of
reality for years at a time, and like all of us, were afflicted
with "the urge to explain."

>So this is why I described her as a secular humanist. I may have
>used the term wrong. But her tendency to disavow all aspects of
>reality other than the material, while simultaneously crediting
>all extraordinary experiences as examples of our own capacities
>to be fanciful, are why I figured she was a secular humanist.
>Could be she's a secular humanist with a hard core streak of
>materialism, I dunno.

There are many overlaps among the various non-theistic
worldviews. I like to clarify them as much as possible, because
I do not necessarily share all the views of all secular
humanists. For example, many of my fellow humanists are aghast
that I am "into" UFOs. I, on the other hand, see no conflicts
between secular humanism and the belief that the UFO field has
been given short shrift by science. Sadly, many humanists do not
heed the words of Paul Kurtz, who said, "We reject any form of
dogma...including our own!" More sadly, I'm afraid Paul Kurtz
himself does not heed his own words.

>But I think it's safe to say she won't be writing any pieces for
>the Shambala Sun. :-)

Perhaps she should consider "Saucer Smear"....


==JJS==






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:05:00 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:51:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:45:21 -0400
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:01:12 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

<snip>

>On one hand, "secular humanism" is a general name for beliefs
>put forth in opposition to organized religion, especially
>fundamentalism. These beliefs are generally associated with
>liberal politics, and Budd would be a perfect example of someone
>who holds them.

While secular humanism is "generally associated" with liberal
politics, the two do not go hand-in-hand. Secular humanism in
and of itself does not in any way dictate one's political views.
It merely _rsubtracts God_ from the equation we use to reach
those views. It happens that doing so almost invariably causes
one to arrive at a generally more liberal opinion on many
issues. For example, subtract God from your musings on gay
rights, and what are you left with besides homophobia as support
for an anti-gay-rights stance? But even on this issue,
reasonable secular humanists can disagree as to the extent to
which rights should be extended. I, for example, stop short of
endorsing gay marriage. (Let's not get into the why's here -
maybe off-list,if you're interested). So "secular humanists"
are not to be considered a voting bloc.

>I wouldn't say the beliefs in themselves are
>hostile to paranormal phenomena or to anything spiritual, but
>they don't normally go in those directions. Budd also would be a
>perfect example of a humanist without many leanings toward the
>spiritual side of life.

As would I. But to trumpet my views as being the only reasonable
ones would be unseemly at best. Skepticism is supposed to be
self-referencing!

>But on the other hand, secular humanism has been strongly
>promoted by the man who also started CSICOP. Isn't the Council
>on Secular Humanism his creation? So in that sense secular
>humanism has overtones of rigid skepticism.

Yes, of course, skepticism is a pillar of secular humanism...but
note that he (Paul Kurtz) started _two_ organizations, not one.
This recognizes the fact that while there is overlap between the
skepticism of CSICOP and the do-good-in-the-name-of-humanity of
CSH, there are individuals who will subscribe to one and not the
other. I personally know the head of one skeptics group (a
CSICOP satellite) who is a devout Lutheran. Don't ask me how he
reconciles that in his mind, but my point is that while secular
humanism overlaps with other skeptical worldviews, the emphasis
is elsewhere.

>On another and much happier note, these posts of Will's once
>again show what a class act he is. Open, tolerant,
>understanding, generous, without being any less firm in what he
>believes. His description of the reporter he argued with was
>really admirable, I thought. He treated her firmly, but without
>any crippling anger.

Would that we all could employ such gentility in our
interactions - here and elsewhere.


==JJS==








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Colm Kelleher <nids.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:06:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:56:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:48:25 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <nids.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:33:52 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>NIDS obtained permission to publish the entire McNally research
>>article on the NIDS web site at:

><snip>

>>The journal Psychological Science is one of the more prestigious
>>journals in psychology and is also one of the flagship journals
>>of the American Psychological Society. It is read by thousands
>>of professional and research psychologists worldwide.
>>Cumulatively Psychological Science readers hold tens of millions
>>of dollars in research grants from NIMH and other grant giving
>>bodies.

>>My hunch is that the data in this paper will surprise many
>>Psychological Science readers in the  psychology research
>>community, since it greatly undermines their common perception
>>that abductees are merely attention seekers, charlatans etc who
>>want nothing more than to get their 15 minutes of fame. The data
>>in Dr McNally's paper are saying that the responses of PTSD
>>victims and abductees are almost indistinguishable and will
>>therefore demolish some commonly-held stereotypes. I believe
>>that Dr MacNally's paper may stimulate members of the
>>psychological research community to take the next research step:
>>to use the tools of fMRI and other brain-imaging techniques to
>>take these (to their readers, very surprising) data to the next
>>level. That is precisely what is needed in this field.

>>As such, I believe Dr McNally's paper is a positive contribution.

<snip>

>There seems to be 2 kinds of traumatic memories: the one induced
>by Betrayal - the incest types, the sexual abuses by people you
>trusted, and the ones induced by Terror. Terror and Betrayal,
>two different animals, processed by the mind and soul in quite
>different ways.

>Am I mistaking if I presume that senor McNally and mucho al. use
>sexually repressed memories to understand the abduction
>phenomenon?

>Do you know what terror is?

>If you were one of my students, I garantee you that, this kind
>of reasoning, you could have tried in September but wouldn't
>have come to your mind in June, unless you were looking for an
>academical suicide.

It is understandable that experiencers express outrage at the
apparent failure of the "mainstream" scientific community to
take them seriously, but the undeniable fact is research funding
has, with few exceptions, been continuously and pitifully absent
from the abduction subject. My contention is that the data
(independent of the interpretation) in Dr McNally's paper
increases the probability of further research on abduction,
perhaps even using imaging techniques that are gradually
becoming more capable of distinguishing "real" from "false"
memories (for a couple of examples, see below). The following is
a context for my original remarks. In the early 1990s, a
nationwide Roper poll, paid for by Robert Bigelow (president of
NIDS), was conducted by surveying approx 6000 demographically
weighted people in the United States. The survey asked people on
the street a series of questions targeted on "unusual personal
experiences". The purpose was to gain a first order
approximation into the frequency of abduction, and other
paranormal phenomena, from the perspective of the
(demographically weighted) average American. The results were
tabulated, interpreted and written up in an attractive (but not
necessarily objective) booklet with contributions by Budd
Hopkins, John Mack, David Jacobs and others. Some of those Roper
results are on the NIDS website:

http://www.nidsci.org

and they are compared to a second  Roper nationwide poll
conducted in 1998.

Yes, there have been some criticisms of the methodology used in
that Roper survey. In hindsight, there may have been some survey
questions in need of more refinement. Regardless, the booklet
containing the results and interpretations of the survey was
mailed from this office here in Las Vegas to about 100,000
professional practitioners in psychology and psychiatry around
the United States. The aim was to begin to stimulate a
nationwide dialog with psychologists and psychiatrists on this
very controversial topic.

At the same time, presentations were orchestrated in several
major cities in the United States, including a "travelling
roadshow" comprising presentations of the Roper data on "unusual
personal experiences" at multiple venues, mostly large cities.
 Again, the intent was to stimulate a national debate on
abductions. To cut a long story short, the end result of a
sustained effort, involving considerable expense, in reaching
out to about 100,000 psychologists and psychiatrists (including
academic, clinical psychologists, psychiatrists, and
neurologists) was a deafening silence. Very few replied to the
outreach attempts. Only a tiny minority were interested.

Thus, statements in my previous email were made from the context
of this previous failure to reach the research community. In
2004, I have no reason to think things have changed.

Anecdotally, I have heard abductees/experiencers referred to
rather dismissively by academic psychologists, academic
psychiatrists and by neurologists. I certainly cannot claim to
speak for all the readers of "Psychological Science", but my
impression from interacting with people in this research arena
is there is a very large degree of skepticism/cynicism. My
impression is that a stereotype is held by many in clinical and
academic research (as partially evidenced by the Roper
disappointment).

In my opinion, the good news about Dr McNally's article is that
the data speak for themselves. They are easily understood. The
data are broadly independent of any (including Dr McNally's)
interpretation. In fact, the data may go further. They could in
the future force some appraisal, involving experimental
research, of how "recalled experiences" can impact physiology.
My hunch is these data will catch the attention of the
clinical/academic psychology research community. They have tens
of millions of dollars of research funding at their disposal.
They are in a position to effect change. And there is no better
platform than a peer reviewed article in that particular journal
to capture their attention.

Bruce Maccabee's point that Dr McNally's article is merely re-
discovering Rima Laibow's data from 20 years ago is well taken,
but how influential was Dr Laibow on the segment of the research
community that dominates the research funding? And those who
dominate research funding also dominate policy. My answer would
be:Dr Laibow was and is not very influential. A glance at Dr
McNally's credentials shows that a paper from him will be
noticed. It may even be followed up on.

Various pronouncements on this email list are unlikely to catch
the attention of the well funded psychology community and/or
effect change. But the data in Dr McNally's article may.

As I said in my previous email, the data in Dr McNally's paper
may stimulate a future research project that compares abductees
with PTSD victims using fMRI and other brain imaging techniques.
That would be a first. There are some interesting data emerging
from research teams at Harvard and at Johns Hopkins on the use
of fMRI to tease apart the neural correlates that distinguish
"real" from "false" memories. Examples:

(1)Cogn Affect Behav Neurosci. 2003 Dec;3(4):323-34
Neural processing associated with true and false memory retrieval.

Okado Y, Stark C.

Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Maryland 21218, USA.

We investigated the neural bases for false memory with fMRI by
examining neural activity during retrieval processes that
yielded true or false memories. We used a reality monitoring
paradigm in which participants saw or imagined pictures of
concrete objects. (A subsequent misinformation task was also
used to increase false memory rates.) At test, fMRI data were
collected as the participants determined whether they had seen
or had only imagined the object at study. True memories were of
seen pictures accurately endorsed as seen, and for false
memories were of imagined pictures falsely endorsed as seen.
Three distinct patterns of activity were observed: Left frontal
and parietal activity was not different for true and for false
memories, whereas activity was greater for true than for false
memories in occipital visual regions and posterior portions of
the parahippocampal gyrus, and activity was greater for false
than for true memories in right anterior cingulate gyrus.
Possible interpretations are discussed.

(2) Nat Neurosci. 2004 Jun;7(6):664-72. Epub 2004 May 23
A sensory signature that distinguishes true from false memories.

Slotnick SD, Schacter DL.

Department of Psychology, Harvard University,
33 Kirkland Street,
Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138, USA.
slotnick.nul

Human behavioral studies show that there is greater
sensory/perceptual detail associated with true memories than
false memories. We therefore hypothesized that true recognition
of abstract shapes would elicit greater visual cortical
activation than would false recognition. During functional
magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), participants studied exemplar
shapes and later made recognition memory decisions ("old" or
"new") concerning studied exemplars (old shapes), nonstudied
lures (related shapes) and new shapes. Within visual processing
regions, direct contrasts between true recognition ("old"
response to an old shape; old-hit) and false recognition ("old"
response to a related shape; related-false alarm) revealed
preferential true recognition-related activity in early visual
processing regions (Brodmann area (BA)17, BA18). By comparison,
both true and false recognition were associated with activity in
early and late (BA19, BA37) visual processing regions, the late
regions potentially supporting "old" responses, independent of
accuracy. Further analyses suggested that the differential early
visual processing activity reflected repetition priming, a type
of implicit memory. Thus, the sensory signature that
distinguishes true from false recognition may not be accessible
to conscious awareness.


Colm Kelleher
NIDS








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:47:33 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:59:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:56:27 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:42:36 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>If you read the paper carefully you will see the main concern of
>>McNally et. al. is to investigate the controversy concerning
>>recovered memories of trauma. One of the main problems with this
>>is that some people argue that the fact that people recalling
>>traumatic experiences show strong psychophysiological responses
>>indicates that their stories must be literally true.

<snip>

>I think in any case, the whole notion of "false memories" is
>laden with assumptions, not the least one being that it actually
>makes sense to talk about specific discrete memories which are
>either "true" or "false".  Memories don't exist as readily
>delineated objects, but as patterns of information subject to
>different and changing degrees of processing and abstraction. It
>probably doesn't make any sense to talk about any memory as
>either altogether "true" or altogether "false" -- even computer
>memories involve a process of abstraction, a point which is
>sometimes overlooked by researchers in this area.

Thank you Cathy,

The study of the mind is the key to the secrets of reality.

Memories are our duplications of our environment via our senses.

Those memories or recordings then become modified with our own
conclusions, postulates, evaluations. Upon recall all that mish
mosh comes to the fore so that any memories aren't pristine but
filtered and processed from our points of view. So all memories
are only as valuable to others as they are accurate and able to
corroborate and apply.

The old "The fish that got away" scenario is example of this.

A person is sitting there minding their own business and
something unusual or unexpected happens and the senses go on
alert and those recordings become sometimes bigger than life.
After one calms down one might then relate more accurate
observations.

What's real to a person is just that: real to that person.
Others might or might not corroborate and agree. Yet if one has
evaluated and accepted something then it will register as real.

Example being a fellow catches a fish unexpectedly, it thrashes
about and startles him, he almost falls into the water. To him
he might interpret his saving as 'a guardian angel' as it's his
culture to evaluate such an action as such. Put him on a lie
detector or regretably under hypnosis and he'll say it was his
'guardian angel' and guess what? It'll register as real because
he has decided it is real. A real conclusion.

As for abductees, of course they're going to register as real
because of two and a combination of two. Something happened to
them and they accepted it as real per their ability and
education of interpreting that event. Of course the mind and
it's imagination will often fill in the gaps but good ol'
fashioned beat-cop examination will be able to sift through the
chaff and the wheat to get to the raw data. The applicable data
that can be used to construct a more readable scenario.

False memories? Unless someone has undergone some brutal
implantation of data that overwhelms their own analytical
conciousness.

Science has yet to resolve the power of our minds. Theoretical
physics might hold the key.

Abductees are then at the advantage from my viewpoint. No less
valid than the billions of people who've claimed to have seen
religious figures or interacted with religious figures on a
daily basis. Ask anyone who's driven the 101 freeway in Los
Angeles and 9 out of 10 will probably tell you if it hadn't been
for Jesus, God or their guardian angel they wouldn't have made
it to their destinations.

It's real to them and that's all that matters. It's how they've
interpreted their experiences and those memories restimulated
will put out that same data via their conclusions.

Abductess were abducted. Plain and simple. Whom or what abducted
them is only gleaned from comparative data under proper control
situations. It may seem fantastic and unreal but what's often
unreal and fantastic soon becomes run-of-the-mill.

Having psychologists delve into the fray shows that the issue is
becoming of some significant interest. No invalidation but
raises more questions. Of course nowadays the psychological and
psychiatric communities had better be cautious in labelling
these people 'insane' or 'mentally ill'. An abductee's story is
based in far sounder science than the billions upon billions of
stories of mythological and religious based interpretations of
life.

We know we suppress traumatic memories. That's been well
established. What happens to those memories depends on our
culture, well being, beliefs, education.

The only danger I see here is when mental health is used for
vindictive or political purposes. The sheer volume of abuse over
the past 100 years is overwhelmingly evident. If you don't go
with the flow you end up in a hospital or drugged.

Abductees, no matter how wild their stories are should not be
systematically treated like 19th Century mental ward victims.

Bottom line is, if it's real to them, it's real to them. If the
data can be corroborated, then the data can be corroborated.


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 2

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:16:40 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:04:55 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:12:51 +0100
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:15 +0000
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:18:13 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:24:47 EDT
>>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>Dick

>>Thanks for the free advice, which is worth every penny of it.

>>So the scientific method (not sure what the quotes are supposed
>>to imply) has been profoundly discredited, eh? That will indeed
>>be news to the NASA JPL scientists currently investigating
>>Saturn, Dick Haines, Bruce Maccabee, the National Institutes of
>>Health, and many many others. Might as well close down the labs
>>and go home.

>You're a devil, aren't you? I'll have to cross my T's and dot my
>i's with you sir, that I can see. I was referring to Ufology
>although I accept I never said that.

>Now we've got that sorted, perhaps you might like to answer the
>question honestly this time? In fact I'll repeat the question
>within more specific parameters;

>How exactly has the scientific approach got us any closer to
>full disclosure or for that matter, even a confirmation of
>anomalty?

>>Also, for the record I am not a grumpy old man. I'm a grumpy
>>young man, and getting grumpier by the day as I see mystics and
>>New Agers trying to take over the UFO field. As I dodder into
>>the sunset I will continue to fight for scientific rationality.

>Jolly good and a worthy sentiment to boot. But I want to ask a
>favour. Could you let the rest of us have our say, umolested by
>sneering, bullying and sarcasm, if we happen to voice an opinion
>that doesn't tie in with yours?

Stuart,

You must be looking in a mirror. It was you that essentially
told me (and Brad Sparks) to shut-up and mind our own business
and let you say whatever you want to say unmolested. In fact,
you repeat that sentiment here. It is my distinct impression
that this List exists for the exhange of ideas and for each of
us to comment on and critique what others say to our heart's
content. That's exactly what I intend to do, and if you feel
"molested," "sneered at," or "bullied" thereby, that clearly is
your problem.

You ask where the scientific approach has gotten us. Let me ask
a very serious counter-question: What other approach is there?
The very fact that you asked this question suggests to me that
you have some very strange concept of what science is or is
supposed to be. In case you haven't noticed, I have been highly
critical of wimpy, cowardly scientists who (a) fail to
investigate, and/or (b) fail to speak out. However, that is no
comment whatsoever on the validity of scientific method.

You seem to suggest that science is okay outside of Ufology, but
there it is not working. Huh?

And what is your alternative? Are you one of those Greerites who
think ranting and raving, tossing aside the most rudimentary
characetr checking, and dragging in all sorts of political hot
potatoes is going to get us somewhere? Or are you really
suggesting that there is some valid alternative truth-seeking
methodology that is superior to that of science?


 - Dick









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                     Forteanism And Experience Anomalies

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 11:40:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 07:14:09 -0400
Subject: Forteanism And Experience Anomalies


Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:27:10 -0700
From: T. Peter Park <tpeterpark.nul>
 To: forteana.nul
Subj: Forteanism and Experience Anomalies


Forteanism And Experience Anomalies

Dear fellow Forteans,

Forteans investigate puzzling phenomena that seem inexplicable
or even impossible by generally expected scientific theories -
 ghosts, poltergeists, UFOs, "alien abductions," "Bigfoot" and
other "Hairy Hominids," Lake Monsters, crop circles, the West
Virginia "Mothman," etc. Whenever possible, they try to find an
explanation for such occurrences - whether conventional or
extraordinary. More fundamentally, however, they also ask what
such phenomena indicate about the nature of the world we find
ourselves living in.

Do generally accepted scientific knowledge and theories give a
full and accurate picture of our world?, Forteans ask. Or is the
accepted "mainstream" scientific world-picture seriously flawed
and incomplete? Do Fortean and paranormal anomalies indicate the
gaps and errors in our world-picture?

Forteans have given different answers to these questions. Most
agree, anomalous phenomena suggest that our prevailing
"official" scientific world-picture may not be quite complete.
Some Forteans feel that we only need to make a few small
adjustments on the fringes of our scientific world-picture.
Maybe, they suggest, the intelligent, scientifically advanced
extraterrestrials postulated by SETI enthusiasts and
"mainstream" astronomers like the late Carl Sagan are in fact
already here with us, studying our planet, species, and
civilization in their UFOs, perhaps even abducting some of us on
occasion. Maybe, they speculate, pre-sapiens hominids
(Australopithecines,Homo erectus, Neandertals, etc.), dinosaurs,
plesiosaurs, or zeuglodons (serpentine prehistoric whales) did
not die out completely, but are still with us today in odd
corners of our planet, giving rise to Bigfoot, "Hairy Hominid,"
Sea Serpent, Lake Monster, or mokele-mbembe reports. Other
Forteans, however, believe that the anomalous evidence requires
"far-out" theories and quite radical revisions of our scientific
world-picture. UFOs, "aliens," "Hairy Hominids," Lake Monsters,
"Mothman" type winged weirdos, and mokele-mbembe "African
Dinosaurs" alike, they suggest, might be semi-material psychic
projections or thought-forms from the Collective Unconscious, or
"ultraterrestrials" from another dimension, or "Inner Earth"
denizens of a vast subterranean cavern realm (or even "hollow
Earth") unknown to orthodox geologists, or even the angels,
demons, djinn, or devas of traditional religious belief and
mythology.

Still other Forteans challenge accepted scientific theories of
human origins and prehistory by espousing "Ancient Astronaut"
theories like those of Erich von Daniken and Zechariah Sitchin,
or religious fundamentalist "Scientific Creationism." Hollow-
 and flat-earth theories find their advocates in some segments
of the Fortean and paranormalist community - as do all sorts of
conspiracy theories. The Fortean conspiracy theorists, too, run
a wide gamut. Some are relatively moderate believers in
government UFO cover-up and Kennedy assassination conspiracies.
A few even link the two, arguing that Fred Lee Crisman of 1947
Maury Island hoax ill-fame was a CIA agent who later turned up
as one of the three "tramps" (i.e., gunmen) arrested at Dealey
Plaza in Dallas in 1963. Others, however, espouse right-wing
theories of Jewish, Catholic, Masonic, "New World Order," or
"Illuminati" world-domination plots - against the protests of
Forteans like Jerome Clark who warn that "scratch a conspiracy
theorist, and a bigot bleeds." Some, indeed, accept the
elaborate super-conspiracy theories of David Icke and the late
Milton William Cooper, linking together the Elders of Zion, the
Illuminati, reptilian space aliens in human disguise,
underground UFO bases at Dulce or Area 51, and secret treaties
between the government and the "Grays." All of these Forteans
and conspiracists pride themselves on "thinking outside the
box." However, the susceptibility of some Forteans to conspiracy
theories involving ugly ethnic, racial, or religious prejudices
is troubling to more thoughtful, rational, or liberal-minded
Forteans.

Forteans - cryptozoologists investigating mysterious creature
reports, ufologists studying puzzling aerial phenomena and the
humanoids or other anomalous entities sometimes observed in
connection with those aerial phenomena, parapsychologists
studying unusual mental phenomena, etc. - are popularly seen as
"believing in" UFO's, "aliens," ghosts, Bigfoot, Lake Monsters,
telepathy, etc. Some Forteans do indeed zealously "believe in"
UFOs as extraterrestrial spacecraft, "Hairy Hominids" as
surviving Australopithecines or Neandertals, Lake Monsters as
surviving plesiosaurs, ghosts as the spirits of the dead, etc.,
collecting and publishing their data to support their pet
theories. Most cryptozoologists, ufologists, and other Forteans,
however, argue that true Forteanism is NOT "belief" in any pet
hypothesis, nor commitment to any one particular explanation of
anomalous phenomena. They see true Forteanism, rather, as
involving an open-minded skepticism about reported phenomena
hard to explain in terms of generally accepted scientific
theories, and a willingness to consider a wide range of possible
explanations for such reports, from the thoroughly mundane
through the slightly speculative to the seemingly bizarre. True
Forteans, they feel, see the generally accepted current
scientific world-picture neither as perfectly complete,
accurate, and infallible nor as completely worthless and
misguided.

As one leading contemporary Fortean, the cryptozoologist Loren
Coleman, has stressed, "pursuers of the unknown, Forteans all,
believe in nonbelief" (Loren Coleman, Mysterious America: The
Revised Edition [New York: Paraview Press, 2001], "Some
Concluding Thoughts After Some Years on the Trail," p. 289). An
"open-minded attitude to the many unexplained situations," he
feels, is "the stock and trade of the Fortean"
(Coleman,Mysterious America, p. 289). Coleman and his fellow
cryptozoologists can "accept concrete answers, actual flesh and
blood critters as the foundation to monster accounts." However,
he adds, "a psychological answer may be at work with some of
these accounts, and the rational conventional undiscovered
animal answer may not be viable for all reports." He sees "room
enough to consider many possibilities." However, he emphasizes
that as a cryptozoologist he does not "believe" in monsters.
Cryptozoology, he reiterates, is "not about 'belief.'" Believing
is "the realm of religion," but "cryptozoology, like all
sciences," is "about gathering the data and evidence to develop
trends, patterns, and evidence which lead to hard facts and
discoveries" (Coleman, Mysterious America , p. 289).

Thus, Coleman suggests on the one hand that quite probably "some
monsters in America are chimpanzee-like dryopithecines," "some
mystery cats and maned lions are relict populations" of Panthera
atrox, and "some lake monsters are unknown long-necked seals."
However, he feels that there is also "room" in his "cosmic
jokebox" for "teleporting alligators, Dover Demons," and
"phantom clowns that imitate UFO's in all aspects but flight."
(Coleman, Mysterious America , p. 289). Again, Coleman suggests
that some "spook lights," those "ghostly globes of illumination
that seem glued to specific locations," may be "related to
discharges of electric energy produced by geological fault
stresses. Some, however, may be related to "various kinds of
parapsychological disturbances akin to ghosts," and "others to a
form of geophysical phenomenon as yet not understood." He
professes himself "not afraid to say 'I don't know.'" (Coleman,
Mysterious America , p. 289).

Another Fortean researcher, Jerome Clark, has noted an ambiguous
duality in many anomalous phenomena, and suggested that they may
be best regarded as "experience anomalies," phenomena which it
is possible for people to experience, but whose actual nature or
explanation is still unknown. What is commonly thought of as a
single anomalous phenomenon (UFOs, Bigfoot, Lake Monsters, ball
lightning), Clark finds, may be two phenomena, one admittedly
bizarre but potentially explainable by current or near-future
science (extraterrestrial spaceships, surviving prehistoric
animals, etc.), the other seemingly just incredible, absurd,
magical, or supernatural, totally violating any rational
scientific world-view. Many such phenomena, he feels, are best
described as "experience anomalies," something in-between
ordinary hallucinations and encounters with physically real
objects or creatures. They are something more than simple
dreams, hallucinations, or visions, but not perhaps physically
or objectively real, either. They do not, Clark feels, prove
that strange entities or creatures really exist. They merely
show that it is possible for people to sometimes seesuch things.
We simply do not have the vocabulary needed to explain such
things.

In his Introduction to Unexplained! (1999), Clark described
evidence for "high-strangeness anomalies" as resting on
"credible persons reporting incredble things," with "nothing but
sincerity to show for it." This was not "the stuff of a
scientific revolution," but also no reason to "rush into the
vacuum with a naively reductionist account" rendering the
anomalous claim "harmless" by "covering it with a 'natural'
cause pulled out of a hat." It was "just as unwise" with
"scientifically meaningless or overtly supernatural 'theories'
based on a host of unverifiable assumptions about the nature of
reality" proposed by occultists, advocates of "metaphysical"
explanations, and theorists about other dimensions and "astral"
or "etheric" realms (Jerome Clark, Unexplained! Strange
Sightings, Incredible Occurrences & Puzzling Physical Phenomena,
2nd edition [Canton, MI: Visible Ink Press, 1999], Introduction,
pp. xviii-xix]

However, it was "clear" that the "literature on anomalous
phenomena," whether "written by proponents or debunkers," showed
that "we do not know why honest individuals, in all times and
places, claim to see things that all evidence and logic tell us
do not and can not exist." Human nature, Clark felt, "abhors an
explanatory vacuum." Thus, in the "rhetoric of the debate"
raging over reported anomalies through the centuries, a "strange
entity" was transformed "either into a conventional object or
animal to which it bears no resemblance or into an intruder from
some magical dimension." If "neither explanation" was
"especially helpful," it was because "the question has been
framed wrongly." The question should not be, though it all too
often was, "Do bizarre beasts and entities exist?" No "sensible,
all-encompassing answer" was "possible." Rather, the question
"really" was, "Is it possible to have the experience of
encountering bizarre beasts and entities?" The "answer" here was
"yes." This was "only to acknowledge modestly the obvious,"
which was, as folklorist Bill Ellis put it, that "weird stuff
happens" (Jerome Clark, Unexplained! , Introduction, p. xix).

However, this was "in no way conceding anything about what all
this weird stuff means." We can "grant," Clark felt, that
"people 'see' fairies or merfolk without for a moment believing
that fairies or merfolk are 'real'" in the sense of being
physical creatures composed of matter, occupying space, and
capable of being photographed or videotaped. Clark simply
recognized that "such sightings are an experience it is possible
to have, even though the actual dynamics of the experience
remain unknown to us." Thus, "science as currently constructed
has little to offer in the way of elucidation, and occultism has
only obfuscation." The "nature of these experiences," however,
did not need to "remain forever inexplicable." With the "ever-
 accelerating accumulation of knowledge in all areas," it would
presumably be "possible sooner or later to place these
experiences in a rational perspective," either as "heretofore-
 unsuspected perceptual anomalies" or as "glimpses of an
otherwise-undetected larger reality." Whether the "solution"
came "from the micro (subjective) or macro (objective) side of
the existential ledger," it was "sure to teach us something
real." Until then, these "events" should be "regarded simply as
curiosities that represent some of human experience's more
peculiar and unclassifiable aspects and about which it is
difficult to say more." They should "not be seen as the
foundation of a new science or a new religion," and they "ought
not to threaten anyone who does not need to believe late-
 twentieth-century science has accounted for all the interesting
phenomena of mind and nature" (Jerome Clark, Unexplained! ,
Introduction, p. xix).

Cryptozoologists, Clark noted, "deal with questions that seem
straightforward enough, but become complicated by unwelcome
intrusions of high-strangeness manifestations." Thus, "most
investigators of Loch Ness monsters, for example," concentrated
on "reports - and there are many - of creatures that could be
real animals, even if ones usually thought extinct such as
plesiosaurs and dinosaurs." They paid "as little attention as
possible," however, to "reported sightings (usually on land) of
things that look like aquatic camels, enormous crocodiles,
mutated hippopotamuses, great salamanders, or - in one instance
- a giant frog." Likewise, while most Bigfoot/Sasquatch reports
involved hairy ape-like creatures that plausibly might well be
relict survivors of our supposedly extinct evolutionary
ancestors or cousins, "some aspects of their appearance verge on
the apparitional, and a few instances hint at an association
with UFO's." (Jerome Clark, Unexplained! , Introduction, p.
xxiii).

"Not uncommonly," Clark thus found, "what is thought of as a
single anomalous phenomenon" may be "two phenomena, one merely
fantastic, the other utterly incredible." One "seems potentially
explainable, more or less, by current (or near-future) science,"
while the other is "absurd or inexplicable, or both." This
"peculiar duality" was "apparent even in such relatively sedate
manifestations of nature as ball lightning" (Jerome Clark,
Unexplained , Introduction, p. xxiii). The "temptations to
reductionism (the witness was dreaming it) or occultism (it was
a paranormal being from the etheric realm)" were "hard to
resist" in discussing high-strangeness anomalies. Again, "human
nature abhors an explanatory vacuum." However, "real
understanding" demanded "intellectual modesty and patience, not
to mention a huge tolerance for ambiguity" (Jerome Clark,
Unexplained! , Introduction, p. xxiv).

"Anomalies of the highest strangeness" dwelt in a "twilight zone
of ambiguity." To say that you have "seen" one was "not
necessarily to say that the anomaly lives on in the world when
it is not briefly occupying your vision and scaring the
daylights out of you." We may "experience unbelievable things,"
but "our experiences of them may tell us nothing about them
except that they can be experienced." One can "see" a mermaid or
a werewolf," but "however impressive the experience may be," the
"rest of us cannot infer from that that mermaids and werewolves
are 'real.'" In fact, Clark felt, "we can be certain that they
are not." And "that is all we can be certain of," because "all
we have done here is to remove one explanation (that mermaids
and werewolves live in the world) from consideration while
failing to put another in its place" (Jerome Clark, Unexplained!
, Introduction, p. xxv).

Clark returned to this theme of "experience anomalies" in his
2000  Anomalist  article "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men" on
"The Prehistory of the UFO Abduction Phenomenon." He compared
encounters with mermaids, fairies, and "aliens" as experiences
which were quite real and baffling but did not necessarily
indicate the real existence as physical space-time objects of
the entities or creatures reported. UFO "alien" encounters
seemed to be a contemporary counterpart of the mermaid and fairy
encounters of earlier times. Clark cited a number of detailed
ancient, medieval, and 18th and 19th century descriptions by
reliable witnesses under excellent viewing conditions of
entities closely resembling traditional folkloric "mermaids" and
"mermen," but conceded that a half-fish half-human creature was
a "zoological absurdity." Thus, those reliable witnesses with
their excellent viewing conditions could not possibly have seen
real biological "merfolk." (Jerome Clark, "From Mermaids to
Little Gray Men: The Prehistory of the UFO Abduction
Phenomenon," The Anomalist, No. 8, Spring 2000, p. 13)

Still, Clark noted, those "merfolk" witnesses  were not simply
Ain the grip of popular superstitions which affected their sense
of reality@ by distorting sightings of mundane objects or
creatures like manatees, choppy ocean waves, or clumps of
seaweed, as Awhat witnesses report about merfolk and what
legends and folklore report about merfolk do not match.@
Legendary merfolk were Aintelligent beings with supernatural
powers@ who Aspeak like normal human beings@ and Aeven shed
their fishy bottoms to live on land and romance or wed@ humans.
The Amerfolk of sightings,@ however,@ Aneither speak nor
communicate anything but animal-like sounds,@ and Agive no
particular indication of possessing more than an animal=s level
of intelligence.@ Witnesses often called the merbeing an
Aanimal,@ and used the pronoun Ait@ rather than Ahim@ or Aher.@
(Clark, "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men," pp. 13-14).

Mermaids, fairy encounters, and UFO alien abductions all
involved the "problem of extraordinary testimony by persons who
are to all appearances reliable and rational." It was {hard to
discuss these things" because "we don't even have a vocabulary
for them." It was "hard to imagine," unless "we are discussing
outright hallucinations, which I don't think we are," how "an
experience and an event could be different categories of
experience." Still, he was forced to concede, "as long as there
have been human beings, they have been." (Clark, "From Mermaids
to Little Gray Men," p. 29).

To an "unsettling extent," Clark felt, "so-called supernatural
beliefs have been based not just on nebulous lore and rumor but
on people's perceived experiences." People "believed in gods,
monsters, fairies, and mermen" because "they, or people whom
they knew to be credible, experienced them." Such "experience
anomalies," as Clark called them, were "shaped by images and
motifs familiar to those who lived within the culture in which
those experiences were perceived." That seemed to be "generally
true." Could it be, Clark wondered, that "our generation's
experience anomalies take the shape of abducting aliens?" He
added that he was "not discussing simple delusions or visions,"
but "experiences that in themselves are fantastic and
inexplicable by current knowledge," experiences that "are at the
same time different from and the same as those our ancestors
knew from thousands of years of human interaction with the
unknown" (Clark, "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men," p. 29).

The "abduction phenomenon, or at least a good part of it," Clark
suggested, might bear "only a superficial link with the UFO
phenomenon of daylight discs, radar/visuals, landing traces,
electromagnetic effects, and other hard evidence." That might be
"why, after 40 years of concentrated investigation into it," the
"evidence for abductions" had "yet to rise above the merely
intriguing." Where was "the abduction equivalent," he asked, of
well-established physical UFO evidence like "the RB-47 case, the
McMinnville photos, the Trans-en-Provence or Delphos landing
traces?" It was "thinkable" that "abductions, or at least many
of them," were "experiences, not events," and that "in trying to
bring them into the world and turning them into events, we're
confusing moonbeams with the moon" (Clark, "From Mermaids to
Little Gray Men," pp. 29-30)

Clark proposed "provisionally and undogmatically" that the
abduction phenomenon, or much of it anyway," was a "modern
version of the sort of experience anomalies those who once
encountered merfolk, fairies, and other supernatural beings
underwent." He was "not talking about hallucinations as
ordinarily and fairly well understood," but about "something
much stranger, something that defies our ordinary understanding
of how we perceive the world." This "experiential reality" took
"much of its imagery from ideas and images in the culture around
it," but also had "its own curious, idiosyncratic dynamics"
distinguishing actual encounters from traditional, legendary, or
popular beliefs and imagery. He thus cited the "divergence
between merfolk as experienced and merfolk as conceived in
folklore and legend," and the "large difference between fairies
as 'seen' and experienced, versus the fairylore of popular
culture." To these, Clark added "an abduction phenomenon whose
imagery can only be imperfectly traced to science fiction, UFO
literature, and mass speculation and theory about
extraterrestrial visitors" (Clark, "From Mermaids to Little Gray
Men," p. 30)

"If these experiences are not hallucinations," Clark felt, "they
do not seem to be events, either." They were "intensely real to
those to whom they happen," and they might "even be accompanied
by ambiguous 'physical evidence,' not enough by a long shot to
prove an extraordinary event, but sufficient to hint that
something unusual took place." We were definitely "dealing with
something that current knowledge cannot satisfyingly explain."
We might "also be dealing with something that forever dwells
inside a twilight zone of ambiguity." To "say that you have seen
a bizarre or unearthly entity" was "not necessarily to say that
the anomalous being or beast lives on in the world when it is
not occupying your vision and scaring the daylights out of you."
We "may experience unbelievable things," but "our experiences of
them may tell us nothing about them except that they can be
experienced" (Clark, "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men," pp. 30-
 31)

What might be "defeating our understanding," Clark reiterated,
was a "lack of vocabulary as much as anything." Experience
anomalies, he noted, "refuse pigeon-holing, and they promise
without ever quite delivering." Maybe we needed, he suggested,
"to look at the so far intractable problem of the abduction
phenomenon from a new perspective," one that "respects witness
testimony in a way that such testimony deserves to be respected,
yet also does not duck the question of why we are as far as ever
from being able to prove that UFO abductions are events that
happen in the world." We needed a "perspective that puts
abduction experiences into a larger historical context, and one
that acknowledges how much we don't know about the world outside
us, the world inside us, and maybe even that shadowy world that
may, in some fashion supremely difficult to grasp, be in both
places at once" (Clark, "From Mermaids to Little Gray Men," p.
31)


 -  "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress."
Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean1.nul







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

              Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:38:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 07:17:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged


>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:33:06 -0700
>Subject: Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:15:28 -0500
>>Subject: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged

>>>From "The Bleat," date and author unknown.....

>>-----

>>Great job, Pat! Nice of you to wad up all the goodwill you've
>>accumulated and flush it down the toilet. Let's review: you're
>>most prominently identified with which character? No, not Ahab.
>>Perhaps Professor Xavier? After 2 more movies and 280 TV
>>episodes, perhaps. No, you're Jean-Luc Picard. That's how
>>millions know you; that's the character that millions enjoyed,
>>because you did a good job of portraying a civilized,
>>intelligent explorer who projected the values of Western Civ
>>into the inky void while confronting the baffling nuances of
>>worlds we have yet to imagine. Many of us aging dweebs enjoyed
>>ST: TNG because you invested the silly thing with gravity and
>>brains, and our wives loved it as well: that shiny skull worked
>>for them big time. In a few years NASA will have a crop of
>>engineers whose desire to put robots on other planets was first
>>sparked by the opening fly-by sequence of TNG. They thought you
>>were on their side. Silly people?

>Will wonders never cease..... For once I actually agree with the
>Bard of Adelphia.

>For that matter, I actually understood what he wrote!


Let's go all the way back to incomprehensibility then, Sir. You
can't really "agree"... then "understand"; you'd have to
"understand" and _then_ "agree", or put your cart before your
horse, build your roof at ground level, or start your sentence
with a period. Moreover, more's the pity. I didn't write what
you've quoted. Looks like I'm _still_ batting a thousand with
you. Tsk.

alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:41:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 07:41:18 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - White


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:15 +0000
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

<snip>

>Also, for the record I am not a grumpy old man. I'm a grumpy
>young man, and getting grumpier by the day as I see mystics and
>New Agers trying to take over the UFO field. As I dodder into
>the sunset I will continue to fight for scientific rationality.

Rationality - yes. Declaring areas of study as not worthy of
"serious scientific study" because they "just seem too
incredible to be true" or the greybeards can't explain
them - no.


Eleanor White








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 16:04:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 07:46:03 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - White


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:15 +0000
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

<snip>

>Also, for the record I am not a grumpy old man. I'm a grumpy
>young man, and getting grumpier by the day as I see mystics and
>New Agers trying to take over the UFO field. As I dodder into
>the sunset I will continue to fight for scientific rationality.

There is a major flaw in the scientific method. The assumption
that if an observation cannot be duplicated under "identical"
conditions by "other experimenters", then that observation is
not valid. This is at the root of scientific prejudice against
phenomena which can be demonstrated by some people but not
others.

There is not one shred of proof that all phenomena in this huge,
complex, multi-dimensional universe are equally performable by
every experimenter. There is a psychic dimension to this
universe, and today's version of the scientific method has been
stopped dead because of the faulty assumption that there isn't
one.


Eleanor White









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 13:59:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 08:14:41 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hatch


>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:28:08 -0400
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:12:51 +0100
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>How exactly has the scientific approach got us any closer to
full disclosure or for that matter, even a confirmation of
anomalty?

Scientific method was never intended or thought to be a way to
force 'full disclosure'. That would be a political matter
mostly. There seems to be some lack of understanding what
'scientific method' is.

Neither should S.M. guarantee confirmation of one theory or
another. Some of the greatest advances in science came from
experiments that failed... using S.M. all the while.


- Larry Hatch







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station

From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 01:33:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 08:18:05 -0400
Subject: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station


Lake County, Ohio, Law Officer reports 'hovering boomerang' near
Willoughby Hills, Ohio - Perry Nuclear Power Station - on June
16, 2004.

For details, see:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/willoughby04.html


Thanks to Peter Davenport of N.U.F.O.R.C.
and
Painesville, Ohio researcher Daniel Wilson








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                   Sharon Larkin Response From Chris Parr

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 07:43:26 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 08:23:06 -0400
Subject: Sharon Larkin Response From Chris Parr


I received this from Chris Parr after forwarding Mike Wray's post
onto the ufologyinuk list. I have no wish to act as "Piggy in the
middle", so if there is any further dialogue between Chris and
Mike, I suggest they continue it directly with each other, or
directly via the Lists concerned.

Regards,

Joe

-----

From: Chris Parr <Chrissyparr.nul>
To: Joe McGonagle <joe.nul>
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:07 PM
Subject: Sharon Larkin - A response from Chris Parr


I have been accused by Mike Wray in relation to disparaging
comments aimed at the UFO research and evidence presented by
Sharon Larkin of Cumbria. Mike also highlights that Sharon did
not put herself forward to win the dubious accolade of Ufo
magazine Investigator of the Year. The facts are that ufologists
were prompted in an edition of UFO magazine to forward a cash
sum to nominate themselves and this facility was also made
available on-line by UFO Magazine.

For the sake of the reputation of UK Ufological Studies, I felt
duty bound to raise concerns about the UFO investigation and the
contents of a three page article by Sharon Larkin entitled "A
Toy Story". The latter was supposed to be a field investigation
into the dark secrets inside RAF Machrihanish. Ufologists
throughout the UK were amazed that such a dire ufological
contribution could be recognised as ufologically worthy and
award winning material by UFO Magazine.

It was not only ufologists who were dumbfounded by the Toy Story
Article. Experienced Stealth researchers at UK Stealth Study
Group (now Black Dawn) found the claims of Sharon Larkin to be
grossly inaccurate and their web site encouraged people to treat
the Toy Story article with humour. This group also tried to
contact Sharon Larkin and UFO Magazine on the matter, yet got no
response.

I have also brought to the attention to UK ufology that Sharon
Larkin incorporates X-Files plots into her very own ufological
claims of evidence. This matter is can be directly attributed to
the final contents of "A Toy Story" which elapses in a typical
X-Files plot and I forward my brief summary on the final twist
of this award winning investigation as follows.....

Sharon and her field investigation team are disguised as
tourists and make their way to the Chinook Disaster Memorial
Stone. On their journey, a complete stranger approaches them and
engages a conversation. As it transpires, the mysterious "Deep
Throat Character" is a former employee at RAF Machrihanish and
continues to reveal the true causes of the 1994 Chinook Disaster
and gives locations and background to the tragedy which reveal a
collision with an experimental UAV and the involvement of the US
Navy Seals.

Maybe Mike Wray or anybody from the Ufologyinuk list would be
kind enough to provide a word by word transcript of the Toy
Story article and also provide support to its content.

As a Cumbrian Ufologist, I will supply Ufology with an update of
ufo events, sightings and articles from this area. If I feel
suspicious about the content of such UFO related material then I
will highlight such concerns. If the same source of such
material appears to be coming from the same person then I am not
choosing to single out any one person. This is clearly the
pattern of spurious local ufo articles and the sources from
which they originate.


Chris Parr








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                             UFO Fest In Roswell

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 04:38:41 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 08:27:14 -0400
Subject: UFO Fest In Roswell


Source: The El Paso Times

http://www.borderlandnews.com/stories/borderland/20040703-138390.shtml

07-03-004


UFO fest in Roswell

Actresses Barbara March, right, and Gwynyth Walsh signed
photographs for fans Friday at the International UFO Museum and
Research Center in Roswell.

March and Walsh played Klingon warrior sisters Lursa and B'etor
in the "Star Trek: The Next Generation" television series and
the movie "Star Trek: Generations." The two are in Roswell for
the city's annual UFO Festival this weekend.










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 12:56:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 09:34:26 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:41:42 -0400
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:15 +0000
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>Also, for the record I am not a grumpy old man. I'm a grumpy
>>young man, and getting grumpier by the day as I see mystics and
>>New Agers trying to take over the UFO field. As I dodder into
>>the sunset I will continue to fight for scientific rationality.

>Rationality - yes. Declaring areas of study as not worthy of
>"serious scientific study" because they "just seem too
>incredible to be true" or the greybeards can't explain
>them - no.


Eleanor,

Agreed. This once again speaks to the human failings of biased
and/or ignorant scientists, not to the validity of scientific
method itself.


- Dick









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 13:06:59 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 09:36:57 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 16:04:36 -0400
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:15 +0000
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>Also, for the record I am not a grumpy old man. I'm a grumpy
>>young man, and getting grumpier by the day as I see mystics and
>>New Agers trying to take over the UFO field. As I dodder into
>>the sunset I will continue to fight for scientific rationality.

>There is a major flaw in the scientific method. The assumption
>that if an observation cannot be duplicated under "identical"
>conditions by "other experimenters", then that observation is
>not valid. This is at the root of scientific prejudice against
>phenomena which can be demonstrated by some people but not
>others.

>There is not one shred of proof that all phenomena in this huge,
>complex, multi-dimensional universe are equally performable by
>every experimenter. There is a psychic dimension to this
>universe, and today's version of the scientific method has been
>stopped dead because of the faulty assumption that there isn't
>one.


Eleanor,

Well, now you are off on another tangent. If a phenomenon can
only be replicated by certain people, then that is legitimate
grounds for being skeptical about it...not necessarily about
rejecting it altogether. Scientific method is not (or should not
be) as rigid as you seem to portray it.

Legitimate science can be applied to transient phenomena, and
wherever it may be inadequate to find answers what do you do
then? Toss out science? Substitute what? Crystal ballls? Tea-
leaf reading? I have argued strenuously that the [un]scientific
objections to UFOs are fallacious, and that creative scientists
can find ways to investigate difficult questions.

When you say "there is a psychic dimension to the universe" and
scientific method is faulty for assuming that there isn't, what
do you base that on? Sounds like  religious belief (faith) to
me.  I'd just as soon go back to my invisible green demon in the
corner who can explain everything.


- Dick








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                    Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:06:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 10:51:13 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Kaeser


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 16:04:36 -0400
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:15 +0000
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

><snip>

>>Also, for the record I am not a grumpy old man. I'm a grumpy
>>young man, and getting grumpier by the day as I see mystics and
>>New Agers trying to take over the UFO field. As I dodder into
>>the sunset I will continue to fight for scientific rationality.

>There is a major flaw in the scientific method. The assumption
>that if an observation cannot be duplicated under "identical"
>conditions by "other experimenters", then that observation is
>not valid. This is at the root of scientific prejudice against
>phenomena which can be demonstrated by some people but not
>others.

>There is not one shred of proof that all phenomena in this huge,
>complex, multi-dimensional universe are equally performable by
>every experimenter. There is a psychic dimension to this
>universe, and today's version of the scientific method has been
>stopped dead because of the faulty assumption that there isn't
>one.

Do those who promote the scientific method (in it's traditional
sense) believe that we have the ability to measure and
understand all of that which makes up our reality. I believe the
answer to that is a clear, NO.

The problem arises if one feels the need to convince others of
their beliefs based on the evidence they have. If an agreement
on what constitutes evidence and how it can be used does not
exist, then a rational discussion really can't take place.

IMO, declaring the scientific method as flawed (and we're really
only talking about a process here) merely limits the number of
people that are willing to take part in the discussion. I'd also
postulate that most of those on this list are 90% convinced of
their position regarding UFOs/Abductions/etc and few (if any)
are likely to be swayed by rhetoric posted here.

I guess this is a variation of the "shoot the messenger" problem
we also tend to have in this genre.


Steve








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

              Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged

From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser.nul>
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 07:09:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 10:53:07 -0400
Subject: Re:  Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:38:34 -0500
>Subject: Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged

>>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:33:06 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:15:28 -0500
>>>Subject: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged

<snip>

>>Will wonders never cease..... For once I actually agree with the
>>Bard of Adelphia.

>>For that matter, I actually understood what he wrote!

>Let's go all the way back to incomprehensibility then, Sir. You
>can't really "agree"... then "understand"; you'd have to
>"understand" and _then_ "agree", or put your cart before your
>horse, build your roof at ground level, or start your sentence
>with a period. Moreover, more's the pity. I didn't write what
>you've quoted. Looks like I'm _still_ batting a thousand with
>you. Tsk.


My bad. I should have known better.

==JJS==








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

              Re: Sharon Larkin Response From Chris Parr - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:13:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 10:56:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Sharon Larkin Response From Chris Parr - Pope


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 07:43:26 +0100
>Subject: Sharon Larkin Response From Chris Parr

>From: Chris Parr <Chrissyparr.nul>
>To: Joe McGonagle <joe.nul>
>Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:07 PM
>Subject: Sharon Larkin - A response from Chris Parr

>I have been accused by Mike Wray in relation to disparaging
>comments aimed at the UFO research and evidence presented by
>Sharon Larkin of Cumbria. Mike also highlights that Sharon did
>not put herself forward to win the dubious accolade of Ufo
>magazine Investigator of the Year. The facts are that ufologists
>were prompted in an edition of UFO magazine to forward a cash
>sum to nominate themselves and this facility was also made
>available on-line by UFO Magazine.

Joe, Chris, Mike,

I was peripherally involved in this, in that I presented Sharon
Larkin with her "UFO Investigator of the Year" award, having
been asked to do so by Graham Birdsall.

Sharon is an enthusiastic young ufologist who has been doing a
lot of hard work investigating cases in her local area. I think
the award reflected the view that the most important people in
ufology are the ones working hard at a local level, doing
investigations, organising meetings and trying to promote
ufology more generally. Her brief and somewhat nervous
acceptance speech showed refreshing modesty. I certainly don't
agree with some of her views (e.g. those in the article Chris
Parr cites) but she got her award for hard ufological graft at
grass roots level, not for her views on potential cover-ups and
conspiracies.

On the issue of finance, I believe that entries into the various
award categories were made by means of both self-nomination and
nomination by UFO Magazine. If you look at the back covers of
the July, August and September issues of the magazine you'll see
the following statement:

"In order to enter your video, book, documentary or movie into
one or more of the above categories, you must apply for an
official 2002 UFO Magazine Awards application form. This will
contain terms & conditions of entry."

There's no mention of self-nominating for the "UFO Investigator
of the Year" award, and indeed Gary Heseltine says on his PRUFOS
website that "I was very surprised but extremely honoured to
find that I had been nominated ...".

For the record, the other nominees aside from Sharon Larkin and
Gary Heseltine were Chris Rolfe, Dave Clarke and Andy Roberts. I
don't know if anyone in this category self-nominated, or if they
did, how much they paid. I suggest that you ask them.

I don't know if nominations were then put to the public vote
(This is beginning to sound like a commentary on Big Brother) or
whether Graham Birdsall and the UFO Magazine team chose the
winner.

I suspect that the easiest way to clear all this up is a quick
call or email to Russel Callaghan.

Best wishes,

Nick Pope








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

              Re: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:17:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:06:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station


>From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 01:33:17 -0400
>Subject: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station

>Lake County, Ohio, Law Officer reports 'hovering boomerang' near
>Willoughby Hills, Ohio - Perry Nuclear Power Station - on June
>16, 2004.

>For details, see:

>http://home.fuse.net/ufo/willoughby04.html

>Thanks to Peter Davenport of N.U.F.O.R.C.
>and
>Painesville, Ohio researcher Daniel Wilson


Hi Kenny,

I appreciate that interesting heads-up. I went to the webpage on
your site describing both the officer's and his wife's sighting,
but something puzzles me: Above (in your posting to UFO UpDates)
you mention the law officer's observation as that of a "hovering
boomerang", but, on the linked webpage, it is the officer's
wife's report which describes the object as hovering, not that
of the law officer.

I am puzzled because you describe the object that the law
officer saw as a "boomerang", but on your webpage both the
officer's observation and that of his wife describe only a
"triangle". Please explain why the reference to a "boomerang",
since, also, in the NUFORC report, only a triangular shape is
described.

Whatever the shape actually might have been, considering the
proximity to a nuclear plant, I hope that what the two witnesses
saw were surveillance craft from the U.S. and that it indicates
a careful watch is being kept on such facilities in order to
prevent terrorist acts.


Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 16:27:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:12:18 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Dickenson


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 16:04:36 -0400
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:15 +0000
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>Also, for the record I am not a grumpy old man. I'm a grumpy
>>young man, and getting grumpier by the day as I see mystics and
>>New Agers trying to take over the UFO field. As I dodder into
>>the sunset I will continue to fight for scientific rationality.

>There is a major flaw in the scientific method. The assumption
>that if an observation cannot be duplicated under "identical"
>conditions by "other experimenters", then that observation is
>not valid. This is at the root of scientific prejudice against
>phenomena which can be demonstrated by some people but not others.
>There is not one shred of proof that all phenomena in this huge,
>complex, multi-dimensional universe are equally performable by
>every experimenter. There is a psychic dimension to this
>universe, and today's version of the scientific method has been
>stopped dead because of the faulty assumption that there isn't
>one.

Hello Eleanor & List,

Your last statement is exactly correct, and 'science' has known
this for about sixty (60) years but keeps it a bit quiet. In
sheep/goats experiments the skeptics (goats) have a significant
_negative_ effect on phenomena/observables.

See "magic2.html" (Google) and

http://hopelive.hope.ac.uk/psychology/levelH/para/Lecture_4.ppt

Bringing psi into the lab

http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/aug1/psychic.html

Separating the Sheep from the Goats

and, even further back, here's Einstein writing to Heisenberg -
 "It is the theory that decides what we can observe"

Cheers

Ray


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

              Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:44:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:20:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged


>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 07:09:27 -0700
>Subject: Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:38:34 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged

>>>From: Jim Speiser <jimspeiser.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:33:06 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged

>>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:15:28 -0500
>>>>Subject: Patrick Stewart Jumped The Shark, And Snagged

><snip>

>>>Will wonders never cease..... For once I actually agree with the
>>>Bard of Adelphia.

>>>For that matter, I actually understood what he wrote!

>>Let's go all the way back to incomprehensibility then, Sir. You
>>can't really "agree"... then "understand"; you'd have to
>>"understand" and _then_ "agree", or put your cart before your
>>horse, build your roof at ground level, or start your sentence
>>with a period. Moreover, more's the pity. I didn't write what
>>you've quoted. Looks like I'm _still_ batting a thousand with
>>you. Tsk.

>My bad. I should have known better.


Something you could also know a little better, Sir, is that
you're entirely too casual about being insulting. Is that a
surprise?

I might also suggest that your alleged inability to understand
me is not my problem. I point out too that, by my recollection,
you have never - no, not one time - in public or private,
indicated a desire to understand. This signifies that you have
already made up your mind about the content and are not really
interested in an understanding.

Again, persons such as yourself, who operate on easy insult,
smirky comment, and affected condescension fail to comprehend
that, in the pointing of one finger... point three back at
themselves. I trust this was ... understandable.

alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                         Re: Sixto Paz Wells - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:48:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:22:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Sixto Paz Wells - Pope


On Tuesday I attended a talk given by the Peruvian contactee
Sixto Paz Wells, who was on a rare visit to the UK. With the
current focus on alien abductions, it's interesting from a
ufological perspective to come across someone whose story is
reminiscent of the claims made by people like Adamski, Bethurum,
Fry and Menger.

Have any List members met Sixto or come across his
Rahma Group, and was any objective investigation carried
out into the mass sightings he claimed occurred in 1974?

For those interested in the story, here's a link to an
interview with Sixto Paz Wells:

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:5LsSK0xMM1wJ:www.mysterious-america.net/sixto
pazwellsint.html+sixto+paz+wells&hl=en

If the link doesn't work, type Sixto Paz Wells into Google,
without using quotation marks. The interview should be at the
top, on the Mysterious America website. But it's only available
on the cached site.

Additionally, one of his books, The Invitation, is available
in English:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1887472290/103-5184505-1419853?v=g
lance

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1887472290/qid=1088868985/sr=1-4/ref=sr
_1_8_4/202-0737210-0267868


Best wishes,

Nick Pope







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                    Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:23:03 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:25:23 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:16:40 +0000
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:12:51 +0100
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:15 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:18:13 +0100
>>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:24:47 EDT
>>>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>Dick

>>>Thanks for the free advice, which is worth every penny of it.

>>>So the scientific method (not sure what the quotes are supposed
>>>to imply) has been profoundly discredited, eh? That will indeed
>>>be news to the NASA JPL scientists currently investigating
>>>Saturn, Dick Haines, Bruce Maccabee, the National Institutes of
>>>Health, and many many others. Might as well close down the labs
>>>and go home.

>>You're a devil, aren't you? I'll have to cross my T's and dot my
>>i's with you sir, that I can see. I was referring to Ufology
>>although I accept I never said that.

>>Now we've got that sorted, perhaps you might like to answer the
>>question honestly this time? In fact I'll repeat the question
>>within more specific parameters;

>>How exactly has the scientific approach got us any closer to
>>full disclosure or for that matter, even a confirmation of
>>anomalty?

>>>Also, for the record I am not a grumpy old man. I'm a grumpy
>>>young man, and getting grumpier by the day as I see mystics and
>>>New Agers trying to take over the UFO field. As I dodder into
>>>the sunset I will continue to fight for scientific rationality.

>>Jolly good and a worthy sentiment to boot. But I want to ask a
>>favour. Could you let the rest of us have our say, umolested by
>>sneering, bullying and sarcasm, if we happen to voice an opinion
>>that doesn't tie in with yours?

Dick,

>You must be looking in a mirror. It was you that essentially
>told me (and Brad Sparks) to shut-up and mind our own business
>and let you say whatever you want to say unmolested. In fact,
>you repeat that sentiment here. It is my distinct impression
>that this List exists for the exhange of ideas and for each of
>us to comment on and critique what others say to our heart's
>content. That's exactly what I intend to do, and if you feel
>"molested," "sneered at," or "bullied" thereby, that clearly is
>your problem.

If you don't have the insight or ability to appreciate what a
negative statement your above comments make about you, then I
can't be bothered to spell it out for you.

>You ask where the scientific approach has gotten us. Let me ask
>a very serious counter-question: What other approach is there?
>The very fact that you asked this question suggests to me that
>you have some very strange concept of what science is or is
>supposed to be. In case you haven't noticed, I have been highly
>critical of wimpy, cowardly scientists who (a) fail to
>investigate, and/or (b) fail to speak out. However, that is no
>comment whatsoever on the validity of scientific method.

>You seem to suggest that science is okay outside of Ufology, but
>there it is not working. Huh?

>And what is your alternative? Are you one of those Greerites who
>think ranting and raving, tossing aside the most rudimentary
>characetr checking, and dragging in all sorts of political hot
>potatoes is going to get us somewhere? Or are you really
>suggesting that there is some valid alternative truth-seeking
>methodology that is superior to that of science?

In relation to this subject, yes there is. It's called "proof",
something science has yet to successfully furnish, or indeed get
anywhere close to. Of course, no other method has succeeded
either but what is distressing to observe is your sole reliance
on a discredited system. The term "tunnel vision" seems to have
been invented for you. You are blinkered and irritatingly
impatient with any suggestion or reference to any other source
of investigation, so much so,  that one is tempted to think that
you believe in science.

Which leads neatly on to another point. How about chucking this
intellectual snobbishness when someone says that they "believe"
in ET and UFOs of an extraterrestrial nature? How about it huh?
If the truth be told, the only reason people like yourself
disdain that word in relation to this subject is so as to
separate yourselves from the "working classes" of ufology.
Tabloid reading, non-college educated blue collars who have sex
with aliens "believe". Clever clogs like you "accept" or
whatever other synonym you care to choose. And you "accept" or
"believe" in what? A principle that is so esoteric, indifinable
and vague as to be the subject of ridicule to the majority or
the world population, despite what polls may say. Hmmmmm, sounds
like a religion to me, that does.

I am not ashamed to say I believe and I will will not be
intimidated by politically correct snobs who will do anything to
distance themselves from "silliness" in a subject that the world
regards as silly.

And for that matter, how do you know that the New Agers aren't
right? How do you know that "Stargate" isn't the answer? You
don't. You just don't like them, but that has absolutely nothing
to do with The Truth. You sound just like a scientist.


Stuart Miller







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 3

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:37:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:28:51 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - King


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 16:04:36 -0400
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

<snip>

>There is a major flaw in the scientific method. The assumption
>that if an observation cannot be duplicated under "identical"
>conditions by "other experimenters", then that observation is
>not valid. This is at the root of scientific prejudice against
>phenomena which can be demonstrated by some people but not
>others.

>There is not one shred of proof that all phenomena in this huge,
>complex, multi-dimensional universe are equally performable by
>every experimenter. There is a psychic dimension to this
>universe, and today's version of the scientific method has been
>stopped dead because of the faulty assumption that there isn't
>one.


I am confused. Are you stating that the scientific method
requires duplication of observation? The requirement is
duplication of the experiment, and corroborating results, not
observations.

Or are you saying that the scientific method requires that all
phenomena must be "performable" by every experimenter?

If you are able to glean the value of a playing card simply by
looking at the back of the card, that is an observable
phenomenon. If any other experimenter were to duplicate the
experiment, and you were unable to duplicate the results, i.e.,
glean the value of the card, then your conclusion that it is a
psychic phenomenon is suspect. Nothing is disproved, simply not
scientifically proven. Of course, the common outcry is that the
experiment was flawed because the experimenter was biased or the
psychic "vibrations" were negative or some such. Science cannot
address this, since science is based entirely on observation and
results... or the lack of results.

Your statement that, "There is a psychic dimension to this
universe, and today's version of the scientific method has been
stopped dead because of the faulty assumption that there isn't
one", belies the true bias. You believe that psychic phenomena
exist. You provide no proof or experimental results to support
the belief. Yet you believe. Science cannot address "belief".
Science can only address observations of experimental results,
and attempt to duplicate them. To change the scientific method
such that ALL experiments are considered valid, whether they are
reproducible or not, makes science into something faith-based.
We have a "science" for that. It's called religion.

Religion has always fought science, since it does not rely on
faith. Science has not however fought religion. Since by
definition, faith cannot be quantified, science leaves questions
of faith appropriately with a faith-based entity, the church.

The flaw lies in your interpretation of the scientific method,
and in stating as fact something that cannot be proven, only
believed.

If you believe that the universe has a psychic component, that's
cool. Science doesn't hold it against you. It does, however,
expect that any experiments you perform be duplicatable by
others, else it is simply your bias and faith that allow you to
believe that psychic phenomena exist.

My beliefs do not have to be proven scientifically, because they
are beliefs. I do not deride science because it refuses to
recognize my beliefs as truth. The fact that science cannot
prove my beliefs does not make me think less of it. I certainly
wouldn't want science to embrace psychic phenomena because of my
potentially faulty assumption that it exists. I would prefer
science to hold to a much lower margin for error.

---








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 4

                    Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:57:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 09:21:22 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Kaeser


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:23:03 +0100
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

<snip>

>>And what is your alternative? Are you one of those Greerites who
>>think ranting and raving, tossing aside the most rudimentary
>>characetr checking, and dragging in all sorts of political hot
>>potatoes is going to get us somewhere? Or are you really
>>suggesting that there is some valid alternative truth-seeking
>>methodology that is superior to that of science?

>In relation to this subject, yes there is. It's called "proof",
>something science has yet to successfully furnish, or indeed get
>anywhere close to. Of course, no other method has succeeded
>either but what is distressing to observe is your sole reliance
>on a discredited system. The term "tunnel vision" seems to have
>been invented for you. You are blinkered and irritatingly
>impatient with any suggestion or reference to any other source
>of investigation, so much so,  that one is tempted to think that
>you believe in science.

>Which leads neatly on to another point. How about chucking this
>intellectual snobbishness when someone says that they "believe"
>in ET and UFOs of an extraterrestrial nature? How about it huh?
>If the truth be told, the only reason people like yourself
>disdain that word in relation to this subject is so as to
>separate yourselves from the "working classes" of ufology.
>Tabloid reading, non-college educated blue collars who have sex
>with aliens "believe". Clever clogs like you "accept" or
>whatever other synonym you care to choose. And you "accept" or
>"believe" in what? A principle that is so esoteric, indifinable
>and vague as to be the subject of ridicule to the majority or
>the world population, despite what polls may say. Hmmmmm, sounds
>like a religion to me, that does.

>I am not ashamed to say I believe and I will will not be
>intimidated by politically correct snobs who will do anything to
>distance themselves from "silliness" in a subject that the world
>regards as silly.

>And for that matter, how do you know that the New Agers aren't
>right? How do you know that "Stargate" isn't the answer? You
>don't. You just don't like them, but that has absolutely nothing
>to do with The Truth. You sound just like a scientist.


Stuart,

No one is saying that people shouldn't research, study, and
believe in this subject in any way they chose.That's not an
issue, and never has been. IMO, it's a question of how that
information is presented, and all to often it's presented as
"fact", when it's in reality idle speculation. I didn't hear
Richard say that Stargate wasn't the answer, but certainly
evidence to that effect hasn't been presented and we're seeing a
lot of discussion that would indicate that some believe that
it's fact.

If you're going to discuss this topic based on beliefs and
faith, then this has become another religion. That's not a
problem, but some of us will likely be the atheists and
agnostics out in the street trying to do actual research.


Steve








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 4

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 19:33:58 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 09:27:38 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:23:03 +0100
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:16:40 +0000
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

<snip>

>Dick,

>>You must be looking in a mirror. It was you that essentially
>>told me (and Brad Sparks) to shut-up and mind our own business
>>and let you say whatever you want to say unmolested. In fact,
>>you repeat that sentiment here. It is my distinct impression
>>that this List exists for the exhange of ideas and for each of
>>us to comment on and critique what others say to our heart's
>>content. That's exactly what I intend to do, and if you feel
>>"molested," "sneered at," or "bullied" thereby, that clearly is
>>your problem.

>If you don't have the insight or ability to appreciate what a
>negative statement your above comments make about you, then I
>can't be bothered to spell it out for you.

Please don't bother. I haven't got the foggiest idea what you
are talking about. But I won't be bullied by your sneering and
condescending insinuations. (Sauce for the gander.)

>>You ask where the scientific approach has gotten us. Let me ask
>>a very serious counter-question: What other approach is there?
>>The very fact that you asked this question suggests to me that
>>you have some very strange concept of what science is or is
>>supposed to be. In case you haven't noticed, I have been highly
>>critical of wimpy, cowardly scientists who (a) fail to
>>investigate, and/or (b) fail to speak out. However, that is no
>>comment whatsoever on the validity of scientific method.

>>You seem to suggest that science is okay outside of Ufology, but
>>there it is not working. Huh?

>>And what is your alternative? Are you one of those Greerites who
>>think ranting and raving, tossing aside the most rudimentary
>>characetr checking, and dragging in all sorts of political hot
>>potatoes is going to get us somewhere? Or are you really
>>suggesting that there is some valid alternative truth-seeking
>>methodology that is superior to that of science?

>In relation to this subject, yes there is. It's called "proof",
>something science has yet to successfully furnish, or indeed get
>anywhere close to. Of course, no other method has succeeded
>either but what is distressing to observe is your sole reliance
>on a discredited system. The term "tunnel vision" seems to have
>been invented for you. You are blinkered and irritatingly
>impatient with any suggestion or reference to any other source
>of investigation, so much so,  that one is tempted to think that
>you believe in science.

"Proof" is a substitute for science? And how is science
discredited? Alice in Wonderland lives! And you establish that
proof by...? Of course, if you have proof of something there is
no need for science to seek an answer, is there?

>Which leads neatly on to another point. How about chucking this
>intellectual snobbishness when someone says that they "believe"
>in ET and UFOs of an extraterrestrial nature? How about it huh?
>If the truth be told, the only reason people like yourself
>disdain that word in relation to this subject is so as to
>separate yourselves from the "working classes" of ufology.
>Tabloid reading, non-college educated blue collars who have sex
>with aliens "believe". Clever clogs like you "accept" or
>whatever other synonym you care to choose. And you "accept" or
>"believe" in what? A principle that is so esoteric, indifinable
>and vague as to be the subject of ridicule to the majority or
>the world population, despite what polls may say. Hmmmmm, sounds
>like a religion to me, that does.

If you are arguing the old saw that science is only a belief
system, I could refute that, but instead will just suggest that
you read some Russell and Whitehead, Principia Mathematica, and
study the foundations of science and scientific method. Science,
aside from the body of "findings," is a process or system for
investigation. Why are you so knee-jerk averse to the word
"science?" Could it be that you believe in New Age "truth?"

>I am not ashamed to say I believe and I will will not be
>intimidated by politically correct snobs who will do anything to
>distance themselves from "silliness" in a subject that the world
>regards as silly.

There's nothing wrong with believing something, as others have
pointed out. Just don't confuse your beliefs with scientific
findings. You are entitled to your faith; just recogbnize it for
what it is.

>And for that matter, how do you know that the New Agers aren't
>right? How do you know that "Stargate" isn't the answer? You
>don't. You just don't like them, but that has absolutely nothing
>to do with The Truth. You sound just like a scientist.

First, thank you for the compliment. Second, I don't know who is
right and have never cliamed to have the one truth; that
typically is the posture of faithists, not scientists. Third, I
have no faith in the sloppy, careless, often ignorant reasoning
methods used by New Agers and therefore have no confidence in
(do not believe) them.

 - Dick








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 4

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 16:02:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 09:31:31 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - White


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 13:06:59 +0000
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

<snip>

>>There is a major flaw in the scientific method. The assumption
>>that if an observation cannot be duplicated under "identical"
>>conditions by "other experimenters", then that observation is
>>not valid. This is at the root of scientific prejudice against
>>phenomena which can be demonstrated by some people but not
>>others.

>>There is not one shred of proof that all phenomena in this huge,
>>complex, multi-dimensional universe are equally performable by
>>every experimenter. There is a psychic dimension to this
>>universe, and today's version of the scientific method has been
>>stopped dead because of the faulty assumption that there isn't
>>one.

>Well, now you are off on another tangent. If a phenomenon can
>only be replicated by certain people, then that is legitimate
>grounds for being skeptical about it...not necessarily about
>rejecting it altogether. Scientific method is not (or should not
>be) as rigid as you seem to portray it.

>Legitimate science can be applied to transient phenomena, and
>wherever it may be inadequate to find answers what do you do
>then? Toss out science? Substitute what? Crystal ballls? Tea-
>leaf reading? I have argued strenuously that the [un]scientific
>objections to UFOs are fallacious, and that creative scientists
>can find ways to investigate difficult questions.

<snip>

Actually, very little would need to be "substituted." All that
would be needed to remedy this flaw is for all scientists to
change their criteria for deciding what deserves serious study.
That would lead to participation by people with "special
abilities" in their experiments.

(The scientific instruments wouldn't have to change very much at
all to start with, though removing this stumbling block will
lead to far better instrumentation, no doubt.)

One good example are the experiments which monitor the plant
equivalent of animals' EEG (neuro-electrical) activity and
observe how plant "EEG" relates to events in the human world,
say. Not every experimenter can get a rapport going with a plant
- that has been demonstrated quite well. (See "Secret Life of
Plants" by Tompkins and Bird.)

Some people with "special abilities" would turn out to be fakes.
But so what? There's no fundamental principle that says science
has to be easy or convenient. If someone turns out to be a fake,
then keep looking for others who can re-create the phenomenon to
be studied.

The funding problem is an issue, so a corollary to the change in
scientific criteria for rejecting phenomena for serious study
would be the same attitude change on the part of government and
corporations who employ scientists. I maintain that an attitude
change by scientists themselves would be felt "up the line". The
big money guys do listen to what scientists have to say.

But the payback will be _enormous_. To get from where we are now
on Earth (at least outside the classified labs) to the
performance and abilities of UFOs and their occupants would have
value far beyond our slick plasma TV screens and jet aircraft.
We are not going to get there without this fundamental change in
what I call conversationally, "the scientific method."


Eleanor White








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 4

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 16:19:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 09:33:36 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - White


>From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 16:27:35 +0100
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

<snip>

>Your last statement is exactly correct, and 'science' has known
>this for about sixty (60) years but keeps it a bit quiet.

And what a _tragedy_ that is!  This has allowed classified science
to zoom ahead, while conventional scientists are restricted to tiny
incremental improvements in instrumentation and a bit of theory
development.

And I and my colleagues are reaping the "benefit" of keeping this
advanced science "a bit quiet", as we are tortured around the clock
with technology which performs at the "UFO level".  I won't go into
detail on this List but if anyone wants more, please go to:

http://www.raven1.net


Eleanor White








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 4

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 16:33:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 09:45:48 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - White


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:37:51 -0500
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

<snip>

>Your statement that, "There is a psychic dimension to this
>universe, and today's version of the scientific method has been
>stopped dead because of the faulty assumption that there isn't
>one", belies the true bias. You believe that psychic phenomena
>exist. You provide no proof or experimental results to support
>the belief.

Well, there are lots of experiments on record, and I don't have
time to put together a master list. In my 63 years, I've heard
people tell me psychic phenomena "haven't been proven". When
asked about literature describing the experiments, they say it's
a hoax, or some part of the experiment didn't match what Big
Science deems necessary, or something along those lines.

I can't fight that. Everyone can interpret the experiments to
date as either believable, or hoaxes. I made my point, and
that's as far as I can go with it.

Take Cleve Backster's experiments with plant 'EEG', which showed
that once the experimenter has developed a rapport with his
plants, what happens to the experimenter hundreds or thousands
of miles away registers with unique EEG signatures. You can tell
me that doesn't prove a psychic connection between an
experimenter and a plant. That is your opinion, and is no more a
fact than my opinion.

I'm not going to get into a debate over the philosophy of the
scientific method - just don't have time or strength.


Eleanor White








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 4

              Re: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station

From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 17:07:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 09:48:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:17:28 -0400
>Subject: Re: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station

>I am puzzled because you describe the object that the law
>officer saw as a "boomerang", but on your webpage both the
>officer's observation and that of his wife describe only a
>"triangle". Please explain why the reference to a "boomerang",
>since, also, in the NUFORC report, only a triangular shape is
>described.

Ray;

In regards to the second part of your question, I wouldn't know
why a surveillance craft from the U.S. would keep watch over a
nuclear facility in this fashion. Assuming that the witnesses
are correct, the aircraft in question seems to be a secretive,
covert-style situation (hovering) and it doesn't seem logical
that it would be conducting this overt manner of surveillance.
This report reminds me of the one from near Maysville, Kentucky
back in '02 of an object seen by security guards along the Ohio
River near power plants, causing there to be some speculation as
to it 'patrolling' the area. See:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/maysville.html

As for the first part of your question, the descriptive term
'boomerang' vs. 'triangle' might often be a common descriptive
reference for the same object. I went back through my notes and
found the 'boomerang' reference underlined from my telephone
discussion with the officer, finding that particular term very
curious. I believe this descriptive reference was more specific
to the wife's report. The officer seemed to think they had
possibly observed the same object. Other mentions in the report
state the 'triangle' description, so I would guesstimate there
is some dual-use terminology being employed here. I did not
speak with the wife, who had the more vivid sighting, only
talking with the officer who reported on behalf of the wife.


- KY








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 4

              Re: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 20:17:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 09:53:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:17:28 -0400
>Subject: Re: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station

>>From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 01:33:17 -0400
>>Subject: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station

>>Lake County, Ohio, Law Officer reports 'hovering boomerang' near
>>Willoughby Hills, Ohio - Perry Nuclear Power Station - on June
>>16, 2004.

>>For details, see:

>>http://home.fuse.net/ufo/willoughby04.html

>>Thanks to Peter Davenport of N.U.F.O.R.C.
>>and
>>Painesville, Ohio researcher Daniel Wilson

>Hi Kenny,

<snip>

>Whatever the shape actually might have been, considering the
>proximity to a nuclear plant, I hope that what the two witnesses
>saw were surveillance craft from the U.S. and that it indicates
>a careful watch is being kept on such facilities in order to
>prevent terrorist acts.


Hello Kenny & Ray,

This is very off the cuff, so don't take me too seriously.

I somehow suspect a bit of bias here. Every trio of night lights
becomes a triangle, which may or may not become a boomerang.

If it appears over the dog-pound or the Stop-and-Rob, its
probably night lights, or Venus, Jupiter etc.

If is appears over a coal/gas fired power plant, it could be
Mars, Mercury, the Moon.....

If it appears over a Nuclear facility, well! That's gotta be a
UFO. Just check the statistics.


Best wishes

- Larry

PS: If the BVM appeared in Saudi Arabia, what would they call
her? Something polite I hope.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 4

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Brock

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 01:43:00 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 09:57:57 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Brock


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:41:42 -0400
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>Rationality - yes. Declaring areas of study as not worthy of
>"serious scientific study" because they "just seem too
>incredible to be true" or the greybeards can't explain
>them - no.

There are well-established criteria for determining whether an
"area" or "subject" is suitable for "serious scientific study",
as every individual who has studied the philosophy of science
knows. Such determinations are generally not made on the basis
of "conviction", or even when they are, you probably won't get a
University grant based on your personal convictions about the
inherent "worthiness" of a particular area of study.

Regarding "the graybeards" (I presume you mean the "nefarious
ivory tower types"; whether this jaded perspective is to be
construed as representative of some or all academicians is
anyones guess...) and their "inability to explain", I guess it
depends on why they were unable to offer explanations. One
distinct possibility is because the ideas under consideration
_were_ patently irrational. When it comes to the myriad topics
of "ufological import" making the rounds on the internet and
elsewhere today, there is enough craziness to populate the
fantasies of paranoids and half-wits from here to eternity; no
point denying it. I am quite certain it was these "extreme
fringe" ideas that Mr. Hall was referring to.

Furthermore, it should be noted that the phrases "worthy of
serious scientific study", "worthy of serious study", and
"worthy of study", are by no means equivalent, and it is a good
idea to know which of the above statements applies to one's own
area of study, as well as to others' areas.

I realize, of course, that there has been a growing tendency in
"ufology" in the past couple decades to be "politically correct"
to the degree that you don't even dare call a foolish idea
foolish. Which I have never have ascribed to. The maxim goes:
"The ideas of others must be respected." But I don't think
that's the case at all. I think it is the _right_ of others to
hold _any_ ideas they please (save for dangerously pyschotic
ones, hopefully) that should be respected. As for the ideas
themselves - well, "a spade's a spade".

It is, of course, well to avoid waxing "contemptuous" when
critiquing the ideas of others, but whether or not an individual
in this "biz" does that depends on

1.) how much he/she has been kicked around, labeled a debunker,
etc., for offering polite dissenting opinion, to the point that
he/she ceases to care about the polite amenities.

2.) How heavily the one offering the critique has been barraged
by the narratives of self-styled contactee types with
persecution complexes, and whose accounts, besides being fraught
with internal inconsistencies and scientific impossibilities and
scores of meaningless New-Age "buzzwords", are also mutually
exclusive when evaluated in contrast to OTHER such accounts from
other self-styled contactee types with persecution complexes.

3.) How many times the one offering the critique has had his
ideas passed over by the media, in favor of interviews with
"Space Brothers, Come On Down!!!!!" types.


Rod Brock

=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
http://aamb.blogspot.com/







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 4

             Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 06:10:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 10:01:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto - Hebert


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:25:15 -0400
>Subject: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto

>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:40:00 -0700
>>Subject: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto

<snip>

>>The main reason of this post is to let you know about what the
>>Mexican scientific community thinks and feels about the
>>erroneous delivery of the Mexican Air Force FLIR's sighting
>>video to the last idoneous person from SEDENA's Secretary
>>General Clemente Ricardo Vega Garcia.

<snip>

>Thank you, Capt. Franz, for the alerting us to this document and
>for the translation.

>I hope they haven't been downgraded but if they have, they won't
>be the first to be downgraded for reporting a UFO.

Hi, Dr. Maccabee:

I'm trying to ascertain exactly which individuals outside of the
Mexican Air Force and/or Department of Defense have been allowed
to review the original, unedited FLIR video footage and
currently have copies of said video in their possession.

As far as I know, only two people have been given copies of the
original FLIR footage - Dr. Maccabee and Jaime Maussan. Does
anyone know if anyone, other than Dr. Bruce Maccabee and Mr.
Jaime Maussan, received copies of the unedited, original FLIR
video footage?

According to UNAM:

"We asked that the materials, videos, technical information and
recordings of the event are to be made available for the Mexican
scientific institutions for their study. It is sad that this
material has been provided to public personalities or other
people's rather than Mexican science, whereas to the members of
the Institute of Astronomy and Nuclear Sciences of the UNAM has
refused them saying the "it was classified material"."

Dr. Maccabee,

1. Have you been told or informed of any stipulations (from
the Mexican Air Force, Department of Defense or Mr. Maussan)
regarding the release or distribution of the footage to the
general public at any time since the footage was released
and you received your copy of the original FLIR footage?

2. Were any copyrights indicated by anyone in reference to
the original footage?

3. Has the Mexican Air Force, Mexican Department of Defense or
any authority representing these entities or the Mexican
government told you, or Mr. Maussan, at any time not to share
your copy of the original FLIR footage with others?

As a researcher, I would like very much to review an unedited
copy of the original FLIR video footage taken on March 5, 2004.
I want to know what needs to be done to get the original,
unedited FLIR footage released to the general public. The
Mexican Air Force, DoD or Mexican government may now refuse to
release any further copies but there are at least two copies
existing in the UFO community.

If it would not cause infringements of any copyright laws,
distribution is not prohibited by any Mexican authorities and
the footage is considered public domain (both in Mexico and in
the USA), I will gladly offer to make DVD's or VHS copies to
share with others for reimbursement of the cost of materials
(DVD or VHS tape) and S&H only. I have a DVD recorder and
several DVD players that I use to make my own slide shows and
DVD's of home movies that I share with my family. It is almost
as fast as making a VHS copy. I am offering my time and my
equipment, for free, to help make these materials available to
anyone interested.

I appreciate all the work you have done in reference to
analyzing the data in this case, Bruce. Thank you, so much, for
donating your time and energies to this study.


Sincerely,

A. Hebert







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 4

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 14:12:51 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 13:24:06 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 16:02:56 -0400
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 13:06:59 +0000
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>There is a major flaw in the scientific method. The assumption
>>>that if an observation cannot be duplicated under "identical"
>>>conditions by "other experimenters", then that observation is
>>>not valid. This is at the root of scientific prejudice against
>>>phenomena which can be demonstrated by some people but not
>>>others.

>>>There is not one shred of proof that all phenomena in this huge,
>>>complex, multi-dimensional universe are equally performable by
>>>every experimenter. There is a psychic dimension to this
>>>universe, and today's version of the scientific method has been
>>>stopped dead because of the faulty assumption that there isn't
>>>one.

>>Well, now you are off on another tangent. If a phenomenon can
>>only be replicated by certain people, then that is legitimate
>>grounds for being skeptical about it...not necessarily about
>>rejecting it altogether. Scientific method is not (or should not
>>be) as rigid as you seem to portray it.

>>Legitimate science can be applied to transient phenomena, and
>>wherever it may be inadequate to find answers what do you do
>>then? Toss out science? Substitute what? Crystal ballls? Tea-
>>leaf reading? I have argued strenuously that the [un]scientific
>>objections to UFOs are fallacious, and that creative scientists
>>can find ways to investigate difficult questions.

>Actually, very little would need to be "substituted." All that
>would be needed to remedy this flaw is for all scientists to
>change their criteria for deciding what deserves serious study.
>That would lead to participation by people with "special
>abilities" in their experiments.

>(The scientific instruments wouldn't have to change very much at
>all to start with, though removing this stumbling block will
>lead to far better instrumentation, no doubt.)

>One good example are the experiments which monitor the plant
>equivalent of animals' EEG (neuro-electrical) activity and
>observe how plant "EEG" relates to events in the human world,
>say. Not every experimenter can get a rapport going with a plant
>- that has been demonstrated quite well. (See "Secret Life of
>Plants" by Tompkins and Bird.)

>Some people with "special abilities" would turn out to be fakes.
>But so what? There's no fundamental principle that says science
>has to be easy or convenient. If someone turns out to be a fake,
>then keep looking for others who can re-create the phenomenon to
>be studied.

>The funding problem is an issue, so a corollary to the change in
>scientific criteria for rejecting phenomena for serious study
>would be the same attitude change on the part of government and
>corporations who employ scientists. I maintain that an attitude
>change by scientists themselves would be felt "up the line". The
>big money guys do listen to what scientists have to say.

>But the payback will be _enormous_. To get from where we are now
>on Earth (at least outside the classified labs) to the
>performance and abilities of UFOs and their occupants would have
>value far beyond our slick plasma TV screens and jet aircraft.
>We are not going to get there without this fundamental change in
>what I call conversationally, "the scientific method."


Eleanor,

I don't have much disagreement with what you say here in regard
to science (though not everyone would accept "Secret Life of
Plants" as evidence of anything significant). But the
fundamental change you recommend as necessary would be in human
attitudes and prejudices, not in scientific method. That's the
basic point I have been trying to make throughout this so-called
"J-Rod" thread.


 - Dick








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 4

                             Devil's Hole Nevada

From: Teri Hayes <truthspupl.nul>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 07:54:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 13:26:06 -0400
Subject: Devil's Hole Nevada


Hello List,

If anyone is interested I have created a web site at Tripod with
the remainder of the photos that were taken at Devil's Hole in
the Ash Meadows Wildlife Refuge.

I find them of interest.

You may visit:

http://peterrabbitt152.tripod.com

if you'd like to view the photos and perhaps offer a suggestion
as to the cause of the anomalies presented.

Have a great 4th of July All!


Teri Hayes

truthspupl.nul









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 4

                        Re: Sixto Paz Wells - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:37:07 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 13:37:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Sixto Paz Wells - Gevaerd


>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:48:09 +0100
>Subject: Sixto Paz Wells

>On Tuesday I attended a talk given by the Peruvian contactee
>Sixto Paz Wells, who was on a rare visit to the UK. With the
>current focus on alien abductions, it's interesting from a
>ufological perspective to come across someone whose story is
>reminiscent of the claims made by people like Adamski, Bethurum,
>Fry and Menger.

>Have any List members met Sixto or come across his
>Rahma Group, and was any objective investigation carried
>out into the mass sightings he claimed occurred in 1974?

>For those interested in the story, here's a link to an
>interview with Sixto Paz Wells:

>http://66.102.9.104/search?q=3Dcache:5LsSK0xMM1wJ:www.mysterious-america.ne=
t/sixtopazwellsint.html+sixto+paz+wells&hl=3Den

>If the link doesn't work, type Sixto Paz Wells into Google,
>without using quotation marks. The interview should be at the
>top, on the Mysterious America website. But it's only available
>on the cached site.

>Additionally, one of his books, The Invitation, is available
>in English:

>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1887472290/103-5184505-141985=
3?v=3Dglance

>http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1887472290/qid=3D1088868985/sr=3D1=
-4/ref=3Dsr_1_8_4/202-0737210-0267868

Hi, Nick.

I met Sixto many times and interviewed him both in Brazil and in
Peru. He attended to some lectures around here.

While in Peru, I visited the Chilca beach, about 100 km SW from
Lima, where he and his brother, Carlos Paz Wells, claim to have
had a close encounter with aliens. They say that the contact was
witnessed by several local people journalists from several
countries, including the Spanish (now) best-seller Juan Jose
Benitez, very popular in Latin America and writer of Operation
Trojan Horse (several volumes).

I interviewed Benitez in 1996 and he completely denied have been
a witness to that claimed contact. I interviewed several people
from Chilca and none ever remembered the alleged UFO sighting...

While Sixto has kept his trajectory and history very original
since the beginning, despite the many discrepancies, his brother
Carlos Paz did not. He split Rama (without H) Group in two in
Lima and brought part of it to Brazil, in the 80s, where it was
named Amar Project (Love Project). For years, he spread several
lies all over the Brazilian UFO community in conferences and
symposia. He even spread fake pictures of alleged UFOs, taken by
some other people. While in Brazil, until some 5-6 years ago,
he was largely known as a sect leader. When I publicly
confronted him about his many lies, he filed a law suit against
me and lost. Then he tried again in a higher judiciary level,
and lost again.

A few months later, when I wwas about to engage a law suit
against him, he decided he was full of being what he was and
assumed his "female side", becoming Veronica Lane and changing
his life entirely. It is claimed that he took a sex-change
surgery and now he is living in Canada and is away from
Ufology, despite having a book recently published in Brazil.
After the sex change, his group almost disappeared and the most
inside members have declared how frustrated they where for
believing and dedicating  their lives to someone who lied even
about his own sexuality.

Check it out at: http://www.veronicalane.com.br/

Nowadays, the boys' sister Rose Mary has new claims about the
contacts and most of their content is simply opposed and
contradictory to everything the brothers ever said.

Who can we trust? Certainly, the only person to be trusted is
their father, a pioneer of Peruvian Ufology and serious UFO
researcher, Jose Carlos Paz Garc=EDa Corrochano


Hope this info is useful.

A. J.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 4

              Re: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:42:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 13:39:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 20:17:46 -0700
>Subject: Re: Hovering Boomerang Near Nuclear Power Station

<snip>

>Hello Kenny & Ray,

>This is very off the cuff, so don't take me too seriously.

>I somehow suspect a bit of bias here. Every trio of night lights
>becomes a triangle, which may or may not become a boomerang.

>If it appears over the dog-pound or the Stop-and-Rob, its
>probably night lights, or Venus, Jupiter etc.

>If is appears over a coal/gas fired power plant, it could be
>Mars, Mercury, the Moon.....

>If it appears over a Nuclear facility, well! That's gotta be a
>UFO. Just check the statistics.

:)

Ray Stanford

"You know my method.It is founded upon the observance of
trifles." -- Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 4

                    Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 18:34:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 13:51:25 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 19:33:58 +0000
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:23:03 +0100
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:16:40 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

><snip>

>>Dick,

>>>You must be looking in a mirror. It was you that essentially
>>>told me (and Brad Sparks) to shut-up and mind our own business
>>>and let you say whatever you want to say unmolested. In fact,
>>>you repeat that sentiment here. It is my distinct impression
>>>that this List exists for the exhange of ideas and for each of
>>>us to comment on and critique what others say to our heart's
>>>content. That's exactly what I intend to do, and if you feel
>>>"molested," "sneered at," or "bullied" thereby, that clearly is
>>>your problem.

>>If you don't have the insight or ability to appreciate what a
>>negative statement your above comments make about you, then I
>>can't be bothered to spell it out for you.

>Please don't bother. I haven't got the foggiest idea what you
>are talking about. But I won't be bullied by your sneering and
>condescending insinuations. (Sauce for the gander.)

I prefer my fowl plain and unadorned thank you.

<snip>

>>In relation to this subject, yes there is. It's called "proof",
>>something science has yet to successfully furnish, or indeed get
>>anywhere close to. Of course, no other method has succeeded
>>either but what is distressing to observe is your sole reliance
>>on a discredited system. The term "tunnel vision" seems to have
>>been invented for you. You are blinkered and irritatingly
>>impatient with any suggestion or reference to any other source
>>of investigation, so much so,  that one is tempted to think that
>>you believe in science.

>"Proof" is a substitute for science? And how is science
>discredited?

By failing to come up with any, or at least anything of a
positive nature. What irritates is this banner carrying belief
in this Holy Grail of Pactice that you are convinced is going to
lead us to Paradise. After everything that has and hasn't
happened in this subject, your blinding religious zeal and
passion for scientific methodology is touchingly naive.

I love science. I think it's cuddly. Don't you just want to hug
it sometimes? But to quote an old friend of yours, in relation
to Ufology, it's in default. Big time.

<snip>

>If you are arguing the old saw that science is only a belief
>system, I could refute that, but instead will just suggest that
>you read some Russell and Whitehead, Principia Mathematica, and
>study the foundations of science and scientific method. Science,
>aside from the body of "findings," is a process or system for
>investigation. Why are you so knee-jerk averse to the word
>"science?" Could it be that you believe in New Age "truth?"

And why do you wail to the heavens when New Agism is mentioned?
Is it because there are lots of women in it? J'accuse! You are a
mysogonist masquarding as a ufologist.

Nah, I don't have much time for New Agist theories either. But
neither do I go swinging my cave man club about when it gets
mentioned. Here's the trick Dick. I listen. Who knows? I might
actually learn something. And, with the admitted exception of
one English sceptic, I don't growl at people in my best Walter
Mathau fashion if they offer ideas contrary to mine.

>>I am not ashamed to say I believe and I will will not be
>>intimidated by politically correct snobs who will do anything to
>>distance themselves from "silliness" in a subject that the world
>>regards as silly.

>There's nothing wrong with believing something, as others have
>pointed out. Just don't confuse your beliefs with scientific
>findings. You are entitled to your faith; just recogbnize it for
>what it is.

Chambers Concise; faith, n. trust or confidence. Okay, I'll buy
that. I have absolute confidence in the ETH. And try following
the drift of this discussion. Where have I even hinted at
suggesting that "my beliefs" are scientific findings? In case
you can't keep up here, I am eschewing science in relation to
Uology.

>>And for that matter, how do you know that the New Agers aren't
>>right? How do you know that "Stargate" isn't the answer? You
>>don't. You just don't like them, but that has absolutely nothing
>>to do with The Truth. You sound just like a scientist.

>First, thank you for the compliment. Second, I don't know who is
>right and have never cliamed to have the one truth; that
>typically is the posture of faithists, not scientists.

But you do claim to have "The One Method". That is the posture
of scientists. There is actually an alternative. Have you
considered channelling? That way, you might get lucky and you
can talk to an alien directly.

>Third, I have no faith in the sloppy, careless, often ignorant reasoning
>methods used by New Agers and therefore have no confidence in
>(do not believe) them.

Oh lighten up.....


Stuart Miller







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 5

                      Re: Devil's Hole Nevada - Rosati

From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 14:35:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 07:24:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Devil's Hole Nevada - Rosati


>From: Teri Hayes <truthspupl.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 07:54:22 -0700
>Subject: Devil's Hole Nevada


>If anyone is interested I have created a web site at Tripod with
>the remainder of the photos that were taken at Devil's Hole in
>the Ash Meadows Wildlife Refuge.

>I find them of interest.

>You may visit:

>http://peterrabbitt152.tripod.com

>if you'd like to view the photos and perhaps offer a suggestion
>as to the cause of the anomalies presented.


Hi

On this page:

http://peterrabbitt152.tripod.com/id2.html

the fact that the "flare" is the same shape in all pictures, and when you
turn the camera from "portrait" to "landscape" orientation, the "flare"
turns with it, suggests that the origin is in the camera.


Dante








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 5

                     Wendy Connors Comes Out Of The Cave

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:50:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 07:53:43 -0400
Subject: Wendy Connors Comes Out Of The Cave


Greetings to the Listarians and Lurkers:

On Saturday, July 10, 2004, I will once again be prattling along
(i.e., making a fool of myself) with our esteemed UFO UpDates
List Master Extraordinaire, Errol Bruce-Knapp on his Strange
Days... Indeed radio program.

We will be playing lots of audio clips from my newest
compilation of Ufology's audio history entitled, "CE IV: An
Audio History of Alien Abduction and Animal Mutilation"
containing over 25.5 hours of audio. Lots of fun that night and
you will hear some really interesting clips, including some from
the Barney and Betty Hill hypnosis sessions, APRO's James
Lorenzen, Mrs. Burl Lewis on "Snippy" the horse mutilation and
John Fuller's encounter with a UFO.

Strange Days... Indeed is heard on Newstalk 1010 CFRB in
Toronto and CJAD 800 in Montreal beginning at 9:00 PM EDT. For
internet listeners, tune in at:

www.virtuallystrange.com/ufo/sdi/program/

Also, if it pleases the List, I have been invited for an
interview on Ted Philips and Linda Eastburn's radio show,
Anomalies, July 11, 2004. You can listen in by logging on to:

www.newstalk560.com

The show previous to Anomalies is not live, so you'll need
to wait until 11:00 PM CDT before logging on to the site.

Also, Stuart Miller of UFO Review recently did an interview
with me, which will appear in the next issue (what a great read
with tons of information!) for those interested in the Audio
History Of Ufology project. His website is:

www.uforeview.net/

A big thank you to all who have been supporting the audio
preservation project and also for the many wonderful emails you
have sent. They, alone, keep me going.
In August/September the 5th volume in the series will be
available. It's entitled, ETH: Dr. James E. McDonald - An Audio
Retrospective.

Please forgive all of the crass self-promoting. How
embarrassing! Now I'm going to go back to my cave. <G>


Thank you,

Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 5

                Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:59:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 07:57:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto -


>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 06:10:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:25:15 -0400
>>Subject: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto


>I'm trying to ascertain exactly which individuals outside of the
>Mexican Air Force and/or Department of Defense have been allowed
>to review the original, unedited FLIR video footage and
>currently have copies of said video in their possession.

>As far as I know, only two people have been given copies of the
>original FLIR footage - Dr. Maccabee and Jaime Maussan. Does
>anyone know if anyone, other than Dr. Bruce Maccabee and Mr.
>Jaime Maussan, received copies of the unedited, original FLIR
>video footage?

>According to UNAM:

>"We asked that the materials, videos, technical information and
>recordings of the event are to be made available for the Mexican
>scientific institutions for their study. It is sad that this
>material has been provided to public personalities or other
>people's rather than Mexican science, whereas to the members of
>the Institute of Astronomy and Nuclear Sciences of the UNAM has
>refused them saying the "it was classified material"."

You would have to ask Jaime Maussan how many people have
received the video. I know of several throughout the world
Furthermore I have been told it is now at:

http://www.pixcells.dk/mexico/mexicoDODstream.wmv

>1. Have you been told or informed of any stipulations (from
>the Mexican Air Force, Department of Defense or Mr. Maussan)
>regarding the release or distribution of the footage to the
>general public at any time since the footage was released
>and you received your copy of the original FLIR footage?

No.

>2. Were any copyrights indicated by anyone in reference to
>the original footage?

No.

>3. Has the Mexican Air Force, Mexican Department of Defense or
>any authority representing these entities or the Mexican
>government told you, or Mr. Maussan, at any time not to share
>your copy of the original FLIR footage with others?

No.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 5

                     Re: Sixto Paz Wells - Sanchez-Ocejo

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami.nul>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 14:23:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 08:00:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Sixto Paz Wells - Sanchez-Ocejo


>From: A. J. Gevaerd <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:37:07 -0300
>Subject: Re: Sixto Paz Wells

>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:48:09 +0100
>>Subject: Sixto Paz Wells

<snip>

I also knew the Pa'z family, since 1976, and agree with Gevaerd's
information.


Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 5

                    Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:50:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 08:13:08 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:57:29 -0400
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:23:03 +0100
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge


Steve,

>No one is saying that people shouldn't research, study, and
>believe in this subject in any way they chose.That's not an
>issue, and never has been. IMO, it's a question of how that
>information is presented, and all to often it's presented as
>"fact", when it's in reality idle speculation. I didn't hear
>Richard say that Stargate wasn't the answer, but certainly
>evidence to that effect hasn't been presented and we're seeing a
>lot of discussion that would indicate that some believe that
>it's fact.

I disagree. Terri (I think) said they had been told by someone
that Stargate was the real deal. I chirped in and said it was a
neat idea c/w Graham Hancock's work. With respect, that hardly
amounts to anyone stating they believe Stargate is the answer to
everything.

>If you're going to discuss this topic based on beliefs and
>faith, then this has become another religion. That's not a
>problem, but some of us will likely be the atheists and
>agnostics out in the street trying to do actual research.

Belief equals religion. belief doesn't. This is quite a
ridiculous equation that you and many others make. On that
basis, the world is totally overun with religion. I believe in
the ability of my dog to chase a cat. I've never seen him do it
but I believe he can. Surely you're not going to claim that I
worship at the altar of Benji the mutt?

There is a strong suspicion that this automatic reference to
religion when one talks about belief in ufology is nothing more
or less than the usual spin of academic elitist snobbery.
Religion is for the masses, the unwashed, the stupid. Educated
people know better. It is a device for self justification at the
expense of others, puffing up ones own ego to confirm one's
separatness from the plebs.

I don't condem that per se. People are people. But it is
disapointing and does rather tend to confirm that a higher level
of intelligence doesn't necessarily imply a greater level of
personal understanding.


Stuart Miller






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 5

                          Changes At The WHY? Files

From: Geoffrey Richardson <geoff.nul>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 23:48:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 08:18:00 -0400
Subject: Changes At The WHY? Files


Due to circumstances beyond my control "The WHY Files" have a
new address - www.thewhyfiles.net I would be grateful if any
links to The WHY? Files could be amended to the new address.

There have been a number of updates and additional files
added to "The WHY? Files" - see:
The Mexican C26A UFO footage and updates

Animal Mutilations - the South American UFO Flap continues!
Black Triangles

V-Shaped Craft

Geoff Richardson
The (authentic) WHY? Files
(established September 1999)
http://www.thewhyfiles.net







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 5

                    On Tonight: UFO Files - UFO Hot Spots

From: Louise Lowry <SHnSASSY1.nul>
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 06:50:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 08:21:35 -0400
Subject: On Tonight: UFO Files - UFO Hot Spots


This will be running on the US History Channel tonight. Please
check your local listings for time. The time, below, is Eastern.

Love & Light

Louise

---

8-9pm -- UFO Files - UFO Hot Spots

For those who study the UFO phenomenon, "UFO Hot Spots" are
places around the globe known for a long history of UFO
sightings and reports. From Brazil to Mexico, from Washington
State to Florida, multiple witnesses, including air traffic
controllers and even military personnel, confirm that something
unexplained is repeatedly happening in the night sky. Tales of
alien abductions, bizarre and chilling photographs of UFOs, and
hours of videotape all abound as we search for UFO Hot Spots.


World Of The Strange http://www.worldofthestrange.com/
Para-Discussion List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Para-Discuss/







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 5

                       Latest From The Pro From Dover

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 06:52:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 08:28:02 -0400
Subject: Latest From The Pro From Dover


...Had a surprise dinner with my professional FLIR guy the
 night before last - he'd scoff at this himself, but think a
young Chuck Yeager for cutting-edge helicopters - and he spoke
with some enthusiasm about the Mexican FLIR footage.
He said that he'd taken the disc I'd provided him, to work and
that another expert professional was interested in looking at it
critically and was in possession of it at this time.
Additionally, when I told him about the very detailed and
complicated internet explication regarding "waste gas fires from
oilrigs", he actually chuckled.
He allowed that he'd actually seen those gas fires proposed, and
he was _quite_ clear that what was photographed on the Mexican
DVD did not resemble his actual experience with same.
An added treat... another fellow at the table - this one a
project boss for computer aviation simulations procurement -
relayed a series of sightings he's had out in the field at
night on darkened military reservations, with night vision
devices, regarding unidentified lights - sometimes in formation
- performing impossible aerodynamic maneuvers.
I wasn't being mocked, reader. I felt _well_ served and
validated last night... and it's a validation that transfers,
folks. <g>
I'll keep ya'll posted on subsequent reports as they occur.


alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 5

                              UFO "Only Venus"

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:09:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 09:22:58 -0400
Subject: UFO "Only Venus"


Source: The Daily News - South Africa

http://www.dailynews.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=500&fArticleId=2138596

07-05-04


UFO was only Venus, says prof

By Bhavna Sookha

A professor from the University of KwaZulu-Natal has quashed
reports that there were sightings of an unidentified flying
object in Phoenix last week.

Arthur Hughes, professor of physics at the University of
KwaZulu-Natal, who viewed the video footage, said the object on
film was not an unidentified flying object.

"It couldn't have been a fireball as they don't usually last that
long. It also could not have been a satellite as they pass over
quite quickly. Satellites travel around the earth in 90 minutes,"
he said.

When questioned about whether the university had received any
other calls about unusual sightings last Sunday, Hughes said that
he had received no other calls.

"I have also not heard of other reports of unusual sightings
during that period. It was the planet Venus. Venus is visible in
the early parts of the morning," he said.

But the woman who saw the object, Roshnie Naidu, says that she
knows what she saw and it was definitely not Venus.

"Initially, I was very sceptical about UFOs and alien sightings
but after what I saw on Sunday morning, I am more open-minded,"
she said.

Naidu, however, says that if the light she had seen had been
Venus, it would not have moved around so much and changed shape
so often.

"Initially it was not so high up in the sky and it changed shape
quite often. It became elongated and gave off light and the area
was very well lit up by this light," she said.

Naidu's husband, Shrirama, who also saw the huge light, said they
had expected people to be sceptical.

"We expected this reaction. But both of us could not have been
mistaken," he said. "We are going to get a second opinion."

The Naidus said they had received numerous calls from family,
friends and strangers congratulating them on seeing the UFO.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 5

                        Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:21:29 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 12:08:55 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Ledger


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:09:11 -0700
>Subject: UFO "Only Venus"

>Source: The Daily News - South Africa
>http://www.dailynews.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=500&fArticleId=2138596
>07-05-04

>UFO was only Venus, says prof
>By Bhavna Sookha

>A professor from the University of KwaZulu-Natal has quashed
>reports that there were sightings of an unidentified flying
>object in Phoenix last week.

>Arthur Hughes, professor of physics at the University of
>KwaZulu-Natal, who viewed the video footage, said the object on
>film was not an unidentified flying object.

>"It couldn't have been a fireball as they don't usually last that
>long. It also could not have been a satellite as they pass over
>quite quickly. Satellites travel around the earth in 90 minutes,"
>he said.

<snip>

>"I have also not heard of other reports of unusual sightings
>during that period. It was the planet Venus. Venus is visible in
>the early parts of the morning," he said.

That's some reason. I wonder if this man of science did the
calculations. The much toted Venus is trotted out whenever a UFO
is sighted and in most cases is not the culprit despite what is
proffered.

It's strange, don't you think, that one can go dozens of years,
looking at the night sky, seeing Venus, then suddenly one night
it becomes a UFO. I hope this scientist isn't as sloppy with the
rest of his work.

Anywhere we can actually view the video?


Don Ledger









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 5

                        Conscious Abductees Question

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 19:58:21 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 12:55:32 -0400
Subject: Conscious Abductees Question


I'm looking for any abductee data where the abductee or
abductees were conscious during their experience and did not
have to undergo hypnosis to glean data.

Also, any statistics from any of you researchers on the
percentages of reported abductions wherein the victim was
conscious during their abduction (s) please.

Thanks.


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

               Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 07:58:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:17:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:42:36 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:10:26 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>Hopefully the members of the "American Psychological Society,"
>>i.e., the readers of the "The Journal Psychological Science"
>>will note that any conclusion(s) of Dr. McKnally's study is
>>flawed, because the components of the experiment are flawed. He
>>has separated "PTSD victims" from "abductee victims" without
>>merit, and I propose, scientifically speaking, that until he can
>>prove that the events described by an "abductee victim" have not
>>occurred, then his protocol is flawed, therefore; any
>>conclusions based on this study would have to be re-evaluated.

John,

>If you read the paper carefully you will see the main concern of
>McNally et. al. is to investigate the controversy concerning
>recovered memories of trauma. One of the main problems with this
>is that some people argue that the fact that people recalling
>traumatic experiences show strong psychophysiological responses
>indicates that their stories must be literally true.

The question McNally poses is, "Is recollection of "highly
improbable traumatic ex-periences" [emphasis added] accompanied
by psychophysiological responses indic-ative of intense emotion?"

>McNally notes, though, " ... we found that adults reporting
>recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse were more likely to
>exhibit false recognition of nonpresented words than were adults
>who reported always remembering their abuse. A subsequent study
>revealed similar false memory effects in people reporting
>recovered memories of abduction."

He describes an abuctees experience as this, "All abductees
reported at least one episode of apparent sleep pa-ralysis
accompanied by "hypnopompic hallucinations," [emphasis added]
usually figures hovering near their beds, flashing lights,
buzzing sounds, and tingling sensations.

>In other words, the problem is in attempting to distinguish
>recall of subjective experiences from recall of real events.
>McNally et. al. attempt to do this by comparing the _details_ of
>the abductees' reactions with those of their control group, and
>also with their records of studies of people with PTSD (although
>it is not made clear here whether such people who presumably
>claimed to have had "plausible" experiences actually had them
>verified).

This of course is the point; he's taking measurements from two
groups, one which he "believes" are having "false traumatic
memories" and one that isn't, without providing data to support
or oppose either group.

>In a footnote, it says that "For the abductees, the abduction
>and stressful scripts were physiologically indistinguishable ...
>In contrast, participants with PTSD usually exhibit greater
>responses to trauma than to other stressful scripts." _Very
>interesting,_

He also says, "Although improbable traumatic memories (e.g.,
being sexually probed on a spaceship) provoke physiological
reactions comparable to those provoked by more conventional and
verifiable traumatic mem-ories (e.g., a firefight in Vietnam),
one should not conclude that PTSD patients are reporting false
memories of trauma."

>Although this paper by McNally et. al. is short, it is certainly
>not simple. Those who are keen to pronounce instant judgement on
>it should realise that it is obviously not intended to be the
>last word on the subject. Obviously the questions of the
>reliability of memory, how to distinguish true from false
>memories, and how false memories are generated, are very
>important, and no doubt there will be much more published on
>this topic.

>John Harney

There is no argument about the importance of studying false
memory phenomenon; my point, as previously mentioned, is that if
one is to "apply science" to a study, or an experiment, then the
components have to be verifiable, and not "assumed," or in my
view the entire activity is flawed, as is any conclusions etc.

Regards,
Frank Warren








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 07:58:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:17:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:42:36 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:10:26 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>Hopefully the members of the "American Psychological Society,"
>>i.e., the readers of the "The Journal Psychological Science"
>>will note that any conclusion(s) of Dr. McKnally's study is
>>flawed, because the components of the experiment are flawed. He
>>has separated "PTSD victims" from "abductee victims" without
>>merit, and I propose, scientifically speaking, that until he can
>>prove that the events described by an "abductee victim" have not
>>occurred, then his protocol is flawed, therefore; any
>>conclusions based on this study would have to be re-evaluated.

John,

>If you read the paper carefully you will see the main concern of
>McNally et. al. is to investigate the controversy concerning
>recovered memories of trauma. One of the main problems with this
>is that some people argue that the fact that people recalling
>traumatic experiences show strong psychophysiological responses
>indicates that their stories must be literally true.

The question McNally poses is, "Is recollection of "highly
improbable traumatic ex-periences" [emphasis added] accompanied
by psychophysiological responses indic-ative of intense emotion?"

>McNally notes, though, " ... we found that adults reporting
>recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse were more likely to
>exhibit false recognition of nonpresented words than were adults
>who reported always remembering their abuse. A subsequent study
>revealed similar false memory effects in people reporting
>recovered memories of abduction."

He describes an abuctees experience as this, "All abductees
reported at least one episode of apparent sleep pa-ralysis
accompanied by "hypnopompic hallucinations," [emphasis added]
usually figures hovering near their beds, flashing lights,
buzzing sounds, and tingling sensations.

>In other words, the problem is in attempting to distinguish
>recall of subjective experiences from recall of real events.
>McNally et. al. attempt to do this by comparing the _details_ of
>the abductees' reactions with those of their control group, and
>also with their records of studies of people with PTSD (although
>it is not made clear here whether such people who presumably
>claimed to have had "plausible" experiences actually had them
>verified).

This of course is the point; he's taking measurements from two
groups, one which he "believes" are having "false traumatic
memories" and one that isn't, without providing data to support
or oppose either group.

>In a footnote, it says that "For the abductees, the abduction
>and stressful scripts were physiologically indistinguishable ...
>In contrast, participants with PTSD usually exhibit greater
>responses to trauma than to other stressful scripts." _Very
>interesting,_

He also says, "Although improbable traumatic memories (e.g.,
being sexually probed on a spaceship) provoke physiological
reactions comparable to those provoked by more conventional and
verifiable traumatic mem-ories (e.g., a firefight in Vietnam),
one should not conclude that PTSD patients are reporting false
memories of trauma."

>Although this paper by McNally et. al. is short, it is certainly
>not simple. Those who are keen to pronounce instant judgement on
>it should realise that it is obviously not intended to be the
>last word on the subject. Obviously the questions of the
>reliability of memory, how to distinguish true from false
>memories, and how false memories are generated, are very
>important, and no doubt there will be much more published on
>this topic.

>John Harney

There is no argument about the importance of studying false
memory phenomenon; my point, as previously mentioned, is that if
one is to "apply science" to a study, or an experiment, then the
components have to be verifiable, and not "assumed," or in my
view the entire activity is flawed, as is any conclusions etc.

Regards,
Frank Warren








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 15:06:50 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:27:44 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Dickenson


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 16:04:36 -0400
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>There is a major flaw in the scientific method. The assumption
>that if an observation cannot be duplicated under "identical"
>conditions by "other experimenters", then that observation is
>not valid. This is at the root of scientific prejudice against
>phenomena which can be demonstrated by some people but not
>others.

As we've seen (earlier post), mainstream science covers-up the
"Sheep-and-Goat Effect"

http://www.psy.gu.se/EJP/EJPMillar79.pdf

Quote "the difference between sheep and goats was unquestionably
significant, with a probability of 3 x 10-5" I.e. belief
positively influences physical phenomena, skepticism negatively.

Or, in allegorical terms "residual magic survives, even when
surrounded by skeptics".

That's despite generations of biased 'rational-skeptic' (r-s)
education, a biased r-s science elite (badsci.txt in Google) and
biased r-s politicos (badsci2.txt - Google).

Now, it could be thought that a believer surrounded by _more_
believers would produce increasingly strong effects.

How much stronger? Well, much organic growth is dictated by
'Fibonacci Numbers'

http://ulcar.uml.edu/~iag/CS/Fibonacci.html

which could give a fairly fast (and increasing) rate of increase
of possible potency of belief.

Or, as we're talking of "ideas", the period-doubling of
'dynamically increased rates of increases' - Feigenbaum's
constant - could apply.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/fractal-faq/section-10.html

What would either of those mean in practice? That 'belief's
positive effects on physical phenomena' could expand / swell
exponentially if triggered by just a little education and
training.

Or, in allegorical terms - 'Magic could return as a Force'

(It's statistically feasible - think about it)


cheers

Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 08:58:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:29:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:48:44 -0400
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:10:26 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

><snip>

>>Hopefully the members of the "American Psychological Society,"
>>i.e., the readers of the "The Journal Psychological Science"
>>will note that any conclusion(s) of Dr. McKnally's study is
>>flawed, because the components of the experiment are flawed. He
>>has separated "PTSD victims" from "abductee victims" without
>>merit, and I propose, scientifically speaking, that until he can
>>prove that the events described by an "abductee victim" have not
>>occurred, then his protocol is flawed, therefore; any
>>conclusions based on this study would have to be re-evaluated.

Steven,

>Science is not built on theories developed from proving the
>negative, so psychologists (scientifically speaking) would never
>have to prove that something didn't occur. Those making claims
>that something did occur would have to provide the evidence to
>support the claim, and if that evidence is solely annecdotal,
>then that's the only foundation it has to go on.

Scientific theorem is based on observation of a phenomena and
the recording of the facts. Until the "traumatic memories of
anyone involved in a study or experiment" can be verified, then
to predispose them into a category of "false or true" is
unscientific. Yes, conventional science says it is more
plausible for someone to have been in a fire-fight in Vietnam,
then to have been abducted by aliens, however; that doesn't mean
it didn't happen, and to say it didn't without any supportive
data is only speculation at best.

>I'm not trying to be harsh, but let's not simply throw out the
>scientific process, or try to redefine it to meet our needs. I
>have personal friends who are "abductees" and certain have
>involvement with numerous researchers involved in that end of
>the field, and IMO any Journal article that examines the field
>is a good thing. We may not agree with it, but it lends
>credibility to the validity of the topic under discussion.

In my view, it is the "scientific process" that wasn't adhered
to in McNalley's study. Moreover, I wouldn't personally agree
with the idea of "any" Journal article being a good thing for
the abduction phenomenon, but would obviously support an
"unbiased" examination of the subject.

>>He, like his colleagues, as you have pointed out are biased,
>>which of course is fine, when reading a journal, however;
>>allowing bias into a study or an experiment certainly negates
>>the "science" from it.

>Again, IMO not "Science" as it is popularly defined.

>Steve

Rather then studying the psychophysiological responses of
memories either true or false, it would be nice to have these
caliber of individuals studying the alleged events themselves.
Prove or disprove these actions before condemning them to the
result of "hypnopompic hallucinations" and put that in peer
reviewed Journals.

Respectfully,

Frank Warren










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                       Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:55:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:33:10 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Maccabee


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>>
>Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:09:11 -070>0
>Subject: UFO "Only Venus"

>Source: The Daily News - South Africa

>http://www.dailynews.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=500&fArticleId=2138596

>07-05-04

>UFO was only Venus, says prof

>By Bhavna Sookha

>A professor from the University of KwaZulu-Natal has quashed
>reports that there were sightings of an unidentified flying
>object in Phoenix last week.

>Arthur Hughes, professor of physics at the University of
>KwaZulu-Natal, who viewed the video footage, said the object on
>film was not an unidentified flying object.

>"It couldn't have been a fireball as they don't usually last that
>long. It also could not have been a satellite as they pass over
>quite quickly. Satellites travel around the earth in 90 minutes,"
>he said.

>When questioned about whether the university had received any
>other calls about unusual sightings last Sunday, Hughes said that
>he had received no other calls.

>"I have also not heard of other reports of unusual sightings
>during that period. It was the planet Venus. Venus is visible in
>the early parts of the morning," he said.

>But the woman who saw the object, Roshnie Naidu, says that she
>knows what she saw and it was definitely not Venus.

>"Initially, I was very sceptical about UFOs and alien sightings
>but after what I saw on Sunday morning, I am more open-minded,"
>she said.

>Naidu, however, says that if the light she had seen had been
>Venus, it would not have moved around so much and changed shape
>so often.

>"Initially it was not so high up in the sky and it changed shape
>quite often. It became elongated and gave off light and the area
>was very well lit up by this light," she said.

>Naidu's husband, Shrirama, who also saw the huge light, said they
>had expected people to be sceptical.

OK. Here's a typical example of the problem with relying on
reported information. What was important to the reporter and to
the witness was that it "moved around so much and changed shape
so often."

The unanswered question is thie: is this comment about motion
and shape changed based on the naked eye view or on replaying
the video>?

If the naked eye view showed large angular motion and large
shape change... then it was weird.

If the video image, during replay,moves a lot and changes shape
this is proof of... nothing! Hand shake on the camera (was it on
a tripod?) and (useless) large magnification of a bright light
(e.g. star, Venus) seen through a hundred miles of atmosphere
can explain image motion and shape change.

Long duration sightings when Venus is in the sky are always
suspect unless the witness can prove that, for example, the
sightign direction was not in the direction of Venus.

Venus at its brightest can create visible shadows at night. It
is amazingly bright. So it is easy to understand that one who is
not prepared for it might think "UFO".







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                        Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:45:21 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:35:55 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Boone


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:21:29 -0300
>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"


>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:09:11 -0700
>>Subject: UFO "Only Venus"

>>Source: The Daily News - South Africa
>>http://www.dailynews.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=500&fArticleId=2138596
>>07-05-04

>>UFO was only Venus, says prof
>>By Bhavna Sookha

>>A professor from the University of KwaZulu-Natal has quashed
>>reports that there were sightings of an unidentified flying
>>object in Phoenix last week.

>>Arthur Hughes, professor of physics at the University of
>>KwaZulu-Natal, who viewed the video footage, said the object on
>>film was not an unidentified flying object.

>>"It couldn't have been a fireball as they don't usually last that
>>long. It also could not have been a satellite as they pass over
>>quite quickly. Satellites travel around the earth in 90 minutes,"
>>he said.

><snip>

>>"I have also not heard of other reports of unusual sightings
>>during that period. It was the planet Venus. Venus is visible in
>>the early parts of the morning," he said.

>That's some reason. I wonder if this man of science did the
>calculations. The much toted Venus is trotted out whenever a UFO
>is sighted and in most cases is not the culprit despite what is
>proffered.

>It's strange, don't you think, that one can go dozens of years,
>looking at the night sky, seeing Venus, then suddenly one night
>it becomes a UFO. I hope this scientist isn't as sloppy with the
>rest of his work.

>Anywhere we can actually view the video?

Thank you Don Ledger!

It's at times like this the opportunity to fight back arises.
One of the esteemed List members who is an astronomer need step
forward with the data at hand and not only validate or
invalidate the 'Venus' hypothesis immediately but also badger
the news source that reported it to present that finding as well
before folks wander off convinced this lady and her husband and
video are unworthy of attention.

Even invite her to a show as many radio hosts are on board here.

If we show support with good nature perhaps word would spread
that UFO reports from the public aren't tossed aside as nonsense
and the reporters warrant an acknowledgement for their
vigilance.


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                         Re: UFO "Only Venus" - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:51:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:46:40 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - King


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:09:11 -0700
>Subject: UFO "Only Venus"

>Source: The Daily News - South Africa

>http://www.dailynews.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=500&fArticleId=2138596

>07-05-04

>UFO was only Venus, says prof

>By Bhavna Sookha

>A professor from the University of KwaZulu-Natal has quashed
>reports that there were sightings of an unidentified flying
>object in Phoenix last week.

>Arthur Hughes, professor of physics at the University of
>KwaZulu-Natal, who viewed the video footage, said the object on
>film was not an unidentified flying object.

>"It couldn't have been a fireball as they don't usually last that
>long.

This statement is self-contradictory.

>It also could not have been a satellite as they pass over
>quite quickly.

Nonsense. Geo-synchronous satellites don't "pass over"
at all.

>Satellites travel around the earth in 90 minutes,"
>he said.

Bunk. Satellites travel at different speeds, depending on how
far up they are, and whether they are to stay put or orbit the
earth.

>"It was the planet Venus.

A statement of fact with no supporting
evidence.

>"Venus is visible in
>the early parts of the morning," he said.

Finally, a statement that is almost true. Obviously Venus is not
always visible in the morning (fog, obstruction, etc)nor is it
ever the ONLY visible thing.

KwaZulu-Natal. Is this where you have to go to get hard science
like this?

Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                      Mexican Air Force's Chief Removed

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 14:23:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:51:05 -0400
Subject: Mexican Air Force's Chief Removed


Hello all,

Excuse me please for my translation and syntax.

The following announcement is not official and will be confirmed
as soon as I can get in touch with a friend co-pilot who I fly
with him very often and is the son of General Manuel V. Estrada
Ricardez apparently  the new Mexican Air Force Chief since last
may.

I am looking for official information about the pilot and the
Flir and Radar operators of the C26A flight on march 05 that
supposedly were degraded (demoted) in rank.

Regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director.nul

_______________________________

Relief in the Mexican Air Force.

by Mario Overall
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 06:09 am:

Major General Pilot Manuel Victor Estrada Ricardez is the new
commander of the Mexican Air Force. He releases in the position
to General Ernesto Oropeza Arcos, only one of high level rank
that had been ratified in the change of Government.

The exit of Oropeza Arcos coincides with the unusual revelation
of the military commands around the presence of Unidentified
Flying Objects in Sonda de Campeche. The Fairchild C-26
airplanes that participated in the sighting of past 5th of
March, comprise of the most important strategy that pushed
General Arcos Oropeza from his position: The electronic aerial
monitoring.

Shortly the squad will be reinforced by three modern Embraer 145
jets, also acquired under his administration. Oropeza Arcos were
also one of the six Major generals that had the Mexican Air
Force in active duty.

They are left only five, telling his successor, who a year ago
still did not fly so high. In May of 2003, General Estrada
Ricardez was commander of Military Aerial Base number One, the
one at Santa Lucia, most important of the Air Force. There they
are for example jets F-5, the new helicopters Bell 412, the
Hercules C-130, Boeing 727. Before it had been in charge of 8th
Military Air Base in M=E9rida, Yucatan.

The 20 of November of 2003, Estrada Ricardez received the
promotion to Division. In the present administration only three
elements have received that rank: now the new commander and
Generals Enrique Ramos Padilla and Sergio Parra Estrada, present
commanders of the Air district of the Northwest Military Air
Base number 5, respectively. Being commander of Air base,
General Estrada Ricardez will take care of the Military Air
district of the Center, one of the four in which the Country is
divided according to the strategy of the MAF.

That was its last command post before taking care of the highest
position within its area. The new commander of the Mexican Air
Force will be in charge of about 11 thousand troops between
pilots, mechanics and flight personnel, communication and
administration and 414 fixed-wing between airplanes and
helicopters, according to the last number made public by the
Sedena in  August of 2003.

Sources in Spanish:

http://www.laahs.com/board/messages/1723/1732.html?1085500148
http://www.aire.org/portal/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D635








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                       Re: Devil's Hole Nevada - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:01:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:57:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Devil's Hole Nevada - King


>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 14:35:49 -0400
>Subject: Re: Devil's Hole Nevada

>>From: Teri Hayes <truthspupl.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 07:54:22 -0700
>>Subject: Devil's Hole Nevada

>>If anyone is interested I have created a web site at Tripod with
>>the remainder of the photos that were taken at Devil's Hole in
>>the Ash Meadows Wildlife Refuge.

>>I find them of interest.

>>You may visit:

>>http://peterrabbitt152.tripod.com

>>if you'd like to view the photos and perhaps offer a suggestion
>>as to the cause of the anomalies presented.

>On this page:

>http://peterrabbitt152.tripod.com/id2.html

>the fact that the "flare" is the same shape in all pictures, and when you
>turn the camera from "portrait" to "landscape" orientation, the "flare"
>turns with it, suggests that the origin is in the camera.

Yes, indeed... and the flare remains the same size regardless of
the distance to the subject, indicating that it is in fact,
artifact.


Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                   Morehead "Screaming Woman" Video Online

From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:51:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 04:00:59 -0400
Subject: Morehead "Screaming Woman" Video Online


A 5-minute video report of the Nov., 2003 Morehead, KY
(Screaming Woman) Incident is freely available online in a .wmv
format (will open with Windows Media Player version 9).

Special thanks to Sean Feeney for uploading
and hosting the video.

This report was featured on the June, 2004 television program
"UFO Update: LIVE" produced by Bob Leibold, Natural Light
Productions. The Morehead report was produced by Kenny Young,
narrated by Jeff Shire and features investigator Donnie Blessing
plus others who were acting out parts for dramatic re-enactments.

For low bandwidth/dial-up computers, click on:

http://www.ufounderground.net/submitted/kenny/ufoupdate/UFO_UPDATE_morehead_ky_0
3_56k.wmv

For high bandwidth/Cable/DSL users, click on:

http://www.ufounderground.net/submitted/kenny/ufoupdate/UFO_UPDATE_morehead_ky_0
3_DSL.wmv








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                  Re: Conscious Abductees Question - Benson

From: Tom Benson <sparkle.nul>
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:17:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 04:09:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Conscious Abductees Question - Benson


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 19:58:21 EDT
>Subject: Conscious Abductees Question

>I'm looking for any abductee data where the abductee or
>abductees were conscious during their experience and did not
>have to undergo hypnosis to glean data.

>Also, any statistics from any of you researchers on the
>percentages of reported abductions wherein the victim was
>conscious during their abduction (s) please.


Dear Greg

I believe there cannot be a fully physical UFO abduction (for
lack of a better term).

Initially, the experiencer may physically see any entity or an
object, but only can experience the onboard  interaction to and
within and back from the object, via their soul/spiritual -
paraphysical state.

The entity and object are paraphysical and spiritual, and not
physical, although they and the object which are extensions of
eachother, appear physical in our memories of the event.

However, they also may have physiological effects on the
physical body such as the "stigmata" phenonmenon.

I hope this information is of assistance to you,


Sincerely,

Tom Benson
Experiencer








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                 Re: Conscious Abductees Question - Denzler

From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:57:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 04:15:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Conscious Abductees Question - Denzler


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 19:58:21 EDT
>Subject: Conscious Abductees Question

>I'm looking for any abductee data where the abductee or
>abductees were conscious during their experience and did not
>have to undergo hypnosis to glean data.

>Also, any statistics from any of you researchers on the
>percentages of reported abductions wherein the victim was
>conscious during their abduction (s) please.


Greg:

Here is info from my little "Abduction Millennium Project":

Most of my abduction memories are in the form of:

Dreams 13.5%

More than dreams, but not fully conscious events 25.2%

Physical sensations that precede the event, but not the
abduction itself 8.1%

Fully conscious memories of bits and pieces of the event 23.0%

Fully conscious memories of significant segments of the event
13.1%

Hypnotically-retrieved memories 5.0%

"Other" 12.2%

N = 222

This info is good only through about 1997, as I have not had
occasion to enter the data from subsequent surveys that have
been turned in since then.

Brenda Denzler
http://www.abductionproject.com

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
president, or that we are to stand by the president right
or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is
morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Rosevelt








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                   Re: Changes At The WHY? Files - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:32:30 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 04:17:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Changes At The WHY? Files - Tonnies


>From: Geoffrey Richardson <geoff.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 23:48:20 +0100
>Subject: Changes At The WHY? Files

>Due to circumstances beyond my control "The WHY Files" have a
>new address - www.thewhyfiles.net I would be grateful if any
>links to The WHY? Files could be amended to the new
>address.

I can't find Colin Bennett's Combat Diaries; what's the new URL?

Thanks in advance,


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot.nul)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com
("Hot Memes Daily")

New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 03:14:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 04:21:03 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - King


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:50:43 +0100
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:57:29 -0400
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>No one is saying that people shouldn't research, study, and
>>believe in this subject in any way they chose.That's not an
>>issue, and never has been. IMO, it's a question of how that
>>information is presented, and all to often it's presented as
>>"fact", when it's in reality idle speculation. I didn't hear
>>Richard say that Stargate wasn't the answer, but certainly
>>evidence to that effect hasn't been presented and we're seeing a
>>lot of discussion that would indicate that some believe that
>>it's fact.

>I disagree. Terri (I think) said they had been told by someone
>that Stargate was the real deal. I chirped in and said it was a
>neat idea c/w Graham Hancock's work. With respect, that hardly
>amounts to anyone stating they believe Stargate is the answer to
>everything.

>>If you're going to discuss this topic based on beliefs and
>>faith, then this has become another religion. That's not a
>>problem, but some of us will likely be the atheists and
>>agnostics out in the street trying to do actual research.

>Belief equals religion. belief doesn't. This is quite a
>ridiculous equation that you and many others make. On that
>basis, the world is totally overun with religion. I believe in
>the ability of my dog to chase a cat. I've never seen him do it
>but I believe he can. Surely you're not going to claim that I
>worship at the altar of Benji the mutt?

>There is a strong suspicion that this automatic reference to
>religion when one talks about belief in ufology is nothing more
>or less than the usual spin of academic elitist snobbery.
>Religion is for the masses, the unwashed, the stupid. Educated
>people know better. It is a device for self justification at the
>expense of others, puffing up ones own ego to confirm one's
>separatness from the plebs.

>I don't condem that per se. People are people. But it is
>disapointing and does rather tend to confirm that a higher level
>of intelligence doesn't necessarily imply a greater level of
>personal understanding.

Believing in your dog's ability to chase your cat isn't
religion, since it... correct me if I'm wrong... doesn't involve
the origin of man. When one believes that something is true that
_cannot_ be proven... that's much closer to the definition of
religion. The suggestion is that since science cannot prove
psychic ability, for example, science MUST be at fault.

I am a scientist. That is, I see the world as a collection of
phenomena and I attempt to classify, quantify, understand them.
I require evidence in order to form hypotheses, thus I perform
experiments which either support or fail to support that
hypothesis. If a hypothesis exists for which experimentation is
not possible, i.e., the technology needed to adequately perform
the experiment doesn't yet exist, I don't blame science, and I
don't think less of those that require no experimentation. I
simply cannot discuss the hypothesis scientifically.

I am also a religious person. That is, I believe in a higher
power, a force of creative design in the universe. I believe it,
and I do not require any experimentation to support my belief. I
tend not to discuss my religious beliefs with scientists, since
there is no value in a scientific discussion of religious
belief. They are two different distinct concepts.

Because I'm a scientist, I'm supposed to be some kind of elitist
snob? Because I'm religious, I'm unclean?

It must be nice to live in a black and white world where
everyone has a label. In my world, I try not to label, and tend
to try to _advance_ the discussion, rather than assist it in
degrading to name-calling and hyperbolic rhetoric.

There is no quarrel between science and religion. There is no
quarrel between the scientific method and metaphysical
enlightenment. They're just two kids on the playground of life,
both convinced that his dad can kick the other's ass.

I always refused to take sides on those discussions, too.

The world, to those that open their eyes, contains much more
commonality than diversity. This discussion is an analog. We are
all convinced that the UFO phenomena is worthy of discussion,
but we're hog-tied trying to decide just HOW to discuss it.


Kyle









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:10:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 08:36:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 07:58:46 -0700
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:42:36 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:10:26 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>Hopefully the members of the "American Psychological Society," i.e.,
>>>the readers of the "The Journal Psychological Science" will note that
>>>any conclusion(s) of Dr. McKnally's study is flawed, because the
>>>components of the experiment are flawed. He has separated "PTSD
>>>victims" from "abductee victims" without merit, and I propose,
>>>scientifically speaking, that until he can prove that the events
>>>described by an "abductee victim" have not occurred, then his protocol
>>>is flawed, therefore; any conclusions based on this study would have
>>>to be re-evaluated.


[Source: WebMD

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/89/100279.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_nb_04 ]

<snip>


Does everyone realize that an article on this article appears in
the current issue of Discover magazine?


Brenda Denzler








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                   150-200 People See UFO in Ticul Mexico

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:45:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 08:42:37 -0400
Subject: 150-200 People See UFO in Ticul Mexico


SOURCE: Grupo CAFE (Yucatan, Mexico)
DATE: July 5, 2004

On Saturday and Sunday, members of the CAFE and SIRIO-MAYAB
research groups visited Ticul. During their stay in this
community, they were among the 150 to 200 witnesses to the
phenomenon that occurred over this location.

Although Saturday (07/03) was somewhat overcast, hindering the
visibility of any event, this was not the case on Sunday, which
allowed for a ligth to be seen around 7:00 p.m. coming from the
direction of a nearby radio mast. It first moved in a straight
line and then descended somewhat before ascending again, all of
this in a zig-zag motion, which dismissed any possibility that
it was a satellite. A few seconds later, maybe 20, the object
disappeared again but this time upward, as though leaving our
atmosphere.

A video was taken of this event using a Sony Hi 8 Camera. The
person who shot the event was Prof. Silvestre Leal Campos,
director of the SIRIO-MAYAB group.

The parties to this research were: Arq. Jorge Castro
Alejos.Prof. Silvestre Leal Campos Br. Ricardo Leal uillermo
Contreras Cruz (Corresponsal de C.A.F.E. en Ticul)


Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales IHU
Special thanks to David Triay Lucatero, CAFE






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

             Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto - Franz

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 05:55:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 08:50:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto - Franz


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:25:15 -0400
>Subject: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto

>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:40:00 -0700
>>Subject: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto

<snip>

>>I am investigating the rumor of the Mexican Air Force General
>>Commander's recent removal and how the pilot, the FLIR and radar
>>operators involved in the FLIR's video have been degraded.

>Thank you, Capt. Franz, for the alerting us to this document and
>for the translation.

You are welcome, this was a Mexican Scientific Community
manifesto of which you are making some comments that I will try
to quote trying to be as neutral as I can.

If Donald H. Rumsfeld delivers a USAF FLIR's video with a UFO
sighting to Dr. Steven Greer or to Art Bell. You as a scientist
in such a case would you make a similar manifesto? I have some
friends scientists in the states who already know about it, and
told me they agree on a protest like the one we talk about.

>I hope they haven't been downgraded but if they have, they won't
>be the first to be downgraded for reporting a UFO.

To sad to say that, it is now confirmed officially they were not
downgraded, they were reassigned to lower hierarchy controls, a
unusual fact in the Armed Forces of the Country. I think it was
not because a UFO report, it was because the video case was
deliberately disclosed without Mexico's President approval.

That is the main question we have before our findings. This case
has to do with something worked out in a top political level.
You don't know how politics are in Mexico. I am working out on a
theory that I hope to finish by the end of this week.

<snip>

>>Most of the manifestations of the phenomenon receive a
>>satisfactory explanation, being that they postulate its origin
>>in extraterrestrial devices lacking of conclusive evidences.

>I note they say "most" implying that *some* sightings are
>unexplained and hence *might* be evidence of ET. Hmmmmm... do
>they really think so or is this just a "sop" to the "masses" of
>ufologists?

I think that was not a *sop*, if they are protesting in a
worldwide manifesto we must accept it was a clear signal that
they started to believe in ET existence, that it is now a *most*
and not an *all* as used to be *some* years ago.

<snip>

>>The fact that the National Defense ignored what institutions and
>>what scientific disciplines to count for this situation causes
>>restlessness to us on the methodologies that could be taken in
>>another type of events.

>Perhaps he thought that conventional scence institutions would
>immediately explain the sighting as such and such and not even
>investigate. Can't imagine where he woudl get an idea like that!
>(HO HO)

I can't imagine that to, but explaining something doesn't mean
it can't be investigated with the material in their hands and
more important, coming from the Defense Secretary. What would
you do if that video were delivered straight to you? One thing
is to be a scientist and other is to be blind or negligent or
close minded.(not you):)

<snip>

>>people's rather than Mexican science, whereas to the members of
>>the Institute of Astronomy and Nuclear Sciences of the UNAM has
>>refused them saying the "it was classified material".

>>Perhaps the SEDENA ignored the use that would be given by Mr.
>>Jaime Maussan to this video? And if this _classified material_
>>is disclosed, haven't they incurred in a serious crime?

>Perhaps they requested classified material? Some of the info I
>have obtained (not from the DOD) is considered "propietary" and
>some "classified." But to get the answers we don't need
>classified materials.

That was the big mistake and I am taking that to sustain my new
theory I wrote lines up. Classified material is the key of all
this matter. We have been submerged in a controversy since may
12 and the big questioning was deliberately deviated from our
attention. What did the Defense Secretary General Vega Garcia
forget to do? He 'forget' to call to a press conference and let
the interested ones to know about the video sighting. What was
the impact in that 'forgetting'? Simple as this, he 'forget' the
medullar Defense Secretary government loyalty! President Vicente
Fox was exposed as a weak person and worst, with an
irresponsible Armed Forces Secretary in his staff.

Nothing more vulnerable, nothing more absurd and illogical than
ignore his Superior, the President! That is one point. Another
point is related about the internal relations between the Air
Force and the Military. Other one, Martha Fox, the President's
wife, a women 'candidate' with high percentage of possibilities
to win the presidential race which started precisely on month
before the FLIR's sighting. Do you know the military internal
code about women?.... Stay tuned.

Please wait to my post on that, you won't believe it.

>>Isn't it possible that the scientific community commits itself
>>to present/display a guessed right explanation of the video
>>while all the material for this investigation is not provided.
>>The only opinion that can be disclosed to the public and mass
>>media is a hypothesis that would include an approval to be put
>>at the moment at which unlimited access to the material and the
>>interviews to the witnesses of the event.

>Neither the science community nor the "UFO community"
>should be claiming proof of explanation without all the data.

Yes I agree, proof of explanation or vice versa. Syllogism.

>>The Mexican scientific community wishes to outward that any
>>probable explanation expressed to date in mass media must be
>>taken only in the land of speculation and the scientific
>>hypothesis. The scientific method does not jeopardize the
>>investigators to emit a definitive judgment in a reduced margin
>>of time.

>Here they claim that, as far as the scientific community is
>concerned, the sighting explanations are hypotheses only. But in
>the press the hypotheses are presented as explanations.

Most of the press is controlled by Televisa, they control not
what people needs to know but what they want people to know.

<snip>

>>characteristics described by the military personnel: moves
>>horizontally, is visible in diverse wavelengths -invisible and
>>visible-, like it leaves its intermittent track in the radar.
>>The "ray ball" tends to come near to the fuselage of the
>>airplanes, because its nature tries to unload its electrical
>>charge, it does not imply an "intelligent movement" as some
>>people have expressed.

>Obviously the "ball lightning" hypothesis is in the forefront of
>explanations. But I am suprised they haven't all latched onto
>the oil fire hypothesis/explanation. Perhaps they actually have
>some faith in the witnesses who claim it wasn't oil fires.

Then why Jaime Maussan knowing about the oil fires in the
Cantarell oil field at least didn't do his own investigation?
But that is a waste of time, he insists they were UFO's with
intelligent movement. I can't do more than express my ideas with
big limitation. Anyway I am happy to participate and to have
your opinion and valuable contribution in this case.

>I have requested, for over a month now, an experiment to test
>the oil fire hypothesis. It is a simple experiment and probably
>would cost only a few hundred bucks (can be done during a
>routine patrol mission).

I tried to hire an airplane in Ciudad del Carmen airport last
week, there are only helicopters which are not eligible to
the experiment. They charge between 6 to 8 thousand pesos
( 5 to 6 hundred dollars an hour) and they can't fly up to
11,500ft at 195 mph. The tower Controller was reprimanded
for giving information to the media. I can't tell his name.


Capt. Alejandro Franz








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                  Mexican Air Force Chief Removal Official

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 06:31:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 08:58:46 -0400
Subject: Mexican Air Force Chief Removal Official


Hello all,

I just confirmed the information that has been silenced since
May 20 by the implicated in the Mexican Air Force's FLIR's video
disclosure.

Mexican Air Force's Chief removed is official.

The Commander and the Head of the General Staff of the Mexican
Air Force have been lowered in hierarchy control.

Regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director.nul
___________________________________________

General Ernesto Arcos Oropeza was removed as Mexican Air Force's
Chief to Mexico's Northwest Region. Now is the Base Commander at
Hermosillo, Sonora, Mexico.

The UFO factor:

Criteria differences with the SEDENA's Secretary General Gerardo
Clemente Vega Garcia as an example the filtration of a video of
supposedly UFO's influenced for the post command changes.

General Ernesto Arcos Oropeza was relieved as Mexican Air
Force's Chief. He was reassigned to a lower hierarchy control,
not rank.

General Rafael Enrique Ramos Padilla was reassigned to lower
hierarchy control, not rank. Now is commander in Zapopan Jalisco
number 5 aerial base and school.

Source:
http://www.sedena.gob.mx/fam/comandancia/reg_aer.html

--------------------

Newspaper:

Mexican Air Force cuts wings to Chiefs.

By Luis Alegre Mural

(03 June 2004). - MURAL/Mexico MEXICO. -

Source:

http://busquedas.gruporeforma.com/utileriasm/imdservicios3W.DLL?JSearchformatS&f
ile=GDL/MURAL01/00245/00245190.htm&palabra=Estrada%20Ricardez&sitemural

In a lapse of a month and a half, the Commander and the
Head of the General Staff of the Mexican Air Force (FAM)
-the two positions of greater relevance in the institution-
were changed of their positions and reassigned to lower
hierarchy controls, a less usual fact in the Armed Forces
of the Country.

>From having in his hands the maximum responsibilities of
the MAF, Major Generals Ernesto Arcos Oropeza and Rafael
Enrique Ramos Padilla they take care now only of specific
territorial commands, according to information contained
in the web page of SEDENA (Secretariat of National Defense)
Their changes of position do not seem to obey to a same
cause - 45 days between one and another one nor to a
policy of rotation, because it is not common that a
military man of high rank lowers his level of control.

According to military commands consulted unofficially,
the criteria differences between General Arcos Oropeza
and the Secretary of the National defense, General Clemente
Ricardo Gerardo Vega Garcia, would have taken to the removal
of first one. Between those differences would be included
for example the filtration to the media of the video of
supposed UFO's in Campeche filmed by an electronic
patrol airplane of the MAF.










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                         UFOs Over Yucatan Peninsula

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:08:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 09:01:57 -0400
Subject: UFOs Over Yucatan Peninsula


Source: El Diario de Yucatan
Date: July 5, 2004

CURIOSITY OVER LIGHTS IN THE SKY


TICUL =97 The alleged lights that cross the skies over the Benito
Juarez sector have been the subject of meetings and
conversations among neighbors.

Some residents of Ticul believe they are Unidentified Flying
Object and increasing numbers of locals are visiting the hills.

The appartions at midnight keep people awake to see "the lights
that move and then remain still before continuing their
journey." In the month of May, several residents claimed having
seen UFOs over by Dzan, and some 3 or 4 years ago people
ascended Santa Elena Hill for a better look.

http://edicion.yucatan.com.mx/noticias/noticia.asp?cx=3D14$4109080000$287060=
2

SOURCE: Diario de Yucatan
DATE: July 5, 2004

UFO's: A Compulsory Subject of Conversation
** More people visit a neighborhood to see "the lights"

TICUL - The subject of the alleged apparition of lights in the
sky have been a compulsory subject of conversation among local
relatives. Skeptics and believers alike are visiting this locale
and some even think they could be UFOs.

The remarks made in the county seat have not delayed long,
especially among people who visit the site and residents of the
Benito Juarez sector itself, located on the hill and one of the
most isolated ones in the community.

Witnesses report that shortly after midnight the lights begin to
appear. At times, they can see a very large light that crosses
the skies several times. At times they remain motionless before
taking off at high speed, they say.

The widespread belief is that [the lights] are UFOs.

Residents of the Benito Juarez neighborhood claim that the
lights began to appear the very same night the earthquake
occured. Others believe that the phenomenon occurs on given
years and are not limited to a certain part of the state.

According to the information provided, these lights were also
seen some 2 or 3 years ago along the road leading to the
municipality of Santa Elena. Furthermore, some five or six years
ago, the same strange phenomenon was seen along the road to
Sacalum.

The fact is that the unidentified lights are the topic of the
day -- one that is gaining popularity among every stratum of
this community. Night after night, between 150 to 200 people
have been reporting to the Benito Juarez sector and claim that
they have indeed seen these lights.

http://edicion.yucatan.com.mx/noticias/noticia.asp?cx=3D14$4109080000$287021=
3



SOURCE:=A1POR ESTO!
DATE: July 5, 2004

UFOs: A SUMMARY

Unidentified Flying Objects are the talk of the town in Ticul

28 years ago, the Central Intelligence Agency of the United
States (CIA) recorded the manifestation of UFOs some 28 years
ago in the skies over Merida, according to a recently
declassified  report by said agency.

In 1976, Robert S. Ashford, the U.S. consul in Merida, reported
to the Department of State, and in turn, State apprised the CIA,
of the apparition of UFOs in the sky.

Hundreds of persons visit the San Benito neighborhood on a daily
basis for some 15 days, claiming to have seen UFOs. Visitors to
the site are local residents who spend long hours gazing skyward
and some claim having seen "a large saucer-shaped object with
multicolored lights that moves across the sky at night."

The tenant farmers of the district leave their homes early in
the morning to see the strange object. Given the curious nature
of the event, increasing numbers of people have come to see this
phenomenon, but very few have seen the flying object. Mrs. Maria
Cardenas Ek and Lourdes Bojorquez claim having been witnesses to
the event.

Mrs. Cardenas said that on Thursday, June 17, she was home when
she noticed a shining object spinning around a tower belonging
to the Federal Electric Commission. After a while it stood still
in the air, and that was when the dogs began to bark.

The second time she saw it was around 1 a.m., when she saw the
flying object in the skies again. Since that date, seeing this
object at night has become a regular activity. The correspondent
for the POR ESTO newspaper was on site for many hours to see if
the object would manifest, but was unsuccessful. However, locals
say that the UFO doesn't have a fixed schedule for its
manifestations.

The fact of the matter is that expectations are on the increase
among local residents on account of the strange lights in the
sky, and the number of curiosity seekers is growing.


http://www.poresto.net/index.php?ID=3D10367S

Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to David Triay Lucatero, CAFE









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                    Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:35:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 09:05:20 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Kaeser


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:12:51 +0100
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:15 +0000
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

<snip>

Stuart-

>>Thanks for the free advice, which is worth every penny of it.

>>So the scientific method (not sure what the quotes are supposed
>>to imply) has been profoundly discredited, eh? That will indeed
>>be news to the NASA JPL scientists currently investigating
>>Saturn, Dick Haines, Bruce Maccabee, the National Institutes of
>>Health, and many many others. Might as well close down the labs
>>and go home.

>You're a devil, aren't you? I'll have to cross my T's and dot my
>i's with you sir, that I can see. I was referring to Ufology
>although I accept I never said that.

>Now we've got that sorted, perhaps you might like to answer the
>question honestly this time? In fact I'll repeat the question
>within more specific parameters;

>How exactly has the scientific approach got us any closer to
>full disclosure or for that matter, even a confirmation of
>anomalty?

Is the "scientific method" a valid tool to get at "full
disclosure"? I'm certainly in support of "full disclosure", but
I wouldn't expect scientific analysis to force anyone's hand,
per se.  What generally acceptable method would you want to
employ to identify and quantify an anomaly? Further, I would
suggest that an anomoly that has become quantified and measured
through scientific analysis would become a pheonomenon, but
we're playing with words here.

>>Also, for the record I am not a grumpy old man. I'm a grumpy
>>young man, and getting grumpier by the day as I see mystics and
>>New Agers trying to take over the UFO field. As I dodder into
>>the sunset I will continue to fight for scientific rationality.

>Jolly good and a worthy sentiment to boot. But I want to ask a
>favour. Could you let the rest of us have our say, umolested by
>sneering, bullying and sarcasm, if we happen to voice an opinion
>that doesn't tie in with yours?

Those of us who have a vain hope of forcing this investigation
toward a scientific inquiry have a difficult time with some of
the nonsense we see on the "lists", but that doesn't mean we
have any desire to stop the discussion or force our beliefs on
others. Many of those who have been involved in this genre for
decades have simply backed out of all discussion on the
Internet, and more will likely do so out of frustration with the
trends that have evolved in the field. That exodus is likely to
continue, and it won't be long before the "mystics and new
agers" have this entire playground to themselves.


Steve








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:32:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:42:18 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Lehmberg


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:35:30 -0400
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:12:51 +0100
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:15 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

><snip>

>Stuart-

>>>Thanks for the free advice, which is worth every penny of it.

<snip>

>Those of us who have a vain hope of forcing this investigation
>toward a scientific inquiry have a difficult time with some of
>the nonsense we see on the "lists", but that doesn't mean we
>have any desire to stop the discussion or force our beliefs on
>others. Many of those who have been involved in this genre for
>decades have simply backed out of all discussion on the
>Internet, and more will likely do so out of frustration with the
>trends that have evolved in the field. That exodus is likely to
>continue, and it won't be long before the "mystics and new
>agers" have this entire playground to themselves.

First you had unrestricted capitalism then you had communism.
First you had the unrepentant chauvinist Then you had the
feminazi. First you had organic sexual bigotry then you had the
militant gay. First you had a duplicitous government and an
unbrave science then you had the "mystics and new agers" to
which you refer.

You can't fault sincere people for trying to fill, in any way
they can, the intellectual voids created by their secular and
spiritual leadership. You blame the former for the sins of the
latter. You, therefore, only entrench the former (with your
insult) and embolden the latter (with your complacency). Turn
your rage around, Sir, you're 180 degrees out of phase.


alienview.nul
EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

               Re: Aliens Bombard Bush With Invisible Beams -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 06:53:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:45:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Aliens Bombard Bush With Invisible Beams -



Source: WWW.Swans.com

http://www.swans.com/library/art10/procks30.html

... What will it take to shake us from our complacency and
denial about the dire nature of the situation? Perhaps,
something on the order of: It is revealed that President Bush
has ordered the walls of the White House be covered with tinfoil
wallpaper... or, maybe, for him to begin raving that aliens are
bombarding him with invisible beams - and it was such beams,
emanating from extraterrestrial mind-control weapons - that
caused him to fall off that Satanic Segway scooter, and then
from his bicycle, and then to drop his poor dog... or for him to
claim he is falling in the polls because red-blooded American
patriots are being replaced by enemy combatant-loving, French-
looking pod people in key battleground states.....










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:48:08 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:48:02 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:35:30 -0400
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

<snip>

>Those of us who have a vain hope of forcing this investigation
>toward a scientific inquiry have a difficult time with some of
>the nonsense we see on the "lists", but that doesn't mean we
>have any desire to stop the discussion or force our beliefs on
>others. Many of those who have been involved in this genre for
>decades have simply backed out of all discussion on the
>Internet, and more will likely do so out of frustration with the
>trends that have evolved in the field. That exodus is likely to
>continue, and it won't be long before the "mystics and new
>agers" have this entire playground to themselves.

...and then they can build all the sand castles they want to and
not have to be bothered with such nonsensical concepts as logic
and critical thinking being thrown in their faces by playground
bullies.


 - Dick








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:54:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:50:18 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Clark


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 18:34:19 +0100
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 19:33:58 +0000
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

<snip>

>And why do you wail to the heavens when New Agism is mentioned?
>Is it because there are lots of women in it? J'accuse! You are a
>misogynist masquerading as a ufologist.

I'm assuming this is not meant seriously.

>Nah, I don't have much time for New Agist theories either. But
>neither do I go swinging my cave man club about when it gets
>mentioned. Here's the trick Dick. I listen. Who knows? I might
>actually learn something. And, with the admitted exception of
>one English sceptic, I don't growl at people in my best Walter
>Mathau fashion if they offer ideas contrary to mine.

I intervene in this discussion simply to make one observation,
which is this:

Alone - I suspect - of all on this List, I am co-author of a big
overview of the New Age movement, which I (co)wrote as the
movement was cresting at the end of the 1980s. My co-authors
were two prominent religious-studies authorities, one of them
the esteemed J. Gordon Melton, University of California at Santa
Barbara. The book was intended to be informational and
analytical, neither a defense of nor an attack on the movement.
The book was widely praised and won several scholarly awards.

That said, I will state personally that it is entirely proper to
characterize something as "New Age," if that is what it is, and
not to mean that as a compliment. My own research and writing
persuaded me that the phrases "New Age" and "airhead" are too
often synonymous. It is, or was, a movement with little to
recommend it.


Jerry Clark










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                        Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:17:17 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:56:48 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Ledger


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:55:18 -0400
>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>>
>>Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:09:11 -070>0
>>Subject: UFO "Only Venus"

>>Source: The Daily News - South Africa

>>http://www.dailynews.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=500&fArticleId=2138596

>>07-05-04

>>UFO was only Venus, says prof

>>By Bhavna Sookha

>>A professor from the University of KwaZulu-Natal has quashed
>>reports that there were sightings of an unidentified flying
>>object in Phoenix last week.

>>Arthur Hughes, professor of physics at the University of
>>KwaZulu-Natal, who viewed the video footage, said the object on
>>film was not an unidentified flying object.

>>"It couldn't have been a fireball as they don't usually last that
>>long. It also could not have been a satellite as they pass over
>>quite quickly. Satellites travel around the earth in 90 minutes,"
>>he said.

>>When questioned about whether the university had received any
>>other calls about unusual sightings last Sunday, Hughes said that
>>he had received no other calls.

>>"I have also not heard of other reports of unusual sightings
>>during that period. It was the planet Venus. Venus is visible in
>>the early parts of the morning," he said.

>>But the woman who saw the object, Roshnie Naidu, says that she
>>knows what she saw and it was definitely not Venus.

>>"Initially, I was very sceptical about UFOs and alien
>>sightings but after what I saw on Sunday morning, I am more
>>open-minded," she said.

>>Naidu, however, says that if the light she had seen had been
>>Venus, it would not have moved around so much and changed
>>shape so often.

>>"Initially it was not so high up in the sky and it changed shape
>>quite often. It became elongated and gave off light and the area
>>was very well lit up by this light," she said.

>>Naidu's husband, Shrirama, who also saw the huge light, said they
>>had expected people to be sceptical.

>OK. Here's a typical example of the problem with relying on
>reported information. What was important to the reporter and to
>the witness was that it "moved around so much and changed shape
>so often."

>The unanswered question is thie: is this comment about motion
>and shape changed based on the naked eye view or on replaying
>the video?

>If the naked eye view showed large angular motion and large
>change... then it was weird.

>If the video image, during replay,moves a lot and changes shape
>this is proof of... nothing! Hand shake on the camera (was it on
>a tripod?) and (useless) large magnification of a bright light
>(e.g. star, Venus) seen through a hundred miles of atmosphere
>can explain image motion and shape change.

Agreed. I've seen many UFO videos where the camera was hand
held. Why people can't stabilize the camera on a patio rail or
use a tripod is beyond me. I've seen some Mexican video shot
using a tripod and it makes a heck of a difference.

But getting back to the kneejerk response of Arthur Hughes, the
professor of physics and new expert in the field. He's the
expert [lord knows why] and he's suddenly the pro from Dover as
far as the press is concerned. That's why I distrust his claim.
Let me turn the witness tendency to see more in the video due to
shakey hand motion around by noting the natural tendency of the
lay scientists to look for the first obvious thing in the sky
and claim case solved-in this case Venus. Their own belief
system [much stronger than mine, one way or the other] is in
place, so they work from there. No background. I'm ready to give
it up if it's indeed Venus. Why not them when it's not?

Why was Venus suddenly a UFO? There's other data in there Bruce.
She stated, "Initially it was not so high up in the sky and it
changed shape quite often. It became elongated and gave off
light and the area was very well lit up by this light,"

Lighting up an area is something that Venus is not capable of.
As well her remarks suggest that that Venus was rising. Is that
true for that area for that time?

But your point is well taken. Let's see the video.


Don Ledger









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:34:39 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:59:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 08:58:09 -0700
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory


>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:48:44 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:10:26 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

<snip>

>Rather then studying the psychophysiological responses of
>memories either true or false, it would be nice to have these
>caliber of individuals studying the alleged events themselves.
>Prove or disprove these actions before condemning them to the
>result of "hypnopompic hallucinations" and put that in peer
>reviewed Journals.


Again, Thanks Frank Warren!

I recall an interview with famed abductee specialist Budd
Hopkins that we conducted with him during the 50th Anniversary
of the Roswell Incident in Roswell at the military school. Budd
discussed at length his experiences etc. with abductees which is
on video as well for us at Parascope Magazine.

What startled me was his mentioning of a good portion of
abductees who were fully conscious during their abduction. Did
this psychology study include these abductees as well?

That's the keystone far as I'm concerned. Digging around in a
person's unconscious mind is one thing but just up and asking
them from their analytical mind is another. There's an easy way
to find out if it's imagination, modification or just good ol'
plain straight from the shoulder truth.


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                       Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:03:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:03:01 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Stanford


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:51:05 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:09:11 -0700
>>Subject: UFO "Only Venus"

>>Source: The Daily News - South Africa

>>http://www.dailynews.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=500&fArticleId=2138596

>>07-05-04

>>UFO was only Venus, says prof

>>By Bhavna Sookha

>>A professor from the University of KwaZulu-Natal has quashed
>>reports that there were sightings of an unidentified flying
>>object in Phoenix last week.

>>Arthur Hughes, professor of physics at the University of
>>KwaZulu-Natal, who viewed the video footage, said the object on
>>film was not an unidentified flying object.

>>"It couldn't have been a fireball as they don't usually last that
>>long.

>This statement is self-contradictory.

>>It also could not have been a satellite as they pass over
>>quite quickly.

>Nonsense. Geo-synchronous satellites don't "pass over"
>at all.

Clearly he was not speaking of geo-synchronous satellites, which
are not normally visible to the unaided eye from earth, being at
about 22,241 statute miles above the earth's surface. So, why
should he speak of such?

>>Satellites travel around the earth in 90 minutes,"
>>he said.

>Bunk. Satellites travel at different speeds, depending on how
>far up they are, and whether they are to stay put or orbit the
>earth.

In the first place, the professor was making a generalization as
to orbital period, concerning satellites close enough to earth
to be readily noticed and mistaken for a 'UFO'. Surely the
professor knows the attention span of media people, who have no
patience with in-detail explanations.

But as to your statement, "...whether they [satellites] are to
stay put or orbit the earth"! Don't you know that all satellites
orbit the earth? It is just that a satellite in geo-synchronous
orbit circles the earth once each day in the equatorial plane at
approximately 35,786 kilometers (that being 19,323 nautical
miles, or 22,241 statute miles) above the earth's surface, thus
staying over the same spot on the earth's surface because its
orbit is directly above the equator at the aforementioned
altitude. But, contrary to the literal reading of your
statement, it is ORBITING, as I said, and exactly once per day.

You may declare that you really meant that it just does not
appear to be orbiting, as seen from earth's surface (but that's
plainly not what you said, even if you allege that's what you
meant), but because you accuse the professor of being careless
with words, I point out that you are guilty of doing so.

Furthermore, I would advise due caution in accusing a professor
of over-statements, over-simplifications, or contradictory words
that might, in fact, be due to sloppy media coverage.

>>"It was the planet Venus.

>A statement of fact with no supporting
>evidence.

Talk about a self-contradictory statement! Have you checked the
position of Venus in the sky for the place and time of the
sighting? If not, then it is you who have no basis for your
statement. I suspect the astronomer did have knowledge of the
visibility of Venus in the right sky location to cause a
misperception.

>>"Venus is visible in the early parts of the morning," he said.

Obviously he means when the sky is clear of obscuring clouds,
and you know it. Talk about an unfounded attack on someone and
nit-picking!

>Finally, a statement that is almost true. Obviously Venus is not
>always visible in the morning (fog, obstruction, etc)nor is it
>ever the ONLY visible thing.

>KwaZulu-Natal. Is this where you have to go to get hard science
>like this?

LMAO! It is you Kyle King, who seemingly need a lesson in hard
science, as evidenced in your saying, "...whether they stay put
or orbit the earth"!

It also seems you ignore the problem of "autokinesis" of the eye
when one watches a bright light like Venus against a dark sky,
the already widely opened pupil permits enough light that the
tiny part of the eye registering that bright light becomes
saturated and autokinesis (automatic shifting of the eye
slightly) occurs. Many persons misinterpret that happening as
motion by the bright object.

Now, I am not stating that for sure it was Venus which was
described as a 'UFO', but that if Venus was visible at that time
(and I suspect the astronomer knew it), that is possibly what
was reported.

You may assert that Venus cannot appear so large. Well, think
again. Let me share with you something that happened to a group
of us living on the coast of Texas some years ago. My phone rang
at well before sunrise. It was a friend, phoning from across
town, declaring, "Get the heck out of that bed and look out in
the eastern sky! There is something large and incredibly
brilliant out there! I've never seen anything like it in my
life!"

The three of us in that house rushed outside onto the front
porch. My friend was absolutely right! There was an incredibly
brilliant white blob of light in the eastern sky, so big that I
ran back inside for a moment and grabbed some coins to define
the angular size. A U.S. penny was a bit too large, but a dime
(ten cent piece) exactly covered the thing, and it seemed far
brighter than any full moon I had ever seen!

We stood there watching the incredibly bright thing for well
over half an hour, during which time it slowly moved upward (as
the thing in the report we are discussing) from the eastern sky
toward the west. Before thirty minutes had passed, I had
determined that the angular rate of sky passage was roughly
seven to eight degrees in thirty minutes.

Having determined that, I called my friend back with glee,
declaring, "Well, thanks for the call, and the thing is quite
spectacular, just as you said, so I'm glad to have had the
education of seeing it, in order to learn just how spectacular
Venus can be."

"That can't be Venus, unless it has left its orbit around the
sun and heading in our general direction!", my friend declared,
seemingly half in jest.

"Well", I retorted, "the sun is starting to come up now and the
invisible, high altitude ice crystal cloud(s) scattering the
light of Venus out to make it appear so big, will gradually be
melting or moving away from between us and Venus, and it will
slowly return to its more normal angular size."

Guess what. That is exactly what happened as we continued to
watch, while Venus slowly 'retreated' from its optical 'attack'
on earth and continued on its westward course into its normal
appearance. :)

Oh yes, just as reported in the case under discussion, the
bright thing we were watching seemed to move around all over a
small portion of the sky, but it was due to autokinesis, which
fooled none of us watching from the front porch that morning,
because we were familiar with autokinesis and the part it often
plays in IFO (identified flying 'object') reports.

So I suggest far more examination and care before attacking the
scientific credibility of an astronomer or in alleging that
people do not describe Venus as "huge" and as zipping around in
the eastern or western sky, because I know from investigating
many such cases that some people easily make such mistakes.
There are even those who are consciously and/or unconsciously
predisposed to such mistakes, although they seldom like to
realize that fact.

Vision is the property of the eye, but perception (a brain
function) comes with it, and whether one likes it or not,
misperception is the cause of a large percentage of UFO reports.
Such is the human condition. But we have some ability to reduce
misperception, by education and by striving for an objective,
unemotional interpretation of things seen in the sky.

Of course, it is true that a UFO skeptic might perceive an
anomalous sky object in the opposite emotional direction,
causing him or her to dismiss something truly anomalous as
prosaic. The knife of perception can cut either way. So, those
on both sides of UFO issue, and even those who think themselves
neutral on it, should remember to be highly circumspect in
analyzing things seen in the sky or in evaluating 'UFO' reports.

As to bright little 'objects' dancing or even zipping around on
videos made by hand-held (or even poorly tripod-supported)
cameras, frankly, I'm sick of people touting such a thing as
evidernce of a sophisticated technology maneuvering in the sky.
Unless there is a stable 'reference object' in a film or video,
such declarations of object motion are totally unsubstantiated
by the recorded evidence. Furthermore, people can often guild
their reporting lilly after seeing their hand-held (or otherwise
poorly supported) video, just to make their account match the
video. Yes, that has happened in some cases, and in fully
conscious knowledge of account distortion by the 'witness'. It
is not always just an unconscious warping of memory to match a
video.

Want to educate the public as to how to get a more evidential
video? Well, just tell them that, at all costs, get some stabile
reference object into that video. If at night, a street light or
a light visible in a building window might do the job. If not,
well, heck, if it's Christmas night, 'bulldog' (a rodeo term)
that reindeer Rudolph and hold that glowing nose steady in one
corner of the video frame. Heck, who cares if it makes Jolly St.
Nicholas late on his rounds, if it gets a steady reference
object in the video frame with the 'UFO'. :)

Tell potential witnesses (the public) that Rudolph story, and I
suspect they will never forget to try and get some reference
object in-frame during a 'UFO' filming.

Ray Stanford

"You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles." --
Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                     Re: Devil's Hole Nevada - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:15:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:07:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Devil's Hole Nevada - Stanford


>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 14:35:49 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Devil's Hole Nevada

>>>From: Teri Hayes <truthspupl.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 07:54:22 -0700
>>>Subject: Devil's Hole Nevada

>>>If anyone is interested I have created a web site at Tripod with
>>>the remainder of the photos that were taken at Devil's Hole in
>>>the Ash Meadows Wildlife Refuge.

>>>I find them of interest.

>>>You may visit:

>>>http://peterrabbitt152.tripod.com

>>>if you'd like to view the photos and perhaps offer a suggestion
>>>as to the cause of the anomalies presented.

>>On this page:

>>http://peterrabbitt152.tripod.com/id2.html

>>the fact that the "flare" is the same shape in all pictures, and when you
>>turn the camera from "portrait" to "landscape" orientation, the "flare"
>>turns with it, suggests that the origin is in the camera.

>Yes, indeed... and the flare remains the same size regardless of
>the distance to the subject, indicating that it is in fact,
>artifact.

Good point.

Also, the reddish edge shading to the 'anomalies' is absolutely
characteristic of light leakage from the edge of a film, either
due to a cartridge flaw of some sort or, more likely, due to an
improperly closed camera back - maybe with some little something
that caught in the edge in that closure, allowing light to enter
onto the film to various degrees, depending on how the camera
was held in the hand(s), i.e., tightness variations, horizontal
or vertical, etc.

After all, if one is photographing the 'devils hole', 'the
devil' is just bound to get into one's camera.:)

Ray Stanford

"You know my method.  It is founded upon the observance of trifles." -
Sherlock Holmes in The Boscombe Valley Mystery






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                             UFO Review Issue 3

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:11:15 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:09:22 -0400
Subject: UFO Review Issue 3


Issue 3 of UFO Review is now available and is delivered in a PDF
file. This will now be much quicker to download. As usual, it is
free. It can be found at our website at:

http://www.uforeview.net

top left hand button. There you will also find a fledgling web
site from where we can begin to expand and develop further.

Issue 3 contains interviews with Mac Tonnies about Mars, the
Face, artifacts and the landers and with Wendy Connors about her
website, Faded Discs, and her quest to preserve old ufological
recordings and to make them available for researchers.

Also, articles by Kithra about NASA and SOHO and by Sheryl
Gottschall about the differences between the way men and women
approach ufology. And not forgetting of course Andrew Pike with
another fascinating article, this time on Casinni.

Plus, a special offer for UK and European readers concerning
Fate magazine.


Stuart Miller








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:57:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:15:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 07:58:46 -0700
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:42:36 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:10:26 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>Hopefully the members of the "American Psychological Society,"
>>>i.e., the readers of the "The Journal Psychological Science"
>>>will note that any conclusion(s) of Dr. McKnally's study is
>>>flawed, because the components of the experiment are flawed.

>>>He has separated "PTSD victims" from "abductee victims" without
>>>merit, and I propose, scientifically speaking, that until he can
>>>prove that the events described by an "abductee victim" have not
>>>occurred, then his protocol is flawed, therefore; any
>>>conclusions based on this study would have to be re-evaluated.

>John,

>>If you read the paper carefully you will see the main concern of
>>McNally et. al. is to investigate the controversy concerning
>>recovered memories of trauma. One of the main problems with this
>>is that some people argue that the fact that people recalling
>>traumatic experiences show strong psychophysiological responses
>>indicates that their stories must be literally true.

>The question McNally poses is, "Is recollection of "highly
>improbable traumatic ex-periences" [emphasis added] accompanied
>by psychophysiological responses indic-ative of intense emotion?"

Yes, but I didn't say it wasn't.

>>McNally notes, though, " ... we found that adults reporting
>>recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse were more likely to
>>exhibit false recognition of nonpresented words than were adults
>>who reported always remembering their abuse. A subsequent study
>>revealed similar false memory effects in people reporting
>>recovered memories of abduction."

>He describes an abuctees experience as this, "All abductees
>reported at least one episode of apparent sleep pa-ralysis
>accompanied by "hypnopompic hallucinations," [emphasis added]
>usually figures hovering near their beds, flashing lights,
>buzzing sounds, and tingling sensations.

Yes. This makes me wonder if he rejected any people because
their abduction stories didn't fit the pattern that was familiar
to him. One of the problems of any serious study of abductee
reports, is in attempting to define what counts as an "abduction
experience", as distinct from other types of strange experience.

>>In other words, the problem is in attempting to distinguish
>>recall of subjective experiences from recall of real events.
>>McNally et. al. attempt to do this by comparing the _details_ of
>>the abductees' reactions with those of their control group, and
>>also with their records of studies of people with PTSD (although
>>it is not made clear here whether such people who presumably
>>claimed to have had "plausible" experiences actually had them
>>verified).

>This of course is the point; he's taking measurements from two
>groups, one which he "believes" are having "false traumatic
>memories" and one that isn't, without providing data to support
>or oppose either group.

He makes the distinction between plausible and implausible
accounts but, as I pointed out, he doesn't tell us whether or
not any particular accounts which he considers plausible have
actually been verified.

>>In a footnote, it says that "For the abductees, the abduction
>>and stressful scripts were physiologically indistinguishable

>>In contrast, participants with PTSD usually exhibit greater
>>responses to trauma than to other stressful scripts." _Very
>>interesting,_

>He also says, "Although improbable traumatic memories (e.g.,
>being sexually probed on a spaceship) provoke physiological
>reactions comparable to those provoked by more conventional and
>verifiable traumatic mem-ories (e.g., a firefight in Vietnam),
>one should not conclude that PTSD patients are reporting false
>memories of trauma."

His example of "a firefight in Vietnam" is unfortunate in view
of the fact that some dramatic reports of traumatic experiences
endured by US soldiers there have been shown to be false.

>>Although this paper by McNally et. al. is short, it is certainly
>>not simple. Those who are keen to pronounce instant judgement on
>>it should realise that it is obviously not intended to be the
>>last word on the subject. Obviously the questions of the
>>reliability of memory, how to distinguish true from false
>>memories, and how false memories are generated, are very
>>important, and no doubt there will be much more published on
>>this topic.

>There is no argument about the importance of studying false
>memory phenomenon; my point, as previously mentioned, is that if
>one is to "apply science" to a study, or an experiment, then the
>components have to be verifiable, and not "assumed," or in my
>view the entire activity is flawed, as is any conclusions etc.

Perhaps it would be useful if one of the psychologists on this
List could compile a list of apparent faults in the McNally et
al. paper, together with points on which clarification is
needed, and send it to him?


John Harney








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                    Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:08:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:17:49 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Sparks


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 03:14:08 -0500
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:50:43 +0100
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:57:29 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

<snip>

>I am a scientist. That is, I see the world as a collection of
>phenomena and I attempt to classify, quantify, understand them.
>I require evidence in order to form hypotheses, thus I perform
>experiments which either support or fail to support that
>hypothesis. If a hypothesis exists for which experimentation is
>not possible, i.e., the technology needed to adequately perform
>the experiment doesn't yet exist, I don't blame science, and I
>don't think less of those that require no experimentation. I
>simply cannot discuss the hypothesis scientifically.

Your working definition of "science" is still a little bit too
narrow and restricted. It's this kind of issue about having to
lab test something for it to be "science" that drives people up
the wall when that (lab testing) obviously does not work for a
lot of perfectly valid scientific subjects that cannot be taken
into a lab (earth's core, sun's interior, Saturn's rings,
neutron stars). And of course the lab test requirement does not
work for UFOs which cannot be controlled and brought into a lab
to test to prove they exist before scientists will study them.
It is unfair to require that UFO's be brought into a lab for
testing before it can even be considered proper for a scientific
study - I am not saying you are saying that I am only pointing
out that your definition leads to that.

But I am not aware of when it was ever declared an official rule
of scientific methodology that a subject must be capable of lab
experimentation. This tends to be what laboratory scientists say
- because that is what they do. Non-laboratory scientists of
course don't have such a narrow view of the scientific method.

Science has gotten us just about where one would expect in the
UFO field after only approximately 6 months of full-fledged
scientific effort being devoted to the subject in the past 50
years - and by "full-fledged" I mean what typically you have for
recognized disciplines such as solar astrophysics or cetology
(whales) where you have on the order of say 100 James McDonalds
devoting full-time to the study. UFOlogy has never had 100
McDonalds focusing full-time on its study. It doesn't have to be
exactly 100 to be "on the order of" but it has to be a
substantial number and all full-time. Part-time doesn't cut it.

Just like any other subject you have to have a hundred
scientists who live, breathe, and dream UFO's full-time, 24
hours a day, before you're going to get anywhere.

After about 6 months in any field the pioneers have defined
basic terms and established foundational principles but are
still struggling to organize data, establish theoretical
frameworks for hypothesis testing, and trying to get everyone on
board. That is where we are in scientific UFO research. Those
who complain that we haven't gotten very far, well, that's all
we've got after 6 months equivalent of full-time full-scale
scientific effort (100 McDonalds devoted to UFO's). We don't
have 50 years of full-time full-scale scientific work on the
subject, just approximately 6 months of it when added all
together and prorated.


Brad Sparks








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                       Re: Crop Circle Article - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:37:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:19:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Crop Circle Article - Pope


List,

The Independent (a UK national daily newspaper) ran an
interesting story in their review section today, focusing on the
commercial crop circle-making activities of Rod Dickinson and
John Lundberg. Here's the link to the online version:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/story.jsp?story=538392

Interest in the phenomenon more generally is still high, here in
the UK. I was in Wiltshire on Sunday, recording an interview
with an Italian TV crew. We filmed in The Barge Inn, Alton
Barnes, which was packed out with an interesting mix of locals,
'croppies' and overseas tourists.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                                  Toutatis

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:49:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:20:57 -0400
Subject: Toutatis


List,

I've recently been asked by several people whether I've heard
about a potential 'doomsday asteroid' due to collide with the
Earth on September 29, 2004.

There's quite a lot of material on this circulating on the
internet, including for example:

http://www.rense.com/general54/whyIfear.htm

The facts are somewhat different. On the date in question, the
asteroid Toutatis makes its closest approach to Earth for some
time. But this 'close approach' is a distance of nearly one
million miles, which means it will be approximately four times
further away from us than the moon. Here's the page on Toutatis
from NASA's website:

http://echo.jpl.nasa.gov/asteroids/4179_Toutatis/toutatis.html

My purpose in this post is to forewarn people, in case scare
stories escalate and cultists jump on the bandwagon. I'm mindful
of the situation that arose in 1997 with Comet Hale-Bopp and the
Heaven's Gate tragedy.

The threat from Near Earth Objects such as comets and meteors is
very real and something that should be taken seriously. I'm an
Associate Member of Spaceguard UK and can recommend the
organisation to anybody with a serious interest in the NEO
issue:

http://www.spaceguarduk.com/


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 27

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:49:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:24:08 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 27


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 27
July 7, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


CASSINI ENTERS ORBIT
AROUND SATURN

      The robot spacecraft Cassini entered orbit around
Saturn, the second largest planet in the solar system,
early Thursday morning, July 1, 2004.
      "Photos resembling modern art of the dark and
sunlight sides of the rings are visual highlights of
Cassini's seamless entry into orbit around the sixth
planet from the sun.  They were taken as the craft flew
between and past the rings Wednesday night and Thursday
morning."
      "'Citizens of Earth, I bring you the majestic rings
of Saturn,' NASA associate administrator Ed Wiler said at
a briefing at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena,
California, which manages mission operations."
      "Launched in 1997, Cassini is a $3.27 billion
partnership between NASA, the European Space Agency and
the Italian Space Agency that will explore Saturn's rings,
moons, atmosphere and magnetic field."
      "Early Thursday morning," July 1, 2004, "Cassini
completed its most dramatic gravity-assist maneuver,
firing its main rocket engine for 95 minutes.  This slowed
the craft so that Saturn's gravity could force it into an
orbit."
      "Elated mission controllers watched Cassini race
through Saturn's rings at a speed of 68,700 miles per
hour.  It came closer to the planet than it ever will
again before passing back out through the rings and
beginning its four-year orbit outside them."
      "'This was an unprecedented opportunity--closer to
the rings than we've ever been before,' said imaging team
scientist Carolyn Porco of the Space Science Institute in
Boulder, Colorado.  'Mind-blowing' pictures are already
posing puzzles for scientists, she says."
      "For example, clumps of ice-dust particles in one of
the rings 'that look like straw' defy explanation, she
says."
      "The cameras also picked up two small moons, Pan and
Atlas, that haven't been spotted by astronomers for years.
Both act as 'shepherds,' clearing gaps between the rings
and shaping them through gravitational attraction."
      "Cassini's cameras were aimed at the rings rather
than the planet because the rocket engine had to be
aligned in a fixed direction during its braking burn,
fixing the cameras' view as a result."
      "The ring images from the passage are at least five
times better than those from the 1980-81 Voyager missions
that flew by Saturn.  Scientists also collected 75 minutes
of radio-wave data from the far side of the rings, hoping
to learn their composition through analysis of distorting
effects."
      "After its engines put the craft into Saturn's orbit,
Cassini took 61 pictures of the rings, some from the
'dark' side, away from the sun, showing them backlit,
others from the sunlit side showing them illuminated
directly."
      "If all works as planned, Cassini will orbit Saturn
76 times over the next four years, further exploring the
rings, the stormy, windswept gas giant itself, and some of
its 31 known moons, a few of them fascinating worlds in
their own right."
      "Cassini is equipped with a number of instruments,
including radio antennae that recorded sounds from around
Saturn."
      "At Thursday's news conference, scientists played the
moaning sound generated by the solar wind hitting Saturn's
magnetic field.  This 'wind' is made up of streams of
particles that shoot out from the sun and travel more than
one million miles per hour, creating a sonic boom when
they encounter the magnetic field around Saturn."
      "The boom, recorded Saturday," June 26, 2004,
"occurred much earlier and farther away than anyone
expected, suggesting that the planet's magnetic field has
moved since the last spacecraft flew by a quarter century
ago."  (See USA Today for July 2, 2004, "Lord of the
rings: Cassini dazzles with Saturn photos," page 2A; and
the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for July 2, 2004, "NASA's
Cassini begins sending photos of Saturn's rings," page
5A.)


HEAVY UFO ACTIVITY
REPORTED IN CHILE

      Chile is in the middle of a sizable UFO flap.
      Luminous UFOs were seen over the cities of Lanco and
Petrohue the night of Tuesday, June 15, 2004.
      On Saturday, June 19, 2004, "hundreds of people took
to the streets of Ovalle," a city of the 4th Region
located 300 kilometers (180 miles) north of Santiago de
Chile, the national capital, "to witness--in shock and
expectation--a strange circle of lights positioned in the
skies over the city."
      "The characteristics suggest the circle was at least
100 meters (330 feet) in diameter; it blinked and rotated
uninterruptedly in the night sky."
      "Also, certain locations in the city's outskirts
attracted large numbers of people who reported seeing the
same thing.  Radio station telephone switchboards did not
stop receiving calls, creating a sense of alarm, even
among those who had not left their homes."
      "'We received so many calls we had to interrupt our
regular programming and present a special on the subject
in order to offer an explanation about the phenomenon and
provide answers to our listeners,' said Carlos Ossandan,
director of the Communicativa FM radio station."
      "Communicativa obtained the highest number of
listeners in recent months that evening.  However, there
are witnesses who claim having seen strange lights on
preceding days, which could suggest a small UFO wave in
the skies over Ovalle."
      On Tuesday, June 29, 2004, "a strange luminous object
was seen in the skies of Punta Arenas," capital of Region
12, the Chilean Antarctic.  "According to eyewitnesses,
the unidentified flying object frequented the skies of the
city for five days, being seen in various locations."
      "Radio Polar, the local radio station, had its
telephone switchboard collapse due to the volume of calls
received from witnesses of the phenomenon."
      "The (Chilean) Office of Aeronautics reported that it
lacked official records on the strange luminous bolide,
making it clear that it was neither an airplane nor a
helicopter.  They did not, however, confirm that it was a
UFO."
      "Alfredo Vera, correspondent for Radio Polar, managed
to take photos of the object from the Sonadores overlook,
where a large number of people had gathered to watch the
strange object and its irregular movements, which were
foreign to those of any known object."
      "The phenomenon lasted approximately 10 minutes,
which gave him enough time to whip out his SONY Cybershot
3.2-megapixel camera, using it to take several photos,"
which were published in the Chilean newspaper La Cuarta on
Wednesday, June 30, 2004.
      "'It's highly unusual,' remarked Alfredo Vera, Radio
Polar's announcer, "They were startled because the
luminosity was quite strong, and the object moved slowly.
They said it couldn't be something like Jupiter, which
could be the closest thing to it.  It didn't scare me, but
I did get goosebumps because it was very weird.'"
      "Vera took 14 photos but only four came out.  'It's
remarkable that when I focus on the object, I can see an
object that resembles an ornament on a Christmas tree, but
then it fades and is replaced by a point of light.  The
photos show a fiery ball, something red, green, blue,' he
explained."
      "Despite the sensation caused by the sighting,
experts from the General Office of Civil Aeronautics say
it could be 'a star or an optical phenomenon created by
light refraction.'"
      On Tuesday, June 29, 2004, "at 7:20 a.m., several
UFOs flew and executed pirouettes before daybreak some 60
kilometers (36 miles) northeast of Santiago de Chile, in
the vicinity of Llay-Llay and Las Chilcas, where they were
photographed by Juan Serey, 37, who was driving his pickup
truck (south) toward the capital."
      "The witness told La Cuarta that he has spent nine
years driving the same route from the north along the
highway on a weekly basis and had never seen anything like
this before."
      "'It was incredible.  I was driving southward when I
suddenly noticed several powerful lights moving swiftly
and leaping in the sky.  It was spectacular,' remarked the
mechanical engineer."
      "'The lights were suspended 50 meters over the
mountaintop.  A large light opened up, and seven to ten
would gather.  They adopted various shapes, fell out of
order, would rearrange themselves together, and then one
of them took off skyward at prodigious speed, zigzagging
as it went, vanishing in a matter of seconds,' Juan said."
      On Wednesday, June 30, 2004, "A gentleman phoned in
from Tres Puentes," near Punta Arenas, "saying that there
was a light that shone intensely,' said Claudio Vidal,
'People spent a long time watching the phenomenon.  Folks
working at the fisheries phoned in, and, since they
usually get home before dawn, they said the lights have
been seen over the same area for five days straight.'"
(See the Chilean newspaper La Cuarta for June 30, 2004,
"UFOs reported in Llay-Llay."  Muchas gracias a Scott
Corrales, Cristian Quintero y Liliana Nunez para eso
articulo de diario.)


LUMINOUS UFO SEEN OVER
DURBAN, SOUTH AFRICA

      "'The light was so bright, at first I thought it was
a police helicopter searching for criminals.  But when I
could not hear the sound of the rotor blades, I decided to
draw the curtains and check what it was.'"
      "Roshnie Naidu, of Phoenix," a Durban suburb, "could
not believe her eyes when she saw the large, pulsating,
colourful light in the sky."
      "'It looked like a massive ball of light, much
brighter than the sun, with blue and purple colours
filtering through.  My eyes were glued to it for about ten
minutes.  It was unbelievable.  I had never seen anything
like it before,' she said."
      "Naidu told the Daily News she woke up just before 4
a.m. on Sunday," June 27, 2004.
      "She was watching TV when she noticed a bright light
flooding through her curtains.  She did not take any
notice of it at first, but the light continued to shine in
her face."
      "According to Naidu, when she drew the curtains, she
could not believe what she was seeing.  'I still cannot
explain to people who did not see the object what it was.
After a couple of seconds, the object would change shape
from circular to oval.'"
      "She rushed to her daughter's bedroom to wake her up,
but she refused to get up."
      "'When I tried to wake up my husband, he told me I
was seeing things and sent me away.  But I persisted and
pulled him out of bed and opened our bedroom curtains.'"
      "Naidu's husband, Shirama, said he wiped his eyes a
couple of times because he could not believe what he was
seeing.  'I immediately told my wife to call our
neighbours and alert them to what was happening.'"
      "Shirama managed to capture video footage of the
unidentified object that was in the sky."
      "According to the Naidus, the object was in the sky
for at least three hours.  It disappeared as the sun came
up and it (the sky) became brighter."
      "The Naidus said they had no idea of what the object
was and would like someone to explain it to them.  'We are
hoping that someone will be able to view the footage that
we have captured and explain the fireball to us,' they
said."
      "Weather forecaster Ntobeko Nkangana said no object
was picked up in the sky (on radar--J.T.) on Sunday
morning."
      "Nkangana said weather balloons are released only at
midnight and at midday.  The weather balloons remain in
the sky for a minimum of two hours."
      Durban is on South Africa's Indian Ocean shoreline,
about 300 kilometers (180 miles) southeast of Pretoria,
the national capital.  (See The Daily News of Durban,
South Africa for July 1, 2004, "UFO over Durban captured
on video."  Many thanks to Robert Fischer for forwarding
this newspaper article.)


GLOWING OBJECT EXPLODES
OVER NEW ZEALAND

      "A South Island radio station is being swamped with
reports of a meteor strike in the Mackenzie Country" in
New Zealand.
      "People from Christchurch to Timaru say they saw a
bright light streaking across the sky around 9:30 p.m. on
Saturday night," June 26, 2004.
      "Port FM (radio) announcer James Valentine says he
has taken dozens of calls describing the dramatic end of
the meteor's journey."
      "He says it exploded before it hit the ground, and
flames and debris were seen in the sky."
      "James Valentine says a concensus is building around
the idea that the meteor crashed to Earth somewhere around
Twizel" on the South Island.  (See the New Zealand Herald
for June 27, 2004, "Residents report meteor."  Many thanks
to Kirsty MacLaren for this news story.)


CROP CIRCLE APPEARS IN
NEW BRUNSWICK, CANADA

      Canada's first crop circle of 2004 has appeared at
Erbs Cove in the eastern province of New Brunswick.
      According to Paul Anderson of the Canadian Crop
Circle Research Network, the formation consisted of "a
small single ring in wild pasture grass.  It was
discovered the morning of (Thursday) June 24 (2004) by a
couple walking their dog in this rural farming area."
      "The ring is approximately 4.5 meters (15 feet) in
diameter by 1.2 meters (4 feet) wide.  Although rough in
appearance, the grass is flattened in a generally
clockwise direction and starting to stand back up again.
It's located on top of a small hill, in grass 0.6 meters
(2 feet) tall.  No tracks were initially seen.  The field
is vacant pasture land that is hayed each year."  (Many
thanks to Paul Anderson of CCCRN for this report.)


CROP CIRCLES DISCOVERED
IN SPANISH FORK, UTAH

      "Just one day after Gene Bradford watched a
documentary on crop circles, he noticed a strange symbol
made in a wheat field between Salem (population 4,372) and
Spanish Fork (population 20,246)" in Utah.
      "The mysterious code, which is surrounded by three
smaller symbols of the same pattern, surfaced Sunday
morning," June 27, 2004 "and has startled passersby
traveling on (Highway) U-89 in the southern part of
Spanish Fork, just before Salem."
      Spanish Fork is located in central Utah,
approximately 55 miles (88 kilometers) south of Salt Lake
City, the state capital.
      "'You come down a hill and see it,' Bradford said,
'It's kind of one of those phenomenons everyone knows
about.  It's just one of those cultural things that people
are fascinated by.'"
      "Thanks to the 2002 blockbuster (film) Signs, in the
movie, crop circles were said to be a mapping system used
by aliens prior to an invasion.  Many have grown
interested in the designs, which have appeared in fields
across the world for years."
      "Bradford saw the Mel Gibson movie.  Then he watched
a documentary on the crop circle phenomenon.  Intrigued,
Bradford took his brother and children for a closer look
at the strange designs."
      "What he found was either the work of professional
pranksters or a paranormal occurrence, though Bradford
doubts the latter."
      "'It looks like it is well done,' Bradford said,
'It's not one of the most elaborate crop circles that
we've seen.  It's fairly simple.'"
      "Nate Gunderson, whose father owns the neighboring
Spanish Fork Motors, also doubts that extraterrestrial
visitors created the crop circle, though he was impressed
by the appearance."
      "'It's all completely laid flat,' Gunderson said,
after investigating the matted wheat, 'And it's completely
even across the whole thing.'"
      "Gunderson noted that several walking paths are
evident around the circle, though an influx of public
visitors could have created them."
      "Spanish-speaking employees at Spanish Fork Motors,
however, experienced skepticism that humans could have
created the perfect circles."
      "One even mentioned that a dog cried for hours near
the field on Sunday."
      "In Utah, nine other crop circles have surfaced over
the years.  The largest showed up in College Ward on July
21, 1998, the same day that similar circles appeared in
Oregon, Idaho and Belgium."  (See the Deseret News of Salt
Lake City for June 29, 2004, "Mysterious circle crops up."
Many thanks to Steve Wilson Sr. for forwarding this
newspaper article.)


HAARP TO ADD 132 NEW
TRANSMITTERS TO ARRAY

      "The Office of Naval Research has awarded BAE Systems
a $34.5 million contract to manufacture 132 high-frequency
transmitters for installation in the High Frequency Active
Auroral Research Program's (HAARP) phased array antennae
system."
      "The contract was finalized April 19 (2004) with BAE
Systems Defensive and Electronic Warfare Systems in
Washington D.C."
      "In 1992, AT was awarded a contract to design and
build the Ionosphere Research Instrument (IRI), the HAARP
program's primary tool used to study ionospheric physics.
The IRI," located in Alaska, "is currently composed of 48
antenna elements and has a power capacity of 960,000
watts."
      "When installed, the additional transmitters will
give HAARP a 3.6 megawatt capacity.  The HAARP build-out
is jointly funded by the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. Navy and
the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA)."
      "BAE Systems is an international company engaged in
the development, delivery and support of advanced
defensive and aerospace systems on land, at sea and in
space.  BAE Systems Information and Electronic Warfare
Systems is a major producer of aircraft self-protection
systems and tactical surveillance and intelligence systems
for all branches of the (USA's) armed forces."  (See
Business Wire for June 10, 2004.  Many thanks to
"Sourdough Jim and Cheechako" for this news story.)


      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us in seven days
for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers.
If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received
the bulletin in error, please write to:

  <john.nul>

With the subject: Unsubscribe UFO Roundup.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                    Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:54:29 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:52:29 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Miller


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:35:30 -0400
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:12:51 +0100
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:15 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

Steve,

><snip>

>Those of us who have a vain hope of forcing this investigation
>toward a scientific inquiry have a difficult time with some of
>the nonsense we see on the "lists", but that doesn't mean we
>have any desire to stop the discussion or force our beliefs on
>others. Many of those who have been involved in this genre for
>decades have simply backed out of all discussion on the
>Internet, and more will likely do so out of frustration with the
>trends that have evolved in the field. That exodus is likely to
>continue, and it won't be long before the "mystics and new
>agers" have this entire playground to themselves.

At last some honesty.

I will admit to having been a bit dense when this thread started
in as much as it took me a couple of days to realise that there
was another motive working behind some of the responses I was
getting.

I acknowledge the worry that this List is arguably the last
remaining haven of serious discussion on the Net and that if
fringe subjects are allowed to get a hold, then there will be
nothing to distinguish us from some of the more extreme sites.

But we do have someone who watches over that point for us. If a
message is inappropriate, it isn't posted.

But there is a certain hypocrisy here. What seems to have
triggered the avalanche was the mention of "Stargate". I saw no
such reactions to the recent thread on TNG or indeed previous
threads on the same subject that have occurred on this List
regularly. Why's that? It's rhetorical, don't answer.


Stuart Miller








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                Re: Mexican Air Force's Chief Removed - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 17:08:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:02:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican Air Force's Chief Removed - Velez


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 14:23:29 -0700
>Subject: Mexican Air Force's Chief Removed

>Hello all,

>Excuse me please for my translation and syntax.

>The following announcement is not official and will be confirmed
>as soon as I can get in touch with a friend co-pilot who I fly
>with him very often and is the son of General Manuel V. Estrada
>Ricardez apparently  the new Mexican Air Force Chief since last
>may.

>I am looking for official information about the pilot and the
>Flir and Radar operators of the C26A flight on march 05 that
>supposedly were degraded (demoted) in rank.

>Regards,

>Capt. Alejandro Franz
>director.nul

>_______________________________

>Relief in the Mexican Air Force.

>by Mario Overall
>Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 06:09 am:

>Major General Pilot Manuel Victor Estrada Ricardez is the new
>commander of the Mexican Air Force. He releases in the position
>to General Ernesto Oropeza Arcos, only one of high level rank
>that had been ratified in the change of Government.

>The exit of Oropeza Arcos coincides with the unusual revelation
>of the military commands around the presence of Unidentified
>Flying Objects in Sonda de Campeche. The Fairchild C-26
>airplanes that participated in the sighting of past 5th of
>March, comprise of the most important strategy that pushed
>General Arcos Oropeza from his position: The electronic aerial
>monitoring.

>Shortly the squad will be reinforced by three modern Embraer 145
>jets, also acquired under his administration. Oropeza Arcos were
>also one of the six Major generals that had the Mexican Air
>Force in active duty.


Hello All,

I see Capt. Franz is a a Three Card Monty expert! He attempts to
distract your attention with 'slight of hand'.

Reality Check: The personnel change that Franz is talking about
has _nothing_ to do with March 5th or the FLIR recording! Don't
allow Franz to play you for a fool.

An observation if I may:

There is a pattern emerging... along with a display of a
significant amount of desperation that is in evidence among the
rank and file UFO debunkers. No need to name names, they are the
'usual suspects', we all know who they are.

The 'pattern' I speak of is one where spurious attacks are
focused on peripheral issues that do not relate in any way,
shape or form, to the hard data that is contained in the FLIR
recording. I hope everyone is taking note that the usual suspect
debunkers are now hell-bent on trying to discredit the source
(in this case the military branch of the Mexican government) in
hopes of thereby discrediting and tainting the evidence - by
association.

I have not seen or heard any argument from any of these
parasitic debunkers that is based on issues relating to the
evidence itself. Other than the oil well theory - which I
believe will eventually be dismissed completely the second the
Mexican military sends a plane out to shoot/record the oil well
fires as they fly away from them - using the FLIR camera.

All of this squirming and thrashing about by the debunkers, it
begs the question; why are they doing this? The answer is
simple, they now attack the Mexican military, anyone involved in
the investigation, and eventually when released, the analysis
itself, because they have _not_ been able to discredit or
dismiss the evidence itself.

Capt. Franz is going as far as to publicly, and almost
gleefully, trash the reputation of the entire Mexican Military
establishment in a desperate attempt to trash the UFO evidence
contained in the FLIR recording. I imagine by proxy.

Here are some facts:

Franz blathers on about General Ernesto Oropeza Arcos and his
successor, Major General Pilot Manuel Victor Estrada Ricardez
_as_if_ it had something to do with the March 5th case. Gen.
Oropeza Arcos was removed because of "internal affairs" in the
military. It had absolutely _nothing_ to do with March 5th or
the FLIR recording.

The fact of the matter is; the video was released _directly_ to
Jaime Maussan by the Secretary of Defense, General Ricardo
Clemente Vega Garc=EDa. Nobody else is responsible!

Franz would pull the wool over your eyes and have you belive
otherwise. Facts are facts. Neither of the individuals
he cites as 'victims' of the transfer of the FLIR evidence, have
anything to do with it - at all.

Franz would also have you believe that some of the crew aboard
the airplane were demoted, in direct relation to the March 5th
mission. Again, the _real_' facts are; the crew was _authorized_
by Secretary of Defense General Garcia Vega to testify. They
haven't been degraded or shipped out or anything else. But Capt.
Franz would put an entirely different spin on these personnel
changes just to discredit the FLIR evidence.

An act of pure desperation on his part. The same goes for one or
two others who squirm and thrash as they try to trash the case
by trashing those associated with it. All of it the act of
desperate people.

The analysis will be completed in due time. I suggest that
everybody just kick back and wait until it is made public. In
the meantime, I hope everyone can see through these futile,
mickey-mouse attempts to discredit or destroy the very real
value of the FLIR evidence.

I've said it once and I'll say it again; the people of Mexico
should erect a statue of Secretary of Defense, General Ricardo
Clemente Vega Garc=EDa for his _brave_ act, one that is of genuine
public service to all the people of the world. I salute and
respect that man.

Every one please take note of the fact that he is _still_ the
Secretary of National Defense in Mexico. _He_ hasn't gone
anywhere - despite Capt. Franz's allusions/delusions.


My best to All,

John Velez








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                         Re: UFO "Only Venus" - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:18:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:06:40 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - King


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:03:38 -0400
>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:51:05 -0500
>>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:09:11 -0700
>>>Subject: UFO "Only Venus"

>>>Source: The Daily News - South Africa

>>>http://www.dailynews.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=500&fArticleId=2138596

>>>07-05-04

>>>UFO was only Venus, says prof

>>>By Bhavna Sookha

>>>A professor from the University of KwaZulu-Natal has quashed
>>>reports that there were sightings of an unidentified flying
>>>object in Phoenix last week.

>>>Arthur Hughes, professor of physics at the University of
>>>KwaZulu-Natal, who viewed the video footage, said the object on
>>>film was not an unidentified flying object.

>>>"It couldn't have been a fireball as they don't usually last that
>>>long.

>>This statement is self-contradictory.

>>>It also could not have been a satellite as they pass over
>>>quite quickly.

>>Nonsense. Geo-synchronous satellites don't "pass over"
>>at all.

>Clearly he was not speaking of geo-synchronous satellites, which
>are not normally visible to the unaided eye from earth, being at
>about 22,241 statute miles above the earth's surface. So, why
>should he speak of such?

>>>Satellites travel around the earth in 90 minutes,"
>>>he said.

>>Bunk. Satellites travel at different speeds, depending on how
>>far up they are, and whether they are to stay put or orbit the
>>earth.

>In the first place, the professor was making a generalization as
>to orbital period, concerning satellites close enough to earth
>to be readily noticed and mistaken for a 'UFO'. Surely the
>professor knows the attention span of media people, who have no
>patience with in-detail explanations.

>But as to your statement, "...whether they [satellites] are to
>stay put or orbit the earth"! Don't you know that all satellites
>orbit the earth? It is just that a satellite in geo-synchronous
>orbit circles the earth once each day in the equatorial plane at
>approximately 35,786 kilometers (that being 19,323 nautical
>miles, or 22,241 statute miles) above the earth's surface, thus
>staying over the same spot on the earth's surface because its
>orbit is directly above the equator at the aforementioned
>altitude. But, contrary to the literal reading of your
>statement, it is ORBITING, as I said, and exactly once per day.

>You may declare that you really meant that it just does not
>appear to be orbiting, as seen from earth's surface (but that's
>plainly not what you said, even if you allege that's what you
>meant), but because you accuse the professor of being careless
>with words, I point out that you are guilty of doing so.

>Furthermore, I would advise due caution in accusing a professor
>of over-statements, over-simplifications, or contradictory words
>that might, in fact, be due to sloppy media coverage.

>>>"It was the planet Venus.

>>A statement of fact with no supporting
>>evidence.

>Talk about a self-contradictory statement! Have you checked the
>position of Venus in the sky for the place and time of the
>sighting? If not, then it is you who have no basis for your
>statement. I suspect the astronomer did have knowledge of the
>visibility of Venus in the right sky location to cause a
>misperception.

>>>"Venus is visible in the early parts of the morning," he said.

>Obviously he means when the sky is clear of obscuring clouds,
>and you know it. Talk about an unfounded attack on someone and
>nit-picking!

>>Finally, a statement that is almost true. Obviously Venus is not
>>always visible in the morning (fog, obstruction, etc)nor is it
>>ever the ONLY visible thing.

>>KwaZulu-Natal. Is this where you have to go to get hard science
>>like this?

>LMAO! It is you Kyle King, who seemingly need a lesson in hard
>science, as evidenced in your saying, "...whether they stay put
>or orbit the earth"!

<snip>

(contradicting my "last post in this thread" note) I find your
rebuttals inadequate... I think it probably _was_ Venus, for
<gasp> many of the reasons you cited... I simply found the
reporting to be equally inadequate.

A satellite in geosynchronous orbit is fixed in relation the
earth. To anyone who has ever aimed a satellite dish, it is not
orbiting. To someone claiming that satellites "pass over
quickly", the lowly dish installer would simply shake his head
slowly and lock down the dish. I guess we all orbit the earth
right along with the DBS birds.

As for needing a lesson in hard science... Guilty! I need
constant reinforcement on that one. Spending so much time
sifting through these posts absolutely requires constant re-
affirmation of the best aspects of science... it's healthy
skepticism, it's spirit of exploration, it's strict protocols.
Thanks for reminding me of that. One can never be reminded often
enough of the need to keep to the science. Avoid generalization,
embrace fact, seek truth, mind Occam's Razor, and have fun!

Oh, and if I offended anyone from KwaZulu-Natal, I apologize in
the strongest terms. That was just mean. I get so wound up
sometimes.....

Thanks you for responding, Mr. Stanford. You pose some
compelling arguments.


Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

             Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 17:37:18 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:10:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto - Sparks


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 05:55:19 -0700
>Subject: Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:25:15 -0400
>>Subject: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto

>>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:40:00 -0700
>>>Subject: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto

<snip>

>>>Most of the manifestations of the phenomenon receive a
>>>satisfactory explanation, being that they postulate its origin
>>>in extraterrestrial devices lacking of conclusive evidences.

>>I note they say "most" implying that *some* sightings are
>>unexplained and hence *might* be evidence of ET. Hmmmmm... do
>>they really think so or is this just a "sop" to the "masses" of
>>ufologists?

>I think that was not a *sop*, if they are protesting in a
>worldwide manifesto we must accept it was a clear signal that
>they started to believe in ET existence, that it is now a *most*
>and not an *all* as used to be *some* years ago.

<snip>

It is absolutely false that "most" UFO sightings are explained
because witnesses make preposterous and unwarranted claims of ET
origin without "conclusive" or convincing evidence. Most
sightings are described quite properly and rationally by
witnesses merely as "objects" or "lights" and almost never as
"spaceships" or "aliens" or "ETs." Just check NUFORC's indexes
of sightings - by my count about 95% of all cases avoid any
reference to "flying saucers" or ET's or "aliens" or
"spacecraft." Same thing with USAF files going back to the
1940's where it is even higher (more like 99% never call it an
ET or alien ship, etc., and most do not even use the loaded term
"flying saucer"; most of the time such labels as "UFO" and
"flying saucer" have been applied by the reporting agencies
including news media, not by the witnesses themselves).

Most manifestations of the UFO phenomenon are not satisfactorily
explained and most are not postulated by witnesses to be ET
devices. It is a debunker myth fabricated by Project Blue Book
in the 1950's (with predecessors hinting at it in Projects Sign
and Grudge) that claims that most sightings are explained and
that only a residual "few percent" are unexplained. In fact,
very few sightings are explained.

Blue Book's pathetic record was to explain about 11% as IFOs and
hoaxes then it padded the statistics with statistical fraud of
made-up categories of "Possible" and "Probable" which are
scientific hogwash when you examine the cases, and "Insufficient
Data" which in many cases turn out to be _very_ Sufficient Data
but _very_ Unexplained, so it was a deceitful way to get rid of
UFO Unknowns. Some Unknowns are actually insufficient data and
should not have been classed that way either. But overall, most
UFO cases are neither IFO or Unexplained UFO but are
Indeterminate in status due to inadequate investigation and not
due to insufficient data - the next major category after
Indeterminate is of course Insufficient Data.

McDonald in 1968 estimated the Blue Book to actually contain
roughly 30% to 40% Unknowns and not the paltry 5% figures then
being peddled. My examination of a large number of AF files
substantiates McDonald's estimate.


Brad Sparks








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:41:15 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:12:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:34:39 EDT
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 08:58:09 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:48:44 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:10:26 -0700
>>>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>Rather then studying the psychophysiological responses of
>>memories either true or false, it would be nice to have these
>>caliber of individuals studying the alleged events themselves.
>>Prove or disprove these actions before condemning them to the
>>result of "hypnopompic hallucinations" and put that in peer
>>reviewed Journals.

>Again, Thanks Frank Warren!

>I recall an interview with famed abductee specialist Budd
>Hopkins that we conducted with him during the 50th Anniversary
>of the Roswell Incident in Roswell at the military school. Budd
>discussed at length his experiences etc. with abductees which is
>on video as well for us at Parascope Magazine.

>What startled me was his mentioning of a good portion of
>abductees who were fully conscious during their abduction. Did
>this psychology study include these abductees as well?

>That's the keystone far as I'm concerned. Digging around in a
>person's unconscious mind is one thing but just up and asking
>them from their analytical mind is another. There's an easy way
>to find out if it's imagination, modification or just good ol'
>plain straight from the shoulder truth.

I have been waiting for an appropriate opportunity to provide my
2-cents in this discussion, and Greg has just provided it.

There is a lot of data out there on this question, but most
people are unaware of it. My own involvement in study of
abduction cases was done without any use of hypnosis whatsoever,
and I found exactly the same kind of details reported by
Hopkins, Jacobs, et al. I can't give a precise number or
percentage, but can say with confidence that there are lots of
conscious recall cases. They are not always total recall at
first, as others have said, but memories tend to flood back
after a while.

See "Testing Reality: A Research Guide for the UFO Abduction
Experience" by Richard Hall, Fund for UFO Research, 1993;
"Proceedings of the National Capital Area Abduction Conference"
edited by Richard Hall (Fund for UFO Research, 1994).

More importantly, see "The Sympathetic Ear: Investigators as
Variables in UFO Abduction Reports" by Thomas E. Bullard  (Fund
for UFO Research, 1995), which is the result of a survey of
abduction investigators (including me). It includes a section on
"The Role of Hypnosis" (pp. 16-20) which is a very objective
analysis of this issue reported by the highly regarded Eddie
Bullard.


  - Dick









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 6

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:57:08 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:16:38 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Hall


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:08:57 EDT
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 03:14:08 -0500
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:50:43 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:57:29 -0400
>>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>I am a scientist. That is, I see the world as a collection of
>>phenomena and I attempt to classify, quantify, understand them.
>>I require evidence in order to form hypotheses, thus I perform
>>experiments which either support or fail to support that
>>hypothesis. If a hypothesis exists for which experimentation is
>>not possible, i.e., the technology needed to adequately perform
>>the experiment doesn't yet exist, I don't blame science, and I
>>don't think less of those that require no experimentation. I
>>simply cannot discuss the hypothesis scientifically.

>Your working definition of "science" is still a little bit too
>narrow and restricted. It's this kind of issue about having to
>lab test something for it to be "science" that drives people up
>the wall when that (lab testing) obviously does not work for a
>lot of perfectly valid scientific subjects that cannot be taken
>into a lab (earth's core, sun's interior, Saturn's rings,
>neutron stars). And of course the lab test requirement does not
>work for UFOs which cannot be controlled and brought into a lab
>to test to prove they exist before scientists will study them.
>It is unfair to require that UFO's be brought into a lab for
>testing before it can even be considered proper for a scientific
>study - I am not saying you are saying that I am only pointing
>out that your definition leads to that.

>But I am not aware of when it was ever declared an official rule
>of scientific methodology that a subject must be capable of lab
>experimentation. This tends to be what laboratory scientists say
>- because that is what they do. Non-laboratory scientists of
>course don't have such a narrow view of the scientific method.

>Science has gotten us just about where one would expect in the
>UFO field after only approximately 6 months of full-fledged
>scientific effort being devoted to the subject in the past 50
>years - and by "full-fledged" I mean what typically you have for
>recognized disciplines such as solar astrophysics or cetology
>(whales) where you have on the order of say 100 James McDonalds
>devoting full-time to the study. UFOlogy has never had 100
>McDonalds focusing full-time on its study. It doesn't have to be
>exactly 100 to be "on the order of" but it has to be a
>substantial number and all full-time. Part-time doesn't cut it.

>Just like any other subject you have to have a hundred
>scientists who live, breathe, and dream UFO's full-time, 24
>hours a day, before you're going to get anywhere.

>After about 6 months in any field the pioneers have defined
>basic terms and established foundational principles but are
>still struggling to organize data, establish theoretical
>frameworks for hypothesis testing, and trying to get everyone on
>board. That is where we are in scientific UFO research. Those
>who complain that we haven't gotten very far, well, that's all
>we've got after 6 months equivalent of full-time full-scale
>scientific effort (100 McDonalds devoted to UFO's). We don't
>have 50 years of full-time full-scale scientific work on the
>subject, just approximately 6 months of it when added all
>together and prorated.

>Brad Sparks

Brad & List,

I consider myself a fairly savvy proponent of scientific method
(having studied it formally and having practiced it in the UFO
field along with the likes of Jim McDonald, Dick Haines, Allen
Hynek, and Bruce Maccabee for almost 50 years). My hat is off to
you for expressing the core issue so clearly and succinctly
here.

And I have also worked editorially in the field of psychology,
so know something about peoples' desire for "instant
gratification". No instant answers, no relief from doubt and
concern, chuck it out and seize on anything more comforting...
no matter how dubious or based simply on a will to believe.


 - Dick








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 7

                            Re: Toutatis - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:26:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:07:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Toutatis - Boone


>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:49:59 +0100
>Subject: Toutatis


>List,

>I've recently been asked by several people whether I've heard
>about a potential 'doomsday asteroid' due to collide with the
>Earth on September 29, 2004.

>There's quite a lot of material on this circulating on the
>internet, including for example:

>http://www.rense.com/general54/whyIfear.htm

>The facts are somewhat different. On the date in question, the
>asteroid Toutatis makes its closest approach to Earth for some
>time. But this 'close approach' is a distance of nearly one
>million miles, which means it will be approximately four times
>further away from us than the moon. Here's the page on Toutatis
>from NASA's website:

>http://echo.jpl.nasa.gov/asteroids/4179_Toutatis/toutatis.html

>My purpose in this post is to forewarn people, in case scare
>stories escalate and cultists jump on the bandwagon. I'm mindful
>of the situation that arose in 1997 with Comet Hale-Bopp and the
>Heaven's Gate tragedy.

>The threat from Near Earth Objects such as comets and meteors is
>very real and something that should be taken seriously. I'm an
>Associate Member of Spaceguard UK and can recommend the
>organisation to anybody with a serious interest in the NEO
>issue:

>http://www.spaceguarduk.com/


Yes Nick, I believe these new 'doomsday' stories got a beat down
months ago. Glad you're vigilant enough to make sure the public
isn't caught in a sticky wicket over this.

As for asteroids and meteors hitting Earth, what really scares
me the most is:

What happens when a monster sized asteroid hits the Moon? I mean
a whopper of an asteroid? We're all set to protect mother Earth
but 'baby' Moon is out there all alone. If a planet killer hit
it, the shrapnel could turn the surface of the Earth into
something that looks like a teenager with a chronic case of
acne.


Best,

Greg







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 7

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:46:44 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:09:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <nids.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:33:52 -0700
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>NIDS obtained permission to publish the entire McNally research
>article on the NIDS web site at:

>http://www.nidsci.org/pdf/spacealiens.pdf

>Regarding List member's reaction to this paper, some of which I
>have read:

>The journal Psychological Science is one of the more prestigious
>journals in psychology and is also one of the flagship journals
>of the American Psychological Society. It is read by thousands
>of professional and research psychologists worldwide.
>Cumulatively Psychological Science readers hold tens of millions
>of dollars in research grants from NIMH and other grant giving
>bodies.

>My hunch is that the data in this paper will surprise many
>Psychological Science readers in the  psychology research
>community, since it greatly undermines their common perception
>that abductees are merely attention seekers, charlatans etc who
>want nothing more than to get their 15 minutes of fame. The data
>in Dr McNally's paper are saying that the responses of PTSD
>victims and abductees are almost indistinguishable and will
>therefore demolish some commonly-held stereotypes. I believe
>that Dr MacNally's paper may stimulate members of the
>psychological research community to take the next research step:
>to use the tools of fMRI and other brain-imaging techniques to
>take these (to their readers, very surprising) data to the next
>level. That is precisely what is needed in this field.

>As such, I believe Dr McNally's paper is a positive contribution.

I strongly agree with Colm's comments on this and think McNally
et al. have been unfairly criticised over their paper. Their
methodology has presumably passed muster in order to have been
published in Psychological Science, and they seem to have simply
gone where their data took them.

I think there's a wider point to be made about this. I've worked
with a lot of abductees, both when I ran the British
Government's UFO project, and after that tour of duty, in a
private capacity. Abductees and ufologists often told me that
they resented the way the abduction phenomenon was ignored by
the Establishment. My point is that if scientists are
collectively criticised for failing to look properly at
abductions, it's unfortunate that those few who do are shot down
in flames when their honestly reported data don't correlate the
preconceived ideas of those whose minds are already made up.

I was about to send this email when I saw John Harney's post.
Among other points, he suggested that a psychologist on the List
compile a list of apparent faults in the paper and raise the
issues with McNally. I've sent the paper to Chris French and
Julia Santomauro at Goldsmiths College, University of London. I
suspect they'll find it difficult to comment while their own
abduction study is ongoing, but if they do have any views
they're happy to make public, I'll pass them on.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 7

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:11:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:12:59 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - King


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:08:57 EDT
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 03:14:08 -0500
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:50:43 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:57:29 -0400
>>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

><snip>

>>I am a scientist. That is, I see the world as a collection of
>>phenomena and I attempt to classify, quantify, understand them.
>>I require evidence in order to form hypotheses, thus I perform
>>experiments which either support or fail to support that
>>hypothesis. If a hypothesis exists for which experimentation is
>>not possible, i.e., the technology needed to adequately perform
>>the experiment doesn't yet exist, I don't blame science, and I
>>don't think less of those that require no experimentation. I
>>simply cannot discuss the hypothesis scientifically.

>Your working definition of "science" is still a little bit too
>narrow and restricted. It's this kind of issue about having to
>lab test something for it to be "science" that drives people up
>the wall when that (lab testing) obviously does not work for a
>lot of perfectly valid scientific subjects that cannot be taken
>into a lab (earth's core, sun's interior, Saturn's rings,
>neutron stars). And of course the lab test requirement does not
>work for UFOs which cannot be controlled and brought into a lab
>to test to prove they exist before scientists will study them.
>It is unfair to require that UFO's be brought into a lab for
>testing before it can even be considered proper for a scientific
>study - I am not saying you are saying that I am only pointing
>out that your definition leads to that.

>But I am not aware of when it was ever declared an official rule
>of scientific methodology that a subject must be capable of lab
>experimentation. This tends to be what laboratory scientists say
>- because that is what they do. Non-laboratory scientists of
>course don't have such a narrow view of the scientific method.

>Science has gotten us just about where one would expect in the
>UFO field after only approximately 6 months of full-fledged
>scientific effort being devoted to the subject in the past 50
>years - and by "full-fledged" I mean what typically you have for
>recognized disciplines such as solar astrophysics or cetology
>(whales) where you have on the order of say 100 James McDonalds
>devoting full-time to the study. UFOlogy has never had 100
>McDonalds focusing full-time on its study. It doesn't have to be
>exactly 100 to be "on the order of" but it has to be a
>substantial number and all full-time. Part-time doesn't cut it.

>Just like any other subject you have to have a hundred
>scientists who live, breathe, and dream UFO's full-time, 24
>hours a day, before you're going to get anywhere.

>After about 6 months in any field the pioneers have defined
>basic terms and established foundational principles but are
>still struggling to organize data, establish theoretical
>frameworks for hypothesis testing, and trying to get everyone on
>board. That is where we are in scientific UFO research. Those
>who complain that we haven't gotten very far, well, that's all
>we've got after 6 months equivalent of full-time full-scale
>scientific effort (100 McDonalds devoted to UFO's). We don't
>have 50 years of full-time full-scale scientific work on the
>subject, just approximately 6 months of it when added all
>together and prorated.

Thanks, Brad. I see again that terminology is a hindrance. You
mis-interpreted the meaning of experimentation. Scientific
experiments are carried on all over the world without the need
or benefit of a lab setting. In fact, when it comes to aerial
phenomena, the best science is often carried out... out!
Observation, classification, etc, all require leaving the "lab".

It is however impossible for today's science to prove one way or
another that UFOs come from another dimension for example,
because we don't have a methodology, or a protocol, or a machine
that allows us to answer those questions... yet. We have no way
to test a hypothesis which requires a technology we don't
possess. I truly believe that the ultimate Science of Everything
will encompass both Euclidian _and_ Merlinian aspects.
Scientists tend to leave off when spirituality enters the
picture. I think this is as it should be... _but_, the yin and
yang, the duality of science and supernatural will naturally re-
converge. This List is evidence that the process is
underway.....

Odd though, that for many centuries the best science was done by
the church. The priests were the keepers of the truth... it
didn't really work out.

Thanks again for your response. You reinforce the need for
clarity, and the point is taken.


Kyle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 7

                 Re: Changes At The WHY? Files - Richardson

From: Geoffrey Richardson <geoff.nul>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 02:02:14 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:15:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Changes At The WHY? Files - Richardson


>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:32:30 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Changes At The WHY? Files

>>From: Geoffrey Richardson <geoff.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 23:48:20 +0100
>>Subject: Changes At The WHY? Files

Mac wrote:

>I can't find Colin Bennett's Combat Diaries; what's the new URL?

It is with regret that I must point out that I had no choice but
to sever all connections with Colin's site but this should not
reflect badly on Colin.

Ultimately, I hope to publish a full account of the reasons for
the changes at "The WHY? Files" but, in the meantime, if anyone
has valid reason to enquire about this situation, would they
contact me at:

admin.nul


Geoff Richardson








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 7

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:06:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:21:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:41:15 +0000
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:34:39 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

<snip>

>>What startled me was his mentioning of a good portion of
>>abductees who were fully conscious during their abduction. Did
>>this psychology study include these abductees as well?

>>That's the keystone far as I'm concerned. Digging around in a
>>person's unconscious mind is one thing but just up and asking
>>them from their analytical mind is another. There's an easy way
>>to find out if it's imagination, modification or just good ol'
>>plain straight from the shoulder truth.

>I have been waiting for an appropriate opportunity to provide my
>2-cents in this discussion, and Greg has just provided it.

>There is a lot of data out there on this question, but most
>people are unaware of it. My own involvement in study of
>abduction cases was done without any use of hypnosis whatsoever,
>and I found exactly the same kind of details reported by
>Hopkins, Jacobs, et al. I can't give a precise number or
>percentage, but can say with confidence that there are lots of
>conscious recall cases. They are not always total recall at
>first, as others have said, but memories tend to flood back
>after a while.

>See "Testing Reality: A Research Guide for the UFO Abduction
>Experience" by Richard Hall, Fund for UFO Research, 1993;
>"Proceedings of the National Capital Area Abduction Conference"
>edited by Richard Hall (Fund for UFO Research, 1994).

>More importantly, see "The Sympathetic Ear: Investigators as
>Variables in UFO Abduction Reports" by Thomas E. Bullard  (Fund
>for UFO Research, 1995), which is the result of a survey of
>abduction investigators (including me). It includes a section on
>"The Role of Hypnosis" (pp. 16-20) which is a very objective
>analysis of this issue reported by the highly regarded Eddie
>Bullard.


Again, from my surveys of people who self-identify as abductees:

"I have been hypnotized to try to retrieve:"

All abduction memories that I currently have: 5.8%

Abduction memories in addition to those I already had: 15.2%

Not at all: 78.9%

N = 223


Brenda Denzler








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 7

               Re: Aliens Bombard Bush With Invisible Beams -

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:59:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:24:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Aliens Bombard Bush With Invisible Beams -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 06:53:19 -0700
>Subject: Aliens Bombard Bush With Invisible Beams


>Source: WWW.Swans.com

>http://www.swans.com/library/art10/procks30.html

>... What will it take to shake us from our complacency and
>denial about the dire nature of the situation? Perhaps,
>something on the order of: It is revealed that President Bush
>has ordered the walls of the White House be covered with tinfoil
>wallpaper... or, maybe, for him to begin raving that aliens are
>bombarding him with invisible beams - and it was such beams,
>emanating from extraterrestrial mind-control weapons - that
>caused him to fall off that Satanic Segway scooter, and then
>from his bicycle, and then to drop his poor dog... or for him to
>claim he is falling in the polls because red-blooded American
>patriots are being replaced by enemy combatant-loving, French-
>looking pod people in key battleground states.....

Would it not be better and cheaper if he wore an aluminum
full head covering wired to Earth? Is this not the usual
protection from Alien intervention and mind control?

There is a similar problem at number 10 Downing Street. I know,
I've been there and experienced it. Aliens used to hide in a
suite of Armour there and strut their X-factor stuff unbeknown.
Since said Armour was removed the Aliens can be seen and MP's
know when control is exhibited requiring high tension electric
wand defense and high tension electrodes fitted to MP's temples.

One of the problems with this type of defense is that the
electricity applied tends to melt the puppet strings attached to
their heads and other worthless limbs.

:-)

Col








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 7

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:56:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 09:11:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:46:44 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

<snip>

>I think there's a wider point to be made about this. I've worked
>with a lot of abductees, both when I ran the British
>Government's UFO project, and after that tour of duty, in a
>private capacity.

Hi Nick,

In saying the above, do you mean that in an official capacity
with the British government, you worked (officially), "...with a
lot of abductees...", or do you only mean that while you were
working with the government you worked with a lot of abductees
in a private capacity, as well as afterward?

If you worked with abductees officially, can you tell us how
that work was conducted, its methodology, and the results or
official conclusions, if any?

If the work with abductees was official, then it suggests a bit
more openness to such things by the British government, in
contrast with, e.g., that of the government of the U.S.A.


Thanks,

Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 7

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 06:40:21 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:24:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:46:44 +0100
>Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:09:07 -0400
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

<snip>

>I strongly agree with Colm's comments on this and think McNally
>et al. have been unfairly criticised over their paper. Their
>methodology has presumably passed muster in order to have been
>published in Psychological Science, and they seem to have
simply
>gone where their data took them.

>I think there's a wider point to be made about this. I've
worked
>with a lot of abductees, both when I ran the British
>Government's UFO project, and after that tour of duty, in a
>private capacity. Abductees and ufologists often told me that
>hey resented the way the abduction phenomenon was ignored by
>the Establishment. My point is that if scientists are
>collectively criticised for failing to look properly at
>abductions, it's unfortunate that those few who do are shot down
>in flames when their honestly reported data don't correlate the
>preconceived ideas of those whose minds are already made up.

With all due respect Nick (and I do respect you) you should be
aware that the criticism of McNally's study is not over his
data. His data is amazing.

What McNally is criticised for is not for "going where his data
took him" but for steadfastly declining to go where his data
took him, in favor of taking a very safe interpretation of his
data while ignorning the less safe interpretation.

McNally explained his position to the Harvard Crimson in 2003.
"The core findings of this study underscore the power of
emotional belief. If you genuinely believe to have been
traumatized=97even by an alien abduction, which we think is
clearly fanciful=97you show the psycho-physiological profile of
those who have been."

When McNally's data revealed that that experiencers'
physiological responses were as vivid as the responses from
people whose experiences were known to be true (or "more
plausible" as the paper says), he decided to promote one
particular "take" on that data. He announced that he had
dicovered "the power of emotional belief". That was a leap to
the safe, establishment-endorsed conclusion - but it was not the
only conclusion, and a responsible scientist would have been
open to saying that the data lent itself to at least two
interpretations.

And indeed, McNally's one-way spin on his remarkable data is
said to have been criticized by colleagues at Harvard's 2003
Mind/Brain/Behavior Junior Symposium "Schizophrenia, Dreams, and
Alien Encounters", who noted that his data just as easily
supported the theory that the encounters were real.

I'd have actual quotes for you of his colleagues criticising him
for not going where his data took him, but recording devices
(and reporters for that matter) were barred from that symposium
in order to facilitate a more open discussion. I know three
people who attended.

That said, I agree with you that such researchers should not be
shot down. For even if they are entering this field in a
cowardly fashion, walking backwards into the field as it were,
as long as they keep producing interesting data that moves the
discussion forward when others engage their data, we should be
grateful for that new research - even as we are dissapointed by
their personal failings to live up to their own data when they
write their interpretations.

A question on my mind is how and when do we respond in a way
that does not discourage research, while also makes the general
public aware that the opinions or interpretations are not
responsible?

>I was about to send this email when I saw John Harney's post.
>Among other points, he suggested that a psychologist on the List
>compile a list of apparent faults in the paper and raise the
>issues with McNally. I've sent the paper to Chris French and
>Julia Santomauro at Goldsmiths College, University of London. I
>suspect they'll find it difficult to comment while their own
>abduction study is ongoing, but if they do have any views
>they're happy to make public, I'll pass them on.

Yeah, I dont think they'd be wise to comment yet. They should
stay out of the fray till they are done. But thanks for bringing
us word when they are and do.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 7

                            Re: Toutatis - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:47:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:25:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Toutatis - Groff


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:26:55 EDT
>Subject: Re: Toutatis

>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:49:59 +0100
>>Subject: Toutatis

>>The threat from Near Earth Objects such as comets and meteors
is
>>very real and something that should be taken seriously. I'm an
>>Associate Member of Spaceguard UK and can recommend the
>>organisation to anybody with a serious interest in the NEO
>>issue:

>>http://www.spaceguarduk.com/


>Yes Nick, I believe these new 'doomsday' stories got a beat down
>months ago. Glad you're vigilant enough to make sure the public
>isn't caught in a sticky wicket over this.

>As for asteroids and meteors hitting Earth, what really scares
>me the most is:

>What happens when a monster sized asteroid hits the Moon? I mean
>a whopper of an asteroid? We're all set to protect mother Earth
>but 'baby' Moon is out there all alone. If a planet killer hit
>it, the shrapnel could turn the surface of the Earth into
>something that looks like a teenager with a chronic case of
>acne.


Not to mention the effect such an event may have on global
weather. If the moon was destroyed, or its orbit altered, even a
little, the effect on tidal patterns could have unpredictable
long-term effects on our environment.


Terry








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 7

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:57:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:28:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:46:44 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>I strongly agree with Colm's comments on this and think McNally
>et al. have been unfairly criticised over their paper. Their
>methodology has presumably passed muster in order to have been
>published in Psychological Science, and they seem to have simply
>gone where their data took them.

This is about the worst criterion imaginable for assessing the
methodology of a scientific paper. No competent researcher is
going to give a damn what journal this is published in - what
matters is whether the methodology stands up to independent
scrutiny, and whether the conclusions follow from the results.

If we're going to suspend our own judgement in favor of unseen
comments by unknown reviewers, then we may as well chuck the
scientific method out the window and put our faith in religious
fundamentalism. That is absolutely not what peer review is for.

<snip>

>I was about to send this email when I saw John Harney's post.
>Among other points, he suggested that a psychologist on the List
>compile a list of apparent faults in the paper and raise the
>issues with McNally. I've sent the paper to Chris French and
>Julia Santomauro at Goldsmiths College, University of London. I
>suspect they'll find it difficult to comment while their own
>abduction study is ongoing, but if they do have any views
>they're happy to make public, I'll pass them on.

If anyone really wants to follow this up, the the first thing to
do - before contacting McNally or Chris French or anyone else -
is to get the background work done.

The first thing to do is to find the Orr and Roth (2000) article
cited by McNally, and from that, find the means and variances
which correspond to the data in Fig 1 of McNally's paper. And
also find out what sort of traumatization the Orr and Roth
sample were subjected to - one would need to check John Harney's
point about verification of the trauma stimulus. For a number of
reasons I doubt if this will be at issue but it does need
checking.

Secondly, get the up-to-date norms (means and standard
deviations) for each of the psychometric instruments mentioned
in McNally's Table 1.

After that, you might want to email McNally asking for the
following:

1) The exact means and variances of the physiological data
presented in Table 1. (The table itself isn't accurate enough.)
Once you have that, you can check McNally's hypotheses that the
abductee group's physiological response pattern differs from the
Orr and Roth sample's response pattern, by using Analysis of
Variance. There should be a strong main effect of script type, a
strong group effect and a significant interaction between script
type and group.

2) The z-scores for each participant, for each psychometric
instrument used in the study, together with the appropriate
norming information (that is, which normative population each
participant belongs to). He may need the participants'
permission to release this information, but you could certainly
ask him why the z-scores don't appear in the original paper.

I won't be doing any of this myself, I've had enough of trying
to get straight answers out of psychologists - it's a lot of
work for very little result. But if anyone wants any advice on
data analysis or methodology I'll be happy to help out.

By the way, a note to Will Bueche or any other participant in
McNally's study who may be here - were you given your own z-
scores?

Cathy

[Catherine Reason]








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 7

                            Re: Tom, Dick & Kerry

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:00:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:33:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Tom, Dick & Kerry


Source: The Times-Picaynne - New Orleans

http://www.nola.com/living/t-p/index.ssf?/base/living-3/1089186906286220.xml

07-07-04

Tom, Dick & Kerry

Random thoughts from a columnist about to start his vacation
Angus Lind

Speaking of political splits, there's one thing that always
brings this country out of the doldrums, interrupts the
political bickering and unites it. No, I'm not talking about war
or tragedy or terrorism. I'm talking about... UFO sightings!

One good UFO sighting goes a long way. A plethora of them
provides an abundance of therapeutic and refreshing news that is
harmless and entertaining.

And in the middle of a heated political campaign, you can bet
that the supermarket tabloids will claim that either George W.
Bush or John Kerry - or both - had been targeted for abduction
by aliens. It would be perfect. Think about the main side effect
of alien abduction - memory lapses - and isn't that just ideal
for politicians?

Think about the candidates taking their campaigns to Roswell,
N.M., site of an alleged flying saucer incident in early July
1947. An incident that sparked the famous headline in the
Roswell Daily Record about a flying saucer being captured, the
anniversary date of which is Thursday.

By the time the tabloids got finished covering the candidates'
appearances, both of them would be accused of being aliens
themselves. And both sides would say, "I told you so."

The Democrats would say Kerry favors amnesty for illegal aliens.
So does Bush, the GOP would counter. But what would you do with
all those spaceships?


As I said, I need a vacation.

In the worst way.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 7

                                Aliens Again

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:02:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:13:19 -0400
Subject: Aliens Again


Source: The Star Ledger - New Jersey

http://www.nj.com/entertainment/ledger/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/108918577522751
0.xml

07-07-04

Aliens. Again


Let the probing commence. It's time for another generic TV drama
about alien abduction.

Oh, "The 4400," which debuts Sunday night at 9 on USA, doesn't
come right out and say that its title characters - 4400 people
who disappeared over the last century and returned
simultaneously - were snatched by bug-eyed creatures from
Proxima Centauri, but the facts seem plain.

First, there are the early scenes of a handful of the 4400
disappearing, all shot to look exactly like every other UFO
movie you've ever seen. Then there's the large ball of light
that drops them all off beside a Seattle-area lake. And there's
even the presence of Joel Gretsch, one of the stars of last
year's big flying saucer hit, "Taken," in one of the leading
roles.

Obviously, there's money in those little green men and the
people they kidnap, but "The 4400" doesn't even try to be more
than a cash-in project. The creators are Ira Behr and Rene
Echevarria , two of the better writers from the "Star Trek"
spin-offs, seemingly on auto-pilot here. The characters are
thin, the dialogue flat, and the mystery of what happened to
these people not particularly engrossing.

Gretsch plays Tom Racker, a Homeland Security agent whose nephew
Kyle is one of the returnees - and whose son went into a coma
at the same moment Kyle vanished. He's placed in a
Mulder/Scully-ish partnership with the medically-trained Diana
Skouris (the name even sounds like Dana Scully), played by
Jacqueline McKenzie. Their mission? To keep an eye on the
returnees who are readjusting to society and displaying newfound
psychic abilities.

There are a few nice touches in the two-hour premiere, including
a parallel between Homeland Security's attempt to keep the
returnees locked up and the real-life prisoners on Guantanamo
Bay. (An ACLU lawsuit sets the returnees free.) There just
aren't enough to make "The 4400" compelling viewing for anyone
but the most die-hard UFO movie fans.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 7

                      Unsolved Mysteries - Vol 1: UFOs

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:05:50 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:21:53 -0400
Subject: Unsolved Mysteries - Vol 1: UFOs



Source: TV Shows on DVDs

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/releaseinfo.cfm?releaseID=3787

Unsolved Mysteries - Vol 1: UFOs

Unsolved Mysteries-UFOs investigates the most shocking and
mysterious stories of our time. Dozens of crop circles-up to 100
feet across-are being carved in the countryside. Are they a
freak of nature, or UFO landing pads? Did life on Earth begin on
Mars? A startling new theory emerges! Roswell and Area 51. UFO
or Government cover-up? Judge for yourself as host Robert Stack
takes you behind the scenes of these and other best of the
unexplained alien encounters.

UFOs includes 26 segments including: Allagash Abductions, Crop
Circles, Nazca Lines, Vancouver Lights, Roswell, UFO Healing,
Missing Time, Face On Mars, Wheatfields Visitations, Live on
Mars, The Blob and UFO Odyssey and many more!

This information is not complete and will be completed when the
information or time becomes available

Features:

      * Audio Introduction by John Cosgrove and Terry Dunn Meurer
      * Audio Commentary for select episodes by series Producers/
Creators/ Directors
      * Tribute to Robert Stack
* Special Effects Compilation









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 7

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:31:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:25:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:41:15 +0000
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:34:39 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

<snip>

>>I recall an interview with famed abductee specialist Budd
>>Hopkins that we conducted with him during the 50th Anniversary
>>of the Roswell Incident in Roswell at the military school. Budd
>>discussed at length his experiences etc. with abductees which is
>>on video as well for us at Parascope Magazine.

>>What startled me was his mentioning of a good portion of
>>abductees who were fully conscious during their abduction. Did
>>this psychology study include these abductees as well?

>>That's the keystone far as I'm concerned. Digging around in a
>>person's unconscious mind is one thing but just up and asking
>>them from their analytical mind is another. There's an easy way
>>to find out if it's imagination, modification or just good ol'
>>plain straight from the shoulder truth.

>I have been waiting for an appropriate opportunity to provide my
>2-cents in this discussion, and Greg has just provided it.

>There is a lot of data out there on this question, but most
>people are unaware of it. My own involvement in study of
>abduction cases was done without any use of hypnosis whatsoever,
>and I found exactly the same kind of details reported by
>Hopkins, Jacobs, et al. I can't give a precise number or
>percentage, but can say with confidence that there are lots of
>conscious recall cases. They are not always total recall at
>first, as others have said, but memories tend to flood back
>after a while.

>See "Testing Reality: A Research Guide for the UFO Abduction
>Experience" by Richard Hall, Fund for UFO Research, 1993;
>"Proceedings of the National Capital Area Abduction Conference"
>edited by Richard Hall (Fund for UFO Research, 1994).

>More importantly, see "The Sympathetic Ear: Investigators as
>Variables in UFO Abduction Reports" by Thomas E. Bullard  (Fund
>for UFO Research, 1995), which is the result of a survey of
>abduction investigators (including me). It includes a section on
>"The Role of Hypnosis" (pp. 16-20) which is a very objective
>analysis of this issue reported by the highly regarded Eddie
>Bullard.


Thank you ever so much Dick Hall!

Your post is the most world shattering I've read to date.

This data from conscious abductees is the linchpin to this
entire phenomena.

If the data collected from these people covers the demographics,
if it's coming from people from all ages, sexes, educational,
ethnic and religious diversity then for all intents and purposes
it's real. In any court of law it's real. Since we know it's
longitudinal then it's real. No ifs ands or buts.

This data alone cements it as a phenomena, depending on numbers,
worthy of immediate address by the authorities.

I've only seen guestimates at how many abductees there are. If
anyone has a solid guestimate or estimate please point me to the
data.

I would have to assume after 50 years of this subject rising to
the fore that the numbers in the U.S. must be somewhere near one
million. If so, and depending on the assessment of the collected
testimonies, it's no longer an issue to be shoved under the rug
nor nullification by the authorities.

The abductee issue, for my money, should be given the funding
and support by the law enforcement community as a whole. If the
data collected suggests an imminent danger, then more so.

If the data collected suggests it's part of the mechanics of
what we really are then the public need be hatted on it so they
can handle it when it does occur.

I've not read many stories of death and mayhem from an abduction
yet if there are those percentages need be processed and
addressed as well.

Basically, we need the statistics. We need the analysis of those
who glean this data so far and the analysis of those experts who
can separate the chaff from the wheat.

When Budd Hopkins told us in Roswell that some abductees were
conscious during their abductions I was bowled over. That said
to me right then and there that if true, it's easy to tell if
it's imagination, fabrication or true. True to the subject and
then analysis and processing to filter out their opinions and
postulates during the event so we can get the raw actions data.

What I'm saying is this, that data has actions. A person's daily
activities were arrested by other persons. Those persons are or
are not human. Those persons use advanced technologies to stop,
examine, modify other persons or animals. Those abductors return
or do not return, healthy and whole or worse their abductees.

Where these abductors come from, what their agendas are, what
their political beliefs are are speculation of the abductee's
opinions from either assumption or direct communication. Since
those communications aren't recorded for further analysis and
confirmaton we're interested only in their actions. Deeds not
words.

If the majority of these abductions suggest a curiosity so be
it. That's the facts jack. If the majority of these abductions
cause detrimental physical harm, it's a matter of alarm.

It's simple anatomy of actions. Abductions should be classified
in orders of magnitude in relation to the harm caused the
abductee and the potential to harm others.

More data and conclusions need be processed. I'm not interested
in what the 'Space Brothers' have to say about the environment
or peace on Earth. Far as I'm concerned if they were that
interested they should make the announcement themselves or I'm
tossing it out with the washwater. It's what they_do that is of
importance.

Again Dick, if your research corroborates the data from
unconscious abductees then that says alot. Big time.

The psychology study that spawned this thread needs to know that
some abductees are conscious and was that data included in their
study. If not their study is as valuable as the paper it's
written on.

Again, it's up to UFOlogists, the ones that do the beat cop
research to challenge these studies, contact the reference
materials like dictionaries and encyclopedias to make sure their
data on these subjects is complete. The debunkers do. Badger
these resources of research and back it up with the facts
necessary. They can't run away from the facts or their
competitors will get them.

I saw a reference to the Roswell Incident in the World Book
Encyclopedia. It was good til it left off with ' it was a
weather balloon'. You guys with the Roswell facts should take
them to task.


Best,

Greg









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 7

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:16:46 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:28:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:57:32 >+0100
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> To:
>><ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:46:44
>>+0100 Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>I strongly agree with Colm's comments on this and think McNally et
>>al. have been unfairly criticised over their paper. Their
>>methodology has presumably passed muster in order to have been
>>published in Psychological Science, and they seem to have simply
>>gone where their data took them.

>This is about the worst criterion imaginable for assessing the
>methodology of a scientific paper. No competent researcher is going
>to give a damn what journal this is published in - what matters is
>whether the methodology stands up to independent scrutiny, and
>whether the conclusions follow from the results.
 >
>If we're going to suspend our own judgement in favor of unseen
>comments by unknown reviewers, then we may as well chuck the
>scientific method out the window and put our faith in religious
>fundamentalism. That is absolutely not what peer review is for.


Hi Cathy et al,

My two cents.

Peer review, by whom? How does one peer review something that is
at best a cut above reading the entrails of animals.
Psychology/psychiatry is such an inexact science I can't see any
paper being reviewed as such in any helpful manner by those no
more "in the loop" than the rank amateur or anyone who deals
daily with the human condition. Their track record is
disastrous. They very seldom cure anything, nor do they have a
grasp on much of what passes through their field of vision.

I'd once and for all like to see some hard facts to back up
anything that the psychiatric community or the psychologists
have accomplished. Usually if they recognize anything it is
after they have been smacked in the face by it so many times by
the lay public that they have to finally recognize that it's
even there. People have been detained for years as thought to
have been "crazy" when in fact they were not. Psychologists have
been releasing serial killers as cured for years whom in turn
kill again shortly after they have been released. I one case I
aware of the killer was being "treated" by a psychiatrist who
refused to review the man's background as part of his history of
violence, stating that he thought this would taint his
treatment. Can you imagine a doctor in any of the other medical
persuasions taking this approach-denying the patient's medical
history?

How many wars did it take before PSD was "discovered" by the
psychiatric field. How many Vietnam War vets did it take, being
treated by other doctors, before the field of psychiatry
"stumbled" onto the syndrome. How many battered and abuse kids
did it take before that community noted a link between that and
radical social disorders. Who profiled serial killers first, the
psychiatric community or the FBI.

Often the leaders in that field get there not so much by their
cure rate [who determines that one is cured BTW] as by their
years of tenure and the number of unproven papers they have
written. Wouldn't it be fairer to assume that they don't know
what the hell is going on re the abduction field and are hanging
their results on now familiar grounds like PSD when in reality
they have no more of a handle on it than we do?

Not many of then try to think outside the box. Those that do are
usually the agents of breakthrough.

I wonder if John Mack was one of those who peer reviewed
McNally's paper?


Don Ledger









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 8

                           Filers Files #29 - 2004

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul>
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 13:37:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:28:07 -0400
Subject: Filers Files #29 - 2004


Filers Files #29 =96 2004, Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern
Vice President of Skywatch International
July 5, 2004
Webmaster: Chuck Warren


Strange Objects Reported

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. These Files make the assumption that
extraterrestrial intelligent life exists. Patriotism, Traitors
and Terrorism, Spacewalk Coverage Inexplicably Pre-Empted, New
Hampshire - Yellow Orange Red Sphere, New York =96 Saucer,
Pennsylvania =96 Metal Hula Hoop, West Virginia =96 UFO's Play Tag,
Ohio =96 Triangle and Silver UFO, Michigan - Five Oblongs,
Wisconsin =96 Maneuvering Bright Objects, Iowa - Craft Changes
Colors, Texas -Two Star-Like Objects, Arizona - Video Clips of
Lights, California - Formation of Lights, Canada - Circular
Craft, Chile: UFO Flap, Israel - Strong Light, Australia =96 Fast
Lights, and Saturn's Rings.



Mars =96 Dome Closeup

Norman Bryden writes, "This JPL image shows one of the most
remarkable structures I have seen on Mars and there is what
looks like an enormous dome structure over a metropolis of many
modern looking structures." There are buildings of all kinds,
flat sides, sharp corners and other structures that have a
styled look to them. Most of the buildings are in good shape and
look they could be recent as well as ancient. The dome has
transparent qualities, and the sides of the dome can be seen at
the bottom of the image and around the geometric perimeter of
the enclosure. The center has many building shaped structures
and roads leading away to the outer edge sections. The road,
path or corridors that lead away from the center enclosure near
the top seem to go beneath the dome edge where there are other
building structures, subterranean looking entrances and walls.

On the left there is what seems to be a huge bridge or overpass
structure. Some of the walls and edges have a modern curve to
them. All of this seems to say something about the Martians
spiritually. They wanted to be seen and they have an
appreciation for aesthetics. The Martian species are a
subterranean species as well as an open, visually modern society
that seems to be able to coexist with success. This gives us
hope of one day possibly having open peaceful contact. Thanks to
Norman Bryden. Storm


Sunspots =96 Highest in a 1,000 years

A new analysis shows that the Sun is more active now than it has
been at anytime in the previous 1,000 years. Scientists based at
the Institute for Astronomy in Zurich used ice cores from
Greenland to construct a picture of our star's activity in the
past. They say that over the last century the number of sunspots
rose at the same time that the Earth's climate became steadily
warmer.


Spacewalk Coverage Inexplicably Pre-Empted

Jeff Challender =96 Director Project P.R.O.V.E writes, "On the
30th of June 2004, ISS crewmen Gennady Padalka and Mike Fincke
exited ISS (International Space Station) from the Russian built
PIRS airlock module wearing Russian made Orlan space suits with
a combination of American and Russian equipment. The mission to
replace a failed circuit breaker powering the control moment
gyroscope was successful. There had been an unsuccessful attempt
to perform this space walk on 24 June, but this one had been
cancelled after only 14 minutes, due to an incorrect valve
setting on Astronaut Fincke=92s space suit oxygen system. This
event WAS covered live.

In the days and weeks leading up to the space walk, during
NASA=92s daily TV coverage of ISS activities, it was announced
again and again that a 6 hour EVA (Extra-Vehicular Activity)
would be broadcast live in its entirety. Even as late as 11 AM
CDT, on 30 June, this was the case. The coverage was to begin at
3:30 PM CDT, and the EVA to start at 4:40 PM CDT, with the
opening of the airlock hatch to the vacuum of space. When 3:30
arrived, NASA was running its =93Education Hour=94, a program
designed for grade school students. Not a particularly high
priority show. At 4 PM there was a press conference with Cassini
scientists. Later, there were a series of live interviews with
scientists associated with the Cassini probe. These were strange
affairs in which the scientists were obviously being asked
questions verbally, which the viewer could not hear. Then the
scientist would give an answer to the unheard questions. It was
like being in a room listening to someone carry on a telephone
conversation. Because one could not make sense out of half the
conversation, it was valueless to the viewer. Certainly not a
reason to pre-empt the space walk.

On the NASA Select TV web page, the reason given for this sudden
change, made sometime within a 4.5-hour window, was to cover the
orbital insertion of the Cassini probe around the planet Saturn.
However, this event was not to take place until much later that
night, around Midnight CDT. It was stated that the EVA was
available on an alternate satellite frequency, available ONLY to
those with non-subscription satellite dishes and the proper sort
of receiving equipment. There was no logical excuse for this
change, UNLESS one takes into account the anomalies observed
during the last space walk from ISS, broadcast live on 25
February 2004. There was PLENTY of time for NASA to broadcast
BOTH events. I personally see this as fear on the part of NASA
officials. They are afraid of what the public might see. So they
resorted to very suddenly canceling live coverage of the space
walk. Instead we were treated to some 7 hours or so of
uninspiring =93filler=94.

What was eventually seen of the space walk were highly edited
clips, taken apparently at random, over the next few days.
Naturally, if there were any anomalies seen, such as in the 25
February EVA, they were certainly edited out of the version
released to the public. We the people PAY for NASA=92s budget!! We
have a RIGHT to see what they are doing with it. These erstwhile
=93public servants=94 are treating you and me like children. I, for
one, don=92t like it at all! =A9 2004 Jeff Challender =96 Director
Project P.R.O.V.E.

New Hampshire - Yellow Orange Red Sphere.

BOW - It started as a yellow orange and red blinking light
moving up and down and side to side at 9:30 PM, on June 21,
2004. The lights were not making much movement until all of the
sudden it started to move up very quickly. It then started
moving east still blinking until it was almost right over us.
The shape could be made out as a sphere with blinking rotating
lights on the sides. The rate at which it moved across the sky
was incredibly fast. It soon became out of sight as it had moved
right. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/

New York - Saucer and Flash

RICHMOND HILL =96 The witness was on the phone and saw a bright
red light at 9:30 PM, on June 21, 2004, and thought the light
was coming from outside. He states, "The object looked round
like a disk and was so bright that its light was beaming below
the craft making the object look kind of like a jellyfish with
it's body hanging below it." The bright light lasted for about
three seconds. About two minutes later I saw a clearer craft. It
was the same shape and the lights were even brighter red. Both
objects seemed far away, but very visible. The second craft kind
of floated around wobbling like it didn't know where to go and
then it just disappeared very fast. It was like one minute it
was there so clearly and the next it was gone. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

NIAGARA FALLS - Pattie Eagan writes, "We visited Niagara Falls
last night [June 26] and while we were driving back to Buffalo,
approaching the Grand Island bridge about 10:50 PM, I observed a
streak of light with a tail three inches long." It had a head
like a comet, kind of square the size of a pea, white bright. In
front of this main light with the tail, was another faint light
with a very faint tail. There was the main comet-looking light
with the tail with what appeared to be two escort lights. These
lights were brighter than anything I had ever seen in the night
before. I watched it for about 45 seconds to 1 minute go across
the sky. My husband was in the Marine Corps for 24 years and has
never seen anything like it. He said there is an airbase but
these were not aircraft, and they were moving too slow for a
shooting star, and way too fast and close for a comet. They were
fairly close like the height of an aircraft in our atmosphere.
We knew it was some sort of craft because it was moving like
one. It was really an awesome sight, extremely bright. Thanks to
Pattie Eagan

Pennsylvania =96 Metal Hula Hoop

POLAND =96 Marilyn Ruben writes, " Dad's cousin and I had a
possible UFO sighting on Wednesday, June 30 around 8:30 p.m.
driving on state route 224 near the Ohio border." We were
returning after a long awaited trek to the old family homestead,
so mentally, we were quite alert. I was driving and Eileen was
in the passenger seat. The weather was in the 70's, and sunny.
Evening was approaching, as I noticed about a dozen low flying
puffs of what at first appeared to be bonfire smoke blowing
above the street from south to north at a height of about 3x
that of the farmhouses. Then I realized the smoke was too white
to be smoke, and decided it must be very low wisps of clouds.
That was when I noticed a solid metal rounded gray ring floating
along with the wispy clouds. I asked Eileen if she could see the
metal ring, and she indicated she could. We were both amazed and
wondered how a metal ring could float over the road without
falling down out of the sky? Ironically, Eileen who is a serious
skeptic, was the first to ask if this could be a UFO?

The ring had the appearance of a very thick metal "hula hoop"
and was the size of two or three fingertips at arm's length. I
quickly asked my teenage daughter sitting in the back seat to
snap a picture of this, but she said she could not see anything.
Meanwhile, Eileen and I watched this light gray circular object
which had a distinct dark edge to it, but which was totally
transparent inside the circular area because the real clouds
higher up in the sky shone through it. The object seemed to be
periodically bending in on the side away from us, but that could
have been caused by gravity distorting the light waves giving it
the appearance of bending. When it went out of my visual range
over to Eileen's side of the car, she said it vanished into thin
air. Thanks to Marilyn Ruben

West Virginia =96 UFO's Play Tag

WHEELING - It looked like a small star, but it was moving at
speeds that were impossible at 10:43 PM, on June 19, 2004. It
was all over the sky like it was playing tag with the stars and
would fade out and then comeback it did that for about a whole
minute. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/

Michigan - Five Oblongs

HOLLY =96 The witness was driving his mother-in-law home when I
spied a reflection in the very upper 1/4 of his windshield that
followed them me on June 19, 2004, just after 1 AM. I kept
trying to see if it was a reflection from a street light but
even when I was not near any lights it was still there. She
looked up and forward and he states, "I saw quick flashes of
light dance ahead of me, there were five that appeared to be
lighted oblong shaped clouds moving overhead just above the
Holly donut shop." Gradually their number dwindled down to four
and then three. And they would go strictly in a plain circular
motion for awhile and then they would start to dip and dive. It
looked as if they were chasing each other. It looked like they
may have been playing but their movements were smooth, graceful
and beautiful to watch. The air was thick and hazy and  there
was not a cloud or star in the sky. My mother-in-law saw the
same as I saw. There was a pay phone right next to my jeep so I
called my husband. When I first picked the receiver up before
even placing any quarters into the slot I heard this terrible
static that was very loud. When I placed the quarters into the
slot I still heard the static. I tried 3 times and on the third
try I was able to get thru. My husband was able to make it in
time to see what his mother and I were witnessing. I had him
bring my camera but the pictures came out black with nothing in
them. We watched them some more and then they hovered together
and disappeared...poof! Into thin air. If they were not UFOs I
do not know what else they could be? Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

Ohio =96 Triangle and Silver UFO

COLUMBUS - Three lights in a triangle shape that eventually
lined up and moved farther away until we couldn't see them any
more at 1:02 AM, on June 19, 2004. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

NEWARK - Driving home from work, on Route 16 going west at 4:12
PM, on June 21, 2004, the witness noticed a strong flash behind
and above an airplane in a clear blue sky. It looked as if
someone flashed a mirror. The observer states, "When I focused
on the object it looked silver (like the sun reflecting off
highly polished chrome) of no discernable shape about the size
of 1/2 a tic-tac mint held at arm's length." I also observed an
airplane, which was about the size of an aspirin held at arm's
length-below the object and to the left. The object was well
past the tail of the airplane, 1 1/2" thumb to forefinger held
at arm's length from object to airplane. The total observation
time was 3 to 5 seconds. ((NUFORC Note: Heavens-above website
does not indicate that the flash from an Iridium satellite would
have been visible at the time indicated by the witness. PD))
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

FOSTORIA - George Ritter took this video of a UFO that appears
to land behind the farm last week.

Wisconsin =96 Maneuvering Bright Objects

ONALASKA =96 On June 22, 2004, a professional couple with
excellent reputations were sitting on their patio facing east
when they noticed a large bright object proceeding north at a
rapid, steady pace. The object faded, then disappeared when it
reached about the center point of the skyline. Moments later,
three smaller objects were observed moving in irregular patterns
in small regions of the sky surrounding the spot where the first
object disappeared. The objects were solid and light reflective
and about the altitude commercial jets fly. These were no
ordinary craft as they changed both altitude and range in jerky
and sometimes shaky motions. They exhibited zigzag patterns,
back and forth motions, rounded or circular fire-fly like flight
patterns. They changed directions at will and at an incredible
speed. They were capable of hovering, then traveling at several
thousand miles per hour and making a 180 degree turns. They flew
in just one area with a haze around them and no sound could be
heard. I brought my wife and 18 year old daughter outside and
they too sat in chairs and agreed that they saw the objects and
that there was irregular, freakish, awesome movement. We then
began noticing that several bigger, brighter objects were
traveling across the sky. Two flew north together while others
flew south. Later, many smaller objects, all with jerky,
rocking, up-down, fire-fly, flew at incredibly fast speeds. My
wife found it important to rationalize these away as military
aircraft defending us from terrorists. Duration: 75 minutes.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

Iowa - Craft Changes Colors

AMES =96 The witness writes, "My aunt and I were looking at Venus,
at 9:58 PM, on June 21, 2004, when my aunt saw a red, blue, and
white flashing object appear that seemed to have come from
Venus." It was conjoined with a second object just like it and
flew south in a zigzag pattern, then north again. As I was
watching my aunt saw a second object come from Venus again that
moved the same as the first. Since the trees were again blocking
our view, we moved east. The first object descended somewhere to
the north of us while the second one headed west and descended
also and might have landed. There was no vapor or jet stream
from either object. The objects made no sound. We think both
objects landed either in town or the outskirts of town. One of
my aunt's friends also saw a disk shaped craft on June 16, in
Ames. http://www.ufocenter.com/

ALBIA =96 Two friends were camping in a tent in my backyard around
10 PM, on June 20, 2004, looking at the stars through the air
vent at the top of the tent. They saw a red light they thought
was a plane, but it faded to white, and then bright blue. It was
not one big light, but several little lights in the shape of a
triangle. We watched it dart across the sky and then hover for a
few minutes. It looked like it was rotating, and then it
appeared round. Its lights would change from red to white as it
spun. After a few minutes of hovering it shot up even higher
into the sky. It hovered there for awhile, and we went inside to
go tell my mom. When we returned the lights were gone. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

Texas -Two Star-Like Objects

ROUND ROCK - An amateur astronomer who spends a fair amount of
time watching the sky was sitting in his driveway about 4:30 AM,
on June 20, 2004, when he noticed a bluish colored star like
object moving rapidly north. He assumed it was a satellite,
until it began to make a swing towards the northeast. By the
time he returned with 8 x 50 binoculars, it was gone. Roughly
one minute later, a second, similar object appeared on the same
trajectory. Through binoculars, it looked like a satellite or
star. The second object also turned slowly toward the northeast,
dimming slightly. Initial brightness of both objects was zero to
first magnitude. The impression was of very fast moving objects
at great altitude. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/

SAN ANTONIO =96 Two co-workers were leaving the hospital medical
center at 3:45 PM, on June 22, 2004, when they saw something
fairly high in the sky that looked like a Mylar balloon. One
witness was retired military and had flown different types of
aircraft. The object hovered and rotated in the blue sky with
some fluffy white clouds. Occasionally, it would catch the sun's
reflection and blend in with the blue sky. We were facing south
and the wind was coming from a westerly direction. Twice this
object made sharp rapid movements to the west and stopped and
continued to hover. We both stood and watched for about ten
minutes and agreed that this was no plane, helicopter, or blimp.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

Arizona - Video Clips of Lights

AVONDALE =96 Brian Vike HBCC UFO Research reports, "The observer
got some video of strange moving lights taken with his Canon Elf
in the wind who states, "My girlfriend and I were witness to
string of 17-20 lights. On June 16th I got my video camera out
and got some night video. Two lights then five, then back to two
moved slowly behind the Estrella Mountains. One burned out then
reappeared above where it started. We live in Avondale which is
to the west of Phoenix, 2.8 miles to the west is Goodyear
airport, 18 miles north is Luke Air Force Base. Now the base
already made a statement of not dropping any flares on that day.
You will hear on that news clip that the military have been
trying to fly planes near them, but the lights go out. A plane
with a flashing FAA light goes through the video between me and
the activity about 34 seconds through the tape. The video clips
shown are =A92004M from Di Silvestro. You can see the Video Clips,
but please respect the gentleman's copyright as he is kind
enough to share the clips with us all.
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D14
83 Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research

California - Formation of Lights

BREA, ORANGE COUNTY =96 The witness was driving west on Imperial
Highway at 10:15 PM, on June 20, 2004, when he was startled to
see a formation of lights gently angling from the southeast to
the northwest, and then northeast. There were about seven lights
making up the south-lying line, and one or two making up the
north-lying line. There seemed to be one light at the tip, that
was like seeing a marquee and tip of a triangle pointing and
moving in the same direction as my car. The color of the lights
was uniform - a pinkish gold, similar to street or parking lot
lights. The size of each light was not impressive - about the
size of a light from an airplane or jet. It was the formation of
these lights that was startling. The lights moved completely
uniformly, causing me to think that they formed the perimeter of
a dark triangular or arrow-shaped object in the sky. I phoned my
brother who suggested I retrace my steps. I retraced my path,
but the light formation in the sky was gone, nor could I see how
any reflections or glare could explain them. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

SANTA MARIA =96 The witness saw two stars to the right of the
crescent moon about as bright as Venus that he knew didn't
belong there. At 8:30 PM, on June 22, 2004, he got out his 4-1/2
reflector telescope, but could not find them so he ran to get
his binoculars. He reports, "The objects did not twinkle like
stars; they were just solid steady lights that had moved apart
just a little." He tried to find them with his telescope, but
they were gone by 8:40 PM, he noticed Jupiter was visible, but
the objects had disappeared. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/

Canada - Circular Craft

TORONTO =96 Two roommates were sitting on their patio having a
smoke, enjoying the night sky at 12:50 AM, on June 23, 2004,
when above they noticed a large circular craft, glowing whitish,
traveling at a great speed, and making some incredible turns.
The witness states, "I live downtown and noticed a base-ball
sized dimly glowing circular object in the sky directly above my
house. The dim white light passed directly over us, moving in
west along DuPont Avenue making a number of amazing turning
maneuvers and moving at a seemingly incredible rate. After about
twelve seconds it was on the western horizon no longer visible.
This was something I had never seen before. Thanks to Brian Vike
http://www.hbccufo.com/

Chile: UFO Flap

Llay-Llay - Several UFOs flew and executed pirouettes before
daybreak June 30 2004, some 60 kilometers northeast of Santiago,
where they were photographs by Juan Serey, 37, who was driving a
pickup truck toward the capital. The witness told La Cuarta, "It
was incredible. I was driving southward when I suddenly noticed
several powerful lights moving swiftly and hanging in the sky.
It was spectacular and lasted ten minutes," remarked the
mechanical engineer so he had enough time to whip out his Sony
Cybershot 3.2 megapixel camera, and take several photos. "The
lights were suspended some 50 meters over the mountaintop. A
large light opened up and seven or ten would gather, adopted
various shapes, would rearrange themselves and then take off at
a prodigious speed, zigzagging and vanishing in a matter of
seconds," said Juan.

PUNTA ARENAS,.- A strange luminous object was seen in the skies
of the capital city of Chile's 12th Region on June 29, 2004, and
for five days. Radio Polar, the local radio station, had its
telephone switchboard collapse due to the volume of calls
received from the UFO witnesses. The Office of Aeronautics
reported that it lacked official records on the strange luminous
bolide, making it clear that it was neither an airplane nor a
helicopter. They did not, however, confirm that it was a UFO.
Alfredo Vera, correspondent for Radio Polar, managed to take
photos of the object that was witnessed by a large number of
people who had gathered to watch.

In June 1968, two pilots of Aerolineas Argentinas and 18
passengers witnessed a shiny red cylinder "flying saucer" over
Punta Arenas. Incredible film footage was obtained in 2003,
showing 3 UFOs separating and joining near a Chilean military
base. UFO's were sighted over the cities of Lanco and Petrohue
on June 15, and over Ovalle on the 19th. Thanks to: Scott
Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology Translation (c) 2004.
SOURCE: Planeta UFO

Israel - Strong Light

HAIFA - The witness was sitting in his window at his house in
Kiryat Bialik, when he saw a flying light above Carmel Mountain
at a quarter after midnight on June 20, 2004. It was something
like 80 meters above the mountain, and flew for ten seconds
before it disappeared. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/

Australia =96 Fast Lights

DEVON MEADOWS, VICTORIA =96 The witness was out walking when a
weird shaped object hovered above his head at 1:02 AM, on June
19, 2004. He states, "It was a bright light that took off as
soon as I looked up. It was going so fast that I could only
watch it fly though the sky for about three seconds." It was
very bright and changed color as it went thought the sky. Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

SATURN-RINGS and Strange Anomalous Object Center Right

N00006491.jpg was taken on July 01, 2004 and received on Earth
July 01, 2004. The camera was pointing toward SATURN-RINGS at
approximately 127,127 kilometers away, and the image was taken
using the CL1 and CL2 filters. This image has not been validated
or calibrated. A validated/calibrated image will be archived
with the NASA Planetary Data System in 2005. In sucessive images
the object appears to move. Thanks to R. David Anderson

WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW WHEN BUY OR SELL REAL ESTATE! Get your free
report and learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent
to help your buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this
report e-mail me at: Majorstar.nul

For This Research To Continue Your Support Is Critical

Dear Readers - Filer=92s Files has been brought to you free on a
weekly basis for seven years. I'm requesting a donation $24 per
year to enable me to continue with Filer=92s Files. These files
can not exist without your help. Donations can be sent to:
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for majorstar.nul

You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or Master charge.
You can also mail your check to

George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL - For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/.  To ask
questions contact MUFONHQ.nul or HQ.nul "The MUFON
Journal is now accepting qualified advertising; please call 1
(303) 932-7709 for more information."

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2004 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites
if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar.nul Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to
keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION MOST OF THESE ARE
INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George A. Filer
www.GeorgeFiler.com/














   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 8

                        New Varginha Case Revelations

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:23:44 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:30:37 -0400
Subject: New Varginha Case Revelations


VARGINHA CASE:

New revelations about the capture and medical treatment of alien
creatures in Brazil, January 1996

After eight years from the principal episodes of the Varginha
Case, predictions that the volume of information would
substantially increase with time are confirmed. However, as with
all similar episodes, the volume of information turns difficult
the establishment of certainties. We know that facts are proved
with witnesses, but the complications arising from human reports
turns any investigation into a real challenge in the quest for
the truth. Among the many aspects involved in this process we
should mention the emotional one, which may produce a series of
statements uncommitted with the objectivity required to lead us
to the truth.

Considering that an uncommon occurrence make people offer their
own interpretation influenced by personal beliefs and trends
from their own social environment, only the research carried out
directly in the places and situations in question allows us to
have some confirmation. Among the reliable statements - even
though depending on analysis grounded on a wider set of data or
rare evidence - we should point those from individuals from the
environment where the facts supposedly occurred.

Military Witnesses

In the beginning of 2003 Varginha was visited by Roger Leir, US
ufologist and acknowledged physician, whose experience of more
than 50 years as a UFO researcher lead him to different kinds of
occurrences, such as the cases of implants supposedly made by
alien surgical intervention. This visit was an opportunity to
verify the effective existence of some secret witnesses of the
Varginha Case, which since 1996 was always affirmed by
researchers. This was already shown in 1997 when representatives
of local and national press were selected to watch - upon
ethical commitment of absolute secrecy - two video-recorded
interviews with military witnesses who took part in the event.

At the same time we may not consider as evidence statements
given in secrecy - therefore of restricted or none value -, it
is crucial to prove to the population and scholars in general
that these statements really exist. With this objective Roger
Leir was taken to the office of a colleague - an acknowledged
doctor in Varginha with more than 30 years of work who belongs
to one of the most traditional families of that region. Called
by the US ufologist as "Doctor", he agreed to receive Roger
Leir, after a natural hesitation, to confirm what he had seen in
January, 1996 inside an appropriate room at the Regional
Hospital, south of Minas Gerais. During more than three hours of
talk, Roger Leir heard from his Brazilian colleague the
confirmation that a second creature of uncommon physical
appearance was captured. The "Doctor" revealed a new detail
unknown to researchers till that time.

Injured Creature

According to the "Doctor" - who refuses to reveal his real name
- the body presented injuries of different kinds and grades. He
said he was urgently called by the military staff responsible
for keeping the creature and described his astonishment in front
of something never seen or reported before. His statement
regarding the appearance of the creature is not different from
many other descriptions of other witnesses, but he said the
creature was surely alive when he saw it.

This declaration is part of an ever increasing pile of witnesses
including military, police officers, doctors, hospital officers,
civil witnesses etc. We should not forget, however, the
necessity to select the gathered information, which sometimes
may receive the direct influence of the investigator. Here is
one example especially chosen to emphasize the neutrality of
arguments, so important for the discussion of UFO or similar
occurrences. One of the procedures preferred by ufologists of
the so-called objective line - not mystical - is to focus their
attention to statements free of personal impressions, especially
those where witnesses talk about their own emotional alteration
at the moment of their experience.


The "Doctor" - initially insisting that it was a colleague who
was called by the military to the referred hospital - eventually
admitted that he was the doctor in question and decided to trust
his US colleague telling everything. The "Doctor" was touched
and giving us a new detail about the case with a serious
expression on his face he said that when he was trying to
examine the injuries of the being he felt suddenly "as if my
hands were automatically driven" and "it was as if the lights
suddenly became yellowish", and "my perception was somewhat
enhanced". These are transcriptions of what he said.


The "Doctor" also said that he could not understand the
physiological constitution of the body we was examining even
though it was an anthropomorphic being, with head, trunk and
members. The "Doctor" did not hear any sound made by the
creature neither mentioned the famous "thin, bifurcated tongue",
reported by other medic and military witnesses. He said he had
seen its slow movements, proving it was still alive, but refused
to say if it was breathing.


Here is the example of the difficulties found in statements like
this. We don't know to which extent the psychological impact and
emotional alterations of a professional before the unknown would
influence him to the point of causing uncommon sensations. For
obvious reasons such alterations may occur much more in persons
with technical knowledge and refined culture. The contact with a
situation not explicable by academic assumptions means increased
sensitivity to such shocks. Therefore, the reported impressions
could be a simple result of this. It would be absurd to take the
detail of a supposedly psychic interaction between the creature
and the doctor as an effective signal of intelligence of the
being or - even more absurd - that the "Doctor" was in contact
with something with telepathic or similar powers. These kinds of
assertions, however, are not uncommon.

Complications in the Research

With time, hopes of new information and other confirmations
about the Varginha Case are partially satisfied. But there is
the risk that they come each time more characterized by
complications. For now, the most significant of these
complications is the denial of the institutions involved from
the beginning, such as the Army, hospitals and others. Even if
we had access to a detailed report composed by examinations,
analyses and full data about the material resulting from the
episode, the effective existence of the said creatures of
Varginha could only be confirmed if officially admitted. While
this does not happen, ufologists, researchers, skeptics, and
curious and interested people can only keep on the further
discussion about the case.

More revelations to come very soon.


Written by Ubirajara Rodrigues
Translated by Eduardo Rado
Released by A. J. Gevaerd
Published in Brazilian UFO Magazine

---------

This material belongs to Brazilian UFO Magazine, published in
the edition #100, June, 2004. Authorized reproduction if source
and website informed: www.ufo.com.br.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 8

                             Re: Toutatis - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:18:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:57:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Toutatis - King


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:47:33 -0500
>Subject: Re: Toutatis


>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:26:55 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Toutatis

>>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:49:59 +0100
>>>Subject: Toutatis

>>>The threat from Near Earth Objects such as comets and meteors is
>>>very real and something that should be taken seriously. I'm an
>>>Associate Member of Spaceguard UK and can recommend the
>>>organisation to anybody with a serious interest in the NEO
>>>issue:

>>>http://www.spaceguarduk.com/

>>Yes Nick, I believe these new 'doomsday' stories got a beat down
>>months ago. Glad you're vigilant enough to make sure the public
>>isn't caught in a sticky wicket over this.

>>As for asteroids and meteors hitting Earth, what really scares
>>me the most is:

>>What happens when a monster sized asteroid hits the Moon? I mean
>>a whopper of an asteroid? We're all set to protect mother Earth
>>but 'baby' Moon is out there all alone. If a planet killer hit
>>it, the shrapnel could turn the surface of the Earth into
>>something that looks like a teenager with a chronic case of
>>acne.

>Not to mention the effect such an event may have on global
>weather. If the moon was destroyed, or its orbit altered, even a
>little, the effect on tidal patterns could have unpredictable
>long-term effects on our environment.

I think the short-term effects might render the long-term
effects irrelevant, from the human perspective. If only we'd
followed the Brits' lead, and completed Moonbase Alpha back in
'99.

Seriously though, I question the accuracy of the
statement,"We're all set to protect Mother Earth...".

Since the moon is such a small target compared to our big blue
marble, it would make sense to build "escape vehicles" there.
Hundreds or thousands of them. In case of an imminent impact on
earth, we'd all be shuttled to the moon, and our waiting escape
pods. Launch from the moon would be far less problematic, less
stressful on the passengers, and would require much less fuel.
More realistically, I imagine the phrase "We'd all be
shuttled..." might be a bit over-optimistic.


Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 8

                          Secrecy News -- 07-07-04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:54:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:00:52 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07-07-04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 62
July 7, 2004


**      ARMY STUDY OF IRAQ WAR SUPPRESSED, RELEASED ON WEB
**      LAWSUIT OF FBI WHISTLEBLOWER SIBEL EDMONDS DISMISSED
**      NEW FOIA EXEMPTION FOR UNCLASSIFIED SATELLITE IMAGERY
**      RECENT FOIA RULINGS
**      REPORT ON INDUSTRIAL ESPIONAGE 2003
**      THE GAME OF GO AND THE CHINESE WAY OF WAR


ARMY STUDY OF IRAQ WAR SUPPRESSED, RELEASED ON WEB

Despite extraordinary steps by the Army to limit online public
access to a new report on the Iraq war, the study has
nevertheless been published without the Army's cooperation.

The Army recently completed a book-length study of Operation
Iraqi Freedom entitled "On Point." It is a revealing and fairly
critical account of lessons learned from the war.

Last month, the Center for Army Lessons Learned posted the study
here:

http://onpoint.leavenworth.army.mil/

Incredibly, however, the web version of the Army document is
coded in such a way that it cannot be downloaded, or copied, or
printed out. It must be read online at the Army site, or not at
all.

This may be unprecedented for a government web site. The very
notion of a document that cannot be downloaded is antithetical
to the web and seems like an artifact from an alternate
universe. If the Axis powers had won World War II, the whole
internet might look like this.

But in a marvelous feat of textual engineering, the intrepid
Francois Boo of GlobalSecurity.org managed to overcome the
Army's restrictive coding of the document and to make it
publicly available.

It can now be found -- and downloaded or printed -- here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2004/onpoint/

Among the highlights of the report is the disclosure that the
toppling of the statue of Saddam Hussein in Baghdad was not a
spontaneous act of an Iraqi crowd, but was instigated by a U.S.
Marine colonel backed by a psychological operations unit
(reported in the LA Times July 3).


LAWSUIT OF FBI WHISTLEBLOWER SIBEL EDMONDS DISMISSED

The judicial process was trumped by the "state secrets
privilege" as a whistleblower lawsuit brought by former FBI
linguist Sibel Edmonds alleging misconduct at the FBI was
dismissed yesterday by a federal court on the unusual grounds
that it could not be litigated without compromising sensitive
classified information.

"Because the Court finds that the plaintiff is unable to
establish her First Amendment, Fifth Amendment and Privacy Act
claims without the disclosure of privileged information, nor
would the defendants be able to defend against these claims
without the same disclosures, the plaintiff's case must be
dismissed, albeit with great consternation, in the interests of
national security," wrote Judge Reggie B. Walton.

The Court acknowledged that "dismissal of a suit, and the
consequent denial of a forum without giving the plaintiff her
day in court ... is indeed draconian."

"Denial of the forum provided under the Constitution for the
resolution of disputes...is a drastic remedy that has rarely
been invoked," the Judge wrote, quoting from prior case law.

Still, "Mindful of the need for virtual unfettered access to the
judicial process in a governmental system integrally linked to
the rule of law, the Court nonetheless concludes that the
government has properly invoked the state secrets privilege" in
this case and that the case must be dismissed.

Among other interesting features, the Court's ruling includes a
summary history of the origins of the "state secrets privilege,"
dating back to the treason trial of Aaron Burr in 1807.

Explaining why he dismissed the case rather than staying it
temporarily, Judge Walton opined that "the imminent threat of
terrorism will not be eliminated anytime in the foreseeable
future, but is an endeavor that will consume our nation's
attention indefinitely."

A copy of the July 6 ruling dismissing the case Sibel Edmonds v.
U.S. Department of Justice is available here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/jud/edmonds070604.pdf

Ms. Edmonds's attorney, Mark S. Zaid, said the decision would be
appealed.


NEW FOIA EXEMPTION FOR UNCLASSIFIED SATELLITE IMAGERY

A provision in the Senate version of the 2005 defense
authorization act would create a new exemption from the Freedom
of Information Act for unclassified satellite imagery that is
acquired by the government from commercial vendors on an
exclusive basis.

"The United States often enters into exclusive licensing
agreements with commercial satellite operators that prohibit
these companies from selling certain unclassified data and
imagery, except to the United States and to approved customers,"
according to Senate report language on the measure.

"Compelled release of such data and imagery by the United States
under FOIA defeats the purpose of these licensing agreements,
removes any profit motive, and may damage the national security
by mandating disclosure to the general public upon request.
While the data and imagery could be protected from disclosure
under FOIA by classifying them, the United States prefers to
keep them unclassified."

For several months during the war in Afghanistan, the National
Imagery and Mapping Agency acquired exclusive rights to high-
resolution commercial satellite imagery of the country,
effectively censoring it.

The new provision in the Senate bill, which awaits a House-
Senate conference, would institutionalize this practice.

See the text of the provision and the accompanying report
language here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/s2400-imagery.html


RECENT FOIA RULINGS

The Justice Department's Office of Information and Privacy has
published an updated, annotated list of judicial rulings in
Freedom of Information Act cases. Not all of them are
unfavorable to the requester.

See "New FOIA Decisions, April-June 2004":

http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/foiapost/2004foiapost19.htm


REPORT ON INDUSTRIAL ESPIONAGE 2003

A decade ago, industrial espionage was often cited as one of the
paramount threats to national security. Today it is barely
noted, if at all. But the underlying problem is still a
concern, says a recent annual report from the National
Counterintelligence Executive (NCIX).

"Foreign businessmen, scientists, academics, and government
officials from more than 90 countries continued targeting
sensitive US technologies and corporate trade secrets in both
2002 and 2003, according to a variety of reporting available to
the US Counterintelligence (CI) Community," according to the
report.

See "Annual Report to Congress on Foreign Economic Collection
and Industrial Espionage--2003," NCIX, February 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/docs/2003.pdf


THE GAME OF GO AND THE CHINESE WAY OF WAR

A close study of the Chinese board game "go" can provide
insights into the distinctive Chinese conception of warfighting,
according to a new study published by the Army War College.

Go is the oldest board game in the world. With its emphasis on
fluidity and long-term strategy, author David Lai says, it
differs from chess (absolute conquest), poker (bluffing and
risk-taking), boxing (force on force) and football.

Go players compete, using black and white stones on multiple
fronts, to encircle territory on the board, penetrating the
other's territory in a dynamic contest that embodies principles
articulated by Sun Tzu in his "Art of War."

"A little knowledge and experience of the game of go will be a
valuable addition to the American political and military wisdom;
and it will take U.S. political and military leaders a long way
in understanding the Chinese way of war and diplomacy."

See "Learning From the Stones: A Go Approach to Mastering
China's Strategic Concept, Shi," by David Lai, U.S. Army War
College, May 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/eprint/lai.pdf

_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 8

                 Chilean Peasant Attacked By Unknown Animals

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:49:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:04:24 -0400
Subject: Chilean Peasant Attacked By Unknown Animals



INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
July 7, 2004


Source: El Centro
Date: July 6, 2004

Chile: Peasant Attack Was Caused By Unknown Animals

SML delivered a report; citizen of Parral claims he was
assaulted by two beasts looking like winged dogs


PARRAL (Esteban Leal).- Fear and incredulity will increase even
more in Parral when this news becomes known. Specialists of the
Legal Medical Service (SML) concluded yesterday that what
attacked peasant Juan Roberto Acuna Pereira on Sunday morning
was an animal, but belonging to an unknown species. The resident
claimshaving been attacked that fateful night by two beings
resembling dogs, but winged and with demonic strength. This was
the incredible result reached by the analyses performed by
forensic doctors of Cauquenes upon the wounds suffered by the
Parral resident on his arms, chest and legs, and which were the
subject of local and national media headlines yesterday,
including EL CENTRO newspaper.

The oral report was received last night by the district attorney
in charge of the case, Ricardo Encina. The official reported
that "the injuries inflicted upon the Parral resident are
compatible with those caused by an animal, without specifying
what type. We are trying to deterime if there is involvement by
some person, but if animals are involved we cannot continue our
research, since that would fall to other specialists," admitting
that he is faced with a very complex case.

Encina looked into the case afer Acuna reached the Reina Luisa
Carabineros (state police) station in a state of terror on
Sunday, reporting that two "winged dogs" -- one large, one small
-- had attacked him on his way home. SUch was their strength
that the shocked peasant had to jump into a nearby canal (Canal
Fiscal) to escape from his attackers.

The description of the unknown animals coincides with the one
delivered Friday by a resident of the town of Buenos Aires, who
claims having seen two flying creatures taking off when he went
out to investigate why his dog was howling disconsolately,
coming across dozens of chickens torn to shreds.

Encina acknowledged that the tests did not included the risk of
possible infections, for which reason the victim's biological
processes will have to be monitored, adding that only a doctor
will be able to ascertain the peasant's condition.

DIARIO EL CENTRO visited the man's home last night in an effort
to find out his reaction to the doctor's report, but Acuna
refused, saying he was tired of so many visits by the media and
interviews. He added that some journalists urged him to fly to
Santiago de Chile for tests, and he refused. In spite of this,
he said that the experts suggested to him the possibility that
the attack had been perpetrated by a mountain lion, which he
flatly rejected, insisting in the "winged dog" story.

The sense of mystery and fear has increased among Parral's
citizenry and puts to rest the series of jokes that circulatd on
Sunday and yesterday, when the fantastic events became widely
known.

A cab passenger says that he reached the local train station at
9 o'clock at night. He hailed a cab to go home and remarked to
his driver that the streets were desolate. The cabbie replied
that people were scared of having "The Chupacabras" appear
before them, alluding to the mythical creature usually blamed
for animal deaths and exsanguinations.

There were those who associated this attack with the nervousness
seen in recent nights among dogs, hens and geese in Parral.

A homeowner said that she felt a commotion in her henhouse and
found it odd, since at that time of night the hens were asleep.
Scared, she took a flashlight to see what was going on. She
thought to talk to a neighbor, but thought twice about it
because she was afraid of being laughed out. The Parral resident
claims having heard "the chupacabras" flying off.

Another resident added that yesterday morning the geese were
also restless. The fact occured near Canal Fiscal, where Acuna
was attacked on Saturday night. He pointed out that he heard two
shots fired, which he attributed to someone trying to scare off
the alleged animal. The subject couldn't even be obviated in the
courts. Court Attorney Roman Lazagy joked with D.A. Ricardo
Encina, saying: "If you're in charge of this investigation, I
don't give you more than 7 days to apprehend the Chupacabras",
causing peals of laughter in the courtoom.

=====

Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Liliana Nunez O.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 8

                       UFO Sightings '03 Video Report

From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 15:16:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:07:37 -0400
Subject: UFO Sightings '03 Video Report


A 5-minute video summary of UFO sightings and other interesting
activity from the midwestern U.S. last year is freely available
online in a .wmv format (will open with Windows Media Player
version 9).

The video was shown on the October, 2003 edition of "UFO Update:
LIVE!" produced by Bob Leibold of Natural Light Productions
(this 10/03 program has received 4 Blue Chip Cable Access Awards
last month) and this 5-miute segment is produced by Kenny Young,
narrated by John Stephenson and features investigator Donnie
Blessing and other actors for dramatic re-enactments.

Special thanks to Sean Feeney for uploading and hosting the
video.

For low bandwidth/dial-up computers, click on:

http://www.ufounderground.net/submitted/kenny/ufoupdate/UFO_UPDATE_encounters03_
56k.wmv

For high bandwidth/Cable/DSL users, click on:

http://www.ufounderground.net/submitted/kenny/ufoupdate/UFO_UPDATE_encounters03_
DSL.wmv








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 8

                           Re: Toutatis - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:19:47 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:11:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Toutatis - Balaskas


>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:49:59 +0100
>Subject: Toutatis

<snip>

>I've recently been asked by several people whether I've heard
>about a potential 'doomsday asteroid' due to collide with the
>Earth on September 29, 2004.

>There's quite a lot of material on this circulating on the
>internet, including for example:

>http://www.rense.com/general54/whyIfear.htm

>The facts are somewhat different. On the date in question, the
>asteroid Toutatis makes its closest approach to Earth for some
>time. But this 'close approach' is a distance of nearly one
>million miles, which means it will be approximately four times
>further away from us than the moon. Here's the page on Toutatis
>from NASA's website:

> http://echo.jpl.nasa.gov/asteroids/4179_Toutatis/toutatis.html

<snip>

Hi Nick!

Commenting only on subjects I have much knowledge or formal
training in, including astronomy, I have found that the
webmaster for Jeff Rense's site is too quick to post everything
he thinks is important or urgent without first verifying the
information. To me, this is very irresponsible, especially for
an excellent alternative news/commentary web site which many
people, including myself, frequently check and trust.

Toutatis is a large Earth-orbit crossing asteroid which makes a
close approach to Earth once every four years as it revolves
around the Sun. Its closest approach to Earth on September 29
should not be a reason for concern since all new astrometric
observations of Toutatis and independent calculations by others
confirms that Toutatis will not impact the Earth and should not
even be labelled as a "near miss".

That said, to the surprise of astronomers, recently published
close-up images of Comet Wild 2 taken by the Stardust spacecraft
have revealed a nucleus that more closely resembles the shape
and structure of a typical large asteroid like Toutatis, craters
and all, than their so-called "dirty snowball" model for comets.

If the crater-like depressions on comets and asteroids were
created by eruptions of the same volatile materials present in
both, then another such eruption on Toutatis as it moves in
closer to the Sun may deflect the asteroid enough from its
present trajectory to make it a real threat to Earth.

Since most people, including myself, do not blindly trust those
in authority and cannot independently check all things for
themselves, one simple way to determine if Toutatis is, or has
become, a threat to Earth is to closely monitor the travel plans
of the top 50 or so world leaders and experts on asteroids
(including Nick Pope?) and their families. If they are all
gathered on the mountains in the same hemisphere on September
29, this would be, I think, a much better indicator of the
threat posed by Toutatis than someone's opinions on rense.com.


Nick Balaskas








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 8

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:36:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:12:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:56:44 -0400
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:46:44 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>I think there's a wider point to be made about this. I've worked
>>with a lot of abductees, both when I ran the British
>>Government's UFO project, and after that tour of duty, in a
>>private capacity.

>In saying the above, do you mean that in an official capacity
>with the British government, you worked (officially), "...with a
>lot of abductees...", or do you only mean that while you were
>working with the government you worked with a lot of abductees
>in a private capacity, as well as afterward?

>If you worked with abductees officially, can you tell us how
>that work was conducted, its methodology, and the results or
>official conclusions, if any?

>If the work with abductees was official, then it suggests a bit
>more openness to such things by the British government, in
>contrast with, e.g., that of the government of the U.S.A.

Ray,

There was no formal remit for the MOD to look into claims of
alien abduction. However, because it was known that we
investigated UFO sightings, we inevitably received reports of
other strange phenomena, including abductions. Although my job
description made no mention of abductions, any approaches on the
subject that I received and dealt with at work can only be
regarded as part of my official duties, as opposed to work
undertaken in a private capacity.

Notwithstanding the above, I should make it clear that most of
the abductees with whom I've worked contacted me after my tour
of duty on the British Government's UFO project. From memory, no
more than half a dozen abductees contacted me while I was on the
'UFO Desk'.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 8

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 19:53:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:15:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:31:22 EDT
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:41:15 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>I recall an interview with famed abductee specialist Budd
>>>Hopkins that we conducted with him during the 50th Anniversary
>>>of the Roswell Incident in Roswell at the military school. Budd
>>>discussed at length his experiences etc. with abductees which is
>>>on video as well for us at Parascope Magazine.

>>>What startled me was his mentioning of a good portion of
>>>abductees who were fully conscious during their abduction. Did
>>>this psychology study include these abductees as well?

>>There is a lot of data out there on this question, but most
>>people are unaware of it. My own involvement in study of
>>abduction cases was done without any use of hypnosis whatsoever,
>>and I found exactly the same kind of details reported by
>>Hopkins, Jacobs, et al. I can't give a precise number or
>>percentage, but can say with confidence that there are lots of
>>conscious recall cases. They are not always total recall at
>>first, as others have said, but memories tend to flood back
>>after a while.

>Thank you ever so much Dick Hall!

>Your post is the most world shattering I've read to date.

>This data from conscious abductees is the linchpin to this
>entire phenomena.

I seem to recall that, as long as 20 years ago, Budd was saying
that roughly 1/4 of abductees recall all or most of the
experience consciously. At any rate, the rather large percentage
of "conscious recallers" has been known for a long time.... and
ignored by the skeptics for an equally long time.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 8

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:33:50 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:21:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:46:44 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <nids.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:33:52 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

<snip>

>>My hunch is that the data in this paper will surprise many
>>Psychological Science readers in the  psychology research
>>community, since it greatly undermines their common perception
>>that abductees are merely attention seekers, charlatans etc who
>>want nothing more than to get their 15 minutes of fame. The data
>>in Dr McNally's paper are saying that the responses of PTSD
>>victims and abductees are almost indistinguishable and will
>>therefore demolish some commonly-held stereotypes. I believe
>>that Dr MacNally's paper may stimulate members of the
>>psychological research community to take the next research step:
>>to use the tools of fMRI and other brain-imaging techniques to
>>take these (to their readers, very surprising) data to the next
>>level. That is precisely what is needed in this field.

>>As such, I believe Dr McNally's paper is a positive contribution.

>I strongly agree with Colm's comments on this and think McNally
>et al. have been unfairly criticised over their paper. Their
>methodology has presumably passed muster in order to have been
>published in Psychological Science, and they seem to have simply
>gone where their data took them.

>I think there's a wider point to be made about this. I've worked
>with a lot of abductees, both when I ran the British
>Government's UFO project, and after that tour of duty, in a
>private capacity. Abductees and ufologists often told me that
>they resented the way the abduction phenomenon was ignored by
>the Establishment.

<snip>

I urge you to point at anything I write here that is contrary to
the content of the McNally paper.

Take note that the abduction phenomenon is used as a spring
board to put forth the idea that PTSD symptoms _do not_
necessarily imply the reality of the experience: as far as
McNally & al. are concerned, the abduction experience, because
it is not real, is the proof that PTSD symptoms can be the
result of _fantasy_.

This is odd: they are not trying to understand the adbuction
experience. They have simply decided that it cannot be true.

The funniest part is that _everything_ that is written in this
paper is backed by scientific references... except their
postulate which is, ironically, the fundation of their work.

Science? Hardly.

>My point is that if scientists are
>collectively criticised for failing to look properly at
>abductions, it's unfortunate that those few who do are shot down
>in flames when their honestly reported data don't correlate the
>preconceived ideas of those whose minds are already made up.

The ones who should be shot down are the ones with bias,
preconceived ideas and whose minds are already made up?

I'm a 100% with you. Then, why glorify them and condemn the
whistleblowers?

We seem to have lost some basic facts regarding the scientific
establishment.

>Their
>methodology has presumably passed muster in order to have been
>published in Psychological Science.

This piece of bias has just entered the great scientific
litterature circus and, while there was not a prior scientific
reference invalidating the reality of the abduction experience,
now we have one! Expect in the near future quotes like this:

"The abduction fantasy (McNaly & al. 2003)..."

Don't expect:

"McNally & all (2003) wrongfully postulated the irreality of the
abduction experience in support of a new approach to PTSD
syndromes."


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D
=3D Faites par les Qu=E9becois pour les Quebecois       =3D
=3D     et amies.                                     =3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D
=3D Made in Quebec for Quebecers and friends          =3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 8

                    Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 06:31:58 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:23:47 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Sparks


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:11:31 -0500
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:08:57 EDT
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 03:14:08 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

<snip>

>>>I am a scientist. That is, I see the world as a collection of
>>>phenomena and I attempt to classify, quantify, understand them.
>>>I require evidence in order to form hypotheses, thus I perform
>>>experiments which either support or fail to support that
>>>hypothesis. If a hypothesis exists for which experimentation is
>>>not possible, i.e., the technology needed to adequately perform
>>>the experiment doesn't yet exist, I don't blame science, and I
>>>don't think less of those that require no experimentation. I
>>>simply cannot discuss the hypothesis scientifically.

>>Your working definition of "science" is still a little bit too
>>narrow and restricted. It's this kind of issue about having to
>>lab test something for it to be "science" that drives people up
>>the wall when that (lab testing) obviously does not work for a
>>lot of perfectly valid scientific subjects that cannot be taken
>>into a lab (earth's core, sun's interior, Saturn's rings,
>>neutron stars). And of course the lab test requirement does not
>>work for UFOs which cannot be controlled and brought into a lab
>>to test to prove they exist before scientists will study them.
>>It is unfair to require that UFO's be brought into a lab for
>>testing before it can even be considered proper for a scientific
>>study - I am not saying you are saying that I am only pointing
>>out that your definition leads to that.

>>But I am not aware of when it was ever declared an official rule
>>of scientific methodology that a subject must be capable of lab
>>experimentation. This tends to be what laboratory scientists say
>>- because that is what they do. Non-laboratory scientists of
>>course don't have such a narrow view of the scientific method.

<snip>

>Thanks, Brad. I see again that terminology is a hindrance. You
>mis-interpreted the meaning of experimentation. Scientific
>experiments are carried on all over the world without the need
>or benefit of a lab setting. In fact, when it comes to aerial
>phenomena, the best science is often carried out... out!
>Observation, classification, etc, all require leaving the "lab".

I almost missed this posting and was going to agree with you.
But I thought it was better that I respond because of important
issues you raise. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to try to
clarify a bit more.

While it's true that experiments are carried out in the field,
not just the lab, the point I was trying to make was that
experimentation is important but not the essence of the
scientific method -- which is reality checking, whether it is by
controlled lab or field experiment, probes of distant phenomena
(seismic studies of earth's interior or actual space probes to
the planets, for example), prediction of events based on
physical phenomena, retropredictions of what will be found in
examining the past, theory building, logic checks, or hypothesis
testing. The scientific method is not limited to material
physical phenomena, as much as the materialists would like
everyone to believe.

>It is however impossible for today's science to prove one way or
>another that UFOs come from another dimension for example,
>because we don't have a methodology, or a protocol, or a machine
>that allows us to answer those questions... yet. We have no way
>to test a hypothesis which requires a technology we don't
>possess. I truly believe that the ultimate Science of Everything
>will encompass both Euclidian _and_ Merlinian aspects.
>Scientists tend to leave off when spirituality enters the
>picture. I think this is as it should be... _but_, the yin and
>yang, the duality of science and supernatural will naturally re-
>converge. This List is evidence that the process is underway.....

Well again I was about to agree with you but, cannot. One of the
main stumbling blocks to progress in developing theories on
UFO's is that every time someone tries to fully develop a theory
that does not assert a magic-like "Merlinian" science by
"aliens" they get shouted down. This is a fundamental violation
of Occam's Razor which requires that the simpler, less
sophisticated theories must be eliminated first before resorting
to theories approaching the magical. The same kind of rule
applies in screening and investigating UFO cases and claims,
according to the principles Hynek laid down, the IFO's, hoaxes
and other conventional explanations must be eliminated first
before declaring a case an unexplained UFO (or UFO conspiracy,
etc.). This rule is constantly violated on this list and in
UFOlogy generally.

Hopefully this will be helpful clarification on an important
issue, and again I appreciate your thought-provoking remarks
which helped to stimulate these thoughts.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 8

              John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO Connection

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:56:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:56:53 -0400
Subject: John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO Connection




Source: Rense.Com

http://www.rense.com/general54/kerryfo.htm

07-06-04

John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO Connection
by
Robert Barrow

Having spent several decades writing - futile - letters urging
U.S. Presidents and Presidential Candidates to support a
reputable UFO research project, here's a likely worthless bit of
information for those who wish to follow in my footsteps to the
edge of nowhere. Who knows, your letter might be the one that
influences political minds that care about real science.

If you plan to write Senator John Kerry at his Washington office
about UFOs, do be sure to mention that the building in which his
third floor office is located.

The Russell Senate Office Building, is named after the late
Senator Richard Russell, whose UFO experience is legendary.

Russell (D-GA), as noted famously in reputable books and web
sites about UFOs, was the powerful chairman of the U.S. Armed
Services Committee who saw two UFOs during a visit to Russia in
1955.

See a detailed report here:

http://www.rense.com/general42/tm_oct.htm

in This Month In UFO History, October 14, 1955 - US Senators See
Flying Saucers In Soviet Russia.

Apparently, Russell was subsequently advised by U.S. government
officials not to discuss his sighting and he reluctantly
admitted as much.

The Fund for UFO Research and Dr. Bruce Maccabee are credited,
fortunately, with gaining release of important documents
relating to this incident under the Freedom of Information Act,
but it was former Los Angeles aviation writer and newspaper
columnist Tom Towers who dramatically exposed the incident
publicly in the fifties simply by quoting Russell's statements,
in a letter to Towers, stating that he had been advised not to
discuss the matter.

Towers, Rense readers may recall, played the role of Albert Chop
in the 1956 United Artists documentary motion picture, "U.F.O."

For those intent upon pleading with John Kerry for The Truth
About UFOs in the event that he wins the election, there's the
ice-breaker for your letters to

304 Russell Building,
Washington, D.C.
20510
USA

and pointing out the relationship between UFOs and the respected
Senator after whom the building is named couldn't be a better
place to start.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 8

                       Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Mathieu

From: Mathieu - Paris <mfilms1.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:39:46 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 09:17:42 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Mathieu


[Non-Subscriber Post]

>http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=139&art_id=vn20040701110118306
C214932

>07-01-04

>UFO Over Durban Captured On Video

>By Ayanda Mhlongo

Dear UFO UpDates Listers,

Did anyone take a few minutes to check with any software if
Venus could be in the sky of Phoenix - Durban, South Africa, at
4 AM (local time) the 27th of June?

When I tried to see by myself, I was surprised. Venus was not
above the horizon. Thinking I could be wrong, because I am not
an astronomer nor university professor, I sent a mail
to the South African Astronomical Observatory, yesterday:

-----

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:53:52 +0200 (CEST)
From: MCo
To: enquiries at saao.ac.za
Subject: About Phoenix "Venus" video

Hello from France,

I have read an article about a woman in Phoenix near Durban who
have filmed a light during the night, June the 27th at 4 AM. In
a second article a university professor said it could have been
Venus.

Looking at the only picture of the video, I was thinking that it
looks like Venus or another "big light". But when I have tried
to check in my skymap software I did not find Venus in the sky
for this time and date.

I must have made a mistake, but it would be really kind if you
could help me by telling me if I have to add 2 hours to UTC or
not. Because I live in France, I am not totaly sure of your
local time ; but when I search for that information this is what
I get : UTC+2

Best regards,

Mathieu - Paris

PS: Sorry about my bad English!

-----

An answer came quickly!

-----

Date:Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:33:29 +0200 (SAST)
De: "Dave Laney"
Objet: Re: About Phoenix "Venus" video

Greetings from the bottom of Africa

South African Standard Time is UTC+2, and Venus would not have
been above the horizon in Durban at 4 a.m. local time on June
27.

Dave Laney
SAAO

-----

I would like to know for how much time this woman watched TV
before noticing the light outside. Perhaps it was far later than
4 o'clock? I would also be very happy to be able to watch the
video!


http://www.calle.com/world/SF/4/Phoenix.html

Latitude -26.0667 Longitude 29.2000 Altitude (feet) 5072
Lat (DMS) 26deg 4' 0S Long (DMS) 29deg 11' 60E Altitude (meters) 1545
Time zone (est) UTC+2

At 04 AM local time, Venus:
Dec : +18deg 13' 39"
Ha : -11deg 23' 52"
Az : 255deg 06' 55"
Mag : -4.33

A.D. : 04h 34mn


Thanks for reading,

Bonne journee,

Mathieu








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 8

                      Creatures With No Business Here!

From: Geoffrey Richardson <geoff.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:17:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 09:20:45 -0400
Subject: Creatures With No Business Here!


Ed Gerhman is convinced of the authenticity of the "Alien
Autopsy" film. So much so that, despite the mass of opposition
to his views, he conducted a thorough investigation into the
validity of the Cameraman's Statement.

Regardless of your opinions of the Santilli Alien Autopsy Film,
you will find Ed Gerhman's article a fascinating account of his
research and investigations into this controversial subject.

Read "Creatures With No Business Here" at:

"The (authentic) WHY? Files"

http://www.thewhyfiles.net


Geoff Richardson
The WHY? Files
Established 1999








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 8

                Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:23:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 09:30:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Kaeser


>From: Geoffrey Richardson <geoff.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:17:15 +0100
>Subject: Creatures With No Business Here!

>Ed Gerhman is convinced of the authenticity of the "Alien
>Autopsy" film. So much so that, despite the mass of opposition
>to his views, he conducted a thorough investigation into the
>validity of the Cameraman's Statement.

>Regardless of your opinions of the Santilli Alien Autopsy Film,
>you will find Ed Gerhman's article a fascinating account of his
>research and investigations into this controversial subject.

>Read "Creatures With No Business Here" at:

>"The (authentic) WHY? Files"

>http://www.thewhyfiles.net



Geoffrey,

After about 45 seconds of looking, I didn't see a quick link to
the article you mention.You might want to highlight that for
those of us who don't have time to search.

While I am one of those who was active in the AA investigation
early on, my concern with Ed's conclusions is that he bases his
later theories and conclusions on statements and drawings that
are of little actual value (unless you want to believe in them).

Of course, that's a problem for the entire field.


Steve








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

                Cerro Chilean Astrophotographer Topples Myths

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:27:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:18:19 -0400
Subject: Cerro Chilean Astrophotographer Topples Myths


Source: Las Ultimas Noticias
Date: 07/08/09

Arturo Gomez: "UFOs And Aliens Are Chicanery With A Considerable
Commercial Interest"

Fabian Llanca
Wednesday  7 July 2004


"There is much ignorance about natural phenomena. But there are
people who do know and say nothing because it goes against their
group," Gomez argues.

Specialist states that the Parque Forestal alien was a strategy
to promote a UFO conference. Expert confirms Martians do not
exist.

"Ufologists don't consult me anymore because they know that all
phenomena have an explanation. They got bored with me," remarks
Arturo Gomez, an astrophotographer with the Cerro Tololo
observatory, regarding his relationship to UFO research groups.

His scientific soul - with 35 years' experience under his belt -
 keeps him from believeing in alien life and accuses alien fans
of financial conniving. "In the case involving the photo of the
Parke Forestal critter, for example, they were promoting a trip
to Caj=F3n del Maipo to see UFOs," he discloses.

Gomez assumes that Erick Martinez of the CIFA "put forth the
half-camouflaged idea that it was an ET, an alien, a strange
head, macrocephalous and a host of words he employs."

Are UFO and alien sightings pure chicanery?

Of course, chicanery with very strong commercial interests.
There are many things taking place in Chile that aren't
objective. Of course, there are all kinds of people.

Are you in contact with ufologists?

More then than now. The person who spearheaded the Parque
Forestal critter incident was in my home to show me a film of
some tourists traveling to the north. I told him: "I'm going to
put this video on in front of us on the TV screen and I assure
you that in two seconds I'll know what it is and I'll explain it
to you." I put the video on, saw it, then turned off the TV set.

But what was it?

The small contrail of a jet heading northward. The airliner's
fuselage can't be seen because it's far away. A short contrail
is visible. It's reddish because it occurred at sunset, just
like the clouds acquire that tone during sunset. He was
unconvinced.

How did he react?

He said no, of course. He even showed me some drawings of a
flying saucer entering the atmosphere in a special way and
producing a series of angular views. He has an active
imagination. It's just that we see this everyday with commercial
flights from the observatory, during sunset.

So, was the Punta Arenas sighting a fraud?

All of these things have a simple answer. What people
undoubtedly saw was Venus' slow upward movment over five days,
which is the product of Earth's rotation. Just like we see the
sun emerging from the Cordillera.

Deception or ignorance?

Many people are ignorant about natural phenomena, but there are
those who do know, and say nothing because it goes against their
group. It's a deception. They know what it is, but they make
believe they don't and [put forth the story] just like that.

In any event, ufologists have been officially acknowledged.

The mayor of La Serena, by a decree from our government,
determined that her city should be the capital of Chilean
Ufology. This would be like having NASA owning a store selling
Omar Garate's eleven magical powers bracelet in the United
States. I insist that this is a problem of education and
knowledge.

Is there no room for doubt?

In my 35 years working at Tololo, all phenomena-even the
wildest you can imagine-have had an explanation. When we have
objective proof of somethin new and vital we will be the first
to make it known and make the corresponding follow-up.


Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Christian Quintero, Planeta UFO









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

              Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Richardson

From: Geoffrey Richardson <geoff.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:50:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:21:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Richardson


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:23:57 -0400
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Geoffrey Richardson <geoff.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:17:15 +0100
>>Subject: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>Read "Creatures With No Business Here" at:

>>"The (authentic) WHY? Files"

>>http://www.thewhyfiles.net

>After about 45 seconds of looking, I didn't see a quick link to
>the article you mention.You might want to highlight that for
>those of us who don't have time to search.

Sorry about this but if you run down the file list the "topic"
will highlight itself.


Geoff








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

               Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:12:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:22:41 -0400
Subject: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday


Source: KTRE Channel 9.nul

http://www.ktre.com/Global/story.asp?S11752&nav=2FH5OZC9

07/07/04 - East Texas

Reports of Object "Falling from the Sky" Wednesday Night

The East Texas News received numerous phone calls Wednesday
night from viewers who reported seeing something "falling from
the sky." Local law enforcement agencies also received calls from
citizens claiming to have seen something out of the ordinary in
the night sky.

KTRE Chief Meteorologist Lee Ringer says these sights were not
the result of a weather event but were more than likely a meteor
passing through the earth's atmosphere. Officials with the North
American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) report to the Federal
Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) that a heightened period of
meteor showers was expected to begin Wednesday night and
continue through the month.

The National Weather Service says similar reports of objects
"falling from the sky" were received from Witchita Falls, Texas
to Little Rock, Arkansas.











   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

                     Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:13:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:25:58 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - King


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 06:31:58 EDT
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

><snip>

>I almost missed this post and was going to agree with you.
>But I thought it was better that I respond because of important
>issues you raise. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to try to
>clarify a bit more.

>While it's true that experiments are carried out in the field,
>not just the lab, the point I was trying to make was that
>experimentation is important but not the essence of the
>scientific method -- which is reality checking, whether it is by
>controlled lab or field experiment, probes of distant phenomena
>(seismic studies of earth's interior or actual space probes to
>the planets, for example), prediction of events based on
>physical phenomena, retropredictions of what will be found in
>examining the past, theory building, logic checks, or hypothesis
>testing. The scientific method is not limited to material
>physical phenomena, as much as the materialists would like
>everyone to believe.

>>It is however impossible for today's science to prove one way or
>>another that UFOs come from another dimension for example,
>>because we don't have a methodology, or a protocol, or a machine
>>that allows us to answer those questions...  yet. We have no way
>>to test a hypothesis which requires a technology we don't
>>possess. I truly believe that the ultimate Science of Everything
>>will encompass both Euclidian _and_ Merlinian aspects.
>>Scientists tend to leave off when spirituality enters the
>>picture. I think this is as it should be...  _but_, the yin and
>>yang, the duality of science and supernatural will naturally re-
>>converge. This List is evidence that the process is underway... ..

>Well again I was about to agree with you but, cannot. One of the
>main stumbling blocks to progress in developing theories on
>UFO's is that every time someone tries to fully develop a theory
>that does not assert a magic-like "Merlinian" science by
>"aliens" they get shouted down. This is a fundamental violation
>of Occam's Razor which requires that the simpler, less
>sophisticated theories must be eliminated first before resorting
>to theories approaching the magical. The same kind of rule
>applies in screening and investigating UFO cases and claims,
>according to the principles Hynek laid down, the IFO's, hoaxes
>and other conventional explanations must be eliminated first
>before declaring a case an unexplained UFO (or UFO conspiracy,
>etc.). This rule is constantly violated on this list and in
>Ufology generally.

>Hopefully this will be helpful clarification on an important
>issue, and again I appreciate your thought-provoking remarks
>which helped to stimulate these thoughts.

Brad, I think we agree more than we disagree.

My intellectual side tells me that there is a rational, 3D,
logical, common-sense answer to every UFO sighting ever
experienced.

My realistic side tells me that there are mysteries yet
unraveled. I remind myself that the best and brightest minds in
the world once believed... nay, knew... that the earth was flat,
that man could not fly, that the heavens revolved around the
earth, etc.

Yesterday's magic is often today's mundanity.

But in the UFO investigation field, one is regularly shown
video... a Mylar balloon for example... buffeted by winds and
gleaming intermittently in the sunlight... accompanied by
breathless text indicating how the "obvious shape-changing
exhibited by the object" clearly rules out a terrestrial object,
or something similar. I tend to see the Mylar balloon, applying
the principle of Occam's Razor. Of course, I can easily release
a helium-filled Mylar balloon and shoot a video of the flight,
and compare it to the alleged UFO video. If they are eerily
similar I have proven nothing, since many will claim that those
clever aliens have simply found a perfect "cover" for their
clandestine visits. And as much as I want to adhere to the
Occam's Razor test, I find it very difficult to dismiss the less
simple explanation out of hand. Were I an alien, I might very
well use common aerial phenomena to disguise my presence if my
presence was something I wanted to hide.

In a nutshell, this is the reason I sought out... and post to...
this List. I am struggling intellectually with my own desire to
believe in something outside our paradigm. My own Mulder-esque
inner demon rarely leaves me satisfied with the simplest
explanation... and yet many of the more "complex" explanations
fail to satisfy my intellectual demands. I feel as if this
struggle reflects the dynamic of this list. I see it
demonstrated daily.

You are right about stimulating thoughts and clarification. This
thread has gone a long way to enhancing my opinion of the list,
and has definitely stimulated my thoughts on the subject.

BTW, my earlier post noting that "I am a scientist" was a
metaphor, as was the statement that "I'm a religious person".
Neither are true in the practical sense, but neither could be
more true in terms of my bicameral, conflicted world view. In
the end I seek truth, science... and mysticism be damned. My
strongest belief is that the truth lies teasingly betwixt the
two.

My fear is that I might miss that truth, either because I adhere
too strictly to the "rationality" of science, or because I
don't.

Thanks again.

Kyle









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

                        Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:12:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:28:43 -0400
Subject: Re:  UFO "Only Venus" - Boone


>From: Mathieu - Paris <mfilms1.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:39:46 +0200
>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Mathieu


>[Non-Subscriber Post]

>>http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=139&art_id=vn2004070111011830
6C214932

>>07-01-04

>>UFO Over Durban Captured On Video

>>By Ayanda Mhlongo

>Dear UFO UpDates Listers,

>Did anyone take a few minutes to check with any software if
>Venus could be in the sky of Phoenix - Durban, South Africa, at
>4 AM (local time) the 27th of June?

>When I tried to see by myself, I was surprised. Venus was not
>above the horizon. Thinking I could be wrong, because I am not
>an astronomer nor university professor, I sent a mail
>to the South African Astronomical Observatory, yesterday:

<snip>

Merci Mathieu!

It appears you've done the detective work that many have not.

So simple yet so powerful.

We should all of us contact the newspapers that carried the
'Venus' explanation and chastise them for not doing the work a
responsible press should have done as Mathieu has done.

Let's all us Yanks go to S. Africa and beat up the guys who ran
that Venus story :)


Best,

Greg







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

                      Does NASA Publish Inverted Data?

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:34:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:30:45 -0400
Subject: Does NASA Publish Inverted Data?


Extracted enlargement;

http://www.colsweb.com/marsmelt2.gif

from

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2004/07/07/index.html

showing Mars Carbon Dioxide Ice Pole melt.

Has NASA got the number upside down!?

Maybe as the ice melts to a greater depth two more 6's will be
revealed? Letter hight is approx 70 feet ( 23 metres ).


col

http://www.colsweb.com/texjoe.htm
Save money and help Planet Earth.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

               Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:30:45 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:33:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:23:57 -0400
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Geoffrey Richardson <geoff.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:17:15 +0100
>>Subject: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>Regardless of your opinions of the Santilli Alien Autopsy Film,
>>you will find Ed Gerhman's article a fascinating account of his
>>research and investigations into this controversial subject.
>
>>Read "Creatures With No Business Here" at:
>>"The (authentic) WHY? Files"
>>http://www.thewhyfiles.net

>While I am one of those who was active in the AA investigation
>early on, my concern with Ed's conclusions is that he bases his
>later theories and conclusions on statements and drawings that
>are of little actual value (unless you want to believe in them).

>Of course, that's a problem for the entire field.

Steven,

I really don't understand your objections to my research.
 You'll need to be more specific. You know from your own
experience that the cameraman gave a set of directions to the
site. You followed them yourself; and that's what I did. You
must have "believed" that you might find something.

Folks don't go wandering around this stretch of desert on a
lark. What would you have done if you had found the site we
discovered, covered with burned vegetation and blue, glass-like
material, just as the cameraman described?

My brother and I are very familiar with the New Mexico terrain.
We also used topographic maps of the general area before we
started our search so we'd be familiar with the drainage
patterns. This gave us a basic idea of where the dry lake was
located.

I did think that Ray and the Cameraman were telling the truth;
there's no way to hoax a dry lake bed covered with blue, glass-
like material. Ray has never visited New Mexico so if he were
inventing the crash site from whole cloth, then he's one hell of
a liar. The same goes for the drawings.

We didn't use the drawings during our initial exploration. I
took them to the site on our second visit and they matched,
almost exactly, the background terrain.

But the main factor that makes this location a prime candidate
as a crash site is the identification of the blue, glass-like
material (also seen in the drawings) as cristobalite. There is
 absolutely no geologic explanation for this fact. Cristobalite
is a trace mineral and not found in this quantity anywhere on
this earth.

After all the pompous parading of the scientific method that
we've seen lately on the list, I'd think you'd appreciate
someone who actually did try to follow its principles.

Ed










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

                          Re: Toutatis - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 17:34:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 11:16:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Toutatis - Dickenson


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:19:47 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Toutatis

>If the crater-like depressions on comets and asteroids were
>created by eruptions of the same volatile materials present in
>both, then another such eruption on Toutatis as it moves in
>closer to the Sun may deflect the asteroid enough from its
>present trajectory to make it a real threat to Earth.

Hello Nick & List,

You're entirely right about unaccounted for dangers of comets or
similar but inter-stellar motile travelers - but our "leaders"
are more intent on self gratification (of one sort or another)
than public protection.

Go back to media reports of 20 years ago and find impact-
predictions being laughed at by politicians, tame `scientists'
and press; then go back ten years and see a little different
attitude; then go back one year and see just a small realization
by ignorant (but dominating) politicos, media hacks & tame
`scientists'.

(try "thump3.txt" in Google + links).

The truth is, the more info we get, the larger the threat we
see; the longer we go _without_ a collision the greater the
likelihood of a bigger, more fatal one.


Cheers

Ray D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:42:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 11:19:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:36:18 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

<snip>

>Ray,

>There was no formal remit for the MOD to look into claims of
>alien abduction. However, because it was known that we
>investigated UFO sightings, we inevitably received reports of
>other strange phenomena, including abductions. Although my job
>description made no mention of abductions, any approaches on the
>subject that I received and dealt with at work can only be
>regarded as part of my official duties, as opposed to work
>undertaken in a private capacity.

>Notwithstanding the above, I should make it clear that most of
>the abductees with whom I've worked contacted me after my tour
>of duty on the British Government's UFO project. From memory, no
>more than half a dozen abductees contacted me while I was on the
>'UFO Desk'.

Thanks, Nick, that clarification is appreciated. I'm not
surprised that few persons would contact a government if feeling
they were abducted by ET aliens.

After all, should someone think himself or herself to have a
truly convincing case, who would want to risk the possibility of
being quarantined in biological isolation for an appreciable
period of time as were the returned lunar astronauts.  :)


Ray Stanford







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

                 Re: John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:58:38 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 11:28:41 -0400
Subject: Re: John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
>Date: 7/8/2004 11:42:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Subj: UFO UpDate: John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO Connection

>Source: Rense.Com

http://www.rense.com/general54/kerryfo.htm

>07-06-04

>John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO Connection
>by Robert Barrow

<snip>

>The Russell Senate Office Building, is named after the late
>Senator Richard Russell, whose UFO experience is legendary.

>Russell (D-GA), as noted famously in reputable books and web
>sites about UFOs, was the powerful chairman of the U.S. Armed
>Services Committee who saw two UFOs during a visit to Russia in
>1955.

>See a detailed report here:

http://www.rense.com/general42/tm_oct.htm

>in This Month In UFO History, October 14, 1955 - US
>Senators See Flying Saucers In Soviet Russia.

>Apparently, Russell was subsequently advised by U.S.
>government officials not to discuss his sighting and he
>reluctantly admitted as much.

If you actually read the CIA documents on the incident it is
apparent that CIA Director Allen Dulles and his staff asked Sen.
Russell not to publicly disclose his sightings of two disc-
shaped objects taking off almost vertically one minute apart
near Baku on Oct. 4, 1955. As it turns out there was an Army
intelligence officer with Russell and a secret CIA Directorate
of Plans (Clandestine Service) Foreign Intelligence (FI) Staff
officer Reuben Efron posing as a "translator" all of whom were
eyewitnesses with Russell (who probably did not know who Efron
really was).

At this time period the CIA was so fearful of post-Stalinist
USSR that it did not yet have a "Moscow Station" within the US
Embassy, so CIA clandestine officers could on;y travel through
the country posing as nondescript visitors. All the more reason
why Allen Dulles did not want Russell drawing more attention to
the incident aside from the bizarre nature of the sightings
themselves and how it might relate to the Cold War (was it all
staged by the Russians? how could they technologically stage
something like that out in the middle of desert nowhere and
actually expect Russell to catch it? etc. etc.)

>The Fund for UFO Research and Dr. Bruce Maccabee are
>credited, fortunately, with gaining release of important documents
>relating to this incident under the Freedom of Information Act,
>but it was former Los Angeles aviation writer and newspaper
>columnist Tom Towers who dramatically exposed the incident
>publicly in the fifties simply by quoting Russell's statements,
>in a letter to Towers, stating that he had been advised not to
>discuss the matter.
<snip>

>For those intent upon pleading with John Kerry for The Truth
>About UFOs.....

<snip>

In the interest of "Truth About UFOs" the Fund and Maccabee had
nothing to do with the release of the CIA documents on the
Russell incident and other matters in Dec 1978, in fact the Fund
did not yet exist.

Joel Carpenter had an outstanding analysis and detailed
description of this incident and all of its ramifications, but
his web site is gone. Try a Google search for the cached copies.
Among other things, sharp-eyed Joel noticed that Francis Gary
Powers' 1960 U-2 flight seemed to be targeted to fly right over
the Russell-CIA sighting location near Baku.


Brad Sparks







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

                 Re: John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:29:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 11:33:34 -0400
Subject: Re: John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
>Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 4:56 AM
>Subject: John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO Connection

<snip>

>If you plan to write Senator John Kerry at his Washington office
>about UFOs, do be sure to mention that the building in which his
>third floor office is located.

>The Russell Senate Office Building, is named after the late
>Senator Richard Russell, whose UFO experience is legendary.

<snip>

EBK,

Richard Russell also employed Col. Corso as his Chief
Investigator when he delved into the Kennedy assassination.

I'll bet they had some interesting UFO discussions.


Ed







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

                          Secrecy News -- 07/08/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:58:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 11:54:35 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/08/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 63
July 8, 2004


**      PHYSICISTS SPEAK UP FOR MORDECHAI VANUNU
**      WHITE HOUSE WARNS AGAINST NEW LIMITS TO PATRIOT ACT
**      ADDENDUM REGARDING THE ARMY'S "ON POINT" STUDY
**      COURT BLOCKS PUBLICATION OF CIA MEMOIR


PHYSICISTS SPEAK UP FOR MORDECHAI VANUNU

Two eminent nuclear physicists have filed sworn declarations in
support of a petition by Israeli nuclear whistleblower Mordechai
Vanunu asking Israel's High Court of Justice to overturn travel
and other restrictions that were imposed on Vanunu by the Israeli
government following his release this year from an 18 year jail
sentence.

The nominal intent of the restrictions is to prevent Vanunu from
disclosing any additional secrets about the unacknowledged
Israeli nuclear weapons program that he described to the press
two decades ago in violation of Israeli law.  But many observers
see the restrictions as a new punitive measure directed at
Vanunu.

British physicist Frank Barnaby, who first questioned Vanunu on
behalf of the London Sunday Times in 1986 about his disclosures,
said that Vanunu had a limited grasp of nuclear weapons
technology in the first place and that his information about
Israel's nuclear program was now likely to be obsolete in any
case.

"His knowledge of the nuclear physics and engineering was limited
to an elementary grasp of the subjects," Barnaby wrote.  "He had
precisely the sort of knowledge that you would expect a
technician to have and no more."

"The knowledge that Vanunu had about Israel's nuclear weapons,
about the operations at Dimona [an Israeli nuclear facility], and
about security at Dimona could not be of any value to anyone
today.  He left Dimona in October 1985 and the design of today's
Israeli nuclear weapons will have been considerably changed since
then," Barnaby argued.

See Dr. Barnaby's June 14 statement here:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/barnaby.pdf

Nobel laureate and Manhattan Project veteran Joseph Rotblat urged
the Israeli Court not to be swayed by exaggerated secrecy claims.

"I would suggest that you would hardly find one physicist outside
Israel who believes that Mordechai Vanunu, whether or not in 1986
he neglected to mention this or that detail, constitutes any
further significant threat to anyone's security," Rotblat wrote.

See Prof. Rotblat's June 14 statement here:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/rotblat.pdf

Mordechai Vanunu is represented in this matter by Dan Yakir of the
Association for Civil Rights in Israel (www.acri.org.il).

In response to Vanunu's pending petition, Israeli government
officials this week told the Court that Vanunu still possesses
secret knowledge that has not previously been disclosed, as well
as the motivation to release it.

The High Court of Israel will hold a hearing on the matter on
Sunday, July 11.

Mordechai Vanunu was interviewed after his release from prison by
Israeli journalist and author Yael Lotan in a remarkable BBC
documentary that was produced by Olenka Frenkiel and broadcast
May 30.


WHITE HOUSE WARNS AGAINST NEW LIMITS TO PATRIOT ACT

The White House yesterday warned the House of Representatives
against enacting any legislation that would limit the
applicability of the USA Patriot Act.

"If legislation were presented to the President that includes any
provision that forces the courts to allow notice to criminal
suspects before a search warrant is executed, the President's
senior advisors would recommend that the President veto the
bill," the White House said in a statement on the pending
Commerce, Justice and State Appropriations Act.

"If any other amendment that would weaken the USA PATRIOT Act were
adopted and presented to the President for his signature, the
President's senior advisors would recommend a veto."

See the July 7 White House statement here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2004/07/whsap070704.pdf

Rep. Bernie Sanders (Ind.-VT) was set to introduce an amendment
today "to reinstate legal standards for investigations which were
in place for library and bookstore records before the passage of
the USA Patriot Act."


ADDENDUM REGARDING THE ARMY'S "ON POINT" STUDY

In the Secrecy New story yesterday about the online version of the
Army's "On Point" study of the Iraq war that cannot be normally
printed, copied or saved, we were remiss not to have included an
Army viewpoint or explanation regarding the unusual formatting of
the document.  Here it is.

The Army concern was that the document contained non-governmental
materials including graphics and photos which might be
copyrighted, said Dan French, a spokesman for the Center for Army
Lessons Learned said.

"We have had some unscrupulous individuals who are taking our
products and selling them on CD, even on Amazon.com," he noted.

If that were to happen with the "On Point" report, the spokesman
said, this might entail a violation of the original copyright.
Once the appropriate permissions are obtained, he said, the
document would be made available without the current
restrictions, perhaps by the end of the month.

Thanks to several Secrecy News readers, more adept than I, who
proposed a variety of ways that the existing Army format
restrictions could be overcome without much difficulty.


COURT BLOCKS PUBLICATION OF CIA MEMOIR

A federal court yesterday accepted the Central Intelligence
Agency's argument that a former CIA employee cannot publish her
memoir because the Agency says it contains classified
information.

The former employee, who sued the CIA under the pseudonym Wendy
Lee, argued that the CIA had unlawfully imposed a prior restraint
upon her speech by improperly classifying her memoir.  The CIA
insisted that the classification decisions were justified.

The Court yielded entirely to the CIA.

"The information in Lee's memoir was properly classified, and even
if it were not, it is controlled by the secrecy agreement to
which Lee is a party," wrote Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson.  "Lee
therefore has no First Amendment right to either publish the
information or make it available to her counsel."

The last point is particularly noteworthy.  Ms. Lee was not
entitled to the full benefit of counsel because her attorney was
not granted access to the contested material by CIA.

It is "another example of the Executive Branch getting whatever it
wants in national security cases," said Mark S. Zaid, who
represents Lee.  "Why, one must ask, can 'Anonymous' write a
critical book about the CIA while still working there, but a
former employee cannot?"

("Anonymous," whose actual name was reported by Jason Vest in the
Boston Phoenix last week, is author of the widely publicized book
"Imperial Hubris.")

See the July 7 decision in Wendy Lee v. Central Intelligence
Agency here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/jud/wendylee070704.pdf


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

Secrecy_news-remove.nul

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

                     Re: Secrecy News -- 07-07-04 - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:23:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 12:03:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Secrecy News -- 07-07-04 - King


>From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
>To: <secrecy_news.nul>
>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:54:10 -0400
>Subject: Secrecy News -- 07-07-04

>SECRECY NEWS
>from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
>Volume 2004, Issue No. 62
>July 7, 2004

>**     ARMY STUDY OF IRAQ WAR SUPPRESSED, RELEASED ON WEB
>**     LAWSUIT OF FBI WHISTLEBLOWER SIBEL EDMONDS DISMISSED
>**     NEW FOIA EXEMPTION FOR UNCLASSIFIED SATELLITE IMAGERY
>**     RECENT FOIA RULINGS
>**     REPORT ON INDUSTRIAL ESPIONAGE 2003
>**     THE GAME OF GO AND THE CHINESE WAY OF WAR

>ARMY STUDY OF IRAQ WAR SUPPRESSED, RELEASED ON WEB
>
>Despite extraordinary steps by the Army to limit online public
>access to a new report on the Iraq war, the study has
>nevertheless been published without the Army's cooperation.
>
>The Army recently completed a book-length study of Operation
>Iraqi Freedom entitled "On Point." It is a revealing and fairly
>critical account of lessons learned from the war.
>
>Last month, the Center for Army Lessons Learned posted the study
>here:

>http://onpoint.leavenworth.army.mil/

>Incredibly, however, the web version of the Army document is
>coded in such a way that it cannot be downloaded, or copied, or
>printed out. It must be read online at the Army site, or not at
>all.

>This may be unprecedented for a government web site. The very
>notion of a document that cannot be downloaded is antithetical
>to the web and seems like an artifact from an alternate
>universe. If the Axis powers had won World War II, the whole
>internet might look like this.

I'm not sure what you are talking about on this post. I visited
the referenced site and had no difficulty copying the text from
the pages and pasting them into a separate document.

In fact, even sites which try to keep folks from copying or
downloading are typically unsuccessful.

An "Edit/Select all" command and then a "Edit/Copy" worked just
fine for me. And just for good measure, this particular site was
even able to be saved using the simple IE "File/Save as..."
dialogue. But you have to save the pages individually.

There's a lot more ways than one to copy web content.

And a quirkily-coded page does not a conspiracy make. I'm sure
that even our bumbling military is aware that there is no such
thing as "secure" web pages. The fact that they are on the "web"
denies any real security. The notice at the top of the document
noting "security measures" is distressing if it reflects the
true opinion of the folks that posted the document. I mean, if
they think THAT site is "secure", we're all in more trouble than
we thought.

Interesting stuff besides.....


Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

                 Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:09:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 12:14:31 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Sparks


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:23:44 -0300
>Subject: New Varginha Case Revelations


>VARGINHA CASE:

>New revelations about the capture and medical treatment of alien
>creatures in Brazil, January 1996

<snip>

Where are the details of any "medical treatment"? I had to
delete all the breathless rhetoric. Just present this supposed
"revelation" and spare us the claptrap and wide-eyed commentary.

>In the beginning of 2003 Varginha was visited by Roger Leir,
>US ufologist and acknowledged physician, whose experience
>of more than 50 years as a UFO researcher

<snip>

Where is there any evidence that Leir has "more than 50 years"
of experience as a UFO researcher? I never heard of him till the
90's. I see no publications by him in the 50's and 60's and 70's
and 80's UFO publications. What does this mean, that he was
hobbyist or enthusiast who collected magazines for most of 50
years and that qualifies him as a "UFO researcher"?

>During more than three hours of
>talk, Roger Leir heard from his Brazilian colleague the
>confirmation that a second creature of uncommon physical
>appearance was captured. The "Doctor" revealed a new detail
>unknown to researchers till that time.

Where are the _medical_ details from this "more than 3 hours"
of interviewing by one _medical_ doctor of another purported
_medical_ doctor.

>Injured Creature

>According to the "Doctor" - who refuses to reveal his real
>name - the body presented injuries of different kinds and grades.

After 3+ hours you can't present the _medical_ details of these
purported "injuries of different kinds and grades"???

>The "Doctor" ... decided to trust
>his US colleague telling everything.

Where is this "everything"? There was not one single medical
detail presented!

>The "Doctor" was touched
>and giving us a new detail about the case with a serious
>expression on his face

<snip>

Oh please! I snipped out the rest of the telepathic stuff.....

When a supposed anonymous _medical_ doctor cannot give us even
the first thing, _medically_, about the supposed "alien creature"
he was allegedly examining and 'treating' then he has not even
proven that he really is a Doctor, and hides behind convenient
anonymity.

Establish your medical facts first about the supposed "alien"
before plying us with nonsense about telepathy, etc.

>The "Doctor" also said that he could not understand the
>physiological constitution of the body we was examining even
>though it was an anthropomorphic being, with head, trunk and
>members.

Then how could he even "treat" the creature? Either say to us
that he could not give the creature treatment and could not tell
if it was injured or not because the physiology was too strange
to understand, or do not say such nonsense. If he "treated" it
and could tell it was "injured" then he did understand enough
about its physiology to do that.

>The "Doctor" did not hear any sound made by the
>creature neither mentioned the famous "thin, bifurcated tongue",
>reported by other medic and military witnesses. He said he had
>seen its slow movements, proving it was still alive, but refused
>to say if it was breathing.

>More revelations to come very soon.

This is as laughable as Stringfield's bogus "alien autopsy"
which sounded like a Meat Packer or Butcher Shop Assistant had
made up the description not a scientist, medical physician or
pathologist. Where are the details of the creature's height,
weight, color, tabulation of body parts and distinguishable
organs, condition of body part by part organ by organ, breathing
(he _refused_ to say! WTF is that?), pulse and pulse rate if
any, nature and description of injuries injury by injury, manner
of treatment for each injury, drugs administered if any, body
fluids and waste products emitted if any, blood and circulatory
system if any, bone structure if any, musculature if any, skin
condition if any, description of lesions-contusions-lacerations
if any (it was injured so there had to be some right?), foreign
objects if any (shrapnel maybe?), clothing and attire if any,
radiography-sonography-MRI if any, lab tests of blood-tissue-
fluids, etc. etc.

How did the creature's condition change with time, minute to
minute, hour by hour? Any real doctor wants to establish some
kind of idea of a prognosis - is the condition worsening,
improving, staying the same? With an alleged unknown entity with
supposedly strange physiology any real physician in his right
mind will be keenly attentive to such signs to see if his
treatment regimen is working, so he can stop something that
isn't working and/or apply emergency aid, or follow on a
promising avenue of treatment if something does seem to work.

If this was the most sensational event of this so-called
"Doctor's" life then he should have been going over every one of
these _medical_ details in his mind day after day for the past 8
years, trying to make _medical_ sense of it all. And there is
not one sign of any such _medical_ thought processes. But if
this is just another dumbass hoax by a non-MD layperson then one
would expect no realistic sounding clinical descriptions, no
medical terminology, no sign of a real physician's diagnostic
mindset. In fact a lay hoaxer most likely would not even know
what "diagnosis" means.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

                      Fleet Of Daytime UFOs Video Taped

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:00:45 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 12:20:39 -0400
Subject: Fleet Of Daytime UFOs Video Taped


Hi List Members,

Grafton N.S.W. (Australia) Thursday 8th July 2004.

Event duration: 1.18 to 2 25pm.

Grafton Based UFO Researcher Barry Taylor Caught 5 Different
UFOs On Video

At 1.18pm I was outside waiting to be picked up for a business
meeting when I looked up into the clear blue sky and noticed an
unusual object at around 2,000 feet slowly heading north. I
raced inside and grabbed my video camera and proceeded to shoot
the object for the next 5 minutes.

This object was a 'cluster' type UFO. It consisted of around
5 individual orbs attached together. There were white/pink orbs
with black to dark kaki coloured 'spheres' attached and clearly
protruding off the whitish orbs. The whole 'cluster' rolled and
tumbled about during the observation.

I then had to leave for town and the pre-arranged meeting. I
returned home after an hour and the UFOs were still coming
overhead. They must have been constant UFO flyovers during this
time - over an hour.

I again began to video this activity. There was a maroon red
object approaching at lower altitude heading directly overhead.
It seemed to pulse, slowly.

Another object looked like a disc with a flat base, or 'D'
shaped. This object also had one black sphere attached to the
outside. The object rolled back-and-forth during its flight.

The last object seen was a white sphere. Through the video
camera, I could see an unusual energy halo surrounding the
object. This energy halo washad similar colours to diesel fuel
spilt on water with the Sun reflecting on it - a brownish orange
rainbow array of colours.

I am currently in the process of analysing and enhancing the 10
minutes of footage. I will stabilize and super zoom the best
clips and apply enhancing features to see what can be learnt
from this event. It looks impressive so far.

I will have images and a short video clip of these objects
available on my web site early next week. So will inform you
when available.

If you have not yet read my article on "How to see UFOs", then
I suggest you do so and put it into action. It is only because
of my keen eye that I was able to witness this event.

http://theozfactor.cjb.net/seeufos.htm


Regards,

Barry Taylor








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

               UFO "Accident" Claim By Fireman - Video Report

From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 23:02:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 12:23:09 -0400
Subject: UFO "Accident" Claim By Fireman - Video Report


A 5-minute video summary of a bizarre UFO/automobile accident
described by a Pierce Township (Ohio) Fire officer is freely
available online in a .wmv format (will open with Windows Media
Player version 9). This strange case occurred in Clermont
County, Ohio in the early 90s.

The video was shown as a 'roll-in' on a 2002 edition of "UFO
Update: LIVE!" produced by Bob Leibold of Natural Light
Productions. This 5-minute segment is produced by Kenny Young
and features investigator Donnie Blessing (with an excellent
investigation and reporting of the claim) and direct on-camera
testimony by Pierce Twp. fire officer Louis Spears.

Special thanks to Sean Feeney for uploading and hosting the
video.

For low bandwidth/dial-up computers, click on:

http://www.ufounderground.net/submitted/kenny/ufoupdate/UFO_UPDATE_pierce_firema
n_91_56k.wmv

For high bandwidth/Cable/DSL users, click on:

http://www.ufounderground.net/submitted/kenny/ufoupdate/UFO_UPDATE_pierce_firema
n_91_DSL.wmv






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

             Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:58:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 12:25:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto - Hebert


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:59:29 -0400
>Subject: Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto

>>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 06:10:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Mexican Scientific Community Manifesto

>>I'm trying to ascertain exactly which individuals outside of the
>>Mexican Air Force and/or Department of Defense have been allowed
>>to review the original, unedited FLIR video footage and
>>currently have copies of said video in their possession.

<snip>

>You would have to ask Jaime Maussan how many people have
>received the video. I know of several throughout the world
>Furthermore I have been told it is now at:

>http://www.pixcells.dk/mexico/mexicoDODstream.wmv

Thank you, Bruce.

That was very nice of whomever made this footage available on
line. Unfortunately, because it is a .wmv, it's not much good for
research purposes. If it is not against any copyright laws,
etc., my offer still stands to make DVD or VHS copies for anyone
wishing to study copies of the original FLIR footage (if someone
wants to send me a copy so I can make copies).

Maybe you or someone with a copy could send a copy to those UNAM
guys so they won't feel so left out? Seems to me the more
scientists/researchers working on this the better. ;>


Sincerely,

AHebert








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 9

                      Stunning Images From Saturn Probe

From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:43:55 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 12:31:24 -0400
Subject: Stunning Images From Saturn Probe


Source: BBC Online

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3878815.stm

07-08-04

Stunning Images From Saturn Probe
By Richard Black
BBC science correspondent

The images show interior rings of red "dirt"

The Cassini-Huygens spacecraft which reached Saturn last week
has sent back images and data which may reveal the origin of the
planet's famous rings.

Pictures showed bumps and curves in some of the rings, while
instruments have been able to analyse what the rings are made
of.

Cassini has also provided close-up pictures on two of Saturn's
moons.

Cassini's path took it between two of Saturn's rings, and the
pictures it has produced are simply stunning.

The rings ripple and shimmy - in one image, the thin outer F-
ring snakes across the Saturn sky like a newly-cracked whip.

Cassini's instruments, meanwhile, are showing scientists why the
rings have these features.

"We knew there was a pair of moons, one on each side, that were
somehow interacting with the ring," says Professor Carl Murray
from Queen Mary University of London.

"So I was sitting looking at the images, and I noticed that
there appeared to be like a stream of material coming from the
F-ring to the inner of the two moons, Prometheus," he says.

"That was confirmation of a theory that had been produced over
four years ago; that's very satisfying."

Ice and dirt

Cassini's instruments show that the rings are mainly made of
ice. But there is something else too - a dark material, which
mission scientists call simply "dirt".

Outer rings, shown in turquoise, contain more ice

And it seems to be the same material which dominates the surface
of the outer moon, Phoebe, adding weight to the theory that the
rings formed from the demolition of a previous moon.

The biggest moon of all, Titan, is believed to be the only body
in the solar system other than Earth with liquid on the surface.

Cassini has already been able to peer through its dense clouds,
photographing craters, deposits of ice, and lines and circles of
unknown origin.

The images of Titan and Phoebe are strangely reminiscent of
photos of the Earth and our own Moon, taken decades ago by the
earliest space missions.

They are so clear that you struggle to remember that they are
coming from a distance of one-and-a-half-billion kilometres.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                        Re: Tom, Dick & Kerry - Grass

From: Robert Grass <RDGRASS.nul>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 03:36:45 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:41:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Tom, Dick & Kerry - Grass


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:00:29 -0700
>Subject: Tom, Dick & Kerry

<snip>

>The Democrats would say Kerry favors amnesty for illegal aliens.
>So does Bush, the GOP would counter. But what would you do with
>all those spaceships?

Hello Frank and Listers,

The only problem with that scenario is that Kerry would wait for
decades of UN resolutions and then make sure the Russian,
French, German and Canadian governments were behind him before
doing anything.

We would have one hell of a traffic jam of spaceships by then!


Robert








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:22:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:45:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Kaeser


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:30:45 -0700
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

<snip>

>Steven,

>I really don't understand your objections to my research.
>You'll need to be more specific. You know from your own
>experience that the cameraman gave a set of directions to the
>site. You followed them yourself; and that's what I did. You
>must have "believed" that you might find something.

>Folks don't go wandering around this stretch of desert on a
>lark. What would you have done if you had found the site we
>discovered, covered with burned vegetation and blue, glass-like
>material, just as the cameraman described?


Ed,

We've been through this before, but I'll briefly make a comment.

You've gone to a site described in a document that I have no
reason to believe is anything more than Ray Santilli's
imagination. In other words, you've taken a description and
used that to find a location that appears to fit the description
and looked for anomolies to support your contention. This is not
scientific and of limited value to the field, IMO.

Yes, I went to Socorro to look for a site using the alleged
cameraman's description and found that no roads (then or now)
fit the description as had been laid down initially. You've
found a site that you believe to be the crash site mentioned,
and Bob Shell (who doesn't even care to get further involved in
the AA "film" any further) also has a site that he believes is
the one mentioned, but it's no where near yours. Michael
Hesemann (sp?) has another site identified, and so on and so on.

I know from my reading and discussions with the principal
investigators that the cameraman provided a description of the
site to Ray Santillin on the phone, which was then drawn by an
artist from Ray's description. The artist never spoke with the
cameraman, and the cameraman never looked at or approved the
actual drawing. So what is the actual basis of your site.....
Ray's description? You believe in what Ray has provided, but
most of those in the field do not. While I find the AA "film"
to be an interesting subject worthy of further study when
information becomes available, I have no illusions that Ray has
told everything he knows and he has been found to be dishonest
in some respects.

As I said, my concerns with regard to your claim is that the
foundation upon which it is based is highly suspect and thus any
conclusions are also suspect.

Steve








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

             Re: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:32:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:47:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:12:08 -0700
>Subject: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday Night

>Source: KTRE Channel 9.nul

>http://www.ktre.com/Global/story.asp?S11752&nav=2FH5OZC9

>07/07/04 - East Texas

>Reports of Object "Falling from the Sky" Wednesday Night

>The East Texas News received numerous phone calls Wednesday
>night from viewers who reported seeing something "falling from
>the sky." Local law enforcement agencies also received calls from
>citizens claiming to have seen something out of the ordinary in
>the night sky.

>KTRE Chief Meteorologist Lee Ringer says these sights were not
>the result of a weather event but were more than likely a meteor
>passing through the earth's atmosphere. Officials with the North
>American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) report to the Federal
>Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) that a heightened period of
>meteor showers was expected to begin Wednesday night and
>continue through the month.

>The National Weather Service says similar reports of objects
>"falling from the sky" were received from Witchita Falls, Texas
>to Little Rock, Arkansas.

A cop in one of Dallas' suburbs (Rockwall I think?) caught the
bolide on his cruiser camera during a traffic stop. I was very
bright and seemed to "flame out" then re-ignite. Very strange
but it was indeed a meteor. No doubt there are rock hounds out
trying to find fragments as we speak.


Terry









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                        Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:21:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:49:58 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Groff


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:12:56 EDT
>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

>>From: Mathieu - Paris <mfilms1.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:39:46 +0200
>>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Mathieu

>>[Non-Subscriber Post]

>>>http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=3D1&click_id=3D139&art_id=3Dvn20040=
701110118306C214932

>>>07-01-04

>>>UFO Over Durban Captured On Video

>>>By Ayanda Mhlongo

>>Dear UFO UpDates Listers,

>>Did anyone take a few minutes to check with any software if
>>Venus could be in the sky of Phoenix - Durban, South Africa, at
>>4 AM (local time) the 27th of June?

>>When I tried to see by myself, I was surprised. Venus was not
>>above the horizon. Thinking I could be wrong, because I am not
>>an astronomer nor university professor, I sent a mail
>>to the South African Astronomical Observatory, yesterday:

><snip>

>Merci Mathieu!

>It appears you've done the detective work that many have not.

>So simple yet so powerful.

>We should all of us contact the newspapers that carried the
>'Venus' explanation and chastise them for not doing the work a
>responsible press should have done as Mathieu has done.

>Let's all us Yanks go to S. Africa and beat up the guys who ran
>that Venus story :)

According to my software, Venus was well below the horizon at
4:00 am in Durban, S. Africa (Lat. S 29:53:00 Long. E 30:53:00)
and didn't rise until just before 5.00 am

Az: 59:41:10; Alt: 13:10:16
RA: 4:34:52; Dec: 18:12:55
Ecliptic Lon: 69:47:15; Lat: -3:44:33
Galactic Lon: 179:20:44; Lat: -19:26:09
Rising:  Jun 27, 2004; 4:49:57 A.M.
Transit: Jun 27, 2004; 10:08:12 A.M.
Setting: Jun 27, 2004; 3:26:35 P.M.
Phase: 10.7%, Phase angle: 141.74=F8
Apparent Diameter: 49.12"
Distance from Observer: 0.340 AU


Terry Groff

Field Investigator/Webmaster
Dallas-Fort Worth MUFON
http://mufondfw.com
Webmaster
UFO TOOLS
http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/

"The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO.
Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket
and refracted the light from Venus"
- Agent 'K'








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                Re: Does NASA Publish Inverted Data? - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:42:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:52:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Does NASA Publish Inverted Data? - Groff


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:34:00 +0100
>Subject: Does NASA Publish Inverted Data?

>Extracted enlargement;

>http://www.colsweb.com/marsmelt2.gif

>from

>http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2004/07/07/index.html

>showing Mars Carbon Dioxide Ice Pole melt.

>Has NASA got the number upside down!?

>Maybe as the ice melts to a greater depth two more 6's will be
>revealed? Letter hight is approx 70 feet ( 23 metres ).

>col

Two _more_ "6's"?  I don't see the first "6" yet. I bet if I
search the spackle on my ceiling long enough I could find
several "6's".


Terry








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:04:54 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:12:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Ledger


>From: Geoffrey Richardson <geoff.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:50:34 +0100
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:23:57 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>>From: Geoffrey Richardson <geoff.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:17:15 +0100
>>>Subject: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>>Read "Creatures With No Business Here" at:

>>>"The (authentic) WHY? Files"

>>>http://www.thewhyfiles.net

>>After about 45 seconds of looking, I didn't see a quick link
>>to the article you mention.You might want to highlight that for
>>those of us who don't have time to search.

>Sorry about this but if you run down the file list the "topic"
>will highlight itself.

Hi Geoff,

Like Steve, I went there. Couldn't find it. Found the Shuttle
stuff and while trying to download that my Mac locked up. Had to
do an illegal shutdown [now the Mac police will be after me] and
reboot. That never happened before on your site.

Anyway, why not just post the actual URL? Is it some agreement
you have with the advertizers?


Don Ledger









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 11:39:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:21:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 19:53:40 -0400
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:31:22 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:41:15 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

<snip>

>>Thank you ever so much Dick Hall!

>>Your post is the most world shattering I've read to date.

>>This data from conscious abductees is the linchpin to this
>>entire phenomena.

>I seem to recall that, as long as 20 years ago, Budd was saying
>that roughly 1/4 of abductees recall all or most of the
>experience consciously. At any rate, the rather large percentage
>of "conscious recallers" has been known for a long time.... and
>ignored by the skeptics for an equally long time.

Oh my God!

Thank you so much Dr. Maccabee!

It's taken me a day just to get my self together after reading
your post.

If that's what Mr. Hopkins says then that's enough to warrant
major public address by the authorities.

They, psychologists and psychiatrists, can spin all they want,
but a subject who has conscious recall can submit to the
simplest battery of tests to determine whether their accounts
are true.

Since physical evidence is extremely rare I see why these
abductees are shuffled off to mental health professionals but
that doesn't call for the decades old stigma afforded them.

We as a culture are in danger as we trust our well being to a
science like psychiatry that's about still relatively new in
comparison with the other sciences, and in constant spotlight
for abuse and controversy.

I grew up amongst the largest psychiatric centers in the world
and around the world's top folks in the fields of psychiatry and
psychology. I was even going to go to college for psychology as
I felt it would help me to contribute to making life better for
folks. Glad I didn't! After reading and interviewing victims of
psychiatric abuse I was bowled over.

I shoulda listened to Jeff Rense a long time ago.

Then, looking into Ufology and seeing the horrid treatment toward
researchers, abductees, witnesses, whistleblowers, even skeptics
and debunkers, I've come to the conclusion that there's no alien
threat but a 'headshrinker' threat.

I've seen people use mental health for vindictive purposes. It's
constantly in the news now. I recall once on the old Parascope
Grassy Knoll forum on America Online during one of my live
online UFO chats I asked the crowd there what they all felt
about psychiatry.

Normally that rambunctious crowd had diverging viewpoints on
every subject and quite often a good donnybrook would break out.
Yet this was the only time in the 6 years I'd worked there that
there was a 100% agreement that everyone, believers, skeptics,
debunkers, all hated no end psychiatry.

I was shocked! They all started telling horror stories of what
had happened to them while under psychiatric care. It was
abominable what many of these people went through. I had to send
them to several watchdog group and attorney websites to report
their incidents. Even a former victim of the MK Ultra
experiments came forward and stunned all of us with verified
documentation of his ongoing battle for justice.

It's not only the folks in Ufology who undergo this nonsense and
to my suprise many a skeptic and debunker had their fair share
of abuse and ridicule from that area of the medical community.

I guess believers, skeptics, debunkers do indeed have a common
enemy. The skeptics and debunkers weren't being attacked by
believers, they were being attacked for their research into
business affairs of industrial groups. Soon as they peered into
it as many a researcher and reporter does they told me they'd
get called 'nuts', 'crazy' etc.

We as a culture have sublimated ourselves to a shadowy science
that is no where near complete, yet is used in every area of our
lives to control us and manipulate us into chattle.

We've allowed psychiatrists to hold such a high ground
determining for us what we should accept as real or not. We're
not supposed to allow that! Faith is a big part of the lives of
billions of people on this planet. At least 5 billion believe
some sort of spiritual beingness. It could be because they truly
believe it to be or they've been conditioned to believe. What
matters is that they do without physical proof. They have
archaeological artifacts and texts and songs but that's it.

Yet you just try telling the billions of us there's no God or
Angels etc. and you run a good chance of getting your lights
punched out. Put em' under a lie detector and you'ld sure as
heck would get a reaction that what they believe and encountered
as true.

Yet you won't see any psychiatrists dashing into the nearest
church or synagogue or mosque trying to toss a net over the
congregation.

So why the broad net over abductee stories, researchers,
whistleblowers, skeptics and debunkers?

Because all of us, whether pro or con are a threat to the
theives of this world. That's why. We might ask those questions,
raise those levels of awareness and worst of all, find something
out.

I just saw Steven Spielberg's film "Schindler's List". It took
me a long time to get up the courage to watch it. Yet it showed
me how even when things are darkest for us all, one person with
compassion could make a difference. That's all. One person with
the guts to do something right in direct face of death.

Conscious abductees and their data as well as those few
artifacts that have been recovered should be brought to the
fore.

Doc, I find that data from Hopkin's research the most important
data yet gleaned and for one would petition he be given the
international air time to show it all and tell it all. Same for
Dr. Jacobs and the rest of the researchers. If their subjects
were conscious, that's solid enough for me.


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                            Re: Toutatis - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:55:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:23:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Toutatis - Miller


>From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 17:34:31 +0100
>Subject: Re: Toutatis

>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:19:47 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
>>Subject: Re: Toutatis

Hello Ray,

<snip>

>Go back to media reports of 20 years ago and find impact-
>predictions being laughed at by politicians, tame `scientists'
>and press; then go back ten years and see a little different
>attitude; then go back one year and see just a small realization
>by ignorant (but dominating) politicos, media hacks & tame
>`scientists'.


It should be acknowledged that what progress we may have made in
the UK about "planet protection" is down entirely to the efforts
of Lord Sainsbury. Without him, we wouldn't even have what
little we do have.


Stuart Miller








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                       Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:07:41 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:41:19 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Balaskas


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:12:56 EDT
>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

>>From: Mathieu - Paris <mfilms1.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:39:46 +0200
>>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Mathieu

>>[Non-Subscriber Post]

>>>http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=139&art_id=vn200407011101183
06C214932

<snip>

>>When I tried to see by myself, I was surprised. Venus was not
>>above the horizon. Thinking I could be wrong, because I am not
>>an astronomer nor university professor, I sent a mail
>>to the South African Astronomical Observatory, yesterday:

<snip>

>It appears you've done the detective work that many have not.

>So simple yet so powerful.

>We should all of us contact the newspapers that carried the
>'Venus' explanation and chastise them for not doing the work a
>responsible press should have done as Mathieu has done.

>Let's all us Yanks go to S. Africa and beat up the guys who ran
>that Venus story :)

Hold on Greg!

Let us not invade another country before we are sure of our
facts this time!

Mathieu's conclusion that it could not be Venus is wrong because
it is based on a false assumption (Venus was _not_ below the
horizon for the duration of this UFO sighting) and does not take
into account all the other facts - a scientific sin that
distinguishes bebunkers from critical thinking investigators of
UFO sightings.

Below are excerpts of the UFO article taken from the news story
in the web site above followed by my comments in [brackets].

"The light was so bright, at first I thought it was a police
helicopter searching for criminals. But when I could not hear
the sound of the rotor blades, I decided to draw the curtains
and check what it was."

[In late June Venus was almost as bright as the very brilliant
light in the morning sky we now see - the third brightest
celestial object in the sky after the Sun and Moon. Of course,
Venus does not make any sounds either.]

Roshnie Naidu, of Phoenix, could not believe her eyes when she
saw a huge, pulsating, colourful light in the sky. "It looked
like a massive ball of light, much brighter than the sun, with
blue and purple colours filtering through. My eyes were glued to
it for almost 10 minutes, it was unbelievable. I had never seen
anything like it before," she said.

[When Venus is very low in the sky, it will appear as a "huge,
pulsating, colourful light". Not too many people would be awake
several hours before sunrise around this time of the year when
Venus is at its maximum brightness as a morning star to
appreciate this beautiful sight.]

Naidu told the Daily News she woke up just before 4am on Sunday.

[Venus rose over three hours _before_ the Sun and would have
really impressed the witness when seen in the dark night sky.]

She was watching TV when she noticed a bright light flashing
through her curtains. She did not take any notice of it at
first, but the light continued to shine in her face.

[Venus, and all other planets and stars in the sky, seem to be
stationary objects that hardly move.]

According to Naidu, when she drew the curtains she could not
believe what she was seeing. "I still cannot explain to people
who did not see the object what it was.

[This is why Venus continues to thrill generations of
skywatchers and is frequently mentioned in poems and mythology
almost as often as the Sun and Moon. Since Venus is at its most
brilliance only once or twice a year, it is often mistaken for
UFO.]

"After a couple of seconds, the object would change shape from
being circular to oval."

[Bright lights that have a small angular size like Venus and
distant helicopter searchlights can give the illusion of such
small changes in shape. Others who have mistaken Venus for a UFO
claim to have seen windows or landing gear!].

She rushed to her daughter's bedroom to wake her up, but she
refused to get up. "When I tried to wake up my husband he told
me that I was seeing things and sent me away. "But I persisted
and pulled him out of bed and opened our bedroom curtains."
Naidu's husband, Shrirama, said he wiped his eyes a couple of
times because he could not believe what he was seeing. "I
immediately told my wife to call our neighbours and alert them
to what was happening."

[I had the same reactions with my family many years ago when I
noticed out of my window in that the entire night sky was on
fire! No one bothered to come out with me and lie back on the
grass and be awed by this spectacular show of the Northern
Lights except for my mother who came out briefly to tell me to
come inside so the neighbours do not think I was crazy!]

Shrirama managed to capture video footage of the unidentified
object that was in the sky.

[Venus and other stationary bright objects such as street lights
can also appear very impressive when captured on video,
especially when the zoom feature is used and the video camera is
held by someone with excited hands!]

According to the Naidus, the object was in the sky for about
three hours. It disappeared as the sun came up and it became
lighter.

[Like I said earlier, Venus was already visible in the night sky
for over three hours before sunrise. Just like the Moon, Venus
could still be seen in daylight sky if you know exactly where to
look!]

The Naidus said they had no idea what the object was and would
like someone to explain it to them. "We are hoping that someone
will be able to view the footage that we have captured and
explain the fireball to us," they said.

[Although the position of Venus in the sky is not exactly the
same as the day of the UFO sighting, Naidus can wake up very
early and see if there is a brilliant light in the night sky
where she saw her UFO. She will then be able to convince herself
that what she saw was indeed the planet Venus. If Naidus did
observe this UFO for at least 3 hours, it is very surprising to
me that she made no mention of this other brilliant object in
the morning sky which cannot be easily overlooked!]

Weather forecaster Ntobeko Nkangana said no objects were picked
up in the sky on Sunday morning. Nkangana said weather balloons
are released only at midnight and midday. "The weather balloons
remain in the sky for a maximum of two hours."

[Since there were no other reports of a bright UFO that remained
in the sky over Durban for many hours, I think we can only
concluded that the other witnesses correctly interpreted it for
what it was - a very bright star or planet.]


Nick Balaskas








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                Re: Fleet Of Daytime UFOs Video Taped - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:47:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:48:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Fleet Of Daytime UFOs Video Taped - King


>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:00:45 +1000
>Subject: Fleet Of Daytime UFOs Video Taped

>Grafton N.S.W. (Australia) Thursday 8th July 2004.

>Event duration: 1.18 to 2 25pm.

>Grafton Based UFO Researcher Barry Taylor Caught 5 Different
>UFOs On Video

>At 1.18pm I was outside waiting to be picked up for a business
>meeting when I looked up into the clear blue sky and noticed an
>unusual object at around 2,000 feet slowly heading north. I
>raced inside and grabbed my video camera and proceeded to shoot
>the object for the next 5 minutes.

>This object was a 'cluster' type UFO. It consisted of around
>5 individual orbs attached together. There were white/pink orbs
>with black to dark kaki coloured 'spheres' attached and clearly
>protruding off the whitish orbs. The whole 'cluster' rolled and
>tumbled about during the observation.
<snip>

Hi Barry,

I noticed that July 8 marked the first day of the 2004 Racing
Carnival in Grafton. Is it possible that what you saw were
released helium-filled Mylar promotional or event-related
balloons?

I was especially mindful of this possibility when noting your
comments on the "brownish-orange rainbow array". Holiday
balloons of the Mylar variety often carry a "diffraction-
grating" finish, which absolutely manifests as a "rainbow
array" when seen at a distance. Also, a "pulsing red orb" is a
pretty good description of the same type of balloon... colored
red on one side and plain aluminized surface on the
reverse...spinning as it is buffeted by winds aloft.

As the Carnival is underway until July 17, it would be a simple
matter to visit the site and inquire as to the available
balloons for sale. If they are available and fit the colors
observed, a valuable experiment would be to tie several of them
together, and release them... video-taping the entire operation.

You would learn several valuable observational details which
could help preclude future mis-identification, and would make
you a veritable "expert" in Mylar UFO analysis. If the video
looked nothing like your sighting, you'd have ample ammo for the
debunkers.

Based on my prior observations of very "energetic" Mylar
balloons aloft at our local Six Flags amusement park, your
descriptions point to this testable hypothesis (balloons) before
any other. It would be very interesting to see the resulting
video from your original vantage point, no?

At any rate, I know firsthand the excitement at seeing these
things aloft. Some seem to hover, while others dart about in
straight lines, and still others pulsate, change shape,
etc...all in the same field of view... owing to differences in
wind direction and speed at various altitudes, along with the
configuration(s) of the balloons (tied together or separate).
The fact that I quickly recognized the objects did little to
assuage my initial startled reaction.

I imagine a dozen colored Mylar balloons, a few sticks of balsa,
and some helium might produce a very believable UFO, especially
if the individual balloons were able to spin freely to produce
the truly convincing pulsating colors.


Regards,

Kyle King







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                 Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:47:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:52:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - King


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:30:45 -0700
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:23:57 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

<snip>

>>While I am one of those who was active in the AA investigation
>>early on, my concern with Ed's conclusions is that he bases his
>>later theories and conclusions on statements and drawings that
>>are of little actual value (unless you want to believe in them).

>I really don't understand your objections to my research.
>You'll need to be more specific. You know from your own
>experience that the cameraman gave a set of directions to the
>site. You followed them yourself; and that's what I did. You
>must have "believed" that you might find something.

<snip>

>After all the pompous parading of the scientific method that
>we've seen lately on the list, I'd think you'd appreciate
>someone who actually did try to follow its principles.


Forgive my intrusion into the fray, but could you be more
specific on your description of the "blue, glass-like material"?

Cristobalite, a silicon oxide from the quartz family, is very
abundant. I don't know what you mean by a "trace element". It is
not an element at all, but a compound of Silicon and Oxygen. It
is a crystalline mineral formed through volcanic (or other high
heat and pressure)action. It is not blue, but rather white to
very light gray. It does however often form within a matrix of
of another mineral, obsidian, for example...another mineral of
volcanic or "high heat and pressure" action. Here's a
photographic example:

http://www.gc.maricopa.edu/earthsci/imagearchive/cristobalite.htm

It might also interest you to know that Cristobalite is also
used as an ingredient in the manufacture of high-temperature
seals by the aerospace industry... the missile people.

Knowing the composition of the matrix surrounding your
"Cristobalite" would help clarify its possible origin, or at
least limit the range of possibilities. My guess is that there
are many sites in New Mexico which exhibit similar mineral
aggregations, based on the number of missile test sites located
there combined with the abundance of Silicates. The presence of
Cristobalite indicates only that there was an episode of extreme
heat and pressure at some time. Since Cristobalite forms in rock
molten to 1470 degrees Celsius, correlating this with the
temperatures found in missile detonations or impacts may shed
light on a possible terrestrial source for the "blue glass" you
found.

As for "pompous parading of the scientific method", is this
reflective of a thinly-veiled contempt, or just an unfortunate
choice of words? If those that hold to a rigorous protocol for
"scientific investigation" are "pompously parading", what do you
make of those that draw extreme conclusions from common minerals
and uncorroborated hearsay?

In sum, your blue glass could be indicative of extra-terrestrial
visitation. A more likely scenario is that it was created as a
by-product of one of the thousands of missile detonations in the
area.

Color me a pompous parader... with Occam's "twin-blade" in his
toilet kit.


Kyle King








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                  Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:57:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:35:03 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - King


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:09:52 EDT
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:23:44 -0300
>>Subject: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>VARGINHA CASE:

>>New revelations about the capture and medical treatment of alien
>>creatures in Brazil, January 1996

<snip>

>This is as laughable as Stringfield's bogus "alien autopsy"
>which sounded like a Meat Packer or Butcher Shop Assistant had
>made up the description not a scientist, medical physician or
>pathologist. Where are the details of the creature's height,
>weight, color, tabulation of body parts and distinguishable
>organs, condition of body part by part organ by organ, breathing
>(he _refused_ to say! WTF is that?), pulse and pulse rate if
>any, nature and description of injuries injury by injury, manner
>of treatment for each injury, drugs administered if any, body
>fluids and waste products emitted if any, blood and circulatory
>system if any, bone structure if any, musculature if any, skin
>condition if any, description of lesions-contusions-lacerations
>if any (it was injured so there had to be some right?), foreign
>objects if any (shrapnel maybe?), clothing and attire if any,
>radiography-sonography-MRI if any, lab tests of blood-tissue-
>fluids, etc. etc.

>How did the creature's condition change with time, minute to
>minute, hour by hour? Any real doctor wants to establish some
>kind of idea of a prognosis - is the condition worsening,
>improving, staying the same? With an alleged unknown entity with
>supposedly strange physiology any real physician in his right
>mind will be keenly attentive to such signs to see if his
>treatment regimen is working, so he can stop something that
>isn't working and/or apply emergency aid, or follow on a
>promising avenue of treatment if something does seem to work.

>If this was the most sensational event of this so-called
>"Doctor's" life then he should have been going over every one of
>these _medical_ details in his mind day after day for the past 8
>years, trying to make _medical_ sense of it all. And there is
>not one sign of any such _medical_ thought processes. But if
>this is just another dumbass hoax by a non-MD layperson then one
>would expect no realistic sounding clinical descriptions, no
>medical terminology, no sign of a real physician's diagnostic
>mindset. In fact a lay hoaxer most likely would not even know
>what "diagnosis" means.

Bravo, Brad...

This "report" is akin to that by the "astronomer" from Kwazu-Natal
who stated Venus was mistaken for a UFO, when in fact Venus was
below the horizon at the time of the sighting... among other
unscientific ruminations.

So many experts, so little expertise.

Kyle King








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:03:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:14:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:36:18 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>Notwithstanding the above, I should make it clear that most of
>the abductees with whom I've worked contacted me after my tour
>of duty on the British Government's UFO project. From memory, no
>more than half a dozen abductees contacted me while I was on the
>'UFO Desk'.

What exactly do you mean by "the British Government's UFO
Project"? You seem to be implying that this was a special
operation that was set up purely to investigate and report on
UFOs, quite separate from the routine MoD job that a number of
other people have done before and after your spell at the desk.
Perhaps you could tell us a little more about this 'Project'?

--

John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:12:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:16:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:42:31 -0400
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

<snip>

>After all, should someone think himself or herself to have a
>truly convincing case, who would want to risk the possibility of
>being quarantined in biological isolation for an appreciable
>period of time as were the returned lunar astronauts.  :)

Kind of interesting, isn't it, that with all the abductions and
contacts reported, including MIBs which appear to be thinly
disguised ETs, and close contact with ETs recovered from
crashes, we _haven't_ had major, decimating epidemics from the
contacts.

The only case I heard where alien contact caused serious (in
this case fatal) illness was where someone (sorry, I forget the
specifics) carried a dead alien for a distance and died of
"septicemia" (generalized infection).


Eleanor White







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                        Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:29:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:18:48 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Hatch


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:12:56 EDT
>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

>>From: Mathieu - Paris <mfilms1.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:39:46 +0200
>>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Mathieu


>>[Non-Subscriber Post]

>>>http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=139&art_id=vn200407011101183
06C214932

>>>07-01-04  UFO Over Durban Captured On Video

>>>By Ayanda Mhlongo

>>Dear UFO UpDates Listers,

>>When I tried to see by myself, I was surprised. Venus was not
>>above the horizon. Thinking I could be wrong, because I am not
>>an astronomer nor university professor, I sent a mail to the
>>South African Astronomical Observatory, yesterday:

><snip>

>Merci Mathieu!

>It appears you've done the detective work that many have not.

Hello Greg, Mathieu:

Has anyone checked for Jupiter or other planets etc? Venus is
most often tossed out as a first lazy guess. The most
spectacular 'planet' I ever saw was a satellite re-entry.



Best

- Larry









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                    Disclosure Australia Announcement 15

From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:11:05 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:20:02 -0400
Subject: Disclosure Australia Announcement 15


Disclosure Australia Newsletter 14 has just been posted to the
web site at:

http://disclosure.freewebpage.org

Among the items there are:

*  The Project presents at the June 2004 national UFO conference

*  The Project visits RAAF base Edinburgh to start examining UFO
files

*  Mysterious lights in 1915!

*  We review our Strategic Plan

*  A summary and catalogue of RAAF UFO file 580/1/1 part 11
recently available.

--
The Australian UFO  Research
Network Disclosure Project

Auspiced by the
Australian UFO Research Network
PO Box 738, Beaudesert,
Queensland 4285
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn

Secretariat: the
Australian UFO Research Association
PO Box 786, North Adelaide,
South Australia 5006
http://disclosure.freewebpage.org/








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                       U.S. TV Alert - Fiction Series

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 19:24:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:21:52 -0400
Subject: U.S. TV Alert - Fiction Series


Read a favorable review of 'The 4400' in USA Today.

See: < http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2004-07-08-4400-movie_x.htm

"You think it's tough being taken? Try being returned.  That,
anyway, is the sci-fi problem posed by The 4400, a promising,
unprepossessing five-week series about the flip side of alien
abduction."

Terry


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
<fortean1.nul>






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                 Re: John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:33:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:24:56 -0400
Subject: Re: John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:58:38 EDT
>Subject: Re: John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO Connection

>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
>>Date: 7/8/2004 11:42:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Subj: UFO UpDate: John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO Connection

>>Source: Rense.Com

>http://www.rense.com/general54/kerryfo.htm

>>07-06-04

>>John Kerry's Office Building & The UFO Connection
>>by Robert Barrow

><snip>

>>The Russell Senate Office Building, is named after the late
>>Senator Richard Russell, whose UFO experience is legendary.

>>Russell (D-GA), as noted famously in reputable books and web
>>sites about UFOs, was the powerful chairman of the U.S. Armed
>>Services Committee who saw two UFOs during a visit to Russia in
>>1955.

>>See a detailed report here:

>http://www.rense.com/general42/tm_oct.htm

>>in This Month In UFO History, October 14, 1955 - US
>>Senators See Flying Saucers In Soviet Russia.

>>Apparently, Russell was subsequently advised by U.S.
>>government officials not to discuss his sighting and he
>>reluctantly admitted as much.

>If you actually read the CIA documents on the incident it is
>apparent that CIA Director Allen Dulles and his staff asked Sen.
>Russell not to publicly disclose his sightings of two disc-
>shaped objects taking off almost vertically one minute apart
>near Baku on Oct. 4, 1955. As it turns out there was an Army
>intelligence officer with Russell and a secret CIA Directorate
>of Plans (Clandestine Service) Foreign Intelligence (FI) Staff
>officer Reuben Efron posing as a "translator" all of whom were
>eyewitnesses with Russell (who probably did not know who Efron
>really was).

>At this time period the CIA was so fearful of post-Stalinist
>USSR that it did not yet have a "Moscow Station" within the US
>Embassy, so CIA clandestine officers could on;y travel through
>the country posing as nondescript visitors. All the more reason
>why Allen Dulles did not want Russell drawing more attention to
>the incident aside from the bizarre nature of the sightings
>themselves and how it might relate to the Cold War (was it all
>staged by the Russians? how could they technologically stage
>something like that out in the middle of desert nowhere and
>actually expect Russell to catch it? etc. etc.)

>>The Fund for UFO Research and Dr. Bruce Maccabee are
>>credited, fortunately, with gaining release of important documents
>>relating to this incident under the Freedom of Information Act,
>>but it was former Los Angeles aviation writer and newspaper
>>columnist Tom Towers who dramatically exposed the incident
>>publicly in the fifties simply by quoting Russell's statements,
>>in a letter to Towers, stating that he had been advised not to
>>discuss the matter.

><snip>

>>For those intent upon pleading with John Kerry for The Truth
>>About UFOs.....

><snip>

>In the interest of "Truth About UFOs" the Fund and Maccabee had
>nothing to do with the release of the CIA documents on the
>Russell incident and other matters in Dec 1978, in fact the Fund
>did not yet exist.

>Joel Carpenter had an outstanding analysis and detailed
>description of this incident and all of its ramifications, but
>his web site is gone. Try a Google search for the cached copies.
>Among other things, sharp-eyed Joel noticed that Francis Gary
>Powers' 1960 U-2 flight seemed to be targeted to fly right over
>the Russell-CIA sighting location near Baku.

Hi Brad,

Fascinating, indeed. Thanks for that additional insight into an
important case.


Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

             Re: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:44:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:26:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:12:08 -0700
>Subject: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday Night

>Source: KTRE Channel 9.nul

>http://www.ktre.com/Global/story.asp?S11752&nav=2FH5OZC9

>07/07/04 - East Texas

>Reports of Object "Falling from the Sky" Wednesday Night

>The East Texas News received numerous phone calls Wednesday
>night from viewers who reported seeing something "falling from
>the sky." Local law enforcement agencies also received calls from
>citizens claiming to have seen something out of the ordinary in
>the night sky.

>KTRE Chief Meteorologist Lee Ringer says these sights were not
>the result of a weather event but were more than likely a meteor
>passing through the earth's atmosphere. Officials with the North
>American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) report to the Federal
>Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) that a heightened period of
>meteor showers was expected to begin Wednesday night and
>continue through the month.

>The National Weather Service says similar reports of objects
>"falling from the sky" were received from Witchita Falls, Texas
>to Little Rock, Arkansas.

Obviously the answer is probably a meteor. That being said,
just for fun, lets look at this the way the skeptibunkers would
look at a UFO sighting.

Had these witnesses claimed to have seen a craft under
intelligent control (pick your UFO size, shape and config at
this point) the skeptibunkers would have been out of their minds
tossing out such stories as Venus, Swamp Gas, Oil Well fires,
Hoax, weather balloon, misidentification of...  and so on. We
would have also heard how eye witness testimony is not reliable,
and why any eye witness testimony to something out of the
ordinary should be disregarded for many various reasons.

Yet, an apparent meteor goes in over Texas and these same
blathering, dithering, skeptibunkers are strangely silent. They
accept the testimony of the witnesses without question, or
without all of the usual blathering, without the usual tossing
out of various explainations and so forth.

Gee, isn't their something wrong with the skeptibunker picture?
:)

Cheers,

Robert







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                    Re: Daytime UFOs Video Taped - Taylor

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:59:01 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:28:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Daytime UFOs Video Taped - Taylor


Hi List,

Just to inform you that still images and video clip of the July
8th. daytime sighting are now available to download. This video
clip will only be available for a short time then removed.

The clip will show you how the 'cluster' UFOs move around while
in flight. The red object is very interesting. Frame grabs from
the video show the attached dark spheres and enhancements show
the energy surrounding the objects.

Clip size - 5Mb (43 seconds) in Windows Media Video format.

http://theozfactor.cjb.net/july2004.htm

Your responses welcomed.


Regards,

Barry Taylor








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                      Australian UFO Conference Summary

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:21:29 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:30:11 -0400
Subject: Australian UFO Conference Summary


For a summary and review of the recent Australian National UFO
Conference, please go to:

http://www.acufos.asn.au/about/conference.html


Sheryl Gottschall








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:49:52 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:33:28 -0400
Subject: Re:  Creatures With No Business Here! - Hatch


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:30:45 -0700
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:23:57 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>>From: Geoffrey Richardson <geoff.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:17:15 +0100
>>>Subject: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>>Regardless of your opinions of the Santilli Alien Autopsy Film,
>>>you will find Ed Gerhman's article a fascinating account of his
>>>research and investigations into this controversial subject.

>>>Read "Creatures With No Business Here" at: "The (authentic) WHY? Files"

>>>http://www.thewhyfiles.net

>>While I am one of those who was active in the AA investigation
>>early on, my concern with Ed's conclusions is that he bases his
>>later theories and conclusions on statements and drawings that
>>are of little actual value (unless you want to believe in them).

>>Of course, that's a problem for the entire field.

>Steven,

>I really don't understand your objections to my research.
>You'll need to be more specific. You know from your own
>experience that the cameraman gave a set of directions to the
>site. You followed them yourself; and that's what I did. You
>must have "believed" that you might find something.

>Folks don't go wandering around this stretch of desert on a
>lark. What would you have done if you had found the site we
>discovered, covered with burned vegetation and blue, glass-like
>material, just as the cameraman described?

<snip>

I must be missing something here. Is anyone suggesting that
'burnt vegetation' would be in evidence some 57 years after the
original events (crash retrieval etc.) dating from 1947?

I would think that any traces of burnt vegetation would have
blown away, been scoured away in a sandstorm, washed away in the
rare torrential rains etc. long long since.

Blue glassy minerals might be another matter.


Just curious

- Larry Hatch









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:57:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:36:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:57:42 +0100
>Subject: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>Perhaps it would be useful if one of the psychologists on this
>List could compile a list of apparent faults in the McNally et
>al. paper, together with points on which clarification is
>needed, and send it to him?

I originally said I wouldn't do this, but I have just emailed
Richard McNally. The text of the email is included below, and
if he agrees, I'll forward any response to the List.

Cathy

---------------------


Dear Dr McNally,

You may be interested that a vigorous, but on the whole good-
natured, discussion on your abduction trauma paper is taking
place at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/

The discussion is, in general, supportive of your research. A
member of that List did however suggest writing to you with a
list of points that could perhaps do with some clarification.

My health doesn't permit me to going rummaging through medical
libraries at the moment, but I found the following page on the
Tellegen Absorption Scale, on John Kihlstrom's website:

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~kihlstrm.TAS.htm

Towards the bottom of this page I found the following:

"No interpretive norms are available for the scale, but
experience with many large college-student samples indicates
that the average subject scores about 20 on the dichotomous
version, with a standard deviation of about 6 (Glisky et al.,
1991)."

In your Psychological Science paper, you report scores on the
TAS, with a mean 21.6, standard deviation 6.0 for the abductee
sample, and a mean of 9.6, SD 6.1 for the community control
sample.

Of course, it's slightly ambiguous what Kihlstrom means by
"average subject scores" above, and college students are not
necesssarily representative of the general population, but on
the face of it, it would appear from your data that it is the
abductee sample which is normative on this instrument and the
control sample which is non-normative.  This is presumably the
opposite of what your apparent interpretation of the data would
appear to predict.

Do you know of anything which might account for this? Could you
perhaps expand on how you recruited your community sample?

I'm also a little puzzled by your use of parametric tests on
data that are not, apparently, known to be normally distributed.
Could you perhaps explain your rationale for this?

I'm copying this email to the UFOupdates mailing list, and with
your permission, would like to forward any response from you to
that list as well.

Many thanks,

Catherine Reason








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                  Hundreds Witness Large UFO Over Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:51:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:39:02 -0400
Subject: Hundreds Witness Large UFO Over Argentina


Source: Diario "El Tribuno" de Salta - Argentina
Date: July 10, 2004

Cachi, at 19:30 hrs on Thursday

Hundreds Witness Large UFO

"It was perfectly plate-shaped", said the director of FM San
Jose

Hundreds of people in Cachi's main square, among them artists
participating in an art fair and were creating sculptures and
paintings on site, saw a large unidentified flying object (UFO)
that crossed the skies over Cachi on Thursday night.

"It was truly impressive. I'd heard people say that this
phenomenon was recurrent in the region, but I never thought I'd
have the privilege to see such a sharp, clear and disturbing
sighting, since I'm unable to find a logical explanation for the
phenomenon I've just seen with my own eyes," said Javier
Rodriguez, the recently appointed director of FM San Jose.

Holding a degree in communication arts and national
broadcasting, Rodriguez, 29, stated that "the time was
approximately 19:30 hours and we were chatting in the town
square with the host of one of the station's programs--Antonio
Zuleta--who has become internationally famous due to his UFO
films in the area."

"And we just happened to be discussing the subejct when an
artisan standing under the shelter of the local museum, some
meters away from us, told us he'd seen something, raising his
index finger skyward," he says.

"It ws a fantastic vision: a perfect disk of bright luminous
intensity, moving as it issued forth red flashes from North to
Southeast at a prodigious speed, changing directions in a
startling manner, gyrating at impossible angles for any vehicle
known to us," explained the expert.

"From our position," Rodriguez added, "we can say that it had
the size of a dessert plate. In other words, some 50 cm across,
which makes me dismiss the possibility that it was a satellite,
which are as small as a star and follow a fixed trajectory and
constant spped. I cannot say, obviously, that it was a
spacecraft from another world or from our own, but I can tell
you that it was a phenomenon as inexplicable as it was
interesting."

On the other hand, Antonio Zuleta, consulted by El Tribuno,
said: "there were so many witnesses to the event that the debate
about alien civilizations was a subject of lengthy discussions
at coffeehouses, restaurants and other establishments in town,
which is now filled with tourists, many hoping to have their own
sighting."

Fortunately, it occurred at peak hours on an afternoon with a
clear sky, as is customary [in Cachi]," he emphasized.

Translation (c) 2004. Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 10

                Re: Does NASA Publish Inverted Data? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 06:37:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:51:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Does NASA Publish Inverted Data? - Hatch


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:42:41 -0500
>Subject: Re: Does NASA Publish Inverted Data?

>>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:34:00 +0100
>>Subject: Does NASA Publish Inverted Data?

>>Extracted enlargement;

>>http://www.colsweb.com/marsmelt2.gif

>>from

>>http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2004/07/07/index.html

>>showing Mars Carbon Dioxide Ice Pole melt.

>>Has NASA got the number upside down!?

>>Maybe as the ice melts to a greater depth two more 6's will be
>>revealed? Letter hight is approx 70 feet ( 23 metres ).

>>col

>Two _more_ "6's"? I don't see the first "6" yet. I bet if I
>search the spackle on my ceiling long enough I could find
>several "6's".


Hi Terry:

Maybe somebody just flipped over the 'negative'. That happens
all the time in the darkroom. Some pretty lady passes by and the
negative will flip over all by itself.

"What am I doing depicting a fat guy and his dumb kids with a
bunch of trout on a string by mosquito lake Wisconsin?" it must
ask itself.

I'm no photographer, but suspect that anyone who processes his
own film will agree. Negatives flip like pancakes and only the
positives give a clue which side landed up on top.  Oh sure,
there are special orientation marks, but who can read those in a
darkroom?

Best wishes

- Larry [burp!]

PS: My favorite hamburger joint delivers the goods with the
patties upside down. Why? Ask the devil's grandmother.











   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                 STARGATE Declassified Government Documents

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:08:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:35:51 -0400
Subject: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents


I've recently acquired what is most likely the largest
collection of declassified CIA documents regarding the STARGATE
Remote Viewing program.

This collection totals 14 CD Roms of documentation in both OCR'd
text format as well as .tif format, for a total of over 10,000
pages of documents spanning 20+ years of the remote viewing
program. Each CD includes an index to the files included on them
in .dat format.

In due time I will make these indexes available for review at
michiganufos.com but I've yet to decide how to make the files
themselves available to the public.

It will be interesting to see how this documentation stacks up
to what has been disclosed by those who have chosen to go public
with their involvement in this program.


Todd Lemire

http://www.michiganufos.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                  Re: Conscious Abductees Question - Lemire

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:32:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:53:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Conscious Abductees Question - Lemire


>From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:57:56 -0400
>Subject: Re: Conscious Abductees Question

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 19:58:21 EDT
>>Subject: Conscious Abductees Question

>>I'm looking for any abductee data where the abductee or
>>abductees were conscious during their experience and did not
>>have to undergo hypnosis to glean data.

>>Also, any statistics from any of you researchers on the
>>percentages of reported abductions wherein the victim was
>>conscious during their abduction (s) please.

>Here is info from my little "Abduction Millennium Project":

>Most of my abduction memories are in the form of:

>Dreams 13.5%

>More than dreams, but not fully conscious events 25.2%

>Physical sensations that precede the event, but not the
>abduction itself 8.1%

>Fully conscious memories of bits and pieces of the event 23.0%

>Fully conscious memories of significant segments of the event
>13.1%

>Hypnotically-retrieved memories 5.0%

>"Other" 12.2%

>N = 222

>This info is good only through about 1997, as I have not had
>occasion to enter the data from subsequent surveys that have
>been turned in since then.


Brenda,

Although I'm at work and can't access your website I find your
stats very interesting as well as shining a light so to speak on
where we, as researchers and investigators, should focus a large
portion of our attention in regards to the abduction phenomena.

In your post, above, you mention that 13.5% occur in the dream
state, and 25.2% occur while not fully conscious. This is
slightly over 38% of abductions occurring in a state other than
full consciousness as compared to 36% entailing fully conscious
memories.

Has there been any serious research done on the relationship
between abductions and the subconscious?

With such a high percentage occurring in a subconscious state of
mind I would tend to believe there would be a stronger focus by
the abduction community towards this area of study.


Todd Lemire
http://www.michiganufos.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

             Re: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 06:51:41 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:56:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:32:48 -0500
>Subject: Re: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday Night

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:12:08 -0700
>>Subject: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday Night

>>Source: KTRE Channel 9.nul
>>http://www.ktre.com/Global/story.asp?S11752&nav=2FH5OZC9

>>07/07/04 - East Texas

>>Reports of Object "Falling from the Sky" Wednesday Night

>>The East Texas News received numerous phone calls Wednesday
>>night from viewers who reported seeing something "falling from
>>the sky." Local law enforcement agencies also received calls from
>>citizens claiming to have seen something out of the ordinary in
>>the night sky.

>>KTRE Chief Meteorologist Lee Ringer says these sights were not
>>the result of a weather event but were more than likely a meteor
>>passing through the earth's atmosphere. Officials with the North
>>American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) report to the Federal
>>Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) that a heightened period of
>>meteor showers was expected to begin Wednesday night and
>>continue through the month.

>A cop in one of Dallas' suburbs (Rockwall I think?) caught the
>bolide on his cruiser camera during a traffic stop. I was very
>bright and seemed to "flame out" then re-ignite. Very strange
>but it was indeed a meteor. No doubt there are rock hounds out
>trying to find fragments as we speak.


Hi Terry: I must agree.

At last something I know something about, plasmas.

The 'fourth state of matter' is seen by everyone but understood
by few. A candle flame is a plasma, so is the rarified and
energized gas inside a neon tube (like the ones at Joe's bar). A
plasma is simply an ordinary gas, energized until it can conduct
electricity and/or glow in the dark.

In the old days of the semiconductor industry, is was a big
challenge to create plasmas that did _not_ flicker! They needed
steady plasmas to sputter metals onto their new devices, or
strip off unwanted thin films in predictable ways.

So here comes a bolide that winks out and re-ignites?

Well shazam and goddam*


Best wishes

- Larry


* Esperanto for ring-a-ding-ding.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Kelly Freeman <Khfflsciufo.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:03:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:34:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:33:50 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:46:44 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <nids.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:33:52 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

><snip>

>>>My hunch is that the data in this paper will surprise many
>>>Psychological Science readers in the psychology research
>>>community, since it greatly undermines their common perception
>>>that abductees are merely attention seekers, charlatans etc who
>>>want nothing more than to get their 15 minutes of fame. The data
>>>in Dr. McNally's paper are saying that the responses of PTSD
>>>victims and abductees are almost indistinguishable and will
>>>therefore demolish some commonly-held stereotypes. I believe
>>>that Dr. McNally's paper may stimulate members of the
>>>psychological research community to take the next research step:
>>>to use the tools of fMRI and other brain-imaging techniques to
>>>take these (to their readers, very surprising) data to the next
>>>level. That is precisely what is needed in this field.

>>>As such, I believe Dr. McNally's paper is a positive contribution.

>>I strongly agree with Colm's comments on this and think McNally
>>et al. have been unfairly criticised over their paper. Their
>>methodology has presumably passed muster in order to have been
>>published in Psychological Science, and they seem to have simply
>>gone where their data took them.

<snip>

>This is odd: they are not trying to understand the abduction
>experience. They have simply decided that it cannot be true.

<snip>

>The ones who should be shot down are the ones with bias,
>preconceived ideas and whose minds are already made up?

Michael and List,

I think it would be appropriate to point out that McNally has a
relatively new book out, Remembering Trauma, that IMO, renders
the PTSD study invalid as an objective approach towards
understanding the alien abduction 'syndrome'. I haven't read the
book - yet - but I intend to and perhaps those of us interested
in this thread should read it also. The reviews for McNally's
book can be seen at:

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/reviews/MCNREM_R.html

The PTSD study, rather than spur the psychology/psychiatry
professions into researching further into the alien abduction
problem, would instead have the opposite effect for those who
have read McNally's book, ridiculing those who claim to have
been 'kidnapped by space aliens' and pointing out the
conclusions made in McNally's book.

I am not optimistic about what the final outcome will be. It
would be interesting to find out if anyone on Harvard's staff of
scientists/professors, or even McNally's team, have done a study
on the psychological profile of witnesses who have had UFO
sightings - John Mack excluded.

As a final note, I don't know about anybody else, but I consider
the terms "kidnapped by space aliens" or just "space aliens"
demeaning in nature and we should encourage a more objective
description, such as 'unknown entities'.


Kelly Freeman








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:21:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:43:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Hatch


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:04:54 -0300
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Geoffrey Richardson <geoff.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:50:34 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:23:57 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>>>From: Geoffrey Richardson <geoff.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:17:15 +0100
>>>>Subject: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>>>Read "Creatures With No Business Here" at:
>>>>http://www.thewhyfiles.net [ you guess the page -LH]

>>>After about 45 seconds of looking, I didn't see a quick link
>>>to the article you mention.You might want to highlight that for
>>>those of us who don't have time to search.

>>Sorry about this but if you run down the file list the "topic"
>>will highlight itself.

>Like Steve, I went there. Couldn't find it. Found the Shuttle
>stuff and while trying to download that my Mac locked up. Had to
>do an illegal shutdown [now the Mac police will be after me] and
>reboot. That never happened before on your site.

>Anyway, why not just post the actual URL? Is it some agreement
>you have with the advertizers?


Hello Don,

Good to hear you say it first.

I don't know the exact name, its not exactly "bait-and-switch",
its more like 'Advertise 1/4 priced Scotch Whisky and hide it
so the yahoos have to dig thru the rest of the merchandise
first.'

In short, someone is spamming this List, and I find that highly
offensive. This isn't the first time.

"Sorry about this but if you run down the file list the 'topic'
will highlight itself."

Yeah yeah yeah. And here are the 10-cent flashlight batteries,
as advertised, but underneath the overpriced halloween costumes.

The "sorry for..." gimmick took up something like 100 typed
characters. The direct URL to the page in question is some small
fraction of that most likely.

I don't enjoy seeing our intelligence insulted in this rather
obvious and juvenile manner, and suspect that I'm not alone in
this.


- Larry Hatch








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                       Re: Tom, Dick & Kerry - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:18:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:46:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Tom, Dick & Kerry - Kaeser


>From: Robert Grass <RDGRASS.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 03:36:45 EDT
>Subject: Re: Tom, Dick & Kerry

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:00:29 -0700
>>Subject: Tom, Dick & Kerry

><snip>

>>The Democrats would say Kerry favors amnesty for illegal aliens.
>>So does Bush, the GOP would counter. But what would you do with
>>all those spaceships?

>The only problem with that scenario is that Kerry would wait for
>decades of UN resolutions and then make sure the Russian,
>French, German and Canadian governments were behind him before
>doing anything.

>We would have one hell of a traffic jam of spaceships by then!


Actually, I believe that those seeking amnesty are granted
access to the U.S. as long as they reach U.S. soil (which the
primary reason that boats with refugees are stopped before the
reach land if possible).

Our amnesty regulations are not subject to approval by any other
Nations or the U.N., but if we decided to take them to task for
their treatment of U.S. citizens, I believe a Kerry
Administration would seek approval from other Nations that might
be impacted before taking any unilateral action, while the Bush
Administration would probably... well, nevermind.

This becomes too political and the discussion really belongs
elsewhere.


Steve








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                        Re: Tom, Dick & Kerry - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:19:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:51:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Tom, Dick & Kerry - Clark


>From: Robert Grass <RDGRASS.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 03:36:45 EDT
>Subject: Re: Tom, Dick & Kerry

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:00:29 -0700
>>Subject: Tom, Dick & Kerry

>>The Democrats would say Kerry favors amnesty for illegal aliens.
>>So does Bush, the GOP would counter. But what would you do with
>>all those spaceships?

>The only problem with that scenario is that Kerry would wait for
>decades of UN resolutions and then make sure the Russian,
>French, German and Canadian governments were behind him before
>doing anything.

>We would have one hell of a traffic jam of spaceships by then!

After the horrendous calamity Bush brought us into - on what
just about everybody except Dick Cheney now acknowledges to be
phony claims and charges - that traffic jam of spaceships sounds
pretty damn good to me. Let's hope it starts on November 2.


Jerry Clark









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                        Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:08:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:53:29 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Boone


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:21:40 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

>According to my software, Venus was well below the horizon at
>4:00 am in Durban, S. Africa (Lat. S 29:53:00 Long. E 30:53:00)
>and didn't rise until just before 5.00 am

>Az: 59:41:10; Alt: 13:10:16
>RA: 4:34:52; Dec: 18:12:55
>Ecliptic Lon: 69:47:15; Lat: -3:44:33
>Galactic Lon: 179:20:44; Lat: -19:26:09
>Rising: Jun 27, 2004; 4:49:57 A.M.
>Transit: Jun 27, 2004; 10:08:12 A.M.
>Setting: Jun 27, 2004; 3:26:35 P.M.
>Phase: 10.7%, Phase angle: 141.74=F8
>Apparent Diameter: 49.12"
>Distance from Observer: 0.340 AU


Wow! Thanks to Terry Groff too!

That's the second set of numbers that can be analyzed.

Numbers and statistics are what it's all about! This puppy is
almost ready to put to bed, so let's dig up some more numbers
and check them with the lady's testimony and then fork those
numbers over to that newspaper that ran the 'Venus' story.

We'll see how they respond and report. Since the egghead they
spotlighted in their story didn't provide stats, let's see him
do so.

It's either Venus or it ain't. If it ain't, the adventure
continues.


Best,

Greg









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

               Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:13:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:56:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:22:30 -0400
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:30:45 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>I really don't understand your objections to my research.
>>You'll need to be more specific. You know from your own
>>experience that the cameraman gave a set of directions to the
>>site. You followed them yourself; and that's what I did. You
>>must have "believed" that you might find something.

>>Folks don't go wandering around this stretch of desert on a
>>lark. What would you have done if you had found the site we
>>discovered, covered with burned vegetation and blue, glass-like
>>material, just as the cameraman described?

>We've been through this before, but I'll briefly make a comment.

>You've gone to a site described in a document that I have no
>reason to believe is anything more than Ray Santilli's
>imagination. In other words, you've taken a description and
>used that to find a location that appears to fit the description
>and looked for anomolies to support your contention. This is not
>scientific and of limited value to the field, IMO.

Steve,

That is not the way I approached this. I studied maps before I
ventured out. I had a good idea of where I was going because I
did my homework. But I had no idea if I could get to where I
wanted to go. You know from your own experience that this is a
desolate area. Ray has never been to New Mexico. These
directions could _never_ have come from his imagination. They
are far too specific.

When a person gives specific directions to a remote area that is
also specifically described, in detail, and those directions prove
to be accurate in every detail, then I think we can assume that
the person supplying the directions has been to the location in
question.

>Yes, I went to Socorro to look for a site using the alleged
>cameraman's description and found that no roads (then or now)
>fit the description as had been laid down initially. You've
>found a site that you believe to be the crash site mentioned,
>and Bob Shell (who doesn't even care to get further involved in
>the AA "film" any further) also has a site that he believes is
>the one mentioned, but it's no where near yours. Michael
>Hesemann (sp?) has another site identified, and so on and so on.

First of all, both of them are not in the least familiar with
the desert or the terrain and wouldn't have the slightest idea
of what they were seeing, even if the site jumped up and bit
them on the butt. I visited both of their sites and neither fits
the parameters established by the cameraman but most
importantly, neither site has the blue material.

>I know from my reading and discussions with the principal
>investigators that the cameraman provided a description of the
>site to Ray Santillin on the phone, which was then drawn by an
>artist from Ray's description.

This is not my understanding and I doubt your information. Ray
has not told how the drawing originated. And your logic is a
little fuzzy.

If the cameraman is a figment of Ray's imagination, then Ray
must have created the drawings (or was he talking to himself on
the phone?). If so, then he has some very strange and awesome
powers that allow him to create drawings that match in every
detail the site and the terrain of a patch of desert he's never
visited.

>The artist never spoke with the
>cameraman, and the cameraman never looked at or approved the
>actual drawing. So what is the actual basis of your site.....
>Ray's description?

No, the cameraman's description. Ray and the cameraman are not
one and the same person. The cameraman has been there. The proof
he's been there depends on rhe directions and description and
drawings he provided. Ray has never been to New Mexico. How
could this happen?

>You believe in what Ray has provided, but
>most of those in the field do not.

That's the sad part. Most have not even looked at the AA or its
history. They've relied on the "authorities" to tell them what
to believe. I've tried to change that, but it's a struggle. What
I've learned from this exercise in futility is that many of you
are dumb as stumps and couldn't follow a scientific discussion
if your lives depended on it.

>While I find the AA "film"
>to be an interesting subject worthy of further study when
>information becomes available, I have no illusions that Ray has
>told everything he knows and he has been found to be dishonest
>in some respects.

He has not been dishonest with me.

>As I said, my concerns with regard to your claim is that the
>foundation upon which it is based is highly suspect and thus any
>conclusions are also suspect.

I don't agree. Verifying the AA crash site will turn out to be
an important ufological event.


Ed







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                  List Off-Line As Of 18:00 Eastern Tonight

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:21:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:21:37 -0400
Subject: List Off-Line As Of 18:00 Eastern Tonight




Gentle Subscribers & Readers,

The time has come for the Annual UFO UpDates hiatus, which, as
in years past, will last for a week - from tonight at 18:00
Eastern in North America, until next Sunday, at around the same
time.

Again this year, I ask that you hold responses to List-posts
from this one on, until next Sunday. There is a staggering
amount of Spam coming in here on a daily basis, and it will make
the job of flushing it, on my return, easier.

There's a highly interesting story brewing, that may break this
week. Should it do so, it will posted, to both the List and the
Archive, by a trusted friend who will post as:

Assistant Moderator <assistmod.nul>

Its not earth-shattering news, but will need to be circulated
immediately.

In all likelihood you'll receive the details before I.

I trust this week will not put a crimp in your ufological
reading,


Errol Bruce-Knapp
Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                        Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:14:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:26:26 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Boone


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:07:41 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

>Hold on Greg!

>Let us not invade another country before we are sure of our
>facts this time!

>Mathieu's conclusion that it could not be Venus is wrong because
>it is based on a false assumption (Venus was _not_ below the
>horizon for the duration of this UFO sighting) and does not take
>into account all the other facts - a scientific sin that
>distinguishes bebunkers from critical thinking investigators of
>UFO sightings.

<snip>

Noted Nick,

Yet to bolster your obsevations you'll need to match the numbers
provided by Mattieu and Mr. Groff of this List. They've both
provided statistics that can be examined without speculation or
assumption.

This is a neat opportunity for us all if you would contact any
of the astronomical data available to see if your data
corresponds with theirs or conflicts.

The point here is 'where' was Venus at the time of the sighting.


Best,

Greg









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                        Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:21:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:28:47 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Groff


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:07:41 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:12:56 EDT
>>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

>>>From: Mathieu - Paris <mfilms1.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:39:46 +0200
>>>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Mathieu

>>>[Non-Subscriber Post]

>>>>http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=139&art_id=vn20040701110118
306C214932

><snip>

>>>When I tried to see by myself, I was surprised. Venus was not
>>>above the horizon. Thinking I could be wrong, because I am not
>>>an astronomer nor university professor, I sent a mail
>>>to the South African Astronomical Observatory, yesterday:

><snip>

>>It appears you've done the detective work that many have not.

>>So simple yet so powerful.

>>We should all of us contact the newspapers that carried the
>>'Venus' explanation and chastise them for not doing the work a
>>responsible press should have done as Mathieu has done.

>>Let's all us Yanks go to S. Africa and beat up the guys who ran
>>that Venus story :)

>Hold on Greg!

>Let us not invade another country before we are sure of our
>facts this time!

>Mathieu's conclusion that it could not be Venus is wrong because
>it is based on a false assumption (Venus was _not_ below the
>horizon for the duration of this UFO sighting) and does not take
>into account all the other facts - a scientific sin that
>distinguishes bebunkers from critical thinking investigators of
>UFO sightings.

I distilled this data from that morning.

Elevations of Venus as viewed from Durnam, S. Africa
(Lat. S 29:53:00 Long. E 30:53:00) taken in 15 minutes increments
beginning at 3:45 am local time and ending at 6:00 am local time

Local Time: Altitude (degrees):
3:45 am      Alt: -14:04:40
4:00 am      Alt: -10:54:48
4:15 am      Alt: -07:46:25
4:30 am      Alt: -04:39:45
4:45 am      Alt: -01:35:00
5:00 am      Alt:  01:27:35
5:15 am      Alt:  04:27:43
5:30 am      Alt:  07:25:07
5:45 am      Alt:  10:19:26
6:00 am      Alt:  13:10:16

Venus rose at about 4:50 am

If her sighting took place before 4:50 am it could not possibly
have been Venus.

If after 4:50 am then it could have possibly been Venus.

What time did her sighting actually take place? All I know is
she woke "just before 4:00 am" and was watching TV when she
noticed the light.

Terry








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                        Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:14:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:31:43 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Groff


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:29:37 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:12:56 EDT
>>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

>>>From: Mathieu - Paris <mfilms1.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:39:46 +0200
>>>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Mathieu

>>>[Non-Subscriber Post]

>>>>http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=139&art_id=vn20040701110118
306C214932

>>>>07-01-04  UFO Over Durban Captured On Video

>>>>By Ayanda Mhlongo

>>>Dear UFO UpDates Listers,

>>>When I tried to see by myself, I was surprised. Venus was not
>>>above the horizon. Thinking I could be wrong, because I am not
>>>an astronomer nor university professor, I sent a mail to the
>>>South African Astronomical Observatory, yesterday:

>><snip>

>>Merci Mathieu!

>>It appears you've done the detective work that many have not.

>Hello Greg, Mathieu:

>>Has anyone checked for Jupiter or other planets etc? Venus is
>>most often tossed out as a first lazy guess. The most
>>spectacular 'planet' I ever saw was a satellite re-entry.


Hi Larry

According to my software
Venus rose at 4:50 A.M.
Jupiter rose at 10:50 A.M.
Saturn rose at 7:32 A.M.
Mars rose at 8:40 A.M.

Sunrise was at 6:53 A.M.
Moonrise was at 12:22 P.M.

Terry







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                      Re: U.S. TV Alert Fiction Series

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:34:41 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:33:49 -0400
Subject: Re: U.S. TV Alert Fiction Series


Just a reminder. That new USA Network series starts tomorrow
night (Sunday, July 11) at 8pm Central. However, it comes on
several times this week, so just check your listings. :-)


Read a favorable review of 'The 4400' in USA Today.

See: http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2004-07-08-4400-movie_x.htm

"You think it's tough being taken? Try being returned. That,
anyway, is the sci-fi problem posed by The 4400, a promising,
unprepossessing five-week series about the flip side of alien
abduction."

Terry


-- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

               Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:49:48 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:37:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:49:52 -0700
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

<snip>

>I must be missing something here. Is anyone suggesting that
>'burnt vegetation' would be in evidence some 57 years after the
>original events (crash retrieval etc.) dating from 1947?

Larry,

Yes, the desert vegetation changes very slowly. The Walnut trees
and the cottonwood tree are at least 100 years old. The burn and
scorch marks are apparent and noticeable but seem somewhat
weathered, as you'd expect. These trees are still alive but the
heat damage clearly seen.

>I would think that any traces of burnt vegetation would have
>blown away, been scoured away in a sandstorm, washed away in the
>rare torrential rains etc. long long since.

The immediate area only gets a few inches of rain a year and
sometimes, nothing at all. The wind is a factor but hasn't
erased the evidence. I would say that this area hasn't changed
much in the last 57 years. The biggest land modifications are
caused by the cattle that wander around the site. The
cristobalite is impervious to alteration.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                         Re: Venus Footage - Lemire

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:26:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:39:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Venus Footage - Lemire



Regarding the recent discussions concerning Venus I've got some
short video clips concerning the Cadillac, MI Venus IFO that was
mentioned on this List in May.

It's amazing what a digital zoom can do to a planet!

These video clips are in .wmv format to save space so you'll
have to save them to your hard drive first and then play them
using Windows Media Player.

http://www.michiganufos.com/cadillac.html

See the May post concerning the Cadillac report on UFO UpDates
here:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/may/m07-013.shtml


Todd Lemire
http://www.michiganufos.com









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                        Video Report: Y2K Encounters

From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:42:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:40:54 -0400
Subject: Video Report: Y2K Encounters


A 5-minute video summary of Y2K UFO sightings from Ohio is
freely available online in a .wmv format (will open with Windows
Media Player version 9). This video report was first used as a
'roll-in' on a June, 2000 edition of "UFO Update: LIVE!"
produced by Bob Leibold of Natural Light Productions. This 5-
minute segment is produced by Kenny Young and narrated by John
Stephenson, featuring Ohio State MUFON Director Bill Jones and
an excellent cast of actors for dramatic re-enactments.

Special thanks to Sean Feeney for uploading and hosting the
video.

For low bandwidth/dial-up computers, click on:

http://www.ufounderground.net/submitted/kenny/ufoupdate/UFO_UPDATE_Y2K_Encounter
s_56k.wmv

For high bandwidth/Cable/DSL users, click on:

http://www.ufounderground.net/submitted/kenny/ufoupdate/UFO_UPDATE_Y2K_Encounter
s_DSL.wmv








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:12:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:38:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:03:40 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:36:18 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>Notwithstanding the above, I should make it clear that most of
>>the abductees with whom I've worked contacted me after my tour
>>of duty on the British Government's UFO project. From memory, no
>>more than half a dozen abductees contacted me while I was on the
>>'UFO Desk'.

>What exactly do you mean by "the British Government's UFO
>Project"? You seem to be implying that this was a special
>operation that was set up purely to investigate and report on
>UFOs, quite separate from the routine MoD job that a number of
>other people have done before and after your spell at the desk.
>Perhaps you could tell us a little more about this 'Project'?

John,

What I mean by "The British Government's UFO Project" is the
work done officially to research and investigate UFOs. The lead
for this work has always been with the Ministry of Defence and
the Department has been looking into UFO sightings since 1950.
As you say, various other people have been involved in this work
both before and after my tour of duty. I certainly didn't mean
to imply that there are two parallel projects. There aren't.
Part of the problem is that various people have described the
MOD's work here in different ways. References have been made to
"the UFO desk", while others use the name of the different
sections that have led on this work over the years: S4, S6, DS8,
Sec(AS), DAS, etc.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                     Re: Daytime UFOs Video Taped - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:28:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:52:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Daytime UFOs Video Taped - King


>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:59:01 +1000
>Subject: Re: Daytime UFOs Video Taped

>Just to inform you that still images and video clip of the July
>8th. daytime sighting are now available to download. This video
>clip will only be available for a short time then removed.

>The clip will show you how the 'cluster' UFOs move around while
>in flight. The red object is very interesting. Frame grabs from
>the video show the attached dark spheres and enhancements show
>the energy surrounding the objects.

>Clip size - 5Mb (43 seconds) in Windows Media Video format.

>http://theozfactor.cjb.net/july2004.htm

>Your responses welcomed.


Very compelling video, Barry! My first impression was balloons,
but the video makes it appear that the objects are stationary
and spinning about a regular axis. If I may ask a few additional
questions...

Is the downloadable video we see the full frame of the video
camera, or was the download altered to "stabilize" the object in
the frame?

Does the video camera used include "image stabilization"
features, and were they in use.

What is the significance of the "time stamp" visible in a few
frames around 42 seconds into the clip?

If the raw footage is available in digital form, is it possible
to provide it?

The actual context from which the object(s) were viewed would
make further analysis much more fruitful.

Congratulations on some very intriguing video!


Kyle King







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                             Re: Toutatis - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:42:26 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:54:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Toutatis - Pope


>From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 17:34:31 +0100
>Subject: Re: Toutatis

>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:19:47 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
>>Subject: Re: Toutatis

>>If the crater-like depressions on comets and asteroids were
>>created by eruptions of the same volatile materials present in
>>both, then another such eruption on Toutatis as it moves in
>>closer to the Sun may deflect the asteroid enough from its
>>present trajectory to make it a real threat to Earth.

>Hello Nick & List,

>You're entirely right about unaccounted for dangers of comets or
>similar but inter-stellar motile travelers - but our "leaders"
>are more intent on self gratification (of one sort or another)
>than public protection.

>Go back to media reports of 20 years ago and find impact-
>predictions being laughed at by politicians, tame `scientists'
>and press; then go back ten years and see a little different
>attitude; then go back one year and see just a small realization
>by ignorant (but dominating) politicos, media hacks & tame
>`scientists'.

>(try "thump3.txt" in Google + links).

>The truth is, the more info we get, the larger the threat we
>see; the longer we go _without_ a collision the greater the
>likelihood of a bigger, more fatal one.

Ray,

Your point is well made. People seem to have been slower waking
up to the NEO threat than one would have hoped or expected. I'm
not an expert on the history of this work, but John & Mary
Gribbin's 1996 book "Fire on Earth" cites NASA's 1992 workshop
which led to the proposals for the so-called Spaceguard Survey
as being a key milestone in NEO work. They also cite a paper by
Clark Chapman and David Morrison (Nature, January 6 1994, volume
367, p33) as being the first proper risk analysis, and the basis
for subsequent NEO work.

I got involved in 1992, when in the margins of my UFO work I
started to receive questions about how the government would deal
with the threat from Comet Swift-Tuttle, which some media
reports suggested would hit the Earth in 2126. I first sought
advice from astronomers on the likelihood of collision. I can't
recall how I staffed this, but I suspect my first approach was
to the Royal Observatory Greenwich. I was assured that Swift-
Tuttle would not hit the Earth in 2126 and answered the other
part of the question by saying that it was not possible to say
what technologies might be available in 2126 to meet such a
threat, even if it did materialise.

I asked that material on this issue be passed to me and was
subsequently sent an article from the September 11 1993 issue of
"The Economist". The magazine made it the cover story, using the
headline "The Threat from Space". Since leaving the UFO Project
(aka the UFO Desk) I've kept up my interest in this subject and
am now an Associate Member of Spaceguard UK, a group dedicated
to raising awareness of the threat posed to the Earth by NEOs.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

             Re: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:28:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:56:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:44:48 EDT
>Subject: Re: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday Night

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:12:08 -0700
>>Subject: Reports Of Object "Falling From Sky" Wednesday Night

>>Source: KTRE Channel 9.nul

>>http://www.ktre.com/Global/story.asp?S11752&nav=2FH5OZC9

>>07/07/04 - East Texas

>>Reports of Object "Falling from the Sky" Wednesday Night

>>The East Texas News received numerous phone calls Wednesday
>>night from viewers who reported seeing something "falling from
>>the sky." Local law enforcement agencies also received calls from
>>citizens claiming to have seen something out of the ordinary in
>>the night sky.

>>KTRE Chief Meteorologist Lee Ringer says these sights were not
>>the result of a weather event but were more than likely a meteor
>>passing through the earth's atmosphere. Officials with the North
>>American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) report to the Federal
>>Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) that a heightened period of
>>meteor showers was expected to begin Wednesday night and
>>continue through the month.

>>The National Weather Service says similar reports of objects
>>"falling from the sky" were received from Witchita Falls, Texas
>>to Little Rock, Arkansas.

>Obviously the answer is probably a meteor. That being said,
>just for fun, lets look at this the way the skeptibunkers would
>look at a UFO sighting.

>Had these witnesses claimed to have seen a craft under
>intelligent control (pick your UFO size, shape and config at
>this point) the skeptibunkers would have been out of their minds
>tossing out such stories as Venus, Swamp Gas, Oil Well fires,
>Hoax, weather balloon, misidentification of...  and so on. We
>would have also heard how eye witness testimony is not reliable,
>and why any eye witness testimony to something out of the
>ordinary should be disregarded for many various reasons.

>Yet, an apparent meteor goes in over Texas and these same
>blathering, dithering, skeptibunkers are strangely silent. They
>accept the testimony of the witnesses without question, or
>without all of the usual blathering, without the usual tossing
>out of various explainations and so forth.

>Gee, isn't their something wrong with the skeptibunker picture?
>:)

I don't know what a skeptibunker is. Excuse my ignorance and
indulge me this scenario.

A woman sees a fireball in the sky. Ok. Fireballs happen, and
sometimes they are spectacular. A policeman's dashboard camera
catches the fireball on video, and it appears as normal as any
other fireball yet filmed. Spectacular, yet not outside the norm
in any way. Weathermen, astronomers, regular people all see a
fireball, or a meteor, or space junk streaking across the sky.
No one jumps to a radical conclusion, no one...at least not
yet...claims that it is anything other than a fireball.

What comment is the person with an interest in the investigation
of UFOs supposed to make? Are we supposed to go and ask the
woman if she saw portholes? Are we supposed to call into
question the credentials of the weathermen or the astronomers?
Are we supposed to call into question the validity of the
policeman's video? Are we to assume that all the reports have
been "sanitized" as a part of some dark conspiratorial agenda?

The story is consistent throughout the reporting, and reveals
little of any interest to those studying UFOs. It is what is
known as a non-story. An intriguing reaffirmation of the wonders
of the cosmos, nothing more.

How this could possibly compare to some of the UFO claims
made...in this and other forums...which demand some additional
investigation or corroboration is beyond me.

Perhaps a more constructive question is why so many who wish not
to be labelled seem so prone to doing it themselves.

Kyle King








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                         Re: UFO "Only Venus" - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:47:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:00:18 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - King


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:07:41 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:12:56 EDT
>>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

<snip>

>>It appears you've done the detective work that many have not.

>>So simple yet so powerful.

>>We should all of us contact the newspapers that carried the
>>'Venus' explanation and chastise them for not doing the work a
>>responsible press should have done as Mathieu has done.

>>Let's all us Yanks go to S. Africa and beat up the guys who ran
>>that Venus story :)

>Hold on Greg!

>Let us not invade another country before we are sure of our
>facts this time!

>Mathieu's conclusion that it could not be Venus is wrong because
>it is based on a false assumption (Venus was _not_ below the
>horizon for the duration of this UFO sighting) and does not take
>into account all the other facts - a scientific sin that
>distinguishes bebunkers from critical thinking investigators of
>UFO sightings.

>Below are excerpts of the UFO article taken from the news story
>in the web site above followed by my comments in [brackets].

<snip>

The most compelling argument I have yet read. Well thought out,
logical, refreshing.

Kudos, Nick.


Kyle King







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                    Strange 'Omega' Washington D.C. Sky!

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:53:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:01:49 -0400
Subject: Strange 'Omega' Washington D.C. Sky!


In case it interests anyone or anyone reading this also saw it:
Yesterday morning at 9:50 Eastern Daylight Savings Time, my wife
and I saw something that was quite bizarre at fairly low
altitude in the north-northwestern sky from our front yard in
the College Park zip code area of Maryland, and pretty close
inside the north edge of the Washington, D.C., Beltway. We live
in an area of highly controlled airspace, due to our proximity
to the nation's capital.

I wouldn't really call what we saw a UFO, because it looked more
as a phenomenon, than as an object, per se. It involved a
'something' shaped exactly like a vertically oriented Greek
letter omega, complete with the small 'wing' out to each side at
the bottom. The 'thing' seemed composed of a very solid-looking
tube (with pointed ends) of bright-white, opaque-looking, highly
coherent 'vapor' (or something else). No vortical motion was
noticed, and I looked for such.

The 'omega' phenomenon vertically subtended about four full
moons or two degrees in height (somewhat less in width), as
measured objectively by my wife using fingers at arm's length,
and by me, independently. The omega-like thing hovered at about
42 degrees elevation (using elevation finder instrument) in our
north-northwestern sky while a brand-new-looking (very clean,
bright paint) blue and white helicopter circled several times
between us and it at only a couple of hundred feet (maybe 300-
400 maximum) just to the east and southeast of the 'thing',
until the thing suddenly began to disintegrate or dissolve as a
white vapor that was quickly carried away to the east on low-
level winds that were the same as at ground level. Then, the
helicopter flew off.

Duration of the 'thing's stabile state (pre-disintegration) and
hover, from the beginning of our observation, was about five
minutes, as measured on my watch (not a guess).

The sky was clear, with only a few small, fluffy clouds drifting
on the brisk wind.

It was the extraordinarily noise of the low-level, circling (in
a N-S oval) helicopter (that had just flown into the area) that
caused me to look up in its direction and, as a result, see the
bizarre omega-shaped thing hovering what seemed, subjectively,
no more that a thousand feet (conceivably more) to the northwest
of the elliptical path of the helicopter. The helicopter
departed from its tight elliptical path once the 'omega' began
to disintegrate, after having completed several traverses of its
elliptical north-south path in the phenomenon's east and
southeast.

Investigating, I learned the identity of the helicopter and the
name of its pilot, a nice lady to whom I spoke this morning.
Yesterday, the Prince George's county police helicopter was in
Baltimore in connection with a funeral for a policeman who had
been shot a few days ago, so the U.S. Park Service helicopter
had been called in by the police to check on some activity that
had been spotted on the N-S railroad tracks that parallel Rhode
Island avenue and U.S. Route 1, and which railroad runs, north-
south at about a block and a half west of our home. If you look
for the railroad on a local map, it runs parallel to (and just
east of) Rhode Island Avenue in that area just north of
Greenbelt Road.

The pilot said she really wished she had noticed the thing, but
did not. Of course, although from our observation position the
'omega phenomenon' looked to be almost just beyond the
helicopter, to our north-northwest, upon analysis, I realize
that it was at a somewhat higher altitude than the helicopter,
which was flying low over the railroad tracks and, thus it
remained unnoticed during the pilot's care-requiring, close-to-
ground maneuvering.

The pilot confirmed that my description of where she was
maneuvering was highly accurate, but piloting the helicopter
very low (almost at tree-top level, where the trees are highest)
and having to make the repeated 180-degree turns at the north
and south ends of the area being covered in their investigation,
she had to watch everything nearby and probably didn't have the
chance to look far enough upward and out to the northwest and
west (depending on her position on the repeating flight ellipse
over the railroad) toward the seeming location of the phenomenon
(very approximately) above the intersection of Interstate
Highway 95 and the Interstate Highway 495 Beltway (or possibly a
bit farther than that away from us, but likely not much
farther).

There was another police person (a photographer, I think)
aboard, but I was told that person was preoccupied trying to see
what might be happening on the railroad tracks, which was their
purpose in being there.

So there you have it. We didn't get a witness from the
helicopter, but the pilot said she wished she had seen it and
would have taken photos of it, had she seen it.

All airport and police authorities to whom I spoke in reaching
the pilot were extremely polite and cooperative. I also
contacted a couple of D.C. TV channels in initially trying to
identify the helicopter, but it did not belong to them, and they
acknowledged no reports of the aerial 'omega', but, come to
think of it, it's embarrassing enough to report a UFO these
days, much the more-so a hovering 'omega', I suspect. I really
wouldn't expect anyone to report such a thing, and I wouldn't
have called the TV people, had I not been trying to identify the
helicopter and talk to its pilot, seeking to learn whether video
or photos might have been obtained

We live just inside the northern edge of the Washington, D.C.
Beltway (I 495), and a short drive west of the NASA Goddard
Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland. I ran inside to get
the camera but could not locate it, so I ran back out while my
wife (who had watched in the interim of my absence) went in and
found the camera where she finally recalled she had left it, and
came back outside with it.

By that time, the object had suddenly disintegrated, with the
residue drifting off in the lower-level wind direction. I took
several photos of the vapor drifting rapidly along with small,
low-level clouds and trees for reference, in order to show that
the residue was drifting on the lower-level wind and not with
the atmosphere higher up at jet cruise altitude. Had the 'omega'
been at jet cruise altitude, the winds that carried away the
vaporous residue would have had to have been moving at nearly
the speed of sound (maybe higher) to move it at the angular
speed at which it moved in the lower-level wind, as evidenced in
the cloud and vapor motion as photo-documented from our
position.

I telephoned my neighbor across the street, soon afterward, and
he had heard the very low helicopter and wondered about it, but
had not been curious enough to venture outside, where (had he
gone out the front door) he would have seen my wife and me and,
thus, the thing which we watched is amazement.

The observation was not frightening, but it seemed quite
bizarre. Admittedly, it was startling.

Within six minutes after the observation, I checked the ELF
magnetic environment with one of by project's instruments, but
found nothing magnetically anomalous.

Again, I would judge, subjectively, that the vertically oriented
(at least from our view, and seemingly relative to the ground)
'omega' was located approximately over the intersection of the
northern side of the D.C. Beltway (I 495) with I 95, going north
and south toward and from Baltimore. It was so windy yesterday
morning that I am confident the 'omega' was not 'skywriting',
and, furthermore, being just north of D.C. within its beltway,
we are in a highly FLIGHT CONTROLLED zone. A skywriting aircraft
would be unauthorized, and, thus, would have been quickly
investigated by the Air Force. Furthermore, with the substantial
wind involved, sky writing would not have been undertaken. Also
this did not look like any skywriting I've ever seen, and
skywriting could not have hovered in the sky, as did this
phenomenon before its sudden 'disintegration'.

I hope no one tries to read anything into the fact that the
phenomenon was omega-shaped, even though I could think of some
political commentary, appropriate to this pre-election period.
:)

So there you have it. One more mysterious phenomenon that
intrigues, annoys because we didn't get the camera in time, and
which I am reasonably confident is beyond anyone's ability
objectively interpret as to source or cause.

If anyone out there saw the thing and photographed or video-
taped it, please contact me.

Only one thing is certain to me: It surely looked like it did
not belong in the sky or anywhere else, except maybe at the end
of the Greek alphabet. :)

Even with standard lens, it would have provided a very
interesting, large-sized image, at two degrees high (somewhat
less wide).

From now on, the camera stays by our front door. I suggest
others do likewise.

Frustrated we didn't get a photo,

Ray Stanford







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                UFO Video Could Be Key In Enthusiast's Career

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:05:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:08:15 -0400
Subject: UFO Video Could Be Key In Enthusiast's Career



Source: The Dallas Morning News

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/world/mexico/stories/071104=
dnintufos.39baf.html

07-10-04


UFO video could be key in enthusiast's career

Military sighting lends credibility to man who's revered and
jeered

By LAURENCE ILIFF / The Dallas Morning News

MEXICO CITY - Jaime Maussan has spent the past decade collecting
possible evidence of alien visits to Earth and maintains he has
had personal contact with other "entities."

He presents UFO photos, videos and testimony on two Internet
sites, at conferences in Mexico and the United States, on the
radio and on his new prime-time television show.

Entertainer, journalist and believer, Mr. Maussan is the guru of
a subculture of UFO and space-travel devotees in Mexico, where
there are a surprising number of reported sightings.

Like their astronomer ancestors, Mexicans embrace the notion of
life in outer space and are generally less cynical about the UFO
phenomenon than Americans.

"In no other place in the world is there such a commitment to
producing evidence" of UFOs as in Mexico, he said.

And now Mr. Maussan says he has secured the most definitive
proof yet of extraterrestrial visitors, and from an unlikely
source: Mexico's super-secretive military.

The air force tape shows 11 luminous flying objects that
military experts can't explain. So they sought out Mr. Maussan
and cooperated with his investigation.

With the video has come a new dose of respect, Mr. Maussan said.

That could counter attacks on Mr. Maussan's credibility by
Mexican scientists and even UFO buffs in other countries. While
he is a darling among some in the UFO field, he is also
considered one of the worst hucksters by scientists and
skeptics, believers and nonbelievers, many of whom have their
own Web sites.

UFO Watchdog, which is much more interested in debunking UFO
theories than searching for proof of extraterrestial life, is
one. A Chile-based Web site, "La Nave de los Locos" or "Ship of
the Crazy," likewise is dedicated to debunking UFO stories and
the people who make money off them.

Both sites suggest that Mr. Maussan accepts any and all UFO
stories and repeats them with little or no skepticism to make
money. The Web site UFO Watchdog has placed Mr. Maussan in its
"UFO Hall of Shame," alleging that the longtime journalist is a
"promoter and supporter of various UFO hoaxes."


Before and after

Mr. Maussan, 51, acknowledges that there are bogus UFO stories,
but he said his new military-filmed video is bulletproof.

"This is a watershed," he said of the video, which was broadcast
worldwide in May and was the top story on Mexico's nightly news.
In the history of UFOs, "there is a before, and there is an
after," Mr. Maussan said in the dramatic tone that has made him
a mainstream entertainer and global UFO "expert."

The video also may be a watershed in Mr. Maussan's career.

He used it on the June 13 debut episode of his two-hour weekly
TV show, Great Mysteries of the Third Millennium, which is
broadcast live from his own studio.

On the show, air force pilots described their surprise at coming
across luminous objects while looking for drug traffickers in
the lower Gulf of Mexico on March 5.

Some of the objects showed up on radar, the pilots said, meaning
they had mass. Others showed up on an infrared camera, meaning
they emitted heat. During the incident, the pilots expressed
surprise and even concern that they were being surrounded.

At one point, one soldier says with nervous laughter, "We are
not alone."

National Defense Minister Ricardo Clemente Vega Garc=EDa said the
video was given to Mr. Maussan largely because the defense
ministry was unaware of anyone else who actively studied the
subject in Mexico.

"There are more copies for those scientists who want to see it,
only we don't know them," Mr. Vega said. He added that the
military had no opinion on what the shiny objects might be and
had never used words like "UFO" or "flying saucer" to describe
them.

Since President Vicente Fox became the first politician from an
opposition party to hold that office in seven decades, the
notoriously closed military has been somewhat more open.

Mr. Maussan, who dresses casually and exudes sincerity, said he
is a skeptical journalist who simply presents the evidence.

He cites his credentials as the former host of the investigative
news show 60 Minutos, which is unrelated to the popular U.S. TV
news magazine 60 Minutes, and a long list of awards and
achievements.


'A matter of time'

Mr. Maussan is also a believer who said he has had contact with
"entities." The experience, he said, was shared by half a dozen
people and came in the early years of his UFO investigations.

"For me, it was something very important. It convinced me that
this phenomenon is real and that it's just a matter of time. The
most natural logic indicates that this universe must be full of
intelligent life forms, and it's very likely that they are more
intelligent than us and can reach our planet," he said.

Mr. Maussan said he did not want to go into the details of his
personal experiences because that would make him, rather than
his journalistic work, the focus of attention.

"We are talking about the most important story in history,' he
said. "When you accept that intelligent entities of unknown
origin exist in our world, it changes everything."

While Mr. Maussan said he is not rich, his unique home in a
wooded area of Mexico City features underground bedrooms,
connecting tunnels and ongoing construction.

An above-ground nook is carved from a single tree and resembles
a pointy spaceship. But there are few other UFO knickknacks, and
his two young children don't seem particularly interested in the
topic. Mr. Maussan said his wife used to be a skeptic, too.

To be sure, scientists from Mexico and elsewhere are loudly
skeptical of this latest video. The usual explanations - weather
phenomena, offshore oil rigs, highway lights - have been
suggested.

UFO believers are unmoved and remain elated about the rare
military openness.


'This was an offense'

An admitted workaholic, Mr. Maussan holds twice-a-week
conferences around Mexico at $20 per attendee, and he had his
first in-person sessions in the U.S. on June 25 and 26, in Los
Angeles.

He is a regular guest on U.S. Spanish-language programs such as
the talk show Cristina. His own TV show can be seen by U.S.
viewers via streamed Internet.

"Many people ask me why the video was given to me," Mr. Maussan
said from his downtown Mexico City office, which is sprinkled
with a few UFO knickknacks. "Because of 13 years of presenting
this type of evidence. For the scientists, this was an offense.
But for the people, this was absolutely natural.

"The scientists," he added, "would have explained it away and
guarded it in a drawer so that no one could see it."

Posted by
Terry Groff
Field Investigator/Webmaster
Dallas-Fort Worth MUFON
http://mufondfw.com
Webmaster
UFO TOOLS
http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/

"The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO.
Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket
and refracted the light from Venus"
- Agent 'K'









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                 Re: UFO "Accident" Claim By Fireman - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:47:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:09:29 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Accident" Claim By Fireman - Boone


>From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 23:02:57 -0400
>Subject: UFO "Accident" Claim By Fireman - Video Report

>A 5-minute video summary of a bizarre UFO/automobile accident
>described by a Pierce Township (Ohio) Fire officer is freely
>available online in a .wmv format (will open with Windows Media
>Player version 9). This strange case occurred in Clermont
>County, Ohio in the early 90s.

<snip>

Thanks Kenny Young!

That was some awesome video report!

Of major note was how the gentleman relayed how some 'men' showed
up to debrief and warn/threaten them yet no government credentials?

As the old cartoon character 'Deputy Dawg' used to say:

"Hold on thar!"

I've heard this over and over again how UFO witnesses or
researchers or reporters get visits by people who warn them.
Some have credentials and some don't.

Under no circumstances whatsoever is someone supposed to warn or
threaten a citizen of the U.S. without the proper credentials
and threats are a major no-no. Who would let some stranger waltz
up to them and tell them what they could and shouldn't do?

We need to alert the public about what to do after a UFO
sighting and how the government is supposed to act. I've had my
fair share of witnesses who could have blown the lid off the UFO
phenom but chicken out or suddenly come up missing because some
'guys' showed up and they got worried. Mind you these same
people would whip the hide off a grizzly bear if it knocked over
their tv set during the middle of a soap opera or sports game
yet for some unknown reason some guys in 'suits' can rattle
their cages?

If they didn't show credentials then they're impersonating
government officials either local, state or federal and their
butts need to be reported to the proper authorities immediately
and a satisfactory answer from our officials need be presented.

Had that happened in my neighborhood you would have found some
guys in suits wearing their asses for hats.


Best,

Greg










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:21:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:11:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:46:44 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <nids.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:33:52 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>NIDS obtained permission to publish the entire McNally research
>>article on the NIDS web site at:

>>http://www.nidsci.org/pdf/spacealiens.pdf

>>Regarding List member's reaction to this paper, some of which I
>>have read:

>>The journal Psychological Science is one of the more prestigious
>>journals in psychology and is also one of the flagship journals
>>of the American Psychological Society. It is read by thousands
>>of professional and research psychologists worldwide.
>>Cumulatively Psychological Science readers hold tens of millions
>>of dollars in research grants from NIMH and other grant giving
>>bodies.

>>My hunch is that the data in this paper will surprise many
>>Psychological Science readers in the  psychology research
>>community, since it greatly undermines their common perception
>>that abductees are merely attention seekers, charlatans etc who
>>want nothing more than to get their 15 minutes of fame. The data
>>in Dr McNally's paper are saying that the responses of PTSD
>>victims and abductees are almost indistinguishable and will
>>therefore demolish some commonly-held stereotypes. I believe
>>that Dr MacNally's paper may stimulate members of the
>>psychological research community to take the next research step:
>>to use the tools of fMRI and other brain-imaging techniques to
>>take these (to their readers, very surprising) data to the next
>>level. That is precisely what is needed in this field.

>>As such, I believe Dr McNally's paper is a positive contribution.

Nick, Et Al,

>I strongly agree with Colm's comments on this and think McNally
>et al. have been unfairly criticised over their paper. Their
>methodology has presumably passed muster in order to have been
>published in Psychological Science, and they seem to have simply
>gone where their data took them.

Being one of those who have criticized the paper, (more
accurately the procedure) allow me to make comment; respectfully
Nick, arguing that "conventional wisdom" has accepted the study,
and because it appears in the prestigious journal,
"Psychological Science," is "weak!"

Case in point is the recent Mexican UFO event; many so-called
"qualified scientists" in various fields have been quick to tell
us that the UFOs were simply, ball lightning, atmospheric gases,
meteors, space debris, weather balloons, stealth aircraft,
flares and oil well fires. Moreover, "conventional wisdom" has
been doing that for 60 years, and "passing muster" with this
clique, doesn't merit accolades in my view.

I do agree that they went "where the data took them," however; I
believe the procedure was "flawed" therefore the destination is
erroneous.

>I think there's a wider point to be made about this. I've worked
>with a lot of abductees, both when I ran the British
>Government's UFO project, and after that tour of duty, in a
>private capacity. Abductees and ufologists often told me that
>they resented the way the abduction phenomenon was ignored by
>the Establishment. My point is that if scientists are
>collectively criticised for failing to look properly at
>abductions, it's unfortunate that those few who do are shot down
>in flames when their honestly reported data don't correlate the
>preconceived ideas of those whose minds are already made up.

Ironically, my problem with the study, is McNally,s
"preconceived notion" that his test subjects suffered from
"hypnopompic hallucinations" without any data to support that
idea. To be clear - his test subjects may have well been
"psychotic," but if that is the case, then I believe that should
have been included in the study. Moreover, I don't think McNally
is being dishonest in any way - he is only a product of "in the
box thinking" and in my view that shows in this study.

>I was about to send this email when I saw John Harney's post.
>Among other points, he suggested that a psychologist on the List
>compile a list of apparent faults in the paper and raise the
>issues with McNally. I've sent the paper to Chris French and
>Julia Santomauro at Goldsmiths College, University of London. I
>suspect they'll find it difficult to comment while their own
>abduction study is ongoing, but if they do have any views
>they're happy to make public, I'll pass them on.

I might also make this point; aside from the title, I believe
"the focus" on the McNally's study was the investigation whether
recollection of "highly improbable traumatic events" [emphasis
added] provokes psychophysiological reactions indicative of
intense emotion. In other words his study wasn't about
"abductees," the group only provided fodder for the "false
memory group." (Without any supportive data indicating the
memories were false - other then his own apparent
predisposition).

Finally, some who have said that "any" nod about the "abductee
phenomenon" to appear in "Psychological Science Journal" is a
positive thing, which was in my "gray basket" (as Stan would
say), after giving it further thought and partaking in this
thread, I don't agree; as Colm Kelleher says, their common
perception that abductees are merely attention seekers,
charlatans etc. who want nothing more than to get their 15
minutes of fame." [Speaking of members of the American
Psychological Society] McNally, using terms like, "hypnopompic
hallucinations, highly improbable traumatic events, in regards
to abductees, I would imagine, will only reconfirm what
Kellerher says is their preconceived common perception and this
of course is not a positive thing.


Respectfully,

Frank Warren








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                  Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Chace

From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:37:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:15:08 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Chace


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:09:52 EDT
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:23:44 -0300
>>Subject: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>In the beginning of 2003 Varginha was visited by Roger
>>Leir, US ufologist and acknowledged physician, whose
>>experience of more than 50 years as a UFO researcher

>Where is there any evidence that Leir has "more than 50 years"
>of experience as a UFO researcher? I never heard
>of him till the 90's. I see no publications by him in the 50's
>and 60's and 70's and 80's UFO publications. What does this
>mean, that he was hobbyist or enthusiast who collected
>magazines for most of 50 years and that qualifies him as a
>"UFO researcher"?

That�s a good point Brad. I have a great deal of respect for Dr.
Leir, but the fact is that he was a closet ufologist up until
his work in the mid-nineties with Derrel Sims on the removal of
alleged implants.

In the first videos in which he was interviewed his face was
hidden in shadow, presumably so that his professional career as
a podiatrist would not suffer.

I have no reason to doubt Leir�s competence in interviewing the
people in Brazil who were witness to the Varginha events of
January 1996, but we should be careful about the use of terms
like "UFO researcher" in describing someone�s biographical
information.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                         Origin Of The Term 'Grays'?

From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:13:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:17:41 -0400
Subject: Origin Of The Term 'Grays'?


As someone who has followed the UFO abduction phenomenon since
the mid-eighties I am curious about the origin of the term
"Grays" or "Greys" (I understand the "a" is more commonly used
in American spellings and the "e" in British spellings) to refer
to the small gray beings so frequently described by abductees.

Is anyone aware of any book published before 1990 that refers
to them by this name? In the eighties, from my recollection,
they were generally referred to simply as aliens,
extraterrestrials, UFO occupants or humanoids, or sometimes as
EBEs (I think that term, meaning Extraterrestrial Biological
Entities, came out of the MJ-12 documents or related documents
on alleged crash retrievals).

The first place I remember hearing them called "Grays", I think,
was the Dulce papers or some of the rumors related to the Paul
Bennewitz affair and the Christa Tilton abduction case. Most of
that material was not published until the early nineties, as I
understand.

What I do know is that by 1995, if someone were to mention the
Grays in the context of discussing UFO abductions, pretty much
everyone familiar with the abduction phenomenon would have an
immediate mental image of a small-bodied, bigheaded, black-eyed,
gray- skinned humanoid.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                 Mystery Of Chilean 'Winged Dogs' Increases

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:57:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:20:35 -0400
Subject: Mystery Of Chilean 'Winged Dogs' Increases


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
July 11, 2004


Source: Diario El Centro
Date: July 7, 2004


Mystery Of The "Winged Dogs" Increases
Esteban Leal

Affected parties acknowledge having paid no furhter mind to the
event, but with all tha has been published, they are now afraid
and have decided to talk.

Parral, July 7.- Fourteen sheep died inexplicably last week, but
this wasn't enough to for two familes of shepherds from Parral
to make a formal report of the event, despite the fact that the
animals bodies were found torn and bloodied but without any
traces of a predator that would have feasted on them. Everything
changed in the last few hours, when word spread of the attack on
peasant Juan Acuna Periera by creatures unknown to doctors, and
that he described as "winged dogs."

The deaths occured at the Las Cabras farm and at a smallhold
located near the commune's hospital. The affected parties say
they gave no special importance to the event, but in view of all
that has been published, they became afraid and decided to come
forward.

In the first case, 8 sheep were found exsanguinated in the rear
of the Inapar corporation. The family running the premises -
 facing the hospital - recorded the dead animals on their
camcorder to leave a document for the owner of the property and
the animals, in the hopes of avoiding any misunderstandings
later. Diario EL CENTRO managed to obtain exclusive access to
this visual record, showing the conditions in which the sheep
were found.

Ever since the Acu=F1a case became known, members of this family
have chosen to leave their clothes hanging outside after
nightfall instead of going out and risking a similar attack.
That is the level of their fear. "They can't be dogs," the said,
requesting anonymity, since "dogs will eat the sheep, not bleed
it...this is the work of a strange animal."

The affected parties said they decided not to report the
incident to Carabineros (state police) because over 40 dead hens
were found under similar conditions last year, and they remember
that the police told them not to go out at night, since a
strange dangerous species could be on the loose.

The second case corresponds to the death of 6 sheep in the Paso
Hondo rural area on the way to Cauquenes, in the "Las Cabras"
farm.

This newspaper visited the site, notivied by a source. After
asking if it was indeed true that they had found dead animals on
the property, a person came to the door to confirm the report:
"Yes, 6 dead sheep were found on the pasture, but it was never
known what killed them. I can't explain it. All I know is that
they had very little blood, because they were brought in for the
dogs and their hides were removed."

Claudio Bravo, mayor of Parral, said: "I have no greater opinion
that what has appeared in the media. I think calm should reign,
first and foremost. These cases are isolated and infrequent. The
fact is that we don't know--until the investigation is well
underway -- if we are facing a new species or a normal, everyday
species. I would ask the community to remain calm.

But he also joked: "If the Chupacabras has done anything
positive by its presence, it's that we have fewer people on the
streets at night., which I think is good. I hope the Chupacabras
won't attack decent folks, only the delinquents who are up to no
good in Parral."

The Parralinos interpretations of the event range from
skepticism to the Bible. Nora Retamal, a secretary to Senator
Jaime Naranjo, has a view of the phenomenon that he relates to
the Apocalypse: "This book tells us that different things will
come to pass. We know that the forces of evil present themselves
in different guises. God wants us to be ready to witness some
very odd things."

Fidel Sanchez, who keeps his hand on the local society's pulse,
things that most Parralinos believe that the attack on the
farmer was the work of the Chupacabras, while adding that others
believe it's just a dog. "All of these things give me goose
pimples. The fact that there could be a mysterious creature
wandering the night that could attack me...all I can do is go to
bed early."


Translation (c) 2004. Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Grupo GEO.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

              Re: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents -

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:12:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:22:14 -0400
Subject: Re: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents -


>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:08:57 -0400
>Subject: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents

>I've recently acquired what is most likely the largest
>collection of declassified CIA documents regarding the STARGATE
>Remote Viewing program.

>This collection totals 14 CD Roms of documentation in both OCR'd
>text format as well as .tif format, for a total of over 10,000
>pages of documents spanning 20+ years of the remote viewing
>program. Each CD includes an index to the files included on them
>in .dat format.

>In due time I will make these indexes available for review at
>michiganufos.com but I've yet to decide how to make the files
>themselves available to the public.

>It will be interesting to see how this documentation stacks up
>to what has been disclosed by those who have chosen to go public
>with their involvement in this program.


Todd,

Do you know if any of the documents pertain to the Stanford
Research Institute program at all?

Thanks.

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

              Re: Does NASA Publish Inverted Data? - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:24:08 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:25:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Does NASA Publish Inverted Data? - Stevenson


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 06:37:04 -0700
>Subject: Re: Does NASA Publish Inverted Data?

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:42:41 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Does NASA Publish Inverted Data?

>>>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:34:00 +0100
>>>Subject: Does NASA Publish Inverted Data?

>>>Extracted enlargement;

>>>http://www.colsweb.com/marsmelt2.gif

>>>from

>>>http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2004/07/07/index.html

>>>showing Mars Carbon Dioxide Ice Pole melt.

>>>Has NASA got the number upside down!?

>>>Maybe as the ice melts to a greater depth two more 6's will be
>>>revealed? Letter hight is approx 70 feet ( 23 metres ).

>>>col

>>Two _more_ "6's"? I don't see the first "6" yet. I bet if I
>>search the spackle on my ceiling long enough I could find
>>several "6's".

Yes. But would they be 70 feet high Terry?

>Maybe somebody just flipped over the 'negative'. That happens
>all the time in the darkroom. Some pretty lady passes by and the
>negative will flip over all by itself.

How doe's one detect if the Lady is 'pretty in the darkroom'
and... is flipping over necessary?

>"What am I doing depicting a fat guy and his dumb kids with a
>bunch of trout on a string by mosquito lake Wisconsin?" it must
>ask itself.

Is this a deliberate attempt, Larry, to introduce the subject of
bait for Pelicans? :-)

If so then can Pelicans fly upside down to avail themselves of
the free food and are these Pelicans also employed at NASA and
are there any Trout available now?

What, also, is the type of information technology you refer to
which 'must ask itself' and is it the right way up?

>I'm no photographer, but suspect that anyone who processes his
>own film will agree. Negatives flip like pancakes and only the
>positives give a clue which side landed up on top.  Oh sure,
>there are special orientation marks, but who can read those in a
>darkroom?

I presume you cook your pancakes on an electric ring with a
positive wire to the top of the food to decrease cooking time,
to indicate which is the topside after flipping, and then paint
small area's of relish of similar color to the pancake to the
flip side as NASA do in their very dark black Cray P.C. towers?

>Best wishes

>PS: My favorite hamburger joint delivers the goods with the
>patties upside down. Why? Ask the devil's grandmother.

I tried to ask her but she was out to lunch eating upside
down cakes with a Tinny in Australia.

Therefore can we presume the answer to the original posted
question was Yes or No thus leaving our options open?

kind wishes,

col
http://www.colsweb.com/texjoe.htm
Save Energy and the Planet

PS: Does internet and NASA (Radio Telescope) data from
Australia have to be inverted for us to view it the correct way
up and 'someone' forgot?







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

              Re: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:37:10 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:26:43 -0400
Subject: Re: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents -


>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:08:57 -0400
>Subject: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents

>I've recently acquired what is most likely the largest
>collection of declassified CIA documents regarding the STARGATE
>Remote Viewing program.

>This collection totals 14 CD Roms of documentation in both OCR'd
>text format as well as .tif format, for a total of over 10,000
>pages of documents spanning 20+ years of the remote viewing
>program. Each CD includes an index to the files included on them
>in .dat format.

>In due time I will make these indexes available for review at
>michiganufos.com but I've yet to decide how to make the files
>themselves available to the public.

>It will be interesting to see how this documentation stacks up
>to what has been disclosed by those who have chosen to go public
>with their involvement in this program.


>Todd Lemire

>http://www.michiganufos.com

Wow! Todd Lemire, that's what I call impressive to say the
least!

Guess I just got taught how to do things the right way!

The suspense! The suspense!


Best,

Greg












   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                 Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:52:10 -0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:29:37 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:57:56 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:09:52 EDT
>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:23:44 -0300
>>>Subject: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>>VARGINHA CASE:

>>>New revelations about the capture and medical treatment of alien
>>>creatures in Brazil, January 1996

><snip>

>>This is as laughable as Stringfield's bogus "alien autopsy"
>>which sounded like a Meat Packer or Butcher Shop Assistant had
>>made up the description not a scientist, medical physician or
>>pathologist. Where are the details of the creature's height,
>>weight, color, tabulation of body parts and distinguishable
>>organs, condition of body part by part organ by organ, breathing
>>(he _refused_ to say! WTF is that?), pulse and pulse rate if
>>any, nature and description of injuries injury by injury, manner
>>of treatment for each injury, drugs administered if any, body
>>fluids and waste products emitted if any, blood and circulatory
>>system if any, bone structure if any, musculature if any, skin
>>condition if any, description of lesions-contusions-lacerations
>>if any (it was injured so there had to be some right?), foreign
>>objects if any (shrapnel maybe?), clothing and attire if any,
>>radiography-sonography-MRI if any, lab tests of blood-tissue-
>>fluids, etc. etc.

>>How did the creature's condition change with time, minute to
>>minute, hour by hour? Any real doctor wants to establish some
>>kind of idea of a prognosis - is the condition worsening,
>>improving, staying the same? With an alleged unknown entity with
>>supposedly strange physiology any real physician in his right
>>mind will be keenly attentive to such signs to see if his
>>treatment regimen is working, so he can stop something that
>>isn't working and/or apply emergency aid, or follow on a
>>promising avenue of treatment if something does seem to work.

>>If this was the most sensational event of this so-called
>>"Doctor's" life then he should have been going over every one of
>>these _medical_ details in his mind day after day for the past 8
>>years, trying to make _medical_ sense of it all. And there is
>>not one sign of any such _medical_ thought processes. But if
>>this is just another dumbass hoax by a non-MD layperson then one
>>would expect no realistic sounding clinical descriptions, no
>>medical terminology, no sign of a real physician's diagnostic
>>mindset. In fact a lay hoaxer most likely would not even know
>>what "diagnosis" means.

>Bravo, Brad...

>This "report" is akin to that by the "astronomer" from Kwazu-Natal
>who stated Venus was mistaken for a UFO, when in fact Venus was
>below the horizon at the time of the sighting... among other
>unscientific ruminations.

>So many experts, so little expertise.

Dear Brad and Kyle:

You are certainly right and I cannot forgive myself for not
realising that sooner. Yes, we cannot pay any attention to this
thing and take it seriously. We should just drop at once these
"new revelations" made by that Doctor in the garbage can and
forget it at all.

Maybe, indeed, we should just come to this poor man and say at
once: "I am sorry Doctor, but I will have to dump your info in
the garbage can, UNLESS you provide an extention to your report
to the lenght and to the number of details that my American
colleagues find appropriate".

Or maybe I should also say to him: "Please, Doctor, don't bother
us with these minor and worthless details of an alien creature
captured by military in the most comprehensive search ever
performed by military police in Minas Gerais state, Brazil, and
taken to your hospital in the middle of the night, where the
whole branch of Maternity and part of the branch of Child Care
where isolated for a few hours by men using uniforms and heavily
armed, in such a situation that you were supposed to perform
your duties as a Doctor to try to understand what the hell was
that in that hospital bed, UNLESS you provide to my American
collegues the whole report about it".

And: "Doctor, we don't care if you took hundreds of sleepless
nights to decide whether to reveal that or not, and don't even
care about the many threats you received for not doing so, and
any concerns you may have about your and your family' lives,
UNLESS you satisfy our query with more details".

What about that?

We wouldn't be missing a thing...

A. J.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                        Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:17:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:32:25 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus" - Groff


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:08:37 EDT
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:21:40 -0500
>>Subject: Re: UFO "Only Venus"

>>According to my software, Venus was well below the horizon at
>>4:00 am in Durban, S. Africa (Lat. S 29:53:00 Long. E 30:53:00)
>>and didn't rise until just before 5.00 am

>>Az: 59:41:10; Alt: 13:10:16
>>RA: 4:34:52; Dec: 18:12:55
>>Ecliptic Lon: 69:47:15; Lat: -3:44:33
>>Galactic Lon: 179:20:44; Lat: -19:26:09
>>Rising: Jun 27, 2004; 4:49:57 A.M.
>>Transit: Jun 27, 2004; 10:08:12 A.M.
>>Setting: Jun 27, 2004; 3:26:35 P.M.
>>Phase: 10.7%, Phase angle: 141.74=F8
>>Apparent Diameter: 49.12"
>>Distance from Observer: 0.340 AU

>Wow! Thanks to Terry Groff too!

<snip>

I need to correct the data above which is actually for 6:00 AM
Durban local time

Here's Venus' location at 4:00 am

Az: 75:08:02; Alt: -10:54:48 (~11 degrees below horizon)
RA: 4:34:55; Dec: 18:13:31
Ecliptic Lon: 69:47:51; Lat: -3:44:02
Galactic Lon: 179:20:34; Lat: -19:25:22

Just for measure here's Venus' location at 5:00 am

Az: 67:57:08; Alt: 1:27:35 (~1.5 degrees above the horizon)
RA: 4:34:54; Dec: 18:13:13
Ecliptic Lon: 69:47:34; Lat: -3:44:18
Galactic Lon: 179:20:39; Lat: -19:25:45


Terry








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:17:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:36:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Kaeser


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:13:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:22:30 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

<snip>

>I don't agree. Verifying the AA crash site will turn out to be
>an important ufological event.


Ed-

We'll have to agree to disagree, and if proof of your claim ever
develops I'll be the first to admit that I was wrong. I have
good descriptions from other who spoke with Santilli on these
issues, at the time of the appearance of the "map", so I'm not
sure why you have problems believing my description.

But it really doesn't matter. You've visited a site, found what
you believe to be the site described by the "Cameraman" (whom I
can't even state exists at all, save for Santilli's story), and
posted your conclusions.

I think any search for a site is a bogus endeavor until some
foundation for the search can be verified. That hasn't happened,
IMO.

As far as the unusual material you've found and believe is
evidence of a crash), this has been previously vetted through
discussion on this List. See:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/may/m06-016.shtml

Ray Sanford later followed that up with another post on his
findings:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/may/m09-023.shtml

There were a number of other posts on this subject during that
exchange, but it makes no sense to go back and replay the
argument.

FYI, I'm going to end my part in this discussion here, unless
some new evidence comes up to spark further interest. I've
completely ignored the AA film as an interesting anomaly for the
past several years because there's been nothing new to really
discuss. Nearly all of the original investigators into the
"film" have taken that stance, and I actually hope you can prove
us wrong.


Steve








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                     Re: reatures With No Business Here!

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:51:04 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:43:26 -0400
Subject: Re: reatures With No Business Here!


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:13:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:22:30 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

OK, if I'm hearing you correctly Ed, you want somebody other
than yourself to actually go and look at the area you say is the
correct crash site. You asked me before if I would go and I
declined due to health issues.

I will go with you to the site you say is the crash site and
look for myself. I am not a field investigator and have never
claimed to be, but I'm not some run-of-the-mill dummy, either. I
live in New Mexico and have done so for almost 30 years, so I
know the terrain and what should stand out as something that
should be looked at closely by trace specialists (Ted Philips,
etc.) or if an area stands out as radically different from
surrounding areas.

Again, I'm not an expert in geology (but I have had a geology
course from the University of Iowa), etc. But I would hope I
have enough of a reputation in the field that my comments would
not be either dismissed or ridiculed, but taken in the context I
present it.

But be forewarned... if I don't agree with you that the area is
important enough to be considered, I'll say so. Secondly, you
know I don't hold any credence to the validity of the AA
scenario, but I do have questions of my own. I am an absolute
skeptic, but always keep an open mind. If I think you're a
blathering fool, I'll say so openly on this List. If I think
that a team of researchers should get together and take a close
look, I'll say that, but no matter which, my opinion isn't going
to mean much in the whole scheme of things other than I actually
will speak from the experience of being at site and what I
observed.

Here are the ground rules. I go totally on your dime (you pay
all expenses) and you supply the equipment I will need, both
personally and for the site observation. Some of what I'll need
are:

1. A filter mask of professional quality. I am a brittle
asthmatic and dust isn't kind to me anymore. A good first
aid kit.

2. 2 dozen quart glass specimen jars with labels.

3. A minimum of 10 rolls of 400 speed Kodak digital film for
a 35 SLR camera.

4. Shovel (both digging and scooping), pick, hand maul, hand
trowel, assortment of soft bristle brushes, 100 foot
measuring tape and 2 tarps.

5. A beach umbrella and a portable table and chair. My Lupus
doesn't do well with direct sun and I cannot stand for long
periods of time.

6. A bundle of stakes (approx. 50) and heavy duty twine. Also,
adhering tabs that can be written on and attached to the line. A
white marker board with marking pens.

7. Current topographical maps of the area and aeronautical chart
of the area. A heavy duty field compass.

8. Food and lots of Gator Aid.

9. At least two people to do the grunt work I'll need done.

10. I will go only in late September or early October.

There may be other items not listed that I will need. But also,
when you come, be prepared to give me a formal presentation of
your research and materials. We don't step into the field unless
I have a good grasp of what you've accomplished, materials
you've used and the reasons for your position. No kidding, Pal,
I'm not doing this unless you are willing to show me you're
serious.

Lastly, you do deserve at the least, one person willing to
listen, look and make their own determination if you MAY have a
reasonable position that shouldn't be just thrown out. If you
believe I am reputable enough, I'll go with you. Let me know by
private email and produce no more postings on the subject until
I have seen the site for myself and give this List my thoughts
on what I observed.

Fair?


Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                       Wendy Conners On SDI Last Night

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:06:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:45:16 -0400
Subject: Wendy Conners On SDI Last Night


Hi All,

I can't begin to express how impressed I am with the latest
offering/compilation, from Wendy Conners' Faded Discs audio
archive. It contains some twenty-five hours worth of UFO
abduction case history spanning forty + plus years of time
beginning with the Villas-Boas abduction case in 1957.

There is nothing like hearing live, first hand witness
testimony. Listening with my ears glued to the radio while EBK
played a clip from Betty Hill's hypnosis session; where she
describes a procedure that was performed on her by one of their
captors involving the insertion of a long needle into her
abdomen,  (they were allegedly performing a "pregnancy test,")
and how her testimony of this very specific procedure predated
(by almost fifteen years,) the invention and broad use of
amniocentesis, a procedure that can be used to diagnose a large
number of genetic and chromosomal abnormalities in a fetus. For
those who may be unfamiliar with it, amniocentesis involves
inserting a long needle into the abdomen of a pregnant woman in
order to remove a sample of the fluid which surrounds the fetus
for testing. It hadn't even been 'thought of' by medical
researchers at the time of Betty's abduction experience.

That bit of testimony alone would make the CD worthy of a
purchase. But it is only a tiny snippet of the twenty-five hours
worth of recordings of, Betty and Barney Hill, Charlie Hickson,
Travis Walton and countless others that can only be heard here
on this CD.

Wendy has performed an invaluable service by doing the work of
collecting, editing and compiling all of this material for us
and for posterity. We can all support her worthwhile efforts by
ordering one or all four of the discs she has made available by
going to:

http://www.fadeddiscs.com/

*BTW, Wendy... nice logo! I never knew that you actually used
it! I was pleasantly surprised to see that you did.  ;)

Support the good people in ufology who are quietly, competently
and without any compensation, glory or fanfare, slaving away in
the background doing all of the hard 'nuts and bolts' work. If
not for Wendy Conners and a few others like her, ufology
wouldn't be worth a damn. We need to _actively_ support these
people with our Dollars, Euro's and Yen.

I am deeply honored that Wendy thought of me while she put
this compilation together. It means a great deal to me.

To one who understands... my best wishes,

John Velez









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

                 Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:29:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:49:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - King


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:21:31 -0700
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:04:54 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

<snip>

>>Like Steve, I went there. Couldn't find it. Found the Shuttle
>>stuff and while trying to download that my Mac locked up. Had to
>>do an illegal shutdown [now the Mac police will be after me] and
>>reboot. That never happened before on your site.

>>Anyway, why not just post the actual URL? Is it some agreement
>>you have with the advertizers?

>Good to hear you say it first.

<snip>

>The "sorry for..." gimmick took up something like 100 typed
>characters. The direct URL to the page in question is some small
>fraction of that most likely.

>I don't enjoy seeing our intelligence insulted in this rather
>obvious and juvenile manner, and suspect that I'm not alone in
>this.

The URL, as requested:

http://www.thewhyfiles.net/gehrman.htm

...sans offensive loss leader merchandise. <g>

The "article" speaks volumes, and says very little. And if one
judges one by the company one keeps, go back and read a few of
the other "articles" on that site.


Kyle King







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 11

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:44:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:52:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Kelly Freeman <Khfflsciufo.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:03:55 EDT
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:33:50 -0400 (EDT)
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:46:44 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>>From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <nids.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:33:52 -0700
>>>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>><snip>

>>>>My hunch is that the data in this paper will surprise many
>>>>Psychological Science readers in the psychology research
>>>>community, since it greatly undermines their common perception
>>>>that abductees are merely attention seekers, charlatans etc who
>>>>want nothing more than to get their 15 minutes of fame. The data
>>>>in Dr. McNally's paper are saying that the responses of PTSD
>>>>victims and abductees are almost indistinguishable and will
>>>>therefore demolish some commonly-held stereotypes. I believe
>>>>that Dr. McNally's paper may stimulate members of the
>>>>psychological research community to take the next research step:
>>>>to use the tools of fMRI and other brain-imaging techniques to
>>>>take these (to their readers, very surprising) data to the next
>>>>level. That is precisely what is needed in this field.

>>>>As such, I believe Dr. McNally's paper is a positive contribution.

>>>I strongly agree with Colm's comments on this and think McNally
>>>et al. have been unfairly criticised over their paper. Their
>>>methodology has presumably passed muster in order to have been
>>>published in Psychological Science, and they seem to have simply
>>>gone where their data took them.

><snip>

>>This is odd: they are not trying to understand the abduction
>>experience. They have simply decided that it cannot be true.

><snip>

>>The ones who should be shot down are the ones with bias,
>>preconceived ideas and whose minds are already made up?

>Michael and List,

>I think it would be appropriate to point out that McNally has a
>relatively new book out, Remembering Trauma, that IMO, renders
>the PTSD study invalid as an objective approach towards
>understanding the alien abduction 'syndrome'. I haven't read the
>book - yet - but I intend to and perhaps those of us interested
>in this thread should read it also. The reviews for McNally's

>http://www.hup.harvard.edu/reviews/MCNREM_R.html

>The PTSD study, rather than spur the psychology/psychiatry
>professions into researching further into the alien abduction
>problem, would instead have the opposite effect for those who
>have read McNally's book, ridiculing those who claim to have
>been 'kidnapped by space aliens' and pointing out the
>conclusions made in McNally's book.

>I am not optimistic about what the final outcome will be. It
>would be interesting to find out if anyone on Harvard's staff of
>scientists/professors, or even McNally's team, have done a study
>on the psychological profile of witnesses who have had UFO
>sightings - John Mack excluded.

>As a final note, I don't know about anybody else, but I consider
>the terms "kidnapped by space aliens" or just "space aliens"
>demeaning in nature and we should encourage a more objective
>description, such as 'unknown entities'.

<snip>

"Space aliens" demeaning...? Demeaning to whom? The same people
who think "thousands of civilians killed in war" should read
"acceptable losses" or "collateral damage"?

If someone believes they were abducted by "unknown entities", it
follows that the abductors COULD be men in black ski masks...or
gnomes.

Nope, these people believe they were abducted by space aliens.
They're aliens who come from space.

That the term is a subject of ridicule is in part due to the
fact that so many abductees begin their story with, "You're
going to think I'm crazy but...". Even they themselves realize
how "crazy" it sounds. But changing the typical reaction will
not be accomplished by giving it a less "demeaning" name, I
trust.

The ridicule does nothing to diminish the truth. Galileo was
ridiculed.

For the record, I have always preferred the term
"extraterrestrials". It's accurate and it sounds more
scientific.


Kyle King








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 18

                        Who Was Laurance Rockefeller?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:33:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:33:45 -0400
Subject: Who Was Laurance Rockefeller?







Source: The Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42994-2004Jul11.html

Philanthropist Laurance Rockefeller Dies

The Associated Press
Sunday, July 11, 2004; 7:25 PM

NEW YORK - Laurance Rockefeller, a conservationist,
philanthropist and leading figure in the field of venture
capital, died in his sleep Sunday morning. He was 94.

The cause of death was pulmonary fibrosis, his spokesman Fraser
Seitel said in a statement.

Rockefeller was No. 377 on this year's Forbes magazine list of
587 billionaires, with $1.5 billion. But he was perhaps best
known for his environmental work: He served under five
presidents in several capacities related to conservation and the
outdoors.

He founded the American Conservation Association in 1958 and was
head of Jackson Hole Preserve Inc., a conservation organization
that played a major role in protecting parts of the Grand Tetons
in Wyoming and redwood trees in California.

Rockefeller helped develop national parks in Wyoming, the U.S.
Virgin Islands and Vermont, and chaired the White House
Conference on Natural Beauty.

Rockefeller also was a pivotal developer of the economics field
that became known as venture capital.

In 1938 he helped finance World War I pilot Eddie Rickenbacker's
Eastern Airlines, and he later invested in McDonnell Aircraft
Corp., Intel Corp. and Apple Computer Inc. He sought to fund
ventures that would strengthen national security, welfare or the
economy.

"As his younger brother, I always admired Laurance for his
extraordinary business skills and often followed his lead by
joining him in the field of venture capital, where he was a true
pioneer," said David Rockefeller, the last remaining child of
John D. Rockefeller Jr.

Laurance Spelman Rockefeller was born May 26, 1910, in New York,
and was the fourth of six children of Rockefeller Jr. and Abby
Aldrich Rockefeller. He graduated from Princeton University in
1932 and studied law at Harvard for two years. In 1934, he
married Mary French.

He served in the Navy during World War II and became a
lieutenant commander.

Rockefeller served on the board of Memorial Sloan-Kettering
Cancer Center and became the first recipient of the American
Cancer Society's Alfred P. Sloan Memorial Award for his
contributions to cancer research.

Rockefeller is survived by four children, eight grandchildren
and 12 great-grandchildren. His wife died in 1997.

=A9 2004 The Associated Press

-----

Date: 05-30-96 (08:35)
  To: All
From: John Powell
Subj: Rocky & UFOs
Conf: Fd_Bama

   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

UFO BRIEFING DOCUMENT SHOWS "BEST AVAILABLE EVIDENCE"
Rockefeller-Financed Report To Be Sent To World Leaders

by Michael Lindemann

In recent years, 85-year-old philanthropist Laurance Rockefeller
has given financial support to a number of prominent researchers
of UFO and alien phenomena, including Dr. John Mack and Dr.
Steven Greer. He has also urged President Clinton to acknowledge
the reality of UFOs, both indirectly, through Clinton's science
advisor John Gibbons, and directly -- if well-placed rumors are
true -- last fall when Rockefeller hosted the president at his
ranch in Wyoming.

Now Mr. Rockefeller has financed the creation of a 169-page
document intended to present "the best available evidence" on
UFOs to a very select audience: heads of state and other key
world figures, who may be almost entirely ignorant of the
evidence but who could, if sufficiently moved, very quickly undo
the atmosphere of secrecy that has surrounded this subject for
decades.

Reportedly, only 1,000 copies of the special briefing have been
printed, and it will not be offered for sale. Distribution of
the briefing has only begun, and so far no feedback from high-
ranking recipients has been reported. However, ISCNI has
received a copy of the briefing, along with permission to
describe its contents to the readers of this newsletter.

Titled "Unidentified Flying Objects Briefing Document" and
subtitled "The Best Available Evidence," the report is
conservatively packaged, with a plain blue softcover binding and
black-and-white illustrations throughout. It was written mainly
by Don Berliner, a long-time respected UFO researcher, author
and senior associate of the Fund for UFO Research. Co-authors
were Antonio Huneeus and Marie Galbraith. Chairman of the Fund
for UFO Research Richard Hall also wrote a separate executive
summary. Joint credit for the material in the report is given to
the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), the Center for UFO Studies
(CUFOS) and the Fund for UFO Research. A letter of endorsement
signed by the heads of these organizations appears at the front
of the report.

The report is in three parts. First is a brief Overview,
discussing the general case for UFO reality and the problem of
government secrecy. Part two, the most lengthy, presents
nineteen case discussions deemed "the best evidence" now
available. Various experts will no doubt quibble over the
inclusion or exclusion of some cases, but in general the
selection is well thought out and impressive. Part three is
comprised mainly of quotes from various world figures on the
reality or possibility of UFOs and alien contact.

Notably absent from the report are any cases involving alleged
abduction of humans by UFO occupants. In fact, the report
includes only one case of the "third kind" (CE3) involving
direct observation of apparent alien beings. Over half of the
cases are of the "first kind" (CE1), that is, observation of
unusual craft or airborn objects. The rest are of the "second
kind" (CE2) in which the object or encounter left clear physical
evidence behind.

According to this report, the "best evidence" includes:

- "Foo fighters" sighted by WWII fliers during 1944-45, notably
on August 10, 1944 over the Indian Ocean, and December 22, 1944
over Hagenau, Germany;

- Kenneth Arnold's famous sighting of nine aerial objects over
the Cascade Mountains in Washington State on June 24, 1947;

- bold incursions of unidentified craft over several Strategic
Air Command bases during late October and November, 1975,
including Loring AFB in Maine, Wurtsmith AFB in Michigan,
Malmstrom AFB in Montana; Minot AFB in North Dakota and
Falconbridge in Ontario, Canada;

- a "dogfight" between a UFO and two F-4 jets over Tehran, Iran
in 1976;

- the strange sightings in the Rendlesham Forest between
Bentwaters and Woodbridge RAF bases in England in late December,
1980; and

- visual and radar sighting of an aerial object "two times
bigger than an aircraft carrier" by the flight crew of a Japan
Airlines 747 freighter over Alaska on November 17, 1986.

Another of the "best cases" involved photos of a Saturn-shaped
UFO over Trindade Island in the South Atlantic, taken from the
deck of a Brazilian Navy ship on February 21, 1958. Brazilian
president Kubitschek later gave the photos to the press.
Reportedly, extensive testing showed no signs of hoax and the
numerous eyewitnesses included credible military personnel.
However, the U.S. military labeled the case a fake.

On July 28, 1989, a UFO was clearly observed for a period of two
hours over a Russian army missile base at Kapustin Yar,
Astrakhan region. The KGB file on this case detailed the
testimony of seven military witnesses, with drawings. According
to the report, "Observed characteristics are: disc is 4-5 meters
(13-17) feet in diameter, with half-sphere on top which is
brightly lit. It moved sometimes abruptly, but noiselessly, at
times coming down and hovering over the ground at an altitude of
20-60 meters... while over a rocket weapons depot, a bright beam
appeared from the bottom of the disc, lighting the corner of one
of the buildings, lasting for several seconds."

Also highlighted in the briefing document is the extensive
series of sightings and aerial encounters over Belgium in 1989
and 1990. Numerous drawings and photos by witnesses show a huge
triangular shaped craft with bright lights at each corner. In
several instances, the UFOs showed on multiple military radars
simulatneously, including both airborn and ground-based
installations. F-16 jets were sent aloft to engage the UFOs but
found that the strange objects could perform maneuvers that
would probably kill a human pilot. Belgian military spokesman,
Major General (then Colonel) Wilfred De Brouwer, stated on
television that the observed behavior of the objects was
"outside the performance envelope" of any known aircraft and
could not be explained.

One of the most unusual reported encounters of the "second kind"
took place at mid-day on May 20, 1967, near Falcon Lake,
Manitoba, Canada. Amateur prospector Steven Michalak reported
seeing two glowing red objects hovering in the air. One flew
away while the other landed nearby. Michalak said it appeared
oval and disk-shaped and was about 35 feet in diameter and
twelve feet high.

While he was observing the craft, a door opened and he heard
voices coming from inside. He tried communicating in several
languages, but got no reply and saw no one. He approached the
craft and saw intensely brilliant light coming from within.
Moments later, the door suddenly closed. Then a blast of hot air
hit Michalak in the chest, emitting from an "exhaust vent." His
shirt caught fire. As he ripped off his burning clothes and
stumbled back, the craft took off. Within moments, Michalak had
a pounding headache and nausea. He staggered back to his nearby
motel, vomiting along the way.

In the following weeks, Michalak developed numerous symptoms of
radiation sickness. He was eventually examined by 27 different
doctors, none of whom could fully account for his condition. Of
particular interest was a geometric pattern of burn marks on
Michalak's chest which, he says, corresponded to the "exhaust
grill" of the UFO. This case was extensively investigated by
Canadian government authorities. The complete official report
has not been released.

As previously noted, the "best available evidence" makes
reference to only one case involving the sighting of unusual
beings, that of police officer Lonnie Zamora near Socorro, New
Mexico, on April 24, 1964. Zamora said he witnessed an egg-
shaped craft on four thin legs, along with two small beings in
white coverall-type outfits, when he went to investigate an
apparent explosion in a rural area outside of Socorro. Zamora
said he saw the craft take off and fly away moments before the
arrival of his backup, Sgt. Sam Chavez. Then, he and Chavez went
down to the landing site and found abundant physical evidence
that something had been there. This case is undoubtedly one of
the best-documented, best-attested CE3 cases on record. Even a
classified memo to the CIA, recently declassified, mentioned
this case as the "best" of its kind that Air Force Project Blue
Book ever found.

ISCNI thinks it odd, however, that this important report on
"best available evidence" does not list any other cases
involving the claim of "aliens." Apparently, the authors and
sponsors of this project intend to maximize their credibility by
minimizing any sensational aspects of the subject. ISCNI hopes
this approach proves successful where other approaches have so
far failed.

We will continue to report on this story as new information
becomes available.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--- FMail/386 1.02
 * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence BBS (1:261/1201)

<<<>>>



Date: 05-30-96 (08:35)
  To: All
From: John Powell
Subj: More Rocky UFOs
Conf: Fd_Bama

   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ROCKEFELLER NOT BELIEVER, BUT WANTS END TO UFO SECRETS
Marie Galbraith Explains Rationale For New UFO Report

[The following text is excerpted from a story that appeared in
the New York Observer on April 8 under the title, "Rockefeller
Greets Aliens! A Rich Guy's UFO Dream." For a detailed
discussion of the contents of the Rockefeller-funded
"Unidentified Flying Objects Briefing Document: The Best
Available Evidence," see ISCNI*Flash 2.2, April 1, 1996.]

"You know, there are 200 billion star systems in the galaxy, and
there are 200 billion galaxies in the universe," said Marie
[Bootsie] Galbraith, a trim blonde woman in her 50's, as she
reclined in her sun-dappled, sparsely furnished office on
Madison Avenue, her diamond bagatelle rings flashing. She lifted
her blue eyes heavenward. "We're just a little zilch."

But some zilches have deeper pockets than others. Last year,
Mrs. Galbraith, who is married to Evan Galbraith, the investment
banker and former Ambassador to France, went to Laurance
Rockefeller, the 85-year-old environmental activist and venture
capitalist, and got him to fund a 169-page document titled
"Unidentified Flying Objects Briefing Document: The Best
Available Evidence." The report was co-authored by Mrs.
Galbraith and Virginia-based aviation writer Don Berliner, who
is affiliated with the Fund for UFO Research. [UFO researcher
Antonio Huneeus is also listed as a co-author. - ed.]

In an interview in her office, [Mrs.] Galbraith discussed Nikola
Tesla and Albert Einstein, Westinghouse and General Electric,
secret weather balloons and photographs of alien autopsies on
the Internet. "We have to challenge basic assumptions," she
said.

She is distributing her report to "leaders of the world."

"We're only giving it to really top people," said Mr. Berliner.
"Not ordinary people like you and me. I guess the only reason I
have a copy is I wrote the thing."

In the acknowledgments page, Laurance Rockefeller is listed
first, "for his vision and support, financial and otherwise."

Fraser Seitel, Mr. Rockefeller's spokesman, confirmed that Mr.
Rockefeller funded the report at a cost of around $30,000. But
he said that Mr. Rockefeller did not endorse the findings. "He
is interested in Government disclosure of reported activities in
this area," said Mr. Seitel. "Laurance's feeling is that he is
not convinced one way or the other. But he is interested in
learning what the Government has on file... He's really quite an
eclectic person."

Mr. Seitel said Mr. Rockefeller would not comment on the report.

In recent years, Mr. Rockefeller has become known as a supporter
of eclectic ventures. He funded embattled Harvard psychiatrist
John E. Mack, whose work with alleged alien abductees was loudly
criticized last May by his colleagues at Harvard. In fact, from
1993 to 1995, Dr. Mack's Cambridge-based, nonprofit research
institute, the Center for Psychology and Social Change, received
about $250,000 a year from Mr. Rockefeller.

According to Michael Luckman, director of the New York Center
for UFO Research, Mr. Rockefeller has financed at least two
recent meetings of a group called the Starlight Coalition, which
Mr. Luckman said is "composed of former intelligence officers
and military officials from the Pentagon who are prepared to
talk about extraterrestrial contact."

Mr. Luckman said Mr. Rockefeller has also held a UFO conference
on his JY Ranch in Jackson Hole, Wyoming.

"He's primarily interested in conservation and the environment,
and venture capital," said Mr. Seitel. "He's also interested in
the whole area of spirituality." Mr. Rockefeller majored in
philosophy at Princeton, Mr. Seitel pointed out.

As the sons of John D. Rockefeller Jr., the brothers --
 Laurance, John D. III, Nelson, Winthrop and David -- strode the
earth as business and political titans. Nelson served as
Republican governor of New York; David ran the Chase Manhattan
Bank. Now, only two brothers remain; David, who is in the
process of buying back Rockefeller Center from Mitsubishi, and
Laurance.

Born in 1910, Laurance was a pioneer of venture capital in the
1940's. In the 1950's and 1960's, he was a champion of
environmental causes, serving as the director of the Outdoor
Recreation Resources and Review Commission under President
Kennedy. In 1965, Mr. Rockefeller traveled the country with Lady
Bird Johnson on her "beautification bus" as part of the Task
Force on Natural Beauty. But he began to draw criticism from
environmentalists in the late 1960's for developing resorts in
the Virgin Islands, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Vermont and Yellowstone
National Park, under the cloak of conservation.

Mrs. Galbraith said she approached Mr. Rockefeller last year to
provide the backing for her report. As an early supporter of the
Office of Alternative Medicine at the National Institutes of
Health, Mrs. Galbraith saw her role in the UFO debate as a
promoter of "frontier science," which she described as "science
that is on the cutting edge, like cold-fusion study, unified
field theory, anything that has to do with people working on
integrative devices." She paused. "It is a science which is
heavily challenged, so it has to prove itself more
dramatically."

The report is indeed a dramatic document. "Secrecy, like power,
lends itself to abuse," reads the opening chapter, titled
"Government Secrecy." "Behind the shield of secrecy, it is
possible for an agency or service to avoid scrutiny and
essentially to operate outside the law. Accountability to the
taxpayers and to the Congress can be conveniently avoided."

The second part of the report consists of case histories of UFO
sightings around the world: "'Foo Fighters' Over Europe and
Asia" in the 1940's; "U.F.O. Dogfight Over Tehran"; the "U.F.O.
Sighting Wave in Belgium" in 1989-90; "Multiple Witness Case at
Russian Missile Base" in 1989.

In the third part of the report, government spokesmen and
politicians are quoted on the subject of UFOs. "I can assure you
that flying saucers, given that they exist, are not constructed
by any power on earth," Harry S. Truman is quoted as saying on
April 4, 1950, at a White House press conference.

The report concludes, "When studied as a group, these case
histories exhibit clear patterns which strongly suggest that
they belong to a distinct new class of phenomena, rather than
being a formless collection of disparate observational errors...
It is this large quantity of evidence of the existence of
something completely baffling which motivates many of us to urge
the governments of the world to release all they know about UFOs
so that the people of the world, and especially scientists, can
begin to come to grips with a mystery that has far too long been
subjected to secrecy and ridicule."

"Our goal is to have elected officials decide what is secret and
what is not," said Mrs. Galbraith. "Because now the bureaucrats
keep all the secrets. They don't even keep the Congress and the
President informed."

However, Mrs. Galbraith added, "I think to be skeptical is
extremely healthy because I was, when I started out. Only
because I've just been with the head of the Belgian Air Force
and the head of French intelligence do I take it seriously now."

=3D=3D+++=3D=3D=3D+++=3D=3D=3D+++=3D=3D=3D+++=3D=3D=3D+++=3D=3D=3D+++=3D=3D=
=3D+++=3D=3D=3D+++=3D=3D=3D+++=3D=3D



--- FMail/386 1.02
 * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence BBS (1:261/1201)

<<<>>>


Date: 05-30-96 (08:36)
  To: All
From: John Powell
Subj: Who Is Rocky
Conf: Fd_Bama

Who is Laurance Rockefeller?
by Alex Constantine

Laurance, vetted  by the US Naval Reserve, rose to the rank of
lieutenant commander during the war, assigned to the Bureau of
Aeronautics as liaison between the Navy and aircraft production
plants - despite huge financial investments in Hitler's
Holocaust machine by family-owned businesses, as documented by
George Seldes and Charles Higham - who dreamed of transforming
the postwar world with advancements in communications, nuclear
power, aviation and computers. The defense industry fostered
experimentation with new technologies and they intrigued
Laurance Rockefeller, especially those with the potential to
significantly transform everyday life.

When Hitler's Germany rolled out the armaments to flatten
Europe, young R ockefeller launched into an intense study of
military aviation. He joined the Institute of  Aeronautical
Sciences, was a director of Eastern Airlines and a trustee of
Air Affairs, a quarterly international journal. Laurance and his
brother Winthrop mustered the Air Youth of America, an aviation
training program.

Laurance may have been less visible than his brothers, but he
was equally steeped in the sordid world of covert intelligence
and disinformation. In the 1950s, he served on a panel that
released a report penned by Henry Kissinger, International
Security - The Military Aspect, calling for successive
escalations in defense spending  of $3 billion per year to 1965.
In 1973 he was named a director of Reader's Digest, a fount of
CIA cold war black propaganda. (To indulge in a bit of necessary
guilt by association, Melvin Laird, a Digest  officer, is also a
director of SAIC, the "remote viewing" sponsor.) Rockefeller is
a trustee of MIT, a director of the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation,
Olin Mathieson, etc., etc7

Renato Vesco traced  immediate postwar development of the Nazi
saucers to the UK. Vesco, the Italian Werner von Braun, plodded
through a detailed investigation of the technology transfer in
Intercept, but Don't Shoot, published in 1967. British defense
officials, he discovered, hoped to barter advancements in saucer
propulsion and design to the United States in exchange for
classified nuclear research data. A priority was placed on
making the saucers faster, leading to experimentation with a
number of rocket propulsion systems. Wind tunnel tests
demonstrated the disks could easily slip through the sound
barrier when the friction layer was drawn through a multitude of
pinholes punched in the hull. Normally, the layer of air that
builds along an aircraft's surface slows it down. The air
pulling on the craft, otherwise known as the buoyant layer, was
eliminated in the saucer design with suction along the entire
surface of the vehicle, in place of the conventional jet design.
The pinholes sucked away the buoyant layer and pumped the air
through a thruster, like an ordinary jet.

When the war ended Laurance was off to Europe, according to
Alvin Moscow's sanitized Rockefeller biography, "to examine the
latest British experiments with jet propulsion for military
aircraft. He looked into the technology of the German Rockets
used in the blitz of London." The author doesn't mention a visit
to the British Air Force saucer section, but if developments
were shared with anyone, it was Laurance Rockefeller, the most
influential military aerospace scion in the country.

Laurance and his namesake progeny have been lavish godfathers to
UFOlogy organizations that attribute saucer overflights and
abductions to the "alien" invasion.

A panoply of aircraft defense firms swelled with an infusion of
funds from Laurance Rockefeller. The most imposing is McDonnell-
Douglas, founded in 1930 by a prodigy of aircraft design, James
S. McDonnell of St. Louis. McDonnell shares with Laurance
Rockefeller the taint of war profiteering. Periodic postwar
investigations of his aircraft company by the General Accounting
Office have exposed a deep, chronically overfunded well of
fraud. In 1967 the company merged with Douglas Aircraft, the
primary subcontractor of Western Electric, a subsidiary of AT&T.

Howver cerebral, James McDonnell had one foot firmly planted in
the occult. He was a principal donor to the famed J.B. Rhine
psychic research center at Duke University, a forerunner of Psi-
Tech, and supported psychic experimentation at Washington
University in St. Louis.

Professor Rhine and his wife Louisa joined the faculty of Duke
University in 1927 to explore the paranormal with Dr. William
McDougall, chairman of the  psychology department. In a few
years, according to Parapsychological Institute  literature,
"Dr. Rhine was conducting the groundbreaking research that
demonstrated under rigorous, scientific conditions that certain
persons could acquire information without the use of the known
senses. He introduced the term extrasensory perception (ESP) to
describe this ability and adopted the word parapsychology to
distinguish his experimental approach from other methods of
psychical research."

Among the key early supporters of the Rhine ESP center was
Medtronics, a medical technology firm in Minneapolis. The
connection is chilling in the context of forced human
experimentation. Bear in mind the horrors of the surgical table
described by abductees, circled by "alien" doctors, when paging
through the Medtronics catalog: "The company's neurological
business produces implantable systems for spinal cord
stimulation and drug delivery.... The Itrel II spinal cord
stimulation system is the most advanced and flexible implantable
neurostimulation device on the market today."

Another financial supporter of the Rhine center was insurance
magnate W. Clement Stone, whose name was the very first on
Richard Nixon's list of presidential campaign contributors.

[ ... ]

Excerpt from "Virtual Government"
by Alex Constantine
1996


--- FMail/386 1.02
 * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence BBS (1:261/1201)

<<<>>>







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 18

                Re: Wendy Conners On SDI Last Night - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:34:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:55:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Wendy Conners On SDI Last Night - Connors


>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:06:47 -0400
>Subject: Re: Wendy Conners On SDI Last Night

<snip>

Thank you, John for the lovely kudos. As I stated to you and EBK
last night, it always hurts knowing that researchers cannot
really solve or help as much as we would like when dealing with
the abductions taking place. We can only gather the data and
keep it ready for a time when we might be able to accomplish the
answers to this problem that ruins so many lives.

The compilation was made for you and all other abductees. It is
your audio history. When you decided to "retire" from
participation in the field, we all lost a great deal. I know you
and others feel that nobody is listening, but we really do...
it's just that we are as powerless as the abductees. But never
think we are not paying attention, even when you don't get a
response. You constantly keep us aware and make us probe as we
continue research.

Yes, I did use the logo and for those on the List, John designed
it and EBK hosts and maintains my website. I am truly grateful
to both of you because even though I've tried to do websites of
my own in the past, I'm just a complete Ditz when it comes to
websites. Best I stick with earphones on my head and preserving
the audio history. It means a great deal to me that you both (
and the many unsung researchers who send me recordings to share)
support my lonely efforts to bring Ufology's audio history to
everyone.


With All Best Wishes,

Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 18

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:00:30 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:56:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Kelly Freeman <Khfflsciufo.nul>
>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:03:55 EDT
>Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:34:37 -0400
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

<snip>

>As a final note, I don't know about anybody else, but I
consider
>the terms "kidnapped by space aliens" or just "space aliens"
>demeaning in nature and we should encourage a more objective
>description, such as 'unknown entities'.


I agree, the term is entirely inappropriate, and McNally's claim
that it is to distinguish the aliens from "Mexicans" is weak.

The modifier of "space" is intended to play to the readers'
preconceived notions of what they assume the subjects describe,
rather than to accurately reflect the opinions of the subjects
in McNally's study itself (or present day theories about aliens
for that matter!).

In truth, the subjects would probably attest to their having
been very much on earth when their alien contact occurred
(obviously), and to lacking any definitive knowledge about where
the aliens are from - other than general impressions that they
don't seem to be from around here, and that they sometimes try
to  give the impression that are from another world.

"Space" is just a nod to the cliche. This is why skeptics
organizations use it as a modifier - it helps keep the
discussion rooted in the 1950s theories. Avoids the entirely
interdimensional discussion that started in the 1980s (when
experiencers' accounts were at last seen to be more complex than
assumed) and continues today.

"Space aliens" is just a damn silly term that one wouldn't
expect a professional to use in a formal report. But the
"probing" pun used in headlines ("Harvard research probes
memories of alien contact") is probably worse, for such
headlines are akin to writing a headline that says "Incest
Victims Cock-Sure about their Father's Abuse."







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 18

                Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:23:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:58:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Hatch


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:49:48 -0700
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:49:52 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

><snip>

>>I must be missing something here. Is anyone suggesting that
>>'burnt vegetation' would be in evidence some 57 years after the
>>original events (crash retrieval etc.) dating from 1947?

>Larry,

>Yes, the desert vegetation changes very slowly. The Walnut
trees and the cottonwood tree are at least 100 years old. The
burn and scorch marks are apparent and noticeable but seem
somewhat weathered, as you'd expect. These trees are still alive
but the heat damage clearly seen.

>>I would think that any traces of burnt vegetation would have
>>blown away, been scoured away in a sandstorm, washed away in the
>>rare torrential rains etc. long long since.

>The immediate area only gets a few inches of rain a year and
sometimes, nothing at all. The wind is a factor but hasn't
erased the evidence. I would say that this area hasn't changed
much in the last 57 years. The biggest land modifications are
caused by the cattle that wander around the site. The
cristobalite is impervious to alteration.

Ah!  Scorch marks still apparent. If there is any black
carbon residue (hard ash) then samples could be carefully
scraped off and collected. Great care must be taken not
to remove any living or recently dead tissues.

Then, being almost all carbon, maybe it could be carbon dated!
Somebody else's expertise needed here, way out of my bailiwick]

I don't know what the margins of error are in such testing, or
whether half a century is long enough for good results.
Hopefully, they could date the scorching back to 57 years plus
or minus a few, rather than say half or double that span.

Frankly, scorched trees in the desert, in close association with
glassified minerals as described, sound like nothing so much as
a massive bolt of lightning, or ten, or any number of them over
years, decades.....

Nothing uncommon about that in New Mexico. There was supposedly
a thunderstorm going on at the time per Mac Brazel if memory
serves.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 18

              Re: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents -

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:42:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:01:00 -0400
Subject: Re: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents -


>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:12:03 -0700
>Subject: Re: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents

>>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:08:57 -0400
>>Subject: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents

>>I've recently acquired what is most likely the largest
>>collection of declassified CIA documents regarding the STARGATE
>>Remote Viewing program.

>>This collection totals 14 CD Roms of documentation in both OCR'd
>>text format as well as .tif format, for a total of over 10,000
>>pages of documents spanning 20+ years of the remote viewing
>>program. Each CD includes an index to the files included on them
>>in .dat format.

>>In due time I will make these indexes available for review at
>>michiganufos.com but I've yet to decide how to make the files
>>themselves available to the public.

>>It will be interesting to see how this documentation stacks up
>>to what has been disclosed by those who have chosen to go public
>>with their involvement in this program.

>Todd,

>Do you know if any of the documents pertain to the Stanford
Research Institute program at all?


Royce,

Those documents that I've looked at so far almost all pertain to
SRI.


Todd








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 18

                    Re: Daytime UFOs Video Taped - Taylor

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:36:18 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:03:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Daytime UFOs Video Taped - Taylor


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:28:49 -0500
>Subject: Re: Daytime UFOs Video Taped

>>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:59:01 +1000
>>Subject: Re: Daytime UFOs Video Taped

>>Just to inform you that still images and video clip of the July
>>8th. daytime sighting are now available to download. This
>video clip will only be available for a short time then removed.

>>The clip will show you how the 'cluster' UFOs move around
>while in flight. The red object is very interesting. Frame grabs
>from the video show the attached dark spheres and enhancements
>show the energy surrounding the objects.

>>Clip size - 5Mb (43 seconds) in Windows Media Video >format.
>
>>http://theozfactor.cjb.net/july2004.htm
>
>>Your responses welcomed.

>Very compelling video, Barry! My first impression was
>balloons, but the video makes it appear that the objects are
>stationary and spinning about a regular axis. If I may ask a few
>additional questions...

>Is the downloadable video we see the full frame of the video
>camera, or was the download altered to "stabilize" the object in
>the frame?

The clips were stabilized then zoomed to the size seen in the
clip. Stabilization allows better zooms therefore closer look at
the object. Motion blur if associated during the hand held
filming can distort the object showing elongation. Luckerly
there was no motion blur with these objects.

>Does the video camera used include "image stabilization"
>features, and were they in use.

No, the analogue camera used on this object has no steady shot
feature. The Hi-8 camera I used on the object with the brown halo
did have steady shot and was mounted on a tri-pod. I am currently
analyzing this footage. It is not as impressive as the red object
though.

>What is the significance of the "time stamp" visible in a few
>frames around 42 seconds into the clip?

Hand held camera and me peeping around the camera to get a
visual of the object overhead while filming, results in the
object jumping around in the frame. The stabilization results in
that part of the frame coming into view. The object is centred
and the frame moves to fit.

>If the raw footage is available in digital form, is it possible
>to provide it?

The problem is that the USA uses NTSC video format and we use
PAL. I would have to convert to progressive scan so as to burn
on CD or DVD. Then you could play on your computer.

I will be producing a second UFO video over the next few months
that will include the original footage plus the full
enhancements with explanations. If you can wait until then, you
will have it all. I will make copies suitable to be played on
computer for the US on DVD - no NTSC video format.


Barry Taylor








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 18

              Re: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents -

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:19:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:05:58 -0400
Subject: Re: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:37:10 EDT
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents

>>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:08:57 -0400
>>Subject: STARGATE Declassified Government Documents

>>I've recently acquired what is most likely the largest
>>collection of declassified CIA documents regarding the STARGATE
>>Remote Viewing program.

>>This collection totals 14 CD Roms of documentation in both
>>OCR'd text format as well as .tif format, for a total of over
>>10,000 pages of documents spanning 20+ years of the remote
>>viewing program. Each CD includes an index to the files included
>>on them in .dat format.

>>In due time I will make these indexes available for review at
>>michiganufos.com but I've yet to decide how to make the files
>>themselves available to the public.

>>It will be interesting to see how this documentation stacks up
>>to what has been disclosed by those who have chosen to go public
>>with their involvement in this program.

>Wow! Todd Lemire, that's what I call impressive to say the
>least!

>Guess I just got taught how to do things the right way!

>The suspense! The suspense!


Hi Greg,

I'm adding the index files to my site as I write this. I was
wrong with the previous numbers in my earlier message. The Star
Gate collection comprises 11,985 documents totaling 89,901
pages.


Todd








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 18

                          Secrecy News -- 07/12/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:10:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:07:21 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/12/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 64
July 12, 2004


**      SECRECY AND THE FAILURE OF INTELLIGENCE
**      SEEKING THE PROPER BOUNDARIES OF NUCLEAR SECRECY
**      RELEASE OF IG REPORTS ON FBI TRANSLATION PROGRAM SOUGHT
**      SOME NEW CRS PRODUCTS
**      VOICE TO SKULL:  MORE ARMY WEB SHENANIGANS


SECRECY AND THE FAILURE OF INTELLIGENCE

The errors, inadequacies and deceptions of U.S. intelligence
regarding Iraqi weapons of mass destruction were aggravated by
excessive secrecy, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
found in its new report.

The abuse of secrecy is a leitmotif in the latest critique on
intelligence, as in its many of its predecessors.

So, for example, the Senate Committee observes in its Conclusion
6:

"Another significant problem found by the Committee is the fact
that the CIA continues to excessively compartment sensitive
HUMINT [human intelligence] reporting and fails to share
important information about HUMINT reporting and sources with
Intelligence Community analysts who have a need to know."

"In the years before Operation Iraqi Freedom, the CIA protected
its Iraq weapons of mass destruction sources so well that some
of the information they provided was kept from the majority of
analysts with a legitimate need to know."

Excessive secrecy not only impeded information sharing but also
made it more difficult to detect analytical errors or
policymaker exaggerations once they had occurred.  Furthermore,
secrecy obstructed external oversight, with costs that are well
known.

Because it is a systemic failure, information policy within the
intelligence bureaucracy would be a promising point of departure
for intelligence reform.

More than any other structural or organizational change, pursuit
of a revised information policy could optimize the existing
strengths of intelligence and combat its debilitating
weaknesses.

"As vital as secrecy is to intelligence," said Acting Director of
Central Intelligence John E. McLaughlin in a June 23 speech, "it
must never become a wall that prevents an open, honest dialogue
with the American public."

But then he added defensively and inaccurately: "And it has not."

The National Security Archive (www.nsarchive.org) reported last
week that the CIA has continued to withhold almost all of the
2002 National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq's weapons of mass
destruction programs, as if "an open, honest dialogue with the
American public" could now be conducted without reference to
this key document.

A copy of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence "Report on
the U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Intelligence
Assessments on Iraq" is available here:

     http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2004_rpt/index.html


SEEKING THE PROPER BOUNDARIES OF NUCLEAR SECRECY

A new research paper asks what sorts of nuclear weapons
information should be secret, what should be public, and exactly
where the line between the two should be drawn.

"Future progress in nuclear arms control and disarmament will be
strongly dependent on an increase of transparency of
nuclear-weapons-related information," writes author Annette
Schaper of the Peace Research Institute in Frankfurt, Germany.

"This report aims to identify technical information that is
relevant for nuclear verification, to discover whether it is
publicly available or secret, and then to identify where the
ideal demarcation line between secrecy and transparency might
lie."

See "Looking for a Demarcation between Nuclear Transparency and
Nuclear Secrecy" by Dr. Annette Schaper, PRIF Reports No. 68,
Frankfurt am Main, 2004:

     http://www.hsfk.de/downloads/PRIF-68.pdf


RELEASE OF IG REPORTS ON FBI TRANSLATION PROGRAM SOUGHT

Senators Patrick Leahy (D-VT) and Charles Grassley (R-IA) asked
the Department of Justice to prepare declassified versions of
two newly completed Inspector General reports on the FBI
translation program, including a review of allegations by former
FBI Sibel Edmonds.

"Two years after the allegations made by Ms. Edmonds triggered
two investigations, we are no closer to determining the scope of
the problem, the pervasiveness and seriousness of FBI problems
in this area, or what the FBI intends to do to rectify personnel
shortages, security issues, translation inaccuracies and other
problems that have plagued the translator program for years,"
the Senators wrote.

"While the needs of national security must be weighed seriously,
we fear that the designation of information as classified in
some cases serves to protect the executive branch against
embarrassing revelations and full accountability. We hope that
is not the case here. Releasing declassified versions of these
reports, or at least portions or summaries, would serve the
public's interest, increase transparency, promote effectiveness
and efficiency at the FBI, and facilitate Congressional
oversight."

See their July 9 letter here:

     http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2004_cr/leahy070904.html


SOME NEW CRS PRODUCTS

Under the current regime, Americans are not permitted to have
direct online access to Congressional Research Service reports
through the CRS website.  Members of the public may request a
copy of any CRS report they like, but no list of CRS titles is
made available by Congress from which they could select reports
of interest to request.

An election is coming.

In the meantime, here are several new or updated CRS reports on
national security policy topics.

"Terrorism and National Security: Issues and Trends," CRS Issue
Brief, updated July 6, 2004:

     http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/IB10119.pdf

"The USA Patriot Act: A Sketch," updated June 10, 2004:

     http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS21203.pdf

"USA Patriot Act Sunset: Provisions That Expire on December 31,
2005," updated June 10, 2004:

     http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32186.pdf

"Homeland Security: Coast Guard Operations -- Background and
Issues for Congress," updated July 1, 2004:

     http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RS21125.pdf

"Homeland Security: Department Organization and Management
-- Implementation Phase," updated May 27, 2004:

     http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RL31751.pdf

"Privacy Protection: Mandating New Arrangements to Implement and
Assess Federal Privacy Policy and Practice," updated May 27,
2004:

     http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RS21851.pdf

"Air Force FB-22 Bomber Concept," May 26, 2004:

     http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RS21848.pdf


VOICE TO SKULL:  MORE ARMY WEB SHENANIGANS

The Center for Army Lessons Learned (CALL) at Fort Leavenworth
has encoded more of its public website in such a way as to
discourage printing, saving or copying of its contents.

Besides the "On Point" report on the Iraq war that was previously
described in Secrecy News (07/07/04), CALL has also taken the
trouble to restrict reproduction of its Thesaurus of military
terms.

Normal print, save and copy functions are defeated by Java
scripting that is embedded in the pages of the Thesaurus.
Nevertheless, the text still can be captured with some effort.

See, for example, this FAS copy of a Javascript-disabled CALL
Thesaurus page which addresses the peculiar subject of "voice to
skull devices" that employ microwave devices to "transmit sound
into the skull of person or animals":

     http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dod/vts.html

The underlying Javascript can be inspected by viewing the source
of the above page (thanks to DG for technical assistance).

The original Army Javascript-enabled version of this page can be
viewed (though not in Mozilla) here:

     http://call.army.mil/products/thesaur_e/00016275.htm

What is the Army up to here?  A request for an explanation was
not immediately answered.  But the CALL Thesaurus title page
includes this notice:

"The CALL Thesaurus is government-owned intellectual property.
Use of this information for the purpose of enhancing any
commercial product is not authorized without written agreement
from this organization."

On the other hand, the CALL web site's security notice states
that "Information presented on this site is considered public
information and may be distributed or copied."

It *may* be distributed or copied.  But the Army is doing its
best to make that difficult.

"The porn industry does the exact same thing to keep non-tech
users from saving images to their hard drives," explained one
well-informed correspondent.




_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
     secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
     http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
     http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 18

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:30:47 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:13:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:12:38 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:03:40 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:36:18 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>Notwithstanding the above, I should make it clear that most of
>>>the abductees with whom I've worked contacted me after my tour
>>>of duty on the British Government's UFO project. From memory, no
>>>more than half a dozen abductees contacted me while I was on the
>>>'UFO Desk'.

>>What exactly do you mean by "the British Government's UFO
>>Project"? You seem to be implying that this was a special
>>operation that was set up purely to investigate and report on
>>UFOs, quite separate from the routine MoD job that a number of
>>other people have done before and after your spell at the desk.
>>Perhaps you could tell us a little more about this 'Project'?

>John,

>What I mean by "The British Government's UFO Project" is the
>work done officially to research and investigate UFOs. The lead
>for this work has always been with the Ministry of Defence and
>the Department has been looking into UFO sightings since 1950.
>As you say, various other people have been involved in this work
>both before and after my tour of duty. I certainly didn't mean
>to imply that there are two parallel projects. There aren't.
>Part of the problem is that various people have described the
>MOD's work here in different ways. References have been made to
>"the UFO desk", while others use the name of the different
>sections that have led on this work over the years: S4, S6, DS8,
>Sec(AS), DAS, etc.

I have recently come across an article in a UFO magazine from
1971, published by a south-east London bases UFO group called
'SIRIUS' The magazine is of the same name. It is a verbatin
transcription of an interview with a Mr Leslie Ackhurst, who
appears to have been a former occupant of Nick Pope's desk at
the Ministry of Defence (MoD):

"The MoD investigates reports of unidentified flying objects
because of possible air defence implications. We treat each
report we receive on its face value, but our experience is, in
fact, that the majority of reports turn out to be
misidentifications of mundane occurances <snip>

"We don't release details to the public. This is not peculiar to
UFO reports; this is under the normal rule that official
information is not generally available to the public. We treat
reports in the same way as we'd treat any correspondence from
the public. In other words, we treat it as private
correspondence between the person reporting and the department.

"If people ask us, we give them figures of reports received and
this kind of thing <snip> the reason we look into them is in case
there is any possible air-defence implication. We've found none,
as a matter of fact, but this is the sole reason we look into
them. We don't look into them for any other reason and therefore
couldn't possibly justify sorting them out and either obtaining
the person's permission for publishing the reports, or
publishing them in such a way that we don't mention individuals'
names. <snip>

<snip>

"We only persue enquiries to the extent that we consider it
justifiable in the context of our interest in air defence <snip>]"

Mark Stenhoof, who conducted the interview, describes Mr
Akhurst's department as dealing with "aircraft noise and
suchlike, besides UFO reports".

Now this low-key bureacratic role seems rather at odds with the
idea of "The British Government's UFO Project", which suggests a
targeted investigation of the UFO phenomenon, perhaps along the
line of the Condon Committee, rather than a by-product of the
department which handles complaints about low-flying RAF
aircraft and the like.

However, "The British Government's UFO Project" does sound much
more impressive if one is trying to establish oneself as the
"Government's UFO Expert", "Britain's Fox Mulder", "The Man
Behind the UK's X-Files", and other similar descriptions which
have attached themselves, one way or another, to Mr Pope.

--

John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                        Biological Hot Spots On Mars?

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:57:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:29:06 -0400
Subject: Biological Hot Spots On Mars?


Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.

Source: Science Frontiers, No. 154 - Jul-Aug, 2004, p. 1

http://www.science-frontiers.com


ASTRONOMY

Biological Hot Spots on Mars?

M.J. Mumma, at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, is expert at
detecting trace gases in the atmospheres of other planets via
the spectroscope. Recently, he has combined the results from two
earth-based infrared telescopes to sort out the gaseous
components of the Martian atmosphere. While Mars' gaseous
envelope is predominantly CO[2], it also contains traces of
methane (CH[4]). Traces, yes, but still in quantities that
strongly suggest biological sources. Furthermore, the Martian
methane is concentrated over one of the two regions near the
equator that are extraordinarily rich in water concealed just
below the surface.


Van Flandern, T.; "Yet Another Life Indicator on Mars," *Meta
Research Bulletin*, 13:15, March 15, 2004. Also:

http://www.grego.nul


[Science Frontiers is a bimonthly collection of digests of
scientific anomalies in the current literature. Published by the
Sourcebook Project, P.O. Box 107, Glen Arm, MD 21057. Annual
subscription: $8.00.]


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

              Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:57:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:32:32 -0400
Subject: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?


Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.

Science Frontiers, No. 154, Jul-Aug, 2004, pp. 1 & 2

Source: http://www.science-frontiers.com


ASTRONOMY

Could We *Really* Be At The Center of The Universe?

Newly published data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS),
led by Max Tegmark of the University of Pennsylvania, shows that
our galaxy is centered on a great concentric distribution of
galaxies.

The foregoing quotation is based upon an ambitious astronomical
survey effort involving more than 200 astronomers at 13
institutions. So far, over 200,000 galaxies have been mapped.
The accompanying figure is a two-dimensional, wedge-shaped slice
of this cosmic map. It pinpoints approximately 33,500
galaxies. ...Note the rough concentricity about the earth.

Source: http://www.sdss.org/news/releases/galaxy_zoom.jpg

The roughly concentric distribution of galaxies about the point
of the wedge, which is earth, is inescapable. Also readily
apparent is a decrease in galaxy density with increasing
distance from the earth.

The implications of the SDSS work so far is highly unsettling
for two reasons:

1 - The Cosmological Principle, which demands that the universe
be homogeneous with no favored center, is violated.

2 - The earth *does* seem to be at center of the observable
universe contrary to the adamant philosophical declaration of
science that the earth and its cargo are insignificant in the
Grand Scheme of Things---whatever *that* is!

(Hartnett, John; "New Evidence: We Really Are at the Centre of
the Universe," *TJ*, 18:9, no. 1, 2004. TJ = Technical Journal.)

Comments. The accompanying SDSS map is consistent with the long-
claimed quantization of redshifts. (SF#105)

It is possible that astronomers misinterpret redshifts as
yardsticks thereby invalidating the SDSS maps.

No one yet knows whether the earth might also be at the center
of the distributions of dark matter and dark energy - assuming
they exist and are not uniformly dispersed.


[Science Frontiers is a bimonthly collection of digests of
scientific anomalies in the current literature. Published by the
Sourcebook Project, P.O. Box 107, Glen Arm, MD 21057. Annual
subscription: $8.00.]


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress."
Copyright 1992, Frank Rice








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                UFOs Reported in Gobernador Ugarte Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:56:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:35:14 -0400
Subject: UFOs Reported in Gobernador Ugarte Argentina


Source: La Manana Newspaper - Buenos Aires, Argentina
Date: 07/13/04

UFOs SEEN OVER 25 DE MAYO
**More sightings this weekend in Gobernador Ugarte***

The UFO phenomenon in the region of Gobernador Ugarte, parish of
25 de Mayo, is ongoing. Strange lights and maneuvers were
reported this past weekend. One worker told the strange story of
how the lights on his truck turned on and off by themselves as
he stopped at a local ranch. Some residents say this is quite
normal in the area while others express their fears.

LA MANANA spoke yesterday to Hector Labaronne, who has been
filming UFOs for some three years now with his family. The "La
Esperanza" ranch is where the greatest number of sightings and
ground prints have been reported in recent times. This family
possesses over five hours of video recordings of the lights and
objects that appear in the night skies. The signficance of these
events has led to the screening on August 16th at 20:00 hrs. in
the Sala Pablo Picasso of Capital Federal (Buenos Aires) of a 90
minute video of the Ugarte sightings.

- How long have you been recording UFOs?

More than three years now. The video to be shown in Buenos Aires
is part of the five hours we've recorded. Almost all of the
images are similar, except that some are on different days and
nights.

- How long since the last sighting?

We saw lights last night (Sunday), also on Saturday, and there
are some things that occur that are beyond the norm. For
example, last Friday, one of the rangers who lives in a shed had
a strange experience. At around 1 a.m., he saw a light, went
outside, and realized that his truck's lights were on. He went
to turn them off, but noticed that the pickup truck's lights
weren't on. The light went out in the meantime. He thought it
could be a loose wire and went to bed again. About an hour later
he woke up to find his lights were on. This happened four times
successively. He didn't go out after that because he was scared.
The next day he remarked about this event and some people told
him that there are "flying saucers" in the skies over this area,
or that strange lights are seen. He says that when he went to
bed, he could feel as though someone was running at the edge of
the shack. We still don't know what it is, but we're sure
there's something to it. This happened at the "La Esperanza"
ranch.

- Are you accustomed to these strange happenings?

I see so many lights that we sometimes don't record them,
because they look like the ones we already have. What I always
want is to see what they are up close, which hasn't happened
yet. The closest [they came] was 300 meters. The best days are
when the sky is clear.

- Do people come to see this phenomenon?

There are many people who come to see this phenomenon and keep
doing it. We sometimes don't have any contact with them because
they seek the other locations. We always go to the same ranch.
The lights fly right over Ugarte--many people of that town are
seeing them. Since it is a normal occurrence, no one pays them
much attention. A low-flying red light 100 meters over Ugarte is
a normal thing.

- What time of year does this occur the most?

The colder it gets, the lower they fly. They can move some 30-40
centimeters over the ground. They don't leave traces. What we
see are lights and sometimes a solid object behind them, like a
suspended deep bowl. We've had them close, but when we get
closer they move away--that happens always. They don't come over
to where we are. They always avoid us.

- Are all the sightings in this area similar>?

Yes. Many people are afraid. Not me, because if they'd wanted to
do something to us, they would've done it already.

- What do you think about the presentation to be held in Buenos
Aires?

It's great that this video should be presented in Capital
Federal, since it has some very good images. This phenomenon is
taking place everywhere. What happens here is that it occurs
more often. I don't know why they like this place. People from
Buenos Aires, La Plata, Cordoba- everywhere, have come to
Ugarte.

The words of Hector Labaronne reflect what this family has
experienced in recent years along with other residents of
Ugarte. As this newspaper reported a few days ago, major UFO
researchers have visited Ugarte.

The Fundaci=F3n Argentina de Ovnilogia (FAO) has performed studies
in he area since July 4, 2002, when senior official Aragon=E9s
indicated that he had seen UFOs in the area. At this time the
national media drew attention to the cattle mutilations taking
place in different parts of the country, cases which also
occurred in Ugarte.

Research and eyewitness accounts have revealed sightings in
previous decades. In the 1950's, personnel from Estancia San
Jose del Socorro reported the surprising appearance of several
circular marks near a eucalyptus forest. In the summer of 1971,
a 12 year old boy witnessed the low-altitude flight of a strange
aerial artifact. In the mid 1990's a local resident claimed
having been taken aboard a spacecraft, providing details of his
experience and showing marks on his arms.


Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 28

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:27:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:43:09 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 28


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 28
July 14, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


FIREBALLS SIGHTED BY
THOUSANDS IN DIXIE

      Luminous objects described as "fireballs" were seen
by thousands of people in the southern USA last week.
      The flap began Monday, July 5, 2004, in Clearwater,
Florida (population 108,787) at 1 a.m.  Eyewitness Tarey
Wolf reported, "The UFOs approached from the north.  About
1 a.m. I was floating in my pool and saw three semi-
transparent objects in formation.  I almost through they
were ghostly-looking birds, then I realized they were
craft."
      The objects "were semi-transparent, ghostly,
cylindrical with small wing-like protrusions.  They went
in and out of clouds, and it seemed like they were trying
to match the nighttime cloud cover but were unsuccessful.
Very fast from one horizon to the other."
      On Thursday, July 8, 2004, Tarey's roommate "at about
3 a.m. let the dog out and noticed a very bright star,
like seven planets in conjunction.  It was stationary,
though, not moving.  It was big and round and bright."
      On Tuesday, July 6, 2004, "two witnesses reported
seeing what is described as a large green fireball over
the town of Elk City, Oklahoma (population 10,510) at
about 9 p.m.  The object was described as being about the
size of a tennis ball at arm's length.  Its movement was
from northwest to southeast."
      "A meteor shower Wednesday night," July 7, 2004, "lit
up the sky from Texas to western Tennessee, prompting a
flood of reports to law enforcement officials throughout a
five-state region."
      "The lights flashed across the sky shortly after 9
p.m. in portions of Texas, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Louisiana
and Tennessee."
      "A spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration
(FAA) said the sighting was a meteorite, probably
several."
      "'The first part was a fiery red, and it had a
greenish glow behind it and a long red tail,' Barbara
Hayes, who lives in Bossier Parish, Louisiana (population
98,310) told Shreveport, La. television station KSLA-TV."
      "A spokesman for the National Weather Service in Fort
Worth (Texas) said the sightings were not tied to any
weather event."
      "'Whatever the object was, it had to be pretty high
up in the sky and pretty big for such a large number of
people to have seen it,' forecaster Mike Berry of
Shreveport said."
      "Astronomers said Thursday," July 8, 2004, "that a
flying bright object that had plenty of people in several
states perplexed Wednesday was likely a large meteor.  The
meteor burned up at 40 miles above Earth's surface around
9 p.m. on Wednesday," July 7, 2004.
      "Experts said the object was traveling at a speed of
about 30,000 miles per hour (48,000 kilometers per hour)."
      "A video taken by a Texas law enforcement officer
captured the object many were referring to as a 'fireball'
Wednesday night."
      "Reports of meteor sightings poured into newsrooms
and weather centers in portions of Texas, Arkansas,
Oklahoma, Louisiana and Tennessee."
      "Stargazer Bob Moody is a member of the Arkansas-
Oklahoma Astronomical Society.  He was testing a new
telescope at the Coleman Observatory in the hills of Van
Buren, Arkansas (population 18,986) when the meteor passed
overhead."
(Editor's Note: This is the first "Coleman" lexilink this
week, but it won't be the last.)
      "'We saw something in the sky that lit up the ground
like a searchlight,' Moody said, 'I noticed my shadow
first because my back was to it and, as I turned around,
it was just ending its burn...whatever it was.  It was an
extremely bright yellowish bright light.'"
      According to Moody, meteors hit Earth's atmosphere
almost every week.  He said that because Wednesday's
meteor burned up at such a high altitude, it is unlikely
that any fragments of the object made it to the ground."
      "Moody said the largest 'fireball' to pass over the
Arkansas area was recorded in 1920."  (See the Tyler, Tex.
Morning Telegraph for July 8, 2004.  Many thanks to Steve
Wilson Sr., Mary Lou Jones-Drown and Jim Hickman,
executive director of Skywatch International, for these
news stories.)


CHILEAN MAN ATTACKED
BY DOG-LIKE HUMANOIDS

      "Juan Acuna looks scared.  He first runs away from
the press and then argues that he's tired of telling his
story to the press out of a fear that no one will believe
him, anyway."
      "The fact of the matter is that around 2 a.m. on
Sunday," July 4, 2004, "he went to drop off his brother-
in-law and, on his return home, he lived through an
indescribable situation that he still cannot understand."
      "'I was on my way to the smallhold where I live, and
two animals crossed my path--a large one and a small one.
One bit my leg while the other went for my face.  I
shielded myself with my arm to defend myself.  Later I
jumped into the Fiscal Canal" on the outskirts of Parral,
near Temuco in southern Chile, "and managed to come up in
front of my brother-in-law's house, with my clothing all
ripped.  They called the ambulance, and I was taken to the
hospital, getting there at 5:30 a.m.'"
      "The resident says that the creatures were
tremendously strong and that he was in fear of his life
all the time, since he still couldn't figure out what they
were."
      "'I think they may come back.  I felt their
claws...look at my body!  They were always going for my
face.  I jumped into the canal because they couldn't go
into the water.  They followed me along the (canal's) edge
and then flew away.  They were dog-faced and had wings.
This is not a normal situation, I told myself.  They were
much stronger than me.  They got on top of me,' he noted."
      "Meanwhile, the district attorney of Parral, Ricardo
Encina, noted that the man's injuries had been evidenced
but couldn't tell what had caused them."
      "'He has, in fact, defensive injuries on his arms,
shoulders and back.  He's very affected by what happened.
We've initiated actions such as a search of the site.
We've spoken to the victim, and he has an appointment to
see the physician.  Then we'll know what we're up
against.'"
      "The district attorney dismissed the possibility that
the wounds were caused by a human."
      "'All I can think of is that it's not an attack by a
person, since these aren't the cutting wounds we're used
to seeing when a knife is involved.  Nor does he show
bruises, as though someone had given him a beating.  Nor
does he have the scratches characteristic of someone who
falls down by being drunk.  That's not what it is, but I
couldn't tell you the exact nature of his injuries,' he
stated."
      "Ricardo Encina confirmed that a few days ago there
were reports of hen slayings near Parral, but it wasn't
possible to determine what kind of animal was involved."
(See the Chilean newspaper Diario de la Discusion for July
5, 2004, "Alleged winged creatures cause panic among
peasants."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales para esto
articulo de diario.)
(Editor's Comment: From Acuna's description, these
entities resemble the winged, dog-like humanoids that
haunt the cemeteries of Cambridge, Massachusetts, which
H.P. Lovecraft wrote about in his 1926 short story
"Pickman's Model.")


DEPUTY AND WIFE SPOT A
TRIANGULAR UFO IN OHIO

      "On Wednesday, June 16, 2004, a veteran deputy
sheriff in Lake County, Ohio and his wife observed an
unusual triangular-shaped aircraft from two separate
vantage points at nearly the same time."
      "The wife spotted 'the unusual object while driving
east along State Route 91 near the intersection" of Ohio
Routes 91 and 306 "near Willoughby Hills, Ohio (population
8,595).
      "Deputy Sheriff Kevin Coleman reported both sightings
to the National UFO Reporting Center" in Seattle, Wash.
(Editor's Comment:  There's that name again.  And it's not
the last "Coleman" encountered this week, either.)
      "Deputy Sheriff Coleman reports that the high-flying
object he saw was traveling from west to east last
Wednesday," June 16, 2004, "was nothing that he was
familiar with.  The object was apparently higher than a
jet airliner that was also flying through that area."
      "'I was concerned to find out if that object was just
reflecting sunlight.  But after studying this for the
length of time that I could, it did not seem to change in
intensity or seem to be reflecting light in any way,' he
said, 'It had an angular shape to it, giving me the
impression that it was self-luminous.  In my opinion, it
was self-luminous.'"
      "'It was definitely traveling in an easterly
direction of the Perry Nuclear Plant when I first saw it,'
Coleman said, 'The thing seemed to slow down and get
bigger.  The object was just 'gone,' not accelerating or
flew off somewhere; it simply disappeared.  I had a good
visual on it.  There was no question about it moving
off.'"
      "The near simultaneous sighting by Coleman's wife of
a boomerang-shaped aircraft hovering only 100 feet (30
meters) from the ground was far more dramatic, according
to Coleman, and the duration of the sighting was over one
minute and documented due to traffic circumstances."
      "First viewed to her right and in a northerly
direction, Coleman's wife thought the object was some type
of military aircraft that was probably in a holding
pattern.  'My wife thought the plane was somehow related
to the events of September 11th (2001) or even in some
kind of investigation related to 9/11, Coleman said."
(Many thanks to Ohio ufologist Kenny Young for this
report.)


DAYLIGHT DISCS SPOTTED BY
CALIFORNIA MAN

      On Monday, July 5, 2004, at 7 p.m., Joe M. "was in
Castro Valley, California, on my patio, watching a
commercial airliner about six miles (9,600 meters) up in
the air, using a pair of Tasco binoculars.  The skies were
clear and blue with no clouds."
      "I zeroed in on the tail fin of a jetliner.  I was
trying to see the commercial airline's logo that was on
the tail fin, when I suddenly noticed above the tail fin,
about a mile above the plane (at 11,200 meters), two white
circular discs motionless in the air."
      "I stopped following the plane and looked at the two
discs with my binoculars.  The discs were at an 8 o'clock
and a 1 o'clock position on an imaginary clock.  The white
disc that was at an 8 o'clock position had a long white
rod spinning around the disc.  The other disc did not have
any rod (moving) around it."
      "I focused in as close as I could on these two white
discs but, at seven miles high, it was hard to see if they
had any port windows (portholes--J.T.) on them.  There was
definitely no strobe (navigational) lights on this craft
like jet airliners have."
      "At seven miles up, I could hear no sound at all."
      "The discs were in the sky motionless for about five
minutes.  Then the spinning rod disappeared from the
craft.  It did not go in the craft.  It just disappeared."
      "Then, about five seconds after the rod disappeared,
both craft just shot off at an astonishing speed towards
the west and were gone from view in just a few seconds."
      "Thinking back now, I think that the rod on the disc
was recharging the one craft.  Whether it was being
recharged by the sun's rays or whatever was below the
craft at seven miles down, I have no idea.  It was truly
an amazing sight to witness."
      "I would estimate that, by looking at the commercial
plane that was below these craft, the size of the two
discs was an astounding quarter of a mile in diameter
(about 1,400 feet or 420 meters--J.T.)  Whatever these two
craft were, I honestly believe the pilots flying them were
not of this Earth.  I have never seen any aircraft shaped
like that or moving at such an astounding speed."  (Email
Form Report)


LUMINOUS UFO SEEN BY 200
IN MEXICO'S YUCATAN

      On Sunday, July 4, 2004, two hundred members of Grupo
CAFE and Grupo Sirio-Mayab, two ufological groups in
Mexico's Yucatan state, attended a skywatch in the city of
Tikul.
      Clear skies that Sunday night "allowed a light to be
seen around 7 p.m. coming from the direction of a nearby
radio mast.  It first moved in a straight line and then
descended somewhat before ascending again, all of this in
a zigzag motion, which dismissed any possibility that it
was a satellite."
      "Seconds later, like maybe 20 (seconds), the object
disappeared again, but this time upwards as if leaving the
atmosphere.  A video of the event was taken using a SONY
Hi-8 camera.  The person who shot the event was Prof.
Silvestre Leal Campos, director of the Sirio-Mayab group."
      Also witnessing the UFO's overflight were Jorge
Castro Aledos and Guillermo Contreras Cruz, Grupo CAFE's
correspondent in Tikul.  (Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales
y David Triay Lucatero del Grupo CAFE para estas
noticias.)


LUMINOUS UFO APPEARS
NEAR MONTREAL, CANADA

      On Monday, July 5, 2004, the male eyewitness
reported, "I had just arrived home" at his apartment in
Rosemont, a suburb of Montreal, in Quebec province, Canada
"between 8:30 and 8:50 p.m. and took my guitar and then it
all happened.  The weather was cloudy and overcast.  My
balcony is on the third story and directly facing west.
Looking to the horizon as I was strumming my guitar, I
noticed an object way too low and bright to be an
airplane.  The brilliant red light was much too low to be
classified as an airplane or a helicopter."
      "The entire sighting lasted between 40 to 60 seconds,
and (the object) then took an awkward plunge and rushed
into itself.  I could not determine the shape of the
object because it was very bright, and the brightness
increased and became intense."
      "My wife also noticed her neighbourhood friend
talking about the strange object and was concluding that
it looked like something alien."  (Many thanks to Canadian
ufologist Brian Vike for this report.)


BRIGHT UFOs APPEAR OVER
PARTS OF BUENOS AIRES

      On Monday, July 5, 2004, at 7 p.m., "several self-
luminous UFOs, of a potent magnitude with blue and white
tints, flew from the east, the Rio de la Plata, to the
northeast, over the Avenida Nueve de Julio, and to the
barrio Santa Fe," in Buenos Aires, the capital of
Argentina.
      According to Argentinian ufologist Ricardo E.
D'Angelo, "numerous objects" were seen in the northern
part of the city, "from the dome of El Congreso (the
Capitol building--J.T.) all the way north to the Rio
Parana.  I received reports from other ufologists in the
northern part of the city, notably Carlos Turus and Daniel
Valverdi, and they reported the bright objects over both
the Rio de la Plata waterfront and the residential
neighborhoods of Santa Fe.  They described the event as 'a
truly strange phenomenon.'"  (Muchas gracias a Ricardo E.
D'Angelo para estas noticias.)


ELECTRONIC PHENOMENON
IN WALDORF, MARYLAND

      "It sounds like something out of The X-Files."
      "A mysterious force is rendering keyless car remote
controls impotent in Waldorf," Maryland (population
22,312).
      "Some frustrated drivers are looking skyward for the
answer.  But the experts say the fault isn't with UFOs or
secret NASA satellites.  It's radio interference."
      "Keyless entry technology uses radio frequencies that
aren't regulated by the Federal Communications Commission
(FCC)."
      "Bruce Romano, who works in the Office of Engineering
and Technology at the FCC says if there's interference,
that's too bad.  The primary user of that slice of the
radio spectrum is the government."
      "Officials say they'll decide if whatever car
interference is from military or government
transmissions."
      Waldorf, Md. is on Route 5 about 25 miles (40
kilometers) south of Washington, D.C.  (See the Baltimore
Sun for July 6, 2004, "Mysterious force knocks out keyless
entry systems."  Many thanks to Jim Hickman, executive
director of Skywatch International, for this report.
Don't forget to visit Jim's Web site at
www.thehickmanreport.com)
(Editor's Comment:  I sure hope this isn't some goofy
unexpected side-effect of the HAARP array.)


ANOTHER CROP CIRCLE
REPORTED IN POLAND

      A new crop circle "was found near the village of
Wylatowo" in Poland "the morning of Monday," July 5, 2004.
"It is composed of four elements. There are two circles"
measuring "6.0 meters (9.8 feet) and 9.5 meters (31.5
feet) in their diameter.  Next, the third element was
found--it is composed of 12 rings.  Every ring is 12
meters (40 feet) in diameter and one meter (3.3 feet)
wide.  The fourth element of the agroformation measured
18.5 meters (61 feet) in diameter, and it has the ring
with the circle inside."
      Video of the Wylatowo crop circle was aired in the
news broadcast of the show Panorama on Polish National
Television Channel 2 on Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 6:45
p.m.  (Many thanks to Polish ufologists Robert K.
Lesniakiewicz and Adam Piekut for this news story.)


TITAN STILL AN ENIGMA
AFTER CASSINI'S FLYBY

      "As the Cassini-Huygens spacecraft zooms away from
Saturn on its first, sweeping orbital loop, it has left a
wake of questions that has scientists buzzing about the
craft's first pass by the moon Titan."
      "Scientists expected to see oceans or lakes
reflecting like mirrors from Titan's surface.  Instead,
Cassini sent back murky pictures obscured by moon clouds."
      "'All of this is very mystifying,' Cassini's imaging
team leader Carolyn Porco said Monday," July 5, 2004.  'We
are trying to piece together a picture with really scant
evidence.'"
      "The (robot) ship snapped pictures and took
instrument readings as it passed within 211,000 miles
(353,000 kilometers) of Titan, about as close as Earth is
to its own moon.  The craft is soaring away from Saturn on
the first orbit."
      "Titan is the focus of the $3.27 billion mission,
which will spend at least four years exploring Saturn's
rings, moons, atmosphere and magnetic field.  The
multinational team of NASA, the European Space Agency and
the Italian Space Agency launched the mission in 1997 with
a focus on planet-like Titan because it is believed to be
similar or primordial Earth."
      "Cassini will be back near Saturn in about 50 days,
and in October will pass within 750 miles (1,200
kilometers) of Titan.  Once in a tight orbit, Cassini's
regular passes within 600 miles (1,000 kilometers) will
produce a steady stream of data."
      "Until then, scientists can only debate what they've
seen so far."
      "The team wonders which of its assumptions were
wrong.  Are there no lakes or oceans, or is the haze in
the atmosphere just much thicker than expected?"
      "'It's not obvious to us what we are seeing,' Porco
says, 'The paradigms we have are inadequate.'"
      "Comparing Titan today to the Earth 4 billion years
ago could be like opening a scientific time capsule,
providing insight into the conditions in which life arose
here."
      "Or it could raise new questions."
      "'It's going to take all of the instruments and all
of us working together to work out the story of Titan's
surface,' Porco says."
      "Though clouds obscured the view, they also provided
scientists with clues.  A methane cloud near Titan's South
Pole is made up of unusually large particles, suggesting
something is brewing below."
      "And scientists were able to look for the first time
at the surface, using an infrared mapping spectrometer
that cut through the haze, to map minerals and chemicals."
      "'We have indeed seen Titan's surface with
unprecedented clarity,' said Dennis Matson, one of the
project scientists.  When the ship gets closer to Titan in
coming months, the scientists will use radar to map the
surface in greater detail."
      In addition, Cassini's plunge past Saturn last week
revealed a startlingly beautiful look at the planet's
rings of ice and dust, scientists said Wednesday," July 7,
2004.
      "Cassini's Ultraviolet Imaging Spectrograph Team, led
by Larry Esposito of the University of Colorado-Boulder,
reports that the images show more ice lingers in the
outer-edge subrings of the A, B and C main rings.  The
inner parts of the rings appear dirtier and could contain
smaller ice particles, says Josh Cowell, a member of the
team."
      "'The pictures look almost psychedelic,' he says."
      "Through more refined looks at the data, the team
hopes to determine whether the dirtier ringlets formed in
place around Saturn or as a result of micrometeorites
contaminating the rings."  (See USA Today for July 6,
2004, "Pictures from Titan have scientists puzzled," page
5D; and for July 8, 2004, "Images of Saturn's rings hint
at their origin," page 4D.)


READER FEEDBACK:

THERE WAS NO PORTUGUESE
MISSILE LAUNCH ON JUNE 1

      Portuguese ufologist Joaquim Fernandes writes, "I
just learned from a former Portuguese Air Force Chief of
Staff that the alleged missile launch against the UFO that
crossed Portugal and the south of Spain (on June 1, 2004--
J.T.) never occurred."
      "In fact, if the Air Force bases were put on alert,
the incident would have stopped there--at that level.  So
there was no fired launch against the intruder.  Maybe an
inexact reading of the newspapers determined that rumour."
      "It is important that these matters should be
examined by the scientific authorities and not within the
framework of popular beliefs that transform information
into an ongoing urban legend."


YES, THERE WAS--IT WAS A
SECRET LAUNCH

      Another Portuguese ufologist, Gregorio Sao Xavier,
took the opposite tack.  Asked to comment, he wrote, "What
I stated in the last email was true.  If it (the missile)
was truly launched, I do not know.  But I don't expect the
military to tell all of its secrets to Sr. Fernandes.  It
would alarm people on the eve of EURO 2004."
      "If they launched and didn't tell, they did good.
More I personally don't know."


      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us in seven days
for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth--and occasionally Saturn--brought to you by
"the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."  See you next
time.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                          Roswell Dig Finds Nothing

From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:18:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:49:57 -0400
Subject: Roswell Dig Finds Nothing


Source: Wireless Flash Weird News

http://www.ncbuy.com/news/2004-07-14/1010091.html

07-14-04


Roswell Dig Finds Nothing, Investigator Still Hopeful

HUBERTUS, Wisconsin (Wireless Flash) -- In an ending similar to
that of Geraldo Riviera's Al Capone vault special, a team of
investigators who dug up a field near Roswell, New Mexico, found
no evidence to prove the 1947 UFO crash.

The team of amateur archaeologists and UFO investigators, who
were backed by the SciFi Channel and the University of New
Mexico, document their search in the new book, "The Roswell Dig
Diaries" (Pocket Books).

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743486129/mothman-20

UFO investigator and co-author of the book, Donald R. Schmidt,
says that some of the items recovered are still being tested at
the University of New Mexico.

But the important thing was to prove that a UFO had made a gouge
in the area they were excavating, and, unfortunately, they
didn't turn up any material which suggested that was the case.

While Schmidt is planning to go back to the site, he knows that
the odds are against him finding anything more due to 30 mph
winds, sudden rainstorms, and animals stealing fragments.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                          Secrecy News -- 07/14/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:18:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:55:27 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/14/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 65
July 14, 2004


**      SENATOR LOTT CALLS FOR NEW DECLASSIFICATION PROCESS
**      ASHCROFT HAILS THE USA PATRIOT ACT
**      UK REPORT ON WMD INTELLIGENCE
**      MORE ON THE TAGUBA REPORT
**      NEW DOCUMENTS ON SIOP HISTORY
**      SOUTH KOREA TO CIA: IT'S ROH NOT NO


SENATOR LOTT CALLS FOR NEW DECLASSIFICATION PROCESS

Sen. Trent Lott (R-MS) criticized the Central Intelligence
Agency for demanding unnecessary redactions in the recent Senate
report on pre-war Iraq intelligence, and he said that a new
procedure for declassifying such documents is now needed.

"When the Intelligence Committee first prepared this report, the
CIA recommended that about half of it be redacted," Sen. Lott
noted on the Senate floor yesterday.

"I understand the need to protect the names of sources and
intelligence methods. But I can tell you that most of those
redactions were not of that nature; they were everyday,
unclassified words."

"It is my belief that in matters such as these, the CIA is too
close to the intelligence process to provide an objective view
of what really needs to be classified," he said.

"Consequently, I am working with Senator Wyden to propose
legislation that will establish a small independent group under
the President that will review documents such as this report to
ensure that classification decisions are independent and
objective."

See his July 13 floor statement here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2004_cr/s071304.html

In 1997, the Moynihan Commission on Government Secrecy proposed
the establishment of a National Declassification Center to
coordinate declassification policy and to promote timely and
cost-effective release of records. But like most of that
Commission's recommendations, it was never acted upon.

See Chapter 3 of the Moynihan Commission Report entitled "Common
Sense Declassification and Public Access" here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/library/moynihan/chap3.html


ASHCROFT HAILS THE USA PATRIOT ACT

"The Patriot Act is al Qaeda's worst nightmare when it comes to
disrupting and disabling their operations here in America," said
Attorney General John Ashcroft yesterday, announcing release of
a new Justice Department report that credits the USA Patriot for
dozens of successful law enforcement investigations and
operations.

See the Attorney General's remarks here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/07/ag071304.html

A copy of the new report, entitled "Report from the Field: The
USA PATRIOT Act at Work," is available here (2 MB PDF file):

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/patriot0704.pdf

A recent Congressional Research Service report on the Patriot
Act was mistakenly identified in the previous edition of Secrecy
News. The newly updated report is not "The USA Patriot Act: A
Sketch," but rather "The USA Patriot Act Sunset: A Sketch,"
updated June 10, 2004 and available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS21704.pdf


UK REPORT ON WMD INTELLIGENCE

A new British government report on intelligence regarding
weapons of mass destruction generally echoes the criticisms
presented by others but also stops short of assigning personal
culpability for intelligence and policy failures.

See a copy of the report entitled "Review of Intelligence on
Weapons of Mass Destruction" (the Butler Committee report), July
14, 2004 here (216 pages, 1 MB PDF file):

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/uk/butler071404.pdf


MORE ON THE TAGUBA REPORT

The voluminous annexes to the classified Army investigative
report by Maj. General Antonio M. Taguba regarding the abuse of
Iraqi prisoners in U.S. custody were obtained by U.S. News and
World Report, which has made several of them available on its
web site here:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040719/usnews/19prison.b.htm

U.S. News offered additional reporting on the matter this week
in an article entitled "Hell on Earth" by Edward T. Pound and
Kit R. Roane:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040719/usnews/19prison.htm


NEW DOCUMENTS ON SIOP HISTORY

Military planning for the conduct of a nuclear war, known as the
Single Integrated Operational Plan (SIOP), is perhaps the most
intensely guarded government secret of all.

Newly declassified historical documents on the development of
the SIOP in the early 1960s have been compiled with an
interpretive introduction by William Burr of the National
Security Archive.

See "The Creation of SIOP-62: More Evidence on the Origins of
Overkill," edited by William Burr, July 13, 2004, here:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB130/index.htm


SOUTH KOREA TO CIA: IT'S ROH NOT NO

A South Korean legislator complained this week that the Central
Intelligence Agency has repeatedly misspelled the name of South
Korean President Roh.

"Although the official spelling of the President is 'Roh Moo-
Hyun,' it is written as 'No Moo-Hyun' on the web site of the
U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, which was updated in May,"
said Sohn Bong-suk of the Millenium Democratic Party.

"It was misspelled in last year's world fact book, which the CIA
publishes every year, and still is not corrected."

The proper transliteration of foreign names is a serious
challenge for U.S. intelligence, particularly since there is
often no single, unique English spelling of non-Western names.

The problem was anticipated 35 years ago by Mel Brooks (the next
DCI?) in an episode of the TV show Get Smart that featured a
Chinese villain known as "The Claw" because of his prosthetic
arm with a hook at the end.

Since The Claw stereotypically pronounced the letter "l" like
the letter "r," secret agent Maxwell Smart thought his name was
The Craw.

The bad guy helplessly attempted to correct him: "Not The Craw -
- The CRAW!"

See "President Roh Becomes President No," published in Chosun
Ilbo, South Korea's largest daily newspaper, July 12:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/07/chosun071204.html



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                            Mystery Of The Maize

From: Louise Lowry <SHnSASSY1.nul>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:37:39 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:02:20 -0400
Subject: Mystery Of The Maize


Source: The News-Times

http://news.newstimes.com/story.php?id=3D63411&category=3DLocal

Mystery of the maize: New Milford woman's corn crop flattened overnight
Mid-garden damage defies explanation, son says

By Kamilla Gary
The News-Times

NEW MILFORD =97 Martha Bailey got up Tuesday morning, just like
she always does, to have her cigarette and coffee out on the
porch of her Sunny Valley Road home.

What she saw was reminiscent of the movies. Think Mel Gibson in
"Signs."

"Maybe aliens touched down," her 7-year-old granddaughter,
Shannon, said.

"They're heeeeere," her son, Eric, joked to his wife, Pat.

Bailey's small garden, marked with the homey sign "Grandma's
Garden," is fenced off with 7-foot-tall chicken wire and wood.
She has planted yellow and white corn among the squash and
tomato plants.

In the middle of the corn patch, a perfect square of corn stalks
lay perfectly flat, uniformly bent in one direction. The
healthy, green corn stalks were otherwise undamaged and the corn
surrounding the approximately 20-foot by-40-foot square was
standing perfectly. Not one tomato or squash was harmed.

Whatever, or whoever, flattened the crop is a mystery.

"It's weird," Bailey said, looking out at the garden.

Bailey is convinced that something must have touched down in the
garden. She doesn't think it was vandalism; she explained few
children live on the quiet street and she has nice neighbors.
Even though rain soaked the area Monday evening into Tuesday, no
footprints were found in the garden.

"Everything was secure, the gates were locked, it had to be
something that touched down and flattened it," Bailey said. "It
made me sick this morning."

Some of the cornstalks that had remained standing were beginning
to droop Tuesday, but they weren't falling at all the way the
others had.

In addition to the 7-foot fence, firewood is stacked against the
back and left sides of the fence.

Bailey, 69, said she has been gardening since she was 9 and has
never seen anything like it. Her daughter-in-law contacted Dr.
Mel Goldstein, a meteorologist with WTNH Channel 8, who told her
there was no wind Monday night.

Even if there had been wind, Bailey pointed out that her 3.4-
acre property is surrounded by trees, which she believes would
have taken the brunt of any wind gusts.

Eric Bailey said that he had seen the 2002 Mel Gibson movie
"Signs," by M. Night Shyamalan. The movie focuses on a man who
lives on a Pennsylvania farm with his brother and two children.
One day the children discover a crop circle in the middle of
their corn field, which the family soon learns is a sign that
aliens are coming to take over the earth.

"That was the first movie that ever gave me goosebumps," Eric
Bailey said. When he first saw the square design in his mother's
garden, he said his mind immediately went to otherworldly
beings. The square defies other logical explanation, he said.

He knows a little of the history of crop circles, which gained
notoriety when stories began popping up in the 1980s in British
media. It was revealed that a group of people using wooden
boards and wire were creating intricate circles during the night
in some instances.

"Who in their right mind would do that and not take credit for
it?" Eric Bailey said.

The family moved to the property in 1999. The home was
originally part of the neighboring Sunny Valley Preserve. They
remodeled the home, clearing the trees that surrounded the small
and dilapidated house and turning it into the picturesque home
it is today.

The other day, Pat and Eric Bailey went to the Elephant's Trunk
and returned with a green and white sig

n that reads "Valley Farm, Est. 1864."

"I think that sign was a jinx," Martha Bailey said to her son,
who dismissed the thought. "I wonder what happened on the Valley
Farm in 1864."

The family planned to get out into the garden to try to pick up
the stalks, perhaps propping them up with more soil.

But for now, Eric and Pat Bailey's bedroom window looks out on
the mysterious square.

"I don't know the answer," Eric Bailey said.

Contact Kamilla Gary








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                  Video Of Gobernador Ugarte Argentina UFO

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:10:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:05:36 -0400
Subject: Video Of Gobernador Ugarte Argentina UFO


Some video footage of the Gobernador Ugarte UFO can be seen at
the following link

http://americanoticias.uolsinectis.com.ar/galeria_videos/

Left hand column, third item down.


Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                        NARCAP: Aviation Safety In US

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:43:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:10:18 -0400
Subject: NARCAP: Aviation Safety In US


NARCAP: Aviation Safety in US: Unidentified Aerial Phenomena and
Under-Reporting Bias

"Upon return to my domicile, JFK, I reported our sighting to the
proper authorities. I was shortly visited by two federal
investigators who evidently thought I was hallucinating for one
of them stated he had seen spaceships while fishing in Great
South Bay and was quite obviously trying to prove that I was a
loony." -- Captain, Pan Am (ret.)

"It must have been Huge! We were all due back at JFK about the
same time two days later so I waited in the crew ready room to
talk to them. None of them wanted to talk! They were afraid
management would take them off of flying status and have them
tested for booze and drugs. The story never came out!"
--Flight Engineer, TWA (ret.)


NARCAP Technical Report No. 8 - 10 July 2004

http://www.narcap.org/reports/TR8Bias1.htm

Aviation Safety in America: Unidentified Aerial Phenomena and
Under-Reporting Bias

The issue of valid U.S. pilot reports of Unidentified Aerial
Phenomena, UAP and the seeming lack of attention given to these
reports by the aviation system is a complicated one. There is a
longstanding bias in place that severely inhibits the reporting
and investigation of UAP incidents. This bias stifles open
discussion of UAP amongst aircrews, management, safety
administrators, and the researchers who try to acquire
information on this important topic. [excerpt taken from report]

[much, much more at URL]







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                          Secrecy News -- 07/16/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:36:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:27:31 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/16/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 66
July 16, 2004


**      SENATORS INTRODUCE BILL TO REVAMP CLASSIFICATION POLICY
**      MORE CONGRESSIONAL RESEARCH SERVICE PRODUCTS
**      CORRECTIONS RE: "THE CLAW" AND PRESIDENT NO


SENATORS INTRODUCE BILL TO REVAMP CLASSIFICATION POLICY

Senators Ron Wyden (D-OR), Trent Lott (R-MS), Bob Graham (D-FL)
and Olympia Snowe (R-Maine) yesterday introduced bipartisan
legislation to establish an Independent National Security
Classification Board that would review current classification
policies, make recommendations for reform, and serve as a
neutral forum for reexamining disputed classification decisions.

"We need clear standards and procedures to ensure a reasonable
balance between the need for citizens to have access to
information and the need to protect national security," said
Sen. Wyden in a news release.

"This unbiased, independent Board will apply some common sense
to the national security classification system," he said.

The legislation (S. 2672) would authorize $2 million for the
first year of the Board's operations.  The three-member Board
would be named by the President, the Senate and the House.  Each
would require Senate confirmation.

But in a decisive limitation, the Board would not have
independent statutory authority to compel declassification by a
recalcitrant agency.

See Senator Wyden's July 15 thoughtful statement introducing the
bill here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/s2672.html

One measure of the difficulty of achieving classification reform
through this kind of process is that a very similar approach has
already been tried without success.

In the Fiscal Year 2001 Intelligence Authorization Act, Congress
previously enacted and the President signed into law a provision
that established something called the Public Interest
Declassification Board (PIDB).

Its functions and authorities, which closely resemble those of
the Board now proposed in the Senate, are set forth here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2000_rpt/hr5630e.html#pida

But incredibly, the members of the Public Interest
Declassification Board were never named by the President and
Congress, so it has never convened.

Perhaps the Wyden-Lott proposal will fare better.  Before it was
even introduced, it had already garnered editorial support from
The Washington Post (July 13) and The New Republic (July 26).


MORE CONGRESSIONAL RESEARCH SERVICE PRODUCTS

Recently acquired reports of the Congressional Research Service
include the following:

"The Middle East Peace Talks," updated July 6, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/IB91137.pdf

"Major Tax Issues in the 108th Congress," updated July 12, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/IB10110.pdf

"Nuclear Nonproliferation Issues," updated June 21, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/crs/IB10091.pdf

"Terrorist 'Dirty Bombs': A Brief Primer," updated April 1,
2004:

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/crs/RS21528.pdf


CORRECTIONS RE: "THE CLAW" AND PRESIDENT NO

Secrecy News (07/14/04) should have noted that the TV program
Get Smart was co-created by Buck Henry.  The two episodes
featuring The Claw, entitled The Diplomat's Daughter and The
Amazing Harry Hoo, are credited to writers Gerald Gardner and
Dee Caruso, not Mel Brooks. Gardner and Caruso no longer speak
to one another, Secrecy News is informed, and Caruso will not
discuss the show.  Thanks to several alert readers, M and
subject matter expert Carl Birkmeyer.

The Central Intelligence Agency's refusal to alter the spelling
of the South Korean President's name from "No Mu-hyon" to "Roh
Moo-hyun," as requested by South Korea (SN, 07/14/04), is not
due to ignorance or malice.

Rather, the CIA is adhering to what is called the McCune-
Reischauser system of Romanization of the Korean language.
 First published in 1939, the McCune-Reischauser system is
acknowledged to be an imperfect compromise, but it remains the
reigning standard among Western students of Korea.

Periodic efforts by the Korean government to dislodge McCune-
Reischauser in favor of what it says is a more accurate system
of pronunciation and transliteration have not met with much
success so far.

The Korean Overseas Information Service told the Korea Herald
this week it would make another attempt to persuade the CIA to
change its spelling of the President's name.


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                         My July 15 UFO Anniversary

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:47:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:38:07 -0400
Subject: My July 15 UFO Anniversary


Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:06:48 -0700
From: "T. Peter Park" <tpeterpark.nul>
  To: forteana.nul
Subj: FWD [forteana] Re: My July 15 UFO anniversary


Friends, Forteans, Listmates!

Today, July 15th, is the 37th anniversary of one of my own few
first-hand personal paranormal experiences: the night a friend
of mine and I both saw a rather unusual three-pronged bright
purplish UFO - or an odd celestial appearance of some sort -
 over Charlottesville,  Virginia.

37 years ago, on Saturday, July 15, 1967, I was a graduate
student in History at the University of Virginia in
Charlottesville, working on my doctoral dissertation. One of my
close friends at U.Va. was a graduate English major named Alex
Theroux, now a highly regarded novelist, author of the
critically acclaimed novels, Darconville's Cat and  An Adultery.
That night, Alex and I went to a local student watering hole,
the "Gaslight," along with a young Swedish parapsychologist,
Nils Jacobson, whom we'd just met earlier that day. Nils
Jacobson, then a medical student specializing in psychiatry, was
doing his psychiatry internship at the U.Va. Hospital that
summer, under that hospital's noted reincarnation researcher,
Ian Stevenson of the hospital's Neurology and Psychiatry
Department.

Alex Theroux, Nils Jacobson, and I had a few beers and some
dinner that night at the Gaslight. Jacobson had to leave, but we
soon ran into some of Alex's friends who invited us over to
their own apartment.  Shortly before midnight, Alex and I left
the Gaslight to drive over to his friend's apartment. As we were
walking across the Gaslight parking lot to Alex's car, I
happened to glance at the sky over downtown Charlottesville, to
the Southeast.

To my astonishment, I saw a huge bright three-pronged purplish-
pink glow in the night sky, covering about 20 or 30 degrees of
arc.  It was shaped like a Mercedes-Benz logo without the
circular rim, or like a peace symbol with the middle leg
missing. A jet fighter was flying in its direction. I pointed it
out to Alex, who exclaiomed, "My God, a UFO!" We didn't see any
more, however, as we then got into Alex's car to drive to his
friends' place. Later, however, we both drew identical drawings
of it. For the next week or so, I scanned the Charlottesville,
Richmond, and Norfolk papers every day for mentions of the UFO
and the plane "buzzing" it, but found nothing - making me wonder
if there might have been an Air Force cover-up of the incident!

For whatever the coincidence is worth, I saw my 1967
Charlottesville UFO at a time when I was atarting to fall madly,
hopelessly in love with a very bright and likable but badly
disturbed schizophrenic girl, Barbara K____.  Barbara was an
ardent "peacenik," and also very self-conscioously Jewish. These
passionate identifications, I've often thought, would be quite
aptly symbolized together by a paranormal appearance recalling
both a peace symbol and the logo of her people's arch-enemy
Adolf Hitler's car, the Mercedes-Benz! And, on top of that, Alex
and I had gone to the Gaslight that night with the Swedish
parapsychologist Nils Jacobson, whom we had both met earlier
that day!

Somehow, I've always thought, my feelings for Barbara K_______,
Barbara's own preoccupations, and the presence with us that day
of a parapsychologist all contributed that night to generating a
psychic "Gestalt" manifesting the appearance of that three-
 pronged celestial glow recalling both a peace sign and a
Mercedes-Benz logo! Maybe there was no nuts-and-bolts starship
from Zeta Reticuli over Charlottesville on the night of July 15,
1967 - but there was a psychodynamic relationship involving
myself, Barbara K_____, Alex Theroux, and Nils Jacobson!


Peace,

T. Peter

-----

Terry W. Colvin







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

              Fighting Fear And Conspiracy Theories On Moonlit

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:42:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:42:35 -0400
Subject: Fighting Fear And Conspiracy Theories On Moonlit




Source: St. Petersburg Times - Florida

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/18/Columns/Fighting_fear_and_con.shtml

07-18-04

Fighting Fear And Conspiracy Theories On Moonlit Night

By Jan Glidewell
Times Columnist


I sat, a few nights ago, trying very hard not to think a whole
lot about where I was.

It was beautiful in the San Luis Valley in Colorado, with the
Sangre De Cristo mountains rising on one side and the kinder,
gentler San Juan range on the other.

I watched a full moon, occasionally blocked by scudding black
clouds, rise over mountains whose blood-red color resulted in
their being named for the blood of Christ, and convinced myself
that I was only moderately afraid.

The San Luis Valley is a site well-known to UFO buffs, fans of
the supernatural and conspiracy theorists. It is one of the
primary UFO sighting locations in the United States, and, when
cattle mutilations were the "in" thing with alien invasion
buffs, the valley was also the site of more of those than any
other area.

And it's not hard to find a few locals or longtime transplants
who will tell you about energy vortexes, strange aircraft flying
in and out of mountain caves and even, as one guy in a bar in
nearby Salida explained to me one night, "gridding."

Gridding is very popular with conspiracy buffs who think
gridlike patterns that look to the rest of us like jet contrails
are actually signs of mind-control chemicals being dropped on us
by the government.

Of course, a government that has been able to sell us some of
the things we seem to have swallowed en masse lately doesn't
seem to need much in the way of mind control chemicals.

But, back to the things of which I was more immediately afraid.

The fact that I was at a fairly isolated campsite made me
wonder, for the first time in years, what would happen if I had
a heart attack. Then I convinced myself to calm down and stop
borrowing trouble.

It's easy when you haven't done much camping or spent a lot of
time in the outdoors in decades to become anxious. What if the
hatchet glances off a piece of wood and slices an artery? What
if the bears you have heard about roaming the nearby mountain
ranges sometimes drop down into the valley looking for Florida
license plates so they can stop in for a little Southern food?
There must be some reason the campground advertises that it has
game meat freezers on the premises.

What if the frequent winds blow the tent away? What if the
waterproofing stuff on the tent seams doesn't work and it
storms?

I did what I usually do in such circumstances, and shouted,
(internally, I didn't want to cry wolf in case I really did need
help from campsites within shouting distance) "Hey! Grab the
reins. Relax." I reminded myself that I had stopped off for a
few days in New Orleans en route from Dade City to Colorado, and
walked the French Quarter's streets unmolested, except when a
woman popped up from behind Marie Laveau's tomb in broad
daylight and asked for a handout. She looked so much like the
fabled voodoo priestess buried in the cemetery I was touring
that I handed her a whole pocketful of change.

I reminded myself that I had driven 2,000 miles on interstate
highways full of massive pieces of truck tire recaps, people who
don't understand that merging traffic yields to oncoming
traffic, and highways designed by people with no respect for the
aging male bladder. I had even faced down gas gougers who will
look you in the eye and try to make you believe that you just
pumped 23 gallons of gas into a 22-gallon tank when your
(working) gas gauge read half-full when you started.

I wondered for a moment if I was just whistling past the
graveyard in convincing myself how fearless I was.

Then I congratulated myself that that couldn't be, because there
was no graveyard . . . until I remembered the tiny, stark Villa
Grove graveyard that I had driven past on the way to my camping
spot.

But a bottle of good merlot, a blazing fire and damaged hearing
that made me able to believe that every sound I heard was an owl
served my jittery nerves well.

It wasn't, I decided, so scary after all and, properly padded
with a bag full of dirty laundry, a hatchet actually does make a
pretty good pillow.

The only trick for the next several weeks, for me, will be to
ignore strange lights in the sky, and to try to get to sleep
every night without the word "probe" going through my mind.

[Last modified July 17, 2004, 23:36:24]







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

             Revelations Of Alien Capture At Brazillian Congress

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Brazilian UFO Magazine <ufo.nul>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:46:52
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:52:34 -0400
Subject: Revelations Of Alien Capture At Brazillian Congress


UFO Congress to be held in Varginha has new revelations about
the capture of aliens in Brazil

19 to 22 August 2004, Varginha =96 Minas Gerais =96 Brazil

This event is part of the campaign UFOs: Freedom Of Information
Now, promoted by the Brazilian UFO Magazine

The most anticipated UFO congress of all time is finally
scheduled for 19 to 22 August 2004, in Varginha, Minas Gerais
state, Brazil.

8 years ago, two alien creatures were captured by the Brazilian
Army and Fire Department personel of Varginha.

One of the most important cases in the history of Ufology will
be detailled by the most recognized Brazilian UFO researchers,
with the special appearence of first- hand witnesses.

Astounding new info about the capture of the creatures and the
removal of the craft wreckage will be presented by military and
civilian witnesses who took part in the procedures.


Invited speakers:

A. J. Gevaerd (MS)
Definitive contact with ETs

Antonio Faleiro (MG)
UFOs in the Brazilian folklore

Carlos Alberto Machado (PR)
Chupacabras and the Varginha Case

Cesar Vanucci (MG)
UFOs as seen by a journalist

Claudeir Covo (SP)
The "official night" of the UFOs in Brasil

Eustaquio Patounas (SC)
UFOs and spirituality

Fernando Ramalho (DF)
Aliens registered in the Bible

Jose Estevao M. Lima (MG)
Ufoarcheology

Laura Elias (SP)
The 2004 Mexico UFO flap

Marcos Malvezzi (SP)
UFOs in the Brazilian history

Nelson Granado (SP)
Flying saucers, UFOs and physics

Paulo Baraky Werner (MG)
Contacts =EDn the Cip=F3 Hills

Rafael Cury (PR)
Aliens that kill and heal

Reginaldo de Athayde (CE)
UFOs in the Northeast of Brazil

Reinaldo Stabolito (SP)
Who are our alien visitors?

Ricardo Varela (SP)
Analysis of UFO photos and videos

Rogerio Chola (SP)
UFOs and the scientific revolution

Vanderlei D=B4Agostino (SP)
Sociological aspects of Ufology

Wallacy Albino (SP)
The mystery of the crop circles

Wendell Stein (SP)
Abductions in Sao Paulo state

Marco Petit (RJ)
New revelations about the Varginha Case

Special guest:
Ubirajara F. Rodrigues

Scientific coordinator:
A. J. Gevaerd


Plan your reservation now:

Guarantee your participation in this event writting to: eventos.nul=

To get more info about it, write to: ufo.nul

C. 2004 Brazilian UFO Magazine

http://www.ufo.com.br








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                         Jeeves Dumbed Down Bigtime

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:54:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:58:47 -0400
Subject: Jeeves Dumbed Down Bigtime


Hello,

In America at least, one thinks of an English butler as a
touchstone of taste, propriety, correctness and everything else
we love to hate, or vice-versa.

From time to time, I check the search engines to see if my
little website is doing any good. After Google and Yahoo, I
check "Ask Jeeves".

Try it yourself. Query Jeeves with the one word "UFO":

I'll save you some keystrokes, just click this:

http://web.ask.com/web?q=UFO

Now. What's wrong with that page, aside from my site not
immediately showing up that is?

Look at the right-hand box headed "Related Searches".

Count down past 'rods' and similar garbage to the ninth item:

"UFO Sitings".

'SITINGS'... not 'Sightings'!?

Maybe this seems a small matter to a few of you using 'Winders-
98', but it just galls the crap out of me.

Site = location, place... as in 'We decided to build a dam on
this SITE because of this convenient river.'

'Sight' implies vision, seeing, (sigh!)

As it turns out, Ask Jeeves gives my web-'site' fairly decent
ratings. I can't complain, maybe that explains the droolers with
AOL addresses that write in now and again.

We are lucky to have some good gatekeepers on this list, Jan,
John and others. Please contrast this with "Jeeves" the butler
who cannot spell, nor parse, nor discriminate.

If you have a single doubt about this, just click on Jeeves
recommendations for "UFO SITINGS".

You will find something like the following:

http://web.ask.com/web?qsrc=6&q=UFO+Sitings

I'm glad my site (not sight) is not on _that_ page.

So, what of the 'Jeeves' concept? Is this some pretention to
class and gentility? I prefer beer. I'm somehow reminded of
prisoners who find profound and life changing religious
convictions, just before the parole board convenes.


End of rant.....


Thanks for your patience,

Larry Hatch








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                     UK UFO Conferemce October 9/10 2004

From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:28:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:01:38 -0400
Subject: UK UFO Conferemce October 9/10 2004


International UFO Conference

Probe International Presents
'truth Is Freedom'

Saturday & Sunday 9th & 10th October 2004
Lytham St Anne's, Lancashire

Speakers:

Malcolm Robinson
Brian Allan
Graeme Mudie
Nigel Mortimer
Philip Mantle
Lynn Picknett
John Rhodes

A wide variety of UFO and related topics will be under discussion

Tickets: =A313.00 per day.

Contact: Probe International

Tele: 01253 691301
E-mail: jean.sam.nul
Write: 15 Knaresboro Avenue, Morton, Blackpool, Lancs, FY3 9QW.


Now One Of The Largest UFO Events In The North Of England








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

               Report on Restoration of Parque Forestal Image

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:17:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:06:06 -0400
Subject: Report on Restoration of Parque Forestal Image


INEXPLICATA

The Journal of Hispanic Ufology

July 18, 2004


Source: CIFAE - CHILE

Date: 06.17.04

Restoration of the Parque Forestal Image

In regard to the analysis of the Parque Forestal photograph,
CIFAE delivers this interesting report by our scientific
director to the international UFO research community.

In this work we shall present a brief introduction to the
restoration of images by means of deconvolution, which is the
only correct technique for eliminating certain defects from
images. We also attempt to restore the Parque Forestal image,
although in this case it isn't possible to obtain very good
results.  We are not trying to debate what the subject of the
photo is or is not, nor if it is of interest to ufology. The
main subject under discussion here (restoration) should be of
interest to any researcher who works with images.

An image distorted by being out of focus, astigmatism,  "motion
blur", atmospheric disturbances, etc. is mathematically
represented as the convolution between the non-defective image
and a PSF (point spread function). PSF is a function that can be
interpreted as the distorted image of a white spot on a black
background, and each image can have a different PSF depending on
the camera and the conditions under which the image was
acquired.

In order to restore the image and to eliminate these defects,
one must perform the reverse operation, in other words,
deconvolute the distorted image against the corresponding PSF.
Deconvolution isn't hard to achieve, but the deconvolution
algorithms tend to be sensible to the image's "noise"
(fluctuations) and iterative methods can easily diverge. The
worst problem arises when the PSF isn't known a priori, and in
this case it is necessary to develop some method that can
extract the PSF from the defective image, what is known as blind
deconvolution. This problem can be hard to deal with, and may be
considered as one of the great challenges of the field of image
analysis.

For example, Figure 1 shows a restoration made by Michael Cannon
in the 1970s, and who determined PSF based on a cepstral
analysis and later deconvoluted the image using Wiener's Filter


Figure 1: An example of blind deconvolution.

It is also interesting to note the recent work of Alfred
Carasso, who has achieved very impressive results, although the
applicability of his methods is limited.

It is hard to find commercial software capable of performing
blind deconvolutions. Some programs like   AutoDeblur have been
specifically developed for microscopy. The  Unshake program is a
general purpose one, but is based on a very simple method that
doesn't always work well. Other software packages like  Iris are
only useful in astrophotography. The majority of the available
programs require a priori knowledge of PSF, such as Unblur ,
which is general purpose. FocusFixer is only useful in dealing
with out-of-focus image and  Focus Magic corrects simple out of
focus and motion blur.

For the time being we do not have access to a better commercial
software package, therefore the Parque Forestal image was
restored searching for PSF by simpler means. Knowing the basics
of deconvolution, it is possible to know something about PSF by
simple inspection of the photo. One can see that it appears in
motion blur at angle of some 150 degrees. Using the Fix Motion
Blur filter in Focus Magic at this angle, the distance could be
established through trial and error, and turned out to be 11
pixels. In other words, the PSF that accoutns for the motion
blur would be a straight line with a length of 11 pixels at an
angle of 150 degrees. Upon eliminating the motion blur, it can
be seen that the image is folded in the same direction (150
degrees) and at a distance of 17 pixels. In other words, the PSF
that acknowledges this unfolding is two points at a distance of
17 pixels and at an angle of 150 degrees. The PSF was built
using this inforamtion and the image was deconvoluted using
Unblur. Focus Magic could not correct the unfolding. The result
is shown in Figure 2, where it is noted that the image is partly
restored, but with an increase in the amount of "noise".
Contrast was not augmented artificially. The original photo has
a lower contrast because the colors and shapes are mixed when an
image is hazy, and upon restoring it, the colors and details of
the real scene are also recovered.

According to expert James Caron, this image has several
difficutlites that do not allow for its full restoration:

Due to poor lighting, a weak signal was obtained with excessive
motion blur due to the long exposure time (0.1 seg).

The object of interest is moving and has a different, more sever
motion blur than the static objects in the scene.

The image is compressed, which truncates the information
necessary for its restoration.

In other words, the photo is compressed in the JPG format, which
eliminates part of the information contained in the original
image in order to reduce the storage size. The lack of lighting
brings as a consequence an excessive amount of noise, especially
in the restored image. This implies that there isn't a single
PSF for the whole photo, which makes restoration difficult. On
the other hand, any evidence of motion may be useful in
intepreting the image. In our restoration, at least, some
details and colors can be distinguished, and from the photo
analysis point of view, it is the best that could be done in
this case.

Figure 2: Restoration of the Parque Forestal photo.

Regarding the possibility of fraud in this photo, it would be
easy to dot. The figure could have been pasted on the photo and
the resulting borders could ahve been erased through motion
blur. On the other hand, the photo's EXIF could have been edited
in order to simulate an original photo. But the fact that it is
easy to forge does not constitute evidence of a hoax, although
it could provide good grounds for ignoring this case or not
taking it seriously. We have hitherto not received any valid
arguments supporting the hoax hypothesis. Some have said that
some lines or squares of well-defined borders can be noted, but
this is only a defect of the JPG format.

In closing, something should be said about other image
processing techniques. Some effects that highlight the image's
details are very common, such as contrast and saturation,
sharpening, unsharp mask, border detection, emboss, solarizing,
etc. But it is obvious that none of these filters would be
capable of restoring an image such as the one in Figure 1. many
of these filters are deceptive because they alter the image,
giving the false impression of having improved it, but they are
at times only useful for aesthetic purposes. It is advisable not
to employ a filter if the basics of its operation are unknown.

As an example of a poor job, we mention the one created with a
fantasy filter at the request of the  IIEE in  Figure 3 A, which
could be interpreted as a dog. The idea is not to argue if the
subject is a dog or not; all that is shown here is that this
particular work is poorly executed. The diagonal lines that
betray the presence of motion blur are highly visible, and one
of the legs is unfolded in the same way as in the original
photo. Overall, this image has the same geometry as the
original, but different coloring. In other words, there is no
evidence of restoration  in this retouching. The way in which
the colors have been altered is also noticeable.

Figure 3: A-Retouching performed for  IIEE. B and C - Sculpture
3D

Investigation conducted by physicist Andres Duarte.

Scientific Director of CIFAE Chile

-----

A Report from KODAK Chile

The Kodak report, while not certifying the process of
"acknowlegement of objects or external elements within a digital
photo" by company policy, has been an important source document
in this reseach.

Some parts of this report contain the following information:

The information confirms that the photo was indeed taken using a
Kodak DX 6490 camera.

Dimension 1656x1242 pixels
Color depth 24 bpp
Density 96x96 dpi
Subsampling 2:1:1
Color space YCbCr
Mode Baseline
Compression JPEG
Exposure time 0.1 sec
F-Number 3.6
Exposure prog Normal program
EXIF ver 2.2
Time original 2004:05:10 17:40:18
Time digitized 2004:05:10 17:40:18
Component conf YCbCr
Shutter speed 197121 s
Aperture 3.6
Exposure bias 3.6
Max aperture 3.6
Metering mode Pattern
Light source Unknown Flash
Focal length 52.6 mm
Maker note KDK0101IDX6490
FlashPix ver 1.0
Colorspace sRGB
XY Dimension 1656x1242 pixels
Exposure index 140
Sensing method One- chip color area sensor
File source DSC
Scene source Directly photographed image

Sincerely,

Kodak Chile

-----

The CIFAE Report

Among some of the conclusions that can be drawn from the CIFAE
report, we can say that the procedures applied up to now in
analyzing the image  of Parque Forestal, and in which some have
thought to see a dog, are mistaken. At least in the positions
know.

In oIn oIn other words, if this image in fact corresponds to a
canine, the superficial analyses performed until now have NOT
proved it.

CIFAE will continue to analyse the image and we shall
continue to keep our readers abreast of further developments.


-----

Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales IHU
Special thanks to CIFAE








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:15:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:09:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:30:47 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:12:38 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

<snip>

Nick Pope worked for a Department of the British government
which was tasked with fielding and investigating UFO reports,
along with any number of other odd occurrences. The criteria for
determining a particular event as worthy of its attention was
its relevance to air defense. To the extent that he performed
these tasks, several statements are reasonable.

1)To any reporter wanting information as to the quantity or
quality of UFO reporting while he was on duty, he was certainly
(along with others) the "British Government's UFO expert".

2)To any viewer of American TV, his position and duties would
certainly lend themselves to his being regarded as "The man
behind the UKs X-Files". 3)His work and his title would indeed
provide a clear rationale for calling him "Britain's Fox
Mulder".

If Mr. Pope was preceded or succeeded by others, then others
could reasonably lay claim to these title(s), as well.

My guess (and only a guess) is that Mr. Pope is less than proud
of the labels, but resigned to the comparisons, apt as they are.

The article cited does little to discount these labels, but does
add context to the question of the British governments interest
in...and official response to...UFOs and other aerial phenomena.
Certainly it supports Mr. Pope's statement that he was tasked
with such investigations. Whatever else you make of it is
opinion.


Kyle King








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                          Two New 3-Color UFO Maps

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:07:51 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:11:33 -0400
Subject: Two New 3-Color UFO Maps


Hello all:

I'm not sure if I mentioned these two new maps on this List yet.
I'm making regional maps now that concentrate on parts of the
USA and elsewhere. Instead of the usual white dots representing
UFO sightings for all years, I have layered the new maps so
that:

Blue dots = Antiquity through December, 1959 Violet dots = 20
years, 1960 - 1979 _and_ Green dots = 1980 to the present.

This one is for the Pacific Northwest:

http://www.larryhatch.net/NWSTATES.html

It shows very definite differences in sightings distribution for
these 3 arbitrary eras, as pointed out by the text.

The next one is the Southwest States of the USA:

http://www.larryhatch.net/SWSTATES.html

... with state abbreviations in shocking yellow. Maybe I should
tone that down a bit.

I am working on others in this series now, and will provide URLs
shortly. Map freaks like myself may be interested.


Thanks

- Larry








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

               UK Big Brother Reality Show Discusses Sightings

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:18:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:18:20 -0400
Subject: UK Big Brother Reality Show Discusses Sightings




Source: THe Daily Record - Glasgow

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14439355%26method=full%26siteid=89
488%26headline=big-brother--splice-of-chicken-name_page.html

07-19-004


Big Brother: Splice Of Chicken

Michelle and Stu most likely to tie the knot for TV wedding
ceremony

By Steven Ventura

MICHELLE could walk up the aisle with her Chicken Stu - in the
Big Brother house.

But despite the lovestruck Geordie girl's adoration for the
floppy-haired student, the ceremony will only be for fun.

The housemates have been ordered to organise a BB wedding for
this week's task.

And the house lovebirds seem the obvious pair to play the bride
and groom.

The other housemates will be members of the wedding party and
the preparations include speech writing, outfit making and stag
and hen nights before the ceremony on Wednesday.

Big Brother will tell them the details of the task today.

Meanwhile, Victor and Michelle bonded over tales of close
encounters with aliens.

The self-styled Milkman, who claims he 'always delivers', has
been talking to Jason about the possibility of bedding Michelle
- because Stuart is reluctant to have sex with her in the house.
The pair chatted about the TV series The X-Files before Michelle
said: 'Have you ever thought you've seen a UFO,Vic?'

He replied: 'Yep. I was about 13 and I was coming back from
playing football with a couple of my friends and in the distance
it just flew, then stopped a bit and then just pelted off.'

Michelle pleaded: 'Answer honestly - before it stopped and
before it nicked off really quickly, did it go really bright?'

With a bemused Nadia and Dan listening, Victor replied: 'Yeah.'
Michelle shrieked: 'Did it?' He replied: 'Yeah, really bright.'

Michelle then said she too had seen a UFO.

She said: 'I used to sleep with my blinds open and my curtains
up. I pointed to a particular star - I knew there was something
odd about it.

'Ten minutes later it got so, so bright and it started moving
across the sky.'

Victor said: 'It was so weird. I actually forgot I'd seen this
until like last year.

'It was so weird, just this thing appeared out of nowhere and it
was weirdly shaped and it stopped and it was shining.'

Earlier, a different kind of sighting spooked some of the
housemates.

Glasgow University graduate Shell went into hysterics after
discovering a spider in the bedroom.

Victor stepped in and collected the creature before releasing it
safely in the garden.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                        Aliens Ontology And Metaphor

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:59:12 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:21:57 -0400
Subject: Aliens Ontology And Metaphor


List,

Here's a quick brainstorm from my blog, Posthuman Blues:


I keep returning to John Mack's notion of "reified metaphor."
The "aliens" may not be what they seem. Of course, to most, they
don't seem like anything . . . except perhaps a useful portal
into aberrant psychology or pop-culture run riot.

The "conventional wisdom": Gray aliens are harvesting us for our
genes. It's possible. But Mack's reasoning (which is admittedly
elliptical) suggests there's something else going on - something
that transcends mere genetics. We latch onto the "genetic
harvesting" scenario because it makes sense to us; we live in an
age of exponentiating biotech, so it seems sensible to assume
that extraterrestrial visitors will be obsessed with similar
concerns.

But a careful look at world folklore reveals that "aliens" have
always been with us in one form or another. There are two
immediate explanations:

1.) Extraterrestrials have been here for a long time and humans
have tended to address them in terms of their own techno-
mythological vocabulary. Thus the "little people" of Celtic myth
were perfectly real but not "supernatural." (Arthur C. Clarke:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology would appear
indistinguishable from magic.")

2.) Humans have simply been projecting their fears and hopes
onto the collective unconscious; yesterday's faeries and kobolds
are today's aliens. We simply use what we know to define the
notion of the Other; it's inevitable that a technological
society like our own would latch onto a scientifically informed
vision of alien geneticists - even if the model rings hollow
upon close inspection.

This was how Carl Sagan left matters in "The Demon-Haunted
World," grossly misrepresenting Jacques Vallee's "multiverse"
thesis, which posits that we are somehow involved with an unseen
intelligence that camouflages itself to fit the reigning
zeitgeist. According to Vallee, both "aliens" and "faeries" are
equally misleading labels for something that can't be properly
addressed using a single-universe model.

Are our perceptions so fragile that our brains are forced to
manufacture new and better diguises for our visitors? Is the
"visiting" intelligence (given that it exists) responsible for
its apparent cultural camouflage, or do we effectively hide its
true nature from ourselves, as reflexively as we might swat at a
bothersome fly?

Mack's concept of "reified metaphor" might help to excavate
something real from the desert of illusion. Perhaps human
consciousness exists on several levels at once. "Reality" - the
world we think we inhabit - might represent a relatively low
level of awareness, a crude virtual reality designed to keep us
from over-taxing our seemingly meat-based brains.

The computer I'm writing this on may only be a shade more "real"
than the "My Computer" icon on my screen's desktop. In the same
way, genes might be mere symbols - elements in a "Matrix"-style
consensual hallucination.

So what are the "aliens" trying to tell us? We're told they
extract ova and semen; that they're keen on "punch biopsies" and
nasal implants. Is there an intelligible symbolism at work
behind the forever-rippling veil of sensationalism?

If so, can we even hope to decode it?


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot.nul)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com
Hot Memes Daily!

New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:57:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:24:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:44:59 -0500
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Kelly Freeman <Khfflsciufo.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:03:55 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory
<snip>

>>As a final note, I don't know about anybody else, but I consider
>>the terms "kidnapped by space aliens" or just "space aliens"
>>demeaning in nature and we should encourage a more objective
>>description, such as 'unknown entities'.

><snip>

>"Space aliens" demeaning...? Demeaning to whom? The same people
>who think "thousands of civilians killed in war" should read
>"acceptable losses" or "collateral damage"?

>If someone believes they were abducted by "unknown entities", it
>follows that the abductors COULD be men in black ski masks...or
>gnomes.

>Nope, these people believe they were abducted by space aliens.
>They're aliens who come from space.

>That the term is a subject of ridicule is in part due to the
>fact that so many abductees begin their story with, "You're
>going to think I'm crazy but...". Even they themselves realize
>how "crazy" it sounds. But changing the typical reaction will
>not be accomplished by giving it a less "demeaning" name, I
>trust.

>The ridicule does nothing to diminish the truth. Galileo was
>ridiculed.

Hi Kyle, All,

If I may jump in for a quick comment.

You write:

>For the record, I have always preferred the term
>"extraterrestrials". It's accurate and it sounds more
>scientific.

Kyle, I'm an "abductee" and _I_ don't have a clue as to what
these things are or where they are from. Because they 'can'
travel in space doesn't mean that they are _from_ space. The
term "ET" when used to refer to the 'abductors' a misnomer. More
accurate and descriptive is Budd Hopkins' term, 'UFO occupants.'
The neutral term 'UFO occupants' doesn't suggest or speculate as
to the origin of these 'beings'.

I cast my vote for 'UFO occupants'


Best,

John Velez








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                 Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:39:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:04:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:57:34 -0700
>Subject: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

>Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.

>Science Frontiers, No. 154, Jul-Aug, 2004, pp. 1 & 2

>Source: http://www.science-frontiers.com

>ASTRONOMY

>Could We *Really* Be At The Center of The Universe?

>Newly published data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS),
>led by Max Tegmark of the University of Pennsylvania, shows that
>our galaxy is centered on a great concentric distribution of
>galaxies.

>The foregoing quotation is based upon an ambitious astronomical
>survey effort involving more than 200 astronomers at 13
>institutions. So far, over 200,000 galaxies have been mapped.
>The accompanying figure is a two-dimensional, wedge-shaped slice
>of this cosmic map. It pinpoints approximately 33,500
>galaxies. ...Note the rough concentricity about the earth.

>Source: http://www.sdss.org/news/releases/galaxy_zoom.jpg

>The roughly concentric distribution of galaxies about the point
>of the wedge, which is earth, is inescapable. Also readily
>apparent is a decrease in galaxy density with increasing
>distance from the earth.

>The implications of the SDSS work so far is highly unsettling
>for two reasons:

>1 - The Cosmological Principle, which demands that the universe
>be homogeneous with no favored center, is violated.

>2 - The earth *does* seem to be at center of the observable
>universe contrary to the adamant philosophical declaration of
>science that the earth and its cargo are insignificant in the
>Grand Scheme of Things---whatever *that* is!

>(Hartnett, John; "New Evidence: We Really Are at the Centre of
>the Universe," *TJ*, 18:9, no. 1, 2004. TJ = Technical Journal.)

>Comments. The accompanying SDSS map is consistent with the long-
>claimed quantization of redshifts. (SF#105)

>It is possible that astronomers misinterpret redshifts as
>yardsticks thereby invalidating the SDSS maps.

>No one yet knows whether the earth might also be at the center
>of the distributions of dark matter and dark energy - assuming
>they exist and are not uniformly dispersed.

I find these little scientistic (sic) rationalizations of homo-
centricity very obvious and convenient and so very insulting to
me personally on a multitude of levels. It is an offence to
humility, rationality, fairness, intelligence, justice,
acceptability, objectivity, constructiveness, comprehensiveness,
and even thoughtfulness. It is as bereft of creativity as it is
of responsibility, and it is five steps backward for every step
taken grudgingly forward to elevation, enlightenment, and
advancement.

I think these 'scientists' are fixed on their centrality for the
same reason that everything thing around 'us' apparently red-
shifts. The distances around our galaxy increase relative to the
next galactic body... so it only _looks_ like everything extends
'away' from us. We're at a 'faux' center for the same reason
that each individual human can easily imagine 'themselves' at
the universal center... it only 'feels' that way (forgetting
that perception is the reality and this may be a universe with
many trillions of conscious centers). In the case of some so
inflicted by their own crippling hubris they can intellectualize
(imagine) themselves at the center of their convulsed,
inconsistent, and restricted little well-boxed universe, still.

Besides, the center of the universe, located where it has been
declared to be in 1994, is in my office and has been coordinated
with a foil star less than a quarter inch in width and affixed
to a hefty blob of raw interstellar iron (iron is key because
its creation puts the fire out at the centers of huge stars
precipitating an explosion that creates every other element in
creation), and when it's moved here... huge and momentous
disruptions occur at the spherical edges of time and space...
which is no less juvenile and presumptuous than intimating that
humanity is at the sun source of creation, and so, favored by
God... a likely jewel in that God's crown?

"Chef's Salty _Balls_", even if it were _true_, we'd do
ourselves a better turn to conduct our affairs like it _wasn't_
true! Humility is required to keep us from the most corrosive of
elitist tyranny well reflected in the real history of our last
2000 years... and account additionally _riddled_ with references
to ET UFOs, too.

We ain't alone 'in', or at the center 'of' _this_ universe. Get
real, Holmes.

We're lucky to be conscious and self-aware. We're lucky to be
able to _aspire_ to a center! We should be _relieved_ that we
are one among many, and not have to assume the responsibility
some so airily assume _without_ responsibility (to salve their
wounded little egos)! _Or_ authorization! _Or_ right! Moreover,
we know we're not at the center of our own _galaxy_. We're
either the center of 'stuff'... or we're _not_. How far off
center is _too_ far?


alienview.nul
www.AlienView.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

Photo Album: http://www.alienview.net/AVAlbum.htm
(send picture as attachment to alienview.nul)
Splash page:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlienViewGroup/
Radio Show & Splash Page: http://www.alienview.net/alienviews.htm
Radio Show Archives: Out of Service at this time...
http://www.alienview.net/N2Ltune.html -- The music in me...








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                   Re: Jeeves Dumbed Down Bigtime - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:42:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:07:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Jeeves Dumbed Down Bigtime - Groff


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:54:20 -0700
>Subject: Jeeves Dumbed Down Bigtime

>>From time to time, I check the search engines to see if my
>little website is doing any good. After Google and Yahoo, I
>check "Ask Jeeves".

>Try it yourself. Query Jeeves with the one word "UFO":

>I'll save you some keystrokes, just click this:

>http://web.ask.com/web?q=UFO

>Now. What's wrong with that page, aside from my site not
>immediately showing up that is?

>Look at the right-hand box headed "Related Searches".

>Count down past 'rods' and similar garbage to the ninth item:

>"UFO Sitings".

>'SITINGS'... not 'Sightings'!?

>Maybe this seems a small matter to a few of you using 'Winders-
>98', but it just galls the crap out of me.

>Site = location, place... as in 'We decided to build a dam on
>this SITE because of this convenient river.'

>Sight' implies vision, seeing, (sigh!)

>As it turns out, Ask Jeeves gives my web-'site' fairly decent
>ratings. I can't complain, maybe that explains the droolers with
>AOL addresses that write in now and again.

>We are lucky to have some good gatekeepers on this list, Jan,
>John and others. Please contrast this with "Jeeves" the butler
>who cannot spell, nor parse, nor discriminate.

>If you have a single doubt about this, just click on Jeeves
>recommendations for "UFO SITINGS".

>You will find something like the following:

>http://web.ask.com/web?qsrc=6&q=UFO+Sitings

>I'm glad my site (not sight) is not on _that_ page.

>So, what of the 'Jeeves' concept? Is this some pretention to
>class and gentility? I prefer beer. I'm somehow reminded of
>prisoners who find profound and life changing religious
>convictions, just before the parole board convenes.


Well Larry,

At least your site made it to page 2. My poor little UFO Tools
site didn't even make it at all.

Maybe I should do a search for UFO "Tules" :-)


Terry








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                 Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:21:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:00:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:57:34 -0700
>Subject: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

>Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.

>Science Frontiers, No. 154, Jul-Aug, 2004, pp. 1 & 2

>Source: http://www.science-frontiers.com

>ASTRONOMY

>Could We *Really* Be At The Center of The Universe?

>Newly published data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS),
>led by Max Tegmark of the University of Pennsylvania, shows that
>our galaxy is centered on a great concentric distribution of
>galaxies.
<snip>

Wow. Let's start with this... The "Cosmological Principle" -
"Viewed on sufficiently large distance scales, there are no
preferred directions or preferred places in the Universe." (per
the Univ. of Tennessee at Knoxville Physics web site)

This principle as stated does not say that the universe has no
center, and your claim that the earth is at the center does not
diminish the "Principle" at all. The "Principle" simply states
that from any scale that reflects the vastness of the universe,
the distribution of visible or measurable matter is pretty
consistent. In other plain words, every patch of universe looks
pretty much like every other patch of universe, as long as you
are looking at a big enough patch. 33,000 galaxies...as seen
from earth...is obviously not a suitably large "patch". 33,000
galaxies in the vastness of the universe is a pretty tiny
sample. I mean we only have 6 billion or so people on this rock,
and 33,000 of them certainly don't represent the whole,
especially when the ones looking are in a single place seeing
only what is in their vicinity.

Your question about astronomers misinterpreting red shifts seems
a bit off the mark. A much more likely possibility is that you
have misinterpreted your data, applying your desire to "prove"
something you apparently already believe.

To paraphrase the words of Inigo Montoya, "I do not think it
means what you think it means."


Kyle King








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

             Re: Fighting Fear & Conspiracy Theories On Moonlit

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:56:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:04:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Fighting Fear & Conspiracy Theories On Moonlit


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
>Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:42:35 -0400
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Fighting Fear And Conspiracy Theories On Moonlit Night


>Source: St. Petersburg Times - Florida

>http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/18/Columns/Fighting_fear_and_con.shtml

>07-18-04

>Fighting Fear And Conspiracy Theories On Moonlit Night

>By Jan Glidewell
>Times Columnist

>I sat, a few nights ago, trying very hard not to think a whole
>lot about where I was.

<snip>

Howdy All,

Mr. Glidewell writes:

>The only trick for the next several weeks, for me, will be to
>ignore strange lights in the sky, and to try to get to sleep
>every night without the word "probe" going through my mind.

Don't worry... it's not your 'mind' the probe will be going
through!


Best,

John Velez
"Bar-keep! A dollop of K-Y jelly for everyone in the house,
please!"








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

              CCCRN News: Formation Report #3 - Essex County ON

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:03:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:06:22 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Formation Report #3 - Essex County ON


CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

July 19, 2004

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


FORMATION REPORT #3 - ESSEX COUNTY, ONTARIO

The third reported formation for this year, a circle in
soybeans, found June 24. Approximately 6.6 metres (22 feet)
diameter. Two small truncated triangular "lobes" are attached to
the circle, one on either side (180 degrees apart). The leaves
were initially missing on all plants within the circle, as if
they had been "burned away", and the remaining leafless stalks
were dark brown in colour, still standing and not flattened (the
field crop itself was about 3 inches tall). Over the next week
or so, the remaining stalks disintegrated, leaving only bare
dirt within the circle. There were only about half a dozen
plants within the circle which remained unscathed. The farmers
also mentioned that a similar formation was found in another of
their fields two years ago, in wheat, but not reported at the
time, and that "flashing coloured lights" were seen descending
into that field the night before. Another neighbouring farmer
had reported a single "classic" type circle in wheat last year
as well, but also not reported at the time. Investigation in
progress by CCCRN Ontario, MUFON Ontario and researcher Nicholas
Reiter from the USA. Initial ground photos and preliminary field
report are on the CCCRN web site. The farmer has requested that
the specific location not be publicized.

(Note: perhaps the "missing" barley plants in the Taber, Alberta
formation could be explained by a similar process? The farmers
in that case have not been willing for a ground investigation to
be done yet, not even ground photographs, but efforts are being
made. They will allow aerial photographs if someone can be found
to fly over and do this. Our current pilots in the prairies are
not close to this location unfortunately).

There are also two other as-yet unconfirmed formations, at
Thunder Bay, Ontario (July 15) consisting of "ovals and lines"
in barley, covering about a block in size (possibly a randomly
downed area), as well as a possible pictogram-style formation of
circles, rings and lines in pasture grass near Prince George,
British Columbia (early July).

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe send an e-mail with either Subscribe CCCRN News in
the subject line to: cccrnnews.nul

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, media and scientists

c. CCCRN, 2004






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                          Secrecy News -- 07/19/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:57:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:08:13 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/19/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 67
July 19, 2004


**      PRESS COALITION DEFENDS ACCESS TO "CRITICAL OVERSIGHT INFO"
**      MILITARY TRIBUNALS: HISTORICAL PATTERNS AND LESSONS (CRS)
**      SOME CRS REPORTS ON THE MIDDLE EAST
**      A LESSON IN KOREAN LINGUISTICS
**      WINE JUG, FOLDING CHAIR AND THE PROBLEM OF RETRANSLATION


PRESS COALITION DEFENDS ACCESS TO "CRITICAL OVERSIGHT INFO"

In response to expanding government controls on a poorly defined
category of unclassified information called "sensitive security
information" (SSI), a new coalition of journalism advocacy
organizations is calling upon government agencies to preserve
public access to what it terms "critical oversight information"
(COI).

"What is COI? It is, most simply, any information a citizen
might use to judge whether his or her public servants are
serving well," the Coalition of Journalists for Open Government
wrote.

"It is information that speaks to the quality and integrity of
their performance as policy makers, managers or employees of our
seaports, airports and transit systems. It is budget information
and details on revenue and spending. It is information about
personnel and their qualifications, training and performance. It
is information about the construction and maintenance of new
public assets, including the myriad change orders that seem an
inevitable feature of the government contract process. It is
information about deals with carriers and suppliers and vendors
and tenants. It is also information about public convenience and
use of the public areas -- and about personal safety."

"Without restraint exercised by those given the authority to
mark information as SSI, much that is COI could be withheld or
withdrawn from public inspection."

The comments were submitted to the Transportation Security
Agency and the Department of Transportation, which recently
adopted new regulations that would expand the application of the
"sensitive security information" marking.

"We are deeply concerned that unrestricted use of the Sensitive
Security Information (SSI) designation -- a process with no
review for efficacy or propriety -- will have a seriously
adverse impact on traditional citizen and media oversight of the
governance of our seaports, airports and transit systems," the
Coalition stated.

The new Coalition includes member organizations such as the
American Society of Newspaper Editors, the Newspaper Association
of America, the Society of Professional Journalists, and several
other major media advocacy groups.

The text of the July 16 Coalition comments, written by Pete
Weitzel, may be found here:

http://www.rcfp.org/news/documents/20040716-ssicomment.pdf


MILITARY TRIBUNALS: HISTORICAL PATTERNS AND LESSONS (CRS)

The history and operation of military tribunals in U.S. military
law from the Revolutionary War to the present is elucidated in a
major new report from the Congressional Research Service

See "Military Tribunals: Historical Patters and Lessons" by
Louis Fisher, Congressional Research Service, July 9, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32458.pdf


SOME CRS REPORTS ON THE MIDDLE EAST

Some other recent Congressional Research Service reports on
Middle East-related topics include:

"Palestinians and Middle East Peace: Issues for the United
States," updated July 8, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/IB92052.pdf

"Israeli-United States Relations," updated July 9, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/IB82008.pdf

"Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance," updated July 12, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/IB85066.pdf

"Islam: Sunnis and Shiites," February 23, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS21745.pdf

"The Islamic Traditions of Wahhabism and Salafiyya," December
22, 2003:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS21695.pdf

And unrelated to the Middle East but just for good measure, "The
Federal Networking and Information Technology Research and
Development Program: Funding Issues and Activities," updated
July 1, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/IB10130.pdf

Online public access to Congressional Research Service reports
like these is not authorized by the present congressional
leadership.


A LESSON IN KOREAN LINGUISTICS

Secrecy News missed some nuances and included some errors in the
discussion last week of the simmering controversy over whether
the name of the South Korean President should be written "Roh
Moo-hyun," as the South Korean government prefers, or "No Mu-
hyun," as the CIA World Fact Book would have it. (SN, 07/16/04).

Tom Emerson, a computational linguist specializing in Chinese,
Korean, and Arabic natural language processing, helped set us
straight.

"The pronunciation of the President's name sounds like 'Roh', so
a _transcription_ of his name would use this, as it reflects the
sounds heard," Mr. Emerson explained.

"However, if you transliterate the actual Korean letters used to
write his surname, you will literally get 'No' in all extant
transliteration systems, including the McCune-Reischauer [not
'Reischauser'] system" and half a dozen others.

"The CIA is using a transliteration of the native hankul
spelling of the President's name, which is perfectly valid," Mr.
Emerson said.

"The objections coming from the Koreans stem, I expect, from the
fact that 'No' carries semantic baggage that is detrimental to
the public image of their President."

"Interestingly enough," he added, "Roh's name is spelled
differently in North Korea than it is in South Korea. If you
take North Korea's spelling and transliterate into Latin you
would have 'Lo'."

"You can imagine the complexities of dealing with names when
searching for people on watch-lists and the like."


WINE JUG, FOLDING CHAIR AND THE PROBLEM OF RETRANSLATION

Another linguistic challenge for intelligence agencies arises
from the distortions that are introduced by translation and then
exacerbated further by retranslation into a third language or
even back into the original source language.

Thus, a recent story from the Beijing daily newspaper Keji
Ribao, translated into English by the CIA's Foreign Broadcast
Information Service (FBIS), reports that "the latest generation
of US military surveillance satellites" includes systems named
"Wine Jug" and "Folding Chair."

But there are no such systems.

What happened here is that, as in a child's game of "telephone,"
the original content was altered in each translation and
transmission until it became practically unrecognizable.

Allen Thomson, a former CIA analyst and specialist in national
security space, was able to pierce the linguistic veil.

"Folding Chair," he explained, must be a reference to the
satellite program"Jumpseat," as it is known in the open
literature. Likewise, "Wine Jug" is a retranslation of the
codename "Magnum."

It is clear from the context, though not to the FBIS translator,
that allusions in the same article to the French surveillance
spacecraft "Cherry" and "Zenong" actually refer to the CERISE
and Xenon systems.

See the article "Reconnaissance Satellites Can Peek Into Your
Privacy" by Hou Jing, originally published in Keji Ribao, May
26, 2004, and published in translation by the Foreign Broadcast
Information Service last week:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/07/bkr052604.html

Of further interest, the article states that China has
"successfully launched 17 individual surveillance satellites."


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                       Paranormal Encounters Group UK

From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:15:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:10:40 -0400
Subject: Paranormal Encounters Group UK


Paranormal Encounters Group

Have you had an alarming paranormal experience?

Have you encountered UFOs or unearthly beings?

Have you had nightmares that you cannot explain?


If you answered yes to any of these questions and the event
still troubles you, then why not let 'PEG' try to help. 'PEG' is
a self-help group dedicated to assisting and supporting anyone
who has experienced strange or troubling events that they cannot
explain. 'PEG' offers a sympathetic, safe and secure meeting
place where you can discuss and share your encounters with
others who have had similar experiences. We also have access to
the services of trained counsellors and psychic mediums who may
be able to assist with any issues that you might have.

In the UK, Contact PEG on 07746 228464

Or Email PEG.nul








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

               Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:41:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:13:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:23:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:49:48 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

<snip>

>>Yes, the desert vegetation changes very slowly. The Walnut
>trees and the cottonwood tree are at least 100 years old. The
>burn and scorch marks are apparent and noticeable but seem
>somewhat weathered, as you'd expect. These trees are still alive
>but the heat damage clearly seen.

>>>I would think that any traces of burnt vegetation would have
>>>blown away, been scoured away in a sandstorm, washed away in the
>>>rare torrential rains etc. long long since.

>The immediate area only gets a few inches of rain a year and
>sometimes, nothing at all. The wind is a factor but hasn't
>erased the evidence. I would say that this area hasn't changed
>much in the last 57 years. The biggest land modifications are
>caused by the cattle that wander around the site. The
>cristobalite is impervious to alteration.

>Ah! Scorch marks still apparent. If there is any black
>carbon residue (hard ash) then samples could be carefully
>scraped off and collected. Great care must be taken not
>to remove any living or recently dead tissues.

>Then, being almost all carbon, maybe it could be carbon dated!
>Somebody else's expertise needed here, way out of my bailiwick]
>I don't know what the margins of error are in such testing, or
>whether half a century is long enough for good results.
>Hopefully, they could date the scorching back to 57 years plus
>or minus a few, rather than say half or double that span.
Larry,

I have thought about that possibility but my understanding is
that radio carbon dating wouldn't be accurate for such a short
time-span. I think the error range is one hundred years. The
best test would be dendrochronology and I've inquired into that.
I could probably get a definitive test for about two thousand
dollars. I have a person who'd be willing to do the test. I
don't have two grand to spend this way, but someone may want to
help out or know of funds that might be available for this
purpose.

>Frankly, scorched trees in the desert, in close association with
>glassified minerals as described, sound like nothing so much as
>a massive bolt of lightning, or ten, or any number of them over
>years, decades.....

I thought of lightning; the cottonwood tree is certainly a
candidate but the three hundred yards of walnut trees (maybe 35-
45 individual trees) are another matter.

The cristobalite is not formed from the base rock which is
rhyolite. The cristobalite is a melt on top of the bedrock and
is also plastered to two hundred thousand square yards of sand,
and small, individual rocks and bacterial mats.

>Nothing uncommon about that in New Mexico. There was supposedly
>a thunderstorm going on at the time per Mac Brazel if memory
>serves.

Yes, these storms are very common. I was caught in a violent
thunder and lightning event during my second visit to the site,
which was soon followed by a flash flood that nearly cost my
brother his car. I'm quite sure that the site has been struck by
lightning on many occasions; so have most other desert locations
but none are covered with cristobalite.


Ed








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:57:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:16:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:30:47 +0100
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:12:38 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:03:40 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:36:18 +0100
>>>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>>Notwithstanding the above, I should make it clear that most of
>>>>the abductees with whom I've worked contacted me after my tour
>>>>of duty on the British Government's UFO project. From memory, no
>>>>more than half a dozen abductees contacted me while I was on the
>>>>'UFO Desk'.

>>>What exactly do you mean by "the British Government's UFO
>>>Project"? You seem to be implying that this was a special
>>>operation that was set up purely to investigate and report on
>>>UFOs, quite separate from the routine MoD job that a number of
>>>other people have done before and after your spell at the desk.
>>>Perhaps you could tell us a little more about this 'Project'?

>>John,

>>What I mean by "The British Government's UFO Project" is the
>>work done officially to research and investigate UFOs. The lead
>>for this work has always been with the Ministry of Defence and
>>the Department has been looking into UFO sightings since 1950.
>>As you say, various other people have been involved in this work
>>both before and after my tour of duty. I certainly didn't mean
>>to imply that there are two parallel projects. There aren't.
>>Part of the problem is that various people have described the
>>MOD's work here in different ways. References have been made to
>>"the UFO desk", while others use the name of the different
>>sections that have led on this work over the years: S4, S6, DS8,
>>Sec(AS), DAS, etc.

>I have recently come across an article in a UFO magazine from
>1971, published by a south-east London bases UFO group called
>'SIRIUS' The magazine is of the same name. It is a verbatin
>transcription of an interview with a Mr Leslie Ackhurst, who
>appears to have been a former occupant of Nick Pope's desk at
>the Ministry of Defence (MoD):

>"The MoD investigates reports of unidentified flying objects
>because of possible air defence implications. We treat each
>report we receive on its face value, but our experience is, in
>fact, that the majority of reports turn out to be
>misidentifications of mundane occurances <snip>

Exactly. The MOD's policy and conclusions on the subject are
entirely consistent with those of Project Blue Book.

>"We don't release details to the public. This is not peculiar to
>UFO reports; this is under the normal rule that official
>information is not generally available to the public. We treat
>reports in the same way as we'd treat any correspondence from
>the public. In other words, we treat it as private
>correspondence between the person reporting and the department.

>"If people ask us, we give them figures of reports received and
>this kind of thing <snip> the reason we look into them is in case
>there is any possible air-defence implication. We've found none,
>as a matter of fact, but this is the sole reason we look into
>them. We don't look into them for any other reason and therefore
>couldn't possibly justify sorting them out and either obtaining
>the person's permission for publishing the reports, or
>publishing them in such a way that we don't mention individuals'
>names. <snip>

The policy here has changed since 1971, with the introduction of
the Code of Practice on Access to Government Information. More
information is releasable. That said, the MOD has always
respected witness confidentiality. The Data Protection Act also
has a bearing here.

><snip>

>"We only persue enquiries to the extent that we consider it
>justifiable in the context of our interest in air defence <snip>]"

>Mark Stenhoof, who conducted the interview, describes Mr
>Akhurst's department as dealing with "aircraft noise and
>suchlike, besides UFO reports".

Right division, wrong section. During my tour of duty, flying
complaints were dealt with by Sec(AS)2b. We were Sec(AS)2a.

>Now this low-key bureacratic role seems rather at odds with the
>idea of "The British Government's UFO Project", which suggests a
>targeted investigation of the UFO phenomenon, perhaps along the
>line of the Condon Committee, rather than a by-product of the
>department which handles complaints about low-flying RAF
>aircraft and the like.

The MOD has been looking into the UFO phenomenon since 1950,
investigating specific sightings as they were reported and
undertaking some more general research into the phenomenon. If
you wish to describe this as a "targeted investigation" as
opposed to a "project", that is entirely your prerogative.

>However, "The British Government's UFO Project" does sound much
>more impressive if one is trying to establish oneself as the
>"Government's UFO Expert", "Britain's Fox Mulder", "The Man
>Behind the UK's X-Files", and other similar descriptions which
>have attached themselves, one way or another, to Mr Pope.

X-Files and Fox Mulder references were started by my colleagues
as a joke, during my tour of duty. They were later adopted by
the media and my publishers. At first I was a little irritated,
but I've been media trained and soon learnt that one can't be
too precious about labelling.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                 Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:03:15 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:17:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:57:34 -0700
>Subject: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

<snip>

>Could We *Really* Be At The Center of The Universe?

>Newly published data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS),
>led by Max Tegmark of the University of Pennsylvania, shows that
>our galaxy is centered on a great concentric distribution of
>galaxies.

>The foregoing quotation is based upon an ambitious astronomical
>survey effort involving more than 200 astronomers at 13
>institutions. So far, over 200,000 galaxies have been mapped.
>The accompanying figure is a two-dimensional, wedge-shaped slice
>of this cosmic map. It pinpoints approximately 33,500
>galaxies. ...Note the rough concentricity about the earth.

>Source: http://www.sdss.org/news/releases/galaxy_zoom.jpg

<snip>

Hi Everyone!

I believe that this growing body of SDSS data will provide us
with some of the answers to the big questions that science has
not so far been able to give us. One of these big questions is
about the existence of highly advanced and very intelligent ETs
out there.

Below is the transcript of a related story that I wrote and read
over the air nearly two years earlier.

Much of the reaction to my story was negative, especially from
fellow colleagues at York University where I work. A few even
went to great lengths to get me and our 'Cosmic Chronicles'
segment off the air for good. Fortunately the program manager
for Radio Glendon, Brad Snell, was very supportive and he
considered any reaction to a university radio show, including
negative ones, as good for the radio station and its listeners.

MUFON's first annual Canadian UFO symposium will be held in Nova
Scotia this September. The theme of this conference is "UFOs...
Thinking Outside The Box". Unless we can be introduced to new
ideas or can reinterpret accepted facts about UFOs - just like
we can on 'Cosmic Horizons', which is now heard all over the
world on several radio stations and through the Internet - I do
not see any immediate answers to the many questions ufology
still has.

Nick Balaskas

----------

Cosmic Chronicles, Feature Item #2
by Nick Balaskas
October 7, 2002

For Cosmic Horizons, 89.9 FM, Radio Glendon

This will surprise many of you, but recent astronomical evidence
supports the view that York University, a small part of our
Milky Way galaxy, is at the center of the universe.

Many of the members of the York University community have always
considered this to be the case, but for those few that had any
doubts, let me convince you with some very important new facts.

First of all, early in the 20th century it was discovered that
our universe was expanding.  It was observed that the "billions
and billions" of galaxies scattered throughout the universe,
including our own Milky Way galaxy, were all moving away from
each other. In 1929 astronomer Edwin Hubble found that the
wavelengths of the light emitted by the galaxies were shifted
towards the red end of their spectrum. The percentage of this
"red shift", as it came to be known, was proportional to the
speed of the galaxy and also to its distance from us. So
according to Hubble's law, the larger the red shift measured,
the greater the distance the galaxy was from us.

Since all these "billions and billions" of galaxies in the
universe were all moving away from us, it was thought that we
had to be at or near the center of the universe. This conclusion
was not a valid one since observers on any of the other galaxies
in the universe would also see all of the galaxies moving away
from them too, and there could be only one true center to the
universe.

As the number of red shift measurements for new galaxies
continued to increase over the last few decades, astronomers
noted that the galaxies clustered at evenly spaced or quantized
distances in all directions of the sky. At the present, all
these galaxies seem to outline a distinct series of evenly
spaced concentric spheres around our own galaxy. If these
concentric spheres of galaxies centered around us are real and
make up the structure of the universe, we would be forced to
scrap the big bang theory and come up with a new galactocentric
model with us at the center of the universe.

When one considers that there are billions and billions of
galaxies in the universe, anyone of which could have been the
one at the center, why did it have to be us? Physicist Russell
Humphreys, author of the recently published paper, "Our Galaxy
is the Center of the Universe, 'Quantized' Red Shifts Show", in
Technical Journal (vol. 16, no. 2) has calculated that the
probability that we are at the center of the universe by
accident to be less than one out of a quadrillion!

If all this is true, the secularist cosmologies of Albert
Einstein and Stephen Hawking would be proven wrong and the
obvious implication of this discovery would be that we are a
special creation of God, indeed!

In the third century B.C. a Greek relative of mine, Aristarchus
of Samos, proposed that the Earth and the planets revolved
around the Sun at the center of our solar system. The Earth-
centric theory won out (and regretably was also accepted as the
"gospel truth" by the compromising Roman Catholic Church
afterwards - but that's another story) until Nicolas Copernicus
came along in the late 16th  century (I am told his father was
Greek and that would make him another relative of mine too) and
revived the Sun-centric view.

Sometimes science advances by taking big steps backwards.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 19

                   Re: Origin Of The Term 'Grays'? - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:33:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:20:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Origin Of The Term 'Grays'? - Allan


>From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:13:55 -0700
>Subject: Origin Of The Term 'Grays'?

>As someone who has followed the UFO abduction phenomenon since
>the mid-eighties I am curious about the origin of the term
>"Grays" or "Greys" (I understand the "a" is more commonly used
>in American spellings and the "e" in British spellings) to refer
>to the small gray beings so frequently described by abductees.

>Is anyone aware of any book published before 1990 that refers
>to them by this name? In the eighties, from my recollection,
>they were generally referred to simply as aliens,
>extraterrestrials, UFO occupants or humanoids, or sometimes as
>EBEs (I think that term, meaning Extraterrestrial Biological
>Entities, came out of the MJ-12 documents or related documents
>on alleged crash retrievals).

>The first place I remember hearing them called "Grays", I think,
>was the Dulce papers or some of the rumors related to the Paul
>Bennewitz affair and the Christa Tilton abduction case. Most of
>that material was not published until the early nineties, as I
>understand.

>What I do know is that by 1995, if someone were to mention the
>Grays in the context of discussing UFO abductions, pretty much
>everyone familiar with the abduction phenomenon would have an
>immediate mental image of a small-bodied, bigheaded, black-eyed,
>gray- skinned humanoid.

What about the term EBE?

We are told, in the prime MJ-12 document (the Eisenhower
briefing) dated November 1952, that the term 'EBE' was coined by
Dr Detlev Bronk and his team in 1947, to describe the supposed
extraterrestrials found at Roswell.

But I have heard claims that 'EBE' is actually much more recent,
being invented by Paul Bennewitz c.1980. Can anyone shed any
light on this? Have any of Bennewitz's writings been found to
contain 'EBE'? If so, can we have source and date, please?

If and when such evidence is discovered, and it pre-dates
December 1984, it will put the final nail in the coffin of the
MJ-12 affair (much to Stanton Friedman's dismay) since it will
establish, finally, that the Eisenhower paper is a 1980s
forgery.


CDA







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 20

              Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:26:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:10:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:15:59 -0500
>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:30:47 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

>>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:12:38 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Alien Abduction Tales Offer Clues on Memory

><snip>

>Nick Pope worked for a Department of the British government
>which was tasked with fielding and investigating UFO reports,
>along with any number of other odd occurrences. The criteria for
>determining a particular event as worthy of its attention was
>its relevance to air defense. To the extent that he performed
>these tasks, several statements are reasonable.

>1)To any reporter wanting information as to the quantity or
>quality of UFO reporting while he was on duty, he was certainly
>(along with others) the "British Government's UFO expert".

>2)To any viewer of American TV, his position and duties would
>certainly lend themselves to his being regarded as "The man
>behind the UKs X-Files". 3)His work and his title would indeed
>provide a clear rationale for calling him "Britain's Fox
>Mulder".

>If Mr. Pope was preceded or succeeded by others, then others
>could reasonably lay claim to these title(s), as well.

I agree. While interviewees can ask to be captioned in a certain
way in television documentaries, reporters and viewers alike
will apply their own labels and draw parallels as they wish. I
try to correct factual inaccuracies where possible and
practicable, but I also have to recognise that much of what is
said and written about me is outwith my control.

>My guess (and only a guess) is that Mr. Pope is less than proud
>of the labels, but resigned to the comparisons, apt as they are.

>The article cited does little to discount these labels, but does
>add context to the question of the British governments interest
>in...and official response to...UFOs and other aerial phenomena.
>Certainly it supports Mr. Pope's statement that he was tasked
>with such investigations. Whatever else you make of it is
>opinion.

I've responded to John Rimmer's post on this, but to reiterate
the point, the X-Files/Fox Mulder labels were first adopted by
my colleagues as a joke. They called me "Spooky". The media and
my publishers then drew the same parallels. At first I did think
this trivialised the work of the project (sorry John, the
"targeted investigation"). But I've been through various MOD
media training courses and have learnt that you can't be too
precious about labelling.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 20

                  Re: NARCAP: Aviation Safety In US - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:46:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:19:05 -0400
Subject: Re: NARCAP: Aviation Safety In US - McCoy


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:43:42 -0700
>Subject: NARCAP: Aviation Safety In US

>NARCAP: Aviation Safety in US: Unidentified Aerial Phenomena and
>Under-Reporting Bias

>"Upon return to my domicile, JFK, I reported our sighting to the
>proper authorities. I was shortly visited by two federal
>investigators who evidently thought I was hallucinating for one
>of them stated he had seen spaceships while fishing in Great
>South Bay and was quite obviously trying to prove that I was a
>loony." -- Captain, Pan Am (ret.)

>"It must have been Huge! We were all due back at JFK about the
>same time two days later so I waited in the crew ready room to
>talk to them. None of them wanted to talk! They were afraid
>management would take them off of flying status and have them
>tested for booze and drugs. The story never came out!"
>--Flight Engineer, TWA (ret.)

>NARCAP Technical Report No. 8 - 10 July 2004>

>http://www.narcap.org/reports/TR8Bias1.htm

>Aviation Safety in America: Unidentified Aerial Phenomena and
>Under-Reporting Bias

>The issue of valid U.S. pilot reports of Unidentified Aerial
>Phenomena, UAP and the seeming lack of attention given to these
>reports by the aviation system is a complicated one. There is a
>longstanding bias in place that severely inhibits the reporting
>and investigation of UAP incidents. This bias stifles open
>discussion of UAP amongst aircrews, management, safety
>administrators, and the researchers who try to acquire
>information on this important topic. [excerpt taken from report]

>[much, much more at URL]

Hello All,

Being a former pro-pilot and now grounded due to medical condition,
I have said before that there is _nobody_ to turn to when you see
or experience something extraordinary.Particularly Airline pilots,
ATC controllers, etc.

I do think this is a shame and until the stigma is removed, it
won't quit. I do beleive there is a danger here. Wait till a
spectacular crash with say a bBig UFO and a loaded 747 - over a
city.


GT McCoy







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 20

                 Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:44:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:24:20 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Sparks


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:52:10 -0200
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:57:56 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

<snip>

>>This "report" is akin to that by the "astronomer" from Kwazu-Natal
>>who stated Venus was mistaken for a UFO, when in fact Venus was
>>below the horizon at the time of the sighting... among other
>>unscientific ruminations.

>>So many experts, so little expertise.

>Dear Brad and Kyle:

>You are certainly right and I cannot forgive myself for not
>realising that sooner. Yes, we cannot pay any attention to this
>thing and take it seriously. We should just drop at once these
>"new revelations" made by that Doctor in the garbage can and
>forget it at all.

>Maybe, indeed, we should just come to this poor man and say at
>once: "I am sorry Doctor, but I will have to dump your info in
>the garbage can, UNLESS you provide an extention to your report
>to the lenght and to the number of details that my American
>colleagues find appropriate".

Dear A.J.,

What "info"? You presented no medical info whatsoever!!!! Put
the zero info into the place where zero info belongs, the
garbage can like you yourself said - but don't put any
scientific medical data in the garbage if you actually have any,
just tell us! Your so-called "Doctor" does not SOUND like a
medical "Doctor" from what you presented, don't you get it?

A Nuclear Physicist should talk like a Nuclear Physicist - we
should hear about mass, energy, velocity, electron volts, atomic
numbers, rads or sieverts, momentum, spin, etc. etc.

An Astrophysicist should talk like an Astrophysicist - we should
hear about luminosity, gravitation, temperature, color, density,
acceleration and motion, etc. etc.

A Medical "Doctor" should talk like a Medical Doctor - we should
hear about blood pressure, circulation, respiration, blood cell
counts, lesions, and any lack thereof with a strange non-human
creature, x-ray imaging, EKG, EEG, dosage, diagnosis, etc. etc.

You wasted 30 lines of text that could have been used to answer
the nearly 30 medical data items that I listed, and instead you
chose to beat the hot air! And my list was not meant to be
complete, but just to give an idea of what MD's talk about
_medically_.

And the point is not to have to drag out this medical data with
a big argument when it should have been presented right from the
start to establish the so-called 'Doctor's' credibility. Any
good hoaxer can now go over my list of medical data items (or go
on the Web and do a few minutes of high-school level research)
and try to fill them in with believable sounding details because
I have now made an issue of it. These details would have
naturally _already_ been in a real "Doctor's" story without any
argument or hassle or harangue if he in fact was a real "Doctor"
who in fact really had the supposed alien encounter in the
Varginha hospital.

Even Stringfield's bogus "doctor" (or meat packer) had more
layman-type "medical" pathology info than your "Doctor" does as
you present him, though in a very non-credible way, but at least
Stringfield's "doctor" tried to go over most of the body parts
and organs, unlike your "Doctor." Oh, are you now going to try
to tell us that we would all be bored by such "minor"
details???? Most UFOlogists salivate at the chance to comb over
every minute detail of purported alien eye structure (think of
the Betty and Barney Hill case or Whitley Strieber's "Communion"
almond eyes), numbers of fingers and whether there's an opposing
thumb, exact heights to compare with "little green men" stories
and to try to distinguish the taller more human-appearing so-
 called "Nordics, skin color ("greys" or green "reptilians"),
etc. etc.

>Or maybe I should also say to him: "Please, Doctor, don't bother
>us with these minor and worthless details of an alien creature
>captured by military in the most comprehensive search ever
>performed by military police in Minas Gerais state, Brazil, and
>taken to your hospital in the middle of the night, where the
>whole branch of Maternity and part of the branch of Child Care
>where isolated for a few hours by men using uniforms and heavily
>armed, in such a situation that you were supposed to perform
>your duties as a Doctor to try to understand what the hell was
>that in that hospital bed, UNLESS you provide to my American
>collegues the whole report about it".

>And: "Doctor, we don't care if you took hundreds of sleepless
>nights to decide whether to reveal that or not, and don't even
>care about the many threats you received for not doing so, and
>any concerns you may have about your and your family' lives,
>UNLESS you satisfy our query with more details".

>What about that?

>We wouldn't be missing a thing...

Blood counts don't threaten your "Doctor" or put him in jeopardy
or identify him in any way. They are just numbers, scientific
data. Real doctors deal with blood counts and a host of other
data but I'm just singling that one item out so I don't have to
repeat my whole list of nearly 30.

Your 'Doctor' doesn't have to remember the exact numbers, just
approximately. A layperson would not know what they meant and
would have a hard time remembering numbers that are meaningless
to him. But a real MD would remember at least approximately
(unless they were normal for humans).

A credible sounding story might have _included_ details
something like this _after_ describing the creature (did it have
two eyes, mouth, nostrils, cranium, limbs, fingers, heart,
lungs, what height, weight, was it a classic "gray" or a
"Nordic" ET, etc. etc.?):

"I insisted that we draw blood or fluid from the creature in order
to be able to learn something so that I could figure out a way to
treat it. The soldiers reluctantly let me do that and allow the lab
to run tests. But the results came back and were astounding!
No blood cells at all, no count, only a strange plasma fluid with
a high pH 9.5 [etc. etc.]! [OR the story might have said:] The
results were very strange, with the lab finding 11 new types of
blood cells never seen before of shapes and sizes completely,
well, alien, with apparent nucleation of what looked something
like the leukocytes [white blood cells] but which were huge about
100 microns in size but shaped like pretzels, no hemoglobin
detected but the lab wanted to run tests for a possible copper-
based kind of hemo, etc. etc. I have spent years of sleepless
nights going over the unbelievable lab data in my mind trying to
think of a way it might be some strange earth animal but the data
did not seem possible with no hemoglobin at all, and I could not
understand how such large blood cells could be transported
throughout the creature's body so I started thinking of new blood
transport mechanisms, etc. etc. [OR whatever the story might
be, don't make me have to script out a believable hoax story for
you!]."


Brad







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 20

                 Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:46:45 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:51:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:57:34 -0700
>Subject: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

<snip>

>Could We *Really* Be At The Center of The Universe?

>Newly published data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS),
>led by Max Tegmark of the University of Pennsylvania, shows that
>our galaxy is centered on a great concentric distribution of
>galaxies.

>The foregoing quotation is based upon an ambitious astronomical
>survey effort involving more than 200 astronomers at 13
>institutions. So far, over 200,000 galaxies have been mapped.
>The accompanying figure is a two-dimensional, wedge-shaped slice
>of this cosmic map. It pinpoints approximately 33,500
>galaxies. ...Note the rough concentricity about the earth.

>Source: http://www.sdss.org/news/releases/galaxy_zoom.jpg

<snip>

Hi Terry and Listers

A question in regard to red shift limits.

If we travel to the outermost red shifted stars and travel with
them at their speed would more stars be revealed past them?

Or. Is there equipment which see's beyond the maximum red
shift?

Maybe only E.T. has the answers and it's believed, in some
quarters, that they too seek 'The Creator'. Could this 'Creator'
be outside the Universe detecting and smiling at us all?


Colin Stevenson
http://www.colsweb.com







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 20

                         UFO Sighted Over Lakeville?

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:18:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:56:54 -0400
Subject: UFO Sighted Over Lakeville?


Source: Twin Cities Pioneer Press - St Paul Minnesota

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/nation/9194124.htm?1c

07-20-04


UFO sighted over Lakeville?

No, but the publisher of Fate magazine will know if it ever
happens.

By Bob Shaw

Pioneer Press

Phyllis Galde has no gills. She can't dissolve into mist before
your eyes. Her eyes don't have the cat-like slits that TV aliens
have.

It's disappointing, because as the new owner of a magazine
specializing in UFOs, sea monsters, ghosts, Bigfoot, fish-people
and Gef the Talking Mongoose, you expect her to be a little
more... unusual.

"I just try to be a level-headed Norwegian and have some common
sense," said Galde, a friendly 58-year-old Lakeville grandmother
who looks apple-pie normal.

But normal is only skin deep. Her life revolves around the
bizarre, as reflected in the pages of her magazine, Fate, the
56-year-old journal of the paranormal.

After managing it for years, she bought the 20,000-circulation
monthly magazine in March. Now, from a house on a leafy cul-de-
sac, Galde runs a modest empire of weirdness from around the
world that lists actor Dan Aykroyd and artist R. Crumb as fans.

And she is taking weirdness in a whole new direction.

No more of that New Age hokum, she said. The previous publisher,
Llewellyn Ltd. of St. Paul, printed stories about crop circles,
channeling and crystals with supernatural powers.

"We just can't prove that stuff," Galde said. "We don't print
anything we can't prove. There is no scientific evidence for
that."

Evidence? Is there evidence of UFOs flying over Transylvania? Or
frog-men? Or giants?

These stories are based on what people sincerely believe they
have experienced, explained Galde.

"A lot of these things we don't say are true," Galde said. "We
say, 'Here are the reports. You decide.' "

How can she tell someone who actually heard Gef the Talking
Mongoose from someone who is merely insane?

"It's a gut-level feeling. It's like Hemingway's crap detector,"
Galde said. "You can tell if something is crazy."

That earnestness is what separates Galde from her competitors.
She believes this stuff, or at least believes it could be true.
She scorns other purveyors of paranormal, including tabloids
like the National Enquirer, Globe and Weekly World News.

"They have Hillary Clinton having an alien's baby," she said.
"Maybe some gullible people believe it."

Fate magazine is more discriminating. Galde is changing the
mission to revert to the vision of the magazine's founders, with
a retro tone to the stories.

Timeless stories include appearances by ghosts, UFOs or angels.

"Maybe one appeared in a bedroom and changed someone's life,"
she said. "Or a car breaks down in a snowstorm, someone appears
to help, and then leaves without making any tracks."

But they don't print just anything.

"We debunk things, like crop circles," she said. She said the
editor of Skeptic magazine, a debunker of all things paranormal,
recognizes Fate as a fellow challenger of specious claims.

Skeptic Editor Michael Shermer did say that Fate more carefully
researched stories than, say, the Globe. But he stopped short of
endorsement.

The problem with Fate, he said, is it tends to believe what
people tell it, without considering other explanations.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," Shermer
said.

Magazines like Fate thrive, he said, out of a curious need to
believe.

"It's the same impulse that drives religion," Shermer said. "It
could be an animistic spirit, a nature god, a 'May the Force be
with you' spirit, or a Christian God."

Galde agreed that the line between her magazine and religion was
blurry. Fate makes certain quasi-religious assumptions: spirits
live on after death, and some kind of spirit world produces
miracles that science can't explain.

"Organized religion is not giving people what they need," Galde
said. "Fate is kind of a liberal spirituality."

A PERSONAL CONNECTION

Galde is a believer in ghosts because she lives with them, she
says.

In 1993, she had been working for Llewellyn as the Fate editor
when her mother had a massive stroke and died. It happened in
Galde's basement.

Her mother's ghost appeared to her a short time later, she says,
in another room of the basement.

"I was still so grief-stricken, I wasn't able to talk to her,"
Galde said.

Shortly afterward, she heard The Voice. She was driving in her
Geo Prizm by the Target store on Cedar Avenue in Apple Valley
one afternoon and a voice distinctly said, "Spend more time with
your dad."

She quit her job the next day.

She cared for her father for several months before he died.

"It was the best thing I ever did," she said.

But that's not the last she heard from him, she says.

One time, Galde, who has four older brothers, was driving back
from her father's brother-in-law's funeral in Boone, Iowa. She
heard her father's voice in the back seat. It said, "It wouldn't
have hurt some of your brothers to have been here."

It didn't spook her. It comforted her.

"When I was losing my mom and dad, it was so nice to have their
visitations," Galde said. "The spirit survives after death.
People like to know that."

That renewed belief in the supernatural was one reason why she
went back to Llewellyn in 1999, as magazine editor, before
buying it outright.

AN EDITOR'S LIFE

Today her home bustles with an supernatural amount of energy.

The double garage is packed with books and supplies. In the
kitchen, part-timer Thomas Begich addresses envelopes. Galde
walks into the basement, past eight computer workstations for
her, her managing editor and housemate David Godwin, and six
part-timers.

Thousands of research books line the walls. Dragons leer from
paintings, and alien dolls peer from walls.

Some hazards you can't even see.

"You are standing in a vortex right now," said Galde to a
visitor, as if warning about quicksand. A vortex is a swirling
patch of psychic energy, and she wasn't sure if it was dangerous
to be standing in one or not.

In a corner room, 19-year-old part-timer Sarah Brand said she
loves the work.

"It's very laid-back here, and the creative juices in the air is
fun," she said.

It's nothing like her former job at Papa John's Pizza.

"It was hectic and boring. We had to wear ugly pants," she said.

Above all, she said, the stories are cool.

"My age group is really into it," Brand said.

Her personal favorite? Gef the Talking Mongoose, who reportedly
cursed and berated a family in England in the 1930s. But does
Brand believe a mongoose could talk?

"It's possible," Brand shrugged. Sometimes stories are so
bizarre, she said, they have to be true.

That applies as well to the story about Jesus' world travels.
The December issue of Fate had a photo of Jesus' grave in the
small village of Herai, Japan. Jesus reportedly died there at
the age of 106, and it was Jesus' brother, Isukiri, who died on
the cross.

How could that be? Instead of Christianity, should it be called
Isukirism? How could a man travel halfway around the world to a
place no one in the West even knew existed?

"He could have gone on horseback," Galde said. "I don't know.
But it makes people think."

ONLINE

For information on Fate magazine, including subscriptions, see
its Web site at www.fatemag.com.

RIPPED FROM THE PAGES =85

Sample headlines from recent editions of Fate magazine:

=95 "Has Atlantis been Found?"

=95 "Spirits of Flight 93" (the jet that crashed in Pennsylvania
on Sept. 11, 2001)

=95 "The Reality of Bigfoot: Was He Captured in 1839?

=95 "Kempenfelt Kelly" (a Loch Ness monster in a lake in Ontario)

=95 "The Most Haunted Capitol in America"

=95 "Basics of Detecting and 'Busting' Ghosts"

=95 "Readers Psychically Penetrate Infamous Area 51"

=95 "The Voodoo Queen of San Francisco"

=95 "A Night with Lizzie Borden"

=95 "The McKweon Poltergeist"

=95 "The Mermaids of Japan"










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 20

                 Re: NARCAP: Aviation Safety In US - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:40:11 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:59:19 -0400
Subject: Re: NARCAP: Aviation Safety In US - Ledger


>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:46:04 -0700
>Subject: Re: NARCAP: Aviation Safety In US

<snip>

>>Aviation Safety in America: Unidentified Aerial Phenomena and
>>Under-Reporting Bias

>>The issue of valid U.S. pilot reports of Unidentified Aerial
>>Phenomena, UAP and the seeming lack of attention given to these
>>reports by the aviation system is a complicated one. There is a
>>longstanding bias in place that severely inhibits the reporting
>>and investigation of UAP incidents. This bias stifles open
>>discussion of UAP amongst aircrews, management, safety
>>administrators, and the researchers who try to acquire
>>information on this important topic. [excerpt taken from report]

>>[much, much more at URL]

>Being a former pro-pilot and now grounded due to medical condition,
>I have said before that there is _nobody_ to turn to when you see
>or experience something extraordinary.Particularly Airline pilots,
>ATC controllers, etc.

>I do think this is a shame and until the stigma is removed, it
>won't quit. I do beleive there is a danger here. Wait till a
>spectacular crash with say a bBig UFO and a loaded 747 - over a
>city.


Hi GT,

There is a place pilots can go and that is NARCAP. NARCAP has a
staff of retired airline pilots and air traffic controllers to
draw on. The reporting form used by NARCAP for both pilots and
ATC are extremely detailed and explores areas that none of the
other witness report forms do. ABOVE ALL, IT IS CONFIDENTIAL. I
can't emphasize that enough.

NARCAP assigns a case number to the incident and the people
involved are never identified.

It is a sorry state of affairs when airlines and the governing
agencies can deny someone their right of free speech through the
use of intimidation that is so rampant in that industry.


Don Ledger








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 20

                 Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd  - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:57:03 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:02:53 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:44:43 EDT
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:52:10 -0200
>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

<snip>

Dear Brad:

The feeling of frustation for the lack on info about the
Varginha Case is not only yours. I feel exactly the same and so
does Ubirajara and I am sure that Doc Leir does it as well. Oh
ww wish that the "Doctor" would be more specif, more detailed
and I would like to have answers to most of our questions...

Unfortunatelly, things are not as easy as they may seem, or the
way we would like them to be. That "Doctor" took several years
of thoughts to decide if he would come up with any info at all.
And when he finally did so, he was still uncertain of what would
happen to him if he is discovered by the military.

One have to know that Varginha is a small town of only 110
thousand people. It is that kind of city where people know
everybody. That "Doctor" is a very popular person and his name
could be easily transpired if he was more detailled in his
account. By releasing only what he released it will already keep
some people in key positions of the Varginha Case to wonder
which of the 6 or 8 doctors at that hospital, that night, would
be "our Doctor". I have a feeling that he is cautious much
because of that.

Also, dear Brad, I believe that a piece of information is better
than no information at all. Sure, sure, that only a small piece
of info, such as that, doesn=B4t help much. We would rather have
much more to present. And we do. The whole Varginha Case is much
bigger that one can imagine. And we will have more info, very
soon.

In a month from now I will be promoting the First Varginha UFO
Congress, which has been very much publicized in that town. It
is causing serious agitation in the small city and many new
witnesses may come up to tell us their untold story. Stories
that they decided to keep to themselves because they may haven=B4t
had the chance or find someone they could speak to.

Besides, even not having all the pieces of this immense puzzle,
it has helped us to figure out what the picture is all about.
Varginha is a case much more documented that Roswell, for
instance. There are so far 80 first-hand witnesses speaking and
many more to come. And the most extraordinary info we gathered
about it came from the militar who took part in the operations,
a few of which already named.

I will have more new revelation in a week or two, as another
doctor who read the article I published here, that was published
in the Edition # 100 of the Brazilian UFO Magazine, already
contacted Ubirajara and is almost ready to start talking about
other stuff. In this case, it will be about the death of the
military policeman who hold with his bare hands the second ET
captured - only two weeks after it happened.

This is a long road and we have only walked a few steps.

A. J.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 20

                  Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:21:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:06:39 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - King


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:44:43 EDT
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:52:10 -0200
>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:57:56 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

<snip>

Brad,

My, you walked a long road to make a point. A good one.

A.J.,

When a sighting is said to have been made by a "trained
observer", one expects that the report will include trained
observations. Otherwise why mention credentials at all?

When a "trained observer" reports seeing "a big ball of fire",
or "some kind of critter like I never seen before", his status
as a "trained observer" becomes a little less pertinent.

The shame is that the trained observer had an extraordinary
experience, and did not effectively communicate this experience
in language appropriate to his ability. Just a critter story.


Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 20

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 29

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:52:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:11:07 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 29


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 29
July 21, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


VICTIM SAYS "WINGED DOGS"
WERE CHUPACABRAS

      "Juan R. Acuna Pereira, the Parral resident who was
assaulted by two strange beings qualified as 'winged dogs'
said yesterday (Sunday, July 11, 2004) that the creature
is identical to one shown in an image presented by
Corporacion GEO, depicting the mythical Chupacabras, and
which was done based on statements from others who have
suffered similar attacks."
      "'It had no fangs, and it was just like a dog, and
with short ears, just like a dog, and it stood on two legs
and had shiny eyes,' he said, confirming the computerized
image belonging to Corporacion GEO.  He insisted that the
(creature) is just like a dog and without the fangs shown
in a Mexican photo last week.  The only difference is that
the beleagured Parral native saw both animals as black in
color and flew around."
      "Despite his silence to the media, the victim's days
haven't been peaceful.  His wife says that Juan doesn't
sleep at night and, when he manages to do so, he has
nightmares and delirium all night.  Sometimes he wakes up
shrieking 'Attack!  Attack!'"
      "What they are hoping is that a (medical) specialist
will offer him some assistance, since, after the night of
horror, Juan doesn't dare go outside after dark, not even
to the outhouse.  He is with someone at all times, whether
a brother or his brother-in-law.  He will not remain home
alone."
      "Juan Acuna said that a friend of his, Jorge Vejar,
told him a dog was found dead in a field" outside Parral,
near Temuco in southern Chile, "without a drop of blood.
When they opened the door to see what happened, the other
dogs entered the house and hid under the chairs, visibly
frightened and unwilling to go outside."
      The Chilean newspaper "El Centro also had access to a
report by Susana Soto Yanez, the woman who offered first
aid to Acuna" after the attack.  "The victim's brother-in-
law's spouse revealed that the attack by the 'creatures'
occurred near 1 a.m.  Her relative (Acuna) was fleeing
from the bridge along the side of the canal, calling for
help, at a time at which they were both asleep."
      "Susana Soto did not understand--much less believe--
the story that some winged dogs had attacked her relative.
After changing his clothes and dressing his wounds,
because he had arrived practically naked at the house, she
went out to find a cell phone to summon an ambulance,
without positive results."
      "She says that she retraced her relative's route from
her house to the side of the canal towards the bridge and
noticed some strange noises, but she says she entrusted
herself to God, and nothing happened."
      "Unable to achieve her goal, she returned home and
asked her husband--he had had a few drinks, she admitted--
to go and find an ambulance.  The husband covered the same
route as his wife, when upon reaching the bridge, recalls
Marcelo Alberto Gajardo, he suffered a surprise attack on
his foot by one of the 'winged dogs.'"
      "He shouted in such a way that he managed to scare
off the 'critter.'  Gajardo described the incident: 'It
was a thing that attacked my foot and hurled me backwards.
Good thing I was wearing leather boots.  I looked and saw
it was flying.  I let out a shout, and it let go of me.
There were two of them.  They were small, but they
vanished.  I didn't see if they flew off or not--they just
vanished all of a sudden.  If I don't scream, I told
myself, I'll die right here...and I don't blame this
situation on any rooster!"  (See the Chilean newspaper El
Centro of Talca for July 12, 2004, "Victim of 'winged dog'
attack recognizes Chupacabras."  Muchas gracias a Scott
Corrales y Liliana Nunez para esto articulo de diario.)


PANIC IN PARRAL ENSUES AS
14 SHEEP ARE FOUND DEAD

      "Fourteen sheep died inexplicably last week, but that
wasn't enough for two families of shepherds from Parral to
make a formal report of the event, despite the fact that
the animals' bodies were found torn and bloodied but
without any traces of a predator that would have feasted
on them."
      "Everything changed in the last few hours, when word
spread of the attack on farmer Juan R. Acuna Pereira by
creatures unknown to doctors, and that he described as
'winged dogs.'"
      "The (sheep) deaths occurred at Las Cabras farm and
at a smallhold located near the commune's hospital.  The
affected parties say they gave no special importance to
the event, but in view of all that has been published,
they became afraid and decided to come forward."
      "In the first case, eight sheep were found
exsanguinated (drained of blood--J.T.) at the rear of the
Inapar Corporation.  The family running the premises--
facing the hospital--recorded the dead animals on their
camcorder to leave a document for the owner of the
property and the animals, in the hopes of avoiding any
misunderstandings later."
      "El Centro managed to obtain exclusive access to this
visual record, showing the condition in which the dead
sheep were found."
      "Ever since the Acuna case became known, members of
the family have chosen to leave their clothes hanging
outside after nightfall instead of going out and risking a
similar attack.  That is the level of their fear."
      "'They can't be dogs,' they said, requesting
anonymity, since 'dogs will eat the sheep, not bleed it.
This is the work of a strange animal.'"
      "The affected parties said they decided not to report
the incident to the Carabineros (Chilean national police--
J.T.) because over 40 dead hens had been found under
similar circumstances last year (2003), and they remember
that the police had told them not to go out at night,
since a strange dangerous species could be on the loose."
      "The second case corresponds to the death of six
sheep in the Paso Hondo rural area on the way to
Cauquenes, on the Las Cabras farm."
      "A person came to the door to confirm that (second)
report: 'Yes, six dead sheep were found in the pasture,
but it was never known what killed them.  I can't explain
it.  All I know is that they had very little blood,
because they were brought in for the dogs, and their
(fleece) hides were removed.'"
      "Claudio Bravo, mayor of Parral, said: 'I have no
greater opinion than what has appeared in the media.  I
think calm should reign, first and foremost.  These cases
are isolated and infrequent.  The fact is that we don't
know--until the investigation is well underway--if we are
facing a new species or a normal, everyday species.  I
call on the community to remain calm.'"
      "But he also joked: 'If the Chupacabra has done
anything positive by its presence, it's that we have fewer
people on the streets at night, which I think is good.  I
hope the Chupacabra won't attack decent folks, only the
delinquents who are up to no good in Parral.'"
      "The Parralinos' (residents of Parral--J.T.)
interpretations of the event range from skepticism to the
Bible."
      "Nora Retamal, a secretary to Senator Jaime Naranjo,
has a view of the phenomenon that she relates to the
Apocalypse.  'That book (Revelations--J.T.) tells us that
different things will come to pass.  We know that the
forces of evil present themselves in different guises.
God wants us to be ready to witness some odd things.'"
      "Fidel Sanchez, who keeps his hand on the local
society's pulse, thinks that most Parralinos believe that
the attack on the farm was the work of Chupacabras, adding
that others believe it was just a dog.  'All of these
things give me goose pimples.  The fact that there could
be a mysterious creature wandering the night that could
attack you...all I can do is go to bed early.'"  (See the
Chilean newspaper El Centro of Talca for July 7, 2004,
"Mystery of the 'winged dogs' increases."  Muchas gracias
a Scott Corrales y Liliana Nunez para esto articulo de
diario.)


UFOs SEEN REPEATEDLY
OVER TOWN IN ARGENTINA

      "The UFO phenomenon in the town of Gobernador Ugarte
(population 300)," located about 150 kilometers (90 miles)
west of Buenos Aires, the capital of Argentina, "is
ongoing.  Strange lights and maneuvers were reported this
past weekend."
      "One worker told the strange story of how his truck
lights turned on and off by themselves as he stopped at a
local ranch.  Some residents say this is quite normal in
the area, while others express their fears."
      The Argentinian newspaper "La Manana spoke yesterday
(Monday, July 12, 2004) with Hector Labaronne, who has
been filming UFOs for three years with his family.  The La
Esperanza ranch is where the greatest number of (UFO)
sightings and ground prints have been reported in recent
times.  The family possesses over five hours of video
recordings of the lights and objects that appear in the
night skies."
      "The significance of these events has led to the
screening of a 90-minute video of the Ugarte sightings,"
which will take place "on August 16, 2004 at the 8 p.m. in
the Sala Pablo Picasso in Buenos Aires."
      "La Manana ; 'How long have you been recording
UFOs?'"
      "Hector: 'More than three years now.  The video to be
shown in Buenos Aires is just part of the five hours we've
recorded.  Almost all of the images are similar, except
that some are on different days and nights.'"
      "La Manana: 'How long since the last sighting?'
      "Hector: 'We saw the lights last night (Sunday, July
11, 2004), also on Saturday (July 10, 2004), and there are
some things that occur that are beyond the norm,  For
example, last Friday (July 9, 2004), one of the rangers
who lives in a shed had a strange experience.  At around 1
a.m., he saw a light, went outside, and realized that his
truck lights were on.  He went to turn them off but
noticed that the pickup truck's lights weren't on.
(Meaning the dashboard light switch was set on OFF--J.T.)
The lights themselves went out in the meantime.  He
thought it might be a loose wire and went to bed again.'"
      "'About an hour later, he woke up to find his truck
lights on again.  This happened four times successively.
He didn't go out after that because he was scared.  The
next day, he reflected about this event, and some people
told him that there were 'flying saucers' in the skies
over the area, or that strange lights are often seen.'"
      "'He says that when he went to bed, he felt as though
someone was running at the edge of the shack.  We still
don't know what it is, but we're sure there's something to
it.'"
      "'The lights fly right over Ugarte--many people of
the town are seeing them.  Since it is a normal
occurrence, no one pays them much attention.  A large
flying red light 100 meters (330 feet) over Ugarte is a
normal thing.'"
      "La Manana: 'What time of year does this most often
occur?'"
      "Hector: 'The cooler it gets, the lower they fly.
They can move some 30 to 40 centimeters (12 to 16 inches)
over the ground.  They don't leave traces.  What we see
are lights and sometimes a solid object, like a suspended
deep bowl.  We've had them close, but when we get closer,
they move away--this happens always.  They don't come over
to where we are.  They always avoid us.'"
      "Research and inquiries have revealed (UFO) sightings
in previous decades.  In the 1950s, personnel from the
Estancia San Jose del Socorro (ranch) reported the
surprising appearance of several circular marks (crop
circles--J.T.) near a eucalyptus forest.  In the summer of
1971, a 12-year-old boy witnessed the low-altitude flight
of a strange aerial artifact.  In the mid-1990s, a local
resident claimed having been taken aboard a spacecraft,
providing details of his experience and shiny marks on his
arms."
      "Gobernador Ugarte is located on Route 51 between the
cities of Chivilcoy and 25 de Mayo" in Buenos Aires
province in eastern Argentina.  (See the Argentinian
newspaper La Manana of Buenos Aires for July 13, 2004,
"UFOs seen near 25 de Mayo."  Muchas gracias a Scott
Corrales y Gloria Coluchi para esto articulo de diario.)


BRILLIANT WHITE UFO SEEN
NEAR SAO PAULO, BRAZIL

      On Thursday, July 15, 2004, farm workers in the Serra
da Cantareira, a mountainous region north of Sao Paulo,
Brazil, the largest city in South America, "spotted a UFO
in the sky at approximately 7:08 p.m.  The object, which
they described as 'a great globe of brilliant white light,
rotating on its own axis,' hovered briefly over the
mountainside before flying away."
      "One witness said, 'The object appeared to be self-
illuminated.'"
      Brazilian ufologists called the event "the most
exciting UFO incident in Sao Paulo state in years."
      Later the same evening, at 11 p.m., "a flight of
black helicopters flew over Taquaritinga, S.P.," located
about 300 kilometers (180 miles) northwest of the city of
Sao Paulo.  "There were seven helicopters, arrayed in a
zigzag formation.  They flew rapidly at treetop height and
without (navigational) lights."  (Muito obrigado a Atilio
Coelho, Roberto Santram e Brunilda Barros para esas
informacoes brasilienses.)


UFO HOVERS OVER BAKU,
CAPITAL OF AZERBAIJAN

      "An unidentified flying object resembling a large
star hung over the Azeri capital (city) of Baku," on the
western shore of the Caspian Sea, "early Monday," July 12,
2004.
      "The object appeared at quarter past six" in the
morning "and it stayed there until sunrise.  Witnesses
said the UFO was so bright that they could hardly observe
it with their bare eyes."
      "The UFO could be clearly seen in Baku's outlying
suburbs of Akhmadli and Bakikhanov."  (See the newspaper
Baku Today for July 12, 2004.  Many thanks to Jim Hickman,
executive director of Skywatch International, for this
report.  Don't forget to visit Jim's Web site at
http://www.skywatch-international.org/ .)


MULTIPLE-LIGHT UFOs SEEN
OVER VANCOUVER, B.C.

      On Saturday, July 17, 2004, at 5:30 p.m., eyewitness
R.T. was outdoors at her home in Vancouver, the largest
city in Canada's western province of British Columbia,
when she sighted something strange in the sky.
      "I am not sure what I saw," she reported, "But there
appeared to be several clusters of what looked like stars.
Some were just hovering, and some were moving slowly.
Several times they appeared to be almost intersecting each
other.  I saw a couple of 'star-like' objects that were
reddish in color.  They looked like they were the same
distance (away) stars could be (too high to be an aircraft
or a bird--R.T.)  I left my outside area and went back
outside 15 minutes later, and, by that time, they were all
gone."
      "They were so high up they looked like rings of
stars."  (Email Form Report)



CASSINI TAKES NEW
PHOTOS OF IAPETUS

      "The international Cassini spacecraft has taken new
images of Saturn's two-faced moon Iapetus, possibly
offering clues as to why the moon has a dark hemisphere
and a bright one."
      "Researchers at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena, California hope Cassini's observations of the
mysterious moon help determine where the dark material
comes from."
      "The spacecraft took pictures of Iapetus (pronounced
eye-APP-eh-tuss) at a distance of 1.8 million miles on
(Saturday) July 3 (2004), a few days after Cassini entered
Saturn's orbit."
      "Iapetus is one of Saturn's 31 known moons."
      "NASA also expected good pictures of Titan," Saturn's
largest moon.  "Startlingly sharp pictures taken in June
(2004) of another Saturnian moon, Phoebe, had raised
expectations that Titan would come in loud and clear."
      "'Instead, it looks more like an Impressionist
painting,' chief mission scientist Dennis Matson says."
      "The photographs of Titan have been fuzzy.  Although
Cassini passed much closer to Phoebe (1,241 miles or 1,985
kilometers) scientists had hoped that infrared images
would bring Titan into focus."
      "Other surprises:"
      "Light-colored plateaus on Titan, once thought to be
composed of water ice or even liquid methane, appear to be
scrambled mixtures of ice and hydrocarbon tar.  The
scientists frankly say that they haven't figured out what
that means, other than some sort of unanticipated geologic
activity is doing the scrambling."
      "Dark-colored plateaus, thought to be coated with
carbon tar, appear to be just ice."
      "Where plateaus meet, scientists see fuzzy boundaries
rather than the sharp lines found on ict moons elsewhere,
such as Jupiter's Ganymede."
      "Some form of erosion, perhaps wind-driven, is
blurring those boundaries, Matson suggests.  If that's the
case, Titan's hoped-for primordial chemistry may remain
intact, even if its appearance is not what scientists
expected."
      "A dearth of circular craters in the views so far of
Titan's surface suggests that meteorite impacts quickly
are resurfaced by wind or some sort of icy volcanism.
Such impacts are presumably common occurrences amid
Saturn's cluttered rings."
      "The visible lines in (Titan's) surface suggest
clashing ridges, giving rise to the possibility of 'Titan-
quakes.'  If Titan's light and dark regions are butting
into one another, causing ice-cracking quakes, the surface
may even be more volatile than anticipated."
      "Methane clouds spotted by Cassini near Titan's south
pole, floating under the haze at a 9-mile (15-kilometer)
altitude, also raise new questions.  Astronomers had
spotted signs of the clouds before.  But some scientists
had expected to see more of them hovering in the
atmosphere, possibly dropping methane rain to the
surface."  (See USA Today for July 19, 2004, "Cassini
probes Saturn moon's dark side," page 6D, and USA Today
for July 14, 2004, "Saturn offers more mystery, less
certainty," pages 1A and 2A.)


DESPITE BALKY WHEEL,
SPIRIT CONTINUES ITS
SURVEY OF MARS

      "NASA's Mars rover Spirit has begun driving in
reverse to overcome a balky front wheel, but engineers
expect it to keep covering Martian ground."
      "The new driving technique was detailed as scientists
at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory revealed that the six-
wheeled Spirit had finally discovered a rock outcrop, a
formation offering the potential for layered rocks that
could give geologists a view far into Mars' geologic
past."
      "Spirit's twin, Opportunity, fortuitously landed next
to such an outcrop in January (2004).  Opportunity quickly
found a wealth of evidence that the site in the Meridiani
Planum region was once saturated with water, and
conditions there could have been suitable for life."
      "On the other side of the planet, Spirit had to make
a long trek across the plains of a vast crater before
literally rolling over the outcrop as the rover was
preparing to begin climbing into a set of hills."
      "The long drive apparently took a toll on Spirit's
right front wheel, which began to draw more and more
electrical current, a sign of resistance in the
mechanism."
      "Efforts to use heating and rest to get lubrication
to move back into the mechanism achieved only small
improvement, so engineers decided to put the rover in
reverse."
      "'Right now it is still capable of performing all
tasks that we ask it to do,' said engineer Joe Melko, who
noted that the rover had gone more than six times beyond
its design life."
      "Moving backward allows Spirit to drag the right
front wheel while driving itself with its five other
wheels.  Slightly turning some wheels allows the rover to
maintain a straight course."
      "Showing a picture of the outcrop beneath Spirit's
wheels, mission science team member Matt Golombek said the
good news is that Spirit doesn't have to go much farther."
      "Outcrop is the currency that geologists use,' he
said, 'It's contiguous bodies of rock that really contain
the secrets that we want to unveil.  And for the entire
mission, 190 sols (Martian days), we've been seeking it,
and we finally found it."
      Spirit and Opportunity are now facing a new
challenge.  In a few weeks, it will be winter on Mars.
      "NASA's Mars rovers, Opportunity and Spirit, are
ratcheting back activities as the Martian winter
approaches, a mission engineer says."
      "'If you told me last year we would be worrying about
how we would keep the rovers going now, I would not have
believed you,' says rover team member Jim Erickson of the
Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California."
      "The $835 million rovers completed their planned 90-
day mission in April (2004).  As the Martian winter
deepens until mid-September, the solar power received by
the rovers continues to drop.  Mission controllers have
instituted 'recharge' days to recoup rover power and a
'deep sleep' mode at night when temperatures will be near
minus 63 degrees Fahrenheit."
      "Mars will pass behind the sun in mid-September,
cutting off (radio) contact with the rovers during several
of the coldest days experienced by the mobile geology
labs, Erickson says."  (See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune
for July 18, 2004, "Spirit to roam Mars in reverse," page
15A; and USA Today for July 15, 2004, "NASA feels chill of
Martian winter," page 4D.)


NEW ROBOT SPACECRAFT
WILL HEAD FOR MERCURY

      "NASA said it will send a spacecraft to Mercury for
the first time in 30 years."
      "The probe Messenger will be launched (Monday) August
2 (2004) on a $426 million mission to orbit the planet,"
the closest to the sun, "while it maps the surface and
looks for frozen water in shady polar craters."
      The temperature on Mercury "is 840 degrees
(Fahrenheit) during the day and several hundred degrees
below zero at night."
      "Messenger will loop around Earth, Venus and Mercury,
getting a boost from the gravity of the planets to guide
it into an orbit of Mercury in 2011 for a one-year
mission, the project's scientists said.  The roundabout,
4.9 billion mile (8 billion kilometer) route is designed
to save on the coast and weight of the fuel, they said."
(See USA Today for July 16, 2004, "NASA takes aim at
Mercury," page 5A.)

Report from the Editor:  Our 2004 sci-fi movie summer is
swinging into high gear.  So far we've had Van Helsing,
The Day After Tomorrow, The Chronicles of Riddick and
Spider-Man 2.  Here's another one to add to your must-see
list... I, Robot, starring Will Smith and Bridget
Moynahan.  Its vision of Chicago in the year 2035 will
take your breath away.  There's a good murder mystery and
tons of action.  Personally, I think this film is Smith's
best work since 2002's Men in Black II.  Don't miss this
one!

From the UFO Files...

1938: MORE STRANGE SECRETS
           OF THE ANTARCTIC REICH

      A magazine article published last month in Portugal
is shedding new light on the strange cruise of the German
ship Schwabenland and the origins of the Antarctic Reich.
      "While the German scientists improved the Vril, the
Hanebu and the RFZ (crude flying discs alleged to have
been invented by Hitler's Third Reich--J.T.), other
strange events happened quickly, beginning in 1938."
      "One of the new problems that emerged in the early
Twentieth Century, right after World War I, was the
transportation of mail between Europe and the Americas.
In the 1920s, two companies contested for the newly-opened
mail routes across the Atlantic Ocean.  These were Pan
American Airways (founded by Juan D. Trippe--J.T.) and
Luft-Hansa, the German airline.  Trips by air over the
vast ocean created numerous problems with refueling,
logistics and maintenance.  Both companies decided to use
hydroplanes, and the Azores (owned by Portugal--J.T.)
became the logical replenishment point."
      "The Germans invented an ingenious way to bypass the
distance problem.  They used catapult ships to launch the
mail-carrying planes, and they remained in the waters of
the Azores to service the planes on their return trip.
Using a long metal screen dragged by the ships, they
reduced the height of the waves and made it safe for the
hydroplanes to land."
      "German catapult ships that became famous included
the Bremen, the Westfalen and the Schwabenland.  This last
one, built in 1925, could launch hydroplanes weighing as
much as 14 tons.  The Schwabenland was a modern ship,
well-equipped and with a modern communications system,
plus an excellent on-board meteorological station.  The
vessel often operated out of Horta and Faial in the
Azores."
      "On May 24, 1938, the Schwabenland was visited by
James Roosevelt, the brother of President Franklin D.
Roosevelt.  That same evening, the Schwabenland  received
a coded message from the Reichsfuhrer-SS, Heinrich
Himmler, ordering the captain to leave the Azores and
proceed at once to Germany."
      And thereby hangs the tale.  James "Rosey" Roosevelt
was the older half-brother of the president.  A quick
review of FDR's childhood is in order.  Franklin was born
in January 1882.  His father, James Roosevelt, was 53
years old when he was born and already had an older son,
James Jr., by his first wife.  James Jr., nicknamed Rosey,
was born in 1855 and was 27 when his baby brother, the
future president, made his natal debut in Hyde Park, N.Y.
      Although he was the older brother of one president
(FDR) and the cousin of another (Theodore Roosevelt,
president from 1901 to 1909--J.T.), not too much is known
about Rosey.  He was a Wall Street investment banker and
the college roommate and lifelong pal of one of the USA's
wealthiest billionaires, John Jacob Astor IV.  After Astor
died, it was Rosey who managed his friend's estate, with
its numerous trust funds, annuities, bloc shares and
whatnot.  In short, Rosey was a heavy hitter on Wall
Street, and he was in and out of the White House as often
as Monica Lewinsky.
      What Rosey was doing aboard Hitler's "Antarctic Ark"
is a mystery.
      But there's more.  Rosey was the favorite child of
Franklin's maternal grandfather, Warren Delano, a stalwart
Republican from Fairhaven, Massachusetts. Of his New York
City son-in-law, old man Delano once said, "James is the
one who taught me that a Democrat could be a gentleman."
      In his youth, Warren Delano had been a sailor aboard
a Massachusetts whaling ship that often plied Antarctic
waters.  Later he got involved in the China trade.
Another contemporary from the same area of southeastern
Massachusetts was a whaler-turned-fishmonger named Andrew
J. Borden, who was chopped up with an axe by his daughter
Lizzie in August 1892.
      The most notorious book about whalers in Antarctica
is, of course, The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of
Nantucket, by Edgar Allen Poe (1809-1849). Poe wrote about
the whalers encountering strange ruins and hinted at an
alien presence on the icebound southern continent, linked
to the haunting phrase Tekeli-li.
      According to S.T. Joshi, the biographer of H.P.
Lovecraft (who used Pym as the basis of his own novel, At
the Mountains of Madness--J.T.) "the first book
publication of The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of
Nantucket by Edgar Allan Poe is dated 1838 but was
copyrighted in June 1837.  Two installments had appeared
in the January and February 1837 issues of the Southern
Literary Messenger, at that time edited by Poe."
      So where did Poe get the idea for mysterious ruins in
Antarctica?  Probably from talking to returning American
whalers in the Baltimore waterfront taverns that he loved
to haunt.  Clearly some very strange shit was going on in
Antarctica during the late 1830s, and it was known to
Delano and Borden and the other whalers of the New
Bedford-Fairhaven-Nantucket area.
      A century after Poe penned his Antarctic tale, the
Schwabenland returned to Hamburg.  Following a swift and
effective refitting, the ship departed for Antarctica.
      "The official German Antarctic Expedition of 1938-
1939 assumed a long-term strategic importance.  Led by
Captain Alfred Ritscher, a veteran Arctic explorer, this
scientific expedition carried out extensive geographical,
meteorological and zoological research in Queen Maud Land,
which had formed part of the Norwegian territorial claim
on Antarctica since 1930.  Two large flying boats of the
Dornier-Wal type flew daily from the expedition ship
Schwabenland, taking over 11,000 photographs, occasionally
landing, covering in all some 600,000 square kilometers
and photomapping 350,000 square kilometers.  The discovery
of high Alpine peaks (Muelig-Hoffman Mountains) and a
group of warm-water oases (Schirrmacher Lakes) amid the
frozen wastes was of particular interest as it suggested
that there were hospitable microclimates (ecosystems)
within the icebound continent."
      The explorers used harpoons with swastika flags,
dropped from the air, to mark off their new territory of
Neuschwabenland (German for New Swabia --J.T.).  They also
drew up a detailed map of the region.  However, "today
this map cannot be exhibited in Germany.  Anyone found in
possession of this map is prosecuted under the statues
governing denial of the Holocaust."
(Editor's Comment:  Linking Capt. Ritscher's map to
Holocaust denial is a stretch, even for a Zionist.)
      "One of the people who led the expedition was Helmuth
Wohlthat," a former German fighter pilot of World War I
who had served in Hermann Goering's Jagdstaffel and
remained friends with Goering after the war.  Wohlthat was
an economist by trade and represented the Third Reich at
international financial conferences with British and
American bankers.  A strange choice to play a leading role
in an Antarctic expedition, to be sure.  But the
Portuguese article asserts that "Wohlthat was also a
member of the Vril Society and the Thule (Society)," the
mystical forerunners of the Nazi party.
      Also aboard the Schwabenland was a sizable contingent
from Himmler's SS-Ahnenerbe, a kind of "Ministry of the
Occult."
      "Wohlthat prepared an extensive report of the
expedition which he radioed to Goering on May 9, 1939."
      "In October of 1939, one month after the beginning of
World War II, the Schwabenland was turned over to the
Luftwaffe.  On December 17, 1939, the ship again left
Hamburg, headed for Antarctica, packed with scientists and
equipment.  This time they were going to build a permanent
base in Antarctica."
      Running the Royal Navy's blockade, "the Schwabenland
returned to Hamburg on April 11, 1940.  The ship and her
crew were received in Germany as heroes."
      But not all of the Germans had returned.  A handful
had remained behind at the base now called "Point 211."
      "In August 1942, the ship was sent to Tromso in
Norway, which was then under German occupation.  She
travelled to Tromso in a convoy of 24 ships."
      "During the next year and a half, nobody knew where
the Schwabenland was.  It was not possible to find any
record of its whereabouts.  The ship's registration was
transferred to Norway, with the approval of the (Vidkun)
Quisling government.  At the same time, Hitler ceded to
Norway a portion of the Antarctic territory claimed by
Germany."
      Late in 1942, the Schwabenland came under the direct
control of the SS. Himmler had the "home port" name on her
stern changed from Oslo to Stockholm, and the ship began
traveling under a false flag, that of neutral Sweden.
(Editor's Note: In 1965, actor Marlon Brando, who died
last week at age 80, made a strange little movie called
Morituri.  In the film, Brando plays an expatriate German
who is blackmailed into spying for the Allies.  He winds
up on board a German U-boat tender disguised as a Swedish
tramp steamer.  Was this film a fictionalized version of
the wartime South Atlantic voyages of the Schwabenland?)
      "On May 19, 1943, the Allies began to suspect that
something strange was happening in Antarctica, mainly
because of the large number of U-boats passing through the
South Atlantic."  Himmler was using large supply
submarines--the famous milch cow U-boats of Admiral
Doenitz--to ferry Organisation Todt construction supplies
and equipment to Point 211.  Also heading south were
thousands of Waffen-SS soldiers and the Antarktisches
Seidlungensfrauen (German for Antarctic Settlement Women
or ASF).
      At this time, "President Roosevelt sent a coded
message to President Getulio Vargas of Brazil, complaining
that Portugal's (fascist) Prime Minister Dr. Antonio
Salazar refused to permit the construction of an Allied
naval base in the Azores.  Roosevelt told Vargas that
Allied intelligence had learned of an existing Nazi
submarine base in the islands."
      "Unknown to Dr. Salazar, General Eisenhower had
prepared plans for a pre-emptive occupation of the Canary
Islands (owned by Spain--J.T.) and Cabo Verde (owned by
Portugal--J.T.).  From these new bases, Allied 'sub-
killers' would destroy the U-boat 'migration' to
Antarctica."
      "An OSS (Office of Strategic Services, World War II
forerunner of the CIA--J.T.) document dated May 23, 1944
affirmed that 'Salazar continues to play for time' before
drafting a formal response for the Allies."
      After the war, Wilhelm Landig, a German expatriate,
wrote three novels about Point 211, the Nazi underground
Antarctic base.  These were Wolfzeit um Thule (1980),
Goetzen gegen Thule (1984) and Rebellen fur Thule (1991).
      However, Henry Stevens, author of Hitler's Flying
Saucers, pointed out that "his books each bore the sub-
title 'Ein Roman voller Wirklichkeiten.' (Translated: A
novel filled with realities--J.T.), as this novel
treatment was an easy avenue in avoiding post-war legal
entanglements."
      Stevens added, "Mr. Landig recently died, and it is
now known that he was a Third Reich insider and knew of
what he wrote.  As mentioned earlier, it is now known that
Landig was a member of the Waffen-SS and at one time was
responsible for security for the development of German
saucers."
      "The (Nazi) Antarctic base was first attacked by the
forces of many nations, led by the United States, in a
1946 military operation codenamed Operation High Jump.
This operation involved a fleet of ships, including an
aircraft carrier, submarines and support craft.  It also
involved aircraft and four thousand armed troops under the
command of Admiral Richard E. Byrd."
(Editor's Note:  Admiral Byrd commanded the American
expedition to Antarctica from 1928 to 1930.)
      "Immediately four aircraft were mysteriously lost,
and the whole operation, scheduled for six months'
duration, was canceled after less than six weeks."
      According to Stevens, the USA detonated three nuclear
bombs in Antarctica during the International Geophysical
Year 1957-1958.  "Landig claims the type of rockets used
in the 'test' to attack Point 211 were prototypes of the
American Polaris missile, a solid-fuel rocket which was
used later operationally.  Detonation of these atomic
weapons over the (Nazi) base generated electromagnetic
shock waves, which, it was hoped, would destroy the
(alien) apparatus in the base used for defensive purposes.
Landig claims this tactic failed.  The electromagnetic
pulse (EMP) attack was insufficient to destroy the
improved apparatus.  Both High Jump and the 1957-58 attack
turned out not only to be a fiasco but to be superfluous."
      Stevens claims the Nazis abandoned their Antarctic
Reich in the 1960s.  Others claim that Neuschwabenland,
"the nation under the ice," continued to grow and
flourish, eventually reaching a population of 3 million by
the year 2000.  The capital, Neuberlin, is said to have an
"Alien Quarter" inhabited by a sizable number of
extraterrestrial visitors to Earth.
      In his book, Alien Races and Fantastic Civilizations,
Serge Hutin claimed, "In 1961, an observer in a good
position to filter through all 'top secret' information
coming to light...told us about the blackout imposed on a
discovery made by one of the American stations in
Antarctica: the remains of a very old stone pavement found
beneath an enormous accumulation of ice."
      The unnamed NATO source told Hutin that they weren't
sure if it was a prehistoric superhighway dating from
before the last Pleistocene glaciation back in 12,000
B.C., a runway for alien spacecraft, or what the Hawaiians
call an a'a (fluid) basaltic lava flow.
      Hutin added, "In this case, the official order of
silence cannot be explained by anything other than a
fierce defense of scientific orthodoxy.  Proving the
existence of a vanished civilization (which readers of
H.P. Lovecraft know as Kadath--J.T.) that once flourished
on the Antarctic continent would have no effect on the
power blocs headed by the United States, the Soviet Union
and China." (Hutin wrote his book in 1970--J.T.)
      One by one, the secrets of the Antarctic Reich are
coming out.  But there's still a lot of information kept
under wraps.  (See the books Alien Races and Fantastic
Civilizations by Serge Hutin, Berkley Medallion Books, New
York, N.Y., 1975, pages 38 and 39; Hitler's Flying Saucers
by Henry Stevens, Adventures Unlimited Press, Kempton,
Illinois, 2003, pages 243 to 253; Timeless Earth by Peter
Kolosimo, Bantam Books, New York, N.Y., 1975, pages 13,
48, 52 and 252; Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism
and the Politics of Identity by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke,
New York University Press, 2002, pages 151 to 172;
Hitler's Priestess by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, New York
University Press, 1998, pages 210 to 213; and The
Annotated H.P. Lovecraft by S.T. Joshi, Dell Publishing,
1997, pages 186 to 193.  See also OVNIs em Antarctica,
Lisboa, 2004.  Muito obrigado a Antonio Pinheiro Soares
por esas informacoes portugueses.)

      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us in seven days
for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth--and occasionally Mars, Saturn and Mercury--
brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."
See you next time.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post the news stories in UFO
Roundup on the Web sites or in news groups, provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 20

                 Re: Origin Of The Term 'Grays'? - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:51:59 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:13:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Origin Of The Term 'Grays'? - Friedman


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:33:18 +0100
>Subject: Re: Origin Of The Term 'Grays'?

>>From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:13:55 -0700
>>Subject: Origin Of The Term 'Grays'?

>But I have heard claims that 'EBE' is actually much more recent,
>being invented by Paul Bennewitz c.1980. Can anyone shed any
>light on this? Have any of Bennewitz's writings been found to
>contain 'EBE'? If so, can we have source and date, please?

>If and when such evidence is discovered, and it pre-dates
>December 1984, it will put the final nail in the coffin of the
>MJ-12 affair (much to Stanton Friedman's dismay) since it will
>establish, finally, that the Eisenhower paper is a 1980s
>forgery.


What peculiar reasoning. One would think that the words
extraterrestrial and Biological and Entity came from some far
out unused language! For those who want a serious review of the
MJ-12 documents I would recommend my new paper on the subject as
extremely well done by webmaster Peter Blinn who includede
excellent copies of a number of the Tim Cooper emulations along
with the originals. The website is:

http://www.stanfriedman.com

and also has my long review of Kevin Randle's book "Case MJ-
12".Let us look at research not proclamations.


Stan Friedman







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 20

                 Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:10:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:15:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:46:45 +0100
>Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:57:34 -0700
>>Subject: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

> <snip>

>>Could We *Really* Be At The Center of The Universe?

>>Newly published data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS),
>>led by Max Tegmark of the University of Pennsylvania, shows that
>>our galaxy is centered on a great concentric distribution of
>>galaxies.

>>The foregoing quotation is based upon an ambitious astronomical
>>survey effort involving more than 200 astronomers at 13
>>institutions. So far, over 200,000 galaxies have been mapped.
>>The accompanying figure is a two-dimensional, wedge-shaped slice
>>of this cosmic map. It pinpoints approximately 33,500
>>galaxies. ...Note the rough concentricity about the earth.

>>Source: http://www.sdss.org/news/releases/galaxy_zoom.jpg

><snip>

>A question in regard to red shift limits.

>If we travel to the outermost red shifted stars and travel with
>them at their speed would more stars be revealed past them?

>Or. Is there equipment which see's beyond the maximum red shift?

>Maybe only E.T. has the answers and it's believed, in some
>quarters, that they too seek 'The Creator'. Could this 'Creator'
>be outside the Universe detecting and smiling at us all?

>Colin Stevenson
>http://www.colsweb.com


Hello Colin:

If I have this right, conventional wisdom is that if we could
somehow reach those far red-shifted stars, and travel (stay)
with them, then our star would be red shifted behind us.   New
(to us) stars/galaxies would become visible, those outside our
Earthbound observable universe, presumably highly red shifted
again.   Thus, each point in space, near and far, has its own
"observable universe"

I see no need to bring theology into the mix.


Best

- Larry








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 20

                           Shostak Friedman Debate

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:52:53 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:17:36 -0400
Subject: Shostak Friedman Debate


Just a quick reminder that Dr. Seth Shostak and I are scheduled
to discuss UFOs and SETI on Coast to Coast Wednesday, July 21
from 11PM-2AM, Pacific Time.

This is the replacement for the June 22 program which was
postponed because Seth came down with Pneumonia.

Some of my views are expressed in my article "UFOs: Challenge to
SETI Specialists" on my website:

http://www.stanfriedman.com


Stan








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                 Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:53:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:44:58 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Sparks


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:57:03 -0300
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:44:43 EDT
>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:52:10 -0200
>>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

<snip>

>Dear Brad:

>The feeling of frustation for the lack on info about the
>Varginha Case is not only yours.
<snip>

>That "Doctor" is a very popular person and his name
>could be easily transpired if he was more detailled in his
>account.

Dear A.J.,

A _blood count_ cannot possibly expose his identity! It's just a
_number_ it's just data, medical data, scientific data! It has
no name attached to it. Science wants true data not false data
either.

Withholding data is what hoaxers do. The "Doctor" according to
your account actually _refuses_ to discuss the alleged
creature's respiration! Why? Why should we hear all about
"telepathy" but nothing about respiration from an alleged
medical doctor? This is what a non-medical layperson hoaxer
would do because he knows he cannot successfully make up
believable medical data or talk like a real MD. At best maybe a
technician in a hospital can pick up a little medical jargon
here or there.

>Also, dear Brad, I believe that a piece of information is better
>than no information at all.

What if that piece of info is false infor or a lie? Do we want
more so-called "info" from an Adamski or a Bethurum or a
Urandir? I don't think so.

Speaking of what one believes, I do not believe your "Doctor"
because he does not sound like a 'Doctor'. I believe the
Varginha case as much as I believe in Barra da Tijuca. It is not
another Roswell because at least with Roswell one can establish
that something of some sort did happen. With Varginha no one can
really be sure what exactly actually happened.

Moreover, if some sort of UFO incident did occur which the USAF
tipped off Brazil to, the USAF has a secret standard operating
procedure to cover up UFO incidents by deliberately spreading or
helping to circulate wild tales about 'aliens' that make people
think all of it is a bunch of bull (as was done at Rendlesham in
1981 and with other incidents). The Brazilian military may be
imitating the USAF.


Regards,

Brad Sparks








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                 Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:54:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:46:52 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Sparks


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:21:42 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:44:43 EDT
>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:52:10 -0200
>>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

<snip>

>A.J.,

>When a sighting is said to have been made by a "trained
>observer", one expects that the report will include trained
>observations. Otherwise why mention credentials at all?

Because alleged "credentials" lend support to a hoax, especially
when the hoaxer is too lazy to look up basic medical facts to
make the fraud more believable. Keffel and Martins did a better
job of hoaxing Barra da Tijuca.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                       US Panel Backs Space Budget Cut

From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:27:22 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:49:44 -0400
Subject: US Panel Backs Space Budget Cut


Source: BBC OnLine

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/-/1/hi/world/americas/3912095.stm

07-20-04

US Panel Backs Space Budget Cut

A US House of Representatives panel has voted to cut the money
given to fund space, environment and science programmes for next
year.

Some was allocated instead to boost war veterans' health care by
$2bn.

Correspondents say the cut is a stark example of budget
pressures faced by a Republican-run Congress. Democrats said
spending limits were too tight.

The move comes on the 35th anniversary of the day that Neil
Armstrong took man's first steps on the Moon.

The astronaut and his Apollo 11 crew members, Buzz Aldrin and
Michael Collins, gathered in Washington to celebrate their 1969
landing.

'Brutally fair'

The BBC's Barnie Choudhury in Washington says the allocation of
funds shows Congress' determination to provide cash at a time of
war.

"The choices have been brutally fair," said James Walsh, chief
author of the measures.

But some Democrats on the panel complained about the spending
limits Republicans have voted to impose on Congress.

"This year I think it's going to be very clear it's becoming
excruciating, if not unacceptable," said Alan Mollohan, a top
Democrat on the subcommittee.

The measures will have to be supported by a full House and the
Senate before US President George W Bush could approve it.

Just $372m was provided out of the $910m Mr Bush wanted for
initial preparations for manned missions to the Moon and Mars.

Nasa's human space flight programme has been grounded since the
shuttle Columbia disintegrated in February 2003, killing seven
astronauts.

In January, President Bush said astronauts will be back on the
Moon by 2020, and will establish a lunar base to prepare for
human exploration of Mars.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                     Re: Shostak Friedman Debate - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:28:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:52:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Shostak Friedman Debate - Groff


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:52:53 -0300
>Subject: Shostak Friedman Debate

>Just a quick reminder that Dr. Seth Shostak and I are scheduled
>to discuss UFOs and SETI on Coast to Coast Wednesday, July 21
>from 11PM-2AM, Pacific Time.

>This is the replacement for the June 22 program which was
>postponed because Seth came down with Pneumonia.

>Some of my views are expressed in my article "UFOs: Challenge to
>SETI Specialists" on my website:

>http://www.stanfriedman.com

>Stan

Thanks Stan,

This is great. I'll get to catch the whole thing since I'm on
CDT. Give Seth the old "what for" on his anti-UFO sentiment.


Terry









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

              Alien Mannequin Abducted From Roswell Attraction

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:01:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:01:28 -0400
Subject: Alien Mannequin Abducted From Roswell Attraction




Source: The Roswell Daily Record - New Mexico

http://www.roswell-record.com/archives/072004/news08.html

07-20-04

Alien Mannequin Abducted From Downtown Attraction

Stefan Cornibert
Record Staff Writer

If you believe in alien abductions, then you know it is usually
the aliens who do the abducting, but Saturday in Roswell, a
visitor from space was kidnapped by humans, outside the Alien
Encounter, a local haunted house.

Fred, a 50-pound mannequin designed to look like a gray space
alien, was stolen around 4:30 p.m. from the corner of Main
Street and Eighth Street near Alien Encounter=92s front entrance.
Fred was reclining in a wheelchair on the sidewalk=97where he sat
every day for months as part of the local tourist attraction=97
when, according to owner David Baumann, two men parked a white
and brown pick-up truck by the curb, rolled him and his
wheelchair into the vehicle and sped away toward Virginia
Avenue.

Baumann is now offering "a major reward" for Fred=92s safe return.

"We have an alien who has been abducted, and we are very
concerned about his safety and his health," Baumann said,
visibly distressed by his friend=92s disappearance. "He was part
of the UFO crash display, and so we kept him in the wheelchair.
That wheelchair was important because otherwise he can=92t get
around without it."

Fred and his wheelchair are valued at $3,500. Police are
investigating the theft but have yet to report any leads on the
case. Baumann, who was inside Alien Encounter when Fred was
stolen, said he did not see the men who nabbed his space-
creature friend, but he did hear their voices.

"I heard them talking but, of course, the windows in the front
of the building are blacked out," he said. "I stuck my head out
the door to see what was going on, and I saw they were driving
off with him."

Earlier in the day, Baumann said he spotted two "men in black"
watching the Alien Encounter=92s front entrance from the
McDonald=92s across the street. He believes they may have
something to do with Fred=92s abduction.

"We don=92t know if there=92s a connection there but, there could
be," he said.

Baumann is asking staff at the nearby Ford dealership and at the
McDonald=92s to search through their surveillance tapes for clues
to who could have taken Fred.

"All they had to do was just wheel him into the back of the
truck," he said. "I have a feeling they were just two teenaged
kids.

"The police are actively searching for Fred, going to all the
known places space aliens go," he added. "Somebody knows
something about this kidnapping."

Baumann has asked anyone with information on Fred=92s whereabouts
to call 623-4836, 624-6770 or 624-6513.



[UFO UpDates thanks http://www.anomalist.com & Richard Hendricks
 for the lead]








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                       Man Remembers 1949 Ufo Sighting

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:11:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:11:50 -0400
Subject: Man Remembers 1949 Ufo Sighting




Source: The Reporter-Times - Martinsville, Indiana

http://www.reporter-times.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=2829&format=html

07-18-04


Man Remembers 1949 Ufo Sighting

By Bette Nunn
bnunn.nul

Morgan County

There is one clear, blue, summer day in Clifford "Spike" Nail's
life that he will never forget. That was the day when he was
walking across a field on Claude Oliphant's farm at the top of
Little Hurricane Hill and saw "something that was not from this
world."

It was 1949 and he was 11 years old. He was with his sister
Janet and Oliphant, then about 50 years old. They had been
mowing in Oliphant's field when Nail looked up and saw a silvery
object hovering above the treetops. It was broad daylight, about
4 or 5 p.m., Nail said. The unidentified flying object made no
noise and was not spinning. There were no flashing lights.

"It was just suspended horizontally in mid-air," Nail said.
"Even if it had lights, we wouldn't have seen them on such a
bright day. We watched for 10 minutes and then it disappeared.

"It was something I had never seen before. You wouldn't even
think it existed. If it had been on the ground, it probably
would have been the length of a football field. It was more the
shape of a cylinder, not a saucer.

"Whatever it was, I don't know," he continued. "But it wasn't of
this world. At this time, we (the United States) were just
coming out with jets, so I know it wasn't ours."

Nail said he has read a number of reports in which people
described the same type of ship out west and in Europe at about
the same time.

Nail said he was not afraid of it. "It was about a mile away and
around 600 feet in the air," he said. Oliphant, now deceased,
said he had never seen anything like it, Nail said.

Nail said he ran home to tell his mother. He was all excited
when he entered the house, but his mother stopped him and said,
"Clifford, you don't need to tell me. Junior (Clifford's
brother) and Jim Leonard already stopped and told me what they
saw."

"They had seen it and said the same thing I did," Nail recalled.
He said his brother died about two years ago, and Leonard died
some time ago.

Janet (Nail) Pittman said last week: "I do remember the
incident, but I don't know what I saw. There was something in
the sky. It stayed there awhile, then it just took off. It was a
long, silver object. We were just kids, but I still wonder today
what we saw."

Believes History Wrong

"Back then, people were leery of even talking about such
things," Nail said. After that day in 1949, he didn't hear any
more about the UFO sighting. He was hoping something would come
out before he died that would verify what he saw, "but it's not
going to happen," he said.

He's been fascinated with UFOs since then and has read lots of
books about them. But he doesn't like fiction too much and he
hasn't gone to any of the movies about UFOs, he said.

"Little green men just don't get it with me," he said.


[UFO UpDates thanks http://www.anomalist.com & Richard Hendricks
 for the lead]








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                    Professor Exposes The Aliens Among Us

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:20:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:20:01 -0400
Subject: Professor Exposes The Aliens Among Us




Source: The Cincinati Post - Ohio

http://www.cincypost.com/2004/07/15/wecker071504.html

07-15-04


Professor Exposes The Aliens Among Us

In the world of academia, Northern Kentucky University
philosophy professor Dr. Robert Trundle realizes his beliefs are
not exactly widely embraced. "Shunned" is the word he sometimes
uses.

The title of his forthcoming book is, in part at least, in
response to what he calls "the cowardice and vanity of a
sizeable percentage of American professors." Scheduled for
release early next year, it's called "Is ET Here? No
Politically, but Yes Scientifically and Theologically" (EcceNova
Editions, Victoria, British Columbia).

Dr. Trundle, 60, occupies an almost monastic office on the
second floor of NKU's Landrum Hall. It's a room about 10 by 10,
and every available square foot is piled high with texts of one
sort or another. I was careful not to touch off an avalanche
when I sat among the stacks the other day and asked him to boil
his book down to its basics.

So what does he mean by that title? Do beings from places other
than this planet walk among us?

"Yes, I believe contact was made 50 years ago - and I believe
beings from other planets are here now, mainly to study us," Dr.
Trundle said.

"Does ET exist from a political perspective? No, because the
government is afraid of the culture shock and public panic. For
the government to acknowledge the existence of extraterrestrials
here would be to admit it can't protect us from them.

"Scientifically, I argue that thousands of well-regarded witness
accounts cannot simply be dismissed. I'm talking about pilots
who have come forward even though it's meant they've had to
undergo psychiatric exams as a direct result."

At the very least, he said, we can't use current science as the
standard for excluding the possibility of a more advanced
science:

"For example, science says it's impossible to travel at the
speed of light. If it were possible, it would take four years of
traveling at the speed of light to get to the nearest star
system, Alpha Centauri.

"Given our current technology, it would probably take us 50,000
years to get there, plus or minus. Based on that, the scientific
establishment somewhat blithely dismisses the existence of
extraterrestrials.

"It's like saying if we can't do it, they can't do it either."

Dr. Trundle's book is not an easy read, but it's an intriguing
sampler of UFO lore, sightings and documents, including this
Freedom of Information Act version of a March 22, 1950, FBI memo
stating in part:

"An investigator for the Air Force stated that three so-called
flying saucers had been recovered in New Mexico -- circular in
shape with raised centers, approximately 50 feet in diameter.
Each -- occupied by three bodies of human shape but only 3 feet
tall."

It's a subject Dr. Trundle has been chasing for years. His
grandfather, president of the now-defunct Trundle Engineering
Co. in Cleveland, was fascinated with extraterrestrials and,
when he died in 1954, left Robert a small collection of books
about UFOs. His first article to the effect that ETs are here,
entitled "Extraterrestrial Intelligence: Challenge to Theology,
Physics and Metaphysics," was published in 1994. His second
book, "Illustrated News of the Unbelievable," was co-authored
with George Filer, a retired Air Force intelligence officer.

Dr. Trundle paints a virtual "Men in Black" picture of the ET
scene in which several species are visiting the earth, most in a
human form. But why?

"There are benign scenarios in which they might be seen as
anthropologists coming here out of curiosity," he said.

"Then there is a more threatening scenario, which is that
they're studying to see if the earth is habitable. An even more
worrisome possibility is that they have a hybrid program of
sexually mating with humans to strengthen their species."

No doubt about it. Dr. Trundle would have an easier go of it if
he stuck to Socrates.

"But I'm trying to apply the truth in the way Socrates called
for it to be applied to everyday life," he said.

He's convinced he's right. All he's lacking is cold, hard proof.

"If I had that, it would be the most astonishing event since the
resurrection of Christ."


Contact David Wecker at (513) 352-2791 or via e-mail at
sambets.nul

[UFO UpDates thanks http://www.anomalist.com & Richard Hendricks
 for the lead]








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                 Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:20:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:56:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:10:54 -0700
>Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

>>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:46:45 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

>>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:57:34 -0700
>>>Subject: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

>><snip>

>>>Could We *Really* Be At The Center of The Universe?

>>>Newly published data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS),
>>>led by Max Tegmark of the University of Pennsylvania, shows that
>>>our galaxy is centered on a great concentric distribution of
>>>galaxies.

>>>The foregoing quotation is based upon an ambitious astronomical
>>>survey effort involving more than 200 astronomers at 13
>>>institutions. So far, over 200,000 galaxies have been mapped.
>>>The accompanying figure is a two-dimensional, wedge-shaped slice
>>>of this cosmic map. It pinpoints approximately 33,500
>>>galaxies. ...Note the rough concentricity about the earth.

>>>Source: http://www.sdss.org/news/releases/galaxy_zoom.jpg

>><snip>

>>A question in regard to red shift limits.

>>If we travel to the outermost red shifted stars and travel with
>>them at their speed would more stars be revealed past them?

>>Or. Is there equipment which see's beyond the maximum red shift?

>>Maybe only E.T. has the answers and it's believed, in some
>>quarters, that they too seek 'The Creator'. Could this 'Creator'
>>be outside the Universe detecting and smiling at us all?

>If I have this right, conventional wisdom is that if we could
>somehow reach those far red-shifted stars, and travel (stay)
>with them, then our star would be red shifted behind us.  New
>(to us) stars/galaxies would become visible, those outside our
>Earthbound observable universe, presumably highly red shifted
>again.  Thus, each point in space, near and far, has its own
>"observable universe"

>I see no need to bring theology into the mix.

Hi Larry and Listers

So. If we travel faster and faster to see the unfolding stars,
not normally seen, then eventually we would become infinite
energy or mass ( E=MC2 ) relative to where we came from ( Earth
). Therefore that would be the 'Constant state' theory? Rather
than 'big bang' theory?

As I know little of Astronomy, and maybe others on the list are
similar, then would there be a point outside our detected
Universe where our theories are not applicable? Or where
everything is mass or energy ?

Relatively, at present, we would be located at the center of the
Universe only based upon our methods of observation. So we would
be at the center of our Universe no matter where we are in it
but if we traveled to one edge of it then we would realize that
new stars appear thus then would know we were not at the center
before.

I and many others seem to be confused and don't we need some
form of new instrument to see the other stars not normally seen
at present? Presume the stars would be traveling relatively
faster than light seen from our position therefore we would not
be able to detect them (background radiation?) ?

There is also the matter of time. Stars that we see at the
limits of our capabilities were at those points millions of
years ago and if they were traveling at near light speed at that
time then where are they now and do they still exist?

We might know we are at the center of our detectable Universe
all the time but the Universe MUST be much larger surely?

To define anything by what we see or detect cannot be correct
based upon the above and that is where theology gets into the
mix.


Kind regards

Col







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                         Two More 3-Color UFO Maps -

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:49:41 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:58:03 -0400
Subject: Two More 3-Color UFO Maps -


Hello all:

The next two 3-color maps are for the Central USA with some
overlap in Canada and Mexico. Again, I layered the maps so that:

Blue dots = Way-back-when thru December, 1959
Violet dots = 20 years, 1960 - 1979 and
Green dots = 1980 to the present.

This one is for the Northern Plains:

http://www.larryhatch.net/NPLAINS.html

Colors shows distinct differences in sightings distribution for
these eras.

The next one is for the South-Central states:

http://www.larryhatch.net/SCENTRAL.html

Links on those two pages will lead to other work in progress.


Thanks

- Larry








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                  Re: Alien Mannequin Abducted From Roswell

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:52:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:02:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Mannequin Abducted From Roswell


>From: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :>
>Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:01 AM
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Alien Mannequin Abducted From Roswell Attraction


>Source: The Roswell Daily Record - New Mexico

>http://www.roswell-record.com/archives/072004/news08.html

>07-20-04

>Alien Mannequin Abducted From Downtown Attraction

>Stefan Cornibert
>Record Staff Writer

>If you believe in alien abductions, then you know it is usually
>the aliens who do the abducting, but Saturday in Roswell, a
>visitor from space was kidnapped by humans, outside the Alien
>Encounter, a local haunted house.

>Fred, a 50-pound mannequin designed to look like a gray space
>alien, was stolen around 4:30 p.m. from the corner of Main
>Street and Eighth Street near Alien Encounter's front entrance.
>Fred was reclining in a wheelchair on the sidewalk-where he sat
>every day for months as part of the local tourist attraction-
>when, according to owner David Baumann, two men parked a white
>and brown pick-up truck by the curb, rolled him and his
>wheelchair into the vehicle and sped away toward Virginia
>Avenue.

>Baumann has asked anyone with information on Fred's whereabouts
>to call 623-4836, 624-6770 or 624-6513.

<snip>


Quite obviously a case of mistaken identity by 'the men in
black' who were 'in disguise' at the time.

Col






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                   Re: Shostak Friedman Debate - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:11:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:25:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Shostak Friedman Debate - Lehmberg


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:28:32 -0500
>Subject: Re: Shostak Friedman Debate

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:52:53 -0300
>>Subject: Shostak Friedman Debate

>>Just a quick reminder that Dr. Seth Shostak and I are scheduled
>>to discuss UFOs and SETI on Coast to Coast Wednesday, July 21
>>from 11PM-2AM, Pacific Time.

>>This is the replacement for the June 22 program which was
>>postponed because Seth came down with Pneumonia.

>>Some of my views are expressed in my article "UFOs: Challenge to
>>SETI Specialists" on my website:

>>http://www.stanfriedman.com

>Thanks Stan,

>This is great. I'll get to catch the whole thing since I'm on
>CDT. Give Seth the old "what for" on his anti-UFO sentiment.


Mr. Friedman;

Seth Shostak, by (all!) account, is a good man, even tempered,
intelligent, and reasonable. He's serious, has his own vision,
and would want to appear credible while he very effectively
keeps his _own_ counsel. He's respectable, and _pays_ respect,
is cordial and engaging and calm. He's qualified, educated, and
bright. I wish he was a neighbor. That said, in tonight's
contest, "...crush the enemy, kill the enemy... see the enemy
driven before you, and hear the lamentations of his women..."
Mr. Friedman.

Such lack of vision, dearth of intellectual courage, and neo-
insentience as Dr. Shostak professes, and _for_ which he is a
legitimate poster boy, needs to be aggressively pointed out at
every opportunity. I'll be listening, Sir, and looking forward
to writing about it... however it shakes down.

"Reach" a little bit beyond "grasp", Doctor. Cooperate to
understand, Sir, not, so much, compete to survive. Good luck and
real justice to all participants, of course. I hope both men
find they "step large and laugh easy" during this seminal
ufological event. Pun weirdly intended. Wonderful things _could_
come of it.


alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                 Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:18:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:02:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:20:43 +0100
>Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:10:54 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

>>>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:46:45 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

>>>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:57:34 -0700
>>>>Subject: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

>>><snip>

>>>>Could We *Really* Be At The Center of The Universe?

>>>>Newly published data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS),
>>>>led by Max Tegmark of the University of Pennsylvania, shows that
>>>>our galaxy is centered on a great concentric distribution of
>>>>galaxies.

>>>>The foregoing quotation is based upon an ambitious astronomical
>>>>survey effort involving more than 200 astronomers at 13
>>>>institutions. So far, over 200,000 galaxies have been mapped.
>>>>The accompanying figure is a two-dimensional, wedge-shaped slice
>>>>of this cosmic map. It pinpoints approximately 33,500
>>>>galaxies. ...Note the rough concentricity about the earth.

>>>>Source: http://www.sdss.org/news/releases/galaxy_zoom.jpg

>>><snip>

>>>A question in regard to red shift limits.

>>>If we travel to the outermost red shifted stars and travel
>>>with them at their speed would more stars be revealed past them?

>>>Or. Is there equipment which see's beyond the maximum red
>>>shift?

>>>Maybe only E.T. has the answers and it's believed, in some
>>>quarters, that they too seek 'The Creator'. Could this 'Creator'
>>>be outside the Universe detecting and smiling at us all?

>>If I have this right, conventional wisdom is that if we could
>>>somehow reach those far red-shifted stars, and travel (stay)
>>>with them, then our star would be red shifted behind us. New (to
>>>us) stars/galaxies would become visible, those outside our
>>>Earthbound observable universe, presumably highly red shifted
>>>again. Thus, each point in space, near and far, has its own
>>>"observable universe"

>>I see no need to bring theology into the mix.

>So. If we travel faster and faster to see the unfolding stars,
>not normally seen, then eventually we would become infinite
>energy or mass ( E=MC2 ) relative to where we came from (Earth).
>Therefore that would be the 'Constant state' theory? Rather
>than 'big bang' theory?


Uh, no. I posited a hypothetical trip to some point near the
edge of our (earthbound) visible universe. From there, the
traveler (having taken longevity pills) could see galaxies
beyond _our_ observable universe, but not beyond his. There
are no infinities of mass, energy etc. in this thought
experiment.

>As I know little of Astronomy, and maybe others on the list are
>similar, then would there be a point outside our detected
>Universe where our theories are not applicable? Or where
>everything is mass or energy ?

Highly speculative, but my gut reaction is no. I suspect that
parts of the universe beyond our detection are much the same as
the parts we can observe.

>Relatively, at present, we would be located at the center of
>the Universe only based upon our methods of observation.

I used to say that Menlo Park, CA was the center of the
observable universe. Now I favor Redwood City, a few miles to
the North.

We are all at the center of our own particular observable
universe. No one spot can claim to be THE center of THE universe
that I know of. This is really old stuff, about a century old by
now.,

>So we would be at the center of our Universe no matter where we
>are in it but if we traveled to one edge of it then we would
>realize that new stars appear thus then would know we were not
>at the center before.

Uh, no. One would have moved from one pseudo-center to another
pseudo-center, that's all.

>I and many others seem to be confused and don't we need some
>form of new instrument to see the other stars not normally seen
>at present? Presume the stars would be traveling relatively
>faster than light seen from our position therefore we would not
>be able to detect them (background radiation?) ?

In theory, NO instrumentation, new or old, can see beyond the
limits imposed by the speed of light 'c', i.e. the "edge of the
(theoretically) observable universe. Astronomers have indeed
detected galaxies at a high percentage of that limit. Their
light is so far red-shifted that its a wonder they were detected
at all.

>There is also the matter of time. Stars that we see at the
>limits of our capabilities were at those points millions of
>years ago and if they were traveling at near light speed at that
>time then where are they now and do they still exist?

Good question. Some may have collapsed into black holes,
others blown up, burned out, collapsed into brown dwarfs etc.
Some may still be blazing away.

>We might know we are at the center of our detectable Universe
>all the time but the Universe MUST be much larger surely?

Maybe it would help to think of it this way: Each of us is
at the center of a circle 100 feet in diameter, defined as
the locus of points 100 feet away from each of us.
A tautology? Probably. So is the "center of the observable
universe."

What's outside of it? More universe, much like our own.

>To define anything by what we see or detect cannot be correct
>based upon the above and that is where theology gets into the
>mix.

Theology gets into the mix only if you want it to bad enough.
At that point, you leave science behind. I prefer not to
do that.


best

- LH








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                 17 Minute UFO Video From Comodoro Rivadavia

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:37:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:08:45 -0400
Subject: 17 Minute UFO Video From Comodoro Rivadavia


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
July 21, 2004


Source: Diario Hoy
Date: July 20, 2004

17 Minute UFO Video From Comodoro Rivadavia Argentina

A resident of Comodoro Rivadavia claimed having filmed an
unidentified flying object (UFO) over Cerro Chenque, in the
vicinity of this city of Chubut, last Friday morning. Marcelo
Soto claimed that the object apparenly rested on that mountain
and he was able to record it from his home in the Jorge Newberry
neighborhood.

The tape shows a phenomenon that is very similar to the one seen
in recent days over Gobernador Ugarte (Pcia. de Buenos Aires),
said Soto to a local FM radio station.

The recorded image is "unedited, and from the center of the
luminous sphere, which changes colors, it can be seen how other
lights emerge from within."

"I didn't know what it was, but it attracted my attenion. I
wanted to have the best possible image and that's why I left the
camera alone, pointing to where the UFO was, and theyn I
connected [the camera] to the TV set. That's when I got scared,"
he added.

"The object approached and receded. There was some kind of light
in the center of the sphere that changed color and something
that really drew my attention: other lights come out of the
center of the circle toward the side.".

In this regard, the director of Comodoro Rivadavia's airport,
Roberto Romero, explained that Air Force radars "have not
recorded any sightings of any luminous objects, nor have
aircraft reported anything like it" in recent days, adding: "If
now they say there's a video on the presence of a UFO or shining
object, well, then that can't be refuted."



Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                 Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:41:35 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:11:30 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:21:42 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:44:43 EDT
>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

<snip>

>The shame is that the trained observer had an extraordinary
>experience, and did not effectively communicate this experience
>in language appropriate to his ability. Just a critter story.


Yes, this is a problem, I agree. But as I told Brad, it is
better to have some info than no info at all. By publishing
small info, like the ones the "Doctor" gave us, we intend to
reach other people who can also come forward with new pieces of
this puzzle. Then, piece by piece, we can figure out the
picture.


A. J.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                 Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:40:18 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:22:47 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:54:08 EDT
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:21:42 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

><snip>

>>When a sighting is said to have been made by a "trained
>>observer", one expects that the report will include trained
>>observations. Otherwise why mention credentials at all?

>Because alleged "credentials" lend support to a hoax, especially
>when the hoaxer is too lazy to look up basic medical facts to
>make the fraud more believable. Keffel and Martins did a better
>job of hoaxing Barra da Tijuca.

Brad, I am sorry to say that, but you are jumping to seriously
irresponsible conclusions here. I urge you to get more info on
Varginha Case as soon as possible. I can send you Ubirajara's
book, which is very detailed, but I'm afraid you don't read
Portuguese and we don't have it in English - yet. Anyway, I
should ask you to keep comments such as these above for a time
when you have more info on the case.

There is something strange about some of my colleagues research
in USA. I can tell you that I have studied most of your great
cases, such as Roswell. I have learned English to do so and I
have managed to spend years of reading and discussing these
cases _before_ I ever said a word about them. Now, why don't
some of my American colleagues do the same? They should learn
Portuguese (or any other language that it is necessary), study
the cases happened in Brazil more thoroughfully and read more
about them _before_ speaking of something about them?


Sincerely,

A. J.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                 The San Diego Comic Convention This Weekend

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:01:26 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:37:41 -0400
Subject: The San Diego Comic Convention This Weekend


It's the biggest comics/scifi/fantasy convention of the year.

For many of you Ufologists you've got lots of fans there both
amongst the public and professionals. If you have the weekend
off, visit and shmooze around. It's a great way to meet many
directors, producers, finance folks whom your publicists or
agents can chat with you on upcoming projects etc.

I'll have 3 of my own properties being represented on the floor
and have done production art for new films due out so I may see
some of you there.

You guys would be suprised whom your fans are and what they do
in entertainment and merchandising. I speak to them on a regular
basis and that 'UFO' debate will spring forward and we'll all
have a good time too.


Best,

Greg









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:23:42 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:47:52 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Bourdais


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:44:43 EDT
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd . Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:52:10 -0200
>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:57:56 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

><snip>

>>>This "report" is akin to that by the "astronomer" from Kwazu-Natal
>>>who stated Venus was mistaken for a UFO, when in fact Venus was
>>>below the horizon at the time of the sighting... among other
>>>unscientific ruminations.

>>>So many experts, so little expertise.

>>Dear Brad and Kyle:

>>You are certainly right and I cannot forgive myself for not
>>realising that sooner. Yes, we cannot pay any attention to this
>>thing and take it seriously. We should just drop at once these
>>"new revelations" made by that Doctor in the garbage can and
>>forget it at all.

>>Maybe, indeed, we should just come to this poor man and say at
>>once: "I am sorry Doctor, but I will have to dump your info in
>>the garbage can, UNLESS you provide an extention to your report
>>to the lenght and to the number of details that my American
>>colleagues find appropriate".

>What "info"? You presented no medical info whatsoever!!!! Put
>the zero info into the place where zero info belongs, the
>garbage can like you yourself said . but don't put any
>scientific medical data in the garbage if you actually have any,
>just tell us! Your so-called "Doctor" does not SOUND like a
>medical "Doctor" from what you presented, don't you get it?


To Brad, and the List,

Dr Roger Leir wrote in some detail about his visit and
investigation in Varginha, in April 2003, in a six page article
published in the British UFO magazine, dated April 2003.

He explained how he was greatly helped by Ubirajara Rodrigues.

He recounted a certain amount of medical information given to
him and to Ubirajara (with his son Rudolfo as translator) by a
"medical team" of the "Hospital Regional".

Roger Leir told me that it was agreed to talk of the "medical
team" - because there were three medical personnel at the
meeting - in order to preserve the anonymity of the witnesses,
although it is implicit that one of the three was a main
witness.

It had also been agreed that their testimony would not be
revealed in Brazil, because of fear of possible sanction.

This article has not been put in doubt by anybody, as far as I
know. Here is the main part of the article of Roger Leir:

"This is what I was told:

"1. On 20 january 1996, a human-like entity was brought into the
hospital escorted by a military contingent

2. The entity was suffering from a compound fracture of the leg
(I did not ascertain which leg, right or left)

3. They described the creature as being less than 5 ft tall. Its
skin was brown in colour and shiny or oily. They described its
skin as reticulated with a discernable outline of large cells,
much like reptilian skin, but smooth. They were unable to feel
any raised areas that would indicate a definite scale. There was
no noticabloe odour.

4. The head was large in comparison to the rest of the body,
with three bony ridges running parallel to each other and had no
hair. Two of the ridges ran front to back on the edge of the
top of the skull, while the other ran front to back centrally.

5. Its eyes were large, red in colour and turned slightly
upward at the outer edges. They described the eyes as
"demanding" when looking directly at them. They also appeared
shiny and moist.

6. The hands had four fingers, which were long and flexible.
Each finger was able to articulate with other fingers. There was
no discernable wrist.

7. The feet were unusual, with three short central toes on the
front of the foot, while on one side was an additional
prehensile-like appendage which pointed downward in a resting
position. At the end of this apendage was a claw, approximately
three quarters to one inch in length. The description of the
feet just happened to match the impression found in soft earth
where Katia, Valquiria and Liliane had seen a creature kneeling
or crouching by the wall.

8. The bone was described as being of similar colour to our own,
but had numerous perforations and a tensile strength that made
it much stronger than any human bone. They told me it appeared
almost like human bone that is osteoporic, which is abnormal in
a human being. I was also told that the bone healed within 24
hours following the reduction of the fracture. The superficial
and skin tissues also healed in that time-frame.

9. The blood was described as being similar in colour and
consistency to our own, but the microscope revealed a much
larger number of platelet cells. The blood would clot almost
instantaneously upon release from vessels.

10. The creature was described as having a series of bulging
blood vessels that stood out from the skin in its shoulders,
rather like our varicose veins, only not extending to the neck."


There is more in the article by Dr leir, but I stop here because
it tells of a sort of telepathic transmission at the end of the
operation, which seems to be the controversial part in the eyes
our Brazilian colleagues.

Anyway, Dr Leir gives more medical details in the book he is
writing now. I know that because I am translating it into French
as it goes along.

Let's just explain that this was a first, urgent, medical aid
which was given at the 'Hospital Regional' in the city of
Varginha. After a short stay there, the creature was considered
to be in good condition and was transported by the military to
the larger 'Humanitus Hospital'. All medical records were taken
away, and the medical team was forbidden to talk. So they have
done so at their own risk and must be commended for that.


Gildas Bourdais








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:43:20 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:50:10 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Bourdais


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul >
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:40:18 -0300
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:54:08 EDT
>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:21:42 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>><snip>

>>>When a sighting is said to have been made by a "trained
>>>observer", one expects that the report will include trained
>>>observations. Otherwise why mention credentials at all?

>>Because alleged "credentials" lend support to a hoax, especially
>>when the hoaxer is too lazy to look up basic medical facts to
>>make the fraud more believable. Keffel and Martins did a better
>>job of hoaxing Barra da Tijuca.

>Brad, I am sorry to say that, but you are jumping to seriously
>irresponsible conclusions here. I urge you to get more info on
>Varginha Case as soon as possible. I can send you Ubirajara's
>book, which is very detailed, but I'm afraid you don't read
>Portuguese and we don't have it in English - yet. Anyway, I
>should ask you to keep comments such as these above for a time
>when you have more info on the case.


A.J.,

Read again your two first messages, quoting Ubirajara, and you
will see that you depreciated the "Doctor", suggesting that he
is not a reliable witness.

I must say that it came as a shock to me!


Gildas








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                          Secrecy News -- 07/21/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:25:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:52:43 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/21/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 68
July 21, 2004


**      CLASSIFIED INTEL BUDGET DOCUMENTS PLACED ON COURT RECORD
**      CONSTITUTIONALITY OF PERMANENT BUDGET SECRECY DISPUTED
**      CLASSIFICATION COSTS SKYROCKET
**      BILL ON CLASSIFICATION REVIEW BOARD INTRODUCED IN HOUSE
**      DECLASSIFIED HISTORY OF THE SOVIET LUNAR PROGRAM
**      PENTAGON "CONSOLIDATES" ABU GHRAIB DOCUMENT REQUESTS
**      MORE CRS ODDS AND ENDS


CLASSIFIED INTEL BUDGET DOCUMENTS PLACED ON COURT RECORD

Classified U.S. intelligence budget documents were placed on the
open record in a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit in DC
district court yesterday.

The documents, marked "Secret" and "Security Information," are
purely historical in nature and present intelligence
appropriations for the Central Intelligence Agency from Fiscal
Years 1953, 1954 and 1955.

Although this information is half a century old, the CIA still
considers it classified.

By introducing the classified budget documents into the record,
the plaintiff in the FOIA lawsuit (that's me) seeks to
demonstrate to the Court that CIA's classification policy on the
matter is erroneous and that historical intelligence budget
information must be released.

The documents were located in the archives of former
Congressional officials by Prof. David Barrett of Villanova
University.  He obtained copies of the documents for his own
scholarly purposes and also kindly made them available to the
Federation of American Scientists, which has been pursuing
declassification of historical intelligence budget data under
the Freedom of Information Act.

The classified intelligence budget documents are appended to
Prof. Barrett's declaration filed yesterday in the pending FOIA
lawsuit Aftergood v. CIA:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/barrett.pdf

The declaration was filed in support of a Motion for Summary
Judgment against the Central Intelligence Agency seeking
disclosure of historical intelligence budget data from 1947
through 1970.  That Motion is available here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/motion072004.pdf

A response from CIA is due on August 25.


CONSTITUTIONALITY OF PERMANENT BUDGET SECRECY DISPUTED

Budget information is one of only two categories of government
information whose periodic disclosure is guaranteed and required
by the U.S. Constitution (the other is the Journal of the U.S.
Congress).  And yet there is a history of confidential and
secret spending that dates back to the earliest days of the
Republic.

Constitutional scholar Louis Fisher provided a capsule history
of budget secrecy and its "anomalous" rise in post-World War II
intelligence spending in another declaration that was filed
yesterday in DC District Court in support of our pending FOIA
lawsuit.

He concluded that while secret spending may be permissible for
some period of time, it must eventually be disclosed.

"Intelligence budget secrecy can be reconciled with past
practice and with constitutional publication requirements," Dr.
Fisher stated, "but only if it culminates in a regular, periodic
disclosure 'from time to time' of the budget information that
has been withheld."

See the Declaration of Louis Fisher, filed July 20, here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/fisher.pdf


CLASSIFICATION COSTS SKYROCKET

The financial costs of secrecy, including everything from
security clearances to physical security for classified
information, grew dramatically by a billion dollars last year,
according to a report from the Information Security Oversight
Office that was released yesterday.

"The Government cost estimate shows a 14 percent increase above
the cost estimate reported for FY 2002. For the second year in a
row, industry reported an increase in its cost estimate," the
ISOO report stated.

"The total cost estimate for Government and industry for 2003 is
$7.5 billion, $1 billion more than the total cost estimate for
Government and industry in 2002."

See the new ISOO report on classification costs here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/isoo/2003costs.pdf


BILL ON CLASSIFICATION REVIEW BOARD INTRODUCED IN HOUSE

"Today's classification system is broken. The Executive Branch
exerts almost total control over what should or should not be
classified. There is no self-correcting mechanism in the
system."

So said Rep. Robert E. (Bud) Cramer Jr. (D-Ala.) in introducing
new legislation in the House of Representatives to establish an
Independent National Security Classification Board.  The bill is
a companion to legislation introduced in the Senate last week by
Senators Lott and Wyden (SN, 07/16/04).

See Rep. Cramer's July 20 introductory statement here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/hr4855-intro.html


DECLASSIFIED HISTORY OF THE SOVIET LUNAR PROGRAM

"Declassification of formerly classified U.S. intelligence
imagery, documents and former Soviet Union/Russian space
industry histories are helping fill in large gaps in the
historical record of the Soviet side of the manned Lunar race,"
writes Charles P. Vick, an expert on the Soviet space program.

Some of the first fruits of Vick's multi-year investigation into
the history of the Soviet manned lunar program are now being
made available on the web site of GlobalSecurity.org.

See two chapters by Vick linked from this page:

 http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/reports/2004/index
.html


PENTAGON "CONSOLIDATES" ABU GHRAIB DOCUMENT REQUESTS

Freedom of Information Act requests that were sent to the
Pentagon for additional documentation and imagery concerning the
abuse of Iraqi prisoners held in U.S. custody in Iraq (SN,
05/12/04) were forwarded by the Pentagon to U.S. Central Command
for processing.

But now U.S. Central Command is sending them back to the
Pentagon.

"We have been instructed to refer all requests for information
referring to detainee abuse to the Department of Defense
[Pentagon FOIA office]," a CENTCOM FOIA officer wrote.

"In order to provide you with as much information as possible,
all detainee requests are now being consolidated and will be
answered by [the Pentagon]."  See:

 http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2004/07/centcom071304.pdf

Meanwhile, Congressional efforts to gain access to documents on
the Abu Ghraib case and related issues have been frustrated.

"Time and again attempts by this House to acquire documents
related to the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal have been
defeated, largely on party line votes," said Rep. Silvestre
Reyes (D-TX) on July 19, citing several initiatives that had
been blocked by the Republican majority.


MORE CRS ODDS AND ENDS

Not very new, but newly acquired, are these Congressional
Research Service reports:

"Homeland Security: Navy Operations -- Background and Issues for
Congress," updated May 17, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RS21230.pdf

"Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) Import Terminals: Siting, Safety
and Regulation," updated May 27, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/spp/civil/crs/RL32205.pdf

"Jonathan Pollard: Background and Considerations for
Presidential Clemency," updated January 31, 2001:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS20001.pdf

Even-handed to a fault, the CRS proposed a precisely equal
number of arguments for and against clemency for Pollard, who
was convicted of spying for Israel and who remains incarcerated.


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                          Filers Files #31 -- 2004

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:23:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:12:20 -0400
Subject: Filers Files #31 -- 2004


Filers Files #31 -- 2004, Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern
Vice President of Skywatch International
July 21, 2004, Webmaster: Chuck Warren


Life on Mars

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. These Files make the assumption that
extraterrestrial intelligent life exists.

We have reports on: Ammonia in Mars' Atmosphere Indicates Life,
Liquid Water on Mars for Eons of Time, Mars - Structures and
Roads, Solar Radiation, Meteors and Bizarre Weather, Spain to
Attack Asteroids, Outer Space:Not So Lifeless After All, New
York - Flying Triangle, Pennsylvania - Moving White Dot, Georgia
- Bright Eye, Ohio - Unidentified Light, Indiana - Light,
Louisiana -Glowing Green Rocket, New Mexico - Roswell Crash
Correction, Wyoming - Minuteman UFO, California - Triangle
Stars, Washington - Beautiful Triangular Craft, Argentina -
Bright UFOs Appear, England - Milk Hill Bee Formation, Polish -
Military Will Shoot at UFOs, Israel - Four Strange Lights, and
India - Three Discs sighted.

Ammonia in Mars'Atmosphere Indicates Life

Filer's Files has been telling its readers that there is life
on Mars for years. We are happy to report that the European
Space Agency's orbiting Mars Express craft has tentatively
detected ammonia that can survive for only a short time in the
Martian atmosphere. Thus the ammonia must be getting constantly
replenished by living microbes or plant life. Filer Research
Institute has previously detected what appears to be living
lichen and algae on the planet. Linda Howe interviewed Professor
Vittorio Formisano, principal =investigator for Planetary
Fourier Spectrometer on June 12, and he is expected to release
details of new findings at an international conference in Paris.
Scientists believe primitive life could survive around hydro-
thermal vents near the planet's surface. Many rocks also have
patches of lichen, moss or algae.

Australian scientists found evidence that life once existed on
Mars in microscopic fossils of primitive bacteria-like organisms
in a Mars meteorite match characteristics of bacteria found in
mud in Queensland. The research is published today in the
Journal of Microscopy. "The fossils that we have in the
meteorite are the original material -- the only difference is
that you need a very high-powered electron microscope to image
them, to see them and basically whenever we find these fossils
here on Earth, no one ever questions they were made by
bacteria," he said."The only difference is that it was in a
meteorite from Mars."

Methane was also recently found in the Martian atmosphere.
Methane is another gas with a possible biological origin.
Ammonia is a compound of nitrogen and hydrogen. Nitrogen is rare
in the Martian environment but because no form of terrestrial
life can exist without it, the presence of ammonia may indicate
that Martian microbial life is hoarding it.

Liquid Water on Mars for Eons of Time

JPL also announced this week that surface water on Mars existed
across a significant span of time, not just for years but eons
of time. The Rover Opportunity revealed that bodies of liquid
water once existed on the surface of Mars shortly after landing
in January. Now the scientists admit that life is likely. We
still hold to our position that intelligent life once existed on
Mars and likely still does.

Mars - Structures and Roads

Filer's Research Institute has taken a shortcut in scientific
proof. If it looks like roads, towns, and intelligent writing on
rocks. It probably is. Please note the patterns in the satellite
images, they do not appear natural and strongly suggest they are
cultural indicating intelligent life.

Link to Specification Page:

http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/m07_m12/images/M11/M1103072.html

Mars Satellite Image courtesy of JPL and Norman Bryden. Note
straight road or canal like features not normally foundin
nature. Links to JPL

http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/m07_m12/nonmaps/M11/M1103072.gif

Norman Bryden writes, "I would say judging from the size and
shape of the structures that it is reasonable to say that
whoever is on Mars is within the realm of humans because of the
recognizable dimensions and sizes, such as entrances, rooms,
walls and roads. There are also definitely symbols.

Weathering and biological activity on an active planet will
quickly erase most traces of a culture once they cease to exist.
A matter of a hundred years would weather down and cover up most
structures. I think there are definite indications of upkeep and
current activity. I have an image of what I think are roads.
Even in the Midwestthe wagon trails of the past are still
visible, but are being covered up by vegetation and sand. The
objects on Mars seem old and yet =some are still fairly sharp in
definition indicating a fairly recent history. I do think that
Mars is connected to our own past and may indeed be a branch of
human existence, and possibly part alien also.

The architecture seems even more advanced than earth in some
instances and some are old like the Mayan, Aztec, Egyptian and
other ancient tombs and block structures. Thanks to Norman
Bryden

Solar Radiation, Meteors and Bizarre Weather

Solar radiation is very intense right now and you should be
careful at the amount of time you spend in the sun. Sunspot
activity is high.

Our Sun is at sun spot 23652. That leaves only 14 till 23666.
The suns activity is a major contributor to Bizarre Weather
Worldwide. Extreme weather continues tostrike Philippines,
Taiwan, southern China, India, Edmonton, Canada, Japan and right
here in Medford, New Jersey where twelve dams broke when a foot
of water fell on our area in a few hours. Edmonton, Alberta,
experienced a hailstorm burying parts of the city under tons of
ice. This weekend unusually heavy waves hit the Atlantic coast
after M-Class flares exploded on the sun. Watch the sun for bad
weather on Earth.

Unusually warm weather is reported in Alaska. If it continues
violent weather will likely follow in early autumn.


Spain to Attack Asteroids

The European Space Agency has given highpriority to a Spanish
project which aims to attack an approaching asteroid to see
whether spacecraft can deflect a body that may in future be on a
collision course with earth. Two craft will set out -- one named
after the valiant knight of Cervantes' classic tale, Don
Quixote, the other after his long-suffering servant Sancho
Panza. Spacecraft Sancho will circle the chosen asteroid while
the other smashes headlong into the target. The orbiting Sancho
and earth-based telescopes will watch closely to see what, if
any, effect the impact has on the speed and direction of the
asteroid. If all goes toplan, the Quixote mission could launch
around 2010.

Outer Space: Not So Lifeless After All

Robert C. Cowen reports, "Astronomers now think of our galaxy as
a vast reactor for biologically significant organic chemistry."
Materials that could jump-start organic growth have shown up in
interstellar dusty planet-forming discs around many stars. These
findings fuel an increasingly strong suspicion that the raw
material of planet Earth was primed for life. The infrared-
sensing eyes of =NASA's Spitzer Space Telescope made the latest
discovery.

As NASA recently announced, Dan Watson and William Forrest at
the University of Rochester in New York found "significant
amounts of icy organic materials" around five young stars in
Spitzer data. Water, methanol, and carbon dioxide coat dust
particles around the constellation Taurus.

Scientists are looking forward to the return in January 2006 of
the Stardust spacecraft, which has captured dust from Comet Wild
2,that may contain organic material.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0617/p17s01-stss.html


New York - Flying Triangle

HUDSON RIVER - The witness was on a boat on the Hudson River and
observed a very bright light on the northwest horizon on July 3,
2004. The light was ten times brighter than Jupiter so he picked
up his binoculars to look at it. It seemed to be stationary for
a couple of minutes. It started to move toward our location at a
very high rate of speed. A jet liner travels through the sky at
600 mph. This object moved at least ten times that speed. It
covered the whole visible sky, north to south in about ten
seconds. The witness states, "As it flew over I was looking at
it with binoculars and could see the bottom that was a perfect
triangle, with a dim row of lights under each edge." It was very
high up. It must have been very large. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director www.UFOCenter.com


Pennsylvania - Moving White Dot

TIPTON -- On the evening of July 5, 2004 while looking through
binoculars at the evening stars at 10 PM, the observer noticed a
white dot in motion. He states, "It was not an airplane as I had
just seen a small aircraft with red blinking wing lights just
before observing the white dot moving. I watched it through
binoculars for about a half minute. It was not a meteor streak,
but was moving in a line, not darting up or down, but just
moving from my left to my right. It may have been a satellite
but was in my opinion definitely not an aircraft as we know it
to be seen at night." Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com


WASHINGTON DC - Bright Flash

Traveling south down 13th Street NW in Washington DC (a few
blocks north of U street), I saw an amazing flash of white light
explode off the ground from the horizon upwards into the
air/space and disappear

at 6:10 PM on July 17, 2004. The entireaffair lasted about 1/4
of a second but I am confident I saw something - what it is that
I saw, I have no idea.

I am confident it was not some reflection off of the car window.

The size of the flash was quite narrow - if I had to guess the
distance, it would be five to ten miles away from where we were
driving. The size of the flash might be the equivalent of a nail
in the wall viewed from five feet away. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com


Georgia - Bright Eye

DOUGLAS -- On the morning of July 7th, 2004while on a 4 AM,
breakat the local hospital, the witness noticed a very bright
light glowing in the sky.The light appeared sort of orange and
resembled an approaching helicopter. The light was stationary in
one area for about 2 1/2 hours. He works at hospital security
and watches the surveillance cameras at the facility, so he went
inside and aimed the cameras skyward to see if he could get a
better and closer view of the object. He states, "There appeared
to be a bright circle with another circle inside of it." I then
focused the camera and the object appeared to glow outward from
the center and had the appearance of a huge eye. The sky was
clear and stars could easily be viewed. I took pictures of the
object on the camera with my picture phone. I don't know if this
is a UFO or a natural phenomenon of some sort, but I am
definitely sure it was not an airplane or manmade craft. Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director www.hbccufo.com

Ohio - Unidentified Light

CLEVELAND - The witness noticed an object around 8:30 PM, on
July 7, 2004, when he noticed an object flying in a pattern not
common to commercial flights. Seldom do they fly northwest to
southeast. It looked as if it was flying around 40,000 feet, in
a straight line. As clouds passed in front of the object, I
expected it to reappear on the other side...but nothing ever
emerged. The viewing only lasted about 8-10 seconds before it
vanished. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

FOSTORIA -- George Ritter captured two cylinder like objects
moving at high speed above a nearby farmon July 14, 2004.

Indiana - Light

MADISON -- An adult male reported to NUFORC, that three orange
lights had been seen, and video-taped, near the Madison Regatta
on Saturday night, July 3, 2004. The witness reported that he
had beenat the regatta, when he, and a number of other
witnesses, witnessed three "orange balls of light" move across
the sky. One light separated itself from the other two, and
landed on a nearby hilltop. The witness identified himself as a
law enforcement employee, and stated that he did not want to get
involved in the case. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

Louisiana - Glowing Green Rocket

MONROE - The witness was heading to work on Interstate 20 West
near Bayou Lafourche on July 7, 2004, when he saw a glowing
green, rocket-shaped object at 9:05 PM. It was at about a thirty
degree angle directly in front of me. He states, "As quickly as
I fixed my eyes on it, the object appeared to gain speed and
change in color from green to a bright orange and a tail of fire
developed. The tail glowed momentarily in a long strand and then
faded out. This object was traveling out of the south, and
appeared to be on a course to strike the ground a couple of
miles to the east of the Monroe airport. I kept waiting for an
explosion, but none came, so I cannot say without a doubt that
it landed." Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

GRANBY -- The witnesses were walking from the pool to the
Jacuzzi when they noticed a star brighter than an =inner solar
system planet, that was growing in brightness and size on July
16, 2004 at 11:30 PM. In about 2 or 3 seconds it was almost half
as large as full moon and much brighter It seemed to pulsate at
a low visual frequency and had blackish blotches or stripes by
the outer edges.

Suddenly it flew 130 degrees backwards and to the south and
upward. It dimmed and shrank and transformed into a bluish white
haze or mist and vanished. There was no sound during this five-
second UFO sighting. We were both amazed.

My wife and the other couple had seen what we hadfrom a
different angle.

Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Colorado - Star in Daytime Sky

ENGLEWOOD - A stationary star like point of light was observed
in the daylight sky at 1:40 PM, in the Denver-area on July 7,
2004, almost directly overhead. I ran inside to grab my
binoculars and scanned the sky to see if it had moved to another
location. The observer states, "I located it substantially east
of the original location, but again, appearing stationary.
(Later I checked the current weather report and found that the
wind was coming from the north, so apparently the object was not
simply drifting in the wind.) I sighted it through the
binoculars and it appeared to be a single, round, whitish
object. As I watched it for a couple of minutes, sometimes with
the naked eye and sometimes through the binoculars, it remained
almost motionless. Then SUDDENLY, it took off heading to the
south very quickly -- erasing any suspicion I had that it may be
a balloon. Whereas I had been holding the binoculars steady, I
now had a hard time keeping up with the object. A starlike
object was also seen again later that evening at about 7 PM. The
object gave the impression of being very, very high in the sky
and of reflecting the sunlight, as it faded in intensity as the
clouds approached. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

Nevada - Bright White Circle

SPARKS - The witness was in his room with the blinds shut July
5, 2004, at 11 PM, when an outside white light appeared pretty
bright. I open the blinds and saw that it looked like a star. I
compared itto other stars but this one was much brighter and
lower. I went and got my relatives. It started out pretty
bright, it dimmed, it flashed red. It then looked like it was
moving north, but then it looked like it was coming towards us
for like ten seconds, then went north. It was moving pretty
slow, and then picked up speed and disappeared.

Wyoming - Minuteman UFO

F.E. WARREN AFB -- June 1975 - June 1976, an Air Force NCO
states, "I worked in Keys and Codes, which issued codes for
authorized access to the unmanned Minuteman missiles." Keys and
Codes was located within Central Security Control (CSC). One
night a missile launch crew reported to CSC that alarms were
going off at a Minuteman silo located about three miles away on
a rise from the launch center. Minuteman missile silos were
unmanned and a launch center controlled ten missiles. Topside
from the launch center, the Security Police response team could
see a bright white object lighting up the country side and
hovering over the silo. The security team refused to respond.
CSC asked the launch crew what they thought about the situation
and the SP refusal to respond. The launch crew states they would
get back to CSC and hung up. CSC told the SP supervisor at the
launch center to call back and let them know what they decided
to do. We never heard back from them during the remainder of our
shift. Maintenance crewsreported seeing big foot tracks in the
snow walking around the fence line of the silos. Security Police
reported colored balls of light drifting through their sleeping
quarters at the launch center sites during the night. At that
time, Wyoming was experiencing cattle mutilations in the area.
Security Police missile patrols reported several times that they
had seen helicopters at night sitting on the ground with no
lights on and their engines running. These sightings were
reported to the local country sheriff's offices, but nothing was
ever found. As for Davis-Monthan, nothing ever happened while I
was assigned there. Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research


New Mexico - Roswell Crash Correction

Last week Wireless Flash Weird News reported in these files, "In
an ending similar to that of Geraldo Riviera's Al Capone vault
special, a team of investigators who dug up a field near
Roswell, New Mexico, found no evidence to prove the 1947 UFO
crash."

Tom Carey responds, "While I'm sure that Mr. Wireless Flash is
on top of all things Roswellian, how can you go with such clap-
trap without at least trying to check some things out first? The
debris field/crash site to those who have been there hasn't
moved one inch since 1947 - no matter what people who have never
been there =5Bincluding yourself=5D say. Unknown artifacts from
the 2002 dig were found including evidence of a past impact
=5Bright where it was said to have been=5D at the site which
eliminates the Air Force's and debunkers' balloon explanation of
the 1947 event. How does that translate in your column into,
"Nothing was found."? And I have Gen. Exon on audio tape telling
me that the crash sites he could see two of them fromhis
aircraft were SE of Corona - not NW as you state in your
column. Thanks to Tom Carey Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania

Larry Landsman writes, "Not sure what Wireless Flash is but they
obviously did not read the book" Totally contrary tothis story,
Bill Doleman of the Univ of NM did in fact find evidence of a
gouge.We haven't been able to go back yet to do more testing. Is
there some way to issue a correction? This sounds like an effort
to debunk the effort Thanks to Larry Landsman Director, Special
Projects SCI FI Channel
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743486129/mothman


Editor's Note: When I visited the debris and crash sites near
Corona, the information provided to me was that there were two
distinct crash sites. First, there was the shredded wreckage
debris site at the Foster Ranch where only small pieces possibly
from an explosion were found. A second or actual crash site was
where the main body of the craft and bodies were located. A
possible gouge in the ground at the debris site may indicate
that the spacecraft hit the ground, bounced, and became airborne
again and continuedto fly until it reached its final resting
place. UFOs are generally reported as flying at thousands of
miles per hour, so it is logical to assume that a large distance
was covered between the debris site and the final location of
the =craft. Reportedly it wassitting at the base of a large hill
or arroyo.

In the book "The UFO Crash At Roswell" by Randle and Schmitt,
General Exon states,"(It was) probably part of the same
accident, but (there were) two distinct sites. One, assuming
that the thing, as I understand it, as I remember flying the
area later, that the damage to the vehicle seemed to be coming
from the southeast to the northwest, but it could have been in
the opposite direction, but it doesn't seem likely. So the
farther northwest pieces found on the ranch, those pieces were
mostly metal." When asked about the bodies, he said, "There was
another location where =E2=80=A6 apparently the main body of the
spacecraft was =E2=80=A6 where they did say there were bodies. .
. " Page 110.

Friedman and Berliner in their book Crash At Corona state,
"Even the limited evidence from the Corona area strongly
suggests there were three separate crash sites: the so called
debris field on the Foster Ranch where so much scrap was found
by Brazel and then collected by Marcel and Cavitt, a site
several miles away, where the main body of the craft lay, and a
site a mileor two of that where the bodies were found in or near
what Glenn Dennis has described as "escape capsules." Page
112

I have always maintained that a crash of an alien craft most
likely occurred in New Mexico in 1947, and that the debris site
is not the crash site. I hope you are able to find some
definitive evidence to help prove that the crash occurred. I'm
always happy to report on any evidence that might be found.

California - Triangle Stars

KINGSBURG - Three friends were stargazing on July 8, 2004, when
they noticed an unusual formation like stars, but they were
traveling in a equally shaped small triangle form. They were
lights, nothing visible to the eye inthe formation, just black.
It traveled for about five minutes or so when two of the ends of
the triangle started to fade away. The formation started to slow
down, and the two corners of the formation disappeared and the
final end left stopped and stayed still. Almost trying to blend
in with the stars. www.UFOCenter.com


SHAFTER - The witness was at work at a LPG Refinery and was
walking across the plant when he noticed a disc or Saucer shaped
object hovering off in the distance almost a mile away on July
17, 2004. The disc was only about 3,000 ft in the air or less.

It glowed or reflected the midday sun, but with a noticeably
dark shadow at the bottom of the object. He moved towards the
object and noticed that after a few minutes it flew in a northwest
direction directly away from him It never changed direction
although it did change reflectivity but shadow of the underneath
didn't. The day before he had another sighting of a completely
different object but with four other witnesses. I had a strange
feeling that it was observing the refinery. www.UFOCenter.com

Washington - Flying Triangle

SEATTLE - I spoke with Peter Davenport who met with the witness,
and found him to be exceptionally credible. The witness states,
" I was out in front of my daughter's home in Seattle June
20th, about 11:15 PM the summer solstice in full effect, so the
sky was illuminated dimly, clear sky. I was talking to my wife
and daughter when I tilted my head back to stretch, and this
triangular shape craft was moving from south to north direction,
quietly, without much effort. I witnessed it for about 3
seconds, then it went behind the house and I lost contact. It
was triangular in shape with a black leading edge, and lighter
gray color inboard, with dim white lights at each corner of the
lighter gray surface, I don't know what its elevation was, but I
could see very good detail, about the size of 3/4 full moon.
This machine was mechanicallyand materially beautiful, I have
seen up close and in flight all kinds of aircraft, such as F-
14s,F-15 Eagles, F-16 Falcons, B-1s, B-2s, B-52s, B-58 Hustlers,
=SR-71s, but this craft sent chills up my spine, because of its
triangular shape, mechanical and composite beauty. I do believe
this is very similar to the Belgium sightings in the 1990's that
I have seen and read about. I knew what it wasthe second I saw
it.

Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com
Argentina- Bright UFOs Appear

BUENOS AIRES -- On Monday, July5, 2004, at 7 p.m., "several
self-luminous UFOs, of a potent magnitude with blue and white
tints, flew from the east, the Rio de la Plata, to the
northeast, over the Avenida Nueve de Julio. According to
Argentinean =ufologist Ricardo E. D'Angelo, "numerous
objects" were seen in the northern part of the city, "from
the dome of El Congreso (the Capitol building--J.T.) all the way
north to the RioParana. I received reports from other ufologists
in the northern part of the city, notably Carlos Turus and
Daniel Valverdi, and they reported the bright objects over both
the Rio de la Plata<SPAN style=3D"mso-bidi-font-family:
Arial"> waterfront and the residential neighborhoods of Santa
Fe. They described the event as 'a truly strange phenomenon.'"
(Muchas gracias a Ricardo E. D' Angelo para estas noticias and
UFO Roundup, Joseph Trainor Editor Vol 9 =2323, 7/18/04 )

England - Milk Hill Bee Formation

ALTON BARNES - On June 26th 2004, a bee like crop circle symbol
was found in a farmer's field that looks like it is trying to
fly towards the White Horse<SPAN style=3D"mso-bidi-font-
weight: bold"> on Milk Hill. The symbol has wings indicating
an ability to fly and was located quite near the large cut out
of a White Horse carving in white chalk on Milk Hill. We can
speculate that the architects of the crop =circle were trying to
communicate a message to us that includes the bee andthe horse?
There are numerous megalithic sites in the area that are visited
regularly by UFOs indicating an unusual interest in the area. I
chased a UFO over the area myself when in the Air Force. The
symbol looks like a bee and an indication of flight. It is not
generally known, but bees have the ability to communicate with
each other. When a bee returns to the hive he will move in
circles and communicate a path to specific flowers so other bees
may collect the pollen. They transfer the location of the
flowers that may be miles away by an intricate communication
system, so the other bees in the hive can go to the source of
the nectar. Using the nectar the bees make honey which is in
Greek mythology the drink of the Gods.

A horse is often used as a symbol of conquest or famine.
Although we can only speculate what message was being sent by
the creator of the crop circle we can turn to the Bible for one
possibility. Revelations indicates Jesus will return riding a
white horse from heaven bringing an Army riding white horses for
the battle of Armageddon followed by a world of peace and a land
of milk and honey.

The symbol also looks like the famous Hermetic symbol - the
Caduceus that is used as an international symbol for medicine
and healing. Alien entities are often reported to carry a rod or
wand that allegedly heals. Many abductees claimed to have been
healed with the magic rod or wand.&nb=

This crop circle may be trying to give us some sort of
directions. Silbury Hill is to the north, Tan Hill and Wansdyke
to the west, the Vale of Pewsey to the south and Adam's Grave
and Rybury Hill to the southwest.

The fields around this site are riddled with ancient earthworks,
long barrows and Iron Age cross-dykes. See more great photos and
unravel the symbols:

http://cropcircleconnector.com/2004/milkhill/milkhill2004a.html

Thanks to Steve Alexander Image Copyright 2004

 CAMBRIDGESHIRE -- The conditions were excellent: blue skies,
with a few sizable white clouds making an appearance on July 6,
2004, at around 11:45 AM. The witness noticed a single bright
"dot" in the sky. Through binoculars, the object appeared
oblong-shaped, with luminous sides that alternately glowed then
dimmed as it continued to travel slowly along in a strange
tumbling-like motion. The object also wasn't a balloon, as it
appeared to stop for 20 seconds or so before moving on.

The object was proceeding in a westerly direction, until two
USAF tanker planes appeared close by from the south, at around
20,000 feet. The =object then changed direction, gliding slowly
about the sky in it's strange, tumbling motion. I continued to
watch the object through binoculars until it was directly
overhead as a light aircraft, passed under the object at around
5,000 feet. I eventually lost sight of the object in a big
cloud. The object has an odd plasma-like, quasi-organic
appearance.

Polish - Military Will Shoot at UFOs

According to the Polish Newspaper Fakt military personnel have
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: normal; mso-bidi-font-weight:
bold">command to shoot down UFOs. Captain Adam Krysiewicz from
Naval Forces said today to journalist from newspaper Fakt .

They report that the number of UFO objects seen this year on
radars is exceptionally high. Thanks to Tomek Wierszaloveicz
www.e-fakt.pl

Israel - Four Strange Lights

JAFFA/TEL AVIV - The witness reports that, "Just before10 PM,
my spouse and I were on the patio, 12 stories above the street
on July 7, 2004. I noticed two lights about 2,000 feet above
Jaffa Port, which is located three miles south of us. The light
had pink and blue pale color, and did not move, and dimmed
before disappearing One light was at 12 o'clock the other at6
o'clock position, moved very slowly to a 1 and 7 o'clock
position, got dimmer and disappeared and immediately one
appeared hundreds of feet above where the first two were. Over
time that light dimmed and another two appeared, one of those
dimmed and disappeared then the second disappeared. During this
of 45 minute episode, a small four passenger plane flew past our
location, on the coast heading south toward Jaffa, where lights
would be visible to pilot. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

India - Three Discs

Steve Walters AUSTRALIA UFO RESEARCH (NSW) received a

report from Swati Sharma that on July 5, 2004, at 9:32 p.m., he&=
nbsp;saw

three disc-like objects rotating rapidly and moving forward with a great

speed. They were very high and were a dim red-color light. I rushed

for my camera but they disappeared. I am from Sharanpur which is a

small city in Uttar Pradesh, India. The disc like objects were probably

UFOs. I wanted to share my information as it might be of great help

to you. Thanks to Swati Sharma in India mast_libran2003.nul

and Steve Walters AUSTRALIA UFO RESEARCH (NSW)

 uforesearch.nul


DONATE TO KEEP THESE FILES COMING

Dear Readers - Filer's Files has been brought to you free on a
weekly basis for seven years. As of January 2004, requesting a
donation of $24 per year to enable me to continue with Filer's
Files. These files cannot exist without your help. Donations can
be sent to: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for
majorstar.nul

You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or Master Charge.&nb=
sp; You can also mail your check to

George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055.

Many Thanks for your donations


New Mars CD showing dozens of images at much higher quality than
available on Internet for $25. Just contact us at the above
address.


WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW WHEN BUY OR SELL REAL ESTATE

Get your free report and learn how you can obtain the best real
estate agent to help your buy or sell a home. To get a free
copy of this report e-mail me at: Majorstar.nul



FREE RELOCATION SERVICE

If your thinking of moving or buying or selling a home anywhere
in the United States. Let my wifeand I help you. Many of the
largest companies use our service. Just contact us at:
Majorstrar.nul

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/.&nb=

sp; To ask questions contact MUFONHQ.nul or HQ.nul
 "The MUFON Journal is now accepting qualified advertising,
please call 1 (303) 932-7709 for more information."

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2004 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web
Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and
list the date of issue. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar.nul Sending mail automatically grants permission
forus to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to
keep your nameor e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE
ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George A. Filer www.GeorgeFiler.com/






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

             CCCRN News: Formation Report #4 - Prince George BC

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:52:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:15:27 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Formation Report #4 - Prince George BC



CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

July 21, 2004

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


FORMATION REPORT #4 - PRINCE GEORGE, BRITISH COLUMBIA

The fourth reported formation for this year, a long "pictogram"
of circles, rings and pathways in pasture grass, found July 12
in Moore's Meadow nature park. Approximately 76 metres (250
feet) long (initial estimate). Three circles range from
approximately 0.9 metres (3 feet) to 15 metres (50 feet)
diameter, and two rings are approximately 18 metres (60 feet)
diameter each. Generally rough in appearance, with standing
centres in the circles. Also reported in the Prince George
Citizen newspaper on July 13. Initial ground photos have been
posted on the web site. Aerial photos and further details
pending.

Also:

CCCRN director Paul Anderson will provide an update on this
year's formations so far in a radio interview with Linda Moulton
Howe of Earthfiles on Coast to Coast AM on Friday, July 23.
Other interviews will also cover recent formations in the USA
and Europe.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an e-mail with either
Subscribe CCCRN News or Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the subject
line to: cccrnnews.nul

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, media and scientists

c. CCCRN, 2004








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

               Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:51:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:19:32 -0400
Subject: Re:  Creatures With No Business Here! - Stanford


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:41:36 -0700
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:23:42 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:49:48 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

><snip>

>>>Yes, the desert vegetation changes very slowly. The Walnut
>>trees and the cottonwood tree are at least 100 years old. The
>>burn and scorch marks are apparent and noticeable but seem
>>somewhat weathered, as you'd expect. These trees are still alive
>>but the heat damage clearly seen.

>>>>I would think that any traces of burnt vegetation would have
>>>>blown away, been scoured away in a sandstorm, washed away in the
>>>>rare torrential rains etc. long long since.

>>The immediate area only gets a few inches of rain a year and
>>sometimes, nothing at all. The wind is a factor but hasn't
>>erased the evidence. I would say that this area hasn't changed
>>much in the last 57 years. The biggest land modifications are
>>caused by the cattle that wander around the site. The
>>cristobalite is impervious to alteration.

>>Ah! Scorch marks still apparent. If there is any black
>>carbon residue (hard ash) then samples could be carefully
>>scraped off and collected. Great care must be taken not
>>to remove any living or recently dead tissues.

>>Then, being almost all carbon, maybe it could be carbon dated!
>>Somebody else's expertise needed here, way out of my bailiwick]
>>I don't know what the margins of error are in such testing, or
>>whether half a century is long enough for good results.
>>Hopefully, they could date the scorching back to 57 years plus
>>or minus a few, rather than say half or double that span.

>I have thought about that possibility but my understanding is
>that radio carbon dating wouldn't be accurate for such a short
>time-span. I think the error range is one hundred years. The
>best test would be dendrochronology and I've inquired into that.
>I could probably get a definitive test for about two thousand
>dollars. I have a person who'd be willing to do the test. I
>don't have two grand to spend this way, but someone may want to
>help out or know of funds that might be available for this
>purpose.

>>Frankly, scorched trees in the desert, in close association with
>>glassified minerals as described, sound like nothing so much as
>>a massive bolt of lightning, or ten, or any number of them over
>>years, decades.....
>
>I thought of lightning; the cottonwood tree is certainly a
>candidate but the three hundred yards of walnut trees (maybe 35-
>45 individual trees) are another matter.

>The cristobalite is not formed from the base rock which is
>rhyolite. The cristobalite is a melt on top of the bedrock and
>is also plastered to two hundred thousand square yards of sand,
>and small, individual rocks and bacterial mats.

Friends on the List, that is the fantasy of a self-deceiving
'reporter'! In the first place, cristobalite is NOT a melt!
Months ago I challenged Ed to produce for my inspection any
desert sand, per se, from that site that is coated with
cristobalite or even glass melt (which is what he originally
claimed it to be). Of course, he did not provide it and cannot
provide it, because it exists only in his fantasy of
misinterpretation of what he was seeing. Frankly, I exposed Ed's
B.S. about this many months ago. Yet, like an evangelist, he
keeps on running off at the mouth about beliefs of having found
a UFO crash site, while revealing his petrological and
geological ignorance. If any one of you is still willing to
believe Ed's harangue about this, please do a bit of
investigation for yourself, concerning the conditions in which
cristobalite forms, or else read the following:

Determination of the presence of cristobalite in a rock
constrains of the temperature range at which that rock
crystallized. Cristobalite forms from molten rock at
temperatures above approximately 1470 degrees Celsius to the
boiling point of silica. Please note that pressure and water
content will vary the crystallization range slightly, but the
presence of cristobalite is a good indication of the extreme
temperature at which a rock crystallized, simply because below
1470 degrees Celsius and above 870 degrees Celsius, tridymite (a
polymorph of quartz) is stable and will crystallize. Below 870
degrees Celsius, beta quartz is stable and it will crystallize.
Since a molten rock descends through various temperatures as it
cools, all three polymorphs can be present, confusing the issue,
but Ed's samples indicate a rather stable temperature in the
1470 degrees Celsius (and up to the boiling point of silica)
range, for a period of time far more EXTENDED than would be
available in any surface nuclear or thermonuclear blast or,
surely, from the crash on any alien vehicle.

As may be deduced from the above facts, Cristobalite cannot form
on the earth's surface, because even if the temperature became
high enough, the temperature exposure duration and
crystallization period would be far inadequate. Even the heat of
a nuclear bomb cannot create cristobalite on the earth's surface
for the very same reason. As a geographically appropriate
example of that fact, I have several large and small specimens
on Trinitite (Trinitite is the New Mexico desert surface fusion
product from the earth's first nuclear bomb explosion at Trinity
Site in New Mexico on July 16, 1945, and not a great distance
from where Ed fantasizes a UFO crashed and formed cristobalite
on the surface.), and it is a melt consisting of glasses of
varying composition, depending on the mineral(s) in the melt
(primarily from quartz). Mostly, it consists of a gray to green
glass, and cristobalite is not present and never formed, for the
reasons explained above.

Cristobalite's wide spread distribution in certain types of
volcanic rocks provides an 'abundance rating' of at least
'common', and the rock from which the crystalline samples Ed
sent to me grow is in fact the volcanic rock rhyolite, the
typical rock associated with cristobalite, and some of its
fissures contain later-formed agate. The cristobalite and
rhyolite from Ed's site is ancient (See below.), and those rocks
are well known in that area of New Mexico.

With help of friends at USGS, the specimens Ed claimed to be
effects of a UFO crash have now been determined to have been
derived from one of an outcropping cluster of five overlapping
ignimbritic calderas pretty well surface-exposed in strongly
extended, tilted fault-block hill (as shown in photos Ed sent
me) and mountain ranges of the central Rio Grande rift southwest
of Socorro, New Mexico (the location Ed gives for his fantasized
"crash site"). That Socorro-Magdalena caldera cluster is 85
kilometers long and 20-25 kilometers wide, paralleling the
southeastern boundary of the Colorado Plateau and the WSI-
trending San Augustin arm of the rift.

The 40Ar/39Ar (isotopic) age of sanidines from the rhyolite
ignimbrites (from which Ed's crystals grow) varies at around 28
million years -- quite a bit older than July, 1947, I'd say.
Forget the tree-ring dating, Ed! :)

Over 5,000 cubic kilometers of welded ignimbrite and moat-fill
lavas erupted in the aforementioned caldera complex. Ed happened
upon a nice fault-related outcropping of that mass, and nothing
more. That's certainly nothing to get excited about, unless
you're letting your imagination run away with you after viewing
the "Alien Autopsy" film.

Ed's claim of finding a 'mercury engine' UFO crash site heated
into a coating of cristobalite is not only a fiction of his mind
as proved by the facts and dating above, but utterly impossible
for the thermal reasons explained.

Ed, it is time you stopped broadcasting your daydreams as
scientific fact. And don't expect me to further entertain any
more of your fantastic claims and arguments about this and your
pseudoscientific declarations. With the good samples you
provided me, it was not necessary to waste my time trekking to
the site with you and/or your brother to learn of what the
samples consisted, but thanks for the invitation

If this was ever a science with you, Ed, it has ceased to be
that, and seems to have become a religion. I'm probably foolish
to even get involved trying to talk to anyone filled with such
zeal as you display concerning this, but since I will be leaving
this list in a few days in order to be involved with some other
UFOlogical matters, I have taken this opportunity before I leave
to at least let receptive list colleagues hear, "...the rest of
the story...".

As to your suggested $2,000 dating of burned trees at the
'site', as you proposed while saying, "The best test would be
dendrochronology..." You really are quite funny! Even if it
could be shown that the burned trees died in 1947, that would
provide no evidence whatsoever that the source of the burn was a
crashed UFO. That scheme is about as poorly thought out as the
rest of your unfounded, self-serving 'deductions'.

So, forget the tree-ring thing. The only ring that you, Ed,
should be concerned with right now is one to constrain your
flights of fantasy in this matter.


Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

              Re: The San Diego Comic Convention This Weekend -

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:57:01 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:20:55 -0400
Subject: Re: The San Diego Comic Convention This Weekend -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:01:26 EDT
>Subject: The San Diego Comic Convention This Weekend

>It's the biggest comics/scifi/fantasy convention of the year.

>For many of you Ufologists you've got lots of fans there both
>amongst the public and professionals. If you have the weekend
>off, visit and shmooze around. It's a great way to meet many
>directors, producers, finance folks whom your publicists or
>agents can chat with you on upcoming projects etc.

>I'll have 3 of my own properties being represented on the floor
>and have done production art for new films due out so I may see
>some of you there.

>You guys would be suprised whom your fans are and what they do
>in entertainment and merchandising. I speak to them on a regular
>basis and that 'UFO' debate will spring forward and we'll all
>have a good time too.


Wish I could be there, Greg. I could use a few yuks.

Have fun,

Don Ledger








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                            Feeling Is Believing?

From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:06:44 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:23:14 -0400
Subject: Feeling Is Believing?

Source: ABC News.Com

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/SciTech/DyeHard/alien_abduction_dyehard_040721.ht
ml

07-21-04


Feeling Is Believing?
Alien Abductees Reveal How Emotion Can Cloud Reality
By Lee Dye
ABCNEWS.com

Researchers at Harvard University called on aliens from outer
space to help them solve a problem that surfaces frequently in
everything from therapeutic sessions to criminal trials, or even
just chatting with a friend. How do you know if someone is
telling the truth when he or she recalls memories of childhood
abuse, or being raped by satanic cults, or some other traumatic
insult?

One clue that many of us rely on is the emotional reaction of
the person telling the story. If the victim breaks out in sweat
and becomes extremely emotional while recalling those memories,
it's more difficult to dismiss them as false.

But all that really means is the person truly believes his or
her memories are true, not that they really are, according to
the researchers.

"The person really believes something happened," says Richard
McNally, a clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at
Harvard, lead author of a study in the July issue of
Psychological Science. "But that doesn't necessarily mean it
did."

True or False?

Deciding which memories are true, and which are false, is a real
tough problem for therapists and law enforcement officials, and
sometimes friends. That's especially true when long-buried
memories suddenly surface involving traumatic events that may
have occurred years ago. McNally has struggled with the problem
for years, moving from combat traumas to memories of childhood
sexual abuse.

He says that even a seasoned therapist can be influenced by the
emotional state of the person recalling the memories.

"A therapist is more inclined to credit the account as authentic
if it's accompanied by really intense emotion," he says. "The
therapist thinks 'my goodness, something must have happened.' "

Years of research have convinced him that even false memories
can stimulate a lot of emotion, but how do you prove that in the
lab? That's where the aliens from space come in.

If someone claims to have been sexually abused years ago, it's
almost impossible to prove those memories false. What the
researchers needed was a group of people who sincerely believed
memories of something that clearly never happened.

So they put an ad in newspapers asking for people who had been
abducted by aliens from space.

Emotions Cloud Truth

They got a lot of weird phone calls, including some from people
claiming to be aliens, but in time they had their subjects, six
women and four men who believed they had been abducted by alien
beings. Their average age was 47. Seven women and five men, who
had not been abducted, also participated in the study.

The "abductees," as they came to be known, were interviewed and
recorded as they told brief stories about their abduction, as
well as other stressful, happy and neutral tales. All of the
participants were wired so the researchers could monitor for
heart rate, sweat production, and facial muscle tension, three
strong indicators of emotional stress.

The emotional reaction among the abductees soared while
listening to the stories of stress and abductions. But it was
much weaker while listening to happy or neutral narratives.

The 12 participants who had never been abducted barely responded
to any of the stories.

The verdict was clear, McNally says. The emotional reaction,
which can be so convincing, had nothing to do with the veracity
of the memories of the folks who believed they had been
abducted.

Why did they believe so strongly in something that is so
implausible? In answers to a questionnaire, the abductees scored
high on personality traits that make them a bit different. For
example, just because an idea seems magical doesn't necessarily
mean it isn't true.

People with those traits tend to have "a rich fantasy life, and
to endorse unconventional beliefs," the researchers say in their
report.

And the stories they told were anything but conventional, yet
they had much in common, McNally says.

"I would ask them, how did this all begin," McNally says. "And
they would typically say 'I was lying in bed one night, and a
few hours before dawn I suddenly woke up. I tried to move over
and I realized I was completely paralyzed. It was absolutely
terrifying. I felt electrical sensations coursing through my
body, I heard humming noises, I saw lights flashing, and I felt
myself levitating off my bed when suddenly I saw these strange
beings, these strange figures coming up towards the bed. And
then I blanked out. Later, I woke up and had no idea what had
happened.' "

Some time later, McNally says, while in therapy, the memories
came back.

"'I was taken up into a spaceship, medically probed, met alien
beings, met my hybrid children,' " the participants told him.
They frequently said they had sex with the aliens.

To the abductees, that meant they were something special.

All described the abduction as terrifying, but when McNally
asked them if they wished it had never happened, they all said
it was worth it. The abduction proved there were other beings
out there who cared for us, and for our planet, and even wanted
to mate with humans to ensure continued survival of life on
Earth.

"Their experience with these alien beings ultimately becomes
sort of a spiritually deepening one for them," McNally says.

Most of the participants came from traditional religious
backgrounds, but had drifted away.

"These individuals have strong spiritual needs that are not
being met by conventional religions," McNally suggests.

Whatever the cause, the research shows clearly that to these
people, the memories are real, even though it's safe to say the
events never happened. But there's no point in trying to
convince them.

Even if he could explain to them exactly why they thought all
this happened, and show convincing reasons why the memories are
false, "I strongly suspect they would not buy it," he says. "A
naturalistic explanation robs the universe of its magic," he
says.

Lee Dye�s column appears weekly on ABCNEWS.com. A former science
writer for the Los Angeles Times, he now lives in Juneau,
Alaska.

(end of article)

-- Above is the article. Now, here is my response. I sent this
message to Dye via ABC News' feedback form on this page:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DyeHard/mail_dye.html but
you can also write to him directly at: leedye.nul

Your article "Feeling is Believing?" was evidently not fact
checked. You quote Harvard psychologist McNally as saying as
"Some time later, while in therapy, the memories [of alien
encounters] came back." In fact, McNally's paper says that some
of the participants had engaged in "quasi-hypnotic techniques",
a broad term which includes folks who were simply going for some
Reiki treatments. Also contrary to the impression conveyed, most
of the subjects had explicit memories (conscious awareness) of
some of their experiences.

Beyond these factual errors, there's also two errors on the part
of McNally: First, his interpretation of his data depends upon
his personal assumption that alien contact is not real (a fine
position to be sure, but a "leap of faith" nonetheless).
Secondly, McNally displays an error of logic when he suggests,
towards the end of your article, that people's desire for
spiritual connection is why the subjects' interpret their
experiences as contact with other life. Logically, the presence
of a desire, such as "thirst" for example, neither proves nor
disproves that the resolution of the desire is on offer -- but
no logical person would argue that the presence of thirst
disproves the existence of "water"!

McNally's opinions (assumptions) yet again lead him away from
the responsible position of admitting that his data on the
physiological responses can cut either way, and the
interpretation depends entirely on a matter of personal opinion.
He was challenged on this point at one of Harvard's Junior
Symposiums last year, and rightly so, for it is irresponsible to
promote only one interpretation when the data support more than
one interpretation. Another opinion which McNally is espousing
is the common idea that sleep paralysis may account for alien
encounters. Yet in fact, his study did not compare the subjects'
perception of sleep paralysis to their perception of their so-
called "alien encounters," so again, we have a personal opinion
put forth as if it were part of the results of the study.
Remarkable.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 21

                 Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:16:05 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:25:03 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:43:20 +0200
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul >
>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:40:18 -0300
>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:54:08 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:21:42 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>><snip>

>>>>When a sighting is said to have been made by a "trained
>>>>observer", one expects that the report will include trained
>>>>observations. Otherwise why mention credentials at all?

>>>Because alleged "credentials" lend support to a hoax, especially
>>>when the hoaxer is too lazy to look up basic medical facts to
>>>make the fraud more believable. Keffel and Martins did a better
>>>job of hoaxing Barra da Tijuca.

>>Brad, I am sorry to say that, but you are jumping to seriously
>>irresponsible conclusions here. I urge you to get more info on
>>Varginha Case as soon as possible. I can send you Ubirajara's
>>book, which is very detailed, but I'm afraid you don't read
>>Portuguese and we don't have it in English - yet. Anyway, I
>>should ask you to keep comments such as these above for a time
>>when you have more info on the case.

>Read again your two first messages, quoting Ubirajara, and you
>will see that you depreciated the "Doctor", suggesting that he
>is not a reliable witness.

>I must say that it came as a shock to me!



Really ???

I read the message twice again just now and didn=B4t find any
depreciation to the "Doctor".

Please, Gildais, be more specific about where exactly it seems
that I depreciated the man.


Many thanks.

A. J.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 22

                     Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:49:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:04:13 -0400
Subject: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know


Are You Nuts? The US Govt. Wants To Know...By Force

Abductees, watch your tales - no misspelling there.

Here it is gang,

On July 14th the House Appropriations Committee okayed over $20
million clams for the President's newest caper, The New Freddom
Commission On Mental Health (NFC).

In other words a federally funded program to get every man,
woman and child screened for mental illness. That's forced mind
you, not elective.

It's a trick to put people on psychiatric drugs that are known
to be dangerous such as Prozac, Ritalin, etc.

Looks like another 'Big Brother' campaign in the works.

It's now up to the Senate and House to greenlight it and
considering the umpteen billions of bucks to be made with this
program by the pharmaceutical companies, it's a given they'll
okay it and then here come the straight jackets and nets.

There's also the 'Child Medication Act (S.1390) which is set up
to protect you and your kids from forced medication. That's
stalled by Ted Kennedy who says more studies are needed. Since
Kennedy is supported by big pharmaceutical companies again we
see the conflict.

Since mental illness in this country is defined by one book,
American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical
Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) it's curious to note that there
is no medical or scientific means to diagnose mental illness. I
thought otherwise but they don't do chemical tests, brain scans
etc. All these disorders are 'voted' in based on behavioral
characteristics. Heck, if you're having a nicotine fit according
to this book you could be locked up.

Recently the U.K. put her foot down and banned these drugs from
children. That was a brave and honorable thing to do.

If you really, really want a good laugh, just read some of the
listed 'mental illnesses'. It's funnier than 'MAD Magazine'.

"Mathmatics Disorder" and "Caffeine Related Disorder". What the
heck is that? You can't find a 'Starbucks' so it's off to a
rubber room?

No. Like I've said when looking into what happens to people who
are abductees. I kept finding stories of psychiatric abuse from
incarcerations to torture. We've allowed 'sanity' to be defined
as ' going against the status quo '. If the top dog doesn't like
the way you think or act it's drugs or a padded cell.

Now I realize why abductees and witnesses are so reticent to
come forward because of these horrors.

Last night Jeff Rense had Bruce Wiseman from CCHR:
"Citizen's Commission on Human Rights".

http://www.cchr.org

Last hour of his show for 7/20/04. Listen on Jeff's archives.

What Wiseman and other watchdog folks have told me, the last
place you wanna end up is in a psych ward. I know, I've seen
them. I remember as a kid Geraldo Rivera broke the mold of
journalism when he exposed these abuses at the Willowbrook
hospital. I can't describe it.

With the debunkers and their character assassinations not
working anymore they'll try the old " I can't win a decent
argument because they have the facts so let's call them crazy
and toss em' in a psych ward " trick.

I'm really worried that abductees will soon be the focus of a
witch hunt and forced to take dope to cope.


Best,

Greg









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 22

               Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:24:45 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:08:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:51:24 -0400
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>Friends on the List, that is the fantasy of a self-deceiving
>'reporter'! In the first place, cristobalite is NOT a melt!

It's my opinion that Ray is reacting very much the debunker in
trying to refute my observations regarding the cameraman's crash
site. This is what he's told me both on List and in private
conversation, and during email exchanges: He and his wife
watched Fox's presentation back in 1995 and both his wife and he
thought the creature was a ridiculous fraud and both laughed
their heads off. He's never looked at it since. One viewing, so
much faith.

So he thinks the whole AA investigation is a huge waste of time,
and that all those who take the time to try to figure it out are
prone to "fantasy" and "self-deceiving".

In Ray's world this has to be so because he's convinced
that all AA evidence must be suspect, because the footage of
the creature is a hoax. So how could there be a secluded
desert location covered with 200,000 square yards of
cristobalite?

It just can't be so, no way and no how! Why? Because it just
can't be.

>Months ago I challenged Ed to produce for my inspection any
>desert sand, per se, from that site that is coated with
>cristobalite or even glass melt (which is what he originally
>claimed it to be). Of course, he did not provide it and cannot
>provide it, because it exists only in his fantasy of
>misinterpretation of what he was seeing.

Ray knows perfectly well why I never sent him a sample of the
bacterial mats or sand covered with cristobalite. He reneged on
our previous arrangement. I had requested help from the list in
identifying the strange material and he volunteered to do so. I
sent him the material with the understanding that he would test
it until he found out something definitive and during our phone
conversation he agree to do a micropix or whatever it took. But
then Ray took another look at the material and decided it was
agate. In fact he was so sure that he told me he'd "bet his life
on it"; he refused to do any further testing so I consulted Dick
Cheney and he advised me what to say. When the material was
finally identified as cristobalite, imagine Ray's surprise. He
still hasn't gotten over it. At least he didn't kill himself. I
understand errors in judgment and was more than willing to
forgive him, but he never asked for ablution.

>Frankly, I exposed Ed's
>B.S. about this many months ago.

You exposed exactly zero. Your posts on the subject were devoid
of content or understanding . Exactly what did you expose?

>Yet, like an evangelist, he
>keeps on running off at the mouth about beliefs of having found
>a UFO crash site, while revealing his petrological and
>geological ignorance.

That this point there should be some evidence, a simple
example of my "petrological and geological ignorance." I have
ten college units of Geology from UNM. And Ray has
how many?

>If any one of you is still willing to
>believe Ed's harangue about this, please do a bit of
>investigation for yourself, concerning the conditions in which
>cristobalite forms, or else read the following:

Ray doesn't have to copy and post stuff that anyone can read on
the web through simple searches. He knows perfectly well that I
understand these facts, or at least he should, unless he's
become severely retarded in his declining years.

>Determination of the presence of cristobalite in a rock
>constrains of the temperature range at which that rock
>crystallized. Cristobalite forms from molten rock at
>temperatures above approximately 1470 degrees Celsius to the
>boiling point of silica. Please note that pressure and water
>content will vary the crystallization range slightly, but the
>presence of cristobalite is a good indication of the extreme
>temperature at which a rock crystallized, simply because below
>1470 degrees Celsius and above 870 degrees Celsius, tridymite (a
>polymorph of quartz) is stable and will crystallize. Below 870
>degrees Celsius, beta quartz is stable and it will crystallize.
>Since a molten rock descends through various temperatures as it
>cools, all three polymorphs can be present, confusing the issue,

This information can be found in a simple search. Since I
mention it all in my report, I think it's a little simple minded
for Ray to repeat it as though this information is something
new.

>but Ed's samples indicate a rather stable temperature in the
>1470 degrees Celsius (and up to the boiling point of silica)
>range, for a period of time far more EXTENDED than would be
>available in any surface nuclear or thermonuclear blast or,
>surely, from the crash on any alien vehicle.

How do you know? That's what I keep insisting. This site is out
of this world. There's nothing like it anywhere in the world and
I challenge Ray to find a comparable site or conditions. I'll
bet him $1000 that he can't. Put up or shut up.

>As may be deduced from the above facts, Cristobalite cannot form
>on the earth's surface, because even if the temperature became
>high enough, the temperature exposure duration and
>crystallization period would be far inadequate. Even the heat of
>a nuclear bomb cannot create cristobalite on the earth's surface
>for the very same reason. As a geographically appropriate
>example of that fact, I have several large and small specimens
>on Trinitite (Trinitite is the New Mexico desert surface fusion
>product from the earth's first nuclear bomb explosion at Trinity
>Site in New Mexico on July 16, 1945, and not a great distance
>from where Ed fantasizes a UFO crashed and formed cristobalite
>on the surface.), and it is a melt consisting of glasses of
>varying composition, depending on the mineral(s) in the melt
>(primarily from quartz). Mostly, it consists of a gray to green
>glass, and cristobalite is not present and never formed, for the
>reasons explained above.

None of the above information is at all relevant to the
cameraman's crash site. This is a true red herring.

>Cristobalite's wide spread distribution in certain types of
>volcanic rocks provides an 'abundance rating' of at least
>'common', and the rock from which the crystalline samples Ed
>sent to me grow is in fact the volcanic rock rhyolite, the
>typical rock associated with cristobalite, and some of its
>fissures contain later-formed agate. The cristobalite and
>rhyolite from Ed's site is ancient (See below.), and those rocks
>are well known in that area of New Mexico.

Of course this is all total BS. In fact BS on top of BS. The
site is exactly the way I described it: 200,000 square yards of
cristobalite covering sand, gravel, bacterial mats, huge
boulders and exposed bedrock. And those are the facts.

The widespread cristobalite is the proof for an unusual
occurrence and Ray could see for himself in a few minutes if
he'd visit the site. He'd see that what I am saying is true and
that would be the end of the discussion.

>With help of friends at USGS, the specimens Ed claimed to be
>effects of a UFO crash have now been determined to have been
>derived from one of an outcropping cluster of five overlapping
>ignimbritic calderas pretty well surface-exposed in strongly
>extended, tilted fault-block hill (as shown in photos Ed sent
>me)

Which photos are you talking about. There were no faults in any
photo I sent you. You're just arguing from authority. Right! The
USGS. Are you such a fool? Did they visit the site. Did they
have the sample tested by XRD? You don't have any idea where the
site is located. How could the USGS make such a determination?

>and mountain ranges of the central Rio Grande rift southwest
>of Socorro, New Mexico (the location Ed gives for his fantasized
>"crash site"). That Socorro-Magdalena caldera cluster is 85
>kilometers long and 20-25 kilometers wide, paralleling the
>southeastern boundary of the Colorado Plateau and the WSI-
>trending San Augustin arm of the rift.

Is that so? And you didn't think I knew this?

>The 40Ar/39Ar (isotopic) age of sanidines from the rhyolite
>ignimbrites (from which Ed's crystals grow) varies at around 28
>million years - quite a bit older than July, 1947, I'd say.
>Forget the tree-ring dating, Ed! :)

You're just so funny! Your authorities don't have the
sightest idea of what they're talking about because they
haven't visited the site.

>Over 5,000 cubic kilometers of welded ignimbrite and moat-fill
>lavas erupted in the aforementioned caldera complex. Ed happened
>upon a nice fault-related outcropping of that mass, and nothing
>more. That's certainly nothing to get excited about, unless
>you're letting your imagination run away with you after viewing
>the "Alien Autopsy" film.

If you think my imagination has run away with me, take me up on
my $1000 bet, or make it $2000 if you're so sure that I'm wrong.
That would cover the dendrochronology. I'll send my $2000 check
to EBK to hold, if we can come up with the particulars. It's
certainly better than betting your life.

>Ed's claim of finding a 'mercury engine' UFO crash site heated
>into a coating of cristobalite is not only a fiction of his mind
>as proved by the facts and dating above, but utterly impossible
>for the thermal reasons explained.

Another piece of BS. I theorize that the vehicle's engine
is rotated heat applied to a mercury core. As the heat rotates in
one direction, the mercury rotates in the opposite direction
at a much faster rate and this creates the electromagnetic
vortex that's responsible for heating the desert sand and
depositing the cristobalite.

When the craft became incapacitated, the sand (silica) was
sucked into the vortex, heated to 1450 C and then deposited at
the site when it crashed. The material was pure cristobalite,
not agate or anything else. That's why this site is so unusual.
There is no other place in the world where a person can find
tons of pure cristobalite. Remember my XRD trumps any USGS
theorizing.

>Ed, it is time you stopped broadcasting your daydreams as
>scientific fact. And don't expect me to further entertain any
>more of your fantastic claims and arguments about this and your
>pseudoscientific declarations. With the good samples you
>provided me, it was not necessary to waste my time trekking to
>the site with you and/or your brother to learn of what the
>samples consisted, but thanks for the invitation

I guess you'll send me a copy of this report so I can analyze it
scientifically and judge for myself their speculations.

>If this was ever a science with you, Ed, it has ceased to be
>that, and seems to have become a religion. I'm probably foolish
>to even get involved trying to talk to anyone filled with such
>zeal as you display concerning this, but since I will be leaving
>this list in a few days in order to be involved with some other
>UFOlogical matters, I have taken this opportunity before I leave
>to at least let receptive list colleagues hear, "...the rest of
>the story...".

I can't begin to tell you how insulting your post is. And now
you're going to cut and run like some yellow-belly coward before
the last and most important skirmish?

>As to your suggested $2,000 dating of burned trees at the
>'site', as you proposed while saying, "The best test would be
>dendrochronology..." You really are quite funny! Even if it
>could be shown that the burned trees died in 1947, that would
>provide no evidence whatsoever that the source of the burn was a
>crashed UFO. That scheme is about as poorly thought out as the
>rest of your unfounded, self-serving 'deductions'.

I thought it was a clever and scientific concept since many
trees are still alive but badly burned and the PHD
dendrochronologist I contacted said the they could determine the
exact year of the heat disruption. This report would then be
added to the other scientific and circumstantial evidence I've
accumulated.

>So, forget the tree-ring thing. The only ring that you, Ed,
>should be concerned with right now is one to constrain your
>flights of fantasy in this matter.

It's your religious conviction that the AA is a hoax that clouds
your thinking and ability to understand that I've found the
crash site the cameraman described in detail. You must visit
the site to appreciate what is there. Do we have a bet or not?


Ed







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 22

                  Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:26:21 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:10:04 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Boone


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:57:56 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:09:52 EDT
>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

<snip>

>Bravo, Brad...

>This "report" is akin to that by the "astronomer" from Kwazu-Natal
>who stated Venus was mistaken for a UFO, when in fact Venus was
>below the horizon at the time of the sighting... among other
>unscientific ruminations.

>So many experts, so little expertise.

>Kyle King

ROFL! Kyle, I say the folks down there come out with a 'Tickle
Me Varginha Alien' doll.  It'd sell big time.


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 22

                 Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Denzler

From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:44:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:13:20 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Denzler


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul >
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:40:18 -0300
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>There is something strange about some of my colleagues research
>in USA. I can tell you that I have studied most of your great
>cases, such as Roswell. I have learned English to do so and I
>have managed to spend years of reading and discussing these
>cases _before_ I ever said a word about them. Now, why don't
>some of my American colleagues do the same? They should learn
>Portuguese (or any other language that it is necessary), study
>the cases happened in Brazil more thoroughfully and read more
>about them _before_ speaking of something about them?

What!? You mean the rest of the world doesn't need to revolve
around the U.S. and the English language, even though we spend
many, many billions of dollars more on our military than anyone
else so we can whup everyone's a**es and we have been major
corporate colonizers of just about every other country on earth?
Jeesh! How... how... _un-American_! That's gratitude for you!


Brenda Denzler
Tongue planted firmly in cheek







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 22

              Re: The San Diego Comic Convention This Weekend -

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy.nul>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:18:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:03:47 -0400
Subject: Re:  The San Diego Comic Convention This Weekend -


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:57:01 -0300
>Subject: Re: The San Diego Comic Convention This Weekend

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:01:26 EDT
>>Subject: The San Diego Comic Convention This Weekend

>>It's the biggest comics/scifi/fantasy convention of the year.

>>For many of you Ufologists you've got lots of fans there both
>>amongst the public and professionals. If you have the weekend
>>off, visit and shmooze around. It's a great way to meet many
>>directors, producers, finance folks whom your publicists or
>>agents can chat with you on upcoming projects etc.

>>I'll have 3 of my own properties being represented on the floor
>>and have done production art for new films due out so I may see
>>some of you there.

>>You guys would be suprised whom your fans are and what they do
>>in entertainment and merchandising. I speak to them on a regular
>>basis and that 'UFO' debate will spring forward and we'll all
>>have a good time too.

>Wish I could be there, Greg. I could use a few yuks.

>Have fun,

Hello,Don and Greg,

I agree with Don, things are way too entirely serious. My own
comic heros were: Superman, Spiderman, and Blackhawk (I collect
the early Blackhawk comics) - love those Grumman Skyrockets!
(the only one not named after a Cat), the next skyrocket being
the Douglas DD-558ll - the one that Scott Crossfield rode to
Mach ll.

I wish that hollywood would do the Blackhawks.<sigh>


GT McCoy









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 22

                           Pilot To The Paranormal

From: Louise Lowry <SHnSASSY1.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:43:26 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:11:54 -0400
Subject: Pilot To The Paranormal


Source: The Daily Republic - Fairfield, California

http://www.dailyrepublic.com/articles/2004/07/21/news/news1.txt

07-22-04


Pilot to the paranormal - From wheat fields to the supernatural
Fairfield resident lives to explain the unexplained

By Warren Lutz

Fairfield -- Thirty years ago, Steve Moreno stood near the gates
of Travis Air Force Base, trying to come to grips with his
psychic experiences.

For the first 21 years of his life, strange things happened to
Moreno. He saw things other people couldn't. Odd weather
patterns sometimes followed him. And he couldn't control any of
it.

"It was pretty strange, because I had nothing I could really
ground with it, or relate it to," he said. "So I felt quite
different, to say the least."

Moreno had met people who had similar experiences. But that
night, as he watched the jets cut through the sky, depression
began taking root. Maybe it was all in his head.

Minutes later, as he drove toward a local pool hall, Moreno's
Dodge Roadrunner struck the center of the road and started to
flip, end over end. Stuck upside down inside his vehicle, Moreno
found himself pleading for his life.

"I said, 'Look, I'll never be depressed again,' " he recalled.
"Just let me walk away from everything."

From psychic to science

Now 49, Moreno has a successful contracting business, keeps a
tidy home on the edge of the military base, and has a wife and
two kids. He laughs easily and listens well.

He also believes in UFOs, extraterrestrials and a satellite
government. In fact, he doesn't just believe in such things. He
has proof they exist, he said.

In the nearly 30 years since his near-death experience, Moreno
has become Solano County's leading expert on all things
paranormal and supernatural. Only now, he uses only science, not
psychic ability, to explain such things as crop circles and
straying spirits.

Since his accident, "I was no longer the out-of-control
psychic," Moreno said. "I became Mr. Investigator Scientist...
and I had the best of both worlds going for me because I
already knew what being a psychic was all about."

His years of research came in handy when the largest crop circle
formation in North American history appeared in a Rockville
wheat field last year. Through Psi Applications, the nonprofit
paranormal research firm he runs from his home, Moreno collected
chaffs of wheat and networked with more experienced crop circle
researchers to explain who or what was behind the phenomenon.

"He is very dedicated investigator," said Ruben Uriarte, the
Northern California director of the Mutual UFO Network who
studied the circles with Moreno. "When phenomena occurs in his
backyard, Steve becomes a very key individual."

He set a precedent, too, Uriarte said, by setting up a live
Internet telecast from the wheat field, allowing researchers and
interested parties from around the world to see the phenomenon.

"That really opened the doors," Uriarte said. "Now other people
can witness (such events) live."

Battling closed minds

While many of the researchers he works with have academic
credentials and scientific backgrounds, Moreno is first to admit
he doesn't have either.

He rather likes it that way.

"Right now... I don't really pose any real threat to people
that are involved in the intelligence community because they
look at me and say, he's just a contractor and he's not going to
go anywhere with it."

But what Moreno doesn't know, he learns from others, said crop
circle researcher Jeffery Wilson, who describes Moreno as a
meticulous researcher.

"Steve has gone out of his way to archive just about every
paranormal thing that has ever hit the media," said Wilson, who
holds a masters degree in general science from East Michigan
University.

"Since the crop circles came down in his county last year, he
has sought out expert advice from people who have been studying
crop circles for a long time," Wilson added. "He had really gone
out of his way to learn as much as he could."

But with such work comes frustration. Hoaxes and claims of
hoaxes often provide fuel for skeptics.

Two weeks after the Rockville crop circles were found, four
teens claimed they made them out of boredom. Although they could
offer little proof, many people - and some of the media - bought
their story.

"People are afraid of what they don't know," Moreno said. "But
if it's presented to them in the right manner, I think people
are more than ready to understand there are other things that
are beyond our current paradigms of science and theology."

Recording the abnormal

Crop circles are only part of Moreno's work with the
supernatural.

For years, Moreno has investigated UFO sightings and "presences"
rumored to exist in some of Solano County's oldest buildings.

Several years ago, for example, Moreno staked out the Vallejo
Naval and Historical Museum after a employee caught something
strange on camera. Enhanced frames of the shots show two
illuminated faces looking downward.

On more than one occasion, Moreno has seen supernatural
occurrences first hand.

Several years ago, before a guest spot on the supernatural radio
program Coast to Coast, "this craft came over the house and
started doing all these gyrations," he said. "I went up on the
roof with my camcorder and that spot beam right there and
flashed at it.

"The thing stopped in mid-air and started doing all these
mutations and everything."

Moreno's tools - some of them handmade - include temperature
gauges, Polaroid cameras (for tamper-proof images), and infrared
motion detectors covered with black boxes to detect items that
don't move in front of the devices, but through them.

Psi's Web site, www.psiapplications.com, is stacked with
findings, Moreno's and others.

"All I am is just the messenger," he said. "I'm not creating any
of this, it already exists. I've just brought all this
documentation together and brought to one point."

Where we're headed

After years of research, Moreno has discovered common threads in
his findings.

He also believes the Earth's resources are quickly running out -
 but that humans could be saved by a benevolent intelligence
from beyond.

"All roads point to 2012 being the point of no return," he said.
"We'll still survive, it's not going to be like, 'lights out.'
It's going to be a slow burn in hell. All the money and all the
power in the world is not going to make a darn bit of
difference."

If people find Moreno's research and outlook strange, few share
it with him.

After the Rockville circles appeared, Moreno was a guest on the
Sacramento radio talk show Armstrong and Getty.

"They were trying to poke fun at me a little bit", he said.

They asked Moreno if he was "a nut".

"I didn't respond," he said. "I just let them sit there for a
minute. Then I said, 'Well, no, I don't think so. I think I'm a
regular person and I'm just trying to bring some information
forward.' "

Moreno often spends more than 40 hours a week running Psi
Applications. Although it's a nonprofit, he is looking for seed
money or a grant so he can work full-time on paranormal
investigations.

In fact, expanding people's views of the supernatural was part
of the deal he made with the 'source' he spoke to in the moments
after his car accident. And when he made that deal, he said, his
car door opened, and Moreno was pulled out of the wreck on his
back.

As he would many more nights ahead, Moreno found staring at the
sky.

"The stars," he said, "never looked so beautiful in my entire
life."

Reach Warren Lutz at 427-6955 or wlutz.nul


World Of The Strange http://www.worldofthestrange.com/
Para-Discussion List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Para-Discuss/








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 22

                     US Aircraft-Carrier Crew See UFOs?

From: Roy Hale <vinyl.lover10.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:59:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:15:33 -0400
Subject: US Aircraft-Carrier Crew See UFOs?


Hi All,

I found this rather interesting US Navy UFO sighting at the
FSR website:

http://www.fsr.org.uk/fsrart4.htm


Roy








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 22

                      FSR Case Histories Issues 1 - 18

From: Roy Hale <vinyl.lover10.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:04:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:18:39 -0400
Subject: FSR Case Histories Issues 1 - 18


Hi All,

An excellent selection of UFO history data from FSR, on just one
CD.

The issues 1 to 18, plus five special issues, including the
excellent and famous Humanoids issue a must for any UFO history
lover!

http://www.fsr.org.uk/ArchiveCD.htm

Scroll to the bottom page for the order details.


Roy








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 22

                 Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The

From: Brett Holman <b.holman.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:12:34 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:21:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:57:34 -0700
>Subject: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

>Could We _Really_ Be At The Center of The Universe?

>Newly published data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS),
>led by Max Tegmark of the University of Pennsylvania, shows that
>our galaxy is centered on a great concentric distribution of
>galaxies.

>The foregoing quotation is based upon an ambitious astronomical
>survey effort involving more than 200 astronomers at 13
>institutions. So far, over 200,000 galaxies have been mapped.
>The accompanying figure is a two-dimensional, wedge-shaped slice
>of this cosmic map. It pinpoints approximately 33,500
>galaxies. ...Note the rough concentricity about the earth.

>Source: http://www.sdss.org/news/releases/galaxy_zoom.jpg

>The roughly concentric distribution of galaxies about the point
>of the wedge, which is earth, is inescapable. Also readily
>apparent is a decrease in galaxy density with increasing
>distance from the earth.

The latter is easily explained: the further out you look, the
fainter the galaxies will be. So for any given sensitivity (ie
limiting magnitude), and all else being equal, a redshift survey
will see a lower space density of galaxies at greater distances.

Incidentally, selection effects like these are why one shouldn't
attempt to overturn established cosmologies based upon a single
redshift survey map of a very limited slice of the Universe in a
single plane.

>The implications of the SDSS work so far is highly unsettling
>for two reasons:

>1 - The Cosmological Principle, which demands that the universe
>be homogeneous with no favored center, is violated.

This is to misunderstand the point of the cosmological principle
- it's not intended to be an iron law - that's why it's a
"principle". It's always been clear that the principle applies
only on very large scales, if at all (otherwise all the matter
in the universe would be evenly smeared out across the Universe,
and you wouldn't get little clumps like planets and people) -
 and even then it is only an approximation. We have been aware
of clusters and superclusters of galaxies for many decades, and
of bigger structures (walls, etc) for one or two. The point is
that these should average out on the largest scales. But if
there _is_ significant inhomogeneity or anisotropy, then that's
very interesting too, because it allows us to test different
cosmologies which make predictions about these sorts of things.
That the cosmological principle's "demands" are not met simply
means that simplistic cosmologies won't do, not that we have
misunderstood redshifts etc.

And, for what it's worth, the SDSS data taken as a whole and in
conjunction with other survey results _does_ tend to confirm the
cosmological principle. The following page is the press release
which included the galaxy map in question:

http://www.sdss.org/news/releases/20031028.powerspectrum.html

It also includes a plot of density fluctuations versus scale,
and the SDSS data clearly indicates that the Universe gets
smoother at larger scales.

>2 - The earth _does_ seem to be at center of the observable
>universe contrary to the adamant philosophical declaration of
>science that the earth and its cargo are insignificant in the
>Grand Scheme of Things - whatever _that_ is!

Of course we are at the the center of the _observable_ Universe.
Where else would we be? But the observable Universe is not the
entire Universe, nor do we see everything clearly even within
the observable Universe. That's why astronomers assume our
position within the Universe is unprivileged; we've learnt the
value of this the hard way (Ptolemy onwards).

As for this supposed "declaration of science that the earth and
its cargo are insignificant in the Grand Scheme of Things", I'm
not sure why being at some supposed center of the Universe would
make us any more important. Does the value of Hamlet decrease
with our distance from the center of the Universe?

One other point.....

>(Hartnett, John; "New Evidence: We Really Are at the Centre of
>the Universe," _TJ_, 18:9, no. 1, 2004. TJ = Technical Journal.)

"Technical Journal" sounds innocent enough, but the unwary should
note that this is a creationist magazine.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/technical.asp

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/tj/TJ_v18n1.asp
--
________________________________________________________________

Brett Holman                             b.holman.nul
IT Manager, School of Earth Sciences _ IT Support, Astrophysics Group
The University of Melbourne, Victoria 3010, AUSTRALIA _ +61 3 8344 7307
http://astro.ph.unimelb.edu.au/~bholman/ _ Remember: KLAATU BARADA NIKTO








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 22

                Re: Are You Nuts? UK Perspective - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:41:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:23:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? UK Perspective - Stevenson


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:49:57 EDT
>Subject: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

>Are You Nuts? The US Govt. Wants To Know...By Force

>Abductees, watch your tales - no misspelling there.

>Here it is gang,

>On July 14th the House Appropriations Committee okayed over $20
>million clams for the President's newest caper, The New Freddom
>Commission On Mental Health (NFC).

>In other words a federally funded program to get every man,
>woman and child screened for mental illness. That's forced mind
>you, not elective.

>It's a trick to put people on psychiatric drugs that are known
>to be dangerous such as Prozac, Ritalin, etc.

>Looks like another 'Big Brother' campaign in the works.

>It's now up to the Senate and House to greenlight it and
>considering the umpteen billions of bucks to be made with this
>program by the pharmaceutical companies, it's a given they'll
>okay it and then here come the straight jackets and nets.

>There's also the 'Child Medication Act (S.1390) which is set up
>to protect you and your kids from forced medication. That's
>stalled by Ted Kennedy who says more studies are needed. Since
>Kennedy is supported by big pharmaceutical companies again we
>see the conflict.

>Since mental illness in this country is defined by one book,
>American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical
>Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) it's curious to note that there
>is no medical or scientific means to diagnose mental illness. I
>thought otherwise but they don't do chemical tests, brain scans
>etc. All these disorders are 'voted' in based on behavioral
>characteristics. Heck, if you're having a nicotine fit according
>to this book you could be locked up.

>Recently the U.K. put her foot down and banned these drugs from
>children. That was a brave and honorable thing to do.

>If you really, really want a good laugh, just read some of the
>listed 'mental illnesses'. It's funnier than 'MAD Magazine'.

>"Mathmatics Disorder" and "Caffeine Related Disorder". What the
>heck is that? You can't find a 'Starbucks' so it's off to a
>rubber room?

>No. Like I've said when looking into what happens to people who
>are abductees. I kept finding stories of psychiatric abuse from
>incarcerations to torture. We've allowed 'sanity' to be defined
>as ' going against the status quo '. If the top dog doesn't like
>the way you think or act it's drugs or a padded cell.

>Now I realize why abductees and witnesses are so reticent to
>come forward because of these horrors.

>Last night Jeff Rense had Bruce Wiseman from CCHR:
>"Citizen's Commission on Human Rights".

>http://www.cchr.org

>Last hour of his show for 7/20/04. Listen on Jeff's archives.

>What Wiseman and other watchdog folks have told me, the last
>place you wanna end up is in a psych ward. I know, I've seen
>them. I remember as a kid Geraldo Rivera broke the mold of
>journalism when he exposed these abuses at the Willowbrook
>hospital. I can't describe it.

>With the debunkers and their character assassinations not
>working anymore they'll try the old " I can't win a decent
>argument because they have the facts so let's call them crazy
>and toss em' in a psych ward " trick.

>I'm really worried that abductees will soon be the focus of a
>witch hunt and forced to take dope to cope.

Hi Greg and Listers

Just thought that if anyone lives in the UK they should know
that at present it requires the signatures of 2 Doctors to
enforce Hospital Treatment and if this occurs then treatment
cannot be refused and will be forced as necessary including
Electro Convulsive Therapy, injections, rubber room, straight
jacket etc. There is a fixed length of treatment (?) which used
to be months and assessment of condition is made before release
and or treatment term increased/decreased.

There is very little chance of release by appeal against these
decisions and treatment.

The harder you fight them the longer you stay there.

If you are considered a threat to National Security of the UK
then imprisonment without trial is also a possibility I am told.

My advise is 'Don't go there and avoid the possibility in any
way possible'.

Medical treatment of abductee's is sometimes necessary but I
advise against mentioning Alien abduction in Doctor
consultations.


Kind regards,

Colin Stevenson
http://www.colsweb.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 22

                Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:30:21 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:03:57 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Bourdais


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:16:05 -0300
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:43:20 +0200
>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>Read again your two first messages, quoting Ubirajara, and you
>>will see that you depreciated the "Doctor", suggesting that he
>>is not a reliable witness.

>>I must say that it came as a shock to me!

>Really?

>I read the message twice again just now and didn=B4t find any
>depreciation to the "Doctor".

>Please, Gildas, be more specific about where exactly it seems
>that I depreciated the man.

A.J.,

I sensed that in your first two messages, especially the second
one. Already for the first one, dated July 8, I have a global
remark to make. You brought the subject of the Doctor's
testimony, without giving any medical detail. BTW, why do you
call him the "Doctor" in quotes? To those who don't know the
story, it may suggest that he is not really a doctor.

You chose to allude to a "new detail unknown to researchers till
that time", but you did not clearly explain what you were
talking about. I gathered what it was because I know the story
directly from Dr Leir. After much hesitation and at the end of
three hours of interview, he revealed that he had an experience
of telepathic contact which deeply impressed him, with a
"spiritual" aspect to it. Without giving any details, you
pointed to the risk of "emotional alterations of a professional
before the unknown". And you wrote this : "it would be absurd to
take the detail of a supposedly psychic interaction between the
creature and the doctor as an effective signal of intelligence
of the being or - even more absurd - that the "Doctor" was in
contact with something with telepathic or similar powers".

So, Ubirajara and you decided to put in doubt and discard at
least that part of his testimony, without really explaining it.

In your second message, answering to Brad Sparks who put in
doubt the testimony, you called him "this pooor man" and
suggested to put his "new revelations" in the garbage can :

"Yes, we cannot pay any attention to this thing and take it
seriously. We should just drop at once these "new revelations"
made by that Doctor in the garbage can and forget it at all.

"Maybe, indeed, we should just come to this poor man and say at
once: "I am sorry Doctor, but I will have to dump your info in
the garbage can, UNLESS you provide an extention to your report
to the lenght and to the number of details that my American
colleagues find appropriate".

In my opinion, you raise here a condition of credibility which
practically rules out all testimonies on secret operations, with
no paper trail, no published record available. We might as well
forget about researching that sort of stories !

Maybe you tried to anticipate certain critics, when his
testimony will be fully revealed, but my feeling is that, by
doing so, you are weakening the whole Varginha case. Just look
at the reactions, here, on UFO UpDates.


Regards

Gildas







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

               Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:45:27 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:47:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Connors


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:24:45 -0700
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:51:24 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

<snip>

Ed and Ray,

OK, Ray, I'm gonna jump in here. I will be visiting the site Ed
has located sometime in late September. I will be taking
photographs and obtaining samples myself to be sent to a
specialist in ground trace material (I'm sure those samples will
be thoroughly scrutinized). Ed will accompany me to the site,
but I will take the control samples, including the burned wood.
When I receive analysis of the control samples I will report the
findings on the List. At that time I will either advise that
Ed's site should be ignored or that a team be formed for full
site work-up.

As to Ed's claim of the AA footage being authentic, I have no
opinion at this time. In regards to Ed's theory of propulsion
system used by a UFO that may have crashed on the site, I have
no opinion. But, I will take the time to at least go, look and
obtain samples. This is the least I can do for a researcher who
thinks they have found something extremely unusual based upon
their independent research.

I do not understand how all of Ed's research can be ignored if
nobody else has taken the time to observe and retreive control
samples independent of Ed's samples and research. However, just
because the samples may be unusual, etc., that itself is no
evidence of the AA footage or propulsion system theory being
authentic, but it would certainly confirm that Ed has used
materials thought to be bogus to locate the site and that the
material is such that a full team of investigators should assist
Ed in further research to determine the validity of his
research.

I have no idea of what the site looks like or what I'll find.
But, I am at least willing to go with Ed to see for myself. Ed
already knows that if I think he's off base with his research
I'll say so on this List, but if I think he may have something
worth further investigation and confirmation by others, I will
say that.


Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                 Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:55:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:49:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The


>From: Brett Holman <b.holman.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:12:34 +1000
>Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:57:34 -0700
>>Subject: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

>>Could We _Really_ Be At The Center of The Universe?

>>Newly published data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS),
>>led by Max Tegmark of the University of Pennsylvania, shows that
>>our galaxy is centered on a great concentric distribution of
>>galaxies.

>>The foregoing quotation is based upon an ambitious astronomical
>>survey effort involving more than 200 astronomers at 13
>>institutions. So far, over 200,000 galaxies have been mapped.
>>The accompanying figure is a two-dimensional, wedge-shaped slice
>>of this cosmic map. It pinpoints approximately 33,500
>>galaxies. ...Note the rough concentricity about the earth.

<snip>

>"Technical Journal" sounds innocent enough, but the unwary should
>note that this is a creationist magazine.

>http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/technical.asp

>http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/tj/TJ_v18n1.asp

Aha! I _thought_ I smelled an axe grinding. Pity the poor
creationist. He's all dressed up for a party that is, not only
NOT in his honor, but for which he never even received an
invitation. On second thought, forget the pity. There's too many
of them in the Senate and in the House. They own too many closed
institutions. They own too many radio and television stations.

alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

             Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Stockstill

From: Bill Stockstill <size14d.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:11:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:52:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Stockstill


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:49:57 EDT
>Subject: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

>Are You Nuts? The US Govt. Wants To Know...By Force

>Abductees, watch your tales - no misspelling there.

<snip>

I work in an ER and we almost always have at least 1 patient on
hold to transfer to a psych hospital. The private hospitals make
us jump through hoops before they accept them. Are they
medically cleared? Is their blood alcohol below a certain level?
What insurance do they have? Blah blah blah. If no one will take
them, the state is the last resort... if they have a bed.
Sometimes I go off shift and come back 16 hours later and a
patient is still there, locked in a room.

I can't recall anyone being involuntarily sent to an institution
for claiming to be an abductee. Being the Antichrist, yes.
Hearing voices telling them to kill, yes. Seeing things that
aren't there, yes. Cutting themselves, yes. Being abducted by
aliens, no.

To be held involuntarily you have to pose a threat to yourself
or others through actions or verbalization. Living in an
imaginary world means you can't take care of yourself so its a
reason.You can also be committed involuntarily for substance
abuse. And ANYONE (in Georgia) can file a form saying that a
person meets criteria to be involuntarily sent to a mental
institution. The local community health center then does a
preliminary investigation and if the persons needs to
involuntarily committed, they can get a court order. Many times
family members bring in people to the ER for help, thinking they
will be referred to an outpatient program, but the MD deems them
a threat and they go involuntary to an inpatient facility.

But a major problem is there are no beds. The Feds can spend the
next 20 years housing and treating the mentally ill homeless
alone. They could spend billions just on them. And they want to
screen everyone? LOL!!! They should start with the authors of
this bill.


Bill







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                 Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:30:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:55:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The


>From: Brett Holman <b.holman.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:12:34 +1000
>Subject: Re: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:57:34 -0700
>>Subject: Could We Really Be At The Center of The Universe?

<snip>

>One other point.....

>>(Hartnett, John; "New Evidence: We Really Are at the Centre of
>>the Universe," _TJ_, 18:9, no. 1, 2004. TJ = Technical Journal.)

>"Technical Journal" sounds innocent enough, but the unwary should
>note that this is a creationist magazine.

>http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/technical.asp

>http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/tj/TJ_v18n1.asp

Excellent points, Brett. The glaring fact is your last. The
article cited is indeed from a "creationist" publication. And
the title of the piece was misquoted by Mr. Colvin. The actual
title of the piece is "New evidence: we really are at the centre
of the universe". Not exactly a "scientific" title. Grand
conclusions drawn from meager data may provide fodder for the
theistically-oriented, but it isn't science.

Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                 Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:01:09 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:04:30 -0400
Subject: Re:  New Varginha Case Revelations - Sparks


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:26:21 EDT
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:57:56 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:09:52 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

<snip>

>>Bravo, Brad...

>>This "report" is akin to that by the "astronomer" from Kwazu-Natal
>>who stated Venus was mistaken for a UFO, when in fact Venus was
>>below the horizon at the time of the sighting... among other
>>unscientific ruminations.

>>So many experts, so little expertise.

>ROFL! Kyle, I say the folks down there come out with a 'Tickle
>Me Varginha Alien' doll.  It'd sell big time.


What about a "Varginha Play Doctor" doll too? They obviously
need all the medical expertise they can get.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                   Re: Are You Nuts? UK Perspective - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:12:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:15:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? UK Perspective - King


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:41:41 +0100
>Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? UK Perspective

<snip>

>Just thought that if anyone lives in the UK they should know
>that at present it requires the signatures of 2 Doctors to
>enforce Hospital Treatment and if this occurs then treatment
>cannot be refused and will be forced as necessary including
>Electro Convulsive Therapy, injections, rubber room, straight
>jacket etc. There is a fixed length of treatment (?) which used
>to be months and assessment of condition is made before release
>and or treatment term increased/decreased.

>There is very little chance of release by appeal against these
>decisions and treatment.

>The harder you fight them the longer you stay there.

>If you are considered a threat to National Security of the UK
>then imprisonment without trial is also a possibility I am told.

>My advise is 'Don't go there and avoid the possibility in any
>way possible'.

>Medical treatment of abductee's is sometimes necessary but I
>advise against mentioning Alien abduction in Doctor
>consultations.


Right Colin,

But don't say "alien abduction". Use the term "UFO Occupants".
You'll feel less demeaned in your rubber room.

FWIW, my mother spent several months in a local "sanitarium"
back in the 60s, a victim of what at the time was routinely
called a "nervous breakdown". She underwent insulin-shock
therapy, and made a couple of really nice tile ashtrays.

I imagine that just spending time making ashtrays would do many
of us a world of good, even without the insulin shock. But what
do I know? I'm the son of a crazy woman.


Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                          Secrecy News -- 07/22/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:15:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:17:52 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/22/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 69
July 22, 2004


**      9-11 COMMISSION REPUDIATES INTELLIGENCE BUDGET SECRECY
**      PROPOSED INDEPENDENT CLASSIFICATION BOARD GAINS MOMENTUM
**      TOPPLING SADDAM: A CRITICAL ASSESSMENT


9-11 COMMISSION REPUDIATES INTELLIGENCE BUDGET SECRECY

The Final Report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks
Upon the United States (the 9-11 Commission), published today,
identified overclassification as a problem requiring attention.

It will take time to read and digest the Report's full contents,
but the recommendation on secrecy immediately stood out:

"Secrecy stifles oversight, accountability, and information
sharing. Unfortunately, all the current organizational
incentives encourage overclassification. This balance should
change; and as a start, open information should be provided
about the overall size of agency intelligence budgets."
(Executive summary, p. 24).

"Recommendation: ...to combat the secrecy and complexity we have
described, the overall amounts of money being appropriated for
national intelligence and to its component agencies should no
longer be kept secret." (Section 13, p. 416).

A copy of the Final Report of the 9-11 Commission is mirrored
here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/911comm.html


PROPOSED INDEPENDENT CLASSIFICATION BOARD GAINS MOMENTUM

More members of Congress stepped up to endorse the proposal for
an Independent National Security Classification Board to review
classification disputes and instigate reforms (SN, 07/16/04).

"The current level of abuse of our classification system is so
egregious as to be laughable," said Sen. Bob Graham (D-FL).

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/graham072104.html

An independent panel "is needed in order to restore integrity
and accountability to the classification and declassification
process," said Rep. Leonard L. Boswell (D-IA), a co-sponsor of
the proposal in the House.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/hr4855-intro2.html

"Controversy lingers over whether government agencies are over-
classifying material in an effort to keep embarrassing facts
from the public," write Rebecca Carr and George Edmonson in a
Cox News Service story.

See "Lawmakers Frustrated By Delays In Declassifying Documents,"
July 21:

http://coxnews.com/cox/news/Rebecca_Carr/story/7003


TOPPLING SADDAM: A CRITICAL ASSESSMENT

The relative speed and ease of the first phase of the war in
Iraq are due in part to U.S. military prowess, but also to Iraqi
weakness, according to a critical internal account prepared for
the U.S. Army.

"The shortcomings of Saddam's military played an important role
in limiting the cost of major combat operations in Operation
Iraqi Freedom. Coalition strengths were important contributors,
but so were Iraqi weaknesses."

As a result, there are "important limitations on the Iraq War's
lessons for other defense planning challenges.... The Iraqis'
shortcomings created a permissive environment for Coalition
technology that a more skilled opponent elsewhere might not,"
according to the study Foreword.

The study, which does represent an official U.S. Army
perspective, has not been formally released.

Each page is marked "Distribution Limited: Not to be Released
Outside of the U.S. Army." A copy of was obtained by Secrecy
News.

See "Toppling Saddam: Iraq and American Military Transformation"
by Dr. Stephen Biddle, et al, Strategic Studies Institute, April
2004 (46 pages, 4.7 MB PDF file):

http://www.fas.org/man/eprint/biddle.pdf

_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                        Filer's 'Research Institute'?

From: Chris Pittman <Soccorro64.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:55:58 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:19:59 -0400
Subject: Filer's 'Research Institute'?

Hello,

My curiosity is piqued by the frequent mentions in Filer's Files
of the institution referred to as "Filer Research Institute" or
"Filer's Research Institute." Is this an actual organization,
with an office, board of directors, etc.? Is it a non-profit or
for-profit institute? Are there any paid officials of the
Institute? In what endeavors does the Institute participate? I
am wondering if anyone has ever applied for a grant from this
organization.


Chris Pittman








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                           Friedman/Shostak Debate

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:44:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:29:12 -0400
Subject: Friedman/Shostak Debate


On the topic of the debate between Stanton Friedman and SETI's
Seth Shostak last night on Coast to Coast with George Noory:

I was all set to give Dr. Shostak the benefit of the debated
doubt until he used Kal Korff as a citation, and then a lot of
his air went out for me. Kal K. Korff stacked against Stanton T.
Friedman is like warped and wormy lumber stacked against steel
beams. Dr. Shostak is in oxygen debit if he thinks "triple-K" is
remotely relevant, is in any way conversant with ufological
reality, or has demonstrated, in _any_ way, an unbiased and un-
canted balance regarding what happened at 'Roswell'. Great
suffering ZOT, Dr. Shostak!

Beyond that, Dr. Shostak was a willing poster child for
mainstream ufological denial, pretended ignorance of ufological
fact, and mainstream unwillingness to think out of the box of
the suspect status quo. His defeat, I suppose, was inevitable.

"Where is the evidence," Dr. Shostak plaintively wailed. "Why
don't we see the evidence in a museum"? Well, why don't we see
evidence of corporate chicanery in high school history
textbooks? Why don't we see evidence of alternative archeology
in these open-minded and tolerant museums alluded to by Dr.
Shostak? Why don't we see the acceptance, by the mainstream, of
the ufological evidence extant? Reactionary and unlearned denial
of the ufological is the Doctor's only hole to hide in. He has a
lot of conciliatory, albeit conflicted company in that dank and
shallow hole...

Dr. Shostak demonstrated _only_ that he was oblivious to the
_huge_ volume of extant ufological evidence of an excellence
that cannot be forever ignored. Verily, the _quality_
anecdotal evidence, compounded with the _vetted_ photographic
evidence, and then added to the _documented_ historical
evidence, gives every indication that a ufological contention
regarding that phenomena _must_ be taken seriously.

Moreover, when the preceding is framed by the _serious_ artistic
evidence, qualified by the _available_ physical evidence, and
then compellingly buttressed by the conclusively _personal_
evidence, I can only be annoyingly astonished by the continued
reluctance of people like Dr. Shostak to face the highly strange
music that just cannot be -forever- marginalized.

Does the information available justify respect from the
mainstream that is not forthcoming? Yes! The 'evidence' he cries
for is a fact to which Dr. Shostak remains, stubbornly,
oblivious. Evidence does not cease to be evidence merely because
it is denied.

Additionally, and well fleshed out in Dolan's UFOs And The
National Security State, (which Dr. Shostak was unaware of) are
the ongoing and well referenced programs of ufological denial,
dismissive-ness, and derision that the aforementioned National
Security State has prosecuted for the last 57 years with regard
to UFOs!

Fifty-seven years of cover-up, patent misdirection, and obvious
conspiracy has denigrated, destroyed, or degraded science's
ability to embrace this new challenge or to _reasonably_ credit
the available evidence in any way. It's not _lack_ of evidence.
It is lack of _willingness_ to pursue the evidence that is
there!

This readily explains the reluctance of the mainstream to come
on board! That 'evidence' for which the doctor wailed so
plaintively cannot come to light if it _inconveniences_ those
who dictate to the mainstream, who officiate the conduits of
funding and grants, and who oversee the maintenance of an
'official' giggle/discouragement factor... also denied by the
good Doctor!

Dr. Shostak was very plain that the "giggle factor" did not
really exist, and that a ufological reality would be embraced by
the scientific community if it had a "single percentage point"
of verity to it. Shostak says it would be the biggest thing in a
scientist's life. He's right about _that_!

Museums would love to display the ray-gun or star-drive he
demands as 'evidence' (?), as he blissfully disregards the
abundant evidence that _is_ there.

What bald cultural naivete is this?

This is in _direct_ opposition to Dr. Michio Kaku who gave an
opposite assessment to Art Bell just a few weeks ago on the same
program, and who said that the scientific community was _very_
fearful regarding serious interest in the ufological, even
today.

Dr. Shostak's final point was that Mr. Friedman argues his
ufological case from ignorance with regard to 'facts' and so his
assertions cannot be taken seriously for that reason. Flap-
doodle, forgetting he's the errant pot calling the stalwart
kettle black!

Mr. Friedman _might_ be arguing his case from ignorance, true
enough, but Dr. Shostak certainly argues his case from
reactionary denial, scientistic (sic) inertia, and knee-jerk
obstinacy! Some things in this multidimensional continuum of
undetected reality won't hop into Dr. Shostak's test-tube for
him. Most of reality won't, I suspect.

Dr. Shostak lost this debate by a healthy margin, anyway, as it
turned out, but when one takes into account the faulty
assumptions the Doctor made, the facts the Doctor demonstrated
that he was un-aware of, or the outdated 'conventional wisdoms'
that he employed to arrive at his conclusions - he didn't make
point one, reader! He was Mr. Friedman's "crushed opponent
driven before him", after all - and, if you listen carefully,
you can just hear the lamentations of the Doctor's women.


Read on!

PS -- Kal K. Korff?!?


alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

Content to read, content to hear, content to see.

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!



"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 29 - Elliott

From: John Elliott <townsville3.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:02:51 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:31:48 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 29 - Elliott


>From: John Hayes <John.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:52:04 +0100
>Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 29

>UFO HOVERS OVER BAKU,
>CAPITAL OF AZERBAIJAN

>    "An unidentified flying object resembling a large
>star hung over the Azeri capital (city) of Baku," on the
>western shore of the Caspian Sea, "early Monday," July 12,
>2004.
>      "The object appeared at quarter past six" in the
>morning "and it stayed there until sunrise.  Witnesses
>said the UFO was so bright that they could hardly observe
>it with their bare eyes."
>      "The UFO could be clearly seen in Baku's outlying
>suburbs of Akhmadli and Bakikhanov."  (See the newspaper
>Baku Today for July 12, 2004.  Many thanks to Jim Hickman,
>executive director of Skywatch International, for this
>report.  Don't forget to visit Jim's Web site at
>http://www.skywatch-international.org/ .)

Does anyone know if this new time of 6:15 am  is the
right time? Bbecause it used to be "before 5:00am" and alot
of good analysis here showed it couldn't be Venus.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

               Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:12:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:42:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Stanford


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:24:45 -0700
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:51:24 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>Friends on the List, that is the fantasy of a self-deceiving
>>'reporter'! In the first place, cristobalite is NOT a melt!

>It's my opinion that Ray is reacting very much the debunker in
>trying to refute my observations regarding the cameraman's crash
>site. This is what he's told me both on List and in private
>conversation, and during email exchanges: He and his wife
>watched Fox's presentation back in 1995 and both his wife and he
>thought the creature was a ridiculous fraud and both laughed
>their heads off. He's never looked at it since. One viewing, so
>much faith.

The analysis of the samples from the site that you sent me was
done without any regard for my personal opinion of the AA film.
Hard evidence can stand or fall on its own. What you sent me
proved to not be formed in the way you claimed and to have been
formed millions of years earlier.

In fact, I kept my friends at USGS 'blind' to the reason for the
analysis, so that they would not refuse to examine the samples
or in any be biased as to their interpretation of anything
unusual that might have been turned up, just as I advised (via
this list) you and any others to do when having materials
analyzed..

>So he thinks the whole AA investigation is a huge waste of time,
>and that all those who take the time to try to figure it out are
>prone to "fantasy" and "self-deceiving".

You have the cart before the horse! In the first place, I did
not even mention the AA film in my discussion, yesterday, of
your alleged physical evidence, because belief is not the
substance of objective analysis.

As usual, there you go trying to put words into my mouth. I am
delighted if objective investigators delve into the AA film, and
some of them have done an excellent job, like proving that
certain scenes in the presented version were of recent origin.
It's just that you, Ed, are so subjective about it that your
work cannot be taken seriously by those who know your history in
delving with this. I tried to give your claim of having located
a UFO crash site the benefit of a doubt in analyzing the
'physical evidence' you provided me, but it quickly was clear
that we were dealing with a completely natural situation and not
one caused by the high-temperature crash of a UFO.

Cristobalite is, by geologic and petrologic definition, a
_volcanic_ rock.

>In Ray's world this has to be so because he's convinced
>that all AA evidence must be suspect, because the footage of
>the creature is a hoax. So how could there be a secluded
>desert location covered with 200,000 square yards of
>cristobalite?

How about defining those words, "...covered with". :) I have
photos of the site you provided me and it clearly is NOT covered
with cristobalite, and you have already admitted to me in a
phone conversation that the stuff you now call cristobalite is
found only on broken pieces of rock (namely rhyolite)

"...Covered with 200,000 square yards of cristobalite...!" What
a joke. The photos you sent prove otherwise, and in fact your
description of it in that manner is an outright inaccuracy,
deliberate or else delusionary. The truth is that bits and
pieces of cristobalite-bearing rhyolite are only SCATTERED, here
and there, around the area (due to ancient tectonic break-up,
weathering, and fluvial dispersion of the original deposits),
and you admitted that to me. That does not match your latest
whole-cloth description as being "covered". Your story is
growing just like Pinocchio's nose, Ed!

>>Months ago I challenged Ed to produce for my inspection any
>>desert sand, per se, from that site that is coated with
>>cristobalite or even glass melt (which is what he originally
>>claimed it to be). Of course, he did not provide it and cannot
>>provide it, because it exists only in his fantasy of
>>misinterpretation of what he was seeing.

>Ray knows perfectly well why I never sent him a sample of the
>bacterial mats or sand covered with cristobalite. He reneged on
>our previous arrangement.

Clearly, the truth is that upon inspection of what he has, Ed
realized that he has nothing that would impress me as being sand
turned (albeit, impossibly) into cristobalite. Notice now he
completely ignores my careful explanation of how cristobalite
cannot form upon the surface.

So I say, "Come on, Ed! Quit your silly bet-offering game and
_send_ me a sample of sand with the surface turned to
Cristobalite, or hush the B.S.!" If you were right (an
impossibility for the reason I explained), you would delight in
making a fool out of me. Come on! Bring it on! You will not do
so because you cannot provide non-existent 'evidence'.

>I had requested help from the list in
>identifying the strange material and he volunteered to do so. I
>sent him the material with the understanding that he would test
>it until he found out something definitive and during our phone
>conversation he agree to do a micropix or whatever it took.

I agreed to have microprobe analysis done IF preliminary
findings warranted it. They did not. I do not ask scientists to
waste their time.

>But then Ray took another look at the material and decided it was
>agate. In fact he was so sure that he told me he'd "bet his life
>on it"; he refused to do any further testing so I consulted Dick
>Cheney and he advised me what to say. When the material was
>finally identified as cristobalite, imagine Ray's surprise.

The finding of cristobalite was highly selective, and contrary
to Ed's assertion, chalcedony (agate) was found in quite a few
areas of a sample Ed provided me. As I explained, Ed acts as
though he were Madame Curie discovering pitchblende, when in
fact cristobalite is rather common in the area where Ed found
it.

>He still hasn't gotten over it. At least he didn't kill himself. I
>understand errors in judgment and was more than willing to
>forgive him, but he never asked for ablution.

Another fiction of Ed's will-to-believe. I made no error, so
where's the beef?! LMAO. The guy is really 'half-cocked'.

>>Frankly, I exposed Ed's
>>B.S. about this many months ago.

>You exposed exactly zero. Your posts on the subject were devoid
>of content or understanding . Exactly what did you expose?

See my earlier posts when you started crowing about cristobalite
and my very clear exposure of the facts in yesterday's post.

>>Yet, like an evangelist, he
>>keeps on running off at the mouth about beliefs of having found
>>a UFO crash site, while revealing his petrological and
>>geological ignorance.

>That this point there should be some evidence, a simple
>example of my "petrological and geological ignorance." I have
>ten college units of Geology from UNM. And Ray has
>how many?

LMAO! My friends at USGS are all Ph.Ds. They say you are wrong.
Ten units in geology! Fine, but big deal?! I have no college
units in it at all, but have had to immerse myself in geology
and petrology more deeply than you had to do to get a mere ten
units, in order to do my work in paleoichnology and
paleontology, and write the scientific papers I have presented.,
on all of which I have been either the sole author or the
principal author. One, in press right now, is in a major
international scientific journal and it describes and names a
new genus and species of dinosaur track (ichnospecies) which I
discovered here in Maryland's Early Cretaceous Potomac Group,
Patuxent Formation, Aptian stage. In that paper I even provide
dating of the tracks by way of rock and clay pollen-bearing
samples I collected and had analyzed at USGS, in the absence of
proper isotopes in the local rocks. (No volcanoes were active at
the time that Maryland's Early Cretaceous dinosaurs walked the
earth leaving their tracks.) Another paper presently in
preparation, will describe the new species of dinosaur which I
personally found and its geological context -- the world's to-
date only HATCHLING nodosaur, already declared diagnostic by 28
professional paleontologists with Ph.Ds who have examined it in-
hand.

So, if you want to put me down, you've made a mistake in
comparing my geology and petrology background and resources to
yours. Oh, and by the way, just telling us you have ten units in
geology does not really tell us that you are good at geology, or
even what grades you made in those classes. :)

>>If any one of you is still willing to
>>believe Ed's harangue about this, please do a bit of
>>investigation for yourself, concerning the conditions in which
>>cristobalite forms, or else read the following:

>>Determination of the presence of cristobalite in a rock
>>constrains of the temperature range at which that rock
>>crystallized. Cristobalite forms from molten rock at
>>temperatures above approximately 1470 degrees Celsius to the
>>boiling point of silica. Please note that pressure and water
>>content will vary the crystallization range slightly, but the
>>presence of cristobalite is a good indication of the extreme
>>temperature at which a rock crystallized, simply because below
>>1470 degrees Celsius and above 870 degrees Celsius, tridymite (a
>>polymorph of quartz) is stable and will crystallize. Below 870
>>degrees Celsius, beta quartz is stable and it will crystallize.
>>Since a molten rock descends through various temperatures as it
>>cools, all three polymorphs can be present, confusing the issue,

>This information can be found in a simple search. Since I
>mention it all in my report, I think it's a little simple minded
>for Ray to repeat it as though this information is something
>new.

Of course that knowledge is not new. Did I say it was? It has
been available for years, well before you nor I got into this
discussion.

And, me a little simple-minded? People have called me a lot of
things, some good, some bad, in my 66 years, but that's a first!
Would you be willing to put your I.Q. on the Stanford-Binet test
up against mine. :) Privately, I'll be glad to tell you mine, if
you can tell me yours. :) But, there's a lot more to being able
to objectively examine things than mere intelligence quotient. A
big plus is objectivity, another is the ability to look at the
details of things. That requires not only sharp vision but
perception reasonably undistorted by belief.

>>...but Ed's samples indicate a rather stable temperature in the
>>1470 degrees Celsius (and up to the boiling point of silica)
>>range, for a period of time far more EXTENDED than would be
>>available in any surface nuclear or thermonuclear blast or,
>>surely, from the crash on any alien vehicle.
>
>How do you know?

I clearly explained how I know. I guess you ignore what you
don't want to know.

>That's what I keep insisting. This site is out
>of this world. There's nothing like it anywhere in the world and
>I challenge Ray to find a comparable site or conditions. I'll
>bet him $1000 that he can't. Put up or shut up.

Most geological sites are unique in their own particular
characteristics. Certainly the Early Cretaceous sites I study in
Maryland are quite extraordinary. That doesn't mean a UFO
crashed there. :) I could show you some fused glass in the
streambeds, but it's from early iron smelting up in Muirkirk,
Maryland, having washed downstream, and not from a UFO crash or
cosmic impact, either.

>>As may be deduced from the above facts, Cristobalite cannot form
>>on the earth's surface, because even if the temperature became
>>high enough, the temperature exposure duration and
>>crystallization period would be far inadequate. Even the heat of
>>a nuclear bomb cannot create cristobalite on the earth's surface
>>for the very same reason. As a geographically appropriate
>>example of that fact, I have several large and small specimens
>>on Trinitite (Trinitite is the New Mexico desert surface fusion
>>product from the earth's first nuclear bomb explosion at Trinity
>>Site in New Mexico on July 16, 1945, and not a great distance
>>from where Ed fantasizes a UFO crashed and formed cristobalite
>>on the surface.), and it is a melt consisting of glasses of
>>varying composition, depending on the mineral(s) in the melt
>>(primarily from quartz). Mostly, it consists of a gray to green
>>glass, and cristobalite is not present and never formed, for the
>>reasons explained above.

>None of the above information is at all relevant to the
>cameraman's crash site. This is a true red herring.

I leave that for the discerning members of this List to decide
for themselves. I love your old McCarthy era term, "red
herring". :) Your story smells as a long dead one.

>>Cristobalite's wide spread distribution in certain types of
>>volcanic rocks provides an 'abundance rating' of at least
>>'common', and the rock from which the crystalline samples Ed
>>sent to me grow is in fact the volcanic rock rhyolite, the
>>typical rock associated with cristobalite, and some of its
>>fissures contain later-formed agate. The cristobalite and
>>rhyolite from Ed's site is ancient (See below.), and those rocks
>>are well known in that area of New Mexico.
>
>Of course this is all total BS. In fact BS on top of BS. The
>site is exactly the way I described it: 200,000 square yards of
>cristobalite covering sand, gravel, bacterial mats, huge
>boulders and exposed bedrock. And those are the facts.

The truth is, as you have admitted to me, there are broken
chunks of rhyolite and cristobalite lying atop the sand, but not
thermally fastened upon it. What a self-serving distortion you
now add in gilding to your imaginary crash-site lily. What I
said is true, and the area I defined is where your site is
located. The only B.S. involved is your misinterpretation and
exaggeration. After all, you told me the approximate location of
your site, and it is right in the midst of the area I described.

>The widespread cristobalite is the proof for an unusual
>occurrence and Ray could see for himself in a few minutes if
>he'd visit the site. He'd see that what I am saying is true and
>that would be the end of the discussion.

Hey, Ed, why don't you just entice the scientific head of the
New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology to go to your site
and say that you are right? :) :) :) Word from an authority like
that would be one heck of a lot better than yours or mine! :)

>>With help of friends at USGS, the specimens Ed claimed to be
>>effects of a UFO crash have now been determined to have been
>>derived from one of an outcropping cluster of five overlapping
>>ignimbritic calderas pretty well surface-exposed in strongly
>>extended, tilted fault-block hill (as shown in photos Ed sent
>>me)

>Which photos are you talking about. There were no faults in any
>photo I sent you.

There is clear-cut evidence of the EFFECTS OF FAULTING in them.
You, again, show your ignorance of tectonics and geology!

>You're just arguing from authority.

I'd sure as heck argue from knowledgeable authority that from
what you argue, Ed. :)

>Right! The USGS. Are you such a fool? Did they visit the site.

With the samples you provided me, there was no need for them to
do so. They are professional, highly experienced geologists and
petrologists, unlike you or me.

>Did they
>have the sample tested by XRD?

One does not determine age by X-ray diffraction! :)

>You don't have any idea where the
>site is located.

False! You know very well that you told me approximately where
site is located! That is enough to locate it 'splat in the
middle' of the volcanic area where cristobalite is quite
prevalent, as described yesterday, and you know it, so quit
trying to evade the truth.

>How could the USGS make such a determination?

Again, they did not need to go to the site. Petrology and geology at work.

>>and mountain ranges of the central Rio Grande rift southwest
>>of Socorro, New Mexico (the location Ed gives for his fantasized
>>"crash site"). That Socorro-Magdalena caldera cluster is 85
>>kilometers long and 20-25 kilometers wide, paralleling the
>>southeastern boundary of the Colorado Plateau and the WSI-
>>trending San Augustin arm of the rift.

>Is that so?

Count on it. I would not have said it if it were not accurate.

>And you didn't think I knew this?

Again, your fantasy overtakes the rational mind. I said nothing
to the effect that you do not know that, but I thought it would
be nice to have it out-front for all on this list, as evidence
to consider in this discussion.

>>The 40Ar/39Ar (isotopic) age of sanidines from the rhyolite
>>ignimbrites (from which Ed's crystals grow) varies at around 28
>>million years - quite a bit older than July, 1947, I'd say.
>>Forget the tree-ring dating, Ed! :)

>You're just so funny! Your authorities don't have the
>sightest idea of what they're talking about because they
>haven't visited the site.

But you gave me samples from the _site_, and one can hardly do
isotopic testing on-site, anyhow! :) Isotopic testing yielded
the age I gave (approximately 28 mya), the X-ray diffraction for
which you pleaded could never tell us age.

>>Over 5,000 cubic kilometers of welded ignimbrite and moat-fill
>>lavas erupted in the aforementioned caldera complex. Ed happened
>>upon a nice fault-related outcropping of that mass, and nothing
>>more. That's certainly nothing to get excited about, unless
>>you're letting your imagination run away with you after viewing
>>the "Alien Autopsy" film.

>If you think my imagination has run away with me, take me up on
>my $1000 bet, or make it $2000 if you're so sure that I'm wrong.
>That would cover the dendrochronology. I'll send my $2000 check
>to EBK to hold, if we can come up with the particulars. It's
>certainly better than betting your life.

To bet you on this would be the dishonest act of knowingly
robbing you of $2,000, and I really suspect you cannot easily
afford that, Ed, because, as you told us yesterday, you do not
have that amount for a tree-ring study. It's ironic that you
offer to bet money that you don't have, and in the amount you
were soliciting from anyone who might donate it! I'm not a thief
or robber. But I appreciate the unintended compliment of your
implying that I have enough visual ability to know by just
visiting the site that you are right and enough knowledge to
settle the matter of a UFO crashing there! <LMAO!> Hey, thanks
for the compliment. :) Interesting, after your insinuation that
it is I who am geologically ignorant!

>>Ed's claim of finding a 'mercury engine' UFO crash site heated
>>into a coating of cristobalite is not only a fiction of his mind
>>as proved by the facts and dating above, but utterly impossible
>>for the thermal reasons explained.

>Another piece of BS. I theorize that the vehicle's engine
>is rotated heat applied to a mercury core. As the heat rotates in
>one direction, the mercury rotates in the opposite direction
>at a much faster rate and this creates the electromagnetic
>vortex that's responsible for heating the desert sand and
>depositing the cristobalite.

Great science, Ed! :) Where the heck did you get any evidence of
a UFO with the 'mercury engine' you describe, from that site,
from writings of ancient India perhaps? :)

>When the craft became incapacitated, the sand (silica) was
>sucked into the vortex, heated to 1450 C and then deposited at
>the site when it crashed.

Wow! Did you get that from a crystal ball or from visiting the
event in a time machine? Super science, Ed! Keep us the good
work. :) I don't have to demonstrate your foolishness and state
of delusion. You're doing a good job at that, yourself.

>The material was pure cristobalite,
>not agate or anything else. That's why this site is so unusual.
>There is no other place in the world where a person can find
>tons of pure cristobalite. Remember my XRD trumps any USGS
>theorizing.

The sample is quite a bit of 'things else', aside from the
cristobalite, which simply cannot form in the way you allege, as
I explained yesterday. Sober up and cease the B.S.. Your XRD
proves me right and your interpretation 100% impossible. It is
the volcanic product cristobalite, plain and simple, grown atop
rhyolite of the same 28 million year age.

>>Ed, it is time you stopped broadcasting your daydreams as
>>scientific fact. And don't expect me to further entertain any
>>more of your fantastic claims and arguments about this and your
>>pseudoscientific declarations. With the good samples you
>>provided me, it was not necessary to waste my time trekking to
>>the site with you and/or your brother to learn of what the
>>samples consisted, but thanks for the invitation.
>
>I guess you'll send me a copy of this report so I can analyze it
>scientifically and judge for myself their speculations.

After the results were in, and I finally told my USGS friends of
your claim, they laughed. Hearing your fantasy about a mercury-
powered UFO crash, one of them joked that he had rather get
locked into a room with The Mad Hatter (made mad from MERCURY
poisoning due to processing rabbit fur with mercury to make felt
for hats) then get involved with the likes of your claims. Have
you ever feared that you might have a bit of mercury poisoning,
messing around where a mercury-powered UFO crash happened? :)
Whooooo... I should think you would worry about that, if you
really believe what you say.

>>If this was ever a science with you, Ed, it has ceased to be
>>that, and seems to have become a religion. I'm probably foolish
>>to even get involved trying to talk to anyone filled with such
>>zeal as you display concerning this, but since I will be leaving
>>this list in a few days in order to be involved with some other
>>UFOlogical matters, I have taken this opportunity before I leave
>>to at least let receptive list colleagues hear, "...the rest of
>>the story...".

>I can't begin to tell you how insulting your post is.

It is you own claims which, disproved, insult you Ed. My post
simply reported the facts.

>And now
>you're going to cut and run like some yellow-belly coward before
>the last and most important skirmish?

Do you really think I would leave the List because of fear of
_you_ in this discussion? LMAO!

Several months ago, I clearly explained to the list that I have
other UFO maters that are important, to which I must now attend,
and which, once accomplished, will be rewarding to all on this
list (even to you, Ed) except to the 'pelicans'. You know quite
well that I went through a nearly fatal myocardial infarction in
November 2001, so I must now spend what time is left on such
matters, and not arguing further with one who deceives himself,
but, I should guess, very few others on this list.

>>As to your suggested $2,000 dating of burned trees at the
>>'site', as you proposed while saying, "The best test would be
>>dendrochronology..." You really are quite funny! Even if it
>>could be shown that the burned trees died in 1947, that would
>>provide no evidence whatsoever that the source of the burn was a
>>crashed UFO. That scheme is about as poorly thought out as the
>>rest of your unfounded, self-serving 'deductions'.

>I thought it was a clever and scientific concept since many
>trees are still alive but badly burned and the PHD
>dendrochronologist I contacted said the they could determine the
>exact year of the heat disruption. This report would then be
>added to the other scientific and circumstantial evidence I've
>accumulated.

>>So, forget the tree-ring thing. The only ring that you, Ed,
>>should be concerned with right now is one to constrain your
>>flights of fantasy in this matter.

>It's your religious conviction that the AA is a hoax that clouds
>your thinking and ability to understand that I've found the
>crash site the cameraman described in detail. You must visit
>the site to appreciate what is there. Do we have a bet or not?

That's ridiculous. I would be absolutely delighted if the AA
film were genuine. In fact, I confess having watched it with
that hope (and, thus, perhaps even with bias) in mind, but I
happen to be a very sharp observer (as proven by my dinosaur-age
track discoveries in Maryland, before paleontologists,
paleoichnologists, or anyone else, for that matter, had any
inkling they were here), and what I see in the film suggests to
me that it is a fake. Nothing religious about that, it's my
personal observation and perception of what I see in the film.
Analysis of alleged hard evidence from your alleged crash site
is another matter, entirely. On that, I had the basis for a
totally objective analysis, and that has been done.

In fact, although I asked for the samples you provided me while
suspicioning the AA film to be a fake, I happen to believe that
at least one (and maybe several) UFOs have crashed somewhere and
that the government has had at least one because I have talked
to several persons working at a Lockheed plant trying to
understand a "UFO control panel" given them for analysis in
August, 1958 (NOT 1948), and was even mildly hopeful that you
might have found evidence of such a crash site, albeit not the
alleged AA crash site. My Lockheed informants had not been privy
to the information about where the object from which they had
the seeming control panel had crashed. Their job requirements
did not necessitate their having that information, hence no need
to know. I thought that, well, maybe you had run across the
crash site, and, thus my mind was completely open to the idea
that you might have found evidence of a crash. So, Ed, trash
your B.S.ing people on this list about my analysis having been
biased by a closed mind. That's not only far out in left field,
it's just a plain old foul ball (to use baseball terms).

Show this List any bona-fide evidence that you really have the
alleged AA UFO crash site and I will be absolutely delighted and
admit that my observations of the film were mistaken. But for
now, I prefer the result of analysis of the 'evidence' you
provided me: natural volcanic material. That is real science,
and I prefer it to any tales you've offered us to this point.

I do admire your dogged persistence, Ed, but it is misdirected.
If you really believe what you are saying, get the scientific
head of the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology out
there and ask him what you're look at. Then, demonstrate
objectivity by accepting his explanation. In fact, take that
$2,000 you said you would bet me and offer to pay that
institution's scientific head to accompany you to your
'discovery' site. :) That way, we would at least get to the
bottom of this tale of yours.


Ray Stanford







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                   Two New Eastern North American UFO Maps

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:30:59 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:45:12 -0400
Subject: Two New Eastern North American UFO Maps


Hello all:

The final pair of new 3-color maps for the USA are the Eastern
sector. Again:

Blue dots = Way-back-when thru 1959
Violet dots = 20 years, 1960 - 1979 and
Green dots = 1980 to the present.

This one is the Northeast. It shows Southern Ontario & Quebec
much better than previous maps:

http://www.larryhatch.net/NESTATES.html

Finally a map of the 'Deep South':

http://www.larryhatch.net/SESTATES.html

Nearly all sightings out over the Gulf of Mexico are from the
early era (1940s-1950s)

Links on those two pages lead to other mapping work in progress.
This new menu of "Regional Maps" shows most of that:

http://www.larryhatch.net/REGMAPS.html


Thanks

- Larry









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:48:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:49:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


One thing I was at odds with during the debate:

Stan stated that "there is overwhelming evidence..."

Seth asked, "What is your BEST evidence..."

Stand said, "Well there's this..."

Seth said, "_That's_ all you've got...?"

Stan said, "Well no, there's lots more..."

Seth said, "But what's your _best_ evidence...?"

And so on.

_Not_ having one huge solid piece of evidence doesn't deny
overwhelming evidence.

Many men have been tried and sentenced based on dozens of little
pieces of evidence. Having no "smoking gun" does not spell
acquittal in every case - nor should it. Reasonable people
looking at every available piece of evidence often come to
rational conclusions without having one "knockout" piece in the
puzzle.

The Hill Star Map was mentioned. Either you think that a woman
coming up with a hand-drawn map she says she saw on a space ship
which accurately describes an existing star arrangement is
amazing evidence of ET life and UFOs, or you think it's an
interesting coincidence that this traumatized woman's
recollection manifested in scrawling a picture that just happens
to resemble a group of stars out of the entire cosmos. By
itself, it can be the smoking gun or a coincidence, depending on
your 'lens'.

If you dismiss UFO research because there's no "Single piece of
evidence which absolutely proves their existence beyond all
doubt", then you disqualify yourself from serious debate on the
subject. Any judgments you might pass on the subject must be
seen through this "lens".

Look at the evidence - as much as you can - before deciding
that it is unworthy of attention. As a man of science, and a
member of SETI, the eyes should be free of obstructions,
shouldn't they?

Hurray for both sides however. They both believe that ET life is
probable and worth researching. Their presence in our midst
elevates us all.


Kyle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                 Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:27:15 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:41:43 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Gevaerd


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:30:21 +0200
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:16:05 -0300
>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:43:20 +0200
>>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>>Read again your two first messages, quoting Ubirajara, and you
>>>will see that you depreciated the "Doctor", suggesting that he
>>>is not a reliable witness.

>>>I must say that it came as a shock to me!

>>Really?

>>I read the message twice again just now and didn't find any
>>depreciation to the "Doctor".

>>Please, Gildas, be more specific about where exactly it seems
>>that I depreciated the man.

>A.J.,

>I sensed that in your first two messages, especially the second
>one. Already for the first one, dated July 8, I have a global
>remark to make. You brought the subject of the Doctor's
>testimony, without giving any medical detail. BTW, why do you
>call him the "Doctor" in quotes? To those who don't know the
>story, it may suggest that he is not really a doctor.

Dear Gildas:

Please, bear in mind that the article was written by Ubirajara
Rodrigues, who didn't want to it be too big. Ubirajara wrote
it on my request for the 100th edition of the magazine, which
would celebrate the Varginha Case. So, the article was never
intended to be a complete, comprehensive material about the
"Doctor" claims.

About the usage of "Doctor" in quotes, it was decided to be like
that because the last thing the "Doctor" wanted was to reveal
his name and/or more details of its identity. When asked by
Ubirajara "how should we refer to you if we write down this
story?", he only said "call me 'Doctor'". Besides, using it with
quotes is a very normal thing in Portuguese. Does it sound
different in English?!

>You chose to allude to a "new detail unknown to researchers till
>that time", but you did not clearly explain what you were
>talking about. I gathered what it was because I know the story
>directly from Dr Leir. After much hesitation and at the end of
>three hours of interview, he revealed that he had an experience
>of telepathic contact which deeply impressed him, with a
>"spiritual" aspect to it. Without giving any details, you
>pointed to the risk of "emotional alterations of a professional
>before the unknown".

Once again, the article was written by someone who has been an
acquaintance of the "Doctor" for many years - Ubirajara.
It was translated by a professional translator in Brazil,
Eduardo Rado, a volunteer at the Brazilian UFO Magazine. It
wasn't me who either wrote or translated. It doesn't mean
that I don't agree with what was written, as I certainly do.

In fact, a point that Ubirajara wanted to make perfectly clear,
in his short report, was that the "Doctor" had a very emotional
reaction after what he saw on that night. Ubirajara pointed out
to me, several times - and this is very interesting - that the
"Doctor" is a down-to-earth kind of person, someone who doesn't
believe in anything that is not 100% real.

Ubirajara, and I agree, it is a confirmation that the "Doctor"
would never have an emotional reaction if faced with something
that wasn't really, really amazing. I believe that is adds to
the "Doctor"'s credibility, as he is not a gullible or easily
influenced person.

>And you wrote this : "it would be absurd to
>take the detail of a supposedly psychic interaction between the
>creature and the doctor as an effective signal of intelligence
>of the being or - even more absurd - that the "Doctor" was in
>contact with something with telepathic or similar powers".

What Ubirajara meant makes perfect sense in Portuguese, and
maybe not so when translated into English. What he wanted to
make clear was that in the situation the "Doctor" was facing,
was absurd to him - accordinfg to his standard knowledge of
Medicine and his standard set of beliefs - and yet, is was
happening.

I agree with you, by re-reading the prhase now, that it would
have been better translated to English with the use of different
words. Maybe our translator was too literal and didn't do
the meaning of the text justice.

>So, Ubirajara and you decided to put in doubt and discard at
>least that part of his testimony, without really explaining it.

Not at all, Gildas. It happened unintentionally, caused by
failure in the translation process. Sure, it was because
Ubirajara - deeply touched by the "Doctor's" story, and he
believed in him so much - that he wrote the short report to let
other people know of what he found out.

As an editor, I published the material in the magazine and had
it translated into English for the same reason: we -
Ubirajara and I - wanted to have the "Doctor's" story
disclosed and available to everyone.

Why would we publish it under the title of "New Revelations
About The Varginha Case" if we didn't believe that these such
revelations would be true? If Ubirajara had the minimum idea
that the "Doctor" was lying, he would never take Doc Leir to his
office and would never write anything about the whole thing.

>In your second message, answering to Brad Sparks who put in
>doubt the testimony, you called him "this poor man" and
>suggested to put his "new revelations" in the garbage can :

Oh, please, Gildas, read my second poste again. I was being
ironic and maybe sarcastic with Brad - in a polite way, since we
have exchanged messages for some time and I regard him to be a
very serious UFO researcher - when he refused to buy the
"Doctor's" story, based on the fact that it was very simple and
had too few details. I intended to, with irony, ask Brad if
should we just drop the "Doctor's" report in the garbage can and
simply discard it because it was too short and too little
detail for his (Brad's) standards? I believe I made myself
clear about that and the intention behind my writings. Well,
maybe I did not...

>"Yes, we cannot pay any attention to this thing and take it
>seriously. We should just drop at once these "new revelations"
>made by that Doctor in the garbage can and forget it at all.

Again, it was written in the same ironic or sarcastic tone to
Brad, as someone who confronts the person who doesn't want a
single piece of potato if he cannot have the entire soup bowl.

Do you see what I mean, Gildas? For me, it is better to have
_some_ info than _no_ info at all. I was kidding with Brad when
I wrote that. We have a saying here in Brazil: "If I can't have
an entire mulata, I don't want only her kisses". Well, I
disagree with whoever created the saying, as I would love to have
the mulata's kisses, _if_ I could not have anything else. Or
should I just forget the kisses and drop the entire mulata in
the garbage can if I cannot have a single kiss?

>"Maybe, indeed, we should just come to this poor man and say at
>once: "I am sorry Doctor, but I will have to dump your info in
>the garbage can, UNLESS you provide an extention to your report
>to the lenght and to the number of details that my American
>colleagues find appropriate".

Again, the intention of my writing was to be sarcastic. I really
thought that I had made myself clear and understood. As a matter
of fact, I wrote that message in Varginha, while visiting the
town and just after I'd discussed Brad's message with Ubirajara.
It's also Ubirajara's feeling that it is better to have some
pieces of this puzzle than have none. And we agreed with that,
because Brad - in his message - implied that just a few pieces
were too little to handle and to0 poor to consider. Understand
it now?

>In my opinion, you raise here a condition of credibility which
>practically rules out all testimonies on secret operations, with
>no paper trail, no published record available. We might as well
>forget about researching that sort of stories !

Not at all, Gildas. If it was our intention to rule out  such
witnesses as the "Doctor", why would we publish the article
under the title New Revelations About The Varginha Case? In
fact, my dear friend, the intent was exactly the opposite - to
take seriously the reports of witnesses who cannot prove
materially what they claim.

>Maybe you tried to anticipate certain critics, when his
>testimony will be fully revealed, but my feeling is that, by
>doing so, you are weakening the whole Varginha case. Just look
>at the reactions, here, on UFO UpDates.

Gildas! Me, being critic of the Varginha Case!?

A case that energically I embrace and defend?

How could I possibly weaken the case? I was the person who spoke
most about it around the worl! I lectured about Varginha in more
than 20 countries and presented the info we - the Brazilian
researchers - have about it, and compared it with the Roswell
case info, in a way to make people see that Varginha is much
more well-documented than Roswell. I even have a friend who
wouldn't speak to me any more because he is a defender of
Roswell and believes it is much more importan than Varginha,
when I think otherwise.

Gildas, I believe that you really didn't understand the sense
and tone of my previous posts.

I do indeed defend the Varginha Case as one of the greatest
cases of these Ufological times. Unlike so many tales of UFO
crashes all over the world - some more documented than others
and some absolute non-sense - Varginha is a milestone in UFO
history and is something I will die defending.


All the best...

A. J.

PS.: I miss those long conversationgs we had in Laughlin and San
Marino, with some wine on the side, when we discussed Ufology.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                           The Mothman Death List

From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:41:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:44:51 -0400
Subject: The Mothman Death List


For those interested, The Mothman Death List, examining the
links between the Mothman sightings, the 2002 Sony/Screen Gems'
The Mothman Prophecies motion picture, publications of Mothman
books, and strange, sudden deaths, has been published in the
September 2004, issue 187, of Fortean Times (pages 44-48).

The five-page spread is attractively designed to resemble a
researcher's notebook of comments, photographs, and marginal
highlights. Fortean Times did a nice presentation of the
material.

See:

http://www.forteantimes.com/mag_info/this_issue.shtml


Take care, and be safe

Loren








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:43:21 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:37:11 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Bourdais


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:01:09 EDT
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>ROFL! Kyle, I say the folks down there come out with a 'Tickle
>>Me Varginha Alien' doll.  It'd sell big time.

>What about a "Varginha Play Doctor" doll too? They obviously
>need all the medical expertise they can get.


Brad,

You really made me laugh!

You see, A.J., you shot a bullet in your foot.


Gildas








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                    'Hoax-Busting' Science Center Expands

From: Steve Wilson Sr. <Ndunlks.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:35:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:43:18 -0400
Subject: 'Hoax-Busting' Science Center Expands


Source: Center for Inquiry

www.centerforinquiry.net

07-23-04


AMHERST, N.Y. - Display cases at the Center for Inquiry hold
snake oil and other murky cure-alls, fortune-telling tools and a
bug-eyed alien in repose. Intriguing mysteries to some, to the
center they are something else: byproducts of a public too
willing to turn a blind eye to science.

For years the center and its determined hoax-busters have taken
on crop circles and ghost sightings - any and all things
paranormal.

But equally important as proving what isn't true, chairman Paul
Kurtz says, is proving what is. That's why, as the center
undertakes a major four-year expansion, there is a special focus
on getting the public to get science.

"The United States is the leading scientific and technological
power on the planet, with amazing breakthroughs, yet the general
public is basically illiterate about science," said Kurtz, 78,
founder of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of
Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) and the Council for Secular
Humanism, both housed at the Center for Inquiry.

The dangers go beyond a tendency to fall for urban legends and
Internet chain letters. More serious, Kurtz believes, is a
willingness to embrace unproven alternative medical treatments
and to reject advances like embryonic stem cell research,
opposed by many on religious grounds.

"We're concerned with cultivating an appreciation for the
scientific outlook," said Kurtz, professor emeritus of
philosophy at the University at Buffalo. "I think the United
States may very well fall behind in this kind of scientific
race."

Kurtz, his 60 employees and a who's who of fellows that have
included Carl Sagan, Betty Friedan and Andrei Sakharov, follow a
motto of applying reason and science to all areas of human life.

Nothing is off limits: The center is about to launch the Journal
for the Scientific Examination of Religion. More than a dozen
other journals and magazines are already being published, with
titles like the Skeptical Inquirer, Free Inquiry and The
Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine.

Neil Young, 20, was at the center this week, taking a class on
the ethics and politics of punishment, forgiveness and
reconciliation.

"There's no aspect of life in which critical thinking is not
beneficial," said Young, an intern at the Center for Inquiry's
Los Angeles location, one of a dozen far-flung branches that
also include New York City and Florida, Germany, Mexico, Nepal
and Nigeria.

Does he think the center can succeed with its "Science and the
Public" efforts and interpret science for the masses?

"It's a laudable goal," said Young, while acknowledging it may
be an uphill battle. "I mean, there are a lot of places where
people actually want to teach creationism instead of evolution."

The center hopes to raise $26 million in the next four years to
add on to its suburban Buffalo world headquarters.

Kurtz believes CSICOP's work, begun in 1976, has contributed to
a real drop in belief in the paranormal.

South of Buffalo, at the spiritualist community Lily Dale, where
resident psychics draw thousands of visitors for readings and
advice each year, the center's work is taken in stride.

"We always welcome people to question because by questioning
we're able to educate," Lily Dale President Sue Glasier said.
"We believe in free will so people come with open minds and they
come searching."

For Kurtz, what he calls the "planetary community" offers enough
excitement - the exploration of galaxies, medical advances and
emerging technologies. No need for science fiction or fantasy
here.

"Who needs Harry Potter?" Kurtz laughs. "The world itself is
really unbelievably enticing and mysterious and exhilarating
when you investigate it."









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:08:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:08:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:48:24 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>One thing I was at odds with during the debate:

>Stan stated that "there is overwhelming evidence..."

>Seth asked, "What is your BEST evidence..."

>Stand said, "Well there's this..."

>Seth said, "_That's_ all you've got...?"

>Stan said, "Well no, there's lots more..."

>Seth said, "But what's your _best_ evidence...?"

>And so on.

>_Not_ having one huge solid piece of evidence doesn't deny
>overwhelming evidence.

>Many men have been tried and sentenced based on dozens of little
>pieces of evidence. Having no "smoking gun" does not spell
>acquittal in every case - nor should it. Reasonable people
>looking at every available piece of evidence often come to
>rational conclusions without having one "knockout" piece in the
>puzzle.

>The Hill Star Map was mentioned. Either you think that a woman
>coming up with a hand-drawn map she says she saw on a space ship
>which accurately describes an existing star arrangement is
>amazing evidence of ET life and UFOs, or you think it's an
>interesting coincidence that this traumatized woman's
>recollection manifested in scrawling a picture that just happens
>to resemble a group of stars out of the entire cosmos. By
>itself, it can be the smoking gun or a coincidence, depending on
>your 'lens'.

>If you dismiss UFO research because there's no "Single piece of
>evidence which absolutely proves their existence beyond all
>doubt", then you disqualify yourself from serious debate on the
>subject. Any judgments you might pass on the subject must be
>seen through this "lens".

>Look at the evidence - as much as you can - before deciding
>that it is unworthy of attention. As a man of science, and a
>member of SETI, the eyes should be free of obstructions,
>shouldn't they?

>Hurray for both sides however. They both believe that ET life is
>probable and worth researching. Their presence in our midst
>elevates us all.


Good points there Kyle.

I too listened to the debate twice. I had thought the debate was
to be about SETI's procedures and technologies not whether
aliens were visiting Earth.

So when Shostak asked about the evidence it sounded like he was
looking for 'proof' not 'evidence'. The best evidence to date
are the statistics. The sheer volume of reports that go across
the demographics including witnesses. Physical evidence has to
have the science of examination and professional interpretation.
Phenomena that can be re-examined and duplicated. It boggles
the mind, the amount of witness reports of interaction. There's
also the volumnous data from official sources worldwide. We're
down to that old song "Is you is, or is you ain't my baby? "

The debate went all over the place but it shows how scientists
debate. I love this stuff! I've seen scientists of the highest
credentials duke it out like in a western bar over the simplest
issues. Yet when the dust clears they settle down and the common
denominators emerge and then it's off to a snort or two of a
fine brandy.

A two hour radio show with call-ins is nowhere near the time
needed to address this issue. What was of amazement to me is I
learned more about what SETI does and that they're not pigeon
holding themselves to one means of detection and communication.
I used to joke about radio as a means to see if ET was out there
because what if they didn't have ears?

So all in all a good time was had. We got to hear about
reference material so we could go to the websites and order the
papers written on the subjects at hand. That's what's important.
Getting the paperwork from the sources so that we can study from
fact.

So to me the best evidence is:

Everybody and their third cousin twice removed is still coming
out of the woodwork with 'UFO/Alien' stories and the issue keeps
growing.


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

               Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:37:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:11:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Stanford


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:45:27 -0600
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:24:45 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:51:24 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

><snip>

>Ed and Ray,

>OK, Ray, I'm gonna jump in here. I will be visiting the site Ed
>has located sometime in late September. I will be taking
>photographs and obtaining samples myself to be sent to a
>specialist in ground trace material (I'm sure those samples will
>be thoroughly scrutinized). Ed will accompany me to the site,
>but I will take the control samples, including the burned wood.
>When I receive analysis of the control samples I will report the
>findings on the List. At that time I will either advise that
>Ed's site should be ignored or that a team be formed for full
>site work-up.


Hi Wendy,

Please advise us of what particular scientific discipline your
"specialist in ground trace material" belongs, of his or her
professional qualifications, and inform us of whether he or she
is a crop circle 'researcher'.

I hope you can understand my skepticism when any term as
inexplicit as "specialist in ground trace material" is used.

Why don't you just come out and tell us what you mean by that?
I can see why you would use veiled terminology if referring to
a crop circle 'expert'. :)

If you don't get any material you collect to a scientist in a
pertinent area of scientific discipline and with no UFOlogical
or crop circle axe to grind, then you are wasting your time and
risking generating one more unfounded myth.

And, as I advised Ed long ago, any materials should be submitted
to any analyst 'blind', with no discussion of the background Ed
attributes to the materials.

But, good luck, best wishes, and be careful not to get mercury
poisoning. :)


Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                    UFO Over Rojas Buenos Aires Province

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:58:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:15:03 -0400
Subject: UFO Over Rojas Buenos Aires Province


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
July 23, 2004


Source: Semanario Colon Doce
Date: 07.23.04

http://www.colonbuenosaires.com.ar/semanariocolondoce/cgi-bin/hoy/


Flying Saucer over the Region

Jorge P=E1ez says that in the early hours of last Thursday morning
he saw a strange object in the sky, adding that his wife and son
were also witnesses.

Rojas resident  Jorge P=E1ez,  who lives in the La Loma district,
claims having seen an unidentified flying object (UFO) that was
heading east of Rojas "behind some wilderness at the dog race
track" parallel to Route 188.

"The time was approximately 6:00 a.m. when I was coming home
from work and saw a flying saucer that approached and
departed... a light that became increasingly larger before
vanishing and appearing again [somthing it did] for some ten
minutes, easily," he indicated.

"I left work and was on my way home, and I looked at as it came
up, since I saw it from far away, from behind the trees in the
wilderness of the dog race track," he said. "It came up from
behind the eucalyptus trees."

"My kid has a spyglass and I was looking [at it] through it. It
was as like a red ball that changed colors, becoming white,
yellow...that moved in what appeared to be circles. It did that
for about ten minutes then vanished," P=E1ez said. "I was startled
by what they were saying about 25 de Mayo (where a UFO
supposedly appeared) and they spoke about the cold, and it was
very cold last night. I saw it clearly."

"I'd never seen anything like it before. I woke up my wife and
the kid so they'd see it. The kid didn't want to get up at first
because he thought it was a lie. I woke him up so that he'd see
it, and he also saw it."

"It looked like a light the size of the moon. That's all I saw",
he ended by saying.


Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                   Re: Origin Of The Term 'Grays'? - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:02:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:19:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Origin Of The Term 'Grays'? - Allan


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:51:59 -0300
>Subject: Re: Origin Of The Term 'Grays'?

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:33:18 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Origin Of The Term 'Grays'?

>>>From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:13:55 -0700
>>>Subject: Origin Of The Term 'Grays'?

>>But I have heard claims that 'EBE' is actually much more recent,
>>being invented by Paul Bennewitz c.1980. Can anyone shed any
>>light on this? Have any of Bennewitz's writings been found to
>>contain 'EBE'? If so, can we have source and date, please?

>>If and when such evidence is discovered, and it pre-dates
>>December 1984, it will put the final nail in the coffin of the
>>MJ-12 affair (much to Stanton Friedman's dismay) since it will
>>establish, finally, that the Eisenhower paper is a 1980s
>>forgery.

>What peculiar reasoning. One would think that the words
>extraterrestrial and Biological and Entity came from some far
>out unused language!

The words taken individually are not rare or unusual, even for
1947. However, it would be far too much of a coincidence for
someone else to take exactly the same words and combine them
into the same abbreviation (EBE), independently, some 35 years
later.

In view of Dr Bronk's eminence as an aviation physician, I
assume he produced numerous papers. A search of these might (and
it is a very big 'might') turn up the use of 'EBE'. What a
enormous boost to MJ-12's authenticity that would be.

But I won't be holding my breath.

>Let us look at research not proclamations.

Exactly. You may like to try the research I have suggested
above. You can't lose, since if 'EBE' is not discovered it will
prove nothing. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,
is it?


Regards,

CDA








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:16:37 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:23:07 -0400
Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations - Bourdais


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:27:15 -0300
>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:30:21 +0200
>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:16:05 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:43:20 +0200
>>>>Subject: Re: New Varginha Case Revelations

>>>>Read again your two first messages, quoting Ubirajara, and you
>>>>will see that you depreciated the "Doctor", suggesting that he
>>>>is not a reliable witness.

>>>>I must say that it came as a shock to me!

>>>Really?

>>>I read the message twice again just now and didn't find any
>>>depreciation to the "Doctor".

>>>Please, Gildas, be more specific about where exactly it seems
>>>that I depreciated the man.

>>I sensed that in your first two messages, especially the second
>>one. Already for the first one, dated July 8, I have a global
>>remark to make. You brought the subject of the Doctor's
>>testimony, without giving any medical detail. BTW, why do you
>>call him the "Doctor" in quotes? To those who don't know the
>>story, it may suggest that he is not really a doctor.

>Please, bear in mind that the article was written by Ubirajara
>Rodrigues, who didn't want to it be too big. Ubirajara wrote
>it on my request for the 100th edition of the magazine, which
>would celebrate the Varginha Case. So, the article was never
>intended to be a complete, comprehensive material about the
>"Doctor" claims.

<snip>

>In fact, a point that Ubirajara wanted to make perfectly clear,
>in his short report, was that the "Doctor" had a very emotional
>reaction after what he saw on that night. Ubirajara pointed out
>to me, several times - and this is very interesting - that the
>"Doctor" is a down-to-earth kind of person, someone who doesn't
>believe in anything that is not 100% real.

>Ubirajara, and I agree, it is a confirmation that the "Doctor"
>would never have an emotional reaction if faced with something
>that wasn't really, really amazing. I believe that is adds to
>the "Doctor"'s credibility, as he is not a gullible or easily
>influenced person.


A.J. and the List,

Thank you very much for this clarification, which is quite
welcome, at least for me. Let's say that there was a serious
misunderstanding, which we can now put to rest.

As for those who prefer to sneer and laugh, let them do it.

<snip>

>All the best...

>A. J.

>PS.: I miss those long conversationgs we had in Laughlin and San
>Marino, with some wine on the side, when we discussed Ufology.

Yes, we had some good time and good talk together!
Let's not forget that.

Best to you,

Gildas







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                 Kal Korff MSN Chat Sept '97 On Billy Meier

From: Bill Stockstill <size14d.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:25:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:26:05 -0400
Subject: Kal Korff MSN Chat Sept '97 On Billy Meier


I promised this awhile ago.This is a chat that I did (as
TheSaint) with Diana Botsford in 1997 on MSN's now
defunct UFO Forum.

Bill Stockstill

-----

Host Diana_UFO says:
Hi Mark! Welcome to the Briefing Room for Project:
watchfire and the UFO Forum. Join us on tonight at
6:00pm, PT for a chat with Kal Korff to
discuss Billy Meier, hoaxes and the future of Ufology.

Host TheSaint says:
Tonight's guest is Kal Korff, Ufologist and the author
of two critically-acclaimed books, "The Roswell UFO
Crash: What They Don't Want You to Know" and
"Spaceships of the Pleiades: The Billy Meier Story".

Host TheSaint says:
His Spaceships book is the ONLY UFO title ever
published that is endorsed by BOTH UFO believers
and skeptics. It is also the ONLY UFO book ever
endorsed by NASA.

Host TheSaint says:
"think tank" which includes scientists, technicians,
philosophers, and Kal K. Korff (San Jose, CA) is
President and CEO of Total Research, a historians
dedicated to studying humankind's most enduring myster

Host TheSaint says:
ies and phenomena.

Host TheSaint says:
Korff conducted the most thorough examination
ever into the case of Billy Meier and all its alleged
evidence, revealing how a one-armed, handicapped
Swiss farmer hatched and continues to maintain the
most elaborate UFO hoax in history.

Host TheSaint says:
Recent critics, however, have claimed that Korff's
research and book(s) are filled with inacuracies and
jumps in logic.

Host TheSaint says:
Kal, thank you for joining us tonight.

Host KalKorff says:
Glad to be here!

Host KalKorff says:
ga

Host TheSaint says:
There's a ton we could cover here tonight, but I
think we need to cut to the chase and ask the
question on alot of people's minds right now when it
comes to Kal Korff.

Host TheSaint says:
Kal, are you a debunker?

Host KalKorff says:
No I"m not.

Host KalKorff says:
And those who claim I am are very wrong.

Host KalKorff says:
I've been a UFO researcher for nearly 25 years.

Host KalKorff says:
I believe the subject is worthy of study

Host KalKorff says:
but we have to be careful

Host KalKorff says:
I state in both books that I am not a debunker

Host KalKorff says:
and I"ve even had a UFO sigthing.

Host KalKorff says:
So those who declare me a debunker are really
wrong.

Host KalKorff says:
When I study a case

Host KalKorff says:
I'm after the truth

Host KalKorff says:
and I don't care

Host KalKorff says:
unlike other researchers what the truth turns
out tobe

Host KalKorff says:
I simply want that truth

Host KalKorff says:
And not all UFO cases turn out to be Alien spacecraft.

Host KalKorff says:
ga

Host TheSaint says:
How do individuals figure out what to believe, what
to put aside and what needs further probing in
order to get at 'the truth'?

Host KalKorff says:
You need to

Host KalKorff says:
be able to independently verify to a degree

Host KalKorff says:
anyone's claim

Host KalKorff says:
My Meier book is the only one of 15 that has footnotes.

Host KalKorff says:
A fact is a fact and

Host KalKorff says:
anyone should be able to double check it.

Host KalKorff says:
SO the key is to be able to

Host KalKorff says:
challenge anyone's claims

Host KalKorff says:
and make sure the data can be verify

Host KalKorff says:
And then you should have some answers.

Host KalKorff says:
This is probably one of the main problems

Host KalKorff says:
of Ufology that it is practiced by people who are too

Host KalKorff says:
emotional in the issue and not objective

Host KalKorff says:
sometimes planly dishonest.

Host KalKorff says:
ga

Host TheSaint says:
On the Billy Meier story, you were sitting in the
US - Meier was in Switzerland. What motivated
you to put together the expense and go
through the risk of going undercover in the
Semjasse compound
over there to investigate?

Host KalKorff says:
When the book Lightyears came out

Host KalKorff says:
I thought the case might have something to it

Host KalKorff says:
and so many years passed by

Host KalKorff says:
and no one wanted to settle the issue one

Host KalKorff says:
way or another

Host KalKorff says:
so I felt obligated to go over there as I
mentioned in the book

Host KalKorff says:
and see what I could find

Host KalKorff says:
and when I found all the smoking guns
that I could find in the case

Host KalKorff says:
which was more than I expected as a
researcher in my wildest dreams

Host KalKorff says:
I felt morally obligated to write up the data

Host KalKorff says:
If I had found alot less data,

Host KalKorff says:
I probably would not have written the book

Host KalKorff says:
I felt compelled.

Host KalKorff says:
The only reason I went undercover is because
I was concerned
that I would be harmed.

Host KalKorff says:
It was made very clear to them, as I mention
in the book,

Host KalKorff says:
that if I went there as Korff,

Host KalKorff says:
I would have been harmed.

Host KalKorff says:
If the case wasn't so corrupted, with so many
people lied to,

Host KalKorff says:
I wouldn't have been so interested,

Host KalKorff says:
someone had to stand up and call it out - no
matter what the situation was.

Host KalKorff says:
I'm sad that it turned out not to be real,

Host KalKorff says:
but that's Billy Meier's problem and those
who support the cult.

Host KalKorff says:
ga

Host TheSaint says:
Can you into a little detail as to what
exactly was the environment
you went under cover into, what
was going on.

Host KalKorff says:
The Meier people

Host KalKorff says:
were interested first and foremost in money.

Host KalKorff says:
And until I agreed to give them a little over
a thousand american dollars,

Host KalKorff says:
I couldn't get very far.

Host KalKorff says:
They then wanted to recruit me and they
tried to indoctrinate me

Host KalKorff says:
into their religino and that Meier is the
messiah and that he is the
prophet that has been

Host KalKorff says:
chosen by the aliens to lead humanity

Host KalKorff says:
into the next century.

Host KalKorff says:
They were adamant and Meier has stated this

Host KalKorff says:
That everyone who has claimed to be abducted
is a liar

Host KalKorff says:
and that he is the only one.

Host TheSaint says:
Not the impression one got from Lightyears

Host KalKorff says:
It reeked as a cult going in, it seemed like a cult
while I was there

Host KalKorff says:
and it still is a cult.

Host KalKorff says:
And in order to live there you have to

Host KalKorff says:
give 10% of your income, work in the fields

Host KalKorff says:
attend prayers and rituals and

Host KalKorff says:
agree to indoctrinate people

Host KalKorff says:
and they make your name and address or
they'll kick you out

Host KalKorff says:
so they can try and recruit you.

Host KalKorff says:
I was shocked to find

Host KalKorff says:
that thousands of people from all over the
world come to Meier's
place and believe

Host KalKorff says:
this nonsense.

Host KalKorff says:
They've made a ton of money.

Host KalKorff says:
I was shocked to find that this Meier cult leader

Host KalKorff says:
was not a poor uneducated Swiss Farmer.
clancy has joined the conversation.

Host KalKorff says:
We've been led to believe this by people like
Gary Kinder who
wrote Lightyears and Meier's supporters.

Host KalKorff says:
ga

Host TheSaint says:
OK, well lets look at his claims. Meier's
claims include the fact that t
he Pleiadians ahve left behind physical e
vidence to prove their existence
in the form of landing tracks and mineral samples.

Host KalKorff says:
I cross examined all of the physical e
vidence in the case.

Host KalKorff says:
I present in the book

Host KalKorff says:
all the analysis that have been done

Host KalKorff says:
and for the first time ever

Host KalKorff says:
in the book, Marcel Vogle is proven to be
a fraud

Host KalKorff says:
He wasn't even a doctor.

Host KalKorff says:
His field of expertise was not in metallugry.

Host KalKorff says:
And the sample he claims could not be made on
earth conveinetly disappeard.

Host KalKorff says:
T
here are numerous examples of him lying and cheating.

Jenny_UFO says:
?
Host KalKorff says:
I don't like to speak this way about people,
but Vogel was a fraud in relation to
his work on the Meier case.

Host KalKorff says:
I don't know about his otehr work but he was a brillant
matierals scientist for
IBM but he was not a metallurgist.

Host KalKorff says:
The burden of proof
Host KalKorff says:
regarding the Meier evidence rest on the
shoulders of
Meier's promoters who
claim the

Host KalKorff says:
evidence is provable.

Host KalKorff says:
And the fact is that nothing has been proven accuarte

Host KalKorff says:
And I'm the only person, for reasons that Meier's
 promoters have not explained, that got

Host KalKorff says:
the soil samples to see if there was really anything
excoitc about them
and the truth is that nothing was.

Host KalKorff says:
I snuck on Meier's property at night to get those
samples.

Host KalKorff says:
No one is allowed to get to those landing sites.

Host KalKorff says:
I believe as I show in the book,

Host KalKorff says:
that Meier used round pieces of pressed board

Host KalKorff says:
to fake the landing tracks

Host KalKorff says:
and I show in the book

Host KalKorff says:
how one can make identical tracks with press
board.

Host KalKorff says:
And ironically

Host KalKorff says:
in the hill right above his house

Host KalKorff says:
are huge pieces of press board

Host KalKorff says:
because there is a missle silo above his house.

Host KalKorff says:
It doesn't prove that that's where he got it

Host KalKorff says:
but when I found out he grows his own trees, it
made me
realize that that's why the trees disappear in his

Host KalKorff says:
photos all the time. What a coincindence.

Host KalKorff says:
ga

Michael says:
Kal - What's your opinion on Randy Winters and his
views?

Host TheSaint says:
Most of the pro-Meier books contain a great
quantity of photographs of
saucers and the like. Col. Wendelle Stevens in
particular - known for his
large collection of UFO photographs - seems to
really believe that these
are genuine photos of the genuine article.

Host TheSaint says:
Your book, on the other hand, shows us blow
ups of some of these photos
with a clear indication of wires, double exposures
and other simple FX tricks
that were utilized to create his photos.

Host TheSaint says:
But he still has a large following. What's your opinion
of why?

Host KalKorff says:
I don't get into motviation because I can't
scientifically document it

Host KalKorff says:
I can speculate and I want to address that
this is just speculateion

Host KalKorff says:
We are at a cross roads in our species today.

Host KalKorff says:
We have Milennial madness going on

Host KalKorff says:
which has happened before.

Host KalKorff says:
Depending who you ask,

Host KalKorff says:
we're either going to die in a nuclear holocaust,

Host KalKorff says:
or Jesus is going to come and save us,

Host KalKorff says:
or the aliens are going to save us

Host KalKorff says:
or we're going to enter the age of Acquairus and
brotherly bliss.

Host KalKorff says:
These cult leaders exploit the vulnerabilities of
people

Host KalKorff says:
they try to dictate their lives,

Host KalKorff says:
as does Diletttso and Stevens,

Host KalKorff says:
use the Meier photos

Host KalKorff says:
because they are pretty

Host KalKorff says:
although it's pretty hard to take a ugly
picture in Switerzland.

Host KalKorff says:
They use those photos to suck you in

Host KalKorff says:
to take your money

Host KalKorff says:
to take their twisted philosophies and suck you.

Host KalKorff says:
The Meier case presents hundreds of movies, photos,
witnesses,
landing tracks, dogfights with aircraft,

Host KalKorff says:
about the only thing it doesn't deliver is a crashed
saucer like Roswell.

Host KalKorff says:
The list I just gave you is why it was accepted.

Host KalKorff says:
And to be honest,

Host KalKorff says:
the promoters of this scam

Host KalKorff says:
from Meier to Stevens have

Host KalKorff says:
done a good job of marketing it

Host KalKorff says:

But if the UFO field were more grounded in
critical thinking,

Host KalKorff says:
the case would have gotten no where.

Host KalKorff says:
And we need critical thinking now more than
ever as we are trying

Host KalKorff says:
to redefine who we are as a species and where we're
going in the next
century.

Host KalKorff says:
The Cold War is mostly behind us and the whole
planet is drifting as to
where are we going

Host KalKorff says:
what are we doing

Host KalKorff says:
and some introspective issues that face and affect us
all need to be
consdiered.

Host KalKorff says:
And if we are not careful with all the issues that
confront that are
independent of the UFO issue

Host KalKorff says:
there is ample evidence that if we don't change the
way we do business as a species

Host KalKorff says:
then the next century coming up could be our last.

Host KalKorff says:
I'm not preaching gloom and doom.

Host KalKorff says:
I'm just pointing out that with everything happening i
ncluding the rise
in cults, suicides, overpopulation,

Host KalKorff says:
cutting down the rainforests,

Host KalKorff says:
we're in trouble if we don't change.

Host KalKorff says:
And during these vulnerable moments when we can least
afford to
make mistakes,
Host KalKorff says:
these cult exploiters take advantage of us during these
tiems.

Host KalKorff says:
And cults tend to flourish around the end and beginning
of centuries.

Host KalKorff says:
ga

Host TheSaint says:
His wife, Kalliope Meier, has now left him. I understand
she recently
testified about the Meier cult. What can you tell us
about her testimony.

Host KalKorff says:
She tesitifed under oath, in the divorce,

Host KalKorff says:
that she helped fake some of the evidence

Host KalKorff says:
including helping him build UFO models.

Host KalKorff says:
The Meier cult has denounced her as a
evil vicious women.

Host KalKorff says:
Someone who has no intelligence.

Host KalKorff says:
Yet when she was still married, she was
trolled out as one of the witnesees

Host KalKorff says:
which don't exist really.

Host KalKorff says:
They are all current or former members of the cult.

Host KalKorff says:
They harrass her.

Host KalKorff says:
They intimadate her,

Host KalKorff says:
now she's starting her life over.

Host KalKorff says:
Hopefully they'll quit attacking her - I don't
evny her position.

Host KalKorff says:
What she has said confirms what is in the
book and what

Host KalKorff says:
anybody who looks at this case critically

Host KalKorff says:
has also discovered.

Host KalKorff says:
ga

Host TheSaint says:
I'd like to ask one question and then
open up the floor...what is the
timeline on all this? (when did he start
with the UFO pictures and t
hen go on to the cult)

Host KalKorff says:
He started his first UFO pictures when
he was in India as a con
artist in the 60's early 70's.
H
ost KalKorff says:
It was only after he returned to
Switerzerland to serve his time
after deserting the French Foreign Legion
and

Host KalKorff says:
after loosing his left arm in an accident

Host KalKorff says:
and unable to provide for himself and his family

Host KalKorff says:
that he placed an ad in a magaxine

Host KalKorff says:
to start a metaphysical study group

Host KalKorff says:
he was looking for people who were interested
in New Age issues.

Host KalKorff says:
Got a group together

Host KalKorff says:
MAny of which run his cult today stlil - this is 75

Host KalKorff says:
1975

Host KalKorff says:
One day tells the group

Host KalKorff says:
that he's in contact with aliens.

Host KalKorff says:
He thens starts producing pictures to

Host KalKorff says:
show the group.
Host KalKorff says:
And those that didn't believe him left.

Host KalKorff says:
And those that stayed behind - many of
them runs his business and cult today.

Host KalKorff says:
Meier takes no more pictures.

Host KalKorff says:
He now channels the information.

Host KalKorff says:
I asked them why and they said a 1000
pictures is enough - how many
do you neec?

Host KalKorff says:
need?

Host KalKorff says:
He stopped taking pictures in the 80's.

Host KalKorff says:
As the book concludes, the very first
photos he took, which Meier
cult people will say are real,

Host KalKorff says:
prooves that they are all hoaxes, as are
the last pictures and all the others.

Host KalKorff says:
All the photos promoted by the promoters
are the cream of the crop.

Host KalKorff says:
They don't publish the ones wher eyou can see the
strings.

Host KalKorff says:
They don't publish the Venus pictures, that all
show to be hoaxes.

Host KalKorff says:
And the copies of the photos that Meier's promoters
have are not as good as the one's I got.

Host KalKorff says:
That does explain some of the promoters failures

Host KalKorff says:
but

Host KalKorff says:
that only excuses a couple of percentage points.

Host KalKorff says:
For all practical purposes, they are guilty and they
know it of actively
promoting a fraud for the'[

Host KalKorff says:
purposes, in part, of monetary gain.

Host KalKorff says:
If you ask Meier, for what it's worth,

Host KalKorff says:
that he never got a lot of the money that was
promised to him by the
promoters.

Host KalKorff says:
I do not know whether it's true or not and
somebody got the money
and it's been a lie over the years.

Host KalKorff says:
ga
Host TheSaint says:
there outta be a law, ok Jenny's got a question
then we'll go to Michael

Jenny_UFO says:
You say this cult is still in existence. Is it in Switzerland,
worldwide, or where?

curly says:
?

Host KalKorff says:
The headquarters is in Switzerland

Host KalKorff says:
about

Host KalKorff says:
a little over a hour drive from Zurich in the mountains.

Host KalKorff says:
There are other branches in other parts of the world.
oscar says:
?

Host KalKorff says:
Couple are in California, Russia,
Host KalKorff says:
because like all cults they exploit social unrest so
Russia is a target.

Host KalKorff says:
I got a letter from one of the guys who ran it in Japan.

Host KalKorff says:
Who translated Meier's writing to Japanese.
Host KalKorff says:
Because of the revelations in my book, he
quit the cult as have several others.

Host KalKorff says:
They didn't like me before but after the book
came out, they like me even less.

Host KalKorff says:
If I"m wrong,

Host KalKorff says:
and they're telling the truth,

Host KalKorff says:
they should be able to disprove my work and
shouldn't be so upset.

Host KalKorff says:
ga

Host TheSaint says:
Michael go for it

Michael says:
I'll go next...

Mark says:
?

Host TheSaint says:
Curly, be nice :-) and ask your question

curly says:
Mr Korff-Do you see a "heavens gate" type of future in
store for the cult and its members?

Host KalKorff says:
Excellent question.

Host KalKorff says:
Yes,

Host KalKorff says:
and I hope to god I'm wrong.

Host KalKorff says:
If Meier doesn't start producing miracles or
provide some truth that he is

Host KalKorff says:
the Messiah as he claims

Jenny_UFO says:
?

Host KalKorff says:
then I'm afraid that he is going to take his core
followers down with him.
curly says:
thanks mr korff

Host KalKorff says:
My fear is based on the fact that in
Switzerland there have been
several cults in the past two years

Host KalKorff says:
that have gone up literally in flames.

Host KalKorff says:
Some of those people

Host KalKorff says:
have connections to the Meier cult

Host KalKorff says:
and going back

Host KalKorff says:
to 1977

Host KalKorff says:
Meier and another self proclaimed
messiah have been jockeying
for power in the Zurich region where they both live.

Host KalKorff says:
When cult leaders which are usually out there anyway
- that is not grounded in relatity

Host KalKorff says:
start to loose their illusions they tend to take
everyone with them

Host KalKorff says:
What makes the Meier case a cult and not a simple
UFO contact case

Host KalKorff says:
is that they try to dictate to you how to live your life

Host KalKorff says:
what to believe in

Host KalKorff says:
what to eat

Host KalKorff says:
how much money you should spend

Host KalKorff says:
and they even try to regulate how many
kids you can have.

Host KalKorff says:
And this is stuff that the Meier promoters don't
tell you

Host KalKorff says:
and the only way youlearn this is to go over
there - which most won't
- or if you

Host KalKorff says:
take up their wish to learn german and read their
literature.

Host KalKorff says:
The case borne no reselmablance to what I
believed was the truth.

Host KalKorff says:
This is why again, why I felt morally obligated to
investigate the case.

Host KalKorff says:
I try to take you there and see what I saw from
both in the US and
while I was there undercover for saftety and secuirty
and integrity
of the investigation reasons.

Host KalKorff says:
ga

Host TheSaint says:
Michael are you ready or are we going to Oscar?

curly says:
thank you

Michael says:
Randy Winters did go over there and has bought into
this hook line and
sinker...what is your opinion on Randy's position? As
 far as the pictures
go, if one has been shown to be a fake, I have to
discount all of them.
Keep in mind though that discrediting campaigns by
debuckers do occur...
His greatest strike against him is probably his
ex-wifes testimony.

Host KalKorff says:
Yes and no/.

Host KalKorff says:
He's ex wife's testimony is not science.

Host KalKorff says:
I guarantee you tha tthe photos in my book and
how they are
analyzed is science

Host KalKorff says:
Randy Winters has not bought the case - hook
line and sinker.

Host KalKorff says:
I debated Winters a couple of months ago and he
admited

Host KalKorff says:
a couple of months ago that the case is a cult and
that was the main reason he left the group.

Host KalKorff says:
He also acknowledges that several of the photos are fakes

Host KalKorff says:
and this debate is a matter of public record.

Host KalKorff says:
I was presently surpised that Winters finally coped to the
truth to some degree on the Meier case.

Host KalKorff says:
Years ago, Randy wouldn't confess to any of this

Host KalKorff says:
so much to his credit he is coming clean.

Host KalKorff says:
I hope I can debate him in the future

Host KalKorff says:
because unless someone asks the right questoins

Host KalKorff says:
Winters and promoters will duck and dodge the truth.

Host KalKorff says:
Winters has never met a UFO photo he didn't like.

Host KalKorff says:
Only when I showed him the Venus photos that were
really from NASA even he had a problem with them.

Host KalKorff says:
But Wendelle Stevens likes to pretend and he won't
show you any obvious fakes.

Host KalKorff says:
I got a copy of Steven's oringal photo book that contains
the dinosaur and venus photos.

Host KalKorff says:
Wendelle knew this was a hoax but still published this stuff.

Host KalKorff says:
You see in my book these pictures - including the pages
from Wendelles' original manusciprt

Host KalKorff says:
It prooves that they have massaged the data, manipupated
the data to hid the truth.

Host KalKorff says:
You don't make a lot of money

Host KalKorff says:
writing books that expose cases as hoaxes.

Host KalKorff says:
You do make lots of money with coverups, prettty pictures,
sightings.

Host KalKorff says:
The public is more interested in what looks good
versus what is good.

Host KalKorff says:
A good example is wathcing TV all night.

Host KalKorff says:
Channel surf.

Host KalKorff says:
We must have hundreds of pyschics running around.

Host KalKorff says:
Do we honestly believe we have that many?

Host KalKorff says:
The fine print states for entertainment purposes only.

Host KalKorff says:
That's to protect themselves from lawyers.

Host KalKorff says:
They're in for the money and as long as you pay
they'll talk to you.

Host KalKorff says:
It's getting to the point where even channels like
Discovery and other prestigous channels are pushing

Host KalKorff says:
pyschic commericals.

Host KalKorff says:
Sorry for the tangent. ga

Host KalKorff says:
ga

Michael says:
I've met with Randy on two seperate occasions.
At the time he was pushing his books, which made
me question his perspective. I'm glad to hear that
Randy is open to new facts and opinions. I appreciate
your input and the work you've done here.

Host TheSaint says:
oscar it's your turn then we'll go to Mark

oscar says:
What would be the perfect photo of a UFO? I mean
the actual true photo of a UFO. And if it was true
what would you do with it?

Host KalKorff says:
Michael - thank you.

Host KalKorff says:
The ideal UFO photo

Host KalKorff says:
is either a single image taken undre scientific controlled
conditions

Host KalKorff says:
with many cameras or lab conditions, lens and film used
of various

Host KalKorff says:
types.

Host KalKorff says:
And hopefully it's more than one picture.

Host KalKorff says:
Keep in mind that photography has a limitation.

Host KalKorff says:
Let's say that you analyze a UFO photo and you don't
 find any sign of hoax.

Host KalKorff says:
It's still not a sure bet unless it's taken under scientific
conditions.

Host KalKorff says:
It could be a model dropped out a plane.

Host KalKorff says:
Or it could be as the governmeent now claims that

Host KalKorff says:
we previously though might be aliens

Host KalKorff says:
could be from planes - test jets

Host KalKorff says:
models dropped out a plan,

Host KalKorff says:
secret govt planes.

Host KalKorff says:
That's why in order to eliminate the unknwon factor
these images have to be

Host KalKorff says:
captured in scientific condicitons or in an
evnironment where it can
only be the only answer.

Host KalKorff says:
For instance.,
Host KalKorff says:
a spy sattelite capturing a photo of a UFO
around the moon,

Host KalKorff says:
might be the real thing.

Host KalKorff says:
I use to work on the Star Wars project


Host KalKorff says:
the government is making and experimenting with
saucer shape crafts.

Host KalKorff says:
It's an interetsing pattern that has emerged.

Jenny_UFO says:
Where these people in any way involved with the s
uicides in Switzerland a couple of years ago?

Host KalKorff says:
LAst year in Australia in the day time for the first time ever the
dominate shape

Host KalKorff says:
of UFOs reported was black triangles

Host KalKorff says:
not saucers.
H
ost KalKorff says:
I would submit to you that these are likely government operations.

Host KalKorff says:
The govt has admitted that for decades that they have used the
cover of UFOS so they can carry out there missions.

Host KalKorff says:
That is why we must cross examine govenrment's role

Jenny_UFO says:
Sorry hit the enter

Host KalKorff says:
in what they have reported.

Host KalKorff says:
Because I can not cross examine aliens but I can cross examine
the governmetn

Host KalKorff says:
That is why I am working with the major media and a select few
Ufologists for the govt to come clean about what they know.

Host KalKorff says:
I'm not out to danger national secuirty.

Host KalKorff says:
But there is a way that they can tell us that it was one of ours
so we can clear the air.

Host KalKorff says:
Otherwise the govt becomes it's own worse enemy.

Host KalKorff says:
It's a visious cycle it needs to end.

Host KalKorff says:
On Nov 2, on the Discovery channel airing two documentaries
on Area 51 and the pheonix lights that were a combination of
military flares, black trinagles out of Nevada
curly has joined the conversation.

Host KalKorff says:
Tehre's no one explaination of what happend in Pheonx - it's a
hodgepodge.

Host KalKorff says:
I'm in the those documentaries in order to put pressure on the
govt to come clean on the role in misleading the people in what
was then but not now valid secruity messages.

Host KalKorff says:
ga

Host TheSaint says:
go ahead Mark then Jen (uh hum)

Mark says:
Is Meier really as illiterate as some of his followers claim?
Hard to believe in a country like Switzerland.

oscar says:
I'm glad we got people like you on our side. thanks

Host KalKorff says:
Thanks Oscar.

Host KalKorff says:
I apprecaite it very much.

Host KalKorff says:
No - he's not illeterate.

Host KalKorff says:
I show a interview in the book with people in a bookstore
where Meier has an account.

Host KalKorff says:
They told me that he reads everything.

MerryOtter says:
q

Host KalKorff says:
He's a bookworm - even buys books on trick photography.

Host KalKorff says:
He has a formal 6th grade education but has more than made
up for it while he was dropping in adn out of jail.

Host KalKorff says:
The claim that hes' a poort farmer.

Host KalKorff says:
He is not illterate but the promoters push this because it
sounds better if the witness is dumb fat and happy and
couldn't pull off a hoax with just one arm.

Host KalKorff says:
ga

Host TheSaint says:
go now Jen

Jenny_UFO says:
Are this cult anything to do with the recent suicides in
Switzerland/france?

Host KalKorff says:
Yes there are some connections

Host KalKorff says:
If you read earlier in the log, we've gone over that.

Host KalKorff says:
ga

Host TheSaint says:
Your turn MerryOtter and I think this will wrap it up.

MerryOtter says:
Kal, what do you think the government could
say/do/disclose that would
convince the majority of Roswell believers that
there was nothing going on?

MerryOtter says:
(i know some people will never be convinced)

Host KalKorff says:
The govt needs to confront the Roswell issue straight up and

Host KalKorff says:
call a spade a spade per se

MerryOtter's profile: Another buttermilk drinker from Seattle.

Host KalKorff says:
the govt could use some lessons - espcially the air force -
in public

Host KalKorff says:
relations 101

Host KalKorff says:
Look at the Crash Test Dummies report.

MerryOtter says:
didn't they try that already? (as best the government can?)

Host KalKorff says:
It doesn't say it was all due to taht.

Host KalKorff says:
When the press conference was held, that's why they said in 30
sec sound bytes.

Host KalKorff says:
And that's what the media reported without thinking critically.

Host KalKorff says:
The officer, who gave the briefing, didn't even read the report.

Host KalKorff says:
The govt needs to start taking the american's concerne seriously.
Otherwise they are not worthy of the office that they hold.

Host KalKorff says:
That's why I'm leading the path to get this changed.

Host KalKorff says:
I guarantee you that when the govt starts getting calls from tehse
reporters, they can' avoide them

Host KalKorff says:
That's when it will get very interseting.

MerryOtter says:
do you think the government has any artifacts? real ones? maybe
not from
roswell, but from something else?

Host KalKorff says:
That's when it will get very interesting.

Host KalKorff says:
The govt admits that it still has UFO data that stays classified and

Host KalKorff says:
we need to know why that's thec ase and we need to get them
to work within the consititution and what makes this country great.

Nancy_UFO says:
?

Host TheSaint says:
Kal, could you go over a little more of what you were doing with
"Star Wars" so we get a better handle on your area of expertise.

Host TheSaint says:
and then we'll go to nancy

Host KalKorff says:
As I mention in both my books, I've done everything

Host KalKorff says:
from help design large computer networks and infrastructures for
war scenarios

Host KalKorff says:
to weapons design

Host KalKorff says:
when I was 14

Host KalKorff says:
I designed as a science project

Host KalKorff says:
as nuclear weopon design
Host KalKorff says:
entered it in a science fair and won 1st and 3rd place.

Host TheSaint says:
education?

Host KalKorff says:
And because Lawrence Livermore Lab was nearby

Host KalKorff says:
and my best friend - he's dad worked there - I got in trouble

Host KalKorff says:
bec caue my design had an uncanny resemblance to a device later
known as the neutron bomb.

Host KalKorff says:
So I have done work for my country when asked.

Host KalKorff says:
I have helped the govt find terrorist groups assests to help design
some weopons myself.

mib says:
UFO isn't that Ultra high Fregentcy Observation satellites

Host KalKorff says:
Becuase I don't know what I can't do - that's why I have been all
over the map.

Host KalKorff says:
I've done alot of different things but I"ve always been obssed with
knowlege espcialy what I don't know - which is alot.

mib says:
isn't that why a lot of documents are blacked out

Host TheSaint says:
very interesting....also MIB has pointed out a reason why perhaps
docs are blacked out

Host KalKorff says:
That's why I do all these different things.

Host KalKorff says:
390 kisi;jdf;oijkdsk kwihi I

Host TheSaint says:
huh?

Host KalKorff says:
The press has covered it since I was in high school.

mib says:
ok

oscar says:
?

Host KalKorff says:
I made th efirst page of the Mercury news when I was hired
at the lab to work at STar WArs

MerryOtter says:
i think the government scrambled on of your transmissions, kal :)
H
ost KalKorff says:
and I was told and warned to stop being in the media.

Host TheSaint says:
:-)

MerryOtter says:
(one of mine, too)

Nancy_UFO says:
Because there has been constant accusations of govt coverup
 in the past
and now, do you have any idea why the establishment media
does not
go after this like they have with other govt coverups?

Host KalKorff says:
Ok - this is the last question.

Host TheSaint says:
I'd like to address the UFO acronym also before we quit

Host KalKorff says:
I don't know why the media has become so brain dead.

Host KalKorff says:
That is why I'm working with a select group of reporters that are
from the old school.

Host KalKorff says:
I'm hoping that I can take advantage of the dumbing down of the
media once these movers and shakers get things going - the
entertainment media will get interested.

Host KalKorff says:
We saw this happend with pheonix in june and july

Host KalKorff says:
never mind that the sightings happend earlier.

Host KalKorff says:
Everyone jumped on the band wagon.

Host KalKorff says:
I hope to duplicate that forumlae.

Host KalKorff says:
If the govt blows off my reporters - it will be headlines -
if they reveal it will be headlines.

Host KalKorff says:
That is why I'm optimistic in getting new data.
wtj has joined the conversation.

Host KalKorff says:
I'm looking forward to it no matter what happens.

MerryOtter says:
aren't aliens more interesting than military flares, though?

Host KalKorff says:
If anyone would like to contact me, my email address is
Host KalKorff says:
totlresrch.nul

Host KalKorff says:
Mib can you repeat your question and than I need to go
- sorry.

mib says:
The UFO acronym

Host KalKorff says:
Yes?

Host TheSaint says:
UFO = Ultra high Frequency Satellite Platform

mib says:
isn't it Ultra high Fregency Observation satellite

Host TheSaint says:
and that is a reason so many "UFO" docs are classified

Host KalKorff says:
Those initials don't match UFO.

Host KalKorff says:
There's no one explanation to explain the phenomena.

Host KalKorff says:
We have to take each case on it's individual merits.

Host KalKorff says:
This seems to be lost on many researchers and certainly a
majority of the authors.

Host KalKorff says:
They try to make it black and white and the truth is that
most of the world is some shade of grey.

Host TheSaint says:
thanks so much for being here tonite, Kal
T
Host KalKorff says:
It was good to be here!

Host KalKorff says:
Thanks very much.

Host KalKorff says:
I have really appreciated this!

mib says:
Thank you Kal

curly says:
thanks for speaking with us mr korff

oscar says:
thanks!!!!

Host TheSaint says:
you must come back some time and get us up-to-date

Mark says:
Thank you sir.

MerryOtter says:
what's your book title again, mr. korff?
Host Diana_UFO says:
You can read more about Kal's book at
http://forums.msn.com/UFO

Good bye and much thanks!







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                     Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:28:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:27:49 -0400
Subject: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer


While most contactee books from the 50s can be had for a
pittance, Van Tassel's "I Rode A Flying Saucer" seems to command
outrageous prices. A copy went on Ebay the other day for $496!:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=268&item=6912970193&rd=1

Two copies come up on Bookfinder.com for $800 and $1500 (sic)!

Anyone hazard a guess as to why this particular contactee book
is considered so valuable by some?


Dante







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

              Re: 'Hoax-Busting' Science Center Expands - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:18:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:31:37 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Hoax-Busting' Science Center Expands - Myers


>From: Steve Wilson Sr. <Ndunlks.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:35:07 EDT
>Subject: 'Hoax-Busting' Science Center Expands

>Source: Center for Inquiry

>www.centerforinquiry.net

>07-23-04

>AMHERST, N.Y. - Display cases at the Center for Inquiry hold
>snake oil and other murky cure-alls, fortune-telling tools and a
>bug-eyed alien in repose. Intriguing mysteries to some, to the
>center they are something else: byproducts of a public too
>willing to turn a blind eye to science.

>For years the center and its determined hoax-busters have taken
>on crop circles and ghost sightings - any and all things
>paranormal.

>But equally important as proving what isn't true, chairman Paul
>Kurtz says, is proving what is. That's why, as the center
>undertakes a major four-year expansion, there is a special focus
>on getting the public to get science.

<snip>

>For Kurtz, what he calls the "planetary community" offers enough
>excitement - the exploration of galaxies, medical advances and
>emerging technologies. No need for science fiction or fantasy
>here.

>"Who needs Harry Potter?" Kurtz laughs. "The world itself is
>really unbelievably enticing and mysterious and exhilarating
>when you investigate it."

Yeah, _when_ you actually do investigate it. Hey, how about
using part of that $24 million to send someone out in the field
to do an investigation.....

I think the debate with Friedman and Shostak shows just exactly
how much investigation these 'skeptics' are really doing.
Friedman brought up some analysis on soil from a trace case and
Shostak, without even having examined the case, wrote it off as
someone possibly pouring water concentrated with salt in a
perfect circle. Hey! Now that's science! Please...


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                Re: Filer's 'Research Institute'? - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:40:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:33:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's 'Research Institute'? - Stanford


>From: Chris Pittman <Soccorro64.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:55:58 EDT
>Subject: Filer's 'Research Institute'?


>My curiosity is piqued by the frequent mentions in Filer's Files
>of the institution referred to as "Filer Research Institute" or
>"Filer's Research Institute." Is this an actual organization,
>with an office, board of directors, etc.? Is it a non-profit or
>for-profit institute? Are there any paid officials of the
>Institute? In what endeavors does the Institute participate? I
>am wondering if anyone has ever applied for a grant from this
>organization.


Hi Chris,

Thanks, for pointing a finger of suspicion at where it belongs.
I think you will find that the "Filer Research Institute" is
just as imaginary as all the ancient carvings and letters of a
terrestrial alphabet that Filer perceives in almost every Mars
photo that comes along. I notice that Filer announced his
'Institute' at the time he released to the media his alleged
evidence of ancient, intelligent life in JPL's Mars images. :)
Maybe he felt the media would swallow his claims more easily if
he appeared to be with a research organization, albeit one with
his own name.

Oh, by the way, Socorro is misspelled as "Soccorro" in your
email address, unless there's someone else using it that way
with the correct spelling and you had to default with a
misspelling. I'm, of course, presuming your use of it refers to
the Socorro in New Mexico because of the use of 64, the year of
the famous landing there.

Anyhow, I think you're onto something that should be pointed
out, with your posting.


Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

               Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:15:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:36:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - White


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:49:57 EDT
>Subject: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

>Are You Nuts? The US Govt. Wants To Know...By Force

<snip>

>I'm really worried that abductees will soon be the focus of a
>witch hunt and forced to take dope to cope.

>Greg

We "mind control", electronic harassment and gang stalking
targets have been through just this situation for years.

Basically, I advise newly aware colleagues to _avoid_ discussing
_any_ of their anomalous experiences if they find themselves
face to face with the thought police. I don't see how an
abductee can be forced to talk about their abduction
experiences.

The one stumbling block is the MMPI (Minnesota Multiphasic
Personality Inventory) or similar "there-is-no-wrong-answer"
questionnaire. These are multiple choice tests and will not
force an abductee to discuss their abduction experiences.

Abductees facing a mandatory MMPI, which is impossible to defeat
since there is no way to tell which is the "right" answer, might
want to have a private psyCHOlogist give one to them first, to
find out if there are any "land mines" in it.

One small clue is, and this is a question on the MMPI, "strange
smells" is one you don't want to admit to. That one seems to
attract negative vibes from the Great Ones who know all about
the human mind.

Beyond that, I would advise really worried abductees to look up
and pay a retainer to a mental health defence lawyer. I did
this, and she found me a local psychiatrist who, very
untypically, was entirely honest. She gave me a clean bill of
mental health before I began to picket about the covert
electronic and conventional stalking attacks. That would be
_very_ handy to have already done when forced testing comes to
your neighbourhood.

I could never have located that honest psychiatrist on my own.

Since most lawyers allow a 30 minute free interview, one can
"window shop". It's not that hard, by a bit of asking around,
helped by the local law society, to locate those lawyers who
have mental health as a sub-specialty.

Just some words of advice from some folks who have "been there".


Eleanor White








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - White

From: eleanor.nul
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:27:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:37:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - White


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:24:45 -0700
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

<snip>

>So he thinks the whole AA investigation is a huge waste of time,
>and that all those who take the time to try to figure it out are
>prone to "fantasy" and "self-deceiving".

One thing that came to mind, when I read how impossible it was
for sufficient time and temperature to appear above ground to
form cristobalite, was that crop glyphs are said to have
scientifically verified transition states in the stalks which
are supposed to be impossible within present state of science.
 I'm not sure, but that may also be true of the minerals just
below the stalks inside the glyphs.


Eleanor White








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                        UFO Believer To Visit Library

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:12:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:12:43 -0400
Subject: UFO Believer To Visit Library




Source: The Sentinel - Brunswick New Jersey

http://ebs.gmnews.com/news/2004/0722/Front_Page/047.html

07-23-04

UFO Believer To Visit Library

OLD BRIDGE =97 Skeptical? Scared? Just plain curious?

However you feel about flying saucers, stop by the Old Bridge
Public Library on July 28 at 7 p.m. and you=92ll hear a detailed
account from a true believer.

George Filer, a retired U.S. Air Force major, said that he
encountered his first unidentified flying object while piloting
an air tanker over England in 1962. Today, he is the East Coast
director of the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), the nation=92s largest
UFO-related organization.

In his lecture, which is geared toward adults, Filer will cover
such topics as whether there is life on Mars and whether UFOs
are truly real. The presentation will run for about 90 minutes,
with a chance for questions at the end.

Filer=92s lecture is part of a series of events at Old Bridge
Library this summer under the theme "Discovering New Trails."

The presentation is open to the public, and, thanks to the
Friends of the Old Bridge Public Library, is free of charge.

The library is located at the corner of Route 516 and Cottrell
Road. For more information, call (732) 721-5600 or check the
library=92s Web site at www.lmxac.org/obpl.

=97 Jacquelyn Lane








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

              Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Denzler

From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:31:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:50:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Denzler


>From: Bill Stockstill <size14d.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:11:54 -0400
>Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:49:57 EDT
>>Subject: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

>>Are You Nuts? The US Govt. Wants To Know...By Force

>>Abductees, watch your tales - no misspelling there.

><snip>

>I work in an ER and we almost always have at least 1 patient on
>hold to transfer to a psych hospital. The private hospitals make
>us jump through hoops before they accept them. Are they
>medically cleared? Is their blood alcohol below a certain level?
>What insurance do they have? Blah blah blah. If no one will take
>them, the state is the last resort... if they have a bed.
>Sometimes I go off shift and come back 16 hours later and a
>patient is still there, locked in a room.

>I can't recall anyone being involuntarily sent to an institution
>for claiming to be an abductee. Being the Antichrist, yes.
>Hearing voices telling them to kill, yes. Seeing things that
>aren't there, yes. Cutting themselves, yes. Being abducted by
>aliens, no.

>To be held involuntarily you have to pose a threat to yourself
>or others through actions or verbalization. Living in an
>imaginary world means you can't take care of yourself so its a
>reason.You can also be committed involuntarily for substance
>abuse. And ANYONE (in Georgia) can file a form saying that a
>person meets criteria to be involuntarily sent to a mental
>institution. The local community health center then does a
>preliminary investigation and if the persons needs to
>involuntarily committed, they can get a court order. Many times
>family members bring in people to the ER for help, thinking they
>will be referred to an outpatient program, but the MD deems them
>a threat and they go involuntary to an inpatient facility.

>But a major problem is there are no beds. The Feds can spend the
>next 20 years housing and treating the mentally ill homeless
>alone. They could spend billions just on them. And they want to
>screen everyone? LOL!!! They should start with the authors of
>this bill.

Bill, they don't want to _hospitalize_ us. They want to
_medicate_ us. No doubt the pharmaceutical companies were strong
supporters of this effort.

And maybe, as an added benefit above and beyond the increased
revenues for the drug companies, they can also manage to find
and "medicate" anyone who, for instance, might dissent from the
policies and practices of whoever is in office.

Stranger things have happened.


Brenda Denzler








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

               Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:44:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:53:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Shell


>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:28:42 -0400
>Subject: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

>Anyone hazard a guess as to why this particular contactee book
>is considered so valuable by some?


Hey, maybe they're true!








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

               Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:48:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:55:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Shell


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:15:53 -0400
>Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

>Abductees facing a mandatory MMPI, which is impossible to defeat
>since there is no way to tell which is the "right" answer, might
>want to have a private psyCHOlogist give one to them first, to
>find out if there are any "land mines" in it.

>One small clue is, and this is a question on the MMPI, "strange
>smells" is one you don't want to admit to. That one seems to
>attract negative vibes from the Great Ones who know all about
>the human mind.

Yeah, the MMPI has quite a few of those land mines in it, hidden
under a pile of boring questions.I sometimes wonder if the test
isn't boring to purposely make you let your guard down and start
answering questions without thinking about them too much.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                  Re: Filer's 'Research Institute'? - Filer

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:58:26 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:58:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's 'Research Institute'? - Filer


>From: Chris Pittman <Soccorro64.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:55:58 EDT
>Subject: Filer's 'Research Institute'?

Hello,

>My curiosity is piqued by the frequent mentions in Filer's Files
>of the institution referred to as "Filer Research Institute" or
>"Filer's Research Institute." Is this an actual organization,
>with an office, board of directors, etc.? Is it a non-profit or
>for-profit institute? Are there any paid officials of the
>Institute? In what endeavors does the Institute participate? I
>am wondering if anyone has ever applied for a grant from this
>organization.


Hi Chris,

No one is paid, and the organization is anyone who provides
information that prefers to remain anonymous. Some even claim to
be Winners of the Nobel prize.

On the Internet it is difficult to trace people and their claims.

It is not a non-profit organization, although it has never made
a profit. We have asked for grants but never recieved one. Do
you have any ideas?


Regards,

George filer








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

               Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:15:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:00:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Hall


>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:28:42 -0400
>Subject: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

>While most contactee books from the 50s can be had for a
>pittance, Van Tassel's "I Rode A Flying Saucer" seems to command
>outrageous prices. A copy went on Ebay the other day for $496!:

>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=268&item=6912970193&rd=1

>Two copies come up on Bookfinder.com for $800 and $1500 (sic)!

>Anyone hazard a guess as to why this particular contactee book
>is considered so valuable by some?


Dante,

I hesitate to speculate on why peoples' minds are so often
clouded with cobwebs. What I will say is that I have copies that
I will gladly sell for  1/4, 1/5, or 1/6 of those asinine
prices.


 - Dick









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 23

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Rosati

From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:29:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:02:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Rosati


I felt that there was a failure to distinguish between two
different questions/issues:

One is "are there unidentified objects flying around in the
earth's skies?" This should be uncontroversial, based on 50
years of reports, radar evidence, etc.

The other question "are these alien craft?", is a completely
different question, and here the evidence is not necessarily so
conclusive.

It wasn't clear if Shostak would agree to the simple reality of
the first question, since it seemed like the unstated assumption
was always "if there are unidentified objects flying around,
then they must be alien craft," which is not at all necessarily
the case.


Dante











   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

                   Alien Behavior In St. Stephen Hayfields

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:30:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:30:57 -0400
Subject: Alien Behavior In St. Stephen Hayfields




Source: CBC New Brunswick

http://nb.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=3Dnb_cropcircles20040723

07-23-04


Alien Behavior In St. Stephen Hayfields

St. Stephen  =97  The St. Stephen border crossing has seen its
share of illegal aliens over the years, but a rash of crop
circle sightings in a Charlotte County hayfield this week is
raising questions about a different kind of alien.

On first inspection the hayfield looks like any other,
undisturbed and ready for cutting, but then there are signs
something's happened here.

In places the hay appears to have been pushed down, even formed
into designs and patterns. There's no earthly explanation of
what might have done it, unless you count the person walking
around in snowshoes, or maybe a little girl stepping on a big
board to squash down the tall grass.

There's actually no mystery at all. Several groups from
southeastern New Brunswick are trying their hand at making crop
circles this week, part of a fundraiser for the Ganong Nature
Park.

One design is a giant spider, and it's proving to be a lot more
work for Art Mackay than whatever hocus pocus aliens might use.

"Let's just say my hips will not be working as well tomorrow
morning as they were this morning," MacKay says.

The crop circles here are fakes to be sure, but organizers say
they were inspired by a real crop circle that appeared in the
same field two years ago.

Tina Spires was on the ground for the discovery of the original
circles, a picture of them is still on display at the website
for the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network.

http://www.cccrn.ca/


"It was right about here stretching about 50 metres," Spires
says. "It was three circles each growing two metres in diameter
and there were lines connecting them. It was about two years ago
in August."

It's not clear who, or what, was responsible for creating the
circles, but most people concede they were likely fakes, created
by park staff on a lark.

Fakes they might have been, but that hasn't dampened anyone's
enthusiasm for flattening some more hay in tribute.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

                           Accused Shooter Saw UFO

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:41:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:41:26 -0400
Subject: Accused Shooter Saw UFO




Source: The Journal Register - Philadelphia

http://www.dailylocal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12463912&BRD=1671&PAG=461&dept_id
=17782&rfi=6

07-24-04

Accused Shooter Saw UFOs

West Chester -- The attorney representing the man accused of
shooting two sheriff�s deputies began to lay the groundwork for
an insanity defense for his client.

Walter J. Rosengarth, 64, allegedly wounded the officers who had
arrived at his home on the 400 block of Pierre Drive in East
Marlborough on July 24, 2003, to serve him with an eviction
notice. After the shooting, Rosengarth barricaded himself into
his residence during a three-and-a-half-hour standoff with state
police.

On Friday, his attorney, Christian J. Hoey, filed a motion at
the Chester County Courthouse to determine Rosengarth�s criminal
responsibility.

Next, Common Pleas Court Judge Howard F. Riley Jr. will decide
whether the defendant will get a hearing to determine if he was
criminally insane at the time of the shooting.

If he is found to be insane, Rosengarth will be acquitted of
criminal responsibility. He would be committed to a mental
hospital and the case would not go to trial.

If Riley denies the hearing request or the hearing takes place
and determines the defendant was criminally liable, the case
will go to trial. Rosengarth could still enter an insanity plea
at that time.

Hoey�s motion included three written evaluations supporting his
claim that Rosengarth was insane at the time of the shooting --
 two from psychologist Gerald Cooke and two from psychiatrist
Dr. Robert L. Sadoff.

Cooke described Rosengarth as experiencing "paranoid
schizophrenic psychotic delusions" during the incident.

"He did not appear to be hallucinating," Cooke wrote in a letter
to Hoey on Jan. 12, "but was acting under the belief that he was
the victim of a conspiracy ..(I)t is my opinion that because of
his paranoid delusion, he did not know what he was doing was
wrong."

Sadoff reached a similar conclusion.

"Although he appears to be competent to proceed (to trial) in
that he does know the nature and consequences of his legal
situation and can work with counsel in preparing his defense,"
Sadoff wrote in a Feb. 9 letter, "it is my opinion that he would
be in a stronger position had he the benefit of treatment and
improvement in his psychotic condition."

Rosengarth told both analysts stories about being poisoned by a
neighbor, suffering from cancer though he never had been
diagnosed and seeing a UFO hovering near Kennett Square.

"He looked up, saw the UFO and said a prayer that the UFO would
reverse itself and come back and, sure enough, it did," Sadoff
wrote. "He said when it did, he froze and stopped. But then, he
said he saw a message in the sky and he heard God talking to him
..the message in the sky was written in large capital letters,
�Satan is real.�"

Hoey also filed a second motion on Friday to suppress videotaped
statements Rosengarth made to police after his arrest. During
the questioning, the defendant admitted to shooting at state
police officers.

"And when you shot those guns, did you shoot at police or
sheriffs?" interrogators asked.

"At them, no ..No, it wasn�t directly at them ..It was ... to
get them the hell out of here," Rosengarth replied, according to
a transcript of the interrogation. "I asked them to leave
several times."

"But you realized that where you were firing, there were
officers nearby?" police asked.

"Yes," Rosengarth replied.

The defendant also told police he would have shot officers had
they attempted to enter his home with their guns drawn.

Riley has placed a gag order on the case, preventing Hoey and
Chief Deputy District Attorney Robert L. Miller from discussing
it with the media.

The standoff at Rosengarth�s home began around 11:30 a.m. when
four sheriff�s deputies arrived to serve the man with an
eviction order. The bank had foreclosed on the property for
nonpayment of real estate taxes and had sold it at a sheriff�s
sale for $96,000 in December 2001, according to court records.

A judge ordered Rosengarth evicted from the home in June 2003.

At first, Rosengarth refused to open the front door for the
deputies. Rosengarth then allegedly opened fire on the officers
from inside of the residence, first hitting Deputy Joseph Smida
in the face. Deputy James Boyd drew his department-issued Glock
.40-caliber handgun to return fire and was shot in the hand.

Smida had to be airlifted to Temple University Hospital and Boyd
was taken by ambulance to Jennersville Regional Hospital.

Shortly after 3 p.m. the defendant ended the standoffby waving a
white flag and walking peacefully from his home.

Police recovered a cache of weapons from Rosengarth�s home,
including an M-1 rifle, a .45-caliber semi-automatic pistol and
an AR-15 semi-automatic assault rifle.

Rosengarth has been charged with multiple counts of attempted
homicide, aggravated assault and related offenses.


c. Daily Local News 2004







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:36:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:45:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:29:00 -0400
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>I felt that there was a failure to distinguish between two
>different questions/issues:

>One is "are there unidentified objects flying around in the
>earth's skies?" This should be uncontroversial, based on 50
>years of reports, radar evidence, etc.

>The other question "are these alien craft?", is a completely
>different question, and here the evidence is not necessarily so
>conclusive.

>It wasn't clear if Shostak would agree to the simple reality of
>the first question, since it seemed like the unstated assumption
>was always "if there are unidentified objects flying around,
>then they must be alien craft," which is not at all necessarily
>the case.


Very true, Dante,

Once again we see one of the difficulties in discussing the UFO
enigma. We can hardly decide what the answers are when we're
still trying to define the questions.

I look at it this way, though...

If Stan were to stumble over a witness or document which was
totally unassailable, and which the "right people" decided to
embrace, and thus began the disclosure, we would rightly credit
Stan for ushering in a new age.

If Seth, or SETI in general, were to stumble upon a signal
which was unassailable, and the "right people" embraced it, and
thus proving that we are not alone, we would likewise credit
Seth.

The only people who would be surprised by either scenario are
those who refused to believe.

I'd certainly be happy with either scenario.

The big difference is that the former would require our history
books to be rewritten, and the latter would simply begin a new
chapter.

One question irks me though.....

If Stan is right, the aliens could well be hampering both sides,
working to prevent disclosure, and jamming or inserting
obscuring noise into SETIs signals intentionally. If so, what
hope do we have against such advanced tech - on either front?

That one grates my synapses.....


Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

             Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:36:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:50:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Stanford


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:44:41 -0500
>Subject: Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:28:42 -0400
>>Subject: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

>>Anyone hazard a guess as to why this particular contactee book
>>is considered so valuable by some?

>Hey, maybe they're true!

Not a beggar's chance of it being true. Details in something I
will post shortly.


Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

             Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Stockstill

From: Bill Stockstill <size14d.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:39:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:55:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Stockstill


>From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:31:13 -0400
>Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

>>From: Bill Stockstill <size14d.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:11:54 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

<snip>

>Bill, they don't want to _hospitalize_ us. They want to
>_medicate_ us. No doubt the pharmaceutical companies were strong
>supporters of this effort.

>And maybe, as an added benefit above and beyond the increased
>revenues for the drug companies, they can also manage to find
>and "medicate" anyone who, for instance, might dissent from the
>policies and practices of whoever is in office.

>Stranger things have happened.


So you think if you tell a psychiatrist that you are abducted in
the middle of the night and aliens do experiements on you and
you show them scars to prove it he will give you a pill and send
you on your way? It doesn't work that way. Medication might be
part of it, but if you say certain words you are heading to a
facility, involutarily.

Much of what happens depends on the Mental Health Worker that
assesses you and what they report to the MD who ultimately
decides your fate.

BTW, only a licensed MD can make the diagnosis of mental
illness.

The MHW use a lot of reading between the line and gut feeling.
They, of course, have to do that considering who they work with.
But once you get into a psych exam and they think you have a
problem the _least_ you can count on is outpatient therapy, with
or without medication. That is no matter what the drug companies
want because they aren't the physician who is making the call
and can get sued for malpractice or lose their license.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

               Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:00:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:59:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - King


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:15:07 +0000
>Subject: Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:28:42 -0400
>>Subject: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

>>While most contactee books from the 50s can be had for a
>>pittance, Van Tassel's "I Rode A Flying Saucer" seems to command
>>outrageous prices. A copy went on Ebay the other day for $496!:

>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=268&item=6912970193&rd=
1

>>Two copies come up on Bookfinder.com for $800 and $1500 (sic)!

>>Anyone hazard a guess as to why this particular contactee book
>>is considered so valuable by some?

>I hesitate to speculate on why peoples' minds are so often
>clouded with cobwebs. What I will say is that I have copies that
>I will gladly sell for  1/4, 1/5, or 1/6 of those asinine
>prices.


Dante,

As for the ebay-offered copy, I think it's status as a rare
first edition lends more to its value than its content.

And Dick, if yours are first editions, you got a deal. :)


Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

             Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:43:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:03:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Stanford


>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:28:42 -0400
>Subject: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

>While most contactee books from the 50s can be had for a
>pittance, Van Tassel's "I Rode A Flying Saucer" seems to command
>outrageous prices. A copy went on Ebay the other day for $496!:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=268&item=6912970193&rd=1

>Two copies come up on Bookfinder.com for $800 and $1500 (sic)!

>Anyone hazard a guess as to why this particular contactee book
>is considered so valuable by some?


Hello Dante,

Yikes! I've got a small fortune around this house somewhere,
unless I long ago threw it into the garbage where it belongs.

People pay that for it because they have an addiction to
foolishness, and there is a Van Tassel cult since his death that
has created an even deeper pile of B.S. than that channeled by
their idol. I knew Van Tassel personally, and two friends and I
had a really incredible daylight UFO encounter about a half mile
from 'Van's' place at Giant Rock, but the UFO we saw and filmed
(and which two delta-wing interceptors chased away) didn't look
a thing like the 'Adamski Scout Craft' in which type vehicle Van
claimed he had ridden. We used to go out there from where I was
living in the summer of 1956 in Los Angeles, mainly because his
high-desert retreat was a nice, isolated place to watch for UFOs
and Van didn't mind, being about as friendly a guy as you could
want to meet.

That said, Van Tassel's channeled messages were so bad that even
in my most wide-eyed days as a believer in Adamski at age 15
through 19, I found it to be utterly ridiculous. If I recall
correctly, his primary contact was alleged to be a Venusian he
called "Solganda" - which even then I referred to as "Solely a
gander", translating "only a male goose", :), meaning that I
felt Van was 'goosing' people. I recall that some of his
"messages" were said to be from the "Ashtar Command", whatever
the heck that was supposed to be. Well, whatever it was said to
be, within a couple of years, everybody and their dogs were
channeling messages from it.

Heck, one night out on the high desert near Van's place, I came
around a desert hillock and upon some young people in a car. I
was a little concerned that I might have disturbed the young
occupants love making.

As it turned out, a young girl was channeling, but she wasn't
channeling one of the guys! No, she was channeling The Ashtar
Command (What else?! It was California!), and the two guys were
eating it 'with a spoon', or else pretended to be.

Those were the days, my friend... :) Unfortunately, Dante, from
what you report, they still are! :(

Van patterned his UFO contact hoax around George Adamski's edge-
dented porcelain lamp shade (modified with a bottom and three
halves of ping-pong balls with the glue clearly showing on the
edge of one of them) that I suspect his mother brought with them
when they came over from Poland, or he might have gotten even
more followers. (No, Adamski's fake UFO wasn't a chicken
brooder, as Hynek claimed, and it was not a vacuum cleaner lid,
as Frank Edwards claimed.)

Van took in a lot of money from several old folks, with which to
build the "Integatron" housed in a gigantic, domed, all-wooden
(no metal) building that still stands. It was promised that the
Integatron would restore youth to the elderly. Funny (or sad)
thing, though, every time Van said the thing was about ready to
put into operation rejuvenating the elderly, his Venusian friend
Solganda would 'come through' and tell them it still needed
further work in order to get the frequency just right! Well,
Van's hopeful supporters died off, then he died.

I'd better sign off this ancient history and go look for that
long forgotten 'treasure' to throw it in the trash before it
multiplies :), rather than propagate such B.S. With someone
paying $496 for that bit of crap at auction, and Ed Gehrman
seemingly believing volcanic rock to be evidence of a UFO crash,
I sometimes wonder what this word is turning into.


Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:52:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:53:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Fleming


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:48:24 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

>One thing I was at odds with during the debate:

>Stan stated that "there is overwhelming evidence..."

>Seth asked, "What is your BEST evidence..."

>Stand said, "Well there's this..."

>Seth said, "_That's_ all you've got...?"

>Stan said, "Well no, there's lots more..."

>Seth said, "But what's your _best_ evidence...?"


We know what evidence Shostak finds badly wanting: _all_ of it.

If someone were to bring up any evidence he hasn't heard about
before, I'm sure he'd be able to think up a glib explanation on
the fly as to why it is not compelling.

What we do _not_ know is what he would consider compelling
evidence or even interesting evidence for the possible ET origin
of UFOs.

I didn't hear the debate, but I doubt he said anything about
what would pass his admirably stringent standards of evidence. I
suspect that he wants the sort of evidence that I think of as
"no-brainer" proof, such as the proverbial Landing On the White
House Lawn.

The problem with blatantly obvious manifestations like that is
nobody would need a scientist like Seth to tell them that there
might be ETs about. Even the talking heads on cable news would
be bright enough to figure that out all by themselves.

The orthodox scientific view Shostak promotes is essentially
that the question of whether any UFOs are extraterrestrial
cannot be worth the valuable time of any serious scientist to
investigate until there is proof that UFOs are extraterrestrial.

Kind of a Catch-22 situation.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

                      Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate [was:

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:38:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:59:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate [was:


>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:18:22 -0700
>Subject: Friedman/Shostak Debate [was: 'Hoax-Busting'...]

>>From: Steve Wilson Sr. <Ndunlks.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:35:07 EDT
>>Subject: 'Hoax-Busting' Science Center Expands

>>Source: Center for Inquiry

>>www.centerforinquiry.net

>>07-23-04

>>AMHERST, N.Y. - Display cases at the Center for Inquiry hold
>>snake oil and other murky cure-alls, fortune-telling tools and a
>>bug-eyed alien in repose. Intriguing mysteries to some, to the
>>center they are something else: byproducts of a public too
>>willing to turn a blind eye to science.

>>For years the center and its determined hoax-busters have taken
>>on crop circles and ghost sightings - any and all things
>>paranormal.

>>But equally important as proving what isn't true, chairman Paul
>>Kurtz says, is proving what is. That's why, as the center
>>undertakes a major four-year expansion, there is a special focus
>>on getting the public to get science.

><snip>

>>For Kurtz, what he calls the "planetary community" offers enough
>>excitement - the exploration of galaxies, medical advances and
>>emerging technologies. No need for science fiction or fantasy
>>here.

>>"Who needs Harry Potter?" Kurtz laughs. "The world itself is
>>really unbelievably enticing and mysterious and exhilarating
>>when you investigate it."

>Yeah, _when_ you actually do investigate it. Hey, how about
>using part of that $24 million to send someone out in the field
>to do an investigation.....

>I think the debate with Friedman and Shostak shows just exactly
>how much investigation these 'skeptics' are really doing.
>Friedman brought up some analysis on soil from a trace case and
>Shostak, without even having examined the case, wrote it off as
>someone possibly pouring water concentrated with salt in a
>perfect circle. Hey! Now that's science! Please...


Royce,

Seth was given evidence outside his field. He didn't "write it
off", he simply responded  - not with breathless acquiescence,
but with a logical alternative explanation. Not only is this
exactly what "science" is, it is also what is known as "debate".

You use "skeptic" as a pejorative term, when in this case it is
actually a good synonym for "scientist".








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

               Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:09:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:01:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Connors


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:37:18 -0400
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:45:27 -0600
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

<snip>

Hi Ray,

No problem. I will inform the List of who, what, when, where,
how and why if and when I have something to report. No putting
the cart before the horse will come from me.

You know my method... document, document, document and then let
the Pelicanists get all whipped into a frenzy. <G>

BTW, I haven't received donations for the audio history
preservation project from you and you're missing some great
audio history. <VBG>


Best Always,

Wendy
www.fadeddiscs.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

             Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:00:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:14:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Stanford


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:00:15 -0500
>Subject: Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:15:07 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

>>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:28:42 -0400
>>>Subject: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

>>>While most contactee books from the 50s can be had for a
>>>pittance, Van Tassel's "I Rode A Flying Saucer" seems to command
>>>outrageous prices. A copy went on Ebay the other day for $496!:

>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=268&item=6912970193

>>>Two copies come up on Bookfinder.com for $800 and $1500 (sic)!

>>>Anyone hazard a guess as to why this particular contactee book
>>>is considered so valuable by some?

>>I hesitate to speculate on why peoples' minds are so often
>>clouded with cobwebs. What I will say is that I have copies that
>>I will gladly sell for 1/4, 1/5, or 1/6 of those asinine
>>prices.

>As for the ebay-offered copy, I think it's status as a rare
>first edition lends more to its value than its content.

>And Dick, if yours are first editions, you got a deal. :)


Kyle,

I don't know much about book collecting value when the First
Edition was the only edition, but in this case I suspect the
First Edition could easily have been the only one. Whether that
would effect its collector status, pro or con, I do not know.
But, really, I suspect what actually effected the auction price
was the small total publication number and the size of the
George Van Tassel cult, today.


Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

              Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Denzler

From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:46:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:17:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Denzler


>From: Bill Stockstill <size14d.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:39:58 -0400
>Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

>>From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:31:13 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

>>>From: Bill Stockstill <size14d.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:11:54 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

><snip>

>>Bill, they don't want to _hospitalize_ us. They want to
>>_medicate_ us. No doubt the pharmaceutical companies were strong
>>supporters of this effort.

>>And maybe, as an added benefit above and beyond the increased
>>revenues for the drug companies, they can also manage to find
>>and "medicate" anyone who, for instance, might dissent from the
>>policies and practices of whoever is in office.

>>Stranger things have happened.

>So you think if you tell a psychiatrist that you are abducted in
>the middle of the night and aliens do experiements on you and
>you show them scars to prove it he will give you a pill and send
>you on your way? It doesn't work that way. Medication might be
>part of it, but if you say certain words you are heading to a
>facility, involutarily.

I'm saying that the intent of the new effort to do mental health
screening on all Americans may be surveillance and medication
for any perceived "aberations" in the peoples' thought
processes, but due to the difficulty of hospitalizing everyone
who might be so diagnosed, mass hospitalization is not as likely
an outcome as attempts at massive medication.

In individual cases, yes. I can see where mentioning an alien
abduction might be dangerous to one's continued freedom to move
about. But in all honesty, if you're going to show a mental
health worker a scar as "proof", maybe you don't need medication
or hospitalization, but you do need a course in logic. A scar
would only be proof that something happened to the skin at that
site. It would not be proof that aliens were involved in making
that "something" happen.


Brenda Denzler








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

                      High-Altitude Light Show In Focus

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:24:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:24:54 -0400
Subject: High-Altitude Light Show In Focus




Source: BBC News - UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3917137.stm

07-24-04


High-Altitude Light Show In Focus
By Dr David Whitehouse
BBC News Online science editor

Fresh data on sprites, jets and elves - strange flashes of
coloured light in the Earth's upper atmosphere - is being
returned to Earth by a new satellite.

<picture>

The Taiwanese Rocsat-2 spacecraft has been in orbit for two
months and is studying the high-altitude phenomena.

They are believed to be discharges of electricity from above
thunderstorms, part of a global electrical circuit.

Rocsat-2's first goal is to make a map of the distribution of
the flashes and how often they occur, say scientists.

Polar orbit

For years, reports of red streamers, blue jets and strange
diffuse glows seen in the upper reaches of the atmosphere were
not taken seriously.

But in the past decade videos taken from high-altitude aircraft
and the space shuttle have convinced scientists that they are
real.

The phenomena are difficult to study as they occur between 50
and 100km (30-60 miles) above the Earth's surface, too high for
most aircraft and too low for satellites.

To study them, the Taiwanese government built the Republic of
China Satellite 2 (Rocsat -2), which includes a sensor built by
the University of California at Berkeley, US, to gather
information about the lights.

The instrument contributed by the Americans is called Isual -
 the Imager of Sprites and Upper Atmospheric Lightning.

"With Isual, we are trying to figure out the properties of the
global electrical circuit, how the lower and upper atmosphere
are coupled electrically," says Stephen Mende, from UC-
Berkeley's Space Sciences Laboratory.

Molecular mash

The first Isual image was returned on 4 July. It showed red
sprites - short fluorescent "tubes" glowing like neon lights -
 reaching to the ionosphere.

Another image showed a brilliant lightning flash with a trio of
red sprites above it and a sprite halo encircling it.

Researchers believe that the lights occur after a lightning
strike which electrically "grounds" the top of the storm clouds,
creating a voltage difference between the cloud and the upper
atmosphere.

In the thin air at this altitude, the strong electrical fields
break down the air molecules.

The red sprites are formed in the regions of molecular
disintegration. The blue jets, however, seem to come from the
top of thunderclouds.

Elves are rapid bursts of light due to electromagnetic pulses
from lightning jolts.

Isual is expected to operate for five years from its polar orbit
more than 890km (550 miles) above the Earth's surface.


[UFO UpDates thanks 'Norm' for the lead and wrote:

 "Perhaps this natural phenomeon would explain some of the 'UFOs'
  that have been sighted by astronauts."]











   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

                   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:30:36 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:57:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman


>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:29:00 -0400
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>I felt that there was a failure to distinguish between two
>different questions/issues:

>One is "are there unidentified objects flying around in the
>earth's skies?" This should be uncontroversial, based on 50
>years of reports, radar evidence, etc.

>The other question "are these alien craft?", is a completely
>different question, and here the evidence is not necessarily so
>conclusive.

>It wasn't clear if Shostak would agree to the simple reality of
>the first question, since it seemed like the unstated assumption
>was always "if there are unidentified objects flying around,
>then they must be alien craft," which is not at all necessarily
>the case.


Usually in a debate there is a question before the house, but
there wasn't one the other night. I think the question should
not be, are there UFOs flying around our skies? I would accept
"Are _any_ UFOs intelligently controlled ET spacecraft?".

I would say "definitely yes", even though I would agree that most
sightings of UFOs are of Identifiable Flying Objects.

This is how we deal with our normal lives.

Yes, most people are _not_ 7' tall, and most people do _not_
have AIDS, most isotopes are_not_ fissionable, and yes, Seth,
most stars are _not_ Black Holes.

So what?

_Some_ people are 7' tall, some stars are black holes even if I
haven't been provided with a piece of one, _some_ do have AIDS,
and _some_ few isotopes are fissionable. And the best
explanation for _some_ reports of clearly manufactured objects
flying in our skies for the past 57 years, behaving in ways
which we Earthlings cannot duplicate with our aircraft, is that
they are ET Spacecraft. Especially since thousands have landed
and produced physical changes - 16% of those cases involve
reports of beings associated with the craft that are seen.

There are multiple witness radar visual sightings by competent
observers, investigated by competent investigators, for which
the simplest (Occam's Razor anyone?) explanation is ET
Spacecraft.

Seth noted that radar can be mistaken, which of course the
professionals are well aware of. Sort of like saying Barry Bonds
strikes out... which has nothing to do with the home runs he has
hit according to eyewitness testimony. Seth wants "The Best
Evidence" as though prosecutors in murder cases should be forced
to present the Best evidence in a 5 minute sound bite.

Strange thing here is that I gave Seth Dr. Jim McDonald's 71
page congresional testimony with 41 fine cases. He heard my
"Flying Saucers ARE Real" lecture on the Queen Ellizabeth 2
which showed slides of data from Blue Book Special Report 14 and
other major sources and of the Delphos, Kansas, soil samples. He
prattled on about a farmer dumping salt water or the soil being
clay! Talk about research by proclamation!

I will have more to say, but must admit I admire his Chutzpah...
going on a 3 hour talk show with me, without doing any homework
at all, despite the extra month available.

I am sorry I restrained myself and didn't point out that SETI
really stands for Silly Effort To Investigate or that SETI has
all the trappings of a cult... charismatic leadership, strong
dogma, strong resistance to outside ideas and a very large and
unjustified view of its own importance.

I am sure the cultists will find an explanation for my being
chosen winner by 57% of the voters, Seth by 33% and 10% saying
it was a draw.


Stan Friedman

My paper, UFOs: Challenge To SETI Specialists, has been on my
website for a long time.

http://www.stanfriedman.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

                          Faded Discs Audio Project

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:07:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:04:20 -0400
Subject: Faded Discs Audio Project


Greetings to the Listarians,

EBK was kind enough to include a PayPal button on my website.
Hopefully, this will help researchers world-wide order the audio
history discs without having to deal with currency exchange. A
big thank you, Errol!

Many Thanks also to all the wonderful researchers who are
enjoying the audio compilations. The newest - Volume 5 - will be
out in late August. Titled "ETH: Dr. James E. McDonald - An
Audio Retrospective", it will contain many rare recordings from
such people as Robert Coe Gardner, Dr. Ley and Dr. Sanderson's
"Biological Theory of UFOs," etc. Many surprises will be on this
disc along with the Dr. McDonald recordings.

Early this fall will be Volume 6 in the series. Tentively
titled, "Flying Saucers and Three Men Named George", it will
be a large compilation of recordings of George Adamski, George
Van Tassel and George Hunt Williamson... many never known, until
now, to exist.


Best Always,

Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

                                 Unsubscribe

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy.nul>
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:58:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:42:02 -0400
Subject: Unsubscribe


Hello, all.

With deep regret and no time to explain, I un-subcribe from
UFO UpDates.

I respect and will miss you all, but, I am too busy with
my personal life to even attempt commenting.


Good Hunting!

GT McCoy








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

               Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:15:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:48:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Clark


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:43:39 -0400
>Subject: Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:28:42 -0400
>>Subject: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

<snip>

>That said, Van Tassel's channeled messages were so bad that even
>in my most wide-eyed days as a believer in Adamski at age 15
>through 19, I found it to be utterly ridiculous. If I recall
>correctly, his primary contact was alleged to be a Venusian he
>called "Solganda" - which even then I referred to as "Solely a
>gander", translating "only a male goose", :), meaning that I
>felt Van was 'goosing' people. I recall that some of his
>"messages" were said to be from the "Ashtar Command", whatever
>the heck that was supposed to be. Well, whatever it was said to
>be, within a couple of years, everybody and their dogs were
>channeling messages from it.

<snip>


Hi, Ray,

Thanks for a most entertaining posting. I have a fascination -
 some would say a soft spot in the head - for the 1950s
contactees, who were indeed a charming and colorful assortment
of rogues.

Unlike some who would follow in later decades, these guys were
basically harmless, though one can understand why the more sober
ufologists of the period did not appreciate them. Still, a
mystical religious response to the UFO phenomenon was
inevitable, and these guys picked up on themes from 19th-Century
occultism and incorporated them into the emerging saucer craze.

Though Adamski is better remembered, Van Tassel was arguably the
more important and influential contactee figure. Van Tassel's
Giant Rock conventions gave the movement focus and shape, and
VT's first book, not Adamski and Leslie's, was the first modern
contactee book.

Ashtar - likely picked up from Oahspe, a channeled work
published in 1882 and widely popular in contactee circles -
probably comes from "ashars," whom Oahspe author John Ballou
Newbrough described as guardian angels who fly in etheric ships.
I discuss the curious history of Ashtar in The UFO Encyclopedia,
2nd ed., pp. 143-46.

I might add that the very talented Chicago rock musician and
songwriter Chris Holmes (sometimes spoken of in the same breath
as another genius, though a much more famous one, Brian Wilson)
has long headed a band called the Ashtar Command. He's a friend
of my daughter Molly, who once told him that her dad appreciates
all that Chris has done for Ashtar. Chris was appropriately
amused. A bright and charming guy with wide-ranging interests,
he's a knowledgeable UFO buff.


Jerry Clark








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:14:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:52:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Hall


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:38:24 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate [was: 'Hoax-Busting'...]

>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:18:22 -0700
>>Subject: Friedman/Shostak Debate [was: 'Hoax-Busting'...]

<snip>

>Royce,

>Seth was given evidence outside his field. He didn't "write it
>off", he simply responded  - not with breathless acquiescence,
>but with a logical alternative explanation. Not only is this
>exactly what "science" is, it is also what is known as "debate".

>You use "skeptic" as a pejorative term, when in this case it is
>actually a good synonym for "scientist".

Kyle,

I disagree. "Breathless acquiesence?" Please.

You set up completely false alternatives.

First, if it's totally outside his field, he has no business
speculating at all. And when he automatically assumes that there
has to be a mundane explanation, he makes the same logical error
that many or most alleged scientists do. What he said clearly is
not a "logical alternative" and his approach is not scientific.

If he were scientific (and skeptical) he might ask what methods
were used in the investigation and how thoroughly it was tested,
the qualfications of the investigators, that sort of thing. He
might advocate the need for careful, thorough, scientific
investigation and testing and systematic analysis of similar
cases. It would appear that, instead,  he took the standard
skeptibunker way out by uttering a knee-jerk negative comment
that effectively denies the data but makes no effort to actually
study or investigate it.


 - Dick








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

                A Bentwaters Afternoon Tour With Larry Warren

From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:10:41 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:58:22 -0400
Subject: A Bentwaters Afternoon Tour With Larry Warren


EBK and Listers,

I am pleased to supply, mainly for UK ufologists and interested
parties, the details of The Larry Warren talk, on site, at RAF
Bentwaters.

All are welcome the details are below.

Max Burns

-----

Saturday 14Th August 2004

BUFORA is pleased to present:

A Day Trip To Rendlesham Forest In The Company Of Larry Warren

* BUFORA minibus leaves the Goat in Boots, Drummond St., London,
NW1, at 12pm sharp (mini bus is fully-booked ).

* All participants to meet at the Cherry Tree pub, Bromeswell,
Near. Woodbridge, Suffolk 2.00 - 2.30pm.

* From there to the Bentwaters Base Theatre where Larry will
give a presentation 3.30 - 5.00pm approx. This is a chance to
understand Larry's 'I was there' perspective on the nights of
UFO activity at the American base just after Christmas 1980. He
will also update us on recent developments.

* Guided tour of the forest, by Larry, to places of interest,
including the landing site at Capel Green where he witnessed
contact between senior officers and what appeared to be aliens.

* Minibus leaves back to London 8pm.

Entrance to the presentation is free for BUFORA minibus
participants, the fee having been included in the minibus price.
All other BUFORA members =A35, non-members =A37.

The Base Theatre will provide teas and coffees, and the licensed
bar on the premises will be open.

For those wishing to attend the day, if you need directions as a
suggestion you can use MultiMap

http://www.multimap.com/

Contact number on the day:

Judy Jaafar's mobile 07776 15 66 55
judy.nul
www.bufora.org.uk








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:51:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:07:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:36:06 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:29:00 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>If Stan is right, the aliens could well be hampering both sides,
>working to prevent disclosure, and jamming or inserting
>obscuring noise into SETIs signals intentionally. If so, what
>hope do we have against such advanced tech - on either front?


Kyle,

Occam's Razor in science tells us we cannot jump to the more
complicated scenario (or hypothesis) before eliminating the
simpler scenarios. The simpler scenario that the aliens are not
masking or jamming their signals has to be investigated first
and given a fair chance of being tested out before we abandon
the idea. It is often hard to tell how much effort should be put
in before giving up. Usually the partisans in favor of an idea
will go down fighting for their cause until every avenue has
been exhausted (along with themselves).

So far only SETI theorists have ever tried to develop consistent
models or scenarios for alien behavior. UFO "science" never
advances because ufologists refuse to develop any consistent
models of alien behavior. Ufologists give up almost immediately
under various sorry excuses that alien technology would be "so
advanced" it would be like "magic," that alien behavior would be
so "alien" that no one can fathom it. This is getting to be like
postulating aliens are like God yet even God can be studied and
the whole field of doing so is called "theology" and indeed one
major branch of it called "natural theology" led directly to the
establishment of modern science in the Middle Ages. But
ufologists refuse to engage in the theoretical studies, they
radically cling to extreme empiricism and denounce anyone who
tries to do theoretics.


Brad








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 24

                Re: Faded Discs Audio Project [was: Creatures

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:53:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:14:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Faded Discs Audio Project [was: Creatures


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO Updates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:09:43 -0600
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:37:18 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:45:27 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

><snip>

>No problem. I will inform the List of who, what, when, where,
>how and why if and when I have something to report. No putting
>the cart before the horse will come from me.

>You know my method... document, document, document and then let
>the Pelicanists get all whipped into a frenzy. <G>

>BTW, I haven't received donations for the audio history
>preservation project from you and you're missing some great
>audio history. <VBG>


That's good news, Wendy.

I had never visited your website to realize that you accept
PayPal, and having just clicked on the link you provided, and
having learned that you _do_ accept it, so, SHAZAM!, there's
little appreciation for the wonderful work you have done (and
are doing) to preserve UFO auditory history.

Keep up that good work for posterity, Wendy!

And, hey, fellow list members, this gal is doing a great job
that no one else is doing, and we all owe her a debt of helping
out, so please contribute today. You will be doing yourself and
Ufology a favor.


Ray Stanford







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:28:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:03:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:51:32 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:36:06 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:29:00 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

Hi, Brad,

>So far only SETI theorists have ever tried to develop consistent
>models or scenarios for alien behavior. UFO "science" never
>advances because ufologists refuse to develop any consistent
>models of alien behavior. Ufologists give up almost immediately
>under various sorry excuses that alien technology would be "so
>advanced" it would be like "magic," that alien behavior would be
>so "alien" that no one can fathom it. This is getting to be like
>postulating aliens are like God yet even God can be studied and
>the whole field of doing so is called "theology" and indeed one
>major branch of it called "natural theology" led directly to the
>establishment of modern science in the Middle Ages. But
>ufologists refuse to engage in the theoretical studies, they
>radically cling to extreme empiricism and denounce anyone who
>tries to do theoretics.

This actually is unfair and untrue, Brad. Thoughtful ufologists
have written interestingly on the extraterrestrial hypothesis,
and they have every right to resent sweeping charges like the
ones you hurl at "ufologists". Every single one of them? Come
on. And frankly, a degree of modesty about what we can infer
about an alien intelligence strikes me as commendable, not
something to be vehemently condemned as a posture to be taken
only by idiots and fools.

For a guide to how ufologists have thought about the ETH over
the years, one could do worse than start with my survey
"Extraterrestrial Hypothesis and Ufology" in the UFO
encyclopedia. In recent years particularly good, solid writing
on UFOs and the ETH has been done by Michael Swords and Edward
Ashpole. One may agree or disagree with their conclusions, but
they in no way merit CSICOP-style polemics about the stupidity
of ufologists. This sort of thing is truly tiresome, and I would
expect better of an old friend and valued colleague.


Jerry Clark









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

                   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Bilodeau

From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:28:29 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:07:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Bilodeau


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:08:54 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:48:24 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>>One thing I was at odds with during the debate:

>>Stan stated that "there is overwhelming evidence..."

>>Seth asked, "What is your BEST evidence..."

>>Stand said, "Well there's this..."

>>Seth said, "_That's_ all you've got...?"

>>Stan said, "Well no, there's lots more..."

>>Seth said, "But what's your _best_ evidence...?"

>>And so on.

>>_Not_ having one huge solid piece of evidence doesn't deny
>>overwhelming evidence.

<snip>

Didn't strike you that "the BEST evidence" question, which in
this case looks more like an accusation than an enquiry, was
asked by a person working in a field that as NO EVIDENCE
whatsoever? Talk about the straw in one's eyes.

On what scientific _ evidence_ does SETI rely on? None.

Amusing: the whole nature of SETI is based on the idea that _advanced_
civilizations would like to communicate with each other using _radio
waves_... Hello?

Surprising: anyone noticed the SETI guys reject the ideas of UFOs?

Last but not least: let's just suppose that the SETI guys get
one tenth of 1 percent of the pile of data ufology has... Can
you ear the bells ringing, can you smell the spilled champagne
and the lit cigars?

Make this a tenth of a thousandth of 1 percent of the data
ufology has and you get fireworks and a hell of a party.

Make it just _one_ _remote_ piece of a possible case of an
intelligent beep from outer space... they'd be assaulting the
bars and pubs at 10 in the morning.

What is _their_ _best_ _evidence_?

Zero. Nada.

And they have the gall to play it dumb when we show them some
evidence?

What's missing?









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 16:05:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:11:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:51:32 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:36:06 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:29:00 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

><snip>

>>If Stan is right, the aliens could well be hampering both sides,
>>working to prevent disclosure, and jamming or inserting
>>obscuring noise into SETIs signals intentionally. If so, what
>>hope do we have against such advanced tech - on either front?

>Occam's Razor in science tells us we cannot jump to the more
>complicated scenario (or hypothesis) before eliminating the
>simpler scenarios. The simpler scenario that the aliens are not
>masking or jamming their signals has to be investigated first
>and given a fair chance of being tested out before we abandon
>the idea. It is often hard to tell how much effort should be put
>in before giving up. Usually the partisans in favor of an idea
>will go down fighting for their cause until every avenue has
>been exhausted (along with themselves).

>So far only SETI theorists have ever tried to develop consistent
>models or scenarios for alien behavior. UFO "science" never
>advances because ufologists refuse to develop any consistent
>models of alien behavior. Ufologists give up almost immediately
>under various sorry excuses that alien technology would be "so
>advanced" it would be like "magic," that alien behavior would be
>so "alien" that no one can fathom it. This is getting to be like
>postulating aliens are like God yet even God can be studied and
>the whole field of doing so is called "theology" and indeed one
>major branch of it called "natural theology" led directly to the
>establishment of modern science in the Middle Ages. But
>ufologists refuse to engage in the theoretical studies, they
>radically cling to extreme empiricism and denounce anyone who
>tries to do theoretics.

>Brad

Good points!

I avoid the 'spinning whirlpool of speculation' by just sticking
to the basics of life.

It's either predator or prey. All life is doing is surviving on
several stages: create, maintain.

We humans are both predator and prey. Actually along with our
most lethal and long term enemy the Mosquito, we're probably our
own leading cause of death.

So we look at the 'visitors' and ask ourselves what do they
want?

Simple, they're trying to survive by creating and maintaining
 something. What that 'something' is is speculative. Yet I'd say
it's safe to say they're creating and maintaining themselves.

Sure there are those abductees and snake oil salesmen that
proclaim they have a 'message' from the 'space brothers' or some
such thing, but I for one ignore them. If there's no messenger
then there's no message. Speak for yourselves, we _do_ have
global communications systems or hadn't they noticed that?

What do they want from us? We are some part of those drives.

We don't need to hunt anymore. We learned how to grow and
control our food sources. Yet we hunt for pleasure. We're our #1
prey nowadays. Ironic isn't it that after millions of years of
battling nature we end up turning on ourselves. Kind of defines
what we really are all along.

Advanced technology has nothing to do with sanity. Just look at
the TV programs and you can see that for yourselves. A
technologically advanced civilization from another world may be
just that: technologically advanced. Socially is another issue.
That depends on how they treat one another, as valued members or
grist for the mill.

Far too often I hear or read where someone assumes that
civilizations that are advanced don't want to contact us because
we're so 'savage'. That doesn't mean squat without proof. It's
only speculation. Could be we may be nicer than our neighbors
and they can't figure it out. As brutal as we are we might be
the nicest kids in the neighborhood. Speculation yes, but a new
slant on this issue. Worse case scenario, they don't want to
contact us because if we found out what they've done or are
doing or intend, we'd might marshall our forces and open up a
cosmic can of asswhup on them.

I can hear it now " They're so advanced they'd wipe us out! "

Bring it on.

Much worse could happen. So that's why I don't go into their
motivations other than the basics we know life to do.

We do know they're secretive with a capital 'S'. Practicality
taking the high road here what makes a life form so stealthy?

Fear of detection and interaction basically. What that fear is
is speculative.

We have to get out of the 'Dr. Carrington from The Thing'
mentality that because some other culture is advanced
technologically they're better than us socially. He got a stiff
arm into the next corridor when he attempted to prove his theory
out.

They're here. They're secretive. They're technologically
advanced, they abduct us, they experiment on us.

Until they interrupt the distribution of alcohol, drugs, NASCAR
broadcasts and soap operas, no one on Earth will pay notice.

Yet one day soon, when thousands of people are sitting in the
broiling sun watching men drive around in circles at high
speeds, a disc will appear, abduct the top qualifier and the
beer and all heck will break loose :)


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

               Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 16:07:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:40:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - White


>From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:46:16 -0400
>Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

<snip>

>... due to the difficulty of hospitalizing everyone who might be
>so diagnosed, mass hospitalization is not as likely an outcome
>as attempts at massive medication.

This American "psychiatry-for-everyone" program is especially
serious because hiding in the shadows is another pharma-related
move: The creation of, and authority to force the use of,
_deeply_ implanted psychoactive medication dispensers. These
can't be removed by amateurs.

For those who don't know, psychoactive drugs can have side
effects so painful that if it weren't for the official view that
mental health treatments are "for the patient's benefit", they
would be classed as torture. These drugs often create un-
slakeable around the clock dry mouth and "restless legs" in
which the patient must walk walk walk, day and night, until he
or she drops, exhausted, into unconsciousness. Or simply feeling
"just horrible" in a general way, 24/7, and inescapable with a
medicine dispensing implant. Tremors happen. Forget holding a
job if you're on this stuff. "Chemical straight jacket" is a
good label for these medications.

Beyond that, these powerful drugs can cause major deterioration
of various body systems. A military veteran reported that one of
his fellow patients in a Veterans Administration hospital had
been put permanently into a wheelchair as a result of long term
psychoactive drugging.

Haldol ranks high on the probability of nasty side effects
scale, as do thorazine and largactil. One of our colleagues, who
has been forced through a wide range of these drugs, reports
that Seroquel is the least likely to have bad side effects.
Another reports fairly good luck with Olanzapine. But lacking
immediate bad side effects still doesn't put one out of reach of
the long term deterioration of body systems.

There are drugs which are supposed to offset some of the bad
side effects. Cogentin is one but hasn't received rave reviews
from those taking it. One colleague reported Abilify worked
quite well and allowed him to actually do useful work while on
psychoactive drugs, which is usually impossible otherwise.

I recommend anyone prescribed any of these drugs research the
CPS in Canada or the PDR in the United States, at least.

Although psychiatrists will insist on some drugging in most
cases, they are often open to trying different meds in an effort
to reduce negative side effects. But of course, that option is
lost if you are forced to take an implanted dispenser.

It is probably difficult to persuade a doctor to try, but one
patient found that Valium at bed time eliminated the restless
legs problem.


Eleanor White








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

              Re: Kal Korff MSN Chat Sept '97 On Billy Meier -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 16:16:06 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:43:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Kal Korff MSN Chat Sept '97 On Billy Meier -


>From: Bill Stockstill <size14d.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:25:31 -0400
>Subject: Kal Korff MSN Chat Sept 1997 on Billy Meier


>I promised this awhile ago.This is a chat that I did (as
>TheSaint) with Diana Botsford in 1997 on MSN's now
>defunct UFO Forum.

>Bill Stockstill

<snip>

Wow! That was some chatlog! As a chat host myself I can
appreciate it.

I was just about to ask about Billy Meier.

I have pals who insist I read his notes on meeting with his
alien pals. I refused. I can't ask the aliens, they won't appear
on 'Meet The Press' then they can go eat beans for all I care.
History is too full of 'benevolent beings from the stars' who
have a message they tell a few and then haul ass somewhere.

Stick around, we humans have a tendency to not believe these
messages until we get frustrated and incorporate some apotheosis
into them. Usually by force.

My only interest in Mr. Meier's accounts are his photos and
films. Are some/all genuine or not? Simple thing to ask. They've
been around for about 30 years now. With all our digital
doodads, can't we just take a look?

Has anyone done this yet?

If not, why not? Is he holding the negatives or something?

If he's reticent to provide things to be examined then why waste
time on it.

In the chatlog Korff mentions how he snuck around and did this
or that. Well that's what investigators do. Not necessarily
ethical but did he fully invalidate Meier's claims or just some?

I grew up studying special effects and now work in that area to
a degree. You'ld be suprised how much a fertile imagination can
get away with. Even today's digital effects are clumsy in the
hands of a goof. Masters of the craft from the old days did
amazing things without computers and software. Some special
effects live up to the challenge to this day.

Sure things can be faked, but in Meier's case were they faked or
is this just an assumption?

It's gone on too long and with the available technology it
should have been tackled already.

"Is he is, or is he ain't our Plaedian?"


Best,

Greg







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

              Press Release - Paradigm Research Group 07-26-04

From: Stephen Bassett <Disclosure2003.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:25:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:48:48 -0400
Subject: Press Release - Paradigm Research Group 07-26-04


PRG
Paradigm Research Group

July 26, 2004 - Press Release
Memos to the Candidates

On the eve of the Democratic Convention PRG issues the following
challenge to three of the presidential candidates

Washington, DC - The next President of the United States will
take office during the 57th year of the public's awareness of a
government imposed truth embargo on the fact of an
extraterrestrial presence engaging the planet earth and the
human race. This awareness began with the withdrawal of the
"retrieved saucer" explanation by General Roger Ramey and the
substitution of a "weather balloon" to account for the events in
early July 1947 in Roswell, New Mexico.  Later that year the
superstructure for this embargo was created with the passage of
the National Security Act and the assembling of a management
team titled Majestic-12 Group.

This truth embargo has left a massive hole in the worldview of
every living human being. It has created two parallel realities
- one with an accepted extraterrestrial hypothesis and one
without.  It has broken the social contract, compromised the
mission of NASA, eroded trust in government, withheld life and
environmental enhancing technology and warped the relationship
between two branches of government (executive and legislative)
and the military/intelligence community.

The extraordinary requirement to service this embargo while
simultaneously prosecuting the Cold War, a 45-year ideological
conflict unlike anything the world had ever seen, resulted in
the creation of a "Secret Empire" - the intelligence components
of the military/industrial complex. It is an empire because it
is vast in size and power and no part of it is elected.  It is
composed of fiefdoms run by career managers who are replaced
internally when they retire or die.  While agency directors are
publicly appointed by presidents, the directors of corporate
intelligence operations are not public and operate in a hybrid
world of government classification and corporate proprietary
self-interest.

The public interest oversight of this complex - larger (on the
basis of its "known" budget) than the total military spending of
every nation on earth except the United States ($420 billion in
2002) - lies with the House and Senate Select Committees on
Intelligence.  But as the Secret Empire has grown, both the
effectiveness and public trust in members of Congress and
Congress as a functioning institution have diminished. Committee
members are quick to say they "have things under control," but
each year fewer Americans believe them or for that matter care
or pay attention.

Organized citizen efforts toward "secrecy reform," while well
meaning, have been minimal with little or no funding. Attempts
by the Executive Branch to reform, restructure or limit the
Secret Empire have been, inadequate, misdirected or disdainfully
rebuffed.  Ironically, the sheer size of this complex has
contributed to numerous failures to "take care of business."
While the Secret Empire has successfully tended its own agendas,
kept its own secrets, managed public opinion and conducted
domestic campaigns of surveillance, subversion, misinformation
and propaganda, it has often failed in matters of its primary
function to protect and defend the United States.  When you have
millions of people with multi-levels of clearance to assign and
track, hundreds of millions of documents to classify, thousands
of overt and covert projects to manage, vast underground
facilities to build and maintain, equally vast above ground
facilities to secure, it would seem that foreign enemies of the
state "slip through the cracks." These instances have been well
documented and don't need to be addressed here. The response to
each intelligence blunder is the same - demands for more money,
more secrecy and more power - size begetting failures begetting
greater size.

There are four men still campaigning for the presidency who are
high profile, "mainstream" candidates. Two have a chance to win,
and two are trying to either make a statement or influence the
election. None are likely to say anything, nothing, about the
Secret Empire or take any position on real secrecy reform
beyond, "mistakes were made pre- and post-9/11. This issue, like
many others, is off limits, and the willingness of the American
people to accept limited debate and exposition is now a threat
to the nation.

But there is hope, because millions of Americans have become
aware and informed of the actions and implications of the Secret
Empire through their interest in extraterrestrial-related
phenomena. They are increasingly networked and now form a
substantial voting block.  They are educated, well read, cyber
savvy and many have military backgrounds. They are starting to
put pressure on candidates to take a position on the most
controversial and implicative issue in the world today.

On their behalf the following open memos to three of these four
candidates are posted - Bush and Kerry because either could win
and Kucinich because his worldview already embraces the
possibility of an extraterrestrial presence. Nader is left out
because he can't win, has no interest in extraterrestrial-
related phenomena and has rebuffed every approach to inform him
on the subject.

-----

Memos to the Candidates

Dear President Bush:

The day you stepped into the White House as the 43rd President
of the United States you stood on the threshold of perhaps the
greatest legacy offered any head of state in history. Ten years
after the end of the Cold War you could be the leader who ended
the truth embargo and informed the nation and the world of the
extraterrestrial presence engaging this planet.  You could be
the "disclosure president."

Millions of people around the world then watched closely to see
if you would deliver on your promise to Charles Huffer during an
exchange at a 2000 campaign stop in Arkansas. CNN recorded the
moment.

Huffer: Half the public believes that they are real. Would you
finally tell us what the hell is going on?

Bush: Sure, I will.

Huffer: (Gesturing toward Cheney) This man knows. He was
Secretary of Defense.

Bush: And was a great one.

Later Huffer encountered you off-camera in the hall. You
recognized Huffer and unsolicited said:

Bush: It will be the first thing he (pointing to Cheney) will
do. He'll get right on it.

Huffer: Will, will you really?

Bush: Yes Sir.

Truly, it has been a difficult three and a half years - a tough
time for the nation and your administration.  History has called
upon you in other ways with other challenges.

But the disclosure legacy was and still is yours to claim in
part because your father was held in the highest regard by the
military and intelligence communities - the exact opposite
circumstance from the intervening Clinton administration.  The
election this November is now problematic.  If you do not take
up the disclosure mantle, it may be lost to you and your party
forever. The truth embargo cannot last four more years. More
ranking military and agency employee will come forward.  The
media complicity will end.  History calls, Mr. President. Answer
the call.

-----

Dear Senator Kerry:

The television talking heads that analyze your campaign
repeatedly refer to the need for you to "define" yourself to the
electorate and "separate" yourself from George W. Bush during an
era when a significant segment of the public sees little
difference between the two principal political parties while
referring to "republicrats."

Should you choose to take this good advice, you might begin by
repudiating your membership in the absurd and dangerous secret
society, Skull and Bones, rather than laugh off or refuse to
answer questions from the press regarding this cabalistic
organization, which exists for no other reason than to network
power among selected elite. The American people no longer find
this funny or irrelevant.

More importantly, while it is inconceivable, given the
restricted and scripted nature of the modern election campaign,
you would speak to or seriously answer questions about
extraterrestrial-related phenomena, there is something you
should know.

The truth embargo (or cover-up) preventing a formal
acknowledgment of the extraterrestrial presence (disclosure) is
unraveling due to the emergence of military and agency witnesses
since the end of the Cold War.  Should you take office on
January 21, 2005, this truth embargo becomes your concern, and
the legacy of the "disclosure presidency" yours to claim - or
reject. Do not accept a "need to know" explanation from the DoD,
NSA or CIA for their refusal to give you the information you
need to make a disclosure decision. Each day of your term that
passes without you stepping forward and ending this 5-decade
charade, that legacy will slowly fade away and you and your
political party will begin to "own" the cover-up. A new year, a
new president, a new world.

-----


Dear Congressman Kucinich:

Six high profile Democratic Party candidates in the 2004
presidential campaign have fallen away, but you continue because
you believe you have something to say to the American people and
to your party convention. Your supporters and staff have worked
very hard to give you this opportunity - to have an impact.

You are clearly a man apart. There is no one else in the United
States Congress like you - no one who thinks further outside the
box. Consequently, you have brought many innovative ideas and
positions on issues into the campaign. Of particular note are
your views regarding war, peace, nonproliferation and weapons in
space.  These are issues of great importance, which, if not
resolved soon, may yet lead to worldwide calamity.

And this raises a troubling question. How is it remotely
possible for the governments of the world to reach decisions
about war, peace, nonproliferation, the weaponization of space
and a host of other related matters, when the truth of an
extraterrestrial presence is being kept completely out of the
public discourse?

Congressman Kucinich, you can make history. Step forward and
speak to this matter. Lift the curtain of ridicule. Finish what
candidate Jimmy Carter could not finish in 1976. Be the first
presidential candidate with a spot at the party convention to
place the most important issue in the world before the nation.
Millions of people around the planet will stand and applaud true
political courage.


Stephen Bassett
Executive Director
Paradigm Research Group

-----

Paradigm Research Group
E-mail: ParadigmRG.nul
URL: www.paradigmclock.com
Cell: 202-431-2459
4938 Hampden Lane, #161
Bethesda, MD 20814

-----







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:26:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:54:21 -0400
Subject: Re:  Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:51:32 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:36:06 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:29:00 -0400

><snip>

>>If Stan is right, the aliens could well be hampering both sides,
>>working to prevent disclosure, and jamming or inserting
>>obscuring noise into SETIs signals intentionally. If so, what
>>hope do we have against such advanced tech - on either front?

>Occam's Razor in science tells us we cannot jump to the more
>complicated scenario (or hypothesis) before eliminating the
>simpler scenarios. The simpler scenario that the aliens are not
>masking or jamming their signals has to be investigated first
>and given a fair chance of being tested out before we abandon
>the idea. It is often hard to tell how much effort should be put
>in before giving up. Usually the partisans in favor of an idea
>will go down fighting for their cause until every avenue has
>been exhausted (along with themselves).

>So far only SETI theorists have ever tried to develop consistent
>models or scenarios for alien behavior. UFO "science" never
>advances because ufologists refuse to develop any consistent
>models of alien behavior. Ufologists give up almost immediately
>under various sorry excuses that alien technology would be "so
>advanced" it would be like "magic," that alien behavior would be
>so "alien" that no one can fathom it. This is getting to be like
>postulating aliens are like God yet even God can be studied and
>the whole field of doing so is called "theology" and indeed one
>major branch of it called "natural theology" led directly to the
>establishment of modern science in the Middle Ages. But
>ufologists refuse to engage in the theoretical studies, they
>radically cling to extreme empiricism and denounce anyone who
>tries to do theoretics.


Brad,

Last first. I think every UFOlogists who calls himself that
IS engaged in theoretical studies.

I read posts every day in this list that attempt to explain,
describe, or contemplate technologies that are far beyond our
current capabilities...no terms like "magic" included.

My post, or the snippet you cite, reflects what logically follows
when I ask myself, "What if Stan's right?". Nothing more. Purely
"theoretical studies".

On partisanship, if a scientist is a partisan, he stops being a
scientist.

Stan Friedman is a scientist in physics. In the UFO field, he is
not a scientist (gasp). He's an advocate... for a particular
view regarding UFOs. He may be right, and he may be wrong. I am
not convinced either way, but I champion his cause for this
reason...

Our government has lied about its drug testing on American
citizens, (using chemical weapons on its own people)

Our government has lied about War, (Cambodia, Iran/Contra,
Iraq?, indiscriminate killing for political gain) Our government
seems willing and able to lie about things.

When I ask myself, "What if the government really _did_ know
that UFOs were from other than earth? How would the government
respond?", the answer leaves me thankful that Stan Friedman is
out there digging. Because of our government's past behavior,
the "Occam's Razor" test is somewhat skewed. If they are behind
all this, then the simplest answer is wrong. The answer becomes
more complex than Occam could have dared imagine.

I merely leave that possibility open in my mind, just exactly as
I leave room in my mind for the possibility that aliens could be
out there waiting for signals from "out there" like us..

My main point still remains. Our debate and our presence is
elevated when reasonable men challenge each other's views
without ridicule, or hyperbole, and best of all, without anger.

Kyle









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:38:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:58:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:52:33 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:48:24 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

>>One thing I was at odds with during the debate:

>>Stan stated that "there is overwhelming evidence..."

>>Seth asked, "What is your BEST evidence..."

>>Stand said, "Well there's this..."

>>Seth said, "_That's_ all you've got...?"

>>Stan said, "Well no, there's lots more..."

>>Seth said, "But what's your _best_ evidence...?"

>We know what evidence Shostak finds badly wanting: _all_ of it.

>If someone were to bring up any evidence he hasn't heard about
>before, I'm sure he'd be able to think up a glib explanation on
>the fly as to why it is not compelling.

>What we do _not_ know is what he would consider compelling
>evidence or even interesting evidence for the possible ET origin
>of UFOs.

>I didn't hear the debate, but I doubt he said anything about
>what would pass his admirably stringent standards of evidence. I
>suspect that he wants the sort of evidence that I think of as
>"no-brainer" proof, such as the proverbial Landing On the White
>House Lawn.

>The problem with blatantly obvious manifestations like that is
>nobody would need a scientist like Seth to tell them that there
>might be ETs about. Even the talking heads on cable news would
>be bright enough to figure that out all by themselves.

>The orthodox scientific view Shostak promotes is essentially
>that the question of whether any UFOs are extraterrestrial
>cannot be worth the valuable time of any serious scientist to
>investigate until there is proof that UFOs are extraterrestrial.

>Kind of a Catch-22 situation.


Lan,

Exactly right. Orthodox science, this ain't. Science can only
help us identify things, or help with photo analysis, etc.

Science has no real place to start with UFOs, until someone
comes up with a piece, an artifact, something at which science
can look and say, "Now, there's something really unusual."

The scientists who are a part of ufology have already ventured
into "undiscovered country". They tend to stick to orthodoxy
where they can. The rest of us non-scientists in the field may
not have the burden that scientists place upon themselves. But
since "we're all Bozos on this bus", we're left to duke it out
while "orthodox science" sits by giggling, or worse, ignoring.

Seth sees the answer as something to be discovered, among the
stars. Stan sees the answer as something to be uncovered, right
here on earth. Funny thing is, they could both be right.


Kyle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

                        The Fellowship Of 'The Rings'

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:50:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:10:19 -0400
Subject: The Fellowship Of 'The Rings'


Source: The Sunday Telegraph - U.K.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=3D/news/2004/07/25/ncrop25.xm=
l&sSheet=3D/news/2004/07/25/ixhome.html

07-25-04


The fellowship of the rings
By David Harrison

"It makes me chuckle sometimes," says John Lundberg, gazing
across a wheat field in central England. "If somebody had said
to me 10 years ago that today I'd be flying all over the world
making crop circles for big companies and being paid for it, I'd
have said they were mad."

This is a deeply disturbing statement. Crop circles, as we all
know, are supposed to be made by little green men from outer
space. They arrive in flying saucers, make intricate patterns in
wheat fields and then go home to Planet Zog, leaving us simple
earthlings to argue over what it all means.

Mr Lundberg is certainly a man, but he is neither little nor
green and his preferred means of transport is a bicycle, not a
spaceship. Yet he admits, freely and without a trace of
smugness, that he and his partners, Rod Dickinson and Wil
Russell, not only create crop circles but are making lots of
money from them. They are three men sorting out the wheat from
the cash, with not a UFO in sight. The only green men to be
found are those who envy the circle-makers' ability to exploit
their artistic talents.

Mr Lundberg has been making crop circles for 13 years. For most
of that time he has done it without a thought for profit, but in
the past few years the commercial work, mostly advertising, has
taken off.

The list of clients and commissions is impressive. Last year the
team went to America to do a series of projects for AMD, a
multibillion-pound computer-chip company. They created the eye
logo for Big Brother, the "reality television" programme; a car-
shaped pattern for a Mitsubishi publicity campaign; logos for
the album covers of dance bands; advertisements for Orange, the
mobile phone company; and an image of Dawn French, Steve Coogan
and David Jason for a digital television company.

They have branched out from wheat fields and now also work on
sand and grass. They recently won a commission for Hello Kitty
to produce the face of the Japanese company's cartoon cat in a
wheat field in Wiltshire, and are considering a project in Costa
Rica.

The rewards for the crop circle entrepreneurs are high and
growing. The AMD job was the group's most lucrative so far. Mr
Lundberg is unwilling to give precise details, but says the
contract was worth "tens of thousands of pounds". The budget for
the Big Brother campaign was estimated to be =A3250,000, and for
Orange's Wiltshire project about =A3100,000. "We are doing well,"
Mr Lundberg said. "We are all earning a very healthy living from
crop circles."

Landowners are benefiting too, receiving payments - from the
companies or circle-makers - for allowing their fields to be
used for the work. The income easily covers the damage to crops,
leaving farmers with a profit.

Richard Cowan, who farms 1,500 arable acres in Oxfordshire, has
twice - last year and in 2002 - allowed Mr Lundberg's company to
make crop circles on his land for Orange. He was unwilling to
say how much he was paid, but another farmer, in Wiltshire, said
that the going rate was "at least =A3500 for each circle and
sometimes much more". Mr Cowan said that the circles had caused
him to him to lose about =A3200 worth of crop, giving him a
"decent profit" from the deal.

He would be "unhappy" if people crept on to his land at night to
make crop circles - unless he was properly compensated. "Nobody
wants damage to their crops, but the key thing is whether you
are paid for it," he said. "I'm happy for my fields to be used
as long as I know about it and I get compensation. I used to
believe crop circles were made by aliens, but there's no money
in aliens. It's much better this way."

Mr Lundberg, his partners and a dozen or so "satellite" circle-
makers have not, however, abandoned their not-for-profit illicit
nocturnal forays into farmers' fields. His motive, he says, is
not to prove that people who think crop circles are made by
little green men, God or other "higher forces" are deluded
souls. His aim is to "use art to perpetuate the mystery and the
mythology about crop circles". He explains further: "We are
creating beautiful shapes but also mystery, allowing people to
experience the unexplained. That is why we never claim
authorship of the circles, because that would break the
mystery."

This is slightly confusing. He wants people to continue
speculating about aliens, while he knows that it's all tosh? Not
quite. "People have said they had mystical experiences at the
circle sites, so it is possible that we are acting as a catalyst
for those experiences, even though the circles are man-made," he
says. "Who knows, maybe we are being guided by external forces?"

The crop circle patterns are designed on computers and the
night-time raids are planned meticulously. The circle-makers go
out in small teams, armed with diagrams, planks of wood with
ropes looped through holes at either end - known as "stalk
stompers" - and 100ft tape measures.

The team chooses its targets carefully, preferring fields with
easy access and surrounded by higher ground so that its
creations will be easily visible in daylight. The crops can be
oilseed rape, barley or wheat, depending on the month. No
torches are used; the diagrams are read by moonlight.

When their work is done they leave silently, taking care not to
leave any signs of a human presence, knowing that their work
will cause a stir and attract hundreds of visitors and the media
the next day.

Unlike the lucrative commercial ventures carried out in
daylight, the night raids irritate many farmers. The most recent
crop circle appeared on Friday morning near Marlborough in
Wiltshire, the county that spawns 80 per cent of Britain's crop
circles. Yesterday the landowner was unavailable, but neighbours
said that he was furious.

"He had to get the combine harvester out and harvest a large
area because he didn't want hundreds of people pouring on to his
land to look at the crop circle," one neighbour said. "He was
incandescent with rage, calling the people who did it everything
under the sun."

Relations between landowners and "croppies" can be strained, and
in an attempt to defuse the tension the National Farmers Union
has drawn up a code of conduct with the Centre for Crop Circle
Studies. This includes advice such as: do not go on to private
land without permission from the farmer or landowner; leave a
calling card with your name and address; cause as little damage
to crops as possible; and do not smoke.

Not all landowners are unhappy, however. Some enterprising
farmers who wake up to find they have been "circled" make the
most of it by charging visitors =A31 or =A32 to have a look. One
Wiltshire farmer reportedly made =A315,000 from a particularly
elaborate crop circle in the 1990s.

The Country Landowners Association described the night raids by
circle-makers as "rural graffiti", but supported the idea of
circle-makers and farmers working together to generate income.
"It's innovative, entrepreneurial and good for rural
businesses," a spokesman said.

Crop circles have boosted tourism, particularly in Wiltshire,
where they attract thousands of visitors from all over the
world. The "believers" are also doing well, with many of them
busy writing books and speaking at conferences on the mysteries
and mythology of the circles. This weekend there is a crop
circles conference in Wiltshire.

The circles are included in tours of sacred sites and attract
visitors from America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan,
Ireland and continental Europe. The Barge Inn, a pub in the Vale
of Pewsey, its walls covered with crop circle photographs and
diagrams, has become a mecca for aficionados from all over the
world.

Mr Lundberg denies that his move to commercial circle-making
means that he and his fellow creators have "sold out". He says
that illicit circle-making is his main passion, his true art.
"If somebody comes along and offers me a lot of money to fly to
America and make crop circles then that's fine," he says. "I'm
not ashamed of that. It may not be art, but it helps to pay for
the stuff that is."

That stuff includes making documentaries about the paranormal, a
subject Mr Lundberg finds fascinating. He also draws a
distinction between his crop circle art - "to perpetuate the
mythology" - and that of others who make circles solely to
expose them as man-made.

One man in the other camp is Matthew Williams, from Bishops
Cannings, Wiltshire, who in November 2000 became the first
person to be prosecuted for circle-making. He was fined =A340 with
=A3100 costs by Kennet magistrates after admitting causing damage
to crops at West Overton. He says his objective is to
"demonstrate that no circle or effect is beyond human
capabilities".

The crop circle phenomenon began in Britain in the late 1970s
and Mr Lundberg and his team makes a sizeable contribution to
the 70 or so a year that appear in counties including Wiltshire,
Oxfordshire, Bedfordshire, Northamptonshire and Lincolnshire
during the crop circle "season" from April to September. About
250 are estimated to appear worldwide.

The "croppies", "cerealogists" or "researchers" - as circle
enthusiasts are known - accept that some are man-made, but
insist that many others are the work of "outside forces".

To them, the crop-makers are heretics, meddling with a mystical
power. Many claim to have had spiritual experiences on the sites
of the circles. Thousands visit them every year. Some claim to
have witnessed crop circles being created in 10 seconds, with no
human circle-maker in sight.

Colin Andrews, the author of the best-selling Circular Evidence,
the first book on crop circles, published in 1989, said that he
thought up to 90 per cent of all crop circles were probably man-
made.

"The other 10 per cent are not, and that is very important," he
says. "There is definitely something very odd going on. We don't
know what it is, but I believe there is some higher force
involved."

Mr Lundberg describes himself as "a second generation circle-
maker", following in the footsteps of his hero Doug Bowers, the
watercolour artist who, with Dave Chorley, a fellow artist,
started secretly making crop circles in Britain in the late
1970s. Mr Bowers was inspired by "a couple of crop circles
blamed on UFOs" while he was living in Australia. The pair
continued their hoaxes for 14 years before confessing their
authorship to a shocked - and, in some quarters, disappointed -
 world in 1991.

Yesterday Mr Bowers, now 80, expressed surprise at the
commercial turn taken by circle-makers. "We just wanted people
to think that a UFO had landed in a field, when it was really
just two blokes with a plank of wood. And it worked a treat.

"We'd make the crop circles and crowds would come to see them.
We used to mingle with them and listen to what they were saying,
all these so-called UFO experts spouting off about aliens. We
would look at each and burst out laughing.

"We did it for a laugh. Money - and even art - never came into
it. Who would have thought it would come to this?"








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:53:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:22:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Fleming


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:38:24 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate [was:

>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:18:22 -0700
>>Subject: Friedman/Shostak Debate [was: 'Hoax-Busting'...]

<snip>

>>I think the debate with Friedman and Shostak shows just exactly
>>how much investigation these 'skeptics' are really doing.
>>Friedman brought up some analysis on soil from a trace case and
>>Shostak, without even having examined the case, wrote it off as
>>someone possibly pouring water concentrated with salt in a
>>perfect circle. Hey! Now that's science! Please...

>Seth was given evidence outside his field. He didn't "write it
>off", he simply responded - not with breathless acquiescence,
>but with a logical alternative explanation. Not only is this
>exactly what "science" is, it is also what is known as "debate".

I've listened to the debate now, and I thought that he pretty
much did write it off.

Shostak suggested that the ground traces might have been hoaxed
(a reasonable thing to consider, of course). But then Stan
replied that the soil was affected 14 inches down and that it
wouldn't hold moisture, unlike the surrounding soil which turned
to mud when water was added. To that, Shostak replied that there
are lots of places in Georgia with soil that is resistant to
moisture.

It is _not_ reasonable to suppose that a hoaxer dug a circular
trench 10 feet in diameter and 14 inches deep and filled it with
water-resistant soil from another locale, carefully disguising
the trench so well that the anomalous soil would appear to have
been altered in situ. That's plain silly.

The sort of response I would expect from a responsible scientist
to Stan's description would be something like: "Well, that
certainly sounds interesting but I'd have to know more details
about the case and how it was analyzed before I reached a
conclusion." At least that's my reaction, since I don't know the
details of the case Stan mentioned. I doubt Shostak really
wanted to know any of the details.

Shostak also summarized Stan's attempt to describe the best UFO
evidence as "lots of people seeing things" or words to that
effect. And this was shortly after Stan described one of the
radar/visual cases. (Stan finally got Shostak to say the word
"radar", but never radar/visual).

Toward the end of the debate, Shostak said that the difference
between SETI and Ufology is that when SETI detects a signal,
everyone in the world with a radio telescope will be able to
verify it. In my opinion, this only indicates that the SETI
people have better pipe dreams than most Ufologists, not
necessarily better science.

For SETI to succeed with its current technology, some ET
civilization would have to deliberately direct a powerful
narrow-beam signal at Earth for hours in order to give
scientists around the world enough time to get to their scopes
and verify that the signal was both extraterrestrial and
artificial.

If a mother ship the size of an aircraft carrier went into low-
Earth orbit, everyone with eyes could verify it was there. But
I've never heard any UFO researchers say their research
activities consisted of staring up at the sky in hopes of seeing
the mother ship. The ones I know about tend to look at the
available evidence rather than wait for the undeniable proof to
be handed to them on a silver platter (or saucer, in this case).

It's not that I think SETI isn't worth doing at all; it's their
presumption that their methods are the only scientific way to
search for signs of extraterrestrial intelligence that I have a
problem with.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:50:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:29:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:14:39 +0000
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:38:24 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate [was: 'Hoax-Busting'...]

>>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:18:22 -0700
>>>Subject: Friedman/Shostak Debate [was: 'Hoax-Busting'...]

><snip>

>>Seth was given evidence outside his field. He didn't "write it
>>off", he simply responded - not with breathless acquiescence,
>>but with a logical alternative explanation. Not only is this
>>exactly what "science" is, it is also what is known as "debate".

>>You use "skeptic" as a pejorative term, when in this case it is
>>actually a good synonym for "scientist".

>I disagree. "Breathless acquiesence?" Please.

>You set up completely false alternatives.

>First, if it's totally outside his field, he has no business
>speculating at all. And when he automatically assumes that there
>has to be a mundane explanation, he makes the same logical error
>that many or most alleged scientists do. What he said clearly is
>not a "logical alternative" and his approach is not scientific.

>If he were scientific (and skeptical) he might ask what methods
>were used in the investigation and how thoroughly it was tested,
>the qualfications of the investigators, that sort of thing. He
>might advocate the need for careful, thorough, scientific
>investigation and testing and systematic analysis of similar
>cases. It would appear that, instead, he took the standard
>skeptibunker way out by uttering a knee-jerk negative comment
>that effectively denies the data but makes no effort to actually
>study or investigate it.


Dick,

Almost all of Stan's evidence stands far outside Seth's field of
study. Stan didn't mention a lot of astronomical evidence for
Seth to debate.

Handwriting analysis, soil testing, rings on the ground where
the grass doesn't grow, secretive government documents with
black programs, anecdotal evidence by former military men... all
of these things lie far outside Seth Shostak's field of study.
So why was he there?

He was asked to debate a known Advocate for the Ufology field.
He didn't prepare for a debate so much as a panel discussion -
his error.

There was even mention, beforehand, to the effect that Seth was
being led to the slaughter, a telling foreshadowing of what was
'expected'.

With no scientific - astronomy-related - basis on which to
dispute Stan's evidence, he fell into a novice trap... he
demanded proof rather than evidence. While this doesn't make him
right, it makes it impossible to debate, and makes it impossible
for me to agree with your disagreement. Seth Shostak a poor
debater? In this instance, yes. Seth Shostak a skeptibunker?
Hardly. He's too busy hunting for his own style of 'space rock'.
His arguments were evidence, not of a debunker in the midst, but
of a lack of preparation.

I agree with your description of Seth's statements, but disagree
with the motive you ascribe - our larger point. Seth appeared
to have no agenda, other than to engage. Stan is conversely a
very outspoken ariculate pundit for what he believes he has
proven.

Keep in mind that with SETI, there is _nothing_ to debate. They
do not state that they have received any transmission from
anywhere. They have no evidence that anyone is listening or
sending. They simply believe it is worth looking and waiting.
While Stan could - and did - argue that Seth is wasting time and
resources, that argument did - and does - nothing to advance the
questions they were supposedly debating.

The opening statements by each proved the irony of the "debate".
Seth seemed uncomfortable with the irony. Stan seemed to revel
in it.

I think, as Stan mentioned, that Seth would do well to better
prepare for his next debate.


Kyle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

             Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Stockstill

From: Bill Stockstill <size14d.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 05:56:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:35:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Stockstill


>From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:46:16 -0400
>Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

>>From: Bill Stockstill <size14d.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:39:58 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

<snip>

>>So you think if you tell a psychiatrist that you are abducted in
>>the middle of the night and aliens do experiements on you and
>>you show them scars to prove it he will give you a pill and send
>>you on your way? It doesn't work that way. Medication might be
>>part of it, but if you say certain words you are heading to a
>>facility, involutarily.

>I'm saying that the intent of the new effort to do mental health
>screening on all Americans may be surveillance and medication
>for any perceived "aberations" in the peoples' thought
>processes, but due to the difficulty of hospitalizing everyone
>who might be so diagnosed, mass hospitalization is not as likely
>an outcome as attempts at massive medication.

>In individual cases, yes. I can see where mentioning an alien
>abduction might be dangerous to one's continued freedom to move
>about. But in all honesty, if you're going to show a mental
>health worker a scar as "proof", maybe you don't need medication
>or hospitalization, but you do need a course in logic. A scar
>would only be proof that something happened to the skin at that
>site. It would not be proof that aliens were involved in making
>that "something" happen.


A scar can also be thought of by the MHW as a self-inflicted
wound, see them all the time. Again, MDs have to think that a
person _needs_ medication, regardless of some politician thinking
he's helping the drug companies. And the massive amount of
homeless people are mostly mentally-ill people that need to be
in an institution.

Millions of Americans on psych-meds means millions of MD visits
for follow-up.

I haven't seen this Bill but my guess is that it is a Federal
version of Bills that the States have, where you can be forced
to have a mental health exam if someone deems you a danger to
yourself or others. And, I don't think its a ploy to get
business for the drug companies. I think its a law the Bush
Admin. wants, to get a legal reason to detain someone without
access to legal counsel - i.e. terrorist suspects.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

              Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Mancusi

From: Bruno Mancusi <swissufo.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:24:50 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:38:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer - Mancusi


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:00:26 -0400
>Subject: Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:00:15 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:15:07 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

>>>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:28:42 -0400
>>>>Subject: Van Tassel's I Rode A Flying Saucer

>>>>While most contactee books from the 50s can be had for a
>>>>pittance, Van Tassel's "I Rode A Flying Saucer" seems to command
>>>>outrageous prices. A copy went on Ebay the other day for $496!:

>>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=268&item=6912970193

>>>>Two copies come up on Bookfinder.com for $800 and $1500 (sic)!

>>>>Anyone hazard a guess as to why this particular contactee book
>>>>is considered so valuable by some?

>>>I hesitate to speculate on why peoples' minds are so often
>>>clouded with cobwebs. What I will say is that I have copies that
>>>I will gladly sell for 1/4, 1/5, or 1/6 of those asinine
>>>prices.

>>As for the ebay-offered copy, I think it's status as a rare
>>first edition lends more to its value than its content.

>>And Dick, if yours are first editions, you got a deal. :)

>I don't know much about book collecting value when the First
>Edition was the only edition, but in this case I suspect the
>First Edition could easily have been the only one.


No, I have the 2nd one: "Second Edition Revised and Enlarged".
The copyright is 1952 but the previous owner of the booklet
(Heinrich Ragaz, Zurich) corrected it to 1953. It has 51 pages.


Bruno






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

                 Shostak: ET First Contact "Within 20 Years"

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 07:45:08 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:48:18 -0400
Subject: Shostak: ET First Contact "Within 20 Years"


Just ran across this fascinating article, yet another splendid
example of the arrogant ignorance of the SETI cultists assuming
aliens are stuck with radio, are not travelling here or anyplace
else, and are nowhere near us.

Computers will continue to improve, but radio is the only method
of long distance communication - except maybe for lasers which
won't be picked up by the Allen telescope!

Some contact!

Can't tell whether Seth is assuming the message is being sent to
us intentionally, or is leaked from the sending civilization.

In won't be too long before there will be little leakage from
Earth, as we send up to Satellites and back down to Earthlings,
but why let reality intrude on the nonsense?

-----

It was pointed out to me that my, UFOS: Challenge To SETI
Specialists, article is hard to find on my website so here is a
better URL:

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfufovsseti.html


Stan Friedman

-----

Source: New Scientist Magazine

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996189

07-24-04

SETI's Seth Shostak: ET First Contact 'within 20 Years'
By Marcus Chown, New Scientist
Saturday,


If intelligent life exists elsewhere in our galaxy, advances in
computer processing power and radio telescope technology will
ensure we detect their transmissions within two decades. That is
the bold prediction from a leading light at the Search for
Extraterrestrial Intelligence Institute

http://www.seti-inst.edu/

in Mountain View, California.

Seth Shostak, the SETI Institute's senior astronomer, based his
prediction on accepted assumptions about the likelihood of alien
civilisations existing, combined with projected increases in
computing power.Shostak, whose calculations will be published in
a forthcoming edition of the space science journal Acta
Astronautica:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/00945765

First estimated the number of alien civilisations in our galaxy
that might currently be broadcasting radio signals. For this he
used a formula created in 1961 by astronomer Frank Drake which
factors in aspects such the number of stars with planets, how
many of those planets might be expected to have life, and so on:
http://www.seti.org/seti/seti_science/Welcome.html

Shostak came up with an estimate of between 10,000 and one
million radio transmitters in the galaxy. To find them will
involve observing and inspecting radio emissions from most of
the galaxy's 100 billion stars.

The time necessary for this formidable task can be estimated
from the capabilities of planned radio telescopes such as SETI's
1-hectare Allen Telescope Array and the internationally run
Square Kilometre Array and expected increases in the power of
the microchips that sift through radio signals from space.

Alien Civilization

Shostak assumed that computer processing power will continue to
double every 18 months until 2015 -- as it has done for the past
40 years. From then on, he assumes a more conservative doubling
time of 36 months as transistors get too small to scale down as
easily as they have till now.

Within a generation, radio emissions from enough stars will be
observed and analysed to find the first alien civilisation,
Shostak estimates. But because they will probably be between 200
and 1000 light years away, sending a radio message back will
take centuries.

Paul Shuch, executive director of the SETI League, a separate
organisation in New Jersey, says Shostak's prediction ignores
one important factor. "It is altogether reasonable to project
the development of human technology, based upon past trends and
planned investments," he says. "But predicting the date, the
decade or even the century of contact is another matter because
the 'other end' of the communications link is completely out of
our hands. It would be nice to think we know something about the
existence, distribution, technology and motivation of our
potential communications partners in space, but in fact, we
don't."

Shostak admits that there are myriad uncertainties surrounding
his prediction, but he defends the basis on which he made it. "I
have made this prediction using the assumptions adopted by the
SETI research community itself."

---------------------------------------------------------------






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

                     UFO Research Site Video Clip Index

From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:39:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:08:45 -0400
Subject: UFO Research Site Video Clip Index


The free availability of UFO video clips and news reports on the
UFO Research website has been well received to date. Most of the
technical problems have been with the slower computers, dial-up
connections or people who don't have or use the Windows Media
Player version 9 codec.

Presently, there are 12 clips, each around 5-minutes in length,
covering various topics from Jerry Black's controversial and
determined focus on the Gulf Breeze UFO sightings to the
Washington DC 2002 UFO Intrusion containing the only nationally
televised news report on the incident broadcast by FOX News.

These 'video reports' were first used as installments on the
larger UFO UPDATE: LIVE! program produced by Bob Leibold of
Natural Light Productions, and making the transition to online
'stand-alone' clips have raised a number of issues. Many clips
were intended to be accompanied by panelist discussion and
commentary follow-up, so some of the clips, such as the Morehead
'Screaming Woman' segment, were not intended as 'stand alone'
reports and may appear incomplete.

Plans are underway to expand this Web feature with new reports
coming soon. These fresh installments will focus on current
investigations, UFO-related news events or developments and in-
depth interviews, produced primarily for Web distribution.

Special thanks to Sean Feeney of The Anomaly Response Network
for uploading and hosting the videos. The clips
can be viewed from the following location:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/videos.html


Thanks,

Kenny Young
UFO Research -  http://home.fuse.net/ufo
Cincinnati UFO Hotline: 513-588-4548







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

                         Bible Predicts Alien Attack

From: Donald Ratsch <sts48.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:58:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:54:29 -0400
Subject: Bible Predicts Alien Attack


Bible Predicts Alien Attack

http://home.comcast.net/~sts48/biblealienattack.html


1. Bible UFO Prophecy Scenario

2. Bible Proof

KJV=King James Version
GNB=Good News Bible Translation
NEB=New English Bible


The following scenario is based on research from the writings of
the Jewish prophets, Jeremiah and Daniel and in the New
Testament 1st John, Luke and Revelation. It is the opinion of
this writer that the following scenario will begin very soon.
This opinion is based on research into other areas of
eschatology and does not reflect a declaration of an exact day
or hour however. For this is forbidden!

1. Bible UFO Prophecy Scenario

And so because of the alien threat from outer space the nations
of the world unite and through the UN elect the first president
of the newly formed one-world government. The world president,
now having dictatorial powers, gives the order that all alien
saucers that violate the earth's air space be shot down using
the newly developed, multi-megawatt SBL Alpha Laser death-ray.
Sixty-six saucers are shot down and crash to earth because of
this new technology. The alien commander is surprised and filled
with awe and respect because of his adversary, the UN President
(antichrist). The nations of the world are adoringly grateful to
the world president for his effective and saving leadership in
defeating the aliens. They love his strong leadership.

2. Bible Proof

Does all this sound like a science fiction story? Not if
you believe in bible prophecy.

In Daniel 8:9,10 (KJV) it states, "and out of one of them came
forth a little horn (antichrist) which waxed exceeding great,
toward the south and toward the east and toward the pleasant
land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it
cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground and
stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince
of the host.."

Revelation 13:4 says, "And the world worshipped the beast
(antichrist) saying, who is like unto the beast? Who is able to
make war with him?"

As more truth about UFOs, alien abductions and UFO crashes come
to light through the world's TV and printed media, the cover-up
crumbles, then fear grips the nations of the world. But God
gives comfort to Israel concerning the alien threat as stated in
Jeremiah 10: 1,2 (GNB)

"People of Israel, listen to the message that the Lord has for
you. He says do not follow the ways of other nations, do not be
disturbed by unusual sights in the sky even though other nations
are terrified."

And in Luke 21:11 GNB) "there will be terrible earthquakes,
famine and plagues (aids, herpes, Ebola flesh eating viruses,
Small Pox, super-killing influenza) everywhere; there will be
strange and terrifying things coming from the sky "(UFOs).

The NEB translations says, "In the sky terrors and great
portents.." The American Standard St. Joseph Edition says,
"Awesome sights and mighty signs will come from the sky."

The question still arises. Will there indeed be an alien
invasion of earth? The bible seems to hint that the world's
people will perceive that an alien invasion is imminent.

In Luke 21:26 it says, "Men's hearts failing them (cardiac
arrests) for fear and for looking for those things which are
coming on the earth." (KJV)

Could the 1991 NASA STS-48 Starwars footage be a precursor to
Daniel 8:9,10?

Some UFO enthusiasts interpret the STS-48 footage (that was
shown on "Sightings", "Hardcopy", "Encounters", "The Larry King
Show", etc) as several alien spacecraft being fired on by U.S.
Starwars technology (probably Brilliant Pebbles) but missed.

Strangely, in 1991 the Alpha High Energy Laser (HEL) death-ray
demonstrated megawatt class power levels in a low pressure, space operation
environment:

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/sbl.htm

the same year as the STS-48 incident, 1991.

Many UFO researchers have wondered, are the extraterrestrials
good or evil? Are they sinners like us? Do they have the ability
to kill, lie, and do all the things that sinners here are
capable of doing?

The bible answers these questions in the affirmative.

In 1st John 5:10 it says, "the whole world lieth in wickedness."

In Strongs Exhaustive Concordance, page 43 in the Greek
Dictionary section, the word "World" in that particular verse
means Kosmos, which is the same as Cosmos or Universe. Therefore
what it really says then is, "The whole universe lieth in
wickedness (sin).

Alpha High Energy Laser death-ray:

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/sbl.htm


Rapture Prophecy:

http://home.comcast.net/~sts48/Rapture.html


Rapture Picture:

http://home.comcast.net/~sts48/Rapture.jpg


Donald B Ratsch Home Page:

http://home.comcast.net/~sts48/DonaldBRatsch.html

sts48.nul







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:25:02 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:00:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Warren


Hello Fellow Listerions,

I just finished listening to the Friedman/Shostak Debate (great
job Stan!)and before I jump in with both feet, which I'll do
later, I thought I'd just throw in a quick thought:

While Seth kept 'needling' Stan for the "best evidence" and not
seeming to hear Stan's answers, I thought that behavior quite
odd for an astromoner, whose many conclusions in that field are
based on "circumstantial evidence"; e.g., Seth mentioned during
the debate how many "extrasolar planets" have been discovered to
date, when the result of that statement is based on said
evidence.

That is to say: these extrasolar planets have 'not been seen'!
It is theorized that they are planets because of a 'star's
wobble' and assumed that is caused by a 'planetery mass' and
their gravitional effect on their respective suns. Hence the
evidence of the stated existence of all these 'planets' is
_circumstantial_!

I might point out that some of Stan's examples of evidence,
e.g., "physical trace evidence" also included "eye witnesses".
Seth, believes there are extrasolar planets based on
circumstantial evidence _without_ any eye witnesses, but when it
comes to Ufology, that evidence, in fact 'improved evidence"
isn't good enough for him.

This in my opinion is a very contradictory stance. What's good
enough for the goose should be good enough for the gander!


Regards,

Frank








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 25

                   Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:01:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:02:07 -0400
Subject: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution


As a totally unbiased observer (wink, wink), I think Stan
Friedman won the C2C debate with Seth Shostak on every major
question - except one. That question is why witnesses who claim
to have seen aliens report beings who are at least roughly human
in physical appearance.

Shostak, of course, thinks it's because the aliens are merely
products of the witnesses' imaginations and that people imagine
aliens would look something like themselves. Why people who
imagine things are so unimaginative is another question, but I
won't get into that.

Stan's response was that the similarities in body plan to humans
might be due to a common alien/human ancestry, humans being the
descendants of some ancient  colonists from another planet.
Shostak pointed out - quite correctly I think - that the DNA
evidence shows that humans are closely related to all other
forms of life on Earth and that any extraterrestrial "colonists"
would have to have been microbes that subsequently evolved into
human forms, as well as all the others that inhabit the planet.

I think parallel evolution is more viable than colonization as
an alternative explanation to the one that Shostak prefers.
Evolution theory supposes that creatures evolve to fit their
environment and that there are some constraints on the forms
they can take. One of the most radical examples of parallel
evolution I can think of is dolphins and other cetaceans.
Cetaceans are mammals and millions of years ago they lived on
dry land and had four legs like all other mammals. But when they
returned to the sea, they took on forms roughly similar to those
of fishes. Only vestiges of the hind legs remain in cetacean
anatomy. While biologists would consider the differences in
cetacean and fish body plans to be significant, the general
forms are similar enough that some people still think of whales
as a kind of fish.  Whales certainly look more like fish than
they do mammals to the untrained eye.

Bilateral symmetry is extremely common in most forms of
multicellular life. Arms, legs, and eyes come in pairs in many
species that are only remotely related to each other. While it
can't be proved, of course, it could be that evolutionary
constraints also tend make a body plan with binocular vision,
two arms, and two legs the preferred form for intelligent
creatures on any Earth-like planet. Bipedalism in particular has
often been cited as essential to the evolution of human
intelligence by biologists because it frees the upper limbs to
evolve dexterity needed for tool-making.

An extra pair of arms or eyes in the back of the head would
certainly be very useful, but there could be limitations on the
amount of information an organic brain can processes from
sensory organs and how many appendages it can control and still
have enough processing capacity left for intelligent thought.

So I think it's at least possible that extraterrestrials could
tend to have forms similar to humans not because they share a
common ancestry but because they live in the same universe and
their evolution has been governed by the same physics and
chemistry as ours has.

I'll stick by this theory unless the first aliens to land on the
White House Lawn or that send TV images of themselves to the
SETI people turn out to look like giant squids or something. I
used to be an H. P. Lovecraft fan, so I wouldn't be too
disappointed if ETs proved to be inhumanly and unimaginably
hideous. :)







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:55:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:35:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Fleming


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:38:02 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:52:33 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>>The orthodox scientific view Shostak promotes is essentially
>>that the question of whether any UFOs are extraterrestrial
>>cannot be worth the valuable time of any serious scientist to
>>investigate until there is proof that UFOs are extraterrestrial.

>>Kind of a Catch-22 situation.

>Exactly right. Orthodox science, this ain't. Science can only
>help us identify things, or help with photo analysis, etc.

>Science has no real place to start with UFOs, until someone
>comes up with a piece, an artifact, something at which science
>can look and say, "Now, there's something really unusual."

I'm not so sure that puzzling out the incomprehensible operating
principles of ET hardware would necessarily be any more
appealing to scientists than working with the types of evidence
we already have.

I think the UFO question can offer a strong attraction to
orthodox scientists specifically _because_ the available
evidence tends to be indirect and doesn't provide obvious
answers to the casual observer. It's more of a challenge that
way and at least some scientists like an intellectual challenge.
Ideally, they _all_ should.

Atmospheric physicist James McDonald and NASA chief scientist
Paul Hill are two good historical examples of scientists taking
up that challenge. And there are a few contemporary ones who
contribute to this List. I think the fundamental problem is that
scientists tend to view the attraction of UFO research as a
potentially fatal attraction as far as their careers are
concerned. But it's not because UFO research can't be
intellectually rewarding. What it's badly lacking are the
social, financial, and political rewards of so-called
"mainstream" scientific fields. UFO research offers a lot more
punishment than it does rewards in that regard.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:07:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:40:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Hall


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:50:53 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:14:39 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>Almost all of Stan's evidence stands far outside Seth's field of
>study. Stan didn't mention a lot of astronomical evidence for
>Seth to debate.

>Handwriting analysis, soil testing, rings on the ground where
>the grass doesn't grow, secretive government documents with
>black programs, anecdotal evidence by former military men... all
>of these things lie far outside Seth Shostak's field of study.
>So why was he there?

>He was asked to debate a known Advocate for the Ufology field.
>He didn't prepare for a debate so much as a panel discussion -
>his error.

>There was even mention, beforehand, to the effect that Seth was
>being led to the slaughter, a telling foreshadowing of what was
>'expected'.

>With no scientific - astronomy-related - basis on which to
>dispute Stan's evidence, he fell into a novice trap... he
>demanded proof rather than evidence. While this doesn't make him
>right, it makes it impossible to debate, and makes it impossible
>for me to agree with your disagreement. Seth Shostak a poor
>debater? In this instance, yes. Seth Shostak a skeptibunker?
>Hardly. He's too busy hunting for his own style of 'space rock'.
>His arguments were evidence, not of a debunker in the midst, but
>of a lack of preparation.

>I agree with your description of Seth's statements, but disagree
>with the motive you ascribe - our larger point. Seth appeared
>to have no agenda, other than to engage. Stan is conversely a
>very outspoken ariculate pundit for what he believes he has
>proven.

>Keep in mind that with SETI, there is _nothing_ to debate. They
>do not state that they have received any transmission from
>anywhere. They have no evidence that anyone is listening or
>sending. They simply believe it is worth looking and waiting.
>While Stan could - and did - argue that Seth is wasting time and
>resources, that argument did - and does - nothing to advance the
>questions they were supposedly debating.

>The opening statements by each proved the irony of the "debate".
>Seth seemed uncomfortable with the irony. Stan seemed to revel
>in it.

>I think, as Stan mentioned, that Seth would do well to better
>prepare for his next debate.


Kyle,

Other than the fact that I didn't attribute any "motives" to
Shostak at all, I don't find a whole lot to disagree with here.
All I pointed out was that his behavior was typical of ill-
informed (i.e., ignorant) skeptibunkers, and it certainly was
not "scientific".My statements were all addressed to your
comment that he was only being a scientist/behaving
scientifically.

And if he fails to prepare properly for a debate/discussion,
that is only further evidence of a made-up mind that can't be
bothered with evidence and could care less. CSICOP-types, like
him, feel that they know The Truth (UFOs are a lot of nonsense
and advocates for them are, ipso facto, nutty or dishonest).


 - Dick








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

              Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Denzler

From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:34:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:41:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Denzler


>From: Bill Stockstill <size14d.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 05:56:54 -0400
>Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

>>From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:46:16 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

<snip>

>I haven't seen this Bill but my guess is that it is a Federal
>version of Bills that the States have, where you can be forced
>to have a mental health exam if someone deems you a danger to
>yourself or others. And, I don't think its a ploy to get
>business for the drug companies. I think its a law the Bush
>Admin. wants, to get a legal reason to detain someone without
>access to legal counsel - i.e. terrorist suspects.


Bingo.

Brenda








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                               Close-Up Photos

From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:55:05 -0400
Subject: Close-Up Photos


I just watched the interview with Jerry Black on the UFO
Research site, and it got me to thinking about the state of
'close-up photos'.

Basically, it would seem that all the close-up photos of UFOs,
from Adamski through Walters, Meier, Allende, are hoaxes. Unless
I'm mistaken, all close-up photos are also taken by self-
proclaimed contactees/abductees, and purport to be of landed or
near-landed objects.

A more interesting catagory may be called "mid-range photos",
which are airborn objects at some distance, but still showing
structure, as opposed to the mass of ufo photos/videos, which
are at great distace and show featureless lights, blobs, etc.

Mid-range material would include ones like the Trent photos from
way back, and the interesting "red object" filmed a few years
ago by Anthony Woods.

There are certainly many reports of there being close range
photos in government possession, for example Daniel Sheehan's
testimony for the Disclosure Project, and many others.

Something seems wrong with all this to me - why has there not
been, in the last 50 years, any reasonable close-up photos in
the public domain? Is there some kind of law of UFOs that they
will never approach the ground if someone has a camera? Or, even
more ridiculously, only if the camera operator is a military
employee with top-secret clearance who will not divulge the
photos? Of all the abductees and near-abductees, no one had a
camera? Or is it that the interdimensional nature of abductions
means there is no physical object to photograph, and the
physical objects flying around in the skies and detectable by
radar are a different phenomena - possibly related, possibly
unrelated?


Dante








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:24:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:59:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Fleming


>From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:28:29 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>What is _their_ _best_ _evidence_?

>Zero. Nada.

>And they have the gall to play it dumb when we show them some
>evidence?

>What's missing?

OK, one final post and then I'll shut up for a while.....

You make a good point and it would have been interesting if Stan
had fired that question at Shostak. It sure would have put
Shostak on the spot. But I don't think it's completely true that
SETI has detected _no_ evidence; they have in fact occasionally
gotten some interesting signals. The "WOW" signal is the most
famous example.

The problem apparently was that in every case the signal didn't
last long enough to provide the SETI scientists much to analyze
or for multiple listening stations to confirm, and further
signals were never again detected from the same point in the
sky. These conceivably could have been stray ET transmissions
intended for someone else that SETI picked up accidentally. The
SETI purists mostly ignore them because they don't pass their
all-or-nothing test of what constitutes an alien signal that
they can announce to the United Nations as the irrefutable proof
of ET contact.

To be fair, I do recall reading that some people in the SETI
League (or the SETI Institute, I can't remember which) are
trying to put together a survey report about all the most
interesting signals they've gotten over the years. I'd
definitely be interested in reading it. It seems more realistic
-- and basically more scientific -- to organize and study all
the accumulated data as a whole, even if it's inconclusive, than
to wait around for the one loud and long signal that meets all
of the rigorous (or maybe just rigid) standards of irrefutable
proof.

However, the idea of considering what the preponderance of the
available SETI evidence might tell us begins to sound something
like the approach taken by UFO researchers. That might not sit
well with those SETI scientists who are the most intent on
separating themselves absolutely from "UFO believers" in the
public's perception.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                Re: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution -

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:25:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:02:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution -


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:01:54 -0500
>Subject: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution

>Bilateral symmetry is extremely common in most forms of
>multicellular life. Arms, legs, and eyes come in pairs in many
>species that are only remotely related to each other. While it
>can't be proved, of course, it could be that evolutionary
>constraints also tend make a body plan with binocular vision,
>two arms, and two legs the preferred form for intelligent
>creatures on any Earth-like planet. Bipedalism in particular has
>often been cited as essential to the evolution of human
>intelligence by biologists because it frees the upper limbs to
>evolve dexterity needed for tool-making.

>An extra pair of arms or eyes in the back of the head would
>certainly be very useful, but there could be limitations on the
>amount of information an organic brain can processes from
>sensory organs and how many appendages it can control and still
>have enough processing capacity left for intelligent thought.


Some quoted material found at:

http://www.vision3d.com/vocvis.html#binocular

"STEREO VISION: (stereopsis or stereoscopic vision): a byproduct
of good binocular vision; vision wherein the separate images
from two eyes are successfully combined into one three-
dimensional image in the brain. For the complete scoop, see the
illustrated page on:"

http://www.vision3d.com/stereo.html

Finally, with form follows function whereby two eyes have the
most efficient arrangement for a brain with two halves. As the
human animal evolved as an predator..the eyes are arranged in
forward setup,, to allow the predator greater focus on its prey.
You will note two things,,1. Prey species have their eyes on the
sides of their heads etc.. like a rabbit,,and a wider view when
looking for 2. Predators etc.. a Chef and his/her stew recipe.


Bon Appetit,

John







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                  Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Chapman

From: Mary Chapman <alfie107.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:00:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:08:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Chapman


Hello Donald,

I would like to address this post of yours from a different
perspective.

On Sunday, July 25, 2004, at 08:54 AM, UFO UpDates - Toronto
wrote:

>From: Donald Ratsch <sts48.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:58:58 -0400
>Subject: Bible Predicts Alien Attack

>Bible Predicts Alien Attack

>http://home.comcast.net/~sts48/biblealienattack.html

>1. Bible UFO Prophecy Scenario

>2. Bible Proof

>KJV=King James Version
>GNB=Good News Bible Translation
>NEB=New English Bible

>The following scenario is based on research from the writings of
>the Jewish prophets, Jeremiah and Daniel and in the New
>Testament 1st John, Luke and Revelation. It is the opinion of
>this writer that the following scenario will begin very soon.
>This opinion is based on research into other areas of
>eschatology and does not reflect a declaration of an exact day
>or hour however. For this is forbidden!

>1. Bible UFO Prophecy Scenario

>And so because of the alien threat from outer space the nations
>of the world unite and through the UN elect the first president
>of the newly formed one-world government. The world president,
>now having dictatorial powers, gives the order that all alien
>saucers that violate the earth's air space be shot down using
>the newly developed, multi-megawatt SBL Alpha Laser death-ray.
>Sixty-six saucers are shot down and crash to earth because of
>this new technology. The alien commander is surprised and filled
>with awe and respect because of his adversary, the UN President
>(antichrist). The nations of the world are adoringly grateful to
>the world president for his effective and saving leadership in
>defeating the aliens. They love his strong leadership.

>2. Bible Proof

>Does all this sound like a science fiction story? Not if
>you believe in bible prophecy.

Bible Prophecy meaning warnings or absolutes? Who is the best
interpreters of Bible Prophecy, especially when we humans
obviously have many biases and filters from which our
conclusions are based? My interpretation of the below verses
might very well set up a completely different scenario. It seems
to me that since this is truly a personal interpretation_and
there is no one who can attest to your_or my_validity of
interpretation, and that the story is in the eye of the
beholder.

Any accounting of these prophecies must therefore follow on the
heels of pre-determined conclusions. It's like reverse
technology, whereby you have the finished product and must then
break it apart to find the core workings. Most likely, however,
when speaking of_mental constructs_we cannot be certain of the
intentions OR conclusions. Just because someone tells us that
this means that, or that means this, does not make it true.

These prophecies could very well be referring to mental aspects
rather than physical manifestations. I'm of the impression that
physical activities _follow_ mental persuasions, and therefore
the Bible is more esoterical for the evolved Man of today. These
are my opinions of course, but with this in mind, please follow
my interpretations of the following passages.

>In Daniel 8:9,10 (KJV) it states, "and out of one of them came
>forth a little horn (antichrist) which waxed exceeding great,
>toward the south and toward the east and toward the pleasant
>land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it
>cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground and
>stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince
>of the host.."

My interpretation: And out of the mind of Man came forth a
little idea, that lamented the possibilities of greatness and
understanding.

This redeemed the Man in his own mind, and it impressed him
greatly.

He had a lofty idea and he went forth with this as his main
objective.

>Revelation 13:4 says, "And the world worshipped the beast
>(antichrist) saying, who is like unto the beast? Who is able to
>make war with him?"

My interpretation: And the Man put great pride and stock into
his own ideas. Who would judge against these great ideas for
they surely would work?

>As more truth about UFOs, alien abductions and UFO crashes come
>to light through the world's TV and printed media, the cover-up
>crumbles, then fear grips the nations of the world. But God
>gives comfort to Israel concerning the alien threat as stated in
>Jeremiah 10: 1,2 (GNB)

>"People of Israel, listen to the message that the Lord has for
>you. He says do not follow the ways of other nations, do not be
>disturbed by unusual sights in the sky even though other nations
>are terrified."

My interpretation: Man of high standard, become aware! Do not
follow every Tom, Dick and Harry; do not buy into other people's
fears. Stay the course and follow your heart, which may or may
not coincide with your reasoning mind. Be intuitive.

>And in Luke 21:11 GNB) "there will be terrible earthquakes,
>famine and plagues (aids, herpes, Ebola flesh eating viruses,
>Small Pox, super-killing influenza) everywhere; there will be
>strange and terrifying things coming from the sky "(UFOs).

My interpretation: Man, your reasoning mind will try to dissuade
you from following your intuition. It will give you all kinds
of horrible scenarios in order to control you, and coerce you
into sticking with the PROGRAM!

>The NEB translations says, "In the sky terrors and great
>portents.." The American Standard St. Joseph Edition says,
>"Awesome sights and mighty signs will come from the sky."

>The question still arises. Will there indeed be an alien
>invasion of earth? The bible seems to hint that the world's
>people will perceive that an alien invasion is imminent.

>In Luke 21:26 it says, "Men's hearts failing them (cardiac
>arrests) for fear and for looking for those things which are
>coming on the earth." (KJV)

My interpretation: Men fail to listen to their inner voice and
become saturated with mind-numbing repetitious blather from an
unenlightened society; a society who fails to think for
themselves and suffer the consequences physically and mentally.

>Could the 1991 NASA STS-48 Starwars footage be a precursor to
>Daniel 8:9,10?

>Some UFO enthusiasts interpret the STS-48 footage (that was
>shown on "Sightings", "Hardcopy", "Encounters", "The Larry King
>Show", etc) as several alien spacecraft being fired on by U.S.
>Starwars technology (probably Brilliant Pebbles) but missed.

>Strangely, in 1991 the Alpha High Energy Laser (HEL) death-ray
>demonstrated megawatt class power levels in a low pressure, space operation
>environment:

>http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/sbl.htm

>the same year as the STS-48 incident, 1991.

>Many UFO researchers have wondered, are the extraterrestrials
>good or evil? Are they sinners like us? Do they have the ability
>to kill, lie, and do all the things that sinners here are
>capable of doing?

>The bible answers these questions in the affirmative.

>In 1st John 5:10 it says, "the whole world lieth in wickedness."

>In Strongs Exhaustive Concordance, page 43 in the Greek
>Dictionary section, the word "World" in that particular verse
>means Kosmos, which is the same as Cosmos or Universe. Therefore
>what it really says then is, "The whole universe lieth in
>wickedness (sin).

My interpretation: The _mind_ of Man is steeped in error about
his natural state of being, which, IMHO contains within itself
the ability to discern and think for itself. Wicked is he who
fails to meet his inherent standard of ethics. But this is an
internal judgement Man places upon himself. Many know right from
wrong, but continue to usurp their own conscience for any number
of reasons.


Well, I'm not saying my ideas are more or less right than your
ideas, but I thought it imperative to know that we each
contribute to this world, bringing new light to any subject.
Reducing prophecy to the physical world and to personal
interpretations can be misleading and harmful if we are seeking
truth and understanding in any field of study, Ufology included,
in my opinion.


Thank you,

Mary







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                 Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:44:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:34:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Stanford


>From: Donald Ratsch <sts48.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:58:58 -0400
>Subject: Bible Predicts Alien Attack

>Bible Predicts Alien Attack

>http://home.comcast.net/~sts48/biblealienattack.html

>1. Bible UFO Prophecy Scenario

>2. Bible Proof

List,

That kind of 'prediction' is unadulterated B.S.! The attack
humankind should actually worry about is the one against
rationality and scientific thinking such as exemplified in that
contrived regurgitation of writing(s) taken as 'revealed',
infallible, and as the literal Word Of God.


Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:52:07 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:45:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:51:32 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:36:06 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:29:00 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

><snip>

>>If Stan is right, the aliens could well be hampering both sides,
>>working to prevent disclosure, and jamming or inserting
>>obscuring noise into SETIs signals intentionally. If so, what
>>hope do we have against such advanced tech - on either front?


>Kyle,

>Occam's Razor in science tells us we cannot jump to the more
>complicated scenario (or hypothesis) before eliminating the
>simpler scenarios. The simpler scenario that the aliens are not
>masking or jamming their signals has to be investigated first
>and given a fair chance of being tested out before we abandon
>the idea. It is often hard to tell how much effort should be put
>in before giving up. Usually the partisans in favor of an idea
>will go down fighting for their cause until every avenue has
>been exhausted (along with themselves).

>So far only SETI theorists have ever tried to develop consistent
>models or scenarios for alien behavior. UFO "science" never
>advances because ufologists refuse to develop any consistent
>models of alien behavior. Ufologists give up almost immediately
>under various sorry excuses that alien technology would be "so
>advanced" it would be like "magic," that alien behavior would be
>so "alien" that no one can fathom it. This is getting to be like
>postulating aliens are like God yet even God can be studied and
>the whole field of doing so is called "theology" and indeed one
>major branch of it called "natural theology" led directly to the
>establishment of modern science in the Middle Ages. But
>ufologists refuse to engage in the theoretical studies, they
>radically cling to extreme empiricism and denounce anyone who
>tries to do theoretics.

I would suggest that my roughly 10,000 word paper "A Scientific
Approach to Flying Saucer Behavior" which was included in the
Proceedings of the Symposium sponsored by the AIAA and the WFS,
Sept. 27, 1975, deals with the subject as did my earlier paper
"Ufology and the Search for ET Life".

The first is included in my "Flying Saucers: 4 Scientific
Papers" only $4. for UFORI.

I have been enunciating a pretty clear picture of alien behavior
for many years. ETs using more advanced propulsion technology
than we have yet acquired in our very short technological
history, have been traipsing around the neighborhood for at
least thousands if not millions of years.

They are not interested in casual chit chat with SETI cultists
or ufologists. They have their own fish to fry certainly
including checking on our military technologies, our radar and
weapons systems.

Some of the craft are abducting earthlings for genetic testing
perhaps for hybridization, perhaps for PhD Theses. They avoid
being offensive except when we threaten them.

They obviously know we know they are here. Our manifestations of
advanced technology especially with regard to nuclear weapons,
rocketry and electronics give them good reason to be concerned,
considering our primitive tribal warfare behavior, and give them
good reason to try to assure that we don't go out there with our
hostility.

Occam's razor... the simplest explanation for the structured
craft observed all over the planet, sometimes on the gound, and
often behaving in ways we only wish we could duplicate, is that
they are intelligently controlled ET vehicles.....

Why would any rational person expect to be able to determine
answers to a whole host of questions - origin, age, race, reason
for travel, attitude about Earthlings, etc - by observing a large
airplane passing overhead?

SETI specialists certainly provide a consistent and very simple
minded picture of alien behavior:

- Some aliens are out there somewhere.

- Some are producing electromagnetic signals that SS are sure
that, within a lifetime or two, they will be able to intercept
and interpret.

- The aliens are more than 200 lightyears away, do not travel to
other stars, cannot threaten each other or us, and we are no
threat to them.

- If they were coming here, which they are not, there would be
no reason for governments to cover up the data they have
gathered and the aliens would, of course, give us their
technology and all their secrets.

- Seth says (with absolutely no evidence whatsoever) there are
between 10,000 and one million transmitters out there. Thus by
far the overwhelming majority (99.999%) of stars in the Milky
Way do not have transmitters near them.

- We are so lucky to have SS working so hard to deliver the
message to us... this isn't even good science fiction.

My conclusion is that our neighborhood is crawling with advanced
civilizations who have colonized the neighborhood ages ago and
travel fairly casually throughout out the neighborhood (the
thousand or so stars within 54 light years of which more than 40
are similar to the sun) as I travel to other continents far more
casually then my grandparents did 100 years ago.

It is also my position that, if I am going to talk about SETI, I
ought to read the work of its loudest exponents such as Drake,
Shostak, Sagan, etc., as I have.

It is their position that since they know, by their special
divination skills, that there is not any evidence relating to
flying saucers, that they need not read anything except tabloid
nonsense and that only for amusement. If there was any science,
they would, of course, have known about it years ago and easily
demolished any claims because it is a given that there is no
evidence for ET visitations.

One can see why I say "Silly Effort To Investigate".


Stan Friedman







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:45:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:50:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:28:08 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:51:32 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>>So far only SETI theorists have ever tried to develop consistent
>>models or scenarios for alien behavior. UFO "science" never
>>advances because ufologists refuse to develop any consistent
>>models of alien behavior. Ufologists give up almost immediately
>>under various sorry excuses that alien technology would be "so
>>advanced" it would be like "magic," that alien behavior would be
>>so "alien" that no one can fathom it. This is getting to be like
>>postulating aliens are like God yet even God can be studied and
>>the whole field of doing so is called "theology" and indeed one
>>major branch of it called "natural theology" led directly to the
>>establishment of modern science in the Middle Ages. But
>>ufologists refuse to engage in the theoretical studies, they
>>radically cling to extreme empiricism and denounce anyone who
>>tries to do theoretics.

>This actually is unfair and untrue, Brad. Thoughtful ufologists
>have written interestingly on the extraterrestrial hypothesis,
>and they have every right to resent sweeping charges like the
>ones you hurl at "ufologists". Every single one of them? Come
>on. And frankly, a degree of modesty about what we can infer
>about an alien intelligence strikes me as commendable, not
>something to be vehemently condemned as a posture to be taken
>only by idiots and fools.

Jerry,

You have really resorted to uncalled-for name-calling to accuse
me of "CSICOP-style polemics" (below) just because I put
together a thoughtful and actually quite incontestable critique
of the utter failure of ufology to develop a theoretical basis
for modeling and testing the ETH. Indeed I would have thought
that the facts were not even a matter of any real controversy or
dispute.

Jerry, this is kind of like screaming that you "have too built a
lot of pyramids!" and I just say "well point just one pyramid
out to me and don't point me to a pile of stone chips!" My
predction is that you will continue to point out sorry piles of
stone chips as "pyramids." There is potential here for
converting the stone chips into a Great Pyramid but we're a long
way off and people are going to have to stop smashing other
people's efforts to develop a consistent methodology of building
something. And I might add, stop attacking those who quite
rightly complain about the malicious smashing routines that go
on year after year.

Why don't you just quote some passages - from someone, from
_anyone_ in ufology - that prove me wrong? It would be very
instructive and I think amusing.

But first, let's review what I said and what the criteria for a
true scientific hypothesis involves, as it relates to ufology,
and how ufology consistently undermines and attacks theory
development:

1. Consistency of model. I have pointed out again and again in
numerous postings over the years that those in ufology who start
on a promising avenue of theory - or model-development always
get shouted down because they allegedly failed to "consider the
magic- like level of technology" the alleged aliens must have.
Sometimes the UFOlogist struggling to develop a self-consistent
model suddenly injects the "show-stopping magic-level
technology" argument himself into his own reasoning - because he
knows he is going to be criticized by someone using this bogus
argument as a weapon - and he stops what he is doing, himself,
on his own accord. And it always ends right there.

Call it self-censorship in those cases, a reflexive response due
to the hostile climate in ufology to anyone who tries to pursue
an internally _consistent_ model of what alien behavior might
look like at say, a 22nd century technology level, who allegedly
fails to consider 30th and 100th century technology (which would
mean introducing gross _inconsistency_ into the 22nd century model
and a violation of Occam's Razor). Or anyone who tries to begin
first with human behavioral models and then shuts down because
he thinks (or someone attacks him for) failing to consider that
"alien behavior" must and can only be so "alien" that we cannot
understand it. So just drop whatever the hell you were doing and
go into paralysis about any kind of modeling of ETH or alien
behavior, period. This has happened so many times right here on
UFO UpDates that I am surprised that anyone would dispute it.

2. Testable model. I hope this is not controversial. It's just
science, you know. If it's untestable, it is non-scientific. If
an ETH model does not yield any testable ideas then it really
isn't science yet. It does not have to be some great elaborate
deal, but it has to be something, preferably numerical,
quantitative. For example, a Military Reconnaissance Model of
ETH would predict certain things about ET behavior, such as use
of stealth, patterns of observation, non-contact with human
culture, etc. etc. But there would be specific quantitative
estimates about the patterns to expect based on a specific given
alien technology level (not confusingly mixing 22nd century
levels with 30th century, etc.), distance traveled, use or non-
use of bases on moon or planets or underwater, etc. Also
patterns to expect _not_ to see (e.g., if it is a military recon
one would _not_ expect landings on the White House lawn, at UN
HQ, etc.).

3. Comparison against other competing _self-consistent_ models.
There needs to be at least an awareness of the existence of
competing models both within ETH and outside ETH (such as
interdimensional, inner earth, time travel, spiritual,
paranormal/occult, etc.) and some kind of discussion so that ETH
theory modeling is not done in a vacuum, but not with bringing
in "show-stoppers" either.

>For a guide to how ufologists have thought about the ETH over
>the years, one could do worse than start with my survey
>"Extraterrestrial Hypothesis and ufology" in the UFO
>encyclopedia. In recent years particularly good, solid writing
>on UFOs and the ETH has been done by Michael Swords and Edward
>Ashpole. One may agree or disagree with their conclusions, but
>they in no way merit CSICOP-style polemics about the stupidity
>of ufologists. This sort of thing is truly tiresome, and I would
>expect better of an old friend and valued colleague.

Prove it Jerry. Don't just give me a bunch of hot-air rhetoric.
Quote for me and the list the supposed UFO ETH theoretical
development.

You can't do it, Jerry, and you know it. I am not talking about
just "writing about" ETH. I am talking about ETH development
that does NOT interject Arthur C. Clarke's dictum about aliens
having technology so advanced it would be "indistinguishable
from magic." Or does _not_show-stop everything by saying well,
the aliens are too "alien" for us to think about scientifically.
This is illogical inconsistency in theoretical reasoning and a
violation of Occam's Razor.

You do not have to quote hundreds and hundreds of pages (there
aren't any anyway, your two encyclopedia articles, not one,
total only 26 pages, for example, one is by Swords on ETH &
Science and I include it to actually help your page count).

Also do not cite a SETI theorist such as Ashpole as that is not
cricket. My point had been that SETI theorists do more of this
UFO-type theoretical work than UFO researchers do, because the
UFO community shouts down anyone who tries to develop consistent
models, shouts them down with "magic levels" and "alien-ness."
So ufology is permanently shut down in theory development. Does
not mean that attempts are not made, just that the attempts are
always shut down for the same emotional tirade-type polemic
about alien "magic" and alien 'alienness." Or in this case your
"CSICOP-style polemic" slur against me.

Here let me help you by quoting from your own encyclopedia
article -- as this will make it clear why you don't quote it to
prove me wrong, because it proves my point. The two leading
critics of ETH, Vallee and Hynek, are quoted and paraphrased in
your "ETH and its Critics" section. To make their criticism of
ETH, Hynek and Vallee necessarily had to construct some
rudimentary models of alien behavior and operational activities
that can be tested against the UFO experience and what we know.
This kind of ETH model-building is what needs to continue on an
ongoing basis and not be shot down, shouted down, or shut down
by the "magical alien technology" and "alienating alienness"
tirades. It does not matter whether the ETH models are done by
critics or proponents but the point is that proponents are
required by the scientific method to construct such theoretical
models of UFO/alien behavior, so it's in their best interests
scientifically speaking.

However, if pro-ETH advocates are refusing to develop models
because of ulterior motives stemming from their knowing or
sensing that the process will refute the ETH explanation of
UFO's, then that would explain the venom and the emotion that is
constantly hurled at anyone trying to construct consistent
quantitative ETH modeling (though "explaining" it does not
justify the abusive tactics used). Pro-ETH partisans strive to
protect ETH from refutation by making ETH unfalsifiable,
thinking that that makes it a stronger scientific argument when
in fact unfalsifiable theories are not scientific. It's a
classic error in scientific methodology. In any case you can
"protect" ETH to a certain degree by setting up a variety of ETH
models with differing numerical estimates of expected alien
behavior. But ETH proponents do not want to do that either.

The strongest scientific theories are the ones that take the
most daring risks in proposing numerical predictions that may
make-or-break the whole theory. Less strong but still important
are the theories that can't or don't make the "make-or-break"
predictions (and the "predictions" do NOT have to be of the
future but can be of what is expected to be found by looking at
past history of observational data). In those cases, theories or
models are proposed that make numerical estimates of what one
expects to be the case, but in terms of probability and not as
crucial all-or-nothing experiments in a lab, or whatever. But
the price that is paid for such allowances is that the whole
theory/model is not deemed as strong. A theory or model can
survive numerical disproofs, by using ad hoc reformulations of
the theory, and there is a long "grace period" allowed to give
the theory and its prononents lots of additional chances, but
with the stipulation that the constantly reformulated versions
will be looked at with less and less indulgence over time, as
being increasingly weaker than the original bolder version.

To defeat Vallee's numbers argument against ETH, you interjected
Aime' Michel's alien "magic" argument! You did exactly what I
have been complaining about (though without the excess and
vitriol that typifies ETH partisans here on UpDates). You
stopped the ETH model development in your own encyclopedia with
_both_ the "magic" alien technology and the "aliens are too
alien to understand" arguments! You proved my point.

Here is what you wrote, omitting the Michel quotation since your
Michel _paraphrase_ is more to the point (vol. 1, p. 386b):

CLARK: "The widespread notion that strangeness quotient
       alone eliminated the ETH did not sway Aime Michel....
       For extraterrestrials to visit us, they would have to
       accomplish what to us is impossible: the traversing
       of deep space. Thus, Michel reasoned, the
       intelligences and their technology would necessarily
       be so far beyond our ken as to seem magical or
       irrational."

There it is from your own monumental encyclopedic compendium of
UFO research - the "magic" level of alien technology and the
"beyond our ken" alienness arguments, the thought-terminating
killers that stop all theoretical ETH development in UFO
research.


Brad Sparks








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

             Re: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution - Weber

From: Bill Weber <wweber1.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:55:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:52:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution - Weber


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:01:54 -0500
>Subject: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution

>As a totally unbiased observer (wink, wink), I think Stan
>Friedman won the C2C debate with Seth Shostak on every major
>question - except one. That question is why witnesses who claim
>to have seen aliens report beings who are at least roughly human
>in physical appearance.

>Shostak, of course, thinks it's because the aliens are merely
>products of the witnesses' imaginations and that people imagine
>aliens would look something like themselves. Why people who
>imagine things are so unimaginative is another question, but I
>won't get into that.

Hi,

I've always read this "humanoid" element as an argument for the
opposing view. "Why would people with otherworldly imaginings
usually pick a humanoid appearence?" it goes. This is the first
time I've read it the other way around, the assumption being
that imaginers are simple-minded copy-cats. Is this really the
starting point for this conversation? Am I missing something?


Best,

Bill








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:59:40 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:01:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 16:05:07 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:51:32 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>I avoid the 'spinning whirlpool of speculation' by just sticking
>to the basics of life.

>It's either predator or prey. All life is doing is surviving on
>several stages: create, maintain.

>We humans are both predator and prey. Actually along with our
>most lethal and long term enemy the Mosquito, we're probably our
>own leading cause of death.

>So we look at the 'visitors' and ask ourselves what do they
>want?

>Simple, they're trying to survive by creating and maintaining
>something. What that 'something' is is speculative. Yet I'd say
>it's safe to say they're creating and maintaining themselves.
<snip>

>What do they want from us? We are some part of those drives.

<snip>

>Advanced technology has nothing to do with sanity. Just look at
>the TV programs and you can see that for yourselves. A
>technologically advanced civilization from another world may be
>just that: technologically advanced. Socially is another issue.
>That depends on how they treat one another, as valued members or
>grist for the mill.

>Far too often I hear or read where someone assumes that
>civilizations that are advanced don't want to contact us because
>we're so 'savage'. That doesn't mean squat without proof. It's
>only speculation. Could be we may be nicer than our neighbors
>and they can't figure it out. As brutal as we are we might be
>the nicest kids in the neighborhood. Speculation yes, but a new
>slant on this issue. Worse case scenario, they don't want to
>contact us because if we found out what they've done or are
>doing or intend, we'd might marshall our forces and open up a
>cosmic can of asswhup on them.

>I can hear it now " They're so advanced they'd wipe us out!"

<snip>

All very excellent points! Many of these points have been
addressed by SETI theoreticians and often from an anti-UFO
position.

What we need in the UFO community is for someone in the pro-UFO
camp to do better, scientifically more fair modeling, which will
require some hard theoretical work to develop some numbers and
tests for these ideas. Each one can be modeled and tested.

We can easily see some kind of distinction between "stealthy"
behavior and "open" behavior, for example, let's develop some
numbers. But it's going to require a lot more work than any of
us apparently can put into a quickie email posting. And it will
never be done at all if it gets thought- terminated by the
"they're so advanced" argument.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:37:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:05:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:26:48 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:51:32 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:36:06 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:29:00 -0400

<snip>

>>>If Stan is right, the aliens could well be hampering both sides,
>>>working to prevent disclosure, and jamming or inserting
>>>obscuring noise into SETIs signals intentionally. If so, what
>>>hope do we have against such advanced tech - on either front?

>>Occam's Razor in science tells us we cannot jump to the more
>>complicated scenario (or hypothesis) before eliminating the
>>simpler scenarios. The simpler scenario that the aliens are not
>>masking or jamming their signals has to be investigated first
>>and given a fair chance of being tested out before we abandon
>>the idea. It is often hard to tell how much effort should be put
>>in before giving up. Usually the partisans in favor of an idea
>>will go down fighting for their cause until every avenue has
>>been exhausted (along with themselves).

>>So far only SETI theorists have ever tried to develop consistent
>>models or scenarios for alien behavior. UFO "science" never
>>advances because ufologists refuse to develop any consistent
>>models of alien behavior. Ufologists give up almost immediately
>>under various sorry excuses that alien technology would be "so
>>advanced" it would be like "magic," that alien behavior would be
>>so "alien" that no one can fathom it. This is getting to be like
>>postulating aliens are like God yet even God can be studied and
>>the whole field of doing so is called "theology" and indeed one
>>major branch of it called "natural theology" led directly to the
>>establishment of modern science in the Middle Ages. But
>>ufologists refuse to engage in the theoretical studies, they
>>radically cling to extreme empiricism and denounce anyone who
>>tries to do theoretics.


>Brad,

>Last first. I think every UFOlogists who calls himself that
>IS engaged in theoretical studies.

>I read posts every day in this list that attempt to explain,
>describe, or contemplate technologies that are far beyond our
>current capabilities...no terms like "magic" included.

Kyle,

They do not have to use _terms_ like "magic." You just alluded
to it yourself - "far beyond our current capabilities." The
illogic and inconsistency comes in mixing "far" and "near." Then
the show is stopped by invoking the mantra of super-advanced
technology levels at the "far beyond" us level instead of
carefully investigating the "nearer to us" levels of technology,
like perhaps 22nd century levels. This is done all the time even
without using words like "magic."


>My post, or the snippet you cite, reflects what logically follows
>when I ask myself, "What if Stan's right?". Nothing more. Purely
>"theoretical studies".

But it's not the kind of _consistent_ model building that
science needs, and which I was talking about. You invoked the
possibility of alien "jamming" of signals using "advanced
technology" basically to just stop developing models of less-
than-super-advanced alien technology and behavior.

>On partisanship, if a scientist is a partisan, he stops being a
>scientist.

There are degrees of partisanship and different types. The
partisans who are emotional vitriolic fanatics are one type we
can do without.

>Stan Friedman is a scientist in physics. In the UFO field, he is
>not a scientist (gasp). He's an advocate... for a particular
>view regarding UFOs. He may be right, and he may be wrong. I am
>not convinced either way, but I champion his cause for this
>reason...

>Our government has lied about its drug testing on American
>citizens, (using chemical weapons on its own people)

>Our government has lied about War, (Cambodia, Iran/Contra,
>Iraq?, indiscriminate killing for political gain) Our government
>seems willing and able to lie about things.

>When I ask myself, "What if the government really _did_ know
>that UFOs were from other than earth? How would the government
>respond?", the answer leaves me thankful that Stan Friedman is
>out there digging. Because of our government's past behavior,
>the "Occam's Razor" test is somewhat skewed. If they are behind
>all this, then the simplest answer is wrong. The answer becomes
>more complex than Occam could have dared imagine.

I am not sure I see how government coverup relates to the level
of alien technology being assumed - inconsistently - in attempts
to define models of UFO activity and behavior.

Occam's Razor isn't "skewed" at all if you apply it, and find
that you must eliminate the simpler theory because it doesn't
work. That is part of the process of using Occam's Razor. The
problem comes from eliminating the simpler models first,
arbitrarily, right from the outset because "aliens would just be
so far ahead of us that we just shouldn't bother trying to
figure anything out about them, scientifically" (the typical
argument I hear).

>I merely leave that possibility open in my mind, just exactly as
>I leave room in my mind for the possibility that aliens could be
>out there waiting for signals from "out there" like us..

>My main point still remains. Our debate and our presence is
>elevated when reasonable men challenge each other's views
>without ridicule, or hyperbole, and best of all, without anger.

We can agree on the latter. All I'm trying to do is get the
climate in the UFO community to encourage, not denounce, efforts
to build testable numerical models of ETH. If you don't like
someone's numbers then propose your own and back it up. What I
don't want to hear is the shrill shouting-down that starts up
when someone tries to build such models, where they get slammed
with "aliens would be like magic to us" before anyone can even
get to square one.

What is sad is that this is the kind of thing, model building,
that would be done in the first week of a full-scale scientific
program on UFOs involving say a hundred James McDonald's or
Nobel-level scientists living, breathing, dreaming UFO's 24-7.
This is what the hated evil CIA tried to do back in 1952, tried
to set up a massive, permanent (not one-shot or a 4-day-deal)
scientific UFO research program at MIT involving top-level
Nobel-scale scientists. But the Agency was thwarted by the AF
which killed the plans, and then retaliated by forcing the
Robertson Panel setup on the CIA, with rigged "UFO" cases that
were actually IFO's that had to be judged in a 4-day rush to
judgment with an artificially hurried (rigged) deadline.


Brad








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

             Re: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution - Chace

From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 03:25:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:08:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution - Chace


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:01:54 -0500
>Subject: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution

>Stan's response was that the similarities in body plan to humans
>might be due to a common alien/human ancestry, humans being the
>descendants of some ancient colonists from another planet.
>Shostak pointed out - quite correctly I think - that the DNA
>evidence shows that humans are closely related to all other
>forms of life on Earth and that any extraterrestrial "colonists"
>would have to have been microbes that subsequently evolved into
>human forms, as well as all the others that inhabit the planet.

I�m not quite sure where Stan was going with this comment about
possible common alien/human ancestry. Some astrobiologists have
suggested that the first microbial life on Earth could have
actually originated on Mars and then been transplanted to the
Earth via meteorites billions of years ago, which I suppose is a
form of colonization by extraterrestrials. However, I don't
think that Martian or terrestrial microbes have any special
genetic predisposition toward evolving into a humanoid form
later on. The process of evolution is governed by environmental
and ecological factors more than by any genes that those
microbes would have had when they first started out.

A metaphysical interpretation of this "common ancestry" idea
might be that the Earth is a penal colony for the souls of
beings from higher civilizations. Perhaps these unfortunate
souls were sentenced to be reincarnated on Earth as punishment
for bad behavior. This would be analogous to the notion that
Australia was started as a penal colony, but in this case it
would be in a metaphysical rather than a literal sense.

I know that in the past Stan has past spoken of parallel or
convergent evolution as a possible explanation for the humanoid
appearance of UFO occupants. There are certain directions in
which life tends to evolve due to the constraints imposed by the
(presumably) universal laws of physics, chemistry and biology.
What is clearly not plausible is the idea that humans are the
direct physical descendants of purely extraterrestrial humanoids
who arrived in recent geologic time. Some authors have suggested
this, but the fact is that human beings are genetically related
to Earth's indigenous primates and other life forms. I'm sure
that Stanton Friedman is well aware of this.

To follow up on this notion of convergent evolution, I would
point to the physical similarities between the Mesozoic marine
reptiles called ichthyosaurs and the modern odontocetes or
toothed whales. Their form is dictated by their ecological niche
or way of life. Convergent evolution as a force in nature should
not be underestimated, for there are even cases where different
species of plants growing on different continents have
independently evolved the same chemical defenses against
predation. That is, they actually use the exact same molecule as
a toxin to discourage caterpillars and other hungry bugs. One
last example is the physical similarity between Australia's
whipsnakes, elapid snakes of the genus Demansia, and North
America's whipsnakes, colubrid snakes of the genus Masticophis.
Though separated by millions of years of evolution, these snakes
are physically almost indistinguishable from one another, having
similar body shapes and scale patterns. The most significant
difference is that only the Australian whipsnakes have venom
(though it is milder than the venom of related elapids that rely
primarily on envenomation to subdue their prey). The physical
similarity is the result of having similar habitats, lifestyles,
diet and foraging behavior. I would expect that on many other
worlds in our galaxy (as Michael Swords has pointed out),
creatures that rely primarily on intelligence and technology to
survive might be likely have a generally humanoid appearance.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                  Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:35:23 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:12:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Connors


>From: Donald Ratsch <sts48.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:58:58 -0400
>Subject: Bible Predicts Alien Attack

<snip>

What a crock of bull feathers and road apples. What next,
prophesy from tea leaf reading, predicting a hummingbird to lay
a 600 pound egg? Jeez... just when I thought I'd heard every
Woo- Woo tripe shoveled into Ufology.


Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                               Varginha Again

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:08:25 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:35:54 -0400
Subject: Varginha Again


Fellow Researchers:

There's some amazing info related to the Varginha Case comming
soon.

As most of you know, there is at least one death connected with
the capture of the alleged aliens, actually the second one. The
man who died was military policeman, Marco Eli Chereze, a healthy
23-year-old guy who was determined, along with dozens of his
mates, to search some areas of the town for other aliens
possibly at large. He was sitting on the passanger seat of a
Fiat Uno patrol car at 20h30 January 20, 1996, when it almost
ran over a creature, that suddenly crossed an unlit street in
the suburb.

Marco got out of the vehicle and grabbed the creature with his
bare hands, using no gloves. He had not been informed about the
risks he would undertake when facing the creature.

Then he went back to the Fiat Uno, sitting with the alleged
alien in his lap. He and his fellow military policeman drove to
a small first-aid facility in the subburb of Varginha. There
they were told by the only doctor in charge that they should
take the creature to a larger facility, so they went to the
Regional Hospital of South Minas Gerais State, in downtown
Varginha, where other police forces, the fire department
personnel and the Army were all waiting for he and the creature.

Their arrival was seen by several people, as the hospital is in
a very populated area. They delivered the creature to the
military in that hospital and it was at that point that their
involvement with the creature ended.

[At this point, one of the doctors who helped the military to
conduct preliminary analyzis of the creature is the "Doctor" I
referred to in my previous posts.]

But, it was not the end of the story for Marco. Actually, within
a few days he developed a very unusual, small tumor under his
arm and had to see his doctor at the military instalation where
he worked. The doctor removed the tumor from him.

A few days after the extraction, Marco's tumor re-appeared and
he devloped other tumors and minor infection points all over his
body as well. He was then taken to regular non-military hospital
and, a few hours after he checked in, was taken to the intensive
care unit, but died soon after with apparently no reason. He was
a very healthy young fellow who had just passed an exam for a
higher rank in his military career.

His death was a tragedy for his family and it became even worst
because Marco's superiors refused to release his death
certificate to the family. So, they buried their loved one
without knowing what he died of.

After several requests - all denied - a year after the death the
military finally released the death certificate to the family.
But not before censoring some parts of it, and not before the
press got all over them, demanding the its release.

The death certificate doesn't say much and the family still
does not know the cause of death of Marco Eli Chereze.

Until now!

The good inews is that the doctor who had him tested before his
death, in the hospital he was taken to, decided to talk about it
openly. He gave a long interview to Ubirajara Rodrigues, last
week, and they'll meet again tomorrow to cover more details of
the situation and will reveal the cause of death.

The Varginha Case is still open. Next month we'll have a large
UFO Conference in the town, that I am proud to organise, where
this new witness and a few others will be presented to the
public.

See info at:

www.ufo.com.br/minas.php


A. J. Gevaerd
Editor Brazilian UFO Magazine
www.ufo.com.br








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                         Re: Close-Up Photos - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:42:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:46:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Hale


>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0400
>Subject: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>Something seems wrong with all this to me - why has there not
>been, in the last 50 years, any reasonable close-up photos in
>the public domain?


Hi,

Perhaps those who take such pictures, have become aware of the
media intention of making them look rather silly in front of the
TV cameras? There may be vast private libraries of UFO photos
sitting in someone's cupboard?

I recently had the fine pleasure of reading and looking at one
of the most excellent UFO photograph books of all time, quite
stunning close up photos of 'structured' airborne UFOs, from
across this vast planet of yours and mine.

The book, UFO Richard Brunswick PhotoCollection
By Goliath: ISBN 3-9805876-3-0 published in Germany.

I really commend this book for a serious and objective look at
just how, some UFO pictures across the decades have been caught
by the camera, and most in this book I had not seen , as I
understand these pictures were privatley collected by this man,
over a few decades.


Regards,

Roy






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                     Re: Close-Up Photos - Sanchez-Ocejo

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 8:51:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:48:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Sanchez-Ocejo


>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0400
>Subject: Close-Up Photos

>Of all the abductees and near-abductees, no one had a
>camera? Or is it that the interdimensional nature of abductions
>means there is no physical object to photograph, and the
>physical objects flying around in the skies and detectable by
>radar are a different phenomena - possibly related, possibly
>unrelated?

In the abduction cases, the abductee cannot control their
conscioness. Even if they had a camera, they could not use it. I
had a case in with the abductee carried a paper note with my
questions to his abductors in his pocket, and during others
contacts, could not use it. These entities fully control your
mind and actions during the abduction.


Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                    Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

From: Alfred Webre <Exopolitics <exopolitics.nul>>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:53:47 -0400
Subject: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races



PRESS RELEASE =96 UNIVERSITY RESEARCHER RELEASES REPORT ON THE
MOTIVATIONS AND ACTIVITIES OF EXTRATERRESTRIAL RACES VISITING
EARTH


Dr Michael E. Salla, a former Assistant Professor and current
Researcher-in-Residence at American University, Washington DC.,
claims that as many as 57 extraterrestrial races are currently
visiting the Earth. Of these races, he claims that 17 have most
significance for the evolution and sovereignty of humanity. He
divides these races into two groups. The first group, he claims,
comprises seven races that are connected as a network through a
series of secret agreements between themselves and 'shadow
governments' in the <?xml:namespace prefix =3D st1 ns =3D
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />United States and
elsewhere. This group, according to Dr Salla, are part of a vast
military-industrial-extraterrestrial complex fully funded by
'black budgets' in the US and other nations. He believes that a
second grouping of ten extraterrestrial races are outside of
this network of agreements and offer humanity the best chance
for a positive future.

Dr Salla bases his report on the testimonies of a variety of
former military and government 'whistleblowers' who have
participated in classified programs or witnessed classified
documents; and 'contactees' who claim to have met with
representatives of different extraterrestrial races. The Report
methodically analyses the different races belonging to each
group either within or outside of the military-industrial-
extraterrestrial-complex Salla believes began during the
Eisenhower administration. Dr Salla's report is fully referenced
with over 100 footnotes, and offers readers an opportunity to
find in one place the best available evidence on the motivations
and activities of different extraterrestrial races monitoring
and interacting with humanity.

The full title of the Report is: "A Report on the Motivations
and Activities of Extraterrestrial Races =96 A Typology of the
most Significant Extraterrestrial Races Interacting with
Humanity"

The Report has been published online and can be downloaded from:

http://www.exopolitics.org

An abstract of the Report appears below.

Dr Salla can be contacted for interview at:

drmsalla.nul or by phone at: 202 885 5987


-----------

"A Report on the Motivations and Activities of Extraterrestrial
Races =96 A Typology of the most Significant Extraterrestrial
Races Interacting with Humanity"


Abstract

There are an extensive number of extraterrestrial races known to be
currently interacting with Earth and the human population. In a 1998
interview, Clifford Stone, a retired US army Sergeant who served in
the US Army for 22 years and participated in covert operations to
retrieve crashed extraterrestrial ships and extraterrestrial
biological entities (EBE's), revealed there were a total of 57
extraterrestrial races known to the US military. From this pool of
extraterrestrial races, a number are more active than others, and
can be claimed to have the most significance for human evolution and
sovereignty. The extensive number of testimonies concerning
different extraterrestrial races indicates that the motivations and
activities of extraterrestrial races vary greatly, and an idea of
these motivations can be distilled from close examination of these
testimonies. This report describes the main extraterrestrial races
most commonly referred to in the literature who appear to have most
strategic significance for the evolution and sovereignty of
humanity, and their impact on a range of systemic global problems.
The report distinguishes between these extraterrestrial races on the
basis of their belonging to one of either two distinct groups. The
first group contains extraterrestrial races with which `shadow
governments' responsible for extraterrestrial affairs, have reached
agreements with and even collaborated in a number of joint projects.
The extensive set of interlocking agreements between these races and
the `shadow government' in the US and elsewhere suggests the
existence of a military-industrial-extraterrestrial complex of
interests. The military-industrial-extraterrestrial complex of
interests currently controls most information concerning the
extraterrestrial presence; and dominates government institutions
around the planet, financial interests, the mass media, and is
responsible for systemic global problems.

There is also a second grouping of extraterrestrial races that lie
outside of this web of clandestine agreements between
extraterrestrial races and `shadow governments'/national security
agencies. Most `contactees' report these races to be `friendly' to
human interests suggesting a more ethical approach to the challenges
confronting humanity as it prepares for the truth about the
extraterrestrial presence and challenges posed by advanced
extraterrestrial technology. It is this latter group which may prove
to be the key in solving systemic global problems caused by the
first group and the `shadow government'.

This report will first describe the group of extraterrestrials that
are part of a military-industrial-extraterrestrial complex that
while mainly associated with the US, is global in scope. The report
will then describe the second group of extraterrestrials who have
declined to be associated with the military-industrial-
extraterrestrial complex. Distinguishing between extraterrestrial
groups in this way helps bring to prominence the complex ethical-
legal-political dimensions in understanding how different
extraterrestrial races choose to cooperate or not with the military-
industrial-extraterrestrial complex. For example, is a race of
extraterrestrials `unfriendly' if it chooses to become part of
a `military-industrial-extraterrestrial' complex thereby sharing
technology with national security agencies in what may be described
as `mutually beneficial projects' that lead to secrecy, human rights
violations and damage the global environment as a result of policies
by the `shadow government'? Likewise, is a race of
extraterrestrials `friendly' when it refuses to be co-opted into a
military-industrial-extraterrestrial complex thereby choosing to
play a mainly observer role as a majority of the human race is
exploited by human elites and extraterrestrials associated with the
military-industrial-extraterrestrial complex? While a prima facie
argument can be made to answer `yes' to both questions, this should
not disguise the deeper ethical-legal-political issues that emerge
with the existence of a military-industrial-extraterrestrial complex
and dealing with such questions. Understanding the motivations and
activities of the most significant extraterrestrial races will help
greatly in answering the above questions; and will also help private
individuals respond adequately to the dilemma over which
extraterrestrial races contribute to global problems confronting
humanity, and which extraterrestrial races can be worked with for
the evolution and emancipation of humanity.

-----

To Read Complete Paper Online go to:

http://www.exopolitics.org


"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that
ever has!"

Margaret Mead








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                         Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:08:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:55:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell


>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0400
>Subject: Close-Up Photos

>Something seems wrong with all this to me - why has there not
>been, in the last 50 years, any reasonable close-up photos in
>the public domain? Is there some kind of law of UFOs that they
>will never approach the ground if someone has a camera?

I think it probably has more to do with the camera people
typically have.  Most people don't have telescopic lenses or
high-resolution film.  They have junky little cameras made to
take happy snaps of the picnic.  As digital cameras get a lot
better and a lot cheaper, particularly the ones built into
telephones, maybe this will change.  It's still hard, though, to
take a picture of something that maybe only hangs around about
20 seconds, is still pretty far away, and is maybe in the
process of trying not to be seen.  There does seem to be some
better movie footage being taken these days, however, which is
encouraging.

It would be nice to get some good, close-up or landed photos,
though.  And it's too bad the aliens aren't doing so much
"contactee" stuff where we might get a photo of the _inside_ of
a UFO.  That would be cool.

I predict that the kind of high-quality, close-up photos you're
talking about will be taken by a group of people over a major
metropolitan area within the next three years.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:10:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:02:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:45:19 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:28:08 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:51:32 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

Brad,

>>>So far only SETI theorists have ever tried to develop consistent
>>>models or scenarios for alien behavior.

The SETI literature I've seen - no small amount of it, after a
concentrated effort to read as much of it as I could stand -
doesn't much impress me. The major impression I have of it is
that it is wildly speculative (in a way no ufologist could ever
get away with without being, in your phrase, shouted down) and
based, unlike ufologists' speculation, on no evidence whatever.
A SETI scientist on NPR once recommended science fiction and
said it was a big influence on his own ETI speculations. Somehow
I wasn't surprised.

>But
>>>ufologists refuse to engage in the theoretical studies, they
>>>radically cling to extreme empiricism and denounce anyone who
>>>tries to do theoretics.

Let's have some names and citations here. I literally don't know
what or whom you're talking about, and I know the UFO/ETI
literature better than most.

>You have really resorted to uncalled-for name-calling to accuse
>me of "CSICOP-style polemics" (below) just because I put
>together a thoughtful and actually quite incontestable critique
>of the utter failure of ufology to develop a theoretical basis
>for modeling and testing the ETH. Indeed I would have thought
>that the facts were not even a matter of any real controversy or
>dispute.

I'm glad your work is "thoughtful and actually quite
incontestable," but I deny that I engaged in name-calling for
the simple reason that I didn't. I stand by my critique of your
hyperbolic prose, however. If you want to make a point, I am all
ears, as I have been through the course of our long friendship.
If you want simply to shout and hurl accusations, I'm afraid my
immediate response is to put hands over ears. Since you have
much of interest to say when you're in a more thoughtful,
analytical mode, I would hope I don't have to do that.

>Jerry, this is kind of like screaming that you "have too built a
>lot of pyramids!" and I just say "well point just one pyramid
>out to me and don't point me to a pile of stone chips!" My
>predction is that you will continue to point out sorry piles of
>stone chips as "pyramids." There is potential here for
>converting the stone chips into a Great Pyramid but we're a long
>way off and people are going to have to stop smashing other
>people's efforts to develop a consistent methodology of building
>something. And I might add, stop attacking those who quite
>rightly complain about the malicious smashing routines that go
>on year after year.

Since I have defended you consistently for years, this last
remark is not only false but remarkably ungracious. Come on,
Brad. And please calm down. This is not a personal attack on
you, and I can't imagine that anybody besides you could possibly
read it that way. If you feel free to criticize others -
amazingly sweepingly, I might add - you must expect to be
criticized in return. That's the way it works.

>1. Consistency of model. I have pointed out again and again in
>numerous postings over the years that those in ufology who start
>on a promising avenue of theory - or model-development always
>get shouted down because they allegedly failed to "consider the
>magic- like level of technology" the alleged aliens must have.
>Sometimes the UFOlogist struggling to develop a self-consistent
>model suddenly injects the "show-stopping magic-level
>technology" argument himself into his own reasoning - because he
>knows he is going to be criticized by someone using this bogus
>argument as a weapon - and he stops what he is doing, himself,
>on his own accord. And it always ends right there.

Why aren't you citing anybody in particular? If you could refer
us to specific writings by specific ufologists, maybe we could
get somewhere.

>Call it self-censorship in those cases, a reflexive response due
>to the hostile climate in ufology to anyone who tries to pursue
>an internally _consistent_ model of what alien behavior might
>look like at say, a 22nd century technology level, who allegedly
>fails to consider 30th and 100th century technology (which would
>mean introducing gross _inconsistency_ into the 22nd century model
>and a violation of Occam's Razor). Or anyone who tries to begin
>first with human behavioral models and then shuts down because
>he thinks (or someone attacks him for) failing to consider that
>"alien behavior" must and can only be so "alien" that we cannot
>understand it. So just drop whatever the hell you were doing and
>go into paralysis about any kind of modeling of ETH or alien
>behavior, period. This has happened so many times right here on
>UFO UpDates that I am surprised that anyone would dispute it.

Let's see some specifics in the published UFO literature. Chit-
chat on UFO UpDates, while entertaining and occasionally
enlightening, is not what I mean by "published UFO literature,"
which in the end is what counts.

>2. Testable model. I hope this is not controversial. It's just
>science, you know. If it's untestable, it is non-scientific. If
>an ETH model does not yield any testable ideas then it really
>isn't science yet. It does not have to be some great elaborate
>deal, but it has to be something, preferably numerical,
>quantitative. For example, a Military Reconnaissance Model of
>ETH would predict certain things about ET behavior, such as use
>of stealth, patterns of observation, non-contact with human
>culture, etc. etc. But there would be specific quantitative
>estimates about the patterns to expect based on a specific given
>alien technology level (not confusingly mixing 22nd century
>levels with 30th century, etc.), distance traveled, use or non-
>use of bases on moon or planets or underwater, etc. Also
>patterns to expect _not_ to see (e.g., if it is a military recon
>one would _not_ expect landings on the White House lawn, at UN
>HQ, etc.).

>3. Comparison against other competing _self-consistent_ models.
>There needs to be at least an awareness of the existence of
>competing models both within ETH and outside ETH (such as
>interdimensional, inner earth, time travel, spiritual,
>paranormal/occult, etc.) and some kind of discussion so that ETH
>theory modeling is not done in a vacuum, but not with bringing
>in "show-stoppers" either.

>>For a guide to how ufologists have thought about the ETH over
>>the years, one could do worse than start with my survey
>>"Extraterrestrial Hypothesis and ufology" in the UFO
>>encyclopedia. In recent years particularly good, solid writing
>>on UFOs and the ETH has been done by Michael Swords and Edward
>>Ashpole. One may agree or disagree with their conclusions, but
>>they in no way merit CSICOP-style polemics about the stupidity
>>of ufologists. This sort of thing is truly tiresome, and I would
>>expect better of an old friend and valued colleague.

>Prove it, Jerry. Don't just give me a bunch of hot-air rhetoric.
>Quote for me and the list the supposed UFO ETH theoretical
>development.

Let's see specifics, literature citations, and quotes, Brad. A
good place to start might be Michael Swords's big piece on the
ETH in JUFOS, by any standard a significant contribution to ETI
literature.

Until you provide them - again, UFO UpDates posts really are
not the issue here - further discussion seems a futile exercise.

And please, again, _this_is_not_personal_. I hope that in your
response you will remove all expressions of wounded outrage -
and it might help, too, to acknowledge that people who don't
think or see things exactly as you do are not therefore fools
and idiots.

I confess you lose me immediately when all of a sudden I find
that your target is "ufologists" - clearly, every single one of
them without exception, including me and some pretty smart
people I am proud to call colleagues. If you want to treat us as
colleagues, as opposed to simple objects of scorn, I am happy to
hear your criticisms. I also reserve the right to agree or
disagree with them, and I expect to be heard in turn as
respectfully as you expect to be heard.


Jerry Clark








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 26

                   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:34:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:05:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Dickenson


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:59:40 EDT
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>We can easily see some kind of distinction between "stealthy"
>behavior and "open" behavior, for example, let's develop
>some numbers.

Really Brad?

Ever dangled or trailed a string to tantalize a kitten? The
kitten is "sure" it's hunting that string.

"Open" behavior for one person can be start of a carefully
planned double-cross by another - and that's just within
"normal" humans!

Seems, to me at least, that we simply need to keep an open mind
and reject no information on grounds of "ridiculous" "not
scientific" etc. etc.


Regards

Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                        Re: Varginha Again - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:30:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:27:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Stanford


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul >
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:08:25 -0300
>Subject: Varginha Again

>Fellow Researchers:

>There's some amazing info related to the Varginha Case comming
>soon.

<snip>

A question, please, A.J. In Timothy Good's recent book (Sorry, I
don't have the title. I saw it at Good's table at the recent
'disclosure' conference, but did not buy it, and am not sure
whether it is published in the USA.), there are several color
photos allegedly showing the Varginha 'alien'.

Frankly, the thing in those photos looks to me more like a
poorly made-up model than anything alive or even recently alive.
To my perception, the alleged 'alien' looks as though it had
been contrived by a totally inexperienced movie-prop maker, out
of something resembling cheddar cheese, for a Z-grade movie,
with mineral oil added all over its surface to make it look
repugnant.

I'm reasonably confident that you are familiar with the photos
which Good published. So, please tell us, what is your opinion
of the reliability of the source of those photos and what do you
think of the photos?


Thanks,

Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

              Charles Fort: Godfather of Postmodern Relativism

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:44:16 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:29:56 -0400
Subject: Charles Fort: Godfather of Postmodern Relativism


[Fort and postmodernism all in one... -twc]


Charles Fort
http://tinyurl.com/45nlr

The American Charles Fort (1874-1932) is perhaps the godfather
of postmodernist relativism, although few postmodernists are
likely to have heard of him.

He called himself an =91intermediatist=92, one who believes that
=93all phenomena are approximations one way or the other between
realness and unrealness=94.

He would not commit himself to any single view of the world.

A lifetime of collecting reports of unusual events in the New
York City Library never led him to develop a paradigm that would
accommodate them in a unified view of the world.

Instead, he would conjure up completely fanciful ideas that were
clearly intended to be jokes, such as his =91Super Sargasso Sea=92,
floating above the earth, which had become a repository for all
sorts of d=E9bris sucked up from the surface by tornadoes and from
which otherwise inexplicable objects, such as frogs, would
occasionally fall to earth.

His collection of reports ran from objects falling from the sky
to psychic phenomena, from ghost stories to mysterious flying
objects and from human artefacts found in geological strata to
spontaneous human combustion.

He published his collections and speculations in four books: The
Book of the Damned (1919), New Lands (1923), Lo! (1931) and Wild
Talents (1932).

The books work by piling up account after account, leaving the
reader bewildered rather than enlightened.

There is no attempt to evaluate the reliability of his sources,
to assess whether any of the phenomena are physically possible
or to understand the nature of theory.

One of his great preoccupations is what he saw as the religious
nature of scientific discourse.

He believed that scientists constitute a type of humanist
priesthood and that they uphold their own beliefs by suppressing
inconvenient data rather than arguing from the evidence.

While understanding that scientific theories model the world
rather than describe it, he believed that their inability to
deal with anomalous data showed that they were inflexible,
dogmatic beliefs.

One of Fort=92s admirers, Tiffany Thayer, created a Fortean
Society to collect more anomalous data with the aim of
embarrassing conventional science.

After Fort=92s death, the Society began to publish his voluminous
notes.

When Thayer died in 1959, the Society folded, but by then,
numerous people had become attracted by his ideas (if not his
books).

There are now several societies that describe themselves as
Fortean, as well as magazines and even a British television
programme (Fortean TV, an occasional series shown by Channel
Four).

Ironically, Charles Fort himself did not like the idea of a
Fortean Society, as he thought it would attract people who truly
believed in the strange phenomena he was cataloguing.

All in all, Fort stands out as something of an oddity.

The data he collected are heterogeneous and probably incapable
of synthesis; his perfunctory attempts at synthesis are risible
and (presumably) not meant to be taken seriously.

The point he seems to be making is that it is possible to use
the data science rejects to construct an alternative paradigm,
by which all the accepted data become anomalous.

In short, the accepted paradigm is wrong just as much as the
alternative paradigm is wrong.

But, in Fort=92s view, scientists are not the right people to come
up with the new paradigm because their knowledge is socially
constructed and therefore no more valid than his speculations.

This is why we can regard him as a godfather of
postmodernism.

http://kjmatthews.users.btopenworld.com/cult_archaeology/assorted_oddities_2=
.html


Terry W. Colvin








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                  UFO Sighting Reports Over Military Bases

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:15:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:33:38 -0400
Subject: UFO Sighting Reports Over Military Bases


UFO Sighting Reports Over Military Bases

HBCC UFO Research Notice: Due to the recent UFO sighting reports
I have received from military men and women I have made up a new
section to post these reports to in my website. This way these
reports are not scattered all throughout my site.  The reports
can be found at in the UFO Report Archive or also by clicking
on:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&new_topic

I also will be having a special report coming soon for the
Cannon AFB. A fellow witnessed and photographed a UFO and
recently has been threatened not do release the photo and
information.


Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.brianvike.com Redirect:
http://www.hbccuforesearch.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:07:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:41:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:37:51 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:26:48 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>I am not sure I see how government coverup relates to the level
>of alien technology being assumed - inconsistently - in attempts
>to define models of UFO activity and behavior.

>Occam's Razor isn't "skewed" at all if you apply it, and find
>that you must eliminate the simpler theory because it doesn't
>work. That is part of the process of using Occam's Razor. The
>problem comes from eliminating the simpler models first,
>arbitrarily, right from the outset because "aliens would just be
>so far ahead of us that we just shouldn't bother trying to
>figure anything out about them, scientifically" (the typical
>argument I hear).

>>I merely leave that possibility open in my mind, just exactly as
>>I leave room in my mind for the possibility that aliens could be
>>out there waiting for signals from "out there" like us..

>>My main point still remains. Our debate and our presence is
>>elevated when reasonable men challenge each other's views
>>without ridicule, or hyperbole, and best of all, without anger.

>We can agree on the latter. All I'm trying to do is get the
>climate in the UFO community to encourage, not denounce, efforts
>to build testable numerical models of ETH. If you don't like
>someone's numbers then propose your own and back it up. What I
>don't want to hear is the shrill shouting-down that starts up
>when someone tries to build such models, where they get slammed
>with "aliens would be like magic to us" before anyone can even
>get to square one.

>What is sad is that this is the kind of thing, model building,
>that would be done in the first week of a full-scale scientific
>program on UFOs involving say a hundred James McDonald's or
>Nobel-level scientists living, breathing, dreaming UFO's 24-7.
>This is what the hated evil CIA tried to do back in 1952, tried
>to set up a massive, permanent (not one-shot or a 4-day-deal)
>scientific UFO research program at MIT involving top-level
>Nobel-scale scientists. But the Agency was thwarted by the AF
>which killed the plans, and then retaliated by forcing the
>Robertson Panel setup on the CIA, with rigged "UFO" cases that
>were actually IFO's that had to be judged in a 4-day rush to
>judgment with an artificially hurried (rigged) deadline.


Well said, Brad.

I agree with you that this field would be improved by having a
set of fundamental understood ideas about the origin,
technology, and motives.

The theories touted here and elsewhere would likely require
several parallel groups. Provide a common, updated database of
UFO data to each group...photos, video, radar, eyewitness
testimony, trace evidence, etc. Allow each group full access,
and merge the subsequent findings...large and small...back into
the database to prevent duplication, and to provide other groups
with insights to further there own analyses. Of course, the
database would grow with new reports and data, as well.

UFO Group 1 - Technology... Analyze existing UFO data for
performance characteristics and correlate with current and
emerging terrestrial technologies, seeking commonalities which
might lead to explanations for extreme UFo behavior. Fold
results, good and bad, back into database.

UFO Group 2 - Communication... Analyze current UFO data for its
communication potential. Crop circles, symbols connected with
UFOs, sounds, light patterns, etc., will be analyzed with an eye
to a unified approach, assuming that if ETs are attempting
communication, they would likely try various forms, but
cryptically employed to draw out those with "eyes to see". Fold
results, good and bad, back into database.

UFO Group 3 - Physics... Analyze data for common physical
behavior, even when in violation of current "accepted" paradigm.
Allow the data to suggest alternative physics models, rather
than fitting the data into existing paradigm. Correlate against
current theories for multi-domensional reality, super-string
theory and the like for commonalities which may be cross-
supporting. Fold results back in.

UFO Group 4 - Metaphysics... Analyze existing data and correlate
with past and current sources, including Biblical sources,
prophesy, remote viewing, PSI-OPS, etc.

UFO Group 5 - Biology... Analyze data for commonalities of
physical form beyond the typical "gray". correlate with existing
theories of evolution in extreme environments here for possible
insights. Fold results back in.

Somewhere in this mix of analyses, one could expect that minor
breakthroughs would be achieved. UFOlogy could evolve into a
true science. Several good theories about UFOs would continue to
compete...just as other sciences have multiple plausible
theories awaiting the final kiss-off, or the final vindication.
But those that promoted purely speculative rebuttals might be
naturally hushed by the peer groups' single-mindedness of
purpose and clear objectives. In fact, results might even
require creation of new groups to handle "extra-disciplinary"
phenomena.

I can imagine a "think-tank" style institute...how about
ITISAUFO... Institute for Technical Investigation and Scientific
Analysis of UFOs. A "Brookings Institute" for UFO studies.

I fear you are right in thinking that it would fall by bickering
and in-fighting. It's not a money issue.


Kyle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                 Re: Press Release - Paradigm Research Group

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:04:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:45:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Press Release - Paradigm Research Group


>From: Stephen Bassett <Disclosure2003.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:25:42 -0400
>Subject: Press Release - Paradigm Research Group - 07-26-04

>PRG
>Paradigm Research Group

>July 26, 2004 - Press Release
>Memos to the Candidates

>On the eve of the Democratic Convention PRG issues the following
>challenge to three of the presidential candidates

>Washington, DC - The next President of the United States will
>take office during the 57th year of the public's awareness of a
>government imposed truth embargo on the fact of an
>extraterrestrial presence engaging the planet earth and the
>human race.

<snip>

I predict that none of the candidates will bother to read the
press release beyond the above sentence, assuming they get that
far.


CDA








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

               Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:08:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:48:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know - Boone


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:15:53 -0400
>Subject: Re: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:49:57 EDT
>>Subject: Are You Nuts? The US Wants To Know

>>Are You Nuts? The US Govt. Wants To Know...By Force

><snip>

>>I'm really worried that abductees will soon be the focus of a
>>witch hunt and forced to take dope to cope.

>>Greg

>We "mind control", electronic harassment and gang stalking
>targets have been through just this situation for years.

>Basically, I advise newly aware colleagues to _avoid_ discussing
>_any_ of their anomalous experiences if they find themselves
>face to face with the thought police. I don't see how an
>abductee can be forced to talk about their abduction
>experiences.

>The one stumbling block is the MMPI (Minnesota Multiphasic
>Personality Inventory) or similar "there-is-no-wrong-answer"
>questionnaire. These are multiple choice tests and will not
>force an abductee to discuss their abduction experiences.

>Abductees facing a mandatory MMPI, which is impossible to defeat
>since there is no way to tell which is the "right" answer, might
>want to have a private psyCHOlogist give one to them first, to
>find out if there are any "land mines" in it.

>One small clue is, and this is a question on the MMPI, "strange
>smells" is one you don't want to admit to. That one seems to
>attract negative vibes from the Great Ones who know all about
>the human mind.

>Beyond that, I would advise really worried abductees to look up
>and pay a retainer to a mental health defence lawyer. I did
>this, and she found me a local psychiatrist who, very
>untypically, was entirely honest. She gave me a clean bill of
>mental health before I began to picket about the covert
>electronic and conventional stalking attacks. That would be
>_very_ handy to have already done when forced testing comes to
>your neighbourhood.

>I could never have located that honest psychiatrist on my own.

>Since most lawyers allow a 30 minute free interview, one can
>"window shop". It's not that hard, by a bit of asking around,
>helped by the local law society, to locate those lawyers who
>have mental health as a sub-specialty.

>Just some words of advice from some folks who have "been there".


Thank you Eleanor White!

I've forwarded this thread to some of the mental health advocacy
groups and I am suprised that they agree with each post. They
have told me so many horror stories and the dirty inside tricks
people use with mental health procedures. Like I said earlier
that people use these tactics for vindictive purposes and there
is an enormous, enormous amount of proof of this going back a
century or more easy.

With each new advance in so-called 'mental health' technology
more people become the victims of a level of quackery so
outrageous that I expect to see 'Daffy Duck' become the new
symbol of the psychiatric community.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those " Why them
psychiatrists are all evil yadda yadda yadda" types. Far from
the truth. Problem is that when those psychiatrists who are
trying to stand up for what's right take the podium they
themselves become the targets of horrendous character
assassination and retributions. Honorable physicians in every
field who fight for what's right end up too often a target. For
what? Trying to do things right?

It's all about money and politics. Control by force and
oppression. "Think our way or be locked away" type of mentality.

Example is religion. The President of the U.S. is often talking
about religion. Stuff you can't prove. There are billions who
each day will swear they've been rescued by some invisible,
intangible power yet you won't see them tossed into a hospital
or forced to take psychotic drugs. Why? Because these same
religious minded people control the majority of the wealth and
weapons in the world. Don't wanna piss them off! Yet you can
just glance at history and see the massive amounts of slaughter
and treachery by those who use these beliefs for their own
vindictive and greedy purposes.

It's our constitutional right to believe what we want. Yet when
those beliefs rock the status quo we become the target of the
status quo.

Yesterday's oppressed, gaining power, become today's oppressors.

So here we are in the 'space age' and a citizen gives a sane and
reasonable report of what they believe to be an interraction
with an 'alien' species. Perhaps our levels of awareness in
matters of science allows us to more accurately define these
interractions from the scientific viewpoint wherein one who is
only indoctrinated in a viewpoint from a religious standpoint
interprets it as a 'divine' event.

Trillions of dollars are generated each year from these
religious viewpoints and that puts bread on the table. Not to
say these people are wrong, far be it, yet to point out what's
acceptable and what is not can land one in the soup.

Forced agreement is dangerous. It kills one's self and pan
determinism. We've got billions of people walking around today
looking and interpreting reality from 'forced upon' viewpoints.
We don't get their own real interpretation because it's buried
under the threat of switch, fist, gun, and fear of social
ostracization. We're getting stimulus-response reports. Woe upon
the officer who has to dig through all this during an event and
he presents a rational scenario, he may end up without a job.

We're at a dangerous crossroad here. What we 'want' to believe,
what we're told we'd 'better believe' and what the truth is.

To have those realities forced or invalidated by 'phantom
pharmaceutical science' is nothing short of a modern day
'Spanish Inquisition' with a chemical signature.

I'm happy that the UFO Abductee scenarios are being looked at
more with a less stigma due to the advocates of mental health
reform than I had imagined. It's because somewhere someone sat
down and decided that the best way to fight 'mad science' is to
just do 'science' without the social filters. It might taste
bitter, but it's a lot easier to digest.


Best,

Greg







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                   Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:18:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:49:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Boone


>From: Donald Ratsch <sts48.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:58:58 -0400
>Subject: Bible Predicts Alien Attack


>Bible Predicts Alien Attack

>http://home.comcast.net/~sts48/biblealienattack.html

<snip>

Far be it from me to disagree with a Biblical interpretation.

That's your right Mr. Ratsch.

I was fortunate to have grown up around many a top scholar in
the scriptures. Listening to them and reading with them and
seeing how they fit into modern day events.

What I've found to be successful and level headed is to study
the culture and language of the people the scriptures were
originally targeted to: Hebrews.

You'd be suprised at how simple and direct the scriptures are
and the true meanings when you define the meanings of the names
of the people and places. It makes for a more accurate and
calming study.

Find a Rabbi, get a dictionary, and have fun.

Prophecy is a 'maybe' scenario for future events. Not set in
stone. Sort of like a 'signpost up ahead' of the roads we should
take or the way we should conduct ourselves as we travel.

So I, for one, shy away from Biblical interpretations unless
those interpretations come from those that thoroughly understand
the cultures and languages of the peoples they were targeted to
and then what those peoples and cultures are doing today.


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                        Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:29:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:51:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks


>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0400
>Subject: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>Something seems wrong with all this to me - why has there not
>been, in the last 50 years, any reasonable close-up photos in
>the public domain? Is there some kind of law of UFOs that they
>will never approach the ground if someone has a camera? Or, even
>more ridiculously, only if the camera operator is a military
>employee with top-secret clearance who will not divulge the
>photos? Of all the abductees and near-abductees, no one had a
>camera? Or is it that the interdimensional nature of abductions
>means there is no physical object to photograph, and the
>physical objects flying around in the skies and detectable by
>radar are a different phenomena - possibly related, possibly
>unrelated?


Thank you for an immensely thought-provoking posting. The
problem can be traced to a root cause which I call the Myth of
the Almighty Camera. I have alluded to this many times earlier
in postings to rebut numbers arguments about UFO photos, why so
few?

First, cameras are not objective instruments and photos are not
pure objective instrument data. Cameras distort the
representation of the incident light and various corrections
must be applied to correct for spatial distortion of the lens
and distortion of spectral sensitivities to light on the film.
Photos are not purely objective because a human being with
biases must interpret the photos.

Second, and this will surprise most people, cameras are poorer
instruments than the human eye (and brain but let me just call
it all the "eye" for simplicity). The human eye captures the
equivalent of gigabytes of data every second, which is far
beyond the capabilities of digital video cameras. The eye can
resolve millions of colors and can detect and adjust for light
levels well below the thresholds of most cameras, etc. The
weakness of the human eye system is that there is no playback
mechanism except whatever memory process the brain can use, and
only the human with the brain can access it, at present (though
there are increasingly sophisticated systems being developed for
directly electronically accessing memories in the human brain).

Third, the human eye is a better instrument for UFO detection
and observation than the camera -- a shocking statement perhaps
but very true. Although playback is a problem as I noted,
nevertheless the eye and brain strive to recall only the
differences from image to image, so that one is not swamped with
unchanging images. But the camera is "dumb" and doesn't know
better. If an object remains the same for a long period the
camera if movie film or video will show just that. If it is only
a still camera, you can lose immense amounts of important data
between shots anyway. Cameras cannot adjust across the enormous
range of light levels as the human eye can.

But most important of all, cameras cannot interpret what they
"see," whereas the human being despite all his/her faults and
limitations can and does interpret and analyze the observation,
and usually attempts to investigate and explain the sighting in
conventional terms first -- unlike the camera which cannot
think, react, or try to explain the light that is incident
through its lenses. A human being suitably trained or debriefed
can retrieve immense amounts of data far beyond camera
capability, in part due to the human's efforts to "escalate the
hypotheses" (as Hynek called it) in an attempt to explain what
he/she sees. For example the UFO witness might move around to
see if the object moves and might be a reflection. The human
witness will recall details better if he/she is actively
involved and motivated, such as by efforts to explain the
sighting.

What this is leading up to is this: UFO photographs do not
provide 100% objective evidence, despite common misconceptions
to that effect, for the reasons I explained above. And UFO
photos are poorer in quality than the human eye registration of
imagery, but the one advantage photos have is that they are much
more accessible than human memory as yet for "playback," though
again this is not 100% objective either (film/digital sensor
sensitivities to light are not true, etc.).

I have looked at thousands of UFO photos and studied quite a few
very intensively over many years (McMinnville, Trindade, Skylab-
3, etc.). The one thing that sticks out to me quite glaringly is
that MOST photos do not and cannot give anyone enough
information to decide whether it is a UFO or an IFO or a hoax.
Most UFO photos show tiny lights or small points in the sky, and
without the dynamic record of a human eye like a super video
camera, there is no way to know if it was a UFO moving highly
erratically across the sky or was just a firefly or a meteor or
whatever. Many UFO witnesses forget their sighting details under
the misconception that the "camera tells it all." Many are never
as thoroughly interrogated when there are photos to supposedly
supersede and take the place of the "inferior" witness, so that
human eye data is lost.

The Skylab-3 photos from space on Aug 26, 1973, would be pretty
red pics and interesting in a curiosity sort of way but utterly
worthless in and of themselves as UFO evidence without the
brilliant observations and quick thinking of the world's first
scientist in space, Stanford electrical engineering professor
Dr. Owen K. Garriott. Dr. Garriott told me after he returned to
earth that he had noticed the Skylab going into the earth's
shadow at the end of this 10-minute sighting by him and his two
fellow astronauts. He realized the unidentified object would
soon go into shadow too and disappear and that by counting off
how many seconds elapsed he would be able to get a distance like
an optical radar (because both the UFO and Skylab it paced were
moving at orbital speed of 5 miles per second).

He counted off 5-6 seconds between the Skylab going into the
earth's shadow line and the red objecti going into the shadow
line and that told him the object was about 25 to 30 miles away
(5-6 secs x 5 mi/sec = 25-30 miles) -- in terms of space debris
this is an uncomfortably close call. NORAD is required to
continually update NASA on any and all space obejcts that come
within a designated distance (I think it's 1,000 nautical miles)
of any manned spaceflight, for the entire duration of such
flights. Yet NORAD had not warned NASA of any such close
encounter. Since this all occurred over South America NORAD had
no radars down there to "skin track" a bogey, so we are left
with Garriott's optical ranging data.

Garriott's orbital UFO was almost the angular size of the Full
Moon, as I measured it on the film (about 0.5 deg). This is
about right for my rule of thumb that in most UFO photos one
needs to be close enough so that the UFO image is at least the
size of the Full Moon or so, in order to see enough detail to be
able to have a good shot at telling what it is. Combined with
Garriott's distance data from his optical ranging experiment,
the UFO's size is readily calculated as about 1,000 feet. The
largest object in orbit at that time was the Skylab itself,
which was only 137 feet long. You do the math.

Getting back to my rule of thumb requiring at least a Full Moon
in angular size in UFO photos, that leaves the vast majority of
UFO photos in indeterminate status, neither explained or
unexplained. Exactly as we have today. Most "UFO" photos show
only tiny images or point sources, and no one can tell just what
they are, one way or another. If the average UFO is say 30 feet
or so in size (as Vallee determined) then it must get within
about 1/2 mile distance in order to show up on film as at least
Full Moon in apparent size. This means basically that only close
encounters can possibly be close enough for witnesses to get
good UFO photos. Consider that most people never get as close as
1/2 mile to an airliner in flight in their entire lifetimes (not
even at airports) -- or if we want to scale size and distance
more fairly then say never get to within 1.5 miles or so of an
airliner in flight (the exceptions being those living directly
under the flight patterns of a nearby airport).

And that cuts down the numbers drastically because there are
only a few thousand close encounters total, worldwide (Vallee's
Magonia Catalog in 1969 had only 900+), and then you have to
factor in the element of surprise and time duration as to
whether anyone can get a camera out or think of doing so due to
their shock, etc. With the average close encounter only about 5-
10 minutes long, it does not allow much time to think of a
camera and retrieving it. Usually most such CE witnesses are so
entranced by what they are seeing that they do mot think of
cameras. It's not like a plane crash where you know exactly what
is happening.


Brad Sparks







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:33:23 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:54:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:59:40 EDT
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 16:05:07 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>All very excellent points! Many of these points have been
>addressed by SETI theoreticians and often from an anti-UFO
>position.

>What we need in the UFO community is for someone in the pro-UFO
>camp to do better, scientifically more fair modeling, which will
>require some hard theoretical work to develop some numbers and
>tests for these ideas. Each one can be modeled and tested.

>We can easily see some kind of distinction between "stealthy"
>behavior and "open" behavior, for example, let's develop some
>numbers. But it's going to require a lot more work than any of
>us apparently can put into a quickie email posting. And it will
>never be done at all if it gets thought- terminated by the
>"they're so advanced" argument.

Thanks Brad!

I think Mr. Friedman answered it all in his post. He pointed out
several of his papers which focus on UFO behavior. That's a plus
because it's collected data that shows the 'actions' not the
speculations.

That's the bottom line. I can't take anymore 'messages from the
space brothers' reports because it's full of arbitraries to the
point you feel like you're not reading a report, but a new
episode of the old 'Outer Limits' tv show.

Statistics and actions are what we need. Then those stats and
actions interpreted and presented by the professionals from the
various scientific fields. Then we the public and put them
together and make up our own minds.

One thing that tickled me recently was discussing this issue
with some very important folks. These folks grew up in the past
century surviving everything from concentration camps to
earthquakes, etc. Mostly all senior folk, still active today in
various fields. They can talk the talk because they walked the
walk. If I mention Gen. MacArthur, I'll get a first hand story
about him. Same with Pres. Truman all the way back to, believe
it or not, Teddy Roosevelt!  These senior folk, still sharp,
when I asked them about UFOs respond 100% that the gov. is fulla
more bull than a street in Spain. They'll shake that finger at
me with the " In 'my' day we didn't have the internet! We had to
yell out the window at one another! " lines. It's a kick,
because I haven't met one who has negated the UFO phenom. It's
due now because of many of the folks on this board whose
documentaries and books and films are readily available. Puts
faces to the phantoms so to speak. Old folks are talking and you
don't get old being unlucky and stupid so I for one shut up and
listen.

I'm also close to 'whom' these threatening shadowy government
folks are who show up during UFO sightings and testimony and
ferret the real evidence away. Should have figured it out as it
was right in front of my face all along. The knuckleheads even
have their own message boards on the web for goodness sake.

I think it was the old Walt Kelly 'POGO' toon or Al Capp's "Li'l
Abner" toon that had the line " We've met the enemy and they's
us! ".


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                     Re: Close-Up Photos - Praestegaard

From: Soren Praestegaard <soren.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:06:14 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:43:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Praestegaard


>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0400
>Subject: Close-Up Photos

>Something seems wrong with all this to me - why has there not
>been, in the last 50 years, any reasonable close-up photos in
>the public domain?

I have given this some of the same thoughts, but you must keep
in mind the simple fact that when an object is further away,
more people are able to see it, and thereby there is a greater
chance of somebody having a camera with them.

>Or, even
>more ridiculously, only if the camera operator is a military
>employee with top-secret clearance who will not divulge the
>photos?

If (some) UFOs are of extraterrestrial origin, the military
would certainly be trying to track the whereabouts of these
UFOs, and gather information enabling them to at least get a
hint of where to get a good picture. The military probably also
have more and more advanced photo equipment than ordinary folks.
The extraterrestrials certainly also would be interested in
information about the progress of humans military capabilities,
and therefore having a lot of activity in the proximity of
military installations.

>I'm mistaken, all close-up photos are also taken by self- proclaimed
>contactees/abductees, and purport to be of landed or
>near-landed objects.

If they where/was indeed contactees, they certainly would have a
lot greater chance of getting a close-up than "ordinary" people
;-)

As I stated earlier, I have been giving these things some
thought. But if the premise holds truth, I think a possible
explanation is what I've given above.


priest








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

               Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:49:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:47:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here! - Gehrman


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:12:21 -0400
>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:24:45 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Creatures With No Business Here!

>The analysis of the samples from the site that you sent me was
>done without any regard for my personal opinion of the AA film.

Ray,

If you'd have approached the AA film in a proper manner and
viewed it a few more times you may have realized that the film
was either a masterpiece of a hoax or the real thing. You
decided to ignore and ridicule the AA without a single objective
reason; but you knew in your heart that the AA was a fraud.
That's called faith.

If you'd been open to the possibility that the AA was
legitimate, you'd have been much more open to my requests for
assistance. I wanted you to visit the site because I had
confidence in your ability to understand what was there.You
didn't keep your end of the bargain and you insulted me. You're
calling me a liar and I can't let that pass. So put up or shut
up. I can afford any amount below ten thousand. I decided that
the two grand I won from you would pay for the
dendrochronologist.

So let's get this straight. The bet is very simple. When you
visit the site you'll find pure cristobalite, not agate, spread
across and plastered to two hundred thousand square yards of
desert sand, rhyolite outcroppings, individual rocks the size of
baseballs to breadbaskets, dirt and bacterial mats. AND NO WHERE
ELSE! Now how can I be more specific than that?

You will also find trees and vegetation that show severe heat
disruption and burned junipers and one aged, partially burned
cottonwood tree.

You will find one impact site and one landing site and a long
row of burned walnut trees which mark a path to the first impact
site. They have scorch marks and burn indicators in their
crowns.

The cameraman's prediction that we'd find these circumstances in
an old dry lake bed, if we followed his directions, indicates to
me that we have a crash site on our hands and that the cameraman
was telling the truth about his involvement.

How the UFO community handles that will be more than
interesting; it will be crucial

I'm not answering the remainder of your post because I found it
simple minded, without content, and devoid of understanding,
just as I told you before. You're just so god damned sure of
yourself. It's the mark of a troubled soul: often wrong; seldom
in doubt.

So re-read my article:

http://www.thewhyfiles.net/gehrman.htm

I don't think you're paying attention. The sand that created the
cristobalite may be 28 million years old, but the event that
placed this material on the secluded desert site happened fifty-
seven years ago, May 31, 1947.

I'm a witness, an important witness. My advice to you, since you
only have a little time left, is to join Wendy and me at the
crash site. All will be forgiven except the two grand.


Ed








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                Re: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution -

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:15:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:49:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution -


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:01:54 -0500
>Subject: Extraterrestrials & Parallel Evolution

<snip>

>I think parallel evolution is more viable than colonization as
>an alternative explanation to the one that Shostak prefers.
>Evolution theory supposes that creatures evolve to fit their
>environment and that there are some constraints on the forms
>they can take. One of the most radical examples of parallel
>evolution I can think of is dolphins and other cetaceans.
>Cetaceans are mammals and millions of years ago they lived on
>dry land and had four legs like all other mammals. But when they
>returned to the sea, they took on forms roughly similar to those
>of fishes. Only vestiges of the hind legs remain in cetacean
>anatomy. While biologists would consider the differences in
>cetacean and fish body plans to be significant, the general
>forms are similar enough that some people still think of whales
>as a kind of fish. Whales certainly look more like fish than
>they do mammals to the untrained eye.

>Bilateral symmetry is extremely common in most forms of
>multicellular life. Arms, legs, and eyes come in pairs in many
>species that are only remotely related to each other. While it
>can't be proved, of course, it could be that evolutionary
>constraints also tend make a body plan with binocular vision,
>two arms, and two legs the preferred form for intelligent
>creatures on any Earth-like planet. Bipedalism in particular has
>often been cited as essential to the evolution of human
>intelligence by biologists because it frees the upper limbs to
>evolve dexterity needed for tool-making.

<snip>

>So I think it's at least possible that extraterrestrials could
>tend to have forms similar to humans not because they share a
>common ancestry but because they live in the same universe and
>their evolution has been governed by the same physics and
>chemistry as ours has.

>I'll stick by this theory unless the first aliens to land on the
>White House Lawn or that send TV images of themselves to the
>SETI people turn out to look like giant squids or something...

<snip>

Hi Lan,

I will stick by that interpretation, along with you. IMO,
phylogenic studies clearly suggest that you are quite reasonable
in taking that position, and the structural and genetic
interrelatedness of all life make that notion far more
parsimonious with the observed realities than any idea that our
similarities to reportedly UFO-related life might be due to
extraterrestrial influence, for which, so far as I am aware,
there is presently not a stitch of evidence, despite
speculation.

Thanks for making that point.

Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                        Re: Close-Up Photos - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:43:24 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:51:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Ledger


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:42:52 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0400
>>Subject: Close-Up Photos

><snip>

>>Something seems wrong with all this to me - why has there not
>>been, in the last 50 years, any reasonable close-up photos in
>>the public domain?

>Perhaps those who take such pictures, have become aware of the
>media intention of making them look rather silly in front of the
>TV cameras? There may be vast private libraries of UFO photos
>sitting in someone's cupboard?

>I recently had the fine pleasure of reading and looking at one
>of the most excellent UFO photograph books of all time, quite
>stunning close up photos of 'structured' airborne UFOs, from
>across this vast planet of yours and mine.

>The book, UFO Richard Brunswick PhotoCollection
>By Goliath: ISBN 3-9805876-3-0 published in Germany.

>I really commend this book for a serious and objective look at
>just how, some UFO pictures across the decades have been caught
>by the camera, and most in this book I had not seen , as I
>understand these pictures were privatley collected by this man,
>over a few decades.


More details here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/3980587630/aetherialnu0a-20/002-4488104-5
088867

Watch the wrap.

Don








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:35:08 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:53:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Balaskas


>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0400
>Subject: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>Basically, it would seem that all the close-up photos of UFOs,
>from Adamski through Walters, Meier, Allende, are hoaxes. Unless
>I'm mistaken, all close-up photos are also taken by self-
>proclaimed contactees/abductees, and purport to be of landed or
>near-landed objects.

Although not all close-up photos of UFOs are taken by
contactees, including the ones you mentioned as well as many
others, it is true that a large number of them are. The UFO
literature regards many of the most publicized or impressive
close-up photos of UFOs as hoaxes or misinterpretations of
common objects photographed under unusual conditions.

>A more interesting catagory may be called "mid-range photos",
>which are airborn objects at some distance, but still showing
>structure, as opposed to the mass of ufo photos/videos, which
>are at great distace and show featureless lights, blobs, etc.

To my knowledge, there is not a single case where two or more
unrelated people captured either close-up or mid-range photos of
the same UFO on approximately the same time and day but from
different locations. Even at public gatherings such as airshows
and sporting events where nearly everyone has a camera, there is
not a single case of a close-up or mid-range photos of the same
UFO. This fact is amazing in itself considering nearly everyone
has seen a UFO! Featureless distant lights or blobs, such as the
multiple UFOs in the sky over Mexico that behaved like a flock
of seagulls, captured by many on video are more common but
easily explained as IFOs.

>Mid-range material would include ones like the Trent photos from
>way back, and the interesting "red object" filmed a few years
>ago by Anthony Woods.

The Trent mid-range UFOs photos and all other multiple picture
cases, including the Rex Heflin UFO polaroid pictures and the
Trindade Island UFO photos to name a few, are much more
difficult to explain and remain as good examples of mid-range
UFOs.

>There are certainly many reports of there being close range
>photos in government possession, for example Daniel Sheehan's
>testimony for the Disclosure Project, and many others.

Although I was not allowed to see this collection, I have spoken
with a graduate in photography from Ryerson Polytechnic
Institute (now Ryerson Polytechnical University) who was
responsible for Canadian Department of National Defense photos
which included a huge number of close-up and mid-range photos.
Efforts to get these UFO photos declassfied and possibly have
them exhibited at a museum of photography in Ottawa have failed
to date. Even some impressive UFO pictures submitted by
witnesses to the DND are no longer available to the public!

>Something seems wrong with all this to me - why has there not
>been, in the last 50 years, any reasonable close-up photos in
>the public domain? Is there some kind of law of UFOs that they
>will never approach the ground if someone has a camera? Or, even
>more ridiculously, only if the camera operator is a military
>employee with top-secret clearance who will not divulge the
>photos? Of all the abductees and near-abductees, no one had a
>camera? Or is it that the interdimensional nature of abductions
>means there is no physical object to photograph, and the
>physical objects flying around in the skies and detectable by
>radar are a different phenomena - possibly related, possibly
>unrelated?

If some UFOs are advanced ET spacecraft monitoring the Earth, it
is reasonable to suspect that they would not want their presence
known. The reason we may not have even a single close-up photo
of a UFO in the public domain that can be presented as proof of
something not from this world could be explained if some UFOs
were not from space but from another time. If their presence was
ever proven with a single undisputed photo, they would simply go
back in time and change the circumstances so that this photo was
never taken. The fact that there are alleged to be many close-up
photos of UFOs that are not in the public domain and which will
never be released to the public could be considered as further
evidence that some UFOs are indeed from another time. These
ufonauts would not need to go back in time to get rid of this
photographic proof of their existence if the public never got to
see it. Of course, there are many of us who claim to have seen a
few of these still incredible secret pictures of UFOs and ETs
but keep this information to ourselves for obvious reasons!

Any other thoughts why UFOs which have been seen and fascinated
us for over half a century or, more likely, for many generations
and have been seen by millions but have remained so very poorly
documented as far as photos are concerned?


Nick Balaskas








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:57:18 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:57:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Ledger


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:10:56 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:45:19 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

Stan, Jerry, Brad, Ray et al,

Let's say that Science was clambering at the doors of Ufology
and wanted on the bandwagon. Which persuasions does this List
think would be the most valuable to have on board?


Don Ledger








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

               New Additions To Return To Magonia Project Site

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:02:17 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:00:19 -0400
Subject: New Additions To Return To Magonia Project Site


New additions to the Post 1947 clipping collection:

- additional articles from 1948
- articles from 1949-1950 added

The Post 1947 archive will be growing throughout the summer;
major updates will be announced here.

http://embark.to/magonia

We are always looking for new, contributing members. Consider
coming onboard.

Best,
Rod Brock
Chris Aubeck


=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 01:13:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:03:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:42:52 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0400
>>Subject: Close-Up Photos

><snip>

>>Something seems wrong with all this to me - why has there not
>>been, in the last 50 years, any reasonable close-up photos in
>>the public domain?

>Perhaps those who take such pictures, have become aware of the
>media intention of making them look rather silly in front of the
>TV cameras? There may be vast private libraries of UFO photos
>sitting in someone's cupboard?

>I recently had the fine pleasure of reading and looking at one
>of the most excellent UFO photograph books of all time, quite
>stunning close up photos of 'structured' airborne UFOs, from
>across this vast planet of yours and mine.

>The book, UFO Richard Brunswick PhotoCollection
>By Goliath: ISBN 3-9805876-3-0 published in Germany.

>I really commend this book for a serious and objective look at
>just how, some UFO pictures across the decades have been caught
>by the camera, and most in this book I had not seen , as I
>understand these pictures were privatley collected by this man,
>over a few decades.

Sure! :) LMAO! If the pages were softer, more pliable, and
printed with lead-free ink, I'd put in the bathroom. If the
pages were larger, I'd line the bottom of my bird's cage.

As it is, I just keep it around to show people how some phony
'UFO photos' look. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that they
were all faked by the same person. There are, in fact, several
commonalities of faking technique that repeatedly crop up
throughout the book, no matter where it is claimed the photos
were taken.

Please forgive me, friends, but I don't have time to write a
text dissecting those ridiculous photos to demonstrate that they
are fake.

You had Roy's review, and now I offer mine.

If you don't credit my fifty years in UFO studies with teaching
me enough about either photography and/or the optical properties
of bona-fide UFOS as to enable me to spot one of the phoniest
books of 'UFO photographs' to come along in a few years, then
fine, no hard feelings. Throw your money to the wind, if you
prefer, but remember, you were cautioned.

Nice glossy paper, though. :)


Caveat emptor,

Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:00:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:04:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Shell


>From: Alfred Webre <Exopolitics <exopolitics.nul>>
>To: media.nul
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>Dr Michael E. Salla, a former Assistant Professor and current
>Researcher-in-Residence at American University, Washington DC.,
>claims that as many as 57 extraterrestrial races are currently
>visiting the Earth.

On one hand that seems like a lot of different ET races, but on
the other, considering the size of the universe(s), it doesn't
seem like nearly enough.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                        Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:17:08 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:10:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:30:16 -0400
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul >
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:08:25 -0300
>>Subject: Varginha Again

>>There's some amazing info related to the Varginha Case coming
>>soon.

><snip>

>A question, please, A.J. In Timothy Good's recent book (Sorry, I
>don't have the title. I saw it at Good's table at the recent
>'disclosure' conference, but did not buy it, and am not sure
>whether it is published in the USA.), there are several color
>photos allegedly showing the Varginha 'alien'.

>Frankly, the thing in those photos looks to me more like a
>poorly made-up model than anything alive or even recently alive.
>To my perception, the alleged 'alien' looks as though it had
>been contrived by a totally inexperienced movie-prop maker, out
>of something resembling cheddar cheese, for a Z-grade movie,
>with mineral oil added all over its surface to make it look
>repugnant.

>I'm reasonably confident that you are familiar with the photos
>which Good published. So, please tell us, what is your opinion
>of the reliability of the source of those photos and what do you
>think of the photos?


Hello Ray.

I am sorry but I am not familiar with the drawings you mention,
in Timothy Good's book. But what you desrcribe seems a very
poor illustration of the creatures.

Since the case happened, many illustrations have been posted on
several websites, but very few of them do justice to the
reality.

I would be glad to send you some images and drawings  by artists
that have based their work on the actual descriptions made by
several of the witnesses, as well as some drawings by the
witnesses themselves.

I would be glad to publish this info somewhere on the UFO UpDate
site, if I knew how to.


All the best...

A. J.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:41:50 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:26:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Hall


>From: Alfred Webre <Exopolitics <exopolitics.nul>>
>To: media.nul
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>PRESS RELEASE -- UNIVERSITY RESEARCHER RELEASES REPORT ON THE
>MOTIVATIONS AND ACTIVITIES OF EXTRATERRESTRIAL RACES VISITING
>EARTH

>Dr Michael E. Salla, a former Assistant Professor and current
>Researcher-in-Residence at American University, Washington DC.,
>claims that as many as 57 extraterrestrial races are currently
>visiting the Earth. Of these races, he claims that 17 have most
>significance for the evolution and sovereignty of humanity. He
>divides these races into two groups. The first group, he claims,
>comprises seven races that are connected as a network through a
>series of secret agreements between themselves and 'shadow
>governments' in the <?xml:namespace prefix =3D st1 ns =3D
>"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />United States and
>elsewhere. This group, according to Dr Salla, are part of a vast
>military-industrial-extraterrestrial complex fully funded by
>'black budgets' in the US and other nations. He believes that a
>second grouping of ten extraterrestrial races are outside of
>this network of agreements and offer humanity the best chance
>for a positive future.

<snip>

Barf! What we badly need is strong medication for diarrhea of
the mouth. Not to mention extreme brain-warp.

 - Dick









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:45:30 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:28:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:07:18 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:37:51 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate


<snip>

>>I am not sure I see how government coverup relates to the level
>>of alien technology being assumed - inconsistently - in attempts
>>to define models of UFO activity and behavior.

<snip>

>Well said, Brad.

>I agree with you that this field would be improved by having a
>set of fundamental understood ideas about the origin,
>technology, and motives.

<snip>

And a 'well said' to you too, Kyle.

Again I say break things down to the bottom line: Deeds.

From where I sit it's an issue of predator and prey.

In a nutshell the preponderance of evidence clearly states that
an overwhelming number of people across the demographics have
reported what they believe to be interraction with human and non
human life forms who exhibit advanced technology, super
intelligence, stealth, camouflage, mind/perception manipulation,
speed and patience.

That's an awesome array of hunting skills. Almost as good as our
eons long adversary the female Mosquito.

Lots of that evidence points to extraterrestrial origins. Lots
of it doesn't. Bottom line is it's long term and uncannaly
pervasive.

No doubt we're interracting yet now it's time to look at the
prey:

Us.

We're disjointed, uncooperative, arguementative, violent,
bigoted, lazy, aberrated.  All the things a predator would want
in a prey.

By looking at the common denominators we can see why it's so
easy to pick us off for so long. We're responsible for creating
an unsafe envioronment that allows these interractions.

Since our only defense would be to agree and get along I suspect
we'll be on the dinner plate for quite some time to come.


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                 Re: Press Release - Paradigm Research Group

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:03:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:30:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Press Release - Paradigm Research Group


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:04:57 +0100
>Subject: Re: Press Release - Paradigm Research Group 07-26-04

>>From: Stephen Bassett <Disclosure2003.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:25:42 -0400
>>Subject: Press Release - Paradigm Research Group - 07-26-04

>>PRG
>>Paradigm Research Group

>>July 26, 2004 - Press Release
>>Memos to the Candidates

>>On the eve of the Democratic Convention PRG issues the following
>>challenge to three of the presidential candidates

>>Washington, DC - The next President of the United States will
>>take office during the 57th year of the public's awareness of a
>>government imposed truth embargo on the fact of an
>>extraterrestrial presence engaging the planet earth and the
>>human race.

><snip>

>I predict that none of the candidates will bother to read the
>press release beyond the above sentence, assuming they get that
>far.


They'd _better_! It's the rare bad news that gets better with
age, forgetting for a moment that that's the exact kind they
have. See, I suspect that what might be bad for closed
institutions, figurehead governments, corrupt agencies, and
soulless corporations might be just wonderful for rank and file
individuals who think outside the cloistered box. It fuels _my_
optimism, at any rate... Moreover, I don't think it's much of a
stretch that the reality we all undure presently is a smoke and
mirrors farce to keep us from seeing the reality that Mr.
Bassett alludes to, Stanton Friedman's recognizes, Richard Dolan
certifies, and for which I have seen evidense of, on my own.

They won't want to miss _this_ train when it leaves the station,
and those trainwheels are spinning for traction as we speak.
They'd _better_ read to the period!

alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scabrously specious scurrilous.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                  NARCAP Statement On Mexican Airforce Case

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:28:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:44:25 -0400
Subject: NARCAP Statement On Mexican Airforce Case


The following was posted to the UFONET email List:

(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ufonet/):

-----

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:11:58 +0200
From: "Frits Westra" <ufo-net.nul>
Subject: Re: Campeche, Mexico Case of March 5, 2004


NARCAP statement on Campeche, Mexico Case of March 5, 2004

20 July 2004

http://www.narcap.org/news%20page/newspage.htm


NARCAP has recieved several inquiries regarding the March 5,
2004 case involving alleged observations of unidentified aerial
phenomena by a Mexican Air Force C-26 Merlin during a routine
smuggler interdiction flight. Though NARCAP is a national
organization reflecting US aviation safety concerns, there are
several points that NARCAP can offer to the interested public
with regard to this case.

Coincidentally, NARCAP staff were meeting with Mexican and
regional aviation officials in Mexico City, MX, just prior to
the release of this material and were advised of the case, as
well as the impending press conference.

This incident gained a lot of attention in the world press and
there was (and still is) a great deal of speculation regarding
the source and nature of the detections. Numerous news
organizations and individuals including various members of the
scientific community have stated their opinions in the public
forum. In almost every case these opinions were offered without
examining the material beyond a cursory review of very short
film clips of the FLIR camera footage and without conducting any
analysis of the case and supporting evidence.

Additionally:

1.) The Mexican Secretary of Defense and the Mexican Government
have made no public claims regarding this incident. They have
only acknowledged that they were the source of the material.

2.) Niether SEDENA nor the Mexican government have released
complete copies of all the material related to this event to any
researchers.

3.) The material that has been made available via a third party
does not contain complete and unedited copies of the Forward
Looking Infrared Radar (FLIR) film. No radar data has been
provided.

4.) An examination of the materials that have been made
available may offer a mundane explanation however, verification
of any conclusion may depend upon the missing radar data.

5.) The interrupted evidentiary chain of custody combined with
the incomplete nature of the materials that have been released
will severely inhibit any objective analysis of the incident.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                        Re: Close-Up Photos - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:32:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:46:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Kaeser


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:29:28 EDT
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0400
>>Subject: Close-Up Photos

><snip>

>>Something seems wrong with all this to me - why has there not
>>been, in the last 50 years, any reasonable close-up photos in
>>the public domain? Is there some kind of law of UFOs that they
>>will never approach the ground if someone has a camera? Or, even
>>more ridiculously, only if the camera operator is a military
>>employee with top-secret clearance who will not divulge the
>>photos? Of all the abductees and near-abductees, no one had a
>>camera? Or is it that the interdimensional nature of abductions
>>means there is no physical object to photograph, and the
>>physical objects flying around in the skies and detectable by
>>radar are a different phenomena - possibly related, possibly
>>unrelated?

I think the points you raise are good ones, and especially
important given the number of cameras that are now available in
cell phones and PDAs. With the availability of cameras, both
still and motion, we see little in the way of good UFO images.
The exception being incidents like the Phoenix Lights case,
where the event took place over a period of time and there were
multiple witnesses with video cameras.

A friend (an alleged abductee) believes "they" are aware of what
we're doing and don't want us to have good pictures of them, and
if you're looking for a reason that's about as good as any. Of
course, the more prosaic explanation would be that such objects
rarely approach close enough to be photographed, or have the
ability to mask their appearance to prevent detection. But, this
pre-supposes that "they" exist and are intelligently controlling
the UFOs.

>Thank you for an immensely thought-provoking posting. The
>problem can be traced to a root cause which I call the Myth of
>the Almighty Camera. I have alluded to this many times earlier
>in postings to rebut numbers arguments about UFO photos, why so
>few?

>First, cameras are not objective instruments and photos are not
>pure objective instrument data. Cameras distort the
>representation of the incident light and various corrections
>must be applied to correct for spatial distortion of the lens
>and distortion of spectral sensitivities to light on the film.
>Photos are not purely objective because a human being with
>biases must interpret the photos.

>Second, and this will surprise most people, cameras are poorer
>instruments than the human eye (and brain but let me just call
>it all the "eye" for simplicity). The human eye captures the
>equivalent of gigabytes of data every second, which is far
>beyond the capabilities of digital video cameras. The eye can
>resolve millions of colors and can detect and adjust for light
>levels well below the thresholds of most cameras, etc. The
>weakness of the human eye system is that there is no playback
>mechanism except whatever memory process the brain can use, and
>only the human with the brain can access it, at present (though
>there are increasingly sophisticated systems being developed for
>directly electronically accessing memories in the human brain).

>Third, the human eye is a better instrument for UFO detection
>and observation than the camera -- a shocking statement perhaps
>but very true. Although playback is a problem as I noted,
>nevertheless the eye and brain strive to recall only the
>differences from image to image, so that one is not swamped with
>unchanging images. But the camera is "dumb" and doesn't know
>better. If an object remains the same for a long period the
>camera if movie film or video will show just that. If it is only
>a still camera, you can lose immense amounts of important data
>between shots anyway. Cameras cannot adjust across the enormous
>range of light levels as the human eye can.

>But most important of all, cameras cannot interpret what they
>"see," whereas the human being despite all his/her faults and
>limitations can and does interpret and analyze the observation,
>and usually attempts to investigate and explain the sighting in
>conventional terms first -- unlike the camera which cannot
>think, react, or try to explain the light that is incident
>through its lenses. A human being suitably trained or debriefed
>can retrieve immense amounts of data far beyond camera
>capability, in part due to the human's efforts to "escalate the
>hypotheses" (as Hynek called it) in an attempt to explain what
>he/she sees. For example the UFO witness might move around to
>see if the object moves and might be a reflection. The human
>witness will recall details better if he/she is actively
>involved and motivated, such as by efforts to explain the
>sighting.

Brad, I understand where you're going with this, but you can't
compare vision and interpretation to the utilitarian function of
a camera, which by definition records an image for later
reference. You mention the inability of the camera to interpret
the image, and that's one of the major problems I have with most
witness testimony. I guess this depends on whether you're
looking for evidence or testimony, and they're not really the
same thing. The camera, like the computer, is a tool that we
use. How we use it defines whether or not it's good or not.

As far as the limitations of photography are concerned, I would
certainly agree that photographs are not as useful as they were
50 years ago. It has become far too easy to fake a good
photograph, and there are many reasons that some would do so.


Steve








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                        Re: Close-Up Photos - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:01:34 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:32:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Ledger


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 01:13:57 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:42:52 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0400
>>>Subject: Close-Up Photos

>><snip>

>>>Something seems wrong with all this to me - why has there not
>>>been, in the last 50 years, any reasonable close-up photos in
>>>the public domain?

<snip>

>Please forgive me, friends, but I don't have time to write a
>text dissecting those ridiculous photos to demonstrate that they
>are fake.

>You had Roy's review, and now I offer mine.

>If you don't credit my fifty years in UFO studies with teaching
>me enough about either photography and/or the optical properties
>of bona-fide UFOS as to enable me to spot one of the phoniest
>books of 'UFO photographs' to come along in a few years, then
>fine, no hard feelings. Throw your money to the wind, if you
>prefer, but remember, you were cautioned.

>Nice glossy paper, though. :)

>Caveat emptor,


Ray, All,

What came first, the chicken brooder or the UFO?

You, inadvertently, raise an interesting question Ray and it's
something I've wondered about over the years.

Quite often I'll blow off a UFO picture because it looks like
Adamski's chicken brooder or one of Billy Whatizzname's
creations.

The thing is we don't really know what many of them look like.

There appear to be as many models as there are witnesses, though
the photos tend to narrow the scope a bit.

In the witness's cases that is due to personal interpretation
and bias while the film camera distorts the focal aspect, rather
than the shape.

I've been troubled by the blowing off what might have been a
good photo because the damn thing looked like a hubcap that was
thrown across the lawn, when in actuality it might have been the
real thing. Not that if the photo stood, we'd be any further
ahead but the more bonafides we have, the better the chances of
jamming up the gov. with them.


Don Ledger








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                        Re: Varginha Again - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:53:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:41:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Stanford


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:17:08 -0300
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:30:16 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

<snip>

>>A question, please, A.J. In Timothy Good's recent book (Sorry, I
>>don't have the title. I saw it at Good's table at the recent
>>'disclosure' conference, but did not buy it, and am not sure
>>whether it is published in the USA.), there are several color
>>photos allegedly showing the Varginha 'alien'.

>>Frankly, the thing in those photos looks to me more like a
>>poorly made-up model than anything alive or even recently alive.
>>To my perception, the alleged 'alien' looks as though it had
>>been contrived by a totally inexperienced movie-prop maker, out
>>of something resembling cheddar cheese, for a Z-grade movie,
>>with mineral oil added all over its surface to make it look
>>repugnant.

>>I'm reasonably confident that you are familiar with the photos
>>which Good published. So, please tell us, what is your opinion
>>of the reliability of the source of those photos and what do you
>>think of the photos?

>I am sorry but I am not familiar with the drawings you mention,
>in Timothy Good's book. But what you desrcribe seems a very
>poor illustration of the creatures.

<snip>

Hi,  A.J.

I am not referring to drawings. What Tim Good presents in the
book are alleged to be rather close-up color photos of the
actual Varginha 'alien'.

He shows a series of those photos, all evidently taken by the
same photographer or camera, and they, to use the vernacular,
look "phony as hell", to my perception, and that's putting it
politely.

I thought surely you would know of them.


Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                        Re: Close-Up Photos - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:06:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:44:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Kaeser


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:43:24 -0300
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>>The book, UFO Richard Brunswick PhotoCollection
>>By Goliath: ISBN 3-9805876-3-0 published in Germany.

>>I really commend this book for a serious and objective look at
>>just how, some UFO pictures across the decades have been caught
>>by the camera, and most in this book I had not seen , as I
>>understand these pictures were privatley collected by this man,
>>over a few decades.

>More details here:

>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/3980587630/aetherialnu0a-20/002-4488104-
5088867


Don,

This is an interesting picture book that I picked up a few years
ago at a local bookstore, but of extremely limited value for
research. The photographs (some of which are quite strange toward
the end) have very little text explanation, if any at all.
There's some information on the person who collected these
images over many years, but there's no pretense that these have
been investigated and in some cases the images aren't identified
by much at all.

As I recall, there was indication that Richard Brunswick (the
collector of these images) was involved in UFO research for a
number of years, but the only reference to him I find on the
Internet is in relation to the sale of this collection of
images. I'm curious as to whether or not he actually obtained
rights to publish these images, but like most older material
there are few in a position to complain about it.


Steve








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:09:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:48:55 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 30
July 28, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


RED SPHERICAL UFO SEEN
IN ROJAS, ARGENTINA

      "Jorge Perez says that in the early hours of last
Thursday," July 15, 2004, "he saw a strange object in the
sky" over Rojas in Buenos Aires province in eastern
Argentina, "adding that his wife and son were also
witnesses."
      "Rojas resident Jorge Perez, who lives in the barrio
La Loma (neighborhood), claims having seen an unidentified
flying object that was heading east of Rojas 'behind some
wilderness at the dog race track' parallel to Route 188."
      "'The time was approximately 6 a.m. when I was coming
home from work and saw a flying saucer that appeared and
departed...a light that became increasingly larger before
vanishing and appearing again (something it did) for ten
minutes, easily,' he indicated."
      "'I left work and was on my way home, and I looked at
it as it came up, since I saw it far away, from behind the
trees in the wilderness of the dog race track,' he said,
'It came up from behind the eucalyptus trees.'"
      "'My kid has a spyglass, and I was looking through
it.  It (the UFO) was like a red ball that changed colors,
becoming white, yellow...then moved in what appeared to be
circles.  It did this for about ten minutes, then
vanished,' Perez said, 'I was startled by what they were
reporting over 25 de Mayo, and they spoke about the cold.
It was very cold last night.  I saw it clearly.'"
(Editor's Note:  A UFO appeared over the town of
Gobernador Ugarte, near 25 de Mayo, last week.  Ugarte is
160 kilometers (100 miles) southeast of Rojas.  Also,
right now it's winter in Argentina and the other countries
of the southern hemisphere.  For more on the Ugarte
sighting, see UFO Roundup, volume 9, number 29 for July
21, 2004, "UFOs seen repeatedly over town in Argentina,"
page 3.)
      "'I'd never seen anything like it before.  I woke up
my wife and my kid so they'd see it.  The kid didn't want
to get up at first because he thought it was a lie.  I
woke him up so that he'd see it, and he also saw it.  It
looked like a light the size of the moon.  That's all I
saw."  (See the Argentinian newspaper Seminario Colon
Dolce for July 23, 2004, "Flying saucer over the region."
Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Gloria Coluchi para esto
articulo de diario.)


HOVERING UFO SIGHTED IN
WILLOW, OKLAHOMA

      Eyewitness J.W. was "driving north on U.S. 283 in
Willow, Oklahoma," located about 85 miles west-southwest
of Oklahoma City, on Tuesday, July 20, 2004, "when I saw a
strange object dancing to the west.  I slowed down and
stopped to take a picture, but since the car was still
running, it turned out to be a little blurred."
      "By the time I was at a full stop, it had vanished.
Does anyone else have any ideas about what this thing
might be?"  (Many thanks to Jim Hickman for this UFO
report.)


STAR-LIKE UFO CIRCLES
ST. MARIES, IDAHO

      On Thursday, July 22, 2004, eyewitness Jesse S.
reported, "We were lying on a trampoline" at their home in
St. Maries, Idaho (population 2,652) "and we saw first
balls of light, not much bigger than a star.  Maybe about
the same size, moving around one area, basically circling
what looked like a star.  But it was high and it wasn't
part of any constellation."
      "The balls seemed to dodge each other.  They were
white and round.  I couldn't really tell anything else.
As high as a commercial jet, I'm guessing.  They were
literally faster than a satellite and weren't blinking
like a jet.  There was no sound."
      St. Maries, Idaho is on Highway 3 about 30 miles (50
kilometers) southeast of Coeur d'Alene.  (Email Form
Report)


UNUSUAL FIREBALL SEEN IN
ATASCADERO, CALIFORNIA

      On Friday, July 23, 2004, at 1:15 a.m., eyewitness
Earl Smith saw "what appeared to be a shooting star moving
in a linear fashion across the sky" over his home in
Atascadero, California (population 26,411).
      He said the UFO "paused, then turned left, then moved
linear again before darting away."
      "I had walked out to my car this morning to get my
backpack when I noticed what appeared to be a shooting
star.  As I watched it, I noticed an aircraft following
the same path.  Then the shooting star paused briefly,
abruptly turning to the left, continuing on.  It quickly
sped away from the aircraft, then paused again.  Then
rapidly darted off."
      Earl described the UFO as "a yellowish-orange
fireball with a tail and an aura.  Glowing fireball sphere
when paused.  Moving very rapidly while being tailed by
the aircraft.  It was able to move away from the aircraft
at a speed at least twice that of the aircraft's speed."
      Atascadero, Cal. is on Highway 101 approximately 15
miles (25 kilometers) north of San Luis Obispo.  (Email
Form Report)



PHONE CAMERA CATCHES
DAYLIGHT DISC IN TOKYO

      On Friday, July 2, 2004, Greg O'Mahony was "a ten-
minute walk from Katsuga-eki (station) on the Uedo (urban
railway) line here in Tokyo.  I took a photo of the object
with the camera in my digital phone.  I've studied this
photo carefully, and the object appears to be disc-
shaped."
      "When I took the photo, I was not aware of the
object, and, after seeing the object in the photo, I
searched for it (in the sky--J.T.) but could not find
anything.  The size and resolution of the photograph is
not that great because it is only a phone camera.  I have
the picture on my homepage."
      UFO Roundup readers will find the photo at this URL:
http://homepage3.nifty.com/hassle/noteimage/Friday2ndJuly.
gif  (Email Form Report)


NIGHT SAUCER CAPTURED
ON FILM IN USTKA, POLAND

      On Friday, July 23, 2004, Dariusz Helle was walking
along the waterfront in Ustka, a port on the Baltic Sea in
Poland.  "He took a photo of a UFO over the Baltic.  It
was about midnight as he was walking along the docks, and
he saw this slowly moving object in the night sky.  The
UFO appeared just a few days after the Polish Navy stated,
'Nothing out of the ordinary escapes our radar or our
eyes."
      In addition to the naval base, Ustka is home to a
large radar array and has a large Polish Army depot on its
outskirts.  Ustka is located at the mouth of the Slupia
River about 150 kilometers (90 miles) west of Gdansk.
(Email Form Report)


CROP CIRCLE APPEARS
IN PRINCE GEORGE, B.C.

      The fourth reported crop circle formation in Canada
this year appeared in Prince George, British Columbia
(population 75,150) on Monday, July 12, 2004.
      According to Paul Anderson of Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, the formation "was a long pictogram of
circles, rings and pathways in pasture grass.  It was
found July 12 in Moore's Meadow nature park.  The
formation was approximately 76 meters (250 feet) long.
The three circles ranged from 0.9 meters (3 feet) to 15
meters (50 feet) in diameter, and two rings were
approximately 18 meters (60 feet) in diameter each.  The
formation was generally rough in appearance with standing
centers in the circles."  (See the Prince George, B.C.
Citizen for July 13, 2004.  Many thanks to Paul Anderson
of CCCRN for this news report.)


CASSINI STUDIES PHOTOS
OF SATURN'S RINGS

      While orbiting Saturn, the robot spacecraft "Cassini
has gathered new information about the planet's shimmering
rings that is still being mulled by scientists.  The
spacecraft passed through the plane of the rings twice as
it entered orbit around Saturn on (Thursday) July 1
(2004)."
      "Cassini sent back a natural-color image of Saturn
showing the planet's rings are shades of pink, gray and a
bit of brown, scientists said last week."
      "The rings are mostly ice, which is white if it is
pure.  Researchers at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory" in
Pasadena, California "believe the different colors reflect
the presence of other materials, such as rock or carbon
compounds."
      "Detailed close-ups sent immediately after Cassini
entered orbit on (Wednesday) June 30 (2004) were in black
and white."
      "Color variations in the rings were previously seen
by the Hubble Space Telescope and the Voyager spacecraft
that flew past Saturn in 1980 and 1981.  But the
variations are more distinct as seen from Cassini, NASA
said."  (See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for July 25,
2004, "Saturn and its biggest moon show off," page 14A.)


NEW ANTARCTICA MYSTERY

      "Researchers have uncovered a Martian meteorite in
Antarctica, one of only about 30 known Mars space rocks on
Earth."
      "The specimen was found in December (2003) on an ice
field about 466 miles (745 kilometers) from the South
Pole, by a research team financed by NASA and supported by
the National Science Foundation."
      "Scientists say the mineralogy, texture and oxidized
nature of the rock are unmistakably Martian.  At this
point, there is no suggestion that the meteorite bears
evidence of fossilized life."  (See USA Today for July 22,
2004, "Piece of Mars found in Antarctica," page 4D.)
(Editor's Comment:  This leaves unanswered the question of
how this rock crossed 52 million miles of space and
arrived on Earth.  Maybe a UFO landed on Mars, and the
rock became lodged in its landing gear.  Later, as the
saucer was making its final approach into an alien base in
Antarctica, the rock came loose and landed in the ice
field.  In short, the rock came to Earth the same way the
dandelion came to North America--by ship.)


      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us next time for
more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

               Re: NARCAP Statement On Mexican Airforce Case -

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:56:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:29:40 -0400
Subject: Re: NARCAP Statement On Mexican Airforce Case -


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:28:56 +0100
>Subject: NARCAP Statement On Mexican Airforce Case

>The following was posted to the UFONET email List:

>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ufonet/):

>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:11:58 +0200
>From: "Frits Westra" <ufo-net.nul>
>Subject: Re: Campeche, Mexico Case of March 5, 2004

>NARCAP statement on Campeche, Mexico Case of March 5, 2004

>20 July 2004

>http://www.narcap.org/news%20page/newspage.htm

>NARCAP has recieved several inquiries regarding the March 5,
>2004 case involving alleged observations of unidentified aerial
>phenomena by a Mexican Air Force C-26 Merlin during a routine
>smuggler interdiction flight. Though NARCAP is a national
>organization reflecting US aviation safety concerns, there are
>several points that NARCAP can offer to the interested public
>with regard to this case.

>Coincidentally, NARCAP staff were meeting with Mexican and
>regional aviation officials in Mexico City, MX, just prior to
>the release of this material and were advised of the case, as
>well as the impending press conference.

>This incident gained a lot of attention in the world press and
>there was (and still is) a great deal of speculation regarding
>the source and nature of the detections. Numerous news
>organizations and individuals including various members of the
>scientific community have stated their opinions in the public
>forum. In almost every case these opinions were offered without
>examining the material beyond a cursory review of very short
>film clips of the FLIR camera footage and without conducting any
>analysis of the case and supporting evidence.

>Additionally:

>1.) The Mexican Secretary of Defense and the Mexican Government
>have made no public claims regarding this incident. They have
>only acknowledged that they were the source of the material.

>2.) Niether SEDENA nor the Mexican government have released
>complete copies of all the material related to this event to any
>researchers.

>3.) The material that has been made available via a third party
>does not contain complete and unedited copies of the Forward
>Looking Infrared Radar (FLIR) film. No radar data has been
>provided.

Hi Joe, NARCAP, All,

"NARCAP" (probably Ted Roe) states the following:

>4.) An examination of the materials that have been made
>available may offer a mundane explanation however, verification
>of any conclusion may depend upon the missing radar data.

Missing radar data? What missing radar data? All of the radar
data (and there is _plenty_ of it) is recorded for posterity in
the audio portion of the FLIR recording. Hasn't anyone at NARCAP
taken the time to actually _listen_ to the recorded material?

Why is NARCAP shooting itself in the foot this way? They quite
apparently aren't in possession of even the most basic
information relating to this evidence. Otherwise why make such
an ignorant and _obviously_ wrong dictum about it in public? It
almost comes off as the same kinf of a 'knee-jerk' response
we've been getting from the scientific community. Only this time
it's coming from NARCAP. Why is Ted Roe or Dick Haines
dismissing the case 'out of hand' without _any_ investigation
whatsoever. The "radar data" _is_ there. All anyone has to do to
find it is to take the time to listen to what is being said by
the radar operator. Duh!

>5.) The interrupted evidentiary chain of custody combined with
>the incomplete nature of the materials that have been released
>will severely inhibit any objective analysis of the incident.

Wow! Two, count em, _two_ completely 'iggernit' statements from
an organization that I trusted completely, (until now that is,) back
to back! A rarely witnessed feat of stupidity.

The "evidence" that _is_there_ on the FLIR recording, is more
than enough to make a solid case for at least one 'genuine'
anomaly in the sky that day. For Pete's sake, NARCAP, do at
least a 'little' homework _before_ publicly espousing in a loud
voice what turns out to be ill-informed 'opinion' about what may
very well be one of the most important pieces of evidence for
the presence of anomalous 'craft' (UAPs) in our skies.

Check the radar data in the recording. You'll see what I mean.

Wait for Maccabee's report. Then 'sound off' about the nature of
the evidence if you still feel the need to. NARCAP, geez! Whatta
bloody disappointment they turned out to be! _Almost_ as bad as
the Mexican academics! <Hee-Haw>


John Velez








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                       Estill Springs' Girls Spot UFO

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:58:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:34:26 -0400
Subject: Estill Springs' Girls Spot UFO


Source: The Tullahoma News: The Herald-Chronicle

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1614&dept_id=515334&newsid=12498306&PAG=4
61&rfi=9

07-27-04

Estill Springs' Girls Spot UFO; Next Time they will get
Picture...

Nine-year-old Haley Atwood and Charlie Holmes are best friends.
They wear matching bracelets, necklaces, flip-flops and
nailpolish. They agree about everything-well almost-Haley's not
quite ready to let go of summer and start back to school like
Charlie is, but both agree they are slightly bored and pretty
much ready to go back

They've spent the summer playing tag, dressing-up, watching UFO
documentaries on TV, painting each other's nails, swimming,
riding bikes and walking around their neighborhood in Estill
Springs. Both will enter fourth grade at Rock Creek Elementary
School and they will tell their class about the most exciting
thing that happened to them this summer-they spotted a UFO while
out walking the dog.

The excitement shines in Haley's eyes as she describes the
experience (she is the spokesperson for the two and Charlie
pipes in an occasional "uh-huh, that's right" whenever
appropriate). Both have no doubts that what they saw on
Wednesday, July 14th on Lakeview St. in Estill Springs was a
certified UFO. They have pictures to prove it, they say, as they
scurry to get the drawings they made to illustrate what they
saw. Their drawings are strikingly similar.  Haley pointed out
the UFO's in their drawings and explained the fire below and the
symbols below the UFO, a duck, a star and a "Z" shape.

"We were just out walking the dog and looking at the sunset when
we saw it over this field," said Haley as Charlie add a "Uh-huh,
that's right." It was as big as that house and was as far away as
that pole over there," she said as she pointed about a football
field's length away. "Uh-huh," said Charlie. "It was red with
orange lights and it stayed there about ten minutes before
leaving. Cagey saw it and barked!" said Haley who pointed to her
big black dog, who stood nearby watching and wagging his tail.

Haley said she raced back home to tell mom who told them to run
and get the camera. But it was just their luck, no batteries.
And Haley's father simply said he didn't have the energy to
check it out.

"We think they [aliens] were sending messages to Earth about
something. Trying to tell us something important... that maybe
there's a black hole about to swallow up a planet or something
like that!" said Haley as Charlie supported her with another,
"uh-huh." It was really weird... it's not every day that you see
something that cool! Yep, it's the most exciting thing that's
happened to us all summer!"

The girls' assert that they are the youngest to ever spot a
real-live UFO and furthermore they would like NASA to know about
it. The girls report that comments so far from family and
friends have been positive. Haley's twin brother is even
envious, she said and wishes he had been there.

Haley and Charlie would like to assure everyone that Franklin
County is safe (at least until school starts back) because they
are keeping their eyes peeled for a re-visit and are planning on
getting batteries for their camera to capture it on film next
time.

At any rate, the girls are glad to have shared the awesome
experience together and no doubt they'll have plenty to tell
their classmates when the teacher asks, "How did you spend your
summer?" School starts back next week, August 4 from 8-9:30 a.m.
The first full day is Friday, August 6.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                         Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:07:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:38:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:01:34 -0300
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>I've been troubled by the blowing off what might have been a
>good photo because the damn thing looked like a hubcap that was
>thrown across the lawn, when in actuality it might have been the
>real thing. Not that if the photo stood, we'd be any further
>ahead but the more bonafides we have, the better the chances of
>jamming up the gov. with them.

That, I suppose, is where the disinformation comes in. Perhaps
someone figured out a long time ago that the 'real' alien
spacecraft are surprisingly hokey and fake looking, and that the
best way to cover them up is by producing a lot of equally hokey
and fake looking photos to muddy the waters.

The whole aspect of UFO encounters that seem cheap or cheesy or
ludicrous has always been a sticking point with the research.
But again, that might be our own cultural predisposition to
wanting our aliens to look cool and slick, like something our
science-fiction dreams up. It would certainly be a shame to
completely ignore completely real and true sightings or photos
that feature obviously crappy-looking flying saucers, piloted by
little green bug-eyed men, or humanoids wearing fishbowls with
antennas stuck on them. That's where our own predispositions
and prejudices get in the way. Why should we dismiss them
simply because they seem ludicrous? Maybe they're supposed to
be ludicrous.

And maybe this inability to take a decent, high resolution
series of photos is all part of the "high strangeness" aspect of
UFO study that we've never been able to properly functionalize.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                        Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:29:09 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:59:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:53:01 -0400
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:17:08 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:30:16 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

><snip>

>>>A question, please, A.J. In Timothy Good's recent book (Sorry, I
>>>don't have the title. I saw it at Good's table at the recent
>>>'disclosure' conference, but did not buy it, and am not sure
>>>whether it is published in the USA.), there are several color
>>>photos allegedly showing the Varginha 'alien'.

>>>Frankly, the thing in those photos looks to me more like a
>>>poorly made-up model than anything alive or even recently alive.
>>>To my perception, the alleged 'alien' looks as though it had
>>>been contrived by a totally inexperienced movie-prop maker, out
>>>of something resembling cheddar cheese, for a Z-grade movie,
>>>with mineral oil added all over its surface to make it look
>>>repugnant.

>>>I'm reasonably confident that you are familiar with the photos
>>>which Good published. So, please tell us, what is your opinion
>>>of the reliability of the source of those photos and what do you
>>>think of the photos?

>>I am sorry but I am not familiar with the drawings you mention,
>>in Timothy Good's book. But what you desrcribe seems a very
>>poor illustration of the creatures.

><snip>

>I am not referring to drawings. What Tim Good presents in the
>book are alleged to be rather close-up color photos of the
>actual Varginha 'alien'.

>He shows a series of those photos, all evidently taken by the
>same photographer or camera, and they, to use the vernacular,
>look "phony as hell", to my perception, and that's putting it
>politely.

>I thought surely you would know of them.

Ok, Ray, I think I know what you mean.

Some people have made connections between the Varginha creatures
and some other case that happened in Mexico, that was
investigated by Jaime Maussan and is composed of some v=EDdeo of
an alleged alien creature. Well, to be precise, only for half a
second we saw any connection between these two events.

I cannot say if the Mexican case (i.e. if what I am describing
is actually the Mexican case) is real or not, but there is no
connection between it and Varginha. As far as we know, there is
absolutely _no_ picture or video of the creatures captured in
Brazil. They must exist, of course, but we have never seen any.

Over a few weeks, in the heat of the investigation of the
Varginha Case, some of the researchers got calls from a man who
claimed to have a video with shots of the medical analysis of
one creature in the Humanitas Hospital. He was offering that
video for a sum of money, which I don=B4t recollect now, but then
he quit calling.

One of our military witnesses described the medical room where
the second captured creature was placed, in the Humanitas
Hospital, a few minutes before it was removed to University of
Campinas. He said that there was a superior officer in that
room, along with other military and doctors, with a handcam.

Hope the info is useful.

All the best, A. J.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 27

                   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:36:08 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:01:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Dickenson


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:57:18 -0300
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>Let's say that Science was clambering at the doors of Ufology
>and wanted on the bandwagon. Which persuasions does this List
>think would be the most valuable to have on board?

Hello Don - great question. And for search _or_ contact I'd say
forget physicists.

1) A mathematician (capable of lateral thinking - so maybe a
young one) (m/f)

2) a musician - (definitely female)

3) an artist painter - (definitely female)

4) an old-fashioned odd-job carpenter and gardner (m/f)

You'll agree it's not important _what_ the people know - it's
all obsolete anyway.

What matters is _how_ people think and perceive, so as many
women as possible - less aggression, less testosterone. And #4
is there because s/he just _might_ have the necessary view of
reality.

I'm remembering what that Brookings Report had to say way-back-
when:

"It has been speculated that, of all groups, scientists and
engineers might be the most devastated by the discovery of
relatively superior creatures, since these professions are most
clearly associated with the mastery of nature rather than with
the understanding and expression of man" "Advanced understanding
of nature might vitiate all our theories at the very least, if
not also require a culture and perhaps a brain inaccessible to
earth scientists"


Cheers - keep up that lateral thinking

Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
real mail is CC'd edfile.nul
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 28

                         Re: Close-Up Photos - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:56:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:08:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Hale


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 01:13:57 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>Sure! :) LMAO! If the pages were softer, more pliable, and
>printed with lead-free ink, I'd put in the bathroom. If the
>pages were larger, I'd line the bottom of my bird's cage.

>As it is, I just keep it around to show people how some phony
>'UFO photos' look.

Please tell this List that you personally have investigated
every single photo in this particular book, to prove to this
List, that they are as you put it "phony UFO photos".

>I wouldn't be surprised to hear that they
>were all faked by the same person. There are, in fact, several
>commonalities of faking technique that repeatedly crop up
>throughout the book, no matter where it is claimed the photos
>were taken.

I feel my first point, on why the public may not in fact now
come foward with any UFO evidence (photo or film) they may have,
is now being highly advertised by Mr Stanford's answer to my
reply.

>Please forgive me, friends, but I don't have time to write a
>text dissecting those ridiculous photos to demonstrate that they
>are fake.

You have shouted the loudest, show this UFO community the
research carried out by you on these UFO photos.

>You had Roy's review, and now I offer mine.

I am not in UFO research for competition, or awards, but I sat
and read your review.

>If you don't credit my fifty years in UFO studies with teaching
>me enough about either photography and/or the optical properties
>of bona-fide UFOS as to enable me to spot one of the phoniest
>books of 'UFO photographs' to come along in a few years, then
>fine, no hard feelings. Throw your money to the wind, if you
>prefer, but remember, you were cautioned.

I once asked Jenny Randles, after twenty five years of UFO
research, and world lectures, book selling, and TV shows, as
well as documentraies, if she could tell me if she thought that
ET was coming here, she replied no she could not tell me, it
soon dawned on me, that long periods of years in this game,
stand for zilch, except to gloss the pages of some UFO book of "
Who's Who in Ufology" some years down the line.

Roy

"I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side - I've noticed
those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts."
--Bethania Mckenstry







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 28

              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Brock

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:14:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Brock


>From: Alfred Webre <Exopolitics <exopolitics.nul>>
>To: media.nul
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>Dr Michael E. Salla, a former Assistant Professor and current
>Researcher-in-Residence at American University, Washington
>DC., claims that as many as 57 extraterrestrial races are
>currently visiting the Earth.

You can read my commentary on Michael Salla, here.

http://aamb.blogspot.com/2004/07/im-utterly-flabbergasted-i-cant-even.html

[watch for URL-wrap]

Best,
Rod Brock


=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 28

                          Re: Varginha Again - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:41:45 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:18:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Hall


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:53:01 -0400
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:17:08 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:30:16 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

<snip>

>Ray Stanford

All right, I can't resist any longer. Although I have not
followed this thread (out of sheer disinterest) except for an
occasional peek, I suggest they be renamed the "Varginha
Monologues."  The joke, for our overseas contributors who may
not be aware of it, derives from the stage play the "Vagina
Monologues."


 -  Dick









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 28

             Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:49:30 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:46:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Sparks


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:41:50 +0000
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>From: Alfred Webre <Exopolitics <exopolitics.nul>>
>>To: media.nul
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>PRESS RELEASE -- UNIVERSITY RESEARCHER RELEASES REPORT ON THE
>>MOTIVATIONS AND ACTIVITIES OF EXTRATERRESTRIAL RACES VISITING
>>EARTH

>>Dr Michael E. Salla, a former Assistant Professor and current
>>Researcher-in-Residence at American University, Washington DC.,
>>claims that as many as 57 extraterrestrial races are currently
>>visiting the Earth. Of these races, he claims that 17 have most
>>significance for the evolution and sovereignty of humanity. He
>>divides these races into two groups. The first group, he claims,
>>comprises seven races that are connected as a network through a
>>series of secret agreements between themselves and 'shadow
>>governments' in the <?xml:namespace prefix =3D st1 ns =3D
>>"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />United States and
>>elsewhere. This group, according to Dr Salla, are part of a vast
>>military-industrial-extraterrestrial complex fully funded by
>>'black budgets' in the US and other nations. He believes that a
>>second grouping of ten extraterrestrial races are outside of
>>this network of agreements and offer humanity the best chance
>>for a positive future.

<snip>

>Barf! What we badly need is strong medication for diarrhea of
>the mouth. Not to mention extreme brain-warp.

>- Dick

Well said Dick Hall.

Now Michael Salla go to your room! And don't come out again
until you have come to your senses and learned your lessons from
the Hall! ("Salle" is French for "room" or "hall.")







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 28

                  Re: Charles Fort: Godfather of Postmodern

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:50:31 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:58:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Charles Fort: Godfather of Postmodern


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:44:16 -0700
>Subject: Charles Fort: Godfather of Postmodern Relativism

<snip>

>He published his collections and speculations in four books: The
>Book of the Damned (1919), New Lands (1923), Lo! (1931) and Wild
>Talents (1932).

My introduction to the new reissue of 'Lo!' appears on
the back cover of the Cosimo edition:

http://www.cosimobooks.com

Cosimo is going to reprint all of Fort's books, if I understand
correctly.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot.nul)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com

Cydonian Imperative: http://cydonianimperative.blogspot.com

New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 28

              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:09:46 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:01:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Boone


>From: Alfred Webre <Exopolitics <exopolitics.nul>>
>To: media.nul
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races



>PRESS RELEASE - UNIVERSITY RESEARCHER RELEASES REPORT ON THE
>MOTIVATIONS AND ACTIVITIES OF EXTRATERRESTRIAL RACES VISITING
>EARTH

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into UFOLogy.

This report is just what the doctor ordered. It's got alot going
for it and because it's 'free' and no price tag associated it's
irresistable to read.

One could interpret it in any number of ways.

Bottom line is it's formatted properly from a scholar.

It has alarming information that most of us on this list are
familiar with. It even quotes and footnotes many of the
UFOlogists we all know.

The best quote is "They shall know you by your deeds.", which is
what I've been saying all along.

Adding to it the various points of views worldwide I'm sure the
majority of denizens on the Earth would read it and rightfully
say, "See? Satan's at it again, he's conned these scientists and
the government's in bed with him."

It's an easy, easy, interpretation.

Yet for the scientist in all of us we'd say, " Life sure has
taken some mighty weird turns! "

I'ld like to see more data from non-ufological sources to round
out the paper.

As in depth as this paper is it still leaves us with no 'proof'
but leads to where the 'proof' can be obtained. Since no one in
their right mind is going to waltz up to a heavily secured
military facility and gain access we're back to square one.

Yet history proves that no matter how tight lipped something is,
somehow, somewhere a loose lip will flip.

Key to me now is how this paper will be examined. If it's
attacked hostily then you know it hit a nerve. If it's
professionally examined and refuted without the condescending
nonsense then that will be fine.

Yet if just one, just one of these claims can be proven then it
will be 'Katie bar the door'.


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 28

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <BRB47x.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:25:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:06:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:33:23 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:59:40 EDT
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>>All very excellent points! Many of these points have been
>>addressed by SETI theoreticians and often from an anti-UFO
>>position.

>>What we need in the UFO community is for someone in the pro-UFO
>>camp to do better, scientifically more fair modeling, which will
>>require some hard theoretical work to develop some numbers and
>>tests for these ideas. Each one can be modeled and tested.

>>We can easily see some kind of distinction between "stealthy"
>>behavior and "open" behavior, for example, let's develop some
>>numbers. But it's going to require a lot more work than any of
>>us apparently can put into a quickie email posting. And it will
>>never be done at all if it gets thought- terminated by the
>>"they're so advanced" argument.

>Thanks Brad!

>I think Mr. Friedman answered it all in his post. He pointed out
>several of his papers which focus on UFO behavior. That's a plus
>because it's collected data that shows the 'actions' not the
>speculations.

>That's the bottom line. I can't take anymore 'messages from the
>space brothers' reports because it's full of arbitraries to the
>point you feel like you're not reading a report, but a new
>episode of the old 'Outer Limits' tv show.

I agree.

>Statistics and actions are what we need. Then those stats and
>actions interpreted and presented by the professionals from the
>various scientific fields. Then we the public and put them
>together and make up our own minds.

Yes, we need better numerical models for ETH to test against the
UFO data. I am glad you mentioned Stan Friedman because he has
been one of the few who have tried to do that over the years, in
response to attacks from the SETI camp.

Unfortunately, when I go to UFO conventions the reaction I get
to Stan's name being mentioned is the eyes rolling because of
his famous broken-record repetitiousness of his lectures and
papers. No one in the UFO community seems to listen to Stan or
pay any real attention to the many valid points he has made over
the years.

For example, Stan long ago punctured the SETI anti-UFO anti-ETH
argument (I think Carl Sagan started it, but I may remember this
wrong) that each UFO sighting has to represent a separate
individual interstellar visitation direct from a distant star
system.

Stan pointed out, quite rightly, that we would not do something
that wasteful, we would have smaller scout ships and
surveillance devices aboard a "mother ship" so the sightings
would probably always be of these shorter range vehicles and
probably never of the well-hidden actual interstellar mother
ship.

One can attack this as "anthropomorphic thinking" but we have to
start there with the simplest theories, with what human behavior
teaches us first, before progressing to more complex theories of
"alien motivations". That is basic scientific methodology, in
accordance with Occam's Razor as presently formulated.

Stan has also been a lone voice crying in the wilderness as to
the largest statistical analysis of UFO and IFO data ever
conducted, the Blue Book Special Report No. 14 by the Battelle
Memorial Institute. No one listens to Stan on the Battelle
study. No one in the UFO community even knows the true story of
why the Battelle study came to be in the first place -- it's
always the bland blah blah about how someone wanted to do some
statistics blah blah blah.

The real story is that the new Project GRUDGE Chief Lt. Ruppelt
plotted UFO sightings on a map to do a geographic analysis as
one of his first projects upon taking over the revived Project
GRUDGE. Ruppelt was surprised to find a large number of clusters
of UFO sightings around highly sensitive strategic US military
and nuclear bases.

When Ruppelt briefed the new director of AF Intelligence, Gen.
Samford, on this in Dec. 1951 Samford was startled too, and
ordered that a full-scale scientific study be conducted for the
specific purpose of verifying Ruppelt's findings regarding UFOs
concentrated around strategic nuclear and military bases. ATIC
had just started a broad ranging consulting contract with
Battelle on a wide variety of non-UFO intelligence subjects
(analysis of Soviet metallurgy, etc.) and made Samford's orders
for the UFO geographic study part of an important sub-project
(PPS 100) at Battelle, and added into it a broader statistical
study of UFO sightings, plus laboratory services on UFO-related
physical samples. By the time Battelle fully verified Ruppelt's
findings, in Jan. 1953, no one cared anymore.

The statistical study violated the new policy that Samford's
number two man, Gen. Garland, had established as a new
intelligence methodology (which was to stop wasting time doing
analyses of low-grade reports), and it had continued at Battelle
only because it was Samford's direct orders and personal
interest in verifying Ruppelt's map findings. Thus something
like $100,000 was spent by the AF on the Battelle study.

>One thing that tickled me recently was discussing this issue
>with some very important folks. These folks grew up in the past
>century surviving everything from concentration camps to
>earthquakes, etc. Mostly all senior folk, still active today in
>various fields. They can talk the talk because they walked the
>walk. If I mention Gen. MacArthur, I'll get a first hand story
>about him. Same with Pres. Truman.....

<snip>

The true story behind Truman's firing of MacArthur in 1951
finally came out this year I think, 2004. NSA's predecessor
agency, AFSA, intercepted a foreign communication which revealed
that a foreign government's diplomats had been told by MacArthur
that he wanted to bring Communist China into the Korean War so
he could nuke China (if I recall all this correctly).

MacArthur was blabbing this rather indiscriminately to non-US
officials, and knew this dangerous course of action was flatly
against Truman's policy (to say nothing of inviting a nuclear
WWIII). When Truman received this TOP SECRET Codeword intercept
about what MacArthur was blabbing to foreign governments that
was the last straw.


Brad Sparks








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 28

                  Scientific Survey Of Hessdalen Phenomenon

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:36:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:13:21 -0400
Subject: Scientific Survey Of Hessdalen Phenomenon


Source: Journal of Scientific Exploration
Vol. 18, no. 2, pp. 217-251(35)

http://www.ingenta.com/isis/searching/Expand/ingenta?pub=infobike://sse/jse/2004
/00000018/00000002/art00004

06-01-04

A Long-Term Scientific Survey of the Hessdalen Phenomenon

Teodorani M.

Abstract:

The balls of light which appear in the Hessdalen valley in
Norway are exemplary of anomalous atmospheric luminous
phenomena that occur frequently at some locations on Earth.

The recurrence of the phenomenon and the existence of an
instrumented observation station makes this area an ideal
research site. The apparent correlation of luminous phenomena
with magnetic perturbations, radio emission, and radar tracks,
found by Norwegian researchers, led some Italian physicists and
engineers of the EMBLA Project to reanalyze the Norwegian data.

The second step was three explorative, instrumented, field-
study expeditions. The behavior of the phenomenon was monitored
with optical, radio, and radar techniques.

The global picture of the phenomenon obtained so far shows that
the phenomenon's radiant power varies, reaching values up to 19
kW. These changes are caused by sudden surface variations of the
illuminated area owing to the appearance of clusters of light
balls that behave in a thermally self-regulated way.

Apparent characteristics consistent with a solid are strongly
suspected from the study of distributions of radiant power.
Other anomalous characteristics include the capability to eject
smaller light balls, some unidentified frequency shift in the
VLF range, and possible deposition of metallic particles.

A self-consistent definitive theory of the phenomenon's nature
and origin in all its aspects cannot be constructed yet
quantitatively, but some of the observations can be explained by
an electrochemical model for the ball-lightning phenomenon.

The importance is stressed of using more sophisticated
instrumentation in the future.

Keywords: ATMOSPHERIC ANOMALY; HESSDALEN LIGHTS; PLASMA
PHYSICAL; BALL LIGHTNING; ASTROPHYSICAL TECHNIQUES; THEORY

Document Type: Research article ISSN: 0892-3310

Publisher: Society for Scientific Exploration


--
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright
1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 28

                        Re: Close-Up Photos - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:44:39 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:15:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Ledger


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:06:46 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:43:24 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

><snip>

>>>The book, UFO Richard Brunswick PhotoCollection
>>>By Goliath: ISBN 3-9805876-3-0 published in Germany.

>>>I really commend this book for a serious and objective look at
>>>just how, some UFO pictures across the decades have been caught
>>>by the camera, and most in this book I had not seen , as I
>>>understand these pictures were privatley collected by this man,
>>>over a few decades.

>>More details here:

>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/3980587630/aetherialnu0a-20/002-4488104-
5088867

>This is an interesting picture book that I picked up a few years
>ago at a local bookstore, but of extremely limited value for
>research. The photographs (some of which are quite strange toward
>the end) have very little text explanation, if any at all.
>There's some information on the person who collected these
>images over many years, but there's no pretense that these have
>been investigated and in some cases the images aren't identified
>by much at all.

>As I recall, there was indication that Richard Brunswick (the
>collector of these images) was involved in UFO research for a
>number of years, but the only reference to him I find on the
>Internet is in relation to the sale of this collection of
>images. I'm curious as to whether or not he actually obtained
>rights to publish these images, but like most older material
>there are few in a position to complain about it.


Hi Steve,

What percentage would you say are credible photos, or at least
deserve a look?


Don








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 28

                        Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:53:26 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:19:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:32:23 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:29:28 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0400
>>>Subject: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>>>Something seems wrong with all this to me - why has there not
>>>been, in the last 50 years, any reasonable close-up photos in
>>>the public domain? Is there some kind of law of UFOs that they
>>>will never approach the ground if someone has a camera? Or, even
>>>more ridiculously, only if the camera operator is a military
>>>employee with top-secret clearance who will not divulge the
>>>photos? Of all the abductees and near-abductees, no one had a
>>>camera? Or is it that the interdimensional nature of abductions
>>>means there is no physical object to photograph, and the
>>>physical objects flying around in the skies and detectable by
>>>radar are a different phenomena - possibly related, possibly
>>>unrelated?

>I think the points you raise are good ones, and especially
>important given the number of cameras that are now available in
>cell phones and PDAs. With the availability of cameras, both
>still and motion, we see little in the way of good UFO images.
>The exception being incidents like the Phoenix Lights case,
>where the event took place over a period of time and there were
>multiple witnesses with video cameras.
<snip>

I lost my entire lengthy draft email with a software crash and I
won't re-do it all.

Bottom line is it's simply numbers. The normal photo response
rates for photos of aerial events is very low. Thousands of
people saw the Rocky Mountain Fireball of Aug 10, 1972, and the
Ontario fireball ("Kecksburg") of Dec 9, 1965, but only a few
photos were produced, and even fewer good photos. That's only a
rate of something like on the order of 1 in 1,000 or roughly
0.1%. Even the Condon Committee was forced to admit (Bantam ed.
p. 589) that the rate of response for getting witnesses from a
population, and getting photos from a subset of the witnesses,
was for UFO's statistically "similar" to that for meteor
fireballs, meaning that UFO's were not unreal figments of
imagination but real like any other physical aerial phenomena.

(Any correction factor of longer duration for UFO events has to
be compensated for and counterbalanced with the much greater
emotional shock involved in UFO events, which entrance
witnesses, keeping them from thinking to go fetch cameras. Even
applying a 10x factor for longer durations does not help the low
UFO photo stats much, it's still very low, and the rate of
getting good photos will still cut that down further.)

To get closeup pics of UFOs good enough to tell anything, the
UFO images have to be roughly Full Moon in angular size or
bigger. Given average distances and average sizes that means
basically only Close Encounters can provide good closeup UFO
photos. Out of the several thousand CE cases on file one would
therefore expect only a handful of good closeup UFO photos (1 in
1,000 out of several thousands equals only "several"). Isn't
that exactly what we have?

The answer is simple numbers.


Brad Sparks








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 28

                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:27:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:26:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:29:28 EDT
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0400
>>Subject: Close-Up Photos

><snip>

>>Something seems wrong with all this to me - why has there not
>>been, in the last 50 years, any reasonable close-up photos in
>>the public domain? Is there some kind of law of UFOs that they
>>will never approach the ground if someone has a camera? Or, even
>>more ridiculously, only if the camera operator is a military
>>employee with top-secret clearance who will not divulge the
>>photos? Of all the abductees and near-abductees, no one had a
>>camera? Or is it that the interdimensional nature of abductions
>>means there is no physical object to photograph, and the
>>physical objects flying around in the skies and detectable by
>>radar are a different phenomena - possibly related, possibly
>>unrelated?

>Thank you for an immensely thought-provoking posting. The
>problem can be traced to a root cause which I call the Myth of
>the Almighty Camera. I have alluded to this many times earlier
>in postings to rebut numbers arguments about UFO photos, why so
>few?

>First, cameras are not objective instruments and photos are not
>pure objective instrument data. Cameras distort the
>representation of the incident light and various corrections
>must be applied to correct for spatial distortion of the lens
>and distortion of spectral sensitivities to light on the film.
>Photos are not purely objective because a human being with
>biases must interpret the photos.

Brad,

Your seeming definition of objectivity seems a bit off the mark,
to me. I think of objectivity (noun) as: judgment based on
observable phenomena and uninfluenced by emotions or personal
prejudices

Does a film make a judgment? In my opinion, objectivity or
subjectivity, by definition, become involved in interpretation,
only. The fact that a film's response curve to various
wavelengths of light does nor correspond precisely to that which
the human 'eye' perceives (which, itself, varies from person to
person, and some persons, in fact are quite 'color blind', and
much moreso than any good color film) does not constitute
subjectivity.

Perhaps you speak, instead, of perspective (optical perspective,
when we deal with cameras, per se). It is important that we
correctly determine spatial and optical perspectives and spatio-
temporal parameters, of course, but I believe that you are
mistaken to down-rate filmed images in favor of human vision-
perception. I doubt Dr. Richard Haines would agree with your
conclusion as to which is better for studying physical phenomena
associated with UFOs. I will demonstrate my case on that, below,
so brace yourself, Brad. :)

>Second, and this will surprise most people, cameras are poorer
>instruments than the human eye (and brain but let me just call
>it all the "eye" for simplicity).

Oh? Please considering the following:

At 12:04.5 P.M., Central Daylight Savings Time, on June 29,
1978, I was sitting at a window seat on the right side of
Continental Airlines Flight # 65 (San Antonio, Texas, to
Phoenix, Arizona), and we were at about 33,000 feet, looking out
in the vicinity of Fort Stockton, Texas. Seated beside me (in
the next seat from the window) was Kenny S_________, age 12, at
the time, and then from Miami, Florida.

It was a nice day for flying, with only a cumulonimbus cloud
("thunderhead") off some miles to our north. Kenny, whom I had
never met until he sat down beside me on that flight, asked me
why I had that fancy movie camera (with a 10-X telephoto zoom
lens) sitting on my lap and why I was so expectantly glancing
frequently out the aircraft window.

I told Kenny that if he had seen what several of us aboard
Braniff flight # 9 on December 12, 1977 (La Guardia to DFW,
about six months earlier) had seen in broad daylight and I had
filmed, he would be anxiously looking out that window with a
camera, too.

After some minutes had passed, I noticed a seemingly domed,
incredibly black spherical object between us and the
cumulonimbus cloud top. Kenny must have noticed it at about the
same time, because before I could think to call his attention to
it or even pick up my movie camera, he excitedly asked, "Mr.
Stanford. what is that weird black object out there?!"

"What does it look like to you, Kenny", I asked.

"It looks like a UFO to me!", the boy answered.

"That's what it looks like to me, too, Kenny. Watch me film it."

Kenny watched while I filmed. The whole time I was filming (at
10-X telephoto, set at infinity), and before, the object looked
to both Kenny and me to be blacker than the ace of spades! After
a good period of filming, an in-the-film-plane vertical ring of
something resembling a lighter-colored 'vapor' momentarily
formed around the black object, seemingly with a strong smoke-
ring-like spin. Quickly, after that ring formed, the object took
off in the direction opposite from us, heading toward the upper
part of the cumulonimbus cloud out to its north.

What happened next startled both Kenny and me even more: As the
domed sphere (with its dome seemingly now tilted somewhat into
the direction of travel) headed at high speed toward that cloud
top, it looked as though a 'cave' was magically opened ahead of
it, into the cloud top, and the object flew into that 'cave',
and cloud closed in behind it, concealing the object! It gave me
a rather weird feeling when that happened, because it was more
like something I might expect to see in a Hollywood movie than
in reality.

I awaited to see if the UFO would emerge from the cloud top,
before I cut off the camera, but if it emerged, neither Kenny
nor I observed it doing so. Then, immediately, I turned on my
micro-cassette recorder, documented all the pertinent data, and
then interviewed Kenny about what he had seen, with the jet
engines whining in the background, providing 'local color'.

Now, Brad, here's my point: Although Kenny and I saw the UFO as
dark black the whole time, guess how many of the hundreds of
movie frames show it as black? The answer is, exactly ONE! In
all other frames, the object is either a solid, bright white, or
white on the top hemisphere and black on the bottom hemisphere,
or black on the top hemisphere and bright white on the bottom
half, etc!

What that seems to indicate is that the movie film was seeing
far more than our visual systems. In short, one might deduce
that highly luminous events on (or adjacent to) the object's
surface were of such short duration that the human visual system
simply could not acquire then, even though the film did,
revealing something no human observers could possibly have seen
and reported: High-speed luminous phenomena which may be
pertinent to deducing the physics of UFO propulsion.

Now, tell me, Brad, that the human eye was a more valuable
observer than the movie film. :)

Can 'still' photos (as contrasts with movies) also be more
informative than the human visual system? Count on it, as
demonstrated in many of my project's film cases, such as the
following:

The event date was November 16, 1989, with the observation
beginning at exactly 17:00 hours and photography commencing
about one minute later. The object was photographed by me,
looking westward from curb in front of the entrance to the
Public Affairs Building (Building 8) at NASA's Goddard Space
Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland.

The people coming out of the Public Affairs Building saw the
object and me photographing it, but I thought it best not to say
anything to them, being on a government facility. I was busy
steadying that 20-X lens on the object and didn't even have time
to look and notice if I knew any of them. (It seems funny, but I
got the subjective impression that at least some of those
witnesses might be feeling that I was 'on official business'
filming the UFO there, and that they really weren't supposed to
be seeing what was happening!)

Camera: Canon T 90, using a Celestron C 90 1,000 mm catadioptric
(two-mirrored) lens (20-X), 5 photos on Fujichrome P 1600
(pushed to 3200 asa) film (35 mm) at aperture f 11 and shutter
speed of 1/500 second.

In the fifth and final photo, one notices what seems to be ion-
vapor effects contouring a dipolar magnetic field surrounding
the UFO, with a hint of more reddish color at what appear to be
the magnetic 'polar vents'. Although I have much higher-
resolution examples of ion-induced visibility of UFO dipolar
magnetic fields in daylight, in several UFO movies, this example
in a still photo is just one more proof that high-speed,
invisible-to-the eye, propulsion-related phenomena can be filmed
that are unperceived by the human 'eye' because of the speed of,
for example, magnetohydrodynamic phenomena.

<snip>

>But most important of all, cameras cannot interpret what they
>"see," whereas the human being despite all his/her faults and
>limitations can and does interpret and analyze the observation,
>and usually attempts to investigate and explain the sighting in
>conventional terms first -- unlike the camera which cannot
>think, react, or try to explain the light that is incident
>through its lenses.

No instrument interprets what it is recording, yet physics
simply cannot be conducted on UFOs without instrumented data.
That data (even an optical image) must subsequently be
interpreted either by a human brain or by some 'expert' data
analysis system. So what! Your discussion is like comparing
watermelons to peanuts! There is no substitute for
instrumentally recorded data, whether that instrument be a
camera, a magnetometer, a gravimeter, an interferometer, or
whatever. It is the only way we can get quantitative data, for
example.

>A human being suitably trained or debriefed
>can retrieve immense amounts of data far beyond camera
>capability, in part due to the human's efforts to "escalate the
>hypotheses" (as Hynek called it) in an attempt to explain what
>he/she sees.

Hypothesizing is best left until after an event, anyhow, when
emotions are cooler. I'm not minimizing human capability, but am
profoundly aware of the frailty of the human mind in
interpreting and misinterpreting observations it simply cannot
understand.

Tell me, Brad, that looking at the light of any UFO is more
revealing than what I can get with one photo with my project's
spectrum camera! :) On the night of July 19, 1978, for example,
on the New Mexico desert, the project's mobile laboratory crew
(including myself) encountered two amazingly deep red (the color
was strikingly pure-looking), ellipsoidal UFOs with equally deep
red coronas that flashed at a different rate than did their
surfaces. But there was nothing within our visual systems that
could tell us how absolutely extraordinarily that pure red light
really was. It took our spectrum camera to reveal to us the fact
that the light was a 'single line' emission (highly remarkable,
in itself) that displayed (most amazing of all) 'line
splitting'. That spectrum clearly demonstrates that the light
was either being emitted in the presence of a very strong
electrical field, a very strong magnetic field, or both.
Simultaneously, we were recording an associated and very strong
extreme low-frequency magnetic field radiating from the objects.

That's two distinct kinds of evidence suggesting that the
objects had very strong magnetic and electrical fields, exactly
as predicted my manetohydrodynamic propulsion theory.
Furthermore. simultaneously with each strong magnetic pulse, our
radio reception of WWVB (for time correlation of the various
data we were recording) from Fort Collins, Colorado, would drop
proportionately, just as one might expect with
magnetohydrodynamic pulses disturbing the stability of the
ionosphere, on which we depended for reflected reception of the
WWVB radio signal from below our horizon.

So, Brad, do you think the human eye could have out-done our
spectrum camera that night? :) The only thing we could have told
you about that light by visual observation was that it looked
extremely pure and 'crystalline', so we might have, thus,
speculated that it might have been 'single line' light, but
photographing the light spectra proved that both UFOs were
emitting the same totally pure wavelength of light -- so pure
that it could not have been any purer.

>What this is leading up to is this: UFO photographs do not
>provide 100% objective evidence...

Give us a break, Brad! There is just evidence when we deal with
an instrument record, such as a filmed optical record. The rest
is interpretation, and, therein lies the objectivity or lack of
it. Not in the data, per se.

But when we deal with human observations, there is no hard data
and the problem of accuracy of memory and subjective
interpretation warping the 'memory', especially with time, is
considerable. Memory and interpretation are inseparable. (That's
why I popped out my recorder immediately after Kenny and I had
seen and filmed the UFO.) During the UFO events with our
project's mobile laboratory, for example, two different types of
time-correlated audio recordings were made simultaneously. You
see, one still needs the instrument-recorded data, without which
attempts at scientific UFOlogy are as a stranger wandering in a
very strange land.

>And UFO
>photos are poorer in quality than the human eye registration of
>imagery...

The problem is, Brad, that we are not dealing just with human
eye registration, we are dealing with human mind registration,
and therein is the fly in the ointment, without an
instrumentally-recorded record of events which humans 'witness'.

Also, our project's evidences indicate very high-speed (short
durational) luminous, magnetic, and gravity-like events in
association with UFOs and the air around them. Sorry, but the
human visual system just did not evolve to process events as
fast as those we have recorded. The 'eye' is much poorer at
documenting UFO events than are good instruments.

>Usually most such CE witnesses are so
>entranced by what they are seeing that they do mot think of
>cameras.

Quite right, Brad, but the 'entrancing' may be due to more than
just emotional reaction to what is being observed or perceived.
You see, the extreme low-frequency (ELF) magnetic phenomena we
have recorded during filmed, daylight and nocturnal visual UFO
events happens to fall squarely into the neurophysiological
frequency range of deep, restful sleep!

Examples of one of several possible effects of UFO generated ELF
effects are found on our well-document recordings made, for
example on the aforementioned night in New Mexico, July 19-20,
1978. While strong ELF magnetic waves were being recorded by
our magnetometer, our audio recording of everything from the
UFOs sounds to every camera click documents that we observed the
same startling change in the color and shape of one of the two
UFO's TWICE. Yet, when we listened to that tape afterwards, each
of us were startled. We could recall that startling change
happening only _once_!

Well, Brad, I hope I've not seemed too harsh in questioning your
position. I learned long ago that if we find all our friends in
agreement with us, we are in dire need of new friends. :)


Best wishes,

Ray Stanford






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 28

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:52:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:29:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:45:30 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:07:18 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:37:51 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

><snip>

>>>I am not sure I see how government coverup relates to the level
>>>of alien technology being assumed - inconsistently - in attempts
>>>to define models of UFO activity and behavior.

><snip>

>>Well said, Brad.

>>I agree with you that this field would be improved by having a
>>set of fundamental understood ideas about the origin,
>>technology, and motives.

><snip>

>And a 'well said' to you too, Kyle.

>Again I say break things down to the bottom line: Deeds.

>>From where I sit it's an issue of predator and prey.

>In a nutshell the preponderance of evidence clearly states that
>an overwhelming number of people across the demographics have
>reported what they believe to be interraction with human and non
>human life forms who exhibit advanced technology, super
>intelligence, stealth, camouflage, mind/perception manipulation,
>speed and patience.

>That's an awesome array of hunting skills. Almost as good as our
>eons long adversary the female Mosquito.

>Lots of that evidence points to extraterrestrial origins. Lots
>of it doesn't. Bottom line is it's long term and uncannaly
>pervasive.

>No doubt we're interracting yet now it's time to look at the
>prey:

>Us.

>We're disjointed, uncooperative, arguementative, violent,
>bigoted, lazy, aberrated. All the things a predator would want
>in a prey.

>By looking at the common denominators we can see why it's so
>easy to pick us off for so long. We're responsible for creating
>an unsafe envioronment that allows these interractions.

>Since our only defense would be to agree and get along I suspect
>we'll be on the dinner plate for quite some time to come.


Now this is the type of healthy exchange of ideas, albeit at times
a little too heated, that keeps me reading and posting.

One question.....

Does anyone have something that could be called a good statistic
on the percentage of the world population... and more
specifically the US... has actually stated that they have seen a
UFO... something they believe couldn't have been from "around
here"?

I find stats on those who believe that UFOs exist all over the
place, but while that seems to be a valuable statistic to a
sociologist, it seems equally worthless in any scientific UFO
context.

And I'm also very weary of the "message from the space brothers"
testimony. While I am unable to label it false, lest I incur any
wrath should they be right, it eludes my grasp due to the
gargantuan grain of salt accompanying it. Alas, my prejudice
revealed.


Thanks to all,

Kyle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 28

                   Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:39:53 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:34:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Gates


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:44:17 -0400
>Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack

>>From: Donald Ratsch <sts48.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:58:58 -0400
>>Subject: Bible Predicts Alien Attack

>>Bible Predicts Alien Attack

>>http://home.comcast.net/~sts48/biblealienattack.html

>>1. Bible UFO Prophecy Scenario

>>2. Bible Proof

>That kind of 'prediction' is unadulterated B.S.! The attack
>humankind should actually worry about is the one against
>rationality and scientific thinking such as exemplified in that
>contrived regurgitation of writing(s) taken as 'revealed',
>infallible, and as the literal Word Of God.

I always got a kick out of the various people and their various
interpretations over the years of what the scriptures really
mean.

For example during the Pacific High Altitude nuke tests in the
late 50s (the one that turned the lights off in Hawaii) Billy
Graham was quoted in Life magazine as saying that Armageddon
would happen by 1962 or there abouts.

Then you had the various end-of-the-worlders quoting scripture
and telling us how Armageddon was going to happen no later then
1969, then 1975, then 1979, then the early 80s, the mid
eighties, the late 80s, and so forth through 2000, when for sure
and absolute that was going to be the end. During Gulf War 1
Jerry Falwell sent out a letter semi endorsing somebody who was
touting that Gulf War 1 was going to be Armageddon and on and
on.

Couple all of that trash with the people interpreting
Nostradamus, the UFO cults predicting the end-of-the-world,
Hale Bopp, the remote viewers telling us around 1997 how a
Martin hive coloney was in New Mexico and etc etc etc.

Then we have the alleged end of the so called Mayan calender in
December 2012.

Then you have the same sort (should I say theories and
speculations) of drival pronounced by so called main stream
science over the years, with the only difference being is when
they spout theories and speculations, that is considered more
acceptable information then the above.

For example we were told in 1979 how the world was turning into
an ice cube and we were going to have global freezing, then they
switch to global warming, now we are headed back to the global
freezing ice age theories.

I recall a press release from NASA/Hubble stating that based
upon what they are seeing in the photographs (let that read a
big and giant photointerpretation here) that their was so called
dark matter in the universe. Keep in mind that they didn't
actually have a physical speciman that could be taken to 13 labs
and be independently checked and verified, but they only had a
photograph and they came up with the conclusion based upon in
essence photo interpretation. Yet if you show them a photo of a
UFO, we start hearing the back peddling about how they actually
have to have a piece of physical evidence and why photographs
are not sufficent.....

The point of this is not to dish science, religion, or UFOs, but
to point out over the years there has been bogus
information/individuals come out of those fields and the field
of so called main stream science is no more reliable then
religion and or UFOs.


Cheers,

Robert








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 28

                   UFOs Hubble And The Age Of The Universe

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:49:24 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:37:09 -0400
Subject: UFOs Hubble And The Age Of The Universe


UFOs Hubble and the age of the Universe.

This was a post I did quite awhile ago, but thought the List
would enjoy it.

In the beginning Edwin Hubble speculated/believed that the
Universe was 2 billion years old, interestingly based on light
observations. The general scientific truth is/was that the big
bang happened and the universe started to expand. However the
force of gravity put the brakes on the expansion similar to
brakes being applied on a car. So it was thought and taught that
the universe was slowing down.

Uncertanties over the Universes so called rate of expansion
apparently led to debate and speculation over the years with
asundry dates and numbers (kind of like the debates between pro
UFO and skeptibunkers). Some of the early analysis was 5-8
billion years old later some speculated as high as 20 billion.

In 1997 Hubble astronomers announced a so called reliable age of
the universe. However that soon got complicated with the
discovery that the Universe was not expanding at the generally
thought of constant rate, but apparently accelerated do to some
unknown repulsive force that astronomers called dark matter.

Note so called scientists never actually had a sample of this
"dark matter" but it was based upon photo interpretation.
Alleged existance of "dark matter" is a rather extraordinary
claim I would say. Not to mention the extraordinary claim about
how the Universe is not accelerating in a constant fashion.

Then in May of 2000 we were told that Hubble could see missing
Hydrogen which had been previously thought to exist and
allegedly was cooked up in the big bang but supposedly
disappeared in space never be seen..that is until Hubble. Again
this is/was based on photo interpretation of seeing alleged
ionized oxygen between two galaxys, which the "implication" was
they had actually found this missing Hydrogen. Naturally in the
press release the headline was not something along the lines of
the find was "implied" but in fact it said: Lost and Found:
Hubble finds much of the Universe's missing Hydrogen.

Scientists don't actually have a physical sample of this alleged
Hydrogen that can be independently verified at labs etc etc.
Note we were also told that this verified (validated if you
will) all of the models blah blah blah. Bottom line is another
extraordinary claim with zero, zip, nadda physical evidence
other then photo.

Can anybody imagine a pro UFO press release that had the wording
along the lines of implied discovery of UFOS based on actually
seeing something else. The skeptibunkers and CSICOP would be
standing in line to be the first ones to label it unprovable,
junk science etc etc.

On April 24th 2002 the age of the Universe was pronounced to be
13 to 14 billion years old based on Hubble photos of the charred
husks of some white dwarfs in M-4. Again essentially based on
photo interpretation as scientists don't actually have a sample
of the charred husks to send to 20 labs to actually verify what
they claim is in the photo. Yet again another extraordinary
claim based on _no_ physical (you know touch, feel) evidence.

The point being that so called main stream science is more then
happy to go with a photo interpretation if its something they
embrace/like. However if you mention the word "UFO" you would
instantly hear blather about how we need actual physical
samples, actual verified contact, actual ET craft for scientists
to walk in and examine etc etc.

I would expect the skeptibunkers will probably rationalize all
of this away, dribbling about "Carl Sagen said..." and making up
excuses and storys about why these Hubble photos should be taken
seriously but photographic evidence of UFOs should not.

As I have said previously I am still waiting for the cronies at
CSICOP to be all over these new Hubble discoverys just as much
as they are all over the subject of UFO photographs and other
such materials.


Cheers

Robert








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 28

                 Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races -

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:48:46 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:53:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races -


>>From: Alfred Webre <Exopolitics <exopolitics.nul>>
>>To: media.nul
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>PRESS RELEASE -- UNIVERSITY RESEARCHER RELEASES REPORT ON THE
>>MOTIVATIONS AND ACTIVITIES OF EXTRATERRESTRIAL RACES VISITING
>>EARTH

>>Dr Michael E. Salla, a former Assistant Professor and current
>>Researcher-in-Residence at American University, Washington DC.,
>>claims that as many as 57 extraterrestrial races are currently
>>visiting the Earth. Of these races, he claims that 17 have most
>>significance for the evolution and sovereignty of humanity. He
>>divides these races into two groups. The first group, he claims,
>>comprises seven races that are connected as a network through a
>>series of secret agreements between themselves and 'shadow
>>governments' in the United States and
>>elsewhere. This group, according to Dr Salla, are part of a vast
>>military-industrial-extraterrestrial complex fully funded by
>>'black budgets' in the US and other nations. He believes that a
>>second grouping of ten extraterrestrial races are outside of
>>this network of agreements and offer humanity the best chance
>>for a positive future.

><snip>

>Barf! What we badly need is strong medication for diarrhea of
>the mouth. Not to mention extreme brain-warp.

I agree Dick.

Everyone knows the Aliens are here to replenish their Mushrooms
(only native to Earth) which they use to absorb deadly DOR
created when in use of free energy (ORR) drives of their craft
with the added benefit of good food to eat too (Lightly salted
and fried in the Sun's rays, washed down with a good Lime
Squash).

:-)

Kind wishes

Col
http://www.colsweb.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 28

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedma

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:53:18 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:12:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedma


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:07:18 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:37:51 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>Well said, Brad.

>I agree with you that this field would be improved by having a
>set of fundamental understood ideas about the origin,
>technology, and motives.

>The theories touted here and elsewhere would likely require
>several parallel groups. Provide a common, updated database of
>UFO data to each group...photos, video, radar, eyewitness
>testimony, trace evidence, etc. Allow each group full access,
>and merge the subsequent findings...large and small...back into
>the database to prevent duplication, and to provide other groups
>with insights to further there own analyses. Of course, the
>database would grow with new reports and data, as well.

>UFO Group 1 - Technology... Analyze existing UFO data for
>performance characteristics and correlate with current and
>emerging terrestrial technologies, seeking commonalities which
>might lead to explanations for extreme UFo behavior. Fold
>results, good and bad, back into database.

>UFO Group 2 - Communication... Analyze current UFO data for its
>communication potential. Crop circles, symbols connected with
>UFOs, sounds, light patterns, etc., will be analyzed with an eye
>to a unified approach, assuming that if ETs are attempting
>communication, they would likely try various forms, but
>cryptically employed to draw out those with "eyes to see". Fold
>results, good and bad, back into database.

>UFO Group 3 - Physics... Analyze data for common physical
>behavior, even when in violation of current "accepted" paradigm.
>Allow the data to suggest alternative physics models, rather
>than fitting the data into existing paradigm. Correlate against
>current theories for multi-domensional reality, super-string
>theory and the like for commonalities which may be cross-
>supporting. Fold results back in.

>UFO Group 4 - Metaphysics... Analyze existing data and correlate
>with past and current sources, including Biblical sources,
>prophesy, remote viewing, PSI-OPS, etc.

>UFO Group 5 - Biology... Analyze data for commonalities of
>physical form beyond the typical "gray". correlate with existing
>theories of evolution in extreme environments here for possible
>insights. Fold results back in.

>Somewhere in this mix of analyses, one could expect that minor
>breakthroughs would be achieved. UFOlogy could evolve into a
>true science. Several good theories about UFOs would continue to
>compete...just as other sciences have multiple plausible
>theories awaiting the final kiss-off, or the final vindication.
>But those that promoted purely speculative rebuttals might be
>naturally hushed by the peer groups' single-mindedness of
>purpose and clear objectives. In fact, results might even
>require creation of new groups to handle "extra-disciplinary"
>phenomena.

>I can imagine a "think-tank" style institute...how about
>ITISAUFO... Institute for Technical Investigation and Scientific
>Analysis of UFOs. A "Brookings Institute" for UFO studies.

>I fear you are right in thinking that it would fall by bickering
>and in-fighting. It's not a money issue.

Sounds to me like work statements for Operation Majestic 12:

1. Evaluate wreckage seeking understanding and new knowledge
about materials, technological capabaility of devices, etc.
These data would be classified

2. Collect and evaluate instrumental data on flight behavior
including acceleration, change in em signatures as a function of
changes in direction.etc.These data would be classified.

3. Collect and evaluate data from physical trace cases. check on
means for effecting soil etc. - again in secret.

4. Theoretical evaluation putting 1, 2, 3 together.

5. Evaluation of alien behavior in abductions and in probable
events such as the April 1964 landing at Holloman, and in cases
such as the Cuban MIG case and other destructions of attacking
aircraft such as in 1952. When did they destroy.. after what
actions on our part?

Ought to keep a nice Black program busy for a long time.


Stan

Do note my latest MJ-12 paper at:

http://www.stanfriedman.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                         Out Of The Blue DVD Release

From: James Fox <jamesfoxufodocs.nul>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:48:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:57:25 -0400
Subject: Out Of The Blue DVD Release


Dear Friends,

We are proud to announce the long awaited Directors Edition
release of Out of the Blue! Featuring CNN news coverage,
interviews with the producers, outtakes and 15 minutes of
additional material not seen on TV.

In conjunction with Sci-Fi's Advocacy Initiative, promoting
congressional hearings through FOIA requests and media coverage,
he producers of Out of the Blue traveled to Washington DC and
handed out 435 copies of the film to each member of the House.
We hope this effort, along with further support, will eventually
pave the way to Congressional Hearings.


Copies of Out of the Blue are available on Amazon.com


If you enjoyed our film, Out of the Blue, please pass this
message along!



Warmest regards,

The Producers
James Fox
Tim Coleman
Boris Zubov
www.outoftheblue.tv

=====
James Fox
P.O. Box 829
Bolinas, CA 94924
415-519-9631
jamesfoxufodocs.nul
www.outoftheblue.tv







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                        Re: Close-Up Photos - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:30:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:00:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Kaeser


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:44:39 -0300
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:06:46 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:43:24 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>><snip>

>>>>The book, UFO Richard Brunswick PhotoCollection
>>>>By Goliath: ISBN 3-9805876-3-0 published in Germany.

>>>>I really commend this book for a serious and objective look at
>>>>just how, some UFO pictures across the decades have been caught
>>>>by the camera, and most in this book I had not seen , as I
>>>>understand these pictures were privatley collected by this man,
>>>>over a few decades.

>>>More details here:

>>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/3980587630/aetherialnu0a-20/002-4488104
-5088867

>>This is an interesting picture book that I picked up a few years
>>ago at a local bookstore, but of extremely limited value for
>>research. The photographs (some of which are quite strange toward
>>the end) have very little text explanation, if any at all.
>>There's some information on the person who collected these
>>images over many years, but there's no pretense that these have
>>been investigated and in some cases the images aren't identified
>>by much at all.

>>As I recall, there was indication that Richard Brunswick (the
>>collector of these images) was involved in UFO research for a
>>number of years, but the only reference to him I find on the
>>Internet is in relation to the sale of this collection of
>>images. I'm curious as to whether or not he actually obtained
>>rights to publish these images, but like most older material
>>there are few in a position to complain about it.

>Hi Steve,

>What percentage would you say are credible photos, or at least
>deserve a look?


Don,

The book is in deep storage now and I'll have to dig it out when
I get back from a week of R&R.

FYI, I may not have Internet access where I'm headed (Vancouver,
BC) and if not I'll be off line until August 1st.


Steve







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

             Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Rosati

From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:46:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:03:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Rosati


Yes, this article is a doozy. Its too easy to laugh at it,
dismiss it out of hand, be embarrased. If nothing else, it can
be consigned as a good summary of the state of an interesting
myth in the making.

But if we can stop laughing for a minute, and look not so much
at the article as all the threads it draws toghether, then some
other issues come into view.

The crux-of-the-matter question is, "are all these people
mentioned simply bald-faced liars?" Is it really possible that
all these different people, from the ex-military types on down,
are just nuts, liars, gold-diggers, publicity hounds? The
picture painted by all their testimony is >so< absurd, >so<
impossible, that really one doesn't know what to do with it. I
mean, of course there are people who make things up, for
whatever reason, perhaps mainly to get attention, but can all of
these people be dismissed that way, collectively?

Personally, I find myself between a rock and a hard place: I
have a hard time accepting either the "story" at face value _or_
the possibility of all these people being liars. Even if some
are liars, or most, all it would take is one who is not lying to
blow the whole thing wide open.

On the other hand, I really find it hard to belive that all this
stuff could have been going on all this time without many _more_
people coming forth to tell about it. All these scenarios would
require there being dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of
military, government, and scientific people who would know about
it, in which case its equally absurd to think that so few would
speak up, no matter how much secrecy they were sworn to. How
could so many people be privy to the greatest story in the
history of the world and there not be alot more who would find
it impossible to keep quiet?

No matter how you look at it, nothing makes any sense. I suppose
in some ways it is easier to believe that they are all lying or
deluded. The alternative, as I said, is just too ridiculous. If
it was just a matter of believing Adamskis and Mengers and
Meiers, there wouldn't really be much of a problem: people have
been having visions and hearing voices in their head throughout
all of recorded history in every culture. But these stories are
about events and things that, as described, should be objective,
three dimensional, verifiable, inhabitants of consensus reality.
If they were true, which is the big "if". They cant, on face
value, be true, but can all these witnesses be lying or crazy? A
rock and a hard place.


Dante







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                 Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:38:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:09:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Stanford


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:39:53 EDT
>Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:44:17 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack

>>>From: Donald Ratsch <sts48.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:58:58 -0400
>>>Subject: Bible Predicts Alien Attack

>>>Bible Predicts Alien Attack

>>>http://home.comcast.net/~sts48/biblealienattack.html

>>>1. Bible UFO Prophecy Scenario

>>>2. Bible Proof

>>That kind of 'prediction' is unadulterated B.S.! The attack
>>humankind should actually worry about is the one against
>>rationality and scientific thinking such as exemplified in that
>>contrived regurgitation of writing(s) taken as 'revealed',
>>infallible, and as the literal Word Of God.

>I always got a kick out of the various people and their various
>interpretations over the years of what the scriptures really
>mean.

>For example during the Pacific High Altitude nuke tests in the
>late 50s (the one that turned the lights off in Hawaii) Billy
>Graham was quoted in Life magazine as saying that Armageddon
>would happen by 1962 or there abouts.

>Then you had the various end-of-the-worlders quoting scripture
>and telling us how Armageddon was going to happen no later then
>1969, then 1975, then 1979, then the early 80s, the mid
>eighties, the late 80s, and so forth through 2000, when for sure
>and absolute that was going to be the end. During Gulf War 1
>Jerry Falwell sent out a letter semi endorsing somebody who was
>touting that Gulf War 1 was going to be Armageddon and on and
>on.

>Couple all of that trash with the people interpreting
>Nostradamus, the UFO cults predicting the end-of-the-world,
>Hale Bopp, the remote viewers telling us around 1997 how a
>Martin hive coloney was in New Mexico and etc etc etc.

>Then we have the alleged end of the so called Mayan calender in
>December 2012.

You are pretty much right-on concerning the above. In my 66
years, I've heard prediction after prediction by various
religions and cults concerning alleged upcoming disasters at
various dates, all failed.

And, yes, now people of the same mind tendency are predicting
serious consequences of 'the end of the Maya calendar'. And,
count on it, too, that if any event happens anywhere in the
world on that date that has any big news value, that will be
written down in their minds as confirmation of their beliefs
that the Maya had some special 'handle' on understanding time
and world events. I'll admit that back in my teens (1950s), I
might have been a bit concerned about an alleged end of the Maya
calendar, but now it is troubling to see adults all in a flurry
about such things. I expect that day to pass pretty much as any
other day, unless some fool decides to take disaster into his
own hands and tries to make something big happen on that day.

>Then you have the same sort (should I say theories and
>speculations) of drival pronounced by so called main stream
>science over the years, with the only difference being is when
>they spout theories and speculations, that is considered more
>acceptable information then the above.

>For example we were told in 1979 how the world was turning into
>an ice cube and we were going to have global freezing, then they
>switch to global warming, now we are headed back to the global
>freezing ice age theories.

Hold on there, Robert. You are missing a very important point
which scientists have learned that you either haven't noticed or
simply do not accept: Ice ages are induced by global warming. It
may seem paradoxical to you, but there is no contradiction. I
would try to explain the process here, but this is a UFO list,
and you can read a pretty thorough explanation by doing an
appropriate Google search. That understanding is in no way
analogous to religious cultists predicting Armageddon, etc., as
you suggest.

>I recall a press release from NASA/Hubble stating that based
>upon what they are seeing in the photographs (let that read a
>big and giant photointerpretation here) that their was so called
>dark matter in the universe. Keep in mind that they didn't
>actually have a physical speciman that could be taken to 13 labs
>and be independently checked and verified, but they only had a
>photograph and they came up with the conclusion based upon in
>essence photo interpretation.

They do not need a physical specimen to take into the laboratory
in order to know that there is dark matter out there, so just do
a Google search if you really want to try to learn the process
by which that has been determined. Don't put down scientific
photo interpretation unless you understand the nature of the
images involved and the methods used in their interpretation.
Then, if you have any real evidence that astronomers, worldwide,
are wrong about dark matter, prepare a paper for an
international astronomical journal and find your place in
history! You refer (above) to reading a press release. I doubt
you read even that very carefully. If you don't like reading the
actual scientific paper(s), them at least read a popularized
account, such as you can find in the excellent weekly Science
News.

>Yet if you show them a photo of a
>UFO, we start hearing the back peddling about how they actually
>have to have a piece of physical evidence and why photographs
>are not sufficent.....

Speaking generally, astronomers are in no way expert and not
highly knowledgeable about UFO evidences, and their view of such
is not entirely monolithic. They are highly individualistic. A
few of them are willing to look and listen carefully to good,
propulsion-diagnostic photographic evidences of UFOs, as I know
from experience.

I guess it would surprise you, totally, that just a very few
years ago, I attended at the NASA Goddard Space Flight Center,
an officially NASA-sanctioned Science (or was it engineering, I
forget, because they have both, there) Colloquium presentation
on evidence for UFOs by none less than Mark Rodeghier, Ph.D., of
the Center for UFO Studies. Attendance is not mandatory, yet
Mark got a large audience, with intelligent and sincere
questions afterward - No pelican calls at all. :) - and a very
warm reception, if applause is a valid indicator. I recognized
the faces of many distinguished scientists and engineers from
the space program in the audience - people I recognized mainly
because my wife, who holds a very responsible position on the
Hubble Space Telescope project, had introduced me to them over
the years. In fact, I would say Mark's presentation had a rather
'upper-crust' NASA audience.

Of course, NASA has no officially acknowledged UFO research
program, but individual scientists are quite open-minded. That
is not a monolithic condition by any means, however. Scientists
are, of course, people, and among all classes of people,
opinions and prejudices vary.

>The point of this is not to dish science, religion, or UFOs,
but >to point out over the years there has been bogus
>information/individuals come out of those fields and the field
>of so called main stream science is no more reliable then
>religion and or UFOs.

That last statement is demonstrably false! Science involves
itself in the process of review and debate. Since when do
religions do that? :) Science is an exploratory and expansive
process, with naturally some errors, but it embodies a self-
 correcting process. Religion is neither concept-exploratory,
nor does it strive for objectivity. Scientific predictions are
generally correct, predictions of the religious usually fail.

Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                        Re: Varginha Again - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:50:03 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:12:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Bourdais


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:41:45 +0000
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:53:01 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again


><snip>

>All right, I can't resist any longer. Although I have not
>followed this thread (out of sheer disinterest) except for an
>occasional peek, I suggest they be renamed the "Varginha
>Monologues."  The joke, for our overseas contributors who may
>not be aware of it, derives from the stage play the "Vagina
>Monologues."


Dick and All

This time, I am not going to say that I find you funny, like I
did after a silly joke of Brad Sparks. Someone thought I was
taking side with him ! I was not.

So, "let's make things clear", like President Nixon used to say:
I don't find this funny at all!

The Varginha case already stands as a very strong one, with many
credible witnesses. If some phony pictures have appeared, they
don't change that. And the fact there have been some confusing
messages about the remarkable testimony of a Doctore, should not
change that either. Read again the article of Bob Pratt and
Cynthia Luce in the Mufon UFO Journal of August 1998, for
instance, or any other article. I just quoted one from the
British UFO Magazine (April 2003) which apparently nobody knows
on this list.

BTW, talking of bad cases, I recommend that you take out of your
excellent book "The UFO Evidence" the Ummo case, which is known
worldwide to be a hoax. The authors of the fake landing of
Alluche (1966) and of the fake pictures of San Jose de Valdeiras
(1967) were unmasked long ago by spanish ufologists.


Gildas Bourdais







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                Re: Estill Springs' Girls Spot UFO - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:05:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:14:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Estill Springs' Girls Spot UFO - Stanford


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: UFO Updates" <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:58:40 -0500
>Subject: Estill Springs' Girls Spot UFO

>Source: The Tullahoma News: The Herald-Chronicle

>http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1614&dept_id=515334&newsid=12498306&PAG=
461&rfi=9

>07-27-04

>Estill Springs' Girls Spot UFO; Next Time they will get
>Picture...

>Nine-year-old Haley Atwood and Charlie Holmes are best friends.
>They wear matching bracelets, necklaces, flip-flops and
>nailpolish. They agree about everything-well almost-Haley's not
>quite ready to let go of summer and start back to school like
>Charlie is, but both agree they are slightly bored and pretty
>much ready to go back

>They've spent the summer playing tag, dressing-up, watching UFO
>documentaries on TV, painting each other's nails, swimming,
>riding bikes and walking around their neighborhood in Estill
>Springs. Both will enter fourth grade at Rock Creek Elementary
>School and they will tell their class about the most exciting
>thing that happened to them this summer-they spotted a UFO while
>out walking the dog.

>The excitement shines in Haley's eyes as she describes the
>experience (she is the spokesperson for the two and Charlie
>pipes in an occasional "uh-huh, that's right" whenever
>appropriate). Both have no doubts that what they saw on
>Wednesday, July 14th on Lakeview St. in Estill Springs was a
>certified UFO. They have pictures to prove it, they say, as they
>scurry to get the drawings they made to illustrate what they
>saw. Their drawings are strikingly similar. Haley pointed out
>the UFO's in their drawings and explained the fire below and the
>symbols below the UFO, a duck, a star and a "Z" shape.

<snip>

>"We think they [aliens] were sending messages to Earth about
>something. <snip>

Elementary, my dear Watson! Clearly that craft was from the
planet Pelacanis, native abode of the pelicans. Translated, the
message reads, "UFO researchers are quacks (the duck symbol),
are all too starry eyed (the star), and are phenomenalogically
asleep and snoring (Zzzzzzzzz)!

I always thought the pelicans had some kind of secret
development project on-going somewhere. :)


Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:21:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:16:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Warren


>From: Brad Sparks <BRB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:25:07 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:33:23 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>>Statistics and actions are what we need. Then those stats and
>>actions interpreted and presented by the professionals from the
>>various scientific fields. Then we the public and put them
>>together and make up our own minds.

>Yes, we need better numerical models for ETH to test against the
>UFO data. I am glad you mentioned Stan Friedman because he has
>been one of the few who have tried to do that over the years, in
>response to attacks from the SETI camp.

>Unfortunately, when I go to UFO conventions the reaction I get
>to Stan's name being mentioned is the eyes rolling because of
>his famous broken-record repetitiousness of his lectures and
>papers. No one in the UFO community seems to listen to Stan or
>pay any real attention to the many valid points he has made over
>the years.

Brad,

Oh contraire, Brad! I had to read the afore mentioned paragraph
a few times, looking for the punchline - but it seems your
serious - "no one in the UFO community seems to listen to Stan?"
Are you kidding? Have you noticed how long this very thread has
been going on, and the various input? DO you realize that Stan
is one of the most "sought after" speakers in the field, and
consequently, one of the busiest. (If not the busiest!); his
work dedication and credo to Ufology are matched by no one! He
has educated the ignorant by the masses all over the world, for
years! He is highly respected by his colleagues, and his name is
synonymous with Ufology! When mainstream media decides to dabble
in the subject, Stan's name is always on the top of the list of
desirable guests, speakers etc.

The only problem with Stan,is there isn't enough of him to go
around, and one of the problems with Ufology, is there aren't
enough of his caliber involved with the subject!

I hope this "ill conceived" observation is not a reflection of
"all your" contributions to Ufology!


Respectfully,

Frank Warren






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:45:07 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:21:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:52:58 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>Does anyone have something that could be called a good statistic
>on the percentage of the world population... and more
>specifically the US... has actually stated that they have seen a
>UFO... something they believe couldn't have been from "around
>here"?

I have checked many hundreds of lecture audiences - some as big
as 2,000... colleges, professional groups etc at the end of my
"Flying Saucers ARE Real!" lectures.

"How many here believe they have seen what I would describe as a
flying saucer, as I described earlier?. I count out loud.
Typically it is 10% of the people present. Then I ask "How many
of you have reported what you have seen?" Typically 10% of the
10%. Then I ask how many of the small group were in the military
at the time and if they want to tell the rest of us about it.
Get some great stories and wonderful lines like "I can't ; they
told me not to say anything." or "They took my pictures" etc.

>I find stats on those who believe that UFOs exist all over the
>place, but while that seems to be a valuable statistic to a
>sociologist, it seems equally worthless in any scientific UFO
>context.

>And I'm also very weary of the "message from the space
>brothers" testimony. While I am unable to label it false, lest
>I incur anywrath should they be right, it eludes my grasp due
>to the gargantuan grain of salt accompanying it. Alas, my
>prejudice revealed.

Belief questions require a better word than UFO. In one
classroom of 100 students asked to respond with their eyes
closed, 80% said they thought most people didn't think any UFOs
were ET Spacecraft, whereas 80% of the group did think some
were....


Stan Friedman








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                          Secrecy News -- 07/28/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:57:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:30:43 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/28/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 70
July 28, 2004


**      NATIONAL RECONNAISSANCE OFFICE DIRECTIVES ONLINE
**      EXECUTIVE BRANCH POWER TO POSTPONE ELECTIONS (CRS)
**      AN OPEN SOURCE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY?
**      SECRECY "PROBLEMATIZED" IN CRITICAL INQUIRY
**      THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION ON A CULTURE OF SECRECY
**      MILITARY USE OF AIRSHIPS AND AEROSTATS (CRS)
**      GLOBALIZING COOPERATIVE THREAT REDUCTION (CRS)
**      US ARMY'S MODULAR REDESIGN (CRS)
**      PUMBEDITA AND FALLUJAH


NATIONAL RECONNAISSANCE OFFICE DIRECTIVES ONLINE

To be a bureaucracy is to follow a prescribed set of procedures,
a rulebook for every contingency.

The bureaucratic procedures that govern the operation of the
National Reconnaissance Office are set forth in a series of NRO
Directives.

Several unclassified and declassified NRO Directives were
publicly released earlier this month in response to a Freedom of
Information Act request.  See (thanks to MJR):

http://www.fas.org/irp/nro/directives/index.html

The NRO is the U.S. intelligence agency that designs, builds and
operates the nation's reconnaissance satellites, or that
administers the contractors in private industry who do so.


EXECUTIVE BRANCH POWER TO POSTPONE ELECTIONS (CRS)

"Because of the continuing threat of terrorism, concerns have
been raised about the potential for terrorist events to occur
close to or during the voting process for the November 2004
elections," a recent report of the Congressional Research
Service observes.

"For instance, the question has been raised as to whether a
sufficiently calamitous event could result in the postponement
of the election, and what mechanisms are in place to deal with
such an event."

"This report focuses on who has the constitutional authority to
postpone elections, to whom such power could be delegated, and
what legal limitations exist to such a postponement.

See "Executive Branch Power to Postpone Elections,"
Congressional Research Service, July 14, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RL32471.pdf

Direct public access to CRS reports like this one is not
authorized by the U.S. Congress.


AN OPEN SOURCE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY?

In its recent report, the 9/11 Commission adverts to the
possibility of establishing a new "Open Source Agency" within
the U.S. intelligence community (see the chart on page 413).
 But the Commission does not otherwise discuss the role or
function of the proposed agency.

The barest mention of such a new agency has already prompted
some debate and conflict, beginning with a dispute over where
the hypothetical agency should be housed, inside or outside of
the CIA.

Robert Steele of the private Open Source Solutions, who has been
advocating increased appreciation of open source intelligence
for over a decade, takes the position that the new agency should
be completely independent of the existing U.S. intelligence
community. See his assessment here:

http://tinyurl.com/5pet7


SECRECY "PROBLEMATIZED" IN CRITICAL INQUIRY

Critical Inquiry, a journal published by the University of
Chicago, is perhaps the preeminent academic venue for the
pursuit of "theory," which means something like the
conceptualization and analysis of cultural, literary and other
problems.  Theory is by definition abstract and is generally one
or more steps removed from everyday life and practical politics.

So it is noteworthy that government secrecy is the subject of a
paper in the forthcoming issue of the journal.

Author Peter Galison, a distinguished historian of science at
Harvard, reviews recent classification practices and then asks
what epistemological assumptions are implicit in the act of
censoring, or classifying, particular items of information.  The
classifier, he suggests, relies on a discredited "atomic" theory
of knowledge.

"Contra the logical positivists and their allies, it is
precisely not possible to reduce meaningful language to discrete
enunciations. Communication -- at least meaningful, verifiable
communication -- cannot be rendered into a sequence of protocol
statements. But such a conception of knowledge is exactly what
lies behind the classifiers' imaginary," he writes.

"At the root of this theory of punctiform knowledge excision
stands a fundamental instability."

Dig it.

See "Removing Knowledge" by Peter Galison, Critical Inquiry 31,
Autumn 2004.  An electronic pre-print, imperfectly encoded in
html, may be found here:

http://tinyurl.com/43ute


THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION ON A CULTURE OF SECRECY

Given their principled skepticism of big government, political
conservatives ought to be in the forefront of critics of
unchecked government secrecy.  Instead, "openness" has often
been tagged as a "liberal" cause, and conservatives have mostly
been missing in action.  But that may be changing.

In a new op-ed article, Mark Tapscott of the Heritage Foundation
warns of "a bureaucratic culture of secrecy that has grown over
the decades to encompass the entire government."

The Heritage Foundation is the leading conservative think tank
and a particularly influential voice in the Republican-
controlled Congress.

"Experts across the political spectrum agree that government
keeps too much information classified for much too long," writes
Tapscott. "And too much is unnecessarily exempted from
disclosure under the FOIA."

The Heritage Foundation is right.

See "Spawning a Culture of Secrecy" by Mark Tapscott, July 28:

http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed072704b.cfm


MILITARY USE OF AIRSHIPS AND AEROSTATS (CRS)

"The Department of Defense has a history of using lighter-than-
air platforms such as airships (blimps) and aerostats (tethered
balloons)," according to a new Congressional Research Service
report.

"Aerostats have recently been fielded to protect U.S. troops in
the field. Contemporary interest is growing in using airships
for numerous missions. This report examines the various concepts
being considered and describes the issues for Congress."

See "Potential Military Use of Airships and Aerostats,"
Congressional Research Service, July 15, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RS21886.pdf

At congressional direction, CRS does not make reports like this
directly available to the general public.


GLOBALIZING COOPERATIVE THREAT REDUCTION (CRS)

"Increasingly, Congress and the Administration are looking to
utilize nonproliferation assistance programs, including
cooperative threat reduction (CTR), to help reduce the risk of
terrorist access to weapons of mass destruction," according to
another newly updated CRS report.

"This report analyzes the range of possible applications of CTR
funds and the kinds of assistance might be supplied, and
describes legal, financial, technical, and political constraints
on possible assistance."

See "Globalizing Cooperative Threat Reduction: A Survey of
Options," Congressional Research Service, July 2, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/crs/RL32359.pdf

Direct public access to CRS reports like this one is not
permitted by the current congressional leadership.


US ARMY'S MODULAR REDESIGN (CRS)

"In what the Army describes as the 'most significant Army
restructuring in the past 50 years,' the Army intends to
redesign its current 10 active duty division force to a 43 or 48
brigade-level unit of action or UA force by FY2007," another CRS
report notes.

"While the Army cites the need for a more responsive,
deployable, joint, and expeditionary force, others suggest that
the primary reason for redesign is the ever increasing long term
troop requirements to support the Global War on Terrorism
(GWOT)."

The implications of the plan are explored in "U.S. Army's
Modular Redesign: Issues for Congress," Congressional Research
Service, July 19, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32476.pdf

As a practical matter, Congress would prefer that the public did not
have access to CRS reports like this.


PUMBEDITA AND FALLUJAH

Pumbedita was the site of one of the main rabbinical academies
in ancient Babylon where the Talmud, the repository of Jewish
law and lore, was elaborated a millenium and a half ago.

Fallujah is the city in modern Iraq where some of the most
violent acts of anti-American insurgency have occurred.

Remarkably, Pumbedita was located in what is now Fallujah,
writes Hershel Shanks in the latest issue of the Jewish magazine
Moment (August 2004, www.momentmag.com).

In fact, "According to Jacob Obermeyer, a 19th century scholar,
[the word] Fallujah is the linguistic equivalent of Pumbedita."

"Aramaic Pum-Bedita is Pallughtha in Syriac and Falluga in
Arabic, or Fallujah as current newspapers spell it."

"It is interesting to think about the fact that the Talmud was
created in one of the most violent towns of modern Iraq," writes
Shanks, who also edits the Biblical Archeology Review.


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:52:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:26:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:53:18 -0300
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:07:18 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:37:51 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

><snip>

>>Well said, Brad.

>>I agree with you that this field would be improved by having a
>>set of fundamental understood ideas about the origin,
>>technology, and motives.

>>The theories touted here and elsewhere would likely require
>>several parallel groups. Provide a common, updated database of
>>UFO data to each group...photos, video, radar, eyewitness
>>testimony, trace evidence, etc. Allow each group full access,
>>and merge the subsequent findings...large and small...back into
>>the database to prevent duplication, and to provide other groups
>>with insights to further there own analyses. Of course, the
>>database would grow with new reports and data, as well.

>>UFO Group 1 - Technology... Analyze existing UFO data for
>>performance characteristics and correlate with current and
>>emerging terrestrial technologies, seeking commonalities which
>>might lead to explanations for extreme UFo behavior. Fold
>>results, good and bad, back into database.

>>UFO Group 2 - Communication... Analyze current UFO data for its
>>communication potential. Crop circles, symbols connected with
>>UFOs, sounds, light patterns, etc., will be analyzed with an eye
>>to a unified approach, assuming that if ETs are attempting
>>communication, they would likely try various forms, but
>>cryptically employed to draw out those with "eyes to see". Fold
>>results, good and bad, back into database.

>>UFO Group 3 - Physics... Analyze data for common physical
>>behavior, even when in violation of current "accepted" paradigm.
>>Allow the data to suggest alternative physics models, rather
>>than fitting the data into existing paradigm. Correlate against
>>current theories for multi-domensional reality, super-string
>>theory and the like for commonalities which may be cross-
>>supporting. Fold results back in.

>>UFO Group 4 - Metaphysics... Analyze existing data and correlate
>>with past and current sources, including Biblical sources,
>>prophesy, remote viewing, PSI-OPS, etc.

>>UFO Group 5 - Biology... Analyze data for commonalities of
>>physical form beyond the typical "gray". correlate with existing
>>theories of evolution in extreme environments here for possible
>>insights. Fold results back in.

>>Somewhere in this mix of analyses, one could expect that minor
>>breakthroughs would be achieved. UFOlogy could evolve into a
>>true science. Several good theories about UFOs would continue to
>>compete...just as other sciences have multiple plausible
>>theories awaiting the final kiss-off, or the final vindication.
>>But those that promoted purely speculative rebuttals might be
>>naturally hushed by the peer groups' single-mindedness of
>>purpose and clear objectives. In fact, results might even
>>require creation of new groups to handle "extra-disciplinary"
>>phenomena.

>>I can imagine a "think-tank" style institute...how about
>>ITISAUFO... Institute for Technical Investigation and Scientific
>>Analysis of UFOs. A "Brookings Institute" for UFO studies.

>>I fear you are right in thinking that it would fall by bickering
>>and in-fighting. It's not a money issue.

>Sounds to me like work statements for Operation Majestic 12:

>1. Evaluate wreckage seeking understanding and new knowledge
>about materials, technological capabaility of devices, etc.
>These data would be classified

>2. Collect and evaluate instrumental data on flight behavior
>including acceleration, change in em signatures as a function of
>changes in direction.etc.These data would be classified.

>3. Collect and evaluate data from physical trace cases. check on
>means for effecting soil etc. - again in secret.

>4. Theoretical evaluation putting 1, 2, 3 together.

>5. Evaluation of alien behavior in abductions and in probable
>events such as the April 1964 landing at Holloman, and in cases
>such as the Cuban MIG case and other destructions of attacking
>aircraft such as in 1952. When did they destroy.. after what
>actions on our part?

>Ought to keep a nice Black program busy for a long time.

<snip>

Stan,

"Black program"...leave it to you to play the "race" card <LOL>
(sorry, couldn't resist... born in Dallas with the initials KKK)

Since the government officially disavows any right to the name
"Majestic 12" perhaps our "white" version should be named
likewise. Another name suggested by UFO history might be Project
"Open Book".

And if it worked for Detlev, Roscoe, et.al., we should come to
similar conclusions even if we don't have access to the "best
cases"...those kept hidden behind that "black" veil.

I wonder if MJ-12 suffered from infighting and bickering...being
quite the multi-disciplinary bunch?


Best,

Kyle









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

              Detecting UFOs Through The Use Of 'Passive' Radar

From: Peter B. Davenport - National UFO Reporting Center <director.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:19:45 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:34:53 -0400
Subject: Detecting UFOs Through The Use Of 'Passive' Radar


To the List:

I have posted to the NUFORC website the paper I wrote for the
MUFON Symposium in Denver earlier this month. It pertains to the
remote detection of UFOs through the use of 'passive' radar.

In addition, I copy below some links to URLs, which discuss the
issue of passive radar:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/radar_stealth_010614.html
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_42/b3854113.htm
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/jaws/sentry.pdf
http://rrsl.ee.washington.edu/
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,16762,00.html
http://www.crows.org/Events/2003/PCR/general.htm
http://www.crows.org/Events/2003/PCR/PCR03_Agenda.pdf
http://www.ifp.uiuc.edu/~smherman/darpa/
http://www.zilker.net/~crossley/NAVSPASUR/

If my thesis is correct, the application of 'passive' radar will
allow us to resolve the issue of whether UFOs visit our planet.

I have been in touch with the University of Washington
professor, who has operated a 'passive' radar system since 1998,
and we are working toward building a system that will be
tailored to detect satellites, space debris, and other targets
within several hundred miles of Earth.

I invite your comments.


Regards,

Peter

--
Peter B. Davenport, Director
National UFO Reporting Center
P. O. Box 45623
University Station
Seattle, WA 98145
E-Mail: director.nul
Web:   www.UFOCENTER.com
Reporting Hotline: (206) 722-3000








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

               Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:57:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:36:08 -0400
Subject: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees


Hi folks,

I just recalled that I had read several references wherein it
was suggested and noted that artists were often the target of
abduction. That the only common denominator for abductees was
that the majority were artists of some sort.

If anyone has data on this please let me know.


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:05:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:38:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - King


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:49:30 EDT
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:41:50 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>>From: Alfred Webre <Exopolitics <exopolitics.nul>>
>>>To: media.nul
>>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
>>>Subject: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>>PRESS RELEASE -- UNIVERSITY RESEARCHER RELEASES REPORT ON THE
>>>MOTIVATIONS AND ACTIVITIES OF EXTRATERRESTRIAL RACES VISITING
>>>EARTH

>>>Dr Michael E. Salla, a former Assistant Professor and current
>>>Researcher-in-Residence at American University, Washington DC.,
>>>claims that as many as 57 extraterrestrial races are currently
>>>visiting the Earth. Of these races, he claims that 17 have most
>>>significance for the evolution and sovereignty of humanity. He
>>>divides these races into two groups. The first group, he claims,
>>>comprises seven races that are connected as a network through a
>>>series of secret agreements between themselves and 'shadow
>>>governments' in the <?xml:namespace prefix =3D st1 ns =3D
>>>"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />United States and
>>>elsewhere. This group, according to Dr Salla, are part of a vast
>>>military-industrial-extraterrestrial complex fully funded by
>>>'black budgets' in the US and other nations. He believes that a
>>>second grouping of ten extraterrestrial races are outside of
>>>this network of agreements and offer humanity the best chance
>>>for a positive future.

><snip>

>>Barf! What we badly need is strong medication for diarrhea of
>>the mouth. Not to mention extreme brain-warp.

>>- Dick

>Well said Dick Hall.

>Now Michael Salla go to your room! And don't come out again
>until you have come to your senses and learned your lessons from
>the Hall! ("Salle" is French for "room" or "hall.")

Please point out what is "obviously" incorrect in Mr. Salla's
thesis. Having not had the opportunity to see what Mr. Salla has
seen, I'm at a loss to divine what of his statement is patently
false.

I don't buy it, but I can't refute it either. One interesting
note is the fact that there are 57 varieties of ETs point to
a connection between ETI and that whole Heinz bunch. Teresa
doesn't sound like she's from around here.....


Kyle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:12:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:41:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - King


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:09:46 EDT
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>From: Alfred Webre <exopolitics.nul>>
>>To: media.nul
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>PRESS RELEASE - UNIVERSITY RESEARCHER RELEASES REPORT ON THE
>>MOTIVATIONS AND ACTIVITIES OF EXTRATERRESTRIAL RACES VISITING
>>EARTH

>Just when you thought it was safe to go back into UFOLogy.

>This report is just what the doctor ordered. It's got alot going
>for it and because it's 'free' and no price tag associated it's
>irresistable to read.

>One could interpret it in any number of ways.

>Bottom line is it's formatted properly from a scholar.

>It has alarming information that most of us on this list are
>familiar with. It even quotes and footnotes many of the
>UFOlogists we all know.

>The best quote is "They shall know you by your deeds.", which is
>what I've been saying all along.

>Adding to it the various points of views worldwide I'm sure the
>majority of denizens on the Earth would read it and rightfully
>say, "See? Satan's at it again, he's conned these scientists and
>the government's in bed with him."

>It's an easy, easy, interpretation.

>Yet for the scientist in all of us we'd say, " Life sure has
>taken some mighty weird turns! "

>I'ld like to see more data from non-ufological sources to round
>out the paper.

>As in depth as this paper is it still leaves us with no 'proof'
>but leads to where the 'proof' can be obtained. Since no one in
>their right mind is going to waltz up to a heavily secured
>military facility and gain access we're back to square one.

>Yet history proves that no matter how tight lipped something is,
>somehow, somewhere a loose lip will flip.

>Key to me now is how this paper will be examined. If it's
>attacked hostily then you know it hit a nerve. If it's
>professionally examined and refuted without the condescending
>nonsense then that will be fine.

>Yet if just one, just one of these claims can be proven then it
>will be 'Katie bar the door'.


Exactly Greg,

Yet another loony "scientist" telling us the earth is round,
when we all "know" the earth is flat. If we can't prove he's
wrong, we simply "shout him down".

At least the paper "sparks" some conversation...perhaps the
intent all along.


Kyle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:26:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:00:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Boone


>From: Alfred Webre <Exopolitics <exopolitics.nul>>
>To: media.nul
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races


>PRESS RELEASE -- UNIVERSITY RESEARCHER RELEASES REPORT ON THE
>MOTIVATIONS AND ACTIVITIES OF EXTRATERRESTRIAL RACES VISITING
>EARTH

Okay, so after more time to go over this paper and having kicked
it upstairs to some 'folks in the know' of credentials, I've had
quite the suprise.

It's not a matter of if the general data from this report is
wrong, what the problem is they tell me is how we handle it.

The report is full of the stuff I hate from UFO reports:

Messages from the 'aliens'.

I hate that. I've posted about it before. If there's no
messenger, then to me there's no message. Too many people have
used these 'priviledged' messages as a launching pad for some
'Flea Market Philosophy' like the Heaven's Gate group.

I think we should pass a law that any 'superior beings' must
first report to the INS to verify their status before spreading
messages of good will or dire prediction. It would help alot to
avoid more snake oil.

If this report were to be picked up by the mass media and touted
as worthy of serious consideration it would start global panic.
The Bible Thumpers would have a field day and the religious
fundamentalists worldwide would have more grist-for- the-mill to
spout their hostile and oppressive rhetoric. Not to say all
religious folks would go to that extreme but considering how
long a struggle it's been for decent religious philosophy to
take hold you can imagine the chaos we'd be facing before the
dust settled if ever.

The gun nuts and survivalists would be on every corner selling
rotten ammo and dehydrated goods. We'd be up to our ears in
'Channelers' with hourly reports from the 'space brothers'.

We regular guys wouldn't get a word in edgewise nor find out the
latest baseball scores.

The question of 'proof' of alien contact no longer intrigues me.
There's so much bs going around if you marched an alien across
the screen with Dan Rather interviewing it no one would believe
it anyway. Heck, no matter what proof you present to the public
you'll get that two-chair confrontation about it.

The battle here is not with physical proof but with the human
mind. That mysterious realm of subjective and objective held in
place by earwax.

People believe what they want to believe and what they're forced
to believe.

These witnesses in the report are real people. The problem is
the military personell around the U.S. who want to come forward
but can't because of security oaths. If what they're saying is a
lie then giving them clearance to speak shouldn't be a problem.
Yet they won't get it, why?

This UFO problem is but a hair's breadth from 'is' or 'isn't'
and that's what's most frustrating. You try to get away from it
but somehow it'll pop it's head up again. We're down to a
standoff of 'put up or shut up' from all sides. Have the open
hearings on the subject and if there's nothing  then the
government wouldn't need to fear releasing a security oath. It's
not up to our government to decide for us what's nonsense or
not, what their duty is is to address 'any' concerns we have on
'any' subject.

If people have the 'proof' they claim that can be examined by
experts then they'll have to put it on the table. If the
'aliens' have something to say then they'll have their
opportunity to say to everybody or shut the hell up and go home.

It wouldn't cost the taxpayers a fortune to address an issue
they're so fervently interested in yet aggressively denied the
address from a government that is charged with the duty to
address issues of interest no matter what.

You know why it won't happen? Because if you had an open hearing
on a station like C-Span, a live hearing, where people could
bring their best stuff, not 'stories' or 'opinions' and
nonsensical dribble, everybody and their brother would drop
commercial television to tune in to watch. That'd crash the
stats of the commercial market.

I say we act on it before another 'Crack-Pot Klaatu' shows up
and bs's the world into another epoch of chicanery.

Wait, ain't that what the Bible says is gonna happen?

Dang, can't get away from them prophets can ya? :)


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:33:46 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:13:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:52:58 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>Now this is the type of healthy exchange of ideas, albeit at times
>a little too heated, that keeps me reading and posting.

>One question.....

>Does anyone have something that could be called a good statistic
>on the percentage of the world population... and more
>specifically the US... has actually stated that they have seen a
>UFO... something they believe couldn't have been from "around
>here"?

>I find stats on those who believe that UFOs exist all over the
>place, but while that seems to be a valuable statistic to a
>sociologist, it seems equally worthless in any scientific UFO
>context.

>And I'm also very weary of the "message from the space brothers"
>testimony. While I am unable to label it false, lest I incur any
>wrath should they be right, it eludes my grasp due to the
>gargantuan grain of salt accompanying it. Alas, my prejudice
>revealed.


>Thanks to all,

>Kyle

Again well said Kyle!

We do need to rapidly coordinate and gather these statistics.

A company I did a promo campaign for actually sells software
that compiles statistical data that is easily read and
understood. I'll see if it's applicable to this sort of effort.

If everyone cooperates and it's not too much manpower within a
year we could have something we could put a fork in.

To reply again the 'space brothers' and their messages, I agree
it's not whether it's true or not. It is too often a divergence
as one set of 'space brothers' says something in direct conflict
with the other 'space brothers'. We don't have time to dig
through this as we have enough of we UFOLogists giving opinions
and conclusions without a messenger.

Let's look at the 'deeds not words'.


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                   Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:06:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:32:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - King


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:39:53 EDT
>Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:44:17 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack

<snip>

>I recall a press release from NASA/Hubble stating that based
>upon what they are seeing in the photographs (let that read a
>big and giant photointerpretation here) that their was so called
>dark matter in the universe. Keep in mind that they didn't
>actually have a physical speciman that could be taken to 13 labs
>and be independently checked and verified, but they only had a
>photograph and they came up with the conclusion based upon in
>essence photo interpretation. Yet if you show them a photo of a
>UFO, we start hearing the back peddling about how they actually
>have to have a piece of physical evidence and why photographs
>are not sufficent.....

>The point of this is not to dish science, religion, or UFOs, but
>to point out over the years there has been bogus
>information/individuals come out of those fields and the field
>of so called main stream science is no more reliable then
>religion and or UFOs.


Robert,

The discovery of "dark matter" was not the result of a
photograph. Hubble photos have been used to support the theory,
just as UFO photos have been used to support ET theory. The
question of dark matter was raised to explain the great
disparity between that matter which we are able to observe and
that which theory indicates we should be able to observe. It
didn't arise FROM the Hubble photos.

Science evolves with every discovery. It is reliable exactly
_because_ it isn't static. There is no Bible, there are no
"space brothers" with the answers, for science. Greenhouse
effect _does_ cause global warming, AND it causes ice ages.
Contradictory? Not if you read the science.

Religion is so full of contradictions, and so adamant in its
inflexibility, it's no wonder that it is anything but reliable
for answering current high-value questions.

The current state of Ufology is no different. Outlandish
theories are cast aside in favor of even more outlandish
theories, and pseudo-scientists proclaim life on Mars, or Mayan
end-of-world prophesy, or Nostradamus' musings in direct
conflict with science' fluid model of reality.

The statement that mainstream science is no more reliable than
religion or UFOs is ludicrous. Scientific research has cured
disease, resulted in man's best achievements, and even some of
his worst. The institution of religion has reliably only done
one thing... create conflict. In the case of the religion with
which I'm most familiar, the primary goal seems to be self-
promotion to the point of cultural genocide, and persecution of
those that don't believe. Religion exists to provide comfort to
those that need it, and has been more than happy to maim and
kill for its continued "reliability". (The Crusades, the
Inquisition, the Native Americans, ad infinitum...)Religion, not
science, can be credited as the root of almost every current
military conflict on earth.. that matters. To compare the
"reliability" of science to religion is patently absurd,
especially in light of the non-examples you cite.

To compare it with the current state of Ufology is beyond
comment.

Science is reliable because it questions itself at every turn,
and often rewrites the book when new data are presented.

Religion and Ufology are dogma. They both begin with what must
be. Science simply, and reliably, begins with what is.
Fortunately, it is flexible enough to realize that what "is"
today may not "be" tomorrow.


Kyle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                    Dr. Van Allen Speaks On Space Flight

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:28:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:06:39 -0400
Subject: Dr. Van Allen Speaks On Space Flight


To a story by Dr. Van Allen about his views on future space
exploration excluding the human factor.:

<http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/vanallen_spaceflight_040726.html>http://w
ww.space.com/scienceastronomy/vanallen_spaceflight_040726.html


Best,

Greg









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                        Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:11:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:21:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:27:02 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:29:28 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0400
>>>Subject: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>>>Something seems wrong with all this to me - why has there not
>>>been, in the last 50 years, any reasonable close-up photos in
>>>the public domain? Is there some kind of law of UFOs that they
>>>will never approach the ground if someone has a camera? Or, even
>>>more ridiculously, only if the camera operator is a military
>>>employee with top-secret clearance who will not divulge the
>>>photos? Of all the abductees and near-abductees, no one had a
>>>camera? Or is it that the interdimensional nature of abductions
>>>means there is no physical object to photograph, and the
>>>physical objects flying around in the skies and detectable by
>>>radar are a different phenomena - possibly related, possibly
>>>unrelated?

>>Thank you for an immensely thought-provoking posting. The
>>problem can be traced to a root cause which I call the Myth of
>>the Almighty Camera. I have alluded to this many times earlier
>>in postings to rebut numbers arguments about UFO photos, why so
>>few?

>>First, cameras are not objective instruments and photos are not
>>pure objective instrument data. Cameras distort the
>>representation of the incident light and various corrections
>>must be applied to correct for spatial distortion of the lens
>>and distortion of spectral sensitivities to light on the film.
>>Photos are not purely objective because a human being with
>>biases must interpret the photos.

>Brad,

>Your seeming definition of objectivity seems a bit off the mark,
>to me. I think of objectivity (noun) as: judgment based on
>observable phenomena and uninfluenced by emotions or personal
>prejudices
<snip>

Ray,

I like your definition better but most people do not think of
the word "objectivity" with respect to UFO photos in that
refined way. They think of UFO photos as somehow providing
"objective" proof of UFO existence without _any_ involvement of
fallible human beings. I was responding that implicit popular
misconception in my remarks. My aim was to explain why there are
so few good UFO photos and so many lousy UFO photos, due to the
inherent limitations of camera and film, the inherent distance-
size-visibility factors of aerial phenomena such as UFOs, and
the fact that in almost all (if not in fact 100% all) cases of
UFO photos there must be a fallible human element to explain how
and why and where the UFO photos were taken, and fallible human
interpretation is required to demonstrate they are UFOs not
IFO's and not hoaxes. UFO photos do not "speak for themselves"
in the many thousands of possible UFO photos in existence - the
closest to an exception may be the recent Mexican FLIR video and
your Project Starlight instrumentation cases, but the vast
thousands of "UFO" photos do not have date-time stamps with
azimuth-elevation-GPS coordinates. Even if they did, they could
still be faked, so we would still need fallible human testimony
to verify that yes indeed the Mexican AF C-26A was on a routine
mission on such and such date and secured this FLIR footage when
such and such suspicious target was detected on radar, etc.
etc., or Ray Stanford was flying such and such a flight when the
boy spotted a black object out the window, etc. etc.

Moreover there are many many more cases of multiple human
witness triangulations than there are multiple-camera
triangulations of UFOs (if indeed there are any). And humans can
and have moved around to establish a quasi-stereoscopic effect
or perspective effect to determine distance to the UFO. Cameras
cannot determine distances to UFOs, only stereo cameras can do
that and none of the thousands upon thousands of cases we are
discussing in general involve stereo cameras - in a few extreme
exceptions with tremendous amounts of fallible human
interpretation a rough distance estimate can be obtained from
ordinary photos, e.g., McMinnville. But even in that case I
believe the outstanding photometric distance analyses are all
wrong and the brightening of the bottom of the UFO was not due
to atmospheric scattering from distance but to simple sunlight -
 the Condon Committee, Shaeffer-Klass, Maccabee, et al., all
failed to establish the correct position of the sun with respect
to the UFO, which shows it was shining at a grazing angle on the
flat bottom, so the flat bottom was not a shadowed surface and
thus a distance scale using shadowed surfaces at known distances
in the photos is invalid. Since I am so easily misunderstood no
matter how carefully I phrase my sentences, please note that I
didn't say that no one established the position of the sun at
all or the position of the UFO at all, I said the position of
the sun _with_respect_to_ the UFO and doing it "correctly"
(Sheaffer's theory of a morning time is now conclusively
refuted, so his sun position is "incorrect").

Humans can often be wrong about distances, but that is usually
the fault of the UFO investigators who have the responsibility
to determine when a distance cue is an impossibility or not. If
humans are wrong about distances to the UFO say 75% of the time
but are right 25% of the time, in say 1,000 to 5,000 good
Unexplained UFO cases, that's still better than say the 0.01% of
the UFO photos that have any distance data at all, out of maybe
100,000 mostly garbage mostly IFO photos. Remember we're just
trying to explain why so few good closeup UFO photos and so many
lousy ones. In another posting I explained the numbers, showing
how few witnesses and how few photos one can expect from any
real aerial phenomenon, and UFOs are just like real physical
phenomena, such as meteor fireballs, in terms of low numbers of
good photos.

Unfortunately I do not have time to delve into the rest of your
remarks but wish I could. One reason I cannot is because I would
have to overload each sentence with qualifiers - like I have
started to do above and I just don't have time. If I don't
overload sentences with long runons packed with qualifiers and
explanations of exceptions then if I give the qualifiers and
exceptions further down in normal sentences they tend to get
separated and lost, and I can be misunderstood. (Geez, even
looking back at my McMinnville comments I see now I have to add
still another qualifier just to make a gd point: Even if the sun
is not exactly at grazing angle to the bottom of the UFO, it's
within like just 1 degree, the surrounding bright sunset sky
would still light up the bottom surface so it cannot be treated
as if darkly shadowed, and thus shadows of other surfaces at
known distances cannot be used as a distance scale. I'm just
trying to show how impossible it is to get reliable distance
data off of ordinary photos even in the one outstanding seeming
exception, the McMinnville case.)


Regards,

Brad







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:25:38 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:25:44 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings


HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings



South Oxford, UK

Date: September 1968

I was walking approx 100 yards to off license. I saw a bright
'star' moving slowly to the left, stop, move left, stop, after
purchasing cigarettes, the light was still there. When I arrived
home I called out my wife and we both witnessed it coming
towards us to within outskirts of Oxford City, it stopped for a
minute and then it returned to original area. I have to say that
I later worked out it's position as close as possible to Raf
Benson (operational) but we can both verify only one constant
light and no audibles.

Thank you to the witness for this report.

---------------------------------------

Cold Lake, Alberta Lights And Beam Of Light

Date: 1979-1982
Time: 5:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 4
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Line of colored lights/ spotlight on us.

Full Description of event/sighting: My sister, to male cousins,
and I were walking to my aunties because we wanted to go trick
or treating with them after school, we were on the wagon trail
(bush trail) and my late cousins (name removed) and (name
removed) were looking back and (name removed) yelled hold hands
and runmy sis and I looked back and saw a line of lights
(colored) hovering above the tree's and a beam of light shinning
down at us what ever it was made absolutely no noise so we all
held hands and started running we stumbled in to my aunties
around midnight my parents were there so was my other cousins
who all got back from trick or treating , my parents gave me and
my sis a pretty good likin because they said we were just lying
about where we were and they accused us of riding our horses all
that time.

I saw that true story fire in the sky and I started wondering
about that night where did all that time go, so I never said a
word to my sister. I just gave her that movie to watch and
that's when we started asking each other what we remember, we
both want to get hypnotized to see what really happened. I use
to have dreams of being in a ship and midgets that's all for now
but that was not the only time the last time for me was in 97
next time I will share that story if you need more information
my sister will also share what she remembers till then take
care.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------------------------

Bushey South/East Of Watford, UK

Date: 1975/76

A light had been reported in local paper near Hertfordshire, the
following night I was taking the dog for walk when I saw what I
presumed to be the same light, reddish glow moving beyond the
town of Watford and in the same area of the previous sighting.
It was about the same description which was given and it took
some 10 minutes to go out of sight. Although I fetched my 10x40
glasses, I could only see the reddish constant glow and it's
constant speed. It wasn't that high and I saw a light aircraft
seemingly fly in front of it, not unusual. There was a light
aircraft airfield close by. The only comment I can make is that
someone else saw it!! It was definitely not a balloon.

Thank you to the witness for this report.

---------------------------------------

Edmonton, Alberta Cigar shaped Craft Hovering Over Homes

Date: Winter of 1985
Time: Earlier to 9:00 p.m.

The man called me today and filed a report of an object he
witnessed many years back. He said his experience took place
when he was eight or nine years old and at the families home
back in the winter of 1984 . They lived at the south west corner
of the city right on the fringe, which looked out over the
fields which were also in that area. From where they were
located the fields stretched all the way down to the airport
which was a good distance away. He was doing his homework, and
he believes it was either a Friday or Saturday evening. Since
his folks were going out that night and being a young boy he
really wasn't into doing his homework. He was gazing out the
large bay window when he saw in the distance over the fields a
light that would rise up from the ground into the air at
approximately an altitude of a few hundred meters, then drop
back down to the ground. This witness continued to watch this
play out doing the same thing over and over for about 30 minutes
or so.

Later that night when the babysitter was at the home and the
young fellow was in bed sleeping, he awoke as he had to use the
washroom which was across the hallway. Once he left the hallway
heading back towards his bedroom, he again noticed something
unusual out one of the large windows. At approximately 9:00 p.m.
on this winter night, the sky being dark with the odd cloud
which was visible and gray in color. He noticed what appeared to
be a large cigar shaped craft hovering over his home and the
neighbors. It was apparent the object was rather large in size.
It was the faint outline which was really visible and there were
a number of purple lights on it. These lights were not flashing,
just giving off a steady purple colored light. For a minute
there he thought he might have been dreaming, so he went down
stairs to tell the babysitter, but she did not believe him and
told the young boy to get back to bed. When he arrived back up
stairs the object had disappeared. The witness mentioned that
this experience has stuck with him over all these years and he
certainly will not be forgetting it.

He did tell his parents but didn't exactly believe him and
thought he was just trying to get out of doing his homework that
evening.

Thank you to the witness for this interesting report and for
calling.

HBCC UFO Note: I wonder if the light which was rising up and
dropping back down had something to do with the sighting of the
cigar shaped craft over his home. if anyone else who may read
this story has seen something like this over Edmonton back in
1984, would you be kind enough to write to me and fill me in on
what you saw.

----------------------------------

North Hemel Hempstead, UK

Date: June 1999

I stood outside smoking, close to some hedging and looking up
when I saw a number of bright flashes, like a strobe light. It
was over a distance of 2 feet at arms length and they went from
intense and then fading to nothing in a second or two. The sky
was clear and it was so obviously not an aircraft, but possibly
space debris burning up etc. I called my son and we saw nothing
else, but some 15 minutes later I went back out and I was
observing what was probably an aircraft going behind our house.
As it emerged from the other side I was aware of a flashing from
above me to below the level of sight (all in a second or two) I
have no doubt it was the same quick flashing object I had just
seen and I have absolutely no idea what it was. What I can say
is ,I've witnessed many meteorites, shooting stars, satellites
in over 30 years and I'm 100% sure this was neither.

Additional Information:

We live in North Hemel Hempstead and Luton airport is some 10
miles north/east of us. Can I just explain, we have a lot of
aircraft directly over head, some extremely low. We also have a
good view of London's Heathrow 'stacking' South of Hemel
Hempstead. At night time I've counted up to 8 in the 'stacking'
area at any one time, believe me. What with being reared in a
village south/east of Oxford where we had unique grandstand
views of RAF and USAF aircraft. We were 2 miles from RAF base
and overlooked 2 USAF bases and seeing amongst others B4, B52,
and for a while the B36.!! We DEFINITELY know all the angles on
aircraft, day and night. Hope I've been helpful. Before I close
I'll mention that we have both observed a satellite flashing red
every few seconds, (we've seen many satellites over the years)
and also an object crossing the sky which fluctuated from an
increasingly brightness and then decreasing to nothing and
starting the process again farther down the sky. I've always
thought it was space debris slowly spinning and reflecting, but
who knows??

Thank you to the witness for this report.

---------------------------------------

Chandigarh, India V Shaped Craft

Date: One and half years back.
Time: Midnight

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: V shaped and shines like aluminum.

Full Description of event/sighting: My self and my relative were
sleeping on the terrace when I saw a V shaped object moving from
the easterly direction to the west. The sky was clear and the
object was moving at a very high speed. I showed this to my
relative and suddenly the object turned left and was lost.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------------------------

Motherwell Scotland Angel Hair ?

HBCC UFO Note: I found the picture to be very interesting.
Although no object was witnessed by the person who took the
photos, one can't rule out anything here. Some checking into the
date and area might reveal a sighting for that time of the year.

Date: September 2002

Hi Brian,

Listened to your interview with Jeff Rense for Friday July 23,
and heard you mention you were interested in other phenomena
etc. Great show by the way.

I suppose you have heard of Angel hair in relation to the UFO
phenomena? Well I have some pictures that were taken about 4
years ago of some trees near my home. They were covered in what
looked like and what I have heard described, Angel hair. I
personally touched the stuff and it did seem to just melt away.
Let me say that in no way did it resemble a spiders web. Some
portions were like glass to look at, as it clung to the
trees.When it was touched, it became almost like very fine
thread. The pictures were taken at night with a digital camera
and flash. The flash seems to show up the stuff very well, as it
was very reflective.

The first time I noticed it was when I was walking the dog and
the Moon was shining. The Moon showed up the material very well.
Remember these trees were covered in the stuff. Around four
trees in a row. There are many other trees along the path, but
they were not affected. The material was not in any way sticky.
I have never seen this sort of thing before and was very
surprised. I have observed the trees around for a long time now
and it has never reoccurred. Unfortunately I never observed any
unusual object in the vicinity. I don't know if anyone else did.

If the pictures are any use to you I will send them. Have to
look them out from my collection of disks.

It may be rather different from your usual sightings, so please
let me know if you want them.

Regards,


Additional Information:

Hi Brian,

I have attached the pictures for you.

Notice how some of the material seems to shine on the branches.
Hope you can zoom in enough and keep some quality. I tried to
keep the picture sizes down to around 200k.

I found the pictures folder and it is marked for the year 2002.
I remember that it was a very warm Summer over here in Scotland
that year, and lasted well into September and October. I believe
I took the pictures in late September 2002.

I live in the town of Motherwell Scotland and this is where I
took the pictures.

All the best,

Thank you very much to the witness for sharing the pictures and
the report.

Pictures can be viewed at:=
 http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1641

----------------------------------------------------

Phoenix, Arizona V Shaped Object Caught On Film

July 11, 2004
Time: 4:33 a.m.

These pictures are from the night before I took the other "V"
shaped object. Again the camera is on a tripod and it seems to
me like the object is rotating. I usually have the video camera
with me but since I was in the middle of something earlier that
night(using the camera to capture other shots) I didn't want to
risk losing this object because I would have to fast forward the
tape in the video camera and I didn't think I would have the
time, which I wouldn't have. It was July 11th at 4:33a.m. is
when these pictures were taken. I was up because I needed to use
the restroom and because of all the things I have recorded I
always check out the skies even if I am dead tired. It pays off
once in a while. This object was to the South of me and I saw it
immediately because it was exceptionally bright and it was a
yellowish-reddish color and seemed to be flashing and rotating
when viewed through the binoculars. Very exciting. Your the
greatest and I mean it and so do the other guys in Az. We are
the three kings of UFOs in Az., for now anyway.

Thank you to the witness for these pictures and the report.

Photos =A92004RichG.

Pictures can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1642

-----------------------------------------

Phoenix, Arizona "V' Shaped Object Seen Again

Date: July 13, 1004
Time: Approx: 2:00 a.m.

These 2 lights surprised me in more than the obvious way. I went
out in the backyard like I usually do if I happen to wake up for
a bathroom break. I saw Venus rising and I was scanning the sky
for other objects and saw nothing. My dog was in the house
barking uncontrollably probably because I was outside and he was
inside so I let him out. But when I came back outside I saw a
bright light by Venus. It was huge. I ran inside to get my video
camera and when I came back out I was surprised to see it was
still there so I started video taping. As luck would have it the
warning light for the battery came on and I realized I only had
a few minutes MAX to get this orb taped. I left the camera on
when I went to bed at 2 a.m.. I had been working on my computer
capturing video clips from other sightings till I went to bed.

Now the interesting thing is I panned back towards the end of
the video clip and didn't realize there was an even brighter "V"
shaped object above my head. I just realized this tonight 2
weeks later and that is why I am sending you this. It is orange
in color and is the brightest thing I've ever seen.
Unfortunately the battery died only moments into the taping and
all I have is 40 seconds. I will send you the clip and the
captured frame.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------------------------

Portland, Oregon V Formation Of Lights

Date: July 19 or 20th, 2004
Time: 3:45 a.m.

Full Description of event/sighting: I was burning small limbs
off my magnolia tree when I saw a V formation traveling from
south to north. There were about 9 objects in the formation.
They sailed through the sky with no sound. The objects were like
behind a sheer cloud with aura's around them...they traveled
slowly so I could observe them...anybody else see them???

Additional Information:

The lights I saw were all orange. The color reminded me of a
creamsicle. There seemed to be a slight fog around the discs
which made the orange a lightish color with a white aura around
them. The night was clear with some far off clouds, no where
near the lights. When I first caught glimpse of them I was going
to go into my house. I caught the light and thought to myself
that it was a search light. Then it hit me that it was 3:45 a.m.
I had been out there for hours and there was no light in the
sky. I stepped back and saw about 9 round discs glowing through
a mist of fog. They were in the formation of a V. I sat down and
watched as they sailed through the sky slowly. I was in awe.
They sailed over my house from the south to the north taking up
a good part of the sky, as they did not seem real far away.
Since there was a mist around them I could not make out anything
in detail. I could see the discs glowing through the mist.

It was beautiful. since I was in awe of the lights I did not
think to count them. I just wanted to watch them. I sit in my
back yard and watch the skies as often as I can and look for
anything. I wanted to call the Airforce to see if there were any
sightings besides myself but got hold of the airport instead. So
I just let it go. But it has been on my mind alot. There was no
noise what so ever. The lights did not flash and the discs
stayed in formation of the "V". I do not live too far from the
airbase or the airport, but still not close. Maybe 10 miles.
There were no aircraft in the area. I stayed out for about 10
minutes after I saw them. I just wanted to know if anyone else
saw them. I thought this was a site in Portland, or when I wrote
to you.

Thank you to the witness for the great report.

---------------------------------------------

Clearwater, Nebraska

Date: July 25, 2004
Time: 3:00-5:30 a.m.

Number of witnesses: 4
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Round

Full Description of event/sighting: Saw bright light that was
red and turned to color of star and looked like a round star but
with 3 light sources moved up and down slowly and to left and
right was a ways a way but it defiantly wasn't a tower light it
was moving to weird to be a satilite.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------------------------

South Alabama,USA Egg Shaped Object Caught On Film

Brian,

Date: July 26, 2004
Time: 5:20 a.m.

Yesterday morning (7-26-04) I awoke shortly after 5:00 a.m. to
get ready for work. Usually I wouldn't go outside this early but
I had to get my uniforms out of the car . Upon getting out of
bed I stumbled to the door (still half asleep you know) and made
my way onto the deck. Even with the thick sleep in my eyes I
noticed the ball of light in the sky to my NE and I thought "
that's odd" as I walked to the car. After getting my uniforms
out of the car I made way back to the deck still watching the
odd hovering light in the sky . I also noticed something
else....there was not a single star visible in the sky
.....cloudy. I started to blow it off but I knew I would never
forgive myself so after returning inside I grabbed my camera and
tripod , stepped back out on the deck and took three shots of
the object , and went back inside to get ready for work. The
object was gone at 6:30 when I left for work. This morning I
downloaded the pictures and wanted to share them with you .The
full size pictures are 2048 x 1536 but for the sake of this
message I included the first at 25% actual size.

Thank you to the witness for the report and pictures.

Pictures can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1643

--------------------------------

Picayune, Mississippi Oblong, Or Tubular, And Shining Silvery

Date: July 27, 2004
Time: 7:55 p.m.

Tonight,at approximately 7:55 p.m, here, in Picayune,
Mississippi, as I was exiting a store in a strip shopping
center, I noticed the moon directly in front of me. It was
sunset, and the sky was still light, and the light of the
setting sun to the right/west was dimming.Since I was walking
directly toward the moon, which was to my estimation, visible in
the south, I was looking straight at it, and immediately, two
objects caught my attention. One was larger, oblong, or tubular,
and shining silvery, moving high up, in an even line smoothly
and swiftly going in a southwest direction. The other which
seemed similarly shaped, was a little higher or appeared
smaller, was criss-crossing going in the opposite direction. As
I was looking up, two more women came out to their car, in the
parking lot, and one lady said, "Do you see that?"

I waited to see if her opinion was the same as mine before
saying that it did not appear to be an airplane since there was
no contrail following it. She did not see the second object at
first until I pointed it out. She then said: "It's a UFO." I
agreed. As we watched the larger one going SW, it glowed a
bright silvery color as it neared the sunset reflection. Shortly
afterwards, it disappeared. The three of us saw and came to the
same conclusion that it was not airplanes. The larger of the two
had to be pretty large since it was visible for at least 7
minutes, and we had no trouble seeing it as it moved from us.
When the sunset reflected off of it, it pretty much assured us,
that that would not happen on an airplane at that height. Maybe
it wasn't the sunset reflection, but it appeared to reflect the
sunset, while the rest of the sky was blue/grey and the western
sky was colored. The time on my receipt from the store was
19:45, and I stayed in the store for a couple of minutes. My
watch may have been just about 5 minutes fast, so My estimation
is that it was approx:. 7:55 p.m., Tuesday, July 27,2004.New
Orleans is more or less SW of where it appeared headed (the
larger one).

This was my first sighting of this type of object.The lady said
it was her's too. Really strange..... Take care

Thank you to the witness for this report.

---------------------------------------

South West Edmonton, Alberta 8 Object In The Sky

Date: July 28, 2004
Time: 0130-0330

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 10
Shape of objects: disc like.

Full Description of event/sighting: I am a security guard and I
was on my shift. At about 0130 I was walking outside the
building I was guarding and saw an odd object in the west sky. I
continued to observe. It had violent flashing red and yellow
lights and was disc shaped. It was hovering in the same spot for
about 10 minutes. Then it would start to move violently left to
right up and down and diagonally like it was shaking. his
continued on for about another 30 minutes. I went back inside
and completed some work then went back out for another look. Now
I saw 8 in total stretched across the sky doing the exact same
thing. I started to get a bit curious and I went to the front of
the building for a look. I saw 2 more but these ones were alot
closer and lower than the other ones. One started to get really
close and was about 5 to 10 km away and roughly 100 ft in air.
It moving west and getting lower and lower. It went behind a
small hill and it looked like it could of landed. At this point
I was a bit nervous and notified the police. By the time they
arrived the sky was getting light and you couldn't see much so I
looked like a nutcase.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter At: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:53:06 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:42:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:52:58 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>One question.....

>Does anyone have something that could be called a good statistic
>on the percentage of the world population... and more
>specifically the US... has actually stated that they have seen a
>UFO... something they believe couldn't have been from "around
>here"?

>I find stats on those who believe that UFOs exist all over the
>place, but while that seems to be a valuable statistic to a
>sociologist, it seems equally worthless in any scientific UFO
>context.

Good question. Most "UFO" sighters do _not_ I repeat do _not_
report what they call a "UFO" or "flying saucer" or
"spacecraft." If you check the NUFORC archives or the Blue Book
files, you'll see that roughly 95% of the witnesses report very
objectively that they saw an "object" or "light" or some other
neutral descriptors, rather than use loaded labels like "UFO" or
"spacecraft" or "aliens not from around here." It is almost
always the reporting agencies including, police, news media,
military, and UFO investigators who slap the "UFO" type labels
on the reports, or who try to put the words in the witnesses'
mouths.

Also, the witnesses' "belief" about whether they saw something
from "around here" or not, is usually next to worthless. What is
important is the sighting details and whether a scientific-
technical investigation can explain them or not (the Hynek
Screening process that must be used before declaring it a "UFO"
in the first place). The witness should not have to be the Ph.D.
scientist for his or her own case!

Witnesses usually do not have nautical almanacs or astronomy
software or flight schedules or balloon launch data, and why
should they have to? It's not their job to investigate such
things. So if they get the sighting interpretations wrong it is
irrelevant, and not to be compiled as a statistic by slander-
collecting debunkers (who love to say "X% of UFO witnesses can't
tell Arcturus from an aircraft"). It is the job of the Ph.D.
scientist type, or the scientifically competent UFO
investigator, to sift through a sighting, interview the
witnesses, and sort out the usually accurate "observations" from
the witnesses' usually erroneous "interpretations."

As I have posted here long ago, the Condon Committee collected
but deliberately and willfully refused to statistically analyze
the data on the IFO sightings which provided a control study and
calibration on the accuracy of human eyewitnesses of UFO's. I
was the first to ever analyze this IFO/UFO control sample from
the Condon Report. See:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/apr/m11-030.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/apr/m13-017.shtml

The Condon Committee IFO data showed that witnesses were about
97-98% accurate in their observations, but much less accurate in
their interpretations of what they saw, exactly like we might
expect. Condon himself was so frustrated by the project's
failure to prove that humans were lousy eyewitness observers -
they were so sure that they were going to prove humans were
worthless as observers that they had several special studies
conducted and chapters allocated for them in the Final Report -
that he felt he had to resort to outright fabricating absurdly
"false" human testimony about "seeing spacecraft aliens" (or
whatver his exact phrasing) that the witness never uttered (in a
case where the witnesses quite accurately described the semi-
transparent hot-air balloons and never even called them
"UFO's"), just so he could this case as his Exhibit A proof
against the UFO and human eyewitness testimony.

The Condon Committee contracted for an opinion survey of adults
in the US to pin down some stats on beliefs and possible
observations, and reluctance to report. It's not really useful
to answer your question because I believe pollsters have to ask
people very specifically "Have you ever seen something in the
sky on a _specific_ date, time and location that you reported to
someone because you could not explain what you saw, or you
wanted to report but did not do so for whatever reason?"

If they simply ask the generic question "Have you ever seen
something in the sky you could not explain?" then many people
will just arbitrarily say yes they must have at some time or
other. And what is the value of that?? Absolutely nothing. It
does not even register accurately that they saw _anything_, or
saw anything unexplainable to them (they may be confusing
something they saw in a movie or on tv or heard a friend or
family member tell them, as such non-experiential reports can
become "memories" that are confused with experiential memories).

So polling data gets bogged down in a quagmire of uncertainty
and confusion and cannot be relied upon for estimating UFO
sightings in the total population -- to say nothing of being
unable to distinguish IFO's from UFO's in a Gallup Poll!

It is my impression that we actually have a substantial fraction
of all Unexplained U.S. UFO cases for the 1947 to 1970 period
when there was a fairly well known centralized UFO reporting and
collection center in the US Government, and that we possibly may
even have a majority of them for 1947-1970. I estimate that this
is roughly on the order of (please look up the meaning of the
term "on the order of magnitude of" you readers before jumping
on my case) about 5,000 cases approximately, based largely on
the USAF files (notice how I have larded this sentence with
qualifiers to keep from being misquoted by someone somewhere).
Many of these cases are from foreign non-US areas. Well
investigated Unexplained UFO cases by civilian groups number
perhaps in the hundreds at best, and do not affect this order-
of-magnitude estimate. The question is how many good Unexplained
cases are we missing that are in government and other files or
were never reported at all to anyone?

One indicator is that the Condon Committee contractor survey
found that only 13% of those polled would report their sighting
to anyone. This might mean we have to apply a magnification
factor of about 8x to the number of reports we have, to estimate
the total number when including those that were not reported.
However this polling statistic is heavily influenced by the
exact wording of the question, and issues such as strangeness
level. I think that up to a point the more "strange" the
sighting the _more_ likely it will be reported, because the
strangeness impels the observer to report but only up to a
certain point where this effect reverses and the UFO event is so
strange that it won't be reported because of the strangeness
factor itself (e.g., probably most CE III entity cases are not
reported). We might actually have, therefore, most of the
landing and simple CE I cases and Daylight Discs, but not most
lights in the sky and entity cases at opposite ends of the
strangeness spectrum. The lights in the sky being too trivial to
report and the entities too shocking and discrediting to report.
It would be nice to have quantitative data to back up these
impressions but I know of no studies realistically attempting
it.


Regards,


Brad







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:23:58 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:52:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:53:18 -0300
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:07:18 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>Sounds to me like work statements for Operation Majestic 12:

>1. Evaluate wreckage seeking understanding and new knowledge
>about materials, technological capabaility of devices, etc.
>These data would be classified

>2. Collect and evaluate instrumental data on flight behavior
>including acceleration, change in em signatures as a function of
>changes in direction.etc.These data would be classified.

>3. Collect and evaluate data from physical trace cases. check on
>means for effecting soil etc. - again in secret.

>4. Theoretical evaluation putting 1, 2, 3 together.

>5. Evaluation of alien behavior in abductions and in probable
>events such as the April 1964 landing at Holloman, and in cases
>such as the Cuban MIG case and other destructions of attacking
>aircraft such as in 1952. When did they destroy.. after what
>actions on our part?

>Ought to keep a nice Black program busy for a long time.


>Stan

>Do note my latest MJ-12 paper at:

>http://www.stanfriedman.com

Basically, this post is what I had been looking for and tried
posting some while back that Ufology should have it's own
version of "MJ 12". I've never doubted the existence of the MJ
12 documents because it named several people I knew growing up.

So we need our own version of "MJ 12" made up by real scientists
in the UFO field who can set a standard of ethics and guidelines
for us guys in the trenches to collect, process and kick
upstairs data for the professionals to review and present the
way real science is done.

If we all would do that it would unclog and streamline
information and avoid the circus atmosphere. I think it would be
a great way for the younger UFOLogists ( as well as some more
seasoned) to learn 'how' data is gathered, presented and
processed.

So let's leave it to the science people to pick a panel of
scientists in various fields from astronomy, to physics, to
biology etc. and work out a hiearchy. The time consumption would
be on the field researcher to do the kind of job that is
professional enough to warrant a professional's time and energy.
And if that professional lowers the boom on bad spelling,
grammar, format then that's a lump we'd have to take and do a
better job.

Basically, I think it would be best if we grunts do the grunt
work so that we can turn UFOlogy into the science it should be
to gain the respect such an uphill study deserves.


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

             Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:33:42 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:55:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Sparks


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:09:46 EDT
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>From: Alfred Webre <Exopolitics <exopolitics.nul>>
>>To: media.nul
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races


>>PRESS RELEASE - UNIVERSITY RESEARCHER RELEASES REPORT ON THE
>>MOTIVATIONS AND ACTIVITIES OF EXTRATERRESTRIAL RACES VISITING
>>EARTH

>Just when you thought it was safe to go back into UFOLogy.

>This report is just what the doctor ordered. It's got alot going
>for it and because it's 'free' and no price tag associated it's
>irresistable to read.

>One could interpret it in any number of ways.

>Bottom line is it's formatted properly from a scholar.

>It has alarming information that most of us on this list are
>familiar with. It even quotes and footnotes many of the
>UFOlogists we all know.

>The best quote is "They shall know you by your deeds.", which is
>what I've been saying all along.

>Adding to it the various points of views worldwide I'm sure the
>majority of denizens on the Earth would read it and rightfully
>say, "See? Satan's at it again, he's conned these scientists and
>the government's in bed with him."

>It's an easy, easy, interpretation.

>Yet for the scientist in all of us we'd say, " Life sure has
>taken some mighty weird turns! "

>I'ld like to see more data from non-ufological sources to round
>out the paper.

>As in depth as this paper is it still leaves us with no 'proof'
>but leads to where the 'proof' can be obtained. Since no one in
>their right mind is going to waltz up to a heavily secured
>military facility and gain access we're back to square one.

>Yet history proves that no matter how tight lipped something is,
>somehow, somewhere a loose lip will flip.

>Key to me now is how this paper will be examined. If it's
>attacked hostily then you know it hit a nerve. If it's
>professionally examined and refuted without the condescending
>nonsense then that will be fine.

>Yet if just one, just one of these claims can be proven then it
>will be 'Katie bar the door'.


Greg,

Suppose you were the government and you wanted to stop UFO
researchers from getting at your UFO secrets, whatever they
were. What would you do? Seriously, you can't stop them by
killing them all, not even the most rabid conspiracy theorist
thinks that. So what would you do? Would you issue "orders" to
UFO researchers saying "This is the U.S. Government: You are
hereby ordered to cease and desist all efforts to seek our UFO
secrets"??? That very action of issuing provocative orders
publicly would reveal the very thing you were trying to conceal
-- the existence of UFO secrets covered up by the US Government.

So what would you do?

Have you ever heard of the concept of the "agent provocateur"?
If you research the history and the definitions (the
dictionaries are often much narrower than the actual history of
use of such agents) the "agent provocateur" is:

Agent Provocateur:

"Someone who intentionally encourages people working against a
government to do something incriminating or discrediting."

Any ideas how that could apply within the UFO community?

Would an "agent provocateur" usually have good credentials, or
would he be an obvious lunatic with little or no credentials or
no respectable background?


Regards,

Brad







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:58:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:57:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Maccabee


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:35:08 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0400
>>Subject: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>>A more interesting catagory may be called "mid-range photos",
>>which are airborn objects at some distance, but still showing
>>structure, as opposed to the mass of ufo photos/videos, which
>>are at great distace and show featureless lights, blobs, etc.

>To my knowledge, there is not a single case where two or more
>unrelated people captured either close-up or mid-range photos of
>the same UFO on approximately the same time and day but from
>different locations. Even at public gatherings such as airshows
>and sporting events where nearly everyone has a camera, there is
>not a single case of a close-up or mid-range photos of the same
>UFO. This fact is amazing in itself considering nearly everyone
>has seen a UFO! Featureless distant lights or blobs, such as the
>multiple UFOs in the sky over Mexico that behaved like a flock
>of seagulls, captured by many on video are more common but
>easily explained as IFOs.

In Gulf Breeze (gulp!) from Nov 1990 through July 1992 there
were about 170 sightings of "bubba" recorded by numerous
witnesses. In many of these sightings there were multiple
cameras and videocameras, sometimes from widely separated (miles
apart) locations, which allowed for triangulation. The most
interesting recorded phenomena were rings of light or structured
light images, not just dots. During the evening of Sept 16,
1991, I was a witness to a ring of lights that appeared in the
sky for about 70 seconds. I didn't call the guys in white coats
to come and take me away (ho ho...ha ha) because there were
about 30 other people and the ring was photographed (telephoto
lens) and videotaped (zoomed in and out) and the comments by
witnesses were recorded during the sighting (including my own).
A crude triangulation suggested a distance of several thousand
feet to a mile or so, implying some size (many feet to tens of
feet) of the ring. This is all described at:

http://brumac.8k.com

Scroll down to "Red Bubba comes to Gulf Breeze". This is not as
good as a daytime close up photo of a craft in full detail, but
certainly something was there that was unusual.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                 Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:59:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:00:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Maccabee


>From: Donald Ratsch <sts48.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:58:58 -0400
>Subject: Bible Predicts Alien Attack


>Bible Predicts Alien Attack

<snip>

>Could the 1991 NASA STS-48 Starwars footage be a precursor to
>Daniel 8:9,10?

>Some UFO enthusiasts interpret the STS-48 footage (that was
>shown on "Sightings", "Hardcopy", "Encounters", "The Larry King
>Show", etc) as several alien spacecraft being fired on by U.S.
>Starwars technology (probably Brilliant Pebbles) but missed.

"Brilliant Pebbles" was a concept - not an actual operational
system - for defense against ballistic missiles. The "pebbles"
were intended to be small rocket powered homing devices that
would to smash into a missile. "Not operational" means that
there is no "pebbles" system in space.

Other "enthusiasts" have claimed that the STS-48 "streaks light"
that move rapidly in the direction of one of the objects (that
changed direction and seemed to head away from the earth) were
particle beams from particle beam weapons. This suggestion makes
no sense when one considers that the particles in particle beams
(a) cannot be seen in space (no atmosphere to glow) and (b)
travel at the speed of light (nearly) and would go so fast they
couldn't be recorded in several frames of a video (they
particules would go through the field of view in less than one
frame time).

>Strangely, in 1991 the Alpha High Energy Laser (HEL) death-ray
>demonstrated megawatt class power levels in a low pressure, space
>operation environment:

>http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/sbl.htm

>the same year as the STS-48 incident, 1991.

Interesting coincidence... but so what? The "Alpha" laser
operated in a low pressure (much higher than space) chamber that
required a supporting installation larger than a football field.
Also, the beam was completely contained inside the buildings
that housed the laser. The FAS site listed above has a lot of
pretty pictures... but that's all they are.

The space based laser program has been largely shelved for the
last 5 years. There is no laser weapon (high power laser) in
space.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:54:29 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:04:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:10:56 -0500
>Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:02:31 -0400
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:45:19 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:28:08 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:51:32 EDT
>>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>Brad,

>>>>So far only SETI theorists have ever tried to develop consistent
>>>>models or scenarios for alien behavior.

>The SETI literature I've seen - no small amount of it, after a
>concentrated effort to read as much of it as I could stand -
>doesn't much impress me. The major impression I have of it is
>that it is wildly speculative (in a way no ufologist could ever
>get away with without being, in your phrase, shouted down) and
>based, unlike ufologists' speculation, on no evidence whatever.
>A SETI scientist on NPR once recommended science fiction and
>said it was a big influence on his own ETI speculations. Somehow
>I wasn't surprised.

>>>>But
>>>>ufologists refuse to engage in the theoretical studies, they
>>>>radically cling to extreme empiricism and denounce anyone who
>>>>tries to do theoretics.

>Let's have some names and citations here. I literally don't know
>what or whom you're talking about, and I know the UFO/ETI
>literature better than most.

>>You have really resorted to uncalled-for name-calling to accuse
>>me of "CSICOP-style polemics" (below) just because I put
>>together a thoughtful and actually quite incontestable critique
>>of the utter failure of ufology to develop a theoretical basis
>>for modeling and testing the ETH. Indeed I would have thought
>>that the facts were not even a matter of any real controversy or
>>dispute.

>I'm glad your work is "thoughtful and actually quite
>incontestable," but I deny that I engaged in name-calling for
>the simple reason that I didn't.

<snip>

Jerry,

Strangely this is the only email posting I did not receive, and
I had to retrieve it from the Web archive of UFO UpDates.

You deleted my entire "citation" and discussion with "names"
including quoting straight out of your UFO Encyclopedia article,
vol. 1, p. 386b.

Accusing me of "CSICOP-style polemics" just because I critique
some methodology issues is name-calling. You also accused me of
calling ETHers "fools and idiots" when in fact I used no such
words or anything of the sort - you introduced the words "fools
and idiots." I criticized the shutting down of numerical ETH
model development by use of arguments about "magic level alien
technology" and "aliens are too alien for us to understand" type
arguments. How is that "fools and idiots" name-calling Jerry?

I pointed out that here on UFO UpDates these "magic alien" type
arguments are turned into emotional tirades the moment anyone
starts trying to build:

(a) a consistent ETH model that does not mix say 22nd century
technology with 30th century and 100th+ century (the alien
"magic" level of technology),

(b) testable model, preferably quantitative,

(c) comparatively contrasted with other models so we can see how
this ETH model (or models) holds up.

I also pointed out that ETH advocates can "protect" themselves
from instant refutation (the kind of simplistic refutation SETI
advocates like to do by doing UFO advocates' work for them,
first proposing then knocking down UFO models which the UFO
community itself won't produce). Simply produce an array of sub-
 models of ETH with a range of numbers instead of just one
stand- or-fall, make-or-break number. I've posted on this, the
making of a range of ETH models, here on UFO UpDates for years.
But the price of doing that is the risk of weakening the entire
structure of ETH modeling by making it unfalsifiable. Again I do
not see how that is "fools and idiots" name- calling Jerry.

I talk about "scientific methodology," "Occam's Razor," "magic
technology levels," and "ETH modeling," and you claim I am
saying "fools and idiots." Maybe you could use your years of
expert editor skills and rewrite my postings for me to delete
all these offensive references to "scientific methodology" that
you deem to be likening someone to "fools and idiots." I don't
know though if there would be anything left after the editing.

This is the scientific process. If UFO advocates of ETH do not
like the models SETI has constructed for UFO's then they need to
build better models. But they cannot bow out of the whole model-
building process and expect to be considered scientific. The UFO
community needs to improve upon any models of ETH that SETI has
come up with, not discard them all - or if SETI's work is not
salvageable then replace it entirely, with better models, but do
not dodge the whole model-building process altogether using
excuses about how the "aliens are just too hard for us to
understand."

You have to prove that the aliens are too hard to understand,
first, before you can resort to that argument, otherwise you are
violating Occam's Razor. And to prove that you are going to have
to run through all of the scenarios where we test out models of
alien behavior as if we think we understand likely alien
behavior, and only if and when those all fail (if they ever do,
after all we might succeed you know!) then we can resort to
hand-wringing about how impossible it is to figure out the
ineffable incomprehensible "wholly- other" (God-like in some
theologies) "alien mentality." Because at that point you will
have given up the whole enterprise, and you can quit "studying"
UFO's as ETH because you will have proved that to be an
impossible, futile exercise. (And at any point before reaching
that dire end, another theory better than ETH might come along
and just sweep ETH away, you never know.)

To claim that we cannot possibly understand aliens is to
effectively shut down all theoretical work on ETH, since it has
been declared an "impossibility." Do you disagree with that
Jerry? I cannot see how you can. If you disagree then please
tell me how we are to carry on any ETH "research" when it has
been declared "impossible because aliens are far too advanced
for us to comprehend"? How do you study what you deem un-
 studyable?

Since you claim that there has been so much good "writing" on
ETH I asked you to prove my points wrong by coming up with a few
quotes showing that someone has built some testable,
quantitative models of ETH behavior. But you did not quote
anyone. Instead I quoted _you_ back to yourself from your own
encyclopedia showing how you yourself short-circuited Vallee's
numbers argument against ETH by using the "beyond our ken" alien
arguments of Aime' Michel. Instead of correcting Vallee's
numbers or improving his model, or citing someone else who did,
you just threw it _all_ out. And that's my point exactly. It
always ends right there, with thought-terminating appeals to
magic levels of alien technology, with no other alternatives
considered first before resorting to what is essentailly just
giving up.

There is nothing "hyperbolic" or "personally attacking" in any
of that. No one is being called "fools and idiots" in that kind
of methodological criticism. But I do object to the emotional
attacks that are launched against such ETH model-building on UFO
UpDates whenever such model-building is attempted, and I have
every right to protest such abuse and to call it abuse.

As for "names and citations" you deleted my specific citation to
_your_ encyclopedia and my lengthy paraphrase and quote from it.
Your encyclopedia article has dozens of references in it. But to
prove my point I need go no farther than to quote Jerry Clark
back to Jerry Clark:

Here is what you wrote (vol. 1, p. 386b):


Clark: "The widespread notion that strangeness quotient alone
eliminated the ETH did not sway Aime Michel.... For
extraterrestrials to visit us, they would have to accomplish
what to us is impossible: the traversing of deep space. Thus,
Michel reasoned, the intelligences and their technology would
necessarily be so far beyond our ken as to seem magical or
irrational."


There it is from your own monumental encyclopedic compendium of
UFO research - the "magic" level of alien technology and the
"beyond our ken" alienness arguments, the thought-terminating
theory-killers that stop all theoretical ETH development in UFO
research. If this is _not_ true, then please supply some salient
quotes showing that someone within the _UFO community_ has built
testable quantitative models of ETH that will stand up on their
own and are not just potshots at SETI publications and
arguments, and are not short-circuited by "aliens are magic to
us" thinking.

Stan Friedman has made some cogent counterarguments to the SETI
anti-UFO anti-ETH models, but you do not even discuss that work
of his in your Encyclopedia article and have only one lone
citation to Friedman on ETH buried in a string of generic
citations to ETH articles, mentioning nothing of his refutation
of SETI models and none of his own ETH modeling if he has any
(your Swords article on ETH does not even cite Stan at all). But
as far as I know Stan has not built any positive, quantitative,
testable ETH models - I seem to recall decades of him getting
put-downs for being "too much nuts- and-bolts." Well this ETH
modeling is "nuts and bolts" science. If you have quotes of
testable ETH modeling work somewhere I would really like to see
it. If there _is_ some obscure publication somewhere then I bet
it has been utterly ignored in the UFO community because it did
not bow down to the inscrutable-magic-godlike-alien dogma or it
was branded "too nuts-and-bolts." I certainly have not heard of
it. Show me. I'm all ears. I would love to have a paper to start
with to build upon with quantitative ETH modeling, if at all
possible, that does not come from the SETI camp or that does not
simply shoot down the SETI arguments and offer nothing in their
place constructively.

Like the Presidential campaigns, positive constructive
campaigning based on what the candidate will do if elected, not
negative campaigning simply based on tearing down the other guy
- that has its place but it gets tiring after a while and you
just want to know what positive program is offered in its place.
What is the positive ETH theory-building program that the UFO
community has to offer in place of SETI's negative campaign that
claims theoretical disproof of ETH and the UFO phenomenon - a
positive constructive ETH model instead of the UFO community's
negative counter-campaign against SETI's negative campaign?


Brad








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:34:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:09:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:01:34 -0300
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 01:13:57 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:42:52 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>>Please forgive me, friends, but I don't have time to write a
>>text dissecting those ridiculous photos to demonstrate that they
>>are fake.

>>You had Roy's review, and now I offer mine.

>>If you don't credit my fifty years in UFO studies with teaching
>>me enough about either photography and/or the optical properties
>>of bona-fide UFOS as to enable me to spot one of the phoniest
>>books of 'UFO photographs' to come along in a few years, then
>>fine, no hard feelings. Throw your money to the wind, if you
>>prefer, but remember, you were cautioned.

>>Nice glossy paper, though. :)

>>Caveat emptor,

>Ray, All,

>What came first, the chicken brooder or the UFO?

>You, inadvertently, raise an interesting question Ray and it's
>something I've wondered about over the years.

>Quite often I'll blow off a UFO picture because it looks like
>Adamski's chicken brooder or one of Billy Whatizzname's
>creations.

>The thing is we don't really know what many of them look like.


Hi, Don,

Those are good questions honestly raised.

Whether one knows how bona-fide UFOs register on film depends on
how much in-field success one has had with excellent cameras and
other instruments.

For example, some agency or agencies (I am glad to be able to
say) in the U.S. government knows how a heck of a lot of them
look.

Remember the reports of how, after a sighting from, for example,
an aircraft carrier, an agent was said to have flown in, asked
the reporting pilot or other observers to point out (from a book
of images) which type of object was observed, and them departed?
[UFO historian Dick Hall, if he is reading this, could probably
refresh our memories on a case or two like that.]

Remember when I reported to this list the fact that an FAA
person in their Dallas, Texas, headquarters mistook my call
under my project's name for that of a government project and
asked me if I wanted to acquire the UFO "plasma penetration
radar images" or just the ordinary "radar paints"? (Taped
recording of that conversation in my files.)

Well, Don, those kind of happenings and others suggest that
'Uncle Sam' may known quite a bit about how the real UFOs (and
probably their associated high-speed luminous propulsive
phenomena) look on film, and, thus, how to distinguish the
signal from the noise.

While stressing that after thousands of hours of UFO-monitoring
field work (in daylight and at night) in UFO 'hot spots' with a
couple of million bucks worth (as of the mid 1970s, when we
began assembling it) of electronic and optical equipment for UFO
hard data and image recording, we hardly have the wide range of
UFO data our illustrious 'Uncle Sam' has surely gathered, I
confess that we have acquired enough high-resolution (telephoto)
movie films (not digital) and high-resolution (telephoto)
'still' photos, spectrographic too, as well as electronically
recorded waves (ELF magnetic and also correlated gravity or
gravity-like waves) from UFOs during filmed visual events, as to
be able to look at any reasonably high resolution 'UFO' optical
image and likely be able to tell you whether it is or is not of
a bona-fide UFO.

Hey, Don, I realize that will sound incredible to many on this
list, but I trust that the scientifically minded want to know
more about UFO appearance and how some rather exotic physics
effects it, than what can be discerned from visual observations
(valuable as they are) and anecdotal accounts. I hope such
persons will listen to what I am about to say and keep watching
for the evidence I will begin to release and interpret (with
help from some physicists and aerospace engineers) this coming
Autumn (in a context presently known but to be announced later).

So, please consider this, for now: My project's recordings
demonstrate that every UFO we have ever monitored has very high-
speed light pulsation and pulsed optical phenomena effecting
backlighting (light passing a UFO from behind it). We are not
guessing or relying on mere visual observations.

The fact is that whenever we have (during those thousands of
hours of instrumented field work, from on the ground and in the
air) filmed a daylight UFO moving fast enough as to produce a
resolvable image smear on the film, that smear invariably
contains clear evidence of one or both of the following: (1)
high-speed (often within the flicker fusion range of the human
visual/perceptual system, or else simply light pulse too short
for our eyes to register and, hence, not visible to the eye)
luminous phenomena, and high-speed alternate pulses of opacity
and transparency! List members, you probably read that last part
correctly, and I meant it when I said, "...high-speed alternate
pulses of opacity and transparency". I did not mean absolute
invisibility. Choice of the word "transparency" is quite
deliberate. There is physical theory that might explain the
mechanism of that startling phenomenon. Pulsed transparency!
Pulse it fast enough and the human visual system would flicker
fuse it, and the object would be virtually invisible, due to
transparency (unless one looks very closely). That might account
for how people think they see UFOs disappear right before their
eyes, and then suddenly reappear at or near the same location.

If either of those phenomena are filmed when the object's path
is extremely foreshortened due to travel direction relative to
the camera, resolution of the aforementioned phenomena can
become either nearly or completely concealed, but , otherwise,
it is always detected on film.

I have carefully reviewed every photo in the book under
discussion, and although quite a few of them show object image
smear, not one of them show either of the aforementioned
phenomena.

By the way, quite a lot of what might be interpreted as damage
to old photographs or negatives in 'UFO' photos shown in that
book actually looks to my quite experienced eye as though they
were inserted artificially to make the photo(s) look old. I am
not the first experienced photographer who has looked at those
photos, noted that, and commented publicly.

Concerning luminous phenomena in UFO photos and movies that my
project has gotten, most of those phenomena appear to be
patterns of plasmas (electrified air, in this case) generated at
or near an object's surface, unless they take the form of
glowing, columnated beams (sometimes containing nodes of a
different color than the beam, but usually not) which are often
projected between two objects, but at other times downward
toward things or persons on the ground.

The luminous phenomena that are not in the form of beams are the
more numerous, and the light-emitting or light-generating (in
adjacent air) surfaces or patterns are never solid (as with the
'light ring' in some of Ed Walter's notorious Gulf Breeze
photos) but consist of series of segmented emitters (or emission
patterns), sometimes square, sometimes round, usually most
obvious around the outermost rim of disc-like, hexagonal,
pentagonal, or sometimes other 'geometrically shaped' objects.
Less prominently-luminous emissions can come from less-obvious
or even recessed (and usually hexagonal) devices than what are
sometimes called 'rim electrodes' (the plasma could be generated
by masers or even lasers, so electrodes may not be the right
description).

No evidence of such patterns (do not mistake black spots painted
on the sides of models or 'dayglow' orange stickers for such
phenomena) are seen in any of the photos in the book under
discussion, but if you examine reports like the highly reliable
observations from airline pilots, you will read descriptions of
such in many of the best-documented cases. Of course, observers
see and report such emission patterns in observations from the
ground, too, with witnesses often mistaking the emitting devises
(or their near-surface emissions) for "lighted portholes".

The referenced book is loaded with photos of deliberately
slightly-unfocused model 'UFOs'. Look on almost any page. That
is not the way bona-fide UFO field effects cause real UFO to
appear in photos. In many of the book's photos, alleged to have
been taken at different places, the same phony painted little
UFO models are used, again and again. It is really quite
ridiculous. If someone cannot discern those photos of models for
being the fakes they are, that person doesn't know much about
photography, and even less about the photographic properties of
the truly remarkable technological objects that visit our skies.

How do the real field effects appear in actual UFO films and
photos? We have documented several classes of such phenomena. I
shall mention three that we have filmed more than once:

(1) An actual dipolar magnetic field surrounding an object made
remarkably and photographically visible when there is sufficient
plasma flowing along magnetic lines of force of the object's
field. In one daylight movie I got from an airliner which
clearly shown that phenomenon, the intense magnetohydrodynamic
flow in the upper region becomes so 'plasma hot' and intense
that one can clearly see the refraction shadow of that flow
visible on the layer of cloud 28,000 feet below! Some photos or
films taken by others also show magnetohydrodynamic flow visible
around certain UFOs, but most 'UFO researchers' have amazingly
overlooked them. Yet, commendably, a few others have noticed
them. This phenomenon is easily observed visually in some UFO
observations, if one looks for it and isn't too distracted with
the object, per se.

(2) A puzzling, vertical, almost-tubular, slightly diverging,
tight 'spiral' above or below a daylight UFO (possibly made
visibly by differential light refraction of backlighting,
because it does not seem to contain much if any independent
luminosity). Polarization bias in the object's backlighting, or
via the camera, seems to help make this phenomenon more visible
to photographic film. While observing and filming the UFO that
have produced this particular phenomenon, neither I nor my
project staff have noticed the phenomenon, even though it shows
up on the film. That doesn't mean we necessarily could not have
visually observed it, but possibly that we were just so
fascinated in watching the UFO(s) observed, per se, that we
didn't look for it.

(3) Around every UFO of the 'landing-size class' that we have
ever filmed (as contrasts with the large carrier vehicles), and
seemingly due to optical phenomena that we may or may not be
beginning to understand, mysterious and multiple 'ghost-like'
images of the object one is watching (but in various rotations
that are not always from the same perspective as the 'parent'
object of those images that one is watching), are visible with
varying degrees of contrast, and sometimes in a variety of
sizes, arrayed around the image of the object being consciously
filmed! The higher the shutter speed, the fewer such images you
will get on a given film frame. The longer the exposure, the
more you will get. But it is best in studying this phenomenon to
use as fast a shutter speed as possible, or else the seemingly
rotating projection pattern of those images will begin to cause
those images to overlap on each other, potentially confusing
their interpretation. Those ghost images' sometimes appear to be
positive images of the UFO, sometimes negative ones! Against a
blue sky, those images are various shades of blue. At sunset,
they appear as various shades of whatever the predominant sky
colors. It is this phenomenon that seems to be responsible for
reports like that of the famous Boy Scout encampment daylight
sighting on Santa Catalina Island off the California coast
(Published in one of CUFOS' publications, but I don't recall
which one.), in which observers reported that the sky around the
object seemed mysteriously deeper bluer than the rest of the
blue sky beyond it. I suggest that the multi-image phenomenon
was happening at such speed that the human visual system was
simply flicker-fusing the many images into one surrounding blue
blur. The multi-image phenomenon should not be confused with the
beautiful blue corona that some UFOs produce at times.

None of those three UFO-generated phenomena are in evidence in
any of the photos in the book that started this discussion.

I could describe some other remarkable UFO phenomena that our
field work has documented, but those three are enough to
illustrate how it is that, based on our instrumented UFO
monitoring, colleagues and I believe that we have learned to see
whether an alleged (and reasonably high-resolution) UFO photo or
movie shows a bona-fide technological object of the types we
have documented, or is just of a model (even an artificially
lighted model) or some other prosaic object or natural
phenomenon.

I can imagine someone 'out there' objecting, as he reads this,
and asking, "Well, how do you know that an alleged UFO photo
might not be of a type that you have not as yet encountered and
which does not create those phenomena on film?"

My response is simply this: Any exotic technological object
capable of the maneuvers and speeds associated with traditional
UFO reports is, of necessity, using a highly exotic propulsion
system. Such a propulsive technology will most certainly produce
extraordinary luminous and optical phenomena because of the
energy levels necessary to produce very high speeds and abrupt
(by our standards) maneuvers. I have filmed UFOs in daylight
since 1956, and every single such object that I or my project
has filmed shows some of the exotic phenomena described, plus
others, in many cases. We have never seen anything that looked
like a UFO to us that did not do so, and 'control' films we have
made of prosaic sky objects (even under conditions of unusual or
exceptional lighting) fail to produce the phenomena we have
documented in association with bona-fide UFOs on film.

If Roy Hale wants to believe those photos in the book, fine. Why
should I object, but I felt it my duty to offer my experience-
based warning that the book is full of photographic fakes.
Anyone fools himself who thinks that exotically performing
objects do not generate exotic physics, some of which will be
visible to film. Those photos show absolutely none. Photograph
the real item, and you will record some form of exotic physics
at work for whatever beings or things build what we call UFOs.

So, no, Roy, I didn't have to do the kind of investigation you
ask about on those photos. It was not necessary, and the book is
so sparse of information on almost every photo that the
traditional method of investigation is impossible, just as
Steven Kaeser pointed out to us. But, research tends to come up
with new, much more efficient and effective methods of
evaluation and make them available to researchers from time to
time, and that is exactly what my project's in-field work has
availed us. Those who reject such new 'tools' without due
evaluation will be very much like the fool who wrote that
idiotic old UFO photographic analysis axiom that said if
someone's UFO film or photo does not describe exactly what was
described by the observer before the film was processed, them
the case is either a hoax or otherwise worthless! In reality,
the reverse is probably nearer to being worthy of adoption as a
photo or film evaluation axiom!

Such fake photos as those in the book may be the toys or all-
day-suckers of UFOlogical dreamers, but they will never provide
you or me one tiny bit of insight into UFO physics.

Before very long, each of you will be able to see for yourself
the kinds of evidence I have been discussing here. And when you
have a chance to examine the evidence for yourself, you may
decide to start applying that knowledge to alleged UFO photos
and films. You will not have to make your decision about whether
someone has really filmed a real UFO based on whether the
photographer has an academic degree that gives you confidence in
him or her, about his or her social status, or even whether the
person is an expert photographer and shouldn't be believed
because UFOs allow only amateur photographers to take pictures
of them. :) Such are ridiculous criteria, but tend to be used by
those who are more interested in protecting their own
reputations than any love to learn how actual UFOs present on
film.

The forthcoming evidence will definitely 'raise the bar' as to
what will then be considered a bona-fide UFO film or photo. It
will not lower it. The pelicans could delight because so many
well-know 'UFO photos' go down in the flames of UFO propulsive
realties discovered, but they will become very desperate because
those same propulsion-diagnostic discoveries will prove how very
wrong they have been.

So, Don, I have gone out on a limb (I say "out on a limb" only
because I have not yet published the discussed evidence for all
of you to evaluate for yourselves.) in order to answer your
honest and deserving questions. But I hope my discussion helps.
I have also provided this little bit of what we have learned as
a parting 'gift' to this list, since I must be "ridin' on" to a
situation whereby I can finally share the actual evidence some
of you have patiently heard me mention probably all too many
times.

I will close with this sad note: Digital imaging has so
proliferated that it may not be long before it is impossible to
get any kind of 8 mm or 16 mm movie film, and maybe even 'still'
film. Already, I cannot find 'Super 8 mm" movie film for our two
very fine telephoto zoom cameras. :( Neither my project nor I
personally have ever used digital cameras to record UFOs, and I
hope we never have to resort to that, because videos and digital
movies would cause pelicans to scream, "Fake! Fake!" without due
examination. Furthermore, there are serious problems with
digital images, such as pixel bleed, etc., etc., etc. .....

Then too, I am not even certain whether or not some of the
important very high-speed propulsion diagnostic physical
phenomena we have documented on color film could even be
captured by digital imagery because the image acquisition
techniques are so very different. Time will answer that
important question. Meantime, I'm just very glad we caught UFOs
in action on good, old-fashioned film, so that at least the
chant of "PhotoShop!" will not be heard from Pelican's Wharf.


Ray Stanford









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:54:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:12:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Maccabee


>From: Brad Sparks <BRB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:25:07 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:33:23 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>Stan has also been a lone voice crying in the wilderness as to
>the largest statistical analysis of UFO and IFO data ever
>conducted, the Blue Book Special Report No. 14 by the Battelle
>Memorial Institute. No one listens to Stan on the Battelle
>study.

One person (besides Brad) does.... and did.

Many years ago (middle 1970's) I studied the report carefully
and even revised some of the statistical analysis. I reported on
this analysis in a tw-part article that appeared in the Journal
of UFO Studies in the late 70' and 80's.

The bottom line was that of the 3201 sightings they studied
about 20% were unknown. Moreover, in the group of sightings
classifed as the best in terms of reported details and
qualifications of the witness(es), about 33% of the sightings
were uknown. This contradicts the opinion as stated by Condon
that "only poor observers report UFOs" (paraphrase).

The revised statistics (which Brad checked, lo these many years
ago) confirm the original statistical result that when general
characteristics (shape, color, duration of sighting, etc.) of
the unknowns and knowns are compared, the unknowns are found to
be different from the knowns.

Furthermore, one of the best multiple witness sightings
"ever" was made available for the first time in the
Battelles study (Case 10, Rogue River, May, 1949).
I have studied this sighting in depth, have used it in
lectures and have included it, along with other results of
the Battelle study, in *both* of my UFO books:

The UFO-FBI Connection and Abduction In My Life

see: http://brumac.8k.com or amazon.com for info and reviews

>No one in the UFO community even knows the true story of
>why the Battelle study came to be in the first place -- it's
>always the bland blah blah about how someone wanted to do some
>statistics blah blah blah.

>The real story is that the new Project GRUDGE Chief Lt. Ruppelt
>plotted UFO sightings on a map to do a geographic analysis as
>one of his first projects upon taking over the revived Project
>GRUDGE. Ruppelt was surprised to find a large number of clusters
>of UFO sightings around highly sensitive strategic US military
>and nuclear bases.

>When Ruppelt briefed the new director of AF Intelligence, Gen.
>Samford, on this in Dec. 1951 Samford was startled too, and
>ordered that a full-scale scientific study be conducted for the
>specific purpose of verifying Ruppelt's findings regarding UFOs
>concentrated around strategic nuclear and military bases. ATIC
>had just started a broad ranging consulting contract with
>Battelle on a wide variety of non-UFO intelligence subjects
>(analysis of Soviet metallurgy, etc.) and made Samford's orders
>for the UFO geographic study part of an important sub-project
>PPS 100) at Battelle, and added into it a broader statistical
>study of UFO sightings, plus laboratory services on UFO-related
>physical samples. By the time Battelle fully verified Ruppelt's
>findings, in Jan. 1953, no one cared anymore.

>The statistical study violated the new policy that Samford's
>number two man, Gen. Garland, had established as a new
>intelligence methodology (which was to stop wasting time doing
>analyses of low-grade reports), and it had continued at Battelle
>only because it was Samford's direct orders and personal
i>nterest in verifying Ruppelt's map findings. Thus something
>like $100,000 was spent by the AF on the Battelle study.

My study of the Battelle sighting distribution data as presented
only in a map of the United States, showed that the sightings
seems to cluster around areas with either air force bases or
civilian airports. As very interesting result was that there was
little or no correlation with population, as might be expected
if sightings were all a result of "mental states" of the
witnesses.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                 Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races -

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:33:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:33:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races -




Many List submissions from subcribers arrive here
minus a name before the <name.nul> in the 'From: '.
In those cases I add the name - often from memory.

In the case of:

>From: Alfred Webre <Exopolitics <exopolitics.nul>
>To: media.nul
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

which I posted Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:53:47 -0400 - and relying on
my memory  - I inserted Alfred Webre's name in the header.

My memory failed me.

The submission _actually_ came from Dr. Michael Salla.

My apologies to Alfred Webre, Michael Salla and the
List for not verifying who the address actually belonged to.

Any future responses sent to the List will have the correction
made.


Errol Bruce-Knapp
Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                         Re: Close-Up Photos - Olmos

From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:15:48 +0200 (CEST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:44:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Olmos


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:43:24 -0300
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:42:52 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0400
>>>Subject: Close-Up Photos

>><snip>

>>>Something seems wrong with all this to me - why has there not
>>>been, in the last 50 years, any reasonable close-up photos in
>>>the public domain?

>>Perhaps those who take such pictures, have become aware of the
>>media intention of making them look rather silly in front of the
>>TV cameras? There may be vast private libraries of UFO photos
>>sitting in someone's cupboard?

>>I recently had the fine pleasure of reading and looking at one
>>of the most excellent UFO photograph books of all time, quite
>>stunning close up photos of 'structured' airborne UFOs, from
>>across this vast planet of yours and mine.

>>The book, UFO Richard Brunswick PhotoCollection
>>By Goliath: ISBN 3-9805876-3-0 published in Germany.

>>I really commend this book for a serious and objective look at
>>just how, some UFO pictures across the decades have been caught
>>by the camera, and most in this book I had not seen , as I
>>understand these pictures were privatley collected by this man,
>>over a few decades.

>More details here:

>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/3980587630/aetherialnu0a-20/002-4488104-
5088867

Come on, guys! The Richard Brunwick Photocollection book is a
shame, it is a recognized publishing hoax, none of the photos is
true, the author is a ghost, etc. Please re-read the UFO UpDates
messages from my European colleagues Bruno Mancussi
(Switzerland) and Jean-Luc Rivera (France) dated October 19 and
20, 2002.

The noted Swedish UFO researcher Clas Svahn summarized it in
another message to the e-forum UFOTOLIST: "The book was sold
under the condition that all the pictures were faked". And
Edoardo Russo, the celebrated Italian UFO student, added: "As
far as I remember, the book was clearly aimed to be a collection
of "fantasy" UFO pictures".

I am under the impression that this list of ours needs some more
expertise and background knowledge, and a little bit less of
credulity.


Best wishes,

V-J








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                         Re: Close-Up Photos - Olmos

From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:24:44 +0200 (CEST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:47:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Olmos


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 01:13:57 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>Sure! :) LMAO! If the pages were softer, more pliable, and
>printed with lead-free ink, I'd put in the bathroom. If the
>pages were larger, I'd line the bottom of my bird's cage.

>As it is, I just keep it around to show people how some phony
>'UFO photos' look. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that they
>were all faked by the same person.

Ray, bingo! You are fully right, and your message clearly shows
you have a special eye and sensibility for UFO photography, even
without recoursing to its analysis. How could I call it?

Paranormal perception? No. Something much more simple: common
sense. In Spain we have this saying: Common Sense is the Less
Common of the Senses. It applies to worldwide Ufology as well.
Ray, congratulations for your insight.


Best wishes,

V-J









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

               Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:46:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:49:58 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - Stanford


>From: John Hayes <John.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:09:54 +0100
>Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30

>Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

><Masinaigan.nul>
>==========================

>   UFO ROUNDUP
>Volume 9, Number 30
>July 28, 2004
>Editor: Joseph Trainor

>E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
>Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/

<snip>

>NEW ANTARCTICA MYSTERY

>   "Researchers have uncovered a Martian meteorite in
>Antarctica, one of only about 30 known Mars space rocks on
>Earth."

>   "The specimen was found in December (2003) on an ice
>field about 466 miles (745 kilometers) from the South
>Pole, by a research team financed by NASA and supported by
>the National Science Foundation."

>   "Scientists say the mineralogy, texture and oxidized
>nature of the rock are unmistakably Martian. At this
>point, there is no suggestion that the meteorite bears
>evidence of fossilized life." (See USA Today for July 22,
>2004, "Piece of Mars found in Antarctica," page 4D.)
>(Editor's Comment: This leaves unanswered the question of
>how this rock crossed 52 million miles of space and
>arrived on Earth. Maybe a UFO landed on Mars, and the
>rock became lodged in its landing gear. Later, as the
>saucer was making its final approach into an alien base in
>Antarctica, the rock came loose and landed in the ice
>field. In short, the rock came to Earth the same way the
>dandelion came to North America--by ship.)

Give people a break, Mr. Trainor! How Martian meteorites arrived
here has been determined, and the evidence clearly indicates
they did not arrive in an alien spacecraft. They were ejected
from Mars by cosmic impacts (most likely glancing blows), which
is evidenced, for example, by the fact that the mineral
plagioclase in them has been transformed by the energy of that
impact into a diaplectic glass called maskelynite.

All Martian meteorites traveled here via very long elliptical
routes (much longer that the 52 million miles to which you
refer) with no protection from cosmic rays and solar wind, as
evidenced by their cosmic ray exposure ages. The Cosmic Ray
Exposure (CRE) age of a Martian meteorite is the length of time
from ejection off Mars until its fall onto the Earth's surface.

The stable noble gas isotopes 3He, 21He and 38Ar are produced
within the meteoroid by exposure to cosmic rays when it is in
space. The production rate of those noble gas isotopes has been
determined experimentally and, thus, a CRE age can be calculated
with reasonable accuracy. CRE age determination is one of
several methods used to learn when the parent rocks were ejected
from Mars. There is also a relatively short terrestrial age -
 which is the length of time that a meteorite has been on the
Earth's surface - that can be added to the CRE age to give a
more precise ejection age.

The Mars ejection ages of the Martian meteorites fall within 7
groups at 20, 15, 11, 4.5, 3, 1.3 and 0.7 million years (Ma.).
Because the nakhlites (one class of Martian meteorites) cluster
at 11 Ma. that fact, coupled with their similar crystallization
ages and mineralogy, suggests that they were derived from the
same set of rocks on Mars and were ejected by the same impact.

There is also a clustering of ejection ages around 3 Ma for 4 of
another Martian meteorite type, the basaltic shergottites,
including Los Angeles, QUE94201, Shergotty and Zagami. ALH84001,
the most famous Martian meteorite (found in Antarctica), has an
ejection age of 15 Ma.

Furthermore, the fusion crust produced on Martian (as on all
other meteorites) by frictional heating during upper-atmospheric
passage (before cosmic velocity has been retarded) further
attests to the fact that Martian meteorites are, in fact
meteorites and not rocks brought to earth from Mars in
spacecraft.

Greater concern for factuality and less totally baseless
speculation would help the scientific world's perception of 'UFO
researchers'. But after years of that kind of irresponsible
presentation, it is not surprising when mainstream science pays
us little attention and that, when it does, the attention is
often negative.


Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

             Congrats To UFO Magazine & Platinum Studios - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:15:30 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:51:45 -0400
Subject: Congrats To UFO Magazine & Platinum Studios - Boone


http://platinumstudios.com/press/ufomag_hr_061804.php

Congrats to the folks at UFO Magazine.

Glad you guys worked something out.

Will be looking forward to what shakes from this tree!


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                     Follow Up On Origin Of Term 'Grays'

From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:39:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:53:50 -0400
Subject: Follow Up On Origin Of Term 'Grays'


A while back I asked about the origin of the term 'Grays" or
'Greys' in reference to the small gray aliens seen by abductees.
I had a couple of private responses, which were helpful.

One source reports from memory that Bill Uhouse was using the
term before 1960. Bill Uhouse is the engineer who did the
illustration of the J-Rod alien (a fairly typical Gray) wearing
a shirt. That illustration is not, by the way, the bad Xerox of
the photograph of the model created by the FX Masters group re-
creating the alien autopsy that was later passed off as a
possible genuine image of J-Rod and talked about on Coast to
Coast AM and featured on UFO Magazine�s website. (Thanks to
Royce Myers for clearing that one up.)

Jenny Randles was not using the term in 1988, but it does appear
in a publication of hers written in 1992.

"The Ultimate Deception" by Commander X, a sensationalist UFO
conspiracy book first printed in 1990, contains a reference to
"underground facilities at Dulce, New Mexico military base taken
over by Greys."

In the "MUFON 1990 International UFO Symposium Proceedings" John
Spencer wrote about the differences between perceptions of
ufology in America and Europe. He wrote that while people in
England ask him whether UFO researchers believe little aliens
exist, his American colleagues take the existence of aliens for
granted when they describe to him "what the greys were up to
last week." So in 1990 John Spencer was using the term but he
put it in quotations because it was not his term. It was a term
in use by his American colleagues who accepted the
extraterrestrial hypothesis.

To sum up, it seems to me that the term "Grays" may have been in
use by people in government or military circles who dealt with
the alien presence as far back as the 1960s or earlier, though
I'd need further confirmation of that before I can feel very
certain about it, and I doubt that such confirmation will be
forthcoming because of the difficulty of knowing anything about
the jargon that was used in clandestine circles. In any case, it
seems that the term began to leak into public awareness possibly
in the eighties with the discussions of the alleged Dulce base,
Christa Tilton abduction and so forth. By 1990 it was finally
showing up in a very limited way in the UFO literature, and by
the mid-nineties it was common knowledge, having been used
widely in the literature and also on television.

I would still welcome any input from those who may have further
insight into where and when the term "Grays" originated, and why
we call them that today when in the eighties they were known by
more generic terms such as aliens, humanoids or UFO occupants,
or specific terms such as EBEs or Zeta Reticulans. Also, if
anyone knows of any books or articles published before 1990 in
which they are referred to as "Grays" this would be helpful.


Thanks.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                          Re: Varginha Again - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:01:49 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:56:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Hall


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:50:03 +0200
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:41:45 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:53:01 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>All right, I can't resist any longer. Although I have not
>>followed this thread (out of sheer disinterest) except for an
>>occasional peek, I suggest they be renamed the "Varginha
>>Monologues."The joke, for our overseas contributors who may
>>not be aware of it, derives from the stage play the "Vagina
>>Monologues."

>Dick and All

>This time, I am not going to say that I find you funny, like I
>did after a silly joke of Brad Sparks. Someone thought I was
>taking side with him ! I was not.

>So, "let's make things clear", like President Nixon used to say:
>I don't find this funny at all!

>The Varginha case already stands as a very strong one, with many
>credible witnesses. If some phony pictures have appeared, they
>don't change that. And the fact there have been some confusing
>messages about the remarkable testimony of a Doctore, should not
>change that either. Read again the article of Bob Pratt and
>Cynthia Luce in the Mufon UFO Journal of August 1998, for
>instance, or any other article. I just quoted one from the
>British UFO Magazine (April 2003) which apparently nobody knows
>on this list.

>BTW, talking of bad cases, I recommend that you take out of your
>excellent book "The UFO Evidence" the Ummo case, which is known
>worldwide to be a hoax. The authors of the fake landing of
>Alluche (1966) and of the fake pictures of San Jose de Valdeiras
>(1967) were unmasked long ago by spanish ufologists.

Gildas,

Where in The UFO Evidence do you see anything about the Ummo
case? It's certainly not in either volume to my knowledge, at
least in any positive way, since it is a well-known hoax as you
say.

As for Alluche (1966) if yoiu look at my footnotes the case was
reported by Ballester-Olmos and attributed to him. If it was
later discredited, that information did not reach me or anyone
else that I know, and that is simply a sign of poor
communications among UFOlogists.

And I don't even know the case San Jose de Valdeiras (1967).
 The only 1967 photo case I report is Jan. 24, Yorba Linda,
California.

What version of The UFO Evidence are you reading?


 - Dick

P.S. Maybe you are making a joke?








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:07:52 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:18:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:57:37 EDT
>Subject: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>Hi folks,

>I just recalled that I had read several references wherein it
>was suggested and noted that artists were often the target of
>abduction. That the only common denominator for abductees was
>that the majority were artists of some sort.

>If anyone has data on this please let me know.


Greg,

That is simply not so. Every so often some ill-informed or
misguided person makes ridiculous cliaims like that, which are
not justified by any facts or statistics. At one point Kevin
Randle (though he is a serious and respectable researcher)
argued - quite falsely in my judgment - that a high percentage of
abductees were homosexuals.

In my experience and that of every serious colleague, the
"aliens" (if that is what they are) have proven to be equal
opportunity abductors. No social, educational, racial,
intellectual, or other biases.


 - Dick








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:16:42 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:24:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Hall


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:05:36 -0500
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

<snip>

>Please point out what is "obviously" incorrect in Mr. Salla's
>thesis. Having not had the opportunity to see what Mr. Salla has
>seen, I'm at a loss to divine what of his statement is patently
>false.

>I don't buy it, but I can't refute it either. One interesting
>note is the fact that there are 57 varieties of ETs point to
>a connection between ETI and that whole Heinz bunch. Teresa
>doesn't sound like she's from around here.....


Kyle,

You're right. She's obviously from a planet of far superior
intelligence to ours where people seem to have mush for brains
when it comes to spotting obvious frauds or crazy people.

What isn't wrong with Salla's outpouring? It is complete and
utter wild specualtion without an iota of factual supporting
evidence. And incidentally, I didn't notice at first that he has
lost his academic standing at American University. Can't imagine
why.

 - Dick








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                   Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:32:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:25:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Shell


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:06:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack

>The discovery of "dark matter" was not the result of a
>photograph. Hubble photos have been used to support the theory,
>just as UFO photos have been used to support ET theory. The
>question of dark matter was raised to explain the great
>disparity between that matter which we are able to observe and
>that which theory indicates we should be able to observe. It
>didn't arise FROM the Hubble photos.

Bit of the subject, but I read a very nice article in Scientific
American the other day attempting to explain the whole universe
acceleration thing without dark matter/energy by positing a loss
of gravitons over long distances due to them getting lost in
other dimensions.Interesting theory that doesn't require the
creation of some new forms of matter or energy.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                 Team To Study Tunguska To Prove It Was UFO

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:53:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:31:04 -0400
Subject: Team To Study Tunguska To Prove It Was UFO


Pravda: Team To Study Famed Tungus Event To Prove It Was A UFO

This story states that a scientific team lit out for Tungus last
week to gather 'evidences' that the famed blast was not caused
by a meteorite but a UFO.

This ought to be fun to keep an eye on.

http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/378/13587_Tungus.html


With luck they'll find the impact site, some debris and
then turn it into a tourist attraction.


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                          Secrecy News -- 07/30/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:35:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:00:22 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/30/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 71
July 30, 2004


**      MOMENTUM BUILDS FOR INTELLIGENCE BUDGET DISCLOSURE
**      SENATE BILL LANGUAGE ON MILITARY SPYING MAY BE DELETED
**      SIBEL EDMONDS AND THE PRICE OF WHISTLEBLOWING
**      FIRST ANTI-MISSILE INTERCEPTOR DEPLOYED IN ALASKA
**      FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION: THE EARLY YEARS


MOMENTUM BUILDS FOR INTELLIGENCE BUDGET DISCLOSURE

The gathering political momentum to publish the size of the U.S.
intelligence budget was reflected and reinforced by a New York
Times story July 29, which noted that budget disclosure should
be among the simplest recommendations of the 9-11 Commission to
implement.

"Of the 40 main recommendations spelled out in the Sept. 11
report, one of the few that the White House could carry out
immediately would be to lift the veil of secrecy on how much the
government spends on intelligence," according to the Times.

By recommending not only disclosure of the aggregate total but
also of individual agency budgets, the 9-11 Commission made it
politically difficult to justify the current posture of absolute
non-disclosure.

The CIA, which is heavily invested in budget secrecy, was placed
on the defensive.

"A C.I.A. spokesman, Mark Mansfield, said Wednesday that the
agency would not comment on whether it still believed that the
overall intelligence budgets should be classified," according to
the Times.

See "White House Considers Disclosing Intelligence Budgets" by
Douglas Jehl, New York Times, July 29:

http://nytimes.com/2004/07/29/politics/29intel.html

One might reasonably ask: What does intelligence budget secrecy
have to do with the events of September 11?

One possible answer is that it is the most visible example of
arbitrary secrecy, and that such secrecy has dulled the wits and
dimmed the performance of U.S. intelligence agencies,
contributing to the failures leading up to September 11.

The point was elaborated in "Agencies criticized for
overclassifying information" by Chris Strohm, Government
Executive Daily Briefing, July 26:

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0704/072604c1.htm

But another possible answer is that budget secrecy really had
nothing to do with September 11, at least nothing more than
hundreds of other "cultural" factors that afflict U.S.
intelligence.

If so, how did it get on the 9-11 Commission's agenda?

Ironically, former DCI George Tenet may have put it there by
suggesting the need to discuss intelligence budget matters with
the public.

"For the bang for the buck, the American taxpayer gets a hell of
a lot for what we give them," DCI Tenet told the 9-11 Commission
last April (SN, 04/15/04).  "And you know, we ought to find a
way to talk to the American people about it."

It was pointed out catalytically that this view does not
correspond to CIA's own budget (non-)disclosure policy, and the
Commission drew the logical conclusion.


SENATE BILL LANGUAGE ON MILITARY SPYING MAY BE DELETED

Legislative language that appeared to authorize new domestic
intelligence collection by the Pentagon may be deleted from the
pending 2005 intelligence authorization act.

Sen. Pat Roberts (R-KS), the chairman of the Senate Intelligence
Committee, filed a proposed amendment July 22 that would remove
the provision from the intelligence bill (section 501 of S.
2386).

Newsweek reported in June that the provision "could vastly
expand the Pentagon's ability to gather intelligence inside the
United States, including recruiting citizens as informants."


SIBEL EDMONDS AND THE PRICE OF WHISTLEBLOWING

If, as the 9/11 Commission diagnosed, U.S. intelligence suffers
from "groupthink," then special attention ought to be given to
fostering dissenting views and protecting whistleblowers.  But
in practice, that lesson has still not been learned.

The allegations of FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds "were at
least a contributing factor" in the decision to terminate her
employment, according to a letter to Congress from FBI Director
Robert Mueller, characterizing the findings of a Justice
Department Inspector General investigation.

The letter, reported in the New York Times on July 29 and in the
Washington Post today, is available on the Project on Government
Oversight web site here:

http://www.pogo.org/m/hsp/hsp-040721-Mueller.pdf

The letter and its significance were analyzed by Fred Kaplan in
Slate here:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2104514/


FIRST ANTI-MISSILE INTERCEPTOR DEPLOYED IN ALASKA

In a momentous act that went nearly unreported, the Department
of Defense last week deployed the first Ground Based Interceptor
in the Missile Defense Complex at Fort Greely, Alaska..

"[It] marks the end of an era where we have not been able to
defend our country against long-range ballistic missile
attacks," said Maj. Gen. John W. Holly, program director for the
Ground-based Midcourse Defense Joint Program Office.

"While this system will constitute an initial limited
capability, it is a vast improvement over our current defensive
posture, which is nonexistent," said Holly.

To the contrary, however, a limited capability may be worse than
none at all if it provokes an adversary to bolster its offensive
targeting of the U.S.

The arms control argument against limited missile defenses was
articulated by Fred Kaplan in "We're Losing the Arms Race With
North Korea," Slate, July 27:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2104430/

While U.S. press coverage of the missile defense milestone was
scarce, the event did not go unnoticed in North Korea, which
predictably interpreted it as a threat.

"The United States, more than ever before, is frantically
clinging to maneuvers to deploy a missile defense system to get
ready for preemptive nuclear strike preparations," according to
a July 26 radio broadcast from Pyongyang.


FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION: THE EARLY YEARS

Let no one say that the Bush Administration has not launched any
new initiatives to enhance public access to government
information.

A new web page from the Federal Trade Commission features
minutes of FTC meetings from March 1915 through October 1917.

See "FTC Minutes: The Early Years" here (thanks to MJR):

http://www.ftc.gov/os/minutes/index.htm

The new web site is part of the agency's commemoration of its
90th anniversary this year.


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                 CCCRN News: Formation Report #5 - Ashgrove,

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:06:59 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:01:34 -0400
Subject:  CCCRN News: Formation Report #5 - Ashgrove,


CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

July 30, 2004

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


FORMATION REPORT #5 - ASHGROVE, ONTARIO

Double circle in wheat, with "half-rings" of standing crop crop
in the larger circle, found July 28 by the landowner (who had
been away), but first seen by another witness on July 27.
Approximately 38 metres (124 feet) long. Initial ground photos,
diagram and preliminary field report are posted on the web site.
Investigation in progress by CCCRN Ontario. The landowner has
requested that the specific location not be publicized (no
visitors except for researchers). This is the fifth report so
far for 2004.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe, send an e-mail with either Subscribe CCCRN News or
Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the subject line to:
cccrnnews.nul

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating
and documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other
possibly related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating
a liason between researchers, farmers, the public, media
and scientists


c. CCCRN, 2004








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:16:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:03:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:45:07 -0300
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:52:58 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

><snip>

>>Does anyone have something that could be called a good statistic
>>on the percentage of the world population... and more
>>specifically the US... has actually stated that they have seen a
>>UFO... something they believe couldn't have been from "around
>>here"?

>I have checked many hundreds of lecture audiences - some as big
>as 2,000... colleges, professional groups etc at the end of my
>"Flying Saucers ARE Real!" lectures.

>"How many here believe they have seen what I would describe as a
>flying saucer, as I described earlier?. I count out loud.
>Typically it is 10% of the people present. Then I ask "How many
>of you have reported what you have seen?" Typically 10% of the
>10%. Then I ask how many of the small group were in the military
>at the time and if they want to tell the rest of us about it.
>Get some great stories and wonderful lines like "I can't ; they
>told me not to say anything." or "They took my pictures" etc.

>>I find stats on those who believe that UFOs exist all over the
>>place, but while that seems to be a valuable statistic to a
>>sociologist, it seems equally worthless in any scientific UFO
>>context.

>>And I'm also very weary of the "message from the space
>>brothers" testimony. While I am unable to label it false, lest
>>I incur anywrath should they be right, it eludes my grasp due
>>to the gargantuan grain of salt accompanying it. Alas, my
>>prejudice revealed.

>Belief questions require a better word than UFO. In one
>classroom of 100 students asked to respond with their eyes
>closed, 80% said they thought most people didn't think any UFOs
>were ET Spacecraft, whereas 80% of the group did think some
>were....


Stan,

Once more you provide not just an answer, but some illumination.

Now, your audiences might be pegged as being a little more
accepting than the average person, but I think your informal
"survey" includes some meaningful information indeed.

So, among attendees you get a fairly consistent 10% saying they
have seen a UFO as you describe them... and further find that 1%
has actually reported their sighting.

Taking your example of a lecture with 2000 attendees, that would
indicate that 200 have seen, and 20 have reported. Those are
sobering numbers. Out of 2000 attendees there are 180 untold UFO
stories.

Even if one dismisses 90% as misidentified mundane phenomena,
that leaves 18 untold stories...per 2000 attendees.

It appears that volumes of UFO information have yet to be
unearthed, just among the huddled masses.

Your comment on "belief questions" finds no dissent with me.

Thanks again!!


Kyle









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:41:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:07:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:54:29 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:10:56 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:02:31 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark


Hi, Brad,

I believe that sometimes you are deaf to the way you may sound
to others. I'm sure that is true of all of us at one time or
another. I stated, and continued to feel, that the tone of your
original communication was sweeping and unfair; the points you
made - many of them good ones - would have been more effectively
communicated if you had not written so tendentiously.We will
simply agree to disagree on that point and let it rest, I hope.

I have too many other things to do than to get involved in a
long discourse on the subject of ufology and the ETH, though
again I refer interested persons to the entry on the subject in
The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed. I have too many other
responsibilities and too little time to devote to extended
discussion or debate at the moment.

That said, I would like briefly to make some general
observations about ufologists and the ETH, and then some
personal ones, before attending to other, more urgent - non-
 ufological - business:

Since the 1960s, as historians of the subject and more-than-
 casual observers know well, ufology and the ETH have hardly
been synonymous. They are synonymous only in outsiders' - and
usually unsympathetic outsiders' - representation of what
ufologists think and do. One can read far more about
ufologists' supposed obsession with the ETH in debunking (and
ridicule-laced) publications such as Magonia and Skeptical
Inquirer than in actual UFO literature. Before the likes of
Swords and Ashpole, consequential writing within our field, with
the honorable exception of Stan Friedman's, had become scarce.
Even now, ETH writing in the published literature is rare. I
exclude contactee and Dark Side mythology from the just-stated,
obviously.

Over time ufologists ceased talking about the ETH for many
understandable reasons. One was that it had become a club to
beat them over the head with. Debunkers asserted that since
ufologists couldn't prove the ETH, there was no reason to take
UFO sightings seriously and to investigate them accordingly.
Ufologists, quite naturally, came to the conclusion that since
indeed we can't prove the ETH (or any other hypothesis about the
nature of the phenomenon), it is wisest - both intellectually
and strategically - to concentrate on data-gathering. They were
led to argue (as in fact I did a couple of weeks ago in a
conversation with a producer from the news division of a major
broadcast network) that UFO reports are best seen as modestly as
possible: as questions for investigation, not as subjects for
sweeping speculation. If a single puzzling report is brought to
a potentially intrigued scientist, it is frankly stupid to
present it as possible evidence for a staggering claim; rather,
it's best brought forth as a puzzle which, if solved, might
teach us something new, possibly even important, and no more.

High-strangeness claims represent a particular dilemma for
ufologists. As Aime Michel wisely observed long ago, they are
not inconsistent with an ETH; it is hardly unreasonable to
expect that visiting extraterrestrials might conduct themselves
very oddly. In private conversations with some very smart
colleagues, I have heard extremely interesting speculations
about the meaning of high-strangeness phenomena in an ETH
context.

On the other hand, as I get older - I have, I now realize
ruefully, spent nearly all of my life in ufology - I find that
my interests are mostly focused on the high-strangeness problem,
and my own thinking has led me away from the idea that the most
extraordinary reports tell us anything about possible visiting
aliens. The search for an ET presence must focus, in my opinion,
on - generally speaking - CE2s, radar/visuals, and the like. It
is my view that no single theoretical model will do for all UFO
phenomena. It is my reading that at least two separate,
unrelated things are happening at once, one physical, the other
purely experiential, and so far it is often difficult to figure
out which is which.

Useful theory-construction is not made out of materials falsely
associated (or out of disputed and dated, even if appealing,
ideas about "falsifiability").

We would be well advised, in my judgment, to continue to gather
data and think about them, and be cautious in our speculation.
As we all know all too well, ufologists do many things wrong.
This is something they're doing right.


Jerry Clark








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:54:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:09:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:53:06 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:52:58 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

><snip>

>One indicator is that the Condon Committee contractor survey
>found that only 13% of those polled would report their sighting
>to anyone. This might mean we have to apply a magnification
>factor of about 8x to the number of reports we have, to estimate
>the total number when including those that were not reported.
>However this polling statistic is heavily influenced by the
>exact wording of the question, and issues such as strangeness
>level. I think that up to a point the more "strange" the
>sighting the _more_ likely it will be reported, because the
>strangeness impels the observer to report but only up to a
>certain point where this effect reverses and the UFO event is so
>strange that it won't be reported because of the strangeness
>factor itself (e.g., probably most CE III entity cases are not
>reported). We might actually have, therefore, most of the
>landing and simple CE I cases and Daylight Discs, but not most
>lights in the sky and entity cases at opposite ends of the
>strangeness spectrum. The lights in the sky being too trivial to
>report and the entities too shocking and discrediting to report.
>It would be nice to have quantitative data to back up these
>impressions but I know of no studies realistically attempting
>it.


Brad,

Very thorough analysis. I'll read your articles on this subject
with interest.

Your numbers seem to support Stan's more informal survey, or at
least they do not argue.

Obviously there is an ingredient of the "Rape stigma" implied in
these analyses. Most rapes go unreported. Some state that it is
due to the sense of powerlessness felt during the experience,
and the reluctance to admit or re-live that powerlessness. I
think there is perhaps a corollary here with the UFO field. Many
CEIII cases report this same feeling of "powerlessness", and
some even describe their abduction experience in terms similar
to rape.

Not surprising that so many would keep the experience to
themselves.

While most UFO reports do not include a CEIII scenario, the
point that many do not report remains obviously valid.

I feel strongly that forums such as this serve the same purpose
as "Rape Hotlines". A place where the "abused" is given at least
an airing. (I use the term "abused" in the way that a highly
anomalous event is described as an "assault" on ones senses or
on ones idea of what is normal)

Hopefully a time will come when the sheer numbers will force a
reckoning, and these stigmas can at last be shown the door.

My fear is that it will remain...like pot
legalization...something that most think is right, but no one in
power seems willing to champion.

More data will encourage more data. Of that I'm sure.


Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:15:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:13:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - King


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:33:42 EDT
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:09:46 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

<snip>

>Suppose you were the government and you wanted to stop UFO
>researchers from getting at your UFO secrets, whatever they
>were. What would you do? Seriously, you can't stop them by
>killing them all, not even the most rabid conspiracy theorist
>thinks that. So what would you do? Would you issue "orders" to
>UFO researchers saying "This is the U.S. Government: You are
>hereby ordered to cease and desist all efforts to seek our UFO
>secrets"??? That very action of issuing provocative orders
>publicly would reveal the very thing you were trying to conceal
>-- the existence of UFO secrets covered up by the US Government.

>So what would you do?

>Have you ever heard of the concept of the "agent provocateur"?
>If you research the history and the definitions (the
>dictionaries are often much narrower than the actual history of
>use of such agents) the "agent provocateur" is:

>Agent Provocateur:

>"Someone who intentionally encourages people working against a
>government to do something incriminating or discrediting."

>Any ideas how that could apply within the UFO community?

>Would an "agent provocateur" usually have good credentials, or
>would he be an obvious lunatic with little or no credentials or
>no respectable background?


Brad,

Good points.

But aren't we _all_ agents provocateur in this forum? Would not
all of us encourage a military man with "real data" to divulge
it in contradiction of his sworn oath not to? Could not _all_ of
us find a justification for such disclosure even knowing that it
is a violation of federal law? I certainly could... and would.

We are all in possession of various "credentials". As I've said
before, Stanton Friedman is a scientist in Physics. In the UFO
field he is an advocate. He might just as well be a garbage man.
His credentials as a physicist are only marginally pertinent to
his stature as a UFO advocate.

His advocacy is bolstered by his scientific method and dogged
determination... both borne of his experience as a physicist.
But his stature as a physicist does not add to his findings.
Even the garbage man could find the "smoking gun"
document... with zero "credentials".

Keep in mind that Stan doesn't focus on the physics of UFOs. His
focus is on government knowledge... and the resulting
cover-up... not on physics. His background supports the method,
but not the meat.

Einstein was a man of few credentials, and yet if his theories
were dismissed because if this, we'd be a much less-advanced
civilization.

In the end, I think Stanton Friedman is an excellent example of
an agent provocateur, although probably not the kind you were
talking about. :)


Kyle









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:13:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:15:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:57:37 EDT
>Subject: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>I just recalled that I had read several references wherein it
>was suggested and noted that artists were often the target of
>abduction. That the only common denominator for abductees was
>that the majority were artists of some sort.

>If anyone has data on this please let me know.

I don't have formal data, but I don't think the majority of
abductees - or even any notably large number - are artists.
Certainly when I attended Budd Hopkins's support groups this
wasn't so.

As far as I know, abductees, demographically, are a pretty
normal cross-section of the population. That's certainly been my
experience of them, though skewed a little bit upscale, in the
sense that you don't find many many poor (or minority or rural)
people contacting abduction researchers. I think it's way out of
their social orbit to do a thing like that, and especially to
stay active in abduction groups, though this isn't a hard and
fast rule.


Greg Sandow








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                      Re: Close-Up Photos - Albrektson

From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:20:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:17:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Albrektson


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:53:26 EDT
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>Bottom line is it's simply numbers.

<snip>

Yes it is a numbers game. But I view the numbers aspect from a
somewhat different angle.

I believe that it is an entirely credible argument that,
although no individual photo is capable of making much impact on
the case for UFO's,the cumulative effect of thousands of such
photos taken over the past 60 years strongly supports the case
for the physical existence of "flying saucers". To argue
otherwise is to maintain that they are ALL fakes and/or cases of
mistaken identity of one sort or another. Raging debates over
the authenticity of a particular photo is one thing, but to
argue that ALL such photos are fakes, misinterpretations, etc is
simply unsustainable. Assuming no mental pathology is in play,
such an argument would suggest the proponent is simply ignorant
of the sheer volume of such photos.

The proponents of such a position have to be correct 100% of the
time. Opponents need only be correct once.

The photographic evidence has unfortunately tailed off over the
past 2 decades as "daylight disk" sightings have diminished in
seemingly inverse proportion to the increasing proliferation of
camcorders and digital cameras.  Why this is happening is one of
the more peculiar aspects of the phenomenon and, as suggested by
another poster, reflects the "high strangeness" of the entire
subject.

With global population increases, low cost quality photographic
equipment and topical interest in the subject, it is certainly
counter-intuitive to see a decline in quality UFO photos.

One wonders if "strange lights in the night sky" type sightings
would similarly diminish if high quality night vision technology
were available to the masses.

For what it's worth, the most impressive UFO photos I have yet
to come across are from the 1993 Australian sighting near Maslin
Beach. I have seen printed versions of these that are far more
impressive than even the screen photos below. Do they feature a
"real" flying saucer? Beats the hell out of me, but they sure
are fun to examine!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/shaman/924/main_page.htm


Erik Albrektson








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:35:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:19:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford


>From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:24:44 +0200 (CEST)
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 01:13:57 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>Sure! :) LMAO! If the pages were softer, more pliable, and
>>printed with lead-free ink, I'd put in the bathroom. If the
>>pages were larger, I'd line the bottom of my bird's cage.

>>As it is, I just keep it around to show people how some phony
>>'UFO photos' look. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that they
>>were all faked by the same person.

>Ray, bingo! You are fully right, and your message clearly shows
>you have a special eye and sensibility for UFO photography, even
>without recoursing to its analysis. How could I call it?

>Paranormal perception? No. Something much more simple: common
>sense. In Spain we have this saying: Common Sense is the Less
>Common of the Senses. It applies to worldwide Ufology as well.
>Ray, congratulations for your insight.


V-J,

Thanks, sincerely. Coming from the director of fotocat (the UFO
photo catalogue) and the UFO researcher whose contributions to
sensible and objectively skeptical UFOlogy I personally regard
most highly ( as I have told people privately for years), that
makes me feel justified to have 'stuck my neck out' in
commenting upon the fraudulent nature of the photos in that
book.

Yes, I was just using my common sense and what I've learned by
our photographic field work which tells me how truly anomalous
UFOs present photographically. Photographed models and
airbrushed images never have what it takes.


With much gratitude,

Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

              Re: Team To Study Tunguska To Prove It Was UFO -

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:49:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:24:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Team To Study Tunguska To Prove It Was UFO -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:53:14 EDT
>Subject: Team To Study Tunguska To Prove It Was UFO

>Pravda: Team To Study Famed Tungus Event To Prove It Was A UFO

>This story states that a scientific team lit out for Tungus last
>week to gather 'evidences' that the famed blast was not caused
>by a meteorite but a UFO.

>This ought to be fun to keep an eye on.

>http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/378/13587_Tungus.html

>With luck they'll find the impact site, some debris and
>then turn it into a tourist attraction.

List,

Any group or individual that sets out to "prove" a hypothesis
instead of to simply _test_ that hypothesis is practicing
pseudoscience from the beginning!

Shades of how "Creation Science" does its pseudoscience to fool
children and the uneducated into thinking the would is a few
thousands of years old!

Furthermore, there is no Tunguska impact site. The explosion was
high in the atmosphere, as evidenced by several factors,
including the pattern of shock-wave-fallen trees.


Ray Stanford








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:37:44 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:26:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:07:52 +0000
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:57:37 EDT
>>Subject: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

<snip>

>In my experience and that of every serious colleague, the
>"aliens" (if that is what they are) have proven to be equal
>opportunity abductors. No social, educational, racial,
>intellectual, or other biases.

I wholeheartedly agree with Dick on this issue. For the past
seven years I've worked with quite a number of abductees, UFO
experiencers and abduction researchers as a sketch artist and as
an illustrator for abduction-related autobiographies and media
productions. While a few of the individuals I've worked with had
a fair amount of creative talent (visually speaking) most
struggled to draw a simple stick man. Come to think of it, many
of the accounts of greys which I sketched for these same people,
in fact, resembled stick men! LOL! (Tippy the Turtle is much
more difficult to draw than a grey.)

While earning a B.A. in Graphic Design from Central Michigan
University I often brought up the subject of UFOs and 'aliens'
with fellow classmates, my advisors and my faculty. Only two
faculty members and a half-dozen students admitted to any sort
of UFO experience.

I really feel that those who have had or who are having repeated
encounters with the UFO phenomenon represent a sort of "anti-
demographic".

As an interesting sidelight to this issue, I have found that
immediately following my own encounters I am much more
creatively charged and can quickly and easily render these
experiences without much effort. The imagery and experiences are
resonant for a day or two following the experience. I've often
wondered if the energies involved in these experiences affect
the brain's creative function in some way.

Also, having gone through several hypnosis sessions with a
qualified hypnotherapist has had a similar effect. For a few
days following a session which I have looked into a consciously-
recalled encounter, I have felt and experienced that same
creative drive and can effortlessly render the experience.


Jeff Westover
Swamp Gas Graphics
http://www.swampgasgraphics.com







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:47:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:28:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Hall


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -": ;
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Moderator
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:33:20 -0400

>Many List submissions from subcribers arrive here
>minus a name before the <name.nul>in the 'From: '.
>In those cases I add the name - often from memory.

>In the case of:

>>From: Alfred Webre <Exopolitics <exopolitics.nul>
>>To: media.nul
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>which I posted Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:53:47 -0400 - and relying on
>my memory - I inserted Alfred Webre's name in the header.

>My memory failed me.

>The submission _actually_ came from Dr. Michael Salla.

>My apologies to Alfred Webre, Michael Salla and the
>List for not verifying who the address actually belonged to.

>Any future responses sent to the List will have the correction
>made.

>Errol Bruce-Knapp
>Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto

Errol,

Very interesting! Now I wonder what Alfred Webre thinks about
the fact, as he himself reported it to the List, that Salla
explicitly denied sending the post.  Curioser and curioser when
it comes to Salla's credibility.

 - Dick







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

               Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:02:26 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:30:49 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - Deardorff


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:46:15 -0400
>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30

>>From: John Hayes <John.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:09:54 +0100
>>Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30

>>Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

>>  "Scientists say the mineralogy, texture and oxidized
>>nature of the rock are unmistakably Martian. At this
>>point, there is no suggestion that the meteorite bears
>>evidence of fossilized life." (See USA Today for July 22,
>>2004, "Piece of Mars found in Antarctica," page 4D.)
>>(Editor's Comment: This leaves unanswered the question of
>>how this rock crossed 52 million miles of space and
>>arrived on Earth. Maybe a UFO landed on Mars, and the
>>rock became lodged in its landing gear. Later, as the
>>saucer was making its final approach into an alien base in
>>Antarctica, the rock came loose and landed in the ice
>>field. In short, the rock came to Earth the same way the
>>dandelion came to North America--by ship.)

>Give people a break, Mr. Trainor! How Martian meteorites arrived
>here has been determined, and the evidence clearly indicates
>they did not arrive in an alien spacecraft. They were ejected
>from Mars by cosmic impacts (most likely glancing blows), which
>is evidenced, for example, by the fact that the mineral
>plagioclase in them has been transformed by the energy of that

>All Martian meteorites traveled here via very long elliptical
>routes (much longer that the 52 million miles to which you
>refer) with no protection from cosmic rays and solar wind, as
>evidenced by their cosmic ray exposure ages. The Cosmic Ray
>Exposure (CRE) age of a Martian meteorite is the length of time
>from ejection off Mars until its fall onto the Earth's surface.

There may be a large uncertainty in our understanding of where
some of these meteorites, discovered mostly on Antarctica, came
from. As I understand it, there are 5 or 6 times as many found
from Mars as from the Moon. Why isn't the ratio at least that
much the other way around, considering the Moon's lesser gravity
than Mars and much greater proximity to Earth?


Jim Deardorff









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:12:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:32:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - White


>From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:46:49 -0400
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

<snip>

>On the other hand, I really find it hard to belive that all this
>stuff could have been going on all this time without many _more_
>people coming forth to tell about it. All these scenarios would
>require there being dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of
>military, government, and scientific people who would know about
>it, in which case its equally absurd to think that so few would
>speak up, no matter how much secrecy they were sworn to. How
>could so many people be privy to the greatest story in the
>history of the world and there not be alot more who would find
>it impossible to keep quiet?

As someone, (along with a couple of thousand aware colleagues
worldwide,) who has gone through 24 years of Hellish harassment
and torture by technology at the same level as that reported by
UFO abductees, it is not surprising in the least that so many
people could be kept shut up. It has happened in our case, so
why not in the UFO arena?

All it takes is a personal demonstration of the pain that this
equipment can ladle out, and threats against: first the job, and
then the individual, and then the family members. If all of that
fails, and it's very unlikely it will, the advanced equipment
can duplicate extreme mental illness or death and it will all
appear entirely natural.

At some point, every member of this List will learn we have been
telling the truth, and that is the answer to the silence among
those in the know about UFOs.


Eleanor White







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:12:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:34:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:07:52 +0000
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:57:37 EDT
>>Subject: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>I just recalled that I had read several references wherein it
>>was suggested and noted that artists were often the target of
>>abduction. That the only common denominator for abductees was
>>that the majority were artists of some sort.

>>If anyone has data on this please let me know.

>That is simply not so. Every so often some ill-informed or
>misguided person makes ridiculous cliaims like that, which are
>not justified by any facts or statistics. At one point Kevin
>Randle (though he is a serious and respectable researcher)
>argued - quite falsely in my judgment - that a high percentage of
>abductees were homosexuals.

>In my experience and that of every serious colleague, the
>"aliens" (if that is what they are) have proven to be equal
>opportunity abductors. No social, educational, racial,
>intellectual, or other biases.

But we have already determined, in an exchange on this List a
couple of years ago, that this is not so, and that there is a
considerable under-representation of Black people amongst UFO
abductees, for whatever reason.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 30

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Chapman

From: Mary Chapman <alfie107.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:12:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:37:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Chapman


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:16:10 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:45:07 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>Once more you provide not just an answer, but some illumination.

>Now, your audiences might be pegged as being a little more
>accepting than the average person, but I think your informal
>"survey" includes some meaningful information indeed.

>So, among attendees you get a fairly consistent 10% saying they
>have seen a UFO as you describe them... and further find that 1%
>has actually reported their sighting.

>Taking your example of a lecture with 2000 attendees, that would
>indicate that 200 have seen, and 20 have reported. Those are
>sobering numbers. Out of 2000 attendees there are 180 untold UFO
>stories.

>Even if one dismisses 90% as misidentified mundane phenomena,
>that leaves 18 untold stories...per 2000 attendees.

>It appears that volumes of UFO information have yet to be
>unearthed, just among the huddled masses.

>Your comment on "belief questions" finds no dissent with me.


I, as a normal citizen, have had at least five sightings, and
only reported one. I was told that it was space garbage, so I
never bothered to report again, even though each sighting was
different.

Therefore, it isn't even a matter of how many_people_ have had
sightings, but how many_actual_sightings!? The number may get
staggering when this figure gets added to the data!


Mary







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                        Re: Close-Up Photos - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:24:18 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:34:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Ledger


>From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:15:48 +0200 (CEST)
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:43:24 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>Come on, guys! The Richard Brunwick Photocollection book is a
>shame, it is a recognized publishing hoax, none of the photos is
>true, the author is a ghost, etc. Please re-read the UFO UpDates
>messages from my European colleagues Bruno Mancussi
>(Switzerland) and Jean-Luc Rivera (France) dated October 19 and
>20, 2002.

>The noted Swedish UFO researcher Clas Svahn summarized it in
>another message to the e-forum UFOTOLIST: "The book was sold
>under the condition that all the pictures were faked". And
>Edoardo Russo, the celebrated Italian UFO student, added: "As
>far as I remember, the book was clearly aimed to be a collection
>of "fantasy" UFO pictures".

>I am under the impression that this list of ours needs some more
>expertise and background knowledge, and a little bit less of
>credulity.


Not sure what "guys" you are referring to. I just forwarded the
Amazon URL, V-J. I don't give a damn about the rest of it.


Don








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:34:06 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:36:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:07:52 +0000
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:57:37 EDT
>>Subject: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>I just recalled that I had read several references wherein it
>>was suggested and noted that artists were often the target of
>>abduction. That the only common denominator for abductees was
>>that the majority were artists of some sort.

>>If anyone has data on this please let me know.

>That is simply not so. Every so often some ill-informed or
>misguided person makes ridiculous cliaims like that, which are
>not justified by any facts or statistics. At one point Kevin
>Randle (though he is a serious and respectable researcher)
>argued - quite falsely in my judgment - that a high percentage of
>abductees were homosexuals.

>In my experience and that of every serious colleague, the
>"aliens" (if that is what they are) have proven to be equal
>opportunity abductors. No social, educational, racial,
>intellectual, or other biases.

Greg,

There is a mix-up. I think it was the UFO researchers themselves
who seem to gravitate to the arts. Musicians, writers and
artists etc. or at least have artistic tendencies.


Don Ledger








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

             Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Race - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:47:33 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:41:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Race - Friedman


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:15:07 -0500
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:33:42 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:09:46 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

<snip>

>>Have you ever heard of the concept of the "agent provocateur"?
>>If you research the history and the definitions (the
>>dictionaries are often much narrower than the actual history of
>>use of such agents) the "agent provocateur" is:

>>Agent Provocateur:

>>"Someone who intentionally encourages people working against a
>>government to do something incriminating or discrediting."

>>Any ideas how that could apply within the UFO community?

>>Would an "agent provocateur" usually have good credentials, or
>>would he be an obvious lunatic with little or no credentials or
>>no respectable background?

>But aren't we _all_ agents provocateur in this forum? Would not
>all of us encourage a military man with "real data" to divulge
>it in contradiction of his sworn oath not to? Could not _all_ of
>us find a justification for such disclosure even knowing that it
>is a violation of federal law? I certainly could... and would.

>We are all in possession of various "credentials". As I've said
>before, Stanton Friedman is a scientist in Physics. In the UFO
>field he is an advocate. He might just as well be a garbage man.
>His credentials as a physicist are only marginally pertinent to
>his stature as a UFO advocate.

>His advocacy is bolstered by his scientific method and dogged
>determination... both borne of his experience as a physicist.
>But his stature as a physicist does not add to his findings.
>Even the garbage man could find the "smoking gun"
>document... with zero "credentials".

>Keep in mind that Stan doesn't focus on the physics of UFOs. His
>focus is on government knowledge... and the resulting
>cover-up... not on physics. His background supports the method,
>but not the meat.

I am truly puzzled by the characterizations of me that I have
been seeing which seem to be based on gross generalizations
based on very limited data. Kyle, and Brad, just how many of my
more than 700 lectures have you heard? More than 600 were to
college and professional groups. Many people have told me that
the reason they attended was my professional background and that
the reason I seemed reasonable to them (only 11 hecklers) was my
scientific approach. This can be judged by post lecture letters
I have received from university and professionhal group
sponsorss.

Just how many of my more than 80 publications have you read? Did
you read my congressional testimony, my letters in Physics Today
and Aeronautics and Astronautics, my more than 20 MUFON papers
including

"Flying Saucers and Physics" and "Star Travel? YES" and "Ufology
and the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence"? Have you read
the two articles about MJ-12 on my website:

http://www.stanfriedman.com ?

Am I an advocate? Of course I am, based on a careful review of
evidence and data, referred to in my publications. I am
certainly not a charismatic hand waver such as Richard Hoagland,
for example.

Yes, I have spent a great deal of time at a total of 20 Archives
to provide data on which to base judgments, such as that a
number of the Tim Cooper MJ-12 documents are emulations and are
not legitimate. I show the originals. Garbage picker? Can you be
specific as to just what in the world this is supposed to mean?
Have you read TOP SECRET/MAJIC with its 10 page bibliography?

>Einstein was a man of few credentials, and yet if his theories
>were dismissed because if this, we'd be a much less-advanced
>civilization.

He had plenty of credentials. His theories were accepted because
they were validated by experiments...

>In the end, I think Stanton Friedman is an excellent example of
>an agent provocateur, although probably not the kind you were
>talking about. :)

Just what am I doing that qualifies me as an agent provocateur?
Yes, professors have taught college courses on UFOs after
hearing me speak. Yes, I have appeared in college classrooms
touting my lecture that evening and often speaking of physics
and flying saucers. I have talked to management clubs of such
corporations as Lockheed, McDonnell Douglas, North American
Rockwell, General Dynamics, Motorola, etc. My being a scientist
is what made all the difference


Stan Friedman








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                         Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:43:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:43:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell


>From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:20:20 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>I believe that it is an entirely credible argument that,
>although no individual photo is capable of making much impact on
>the case for UFO's,the cumulative effect of thousands of such
>photos taken over the past 60 years strongly supports the case
>for the physical existence of "flying saucers".

Agreed.The sheer volume of sightings, combined with the photos,
even though they aren't great (although in contrast to the
overall thesis of the thread, I think many of them are pretty
damned good, and often rejected because they're "too good")
demands serious consideration, and pushes the "they're all
hoaxes or defects" argument to the sharp, opposite-side edge of
Occam's Razor.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                 Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:08:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:47:09 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - King


>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:02:26 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:46:15 -0400
>>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30

<snip>

>>All Martian meteorites traveled here via very long elliptical
>>routes (much longer that the 52 million miles to which you
>>refer) with no protection from cosmic rays and solar wind, as
>>evidenced by their cosmic ray exposure ages. The Cosmic Ray
>>Exposure (CRE) age of a Martian meteorite is the length of time
>>from ejection off Mars until its fall onto the Earth's surface.

>There may be a large uncertainty in our understanding of where
>some of these meteorites, discovered mostly on Antarctica, came
>from. As I understand it, there are 5 or 6 times as many found
>from Mars as from the Moon. Why isn't the ratio at least that
>much the other way around, considering the Moon's lesser gravity
>than Mars and much greater proximity to Earth?

Jim,

The moon is much smaller than Mars. It attracts far fewer
objects. Mars attracts many more objects with which to impact
than the moon. Earth shields the moon from many objects which
might have impacted it. For any impact debris to travel from the
moon to Earth, it would have to leave the moon in a very narrow
range of incident angles. For impact debris to travel from Mars
to Earth would not require a direct angle, since it's so the
debris could just float aimlessly until attracted by Mars'
neighbor... Earth.

A more interesting question is whether there are Mars-type
meteorites on the moon. While Earth shields it, some would
logically have made it... most likely on the dark... or exposed
to the "elements"... side.

I'm not arguing your larger point, but just addressing the
comparison between the moon and Mars as sources of extra-
terrestrial debris.

These aren't a pair of apples.


Best,

Kyle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

             Re: Follow Up On Origin Of Term 'Grays' - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:15:12 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:50:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Follow Up On Origin Of Term 'Grays' - Friedman


>From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:39:33 -0700
>Subject: Follow Up On Origin of Term 'Grays'

<Snip>

>... and why >we call them that (Grays) today when in the
>eighties they were known by more generic terms such as aliens,
>humanoids or UFO occupants, or specific terms such as EBEs or
>Zeta Reticulans. Also, if anyone knows of any books or articles
>published before 1990 in which they are referred to as "Grays"
>this would be helpful.


Having published "UFO Star Bases Discovered" in July, 1973, with
the late B. Ann Slate Gironda in SAGA which was I believe the
first mention of Zeta 1 and Zeta 2 Reticuli asthe base stars
noted in the Betty Hill star map, thanks to Marjorie Fish, I am
curious if anybody is aware of a previous ufological mention of
these two stars. My point is that it seems to me quite possible
that all subsequent mentions date back to that and later
publications. So how come all these supposed channelers of
Zetans or Zeta Reticulans didn't start using these labels much
closer in time to the Hill abduction in 1961??


Stan Friedman








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:27:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:53:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:37:44 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:07:52 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:57:37 EDT
>>>Subject: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

><snip>

>>In my experience and that of every serious colleague, the
>>"aliens" (if that is what they are) have proven to be equal
>>opportunity abductors. No social, educational, racial,
>>intellectual, or other biases.

>I wholeheartedly agree with Dick on this issue. For the past
>seven years I've worked with quite a number of abductees, UFO
>experiencers and abduction researchers as a sketch artist and as
>an illustrator for abduction-related autobiographies and media
>productions. While a few of the individuals I've worked with had
>a fair amount of creative talent (visually speaking) most
>struggled to draw a simple stick man. Come to think of it, many
>of the accounts of greys which I sketched for these same people,
>in fact, resembled stick men! LOL! (Tippy the Turtle is much
>more difficult to draw than a grey.)

>While earning a B.A. in Graphic Design from Central Michigan
>University I often brought up the subject of UFOs and 'aliens'
>with fellow classmates, my advisors and my faculty. Only two
>faculty members and a half-dozen students admitted to any sort
>of UFO experience.

>I really feel that those who have had or who are having repeated
>encounters with the UFO phenomenon represent a sort of "anti-
>demographic".

>As an interesting sidelight to this issue, I have found that
>immediately following my own encounters I am much more
>creatively charged and can quickly and easily render these
>experiences without much effort. The imagery and experiences are
>resonant for a day or two following the experience. I've often
>wondered if the energies involved in these experiences affect
>the brain's creative function in some way.

>Also, having gone through several hypnosis sessions with a
>qualified hypnotherapist has had a similar effect. For a few
>days following a session which I have looked into a consciously-
>recalled encounter, I have felt and experienced that same
>creative drive and can effortlessly render the experience.


Jeff,

There's some very interesting detail in your post.

Speaking from experience, transcendental experiences often
result in a burst of creative energy.

Once one has been exposed to experience...anecdotal OR
personal... which causes a great paradigm-shift, ones "mental
barriers" to such phenomena are breached. This opens the mind to
new possibilities. These new possibilities are incorporated into
the conscious mind and manifest in clarity of vision, or in your
case, a greater ability to interpret in your images these "new
possibilities".

In my personal experience, the use of hallucinogens has often
resulted in enhanced creative thought or, at the very least, a
sense of clarity when pondering theoretical questions.

While the statistics might suggest that artists are no more
likely than laymen to experience a UFO, I can easily suggest
that those having had the experience would be more "artistic" as
a result. I use artistic in the sense that art reflects a mind
more "open" to possibilities, and less tied to concretes. Call
it being a little more "abstract".

Art is the ability to interpret... through ones own lens... that
which is.

I feel strongly that ET experience, like LSD, leads to mind
expansion, and that in turn leads to increased "creativity".
Your comments seem to support this feeling.


Great post!

Kyle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Brock

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:42:37 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:00:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Brock


Hello List,

The following was recently posted to the comments section of my
web-log

http://aamb.blogspot.com

in response to my own rather vociferous commentary there about
Dr. Salla's astounding 'revelations'. I had just been reading
the various posts to UpDates on the same subject, and even as I
opened the following brief message, the thought was occurring to
me:

From: "Anonymous" <anonymous-comment.nul>
To: humble98225.nul
Subject: [Aliens Ate My Buick] 7/30/2004 09:49:32 AM
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:49:56 -0700 (PDT)

"You were uncertain of Salla's motivation. Then consider this
sequence - level headed, well educated, astute political
scientist looks around for new research project. Political
science examines, in part, how opinions are formed, especially
how group opinions are formed. Indeed, how gullible is the
public? That is a question that is of considerable interest to
politicians and by extension to political scientists. So set up
a site that promotes the more outrageous ET/UFO concepts and
watch the reactions role in. I can hardly wait for the first
peer reviewed paper to emerge from this field study!"

I stated that the very same thought was occurring to me as I
opened the above message. Yet, after pondering over it, I
realized that even though the thought had been lingering in the
back of my noodle, I had almost unconsciously chosen to leave it
back there, choosing to discount it.

I asked myself: why I should reject the possibility that he's
trying to be Jane Goodall, and is trying to make us the chimps?
I haven't really got a clearcut answer, but I think it's mostly
an ethical sort of thing. Former academic sets forth a blatant
fabrication for the perusal of the masses, as part of a think-
tank study or something...it just seems wrong. It's like the
flip side of the coin, where the ufologist sends up a fake UFO
to gauge reaction during and after the launch. It might prove
some points, but heaven knows, there's so much "noise to signal"
in ufology, that making some more just to prove a point seems
wrong.

Plus, the American public are half-wits. I'd venture that the
_average_ American doesn't have the attention span to get
through one of Dr. Salla's study papers. Too many distractions.
Work, kids, Taco Bell, the Mall, pornography, on and on.....

I'll come back to this shortly.

I have the sense that a rather more sinister scenario than the
above Jane Goodall scenario is what Brad Sparks is getting at in
his latest input on this thread. Let's consider a definition of
"Agent Provacateur:"

"An agent provocateur is a person assigned to provoke unrest,
violence, debate or argument by or within a group while acting
as a member of the group but covertly representing the interests
of another. In general, agents provacateur seek to secretly
disrupt a group's activities from within the group."

(I got this definition at a very handy online resource I
sometimes use for quick reference:

http://explanation-guide.info/)

So, Brad's suggestion is that Michael Salla, credentialed
political scientist, former professor, purported current
researcher at Washington University, comes out with this nut-job
thesis about how 50-odd alien races currently have their
"fingers" in our collective pie, in cahoots with a mostly
military "black" government, all of this unbeknownst to the
President, the person on the street, and to most "serious
ufologists." He also puts together a website devoted to further
evaluation of the political implications of this nut-job thesis.
All completely serious, presented in characteristically dry
academic style (which makes it seem all the more ludicrous, in
my opinion).

The _purpose_ of all of this, if Michael Salla does, indeed,
represent an "agent provacateur," would be "... to to provoke
unrest, violence, debate or argument by or within a group
[ufologists] while acting as a member of the group [UFO UpDates
List Member, website devoted to the cause] but covertly
representing the interests of another..." [the black government,
who wants to misdirect us so we don't uncover their UFO
secrets]. Salla, in short, is acting like... "a member of the
group in order to secretly disrupt the group's activities from
within the group."

If this is what Brad is getting at, then I have to confess, with
all due respect, that this is way, _way_ outside my paradigm.
Maybe I'm a dupe - I'll always allow for that possibility. But
it just doesn't feel like the right answer. I could go on to
rationalize my thinking on this, but there seems little point,
as I doubt if it would sway anyone with the opposite position.

Now, returning to the other scenario, suggested by the
individual who posted anonymously to my weblog - let's suppose
Michael Salla wishes to study how the additional excreta he has
deposited in the punchbowl/cesspool of the internet diffuses
into modern society, especially into the tiny, tiny circle
comprising "serious ufologists." If so, all I can say is that
I've been in this biz for a quite a while, and I've seen lots of
'floaty unmentionables' come and go. This is just more of the
same - perhaps somewhat 'smarmier' than the average, but still
probably on the bell curve.

Let's suppose we're being studied. If so, that means Dr. Salla
(or maybe some overworked grad student) is reading, right now.
Here, then, is my commentary:

If you're wondering whether this will be kicked around for a
while: Yes, for a while, and then something else will come
along. If you're wondering whether 'fringe elements' will eat it
up: We shall see. They often do. If you're wondering if it will
diffuse it's way into mainstream society, so that soccer moms
and pizza boys are pondering it day and night: I bloody well
doubt it. They have the television, and endless other
distractions, and they have probably been desentized to the
inane by looking at the Weekly World News while standing in line
at the grocery store.

If gold digging is your motive, Dr. Salla, buy yourself a gross
of Maglights and find some lonely widows with spiritual
inclinations and head for the Elysium fields of Scotland to
vector some UFOs - at $2000 a head, payable by MC/VISA/Amex in
advance (not including airfare or accomodations, of course).


Rod Brock

=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:49:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:04:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:12:27 +0100
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:07:52 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:57:37 EDT
>>>Subject: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>>I just recalled that I had read several references wherein it
>>>was suggested and noted that artists were often the target of
>>>abduction. That the only common denominator for abductees was
>>>that the majority were artists of some sort.

>>>If anyone has data on this please let me know.

>>That is simply not so. Every so often some ill-informed or
>>misguided person makes ridiculous cliaims like that, which are
>>not justified by any facts or statistics. At one point Kevin
>>Randle (though he is a serious and respectable researcher)
>>argued - quite falsely in my judgment - that a high percentage of
>>abductees were homosexuals.

>>In my experience and that of every serious colleague, the
>>"aliens" (if that is what they are) have proven to be equal
>>opportunity abductors. No social, educational, racial,
>>intellectual, or other biases.

>But we have already determined, in an exchange on this List a
>couple of years ago, that this is not so, and that there is a
>considerable under-representation of Black people amongst UFO
>abductees, for whatever reason.

John,

Very interesting point.

Perhaps black is a very common color among extra-terrestrial
species, so those on Earth offer little of interest to the
abductors. Perhaps white folks get abducted so much because
we're the odd ones who require study.

Or perhaps "Grays" are considered inferior due to their "white"
ingredient, and they abduct whites to determine if there is a
genetic component preventing them from attaining their "true"
blackness.

Half-joking, but plausible...


Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:54:21 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:07:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:12:27 +0100
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:07:52 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

<snip>

>>In my experience and that of every serious colleague, the
>>"aliens" (if that is what they are) have proven to be equal
>>opportunity abductors. No social, educational, racial,
>>intellectual, or other biases.

>But we have already determined, in an exchange on this List a
>couple of years ago, that this is not so, and that there is a
>considerable under-representation of Black people amongst UFO
>abductees, for whatever reason.


Speak for yourself, John. In my own limited studies, at least
compared to Hopkins and Jacobs, I have encountered and worked
with several Black abductees in the Greater Washington, D.C.,
area. They have included a star college athlete, a middle class
woman, and an inner city Black girl of poor educational
background (but impressively reporting exactly the same sort of
thing).

When you say there is a considerable under-representation of
Blacks, once again there are no hard statistics to justify such
a statement that I am aware of.


 - Dick







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:08:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:10:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


>From: Mary Chapman <alfie107.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:12:07 -0700
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:16:10 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:45:07 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

><snip>

>>Once more you provide not just an answer, but some illumination.

>>Now, your audiences might be pegged as being a little more
>>accepting than the average person, but I think your informal
>>"survey" includes some meaningful information indeed.

>>So, among attendees you get a fairly consistent 10% saying they
>>have seen a UFO as you describe them... and further find that 1%
>>has actually reported their sighting.

>>Taking your example of a lecture with 2000 attendees, that would
>>indicate that 200 have seen, and 20 have reported. Those are
>>sobering numbers. Out of 2000 attendees there are 180 untold UFO
>>stories.

>>Even if one dismisses 90% as misidentified mundane phenomena,
>>that leaves 18 untold stories...per 2000 attendees.

>>It appears that volumes of UFO information have yet to be
>>unearthed, just among the huddled masses.

>>Your comment on "belief questions" finds no dissent with me.

>I, as a normal citizen, have had at least five sightings, and
>only reported one. I was told that it was space garbage, so I
>never bothered to report again, even though each sighting was
>different.

>Therefore, it isn't even a matter of how many _people_ have had
>sightings, but how many _actual_ sightings!? The number may get
>staggering when this figure gets added to the data!


Mary,

Exactly right! If a concerted effort on an offical level were
made to investigate these phenomena... a la MJ-12 or Blue
Book... today, perhaps the response would be over- whelming. I
can imagine that _many_ would come forth who now do not, if they
felt that their experience would be met with interest and
investigatory zeal rather than derision and dismissal.

I'm reminded again of tales of rogue waves... incessantly
dismissed as fable, only to recently be proven real once the
(technologically improved) eyes of true science were brought to
bear.

Now it appears that rogue waves happen so often that it is
amazing that they are not reported more frequently. I don't find
it amazing at all. Like the airline pilot who sees a UFO, the
"smart thing to do" is to shut up about it.

That must change before any meaningful investigation can bear
fruit.

The stories we have heard are compelling. The stories we haven't
heard could very well prove to be life-altering.

Our best hope is to create an environment...this environment...
to invite those "untold stories".

There's still a lot of work to do however...:)


Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

              Re: Team To Study Tunguska To Prove It Was UFO -

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:40:21 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:15:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Team To Study Tunguska To Prove It Was UFO -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:53:14 EDT
>Subject: Team To Study Tunguska To Prove It Was UFO

>Pravda: Team To Study Famed Tungus Event To Prove It Was A UFO

The online 'Pravda', and the former communist relic, 'Pravda',
are two separate entities, I should point out. The online Pravda
is a sensational tabloid. This was established by inquiries made
by Chris Aubeck to two of our Urkrainian Colleagues, Mikhail
Gershtein, and Vladimir Rubtsov. That the online Pravda should
focus in on a story of this sort is not surprising.

>This story states that a scientific team lit out for Tungus
>last week to gather 'evidences' that the famed blast was not
>caused  by a meteorite but a UFO.

Morons. Make a sensational hypothesis completely opposed to the
body of evidence gathered through serious scientific research
over the last century or so, and go tramping out to the Tungusk
to "prove" that "hypothesis." Probability of claims of success:
High. Probability of actual success: Unknown. Probably zero.

>This ought to be fun to keep an eye on.

Naw. Bring me a bucket. <:-O[r.a.l.p.h.]

>With luck they'll find the impact site,

There was no impact site. The object seems to have "airburst."
This is not uncommon for meteors, in general; this was just a
very massive body, which accounts for the high energy yield and
the resulting widespread destruction.

>some debris

meaning whatever they care to shove in a baggy and call
"possible flying saucer debris," for reasons opaque to most
sentient beings.

>then turn it into a tourist attraction.

<LOL> A fortnight in deepest Siberia, being preyed on by
mosquitoes as big as yer head, while suffering from trench-foot,
and living off trail rations!


Rod Brock

=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                     Re: Secrecy News -- 07/28/04 - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:36:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:17:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Secrecy News -- 07/28/04 - King


>From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:57:03 -0400
>Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/28/04

<snip>

>SECRECY "PROBLEMATIZED" IN CRITICAL INQUIRY

>Critical Inquiry, a journal published by the University of
>Chicago, is perhaps the preeminent academic venue for the
>pursuit of "theory," which means something like the
>conceptualization and analysis of cultural, literary and other
>problems.  Theory is by definition abstract and is generally one
>or more steps removed from everyday life and practical politics.

>So it is noteworthy that government secrecy is the subject of a
>paper in the forthcoming issue of the journal.

>Author Peter Galison, a distinguished historian of science at
>Harvard, reviews recent classification practices and then asks
>what epistemological assumptions are implicit in the act of
>censoring, or classifying, particular items of information.  The
>classifier, he suggests, relies on a discredited "atomic" theory
>of knowledge.

>"Contra the logical positivists and their allies, it is
>precisely not possible to reduce meaningful language to discrete
>enunciations. Communication -- at least meaningful, verifiable
>communication -- cannot be rendered into a sequence of protocol
>statements. But such a conception of knowledge is exactly what
>lies behind the classifiers' imaginary," he writes.

>"At the root of this theory of punctiform knowledge excision
>stands a fundamental instability."

>Dig it.


<snip>

Ok...that rips it. I _have_ to get me a "Punctiform Knowledge
Excision THIS!!!" T-shirt... (ahem)


Kyle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                       The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:51:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:19:39 -0400
Subject: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?


List,

If there was one UFO photo, out of the thousands, which one
would it be that you would put foward as the nearest to an
unexplained, structured object unknown to this earth?


Roy








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                          Re: Cose-Up Photos - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:58:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:21:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Cose-Up Photos - Hale


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:35:51 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>Yes, I was just using my common sense and what I've learned by
>our photographic field work which tells me how truly anomalous
>UFOs present photographically. Photographed models and
>airbrushed images never have what it takes.


Mr Stanford,

Can you tell me if your book, Look Up, is still in publication?

I would like to read a copy of it, can you point me to one?


Regards,

Roy








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:04:21 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:23:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Boone


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:45:07 -0300
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:52:58 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

><snip>

>>Does anyone have something that could be called a good statistic
>>on the percentage of the world population... and more
>>specifically the US... has actually stated that they have seen a
>>UFO... something they believe couldn't have been from "around
>>here"?

>I have checked many hundreds of lecture audiences - some as big
>as 2,000... colleges, professional groups etc at the end of my
>"Flying Saucers ARE Real!" lectures.

>"How many here believe they have seen what I would describe as a
>flying saucer, as I described earlier?. I count out loud.
>Typically it is 10% of the people present. Then I ask "How many
>of you have reported what you have seen?" Typically 10% of the
>10%. Then I ask how many of the small group were in the military
>at the time and if they want to tell the rest of us about it.
>Get some great stories and wonderful lines like "I can't ; they
>told me not to say anything." or "They took my pictures" etc.

>>I find stats on those who believe that UFOs exist all over the
>>place, but while that seems to be a valuable statistic to a
>>sociologist, it seems equally worthless in any scientific UFO
>>context.

>>And I'm also very weary of the "message from the space
>>brothers" testimony. While I am unable to label it false, lest
>>I incur anywrath should they be right, it eludes my grasp due
>>to the gargantuan grain of salt accompanying it. Alas, my
>>prejudice revealed.

>Belief questions require a better word than UFO. In one
>classroom of 100 students asked to respond with their eyes
>closed, 80% said they thought most people didn't think any UFOs
>were ET Spacecraft, whereas 80% of the group did think some
>were.....


Once again Mr. Friedman saves the day.

I'm reading this post and I get to the 'military' personell who
can't disclose something.

I must know a dozen or two bona fide military who've told me to
my face they couldn't talk about the UFO issue because of some
oath, agreement, threat of prosecution and at best, " You'll
find out on a need to know basis."

If we were looking for 'proof' of a coverup and conspiracy
that's it in a nutshell. Case closed, put a fork in it.

It reminded me of Mr. Friedman's lectures. He says during his
lectures of a 'Cosmic Watergate'. Guess what? There's proof for
that in spades.

If we all combined the number of interviewees who are bona fide
military, we'd win this argument hands down.

So where do we stand? In the court of public opinion we win, if
we took our collected evidence to a court of law we'd win, in a
scientific debate we'd lose? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I suggest everyone buy extra copies of Mr. Friedman's DVDs and
just show them to your interviewees 'after' they've given you
their accounts, signed the affidavits etc. ( to avoid being
accused of 'suggestion' and 'contamination' ). Just get extra
copies to send out to groups and do some footwork. In his
lectures he not only points out the timeline but the names of
folks who held or still hold government posts whom we can easily
in most cases check to see if valid. Many of these names are
famous in their own right.

Proof of a conspiracy? Noooo doubt.


Best,

Greg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

               Re: Detecting UFOs Through The Use Of 'Passive'

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:41:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:27:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Detecting UFOs Through The Use Of 'Passive'


>From: Peter B. Davenport - National UFO Reporting Center <director.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:19:45 -0700
>Subject: Detecting UFOs Through The Use Of 'Passive' Radar


>I have posted to the NUFORC website the paper I wrote for the
>MUFON Symposium in Denver earlier this month. It pertains to the
>remote detection of UFOs through the use of 'passive' radar.

>In addition, I copy below some links to URLs, which discuss the
>issue of passive radar:

>http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/radar_stealth_010614.html
>http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_42/b3854113.htm
>http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/jaws/sentry.pdf
>http://rrsl.ee.washington.edu/
>http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,16762,00.html
>http://www.crows.org/Events/2003/PCR/general.htm
>http://www.crows.org/Events/2003/PCR/PCR03_Agenda.pdf
>http://www.ifp.uiuc.edu/~smherman/darpa/
>http://www.zilker.net/~crossley/NAVSPASUR/

>If my thesis is correct, the application of 'passive' radar will
>allow us to resolve the issue of whether UFOs visit our planet.

>I have been in touch with the University of Washington
>professor, who has operated a 'passive' radar system since 1998,
>and we are working toward building a system that will be
>tailored to detect satellites, space debris, and other targets
>within several hundred miles of Earth.

>I invite your comments.


A fabulous idea far beyond any success/failure measure.....

SETI represents the "alternative" science-driven ETH group to
the one best represented in this forum. SETI enjoys an air of
legitimacy for several reasons. The high-tech equipment they
employ, the elegant simplicity of pointing an ear to the sky
and... waiting... for a signal from "them". However improbable
the SETI model may be, it enjoys great acclaim and admiration
from the masses.

If "our" kind of ufology were provided a medium for involving
average citizens in the search for UFOs, using existing
equipment, the popular response could be overwhelming.

A different sort of "SETI.nul". Who would have imagined ITS
popularity?

I see this as a true populist action. A true scientific endeavor
worthy of outside attention, and likely to get it.

Bravo!! And the lowly cell phone proves once again its value. :)


Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                  Return to Magonia Project Website Updated

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:07:30 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:31:49 -0400
Subject: Return to Magonia Project Website Updated


UFO related clippings from 1951 and 1952 are now online.

http://embark.to/magonia


Rod Brock


=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                        Re: Apollo 16 Film - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:18:47 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:33:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Apollo 16 Film - Balaskas


>From: James Oberg <joberg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:28:20 -0600
>Subject: Re: Apollo 16 Film - Oberg

<snip>

>Late last month there was a high level of message traffic about
>a JSE article concerning the Apollo-16 video with an anomalous
>image, and there was considerable speculation - prior to anyone
>actually seeing the article, apparently - about what was claimed
>in it, and what was proved.

>Through the generosity of two colleagues I obtained a copy of
>that article and posted my comments on February 26, here:

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/feb/m26-007.shtml

<snip>

>I hope in coming days others will be able to examine the actual
>article, compare it with my comments, and resume the discussion
>at a much more productive level.


Hi Jim!

Thanks to a letter from U.S. Congressman Dutch Ruppersberger of
Maryland to NASA regarding the Apollo 16 UFO film footage, we
now have an official explanation for this anomalous image that
looks like a domed flying saucer in the immediate vicinity of
the Moon.

Responding to a request from Congress, Gregory Byrne, leader of
the Image Science and Analysis Group at Johnson Space Center
with five others closely examined the actual Apollo 16 film and
they concluded that this UFO was actually a floodlight that was
attached to the Command Module by a boom that was hidden in the
shadows.

According to the article 'The Truth Is Out There' written by
Beth Dickey that appears on page 11 of the August/September 2004
issue of 'Air&Space Smithsonian', this group also searched
NASA's archives from other missions and found similar images. Do
these "similar images" also look like domed flying saucers and
could all these also be explained as spacecraft floodlights used
for space walks and other EVAs?

Unless we can get to read the report, if any, by this group of
NASA experts, we should not be quick to disregard all the
different explanations that others, including yourself and
Hiroshi Nakamura previously published and later proposed on UFO
UpDates or to us by private e-mails. Any chance of obtaining a
copy of this report from JSC in Houston and make it available to
ufologists and space researchers?


Nick Balaskas








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:43:39 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:36:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Balaskas


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:58:59 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:35:08 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>>To my knowledge, there is not a single case where two or more
>>unrelated people captured either close-up or mid-range photos of
>>the same UFO on approximately the same time and day but from
>>different locations. Even at public gatherings such as airshows
>>and sporting events where nearly everyone has a camera, there is
>>not a single case of a close-up or mid-range photos of the same
>>UFO. This fact is amazing in itself considering nearly everyone
>>has seen a UFO! Featureless distant lights or blobs, such as the
>>multiple UFOs in the sky over Mexico that behaved like a flock
>>of seagulls, captured by many on video are more common but
>>easily explained as IFOs.

>In Gulf Breeze (gulp!) from Nov 1990 through July 1992 there
>were about 170 sightings of "bubba" recorded by numerous
>witnesses. In many of these sightings there were multiple
>cameras and videocameras, sometimes from widely separated (miles
>apart) locations, which allowed for triangulation. The most
>interesting recorded phenomena were rings of light or structured
>light images, not just dots. During the evening of Sept 16,
>1991, I was a witness to a ring of lights that appeared in the
>sky for about 70 seconds. I didn't call the guys in white coats
>to come and take me away (ho ho...ha ha) because there were
>about 30 other people and the ring was photographed (telephoto
>lens) and videotaped (zoomed in and out) and the comments by
>witnesses were recorded during the sighting (including my own).
>A crude triangulation suggested a distance of several thousand
>feet to a mile or so, implying some size (many feet to tens of
>feet) of the ring. This is all described at:

>http://brumac.8k.com

>Scroll down to "Red Bubba comes to Gulf Breeze". This is not as
>good as a daytime close up photo of a craft in full detail, but
>certainly something was there that was unusual.

Hi Bruce!

Even though Ed Walters of Gulf Breeze, Florida and Billy Meier
of Switzerland are among the very few "repeaters" that have
taken numerous close-up and mid-range photos of UFOs over long
periods of time, there are _no_ multiple pictures of the same
UFO incidents taken by others, including neighbours or friends
who were also present and claimed to have had the same close
encounters with structured craft at close range.

As for pictures of suspicious distant spots or star-like objects
in the sky taken by multiple witnesses at approximately the same
times and from the same geographic locations, these are common
but there remains many questions such as whether it was the same
object or UFO that was photographed. Even if one or more people
were to snap a picture of a distant UFO in the sky over Gulf
Breeze on the same day and time that Ed Walters claimed to have
had a close encounter, this too would not be compelling evidence
of anything out of the ordinary.

Incredible close-up and mid-range photos of structured UFOs
continue to be taken, including some from Marmora, Ontario a few
years ago that reminded us of Ed Walter's (gulp!) "Bubba". A
similar close-up UFO sighting/abduction took place under the
same misty conditions at a park east of Marmora in nearby
Actinolite (a radiating mineral common to this area), Ontario
back in 1973. Although ever year thousands of pilgrims visit a
shrine to the Blessed Virgin Mary in Marmora where many of the
faithful claim to see visions of things in the sky or to have
experienced the Fatima-like "Miracle of the Sun", close-up and
mid-range pictures of UFOs by mutiple witnesses are lacking here
too.

Just how should ufology deal with incredible close-up photos of
UFOs that are always taken by one individual or the pictures by
other individuals, often from the same country or region of the
world, whose UFOs look very different to the UFOs in the
pictures taken by the other repeaters?


Nick Balaskas







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                  Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Ratsch

From: Donald Ratsch <sts48.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:03:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:39:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack - Ratsch


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:59:21 -0400
>Subject: Re: Bible Predicts Alien Attack

>>From: Donald Ratsch <sts48.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:58:58 -0400
>>Subject: Bible Predicts Alien Attack

>>Bible Predicts Alien Attack

><snip>

>>Could the 1991 NASA STS-48 Starwars footage be a precursor to
>>Daniel 8:9,10?

>>Some UFO enthusiasts interpret the STS-48 footage (that was
>>shown on "Sightings", "Hardcopy", "Encounters", "The Larry King
>>Show", etc) as several alien spacecraft being fired on by U.S.
>>Starwars technology (probably Brilliant Pebbles) but missed.

>"Brilliant Pebbles" was a concept - not an actual operational
>system - for defense against ballistic missiles. The "pebbles"
>were intended to be small rocket powered homing devices that
>would to smash into a missile. "Not operational" means that
>there is no "pebbles" system in space.

>Other "enthusiasts" have claimed that the STS-48 "streaks light"
>that move rapidly in the direction of one of the objects (that
>changed direction and seemed to head away from the earth) were
>particle beams from particle beam weapons. This suggestion makes
>no sense when one considers that the particles in particle beams
>(a) cannot be seen in space (no atmosphere to glow) and (b)
>travel at the speed of light (nearly) and would go so fast they
>couldn't be recorded in several frames of a video (they
>particules would go through the field of view in less than one
>frame time).

>>Strangely, in 1991 the Alpha High Energy Laser (HEL) death-ray
>>demonstrated megawatt class power levels in a low pressure, space
>>operation environment:

>>http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/sbl.htm

>>the same year as the STS-48 incident, 1991.

>Interesting coincidence... but so what? The "Alpha" laser
>operated in a low pressure (much higher than space) chamber that
>required a supporting installation larger than a football field.
>Also, the beam was completely contained inside the buildings
>that housed the laser. The FAS site listed above has a lot of
>pretty pictures... but that's all they are.

>The space based laser program has been largely shelved for the
>last 5 years. There is no laser weapon (high power laser) in
>space.

Well, far be it from me to argue with Dr Maccabee on space
weapons like the H.e.l. Laser. But I am sure that the U.S. is
researching and developing the Electromagnetic Pulse weapon or
some other exotic space weapon via some black project. The
Russians are certainly not sitting on their thumbs.

If there are aliens and disc ET craft coming into our atmosphere
as most of us believe, then it can't be assumed that all of them
are benign. True they haven't attacked earth, like in theWar of
the Worlds yet although there have been incidences that could be
interpreted as hostile like the Fort Itaipu case.

Since there are trillions of planets in billions of solar
systems in our galaxy and others, there undoubtedly are many
visitors yet to explore here that have never been here before,
thus more soil sampling. Can anyone guarantee that all of them
will be benevolent?







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Webre

From: Alfred Webre <EcoRadio.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 02:04:42 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:45:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Webre


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:47:38 +0000
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races


>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:33:20 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Moderator

>Many List submissions from subcribers arrive here
>minus a name before the <name.nul> in the 'From: '.
>In those cases I add the name - often from memory.

>In the case of:

>>From: Alfred Webre <Exopolitics <exopolitics.nul>
>>To: media.nul
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>which I posted Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:53:47 -0400 - and relying on
>my memory - I inserted Alfred Webre's name in the header.

>My memory failed me.

>The submission _actually_ came from Dr. Michael Salla.

>My apologies to Alfred Webre, Michael Salla and the
>List for not verifying who the address actually belonged to.

>Any future responses sent to the List will have the correction
>made.

>Errol Bruce-Knapp
>Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto


>Errol,

>Very interesting! Now I wonder what Alfred Webre thinks about
>the fact, as he himself reported it to the List, that Salla
>explicitly denied sending the post.  Curioser and curioser when
>it comes to Salla's credibility.

>- Dick



Dear List - I am very grateful to Errol for his clarification.

Here is Dr. Michael Salla's email to me: "As far as the UFO
updates message from Errol is concerned, I'm glad it resolved
itself well, and was only an innocent case of mistaken identity.
I'm sure it will happen from time to time so we'll just have to
educate the public about our respective websites."

Dr. Michael Salla's website is:

http://www.exopolitics.org

My website is:

Exopolitics.com

Politics, Government and Law in the Universe. It is located at:

http://www.exopolitics.com

The "exopolitics" model may be helpful in approaching many of
the issues those researchers who are interested in the off-
planet cultures (OPC) question may have.  The exopolitics model
functionally maps the operation of politics, government and law
in an intelligent Universe, and provides an operational bridge
between models of terrestrial politics, government and law, and
the larger models of politics, government and law in Universe
society.  Exopolitics is an emerging inter-disciplinary field,
and draws on many legitimate sources.

Exopolitics.com is a resource site for the exopolitics model.
Contents include: Politics, Government, and Law in the Universe
- Exopolitics Live Radio - Exopolitics TV - Exopolitics News -
 Exoarchaeology/Exobiology News - Exopolitics Features -
 Introduction to Exopolitics - Exopolitics Resources

Here, for example, is an excerpt from article posted on
Exopolitics.com today, in our Exoarchaeology/Exobiology section:

'Directed Panspermia' suggests that life may be distributed by
an advanced extraterrestrial civilization. Crick and Orgel
argued that DNA encapsulated within small grains could be fired
in all directions by such a civilization in order to spread life
within the universe. Their abstract in the 1973 Icarus paper
reads:

"It now seems unlikely that extraterrestrial living organisms
could have reached the earth either as spores driven by the
radiation pressure from another star or as living organisms
imbedded in a meteorite. As an alternative to these nineteenth-
century mechanisms, we have considered Directed Panspermia, the
theory that organisms were deliberately transmitted to the earth
by intelligent beings on another planet. We conclude that it is
possible that life reached the earth in this way, but that the
scientific evidence is inadequate at the present time to say
anything about the probability. We draw attention to the kinds
of evidence that might throw additional light on the topic."

From, Search for Life in the Universe: Panspermia hypothesis
"Francis Crick Remembered"
Linked at Exopolitics.com/
http://www.exopolitics.com
Exoarchaeology/Exobiology

Exopolitics Radio: We now have Exopolitics Live Radio, based
at CFRO 102.7 FM in Vancouver, B.C., which you can listen to
live on the Internet at www.coopradio.org. Tune into
Exopoltics.com for program listings.

Hope you will visit Exopolitics.com often,


Alfred Webre, JD, MEd
Exopolitics.com
Vancouver, B.C.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:00:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:47:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:54:18 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:53:06 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:52:58 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>>One indicator is that the Condon Committee contractor survey
>>found that only 13% of those polled would report their sighting
>>to anyone. This might mean we have to apply a magnification
>>factor of about 8x to the number of reports we have, to estimate
>>the total number when including those that were not reported.
>>However this polling statistic is heavily influenced by the
>>exact wording of the question, and issues such as strangeness
>>level. I think that up to a point the more "strange" the
>>sighting the _more_ likely it will be reported, because the
>>strangeness impels the observer to report but only up to a
>>certain point where this effect reverses and the UFO event is so
>>strange that it won't be reported because of the strangeness
>>factor itself (e.g., probably most CE III entity cases are not
>>reported). We might actually have, therefore, most of the
>>landing and simple CE I cases and Daylight Discs, but not most
>>lights in the sky and entity cases at opposite ends of the
>>strangeness spectrum. The lights in the sky being too trivial to
>>report and the entities too shocking and discrediting to report.
>>It would be nice to have quantitative data to back up these
>>impressions but I know of no studies realistically attempting
>>it.


>Brad,

>Very thorough analysis. I'll read your articles on this subject
>with interest.

>Your numbers seem to support Stan's more informal survey, or at
>least they do not argue.

<snip>


Kyle,

Yes, Stan mentioned a 10% reporting rate (90% of his audioences
said they would not report). However, his audiences are self-
selected to be interested in the UFO subject so that biases the
sample in ways that just cannot be extended to the whole
population, and just cannot be relied upon in that way. And
these might be IFO's in an unknown number of cases, or just
memory errors. There is a lot to be said for a case to be
reported immediately after it occurs.

Vallee's "hilltop" effect is what I am referring to, where the
reporting rate increases as the type of UFO case increases in
strangeness, but only up to a point, and then it gets too
strange to report. Unfortunately I think neither Vallee or I or
anyone else has any stats to back it up, it's just an impression
from our experience with the UFO data and in investigating
cases.


Brad







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

             Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:07:49 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:49:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Sparks


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:15:07 -0500
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:33:42 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:09:46 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

<snip>

>>Suppose you were the government and you wanted to stop UFO
>>researchers from getting at your UFO secrets, whatever they
>>were. What would you do? Seriously, you can't stop them by
>>killing them all, not even the most rabid conspiracy theorist
>>thinks that. So what would you do? Would you issue "orders" to
>>UFO researchers saying "This is the U.S. Government: You are
>>hereby ordered to cease and desist all efforts to seek our UFO
>>secrets"??? That very action of issuing provocative orders
>>publicly would reveal the very thing you were trying to conceal
>>-- the existence of UFO secrets covered up by the US Government.

>>So what would you do?

>>Have you ever heard of the concept of the "agent provocateur"?
>>If you research the history and the definitions (the
>>dictionaries are often much narrower than the actual history of
>>use of such agents) the "agent provocateur" is:

>>Agent Provocateur:

>>"Someone who intentionally encourages people working against a
>>government to do something incriminating or discrediting."

>>Any ideas how that could apply within the UFO community?

>>Would an "agent provocateur" usually have good credentials, or
>>would he be an obvious lunatic with little or no credentials or
>>no respectable background?


>Brad,

>Good points.

>But aren't we _all_ agents provocateur in this forum? Would not
>all of us encourage a military man with "real data" to divulge
>it in contradiction of his sworn oath not to? Could not _all_ of
>us find a justification for such disclosure even knowing that it
>is a violation of federal law? I certainly could... and would.

>We are all in possession of various "credentials". As I've said
>before, Stanton Friedman is a scientist in Physics. In the UFO
>field he is an advocate. He might just as well be a garbage man.
>His credentials as a physicist are only marginally pertinent to
>his stature as a UFO advocate.
<snip>

Kyle,

Well as you indicate in what I snipped out this isn't exactly
what I meant by "agent provocateur" in the UFO community. You
are taking it in the sense of someone provoking people to
stimulate thinking in a good way. I am referring to those who
pose as credible people who associate and mix the UFO community
then spout off discrediting nonsense so that the whole UFO
community is perceived as discredited.

Stan may be playing down his physicist background because of
years of being disparaged as the "nuts and bolts" man in UFO
research.


Brad







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

              Re: Congrats To UFO Magazine & Platinum Studios -

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:17:08 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:50:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Congrats To UFO Magazine & Platinum Studios -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:15:30 EDT
>Subject: Congrats To UFO Magazine & Platinum Studios

>http://platinumstudios.com/press/ufomag_hr_061804.php

>Congrats to the folks at UFO Magazine.

>Glad you guys worked something out.

>Will be looking forward to what shakes from this
>tree!


Lets hope they recompense the folk who were abducted by ET or
'messed with' by Military and suffered to give the Magazine
information.


Col

http://www.colsweb.com/webcam/pic/6789texjoe6.htm








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                           Any Help For S.E.F.I.?

From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:30:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:55:00 -0400
Subject: Any Help For S.E.F.I.?


NEWS

"What evidence is there for the existence of other intelligence
in the universe?"

The savants of S.E.F.I (Search for Extra-Formic Intelligence)
unanimously agree the answer is "NONE".

For not one provable record has ever been found of the mythical
"giant descending boot" or "boiling water from the sky" (tho'
some claim such far-fetched cataclysms _would_ leave few
survivors).

Rigorous antian science (i.e that accepted by at least a
thousand nests for at least ten years) decided the question. For
none of the crazy rumors met with _that_ requirement.

Accordingly, any ants repeating those rumors will be tried by
the "Un-Antian Activities Commission" and could be found guilty
of working for the "Weevil Empire" (i.e. any other hives or
nests with nectar _we_ want). [endquote]

Could any Listian find a "scientific" way of enlightening
S.E.F.I.?

[this question provoked by first few pages of "Is Anyone Out
There? The Scientific Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence"
- Frank Drake, Dava Sobel]

Cheers

Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                        Re: Varginha Again - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:43:39 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:00:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Bourdais


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:01:49 +0000
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:50:03 +0200
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:41:45 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

<snip>

>>BTW, talking of bad cases, I recommend that you take out of your
>>excellent book "The UFO Evidence" the Ummo case, which is known
>>worldwide to be a hoax. The authors of the fake landing of
>>Alluche (1966) and of the fake pictures of San Jose de Valdeiras
>>(1967) were unmasked long ago by spanish ufologists.

>Where in The UFO Evidence do you see anything about the Ummo
>case? It's certainly not in either volume to my knowledge, at
>least in any positive way, since it is a well-known hoax as you
>say.

>As for Alluche (1966) if yoiu look at my footnotes the case was
>reported by Ballester-Olmos and attributed to him. If it was
>later discredited, that information did not reach me or anyone
>else that I know, and that is simply a sign of poor
>communications among UFOlogists.


Dick,

Most Spanish ufologists, including Ballester-Olmos, will confirm
to you that the Alluche alleged landing traces were hoaxed by
two men, who have been exposed and have admitted their hoax,
Jordan Pena and Ortuno.

I've said that on this List more than once.

Let me quote my own message of October 9, 2002. In it, I gave
the link where the whole story has been told very clearly by
Manuel Carballal, in a text called, The Ummo Affaire: Sects,
Saucers, Sex and Secret Services.

It is on the Inexplicata web site:

http://www.inexplicata.com/samizdat/winter97/ummo_affaire.html

>And I don't even know the case San Jose de Valdeiras (1967).
> The only 1967 photo case I report is Jan. 24, Yorba Linda,
>California.

>What version of The UFO Evidence are you reading?

Yes, I made a mistake. You did mention Alluche, in The UFO
Evidence 2001 edition, page 236, in the list of physical trace
cases, at the right date of February 6, 1966. But you did not
mention the alleged photographs of San Jose de Valderas (sorry:
not Valdeiras) of June 1st, 1967, which were hoaxed by the same
people.


Gildas







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                         Re: Varginha Again - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:51:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:04:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Hatch


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:01:49 +0000
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:50:03 +0200
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

<snip>

>>BTW, talking of bad cases, I recommend that you take out of your
>>excellent book "The UFO Evidence" the Ummo case, which is known
>>worldwide to be a hoax. The authors of the fake landing of
>>Alluche (1966) and of the fake pictures of San Jose de Valdeiras
>>(1967) were unmasked long ago by spanish ufologists.


>Gildas,

>Where in The UFO Evidence do you see anything about the Ummo
>case? It's certainly not in either volume to my knowledge, at
>least in any positive way, since it is a well-known hoax as you
>say.

>As for Alluche (1966) if yoiu look at my footnotes the case was
>reported by Ballester-Olmos and attributed to him. If it was
>later discredited, that information did not reach me or anyone
>else that I know, and that is simply a sign of poor
>communications among UFOlogists.

>And I don't even know the case San Jose de Valdeiras (1967).
>The only 1967 photo case I report is Jan. 24, Yorba Linda,
>California.

>What version of The UFO Evidence are you reading?

> - Dick

> P.S. Maybe you are making a joke?


Hello Richard, Gildas:

I have both the Aluche (note spelling) and Valderas (ditto)
cases on this list of discredited sightings:

http://www.larryhatch.net/DISCRED.html

Both were thoroughly trashed.  For Aluche, I have:

" 1966/02/06 ALUCHE, Spain:  Disk lands, traces left:
 Part of complex and long running UMMO Hoax, finally
 admitted by parapsychologist Jordan Pena in 1992
 after being exposed in 1988.
 /J.J. Montejo & Carles Berch=E9 via Edoardo Russo "

I list San Jose de Valderas simply as Valderas:

" 1967/06/01 VALDERAS, Spain: Fake fotos of saucer
 on 3 legs. LDLN #166 + FSR June'69++ (who published
 the story). Part of complex UMMO Hoax publicly
 admitted by psychologist Jordan Pena, 1992.
 Credits: Montejo & Berch=E9 via Edoardo Russo
 and V-J Ballester Olmos. "

What I see happening is this: Some prankster in Spain gets in
the papers with a sensational but bogus sighting. LDLN, FSR and
others publish the story. Months/years later, Spanish
investigators methodically find telling holes in it. Somehow,
that final word does not seem to get out.

This leaves me and others with Spanish cases on the books that
should have never been entered in the first place.

Aluche and Valderas I knew about. Its all the others that
concern me now. I have just begun to look thru an important
catalog which is a work in progress there, more on that later.
My Spanish totals could go up or down for all I know.

I am also slowly going thru Richard Hall's excellent new book
Alien Invasion of Human Fantasy (2004 FUFOR) which I am _sure_
will add new cases.

This is a ton of work, thus my silence. If I go completely mute
for 2 days, its because my dial-up ISP kicked me off for using
too many hours in July.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









                         The UFO UpDates Archive
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:54:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:08:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Allan


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:53:18 -0300
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:07:18 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>I agree with you that this field would be improved by having a
>>set of fundamental understood ideas about the origin,
>>technology, and motives.

<snip>

>>I can imagine a "think-tank" style institute... how about
>>ITISAUFO... Institute for Technical Investigation and Scientific
>>Analysis of UFOs. A "Brookings Institute" for UFO studies.

>>I fear you are right in thinking that it would fall by bickering
>>and in-fighting. It's not a money issue.

>Sounds to me like work statements for Operation Majestic 12:

>1. Evaluate wreckage seeking understanding and new knowledge
>about materials, technological capabaility of devices, etc.
>These data would be classified

What for?

>2. Collect and evaluate instrumental data on flight behavior
>including acceleration, change in em signatures as a function of
>changes in direction.etc.These data would be classified.

Again, what for?

>3. Collect and evaluate data from physical trace cases. check on
>means for effecting soil etc. - again in secret.

Still operating in secret after 57 years? Why?

>4. Theoretical evaluation putting 1, 2, 3 together.

But still in secret I presume.

>5. Evaluation of alien behavior in abductions and in probable
>events such as the April 1964 landing at Holloman, and in cases
>such as the Cuban MIG case and other destructions of attacking
>aircraft such as in 1952. When did they destroy.. after what
>actions on our part?

>Ought to keep a nice Black program busy for a long time.

Very black indeed by now.

>Do note my latest MJ-12 paper at:

>http://www.stanfriedman.com


I have duly noted this paper.

Not hearing the Friedman/Shostak debate I assume that Stan kept
MJ-12 out of it (very wise man).

I have examined Stan's latest MJ-12 paper of April 2004. This
contains, among other things, repeats of his earlier paper in
December 2002 where he reviews Randle's book "Case MJ-12....."

STF is still convinced the three original MJ-12 papers are
genuine, even if the later ones are obvious fakes. I am utterly
baffled by his treatment of the Truman-Forrestal memo of Sept
24, 1947.

>From his two papers above, his conclusions on the T-F memo
may be summarised thus:

1. The numeric part of the date, "24, 1947." is offset a little.
Agreed. This presents Stan with an awkward dilemma. He concludes
that this part was added later by someone. Agreed. There is also
a period (full stop) after the date. It was not Truman's
practice to put a period after a date, but it was Bush's
practice. Therefore, says Stan, Bush must have seen the letter
before it was sent to Forrestal, and added the numeric part
himself , with the period, thus explaining why the two parts of
the date are not quite lined up. Truman, or his secretary, typed
the "September", whilst Bush, or his secretary, added the "24,
1947".

Is this really credible? Is a date ever (even in official
circles) split in this way, by different people?

Or is it Stan's ingenious way round a very awkward dilemma?

He then says the document cannot be a forgery because no forger
would ever use two typewriters in one memo. Quite right. He
wouldn't and didn't.

2. Truman's signature. Stan first refuses to admit it is
identical, as far as the eye can see, to one on a genuine Truman
memo written to Bush on Oct.1, 1947. (It was Stan who first drew
attention to the fact that one "matched" the other in an IUR
article in 1988. Had he kept his mouth shut, the genuine Truman-
Bush memo would most certainly never have been found).

He now says the original T-F memo was signed but none of the
carbon copies were. This is entirely possible. However, Stan
tells us that because Forrestal had died in 1949 his (original)
was apparently lost. By 1952 Hillenkoetter thought Ike would
like to see a signed executive order from president Truman to go
with the briefing he (Hillenkoetter) was preparing for Ike in
November 1952. But the original, signed, T-F memo was nowhere to
be found. This does not worry Stan, who proposes that, in order
to fill this void, Hillenkoetter, or possibly W.Bedell Smith,
asked the CIA to get hold of a Truman signature somehow. The CIA
then decided to lift Truman's signature from the genuine Bush
memo of Oct 1, 1947 and copy it onto the unsigned carbon copy of
the Sept 24, 1947 T-F memo before Hillenkoetter passed it to Ike
in the notorious Nov '52 briefing paper!! He says "the CIA would
have its disinformation people transfer it".

(I wonder what Truman's reaction would be had he discovered that
some smart guy in the CIA had, without permission, transferred
his signature from one document to another! Remember Truman was
still President at this time.)

According to STF, this accounts for the two signatures being
(almost) identical.

Does anyone follow all this? A trifle confusing perhaps? More
important: Is such a scenario, once again, really credible ?

In my view it belongs in the world of pure fantasy.

Anyone wanting to know how the "September 24, 1947" date was
actually composed can look at Moore & Shandera's "The MJ-12
Documents, An Analytical Report", p.53 . The forger simply
lifted the numeric part of the date on document D and pasted it
onto C, offsetting it very slightly against "September".

Hence only one typewriter was used, not two.

As to why the forger needed to split the date like this, people
can work this out for themselves, if they are still interested.

Finally:

Regarding "Linguistics", STF omits to tell readers that
Dr Roger Wescott (who was chosen to do the analysis
because of his known pro-UFO beliefs) later
changed his mind about endorsing the Hillenkoetter briefing.
I have his letter to researchers on this.

"What the public doesn't know, I wont tell them".





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:59:06 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:33:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:41:16 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:54:29 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:10:56 -0500
>>>Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:02:31 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark


>Hi, Brad,

>I believe that sometimes you are deaf to the way you may sound
>to others. I'm sure that is true of all of us at one time or
>another. I stated, and continued to feel, that the tone of your
>original communication was sweeping and unfair; the points you
>made - many of them good ones - would have been more effectively
>communicated if you had not written so tendentiously.We will
>simply agree to disagree on that point and let it rest, I hope.

Hi Jerry,

I don't think it is fair that I should have to self-censor
myself to word things in such an butt-kissing way that it is
utterly dull, and in any case I think what I wrote was rather
dull and technical, dealing with scientific methodological
issues hardly warranting the opprobrium I got. We will have to
agree to disagree on this and I will remain as puzzled as ever.
If my criticism was too "sweeping" it is simple enough to quote
someone in the UFO community who has put forward some pro-ETH
modeling that improves upon SETI's offerings that were done in
an effort to refute both ETH and UFO reality. As I say Stan
Friedman has countered the SETI criticism but no one in the UFO
world so far as I know has done some "positive campaigning"
instead of just "negative campaigning" against SETI. Jacques
Vallee put forward some numbers in rough modeling of ETH in his
5 arguments against ETH. That's about it. I would love to see
more, that is continually built upon. But I hope that it doesn't
all turn on the question of whether it has a pro-ETH or anti-ETH
result. Objective scholars should be able to report negative
findings on ETH if that is what they turn out to be. And
negative findings could turn positive with more work (look at
SETI arguments, with improvements they could be turned pro-ETH).

>I have too many other things to do than to get involved in a
>long discourse on the subject of ufology and the ETH, though
>again I refer interested persons to the entry on the subject in
>The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed. I have too many other
>responsibilities and too little time to devote to extended
>discussion or debate at the moment.

<snip>

I could say the same thing having read this just after returning
from a scientific meeting at UCLA, and chuckling at how UFO
research is never going to get anywhere if we cannot even agree
on working to improve its methodology, instead of defending the
status quo. This is one good reason I am "outta here" and
working in a field with breakthroughs not roadblocks. These
postings are spare time reflections while I am still thinking
about the UFO subject, something that may change very soon
(months though, not days or weeks).

>Since the 1960s, as historians of the subject and more-than-
>casual observers know well, ufology and the ETH have hardly
>been synonymous. They are synonymous only in outsiders' - and
>usually unsympathetic outsiders' - representation of what
>ufologists think and do. One can read far more about
>ufologists' supposed obsession with the ETH in debunking (and
>ridicule-laced) publications such as Magonia and Skeptical
>Inquirer than in actual UFO literature. Before the likes of
>Swords and Ashpole, consequential writing within our field, with
>the honorable exception of Stan Friedman's, had become scarce.
>Even now, ETH writing in the published literature is rare. I
>exclude contactee and Dark Side mythology from the just-stated,
>obviously.

Here we go again with the extreme empiricism. Are you saying
that any theoretical work on UFO's is now "rare" because it is
seen as threatening the survival of UFO research due to the
unfair identification UFO = ETH as synonymous?? But invalid
theoretical reasoning like that which equates UFO = ETH is no
excuse to just throttle all theoretical work. That is why the
UFO community needs to do its own UFO theoretical work on the
ETH so it will ensure a "fairer hearing" on such issues.

>Over time ufologists ceased talking about the ETH for many
>understandable reasons. One was that it had become a club to
>beat them over the head with.

Well UFO proponents have never developed any ETH models that
are testable, with the possible exception of Vallee, and his work has
stopped. You say the UFO community has stopped work on ETH.

>Debunkers asserted that since
>ufologists couldn't prove the ETH, there was no reason to take
>UFO sightings seriously and to investigate them accordingly.
>Ufologists, quite naturally, came to the conclusion that since
>indeed we can't prove the ETH (or any other hypothesis about the
>nature of the phenomenon), it is wisest - both intellectually
>and strategically - to concentrate on data-gathering. They were
>led to argue (as in fact I did a couple of weeks ago in a
>conversation with a producer from the news division of a major
>broadcast network) that UFO reports are best seen as modestly as
>possible: as questions for investigation, not as subjects for
>sweeping speculation. If a single puzzling report is brought to
>a potentially intrigued scientist, it is frankly stupid to
>present it as possible evidence for a staggering claim; rather,
>it's best brought forth as a puzzle which, if solved, might
>teach us something new, possibly even important, and no more.

Once again it's this either/or: Either extreme theoreticism
(the actual term is "idealism" but would be misunderstood here)
or extreme empiricism. Theory and observation are supposed to
work together in an interactive synergistic fashion. You are
taking it that ETH theoretical work is going to be done in a
SETI way, standing aloof and judgmentally condemning UFO
observations. Well that isn't the way theory and observation
usually work in science anyway and once again, if the UFO
community did its own theory development you wouldn't such a
problem of disparaging the UFO data.

Scientists get put off when someone tries to push "data" on them
that they see no theoretical framework for interpreting. It's
like giving them a painting of a house without blueprints,
tools, or materials and telling them "Now build us a house!"
 You are telling them to build the foundation for a brand new
science all from scratch! It is highly unlikely that any single
scientist is capable of doing that, Isaac Newton style, even if
they wanted to. They need a community of something like on the
order of a hundred equally capable colleagues. If you had some
theoretical framework built already, you might be able to
attract some scientists who can see a way to build on that
foundation, that it wouldn't look so hopeless.

>High-strangeness claims represent a particular dilemma for
>ufologists. As Aime Michel wisely observed long ago, they are
>not inconsistent with an ETH; it is hardly unreasonable to
>expect that visiting extraterrestrials might conduct themselves
>very oddly. In private conversations with some very smart
>colleagues, I have heard extremely interesting speculations
>about the meaning of high-strangeness phenomena in an ETH
>context.

It is hardly reasonable to think that falling bodies just fall
without any effect of air resistance, deviations from the path,
etc. Yet physics going back to Galileo found that the first
thing you must do to understand ballistic trajectories is to
ignore the "very odd" complicating effects at _first_ and study
them _later_ after you have solved the solvable problems first.

>On the other hand, as I get older - I have, I now realize
>ruefully, spent nearly all of my life in ufology - I find that
>my interests are mostly focused on the high-strangeness problem,
>and my own thinking has led me away from the idea that the most
>extraordinary reports tell us anything about possible visiting
>aliens. The search for an ET presence must focus, in my opinion,
>on - generally speaking - CE2s, radar/visuals, and the like. It
>is my view that no single theoretical model will do for all UFO
>phenomena. It is my reading that at least two separate,
>unrelated things are happening at once, one physical, the other
>purely experiential, and so far it is often difficult to figure
>out which is which.
<snip>

At least we can agree on something, that the highest strangeness
UFO reports are too hard to solve, and that the focus should be
on the more understandable cases first.


Brad Sparks






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                        Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:02:09 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:34:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:43:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:20:20 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>I believe that it is an entirely credible argument that,
>>although no individual photo is capable of making much impact on
>>the case for UFO's,the cumulative effect of thousands of such
>>photos taken over the past 60 years strongly supports the case
>>for the physical existence of "flying saucers".

>Agreed.The sheer volume of sightings, combined with the photos,
>even though they aren't great (although in contrast to the
>overall thesis of the thread, I think many of them are pretty
>damned good, and often rejected because they're "too good")
>demands serious consideration, and pushes the "they're all
>hoaxes or defects" argument to the sharp, opposite-side edge of
>Occam's Razor.

UFO cases have to be screened (Hynek Screening for IFO's and
hoaxes) and investigated before they can be declared real and
unexplained "UFOs."  UFO photo cases are no different.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                        Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:02:09 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:37:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:43:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:20:20 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>I believe that it is an entirely credible argument that,
>>although no individual photo is capable of making much impact on
>>the case for UFO's,the cumulative effect of thousands of such
>>photos taken over the past 60 years strongly supports the case
>>for the physical existence of "flying saucers".

>Agreed.The sheer volume of sightings, combined with the photos,
>even though they aren't great (although in contrast to the
>overall thesis of the thread, I think many of them are pretty
>damned good, and often rejected because they're "too good")
>demands serious consideration, and pushes the "they're all
>hoaxes or defects" argument to the sharp, opposite-side edge of
>Occam's Razor.

UFO cases have to be screened (Hynek Screening for IFOs and
hoaxes) and investigated before they can be declared real and
unexplained "UFOs." UFO photo cases are no different.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

               Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Race - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:21:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:41:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Race - King


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:47:33 -0300
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Race

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:15:07 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

<snip>

>>In the end, I think Stanton Friedman is an excellent example of
>>an agent provocateur, although probably not the kind you were
>>talking about. :)

>Just what am I doing that qualifies me as an agent provocateur?
>Yes, professors have taught college courses on UFOs after
>hearing me speak. Yes, I have appeared in college classrooms
>touting my lecture that evening and often speaking of physics
>and flying saucers. I have talked to management clubs of such
>corporations as Lockheed, McDonnell Douglas, North American
>Rockwell, General Dynamics, Motorola, etc. My being a scientist
>is what made all the difference


Stan,

If my post seemed in some way defamatory, nothing could be
further from my intent.

By "agent provocateur", I meant the fact that any of us would
happily take the testimony of someone who might be under oath
not to give testimony. Unless I have mistaken your work, you are
determined to get the government to reveal what it knows, and
you have shown classified government documents, and interviewed
military men who were knowingly revealing classified
information.

I am not saying that this is in any way bad, it just fits the
description of "agent provocateur". I would think you'd actually
fancy the term. My regrets otherwise.

My use of the "garbage man" was perhaps unfortunate, as my
intent was not to compare you to one, but to remind that great
discoveries do not require scientific training, especially when
much of the proof you show, and much of what you seek, are
documents. Your work is every bit of someone going through the
... insert metaphor here: dirty laundry, garbage, closet,
etc... of the archives you search. My point was simply
that... your status as a UFO researcher does not _depend_ on your
physics background. It adds to your legitimacy of course, as it
should. But a you do not need to be a physicist to do your work.
It would be no different if you were a renowned heart surgeon.
Your medical knowledge would not directly pertain to your UFO
research, it would simply be another area of expertise which you
possess.

I was not intending to open a can of worms. I was just
expressing the fact that Stanton Friedman is a leading force on
the study of UFOs... not because he is a physicist, but because
you have amassed the mountain of data you have, and have
presented that data with clarity and insight.

And I was making a play on Brad's "agent provocateur" euphemism.

"Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood..."


Kyle








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:34:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:43:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:54:21 +0000
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:12:27 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:07:52 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

><snip>

>>>In my experience and that of every serious colleague, the
>>>"aliens" (if that is what they are) have proven to be equal
>>>opportunity abductors. No social, educational, racial,
>>>intellectual, or other biases.

>>But we have already determined, in an exchange on this List a
>>couple of years ago, that this is not so, and that there is a
>>considerable under-representation of Black people amongst UFO
>>abductees, for whatever reason.

>Speak for yourself, John. In my own limited studies, at least
>compared to Hopkins and Jacobs, I have encountered and worked
>with several Black abductees in the Greater Washington, D.C.,
>area. They have included a star college athlete, a middle class
>woman, and an inner city Black girl of poor educational
>background (but impressively reporting exactly the same sort of
>thing).

>When you say there is a considerable under-representation of
>Blacks, once again there are no hard statistics to justify such
>a statement that I am aware of.


>- Dick

ROFL! Thanks Dick!

I guess in Rimmer's world Black abductees are hard to come by.

Considering the first and foremost of abductees was a black man
named Barney Hill. I guess the aliens stopped at him after they
saw he had false teeth.

And if we go back and analyze history and add that oft mentioned
biblical reference I guess Moses, Jesus, and everybody in the
good book who were black don't count either. But that's another
debate, sorry I went there, it was too tempting.

Here in the states I guess most black people aren't worried
about being abducted by aliens, I'ld wager they're more
concerned about being abducted by cops while driving a new car.


Best,

Greg







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                    Re: Secrecy News -- 07/28/04 - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:36:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:44:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Secrecy News -- 07/28/04 - Sparks


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:36:52 -0500
>Subject: Re: Secrecy News -- 07/28/04

>>From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:57:03 -0400
>>Subject: Secrecy News -- 07/28/04

<snip>

>>Author Peter Galison, a distinguished historian of science at
>>Harvard, reviews recent classification practices and then asks
>>what epistemological assumptions are implicit in the act of
>>censoring, or classifying, particular items of information.  The
>>classifier, he suggests, relies on a discredited "atomic" theory
>>of knowledge.

>>"Contra the logical positivists and their allies, it is
>>precisely not possible to reduce meaningful language to discrete
>>enunciations. Communication -- at least meaningful, verifiable
>>communication -- cannot be rendered into a sequence of protocol
>>statements. But such a conception of knowledge is exactly what
>>lies behind the classifiers' imaginary," he writes.

>>"At the root of this theory of punctiform knowledge excision
>>stands a fundamental instability."

>>Dig it.

<snip>

Well if that isn't just dandy, another excuse to classify
_everything_ on the grounds that knowledge is interrelated and
not just little pieces here and there.  So if one piece is
classified then everything else no matter how remotely related
can be argued to be classified because it all makes up a
holistic whole that is now "classified."  Just dandy.

I think government classification authorities already tend to do
this now and need no further "bad ideas" to help them along.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                          Re: Apollo 16 Film - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:49:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:47:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Apollo 16 Film - King


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:18:47 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Apollo 16 Film

>>From: James Oberg <joberg.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:28:20 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Apollo 16 Film - Oberg

><snip>

>>Late last month there was a high level of message traffic about
>>a JSE article concerning the Apollo-16 video with an anomalous
>>image, and there was considerable speculation - prior to anyone
>>actually seeing the article, apparently - about what was claimed
>>in it, and what was proved.

>>Through the generosity of two colleagues I obtained a copy of
>>that article and posted my comments on February 26, here:

>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/feb/m26-007.shtml

>>I hope in coming days others will be able to examine the actual
>>article, compare it with my comments, and resume the discussion
>>at a much more productive level.

>Thanks to a letter from U.S. Congressman Dutch Ruppersberger of
>Maryland to NASA regarding the Apollo 16 UFO film footage, we
>now have an official explanation for this anomalous image that
>looks like a domed flying saucer in the immediate vicinity of
>the Moon.

<snip>


Nick and List,

A very good article on this with photos, at:

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/space/travelinginspace/no_ufo.html


Best,

Kyle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:46:10 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:49:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:04:21 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:45:07 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:52:58 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>>"How many here believe they have seen what I would describe as a
>>flying saucer, as I described earlier?. I count out loud.
>>Typically it is 10% of the people present. Then I ask "How many
>>of you have reported what you have seen?" Typically 10% of the
>>10%. Then I ask how many of the small group were in the military
>>at the time and if they want to tell the rest of us about it.
>>Get some great stories and wonderful lines like "I can't ; they
>>told me not to say anything." or "They took my pictures" etc.

>>>I find stats on those who believe that UFOs exist all over the
>>>place, but while that seems to be a valuable statistic to a
>>>sociologist, it seems equally worthless in any scientific UFO
>>>context.

>>>And I'm also very weary of the "message from the space
>>>brothers" testimony. While I am unable to label it false, lest
>>>I incur anywrath should they be right, it eludes my grasp due
>>>to the gargantuan grain of salt accompanying it. Alas, my
>>>prejudice revealed.

>>Belief questions require a better word than UFO. In one
>>classroom of 100 students asked to respond with their eyes
>>closed, 80% said they thought most people didn't think any UFOs
>>were ET Spacecraft, whereas 80% of the group did think some
>>were.....

<snip>

>I'm reading this post and I get to the 'military' personell who
>can't disclose something.

>I must know a dozen or two bona fide military who've told me to
>my face they couldn't talk about the UFO issue because of some
>oath, agreement, threat of prosecution and at best, " You'll
>find out on a need to know basis."

>If we were looking for 'proof' of a coverup and conspiracy
>that's it in a nutshell. Case closed, put a fork in it.

Well how do we know this was coverup due to the UFO element or
simply due to blanket security classification which makes most
UFO data secret automatically? I have found evidence of coverup
of both types, the two types have to be carefully distinguished.
Most military personnel I've talked to have only had blanket
security restrictions which they often misunderstood to be more
all-inclusive than they really were. Have you considered that
factor? That government personnel think something is classified
when it isn't? I have run into that a lot and sometimes can
convince them something isn't really classified anymore, usually
by reading to them their own documents and proving they were now
declassified.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

             Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:04:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:50:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Sparks


>From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:42:37 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

<snip>

>I have the sense that a rather more sinister scenario than the
>above Jane Goodall scenario is what Brad Sparks is getting at in
>his latest input on this thread. Let's consider a definition of
>"Agent Provacateur:"

Rod I like this definition you found. But is it "rather
sinister"? I tend to think of "sinister" as something dangerous.
This is more in the nature of "dirty tricks." Civil libertarians
might go ballistic but that is perhaps due to keen sensitivity
to First Amendment issues etc.

>"An agent provocateur is a person assigned to provoke unrest,
>violence, debate or argument by or within a group while acting
>as a member of the group but covertly representing the interests
>of another. In general, agents provacateur seek to secretly
>disrupt a group's activities from within the group."

>(I got this definition at a very handy online resource I
>sometimes use for quick reference:

http://explanation-guide.info/)

>So, Brad's suggestion is that Michael Salla, credentialed
>political scientist, former professor, purported current
>researcher at Washington University, comes out with this nut-job
>thesis about how 50-odd alien races currently have their
>"fingers" in our collective pie, in cahoots with a mostly
>military "black" government, all of this unbeknownst to the
>President, the person on the street, and to most "serious
>ufologists." He also puts together a website devoted to further
>evaluation of the political implications of this nut-job thesis.
>All completely serious, presented in characteristically dry
>academic style (which makes it seem all the more ludicrous, in
>my opinion).

>The _purpose_ of all of this, if Michael Salla does, indeed,
>represent an "agent provacateur," would be "... to to provoke
>unrest, violence, debate or argument by or within a group
>[ufologists] while acting as a member of the group [UFO UpDates
>List Member, website devoted to the cause] but covertly
>representing the interests of another..." [the black government,
>who wants to misdirect us so we don't uncover their UFO
>secrets]. Salla, in short, is acting like... "a member of the
>group in order to secretly disrupt the group's activities from
>within the group."

>If this is what Brad is getting at, then I have to confess, with
>all due respect, that this is way, _way_ outside my paradigm.
>Maybe I'm a dupe - I'll always allow for that possibility. But
>it just doesn't feel like the right answer. I could go on to
>rationalize my thinking on this, but there seems little point,
>as I doubt if it would sway anyone with the opposite position.

Well, how many times does this has to happen over the past 50+
years before we "get it" and see the pattern? Credible seeming
scientists, ranking military officers and others who suddenly
spout off about crashed saucers, alien bodies, or live alien-
government "meetings" or captures??

You forgot to mention Salla's Australian background. Ever heard of
the ANZUS and UKUSA intelligence treaties? Certain restrictions on
domestic operations do not apply to a foreigner. Certain friendly
countries have operational environments where almost anything and
anyone is fair game and is backed up by the local intelligence
services who help, or who carry out the whole operation. NSA for
example has a cute trick for spying on US citizens - the agency has
British GCHQ personnel do the spying for them even using NSA
facilities on an "exchange basis." Cute. And then the whole
operation falls under the ultratight security for "foreign liaison"
intelligence and the files kept as "British" (or Australian or whatever
the "liaison" country and intelligence service is used) and thus not
subject to FOIA requests. Doubly cute.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:12:23 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:51:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:54:44 -0400
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Brad Sparks <BRB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:25:07 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:33:23 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>>Stan has also been a lone voice crying in the wilderness as to
>>the largest statistical analysis of UFO and IFO data ever
>>conducted, the Blue Book Special Report No. 14 by the Battelle
>>Memorial Institute. No one listens to Stan on the Battelle
>>study.

>One person (besides Brad) does.... and did.

>Many years ago (middle 1970's) I studied the report carefully
>and even revised some of the statistical analysis. I reported on
>this analysis in a tw-part article that appeared in the Journal
>of UFO Studies in the late 70' and 80's.
<snip>

>The revised statistics (which Brad checked, lo these many years
>ago) confirm the original statistical result that when general
>characteristics (shape, color, duration of sighting, etc.) of
>the unknowns and knowns are compared, the unknowns are found to
>be different from the knowns.

Yes, Bruce, sorry I did not mention that you and I had studied
the Battelle, as well as some others, but I was just referring
to Stan's "lone voice in the wilderness" role where he has been
pushing for recognition of the Battelle study for years and
years but is ignored because he is "too nuts-and-bolts" (or
whatever the reason is one is even given).








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                          Filer's Files #32 - 2004

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:07:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:07:18 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #32 - 2004




Source: George Filer.Com

http://www.nationalufocenter.com/news/printable.php?id=3D198

Filers Files #32 - 2004 - 07-28-2004

Summary:

Life in Space

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. These Files make the assumption that
extraterrestrial intelligent life exists. SETI Institute -
Claims Life in Space, Mar's - Lakes With Water, Mars - Green
Vegetation, Saturn - Cassini-Huygens Picks Up Strange Light, New
York - Car Stalls, Pennsylvania - Sphere, Georgia - Multiple
Lights Changing Color, Ohio - Flying Triangle, Illinois - Circle
With Lights, Tennessee - Image of UFO Near Jet, Nebraska - UFO
in Crop Duster Photos, Oklahoma - Gold UFO Photographed, Arizona
- Orbs, California - Changing Shiny Object Photo, Washington -
Intense UFO Activity, Argentina: UFO Filmed , England - UFOs
Chased, Poland - Military Will Shoot UFOs Update, and Turkey -
 Police Film UFO. David Twichell writes, "Anomalies Found in
Roswell Metal."

Full Story: It will cost almost $200 to upgrade this website to
have photos again according to my web master Chuck Warren.
Websites are rather expensive to maintain.

Therefore, donations cheerfully accepted. These files cannot
exist without your help. Donations can be sent to:

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for

majorstar.nul You may use PayPal - Welcome or you can also mail your=
 check to

George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055.


SETI Institute - Claims Life in Space

Exclusive from New Scientist -- If intelligent life exists
elsewhere in our galaxy, advances in computer processing power
and radio telescope technology will ensure we detect their
transmissions within two decades. That is the bold prediction
from a leading light at the Search for Extraterrestrial
Intelligence Institute in Mountain View, California. Seth
Shostak, the SETI Institute's senior astronomer, based his
prediction on accepted assumptions about the likelihood of alien
civilizations existing, combined with projected increases in
computing power. Shostak, whose calculations will be published
in a forthcoming edition of the space science journal Acta
Astronautica, first estimated the number of alien civilizations
in our galaxy that might currently be broadcasting radio
signals.

For this he used a formula created in 1961 by astronomer Frank
Drake which factors in aspects such the number of stars with
planets, how many of those planets might be expected to have
life, and so on. Shostak came up with an estimate of between
10,000 and one million radio transmitters in the galaxy. To find
them will involve observing and inspecting radio emissions from
most of the galaxy's 100 billion stars. Within a generation,
radio emissions from enough stars will be observed and analyzed
to find the first alien civilization, Shostak estimates. But
because they will probably be between 200 and 1000 light years
away, sending a radio message back will take centuries. Thanks
to Skywatch: http://www.skywatch-
international.org/skywatch_membership_application.pdf

Editor's Note: Assuming Shostak is correct then it is logical to
assume some of these intelligent civilizations would most likely
visit planet Earth, that is now believed to be roughly in the
center of the known universe. Radio signals are the rough
equivalent to Indian smoke signals. Intelligent alien life
appears to use advanced communication technology, spending our
time looking for the equivalent of smoke signals will not likely
be fruitful. Peter Davenport has proposed a method for finding
intelligent life that uses FM radio signals to locate the UFOs.
Most scientists have virtually no knowledge of the UFO field and
are unaware of frequent radar evidence, reports by pilots,
astronauts and cosmonauts.

Mars - Lakes With Liquid Water

Rick Berry writes, "When I saw the stories about NASA accepting
the possibility of water on Mars I just had to laugh. What they
mean is that they realize that they can no longer lie to the
public and they know that they have to come clean soon, so they
drag it out the best they can until they don't look like total
Idiots." This picture is of water on Mars, not just a little
puddle or pond, but of an Immense Lake. It looks to be in the
order of tens of thousands of acres of water, nestled in a
Mountain Canyon. You can even see the Snowmelt coming down from
the cliffs. The difference from the surrounding terrain is
undisputable. The surrounding area is pockmarked with craters as
is most of the planet while the area of water I am speaking of,
not only is a Glass-like surface but actually fills in and
overflows into the craters along the edges of the Lake. I have
NO doubt of it and there should be no doubt in anyone else's
mind either. It looks no different than anything you would find
here on Earth in a Mountain region. PS. I have had this for a
long time, it is a compilation of two pictures. I have the MOC
numbers MOC-42203g MOC-42203h Thanks to Rick Berry rse.nul-
usa.net:

Mars - Green Vegetation

Norman Breydan writes, "Look at this fantastic European Space
Agency (ESA) image of the Valles Marineris and It makes you
wonder with amazement how the reporters and scientists could
miss it.

Green is by far the most valuable proof for life on Mars next to
the images of vegetation and structures. Photosynthesis is a key
and amazing process that performs transmutation of the sun's
energy. Photosynthesis means life. There is a great amount of
life on Mars, high concentrations of liquid water and an
incredible amount of technology and knowledge waiting for us.
New data indicates the temperatures in the summer at the surface
on Mars are well above freezing. Thanks to Norman Breydan in
Boston.


Saturn - Cassini-Huygens Mission Picks Up Strange Lights

MODESTO- R. David Anderson writes, "I have sent you a series of
e-mails that show an unusual object above Saturn. I have come
across the same thing again in earlier images from the Cassini-
Huygens Mission to Saturn and Titan. These were received by JPL
on July 19th, 2004. These two pictures were taken one after the
other as indicated by the numerical order.

Image 7211 JPL shows Saturn and a strange light that may
represent a space craft moving at high speed. On Image 7212,
taken a short time later the object is not there. So in a matter
of a minute this light disappears or moves out of the photo.
Thanks to R. David Anderson Puppysonny1

Editor's Note: Strange lights and objects are often seen moving
across JPL images. They usually claim they are caused by
transmission errors.

New York - Car Stalls

Upstate Weirdness - Two friends were driving in the mountains in
upstate New York on July 22, 2004, around 2 AM. They pulled the
car off the highway in a heavily wooded area to take a break.
They got out of their car, but we left the head lights on
because it was very dark. They heard a strange humming sound,
which was not a typical humming sound. As the humming got
louder, the cars head lights started dimming and went off. They
started freaking out at this point. They jumped back in the car
an attempted to start it. The car wouldn't start; they wanted to
get the hell out of there as fast as they could. They were some
what frantic. After about ten minutes the car's light suddenly
went back on and they were able to start the car. The observer
states, "That's when we noticed this lemon shaped light in the
sky that just sort of drifted for a minute and the strange noise
stopped, and I have no idea what it was, but I'm never going up
state again!" Thanks to Peter Davenport Director

Pennsylvania - Sphere

TITUSVILLE - The witness was at his niece's birthday party on
July 18, 2004, when he noticed a silver ball just above the tree
line about 200 yards away. It was polished looking silver like a
mirror and it started moving slowly left at 1 PM. The ball
shifted from silver to a reddish color in a perfectly timed
sequence. It flew back to the right, stopped, and drifted
downward behind the trees. He states, "Everyone around me passed
it off as a Mylar balloon, but I had a different feeling about
it." Fifteen minutes later I noticed it again in the same place
above the tree line moving slowly left with the red and silver
shifts, and back to the right again. This time instead of going
behind the trees it moved up at the same slow speed until it was
too small to find with my eye against the bright blue sky. It
was very strange. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director

Georgia -- Multiple Lights Changing Color

LAGRANGE -- While outside looking at the bats flying around near
the outside lights they started looking at what we thought was a
flashing star on July 20, 2004. The hovering red flash caught
their eye and curiosity. It was not a plane because it seemed to
be still. Then the lights kept changing color from red, to blue,
to white and green. They flashed like police lights. Then it
seemed to slowly move to the right, stop, move up, stop, and
then left. The light was too high up to make out a shape, but
seemed like a straight line when the colors were flashing. We
eventually went inside to see if there was anybody we could
call. We decided to go back outside to take a second look and
reassure ourselves it wasn't just a star or our eyes playing
tricks on us and it was gone. All the other stars were visible.
We live on five acres in the country so it is very easy to see
the sky without the obstruction of streetlights. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director


Ohio - Flying Triangle

LEWISBURG - On July 17, 2004, three friends were traveling west
on I-70 not far from Dayton at 3 AM, when they spotted an
illuminated triangular shaped object about a mile high. The
whole ship was lit up in a light blue/white glow like a plane in
town for Wright Patterson Air Force Base Air Show. They drove
towards the light, and as they got closer they could see the
craft was not a perfect triangle. The witness states, "The nose
was narrower, then it contoured out in a definite triangular
shape with two lights on the outer "wings" that blinked in sync
about one per second." The front of the craft put off a decently
bright glow, but was not a beam of light. The craft was bigger
then the Stealth Bomber, but not by too much. It was very flat
in appearance and was only 10 to 15 feet thick. I've seen the
stealth up close, and I can definitely say it was not one
because it was not jagged in the rear. The flying triangle was
500 feet in altitude and hovering. We could now also see the
front underneath part that was a narrow and long opening,
rectangular, and lit up. Not brightly, but enough to tell that
you were looking into the craft that looked like red pipes or
bars of some sort that were red in color. It put off a red hue
with the white light around it.

The traffic slowed down to 40 mph and we drove directly
underneath as it hovered over the median of the highway. Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director

FOSTORIA - George Ritter video taped a similar flying triangle
later in the day.


Illinois - Circle With Lights

LOVES PARK - The witness's hobby is looking for satellites.
Around 1 AM, on July 20, 2004, he observed a circle shaped
object glide across the sky moving west to east. The circle
shaped object was dark in color, with lights all the way around
the bottom. Satellites have no lights, but sometimes reflect the
sun. There was absolutely no sound. The object was rotating
counter-clockwise several hundred feet above the ground with
lights and moving eastward. The sighting lasted about 20
seconds. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director

Tennessee - Image of UFO near Jet

HEISKELL -- Kim Shaffer, MUFON State Director writes, "Here is a
good sighting that took place today, July 26th at 20:13 hours.
The object, an obvious discoid shape, kept a relative distance
to the aircraft as both traveled across the sky. The witness
managed to get only one image.

The witness stated, "It was obvious from my perception that the
UFO was as high as the aircraft or even higher and I saw a
second, smaller object in the shot, but it is not visible in the
image." MUFON has complete details on this sighting. Thanks to:
Kim Shaffer, MUFON TN State Director (eastern)

We had some significant sightings tonight, two clips of which
are now on the website: http://www.sonorasightings.com. There
were a series of eight of these glowing objects between 9:00 and
11:00 PM. http://www.mufontennessee.org


Nebraska - UFO in Crop Duster Photos

DONIPHAN -- On July 20, 2004, at 7:30 PM, a crop dusting plane
was forced to make an emergency landing on the highway, when he
ran out of fuel. A fuel truck was summoned and he was refueled
in short order. At 8 PM, the plane took off and began to circle.
I took numerous photos and when later viewed an object appeared
in the photos that I had taken when plane was in the southeast
sky. The sun was at my back. One object was seen in photo. I was
with two other neighbors and we had not seen the object. I think
we were just concentrating and excited about the crop dusters
near miss with catastrophe. Crop duster had a 450 H.P. Grumman
Craft and we did not hear any other aircraft sounds. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director

Oklahoma - Gold UFO Photographed

WILLOW -- Jim Hickman asked me to send you this story. I was
driving north on US-283 near Willow, OK early this morning and
saw a strange object hovering to the west. I slowed down and
managed to take a picture, but since the car was still moving it
turned out a little blurred. By the time I came to a full stop
it had vanished. I lost the instruction book for my Olympus C-1
1, 3 Mpix Camera, so I don't know how to check the date. The
camera is about two years old, and I've never set the date since
I've owned it. By the time I got my vehicle to a full stop on
the side of the road, the object was gone. Thanks to Jim Hickman
and Skywatch International

Arizona - Orbs
CHANDLER - A UFO investigator, his son and a friend saw 6 to 7
orange orbs in the Chandler and near the South Mountain area on
July 20, 2004, at 7:45 PM. Two orange orbs suddenly appeared in
the southern sky around 7 PM, and started shooting them with a
video camera. They watched them for about 3 to 5 minutes before
they burned out. A few minutes later two flew in real close
together on the east side of South Mountain. Then two more orbs
flew in from the west of South Mountain. There were a total or
four with two on the east and two on the west. They were video
taped for about fifteen minutes until they disappeared. We video
taped for four nights, and the local news will be doing a story
on what we taped. The lights are neat and I'm sure in time there
will be more.

WEST PHOENIX - The observers were driving their 18 wheeler truck
west on I-10 at about 20 miles west of Phoenix on July 20, 2004,
when they noticed two bright glowing lights to the southwest and
just east of the Palo Verde Nuclear Power Plant at 10:15 PM. The
lights were very bright in the sky along the foot hills that run
south of the freeway. The lights were a bright orange, similar
to a street light. The two balls of light were side by side when
they just slowly faded away. They reappeared further to the
west, but this time the lights were on top of each other for
about five minutes. The driver pulled off the freeway so that he
could view them through his binoculars, but all he could make
out was the bright lights, and no formation. The driver states,
"What was kind of rare was to see some jets flying close to the
lights in a circling motion." Then all of a sudden the lights
slowly dimmed out but, I could still see and hear the jets
flying around. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director

California - Changing Shiny Object Photo

SAN JOSE -- It was around noon and the witness was traveling
north on Saratoga Avenue on July 17, 2004, when he saw a bright
shiny object. There were several aircraft flying above San Jose
and the shiny UFO. This object was moving very slowly at first
giving the impression that it may be hovering. Then the object
seemed to suddenly move rapidly and then slow to a stand still.
The witness stopped and got out of his car to observe this shiny
object that was slowly moving southeast. The witness was wearing
sunglasses, and described the object, "It was like three bright
shiny balloons or spheres connected together that seemed to
change shape and reflect the sun's light or emit bright white
light." It took the shape of a triangle and then changed to form
a cylinder shape. Two minutes passed and the object seemed to
quickly ascend high in the atmosphere and appeared to look like
a bright star and climbing much higher and going east and
getting harder to see. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director

MODESTO -- R. David Anderson reports, "I photographed these
unusual lights from behind my house last night, on July 20,
2004. These lights passed overhead and appeared very dazzling
and bright and seemed to be moving in a rapid fluctuating
pattern. There was so much motion going on within these lights
that it was difficult to make out what it was. The still photos
help to clarify the form better, but do not really indicate the
intricate movements this object made as it passed overhead.
Thanks to R. David Anderson

Washington - Intense UFO Activity

MT. ADAMS - Cliff Mickelson reports, "This is just a short note
to advise you that UFO activity here in the eastern shadow of
Mt. Adams and Mt. Rainier, is approaching levels never before
observed, even for this historically active area." Sightings of
unidentified objects and other celestial anomalies over the last
couple years have been consistently high, but, there has been a
recent spike in such sightings, to such an extent, that it can
only be described as perplexing! The tempo of activity has
markedly increased from just a few months ago. We are fortunate
to be in an area with little light pollution and clear night
skies. The objects come even before the sky is even completely
dark and the activity continues all night long. Many of these
objects are traversing the sky much lower than normal. This "low
flying" trend appears to be picking up momentum. In the last few
nights, several of these "low flyers" have passed nearly
directly overhead and continued to travel northeast, passing
directly over the city of Yakima or the US Army Desert Warfare
Center. Many other residents must be seeing them. I invite
anyone who may wish to observe or record these phenomena to feel
free to contact me and I will provide directions to this locale.
Thanks to CliffMickelson Tampico, WA.cmicke1065.nul

SEATTLE -- Between 3 and 4 AM, on July 23, 2004, the witnesses
were northwest of Seattle and saw a bright white light in the
sky. The light was much larger than any planet and moved slowly
to the southeast and then moved vertically. Thanks to Brian
Vike, HBCC UFO Research

Argentina: UFO Filmed

COMODORO RIVADAVIA -- A resident of Comodoro Rivadavia filmed an
unidentified flying object (UFO) over Cerro Chenque, Friday
morning July 16, 2004. Marcelo Soto claimed the object
apparently rested on that mountain and he was able to record it
from his home. The film shows a phenomenon that is very similar
to the one seen in recent days over Gobernador Ugarte (Pcia. de
Buenos Aires). Marcelo Soto states, "The image captured is
unedited, and from the center of the luminous sphere, which
changes colors, it can be seen how other lights emerge from
within." I wanted to have the best possible image and that's why
I left the camera alone, pointing to where the UFO was, and then
I connected the camera to the TV set. "The object approached and
receded. There was some kind of light in the center of the
sphere that changed color. Other lights came out of the center
of the circle toward the side." That's when I got scared," he
added.


In this regard, the director of Comodoro Rivadavia's airport,
Roberto Romero, explained that Air Force radars and pilots,
"have not recorded any sightings, nor have aircraft reported
anything like it, but the presence of a UFO in the video can't
be refuted." Translation (c) 2004. Scott Corrales, Institute of
Hispanic Ufology Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi.

England - UFOs Chased
ILFORD, ESSEX -- Lisa Sable called from London to tell me that
while in school as eleven year old in 1980, she and her class
twenty mates saw a huge craft hovering above a football pitch of
about fifteen acres next to their school. The huge craft was
also seen by their professor a Rabbi. After ten minutes of
watching and disruption of the class they moved to another room.
Thanks to Lisa Sable

NEUROLOGIST NEEDED --Karin Holloway, a Close Encounter Analyst
writes, "I am a CE-IV analyst (Investigator, therapist,
counselor) in England and I have a client who needs some special
attention. BUFORA does not have consultants. My client
experienced his body being taken apart and put together again
using what he was told was a nerve putty. He believes it is
still in him and that it could help those with neurological
problems. Is there an anatomist or a neurologist who would be
interested in taking a look? Your help would be greatly
appreciated. Thank you! Karin Hoppe Holloway, CHT, CEA
karin.h.h.nul

Secret Papers Tell How RAF Hunted Aliens

THE OBSERVER -- Paul Harris reports, "They have been the subject
of derision for claiming aliens have visited Earth from outer
space, but believers in the existence of UFOs were this weekend
excitedly poring over newly released military documents that
show how fighter aircraft were scrambled to intercept strange
shapes in Britain's skies. The secret papers obtained from the
US military give an insight into an astonishing chain of events
sparked by UFO sightings over East Anglia in 1956. After
receiving numerous calls reporting bright lights darting across
the sky, fighters from RAF Lakenheath spent more than seven
hours trying to shoot down the objects, which were picked up on
army radar screens.

The classified documents were secured under the US Freedom of
Information Act by Dave Clarke, an author researching the
subject. One US Air Force intelligence report described how '12
to 15' objects were picked up on radar screens on 13 August
1956. They were tracked for more than 50 miles. One object was
logged traveling at 4,000 mph. 'Operators making these radar
sightings are of the opinion that malfunctions of equipment did
not cause these radar sightings,' the document said. The radar
logs describe white lights darting across the skies. At times,
the objects traveled in formation and performed sharp turns. One
document describes how an object was tracked by radar for 26
miles, before it hovered for five minutes then flew away again.

A cable was sent from US Air Force Headquarters in Washington
warning of the 'considerable interest and concern' at the
sightings and demanding an immediate inquiry. The cable asked if
they were linked to a similar scare reported by a British radar
station on the Danish island of Bornholm in the Baltic Sea a
week later. snip Copyright Guardian Newspapers Limited.

Editor's Note: London Control directed us to chase a UFO over
England while I was serving in the US Air Force in 1962.

Polish Military - Ordered To Shootdown UFOs (Update)

According to the Polish newspaper Fakt military personnel have
the command to shoot down UFOs. A Fakt journalist stated that
Captain Adam Krysiewica of Naval Sources confirmed this position
taken by the Polish military. The newspaper also stated that the
military keeps a close watch on the Polish skies, letting
nothing out of the ordinary escape their radar or eyes.

Polish UFO enthusiasts are writing a letter to the military
requesting that they reconsider this "shoot first, and then ask
questions later" attitude. The UFO proponents stated that the
order makes a negative assumption that any unknown flying
objects that could be of extraterrestrial origin would be
hostile in nature. Ufologists believe it possible that UFOs
might be piloted by an intelligence which could benefit mankind
with solutions for world hunger, disease, and political unrest.

USTKA -- Dariusz Helle photographed a UFO over Baltic Sea
coastal city a few days avter the Fakt article. The UFO was a
slowly moving object on the night sky . There is a large Army
base nearby with lots of radars. Apparently, the threat did not
deter the visitors. Thanks to Tomek Wierszalowicz (UFORA)
http://www.ustka.pl/ustka.html and Fakt News http://www.e-
fakt.pl

Turkey - UFO Filmed by Police

MERSIN -- Deputy Police Chief Mehmet Baydogan reported that
police officers captured a UFO on video on Tuesday, July 20,
2004. The police had received calls about a sighting near the
Free Zone and officers from the Bureau of Investigation and
Identification arrived at the scene and filmed at 4 AM. The
officers reported the UFO was mostly crimson colored with tones
of yellow and green. It was round/circular and it was constantly
moving and radiating light. After the daybreak, the object
ascended and vanished. The police had never before experienced
an event of this nature.

AYD=DDN -- Yuksel Sekerci, 38 years old pharmacist claims to have
seen a UFO in the sky that he captured with his video camera on
Monday, July 19, 2004. The video shows moving bright lights.
Sekerci said, "I woke up at 4.30 AM and saw a traveling object
in the sky with shining lights, which looked much different from
a star. I grabbed my camera immediately and started filming it.
After zooming on the object I noticed its UFO-like shape and it
was probably a UFO that gave me the chills."

The case is under the investigation of SIRIUS UFO Space Sciences
Research Center in Istanbul. Thanks to Sirius
info.nul, www.siriusufo.org

Anomalies Found in Roswell Metal

David E. Twichell writes, "In 1996, Linda Moulton Howe, UFO
investigator and author, submitted a piece of metal to
biophysicist W. C. Levengood, of Grass Lake, Michigan, for
analysis. The metallic fragment is alleged to have come from the
debris field of the famous Roswell, New Mexico UFO crash of
1947.

"From Electron Microscope and EDS (Electron Dispersive
Spectroscopy) studies it was shown that the metal was composed
of contiguous layers of pure bismuth (Bi) and layers of
magnesium (Mg) containing between 2-3 percent zinc (Zn). The
Electron Microscope images disclosed that Bi layers are in the
range of 1-4 microns thick and the Mg layers 100-200 microns in
thickness. When examined in cross section, it was apparent that
the layers were not smooth and straight but rather contained
micro-undulations. *

"One of the visits during Linda=92s Odyssey was at the Carnegie
Institute, Department of Terrestrial Magnetism, where she
arranged for an Ion Microprobe - Isotope analysis of the Bi/Mg
sample. In the final report by Dr. Erik Hauri, there are two
findings, which stand out as being highly anomalous.

1. The Bi/Mg sample gave a rate of emission of Mg (+) ions,
which was over 60 times the rate from the pure Mg metal
standard.

2. In the Bi layer the isotope ratio of mass, 208/206, was 2.72.
It was pointed out that this ratio is consistent with the known
isotope composition of lead (Pb).

"The presence of lead in the Bi layer was suggested as being due
to some type of contamination. This, however, can be eliminated
as cause of this unusual isotopic ratio in Bi, the reason being,
no Pb was detected in the EDS studies. This ion probe work
indicates unusual molecular structures in both the Bi and Mg
layers. Therefore, it can be concluded that the make-up of this
material is far from the =91standard=92 compositions."

Further studies by Levengood noted a chemical reaction in the
sample when subjecting it to a "Charge Density Pulse" test
(CDP). The method employed was via a patented device developed
by himself and Dr. John L. Gedye for the purpose of detecting
very subtle, self-organized groups of "charge density pulses"
which are within all living systems. "Further evidence of a
possible chemical reaction became apparent when a very active
bubble formation was noted within about three minutes after
introducing a 90 mg. Bi/Mg sample into the water. If indeed a
chemical reaction is taking place we have another very anomalous
situation. The Handbook of Chemistry and Physics lists Bi, Mg
and Zn as being insoluble (non-reactive) in water.

"Repeated trials of placing the Bi/Mg samples in water
consistently disclosed the presence of bubble emission within a
very short time after submerging in water. It was surprising to
find that bubble emission continued for days. Since the bubbles
are an indication that a chemical reaction is taking place, it
would be expected that reaction products would be present in the
base water. If Mg is being oxidized, a milky precipitate of MgO
particles should be formed (a very common industrial compound).
Instead, the water in which the reaction took place remained as
clear and free of particles as in the initial state."

Levengood tested the metal fragment for the presence of hydrogen
by putting a sample in a flask with a weak solution of acetic
acid. Immediately the fragment began to bubble as in water. The
top of the flask was covered with a double layer of saran wrap.
After twenty minutes, the covering was removed and a flame was
introduced to the mouth of the flask. The result was a very
loud, active explosion inside the flask and at the opening,
indicating the presence of a high concentrate of hydrogen. This
result was repeated in subsequent tests and filmed by his
associate, Ms. Marilyn Ruben.

(*) "If a sample of the Bi/Mg metal is left in the weak acetic
acid until the bubbling stops (usually within a couple of hours)
it would be expected that reaction products would be found in
the acid solution. It was astounding to find that the liquid was
still as clear as when first placed in the flask and the only
other visible material was very thin, black, spongy flakes from
the Bi inter-layers. This experimental sequence was repeated a
number of times and in every case the results were the same. The
fact that very fine Bi particles remained in the solution
clearly indicates that this element acted as a catalyst in the
reaction process.

"By comparing the mass of the Bi flakes left in the solution
with the total mass of the Bi/Mg particle, it was determined
from a number of repeat experiments that between 94% and 96% of
the total mass of the original sample was still unaccounted
for."

The question, as to the origin of this strange metallic
fragment, remains. Many fragments, allegedly found at the
Roswell crash site in 1947, have reportedly slipped through the
cracks of the Army/Air force=92s tight security grid. Could this
particular fragment be one of them? W.C. Levengood observed in
his thesis on the metal; "the high, active output of the
hydrogen gas in these reactions, bring to mind obvious
applications for use as hydrogen fuel cells. A rapid and
complete reaction takes place without leaving behind reaction
products which can interfere with the reaction and poison the
system."

Could the fragment in question be from an advanced hydrogen
propulsion system? Was it indeed recovered from the debris field
of a downed exotic craft from elsewhere in the cosmos? In
seeking the answers, even more questions have been posed. One
fact that, to date, is not in question is that the unusual
properties of this alloy remains a mystery to Levengood, as well
as many other top-notch scientists who have examined it. An
alloy comprised of different elements is not found in nature. It
is forged by intelligent beings. After many years of testing,
science is unable to determine the basis for this particular
alloy=92s composition... let alone duplicate it!

Copywrite 2004, David E. Twichell.
http://www.ufoimplications.com

(*) Excerpt from "Anomalous Energy Transformations in a Bi/Mg
Layered Metal." A copyrighted scientific publication by W.C.
Levengood.

References:
1. W.C. Levengood & John L. Gedye, Evidence for Charge Density
Pulses Associated With Bioelectric Fields in Living Organisms,
Subtle Energies & Energy Medicine, Vol. 8, pp 33-54 (1998).

2. W.C. Levengood & John L. Gedye, Method and Apparatus for
Detecting, Recording and Analyzing Spontaneously Generated
Transient Electric Charge Pulses in Living Organisms, U.S.
Patent No. 6,347,238, Feb. 12, 2002.

3. W.C. Levengood & John L. Gedye, Mechanisms Related to Charge
Density Pulse Formation in Living Systems, (in Press) 2003).

4. Linda Moulton Howe. Glimpses of Other Realities, Vol. II, pp
11 - 22. http://earthfiles.com/

5. Marilyn Ruben. http://www.abduct.com/







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedmen

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:09:46 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:17:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedmen


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:00:19 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:54:18 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>>Your numbers seem to support Stan's more informal survey, or at
>>least they do not argue.

><snip>

>Yes, Stan mentioned a 10% reporting rate (90% of his audioences
>said they would not report). However, his audiences are self-
>selected to be interested in the UFO subject so that biases the
>sample in ways that just cannot be extended to the whole
>population, and just cannot be relied upon in that way. And
>these might be IFO's in an unknown number of cases, or just
>memory errors. There is a lot to be said for a case to be
>reported immediately after it occurs.

>Vallee's "hilltop" effect is what I am referring to, where the
>reporting rate increases as the type of UFO case increases in
>strangeness, but only up to a point, and then it gets too
>strange to report. Unfortunately I think neither Vallee or I or
>anyone else has any stats to back it up, it's just an impression
>from our experience with the UFO data and in investigating
>cases.


The percentage who have had a sighting goes up when I talk to
Workshop groups who pay good money to attend - 30 to 40% not
being unusual.

There are people who come to my lectures because they have heard
me on the radio or on TV. There are also those who have no
special interest but go to all the programs of the Management
club... good meal, good fellowship.

Then there are those who are just curious as to why  a nuclear
physicist would give an illustrated lecture "Flying Saucers ARE
Real!".

Normally I am not speaking to UFO groups. I think that none of
this matters, if one looks at the 90% or so who didn't report
their experience.


Stan Friedman







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                 Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:20:45 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:24:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races -


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:07:49 EDT
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:15:07 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

<snip>

>Well as you indicate in what I snipped out this isn't exactly
>what I meant by "agent provocateur" in the UFO community. You
>are taking it in the sense of someone provoking people to
>stimulate thinking in a good way. I am referring to those who
>pose as credible people who associate and mix the UFO community
>then spout off discrediting nonsense so that the whole UFO
>community is perceived as discredited.

>Stan may be playing down his physicist background because of
>years of being disparaged as the "nuts and bolts" man in UFO
>research.

Who says I play down my nuclear physicist background? All the
information (Press release, instructions on set up and
publicity, introduction, sample poster)to program sponsors plays
it up.

The type face on my poster for Nuclear Physicist-Lecturer is
larger than that for my name. My books and videos all take note
of nuclear physicist on the covers... not always as large as I
would have preferred. One needs to sell the sizzle.

Brad, are you just making this stuff up to provoke discussion?
Have you been getting false information from inside sources?
Provocateur indeed.


Stan Friedman







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

               Re: Return to Magonia Project Website Updated -

From: Daniel Guenther <daniel_g.nul-online.de>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:09:49 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:25:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Return to Magonia Project Website Updated -


>From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
>To: Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:07:30 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Return to Magonia Project Website Updated

>UFO related clippings from 1951 and 1952 are now online.

>http://embark.to/magonia


Great Project. Keep on going...


Daniel G.

--
JTC - UFO sightings database
http://www.ufodb.net








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

               Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Guenther

From: Daniel Guenther <daniel_g.nul-online.de>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:03:25 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:33:19 -0400
Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Guenther


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:51:17 +0100
>Subject: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>If there was one UFO photo, out of the thousands, which one
>would it be that you would put foward as the nearest to an
>unexplained, structured object unknown to this earth?

I have a few cases in my 'UFO Sightings Database'. Go to the
'Query' - down on the left - check the 'photos/footage' checkbox
in the 'Traces' subsection and hit the submit button for the
results.

Sorry for any outdated links within the cases. I'm working on
that!


Daniel G.

--
JTC - UFO sightings database
http://www.ufodb.net






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                          Re: Varginha Again - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:21:48 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:13:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Hall


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:43:39 +0200
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:01:49 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:50:03 +0200
>>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:41:45 +0000
>>>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>>BTW, talking of bad cases, I recommend that you take out of your
>>>excellent book "The UFO Evidence" the Ummo case, which is known
>>>worldwide to be a hoax. The authors of the fake landing of
>>>Alluche (1966) and of the fake pictures of San Jose de Valdeiras
>>>(1967) were unmasked long ago by spanish ufologists.

>>Where in The UFO Evidence do you see anything about the Ummo
>>case? It's certainly not in either volume to my knowledge, at
>>least in any positive way, since it is a well-known hoax as you
>>say.

>>As for Alluche (1966) if yoiu look at my footnotes the case was
>>reported by Ballester-Olmos and attributed to him. If it was
>>later discredited, that information did not reach me or anyone
>>else that I know, and that is simply a sign of poor
>>communications among UFOlogists.

>Dick,

>Most Spanish ufologists, including Ballester-Olmos, will confirm
>to you that the Alluche alleged landing traces were hoaxed by
>two men, who have been exposed and have admitted their hoax,
>Jordan Pena and Ortuno.

>I've said that on this List more than once.

Gildas,

I don't doubt your word, but no one ever notified me about it
and I don't read every post on this List (I have a life).

This just shows the danger of accepting cases investigated by
foreign colleagues which you have no way of checking for
yourself. I daresay Ballester-Olmos normally is a very reliable
source, but we all can be fooled... or learn new evidence that
changes the picture... occasionally.


- Dick








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                         Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:22:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:16:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:02:09 EDT
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:43:14 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>UFO cases have to be screened (Hynek Screening for IFOs and
>hoaxes) and investigated before they can be declared real and
>unexplained "UFOs." UFO photo cases are no different.

Absolutely. But even with the screening, if there are enough
photos that fall into the "unexplained" catagory, then either
you can assume the unexplaineds would probably be explained as
something mundane if you had more evidence and therefore not
worth further study, or you can accept them as truly unexplained
and continue to seek explanations, even possibly among the
extraordinary.

I think there have been enough unexplained photos to begin to
consider something extraordinary. Time and history may prove me
wrong, but I don't think I'm wrong in my consideration.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Jul > Jul 31

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:31:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:19:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:59:06 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:41:16 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:54:29 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:10:56 -0500
>>>>Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:02:31 -0400
>>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark


Hi, Brad,

>I don't think it is fair that I should have to self-censor
>myself to word things in such an butt-kissing way that it is
>utterly dull,

I think you've identified the problem right there, confusing
courtesy to colleagues with "butt-kissing". I do know that under
no circumstances would I make sweeping, self-righteous charges
against _all_ ufologists - not if I expected to be heard. In
ufology as in life, serious, intellectually engaged people come
to different conclusions about complex issues, and if progress
is to be accomplished - not to mention professional comity - a
degree of mutual respect is surely desirable and even essential.

>dull and technical, dealing with scientific methodological
>issues hardly warranting the opprobrium I got. We will have to
>agree to disagree on this and I will remain as puzzled as ever.
>If my criticism was too "sweeping" it is simple enough to quote
>someone in the UFO community who has put forward some pro-ETH
>modeling that improves upon SETI's offerings that were done in
>an effort to refute both ETH and UFO reality. As I say Stan
>Friedman has countered the SETI criticism but no one in the UFO
>world so far as I know has done some "positive campaigning"
>instead of just "negative campaigning" against SETI. Jacques
>Vallee put forward some numbers in rough modeling of ETH in his
>5 arguments against ETH. That's about it. I would love to see
>more, that is continually built upon. But I hope that it doesn't
>all turn on the question of whether it has a pro-ETH or anti-ETH
>result. Objective scholars should be able to report negative
>findings on ETH if that is what they turn out to be. And
>negative findings could turn positive with more work (look at
>SETI arguments, with improvements they could be turned pro-ETH).

As its critics both inside and outside ufology have observed on
a number of occasions, SETI sometimes resembles a religious
movement more than a scientific one, with its own share of
failed prophecies. The failed prophecies involve the projected
success of the program within a specified period of time. Back
in the early 1990s, for example, Frank Drake (if memory serves)
confidently predicted contact with ET civilizations within five
years. The other day, I heard a SETI scientist declare his
certainty that it will happen in the next 20. Uh huh. All that
will come of this, after the failures no longer become
rationalizable, is the prospect that some young, iconoclastic
scientist will finally say, Well, if we looked at some actual
evidence, such as what ufologists have in their files, maybe
we'll find something that we haven't found before. In terms of
history's judgment, I'd far rather be a ufologist empiricist
than a SETI wishful thinker.

And no, Brad, that doesn't mean ufology has no shortage of
problems. Nor does it mean that we shouldn't criticize those
problems, as I have spent my life in this field doing, as an
extensive paper trail documents. Nor does it mean that you are
wrong about this or anything else, or that your views are not to
be heard and taken seriously.

>I could say the same thing having read this just after returning
>from a scientific meeting at UCLA, and chuckling at how UFO
>research is never going to get anywhere if we cannot even agree
>on working to improve its methodology, instead of defending the
>status quo.

Since I have spent my adult life as a ufologist trying to get
ufology to "improve its methodology" and allying myself with
those who feel the same, I am at a loss to understand what
you're saying. If you reread my earlier post, you will find that
all I was doing was explaining why ufologists handle or do not
handle the ETH the way they do for certain rather clear
historical, strategic, and ideological reasons, and that these
reasons make a certain degree of sense and merit more than
unthinking scorn. If ufologists agreed on methodology, they
would have a certain broad agreement on the nature of the
problem they confront, and they don't. And that is surely
understandable.

 >>Since the 1960s, as historians of the subject and more-than-
>>casual observers know well, ufology and the ETH have hardly
>>been synonymous. They are synonymous only in outsiders' - and
>>usually unsympathetic outsiders' - representation of what
>>ufologists think and do. One can read far more about
>>ufologists' supposed obsession with the ETH in debunking (and
>>ridicule-laced) publications such as Magonia and Skeptical
>>Inquirer than in actual UFO literature. Before the likes of
>>Swords and Ashpole, consequential writing within our field, with
>>the honorable exception of Stan Friedman's, had become scarce.
>>Even now, ETH writing in the published literature is rare. I
>>exclude contactee and Dark Side mythology from the just-stated,
>>obviously.

>Here we go again with the extreme empiricism. Are you saying
>that any theoretical work on UFO's is now "rare" because it is
>seen as threatening the survival of UFO research due to the
>unfair identification UFO = ETH as synonymous?? But invalid
>theoretical reasoning like that which equates UFO = ETH is no
>excuse to just throttle all theoretical work. That is why the
>UFO community needs to do its own UFO theoretical work on the
>ETH so it will ensure a "fairer hearing" on such issues.

Excellent theoretical work appears in Mike Swords's several
papers on ufology and the ETH. I encourage others to follow in
his footsteps. At the same time, it is my judgment, for reasons
already expressed, that theory-making cannot be ufology's first
priority

>>Debunkers asserted that since
>>ufologists couldn't prove the ETH, there was no reason to take
>>UFO sightings seriously and to investigate them accordingly.
>>Ufologists, quite naturally, came to the conclusion that since
>>indeed we can't prove the ETH (or any other hypothesis about the
>>nature of the phenomenon), it is wisest - both intellectually
>>and strategically - to concentrate on data-gathering. They were
>>led to argue (as in fact I did a couple of weeks ago in a
>>conversation with a producer from the news division of a major
>>broadcast network) that UFO reports are best seen as modestly as
>>possible: as questions for investigation, not as subjects for
>>sweeping speculation. If a single puzzling report is brought to
>>a potentially intrigued scientist, it is frankly stupid to
>>present it as possible evidence for a staggering claim; rather,
>>it's best brought forth as a puzzle which, if solved, might
>>teach us something new, possibly even important, and no more.

>Once again it's this either/or: Either extreme theoreticism
>(the actual term is "idealism" but would be misunderstood here)
>or extreme empiricism. Theory and observation are supposed to
>work together in an interactive synergistic fashion. You are
>taking it that ETH theoretical work is going to be done in a
>SETI way, standing aloof and judgmentally condemning UFO
>observations. Well that isn't the way theory and observation
>usually work in science anyway and once again, if the UFO
>community did its own theory development you wouldn't such a
>problem of disparaging the UFO data.

>Scientists get put off when someone tries to push "data" on them
>that they see no theoretical framework for interpreting. It's
>like giving them a painting of a house without blueprints,
>tools, or materials and telling them "Now build us a house!"
> You are telling them to build the foundation for a brand new
>science all from scratch! It is highly unlikely that any single
>scientist is capable of doing that, Isaac Newton style, even if
>they wanted to. They need a community of something like on the
>order of a hundred equally capable colleagues. If you had some
>theoretical framework built already, you might be able to
>attract some scientists who can see a way to build on that
>foundation, that it wouldn't look so hopeless.

I think - unoriginally - that the core problem ufologists face
is that they lack resources.As you noted wisely not long ago, in
all the history of ufology, probably six months of actual
science has been committed to the problem. Ufologists will not
solve the UFO mystery; it's way, way too big for them.
Therefore, if the project on which ufology is focused is to
succeed, it has to be taken up by scientists, who do have the
training, resources, institutional support, and all the rest of
the stuff on which real science draws to do its work.

In my judgment ufologists should work toward the end of making
themselves obsolete. In other words, they need to make the case
that there is an interesting investigatable problem which
scientists could usefully take up (and therefore relieve
ufologists of).

It is all well and good to talk in some abstract way about
theory and data in normal science, but ufology long ago ceased
to be an ordinary scientific question. Actually, few scientists
are willing to acknowledge that it is a scientific problem at
all, much less a window into the workings of an alien
intelligence Therefore....

We will accomplish ufology's purpose - its own extinction - only
with good data, removed from toxic theoretical associations
(e.g., utterly predictable, ridicule-laced charges that the
scientist in question is "looking for little green men" as
opposed to studying puzzling observations and traces). Anything
else, however desirable (and I have no quarrel with thoughtful
theorizing; as a ufologist and thinker, I value it), has to be
secondary. If I had to predict who will win the race in the end
- SETI (all theory) and ufology (all data) - I'd have no problem
placing a large bet on the second. SETI's extinction will be its
failure, ufology's extinction its success.


Jerry Clark