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   Aug

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Aug 2004

  Aug 1:

   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Brock - Rod Brock [45]
   World Of The Strange Newsletter - 08-01-04 - Louise Lowry [441]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Brock - Rod Brock [116]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [6]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks - Brad Sparks [74]
   HBCCUFO Research Recently Reported - 07-31-04 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   [581]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Sheryl Gottschall [16]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Sheryl Gottschall [5]
   Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Scheldroup - John Scheldroup [51]
   Dr. Poher's Mexican Airforce UFO Video Analysis - John Elliott [35]
   Re: Filers Files #32 - 2004 - Joe McGonagle [10]
   Investigator Takes Comfort In "We Are Not Alone" - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [80]
   Re: UFO Mystery Hovers Over And Divides Quiet Town - Terry Groff [106]
   Re: Apollo 16 Film - Franz - Capt Alejandro Franz [12]
   Spacey Lifestyle Draws Curious - Terry Groff [82]
   Re: Apollo 16 Film - Ledger - Don Ledger [2]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [46]
   Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [8]
   Michael Horn On Meir On C2C - UFO UpDates - Toronto [111]
   Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO\ [29]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Ray Stanford [269]
   Brazilian Astronaut Joins UFO Organisation - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista
   UFO [21]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark - Jerome Clark [21]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - King - Kyle King [6]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Richard Hall [23]
   Re: Apollo 16 Film - King - Kyle King [3]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Groff - Terry Groff [18]
   NASA Unveils Radical New Space Shuttle Design - Terry Groff [69]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King [24]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Greg Sandow [40]
   Re: Dr. Poher's Mexican Airforce UFO Video - Bruce Maccabee [22]

  Aug 2:

   More Daytime UFOs Videoed - Barry Taylor [9]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - King - Kyle King [15]
   Re: riedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks - Brad Sparks [58]
   Re: Varginha Again - Hall - Richard Hall [5]
   Re: Detecting UFOs Through 'Passive' Radar - Hatch - Larry Hatch [27]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - King - Kyle King [10]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [36]
   Davenport & Passive Radar SDI Interview OnLine - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [13]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - Deardorff - Ray Stanford [17]
   Find The Copycats - Larry Hatch [30]
   CCCRN News: Formation Report #6 - Grand Forks BC - Paul Anderson [30]
   Re: Varginha Again - Sanchez-Ocejo - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [14]

  Aug 3:

   Re: Apollo 16 Film - Ratsch - Donald Ratsch [85]
   Re: ETH Modeling - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [21]
   Re: Question About Artists AndAbductees/Contactees - Greg Boone [14]
   Universons' Model On UFO Study - Larry Hatch [47]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Diane Harrison [41]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Allan - Christopher Allan [10]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Hale - Roy Hale [22]
   Re: Varginha Again - Hale - Roy Hale [10]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Ray Stanford [105]
   Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Sparks - Brad Sparks [3]
   Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed - Shell - Tim Shell [3]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Allan - Christopher Allan [36]
   Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Shell - Tim Shell [33]
   Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [18]
   Humanoid Updates - 07-04 - Albert Rosales [1442]
   Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [6]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark - Jerome Clark [23]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Sheryl Gottschall [13]
   Re: Question About Artists And - John Rimmer [27]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Ray Stanford [15]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Rimmer - John Rimmer [19]
   Re: Varginha Again - Denzler - Brenda Denzler [5]
   X-PPAC Update - August 2, 2004 - Stephen Bassett [68]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [16]
   Re: Davenport & Passive Radar SDI Interview OnLine - Eleanor White [14]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [8]
   Re: Varginha Again - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [14]
   Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [32]
   Re: NASA Unveils Radical New Space Shuttle Design - John Scheldroup
   [24]
   Need Copy Of UFO Magazine - Royce J. Myers III [7]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King [61]
   Re: Dr. Poher's Mexican Airforce UFO Video - Brad Sparks [182]
   Secrecy News -- 08/03/04 - Steven Aftergood [174]
   Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF - Alfred Lehmberg [16]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 31 - John Hayes [287]
   Re: Question About Artists AndAbductees/Contactees - Richard Hall [9]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Ledger - Don Ledger [10]
   Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Shell - Tim Shell [3]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Albrektson - Erik Albrektson [34]
   Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed - King - Kyle King [4]
   Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Sparks - Brad Sparks [6]
   Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [18]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King [7]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King [3]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell - Tim Shell [8]
   SDI's Interview With Dr. Jacobs & 'The Threat' - Greg Boone [34]
   Cold War Classified Skyhook Program - Terry W. Colvin [9]

  Aug 4:

   Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Stanford - Ray Stanford [35]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Ray Stanford [6]
   Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [22]
   Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Albrektson - Erik Albrektson [34]
   Re: ETH Modeling - Sparks - Brad Sparks [35]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Harrison - Diane Harrison [29]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Ray Stanford [37]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - King - Kyle King [35]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Ray Stanford [132]
   Analysis Of Centerville Ohio 'Tree Debris' - Kenny Young [10]
   Saucer-Like Object Seen Over Sweden 1953 - Rod Brock [85]
   What To Tell The Press & Public When Asked? - Greg Boone [17]
   Re: Detecting UFOs Through 'Passive' Radar - Shough - Martin Shough [4]
   Disclosure Australia Announcement 16 - Diane Harrison [18]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Allan - Christopher Allan [15]
   Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed - Taylor - Barry Taylor [25]
   Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes - Greg Boone [19]
   Re: Detecting UFOs Through 'Passive' Radar - Peter Davenport - NUFORC
   [106]
   Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - King - Kyle King [11]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - King - Kyle King [21]
   Re: Varginha Again - Sparks - Brad Sparks [16]
   Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Sparks - Brad Sparks [48]
   Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [15]
   Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [14]
   Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Stanford - Ray Stanford [24]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell - Tim Shell [11]
   Re: ETH Modeling - Clark - Jerome Clark [13]
   Filer's Files #33 -- 2004 - George A. Filer [513]
   Secrecy News -- 08/04/2004 - Steven Aftergood [64]
   Mersin Police Record So-Called UFO Images - Eustaquio Andrea Patounas
   [21]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks - Brad Sparks [11]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King [28]
   New Mars Rover UFO Photos - Tim Shell [20]
   Re: Varginha Again - King - Kyle King [13]
   Re: Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF - - Nicholas Redfern
   [59]

  Aug 5:

   Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [24]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Ray Stanford [122]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - King - Kyle King [16]
   Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos - Groff - Terry Groff [13]
   Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos - Hall - Richard Hall [11]
   Re: ETH Modeling - King - Kyle King [31]
   Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed - King - Kyle King [31]
   Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Terry W. Colvin [45]
   Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes - Kyle King [15]
   Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground - Lan Fleming [24]
   Re: ETH Modeling - Sparks - Brad Sparks [163]
   The Truth Is Still Out There - Terry W. Colvin [129]
   Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes - Rod Brock [17]
   UFO Sightings Rise - Terry Groff [47]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [28]
   Turkish UFO Hoax No Joking Matter - UFO UpDates - Toronto [50]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [36]
   Re: ETH Modeling - Clark - Jerome Clark [12]
   Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos - Shell - Tim Shell [7]
   Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos - Shell - Tim Shell [7]
   Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos - Groff - Terry Groff [14]
   Re: ETH Modeling - Clark - Jerome Clark [30]

  Aug 6:

   Canada On Pace To Top UFO Sightings Record| - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [70]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell - Tim Shell - [22]
   Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Shell - Tim Shell - [3]
   Secrecy News -- 08/05/04 - Steven Aftergood - [177]
   East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings - Rod Brock - [115]
   Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings - Rod Brock - [23]
   UFO Community Bashing - Greg Boone - [43]
   The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Greg Boone - [46]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King - Kyle King - [10]
   Re: ETH Modeling - King - Kyle King - [28]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Greg Boone - [30]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Sheryl Gottschall - [5]
   Varginha - Gevaerd Bourdais & Pratt - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO -
   [43]
   Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed - Taylor - Barry Taylor - [20]
   HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO -
   [498]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Sheryl Gottschall - [61]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Harrison - Diane Harrison - [56]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - King - Kyle King - [19]
   Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - King - Kyle King - [5]
   Re: Secrecy News -- 08/05/04 - King - Kyle King - [4]
   Re: ETH Modeling - Clark - Jerome Clark - [7]
   Re: Varginha - Gevaerd Bourdais & Pratt - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais -
   [7]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Richard Hall - [20]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Greg Sandow [8]
   Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Shell - Tim Shell [10]
   Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings - - Ray Stanford [41]

  Aug 7:

   Winnipeg Sightings Soar Over Last 48 Hours - UFO UpDates - Toronto [40]
   Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings - - Ray Stanford [41]
   Chile: Monsters or Ostriches? - Scott Corrales [68]
   Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Stanford - Ray Stanford [7]
   Re: Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF - - Max Burns [82]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Brock - Rod Brock [82]
   Re: UFO Community Bashing - Rimmer - John Rimmer [28]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Harney - John Harney [5]
   Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes - Eleanor White [17]
   Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Stanford - Ray Stanford [24]
   Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings - - Rod Brock [46]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Ray Stanford [151]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Sheryl Gottschall [8]
   Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings - - Jim Deardorff [27]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming - Lan Fleming [34]
   Press Release - NUFOC - 08-07-04 - Stephen Bassett [42]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Allan - Christopher Allan [43]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Bruce Maccabee [22]

  Aug 8:

   Military UFO Video Could Be Key To Credibility - Capt. Alejandro Franz
   [131]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Scheldroup - John Scheldroup [75]
   Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [7]
   Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes - Richard Hall [9]
   A Paper: The Year 1954 In Photos - Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos [15]
   Re: UFO Community Bashing - Lehmber - Alfred Lehmberg [15]
   Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [43]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Sheryl Gottschall [10]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Ray Dickenson [15]
   Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes - Don Ledger [11]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Hale - Roy Hale [8]
   Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings - - Ray Stanford [13]
   Re: Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF - - Nicholas Redfern
   [54]
   Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings - - Ray Stanford [11]
   Possible Mothman Photo? - Barry Taylor [15]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Sparks - Brad Sparks [10]
   Re: Question About Artists And - John Rimmer [9]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer - John Rimmer [22]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer - John Rimmer [16]
   Things Are Looking Up With UFO Watch Tower - Frank Warren [114]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [18]
   The MUFON Conundrum - Part I - Michael Brownlee [128]
   Dr. Salla - Gary Matteson [41]
   Re: Follow Up On Origin Of Term 'Grays' - Pope - Nick Pope [11]
   Re: UFO Community Bashing - Klass - Phil Klass [8]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Brock - Rod Brock [24]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Ray Stanford [24]

  Aug 9:

   HBCC UFO Research Regular Radio Appearances - Brian VIke - HBCC UFO
   [36]
   Re: ETH Modeling - Sparks - Brad Sparks [81]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming - Lan Fleming [31]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks - Brad Sparks [6]
   Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part I - White - Eleanor White [60]
   Klass Not Yet In The Cemetary [was: Re: UFO - Don Ledger [9]
   Bill Moore On Radio Misterioso Tonight - Stephen MILES Lewis [40]
   Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Stanford - Ray Stanford [113]
   Re: Dr. Salla - Hall - Richard Hall [16]
   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Hatch - Larry Hatch [12]
   Re: Klass Not Yet In The Cemetary - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [20]
   Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Zachary - Billy Zachary [11]
   Extrasolar Planets - Joe McGonagle [23]
   Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings - - Jim Deardorff [31]
   Re: Klass Not Yet In The Cemetary - Scheldroup - John Scheldroup [28]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Clark - Jerome Clark [11]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Hale - Roy Hale [23]
   CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial - Greg Boone [10]
   New *U* UFO Database Map Of Scandanavia - Larry Hatch [16]
   Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - King - Kyle King [24]
   Re: HBCC UFO Research Regular Radio Appearances - - Alfred Lehmberg
   [18]
   UFO photographed With A Celular Phone - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO
   [18]
   Re: ETH Modeling - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [36]
   Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part I - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [43]
   Re: Dr. Salla - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [4]
   Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Shell - Tim Shell [10]
   Re: ETH Modeling - Clark - Jerome Clark [18]
   Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For - Tim Shell [3]
   Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For - Alfred Lehmberg [27]
   Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Miller - Stuart Miller [9]

  Aug 10:

   Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees - Diane Harrison
   [165]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Ray Stanford [30]
   Re: A Paper: The Year 1954 In Photos - Groff - Terry Groff [6]
   Woman Builds UFO Attractor - Terry Groff [13]
   Re: Dr. Salla - King - Kyle King [6]
   Re: UFO photographed With A Celular Phone - Shell - Tim Shell [8]
   Re: Dr. Salla - King - Kyle King [10]
   Re: Dr. Salla - Brock - Rod Brock [122]
   Lights Over Phoenix Site? - Louise Nicolaides [16]
   Re: Dr. Salla - Hall - Richard Hall [11]
   Re: ETH Modelling - Kelleher - Colm Kelleher [16]
   Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings - - Ray Stanford [64]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Allan - Christopher Allan [8]
   Re: FO Photographed With A Cellular Phone - Ledger - Don Ledger [4]
   Whither MUFON At The Crossroads Of Ufology? - Larry W. Bryant [20]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer - John Rimmer [19]
   Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Stanford - Ray Stanford [48]
   Re: Dr. Salla - Matteson - Gary Matteson [2]
   The MUFON Conundrum - Part II - Michael Brownlee [106]
   Re: Perseid Meteor Shower - Stanford - Ray Stanford [13]
   Re: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone - Booth - Billy Booth [4]
   Factsheet On Salla's Termination - Rod Brock [34]
   Re: Extrasolar Planets - Sparks - Brad Sparks [8]

  Aug 11:

   Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For - Josh Goldstein [21]
   Re: ETH Modeling - Sparks - Brad Sparks [109]
   Explorers Find UFO Fragments In Tunguska - Frank Warren [60]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 32 - John Hayes [470]
   Chances Of Aliens Finding Earth Disappearing - William Wise [70]
   Paul Davies Proposes GSETI - William Wise [113]
   Black Vault Radio Network Premiers - John Greenewald, Jr. [41]
   HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 08-10-04 - Brian Vike [453]
   Re: Close-Up Photos - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [18]
   Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [4]
   Burisch Story Exposed - Royce J. Myers III [6]
   More Mysterious Lights Over Ticul Mexico - Scott Corrales [37]
   UFO Reported Over Progreso Mexico - Scott Corrales [18]
   Filers Files #34 - 2004 - George A. Filer [567]

  Aug 12:

   In-Home Abduction Detection? - Eleanor White [41]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 426 - Edoardo Russo [102]
   'Keel' Investigates Body In Pascagoula Mobile Home - Loren Coleman [24]
   Dr. Salla At Sky Island Ranch - Rod Brock [35]
   Re: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd -
   Revista UFO [5]
   Re: UFO photographed With A Celular Phone - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd -
   Revista UFO [9]
   Russians Claim To Have Found Remains Of Craft - Steven Kaeser [21]
   Re: UFO Photographed With A Cellular Phone - - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista
   UFO [6]
   Re: Factsheet On Salla's Termination - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [9]
   Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II - Brock - Rod Brock [25]

  Aug 13:

   Re: Factsheet On Salla's Termination - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [20]
   Re: Explorers Find UFO Fragments In Tunguska - - Rod Brock [27]
   Re: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone - King - Kyle King [23]
   Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For - Kyle King [13]
   Re: ETH Modeling - Clark - Jerome Clark [11]
   Re: Chances Of Aliens Finding Earth Disappearing - - Stanton Friedman
   [24]
   Re: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [13]
   Inevitable Tunguska Backlash From Scientists - Dante Rosati [8]
   Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [46]
   Grenada - Lan Fleming [31]
   Even Drudge Report Highlights Tunguska Story - Greg Boone [16]
   Roswell Debris & 'Smart Skin' - Greg Boone [7]
   Alien Toy Mistaken For Human Foetus - Geoff Dittman [86]
   Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings - - Jim Deardorff [17]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming - Lan Fleming [27]
   Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For - Lan Fleming [6]
   Re: Russians Claim To Have Found Remains Of Craft - Lan Fleming [8]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Greg Sandow [28]
   The MUFON Conundrum - Part III - Michael Brownlee [176]
   Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II - Bassett - Stephen Basset [40]
   Beam Me Out Scotty - The Farewell Dinner - UFO UpDates - Toronto [17]
   HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 06-12-04 - Brian Vike - [353]
   Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Gates - Robert Gates [62]
   Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For - Josh Goldstein [28]
   Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Alfred Lehmberg [149]
   SCI FI Channel New UFO Series - Santiago Yturria [23]

  Aug 14:

   Re: Question About Artists And - Ray Dickenson [19]
   Descredit To The Field? [was: Factsheet On Salla's - Richard Hall [18]
   Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings - - Ray Stanford [21]
   Re: Grenada - Greg Boone [25]
   Re: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [11]
   China To Launch Moon Probe In 2 Years - John Scheldroup [41]
   Re: Factsheet On Salla's Termination - Brock - Rod Brock [16]
   6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo - Victoria Jack [46]
   Re: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone - Ledger - Don Ledger [13]
   UK UFO Video - What's What's Up With This? - Greg Boone [24]
   Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings - - David Rudiak [71]
   Why Not? - Greg Boone [39]
   Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II - Brock - Rod Brock [71]
   Re: Even Drudge Report Highlights Tunguska Story - - Don Ledger [30]
   Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Hebert - Amy Hebert [27]
   Re: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI - King - Kyle King [50]
   Re: Chances Of Aliens Finding Earth Disappearing - - Kyle King [61]
   Re: Burisch Story Exposed - King - Kyle King [20]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 427 - Edoardo Russo [105]
   Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For - John Scheldroup [5]
   Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For - Greg Boone [44]
   Re: A Paper: The Year 1954 In Photos - Olmos - Vicente-Juan Ballester
   Olmos [16]
   The Iron Giant Worth A Look - Greg Boone [17]
   Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For - Kyle King [45]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer - John Rimmer [28]
   Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Rimmer - John Rimmer [6]
   Nick Pope On UK James Whale's Show - Nick Pope [12]
   Re: Descredit To The Field? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [22]
   Hatch's Hatches Vol.1 #? - Larry Hatch [123]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Greg Sandow [50]

  Aug 15:

   Re: The Iron Giant Worth A Look - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [13]
   Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [16]
   Re: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [31]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Mori - Kentaro Mori [19]
   Re: Descredit To The Field? - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [42]
   Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Stanford - Ray Stanford [6]
   The Brocking Report - Stuart Miller [18]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Larry Hatch [29]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming - Lan Fleming [88]
   The 'Living The Field' Conference - Roy Hale [130]
   Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Gates - Robert Gates [41]
   Serpent Mound To Mothman - Loren Coleman [221]
   UK's $850 Million UFO Park - Greg Boone [7]
   The MUFON Conundrum - Part IV - Michael Brownlee [350]
   CCCRN News: Formation Report #7 - Grand Bend - Paul Anderson [43]
   Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Rimmer - John Rimmer [5]
   Re: Descredit To The Field? - Hall - Richard Hall [33]
   Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [17]
   Re: Question About Artists And - Jerome Clark [19]

  Aug 16:

   Re: Question About Artists And - Ray Dickenson [17]
   Re: The Brocking Report - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [24]
   The Trindade Photos & Motion Blur - Lan Fleming [73]
   Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Rimmer - John Rimmer [18]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Sparks - Brad Sparks [53]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming - Lan Fleming [35]
   Re: Serpent Mound To Mothman - Stanford - Ray Stanford [101]

  Aug 17:

   NM Gov. Richardson Digs For More UFO Disclosure - Greg Boone [13]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [21]
   Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [8]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Mori - Kentaro Mori [51]
   Re: The Brocking Report - Miller - Stuart Miller [12]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Mori - Kentaro Mori [9]
   Strange Object From Sky Weather Balloon - Greg Boone [25]
   CCCRN News: 'Amoeba' Photo Anomaly - Grand Bend ON - Paul Anderson [28]
   Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [30]
   Brunswick Photos & Angel Hair - Ed Gehrman [46]
   New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Alfred Lehmberg [96]
   Re: The Trindade Photos & Motion Blur - Shough - Martin Shough [22]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough - Martin Shough [29]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough - Martin Shough [15]
   HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 08-15-04 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   [348]
   Crikey Another Plagiarist! - Larry Hatch [31]
   Re: The Trindade Photos & Motion Blur - Fleming - Lan Fleming [53]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 33 - John Hayes [461]
   Re: The Brocking Report - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [61]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark - Jerome Clark [17]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Boone - Greg Boone [36]
   Additions To SDI Archive - UFO UpDates - Toronto [16]

  Aug 18:

   Re: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - - Nick Balaskas [19]
   UFOIA Galore In FATE Magazine - Larry W. Bryant [15]
   Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Boone - Greg Boone [18]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Michael Bilodeau [7]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming - Lan Fleming [16]
   World Of The Strange Newsletter - 08-15-04 - Louse Lowry [339]
   Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo - Jack - Victoria Jack [11]
   Letter-To-Editor Of The Roswell Daily Record - Larry W. Bryant [75]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough - Martin Shough [64]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer - John Rimmer [20]
   Filers Files #35 -- 2004 - George A. Filer [563]

  Aug 19:

   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Groff - Terry Groff [16]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [82]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark - Jerome Clark [8]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Ledger - Don Ledger [4]
   Ship Serves As Home & UFO Center - Terry Groff [65]
   New Book: The Kelly Incident - Terry Groff [49]
   Re: Filers Files #35 -- 2004 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [11]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough - Martin Shough [35]
   Re: Letter-To-Editor Of The Roswell Daily Record - - Greg Sandow [23]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King - Kyle King [70]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Miller - Stuart Miller [45]

  Aug 20:

   Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [84]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming - Lan Fleming [27]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [25]
   The Black Vault Radio Goes Live - John Greenewald, Jr. - The Black
   Vault [41]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall - Richard Hall [28]
   Governor Richardson Calls For Answers To UFO - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [40]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Michael Bilodeau [66]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark - Jerome Clark [34]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King - Kyle King [6]

  Aug 21:

   Re: lose Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King - Kyle King [43]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [18]
   Sisyphus Revisted - Greg Boone [13]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough - Martin Shough [13]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer - John Rimmer [5]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer - John Rimmer [40]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Michael Bilodeau [36]

  Aug 22:

   Memory and Manipulation - UFO UpDates - Toronto [525]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Kyle King [17]
   Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [164]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King - Kyle King [17]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [24]
   Pravda: Tunguska UFO Op-Ed Piece - Greg Boone [41]
   Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter - Greg Boone [92]
   Editorial On Recent Roswell Events - Greg Boone [38]
   Another Roswell Editorial Piece - Greg Boone [84]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall - Richard Hall [47]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Connors - Wendy Connors [15]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King - Kyle King [33]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney - John Harney [26]
   Re: Sisyphus Revisted - King - Kyle King [50]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - King - Kyle King [26]
   The Mothman Prophecies On TNT - Loren Coleman [14]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [30]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall - Richard Hall [21]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark - Jerome Clark [40]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [32]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [18]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Miller - Stuart Miller [32]
   Roswell Roswell Roswell - Jan Aldrich [53]

  Aug 23:

   Re: Brunswick Photos & Angel Hair - Hale - Roy Hale [22]
   Re: Roswell Roswell Roswell - Greg Boone [38]
   Write That Editorial And Op Ed Piece - Greg Boone [22]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney - John Harney [33]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer - John Rimmer [28]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer - John Rimmer [20]
   Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Rimmer - John Rimmer [69]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [19]
   Re: Memory and Manipulation - Bueche - Will Bueche [55]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King - Kyle King [51]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King - Kyle King [14]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King - Kyle King [46]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming - Lan Fleming [39]
   1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [58]
   Re: Pravda: Tunguska UFO Op-Ed Piece - King - Kyle King [14]
   Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter - - Kyle King [13]
   Quoting From Previous List-Posts - UFO UpDates - Toronto [8]
   Moon Questions - Kyle King [29]
   HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 08-22-04 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   [512]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark - Jerome Clark [6]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Connors - Wendy Connors [20]
   Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Groff - Terry Groff [26]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall - Richard Hall [19]
   Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? - - Terry Groff [8]

  Aug 24:

   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [4]
   Re: Moon Questions - Groff - Terry Groff [12]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Weber - Bill Weber [14]
   Re: Barry Taff? - Burns - Chris Burns [19]
   Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough - Martin Shough [30]
   Re: Moon Questions - Shough - Martin Shough [3]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King - Kyle King [37]
   Reflections On Gravity - Sheryl Gottschall [7]
   Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? - - Kyle King [5]
   Gravity Anomalies Still Unexplained - Terry W. Colvin [109]
   Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? - - Colin Stevenson [9]
   Edgar Mitchell On UFOs & ETs - Torbjorn Sassersson [29]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [90]
   UFO Triangle Formation Melbourne Australia - John Auchettl [39]
   Re: Moon Questions - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [19]
   Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? - - Alfred Lehmberg [4]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [13]
   Re: Edgar Mitchell On UFOs & ETs - Shell - Bob Shell [4]
   Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? - - Alfred Lehmberg [12]
   Re: Moon Questions - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [4]

  Aug 25:

   Baylor Professor Studies Unusual Claims - UFO UpDates - Toronto [112]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 34 - John Hayes [517]
   Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? - - Kyle King [30]
   Re: Edgar Mitchell On UFOs & ETs - King - Kyle King [7]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee
   [57]
   Re: Moon Questions - King - Kyle King [18]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rudiak - David Rudiak [23]
   Vallee On Physics Of High Strangeness - Terry W. Colvin [23]
   Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? - - Kyle King [8]
   Skeptic Blackmore Calls It Quits? - Greg Boone [7]
   Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Frank Warren [71]
   Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [9]
   Earl D. Jones Passes - Loren Coleman [68]
   Re: Moon Questions - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [13]
   Re: Moon Questions - Shell - Tim Shell [8]
   Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? - - Alfred Lehmberg [56]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark - Jerome Clark [10]

  Aug 26:

   Filers Files #36 - 2004 - George A. Filer [605]
   'Mothman' Director's Wife Dies - Loren Coleman [32]
   X-Files Dean Haglund On Black Vault Radio - John Greenewald - The Black
   Vault [72]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [6]
   Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? - - Kyle King [48]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney - John Harney [10]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney - John Harney [21]
   Article "Flying Saucers Are Fun!" - Greg Boone [6]
   Secrecy News -- 08/25/04 - Steven Aftergood [100]
   Re: UFO Triangle Formation Melbourne Australia - - Diane Harrison [17]
   Disclosure Australia Announcement 17 - Diane Harrison [23]
   Newest AUFORN UFO Photo - Diane Harrison [8]
   CI: Pravda Gets It Wrong - Mac Tonnies [56]
   Re: Moon Questions - King - Kyle King [20]
   Re: Moon Questions - King - Kyle King [34]
   Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo - Jack - Victoria Jack [46]
   Melbourne UFO Triangle Formation Videos - John Auchettl [28]
   Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [9]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark - Jerome Clark [46]

  Aug 27:

   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney - John Harney [21]
   Re: Moon Questions - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [23]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee
   [21]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Friedman - Stanton Friedman
   [22]
   HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 08-26-04 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   [370]
   Strange Doings On Tunguska - Terry Groff [68]
   Re: UFO Triangle Formation Melbourne Australia - - Billy Booth [5]
   Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Warren - Frank Warren [11]
   UFO Photo Taken With Cell Phone Is A Hoax - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO
   [15]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Alfred Lehmberg [190]
   Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo - Hatch - Larry Hatch [5]
   Re: Moon Questions - King - Kyle King [19]
   Re: Moon Questions - Groff - Terry Groff [13]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Reason - Cathy Reason [19]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark - Jerome Clark [61]
   Buying UFO Books - Isaac Koi [258]
   The Price Of Secrecy - Dante Rosati [13]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Ledger - Don Ledger [7]
   Secrecy News -- 08/27/04 - Steven Aftergood [126]
   Re: Moon Questions - Ledger - Don Ledger [4]
   CCCRN News: Formation Reports 8 & 9 - Matsqui, BC - Paul Anderson [31]
   Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Friedman - Stanton Friedman
   [10]

  Aug 28:

   UFOs Reported At Dryden Ontario - Terry Groff [35]
   Re: Moon Questions - Christensen - Wendy Christensen [8]
   A Quantum Leap Of Faith - UFO UpDates - Toronto [89]
   Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Ledger - Don Ledger [10]
   Alert - Mothman On 'CBS News Sunday Morning' - Loren Coleman [18]
   Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc. - Alfred Lehmberg [40]
   Re: UFO Photo Taken With Cell Phone Is A Hoax - - Larry Hatch [19]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [13]
   Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [8]
   NIDS FT Report - Larry Hatch [17]
   Re: Moon Questions - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [12]
   Re: Buying UFO Books - Hayes - John Hayes [17]

  Aug 29:

   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer - John Rimmer [10]
   Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [12]
   Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [8]
   Re: A Quantum Leap Of Faith - Hatch - Larry Hatch [20]
   UFO Photographs In The Former USSR? - Philip Mantle [7]
   Re: UFO Photo Taken With Cell Phone Is A Hoax - - Tim Shell [8]
   Re: Moon Questions - King - Kyle King [3]
   Re: Moon Questions - Shell - Tim Shell [9]
   Re: Moon Questions - King - Kyle King [9]
   Re: Moon Questions - King - Kyle King [14]
   Re: Moon Questions - King - Kyle King [7]
   Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - King - Kyle King [45]
   Re: NIDS FT Report - Ledger - Don Ledger [6]
   Re: A Quantum Leap Of Faith - Boone - Greg Boone [14]
   Re: Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc. - Boone - Greg Boone [17]
   Re: UFO Photo Taken With Cell Phone Is A Hoax - - Greg Boone [20]
   Old Long Island UFO Crash Story? - Greg Boone [101]
   Survival Center Alert Asteroid Toutatis 4179 - William H Bolt [114]
   Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo - Frola - Robert Frola [5]
   Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Warren - Frank Warren [14]
   Who's Bumping Off The Microbiologists? - Greg Boone [8]

  Aug 30:

   Re: Survival Center Alert Asteroid Toutatis 4179 - - Nick Pope [12]
   Re: Moon Questions - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [8]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [22]
   Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [11]
   Bentwaters Alert State - Nick Pope [40]
   Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Clark - Jerome Clark [10]
   Re: Survival Center Alert Asteroid Toutatis 4179 - - Joe McGonagle [6]
   Re: Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc. - Groff - Terry Groff [10]
   Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Ledger - Don Ledger [21]
   Re: Moon Questions - Ledger - Don Ledger [3]

  Aug 31:

   Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Ledger - Don Ledger [18]
   Hungarian UFO Photo? - Roy Hale [12]
   Venus' 'Erratic Movements'? - William Wise [19]
   Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo - Harrison - Diane Harrison [7]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney - John Harney [43]
   Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo - Hatch - Larry Hatch [3]
   Re: NIDS FT Report - Hatch - Larry Hatch [16]
   Jury Out On Wausau Crop Circles - UFO UpDates - Toronto [81]
   Sighting 08-28-04 Lancaster Ohio - Kenny Young [64]
   Re: Buying UFO Books - Pope - Nick Pope [12]
   Re: Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc. - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [9]
   Re: Moon Questions - King - Kyle King [32]
   Zen & Sagan & The Art Of Scientific Foot-Shooting - Greg Boone [11]
   Re: Moon Questions - King - Kyle King [6]
   New Mexico's Richardson Headed For More Trouble? - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [76]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [8]
   Humanoid Sighting Leaves Chilean Witnesses - Scott Corrales [42]
   HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings - - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   [513]
   Re: Moon Questions - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [19]
   Re: Moon Questions - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [11]
   Re: Microbiologist Death Question - Redfern - Nicholas Redfern [12]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Friedman - Stanton Friedman
   [26]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 1

              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Brock

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:03:20 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:17:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Brock


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:04:19 EDT
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>Well, how many times does this has to happen over the past 50+
>years before we "get it" and see the pattern? Credible seeming
>scientists, ranking military officers and others who suddenly
>spout off about crashed saucers, alien bodies, or live alien-
>government "meetings" or captures??

Hi, Brad,

I would like to address the above comment. Regarding other
elements of your latest response to me, I have no comment, as
yet.

I haven't sat down and made a list of "credible seeming
scientists, ranking military officers," etc., " who suddenly
spout off about crashed saucers," etc...., i.e.,who have "done
the dirty deed" over the last fifty years. If you have such a
list, lay it on me. I don't say that cynically, but seriously.
If you have such a list, I'd like to see it sometime, and hear
your rationale as to why each individual is on the list.

Let's make this explicit: You're seriously suggesting that these
are people who are deliberately concocting falsehoods so as to
discredit "serious ufology," and are (presumably) in the payola
of some government entity? If so, it still doesn't really sound
right - I mean, "ufology" is quite adept at doing a hack-and-
slash job on itself, considering the proliferation of starry-
eyed New Age types (the "anything goes" crowd), the ufologist
"posers", the "gold diggers," the "probably insane," the
"pathological liars," etc., ad nauseum. I'm not going to start
naming names, because that will just open multiple cans of
worms. Visit the "UFO Hall of Shame:"

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/hall1.html,

and consider that the people listed here are probably just the
tip of the iceberg, and are listed mainly because their idiocy
is so blatant.

Understand that my comments here are not intended as "debate,"
or to be condescending. They are simply my honest reactions and
thoughts in regard to the matter you have set forth.

Best,

Rod

=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 1

                 World Of The Strange Newsletter - 08-01-04

From: Louise Lowry <SHnSASSY1.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:36:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:29:48 -0400
Subject: World Of The Strange Newsletter - 08-01-04


World Of The Strange Newsletter - August 8/01/2004


World Of The Strange Newsletter
Edition: August 8/01/2004
Editor: TJ Elias
Email: para.nul
Web: http://www.worldofthestrange.com

###################
In this issue...

 #1. New attempt to unravel Tunguska mystery
 #2. Special Announcement(s)
 #3. UFO History Has Come Full Circle (By Larry W. Bryant)
 #4. Poll - Why don't we go back to the moon?
 #5. Feeling Is Believing? (By Lee Dye (ABCNEWS.com ))
 #6. New crater revives Moon mystery
 #7. Website Of The Month - The Why? Files Network (By: Neal -
   WOTS Staff)
 #8. Discussion Forum Focus
 #9. UFO WAR (Robert A. Goerman)
#10. Miscellaneous Commentary (By C.A. Honey)
#11. Anomalies Found in Roswell Metal (By: David E. Twichell)
#12. Why Don't Pilots See UFOs?
#13. Fatima Prophecies
#14. The Atlantis Tesla Connection on CD-ROM Disc



###################
Welcome To the WOTS Newsletter

Hello again from WorldOfTheStrange.com, your connection to the
paranormal world around us.

Visit the WorldOfTheStrange website. It contains breaking news
and interesting stories.

http://www.worldofthestrange.com


If you are viewing this and the links are not working, please go
to the website and view the newsletter. The links will work
there. Many email systems and web sites do not hyperlink the
links correctly (mainly because the links are so long).

This newsletter would not be possible without the contributions
of the authors and the research of our staff members, especially
Louise Lowry (WOTS founder and co-owner). Many thanks to you
all.


###################
#1. New attempt to unravel Tunguska mystery

New attempt to unravel Tunguska mystery

18:04 2004-07-23
A new expedition has headed from Krasnoyarsk to Evenkia (central
part of the vast Krasnoyarsk territory) to see into the real
nature of the phenomenon widely known as the Tunguska meteorite.

Researchers will seek material evidence denying the main version
of the century-old events. According to this version, a huge
meteorite fell down in the taiga on June 30, 1908.

"We intend to find proofs that not a meteorite but an
extraterrestrial spaceship clashed with the Earth," expedition
chief Yuri Labvin, heading the Tunguska Space Phenomenon public
foundation, told journalists.

Using metal detectors, 14 members of the expeditions want to
examine the taiga near Poligus township and the Stony Tunguska
River.

The search area is located 500 km to the west of the site where
previous expeditions were looking for the meteorite's remains.

According to Mr. Labvin, space photographs of this region show
the presence of metallic debris, which can be related to a
technogenic catastrophe, which occurred here 100 years ago.

The expedition will return to Krasnoyarsk on August 5.

Web link:

http://newsfromrussia.com/science/2004/07/23/55206.html


###################
#2. Special Announcement(s)

Due to popular request, we have added a new Video Download
feature to the WOTS website

Video Downloads section. In an effort to preserve our bandwidth,
full access to this section is available to site members. Non-
 members are welcome to browse and read the descriptions, but in
order to download the files, you must be a signed in member.
Remember, Membership is absolutely FREE.

Many thanks to those who requested this feature and to Louise
for her persistence in seeing that it was implemented.

If you have something that you would like to share with the WOTS
community, please let us know. If you send us a Video clip, we
can
post it to the site and give you full credit for it.


###################
#3. UFO History Has Come Full Circle (By Larry W. Bryant)

...During our documentary show-and-tell, the businessman passed
around photo-copies of a heretofore unpublicized, two- page,
"RESTRICTED" USAF telegram, dated Dec. 21, 1952. (The date has
special meaning for the businessman; for in that same year, he
and a couple of fellow students had witnessed a classic "flying
saucer" in the skies of Tennessee.)

Since the teletype message retains the identity of the two
fighter- pilot witnesses to the nighttime encounter, we can
conclude that the printout of this raw-intelligence report
somehow escaped the privacy sanitization that occurred upon USAF
Project Blue Book records' transfer to the U. S. National
Archives and Records Service. Indeed, according to the
businessman, he'd acquired his copy from a former communications
NCO of the 4418th Communications Group at Donaldson Air Force
Base in Greenville, S.C. Apparently, the airman had purloined
this copy as a souvenir from the worldwide UFO "flap" of
1952.
For more, see:

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/nlv1661.html


###################
#4. Poll - Why don't we go back to the moon?

Why don't we go back to the moon?

Cost too much
There is nothing else to see there
Aliens told us to stay away
We have been sending secret missions all along
We never went in the first place
Don't know


--
Vote on this and other polls

If you have a poll question that you would like hundreds of
people to answer, please send feedback to us and we may use you
question next month.

Web link:

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/surveys.html


###################
#5. Feeling Is Believing? (By Lee Dye (ABCNEWS.com ))

Researchers at Harvard University called on aliens from outer
space to help them solve a problem that surfaces frequently in
everything from therapeutic sessions to criminal trials, or even
just chatting with a friend. How do you know if someone is
telling the truth when he or she recalls memories of childhood
abuse, or being raped by satanic cults, or some other traumatic
insult?

One clue that many of us rely on is the emotional reaction of
the person telling the story. If the victim breaks out in sweat
and becomes extremely emotional while recalling those memories,
it's more difficult to dismiss them as false.

But all that really means is the person truly believes his or
her memories are true, not that they really are, according to
the researchers.

"The person really believes something happened," says Richard
McNally, a clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at
Harvard, lead author of a study in the July issue of
Psychological Science. "But that doesn't necessarily mean it
did."
For more, see:

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/nlv1667.html


###################
World Of The Strange Web Site

The World Of The Strange web site is working out very well. WOTS
has served over 1.8 Million web pages since August 1, 2003

We are pleased at how many of you have stopped in to visit and
even register to gain access to our special features. We are
serving over 200,000 page views per month and over 3,900
registered site users.

Visit us today and spread the word about the site. A great way
to do that is to forward this newsletter on to others who may
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forwarded a copy to me many years ago).

We do not resell or share our user information with anyone. The
information is maintained only to allow you access to the
premium features for the website.


http://www.worldofthestrange.com



###################
#6. New crater revives Moon mystery

A mysterious flash on the Moon caught on camera 50 years ago is
still provoking disagreements about its origin. Astronomer
Bonnie Buratti says her new results show that the flash was
caused by a 20- metre asteroid hitting the Moon.

If Buratti is right, such impacts may be more frequent than
thought - about once every 30 years on the Earth, and every 500
years on the Moon. But other asteroid watchers think the flash
was due to a small meteor burning up in Earth's atmosphere.

For more, see:

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/nlv1659.html


###################
#7. Website Of The Month - The Why? Files Network (By: Neal - WOTS
Staff)

"UFOs exist-like it or not very few people now deny their
existence" ----The Why ? Files Network

The Why? Files Network is a website, which dances with
electricity. The instant you enter the home page you become
dazzled and dizzy by the amount of information that this website
offers.

Established in September of 1999, The Why? Files main goal is to
introduce and orient the public to the UFO phenomenon. Through
first-hand accounts, theories and research, this site offers all
of the latest and up-to date information.

=46rom first-hand accounts of veteran pilots to those people most
familiar with some of the most controversial UFO stories, The
Why? Files Network is a compilation of writers, researchers and
photographers whose work will tantalize the palette of
Ufologists and drive the dedicated researcher into a paranormal
frenzy.

=46rom alien abductions to V-Shaped UFOs, The Why? Files is an
educational asset as well as useful tool to the UFO community
and her investigators.


----- c.Neal McLaughlin July 2004 - WOTS Editorial Staff

At 4-47 p.m. the object impacted in the woods close to the
village of KECKSBURG, Westmoreland County in south-western
Pennsylvania, about forty miles south-east of Pittsburgh. A
number of KECKSBURG residents became aware of the object
crashing when they observed a column of blue smoke ascending
from the woods near the small town.

A seven year old boy who actually witnessed the object crash
described it as "a star on fire". His mother remarked: "There
was a column of blue smoke rising through the trees=E2=80=A6 there was
another brilliant object hanging above the tree line and to the
left of the smoke column, resembling a four-pointed star".


------The KECKSBURG Incident
  The Why? Files Network

Web link:

http://www.thewhyfiles.net/


###################
#8. Discussion Forum Focus

Come join in on our discussion forums. These are a few of the
topics you can find there.

my opinions on what crop circles may be i believe some are not
faked. if anyone has read the bible codes
will know:
2004: there will be a guided missile attack on NYC (maybe
september again)
2005: there will be a smallpox attack on israel
2006: there will be a nuclear holocaust in jerusalem
the 'visions' of nostradamus collide spectacularly with the
bible- code and his ultimate vision was of the visitation of
life 'elsewhere'.

Read More...


Plus hundreds of postings (the forum is searchable)


###################
#9. UFO WAR (Robert A. Goerman)

I cordially invite you and your readers to follow my latest
novel, "UFO WAR," for FREE as it is created online at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ufo_war

My sci-fi thriller details how our "secret war on nonhumans"
originated in 1975.

Please spread the word and tell your family and friends.

Thank you for your time and patience.

Sincerely,
Robert A. Goerman
http://profiles.yahoo.com/robert_a_goerman


ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Born March 3, 1952, Robert A. Goerman is a
native of New Kensington, Pennsylvania. You've seen him on
Unsolved Mysteries and The Unexplained on the Lifetime and A&E
television networks. The History Channel found him working on
both sides of the camera for History's Mysteries and Incredible
But True? His writings have appeared in national magazines and
served as source material for several popular books on the
paranormal. One FATE article on UFOs was reprinted in
Extraterrestrial Life, (ISBN 0737704616) a Contemporary Issues
Companion anthology for the high school level published by the
prestigious Greenhaven Press. Racking up 5-STAR reviews, his
debut novel, Himmler's War, (ISBN 1591297370) unleashed "the
most thrilling UFO action since... ever."


###################
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Website. Become part of a team of people that enjoys creating a
great newsletter and website for hundreds of readers around the
world. We have a need for assistance in the following areas: No
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would be greatly appreciated.

Content Contributors
If you have any stories or articles to contribute. We are always
looking for items to publish. Submitting articles to be
published in the WOTS newsletter provides exposure for both you
and the subject material you write about. Full credit will be
given to
those who author and provide articles

Close Encounters this Month in History
If you like gathering close encounter cases and reports by
month, this is the place for you. We are looking for someone to
summarize the most significant close encounters in history by
month. We publish this section every month in our newsletter.

Web Site Award Of Excellence panel
We are seeking to bring back the WOTS Award Of Excellence
program that was started several years ago by Louise Lowry (the
founder of WOTS). With the huge number of really great web sites
available today, It is becoming more difficult to select those
sites that deserve recognition for their efforts and excellence.
The goal of this program is to seek out, evaluate and/or judge
paranormal related web sites to determine a single monthly web
site that will be awarded the prestigious World Of The Strange
Award Of Excellence. Be a part of the team that accomplishes
this.

New Books/Movies and Reviews
If you read a good book or see a good movie that you would like
to share your opinions about, please feel free to sent them to
us or post them directly to our web site.

Graphics Work
=46rom time-to-time we are in need of some graphic logos and icons
for the website. If you have the ability and time to create some
of these items, please let us know.


###################
#10. Miscellaneous Commentary (By C.A. Honey)

At the time of this writing I have spent over seventy-four years
trying to understand this planet. I give up. It seems humanity
in general hasn't learned a thing in all these years. This
commentary on various subjects from smoking, to crop circles, to
flying saucers, and to other pertinent subjects, will give you
who have followed my writing for over 40 years, a better
perspective as to the present situation occurring on this
planet.

For more, see:

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/nlv1660.html


###################
#11. Anomalies Found in Roswell Metal (By: David E. Twichell)

In 1996, Linda Moulton Howe, UFO investigator and author,
submitted a piece of metal to biophysicist W. C. Levengood, of
Grass Lake, Michigan, for analysis. The metallic fragment is
alleged to have come from the debris field of the famous
Roswell, New Mexico UFO crash of 1947.

(*). "From Electron Microscope and EDS (Electron Dispersive
Spectroscopy) studies it was shown that the metal was composed
of contiguous layers of pure bismuth (Bi) and layers of
magnesium (Mg) containing between 2-3 percent zinc (Zn). The
Electron Microscope images disclosed that Bi layers are in the
range of 1-4 microns thick and the Mg layers 100-200 microns in
thickness. When examined in cross section, it was apparent that
the layers were not smooth and straight but rather contained
micro-undulations.

"One of the visits during Linda's Odyssey was at the Carnegie
Institute, Department of Terrestrial Magnetism, where she
arranged for an Ion Microprobe - Isotope analysis of the Bi/Mg
sample. In the final report by Dr. Erik Hauri, there are two
findings, which stand out as being highly anomalous. For more,
see:

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/nlv1668.html


###################
#12. Why Don't Pilots See UFOs?

These arguments offered by James McDonald in 1968 are as
relevent today as they were then. James wasn't of the opinion
that UFO were necessarily interstellar craft, he simply felt
that the question of the existence of unidentified aerial
phenomena had not been adequately examined and deserved the
attention of science.

James was, by the accounts of his co-workers, a tireless
scientist who was interested in just about everything. Though he
worked for the Atmospheric Physics department at the University
of AZ in Tuscon, he was known for delving into many diverse
studies of the physical universe. His interests ranged from
determining if a lighter baseball bat swung faster would cause a
baseball to fly farther, to trying to identify the source of a
UFO report. He was a dedicated scientist who was widely
published both inside and outside of his discipline of choice,
atmospheric physics. For those interested in learning more about
Dr. James McDonald, NARCAP recommends reading "Firestorm: Dr.
James E. McDonald's Fight for UFO Science" by Ann Druffel.
For more, see:

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/nlv1665.html


###################
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###################
#13. Fatima Prophecies

On May 13, 1917 a luminous Apparition of the Virgin Mary
appeared to three peasant children and delivered a prophecy that
would change the world.

Investigations into the Fatima event have proved that the
miracle of October 13, 1917 was seen over an area of 32 miles by
20. An area of over 600 square miles.

The three children - Lucia, Jacinta and Francisco took their
flock of sheep to a natural hollow in the ground known as the
Cova da Iria to graze, just outside the town of Fatima in
Portugal. While the sheep were grazing the children began to
play. Suddenly there was a flash of lightening. The children
looked up, bewildered into the sky. The day was quiet pleasent
and there was no sign of a storm. They started to gather the
sheep thinking a storm was brewing in the distance when there
was a second flash that caused total concern. For more, see:

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/nlv1666.html


###################
#14. The Atlantis Tesla Connection on CD-ROM Disc


We are posting this message here because Doug is a long-time
contributor of quality newsletter articles for our newsletter. I
know that for me, it is much easier for me to read books on the
computer than in a printed format. Please consider purchasing
the signed CD-ROM disc...

HI. I am Doug Yurchey; author of 'The Atlantis Tesla Connection'
and I am pleased to announce (before its publication) a signed
cd- rom disc of my entire manuscript. This could be a big
collector's item as I believe I've written the New Chariots of
the Gods. I am selling the disc for $10.00 which includes its
case, cover-art, mailer and postage. It is nearly 300 pages in
Microsoft Word that contain revolutionary and unique ideas never
before published. The disc also has photographs, graphic
illustrations and beautiful artwork.

If you are interested in purchasing this informative collector's
item, simply send $10.00 cash, check or M.O. to: Doug Yurchey -
 18615 Bryant Street - Northridge, CA. 91324.

The following is a list of concepts covered in the manuscript: A
new view of Tesla, Atlantis and their incredible relationship;
Tesla's wireless system is the system of the future and solves
the mysteries in the distant past; the locations of Atlantis are
illustrated as well as what powered this long lost empire; Human
History is completely rewritten; personal letters from the man
who may have been Tesla's son!; the most extensive study of High
Technology in the BIBLE; a new look at Nostrodamus and how he
has predicted current events; the reality of the work of Edgar
Cayce, reincarnation and the Shroud of Turin; new views on space
or how things we assume are natural are really artificial and
the result of ancient intelligences; personal experiences and an
exclusive interview of Uri Geller; my prediction of the 10th
planet's distance came true!

(There are e-mails from a number of you who will receive this e-
mail in a large E-mail Section). There is also an expanded
interview of me where I describe my Close Encounter back in the
70s and a number of amazing experiences and information.

Finally, there are my Grand Conclusions of the ancient past and
the far future; how they could be exactly the same. In these
pages, there is the possible Purpose of the Human Race! These
are unique and positive revelations. 30 years of research has
been synthesized into a convincing theory that THE PAST WAS THE
FUTURE AND THE FUTURE WILL BE THE PAST. No other book will ever
teach you more. Thank you...


###################
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We welcome submissions to the WOTS newsletter. We will publish
Stories (Fact & Fiction), Research, Website reviews, Book
reviews, Movie reviews, Biographies and more.

Submission deadlines: We typically finalize the preparation of
the newsletter 1 week prior to it being published. All
submissions for the next newsletter need to be submitted prior
to that time.


###################
World Of The Strange Team

TJ Elias - Newsletter Editor, Webmaster
Louise Lowry - Contributing Newsletter Editor, Assistant Site
Administrator, Forum Moderator
Nocomis - Forum Moderator
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Doug Yurchey - Newsletter Article Author
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Please join our team


###################
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The WOTS newsletters and web site are created and maintained to
provide research information for paranormal researchers and
investigators as well as novices and the curious.



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reserved. Readers may redistribute or post the entire newsletter on
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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 1

              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Brock

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:56:23 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:32:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Brock


>From: Alfred Webre <EcoRadio.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 02:04:42 EDT
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>Here is Dr. Michael Salla's email to me: "As far as the UFO
>updates message from Errol is concerned, I'm glad it resolved
>itself well, and was only an innocent case of mistaken
>identity. I'm sure it will happen from time to time so we'll
>just have to educate the public about our respective
>websites."

"Educate" the public, indeed.


>My website is:
>Exopolitics.com

Interesting. The two exopolitics guys cross paths on the UpDates
List. What do you think, Brad? ;-)

Please, bear with me through the following. I tie it together at
the end. Basically, the following is being thrown out for
discussion.

I had a look at Mr. Webre's webpage. Very curious. It seems that
the Earth is under "quarantine." Consider the following brief
description of this "quarantine" from that page:

"Earth is isolated because it is under intentional quarantine by
a structured, rational Universe society. There are signs around
us of a Universe initiative to reintegrate Earth into
interplanetary society. It is possible that Earth may be
permitted to rejoin Universe society, under certain conditions,
or at a future time certain."

Now, consider the following synopsis of C.S. Lewis' famous
novel, "Out of the Silent Planet." As background, "Ransom" is a
middle aged professor, Elwin Ransom, who ends up on Mars with
some gold-hungry thugs:

"Ransom eventually is sent (or called) to meet the guardian
angel of the planet, its Oyarsa. From the Oyarsa he learns much
about the spiritual structure of the universe: about spiritual
hierarchies, about the pervasiveness of spirit life throughout
the heavens (which, he discovers, is the proper name for what we
call �outer space�), and about a war in heaven in which the
guardian angel of our planet rebelled against the Old One [God],
was defeated, and was hurled back to Earth, or Thulcandra. After
that occurred it was called the "silent planet", because it was
fallen, out of touch and communication with the rest of the
universe. From Ransom the Oyarsa learned the strange story of
how the Old One sent his son, Maleldil [Christ], to the Silent
Planet, to renew his communication with it."

Source: Literary Encyclopedia: Peter Schakel, Hope College

http://www.litencyc.com/php/sworks.php?rec=true&UID=12301

Now, let us consider that most of the contactee cults of the
1950s shared certain characteristics:

1.) Central figure makes contact with extraterrestrials who are
concerned about us and the problems we are engendering by misuse
of technology on our planet. Then, the central theme was "the
bomb." The aliens wanted to help us; to "save us from
ourselves."

2.) Most incorporated Christian philosophies in a hodgepodge mix
with various "mystical" eastern/Theosophical ideas.

I recall, from a course I took in college, studying the concept
of a "rejuvenation," or "revitilization movement," in the
religious sense. One possible way to view the apparition of
Christ was as such a movement: Judaism at that time had become
utterly bound up in it's traditions to exclusion of spirituality
(or, at least this was Christ's accusation) and when Christ came
he "revitalized" that religion, which went on to actually form
an offshoot religion, Christianity.

Viewing the contactee movements in light of this, they seem to
have been, in a sense, failed (horribly) attempts at
revitilization movements. Christianity proper,in cooperation
with the secular government, having sanctioned the overruning of
North America through the proliferation of the concept of
"Manifest Destiny," may be perceived as having become "stale,"
or rigid. Needing of revitilization. Aspiring charismatic
latches onto the UFO furor, creates benevolent aliens who are
Christians and/or Mystics and want to save us from the bomb.
Instant 20th century religious revitilization movement.

Leap ahead now to the early 21th century, and Alfred Webre's
"exopolitics." Note how the "quarantine premise" resembles C.S.
Lewis' Christian allegory in "Out of the Silent Planet." Note
how Webre, on his webpage, represents "renewal of communication"
as a favorable thing, and refers to pressing ecological, among
other, problems:

"Open interaction with Universe society could yield fairly rapid
results in forestalling our ecological crisis, and elevating
human society. New energy non-polluting energy sources - of
human design and application could at last be made available
without their inventor's fearing assassination by petroleum and
nuclear interests. Our petroleum civilization would be
stalemated and made obsolete. Universe society's laws and
institutions prohibit war as a conflict resolution mechanism.
The ruling terrestrial elites - and the permanent war economy -
 have historically used war as a key means of production and
power."

From: exopolitics.com

Considering all the factors I have discussed here, I suggest
that "exopolitics," be it the philosophy of Salla or Webre, is
essentially a highly secularized version of a contactee cult.
Among the differences from the fifties cults are: generalization
of the alien leader(s) of the fifties into either a Universal
Society (Webre) or 57 diferent races of aliens which interact
with the black government (Salla). Ergo, "Orthon" is now the
"Universe Society." The blatantly religious elements (e.g., Van
Tassel singing hymns with his followers, etc.) have also been
dropped, but the concept of the "world in quarantine," needing
to be "saved" by the benevolent Universe Society remains.
Similarly, in Salla's version, there are certain races which are
capable of "saving" us, although there are certain other ones
that are less benevolent.

It makes even more sense when we consider that Salla's
professional career in teaching was concerned with the political
aspects/problems involved in the implementation of world peace.

Finally, the couching of all this in the language of academia is
deliberate; an attempt to lend credibility to, as well as soften
the shock of making bizarre and unproven statements about
multiple alien races with their sights set on Earth.

Best,
Rod


=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 1

               Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:10:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:35:16 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - Deardorff


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:08:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30

>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:02:26 -0700
>>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30

>>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:46:15 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30

><snip>

>>>All Martian meteorites traveled here via very long elliptical
>>>routes (much longer that the 52 million miles to which you
>>>refer) with no protection from cosmic rays and solar wind, as
>>>evidenced by their cosmic ray exposure ages. The Cosmic Ray
>>>Exposure (CRE) age of a Martian meteorite is the length of time
>>>from ejection off Mars until its fall onto the Earth's surface.

>>There may be a large uncertainty in our understanding of where
>>some of these meteorites, discovered mostly on Antarctica, came
>>from. As I understand it, there are 5 or 6 times as many found
>>from Mars as from the Moon. Why isn't the ratio at least that
>>much the other way around, considering the Moon's lesser gravity

>Jim,

>The moon is much smaller than Mars. It attracts far fewer
>objects. Mars attracts many more objects with which to impact
>than the moon. Earth shields the moon from many objects which
>might have impacted it. For any impact debris to travel from the
>moon to Earth, it would have to leave the moon in a very narrow
>range of incident angles. For impact debris to travel from Mars
>to Earth would not require a direct angle, since it's so the
>debris could just float aimlessly until attracted by Mars'
>neighbor... Earth. ...

Kyle,

I rather doubt that line of reasoning, which implies that a huge
amount of debris should be shed from Jupiter that would end up
on neighboring planets!

It would be good to hear from a planetary astronomer about this.


Jim Deardorff







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 1

                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:13:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:47:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:31:18 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:59:06 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>


>Hi, Brad,

>>I don't think it is fair that I should have to self-censor
>>myself to word things in such an butt-kissing way that it is
>>utterly dull,

>I think you've identified the problem right there, confusing
>courtesy to colleagues with "butt-kissing". I do know that under
>no circumstances would I make sweeping, self-righteous charges
>against _all_ ufologists - not if I expected to be heard.

<snip>

Hi Jerry,

I think we've isolated the source of the problem alright, it's
that you rankle at the "sweeping" nature of my mild technical
comments on UFO methodology and you call them "self-righteous"
(and previously you accused me of calling people "fools and
idiots" when I made very mild criticisms of technical
methodology and never used any words even suggesting personal
slurs like "fools and idiots") If they were "self-righteous"
that would mean that I am "righteously" pursuing that which I
claim others to be failing to do. Well I'm not doing the ETH
modeling either, so your "self-righteous" slur at me is invalid
and you really need to stop this kind of ad hominem just because
I make "sweeping" criticisms that are dead on-target.

I stand by my "sweeping" criticisms and challenge you once again
for about the 4th or 5th time to quote me the UFO researcher who
has done actual numerical modeling of ETH in a testable way so
that we are not vulnerable to the biases of SETI doing it "for
us" and coming up with predictable anti-UFO results. I have said
I know of no such quantitative testable ETH modeling by the UFO
community and that "interesting writing on ETH" is palpably not
the same thing.

I have also said repeatedly that I would be delighted to find
some overlooked body of literature on ETH model building. This
could be the foundation of scientific study of UFO's. Your
response seems to be that this would somehow ignore the UFO
observational data. I keep pointing out that is not how theory
and observation interact in science (extreme empiricists shun
theory and extreme thereotists shun data, both extremes are
improper science). And I keep having to reiterate again and
again that if you want to ensure that UFO observations are not
given the shaft in theoretical work then you (the editorial
"you") in the UFO community need to do your own theoretical work
and make sure that does not happen, that UFO data are not
ignored or given short shrift!

Remember this thread started with a SETI advocate (Shostak)
debating a UFO advocate (Friedman). I responded by pointing out
that SETI has been doing our work for us by trying to model ETH
for us, but we in the UFO community refuse to do it at all. SETI
I said has done "negative campaigning" and a few in the UFO
community such as Friedman have done some counter-negative
campaigning, but what we need is "positive campaigning" where
the UFO community does a better job at ETH modeling than SETI
has done. I cannot see how you can argue against that except
with "extreme empiricism" that improperly rejects theoretical
work, using an array of invalid excuses (e.g., that theory work
would wipe out data, just because debunkers attempt such phony
arguments, that "magic levels" of alien technology always trump
any modeling of say 22nd century technology levels even before
anything is tried, that aliens will always have to be assumed to
be so "alien" and non- human that human thought can never be
used as a model and we can never understand alien thought --
 even though "aliens" have humanoid bodies, yet they cannot have
"humanoid thoughts"???).

You seem to act like there are some "colleagues" out there who
would be offended by even the mildest of methodological
criticisms who would be upset at my "sweeping" all-
inclusiveness, because I missed them, excluded them and their
ETH modeling. But I don't see anyone in the UFO community doing
the positive testable ETH model building who could be offended
that I overlooked them. They would have to exist first before
they could get "righteously" offended that I said they did not
exist! You keep bringing up Ashpole who is a SETIan, who is not
even in the UFO community! Where has Swords proposed a testable
quantitative ETH model? Where has he or anyone else followed up
and tested it and/or built on it further? Vallee critiqued ETH
but no one has followed it up with any model building. If you
don't like his assumptions then propose your own and do a better
job. This is model building. I use the word "offended" here
somewhat tongue-in-cheek because just overlooking someone should
not really "offend" them when I keep saying if you know someone
I am overlooking then please let me know!


Brad Sparks






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 1

                HBCCUFO Research Recently Reported - 07-31-04

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:03:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:52:41 -0400
Subject: HBCCUFO Research Recently Reported - 07-31-04


HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings

Lethbridge, Alberta Three Disks Flying In V Formation

Date: Late July 1976

My sighting of UFOs has baffled me for more than 25 years. The
first sighting was in 1976 late July I seen three disks flying
in V formation. They were grey in color with a touch of lead.
The size of the objects was 30 meters by 20 meters. I scale
seemed larger as they hovered 20 meters ahead of me when I
notice them. I was on a dirt bike going east as I approached the
crest on the hill near my friends house I looked up and seen the
three disks they were going northwest in formation. I turned to
look at my friends location they were behind me coming over the
hill were in shock and stopped I speed towards the UFOs was
directly below the objects. I stopped my bike and heard nothing.
I turned to towards the UFOS and began chase. The chase didn't
last more than 1 minute the closer I got the further they moved
silently towards the Belly Buttes lactated on the Blood Reserve
and disappeared over the horizon several minutes later. Later
that night we heard on the radio there was a report of an Large
orange ball of light appeared and speed off into the sky from
someones back yard in Lethbridge.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------------------------

Lethbridge, Alberta Dozens Of Objects Moving

Date: 1977

I spent many nights on my parent's roof star glazing. And one
night year later in Lethbridge late October I was about to see
something truly unbelievable dozens of what appeared to be stars
began to change their positions very fast in the night sky they
stopped on a dime and move very fast to other positions in
different formations. This lasted for a few minutes then they
just disappeared. the next night I took a friend and we waited
no longer then 5 minutes then the same objects appeared out of
nowhere and began to dance in formation again this lasted for 20
minutes then stopped again we waited for hours and nothing
happened again I was looking at the night sky for months after
that but never seen them again Until 1982 and 1992 .

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------------------------

Woodbridge, Ontario Unusual Bright Light

Date: 2001

I had a telephone call from an fellow who told me of a sighting
his two brothers had back in 2001. The two brothers had just
come home from seeing a movie, they were standing on the
families driveway talking to one another when one looked up and
saw an extremely bright light and of course pointed this out to
his brother. I was told the light had moved across the night sky
rather quickly and thought it was a shooting star because it
disappeared really fast. The brothers thought it was pretty neat
seeing this and as they watched the light reappeared in another
part of the sky but closer to the horizon. It then moved in the
opposite way from when it was shooting downward. The light moved
to the right, then left and then came to a complete stop. From
it's stationary position it then shot straight upwards and
disappeared. It was the last time they observed it. It was a
steady light, nothing flashing on it at all. It never left a
trail behind it at anytime in the sighting.

Thank you to the person for this report.

---------------------------------------

Louisiana, USA Lights And Mississippi Unknown Over My Home

I have had several experiences with lights in the past several
years. I lived in Louisiana when I first saw the lights. Maybe
"orbs"..? I don't know what they were. I can best describe them
as balls of light/energy which streaked across the sky at close
range. The first time I saw them they were near rooftop of the
building where I lived which was a single story building. I
thought they might have been roman candles, but bigger and not
colored. They flashed across the yard, over the rooftop and
vanished, fizzled out. No sound, smell, nothing...They had to be
at least 20 feet off the ground. I can't say exactly, but not
way up in the sky. Then a year of so later, at another location
in (near New Orleans) Louisiana, I, my son, and another friend
saw them one night. Same thing. Close to ground, fizzled out.
Like streaking light in a ball. Hazy, not solid.Fast. Silent.
And in Mississippi, near here, I saw them on two occasions. Same
thing.

Interesting thought...When I saw the L.A.ones witnessed by my
son and friend, the thought came to me that they reminded me of
almost like a flash bulb going off on an old camera. Not that it
was a direct flash, but that it might be photographing us..some
surveillance thing.

We also had something fly over our house when we moved to MS. 6
yrs. ago. We lived in a wooded area, somewhat secluded. About
2:00 a.m. something buzzed the house, with a big "whoosh". Then
the shrubs beside the house were bending over and swaying back
and forth for a few minutes. A strange vibration and sound
followed causing the glass in one window to rattle. I got the
sound on my camcorder. Unfortunately, it was too dark to get the
image of the shrubs which I tried to film rocking and rolling.
The bad thing is that the tape cartridge spinning can be heard
somewhat. If someone with the right equipment would like to
enhance the sound, they could get the "whuh,whuh,whuh,whuh...."
sound I think. It was a vibrational sound. If you want to know
more about that I can write it later. This was about 6 yrs ago.
I reported it to some UFO investigators. I can't remember their
name. I may still have the letter somewhere.

We don't know what to make of all this... I personally think
that with the frequency of sightings, crop circles, etc., we may
soon see some unbelievable events occurring very near...That
they are not hiding , and becoming more obvious. Those craft do
NOT fly themselves. Intelligence is behind them. What form of
Intelligence???

Additional Information:

Q. - Could you please describe the area in which you made the
sighting. Is it near an airport? An Air Force Base? A military
or research installation of any kind?

A. - Yes, about 5 miles South off Interstate Hwy.59 is Stennis
Space Center. Near there is an airport. East of here is Keesler
AFB, Biloxi, Ms. about a 50 minute drive. There is also an
Airport at Gulfport, Ms.near Stennis. Stennis has several
facilities on it's site.  http://www.gulfcoast.org/gpt/
 http://www.keesler.af.mil/
  http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=3DTmap&&csz=3DPicayune+MS+&Ge
t%A0Map=3DGet+Map   Looking at the map- the location where we saw
the object was on Memorial Blvd.It was near the Interstate 59.
Stennis is in the lower right corner of the map to the Eastat
Nicholson, Hwy 607. Also in Chalmette, La, a suburb east of New
Orleans, is Michoud which is a space facility.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/michoud/

Q. - Were there any wings, or anything like this visible on the
craft ?

A. - Absolutely no wings or blinking lights or anything visible.

Q. - As it moved, did it make any unusual maneuvers or did it
follow a straight flight path ?

A. - Straight path,moving swift and steadily.

Q. - I am not 100 per cent on how far it was away, but did you
or the others hear any sound ?

A. - It was high up, did not hear any sound. Definitely no
contrails what so ever.

Q. - Was the sky perfectly clear or were there clouds in the
area ?

A. - The sky was clear,no clouds visible.Maybe way up there was
some haze,not cloudy.It was practically dusk.

Q. - Also did you happen to notice any aircraft in the skies
just after the sighting ?

A. - Yes, on my way home,I saw a plane. It did not appear to be
a military jet.It was a few minutes afterwards.Maybe l0 minutes
later.

If you can think of anything else would you please add it to the
follow up.

A. - The only thing is that when the sunset or whatever it was
reflected on the object for a few seconds, it was a beautiful
reflecting light. It then seconds later disappeared. It was
almost like when a mirror is reflecting the sun, and moved
quickly away. The object just appeared at a steady pace, moving
more horizontally than upwardly climbing. I cannot say how high
it was. It was high enough that a clear and concise view was not
possible, but it was highly visible.

The incident in Spring 1998 I think it was..I will find it.
Pretty sure I still have it.

Ok, here goes..We had just moved into a house which had huge
live oak trees on the east side of the driveway. About 80-90
year old trees--big! We had also just gotten a Panasonic
camcorder. So my then 13 yr.old was having fun filming and using
the camera. I was not too familiar with it. The house was in the
country, lots of pine woods here, and very dark outside at
night. On two sides of the house were very tall pine and some
oak trees, on the East side were three huge oaks. The yard had
huge (maybe 5-6 foot.) azalea bushes, some of which were
directly under the kitchen window and pressed up to the
house(brick). For a few nights before the Whoosh thing, my son
said he saw "lights" in the big oaks. Hmmmnn..I thought maybe
some spiders or night bugs which were iridescent. I did not see
the lights. There were no street lights or house lights in that
area. It was very dark at night there. I passed it off, maybe he
saw lights, maybe, not.. So I said, next time you see them, call
me. We then took the video camera and waited for the lights to
appear in the trees...Nothing., Then, the next night..some
little glowing lights..which I still thought might be some type
bugs or insects. They were not fireflies. They appeared to be
going in a circular spinning motion in the trees. Ok, I am not
convinced that these were not bugs... so we just waited and
watched.

This particular night, my son had gone to bed. So I decided to
go to the kitchen where it was dark and watch with the camera in
case the lights appeared. I had windows in a corner (both sides)
above the counter. So I could see very well outside and it was
next to the driveway where the oaks were. I was getting a little
bored and just about to call it a night. All of a sudden, this
loud" Whoosh" comes out of nowhere. No wind blowing, clear
night, and the whoosh comes over the roof and seemed to come
right over the corner of the kitchen where I was . It seemed
practically on top of the roof. Close.

My first thoughts were "tornado"..But there was no bad weather
that night. Then "little tornado" dirt devil or whatever those
things are.. I must tell you it scared the heck out of me! I had
the camera on the counter, so I hurried and turned it on. I did
not want to use the light to attract attention and all there was
outside was a dim outside light on the front of the house about
12 ft. to the right. It barely lit up much area. At this point,
I was trying to film the azalea bushes which were violently
rocking and swaying. The one right beside the window was going
left and right bending way down. The ones about 4 ft. away were
too. BUT, the big trees in the front yard, about 25 or so ft.
away were not. It was as if a "downward draft" was concentrated
at the corner of the house where it whooshed. On the opposite
side of the kitchen was a small single pane window which had had
a small window unit ac. The glass was not snug, but it was fixed
in a frame. Within seconds or a minute after the whoosh, the
glass started to rattle rapidly. Also, came a sound from outside
which was like "whuh, whuh, whuh, whuh"..Like a droning, and
vibrational sound. It lasted several minutes.

I was disappointed that there was not enough light to get the
bushes on film, although you can make out some movement. It's
pretty vague, though. But, the sound of the whuh whuh can be
heard faintly. We left shortly after that occurred for vacation.

Thank you to the witness for the reports. This witness will
remain unknown !

---------------------------------------

Duberger-Les Saules Park, Quebec

Date:  June 20, 2004
Time: 11:40 pm
Location of Sighting: Duberger-Les Saules Park
Number of witnesses: 1 witness
Number of Object: 1 object
Shape of object: Lights: 1 yellow, 1 brilliant flashing light, 1
white light.

I was meditating near the St. Charles river when I saw a craft
(I thought it was a helicopter) flying low just above the trees.
It surveyed the whole parks ystematically. It took a sharp turn
at the western limit of the park, which made me think it was a
drone. It was 2 to 3 meters long, silent. When it flew over me,
my eyes started to sting as if it was spraying something over
the area. What have I been exposed to? Why?

A few days before I was at the same spot for a relaxing
meditation and I felt like I was under observation. Intuitively
I scrutinized the opposite shore and after a few minutes I
detected a dark figure among the trees. I stared at this
presence intensely for a few minutes. At some point it went
backward from the shore towards the woods. When it reached the
walking path it suddenly "ran" out towards the right. It took me
a few minutes of introspection to make sure this was real.

I don't know what the "drone" sprayed or why. Was it to get this
thing out?. If so, I don't know what I was exposed to. If
someone can tell me what this thing was, I'd like to know. I'm
worried.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------------------------

Drumheller, Alberta Bright Light After Thunderstorm

Date: July 19, 2004
Time: Approx: 10:00 p.m.

A close friend of mind who resides in Houston, B.C. rang me up
and said he had a story for me and did I want to hear it. I said
yes of course so the fellow came up to our home and we sat and
he told me what the two of them saw while on holiday in
Drumheller, Alberta.

The couple both had some time off from work and had made plans
to drive to Saskatchewan for a quick visit. After their stay was
over they started back and were driving through the province of
Alberta taking in a few of the sights. At one point the skies
were turning dark from the cloud cover so they decided to stay
at the small community of Drumheller, Alberta. They pulled into
a campground to get a spot to stay for the night then went and
looked around the town. As the evening approached the weather
had turned really bad as the thunder storms rolled through the
area. They got out of their camper and moved into the cab of the
truck so they could sit and watch the lightening as it was so
intense. My friend said at one point a blue lightening bolt shot
down from above and hit the highway which of course lit up the
entire area. He said it was a bad storm and amazing to watch.

Eventually as they watched the storm passed over and at the back
end of it some stars were peeking through the cloud cover. All
of a sudden they spotted a very bright light which seems to be
falling towards the earth. They first thought it may have been a
falling star, but due to the length of time they observed it
(approx: 10 seconds) they started questioning themselves about
it. The bright light seemed to fall straight down and as it went
through or behind a cloud and became visible again they lost
sight of it on the horizon. My friend explained that there was a
dike of sorts which blocked their view so they were not able to
see if the light actually hit the ground, or whatever became of
it. He was so puzzled that the fellow got out of his truck and
climbed up the back of his camper to get a better view. He was
able to see over the dike which had blocked there view, but at
this point he saw nothing at all.

Thank you to the witnesses for their report.

------------------------------------------

Peoria, Arizona Oval

Date: July 25, 2004
Time: 3:30 a.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Oval

Full Description of event/sighting: Hello! I found your website
from yahoo. Thought you might be able to help us. We are not
sure what we saw that night. But at first it appeared to be a
very bright star. We were driving home from L.A. and spotted
this bright star in the sky about 40 miles from our home in
Peoria. We both focused in on this bright light which we
believed at the time was a helicopter or an airplane. As we got
closer to home the bright light appeared to be moving very
slowly to the North. We parked our car in our driveway and
continued to watch this bright light. At this time it appeared
to be hovering over the valley. My mother (who has always been
very skeptical) and I were able to focus better now. The light
was very bright and very close to us. We began to realize there
was no possible way it was a star. It was an oval shape that the
light was shining out of very brightly. There appeared to be a
red light coming from the center of it. It began to maneuver
very slowly in different directions. I have never been so
excited and scared in my life. At one point my mom and I were
covered in Goosebumps. I took a picture of it with my digital
camera. When I zoom in on the first few photos the object
appears to be in the shape of a red ball. But several pictures
later it appears very white and in the shape of a pill and in
another photo it is red and in the shape of a parallel oval. We
are still not sure what we saw but I thought I would tell you
about it and you could let me know. Thanks alot for your time.
Sincerely.

Thank you so much to the witness for this report.

------------------------------------------------

Phoenix, Arizona More Amazing Footage Taken Of An Unknown ?

Date: July 29, 2004
Time: Daytime

HBCC UFO Research Note: I would like people to know that I have
been talking to the gentleman for a while now and he got caught
up in something he never expected to find himself. Right in the
middle of the UFO phenomena ! This fellow is an excellent eye
witness, he is a very credible witness who is seeing some
remarkable things over the Phoenix area. I would also like to
pint out, he and two other have been filming objects for
sometime, getting some excellent still shots and footage. I also
would like to point out that a bright flash was seen just before
the object was observed. If the flash was associated to the
object it is hard to say for certain. But another interesting
point to this story. Also one other interesting point that the
witness mentions, and that is some 30 to 50 people stopped to
look up and must have wondered what this object was. When anyone
takes a little extra time to look up they might be rewarded with
a remarkable sight. I and all of the fellows who are catching
these objects on film would like others from the Phoenix area to
come forward to tell of what they have been witness to. If you
have seen something recently or from the past each report is
very important and we would very much appreciate hearing the
stories. Thank you, Brian Vike Director HBCC UFO Research.

Hello Brian. I am beside myself. I am lost for words. I just
can't tell you enough how unbelievable the video I captured
today was. I woke up today feeling great and had a feeling I was
going to see something awesome. I work in downtown Phoenix which
is South of me about 15 miles or so and on my way to work I saw
a flash in the sky so bright I had to pull over and see what it
was. I had my camera with me, as you know, and I looked around
for about 10 minutes and saw nothing. I thought I might have
seen a reflection off someone's windshield or something
reflective, so I continued on to work. I called a friend to tell
him about the flash in the sky and since we have both seen them
he agreed that I wasn't seeing things and it was probably
something entering our atmosphere or our dimension. The only
reason we are talking about other dimensions is because of all
the sightings and shooting stars we have been seeing lately at
night. So the thought is out there to ponder. Who knows right?

I mean, last night I saw 3 orbs, 6 flashes, and 13 shooting
stars. Sounds crazy but it's true. My friend came over to
skywatch (the guy who taped the Estrella Lights) with me for the
first time last night, saw the flashes and shootings stars and
the orbs and he couldn't believe it either. Anyway, back to
today. I am parking in the parking garage at work, 4 floors up,
and in my line of sight (west) a white cluster of orbs heading
in my general direction tumbling and turning. Also it was
hovering, weaving, moving about, changing shape and was glowing
from the inside making a reddish hue. Even when it hovered it
was rotating.

Through the viewfinder it looked white because it is a black and
white screen you see through but when I played it back it was a
reddish color. I moved East in the garage to get to another open
area to tape it and I easily spotted it. It was only 1500ft.-
2000ft. in altitude, no breeze and I have buildings in the
background for a great reference. The object looked like a bunch
of orbs clustered together and it looked like the letter "E" but
without the center line which makes it look like a thick "C" but
with edges or a right angle-shaped design like armrests on a
chair. It could also look like the letter "U". It went in all
directions causing me to chase after it on foot and the object
never changed altitude yet. You can tell because when it was in
sight with the buildings I used the windows to determine how
many floors it was in line with.

It went behind one building and when I spotted it the object
went back where it came from out of sight behind the same
building. I found it again behind that building and it moved
behind another building. It went back and forth several times
and this went on for about 1/2 hour. The people walking around
at lunchtime on the street (sidewalk) noticed me videotaping
this and about 30-50 people gathered around to watch in the 100
degree heat. I could hear someone saying that they have been
watching it because I was watching it and that it has been
hanging around a long time. I didn't think about talking to
those people to get their comments on tape but that would have
helped make the story even more important. Not that this isn't
big but having other people seeing this at the same time is
newsworthy. Especially during the day. Anyway, I went back up to
the roof of my parking garage and it was right there up in the
sky hovering around 1500ft.-2000ft.. I zoomed in really close
and as I am panning back another white, but smaller orb, went
right by the cluster at a fast rate.

I didn't have the tripod with me this time so the video is shaky
but the objects are easy to see. No doubt about it, there are 2
objects in the area and I taped it. It's unbelievable! I kept on
taping for about 10 min. more but the object started to get
farther away and the taller buildings were in the way plus I was
real late to work. It was heading towards Mesa which is
Southeast from my location picking up speed and ascending.. I
could have went all the way to my car and probably followed it
again but I was out in my work clothes in 100 plus degrees with
humidity, for 45min, sweating so bad that I had to buy a new
shirt at the store so I can go to work which I was going to be 1
hour late for. I hope someone else reports this because the
video is unbelievable and it should have some importance due to
the location of the object and the time it was out there and the
other people seeing it. Also the fact that another object flew
right by it at a high rate of speed. Good Good stuff and I will
be sending clips to you tonight.

Thank You and say hello to all.

Thank you to the witness for these pictures and the report.

Photos and video clips are =A92004RichG.

To view the photos and video clips, please visit the following
URL:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1661

-------------------------------------
Post Falls, Idaho Black Object

Date: July 30, 2004
Time: 8:00 or 8:01 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Oval

Full Description of event/sighting: I just got done seeing a
object on my back porch as I went out onto it I looked up as I
do alot. And I noticed a black object that was moving at a slow
speed, like slower than a Jumbo Jet but at that same height that
planes fly maybe a little lower. I watched it as it flew
directly over me at the same altitude and then it seemed as it
got over me to change directions a little to the North-East a
little bit. I ran into my house to find my binoculars it took me
like 30 seconds to find them, I ran outside to see it closer but
it completely was gone? I was so mad because I knew it was
flying slow and it was low and so black and obvious against the
blue sky with hardly no clouds either. I searched the sky very
good and after I had got my binoculars but there was no sign of
the black object, and the way it was going either North Eastern.
Maybe someone today will have noticed this as well.

Additional Information:

Hello Brian thanks for wanting to know more about what I saw.

 The Shape was a Diamond shape. The size was at least the size
of a small plane size like a twin engine plane. And the distance
was actually low, lower than the height that commercial Jumbo
Jets usually fly at it was a little bit lower. Ok the color is
what was the weirdest thing it was "pitch black" color all over
it, no other color was visible on it. The texture I could not
make out but as I focused my eyes I noticed a disturbance around
it as if a energy field was around it disturbing the air around
it. And no sound. Ok the area was in my backyard on my back
porch I live in Post Falls, Idaho which is near Spokane, Wa.
Post Falls is the first town you come into after crossing the
Washington/Idaho border. The nearest Air Force base is located
there in Spokane,Wa. The nearest airport is in Spokane. I
noticed no aircraft at all afterwards I watched to see if a
military jet or helicopter would fly in the area but nothing
did.

No Flashing lights at all on it just a Black Diamond. I watched
it for 1 minute or a minute and a half until I ran inside to
grab the binoculars and after noticing the field of energy that
surrounded it. I made sure it wasn't a Bird I looked to see
wings and I made sure it wasn't a balloon ether. So before I ran
inside I watched it for a minute or 2. Ok it flew directly north
until it got to over my area of Post Falls when it got directly
over where I was my house it changed directions a slight bit to
North-East. Last of all no tail at all. After it was gone I even
ran into my front yard to see if maybe I could see it out there,
nope it was completely gone there was no clouds during the time
I saw this thing too which is weird for it to just disappear.
Well I went right away onto your site Brian and reported it and
then went into the archives to see if maybe recently someone
else has seen this same thing sure enough July 10, 2004
Portland,Oregon that's right next to me this guy took pictures
of the same thing I just saw I got so exited after finding that
and I'll post the link to his pictures he got a few different
picture of it too. And read his description of it, it is exactly
the same as mine!!

Heres the Link
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D15
39

Thank you to the witness for their excellent report.

----------------------------------------

Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Smoke Ring And Grey Dot

Date: July 30, 2004
Time: 12:30 CST

Earlier today, I decided to take advantage of sunny conditions
to go work outside, so I took my notebook computer out to the
back patio and set it up. Although the day had started clear,
thunder clouds started building up before noon. Much of the sky
to the north was cloudy, but the sky to the south was clear. The
storm clouds were well defined. There wasn't much overcast or
haze, just storm cloud or clear blue sky. I need to take
frequent breaks when working on the computer outside, because of
glare reflected from the display. So, at one point (about
12:30), I leaned back and looked straight up into the sky. I
noticed that there was a very well defined thundercloud to the
north, scattered cloud overhead and blue sky west and east.
Directly overhead, there was what looked like a smoke ring,
about the size of my thumbnail held at arm's length. It was
perfectly circular and appeared to be swirling inward on itself.
In the center of the smoke ring was a grey dot or small circle.
At first, the dot was almost as large as the area inside the
smoke ring, about the size of a fingernail at arm's length. Over
the next several seconds, the grey dot appeared to get smaller,
then disappeared. The smoke ring remained, but gradually (over
about a minute or so) dissipated.

Additional Information:

Q. - Did the dot to the best of your knowledge appear to have
any structure to it ? Maybe a solid object ? I know this may

A. - Be a tough one to answer if you didn't get a great look at
it. It was just a grey dot, actually a somewhat blue-grey, not
contrasting very highly against the sky and without sharply
defined edges or features. It had the appearance of being very
high, with the atmosphere obscuring details and definition.

Q. - Also did the grey dot appear to move around at anytime
within the circle ?

A. - It just seemed to get smaller. Bear in mind that the smoke
ring appeared cloud-like, same white color as surrounding cloud,
in blue sky (there were clouds near it and a "perfect" thunder
cloud off to the north very highly contrasted against a clear
sky). Inside the smoke ring, the sky seemed grey, but then it
seemed that the grey was getting smaller and the color of the
sky outside the ring became more apparent inside the ring. The
grey area, or dot, continued getting smaller and the area
between it and the edge of the ring took on more of the color of
the surrounding sky. Whether perhaps the dot wavered around
inside the ring wasn't apparent. It was a bit like watching
someone's pupil constrict.

Q. - Were you able to hear any sound at all ?

A. - There was no sound.

Q. - Did you happen to observe any aircraft in the area while
this event took place ?

A. - Actually, during the entire time I worked outside, there
weren't any aircraft. Not a very busy time at the airport, I
guess.

Q. - Did the dot happen to reflect any light back towards your
direction as if the sun had hit it ?

A. - I didn't see any reflection, no detail, no definition. Just
a grey dot. I wouldn't describe it as fuzzy, but the edges
weren't well defined, perhaps because of lack of contrast.

Q. - Was there any thing that looked like wings, or something to
this effect on the dot ?

A. - No other shape at all. For all I know, it could have been a
solid object or it could have been a column of smoke or cloud.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------------------------

Mesa, Arizona White Orb And Another Strange Object

Date: July 30, 2004
Time: 3:35 a.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 2
Shape of objects: One round (orb), and the other was shaped like
an infinity symbol.

Full Description of event/sighting: I arrived home from work at
approx 0335 and upon getting out of my car, was stunned by a
luminous white orb approx 1.5 miles and hovering still at I
would say about 2000-3000 feet in the air. Naturally I
questioned my senses and thought this must be a star, but, when
compared to every other star in the sky, I would estimate that
this object was at least 15X brighter and 10X the size of
anything else visible. Continuing to question my observation, I
went into my house and insisted my roommate take a look at it.
We went back out and while wondering what this was, my roommate
exclaimed, "FORGET THIS THING, WHAT THE HECK IS THAT THING TO
THE LEFT?"

To our shock, we saw to the east of the white orb (directly NE
from my position) and much lower altitude (500-1000 ft?) what
appeared to be a much brighter (10X the white orb, lighting up
the sky) white object shaped somewhat like an infinity symbol
with a pulsing yellow light spinning rapidly around what would
be the equator of the object. We were now questioning our
sanity. We watched this spinning object for about a minute then
suddenly, all at once the object dimmed down to a single white
point of light with a red hue and began moving to the NW of it's
original position. We then lost sight of it over houses. The
white orb remained in it's original position. I looked at this
through binoculars and could determine that it was round in
shape and definitely not a star. The light it was emitting was
quite bright, but not like a spotlight. The quality of light was
very much like a bright white LED. Imagine a white LED as big
around as a hot air balloon hovering in the night sky. I'm glad
to know that I have not gone mad, and that this was seen by
others in the area. Something strange is going on over the
Valley of the Sun. Something very strange, indeed.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research
Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH

Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/









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   Aug > Aug 1

                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:07:48 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:58:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:57:37 EDT
>Subject: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>I just recalled that I had read several references wherein it
>was suggested and noted that artists were often the target of
>abduction. That the only common denominator for abductees was
>that the majority were artists of some sort.

>If anyone has data on this please let me know.


Hi Greg,

I have found that many of the abductees I have spoken to here in
Australia (maybe 250- 300 by now) are artistically inclined,
seemingly more so than the average person.

They either play musical instruments, sculpt, paint, sing, write
(particularly poetry) and follow many other artistic pursuits.

As well as being artists, there seems to be another group within
experiencers that are interested in inventing new gizmos, and
yet another group that develop an interest in healing.

I have not undertaken a controlled study into this but the
preponderance of artistic or creative tendencies is so strong
that I would be surprised if this did not show up in such a
study.

I would be interested to hear from researchers or experiencers
who may have noticed this trend or other trends as well.


Sheryl Gottschall








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   Aug > Aug 1

                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 12:22:36 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 13:04:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:07:52 +0000
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:57:37 EDT
>>Subject: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>I just recalled that I had read several references wherein it
>>was suggested and noted that artists were often the target of
>>abduction. That the only common denominator for abductees was
>>that the majority were artists of some sort.

>That is simply not so. Every so often some ill-informed or
>misguided person makes ridiculous cliaims like that, which are
>not justified by any facts or statistics. At one point Kevin
>Randle (though he is a serious and respectable researcher)
>argued - quite falsely in my judgment - that a high percentage of
>abductees were homosexuals.

>In my experience and that of every serious colleague, the
>"aliens" (if that is what they are) have proven to be equal
>opportunity abductors. No social, educational, racial,
>intellectual, or other biases.


How do any of us know what is "simply not so"?

Have any of us spoken to every abductee on the planet? Asked the
right questions? Seen it all clearly?

I don't think so.


Sheryl Gottschall








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              Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Scheldroup

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:51:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 13:09:23 -0400
Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Scheldroup


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:51:17 +0100
>Subject: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>If there was one UFO photo, out of the thousands, which one
>would it be that you would put foward as the nearest to an
>unexplained, structured object unknown to this earth?


Please read Bob Pratt's column

FLEEING IN TERROR
http://www.bobpratt.org/prettiest.html


I have made some confirmation to a story to be found ot this
page.

In a bottom paragraph entititled 'Basket Case' I first read it,
one name mentioned sounded kind of familiar to me 'Hunker'.
Being that it was a supposed local story by the author Bob
Pratt, I decided to send an email to a woman that I knew that
had the same maden name that I knew about. So anyway this
afforementioned 'Deputy Hunker' is this a relative I asked?
Yep, that's my nephew John. I showed her the above link and she
seemed to remember him telling her the same episode.

Well that was fall of 03 so later in the year I had this aunt
come to a Christmas party of mine December 03 when I had to
asked her about it again. The aunt tells to me when asked do
you rememeber your nephew Deputy Hunker and this story that I
emailed to you so and so months ago about what took place when
your nephew was on patrol?

While now in her mid 80's, she accounted the same picture as the
story goes...

"Oh yeah that's how I remember he told it to me too, a young
woman he stopped stepped out from the car, and said a ufo had
landed right on the freeway directly in front of her so frantic
in a panic that's why she had her accelerator to floor-board
speeding, so my nephew caught up with her and stopped her."

The aunt laughed when she told the story to me and few in the
room but talk about weird excuses to get out speeding tickets...
<G>

Back in my college days fall/autumn of '1991' I was sitting on a
lawn chair in my front yard around 2 am if memory recall with my
telescope. To make a long story short, what passed over my head
shortly thereafter around several hundred feed that I cannot
know the exact altitude of but it seemed like a few hundred feet
overhead,... you would not have believed with your own eyes...
nor did I for a few seconds.<g>That I can only describe to you
what is a classic disk-hub shaped spacecraft traveling do south.

The object that I make account about now had a very silvery
metallic appearance all around and traveled do south. The object
appeared to my eyesite to be at some kind of inclination like
around a 30 degree angle relative to my perspective and my view
so on so forth.

The bottom of the disc at my perspective of view while in those
early hours, was a brightly lit object, although only bright at
the bottom of the disk. While the effect of luminous had a glow
which cast or caused a shadow with light that depicted the top
hub portion of the disk. An image which by the way is still
strong and vivid in my minds eye, just to bad everyone I
accounted told it to at school the next morning didnt buy a bit
of it.....


John








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   Aug > Aug 1

               Dr. Poher's Mexican Airforce UFO Video Analysis

From: John Elliott <townsville3.nul>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:47:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 13:15:18 -0400
Subject: Dr. Poher's Mexican Airforce UFO Video Analysis


As anticipated in a post by someone else, last month, Dr. Claude
Poher has published an analysis of this case (in French).

"ANALYSE SCIENTIFIQUE ET IDENTIFICATION
DE L=92OBSERVATION FAITE PAR UN =C9QUIPAGE
DE L=92ARM=C9E DE L=92AIR MEXICAINE"

http://www.premiumwanadoo.com/universons/ovni_gbFr/observation_mexicaine_fr.=
pdf

Conclusion translated using Babelfish:


"Although this analysis was made from 5% of the enregist=E9es data
aboard plane, the results confirm the account of the crew, but
not his interpretation.

Flir is most probably assembled on the plane in such way that
the angles of azimuth and site posted by the system are
erroneous a few degrees. If that undoubtedly does not have a
crucial importance for the mission entrusted to the crew, this
error returned the interpretation of the Flir recordings long
and difficult. These loop alignment effects are perfectly
verifiable a posteriori, even on the ground.

Detections radar do not have any relationship with the
observations of Flir, and they are banal.

The author thinks that because of the very probable error of
chock of Flir of rise, the most plausible interpretation of the
recorded images is the detection of flares of oil exploitation
in the Gulf of Mexico, at 100/150 km of distance of the plane.
The photometric study reveals that the crew could not however
observe these sources of light with the naked eye because of the
luminosity of the diurnal sky in the visible one.

In this connection the photometric analysis centers/edge of the
images proves to be a very powerful tool to highlight the nature
of sources of light observed at long distance, by an electronic
camera.

By its exceptional characteristics and the sum of multi-field
checks that it was necessary to implement in order to identify
the phenomenon observed, this case constitutes an educational
model of which it would be convenient to diffuse the details."








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                         Re: Filers Files #32 - 2004

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 6:45:04 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 13:21:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Filers Files #32 - 2004


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: 2004/07/31 Sat PM 12:07:18 GMT
>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Filers Files #32 -- 2004


Hello George, List,

I'm a bit puzzled about the following report:

<snip>

>Secret Papers Tell How RAF Hunted Aliens

>THE OBSERVER -- Paul Harris reports, "They have been the subject
>of derision for claiming aliens have visited Earth from outer
>space, but believers in the existence of UFOs were this weekend
>excitedly poring over newly released military documents that
>show how fighter aircraft were scrambled to intercept strange
>shapes in Britain's skies.

It appears to be a new article in the newsletter, but was
originally published on 6th July last year, see:

http://tinyurl.com/g7mn

Am I right in presuming it was included in error due to some
confusion about the date?

Cheers,

Joe







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              Investigator Takes Comfort In "We Are Not Alone"

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 13:29:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 13:29:45 -0400
Subject: Investigator Takes Comfort In "We Are Not Alone"




Source: The Woonsocket Call - Woonsocket, Rhode Island

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12567164&BRD=1712&PAG=461&dept_id=2436
1&rfi=6

08-01-04


UFO Investigator Takes Comfort In The Idea That We Are Not Alone

Jo C. Goode
Staff Writer

CUMBERLAND -- For more than 50 years Daved E. Rubien has been
investigating UFO and extraterrestrial phenomena and knows full
well what the skeptics say about the topic that has impassioned
him for most of his life.

But despite the naysayers and critics, Rubien is happy to get
the word out that in this huge universe, we are not alone.

"I�m not here to prove anything. My purpose is to spread the
information around so maybe when the word finally comes out
you�ll understand it a little better," Rubien said.

Rubien founded the Rhode Island Chapter of the Mutual UFO
Network (MUFON) back in 1976 and until recently was the
organization�s president.

He said his interest started back in the 1950�s when he read in
a newspaper account of a priest who claimed he saw a UFO.
Another report a few years later of two local police officers
claiming a similar sighting cemented his interest.

"Back then, right away you were considered nuts if you made
those kinds of claims," Rubien said.

If you think this UFO tracker is one of those Star Trek
devotees, think again. "An educated guy," Rubien said he owned
and operated a successful construction company for many years.

He�s investigated scores of reported UFO sightings in New
England over the years and admits that most cases aren�t UFOs
and some claims are just "baloney."

"About 90 percent of sightings can be explained. They aren�t
UFO�s. But about 10 percent are," Rubien said.

Taking the word of just one witness is not enough is not enough
to verify a true UFO or ET encounters. In order for a sighting
to be deemed a true UFO, Rubien said.

"In order to record a UFO sighting, three or four unrelated
people have to be telling exactly the same thing, then there may
be something there," Rubien said.

A majority of sightings take place in rural areas, Rubien said,
and space ships come in all sizes and shapes. Showing slides of
what Rubien calls authenticated photographs of UFO�s and artists
renderings, there are ships that look like giant cigars, some
that resemble gargantuan thimbles, and of course the "flying
saucer."

A military pilot first described that particular type of UFO in
1947 who claimed to see a disk shape vehicle skimming the
horizon in Washington state.

And the descriptions of types of extraterrestrial that Rubien
calls highly evolved and communicate through telepathy, prove to
be just as varied. Rubien shows drawings of the "Swedes" who
reportedly live here among humans. With pale white skin and
blonde hair, they look human save their long, tear-drop shaped
ears. Rubien said they are a kind species who care about humans
and don�t interfere with the human culture.

Then there are the Zeta Reticuli, or Greys that standing three-
and-a-half, to four-and-a half-feet tall, with large heads on
thin bodies. They�re rumored to be the species that crash landed
in Roswell, New Mexico in the 1940�s and the also the aliens
thought to abduct human beings and extracting eggs and semen to
create a human-alien hybrid. While most of the Greys are good,
Rubien said there is a subspecies that totals 350

"But don�t be afraid. I really don�t have any fear. There is
good and bad in everything, and the gross majority of ET�s are
benign and helpful in many instances," Rubien said.

He gave an example of one woman he interviewed who claimed
aliens cured her of an advanced case of ovarian cancer.
According to Rubien, the woman describes an out of body
experience where she remembers floating over her body, watching
ET�s operating on her with a wand-like implement. He said she
later went to the doctor and discovered she was cured.

These days Rubien is retired from investigating UFO sightings,
but he does still help people in distress who believe they�ve
been abducted. A trained hypnotherapist, Rubien can sometimes
help people remember if they�ve had those experiences through
hypnosis.

He admits that a lot of what he�s discovered is hard to believe,
but there is something he is sure of.

"You�ve got to remember, our galaxy is so vast. How can we say
we are the only living beings in that tremendous area."


c. The Call 2004








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             Re: UFO Mystery Hovers Over And Divides Quiet Town

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:41:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 13:13:19 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Mystery Hovers Over And Divides Quiet Town


Source: The Plain Dealer - Cleveland, Ohio

http://www.cleveland.com/living/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/living/1091180171288
690.xml

08-01-04

UFO mystery hovers over and divides quiet town


Michael Sangiacomo
Plain Dealer Reporter

Kecksburg, Pa. - Except for the possible visitation by a UFO in
1965, Kecksburg does not see a lot of strangers.

You can't blame the tourists for staying away.

The only thing to distinguish Kecksburg from hundreds of other
tiny, western Pennsylvania towns is a mock-up of a
Volkswagen-size, acorn-shaped thing that sits atop a rickety
tripod in the gravel parking lot of the Kecksburg Fire Station.

The thing fits the description of what some people say they saw
being removed by the military after a spectacular fireball
crashed into the woods of the town many years ago.

That's about all there is to see in Kecksburg.

The village is home to fewer than 300 people. There are no gas
stations, grocery stores or souvenir shops. Just acres and acres
of acres and acres.

The mysterious incident that put the town on the map as
Pennsylvania's answer to Roswell, N.M., also divides the town.
Even now, 39 years after the crash, there are Kecksburgians who
won't speak to other Kecksburgians over disagreements on what
fell from the sky.

Unlike the town of Roswell, which embraces an alleged 1947 UFO
crash and encourages tourism, most of Kecksburg does not want the
notoriety.

There is no doubt that a huge fireball screamed out of the sky
early the evening of Dec. 9, 1965, and crashed in the woods. It's
what happened after that has people fussing.

Soon after the crash, thousands of rubberneckers drove in from
all over western Pennsylvania, eastern Ohio and northern
Virginia. They were met by dozens of military people. According
to reports, the Army, Air Force and National Guard were there, as
well as NASA.

More than a dozen people said they got close enough to see the
military removing a giant, copperish object on a flatbed truck
from the woods. The military denies that anything was recovered.
They also deny reports that the mysterious object was taken to
Columbus and later to the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base near
Dayton.

A coalition of curiosity seekers, backed by the big money of the
Sci Fi Channel, has sued the federal government for information
about the object. The suit is pending.

Meanwhile, curious folks from around the world contact the man
who has been investigating the crash for most of his life, Stan
Gordon, and ask about arranging tour buses to go to Kecksburg.

"I have to honestly tell them that they will be disappointed," he
said. "Besides the woods along Meteor Road [which is
indistinguishable from the miles of farmland that stretches in
all directions] and the replica, there is no recognition that
anything happened here."

The replica was given to the town in 1990 by the producers of
"Unsolved Mysteries" following a show about the crash.

"They stuck it on top of the firehouse, and I told them they
didn't do it right," said Bill Bulebush, 78, one of the local
residents who saw the object. "A few years later a big wind came
and blew it off. That's when they put it up on that thing, and
that's not exactly solid either."

The mock-up sits on top of a primitive triangle of wood held up
by three telephone poles. One of the poles leans ominously. There
is no plaque explaining what the mock-up is.

The truth is, not everybody in Kecksburg likes being known as the
town where "something" fell from the sky.

Mount Pleasant Journal newspaper editor Diana Lasko said some
don't want the town to be known as the place where "mountain
hillbillies saw a UFO."

"Why would we want people to come here?" said Avis Specht,
township secretary. "What would we get out of it?"

Tourist dollars? An identity? Souvenir sales?

"Please, no one wants to come here," she said. "There's nothing
here."

A man poked his head out of an office and said, "We are the
aliens. We've settled here. We want others to stay away."

Specht rolled her eyes.

"Besides, I was here when it fell; nobody ever saw what it was,"
she said.

"That's not true. I was here, and I saw what it was," said Jerry
Betters, a 72-year-old jazz drummer from nearby Connellsville. "I
saw it on a truck coming out of the woods. I saw the copper
capsule on the truck."

Kecksburg is about 85 miles east of the Ohio border in
Pennsylvania, a short distance off the turnpike. Greensburg is
the closest town of any significance.

Gordon said he gets telephone calls and e-mails constantly from
people around the world asking about the incident at Kecksburg.
Many want to come visit the site.

"I don't want to discourage them. I say it's a great place to
visit on the way to somewhere else."

Mickey Vish, the helpful tourist guide at the Zelienople rest
area on the turnpike, agreed.

"I get a few people asking about Kecksburg, but a lot more asking
about Shanksville, where Flight 93 crashed on 9/11," she said. "I
often recommend visiting several places in the area to make a
whole trip out of it."

She suggests also visiting the Frank Lloyd Wright houses "Falling
Water" and "Kentuck Knob," both nearby, and the Quecreek Mine
Rescue Memorial in Sipesville, where nine miners were rescued
after a cave-in in 2002.

The Kecksburg acorn will be there, assuming the structure has not
collapsed. And if you're lucky, you might see Bill Bulebush
nearby working on his prized Corvair.

He'll be happy to tell you all about it.

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

msangiacomo.nul, 216-999-4890








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   Aug > Aug 1

                         Re: Apollo 16 Film - Franz

From: Capt Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 03:06:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 13:39:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Apollo 16 Film - Franz


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:18:47 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Apollo 16 Film

>>From: James Oberg <joberg.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:28:20 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Apollo 16 Film - Oberg

<snip>

>Hi Jim!

>Thanks to a letter from U.S. Congressman Dutch Ruppersberger of
>Maryland to NASA regarding the Apollo 16 UFO film footage, we
>now have an official explanation for this anomalous image that
>looks like a domed flying saucer in the immediate vicinity of
>the Moon.

>Responding to a request from Congress, Gregory Byrne, leader of
>the Image Science and Analysis Group at Johnson Space Center
>with five others closely examined the actual Apollo 16 film and
>they concluded that this UFO was actually a floodlight that was
>attached to the Command Module by a boom that was hidden in the
>shadows.

>According to the article 'The Truth Is Out There' written by
>Beth Dickey that appears on page 11 of the August/September 2004
>issue of 'Air&Space Smithsonian', this group also searched
>NASA's archives from other missions and found similar images. Do
>these "similar images" also look like domed flying saucers and
>could all these also be explained as spacecraft floodlights used
>for space walks and other EVAs?

>Unless we can get to read the report, if any, by this group of
>NASA experts, we should not be quick to disregard all the
>different explanations that others, including yourself and
>Hiroshi Nakamura previously published and later proposed on UFO
>UpDates or to us by private e-mails. Any chance of obtaining a
>copy of this report from JSC in Houston and make it available to
>ufologists and space researchers?



Hi Nick and all,

James Smith did a great report on the Apollo 16 UFO Image to be
a description of the EVA floodlight on the CSM since september
29, 2003.


Apollo 16 UFO Image
September 29,2003
By James Smith
http://home.earthlink.net/~zeus001002/apollo_16_ufo.html

Regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director.nul







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   Aug > Aug 1

                       Spacey Lifestyle Draws Curious

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 08:27:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 13:44:27 -0400
Subject: Spacey Lifestyle Draws Curious


Source: Charleton Post and Courier, Charleton North Carolina

http://www.charleston.net/stories/080104/sta_01ufo.shtml

08-01-04

Spacey lifestyle draws curious

Double-deck saucer serves as home and 'UFO center'

BY BO PETERSEN

BOWMAN--Fame hasn't gone to that space between Jody Pendarvis'
ears. His UFO Welcome Center is still ramshackle.

He's built a second flying saucer on top of his now notorious
flying saucer and moved into a control room in between. The
whole works now dwarf the beat-up trailer he keeps alongside.
And it's all up in the air - on cinder blocks.

In fact, the original saucer was repositioned 26 inches closer
to earth and "stabilizer" wood beams were hammered along the rim
after one of those tour groups that keep dropping by got it
wobbling. Codes officers said that wouldn't do.

For extraterrestrials passing through rural Bowman on S.C. 36,
the center - like any good welcome center - can't be missed. The
giant saucers loom behind a rustic post and metal fence just
across the road from a country home flying two American flags.

Nearly 10 years after Pendarvis laid the first nail to a tongue-
in-cheek joke of a backyard project, it has become one of those
eccentric bits of Americana that tickle the fancy.

The center was beamed into the cosmos, via satellite, when
Pendarvis appeared on Roseanne Barr's TV talk show. He's been
written up in newspapers and magazines worldwide, roasted on
TV's "Liars & Legends," "Comedy Central" and Japanese
television.

Ring the bell at the "tour" gate and nobody seems to be home.
But a long ramp begins to winch eerily down from the saucer to
the ground.

Pendarvis emerges with a shrug. He does the now well-rehearsed
routine of stopping in the middle of a sentence to stare off at
something in the sky. He talks about sightings with his eyebrows
jumping up and down for comic effect.

The "U" of "UFO" spray-painted on the saucer wall is dangling
loose. It's a strip of silver tar paper.

As Pendarvis walks across a dirt launch pad strewn with tar
paper, scrap wood, pontoon-like old jet gas tanks and an
EverStart battery, there's a loud pop. One of the portal windows
of the new, "upper" saucer has dropped out.

"Uh-oh. There goes one of my pie plates." The window is, in
fact, a glass pie plate.In 1995, Pendarvis set out to build a
Christmas float with planks from his grandfather's torn-down
house. That turned into a shed office. That turned into a
mystery. The further the construction got off-center, the more
neighbors asked exactly what he was building. He no longer knew.

But he began selling $1 tickets to its grand opening, and after
awhile something emerged that was, um, alien.

Whether UFOs arrive or not, the center has put Bowman on the
map. Visitors from as far away as England have detoured down
two-lane country roads to find this smidgeon of a farming town.

Riding past on his Huffy bike, neighbor Edward White stopped to
smile. "It's all right. Everyone in South Carolina knows it's
here. It's excellent."

Pendarvis treats it all with that same hands-in-his-pockets
sense of homespun fun - he built it and, look, they came. "Oh,
man, they love my tour. They want to bring their kids," he said.

The tour is a watch-your-step odyssey through a split-split
level treehouse of science fiction and messy living. Pendarvis
is a 53-year-old bachelor who works at a plant that builds
lawnmowers in nearby Orangeburg.

The walls are eerie patterns of portals, lights, pipes and
wiring. The floor is strewn with purple wrappers from Nestle's
Treasures chocolates and Raid cans. He spends summers in a bunk
in the control room because a Rube Goldberg contraption of air-
conditioner, window fan-on-a-chair and air ducts keeps it cooler
than the mobile home.

He spends winters in the old trailer because it's warmer.

The crafts have debris everywhere and mud daubers hovering with
celestial grace. There's a computer in one wing and a toilet in
another. Obsolete military and nautical radar and yard ladders
between floors climb to the De-Gravitron - a 70-pound bad-hair-
day of PVC pipes and hoses, sitting on a scale.

So far, the invention hasn't been able to lift off. But when it
does, the scale will show it.

Pendarvis squeezes like an astronaut through the hatch to the
upper saucer. He turns on the radar and the wood beams begin to
hum. He speculatively taps the hinged boards of the walls and
talks about how he held onto one of the lower craft's skylights
during Hurricane Floyd to keep it from blowing away.

If he gets a big enough wind, he says, "this ship'll fly."








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                         Re: Apollo 16 Film - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 10:39:58 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 13:47:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Apollo 16 Film - Ledger


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:49:34 -0500
>Subject: Re: Apollo 16 Film


>Nick and List,

>A very good article on this with photos, at:

>http://www.nasa.gov/vision/space/travelinginspace/no_ufo.html

No doubt in my mind - it was the light boom.


Don Ledger








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                   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:44:42 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 14:31:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:54:35 +0100
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:53:18 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:07:18 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>I agree with you that this field would be improved by having a
>>>set of fundamental understood ideas about the origin,
>>>technology, and motives.

><snip>

>>>I can imagine a "think-tank" style institute... how about
>>>ITISAUFO... Institute for Technical Investigation and Scientific
>>>Analysis of UFOs. A "Brookings Institute" for UFO studies.

>>>I fear you are right in thinking that it would fall by bickering
>>>and in-fighting. It's not a money issue.

>>Sounds to me like work statements for Operation Majestic 12:

>>1. Evaluate wreckage seeking understanding and new knowledge
>>about materials, technological capabaility of devices, etc.
>>These data would be classified

>What for?

Development of new very advanced technology involving the
capability of extreme flight maneuverability, silent flight,
operation without wasting energy carrying along fuel which gets
used up, etc etc would obviously be of extraordinary interest to
military groups all over the world. Therefore it would be kept
secret.

>>2. Collect and evaluate instrumental data on flight behavior
>>including acceleration, change in em signatures as a function of
>>changes in direction.etc.These data would be classified.

>Again, what for?

See answer to Q 1.

>>3. Collect and evaluate data from physical trace cases. check on
>>means for effecting soil etc. - again in secret.

>Still operating in secret after 57 years? Why?


If your enemies are in the dark, keep them there. If you admit
ET reality,one has to deal with the consequences as I have noted
elsewhere.

>>4. Theoretical evaluation putting 1, 2, 3 together.

>But still in secret I presume.

Ever no anyone in power who wantedto give it up? Knowledge is
Power.

>>5. Evaluation of alien behavior in abductions and in probable
>>events such as the April 1964 landing at Holloman, and in cases
>>such as the Cuban MIG case and other destructions of attacking
>>aircraft such as in 1952. When did they destroy.. after what
>>actions on our part?

>>Ought to keep a nice Black program busy for a long time.

Indeed.

>Very black indeed by now.

>>Do note my latest MJ-12 paper at:

>>http://www.stanfriedman.com

>I have duly noted this paper.

>Not hearing the Friedman/Shostak debate I assume that Stan kept
>MJ-12 out of it (very wise man).

>I have examined Stan's latest MJ-12 paper of April 2004. This
>contains, among other things, repeats of his earlier paper in
>December 2002 where he reviews Randle's book "Case MJ-12....."

>STF is still convinced the three original MJ-12 papers are
>genuine, even if the later ones are obvious fakes. I am utterly
>baffled by his treatment of the Truman-Forrestal memo of Sept
>24, 1947.

>>From his two papers above, his conclusions on the T-F memo
>may be summarised thus:

>1. The numeric part of the date, "24, 1947." is offset a little.
>Agreed. This presents Stan with an awkward dilemma. He concludes
>that this part was added later by someone. Agreed. There is also
>a period (full stop) after the date. It was not Truman's
>practice to put a period after a date, but it was Bush's
>practice. Therefore, says Stan, Bush must have seen the letter
>before it was sent to Forrestal, and added the numeric part
>himself, with the period, thus explaining why the two parts of
>the date are not quite lined up. Truman, or his secretary, typed
>the "September", whilst Bush, or his secretary, added the "24,
>1947".

George Elsey who worked for Truman all the time he was Pres. and
for FDR before that says most of what a President signs
isprepared by others. Bush andForrestal were highly trusted. GE
also said that often the date was added at the last minute
because there were uncertainties as to just when an order would
be put into effect. September ,1947, was a very busy time with
Truman having been off to Brazil, the New National Security
regulations going into effect, the Italian election, etc
etc..Let us say Sam Callaway in Bush's office prepared the memo
without a date which would be added later as appropriate.It
waskept in a "Pending File". The date was added before VB and JF
went to theWhite House. It was taken to theWhite House and
signed. No Truman typing required. In my 108 page "Final Report
on Operation Majestic 12", I, in my "discussion" with Klass
about Pica type, showed several dates on NSC memos done in
different type style than the text.

>Is this really credible? Is a date ever (even in official
>circles) split in this way, by different people?

See above.. what different people?

>Or is it Stan's ingenious way round a very awkward dilemma?

>He then says the document cannot be a forgery because no forger
>would ever use two typewriters in one memo. Quite right. He
>wouldn't and didn't.

There was no forgery. Forgers make every effort, whether in
paintings or documents, to avoid doing anything to call
attention to themselves.

>2. Truman's signature. Stan first refuses to admit it is
>identical, as far as the eye can see, to one on a genuine Truman
>memo written to Bush on Oct.1, 1947. (It was Stan who first drew
>attention to the fact that one "matched" the other in an IUR
>article in 1988. Had he kept his mouth shut, the genuine Truman-
>Bush memo would most certainly never have been found).

>He now says the original T-F memo was signed but none of the
>carbon copies were. This is entirely possible. However, Stan
>tells us that because Forrestal had died in 1949 his (original)
>was apparently lost. By 1952 Hillenkoetter thought Ike would
>like to see a signed executive order from president Truman to go
>with the briefing he (Hillenkoetter) was preparing for Ike in
>November 1952. But the original, signed, T-F memo was nowhere to
>be found. This does not worry Stan, who proposes that, in order
>to fill this void, Hillenkoetter, or possibly W.Bedell Smith,
>asked the CIA to get hold of a Truman signature somehow. The CIA
>then decided to lift Truman's signature from the genuine Bush
>memo of Oct 1, 1947 and copy it onto the unsigned carbon copy of
>the Sept 24, 1947 T-F memo before Hillenkoetter passed it to Ike
>in the notorious Nov '52 briefing paper!! He says "the CIA would
>have its disinformation people transfer it".

>(I wonder what Truman's reaction would be had he discovered that
>some smart guy in the CIA had, without permission, transferred
>his signature from one document to another! Remember Truman was
>still President at this time.)

>According to STF, this accounts for the two signatures being
>(almost) identical.

>Does anyone follow all this? A trifle confusing perhaps? More
>important: Is such a scenario, once again, really credible ?

>In my view it belongs in the world of pure fantasy.

>Anyone wanting to know how the "September 24, 1947" date was
>actually composed can look at Moore & Shandera's "The MJ-12
>Documents, An Analytical Report", p.53 . The forger simply
>lifted the numeric part of the date on document D and pasted it
>onto C, offsetting it very slightly against "September".

>Hence only one typewriter was used, not two.

>As to why the forger needed to split the date like this, people
>can work this out for themselves, if they are still interested.

>Finally:

>Regarding "Linguistics", STF omits to tell readers that
>Dr Roger Wescott (who was chosen to do the analysis
>because of his known pro-UFO beliefs) later
>changed his mind about endorsing the Hillenkoetter briefing.
>I have his letter to researchers on this.

>"What the public doesn't know, I wont tell them".

>Exactly.


>CDA

I am glad that CDA can get inside everybody's mind when it is
convenient for his scenarios. Wescott wanted out because he
didn't want to waste his time dealing with attacks from Klass et
al. The Briefing officer was Hillenkoetter (DCI in September
,1947) but we know from a memo from W.B. Smith to Truman dated
January 9, 1953, (in my Final Report) that Smith, who had worked
very closely with Ike during WW 2, and was DCI in 1952, was,
generally speaking, in charge of national Security briefings for
Ike between the election and Ike's inauguration . Hilly would
have been contact with him prior to the Nov. 18, 1952 briefing.
It doesn't seem unlikely the EBE would have been typed at the
CIA.


Stan Friedman








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   Aug > Aug 1

                        Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd  - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:09:08 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 14:34:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:41:45 +0000
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:53:01 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:17:08 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:30:16 -0400
>>>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

<snip>

>All right, I can't resist any longer. Although I have not
>followed this thread (out of sheer disinterest) except for an
>occasional peek, I suggest they be renamed the "Varginha
>Monologues."  The joke, for our overseas contributors who may
>not be aware of it, derives from the stage play the "Vagina
>Monologues."

Hello Dick,

I have watched the stage play you mentioned, translated into
Portuguese, in a local theatre. I just do not understand what
the connection is of the Vagina Monologues with the Varginha
Case... It is because the posts I published here have not been
commented on by other readers?


A. J.








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   Aug > Aug 1

                         Michael Horn On Meir On C2C

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:02:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:02:14 -0400
Subject: Michael Horn On Meir On C2C




Source: ECETI News - Yahoo Group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eceti/message/1280


From: James Gilliland - ecetiwebmaster<ecetiwebmaster.nul>
Date: Sat Jul 31, 2004  9:29 pm
Subject: Response to Michael Horn on the George Noory Coast to Coast
         show


Dear George,

I respect Michael Horn's work with Billy Meir's contacts yet believe
he like many others involved in the case become blinded in certain
aspects. One Billy Meir in his own words in the Beamship Video says
the contacts stopped and it was his job to produce the best photos
and video of the ships. His son came to the International UFO
Congress and said the exact same thing. It is all on record. Wendle
Stevens one of the major investigators of the case said he does not
understand why Billy keeps rebuking all other contactees when the
evidence shows clearly the contrary. The contacts stopped and it was
Billy's job to just get the photos. Billy says he is the only
contactee yet in his books the Pleadians/Plejarans say there are
over serval thousand contactees? Billy also states that he is the
one true prophet chosen by God to be on the Earth at this time. He
says all the other prophets are false. There are people donating
over twenty percent of their income to FIGU with no rights or
guarantees to even communicate with Billy or visit? Billy calls all
the other groups cults yet there is a giant stone with a golden
image of Billy when you visit the center which makes one wonder.

Billy also stated that the crop circles were all dubiuous hoaxes
having nothing to do with ETs. He later said the ETs told him they
were created by ETs which were far less evolved then them. Billy has
publicly slandered crop circle researchers, ufo researchers and
anyone else claiming to have a contact. I do not believe this is
the conduct of a master for there is clearly a lack of love,
forgiveness and allowance exhibited by true masters. We sent Billy a
video in the past asking him to shed some light on the contacts and
sightings in the area. What we received in return was a scathing and
slanderous letter soon after posted on his site. Billy stated that
due to problems with the group consciosness and his own instability
the contacts stopped yet whenever they need to drum up business the
contacts are ongoing? I decided to give Billy one more chance. I
sent him a video of the latest footage which shows clearly extremely
advanced craft far beyond anything we have back engineered. I know
this because I am good friends with some of the people involved in
the back engineering, the best of the best. I will introduce you to
one of them in the future yet he cannot go public due to the obvious
reasons. Michael Horn said Billy went into his study and said the
ETs joined him to watch the video then came out and said there is no
contact happening there and it is only secret government. We have
had ships in every shape, color and size ruling out this statement.
There are plasma ships far beyond the ships Billy has had contact
with yet his group knows nothing of any of the activity here.
Something is wrong with this picture. I knew at first sight the
majority of the crop circles were real, not hoaxes and created by
ETs. I do not demand a portion of peoples income and the majority of
the research, the purchase of the land and the building of the
structures was done personally. I even financed the books and videos
which do not even cover the costs of the utilities on the ranch. The
donations over the 17 years add up to around 5,000 dollars. I
deplore worship of anyone other than the God within yet I have been
accused of running a cult, capitalizing on the UFO phenomena and
faking the evidence. Right now the cult consists of myself, my
girlfriend, a caretaker a dog three cats and 19 chickens. I find it
interesting that those pointing the fingers are looking in a mirror
for they themsleves are doing the very thing they accuse others of.
The long history of UFO activity in the area speaks for itself.

The thousands of witnesses, pictures and videos many taken by
guests and UFO investigators the likes of Dr. J Allen Hynek, Greg
Long, Bill Voguel, and the famous Kenneth Arnold sighting where he
lost sight of the ships decending on the western slopes of Mt
Adams,"my front yard", all speak for themselves. The Tribal Police,
Forrest Rangers, Local Police, Fire Tower Spotters have gone on
record concerning the activity in the area yet what makes this
experience special is the contacts. There has been a proven track
record of ships appearing exactly at the time and location given
prior to the event. This has been done redundantly with multiple eye
witnesses. This shows clearly a form of communication with the
ships. I was with Marcel Voguel who analyzed the metal samples given
to him by Billy Meir. They definitely were of unknown origin. I do
believe the contacts were real in the beginning and some great
information came out of them yet something has degenerated with the
original information and the integrity of the group. I do believe
Billy should be commended for his previous work and compensated. I
also believe anything that distracts people from making their own
personal connection through worship outside of self is a path that
needs some serious discernment. The ability to see the future,
telepathy and self rejuvination is dormant within all of us. It is
in the 13 strands of DNA only two of which are now operating. These
can be activated spiritually and through technology. I don't believe
there is a one true healer, prophet or seer of the past and future.
There are many who have activated one or more of these DNA lines.

Most importantly Einstein stated, "Condemnation without
investigation is the height of ignorance". It is important that each
individual perform their own investigation, have their own
experience as thousands have had at the ranch regardless of the so
called authorities. I would ask each guest that has an opinion on
the ongoing UFO activity occuring at the ranch if they have been to
the ranch. If they have not then they cannot make an informed
opinion on the matter. I have had many conversations with Michael
Horn on these matters which I chose to keep private. I do not
believe in attacking or trying to discredit anyone. Yet by making it
public on your show Michael Horn has generated the need for a
response due to hundreds of emails on the matter. This is my
response. You are always welcome to have your own experience, do
your own investigation as many others have here at the ranch. It
will be an experience you won't forget. Looking forward to your
arrival. Keep up the geat work.

PS I would appreciate posting this response on the site and
mentioning it on the show.

Be well

James

http://www.eceti.org/index1.html


[UFO UpDates thanks Terry <hogoddy.nul> & the Skyopen List
 for the lead]








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   Aug > Aug 1

                        Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO\ <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:24:32 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:13:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:50:03 +0200
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:41:45 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

<snip>

>>All right, I can't resist any longer. Although I have not
>>followed this thread (out of sheer disinterest) except for an
>>occasional peek, I suggest they be renamed the "Varginha
>>Monologues."  The joke, for our overseas contributors who may
>>not be aware of it, derives from the stage play the "Vagina
>>Monologues."

>This time, I am not going to say that I find you funny, like I
>did after a silly joke of Brad Sparks. Someone thought I was
>taking side with him ! I was not.

>So, "let's make things clear", like President Nixon used to say:
>I don't find this funny at all!

>The Varginha case already stands as a very strong one, with many
>credible witnesses. If some phony pictures have appeared, they
>don't change that. And the fact there have been some confusing
>messages about the remarkable testimony of a Doctore, should not
>change that either. Read again the article of Bob Pratt and
>Cynthia Luce in the Mufon UFO Journal of August 1998, for
>instance, or any other article. I just quoted one from the
>British UFO Magazine (April 2003) which apparently nobody knows
>on this list.

>BTW, talking of bad cases, I recommend that you take out of your
>excellent book "The UFO Evidence" the Ummo case, which is known
>worldwide to be a hoax. The authors of the fake landing of
>Alluche (1966) and of the fake pictures of San Jose de Valdeiras
>(1967) were unmasked long ago by spanish ufologists.


Dear Gildas and Dick:

Gildas, you mention that "the Varginha Case already stands as a
very strong one, with many credible witnesses". I tell you for
sure that the VC is probably the strongest case we have today.

There are 80 first-hand witnesses who saw the capture procedures
or took part in them - including military and firemen - in the
removal of the bodies and treatment of an alive alien -
including doctors and nurses, as well as employees of different
hospitals.

You write about "phony pictures have appeared, that don't change
that". In fact, in the VC, unlike many many others, there are
very few phony pictures and they have all been easily dismissed.

Finally you write, "the fact there have been some confusing
messages about the remarkable testimony of a Doctor, should not
change that either". I must emphasize, again, that there has been
_some_ confusion with the translation of the "Doctor's" report
only. _Nothing_more_.

The "Doctor" - and I continue to use the quotes - is a very
reliable witness who gave the world UFO community a report that
very few others have done before. I cannot recollect one health
professional involved in a UFO case before who haas given such
an outstanding and remarkable report as 'our' "Doctor". I am
only sorry that he will never agree to be identified by name.
And I was recently informed by Ubirajara that he is not willing
to talk about this issue any more, not even in very private
discussion.


All the best,

A. J.








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   Aug > Aug 1

                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:19:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:20:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:58:00 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:35:51 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>Yes, I was just using my common sense and what I've learned by
>>our photographic field work which tells me how truly anomalous
>>UFOs present photographically. Photographed models and
>>airbrushed images never have what it takes.

>Mr Stanford,

>Can you tell me if your book, Look Up, is still in publication?

>I would like to read a copy of it, can you point me to one?



Roy,

Although you are clearly on a 'fishing expedition', I will
respond in depth to your inquiry.

Since I self-published that little 66-page book at age 19, 45
years ago, in early 1958, it has been long out-of-print and I
never re-published it because before very long I began to
realize that the wide-eyed Adamskian 'contactee' interpretation
I had placed upon the otherwise genuine and well-witnessed UFO
encounters described in that book was fanciful and tainted by my
teenage belief in the contact and fake UFO photos of George
Adamski. But to compensate, within a few years I was actively
exposing Adamski's hoaxes and fake photos publicly, along with
the contact hoax and fake UFO movie(s) and photos fabricated by
Daniel W. Fry, whom I never believed. That experience with
Adamski and that whole 1950s 'contactee' crowd, is why I am so
dubious of the 'will-to- believe'. I've been through that and
know what damage it can do to one's objectivity.

Whether one likes how I presented Look Up, or not (I don't.),
tell me how many other youths have the enthusiasm and
determination to write a book (I didn't have word-processing
back then, either, to make the writing easier.) at age 18 (just
out of high school) and 19, and raise the money to pay a printer
to print it by working at a shoe store, in order to let people
know their experiences with UFOs or anything else. Let me assure
you that it took some very impressive UFO encounters and a
pretty dedicated young man to undertake such an effort. If you
or anyone else on this list would like to try to shame me for
that kind of dedication, then the person you shame is yourself
and not me. I never had any hope or delusion about making enough
money to even pay myself back for the printing of the book,
copies of which I sold for immense sum of $2! No, I was simply
on fire inside with excitement to share personal experiences
that I knew could not possibly involve objects of terrestrial
origin, even though in my excitement, I was reading too much
into some of my experiences, especially some of those that did
not involve UFOs, per se. Boys will be boys! Youth will be
youth!

But aside from the book's contactee idiom of presentation and
interpretation, it quite honestly reported the visual (and
auditory) events, of our multi-witness encounters with UFOs. In
the 10-21-56 encounter, my group of four (All of us swore a
notarized affidavit published in the book.), the object involved
was a blue-white, glow-pulsing oblate spheroid 30-40 feet across
that didn't look anything like Adamski's fictional lampshade
'scout craft'.

It twice passed within six feet above our heads. That was a bit
too close for comfort, causing our voluntary muscles to become
immobilized, and causing a sensation of a pulsed electrostatic
charge through our bodies and hair as it passed over us (twice),
causing our hair to lift up and go back down, alternately --
 except for one of the witnesses, who had a 'flat-top' haircut,
so his hair stood up all the time. :) To explain further: our
hair raised up and down in pulses, the hair lift-up part
coinciding with the higher-amplitude component of a pulsing,
rather complex sound coming from the object. I'm not sure, but
Look Up may have provided one of the earliest descriptions of an
unmistakable electrostatic effect from a UFO to appear in the
literature. There are many, now.

A less-exciting, eleven-witness encounter described in Look Up,
occurred on November 6, 1954, on the Gulf of Mexico beach on the
south end of the 100+ mile long sand-bar type Padre Island --
 quite unpopulated back then, but crowded with tourist hotels
and condominiums in recent years. There were eleven witnesses
(all of them named in the book) to the seemingly (not knowing
object size) fairly close approach to us of an golden, glowing,
domed disc. There had been an earlier UFO encounter that night,
but the police had not arrived when that happened. Three of the
witnesses to the domed disc were police officers, comprised of
Texas State Highway Patrol Officer Don Hoyd; his father, Deputy
Sheriff Ray Hoyd; and Deputy Sheriff Steve Woods. The notarized
affidavits (attesting to their witnessing the Padre Island UFO)
of the two Deputy Sheriffs were reproduced in the book, along
with a photo of the State Patrol Officer, Don Hoyd, and his
father, Ray Hoyd, handing me the elder Hoyd's affidavit. Ray
Hoyd was quite willing to pose for the photo for publication
with my account of the UFO encounter, but declined to sign a
notarized affidavit because of lack of clearance from a superior
officer in the State Police.

During that November 6, 1954, UFO experience, we had tried
stabilizing a cheapie little view-through-the-top small-aperture
camera (containing black and white film) atop a rather point-
topped cedar fence post and apparently succeeded in getting one
photo of the domed disc, but because the domed disc in the
resultant photo seemed a bit more horizontally 'stretched out'
compared to what we actually observed visually and did, thus,
not faithfully represent what we observed, we did not publish
that single photo. The horizontal elongation of the object's
image was probably due to trying to take a time exposure (a few
seconds, only) atop the fence post where, in all likelihood, the
camera rotated a bit (due to pressure on the shutter button) in
the horizontal plane, providing the distortion. Furthermore,
there was a foolish dictum around in UFOlogy in those days
saying that if a photo does not show exactly what the witnesses
described it is either a hoax or, otherwise, worthless! That
concerned us.

Had we been dishonest, we could have published that photo and
claimed the UFO dome and flange actually had looked that flat,
but, instead, I just put the photo away in my file on the case.
In fact, I cannot truthfully say with absolute certainty that it
was I who took that photo, because several others tried to
steady their hand on the camera and take a photo with the camera
atop the fence post that night.

It may be of further interest to note that, in evidence of our
honesty, we took that little camera with the unprocessed film
still in it to the Corpus Christi (Texas) newspaper, the Caller-
Times, and gave it to reporter Spencer "Bones" Pearson to
process in the newspaper darkroom, without any of us being
present. When Pearson came back out with what seemed a blank
film except for that one shot of the object and, seeing it was
not the somewhat 'fatter' domed disc we had perceived when
thinking we might be about to witness the landing of a
comparatively 'fat' Adamaki 'scout craft', we decided not to
publish the photo at that time. It never dawned on us that,
quite aside from camera instability likely accounting for the
horizontal stretch of the UFO image beyond what we had
remembered, we probably had perceptually distorted the domed
disc we had been watching that night into something more closely
resembling the 'Venusian scout craft' shown in photos of our
hero, George Adamski! The November 6 Padre Island photo shows an
edge-on view of what looks like a quite flat disc with a slight
downward point in the center of the bottom side and a rather
flat seeming dome on top (of maybe slightly under half of the
disc's diameter).

If you click on http://platinumstudios.com/titles/ufomag.php you
will see in the UFO Magazine partial-cover depicted there, an
artist's presentation of a UFO that, if you imagine the object
depicted edge-on (instead of what's shown) , and reduce the
bulge on the bottom part by about 60% (and make it a bit more
pointed) you will have a pretty accurate concept of the outline
of what's shown in the November 6 Padre Island photo.

In the photo, however, what resemble pointed 'beams of light'
seem to gleam off the edge of the dome and flange, at places.
The photo is not very impressive to me, simply because I don't
see anything in it that seems unambiguously propulsion-
diagnostic, and that's the way I prefer UFO films and photos.
The beam-like things in the photo are a bit interesting,
however, because I don't recall our seeing individual beams, per
se. We did notice that the domed disc seemed to quickly 'gleam'
(hard to describe) at times. Maybe those 'gleams' were what were
captured coming off the disc in the photo. I seem to recall that
some of us who witnessed the Padre Island UFO might have
speculated that the pointed beams in the photo were some type of
propulsion effect used in keeping the object oriented.

In Look Up I rather timidly described the observation by eight
of us on the night of January 5, 1957, of a very bizarre beam of
light striking three of us, that had extended slowly toward us
from a large, black UFO that came in from the west-northwest and
hovered just to the southeast of us, on the north end of Padre
Island. That time, we were not on a beach but in the east-west
middle of the island, half-way between the Gulf of Mexico and
Laguna Madre, to the west. I mention that event here just to
point out that we were the first persons in UFO history (so far
as I can determine) to report the now famous phenomenon of a
'slowly-telescoping' light beam, which some persons refer to
(hopefully only figuratively) as a 'solid' light beam.

The main column of the slowly progressing beam of January 5,
1957, was more subtle than its three more narrow, lengthwise,
internal components which were much brighter, reminding us of
tightly stretched Christmas tree tinsel, twisting and
'scintillating' in sunlight. That 'telescoping' beam struck only
the three of us who were separated from the others, but it
packed a 'wallop' that sent the three of us (as long as it was
on us) into some kind of awesome altered brain function that I
will never forget but do not pretend to comprehend.

That beam's effect on our brains was as bizarre as its
appearance, transforming our awareness into a kind of seemingly
timeless, 'cosmic ecstasy'. I have never figured out the purpose
of that action on the part of the UFO intelligences, if there
was any purpose other than, maybe, to experiment with our minds
or perhaps, even, just to 'humble' three maybe-a-bit-egotistical
18-year-olds with an experience they couldn't even begin to
understand. What I know is that it was totally awesome and
overwhelming. It was also totally unexpected and no such thing
had ever been described in UFO literature, so the three of us
found ourselves as strangers in a very 'strange land'
(experience)!

Forty-seven years later, slowly progressing beams of various
types are commonplace in UFO literature, and I even got a nice
daylight movie of a UFO 'projecting' and, later, 'retracting'
such a beam (electric blue with magenta nodes), on October 5,
1985, at the Corpus Christi, Texas, bay-front, filmed from the
Emerald Cove breakwater pier, with five others there watching
what was happening and watching me making a movie of it through
a 10-X lens.

If anyone alleges that it is shameful of me to report such a
bizarre, eight-witness experience as that of January 5, 1957,
and that it is a discredit to UFOlogy or to me as a researcher
working for years now with good cameras and other instruments to
gather the kind of evidence that may bring UFOlogy into
mainstream science, I don't agree. We must report UFOs and their
associated phenomena not as we had envisioned them to be in the
early days of UFOlogy, not as we might wish or hypothesize them
to be today, but we must have the courage to report and
investigate them, confronting the high strangeness that they
often manifest. Who among us can explain what has been called,
'the Oz effect'? Who can even explain the fact that there have
been UFO witnesses, face-to-face with each other in a close
encounter, who were startled to realize that although they spoke
loudly, neither could hear the other speak!? I speak of the
strange seemingly UFO-induced "silence" so often reported. I
suspicion that if we could come to understand the physics of
those phenomena, we might learn some of the most instructive
lessons of UFO physics. That might also be true of the January
5, 1957, beam.

Keep in mind that on January 5, 1957, when three of us got
'zonked' by that bizarre beam, there were still five other
witnesses, unaffected by it, who watched us get enclosed in that
beam, from fairly close-by. They not only watched in wonderment
while that beam engulfed us, they saw us loose normal
consciousness, collapse onto the sand on our knees while that
beam was enclosing us, then they watched us rise up after the
beam had slowly withdrawn from us and 'stagger' toward them
somewhat like sea-sick neophyte sailors on their first 'break-
in' cruise! Sorry, my friends, but the prudent don't throw out
an eight-witness case like that, just because it doesn't sound
like today's normally far-less-well-witnessed claims of
abduction. What kind of celebration would some of you abduction
researchers have upon learning of an eight-witness case?

Finally, although described using my contactee idiom of the
time, in Look Up I wrote that UFOs can behave as "second bodies
for their pilots", explaining my intuitive sense that without
even touching any controls, UFO operators maneuver their
vehicles at the behest of thought. Because, years later,
research by Stanford Research Institute in California developed
both hardware and software enabling jet aircraft to respond to
their pilot's thoughts without the time delay of transferring a
maneuver order to mechanical controls (a great help in combat, I
should think), I feel vindicated. Some of you may have seen the
demonstration of that mind-controlling of an aircraft on network
TV a few years back. I don't recall on which network it was
broadcast or the program name, but maybe some of you can provide
that information, for anyone interested.

So, Roy, although I do not have a copy of Look Up for you, I
have shared some of the content of that book.

Now I must declare, Roy, that if (as one might suspicion) you
were bringing up the subject of my rather irresponsible teenage
writing in a covert attempt at retribution because I may have
embarrassed you by exposing the book of fake UFO photos you were
declaring to be of extreme interest, then the joke's on you.

At age 66, and for decades now, I have been happy to admit and
discuss my teenage indiscretion and any self-deception in which
I engaged as a believer in Adamski. In fact, I delight in
persons bringing it up so I can set the record straight and make
my current and decades-long very different approach to UFO
studies clear. I hope some of the presently wide-eyed can take a
lesson from, and benefit from, my teenage journey into
'contactee land', so thanks for the opportunity to once more
share with others, without looking as though I had spoken
entirely out-of-turn.

A thoughtful person admits past indiscretions and mistakes and,
benefiting by his own personal recognition of such, grows beyond
them.

Well, now that I have once more explained my 45-year-old book's
teen-age stylistic and interpretative indiscretions (and some of
its important, well substantiated UFO accounts) for the last
time on this list, may we, in exchange, please be told whether
you still think Richard Brunswick's Photo Collection book's
phony photos are impressive?

Of course, I'm sure my personal explanation of your recommended
book as containing only fake photos did not convince you, but
hopefully the information reported in Friday's posting to this
list by widely respected V-J Ballester Olmos, Director of
FOTOCAT, should have convinced you, unless, of course, this is a
religious instead of a scientific issue with you.

From 'pipsqueaks' through Presidents, the ability or inability
to recognize and admit one's error or indiscretion, tells a lot
about a person.


Cheers,

Ray Stanford








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   Aug > Aug 1

                 Brazilian Astronaut Joins UFO Organisation

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:24:51 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:25:32 -0400
Subject: Brazilian Astronaut Joins UFO Organisation


Dear colleagues:

It is a great pleasure to inform that the Lieutenant-Colonel
Marcos Cesar Pontes, the first Brazilian astronaut associated
with NASA and scheduled for his first space flight in 2006, has
accepted the invitation to join Brazilian UFO Magazine's Board
of Counselors.

Pontes was interviewed last May by the magazine's representative
in Sumare - journalist Wendell Stein - and declared firm belief
in life outside Earth. He was then invited to be an official
consultant the magazine and confirmed on July 30th his
acceptance.

With this, the Brazilian UFO Magazine is the first publication
in this field in the world to have an astronaut on its board.
Pontes has a most remarkable record for hours of flight in
Brazil and has tested dozens of different aircraft.

http://www.ufo.com.br/index.php?arquivo=notComp.php&id=443

The interview with the astronaut will be published in the
edition # 102, August.


A. J. Gevaerd

Editor
Brazilian UFO Magazine








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                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 12:02:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:27:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:13:43 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:31:18 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:59:06 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate


Hi, Brad,

>I think we've isolated the source of the problem alright, it's
>that you rankle at the "sweeping" nature of my mild technical
>comments on UFO methodology and you call them "self-righteous"
>(and previously you accused me of calling people "fools and
>idiots" when I made very mild criticisms of technical
>methodology and never used any words even suggesting personal
>slurs like "fools and idiots") If they were "self-righteous"
>that would mean that I am "righteously" pursuing that which I
>claim others to be failing to do. Well I'm not doing the ETH
>modeling either, so your "self-righteous" slur at me is invalid
>and you really need to stop this kind of ad hominem just because
>I make "sweeping" criticisms that are dead on-target.

If my very mild criticisms amount to "slurs", ad hominems, and
the like in your reading, no wonder productive exchange on this
issue is proving an exercise in futility. I see nothing in what
you have written here that would cause me to revise anything
I've said. Those who are interested in my views and missed them
the first time - or are confused by your representation of them
- are encouraged to look them up on the archives.

You, Brad, are entitled to your views, and I to mine, though you
seem to misunderstand mine, which are certainly modest enough. I
tried to elucidate ufologists' complex relationship with the ETH
over the time and to explain why one strategy, the one I prefer,
may be more productive than the one you prefer. If you had
actually given a careful reading of my remarks - which it is
obvious you have not - you would have seen that I was not even
arguing necessarily that you're wrong, only that there is
another way to look at the issue. Apparently, I gather, in your
mind there is only one: yours. Thus, no meaningful discussion or
debate is going to happen.

I find that deeply disappointing. Meantime, I give up.


Jerry Clark








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                 Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 12:37:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:31:13 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - King


>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:10:18 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:08:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30

<snip>

>I rather doubt that line of reasoning, which implies that a huge
>amount of debris should be shed from Jupiter that would end up
>on neighboring planets!

>It would be good to hear from a planetary astronomer about this.


Jim,

"Debris" from Jupiter... a gas giant... would be hard-pressed to
find it's way here, I think. And if it _did_, we'd be hard-
pressed to identify it as such.


Kyle







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   Aug > Aug 1

                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 17:56:11 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:33:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 12:22:36 +1000
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:07:52 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

<snip>

>>That is simply not so. Every so often some ill-informed or
>>misguided person makes ridiculous cliaims like that, which are
>>not justified by any facts or statistics. At one point Kevin
>>Randle (though he is a serious and respectable researcher)
>>argued - quite falsely in my judgment - that a high percentage of
>>abductees were homosexuals.

>>In my experience and that of every serious colleague, the
>>"aliens" (if that is what they are) have proven to be equal
>>opportunity abductors. No social, educational, racial,
>>intellectual, or other biases.

>How do any of us know what is "simply not so"?

>Have any of us spoken to every abductee on the planet? Asked the
>right questions? Seen it all clearly?

>I don't think so.


Sheryl,

As always in science, it is up to a claimant to provide evidence
that something is so, not for doubters to prove that it is not
so. I have read your other post giving your informal survey
results which are interesting, but as you say it was not
controlled and it could be interpreted in various ways. As one
important example, were they "artistic" before their abduction
experiences, or did they become "artistic" afterwards? How
really "artistic" are they? Occasional and generalized interest?
Amateur efforts? Professional careers? What percentage of their
time do they devote to "artistic" endeavors.

Without a large, statistically valid sample analyzed by
competent statiticians or mathematicians, both your and my
comments are merely subjective impressions. However, through my
connections with Budd Hopkins and other investigators and
participation in large conferences attended by many dozens of
professionals, I have strong reason to doubt the validity of the
"artistic" claim. If you can point us to any large-scale
statistical study of the issue, I would be very interested.
Until someone presents evidence to the contrary, I will remain
persuaded that it is "simply not so."


- Dick








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                          Re: Apollo 16 Film - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 13:06:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:34:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Apollo 16 Film - King


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 10:39:58 -0300
>Subject: Re: Apollo 16 Film

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:49:34 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Apollo 16 Film

>>A very good article on this with photos, at:

>>http://www.nasa.gov/vision/space/travelinginspace/no_ufo.html

>No doubt in my mind - it was the light boom.


Don,

Ditto... NASA may very well be keeping secrets but I don't think
this is one of them.









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   Aug > Aug 1

              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 13:20:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:36:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Groff


>From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:56:23 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>From: Alfred Webre <EcoRadio.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 02:04:42 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>Here is Dr. Michael Salla's email to me: "As far as the UFO
>>updates message from Errol is concerned, I'm glad it resolved
>>itself well, and was only an innocent case of mistaken
>>identity. I'm sure it will happen from time to time so we'll
>>just have to educate the public about our respective
>>websites."

>"Educate" the public, indeed.

>>My website is:
>>Exopolitics.com

>Interesting. The two exopolitics guys cross paths on the UpDates
>List. What do you think, Brad? ;-)

>Please, bear with me through the following. I tie it together at
>the end. Basically, the following is being thrown out for
>discussion.

>I had a look at Mr. Webre's webpage. Very curious. It seems that
>the Earth is under "quarantine." Consider the following brief
>description of this "quarantine" from that page:

>"Earth is isolated because it is under intentional quarantine by
>a structured, rational Universe society. There are signs around
>us of a Universe initiative to reintegrate Earth into
>interplanetary society. It is possible that Earth may be
>permitted to rejoin Universe society, under certain conditions,
>or at a future time certain."

If there is an initiative to "reintegrate" us in to an
interplanetary society, wouldn't keeping the populaces of the
world in the dark about their existence be counter-productive to
this?

Are they waiting to see if we can fix ourselves?

Would they integrate all of humanity or just a select few and
leave they rest (of us) in the dust?

Have they already integrated some?


Terry Groff
Ringmaster
The UFO/UAP Research WebRing
http://x.webring.com/hub?ring=ufologicalresear

Field Investigator/Webmaster
Dallas-Fort Worth MUFON
http://mufondfw.com

Webmaster
UFO TOOLS
http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/








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                NASA Unveils Radical New Space Shuttle Design

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 14:22:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:45:01 -0400
Subject: NASA Unveils Radical New Space Shuttle Design


Source: The Spoof

http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s5i6038

08-01-04

NASA Unveils Radical New Space Shuttle Design
by
Flash Nitrate

Miami, FL -- Reporters at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida
were given a sneak peak yesterday at NASA'S updated version of
it's "next generation" space shuttle. Secretly developed over
the course of 57 years the new craft, sources say, boasts a
dizzying yet sometimes disturbing array of mind-boggling
technologies.

"That looks like one of those flying saucers that supposedly
crashed in Roswell " one reporter noted. Ken Rogers, NASA's
director of advanced propulsion systems replied,

"Well, actually... it is. A modified version."

A hush fell over the press conference. Finally one reporter,
Dale Tanner, WKRE Chicago broke the silence asking,

"You mean to tell us that the Roswell space alien crash actually
happened?"

Again Rogers answered, "Yes... it did. And all the rumors you've
heard over the years are true. There has been a what you call
'cover-up' for 57 years. After the alien crash in 1947 President
Truman ordered .."

Lee Ross of CNN interrupted going "President Truman? He's been
dead for over 30 years". Rogers continued,

"Yes he has. Back in 1947 he gave every branch of the military
and government strict orders NOT to reveal this alien technology
until the year 2005. We suddenly realized, Truman's dead, he
can't hurt us so today, 6 months early we're showing you our new
.. space shuttle. We named it Columbia after our fallen
comrade".

Rogers then proceeded to brief reporters, give them a high level
overview of the craft hovering in front of them ..

"The original alien saucer, indeed from the Zeta Reticular star
system 37.2 light years away had onboard literally thousands of
technological devices so advanced that our scientists at the
time could barely comprehend them. Over decades we finally
figured out over 70% of their technology and began developing
our own 'saucers'. Those are what people report seeing and
reporting as UFO's from time to time, our experimental crafts
accidentally warping into then out of view. We're learning."

Johnson Space Center in Houston (Mission Control) in a press
release yesterday did confirm ..

The new space shuttle operates using inverse dipolar tachyon
phased anti-gravity waves. It requires no fuel, can hover
silently above any surface and can go from zero to 97.4% the
speed of light in 3 seconds. It can make sharp right angle turns
while traveling at six hundred forty million miles per hour and
in some instances appear in 2 places simultaneously.

Anthony Baker of Clear Lake Tx, commander of the shuttle's first
test flight scheduled for January 1, 2005 spoke with reporters
..

"Our first mission will be a simple one... to lift off from the
White House lawn, fly to the third moon of Saturn, snap some
pictures of the rings then return to the White House lawn. We
estimate that journey to take approximately 9 minutes."

NASA says that if all goes well with their test flight they will
then, in March send the shuttle to the Alpha Centauri star
system located in the Centaurus constellation. That system being
4.2 light years away, the journey will by our earth clocks take
about 10 years traveling at 97.4% the speed of light. The
astronauts on board though, due to relativistic time dilation
will only age 11 days.

"Fun times", NASA says, "fun times ahead for the space program.
No more spending billions of dollars orbiting the earth in
primitive deadly rocket powered vessels performing experiments
on weightless pregnant lady bugs... we're heading for the
stars."


http://www.thespoof.com/about/index.cfm








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                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 14:41:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:47:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:44:42 -0300
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:54:35 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:53:18 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>>Regarding "Linguistics", STF omits to tell readers that
>>Dr Roger Wescott (who was chosen to do the analysis
>>because of his known pro-UFO beliefs) later
>>changed his mind about endorsing the Hillenkoetter briefing.
>>I have his letter to researchers on this.

>>"What the public doesn't know, I wont tell them".

>>Exactly.

>>CDA

>I am glad that CDA can get inside everybody's mind when it is
>convenient for his scenarios. Wescott wanted out because he
>didn't want to waste his time dealing with attacks from Klass et
>al. The Briefing officer was Hillenkoetter (DCI in September
>,1947) but we know from a memo from W.B. Smith to Truman dated
>January 9, 1953, (in my Final Report) that Smith, who had worked
>very closely with Ike during WW 2, and was DCI in 1952, was,
>generally speaking, in charge of national Security briefings for
>Ike between the election and Ike's inauguration . Hilly would
>have been contact with him prior to the Nov. 18, 1952 briefing.
>It doesn't seem unlikely the EBE would have been typed at the
>CIA.


Stan,

Per Mr. Wescott himself,

"On behalf of those who support the authenticity of the memo, I
wrote that I thought its fraudulence unproven....On behalf of
its critics, I could equally well have maintained that its
authenticity is unproven."

This is hardly a ringing endorsement. And your comment as to why
he chose to remove himself from the debate seems suspiciously
like getting "inside...(his)...mind".

Dr. Wescott's comment speaks for itself, and requires no
illumination or theory.

He cannot verify the authenticity of the documents, therefore
his analysis is of no use in building your "case".

Note that I do not contend that the MJ-12 documents are either
real or faked, but simply that Dr. Wescott contends exactly
that...they are either real or faked.

Stan, I confess that you are one of my heroes among UFO
researchers. This does not mean that I believe everything you
say simply because you say it.

Note that the above statement by Dr. Wescott does not appear in
any of your papers that I have found.


Respectfully,

Kyle








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                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 15:37:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:49:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:07:48 +1000
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>I have found that many of the abductees I have spoken to here
>in Australia (maybe 250- 300 by now) are artistically
>inclined, seemingly more so than the average person.

>They either play musical instruments, sculpt, paint, sing,
>write (particularly poetry) and follow many other artistic
>pursuits.

<snip>

>I have not undertaken a controlled study into this but the
>preponderance of artistic or creative tendencies is so strong
>that I would be surprised if this did not show up in such a study.

Richard Hall hasn't observed this, as we know (nor have I). In
another post, Sheryl wasn't happy with his observations.

But before any of us, including me, get too sure of what we're
saying, consider this. When we talk about abductees, there are
at least three groups of people involved. First, people who've
had the abduction experience (whatever that is). Second, people
who are willing to admit that they've had it, or - which I don't
doubt happens - believe that they've had it, even if they don't
have specific memories of such a thing. And third, people who
get involved in organized abduction activities, which includes
talking to researchers, attending support groups, and doubtless
other things.

These could be three distinct groups of people, overlapping
somewhat, but not completely. Plenty of people, for instance,
might have the abduction experience and never talk about it to
anybody. So when we talk about the demographics of "abductees,"
which group of abduction-related people do we really have
information about?

The situation is even more complicated than this, because
organized abduction activity varies a lot. Various support
groups might attract different kinds of people.

When I observed Budd Hopkins's groups, there was clearly at
least one selection effect at work. Generally speaking, he'd
draw people more or less from his own demographic - middle-class
New Yorkers with white-collar jobs. There were exceptions, like
Linda Cortile, and generally his groups were more diverse than
other groups I've been part of. But there were hardly any
working-class minority people, and certainly nobody from what's
sometimes called the underclass. This wasn't surprising. It
would be rare to find those people in any group with college-
educated middle-class types. No reflection on either group;
that's just the way New York works (and the rest of America,
too). The only place I've ever been in New York where I
encountered what I thought was a literal cross-seciton of the
population was the marriage license bureau! So it's not
surprising that Budd's support groups weren't wildly diverse,
though people who have the abduction experience may in fact be
as varied as the people lining up for marriage licenses.


Greg Sandow








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                 Re: Dr. Poher's Mexican Airforce UFO Video

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 15:41:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 16:09:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. Poher's Mexican Airforce UFO Video


>From: John Elliott <townsville3.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:47:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Dr. Poher's Mexican Airforce UFO Video Analysis


>As anticipated in a post by someone else, last month, Dr. Claude
>Poher has published an analysis of this case (in French).

>"ANALYSE SCIENTIFIQUE ET IDENTIFICATION
>DE L=92OBSERVATION FAITE PAR UN =C9QUIPAGE
>DE L=92ARM=C9E DE L=92AIR MEXICAINE"

>http://www.premiumwanadoo.com/universons/ovni_gbFr/observation_mexicaine_fr=
.pdf

>Conclusion translated using Babelfish:

>"Although this analysis was made from 5% of the enregistees data
>aboard plane, the results confirm the account of the crew, but
>not his interpretation.

Poher made use of data I supplied to him as well as publicly
available video.

He may be right in saying the radar target is uninteresting
because it is not connected to the FLIR lights and he may be
correct in identifying the lights as oil field fires.

Notice I said "may". In my opinion it is premature to state a
conclusion.

An important experiment has not yet been done to test the oil
fire hypothesis.

And the first radar target seems anomalous because:

a) its sudden appearance

b) the failure to see the object reflecting the radar despite
many minutes of searching ahead of the plane when the radar
indicated it was only about 2.3 mi ahead

c) speed "jumps" (which may be an artifact of the radar - this
is being checked on) and

d) failure to detect anything on the FLIR that was definitely
correlated with the radar target.

Had the radar target been an airplane it would have been seen
visually and its heat would have been picked up by the FLIR
system.








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   Aug > Aug 2

                          More Daytime UFOs Videoed

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 17:41:20 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:00:41 -0400
Subject: More Daytime UFOs Videoed


Hello List,

On the 8th July I videoed UFOs during daytime. I posted a link
so you could download a sample clip. The close red UFO was the
most interesting.

On the 16th July they returned and I was able to get more
footage of them. I have installed images grabbed off this video
plus descriptions. See this report at:

http://theozfactor.nucleardays.com/ufo-16july2004.htm


Barry Taylor







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              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 15:44:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:03:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - King


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 13:20:03 -0500
>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:56:23 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>>From: Alfred Webre <EcoRadio.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 02:04:42 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races

>>>Here is Dr. Michael Salla's email to me: "As far as the UFO
>>>updates message from Errol is concerned, I'm glad it resolved
>>>itself well, and was only an innocent case of mistaken
>>>identity. I'm sure it will happen from time to time so we'll
>>>just have to educate the public about our respective
>>>websites."

>>"Educate" the public, indeed.

>>>My website is:
>>>Exopolitics.com

>>Interesting. The two exopolitics guys cross paths on the UpDates
>>List. What do you think, Brad? ;-)

>>Please, bear with me through the following. I tie it together at
>>the end. Basically, the following is being thrown out for
>>discussion.

>>I had a look at Mr. Webre's webpage. Very curious. It seems that
>>the Earth is under "quarantine." Consider the following brief
>>description of this "quarantine" from that page:

>>"Earth is isolated because it is under intentional quarantine by
>>a structured, rational Universe society. There are signs around
>>us of a Universe initiative to reintegrate Earth into
>>interplanetary society. It is possible that Earth may be
>>permitted to rejoin Universe society, under certain conditions,
>>or at a future time certain."

>If there is an initiative to "reintegrate" us in to an
>interplanetary society, wouldn't keeping the populaces of the
>world in the dark about their existence be counter-productive to
>this?

>Are they waiting to see if we can fix ourselves?

>Would they integrate all of humanity or just a select few and
>leave they rest (of us) in the dust?

>Have they already integrated some?


Terry,

We should heed the thoughts of Groucho Marx, who once intoned,
(my paraphrasing) "I wouldn't join any club who'd have me as a
member."

Perhaps "re-integration" is being misinterpreted. What if Earth
was once a great food source for aliens of this "structured,
rational...society", but was "quarantined" when our nuclear
tests "tainted" the food supply.

What if the aliens, seeing that we have put down the nukes for
awhile, have determined that we are now suitable for consumption
once again.

"Re-integration" might mean that we're simply back on the
menu... :)

In that case, count me out on the reintegration thing.


Kyle







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                     Re: riedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 16:47:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:17:40 -0400
Subject: Re: riedman/Shostak Debate - Sparks


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 12:02:30 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:13:43 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>Hi, Brad,

>>I think we've isolated the source of the problem alright, it's
>>that you rankle at the "sweeping" nature of my mild technical
>>comments on UFO methodology and you call them "self-righteous"
>>(and previously you accused me of calling people "fools and
>>idiots" when I made very mild criticisms of technical
>>methodology and never used any words even suggesting personal
>>slurs like "fools and idiots") If they were "self-righteous"
>>that would mean that I am "righteously" pursuing that which I
>>claim others to be failing to do. Well I'm not doing the ETH
>>modeling either, so your "self-righteous" slur at me is invalid
>>and you really need to stop this kind of ad hominem just because
>>I make "sweeping" criticisms that are dead on-target.

>If my very mild criticisms amount to "slurs", ad hominems, and
>the like in your reading, no wonder productive exchange on this
>issue is proving an exercise in futility. I see nothing in what
>you have written here that would cause me to revise anything
>I've said. Those who are interested in my views and missed them
>the first time - or are confused by your representation of them
>- are encouraged to look them up on the archives.

>You, Brad, are entitled to your views, and I to mine, though you
>seem to misunderstand mine, which are certainly modest enough. I
>tried to elucidate ufologists' complex relationship with the ETH
>over the time and to explain why one strategy, the one I prefer,
>may be more productive than the one you prefer. If you had
>actually given a careful reading of my remarks - which it is
>obvious you have not - you would have seen that I was not even
>arguing necessarily that you're wrong, only that there is
>another way to look at the issue. Apparently, I gather, in your
>mind there is only one: yours. Thus, no meaningful discussion or
>debate is going to happen.

Hi Jerry,

You'll recall I tried to find out what on earth possessed you to
accuse me of "CSICOP-style polemics" and of calling UFO
researchers "fools and idiots" in my very mildly worded
criticism of the UFO community's failure to build constructive
models of ETH. To most readers this is probably a very arcane
and abstract methodological issue hardly warranting all the
heated rhetoric that was introduced into this exchange with this
"fools and idiots" type remarks.

I even suggested to you that you use your years of expert
editorial skills to edit my postings here -- alternatively you
could just isolate the offending words or phrases I used that
you didn't like, so I would at least know what it was that so
ticked you off. Your response to my suggestion was to switch
gears and say it was the "sweeping" nature of my criticism
applying to _every_ UFO researcher that upset you, even though
you failed to note when you made that "sweeping" comment that I
had discussed some possible exceptions (Friedman, Vallee, Hynek)
inside the UFO community (and excluded Ashpole because he is in
the SETI community yet you keep bringing him up).

I challenged you to disprove my "sweeping" claim by pointing to
_anyone_ in the UFO community who has built testable models of
ETH that are pro-UFO or pro-ETH in contrast to the hostile
and/or biased work of the SETI community in trying to refute the
whole UFO phenomenon, debunker style. I think you are in
agreement with me that there aren't any such testable, hopefully
quantitative, pro-UFO models of ETH built within the UFO
community (maybe some seeds or beginnings though, as I noted
previously). But your agreement came via the backdoor of trying
excuse the lapse in building such a theoretical framework, thus
admitting the lapse but only within a protective layer of
excuses (e.g., fear of the anti-ETH results being used to debunk
UFO observations).

The exceptions of some ETH work within the UFO community, which
I had pointed out from the beginning, were what I called
"negative campaigning" because in Friedman's case they were
cogent remarks countering SETI criticism of the UFO phenomenon.
In the case of the negative results on ETH from Vallee and
Hynek, if UFO researchers seemed to feel they didn't get a fair
shake, a fair hearing, then I said the UFO community needed to
get out there and do its own "positive campaigning," build its
own ETH models that are scientific, testable, and fair to UFO
reality, and not just give up the whole enterprise.

Science does not progress if either theory or observation are
preferred to the exclusion of the other, or are overwhelmingly
dominated by one over the other. That is not "my way" of looking
at the issue, it is science's way. It is not being done in the
UFO field even though SETI has shown us a way to do it, albeit
with ulterior hostile motives. We should be grown up enough to
be able to discard the "bad" while preserving the "good" of that
approach, instead of dodging the matter altogether.

I hope now that I have made my views more clear and apologize
for any confusion that may have arisen from imperfectly conveyed
remarks, which ordinarily would simply be corrected as one goes
along in an extended, hopefully fruitful, dialogue.


Cordially,

Brad Sparks






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                          Re: Varginha Again - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 21:10:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:19:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Hall


>From: A. J. Gevaerd  - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:09:08 -0300
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:41:45 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

<snip>

>>All right, I can't resist any longer. Although I have not
>>followed this thread (out of sheer disinterest) except for an
>>occasional peek, I suggest they be renamed the "Varginha
>>Monologues."  The joke, for our overseas contributors who may
>>not be aware of it, derives from the stage play the "Vagina
>>Monologues."

>I have watched the stage play you mentioned, translated into
>Portuguese, in a local theatre. I just do not understand what
>the connection is of the Vagina Monologues with the Varginha
>Case... It is because the posts I published here have not been
>commented on by other readers?

>A. J.

Does no one have a sense of humor around here? It was just a
joke; a play on words: the similarity in spelling (and possibly
pronunciation) betweenVarginha and Vagina.

 - Dick








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             Re: Detecting UFOs Through 'Passive' Radar - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 14:15:59 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:21:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Detecting UFOs Through 'Passive' Radar - Hatch


>From: Peter B. Davenport - National UFO Reporting Center <director.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:19:45 -0700
>Subject: Detecting UFOs Through The Use Of 'Passive' Radar

>To the List:

>I have posted to the NUFORC website the paper I wrote for the
>MUFON Symposium in Denver earlier this month. It pertains to the
>remote detection of UFOs through the use of 'passive' radar.

>In addition, I copy below some links to URLs, which discuss the
>issue of passive radar:

<snip>


Hello Peter:

Now this is interesting!

I had considered possible 'passive radar' in the past, but I was
thinking of receivers in synchronization with existing radars,
rather than the possibility of bounced signals from ordinary
radio and TV transmitters.

That is new to me, and very intriguing. I see this would require
some massive computing power, but not entirely out of reach
given advances in hardware, and (gulp!) availability of the
pertinent software.

The software may come available somehow, but I presume some
special receiving antenna apparatus would be needed. Would that
be something like a rotating dish, or a flat fixed array, or
something else again? This sounds like big bucks for the little
guy.

I read most of the URLs provided (not the .pdf which is a mess
for me) and it appears that this is being taken seriously.

I like the stealth feature, no special radar beams, just ambient
commercial transmitters etc. Like other ufo detection devices
(magnetic anomaly sensors etc.) there remains the issue of
'false positives. Hopefully, the advanced software would reduce
those.

If more develops from this, I'm sure others would like to hear
about it.


Best wishes

- Larry






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                         Re: Close-Up Photos - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 16:53:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:28:14 -0400
Subject: Re:  Close-Up Photos - King


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:19:40 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:58:00 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:35:51 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>>Yes, I was just using my common sense and what I've learned by
>>>our photographic field work which tells me how truly anomalous
>>>UFOs present photographically. Photographed models and
>>>airbrushed images never have what it takes.

>>Mr Stanford,

>>Can you tell me if your book, Look Up, is still in publication?

>>I would like to read a copy of it, can you point me to one?


>Roy,

>Although you are clearly on a 'fishing expedition', I will
>respond in depth to your inquiry.

>Since I self-published that little 66-page book at age 19, 45
>years ago, in early 1958, it has been long out-of-print and I
>never re-published it because before very long I began to
>realize that the wide-eyed Adamskian 'contactee' interpretation
>I had placed upon the otherwise genuine and well-witnessed UFO
>encounters described in that book was fanciful and tainted by my
>teenage belief in the contact and fake UFO photos of George
>Adamski. But to compensate, within a few years I was actively
>exposing Adamski's hoaxes and fake photos publicly, along with
>the contact hoax and fake UFO movie(s) and photos fabricated by
>Daniel W. Fry, whom I never believed. That experience with
>Adamski and that whole 1950s 'contactee' crowd, is why I am so
>dubious of the 'will-to- believe'. I've been through that and
>know what damage it can do to one's objectivity.

>Whether one likes how I presented Look Up, or not (I don't.),
>tell me how many other youths have the enthusiasm and
>determination to write a book (I didn't have word-processing
>back then, either, to make the writing easier.) at age 18 (just
>out of high school) and 19, and raise the money to pay a printer
>to print it by working at a shoe store, in order to let people
>know their experiences with UFOs or anything else. Let me assure
>you that it took some very impressive UFO encounters and a
>pretty dedicated young man to undertake such an effort. If you
>or anyone else on this list would like to try to shame me for
>that kind of dedication, then the person you shame is yourself
>and not me. I never had any hope or delusion about making enough
>money to even pay myself back for the printing of the book,
>copies of which I sold for immense sum of $2! No, I was simply
>on fire inside with excitement to share personal experiences
>that I knew could not possibly involve objects of terrestrial
>origin, even though in my excitement, I was reading too much
>into some of my experiences, especially some of those that did
>not involve UFOs, per se. Boys will be boys! Youth will be
>youth!

<snip>


Ray,

Way to "head 'em off at the pass". :)

Very interesting that you owe much of your interest in UFOs to
Adamski, and yet were able to find the error in his model
without ditching the entire UFO phenomenon as a subject of
study.

Very candid revelations, Ray. Even if they were a "pre-emptive
strike". ;)


Kyle









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                   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 19:01:25 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:31:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 14:41:56 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:44:42 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:54:35 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:53:18 -0300
>>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

><snip>

>>>Regarding "Linguistics", STF omits to tell readers that
>>>Dr Roger Wescott (who was chosen to do the analysis
>>>because of his known pro-UFO beliefs) later
>>>changed his mind about endorsing the Hillenkoetter briefing.
>>>I have his letter to researchers on this.

>>>"What the public doesn't know, I wont tell them".

>>>Exactly.

>>>CDA

>>I am glad that CDA can get inside everybody's mind when it is
>>convenient for his scenarios. Wescott wanted out because he
>>didn't want to waste his time dealing with attacks from Klass et
>>al. The Briefing officer was Hillenkoetter (DCI in September
>>,1947) but we know from a memo from W.B. Smith to Truman dated
>>January 9, 1953, (in my Final Report) that Smith, who had worked
>>very closely with Ike during WW 2, and was DCI in 1952, was,
>>generally speaking, in charge of national Security briefings for
>>Ike between the election and Ike's inauguration . Hilly would
>>have been contact with him prior to the Nov. 18, 1952 briefing.
>>It doesn't seem unlikely the EBE would have been typed at the
>>CIA.

>Stan,

>Per Mr. Wescott himself,

>"On behalf of those who support the authenticity of the memo, I
>wrote that I thought its fraudulence unproven....On behalf of
>its critics, I could equally well have maintained that its
>authenticity is unproven."

>This is hardly a ringing endorsement. And your comment as to why
>he chose to remove himself from the debate seems suspiciously
>like getting "inside...(his)...mind".

>Dr. Wescott's comment speaks for itself, and requires no
>illumination or theory.

>He cannot verify the authenticity of the documents, therefore

>Note that I do not contend that the MJ-12 documents are either
>real or faked, but simply that Dr. Wescott contends exactly
>that...they are either real or faked.

>Stan, I confess that you are one of my heroes among UFO
>researchers. This does not mean that I believe everything you

>Note that the above statement by Dr. Wescott does not appear in
>any of your papers that I have found.

>Respectfully,

>Kyle

Kyle, I don't think I even have a copy of that letter from
Wescott. However, I did publish his letter of April 7, 1986, and
detailed and very impressive background information. I had
supplied attorney Bob Bletchman with 27 communications from
Hillenkoetter which I had obtained from the Truman Library. RW
made this statement:

"In my opinion there is no compelling reason to regard any of
these communications as fraudulent or to believe that any of
them were written by anyone other than Hillenkoetter himself.
This statement holds for the controvesial presidential briefing
memorandum of November 18,1952, as well as for the letters both
official and personal."

On a preponderance of evidence criteria, noting that he and not
the critics, looked at all the items not just the briefing, and
noting his outstanding linguistics background, it appears that
the briefing has not been shown to be fraudulent. I am not
saying beyond any reasonable doubt. I consider this a civil
matter not a criminal matter. Obviously there was always the
possibility that a forger studied Hillenkoetter's writings in
great detail and was able to simulate his style, etc. Any
evidence for that? We obviously don't have the equivalent of DNA
data here.

I am reminded of some people claiming that well anyone could
have gone to the Harvard Archives and found out about Menzel's
connections with the NSA, CIA, etc. Certainly true, though it
would have required written permission from three different
people. But is there any evidence that anybody did?

Others have said that anybody could have found out from the
Truman Library that WB Smith's only meeting with Truman over a
several month period was the 01 August , 1950, date noted in the
EBD. But did they? I asked the TL if anybody else had asked  for
dates of their meetings. The answer was NO. In other words could
have, might have, etc, are not the same as did.

Remember that Wescott did _not_ just look at the briefing
document and provide a quick opinion.


Stan Friedman







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               Davenport & Passive Radar SDI Interview OnLine

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:51:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:51:19 -0400
Subject: Davenport & Passive Radar SDI Interview OnLine





Peter Davenport discussed his Passive Radar UFO detector project
on 'Strange Days... Indeed' last Saturday night. The interview
is available for listening, via Real Audio, at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/program/sdi2004.html

Click the Play button in the program 303 listing.

Its slightly over 4Mb and will either download or play - your
choice.

It is _must_ listening.....


Errol Bruce-Knapp
Host/Producer
Strange Days... Indeed
NewsTalk 1010 CFRB - Toronto
CJAD 800 - Montreal






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               Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - Deardorff

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 19:37:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:55:38 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - Deardorff


>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:02:26 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:46:15 -0400
>>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30

<snip>

>>All Martian meteorites traveled here via very long elliptical
>>routes (much longer that the 52 million miles to which you
>>refer) with no protection from cosmic rays and solar wind, as
>>evidenced by their cosmic ray exposure ages. The Cosmic Ray
>>Exposure (CRE) age of a Martian meteorite is the length of time
>>from ejection off Mars until its fall onto the Earth's surface.

>There may be a large uncertainty in our understanding of where
>some of these meteorites, discovered mostly on Antarctica, came
>from. As I understand it, there are 5 or 6 times as many found
>from Mars as from the Moon. Why isn't the ratio at least that
>much the other way around, considering the Moon's lesser gravit

I keep up with both Martian and Lunar meteorite counts because I
collect both types. Your information that there are 5 or 6 times
more Martian meteorites known than lunar ones is very
inaccurate.If fact, currently the number is almost equal, with
33 Lunar meteorites known and 32 Martian meteorites. That
changes the picture considerably.

FYI, Lunar meteorites tend to be smaller than Martian
meteorites, but there are many different factors that may
account for that, including a generally greater friability or
brittleness of lunaites, perhaps due to their formation on a
body of much lower gravitation than Mars.

For details and excellent photos of many of them, go to my
friend Norbert Klassen's two excellent webpages:

http://www.timewarp.de/martian/snc.htm

http://www.timewarp.de/lunar/lunar.htm


Ray Stanford







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                              Find The Copycats

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 18:35:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 18:00:22 -0400
Subject: Find The Copycats


Hello all with Web pages:

Here is a really nifty online utility to find other sites which
copy, "scrape" or plagiarize your hard work:

http://www.copyscape.com/

Just type over the URL in the box at screen center with the
address for any page you think might be victimized.

Don't be too surprised if you find the same pair of copycat
sites over and over.

The ones I'm thinking of usually give links back, but those are
'cooked' in javascript so those links don't credit the original
pages for purposes of search engine ratings. Mouse-over the
"links" and you will see what I mean in the bottom task-bar,
usually to the left. Instead of:

http://www.yoursite.com/yourpage.html

you will see:

http://www.COPYCAT.com/doc1234.html

which is _not_ a real page, just a jumper to your legitimate
page.

The apparent motive for this is to conserve "page rank",
directing it instead to other pages on the same scraping
site(s), and again for search engine ratings. Those in turn get
better Google (etc.) listings, and boost income from the
inevitable banner ads etc.

An honest link, is of the form:

<A HREF="http://www.YOURSITE.com/YOURPAGE.html"> (title) </A>

.. in the source code. Don't feel too bad. Even if the scraper
hogs the ratings, he still sends you visitors, and you get to
pay for the bandwidth (traffic).


Happy hunting,

- Larry







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              CCCRN News: Formation Report #6 - Grand Forks BC

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 20:08:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 18:56:50 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Formation Report #6 - Grand Forks BC


CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

August 1, 2004

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


FORMATION REPORT #6 - GRAND FORKS, BRITISH
COLUMBIA

Circle with two small rectangular appendages in barley, reported
July 30 but first seen about three weeks previous, in early
July. Approximately 27 metres / 88 feet across. Rough lay with
broken stalks. "Gold-coloured stains" found in two areas in
formation. Possibly a hoax coinciding with the Star Dreams crop
circle film tour through the area and across the country.
Further details pending. This is the sixth report so far for
2004.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an e-mail with either
Subscribe CCCRN News or Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the subject
line to: cccrnnews.nul

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, media and scientists

c. CCCRN, 2004






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                     Re: Varginha Again - Sanchez-Ocejo

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami.nul>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 23:13:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 18:59:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Sanchez-Ocejo


In this debate about the Varginha Case, I like to point out that
the date of the sighting, January 20, 1996, coincides with the
"chupacabras" wave; Puerto Rico, April 1995. Guatemala, October
1995. Mexico, December 1995. Miami, February 1996. Costa Rica,
April 1996.

I wonder if Brazil's incident of 'Captured Aliens' as they are
called, is nothing more than another "chupacabras" case. We have
to be very careful about calling the creature "alien" or
"extraterrestrial" without any physical evidence.

If we were supposed to be scientifically inclined, why, I
wonder... without strong data, only with some witnesses and a
"doctor" stories did we assume the E.T. hypothesis?


Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center







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                         Re: Apollo 16 Film - Ratsch

From: Donald Ratsch <sts48.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 00:25:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 09:46:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Apollo 16 Film - Ratsch


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:18:47 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Apollo 16 Film

>>From: James Oberg <joberg.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:28:20 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Apollo 16 Film - Oberg

><snip>

>>Late last month there was a high level of message traffic about
>>a JSE article concerning the Apollo-16 video with an anomalous
>>image, and there was considerable speculation - prior to anyone
>>actually seeing the article, apparently - about what was claimed
>>in it, and what was proved.

>>Through the generosity of two colleagues I obtained a copy of
>>that article and posted my comments on February 26, here:

>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/feb/m26-007.shtml

><snip>

>>I hope in coming days others will be able to examine the actual
>>article, compare it with my comments, and resume the discussion
>>at a much more productive level.

>Hi Jim!

<snip>

>Unless we can get to read the report, if any, by this group of
>NASA experts, we should not be quick to disregard all the
>different explanations that others, including yourself and
>Hiroshi Nakamura previously published and later proposed on UFO
>UpDates or to us by private e-mails. Any chance of obtaining a
>copy of this report from JSC in Houston and make it available to
>ufologists and space researchers?


Nick,

As you might know, James Oberg, Space and UFO expert
extraordinaire <ahem> in 1980 presented the Apollo 16 UFO film
(among others) in a compilation (CL862) at the Smithsonian
Institute seminar on UFOs and at an OMNI sponsored "UFO Summit"
where he debated J.Allen Hynek. He declared the disc-shaped
object in the Apollo 16 film to be "the earth."

This explanation stood unchallenged
for 18 years. About 1998 I was shown a Japanese UFO book by
a Japanese member of ORTK. I can't read Japanese but I was
impressed with one of the pictures from the book, the saucer like
object from the Apollo 16 mission.

I wanted to know more about that picture and began a little
investigation. I initially thought the image was the result of a
picture taken with a still camera but found out from a friend
that in fact it was the result of a frame from a 35mm camera
aboard the Apollo.

The friend was Sam Sherman of "Independent International
Pictures" who was the producer of of the audio documentary, "The
Edwards Air Force Base Encounter." He acquired the Apollo 16
film along with others in the CL-862 via an Air Force FOIA
request. He dubbed me a VHS copy and copies of the CL862 papers
where I was then able to purchase from NASA film 9361. After
running the film and freeze framing it was obvious that the
object was not the earth.

Upon request I dubbed a copy (freeze framing and all) to Tom
King who put it on his web site from which source everybody else
added it to their web sites.On a newsgroup, "sci.space.shuttle"
I challenged Oberg that the earth does not have the shape of a
flying saucer and besides the earth had to be behind the
cameraman and not forward. About two days later he responded on
the newsgroup that upon further investigation he decided I was
right. But now he threw out a new theory, that the strange image
was a reflection of the camera lens from the viewing window. We
argued about that back and forth for about a couple of weeks.

Then I decided this year to put NASA on the record. What was
their explanation?

So I wrote my Congressman, Ruppersberger of the 2nd Dist (Md)

http://home.comcast.net/~sts48/ruppersberger.html

and six months later to the day I received a response:

http://www.msnusers.com/DonaldRatschNewFiles/shoebox.msnw?action
=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=3 ( This URL may not work because of the 65
letter limitation) As everyone knows by now, NASA's explanation
for the object is the boom and floodlight. If that is truly what
it is then Jim Oberg has been wrong twice. First he said the
explanation was "earth" then "camera lens reflection." So much
for his expertise on space anomalies.

I have a few questions though concerning the boom/floodlight
explanation. First if one examines the boom floodlight:

http://www.msnusers.com/DonaldRatschNewFiles/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&Photo
ID=4

they will notice that the floodlight lens appears relatively
flat as was the case with all boom/ floodlight photos NASA sent
me.

Why then did the object in question have a dome?

http://www.chucara.com/dossiers/astro07/19980103.htm

It should have been flat like the floodlight lens. But even if
the floodlight lens was radically convexed, a significant amount
of light would have passed through the glass lens preventing
such a dramatic shadow on the other side of the dome. In
addition NASA sent me (and is posted on the web) about five
other boom/floodlight photos from the various Apollo missions
and in all of them the boom is not in shadow and can be seen
clearly. However the boom (if thats what it is) is missing in
the Apollo 16 film.

There is, granted, a linear feature to the left of the object.
It can be remembered that some people report sparks and other
strange things shooting out from UFOs. It cannot be assumed that
that same UFOs shooting sparks would not be visable in space
simply because we do not know what those sparks and other matter
emitted are? Therefore the linear feature could be an unknown
emission.

Thirdly when freeze framing the action before the panning, one
observes the diameter of the dome.

After the camera pans to the right and then back to the left
again and freeze frames again. What can be seen of the disc, the
diameter is smaller.

This indicates the object moved away into the distance. Or it
could mean the boom/floodlight moved away from Apollo. But there
is no proof the boom was being operated as they began their
journey back to earth.

I suggest there are enough questions that a civilian scientific
panel (including Dr. Jack Kasher) should look at this film and
analyze it.


Donald Ratsch







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                        Re: ETH Modeling - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 23:15:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 09:48:17 -0400
Subject: Re: ETH Modeling - Deardorff


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:13:43 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>I stand by my "sweeping" criticisms and challenge you [Jerry] once
>again for about the 4th or 5th time to quote me the UFO researcher
>who has done actual numerical modeling of ETH in a testable way so
>that we are not vulnerable to the biases of SETI doing it "for
>us" and coming up with predictable anti-UFO results. I have said
>I know of no such quantitative testable ETH modeling by the UFO
>community and that "interesting writing on ETH" is palpably not
>the same thing.

>I have also said repeatedly that I would be delighted to find
>some overlooked body of literature on ETH model building. ...

A possible example of such modeling is in the 1987 paper by
Martin J. Fogg, in _Icarus_ 69, 370-384 (1987). The title is:
"Temporal aspects of the interaction among the first Galactic
civilizations: The 'Interdict Hypothesis'." It contains the
results of his numerical model of ET expansion within the Galaxy
using a range of basic assumptions.. His abstract reads:

"Simulations of the origin, expansion, and interaction of the
first galactic  civilization to arise suggest a chronology of
events which have possible implications for the resolution of
Fermi's paradox. These are considered and an "Interdict
Hypothesis" is proposed to explain the absence of any obvious
sign of extraterrestrial presence in the Solar System."

His model gives the usual colonization of the Galaxy by ETs,
which he finds occurs even before the Solar System and Earth are
born. He adds various assumptions as to why we're not colonized,
and settles for a generalization of Ball's "zoo hypothesis"
having been implemented in the past few billion years or so. He
seems to make use of Newman & Sagan's suggestion of a "Codex
Galactica" that ETs are supposed to abide by. No mention of the
UFO phenomenon (since he wanted his paper to be published?).


Jim Deardorff








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             Re: Question About Artists AndAbductees/Contactees

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 02:49:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 09:51:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists AndAbductees/Contactees


>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 15:37:10 -0400
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:07:48 +1000
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>I have found that many of the abductees I have spoken to here
>>in Australia (maybe 250- 300 by now) are artistically
>>inclined, seemingly more so than the average person.

>>They either play musical instruments, sculpt, paint, sing,
>>write (particularly poetry) and follow many other artistic
>>pursuits.

<snip>

>When I observed Budd Hopkins's groups, there was clearly at
>least one selection effect at work. Generally speaking, he'd
>draw people more or less from his own demographic - middle-class
>New Yorkers with white-collar jobs. There were exceptions, like
>Linda Cortile, and generally his groups were more diverse than
>other groups I've been part of. But there were hardly any
>working-class minority people, and certainly nobody from what's
>sometimes called the underclass. This wasn't surprising. It
>would be rare to find those people in any group with college-
>educated middle-class types. No reflection on either group;
>that's just the way New York works (and the rest of America,
>too). The only place I've ever been in New York where I
>encountered what I thought was a literal cross-seciton of the
>population was the marriage license bureau! So it's not
>surprising that Budd's support groups weren't wildly diverse,
>though people who have the abduction experience may in fact be
>as varied as the people lining up for marriage licenses.


I found Sheryl's data alarming. Good point there too Sandow.

Reason for asking about artists  - including all arts from music
to literature etc. - is because _if_ this was one criteria for
abduction it could mean that because artists communicate in
their various ways.

Upon retrospect I've realized the abductees I've talked to
appear all to be artistic in some way. If not all, I'd say the
majority. One fellow, a top jazz musician, I'd like to get to
talk more of his experiences but he's reticent to do so publicly
anymore.

Further study and statistics are required.


Best,

Greg







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                       Universons' Model On UFO Study

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 01:46:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 09:54:57 -0400
Subject: Universons' Model On UFO Study


Hello all:

I am forwarding the following message from Claude Poher of
GEPAN/SEPRA, at his request.

I am also blind copying a few individuals for email address
privacy (bcc:). I have not yet looked over the new
universons.com website, but will do so shortly.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

--------

From: Claude POHER <Claude.Poher.nul>
To: (various groups and individuals)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 10:06:12 +0200
Subj: Creation of a specific web site about Universons' model
      concerning ufo's scientific study


Hello,

As you probably know, I created GEPAN in France twenty seven
years ago. This was in CNES, the French NASA.

GEPAN, now called SEPRA, is still the only official service
devoted to the study of UFO observation reports from the
population, with the cooperation of the police, the airforce,
and air trafic control.

After a quarter century of silence, caused by intense
theoretical work, and need to quiet conditions, I want now to
open my research files to all interested about real science
induced by the confrontation with UFO observations enigmas.

So I inform you of the creation of my new Web Site dedicated to
the Univesons' theory, a theoretical model proven by many
experimental facts. This model seems able to explain how
interstellar travel is possible and how a new type of space
propulsion is imaginable. The model explains also the strange
effects reported by UFO witnesses.

More important than that, the Universons' model offers new
possibilities about ENERGY for Humankind. For this reason it
cannot remain ignored, or its details diffused only by classical
scientific publications, unable to take care of the thousands of
pages needed.

The web site address is :

http://www.universons.com

(The .com can be remembered as "communication").

This web site uses two languages - English and French, and it
contains actually more than ten thousand pages of scientific
informations, both simplified and for specialized physicists.
Most of these texts are unpublished.

I would be grateful to you if you could publicize the existence
of this Web Site for the benefit of all.

I wish you a good navigation.

Dr Claude Poher
02 August 2004








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                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 19:02:34 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 09:59:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 17:56:11 +0000
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 12:22:36 +1000
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:07:52 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

><snip>

>>>That is simply not so. Every so often some ill-informed or
>>>misguided person makes ridiculous cliaims like that, which are
>>>not justified by any facts or statistics. At one point Kevin
>>>Randle (though he is a serious and respectable researcher)
>>>argued - quite falsely in my judgment - that a high percentage of
>>>abductees were homosexuals.

>>>In my experience and that of every serious colleague, the
>>>"aliens" (if that is what they are) have proven to be equal
>>>opportunity abductors. No social, educational, racial,
>>>intellectual, or other biases.

>>How do any of us know what is "simply not so"?

>>Have any of us spoken to every abductee on the planet? Asked the
>>right questions? Seen it all clearly?

>>I don't think so.

>As always in science, it is up to a claimant to provide evidence
>that something is so, not for doubters to prove that it is not
>so. I have read your other post giving your informal survey
>results which are interesting, but as you say it was not
>controlled and it could be interpreted in various ways. As one
>important example, were they "artistic" before their abduction
>experiences, or did they become "artistic" afterwards? How
>really "artistic" are they? Occasional and generalized interest?
>Amateur efforts? Professional careers? What percentage of their
>time do they devote to "artistic" endeavors.

>Without a large, statistically valid sample analyzed by
>competent statiticians or mathematicians, both your and my
>comments are merely subjective impressions. However, through my
>connections with Budd Hopkins and other investigators and
>participation in large conferences attended by many dozens of
>professionals, I have strong reason to doubt the validity of the
>"artistic" claim. If you can point us to any large-scale
>statistical study of the issue, I would be very interested.
>Until someone presents evidence to the contrary, I will remain
>persuaded that it is "simply not so."


Hi Richard

It is safe to say with some people if that's what they believe
then it must be so.??

I remember when Sheryl made some comment to me a while ago she
thought an abduction scenario could be attributed to thyroid
problems - as the symptoms were similar? I guess this is an area
she is interested in due to her own illness. I personally have
never suffered thyroid problems. I found Sheryls comparison of
thyroid problems interesting and am waiting for her to present
more facts on this issue.

Richard I am an artist but I question did the aliens make me
this way? Well, I would like to think not and prefer to claim
my ability of becoming artistic comes from my natural ability to
interpret life's gifts. Some of my friends are equally as
talented and have never been abducted.

I'm not discounting this form of evidence collecting is not
interesting or in anyway insignificant. However I, like you
Richard, would like to see researchers present facts and
statistics to back up some of their claims. If something is
"simply not so", then all one can do is do the work and prove it
to be so.

--

Regards Diane Harrison

National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn.nul
E-mail: ufologist.nul
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD  Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
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          1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>

All NEW UFO Bookshop at
http://www.contactpublishing.com








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                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:25:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 10:06:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Allan


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 14:41:56 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:44:42 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:54:35 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>Per Mr. Wescott himself,

>"On behalf of those who support the authenticity of the memo, I
>wrote that I thought its fraudulence unproven....On behalf of
>its critics, I could equally well have maintained that its
>authenticity is unproven."

>This is hardly a ringing endorsement. And your comment as to why
>he chose to remove himself from the debate seems suspiciously
>like getting "inside...(his)...mind".

>Dr. Wescott's comment speaks for itself, and requires no
>illumination or theory.

>He cannot verify the authenticity of the documents, therefore
>his analysis is of no use in building your "case".

>Note that I do not contend that the MJ-12 documents are either
>real or faked, but simply that Dr. Wescott contends exactly
>that...they are either real or faked.

>Stan, I confess that you are one of my heroes among UFO
>researchers. This does not mean that I believe everything you
>say simply because you say it.

>Note that the above statement by Dr. Wescott does not appear in
>any of your papers that I have found.


Indeed.

I should add that Dr Wescott was not a 'nuts & bolts' ETH-er. He
believed more in the 'ultra-terrestrial theory', i.e. that UFOs
were inter-dimensional or such.

He at first partially endorsed  the briefing paper (regarding
its authorship), then countered this with a disclaimer as above.
And during this time never really accepted its contents anyway.


Most strange.

CDA








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                         Re: Close-Up Photos - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 12:25:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 10:09:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Hale


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:19:40 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>Roy,

>Although you are clearly on a 'fishing expedition', I will
>respond in depth to your inquiry.


Mr Stanford,

I merely was interested in your early writings in the UFO subject,
as it seemed you have indeed made a major u-turn in your view
on the UFO enigma.

What was the Association for the Understanding of Man that was in
the 70s, and your involvement?

How many answers did you gain from Project Starlight International,
regarding UFO visitations?

During the 60s and 70s, did you publish "psychic readings" which
included discourses from a group of UFO-operating extraterrestrials
called "The Watchers" ?

Was all of the above, far past the days of Adamski, Mr Stanford?

>Of course, I'm sure my personal explanation of your recommended
>book as containing only fake photos did not convince you, but
>hopefully the information reported in Friday's posting to this
>list by widely respected V-J Ballester Olmos, Director of
>FOTOCAT, should have convinced you, unless, of course, this is a
>religious instead of a scientific issue with you.

Mr Stanford, I believe people have met Alien Beings from another
world, in structurerd craft, something Science cannot begin to
accept. I have not claimed to have spoken with Jesus Christ or
angels as such, so no ' not a religous subject for me.

One question about the book you called fake:

Were all the pictures taken with the same camera?


Roy

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious.
It is the source of all true art and science."
-- Albert Einstein








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                          Re: Varginha Again - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:59:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 10:11:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Hale


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO\ <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:24:32 -0300
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>Gildas, you mention that "the Varginha Case already stands as a
>very strong one, with many credible witnesses". I tell you for
>sure that the VC is probably the strongest case we have today.

>There are 80 first-hand witnesses who saw the capture procedures
>or took part in them - including military and firemen - in the
>removal of the bodies and treatment of an alive alien -
>including doctors and nurses, as well as employees of different
>hospitals.

Hello A.J.,

I would just like to say, that I also feel that the Varginha
case is a very strong case, with many things that happened,
which were all wittnessed.

A colleague of mine, from Sao Paulo, spent some time with the
girls who saw the creature in the village, and gathered a great
sense of honesty, about what they had seen.

You can read then full account here:

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/VarginhaDairy.html

Roy








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                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:51:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 11:11:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford


>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:53:26 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

><snip>

>>Bottom line is it's simply numbers.

><snip>

>Yes it is a numbers game. But I view the numbers aspect from a
>somewhat different angle.

<snip>

>For what it's worth, the most impressive UFO photos I have yet
>to come across are from the 1993 Australian sighting near Maslin
>Beach. I have seen printed versions of these that are far more
>impressive than even the screen photos below. Do they feature a
>"real" flying saucer? Beats the hell out of me, but they sure
>are fun to examine!

>http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/shaman/924/main_page.htm


Erik,

Please don't 'shoot the messenger', but those are among the most
obviously fake 'UFO' photos I've ever seen, showing small models
evidently suspended on transparent nylon lines, and quite close
to the camera.

Edge sharpness and the extreme darkness in the shadowed parts
clearly reveal that the objects are very close to the camera,
and that is especially paradoxical because the photos are taken
in a fairly high-humidity environment, as a result of being so
close to the water, etc.

The photographer implies that the extreme change in the cloud
pattern is due to his changing position to avoid glare from the
rising sun. B.S.! I could give several reasons why that cannot
be so, but go figure. :) I trust you're clever enough to think
that one out for yourself, Erik.

In that first photo, the photographer clearly avoids showing the
beach to prevent showing (on the nearby ground) the shadow of
the model that is quite small and if the photo showed the beach,
the shadow would reveal the tiny size of the alleged 'UFO' (Ho
ho ho!). By contract, if the UFO had any appr eciable size and
was out over the water (After all, the photographer claims it
had just risen from the water!), the object's reflection should
probably be visible on the water, and the photographer would
surely have moved the camera view angle down enough to include
that reflection, because it could have been very excellent
evidence of the object's distance and side. Don't let the
photographer get away by responding that it was all so exciting
that he just didn't notice the reflection and include it,
because he says the photos were taken from a 200-foot cliff
above water level and from that perspective he couldn't have
missed it.

Furthermore, since the photographer claims he saw the UFO rise
up out of the water, even though one might let him get by with a
claim that he just didn't have time to get a photo of the object
emerging from the water, if this were a real event, he surely
would have (from that alleged cliff's vantage-point) noticed
some effect on the water's surface of the object's having just
emerged from the water (and also its vertical life-effect
propulsion on the water) and included that in a photo!

Notice, in fact, that the water looks quite placid, with no
signs or and rise-point-radial waves from the thing allegedly
just-risen from the water.

Hey, by the way, Erik, do you see any water dripping from or
even being magnetohydrodynamically propelled from the legs or
rim that freshly emerged 'UFO'? :) Do you see any water pouring
or being force-ejected out of the square recessed areas on the
flange? :)

By the way, didn't you notice that silly 'smiling face' grinning
at you from the bottom of the object in that second photo? :) I
have noticed over my five decades of case investigation, that a
surprising number of hoaxers deliberately like to, de facto,
thumb their noses at those they fool by inserting a single
example of their nose thumbing, and this is as graphic an
example as you will ever see. :)

None of those low-level lighting effects one sees on the bottom
area of the larger model UFO has anything resembling the
luminosity characteristics of the propulsion-related plasmas
generated around bona-fide UFOs, as discussed in my recent
posting. The smaller model shows no self-light sources at all,
probably because it was too small to conveniently hold
batteries.

And, hey, by the way, Erik, note (especially easy to see) in
photo number four, that there is zero, zilch, distortion of the
clouds in the background from any lift effect or other
propulsive effect around that model, anywhere! That, in itself,
is a dead giveaway that the object is not propelled, but
suspended (or, less likely, somehow superimposed) against the
sky background.

Finally, if you will look closely at photo three, you will see
what seem to be two transparent nylons lines refracting not only
direct sunlight, but bright light scattered by that little cloud
located just to the left of top-center. Noting that the camera
is tilted appreciably upward toward the two models, one might
conjecture that those two nylon lines were actually pretty much
horizontal across the field of view (with their supporting
elements outside the photo frame), and that the models'
suspension are somehow related to those lines. There are two
ways in which that might reasonably be so, which I have come up
with so far, but I will not hand-feed this to you. Go figure.
Those bright lines are conclusively not jet condensation wakes,
for several reasons including the way the upper one refracts the
light of that little cloud, internally, as would a transparent
nylon line.

The hoaxer in this case clearly knows virtually nothing about
how bona-fide UFOs look or of their propulsion physics, and,
IMO, should be ashamed of himself for injecting a photographic
hoax into so important a matter as the UFO mystery. In some such
cases, the motive seems to be getting a sense of superiority and
power over the people that are fooled by the hoax. In others, as
Adamski confessed to me was the case with his hoaxes, the motive
was money. In others, a combination of the two motivational
factors may be at play. A third possibility is the injection of
figurative crap like this into the UFO picture by a group that
may have a vested interest in the fact that eventual exposure of
the fake photos or films will help discourage media and public
interest in the subject, thereafter. Take your choice or
choices.

Whatever the motivation, these hoax photos are some of the most
naive I have seen in years, even though quite a bit of planning,
model-making, and suspension went into taking them! Hey, Erik,
look more closely. Then, wake up and smell the B.S.! Considering
the brownish color of the sunlit part of those UFO models, at
least the hoaxer got the color right! :) LMAO!


Ray Stanford








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   Aug > Aug 3

                    Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 14:03:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 11:20:52 -0400
Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge - Sparks


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:57:08 +0000
>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:08:57 EDT
>>Subject: Re: J-Rod And The Challenge

<snip>

>Brad & List,

>I consider myself a fairly savvy proponent of scientific method
>(having studied it formally and having practiced it in the UFO
>field along with the likes of Jim McDonald, Dick Haines, Allen
>Hynek, and Bruce Maccabee for almost 50 years). My hat is off to
>you for expressing the core issue so clearly and succinctly
>here.

>And I have also worked editorially in the field of psychology,
>so know something about peoples' desire for "instant
>gratification". No instant answers, no relief from doubt and
>concern, chuck it out and seize on anything more comforting...
>no matter how dubious or based simply on a will to believe.


Thanks Dick. This is a very useful reminder to be re-posted.

Brad








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                    Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Mon,  2 Aug 2004 14:13:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 11:22:40 -0400
Subject: Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed - Shell


>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 17:41:20 +1000
>Subject: More Daytime UFOs Videoed

>http://theozfactor.nucleardays.com/ufo-16july2004.htm

Gotta get an optical zoom.That digital zoom stuff is just awful,
and "enhancing" those little smeared-out pixels really doesn't
help. Optical is the only way to go.








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   Aug > Aug 3

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 20:22:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 11:26:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Allan


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:44:42 -0300
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:54:35 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>I am glad that CDA can get inside everybody's mind when it is
>convenient for his scenarios. Wescott wanted out because he
>didn't want to waste his time dealing with attacks from Klass et
>al. The Briefing officer was Hillenkoetter (DCI in September,
>1947) but we know from a memo from W.B. Smith to Truman dated
>January 9, 1953, (in my Final Report) that Smith, who had worked
>very closely with Ike during WW 2, and was DCI in 1952, was,
>generally speaking, in charge of national Security briefings for
>Ike between the election and Ike's inauguration. Hilly would
>have been contact with him prior to the Nov. 18, 1952 briefing.
>It doesn't seem unlikely the EBE would have been typed at the
>CIA.


So Stan is now telling us that:

1. The T-F memo was written by someone in Bush's office. The
numeric part of the date being added by Bush before despatch.
This implies that Truman could not compose even a brief 10-line
memo himself. He had to get a third (or fourth) party to do it.

[I should add that Stan has never shown that Bush even saw this
memo since there is no cc list to show it was sent to anyone
other than Forrestal.]

2. The Hillenkoetter-Ike paper was likely written by someone in
the CIA, presumably because H needed advice & help in writing
it.

Also, STF says the CIA was so concerned that the T-F copy memo
had no signature, that they had to lift one from a 5-year old
document. But in so doing H omitted his own signature on the
briefing! (Presumably he either forgot or decided his signature
was less important than getting Truman's, by devious means).

3. The Cutler-Twining memo was not written by Cutler, since he
was out of the country. Again, a third person wrote it
(according to STF.)


Thus we have the position that Stan, in order to maintain that
all three papers are authentic, has to tell us that none of them
was in fact written by its indicated author!

Truly amazing.

I wonder what the CIA or Hillenkoetter would have done had the
'missing' T-F original (with T's signature) suddenly turned up
after H sent his briefing to Ike!

The CIA would then have egg on its face and be forced to find a
way out of their predicament, since they would then have in
their possession one T-F memo with one Truman signature and the
same memo with a different Truman signature (i.e. the one lifted
from another document).

Let's get real for once: no CIA agent with even half a brain
would ever try to transplant the signature of a serving





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              Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 14:35:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 11:42:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Motivations of Extraterrestrial Races - Shell


My primarly thought about ET motivations is whether or not we
can apply Abraham Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs to the situation.
These needs move from basic survival needs like food, water and
shelter, up through a series of more intellectual needs until we
get to "self-actualization", which is basically living the
fullest life you can, given your circumstances and capabilities.

Physiological
Safety
Belongingness and Love
Esteem
Self-Actualization

The problem is we can't even assume that the ET need any of the
above, including having their physiological needs met, because
we can't even be sure they exist on our physical plane of
existence. Does a ghost get thirsty? Maybe not.

Even assuming they are physical beings who have managed to take
care of their physiological and safety needs, we sure can't
assume that they are reaching out across the void of spacetime
because they feel alone in the universe and want to make contact
with us. For one, if telepathy turns out to be the real deal,
maybe they don't naturally feel alone, like us humans. Maybe
they're connected with every lifeform in the galaxy and are
already full of love.

Safety might be a big concern of theirs, assuming the universe
is an expanded version of our own planet, where life constantly
preys on other life, a big shmorgasbord. They might be taking a
pro-active approach by visiting, keeping tabs on us, and the
second they feel we're a threat, BOOM! They drop the bomb on us.
Don't know.

But without even being able to accurately assign their
activities to even one of the needs on the list, the lowest need
of all, it sure makes it difficult to assume any higher
motivations to them.








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                Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:03:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 11:45:23 -0400
Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Gehrman


>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:51:46 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:51:17 +0100
>>Subject: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>If there was one UFO photo, out of the thousands, which one
>>would it be that you would put foward as the nearest to an
>>unexplained, structured object unknown to this earth?

<snip>

>To make a long story short, what passed over my head
>shortly thereafter around several hundred feed that I cannot
>know the exact altitude of but it seemed like a few hundred feet
>overhead,... you would not have believed with your own eyes...
>nor did I for a few seconds.<g>That I can only describe to you
>what is a classic disk-hub shaped spacecraft traveling do south.

>The object that I make account about now had a very silvery
>metallic appearance all around and traveled do south. The object
>appeared to my eyesite to be at some kind of inclination like
>around a 30 degree angle relative to my perspective and my view

>The bottom of the disc at my perspective of view while in those
>early hours, was a brightly lit object, although only bright at
>the bottom of the disk. While the effect of luminous had a glow
>which cast or caused a shadow with light that depicted the top
>hub portion of the disk. An image which by the way is still
>strong and vivid in my minds eye, just to bad everyone I
>accounted told it to at school the next morning didnt buy a bit
>of it.....

John, Roy, List, EBK,

I bought the last copy of Richard Brunswick's "UFO" photo
collection after following the link Don posted. I too find it
fascinating and well worth the $23. Brunswick "also believes
some of the photographs to be fake, though he's convinced
that the majority are authentic." Many of them should be
thoroughly discussed. John's vivid encounter and description
closely matches several of Brunswick's photos.

If Ray still has his copy, I'd like him to debunk the series of
photos on pg. 238-239. I'm not clear how he distinguishes the
frauds from the legitimate so those photos should allow him
demostrate these abilities. All else being equal, I think the
responsibility rests on the persons yelling "fraud" to provide
evidence for their accusations.

How many Updates List members have a copy of "UFO"? Perhaps we
could talk off-List?


Ed









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                          Humanoid Updates - 07-04

From: Albert Rosales <Garuda79.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:17:34 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 11:59:45 -0400
Subject: Humanoid Updates - 07-04


We began the year 2004 with a bizarre encounter in Chile and
one in Mexico involving a law enforcement officer.


There are those who have eyes but will not see and those who
Have ears and will not hear.....

1.
Location. Ivanovo, Russia
Date: January 1 2004 Time: 0100A
The main witness and two friends were celebrating the advent of
a new year, but had only drank a little bit of champagne and
were out walking the streets. The men suddenly noticed a large
orange sphere that seemed to descend and approach their
position. The sphere then hovered above some nearby fir trees.
As the men stared at it, the main witness looked around and
spotted a strange "person" some meters away, which immediately
he realized that it was not normal or human. It had what
appeared to be a "snout" and was staring at the witness in a
mocking grin. It then turned sideways and the witness was
stunned to see that completely flat in appearance, like it had
been run over by an asphalt roller. At this time the witness
felt a strong invisible wave that struck him and knocked him
down against the icy ground. As he got up the sphere and the
strange humanoid had disappeared he turned to his friends, who
apparently had not seen the humanoid but saw the orange sphere.

HC addendum
Source: X-Libri UFO Russia, quoting "Chronometer" Magazine
1-13-2004.   Type: C?


2.
Location. Rome Italy
Date: January 1 2004 Time: 1600
A public servant on his way back home sighted a strange object
resembling a wedge without wings emitting different tones of
orange light. The object remained suspended overhead briefly
before moving away at high speed. Later that same day as the
witness was lying in bed he suddenly felt himself totally
immobile, although totally aware of his surroundings. He was
able to open his eyes and saw standing before him a humanoid
face, green in color with large black eyes staring at him.
During the incident he heard a strong "metallic" buzzing sound.
When he was suddenly able to move he attempted to strike the
figure in front of him but it suddenly vanished in plain sight.

HC addendum
Source: Roberto Malini, Italy Type: E


3.
Location. Near Naugatuck, Connecticut
Date: January 3 2004 Time: 2230
The witness was driving on state road 68-west, up a lonely hill
when his headlights caught sight of a strange creature running
into the woods. The stopped his car and looked at the creature,
which resembled a walking tree, two shades of brown, its head
had a beak like a bird with many protruding teeth, and a strange
crest-like protrusion on top of its head. Terrified the witness
drove home. The following week driving on the same hill the
witness saw another strange creature, thin in color and glowing
green, the head was like a lizard and on its back it carried
something resembling a backpack, which had a transparent
canister filled with the glowing green liquid, the creature
briefly walked towards the witness up an embankment but stopped
and disappeared into the woods, as it did the strange creature
appeared to turn transparent. Soon after that the witness was
driving up the same hill when his windshield went dark,
something was on the hood obstructing his sight, whatever it was
it was a creature with many white square teeth, he also saw the
creature's feet, which appeared sinewy and gray in color. The
creature then jumped from the hood and started walking alongside
the road, it had extremely long arms, and seemed to drag them on
the ground, the creature stopped and began gesticulating with
its long arms, at this point the witness noticed a similar
creature sitting on the ground staring at the witness, the eyes
of the creatures were black the size of a grapefruit, and both
had large pointy ears. The witness thought that another creature
was coming up behind him and looked back when suddenly the area
was illuminated by a strong white light, he drove on for about
50 ft and then looked back, and again saw the bizarre bird-like
creature standing on the road looking at him, it was six ft
tall, with square patches of red and yellow on it. The witness
eventually drove away without looking back.

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC  Type: E


4. Location. Viluco, Chile Date: January 5 2004 Time: 0515A 40-
year old driver Juan Berrios was on his on an errand on Santa
Filomena Street on his way to Las Vertientes terminal when at
about 70 meters in front of his car he noticed a strange figure
standing on the middle of the road. He rubbed his eyes and then
saw nothing and kept on driving, at about 5 meters away the
bizarre figure again appeared. Stunned at what he was seeing
Berrios almost lost control of his vehicle as he swerved around
the figure almost upending the vehicle. The strange creature had
what appeared to be the carcass of a bloodied dog clutched in
his jaws. The creature suddenly jumped and disappeared into the
brush. Berrios described the creature as about 1.50m in height,
with large hind legs like a kangaroo, small curved front arms
that ended in claw like protrusions, a spiky dorsal fin on its
back, and a tail resembling that of a rattler on a snake. The
facial features were also bizarre; it had a wolf-like snout,
several sharp rows of teeth, and fierce-looking red eyes. It
jumped a height of about 5 meters and disappeared from sight.

HC addendum
Source: Juan Maulen, quoting La Cuarta Newspaper
January 29 2004  Type: E


5.
Location. Wise County, Texas
Date: January 12 2004 Time: night
A young girl reported encountering a large black bird-like
creature outside a schoolyard in Wise County. No other
information.

HC addendum
Source: Ericca Cordier, Dean Stermer, Conspiracy Caf=E9 Type: E


6.
Location. Jordanow, Poland
Date: January 13 2004 Time: 0258A
48-year old, L K was lying in bed with his face turned towards
the window. Suddenly he woke up with a strange feeling that
something odd was happening in the street. He opened his eyes
and noticed a ball, which was hanging in the sky. It shone with
a white-blue silvery light - like the moon - but it was 2-3
times bigger than the moon. He immediately looked at the clock
and noticed the time. He looked around the bedroom and saw his
wife and dog sleeping calmly. The witness then felt very dizzy
and went to sleep again. That same night he had another strange
experience. While in a half-awake state in his bed he heard a
strange female voice, which repeated a passage read in an
unknown language (the witness is an interpreter and speaks five
foreign languages fluently). Feeling afraid he covered his head
with a pillow. He immediately checked all the electrical devices
in the room but they were all turned off, except for the icebox.
His wife and dog again slept calmly. The witness also heard the
strange voice the next night.

HC addendum
Source: Robert K Lesniakiewicz, Poland  Type: F?


7.
Location. Capilla del Monte, Cordoba, Argentina
Date: January 14 2004 Time: 2230
A 14-year old boy, Juan Pablo, was standing in his garden when
suddenly he spotted a short humanoid, wearing a red jumpsuit,
red cap and carrying a staff, walking along the Avenida Las
Gemelas towards a place called "Aguas de los Palos". The lighted
road allowed Juan Pablo to observe as the short figure briskly
walked away and disappeared from sight. The witness became
afraid and ran into his home.

HC addendum
Source: Proyecto CATENT, Argentina  Type: E


8.
Location. Valles de la Silla, Monterrey, Nuevo Leon, Mexico
Date: January 16 2004 Time: 0315A
21-year old police officer Leonardo Samaniego Gallegos was
patrolling a section of Alamo Street when he observed what
appeared to be the figure of a woman totally dressed in a black
cloak-like outfit descend from a nearby tree towards his patrol
car. She appeared to float towards the car at very high speed.
She had large black eyes without any pupils. Terrified he drove
away from the area but was chased by the flying apparition. He
called for assistance over his police radio. The tree the
strange figure descended from was about 6 meters high. The
strange flying creature approached the police car and impacted
onto the front windshield pushing it inward, apparently trying
to get in using what appeared to be large pointy claws at this
point Gallegos lost consciousness. In the videotaped interview
officer Gallegos describes the eyes and black gown as in the
news article but adds the description of a "helmet" or headpiece
it was wearing that curved downward to a point at the back of
the creature's head. Also, a police officer from Santa Catarina,
Jorge Contreras declared that he and two more policemen from the
Regia police saw exactly the same flying being that officer
Samaniego saw, but three days before. They saw it flying and
decided not to say anything - until they heard about Samaniego's
case. Norma Alicia Herrera who lives in Colonia La Playa
declared in a TV interview that she and her brother also saw the
flying humanoid at daytime and that it looked weird. She said
that her brother was so stunned by the sighting that he was sick
for almost a week afterwards. Another neighbor in that sector
also videotaped several days before, a strange flying humanoid
and gave the video to the TV station.

HC addendum
Source: John Velez, Abduction Information Center quoting
Newspaper sources and Santiago Yturria  Type: E


9.
Location. London, Ontario, Canada
Date: January 16 2004 Time: late night
In the middle of the night the witness, Jim, (involved in
previous encounters) suddenly found himself wide-awake. A loud
buzzing sound filled his ears. He was curled up on his bed in a
fetal position facing the closest wall. He felt a force push on
the back of his head. It did not hurt but felt extremely
uncomfortable. Again he heard the now familiar "clicking" sound
in his head. This time it panned from his right ear to the left.
He looked at his arm and it was covered in a bluish purplish
pulsating energy. He could not move his legs and arms; he could
just move his head. Somehow he managed to break free and used
all his effort to turn around. Standing before him in the center
of the bedroom was some kind of short humanoid creature, with a
large mantis/fly looking head. A beam of energy seemed to be
shooting from the alien to the witness. Thousands of thoughts
entered his head at the same time. Strangely he felt no fear and
felt as he had known the strange being all his life, but also
felt that he had been somehow manipulated into feeling this. He
then heard a slow deep voice, almost overwriting all his other
thoughts. It seemed to be communicating telepathically. It said
in an abrupt manner, "Now do you understand?" "Yes" the witness
found himself answering, but he had no idea why he said that.
"Good" It replied. The witness then turned his head back to the
wall and shut his eyes. The buzzing sound stopped and he felt
extremely tired. He then collapsed and lost consciousness. He
described the creature as humanoid, 5 ft 5 inches in height. Its
head was huge in relation to its body. Its eyes were extremely
large, shiny, and insect-like and were supported by big sockets.
His first impression was that it looked like a cross between a
praying mantis and a fly. The being appeared to have been
surrounded by a bluish purplish field of energy. In the center
of its cloak was a golden badge, there was definitely a design
or symbol on it, but the witness could not make it out. He
looked closer at the head and it had two protrusions between the
eyes and a mass of protrusions was in the area where a mouth
would normally be. The witness woke up the next day feeling very
tired.

HC addendum
Source: Martin Jasek, UFO BC Type: E

It did not take long for another bizarre entity report to
surface this one from Indiana.


10.
Location. Manchester, Dearborn County, Indiana
Date: January 24 2004 Time: 1930
A 17-year old motorist traveling almost 10 miles north of Aurora
Indiana on Saturday night claims to have encountered an unusual
figure on the road. While driving his black Chevrolet Cavalier
southbound along North Hogan Road a "figure" was spotted in the
headlights of the automobile as it was crouched down near a
puddle of water. From the driver's perspective the figure was
spotted out the windshield on the right of the car. After
passing the frail-looking figure, the driver looked into his
rear view mirror and again observed - illuminated by the
taillights of his car - what he described as a tall, abnormal
figure that moved strangely with pointed joints that "buckled
out". He estimated the figure stood around 6 feet, seven inches.
"It had protruding joints and moved very strangely." The driver
said he was able to ascertain the figure, alleged to be dark
gray or black and "pencil thin" stand up and take several steps
toward the woods along the roadside. The figure definitely
walked on two legs and was thought somehow, to be a male,
although no clothing was noted. No face or eyes could be seen,
but the witness had the impression that the figure was looking
straight at him. The figure was immediately thought to be
something out of the ordinary, not a human being. The duration
of the sighting was "hurried" and possibly within the 3 to 4
second range. The driver continued on for a small distance after
passing the figure and finally put on his brakes, coming to a
stop at an estimated 2 minute walking distance on the road from
the location of the sighting. He looked back to further observe
the entity. At that point, a second car came into view and
approached from the opposite direction, passed and then reached
the spot on the road where the figure was thought to be. The 17-
year old motorist reportedly watched closely and observed the
second car undertake what he thought to be an evasive maneuver
near the vicinity of where he thought the figure would be
situated, then the car turned around at that spot and shortly
pulled up behind him, somewhat in the grass. There was an
elderly couple in the car, both in their late 60s or early 70s
and both with gray hair. The driver, who wore glasses said,
"Boy, did you see something back there? I'll tell you right now,
that was no person." The passenger, an elderly female said, "It
was no human being. It was no man." The elderly couple were
reportedly "spooked" but offered to follow the first witness the
remainder of the trip down North Hogan Road, clearly in the
opposite direction of their intended destination route. It was
thought that the elderly couple observed this same figure on the
opposite side of the road, and possibly had observed it more
closely. Later, the 17-year old witness was said to have become
hysterical, and within an hour was describing the figure as an
"alien".

HC addendum
Source: Kenny Young, Florence Kentucky, UFO Research,
Bob Leibold, Natural Light Productions Cincinnati  Type: E


11.
Location. Salisbury East, South Australia
Date: January 27 2004 Time: 0230A
The witness (involved in other encounters) had gone into his
bedroom to get ready for bed and had the immediate feeling that
he was not alone in his bedroom. It was a warm night so he slept
on top of the bedding. At 0230A he woke up for no apparent
reason and all of the sudden a strange feeling overcame him as
if time had stopped. (He had felt the same in the previous
encounters). There was no sound anywhere and not a bit of
movement in the room. As he laid on his bed feeling very relaxed
he was grabbed by the left and right arms between the elbows and
shoulders and pulled down into his bed. It was as if something
was under his bed and its arms were coming through the bed. At
this stage he was not worried but his legs started to rise
together and he could not stop them. He attempted to break the
grip but was grasped even tighter. He began to struggle and to
yell obscenities. The witness then yelled "go to the light" "go
beneath the earth" until he was set free. He now felt calm. Then
all of the sudden he was grabbed in the same way and he felt an
electric current travel through his body, his legs began to rise
up again. He then saw lots of movement in his room and saw a
hand similar to a "frogs foot" or a gecko lizard foot,
apparently reptilian in nature. His legs went right over and he
seemed to have passed out. He woke up at 0700A feeling ill and
with terrible back pain. He felt drained and could not eat
breakfast. His eyes were red and later he found bruises on his
stomach and chest. On all the encounters the witness feels like
his bedroom has somehow been "detached" from the house and taken
somewhere else.

HC addendum
Source: Paranormal Australia, investigations  Type: E


12. Location. Leona Vicario, Yucatan, Mexico Date: January 28
2004 Time: midnight Maria Luisa Fernandez Morales a residents
living in the outskirts of the city reported that an unknown
creature killed at least 50 of her hens, which she kept in her
backyard. The witness, who sold chickens for a living heard a
loud ruckus coming from the pen and ran out only to confront a
very strange creature similar to a "tiger" but bipedal in nature
and emitting loud grunting sounds. According to the witness the
mysterious creature jumped over a wire fence and ran from the
area leaving a trail of blood behind. It only took several
minutes for the creature to kill the chickens. Also residents
from the town of Texan Palomeque have reported seeing what they
describe as a "wolf-woman", which has also killed and
decapitated hundreds of chickens in area.

HC addendum
Source: Martin Morita, Grupo Reforma, Mexico  Type: E


13.
Location. Texan Palomeque, Yucatan, Mexico
Date: January 29 2004 Time: night
Numerous locals have seen a bizarre creature dubbed the
"wolfwoman" and it is said to be responsible for the slaying of
hundreds of farm birds. Some who has seen it describe it as
about 5 ft tall, walking on two legs, hairy and with glowing red
eyes. About 100 people armed with rifles and flashlights
searched the area for the alleged humanoid. Benito Canul a 45-
year old worker living outside the city of Uman said he managed
to fire at the strange being outside his house on the way to the
cemetery, he is unsure if he hit it. "The creature was dog
shaped but with glowing red eyes" Benito said.

HC addendum
Source: Scott Corrales, Gloria Coluchi Type: E


14.
Location. Chicxulub, Yucatan, Mexico
Date: January 29 2004 Time: late night
Local residents have reported seeing a creature described as
resembling a huge creature with horse-like legs, and covered in
gray colored hair. It is said that from the waist up the
creature resembles a woman and emits a loud chirping sound like
that of a bat. Numerous mutilated dog carcasses have been found
in the area, also that of chickens and cats. 16-year old
Patricia Figueroa Ponce was watching television one night when
she heard loud "chirping" noises coming from the backyard, she
ran to the kitchen after hearing her farm animals shriek in an
agitated manner, and her dogs acted afraid and nervous. She
looked out the window and saw a bizarre creature resembling a
huge dog, but with half of its body human in appearance.
Terrified she yelled for her mother but when both ran outside
the strange creature had disappeared. Some of the local
residents claim that the creature is actually a witch from the
nearby city of Conkal who had been practicing black magic and
had somehow transformed itself.

HC addendum
Source: Alberto Arias Colli, "Diario de Yucatan-Merida"
Mexico February 1 2004  Type: E


15.
Location. Mexico City, Mexico
Date: January 31 2004 Time: 1850
On the eastern section of the city Mexican photographer Salvador
Guerrero videotaped a strange dark flying humanoid shaped that
flew at an estimated 3,000 meters altitude over the area, moving
from west to east. It flew at a speed considerable lower than an
airplane. He could clearly see that the humanoid was moving its
arms and was wearing a very dark outfit. He was in the company
of Enrique Yonka when he took the video. Compare with the
encounter of the Mexican police officer that was attacked by a
flying humanoid earlier on the month.

HC addendum
Source: Prof. Ana Luisa Cid Fernandez, "El Durmiente
de Orizaba" Type: E


16.
Location. Near Joao Pessoa, Paraiba, Brazil
Date: January 31 2004 Time: night
23-year old Alan Flavio was visiting the farm of his
girlfriend's cousin and late one evening he and the cousin were
rounding up some stray cattle in the outer areas of the farm.
Soon they had stopped to rest when Flavio noticed that the
horses were a little restless he looked around and saw movement
in the nearby brush. He caught a quick glimpse of a figure, he
described as "graphite" in color with long thin but strong legs.
It quickly scurried behind some trees and disappeared from
sight. Later that night sometime after midnight as he slept in
the farmhouse he suddenly woke up feeling a strong hand pushing
on his chest. He was paralyzed and could not move or speak. He
then noticed a dark figure, human in shape standing over him. It
seemed to emit a strong influence over the witness, which
totally controlled him. The whole time his girlfriend and cousin
slept in the next room and was not in any way disturbed. Soon
the dark human-shaped figure vanished and he was able to move
again.

HC addendum
Source: UFO Genesis, Brazil  Type: E


17.
Location. Near Romeral, Chile
Date: late January 2004 Time: 0600A
Roberto Ayar Rojas, Maribel Arnaiz Cazaux and their daughter,
Daphane were driving on an isolated road surrounded by woods
when suddenly a bizarre creature appeared on the road ahead on
them. The creature stood on two feet; it was totally covered
with hair, and had bright red eyes. The creature stood bent
forward on two large hind legs similar to a kangaroo. It had two
small "hands" which it moved very rapidly. Once the creature
spotted the witness car it seemed afraid, it suddenly jumped at
incredible speed into the woods. The husband and wife pair had
meanwhile stopped the car and after recovering from the shock it
drove quickly away from the area. They later reported that what
scared them the most was the two large protruding fangs from the
creature's upper mandible. The witnesses felt that the creature
bounded away in an "unnatural" manner. Thankfully their daughter
slept during the encounter. In the nearby town of Buin another
motorist struck a similar creature apparently without hurting it
and hairs possibly belonging to creature were found on the
scene.

HC addendum
Source: Liliana Nunez, Hector Cossio L  Type: E


18.
Location. Piaui, Northeastern Brazil
Date: February 2004 Time: night
A woman accompanied by another family member were washing
clothing at the edge of a river when they noticed movement
amongst the thick foliage across from their location. They were
then stunned to see two strange hairy humanoids about 1.50m in
height come out of the woods. The humanoids had long dangling
arms and were covered from head to two by thick black hair. Both
had red glowing eyes. Terrified both witnesses fled the area.

HC addendum
Source: UFO Genesis, Brazil  Type: E


19.
Location. Lake Downy Park near Orlando, Florida
Date: February 6 2004 Time: 2045
The witness was cat fishing in a lake just east of downtown
Orlando when he had the feeling that something was watching him
for about 5 minutes. He kept looking around but saw nothing. It
was very dark but there was some moonlight present. He heard
footsteps in the marsh on the side of the lake near the dock he
was fishing from and then he saw and heard a ripple of water
near the shore. Then he saw two stork-like legs and a head
watching him. It looked right at him, feeling very scared the
witness yelled out. The figure then stood up, like a man the
witness size or so and stared him dead in the eyes. He went to
run off the dock but when he did so, the figure walked at a slow
pace toward the end of the dock apparently in an effort to cut
him off. He dialed 911 (apparently on his cell phone) and they
told him to stay put that the police were on the way. The
creature or figure apparently then disappeared. He is convinced
that what he saw was not human and not a native animal.

HC addendum
Source: Peter Davenport UFO Center  Type: E


20.
Location. Maryland, exact location not given
Date: February 12 2004 Time: afternoon
Virginia and her husband had retired and purchased a home near
the Maryland coast, the house was 85 years old and needed some
major repairs. Most of the repairs involved an interior
facelift. A small room with an old desk and empty file cabinets
on the second floor of the two story home was slated to become a
part of a larger room next to it with the removal of a wall.
Some old suitcases, empty packing crates and other debris had
been left in there as well. With contractor work scheduled to
begin within a few days, Virginia, her husband and two friends
went to work removing everything from the small room. They moved
the desk and file cabinets out first, and then began bundling up
the old suitcases and various pieces of debris left in the
corners, of the small room. While the four worked, Virginia
began to feel a bit sick to her stomach. Her husband and friends
complained of similar feelings over the next few moments. Before
any of them had time to consider their sudden, unexplained
illness, an odd green mist filled one corner of the room. As all
present were focused on the green mist, they could see a human
form taking shape. It looked like a man dressed in what all
agreed later was a sailor's white uniform. It did not appear to
be a modern uniform, but one that might have been worn 50 or 60
years ago. None were familiar with Naval uniforms, but the group
came to this conclusion after viewing photos of US sailors from
the 40's. Within seconds, the man became solid and started to
move a bit. Virginia's husband had been an electrician for years
before he retired and noted t hat he smelled the odor of over-
heated circuitry in conjunction with the sailor's appearing.
Before anyone could say or do anything, the sailor looked at the
group and said, "2005. Watch out for 2005! They're playing with
your future!" After that, the sailor faded into the wall and the
green mist dissipated in less than ten seconds. All agreed later
that they had heard his voice and everyone heard the same thing.
They described the sailor's voice as deep and full, but sounding
a bit muffled.

HC addendum
Source: Bill Knell, May 1 2004  Type: E
Comments: The source indicates that there is a possible
connection with this incident and the alleged "Philadelphia
Experiment" episode and the Montauk Point conundrum.


21.
Location. Jordanow, Poland
Date: February 13 2004 Time: 0100A
77-year old Mrs. K J woke up late at night and went to the
lavatory and back to her bedroom, as she passed through the
kitchen she was surprised to see a strong flame-orange light,
which floated in the sky. She quickly realized that it couldn't
be the moon. The light had the shape of a hemisphere, the upper
part was rounded and its bottom was flat. The light was 2-3
times bigger than the full moon. The witness states that the
light hung above the forest over Hajdowka hill, which was 1.5 km
from her house. She watched for about 5 minutes and felt dizzy
and then she went to bed. During the night she had a disturbing
"dream" about a strange meeting with a huge shiny "thing". She
awoke feeling very frightened around 0630A.

HC addendum
Source: Robert K Lesniakiewicz, Poland Type: F?


22.
Location. Elkader, Iowa
Date: February 15 2004 Time: 2300
The witness was returning to her house after finishing a late
night farm chore when something caught her eye as she almost
reached her door. To her left she saw a "thing" running very
fast about 30 yards away from her, not comprehending what she
was seeing, she could only describe the entity as looking like a
"stick man." It seemed to turn its head over his left shoulder
and look straight at her, and then it took off in a sprint
towards her front door. Very upset the witness ran inside and
locked all the doors. It took her 2 hours to calm down; she
began to sob so hard that she started to hyperventilate. She
never told anyone, including her family about what she had seen.
She felt that the "thing" wanted her to see it, for some unknown
reason.

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC Type: E
Comments: I cannot help but notice the similarity in
descriptions of the entities with this case and the January 24
Indiana case.


23.
Location. Spokane, Washington
Date: February 16 2004 Time: 0300A
The witness was in bed when he was awoken by a sound at his
window. He tried to move but couldn't. A shadowy figure shaped
somewhat like a human but all black like a shadow loomed over
him and grabbed him. He felt that he could not breath and then
passed out. Later he awoke to the words "he has (unintelligible)
send him back". It felt like he had an IV in his arm. His next
memory was of being back in his bedroom at 0500A. He has no
other memories of the event.

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC  Type: G



24.
Location. Chaco, Saenz Pena, Argentina
Date: February 21 2004 Time: late night
26-year old Liliana Nievas was sitting in her patio with her
boyfriend when suddenly several "cascotazos" (a sort of rock or
brick abundant in the area) fell on the two apparently coming
from an area behind the patio. Liliana went alone to investigate
when she came upon a short dark "man", which began to pummel her
and attempted to drag her away. She could only describe the
entity as short, dark and shadowy, which covered her mouth and
began to drag her on the ground. Hearing her screams, several
neighbors, family members, and her boyfriend ran to find the
woman lying on the ground suffering facial injuries. She kept
screaming that "he is trying to drag me away" as the astounded
group watched as a mysterious force indeed seemed to pull her
away, however they did not see anybody. Finally with the help of
her boyfriend and others they managed to hold Liliana down and
the force seemed to release her. She was taken to a local
hospital suffering from grievous injuries. Others in the area
reported being pelted by bricks and another witness reported
seeing a shadowy entity stealing fruit from his backyard.

HC addendum
Source: Planeta UFO Groups, quoting "Norte Edicion Digital"
Sunday February 22 2004, Chaco, Argentina Type: E


25.
Location. Hampshire, England
Date: February 21 2004 Time: 2300
Emily Parkinson was lying in bed when a bright white light
suddenly was reflected in her mirror. Instantly she sat up
terrified and went to the window to see whether it was her
husband coming home. She then saw a figure of approximately 6 ft
in height standing on her lawn. It seemed to have huge eye on
its stomach (?) resembling huge black circles that seemed to
pierce the witness head with an incredibly high-pitched sound.
She was fixed to the spot with terror, as the strange creature
seemed to slowly dissolve from view.

HC addendum
Source: I Was abducted.com, UFO Reports Type: E
Comments: I wonder if any additional details on the humanoid are
available, it could have been a Mothman type creature.


26.
Location. Boca de Chila, Nayarit, Mexico
Date: February 26 2004 Time: 0130A
Several local inhabitants reported hearing a very loud booming
noise over the area and what appeared to be a metallic object
falling into the beach area. For a while they did not approach
the supposed crash site because of fear. However others reported
that the object was huge and disc-shaped, apparently metallic,
without windows or wings. Soon after the "crash" members of the
Mexican Territorial Army cordoned off the area and warned local
inhabitants not to approach the area. Others have reported
seeing similar disc-shaped craft flying at a high altitude over
the area.

HC addendum
Source: Ovnis Mexico  Forums Type: H?
Comments: It is necessary to obtain additional information on
this intriguing case; so far none is available yet.


27.
Location. Chann Kalan, Pakistan
Date: February 26 2004 Time: evening
Constable Jagdish Parishad who on Thursday was keeping vigil on
the international border had seen a flying object like a hot
balloon carrying three persons who disembarked after landing in
Pakistani territory. Since the constable had never seen a para-
glider, fan glider or even a hot air balloon during his service
tenure, it is difficult to ascertain the authenticity of the
matter. Just prior to the UFO sighting Pakistani troops backed
by helicopter gunships and artillery detained 20 people in raids
against suspected Al-Qaeda hideouts in a tribal region bordering
Afghanistan.

HC addendum
Source: UFO Roundup Vol. 9 # 9 Type: B?


28.
Location. Araraquara, Brazil
Date: early March 2004 Time: late night
On a very cold night, the witness, Marina was in her room
reading a book when she heard loud scratching noises on her
window. Startled she looked at the window and saw a bizarre
entity with a very large head and strange red eyes. The entity
stared at Marina and mumbled some words, which Marina thought it
meant for her to come and open the window because he wanted to
talk to her. In a trance-like state she opened the window and
the entity then spoke the following words, "Humans less and less
value their planet, and each day that goes by they destroy the
planet a little more, humans do not realize that they are
destroying themselves also." Moments later the entity vanished.

HC addendum
Source: www.sobrenatural.org Type: E
Comments: Important warning that we have been ignoring for
decades now. We will reap what we sow.


29.
Location. Monte Maiz, Cordoba, Argentina
Date: March 2004 Time: various
A silhouette of a man who walks on rooftops, drags heavy chains
and makes strange noises turned into a disquieting "phantom"
that has made residents of Monte Maiz restless. Opinions on the
"phantom" are diametrically opposed, since some claim having see
"a figure standing over 2 meters tall, dressed in black and with
spectacular agility" while others say its all imagination. The
local residents call it "the phantom". Those who have seen it
say that it is a young person, very tall and slim, with red eye.
It dresses in white, sometimes black and others gray. Always
wear a hat and covers its face with a mask or hood. The sounds
on the rooftops begin after 2100 hours, as do the calls to the
police. Residents claim that it walks on the roof, shuffles and
runs, drags chains, scratches at windows and bangs at doors. It
doesn't speak or yell - it has only been heard to laugh in the
dark or whistle, some claim having heard it imitate the howling
of a dog. Locals say that it runs swiftly and jumps over barbed
wire fencing and walls without touching them, according to
concerned neighbors. Some eyewitness accounts follow:

Ivana Molina had gone out to her yard and saw a man dancing,
whistling and slapping his hands. The neighbors heard similar
noises. The next day, she went out and the same man tried to
grab her. She ran into the house and phoned the police. It then
banged on her bathroom window and wrote "mueres" (you'll die)
with its finger. Oscar Gonzalez reported standing in the yard
when he saw a shadow walking along. He could see its red eyes.
He then went out with another fellow to find it and the
"phantom" jumped the neighbor's yard. It was dressed in white.
The following day it whistled at the men again. They went out to
chase it and it vanished. Veronica Bertrando reported that her
husband saw it as it crossed the patio; he said it was dressed
in gray with a hood over its head. When it went by the dog
barked, her husband then went outside and it took off running.
He searched for it but could not find it. Local police offered
the following additional details on the stranger (or
strangers?), 1.8 to 1.9 meters tall, dresses in black, a white
face (possibly a mask) wears a black hat, its movements are
generally silent and possesses extreme agility, it jumps over
fences, walls and climbs up trees with ease. It normally appears
between 2130 to 0300 hours.

HC addendum
Source: Scott Corrales, Institute Of Hispanic Ufology, Christian
Quintero, Planeta UFO.  Type: E
Comments: This case bears a strong resemblance to the
visitations or encounters reported in Vegas Coria Spain in 1983-
1984 and in Provincetown Massachusetts 1944-1945.


30.
Location. Johannesburg, South Africa
Date: March 2 2004 Time: 1900
A sort of "inner voice" told the witness to get his camera and
go outside. He waited for about 5 minutes then a bright white
light shone on his eyes and then he saw three disc-shaped craft
surrounding a large cigar-shaped object maneuvering overhead.
The discs kept circling around the cigar. He took three
photographs then he was again illuminated by a bright white
light and suddenly found himself on his bed the next morning. He
suffered from nosebleeds after the incident and had strange
lucid "dreams" of seeing a little "black man" who enters his
bedroom and tells him that they are taking him. He remembers
running and then being shot in the arm by a laser-like light. He
woke up the next morning shivering and with his arm sore.

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC  Type: D or E?


31.
Location. Near Carthage, Missouri
Date: March 7 2004 Time: afternoon
The two witnesses had gone riding ATV's (all terrain vehicles)
in a place called "The Underground" which is a public and
private storage facility near the town. The facility is miles
and miles of carved out caves and also stores thousands of
dehydrated food containers for the Navy. It is also a fallout
shelter and can hold up to 40,000 to 50,000 people. They had
gone about 8 miles deep into to the caves when they turned into
an area that was marked, "Naval Authoritative Zone." The walls
became more defined as in polished or finished, and this was
striking because this was supposed to be a newly blasted area.
Both witnesses just kept on going, increasing their speed since
the floor was paved now. They then came upon an unusual painted
pattern on the floor, which they thought it was graffiti. The
road then dipped down and took a 90-degree turn to the left.
They were going to fast and knew they were going to hit it but
they didn't. They passed through some kind of holographic
projection of the cave wall. Now they had come upon a whole new
road system, this one large and much older than the one they had
come from. They began to notice an odor, that was musty and damp
that grew stronger as they went deeper into the area. The
lighting had changed as well. It was now 60% darker than the
other area from which they had come. They turned on their
headlights and slowed down also noticing that it was getting
cooler. They made a right turn and started to come up on what
they thought was a rest area about 40 ft away. One of the
witnesses then saw something that at first he thought were a
pair of fountains until they moved. They both stopped
immediately. About 30 ft away they saw two creatures, one was
very tall (at least 7 ft, maybe more) and very powerfully built,
it was reddish in color. The other was smaller (about 6 ft tall)
and was a pale, almost albino color. This one was not as
powerfully built as the other. They resembled large reptiles.
They said nothing the witnesses did get a strong malevolent
feeling, an evil presence of some kind from the taller one. One
of the men screamed and they turned around and started back. One
of the men looked back and saw that the taller entity was
following them. He received an overwhelming feeling that if it
caught them, harm would come to them, they passed through the
wall projection again, and looked back and saw the tall entity
raise its arm and it had a weapon of some sort, it fired and hit
one of the ATV's, which apparently killed the engine causing it
to stop. The rider ran to the other ATV and jumped on it. They
drove away and looked back to see that the tall reptilian had
now stopped at the graffiti area on the cave floor. It was
obvious that the creature would not cross the strange marked
area. It seemed to have been some type of barrier for the
creature. The witnesses now slowed down and were now about 75 ft
away from the creature. The two men and the reptilian stared at
each other for about 15 seconds, and then they left. The
creature remained standing without moving. One of the witnesses
called the police on his cell phone but he was told that the
security at the facility would handle the matter. Indeed
security waited for the men and threatened to arrest them if
they did not leave.

HC addendum
Source: http://forums.about.com Type: E


32.
Location. Wolverhampton, West Midlands, England
Date: March 8 2004 Time: 2130
Steven Nicklin and a friend were walking across Northicote Farm
near an old Tudor farmhouse when both men saw a humanoid grayish
figure with a human-type head standing on a tree, which formed
part of the many trees that bordered the farm, these were tall
pine trees, and the figure stood on the top branches. They
estimated the size of the figure as being about 2.1 meters in
height. It had two legs and two arms connected to membrane-type
wings. Its clawed hands seemed connected to the wings, somehow
resembling a pterosaur. It moved its head and looked directly at
the witnesses, since the moon was full and there was a
streetlight not farm away. It turned its head from the witnesses
and then took one giant leap and glided to the next tree. The
tree bent under the creature's weight as it took the impact. It
then turned its head to look at them once more. Its gaze felt
that "it could look into their very being (soul)". Both men felt
quite scared and both fled the area quickly. The men said that
it was a creature they had never seen before nor wanted to see
again.

HC addendum
Source: UFO Roundup March 16 2004  Type: E
Comments: Another flying humanoid report, this entity somehow
resembled the gargoyle of the Middle Ages.


33.
Location. Near Carlsbad California
Date: March 9 2004 Time: 0320A
The witness was on his paper route and was driving at about 25-
30 mph when he saw a real bright light in the sky about the size
of the moon. He pulled up to the side to catch a better glimpse
of the object. About 1 minute passed when all of the sudden it
disappeared. Then after 10 seconds of dead silence a round
bright object landed right in front of the witness. It was
circular and glowed very brightly. It was probably about 25 ft
in height and about 100 ft in diameter. Stunned the witness
heard a voice as if someone was talking to him gently in his
ear. He looked around and did not see anybody. All of the sudden
the craft didn't glow anymore and on the side of the craft it
said, "future". The voice then said, "nobody else can see this
but you, we are from the future, you are a representative now of
the future for this mass (sic), please lead or there will be
dire consequences." The voice talked very slowly and clearly in
perfect English. He still couldn't see anybody but after the
voice stopped talking he shouted, "who the hell are you"! And
then everything disappeared. After about 10 minutes of
reflecting on what had occurred, the witness drove home.

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC  Type: F


34.
Location. Jordanow, Poland
Date: March 11 2004 Time: 2330
44-year old Miss Wiktoria Lesniakiewicz was in her bedroom when
she suddenly noticed her cat, which had died several days ago.
She followed the animal. The cat walked out of the bedroom
through the closed door, but feeling very tired Wiktoria went to
sleep. That same night she had a strange "dream" about her cat.
She woke up feeling the cat's hot body on her legs. At the same
time she sensed and heard strange voices and music. Three
separate voices were discussing something, speaking in a strange
language. The music resembled classical music, very similar to
the Mozart symphonies, but it was definitely not a Mozart
composition. Afraid, Wiktoria turned the lamp on. The voices and
the music then slowly faded away. She was unable to sleep the
rest of the night.

HC addendum
Source: Robert Lesniakiewicz, Poland  Type: F?


35.
Location. Sault Sainte Marie, Ontario, Canada
Date: March 12 2004 Time: 0400A
The witness, M N, was driving eastward on Wellington Street on
the southeastern end of Lake Superior and as he came to the
central part of the city (known to locals of the Lake Superior
region as Soo, Canada). He noticed a straight beam of light
hovering in the early morning sky, from the top of the hill that
was on his northern side. His vehicle came to a complete stop at
a cross street and he looked all the way down to the end of the
street (about 7 blocks away) because the street ended at the
base of the hill and has a metal stairwell leading to McDonald
Avenue. Although being 7 blocks away his eyes were able to focus
on a little dark figure that was standing very still. This
caught his curiosity as he slowly drove towards it, and then
started moving from side to side using fluid movements as if it
was hovering in mid-air. It moved as if it was confused, or
afraid and didn't know what to do. As he got closer, the
figure's appearance seemed to have metamorphosed into a
transparent, shadow like entity that very swiftly flew up the
stairs. To his astonishment, the beam of light that he had seen
in the sky a few minutes before and a couple of miles away was
now at the top of the hill, only about 100 ft away. With his
heart racing, he drove as fast as he could eastward along the
base of the hill until he came to the nearest hill street and
drove up McDonald Avenue to see what was happening. In a matter
of seconds, traveling from the bottom to the top of the hill, he
arrived at the top of the steps only to find three circle-shaped
burn markings on the pavement of the street. Approximately 10
seconds later he heard a very weird kind of gunshot sound,
looked up to the sky and saw a bright light shooting up into the
stars. As he watched the spectacle a surreal kind of peaceful
feeling came upon him and he felt as if every hair on his body
was standing on end. The feeling only lasted for what felt like
30 seconds, but when he looked at his watch it was a good 40
minutes later.

HC addendum
Source: UFO Roundup Vol. 9 # 13 Type: C


36.
Location. London, Ontario, Canada
Date: March 13 2004 Time: night
The witness (involved in previous encounters) woke up Saturday
night to see a cloaked being standing in the center of his
bedroom. It had the same shape as the short fly-head/mantis
being (but he could not be certain). He heard a "popping" sound
and the being quickly disappeared.

HC addendum
Source: Martin Jasek, UFO BC Type: E


37.
Location. London, Ontario, Canada
Date: March 14 2004 Time: late night
On Sunday night the witness (involved in previous encounters)
woke up to see two tall praying mantis type beings standing in
the middle of his bedroom. They looked as if they were engaged
in a conversation, making high-pitched (almost digital) clicking
sounds at each other. The witness was too tired to be afraid so
he just concentrated on making a mental description, cross
checking it with the ones he'd seen before. Both were extremely
thin and tall, well over seven feet high. One was slightly
taller than the other. Their necks were long, flexible and tube-
like and didn't look strong enough to support their triangular
heads. The neck and the head moved in a way that reminded the
witness of the old-stop motion monster films or like a lizard.
Both were wearing long black robes that again looked like liquid
oil. On the side of the face he could clearly see a small round
hole just below their eyes. He felt completely drained and
couldn't move. He then slipped back into unconsciousness.

HC addendum
Source: Martin Jasek, UFO BC Type: B


38.
Location. San Juan de San Ramon, Ajuela Province, Costa Rica
Date: March 18 2004 Time: late night
Late at night Gonzalo Rodriguez heard strange noises and a
ruckus coming from the henhouse on his property - a commotion
that was far from being normal. He decided to send his son to
check with a flashlight to make sure thieves weren't at work.
The youth obeyed his father and flashlight in hand approached
the large henhouse stealthily, becoming terrified upon seeing a
strange black animal, standing some 40cm, tall and resembling a
small dog with a long tail and standing on two legs. He recalls,
among what little he was able to see through the flashlight's
beam, that the animal had a very long tongue. Upon seeing the
light, the creature fled into the vegetation, skillfully leaping
over a wall. An inspection of the henhouse revealed that 20 hens
had been slain. Police authorities of the nearby town of San
Ramon were notified and officer Marcos Hernandez reported to the
scene to corroborate not only Gonzalo Rodriguez's account, but
also the testimony of frightened neighbors. The birds were whole
and the only sign of damage to them were the two small orifices
on their backs, through which it is presumed that the strange
assailant drove its fangs to remove or suck the blood. Several
days before several dead sheep had been found with the same
characteristics; twin puncture marks on their necks or back and
not a single drop of blood.

HC addendum
Source: Scott Corrales, INEXPLICATA, The Journal of Hispanic Ufology,
Gloria Coluchi Type: E


39.
Location. Hamilton, New Zealand
Date: March 23 2004 Time: 0200A
Jason McIntosh and two friends were had stopped at the end of a
road to watch a light in the sky when one of the girls pointed
out some orange lights moving in a field. To their left in a
fenced yard they saw an image of two people in white "dancing".
About 20 minutes later the car was filled with green glowing
lights moving around at high speed. They could feel massive
charges of static electricity and one of the girls got out and
wanted to see the aliens. She came back to the car saying that
she had seen strange little men. At the same time the others
felt sensations of a craft flying slowly overhead and felt
downdrafts of air. Then they saw a bright white light above the
house in the field and occasionally smaller lights shooting into
it from the sky. They could also see a group of figures in white
standing in front of a house. One of the girls and Jason walked
up the path to investigate and they stood 15 ft from them and
Jason waved at one and it waved back. Suddenly they had an
overwhelming sense of danger and went back to the car. Soon they
could see gray colored creatures, 4 ft tall leaning in the
passenger window. They then drove to the end of a driveway then
drove back to the front. They could see that from where the
strangers in white were standing what appeared to be large black
charges of electricity were being pushed up towards the white
light in the sky. Then a big black fog came in and left. The
creatures were gone but the little green lights stayed in the
car for 2 or 3 hours afterwards.

HC addendum
Source: I Was abducted.com, UFO Reports  Type: C?


40.
Location. Northern Alabama (exact location not given)
Date: April 2004 Time: 0200A
Early one Sunday morning a woman had been studying for an exam
(paralegal) when she briefly, in almost the blink of an eyes,
she was startled when she thought she saw before her a tall and
slender man-like figure with black wings. No facial features
were visible, but she sensed it was a male. The figure disturbed
her. After this encounter the witness feels that something bad
may happen in California and that this may be the last time she
gets to see her daughter (who lives in California).

HC addendum
Source: Brent Raynes, http://www.mysterious-america.net Type: E



41.
Location. Newport Tennessee
Date: April 5 2004 Time: 1100A
The witness spotted a bizarre flying creature somewhat
resembling an arrowhead flying backwards, with what looked to a
head or knob on the front. It didn't look mechanical; it was
more like some type of animal. It did not have extended wings
like a bird of any kind, but seemed to have some sort of stubby
wings, which were part of the body, like a flying squirrel or
some type of bat. They protruded out near the end & tapered back
to a point at the rear. The creature appeared to be around 3 ft
from to tail & a little over 2 ft wide at the shoulders. It was
moving very fast in a straight line at an altitude of
approximate 150 ft. The witness did not see a method of
propulsion such as wing movement. It just seemed to be gliding,
but at a high rate of speed. It maintained level flight moving
west where the witness eventually lost sight of it. Other
details were a light brown color along the sides of the wings,
like skin, with a dark body color, possibly dark brown or black.

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC  Type: E




42.
Location. Victorias City, Philippines
Date: April 7 2004 Time: 2100
A witness spotted a very bright disc-shaped object that descends
low over his location. He heard a low hum and also what
resembled the sound of several "people" all talking at the same
time in an unintelligible jargon. The object emitted blue, red,
violet and orange flashes of light. After 15 minutes the object
left the area.

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC  Type: E


43.
Location. Justo Daract, San Luis Argentina
Date: April 5-10 2004 Time: night
An 11-year old boy was walking on a darkened street on the
corner of Liniers and Los Andes when he felt someone touch him
on the back, upon turning around he saw something that terrified
him and immediately ran home screaming. Local neighbors and
police officers searched the area but failed to find anything.
According to the information available, the boy saw a strange
inhuman creature that was standing on four legs and that moved
in strange jumps at very high speed. Several other men saw the
strange creature climb the roof of the local railroad station.
There were other reports that police had corner a strange figure
dressed in black but it had literally slipped away from their
grasp and disappeared into the darkness. Others reported seeing
something totally different "a very tall man dressed in black
and cape" who wore some type of mask and gloves equipped with
sharp metallic nails. He was originally seen by several young
girls that described him as tall, dressed in black, masked and
with long silvery metallic nails, that climbed the top of the
Plaza Pringles with great agility, the girls ran from the area
in a panic. Others saw the strange character vault over the
tennis court fence while some other women saw the same or
similar figure climbing some trees at very high speed. To add to
the bizarre situation that same night residents in the Ilusion &
Libertario Ferrari section reported seeing the tall black garbed
stranger frolicking on a local football pitch, it seemed make
huge jumps with surprising agility at times seemingly floating
in mid-air. To add to the mystery that very same night other
residents in the Jardin Ferroviario section reported seeing a
diminutive figure running through the area. Others reported
seeing a simian-type creature about 1.20 meters in height moving
about in great leaps and bounds. Still, another young girl
riding her bicycle home late at night saw a tall black-garbed
figure jumping from roof to roof in the 331 Viviendas section of
the city.

HC addendum
Source: El Dragon Invisible quoting El Diario de la Republica
April 10 2004  Type: E


44.
Location. Maine, exact location not given
Date: April 8 2004 Time: 0600A
In a dream-like state the witness suddenly found himself in a
black void, totally conscious. Then 6 round bright lights
appeared and illuminated the darkness around him, he could see
blinding white light, which did not blind his eyes. He then
heard a voice that told him that, "Time has come my child, and I
am going to take you home soon." That's all it said then the
blackness and the bright light was gone and the witness could
now see the creature that had apparently spoke. He could not
clearly make out what it looked like but he could see it, he
could remember that it was not short and it had bigger eyes,
looking almost human. That's all he could remember after the
creature looked at him, he felt being sucked backwards at
amazing speed, he could see what appeared to be stars whizzing
by and huge planets and then he saw what appeared to be the
Earth, he went head first through the sky, falling, headed
towards his state and then his town and then finally towards his
house and then into his bedroom. Upon arriving at his bedroom he
heard a "boom" inside his head and he woke up, all in an
instant.

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC Type: F
Comments: Sounds like a very intriguing out of body experience.


45.
Location. Ellicott City, Maryland
Date: April 9 2004 Time: 1002A
The witness was driving his 18-wheeler traveling north on US 29
and wanted to stop at a store for something to eat. He took the
US 40 exit east then at the light he went right instead of left,
this took him into a residential area, which is considered bad
for big trucks, so he knew he had to turn around so he took the
first right down the street and went 1 =BD blocks and saw a
"person" walking a dog. The figure had a gray hooded sweatshirt
on pulled over the head and was facing away from the witness.
The truck apparently startled "her" (he guessed it was a female
due to the body shape) and she turned around very quickly and he
saw a face that he had never seen before except in alien report
drawings. The figure was about 5 foot 1 inch to 5 ft to 4 inches
in height; with an oblong-shaped face with a sunken nose, creamy
pale skin, very small mouth, and two very large all black eyes
that stared at the witness. Shocked, he did not think to stop
for a closer look until he was past her =BD a block; very curious
he made a U-turn in the intersection to go back for a better
look. When he turned around the figure with the "dog" was
already gone, which was strange because it only took less than a
minute for him to turn his rig around.

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC  Type: E
Comments: This report has to be a first, even though there has
been other recorded incidents in which, aliens or humanoids have
been seen in the company of "dogs" or other animals.


46.
Location. Santiago, Chile
Date: April 10 2004 Time: night
44-year old Eduardo Perez, a security guard at a high scale
condominium was at his guard shack when he perceived a strong
luminosity coming from outside. As he went out to investigate he
immediately lost consciousness. He is later found by another one
of the guards, about 600 meters away from his post in a state of
confusion, and incredibly with a three-day growth of beard, the
hands of his quartz watch were turning on the opposite
direction. After explaining what occurred to his superior he
shakes hands with him but this one is suddenly thrown back by a
violent discharge of static electricity from Perez's hand. Later
local police found strange ground traces at the nearby golf
course, which unfortunately were ordered, removed by the local
residents. According to Perez he has had unusual encounters from
an early age, including one time when he was missing for several
hours and remembers seeing two short humanoids.

HC addendum
Source: Dr. Mario Dussuel, Guillermo Aguilera
Ovniaventura, Chile  Type: G?
Comments: Shades of the Cabo Valdes encounter of April 1977 also
in Chile. So far there is not information on any possible
hypnotic regression yet.


47.
Location. Justo Daract, San Luis, Argentina
Date: April 21-22 2004 Time: night
Two witnesses watched in horror as tall dark garbed figure
descend from a nearby roof at very high speed. Others reported a
similar figure near the school pool in Barrio Centro. There were
other reports that seemed to describe different entities, some
dark brown and short, and others very tall and dressed in white.
Around the same time other witnesses in the suburb of Ciudad
Jardin in Villa Mercedes reported seeing a tall shadowy dark
individual that seemed to loiter on rooftops late at night.

HC addendum
Source: Planeta UFO, Quoting "El Diario de la Republica"
April 23 2004, San Luis Argentina  Type: E


48.
Location. Concepcion del Uruguay, Entre Rios, Argentina
Date: late April 2004 Time: night
Several locals have reported seeing late at night a strange
creature, described as very tall, hairy and heavy set with a
deformed face and bright red eyes lurking around an area in the
northwest section of town. Two of the witnesses received such an
impression that they had to be hospitalized. An older gentleman
riding his bicycle is reported to have almost run into the
creature causing him a great fright. Also several employees a
local frozen goods warehouse reported seeing the strange
"wolfman" type creature lurking outside the warehouse.

HC addendum
Source: Planeta UFO lists, quoting Newspaper sources  Type: E


49.
Location. Seguin, Texas
Date: May 12 2004 Time: 2300
The two witnesses, a man and a woman, were walking a dog when
they suddenly spotted a giant disc-shaped craft descending from
the sky. The woman began screaming, saying that there was a loud
ringing in her head and she thought she could hear voices trying
to talk to her. The dog became disturbed and ran off. The man
began to cry as two more discs appeared. He could see that the
objects were charcoal gray in color and ringed with "black"
lights. All three craft had what appeared to be strange writing
or symbols on their hulls. The witness thought these resembled
"ancient writings"

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC Type: F


50.
Location. Towson, Maryland
Date: May 15 2004 Time: 0030A
A woman reported seeing several objects hovering above her
townhouse and reports a conscious sighting of a "gray" entity in
her home and feelings of giddiness-almost drunk unlike anything
she has ever experienced before. She reports a minimal time
lapse of 35 minutes. She has requested a complete investigation
and describes the entity as an "old friend". Contact was made
with her telepathically and she experienced feelings of
peacefulness and claims the entity seemed to express concern for
her. Further information pending.

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC quoting MUFON member  Type: D or G?


51.
Location. Guri Dam, Southeastern Venezuela
Date: May 15 2004 Time: early morning
An unidentified flying object crashed last Saturday in the
vicinity of the Raul Leoni Hydroelectric Station, located in a
remote jungle region. The hydroelectric station is at Guri Dam,
at the north end of the man-made Lago de Guri. The dam is on the
Rio Caroni, 100 km south of the Rio Orinoco at Ciudad Bolivar.
The accident, which occurred during the early hours of last
Saturday, was witnessed by workers at the dam and took place to
the northwest of that location. Soldiers of Venezuela's Guardia
Nacional, who proceeded to cordon off the area, immediately
undertook stringent security measures further north, in Puerto
Ordaz, residents saw low-flying black helicopters cross the
overcast sky, heading south towards the dam. The presence of U.S
personnel was also observed, a common feature in all (South
American) crashes involving UFOs. It must be noted that the
seismology unit at the university in Caracas, reported movement
at the time of the crash, a detail reminiscent of the Roswell,
New Mexico incident of July 1947. Access to the crash site has
been highly complicated due to the torrential rains at the site
during this time of year. No other information so far.

HC addendum
Source: UFO Roundup May 25, quoting Proyecto Orion,
Scott Corrales, Christian Quintero Planeta UFO  Type: H


52.
Location. Martinez, California
Date: May 16 2004 Time: night
Layla Wingate, in her early twenties, was looking out of her
window, her view taking in the southern sky, also giving her a
view toward San Francisco. Over a Shell Oil Company refinery she
watched a rusty red colored creature with bat-like wings flying
in circles over the facility. She watched it for an estimated
five minutes. It glided quite a bit, occasionally flapping its
wings. At the end it flew off toward San Francisco. Layla said
it felt evil to her, and that she hadn't seen this creature
since some 13 years ago with her family in Bristol Tennessee.

HC addendum
Source: Brent Raynes, http://www.mysterious-america.net  Type: E


53.
Location. Culloden, West Virginia
Date: May 17 2004 Time: night
The witness was house cleaning when she spotted a black figure
run past the window, she looked outside and at first did not see
anything. She resumed her cleaning but again saw another figure,
not as dark run by the window. 10 minutes later she was in the
kitchen when she was blinded by a bright light for a brief
second, it came in through both the back windows. She then
closed her curtains. The next day her dogs acted strangely and
there was a power outage in the area.

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC Type: E?


54.
Location. Al-Naiisia, Syria
Date: May 22 2004 Time: afternoon
Seven laborers spotted a strange entity in an olive grove. The
creature remained seated for a while before taking running
strides to climb up a tree. The entity was described as red in
color, human in shape, and "peasant-like" in appearance (!).
According to the witnesses the sighting came to an end when the
creature rushed skyward with incredible swiftness leaving a wake
of smoky white bubbles. Authorities mandated an inspection of
the site but apparently nothing abnormal was found.

HC addendum
Source: http://www.infobae.com citing
Syrian State Newspaper "Teshreen" Type: E


55.
Location. Volcanoes National Park, Maui, Hawaii
Date: June 21 2004  Time: afternoon
The witness, Greg W, had taken a trip to the lava flow entering
the ocean and on the way down the slope from the upper-forested
area of the park; he stopped to take a picture of the coast and
land formations. He estimated it to have been about 1,500, in
elevation at the place of the photograph. A week later when he
developed the photo he saw the image of a dark figure, which he
had not seen previously. It looked like a dark "warrior"
standing guard, but no features were actually visible. One local
co-worker thought it could be a "Nigh Marcher" which is part of
the local folklore.

HC addendum
Source: Florida Paranormal Group, gtwads.nul  Type: E?


56.
Location. Newton Falls, Ohio
Date: June 23 2004 Time: 2200
The main witness was at a friend's house tending to one of her
children when the child looked out the sliding glass door and
pointed to something in the woods. Not wanting the children to
panic, the witness put them to bed as she watched three strange
"figures", almost human-like in appearance, but with body
appendages way out of proportion to the rest of the body. The
figures appeared to be made out of light and at the same time
the witness began hearing a strange humming sound. The strange
creatures also appear to change shape. In the sky there was a
bright green sort of mist that hovered above them. The figures
themselves changed from blue to green and then to a grayish
color. As the witness called her friend's husband over there was
an extremely white bright light and the front door began to
shake. Soon everything disappeared except for what appeared to
be a silvery trail that led away from the area. At the end of
the encounter the temperature became icy cold.

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC Type: C?


57.
Location. St. John, Indiana
Date: June 28 2004 Time: 2130
The witness was outside throwing snapdragons onto his driveway.
In front of his house and behind it there are wooded areas. He
looked up and saw a shadowy figure standing near the woods
across the street. At first he thought it was a shadow from a
bush but then he saw it move. It moved into the light cast by
the only streetlight on the street. He saw a creature about 3-4
ft tall, with little or no hair, possibly grayish-green in
color. It had three claws that he could see on each arm, which
were small. It was in a crouched position that made the witness
think of a kangaroo. He could see what look like spikes running
down the back of the creature. At this point it turned and
looked straight at the witness. Its face looked like a human
except for a few features. There was no nose, just two nostrils,
like slits. Its eyes shone a yellow-green color and seemed
farther apart and a bit higher up on the head than a humans'.
When the creature noticed the witness it turned toward him and
adopted a strange stance suggesting it was going to leap toward
him. At this point the witness turned and ran quickly to his
garage and began punching the key code as fast a he could. Once
it was opened he dashed up the door inside, where he paused and
looked back, but the creature was now gone.

HC addendum
Source: http://paranormal.about.com Type: E


57.
Location. Lafayette, California
Date: June 29 2004 Time: 0300A
In an apparent dream-like state the witness remembers looking
out his office window and seeing two tiny beams of light shining
down from the sky from a very distant and high source. The beams
were extremely narrow and were coming from "very high up." The
witness yelled for her family to come and look but when her
husband did the beams disappeared, but only momentarily. The
beams appeared bent, with angular shafts. As they watched in awe
they saw a tiny, blue helicopter drop lower and lower from the
sky, where the beams originated. The tiny helicopter descended
to treetop height and being circling the trees and bushes. The
"craft" finally landed nearby and wheels seemed to appear. It
resembled one of those sleds used in the winter Olympics; it
then began moving around the neighbors' bushes and driveway. The
witness thought that the "object" was actually an android or
robot. The object or android stayed in the area for a while
before disappearing.

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC  Type: E?


58.
Location. Podujeva, Kosovo
Date: June 30 2004 Time: 1330
Independent witnesses saw a bizarre "object" or creature come
out of the sky and land on the ground. The creature, or whatever
it was, was variously described as resembling a "dog" or a tiger
and appeared to be able to change shape. It ran around the area
for a while and then flew back up into the sky. One witness
claims he took a videotape of part of the incident.

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC  Type: E?


59.
Location. Parral, Chile
Date: June 30 2004 Time: night
Farmer Juan Acuna Pereira was walking home from the fields when
a strange winged dog-like creature near the Fiscal Canal
reportedly attacked him, he reported seeing two of the
creatures. Apparently the smaller one of the creatures was more
aggressive going for his throat. Juan protected himself with his
arms and suffered deep scratches and scars. He fell to the
ground and one of the creatures bit his ankle. He managed to
break free and jumped into the canal, while the strange
creatures flew over it back and forth apparently waiting for him
to come out of the water. Finally the creatures gave up and left
the area flying at very high speed. He further described the
creatures as resembling earless dogs, with glowing eyes and
triangular shaped fangs. Other locals reported finding dozens of
dead hens completely drained of blood, one other farmer reported
seeing two strange creatures that took off flying from his field
towards the nearby hills as he approached them. Another farmer
reported finding 14 of his lamb dead apparently mutilated but
not eaten.

HC addendum
Source: http://www.ovniaventura.com Type: E


60.
Location. Curico, Chile
Date: July 4 2004 Time: 0300A
According to the few details known, on Sunday morning one of the
truckers working on the premises of COPEFRUT had to park
somewhat far from the point of entry into the premises. At that
time the driver's vehicle was accosted and attacked by a strange
winged creature that placed its legs on the ground and then flew
off. The frightened driver attempted some sort of maneuver to
reach an area where he could find more people, which was almost
impossible due to his nerves. After some minutes, he managed to
tell his story, although he was unable to furnish details as to
what had attacked him. He only said having seen an animal that
flew away, but which did not have the characteristics of a bird.
Strange footprints or tracks were found at the scene.

HC addendum
Source: Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Citing CIFAE-Chile  Type: E



61.
Location. Tucson, Arizona
Date: July 4 2004 Time: 0341A
The witness had been having difficulty in going to sleep and
then decided to ride a golf-cart around the course. As he came
over a hill he saw a yellow blue red light and a strange feeling
came over him as he saw a cylinder-shaped craft land on the
ground. He then saw several figures or "things" walking around
the course and examining some wild pigs that apparently wandered
into the course. The witness remembers that as he drove up the
top of the hill it felt to him as if "time had come to stop".
His next memory was of waking up lying next to the golf-cart. He
does not have any further recollection.

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC Type: C


62.
Location. Melbourne, Australia
Date: July 9 2004 Time: 0300A
The witness was in bed when a bright light suddenly invaded his
bedroom through the curtains. Looking out the window the witness
saw a huge light floating in the air making a rather distinct
humming sound, which vibrated through the air. The witness was
getting ready to go outside his room when suddenly the light
expanded and shone on his walls and an overwhelming sense of
"gravity" enveloped him, he could barely move, he tried to get
to the door on his knees, but the gravity was just to
overwhelming and fell to the floor. He felt very sleepy and
unusually tired, he then fell asleep. After an unknown length of
time he suddenly woke up. Slowly coming to his senses he sensed
that a huge time gap had been erased, it had been dark when he
fell asleep and it was already light.

HC addendum
Source: NUFORC, http://www.nuforc.org Type: G
Comments: Possibly an unexplored abduction event.


63.
Location. Capilla del Monte, Argentina
Date: July 18 2004 Time: evening
At a farm called "Campo Maria Rosa Mystica" a nine year old girl
was swinging in her yard on a hammock when she saw coming from
the nearby restricted and enclosed field an elderly appearing
woman, dressed in pink walking towards her. The area is far from
the city and is guarded since the family keeps high priced
cattle in the field. The young girl became frightened since she
did not recognize the woman and hurried to her house. She
stopped by the front door and looked back at the woman noticing
that this one had sat on the hammock and was now swinging back &
forth very fast. Moments later she went outside with her mother
and both noticed that hammock empty but still swinging back &
forth very fast. The stranger was nowhere in sight.

HC addendum
Source: Proyecto CATENT Argentina Type: E?
Comments: Of course the location is known for its many
encounters with both humanoids and UFOs.


64.
Location. Mokena, Illinois
Date: July 30 2004 Time: 1900
Brian Gross was riding his bicycle through a small trail in the
Hickory Creek Forest Preserve. When he began to hear footsteps
and seeing movements among the trees. At first he attempted to
ignore it but it soon became very obvious that several "things"
were watching him and when he looked they either ran or ducked.
The figures stood on two legs, were short, with a hazy blue
color, seemingly getting bolder as the witness began returning
home. He saw one standing on the side of the road, he called a
friend on his cellphone and then heard a loud grunt and then
what sounded like gallops. He could still see several short
bluish figures watching him from the woods. The witness also
felt as if a horseman followed him from about 10-20 yards into
the forest. He counted 10 small bluish figures, which seemed to
disappear as the witness reached a bridge.

HC addendum
Source: Direct from witness, artmonkey04.nul Type: E







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   Aug > Aug 3

                        Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:32:04 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:02:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 21:10:13 +0000
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd  - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:09:08 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

<snip>

>Does no one have a sense of humor around here? It was just a
>joke; a play on words: the similarity in spelling (and possibly
>pronunciation) betweenVarginha and Vagina.

Hehehe.

Ok, Dick. I hadn=B4t figured that out.

In fact, even in Portuguese Varginha is spelled very similarly
to vagina.....


A. J.







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   Aug > Aug 3

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:55:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:05:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Clark


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 16:47:12 EDT
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 12:02:30 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:13:43 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate


Hi, Brad,

Since you are an old and treasured friend, I want to say only
that I respect your opinion - in fact, I greatly respect your
opinion - and to add that you have made many good points in the
current discussion. If I have not been clear enough in my effort
to acknowledge that, the failure to communicate is, I'm sure, my
own fault.

In my response I've tried not to dispute your valid points about
the role of theory-construction in science, but to highlight the
special nature of ufology and to show why it has gone in certain
directions as opposed to others, and then to argue for what I
believe to be the only strategy currently available to it. I
also tried to stress, perhaps not as clearly as I wished, to
agree that it is proper to construct serious hypotheses, but
that for reasons I won't rehash, such construction may not be
ufology's most urgent priority, given the distinctive nature of
the UFO controversy.

Anyway, I respect your views, Brad, and am sure you respect mine
in turn. If I have sounded intemperate or have unintentionally
put words into your mouth, I offer my sincerest apologies.

I hope we can now move on to other avenues of discussion.


Cordially,

Jerry Clark








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                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 08:00:53 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:26:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 17:56:11 +0000
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 12:22:36 +1000
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

<snip>

>As always in science, it is up to a claimant to provide evidence
>that something is so, not for doubters to prove that it is not
>so. I have read your other post giving your informal survey
>results which are interesting, but as you say it was not
>controlled and it could be interpreted in various ways. As one
>important example, were they "artistic" before their abduction
>experiences, or did they become "artistic" afterwards? How
>really "artistic" are they? Occasional and generalized interest?
>Amateur efforts? Professional careers? What percentage of their
>time do they devote to "artistic" endeavors.

>Without a large, statistically valid sample analyzed by
>competent statiticians or mathematicians, both your and my
>comments are merely subjective impressions. However, through my
>connections with Budd Hopkins and other investigators and
>participation in large conferences attended by many dozens of
>professionals, I have strong reason to doubt the validity of the
>"artistic" claim. If you can point us to any large-scale
>statistical study of the issue, I would be very interested.
>Until someone presents evidence to the contrary, I will remain
>persuaded that it is "simply not so."


Dick,

Fair enough points. At this stage I just want to know if others
have come across this too. I'll fugure the rest out later. (if I
get the time)

By the way, Budd Hopkins spoke at the recent National Australian
UFO Conference and these were his exact words -

"...abductees will typically be found in the helping professions
such as nurses, doctors, psychiatrists, involved with children
etc, and they are often artists, musicians and writers."

You will find this in my conference review at:

http://www.acufos.asn.au/about/conference.html


Sheryl Gottschall






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                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 23:01:14 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:28:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 17:56:11 +0000
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 12:22:36 +1000
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

<snip>

>Sheryl,

>As always in science, it is up to a claimant to provide evidence
>that something is so,

Precisely, so what is your evidence for the claim that the
abductors are "equal opportunity abductors. No social,
educational, racial, intellectual or other biases"? As was
admitted some time ago, some abduction researchers do not even
keep statistics on the race of their subjects, let alone the
other characteristics you mention.

The fact is, the evidence is just not there to make a clear
judgement one way or another, although there does seem to be
some empirical evidence that many abductees do demonstrate an
artistic temperament, and that for female abductees a higher
proportion than one might statistically expect are lesbian or of
ambiguous sexuality.

Of course, having said that, everyone will now pretrend that I
have said that all female abductees are lesbian.

>not for doubters to prove that it is not so.

Indeed, I'm doubting your evidence-free statement.

>I have read your other post giving your informal survey
>results which are interesting, but as you say it was not
>controlled and it could be interpreted in various ways. As one
>important example, were they "artistic" before their abduction
>experiences, or did they become "artistic" afterwards? How
>really "artistic" are they? Occasional and generalized interest?
>Amateur efforts? Professional careers? What percentage of their
>time do they devote to "artistic" endeavors.

>Without a large, statistically valid sample analyzed by
>competent statiticians or mathematicians, both your and my
>comments are merely subjective impressions. However, through my
>connections with Budd Hopkins and other investigators and
>participation in large conferences attended by many dozens of
>professionals, I have strong reason to doubt the validity of the
>"artistic" claim. If you can point us to any large-scale
>statistical study of the issue, I would be very interested.
>Until someone presents evidence to the contrary, I will remain
>persuaded that it is "simply not so."

- on, presumably, no evidence whatsover.

Isn't it up to investigators such as Budd Hopkins to provide the
statistics for others to work on? What proportion of Hopkins's
subjects are gay or lesbian? Has he even asked them the
question? What proportion are Black, Hispanic, WASP. Has he (or
anyone else) published statistics on the educational level of
abductees?

I only ask because I want to know.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 18:06:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:30:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 16:53:55 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:19:40 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:58:00 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>Ray,

>Way to "head 'em off at the pass". :)

>Very interesting that you owe much of your interest in UFOs to
>Adamski, and yet were able to find the error in his model
>without ditching the entire UFO phenomenon as a subject of
>study.

>Very candid revelations, Ray. Even if they were a "pre-emptive
>strike". ;)


Thanks, Kyle.

Actually, my interest in UFOs was not really due to G.A. or his
claims, (He just sidetracked me for a while.) but seems to have
maybe been 'congenital', because, remember (as I told this
list), how I bounced off that swing on my grade school
playground at age 9, in September, 1947, and freaked the wife of
the school principal by telling her that when I grew up I would
investigate "those flying saucers", learn their nature, and then
reveal it to the whole world.

Well, I confess I'm still working on fulfilling that promise,
but situations are encouraging, now.

My response to Roy's inquiry may have been a "pre-emptive", but
I surely didn't learn that tactic from "Dubya".:)


Ray Stanford








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                    Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 23:13:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:32:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Rimmer


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:44:42 -0300
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>There was no forgery. Forgers make every effort, whether in
>paintings or documents, to avoid doing anything to call
>attention to themselves.

Wonderful. This piece of Friedmanite logic should save us all a
lot of trouble. If a document, (or anything else) particularly
one which supports the Friedmanite agenda, has a flaw in it
which might, to the uninitiated eye might make it look dubious
and possibly false, it cannot be so, because, as we are reminded
"Forgers make every effort ... to avoid doing anything to call
attention to themselves". So the very existence of a fault
proves its genuiness.

On the other hand, if investigators are unable to find anything
wrong with an item, and it appears to be perfectly genuine, well
then, erm, it must be genuine as well!

This new revelation will save a great deal of work for museum
and gallery curators across the world; and Stanton, I've got a
couple of very nice Picasso drawings you might be interested in
buying at a reasonable price.

Pip pip

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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   Aug > Aug 3

                        Re: Varginha Again - Denzler

From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 19:01:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:34:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Denzler


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 21:10:13 +0000
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:09:08 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:41:45 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

<snip>

>>A. J.

>Does no one have a sense of humor around here? It was just a
>joke; a play on words: the similarity in spelling (and possibly
>pronunciation) betweenVarginha and Vagina.

For A.J. I think the problem is the cultural divide. It's an
English-language, U.S.-comprehensible pun.

I snickered!


Brenda








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                       X-PPAC Update - August 2, 2004

From: Stephen Bassett <Disclosure2003.nul>
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:08:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:38:04 -0400
Subject: X-PPAC Update - August 2, 2004


X-PPAC
Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee

"The first thing you need when the barn's on fire is not water -
it's a bucket." Old saying.

The coming election will be one of the most important in
American history. Much is at stake, and at the center of the
swirl of issues being played out is the matter of "truth in
government." This core includes: secrecy reform, abuse of power,
and of course, disclosure.

The Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee (X-
PPAC) is a bucket created in 1999 by Paradigm Research Group. It
awaits being filled by a public motivated to influence political
candidates and incumbents on these critical issues. When that
happens, X-PPAC will utilize these funds to put pressure on the
participants in the unfolding election to deal with disclosure
and other truth in government issues.

There are 90 days to the next election. X-PPAC can be a factor
in Washington, if the following goals can be obtained:

20 $5000 (limit) contributors: $ 100,000
100 $1000 contributors:        $ 100,000
1000 $100 contributors:        $ 100,000
10,000 $25 contributors:       $ 250,000
                        Total: $ 550,000

The very fact of such funding to a political action committee
with the aims of X-PPAC would send a shock wave throughout
Washington, DC before a single dollar was spent. Regular updates
will go out showing how this fund raising effort is proceeding
in each category.

Paradigm Research Group has done its best to advocate truth in
government since 1996. With your help, it can do much, much
more. Please consider contributing to X-PPAC and passing this
message on to friends and family.


_____________


Only United States citizens or Green Card holders may
contribute to a political action committee - no corporations.
The annual limit per person is $5000. Any person contributing
$200 or more per year must also provide their address,
occupation and name of employer. (This is to help insure
corporations are not forcing employees to contribute to a PAC
with or without reimbursement.) Contributions are NOT tax
deductible, but the political action committee operates with a
tax free status.


_____________

You can contribute via PayPal at the X-PPAC website:

www.x-ppac.org

However, 3% of all such contributions go to the
credit card processor. To ensure all of your funds go to X-
PPAC, contribute by mailing a check or money order to the
address below. Please let X-PPAC know if you wish to be
acknowledged by name, amount, city and state on the X-PPAC
website.

If you believe truth is the critical component to a just and
successful society and disclosure of the extraterrestrial
presence must not be further withheld from the American people,
your funding support is needed for X-PPAC to advocate these
goals.

Best Regards,
Stephen Bassett
Executive Director


___________________________________________________

X-PPAC
Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee
URL: www.x-ppac.org
E-mail: exppac.nul
Phone: 202-431-2459
4938 Hampden Lane, #161
Bethesda, Maryland 20814
___________________________________________________








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                             Re: Close-Up Photos

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 19:09:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:49:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:43:39 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:58:59 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>>>To my knowledge, there is not a single case where two or more
>>>unrelated people captured either close-up or mid-range photos of
>>>the same UFO on approximately the same time and day but from
>>different locations.

<snip>

>>In Gulf Breeze (gulp!) from Nov 1990 through July 1992 there
>>were about 170 sightings of "bubba" recorded by numerous
>>witnesses. In many of these sightings there were multiple
>>cameras and videocameras, sometimes from widely separated (miles
>>apart) locations, which allowed for triangulation. The most
>>interesting recorded phenomena were rings of light or structured
>>light images, not just dots. During the evening of Sept 16,
>>1991, I was a witness to a ring of lights that appeared in the
>>sky for about 70 seconds. I didn't call the guys in white coats
>>to come and take me away (ho ho...ha ha) because there were
>>about 30 other people and the ring was photographed (telephoto
>>lens) and videotaped (zoomed in and out) and the comments by
>>witnesses were recorded during the sighting (including my own).
>>A crude triangulation suggested a distance of several thousand
>>feet to a mile or so, implying some size (many feet to tens of
>>feet) of the ring. This is all described at:

>>http://brumac.8k.com

>>Scroll down to "Red Bubba comes to Gulf Breeze". This is not as
>>good as a daytime close up photo of a craft in full detail, but
>>certainly something was there that was unusual.

<snip>

>As for pictures of suspicious distant spots or star-like objects
>in the sky taken by multiple witnesses at approximately the same
>times and from the same geographic locations, these are common
>but there remains many questions such as whether it was the same
>object or UFO that was photographed.

If you read about the Bubba sightings you would know that in
many cases the multiple witness sightings from several locations
were correlated by comparing changes in the Bubba light with
time - color change, motion, appearance, disappearance, etc.

Furthermore the distances estimated were under 10 miles and
generally several miles,so they were not "distant" lights in the
astronomical sense. Many events were videotaped from two or more
locations and since the sightings were "dynamic" (not simply the
appearance and disappearance of a stationary light), it was
possible to compare changes in the light as they appeared in
different videos or photos and thus to establish positive
correlation... i.e., witnesses were not looking at different
lights but clearly at the some one.








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             Re: Davenport & Passive Radar SDI Interview OnLine

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:54:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:13:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Davenport & Passive Radar SDI Interview OnLine


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
>Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:51:19 -0400
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Davenport & Passive Radar SDI Interview OnLine


>Peter Davenport discussed his Passive Radar UFO detector project
>on 'Strange Days... Indeed' last Saturday night.

As I heard Peter's discussion, I wondered if it might be worthwhile
for UFO field researchers to consider setting up portable _active_
radar sets too, in areas of intense UFO activity? It's feasible, as
shown by the van-mounted radar sets used by storm chasers.
The wide area passive radar could catch the high and fast flyers,
while the portable units could catch local manifestations in those
places where UFOs are frequently seen. Having a radar trace in
addition to sightings is always a bonus.

I'd guess small vessel marine radar might be an option for
buying equipment.

Might also be worth doing in regions of intense crop glyph
activity.

For that matter, IR night vision stuff is on the market too.


Eleanor White








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               Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:57:58 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:15:57 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30 - Deardorff


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 19:37:12 -0400
>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30

>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:02:26 -0700
>>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30

>>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:46:15 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 30

><snip>

>>>All Martian meteorites traveled here via very long elliptical
>>>routes (much longer that the 52 million miles to which you
>>>refer) with no protection from cosmic rays and solar wind, as
>>>evidenced by their cosmic ray exposure ages. The Cosmic Ray
>>>Exposure (CRE) age of a Martian meteorite is the length of time
>>>from ejection off Mars until its fall onto the Earth's surface.

>>There may be a large uncertainty in our understanding of where
>>some of these meteorites, discovered mostly on Antarctica, came
>>from. As I understand it, there are 5 or 6 times as many found
>>from Mars as from the Moon. Why isn't the ratio at least that
>>much the other way around, considering the Moon's lesser gravit

>I keep up with both Martian and Lunar meteorite counts because I
>collect both types. Your information that there are 5 or 6 times
>more Martian meteorites known than lunar ones is very
>inaccurate.If fact, currently the number is almost equal, with
>33 Lunar meteorites known and 32 Martian meteorites. That
>changes the picture considerably.

Thanks for correcting me on that, Ray.

>FYI, Lunar meteorites tend to be smaller than Martian
>meteorites, but there are many different factors that may
>account for that, including a generally greater friability or
>brittleness of lunaites, perhaps due to their formation on a
>body of much lower gravitation than Mars.

I'd still expect a whole lot more Moon meteorites to be found on
Earth than Martian, since the escape velocity of the Moon is
scarcely half that of Mars, and since the Moon is some 200 times
closer to us than Mars is.

A planetary astronomer is still needed to properly consider all
the other factors and their details.


Jim D.









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                        Re: Varginha Again - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 22:25:21 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:17:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Friedman


>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 23:13:27 -0400
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>In this debate about the Varginha Case, I like to point out that
>the date of the sighting, January 20, 1996, coincides with the
>"chupacabras" wave; Puerto Rico, April 1995. Guatemala, October
>1995. Mexico, December 1995. Miami, February 1996. Costa Rica,
>April 1996.

>I wonder if Brazil's incident of 'Captured Aliens' as they are
>called, is nothing more than another "chupacabras" case. We have
>to be very careful about calling the creature "alien" or
>"extraterrestrial" without any physical evidence.

>If we were supposed to be scientifically inclined, why, I
>wonder... without strong data, only with some witnesses and a
>"doctor" stories did we assume the E.T. hypothesis?


>Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
>Miami UFO Center

I heard a lot of the first discussions about the Varginha case
way back in 1996 when I was in Curitiba, Brazil, for a UFO
conference. Graham Birdsall, John Carpenter and I interviewed
Vitorio Pacaccini ( he speaks English well) on camera and John
made a 113 minute video from the interview and the other
materials provided at that time. The Brazilian press also took
the case quite seriously and there were many different witnesses
. Graham did a big article for UFO magazine and Dr. John Mack,
working with the help of an interpreter, was also favorably
impressed with the girls who witnessed the strange beings.

Frankly, I am not at all ready to dismiss this case. I can't see
any connection with the fierce chupacabra. These beings were
scared, not aggressive.

Stan Friedman







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                        Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd  - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 22:45:25 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:21:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd


>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 23:13:27 -0400
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>In this debate about the Varginha Case, I like to point out that
>the date of the sighting, January 20, 1996, coincides with the
>"chupacabras" wave; Puerto Rico, April 1995. Guatemala, October
>1995. Mexico, December 1995. Miami, February 1996. Costa Rica,
>April 1996.

Virgilio,

I must emphasize that we have tried to connect the Varginha Case
to Chupacabras and several other phenomena with no success at
all. The Varginha creatures and their behavior were quite the
opposite to what have been described as Chupacabras' actions.
Besides, the wave of Chupacabras in Brazil started only about
late 1996. I have to be completely honest with you and say that,
in Brazil, only a small percentage of Chupacabras reports turned
out to be something extraordinary - quite unlike the Varginha
Case.

>I wonder if Brazil's incident of 'Captured Aliens' as they are
>called, is nothing more than another "chupacabras" case. We have
>to be very careful about calling the creature "alien" or
>"extraterrestrial" without any physical evidence.

All the main investigators of the Varginha Case have no doubt
that there is absolutelly no connection between it and
Chupacabras. When calling the Varginha creatures "alien" or
"extraterrestrial" we are only reproducing a most logical
assumption of their nature. As well as we are reproducing an
idea expressed by some of the most qualified first-hand
witnesses involved in the circumstances of the case. When you
mean "without any physical evidence", we have to agree, of
course, that there isn=B4t any that we can produce right now,
except the reports from many witnesses, military, fireman,
doctors and nurses and even a complete team of the most famous
Brazilian forensic doctor, Badan Palhares.

>If we were supposed to be scientifically inclined, why, I
>wonder... without strong data, only with some witnesses and a
>"doctor" stories did we assume the E.T. hypothesis?

Please review the info about the Varginha Case. You will easily
find out that there is an amazing and overwhelming amount of
data to stress out the alien and the craft=B4s debris as non-
terrestrial. The "Doctor" report is one of great value to the
research of the case and to the entire Ufology field. When have
we ever heard of someone involved in the health area to claim
with such certainty to have had an alien creature in his
hospital? Plus, he wasn=B4t alone with the creature and his
feelings about its nature were shared with other professionals.


A. J. Gevaerd








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              Re: NASA Unveils Radical New Space Shuttle Design

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 22:33:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:24:44 -0400
Subject: Re: NASA Unveils Radical New Space Shuttle Design


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: UFO Updates" <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 14:22:45 -0500
>Subject: NASA Unveils Radical New Space Shuttle Design

>Source: The Spoof

>http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s5i6038

>08-01-04

>"The original alien saucer, indeed from the Zeta Reticular star
>system 37.2 light years away had onboard literally thousands of
>technological devices so advanced that our scientists at the
>time could barely comprehend them. Over decades we finally
>figured out over 70% of their technology and began developing
>our own 'saucers'.

But does the effect have anything to do with the quantum
mechanics or what do we know that aliens interpret quantum at
the same level we do seems like a though worth going to sleep
on. What do I think, well I think it has to do with a generated
negative mass how else will you cut into and shrink a little
piece of space.

My bro-n-law, a particle physicist but now trained to do those
math probs teaching at nearby uni's. But anyway on a few bbq's
we do have these interesting discussion with respect to negative
mass and my intersteallar problem.

Is this always how the standard model of physics is being taught
now days when is it not fare to look beyond it's classicle
interpretation ?. Yes, yes we have to convince ourselves before
a world into this sub quantum world sees its framework.

Four blades of grass blowing in a wind while seeming
unpredictable by a math terms but is it that we can't see the
four blades of grass standing straight up, don't look so close.

When if something big happens in a nearby future that you and I
should know about and understand, how will effective it becomes
or what I read here tomorrow may shape those beliefs the day
after that and the day after that.

Keep up the good you fellas are doing here I really enjoy
tapping into your supreme futuristic intellect.


John








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                          Need Copy Of UFO Magazine

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:44:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:26:01 -0400
Subject: Need Copy Of UFO Magazine


Hi All,

I'm looking for the following magazine:

UFO Magazine, Volume 10, Number 3, May/June 1995

Any help would be greatly apprecaited, thanks.


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM








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                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 23:57:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:51:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 19:01:25 -0300
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 14:41:56 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>Kyle, I don't think I even have a copy of that letter from
>Wescott. However, I did publish his letter of April 7, 1986, and
>detailed and very impressive background information. I had
>supplied attorney Bob Bletchman with 27 communications from
>Hillenkoetter which I had obtained from the Truman Library. RW
>made this statement:

>"In my opinion there is no compelling reason to regard any of
>these communications as fraudulent or to believe that any of
>them were written by anyone other than Hillenkoetter himself.
>This statement holds for the controvesial presidential briefing
>memorandum of November 18,1952, as well as for the letters both

>On a preponderance of evidence criteria, noting that he and not
>the critics, looked at all the items not just the briefing, and
>noting his outstanding linguistics background, it appears that
>the briefing has not been shown to be fraudulent. I am not
>saying beyond any reasonable doubt. I consider this a civil
>matter not a criminal matter. Obviously there was always the
>possibility that a forger studied Hillenkoetter's writings in
>great detail and was able to simulate his style, etc. Any
>evidence for that? We obviously don't have the equivalent of DNA
>data here.

>I am reminded of some people claiming that well anyone could
>have gone to the Harvard Archives and found out about Menzel's
>connections with the NSA, CIA, etc. Certainly true, though it
>would have required written permission from three different
>people. But is there any evidence that anybody did?

>Others have said that anybody could have found out from the
>Truman Library that WB Smith's only meeting with Truman over a
>several month period was the 01 August , 1950, date noted in the
>EBD. But did they? I asked the TL if anybody else had asked  for
>dates of their meetings. The answer was NO. In other words could
>have, might have, etc, are not the same as did.

>Remember that Wescott did _not_ just look at the briefing
>document and provide a quick opinion.


Stan,

Well argued as usual.

You may of course be completely right about the documents. Your
certainty however has to rely on a couple of conjectures.
There's nothing wrong with this, especially in light of the
cogent arguments you provide. Yet they are still arguments.

The overwhelming evidence in favor of the authenticity of the
MJ-12 documents becomes somewhat less overwhelming for those
that aren't willing to make a few leaps of...faith.

My own opinion after reading your final report, and several
other compelling papers you have produced is that Roswell in
general, and MJ-12 specifically, remain for now tantalizing
mysteries. If your analyses are accurate, then the most likely
scenarios are but two.

First possibility, someone inside the government created the
documents and seeded them with information which could only be
discovered with some digging, knowing that the discovery of
corroborating dates, etc would tend to "authenticate" the
documents for the reasons you actually cite. If never
discovered, no harm done. The purpose to occupy the UFO
community with a tantalizing mystery for which there was much
smoke, but no fire. Divert attention from the truth...using
half-truths.

Second possibility, someone inside the government sent the
documents in an effort to reveal the UFO coverup. Since no note
was apparently included with the documents, the motives
(apparent or otherwise), cannot be determined.

I find this a weak possibility, because I feel strongly that if
the UFO research community) had such an ally, we would have been
provided with more evidence by now. If there is a coverup, and
someone is fighting it, he or she very likely is not alone.
Birds of a feather...

There is a third possibility I entertain from time to time,
typically when you resort to derogatory sarcasm as a substitute
for debate. It is rare but it is there. But I really don't think
you are "Menzel-in-reverse". :)

In sum, I find the first 2 possibilities equally plausible based
on your evidence, or more accurately the lack of certain
evidence. For me, the gaps are just too wide for my leaping
ability in the absence of another gap-filling piece of the
puzzle. Without more revealed secrets, the puzzle remains
incomplete.

Call me blind if you must. I just am not convinced that the MJ-
12 documents are real. Your arguments are basically that only
someone in the know could have created them. I fully agree. I
just don't agree on what follows from this.

Stan, you are owed a debt of gratitude by all that dare to think
the worst of their government, and actually try to prove it. You
have no doubt inspired others to do just that. Your
determination and perseverence are a model for how a scientist
must approach and execute research on a troubling dilemma.

You convinced me that something extraordinary happened in
Roswell. You convinced me that the government is capable of
lying...disinformation. And ironically, you convinced me that
the government is capable of doing exactly what that second
possibility above requires.

Until there are a couple of Ts dotted, my Is remain
frustratingly crossed.


With Respect,

Kyle









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                 Re: Dr. Poher's Mexican Airforce UFO Video

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 02:22:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:54:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. Poher's Mexican Airforce UFO Video


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 15:41:13 -0400
>Subject: Re: Dr. Poher's Mexican Airforce UFO Video Analysis

>>From: John Elliott <townsville3.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:47:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>Subject: Dr. Poher's Mexican Airforce UFO Video Analysis

>>As anticipated in a post by someone else, last month, Dr. Claude
>>Poher has published an analysis of this case (in French).

>>"ANALYSE SCIENTIFIQUE ET IDENTIFICATION
>>DE L=E2=80=99OBSERVATION FAITE PAR UN =C3=89QUIPAGE
>>DE L=E2=80=99ARM=C3=89E DE L=E2=80=99AIR MEXICAINE"

http://www.premiumwanadoo.com/universons/ovni_gbFr/observation_mexicaine_fr.=
pdf

>>Conclusion translated using Babelfish:

>>"Although this analysis was made from 5% of the enregistees data
>>aboard plane, the results confirm the account of the crew, but
>>not his interpretation.

>Poher made use of data I supplied to him as well as publicly
>available video.

>He may be right in saying the radar target is uninteresting
>because it is not connected to the FLIR lights and he may be
>correct in identifying the lights as oil field fires.

>Notice I said "may". In my opinion it is premature to state a
>conclusion.

>An important experiment has not yet been done to test the oil
>fire hypothesis.

>And the first radar target seems anomalous because:

>a) its sudden appearance

>b) the failure to see the object reflecting the radar despite
>many minutes of searching ahead of the plane when the radar
>indicated it was only about 2.3 mi ahead

>c) speed "jumps" (which may be an artifact of the radar - this
>is being checked on) and

>d) failure to detect anything on the FLIR that was definitely
>correlated with the radar target.

>Had the radar target been an airplane it would have been seen
>visually and its heat would have been picked up by the FLIR
>system.


As I pointed out in my post here on June 17, I found a
possible correlation between a Radar target and a FLIR target
for the 4:45- 4:46 PM time period of the March 5, 2004,
incident. See:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/jun/m17-020.shtml

But Poher flatly declares without a shred of detailed evidence
that "Radar detections have no relationship with the
observations on Flir, and they are banal." (Poher Report p. 25.)
The radar detections were _not_ banal and included the unusual
effects of optical and infrared invisibility as noted by
Maccabee (above) and noted in my posting here on June 11:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/jun/m11-
022.shtml

I also pointed out there were both Moon and _Sun_ position
calibrations of the FLIR system at 5:19:32 and 4:46:59.5 PM, a
half hour apart, neatly bracketing the unidentified FLIR images.
These calibrations allow us to determine that the Elevation
angles were both quite accurate and were displaying angles only
about 2 degrees too low, meaning that detected objects (Sun and
Moon and anything else) were actually slightly higher up in the
sky than the numbers shown on the FLIR readings. The Azimuth
angles to the Sun and Moon were also quite accurate, again with
only minor errors of about 2 degrees, both in the same sign (the
plus + direction, clockwise) of correction.

The reason why this is important is because the FLIR camera
shows the strange IR images in different directions than the
Canterell oil fields that Poher purports to explain them as. Not
only are the oil rig fires in the Gulf of Mexico in the wrong
directions (except possibly for the first or Group 1 images) but
they are at Elevation angles that put them up in the sky above
the earth's horizon (again excepting the Group 1 images). Oil
rigs cannot fly!

Poher's mass of bloated prose seems to be trying to get you to
not think about the fact the FLIR images are seen up in the sky
and that oil well fires would be below the earth's horizon. He
seems to want to make you think he has fully analyzed the
partial FLIR data he claims he has studied. But in fact he
suppresses important data he knows about, which he read in
Maccabee's report, such as completely omitting the Sun position
calibration of the FLIR angles. Poher mentions where the sun was
located but conveniently fails to mention that a sun reflection
was seen in the FLIR (noted in Maccabee's report that Poher
relies upon so heavily). The sun glint provides additional
calibration of the FLIR instrument that confirms the same amount
and sign (+2 degs in Azimuth and +2 degs in Elevation) of
correction as seen with the Moon's position in the FLIR.

Since the FLIR images were almost all within a 90-degree
quadrant of both the Sun and Moon positions, these positions
_both_ provide calibrations proving the accuracy of the FLIR
angles, contrary to Poher's unscientific mass of irrelevant
calculations, which are apparently designed to wow and impress
lay persons while distracting them from relevant issues (the
_Azimuths_ or directions of the Cantarell oil fires, not just
the _Elevation_ angles). Excepting possibly the first or what I
call Group 1 images, the oil wells were in the wrong directions
by up to 60 degrees! And contrary to Poher, the actual
calibrated Elevation angles place the IR images up in the sky
where visually they actually in fact appear to be in the FLIR
video. Oil wells cannot fly!


Mexican FLIR Groups of Single or Multiple "Lights" or IR Sources

Azimuth Angles Between FLIR Images and Oil Fires
Group 1. 5-30 degs
Group 2. 10-20 degs
Group 3. 35-60 degs
Group 4. 10-25 degs

(Azimuths are approximate and rounded to nearest 5 or 10 degrees
for simplicity.)

Times are CST:
Group 1. 1645-1649, 1651, BELOW EARTH HORIZON
Group 2. 1652 to 1709, ABOVE EARTH HORIZON
Group 3. 1714 to 1718, ABOVE EARTH HORIZON
Group 4. 1722:59 to 1723:42, 1726 to 1728, ABOVE EARTH HORIZON

Azimuths (from True North):
Group 1. NW (295 to 305 degs) (OIL FIRES AT 310-325 degs)
Group 2. NW (310 degs) (OIL FIRES AT 290-300 degs)
Group 3. N (350 to 335 degs) (OIL FIRES AT 290-300 degs)
Group 4. W (270 to 265 degs) (OIL FIRES AT 280-290 degs)
(Azimuths are approximate and rounded to nearest 5 or 10 degrees
for simplicity.)

This is the scientific "analysis" that Poher should have done,
and tries to make the reader _believe_ he has done, but in fact
he has not done. As you can see the directions or Azimuths to
the Cantarell oil fires are not even close to the FLIR images.
We know from the Sun and Moon calibrations that the FLIR
Azimuths were only in error by about 2 degrees and this simple
correction is easily applied but is negligible compared to 35-
60-degree discrepancies. It is grossly unscientific and
irresponsible to misrepresent what is admittedly only "some
degrees" (Poher p. 25) of angle correction as if they were 60
degrees!

We know where _all_ the oil fires are located in the Gulf of
Mexico because we have satellite images of _all_ bright spots,
as seen in military weather satellite (DMSP) images. So there
are not any "stray" oil well fires that may be out in some
extreme location away from Cantarell, which might account for
FLIR "lights" in other directions. This is all there is, at
Cantarell in the Gulf of Mexico just off the Yucatan, northwest
of Ciudad del Carmen.

Poher has resorted to outrageous Menzelian argumentation to
allege that the minor Elevation error in the system with a plus
(positive) +2- degree correction can be bootstrapped into a
whopping minus (negative) -4.7-degree correction to the opposite
sign of the actual correction! (See p. 15 of Poher's report.)
Despite these tedious displays of supposed erudite scientific
analysis with subsections captioned ostentatiously as
"Directions of Pointing of the FLIR in the Course of Sequence
Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4," Poher in fact does not ever analyze the
"direction of pointing" of the FLIR in relation to the Cantarell
oil fires!

Imagine that! Big long dull report and the one thing it is
supposed to be talking about according to these glaring
headlines is not actually even talked about at all! But if you
skimmed Poher's pile of propaganda really fast you might see the
titles and think he has covered the subject of the "directions"
and it must be just "so scientific and technical" that the
average reader's eyes will glaze over and assume it's answered
_somewhere_ in there!

Instead, in the middle of his bloated report he simply concludes
without a shred of numerical backup or substantiation that
during Sequences No. 1 and 2, and _only_ during those sequences
evidently, the Mexican FLIR images "correspond to the direction
of this zone" of flaming oil wells (Poher p. 15). In fact they
do not! And Poher then drops all discussion of the "directions"
of the oil well fires from this point onward in his report,
conveniently evading the contrary evidence of his even more
discrepant Sequences 3 and 4. That is the extent of Poher's
entire discussion of the "directions" to the oil well fires, a
part of only one sentence and I have quoted to you the entire
Poher discussion of the direction to the oil fires!

(Poher's "sequences" have nothing to do with my four Groups of
FLIR images which I have roughly organized by time, location and
behavior. His "sequences" are just convenient arbitrary labels
slapped onto the FLIR video excerpts he chose to study, and all
belong within my Groups 2 and 3.)

Poher's Selected "Sequences" for Study

Sequence No. 1 from 4:57:04 to 4:57:17 PM (Error! The times were
actually 4:53 or 1653, not 4:57 or 1657 as Poher carelessly
claims. Just look at the FLIR video frames Photos 1 and 2, p. 8
of Poher's Report.)

Sequence No. 2 from 5:03:39 to 5:03:57 PM
Sequence No. 3 from 5:06:25 to 5:07:19 PM
Sequence No. 4 from 5:15:15 to 5:15:26 PM


Poher deliberately ignores Maccabee's discovery of the Sun
reflection which provides an independent calibration separate
from that of the Moon's position which I had first discovered in
late May. Poher knew full well about the Sun calibration by
Maccabee because he references Maccabee's analysis numerous
times throughout his own report. The Sun position in the FLIR
readings was also about 2 degrees too low, just like the Moon's
position a half hour later. The two positions were separated by
about 42 degrees in the aircraft's relative bearing angles (Moon
at -7 and Sun at -49 degrees relative to aircraft's heading)
making it unlikely that the calibration error is due to a
mechanical pointing error of the FLIR mounting on the C-26A
aircraft, and more likely due to a digital display error in the
electronic settings.

But even if it had been as Poher's claims just a mechanical
mounting error (rather than a digital electronic error) the fact
the FLIR images were almost all of them within 90 degrees of the
Sun and Moon proves that the Sun-Moon corrections apply to
greater or lesser degree _only_ in the positive sign of
correction, thus _raising_ the actual Elevation angles of the IR
"lights" higher into the sky, rather than lowering them to
places beneath the earth's horizon edge where oil well flames
might be found. This is simple math.

Poher desperately and ridiculously tries to argue that the
slight 2-deg error in Elevation is a mechanical error that will
be highest in the direction of the Moon and lowest in the
opposite direction from the Moon, without ever considering a
digital electronic error that does not change with direction of
pointing the FLIR camera. And he deliberately disregards the
Sun position data in Maccabee's report as that would undercut
his baseless theory by showing the correction factor for
Elevation does not change depending on what direction the camera
was pointing at.

To sum up, Poher's 25-page effort to prove the oil well fire
theory is scientific hogwash that is refuted by the basic
verified numbers which he avoided "analyzing" in his so-called
"Analysis" of the Mexican AF FLIR case.


Brad Sparks








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                          Secrecy News -- 08/03/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 09:42:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:56:27 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/03/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 72
August 3, 2004


**      PROPOSALS FOR INTELLIGENCE REORGANIZATION, 1949-2004 (CRS)
**      THE OTHER DECLASSIFIED ITEM FROM THE PRESIDENT'S DAILY BRIEF
**      THE BIN LADIN CELL PHONE LEAK
**      ANTI-MISSILE INTERCEPTOR: IN ONE ERA, OUT THE OTHER
**      ISRAEL HIGH COURT REBUFFS VANUNU PETITION
**      GHANA: US SHOULD PAY FOR 1966 COVERT ACTION
**      FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT ACTIVITY AT ALL TIME HIGH


PROPOSALS FOR INTELLIGENCE REORGANIZATION, 1949-2004 (CRS)

In 1947, the basic framework of the modern U.S. intelligence
bureaucracy was established by the National Security Act.

In 1948, pressure for intelligence reform started to build.

"Beginning in January 1948, numerous independent commissions,
individual experts, and legislative initiatives have examined
the growth and evolving mission of the Intelligence Community,"
according to a timely new retrospective from the Congressional
Research Service.

"Proposals for the reorganization of the United States
Intelligence Community have repeatedly emerged from commissions
and committees created by either the executive or legislative
branches," according to the report, which reviews and summarizes
many of them.

The CRS account includes at least one notable error regarding a
prior proposal for intelligence budget disclosure.

The CRS says that "Responding to a longstanding criticism of
intelligence budget processes, the [1996 Aspin-Brown] Commission
recommended that the total amounts appropriated for intelligence
activities be disclosed -- a recommendation that was implemented
by the Clinton Administration for Fiscal Years 1997 and 1998."

This is historically inaccurate and misapprehends the way in
which past budget disclosures came about.

The Aspin-Brown Commission did recommend that the President
disclose both the total intelligence appropriation each year and
the total request for the following year. But the Clinton
Administration did not adopt this recommendation.

Instead, in an April 23, 1996 White House statement, the
President "authorized Congress to make public the total
appropriation-- the bottom line figure -- for intelligence at
the time the appropriations conference report is approved by
Congress." Congress declined to do so, and there the matter
stood.

It was only due to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit that the
stalemate was overcome.

In disclosing the 1997 budget figure on October 15, 1997, the
DCI cited the FOIA lawsuit, not the Commission recommendation,
as the driving factor behind the move. Likewise, the 1998 figure
was not spontaneously released, but only in response to a second
FOIA request. The annual budget request has never been
disclosed.

See "Proposals for Intelligence Reorganization, 1949-2004,"
Congressional Research Service, July 29, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32500.pdf

The White House indicated last week that further intelligence
spending disclosures are likely to be forthcoming in response to
the report of the 9/11 Commission.

"The President's senior advisors are currently preparing
recommendations on what steps can be taken in this area [budget
disclosure] consistent with national security requirements,"
according to a July 30 White House fact sheet.


THE OTHER DECLASSIFIED ITEM FROM THE PRESIDENT'S DAILY BRIEF

In addition to the now-famous August 6, 2001 President's Daily
Brief (PDB) article entitled "Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in
US," one other PDB article was declassified by the Bush
Administration in response to a request from the 9/11
Commission.

(Each PDB contains six to eight articles per day.)

A December 4, 1998 PDB article entitled "Bin Ladin Preparing to
Hijack US Aircraft and Other Attacks" was published in redacted
form in the 9/11 Commission report on pages 128-129. The text of
the article is available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/pdb120498.html

"The exact number of persons who receive the PDB varies by
administration," the 9/11 Commission noted. "In the Clinton
administration, up to 25 people received the PDB. In the Bush
administration, distribution in the pre-9/11 time period was
limited to six people." (Notes, p. 533).

"Had the contents of this PDB been brought to the attention of a
wider group, including key members of Congress, it might have
brought much more attention to the need for permanent changes in
domestic airport and airline security procedures," the
Commission report said (p. 344).


THE BIN LADIN CELL PHONE LEAK

It has often been loosely asserted that U.S. intelligence lost
its ability to monitor Osama bin Ladin's cell phone
conversations after its ability to do so was leaked to the
media.

The 9/11 Commission report has now presented an authoritative
account of the matter, and it specifies an unauthorized
disclosure to the Washington Times as the event that triggered
the loss:

"...Worst of all, al Qaeda's senior leadership had stopped using
a particular means of communication almost immediately after a
leak to the Washington Times. This made it much more difficult
for the National Security Agency to intercept his [bin Ladin's]
conversations."

See page 127 in Chapter 4 of the Commission Report:

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/911comm-sec4.pdf

The Commission footnote (chapter 4, no. 105) refers to a front
page story in the Washington Times on August 21, 1998 entitled
"Terrorist is Driven by Hatred for U.S., Israel," by Martin
Sieff, and to interviews with several intelligence community
officials.

That Washington Times story stated in passing that "He [bin
Ladin] keeps in touch with the world via computers and satellite
phones and has given occasional interviews to international news
organizations, including Time magazine and CNN News."


ANTI-MISSILE INTERCEPTOR: IN ONE ERA, OUT THE OTHER

The momentousness of the recent "deployment" of an anti-missile
interceptor in Fort Greely, Alaska was overstated in Secrecy
News (07/30/04).

The program director did declare that the move signified "the
end of an era," but he was exaggerating. The missile is not
operational. It is sitting in a hole in the ground. It provides
zero defensive capability.

Thanks to two well-informed readers.


ISRAEL HIGH COURT REBUFFS VANUNU PETITION

Israel's High Court last week rejected the petition of nuclear
whistleblower Mordechai Vanunu who sought an end to the
restrictions on his movements imposed by the Israeli government
following his release from an 18 year jail sentence (SN,
07/08/04).

The Court reviewed the case and presented its rationale in a
lengthy ruling July 26:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/bagatz072604-eng.html

Thanks to Yael Lotan for the expert translation.


GHANA: US SHOULD PAY FOR 1966 COVERT ACTION

Ghana's EGLE opposition party declared that the United States
should render financial assistance to the African country to
compensate for its role in the 1966 coup that overthrew the
government of Kwame Nkrumah.

"According to Mr Danny Ofori-Atta, chairman of the party, the
Central Intelligence Agency's recent declassified files clearly
admit the role of the United States played and it was only fair
that it made up for causing Ghana's economy to stagnate ever
since." See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/07/ghana073104.html


FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT ACTIVITY AT ALL TIME HIGH

The annual number of Freedom of Information Act requests to
federal government agencies exceeded three million for the first
time last year.

"The total number of Freedom of Information Act/Privacy Act
access requests received by all federal departments and agencies
during Fiscal Year 2003 was 3,266,394," according to a new
summary report on FOIA activity from the Justice Department
Office of Information and Privacy.

"This is 863,456 more than the number of requests received
during Fiscal Year 2002, an increase of nearly 36%, and it marks
the first year in which the three-million-request level has been
reached."

"It also stands as the greatest one-year increase ever in FOIA
requests received."

See "Summary of Annual FOIA Reports for Fiscal Year 2003":

http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/foiapost/2004foiapost22.htm



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691







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   Aug > Aug 3

                 Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 09:10:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:57:38 -0400
Subject: Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF


Errol & UpDates Folks --

A link to Max Burns' controversial paper describing a dodgy
threat to extant ufology.

http://www.rense.com/general56/RETRURN.HTM


alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.








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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 31

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 16:32:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:18:10 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 31

Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 31
August 4, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


UFO EXPLODES OVER
NORTHERN BRAZIL

      "The explosion of an unidentified flying object in
northern Brazil on Sunday morning (July 25, 2004) and
reported today (Thursday, July 29, 2004) shall be
investigated by scientific and police authorities,
according to a local radio station."
      "In Brasilia (the national capital--J.T.), according
to Radio O Dourado, National Secretary of Defense Jorge
Pimental advised local residents to avoid contact with the
object's remains."
      "The metallic parts of the object were scattered over
the municipalities of Barras, Batalha and Piacurcuca in
the northern state of Piaui, where residents heard a loud
report and saw a sudden light in the sky, according to
news broadcast reports."
      "The first hypothesis about the explosion is that it
was a satellite, according to police Sgt. Raimundo Nonato
of Batalha, who collected a piece 4 kilograms in weight
and one meter (3 feet, 4 inches) long, whose impact caused
a three-meter (10 feet wide) hole."
      "In Teresina, the capital of Piaui state, it was also
possible to see the illumination caused by the blast,"
which took place about "500 meters from the Alcantara
Space Facility."
(Editor's Note: Teresina is about 220 kilometers (132
miles) south of Barras.)
      "Nonato confirmed that no injuries were reported in
any of the three cities, while the Teresina airport noted
that an airliner crew reported the strange situation after
the explosion occurred."
      "The Technical-Scientific Department of the Piaui
police collected chunks of the unidentified flying object
that fell in the region after an explosion in the sky.
The material was sent to the National Institute for Space
Exploration (Portuguese acronym: INPE--J.T.) for a more
thorough analysis."
      "Menandro Pedro da Luz, Secretary of State for Safety
Matters, has said that he himself reviewed the material
collected and that it was more than a piece of an iron
plate, measuring one meter in length, that shows signs of
heating possibly as a result of entering Earth's
atmosphere."
      "'There is an INPE office at Navidad, in Rio Grande
do Norte (state), and there is one in Sao Luis, in
Maranhao (state), due to the Alcantara rocket launching
site.  They must identify the origin and state of the
material collected,' he said."
      "The local population has visited the place in order
to assuage their curiosity about the object that exploded
in the sky, causing a loud report and a flash during the
early morning hours of Sunday," July 25, 2004.
      Several hours before the explosion over Piaui state,
on Saturday, July 24, 2004, at 10 p.m., a luminous UFO was
sighted in the nearby state of Maranhao.
      "The sighting was over the Ilha da Cotijuba (island),
near Belem" on the Amazon River, about 800 kilometers (500
miles) northwest of Teresina.  "There were four UFOs with
blue lights and occasional tints of red and yellow.  They
were joined by another larger dark object not emitting any
light.  All of them flew at a very great velocity, from
the east to the west.  The objects were definitely inside
the atmosphere, the islanders reported."  (See the
Brazilian newspapers O Globo of Sao Paulo for July 29,
2004, "Alleged UFO explodes over Brazil" and O Minerao of
Belo Horizonte, M.G. for July 25, 2004, "UFOs seen in the
Amazon region."  Muito obrigado a Scott Corrales,
Eustaquio Andreas Patounas, Cristian Quintero, Liliana
Nunez e Brunilda Barros por esos casos.)


TURKISH POLICE VIDEOTAPE
UFOs TWICE OVER MERSIN

      "Mehmet Baydogan, deputy chief of police for the city
of Mersin" in southeastern Turkey "reported that police
officers captured an 'unidentified flying object' on video
near the Mersin Free Zone."
      Mersin is a port city on the Mediterranean Sea,
located about 300 kilometers (180 miles) south-southeast
of Ankara, the national capital.
      "Deputy Chief Baydogan explained at a press
conference in the (Mersin public) auditorium Tuesday
morning (July 27, 2004) that they received calls about the
UFO sighting near the Free Zone, and officers from
Turkey's Bureau of Investigation and Identification
arrived at the scene in question."
      "Baydogan stated that at 4 a.m. his officers recorded
the unidentified flying object with a video camera.  It
was mostly crimson-coloured, with tones of yellow and
green.  Its shape was round/circular, and it was
constantly moving and radiating light."
      "Baydogan added that after daybreak, the object
ascended and vanished in the sky, and that they had never
before experienced an event of this nature."
      "The video has been sent to the Sirius Space Sciences
Research Centre in Istanbul and to the Turkish Scientific
and Technological Research Association (Turkish acronym:
TUBITAK--J.T.) for analysis."
      "On Friday, July 30, 2004, Deputy Police Chief
Suleyman Ekizer of Mersin announced that his officers had
recorded yet another luminous UFO over the ATAS refinery."
      "At a press conference held at the Security
Department, Ekizer explained that an unidentified object
in the sky over the ATAS refinery was reported to the
information center at about 3:30 a.m." that Friday.
      "He also stated that the Bureau of Investigation and
Identification team sent to the place in question recorded
the unidentified flying object on video camera."
      "On (Tuesday) July 20, 2004, between 4 a.m. and 5:30
a.m., police had captured video of a luminous unidentified
flying object near the Free Zone Motorway Bridge, and the
footage had been sent to TUBITAK."
      "'For the second time (on July 30, 2004), we captured
on video an unidentified flying object.  Officials
reported that this round/circular luminous object had a
crimson colour, as well, with yellow/green shades, and was
constantly in motion, and was observed in the sky for two
hours.  However, this footage is not as clear as the
previous one,' Ekizer explained."
      "He also stated that the second object ascended,
going out of sight at 5:24 a.m., and that the (video)
footage will be sent to TUBITAK to be studied."  (Many
thanks to Haktan Akdogan, president of Sirius Space
Sciences Research Centre, and Esem Sekerkarar, MUFON
representative for Turkey, for these news stories.)


TWO UFO SIGHTINGS
REPORTED IN UK

      On Saturday, July 31, 2004, at 5:30 p.m., eyewitness
Deakin "was looking out toward Kinder Scout from
Hollingworth in Longendale," in northwestern England "and
right in the middle of my view there was a black object,
kind of hovering or floating.  It looked almost like a
pipe floating in the air very slowly, almost as if it were
being blown gently by the wind.  It was in a vertical
position but at a slight angle."
      "After almost five minutes, I used some binoculars to
look at it, and it appeared that it was slowly spinning
(rotating on its own axis--J.T.) as it was floating.  In a
way, every 10 to 15 seconds, a lighter side would come
into view, as if it were reflective, a grey metallic
colour appeared to flash."
      "It was a bright sunny day, and there were no clouds
in the sky."
      "The sighting lasted about 15 minutes, and then it
floated off into the distance until I could no longer see
it.  I'm not very good at this evaluating.  Perhaps about
600 feet (180 meters) up.  No, actually I think it must
have been much higher than that because when I first saw
it, it appeared to be about the same level as Kinder Scout
behind it, but much closer."  (Email Form Report)
      On Sunday, July 25, 2005, at 1:30 a.m., the female
witness spotted a UFO over Swansea, South Wales, UK.  "It
went from west to east across the face of the moon.  It
was an orangey globe, and it looked quite big in the sky.
About the same size of the moon, but obviously much
closer.  It didn't particularly glow but moved in a very
straight line very quickly.  A few other people saw this
orange/yellow globe.  It was about 200 feet (60 meters) in
the air and moved at 300 miles per hour (480 kilometers
per hour)."  (Email Form Report)


CIRCULAR UFO SIGHTED IN
CARTERVILLE, GEORGIA

      On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 10 p.m., eyewitness
M.C. saw a UFO approach from the south in Carterville,
Georgia (population 15,925)," a small city located on
Route 113 about 30 miles (50 kilometers) north-northwest
of Atlanta, the state capital.
      "It was somewhere around 10 p.m.," M.C. reported, "I
was lying on the grass, waiting for a friend of mine to
show up.  While I was waiting, I looked up at the moon.
After looking at it for a second or two, suddenly a
bluish-white object appeared right below it.  The object
had two lights on either side, and the object itself was
circular in shape.  A band of bluish-white lights
encircled the outside edge of the craft.  There were no
clouds it could have flown out from behind.  It was
roughly one-half to three-quarters the size of the moon.
This object literally appeared out of nowhere, without
making any noise.  It just materialized out of a black
patch in the sky."
      "It started moving westward at a fairly moderate
speed. It was not going very quickly or extremely slowly,
either.  There appeared to be a bluish trail behind it.
It traveled a distance as long as three to four full moons
placed end on end.  After it traveled this distance, it
suddenly disappeared."
      "The whole sighting lasted possibly ten seconds.  No
sound was heard emanating from the craft.  The body of the
craft itself appeared to be dark gray, possibly black.
And the edge of the craft was a band of blue lights.
Another circle of blue lights was centered within that."
(Email Form Report)


SILVER-SUITED ALIEN SEEN
IN KERMAN, CALIFORNIA

      On Monday, July 26, 2004, eyewitness E.B. reported,
"The power went out at about 1:20 a.m.  I jumped up to get
a flashlight and, while looking for one, the power came
back on.  I got to thinking about an unusual light I saw
in the sky at 12:30 a.m.  While I was looking in the area
of that light, I saw a glowing silver person flying above
(the neighborhood) at a height of 70 or 80 feet (21 to 24
meters).  It could not have been more than 100 feet (30
meters) in the sky because I saw it quite clearly.  It
flew at maybe a medium fast pace."
      "The moment I saw it, I screamed and ran inside,
slammed and locked the door, and continued to watch it
through the window.  It went behind some trees, and, when
it came out the other side, it shot off towards the north.
I didn't get any feeling of meanness or it wanting to do
me any harm.  I think the reason I screamed was because it
startled me.  I just wonder what that thing was.  When it
came out from behind the trees, it shot off like a
rocket."
      Kerman, Cal.(population 8,551) is on Highway 180
about 15 miles (25 kilometers) west of Fresno.  (Email
Form Report)


CROP CIRCLES FLOURISH IN
UK, CANADA AND POLAND

      On Sunday, July 25, 2004, "a 13-point crop formation"
was reported at Etchilhampton Hill, near Devizes,
Wiltshire, UK.
      On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, a passerby spotted a large
crop circle formation in a wheat field in Ashgrove,
Ontario province, Canada.  The following day, Wednesday,
July 28, 2004, the formation "was found by the landowner,
who had been away."
      The formation was described as "a double circle in
wheat, with 'half signs' of standing crop.  Approximately
38 meters (124 feet) long.  An investigation is now in
progress by Canadian Crop Circle Research Network-Ontario.
The landowner has requested that the specific location not
be publicised.  This is the fifth report in Canada for
2004."
      On Wednesday, July 21, 2004, "an agroformation (crop
circle) was found in the Rzezawa Valley, in the Bochma
district of the Malopolska (southern Poland--J.T.).  The
biggest crop circle in the formation measures 16.3 meters
(53 feet), and the smallest is only 3.4 meters (11 feet)
in diameter.  The total length of the agroformation is
54.7 meters (180 feet), and it is 16.3 meters (53 feet)
wide.  It was made in wheat on a line running from north
to south."
      "The witness stated that the agroformation appeared
the night of July 21st, and during this night there were
different phenomena--white lights above and a big 'star'
that had fallen on the (wheat) field.  There was also a
strange short-circuit which struck first at the local 15-
kilovolt power line.  The (utility) pole was damaged by
unknown causes.  The Polish government said the pole was
'damaged by lightning.'  But there were no storms that
night."
      A second round of "agroformations" appeared in Poland
during the night hours of Saturday, July 31, 2004.  "Crop
circles were reported in Nowe, in Mlyny village near
Wylatowo, and in Miradz village near Strzelno."  (Many
thanks to Steve Wilson Sr., Paul Anderson of CCRN, Robert
K. Lesniakiewicz and Leszek Owsiany for the crop circle
news reports.)


      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us in seven days
for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you next time!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
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             Re: Question About Artists AndAbductees/Contactees

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 15:43:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:21:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists AndAbductees/Contactees


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 02:49:18 -0400
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists AndAbductees/Contactees

>>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 15:37:10 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

<snip>

>I found Sheryl's data alarming. Good point there too Sandow.

>Reason for asking about artists  - including all arts from music
>to literature etc. - is because _if_ this was one criteria for
>abduction it could mean that because artists communicate in
>their various ways.

>Upon retrospect I've realized the abductees I've talked to
>appear all to be artistic in some way. If not all, I'd say the
>majority. One fellow, a top jazz musician, I'd like to get to
>talk more of his experiences but he's reticent to do so publicly
>anymore.

>Further study and statistics are required.


Greg,

Couldn't that simply be because those are the circles you travel
in primarily or to a large extent? Various filter factors ar at
work in our perceptions of this, including your definition of
"artistic in some way." Wouldn't most of us qualify by that
definition? Yes, real statistics are needed, professionally
analyzed.


 - Dick








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                        Re: Close-Up Photos - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:56:52 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:24:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Ledger


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:51:45 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>Please don't 'shoot the messenger', but those are among the
>most obviously fake 'UFO' photos I've ever seen, showing small
>models evidently suspended on transparent nylon lines, and quite
>close to the camera.


Ray and Erik'

There is also evidence of cross hatching in the last photo. It
looks as though the hoaxer used some form of broad nylon
netting-the edges fixed offscreen to poles perhaps - on which
were attached the models. If in photo 3 the two lines seen were
explained away as contrails then their reflection onto the
clouds below would show up as dark streaks, which would be the
 contrail's shadow.


Don Ledger









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                 Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Tue,  3 Aug 2004 09:43:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:26:31 -0400
Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Shell


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:03:11 -0700
>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>All else being equal, I think the responsibility rests on the
>persons yelling "fraud" to provide evidence for their
>accusations.

Since most people who take photos are not involved in hoaxing, I
would say that such a hoax claim does qualify as
'extraordinary'.








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                      Re: Close-Up Photos - Albrektson

From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:21:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:28:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Albrektson


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:51:45 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>Please don't 'shoot the messenger', but those are among the most
>obviously fake 'UFO' photos I've ever seen, showing small models
>evidently suspended on transparent nylon lines, and quite close
>to the camera.

<snip>

>The hoaxer in this case clearly knows virtually nothing about
>how bona-fide UFOs look or of their propulsion physics, and,
>IMO, should be ashamed of himself for injecting a photographic
>hoax into so important a matter as the UFO mystery. In some such
>cases, the motive seems to be getting a sense of superiority and
>power over the people that are fooled by the hoax. In others, as
>Adamski confessed to me was the case with his hoaxes, the motive
>was money. In others, a combination of the two motivational
>factors may be at play. A third possibility is the injection of
>figurative crap like this into the UFO picture by a group that
>may have a vested interest in the fact that eventual exposure of
>the fake photos or films will help discourage media and public
>interest in the subject, thereafter. Take your choice or
>choices.

>Whatever the motivation, these hoax photos are some of the most
>naive I have seen in years, even though quite a bit of planning,
>model-making, and suspension went into taking them! Hey, Erik,
>look more closely. Then, wake up and smell the B.S.! Considering
>the brownish color of the sunlit part of those UFO models, at
>least the hoaxer got the color right! :) LMAO!

Thanks for your detailed analysis Ray. You'll notice that my
post said that I found the photos "impressive" and "fun to
examine". Don't recall any language from me that could be taken
as vouching for their authenticity.

Since you obviously consider yourself to be an "expert" at
distinguishing between fake UFO's and the real McCoy I will
exercise iron self-discipline and refrain from debating the
finer points of interpreting photographic artifacts of saucer
propulsion, "magnetohydrodynamically" included.

My original post was not to promote any particular photo but to
put forth the thesis that the physical existence of non-human
unknown aerial phenomena (ufos, flying saucers, whatever) has
been conclusively established by the voluminous photographic
evidence that has accumulated over the past 60 years. This is
true even assuming that a significant or even large percentage
are fakes, misidentified objects, film flaws, etc,.

Unfortunately, good daylight disk sightings are quite scarce
these days. A decline that is highly anomalous as it coincides
squarely with the rise in camcorder popularity.

In my prior post I said, "one wonders if 'strange lights in the
night sky' type sightings would similarly diminish if high
quality night vision technology were available to the masses.
Given the "technological parallelism" that seems to accompany
the UFO phenomenon, my guess is that the night skies would be as
empty as daylight skies if technology made it possible to "light
the skies" for the masses. Won't happen anytime soon thought, so
the field will continue to be plagued by the "I saw some weird
lights last night" type sightings. Useless, tiresome and
ultimately futile for "investigators" who think they are
contributing to any increased understanding of the subject.

Thanks for your response, Ray.


Erik Albrektson








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                    Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:32:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:30:13 -0400
Subject: Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed - King


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon,  2 Aug 2004 14:13:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed

>>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 17:41:20 +1000
>>Subject: More Daytime UFOs Videoed

>>http://theozfactor.nucleardays.com/ufo-16july2004.htm

>Gotta get an optical zoom.That digital zoom stuff is just awful,
>and "enhancing" those little smeared-out pixels really doesn't
>help. Optical is the only way to go.

Tim,

Optical zoom would have resulted in a mundane photo of a mylar
balloon cluster. Where's the fun in that? :)


Kyle








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                Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:28:18 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:31:46 -0400
Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Sparks


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:03:11 -0700
>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:51:46 -0500
>>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:51:17 +0100
>>>Subject: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>>If there was one UFO photo, out of the thousands, which one
>>>would it be that you would put foward as the nearest to an
>>>unexplained, structured object unknown to this earth?

<snip>

>All else being equal, I think the
>responsibility rests on the persons yelling "fraud" to provide
>evidence for their accusations.

No sorry that's not how it works. UFO cases have to go through
competent scientific-technical screening (Hynek Screening) and
investigation first before they can really be considered
legitimate "UFO" cases instead of indeterminate status. UFO
photographs are no exception.







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                        Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:28:23 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:33:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:59:09 +0100
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO\ <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:24:32 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

<snip>

>I would just like to say, that I also feel that the Varginha
>case is a very strong case, with many things that happened,
>which were all wittnessed.

>A colleague of mine, from Sao Paulo, spent some time with the
>girls who saw the creature in the village, and gathered a great
>sense of honesty, about what they had seen.

>You can read then full account here:

>http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/VarginhaDairy.html


Hello Roy,

Thank you for your support.

Most people do not know, but the girls have been subject to two
bribery attempts, probably from the military (who operated in a
MIB style). They were very poor at the time of the happening -
 as they are still poor these days - but very honest. The guys
offered them a great sum om money and "anything they could think
about", as they said. The girls never accepted in reported the
fact to the researchers, who then told to the press.

The girls never changed one single line in their report and they
never made any money whatsoever with it at all. Quite the
opposite, their lives was turned upside down because of the
Varginha Case. And because of some prejudice by people in that
town, not even a decent job they could get. This is probably the
biggest reason why they simply refuse to talk about it these
days. As some other witnesses.


A. J.








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                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:39:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:36:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 20:22:48 +0100
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:44:42 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>So Stan is now telling us that:

<snip>

>Thus we have the position that Stan, in order to maintain that
>all three papers are authentic, has to tell us that none of them
>was in fact written by its indicated author!

>Truly amazing.

>I wonder what the CIA or Hillenkoetter would have done had the
>'missing' T-F original (with T's signature) suddenly turned up
>after H sent his briefing to Ike!

>The CIA would then have egg on its face and be forced to find a
>way out of their predicament, since they would then have in
>their possession one T-F memo with one Truman signature and the
>same memo with a different Truman signature (i.e. the one lifted
>from another document).

>Let's get real for once: no CIA agent with even half a brain
>would ever try to transplant the signature of a serving
>President from one document. to another.

Perfectly cogent arguments. If Stan's case hinges on the CIA
transplanting the President's signature, the case fails there.
If one believes it, the story is plausible. If one requires
evidence to support it, the case fails.


Kyle








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                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:50:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:42:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 23:13:22 +0100
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:44:42 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>There was no forgery. Forgers make every effort, whether in
>>paintings or documents, to avoid doing anything to call
>>attention to themselves.

>Wonderful. This piece of Friedmanite logic should save us all a
>lot of trouble. If a document, (or anything else) particularly
>one which supports the Friedmanite agenda, has a flaw in it
>which might, to the uninitiated eye might make it look dubious
>and possibly false, it cannot be so, because, as we are reminded
>"Forgers make every effort ... to avoid doing anything to call
>attention to themselves". So the very existence of a fault
>proves its genuiness.

>On the other hand, if investigators are unable to find anything
>wrong with an item, and it appears to be perfectly genuine, well
>then, erm, it must be genuine as well!

>This new revelation will save a great deal of work for museum
>and gallery curators across the world; and Stanton, I've got a
>couple of very nice Picasso drawings you might be interested in
>buying at a reasonable price.


Not to mention that the statement is pure proclamation, a Friedman
no-no.....


Kyle








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                         Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 10:48:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:49:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 19:09:58 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:43:39 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:58:59 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

><snip>

>>>>To my knowledge, there is not a single case where two or more
>>>>unrelated people captured either close-up or mid-range photos of
>>>>the same UFO on approximately the same time and day but from
>>>different locations.

><snip>

>>>In Gulf Breeze (gulp!) from Nov 1990 through July 1992 there
>>>were about 170 sightings of "bubba" recorded by numerous
>>>witnesses. In many of these sightings there were multiple
>>>cameras and videocameras, sometimes from widely separated (miles
>>>apart) locations, which allowed for triangulation. The most
>>>interesting recorded phenomena were rings of light or structured
>>>light images, not just dots. During the evening of Sept 16,
>>>1991, I was a witness to a ring of lights that appeared in the
>>>sky for about 70 seconds. I didn't call the guys in white coats
>>>to come and take me away (ho ho...ha ha) because there were
>>>about 30 other people and the ring was photographed (telephoto
>>>lens) and videotaped (zoomed in and out) and the comments by
>>>witnesses were recorded during the sighting (including my own).
>>>A crude triangulation suggested a distance of several thousand
>>>feet to a mile or so, implying some size (many feet to tens of
>>>feet) of the ring. This is all described at:

>>>http://brumac.8k.com

>>>Scroll down to "Red Bubba comes to Gulf Breeze". This is not as
>>>good as a daytime close up photo of a craft in full detail, but
>>>certainly something was there that was unusual.

><snip>

>>As for pictures of suspicious distant spots or star-like objects
>>in the sky taken by multiple witnesses at approximately the same
>>times and from the same geographic locations, these are common
>>but there remains many questions such as whether it was the same
>>object or UFO that was photographed.

>If you read about the Bubba sightings you would know that in
>many cases the multiple witness sightings from several locations
>were correlated by comparing changes in the Bubba light with
>time - color change, motion, appearance, disappearance, etc.

>Furthermore the distances estimated were under 10 miles and
>generally several miles,so they were not "distant" lights in the
>astronomical sense. Many events were videotaped from two or more
>locations and since the sightings were "dynamic" (not simply the
>appearance and disappearance of a stationary light), it was
>possible to compare changes in the light as they appeared in
>different videos or photos and thus to establish positive
>correlation... i.e., witnesses were not looking at different
>lights but clearly at the some one.

If it's close enough to triangulate, why wasn't there anybody
around with a halfway decent optical zoom lens? Unless this
"Bubba" is only the size of a basketball or something.

Honestly, that little ring of lights is not exactly the kind of
high-res, high-detail shots we're all still looking for. If it
has rivets, I want to see them! That's how close I want. For all
I know "Bubba" could be a model airplane with an LED display on
it.








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               SDI's Interview With Dr. Jacobs & 'The Threat'

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 13:40:21 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:55:39 -0400
Subject: SDI's Interview With Dr. Jacobs & 'The Threat'


I was listening to the archived Strange Days... Indeed interview
with Dr. Jacobs about his book The Threat.

http://www.virtuallystrange.com/ufo/sdi/sdiarchive/sdi022.ra

I was so blown away I couldn't speak for a spell.

That old saying "Just what the doctor ordered." came to mind.

This has got to be most bone chilling, skin crawling, pulse
pounding interview I've ever listened to.

If it weren't for Errol and Dr. Jacob's sense of humor I might
have been a permanent resident of 'under the bed, under the
covers'.

Although I'm not a proponent of gathering data from subjects
under hypnosis, Dr. Jacobs bravely and honestly states that it's
the 'worst evidence' as it's still anecdotal, yet what he's
gleaned from it all is the clearest, simplest yet scariest
synopsis yet.

When The Threat came out, I went to get a copy but it was
always sold out or the bookstores would shiver in fright when I
asked them about it.

Dr. Jacobs and Stan Friedman should be on every major news
service venue on the planet relating their collective data.

Dr. Jacobs didn't douse us with 'messages' but with 'actions'
which is what is needed to be done. From that alone one can
gather 'motivations'.  It left us on a cliffhanger as now we've
got to figure out the 'when' factor.

That left such a chilling note that it makes one walk around
with 'eyes wide opened'.

Thank goodness a level headed professional is in this business
who knows how to communicate straight from the shoulder and with
a sense of humor.

I would send that link to everyone I know but I'm reticent to do
so as it might send them into a panic.

What say you all?


Best,

Greg








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                     Cold War Classified Skyhook Program

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 10:45:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 14:57:23 -0400
Subject: Cold War Classified Skyhook Program


The Cold War's Classified Skyhook Program
A Participant's Revelations

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/skyhook.html

Classified high-altitude, long-duration flights of huge Skyhook
balloons, which often returned their secret payloads to the
surface, began in 1947 and continued for several decades.

This secret Cold War program was the likely progenitor of many
key aspects of UFO mythology.

...much more at URL...









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               Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:51:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 03:07:44 -0400
Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Stanford


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:03:11 -0700
>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

<snip>

>John, Roy, List, EBK,

>I bought the last copy of Richard Brunswick's "UFO" photo
>collection after following the link Don posted. I too find it
>fascinating and well worth the $23. Brunswick "also believes
>some of the photographs to be fake, though he's convinced
>that the majority are authentic." Many of them should be
>thoroughly discussed. John's vivid encounter and description
>closely matches several of Brunswick's photos.

>If Ray still has his copy, I'd like him to debunk the series of
>photos on pg. 238-239. I'm not clear how he distinguishes the
>frauds from the legitimate so those photos should allow him
>demostrate these abilities. All else being equal, I think the
>responsibility rests on the persons yelling "fraud" to provide
>evidence for their accusations.

>How many Updates List members have a copy of "UFO"? Perhaps we
>could talk off-List?


Ed,

How funny! Go back from the photos to which you refer (on pages
238 and 239) to page 234 and 235, and look at that ridiculous
photo of a silly little UFO model, claimed to be a UFO
photographed in "Sta. Ana, California - USA 14 May 1962".

Then go to the photos to which you refer on pages 238 and 239,
said to have been taken in, "Jacksonville, Florida - USA 24 may,
1953".

Hey, you really are very, very funny, Ed. Does the house and
whole scene look familiar? :) Didn't you notice that, amazingly,
the house and even the palm tree frond ("May 14, 1953"), is the
very same house and palm frond transferred by time machine and
teleportation to "Sta. Ana, California" on May 14, 1962!

The only difference is that the old Cadillac has been moved out
of the driveway and the photos were taken at different times,
with a clear sky and with a cloudy one. That palm frond is still
in exactly the same condition and place, nine years and
thousands of miles apart. :) LMAO!

Zhazam! Your arrogant and silly question has demonstrated how
naive, unobservant, and sold-out-to-belief you are, Ed.

And with such an appetite as you have for utter crap, perhaps
you like that stuff resembling diarrhea clearly splattered all
over those photos to make them look old. :)

Some people have simply the will to believe. Others are even
more extreme and have almost a conscious will to make fools of
themselves. I leave it to other list members to decide where to
place you, Ed.

I have never been a "debunker" (as your wording implies), but
since my teens, I have become increasingly a realist.

Your ability to discern real UFO photos is about as good as your
ability to distinguish between volcanic rock and a UFO crash
site!

Thanks for the opportunity, Ed. :)


Ray Stanford







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                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:05:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 03:15:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:56:52 -0300
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:51:45 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

><snip>

>>Please don't 'shoot the messenger', but those are among the
>>most obviously fake 'UFO' photos I've ever seen, showing small
>>models evidently suspended on transparent nylon lines, and quite
>>close to the camera.

>There is also evidence of cross hatching in the last photo. It
>looks as though the hoaxer used some form of broad nylon
>netting-the edges fixed offscreen to poles perhaps - on which
>were attached the models. If in photo 3 the two lines seen were
>explained away as contrails then their reflection onto the
>clouds below would show up as dark streaks, which would be the
> contrail's shadow.


Thanks, Don,

Yes, I noticed that but did not mention it because I did not
know if that 'cross hatching' might be an effect of some kind of
optical or digital copying, or a combination thereof. But, yes,
it looks very suspicious.

Ray Stanford








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                Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:16:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 03:17:38 -0400
Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Gehrman


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:28:18 EDT
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:03:11 -0700
>>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

<snip>

>>All else being equal, I think the
>>responsibility rests on the persons yelling "fraud" to provide
>>evidence for their accusations.

>No sorry that's not how it works. UFO cases have to go through
>competent scientific-technical screening (Hynek Screening) and
>investigation first before they can really be considered
>legitimate "UFO" cases instead of indeterminate status. UFO
>photographs are no exception.

Brad,

Have you looked at Brunswick's "UFO". There are hundreds of
photos from many countries. The photos exist. Ray says they're
all hoaxed.

I'm not a photo expert but have spent time viewing many UFO
photos, and carefully following the Updates discussions,
especially those covering the McMinnville photos.

Most of the photos in "UFO" seem legitimate, and I can't see how
they could all be hoaxed, but I realize that I'm an amateur so
I'm open to a persuasive argument. The photos I suggested Ray
analyze seem convincing. I'd like to hear what Ray has to say.
As far as I can tell, we're at the stage where the "competent
scientific-technical screening (Hynek Screening) and
investigation" could begin.

The photo series I suggested seems to show a UFO in a fall of
angel hair. Since Ray's declaration that the entire book was
filled with nothing but frauds good only for sanitary cleansing
tended to mute any further discussion, I thought he might want
to provide some evidence. Isn't that the basis for most
"competent scientific-technical screenings"?


Ed








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              Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Albrektson

From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:25:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 03:21:40 -0400
Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Albrektson


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:28:18 EDT
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:03:11 -0700
>>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

<snip>

>>All else being equal, I think the
>>responsibility rests on the persons yelling "fraud" to
>>provide evidence for their accusations.

>No sorry that's not how it works. UFO cases have to go through
>competent scientific-technical screening (Hynek Screening) and
>investigation first before they can really be considered
>legitimate "UFO" cases instead of indeterminate status. UFO
>photographs are no exception.

Where exactly does one obtain the necessary accreditation to
perform the "competent scientific-technical screening" that is
required? And who "enforces" such a requirement? I was not aware
(after 40 years of observation) that the phrase "UFO
Investigator" actually carried with it a mandatory requirement
of scientific competence.

What's more, exactly what purpose continues to be served by
performing the same "investigations" into the same sightings
year after dreary year? Anyone reading even a small fraction of
the available sighting evidence these past 60 years would have
to have a serious mental pathology not to believe that non-human
unknown aerial phenomena occur on a regular basis throughout the
world.  Continued "investigations" of "strange lights in the
night sky" would seem to be pointless unless there is a new or
unusual element to the event.

Perhaps I am just getting old and cynical but, when it comes to
UFO's, the only current "investigations" that hold much interest
are those with good photos. Quality photographic evidence offers
the only realistic possibility of shedding new light on the
physical reality of UFO's.  Testimonial evidence has taken us
nowhere for 30 years at least. Until we capture one or it
voluntarily presents itself for inspection, good photos are our
best bet for significantly upgrading our understanding of the
phenomenon.

Speaking of good photos, isn't it interesting how many UFO
videos in the past 15 years seem to display a similar object?
Seems that I have viewed countless amateur videos of UFO's with
what appears to be a fuzzy ball of mercury suspended in air and
constantly changing shape from spherical to oblong to ellipsoid,
etc. Some kind of interference always surrounds this object and
prevents a good crisp image. I don't believe this type of UFO
was often caught on film prior to 1980.


Erik Albrektson








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                          Re: ETH Modeling - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 18:42:29 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 08:59:56 -0400
Subject: Re: ETH Modeling - Sparks


>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 23:15:35 -0700
>Subject: ETH Modeling

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:13:43 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>I stand by my "sweeping" criticisms and challenge you [Jerry] once
>>again for about the 4th or 5th time to quote me the UFO researcher
>>who has done actual numerical modeling of ETH in a testable way so
>>that we are not vulnerable to the biases of SETI doing it "for
>>us" and coming up with predictable anti-UFO results. I have said
>>I know of no such quantitative testable ETH modeling by the UFO
>>community and that "interesting writing on ETH" is palpably not
>>the same thing.

>>I have also said repeatedly that I would be delighted to find
>>some overlooked body of literature on ETH model building. ...

>A possible example of such modeling is in the 1987 paper by
>Martin J. Fogg, in _Icarus_ 69, 370-384 (1987). The title is:
>"Temporal aspects of the interaction among the first Galactic
>civilizations: The 'Interdict Hypothesis'." It contains the
>results of his numerical model of ET expansion within the Galaxy
>using a range of basic assumptions.. His abstract reads:

>"Simulations of the origin, expansion, and interaction of the
>first galactic civilization to arise suggest a chronology of
>events which have possible implications for the resolution of
>Fermi's paradox. These are considered and an "Interdict
>Hypothesis" is proposed to explain the absence of any obvious
>sign of extraterrestrial presence in the Solar System."

>His model gives the usual colonization of the Galaxy by ETs,
>which he finds occurs even before the Solar System and Earth are
>born. He adds various assumptions as to why we're not colonized,
>and settles for a generalization of Ball's "zoo hypothesis"
>having been implemented in the past few billion years or so. He
>seems to make use of Newman & Sagan's suggestion of a "Codex
>Galactica" that ETs are supposed to abide by. No mention of the
>UFO phenomenon (since he wanted his paper to be published?).


Thanks Jim, just what I was looking for, though please note that
the context of my request was that as I have been saying all
along, the SETI community (such as Fogg in Icarus) has been
publishing models of ETH but that the UFO community has not, or
has only very isolated instances that are not cumulatively built
upon, so I would be "delighted" to find some overlooked "body of
literature" by the UFO community attempting to model ETH in a
testable quantitative way, as Jerry seemed to imply or allude to
existing somewhere.

The SETI paper by Fogg and others are good places to start for
the UFO community, and the "good' stuff should be sifted from
the "bad."

Speaking of the Fermi Paradox, this discussion between Fermi and
three colleagues at Los Alamos about June 1950, which may have
resulted in the first version of the Drake Equation, started
with talk about flying saucers. Participants told Eric Jones
they recalled negative commentary on saucers but that Fermi
argued for a very real chance of faster-than-light travel but
then wondered aloud "Where are they?" (Where are all the aliens
who should be here visiting if that was the case.) Then ensued
the discussion of reasons why allegedly no alien contact.

But in fact Los Alamos in 1950 was a hotbed of pro-UFO activity.
 An informal group of about a dozen lab scientists including
Harold Agnew (future Director of Los Alamos) formed a UFO
investigation group. The same or a similar group at Los Alamos
formed shortly thereafter to set up instruments to detect UFO's.
 Some of this story in garbled form is reported in Ruppelt's
book in The Radiation Story chapter. Edward Teller and other
top Los Alamos officials had participated in two Green Fireball
Conferences in Feb and Oct 1949. It is likely that the negative
recollections of Teller and others about what Fermi said have
been colored by anti-UFO bias that may not have existed in 1950
and/or have distorted the accounts in a more hostile anti-UFO
sense than was actually the case.


Brad Sparks






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                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Harrison

From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:40:33 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 09:03:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Harrison


>From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:20:20 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:53:26 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

><snip>

>>Bottom line is it's simply numbers.

><snip>

>For what it's worth, the most impressive UFO photos I have yet
>to come across are from the 1993 Australian sighting near Maslin
>Beach. I have seen printed versions of these that are far more
>impressive than even the screen photos below. Do they feature a
>"real" flying saucer? Beats the hell out of me, but they sure
>are fun to examine!
>http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/shaman/924/main_page.htm

>Erik Albrektson


Hi Erik

I would like to inform you the Maslin Beach photos have not yet
been proven to be fake. Debbie Pyane of AURA has informed me
another wittiness has come forward to verify that what is in
these photos is a real UFO as the witness says she saw the
objects.

For the moment we are waiting for Debbie's to complete her
report.

I must admit these photos are great, and as some would say, they
look to good to be real.

We will keep you informed of the outcome.


Regards Diane Harrison

National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn.nul
E-mail: ufologist.nul
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD  Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
          1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>






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                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:54:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 09:10:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford


>From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:21:13 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:51:45 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

><snip>

>In my prior post I said, "one wonders if 'strange lights in the
>night sky' type sightings would similarly diminish if high
>quality night vision technology were available to the masses.
>Given the "technological parallelism" that seems to accompany
>the UFO phenomenon, my guess is that the night skies would be as
>empty as daylight skies if technology made it possible to "light
>the skies" for the masses. Won't happen anytime soon thought, so
>the field will continue to be plagued by the "I saw some weird
>lights last night" type sightings. Useless, tiresome and
>ultimately futile for "investigators" who think they are
>contributing to any increased understanding of the subject.

>Thanks for your response, Ray.

Thanks, Erik,

Your comments contrasting reports of daylight sightings with
those at night, makes me feel that I should report my projects'
in-field experience that will probably surprise you or most list
members.

As it happens, from our experience, co-workers and I have
deduced that bona-fide UFOs are far more present in daylight
skies than at night. I've wondered if perhaps they realize they
are much more easily spotted against a night sky than against a
comparatively bright daylight sky.

Of course, the ease of noticing bright light sources against a
night sky makes reporting of hard-to-interpret sources of light
in the night far more likely because they simply are more
noticeable. Now, please note that I am not referring to landings
of UFOs, per se, but to in-the-sky sightings.

For example, although our project has spent far more time out in
the open at night than by daylight, in all the many hours spent,
we have taken only two movies of UFOs at night (Unfortunately,
one of them never came back from the processing lab.), while we
have gotten a much larger number of movies and still photos in
daylight.

In short, we have found daylight UFO searches far more
productive that nocturnal ones, and I am not referring to
getting films by mistaking things like sunlight glaring off
aircraft or balloons, etc.

By the way, I doubt that UFO presence has diminished in recent
years, even though my personal sightings, which used to be
embarrassingly frequent, have diminished exponentially. That
could have something to do with my track research, however. :)
Looking down doesn't help spot UFOs.

I do suspect, however, that UFOs have become much more stealthy
over recent decades, and we may have some evidence pointing in
that direction. That hypothesized increase in stealth might have
been necessitated by technological advances right here on earth.

Hey, Erik, where in this world are you located?


For what its worth,

Ray Stanford








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                         Re: Close-Up Photos - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:16:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 09:15:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - King


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:51:45 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:53:26 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>><snip>

>>>Bottom line is it's simply numbers.

>><snip>

>>Yes it is a numbers game. But I view the numbers aspect from a
>>somewhat different angle.

><snip>

>>For what it's worth, the most impressive UFO photos I have yet
>>to come across are from the 1993 Australian sighting near Maslin
>>Beach. I have seen printed versions of these that are far more
>>impressive than even the screen photos below. Do they feature a
>>"real" flying saucer? Beats the hell out of me, but they sure
>>are fun to examine!

>>http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/shaman/924/main_page.htm

>Please don't 'shoot the messenger', but those are among the most
>obviously fake 'UFO' photos I've ever seen, showing small models
>evidently suspended on transparent nylon lines, and quite close
>to the camera.

<snip>

>Whatever the motivation, these hoax photos are some of the most
>naive I have seen in years, even though quite a bit of planning,
>model-making, and suspension went into taking them! Hey, Erik,
>look more closely. Then, wake up and smell the B.S.! Considering
>the brownish color of the sunlit part of those UFO models, at
>least the hoaxer got the color right! :) LMAO!

One wonders why a craft that emerges from the sea would need
"landing gear". Or at least why it would not have been retracted
prior to emerging from the sea.

What cries hoax most to me is in the first photo. I find it odd
that a civilization that could create a craft of its presumed
capabilities, would manufacture the craft with "windows" or
indentations which are out of line with the craft edges and the
other indentations.

The window most prominent in that first photo is seriously
"skewed" or rotated to the clockwise from the other "windows".
It looks decidedly "messed up".

My cursory (amateur) image analysis indicates several candidates
for "suspension lines", although an uncompressed original would
be required for any real analysis. Even mighty Photoshop CS
can't do much with a blocky jpeg enlargement.

While suspension is most often assumed to mean a single "string"
attached to the center of the object at one end and a fishing
pole or some such at the other, a much more valuable (read
anomalous) range of motion is attainable when the object is
suspended from a line or lines attached to a separate line which
is supported at each end. An earlier post supposed a mesh of
some sort... equally effective.

Imagine two people each holding a fishing pole. The line from
one is fed onto the reel of the other, and object or objects are
suspended from this "high wire". When either or both of the
poles are moved...taking up or letting out slack on the "high
wire"...in combination with the swinging of the object on its
own line, some truly odd motion can be induced in the suspended
object.

I believe the Billy Meier films/photos were done this way, among
many others.

This example just doesn't pass muster with me. Meier did a much
better job, and his stuff isn't convincing, either.


Kyle









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                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 19:19:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 09:25:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 12:25:11 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:19:40 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>Although you are clearly on a 'fishing expedition', I will
>>respond in depth to your inquiry.

>Mr Stanford,

>I merely was interested in your early writings in the UFO subject,
>as it seemed you have indeed made a major u-turn in your view
>on the UFO enigma.

As UFOs do from time to time. :) My U-turn wasn't quite as fast,
however.

>What was the Association for the Understanding of Man that was in
>the 70s, and your involvement?

The Association was incorporated and operated as a non-profit
organization dedicated to studying the reach of the human mind
(focusing primarily on parapsychology, with one of its research
directions trying to learn how far my unconscious mind could go
when working under suggestion, in answering questions about
which I had little or no conscious knowledge). They paid me a
salary as a research subject, but I never took money for
readings, per se.

Parapsychology was the organization's major thrust until some
members of the organization's Board of Directors got "saved" and
became rabidly fundamentalist Christians, declaring psychic
phenomena and psychic research to be the work of "the devil" --
 Sounding, ironically a little like CSICOP! :) -- and threw all
of the organization's publications in a dumpster, and declared
that anyone who studies UFOs might become subject to demon
possession, which of course meant me!

Yikes! :)

As to some of the things my readings dealt with, a good bit of
that has been covered on this list in the past, so please look
it up for yourself rather than ask me to once more load this
list with information that is not of direct relevance to UFO
studies. Then, after doing so, and you have any more questions,
if you will address them to me privately, I will try to find
time to answer, provided your questions appear honest and not
simply a 'fishing expedition'.

I will mention one UFO-related thing that was tried when I was
in the suggestible 'research reading' state. There is a taped
recording and a typed transcription of that 'reading' of mine at
which a good number of witnesses were present. Their names are
on record in the reading tape and its transcript, along with the
date and time. That night, in early November, of the year before
the great Michigan UFO flap the next spring, the people present
decided to try and find out whether my unconscious could
accurately predict the next major UFO "flap". They asked the
question and were told that we would learn of the next UFO flap
via the newspaper's headline announcing it, on the first day of
spring, the next year.

Anything vague or 'beating around the bush' about that answer?

Those present were fascinated because the response contained not
just one, but two predictions: (1), We would learn of it
precisely on the first day of spring the next year, and; (2) It
would be the headline of the local newspaper. That was the kind
of prediction they wanted because it was specific enough to be
easy to check, of course.

The months passed, and although I had been told what the
unconscious reading had predicted just after it was over, I
forgot about the prediction (I probably didn't even believe it
could come true.), until early on the first day of spring, the
next year, when I was awakened early by my phone ringing. It was
one of the persons who had witnessed the November reading,
shouting excitedly for me to get outside and get the morning
paper, but not telling me why the excitement. I ran out,
grabbed, and unrolled it, hoping a UFO had landed on the White
House lawn. But, sadly, all I saw was the big front-page
headline 'shouting' something like, "SAUCERS PLAGUE MICHIGAN
SKIES!"

My unconscious prediction had been specific, and in having been
specific, it was precisely correct. I can document that reading,
and its date, time, and the names of everyone present, which we
did with every reading.

Did we ever have any such UFO predictions that were wrong? No,
never. That can be documented, too, but UFO questions were
seldom asked.

Roy, please note: that prediction had not come from some "space
brother" claiming to talk through me. It had been given in my
own natural voice, which always claimed it was my unconscious,
attuning to the source of information toward which was directed
by the suggestion, as read to it by the "conductor" of the
reading.

>How many answers did you gain from Project Starlight International,
>regarding UFO visitations?

I don't know what you mean in asking, "How many answers..."
Please be more specific about what you ask. Also, I don't care
for the term "visitations" which seems rather 'loaded' term, if
you know what I mean.

Project Starlight International (Please don't confuse it with
Greer's Johnny-Come-Lately "Project Starlight", with which it
has neither association nor affinity.) has as its objective UFO
hard data monitoring and recording, and was begun in Phoenix,
Arizona, in 1964, but did not become loaded with good UFO
tracking instruments until 1973-74. If your question is what we
have learned from in-field studies of UFOs, then the answer is
far too extensive to provide here, and the answer expands as we
learn more from the hard evidence at hand.

I will begin releasing some of our evidences this autumn, in a
context known but yet to be announced, as I said in an earlier
posting. Please be patient. It will prove worth the wait.

>During the 60s and 70s, did you publish "psychic readings" which
>included discourses from a group of UFO-operating extraterrestrials
>called "The Watchers"?

I did not publish any of my psychic readings, but my employer,
the Association, did publish some of my readings that they
deemed would be helpful or inspirational to people. I don't
believe that anything ever said through me was from any
extraterrestrial, although I think there were a few readings
that were interpreted that way because of what the insights they
seemed to provide those present. Personally, I don't (and never
did) believe that UFO-related aliens were or are channeling
through anyone, and I feel sorry for the, IMO, gullible (if
well-meaning) people who believe such. Such messages are
generally, IMO, platitudes and B.S..

One of the reasons I quit giving 'readings', well before the
Christian fundamentalists took over the organization, was
because I grew more and more disgusted by the willingness of
what I called "reading thumpers" to believe any and everything
that was said through me in a 'reading'.

>Was all of the above, far past the days of Adamski, Mr Stanford?

Of course it was 'past Adamski days' for me, because my readings
from the unconscious state did not begin until I was at the ripe
old age 24. I had given a few semi-conscious readings in 1957,
just before going to Peru. I had dumped any belief in Adamski
before 1961. If anything has given you the idea that my psychic
research readings were in any way centered on "space brothers",
them you have been seriously misinformed. Frankly, I get the
feeling that your concept of me and what I was doing back then
is about as inaccurate as was George W. Bush was in saying the
U.S. was in imminent danger from weapons of mass destruction in
Iraq! And from the sound of things, I suspect that you have
accessed some deliberately flawed 'intelligence'. There is a bit
of it 'out there' and most of it was written about me by
fundamentalist Christians with a holier-than-thou axe to grind.

>>Of course, I'm sure my personal explanation of your recommended
>>book as containing only fake photos did not convince you, but
>>hopefully the information reported in Friday's posting to this
>>list by widely respected V-J Ballester Olmos, Director of
>>FOTOCAT, should have convinced you, unless, of course, this is a
>>religious instead of a scientific issue with you.

>Mr Stanford, I believe people have met Alien Beings from another
>world, in structurerd craft, something Science cannot begin to
>accept.

I don't care for the term "Alien Beings from another world", but
if you could generalize it to simply say 'non-terrestrials', I
might agree with you, and I know quite a number of good
scientists who might tend to agree.

>I have not claimed to have spoken with Jesus Christ or
>angels as such, so no ' not a religous subject for me.

Please believe me when I tell you (if that's what you're
implying that I believe) that I've conversed neither with J.C.,
nor with angels.

>One question about the book you called fake:

>Were all the pictures taken with the same camera?


?Quien sabe? Does it really matter, since they all are fake?
(See my posting just before this one, to Ed Gehrman, about that
disgusting book.)

If every mug of what looks like beer on a bar is really filled
with urine, why worry about whether all those mugs are of equal
size? :)

Now, what say we get back to UFOs (preferably real ones)?


Ray Stanford








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                 Analysis Of Centerville Ohio 'Tree Debris'

From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 19:59:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 09:28:08 -0400
Subject: Analysis Of Centerville Ohio 'Tree Debris'


Scientific Analysis Of Centerville, OH 'Tree Debris'

The results of a scientific examination of the March, 2004
Centerville, Ohio 'tree debris' by Analytical Scientist Phyllis
Budinger of Frontier Analysis, Ltd. are available at:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/frontier04.html

Thanks to Phyllis Budinger for permission to post this report,
and also for her volunteer time and effort for this inquiry.

Additional information regarding the Centerville UFO Incident of
March, 2004 is available from a new index page located at:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/centervilleindex.html








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                  Saucer-Like Object Seen Over Sweden 1953

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 13:31:08 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 09:34:30 -0400
Subject: Saucer-Like Object Seen Over Sweden 1953


"Saucer-Like Object Seen Over Sweden," 1953

The following article which I recently discovered may be sort of
a lesson in "the persistence of paradigms." At a time when many
people were thinking  "interplanetary" in regard to the origin
of UFOs, here is a report of a disc-shaped object observed over
Sweden in 1953,which was interpreted as a missile, in a
"flashback" to the "Ghost Rocket" sightings of several years
before.

Best,

Rod Brock
-------------

Oshkosh, Wisconsin, Oshkosh Daily Northwestern, December 18,
1953

Saucer-Like
Object Seen
Over Sweden

STOCKHOLM, Sweden (UP) -- Sweden's defense high command ordered
a full-scale investigation today into reports that a saucer-
 shaped object whirled across southern Sweden toward Russian-
 controlled territory at a speed faster than sound.

Capt. Ulf Christiernsson, Swedish airline pilot, alerted the
defense staff after he and his mechanic said they saw the
wingless, cir- cular object Thursday only 300 miles from the
Soviets' top-secret Baltic Sea rocket bases.

Christiernsson's report was made known only two days after the
au- thoratative "Jane's All the World's Aircraft" said Russia
has developed a rocket-powered planet for target defense.

Rush Investigation

The defense staff, which gov- erns Sweden's armed forces, rushed
the investigation. Gen. Bengt Norderskjold, air force com-
 mander, called in radar reports on all observations Thurday.

Christiernsson said he saw the object, which was believed to be
a missile, speeding over the town of Haessleholm in the main
commer- cial airlane between Stockholm and Copenhagen, Denmark.

A preliminary radar report in- dicated that heavy traffic in the
airlane prevented observers from deciding whethere
Christiernnson observed ordinary planes or an unidentified
missile.

As defense authorities awaited more complete radar reports, they
requested Christiernsson to submit detailed drawings of what he
said he had seen.

Production Stepped Up

Intelligence sources previously have estimated that Soviet
rocket production has been stepped up to 24,000 yearly.

Christiernsoon's postion at the time he reported seeing the
object was only minutes away from a closely guarded Soviet
installation on the Baltic Sea.

Swedish authorities believed So- viet jet fighters guarding the
Red installations shot down two un- armed Swedish air force
planes over the Baltic last year.

Christiernnson said he had never seen anything like the object
which he reported whizzed past his air-liner.

"It was entirely an unorthodox, metallic, symmetrical and
circular object," Christiernsson said. "I was not at all scared,
but curious, very curious."

Christiernsson said the object, which he believed to be a
missile, flew faster than sound about 5,000 feet above the
ground.

"I can give the altitude nearly exactly because it passed just
over the clouds and I saw it perfectly well," Christiernnson
said.

Christiernnson said the object headed southward over a low-lying
cloud layer which would obscure it from ground observers. He
said he watched it for about six seconds before it disappeared
in the direc- tion of East Germany's Baltic short, near the
former Nazi re- search station at Peenemunde, now
operated by the Russians.

------------

A virtual clipping of this article may be viewed at my website,
along with other historical articles:

http://embark.to/magonia
or
http://anomalies.bravepages.com



=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------








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                 What To Tell The Press & Public When Asked?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 17:46:29 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 10:06:01 -0400
Subject: What To Tell The Press & Public When Asked?


Often when we pitch a new movie or book we gather the best
presentation. It's usually 'just enough' to get the point
across.

I thought the same about Ufology. Often I'm pressed for time to
show someone the best information on the subject from the
various viewpoints.

I don't want to deluge someone who is new to the subject with
too much data, just the nuts and bolts.

So over the years I've whittled my product choices down to those
that have stood the test of time.

So for you guys who do the large public speaking, radio, tv
presentations and must refer to the works of other UFOlogists or
data what would you choose as a press package?

Those products that show the overall and best researched
products?


Thanks,

Greg








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             Re: Detecting UFOs Through 'Passive' Radar - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 22:58:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 14:07:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Detecting UFOs Through 'Passive' Radar - Shough


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 14:15:59 -0700
>Subject: Re: Detecting UFOs Through 'Passive' Radar

>>From: Peter B. Davenport - National UFO Reporting Center <director.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:19:45 -0700
>>Subject: Detecting UFOs Through The Use Of 'Passive' Radar

>Now this is interesting!

>I had considered possible 'passive radar' in the past, but I was
>thinking of receivers in synchronization with existing radars,
>rather than the possibility of bounced signals from ordinary
>radio and TV transmitters.

>That is new to me, and very intriguing. I see this would require
>some massive computing power, but not entirely out of reach
>given advances in hardware, and (gulp!) availability of the
>pertinent software.

>The software may come available somehow, but I presume some
>special receiving antenna apparatus would be needed. Would that
>be something like a rotating dish, or a flat fixed array, or
>something else again? This sounds like big bucks for the little
>guy.

If anyone's interested you can find info about the same sort of
technique which is already widely used in a semi-amateur fashion
for meteor detection. The antennas for VHF are relatively simple
affairs. Check meteor radar on the web.








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                    Disclosure Australia Announcement 16

From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 07:47:05 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 14:09:18 -0400
Subject: Disclosure Australia Announcement 16


Disclosure Australia Newsletter 15 has just been posted to the
Project website at:

http://disclosure.freewebpage.org

In this issue we present 15 pages of notes on our 18
hour examination of RAAF UFO files undertaken at
RAAF base Edinburgh, South Australia.

--
The Australian UFO  Research
Network disclosure project

Auspiced by the
Australian UFO Research Network
PO Box 738, Beaudesert,
Queensland 4285
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn

Secretariat: the
Australian UFO Research Association
PO Box 786, North Adelaide,
South Australia 5006
http://disclosure.freewebpage.org/







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                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 22:53:02 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 14:11:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Allan


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 19:01:25 -0300
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 14:41:56 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>Others have said that anybody could have found out from the
>Truman Library that WB Smith's only meeting with Truman over a
>several month period was the 01 August , 1950, date noted in the
>EBD. But did they? I asked the TL if anybody else had asked for
>dates of their meetings. The answer was NO. In other words could
>have, might have, etc, are not the same as did.

>Stan Friedman

Is this supposed to prove nobody could have found the Aug,1,
1950 date, unless he were an insider?

The forger had no need to ask the library archivist for dates of
the Truman-Smith meetings. He simply requested the Truman
appointments for, say, June 1949 to Nov. 1950. He did the
research himself, discovered the August 1, 1950 meeting and
found that it was the only such meeting for the period in
question. He then inserted that date in the Ike briefing memo.
This would have been long before you visited the library.

Thus no insider was involved.

There must be numerous historians who used the Truman diaries
for this period. No archivist could possibly remember which of
them did what, nor would the library disclose the names of
previous visitors (unless by police or court order I presume).


CDA








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                   Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed - Taylor

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:02:52 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 15:23:13 -0400
Subject: Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed - Taylor


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:32:04 -0500
>Subject: Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed

>>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon,2 Aug 2004 14:13:12 -0500
>>Subject: Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed

>>>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 17:41:20 +1000
>>>Subject: More Daytime UFOs Videoed

>>>http://theozfactor.nucleardays.com/ufo-16july2004.htm

>>Gotta get an optical zoom.That digital zoom stuff is just awful,
>>and "enhancing" those little smeared-out pixels really doesn't
>>help. Optical is the only way to go.

>Optical zoom would have resulted in a mundane photo of a mylar
>balloon cluster. Where's the fun in that? :)

Digital zoom is only used momentarily to see if anything useful
can be salvaged from the digital zoom images. Sometimes
something can. The greater part of the footage is in full
optical zoom X40. This is camera max.

As far as your comment of " Mylar balloons" I find ridiculous.
You must be of the opinion that if a UFO is not disc shaped it
must be a balloon. Well hey, wake up to the fact that these
objects are genuine UFOs.

I do not know what a person has to do to demonstrate this fact
other then try to video them when these events are happening,
then present the evidence for you viewing. If for one moment I
thought they were 'Mylar balloons', I would not waste my time on
it.

If you continually blatantly 'debunk' the genuine UFO footage
Kyle, you will never learn anything about the subject. Maybe
this is not you aim. Others with knowledge on the subject and
willingness to advance by learning what is being caught on
video, will advance in leaps and bounds. Some are.

It is 'simple research' just to sit back and blindly comment on
something your are inexperienced in, when others are out there on
the 'front line' doing the hard yards in gathering evidence. We
know what side of the fence you are on.

I hope you can learn to 'look before you leap' next time Kyle,
it is much more rewarding.


Barry Taylor








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                Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 01:25:39 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 15:26:26 -0400
Subject: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes


http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/378/13614_aliens.html

Seems like Pravda is just chock full of paranormal stories
nowadays.

This one is about an investigation into large anomalous holes
some believed caused by UFOs.

A more prosaic explanation follows but still leaves a question
or two.

This reminds me that since the Soviet Union collapsed shouldn't
their former top secret UFO information have come to light by
now? Why is it every country on Earth seems to have an equally
effective 'hush up' campaign or am I wrong on this?

Considering how conflicting ideologies are amongst nations
you'ld figure by now our enemies would have figured out the way
to bring down the U.S.A. would be to put out as much UFO/Alien
information they could.

I guess the 'evil terrorist empires' we're supposed to be afraid
of haven't caught on to that one yet.


Best,

Greg








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                 Re: Detecting UFOs Through 'Passive' Radar

From: Peter Davenport - NUFORC <director.nul>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:57:59 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 15:39:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Detecting UFOs Through 'Passive' Radar


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 14:15:59 -0700
>Subject: Re: Detecting UFOs Through 'Passive' Radar

>>From: Peter B. Davenport - NUFORC <director.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:19:45 -0700
>>Subject: Detecting UFOs Through The Use Of 'Passive' Radar

>>To the List:

>>I have posted to the NUFORC website the paper I wrote for the
>>MUFON Symposium in Denver earlier this month. It pertains to the
>>remote detection of UFOs through the use of 'passive' radar.

>>In addition, I copy below some links to URLs, which discuss the
>>issue of passive radar:

<snip>

>Hello Peter:

>Now this is interesting!

>I had considered possible 'passive radar' in the past, but I was
>thinking of receivers in synchronization with existing radars,
>rather than the possibility of bounced signals from ordinary
>radio and TV transmitters.

>That is new to me, and very intriguing. I see this would require
>some massive computing power, but not entirely out of reach
>given advances in hardware, and (gulp!) availability of the
>pertinent software.

>The software may come available somehow, but I presume some
>special receiving antenna apparatus would be needed. Would that
>be something like a rotating dish, or a flat fixed array, or
>something else again? This sounds like big bucks for the little
>guy.

>I read most of the URLs provided (not the .pdf which is a mess
>for me) and it appears that this is being taken seriously.

>I like the stealth feature, no special radar beams, just ambient
>commercial transmitters etc. Like other ufo detection devices
>(magnetic anomaly sensors etc.) there remains the issue of
>'false positives. Hopefully, the advanced software would reduce
>those.

>If more develops from this, I'm sure others would like to hear
>about it.


To Ray, Larry, Kyle, Eleanor, and Errol:

Thank you all for the thoughtful comments, and thank you, Errol,
for the radio time on July 31st to discuss the "passive" system
I have proposed!

I commend Larry for his perspicacity on the matter of using
reflected ambient radar/radio transmissions, and I have stumbled
upon a handful of others who have ruminated along similar lines.
Jim Klotz, of the Computer UFO Network (www.cufon.org) is
another who was thinking along the same lines, and it was he who
provided me with some interesting information about top secret
symposia during the 1960's and '70's held on the subject of
"passive" radar. Obviously, Jim was thinking about the possible
application of "passive" detection when he requested the
materials through an FOIA request.

Frankly, I am more than just mildly surprised that no one put
forth the proposal years ago, since the CONCEPT of "passive"
radar seems rather simple, in my opinion. (Interestingly, the
first patent for a "passive" application of radar was applied
for, I'm told by an authority on the matter, in London in
1927!!) Even the construction is not a complex matter, as
witnessed by the relative simplicity of the systems that already
are in operation. It's the actual OPERATION of a "passive"
system that requires considerable resource, it turns out.

The only "hurdle" in the past to our building such a system has
been the computational power required...a minimum of about 10
giga-operations per second for a single station, operated on a
real-time basis. It has been only during the last several years
that such computer capability has been available to the average
consumer. However, a multi-static system requires considerably
more computer capability, since the number of computer
operations required...for real-time coverage...goes up
approximately geometrically, I'm guessing, with the number of
receiver stations in use. Since three-dimensional Doppler
analysis requires at least three receivers, real-time coverage
requires some rather hefty number-crunching capability.

However, for our purposes, during the early stage of the
project, real-time coverage is not necessary. We can collect
data sets for a period of time, and then analyze the data after
the fact. All we have to do is show that there are objects in
the near-Earth environment that do not fit the characteristics
of satellites, meteors, the ionosphere, migratory birds, crash
dummies, swamp gas, etc.. Once we have such data in hand, we
will have some rather powerful evidence, I believe, as to the
existence of, and apparently real nature of, UFO's.

This is a project I first proposed in January 1995, and no one
took notice...save for Mark Cashman, then SD for Connecticut,
who sent me an article on the subject. I then "formalized" my
proposal by publishing an article in the November 1999 issue of
the MUFON Journal. Frankly, I expected to be bowled over with
response...but nothing, absolutely nothing...from the
readership!! Finally, ten weeks after the issue had been
delivered to everyone's mailbox, I received a note of interest
from Richard Vitello, MUFON member from Indiana (??), and a ham
operator, about the proposed system. I received no other
queries!!

Karla's suggestion of mobile units is an attractive one, but the
system I have proposed is not yet built, and we first have to
learn to "crawl," before we will be able to "walk" with it.
However, given what the GPS system, combined with wireless
internet, permits, her proposal is not out of the question.
However, I must add that I don't believe that there are UFO
"hotspots" that would deserve special coverage. Moreover, given
that the system might be able to detect a disc 10-meters in
diameter out to the distance that the Moon is from the Earth,
the issue of the location of a UFO, relative to a point on the
surface of the Earth, really is a moot point. Also, the first
system will be tailored for detecting targets that are tens,
hundreds, or thousands of miles above the Earth's surface, not
close to the ground.

I have assembled a small team of electrical engineers,
physicists, and computer types to assist in the construction of
the first system. The team is being "counseled" by a person who
is a specialist in the field, and who already has built a
"passive" system, so the current manpower needs for building the
first system are satisfied, at least as things stand now.

What I foresee for the project is a network of perhaps half a
dozen stations, which will feed into a common website. I would
like to see the operation of the stations in the hands of the
various major UFO organizations, all of which will feed their
"hits" to a common website. Hence, anyone on the web will have
access to accurate, objective data regarding detection of
UFO's...absent the need for eyewitness accounts, which I
consider to be the "weak link" of ufology. I suspect most of us
would agree on the latter point.

The greatest satisfaction I think I will derive from the
project, if it is successful, is that it removes the virtual
monopoly on "hard" data that governments presently enjoy in the
realm of ufology. To no less a degree, I revel in the thought
that ufology might "scoop" the SETI project in showing that
there is other intelligent life in our galaxy...and that it
appears to visit our planet on a regular basis. In fact, I find
it difficult to believe that my proposal has not already been
circulated around their offices in Menlo Park, and that it isn't
already causing the generation of above-average levels of
stomach acid there...


Regards,

Peter
--
Peter B. Davenport, Director
National UFO Reporting Center
P. O. Box 45623
University Station
Seattle, WA 98145
E-Mail: director.nul
Web:   www.UFOCENTER.com
Reporting Hotline: (206) 722-3000










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                 Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 02:42:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 15:44:20 -0400
Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - King


>From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:25:06 -0400
>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

<snip>

>Speaking of good photos, isn't it interesting how many UFO
>videos in the past 15 years seem to display a similar object?
>Seems that I have viewed countless amateur videos of UFOs with
>what appears to be a fuzzy ball of mercury suspended in air and
>constantly changing shape from spherical to oblong to ellipsoid,
>etc. Some kind of interference always surrounds this object and
>prevents a good crisp image. I don't believe this type of UFO
>was often caught on film prior to 1980.

Erik,

One good reason that your "balls of mercury" weren't very common
before 1980 could be that silvered mylar helium balloons weren't
common before then, either.

Also interesting how many photos of "silver mercury blobs" are
taken at or near air shows, amusement parks, and other places
where...true, lots of people have cameras and are looking at the
sky, but... novelty helium balloons are readily available and
often lost.


Kyle







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                         Re: Close-Up Photos - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 04:19:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 15:55:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - King


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:05:08 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 12:56:52 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:51:45 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>><snip>

>>>Please don't 'shoot the messenger', but those are among the
>>>most obviously fake 'UFO' photos I've ever seen, showing small
>>>models evidently suspended on transparent nylon lines, and quite
>>>close to the camera.

>>There is also evidence of cross hatching in the last photo. It
>>looks as though the hoaxer used some form of broad nylon
>>netting-the edges fixed offscreen to poles perhaps - on which
>>were attached the models. If in photo 3 the two lines seen were
>>explained away as contrails then their reflection onto the
>>clouds below would show up as dark streaks, which would be the
>>contrail's shadow.

>Thanks, Don,

>Yes, I noticed that but did not mention it because I did not
>know if that 'cross hatching' might be an effect of some kind of
>optical or digital copying, or a combination thereof. But, yes,
>it looks very suspicious.


Don & Ray,

A brief look with Photoshop CS... admittedly using a compressed
digital version of photo 1... reveals what appear to be at least
two vertical "threads" extending up from two points
approximately 1/4 of the way in from the right and left edges.
Further, these two vertical "threads" appear to terminate in the
photo, where a very distinct horizontal "thread" also appears.
While there is definitely "artifact" in the image from the JPG
compression, these features are uninterrupted in appearance,
unlike the artifact geometry which has a more random patchwork
appearance. The threads I note do not appear to be part of a
"mesh", but perhaps it is so.

Aside from the crooked window and rather "antique" look, a
higher- resolution copy is necessary for a decent image
analysis. This "corpse" is too decomposed for a decent
"autopsy".

My preliminary glance provides ample doubt, and based on that
and comments by you two, I have to file this one as probable
hoax in the absence of a better quality image(s). Even so, my
gut screams hoax.


Kyle








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                         Re: Varginha Again - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 05:52:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:03:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Sparks


>From: A. J. Gevaerd  - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 22:45:25 -0300
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 23:13:27 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

<snip>

>>If we were supposed to be scientifically inclined, why, I
>>wonder... without strong data, only with some witnesses and a
>>"doctor" stories did we assume the E.T. hypothesis?

>Please review the info about the Varginha Case. You will easily
>find out that there is an amazing and overwhelming amount of
>data to stress out the alien and the craft=B4s debris as non-
>terrestrial.

>The "Doctor" report is one of great value to the
>research of the case and to the entire Ufology field. When have
>we ever heard of someone involved in the health area to claim
>with such certainty to have had an alien creature in his
>hospital? Plus, he wasn=B4t alone with the creature and his
>feelings about its nature were shared with other professionals.

A.J.,

I'm still waiting to see _any_ medical scientific data
supposedly transmitted by the "Doctor" to another MD
"professional."   None has been provided.  There was a claim by
the "Doctor" that he had tested the "tensile strength" of the
creature's protruding broken bone. As tensile strength is
determined by stretching till it breaks this would be a
violation of a medical doctor's Hippocratic Oath and would be
grounds for revoking his license to practice medicine in most
civilized countries.  We don't even treat animals that way.
 Such a bizarre and cruel test, inflicting great pain, would
surely also have upset the soldiers allegedly guarding the
creature, who would surely have prevented the "Doctor" from
carrying out such a procedure.


Brad Sparks







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                Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 06:26:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:04:27 -0400
Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Sparks


>From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:25:06 -0400
>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:28:18 EDT
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:03:11 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

<snip>

>>>All else being equal, I think the
>>>responsibility rests on the persons yelling "fraud" to
>>>provide evidence for their accusations.

>>No sorry that's not how it works. UFO cases have to go through
>>competent scientific-technical screening (Hynek Screening) and
>>investigation first before they can really be considered
>>legitimate "UFO" cases instead of indeterminate status. UFO
>>photographs are no exception.

>Where exactly does one obtain the necessary accreditation to
>perform the "competent scientific-technical screening" that is
>required? And who "enforces" such a requirement? I was not aware
>(after 40 years of observation) that the phrase "UFO
>Investigator" actually carried with it a mandatory requirement
>of scientific competence.

I'm just using Hynek's wording in his classic textbook of UFO
research, The UFO Experience (1972).  It is not the
accreditation that counts but the competence of the effort,
which is why Hynek used the word "technical" so he would not be
saying that only Ph.D. scientists can conduct the screening.
 The "enforcement" is just like the way any investigation in
science is "enforced."  If you do a bad job you get exposed.
 May not work perfectly but that's the system.

>What's more, exactly what purpose continues to be served by
>performing the same "investigations" into the same sightings
>year after dreary year? Anyone reading even a small fraction of
>the available sighting evidence these past 60 years would have
>to have a serious mental pathology not to believe that non-human
>unknown aerial phenomena occur on a regular basis throughout the
>world.  Continued "investigations" of "strange lights in the
>night sky" would seem to be pointless unless there is a new or
>unusual element to the event.

No one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to perform the
"same investigations year after year."  But there are people in
the UFO field who do want to do a good job of data collection.
 Personally I think there has been an over-emphasis on data to
the detriment of not doing enough theory development, and I have
posted a lot on that subject here lately.  I also think that
civilian cases just are not as good as many of the military
cases, such as those in the AF files, where the military
routinely can apply technical assets and instruments to UFO
observations that most civilians do not have available to them.
 That is why I have been working steadily on a Comprehensive
Catalog of Project Blue Book Unknowns, which has been posted on
several websites.  These include fairly detailed descriptions of
each case.

The cases in the military files are far more significant than
the "lights in the sky" cases you refer to as "pointless."

>Perhaps I am just getting old and cynical but, when it comes to
>UFO's, the only current "investigations" that hold much interest
>are those with good photos. Quality photographic evidence offers
>the only realistic possibility of shedding new light on the
>physical reality of UFO's.  Testimonial evidence has taken us
>nowhere for 30 years at least. Until we capture one or it
>voluntarily presents itself for inspection, good photos are our
>best bet for significantly upgrading our understanding of the
>phenomenon.

You may be mixing three different issues here (1) what is
"interesting" to you and others, (2) what is scientifically
useful for "shedding light' on the nature of the UFO phenomenon,
and (3) what is "testimonial" proof of UFO "reality."

Except for a few cases where UFO photos may reveal ionization
phenomena as Ray Stanford has tried to emphasize, the vast
majority of "UFO" photos just do not offer much if any
scientifically useful data.  The vast majority are not even
screened or investigated to take them out of a holding status
(indeterminate), to justify classification as "UFO's."  Most
such photos do not even have witness data.  Photos do not "speak
for themselves" and must have witness testimony to back them up
with when, where, why they were taken, etc.

But again I would argue that civilian efforts simply cannot
compete with the vast array of technical instrument resources
the military and government has at hand.

Just look at the way the Mexican FLIR video incident of March 5,
2004, has almost revolutionized the way a UFO case can be
investigated because of the vast wealth of GPS, time, and angular
coordinate data with some radar and visual data that is available.

>Speaking of good photos, isn't it interesting how many UFO
>videos in the past 15 years seem to display a similar object?
>Seems that I have viewed countless amateur videos of UFO's with
>what appears to be a fuzzy ball of mercury suspended in air and
>constantly changing shape from spherical to oblong to ellipsoid,
>etc. Some kind of interference always surrounds this object and
>prevents a good crisp image. I don't believe this type of UFO
>was often caught on film prior to 1980.

Sounds like Mylar party balloons which have become popular in
the last 20 years or so.

Brad Sparks







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                        Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:04:06 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:07:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd


>From: Brenda Denzler <denzlerb.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 19:01:31 -0400
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 21:10:13 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

<snip>

>>Does no one have a sense of humor around here? It was just a
>>joke; a play on words: the similarity in spelling (and possibly
>>pronunciation) betweenVarginha and Vagina.

>For A.J. I think the problem is the cultural divide. It's an
>English-language, U.S.-comprehensible pun.

>I snickered!


Dear Brenda.

I understand the language problem... As a matter of fact, I am
still trying to understand many English expressions. Despite the
fact that I have been in the US dozens of times, I still have
the language problem. Some of my lectures sounded very strange
indeed. As some of my interviews. Ask Errol.....

In my first visit to US, back in 1989, I guess, I spent a week
at Wendelle Stevens=B4 home in Tucson. After 4 or five days of
long endless conversations with Wendelle, which I thought he was
understanding my talk, he finally got courage and said: "Hey,
A.J., I get to honest with you. I don=B4t understand a word you're
saying". Then we both laughed for half-hour. That was when I
realized that I should improve my English.


A. J.








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                        Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:09:02 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:09:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 22:25:21 -0300
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 23:13:27 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

<snip>

>I heard a lot of the first discussions about the Varginha case
>way back in 1996 when I was in Curitiba, Brazil, for a UFO
>conference. Graham Birdsall, John Carpenter and I interviewed
>Vitorio Pacaccini ( he speaks English well) on camera and John
>made a 113 minute video from the interview and the other
>materials provided at that time. The Brazilian press also took
>the case quite seriously and there were many different witnesses
>. Graham did a big article for UFO magazine and Dr. John Mack,
>working with the help of an interpreter, was also favorably
>impressed with the girls who witnessed the strange beings.

>Frankly, I am not at all ready to dismiss this case. I can't see
>any connection with the fierce chupacabra. These beings were
>scared, not aggressive.


Dear Stan:

You gave a very accurate report about Varginha. Most people outside Brazil
have very little knowledge of how deep the case is and how well investigated
and well documented it was. Over 40 good UFO researchers took part in the
"joint venture" investigations, that at some point was added by some very
fine Brazilian newsmen. From these UFO researchers, at least 10 are the top
ones in my country. They have managed to get on the spots where the case
took place just hours and days after the happenings, getting the witnesses=
=B4
reports still very fresh. It includes some of the military.

New and astounding revelations are to be released very soon. Very, very
amazing ones.

A. J.








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               Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:47:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:10:56 -0400
Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Stanford


>From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:25:06 -0400
>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:28:18 EDT
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

<snip>

>Speaking of good photos, isn't it interesting how many UFO
>videos in the past 15 years seem to display a similar object?
>Seems that I have viewed countless amateur videos of UFO's with
>what appears to be a fuzzy ball of mercury suspended in air and
>constantly changing shape from spherical to oblong to ellipsoid,
>etc. Some kind of interference always surrounds this object and
>prevents a good crisp image. I don't believe this type of UFO
>was often caught on film prior to 1980.HI Erik,

Hi Erik,

Your description, above, of a large part of  UFO videos taken in
recent years sounds very  much like what one might video of a
tinseled Mylar balloon blowing in the wind and tumbling.  Wind
direction changes?  Well, most people would be surprised at the
wind-direction changes across some areas where we are talking
about within a thousand feet or so of the ground. I've watched
quite a few of such balloons (accidentally 'escaped' from little
kiddies in our local mall parking lot), and low-level winds are
often surprisingly 'meandering'.

Anyhow, note that it was around the year you mention as the
beginning of that type video, that so many of the helium-
inflated tinseled Mylar balloons began to be sold at everything
from grocery stores to gift kiosks in the malls.  Purely
coincidence, or...?

I suggest that if the thing looks as you described, we must be
very cautious.  Those balloons come in almost every imaginable
shape these days, from UFO-like shapes to dinosaurs and even
dogs.  I suggest people have a look at such merchandise in a
large store of party supplies, as I have done. It is surprising
what resemblances one could see floating around in the skies
these days, especially in metropolitan areas.


Ray Stanford








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                         Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 07:47:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:12:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:16:52 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>While suspension is most often assumed to mean a single "string"
>attached to the center of the object at one end and a fishing
>pole or some such at the other, a much more valuable (read
>anomalous) range of motion is attainable when the object is
>suspended from a line or lines attached to a separate line which
>is supported at each end. An earlier post supposed a mesh of
>some sort... equally effective.

I've always been a fan of using large panes of glass or some
other transparent material.They've heavy, and there are
reflection problems you have to worry about, but it does
eliminate that annoying string.

A more expensive but infinitely better solution is to create an
actual 8-meter diameter flying saucer, a dirigible light enough
to float with helium and send it up. No strings, no
reflections. You can even show it landed. Pose a few phoney
but realistic-looking aliens around it and voy-lah! Instant
CE-III.

Funny nobody's gone to those lengths yet (as far as we know).







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                          Re: ETH Modeling - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:16:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:14:38 -0400
Subject: Re: ETH Modeling - Clark


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 18:42:29 EDT
>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 23:15:35 -0700
>>Subject: ETH Modeling

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:13:43 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>Thanks Jim, just what I was looking for, though please note that
>the context of my request was that as I have been saying all
>along, the SETI community (such as Fogg in Icarus) has been
>publishing models of ETH but that the UFO community has not, or
>has only very isolated instances that are not cumulatively built
>upon, so I would be "delighted" to find some overlooked "body of
>literature" by the UFO community attempting to model ETH in a
>testable quantitative way, as Jerry seemed to imply or allude to
>existing somewhere.

Well, Swords's work, as I've stated explicitly several times.

More important, however, a question:

Where exactly in the SETI literature has someone written that he
or she would take the UFO question seriously if ufologists
proposed a model of the ETH such as you demand?I have read all
sorts of anti-UFO arguments, none especially cogent, in that
literature; but if one mounts an argument like yours, I haven't
seen or heard of it. My not-uninformed impression is that for
the SETI types, the lack of modeling is not the reason for their
refusal to consider UFO evidence, and you're advancing a
criticism of ufology that not even the standard debunking
critics advance.


Jerry Clark








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                          Filer's Files #33 -- 2004

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul>
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 11:41:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:33:46 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #33 -- 2004


Filer's Files #33 -- 2004, Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern
Vice President of Skywatch International
August 4, 2004, Webmaster: Chuck Warren --


Discs Return

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. These Files make the assumption that
extraterrestrial intelligent life exists. Perseids - May Cause
Damage, Mars - Petroglyphs and Writing, New Jersey - Disc, West
Virginia - Sphere, Georgia - Sphere, Alabama - Egg Filmed,
Florida - Three Discs in Hanger, Wisconsin - Cigars,Mississippi
- Tubular Shining UFO, Indiana - UFO on ABC Sports Show,
Illinois - Bright Flashing and Pulsating Light, Texas Orbs,
Arizona - Round Orange Orb, California - Disc, Oregon - V
Formation of Lights, Washington - Spheres, Canada =E2=80=93
Discs and a Flying Triangle, UK/England - Triangle of Three
Orange Lights, Malaysia - Star Shape Moving Object, Solomon
Islands - UFOs,and New Zealand =E2=80=93 Egg Shaped Craft.

Perseids - May Cause Damage

On August 11, 2004, at about 21h UT, the onerevolution dust
trail of the Perseids parent comet Swift-Tuttle is calculated to
pass within 0.0013 AU from the Earth's orbit.&nbs=

We should have mainly visually dim meteors and shooting stars.
The Earth may pass through the dense core of the Perseid
meteoroid stream. Observation should be good throughout the
night. There is a possibility that larger meteoroids will brake
through the atmosphere.

Mars - Petroglyphs

During my recent speaking engagement we visited a Hopi Indian
Store in Arizona, where it was explained the Hopi's came from
another planet. Their ancient petroglyphs depict a triangular
shaped craft with an apparent propulsion system. Aliens or Hopi
Indians can be seen inside the ship, and making a landing near
other Hopi Indians.

Eduardo Vieira de Lucena of Paraiba, Brazil writes, "I think
there is a creature beside the black rock on these photos. The
Rover Opportunity photos on Sol 87 and Sol 88 show a creature
with strange legs or tentacles and a possible face. - links:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/088/1P135996755EFF1413P2285L2M1.h
tml

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/087/1P135902321EFF1409P2433R2M1.h
tml

Note: There are also heirglyphics or writing on many of the
rocks and possibly a face on the dark rocks.

There are similar petroglyphson Mars that seem to depict writing
or symbols. Note T, P, Y, I, A, I, and V like symbols below.
This is a JPL image taken by the Opportunity Rover of Burns
Cliff inside Endurance Crater. I'm looking for anyone with
expertise of ancient writing.

Engineer Norman M. Bryden has studied Mars Images for twenty
years and has an excellent knowledge of the planet and the
technology behind the images. He believes that there are
extraterrestrial structures and vegetation on Mars. This image
has vegetation and a stream. New data indicates the surface of
Mars in the summer reaches temperatures as high as 97 degrees.
Image thanks to JPL and Norman M. Bryden.

New Jersey - Large Disc

SURF CITY - I was notified personally concerning this sighting
from a professional who has long denied the possible existence
of =UFOs. She was talking with a group of friends at 1 AM in a
gazebo overlooking the Atlantic Ocean, on August 1, 2004. She
looked out over the ocean and to the left of the full moon and
noticed a large disc shaped object with three rings of lights
one above the other running parallel to each other. Each row of
lights had about twenty lights similar to a commercial aircraft
surrounding what seemed to be a disc. The craft was flying to
the north of her location towards the Barnegat Lighthouse. The
disc wobbled as it descended on a maneuvering course towards the
lighthouse. Many similar UFO reports have accumulated through
the years anda book was written concerning these sightings. The
craft appeared quite largeand had multiple parallel lights
similar to a three decked ship. The sighting is notable by this
witness since she has always strongly ridiculed the conceptof
UFOs in the past.

West Virginia - Sphere

WHEELING -- It was sunny day and the observer was walking down
town, when he happened to look up at the sky on July 21,
2004</SPAN>, at 6:15 PM. There were two spherical objects just
gliding (floating) side by side. They would slow down and speed
up. And when one would get too far away from the other, it would
stop until the other one would catch up. It seemed like they
were attached together by a string. I know they were pretty
small because at that time a low flying jet passed by and they
were about as big as its cockpit. This lasted a good while. But
then I lost themin the clouds. Perhaps they weather balloons or
something else? Thanks to Peter Davenport
Directorwww.UFOCenter.com



Wisconsin - Cigar<BR style=3D"mso-special-character: line-break">

LACROSSE - The witnesses saw a cigar shaped object flying so
slow they thought it was going to stall. The cigar was high up
but they could tell it was tubular, without wings and no tail.
The object was moving northwest to southeast. After about a
minute it passed by a jet flying eastto west at a higher
elevation. The jet made a complete turn and flew in the same
direction as the "blimp" and seemed like he was chasing it. So
they got their binoculars. The witness states, "Sure enough this
three lighted thing with the lights rotating flew over =our
heads at about 1000 feet heading northwest to southeast. I used
to fly airplanes, and this whole thing was really weird so I
called up my Mom who was driving home and was located between
Lacrosse and Sparta. She, also, saw a craft that got her
attention because it seemed to have no wings. Thanks to Scott
and Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Alabama - Egg Filmed

SOUTH ALABAMA  -- Yesterday morning (July 26, 2004) the witness
went outside to get uniforms from his car and noticed a ball of
light in the sky at 5:20AM. After getting his uniform he noticed
the odd hovering light and also realized there was not a single
star visible in the overcast sky. He grabbed his camera and
tripod, stepped out on the deck and took three shotsof the
object, and then went back inside to get ready for work. When he
left for work at 6:30 AM, the object was gone. Later he
downloaded the pictures and found an unidentified object in the
images. The full size pictures are 2048 x 1536. Thanks to Brian
Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Pictures can be viewed at:
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&si
d=3D1643=

Georgia - Sphere

ATLANTA -- The witness reports, "This sighting was similar to my
encounter a few days ago, only that each craft moved in
completely different directions. The first one was a star-like
looking object with a one second interval flash very similar to
the fourth craft I saw a few days ago. It moved fairly slowfrom
south to north. The second one was identical without a flash and
moved fromwest to east. The third was identical in appearance,
except it moved freely wherever it wanted. It started from the
south and strayed towards the northwest zigzagging a few times.
This time my girlfriend was with me as opposed to my last
encounter. She witnessed two of the three craft. I'm sure it's
still continuing because I saw three within ten minutes at 9:50
PM on July 23, 2004." Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com


Florida - Three Discs in Hanger

U.S. AIR FORCE BASE (UNIDENTIFIED) The Air Force witness claims
that he met an airman in North Dakota when he was based there in
1970, who told him that his uncle who owned a drill company in
Florida was asked by USAF to come to the base with the best
drills he had. He was taken to a hanger on one of the airbases,
and there were three saucer like craft inside. He was asked to
drill into one of them and he tried with his best equipment. He
said, "He drilled in one spot for about 15 minutes, and there
was no sign of any marks where the drill had been working. No
heat or color change no nothing. I never saw the airman again.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director

Editor's Note: Numerous similar stories were told to me while I
was on active duty in the Air Force, whenever I would ask about
UFOs. I met several maintenance personnel who claimed they were
given pieces of metal with hieroglyphics on them from alleged
alien craft to drill or cut. Even though the metal was very
light and bendable, it was virtually indestructible.</P>

Indiana - Changing

LOGANSPORT -- At first the witnesses thought it was a bright
star, but then it got bigger and brighter, disappeared and then
a yellowish color at 9 PM on July 23, 2004. Theobject lit up
like a banana shaped star, then got brighter and bigger. Then
all the sudden disappeared and just as fast, a banana shape
light appeared then quickly disappeared. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Indiana - UFO on ABC Sports Show -- On Saturday morning, July
17, 200, around8:45-9:15 (Indianatime) my brother and I
were watching the British Open live on TV. They where doing a
close up interview with Mark Calavecchia the 1989 open champion.
Mark is sitting on the right hand side of the screen with white
blue sky and some cloud cover to his right. At the end of the
interview you see a bright white orb (UFO) fly horizontally from
behindMark going from right to left and then arc up thru the
clouds and out of the picture. What is amazing about this is the
speed at which this objectis moving. It was moving so fast that
my brother did not see it until I replayed it and showed him the
object. I feel vary strongly that ABC video taped a UFO live on
TV. Thanks to Brian Vike www.hbccufo.com

Illinois - Bright Flashing and Pulsating Light

CHICAGO -- Around 1 AM, on July 25, 2004, theobserver was
sitting on his back porch and noticed a thick cloud with a
pulsating and flashing light coming from it. He continued to
watch and knew it wasn't lightening or a star or anything
normal. There was no sound. He kept looking and saw eight to
nine objects in perfect alignment with one another circling the
main light that was pulsating from the thick cloud. These
smaller objects flew into the lighted area and disappeared.
After three minutes the cloud wasn't there eitherThanks to Peter
Davenport Director www.hbccufo.com

Mississippi - Tubular Shining UFO

PICAYUNE - On July 27, 2004, at about 7:55 PM, the witness
noticed the moon directly in front of him at sunset, even though
the sky was still light from the setting sun. He was walking
directly toward the moon, when two objects caught his attention.
One was larger, oblong, or tubular, and shining silvery, moving
high up, in an even line smoothly and swiftly goingin a
southwest direction. The other which seemed similarly shaped,
was a little =higher or appeared smaller, was criss-crossing
going in the opposite direction. Two more women came out to the
parking lot, and one lady said, "Do you see that?" "It's a UFO."
I agreed. As we watched the larger one going southwest glowed a
bright silvery color as it neared the sunset reflection and
shortly afterwards disappeared. The three of us saw and came to
the same conclusion that these were not airplanes. The larger of
the two had to be pretty large since it was visible for at least
seven minutes, and we had no trouble seeing it as it moved from
us. When the sunset reflected off it, we were assured that would
not happen on an airplane at that height. It appeared to reflect
the sunset, while the rest of the sky was blue/grey and the
western sky was colored. New Orleans is southwest of where the
larger one appeared headed. This was my first sighting of this
type of object. The lady said it was hers too. Thanks to Brian
Vike, Director www.hbccufo.com

Texas - Orbs

DALLAS -- The witness was sitting on my front porch about 2:30
PM, on July 20, 2004, when two orbs flew over his house coming
from the north going south. The witness quickly grabbed his
camera and shotsome video. He states, "I didn't hear anything as
they passed, and the top part of the frame is the eave of the
house, sorry about the dirt specks on the lens: Thanks to Brian
Vike, Director

Arizona - Round Orange Orb

SCOTTSDALE -- On his way home onJuly 20, 2004,the witness saw a
round orange orb in the sky that remained stationary for two
minutes before fading out at 9:52 PM. This was witnessedat 105th
Street and McDowell Mountain Ranch Road toward the southwest
sky. There was other airplanes in the sky, but none were around
the object. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

California - Disc

HANFORD-- Three roommates observed a red tint spinning dome
shaped object hovering in the sky at 2 AM, on July 22, 2004. The
disc had a white pulsating light emanating from it and made no
sound. It was spinning rapidly, yet it wasn't moving much. After
aboutten minutes it slowly began moving away from us. During
this time we noticed aircraft scrambling from the Lemoore Naval
Base towards the object. Within the next ten minutes we lost
sight of it. The total duration of the sighting was twenty
minutes. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

PALM SPRINGS - The witness saw a flashing colored orb in the
eastern sky over the San Jacinto Mountains on July 19, 2004.
Thewitness awoke to use the restroom around 2:30 AM, and was
taken aback by a large white "light" that was literally
illuminating the bathroom. The light was very close to the
eastern mountain top and was exceptionally bright. The witness
awakened her husband who agreed that it was too large and bright
to be a star. The following evening at around 9:30 PM, they saw
an orb that was flashing blue, green and red. They observed it
closer with a pair of binoculars and it appeared to be
pulsating. They wentto bed and got up at midnight and again at
2:30 AM, the orb was still there flashing. At 4:30 AM the bright
light was there again in the same spot, and there were more
colored flashing orbs around the sky. They have been watching
the sky every night since. On Thursday, July 23, 2004, the
witness states, "I was driving down Highway 111 around 8:30 PM,
it was dusk and Isaw this bright light in the western sky over
the Santa Rosa Mountain range, it appeared to be moving slowly
downward towards the mountain until it disappeared behind the
mountain range. I looked around the sky and with my binoculars;
I could see several flashing orbs, all with green, red and blue
lights. Every evening since July 19th I have awakened at
different times during the nightto see if the light is in the
eastern sky, it has never appeared before 12:30 AM and is always
still visible until the sun rises. As I watch the light it
slowly drifts upward. Interestingly enough, the light in the
western sky that drifts in and down =appears to be the same
light that settles over the mountain in the eastern sky to only
drift back up until out of sight. I awoke at 12:38 AM and looked
out towards the eastern sky over the San JacintoMountains and I
saw a circular shaped orb that had red, green, and blue lights.
It was the same orb that I have seen in the sky higher up only
this time it was low almost sitting on the mountain. I watched
it for about 15 seconds and then it just disappeared. As I kept
my eyes glued to the sky, the orb reappeared, flashing and
hovering and then dipped below the mountain range. I awoke at
4:30 AM again to find the bright white light hovering in the
same position that I saw the circular orb. The orbs continue to
flash about the sky around this area." Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director www.UFOCenter.com

SONORA -- Mark A. Olson, D.M. reports, "I wish I knew why these
glowing objects have been flying over Sonora forthe past month
and it seems these sightings have been growing more
numerous.&nb=

Take a look at the clips and tell me what you think. Tonight,
July 26, 2004, at 1:17 PM, I had feelings of elation, excitement
and a sense of anticipation. I doubt that these sightings are
going to stop anytime soon.

Thanks to Mark A. Olson, D.M. SonoraSightings.com,
drmarkolson.nul

http://www.xenotechresearch.com/NASASKIES.htm



Oregon - V Formation of Lights

PORTLAND - The observer was burning small tree limbs when he saw
a V formation of nine objects flying north slowly on 19 or 20 of
July 2004, at 3:45 AM. The objects were behind a sheer cloud
with aura's around them. There seemed to be a slight fog around
the nine discs which made the orangea lighter color with a white
aura around them. The observer states, "The V formation sailed
through the sky slowly over the house moving north taking up a
good part of the sky. Since there was a mist around them I could
not make out anything in detail. It was beautiful and I was in
awe. There was no noise whatsoever. The lights did not flash and
the discs stayed in formation of the 'V'". I live ten miles from
an airbase but there were no aircraft flying in the area. Thanks
to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research </SPAN>

Washington - Spheres

KIRKLAND -- This is day two my wife and I saw the same spherical
object moving in the sky at about 60,000 feet altitude on July
20, 2004,at 7:30 PM. Yesterday, they saw three objects. After
three or four minutes, they saw the original silver sphere
moving west like the previous day. He called his wife to come
out and she also saw the sphere. They got out binoculars to see
it better and magnified it was silver and a sphere. It was
probably a little smaller than a jet flying at about 40,000
feet. This time we didn't see any other objects like we did
yesterday flying around it. Then it blinked out and was gone.
There was no high cloud cover this time like there was the day
before. He states, "I think the odds of seeing this thing twice
in two days is really strange. The objects from the day before
moved in odd directions around it and changed direction and
speed. This main sphere kept the same course during both
sightings." Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

MT ADAMS -- On July 27, 2004, 12:26 PM, from out of the west up
over the mountains, there rosea narrow ghostly beam of white
lightSteady and unmoving as it crossed the heavens, I could look
directly up overhead and peer into it at the point where it
crossed above me. Onward to the east the beam continued, until
lost to line of sight. For fifteen or twenty minuets the beam
remained focused in a tight narrow band over head. It did not
move, nor did it waver in the least. I can only compare it to a
gigantic spotlight, this beam was many hundred times larger in
diameter. Despite it's stunning size, it was tightly focused for
the entire time it remained visible. It did not appear like any
Northern lights I haveseen or heard about? There was a decent
display of northern lights a few hours later.

I have never seen northern lights that maintained such integrity
of form for that long of time and crossed the sky from such a
Westerly direction. There were no other lights in the sky at
the time of this occurrence.

This was more as if God's flashlight had been laid across the
sky. This was a narrow, and tight band of light that did not
diffuse as normal light would do. Something odd that can be
added to a list of new and never before seen =phenomena that are
occurring on nearly a daily basis recently. Friends, there is
something, "going down=21" .....Something is happening in the
heavens &nbs=


LAKE SUPERIOR - Wyn sent an e-mail to Cliff Mickelson

Last night we watched a 'northern lights' show except they were
not off the northern horizon as usual-they were directly
overhead, and extending slightly eastward. No color, but bright
white, lasting fifteen minutes. In the midst of it, (about 10
minutes in), what appeared to be a 'shooting star with a tail',
traversed eastward. Previous to this, butlong after sundown, the
horizon to the South, west and north of us had a slight purplish
hue and the moon was pinkish yellow (moon is still hard to look
at-it seemsto continually shimmer). We live on the west end of
Lake Superior, MN to give you an idea of location for this
phenomenon Cliff Mickelson.



Canada - Discs and a Flying Triangle

SOUTHWEST EDMONTON, ALBERTA - On July 28, 2004, a security
guard was at work on shift at about 1:30 AM, walking outside the
building and saw an odd disc object in the west sky with violent
flashing red and yellow lights. It hovered in the same spot for
about ten minutes. Thenit would start to move violently left to
right up and down and diagonally likeit was shaking. This
continued on for about another 30 minutes. The guard went back
inside and completed some work and went back out for another
look. The guard states, "Now I saw eight discs stretched across
thesky doing the exact same thing." I started to get a bit
curious and I went to the front of the building for a look. I
saw two more but these were a lot closer and lower than the
other ones. One started to get really close and was about 5 to
10 km away and roughly 100 feet in the air. It was moving west
and getting lower and lower. It went behind a small hill and it
looked like it could of landed. At this point I was a bit
nervous and notified the police. By the time they arrived the
sky was getting light and you couldn't see much. ; Thanks to
Brian Vike www.hbccufo.com

QUEBEC -- The person reports, "Something happened again during
the night of July 2, 2004.I must confess that I am getting
really tired of this and scared. Mostly I don't understand
what's happening. I am sending you two pictures that I tookwith
my digital camera. Zoom on the lower part and you'll see a
triangle almost identical to the mark I find on my arm from time
to time. The other picture shows two unidentified objects,
greenish in color and facing each other. I took these pictures
around 4 o'clock in the morning. I was mesmerized by the sky on
that night, at that time. I was glued to the window without
knowing exactly why. I fell asleep suddenly in the living room
after taking the pictures. And again I felt something abnormal
happened to me. Brian Vike writes, "This person has had ongoing
close encounters on previous occasions." Thanks to Brian Vike,
www.hbccufo.com

REDCLIFF, ALBERTA - Two brothers were sitting out on the deck of
their Dad's old farmhouse drinking iced tea on July 8, 2004,
when they saw awhite beam of light extending downwards into the
trees. After about six or seven seconds, the beam seemed to
angle and the nose of a blackish triangular thing became
visible. Then a thin row of pale lights outlined the bottom of
the craft. It seemed to rotate once, so another point was facing
our direction and took off in a blink of an eye over us and the
house. We raced to the front yardto see if we could still see
it, but it was gone. It made little to no noise and left a misty
trail. My brother, who has insisted we are "not alone" hashad
four encounters now....this is the first time I've ever believed
him. This is the first time I've ever imagined something like
this was possible. It actually drove us apart, and there was a
time where we hadn't spoken for over a year. Thanks to Brian
Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research www.hbccufo.com


UK/England - Triangle of Three Orange Lights

LONDON -- Looking north from Chelsea in Central London on July
29, 2004, at 7:04 PM, the witness reports, "I saw a strange
looking bright light as I went to close a window and it was
hanging in the air in line with the 30 Street Mary Axe building
in the city." I am familiar with the daily and nightly flow of
helicopters and planes in this area, and this light did notlook
like any normal air traffic. I have lived in the same place for
over 15 years, and I know the sky here. This light was
motionless and oddly colored, without strobes. I grabbed my
telescope and at full magnification, it appeared to have three
lobes in an equilateral triangle configuration, each one being
an orange color. The three lights dimmed to nothing. The whole
event lasted five minutes for me.

He adds, "From where I was observing, it was ten degrees above
the horizon. As for its size, all that I can say is that I
distinctly saw three lobes at maximum magnification, which is
60X on a Bauch & Lomb Discoverer Zoom Telescope." The sky had
broken cloud cover, and there were no stars visible to me at the
time. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

KNEBWORTH -- English crop circle has UFO in the background.
Photo by Steve Alexander - http://www.temporarytemples.co.uk/.
There appears to be two disc shaped objects in the photos. UFOS
are frequently seen near crop circles. Meteroite dust is often
located within the crop circle and within UFO landing sites
indicating a strong relationship of the two phenomena.

See: http://www.cropcircleconnector.com
To: CropCircleConnec

Malaysia - Star Shape Moving Object

KUALA LUMPUR - The witness reports seeing a blinkingstar shaped
object moving at high speed in a straight line. After five
seconds it was blocked from view by heavy clouds at 8:28 PM, on
July 24, 2004. The object resemble a star, but it was not a
meteorite. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Solomon Islands UFOs

In the June-July issue of NEXUS Magazine, Sri Ramon Jun Quitales

II wrote a 'Letter to the Editor' about, "could anyone provide
information of the UFO activity on Makira Island." Other people
living on Solomon Islands have reported heavy UFO activity and
sighting unusually large people wearing grey uniforms. The UFOs
are flat string-ray type craft with large round lights on the
bottom. They reportedly dive in and out ofthe water over known
deep areas of lagoons. Thanks to Skywatch International


New Zealand - Egg Shaped Craft

In the afternoon of July 21, 2004, the observer was looking up
in the sky and saw a disc shaped craft flying over. Later that
night at 1130 PM, he was looking through a telescope and saw a
bright cream colored light.&nbs= p; He and his friend looked out
and saw a hovering disc shaped craft with rock like projectiles
on the outside surface. They saw a Neon blue beam shine into
their paddock. They ran out into the paddock. He states, "Then
the rocks started falling, so we ran back to the house and then
there was a big flashthen that's all I remember about that
night. The next morning, I wentout to check up on the calves and
there were slaughtered heifers scattered on the ground." The
craft made a sound like a chainsaw cutting through a log. and it
gave a magnetic effect on all metals in a 100 meter vicinity
including our barbed wire fence. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director www.UFOCenter.com


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   Aug > Aug 4

                         Secrecy News -- 08/04/2004

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 11:44:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:40:36 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/04/2004


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 73
August 4, 2004


**      THE POSITION OF DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE (CRS)
**      INTELLIGENCE BUDGET DISCLOSED IN NETHERLANDS, NOT US


THE POSITION OF DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE (CRS)

The various proposals to establish a Director of National
Intelligence are described in a new report from the
Congressional Research Service, which also provides a summary of
arguments for and against such a position, and an historical
overview of past efforts to strengthen the authority of the
Director of Central Intelligence.

The current congressional leadership does not permit direct
public access to CRS reports like this one. But a copy was
obtained by Secrecy News.

See "The Position of Director of National Intelligence: Issues
for Congress," July 29, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32506.pdf

The CRS report was completed prior to President Bush's August 2
endorsement of an attenuated version of the National
Intelligence Director position proposed by the 9-11 Commission.


INTELLIGENCE BUDGET DISCLOSED IN NETHERLANDS, NOT US

The General Intelligence and Security Service (AIVD) of the
Netherlands yesterday published an English edition of its 2003
annual report, which includes disclosure of that country's
intelligence budget.

This degree of government accountability is still denied to the
American public, although the 9-11 Commission has recommended
publication of intelligence spending levels.

"When even aggregate categorical [intelligence budget] numbers
remain hidden," the 9-11 Commission noted (p. 416), "it is hard
to judge priorities and foster accountability."

The point was reiterated August 3 by Commission staff director
Philip Zelikow who summarized the Commission's recommendations
in testimony before the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee:

"The overall [intelligence budget] appropriation should be
unclassified, as should the topline appropriation for the
principal intelligence agencies. Congress and the American
people should be better able to make broad judgments about how
much money is being spent, and to what general purpose."

In the Netherlands, and other democracies including the UK and
Canada, such budget disclosure is taken for granted.

See the 2003 annual report of the AIVD here (budget data may be
found at pp. 69-70) (thanks to Cees Wiebes):

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/netherlands/aivd2003-eng.pdf

_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 4

                  Mersin Police Record So-Called UFO Images

From: Eustaquio Andrea Patounas <socex.nul>
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 14:03:38 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:43:57 -0400
Subject: Mersin Police Record So-Called UFO Images


Source: Turkish Press - Turkey

http://www.turkishpress.com/turkishpress/news.asp?ID=3D23772

08-04-04

CihanNews:

MERSIN (CIHAN) - Mersin Security Authority cameras have recorded
some so-called UFO images in the sky for the third time in the
last 15 days.

The recorded videos were sent to the Scientific and Technical
Research Council of Turkey for examination.

Mersin police, acting on calls from citizens, shot the videos of
an unidentified object radiating light in the sky at 4:10 on
Wednesday. Mersin Security Authority polices have recorded
unidentified objects two times over the Mersin Trade Zone and
the ATAS refinery.

Residents of the village of G=FCll=FCbag in the province of Usak had
claimed that UFOs were seen in the sky over their village in
late June.

On December 5, 2002, in Davulga, Emirdag County near the city of
Afyon, a 19 year-old boy claimed that he had captured the images
of bright flying objects on his video camera on two successive
nights and days.







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   Aug > Aug 4

                        Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:45:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:47:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks


>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:40:33 +1000
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:20:20 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:53:26 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>>>Bottom line is it's simply numbers.

<snip>

>>For what it's worth, the most impressive UFO photos I have yet
>>to come across are from the 1993 Australian sighting near Maslin
>>Beach. I have seen printed versions of these that are far more
>>impressive than even the screen photos below. Do they feature a
>>"real" flying saucer? Beats the hell out of me, but they sure
>>are fun to examine!

>http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/shaman/924/main_page.htm

>I would like to inform you the Maslin Beach photos have not yet
>been proven to be fake. Debbie Pyane of AURA has informed me
>another wittiness has come forward to verify that what is in
>these photos is a real UFO as the witness says she saw the
>objects.

>For the moment we are waiting for Debbie's to complete her
>report.

>I must admit these photos are great, and as some would say, they
>look to good to be real.

>We will keep you informed of the outcome.


The website gives very little substantive witness data, no
names. The photos look faked, like small objects dropped or
tossed, or montaged onto other photos of the beach sky.

Photo 1 claims to be taken in the West (at sunrise) at 5:45 AM,
so the bright sun seen in the subsequent pics should be shining
brightly on the object. Yet the object appears to be heavily in
shadow. But there is no coherent account presented of who was
taking these pics, why, what they allegedly saw and when and
where.







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   Aug > Aug 4

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:25:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:50:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 22:53:02 +0100
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 19:01:25 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 14:41:56 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>Others have said that anybody could have found out from the
>>Truman Library that WB Smith's only meeting with Truman over a
>>several month period was the 01 August , 1950, date noted in the
>>EBD. But did they? I asked the TL if anybody else had asked for
>>dates of their meetings. The answer was NO. In other words could
>>have, might have, etc, are not the same as did.


>Is this supposed to prove nobody could have found the Aug,1,

>The forger had no need to ask the library archivist for dates of
>the Truman-Smith meetings. He simply requested the Truman
>appointments for, say, June 1949 to Nov. 1950. He did the
>research himself, discovered the August 1, 1950 meeting and
>found that it was the only such meeting for the period in
>question. He then inserted that date in the Ike briefing memo.
>This would have been long before you visited the library.

>Thus no insider was involved.

>There must be numerous historians who used the Truman diaries
>for this period. No archivist could possibly remember which of
>them did what, nor would the library disclose the names of
>previous visitors (unless by police or court order I presume).


CDA,

Cogent beyond reproach. Exactly the approach a forger would use
if he wanted the document to be "verifiable". Particularly
clever if the forger knew the recipient (Moore) would do the
research... or have associate(s) who would.

Since the documents originated in someone's mailbox and not in
any official archive, and since they clearly serve as an
indictment of the government as complicit in a lie, and since
our justice system provides for presumption of innocence, the
presumption must be that the documents are fantasy. The burden
is on those that claim them to be real. And so.....

The MJ-12 documents are plainly too tainted to accept at face
value. Decades of attempts to authenticate them have proven
fruitless without fundamental conjecture (proclamation).In
fact, much of the evidence used to support the case also support
the alternative. These attempts fail to prove beyond a
preponderance of the evidence that the documents are genuine, or
anything beyond the capabilities of an informed forger who knew
exactly to whom the documents should be "leaked".

As a "civil" matter, the case for the MJ-12 documents fails.

Likewise, the MJ-12 documents neither bear on the question of
what actually happened at Roswell and vicinity in 1947, nor on
the integrity of those who worked to confirm the documents'
veracity.

Let us apply this kind of investigatory vigor and scientific
mind-set to more contemporary cases...cases on which time and
deceit have yet to have deleterious effect.


Kyle







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   Aug > Aug 4

                          New Mars Rover UFO Photos

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:52:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:53:25 -0400
Subject: New Mars Rover UFO Photos


Always nice to get something showing up in the sky of Mars,
since it makes it so much easier to dismiss birds, planes,
Superman, etc.

Some interesting little shiny pixels showed up in the sky in
some of the Sol 206 (Aug. 2) photos. Two sets of stereo photos
show a vertically elogated "something" in the sky. Doesn't
appear to be a faulty pixel batch.

No detail, other than the verticality. By putting the photos in
proper stereo alignment, the pixels definitely don't line up as
if they were a distant, deep sky object, like a star or passing
moon. Either that, or it's bouncing around in the sky a lot.

Somebody with a little better image manipulation skill than
myself can maybe put them in proper stereo, and since we know
how far apart the stereo pancam lenses are, a little math might
be able to approximate a distance.

Find the UFO approx. 11 o'clock, high in the sky:

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/jpl-images/web/spirit/pancam/2004-08-02/2P14457
0850EFF8100P2397L7M1.JPG

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/jpl-images/web/spirit/pancam/2004-08-02/2P14457
0850EFF8100P2397R1M1.JPG

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/jpl-images/web/spirit/pancam/2004-08-02/2P14457
0877EFF8100P2397L7M1.JPG

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/jpl-images/web/spirit/pancam/2004-08-02/2P14457
0877EFF8100P2397R1M1.JPG







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                          Re: Varginha Again - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:38:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:55:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - King


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 05:52:59 EDT
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd  - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 22:45:25 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 23:13:27 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

><snip>

>>>If we were supposed to be scientifically inclined, why, I
>>>wonder... without strong data, only with some witnesses and a
>>>"doctor" stories did we assume the E.T. hypothesis?

>>Please review the info about the Varginha Case. You will easily
>>find out that there is an amazing and overwhelming amount of
>>data to stress out the alien and the craft=B4s debris as non-
>>terrestrial.

>>The "Doctor" report is one of great value to the
>>research of the case and to the entire Ufology field. When have
>>we ever heard of someone involved in the health area to claim
>>with such certainty to have had an alien creature in his
>>hospital? Plus, he wasn=B4t alone with the creature and his
>>feelings about its nature were shared with other professionals.

>I'm still waiting to see _any_ medical scientific data
>supposedly transmitted by the "Doctor" to another MD
>"professional."   None has been provided.  There was a claim by
>the "Doctor" that he had tested the "tensile strength" of the
>creature's protruding broken bone. As tensile strength is
>determined by stretching till it breaks this would be a
>violation of a medical doctor's Hippocratic Oath and would be
>grounds for revoking his license to practice medicine in most
>civilized countries.  We don't even treat animals that way.
> Such a bizarre and cruel test, inflicting great pain, would
>surely also have upset the soldiers allegedly guarding the
>creature, who would surely have prevented the "Doctor" from
>carrying out such a procedure.


Brad,

While I agree with your assessment of the "Doctor"'s report, I
differ on your characterization of the test of "tensile
strength" regarding the being's bone. As the fracture was of a
compound nature, the bone would likely be splintered. The
fragments would be removed from the surrounding wound as a
matter of course, to prevent infection and to prepare the area
for treatment (setting and casting the break).

Any of these splinters or fragments could have been used in a
basic test of tensile strength.

That said, the report remains far too tenuous and devoid of any
real medical data on which to base any conclusions.


Kyle








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              Re: Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF -

From: Nicholas Redfern <nick.redfern.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:43:24 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 17:01:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 09:10:57 -0500
>Subject: Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF


I have just read Max Burns' piece on Dave Clarke and Andy
Roberts.

Max states that with Andy and Dave I took the easy option re
their views/comments, changed my opinions on the Berwyn case
because of Andy's attacks and am now quite pally with the
terrible twosome and stand in line rather than stand up.

Okay, let's look at the facts (quickly, as this in no way
advances ufology, but it does allow me to at least put the
matter in its right context for anyone that reads Max's
article). First, I don't ever go along with what people say
because it's the easy option. I go through life doing exactly
what I want to do on my own terms, hence the reason why I have
never worked 9 to 5 for nearly 20 years - I don't like being
told what to do by other people.

Max also states that I am now friends with Andy and that this
largely stemmed following a vicious attack on me and my
conclusions on the notorious Berwyn case of 1974. Saying that I
am now quite friendly with Andy implies that this wasn't always
the case. However, it WAS always the case. I have got on very
well with Andy right back to the days when I used to subscribe
to his UFO Brigantia magazine way back in the 80s. For some
reason, so many people in ufology seem to think that if you
disagree vehemently with someone else on a ufoligical issue, you
can't be friends with them - which is crazy.

Fact is: Andy and I still disagree on a lot when it comes to
ufology (and - shock! even on the Berwyns on a few points), but
it doesn't mean we can't sit down and have a pint together.
Furthermore, Max says that my turnaround and standing in line
approach came after I was viciously attacked in Andy's Armchair
Ufologist re my views on the "British Roswell" - the Berwyn
Mountain case of 1974.

Er, no, actually, that isn't what happened. What happened was
this: Andy sent me his report on the Berwyn incident which, when
I read it, led me to believe that he had come up with the best
explanation for the case. Granted, there are still some
anomalies, but as far as being largely solved, I think Andy has
done that.

And as someone who has never "needed" to believe in UFOs, I
decided to discard the Berwyn case as being an example of a
genuine UFO incident and I moved on. And this was based on me
studying Andy's data and comparing it to other people's and then
coming to a conclusion. It had NOTHING to do with me getting in
line, taking an easy option or not wanting to confront Andy and
Dave and playing it safe. It comes down to the fact (and nothing
else) that, as far as I am concerned, Andy had solved the story.
In fact, I fail to see how when presented with the evidence
anyone can see my stance as anything than what it is.

Now it is true that many of my previous beliefs on the UFO
subject have changed and changed radically, and it's also true
that this is in part due to Dave and Andy. But...it's not due to
me taking a soft line or "towing the line" or bullying tactics.
You really think I would stand for something like that Max? If
you do, you truly don't know me at all. It is purely and simply
that the research they have done on Govt files in particular has
led me to alter many of my views. It really is that simple. But
as I don't "live" for UFOs in a geeky "I want to believe" style,
I have no problem changing my views when the evidence suggests
change is needed.


Nick Redfern








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                        Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:12:41 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 06:52:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha Again - Gevaerd


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 05:52:59 EDT
>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 22:45:25 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Varginha Again

<snip>

>>The "Doctor" report is one of great value to the
>>research of the case and to the entire Ufology field. When have
>>we ever heard of someone involved in the health area to claim
>>with such certainty to have had an alien creature in his
>>hospital? Plus, he wasn=B4t alone with the creature and his
>>feelings about its nature were shared with other professionals.

>A.J.,

>I'm still waiting to see _any_ medical scientific data
>supposedly transmitted by the "Doctor" to another MD
>"professional." None has been provided.

So are we, Brad. We would love to have that info and spread it
all over after have it checked out. However, the "Doctor" only
agreed to see Doc Leir after a lot of insistance from Ubirajara,
who is an acquaintace of him for decades. He refused to go into
details as he is very much afraid something may happen to him.

There was a claim by the "Doctor" that he had tested the
"tensile strength" of the creature's protruding broken bone. As
tensile strength is determined by stretching till it breaks this
would be a violation of a medical doctor's Hippocratic Oath and
would be grounds for revoking his license to practice medicine
in most civilized countries. We don't even treat animals that
way. Such a bizarre and cruel test, inflicting great pain, would
surely also have upset the soldiers allegedly guarding the
creature, who would surely have prevented the "Doctor" from
carrying out such a procedure.

I do not know exactly what did the "Doctor" referred to when he
used the expression "tested". I guess he only conducted a
superficial exam, nothing close to a complete anamnesis. But I
will double check and let you know. Before I do so, please have
in mind that the "Doctor" only had the creature in his hospital
bed for a short time, during what he was constantly watched.


ATB...


A. J.





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                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:13:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 06:56:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford


>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:40:33 +1000
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:20:20 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:53:26 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>><snip>

>>>Bottom line is it's simply numbers.

>><snip>

>>For what it's worth, the most impressive UFO photos I have yet
>>to come across are from the 1993 Australian sighting near Maslin
>>Beach. I have seen printed versions of these that are far more
>>impressive than even the screen photos below. Do they feature a
>>"real" flying saucer? Beats the hell out of me, but they sure
>>are fun to examine!

>>http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/shaman/924/main_page.htm

>I would like to inform you the Maslin Beach photos have not yet
>been proven to be fake. Debbie Pyane of AURA has informed me
>another wittiness has come forward to verify that what is in
>these photos is a real UFO as the witness says she saw the
>objects.

Hi Diane,

If you wanted to be more objective, you could have modified
that, by saying there is an, "alleged witness".

But, I suspect your unconscious has spilled your real inner
knowledge to us by your spelling of the word "witness" as
"wittiness". Freudian slips are pretty witty and revealing,
sometime. :)

Since this photographer has made his phony photos available on
the internet for years (You may know where else.), if one is
willing to accept the testimony of one single after-the-photos-
are-out witness in preference to the self-contained evidences
that the photos are fake, then I question that person's
reliability as a UFO photo case researcher.

If this alleged witness did not make her claim before those
photos were circulated, I say forget it. Yet, she might even be
an accomplice of the photographer. An independent person might
be seeking a bit of attention. There are some persons who can
read of almost any event and convince themselves of personally
having been there. They are known as schizophrenics.

Now, let me illustrate how unreliable I consider single-witness
testimony (without that person having also taken credible
photos) after publication of any UFO photos or films to be (even
when they are real ones), and how I put that consideration into
practice:

On October 5, 1985, in Corpus Christi, Texas, four adults
(including me) and two children (mine) witnessed an incredible
procession of seven UFOs (all alike except the last one, which
was totally different in appearance) while I filmed (via 10-X
optical telephoto) four of the objects before I ran out of super
8 mm Kodachrome movie film. One of the six identical UFOs was
filmed by me as it extended a slowly-extending beam (electrical
blue with magenta nodes), rotated it around pretty much in our
direction, and then 'reversed it back in'. Those UFOs were not
blobs of light, but structured objects, rendering structural
details and vividly colored plasma from-rim emission patterns
well-resolved in the movie.

All four of us witnesses were on the semi-circular Emerald Cove
break-water jetty that extends out from the north end of the
beach of Corpus Christi Bay, which jetty extends off the north
end of the E.B. Cole Park immediately to its south.

There were probably several hundred people out at that adjacent
area on that beautiful October weekend day, and since all of us
on that little jetty saw the UFO procession, I am confident that
a large number of those at the adjacent park witnessed what was
happening, as well. One of the objects in the procession stopped
and hovered almost overhead, waiting for another identical
structured, plasma-pattern-emitting object to come across the
sky from the northeast on a horizontal path, and then both took
off, closely side-by-side (only a few diameters separating
them), disappearing due to the distance on an almost vertical
climb.

Well, here comes the additional-witness-seeking-caveat: After
seeing how propulsion-diagnostically excellent and detailed the
movie had turned out, I phoned the local newspaper, the Corpus
Christi Caller-Times, and talked to a reporter. I was cautious
not to give him any description of the appearance of the two
types of objects (recording of that conversation in my file on
the case), but only said that a group of us on the bay that
October 5 mid-afternoon had seen and filmed some highly strange
objects that flew over, and asked if the newspaper had received
any reports concerning strange objects in the sky in mid-
afternoon.

The reporter said, yes, that he had received a call from a 12 or
14-year old boy (I have not listened to the tape recently.) who
had, in fact, photographed what he felt was a UFO passing over
in mid-afternoon on October 5, 1985. The boy had said that the
film was unprocessed, and (at the reporter's request) the kid's
mother brought him down to the newspaper for them to process the
film.

Of course, the boy had used only a small, inexpensive camera
with short focal-length lens, so although his photo (Or was it
photos?) showed a bright object, the reporter was disappointed -
- Perhaps he expected a little green man waving out a UFO
window. :) -- and so told the boy that he had, "... only filmed
a satellite..."!!! Now, understand, that the reporter-alleged
"satellite" had been seen and photographed in mid-afternoon on a
bright October day (not at night), at the same time as our
movie-visual event.

The reporter admitted that the poor kid protested, insisting
that it was not a satellite he had seen, but the reporter
insisted and said he would not publish anything about it. The
reporter went on to claim that he eventually convinced the kid
that he had only photographed a satellite, but I doubt that.

When the reporter told me that disgusting story, I, too,
protested and asked him to put me in contact with either the
youthful photographer or his mother, but he refused, saying they
might not want anyone to know they had been fooled by a
satellite! One wonders why the boy called the paper in the first
place, if they were afraid of people knowing they thought a UFO
had been seen and photographed!

That failed, I asked the reporter to carry a story that UFOs had
reportedly been seen by at least six witnesses and filmed by one
of then, along with a request that any observers contact me, in
confidence, if needed. Idiotically, the reporter responded that
he would publish such a story and request for additional
witnesses only if I would provide them with frame prints from
the UFO movie to publish along with the request!

I protested that an objective, investigative type reporter would
not be willing to show potential 'witnesses' exactly what one of
the objects looked like via images from my movie. I assured him
that unless such a witness had photos to back up any claim of
having seen what we had seen and filmed, such information-fed
witness testimony is essentially worthless. I told him that I
would be willing to supply them film images after the experiment
was successfully over, but only then.

Even with that plea for investigative caution and rationality,
the reporter refused to cooperate. What a dunce!

So, Diane, considering the fact that what was shown in those
Maslin Beach photos was potentially well-known all over the
world, an after-the-fact alleged single witnesses should really
not play a part in evaluating those
photos.

>For the moment we are waiting for Debbie's to complete her
>report.

>I must admit these photos are great...

Great is as great does, and those fake photos don't do a thing
to help scientific UFOlogy, and potentially could harm it.

I somehow don't think you're really sure about those photos
being "great", Diane. O.K., you are a blonde, but I've never
thought of you as a case of the fabled dumb blonde. :)

Sorry, but "great" does not fit those photos. I could think of
a few short, descriptive words, but...

One really lives in the fabled Land of Oz, though, if one
believes those photos! :)


Ray Stanford






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                         Re: Close-Up Photos - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:15:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 08:34:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - King


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 07:47:09 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:16:52 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>While suspension is most often assumed to mean a single "string"
>>attached to the center of the object at one end and a fishing
>>pole or some such at the other, a much more valuable (read
>>anomalous) range of motion is attainable when the object is
>>suspended from a line or lines attached to a separate line which
>>is supported at each end. An earlier post supposed a mesh of
>>some sort... equally effective.

>I've always been a fan of using large panes of glass or some
>other transparent material.They've heavy, and there are
>reflection problems you have to worry about, but it does
>eliminate that annoying string.

>A more expensive but infinitely better solution is to create an
>actual 8-meter diameter flying saucer, a dirigible light enough
>to float with helium and send it up. No strings, no
>reflections. You can even show it landed. Pose a few phoney
>but realistic-looking aliens around it and voy-lah! Instant
>CE-III.

>Funny nobody's gone to those lengths yet (as far as we know).

Tim,

Good points all, but...

"As far as we know"...there's the important point. Until
researched, EVERY "UFO" photo should be presumed fake, as we
know that hoaxers various levels of "expertise" abound and for
multiple reasons.

Also don't forget that a couple of garbage can lids duct-taped
together and hurled through the air could work as well, and
wouldn't require string or helium. In the case of still
photographs, you could "toss and shoot" numerous times and later
pick out the ones that were most convincing.

What would advance this photo case? I'd want to see the original
negatives bearing sequence numbers, and the permission to make
one-off enlargements of them in a professional lab.

Without that the case must remain "presumed hoax".


Kyle







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                    Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:24:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 08:40:21 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos - Groff


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:52:34 -0500
>Subject: New Mars Rover UFO Photos

>Always nice to get something showing up in the sky of Mars,
>since it makes it so much easier to dismiss birds, planes,
>Superman, etc.

<snip>


Hi Tim,

This is obviously a blemish or aberration of the lens. If you do
a blink between the two Left Navigation Cameras you will see
this speck is in exactly the same position relative to the image
even though the camera is looking in different directions.

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/jpl-images/web/spirit/pancam/2004-08-02/2P14457
0850EFF8100P2397L7M1.JPG
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/jpl-images/web/spirit/pancam/2004-08-02/2P14457
0877EFF8100P2397L7M1.JPG

You get the same result when you blink the two Right Navigation
camera images.

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/jpl-images/web/spirit/pancam/2004-08-02/2P14457
0850EFF8100P2397R1M1.JPG
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/jpl-images/web/spirit/pancam/2004-08-02/2P14457
0877EFF8100P2397R1M1.JPG


Terry







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                    Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 21:32:02 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 08:45:27 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos - Hall


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:52:34 -0500
>Subject: New Mars Rover UFO Photos

>Always nice to get something showing up in the sky of Mars,
>since it makes it so much easier to dismiss birds, planes,
>Superman, etc.

>Some interesting little shiny pixels showed up in the sky in
>some of the Sol 206 (Aug. 2) photos. Two sets of stereo photos
>show a vertically elogated "something" in the sky. Doesn't
>appear to be a faulty pixel batch.

>No detail, other than the verticality. By putting the photos in
>proper stereo alignment, the pixels definitely don't line up as
>if they were a distant, deep sky object, like a star or passing
>moon. Either that, or it's bouncing around in the sky a lot.

>Somebody with a little better image manipulation skill than
>myself can maybe put them in proper stereo, and since we know
>how far apart the stereo pancam lenses are, a little math might
>be able to approximate a distance.

>Find the UFO approx. 11 o'clock, high in the sky:

>http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/jpl-images/web/spirit/pancam/2004-08-02/2P1445
70850EFF8100P2397L7M1.JPG

>http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/jpl-images/web/spirit/pancam/2004-08-02/2P1445
70850EFF8100P2397R1M1.JPG

>http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/jpl-images/web/spirit/pancam/2004-08-02/2P1445
70877EFF8100P2397L7M1.JPG

>http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/jpl-images/web/spirit/pancam/2004-08-02/2P1445
70877EFF8100P2397R1M1.JPG

Tim,

The photos look like a Mogul balloon crash site. ;-)

But "UFO?" I can't get excited by a pinpoint dot in any film
image, which could be just about anything... unless it does
something UFOlike (as established by me and others over the
years) such as hover, then change position rapidly, dart to and
fro, and all the other firmly established patterns which provide
a meaningful definition of "UFO".  A semantical problem,
perhaps, but an important distinction. Nothing is a "UFO" until
some extensive investigation has been conducted and no obvious
mundane answer is found.







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   Aug > Aug 5

                           Re: ETH Modeling - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:49:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 08:54:05 -0400
Subject: Re: ETH Modeling - King


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:16:32 -0500
>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 18:42:29 EDT
>>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

>>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 23:15:35 -0700
>>>Subject: ETH Modeling

>>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:13:43 EDT
>>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>Thanks Jim, just what I was looking for, though please note that
>>the context of my request was that as I have been saying all
>>along, the SETI community (such as Fogg in Icarus) has been
>>publishing models of ETH but that the UFO community has not, or
>>has only very isolated instances that are not cumulatively built
>>upon, so I would be "delighted" to find some overlooked "body of
>>literature" by the UFO community attempting to model ETH in a
>>testable quantitative way, as Jerry seemed to imply or allude to
>>existing somewhere.

>Well, Swords's work, as I've stated explicitly several times.

>More important, however, a question:

>Where exactly in the SETI literature has someone written that he
>or she would take the UFO question seriously if ufologists
>proposed a model of the ETH such as you demand?I have read all
>sorts of anti-UFO arguments, none especially cogent, in that
>literature; but if one mounts an argument like yours, I haven't
>seen or heard of it. My not-uninformed impression is that for
>the SETI types, the lack of modeling is not the reason for their
>refusal to consider UFO evidence, and you're advancing a
>criticism of ufology that not even the standard debunking
>critics advance.

The "debunkers" as you call "them" would rely on the lack of
scientifically testable models because they inherently cannot be
"debunked". "They" would never use this lack to further "their"
more "evil" motives. Far better to inflame the tender egos of
the "believers" and obfuscate the debate... or reduce it to
name-calling.

Ufology's best course is to develop testable hypotheses, use
thorough objective scientific analysis, and refrain from
declaring the UFO riddle solved by curious photos alone.

What would be left for the "debunkers" to debunk?

I am not convinced of the ETH. I am exceptionally curious about
the things that have been seen and experienced, however. My mind
is neither closed to the ETH, nor accepting of it on the merits.
But it hasn't been my life's work, and I don't pretend to be
an expert on extraterrestrial craft visiting our planet... or the
supposed photos thereof.

I am convinced that there are questions we have yet to answer,
and those answers may... or may not... lie in the ETH.

If that prompts anyone to angrily "label" me as a "debunker",
so be it.

Personally, anyone who reacts to someone questioning their
conclusions with shrill cries of "Debunker!" are simply unable
to support their conclusion, or insufficiently intelligent to be
able to do so. The "Debunker" label presumably means that any
dissent is to be discarded. How convenient.

Like my rants against the Iraq war weeks before it began were
met with shrill cries of "Traitor!!". Those voices are rather
quiet now.

I believe we are individuals with our own minds, or without as
the case may be.


Kyle








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                    Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:08:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 08:58:58 -0400
Subject: Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed - King


>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:02:52 +1000
>Subject: Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:32:04 -0500
>>Subject: Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed

>>>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Mon,2 Aug 2004 14:13:12 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed

>>>>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 17:41:20 +1000
>>>>Subject: More Daytime UFOs Videoed

>>>>http://theozfactor.nucleardays.com/ufo-16july2004.htm

>>>Gotta get an optical zoom.That digital zoom stuff is just awful,
>>>and "enhancing" those little smeared-out pixels really doesn't
>>>help. Optical is the only way to go.

>>Optical zoom would have resulted in a mundane photo of a mylar
>>balloon cluster. Where's the fun in that? :)

>Digital zoom is only used momentarily to see if anything useful
>can be salvaged from the digital zoom images. Sometimes
>something can. The greater part of the footage is in full
>optical zoom X40. This is camera max.

>As far as your comment of "Mylar balloons" I find ridiculous.
>You must be of the opinion that if a UFO is not disc shaped it
>must be a balloon. Well hey, wake up to the fact that these
>objects are genuine UFOs.

>I do not know what a person has to do to demonstrate this fact
>other then try to video them when these events are happening,
>then present the evidence for you viewing. If for one moment I
>thought they were 'Mylar balloons', I would not waste my time on
>it.

>If you continually blatantly 'debunk' the genuine UFO footage
>Kyle, you will never learn anything about the subject. Maybe
>this is not you aim. Others with knowledge on the subject and
>willingness to advance by learning what is being caught on
>video, will advance in leaps and bounds. Some are.

>It is 'simple research' just to sit back and blindly comment on
>something your are inexperienced in, when others are out there on
>the 'front line' doing the hard yards in gathering evidence. We
>know what side of the fence you are on.

>I hope you can learn to 'look before you leap' next time Kyle,
>it is much more rewarding.

Barry,

Oops. My bad. A clearer video would have confirmed the
obvious... a Mercury-blob shaped, intelligently-meandering craft
from another planet.

Forget that there is no evidence that this is anything else,
because it can be nothing else.

Since you are the expert here, your rhetoric is sufficient as
rebuttal.

I am without argument in the face of such "logic".

And if you think me a "debunker", you reveal an ignorance that
is beyond my ability...or desire...to remedy.

But to enlighten me, please explain the rationale behind the
behavior of this "UFO".

And please remind me of where my thesis is in error, rather than
issue accusatory hyperbole which has no bearing on the
identification of the object in question.

If I draw a logically conservative conclusion based on my
personal experience, and my conclusion differs from your own, is
it your feeling that accusing me of being a "debunker" lends
credence to your belief? If so, you deserve sympathy rather than
acquiescence.

It's a few Mylar balloons, one or more of which has deflated,
creating the "dangling" object.

That's my thesis. I can support it.

Buy a few balloons, puncture one of them, and set them aloft
tied together, ands whip out your video cam. There will come a
moment when the distance is such that your balloons will
magically transmogrify into an intelligently-meandering,
mercury-blob shaped craft from another planet.

Ignorance is bliss... until it is challenged.


Kyle







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                      Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:04:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:10:03 -0400
Subject: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites


Source: BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3530748.stm

08-04-04

Anyone with an unexplained object that has fallen in their back
garden might want to check whether they have found a meteorite.

More than 30 are believed to fall in the United Kingdom each
year - but very few are ever identified.

And the Open University is now encouraging the public to become
meteorite hunters.

A website will help people to discover whether any objects they
find are really from outer space.

The project is part of an Open University and BBC Two series,
Stardate, which will encourage people to look for meteorites -
 which fall at a rate of more than one a fortnight, but mostly
go unidentified.

Oldest objects

It is claimed that there are thousands of meteorites across the
UK waiting to be found - with only 20 authenticated discoveries
so far.

"These are rocks from space and are the oldest objects you can
handle. They tell us about the formation of the solar system and
the stars that lived and died before the solar system formed,"
says Richard Greenwood, the Open University's meteorite curator.

"There are two approaches to finding a meteorite; you could
either look where other meteorites have been found, as
statistically there is a higher chance of finding a meteorite
there, or, if you are hoping to find something unique search in
a place where no meteorite has previously been found.

"One of the top places in the world to find meteorites is North
America, due to its featureless landscape, which allows the
meteorites to be spotted easily. Therefore, looking in similar
landscapes in the UK could also be lucrative," says Dr
Greenwood.

If anyone does find a meteorite which is authenticated, it will
be given a name - usually based on where it is found - and will
be added to an official catalogue of finds held by the Natural
History Museum.

A sample of any authenticated meteorite has to be handed to
researchers, but the remainder will be the property of the
person who finds it or the owner of the land where it was
discovered.

Meteorites have so far been found in four sites in Scotland, two
in Wales and Northern Ireland and 12 in England.

The website is to be launched on 9 August and a programme, which
will feature the hunt, will be shown on BBC2 in late September.







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              Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 18:47:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:14:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 01:25:39 EDT
>Subject: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes

>http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/378/13614_aliens.html

>Seems like Pravda is just chock full of paranormal stories
>nowadays.

>This one is about an investigation into large anomalous holes
>some believed caused by UFOs.

>A more prosaic explanation follows but still leaves a question
>or two.

>This reminds me that since the Soviet Union collapsed shouldn't
>their former top secret UFO information have come to light by
>now? Why is it every country on Earth seems to have an equally
>effective 'hush up' campaign or am I wrong on this?

>Considering how conflicting ideologies are amongst nations
>you'ld figure by now our enemies would have figured out the way
>to bring down the U.S.A. would be to put out as much UFO/Alien
>information they could.

>I guess the 'evil terrorist empires' we're supposed to be afraid
>of haven't caught on to that one yet.


As noted earlier, Pravda is no longer a newspaper (as if it ever
really was). It is a tabloid, and it is indeed chock full of
anomaly news. Compares favorably with the Weekly World News and
the Washington Times for the most part.

I have always been curious about your second point, and that's
why I visit foreign UFO sites regularly. Malta, Brazil, and even
Russia has lots of good sites with unusual stories, if no real
hard evidence.

As for your last, it does seem peculiar that if the US was in
collusion with other countries to hide UFO knowledge, we'd have
enough enemies by now for that race horse to be well down the
track.

While absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, absence of
evidence is indeed evidence of nothing.

Kyle







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                 Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 22:03:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:42:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 01:25:39 EDT
>Subject: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes


>http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/378/13614_aliens.html

>Seems like Pravda is just chock full of paranormal stories
>nowadays.

<snip>

Pravda is just a tabloid these days, with no relationship or
resemblance to the Soviet-era newspaper (except, perhaps, for
the scarcity of truth in its pages).

>This reminds me that since the Soviet Union collapsed shouldn't
>their former top secret UFO information have come to light by
>now? Why is it every country on Earth seems to have an equally
>effective 'hush up' campaign or am I wrong on this?

It really doesn't seem that way to me. The current Russian
government hasn't said anything at all about UFOs to my
knowlegde, but some fairly high-ranking former Soviet generals
have acknowledged that there were UFO incidents in the USSR on
their watch that they couldn't explain. In recent years, there
have been a number of countries that have released UFO
information that the US government most likely would not have:
France, Spain, and Chile come to mind. Also Mexico, apparently.
The reason that it might seem as if foreign governments are
keeping quiet about UFOs might not be because they really are,
but because it's rarely reported in U.S. newspapers. The
reporter who wrote the story on the French COMETA report for the
Boston Globe a while back said she had a really hard time
getting her editors to publish it.

>Considering how conflicting ideologies are amongst nations
>you'ld figure by now our enemies would have figured out the way
>to bring down the U.S.A. would be to put out as much UFO/Alien
>information they could.

>I guess the 'evil terrorist empires' we're supposed to be afraid
>of haven't caught on to that one yet.

I doubt that Islamic extremists would ever even think about
extraterrestrials. The subject is just not a part of their
world. If they view Americans as "foreign devils," I don't think
they'd take too kindly to off-planet visitors contaminating
their Islamic culture - unless ETs turned out to be devout
muslims.







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                          Re: ETH Modeling - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 00:45:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:44:53 -0400
Subject: Re: ETH Modeling - Sparks


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:16:32 -0500
>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 18:42:29 EDT
>>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

>>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 23:15:35 -0700
>>>Subject: ETH Modeling

>>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:13:43 EDT
>>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>Thanks Jim, just what I was looking for, though please note that
>>the context of my request was that as I have been saying all
>>along, the SETI community (such as Fogg in Icarus) has been
>>publishing models of ETH but that the UFO community has not, or
>>has only very isolated instances that are not cumulatively built
>>upon, so I would be "delighted" to find some overlooked "body of
>>literature" by the UFO community attempting to model ETH in a
>>testable quantitative way, as Jerry seemed to imply or allude to
>>existing somewhere.

>Well, Swords's work, as I've stated explicitly several times.

Hi Jerry,

I've said a number of times now that Swords' latest ETH work I
can find, his article in your 1998 UFO Encyclopedia (which
references his own earlier work) does not make any reference to
testable quantitative ETH modeling by anyone within the UFO
community, Swords himself included. Your own longer ETH article
also does not refer to any such testable numerical modeling of
ETH by the UFO community. So if you know of such work within the
UFO field that is not referenced in your UFO Encyclopedia please
let me know. Even if one isolated article can be found somewhere
in the UFO literature it won't be a "body of literature" that
has been "cumulatively built upon" since it apparently does not
even warrant mention in your Encyclopedia (where some "building"
and expansion could have been done). I would of course still be
very interested even in an isolated UFO article doing such a
promising work on testably modeling the ETH (such an article
would be historic).

>More important, however, a question:

>Where exactly in the SETI literature has someone written that he
>or she would take the UFO question seriously if ufologists
>proposed a model of the ETH such as you demand?

I don't think I ever said there was any such magnanimous SETI
spirit toward UFOs, but I've said to the contrary that SETI
takes a hostile, debunking attitude to the UFO phenomenon and
has modeled ETH usually in a way that tries to debunk UFO
reality, illogically arguing as if ETH was the only explanation
and thus if that fails then the whole UFO phenomenon itself does
not exist. You need to get out of the trap of the "debunker-
antidebunker" mindset, which only leads to nowhere. Free your
mind, as they say in The Matrix, from the traps of past cycles
of hopeless thinking, and sharpen it with more rigorous
thinking.

I've said a number of times that we need to sift out the "good"
from the "bad" in the SETI arguments, or if the SETI modeling of
UFO behavior as ETH is not salvageable at all, then it needs to
be replaced by something better that the UFO community creates,
but don't give up the whole project just because SETI has bad
motives or comes off with arrogant debunkery, or whatever. We're
grownups, we should be able to see beyond the emotionalism and
illogic in SETI arguments and seize on the merits and try to
improve on them. That is not being done.

SETI keeps doing our UFO work for us with bad ulterior motives
and we just whine that they are "so rotten!" instead of saying
"Hey, they've started some good ideas, maybe we can ignore the
vitriol and nonsense, and use SETI ideas to save us some work
and conceptual difficulties." So, if SETI uses silly arguments
that each and every UFO sighting must represent a direct
interstellar trip from a remote star system, we can just correct
that and put in more reasonable numbers based on use of
planetary bases, mother ships, etc. But no one in the UFO
community has done that as far as I know. And it doesn't stop
there with just changing SETI's bad numbers. It goes beyond just
one ETH model and one set of numbers, but must incorporate an
array of ETH submodels of different possible purposes and
behaviors.

The interesting thing about theoretical models is that even if
you start with really bad off-the-wall numbers, once you have
created the analytical framework for sorting out the confusion
into some clearer thinking, anyone can come along later with
better data for better numbers and the framework will already be
there, the wheel won't have to be reinvented again. Just replace
the numbers not the whole framework (unless it needs to be, of
course). Every idea has consequences, testable consequences.
Once a model has been set down a lot of other implications can
be logically derived which yield inferences or may lead to new
unforeseen conclusions that might be capable of being tested in
unexpected ways.

For example, take the Recon Model of ETH. I'm not doing a
rigorous model only a "plausibility argument" for purposes of
illustration. I do not have the spare time to work this all out.
As I've said we really need a hundred Nobel-caliber talented
scientists working full-time on UFOs. But we can build
something if we focus on smaller bite-sized problems that are
solvable. Anyway I estimate on the order of say 5,000 UFOs
sighted in the quarter century of ostensible AF filekeeping on
UFOs, so make that very roughly 200 sightings per year.

The Stealth concept would say that most such reconnaissance UFO
vehicles would never be detected and only say 1% are detected by
accident or chance (there's a number, the 1%, that can be
replaced with a better number someday if someone else comes
along who has a better grip on this and can come up with one;
right now the 1% figure will do just fine for the time being;
this exercise is like the inputting of numbers into the Drake
Equation in SETI, the numbers can be improved upon with time and
research).

Now we would say that means there must really be 20,000 UFO
events per year and we just don't see them all, we just see the
1%, because of alien "stealth." However, we run into
consequences that are testable: If the aliens are using
"stealth" for UFOs as recon vehicles then this means we should
usually only catch glimpses when the UFOs do not seem to "want
to be seen" and we should see signs of furtive behaviors and
attempted concealment, something that can be tested against UFO
sighting databases and even statistically analyzed.

We should also find lots more UFOs in the more specialized
sensor instruments that can penetrate the "stealth" (perhaps
inadvertently) because they "see" in different parts of the
spectrum (or whatever) and fewer in casual human witness
sightings, etc. That is then still another testable UFO research
idea that comes out of our ETH modeling. As a result of this
hypothesis-testing exercise we might come to the tentative
conclusion that at least with the numbers we've got maybe the
UFOs are not alien vehicles on a recon mission because we have
too many UFO sightings (recall one of Vallee's 5 arguments
against ETH) and they don't show enough effort to act like they
are engaged in concealment, but even seem to be trying to put on
a display (another idea that can be modeled and numerically or
statistically tested). Ideally a big decision tree could be
constructed out of this reasoning process, with many branches of
possible ETH behaviors and explanations of purpose, and outcomes
of various attempts to test the ideas.

The debunkers might jump in here to say this just means that
UFOs themselves have been proven not to exist by this ETH
exercise, but we have to resist giving in to such illogical
nonsense, and just go on about our work building better theories
of ETH (and other explanations besides ETH). So now we test
other ETH models and see if they fare better than the Recon
Model (for example I already mentioned the "display" concept). A
record needs to be laid down of this step-by- step process of
thinking and argument. Tpically it's done in a cumulative body
of scientific literature. And that requires that the UFO
researchers involved stay on top of the literature and take
advantage of every worthy idea even if it comes from hostile
sources such as SETI types, and not keep reinventing the wheel
and rearguing the same controversies that were already decided
long ago (e.g., we keep having to reargue the issue of UFO cases
requiring screening for IFO's/hoaxes first before being
categorized as "UFOs"; the UFO community keeps wanting to ignore
Hynek and Vallee to shift the burden of proof and declare that
all UFO cases no matter how flimsy or dubious shall be deemed
"UFOs" right from the start!).

>I have read all
>sorts of anti-UFO arguments, none especially cogent, in that
>literature; but if one mounts an argument like yours, I haven't
>seen or heard of it. My not-uninformed impression is that for
>the SETI types, the lack of modeling is not the reason for their
>refusal to consider UFO evidence, and you're advancing a
>criticism of ufology that not even the standard debunking
>critics advance.

Phil Klass has spent a lifetime of "advancing" various alleged
ETH behaviors to debunk the existence of the UFO phenomenon
(with the illogical unstated or hidden premise that only the ETH
can be the explanation and only his silly formulation of ETH can
"obviously" be used), but usually he fails to put any numbers in
his argument. On occasion he has made some semi-quantitative
predictions where it is unclear whether he is testing ETH or
some general theory of debunkery, and he is always proven wrong.
E.g., he predicted in 1969 that UFOs were "pathological science"
that was passing away now that man had landed on the moon and
that there would never again be a mass sighting wave of flap, of
course just a few years later he was proven wrong by the 1973
Flap, so then he switched theories to predicting that UFO
publicity in the media is what triggers UFO flaps, but then the
mass publicity in the media over the CE III and ET movies, the
greatest box office hits up to that time, in 1977-8 failed to
trigger any UFO flap.

In the RB-47 case Klass postulated that the ET's could not "see"
the ELINT electronic intelligence antennas on the RB-47 jet in
the dark so therefore they could not have known the jet was
susceptible to mimickry of ground-based air defense radars. But
in fact we have ways to detect antennas by reflecting radar
beams off of them, since they "stick out" and are designed to
reflect radio waves, so the ET's would surely be able to do that
too; etc. etc. Yet Klass' ideas on ET mimickry of radar beams
could be tested against data from the RB-47 case and other cases
of UFO-related transmission of radar and radio signals, if one
sat down and thought about it intensively. Theory needs
observation, to stimulate ideas, but the observations need the
theories to prompt the asking of questions no one would have
thought to ask before (such as "how would one know the types of
antennas on an aircraft in the dark?"). Data needs theory. And
theory needs data. One cannot do without the other, if science
is to progress.


Regards,

Brad Sparks







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                        The Truth Is Still Out There

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 22:32:38 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:56:11 -0400
Subject: The Truth Is Still Out There


Source: THe New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/03/opinion/03ginsparg.html?ex=1092667003&ei=1&en=
98090d78a6197c56

08-03-04

The Truth Is Still Out There
By Paul Ginsparg

Ithaca, N.Y.

Stephen Hawking's recent concession that black holes do not
irretrievably eradicate information after all has garnered much
attention. It is refreshing to see the public focused, if just
for a moment, on an important conundrum that has fascinated
theoretical physicists for three decades, and prompted much
conceptual progress. The scientific issues, however, remain much
less settled than Dr. Hawking's celebrated wager on the
question. He most recently pronounced: "If you jump into a black
hole, your mass energy will be returned to our universe, but in
a mangled form, which contains information about what you were
like but in an unrecognizable state."

To appreciate why this is different from awakening after any
night's sleep requires a brief reprise of 20th century physics.
Einstein's theory of general relativity in 1915 was the
culmination of centuries of classical physics, and Einstein and
others soon found solutions to his gravitational field
equations. One of these solutions was later termed a "black
hole" in the 1960's, since it describes the gravitational field
produced by an object so dense that nothing can escape, not even
light. Indeed, the existence of black holes is inferred only
through their gravitational effects on other astronomical
bodies. Stars recently detected orbiting very close to the
center of our own Milky Way galaxy, for example, suggest the
existence of a supermassive black hole at the center, almost
three million times the mass of our sun and about five million
miles in radius. If the mass of the entire Earth were compressed
into a black hole, it would be a little ball only a third of an
inch in radius. Fortunately, the Earth is in no imminent danger
of collapse because of the electrostatic repulsion of its
constituent atoms.

Quantum mechanics, which describes the behavior of very small
objects like atoms, blossomed a decade after general relativity,
and the two are notoriously difficult to reconcile. Thirty years
ago, Dr. Hawking published a calculation incorporating some
quantum mechanical effects into black hole physics, and showed
that matter or energy could leak from a black hole. While
surprising, this was not paradoxical since there are examples of
processes forbidden by classical physics but allowed by quantum
mechanics. Shortly afterward, however, Dr. Hawking articulated a
more shocking consequence of his calculation.


One of the central tenets of relativity theory, termed
causality, is that nothing, not even information, can travel
faster than the speed of light. This means that as long as a
black hole exists, no information about objects that had fallen
into it can ever emerge. Therefore, according to Dr. Hawking's
original calculation, the radiation emitted quantum mechanically
from a black hole is generic, in the sense that it conveys no
information. Further, if a black hole were permitted to
evaporate entirely, then the information content of any objects
previously ingested by it would vanish from the universe,
without a trace. By contrast, if you throw your diary into a
fireplace, then the information contained therein could be
reconstructed, at least in principle, from subtle properties of
the resulting smoke and flames. A permanent loss of information
because of black hole evaporation, on the other hand, is in
contradiction with one of the central tenets of quantum
mechanics, termed unitarity, which permits tracking information
flow in all such processes and forbids its disappearance.

In the early 1980's, I was fortunate to attend some of Dr.
Hawking's lectures in which he speculated on ways to modify
quantum mechanics to accommodate this potential loss of
information. He stimulated much debate among quantum field
theorists, who in turn enjoyed working to rebut his arguments.
The black hole information paradox thereby emerged as an
important catalyst toward further theoretical progress in
reconciling gravitational and quantum effects. Despite many new
ideas and progress on other fronts, no definitive resolution
emerged.

Near the end of a small meeting I attended in 1993, the question
of "What happens to information that falls into a black hole?"
arose, and a democratic method was chosen to address it. The
vote proceeded more or less along party lines, with the general
relativists firm in their adherence to causality, and the
quantum field theorists equally adamant in their faith in
unitarity. Of the 77 participants, 25 voted for the category
"It's lost;'' and 39, a slight majority, voted for "It comes
out,'' (that it re-emerges). Seven voted that the black hole
would not evaporate entirely, and the remaining six voted for an
unspecified "Something else." I voted with the majority,
anticipating progress and hoping that one of us would soon
perform a calculation to help Dr. Hawking and the relativists
see the light. But with the question still unresolved four years
later, three of the protagonists eschewed the old political
duel-to-the-death methodology for a variety of practical
reasons, settling instead on a simple wager whose unsatisfying
outcome was announced last month.

It once was that important scientific results were presented to
the general public only after they were subjected to peer review
and accepted for publication in an edited journal. Some
professional journals, particularly in medicine, still refuse to
publish results that have already been announced via press
release. Since the early 1990's, articles in many fields have
nonetheless been publicly available in "prepublication" form
through organized Internet repositories, a type of instant
communication frequently concurrent with peer review.

The recent "resolution" of the information puzzle, however, has
neither supporting publication nor calculation, peer-reviewed or
otherwise. While a press release may be sufficient in some
realms of human endeavor, one of the joys of scientific research
is that it is subject to more objective measures of progress. It
is possible that some new revolutionary mechanism to avoid
information loss will yet emerge from the latest spectacle. But
without even a hint yet as to what might have been missing from
Dr. Hawking's original calculation, it is more likely that
theoretical physicists will continue to view the information
paradox as a profound puzzle whose resolution will provide clues
to understanding the basic laws of physics.

String theory, a parallel quantum gravitational effort over the
past 30 years, offers many tantalizing hints toward possible
resolution of the puzzle. Perhaps some of its ideas have
subconsciously persuaded Dr. Hawking to join the quantum
conservation of information camp. But should we ultimately be
more inclined to trust Dr. Hawking's past youthful intuition?
Physicists, particularly eminent British ones, have a historical
tendency to stray in excessively speculative directions in their
later years. A bigger surprise may yet await us, and those who
voted for "Something else'' may prove the most prescient.
Perhaps the real winners of this bet will be some middle-school
students who, inspired by the current hoopla, will help provide
a more substantive answer a decade from now.

Paul Ginsparg, professor of physics and information science
at Cornell University, was named aMacArthur fellow in 2002.


Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company






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              Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 23:13:55 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 10:06:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 01:25:39 EDT
>Subject: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes

>This reminds me that since the Soviet Union collapsed
>shouldn't  their former top secret UFO information have come
>to light by now? Why is it every country on Earth seems to
>have an equally effective 'hush up' campaign or am I wrong on
>this?


Take note:

Research Institute on Anomalous Phenomena, Kharkiv Ukraine

http://www.geocities.com/riap777/index.html

=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------






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                             UFO Sightings Rise

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 06:23:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 10:11:16 -0400
Subject: UFO Sightings Rise


Source: The Winnipeg Sun

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/WinnipegSun/News/2004/08/05/569335.html

08-05-04


UFO Sightings Rise

Increase Puzzles Local Researcher

By Chris Kitching
Staff Reporter

There's something fishy going on in Manitoba's skies.
Unidentified flying object (UFO) sightings in the Keystone
Province are nearing an all-time high, according to an
independent group that investigates and records reported
sightings across Canada.

More than 50 have already been counted so far this year, double
the 25 sightings recorded in 2003, said Winnipegger Chris
Rutkowski, co-ordinator of Ufology Research of Manitoba. The
most sightings in one year in Manitoba was 74 in 1993.

The reason for the increase is just as puzzling as details of
some of the sightings, Rutkowski said. In July, two people
driving along Highway 6 near Ponton, south of Thompson, saw two
bright, orange-coloured lights zoom across the early morning
sky.

"The first one rose up out of the bush beside the road and flew
in front of them, a second ball of light came across the road
and then both flew away," Rutkowski said. "A woman (in the car)
said they were very frightened."

Winnipeggers have reported seeing "round patches of light"
chasing each other in the sky above the northeast corner of the
city, Rutkowski said.

"I suspect it's some sort of (spotlight) advertising mechanism,"
he said.

That sighting is one of more than 400 that have been reported by
Canadians up until the end of last month, a large jump compared
with last year's total of 300 during the same period, Rutkowski
said.

One of his favourite sightings is from Caraquet, N.B., where odd
pairs of lights were spotted in January above a highway.

"One person reported seeing something with two or three lights
and some sort of structure attached to it," Rutkowski said.
"That area seemed to be quite a UFO hot spot this winter."

Canada is on pace to top last year's total of 670 sightings, the
most recorded in one year, he said. Most UFO sightings can be
attributed to natural phenomena or human activity.

"There's a small percentage that we simply don't have
explanations for. We can't say they're alien spacecrafts because
we don't have that proof," Rutkowski said.

"There's probably life out there somewhere but whether it can
come all the way here is the big question."







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                   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 08:46:53 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 10:15:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 22:53:02 +0100
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 19:01:25 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 14:41:56 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>Others have said that anybody could have found out from the
>>Truman Library that WB Smith's only meeting with Truman over a
>>several month period was the 01 August , 1950, date noted in the
>>EBD. But did they? I asked the TL if anybody else had asked for
>>dates of their meetings. The answer was NO. In other words could
>>have, might have, etc, are not the same as did.

>Is this supposed to prove nobody could have found the Aug,1,
>1950 date, unless he were an insider?

I didn't say nobody could have. Obviously you have shown no
evidence that anybody did.

Please read my discussion about this in my Final Report on
Operation Majestic 12, pp 41,42. You provide not the slightest
evidence that there is a forger. Obviously you don't understand
how the Truman Library and other Archives work.


>The forger had no need to ask the library archivist for dates of
>the Truman-Smith meetings. He simply requested the Truman
>appointments for, say, June 1949 to Nov. 1950. He did the
>research himself, discovered the August 1, 1950 meeting and
>found that it was the only such meeting for the period in
>question. He then inserted that date in the Ike briefing memo.
>This would have been long before you visited the library.

>Thus no insider was involved.

>There must be numerous historians who used the Truman diaries
>for this period. No archivist could possibly remember which of
>them did what, nor would the library disclose the names of
>previous visitors (unless by police or court order I presume).


This is frankly absurd. We are talking about a huge collection
of daily calendars. "Please send me (obviously too much trouble
to visit) the listings of all the meetings Truman had over the
period of time?" Next you will be saying that the supposed
forger asked for and received a computer listing way back when.
People still go to the Presidential archives asking that MJ-12
be put in their computer and give them a list. The files are not
computerized. "Feel free to come here, register, select which
boxes you want to review on the basis of one of the many finding
aids, then after a cart with a limited number of boxes is
provided,review them and Now (not back then) copy what you want."
The Ike Library has 11 finders aids for NSC material alone.

I was at the Truman Library before 1980 when working on Roswell.
Much info can only be gained by going there. I asked if the
information I asked for had been provided to anybody else. I
didn't ask for the name of the person to whom it had been
provided.I know how the place works. Obviously you don't. Could,
would, should, might ad nauseum. Ever hear of the word evidence?

You are talking about an absurd science fiction scenario having
no basis other than your mixed up imagination. Find a publisher,
but let's not pass this off as research.


Stan Friedman







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                      Turkish UFO Hoax No Joking Matter

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 10:21:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 10:21:59 -0400
Subject: Turkish UFO Hoax No Joking Matter





Source: Turks.Us

http://www.turks.us/article.php?story040805062058178

08-05-04


UFO Hoax No Joking Matter

When Erzurum Governor Mustafa Malay was visited by Concert
Organizer Mustafa Karadeniz with a plan for a UFO hoax during a
concert to promote Palandoken Mountain and to help the Police
Association, it must have seemed like a good idea.

Malay told journalists that the Police Department, the
municipality government and the Governor's Office were aware of
the hoax, noting that the concert organizers were to fly a
balloon carrying lights near Palandoken Mountain during the
concert. He said the hoax also included a singer fainting during
the concert and another few missing after the concert.

Malay must have felt like he was a select few who were in the
hoax when the news about the UFO and the fainting singer
appeared on television on Tuesday night. Almost all of Turkey
was glued to their TVs, trying to uncover the mystery. After the
economic and political hardships the people have been through in
the last few years and being sick and tired of waiting for the
European Union to accept them, the Turkish people were ready for
anything. Maybe the aliens could turn the economy around. There
might even have been a few politicians preparing an application
for Turkey to enter the inter-galactic alliance the aliens
belonged to. They were ready to believe. They were seeking
answers only Fox Mulder could have provided.

However, the people watching their TVs were not the only ones
tricked. When Erzurum Police Department deputy-chief Ahmet
Demiral was told that five singers and a journalist went missing
after the UFO sighting, he took it very seriously and was not
too pleased to learn that it was a hoax.

Demiral said: "This joke is no joking matter. Some guy comes and
files a missing persons report. As a policeman, I have to take
this seriously. I announced the matter to all policemen in the
city. What if something like this happens tomorrow and I don't
take it seriously. What will happen to me? No one told me
anything about the hoax. If they knew about it, they should have
made it public?"

Erzurum Mayor Ahmet Kucukler was also informed about the hoax.
He said someone had paid a visit and told him that they were
preparing a show, adding: "We were not involved in it. I knew
nothing about the details."

During a concert on Tuesday night in Erzurum, those watching the
show panicked after seeing an object in the air and a singer,
Filiz Karakas, reportedly fainted.

Later on, the manager of the singers, Semih Genel reported to
the police and gendarmerie that five singers and a journalist,
who wanted to see the UFO up close, went missing.

When these six missing people are found, they will probably wish
they were abducted by aliens.







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                   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:07:12 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 10:31:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:25:35 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 22:53:02 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 19:01:25 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>>>Others have said that anybody could have found out from the
>>>Truman Library that WB Smith's only meeting with Truman over a
>>>several month period was the 01 August , 1950, date noted in the
>>>EBD. But did they? I asked the TL if anybody else had asked for
>>>dates of their meetings. The answer was NO. In other words could
>>>have, might have, etc, are not the same as did.

>>Is this supposed to prove nobody could have found the Aug,1,

>>The forger had no need to ask the library archivist for dates of
>>the Truman-Smith meetings. He simply requested the Truman
>>appointments for, say, June 1949 to Nov. 1950. He did the
>>research himself, discovered the August 1, 1950 meeting and
>>found that it was the only such meeting for the period in
>>question. He then inserted that date in the Ike briefing memo.
>>This would have been long before you visited the library.

>>Thus no insider was involved.

>>There must be numerous historians who used the Truman diaries
>>for this period. No archivist could possibly remember which of
>>them did what, nor would the library disclose the names of
>>previous visitors (unless by police or court order I presume).

>Cogent beyond reproach.

Cogent? Absurd as noted in my response. Exactly the approach a
forger would use

>if he wanted the document to be "verifiable". Particularly
>clever if the forger knew the recipient (Moore) would do the
>research... or have associate(s) who would.

Really? Are you an expert at document forging? I take it this
same forger also went to the Eisenhower Library, the National
Archives,the Library of Congress Manuscript Division, the
Harvard Archives,( etc etc)The Ike Library has 15 million
pages.The National Archives Record Group 341(USAF HQ files
through about 1957) had about 9800 feet of material or about
1000 filing cabinets worth. They bring you boxes. You don't go
in the files.

>Since the documents originated in someone's mailbox and not in
>any official archive, and since they clearly serve as an
>indictment of the government as complicit in a lie, and since
>our justice system provides for presumption of innocence, the
>presumption must be that the documents are fantasy. The burden
>is on those that claim them to be real. And so.....

The documents originated in someones mail box?? Manufactured by
an elf with nothing better to do? The Cutler Twining memo was
found in Box 189 of Entry 267 of RG 341.

The EBD and TF were on a roll of film shot in the 1983-84 time
frame according to the numbers on the side of the film

>The MJ-12 documents are plainly too tainted to accept at face
>value. Decades of attempts to authenticate them have proven
>fruitless without fundamental conjecture (proclamation).In
>fact, much of the evidence used to support the case also support
>the alternative. These attempts fail to prove beyond a
>preponderance of the evidence that the documents are genuine, or
>anything beyond the capabilities of an informed forger who knew
>exactly to whom the documents should be "leaked".

>As a "civil" matter, the case for the MJ-12 documents fails.

>Likewise, the MJ-12 documents neither bear on the question of
>what actually happened at Roswell and vicinity in 1947, nor on
>the integrity of those who worked to confirm the documents'
>veracity.

>Let us apply this kind of investigatory vigor and scientific
>mind-set to more contemporary cases...cases on which time and
>deceit have yet to have deleterious effect.

When did you become a judge? How much evidence have you provided
for the prosecution? The taint is from the attackers who make up
charges as they go along.

According to the Questioned document community, those who claim
that a document is a fraud have the burden of proof on them.

I think I should cross the fence and become a sniper instead of
a target. No need to visit archives, no need to wade through a
multitude of boxes of documents, no need to wait for years to
get responses to Manadatory Classification Review requests. No
need to find people who may be able to provide first hand
testimony about the people and offices involved. No need to
consult with archivists, no need to provide evidence. Just sit
back in my armchair and create scenarios. When one is shot down,
provide another.

Soon I shall provide a detailed review concerning attacks on the
CT  memo. I have written literally hundreds of pages about the
documents and travelled tens of thousands of miles and spent a
ton of money. You guys sit in your armchairs and do your
research by proclamation. For shame.


Stan Friedman







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                          Re: ETH Modeling - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 08:14:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 10:34:22 -0400
Subject: Re: ETH Modeling - Clark


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:49:07 -0500
>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:16:32 -0500
>>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

<snip>

>The "debunkers" as you call "them" would rely on the lack of
>scientifically testable models because they inherently cannot be
>"debunked". "They" would never use this lack to further "their"
>more "evil" motives. Far better to inflame the tender egos of
>the "believers" and obfuscate the debate... or reduce it to
>name-calling.

Since I do not know you - and, moreover, have no idea what you
think or do not think about UFOs - my remarks had nothing to do
with you, so I am at a loss to understand why you've decided to
take it personally and injected yourself into commentary that
was addressed to no particular individual.

I would, however, encourage you to go easy with the scare
quotes. Nouns such as "debunkers" and "believers," pronouns such
as "them" and "they", and adjectives such as "debunked" and
"evil" do not require quotation marks, unless they're being
quoted - as, I gather, they are not in your remarks above.


Jerry Clark







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                    Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 07:08:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 10:44:40 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos - Shell


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 21:32:02 +0000
>Subject: Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos

>Nothing is a "UFO" until some extensive investigation
>has been conducted and no obvious mundane answer is found.

Well, it's unidentified, and appears to be flying. I'm assuming
its an object and not a camera defect, since it appears in four
different photos. My personal under-educated guess is that its
one of the Martian moons, although I would expect it to line up
a bit better with infinity in the stereo view than it does.

How about "AYUOTMBAUFO?" for As Yet Univestigated Objected That
May Be A UFO?







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                    Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 07:21:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 10:52:38 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos - Shell


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:24:24 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos

>>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:52:34 -0500
>>Subject: New Mars Rover UFO Photos

>>Always nice to get something showing up in the sky of Mars,
>>since it makes it so much easier to dismiss birds, planes,
>>Superman, etc.

><snip>

>This is obviously a blemish or aberration of the lens. If you do
>a blink between the two Left Navigation Cameras you will see
>this speck is in exactly the same position relative to the image
>even though the camera is looking in different directions.

See? That's why I come to you guys. It was interesting to me,
because it didn't seem to show up in other photos and seemed to
change position from one stereo pair to the next. Going right to
left. But I see what you're getting at now.

I'll keep an eye out for this little spot again.

Hey, how long are these rovers going to last, anyway? Aren't
they just about dead yet, with Mars winter creeping up on them?







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                    Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 08:34:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 10:55:04 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos - Groff


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 21:32:02 +0000
>Subject: Re: New Mars Rover UFO Photos

>>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:52:34 -0500
>>Subject: New Mars Rover UFO Photos

<snip>

>The photos look like a Mogul balloon crash site. ;-)

>But "UFO?" I can't get excited by a pinpoint dot in any film
>image, which could be just about anything... unless it does
>something UFOlike (as established by me and others over the
>years) such as hover, then change position rapidly, dart to and
>fro, and all the other firmly established patterns which provide
>a meaningful definition of "UFO".  A semantical problem,
>perhaps, but an important distinction. Nothing is a "UFO" until
>some extensive investigation has been conducted and no obvious
>mundane answer is found.

Hi Dick,

In case you didn't read my reply to Tim, I did a simple "blink"
analysis of the images.

If you flip back and forth between the two left navigation
camera images you'll see that the speck is located in exactly
the same place relative to the images. You get the same result
when blinking the right camera images.

This would indicate that something is on the lenses themselves.,
probably a speck of Martian dust.

There was an earlier thread about a Martian UFO caught on either
Spirit or Opportunity (I forget which) but a blink test showed
it to probably be a speck of dust on the lens as well


Terry







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                          Re: ETH Modeling - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:03:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 11:13:01 -0400
Subject: Re:  ETH Modeling - Clark


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 00:45:28 EDT
>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:16:32 -0500
>>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

<snip>

>>Well, Swords's work, as I've stated explicitly several times.

>I've said a number of times now that Swords' latest ETH work I
>can find, his article in your 1998 UFO Encyclopedia (which
>references his own earlier work) does not make any reference to
>testable quantitative ETH modeling by anyone within the UFO
>community, Swords himself included.

See Swords's JUFOS piece, cited in my encyclopedia.

>>More important, however, a question:

>>Where exactly in the SETI literature has someone written that he
>>or she would take the UFO question seriously if ufologists
>>proposed a model of the ETH such as you demand?

>I don't think I ever said there was any such magnanimous SETI
>spirit toward UFOs, but I've said to the contrary that SETI
>takes a hostile, debunking attitude to the UFO phenomenon and
>has modeled ETH usually in a way that tries to debunk UFO
>reality, illogically arguing as if ETH was the only explanation
>and thus if that fails then the whole UFO phenomenon itself does
>not exist. You need to get out of the trap of the "debunker-
>antidebunker" mindset, which only leads to nowhere. Free your
>mind, as they say in The Matrix, from the traps of past cycles
>of hopeless thinking, and sharpen it with more rigorous
>thinking.

Naw, I think I'll stay there, since it's an issue that one can
never entirely get away from, at least at this stage of the UFO
discussion. To pretend, even for the sake of argument, that it
doesn't exist and that it doesn't affect matters at just about
angle is to ignore reality. In any case:

My point was simply that in all my interaction with skeptics,
both sympathetic and hostile, I have never heard a serious
argument - a few frivolous ones, as you note - that rejected
ufology because it had not modeled the ETH. This coming, I
stress, from persons who want us to believe, contrary to the
complex reality of ufology's intellectual history, that ufology
= ETH. The issue has always been the quality of the data. I have
suggested how ufologists could get a hearing by highlighting
immediately investigatable, relatively modest questions, thereby
getting around the huge hurdle, both scientific and p.r., of
ufology = ETH. That's all. Doesn't seem at all unreasonable to
me, and in fact that was an argument the sociologist of science
(and sympathetic skeptic) Marcello Truzzi, no unsophisticated
observer, often made in conversations with me.

The rest of your posting is interesting and thought-provoking as
usual, but not directly relevant to my point, which is that ETH
modeling may be desirable, no doubt, from some perspectives, but
is not crucial to ufology at this stage of its development. I
trust that this is a point on which ufologists may honorably
disagree, and that since we have made ourselves clear
repeatedly, we need not repeat ourselves yet again.


Cordially,

Jerry Clark







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                 Canada On Pace To Top UFO Sightings Record

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 02:38:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 02:38:06 -0400
Subject: Canada On Pace To Top UFO Sightings Record




Source: CTV News

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1091744253312_2/?hub=3DS=
ciTech

08-05-04


Canada On Pace To Top UFO Sightings Record

Canadian Press

OTTAWA =97 From a translucent, saucer-shaped object in British
Columbia to mysterious lights buzzing motorists in New
Brunswick, Canadians are on their way to reporting a record-high
number of UFO sightings this year.

More than 400 stories of curious encounters were filed through
the end of July, compared with just over 300 by this time last
year, says Ufology Research of Manitoba, a group that tracks
reports of unidentified flying objects.

At this rate, the total for 2004 will surpass the current record
of 673 sightings reported last year, said Chris Rutkowski,
research co-ordinator for the Winnipeg-based organization.

The group receives reports directly by telephone and e-mail,
from sister agencies that follow the phenomenon, and via federal
departments such as Transport and National Defence.

Rutkowski isn't sure why the numbers are rising, but suspects it
might be linked to public awareness of recent exploratory
missions to intriguing planets such as Mars and Saturn.

"I think there is a resurgence of interest in space," he said
Thursday in an interview.

Dazzling mid-air manoeuvres were a feature of some of the more
dramatic otherworldly episodes.

At a military base in Beaverbank, N.S., on April 23, three
people spotted several lights in the east, including a slow-
moving red one bobbing up and down.

Suddenly, a second red light swooped in, prompting the first one
to climb upwards and fly over it.

In a July 5 incident, a Rosemont, Que., couple saw a very bright
red light moving slowly westward. Travelling much too low to be
an airplane or helicopter, the object plunged to the ground and
disappeared after about a minute.

Two people sitting on a hill in an Edmonton park on June 23
watched four distinct lights hover above them.

"At first they thought it was some sort of satellite," Rutkowski
said.

"But then the lights gathered together, close in the sky, and
spread out again. They would travel in one direction for a while
and then curve back in a very sharp turn in another direction.
And they watched it for 90 minutes."

The Prairies seem to be a hotbed of unexplained activity.

In Alberta, 61 sightings occurred up to the end of July,
compared with 76 in all of last year. There were 50 in Manitoba,
already double the total for 2003, while 19 reports emerged from
Saskatchewan, topping last year's 13.

In a widely reported incident, the pilot of Prime Minister Paul
Martin's plane reported seeing a "very bright light" falling
through the air, with smoke trailing, while the aircraft passed
over Suffield, Alta., on March 21.

Rutkowski believes that while most UFO reports have simple
explanations -- many being meteors -- a small percentage are
puzzling and deserve the attention of scientists. Among notable
sightings recorded this year:

-- A semi-transparent object shaped like a saucer flew over a
witness in Terrace, B.C., in April.

-- Oval patches of light chased each other in the July sky above
Winnipeg.

-- A multicoloured object performed an aerial ballet in June
above Shipshaw, Que. -- During four memorable nights in July,
residents of Dryden, Ont., took in the spectacle of a V-shaped,
metallic craft gliding through the sky.

-- Odd pairs of lights zeroed in on motorists in January near
Caraquet, N.B. The sighting was one of many incidents reported
by New Brunswick residents early this year.

Rutkowski says there is "just no explanation for what was going
on at that time."






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                         Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 08:14:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 02:40:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Shell


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:15:21 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>Also don't forget that a couple of garbage can lids duct-taped
>together and hurled through the air could work as well, and
>wouldn't require string or helium.

Yeah, but from my experience they don't have that necessary
atmospheric haze to indicate they're really far away.

>In the case of still photographs, you could "toss and shoot"
>numerous times and later pick out the ones that were most
>convincing.

And blurring.They don't blur correctly. I think I've developed a
pretty good eye for these.

>What would advance this photo case? I'd want to see the original
>negatives bearing sequence numbers, and the permission to make
>one-off enlargements of them in a professional lab.

That would be a big help, although there are ways around that,
too. Rephotographing blow-ups onto a new roll, maybe. Although
if you're going to do that, you might as well fix the background
clouds and clean up any strings while you're at it.

>Without that the case must remain "presumed hoax".

Unfortunately, while the volume of photos may suggest the need
for further investigation, no single photo (or series of photos)
is going to provide that incontrovertible proof good enough to
get on the cover of TIME Magazine.

We'll still need a sweet combination of photos, physical
evidence (preferably in the form of an alien being), confirmed
analyses from government and independent sources, expert
testimony, high-ranking government testimony, and public
displays in major cities worldwide.

I always said in my more ultra-skeptical moments, that I want
the same proof for non-terrestrial life exsisting as I do for
proving the chair I'm sitting on exists. Unfortunately, if these
things don't exist in quite the same reality I do (or my chair),
that might be difficult. Still, it's something to shoot for.






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                Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 08:21:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 02:42:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Shell


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:04:39 -0700
>Subject: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites

>Source: BBC News

>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3530748.stm

>"One of the top places in the world to find meteorites is North
>America, due to its featureless landscape, which allows the
>meteorites to be spotted easily. Therefore, looking in similar
>landscapes in the UK could also be lucrative," says Dr
>Greenwood.

Yeah, those Rocky Mountains are not much of a feature.Two or
three feet high at the most. Easy to find meteorites there. You
can pick 'em up by the handful.







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                          Secrecy News -- 08/05/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:34:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 02:45:30 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/05/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 74
August 5, 2004


**      CHENEY BLOCKED INTELLIGENCE REFORM IN 1992
**      NEW RESTRICTIONS ON PUBLIC ACCESS AT NRC, NASA, FCC, ETC
**      HOWARD MORLAND RECALLS THE PROGRESSIVE CASE
**      THE NETHERLANDS: NOT SO OPEN
**      THE CLASSIFIED COST OF ALUMINUM TUBES
**      TIME OUT


CHENEY BLOCKED INTELLIGENCE REFORM IN 1992

Some of the most important intelligence reforms proposed by the
9-11 Commission, including the creation of a Director of
National Intelligence (DNI), might have been adopted over a
decade ago if not for the opposition of the Secretary of Defense
at the time, Dick Cheney.

In a March 1992 letter to Congress, Secretary Cheney defended
the status quo and objected to proposed intelligence reform
legislation, particularly the DNI position.

"The roles of the Secretary of Defense and the Director of
Central Intelligence have evolved in a fashion that meets
national, departmental and tactical intelligence needs," Cheney
wrote.

The intelligence reform proposals "would seriously impair the
effectiveness of this arrangement by assigning inappropriate
authority to the proposed Director of National Intelligence
(DNI), who would become the director and manager of internal DoD
activities that in the interest of efficiency and effectiveness
must remain under the authority, direction, and control of the
Secretary of Defense," he wrote.

A companion letter from the DoD General Counsel elaborated on
Secretary Cheney's objections, complaining that the intelligence
reform proposal would "give the DNI far more extensive authority
and responsibility for program and budget matters than is now
exercised by the DCI," which is indeed the whole point.

Secretary Cheney successfully torpedoed the initiative with his
warning that "I would recommend that the President veto [the
measure] if [it] were presented to him in its current form."

In fairness, it was not obvious, then or now, that the DNI
concept is the best or only solution to what ails U.S.
intelligence. And it would be surprising if a Secretary of
Defense did anything other than protect his institutional turf.

But Cheney's unyielding opposition stifled the first initiative
for post-Cold War intelligence reform. As a result, we now face
many of the same problems, and the same proposed solutions, more
than a decade later.

See Secretary Cheney's March 17, 1992 letter to House Armed
Services Committee chairman Les Aspin here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_cr/cheney1992.pdf

Thanks to Robert Steele of Open Source Solution (www.oss.net),
which advocates establishment of an independent open source
intelligence agency.


NEW RESTRICTIONS ON PUBLIC ACCESS AT NRC, NASA, FCC, ETC

New barriers to public access to government information are now
rising with extraordinary frequency.

While any one of them is probably of interest to only a limited
community of concern, collectively they represent an ongoing
mutation of American political culture in favor of secret rule
by bureaucracy.

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission announced yesterday that
"certain security information formerly included in the Reactor
Oversight Process will no longer be publicly available, and will
no longer be updated on the agency's web site." See:

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/news/2004/04-091.html

New controls may be imposed starting October 1 on space
surveillance data (orbital elements) that are currently made
available on the NASA web site. See this notice:

http://www.celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/notice.shtml

And at the request of the Department of Homeland Security, the
Federal Communications Commission yesterday agreed to restrict
public access to reports of telecommunications disruptions, CQ
Homeland Security reported today.

DHS argued that information about communications outages could
provide -- what else? -- "a roadmap for terrorists."

"The commission concluded that the information needs to be not
routinely available for public inspection, and the commission is
treating all outage reports filed as being presumptively
confidential under the Freedom of Information Act," FCC official
Kent Nilsson told CQ Homeland Security.

Meanwhile, "Nearly 600 times in recent years, a judicial
committee acting in private has stripped information from
reports intended to alert the public to conflicts of interest
involving federal judges," the Washington Post reported today,
citing a new Government Accountability Office report:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40982-2004Aug4.html


HOWARD MORLAND RECALLS THE PROGRESSIVE CASE

In the late 1970s, activist and freelance writer Howard Morland
decided to investigate "the secret of the H-Bomb" and wrote an
article about his findings in The Progressive magazine. In a
landmark case, the government moved to block publication of his
article, claiming that it contained classified information. It
was eventually published anyway.

Morland's quest was not universally admired, even outside of
government. FAS opposed the frontal challenge to the Atomic
Energy Act, concerned that it would set an adverse precedent,
which it did.

But the case also raised fundamental issues about the boundaries
of government control of information, the nature of nuclear
secrecy, and the ability of individual citizens to challenge
authority.

Morland recalled his experience in a March 2004 symposium at the
Cardozo School of Law at Yeshiva University marking the 25th
anniversary of the The Progressive case. See the text of his
lecture, abundantly illustrated, here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/cardozo.html


THE NETHERLANDS: NOT SO OPEN

While it's true that Dutch intelligence (AIVD) routinely
publishes its budget and US intelligence so far does not, as
noted in Secrecy News yesterday, that must be the only area
where the Netherlands surpasses the US in openness, journalist
Ton Biesemaat advised.

"I can assure you that the level of openness in the USA is far
greater then in The Netherlands. For example, in the States
archives are more accessible than over here in the Netherlands.
Every Cold War archive is closed for too-eager journalists even
if you are interested in things which occurred 40 or 50 years
ago. Not always are things so nice as you see them in such a
controlled publication as the annual report of the AIVD. So I
regret to say that the American degree of public access to
archives is still denied to another democratic country, the
Kingdom of The Netherlands," wrote Mr. Biesemaat.


THE CLASSIFIED COST OF ALUMINUM TUBES

The cost of the aluminum tubes that were controversially
acquired by Iraq was deleted by CIA classification reviewers
from one page of the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report
on pre-war intelligence on Iraq.

But the very same information was disclosed on another page.

Thus, on page 96, it is noted that "Iraqi agents agreed to pay
up to [deleted] for each 7075-T6 aluminum tube. Their
willingness to pay such costs suggests the tubes are intended
for a special project of national interest."

Then, on page 115, the report states: "Iraqi agents agreed to
pay up to U.S. $17.50 each for the 7075-T6 aluminum tube. Their
willingness to pay such costs suggests the tubes are intended
for a special project of national interest."

It hardly needs to be pointed out that the Iraqis know what they
agreed to pay, the tube vendors know what they agreed to pay,
and those who monitor such transactions at the IAEA and
elsewhere know what they agreed to pay.

So the flawed at attempt at classifying the information serves
no purpose except, optimistically, to motivate efforts towards
classification reform.

Thanks to political scientist Christopher L. Ball of Iowa State
University who spotted the inconsistency.

The two pages from the Senate report, along with the title page,
are posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2004_rpt/tubes.pdf

The full report may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2004_rpt/index.html


TIME OUT

The next issue of Secrecy News will appear the week of
August 23.



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691







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                 East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 03:06:52 -0400
Subject: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings


Source: The Daily Gleaner - Kingston, Jamaica

October 25, 1954


Visitors from outer space may be mapping earth

By Ronald Batchelor
Reuters Correspondent


Nairobi

Visitors from outer space are probably observing and mapping the
Earth and have directing their recent attentions to East
Africa.

That, at any rate, is the considered opinion of one of the
leading astronomers in this area, the vice-president of Kenya
Astronomical Association, Mr. G. Duncan Fletcher.

He put forward this startling and eerie suggestion after a
deluge of reports from scores of observers throughout East
Africa, who claim to have seen "flying saucers."

These reports have flooded newspapers offices in the three East
African territories of Uganda, Kenya and Tanganyika.

Europeans, Asians and Africans claimed to have seen objects in
the sky: stationary; zooming over the horizon; changing colour
from white to red, blue and green; elliptical in shape and
elongated with upright projections at either end.

First reports of "flying saucers" came from Dar-es-Salaam,
capital of Tanganyika on the Indian Ocean coast, and were
quickly followed by "sightings" at Mombasa, Kampala and this
city.

Here, in Nairobi, citizens telephoned local police stations to
say that they had spotted "saucers" circling the suburbs. More
than one police patrol car, sent to investigate, reported
following the course of "mysterious bright objects" in the
sky. Two Europeans on duty at the international airport here
observed an "aerial object" through bin0culars.

Mr. Fletcher says that he has recently observed something in the
sky over Nairobi from his well-equipped observatory here.

"It was about 7:40 p.m. that I had four friends in my
observatory," he says. "Very low and towards the east, there was
a large light in the sky which had no relationship to anything
as- tronomical, to Verey lights or to the aircraft which had
just landed at the airport."

The altitude of Mr. Fletcher's "object" was about 2,000 feet,
was stationary when first spotted by himself and his four
companions and "emmited a bright orange light." This light
brightened to a yellowish colour and the object rose, dropped
and then rose again, finally disappearing through the clouds, he
states.

Mr Fletcher says that he thinks there is no question about the
genuineness of reports about "flying saucers," which "have been
given by very experienced observers" in all parts of the world.

"Not all the American and British people who have seen these
unidentified flying objects have been suffering from
hallucinations," he declares.

The most encouraging thing about reports of unidentified flying
objects (or U.F.O. as they are labelled officially here), Mr.
Fletcher avers, is that "they seemed to be friendly towards the
people of this planet."

"From all the information which is available they are steadily
mapping every part of our Earth," he concludes

Countless reasons, he believes - and he cites Dr. F. Hoyle,
Professor of Astro-Physics at Cambridge and Sir James Jeans -
can be offered as to why there should be many more planets, or
bodies, in the universe capable of supporting life.

Probably this life would differ enormously from life as known on
Earth. "It is possible that whereas we need oxygen and other
elements to support life on this planet, entirely different
elements may be supporting life on others," Mr. Fletcher
declares. "Indeed, the forms of life could be completely
different from any that we can imagine."

Whether the beings now visiting the Earth from outer space are
short or tall, have blood in their veings, or whether they have
veins at all, will have to await their contact with human beings
here," he says, inferring that "Outer Space Men" will one day
decide to land their "machines" and attempt to communicate with
Earth men.

It may be sheer coincidence, Mr. Fletcher says, but he points
out that these other beings seem to have been interested in
activities on Earth since the time of the first atomic explosion
about seven years ago.

"There does not seem to be any doubt that they are miles ahead
of us in their methods of propulsion, and reports have been made
by observers who have seen these unidentified flying objects
over atomic plants, dockyards, airfields, naval bases and some
of the larger cities of the world," he says.

"Their approach to us is, I suggest, similar to what our own
approach would be if the shoe were on the other foot [illegible
word] we were to visit Venus, I don't think until we had made
every possible investigation we would land.

The obvious thing is that we should map, photograph if possble
and carry out a thorough investigation before we [illegible
word] risked life by hasty [illegible word] it is not
unreasonable, therefore, that whatever controls the unidentified
flying objects is doing exactly that."

Mr. Fletcher is convinced that the objects come from outer
space and declares that "their behaviour cannot be mistaken
for a meteorite which, on coming into contact with our
atmosphere, is pulled at an ever-increasing velocity by gravity
towards the earth. The velocity becomes so great that the
objects burns up because of the intense heat generated by
friction with our atmosphere.

"A meteorite does not turn or hover in the air. Its path is a
parabolic curve similar to that of shell fired from a gun.
Therefore the things which we have seen are undoubtedly
unidentified flying objects."

=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
---------







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              Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:52:37 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 03:53:19 -0400
Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -



There are a few minor transcription errors in my previous
posting of the article from the Kingston Daily Gleaner, 1954.
Corrected text will be posted along with the clipping at my
website, by tomorrow, along with a handful of articles from the
year 1954.

Direct link:

http://anomalies.bravepages.com/post47/53-54/1953-54.htm

Best,
Rod Brock

=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------





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                            UFO Community Bashing

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:34:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 03:57:30 -0400
Subject: UFO Community Bashing


Far too often I'm reading about how the UFO Community is this or
that, disorganized, dispersed, unprofessional, argumentative,
yadda, yadda, yadda.

We've gotta stop this. It's too divisive. This community is
global. It comprises the viewpoints of various cultures and
beliefs and procedures. One of the most diverse groups outside
of 'Star Trek' fans ( yet you won't find Star Trek fans
fighting, we get along! ).

With such a diverse group that's up against great opposition
from the institutions that are sworn to protect and provide,
there're bound to be mistakes, emotionalism, quarrels and such.

Yet bashing the community isn't helping the community. There is
no collective group that doesn't have it's share of conflicts
and this community isn't any different. Well, it is different I
guess because we're trying to make sense from a sea of nonsense
and overlooked common sense.

Antagonism and criticism aren't a good start post for getting
answers and solving mysteries. Basic investigative and
scientific procedure are what's called for. Yes, it's tough but
we have to cut ourselves some slack because to study UFOs you're
facing every physical and social science and it's there no
matter which way you turn. You also have to be knowledgeable of
history and religions, cultures etc. It's the most challenging
field of study I've ever encountered and that's what makes it
good, it keeps you on your toes. Makes you have to study, to
deal with people, their viewpoints and conclusions. Often with
little or no funding to do so. I've seen people go broke trying
to help out in UFOlogy. I've offered help by hooking some of you
up with pals of mine in entertainment. That's what I can
contribute in one area.

So instead of bashing and berating why not just realize we're
all just people (well some of us if you read Hopkins and
Jacobs), and even for those of us that aren't 'just people'
nobody's perfect even those of us who have four lobed brains. :)

Sure there are going to be attacks but those attacks come from
persons with hidden agendas who can't confront, face, deal with
issues that they themselves find threatening or above their
level of competence.

So I'm not going to bunch us all up in one ball and generalise
because it's unfair to the believers and honorable skeptics who
do do the homework.


Best,

Greg







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                      The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:52:04 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 04:16:53 -0400
Subject: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda


This refers to something that came up in another post.

I'm referring to the global dissemination of UFO related stories
and events.

My original query focused on news and data from global sources
like the former USSR.  I had asked that since the fall of the
USSR, why hadn't their top secret UFO files come to light by
now? Surely they've had their share of 'Roswells' and
'Kecksburgs' etc. Why the silence, if there is one?

We're getting stories from various countries but none
groundbreaking enough to shake the gum off our shoes.

So why all the secrecy if any? How is it that every nation on
Earth can cover up the UFO/ETH stuff with such efficiency yet
still can't feed their hungry, stop malaria ( just read 300
million a year get it and 3 million die.. you'd figure we'd
solve this by now  after 10 million years of it. )

Countries that don't have roads can somehow, someway arrive at a
UFO event and hush everyone up and cart away all the evidence?
The only organization on Earth I know of with that much
efficiency and alacrity is Walmart. You open a few acres
anywhere in the world and Walmart will be there in a shot
without breaking a sweat.

Don't the enemies of the U.S. like mainland China, Cuba, the Al
Queda etc. know from the tabloids and websites and radio shows
and newspapers and tv specials that the worst fear of the
western powers is that UFO information might come to the fore?
Wouldn't just one of these opposing powers take a glance around
and find some bit of mindbending proof to shake the foundations
of we 'Evil Americans'?

Iran, Russia, China etc. could wipe us out with just one, count
'em, one great UFO photo, video, even a shin bone.

Why hasn't it happened? Are we looking in the wrong places? are
the billions of communication lines around the world so
efficiently perused by secret government figures that no one can
get an UFO word in edgewise?

Yes, we do get reports but they're far too often the 'fuzzy
picture', 'my cousin's nephew's dentist's sister said' umpteen
twice removed accounts.

Perhaps we need to reach out more. I know the lines are thin and
resources sometimes scarce but I think if all the media folks
from Noory to Bell to Rense to Errol and so forth teamed up and
put that reach out there it would really be a blockbuster of a
force to be reckoned with. It'd be a new news service like no
other because it's what 'the people' are interested in.

Strength in numbers.


Best,

Greg







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                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:08:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 04:21:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - King


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:07:12 -0300
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:25:35 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>When did you become a judge? How much evidence have you provided
>for the prosecution? The taint is from the attackers who make up
>charges as they go along.

>According to the Questioned document community, those who claim
>that a document is a fraud have the burden of proof on them.

>I think I should cross the fence and become a sniper instead of
>a target. No need to visit archives, no need to wade through a
>multitude of boxes of documents, no need to wait for years to
>get responses to Manadatory Classification Review requests. No
>need to find people who may be able to provide first hand
>testimony about the people and offices involved. No need to
>consult with archivists, no need to provide evidence. Just sit
>back in my armchair and create scenarios. When one is shot down,
>provide another.

>Soon I shall provide a detailed review concerning attacks on the
>CTmemo. I have written literally hundreds of pages about the
>documents and travelled tens of thousands of miles and spent a
>ton of money. You guys sit in your armchairs and do your
>research by proclamation. For shame.


Stan,

So, again I am labeled a "debunker" or at least an "attacker".

I feel ashamed, all right. Ashamed that I spent any time at all
commenting on this expecting to be enlightened.

MJ-12 - a subject with only one expert, only one valid opinion,
and only one studied advocate.

Gee Stan, you win.

I wont waste any more time "attacking". That would be absurd.


Kyle







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                           Re: ETH Modeling - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:54:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 04:23:16 -0400
Subject: Re: ETH Modeling - King


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 08:14:35 -0500
>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:49:07 -0500
>>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

><snip>

>>The "debunkers" as you call "them" would rely on the lack of
>>scientifically testable models because they inherently cannot be
>>"debunked". "They" would never use this lack to further "their"
>>more "evil" motives. Far better to inflame the tender egos of
>>the "believers" and obfuscate the debate... or reduce it to
>>name-calling.

>Since I do not know you - and, moreover, have no idea what you
>think or do not think about UFOs - my remarks had nothing to do
>with you, so I am at a loss to understand why you've decided to
>take it personally and injected yourself into commentary that
>was addressed to no particular individual.

>I would, however, encourage you to go easy with the scare
>quotes. Nouns such as "debunkers" and "believers," pronouns such
>as "them" and "they", and adjectives such as "debunked" and
>"evil" do not require quotation marks, unless they're being
>quoted - as, I gather, they are not in your remarks above.


Jerry,

My apologies... I must confess that after reading my post in its
entirety, I included a reaction to another separate post when I
replied to your post.

You noted that Brad was using an argument that even debunkers
don't use. My sole point was that debunkers intentionally do not
suggest what Brad advocates because they don't want science to
interfere with their cottage industry. By inflaming the egos of
the UFO advocates, they reduce the debate to mere name-calling
and ridicule, thereby ensuring that the debate never rises above
their debunking ability.

(I could barely restrain myself from placing quotes around some
of the above terms, but for you... :))

Oh, and my use of the quotation marks was to qualify my use of
the labels I so dislike. Since they are part of the vocabulary
of this field, I am compelled to use them for clarity, but I do
not personally feel that they are representative of the
individuals at which they are aimed. So I am in effect quoting
others when I use them.

The rest of my response actually was intended for a different
post. Please accept my apologies for including it. It had no
bearing on your comments. I must start going to bed before 4AM.
:)

Your post was not offensive to me in any way. I was just
offering my opinion on why the individuals you cite have not
raised Brad's point themselves.

No offense intended.

Sincerely,

Kyle







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                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:48:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 04:25:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 15:43:09 +0000
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 02:49:18 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

<snip>

>>I found Sheryl's data alarming. Good point there too Sandow.

>>Reason for asking about artists  - including all arts from music
>>to literature etc. - is because _if_ this was one criteria for
>>abduction it could mean that because artists communicate in
>>their various ways.

>>Upon retrospect I've realized the abductees I've talked to
>>appear all to be artistic in some way. If not all, I'd say the
>>majority. One fellow, a top jazz musician, I'd like to get to
>>talk more of his experiences but he's reticent to do so publicly
>>anymore.

>>Further study and statistics are required.

>Couldn't that simply be because those are the circles you travel
>in primarily or to a large extent? Various filter factors ar at
>work in our perceptions of this, including your definition of
>"artistic in some way." Wouldn't most of us qualify by that
>definition? Yes, real statistics are needed, professionally
>analyzed.

Hi Dick,

Gotta disagree big time here though I understand your logic.

Although I'm a professional in the arts, the majority of the
people in my circles aren't professional artists although they
are artistic.

The majority of people in my circles are police, scientists,
journalists.

Yet the artists I do hang out with are for the majority ex or
present military and law enforcement. My two best pals in comics
are an ex police officer who became an illustrator and an ex
lieutenant jarhead whose tv shows you've all seen.

I grew up in a military/law enforcement community so the
majority of the contactees I've met there are from those
lifestyles/occupations. Yet the other common denominator is that
they're also artistic to some degree. Music, writing, sculpting
etc.

Which brings to mind one of the hotspots in the Hudson Valley
that people point to as a focal point of UFO activity, Storm
King Mountain.

I couldn't recall the hundreds of people who've told me outright
they've spent many a weekend at the river shore or in the hills
watching UFOs fly in and out of this mountain. I thought they
were nuts. Even the mobster kids would report the same thing as
the cops' kids.

Then I found out there was an art school on top of the mountain.

I don't know if artistic communication is a common denominator
of contact or abduction but it's something worth looking into.


Best,

Greg







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                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 07:23:35 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 04:29:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 15:37:10 -0400
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:07:48 +1000
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>I have found that many of the abductees I have spoken to here
>>in Australia (maybe 250- 300 by now) are artistically
>>inclined, seemingly more so than the average person.

>>They either play musical instruments, sculpt, paint, sing,
>>write (particularly poetry) and follow many other artistic
>>pursuits.

><snip>

>But before any of us, including me, get too sure of what we're
>saying, consider this. When we talk about abductees, there are
>at least three groups of people involved. First, people who've
>had the abduction experience (whatever that is). Second, people
>who are willing to admit that they've had it, or - which I don't
>doubt happens - believe that they've had it, even if they don't
>have specific memories of such a thing. And third, people who
>get involved in organized abduction activities, which includes
>talking to researchers, attending support groups, and doubtless
>other things.

>These could be three distinct groups of people, overlapping
>somewhat, but not completely. Plenty of people, for instance,
>might have the abduction experience and never talk about it to
>anybody. So when we talk about the demographics of "abductees,"
>which group of abduction-related people do we really have
>information about?

><snip>

Greg,

To add to this, people who report their experiences to
researchers are self selecting and may have a peculiarity of
their own yet to be discovered.


Sheryl







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                     Varginha - Gevaerd Bourdais & Pratt

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 17:40:48 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 08:49:40 -0400
Subject: Varginha - Gevaerd Bourdais & Pratt


I have been exchanging info about Varginha with Bob Pratt,
Gildas Bordais and Doc Leir - off-List - to clear the
misunderstandings posted by Gildas. The only misunderstanding is
in Gildas' mind.

The e-mail below clears all questions, I believe, and permission
was specifically granted by Bob for posting to the List.

Thanks,

A. J.

-----

From: Bob Pratt
To: Gevaerd
Cc: Gildas Bourdais
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 8:54 PM
Subject: Varginha...

Hello Gildas.

I have re-read, several times now, all of the exchanges between
Gevaerd and you and others on UFO UpDates, including the
original report in Gevaerd�s Revista UFO, and can honestly say I
do not see where Gevaerd criticized Roger Leir or the doctor in
the Varginha case, or said anything derogatory about anyone
(other than possibly Brad Sparks and his friends).

I think again that the problem is one of language. Gevaerd has
done a magnificent job learning English in the last few years
and probably should have translated Ubirajara�s report himself.
The translator he used, Eduardo Rado, did (as I have said
before) a good job translating but apparently could have done
better; otherwise we might not have had this controversy. What
was meant only to be an article promoting the upcoming UFO
Conference in Varginha turned into a juicy bone that several
rabid, grossly uninformed ufologists tore into.

I have no doubt the Varginha case is a good, solid one. I will
not try to respond to attacks on my Varginha report because I
doubt that anything I or Gevaerd or Roger or Ubirajara say about
the case will ever convince the critics that they might be
wrong.

When Gevaerd was being ironic and even sarcastic with Brad and
the others, I understood immediately what he was saying and why.
It meant nothing regarding the validity of the case. I am sure
that if he had expected his words would be taken as anything
other than irony or sarcasm, he would not have used them.

I believe that saying anything more about this on UFO UpDates
will just prolong the mess.


Best wishes,

Bob









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                   Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed - Taylor

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 12:07:02 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 08:55:25 -0400
Subject: Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed - Taylor


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:08:56 -0500
>Subject: Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed

>>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:02:52 +1000
>>Subject: Re: More Daytime UFOs Videoed


>>Digital zoom is only used momentarily to see if anything useful
>>can be salvaged from the digital zoom images. Sometimes
>>something can. The greater part of the footage is in full
>>optical zoom X40. This is camera max.

>>As far as your comment of "Mylar balloons" I find ridiculous.
>>You must be of the opinion that if a UFO is not disc shaped it
>>must be a balloon. Well hey, wake up to the fact that these
>>objects are genuine UFOs.

>>I do not know what a person has to do to demonstrate this fact
>>other then try to video them when these events are happening,
>>then present the evidence for you viewing. If for one moment I
>>thought they were 'Mylar balloons', I would not waste my time on
>>it.

>>If you continually blatantly 'debunk' the genuine UFO footage
>>Kyle, you will never learn anything about the subject. Maybe
>>this is not you aim. Others with knowledge on the subject and
>>willingness to advance by learning what is being caught on
>>video, will advance in leaps and bounds. Some are.

>>It is 'simple research' just to sit back and blindly comment on
>>something your are inexperienced in, when others are out there on
>>the 'front line' doing the hard yards in gathering evidence. We
>>know what side of the fence you are on.

>>I hope you can learn to 'look before you leap' next time Kyle,
>>it is much more rewarding.

>Oops. My bad. A clearer video would have confirmed the
>obvious... a Mercury-blob shaped, intelligently-meandering craft
>from another planet.

>Forget that there is no evidence that this is anything else,
>because it can be nothing else.

>Since you are the expert here, your rhetoric is sufficient as
>rebuttal.

>I am without argument in the face of such "logic".

>And if you think me a "debunker", you reveal an ignorance that
>is beyond my ability...or desire...to remedy.

>But to enlighten me, please explain the rationale behind the
>behavior of this "UFO".

>And please remind me of where my thesis is in error, rather than
>issue accusatory hyperbole which has no bearing on the
>identification of the object in question.

>If I draw a logically conservative conclusion based on my
>personal experience, and my conclusion differs from your own, is
>it your feeling that accusing me of being a "debunker" lends
>credence to your belief? If so, you deserve sympathy rather than
>acquiescence.

>It's a few Mylar balloons, one or more of which has deflated,
>creating the "dangling" object.

>That's my thesis. I can support it.

>Buy a few balloons, puncture one of them, and set them aloft
>tied together, ands whip out your video cam. There will come a
>moment when the distance is such that your balloons will
>magically transmogrify into an intelligently-meandering,
>mercury-blob shaped craft from another planet.

>Ignorance is bliss... until it is challenged.

You have totally rejected the possibility of these objects being
genuine UFOs without background research into other video of
similar sightings from around the world and using them as
comparisons, or listening to my descriptions about the sighting.
This is called "debunking". You have thrown the baby out with
the bath water.

If you insist on painting this type of genuine UFO that has
been, and will continue to be filmed around the world with the
"Mylar Brush", you are missing the unique opportunity to study
very important UFO evidence.

I wish I had the answers to what these objects are other then
UFO, but I can tell you what they are not. "They are not
balloons". I have received numerous replies from around the
world confirming these same types of UFO have been videoed, and
are indeed UFO.

Positive contribution toward this subject is paramount in
finding answers, you will see fine examples of this by other
members/researchers on this List. Maybe you are on the wrong
list.


Barry Taylor







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               HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings -

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO  <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 14:30:53 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:13:38 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings -


HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings - 08-05-04


Rabun, South Alabama,USA Colored Lights

The next set is from a video I shot in the spring of this year.I
would have to check the time/date stamp on the tape to get an
exact date. It was a clear night and I was headed home down one
of the local county roads, about 3 miles from the house . A
small plane was out in front of me several thousand feet high
when I noticed a red light approaching it. At a distance it
appeared as just a single red light. The red light crossed just
over the top of the small plane and on its present course would
come right over the road ahead. I nailed the gas and managed to
get under it as it crossed the road. Hanging out the driver
window I shot the video which the following frames come from.

HBCC UFO Research Note: The witness is referring to the while
lights which appear in the last few stills on the page.

Below is another set of frames from a video I shot in the front
yard this year. I was standing in the yard when the movement of
light caught my eye, a ball of light coming across the sky right
at my me. I grabbed the camcorder out of the car and started
shooting . At one point it passes by a bright star above.

Thank you to the witness for the report and interesting
pictures.

To view the picture please visit:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1668

-------------------------------

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Possible Scoop Marks?

Here is the picture. The mark is on the front of my right shin.
It is quite a chunk of flesh removed.

The story about this is a non-story. I didn't feel or see a
thing.... no redness, no lost time experience, no weird dreams.

But I can tell you this, I periodically read about scoop marks
and check for them, usually with no result. I last checked
carefully about 1-2 months ago, when reading an article on them.
Then a few days ago, I happened to notice this mark on my shin.
An injury with that amount of skin tissue loss would be at least
noticeable, if not glaringly apparent for 2 - 4 weeks.

I have an old injury on my left knee that isn't 1/2 as deep. It
was the result of a nasty run in with the sharp side of a dog
cage. It bled for an hour, and was painful and noticeable for
over a month. The shin scoop?

It just appeared.

In fact, I just went on a cruise in June and was well aware of
any marks that would be noticeable when wearing a swim suit for
a solid week. I knew of only my knee injury.

So where this scoop came from, I have no idea.

I live in Pittsburgh, PA.

Thank you to the person for the sending in the photos of this
mysterious mark, where did it come from and when. Something of
this size would surely have been noted by the person, but there
was no sign of an injury, it just showed up !.

Photo can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1671

------------------------

Sainte Maxime, South Of St. Tropez Enormous Black Ellipsoid Shaped Craft

Date: May - Either 1983 or 1984
Time: 9:00 p.m.- 10 p.m.

Strange how some things can haunt you. I was browsing the
Internet the other day with a search for 'UFO St Tropez' because
I had a strange experience in that area about twenty years ago.

I was camping in the Ste Maxime area with family and we were
walking back to our pitch one splendid May evening having bought
some ice-cream at Port Grimaud. I turned to speak when my
attention was drawn up to the sky.

It was between 9:00 p.m.- 10 p.m. and the sky was a velvety
black, filled with a myriad of twinkling stars. The air was very
clear and it was a cloudless evening. I suddenly became aware of
something traveling across the sky at an incredibly high speed.
What was so strange was the fact that there was nothing to see.
Rather, a large proportion of the sky was filled by something
that itself was blacker than the sky, and where it was moving,
the stars were no longer visible. I called to everyone to look
up at the sky to see what I was seeing, and a few of the party
had the merest glimpse of what was moving there. My sighting
lasted only a few seconds until the shape disappeared over the
horizon.

That black shape moving across the sky had been huge, filling
about a quarter of my vision of the sky. It formed a perfect
ellipsoid. It was silent. You would not have known anything was
there had it not been that the stars behind it were hidden from
view as it passed and that it was blacker in outline than the
blackness of the sky.

I have never been able to explain this experience and there are
no records on the internet that I have come across of similar
sightings from twenty years ago. I sometimes wonder if I really
did see something - but I know I did, and the experience still
haunts today because I expect to go to my grave never really
knowing what I saw that night.

It was certainly more spectacular than the 'black dot' in the
photograph of the boat at the harbour in St Tropez taken on
05/08/2003!

Additional Information:

Dear Brian

I am amazed that you replied so quickly to my email of this
morning! I just though it would be filed away and forgotten
about . . .

My memory of the sighting is in so many ways vivid, though the
day and year are not clearly remembered! It was either 1983 or
1984 and the month was definitely May. I was on holiday with my
Mother and Father, and we were having an evening stroll with
some friends we had made at the camp site. There were about six
or seven of us in total returning from purchasing ice-creams! To
answer your questions:

Q: (Name removed) did the object travel in a straight line, or
did it make any unusual movements as it traveled over head ?"
and "Can you remember from which direction it came from and
heading to ?"

A: It moved in a straight line, and checking a map, from west to
east. There was no erratic movement.

Q: "At the time of the sighting, did you or anyone else in your
party observe any aircraft, ? Or were aircraft seen following
the event ?"

A: There were no aircraft that I can remember. The only light
came from the stars.

Q: "I understand it was a dark night, but I was wondering were
you able at anytime to observe any other detail on the object ?
Any light coming from it, even if just dim."

A: This is the detail that interests me the most. If it was not
for the fact that it was blacker than the dark of the sky, and
blocked the view of the stars filling the heavens, you would
never have known anything was flying by! No lights. Totally
silent. No air displacement. From west to east across the
horizon in about three seconds.

Q: "Do you believe the object was high up in altitude ? If so,
or not, would you be able to make a wild guess as to the height
it was from you ?"

A: Difficult to say. But it was certainly huge and I guess
between 10,000 feet - 20,000 feet in altitude. However, I often
wonder if it was in orbit . . . and so really huge. The angle it
traveled across the horizon makes me think it was not so high in
the sky.

Q: "Is there anyway you might be able to make a rough drawing of
what things looked like that evening and of course the craft
itself and email it to me ?"

A: Other than saying there was an enormous black ellipsoid shape
that a quarter filled the sky and moved from west to east at
high speed, I could not add to anything with a drawing. My IT
skills are not up to it!

I'm afraid that I cannot ask anyone else to add to this account.
Those with me on that evening are now either dead, or did not
see as clearly as I did because by the time their attention was
drawn to it, the shape was gone. However, they all registered
that they had been aware of something, but they were so busy
talking at the time that it was not memorable enough for them.
Only I, by turning to speak as I was walking ahead, saw the
shape come from the distant horizon and disappear within a few
seconds. They just caught a glimpse of something. If I had not
turned round at the time, I would not have seen anything at all.
Maybe that is the whole point . . . no-one was expected to see
anything at all.

With best wishes.

Thank you very much to the witness for the interesting report.

----------------------

North East Minneapolis, USA
Another Unusual Morphing Object Filmed

Date: February of 2003
Time:  2:00 p.m.<?/color>
REGARDING:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1640

HBCC UFO Research Note: I have the video clip here and it shows
a very interesting object which moves slowly through the sky.
=46rom what I observe from the clip is that the object appear to
be morphing, certainly changing shape as it moves along. Also
something else which is extremely interesting is that at one end
of the object, there is what appears to be a reflection off of
the object caused by the sun, or the object has it's own light
source which it is creating. You will see this also in the
center part of the object from time to time as well. This is
really an interesting bit of footage.

Also the clip is 4.91mbs in size and I will post it for a "short
time only" due to bandwidth concerns. Then I will take it down.
All of the 18 photos will remain, these still shots were taken
from the clip in order. But there would have been hundreds that
I could have grabbed but this will give everyone an idea of what
and how the object acted.

Hello,

I shot a very similar object on video in North East Minneapolis.
back on a cold day in February of 2003... Before I saw the
Dallas UFO, I couldn't rule out the possibility that it was some
black balloons, but what are the odds of two videos looking so
much alike? It gives off irregular brilliant flashes that are
too bright to be reflections of a balloon, and balloons would
have a constant reflection.

What could this morphing object be?

Additional Information below:

Q: First of all, can you remember the time when this took place?

A: Just after 2:00 p.m.

Q: In what part of the sky was the UFO located? North, South,
East, West? On the horizon or straight overhead or somewhere in
between?<?/fontfamily>

A: it was SE from my location moving North<?/color>

Q: When the UFO moved? How far and how fast? Describe its
movements in detail please.<?/fontfamily>

A: It wasn't moving very fast I'd guess between 20-30 Mph.,
constant altitude about 40 Deg. from Horizon, I filmed it for
about 2 minutes, until it was too far to see.<?/color>

Q: Can you please describe the appearance of the UFO: shape,
size, distance, color, texture, sound.<?/fontfamily>

A: It seemed to be matte black with 3 round sections that
appeared to move yet stay attached to each other. It emitted a
bright flash <?/color>from each section (1 section at a time)
It's hard to judge size and distance, but I got the impression
it was only '5 to '7 in length. it made no sound that I could
hear. If I hadn't been scanning the skies, I'd never have
noticed it.

Q: Can you describe the area in which you made the sighting.
Is it near an airport? An Air Force Base? A military or research
installation of any kind?<?/fontfamily>

A: It's about 3 miles NE of downtown Minneapolis in over Hwy 36,
in the 'Home Depot' parking lot. It is a high air-traffic sky
(In fact I was filming chemtrails) I was using a Canon Elura
MiniDV w40x digital zoom.<?/color>

Q: Also I noticed a contrail high above in some of the frames.
Did the Jet happen to make any changes in direction that is if
you noticed?

No, they are much too high and the object is much too small for
them to see. I lost sight of it a few times until it
flashed.

Photos and video clip are =A92004'SS'

Video clip 1 is of Unknown shaped morphing object 4.91mbs

Pictures can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1676

The video clip may be pulled by the time you received this
report due to bandwidth, but the 18 pictures will remain.

--------------------------

Phoenix, Arizona Red Object In Sky Over Chandler

Date: July 27, 2004
Time: Approx: 8:05 p.m.

Brian, I have been trying to see if anyone has reported what my
husband and I saw in the sky over the east phoenix area on the
evening of July 27th 2004. My husband and I were sitting out on
our back patio in Chandler that faces north, we estimate it was
about 8:05pm. We were talking and I saw this bright red light
coming south from the north. I asked my husband, "what do you
think that is?" and we went back and forth for probably a couple
of minutes and couldn't decide what it was.

All of a sudden it stopped. We stood and watched it until about
8:25. We got the binoculars out and were looking at it and it
was just a red dot. It was the most bizarre thing we have ever
seen. It would move a little then stop then move real quick then
stop.. all of a sudden no more red light but we could still
barely see the object. It didn't really flicker, but the red
light would go away and then it would come back a few seconds
later. It did the quick movements straight south and then
started going east when the light started going on and off. I
went and got my camera and my husband was watching with the
binoculars. At one point we thought it was gone then it
reappeared probably close to a minute later. All of a sudden it
took off east faster than anything either of us have ever seen
and boom it was gone.

We have been watching pretty much nightly to see if it's gonna
be back. It was definately not an airplane because and airplane
flew in between us and the object. And it was definately not a
flare (usually what they say here) because flares don't move
that way and they don't disappear and then come back. I took a
couple of pictures but unfortunately all I had available was my
little freeby digital camera (Vivicam 10). I have attached them
but I was hoping that someone else saw this and has better
pictures. Can you please let me know if anyone else saw this, I
would've thought I was crazy if my husband and daughter weren't
right there with me in amazement.

Thanks!

Thank you to the witness for the excellent report and the
photos. Pictures are =A92004LBCSJ

Pictures can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1679

--------------------------

Glossop Valley, The Pennines United Kingdom

Date: July 30 2004
Time: 5:29 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Pipe-shaped

Full Description of event/sighting: I was walking down towards
my house behind which is the view of the Glossop valley. Right
in the middle of the valley, very high up, I noticed a black
object seemingly floating along. Immediately I thought that it
was something out of the ordinary as I had never seen anything
like it before. It was shaped like a black pipe or rod and it
was stood vertically though at a slight angle. I watched it for
a few seconds before I called my sister on her mobile to come
out and have a look, I didn't want to go and get her in case it
disappeared. She came out and saw it and although I was adamant
it was a UFO she was more skeptical, although she couldn't tell
what it was either. The object was moving from right to left in
our line of vision and as it seemed to be getting further away I
went into the house and get my Dad's binoculars out. By this
time it had moved much further into the distance, though through
the binoculars I could see that it was slowly rotating, in the
way that it was black but every so often it would show a silver
metallic side opposed to black. The whole sighting lasted about
15 minutes before the object was out of sight. Although I
believed I had seen a UFO, I was even more convinced when I
looked on the website UFOINFO and found that someone had posted
a sighting, one that had happened exactly a year before at
almost the same time and which had happened in the same place.
The sight report could not have given a better description of
what my sister and I saw, and when my sister read it even she
agreed that it was a strange coincidence.

Thank you to the witness for this report.

Both John Hayes at UFOINFO and myself received this report.

-----------------------------

Kingsland, Texas Craft, But What Is It ?

Date: July 30, 2004
Time: Daytime sighting

The sighting took place on July 30, 2004 in Kingsland, Texas
after lunch. I am not sure what time it was exactly. I have
several other pictures I took just before or just after. I did
not see anything in the picture when I took it. This was made
with a HP.315 photo smart digital camera. It doesn't really look
like a bird when it's enlarged, maybe it could be a plane, but I
didn't hear anything that sounded like a plane in the area at
that time. I have seen unidentified objects before and I
reported them to Mr. Davenport. I also was coming from a small
town (Burnet, Texas) back to my home about a month ago. It was
about 9:30 p.m. when I saw a big light, like a star shining
(silver) just over to the right of my car. It was so close it
felt like I could touch it. I am not good with distances or
heights. Anyway I watched it until I couldn't see it any more. I
started to stop and look at it, but this is a deserted road, no
traffic. Anyway when I went back on Tuesday night I looked for
it but it was gone. I couldn't tell the shape of it, just light.
It was really bright. I travel this road two times a week and
that's the first time I ever saw anything like it on that road.

Thanks and I hope this helps you.

Thank you to the witness for being kind enough to send the
report and photo along to me.

To view the photo, please visit:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1675

-----------------------------

Phoenix, Arizona - Incredible New Footage (Three Video Clips)

Date: July 31, 2004
Time: Between 12:30 to 2:30

On July 31, 2004 I went to my office parking garage and did a
stakeout there between 12:30 to 2:30. Between these times I can
almost guarantee a sighting in the same general area around
these times. A hot spot as we say. I noticed chemtrails being
formed in this general area and when these are formed I can
usually find a UFO at or around that vicinity. I was there for
about an hour and decided to do a walk around because I didn't
see anything yet and as luck would have it I noticed a strange
formation of lights or orbs to the North.

They were moving West which was against the wind that day so I
knew this was something worth taping. The objects never got any
higher from the beginning of the sighting to the end but the
sighting was only about 2 minutes long. I started to video tape
them after a few seconds of looking through the binoculars just
to make sure it was worth taping. It was. I was in a parking
garage with my camera on the tripod but the objects started to
go out of view and I had to go on the roof to see them. By the
time I ran up 2 stories it was impossible to find where they
went and that was the last I saw of those objects. A few minutes
go by and I saw something coming in from the West where the
string of lights were heading towards and this object was a
silvery-black metallic and moving very fast towards the
Southeast. I started to tape it and I noticed that it was
turning over and spinning and reflecting the sunlight so you can
tell it was metallic. The object was picking up speed and
heading in the direction of the chemtrails (Southwest).

It kept a straight line, it never bobbed up or down, slowed down
or did anything erratic. I did notice a red distortion around
the object when I played back the video though. After a minute
of taping this I lost it somehow when I was trying to get a
better view. It was going pretty fast.

I have to say that I was very excited and decided to hang around
a little longer just to see if it came back. About 10 minutes
later I noticed a white orb by the chemtrail that was formed
when I got to the office about an hour ago. I taped the orb
until it went over my head and out of sight. It could have been
10,000 ft or higher. I could have went on the roof again but it
was hot and I decided to stay in the shade. It didn't matter
because as soon as the orb went over my head I noticed a second
orb getting ready to drift into the chemtrail. I taped it and it
went through the trail from the left and came out the right
side. It's so obvious that these are not planes, helicopters or
balloons. You can see this for yourself on the video and the
events that led up to the orbs in the trails. I lost that orb
trying to get a better view, probably went into the trail and I
couldn't see it anymore.

The orbs are white and difficult to see which is still amazing
to me that I can see them at all. This area that I go to is a
hot hot spot. I sent you many video clips from this location.
It's right by Sky Harbor International Airport! Why would we be
flying experimental aircraft over a heavy populated area and by
the airport? Or are we? I have no explanation as to what these
are but it's all over the area. I am sending you some clips
through several emails in the order this happened. That was on
Saturday...wait till you see what I taped on Sunday...more to
come. Thank you.

Thank you to the gentleman for the excellent footage, still and
the report.

Photos and video clips are =A92004RichG.

To view the stills and video clips please visit:
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D16
69

Or my main page: Looking for "Phoenix, Arizona - Incredible New
Footage (Three Video Clips And Stills)"

http://www.hbccufo.com/index.php

----------------------

Thunder Bay, Ontario Orange Copper Colored Object Makes "S' Turn

Date: August 1, 2004
Time: 12:20 a.m.

Location of Sighting: Above our house, over the city.
Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Round.

Full Description of event/sighting: Looked like a satellite that
moves across the sky and twice as big. It was orange copper in
the light coming from it....like a street light but brighter. It
moved in a staright line like a satellite but much faster, then
it did a "S" shape, but not a perfect "S" it was a tilted S so
that it was going right and up, left and down then up again.
During the S shape it picked up great speed and as it
accelerated upward it disappeared into darkness. There was no
streak or tail, no sound, and it looked high up like a
satellite, but you could tell it was lower, as it maneuvered you
could see that there was like a metal texture....that it wasn't
pure light. My wife saw it first and pointed up and said "look",
I saw it right away as it was the biggest and brightest object
in the sky. First sighting ever for both of us. It lasted about
8 seconds or more.

We are both university educated people, I am a teacher myself.

Thank you to the witness for their report.

----------------------------------------

Gooderham, Ontario Two Circular Objects

Date: August 1, 2004
Time: 3:48 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 2
Shape of objects: Circular

Full Description of event/sighting: I was up at the cottage with
some family and friends and decided to sit over by the small
water falls which run beside our cottage and empty into the
lake. The weather was mostly clear except for the occasional
cloud drifting by. I was just admiring the view and watching my
relatives splash around in the lake and I glanced up to the sky
as a cloud obscured the sunshine we were all enjoying, when to
my surprise I seen two circular objects with a very slight vapor
or contrails behind them (one object flying directly behind the
others slight contrail). I lifted my hand to further obscure the
sun and watched the objects fly behind the cloud. I kept
watching as I excepted them to re-appear on the other side of
the cloud. However they did not. Where did they go? We can only
speculate. I estimate their height to be at least 25 to 35
thousand feet. With my arm outstretched and holding a thumb out
they would have both fit inside my thumbnail. Duration of
sighting was about 5 seconds. They were heading SW from the NW
at a incredible speed. Faster than any aircraft I have ever
seen.

They seemed metallic in colour as it appeared the sunlight
reflected off their circular shapes. I would have yelled to
everyone that was swimming to look up but I was waiting to see
the objects come out the other side of the cloud, however to my
disappointment they did not. I did mention it to my family and
they also expressed some disappointment that they didn't get to
see these objects as I described. We debated on what they might
have been and decided the sighting worthy of report.

Thank You Brian for having this site for people like me to make
these sightings known to all.

Thank you to the witness for the excellent report.

----------------------

Sydney, Australia Sighting Of Similar Orange/Reddish Ball Of Fire

Date: August 1, 2004
Time: Approx: 1:00 a.m.

Gday

I have read with interest your report (Attached). I enclose for
you a copy of a report of an incident that happened to me last
Sunday Morning ie 1st August 2004. (HBCC UFO Research Note: The
gentleman is referring to a sighting in which I received and can
be found on my site at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1142

The similarity is outstanding!

Report

The time is now 1.37 am Sydney Australian time. This incident
happened approximately 45- 50 min ago. I am a 60 year old
professional male I had been out to dinner with some friends and
was driving home ( therefore sober) As I was driving home from
Sydney to Camden (about 30 mile away) at about 1:00 a.m. this
morning.

The night was clear except for a small amount of cloud but was
dry and crisp.

I noticed a orange/reddish ball of fire at about 15 degrees
above the horizon and about 2000 feet away from me, on my left
coming towards my direction , but at a parallel line it was then
joined by a second ball of similar size and shape. At first I
thought it was the afterburners of a low flying military
aircraft, but there were no other lights of any description. I
stopped my car and got out to obtain an uninterrupted look.

The lights moved from right, to left and in a northerly
direction, they were both clearly controlled by some sort of
intelligence. They stopped and hung in the sky for about 2
minutes and then moved upwards and to the left or right.

The one on the left then moved to a higher altitude
approximately 1-2 mile high and then moved away at such a great
speed that it was clear that nothing we ( ordinary mortals )
know of as being made by us.

I immediately made a call to the Sunday Telegraph Newspaper and
reported the incident and also tried to ring the Kingsford Smith
Airport but was unable to get the number.

I have absolutely no doubt that these objects were controlled by
a some sort of intelligence, They were defiantly not fire balls
or swamp gas , they were objects being controlled by some sort
of intelligence.

Thank you to the witness for the interesting report.

Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 6

                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:17:42 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:17:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 19:02:34 +1000
>Subject: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

><snip>

>I remember when Sheryl made some comment to me a while ago she
>thought an abduction scenario could be attributed to thyroid
>problems - as the symptoms were similar?

><snip>

Let's get it right. I did not make this comment to Diane. I
spoke about this at the national UFO conference in Australia in
2003.

What I said was that I had come across some (please remember I
said "some") people reporting abductions as also having a
dysfunctional thyroid condition. I was particularly interested
in this as I have this health condition myself and have delved
quite deeply into the list of symptoms and manifestation of the
condition.

When I searched for what others had found I discovered I was not
alone in this observation. Some UFO researchers had found
endocrine abnormalities as being quite common, especially
dysfunctional thyroid conditions in those reporting close
encounter experiences.

Surprisingly, the most common list of symptoms for thyroid
dysfunction closely mimick many of those reported by close
encounter experiencers and include menstrual problems, with
interruption to cycles or cessation of them; lowered/raised
metabolism; sensitivity to noise, sunlight and odours; night
blindness; energy bursts or lack of energy, abnormal sleep
patterns and insomnia.

Thyroid sufferers can also be phobic particularly agoraphobic,
prone to "psychic attacks", paranoid with feelings of being
watched, emotionally labile with extreme emotional swings in a
very short time frame, have past sexual trauma, and hear buzzing
or high pitched sounds.

Interestingly, it is estimated that 80% of dysfunctional thyroid
sufferers are women and that 3% of the population have an
undiagnosed condition.

The other intriguing thing that crops up is that these people
have a flair for the creative which can manifest in artwork such
as painting, sketching or sculpting, in music such as singing or
playing a musical instrument, writing and many other artistic
explorations.

A study, which I was part of, was conducted by an Australian
health professional on a group of thyroid sufferers and all were
found to have a higher than average level of creativity.

Mary Rodwell, a Perth-based Australian UFO researcher, has also
found that individuals reporting such experiences can have this
same unleashing of creativity which manifests in artwork and
unidentifiable script writing which the individuals allege to be
an "alien language". I have received reports of script writing
myself.

Dolores Cannon, regardless of her interpretation, also works
with experiencers who produce similar scripts and in some cases
claim to speak unrecognisable alien "languages". In my mind,
these are clear examples of unleashed creativity in action.

Maybe this part of my email is for another List but
interestingly, the metaphysical symbology of the throat chakra
which governs the thyroid gland relates to creativity among
other things. A disturbance can be caused by problems in the
areas of communication, self expression, truth, creativity and
willpower. All of these areas are affected in an individual's
life when they undergo close encounter experiences.

They typically do not speak about their experiences to others,
feel they cannot express their true selves, they cannot speak
their truth freely, and feel their will is interfered with. With
the extreme amounts of chronic stress some experiencers endure I
would be surprised if they did not develop some health
condition.


Sheryl Gottschall







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 6

                        NARCAP On UFO/UAP Terminology

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 21:55:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:22:48 -0400
Subject: NARCAP On UFO/UAP Terminology


Source:

National Aviation Reporting Center on Anomalous Phenomena

http://www.narcap.org/news%20page/newspage.htm

08-03-04


NARCAP News

Historically, no distinction has been made between unidentified
lights that may represent poorly documented natural phenomena
and alleged reports of unidentified objects. The result is that
all reports of UAP are lumped into a common, though inaccurate,
category - UFO. This was one of the reasons that NARCAP adopted
the broader term of UAP or Unidentified Aerial Phenomena.
However, many historical references use the term "UFO" and we
are faced with including them while emphasizing the more correct
term "UAP" from our modern perspective.

The majority of official discussions with respect to what NARCAP
calls Unidentified Aerial Phenomena or UAP have been in regard
to the concept that some of these phenomena may represent
extraterrestrial incursions into the Earth domain. These
official discussions have rarely, if ever, engaged the topic
from an aviation perspective reflecting a simple need to know.
Thus, although new natural aerial phenomena have been discovered
much later than the close of Project Blue Book in 1969, there
has been no will to revisit the issue from the simpler and more
practical viewpoint of aviation safety.

The historical arguments offered by James E. McDonald and the
American Institute of Astronautics and Aeronautics reflect
practical and prudent inquiries that are as relevent today as
they were in the 1960's and early 1970's. These discussions
represent the starting point of a better and more reasonable
attempt to understand the variety of UAP that are encountered by
aviation personnel.

AIAA Statement on UFOs

http://www.narcap.org/AIAAStatementonUFOs.htm

The American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics was one
of the dissenting voices in the debate regarding UFO research
during the late 1960's and early 1970's. It is clear that the
AIAA was seeking further research into UAP encounters over the
conclusions of the U.S.A.F. Project Blue Book and the U.S.A.F.
commissioned University of Colorado (The Condon) Report. The
position of the AIAA in these matters was conservative and
reflected a concern for the best interests of aviation and
science.

UFO Encounter 1: Sample Case Selected by the UFO Subcommittee of
the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics - 1971

http://www.narcap.org/aiaareport.pdf

This case involved an Electronic Countermeasures (ECM) aircraft
that encountered a UAP while conducting a routine mission.
Please notice that this UAP encounter was described as a bright
light by the eyewitnesses rather than an object (though it is
referred to as an object due to the ground and air radar
detections) and that it presented the crew with aviation safety
related problems including control inputs to avoid a mid-air
collision and crew distraction.

Additionally, the object was detected on both ground and air
radars and so involved trace evidence and multiple witnesses.
This incident had a long duration and has never been adequately
explained. This is particularly interesting in light of the
most recent report on the Hessdalen Phenomenon. See:

http://www.narcap.org/news%20page/newspage.htm






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 6

                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Harrison

From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:44:16 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:36:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos -  Harrison


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:13:19 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:40:33 +1000
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>>From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:20:20 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>>>For what it's worth, the most impressive UFO photos I have yet
>>>to come across are from the 1993 Australian sighting near Maslin
>>>Beach. I have seen printed versions of these that are far more
>>>impressive than even the screen photos below. Do they feature a
>>>"real" flying saucer? Beats the hell out of me, but they sure
>>>are fun to examine!

>>>http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/shaman/924/main_page.htm

>>I would like to inform you the Maslin Beach photos have not yet
>>been proven to be fake. Debbie Pyane of AURA has informed me
>>another wittiness has come forward to verify that what is in
>>these photos is a real UFO as the witness says she saw the
>>objects.

>If you wanted to be more objective, you could have modified
>that, by saying there is an, "alleged witness".


Hi Ray,

As a researcher I am waiting for more information re the witness
not alleged witness but witness as passed on to me.

>But, I suspect your unconscious has spilled your real inner
>knowledge to us by your spelling of the word "witness" as
>"wittiness". Freudian slips are pretty witty and revealing,
>sometime. :)

Sorry about the wittiness bit <g> No slip, just a mistake.

>Since this photographer has made his phony photos available on
>the internet for years (You may know where else.), if one is
>willing to accept the testimony of one single after-the-photos-
>are-out witness in preference to the self-contained evidences
>that the photos are fake, then I question that person's
>reliability as a UFO photo case researcher.

The photographer contacted us only 8 weeks ago with a full
statement and original pictures so as an investigative
organization like MUFON we will look into the alleged story
behind these pictures and collect evidence accordingly.

>If this alleged witness did not make her claim before those
>photos were circulated, I say forget it. Yet, she might even be
>an accomplice of the photographer. An independent person might
>be seeking a bit of attention. There are some persons who can
>read of almost any event and convince themselves of personally
>having been there. They are known as schizophrenics.

Ray, I've been warned to be careful of these pictures and I
am. If they are can proven to be fake or real then I will let
you all know either way. But until then we will investigate
these pictures with an open and objective mind.

<snip>

>Even with that plea for investigative caution and rationality,
>the reporter refused to cooperate. What a dunce!

Not good.

>So, Diane, considering the fact that what was shown in those
>Maslin Beach photos was potentially well-known all over the
>world, an after-the-fact alleged single witnesses should really
>not play a part in evaluating those photos.

Our investigator is no dummy and I'm sure she will cover all
bases.

>>For the moment we are waiting for Debbie's to complete her
>>report.

>>I must admit these photos are great...

If these photos are proven not to have been faked then they are
truly great pictures of an Australian UFO.

>Great is as great does, and those fake photos don't do a thing
>to help scientific Ufology, and potentially could harm it.

Ray, I hope you don't mind me asking, but, if you can help me
with any scientific evidence which you have to support your
claim on these pictures, I would be greatful for your help?

>I somehow don't think you're really sure about those photos
>being "great", Diane. O.K., you are a blonde, but I've never
>thought of you as a case of the fabled dumb blonde. :)

<LOL> This has nothing to do with me being "blond" or for
example a man who is bald said to be labeled brighter than man
with hair. <g>

One thing you can rest assured of, Ray, I'm not stupid.
I may look blond. <g> oopps! Hang on there mate while I get
me Whiteout, I've just spotted another spelling mistake <wink>

>Sorry, but "great" does not fit those photos. I could think of
>a few short, descriptive words, but...

Now, now Ray.....

>One really lives in the fabled Land of Oz, though, if one
>believes those photos! :)

Ray, we're are the end of the yellow brick road, the land of
golden & honey and we have the worlds most beautiful beaches and
me!! ;) <LOL>  That's why everyone wants to come live in Oz.

If the photos reveal a straw man or Tin man I will let you know!
<LOL>

Seriously now

Ray I thank you kindly for all the advise and it has not
fallen on deaf ears you bring up some very relevant points which
I am looking into.

--

Regards Diane Harrison

National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn.nul
E-mail: ufologist.nul
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
         1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>







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   Aug > Aug 6

                         Re: Close-Up Photos - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 02:15:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:43:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - King


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 08:14:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:15:21 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>Also don't forget that a couple of garbage can lids duct-taped
>>together and hurled through the air could work as well, and
>>wouldn't require string or helium.

>Yeah, but from my experience they don't have that necessary
>atmospheric haze to indicate they're really far away.

<snip>

>We'll still need a sweet combination of photos, physical
>evidence (preferably in the form of an alien being), confirmed
>analyses from government and independent sources, expert
>testimony, high-ranking government testimony, and public
>displays in major cities worldwide.

>I always said in my more ultra-skeptical moments, that I want
>the same proof for non-terrestrial life exsisting as I do for
>proving the chair I'm sitting on exists. Unfortunately, if these
>things don't exist in quite the same reality I do (or my chair),
>that might be difficult. Still, it's something to shoot for.

Tim,

The "haze" thing is a toughie when your object is close, no
doubt.

I agree with your points and your conclusion. Everyone seems to
agree that the volume of the evidence is more considerable than
any single sighting... short of a landing at 1600 Penn. Ave.:)

The consensus appears to be building for assembling this volume
of evidence, and undertaking a detailed and exhaustive analysis
of the cases just as Blue Book was supposed to.

The efforts of several who post on this forum are actively
serving to make this a reality. Brad for one certainly makes a
strong (in content and in passion ;) case, and has the nucleus
of this "assembly" underway.

There is light ahead... the field is overdue for an evolutionary
burp, and the all too common emotional timbre of the debate is a
sure cause for indigestion...

We reach...(making that funky Spock peace sign thing)


Kyle







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                Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 02:32:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:46:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - King


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 08:21:17 -0500
>Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:04:39 -0700
>>Subject: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites

>>Source: BBC News

>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3530748.stm

>>"One of the top places in the world to find meteorites is North
>>America, due to its featureless landscape, which allows the
>>meteorites to be spotted easily. Therefore, looking in similar
>>landscapes in the UK could also be lucrative," says Dr
>>Greenwood.

>Yeah, those Rocky Mountains are not much of a feature.Two or
>three feet high at the most. Easy to find meteorites there. You
>can pick 'em up by the handful.

Not a very flattering description.....

But if meteorite hunting gets really popular... it could yield a
treasure-trove indeed.

The metal-detector makers will be smiling.


Kyle






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   Aug > Aug 6

                     Re: Secrecy News -- 08/05/04 - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 02:46:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:49:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Secrecy News -- 08/05/04 - King


>From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
>To: <secrecy_news.nul>
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:34:05 -0400
>Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/05/04

>SECRECY NEWS
>from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
>Volume 2004, Issue No. 74
>August 5, 2004

>**     CHENEY BLOCKED INTELLIGENCE REFORM IN 1992
>**     NEW RESTRICTIONS ON PUBLIC ACCESS AT NRC, NASA, FCC, ETC
>**     HOWARD MORLAND RECALLS THE PROGRESSIVE CASE
>**     THE NETHERLANDS: NOT SO OPEN
>**     THE CLASSIFIED COST OF ALUMINUM TUBES
>**     TIME OUT

<snip>

I fear that our kingdom is on a path and pace to... very soon...
meet and exceed yours on this score.


Kyle







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   Aug > Aug 6

                          Re: ETH Modeling - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 07:19:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:52:02 -0400
Subject: Re: ETH Modeling - Clark


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:54:02 -0500
>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 08:14:35 -0500
>>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

<snip>

>You noted that Brad was using an argument that even debunkers
>don't use. My sole point was that debunkers intentionally do not
>suggest what Brad advocates because they don't want science to
>interfere with their cottage industry. By inflaming the egos of
>the UFO advocates, they reduce the debate to mere name-calling
>and ridicule, thereby ensuring that the debate never rises above
>their debunking ability.

>(I could barely restrain myself from placing quotes around some
>of the above terms, but for you... :))

>Oh, and my use of the quotation marks was to qualify my use of
>the labels I so dislike. Since they are part of the vocabulary
>of this field, I am compelled to use them for clarity, but I do
>not personally feel that they are representative of the
>individuals at which they are aimed. So I am in effect quoting
>others when I use them.

>The rest of my response actually was intended for a different
>post. Please accept my apologies for including it. It had no
>bearing on your comments. I must start going to bed before 4AM.

Kyle, I appreciate your clarification. No offense meant on this
end, and none taken on it, either. I think the whole discussion
is about differing emphasis as much as anything, not about
substantive disagreement.


Cordially,

Jerry Clark







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             Re: Varginha - Gevaerd Bourdais & Pratt - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:39:59 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:54:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Varginha - Gevaerd Bourdais & Pratt - Bourdais


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul >
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 17:40:48 -0300
>Subject: Varginha - Gevaerd Bourdais & Pratt

>I have been exchanging info about Varginha with Bob Pratt,
>Gildas Bordais and Doc Leir - off-List - to clear the
>misunderstandings posted by Gildas. The only misunderstanding is
>in Gildas' mind.

>The e-mail below clears all questions, I believe, and permission
>was specifically granted by Bob for posting to the List.

>Thanks,

>A. J.

>-----

>From: Bob Pratt
>To: Gevaerd
>Cc: Gildas Bourdais
>Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 8:54 PM
>Subject: Varginha...

>I have re-read, several times now, all of the exchanges between
>Gevaerd and you and others on UFO UpDates, including the
>original report in Gevaerd's Revista UFO, and can honestly say I
>do not see where Gevaerd criticized Roger Leir or the doctor in
>the Varginha case, or said anything derogatory about anyone
>(other than possibly Brad Sparks and his friends).

<snip>

AJ,

Very well.

Please note again that I did not say on this List that you, and
Ubirajara, criticized Roger Leir. I only mentioned the Doctor.


Take care,

Gildas







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                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 13:41:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:56:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:48:16 EDT
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 15:43:09 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 02:49:18 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

<snip>

>>>Further study and statistics are required.

>>Couldn't that simply be because those are the circles you travel
>>in primarily or to a large extent? Various filter factors ar at
>>work in our perceptions of this, including your definition of
>>"artistic in some way." Wouldn't most of us qualify by that
>>definition? Yes, real statistics are needed, professionally
>>analyzed.

>Gotta disagree big time here though I understand your logic.

>Although I'm a professional in the arts, the majority of the
>people in my circles aren't professional artists although they
>are artistic.

>The majority of people in my circles are police, scientists,
>journalists.

>Yet the artists I do hang out with are for the majority ex or
>present military and law enforcement. My two best pals in comics
>are an ex police officer who became an illustrator and an ex
>lieutenant jarhead whose tv shows you've all seen.

>I grew up in a military/law enforcement community so the
>majority of the contactees I've met there are from those
>lifestyles/occupations. Yet the other common denominator is that
>they're also artistic to some degree. Music, writing, sculpting
>etc.

Greg,

I'm not sure what your point is here, but I am one of five male
siblings; all five of us served in the military. Two were MPs.
One is a social psychologist and another an engineer. My oldest
brother is a poet, writer, linguist, musician. I am a writer and
do some painting on the side. So some of us are "artistic in
some way." But to the best of our knowledge, none of us is an
abductee nor has had any of the familiar odd experiences related
to abduction reports.

I have a lot of friends who are writers, and some are musically
inclined. None of them so far as I am aware are abductees
either. If your group of friends and acquaintances has a
disproportionate number of abductees, then I suspect it has
nothing to do with artistic interests or abilities.

<snip>

>I don't know if artistic communication is a common denominator
>of contact or abduction but it's something worth looking into.

Yes, as is possible connections with one or more of many other
personality traits, lifestyles, or demographics. But it has to
be done in a scientifically meaningful way.


 - Dick







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                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:18:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:00:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 07:23:35 +1000
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>To add to this, people who report their experiences to
>researchers are self selecting and may have a peculiarity of
>their own yet to be discovered.


Hi, Sheryl,

That's a good point. And just to make things more complicated,
we then have the differing reactions of researchers to the
people who want to talk to them. How do researchers screen the
people they spend a lot of time working with? That differs from
researcher to researcher, and certainly mucks up any definition
of who, exactly, abductees are.


Greg Sandow






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                Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:15:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:02:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Shell


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 02:32:05 -0500
>Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites

>But if meteorite hunting gets really popular... it could yield a
>treasure-trove indeed.

>The metal-detector makers will be smiling.

At least for the iron meteorite hunters.They don't work to good
for those condritic types. A person can get good money for those
Mars meteorites.

Hey, who's that dude who finds all those meteorites out in
Arizona and New Mexico? I bought his meterorite/tektite book but
can't remember. Claims to be the owner of the largest private
extra-terrestrial materials collection.

If I had enough time to go wandering through the desert looking
for meteorites... well, I'd use that time to do something more
fun.






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              Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:43:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:04:27 -0400
Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -


>From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
>To: Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>Source: The Daily Gleaner - Kingston, Jamaica

>October 25, 1954

>Visitors from outer space may be mapping earth

>By Ronald Batchelor
>Reuters Correspondent

>Nairobi

>Visitors from outer space are probably observing and mapping the
>Earth and have directing their recent attentions to East
>Africa.

>That, at any rate, is the considered opinion of one of the
>leading astronomers in this area, the vice-president of Kenya
>Astronomical Association, Mr. G. Duncan Fletcher.

"One of the leading astronomers in this area...", huh? Well, how
many professional astronomers are in Kenya? :) They even have
problems getting jobs in the USA. Fletcher has been making pro-
E.T. statements for decades now, but he never has been able to
impress his colleagues, and one can see why. See, e.g., below:

>He put forward this startling and eerie suggestion after a
>deluge of reports from scores of observers throughout East
>Africa, who claim to have seen "flying saucers."
>The most encouraging thing about reports of unidentified flying
>objects (or U.F.O. as they are labelled officially here), Mr.
>Fletcher avers, is that "they seemed to be friendly towards the
>people of this planet."

<snip>

I haven't noticed any help with our multiple planetary crises,
from environment to wars. I suppose he believes Adamski's claim
of Venusians, Martians, Saturnians, and Jupiterians giving him
great food, drink, and beautiful alien women at the table aboard
the mothership. :) Or, maybe he's referring to that mind-
expanding pill an alien allegedly dropped into a glass of water
which Orfeo Angelucci told us about. :)

>"From all the information which is available they are steadily
>mapping every part of our Earth," he concludes.

Give us a break, Fletcher! If it takes aliens from the 1940s (or
before) to 2004 just to map this planet, NASA and other agencies
are a lot more efficient than are the aliens. :)

<snip>

>Mr. Fletcher is convinced that the objects come from outer
>space and declares that "their behaviour cannot be mistaken
>for a meteorite which, on coming into contact with our
>atmosphere, is pulled at an ever-increasing velocity by gravity
>towards the earth. The velocity becomes so great that the
>objects burns up because of the intense heat generated by
>friction with our atmosphere.
>
>"A meteorite does not turn or hover in the air. Its path is a
>parabolic curve similar to that of shell fired from a gun.
>Therefore the things which we have seen are undoubtedly
>unidentified flying objects."

If this guy were much of an astronomer, he would know that
meteorites do not even pass through the air. Any above-sand-
grain-sized natural cosmic debris (of various types and origins)
in space is a meteoroid. In falling to a planet, it is a meteor
when producing luminosity due to pressure and friction in the
atmosphere (or, at least by some definitions, even after
retarded from cosmic velocity and the luminosity has abated),
but it does not really become classified as a meteorite until
upon the planet's surface.

Also, Fletcher may be so old, these days, that he has forgotten
this too: The paths of meteors and bullets fired from guns are
elliptical, not parabolic.

If Fletcher doesn't even have knowledge that should be common to
even the most amateur astronomer, his statements (with the UFO
report) are not going to make astronomers with their educations
in-tact pay much attention. He might do better to keep his
comments about friendly E.T.s taking over 55 years to map the
earth to himself.

It is courageous of Fletcher to report this UFO sighting, but
considering his appended statements, we must look elsewhere, I
suspect, for an astronomer or astronomers whose words would
carry weight with professional astronomers or any of the
scientific mainstream.


Ray Stanford







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   Aug > Aug 7

                 Winnipeg Sightings Soar Over Last 48 Hours

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 08:31:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 08:31:13 -0400
Subject: Winnipeg Sightings Soar Over Last 48 Hours




Source: The Winnipeg Sun

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/WinnipegSun/News/2004/08/07/572052.html

08-07-04


'Peggers Relish Close Encounters UFO Sightings Soar Over Last 48
Hours

By Natalie Pona
Staff Reporter

Little green men have taken an unusual interest in Winnipeg this
week. The city was already on track to register a
record-breaking year for UFO sighting when five more were
reported in the last two days, said Winnipegger Chris Rutkowski,
co-ordinator of Ufology Research of Manitoba.

Wayne Robillard, 20, was one of the five people who reported
seeing a UFO.

He said he was swimming in his mom's pool in Crestview on
Thursday night when he saw a light in the sky.

"It just shakes me up to believe that there is something curious
about us... it probably has the innocence of a four-year-old
but gets a little too close then takes off," said Robillard.

At first, he thought it was a shooting star.

"It was a bright light, then it stopped. It was a bright light
again, then it just dropped," Robillard said.

He dug out his old binoculars and tracked the object in the dark
sky. The light darted through the air. It was bright white with
a red light rotating around the centre orbit, Robillard said.

Robillard was the second UFO-spotter to call The Sun yesterday.

Alfredo Perez was leaving home for work about 11:30 p.m.
Wednesday when he saw a bright light in the northeastern sky.

"It was like a helicopter light. It lasted about five seconds
bright and then it just took off," he said. "I tried to follow
it with my eyes. It went so fast and so high that it just
blended with the stars."

Like Robillard, Perez said he believes in life on other planets.
That light was probably an alien craft, he said.

"There's got to be something else out there," said Perez.

Some of the spotters may have actually seen an advertising
promotion for some local bars, Rutkowski said. Organizers shine
a beam of light into the sky.

But many callers reported seeing more than one light, Rutkowski
said. That would rule out the promotion.








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              Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:43:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 16:01:14 -0400
Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -


>From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
>To: Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>Source: The Daily Gleaner - Kingston, Jamaica

>October 25, 1954


>Visitors from outer space may be mapping earth

>By Ronald Batchelor
>Reuters Correspondent

>Nairobi

>Visitors from outer space are probably observing and mapping the
>Earth and have directing their recent attentions to East
>Africa.

>That, at any rate, is the considered opinion of one of the
>leading astronomers in this area, the vice-president of Kenya
>Astronomical Association, Mr. G. Duncan Fletcher.

"One of the leading astronomers in this area...", huh? Well, how
many professional astronomers are in Kenya? :) They even have
problems getting jobs in the USA. Fletcher has been making pro-
E.T. statements for decades now, but he never has been able to
impress his colleagues, and one can see why. See, e.g., below:

>He put forward this startling and eerie suggestion after a
>deluge of reports from scores of observers throughout East
>Africa, who claim to have seen "flying saucers."
>The most encouraging thing about reports of unidentified flying
>objects (or U.F.O. as they are labelled officially here), Mr.
>Fletcher avers, is that "they seemed to be friendly towards the
>people of this planet."

<snip>

I haven't noticed any help with our multiple planetary crises,
from environment to wars. I suppose he believes Adamski's claim
of Venusians, Martians, Saturnians, and Jupiterians giving him
great food, drink, and beautiful alien women at the table aboard
the mothership. :) Or, maybe he's referring to that mind-
expanding pill an alien allegedly dropped into a glass of water
which Orfeo Angelucci told us about. :)

>"From all the information which is available they are steadily
>mapping every part of our Earth," he concludes.

Give us a break, Fletcher! If it takes aliens from the 1940s (or
before) to 2004 just to map this planet, NASA and other agencies
are a lot more efficient than are the aliens. :)

<snip>

>Mr. Fletcher is convinced that the objects come from outer
>space and declares that "their behaviour cannot be mistaken
>for a meteorite which, on coming into contact with our
>atmosphere, is pulled at an ever-increasing velocity by gravity
>towards the earth. The velocity becomes so great that the
>objects burns up because of the intense heat generated by
>friction with our atmosphere.

>"A meteorite does not turn or hover in the air. Its path is a
>parabolic curve similar to that of shell fired from a gun.
>Therefore the things which we have seen are undoubtedly
>unidentified flying objects."

If this guy were much of an astronomer, he would know that
meteorites do not even pass through the air. Any above-sand-
grain-sized natural cosmic debris (of various types and origins)
in space is a meteoroid. In falling to a planet, it is a meteor
when producing luminosity due to pressure and friction in the
atmosphere (or, at least by some definitions, even after
retarded from cosmic velocity and the luminosity has abated),
but it does not really become classified as a meteorite until
upon the planet's surface.

Also, Fletcher may be so old, these days, that he has forgotten
this too: The paths of meteors and bullets fired from guns are
elliptical, not parabolic.

If Fletcher doesn't even have knowledge that should be common to
even the most amateur astronomer, his statements (with the UFO
report) are not going to make astronomers with their educations
in-tact pay much attention. He might do better to keep his
comments about friendly E.T.s taking over 55 years to map the
earth to himself.

It is courageous of Fletcher to report this UFO sighting, but
considering his appended statements, we must look elsewhere, I
suspect, for an astronomer or astronomers whose words would
carry weight with professional astronomers or any of the
scientific mainstream.


Ray Stanford








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   Aug > Aug 7

                        Chile: Monsters or Ostriches?

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:01:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 16:30:40 -0400
Subject: Chile: Monsters or Ostriches?


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
August 6, 2004


SOURCE: La Estrella de Arica (Chile)
DATE: Thursday, August 5, 2004


Acha Phenomenon Attracts International Attention

Young men traveling in vehicle show the puncture marks in their
vehicle's tire. The claim feeling blows against their car while
touring the Presencias Tutelares sculpture.

Three young me from the Espa=F1oleto sector of Villa Universidad
visited the Presencias Tutelares section in Pampa Acha driven by
reports of encounters with strange creatures. Their curiosity,
however, played a trick on them: as they were reaching the site
at 20:00 hours, their Ford Festiva received several blows from
something they couldn't see. Their suprise turned to panic when
they felt one of the tires begin to lose air, showing signs of
having been punctured with a sharp object. "We turned around
immediately," said Calezca Fuentes, who traveled with her
brother Danelo and Paola Astorga, his girlfriend. Once they
reached the city, they ascertained that the tire had eight
puncture marks.

Phone calls were recieved yesterday from news media in Santiago,
Colombia, Argentina and researchers linked to paranormal
subjects all day, requesting more background information on the
sightings of strange animals in Pampa Acha, near the Presencias
Tutelares sculpture.

"La Estrella" also received a variety of opinions to account for
the phenomenon, substantiating the opinion given by ostrich
breeder Ricardo Arancibia, who claims that what the traveling
families encountered on the road were these birds, which had
escaped from another area breeder.

Yesterday, avian biologist Ronny Peredo provided information
substantiating Arancibia's remarks, saying that ostriches can
indeed reach speeds of 100 kilometers an hour, between 72 and 96
KMH to be exact, and are able to take flying leaps.

"We must udnerstand that at night, and when people have not seen
an ostrich up close and personally, they tend to be startled and
confuse things," Peredo explained. The biologist added that one
of the characteristics that most led him to think that this type
of flightless bird was involved is the description of the
creature's wings being swept backward. "This is typical of these
birds, because when they run, they extend their short wings
backward, precisely to keep their balance, and that's what they
often do when they encounter people."

Further supporting information can be found in the height and
color of these birds, which coincides with the descriptions
given of the creatures, which is to say, standing nearly 2
meters tall and grey in color. With regard to the question of
would ostriches be able to survive two months alone in the
desert, Peredo said that it is probable that they adapted to
their environment "because they eat everything, from insects to
branches, fruits, anything they can get a hold of, and it is
likely that they would come close to the highway to feed."

However, Dario Riquelme, the first one to go public with his
story of the strange encounter with these beings, completely
rejected the statements involving ostriches, because he is sure
of having seen something he'd never seen before. Furthermore, he
claims being knowledgeable about these brids, as well as the
=F1and=FA, and says that neither bird looks anything like what he
and the family of Army official Hernan Cuevas saw in the Pampa
Acha sector last Thursday night. "I was afraid of being
ridiculed when I told my story. Now those who say that ostriches
are involved are the ridiculous ones. What they say is a laugh,
because they don't look anything like what we saw, and one thing
has nothing to do with another," he said decisively.


Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Liliana Nunez






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              Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:36:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 16:38:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Stanford


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 02:32:05 -0500
>Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites

>>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 08:21:17 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites

>>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 16:04:39 -0700
>>>Subject: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites

>>>Source: BBC News

>>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3530748.stm

>>>"One of the top places in the world to find meteorites is North
>>>America, due to its featureless landscape, which allows the
>>>meteorites to be spotted easily. Therefore, looking in similar
>>>landscapes in the UK could also be lucrative," says Dr

>>Yeah, those Rocky Mountains are not much of a feature.Two or
>>three feet high at the most. Easy to find meteorites there. You
>>can pick 'em up by the handful.

>Not a very flattering description.....

>But if meteorite hunting gets really popular... it could yield a
>treasure-trove indeed.

>The metal-detector makers will be smiling.


Hi Kyle,

So will we meteorite collectors, because more meteorites will
become available.

If anyone wants to do some meteorite hunting, feel free ask me,
privately, for the best references to help you look effectively,
if you don't already know the best procedures.


Ray Stanford







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              Re: Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF -

From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:40:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 16:45:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF -


>From: Nicholas Redfern <nick.redfern.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:43:24 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 09:10:57 -0500
>>Subject: Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF

>I have just read Max Burns' piece on Dave Clarke and Andy
>Roberts.

>Max states that with Andy and Dave I took the easy option re
>their views/comments, changed my opinions on the Berwyn case
>because of Andy's attacks and am now quite pally with the
>terrible twosome and stand in line rather than stand up.

>Okay, let's look at the facts (quickly, as this in no way
>advances ufology, but it does allow me to at least put the
>matter in its right context for anyone that reads Max's
>article). First, I don't ever go along with what people say
>because it's the easy option. I go through life doing exactly
>what I want to do on my own terms, hence the reason why I have
>never worked 9 to 5 for nearly 20 years - I don't like being
>told what to do by other people.

Nick, I can only say that this was not just my opinion but a
fair amount of people's opinions some who are very friendly with
you. We both know each other and I have spoken with you quite a
few times over the years. It seemed to me that we got on well.
We all know how head strong you are and on the whole I would
normally have agreed with the above. I knew that this was going
to upset you. But the fact remains that after Roberts
criticising your Berwyn Mountains stuff many in UK ufology saw
this to be the case.

You are saying this is not the case fair enough, you are only
one person in a long line of people that Roberts and Clarke have
brow beaten into submission or not as you state. However this does
not diminish the content of the article in the slightest.

>Max also states that I am now friends with Andy and that this
>largely stemmed following a vicious attack on me and my
>conclusions on the notorious Berwyn case of 1974. Saying that I
>am now quite friendly with Andy implies that this wasn't always
>the case. However, it WAS always the case. I have got on very
>well with Andy right back to the days when I used to subscribe
>to his UFO Brigantia magazine way back in the 80s.

Nick, I am very pleased that you have chosen someone of such
high moral standing to call a friend. I have spoken with Andy,
in private, about his behaviour and he has not offered a proper
rebuttal or apology to anything that I said to him about the
behaviour of him & Clarke. Don't get me wrong. I can always
spend ten minutes talking with Andy. Indeed we have spoken in
person in the last year in person and it was good to see him on
one of his few occasions with nothing to say of any of the
points that I raised with him.

>For some reason, so many people in ufology seem to think that
>if you disagree vehemently with someone else on a ufoligical issue,
>you can't be friends with them - which is crazy.

I totally agree.

>Fact is: Andy and I still disagree on a lot when it comes to
>ufology (and - shock! even on the Berwyns on a few points), but
>it doesn't mean we can't sit down and have a pint together.
>Furthermore, Max says that my turnaround and standing in line
>approach came after I was viciously attacked in Andy's Armchair
>Ufologist re my views on the "British Roswell" - the Berwyn
>Mountain case of 1974.

>Er, no, actually, that isn't what happened. What happened was
>this: Andy sent me his report on the Berwyn incident which, when
>I read it, led me to believe that he had come up with the best
>explanation for the case. Granted, there are still some
>anomalies, but as far as being largely solved, I think Andy has
>done that.

>And as someone who has never "needed" to believe in UFOs, I
>decided to discard the Berwyn case as being an example of a
>genuine UFO incident and I moved on. And this was based on me
>studying Andy's data and comparing it to other people's and then
>coming to a conclusion.

Is this the hoax data, or the alleged real data that Roberts
produces without full disclosure how can you be sure that you
are not just another victim of the Roberts dis-information game?

For example, Roberts has stated that Margaret Fry does not keep
detailed contemporaneous notes from her interviews in public.

That is a lie, and I have seen the many diaries that Margaret
Fry has kept concerning her investigation of the Berwyn case.

>It had NOTHING to do with me getting in
>line, taking an easy option or not wanting to confront Andy and
>Dave and playing it safe. It comes down to the fact (and nothing
>else) that, as far as I am concerned, Andy had solved the story.
>In fact, I fail to see how when presented with the evidence
>anyone can see my stance as anything than what it is.

>Now it is true that many of my previous beliefs on the UFO
>subject have changed and changed radically, and it's also true
>that this is in part due to Dave and Andy. But...it's not due to
>me taking a soft line or "towing the line" or bullying tactics.

>You really think I would stand for something like that Max?

I would like to have said no, but to be honest with you Nick, I
am going to reproduce a private email that your mate Roberts
just could not help himself from circulating around. It concerns
this subject of the "Blue Hare" and your comments. If you,
actually made these comments. You could confirm or deny this?

I was always of the opinion that you are a stand up guy and we
have a number of mutual good friends in UK Ufology. I was
stunned to hear from Roberts that you thought that the "Blue
Hare" action against me and my research and ufology with regard
to the hoaxing, made you "chortle".


Email Roberts to Burns/ Williams etc 24/04/2002

I think you're in for a suprise then Matthew. Also, I think you
should ask Nick R what he thinks about the material he's seen
from the book. Er, and I think you should digest Nick's comments
(received yesterday evening) regarding our experiments:

>Hi Andy, Cheers for this, which made me chortle. I see nothing
>wrong in your logic about seeing how hoaxes develop etc. Much
>fun and keep up the good work! Best, Nick.


Nick, much fun? This was not even a hoax developing, it was an
attempt to plant false info into my research. Nick you know me.
So you thought that it was good fun that I had my time, money,
and effort wasted. ? Not to mention that the agenda of Roberts
and Clarke was purely to try and discredit my research. NOTHING
to do with science. If you believe that then you are not as
smart as I thought you were. I am a bit smarter than they gave
me credit for and to that end was able to resist the
implantation of bogus data in to my research.

How would you be if they had tried that stunt on you?

>If you do, you truly don't know me at all. It is purely and simply
>that the research they have done on Govt files in particular has
>led me to alter many of my views.

Would you care to alter your views of Clarke & Roberts now that
a fuller picture of what they are about has been revealed a year
after publication Clarke remains silent and even un-subscribed
from this list rather than answer the calls that the silence was
deafening. Even though up to the point of publication of the
usual suspects. Clarke had an opinion on just about everything.
I have shown he is a liar. Roberts has been reduced to sending
private posts to updates mailers, now claiming that the debate
is best on a one to one basis.

You have read the article, have you got anything to say about
the large amount of damming completely footnoted evidence
against Roberts & Clarke. Or do you still support them?

I just know that it may damage your credibility if you were to
write another book with an admitted HOAXER.

>It really is that simple. But
>as I don't "live" for UFOs in a geeky "I want to believe" style,

Nick, I agree, listen if you say that I am mistaken along with
the other UK Ufologists. Then OK, I am sorry if that was not the
case, I did not mean to offend you. If you want to disagree we
can do that and still remain on speaking terms, as you have all
ready stated.

>I have no problem changing my views when the evidence suggests
>change is needed.

What are your views now that evidence presented suggests change
is needed? Nick, I don't wish to fall out with you, but let's
face it you have read the article and change is needed, not
apologies for the behaviour of Clarke and Roberts.

Alfred Lehmberg's review and the download of the PDF file of
The Usual Suspects is available from

http://www.rense.com/general56/RETRURN.HTM

Max Burns






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                Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Brock

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:59:02 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:08:32 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Brock


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:52:04 EDT
>Subject: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>This refers to something that came up in another post.

<snip>

>My original query focused on news and data from global sources
>like the former USSR.  I had asked that since the fall of the
>USSR, why hadn't their top secret UFO files come to light by
>now? Surely they've had their share of 'Roswells' and
>'Kecksburgs' etc. Why the silence, if there is one?

I directed you to the following source, in a previous post. It
may have become a victim of the nefarious post-eating server out
there in the Virtually Strange universe - I didn't check. In any
case, if you are interested in UFO reports from the former USSR,
go here. This IS the single most authoritative source IN THE
WORLD if you are looking for UFO reports from behind the "Iron
Curtain."

http://www.geocities.com/riap777/index.html

(Note: it will take more than passive reading of free
promotional PDFs to get to the good stuff).

>We're getting stories from various countries but none
>groundbreaking enough to shake the gum off our shoes.

Is it a foregone conclusion that other countries must produce
stories "groundbreaking enough to shake the gum off our shoes?"

>So why all the secrecy if any?

Considering the "if any" qualifier, why don't you find out if
there _is_ such international secrecy before trying to ascertain
the reasons _for_ said secrecy. There are other ways to find
things out than simply querying the Ufo UpDates list, you know.
Or maybe you don't know?

>How is it that every nation on
>Earth can cover up the UFO/ETH stuff with such efficiency yet
>still can't feed their hungry, stop malaria ( just read 300
>million a year get it and 3 million die.. you'd figure we'd
>solve this by now  after 10 million years of it. )

Again, considering the previous "if any" qualifier, why is that
you have leapt to the question "how do they do it?" when your
question should be "do they do it?" And what does feeding the
hungry and curing malaria have to do with it?

>Countries that don't have roads can somehow, someway arrive at
>a  UFO event and hush everyone up and cart away all the
>evidence?

Since you're invested in the coverup paradigm, I don't have an
answer for you. Maybe Beelzebub or the Jersey Devil lends them a
hand. Something like that.

>The only organization on Earth I know of with that much
>efficiency and alacrity is Walmart. You open a few acres
>anywhere in the world and Walmart will be there in a shot
>without breaking a sweat.

While I appreciate the humor in the above paragraph, I think it
is probably an exagerration.

>Don't the enemies of the U.S. like mainland China, Cuba, the
>Al Queda etc. know from the tabloids and websites and radio
>shows and newspapers and tv specials that the worst fear of
>the western powers is that UFO information might come to the
>fore?

This is the worst fear? Are you sure? If I was a "Western
Power," my worst fear from our "enemies" would be that they
smuggle a nuke into a major U.S. city, or that some loose
cannnon, Mad Dog Branzillo type takes over a bunch of missile
silos in the former Soviet Union.

And, whence the assumption that Al Quaeda and other enemies of
the United States regularlyread those last bastions of
journalistic integrity, the "Weekly World News," and "The
National Enquirer?"

>Wouldn't just one of these opposing powers take a glance
>around and find some bit of mindbending proof to shake the
>foundations of we 'Evil Americans'?

I'd say some of the atrocities we have seen perpetrated upon
U.S. civilians and others in the Middle East (impromptu
beheadings, for example) ought to be sufficient to rattle we
'Evil Americans.' That's certainly the intention. However,
Americans in general are becoming such a jaded lot that I can
see them glued to the TV, contemplating Bin Laden's
"extraterrestrial artifact," revealed in yet another non-
descript video in Al-Jazeera's possession. Accompnaied by the
attendant subtitles detailing how the "Great Satan" has kept
this news from the world for decades.

>Iran, Russia, China etc. could wipe us out with just one,
>count 'em, one great UFO photo, video, even a shin bone.

You really believe this would "wipe us out?" End of United
States? Dissolution of the Union, anarchy, looting, bodies in
the streets?

>Why hasn't it happened? Are we looking in the wrong places?
>are the billions of communication lines around the world so
>efficiently perused by secret government figures that no one
>can get an UFO word in edgewise?

No. Search "UFO" on Google, and think about it.

>Yes, we do get reports but they're far too often the 'fuzzy
>picture', 'my cousin's nephew's dentist's sister said' umpteen
>twice removed accounts.

You must have been reading Filer's Files. My guess is that you
haven't even seen some of the more interesting cases from the
former Soviet Union. Again, I refer you to the link at the
beginning of this e-mail.

>Perhaps we need to reach out more. I know the lines are thin
>and resources sometimes scarce but I think if all the media
>folks from Noory to Bell to Rense to Errol and so forth teamed
>up and put that reach out there it would really be a
>blockbuster of a force to be reckoned with.

This is probably a wasted admonition, but you're looking in the
wrong places for the sort of agency which you visualize, Greg.

>It'd be a new news service like no other because it's
>what 'the people' are interested in.

Who are 'the people?' Legions of Bell-heads? The sort that sent
in e-mails Hale-Bopp.com to say that Alan Hale had "Spooge (sic)
on his face," for not buying into the Hale-Bopp/Companion
garbage(just one example, I have many more), perpetrated and
perpetuated in large part by Art Bell?

>Strength in numbers.

If anyone has been listening, some of us have been advocating
"strength in numbers" for years, only to have our pleas fall
mostly on deaf ears. Suffice it to say that in a best case
scenario, the number of truly competent "ufologists" is small,
and the ratio of noise to signal out there, including on this
list, is high.

Rod Brock

=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------






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                     Re: UFO Community Bashing - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 21:04:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:11:17 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Community Bashing - Rimmer


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:34:16 EDT
>Subject: UFO Community Bashing

>Far too often I'm reading about how the UFO Community is this or
>that, disorganized, dispersed, unprofessional, argumentative,
>yadda, yadda, yadda.

>We've gotta stop this. It's too divisive. This community is
>global. It comprises the viewpoints of various cultures and
>beliefs and procedures. One of the most diverse groups outside
>of 'Star Trek' fans ( yet you won't find Star Trek fans
>fighting, we get along! ).

>With such a diverse group that's up against great opposition
>from the institutions that are sworn to protect and provide,
>there're bound to be mistakes, emotionalism, quarrels and such.

>Yet bashing the community isn't helping the community. There is
>no collective group that doesn't have it's share of conflicts
>and this community isn't any different. Well, it is different I
>guess because we're trying to make sense from a sea of nonsense
>and overlooked common sense.

I wonder how much sense it makes to talk about the "UFO
Community"? (There seem to be some very odd 'communities' around
at the moment. In another post, Stanton Friedman refers to  the
"questioned document community". Is this a politically correct
way of saying 'forgery experts', 'forgery' presumably being too
judgmental and 'experts' being too elitist?)

Does the UFO Community include everyone involved in UFO writing
and research, or just those who broadly agree with the views of
the person using the phrase? Am I, and fellow pelicanists
members of the UFO Community? Robert Sheaffer? Is Phil Klass in
the same community as Alfred Lehmberg?

Greg suggests that the UFO Community is a 'collective group'.
Why? It's true that most people interested in UFOs are 'trying
to make sense from a sea of nonsense', but whatever your
viewpoint is, you soon become aware that much of this nonsense
is being retailed by memmbers of the self-same 'community', so
why *not* bash the individuals spouting the nonsense - and note,
that this is just as valid for anyone who wishes to bash me.

I don't really buy this idea of a group of serious, hardworking
researchers combining to fight the 'institutions that are sworn
to protect and provide' (whatever they may be). Personally I
feel that if the 'UFO Community' is "disorganized, dispersed,
unprofessional, [and] argumentative", then I say excellent,
that's how it should be. It's called free, vigorous, open
debate, and there's far too little of it around these days.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm





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               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 22:05:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:13:22 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Harney


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:52:04 EDT
>Subject: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

<snip>

>Iran, Russia, China etc. could wipe us out with just one, count
>'em, one great UFO photo, video, even a shin bone.

>Why hasn't it happened? Are we looking in the wrong places? are
>the billions of communication lines around the world so
>efficiently perused by secret government figures that no one can
>get an UFO word in edgewise?

No - it's because the evidence you want released just doesn't
exist.

>Yes, we do get reports but they're far too often the 'fuzzy
>picture', 'my cousin's nephew's dentist's sister said' umpteen
>twice removed accounts.

Precisely.

John Harney







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   Aug > Aug 7

              Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:19:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:14:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 01:25:39 EDT
>Subject: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes

<snip>

>Why is it every country on Earth seems to have an equally
>effective 'hush up' campaign or am I wrong on this?

Quite a few researchers into political power structures say that
a world power structure exists which effectively "owns", by dint
of their members who own virtually all the world's visible
governments. This is because their members own the private banks
which masquerade as government institutions, and consequently,
those members of this power structure own the national debts of
virtually all governments. National debts which are often
impossible to pay off.

Bottom line: Visible governments are not independent entities.

That could explain it, since a cabal of the world's wealthiest
would very much not want UFO technology to leak into the
unclassified world until and precisely how they wish to
introduce such technology. Keeping the truth about UFOs secret
also may make fake stories about UFOs to be used for political
control.


Eleanor White







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 7

              Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:53:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:16:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Stanford


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:15:00 -0500
>Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 02:32:05 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites

>>But if meteorite hunting gets really popular... it could yield a
>>treasure-trove indeed.

>>The metal-detector makers will be smiling.

>At least for the iron meteorite hunters.They don't work to good
>for those condritic types. A person can get good money for those
>Mars meteorites.

>Hey, who's that dude who finds all those meteorites out in
>Arizona and New Mexico? I bought his meterorite/tektite book but
>can't remember. Claims to be the owner of the largest private
>extra-terrestrial materials collection.

He's Robert A. Haag, of Tucson, Arizona

http://www.meteoriteman.com/

Actually, Bob buys or trades for most of his meteorites. Yes, he
has the largest and finest private collection of meteorites in
the world.  Bob Haag's 2003 edition 'Collection of Meteorites'
is, photographically, the best meteorite book ever! 280 color
photos and 128 pages. At $12.95 it is a bargain! $5.00 shipping
US and $10.00 overseas. You can pay by PayPal.

>If I had enough time to go wandering through the desert looking
>for meteorites... well, I'd use that time to do something more
>fun.

If you know something more fun than coming across a never-
before-seen piece of an asteroid, the moon, Mars, or even a
comet, have at it, Tim!

But just let me tell you that aside from potentially helping
scientists learn more about the origin of our solar system
(etc.), if you find one of the rarer types of meteorites, you
could keep whatever you like of the find except for the small
part you would have to donate to a scientific institute for
analysis, and sell the rest at $1,000 to $25,000 per gram (there
are 453.59 grams per pound).

And, heck, one can search for meteorites while out on the desert
for a UFO tracking trip. Just keep your magnetometer turned on
passive monitoring so in case you're busy looking down for
meteorites, you can know if a UFO comes around.


Happy Hunting,

Ray Stanford







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              Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 17:54:47 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:18:06 -0400
Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:43:31 -0400
>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>>Source: The Daily Gleaner - Kingston, Jamaica

>>October 25, 1954

>>Visitors from outer space may be mapping earth...

>>That, at any rate, is the considered opinion of one of the
>>leading astronomers in this area, the vice-president of Kenya
>>Astronomical Association, Mr. G. Duncan Fletcher.

Ray wrote:

>"One of the leading astronomers in this area...", huh?

...And proceeded to give Fletcher a sound thrashing for
statements made in a 50 year old article

<snip>

Hi, Ray,

Easy, easy. Post-1947 historical material I include here, or at
the Return to Magonia website, is for the most part posted as
just that - historical material. Indeed, you can find, at the
website, 50 year old advertisements for flying saucer toys, in
addition to many different clippings from many different
newspapers. Primarily Americana, although this particular nugget
happened to be from a Jamaica newspaper. Your scathing and
pointed analysis of Fletcher's position is understood and
appreciated, by why not save your critical thinking skills for
current lunacy, like the assertions made by Michael Salla and
his ilk?

Henceforth (if I include any further historical posts in this
venue, at all) I will open the subject line of such posts with
the word "Historical" and make a note in the body of the post to
the effect that:

"This article is posted as part of an historical overview of
post-1947 written matter pertaining to the subject of UFOs,
extraterrestrial life, etc. The views in these articles do not
necessarily represent the views of the poster, and neither are
they presented as casting illumination upon the the various
scientific aspects of the UFO problem."

My colleague Chris Aubeck has tried posting material from our
archives here, and on other lists like P-47 (material dating
from antiquity onward) but was similarly misunderstood (or
ingored/eclipsed) and gave it up.


Best,

Rod Brock

=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 7

                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 21:20:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:22:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford


>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:44:16 +1000
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:13:19 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:40:33 +1000
>>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>>If you wanted to be more objective, you could have modified
>>that, by saying there is an, "alleged witness".

>As a researcher I am waiting for more information re the witness
>not alleged witness but witness as passed on to me.

Hi Diane,

Your calling her a "witness" suggests a belief that the photos
are genuine.

>>But, I suspect your unconscious has spilled your real inner
>>knowledge to us by your spelling of the word "witness" as
>>"wittiness". Freudian slips are pretty witty and revealing,
>>sometime. :)

>Sorry about the wittiness bit <g>No slip, just a mistake.

Maybe, but are you sure you know your unconscious very well?
After all, it is, by definition, unconscious. :)

>>Since this photographer has made his phony photos available on
>>the internet for years (You may know where else.), if one is
>>willing to accept the testimony of one single after-the-photos-
>>are-out witness in preference to the self-contained evidences
>>that the photos are fake, then I question that person's
>>reliability as a UFO photo case researcher.

>The photographer contacted us only 8 weeks ago with a full
>statement and original pictures so as an investigative
>organization like MUFON we will look into the alleged story
>behind these pictures and collect evidence accordingly.

I would question whether your investigator has the photographic
knowledge to do that, if she didn't know just by looking, that
those are small models. Furthermore, the things in those photos
simply do not have the appearance of reliably reported (or
photographed) UFOs. Any resemblance is extremely superficial.

>>If this alleged witness did not make her claim before those
>>photos were circulated, I say forget it. Yet, she might even be
>>an accomplice of the photographer. An independent person might
>>be seeking a bit of attention. There are some persons who can
>>read of almost any event and convince themselves of personally
>>having been there. They are known as schizophrenics.

>Ray, I've been warned to be careful of these pictures and I
>am. If they are can proven to be fake or real then I will let
>you all know either way. But until then we will investigate
>these pictures with an open and objective mind.

It is not a matter of proving they are fake. The claimant or a
proponent must demonstrate that they are genuine photos of UFOs.

>>Even with that plea for investigative caution and rationality,
>>the reporter refused to cooperate. What a dunce!

>Not good.

>>So, Diane, considering the fact that what was shown in those
>>Maslin Beach photos was potentially well-known all over the
>>world, an after-the-fact alleged single witnesses should really
>>not play a part in evaluating those photos.

>Our investigator is no dummy and I'm sure she will cover all
>bases.

>>>For the moment we are waiting for Debbie's to complete her
>>>report.

What does Debbie really know of photography and photographic
trickery? What is her experience?

>>>I must admit these photos are great...

>If these photos are proven not to have been faked then they are
>truly great pictures of an Australian UFO.

You had said, "I must admit these photos are great".

What makes it a must? :)

IMO, it is irresponsible to call such photos "great" unless the
evidence is incontrovertible.

Trying to demonstrate the phony nature of those photos to one
inexperienced in photography, could be spinning one's wheels.

The burden of proof is upon the claimant, in a case like this --
 not upon those who question the photos.

Why not examine what comments I initially gave about individual
photos of the series, or those made by other observant persons
on this list who have examined them? For heavens sake, Diane,
can't you see the flaws we have carefully pointed out?

>>Great is as great does, and those fake photos don't do a thing
>>to help scientific UFOlogy, and potentially could harm it.

>Ray, I hope you don't mind me asking, but, if you can help me
>with any scientific evidence which you have to support your
>claim on these pictures, I would be greatful for your help?

For one, there is no evidence that they are real, and much that
in indicative of fakery. Tell me what evidence in those photos
makes you think they are great. :) I challenge you.

Why no disturbance in the water from which the craft had just
allegedly emerged? Great photos would show that. Why are the
shadows so dark? Don't just say it's because they are not first
generation photos and are therefore just contrasty. Contrast
due to reproduction works two ways. If the darks become darker,
the bright areas become brighter. That is not in evidence.

Could it be that your only 'evidence' is that they fulfill your
inner needs for what you think are evidences of UFOs?

You just demonstrated that you do not maintain a scientific
position, saying, in effect, that the photos are real unless
disproven!

I am not convinced that any more explaining of the plain and
obvious facts would help you see the light.

The explanations of fakery that any good photographer would
recognize immediately, which I pointed out the other day,
require no specialized knowledge excepting Photography 1.1.

Now, hesitantly, I shall attempt to share with you some highly
specialized knowledge that (aside from all the conventional
parameters by which photographers recognize such fake photos) is
known only through first-hand experience by a few physicists,
aerospace engineers, and others who have worked closely with the
daylight, color films my project has obtained, beginning in
1977. The broader world of UFO studies will have the chance
beginning this autumn to actually see the evidence I am about to
mention.

Briefly: UFOs emit a substantially broad band of effects,
including extreme-low-frequency magnetic waves (that are clearly
distinct from background 'noise' including solar and geomagnetic
phenomena) and gravity or gravity-like waves in the same low-
frequency range.

The gravity or gravity-like waves (of which we have well-
documented recordings during a daylight, visible-object filming)
bend light quite dramatically (evidence of which will be
released this coming autumn).

But, Diane, guess what happens when you get two or more of those
objects emitting such waves in field-proximity with each other?
 Don't feel badly if you didn't guess it, but you get an
interference pattern visible due to the effect of the
interacting fields upon light from behind the UFOs coming past
them to the eye and the film that hopefully is in your camera,
if you are filming a daylight UFO event, and thus have enough
light reaching the film to register upon it.

Now, guess what percentage of the time my project has captured
such an interference pattern when we film more than one UFO in
the same film frame.

The answer is 100% of the time. One does not get such an
interference pattern by filming multiple balloons, aircraft,
birds, or anything else, including models.

Aside from every conventional parameter suggesting small models
near the camera that a photo expert can see in the photos under
discussion, there is not a sign of the interference pattern that
results when one photographs two (or more) bona-fide UFOs at the
same time. When the patterns are there, they are linear-
geometric and usually quite complex (degree of complexity is
somewhat dependent on shutter speed, of course).

There is a second type of field-interaction that results with
two or are UFOs in the sky together, but it is only visible
under polarization bias, such as through a polarizing filter,
through a transparent dielectric (glass or Plexiglas) with the
light source passing through it at an oblique angle to the
transmission medium, or against a sky area near a horizon in
such relation to the sun that the backlighting is adequately
polarized. A combination of those is especially helpful in
filming the second effect.

That second effect results from two factors: (1) the pattern
resulting by magnetic fields of the UFOs rotating the plane of
polarization of the backlighting (visible only if there is an
adequate ion differential between the distal and the proximal
sides of the objects), and, (2) the interaction of the polarity
plane rotation effects of the various objects involved.

Since the photos we are discussing were allegedly taken with the
sun near the horizon, one might expect the second type effect to
have been photographed, also, if the objects were bona-fide
UFOs. It is nowhere in evidence, but the absence of the first-
described effect may be more telling of hoax than absence of the
second type effect, which involves subtle, alternately light
and dark, sinuous bands, visible and fluid-looking, around the
objects in filmed images.

Equally telling is the absence of any plasma-like glow discharge
area in the air adjacent to the objects. It is invariably
present in various forms if the object is in the air. Likewise,
refractive phenomena that are propulsion-related should be in
evidence, effecting the images of clouds behind the objects, but
they are absent.

That, Diane, is scientific evidence based our knowledge gained from
state-of-the-art UFO hard-data monitoring with cameras and instruments,
demonstrating that those photos are as fake can be, devoid of
scientific value to UFOlogy, and as impotent as Methuselah without Viagra.

I'm sorry that you do not have the photographic experience to
recognize photographs of small models close to the camera, or
such experience in study of bona-fide UFO films as to recognize
that alleged flying objects without propulsive effects are not
self-propelled objects at all. (They usually are line-suspended
or thrown, unless they are balloons.)

That was a very compressed description my scientific evidence.
Understandably, you are at a terrible disadvantage because you
have not seen the evidence on which my conclusions are based.
But, if you have an open mind and are seriously interested in
learning how to tell the real UFO images (if of high enough
resolution) from the fake ones, on-sight, have your group send
me a ticket to the Yellow Brick Road to Oz. Then if you don't
agree it was worth the investment, I will fully refund the road
toll. :)

>>I somehow don't think you're really sure about those photos
>>being "great", Diane. O.K., you are a blonde, but I've never
>>thought of you as a case of the fabled dumb blonde. :)

><LOL>This has nothing to do with me being "blond" or for
>example a man who is bald said to be labeled brighter than man
>with hair. <g>

I hope you've not lost your sense of humor, Diane. :)

>One thing you can rest assured of, Ray, I'm not stupid.

Nor should one think that you are. Sorry for any misinterpretation.

>I may look blond. <g>oopps! Hang on there mate while I get
>me Whiteout, I've just spotted another spelling mistake <wink>

>>Sorry, but "great" does not fit those photos. I could think of
>>a few short, descriptive words, but...

>Now, now Ray.....

>>One really lives in the fabled Land of Oz, though, if one
>>believes those photos! :)

>Ray, we're are the end of the yellow brick road, the land of
>golden & honey and we have the worlds most beautiful beaches and
>me!! ;) <LOL> That's why everyone wants to come live in Oz.

You also have the world's most dangerous spiders, the world's
most deadly jellyfish, aggressive and deadly snakes... but,
heck, send me a ticket!

>If the photos reveal a straw man or Tin man I will let you know!

They are the Ufological hole and not the donut, Diane, and I
have simply offered that fact and my experiential basis for it,
for you to consider. Once you have become acquainted with the
real UFOs, you will know how utterly sham and far-from-the-mark
that photographer's concept of UFOs really is. They are
incredibly more wonderful than those visually 'dead' models. I
certainly don't hold it against you that you've not had the
chance to learn the things it has taken me so many years and so
much work with cameras and other instruments in-the-field to
learn.

>Seriously now
>
>Ray I thank you kindly for all the advise and it has not
>fallen on deaf ears you bring up some very relevant points which
>I am looking into.

That's gratifying to hear, Diane.Please say "Hi!" to Bill Chalker
for me.


Ray Stanford





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   Aug > Aug 7

                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 11:35:31 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:25:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:18:10 -0400
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 07:23:35 +1000
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>To add to this, people who report their experiences to
>>researchers are self selecting and may have a peculiarity of
>>their own yet to be discovered.

>That's a good point. And just to make things more complicated,
>we then have the differing reactions of researchers to the
>people who want to talk to them. How do researchers screen the
>people they spend a lot of time working with? That differs from
>researcher to researcher, and certainly mucks up any definition
>of who, exactly, abductees are.


Greg,

If you're asking how individual researchers qualify an abductee
then that's a good question. I have given up qualifying these
experiences because something new always turns up.

On another note, I have not had a person report a "classic"
abduction experience to me for some years, if there ever was
one. I now question that.


Sheryl Gottschall







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              Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 18:42:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:28:03 -0400
Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:43:31 -0400
>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>>From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
>>To: Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>>Source: The Daily Gleaner - Kingston, Jamaica

>>October 25, 1954

>>Visitors from outer space may be mapping earth

>>By Ronald Batchelor
>>Reuters Correspondent

>>Nairobi

>>Visitors from outer space are probably observing and mapping the
>>Earth and have directing their recent attentions to East
>>Africa.

>>That, at any rate, is the considered opinion of one of the
>>leading astronomers in this area, the vice-president of Kenya
>>Astronomical Association, Mr. G. Duncan Fletcher.

>"One of the leading astronomers in this area...", huh? Well, how
>many professional astronomers are in Kenya? :) They even have
>problems getting jobs in the USA. Fletcher has been making pro-
>E.T. statements for decades now, but he never has been able to
>impress his colleagues, and one can see why. See, e.g., below:

>>He put forward this startling and eerie suggestion after a
>>deluge of reports from scores of observers throughout East
>>Africa, who claim to have seen "flying saucers."
>>The most encouraging thing about reports of unidentified flying
>>objects (or U.F.O. as they are labelled officially here), Mr.
>>Fletcher avers, is that "they seemed to be friendly towards the
>>people of this planet."

>I haven't noticed any help with our multiple planetary crises,
>from environment to wars.

To give Fletcher the benefit of the doubt, perhaps what he had
in mind was that the UFO occupants have not, after 57 years,
taken over the Earth, wiped us out or enslaved us, and their
UFOs have much more often than not retreated from approaches of
military aircraft.

>>Mr. Fletcher is convinced that the objects come from outer
>>space and declares that "their behaviour cannot be mistaken
>>for a meteorite which, on coming into contact with our
>>atmosphere, is pulled at an ever-increasing velocity by gravity
>>towards the earth. The velocity becomes so great that the
>>objects burns up because of the intense heat generated by
>>friction with our atmosphere.

>>"A meteorite does not turn or hover in the air. Its path is a
>>parabolic curve similar to that of shell fired from a gun.
>>Therefore the things which we have seen are undoubtedly
>>unidentified flying objects."

>Also, Fletcher may be so old, these days, that he has forgotten
>this too: The paths of meteors and bullets fired from guns are
>elliptical, not parabolic.

You may get a bit of feedback on that one, Ray. The bullet's
trajectory as fired on the Earth, neglecting air resistance, is
parabolic. So also, as far as I know, the meteor, if air
resistance were to be neglected. But I suppose a meteroid that
doesn't get captured in the atmosphere could be in an elliptical
orbit.

But how about Fletcher's statement that: "a meteorite which, on
coming into contact with our atmosphere, is pulled at an ever-
increasing velocity by gravity towards the earth." Due to the
usual very large differential speed between the meteoroid and
the Earth, a potential meteoroid has to be "aimed" pretty
closely at Earth in the first place (when far out) before
standing a chance of becoming a meteor or meteorite, as I see
it. When that happens, air resistance is so important that the
meteor is quickly slowed down. It's the case of a meteoroid
that's close to being in Earth's orbit initially that, if caught
within the Earth's gravitational pull, would undergo significant
acceleration towards the earth before encountering friction. But
I have no idea what fraction of potential meteors fall into this
latter category even though my professional career was in an
area of meteorology, (the non-astronomical kind).


Jim Deardorff








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               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 21:36:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:30:21 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:52:04 EDT
>Subject: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>Don't the enemies of the U.S. like mainland China, Cuba, the Al
>Queda etc. know from the tabloids and websites and radio shows
>and newspapers and tv specials that the worst fear of the
>western powers is that UFO information might come to the fore?
>Wouldn't just one of these opposing powers take a glance around
>and find some bit of mindbending proof to shake the foundations
>of we 'Evil Americans'?

>Iran, Russia, China etc. could wipe us out with just one, count
>'em, one great UFO photo, video, even a shin bone.

Assuming they had photos that were so sensational that they
could "wipe out" the United States with them, then just might
wipe themselves out, too. I think China is more interested in
maintaining a favorable trade balance with the US than it is in
destroying one of its most lucrative markets - and risking the
destruction of the authority of the Communist state as well by
exposing its citizens to contact with whatever dangerous ideas
the ETs might have. What if ETs turned out to be capitalists who
thought Karl Marx was an idiot?

>Yes, we do get reports but they're far too often the 'fuzzy
>picture', 'my cousin's nephew's dentist's sister said' umpteen
>twice removed accounts.

That's not completely true; the authenticity of the Barauna
photographs was endorsed by the Brazilian government at the
time. The photos were sufficiently clear to reduce some
contemporary "skeptics" into alleging they were fakes
perpetrated using 21st Century computer technology - back in the
1950's.

There are quite a few governments that have shown they're not a
part of any global "secret agenda," so I see no reason to
suspect such a vast conspiracy exists. I'd leave that sort of
conspiracy theory to folks like Seth Shostak. It's one of his
"talking points," which he used successfully in his debate with
Stan Friedman to divert the discussion from the compelling
evidence of a UFO coverup by the United States Air Force.

It is true that while a number of foreign governments have made
official statements conceding that UFOs were a concern to them,
none has pushed vigorously for the UFO issue to be made a focus
of international concern. Except one. The tiny island nation of
Grenada. The United States invaded it. (A "preemptive" war that
people seem to have forgotten about).

The real motive for the agression against Grenada was most
likely political. The Reagan Administration needed a cheap and
quick military conquest after suffering some bad foreign policy
setbacks in the Middle East. But the added bonus of shutting up
Grenada's eccentric leader about UFOs certainly must have
pleased some segments of the U.S. military command.








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                      Press Release - NUFOC - 08-07-04

From: Stephen Bassett <ParadigmRG.nul>
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 03:40:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:34:42 -0400
Subject: Press Release - NUFOC - 08-07-04


PRG
Paradigm Research Group

Hollywood, CA - The National UFO Conference (NUFOC) has been
scheduled for October 29-31, 2004 at the Renaissance Hotel in
Hollywood, CA. The conference website is:

http://www.nufoc.org

Stephen Bassett, Executive Director of PRG and a conference
speaker, commented, "I hope this becomes the permanent home for
the NUFOC. It could be the "conference to the stars" offering an
exceptional opportunity for entertainment professionals from
behind and in front of the camera to meet and learn from the top
researchers and activists dealing with extraterrestrial-related
phenomena and exopolitics. It is my understanding that dozens of
Hollywood celebs known to have great interest in these issues
will soon receive VIP invitations to attend."

Speakers include: Stephen Bassett, Peter Davenport, Paul Davids,
Richard Dolan, Ann Druffel, John Greenewald, Leslie Kean,
Dr. Lynn Kitei, Robert Salas, Terry Hansen, Dr. Robert Wood,

The ultra-stylish Renaissance Hollywood Hotel is destined for
fame as the premier luxury property in the movie-making capital
of the world. Boasting a sophisticated mid-century modern design
and breathtaking views of LA, this dazzling landmark hotel
captures the legendary glamour and excitement of Hollywood's
illustrious past. As cornerstone of the spectacular Hollywood &
Highland retail and entertainment destination, the Renaissance
Hollywood Hotel is located among trend-setting shops, world-
class restaurants, legendary landmarks and state-of-the-art
entertainment venues, including Kodak Theatre - new home of the
Academy Awards ceremonies! The hotel's design and collection of
contemporary artwork provide a truly creative atmosphere.

Chairman: Dr. John Miller
Chairwoman: Lisa Davis

Contact NUFOC: (310) 514-1595
        lisadavis.nul
________________________________________________________

Paradigm Research Group
E-mail: ParadigmRG.nul
URL: www.paradigmclock.com
Cell: 202-431-2459
4938 Hampden Lane, #161
Bethesda, MD 20814
_________________________________________________________







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   Aug > Aug 7

                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 11:19:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:43:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate -  Allan


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:07:12 -0300
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:25:35 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 22:53:02 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate
>>>Is this supposed to prove nobody could have found the Aug,1,

>>>The forger had no need to ask the library archivist for dates of
>>>the Truman-Smith meetings. He simply requested the Truman
>>>appointments for, say, June 1949 to Nov. 1950. He did the
>>>research himself, discovered the August 1, 1950 meeting and
>>>found that it was the only such meeting for the period in
>>>question. He then inserted that date in the Ike briefing memo.
>>>This would have been long before you visited the library.

>>>Thus no insider was involved.

>>>There must be numerous historians who used the Truman diaries
>>>for this period. No archivist could possibly remember which of
>>>them did what, nor would the library disclose the names of
>>>previous visitors (unless by police or court order I presume).

>>Cogent beyond reproach.

>Cogent? Absurd as noted in my response. Exactly the approach a
>forger would use

>>if he wanted the document to be "verifiable". Particularly
>>clever if the forger knew the recipient (Moore) would do the
>>research... or have associate(s) who would.

>Really? Are you an expert at document forging? I take it this
>same forger also went to the Eisenhower Library, the National
>Archives,the Library of Congress Manuscript Division, the
>Harvard Archives,( etc etc)The Ike Library has 15 million
>pages.The National Archives Record Group 341(USAF HQ files
>through about 1957) had about 9800 feet of material or about
>1000 filing cabinets worth. They bring you boxes. You don't go
>in the files.

The forger did indeed (except Harvard). See my remarks below.

>>Since the documents originated in someone's mailbox and not in
>>any official archive, and since they clearly serve as an
>>indictment of the government as complicit in a lie, and since
>>our justice system provides for presumption of innocence, the
>>presumption must be that the documents are fantasy. The burden
>>is on those that claim them to be real. And so.....

>The documents originated in someones mail box?? Manufactured by
>an elf with nothing better to do? The Cutler Twining memo was
>found in Box 189 of Entry 267 of RG 341.

Kyle is talking about the package received by Shandera here.
What about those moronic 'postcards' Moore received, telling him
where to search?

>The EBD and TF were on a roll of film shot in the 1983-84 time
>frame according to the numbers on the side of the film

I can certainly accept this.

>>The MJ-12 documents are plainly too tainted to accept at face
>>value. Decades of attempts to authenticate them have proven
>>fruitless without fundamental conjecture (proclamation).In
>>fact, much of the evidence used to support the case also support
>>the alternative. These attempts fail to prove beyond a
>>preponderance of the evidence that the documents are genuine, or
>>anything beyond the capabilities of an informed forger who knew
>>exactly to whom the documents should be "leaked".

>>As a "civil" matter, the case for the MJ-12 documents fails.

>>Likewise, the MJ-12 documents neither bear on the question of
>>what actually happened at Roswell and vicinity in 1947, nor on
>>the integrity of those who worked to confirm the documents'
>>veracity.

>>Let us apply this kind of investigatory vigor and scientific
>>mind-set to more contemporary cases...cases on which time and
>>deceit have yet to have deleterious effect.

>When did you become a judge? How much evidence have you provided
>for the prosecution? The taint is from the attackers who make up
>charges as they go along.

>According to the Questioned document community, those who claim
>that a document is a fraud have the burden of proof on them.

>I think I should cross the fence and become a sniper instead of
>a target. No need to visit archives, no need to wade through a
>multitude of boxes of documents, no need to wait for years to
>get responses to Manadatory Classification Review requests. No
>need to find people who may be able to provide first hand
>testimony about the people and offices involved. No need to
>consult with archivists, no need to provide evidence. Just sit
>back in my armchair and create scenarios. When one is shot down,
>provide another.

>Soon I shall provide a detailed review concerning attacks on the
>CT memo. I have written literally hundreds of pages about the
>documents and travelled tens of thousands of miles and spent a
>ton of money. You guys sit in your armchairs and do your
>research by proclamation. For shame.


I do not intend to let this debate last forever.

STF is 'padding' his arguments with irrelevancies. We are not
talking about all the numerous archives, libraries, & classified
records that exist. We are talking about one library only in
this instance - the Truman Library, and the reviewing of T's
diary for a given period.

No, I have never been there. Nor do I need to. Yes, you can call
it 'armchair research', if you like.

Stan's visit to verify the Truman-Smith meeting was certainly
not in 1980, but in 1987 at the earliest.

The forger visited the said library no later than 1984.

I guess his research took more than one visit but cannot be
sure. I am positive the Truman appointments diaries for, say, 12
months do not amount to tons of paper, though they would take
some time to examine. Nor are they classified (or the forger
would not have had access to them).

Computers? Why suggest computerisation? The forger did his
research manually and took his time, perhaps spread over a few
days.

Certainly he visited other research facilities, taking a year or
so to complete his task, before forging the two MJ-12 docs. sent
to Jaime Shandera. He did the Cutler memo as an afterthought.

At the T library, I would certainly bet that he found the Aug 1,
'50 date, knowing that STF, or someone else, would visit the
same library and verify it once the MJ-12 papers came out in
June '87.

Exactly the same argument applies to the Sept 24, 1947 date.
Stan tells us that the library staff managed, within about 3
days in 1987, to verify this date as the sole date of a Truman-
Bush meeting during an 8-month period, without Stan needing to
visit the place.

There is not one single aspect of the MJ-12 papers that cannot
have been composed by a diligent forger with the time and
motivation to do so. Not one.

And with that, I rise from my armchair to see what the racket is
outside. Must be those noisy negativists again.


Finis

CDA







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                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 11:28:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 17:47:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:48:16 EDT
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>Although I'm a professional in the arts, the majority of the
>people in my circles aren't professional artists although they
>are artistic.

<snip>

>I don't know if artistic communication is a common denominator
>of contact or abduction but it's something worth looking into.

The connection between artistic people and the UFO phenomenon
has been known for qite a while. Five or 6 years ago there was a
spate of messages on UFO UpDates regarding who played what
instrument(s) and so on.

One lady introduced herself to the Llist by pointing out that
she was into "music and UFOs" and "what a strange mixture that
is"... or words to that effect. We all know that Budd is an
artist, some know that Jerry Clark has written lyrics for
popular songs, I play keyboard (piano, pipe organ, synth, etc)
and have written 2 books and composed music with lyrics, and so
on (others can "trump in" here).

I do not suggest that the fraction of artists (howver one
defines that) among ufologists is greater than the fraction of
artists in the general population. I do not suggest this because
I have no idea what the statistics would be.

You, however, are, to my knowledge, the first to suggest a
definite connection between abduction and artistic ability.
Whether or not that connection can be made on a statistical
basis is yet to be determined. However the straightforwrd
approach would be to determine what are the artistic abilities
of all the abductees presently on record.







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   Aug > Aug 8

               Military UFO Video Could Be Key To Credibility

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 11:31:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 11:25:00 -0400
Subject: Military UFO Video Could Be Key To Credibility


Source: The Dallas Morning News

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/world/mexico/stories/071104dnin
tufos.39baf.html

07-25-04


Military UFO video could be key to credibility in enthusiast's
career (Jaime Maussan)

By Laurence Iliff
Dallas Morning News

Jaime Maussan has spent the past decade collecting possible
evidence of alien visits to Earth and maintains he has had
personal contact with other "entities." And now Maussan says he
has secured the most definitive proof yet of extraterrestrial
visitors, and from an unlikely source: Mexico's super-secretive
military.


MEXICO CITY, Mexico -(KRT)- Jaime Maussan has spent the past
decade collecting possible evidence of alien visits to Earth and
maintains he has had personal contact with other "entities."

He presents UFO photos, videos and testimony on two Internet
sites, at conferences in Mexico and the United States, on the
radio and on his new prime-time television show.

Entertainer, journalist and believer, Maussan is the guru of a
subculture of UFO and space-travel devotees in Mexico, where
there are a surprising number of reported sightings.

Like their astronomer ancestors, Mexicans embrace the notion of
life in outer space and are generally less cynical about the UFO
phenomenon than Americans.

"In no other place in the world is there such a commitment to
producing evidence" of UFOs as in Mexico, he said.

And now Maussan says he has secured the most definitive proof
yet of extraterrestrial visitors, and from an unlikely source:
Mexico's super-secretive military.

The air force tape shows 11 luminous flying objects that
military experts can't explain. So they sought out Maussan and
cooperated with his investigation.

With the video has come a new dose of respect, Maussan said.

That could counter attacks on Maussan's credibility by Mexican
scientists and even UFO buffs in other countries. While he is a
darling among some in the UFO field, he is also considered one
of the worst hucksters by scientists and skeptics, believers and
nonbelievers, many of whom have their own Web sites.

UFO Watchdog, which is much more interested in debunking UFO
theories than searching for proof of extraterrestrial life, is
one. A Chile-based Web site, "La Nave de los Locos" or "Ship of
the Crazy," likewise is dedicated to debunking UFO stories and
the people who make money off them.

Both sites suggest that Maussan accepts any and all UFO stories
and repeats them - with little or no skepticism - to make money.
The Web site UFO Watchdog has placed Maussan in its "UFO Hall of
Shame," alleging that the longtime journalist is a "promoter and
supporter of various UFO hoaxes."

---

Maussan, 51, acknowledges that there are bogus UFO stories, but
he said his new military-filmed video is bullet-proof.

"This is a watershed," he said of the video, which was broadcast
worldwide in May and was the top story on Mexico's nightly news.
In the history of UFOs, "there is a before, and there is an
after," Maussan said in the dramatic tone that has made him a
mainstream entertainer and global UFO "expert."

The video also may be a watershed in Maussan's career.

He used it on the June 13 debut episode of his two-hour weekly
TV show, "Great Mysteries of the Third Millennium," which is
broadcast live from his own studio.

On the show, air force pilots described their surprise at coming
across luminous objects while looking for drug traffickers in
the lower Gulf of Mexico on March 5.

Some of the objects showed up on radar, the pilots said, meaning
they had mass. Others showed up on an infrared camera, meaning
they emitted heat. During the incident, the pilots expressed
surprise and even concern that they were being surrounded.

At one point, one soldier says with nervous laughter, "We are
not alone."

National Defense Minister Ricardo Clemente Vega Garcia said the
video was given to Maussan largely because the defense ministry
was unaware of anyone else who actively studied the subject in
Mexico.

"There are more copies for those scientists who want to see it,
only we don't know them," Vega said. He added that the military
had no opinion on what the shiny objects might be and had never
used words like "UFO" or "flying saucer" to describe them.

Since President Vicente Fox became the first politician from an
opposition party to hold that office in seven decades, the
notoriously closed military has been somewhat more open.

Maussan, who dresses casually and exudes sincerity, said he is a
skeptical journalist who simply presents the evidence.

He cites his credentials as the former host of the investigative
news show "60 Minutos," which is unrelated to the popular U.S.
TV news magazine "60 Minutes," and a long list of awards and
achievements.

---

Maussan is also a believer who said he has had contact with
"entities". The experience, he said, was shared by half a dozen
people and came in the early years of his UFO investigations.

"For me, it was something very important. It convinced me that
this phenomenon is real and that it's just a matter of time. The
most natural logic indicates that this universe must be full of
intelligent life forms, and it's very likely that they are more
intelligent than us and can reach our planet," he said.

Maussan said he did not want to go into the details of his
personal experiences because that would make him, rather than
his journalistic work, the focus of attention.

"We are talking about the most important story in history," he
said. "When you accept that intelligent entities of unknown
origin exist in our world, t changes everything."

While Maussan said he is not rich, his unique home in a wooded
area of Mexico City features underground bedrooms, connecting
tunnels and ongoing construction.

An above-ground nook is carved from a single tree and resembles
a pointy spaceship. But there are few other UFO knickknacks, and
his two young children don't seem particularly interested in the
topic. Maussan said his wife used to be a skeptic, too.

To be sure, scientists from Mexico and elsewhere are loudly
skeptical of this latest video. The usual explanations - weather
phenomena, offshore oil rigs, highway lights - have been
suggested.

UFO believers are unmoved and remain elated about the rare
military openness.

---

An admitted workaholic, Maussan holds twice-a-week conferences
around Mexico at $20 per attendee, and he had his first in-
person sessions in the U.S. on June 25 and 26, in Los Angeles.

He is a regular guest on U.S. Spanish-language programs such as
the talk show "Cristina." His own TV show can be seen by U.S.
viewers via streamed Internet.

"Many people ask me why the video was given to me" Maussan said
from his downtown Mexico City office, which is sprinkled with a
few UFO knickknacks. "Because of 13 years of presenting this
type of evidence. For the scientists, this was an offense. But
for the people, this was absolutely natural.

"The scientists," he added, "would have explained it away and
guarded it in a drawer so that no one could see it."

c.2004, The Dallas Morning News.

Sources:

http://www.ufoevidence.org/news/article125.htm
http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/world/9240256.htm
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/world/mexico/stories/071104dnin
tufos.39baf.html







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   Aug > Aug 8

                  Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Scheldroup

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 14:03:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 11:30:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Scheldroup


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:08:20 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:07:12 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>

>>Soon I shall provide a detailed review concerning attacks on the
>>CTmemo. I have written literally hundreds of pages about the
>>documents and travelled tens of thousands of miles and spent a
>>ton of money. You guys sit in your armchairs and do your
>>research by proclamation. For shame.

>So, again I am labeled a "debunker" or at least an "attacker".

>I feel ashamed, all right. Ashamed that I spent any time at all
>commenting on this expecting to be enlightened.

>MJ-12 - a subject with only one expert, only one valid opinion,
>and only one studied advocate.

>Gee Stan, you win.

>I wont waste any more time "attacking". That would be absurd.


One or two said statements caught my little attention in a short
review of parts in the new 23 page document.

by Linda Moulton-Howe

http://dwij.org/pathfinders/linda_moulton_howe/linda_m_h12.htm

"(3) Underneath the power plant, was discovered a ball-turret,
approximately ten feet in diameter. This turret was encompassed
by a series of gears that has a unusual ratio not known by any
of our engineers. On the underside of the turret were four
circular cavities, coated with some smooth material not
identified. These cavities are symmetrical, but seem to be
movable. Just how is not known. The movement of the turret
coincides with the dome-shaped cupola compartment above the
power room. It is believed that the main propulsion system is a
bladeless turbine, similar to current development now underway
at AMC and the Mogul Project."

"A possible theory was devised by Dr. August Steinhoff (a
Paperclip scientist), Dr. Werner von Braun and Dr. Theodore von
Karman as the craft moves through the air, it somehow draws the
oxygen from the atmosphere and by a induction process, generates
a atomic fusion reaction (see TAB 2)."


Huh?

Nope.

Nuclear fusion was not von Braun's area of expertise in 1947 but
for this reason being a major scientist involved in rocket
engineering, that I doubt he would have devised a new theory for
which was out of his respective field... I found one reference
to the small fact that leads us to say that von Braun was aware
of current developments of the day for advancement of big new
rocket engines to employ fission, fussion and antimatter, see
below.


http://home.mho.net/schuessler/science.htm

"WE MUST GO BACK TO THE MOON - AND BEYOND

The Wall Street Journal

July 20, 1999

Homer H. Hickam, a retired NASA engineer, says the next time we
go to the moon, we should finally heed Werner Von Braun's
advice. And the first thing we need to do is build some of the
big new rocket engines currently on NASA drawing boards in
Huntsville, Alabama. These engines, which rely for power on
fission, fusion, and antimatter, can be constructed using
technologies currently available. Once in operation, they will
put the moon and the rest of the solar system well within reach
for all of us."

Afforementioned:

"the main propulsion system is a bladeless turbine, similar to
current development now underway at AMC and the Mogul Project."

First off, a US patent # 1,329,559, was issued to Nicola Tesla
in 1916 which he called the Bladeless Boundary-Layer Turbine,
see below.

Here's a short description of current advancements using Tesla's
invention today.

http://www.iaus.com/TurbineDesign.htm
http://www.iaus.com/TurbineDescription.htm


Finally:

The Majestic-12 Document
"The latest delivery was July 2001 "

If we re-read parts of (3) above following its transcription
thereof document, do we notice any at all likeness found in it
to concept of one Chang-D=ECaz thesis in mid 70's, see below:
now compare this to above (3) MJ-12 document.

Wired Issue 9.01 - Jan 2001

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.01/plasma.html?pg=3D3

"By the early 1970s, Chang-D=ECaz was pursuing graduate studies in
applied physics at MIT. That was the era of oil shortages in the
US, and he decided to study controlled thermonuclear fusion as
an energy source. Still fascinated by flight, he joined the MIT
Soaring Association, a glider club, and became a glider pilot.

He earned his PhD in 1977 on the strength of a thesis about
generating energy by using magnetic ducts and diverters to
channel plasma from a fusion reactor to a turbine."

Nor am I debunk or believer in all parts of MJ-12 and their well
intentioned work by researchers, but strange things and sh^^ do
happen 23 pages and 7 months later.


John








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   Aug > Aug 8

              Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 17:53:07 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 11:37:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Friedman


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:36:46 -0400
>Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 02:32:05 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites

>>>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 08:21:17 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites

<snip>

>>>Yeah, those Rocky Mountains are not much of a feature. Two or
>>>three feet high at the most. Easy to find meteorites there. You
>>>can pick 'em up by the handful.

>>Not a very flattering description.....

>>But if meteorite hunting gets really popular... it could yield a
>>treasure-trove indeed.

>>The metal-detector makers will be smiling.

>So will we meteorite collectors, because more meteorites will
>become available.

>If anyone wants to do some meteorite hunting, feel free ask me,
>privately, for the best references to help you look effectively,
>if you don't already know the best procedures.

It should be noted that the state of Maine and the adjacent
Canadian province of New Brunswick - where I live - are more
than 90% covered with thick forests. One could easily hide a
host of meteoric material. On the average we get about 10' of
snow per winter. Featureless is hardly the appropriate word for
this region of North America.








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              Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 21:26:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 11:40:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:19:53 -0400
>Subject: Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 01:25:39 EDT
>>Subject: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes

>>Why is it every country on Earth seems to have an equally
>>effective 'hush up' campaign or am I wrong on this?

>Quite a few researchers into political power structures say that
>a world power structure exists which effectively "owns", by dint
>of their members who own virtually all the world's visible
>governments. This is because their members own the private banks
>which masquerade as government institutions, and consequently,
>those members of this power structure own the national debts of
>virtually all governments. National debts which are often
>impossible to pay off.

>Bottom line: Visible governments are not independent entities.

>That could explain it, since a cabal of the world's wealthiest
>would very much not want UFO technology to leak into the
>unclassified world until and precisely how they wish to
>introduce such technology. Keeping the truth about UFOs secret
>also may make fake stories about UFOs to be used for political
>control.


Eleanor,

I will bite my tongue to prevent saying what I really think
about this kind of 'reasoning', but at least let's have a little
scholarship.

How about naming some of the "quite a few researchers into
political power structures?" Cite some scholarly articles. Or
are all scholars with real academic credentials part of the
conspiracy?


 - Dick









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                      A Paper: The Year 1954 In Photos

From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul>
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 23:27:46 +0200 (CEST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 11:49:15 -0400
Subject: A Paper: The Year 1954 In Photos


Dear colleagues:

I am happy to inform that a paper titled "The Year 1954 in
Photos" can be read and downloaded at the following URL - in
English:

http://www.anomalia.org/fotocat1954.pdf

It is the first report produced from FOTOCAT, the Spanish
Anomaly Foundation=B4s worldwide photographic catalog (4,800
entries to-date), whose regular news reports are at:

http://www.anomalia.org/fotocat1.htm

I hope it can be an item of interest to you. As the author, I
will be delighted to hear your comments, additions or
corrections to the largest census of UFO photographic cases
recorded for the wave year of 1954.


Best regards,

Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos








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                     Re: UFO Community Bashing - Lehmber

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:31:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 11:53:10 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Community Bashing - Lehmber


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 21:04:43 +0100
>Subject: Re: UFO Community Bashing

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:34:16 EDT
>>Subject: UFO Community Bashing

<snip>

>Is Phil Klass in
>the same community as Alfred Lehmberg?

<snip>

Sure, we're in the same community! Just, Klass is in the
community '_cemetery_'. Thanks for asking. You live on
Convenient Filters Street, don't you? Or is that
Ardent Denialist?


alienview.nul
www.AlienView.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

Photo Album: http://www.alienview.net/AVAlbum.htm
(send picture as attachment to alienview.nul)
Splash page:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlienViewGroup/
AVGroup Splashpage http://www.alienview.net/alienviews.htm
Support AVGroup: http://www.alienview.net/help.html
http://www.alienview.net/N2Ltune.html -- The music in me...








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                Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:54:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 12:01:03 -0400
Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Gehrman


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:51:06 -0400
>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:03:11 -0700
>>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

><snip>

>>John, Roy, List, EBK,

>>I bought the last copy of Richard Brunswick's "UFO" photo
>>collection after following the link Don posted. I too find it
>>fascinating and well worth the $23. Brunswick "also believes
>>some of the photographs to be fake, though he's convinced
>>that the majority are authentic." Many of them should be
>>thoroughly discussed. John's vivid encounter and description
>>closely matches several of Brunswick's photos.

>>If Ray still has his copy, I'd like him to debunk the series of
>>photos on pg. 238-239. I'm not clear how he distinguishes the
>>frauds from the legitimate so those photos should allow him
>>demostrate these abilities. All else being equal, I think the
>>responsibility rests on the persons yelling "fraud" to provide
>>evidence for their accusations.

>>How many Updates List members have a copy of "UFO"? Perhaps we
>>could talk off-List?

>How funny! Go back from the photos to which you refer (on pages
>238 and 239) to page 234 and 235, and look at that ridiculous
>photo of a silly little UFO model, claimed to be a UFO
>photographed in "Sta. Ana, California - USA 14 May 1962".

>Then go to the photos to which you refer on pages 238 and 239,
>said to have been taken in, "Jacksonville, Florida - USA 24 may,
>1953".

>Hey, you really are very, very funny, Ed. Does the house and
>whole scene look familiar? :) Didn't you notice that, amazingly,
>the house and even the palm tree frond ("May 14, 1953"), is the
>very same house and palm frond transferred by time machine and
>teleportation to "Sta. Ana, California" on May 14, 1962!

Ray,

No I didn't notice; thanks for pointing that out. How strange!

>The only difference is that the old Cadillac has been moved out
>of the driveway and the photos were taken at different times,
>with a clear sky and with a cloudy one. That palm frond is still
>in exactly the same condition and place, nine years and
>thousands of miles apart. :) LMAO!

That's very true but what does it mean? Were the photos somehow
mislabeled during or before publication? Were there two
sightings over the same house on different days. Or did the
hoaxer use the same location for two photo sessions, using
different models, on different days? Were they taken by the same
camera? The same person?

I am glad you pointed this out; what a mystery. I certainly
agree: the four photos were taken at the same location. But that
does not answer my question. What's wrong with the photos
themselves? There are hundreds of photos in this collection and
you said they were all frauds. Brunswick also admitted that some
of them were frauds but that he felt most were authentic. I'd
like to know how you are able to separate the fakes from the
authentic. You claim to have a knack for this. I'd like you to
demonstrate your ability and perhaps teach me and other list
members how to be more observant.

>Zhazam! Your arrogant and silly question has demonstrated how
>naive, unobservant, and sold-out-to-belief you are, Ed.

I wanted to know why you felt that those photos were fakes.
You have not answered that question.

>And with such an appetite as you have for utter crap, perhaps
>you like that stuff resembling diarrhea clearly splattered all
>over those photos to make them look old. :)

I think you need to be a little more specific. What crap, and how
and why? Do you mean the material that seems to be floating in the
air?

>Some people have simply the will to believe. Others are even
>more extreme and have almost a conscious will to make fools of
>themselves. I leave it to other list members to decide where to
>place you, Ed.

I have a very open mind, but I'm also skeptical of people
claiming special skills and powers. You said that all the photos
in Brunswick's collection are frauds and that you know this
because of special skills you've developed over the years. I'd
like you to demonstrate them, not just talk about them.

>I have never been a "debunker" (as your wording implies), but
>since my teens, I have become increasingly a realist.

OK; "realist" is fine with me.

>Your ability to discern real UFO photos is about as good as your
>ability to distinguish between volcanic rock and a UFO crash
>site!

You're the person who tried to block discussion of these photos
by making a blanket statement that they all were crap. I decided
to buy the book because I was piqued by Roy's enthusiasm and
trusted his judgment.I knew you had been very wrong before when
you identified christobalite as agate, so there was a good
chance you might be wrong this time.

>Thanks for the opportunity, Ed. :)

Since you seem willing to accommodate, please explain how these
photos (UFO pgs. 234-235, 238-239) were hoaxed.  You say you can
look at a photo and know whether it's a fake or not. Teach me
and the list that skill. Is there any way we could get scans of
these specific photos posted at a site so other list members
could follow the discussion. I don't have a scanner. And do you
have an example of a UFO photo that you know is not faked?


Ed








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                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 09:38:11 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 13:19:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 11:28:09 -0400
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:48:16 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>Although I'm a professional in the arts, the majority of the
>>people in my circles aren't professional artists although they
>>are artistic.

><snip>

>>I don't know if artistic communication is a common denominator
>>of contact or abduction but it's something worth looking into.

>The connection between artistic people and the UFO phenomenon
>has been known for qite a while. Five or 6 years ago there was a
>spate of messages on UFO UpDates regarding who played what
>instrument(s) and so on.

>One lady introduced herself to the Llist by pointing out that
>she was into "music and UFOs" and "what a strange mixture that
>is"... or words to that effect. We all know that Budd is an
>artist, some know that Jerry Clark has written lyrics for
>popular songs, I play keyboard (piano, pipe organ, synth, etc)
>and have written 2 books and composed music with lyrics, and so
>on (others can "trump in" here).

>I do not suggest that the fraction of artists (howver one
>defines that) among ufologists is greater than the fraction of
>artists in the general population. I do not suggest this because
>I have no idea what the statistics would be.

>You, however, are, to my knowledge, the first to suggest a
>definite connection between abduction and artistic ability.
>Whether or not that connection can be made on a statistical
>basis is yet to be determined. However the straightforwrd
>approach would be to determine what are the artistic abilities
>of all the abductees presently on record.

If you pull out your proceedings of the MIT abduction study
conference and go to "Cross Cultural Patterns In Abductions" by
Jenny Randles. sub-heading Pre-Abduction Life Profiles, you will
find that this was brought to researchers attention years ago.

It says:

"It was also found that a large number had obvious artistic
potential (e.g. their sketches were expert and of superior
quality or they habitually wrote poetry or painted)...."

So, what does it mean?


Sheryl Gottschall








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                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 01:00:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:24:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 11:28:09 -0400
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>However the straightforwrd approach would be to determine what
>are the artistic abilities of all the abductees presently on
>record.

Sorry Bruce, that won't work.

All "abilities" are either self-reported (and therefore suspect)
or judgmental (and therefore even more suspect).

Since "art" became fashionable (rather than an ability of
slaves) we find all sorts of foolish upper-class idiots claiming
"artistry".

(Find _anyone_ who really likes modern classical "atonal" music
- it's only there because it's composed by the posing rich - who
have no talent for real music)

You're going to have to find a `scientific' test of `artistic' -
 and I'm inclined to think someone is already doing that.

Cheers

Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
real mail is CC'd edfile.nul
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







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              Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 21:19:12 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:26:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:19:53 -0400
>Subject: Re: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 01:25:39 EDT
>>Subject: Pravda Story On UFOs & Anomalous Ground Holes

><snip>

>>Why is it every country on Earth seems to have an equally
>>effective 'hush up' campaign or am I wrong on this?


>Quite a few researchers into political power structures say
>that a world power structure exists which effectively "owns", by
>dint of their members who own virtually all the world's visible
>governments. This is because their members own the private banks
>which masquerade as government institutions, and consequently,
>those members of this power structure own the national debts of
>virtually all governments. National debts which are often
>impossible to pay off.

>Bottom line: Visible governments are not independent entities.

>That could explain it, since a cabal of the world's wealthiest
>would very much not want UFO technology to leak into the
>unclassified world until and precisely how they wish to
>introduce such technology. Keeping the truth about UFOs secret
>also may make fake stories about UFOs to be used for political
>control.

You have to ask yourself Eleanor. If a country defaults, say for
arguement the United States, who is going to collect the debt-
and how? If you default on your mortgage payments the bank moves
in and if you make it rough for them then the police/sheriff
show up to enforce the bank's "rights" and throw you out of
there.

Let's replace you with the United States and they default, and
the cabal shows up and says get out and they refuse-who are they
going to send to throw the US out of the "house"?

The whole idea doesn't make sense.


Don Ledger







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                    Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 01:41:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:29:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford - Hale


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 21:20:11 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>It is not a matter of proving they are fake. The claimant or a
>proponent must demonstrate that they are genuine photos of UFOs.

Hi,

Sorry I disagree, you have claimed that the Brunswick Photos are
fake, once again I would like you to present your studies on
each photo to this Llist, to show how you reached such an opinon.

Please no more side-tracking, simply bring your research of the
Brunswick photos to this List.


Roy.








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              Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 23:46:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:31:29 -0400
Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -


>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 18:42:19 -0700
>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:43:31 -0400
>>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

<snip>

>You may get a bit of feedback on that one, Ray. The bullet's
>trajectory as fired on the Earth, neglecting air resistance, is
>parabolic. So also, as far as I know, the meteor, if air
>resistance were to be neglected. But I suppose a meteroid that
>doesn't get captured in the atmosphere could be in an elliptical
>orbit.

Wrong! In the first place, air resistance acts on both meteors
in motion and bullets shot from guns, so why bring in the
subject of airless passage?! A meteor is not a meteor until it
enters the upper atmosphere and adjacent air becomes luminous.

All meteoroids have elliptical paths in the solar system, and
retardation by atmospheric passage only modifies the properties
of the ellipse, constantly across time, but does not alter it to
a parabolic course.

Your statement is just as imaginary as your belief in Billy
Meier as messiah! To have a parabolic course, parabolic velocity
must be present. That is not the case with bullets or meteors.


Ray Stanford








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              Re: Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF -

From: Nicholas Redfern <nick.redfern.nul>
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 20:48:37 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:34:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF -


>From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:40:23 +0100
>Subject: Re: Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF

>>From: Nicholas Redfern <nick.redfern.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 13:43:24 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: Link to Max Burns' "The Usual Suspects" PDF

<snip>

Max, It may well be the case that other people were of the
opinion that I changed my views because of Andy and Dave
"browbeating" but the fact that this definitely wasn't the case
only goes to show that all those same people had the wrong
opinion. But I can't be blamed for the fact that these people
didn't even bother to pick up the phone and ask me or email me
but instead came to a conclusion about me on their own. Can I be
blamed if they came to a conclusion that was wrong because of
their inability to pick up the phone and call me to ask why I
changed my views on Berwyns, UFOs etc?

Plus, I wasn't "upset" or "offended." I just wanted to get my
point of view across to people who read your article and
specifically the part that dealt with me. Something else you may
forget or not know: implying that Andy and/or Dave browbeat me
implies that they were constantly emailing me, calling me,
calling people I knew, publishing things etc. Fact is: I've
never had browbeating phone calls, visits etc from Andy, Dave on
the Berwyns issue at all - or indeed on any subject. Nor has
anyone ever said to me something like: "I got a call from Andy
saying you better change your views or else." That would be just
ridiculous.

Andy simply sent me his paper on the Berwyns case, I read it, I
digested it and I changed my opinion because I felt his theory
better explained the data surrounding the case. And that was it;
end of story. No phone calls (anonymous or otherwise) from Andy
browbeating me into accepting his views, no veiled threats if I
didn't change my stance. Nothing.

In fact, aside from discussing a few years ago the idea of us
doing a book on the Berwyns, the above is where things began and
ended. I can only reiterate what I said before: Andy sent me his
Berwyns paper, I read it, I changed my views. And that is the
truth.

Now as far as the "chortle" remark is concerned, okay, I was
over-hasty here. My comments were not directed at you as such
and certainly not taking any pleasure in seeing you hoaxed or
out of pocket as far as expending money is concerned because
that is not my gig at all. My comment was a general one
(although I concede I could have worded it better) based upon
the fact that I have seen hoaxes conducted by people as kind of
a psychological experiment and then seen "researchers" endorse
those hoaxes and not ask too many awkward questions that might
collapse the hoax because the hoax actually furthers their
beliefs.

And to me, from a psychological perspective, this is interesting
- how people respond to hoaxes and how some hoaxes come to be
believed and then other people endorse the hoaxes - albeit
usually unwittingly. And I stand by this: that understanding why
people hoax things, how they hoax things, how those hoaxes then
spread and become part of the UFO "lore" intrigues me. I don't
do it personally but I maintain that the whole anatomy of a hoax
situation is fascinating when you dig into it - the motivations,
the responses, the creation of the legend behind the hoax etc.


Nick







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              Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 00:42:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:38:56 -0400
Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -


>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:43:31 -0400
>>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>>>Source: The Daily Gleaner - Kingston, Jamaica

>>>October 25, 1954

>>>Visitors from outer space may be mapping earth...

>>>That, at any rate, is the considered opinion of one of the
>>>leading astronomers in this area, the vice-president of Kenya

>Ray wrote:

>>"One of the leading astronomers in this area...", huh?

>...And proceeded to give Fletcher a sound thrashing for
>statements made in a 50 year old article

><snip>

>Easy, easy. Post-1947 historical material I include here, or at
>the Return to Magonia website, is for the most part posted as
>just that - historical material. Indeed, you can find, at the
>website, 50 year old advertisements for flying saucer toys, in
>addition to many different clippings from many different
>newspapers. Primarily Americana, although this particular nugget
>happened to be from a Jamaica newspaper. Your scathing and
>pointed analysis of Fletcher's position is understood and
>appreciated, by why not save your critical thinking skills for
>current lunacy, like the assertions made by Michael Salla and
>his ilk?

Hi Rod,

Good advice. I realized after posting my comments that it was a
very old comment by Fletcher to which I had commented :-o -
one, in fact, that I had in one of my old scrapbooks from way
back when - and, in fact, I realize that, the likes of Sala
deserve anything one can in fairness throw at them, IMO, much
more than an astronomer whom I now realize is possibly long
dead.

>Henceforth (if I include any further historical posts in this
>venue, at all) I will open the subject line of such posts with
>the word "Historical" and make a note in the body of the post to
>the effect that:

>"This article is posted as part of an historical overview of
>post-1947 written matter pertaining to the subject of UFOs,
>extraterrestrial life, etc. The views in these articles do not
>necessarily represent the views of the poster, and neither are
>they presented as casting illumination upon the the various
>scientific aspects of the UFO problem."

Excellent idea.


Thanks,

Ray Stanford








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                           Possible Mothman Photo?

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 15:49:33 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:41:13 -0400
Subject: Possible Mothman Photo?


Hi List,

While searching the web for the latest on the Mothman, I came
across a site called "The Mothman, The legend of  Point Pleasant,
WV". On this site, a reader had sent in two photos taken at dusk
of a dark winged creature standing on top of a bridge over the
Ohio River. The creature then flies off.

I downloaded the two images and ran them through an enhancing
process to see what could be learnt from the images. A close-up
of the dark creature can be seen, plus an enhancement of the
creatures facial details can be seen.

Could this be the first photo of the Mothman? The details show
why the Natives of the area called it the "Thunderbird".

What do you think?

http://theozfactor.nucleardays.com/mothman.htm


Barry Taylor








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               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 02:38:06 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:44:37 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Sparks


>From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:59:02 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:52:04 EDT
>>Subject: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

<snip>

>And, whence the assumption that Al Quaeda and other enemies of
>the United States regularlyread those last bastions of
>journalistic integrity, the "Weekly World News," and "The
>National Enquirer?"

How soon we all forget! Do you not know that the first target of
the terrorist anthrax attacks was the publisher of Weekly World
News and National Enquirer? A strange Iraqi address was a paid
subscriber to the National Enquirer, apparently an intelligence
mail drop. Some of the 9-11 hijackers lived some 2 miles away
from National Enquirer headquarters. Not that this proves
anything except that the Enquirer does attract a lot more
interest from terrorists than we assume from its reputation
level.








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                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 08:51:02 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:45:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 11:28:09 -0400
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:48:16 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>You, however, are, to my knowledge, the first to suggest a
>definite connection between abduction and artistic ability.
>Whether or not that connection can be made on a statistical
>basis is yet to be determined. However the straightforwrd
>approach would be to determine what are the artistic abilities
>of all the abductees presently on record.

Pause for trumpet blowing ...

I mentioned a possible connection between the abduction
phenomenon and the development of artistic ability in my book
"The Evidence for Alien Abductions" published in 1984. A
particularly interesting example of this link is shown in the
Aveley abduction case in east London.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 09:05:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:47:22 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 21:36:24 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>That's not completely true; the authenticity of the Barauna
>photographs was endorsed by the Brazilian government at the
>time. The photos were sufficiently clear to reduce some
>contemporary "skeptics" into alleging they were fakes
>perpetrated using 21st Century computer technology - back in the
>1950's.

What nonsense. This is a complete re-writing of history. The
Brazilian government did not 'endorse' the photographs, but made
an ambiguous statement which seemed mainly designed to avoid
having to discuss the matter any further. The present-day
sceptics have made no such allegations about 21st century
computer technology.

The debate is fully archived on this List, I suggest you re-read
it.

Oh, and by the way, jerry, when are we going to get this new
information which is supposed to blow our socks off?

>There are quite a few governments that have shown they're not a
>part of any global "secret agenda," so I see no reason to
>suspect such a vast conspiracy exists. I'd leave that sort of
>conspiracy theory to folks like Seth Shostak. It's one of his
>"talking points," which he used successfully in his debate with
>Stan Friedman to divert the discussion from the compelling
>evidence of a UFO coverup by the United States Air Force.

>It is true that while a number of foreign governments have made
>official statements conceding that UFOs were a concern to them,
>none has pushed vigorously for the UFO issue to be made a focus
>of international concern. Except one. The tiny island nation of
>Grenada. The United States invaded it. (A "preemptive" war that
>people seem to have forgotten about).

>The real motive for the agression against Grenada was most
>likely political. The Reagan Administration needed a cheap and
>quick military conquest after suffering some bad foreign policy
>setbacks in the Middle East. But the added bonus of shutting up
>Grenada's eccentric leader about UFOs certainly must have
>pleased some segments of the U.S. military command.

I think if the US military command were bothered about it at
all, I suspect they'd be quite pleased that the only political
leader openly interested in the subject was one who was such an
obvious fruit-cake!

It might be worth reminding American readers that as the Head of
State of Grenada is Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, when the US
invaded the island it was also technically at war with the
United Kingdom, a point which I think Margaret Thatcher made
quite forcibly to her friend Ronald Reagan!


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 09:09:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:49:00 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 21:36:24 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda


>That's not completely true; the authenticity of the Barauna
>photographs was endorsed by the Brazilian government at the
>time. The photos were sufficiently clear to reduce some
>contemporary "skeptics" into alleging they were fakes
>perpetrated using 21st Century computer technology - back in the
>1950's.

What nonsense. This is a complete re-writing of history. The
Brazilian government did not 'endorse' the photographs, but made
an ambiguous statement which seemed mainly designed to avoid
having to discuss the matter any further. The present-day
sceptics have made no such allegations about 21st century
computer technology.

The debate is fully archived on this List, I suggest you re-read
it.

Oh, and by the way, Jerry, when are we going to get this new
information which is supposed to blow our socks off?

>There are quite a few governments that have shown they're not a
>part of any global "secret agenda," so I see no reason to
>suspect such a vast conspiracy exists. I'd leave that sort of
>conspiracy theory to folks like Seth Shostak. It's one of his
>"talking points," which he used successfully in his debate with
>Stan Friedman to divert the discussion from the compelling
>evidence of a UFO coverup by the United States Air Force.

>It is true that while a number of foreign governments have made
>official statements conceding that UFOs were a concern to them,
>none has pushed vigorously for the UFO issue to be made a focus
>of international concern. Except one. The tiny island nation of
>Grenada. The United States invaded it. (A "preemptive" war that
>people seem to have forgotten about).

>The real motive for the agression against Grenada was most
>likely political. The Reagan Administration needed a cheap and
>quick military conquest after suffering some bad foreign policy
>setbacks in the Middle East. But the added bonus of shutting up
>Grenada's eccentric leader about UFOs certainly must have
>pleased some segments of the U.S. military command.

A quick correction to this point and the reply I've just sent.
It wasn't Eric Gairy who was toppled by the American invasion.
It was the Marxist government which *replaced* Gairy!


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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                 Things Are Looking Up With UFO Watch Tower

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 05:28:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 14:54:30 -0400
Subject: Things Are Looking Up With UFO Watch Tower


Source: The LA Times

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-ufo8aug08,1,1331757.sto=
ry?coll=3Dla-headlines-nation

08-08-04


THE NATION

Things Are Looking Up With UFO Watch Tower

* Judy Messoline had the space after her cattle ranch went bust,
and her modest platform now lures visitors from all sorts of
wild places.

By David Kelly, Times Staff Writer

HOOPER, Colo. =97 Shortly after her cattle business went bust,
Judy Messoline looked to the heavens for salvation.

She had never thought much of flying saucers but knew that her
San Luis Valley ranch sat in a region renowned for bizarre,
unexplained phenomena. So Messoline erected what she believes is
the world's first UFO watchtower.

"I opened it as a tourist trap," she acknowledged.

But it became bigger than that. Over the last four years she has
seen self-described alien abductees, psychics, channelers and
visitors from Pluto, Jupiter and points beyond come through her
door.

The straight-talking rancher has learned to bite her tongue
during these close encounters, occasionally of the third kind.

"Who am I to doubt?" she asked.

The last year has been her busiest yet. Thousands have pulled
off Highway 17 near tiny Hooper in south-central Colorado to
climb the tower and scan the skies over the craggy Sangre de
Cristo Mountains.

People search for mysterious flying lights, soaring triangles or
hovering balls of fire. Messoline, 59, shows documentaries of
local UFO sightings and discusses assorted odd happenings in the
120-mile-long alpine valley that stretches into northern New
Mexico.

The UFO WatchTower isn't exactly towering. It's a metal platform
in the middle of the desert standing about 14 feet above a
spaceship-shaped gift shop.

"I don't know why more people are coming," said Messoline, who
doesn't charge admission but accepts donations.

She's taking advantage of the newfound popularity by holding a
conference at the site next weekend with UFO experts from around
the country. And she's writing a book about her experiences here
titled "That Crazy Lady Down the Road."

There is certainly enough material.

"I had a guy come in and ask if I had a place to sign in," she
recalled. "I told him yes and he said, 'No, do you have a place
to sign in for us?' and I said, 'Where are you from?' and he
said, 'Pluto.' "

A woman claiming to channel the thoughts of extraterrestrials
rebuked Messoline because the aliens depicted in her shop all
looked alike. She said the real space folks were annoyed that
just one of their 157 races was represented. The channeler left
after buying a rubber alien head for her car antenna.

Then there was the trucker who said he saw a bright light above
the highway and later couldn't account for three hours of his
life.

"I told him to see a hypnotherapist," Messoline said.

At an ethereal 7,600 feet above sea level, the San Luis Valley
has always been a land of mystery, a place where the Wild West
meets the Weird West. Early Native Americans claimed "ant
people" lived underground here; other tribes talked about "star
people"; and the Hopi believed all thought originated atop the
valley's towering Mt. Blanca.

There are stories of Bigfoot sightings, clandestine military
installations, secret alien bases and vortexes leading to other
dimensions. New Agers and those seeking spiritual enlightenment
flock to towns such as nearby Crestone, where Buddhist prayer
flags snap in the windy foothills of the Sangres.

"The San Luis Valley was the first area colonized by the Spanish
in Colorado, and it's just been sitting there for 400 years
simmering in its own broth," said David Perkins, a journalist
who has written about the region for nearly 30 years. "It's so
isolated. It's ringed by mountains and there are a lot of
superstitions."

Perkins said the mix of Indian, Spanish, Mexican and Catholic
folklore might also make inhabitants predisposed to seeing
certain things.

Leslie Varnicle, state director of the Colorado Mutual UFO
Network, said the valley is an area of major military
operations, full of low-flying, high-speed aircraft operating
from bases in Colorado Springs.

"But that doesn't explain similar sightings 50 years ago when we
didn't have that kind of technology," she said. "This is one of
the biggest hotspots in the country for unconventional flying
objects."

The valley's history was relatively unknown to Messoline when
she arrived from Golden in 1995 to start a new life after her
divorce.

It wasn't long before people asked if she had seen any UFOs.

Messoline hadn't. She was too busy trying to keep her ranch
afloat. But dwindling pasture eventually forced her to sell her
cattle, leaving her with 640 acres of unused land.

"My friend said, 'Why not put up a UFO watchtower?' " she
recalled.

To her own amazement, she agreed.

After giggling her way through the permit process, Messoline had
the tower built down the road from her house. She advertised
with metal "aliens" along the highway. Soon after, she said, she
saw her first UFO =97 a narrow, glowing object sailing over the
mountains.

Since then, she's seen 19 more.

"You will see dots moving real fast. Then one will stop and the
other will catch up," said Messoline. "I have talked to military
men and they say no planes can do that."

Over the course of a recent day, about 75 people stopped in for
a look.

"I won't say UFOs don't exist, but I haven't seen any yet," said
Paul Orosz, 40, of Denver, looking toward the mountains. "A lot
of what people see is very explainable by clouds or weather
balloons."

Rick Castellini, 38, of Grand Junction said he had a friend so
in love with extraterrestrials that his wall clock showed the
time on Mars.

"I think this valley is strange in any case," he said. "It feels
like time has stopped here."








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                   Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 11:10:50 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:04:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Friedman


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 11:19:04 +0100
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:07:12 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

<snip>


>I do not intend to let this debate last forever.

>STF is 'padding' his arguments with irrelevancies. We are not
>talking about all the numerous archives, libraries, & classified
>records that exist. We are talking about one library only in
>this instance - the Truman Library, and the reviewing of T's
>diary for a given period.

>No, I have never been there. Nor do I need to. Yes, you can call
>it 'armchair research', if you like.

>Stan's visit to verify the Truman-Smith meeting was certainly
>not in 1980, but in 1987 at the earliest.

>The forger visited the said library no later than 1984.

>I guess his research took more than one visit but cannot be
>sure. I am positive the Truman appointments diaries for, say, 12
>months do not amount to tons of paper, though they would take
>some time to examine. Nor are they classified (or the forger
>would not have had access to them).

>Computers? Why suggest computerisation? The forger did his
>research manually and took his time, perhaps spread over a few
>days.

>Certainly he visited other research facilities, taking a year or
>so to complete his task, before forging the two MJ-12 docs. sent
>to Jaime Shandera. He did the Cutler memo as an afterthought.

>At the T library, I would certainly bet that he found the Aug 1,
>'50 date, knowing that STF, or someone else, would visit the
>same library and verify it once the MJ-12 papers came out in
>June '87.

>Exactly the same argument applies to the Sept 24, 1947 date.
>Stan tells us that the library staff managed, within about 3
>days in 1987, to verify this date as the sole date of a Truman-
>Bush meeting during an 8-month period, without Stan needing to
>visit the place.

>There is not one single aspect of the MJ-12 papers that cannot
>have been composed by a diligent forger with the time and
>motivation to do so. Not one.

>And with that, I rise from my armchair to see what the racket is
>outside. Must be those noisy negativists again.

>Finis

>CDA

Ignorance is such bliss. I asked the TL for the dates when Bush
met with Ttruman for a many month period in 1947 and ditto for
Smith in 1950. That was easy to look up, for them...In daily
apointments list (often Pre and Post) which were often
different.They alreadyhave cross check lists There are no useful
diaries in this regard. That is enormously different from "I
want a list of all Truman apointments and then cross checking
etc."

In short, I envy your chutzpah in claiming to have so easily
solved the MJ-12 documents puzzle without providing any evidence
whatsoever, and doing no field research, but by
proclamation.Comparable to the man who killed his parents and
then asked for mercy because he was an orphan. Not a fact in a
carload as Fate's Fuller used to tell Jerome Clark...pardon the
paraphrase Jerry.

Oh, by the way, do we have a name for this mastermind forger?


Stan Friedman








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                        The MUFON Conundrum - Part I

From: Michael Brownlee <michael.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 07:57:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:18:23 -0400
Subject: The MUFON Conundrum - Part I


The MUFON Conundrum - Observations from the 35th Annual MUFON
Symposium - Part One

Special to www.CosmicTribune.com

by Michael Brownlee

INTRODUCTION

Despite an intense interest in the UFO phenomenon and its
implications since I was ten years old, I have declined to join
MUFON or any other organization that has the acronym UFO in its
name. I have long been uncomfortable with the idea that we can
learn much of significance about a distant civilization by
exclusively studying its vehicles and methods of propulsion. The
overwhelming preponderance of evidence gathered by MUFON and
related researchers leads inexorably to the conclusion that many
UFOs are the craft of extraterrestrial beings. It has seemed to
me that by essentially limiting research to the study of these
enigmatic craft and the technologies involved, MUFON has been
all about the study of cars. Frankly, I am rather bored by
vehicles but I am intensely interested in those who drive them.

To get an update on rumored positive changes within the
organization, I finally decided to set aside my prejudices and
experience a MUFON symposium for myself. My report follows, in
four parts.

----

PART ONE: THE MUFON CONUNDRUM

While public surveys repeatedly demonstrate that a growing
majority of people accept the reality of UFOs, it is ironic that
organizations devoted to studying the phenomenon continue to
decline. A striking example is MUFON International (the Mutual
UFO Network), the oldest and largest surviving citizen-based
research organization of its kind, whose ranks have steadily
dwindled in recent years to some 3,500 members.

Since its birth in 1969, MUFON has struggled to distance itself
from the fringe of UFO interest and overcome the giggle factor
by positioning itself as a legitimate research effort whose
mission is the scientific study of UFOs for the benefit of
humankind. To do this, the organization has adopted a two-fold
research strategy: training and organizing a grass-roots cadre
of volunteer field investigators to document sightings, debrief
witnesses, and file reports; and recruiting an impressive
advisory group mainly comprised of PhDs and MDs who provide
expertise in numerous disciplines (and hopefully some measure of
scientific legitimacy).

The premise of this approach is that UFOs represent a complex
scientific dilemma. This orientation drives the primary
activities of the organization, which focus on sightings
investigation and the creation of a massive body of evidence.
This has produced a fundamental quandary for MUFON, summed up
succinctly by International Director and longtime aerospace
consultant John Schuessler at the organization s 35th annual
symposium in Denver, July 16-18: There is more evidence than any
of us can deal with.

According to Schuessler, in a 35-year attempt to prove that UFOs
are real, technological and not ours, MUFON has amassed such a
large collection of data ( sixteen file cabinets full of UFO
reports ) that virtually no one is able to adequately mine this
extensive database in order to connect the dots and draw
definitive conclusions.

In his theme-setting presentation, entitled Unconventional
Flying Objects: The Body of Technological Evidence, Schuessler
detailed the legal characteristics of evidence, such as first-
hand knowledge, expert testimony, witness competency,
authentication, official written statements which, if presented
adroitly, can add up to subjective proof. But proof of what,
exactly (throughout his presentation, Schuessler was very
careful never to utter the words alien or extraterrestrial )?
And who requires this proof other than the skeptics, who will
never be convinced because they choose not to examine the
voluminous evidence?

After more than fifty years of UFO study (somewhat ignominiously
self-proclaimed as ufology ), it is more than apparent that the
phenomenon is real. But much more challenging and increasingly
urgent questions remain: What does it mean? Why are they here?
How should humanity respond? These are questions that MUFON is
most reluctant to address (and indeed they cannot be answered on
a purely scientific or technological basis), which may be part
of the reason why membership continues to decline.

Meanwhile, MUFON relentlessly presses forward with its data
collection, in an attempt to finally prove the reality of UFOs.
For instance, Schuessler spoke wistfully of Project Pandora, the
organization s centerpiece strategy for making its vast database
(once it s all been scanned into digital format) searchable by
researchers. However, lamenting that the process will be
staggeringly costly and time-consuming, he said: At the rate we
re going, it will take forty years.

Here in Colorado, it is undeniable that the Rocky Mountains
continue to hold an abundance of precious metals like gold and
silver. However, the cost of extracting and refining ore is
prohibitive, so the majority of the wealth remains landlocked.
So it is with Project Pandora.

Another telling case is MUFON s infamous Abduction Transcription
Project, arguably the world s most comprehensive compilation of
testimony from alien abductees, painstakingly compiled from
hundreds of victims by more than twenty abduction researchers.
You haven t heard of this study? You d like to read the report?
Don t hold your breath. The project began in 1992 and continues
to languish and may never see the light of day.

Meanwhile, it seems that much of the public has long since
accepted the obvious conclusion of the reality of the UFO
phenomenon and no longer requires the proof that MUFON
investigators and researchers seem so anxious to deliver. As
Schuessler admits, The American people are saying UFOs are real
and that somebody s lying to us.

The tragedy of MUFON is that it stoically sits on a mountain of
data that could be highly valuable in expanding our
understanding of the nature and intentions of the beings who fly
the UFOs in our skies and interfere in human lives. Thus, the
challenge of connecting the dots and reaching conclusions
continues to go unmet. As Schuessler says, It s never going to
get done just with volunteers.

From all appearances at its Denver symposium, MUFON continues to
be in the business of amassing evidence, but steadfastly avoids
all conclusions or even inferences from the data. Worse, the
evidence is so massively unwieldy as to be inaccessible.

Proof of the reality and meaning of the UFO phenomenon requires
a willingness (and ability) to thoroughly examine the evidence
and draw conclusions hard work that skeptics naturally avoid.
Thus the proof is never seen. This is a conundrum that has MUFON
caught in a downward spiral.

Oddly, MUFON has now declared that calling UFOs unidentified is
no longer appropriate, for according to Schuessler the
organization has produced conclusive evidence that UFOs are not
airplanes, rockets, planets, weather balloons, space debris,
ball lightning, remnants of comets or meteorites, or constructs
of the imagination. Now he prefers to call the phenomenon
unconventional flying objects, meaning that they defy
conventional explanation. Well, of course they do. But MUFON
will not dare to offer an unconventional explanation of the
phenomenon; instead, they simply continue to collect more data.


----

End of Part I









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                                  Dr. Salla

From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul>
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 12:07:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:23:58 -0400
Subject: Dr. Salla


Sirs:

If it is true, that higher education in America is about
learning to use and to promote America's freedom of thought,
speech and action in advancing ideas, then in my view, it
appears you have failed the test of leadership, embarrassed
yourself and American University through recent action in
regards to Dr. Salla.

In the months and years I've paid attention, I've seen
academics, teachers, and too many other good people at many
levels denied their rights to freedom of speech, their careers
derailed and/or destroyed, simply because they were researching
in an attempt to resolve questions around the issue of aerial
phenomena.

At this moment, I am wondering what lesson students of American
University will draw from this amazingly audacious, dare I say,
scandalous(?) action in removing Dr. Salla from the campus? Off
the top of my head, the lesson appears to be, students (and by
extension any of us), have the right to America's freedoms only
so long as we use right thinking; only so long as the subject
matter in question is approved by those who inhabit the halls of
White Tower academia; only so long as the "approved" party line
is followed: No independent thinking for one's self is allowed.

Unlikely as it is that they would ask, I am wondering how to
explain this episode coherently to my grandchildren.

I suppose Dr. Salla should be overjoyed in that he is not going
to suffer the humiliation of being pilloried! Frankly, I do not
accept fully the views of Dr. Salla however, this _is_ America,
where mostly, we are allowed dissenting, if not differing
opinions; we are allowed freedom of association or
disassociation; we are allowed to be creative and inventive.
 So, why not at American University?

Sincerely, I hope you'll find a way to rescind this rather
heavy-handed, brutish decision, retain Dr. Salla with American
University and take advantage of his capabilities and experience
to advance education in America.


Gary C. Matteson
Norfolk, Nebraska

 "Posterity -- you will never know how much it has
 cost my generation to preserve your freedom.
 I hope you will make good use of it."
                     -- John Quincy Adams








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               Re: Follow Up On Origin Of Term 'Grays' - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:53:08 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:25:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Follow Up On Origin Of Term 'Grays' - Pope


>From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:39:33 -0700
>Subject: Follow Up On Origin of Term 'Grays'

>A while back I asked about the origin of the term 'Grays" or
>'Greys' in reference to the small gray aliens seen by abductees.
>I had a couple of private responses, which were helpful.

<snip>

>To sum up, it seems to me that the term "Grays" may have been in
>use by people in government or military circles who dealt with
>the alien presence as far back as the 1960s or earlier, though
>I'd need further confirmation of that before I can feel very
>certain about it, and I doubt that such confirmation will be
>forthcoming because of the difficulty of knowing anything about
>the jargon that was used in clandestine circles.

<snip>

This is not a term I recall having used or heard during my tour
of duty (1991 - 1994) on the Ministry of Defence's UFO project.
If we did, it would have been something we picked up from the
UFO literature. When having speculative discussions about more
exotic explanations for some UFO sightings, a term that was
sometimes used was "these people", e.g. "If any of this is for
real, who are these people and what do they want?"


Best wishes,

Nick Pope







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                      Re: UFO Community Bashing - Klass

From: Phil Klass <PhilKlass.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 14:35:03 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:30:02 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Community Bashing - Klass


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:31:00 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO Community Bashing

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 21:04:43 +0100
>>Subject: Re: UFO Community Bashing

<snip>

>>Is Phil Klass in
>>the same community as Alfred Lehmberg?

><snip>

>Sure, we're in the same community! Just, Klass is in the
>community '_cemetery_'. Thanks for asking. You live on
>Convenient Filters Street, don't you? Or is that
>Ardent Denialist?

Dear List:

Regretably,  I  am  not  yet  in  the  cemetary - tho  I  am
nearing  85  years  of  age. A  year  ago  I  moved  to:

Merritt Island,  Florida
535 Nora  Ave.
Zip  32952.

Same e-mail  address: philklass.nul








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                Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Brock

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 11:59:41 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:31:29 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Brock


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 02:38:06 EDT
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:59:02 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>And, whence the assumption that Al Quaeda and other enemies
>>of the United States regularlyread those last bastions of
>>journalistic integrity, the "Weekly World News," and "The
>>National Enquirer?"

>How soon we all forget! Do you not know that the first target
>of the terrorist anthrax attacks was the publisher of Weekly
>World News and National Enquirer? A strange Iraqi address was
>a paid subscriber to the National Enquirer, apparently an
>intelligence mail drop. Some of the 9-11 hijackers lived some
>2 miles away from National Enquirer headquarters. Not that
>this proves anything except that the Enquirer does attract a
>lot more interest from terrorists than we assume from its
>reputation level.

Either that, or one of the terrorists was standing in line at
the Megalo-Mart, purchasing envelopes at bargain basement
prices, when he happened to spy a cut-and-paste job on the cover
of latest issue of the Enquirer, portraying Bin Laden in a hot
tub with Vanna White and Pat Sajack, and it offended his
terrorist sensibilities, causing him to put the National
Enquirer onto the hit list.

However, it never was directly pinned on Al Quaeda, was it?


Best,

Rod



=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------








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                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 15:52:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 16:29:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 01:41:21 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 21:20:11 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

><snip>

>>It is not a matter of proving they are fake. The claimant or a
>>proponent must demonstrate that they are genuine photos of UFOs.

>Sorry I disagree, you have claimed that the Brunswick Photos are
>fake, once again I would like you to present your studies on
>each photo to this Llist, to show how you reached such an opinon.

>Please no more side-tracking, simply bring your research of the
>Brunswick photos to this List.


Roy,

If you don't think I have better things to do than explain how
each of those hundreds of ludicrous photos were faked (many by
similar means, and several using the very same little models),
then..... What a joke.

If you choose to believe, come on, give us _your_ reasons and
prove them authentic. I'm not holding my breath. :) The truth
is, you are just a dreamer.

I have real UFO movies and photos to work with, so why should I
waste weeks explaining hundreds of fake UFO photos that should
be obvious to a person with even a modicum of photographic
knowledge and a visual IQ of anything over 60. My work is not in
instructing visual morons in how to see, but in obtaining and
analyzing propulsion-diagnostic UFO hard data. If UFO
researchers spend all their time on the obvious fake, there is
no time for trying to understand the real.

You've latched onto that idiotic book of fake photos like a
fundamentalist Christian does to the Bible as the "revealed word
of God", as they say.

Get a life in realistic Ufology.

And let me make it perfectly clear that if you think I jump to
the demands of a willing-to-be-fooled person like you, think
again!


Ray Stanford








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                 HBCC UFO Research Regular Radio Appearances

From: Brian VIke - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 13:44:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 07:48:44 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Research Regular Radio Appearances


Radio Shows - HBCC UFO Research

Howdy List

I receive a fair bit of email from folks wanting to
know when and where they can catch the UFO reports I give on
air. Since a new one was just added to the list I thought I
would revise the list of regular spots I do.

There are lots of other radio shows I do, but these below are
the regular spots. You can go to my site at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/index.php

and at the top of the page there is the list of the shows and
links to listen in. Also listed there will be other shows as
they occur.

---

On air with Brian Vike Director Of HBCC UFO Research:

1. - Jeff Rense Show - Every third Friday in each month with
radio host Jeff Rense

2. - Lou Gentile Show - First Tuesday in each month with radio
host Lou Gentile

3. - Mysterious Powers Show - Every other week with radio host
Anne Strieber.

4. - Jack Landman's Cybercity Radio Show - Every Saturday night
at 6:30 p.m. CST with radio host Jack Landman.

5. - Feet 2 The Fire Show - Monthly visits with radio host James
Jancik

6. - The Big Breakfast Show - Weekly updates with radio host
Wayne Kelly

7. - KYX 98 FM Radio - Weekly updates with radio host Adam
Thompson.

---

Take care

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com
HBCC UFO RESEARCH Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/







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                          Re: ETH Modeling - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 16:44:39 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 07:52:31 -0400
Subject: Re: ETH Modeling - Sparks


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:03:49 -0500
>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 00:45:28 EDT
>>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:16:32 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

<snip>

>>>Well, Swords's work, as I've stated explicitly several times.

>>I've said a number of times now that Swords' latest ETH work I
>>can find, his article in your 1998 UFO Encyclopedia (which
>>references his own earlier work) does not make any reference to
>>testable quantitative ETH modeling by anyone within the UFO
>>community, Swords himself included.

>See Swords's JUFOS piece, cited in my encyclopedia.

Hi Jerry,

I see no indication in Swords' article in your 1998 UFO
Encyclopedia of his having proposed any quantitative testable
ETH models in his 1989 JUFOS article. Why would he withhold
something important like that?

In fact, this is what Swords does say to sum up in his UFO
Encyclopedia article on ETH and Science:


Swords 1998, pp. 372-3: "The only worthy objection to the ETH is
that there is little or nothing _upon_ _which_to_do_science_ in
a traditional physical-sciences mode.... It is a real problem
but perhaps not an impossible one.... It is a hard job. Perhaps
it is forgivable that academics do not want to try."


I gather from that and from the rest of Swords' article that "little or
nothing" of scientific ETH modeling had been done by _anyone_
himself included (and including 1989 JUFOS).

Swords' next comments are quite apropos in their application to the
"alien technology is like magic" and "aliens are too alien for us to
understand" type arguments that pro-ETH advocates constantly
throw at anyone trying to define rigorous ETH models:


Swords 1998, p. 372a: "What is not forgivable is their calling
upon alleged impossibles [impossibilities], without science,
without analysis, and with only an intuitive good feeling to go
on."


Exactly my point. ETH needs to be put on a rigorous objective
footing so that the subjectivity of "intuitive good feelings"
(or "bad" feelings) do not dominate the debate, "without
science, without analysis." Declaring alien technology to be
"impossible to understand" by humans, and thus not subject to
scientific analysis, is a copout.

The whole point of an "encyclopedia" is to provide a thorough
overview of a subject encompassing diverse literature so that
the knowledge is conveniently at hand. I am not going to the
time, trouble and expense (which I cannot afford) of obtaining a
very old JUFOS issue for an article by Swords that Swords
himself does not indicate in his much later 1998 Encyclopedia
article has anything about quantitative testable ETH models in
it. I assume from Swords' 1998 treatment in your Encyclopedia
that the earlier JUFOS piece was merely a more detailed survey
of ETH writings.

I do have Swords' 26-page paper in the 1986 MUFON Proceedings on
"The Case for E.T.: Within the Mainstream of Science" and I see
nothing in there about any testable quantitative ETH models for
UFO research.

If you have the 1989 JUFOS article in question (maybe you don't
either?) please settle the matter by quoting from it to show
that Swords did indeed propose a numerical testable ETH
scenario. If that turns out to be the case then we can mull over
why Swords would propose such an important scientific
theoretical advance in UFO research in 1989 then choose to
withhold all mention of it in his 1998 UFO Encyclopedia treatise
on ETH & Science, and why you would likewise withhold all
mention of such testable-ETH development by Swords in your own
20-page ETH article immediately following Swords' in your
Encyclopedia. Maybe Swords had gotten too much flak like the
"nuts and bolts" jabs constantly made at Stan Friedman over the
years? Or too little response? Clearly no one built upon any
foundation Swords might have laid in 1989 (if he did at all,
it's still not proven that he did) and not even he himself or
you built upon or added to it.

Is Swords making comments to you or others about this exchange
of ours on UFO UpDates? Is that why there has been so much
acrimony over such an abstruse subject? Is that it?

>>>More important, however, a question:

>>>Where exactly in the SETI literature has someone written that he
>>>or she would take the UFO question seriously if ufologists
>>>proposed a model of the ETH such as you demand?

>>I don't think I ever said there was any such magnanimous SETI
>>spirit toward UFOs, but I've said to the contrary that SETI
>>takes a hostile, debunking attitude to the UFO phenomenon and
>>has modeled ETH usually in a way that tries to debunk UFO
>>reality, illogically arguing as if ETH was the only explanation
>>and thus if that fails then the whole UFO phenomenon itself does
>>not exist. You need to get out of the trap of the "debunker-
>>antidebunker" mindset, which only leads to nowhere. Free your
>>mind, as they say in The Matrix, from the traps of past cycles
>>of hopeless thinking, and sharpen it with more rigorous
>>thinking.

>Naw, I think I'll stay there, since it's an issue that one can
>never entirely get away from, at least at this stage of the UFO
>discussion. To pretend, even for the sake of argument, that it
>doesn't exist and that it doesn't affect matters at just about
>angle is to ignore reality. In any case:

I am not ignoring "reality" by choosing not to be paralyzed by
the rigid and static "debunker-antidebunker" paradigm.

>My point was simply that in all my interaction with skeptics,
>both sympathetic and hostile, I have never heard a serious
>argument - a few frivolous ones, as you note - that rejected
>ufology because it had not modeled the ETH. ...
<snip>

It seems to me that most UFO skeptics and debunkers alike reject
the UFO phenomenon because it does not fit their subjective
"intuitive good feelings" about alien behavior (to use Swords'
words), but without scientific analysis to model ETH in a
rigorous fashion (though SETI types have tried to a certain
degree). UFO advocates respond with the "magic level of alien"
as apologetic to try to trump the skeptic-debunker arguments,
using one "impossibility" argument against another
"impossibility" argument. And this cycle goes on and on without
resolution because of a failure of either side to develop the
rigorous quantitative frameworks of ETH and other explanations
for the UFO phenomenon that can be subjected to scientific
analysis.


Regards,

Brad Sparks







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               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:50:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 07:55:52 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 09:05:28 +0100
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 21:36:24 -0500
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>That's not completely true; the authenticity of the Barauna
>>photographs was endorsed by the Brazilian government at the
>>time. The photos were sufficiently clear to reduce some
>>contemporary "skeptics" into alleging they were fakes
>>perpetrated using 21st Century computer technology - back in the
>>1950's.

>What nonsense. This is a complete re-writing of history. The
>Brazilian government did not 'endorse' the photographs, but made
>an ambiguous statement which seemed mainly designed to avoid
>having to discuss the matter any further.

What ludicrous psychobabble. The Brazilian Navy's report stated
(as presented on the CUFOS web site):

"After Brazil=B9s House of Representatives demanded further
information from the Navy, it was given a secret report on the
official investigation. The document was leaked in October 1964
to Coral Lorenzen, director of APRO. After reviewing the various
sightings and the January 16 photographs, its author, Corvette-
Capt. Jose Geraldo Brandao, concluded that the 'existence of
personal reports and of photographic evidence, of certain value
considering the circumstance involved [absence of evidence of
tampering, the presence of other witnesses], permit the
admission that there are indications of the existence of
unidentified aerial objects.' He also noted the "strong
emotional upset... in all persons who sighted the object,
including the photographer, civilians, and members of the ship=B9s
crew"

It takes a heroic effort of unreason to force-fit the above into
Mr. Rimmer's bizarre interpretation.

>The present-day
>>sceptics have made no such allegations about 21st century
>>computer technology.
>The debate is fully archived on this List, I suggest you re-read
>it.

I suggest Mr. Rimmer re-read it (or rather, "re-desconstruct"
it, since that's what psychobabble enthusiasts seem to prefer
doing rather than actually reading things). Here was my comment
on Mr. Barauna's apparently remarkable powers to travel into the
future and acquire technology not available to the average
person-- or even scientists -- back in the 1950's.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m17-005.shtml

>I think if the US military command were bothered about it at
>all, I suspect they'd be quite pleased that the only political
>leader openly interested in the subject was one who was such an
>obvious fruit-cake!

Quite a few world leaders are fruitcakes - including,
unfortunately, the ones with largest armies who tend to invade
small countries for strange or nonexistent reasons.

>It might be worth reminding American readers that as the Head of
>State of Grenada is Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, when the US
>invaded the island it was also technically at war with the
>United Kingdom, a point which I think Margaret Thatcher made
>quite forcibly to her friend Ronald Reagan!

Thank goodness we had Our Lady of the Big Hair and Ronnie Reagan
to protect us from the tyranny of the fearsome Grenadan military
juggernaut.







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                        Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 16:52:34 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 07:58:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Sparks


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 01:41:21 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 21:20:11 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

<snip>

>>It is not a matter of proving they are fake. The claimant or a
>>proponent must demonstrate that they are genuine photos of UFOs.

>Sorry I disagree, you have claimed that the Brunswick Photos are
>fake, once again I would like you to present your studies on
>each photo to this Llist, to show how you reached such an opinon.

>Please no more side-tracking, simply bring your research of the
>Brunswick photos to this List.

Can you tell us what was done to screen these photos for IFO's
and hoaxing? Until there has been a Hynek Screening and
investigation that is scientifically-technically competent to
eliminate conventional explanations, there is no basis for
treating this as a real "UFO", yet.







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                  Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part I - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 17:10:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 08:15:11 -0400
Subject: Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part I - White


>From: Michael Brownlee <michael.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 07:57:55 -0700
>Subject: The MUFON Conundrum - Part I

<snip>

>According to Schuessler, in a 35-year attempt to prove that UFOs
>are real, technological and not ours, MUFON has amassed such a
>large collection of data (sixteen file cabinets full of UFO
>reports) that virtually no one is able to adequately mine this
>extensive database in order to connect the dots and draw
>definitive conclusions.

With all the scholars running MUFON, I am flabbergasted that
they don't seem to 'get it' when it comes to getting a
collection of data to 'talk', connect the dots, and make
arriving at conclusions rather easy.

The process is straightforward, and I've mentioned it on this
List before.

You get some of the experienced ufologists to stop collecting
data, and instead, start at one end of those sixteen file
cabinets and begin to _codify_ each sighting, one by one. By
"codify", I mean assign numeric or alpha codes to every
attribute of each case file, and enter those attributes and
codes into commercial database software.

Example:

attribute = object shape

1  - point of light
2  - spheroid
3  - disk
4  - cigar
99 - other

(I've heard that MUFON has done some of this already, so this
may mean a push to codify the full sixteen cabinets may be well
within reach without requiring an army to do it.)

The ufologists undertaking this will at first continually be
changing the layout of the coding system, ususally in the form
of adding new attributes and code values, as they step through
the cases. A point will be reached where it looks as if the
attribute and code list is fairly stable. An initial "looks-
stable" point might be reached at, say, 50 or 100 cases.

At that time, the codifying crew will return to the first case
and re-do the coding of those first 50 or 100 cases. A decision
might be made to do this one more time, to the next batch of 50
or 100 cases, to assure reasonable stability of the code system,
so that very few codes end up in the "other" category.

Once you have a goodly chunk (how much, statisticians?) of case
records codified, even as codifying continues, another phase,
designing queries, which are short sets of rules as to how to
total up various codes and _combinations_ of codes, and maybe
perform statistical calculations, can begin.

It is through these queries that you will finally begin to get
some useful _answers_ from those sixteen filing cabinets of case
records, and those answers can be had in a tiny fraction of the
time it would take human UFO gurus to read and ponder the full
sixteen cabinets' worth.

More than that, the query results then beget more queries. The
best ideas don't come all at once. A query-able, codified,
digital database is always available as more sophisticated
questions occur to the UFO reseacher community.

That's how it's done, and I only wish I could volunteer to work
on it but my own activism group is where my time has to go for
the moment. It would be a thrill to work on such a project, and
the reward for doing the work is that as the codifying is in
progress, queries and even conclusions will emerge almost
automatically.

I'd suggest, by the way, that codifying the cases is probably a
better use of available time than scanning the cases, though
scanning is certainly a worthwhile effort too. A query-able
database will take up only a small fraction of the disk space of
a full scan, too. A current-day PC would be more than adequate.


Eleanor White







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                 Klass Not Yet In The Cemetary [was: Re: UFO

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 18:16:22 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 08:22:24 -0400
Subject: Klass Not Yet In The Cemetary [was: Re: UFO


>From: Phil Klass <PhilKlass.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 14:35:03 EDT
>Subject: Re: UFO Community Bashing

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:31:00 -0500
>>Subject: Re: UFO Community Bashing

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 21:04:43 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Community Bashing

><snip>

>>>Is Phil Klass in
>>>the same community as Alfred Lehmberg?

>><snip>

>>Sure, we're in the same community! Just, Klass is in the
>>community '_cemetery_'. Thanks for asking. You live on
>>Convenient Filters Street, don't you? Or is that Ardent
>>Denialist?

>Dear List:

>Regretably, I am not yet in the cemetary - tho I am nearing 85
>years of age.

Good Lord Phil, why would you want to be south of the sod? Every
day above ground, is a good day. Let's hope you stay round long
enough to be a pain-in-the-ass for a good many years yet.

>A year ago I moved to:

>Merritt Island, Florida
>535 Nora Ave.
>Zip 32952.

Ah yes, the ultimate retirement home. I'm surprised you found a
place left there with all of the Canadians taking up space. We
are gradually taking over that State. Could be a Province before
too long.


Good health,

Don Ledger








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                   Bill Moore On Radio Misterioso Tonight

From: Stephen MILES Lewis <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 16:26:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 08:27:04 -0400
Subject: Bill Moore On Radio Misterioso Tonight


Greg Bishop to interview Bill Moore on Radio Mysterioso
web/radio show:

William Moore, author of "The Philadelphia Experiment," "The
Roswell Incident," researcher, lecturer, co-"discoverer" of the
MJ-12 papers, and "bad boy of Ufology" will be Greg's guest this
Sunday night on Radio Misterioso.

Listen from 8-10PM PST (10-midnight CST)
Sunday, August 8th at:
http://www.KillRadio.org
In studio phone: (213) 262-0998

About Greg Bishop: Editor of The Excluded Middle magazine and
researcher into UFOs and Alien Writing (carrying on the research
of Mario Pazzaglini) and their interconnections with altered
states of consciousness and shamanism. His articles have graced
the pages of Fortean Times, Magickal Blend and others.

He recently spoke at the Majestic Documents/UFO Crash
Retrieval Conference in November of 2003 on his research into
the story of Paul Bennewitz, who thought he had stumbled onto
evidence of an alien invasion, but in the process was directing
attention to secret projects at Kirtland Air Force Base, in
Albuquerque, New Mexico in the early 1980s.

The Bennewitz episode provided the blueprint for wild UFO
conspiracy tales into the next decade, and a warning to
researchers not to confuse the authority of the messenger with
the truth of the message.

Wild alien stories cooked up by the Air Force Office of Special
Investigations that were fed to Bennewitz, and which began as a
simple counterintelligence operation, backfired and led to
renewed calls for disclosure of government UFO secrecy.

The strangest part of the story is that Bennewitz actually had
stumbled onto anomalous lights and signals that were confusing
and worrying the Air Force, Defense Intelligence Agency, and the
National Security Administration. Bennewitz also claimed that he
had pictures of an atomic-powered aircraft crash site near
Dulce, New Mexico.

The story will be told through Bennewitz� personal notes and
correspondence, as well as some of the verified disinformation
that was fed to him over a period of five years, leading to his
eventual breakdown and institutionalization.

http://www.ExcludedMiddle.com






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               Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 17:31:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 08:38:57 -0400
Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Stanford


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:54:23 -0700
>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:51:06 -0400
>>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:03:11 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>><snip>

>>>John, Roy, List, EBK,

>>>I bought the last copy of Richard Brunswick's "UFO" photo
>>>collection after following the link Don posted. I too find it
>>>fascinating and well worth the $23. Brunswick "also believes
>>>some of the photographs to be fake, though he's convinced
>>>that the majority are authentic." Many of them should be
>>>thoroughly discussed. John's vivid encounter and description
>>>closely matches several of Brunswick's photos.

>>>If Ray still has his copy, I'd like him to debunk the series of
>>>photos on pg. 238-239. I'm not clear how he distinguishes the
>>>frauds from the legitimate so those photos should allow him
>>>demostrate these abilities. All else being equal, I think the
>>>responsibility rests on the persons yelling "fraud" to provide
>>>evidence for their accusations.

>>>How many UpDates List members have a copy of "UFO"? Perhaps we
>>>could talk off-List?

>>How funny! Go back from the photos to which you refer (on pages
>>238 and 239) to page 234 and 235, and look at that ridiculous
>>photo of a silly little UFO model, claimed to be a UFO
>>photographed in "Sta. Ana, California - USA 14 May 1962".

>>Then go to the photos to which you refer on pages 238 and 239,
>>said to have been taken in, "Jacksonville, Florida - USA 24 may,
>>1953".

>>Hey, you really are very, very funny, Ed. Does the house and
>>whole scene look familiar? :) Didn't you notice that, amazingly,
>>the house and even the palm tree frond ("May 14, 1953"), is the
>>very same house and palm frond transferred by time machine and
>>teleportation to "Sta. Ana, California" on May 14, 1962!

>Ray,

>No I didn't notice; thanks for pointing that out. How strange!

>>The only difference is that the old Cadillac has been moved out
>>of the driveway and the photos were taken at different times,
>>with a clear sky and with a cloudy one. That palm frond is still
>>in exactly the same condition and place, nine years and
>>thousands of miles apart. :) LMAO!

>That's very true but what does it mean? Were the photos somehow
>mislabeled during or before publication? Were there two
>sightings over the same house on different days. Or did the
>hoaxer use the same location for two photo sessions, using
>different models, on different days?

The later is obviously true.

>Were they taken by the same camera? The same person?

The book supplies no camera information. Didn't you notice. :)

>I am glad you pointed this out; what a mystery. I certainly
>agree: the four photos were taken at the same location. But that
>does not answer my question. What's wrong with the photos
>themselves?

How about asking yourself, "What's wrong with that book?" :)

I don't intend to waste my time trying to provide an education
(beyond what I've already provided in recent days to this List)
in UFO photo forensics to someone who is a 'true believer' in
anything that strikes his fancy. Some highly esteemed
individuals on this List warned me not to waste my time with you
because of attitude you have shown in the post to which I am now
responding.

>There are hundreds of photos in this collection and
>you said they were all frauds. Brunswick also admitted that some
>of them were frauds but that he felt most were authentic.

Hey, did you ever wonder why you've never seen any of those
ridiculous photos elsewhere? :)

>I'd like to know how you are able to separate the fakes from the
>authentic.

I told you that.

>You claim to have a knack for this.

I said nothing about having a "knack", whatever that might be.
What I have is information, Ed, pure and simple, plus as V-J
Ballester-Olmos of FOTOCAT said, "common sense". You reject my
special experience and knowledge in comparing bona-fide UFO
photos and films with those that simply don't have 'the right
stuff', while also rejecting common sense. With you, Ed, it's a
no-win situation.

It is pretty clear that your asking me to tell you how to
distinguish obviously fake UFO photos from the real is very much
analogous to someone asking an oncologist to teach someone with
no knowledge of cellular pathology to reliably distinguish
cancerous tumors from benign ones by use of a few words and a
ten-minute course!

Since I have much work to do with real, propulsion-diagnostic
movie films and photos, why should I spend a week or two
mentoring you in a discipline you really don't want to accept in
the first place, despite your claims to the contrary. If what I
pointed out about the book in response to your request about
those photos on pages 238-239 is not enough to put you on the
alert that there's something very phony about that book, then
you'll just have to dream on.

By the way, didn't you bother to read the information V-J
Ballester-Olmos provided this List about the background on that
book? If you don't want to believe me, believe him. IMO, he is
perhaps Europe's single most experienced and credible UFO
researcher. Of course, I realize that experience, analytical
ability, and common sense may not mean a heck of a lot to a
dyed-in-the-wool believer, Ed.

>I'd like you to demonstrate your ability and perhaps teach me
>and other List members how to be more observant.

I have already done so, but you refuse to use even common sense.

>>Zhazam! Your arrogant and silly question has demonstrated how
>>naive, unobservant, and sold-out-to-belief you are, Ed.

>I wanted to know why you felt that those photos were fakes.
>You have not answered that question.

I have done so several times. Quite aside from my specialized
knowledge, they show the 'earmarks' of faked photos using a much
less specialized basis of evaluation. If you cannot accept that,
it's your problem, not mine. You know, Ed, there are visual IQs,
just as there are verbal and mathematical IQs. In those
respects, people are not created equal. Good photographers and
visual artists tend to have rather high visual IQs. I don't say
it to put you down, but possibly you just were not born with a
lot of visual IQ. On the other hand, the emotional need to
believe those photos may be the real problem you have, clouding
your perception of how phony those photos look to experienced
photographers. Please examine yourself and consider that
possibility.

>>And with such an appetite as you have for utter crap, perhaps
>>you like that stuff resembling diarrhea clearly splattered all
>>over those photos to make them look old. :)

>I think you need to be a little more specific. What crap, and how
>and why? Do you mean the material that seems to be floating in the
>air?

Get some glasses, Ed - either optically, mentally, or both.
Actually, you know what added-to-the-photo (to make it look old)
crap I'm talking about - so why ask? It's what you said looked
like 'angel's hair' to you! Black angel's hair, at that.

>>Some people have simply the will to believe. Others are even
>>more extreme and have almost a conscious will to make fools of
>>themselves. I leave it to other list members to decide where to
>>place you, Ed.

>I have a very open mind, but I'm also skeptical of people
>claiming special skills and powers. You said that all the photos
>in Brunswick's collection are frauds and that you know this
>because of special skills you've developed over the years. I'd
>like you to demonstrate them, not just talk about them.

>>I have never been a "debunker" (as your wording implies), but
>>since my teens, I have become increasingly a realist.

>OK; "realist" is fine with me.

>>Your ability to discern real UFO photos is about as good as your
>>ability to distinguish between volcanic rock and a UFO crash
>>site!

>You're the person who tried to block discussion of these photos
>by making a blanket statement that they all were crap.

Wrong, again! I wasn't trying to block discussion at all. You
and Roy Hale may discuss your all-day-sucker until you're blue
in your faces. I just wanted to advise my fellow List members to
save their money for a worthwhile UFO book, like, say, Dick
Hall's excellent new book, Alien Invasion Or Human Fantasy? The
1966-67 UFO Wave, just published by the Fund for UFO Research,
144 pages, $29. Hall's new book has on its cover a spectacular
full-color illustration by List member John Velez. It would be
nice if we could see more so such excellent art work on UFO
books, because it is a helluva lot nicer and more hauntingly
realistic than 99.99% of what I see on other UFO book covers.
(Nice job, John.)

>I decided
>to buy the book because I was piqued by Roy's enthusiasm and
>trusted his judgment.I knew you had been very wrong before when
>you identified christobalite as agate, so there was a good
>chance you might be wrong this time.

Next time, buy only on the basis of what a more discerning and
experienced UFO researcher tells you.

I was right about the agate, Ed. There was agate on that
volcanic material, just as it forms from silica leeching from
volcanic materials in diverse situations.

>>Thanks for the opportunity, Ed. :)

>Since you seem willing to accommodate, please explain how these
>photos (UFO pgs. 234-235, 238-239) were hoaxed. You say you can
>look at a photo and know whether it's a fake or not. Teach me
>and the list that skill.

See what I wrote, above, please.

>Is there any way we could get scans of
>these specific photos posted at a site so other list members
>could follow the discussion. I don't have a scanner.

Do you usually advocate violating copyright law in that way, Ed?
The book is copyrighted in the name of the publisher.

>And do you
>have an example of a UFO photo that you know is not faked?

Thousands, via frame prints from the daylight movies and still
photos my project has gotten, of course, but there are others.
One propulsion-diagnostic example may be seen in at least two of
the late J. Allen Hynek's books, including The Edge of Reality,
Hynek and Vallee, 1975, Henry Regnery Company, Chicago, page
122. It shows a UFO taking off from a field of corn stubble near
Fargo, North Dakota, on February 26, 1967, taken by a fellow who
saw it while driving to a Beatles concert and witnessed the
magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) domed disc taking off with a
'textbook' plasma swirl down-flowing from the flange edge, for
MHD lift. Hynek tells us in the caption that the air force
admitted that the object probably involves plasma. What shows
that the plasma is not just a plasma ball but MHD down-flow is
the fact that one can see the spatially-segregated MHD current
streamers that have come from individual rim emitters
(electrodes?), which phenomenon my project has been able to
document (and much more clearly) in daylight films such as that
of October 5, 1985, Corpus Christi, Texas.

Another seemingly authentic photo is the famous daylight photo
of a white UFO taken by aircraft company executive, George
Pfeiffer, as it hovered temporarily over the bank or beach of a
lagoon or river in Brazil. It was published in that large
special book on UFOs published by Look Magazine. I have it
around somewhere, but cannot locate it or I'd provide a more
accurate reference.

I could list a whole bunch more, but that's all I have time to
mention right now.

That's it, Ed. I'm not going to waste any more of my time or
that of this list explaining the fake UFO photos in that book to
you or to Roy Hale.

"As you go through life, make this your goal: Watch the donut,
not the hole." O.K., that's not very original, but it fits the
situation.


Ray Stanford







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                            Re: Dr. Salla - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:49:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 08:40:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. Salla - Hall


>From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul>
>To: asaid.nul, ibroder.nul, ladner.nul
>Cc: sdi.nul
>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 12:07:52 -0400
>Subject: Dr. Salla

>Sirs:

>If it is true, that higher education in America is about
>learning to use and to promote America's freedom of thought,
>speech and action in advancing ideas, then in my view, it
>appears you have failed the test of leadership, embarrassed
>yourself and American University through recent action in
>regards to Dr. Salla.

>In the months and years I've paid attention, I've seen
>academics, teachers, and too many other good people at many
>levels denied their rights to freedom of speech, their careers
>derailed and/or destroyed, simply because they were researching
>in an attempt to resolve questions around the issue of aerial
>phenomena.

>At this moment, I am wondering what lesson students of American
>University will draw from this amazingly audacious, dare I say,
>scandalous(?) action in removing Dr. Salla from the campus? Off
>the top of my head, the lesson appears to be, students (and by
>extension any of us), have the right to America's freedoms only
>so long as we use right thinking; only so long as the subject
>matter in question is approved by those who inhabit the halls of
>White Tower academia; only so long as the "approved" party line
>is followed: No independent thinking for one's self is allowed.

>Unlikely as it is that they would ask, I am wondering how to
>explain this episode coherently to my grandchildren.

>I suppose Dr. Salla should be overjoyed in that he is not going
>to suffer the humiliation of being pilloried! Frankly, I do not
>accept fully the views of Dr. Salla however, this _is_ America,
>where mostly, we are allowed dissenting, if not differing
>opinions; we are allowed freedom of association or
>disassociation; we are allowed to be creative and inventive.
>  So, why not at American University?

>Sincerely, I hope you'll find a way to rescind this rather
>heavy-handed, brutish decision, retain Dr. Salla with American
>University and take advantage of his capabilities and experience
>to advance education in America.

Gary,

Will you please explain to me where you see any violation of
freedom of speech? Salla has been  entirely free to babble
nonsense all over the place, to the point where (if you have it
right that he has been fired) that he pretty well deserved it. A
professor serves at the pleasure of the university, and if he
embarrasses his employers by constantly making nonsensical
utterances, he is likely to be fired. Duh!

He still retains his freedom of speech outside the university
and, knowing his type, I'm sure he will continue to babble away
all over the place in every nutty venue available to him. You
may be confusing "freedom of speech" with "academic freedom,"
which is another matter altogether. I have no idea whether he
has a case there, but I rather doubt it.  At this point I take
it as a victory for rationality.


 - Dick








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                     Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:25:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 08:44:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate - Hatch


>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 14:03:21 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:08:20 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

>>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:07:12 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman/Shostak Debate

><snip>

>One or two said statements caught my little attention in a
>short review of parts in the new 23 page document.

>by Linda Moulton-Howe

>http://dwij.org/pathfinders/linda_moulton_howe/linda_m_h12.htm

>"(3) Underneath the power plant, was discovered a ball-turret,
>approximately ten feet in diameter. This turret was encompassed
>by a series of gears that has a unusual ratio not known by any
>of our engineers.

<LOL>

<snip>

For any two gears that mesh, the gear-ratio is simply the number
of cogs on one gear, divided by the cogs on the other. For a
series of gears, you count cogs on the first and last gears.

Of all attempts to create mystery when there is none, this is
one of the silliest and most amateur. One might as well say "The
number of pages in this document (23) is unknown in literature."

[Cue: Theramin Music]

Please note the origin, and draw your own conclusions.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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                Re: Klass Not Yet In The Cemetary - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 17:33:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 08:48:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Klass Not Yet In The Cemetary - Lehmberg


>From: Phil Klass <PhilKlass.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 14:35:03 EDT
>Subject: Re: UFO Community Bashing

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:31:00 -0500

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 21:04:43 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Community Bashing

><snip>

>>>Is Phil Klass in
>>>the same community as Alfred Lehmberg?

>><snip>

>>Sure, we're in the same community! Just, Klass is in the
>>community '_cemetery_'. Thanks for asking. You live on
>>Convenient Filters Street, don't you? Or is that
>>Ardent Denialist?

>Dear List:

>Regretably,  I  am  not  yet  in  the  cemetary - tho  I  am
>nearing  85  years  of  age. A  year  ago  I  moved  to:

>Merritt Island,  Florida
>535 Nora  Ave.
>Zip  32952.

>Same e-mail  address: philklass.nul


Yes Sir - I was aware that you were still this side of the
'river'... Respectfully, I was speaking metaphorically, alluding
to the divergence of our worldviews... to wit: that,
ufologically, you're a 'dead-man' walking.

The hue and cry in personal e-mail from the reactionary
Pelicanists... regarding their outrage that I would have the
temerity to consign you to an early grave... is touching... but
'telling' and 'descriptive' of their general lack of
constructive imagination.

Live long and prosper, Sir. There's time for a complete
turnaround on your part, yet.


alienview.nul
www.AlienView.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

Photo Album: http://www.alienview.net/AVAlbum.htm
(send picture as attachment to alienview.nul)
Splash page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlienViewGroup/
AVGroup Splashpage  http://www.alienview.net/alienviews.htm
Support AVGroup: http://www.alienview.net/help.html
http://www.alienview.net/N2Ltune.html -- The music in me...







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               Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Zachary

From: Billy Zachary <bez012602.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:57:31 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 09:14:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Zachary


Would someone be kind enough to describe what an average small
meteorite should look like?

I've found several chunks of iron-like material in my backyard,
that looks as though it/they had come through space and got very
hot - to the point of melting.

I have lived here for almost 30 years and I have found these
things for many years right here.

I must have over a hundred lbs. of them by now. Please, someone
get back to me on this.


Thanks,

B. Zachary






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                             Extrasolar Planets

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 22:59:33 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 09:16:04 -0400
Subject: Extrasolar Planets


Most of you will be aware that the first detection of a planet
orbiting a sun (star) outside of our own solar system was made
in 1995 by detecting (in simple terms) the apparent "wobble" in
the position of the host sun (star).

What I was unaware of until now is that this method of looking
for extrasolar planets was discussed at a BUFORA event on
27/3/1964. A lecturer called Stephen Smith from a Cambridge (UK)
UFO group suggested the method.

The following is a quote from an article on page 6 of "Saucer
Forum", V3 Issue 2 (April/May/June 1965) written by the editor
at the time (Jimmy Goddard). The lecture by Stephen Smith was
entitled "Life beyond the Earth".

"He then gave several theories as to how the Solar system
started, after which he said that it was possible to note
whether the nearest stars were likely to have planetary systems,
by watching to see if they wobbled during their rotation."

I had no idea that the theoretical method of detection has been
put forward so long before anyone produced results using it.

For more information about extrasolar planets, a good starting
point would be:

http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/planets/


Regards,

Joe








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              Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 17:32:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 09:18:39 -0400
Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 23:46:41 -0400
>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 18:42:19 -0700
>>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:43:31 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

><snip>

>>You may get a bit of feedback on that one, Ray. The bullet's
>>trajectory as fired on the Earth, neglecting air resistance, is
>>parabolic. So also, as far as I know, the meteor, if air
>>resistance were to be neglected. But I suppose a meteroid that
>>doesn't get captured in the atmosphere could be in an elliptical
>>orbit.

>Wrong! In the first place, air resistance acts on both meteors
>in motion and bullets shot from guns, so why bring in the
>subject of airless passage?! A meteor is not a meteor until it
>enters the upper atmosphere and adjacent air becomes luminous.

>All meteoroids have elliptical paths in the solar system, and
>retardation by atmospheric passage only modifies the properties
>of the ellipse, constantly across time, but does not alter it to
>a parabolic course. ...

We'd better persue this trajectory question a bit further lest
any readers receive bum dope. Fletcher was speaking of meteors,
and bullets fired from a gun, in the presence of Earth's
gravity, and mentioning the approximate trajectory. Air
resistance soon causes either one to deviate from this
trajectory, but only slightly in a rarefied atmosphere. However,
the trajectory it deviates from is a parabola, not an ellipse.
The potential meteor comes under the influence of Earth's
gravity before it comes under the influence of air resistance.

You had previously written:

"Also, Fletcher may be so old, these days, that he has forgotten
this too: The paths of meteors and bullets fired from guns are
elliptical, not parabolic."

One may go to:

http://www.wcsscience.com/bullet/trajectory.html

for example, to see that the trajectory of the bullet when under
the influence of earth's gravity (as per Fletcher's context) is
parabolic. It is not elliptical. They even do the algebra for
you.

A bullet fired in space a couple hundred miles up, say, thus
follows a parabolic trajectory, except for complications due to
variation of Earth's gravity with height, the Earth's curvature,
and finally, air resistance. Give the bullet a large initial
velocity, and it will be indistinguishable from a potential
meteor. Fletcher was right there, upon speaking in simple
terms.

If the bullet's initial velocity is so great that it achieves an
orbit around the Earth or sun, and is not captured by the
Earth's gravity, then its path may become elliptical; but then
it's not a meteor.

Jim D.








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               Re: Klass Not Yet In The Cemetary - Scheldroup

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 19:49:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 09:29:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Klass Not Yet In The Cemetary - Scheldroup


>From: Phil Klass <PhilKlass.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 14:35:03 EDT
>Subject: Re: UFO Community Bashing

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:31:00 -0500
>>Subject: Re: UFO Community Bashing

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 21:04:43 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Community Bashing

><snip>

>>>Is Phil Klass in
>>>the same community as Alfred Lehmberg?

>><snip>
>
>>Sure, we're in the same community! Just, Klass is in the
>>community '_cemetery_'. Thanks for asking. You live on
>>Convenient Filters Street, don't you? Or is that
>>Ardent Denialist?

>Dear List:

>Regretably, I am not yet in the cemetary - tho I am
>nearing 85 years of age. A year ago I moved to:

>Same e-mail address: philklass.nul

You know Mr. Klass, I have a good friend at the young age of 83
enjoys a game of 9 hole golf, that doesn't include the few beers
afterwards, believe me I know it's true <g>. I remember as
younger man I saw a television program starring Bob Hope on the
Larry King show, I thought, "Wow at 83!" think of that! you'd
swear he must be about 60.

When my Uncle came from Norway he lived the life of on skis, but
soon when WW2 started he enlisted while in his middle 30's. He
witnessed for hisself just hogwild the germans were at the time,
at the end of war he participated in liberation of a
concentration camp.

I remember a family reunion when I was a teenager, he must have
been 75 or something, still skiing till he was hit by a bus at
80 years, crossing a Seattle street. Had a few more beers and
walked, more skiing albeit a snowplow but he lived to be 93.
Never married, so it must have been a bad date that night. <g>

Thanks for your work and dedication over the years that gave us
a glimpse into your scientific mind regarding how to think,
regarding analysis of unexplained aerial phenomena.

I think your best work may subtly show positive results.
When I look at younger people today that seem interested in
ufology, do somehow seem more judgemental of what someone says
is so true, but yet are not scared away and speak their
mind. I'm pretty sure that a quite a few have heard of Phil
Klass, while not everyone like myself can logically layout the
rythymic pace on how to look at raw data, even so probably quite
a few of us have learned quite a bit from Klass.


John







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                Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 19:52:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 09:31:03 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 09:09:54 +0100
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 21:36:24 -0500
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>That's not completely true; the authenticity of the Barauna
>>photographs was endorsed by the Brazilian government at the
>>time. The photos were sufficiently clear to reduce some
>>contemporary "skeptics" into alleging they were fakes
>>perpetrated using 21st Century computer technology - back in the
>>1950's.

>What nonsense. This is a complete re-writing of history. The
>Brazilian government did not 'endorse' the photographs, but made
>an ambiguous statement which seemed mainly designed to avoid
>having to discuss the matter any further. The present-day
>sceptics have made no such allegations about 21st century
>computer technology.

>Oh, and by the way, Jerry, when are we going to get this new
>information which is supposed to blow our socks off?

My word, after the shellacking you pelicanists took last time
you dredged this up, I'm amazed that you're still at it.  I guess no
one ever said that pelicanists don't have a death wish, or at least
don't mind provoking hilarity at their own expense.

Anyway, my friend, the answer is simple: presumably well before
you come up with the testimony of a single negative witness.

Of course, as we all know, pigs will likely be flying before
that happens.  At least, should that occur, you'll have the
small pleasure of insisting that the witnesses were seeing only
pelicans.


Jerry Clark






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                         Re: Close-Up Photos - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 03:47:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 09:40:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Hale


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 15:52:36 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

<snip>


>Roy,

>If you don't think I have better things to do than explain how
>each of those hundreds of ludicrous photos were faked (many by
>similar means, and several using the very same little models),
>then..... What a joke.

>If you choose to believe, come on, give us _your_ reasons and
>prove them authentic. I'm not holding my breath. :) The truth
>is, you are just a dreamer.

Mr Stanford,

So finally you resort to name calling and insults, and all I
asked you to do was to show this list your research into the
photos of the Brusnwick UFO book. I merely submitted the book
for peer review, and have since been subjected to a tirade of
"Fake", from you. You have been asked to prove they are
fake -  you resort to name calling.

I leave this List to decide who has been the genuine person -
was seeking answers to these pictures.

I am sorry it has been virtually impossible to gain any information
from you regarding your "Fake" stance on this book.

>I have real UFO movies and photos to work with, so why should I
>waste weeks explaining hundreds of fake UFO photos that should
>be obvious to a person with even a modicum of photographic
>knowledge and a visual IQ of anything over 60. My work is not in
>instructing visual morons in how to see, but in obtaining and
>analyzing propulsion-diagnostic UFO hard data. If UFO
>researchers spend all their time on the obvious fake, there is
>no time for trying to understand the real.

And then Mr Stanford insults one who dared asked him to prove
his opinions on UFO photos he calls "Fake".

>You've latched onto that idiotic book of fake photos like a
>fundamentalist Christian does to the Bible as the "revealed word
>of God", as they say.

I would expect more from a person who claims to have been in
this game for fifty years.

>Get a life in realistic Ufology.

If what you demonstrate is "realistic ufology", then I want no
part of it.

>And let me make it perfectly clear that if you think I jump to
>the demands of a willing-to-be-fooled person like you, think
>again!

I am offended by a senior member of the UFO community displaying
verbal abuse to a person who has asked a simple question:

Show this List your research into this book and its photos.....


Regards,

Roy






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               CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 23:27:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 09:41:29 -0400
Subject: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial


http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/index.html

Interesting look at how the mainstream presents it's look into
ET research.

I got word several months ago pals of mine in the press were
given a rush-rush push to cover topics like this.

Guess it's a ratings thingie. Also a good betting pool is
probably in the running.

Expect lots of ET/UFO stories in the next year ;)


Best,

Greg






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                   New *U* UFO Database Map Of Scandanavia

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 22:09:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:07:14 -0400
Subject: New *U* UFO Database Map Of Scandanavia


Hello all:


I have a new 3-color map up for the Scandinavia/Finland area.
Colors indicate 3 arbitrary periods: antiquity to 1959, 1960
through 1979, and 1980 to the present.

http://www.larryhatch.net/SCAND.html

No database can pretend to have all the good cases, so I link
and refer to the major organizations there with pages in
English.

What stands out is the rather even distribution of sightings
well North, even beyond the Arctic Circle. I don't have a ready
explanation for this, maybe some of you can suggest reasons.

This is in sharp contrast with say Canada, where sightings are
concentrated in the southern latitudes, much like the
population.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






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                 Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 00:30:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:11:34 -0400
Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - King


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:54:23 -0700
>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:51:06 -0400
>>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

<snip>

>You're the person who tried to block discussion of these photos
>by making a blanket statement that they all were crap. I decided
>to buy the book because I was piqued by Roy's enthusiasm and
>trusted his judgment.I knew you had been very wrong before when
>you identified christobalite as agate, so there was a good
>chance you might be wrong this time.

>>Thanks for the opportunity, Ed. :)

>Since you seem willing to accommodate, please explain how these
>photos (UFO pgs. 234-235, 238-239) were hoaxed.  You say you can
>look at a photo and know whether it's a fake or not. Teach me
>and the list that skill. Is there any way we could get scans of
>these specific photos posted at a site so other list members
>could follow the discussion. I don't have a scanner. And do you
>have an example of a UFO photo that you know is not faked?


Ed,

As you know, I have an excellent optical scanner, and would be
happy to offer my services gratis in scanning the photos in
question. I can host them, and provide thumbnails and full-sized
versions. I�d scan at 600 dpi and include any captions from the
book.

I can watermark them with any needed copyright info. I feel that
this would be covered under Fair Use, however...DMCA
notwithstanding. ;)

I will gladly return the book...if you send me your copy...as
received.

I can commit to turning them around in 72 hours, and your book
returned within days of that.

If this discussion continues off-list, I'd be very interested in
seeing the results of analyses by various members of the list.
(Waste of time or not, whichever the case may be)

I for one have the time and the inclination to take a close look
at these images, and I would gladly share my list of supported
alternative explanations...and my list of unexplaineds...with
the group.

Perhaps there is a learning exercise of value here. Perhaps for
both sides of the debate. :)


Kyle







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              Re: HBCC UFO Research Regular Radio Appearances -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 07:02:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:13:47 -0400
Subject: Re: HBCC UFO Research Regular Radio Appearances -


>From: Brian VIke - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 13:44:34 -0700
>Subject: HBCC UFO Research Regular Radio Appearances

>Radio Shows - HBCC UFO Research

>I receive a fair bit of email from folks wanting to
>know when and where they can catch the UFO reports I give on
>air. Since a new one was just added to the list I thought I
>would revise the list of regular spots I do.

>There are lots of other radio shows I do, but these below are
>the regular spots. You can go to my site at:

>http://www.hbccufo.com/index.php

>and at the top of the page there is the list of the shows and
>links to listen in. Also listed there will be other shows as
>they occur.

<snip>

Wow dude... I think it's a credit to the value of service that
you perform, and the rational manner in which you perform it
that you don't suffer a Fred Durst-like over-saturation and
we're not sick to freakin' death of Brian Vike. I know I'm
not... rock on!


alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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                    UFO photographed With A Celular Phone

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:20:04 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:19:07 -0400
Subject: UFO photographed With A Celular Phone


Possible UFO photographed with a celular phone

On August 3rd three men were on Anhanguera Highway, Sao Paulo
State, when they saw something unusual over a field. They
stopped the car and 2 of the men jumped over the fence to get a
little closer. One of them had a modern cell phone with him and
took a picture of a strange, cylinder object a few meters above
the ground.

Under the object, which remained hoovering for 30 minutes and
emmiting a sound that seemed like "several engines working
together", some dust could be see been lifting into the air.

The witnesses do not want to be identified.

On August 04 I took part in a TV program in Brazil to comment on
the photo - it is being analysed as I write.

If confirmed genuine, it could be one of the first ever images of a UFO
taken by a cell-phone and confirmed.

The image is at:

http://www.ufo.com.br/index.php?arquivo=notComp.php&id=457


A. J. Gevaerd






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                         Re: ETH Modeling - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:09:03 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:23:36 -0400
Subject: Re: ETH Modeling - Friedman


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 16:44:39 EDT
>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:03:49 -0500
>>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

<snip>

Brad, I surely wish you would define quantitative testable ETH
Model. Sounds like asking a native in the jungle who claims to
have observed a shiny object flying in the sky, to hypothesize
where it is from, where it is going, how many beings, if any,
are on board,what they look like, the objectives of the flight,
and to describe the  propulsion system, as well as the reasons
for the passengers to be making the trip... and also when if
ever the next flight will occur. I realize that much energy was
spent years ago to determine how many angels would fit on the
head of a pin. But is that a useful pursuit? Not for me.

Also, on several occasions you have talked about people wanting
to ignoreor dismiss what I say because I am a "nuts and bolts"
guy. Can you be quantitative about this, please? How many people
of the hundreds of thousands who have heard me speak or the
millions who have seen me on TV or heard me on the radio have
expressed this view?How big is your sample size? Is it 1%, 10%,
50%? Are they members of the general public (which after all is
my major target) or are they ufologists?

  In my MUFON 1999 paper "Star Travel? YES!" I review real
systems such as fission and fusion rockets which we know to be
feasible despite our very short technological history , and then
point out that technological progress comes from doing things
differently in an unpredictable way, so I expect alien visitors
to be using technology about which we know nothing. The vacuum
tube does not lead directly to the microintegrated circuit.  It
is certainly true that I generally avoid dealing with 4th
dimensional space time warping, or 11 dimensional string theory,
or even anti-Gravity... I don't know enough about any of these
far out theoretical schemes so beloved of the theoretical
astrophysicists, but I have seen no quantitative testable
modelling of them either.

I once commented about Allen Hynek, that one can't blame a good
washing machine for being a poor dryer. He certainly wasn't a
Jim McDonald - he was an Allen Hynek.


Stan Friedman






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                  Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part I - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:22:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:39:36 -0400
Subject: Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part I - Kaeser


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 17:10:19 -0400
>Subject: Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part I

>>From: Michael Brownlee <michael.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 07:57:55 -0700
>>Subject: The MUFON Conundrum - Part I

><snip>

>>According to Schuessler, in a 35-year attempt to prove that UFOs
>>are real, technological and not ours, MUFON has amassed such a
>>large collection of data (sixteen file cabinets full of UFO
>>reports) that virtually no one is able to adequately mine this
>>extensive database in order to connect the dots and draw
>>definitive conclusions.

>With all the scholars running MUFON, I am flabbergasted that
>they don't seem to 'get it' when it comes to getting a
>collection of data to 'talk', connect the dots, and make
>arriving at conclusions rather easy.

>The process is straightforward, and I've mentioned it on this
>List before.

<snip>

Eleanor,

Good ideas, but even the limited work you outline is massive to
the small group of volunteers that actually run the three
primary UFO organizations in the US. I would suspect that the
total number of actual workers that support these three groups
would total less than 30 people, and all but one or two are
volunteers with personal lives and other interests.

My take on the problem facing MUFON (from conversations and not
actual involvement) is that the data they now have in file
cabinets had (for years) been stored in boxes. The fact that
people are now looking at the hundreds of thousands of pages is
because of a push to try and create a database, which started at
about the time that John Schuessler became the International
Director in 2000. Let's keep in mind that every piece of data
put into storage through the years was most likely read by MUFON
staff at the time and it's highly unlikely that there are any
"smoking guns" in storage at MUFON.

One thing we have to consider is the potential value of this
catagorized information, and whether the final product justifies
the resources utilized. Historical information is of interest to
ufologists and a few others, but has little value as far as
providing proof. These are, for the most part, older cases.
 Some scrap of information could lead to Government documents of
more interest, but scientists and the media aren't going to give
much attention to an old case. If the major UFO groups are
living "hand to mouth", which I believe is the case, then
decisions have to made as to how many resources can be dedicated
to a project with limited potential for impact.

The amount of data collected by the varous UFO groups and
researchers over the past 50 years is amazing, and for the most
part unavailable to the general public. It is stored in
hundreds of individual collections, and I believe that the MUFON
collection is (indeed) one of the largest. There has been
little or no interest in the establishment of a central
repository for UFO data, so that it can be saved and organized
for future researchers, and some have held their collections for
ransom, asking tens of thousands of dollars. This issue has
also been discussed on this list and the Sign Historical Group
was formed. But, the funds needed to centralize and organize
the data is beyond the anyone's means at this point.

Just a couple of thoughts,

Steve.







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                           Re: Dr. Salla - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:26:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:41:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. Salla - Kaeser


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:49:16 +0000
>Subject: Re: Dr. Salla

>>From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul>
>>To: asaid.nul, ibroder.nul, ladner.nul
>>Cc: sdi.nul
>>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 12:07:52 -0400
>>Subject: Dr. Salla

>>Sirs:

>>If it is true, that higher education in America is about
>>learning to use and to promote America's freedom of thought,
>>speech and action in advancing ideas, then in my view, it
>>appears you have failed the test of leadership, embarrassed
>>yourself and American University through recent action in
>>regards to Dr. Salla.

<snip>

>He still retains his freedom of speech outside the university
>and, knowing his type, I'm sure he will continue to babble away
>all over the place in every nutty venue available to him. You
>may be confusing "freedom of speech" with "academic freedom,"
>which is another matter altogether. I have no idea whether he
>has a case there, but I rather doubt it.At this point I take
>it as a victory for rationality.

Can anyone find an article on his dismissal, if that's the case.
I can't seem to find any reference to it on the Internet.


Steve







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                Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:31:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:19:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Shell


>From: Billy Zachary <bez012602.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:57:31 EDT
>Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites

>Would someone be kind enough to describe what an average small
>meteorite should look like?

They can look like a lot of different things, but generally they
show some sign of being heated and melted as they were traveling
at high speed.Iron meteorites can be black (like the Hajar ul
Aswad, below) or rust-colored. Rocky meteorites can be blackish
brown. Cone shapes, egg shapes, wave shapes, burned. Tektites
are often little blobs of green glass.

>I've found several chunks of iron-like material in my backyard,
>that looks as though it/they had come through space and got very
>hot - to the point of melting.

Sometimes industrial slag can look like a meteorite, but they
usually lack that "well-traveled" shape. Is there a good
meteorite site with photos?

http://geology.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=geology&zu=http%3A%2
F%2Fwww.al-islam.org%2Fgallery%2Fphotos%2Fhajraswd.gif






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                          Re: ETH Modeling - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:47:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:23:47 -0400
Subject: Re: ETH Modeling - Clark


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 16:44:39 EDT
>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:03:49 -0500
>>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

<snip>

>The whole point of an "encyclopedia" is to provide a thorough
>overview of a subject encompassing diverse literature so that
>the knowledge is conveniently at hand. I am not going to the
>time, trouble and expense (which I cannot afford) of obtaining a
>very old JUFOS issue for an article by Swords that Swords
>himself does not indicate in his much later 1998 Encyclopedia
>article has anything about quantitative testable ETH models in
>it. I assume from Swords' 1998 treatment in your Encyclopedia
>that the earlier JUFOS piece was merely a more detailed survey
>of ETH writings.

Those of you interested in Michael D. Swords's JUFOS paper,
a major (maybe _the_ major) scientific look at the ETH in the UFO
literature, should contact

http://www.cufos.org/pubs3.html

or write CUFOS at:

2457 West Peterson Avenue,
Chicago, Illinois
60659

The full citation is Swords, "Science and the Extraterrestrial
Hypothesis in Ufology." Journal of UFO Studies 1 (1989): 67-102.

A fascinating follow-up piece is:

"Astronomers, the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis, and the United
States Air Force at the Beginning of the Modern UFO Phenomenon."
JUFOS 4 (1992): 79-129.

In my judgment these are essential reading to any serious
student of the UFO phenomenon.


Jerry Clark







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                     Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:47:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:26:44 -0400
Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 23:27:41 EDT
>Subject: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

>http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/index.html

>Interesting look at how the mainstream presents it's look into
>ET research.

>I got word several months ago pals of mine in the press were
>given a rush-rush push to cover topics like this.

>Guess it's a ratings thingie. Also a good betting pool is
>probably in the running.

>Expect lots of ET/UFO stories in the next year ;)

Hey, maybe this is G.W. Bush's "October Surprise.""We've
contacted aliens from another planet, but they'll only give us
the cure to all diseases if I'm re-elected."






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                     Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:10:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:29:20 -0400
Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 23:27:41 EDT
>Subject: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

>http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/index.html

>Interesting look at how the mainstream presents it's look into
>ET research.

>I got word several months ago pals of mine in the press were
>given a rush-rush push to cover topics like this.

>Guess it's a ratings thingie. Also a good betting pool is
>probably in the running.

>Expect lots of ET/UFO stories in the next year ;)

We're being prepared for something (...Mars microbes?), and all
this is just grease to make them look like they are doing a
journalist's job, which, decidedly, they are not. A pox on the
lot of them. We wouldn't find out a damn thing at all but that
we are our own media, support our own alternative media, and
work hard to expand same. We owe them nothing but our disgusted
and impatient contempt...

The one shining star in the program was the suggestion by the
SETI diva (I can't recall her name) in answer to Fermi's paradox
(...roughly "...if they existed, they'd be here...If they were
here we'd know it... "), that maybe they _were_ here, we just
didn't _know_ it...

Fermi was right. They are 'here', and we do 'know' it. Anything
else just keeps us tethered to the nineteenth century, to our
cultural shame, and to our repeated complacent mistakes.


alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.






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                Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:46:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:31:02 -0400
Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Miller


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 17:31:36 -0400
>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:54:23 -0700
>>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:51:06 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:03:11 -0700
>>>>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>><snip>

>I don't intend to waste my time trying to provide an education
>(beyond what I've already provided in recent days to this List)
>in UFO photo forensics to someone who is a 'true believer' in
>anything that strikes his fancy.

<snip>

>On the other hand, the emotional need to believe those photos
>may be the real problem you have, clouding  your perception
>of how phony those photos look to experienced  photographers.
>Please examine yourself and consider that  possibility.

<snip>

>>>Some people have simply the will to believe. Others are even
>>>more extreme and have almost a conscious will to make fools of
>>>themselves. I leave it to other list members to decide where to
>>>place you, Ed.

It's war! Yea verily (sorry Alfred) this unwarranted and above
all, blasphemous attack on one of our brothers cannot be
tolerated. A call to arms bretheren.

Go to http://www.uforeview.net/

and then press the second button from the bottom, on the left -
"For those who like presing buttons". First item.

Stuart Miller







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             Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:57:51 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:15:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees


>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:17:42 +1000
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 19:02:34 +1000
>>Subject: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>><snip>

>>I remember when Sheryl made some comment to me a while ago she
>>thought an abduction scenario could be attributed to thyroid
>>problems - as the symptoms were similar?

>><snip>

>Let's get it right. I did not make this comment to Diane. I
>spoke about this at the national UFO conference in Australia in
>2003.

Sorry for the lateness of my reply, publication deadlines. Folks
this is a long one so go put the kettle on and grab a cup of
coffee... or simply press delete. :>)

I hate starting an email on the defensive; Let's get it right.
Hmmm! Wow snappy Sheryl. <g> There's one thing we can agree
on... you did say something about Thyroid disfunction right?

With your lecture, I thought you spoke to an audience and when
one is speaking to an audience then one in the audience can
perceive they are being spoken too, right?.

Yes I was member of the audience, I heard what you had to say
and I question the validity of the information you presented and
if a researcher presents his or her research to an audience then
said researcher should be prepared to validate the evidence if
asked?

>What I said was that I had come across some (please remember
>I said "some") people reporting abductions as also having a
>dysfunctional thyroid condition. I was particularly interested
>in this as I have this health condition myself and have delved
>quite deeply into the list of symptoms and manifestation of the
>condition.

Sheryl you failed to mention some symptoms relating to Thyroid
Disfunction.

In later signs: increased mental instability, puffiness in the
face and extremities; thin, dry hair; loss of libido; loss of
appetite; hand tremors; and abdominal bloating.

For the record ,so I don't getchewed off by some, <g> it is
health professionals who studied Endocrine Disfunction, not I,
who made the above assessment and statement.

See source links provided for more information with regards
to Endocrine disfunction and symptoms:

http://www.pdrhealth.com

Sheryl you say you studied some? how many 2 - 6?

What statistical study have you done which helped you
substantiate your observation/claim which lead you to base your
lecture on thyroid disfunction = artistic ability and UFO close
encounter similarities?

How many people did this Australian health professional study,
and how many did he ask if they had been abducted by aliens? Or
had a close encounter with a UFO, for him/her to assume thyroid
sufferers suffered the same symptoms as close encounter
experiencers?

Sheryl you stated thyroid disfunction mimicks symptoms of UFO
close encounter symptoms? After doing some research of my own,
one could say any form of Human Glandular Disorders could mimick
almost anything.....

>When I searched for what others had found I discovered I was
>not alone in this observation. Some UFO researchers had found
>endocrine abnormalities as being quite common especially
>dysfunctional thyroid conditions in those reporting close
>encounter experiences.

Who might these researchers be? I would be interested in
contacting them and I'm sure other researchers would like to
discuss findings such as these.

Glandular Disorders might, I add, include the pituitary, thyroid,
parathyroid, adrenals, testes, ovaries, pineal, thymus glands,
and islet cells of the pancreas.

I would like to throw this subject open to researchers like Budd
Hopkins, David Jacobs, Roger Leir, Whitley Striber, Keith
Basterfield, Bill Chalker, Richard Hall and others, who may like
to comment on their findings.

I would also like to know if any researchers have come across
any abductees/contactees/close encounter experiencers, who have
shown any signs of Human Glandular Disorders and if so, did they
document their findings? If so do they feel it is possible that
this type of illnesses might be the antidote which could prove
to mimick the symptoms of an alleged UFO close encounter?

No disrespect intended, but has anyone checked if any of the
best known abductees such as Betty & Barney Hill, Travis Walton,
Kelly Cahill or others may have suffered from some form of Human
Glandular Disorder, either before or after their experience? If
so, have their disorders been documented and to what extent do
they suffer - if at all?

Sheryl, I was unable find anything which indicated,
scientifically, that Thyroid sufferers are prone to 'psychic
attacks' as part of the symptoms of thyroid disfunction? I have
searched high and low for some form of scientific evidence to
prove your claim is correct, but I have been unable to find
anything - maybe I'm looking in the wrong place?

I searched 236 documents at:

http://www.endocrineweb.com

Your Search - "psychic attacks" did not match any files on this
site.

How thyroid problems can affect your health:

http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/health-public-affairs/mhcs/publications/5425.html

>Surprisingly, the most common list of symptoms for thyroid
>dysfunction closely mimick many of those reported by close
>encounter experiencers and include menstrual problems, with
>interruption to cycles or cessation of them; lowered/raised
>metabolism; sensitivity to noise, sunlight and odours; night
>blindness; energy bursts or lack of energy, abnormal sleep
>patterns and insomnia.

Sheryl, please read the symptoms listed below. You'll see how
one could step into a mine field of problems when trying to
determine if a person is suffering any form of Human Glandular
Disorder. Let alone cross-referencing these symptoms with
symptoms of UFO close encounters.

I mean Menopause, Eating disorders, Alcoholism, Mental Disorders
and many others which could also be seen to mimick UFO close
encounter symptoms. The list is endless.....

I look forward to some feed back. I have my hard hat on and
await the incoming <g>.


Thyroid Disorders
http://www.pdrhealth.com

Hypothyroidism occurs more frequently in women than in men and
is diagnosed most often between the ages of 40 and 50.
Hypothyroidism, essentially an underproduction of thyroid
hormone, can be caused by an insufficiency of the hypothalamus,
the pituitary, or the thyroid gland itself.

In the early symptoms of hypothyroidism tend to be vague?

Early Symptoms of thyroid disfunction:

Short-term memory loss, fatigue, lethargy unexplained weight
gain, intolerance to cold, poor wound healing, and constipation.

Later signs increased mental instability puffiness in the face
and extremities; thin, dry hair; loss of libido; loss of
appetite; hand tremors; and abdominal bloating. Hyperthyroidism
is caused by overproduction of thyroid hormone.

Hypoparathyroidism results from diseased, injured, or
congenitally defective parathyroid glands. Injury to the glands
most often occurs during surgery involving nearby tissue.
Hypoparathyroidism may also be caused by the prolonged, severe
magnesium deficiency associated with alcoholism.

Hypoparathyroidism leads to low blood concentrations of calcium,
which may cause neuromuscular excitability, including spasms and
twitching of the face, hands, and feet; abdominal pain; hair
loss; dry skin; and cataracts.


Pituitary Disorders

Hypopituitarism is characterized by growth retardation in
children, sexual immaturity, and metabolic dysfunction.
Hypopituitarism results from a deficiency of the hormones
secreted by the anterior pituitary gland. Panhypopituitarism
involves a partial or total failure of all this gland's
hormones.

Symptoms usually develop gradually and may include impotence,
the absence of menstrual periods, infertility, decreased sexual
drive, and diabetes insipidus (a state of high urinary output
unrelated to the more common diabetes mellitus). Other symptoms
are hypothyroidism and adrenal insufficiency (Addison's
disease).

Hyperpituitarism results in the extreme overgrowth of the
skeleton and is often caused by a tumor. When hyperpituitarism
occurs before puberty, the entire body becomes abnormally large.

This condition is called gigantism. Post-pubertal
hyperpituitarism is called acromegaly and produces bone
thickening; this rare condition usually strikes between the ages
of 30 and 50.

Other symptoms of hyperpituitarism include oily skin, severe
headaches, blurred vision, profuse sweating, a loss of
peripheral vision, nervous system impairment, and a rapid
metabolism. The head and facial features become enlarged and
distorted in hyperpituitarism, and the individual may show
symptoms of irritability, hostility, and other psychological
disturbances.

Another symptom of thyroid disfunction is Graves' disease, the
most common form of hyperthyroidism.

Graves Disease Symptoms:

Enlarged thyroid, heat sensitivity, nervousness, difficulty in
concentrating, prematurely gray hair, weight loss, increased
appetite, diarrhea, palpitations, tremors, sweating, and, in
some cases, bulging eyes. Graves' disease is thought to result
from an immune-system malfunction that overstimulates the
thyroid. The disease may not become apparent until it is
triggered by trauma or by a benign tumor of the thyroid gland.

More links to study this problem:

http://www.thyroid-fed.org/intro/patients.html


Regards,

Diane Harrison

National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn.nul
E-mail: ufologist.nul
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
         1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>






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                       Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:19:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:24:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 03:47:34 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 15:52:36 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

><snip>

>>If you don't think I have better things to do than explain how
>>each of those hundreds of ludicrous photos were faked (many by
>>similar means, and several using the very same little models),
>>then..... What a joke.

>>If you choose to believe, come on, give us _your_ reasons and
>>prove them authentic. I'm not holding my breath. :) The truth
>>is, you are just a dreamer.

>So finally you resort to name calling and insults, and all I
>asked you to do was to show this list your research into the
>photos of the Brusnwick UFO book. I merely submitted the book
>for peer review, and have since been subjected to a tirade of
>"Fake", from you. You have been asked to prove they are
>fake - you resort to name calling.

>I leave this List to decide who has been the genuine person -
>was seeking answers to these pictures.

People on this List are probably not as gullible as you seem to
surmise. And, hey, I haven't seen any response by you to the
facts that Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos (Director of FOTOCAT)
reported about that book and its contents, as 100% fake. You
cannot deal with those facts, can you, Roy? :)

>I am sorry it has been virtually impossible to gain any information
>from you regarding your "Fake" stance on this book.

You are a pretender. I have given clear-cut evidence of the
book's phony nature in my response to Ed Gehrman's query, and
keep in mind that he chose the photos to which he requested
comment, I did not. If what I pointed out to Ed doesn't give you
great caution in believing the book to be highly suspicions,
then you do not deserve to call yourself a UFO researcher. I
think you are more likely just a gee-whiz UFO report collector.
Also, from the beginning, I carefully explained my insights
based on knowledge of how the real UFOs present in photos and
movies, and I am not accountable for your lack of such knowledge
as would enable you to know every photo in the book is fake.

Since it is you who promoted attention to that phony book from
the start, I, again, challenge you to tell this list why you
believe the photos might be authentic. I suspect your reason to
be emotional predisposition to believe. How could there be
anything more? Not a single photographer is named, no camera or
film data are provided. Most of the photos are evidently faked
using similar techniques, many using the same type model. An
experienced person can walk into a building where there are
mouse colonies living in the walls or under floorboards and,
without ever seeing a single mouse, tell you that they are
there. How? By smelling the distinctive odor of mouse urine.

Wake up, Roy, and smell the mouse urine, unless that's a clothes
pin on your nose as well as blinders on your eyes. :)


Ray Stanford







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                Re: A Paper: The Year 1954 In Photos - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:19:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:25:28 -0400
Subject: Re: A Paper: The Year 1954 In Photos - Groff


>From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 23:27:46 +0200 (CEST)
>Subject: A Paper: The Year 1954 In Photos


>Dear colleagues:

>I am happy to inform that a paper titled "The Year 1954 in
>Photos" can be read and downloaded at the following URL - in
>English:

>http://www.anomalia.org/fotocat1954.pdf

>It is the first report produced from FOTOCAT, the Spanish
>Anomaly Foundation=B4s worldwide photographic catalog (4,800
>entries to-date), whose regular news reports are at:

>http://www.anomalia.org/fotocat1.htm

>I hope it can be an item of interest to you. As the author, I
>will be delighted to hear your comments, additions or
>corrections to the largest census of UFO photographic cases
>recorded for the wave year of 1954.
Hi V-J,

Is there an ac

cessible database of these photographs on the Anomolia.org
website?


Thanks,

Terry







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                         Woman Builds UFO Attractor

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:23:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:26:24 -0400
Subject: Woman Builds UFO Attractor


Source: ABC Local news (channel 7)

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/strange/080904_ap_sn_UFO.html


Woman builds UFO attractor

August 9, 2004 (DULUTH, Minn.) - Julie "Jitterbug" Pearce wants
to make a long-distance call -- very long distance. Pearce has
built what she calls a UFO Attractor.

The gizmo has colored strobe lights, low-powered lasers and a
radio transmitter. She hopes she can grab the attention of any
passing saucers and persuade ET to land for a chat.

Pearce spent a recent weekend with friends camping in the
Minnesota woods with the contraption. She didn't have any success
attracting UFO's, but she says she and her friends had a good
time sitting around the campfire.







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                            Re: Dr. Salla - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 14:03:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:28:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. Salla - King


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:26:16 -0400
>Subject: Re: Dr. Salla

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:49:16 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Dr. Salla

<snip>

>Can anyone find an article on his dismissal, if that's the case.
>I can't seem to find any reference to it on the Internet.

Steve,

Found this...

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/2/prweb104795.htm


Regards,

Kyle






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              Re: UFO photographed With A Celular Phone - Shell

From: Tim Shell <shell.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 14:08:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:30:29 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO photographed With A Celular Phone - Shell


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul >
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:20:04 -0300
>Subject: UFO photographed With A Celular Phone

>Possible UFO photographed with a celular phone

>On August 3rd three men were on Anhanguera Highway, Sao Paulo
>State, when they saw something unusual over a field. They
>stopped the car and 2 of the men jumped over the fence to get a
>little closer. One of them had a modern cell phone with him and
>took a picture of a strange, cylinder object a few meters above
>the ground.

Because of the reflection, I have to assume the photographer
stayed in the car.

>Under the object, which remained hoovering for 30 minutes and
>emmiting a sound that seemed like "several engines working
>together", some dust could be see been lifting into the air.

I don't know. It looks very mirage-like to me, but it would with
my debunking hat on. It also looks like a small rain cloud,
although the rest of the photo doesn't suggest such a thing
could develop there. Interesting, though.

>If confirmed genuine, it could be one of the first ever images
>of a UFO taken by a cell-phone and confirmed.

What about that dude in Ireland a month or so ago? Did I imagine
that?






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                            Re: Dr. Salla - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 14:11:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:31:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. Salla - King


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:26:16 -0400
>Subject: Re: Dr. Salla

<snip>

>Can anyone find an article on his dismissal, if that's the case.
>I can't seem to find any reference to it on the Internet.

Steve, and list,

There is another link I found:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2003/3/prweb59705.htm

The cited article doesn�t appear to be on his web site any longer...
although interestingly it is an American University address, and is
still working as of this morning.

I would like to see the cited article. If anyone is familiar with it,
please let me know.


Kyle






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                            Re: Dr. Salla - Brock

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:42:39 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:34:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. Salla - Brock


>From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul>
>To: asaid.nul, ibroder.nul,
> ladner.nul
>Cc: sdi.nul
>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 12:07:52 -0400
>Subject: Dr. Salla

>Sirs:

>If it is true, that higher education in America is about
>learning to use and to promote America's freedom of thought,
>speech and action in advancing ideas, then in my view, it
>appears you have failed the test of leadership, embarrassed
>yourself and American University through recent action in
>regards to Dr. Salla.

>In the months and years I've paid attention, I've seen
>academics, teachers, and too many other good people at many
>levels denied their rights to freedom of speech, their
>careers derailed and/or destroyed, simply because they were
>researching in an attempt to resolve questions around the
>issue of aerial phenomena.

Gary,

"researching, in an attempt to resolve questions around the
issue of aerial phenomena...? There's the understatement of the
new century.

Michael Salla is not simply "...researching, in an attempt to
resolve the questions around the issue of aerial phenomena..."
This innocuous statement conjures the image of a level-headed
scientist endeavoring to create ball lightning in a sealed glass
chamber, or making a foray to a wetland to try to photgraph
will-o'-the wisp. Taking a small excerpt from the abstract of
his  "paper," "A Report on the Motivations and Activities of
Extraterrestrial Races -- A Typology of the most Significant
Extraterrestrial Races Interacting with Humanity," reveals that
Dr. Salla is a species quite different from the above
bespectacled researcher in a white lab coat:

"There are an extensive number of extraterrestrial races known
to be currently interacting with Earth and the human population.
In a 1998 interview, Clifford Stone, a retired US army Sergeant
who served in the US Army for 22 years and participated in
covert operations to retrieve crashed extraterrestrial ships and
extraterrestrial biological entities (EBE=92s), revealed there
were a total of 57 extraterrestrial races known to the US
military. From this pool of extraterrestrial races, a number are
more active than others, and can be claimed to have the most
significance for human evolution and sovereignty..."

And how did he come by this astounding, mind-blowing, earth-
shattering, shake-the-foundations-of-sanity conclusion? An
article from the Washington Post discloses his source:

"For much of the '90s, Salla studied conflict resolution and
tried unsuccessfully to apply that knowledge to prevent war in
East Timor and the Balkans, he says. Frustrated, he began
looking for an extraterrestrial connection to human misery and,
he says, he found evidence of ET visitations -- including the
Ike encounter -- on the Internet."

"'There's a lot of stuff on the Internet,' he says, 'and I just
went around and pieced it together.'"

In a move that suggests an even more profound lack of good
judgement on his part, the article from the Washington Post is
reproduced at Salla's own website:

http://exopolitics.org/Wash-Post-Ike%20and%20ETs.htm

(_underscores_eliminate_percentiles,_Dr._Salla)

This particular passage from the above Washington Post article
seizes my attention, particularly:

"For much of the '90s, Salla studied conflict resolution and
tried unsuccessfully to apply that knowledge to prevent war in
East Timor and the Balkans, he says. Frustrated, he began
looking for an extraterrestrial connection to human misery and,
he says, he found evidence of ET visitations..."

I begin to realize that the comments I included in my weblog, on
 Saturday, July 31, 2004, make even more sense when viewed in
the light of this article from the Washington Post:

"Considering all the factors I have discussed here, I suggest
that "exopolitics," be it the philosophy of Salla or Webre, is
essentially a highly secularized version of a contactee cult.
Among the differences from the fifties cults are: generalization
of the alien leader(s) of the fifties into either a Universal
Society (Webre) or 57 diferent races of aliens which interact
with the black government (Salla). Ergo, "Orthon"* is now the
"Universe Society." The blatantly religious elements (e.g., Van
Tassel singing hymns with his followers, etc.) have also been
dropped, but the concept of the "world in quarantine," needing
to be "saved" by the benevolent Universe Society remains.
Similarly, in Salla's version, there are certain races which are
capable of "saving" us, although there are certain other ones
that are less benevolent."

"It makes even more sense when we consider that Salla's
professional career in teaching was concerned with the political
aspects/problems involved in the implementation of world peace."

My complete article on the "exopolitics" of Webre/Salla, can be
read at:

http://aamb.blogspot.com/2004_07_25_aamb_archive.html

The Washington Post article also discloses the following, which
fits right with the conclusions of my article linked above:

"Salla...figures the dentist trip is just a cover story. He
believes Ike went to Edwards Air Force Base, where he met with
two ETs with white hair, pale blue eyes and colorless lips."

"These aliens -- nicknamed "Nordics" in UFO circles because they
resemble Scandinavian humans -- traveled to Edwards from another
solar system in a flying saucer and, Salla says, they spoke to
Eisenhower."

"'There was telepathic communication,' says Salla, 45, as he
sits in his suburban Falls Church living room. 'It's as though
you're hearing a person but they're not speaking.'"

The "Nordics" offered to share their superior technology and
their spiritual wisdom with Ike if he would agree to eliminate
America's nuclear weapons.

"They were afraid we might blow up some of our nuclear
technology," Salla says, "and apparently that does something to
time and space and it impacts on extraterrestrial races on other
planets."

"Ike declined the ETs' offer, Salla says, because he did not
want to give up the nukes."

Eisenhower... blonde Nordics... Orthon..... In the light of
everything I have said about the exopolitics of Webre and Salla,
I rest my case. "Exopolitics" is just another contactee cult in
shabby academic clothing.

So, Gary, you may as well defend George Adamski or Van Tassel,
or any of the other 50s contactees, and their right to solicit
money from their adherents. On a more recent front, you might
defend Dr. Stephen Greer, as well. I note that Dr. Salla charges
$250 per course, plus required texts (his own book being the
first text on the list).

My final statment, Mr. Matteson, is that your vehement letter
posted here does not, in actuality, address the issue of
"academic freedom." Rather, it defends the right to sell snake
oil.

Rod Brock

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------






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                          Lights Over Phoenix Site?

From: Louise Nicolaides <Louise.Nicolaides.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 16:07:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:37:10 -0400
Subject: Lights Over Phoenix Site?

Is anyone familiar with the website:

www.lightsoverphoenix.com

Apparently they have in their possession, a box which contains
information/evidence about the, now famous, Phoenix lights
experience which took place on March 13th, 1997.

I had been following their findings for some time, but they
stopped posting new information back in 2002 with no explanation
of why. It almost seems as if they had been shut down, or
prevented from continuing... but that makes no sense because the
website is still fully functional.

If anyone has any information about why these researchers have
stopped progressing with the "re- enactment" of the events which
took place that night to, specifically, a priest, husband (who
is well known) and wife, and a women in her 20's, I would be
highly interested.


Louise Nicolaides








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                            Re: Dr. Salla - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:09:23 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:39:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. Salla - Hall


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:26:16 -0400
>Subject: Re: Dr. Salla

<snip>

>Can anyone find an article on his dismissal, if that's the case.
>I can't seem to find any reference to it on the Internet.

>Steve

Steve,

All I have noticed so far is that in the controversial post
which Salla did/did not post (according to his soul brother,
Alfred Webre, who apparently feels strongly both ways), Salla
was referred to as a "former" AU professor.

If anyone has more information, it would be appreciated if they
would post it. Especially a non-Disclosure-type person with
objective information rather than the standard propaganda from
true believers in wild fantasies.

 - Dick







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                        Re: ETH Modelling - Kelleher

From: Colm Kelleher <nids.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 13:38:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:46:47 -0400
Subject: Re: ETH Modelling - Kelleher


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 16:44:39 EDT
>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

<snip>

Jacques Vallee and Eric Davis's recent paper: A six layer model
for anomalous phenomena

http://www.nidsci.org/pdf/vallee_davis.pdf

and

Eric Davis's paper on Tunnelling through the Cosmic Neighborhood

http://www.nidsci.org/pdf/davis_mufon2001.pdf

both begin the process of modelling UFO phenomena. As such I
believe they constitute useful contributions to this debate.

Of course for anybody in the game of attempting to test some
testable hypotheses, especially involving attempts to
distinguish between "Ours" and a putative "Theirs", it has not
escaped notice that one quickly runs into the problem of
National Security. Especially in 2004.


Colm Kelleher
NIDS






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              Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 16:49:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:48:43 -0400
Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -


>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 17:32:35 -0700
>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 23:46:41 -0400
>>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 18:42:19 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>>>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:43:31 -0400
>>>>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>><snip>

>>>You may get a bit of feedback on that one, Ray. The bullet's
>>>trajectory as fired on the Earth, neglecting air resistance, is
>>>parabolic. So also, as far as I know, the meteor, if air
>>>resistance were to be neglected. But I suppose a meteroid that
>>>doesn't get captured in the atmosphere could be in an elliptical
>>>orbit.

>>Wrong! In the first place, air resistance acts on both meteors
>>in motion and bullets shot from guns, so why bring in the
>>subject of airless passage?! A meteor is not a meteor until it
>>enters the upper atmosphere and adjacent air becomes luminous.

>>All meteoroids have elliptical paths in the solar system, and
>>retardation by atmospheric passage only modifies the properties
>>of the ellipse, constantly across time, but does not alter it to
>>a parabolic course. ...

>We'd better persue this trajectory question a bit further lest
>any readers receive bum dope.

Jim, FYI, I don't give out "bum dope", and I doubt many readers
are worried about your mistaken view of the mathematical
properties of meteor trajectories. Your only interest in this is
clearly to try and put me down because I have exposed Billy
Meier's hoaxed photos, and their early-on chief promoter, ex-
convict Wendelle Stevens, who told me he knew Meier photos we
were discussing were fake, and who seems to be a friend of yours
(judging from the way you shared some of my statements with him)
despite his court-documented molestation of young girls 14 and
substantially younger.

When I asked Wendelle why he was promoting a fake case, instead
of exposing it, he said it was because promoting it makes more
money than exposing it.

In case you have forgotten, the photo alleged to show "Semjase's
spacecraft" descending, but a day-glow sticker representing an
emission mechanism or whatever, was partially peeling off the
side, and the masking tape (unmistakable due to its texture)
holding together the bottom potter's-wheel-turned plate (with
finger marks from a slowing potter's wheel) was also starting to
peel off at one end. :-o

After Wendelle returned from his next visit to Meier in
Switzerland, he told me that those photos and the one I had
pointed out to him that showed a poorly faked, stuffed dinosaur
(claimed to have been taken during a trip via Semjase's 'time
scanner') with a button so poorly sewed in for an eye that you
could see all holes in the button and the thread holding it onto
the side of the head, had been "reclaimed" by Semjase and would
be returned to Meier for destruction! LMAO!

So, Jim, it is you who puts out, to use your words, "bum dope"
when you promote the hoaxes of Meier, and his lies not only
about UFOs but about being the Messiah, as you have done in
diverse contexts, privately and publicly. :)

>Fletcher was speaking of meteors,
>and bullets fired from a gun, in the presence of Earth's
>gravity, and mentioning the approximate trajectory.

Approximate, huh? :)

>Air resistance soon causes either one to deviate from this
>trajectory, but only slightly in a rarefied atmosphere. However,
>the trajectory it deviates from is a parabola, not an ellipse.

False! All meteoroids are in elliptical orbits of the sun, and
their paths remain elliptical until retardation from cosmic
velocity (and the air around them becomes incandescent well
before that), but by the time that happens, incandescence is no
longer produced, and it was visible meteors (due to
incandescence of the adjacent atmosphere) to which Fletcher was
referring. Sightings of cosmic objects falling after
luminescence ceases is very rare, indeed, and not likely to
cause a UFO report.

>The potential meteor comes under the influence of Earth's
>gravity before it comes under the influence of air resistance.

Of course Do you think that I or anyone else on this list in
possession of common sense does not know that?

A bullet's trajectory in the denser, lower atmosphere is, of
course, quite different (from a meteor's before retardation),
but I don't buy any claim a bullet fired upward at any angle
from the horizontal follows a parabolic trajectory. My physics
professor taught me differently, and maybe I was taught
incorrectly, but doubt that would be the case.

Well, Jim, trajectories aside, are you still in the good graces
of your messiah, Billy Meier, who claims to be the reincarnation
of Jesus? Too bad Jesus doesn't have anything better to do in
recent years than fake silly looking UFO photos with ever-
increasing numbers of balls attached to them! Could it be that
those ludicrous photos with their proliferation of shiny
perlite-painted balls are telling us far more about Meier's
unconscious need to compensate a diminishing testosterone level
in his old age than about any real UFO? :) Or maybe it is just
that, as with the crop circles' makers, Meier felt he had to
embroider them more and more over the years to keep interest and
attention flowing toward them, to energize his ego, and,
perhaps, his bankroll, through increased discipleship.


Ray Stanford







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                Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:55:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:49:59 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Allan


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 09:05:28 +0100
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 21:36:24 -0500
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>The real motive for the agression against Grenada was most
>>likely political. The Reagan Administration needed a cheap and
>>quick military conquest after suffering some bad foreign policy
>>setbacks in the Middle East. But the added bonus of shutting up
>>Grenada's eccentric leader about UFOs certainly must have
>>pleased some segments of the U.S. military command.

See below about this "eccentric leader".

>I think if the US military command were bothered about it at
>all, I suspect they'd be quite pleased that the only political
>leader openly interested in the subject was one who was such an
>obvious fruit-cake!

>It might be worth reminding American readers that as the Head of
>State of Grenada is Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, when the US
>invaded the island it was also technically at war with the
>United Kingdom, a point which I think Margaret Thatcher made
>quite forcibly to her friend Ronald Reagan!

Quite right.

Also, the US invasion of Grenada was in late 1983. The 'fruit-
cake' leader (UFO believer et al) of Grenada, Eric Gairy, had
been deposed several years before in a coup, in 1979.

Therefore the US had no interest in this guy when they invaded
the island, and thus had no need to "shut him up".


CDA






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             Re: FO Photographed With A Cellular Phone - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 19:00:37 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:55:45 -0400
Subject: Re: FO Photographed With A Cellular Phone - Ledger


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul >
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:20:04 -0300
>Subject: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone

>Possible UFO photographed with a celular phone

>On August 3rd three men were on Anhanguera Highway, Sao Paulo
>State, when they saw something unusual over a field. They
>stopped the car and 2 of the men jumped over the fence to get a
>little closer. One of them had a modern cell phone with him and
>took a picture of a strange, cylinder object a few meters above
>the ground.

>Under the object, which remained hoovering for 30 minutes and
>emmiting a sound that seemed like "several engines working
>together", some dust could be see been lifting into the air.

>The witnesses do not want to be identified.

>On August 04 I took part in a TV program in Brazil to comment on
>the photo - it is being analysed as I write.

>If confirmed genuine, it could be one of the first ever images of a UFO
>taken by a cell-phone and confirmed.

>The image is at:

>http://www.ufo.com.br/index.php?arquivo=notComp.php&id=457

Nothing there A.J. Just gave me the text page. It truncated the
URL which I added and still only the text page re. info and an
appeal to get the Brazilian gov. come clean.


Don Ledger






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                 Whither MUFON At The Crossroads Of Ufology?

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 18:08:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:58:36 -0400
Subject: Whither MUFON At The Crossroads Of Ufology?


== Whither MUFON At The Crossroads Of Ufology? ==

By Larry W. Bryant

Rarely, if ever, can an organization undergo reform from within.

For a perennial example of that axiom, we need look no farther
than the U. S. Federal Bureau of Investigation.  Since
institutional bureaucracy feeds off itself, and hence becomes
threatened by the prospect of reform, the organization's leaders
have little incentive (or power) to initiate, much less carry
through, any major reform. MUFON fits the mold here.  Likewise,
this same problem of inertia hampers the organization's ability
to undergo paradigm shifts in its mission/operations/management.
 In the case of MUFON, it may be helpful to install both an
inspector general (for accountability oversight and managerial
review) and an ombudsman (for representation of the public's
stakeholdership in MUFON's status as a "501(C)(3)" charitable
organization).

As usual, the question arises:  "Any volunteers?"


Thank you, Michael Brownlee, for your insightful, thoughtful
critique of MUFON's past/present/future role in helping the
public deal with the reality of Universal Flying Objects.







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               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 23:40:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:09:21 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:50:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 09:05:28 +0100
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 21:36:24 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>That's not completely true; the authenticity of the Barauna
>>>photographs was endorsed by the Brazilian government at the
>>>time. The photos were sufficiently clear to reduce some
>>>contemporary "skeptics" into alleging they were fakes
>>>perpetrated using 21st Century computer technology - back in the
>>>1950's.

>>What nonsense. This is a complete re-writing of history. The
>>Brazilian government did not 'endorse' the photographs, but made
>>an ambiguous statement which seemed mainly designed to avoid
>>having to discuss the matter any further.

>What ludicrous psychobabble. The Brazilian Navy's report stated
>(as presented on the CUFOS web site):

>"After Brazil=B9s House of Representatives demanded further
>information from the Navy, it was given a secret report on the
>official investigation. The document was leaked in October 1964
>to Coral Lorenzen, director of APRO. After reviewing the various
>sightings and the January 16 photographs, its author, Corvette-
>Capt. Jose Geraldo Brandao, concluded that the 'existence of
>personal reports and of photographic evidence, of certain value
>considering the circumstance involved [absence of evidence of
>tampering, the presence of other witnesses], permit the
>admission that there are indications of the existence of
>unidentified aerial objects.' He also noted the "strong
>emotional upset... in all persons who sighted the object,
>including the photographer, civilians, and members of the ship=B9s
>crew"

It's worth noting that the phrases in square brackets are Mr
Fleming's insertions. Without this, the statement is rather more
ambiguous, with typical weasel phrases such as "of certain
value...", "permit the admission that..." and "there are
indications that..." I find this a carefully worded statement by
a military officer who was trying not to offend too many people.

>It takes a heroic effort of unreason to force-fit the above into
>Mr. Rimmer's bizarre interpretation.

>>The present-day
>>>sceptics have made no such allegations about 21st century
>>>computer technology.
>>The debate is fully archived on this List, I suggest you re-read
>>it.

>I suggest Mr. Rimmer re-read it (or rather, "re-desconstruct"
>it, since that's what psychobabble enthusiasts seem to prefer
>doing rather than actually reading things). Here was my comment
>on Mr. Barauna's apparently remarkable powers to travel into the
>future and acquire technology not available to the average
>person-- or even scientists -- back in the 1950's.

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m17-005.shtml

In this posting Mr Fleming is criticising the Brazilian
researcher Kentaro Mori for using a ditigal technique to
simulate the type of double-exposure methods Barauna might have
adopted. At no point does Mori suggest that Barauna used digital
technology, and Mr Fleming suggests above.

As it is obvious to anybody that a 1950s photographer could not
use modern-day digital techniques, Mr Fleming must be suggesting
that either that Kentaro Mori is aware of this and is
deliberatly lying, or that he is too stupid to recognise the
fact. Which is it?


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm






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              Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 20:59:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:11:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites - Stanford


>From: Billy Zachary <bez012602.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 18:57:31 EDT
>Subject: Re: Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites

>Would someone be kind enough to describe what an average small
>meteorite should look like?

>I've found several chunks of iron-like material in my backyard,
>that looks as though it/they had come through space and got very
>hot - to the point of melting.

>I have lived here for almost 30 years and I have found these
>things for many years right here.

>I must have over a hundred lbs. of them by now. Please, someone
>get back to me on this.


Hi Billy,

That would require a very complex answer because the several
types of meteorites 'weather' quite differently, and from the
sounds of things, if what you've been collecting are meteorites
at all, the are likely quite corroded, from your description.

A freshly-fallen stony meteorite usually has a black fusion
crust caused by upper-atmospheric passage at hypersonic speed.
If the stone of the meteorite is a high-calcium type, that black
crust will be glassy and glossy If it is low calcium, it will
look more gray, because of a matte finish. The black fusion
crusts tend to turn brown, if the meteorite contains much iron
and it subjected to moisture.

Much more rarely, the fusion crust can show various degrees of
translucency, appearing brown, tan, even milky, and in rare
instances can be so transparent that it reveals the natural
color of the stone, within. Meteorites with that general class
of fusion crust are rare types, from aubrites to lunaites
(although not all lunaites have that type fusion crust), which
tend to be on the slightly greenish side when not just the color
of the meteorite, itself.

Most Martian meteorites, when freshly fallen, tend to have a
black fusion crust.

When fresh, metallic (iron-nickel) meteorites usually have a
nice gun-metal type exterior, but when not fresh, they are rust
colored.

Most meteorites are magnetic, primarily due to various amounts
of iron, but stony meteorites of the achondritic types
(including the known Martian meteorites, lunaites, and aubrites)
may, in many cases, have no free iron and are, thus, not
appreciably magnetic, except for some magnetic minerals, at
times.

Grind an edge off a stony meteorite and you will often see blebs
or speckling of nickel-iron, especially if it is a chondritic
meteorite.

Send me a image of some of your material in question, and I may
be able to tell you if it is meteorite. The things you describe
might be meteorites, but if I were betting, sight-unseen, I
would probably bet they are 'meteowrongs' -- things that if one
thinks they are meteorites, one is wrong.  Hematite, goerthite,
magnetite, and smelter slag are often mistaken for meteorites.

Even the stony meteorites (but not all) are usually appreciably
denser (more weight per volume) than are terrestrial rocks of
similar appearance. However, lunaites (lunar meteorites)
generally tend to be of lower density than other meteorites.

If you do not understand some of word I have used, put it in a
google search.

I hope this helps.


Ray Stanford







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                          Re: Dr. Salla - Matteson

From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 20:57:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:41:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. Salla - Matteson


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 21:49:16 +0000
>Subject: Re: Dr. Salla

>>From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul>
>>To: asaid.nul, ibroder.nul, ladner.nul
>>Cc: sdi.nul
>>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 12:07:52 -0400
>>Subject: Dr. Salla


>You may be confusing "freedom of speech" with "academic freedom,"

I agree, you are correct and I stand corrected. Thank you.


Gary







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                        The MUFON Conundrum - Part II

From: Michael Brownlee <michael.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 19:52:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:45:54 -0400
Subject: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II


The MUFON Conundrum - Part II

=46rom Research To Exopolitical Activism?
Observations from the 35th Annual MUFON Symposium

Special to www.CosmicTribune.com

by Michael Brownlee

Observers might question the wisdom of MUFON directors in
inviting exopolitical lobbyist Stephen Bassett to be a featured
presenter at the 35th annual MUFON symposium. After all, Bassett
is not a researcher or field investigator, nor even a member of
the organization. Instead, he is a self-declared activist
dedicated to ending the government-imposed "truth embargo on the
fact of an extraterrestrial presence engaging the planet earth
and the human race."

Known as the only "UFO lobbyist" in the nation=92s capital,
Bassett has since 1966 tirelessly campaigned for open
congressional hearings on UFO/ET events and evidence, in hopes
of bringing about Disclosure of what the government knows and
has kept secret about the extraterrestrial presence. He is the
founder of the Paradigm Research Group, Executive Director of
the Extraterrestrial Phenomenon Political Action Committee (X-
 PPAC), and in 2002 was a congressional candidate for the 8th
District of Maryland, openly campaigning for the truth about the
extraterrestrial presence.

Following on the heels of John Schuessler, Bassett offered a
direct challenge to MUFON (which he sees as "a citizens=92 science
movement") to change its mission statement and reassert itself
as the pre-eminent activist organization in the world on the
UFO/ET issue and=97after increasing its membership to 100,000=97to
exert its new-found influence to break the political impasse
that prevents Disclosure from happening. Bassett made it clear
that he would like MUFON to adopt his own motto: "If Congress
will not do its job, the people will."

In essence, Bassett exhorted MUFON to reorganize itself as a
political power and "go to Washington and kick butt," thus
ending the truth embargo which he says began in July, 1947, when
General Roger Raimey rescinded an official Air Force press
release claiming retrieval of a crashed "saucer" in the desert
near Roswell, New Mexico, and substituted a dubious "weather
balloon" explanation of those enigmatic events.

Not surprisingly, there was no immediate response by MUFON
officials to Bassett=92s "modest proposal," nor is it likely that
there will be.

For Bassett, Disclosure means that "the presence of
extraterrestrials becomes a known fact, with all its
implications," thereby precipitating the death of an outmoded
worldview and the birth of another. In this scenario, the
current dominant paradigm=97absent a recognition of the
extraterrestrial presence=97collapses, ushering in a new golden
age "in which the human race will step up and out, entering a
galactic reality."

Strikingly, Bassett assured his audience that the ETs "are not
here to turn us into some alpaca farm." Here, he subtly echoes
Steven Greer, director of The Disclosure Project and the Center
for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence (CSETI), who
preaches that extraterrestrials offer humanity both
technological and spiritual redemption (a view that is either
profoundly na=EFve or unabashedly Machiavellian).

According to Bassett, the truth embargo=97institutionalized with
passage of the 1947 National Security Act and the initiation of
the secret "Majestic 12" management group=97has "broken the social
contract, compromised the mission of NASA, eroded trust in
government, withheld life- and environmental-enhancing
technology and warped the relationship between two branches of
government (executive and legislative) and the military
intelligence community."

This truth embargo is now unraveling, says Bassett, "due to the
emergence of military and agency witnesses since the end of the
Cold War." Indeed, he insists that the witness process,
exemplified in a dramatic press conference at the National Press
Club four months before the 9/11 attacks, "is the number one
factor driving the vector toward disclosure."

Ever ready to exploit a political moment, Bassett took advantage
of his MUFON symposium platform to read open memos to
Presidential candidates George Bush, John Kerry and Dennis
Kucinich, who in his view are being increasingly pressured "to
take a position on the most controversial and implicative issue
in the world today."

In his memo to George Bush, Bassett holds out the prospect of
becoming "the disclosure president" (the Republican power
brokers=92 choice), thereby creating a legacy of "the leader who
ended the truth embargo and informed the nation and the world of
the extraterrestrial presence engaging this planet."

To John Kerry, he advises repudiating his membership in Skull
and Bones=97an "absurd and dangerous secret society"=97in order to
gain credibility, and if elected to reject need-to-know excuses
from intelligence agencies "for their refusal to give you the
information you need to make a disclosure decision."

Finally, Bassett exhorts Dennis Kucinich (whose worldview
"already embraces the possibility of an extraterrestrial
presence") to utilize his spot at the Democratic convention "to
place the most important issues in the world before the nation,"
promising that "millions of people around the planet will stand
and applaud true political courage."

Where does Bassett himself stand on the election? "I don=92t care
who=92s president," he says, "disclosure has to happen."

For Bassett, the truth embargo simply cannot last four more
years. He explains that "the national security state" (the
military/intelligence infrastructure needed to hold the ET
cover-up in place) has produced a growing disease that has
severely eroded the foundations of democracy: "the need to lie,
when the truth would probably serve."

The result has been a profound cynicism among the citizenry,
Bassett says, to the point that "76 percent of Americans didn=92t
vote in the last election, and George Bush was elected by 12.5
percent of the public. What =91democracy=92 are we talking about?"


[End of Part II]
----





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                    Re: Perseid Meteor Shower - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 23:25:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:47:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Perseid Meteor Shower - Stanford


IMO, it's a rather corny presentation (below), but the meteor
show might be nice:

NASA Science News for August 9, 2004

Like bugs streaking colorfully down the side window of a moving
car, Earthgrazing Perseid meteors could put on a striking show
after sunset on August 11th.

FULL STORY at

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/09aug_horseflies.htm?list159275


Through volunteer translation, at least some Science.nul
stories are translated into 9 languages. Learn more at:

http://science.nasa.gov/OtherLanguages.htm

Wishing you good weather and clear vision,
Ray Stanford







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              Re: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone - Booth

From: Billy Booth <Ufocasebook.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 23:34:46 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:49:49 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone - Booth


Just a note to let you all know that I rec'd info on the Brazil
cellphone case this morning, and translated the details, and
enhanced the images. You can access it here:

http://ufocasebook.com/brazilcellufo.html







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                      Factsheet On Salla's Termination

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:42:26 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:53:36 -0400
Subject: Factsheet On Salla's Termination


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:26:16 -0400
>Subject: Re: Dr. Salla

>Can anyone find an article on his [Salla's] dismissal, if
>that's the case. I can't seem to find any reference to it on the
>Internet.

Hi, Steve,

There's a factsheet on Dr. Salla's termination posted at his
very own website:

http://exopolitics.org/PA-termination-factsheet.htm

It begins:

"On August 3, 2004, I was interviewed on George Noory's Coast to
Coast and was asked about the status of my present association
with the Center for Global Peace, American University,
Washington DC. I informed George that as a result of my
exopolitics research, the program I had been developing, the
Peace Ambassador Program, was summarily terminated in late
April, 2004..."

I had admonished myself when this exopolitics stuff surfaced
that it was only a matter of time before Salla (and possibly
Webre) would be making appearances on George Noory. I make no
particular claims of prophet-hood, however, since it's a
foregone conclusion that if it's nuts, it's gonna be on
Coast-to-Coast.

Best,

Rod Brock


=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------







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                       Re: Extrasolar Planets - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:07:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:43:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Extrasolar Planets - Sparks


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 22:59:33 +0000
>Subject: Extrasolar Planets

>Most of you will be aware that the first detection of a planet
>orbiting a sun (star) outside of our own solar system was made
>in 1995 by detecting (in simple terms) the apparent "wobble" in
>the position of the host sun (star).

>What I was unaware of until now is that this method of looking
>for extrasolar planets was discussed at a BUFORA event on
>27/3/1964. A lecturer called Stephen Smith from a Cambridge (UK)
>UFO group suggested the method.

>The following is a quote from an article on page 6 of "Saucer
>Forum", V3 Issue 2 (April/May/June 1965) written by the editor
>at the time (Jimmy Goddard). The lecture by Stephen Smith was
>entitled "Life beyond the Earth".

>"He then gave several theories as to how the Solar system
>started, after which he said that it was possible to note
>whether the nearest stars were likely to have planetary systems,
>by watching to see if they wobbled during their rotation."

>I had no idea that the theoretical method of detection has been
>put forward so long before anyone produced results using it.

<snip>

The first detection of an extrasolar planet, using this same
gravitational "wobble" method, was claimed as far back as 1963,
not just a theoretical suggestion.  Astronomer Peter van de Kamp
claimed to have found a planetary companion of Barnard's Star
(Astrophysical Journal, vol. 68, p. 515, 1963).  It probably
goes back earlier than 1963 (I seem to vaguely recall something
in a Keyhoe book).






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                     Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For

From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 02:14:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:04:03 -0400
Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:47:32 -0500
>Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 23:27:41 EDT
>>Subject: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

>>http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/index.html

>>Interesting look at how the mainstream presents it's look into
>>ET research.

>>I got word several months ago pals of mine in the press were
>>given a rush-rush push to cover topics like this.

>>Guess it's a ratings thingie. Also a good betting pool is
>>probably in the running.

>>Expect lots of ET/UFO stories in the next year ;)

>Hey, maybe this is G.W. Bush's "October Surprise.""We've
>contacted aliens from another planet, but they'll only give us
>the cure to all diseases if I'm re-elected."

Hello fellow Listerions,

I still hope this list remains above partisan politics as we
come closer to the election. Please don't send me partisan
fodder offlist.

While watching CNN's "Are We Alone" program I noticed that they
showed the Weekly World News issue that had the headline of
"ALIEN BABY FOUND ON MARS". It showed Mars landscape in the
background. The foreground was composed of a dying African child
with protruding ribs, a big distended belly, and a head that
appeared huge next to its shrunken body. It was topped off with
large and protruding eyeballs staring at the reader.

That is really the sickest of tabloid exploitation! Take a dying
child who by now most likely passed away from starvation and try
to palm it off as a Mars alien baby.  The publisher needs a
shave with BS rubbed all over his face for shaving cream.

Years ago I posted to the List that in MUFON LA we had a poor
fellow who used to hold up that tabloid while believing every
word of its BS. We were gentle with him because he was mentally
disabled. I sure hope he did not believe the Mars alien baby
lies issue.


Josh







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                          Re: ETH Modeling - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 05:58:38 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:05:52 -0400
Subject: Re: ETH Modeling - Sparks


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:47:17 -0500
>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 16:44:39 EDT
>>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:03:49 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

<snip>

>>The whole point of an "encyclopedia" is to provide a thorough
>>overview of a subject encompassing diverse literature so that
>>the knowledge is conveniently at hand. I am not going to the
>>time, trouble and expense (which I cannot afford) of obtaining a
>>very old JUFOS issue for an article by Swords that Swords
>>himself does not indicate in his much later 1998 Encyclopedia
>>article has anything about quantitative testable ETH models in
>>it. I assume from Swords' 1998 treatment in your Encyclopedia
>>that the earlier JUFOS piece was merely a more detailed survey
>>of ETH writings.

>Those of you interested in Michael D. Swords's JUFOS paper,
>a major (maybe _the_ major) scientific look at the ETH in the UFO
>literature, should contact

>http://www.cufos.org/pubs3.html

>or write CUFOS at:

>2457 West Peterson Avenue,
>Chicago, Illinois
>60659

>The full citation is Swords, "Science and the Extraterrestrial
>Hypothesis in Ufology." Journal of UFO Studies 1 (1989): 67-102.

>A fascinating follow-up piece is:

>"Astronomers, the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis, and the United
>States Air Force at the Beginning of the Modern UFO Phenomenon."
>JUFOS 4 (1992): 79-129.

>In my judgment these are essential reading to any serious
>student of the UFO phenomenon.

>Jerry Clark

Hi Jerry,

Guess what? I too am a "serious student of the UFO phenomenon"
because I _do_ in fact have copies of both issues of JUFOS and
did indeed read both years ago long before I received my own
copies (my thanks to a very gracious source who shall remain
nameless). They were in storage and I didn't think I had them
but I did. And your very impressive-looking "full citations" are
both wrong, because they are _not_ Volumes 1 and 4 but _New
Series_ Volumes 1 and 4.

I was absolutely right, Swords' 1989 paper does not present any
testable quantitative ETH models, except those of the SETI
literature that he criticizes, and even then he does not get
into what he derides as the "numbers game." This was just as I
had surmised from Swords' 1998 article in your UFO Encyclopedia
which made no reference to any such theoretical advance in
scientific UFO theory development as having taken place in his
own 1989 article. Swords merely criticizes SETI's modeling of
ETH without getting into the UFO numbers, and he does not even
mention Richard Greenwell or Stan Friedman within the UFO
community, both of whom have had extensive critiques of SETI's
work on ETH and UFO's. Swords does not represent the UFO
community as developing testable ETH models, only an array of
IFO-type conventional explanations all of which have been
"falsified" he says, leaving the ETH and "unknown natural
phenomena" (if I read him correctly, he literally seems to say
only ETH is left, see his p. 95).

Swords tends to lean too heavily on UFO "data-gathering, data-
 clarification, and pattern-finding" as scientific methodology
(what "data" did Einstein "gather" when he theoretically derived
the famed mass-energy equivalence, E=mc^2, in 1905 ??) but he
recognizes that, "Beyond the pattern-finding step, scientific
methodology requires testing or at least some form of pro-active
observation to proceed further." Swords cautions that "as in
many non-laboratory sciences, [UFO] variables were [are]
difficult to control and replication ... not possible, in
general." Yet Swords concedes that "Scientific deductions based
upon the available patterns are possible in part" but it is
difficult and "only the crudest predictions can be made and
checked [= tested]."

Well that is exactly what is needed, regardless how "crude" the
ETH and other testable models to explain UFO's may be at the
start, you have to start _somewhere_. With SETI and the famous
Drake Equation the initial numbers were very "crude" in some
cases just outright wild guesses, e.g., planets around other
stars had not even been found yet, and now 40+ years later we
have a database of very tentative planetary data to firm up some
of the Drake numbers, etc. The model framework was already
established by Frank Drake in 1961 when he set up the Drake
Equation (based most likely on reports of Fermi's 1950
calculations).

But should someone have told Drake in 1961 to stop what he was
doing because it was just "sheer speculation" and "wild
guesswork" and "wait till we have real data before indulging in
such theoretical fancies" or that he must have actual solid
numbers for each and every part of his formula instead of
guesses???

Even the somewhat over-empirical Swords praises the Drake
Equation _yes_ that's right, the "numbers game" Drake Equation
of the evil SETI Empire, as the one single breakthrough that
broke the back of conservative scientist opposition to SETI.
Here is what Swords writes:

Swords, 1989, pp. 67-8: "The major tool which has swung the
atmosphere of opinion has been the 'Drake Equation,' constructed
as a heuristic device by Frank Drake.... This mathematical
'outline' has allowed discussants to split up the complex
problem into more discrete bits upon which current science may
have a say. Tentative conclusions from the last decade's debates
are sometimes surprising in their concreteness...."

Wow, that sounds like _quantitative_ ETH modeling is not such a
worthless futile endeavor after all, it worked for the SETI
community, why not for the UFO community? Or does success have
to be measured by the breaking the back of scientific opposition
to the study of UFO's instead of being measured by the truth and
new discoveries made as a happy result of undertaking rigorous
ETH modeling in the UFO community? The UFO community has so far
failed utterly and completely in every one of its efforts using
past methods to attract ongoing study by the establishment
scientific community, so I do not see why that can be such a
wonderful recommendation in favor of continuing to do as we have
always done - fail.

Hmm, I also see that Swords applauds the concept in the Drake
Equation of breaking up a "complex problem" into simpler more
solvable parts. This is the opposite of the constant drumbeat
within the UFO community of appealing to the horrendous alien
"complexity" whenever this ETH modeling is attempted, saying
that it is just too far advanced for us to understand, aliens
are too different from us to comprehend.

In fact, Swords makes a very strong statement against the usual
suffocating wet-blanket approach of the UFO field which damns
all efforts to understand aliens because they are too wholly
"alien" to us.

Swords 1989, pp. 92, 93: "It has been said, loosely and without
any depth of analysis, that alien intelligence would never share
any behavioral similarities with our species.... it is
essentially a certainty that these advanced life forms have
several instincts/ motivators/behaviors in common with
_Homo_sapiens_...."

Yes that is what we need, a "depth of analysis" into modeling
the ETH (and other theories) to explain UFO's, like the Drake
Equation, though not necessarily using that exact formula
itself, but the scientific methodology it embodies and which was
used in formulating it (without any real "data" I might add,
mostly theory at the beginning). With UFO's we have a wealth of
data to use to test the ETH models. Data and theory need to be
interactive. Theory needs to suggest things to look for in the
UFO data which have been overlooked before or not thought
significant until "theory" made it significant.


Brad Sparks






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                  Explorers Find UFO Fragments In Tunguska

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 05:16:38 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:07:10 -0400
Subject: Explorers Find UFO Fragments In Tunguska


Explorers Find UFO Fragments In Tunguska Meteorite Area

Source: Pravda

http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/378/13705_tunguska.html

Explorers find UFO fragments in Tunguska meteorite area
08/10/2004 15:13

The meteorite flight culminated in the powerful blast up to 40
Mt of trotyl equivalent

Members of the scientific expedition of the Siberian state
foundation Tunguska Space Phenomenon say they have managed to
uncover blocks of an extraterrestrial technical device. The
space body, which was later called the Tunguska meteorite, fell
down on Earth on June 30th 1908, 65 kilometers off the Vanavara
settlement, the Evenkiya republic.

The first expedition to study the Tunguska meteorite was
organized in 1927. Professor Leonid Kulik headed the mission.
However, explorers have never managed to discover any fragments
of the celestial body.

The press service of the Evenkiya republic administration
reported the expedition worked in the western part of the region
in the summer of the current year. The mission's itinerary was
based on the results of the space footage analysis. Explorers
believe they have discovered blocks of an extraterrestrial
technical device, which crashed down on Earth on June 30th,
1908. In addition, expedition members found the so-called "deer"
- the stone, which Tunguska eyewitnesses repeatedly mentioned in
their stories. Explorers delivered a 50-kilogram piece of the
stone to the city of Krasnoyarsk to be studied and analyzed.

It is generally believed a giant ball of fire flew above Central
Siberia before the Tunguska meteorite blast. Scientists have
analyzed hundreds of eyewitnesses' stories and revealed a still
inexplicable detail. Thunder-like sounds and incredible light
effects were seen not only during and after the bolide flight,
but also before it. Several eyewitnesses, including a political
exile (a highly-educated individual), mentioned that in their
stories. It is very hard to explain it with subjective mistakes,
because such affirmations reiterate independently. Observers
were located tens of kilometers far from the area of the fall. A
ballistic wave could not create such a sound: it could remain
behind the bolide, but it could never outdistance it. The only
real explanation can be linked with powerful electromagnetic
phenomena, albeit scientists have not developed a complete
analysis of the issue from this point of view.

Another circumstance is tied with the direction of the body's
movement. On the ground of eyewitnesses' testimonies collected
in the 1920s and 1930s, scientists concluded the bolide had
flown northwards from the south. The analysis of the woods
destruction, though, testified to the westwards movement of the
body from the east. It is noteworthy it is the direction that
can be traced in eyewitnesses' stories.

The discrepancy is evident. A lot of scientists have tried to
explain the mysterious phenomenon using various approaches. It
was particularly said several bolides had flown above the
Siberian woods in 1908. This point of view seems to be rather
unfounded - no eyewitness could see several bolides in one day.
Another theory provoked a discussion in the scientific world,
when professor F.Zigel proposed the meteorite maneuvered in the
Earth's atmosphere. It would be possible to discuss the theory
only if the Tunguska meteorite was a man-caused catastrophe. The
meteorite flight culminated in the powerful blast up to 40 Mt of
trotyl equivalent.









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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 32

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:07:05 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:09:48 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 32


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 32
August 11, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


REPTOIDS SPOTTED IN
NORTHERN CHILE?

      Strange creatures described as "dinosaur-like" and
standing 2 meters (6 feet, 6 inches) tall have been seen
in recent weeks in Pampa Acha, a small town 17 kilometers
(10 miles) from the city of Arica in northern Chile.
      The "two strange creatures, described as small
dinosaurs and with a physical appearance similar to that
of a kangaroo, were reported by the occupants of a Terrano
pickup truck between Iquique and Arica on Thursday night,"
July 30, 2004.
      "The vehicle's driver, Dario Riquelme, was traveling
in the company of (Chilean) Army official Hernan Cuevas,
his wife and two young children.  According to his
account, the situation which left the family rather
nervous and confused at 9:30 p.m. that evening.  The event
took place in the Pampa Acha sector, only a few moments
before passing" the barrio "Presencias Tutelares, 17
kilometers south of Arica."
      "Riquelme and his party left Iquique," just south of
Chile's border with Peru "at 6 p.m.  They were only a few
minutes away from Arica and were holding a normal
conversation when something strange darted in front of the
vehicle."
      "'My companion said, 'Look at that tremendous beast!'
and I managed to hit the brakes.  Then, after a few
minutes, the second one ambled past, and it was even more
startling because it was just like a dinosaur, walking on
two legs.  It had very noticeable thighs,' Riquelme said."
      "According to the driver's description, the figures
were grey and hairless.  The second one, which crossed a
few minutes later, was clearly seen by Riquelme, Hernan
Cuevas and his 12-year-old daughter, Tania.  They
estimated the creatures' height at 2 meters (6 feet, 6
inches), thanks to the fact that the beasts' distance from
the vehicle at the moment it crossed was not more than 4
meters (13 feet)."
      "In the case of the second 'animal,' they said it was
smaller but were able to see it clearly because it was a
clear night and there was moonlight.  However, what was
most remarkable about both creatures was the speed at
which they crossed the road and the strides they took."
      Riquelme and Cuevas had gone "to Arica to purchase a
vehicle...But the strange event caused nervousness among
Sr. Cuevas's wife and daughter.  'The good thing is that
when they started screaming, my companion and I didn't
lose control and kept calm.  Later we stopped to smoke a
cigarette and walked around.  From there I descended
(drove--J.T.) calmly to Arica, but I'm still nervous,'
explains the driver, who contacted (the Chilean newspaper)
La Estrella immediately after reaching the city."
      "Riquelme's account coincides with that of Hernan
Cuevas, who is a recruiting officer with the Army."
      "'When the first crossing occurred, I asked Dario if
he had seen it, and he said yes.  Then we started making
comments as to what it might have been.  Shortly after,
another one walked by, shorter, but very similar to a
dinosaur or a lizard running on two legs.  Even my eldest
daughter saw it and let out a scream,' Cuevas said."
      "Twelve-year-old Tania stated that the creatures were
very similar to a dinosaur and had small hands."
      "Meanwhile, Sra. Cuevas almost didn't realize what
was going on because she was paying attention to the
couple's younger child, who was asleep."
      "Neither Riquelme nor Cuevas had ever experienced a
similar situation and would not even compare it with
descriptions of other creatures, such as the alleged
Chupacabras that attack and exsanguinate (drain of blood--
J.T.) animals in their fields.  But they still have not
managed to find an explanation for what they saw Thursday
night."
      "A new report involving the sighting of strange
animals in the Pampa Acha sector was made known" Monday,
August 2, 2004, "and coincides almost exactly with the one
described Thursday by driver Dario Riquelme."
      "The case involves the six members of the Abett de la
Torre Diaz family, who live at Fuerte Baquedano, in the
community of Pozo Almonte.  All of them were traveling
from their home to Arica two weeks ago, and, as they
crossed the Pampa Acha sector, less than 20 kilometers (13
miles) from the city, near Presencias Tutelares, they were
faced with four creatures they described at first as 'dog-
faced kangaroos' that moved slowly through the air."
      "The event occurred at approximately 9 p.m. and left
almost all of the family's members traumatized.  The
family consisted of Carlos Abett de la Torre, a (Chilean)
Army non-commissioned officer, his wife Teresa (Diaz),
their three children and a three-year-old nephew."
      "'I was traveling in the back seat with my brothers,
talking, and suddenly everything went dark.  Then I told
my brother what I was seeing, and he told me to keep quiet
because Mom gets nervous.  Later I looked through the
window and saw more things that looked like birds, with
dogs' heads and backswept wings.  My father said they were
like gargoyles,' explained Carmen Abett de la Torre, the
couple's daughter."
      "Carmen added that she wasn't sure if the creatures
had wings or legs, but then they moved them toward the
rear.  The height of the animals was calculated at 2
meters.  Two of the beings flew over the vehicle; another
two appeared, but this time darting in front of the
vehicle."
      "'We were speechless for some 10 minutes, and my Mom
told us to react, and then we started discussing what we
had seen.'"
      "Teresa Diaz, Carmen's mother, was traveling in the
front passenger seat beside her husband and was the one
who saw the creature the clearest.  Her impression was
that these animals were moving slowly over the car first
and then in front of it.  However, they appeared to match
the vehicle's speed, which was 100 kilometers per hour (60
miles per hour--J.T.)."
      "The situation caused such nervousness among the
whole family that all they wanted to do was get to Arica
and forget the traumatic incident.  Once in the city, they
told their relatives what had happened."
      "'Then we were terrified to go back,' Teresa added,
with regard to the day they were getting ready to return
to their home in Fuerte Baquedano."
      "At the time of the strange encounter, the moonlight
provided certain visibility, which as well as the similar
(Riquelme) case made known last week, enabled the beast to
be clearly seen.  Furthermore, the animals did not go any
further than 20 meters (66 feet) from the car in which the
Abett de la Torre family was driving.  All of the family
members agreed as to what they had seen.  They were
startled and nervous as a result of the sighting.  None of
them went public for fear of ridicule and mockery."
      "Carabinero (Chilean national police--J.T.) members
of the Cuya barracks stated that until now no one had
approached them to report a similar event.  However, they
had heard of strange creatures being witnessed in the
Pampa Acha sector from third parties.  In any event, they
added that they constantly patrol the road near the sector
where the incident occurred."  (See the Chilean newspaper
La Estrella of Arica for August 1, 2004, "Strange
creatures reported in Pampa Acha," and for August 3, 2004,
"More strange creatures reported in Acha."  Muchas gracias
a Scott Corrales, Claudio Ojeda y Liliana Nunez para estos
articulos de diario.)
(Editor's Comment:  And welcome to Alien Invasion Week
here at UFO Roundup. The Reptoids aren't the only six-
foot-plus extraterrestrials on Earth this week.  Keep
reading...)


MANTIS ALIENS SPOTTED IN
FORT SMITH, ARKANSAS

      On Wednesday, August 4, 2004, at 10 p.m., eyewitness
A.T. and his girl friend were lying on the grass in Kay
Rodgers Park, just off Midland Boulevard in Fort Smith,
Arkansas (population 80,268) when they spotted two aliens
nearby.
      "My girl friend and I were hanging out at a local
park when we saw two figures walk out of the bushes about
10 feet (3 meters) away from where we were sitting.  They
wore grey or off-white tunic-style outfits.  They had
shiny bronze or gold medallions on the center of their
chest or shoulder.  They had (praying) mantis-like heads
and made strange clicking noises.  Their eyes would change
from blood red to neon green."
      "We stood there staring at each other for five or six
minutes, when they disappeared into a white light.  Both
were approximately 7 feet (2.1 meters) tall, but the one
of the left was a few inches short.  They appeared from
the south (the Harper Stadium area--J.T.) at an average
walking speed."  (Email Form Report)


FIVE SIGHT UFOs NEAR
PERRIS, CALIFORNIA

      On Saturday, July 31, 2004, at 10 p.m., eyewitness
L.D., "my two sisters, my cousin's boyfriend and my
cousin" saw UFOs approaching from the east near Perris,
California (population 36,189), about 30 miles (48
kilometers) south of San Bernardino.
      "We were admiring the stars out in a field near
Perris when we saw a bright star," L.D. reported, "Then it
dimmed and brightened in an odd way.  The object wasn't
moving while it was doing this.  The object appeared to be
a star at first.  Then we were arguing about what it was
when my cousin pointed out that it had a shape around it,
and it was moving like a blob with very dim lights on it."
      "My sister's boyfriend said, 'It's a blimp.'  A few
seconds later, the object separated.  The dim lights on
the blob all left at a fast speed, looking like a mini-
meteor shower, but all separating from that first object.
After that, you could see the new objects flashing in no
(particular) pattern.  The new objects all went out of
view in a few minutes."
      The first UFO "probably entered Earth's atmosphere,"
L.D. added, "It moved at an alarmingly fast rate away from
the first 'star,' then disappeared."  (Email Form Report)


FOUR TRIANGULAR UFOs SEEN
IN SAVANNAH, GEORGIA

      On Sunday, August 1, 2004, at 11:49 p.m., Paul S. was
walking down the street in Savannah, Georgia (population
131,510) when he sighted something unusual in the sky.
      "The UFOs approached from the northeast," Paul
reported, "There were four of them.  I saw four triangular
objects flying in a diagonal formation.  The objects were
light grey on color and heading south.  I heard no sound
from that direction.  The sighting was over in less than a
minute."  (Email Form Report)


ORANGE SPHERE UFO SEEN
IN WEST SUSSEX, UK

      On Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 10:05 p.m., "Frater"
was outdoors in his hometown of Horsham, West Sussex, UK
when he saw "a bright orange ball approaching from the
northeast.  It was moving very slowly for about three
minutes.  Then it split in two.  Both objects continued
moving west and disappeared.  They were moving too slowly
to be aircraft, and there was no noise."  (Email Form
Report)


MYSTERIOUS FIREBALL SEEN
IN MARINA DI MODICA, SICILY

      On Saturday, July 24, 2004, at 2 a.m., the witness,
"Georgio, was talking to a friend in Marina di Modica," a
town on Sicily, an island off the coast of Italy, when he
saw something unusual in the sky.
      "A bright light caught my attention," Giorgio
reported, "I saw a yellow fireball which stood still in
mid-air for a second, and then it moved to the left and
disappeared.  I saw some kind of smoke around the fireball
and a strange grey dust coming out of it.  The object was
not too far away."
      Marina di Modica is about 225 kilometers (140 miles)
southeast of Palermo, the provincial capital.  (Grazie a
Fabrizio Monaco per questo rapporto.)


MYSTERIOUS HOLE APPEARS
IN A RUSSIAN PASTURE

      "One morning Pyotr Malinkin took his cows out to the
pasture, as usual.  Having gone 5 kilometers (3 miles)
into the field, the man was shocked to find a large hole
in the ground 6 meters (20 feet) in diameter.  The pit was
not on the spot the day before--it appeared overnight."
      Malinkin "said the animals were scared to approach
the hole.  They would not eat the grass nearby.
Specialists from the Labyrinth Group," a Fortean research
organization based in Russia, "which was organized to
'study anomalous phenomena,' went out to examine the
field."
      "Local elderly women confirmed that a large hole had
indeed appeared in the field.  They said the hole had a
perfectly round shape, as if someone had taken a huge lump
of ground with a cup.  Local townspeople built a fence
around the hole" so as to prevent "'curious people and
cows' from falling into it."
      "The hole became a local place of interest.  People
came to see it and picnic nearby.  Others took photographs
against its background."
      "As it turned out, the pit was not round but oval.
It does not look like an excavated pit.  There are no
bulldozer tracks on its walls.  Nothing is seen in the
meadow, either.  There is some water in the bottom of the
4.5-meter (14-foot) deep pit."
      The Labyrinth Group "believes the hole probably
appeared as a result of a UFO's activities.  Aliens landed
their spaceship on the meadow to take soil samples."
      "However, ufologists failed to find any evidence to
prove the landing of an extraterrestrial spacecraft."
      "Ufologists also proposed that the ground hole was a
result of a rare, inexplicable natural phenomenon."
      "An identical phenomenon occurred 10 years ago (in
1994--J.T.) in the Ryazan region, when a huge crater
reminiscent of a shell-hole appeared in the ground near
Sasovo village.  Nobody was able to explain the appearance
of the pit."
      "Such holes appeared earlier in the Rostov and Tula
regions of Russia."  (See the ITAR-Tass report for August
3, 2004, "Anomalous ground hole appears in Russian
province."  Many thanks to Jim Hickman, executive director
of Skywatch International, for this news report.  Don't
forget to visit Jim's Web site at
http://www.skywatch-international.org .)


UNUSUAL CROP CIRCLE
IN BRITISH COLUMBIA

      An unusual crop circle appeared in Grand Forks,
British Columbia, Canada "in early July (2004) but wasn't
reported until July 30."
      According to Paul Anderson of Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network (CCCRN), "It was a circle with two small
rectangular appendages in barley.  It was approximately 27
metres (88 feet) across.  Single lay with broken stalks.
'Gold-coloured stars' were found in two areas of the
formation."
      Anderson warned that the find was "probably a hoax
coinciding with the Star Dreams crop circle film tour
through the area and around the country."
      Grand Forks, B.C. (population 3,994) is on Provincial
Highway 3 about 300 miles (480 kilometers) east of
Vancouver and just over the border from Danville,
Washington state, USA.  This is the sixth Canadian crop
circle formation of 2004.
(Many thanks to Paul Anderson of CCCRN for this report.)


BLACK HELICOPTER STALKS
A HOME IN NEW JERSEY

      On Thursday, August 5, 2004, Louise R. was asleep at
her home in Galloway, New Jersey when she was awakened by
a strange loud engine noise.
      "I was asleep, in a deep sleep, and I thought I heard
a loud noise approaching," Louise reported, "I dismissed
it somewhat because there had been a thunderstorm
overnight.  As the noise grew nearer, I thought it was a
helicopter until it didn't pass over--or leave.  I tried
to get up but couldn't at first.  I was conscious but
couldn't get up."
      "Finally, I went to a window and looked outside but
couldn't see anything.  It was cloudy overhead.  But I
could hear a loud, oscillating, roaring noise hovering
very near.  By now, my husband was awake, and he heard it,
too.  We live near an Air Force base so I hear planes
traversing regularly.  Could this be a plane?  If so, when
did they start to hover?"  (Email Form Report)


MESSENGER BLASTS OFF
FOR MERCURY

      "An early morning launch Tuesday," August 3, 2004,
"sent NASA's Messenger spacecraft on its way to Mercury."
      "All systems appear ready for a planned 4.9-billion-
mile (8-billion-kilometer) trip to the sun's closest
planet, say mission controllers at the John F. Kennedy
Space Center.  The $427 million probe will fly by Venus
(twice) and Mercury (three times) on its way into orbit
around the planet in 2011."
      "From orbit, the spacecraft will map Mercury while
probing its magnetic and mineral characteristics with
unprecedented detail."
      "'We will see things that no human has ever seen, and
know infinitely more about the formation of the solar
system than we know today,' says Michael Griffin of the
Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, which
built (the spacecraft) and manages the mission.  Messenger
(short for Mercury Surface, Space Environment,
Geochemistry and Ranging--J.T.) is the first mission to
Mercury in three decades."
      "'It's an unusual planet, even by the standards of
the inner solar system,' says mission scientist Sean
Solomon for the Carnegie Institution of Washington, D.C."
      "About one-third the size of Earth, Mercury orbits
the sun once every 88 days, but it spins so slowly that a
day on Mercury lasts nearly six months on Earth.  The
planet endures temperatures above 840 degrees (Fahrenheit)
on its days and minus-350 degrees at night."
      "Like its larger cousins, Earth and Venus, Mercury is
regarded as a 'terrestrial' planet, a rock with an iron
core.  And it is a bit of a mystery as well."
      "Visible from Earth for only several weeks each year,
the planet orbits too close to the sun for safe viewing by
the sensitive optics aboard the Hubbard Space Telescope.
That makes Mercury only slightly better understood than
Pluto, the most distant planet from the sun."
      "'Understanding Mercury is vital to understanding the
terrestrial planets,' says NASA solar system exploration
official Orlando Figueroa.  The spacecraft will rely on an
8-foot-by-6-foot (2.4 meter by 1.8 meter) sunshade, heated
to pizza-oven temperatures by the sun, to shield its
instruments as they try to answer long-standing questions
about Mercury."
      Mercury's "dense iron core makes up more than 60
percent of the small planet's mass and produces a magnetic
field of surprising strength, which perplexes
astronomers."
      "NASA's last visit to Mercury, the Mariner 10 flybys
of 1974-75 mapped only 45 percent of the planet's surface.
Messenger will map the entire planet in greater detail."
      "Craters in Mercury's poles, which are shielded from
the sun's rays, could contain ice.  The spacecraft's
instruments might be able to sense whatever minerals might
be hidden in the craters."
      "Like other interplanetary missions, Messenger will
use 'gravity assists,' flybys of Earth, Venus (twice) and
Mercury (three times) to send the spacecraft on its 4.9-
billion-mile, 6.5-year trip around Mercury."
      "'We have to gradually slow down the spacecraft
relative to Mercury,' says Robert Farquhar of the Johns
Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory in Laurel,
Maryland, the mission manager."
      "Without gravity assists, the 1,100-pound instrument
weight limit on the craft would have dropped to 360
pounds, which would have forced scientists to jettison
several experiments."
      "By 2012, mission controllers might lower the probe's
altitude to only 18 miles (30 kilometers) above Mercury.
The craft will eventually crash-land on the planet,
Farquhar says, bearing a U.S. flag to the surface."  (See
USA Today for August 4, 2004, "NASA spacecraft bound for
Mercury," page 8D; and USA Today for August 2, 2004, "NASA
sending a 'messenger' for a closer look at Mercury," page
9D.)

 From the UFO Files...

2004: TALL, THIN ALIENS
            SIGHTED IN OREGON

      For Carol Lowder of Salem, Oregon, June 28, 2004 was
a quiet Sunday in their heavily-wooded neighborhood.  But
things didn't stay quiet for long.
      At approximately 10:30 a.m., Carol reported, "My
granddaughter was facing south when she saw the beings at
the edge of the woods.  My granddaughter saw a tall, thin
but muscular white being approximately 10 feet (3 meters)
tall, in the woods behind where they live.  Her large
German shepherd (dog) went after it, but the white being
moved extremely quickly, and he was unable to catch it."
      "My granddaughter managed to drag the dog back and
run home.  When my son came back home, he and I went out
back but could not find anything.  I told my
granddaughter, who is a mature 13-year-old, to call me if
anything else strange happened, as both her parents work
and my 13- and 14-year-old girls are home alone."
      "The next day (Monday, June 29, 2004), at 11 a.m.,
she called me--scared--as she saw the being again in the
woods where she took the dog for a walk.  He again gave
chase, and she had to drag him back home.  I went over
there immediately with a .38 (caliber) revolver and
searched, but the woods were overgrown with blackberry
bushes and underbrush, and, in most places, it was
impossible to get through."
      "We were waiting at the picnic table at the outskirts
of the woods when Nichole (the granddaughter--J.T.) again
spotted the being.  But now there were two of them.
Before I could get my gun and myself up from the bench,
the beings disappeared once again."
      "My son and I once again took our guns and walked
through the woods, but could not find anything.  But, as I
said, anything could be hiding in those dense woods, and
we would not have been able to find it if it didn't want
to be found."
      "The picnic area and the surrounding woods were
searched for tracks and broken branches but, due to the
thickness of the woods and the fact that this one is
inhabited by deer, coyotes and other animals, nothing
unusual was found."
      "My son and my granddaughter did see a UFO on the
second day (Monday, July 29, 2004).  According to my son,
it was southeast of him in the sky, golden in color, and
the shape was blurred but it appeared to be a (child's)
top shape.  And it hung in the sky at the same spot for
about an hour."
      "No sightings have been seen since then.  He has not
talked to any of his neighbors to see if they saw
anything."
      "It was the first time he and my granddaughter had
seen anything of this kind, ever."  (Many thanks to
Canadian ufologist Brian Vike for this encounter report.)

      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us in seven days
for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you next time.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 11

                Chances Of Aliens Finding Earth Disappearing

From: William Wise <w.wise.nul>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:50:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:12:07 -0400
Subject: Chances Of Aliens Finding Earth Disappearing


Chances Of Aliens Finding Earth Disappearing According To Frank
Drake

Basically, Drake sais its OK we haven't heard radio signals from
other worlds because radio is only around for a short time until
it's replaced by fiber optics and the like.  If the aliens are
like us they will quickly evolve away from radio communications
so we should be looking for something else like laser pulses.

(Can SETI even detect radio leakage yet?  I thought they could
only hear directed transmissions.  Anyway...)

Will

-----

Source: New Scientist News Service

http://www.newscientist.com/news/print.jsp?id=ns99996255

Chances of aliens finding Earth disappearing

15:59 09 August 04

A pioneer of the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI)
has warned that for any intelligent aliens trying to search for
us, "the Earth is going to disappear" very soon.

Frank Drake's point, made at a SETI workshop at Harvard
University on Friday, is that television services are
increasingly being delivered by technologies that do not leak
radio frequencies into space.

But he added that in some ways the observation is good news for
SETI, as it means that the failure of Earth-based observers to
detect aliens so far may be less worrisome than it would
otherwise seem.

Most SETI efforts have focused on detecting radio signals that
might be emitted by intelligent beings on planets around nearby
stars. For humans, such signals "are the strongest signs of our
existence", Drake said, thanks to television.

Traditional television broadcast antennas put out one megawatt
each, and this radio-wave bubble now extends about 50 light
years out from the solar system.


Straight down

But that is changing fast, Drake says. More and more television
is now delivered by cable, with no radio-frequency leakage to
space, and by direct-broadcast satellites that put out just 20
watts per channel, all efficiently directed straight down the
intended areas on the Earth's surface.

So from the point of view of being detected through such
inadvertent broadcasts, the longevity of humanity's
detectability may be just 100 years.

And longevity may be the most important figure in Drake's famous
equation for estimating the number of detectable intelligent
civilisations on other worlds. The best estimates show that all
the other crucial factors nearly cancel out, so that the number
of such civilisations in our Milky Way galaxy is roughly equal
to their average longevity of detectability in years.


Laser beacon

Drake's insight has important implications for search
strategies. It means that eavesdropping on unintended alien
transmissions is unlikely to succeed and "argues for an emphasis
on detecting beacons", i.e. signals intentionally sent our way.

Some SETI strategies have already begun shifting toward that
approach, including efforts to find optical beacons based on
high-powered lasers deliberately aimed at nearby stars.

While optical communications across interstellar distances was
initially thought impractical, military research has led to
lasers sufficiently powerful to make such signalling much more
efficient than any radio beacon.

Nuclear-powered lasers on the drawing boards could produce
pulses that would outshine the sun by a factor of 10,000, said
Harvard University physicist Paul Horowitz, who has already been
searching for such pulses. He has designed a new telescope that
will soon be dedicated full-time to that search.

And other innovative ideas keep coming along. Planet hunter
Geoffrey Marcy of the University of California, Berkeley, said
someday we may learn to use the sun itself as a gravitational-
lens telescope, with a detector parked at its focal length of
500 astronomical units.


David L Chandler







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 11

                         Paul Davies Proposes GSETI

From: William Wise <w.wise.nul>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:06:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:14:14 -0400
Subject: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI



Paul Davies proposes searching for signs of alien tampering with
our genes.

Will

-----

Source: The Sydney Morning Herald

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/08/09/1092022404578.html

08-09-04

Space isn't the only place to look for proof of extraterrestrial
life, writes Paul Davies.

The question of whether we are alone in the universe is one of
the biggest of the Big Questions of Existence. One way to settle
the matter is to find some cosmic company. A direct approach to
this problem is to scan the skies with radio telescopes in the
hope of stumbling across a message from an alien civilisation.

It is a long shot of literally astronomical proportions, but
that hasn't deterred a dedicated band of radio astronomers from
trying.

Known as SETI - the search for extraterrestrial intelligence -
 this project has been running for 40 years. So far the silence
has been deafening. There could be all sorts of reasons for
this, including the obvious one that ET simply doesn't exist.
But while the radio astronomers seek to beef up their efforts,
it seems worth asking whether other approaches should be tried.

Put yourself in the situation of the aliens, out there somewhere
in the galaxy. They surmise that Earth looks promising for the
emergence of intelligent life one day, but they have no idea
when. There would be little point in beaming radio messages in
this direction for eons in the vague hope that one day radio
technology would be developed here and someone would decide to
tune in. Advertisement Advertisement

A better plan would be to leave a message for us to find when we
are ready. The trouble with this set-and-forget strategy is the
time factor. Life takes billions of years to evolve
intelligence. Even if ETs figured there was animal life on
Earth, they could be faced with a wait of tens of millions of
years. That is a long time for an artefact to survive.

Putting the text inside a large metal object and plonking it on
the Earth's surface is expensive in transportation costs, and
risky. Our restless planet leaves nothing untouched for long.
The artifact could easily end up buried or drowned or eroded to
scrap.

The ideal solution would be to encode the message inside a large
number of self-replicating, self-repairing microscopic machines
programmed to multiply and adapt to changing conditions.

Fortunately such machines already exist: they are called living
cells. The cells in our bodies, for example, contain genetic
messages written by Mother Nature billions of years ago.

DNA, the molecule that contains the script of life, encodes its
data in a four-letter alphabet. This would be an ideal medium
for storing a cosmic calling card. In many organisms, humans
included, genes make up only a tiny fraction of their DNA. Much
of the rest seems to be biological gobbledygook, often called
"junk DNA". There is plenty of room there for ET to etch a
molecular message without damaging any vital genetic functions.

How long would such a message survive? Mutations continually
scramble sequences of DNA, especially the junk part. Recently,
however, scientists in the United States have discovered whole
chunks of human and mouse junk DNA that seem to have remained
virtually unchanged for tens of millions of years. That would be
a good place to store a message.

The beauty of this scheme is that ET wouldn't have to visit
Earth to implant the message. A lot of junk DNA consists of
genomic fragments inserted by viruses over the course of
evolution. An alien civilisation could, for negligible cost,
dispatch tiny packages across the galaxy, loaded with customised
viral DNA. The cargo would be designed to infect, without harm,
any DNA-based life it encountered.

How would we know if there was a message in our genomes?
Presumably ET would make it easy for us to spot. Some sort of
in-your-face pattern would be best, something that stood out
from the random scatter of genetic letters.

A good way to do this would be to use the letters to represent
pixels on a screen tracing out a shape like a circle - an idea
mooted in a different context by the late Carl Sagan in his
novel Contact. That way, the artificial nature of the pattern
would still be apparent even if a few pixels got scrambled.

The arresting pattern would serve to flag the message itself,
which would otherwise be overlooked as a meaningless jumble. The
message would then need to be decoded with the help of a
computer. What would ET have to say to us? Most likely, any
message in the genome would be rather basic, like people waving
between mountain tops.

It might contain the co-ordinates and transmission times of a
conventional radio message, broadcast every century, perhaps. Or
it could direct us to a larger artefact located safely in the
fringes of our solar system, in which we would find the entire
contents of an encyclopedia galactica, including the rise and
fall of ET's civilisation, which may have died out long before
human beings even existed.

I have to admit that my proposal is at the extreme end of the
spectrum of speculation, but genomic SETI is probably no dafter
than radio SETI, which has the blessing of the US space agency,
NASA, and the scientific community. And I am certainly not
advocating that we abandon radio SETI just yet.

The co-founder of Microsoft, Paul Allen, recently gave $US35
million ($49 million) for an array of radio telescopes being
constructed in northern California and dedicated to expanding
the search for alien signals. Other scientists think ET would
prefer to use lasers to beam messages and have started a search
using optical telescopes.

But the advantage of genomic SETI is that scientists are
sequencing and analysing genomes like crazy anyway. For little
extra cost they can scan the burgeoning database for signs of
alien tinkering. Given the momentous nature of finding a message
from ET, a bit of effort seems worthwhile.

Radio SETI generates such huge amounts of data that scientists
have enlisted the public to help analyse it on their desktop
PCs. So successful has this SETI.nul project become that
molecular biologists have emulated it with Genome.nul

It would be simple to merge these projects under the catchy
slogan: The truth is inside us.

Paul Davies works at the Australian Centre for Astrobiology,
Macquarie University. This article is adapted from an essay in
New Scientist, August 7.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 11

                     Black Vault Radio Network Premiers

From: John Greenewald, Jr. <tbvfuture.nul>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:21:45 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:16:35 -0400
Subject: Black Vault Radio Network Premiers


The Black Vault Radio Network premiers "Real X-Files" on August 21st

NORTHRIDGE (BlackVault) - August 9, 2004 - The Black Vault Radio
Network hits the airwaves Saturday, August 21st, 2004 at 11pm
(pacific) on the Cable Radio Network (CRN) and simulcasting on
the internet at www.blackvault.com.

Every Saturday night, join the creator of The Black Vault, John
Greenewald, Jr. in a one hour radio show that explores the truth
that lies beneath the blacked out paragraphs of declassified
government documents on the subject of UFO's Military Secrets,
FBI files and much, much more.

The premier program will feature special guest, Dean Haglund.
Dean is probably best known for his nine seasons playing Langly,
one of the computer geeks known as "The Lone Gunmen" from the
hit FOX TV series "The X-Files". He also starred in the "The X-
Files" spin-off series "The Lone Gunmen". His character is so
popular that Dean is a main attraction at X-File and Sci-Fi
conventions all over North America.  www.deanhaglund.com

Each week, John Greenewald, Jr. will bring a new guest to the
show with exciting information, opinion and insight on topics
originating from the Black Vault's archives of near 150,000
declassified  documents found on www blackvault.com.

"The Black Vault" will broadcast from 11:00pm to 12:00am Pacific
LIVE with the call-in lines open!  Rest assured that if you
can't listen live, the show will then be archived on
www.blackvault.com and available for download 24/7.

CRN, The Cable Radio Network is known as "The Voice of
Television", CRN is carried by all major cable television
companies nationally. Heard in over 24 million homes, CRN
provides news, information, and entertainment to its listeners.
 On most cable television systems, CRN is featured on the public
information channel.  On digital cable systems, CRN's six
digital talk channels are listed right after the music service.
Check your local cable listings for availability or visit
http://www.cableradionetwork.com/

The Black Vault has several cost-effective advertising
opportunities. If you are interested, e-mail john.nul
for details.

Please tell your friends about this exciting new show and feel
free to forward this announcement!

The Black Vault Radio Network is programming that makes a
difference to all of us, so please... PASS THE WORD!







   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 11

               HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 08-10-04

From: Brian Vike <HBCC UFO> <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:58:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:28:46 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 08-10-04


HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings - 08-10-04


UFO - Three Stories Of Interest

My interest in this subject began at a family gathering in the
early 1960s when my brother, who served in a special part of the
armed forces, revealed that the military was fully aware of the
existence of UFOs. My brother, now deceased, had worked in what
he described as "missile guidance and control." At least that is
how I remember it.  Before joining the military he did not
believe in UFOs.

He told us that, as part of the schooling, he and 30 others
received special training in reading radar and being able to
identify UFOs from other aircraft.  He said the military did not
want an accidental nuclear exchange as a result of confusing
UFOs with possible missile strikes from the People's Republic of
China or the Soviet Union.  The army, he said, not only revealed
UFO existence but also trained him and the others of his crew in
how recognize their peculiar movements and characteristics on
radar. The military, he told us, revealed nothing further other
than that they were just here.

In  1978 I hired a 70-year-old (approx.) woman named Vivian, as
my secretary. I was director of an organization that planned and
created activities for older Americans. Vivian told me when she
was a young woman in her early 20s (around 1928) and living in
the state of Wyoming that she used to get up early in the
morning 2 or 3 times a week and play golf. She recounted one
very early summer morning just after 4:30 a.m. that she walked
about a quarter of a mile to the golf course. When she reached
the top of a small hill overlooking the playing area, she said
she was stunned to see a greenish glowing sphere-like object
hovering (she said �setting�) about 10 feet off the ground. She
told me she was so shocked that had she could not move. She
described it as being approximately 50 feet in diameter with
oval shaped windows around the top third area.

She said she knew instinctively it was not from our world. After
nearly 10 minutes of just staring at this most unusual sight she
said the object rose slowly from its position and began making a
faint humming noise. Then, quite suddenly, it just streaked away
and was gone with in a few seconds. She told no one about this
for over 25 years for fear people would think she was crazy. I
believed Vivian's story because she always told me the truth. If
she did not like how I was running the Agency she would tell me
about it and not always pleasantly.  She was a no-nonsense
person who believed neither in God, nor honest politicians.

For a few months in 1980 I worked at a car rental agency. One of
my duties was to go to the Seattle International airport and
pick up airline flight crew and bring them back for a car
rental. Every time I picked up a pilot I would always find some
way of asking them if they had ever seen a UFO.

Every pilot but two replied no. I felt some were even irritated
with the question but most were good sports and gave me their
opinion (usually negative) on the subject. A few told me while
they did not believe in them, other airline pilot friends did
report seeing them on occasion. One evening I picked up an
airline pilot captain whose name was Frank. When I asked Frank
if he had ever seen anything strange like a UFO, he was very
silent for a few minutes. I thought maybe he was insulted by the
question. I was worried he would tell my boss.

However, to my surprise he opened up and told a very interesting
story.

"During the Carter administration, I was flying out of
Washington DC with not only the regulars (passengers), but the
Secretary of Transportation, and his staff as well.  We were
about 20 miles out when three green globes or spheres appeared
in front of my plane." He said they appeared to be about 50 feet
or better in diameter and were flying formation. "We not only
had visual, but they were being tracked from ground radar. " He
told me because these objects were in front of the plane none of
the passengers were aware of what was going on.  "I called the
Secretary of transportation to my cockpit. I wanted a witness
and I thought he would want to know. I thought this would be the
biggest news story of the century.  I asked him if they might
have been experimental craft. He replied flatly;  "No,� he went
on to say they were globe shaped and had oval windows or what
appeared to be windows around the top third of the structures.
�Not one of my flight crew nor did the secretary of
transportation think they were other than what they appeared to
be?shy; some kind of space craft from another world.�

I found it remarkable that the type of craft described by both
Vivian and the Airline pilot were identical even thought the two
events took place more then 50 years apart.

Anyway that�s my story. I am sorry it is second hand info.

Thank you to the person for relating these stories for us all to
read. I also asked about the names, if I should remove them, but
the person said it was fine to publish as is, mainly due to the
first name given only.

As for the military story above, if others who were involved in
this program, or may know military folks who were. Would you
please be kind enough to contact me over this part of the story.

Also I would very, very interested in hearing from Airline
Pilots, retired or still flying who may know something about the
story above, or have witnessed an unusual object while flying
the many different routes around the world.

I would like to "stress", I will not release anyone's personal
information.

--------------------------

Fort Bragg, North Carolina Brilliant Oval Shaped Object

Hello Brian,

After reading some of the former military personnel sightings on
rense.com, I'd thought I'd add my two cents.  Although I was
never in the military, my father was Regular Army and retired in
1985 after around 30 years of service.

When I was a child in the late 70's we lived at Fort Bragg,
North Carolina. Actually, we lived in the small town next to it
called Fayetteville in military housing. In the summer of 1976,
I saw something strange that I'll never forget. I walked next
door to a friend's house and rang the doorbell. He shortly
opened the door and said he'd be right out and ran back into the
house leaving the door open, but the screen door closed. I then
turned around to see an oval shaped object that was an
absolutely brilliant pure white. I couldn't see windows or any
other features on this UFO because its entire elliptical face
was shining brightly. It was like pure light, but the object had
a distinct outline.

It was a calm sunny day with nothing but blue sky all around.
The UFO must have been located in the northwest because the sun
was to the right of me and behind a ways, so I was in standing
in shadows. I stood there in shock for a few seconds as the
thing moved very slowly and very solidly (in other words it
didn't bob around in the air) from the left to the right, or
north easterly direction. It was probably about 1000 feet or so
off the ground and at 40 degrees elevation angle. It made no
sound whatsoever.

After I gathered my composure I started yelling to my friend to
hurry up and come outside.  He came back to the front door and I
saw him sit on the floor and start to put on his sneakers just
inside the screen door. I watched the object for a few more
seconds and then it simply blinked out as if someone turned off
a light. A second later my friend came outside to join me. I
suddenly felt afraid not knowing where the thing had gone and
what would happen next, so I entered his house and got him to
follow me then told him what I saw. We spent the next several
minutes looking out of windows for it and that's all I can
remember.

I had forgotten all about this sighting until about 5 years
later.  I was living in Fort Bliss, El Paso, Texas when I read
an article that startled me. It was an interview with a man who
lived in North Carolina who said that he and an elderly couple
had seen the oval UFO's that I had seen. Furthermore, this man
stated that he had been told by unnamed government sources that
there was a secret or hidden base somewhere in the area which he
believed they were coming from. Incidentally, Pope Air Force
Base was right next to Fort Bragg.

I've lived in Phoenix, Arizona for the past 9 years. I did not
see the Phoenix lights that made the national news a few years
back, nor have I seen some of the things that people have
captured on video, though I'd really like to. However, a few
years ago I did see a strange V-shaped craft here at sunset.  It
was totally black, very big, and had no lighting at all. I was
driving directly east straight toward it and estimated it to be
around a mile or so up. I also saw a commercial airplane, silver
in color, higher, further distant, and to the left or north of
this V-shaped craft. The commercial plane, probably a 737 or
airbus, had its landing lights on as it approached Sky Harbor
airport.

At first I thought this big black object heading toward me was
just a flying wing or something similar that didn't have its
lights on, but as it banked to eventually head directly south, I
saw it was a V-shaped craft that was hollow in the middle, but
also seemed to have the bottom part, or the tips of its wings
connected.  In other words, a flying triangle.  Really strange.

Anyway, I don't know what the truth behind the UFO mystery is,
but there can be no doubt that strange things have been seen
flying in the skies everywhere in the world by credible
witnesses for many years that defy identification, and
therefore, explanation.

Sincerely,

Thank you to the witness for the excellent reports.

------------------------

Denver, Colorado Triangular Object And More

Date:  Varies
Time: Varies

 Message: All shorts of stuff the last few months. Just before
Halloween last fall, was called out to see a triangular object,
that was not the same length on all sides. It was longer on two
sides, and very long on the bottoms. The angles were all
rounded. It flew pretty low, was silent, and when it was in the
light clouds above my head, it glowed in bluish while light,
short of like the moon does. It was going in a more or less
circular path. When I say I got called out, it means I was
intended to see it. It kept on for a long time and every time I
moved to a different location it saw where I moved and changed
its course to fly directly over me. Lately in the last month I
have seen a large glowing ball, silver colored in the western
sun, and also the long rod, in the west, that was shining. I
don't know if it was reflecting the sun as it was setting or was
lit.

I also saw a formation of dark triangles, though at first I
thought it was geese, but on closer look, not birds. There were
7 of them and they just suddenly vanished. I have seen red
lights at the edge of Venus, but have come to the conclusion
that what we think is Venus is not, as 2 nights ago around 4 am,
I went outside to look at Venus intentionally, and it slowly
faded and went out before my eyes. I went in, had a snack and
went back out. I watched it slowly reappear, get very bright and
disappear again. I do live between 3 airports, and planes taking
off will show a single bright light until they change position
and I observe the flashing lights. I am an avid star watcher,
and notice several months ago that when Venus is in west sky it
is so bright that it looks like the airplane scene described
above. Me and my neighbors came to the conclusion is not Venus.
In the early morning in the East sky the same is true.

I think that many of the stars are not stars at all, but stars
ships. Stars did not twinkle this much years ago, nor would a
star change color while you watch it. One night recently, I saw
4 starships blink out. One night there was a star ship in the
bowl of the big dipper. And recently, on clear nights I have
noticed many totally new stars I have never seen. They also
super twinkle and change colors and move sometimes. On the
evening of June 20 around 10:30 pm my visiting 5 year old
granddaughter saw something thru the window and was jumping up
and down, so we went outside in our jammies and watched the
stars. She did not find what she saw out the window, but we were
treated to quite a show anyway as many of the "stars" were doing
quite a dance in the sky and we again saw some that I had never
seen particularly looking south. These 2 little girls had a
wonderful time watching. It was all very obvious to them and
they are still talking their little heads off about it.I have
seen several other strange lights that don't match the planes I
normally see. I have also seen a V shape object with 5 lights in
the V that was silent. Folks, all these increased sightings are
because we are about to have a brilliant wonderful "first
contact" and I know of what I speak! Get ready!!

Thank you to the witness for the reports.

-------------------------------

Los Angeles, California UFO Hovering Above Witness

Date:  1993

Message: Hello,

I would like to just say that in 1993 I was driving on a busy
freeway ( interstate 10) in Los Angeles, California when ( being
in rush hour traffic) the far left lane and at a complete stop,
I heard out of no where..." Look Up" ! I thought it was very
strange and so I rolled down my window and stuck my head out of
my window and looked just above me, and to my surprise, there
was this extremely large object hovering above me, maybe about
20 feet above my car and I looked around at all the cars next to
me, but no one even noticed this object that to me seemed
clearly visible.

At the time of the sitting, I felt really strange...like numb
all over and really feeling like I needed to sleep. It still is
so vivid to me even all of these years later, I remember seeing
these huge yellow lights (maybe ten or so) and they were so
bright...I wasn't able to see the sky in-between these lights,
it was completely black , so I knew this was not an airplane and
it was gone in seconds... it was just hovering above me and
didn't make a sound.

I drove home that evening feeling like something had happened to
me ( not in a bad way) but I just knew!

I really felt that this craft was there to see me, and only me.

Just wanted to share my story with you...hope it helps in some
way.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Retired U.S. Air Force Security Serviceman Sees Objects.

Date:  1996

Hi. My name is (removed). I'm 63 years old and retired after 30
years in the newspaper business and four years in the U.S. Air
Force Security Service (intelligence). Just thought I'd give you
my credentials so you don't think I'm a kook.

Anyway, I've seen a few UFOs in my life, and most are types I've
seen described elsewhere. But back in the 1990s -- it was the
year Bob Dole was running for president (HBCC UFO Research Note:
A quick check on the internet reveled that Bob Dole was running
for president in 1996) -- I was a volunteer parent for my
younger son's marching band. We were in Fresno, CA, for a
marching band contest.

While the band was getting ready, I looked up and saw what
looked like a bunch of black balloons that someone had released.

I went back to helping the band prepare, and then glanced up a
few minutes later, expecting that the balloons would have gotten
farther away from us and from each other. Instead, they were no
farther away from us, but they were getting closer to each
other.

I alerted others to this, and many in the band and among the
other parents all looked up, shrugged and went back to what they
were doing.

These black objects kept getting closer and closer together,
moving very slowly. It took about an hour before they came
together and coalesced. I kept pointing this out to everyone,
but no one was impressed. One young band member told me it was
probably helicopters.

Finally, they coalesced into a large, black mass, then flew away
at about the speed of a propeller-driven craft, but made no
noise.

I have never heard or read of this type of phenomenon anywhere
else.

Thank you to the gentleman for his welcomed report. This comes
from a long time professional and ex-military man.

-------------------------

Granite Bay, California Hovering Saucer

Date:  Aril 24, 2004
Time:  8:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Saucer shaped.

Full Description of event/sighting: On April 24th about 8
o'clock I was standing on my front porch after returning from
dinner when I saw a bright light hovering in the sky above the
ridge line to the east. For some reason I was curious and got in
my truck and drove up the road to where the light was coming
from. As I approached a turn in the road I noticed A metallic
translucent saucer hovering over the eastern downward slope
about 35 to 50 feet above the ground. It was making no noise,
and for several minutes it remained motionless. It's size
appeared to be about 30 feet in length.  I observed the saucer
and it's surface  I  now noticed was completely smooth,  mirror
like and glowing only slightly now. After several minutes The
saucer began to move toward the road and my truck.

At this time I became distracted with my truck and began to feel
afraid. When I looked up the saucer was almost directly
overhead,  it also appeared to have descended to about 25 feet
above me. Then I felt disoriented for what seemed to be only a
moment. the saucer moved back to its original location hovering
over the downward slope of the hill. As I can only describe it
as, I felt like I was coming to, when my truck shut engine died.
I fumbled with the ignition trying to get my truck to start.
Then oddly I saw a black sedan and a black suburban across the
street with their running lights on not their headlights. Before
the saucer moved over my car they were not parked across the
street and it seemed that they were observing me and the saucer.
Finally, the engine started and I left as quickly as I could. To
me it felt like only 15 to 20 minutes had passed, but when I
returned home the time was 10:45. I had left a 8:00 I lost 2
hours and 45 minutes.

Thank you to the witness for this interesting report.

--------------------------

Alexandria, Louisiana Black Orb Type Object

Date:  June 2004
Time:  6:45 p.m.

(HBCC UFO Research Note: I have removed a portion from the
following report to keep this witnesses personal information
private, due to the position he holds in Alexandria, Louisiana.
I called and I had a nice conversation with the person).

HI Brian,

Anyway, when I saw the post by the retired USAF serviceman
describing a black balloon-like orb, it brought to mind a
similar sighting I had here in Alexandria a little over a month
ago.

It was about 6:45 p.m. and overcast on a day in late June. I had
driven to the post office and was cutting through a parking lot
by a hobby shop called Fads and Frames. I was busy tuning in the
"Glenn Beck Program" when I happened to look up and saw this
black balloon, or what appeared to be a black balloon. What
struck me as odd was that this "balloon" would slowly move
around but never seemed to rise higher in the air. Then it would
move up higher. There was no visible string or tether. Then it
began moving further away. I remained in the car listening to
the radio and watching this thing and wondering if it was a spy
balloon or something. I did take a picture (which I have not
developed). At one point I looked away and it was gone. It was
very eerie. It didn't act like a normal wayward balloon caught
on an evening breeze (there was a slight breeze as I recall). In
fact, about a week ago I was driving past the same area where I
saw this and commented to my friend about the object. My friend
didn't seem interested in pursuing it further.

Thank you to the witness for their report.

-------------------------------

Saskatoon, Saskatchewan More Spheres

Date:  August 6, 2004
Time:  Approx: 2:00 p.m.

Yesterday, Aug. 6, in my office, about 2:00 in the afternoon I
walked over to a window to check out what kind of day it was
going to be. Being Friday it was nice to see hardly any wind, a
bright blue sky with not a single cloud. Almost immediately I
noticed something in the sky. It was coming in from the north
east and moving very slowly to the south, no lights, just a
single bright white sphere quite high up but very
distinguishable. I wanted to get outside to the parking lot to
get a better look as the window was giving me a limited view.
But then I thought by the time I get out there it will be gone
so I just decided to watch it until it went out of view over our
building. I thought "wow" that was kewl as my eyes back tracked
the path it took. As soon as my eyes reached the spot in the sky
where I first noticed it, another one appeared at the same spot
and took the exact path as the previous one did until it too
left my view over the top of our building.

Now I'm getting excited as you can well imagine. I thought, well
maybe its time to go outside for a smoke as I  took one last
scan of the little bit of sky I could see from the window. Right
at that moment, from the opposite direction, appeared a black
sphere travelling at a terrific rate of speed, from over our
building headed northeast. It lasted maybe 2 or 3 seconds and it
was gone. That was something I had never seen before and it
happened so fast I started to second guess myself, did I really
see it? But I know I did. By this time, my nose is almost
pressed against the window trying to get as much of sky possible
in my line of sight (one of those long narrow windows) and
again, from the west this time, a white sphere moving a little
faster than the first two did. But this time as soon as it got
right in the centre of my line of vision it just started zig
zaggin, up and down, sideways at extreme right angles for a few
seconds, then leveled off into a smooth straight line again for
a bit, then repeated the same sequence of strange movements,
then again leveling off to a smooth line disappearing into the
east. Well, now I had to go outside, besides I think my co-
workers were beginning to wonder why I was spending so much time
with my head against the window.

Now outside, I'm leaning against the building with a terrific
view. I'm thinking now I probably won't see anything. And it
began to look like I wasn't going to see anything as about 10
minutes past by. This next part is a bit hard to explain. You
know how when your looking at a large area and your eyes
scanning back and forth? Well, that's what I was doing, so you
pretty well know what is up there at every given couple of
seconds, especially if its noticeable. My eyes were scanning the
sky back and forth, from the time I started at a particular
point, where there was nothing, to the time it took to look at
the rest of the sky and return to that point was maybe two
seconds. But now not quite directly above me, slightly to the
west as if it just appeared out of nowhere, sitting in the sky
motionless, was a large pure white solid sphere. I say large
because not that it was actually larger than others I have seen,
but alot closer to me and not as high as they generally are. I
was in total amazement and my eyes glued to this object as I
noticed just above it another one appear but very high up, I
could actually see it come into sight, either it materialized or
it simply just came down from the higher atmosphere, I don't
know. It was just a dot, but also white, and it remained
stationary at a much higher altitude as the larger object
started to move slowly to the northeast. It must of taken 5 or 6
minutes for it to cross the sky and then it just stopped
motionless. As the larger one crossed the sky, I kept looking
over at the second one that was much higher up and it just sat
in the same location, never moving, as if it was keeping watch
or something, who knows. This was so amazing, I could keep going
on, but it all ended about five minutes later after both of them
remaining motionless, the larger one just disappeared while I
was looking at it, I looked back over at the one that was higher
and it was already gone.

That's about it, truly amazing, thought provoking and
mysterious. Thanks again Brian for the great work your doing,
please keep it up.

Thank you to the witness for the excellent report.

----------------------

Auburn, CA Three Orbs

Date:  August 6, 2004
Time:  Approx: 6:55 p.m.

I would like to mention that yesterday evening at approximately
6:55 p.m. local time I witnessed three orbs of light coming out
of the setting sun. I was going for my evening walk down
(removed) here in Auburn, CA when, I saw the first of the three
orbs coming out of the setting sun. I quickly got out my
binoculars which I carry with me and was able to track and view
the last of the three orbs. It was translucent yet very white
and bright. It was constantly changing shape, going from
circular to a dodecahedron shape with star or pointed like
protrusions coming out of the circumference and then back to
circular. All three orbs passed over me at great speed. They
looked like about 15,000 feet in altitude and after passing over
me they disappeared. I believe that these three orbs are
portents to more serious sunspot activity within the next two to
three weeks. ( Two nights past I witnessed one very bright orb
appearing in the eastern sky UNDER the cloud layer. It made a 90
degree turn to it's left in an instant then traveled for
approximately an inch at my arm's length and disappeared
rapidly.)

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 11

                        Re: Close-Up Photos - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:01:50 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:31:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Gehrman


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 16:52:34 EDT
>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

>>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 01:41:21 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos - Stanford

>>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 21:20:11 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Close-Up Photos

><snip>

>>>It is not a matter of proving they are fake. The claimant or a
>>>proponent must demonstrate that they are genuine photos of UFOs.

>>Sorry I disagree, you have claimed that the Brunswick Photos are
>>fake, once again I would like you to present your studies on
>>each photo to this Llist, to show how you reached such an opinon.

>>Please no more side-tracking, simply bring your research of the
>>Brunswick photos to this List.

>Can you tell us what was done to screen these photos for IFO's
>and hoaxing? Until there has been a Hynek Screening and
>investigation that is scientifically-technically competent to
>eliminate conventional explanations, there is no basis for
>treating this as a real "UFO", yet.

Brad,

Brunswick was a collector of UFO memorabilia, and these photos
were selected by the editors of his book from hundreds that he
possessed. Their first criteria was that the photos selected had
not been published before. Their second was based on beauty and
impressiveness. Brunswick also admits that some could be frauds
but he feels most are authentic.

Roy and I would like to see a discussion of the photos without
someone yelling from the sidelines that they're all a bunch of
crap. Obviously Ray hasn't studied these photos and as I
suspected he has no more knack for separating the real from the
fake than the average knacker.

The purpose of further discussion would be to screen the photos
and determine their legitimacy. These are pretty amazing photos
and every UFO researcher must have their own copy of "UFO". Some
of these photos may turn out to be fakes but that's what a
screening process is for.


Ed








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   Aug > Aug 11

                Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:06:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:33:05 -0400
Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo? - Gehrman


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 00:30:21 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:54:23 -0700
>>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

>>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:51:06 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: The Most Interesting UFO Photo?

<snip>

>I for one have the time and the inclination to take a close look
>at these images, and I would gladly share my list of supported
>alternative explanations... and my list of unexplaineds... with
>the group.

>Perhaps there is a learning exercise of value here. Perhaps for
>both sides of the debate. :)


Kyle,

If you think that's possible, I'll be glad to send you my book


Ed





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   Aug > Aug 11

                            Burisch Story Exposed

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:01:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:34:00 -0400
Subject: Burisch Story Exposed


Looks like UFO Magazine has sunk the Burisch tale in its latest
issue. Yet another UFO kook has been exposed.....

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/burischdirtbag.html


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM







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                  More Mysterious Lights Over Ticul Mexico

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:09:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:00:37 -0400
Subject: More Mysterious Lights Over Ticul Mexico



INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
August 11, 2004


SOURCE:http://edicion.yucatan.com.mx/
DATE: August 10, 2004

MEXICO: MORE MYSTERIOUS LIGHTS OVER TICUL
** Two youths record "flying object"**

For some weeks now, numerous residents of Ticul and even other
municipalities in the area have made use of the hill that
dominates the Benito Juarez neighborhood of La Perla del Sur as
their nocturnal gathering place.

The reason for these gatherings has become a fashionable subject
in this part of the State: alleged UFO sightings, a situation
that has also attracted the attention of experts in supernatural
phenomena.

There is no scientific explanation for these events; the alleged
witnesses claim they are real, but other people in the vicinity
consider them a product of the euphoric sensation experienced at
the meeting site.

The fact remains that it a party atmosphere is readily visible
on weekends at this site for at least a month now, including
consumption of alcoholic beverages and the presence of street
vendors.

This weekend, the UFO subject took a turn: two young men claimed
having filmed the apparition of a mysterious "vessel" that was
visible for only seconds.

The youths, with the characteristic excitement of those who have
made a great discovery, showed the video of the alleged sighting
to a reporter from Diario de Ticul.  A circle of eight lights
spinning on an axis can be seen; the lights then become tilted
and elongated.

Suddenly, the mysterious object changes course and vanishes.

Image taken from the recording of an alleged UFO sighting over
Ticul on Saturday night. The parties responsible for the
recording are two youths.


Translation (c) Scott Corrales Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi







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                      UFO Reported Over Progreso Mexico

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:14:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:01:53 -0400
Subject: UFO Reported Over Progreso Mexico



INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
August 11, 2004


MEXICO: Another UFO Reported, this time over Progreso

PROGRESO.=97 Members of the Centro de An=E1lisis de Fen=F3menos
Espaciales (Space Phenomena Analysis Center) have pointed out
that cases involving people who claim having seen unidentified
flying objects are fairly common in the Yucatan Peninsula, but
they are never widely known due to a lack of diffusion.

Cindy Mart=EDnez S=E1nchez, a partner with this statewide
organization, reports that the phenomenon was seen two nights
ago not only over Ticul, but also over Progreso.

Many residents of the Vicente Guerrero neighborhood were
witnesses to a mysterious cloud with a light that appeared and
vanished in the southern reaches of the port, she says. The
sighting lasted some five hours.


Translation (c) Scott Corrales Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi







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                           Filers Files #34 - 2004

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:09:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:08:41 -0400
Subject: Filers Files #34 - 2004


Filers Files #34 - 2004, Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern
Vice President of Skywatch International

August 11, 2004, Webmaster: Chuck Warren --

Canada -- Most UFO Sightings

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. These Files make the assumption that
extraterrestrial intelligent life exists. Are There Alien
Messages In Our DNA Strands? NASA Scientist Sees Possible Mat of
Martian Microbes, Mars - Sea Shell, Perseids - May Cause Damage
Tonight, Alaska - Anti - Missile Interceptor Deployed, Greenland
- Ice Melting Fast, New York - Strange Neon Light UFO, New
Jersey - Disc, Georgia - Tom Sheets Retires, Ohio - Circle UFO,
Tennessee - Disc, Iowa - Disappearing Lights, Nebraska - Fast
Moving Light, Texas - Orbs and Rectangular UFO, Arizona -
Numerous Orbs, California - UFO Videos, Canada -- Record Number
of UFO Sightings, Germany - Oval, and Were Foo Fighters Real or
Not?

"Pure logical thinking cannot yield us any knowledge of the
empirical world. All knowledge of reality starts from experience
and ends in it." - Albert Einstein

Are There Alien Messages In Our DNA Strands?

 SYDNEY - Forget waiting for ET to call - the most likely place
to find an alien message is in our DNA, according to an expert
in Australia. Professor Paul Davies, from the Australian Centre
for Astrobiology at Macquarie University, believes a cosmic
greeting card could have been left in every human cell. The
coded message would only be discovered once the human race had
the technology to read and understand it. Writing in New
Scientist magazine, Davies said the idea should be considered
seriously. For more than 40 years astronomers have been sweeping
the skies with radio telescopes hoping to catch a signal from an
alien civilization. So far the search has been in vain. But
Davies believes it is wrong to assume that extraterrestrials who
may be hundreds of millions of years ahead of us technologically
will have chosen to communicate by radio.

Leaving artifacts for humans to find once they are sufficiently
evolved - like the obelisk in the movie 2001: A Space Odyssey -
might be a more attractive strategy, he explained. But ensuring
the survival of such an artifact over possibly millions of years
would be difficult. A better solution would be to incorporate
information into the human genome, allowing it to be copied and
maintained over immense periods of time. One way to do this
might be to deliver alien viruses which could infect cells with
message-laden DNA, said Davies.

Scientists have recently discovered large sequences of "junk"
DNA that contain no genes and appears to be very stable. "If ET
has put a message into terrestrial organisms, this is surely
where to look," said Davies. A computer could be used to find
obvious attention-grabbing patterns within these stretches of
DNA, he said. If a sequence of junk units of DNA were displayed
as an array of pixels on a screen and produced a simple image
"the presumption of tampering would be inescapable". The DNA
code was easily big enough to contain a decent-sized novel or a
potted history of the rise and fall of an alien civilization.
Davies added: "Trying to second-guess alien communication
strategies is fraught with uncertainty, so we should try
everything we can afford. The truth may be out there somewhere -
or it could be a lot closer to home."
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=3D1&click_id=3D588&art_id=3Dqw10920265=
21143B252


Thanks to Skywatch-International, Click Below
http://www.skywatch-international.org/skywatch_membership_application.pdf

Visit The Skywatch-International Web Site
http://www.skywatch-international.org/


NASA Scientist Sees Possible Mat of Martian Microbes

COLORADO -- By Leonard David Senior Space -- A future astronaut
traipsing across the landing sites of the Mars Exploration
Rovers - Spirit and Opportunity - might be squishing into a
welcome mat of microbes, according to one NASA scientist. While
the twin robots push ahead in scouring their real estate
locations at Gusev Crater and Meridiani Planum, they leave
behind a tantalizing trail of issues that need to be sorted out.
One big unknown: Did life ever take root on Mars? And if so, is
that planet home to living organisms today? So far, the life-on-
Mars card has not played out. Rover scientists have seen nothing
they regard as needing a biological explanation. But the twin
robot landers weren't built to prowl around for life.

According to David McKay, chief scientist for astrobiology at
NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas, visual evidence
from the rovers is pretty enticing. The chronicle of Mars being
viewed as a comfy habitat for biology is an unfolding one, and
he led the research group that in August 1996 presented evidence
of ancient life from Mars. The observations, they researchers
said, strongly suggested primitive life may have existed on Mars
more than 3.6 billion years ago. The NASA-funded team found the
first organic molecules thought to be of Martian origin, several
mineral features characteristic of biological activity, and
possible microscopic fossils of primitive, bacteria-like
organisms inside of an ancient Martian rock that fell to Earth
as a meteorite - the often-called "Mars Rock" or as scientists
like to professionally label it: ALH84001."I've seen the saga
move from 20 or 30 years ago when virtually no one believed
there was life on Mars=E2=80=A6or that there was even water on Mars,"
McKay said last week. "Now the whole pendulum is swinging."
Microbial mat McKay said it is now clear a lot of water flowed
across Mars. Furthermore, there may still be water spurting out
onto the planet at certain times. "The same pendulum may be
swinging back toward life," he said. "We'll wait and see. These
are exciting times. "The Mars rovers represent an incredibly
successful mission, McKay said. Moreover, they seemingly have
"uncovered" a major find. He points to pictures taken by the
rovers that show areas of the martian surface disturbed by the
retraction of landing airbags.

Patches of surface "acted as a cohesive blanket of some sort"
when the airbags pulled back, McKay explains. "It didn't simply
crack apart like a dried-up crust. But one possibility is that
this is the fossilized remains of a biological mat of some
sort," he speculated. The mat would be made up of bacterial
parts and pieces. That claim can't be proven at this point,
McKay said. "That's one reason you have to go get samples to be
sure ."Swept under the Magic Carpet Mars has all the conditions
for life: water, energy, and organic substances, McKay pointed
out. "It is very clear that Mars was a habitable place in terms
of life as we know it. Meteorite evidence show there was
microbial life on Mars," McKay said. "And for all we know, there
still could be. It's hard to kill off life once it has started.
"Early in the mission of Spirit at Gusev Crater, scientists
dubbed the region messed up by landing bags as the "Magic
Carpet." The crumpled portion of the soil appeared to have been
peeled away, as noted by rover scientists. "I think there's
really something there," McKay told SPACE.com. "There is some
cohesiveness to that material. Talk about the Magic Carpet just
went away. I don't think it should have gone away. "He pointed
to work being done at Guerrero Negro, Baja California by NASA's
Ames Research Center on the evolution of a microbial community
functioning in microbial mats. "They've also produced some in
the lab. You pick that stuff up and it's kind of like a fabric.
It is fairly cohesive. A crusty material like dura crust breaks
up immediately," McKay said. Resolving power According to a NASA
Ames web site, microbial mats here on Earth are important
because their 3.4-billion-year fossil record indicates they are
our planet's oldest known ecosystems. 9 August 04 snip

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mystery_monday_040809.html

Note: Filer's Research Institute has been telling our readers
for many years there is life on Mars like this possible sea
shell?. "We find life the old fashion way, we look at it in the
images."


Perseids - May Cause Damage

On August 11, 2004, at about 21h UT, the Earth will pass through
the dense core of the Perseid meteoroid stream from the parent
comet Swift-Tuttle. The stream is calculated to pass within
0.0013 AU from the Earth's orbit and should provide plenty of
shooting stars. Observation should be good throughout the night.
There is a possibility that larger meteoroids will pass through
our protecting atmosphere. There is always a danger from space,
but fortunately our observation of the skies is increasing.

Alaska - Anti - Missile Interceptor Deployed

FORT GREELY - The United States deployed its first of six
ground-based missile interceptors that would theoretically stop
a nuclear missile attack. Deployment of the interceptor "marks
the end of an era where we have not been able to defend our
country against long-range ballistic missile attacks", said
Major General John Holly, program director for the Ground-Based
Midcourse Defense system. North Korea, China, Russia and Iran
are believed to be building nuclear tipped missiles that could
hit the US. The missile interceptor could likely be programmed
to hit an incoming meteorite if needed, although, scientists
argue about the effectiveness of this procedure. Actually
diverting an incoming meteorite from hitting the Earth would be
more effective.

Greenland - Ice Melting Fast

By Hamish Macdonell, The Scotsman reports, "Greenland's cover of
ice is melting ten times quicker than previously thought, an
increase that could lead to floods across the world," scientists
have found. Newly published research shows an alarming rise in
the rate of collapse of the massive Greenland ice-sheet as a
result of global warming. Scientists now believe the ice-sheet
is shrinking at the rate of ten meters a year, not the one meter
previously thought. If the entire ice-sheet melts, the resulting
flood waters would raise the level of global seas by seven
meters, submerging large areas of land, including sea-level
cities such as London. Greenland has the biggest ice-sheet in
the northern hemisphere: almost 772,000 square miles of ice
which is up to 1.9 miles thick, the base of which is below sea
level. http://news.scotsman.com/scitech.cfm?id=3D891712004

New York - Strange Neon Light UFO

STATEN ISLAND --The witness has been going to visit a relative's
house for BBQ nearly every weekend and had seen three sightings
on three different days. The witness states, '"The latest
occurred on July 17, 2004, at 5 PM, when we saw a sphere shaped
craft hovering over my house at nearly 2500 feet." It did not
move at all, and twice it was not visible and reappeared in the
same original location. It was equipped with a self luminous
white light like neon a fluorescent white. I did have my
camcorder with me, but was hesitant on filming at first because
it is very difficult to find small distant objects in the view
finder and LCD. When I first pointed the camcorder into the sky
and hit record I did not realize that the craft was in the
bottom left corner of the viewfinder so I tried to zoom in
thinking I did not yet find it. The other sightings were black
spheres. The other sightings were also with my sister, and I
again pointed out to look in the sky over the backyard which she
did and saw what she described as "birds" possibly out of
denial. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

New Jersey - Disc

EDGE WATER - The witness was riding in a car with my friend
along Water Street and reports seeing a curved UFO on July 17,
2004, when he noticed four lights that consistently lighted in
the sky. Basically, it's a little curved circle with four
lights, while two lights are on each curved side. These four
lights attracted me, because they constantly had a little
vibration, which is very impossible for a aircraft or a bug. And
the light vibration with those four light fly in a curved shape
from left to right. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director

BOUND BROOK -- The two objects flew from the right to the left,
stopped for about ten seconds and then flew slowly on July 17,
2004, at 12:30 PM. The witness was out looking at the stars
through a pair of binoculars, and saw a satellite, and then two
white Disc shaped UFOs went across the sky about half way and
stopped for about ten seconds and then left. He states, "There
was a screech that sounded really weird and the two crafts were
too slow for it to be a comet, asteroid or a plane." It was
about 12:30 in the morning when it had occurred in a clear sky.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Georgia - Tom Sheets Retires

John C. Thompson and I wish to commend former Police Chief Tom
Sheets who is retiring as as an outstanding Georgia MUFON
Director. John C. Thompson writes, from my perspective of a once
active UFO investigator, "Chief" Tom Sheets, with his departure,
leaves mighty large shoes to fill. His leadership as state
director for MUFON in Georgia was remarkable, attentive to
detail, and always steady. During his long tenure he turned what
before had only been amateur UFO investigator training into a
professional, no-nonsense, standardized, doctrine of intense
examination. His expertise in investigating came about from an
exemplary, quarter-of-a-century, career in Georgia law-
enforcement. Chief freely provided valuable hands-on experience
in investigative techniques--that many private security and
investigating firms would have eagerly paid for--to MUFON.
Despite having investigated many UFO cases before having the
honor of meeting Chief, I was immediately impressed with the
quality of his first case submitted to MUFON. The thoroughness
of his work provided many ideas which aided my own later
investigations. He was clearly a man that ufology badly needed.
MUFON looses its finest state director with his leave. For
active or future investigators take what he has taught and
shared with you and remember it well. I can assure you that
MUFON will never have another "Tom Sheets." I wish Chief well in
all his future endeavors. I know whatever he does, he will
excel. I also extend my best to long-time friend Mark Ausmus,
who has spent nearly three decades in ufology, in his new
leadership of MUFON of Georgia. Thanks to John C. Thompson"
gingerjohnt.nul

Note: Both Tom Sheets and John Thompson have been exceptionally
excellent investigators and Georgia State Directors. Tom was
able to take over ably from John and he will be sorely missed. I
sincerely thank him for all his great work and outstanding
leadership.

Ohio - Circle

PORTSMOUTH -- It started with one white circular object that
came out of almost nowhere and dropped above a tree on July 17,
2004, at 10:45 PM. The object(s) moved effortlessly and one came
very close to the ground, hovered and emitted beams. The others
just seem to float by. The tree is probably 30 feet high and the
craft hovered about 20 feet above that. It sent down four beams
of light to the street and just stayed there. The witness
states, "My girlfriend and I noticed darker squares or
rectangles towards the middle of the circle, and after hovering
with no noise for about 20 seconds it lifted slowly then bolted
out of sight.

A triangular shape also came into focus that was a pulsing red
color. When it got closer it turned bright white. We saw about
15 of these that came from the southeast. Five of the craft seem
to flow back and forth, and change altitudes the other ten just
flew straight. They were red at first and proceeded to change to
white. I tried to put it off as a helicopter but it just didn't
seem right. All the triangles were changing from red to white.
There were also small dark squares or rectangles. We called the
local police and guess what the craft stopped coming, so the
police thought we were crazy. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

LEWISBURG - Also on July 17, 2004, three friends were traveling
west on I-70 not far from Dayton at 3 AM, when they spotted an
illuminated triangular shaped object about a mile high.

FOSTORIA - George Ritter video taped two UFOs over a near by
farm the same day. Many of the UFOs appear to fly east or west
across Ohio and land near Fostoria. There are vast underground
caverns in the area that could be used by the UFOs.[]

Thanks to George Ritter

Tennessee - Disc

PARIS - The witness was sitting on a curb, and saw an object
sailing by at a pretty fast speed on July 14, 2004, at 9:43 PM.
He reports seeing one disc shaped object in bright daylight that
was moving at a fast pace and it was silver and reflecting
light. I am familiar with weather balloons and this was not one.
It was lower than an aircraft, low enough where I could see the
light reflecting and determine shape and color quite easily.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Iowa - Disappearing Lights

SIOUX CITY - On July 25, 2004, At first it was on solid bright
light, coming from the north, traveling pretty fast. It was a
solid light until it got above us, and then it stopped and was
flashing, or it moved away. This was really high up. Then we saw
about 6 more lights, one of them looked like a cop car in space,
circling the sky. All of the others ended up disappearing also,
but not as dramatically as the first one. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Nebraska - Fast Moving Light

CHADRON - - The witnesses saw a small light almost straight
above them that was solid white or white/yellow in color on July
24, 2004 at 10 PM. It started out very bright and slowly dimmed
as it traveled from west to east. It lasted only a few seconds,
but seemed to be traveling too fast to be a plane. There were
two commercial aircraft in the area and both were traveling
northeast to southwest. The light moved quickly from west to
east and slowly dimmed then disappeared. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Texas - Orbs and Rectangular UFO

DALLAS -- On July 19, 2004, I took about a dozen pictures of
different areas of the sky about 8:15 PM, but there was nothing
in any of them, except for one. I'm sending it to you. I took
this yesterday, 07-19-04, about 8:15 p.m. or so. Be for sure, I
will be doing this some more.

Picture can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1615

FORT WORTH TO DALLAS -- As I was driving eastbound, from, almost
directly in front of me, I saw just for maybe two seconds, a
white, possibly round object, disappear into a cloud on July 25,
2004. There are a lot of military aircraft in the area, so it
seems like I'm always looking up. I watched the cloud, nothing
came out.? Bear in mind, I was driving, probably about 30 mph,
so I had to keep one eye on the road. Usually military, and some
commercial aircraft, I would have heard, but I heard nothing. I
pulled over. I watched the cloud for ten minutes. Nothing came
out. I wear glasses, so I'm not above saying I could have been
mistaken. It just seemed so clear. The sky was clear with white
clouds on a blue sky. What I call a Simpson sky. I don't have
the ability to judge the distance of a cloud, but if I had to
guess I would guess ten miles away. I just came directly in and
entered "UFO" on my computer to see if maybe someone else saw
it.

HOUSTON - The witnesses state, "We were driving east down
memorial drive at 6:30 PM, between Kirkwood and Dairy Ashford
when my daughter and I saw a huge object in the sky on July 25,
2004." It had to have been larger then a football field. It was
white on top and light gray on the bottom. It was rectangular
shaped but the top was kind of rounded. Not like anything I have
ever seen before. It was pretty far away but it was huge.
Probably 5 times bigger then any plane I have seen in the sky.
It was also completely motionless. We turned back around to look
again because some trees got in the way but it was gone." Thanks
to Peter Davenport www.UFOCenter.com

Arizona - Numerous Orbs

PHOENIX - The witness reports, "I have noticed for the last
month or so that around 1 PM, I have been seeing the same orbs
at or around the same exact area in downtown Phoenix on
Saturdays. Well July 24, 2004, today was no exception...It is a
clear day today and the winds are coming in at a constant 10-
15mph from the south. I went to the roof of my parking garage
six floors up and spotted a white orb that was heading northeast
about 10 mph at 1,500 feet high. I called a friend and described
to him what I saw when out of nowhere the object came back and
headed in my direction. I video-taped this and noticed it was
going southwest against the wind and descending at a slow rate.
I saw two strings of orbs float down near the other object.
There were eight to ten objects in each bunch. They were
multicolored with reds, white, orange, blue and there was a
distortion around the objects like they were under water in the
sky. At first it was really hard to focus then I finally got in
on them and they were changing shapes and colors and barely
moving, kind of meandering in the general area. They were
starting to go through a thin haze and I couldn't focus in on
them anymore. The sighting started about 1:15 and I couldn't see
them anymore by 1:50 AM. These are the weirdest objects I have
ever seen. They were side by side the whole time as if shadowing
each other. To view the clips:
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1625

California - UFO Videos

LOS ANGELES -- It was around 11 PM, on July 23, 2004, and there
was a red and white blinking light in the sky that flew from one
place to another at the blink of an eye. It was circling around
the night sky until it flew higher and vanished. It was very
small and very high up and continued to circle around and around
very slowly. I kept on looking at it until it just went higher
and higher into the sky until I could no longer see it. Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

SAN BERNARDINO - The witnesses report seeing these objects
several times in the last two years. On July 25, 2004, the
witness reports seeing strange lights in the sky while driving
east at 12:15 AM. He states, "I saw one of them, they fly about
1000 feet up and glow orange or red, they just appear out of
nowhere for about two minutes and just float there, and then
disappear. There are some strange things going on here. Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

AUBURN -- On August 6, 2004, at 6:55 PM, p.m. local time I
witnessed three orbs of light coming out of the setting sun. I
was going for my evening walk in Auburn, CA when, I saw the
first of the three orbs coming out of the setting sun. I quickly
got out my binoculars which I carry with me and was able to
track and view the last of the three orbs. It was translucent
yet very white and bright. It was constantly changing shape,
going from circular to a dodecahedron shape with star or pointed
like protrusions coming out of the circumference and then back
to circular. All three orbs passed over me at great speed. They
looked like about 15,000 feet in altitude and after passing over
me they disappeared. One made a 90 degree turn to it's left in
an instant then traveled for approximately an inch at my arm's
length and disappeared rapidly.) Mark A. Olson, D.M.
www.sonorasightings.com drmarkolson.nul "

SONORA -- A new sighting of a flying triangle was videotaped on
August 8,2004! This object was videotaped on separate Sony
Camcorders, one on Hi-8 using a tripod, the other on a hand-held
Digital. (The digital video clip will be added to the later
today.) Video clips of the object have been posted at:
http://www.sonorasightings.com on the "JULY & AUGUST CLIPS"
page.

Washington - Triangles and Helicopters

TROUT LAKE -- James Gilliland reports, "We have had almost a
week of constant activity with as many as 13 eye witnesses at a
time." Several ships came in very low and expanded into a
brilliant light. Some side slipped back and forth changing
speeds exhibiting behavior unlike any conventional craft. There
was a triangle on August 6th around 10:30 PM which swooped down
banked and turned upward like a ghost ship. It was a bit larger
than my hand. Two out of thirteen saw it. It happened very
quickly. On August 8th at 9:50 PM, a ship came in low from the
southeast. It bust into a brilliant golden light dimming to
orange then white. It continued northwest and repeated the
signal yet this time it was brilliant white like a welding ark.
Three witnesses were present. The skies are getting busier.
www.eceti.org

Photo taken on April 29, 2003, of similar objects.

Thanks to James Gilliland

Canada -- Record Number Of UFO Sightings

OTTAWA -- Jim Bronskill in the Canadian Press reports, "From a
translucent, saucer-shaped object in British Columbia to
mysterious lights buzzing motorists in New Brunswick, Canadians
are on their way to reporting a record number of UFO sightings
this year. More than 400 stories of curious encounters were
filed through the end of July, compared with just over 300 by
this time last year, says Ufology Research of Manitoba, a group
that tracks reports of unidentified flying objects.

At this rate, the total for 2004 will surpass the current record
of 673 sightings reported last year, said Chris Rutkowski,
research co-coordinator for the Winnipeg-based organization. The
group receives reports directly by telephone and e-mail from
sister agencies that follow the phenomenon, and via federal
departments such as transport and national defense.

Rutkowski says, "I think there is a resurgence of interest in
space," he said yesterday. Dazzling mid-air maneuvers were a
feature of some of the more dramatic otherworldly episodes.

At a military base in Beaverbank, N.S., on April 23, three
people spotted several lights in the east, including a slow-
moving red one bobbing up and down. Suddenly, a second red light
swooped in, prompting the first one to climb upwards and fly
over it.

The Prairies seem to be a hotbed of unexplained activity. In
Alberta, 61 sightings occurred up to the end of July, compared
with 76 in all of last year. There were 50 in Manitoba, already
double the total for 2003, while 19 reports emerged from
Saskatchewan, topping last year's 13. In a widely reported
incident, the pilot of Prime Minister Paul Martin's plane
reported seeing a "very bright light" falling through the air,
with smoke trailing, while the aircraft passed over Suffield,
Alta., on March 21.

REGINA, SASKATCHEWAN -- The craft hovered in the eastern skies,
not too far from Regina Airport (YQR ); on July 25, 2004. It
seemed to align itself with the approaches to the airport and a
bright light would come on just like on night landings at the
airport. Then two big lights in an horizontal fashion came on.
Then the format changed with four or more lights to look like
the crescent moon. The craft spent about twenty minutes in my
view and then curved an exit to the southeast. I have two
digital images on my Olympus camera. Thanks to Brian Vike
www.hbccufo.com

Germany - Oval

KASSEL - On German Highway 44 the witness reports seeing a s
star flying towards Earth on July 18, 2004. After two or three
seconds it was moving into our atmosphere and became a big oval
object at quarter to midnight. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director www.UFOCenter.com

Australia -- Astronomer Sheds Light on 'UFO sightings'

UFO spotters will not need to report a red flare and a fast
moving white light in the sky over Darwin on Tuesday, 10 August
2004, - they have already been identified. The white light will
be the International Space Station, on one of its rare transits
that is clearly visible across the Top End. The red flash comes
from an Iridium flare, generated by one of 70 satellites
launched by the now-defunct phone company in the 1990s. Charles
Darwin University astronomy tutor Geoff Carr says the two
phenomenon are often mistaken for 'close encounters'.

"You'll see a tiny light and that will brighten up enormously,"
he said. "It looks almost like a flare, one of those out of a
flare gun, and then it will just disappear and people have rung
me up saying 'I'm sure I saw a UFO last night, it just skirted
into the atmosphere, then it took off', so you know what they're
talking about when they do contact you, because you know when
they're visible."
http://www.abc.net.au/darwin/news/200408/s1172651.htm

Were World War II Foo Fighters Real Or Not?

Columnist Fred Alexander in The Franklin Press writes, " Foo
Fighters was the name given to unexplained balls of glowing
light seen by U.S., British, and German pilots late in World War
Two in the skies over Europe. The Objects where also seen in the
Pacific by U.S. and Japanese soldiers Wally Hoffman recalled,
but "The mission to Schweinfurt was historically tough with huge
loss of planes and men, but somebody positively was out there
trying to help us. Soon after we had dropped are bombs on
Schweinfurt we began a shallow right turn away and from the
target and the black wall of flak to reform in a tight diamond
combat formation. As I looked to the east I could see several
groups advancing to the initial point to begin their bomb run. I
then observed one of the most baffling incidents of my life.
There I observed an enigma, which to this day still defies a
suitable explanation.

"I saw that the Bombers of the 384th Bomb Group under a
concentrated fighter attacks had turned on the initial point and
began their bomb run to the target. The persistent fighter
attacks suddenly ceased. I then noticed the reflection of what
appeared to be circular type objects all around the bomber
formation. There were absolutely no German fighters that
ordinarily seemed to swarm around and through the formations
with their deadly 20mm cannons. Where were they? It was as if
the 384th Bomb Group was flying in a vacuum.

Later I learned the pilots and several crews in the nose and top
turret reported a cluster of discs in their flight path and
apparently closing on the bombers. The discs in clusters to more
silver colored. They were easily seen by the B-17 crewmembers,
gliding down slowly in a uniform cluster. One fortress closed
rapidly with a cluster of these discs, however the pilot was
unsuccessful in trying to evade the discs. He reported at
debriefing that although his right wing went through the cluster
there was absolutely no effect on the engines or the plane
surfaces. The pilot further stated that one of the discs was
heard to strike that tail assembly. None of the crew heard or
witnessed any explosion as a result. About 20 ft. from the discs
the crewmembers sighted a mass of black debris of varying sizes
also in clusters of about four feet. Other aircraft were
observed flying through the discs with no apparent damage. Other
discs were sighted but they were unable to determine where they
had originated," concluded Hoffman." Thanks to The Franklin
Press and Cal Cotrell

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   Aug > Aug 12

                        In-Home Abduction Detection?

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 21:09:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:14:04 -0400
Subject: In-Home Abduction Detection?


Hi -

I'd like to re-ask this question, because if an answer can be
had, I'm sure it would be of considerable interest to all
Listers.

I'm guessing it might have been in 2002, on the Strange Days...
Indeed progran, one particular experiment had been then recently
set up to verify the reality of abductions. I wish I could
remember details but unfortunately I was on the job at the time
and wasn't taking notes.

The experiment was designed to monitor the home environment of
abductees in such a way that anomalous changes would show up
clearly, yet no actual audio or video footage was to be
recorded. Quantities like temperature, light level,
electromagnetic field strength, and sound intensity were
continuously monitored and recorded on a computer. The lack of
audio and video taping was to respect the privacy of the
volunteer abductee.

The experimenters were to analyze patterns versus time of day
which occurred normally, and compare the readings taken during
reported abductions. An experimenter on the show stated that it
was quite easy to get a feel for the routine in the abductee's
home by simply using the non- privacy-invasive parameters, and
was looking forward to readings during the next abduction
experience.

I believe one such instrument cluster had actually been placed
in one abductee's home.

One of the UFO organizations - might have been a chapter of
MUFON but I can't remember - was hosting this series of
experiments. Does anyone remember this experiment?

A while back, I asked the List whatever became of this
experiment. One person replied and gave me the email address of
someone he though might have been involved, but I got no reply.

This type of experiment seems to have the same potential for
excellent progress for abductions as passive radar for the craft
themselves, and it seems a shame that no one is able to remember
it, and what became of this effort.

Also - it seems like something worth trying _anew_, even if the
previous program can't be recalled. What a shame that such a
promising experiment has apparently vanished in to thin air! (A
shame and more than a little suspicious!)


Eleanor White







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                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 426

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:36:41 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:15:58 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 426


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 426 -  26 JUNE 2004

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

- New Issue of CISU Journal
- First Chiumiento's Book
- A UFO Guide To "Taken" in Newsstands


NEW ISSUE OF CISU JOURNAL

Issue No. 28 has hit the stands of "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica" (UFO  Journal of Ufological
Information), the four-monthly periodical from the Italian
Center for UFO Studies.

On the cover: =93The Official History of Ufology in Italy,=94
effectively semi-monographic in theme, featuring articles on the
founding of the Italian Air Force UFO Committee in 1978, the
case of the flying saucer over the presidential compound of
Castel Porziano in 1963, and the pursuit of a UFO by a Navy
helicopter.

Among the other topics: the phenomenon of =93ghost rockets=94 and
the inception of modern ufology; new witnesses in the Valentich
case; investigations into sightings; an overview and the
statistics on the Italian case reports of 2003; and also the
latest newsflashes, CISU activities, book reviews and debates.

The journal (sent to members of the Italian Center for UFO
Studies at no cost) is available at Librerie Feltrinelli
bookstores or via mail subscription (3 issues: 15 Euro in Italy;
20 Euro abroad); free by exchange with similar publications.

[Report by Gian Paolo Grassino; www.cisu.org/riu25_28.htm#28]


FIRST CHIUMIENTO'S BOOK

Fresh off the presses is the first book by Antonio Chiumiento,
entitled "Ho le prove - La verit=E0 sulla presenza degli alieni"
(I Have the Proof  - The Truth about the Presence of Aliens)  25
years of investigations in the Triveneto area in the words of
the noted Pordenone ufologist, collected and recounted by the
writer Alessio Pasquini.

The volume (published by Biblioteca dell'immagine in Pordenone)
totals 168 pages, featuring illustrations and selling for 12
Euro.

The book is available through our e-commerce website
(www.upiar.com) for 13 Euro (20% discount for CISU members
only).

[Il Gazzettino, 25 June; collaboration by Renzo Cabassi and
Gildo Persone']


A UFO GUIDE TO "TAKEN" IN NEWSSTANDS

Beginning July 1st, a magazine will be available in bookstores
at 5 Euro and totaling 98 pages, titled "Capire Taken: Rapiti ET
e UFO - Dal serial TV di Spielberg alla realta'" (Understanding
Taken: ET and UFO Abductees - From the Spielberg TV Series to
Reality).

It's a monograph in the series =93Speciali del mistero" (Mystery
Specials), appearing alongside the journal "UFO Notiziario" by
Roberto Pinotti and divided this time into two sections: the
first part (27 pages) is devoted to the phenomenon of alien
abductions, flanked by and taking its cue from the similarly-
titled television series airing over the last few weeks on
Italia 1 TV; and the second part (71 pages) concerns a
photographic and iconographic dossier reviewing the years 1933
through 2003.

[Report by Nico Conti]


- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free
phone/Internet information service on UFOs edited
weekly by  Edoardo Russo for the Italian Center for
UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici),
available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294,
or by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website
at http://www.cisu.org/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto,
Freelance Italian>English Translator & Proofreader
44 Bickford Ave., Apt. 2
Revere, MA 02151
USA

Tel.: ++1.781.485.1683
FAX: ++1.781.485.1684
E-mail: gpresto.nul
Webpage: http://www.proz.com/translator/723



- - -

(c) 2004 by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe.nul)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 30.78.63 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu.nul
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org









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   Aug > Aug 12

             'Keel' Investigates Body In Pascagoula Mobile Home

From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:25:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:21:39 -0400
Subject: 'Keel' Investigates Body In Pascagoula Mobile Home


Talk about "hot names" with weird links to UFO history... try
this one from today's news.....

John Keel and Pascagoula, in an article by a Reeves... and the
location, a trailer, a la' Jim Brandon!! What will be revealed
in the name of the victim?

Loren

-----

Source: Pascagoula Mississippi Press

http://www.CopycatEffect.com

08-12-04

Body found in mobile home

By Mollie Reeves
The Mississippi Press

MERRILL -- A 911 call to the George County Sheriff's Department
Wednesday afternoon led to the discovery of a body in a mobile
home in the Merrill Community.

The call came in about 3 p.m. Wednesday, according to
Investigator John Keel. Deputies responded to the call by going
to a residence located at 206 Boyd Smith Road where the body was
found.

The cause of death has not been released pending the results of
an autopsy, Keel said.

The name of the deceased is also being withheld pending
notification of family members, Keel said. No other details have
been released at this time.







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   Aug > Aug 12

                        Dr. Salla At Sky Island Ranch

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:03:46 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:24:02 -0400
Subject: Dr. Salla At Sky Island Ranch


Here you go, Earthlings,

Follow the link. This is the coup de grace, that last piece of
information which seals my position that the "exopolitics" of
Michael Salla is nothing more than a 21st century contactee
cult.

http://www.joanocean.com/contactsem.html

E.T. Contact at Sky Island Ranch August 8 - 20, 2004. Happening.
Now. Just think - you could have been there, experiencing it,
with Joan "Ocean", the seminar leader, and Michael Salla, the
guest of honor.

In the words of Joan "Ocean": "Our lives change for the better
as we experience wholeness, unconditional love and universal
wisdom."

$2450 for 13 days.

See: http://www.joanocean.com/Seminars.html

My guess is that airfare is _not_ included.

I wouldn't be suprised if the Ancient of Days, himself, was
there - kicking back with a Margarita and catching some
rays.....


Best,

Rod Brock


=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------







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             Re: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:49:28 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:28:49 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone - Gevaerd


>From: Billy Booth <Ufocasebook.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 23:34:46 EDT
>Subject: Re: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone

>Just a note to let you all know that I rec'd info on the Brazil
>cellphone case this morning, and translated the details, and
>enhanced the images. You can access it here:

>http://ufocasebook.com/brazilcellufo.html


Very well, Billy. Many thanks. Maybe you would like to post, on
your site, the 15=B4 video the man made with his cell phone, after
he stopped the car and crossed a small field with trees? I sent
it to you.


A. J.









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             Re: UFO photographed With A Celular Phone - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:57:14 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:30:26 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO photographed With A Celular Phone - Gevaerd


>From: Tim Shell <shell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 14:08:57 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO photographed With A Celular Phone

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul >
>>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:20:04 -0300
>>Subject: UFO photographed With A Celular Phone

>>Possible UFO photographed with a celular phone

>>On August 3rd three men were on Anhanguera Highway, Sao Paulo
>>State, when they saw something unusual over a field. They
>>stopped the car and 2 of the men jumped over the fence to get a
>>little closer. One of them had a modern cell phone with him and
>>took a picture of a strange, cylinder object a few meters above
>>the ground.

>Because of the reflection, I have to assume the photographer
>stayed in the car.

Actually, he and a fellow stopped the car and walked about 200 m
through a small wood. It was only when he reached the other side
that he took the picture. He filmed 14'' of the crossing with
his cell.

>>Under the object, which remained hoovering for 30 minutes and
>>emmiting a sound that seemed like "several engines working
>>together", some dust could be see been lifting into the air.

>I don't know. It looks very mirage-like to me, but it would with
>my debunking hat on. It also looks like a small rain cloud,
>although the rest of the photo doesn't suggest such a thing
>could develop there. Interesting, though.

A friend of mine, UFO photo analyst, also thinks it could be a
mirage, but nothing is conclusive yet. The strange thing is that
the object was emmiting some sound.

>>If confirmed genuine, it could be one of the first ever images
>>of a UFO taken by a cell-phone and confirmed.

>What about that dude in Ireland a month or so ago? Did I imagine
>that?

I haven=B4t info about that. Now I do. Very interesting indeed.

A. J.







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   Aug > Aug 12

                Russians Claim To Have Found Remains Of Craft

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:43:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:36:11 -0400
Subject: Russians Claim To Have Found Remains Of Craft


Source: Xin Hua Net

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-08/12/content_1766126.htm

08-12-04

Russians Claim To Have Found Remains Of Alien Craft

BEIJING (Xinhuanet) -- Russian scientists said they have
discovered the wreck of an alien device at the site of an
unexplained explosion in Siberia almost a hundred years ago,
China Daily reported today, citing the Interfax news agency as
the source.

The scientists, who belong to the Tunguska space phenomenon
public state fund, said they found the remains of an extra-
terrestrial device that allegedly crashed near the Tunguska
river in Siberia in 1908.

Their findings also include a 50-kilogram (110-pound) rock which
they have sent to the Siberian city of Krasnoyarsk for analysis.

The Tunguska blast, in a desolate part of Siberia, remains one
of the 20th century's biggest scientific mysteries.

On June 30, 1908, what is widely believed to be a meteorite
exploded a few kilometers above the Tunguska river, in a blast
that was felt hundreds of kilometers (miles) away and devastated
over 2,000 square kilometers of Siberian forest. Enditem







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                Re: UFO Photographed With A Cellular Phone -

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:02:10 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:38:17 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Photographed With A Cellular Phone -


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 19:00:37 -0300
>Subject: Re: UFO Photographed With A Cellular Phone

<snip>

>>The image is at:

>>http://www.ufo.com.br/index.php?arquivo=notComp.php&id=457

>Nothing there A.J. Just gave me the text page. It truncated the
>URL which I added and still only the text page re. info and an


Sorry about that Don. I may have confused the URL. Please note
that Billy Booth <Ufocasebook.nul>has just translated the
record and posted in his site:

http://ufocasebook.com/brazilcellufo.html


A. J.






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                Re: Factsheet On Salla's Termination - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:12:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:39:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Factsheet On Salla's Termination - Kaeser


>From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
>To: Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:42:26 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Factsheet On Salla's Termination

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:26:16 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Dr. Salla

>>Can anyone find an article on his [Salla's] dismissal, if
>>that's the case. I can't seem to find any reference to it on the
>>Internet.

>There's a factsheet on Dr. Salla's termination posted at his
>very own website:

>http://exopolitics.org/PA-termination-factsheet.htm

>It begins:

>"On August 3, 2004, I was interviewed on George Noory's Coast to
>Coast and was asked about the status of my present association
>with the Center for Global Peace, American University,
>Washington DC. I informed George that as a result of my
>exopolitics research, the program I had been developing, the
>Peace Ambassador Program, was summarily terminated in late
>April, 2004..."

Thanks Rod,

I've written to the PR office at American to see if they have
any information on Dr. Salla's status and when it changed.

Of course, terminating an educational program is not quite the
same as dismissing a Professor, but Salla is painting it that
way.

I'm sure that he'll find an audience to try and convince of his
views.


Steve






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                  Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II - Brock

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:14:41 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:41:05 -0400
Subject: Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II - Brock


>From: Michael Brownlee <michael.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 19:52:04 -0700
>Subject: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II

>Where does Bassett himself stand on the election? "I don�t
>care who�s president," he says, "disclosure has to happen."

What a pathetic viewpoint.

While clearly standing outside the mainstream in the essence of
his views, Stephen Basset shares one characteristic with his
fellow Americans of more mundane outlook: he's single-minded,
unable (or unwilling, for whatever reason) to focus on more than
one issue at a time.

With the right combination of circumstances, not caring who's
president and caring only about "disclosure," could conceivably
be Mr. Basset's undoing.

He probably hasn't thought of that, though.

Rod Brock


=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------





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               Re: Factsheet On Salla's Termination - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:19:08 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:02:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Factsheet On Salla's Termination - Friedman


>From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
>To: Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:42:26 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Factsheet On Salla's Termination

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:26:16 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Dr. Salla

>>Can anyone find an article on his [Salla's] dismissal, if
>>that's the case. I can't seem to find any reference to it on the
>>Internet.

>There's a factsheet on Dr. Salla's termination posted at his
>very own website:

>http://exopolitics.org/PA-termination-factsheet.htm

>It begins:

>"On August 3, 2004, I was interviewed on George Noory's Coast to
>Coast and was asked about the status of my present association
>with the Center for Global Peace, American University,
>Washington DC. I informed George that as a result of my
>exopolitics research, the program I had been developing, the
>Peace Ambassador Program, was summarily terminated in late
>April, 2004..."

>I had admonished myself when this exopolitics stuff surfaced
>that it was only a matter of time before Salla (and possibly
>Webre) would be making appearances on George Noory. I make no
>particular claims of prophet-hood, however, since it's a
>foregone conclusion that if it's nuts, it's gonna be on
>Coast-to-Coast.


I am glad you are not suggesting that all who appear on the show
are nuts. And surely not all nuts appear on the show.

Frankly, I have been very pleased by the response my appearances
have brought forth. And surely you don't consider Dr. Seth
Shostak, of the SETI Institute, a nut? He may be a SETI Cultist,
but even I don't consider him a nut.

If you want to improve the quality of the guest list, get more
of the good guys to go on. I hope to appear with Frank Feschino
Jr,, the author of an important new book about the Flatwoods
(WV) Monster UFO case of September, 1952, as soon as the pub
date is set. I wrote the foreword and the Epilogue.

In a similar sort of situation,  there will be a huge Paraworld
Expo at the very large Los Angeles Convention Center, October
21-24. They are expecting 250,000 people. I will be doing 7
different lectures, workshops, etc. Will I be standing behind
everybody there? Of course not. Would the world be better off
and there be greater appreciate of Ufology if guys like
me boycotted these events? I don't think so.


Stan Friedman
http://www.stanfriedman.com






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               Re: Explorers Find UFO Fragments In Tunguska -

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:32:10 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:04:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Explorers Find UFO Fragments In Tunguska -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 05:16:38 -0700
>Subject: Explorers Find UFO Fragments In Tunguska

>Explorers Find UFO Fragments In Tunguska Meteorite Area

>Source: [RAG]-->Pravda<--[RAG]

>http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/378/13705_tunguska.html
----------

Wow, that was quick. We've already established that "Pravda" is
a sensationalist rag, but for posterity, here's my former
commentary to the announcement on July 29 that this "team" was
leaving to find evidence to prove that the Tungus event was
caused by a UFO:

>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:53:14 EDT
>Subject: Team To Study Tunguska To Prove It Was UFO

>Pravda: Team To Study Famed Tungus Event To Prove It Was A UFO

>This story states that a scientific team lit out for Tungus
>last week to gather 'evidences' that the famed blast was not
>caused  by a meteorite but a UFO.

Morons. Make a sensational hypothesis completely opposed to the
body of evidence gathered through serious scientific research
over the last century or so, and go tramping out to the Tungusk
to "prove" that "hypothesis." Probability of claims of success:
High. Probability of actual success: Unknown. Probably zero.

>This ought to be fun to keep an eye on.

Naw. Bring me a bucket. <:-O[r.a.l.p.h.]

Best,
Rod


=====
THE MAGONIA EXCHANGE LIST
Collecting and sharing accounts
of anomalous aerial phenomena
from antiquity up to 1947.
http://nocturnal_lights.tripod.com/magoniax
----------
THE RETURN TO MAGONIA PROJECT
Parent project to the Magonia Exchange
List.
http://anomalies.bravepages.com
----------
ALIENS ATE MY BUICK
Frank, unapologetic commentary
on matters of ufological
import.
http://aamb.blogspot.com/
----------







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              Re: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:32:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:05:49 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone - King


>From: Billy Booth <Ufocasebook.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 23:34:46 EDT
>Subject: Re: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone

>Just a note to let you all know that I rec'd info on the Brazil
>cellphone case this morning, and translated the details, and
>enhanced the images. You can access it here:

>http://ufocasebook.com/brazilcellufo.html

Billy,

Good work, and fast! Kudos!

First impression... very square to the ground, as if sitting on
it. Very dark... darker than the nearby shadows. Either not as
far away as it looks or is of a very very dark material.

The image clearly exhibits 4 �legs� lit from the right. There is
perhaps a 5th in the center, but it appears obscured if it
exists. These could be thrust or exhaust lines, as the pixels
would lend a rectilinear shape to anything at this
magnification.

I imagine that a large canopy with no sides might look like
this. From a good distance, the undulations of the fabric in the
breeze could even make it appear to move closer or further away.
A canopy intended as shelter would generally not be made in a
heat-absorbing color, though. The sounds noted would be
indicative of large air-moving fans which would not be out of
place under such a canopy. Even the sound of such fans would
fluctuate in volume with the breeze, at a distance.

Drat that there is no photo of the object further above the
ground! Or from a more revealing angle.

If something like this had been meandering around a field in my
�hood, we�d be neck deep in photos. :)


Kyle







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                     Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:42:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:08:47 -0400
Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For


>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 02:14:20 -0700
>Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

>>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:47:32 -0500
>>Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 23:27:41 EDT
>>>Subject: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

>>>http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/index.html

>>>Interesting look at how the mainstream presents it's look into
>>>ET research.

<snip>

>Hello fellow Listerions,

>I still hope this lList remains above partisan politics as we
>come closer to the election. Please don't send me partisan
>fodder offlist.

>While watching CNN's "Are We Alone" program I noticed that they
>showed the Weekly World News issue that had the headline of
>"ALIEN BABY FOUND ON MARS". It showed Mars landscape in the
>background. The foreground was composed of a dying African child
>with protruding ribs, a big distended belly, and a head that
>appeared huge next to its shrunken body. It was topped off with
>large and protruding eyeballs staring at the reader.

>That is really the sickest of tabloid exploitation! Take a dying
>child who by now most likely passed away from starvation and try
>to palm it off as a Mars alien baby.  The publisher needs a
>shave with BS rubbed all over his face for shaving cream.

>Years ago I posted to the List that in MUFON LA we had a poor
>fellow who used to hold up that tabloid while believing every
>word of its BS. We were gentle with him because he was mentally
>disabled. I sure hope he did not believe the Mars alien baby
>lies issue.


Josh,

I think the likelihood of some sort of 'October Surprise' far
outstrips that of an ET landing on the White House lawn.

One side expects it, and the other prays for it.

I think any candidate in GWs position would pray for one, too.

Democrat or Republican.

Tabloids are in existence for the express purpose of generating
publicity. You have performed admirably as their pawn.

Your outrage is their investment, and your outcry is their
income.

Ignored, they go away.


Kyle






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                          Re: ETH Modeling - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:45:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:20:00 -0400
Subject: Re: ETH Modeling - Clark


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 05:58:38 EDT
>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:47:17 -0500
>>Subject: Re: ETH Modeling

<snip>

>>Those of you interested in Michael D. Swords's JUFOS paper,
>>a major (maybe _the_ major) scientific look at the ETH in the UFO
>>literature, should contact

>>http://www.cufos.org/pubs3.html

>>or write CUFOS at:

>>2457 West Peterson Avenue,
>>Chicago, Illinois
>>60659

>>The full citation is Swords, "Science and the Extraterrestrial
>>Hypothesis in Ufology." Journal of UFO Studies 1 (1989): 67-102.

>>A fascinating follow-up piece is:

>>"Astronomers, the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis, and the United
>>States Air Force at the Beginning of the Modern UFO Phenomenon."
>>JUFOS 4 (1992): 79-129.

>>In my judgment these are essential reading to any serious
>>student of the UFO phenomenon.

>Guess what? I too am a "serious student of the UFO phenomenon"
>because I _do_ in fact have copies of both issues of JUFOS and
>did indeed read both years ago long before I received my own
>copies (my thanks to a very gracious source who shall remain
>nameless). They were in storage and I didn't think I had them
>but I did. And your very impressive-looking "full citations" are
>both wrong, because they are _not_ Volumes 1 and 4 but _New
>Series_ Volumes 1 and 4.

Oh, for crissake. In the encyclopedia bibliography these volumes
are cited as "new series" - three issues of an old, long
forgotten, differently formatted, all-in-all inferior JUFOS were
published in the 1970s - but so what? UFO UpDates is not exactly
a formal medium, and I was typing quickly. No apologies are
herein offered.

Beyond that, this discussion has grown too tedious for further
comment, so I'll just recommend the Swords papers again - they
are, let me repeat, excellent and important - and sign off.


Jerry Clark






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             Re: Chances Of Aliens Finding Earth Disappearing -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 18:08:34 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:23:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Chances Of Aliens Finding Earth Disappearing -


>From: William Wise <w.wise.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:50:44 -0400
>Subject: Chances Of Aliens Finding Earth Disappearing

>Chances Of Aliens Finding Earth Disappearing According To Frank
>Drake

>Basically, Drake sais its OK we haven't heard radio signals from
>other worlds because radio is only around for a short time until
>it's replaced by fiber optics and the like.  If the aliens are
>like us they will quickly evolve away from radio communications
>so we should be looking for something else like laser pulses.

>(Can SETI even detect radio leakage yet?  I thought they could
>only hear directed transmissions.  Anyway...)

>Will

>-----

>Source: New Scientist News Service

>http://www.newscientist.com/news/print.jsp?id=ns99996255

>Chances of aliens finding Earth disappearing

>15:59 09 August 04

<snip>


>David L Chandler

It is truly amazing that the SETI cultists keep insisting there
is nobody coming here now and that basically no aliens have ever
been here.

Seth Shostak tried to give me a hard time for saying SETI
Specialists have said said aliens won't know we are here until
they pick up our TV signals. I had mentioned Lawrence Maxwell
Krauss as having said that there wasn't enough time for an alien
group to pick up our signals and get somebody to Roswell by
1947. I give the exact quote in my next MUFON Journal column, an
open letter to Seth, which I will be posting on my website soon.

Since we already know how to go to the stars, even though we
have had radio for only a century and satellites for less than
half a century, it seems to me very reasonable, in view of the
UFO evidence, that there have been  alien travellers all over
our local galactic neighborhood for millions of years at least.

I guess the SETI Cultists can't believe that anybody coming here
wouldn't want to talk to them. They will always find ways for
justifying continuing a Silly Effort To Investigate by listening
for primitive radio signals and looking for primitive laser
signals rather than examining the evidence we are being
visited.Psychologists call this DENIAL.They are not really
interested in ET Intelligence... only in ET signals. How sad.


Stan Friedman






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                  Re: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:04:51 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:26:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI - Friedman


>From: William Wise <w.wise.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:06:55 -0400
>Subject: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI

>Paul Davies proposes searching for signs of alien tampering with
>our genes.

>Will

>-----

>Source: The Sydney Morning Herald

>http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/08/09/1092022404578.html

>08-09-04

>Space isn't the only place to look for proof of extraterrestrial
>life, writes Paul Davies.

<snip>

Davies has been writing this kind of stuff for years. As with
the SETI cultists, he says look everywhere but at the evidence.
Look to the sky. Look to the DNA, but don't look at the
evidence. They seem to think that all that matters are exciting
theories. Don't bother me with the facts, my mind is made up.
What the public doesn't know, we won't tell them.

There ought to be a great comedy for the stage in this
somewhere. Don't go out to the barn to count how many teeth the
horse has, theorize. To paraphrase Tom Lehrer, let no one else's
theory evade your eyes. Theorize.

This is a parody of science.


Stan Friedman






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                Inevitable Tunguska Backlash From Scientists

From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 18:21:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:27:41 -0400
Subject: Inevitable Tunguska Backlash From Scientists


I'm having fun watching this story spread and see where it turns
up. I agree with the following two reports that the chance that
actual "alien" technology has been recovered is slim at best,
but it will be interesting to see what was found out there on
the blasted heath.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/tunguska_event_040812.html

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5686713/


Dante







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                Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:58:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:31:49 -0400
Subject: Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II - Lehmberg


>From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:14:41 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II

>>From: Michael Brownlee <michael.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 19:52:04 -0700
>>Subject: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II

>>Where does Bassett himself stand on the election? "I don't
>>care who's president," he says, "disclosure has to happen."

>What a pathetic viewpoint.

Now lets look at your reactionary and unconstructive one.

>While clearly standing outside the mainstream in the essence of
>his views,

I'm astonished that you could lead your debate with this. You
propound this like you thought a mainstream, such as it is, was
acceptable. If the mainstream 'was' the mainstream you'd have
the beginnings of a stronger but still failing argument Mr.
Brock... but the mainstream, as it is inflicted upon us, does
not have the verity you would airily assign. Instead, it is an
ongoing propaganda, a fiction, a convenience for the
administrators of it. Mr. Bassett can hardly be taken to task
and disparagingly criticized for recognizing that he is, and we
all are, mere objects of the crassest kinds of duplicitous
manipulation, marginaliztion, and oppression. Lies, fear, and
loathing. Myself, I abhor the mainstream as an artful lie, a
pointed disrespect for the individual, and a tool of the few
against the many. It's not a 'good' thing, Sir.

>Stephen Basset shares one characteristic with his
>fellow Americans of more mundane outlook: he's single-minded,
>unable (or unwilling, for whatever reason) to focus on more than
>one issue at a time.

That's a laugh. We're only criticized on our single-mindedness
when we're not being criticized for our lack of focus, short
attention span, and inability to see a problem in depth.

>With the right combination of circumstances, not caring who's
>president and caring only about "disclosure," could conceivably
>be Mr. Basset's undoing.

I think you missed Mr. Bassett's point, Mr. Brock. It _doesn't_
matter who the president is or even if we don't presently have a
president - which we don't in my opinion. It doesn't matter who
_your_ prime minister, warlord, or tribal chief is, either. At
the whim of sociopaths, you and I exist at the convenience of
the few in our non-elected leadership, cling to our illusion of
real freedom, and hope we escape their notice as we eat, sleep,
and breed. It's the creative stuff outside the box that provides
the satisfactions beyond eating, sleeping, and breeding.

It's disclosure that is the cure for all that monotonous
futility of E,S & B, Mr. Brock. Disclosure _does_ have to
happen. It's disclosure that will revalidate culture and society
because it will of needs be based more on reality than is
presently endured. We walk the edge to think a different
thought, qualify our freedoms, aspire to touch truth on the
face. Your naivet=E9 with regard to that could be your undoing and
eventual despair, Sir.

>He probably hasn't thought of that, though.

Well - he's thought past his bias, deigned to look behind the
curtain, stepped out of the box, read from more of the forbidden
index... It may be his thinking is well past what little
original thinking you display here. It _may_ be he spreads his
arms and soars to more of the infinite, leaving far behind him
what you perceive far before you. Though, you probably hadn't
thought of that.

.=B7=B4=A8=A8)) -:=A6:-
   =B8.=B7=B4 .=B7=B4=A8=A8))
  ((=B8=B8.=B7=B4 ..=B7=B4 alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  -:=A6:- ((=B8=B8.=B7=B4-:=A6:-... www.AlienView.net







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                                   Grenada

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 18:30:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:33:13 -0400
Subject: Grenada


After having brought up the subject of Grenada in an off-hand
way, I did a little additional reading and I feel I should
clarify my previous comment. The effort by Grenada to bring the
subject of UFOs before the United Nations happened two coups
d'etat before the invasion by the United States.

A brief outline of its recent history is at:

http://www.iexplore.com/dmap/Grenada/History

Eric Gairy, deposed in coup #1, was a leader of the Grenadian
independence movement but had gotten the reputation of a corrupt
tyrant by the time of the coup, which happened shortly after the
UFO business.

Whatever crimes Gairy was guilty of, at least he did provide Dr.
Allen Hynek the opportunity to speak to the UN General Assembly
about UFOs:

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc757.htm

Hynek's closing statement was:

"The UFO phenomenon, as studied by my colleagues and myself,
bespeaks the action of some form of intelligence... but whence
this intelligence springs, whether it is truly extra-
terrestrial, or bespeaks a higher reality not yet recognized by
science, or even if it be in some way or another a strange
psychic manifestation of our own intelligence, is much the
question. We seek your help, Mr. Chairman, in assisting
scientists, and particularly those already associated with the
many formal and informal investigative organizations around the
world, by providing a clearing house procedure whereby the work
already going on globally can be brought together in a serious,
concentrated approach to this most outstanding challenge to
current science."

It's too bad the UN didn't act on Hynek's proposal, but the UN
has a hard time getting its act together about anything.







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                Even Drudge Report Highlights Tunguska Story

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:32:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:35:12 -0400
Subject: Even Drudge Report Highlights Tunguska Story


I was suprised and not suprised that the popular website
www.drudgereport.com highlighted the Tunguska story today,
08-12-04

Of course it linked to space.com's story focusing on the
skepticism. Which ain't a bad thing considering the numerous
hoaxes perpetrated over the years but what was funny is that the
first scientific quote used in the story is:

"a rather stupid hoax,"

Mind you there's far better scientific information buried lower
in the story, but the first quote is " a rather stupid hoax," ?

Reminds me of the old Grade B " Plan 9 From Outer Space "
dialogue.

Sure the Russian claims are fantastic and it's going to take a
helluva lot of evidence, no... proof.


Best,

Greg






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   Aug > Aug 13

                        Roswell Debris & 'Smart Skin'

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:37:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:36:57 -0400
Subject: Roswell Debris & 'Smart Skin'


Roswell Debris Reports & Popular Science's Story On 'Smart Skin'

Saw this story at Popular Science. I giggled as it reminds me of
the stories from the Roswell incident about material that
behaved in a similar manner.

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/article/0,12543,676853,00.html


Best,

Greg







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                     Alien Toy Mistaken For Human Foetus

From: Geoff Dittman <ggd.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:14:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:42:40 -0400
Subject: Alien Toy Mistaken For Human Foetus


From Urban Legends e-mail List:

-----

From: Brian Chapman <wt046.nul>
To: urban legends <urban-legends.nul>

I've got reports from as far back as Nov 1999 of toy aliens being mistaken
for human fetuses.

http://www.sunderlandtoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=1107&ArticleID=8296
62

Sunderland Today - 28 July 2004

Alien toy mistaken for human foetus

Police sealed off part of a busy Sunderland street after reports
a human foetus had been discovered on the steps of the Mowbray
Park Hotel.

But a closer examination by forensic experts revealed the
suspicious bundle was something out-of-this world - a plastic
alien toy.

A cordon was put up around the city centre hotel at 1pm
yesterday after a member of the public reported seeing a human
foetus covered in paper on the steps.

Paramedics were called to Toward Road and reported the find to
police. Inspector John Freeman, from Sunderland Police, said:
"There are certain procedures we have to follow and we cordoned
off a small part of the pavement in order to preserve the scene.

"Scenes of crimes officers and CID supervision were then
notified and we waited for medical advice before deciding
exactly what to do." Bemused shopkeepers and members of the
public watched as forensic experts in white suits examined the
10-inch long bundle.

Inspector Freeman added: "Scenes of crimes officers removed the
small object which turned out to be a plastic-alien baby.

"It had been partly covered in paper which may have added to the
confusion surrounding what exactly it was."

This is not the first time the toys have sparked a major police
alert.

In February, a police cordon was thrown around a Shotton
Colliery house at Bruce Glazier Terrace after the discovery of
one of the toys. The synthetic alien babies are sold in their
own slime and are foetus-shaped.

-----

http://www.barnsleytoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=86&ArticleID=836238

Barnsley Today [UK] - 10 Aug 2004

'Dead foetus' in bag is alien baby toy, say police

A major police investigation was launched in Barnsley after
reports that a dead foetus had been found in a bag.

Uniformed officers, scenes of crime experts and even a top
police surgeon were drafted in and CID put on alert after a
former ambulance driver called the police to tell them of her
gruesome find.

But after the major scramble of all the police resources it was
discovered it was in fact not a dead foetus - but an alien baby
toy!

Today police insisted they had reacted properly to the
situation, but admitted now they had identified the 2.60 "Alien
baby in an Egg" toy, they were not listing the find in their 'X-
Files'.

The call to police was made just after 6pm on Sunday night when
the woman told officers she had found a bag in the Blacker Hill
area which contained what appeared to be a dead foetus. She said
she could see tiny fingers and that the 5 -6in long foetus was a
green colour. An acting Sgt went to the address and he confirmed
that he could make out what looked like two small legs and an
arm and the full police operation was swung into action.

Inspector Mark Spooner said: "It is very easy to be wise with
hindsight, but at the time we thought we were dealing with what
could have been a very serious situation.

"Scenes of crime officers were called out along with a police
surgeon, and CID were notified that we could be dealing with
what could have been a major investigation.

"We have to follow correct procedures when something like this
is reported to us and we ensure we preserve any potential
evidence."

-----

http://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=122940

North-West Evening Mail [UK] - 10 Aug 2004

ALIEN TOY SPARKS DUMPED BABY ALERT

A supermarket car park was cordoned off after a child's toy was
mistaken for a dumped foetus.

Dalton Co-op staff were distressed by the find on Saturday.

A nurse doing some shopping alerted store manager, Joanne Dunne,
that she had found a foetus lying in the Market Street
supermarket's car-park, close to the recycling bins.

Ms Dunne said: "She said that it was about 12 weeks old. When we
touched it with a stick it looked like a baby because its skin
was all squashy. The nurse said it looked fresh."

Staff cordoned off the area and called police at 11.25am. Police
officers and CID were called to the Co-op - but they still
thought that the baby was real, so a doctor was called.

The doctor eventually identified the foetus as an Alien
Cosmolight. The 3 children's toy is an alien foetus encased in a
plastic egg which flashes when jolted.






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              Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:13:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 06:19:13 -0400
Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 16:49:32 -0400
>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 17:32:35 -0700
>>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 23:46:41 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

<snip>

>>>All meteoroids have elliptical paths in the solar system, and
>>>retardation by atmospheric passage only modifies the properties
>>>of the ellipse, constantly across time, but does not alter it to
>>>a parabolic course. ...

>>We'd better persue this trajectory question a bit further lest
>>any readers receive bum dope.

>Jim, FYI, I don't give out "bum dope", and I doubt many readers
>are worried about your mistaken view of the mathematical
>properties of meteor trajectories.....

>A bullet's trajectory in the denser, lower atmosphere is, of
>course, quite different (from a meteor's before retardation),
>but I don't buy any claim a bullet fired upward at any angle
>from the horizontal follows a parabolic trajectory. My physics
>professor taught me differently, and maybe I was taught
>incorrectly, but doubt that would be the case.

Hello Ray,

I take this to be mean that you now accept that the bullet's
trajectory is a parabola, when fired horizontally, until air
resistance causes significant deviation. Good.

However, its trajectory under the condition of negligible air
resistance is still parabolic even when the bullet is fired at
an angle from the horizontal. Your physics professor must have
gotten careless for a moment. You could try:

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:NFhvRLUg8JAJ:www.scar.utoronto.ca/~pat/fun/
NEWT3D/PDF/PRJCTILE.PDF+bullet+trajectory+parabola&hl=en

in order to check this out. The derivation's algebra is merely
simpler when the projectile is fired horizontally.

So G. Duncan Fletcher knew what he was talking about, when
describing the  meteor's or bullet's trajectory in the close
vicinity of the Earth as a parabola (not an ellipse), in
simplest terms. He shouldn't be faulted on that account.


Jim Deardorff








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               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:11:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 06:22:23 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 23:40:36 +0100
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 15:50:14 -0500
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 09:05:28 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 21:36:24 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>>That's not completely true; the authenticity of the Barauna
>>>>photographs was endorsed by the Brazilian government at the
>>>>time. The photos were sufficiently clear to reduce some
>>>>contemporary "skeptics" into alleging they were fakes
>>>>perpetrated using 21st Century computer technology - back in the
>>>>1950's.

>>>What nonsense. This is a complete re-writing of history. The
>>>Brazilian government did not 'endorse' the photographs, but made
>>>an ambiguous statement which seemed mainly designed to avoid
>>>having to discuss the matter any further.

>>What ludicrous psychobabble. The Brazilian Navy's report stated
>>(as presented on the CUFOS web site):

>>"After Brazil=B9s House of Representatives demanded further
>>information from the Navy, it was given a secret report on the
>>official investigation. The document was leaked in October 1964
>>to Coral Lorenzen, director of APRO. After reviewing the various
>>sightings and the January 16 photographs, its author, Corvette-
>>Capt. Jose Geraldo Brandao, concluded that the 'existence of
>>personal reports and of photographic evidence, of certain value
>>considering the circumstance involved [absence of evidence of
>>tampering, the presence of other witnesses], permit the
>>admission that there are indications of the existence of
>>unidentified aerial objects.' He also noted the "strong
>>emotional upset... in all persons who sighted the object,
>>including the photographer, civilians, and members of the ship=B9s
>>crew"

>It's worth noting that the phrases in square brackets are Mr
>Fleming's insertions.

Wrong. The comments in brackets were as they appear on the CUFOS
web site:

http://www.cufos.org/trindade_fs1.html

I suppose they were added either by Jerry Clark, who wrote the
article, or by the investigators who originally learned of the
Brazilian navy document on the incident. (I haven't seen the
full report, but I'd like to).

>Without this, the statement is rather more
>ambiguous, with typical weasel phrases such as "of certain
>value...", "permit the admission that..." and "there are
>indications that..."

What Mr. Rimmer tries to spin as "weasel" phrasing, a more
objective person would see as obviously a responsible statement
that did not go beyond the available evidence. What else was he
going to say - that the photographs proved that Brazil had been
invaded by "space aliens?" I'll bet Mr. Rimmer would have like
that.

<snip>

>>>The present-day
>>>>sceptics have made no such allegations about 21st century
>>>>computer technology.
>>>The debate is fully archived on this List, I suggest you re-read
>>>it.

>>I suggest Mr. Rimmer re-read it (or rather, "re-desconstruct"
>>it, since that's what psychobabble enthusiasts seem to prefer
>>doing rather than actually reading things). Here was my comment
>>on Mr. Barauna's apparently remarkable powers to travel into the
>>future and acquire technology not available to the average
>>person - or even scientists - back in the 1950's.

>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m17-005.shtml

>In this posting Mr Fleming is criticising the Brazilian
>researcher Kentaro Mori for using a ditigal technique to
>simulate the type of double-exposure methods Barauna might have
>adopted. At no point does Mori suggest that Barauna used digital
>technology, and Mr Fleming suggests above.

>As it is obvious to anybody that a 1950s photographer could not
>use modern-day digital techniques, ...

It's only obvious to someone who has a slight familiarity with
the history of digital image-processing tecnology _and_ who
happens to think about it long enough to see beyond the
hand-waving.

>Mr Fleming must be suggesting
>that either that Kentaro Mori is aware of this and is
>deliberatly lying, or that he is too stupid to recognise the
>fact. Which is it?

You'd have to ask him why he put up that silly web page. All I
know is that it's highly misleading to support a claim of
hoaxing with images produced by processing techniques that are
absurdly anachronistic for the time of the alleged hoax. I'll
try to be more charitable than Mr. Rimmer usually is and assume
that Kentaro, in his zeal to debunk the Trindade incident,
didn't realize the illogic of what he was doing. It looks like
an act of thoughtless desperation more than anything else.
That's my own "pychosocial" theory, at least.







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                     Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:19:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 06:25:49 -0400
Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For


>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 02:14:20 -0700
>Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

<snip>

>While watching CNN's "Are We Alone" program I noticed that they
>showed the Weekly World News issue that had the headline of
>"ALIEN BABY FOUND ON MARS". It showed Mars landscape in the
>background. The foreground was composed of a dying African child
>with protruding ribs, a big distended belly, and a head that
>appeared huge next to its shrunken body. It was topped off with
>large and protruding eyeballs staring at the reader.

>That is really the sickest of tabloid exploitation! Take a dying
>child who by now most likely passed away from starvation and try
>to palm it off as a Mars alien baby.  The publisher needs a
>shave with BS rubbed all over his face for shaving cream.

Isn't it equally disgusting that CNN, supposedly a responsible
news organization, would use such exploitative junk? I didn't
see the program, but I assume that the motive was, as usual, to
associate legitimate UFO research with cheap tabloids. The
Weekly World News is garbage. And so, increasingly, is CNN.





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              Re: Russians Claim To Have Found Remains Of Craft

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:43:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 06:28:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Russians Claim To Have Found Remains Of Craft


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>,
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:43:29 -0400
>Subject: Russians Claim To Have Found Remains Of Craft

>Source: Xin Hua Net

>http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-08/12/content_1766126.htm

>08-12-04

>Russians Claim To Have Found Remains Of Alien Craft

>BEIJING (Xinhuanet) -- Russian scientists said they have
>discovered the wreck of an alien device at the site of an
>unexplained explosion in Siberia almost a hundred years ago,
>China Daily reported today, citing the Interfax news agency as
>the source.

>The scientists, who belong to the Tunguska space phenomenon
>public state fund, said they found the remains of an extra-
>terrestrial device that allegedly crashed near the Tunguska
>river in Siberia in 1908.

>Their findings also include a 50-kilogram (110-pound) rock which
>they have sent to the Siberian city of Krasnoyarsk for analysis.

I'm kind of puzzled about why a rock is of any great
significance if the scientists found the remains of an alien
spacecraft.

I guess the rock might have traces of radioactivity or anomalous
materials, but given that the original source of the story
apparentlly was Pravda, I'm inclined to suspect that it may be a
bit of tabloid nonsense that diffused its way into the general
media for some reason.







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                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:13:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 06:31:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 01:00:21 +0100
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>(Find _anyone_ who really likes modern classical "atonal" music
>- it's only there because it's composed by the posing rich -
>who have no talent for real music)

I like it.

Or, rather, I like it when it's good, just as I like 18th
century classical music or 20th century jazz or 21st century pop
when they're good. I especially like Webern, but today I was
listening quite happily to Schoenberg.

I've even written "modern classical atonal music." What a
strange notion, that only posing rich people write it! Ray,
would you care to name some names? In my experience - 30 years
as a classical music professional - this kind of music is
written (at least at the present time) by reclusive, dedicated,
slightly nerdy people who don't expect fame or fortune. They
don't expect fame or fortune because they'll never find either,
writing music in this unpopular style. They're not rich at all.
They're lucky if they get a grant now and then, or land a
teaching job at a university.

And if you go back into the past, to the people who pioneered
atonal music - Schoenberg, for instance - you certainly don't
find rich poseurs. Schoenberg at one point had as regular income
only a tiny pension, after he reached mandatory retirement age
and had to retire from his teaching job at the University of
California. He supplemented that pension (less than $50 a month)
with private teaching. To add insult to injury, he'd be asked to
evaluate candidates for major grants, even though he himself was
turned down when he applied.

There's no reason you should like this music - to each his own
poison - but there's no need to spread nonsense about the people
who write it.


Greg Sandow







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                       The MUFON Conundrum - Part III

From: Michael Brownlee <michael.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 21:19:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 06:34:45 -0400
Subject: The MUFON Conundrum - Part III


The MUFON Conundrum - Part III

Abductions - The Weight Of The Evidence

Special to www.CosmicTribune.com

by Michael Brownlee

What MUFON refers to as "UFO abduction" is for many people a
disturbingly uncomfortable subject, and researchers and authors
who specialize in this phenomenon are frequently met with great
skepticism and derision even by UFO researchers. Nevertheless,
MUFON briefly yielded its symposium podium to two individuals
who for decades have been studying "the most controversial
aspect of the UFO phenomenon."

First up was Deborah Lindemann, a Colorad-based clinical
hypnotherapist whose focus is not research but "the well-being
of my clients." Her work has ranged beyond abduction and
extraterrestrial contact into territory routinely viewed as "new
age"-unusual and mystical experiences including out-of-body and
near-death experiences, reincarnation/past-life, life after
death, contact with "the other side," and angel encounters.
These are clearly not the province of MUFON research.
Nevertheless, she clearly has access to important data of great
interest to UFO researchers.

Accordingly, Lindemann conservatively limited her presentation
to the telltale signatures of extraordinary technology present
in her abduction cases. She said she has found a consistent
"forensic blueprint" in these cases which points to "unworldly
implications" (suggesting that the perpetrators of these events
are extraterrestrial, or at least non-human).

Sensing a shift in recent abduction patterns, she noted "more of
a boldness in the way they're showing up." This is in apparent
contrast to the extraordinary level of "camouflage" that has
apparently shrouded so many abduction cases.

Lindemann presented "the tapestry of the alien signature" in a
rapid review of numerous individual cases, including the bizarre
story of Stan Romanek, a Lakewood, Colorado resident who has
experienced at least four abductions over the last three years
and continues to be harassed by otherworldly intruders.
Lindemann's presentation included a series of dramatic video
clips of some of Romanek's encounters (see
http://www.rense.com/general46/stan1.html for more information
about this case).

Abduction cases, she says, are often characterized by physical
trace evidence, including wounds and scars, fluorescence of skin
that has been in direct contact with abductors, and implants
that can be observed radiologically and sometimes even
surgically removed. She also cites the frequent use of
unexplained technology, such as mysterious (and often-
photographed) orbs of light which by some accounts occasionally
"morph into little grays."

Another form of technology characterizing many these cases,
Lindemann says, is the apparent ability to move abductees
through solid walls or transport them to hovering craft via a
coherent light beam.

Of particular interest to Lindemann is the phenomenon of "out-
of-place knowledge," where unusual information will suddenly and
inexplicably "pour out" of an abductee. Here, ordinary citizens
may spontaneously draw complex mathematical equations and
symbols, or describe detailed schematics for propulsion systems
or other seemingly technologically advanced devices. Lindemann
calls this phenomenon "hypercommunication," meaning that the
information is simply "downloaded" to abductees. "They don't
know what to do with it," she says.

Curiously, as Lindemann notes, when these impressive sketches
are examined by scientists, they rarely reveal anything new,
useful, or verifiable. They do, however, provide grist for
endless speculation and fascination, raising the possibility
that they may be intended as a form of distraction (if so, the
strategy is quite successful!).

Another crucial marker of abduction cases, she says, is "the
profound emotional impact these encounters have upon
individuals." While this is the primary focus of Lindemann's
therapeutic work with abductees, she carefully refrained from
detailing this aspect of abduction for her MUFON audience,
preferring instead to simply conclude that "the evidence for
alien contact is robust and undeniable."

----

In the field of UFO research, Budd Hopkins is a legendary
figure, perhaps having brought more public exposure to the issue
of abduction than anyone else. Over the last three decades, his
pioneering efforts to understand "the systematic abduction of
human beings by UFO occupants" have spurred such credentialed
academics as John Mack and David Jacobs to specialize in this
unique field of research.

Though an artist by training and profession, Hopkins' careful
investigations and well-documented discoveries-derived from
working directly with more than a thousand abductees, often
using hypnosis-have formed the basis of much of what we now know
about such encounters. In 1989, he founded the Intruders
Foundation, which focuses on research and public education
regarding the abduction enigma.

When Budd Hopkins speaks, the UFO/ET research community listens.
And at the MUFON symposium in Denver, he did not disappoint.
Tasked with presenting the medical evidence for abduction,
Hopkins reviewed a veritable avalanche of cases to graphically
illustrate the mysterious visible signs that appear on the
bodies of victims.

To begin, he showed numerous photographs of now-familiar "scoop
marks," odd oval-shaped or round surface depressions-sometimes
quite deep-where flesh has apparently been scooped out from
under the skin. As he demonstrated in slide after slide, these
bizarre marks often appear on people's legs-usually along their
shins, on their thighs, and near the knees-immediately after an
abduction experience.

A scoop mark apparently resembles a "punch biopsy," Hopkins
says, a commonly-performed medical procedure (performed under
anesthetic) used to diagnose abnormal skin growths or tumors,
where a thin cylinder of tissue is removed for analysis.

Other marks that Hopkins routinely sees are inexplicable bruises
and elaborate patterns that appear burned into the skin.

Perhaps less well known are dramatic straight-line incisions,
sometimes several inches long. As Hopkins' photographs
dramatically demonstrated, there is little room for doubt that a
significant surgical operation has been performed in such cases.
Like scoop marks, these precise cuts leave lasting and sometimes
significantly disfiguring scars.

Characteristically, says Hopkins, such cuts and scoop marks not
only appear overnight but usually are already completely healed-
with no blood, no pain, no swelling of tissues, and no signs of
sutures. "These are permanent marks that baffle the doctors," he
says.

Hopkins suggests that while such external marks are prominent,
the beings responsible for abductions seem to be primarily
interested in human reproductive organs and the central nervous
system. For instance, he has studied several abductees with
"implants," small metallic objects embedded deep within their
skulls, revealed by x-rays and other radiological reports. These
are apparently injected directly into the interior of the brain-
sometimes through the eye sockets, according to Hopkins. Since
such implants can only be detected radiologically, they are
rarely reported and even more rarely seen by researchers.

Although Hopkins would not speculate as to why strange implants
are being forced into people's skulls, the clear implication is
that large numbers of abductees unknowingly carry such implants
in their bodies.

"I wish we had more precise evidence to back these things up,"
he said, apologizing for his apparent lack of rigor in
documenting such anomalies.

However, he made it clear that his research indicates that UFO
abductees are often the victims of even more radical and
invasive procedures. He recounted several cases where routine
medical examination or surgery revealed suddenly missing
fallopian tubes or ovaries in women. Similar procedures happen
to men as well, he says, as testicles are sometimes removed or
"shrunk to the size of a pea."

Hopkins also reported a new development in recent abductions,
"severe and sudden bleeding from the bladder" in men, a
particularly extreme and dangerous symptom that requires
immediate medical attention. In addition, he described cases of
extreme mutilation of genitalia in both women and men.

All of these cases represent true "medical mysteries," he says.
In other words, there is no way of explaining in medical terms
what has happened to these abductees.

While Hopkins has written and spoken elsewhere about the
increasing number of reports of "disappearing pregnancies," or
the painful emotional trauma that frequently haunts abductees,
he chose not to discuss these at the MUFON symposium. Surely
these are an important part of "the medical evidence," but
apparently not deemed appropriate for this audience.

Why do abductees so often display one or more of the kinds of
medical evidence Hopkins reports? "I am the first to say I don't
know," he says. "We need to look into these cases very
seriously, and we need medical help."

While Hopkins has pioneered the identification of persistent
patterns in abduction scenarios, an occasional case goes far
beyond these patterns. In October last year, researchers Rob and
Sue Switek consulted with Hopkins on a highly unusual case in
which a man suffered severe burning of his lungs during an
abduction encounter. His captors reportedly said they were
"sorry we hurt you," and promised not to leave him unattended.
Hopkins reports that medical examinations have revealed a burn
pattern in the man's lungs "so symmetrical that it must be
mechanical." The victim, now 33, needs a double lung transplant
in order to survive.

To Hopkins, UFO abduction occurs far more frequently than most
of us would like to believe. A Roper Poll he helped design
suggests that up to 2.9 million Americans may be abductees.
Meanwhile, the phenomenon continues unabated. "Probably right
now in Denver somebody is going up the chute," Hopkins said.

----







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   Aug > Aug 13

                 Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II - Bassett

From: Stephen Basset <SGBList2.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 00:52:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 06:42:10 -0400
Subject: Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II - Bassett


>From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:14:41 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II

>>From: Michael Brownlee <michael.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 19:52:04 -0700
>>Subject: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II

>>Where does Bassett himself stand on the election? "I don't
>>care who's president," he says, "disclosure has to happen."

>What a pathetic viewpoint.

>While clearly standing outside the mainstream in the essence of
>his views, Stephen Basset shares one characteristic with his
>fellow Americans of more mundane outlook: he's single-minded,
>unable (or unwilling, for whatever reason) to focus on more than
>one issue at a time.

>With the right combination of circumstances, not caring who's
>president and caring only about "disclosure," could conceivably
>be Mr. Basset's undoing.

>He probably hasn't thought of that, though.

>Rod Brock


As the world's leading authority on what I think about (or don't
think about), permit me to clarify Michael's characterization.

I care very much who is President of the United States and will
vote in November to assert that intention. With respect to which
president effectuates disclosure, I do not care. Think Nixon
opening China.

As for single mindedness, I confess. Does that mean I am not
aware of other issues? No. I am immersed in national and
international news coverage on a daily basis. When I conducted
an activist campaign for congress, it was appropriate to put
forth dozens of positions. That is what is expected of a
candidate - even one challenging the ET truth embargo.

Without diminishing the importance of any other issue, I would
maintain the matter of "disclosure" is of transcendent
importance. Further, one cannot be all things at all times. I am
an activist for disclosure. It is a full plate, and there is not
a host of full time advocates in this genre.

It is also important to note that disclosure of the
extraterrestrial presence and the fact of an engagement of the
human race by such beings is as nonpartisan as it gets. It
requires the attention of everyone. My personal views on the
myriad of other issues is not relevant and would only serve to
divide support for the disclosure process.

After disclosure has taken place, all of the other matters
facing the earth and the life upon it will still be there. It is
only hoped that paradigm change will open new doors and create
new options to deal with these issues in a fashion more
effective than what is now unfolding on the world stage.

I hope this is helpful, and I very much appreciate Michael
Brownlee's effort to further examine the very interesting option
of a political addition to MUFON's mission statement.

Steve Bassett

________________________________________________________

Paradigm Research Group
E-mail: ParadigmRG.nul
URL: www.paradigmclock.com
Cell: 202-431-2459
4938 Hampden Lane, #161
Bethesda, MD 20814
_________________________________________________________







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                  Beam Me Out Scotty - The Farewell Dinner

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 06:50:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 06:50:52 -0400
Subject: Beam Me Out Scotty - The Farewell Dinner




Beam Me Out Scotty - The Farewell Dinner

Source: The Alzheimer's Research Foundation

http://www.alzinfo.org/startrek/


James Doohan is best known to Star Trek fans as Scotty
(Montgomery Scott), the chief engineer aboard the U.S.S.
Enterprise. On August 28, the iconic Doohan will be honored at a
dinner at the Renaissance Hollywood Hotel.

With the recent announcement that James Doohan has Alzheimer's
disease, the dinner and tribute will be a fundraiser to help
support Alzheimer's Disease Research. This occasion will be a
star-studded event unlike any Star Trek celebration before.

Join stars of the hit show, along with other celebrities and
those at the forefront of science to pay tribute to Doohan and
raise funds for The Fisher Center for Alzheimer's Research
Foundation. We invite you to attend and sit down to a sumptuous
meal, prepared by Wolfgang Puck Catering and Events, and
reminisce with other fans about your favorite Star Trek moments.






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               HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 06-12-04

From: Brian Vike - <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 21:49:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 07:16:45 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 06-12-04


HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings


Jackson, Mississippi Disc/Saucer Shaped Craft

Date: May 3, 2004
Time: Daytime sighting

It was a gorgeous, bright and sunny day! Temps were in the 70s.
It was disc/saucer-shaped. Based on where it was in comparison
to the building it was hovering over I'd have to say it was at a
good and certain 20-30 feet long. I was checking on my local
television station's webcam over downtown Jackson, Mississippi,
which in traveling distance is about 15 minutes from me. It was
hovering above the Standard Life Insurance building which is the
tallest building we have here in Jackson. It's no skyscraper,
but a tall building nonetheless and the disc was hovering about
50-70 feet, at most, above the roof just to the right of the
building and it was tilted a bit sideways...that caught my eye
immediately. It was metallic silver in color. I don't really
know what you mean by texture, but it appeared smooth in
appearance if that helps.

Q. - Could you please describe the area in which you made the
sighting. Is it near an airport? An Air Force Base? A military
or research installation of any kind? If you know the names of
any, or all this would be great.

A. - Downtown Jackson, MS, which is the capital here and it is a
typical downtown area with a lot of businesses. It is not very
close to Jackson's airport, but is about a good half an hour
from it and no military bases or installations of any kind in
our area here.

Q. - Did you happen to see any aircraft in the area around the
time of the sighting ? Before, during or just afterwards ?

A. - No, none at all before, during, or afterwards...and I was
checking specifically for that. Also, since it was the middle of
the day the traffic choppers were not out. In addition to this,
no chopper or any other aircraft would be flying that low above
such a tall building. This was no aircraft however. It was
extremely visible on the cam as a disc/saucer shaped craft. If
it had been anything else it would have been extremely easy to
tell...I had that good and clear of a shot of it.

It hovered for about 2 minutes and then zip, zip, zoom, GONE!
Took off in the blink of an eye and left no chemtrails.

Obviously since it was a webcam I had no sound capabilities so I
can't tell you if there was any sound, but I'd venture to take a
guess and say it did not make any sound based on experience with
these "UFOs". It seemed to have a fuzziness around the edges
even though it was a very definitive shape. If you've ever seen
a professional photograph taken with a soft focus lens then that
is what it was like. It makes the subject in the photo soft
around the edges but still very, very definable. Many
photographers use soft focus lenses when taking wedding pictures
for the soft and romantic effect. (I'm a shutterbug so know a
little about this stuff...do my own black and white processing,
developing, etc.). One more thing...I read somewhere on a UFO
reporting sight (and I'm sorry I simply do not remember what
site) about a UFO spotted over downtown Jackson just a few weeks
or couple or so months prior to my sighting! I don't remember
the descriptive details either, but I do remember seeing that
report !

Thank you very much to the witness for their report.

UFOINFO and HBCC UFO Research were involved in this report.

----------------------------------------


Dallas Texas, Triangular Lights

Date: April 22, 2004
Time: Approx: 7:30 p.m.

Hi Brian

This was just after the sun went down on 04-22-04 about 7:30
p.m..I was mostly taping the sunset earlier when I saw this
light in the southwest sky.Thinking it was probably a plane,I
went ahead and zoomed in on it.It was really high because it
seemed to be reflecting the sun still.When I zoomed in on it,I
noticed it didn't look like a plane,it was triangle shaped.I'm
sending you several grabs for you to look at to see what you
think.If you need more info,let me know.

Additional Information:

On the sighting of 04-22-04, I observed the object approximately
one minute. The leading light/ball was the most prominent, but
the other two were glowing brighter at times. I can't say for
sure if the lights/balls came together in a tight formation or
formed into one light. The best I could tell was that it was
triangular and had a light/ball in each corner. It's direction
of travel was heading southwest in a straight line. The
direction it was traveling, it had to have flown right over my
head, but I never heard it, just saw the light afterwards.
Thanks for looking at this Brian..Later my friend.

P.S. I'm sending you the whole taping on two clips, this one
now, the second one soon as this one goes. Maybe you can get
better grabs off these than I can, my software's not too great.
If I send too big of a clip, it locks down my e-mail. Both clips
are approximately 25 seconds each. I'm sending you the second
one now. I forgot to tell you that a jet with a contrail was
coming from the west (Dallas) right after I lost the light, came
right over me, of course I taped it. The light was long gone
before it got here. It was a large jet (passenger or
chemtrailer)

Thank you to the witness for the report, pictures and video
clip.

To view pictures:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1724

---------------------------

Barriere B.C. Near Kamloops B.C. Bright Light

Date: July 16, 2004
Time: 12:07 a.m.

Number of witnesses: 3
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: A bright light moving faster then the airplane.

Full Description of event/sighting: We were visiting friends in
Barriere B.C., it was after midnight and we were outside in the
back yard because it was so hot in there house. Our friends live
on property and there are no streetlights, there is nothing.

I know stars twinkle, and planets are very bright depending on
the time of year and all that. I also know planes especially at
night have those flashing lights on the tail part of the plane.
I was looking at the big dipper, little dipper and the sky in
general. I saw a plane in the left part of the sky, and
underneath where the plane was, another light was very bright
and moving much faster then the airplane, I was glad to have an
example of that planes speed because that other light was not a
plane, it was something else , no flashing lights, just a
brighter light going super fast !

I called to (removed) and his wife to look at this in the sky, I
said "what the heck is that?" (name removed) and his wife looked
up and I pointed to the plane and said see that, well look
slightly below it, what the heck is that thing going really fast
!

Don't tell me that's a plane because it is nothing like that
plane, aircraft normally don't go that speed. (name removed) who
believes in nothing, actually said he has seen that twice
before, going that crazy speed. He said it was a UFO, only
because it goes fast then quickly disappears. Also something in
me said it wasn't human. Did anyone out there witness something
in the sky that night, and if so what could that be.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Phoenix, Arizona White Orb

Date: August 3, 2004
Time: 7:00 p.m.

This little nugget I captured is my second favorite video in my
archive. This is the one and only orb out of 50 I have on video
that flashes like this. I went out in the backyard like I always
do around 7:00 p.m. to look around for UFOs and I saw this orb
coming over my house heading Northeast. I was somewhat excited
but as you know I see these orbs all the time and I taped it
just in case it did something else other than pass by out of
sight. It was a clear day, no breeze and around 7:00 p.m.. The
altitude of the object was approximately 3000'-5000'. It's
always hard to tell how high these are but the size and clarity
was better than usual so that's just my guess compared to others
I've taped. I had the camera on a tripod but it wasn't working
with me and the video is a little jumpy. The actual movement of
the object was in a straight line slowing down and speeding back
to normal. When the object lit up it was so bright that you can
easily see it with your naked eye but when it was not lit up it
was difficult to see. As usual I had the camera on it and it
shows me moving the camera around on the tripod until it stopped
shaking. That's why the object moves so much. You can see how it
moves when I stop moving. It was going about 5-10 mph to the
N.E. until it vanished out of my sight. Very exciting. Thank you
again and I will talk to you soon.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Halifax, Nova Scotia Unusual Object

Date: August 5, 2004
Time: Approx: 8:30 p.m.

Brian,

Thanks for the reply. Sounds good. I think this one is probably
explainable because of the military bases near by but well see
what you can find out.

The details are simple.

Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia (see attached map)

Date: Aug 5th, 2004 around 8:30 PM Camera: Digital Canon
Powershot A70 set to size 1600x1200 set on full auto. Operator:
me


We were driving in to town, heading south along Highway 118 (in
Dartmouth still) just were it turns into Woodlands drive when I
noticed them from the back left passenger seat. I rolled down
the window and took a few pictures as best I could when the car
was slow or stopped. That would put them approximately out over
the Halifax Harbour between Dartmouth and Halifax. The seemed to
be stationary or if they were moving they must have been very
slow (or at high altitude). The reason I though they were
bizarre is that if they were at altitude, I expect to see at
least a short vapour trail. If they were low, I would have been
able to see detail and they would have appeared to be moving
faster with respect to my position. If they were moving, I would
say it was in a northerly direction, with one object slightly to
the east and behind (south) the other one.

Anyway, they really don't look much different in the photo than
in reality even though the photos aren't great. I was hoping to
get some detail later when I loaded the photos onto the computer
and zoomed in but the quality isn't good enough. They just look
like spots. some of the photos have the tops of buildings in
them that give an idea of how fast we were going. One catches a
power line which shows that I was nearly stationary but there
are still few details. One is really out of focus but I snapped
a bunch to see what I could get. The sky seems pretty light in
the photos for 8:30 now that I look at them but I think I'm
right because we were supposed to be in by 8:00 and we were ~1/2
an hour late.

Let me know if you find anything out. Have fun.

Regards

Thank you to the witness for the report and photos.

Pictures can be viewed at:
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=17
04

-------------------------

Kingsland, Texas Bizarre Picture Of ?

Date: August 8, 2004
Time: 11:30 p.m.

It was about 11:30 p.m., I stepped out my back door and It was
very dark. I couldn't see any stars but I thought I would just
point my camera at the sky and see if I could get anything. Well
I was surprised when this, what ever it is came up. Pretty
interesting. I thought maybe it was a star or satellite. I took
a lot of pictures and this is the only one with anything on it.
It came up on the pictures really big. But I enlarged it some
more so I could see it better.

Hope you can figure it out. I've seen UFOs before, several times
in fact. There sure are a lot of unexplained things out there.
Huh! This picture was taken from my back porch, over the lake.
The other picture I sent was from the front of my house. Lake
L.B.J., Kingsland, Texas. Thanks Brian, I will keep looking at
the sky.

Thank you to the witness for the report and picture.

Picture can be viewed at:
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=17
09

--------------------

Surrey, British Columbia Strings Of Beads - UFO

Date: August 7/8, 2004
Time: Approx: 10:55 p.m.

Hi Brian, Sat. night about 10:55, saw that large yellow light
appear almost directly above the Surrey Place Tower heading
North to South. It was so big I thought for a second it was a
landing light but it rapidly faded out and I remembered seeing
it before several months back and telling you at that time.

Sunday night, I aimed my camera at that same area and left it
running but the big light did not appear. Instead I caught two
of those objects which look like strings of beads. The first
appeared at approx:. 9:30 pm. headed in SE, direction. Up to
that point it was the largest I've ever seen and the most
colourful. It consisted of 9 spheres, pink and green in colour.
At approx. 10:40 I saw a similar object heading in the opposite
direction, NW,

When I freeze framed, I found it to be even larger and more
colorful then the first. It consisted off 14 spheres and was in
a kind of stretched out W pattern instead of straight like the
others I've seen. It had pink, green, tan, brown and two bright
yellow spheres in its line up. I've tried putting them onto that
same photo I sent you the other day of the Green tower. I did
make them quite a bit larger to give you a better idea of what
they look like and the colours are correct but I couldn't get
the same shade. Just after 10 pm. I was watching a small plane
flying towards the tower. It was just approaching the tower on
the left when all of a sudden a white object appeared on the
right heading for the ground. I thought it was a meteorite but
at the last second it made a very sharp right hand turn and flew
behind the tower. I didn't see it again so it must have flown
directly away from behind the tower.

While playing with the picture I noticed several anomalies that
I hadn't noticed before. Four in total. This photo is another
from the set I took the first week of Jan. 2004. I tried several
things to try and make them show up better and the embossing
seems to work the best. The one on the upper left is a little
harder to see but there is something there and all four appear
to be saucer shaped.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Pictures can be viewed at: http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=art
icle&sid=1716

--------------------

Hitchcock, Texas Blue Light

Date: August 9, 2004
Time: 10:00 a.m.

I was having coffee and reading when I glanced toward the sky,
expecting rain. At about ten am I caught a glimpse of a blue
light crossing over head at about ten feet from the ground, as I
watched it pass by at a slow speed it blinked like a strobe
light. The thing I don't understand is that I couldn't see it
unless the light was on. When it blinked off, there was nothing
there, not even a shadow on the ground.

This event took about 10 - 15 seconds to end, and then it went
through the tree line and was blocked from view by the trees. I
would like to know more about this as this is my first
experience with this type of phenomenon.

I then heard a voice behind me asking, "What the hell was that?"
I turned around and my neighbor was standing there with a cup in
hand, ready for coffee no doubt, I then asked her what she saw
and she repeated the same as I saw. Thanks,

Additional Information:

Weather: Cloudy, overcast, rainy looking.

Location: Near Hwy 6 and Delany Rd. just appeared overhead, at
10 feet above ground. Movement: On a north west direction, very
slow speed. Level altitude, no weaving or bobbing.

Area of Sighting: I live in a R.V Resort Park and it is about 15
miles from the nearest airport, I did not see any planes in the
area, nor did I hear any sound to indicate the presence of a
plane. It is a secluded area from any major city or high way.

UFO description: It was about six inches long and 2 inches round
with rounded ends, it blinked like a strobe light, when the
light was off, I couldn't see any thing, the light was a
florescent blue.

Additional witness: Refuses to make a statement, says she don't
want anyone to think she's nuts. I tried to explain to her about
being anonymous about it, still refused.

That's About all I can think of at this time, thanks.

Thank you to the witness for this report.

--------------------------

East Los Angeles, California/Montery Park Hills Sighting

Date: August 10, 2004
Time: Approx: 11:00 a.m. to midday

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 2
Shape of objects: While shining no shape/while dull round orb
                  inverted center/silver/black.

Full Description of event/sighting: My name is (removed), at
about the noon hour while in a eight story court building (8) I
was at the 6th floor level. This court house had a 180% degree
view, of the Montery Hills of east Los Angeles, Ca. It was
brought to my attention by my 11 years old granddaughter that
there was a shining star like light over some palm trees, at
about the 200 feet high level. To get a better idea if you were
to look at the object while at a arm length distance the shining
object if you were to gage it at your ring finger/the shining
object would be like size of your ring finger nail. I have never
seen a bright star like object as this object, at about the noon
hour/11:00 a.m. We watched this shining daytime star like object
for about 40 minutes, it remained stationary and brighter than
any nighttime star! After 45 minutes the shining light began to
get smaller/with a combination of dull silver/with a black
inverted center, while it was in this stage a black military
type helicopter flew by the left side of this object, but to my
surprise this black helicopter made no attempt get closer that
1/4 mile to 1/2 mile of this object. After 45 minutes this
object turned into a round duller silver ball/ with an inverted
black center.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Wardsville, Ontario Bright Light

Date: August 11, 2004
Time: 3:33 a.m.

Message: I awoke from a terrible dream last night,I went outside
to have a smoke.I write this report,hoping someone else last
night at 3:30 am,saw the bright white light hovering over the
Thames River,about a mile away from my home....I took some
pictures, but none showed the light. It was bright
white,hovering in the same area for 5 min. then disappeared. No
sound present.

It looked very similar to the light I saw in 1998. Maybe someone
else saw it. Thanks.

Additional information:

This morning, is when the sighting took place, it was in the
north/east section of the sky. It hovered in the same spot for
about 1 min. It was a color-white-sparking, at a distance of
approx:one mile. It seemed to be over the Thames river.

The size was about a pea, compared to the other stars and
approx.30 degrees in the horizon. I looked at it with my
binoculars-just a bright white light-no form inside it. Time-
3:33 am- Aug 11, 2004.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research
Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com Redirect:
http://www.canadianufo.com
HBCC UFO RESEARCH Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/

\





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 13

                      Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 01:48:21 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 07:20:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Gates


>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:01:32 -0700
>Subject: Burisch Story Exposed

>Looks like UFO Magazine has sunk the Burisch tale in its latest
>issue. Yet another UFO kook has been exposed.....

>http://www.ufowatchdog.com/burischdirtbag.html


Royce, Listers,

The whole Burisch story can sum up a lot of the manure that is
spread in the UFO field. A thank-you to the journalist who did
the research (alas, I wish it would have been one of our own)
and thanks to Royce and UFO Magazine for posting the story.

In the Burisch case we have a person(s) who comes forward and
tells some breathless story about ET, biology etc etc that can't
be independently verified or checked out because of all the
usual reasons, i.e. black govt, black op, cover up blah blah
blah. The person unloads the story (or another story) to
journalist George Knapp who checked into to, but couldn't verify
anything so he blew it off, then gives it to others in the
field. Finally at long last somebody takes the bait and runs
with it. Finally after the story is spread around like manure in
a garden a independent journalist checks into Burisch's
background and low and behold discovers that the story is bogus.

Remember Hoagland's intel community sources who wagged the tale
on him about the ET landing to happen on a Arizona mountain top
in Dec of 2000? Same thing happened as above. They wagged the
story on Hoagland, and he passed it on to the research community
and listeners at large, the date comes and goes, nothing happens
and everybody discovers that the story was bogus.

Can you see the pattern here?

1) Somebody tells some incredible story. For example think of
the terms Burisch, Reed/Raith, Shargel and others.

2) The story can't be verified or checked out, usually the
reason given is because it is some super secret black project
that nobody can talk about.

3) Researchers don't check much into the back ground of the
person telling the story, and don't verify any claimed
degrees...after all the black government covers all of that up.

4) Researchers promptly start promoting and distributing the
story all over the Internet, talk radio and many other sources.
They do so in such a fashion that it is believed to be absolute
fact, never to be doubted

5) Story disentegrates and those people who promoted,
distributed, and defended are rarely to be found, prefering to
move on to the next person telling a story or news item. In
essence slink into the shadows.

I give Linda Howe credit for publishing what the journalist
found on her web site and adding the word "alleged" when
discussing Burisch.

One wonders if the rest of the people who distributed, promoted
and talked up this story are now willing to step up to the plate
and with the evidence at hand admit that they were mislead and
issue an apology. Further tell us that they learned from the
experience and will check out peoples backgrounds/story more
carefully next time before vomiting the story all over
everybody.

I mean the whole thing reminds me of another person in Ufology
who indicated that checking out the persons background wasn't
near as important as unloading the storys publicly.

Not to mention Bill "I am part of a government disinformation
program" Moore who said the AFOSI seeded all the tales and
stories into Bennowitz, who promptly passed them along to other
researchers which formed the basis of the Lear/Cooper axis of ET
treatys, Dulce, and various other stories.

Point to all of this is when some alleged govt insider unloads
some incredible tale, they need to be checked out and (here is
the hard part) verified before unloading them.


Cheers,

Robert







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 13

                     Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For

From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 04:58:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:30:18 -0400
Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:42:03 -0500
>Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

>>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 02:14:20 -0700
>>Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

<snip>

>>I still hope this List remains above partisan politics as we
>>come closer to the election. Please don't send me partisan
>>fodder off-list.

>>While watching CNN's "Are We Alone" program I noticed that they
>>showed the Weekly World News issue that had the headline of
>>"ALIEN BABY FOUND ON MARS". It showed Mars landscape in the
>>background. The foreground was composed of a dying African child
>>with protruding ribs, a big distended belly, and a head that
>>appeared huge next to its shrunken body. It was topped off with
>>large and protruding eyeballs staring at the reader.

>>That is really the sickest of tabloid exploitation! Take a dying
>>child who by now most likely passed away from starvation and try
>>to palm it off as a Mars alien baby.  The publisher needs a
>>shave with BS rubbed all over his face for shaving cream.

>>Years ago I posted to the List that in MUFON LA we had a poor
>>fellow who used to hold up that tabloid while believing every
>>word of its BS. We were gentle with him because he was mentally
>>disabled. I sure hope he did not believe the Mars alien baby
>>lies issue.

>I think the likelihood of some sort of 'October Surprise' far
>outstrips that of an ET landing on the White House lawn.

>One side expects it, and the other prays for it.

>I think any candidate in GWs position would pray for one, too.

>Democrat or Republican.

I don't know what you are referring to above. Do you refer to
the spurious claim of "October Surprise" caused by President
Reagan making an alleged deal for Iran to hold the hostages in
Iran until just past his election? That alleged deal was never
proven to be true. How many Octobers passed without President
Carter freeing our citizens while they were held and threatened
for 444 days by our enemy who had already declared war against
the US, the "great Satan? Just what kind of "October Surprise"
are you referring to in relation to this year's election?

That is history and I'm not playing partisan politics. Were you
with your reference to our current President? Was he the GW you
referred to above or did you mean George Washington, George
Westinghouse, or some other GW? Was that your under the table
partisan expression of your true colors? What do you think is
that GWs position? Please tell me any response that is not
related to UFOs by emailing me directly as I feel that it is
outside the bounds of this List.

>Tabloids are in existence for the express purpose of generating
>publicity. You have performed admirably as their pawn.

>Your outrage is their investment, and your outcry is their
>income.

>Ignored, they go away.

What do you mean above? Do you somehow think I am a pawn to them
because I posted how disgusting that cover was to a UFO List?
Tabloids have been here since I was born and they feed off a
large circulation of dimwits who pick them up at cash registers
believing that there is truth within their lies. I don't see
them going away. I used to laugh at their absurdity but there
was nothing funny on that cover.

If you still think I am a pawn please remember that I know very
well how to quickly checkmate any opposition. <g>


Josh







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                     Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:07:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:37:07 -0400
Subject: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind


Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - A Review Of Wendy Connors'
Fourth Compilation Of Ufological Aural History...

by Alfred Lehmberg

www.AlienView.net

One can hardly run out of superlatives regarding Wendy Connors
and her stunning compilations of aural ufological history. I
won't run out of them here. She is solely responsible with
regard to providing what is... just _not_ going to be found...
in any one place... anywhere-else-in-the-known-universe!

I refer, of course, to the - very nearly lost - recorded
expressions of those most _pivotal_ in the study of that which
may very likely foretell an exciting, intellectually profitable,
and expansively efficacious future... for _all_ of us in the
rank and file. That's my feeling, at any rate..... Take it with
a salt mine if required.

On her _fourth_ disc of vintage recordings (including three
times the material of any of her previous compilations!) one
finds the same kinds of discovery and is provoked towards the
same kinds of ufological inspiration as the previous three. This
iteration is called CE-IV, or "Close Encounters of the Fourth
Kind" -- An Audio History of Alien Abduction and Animal
Mutilation 1957 - 1976.

The abduction phenomenon

It may _be_ that people (...you know!) are being abducted by
alien beings for purposes that are... well... _not_ being
vigorously investigated, reader! Digress a bit. Who would profit
as a result of this 'process' of... non-investigation? Answer
that to zip confidently down the ufological rabbit hole, reader,
to intellectual emancipation.

It's a question folks can ask themselves as they survey the
twenty-six (plus!) hours that Connors' disc contains. A rich and
stunning history of the abduction phenomenon is contained
therein, folks, spanning decades! Additionally, there is no
contesting that any true understanding of the flesh and bones of
this abduction 'thing' will have to include some familiarity
with the history of it.

Good thing, then, Ms. Connors is on the scene! But for her we
would all be relegated to current distortions, convenient
interpretations, and conventional wisdoms... facilitated, of
course, by closed-minded individuals, corrupt institutions,
shadow-born agencies, and conveniently authoritarian
governments... no... rather kingdoms!

Does the reader think he has the low-down on Betty and Barney
Hill? Think again. All the reader likely knows about Betty and
Barney Hill are a distorted legend and a few grainy photographs
proffered by _conflicted_ persons powering the preceding
paragraph.

A portrait of the Hills as composed by reactionary
skeptibunkies, noisy negativists , and knee-jerk ufological
denialists paints a picture of a dodgy working class
"interracial" couple (always pointed out)... two people who very
likely made the entire story _up_ out of whole cloth, solely for
purposes of some late-night time in the loony limelight,
presumably.

But that all too convenient assessment is blown away,
decisively, when one listens to Connors' compilation. Truth is
decidedly _stranger_ than the official fiction.

Interviews and accounts recorded from key persons, at the time,
indicate that there was much, much more that was going on with
regard to abductions than can be accounted for in the so called
'record' maintained by our duplicitous mainstream. Barney Hill,
a mail-handler, homeowner, and tax-payer was a very
uncomplicated man with a degree of New England seriousness and
an abundance of personal bravery... or tell me that interracial
marriages were _celebrated_ in the United States circa 1950 -
even if he and his equally brave wife DID reside in the
Northeast United States.

These recordings on the disc actually let the listener get to
_know_ Betty and Barney more than their detractors are
comfortable with. One discovers, upon listening, that Betty and
Barney are simple persons, uncomplicated persons, decidedly non-
 silly persons - innocently guileless persons - but persons who
had a complicated, otherwise convoluted, and decidedly bizarre
experience the 'high-domes' and 'propeller-heads' are unable to
adequately explain. Betty and Barney were _reluctant_ reporters,
reader, and they endured a _lot_ of abuse, then and now, for
having the bravery to make their astonishing report, or tell
their inexplicable tale. I suspect the stress _killed_ Barney.

In support of the Hill's story, moreover, are the recorded
analysis of quality clinicians, researchers, and scientists like
Richard Hall, Dr. Benjamin Simon - MD, John H. Luttrell, Dr.
James E. McDonald, Dr. R. Leo Sprinkle, Dr. Carl Sagan
(...before toeing the obligatory party line?), Dr. Leon Jerrif,
and Mr. Edward Eddleson... et al.

Marjorie Fish is included with the above for a very interesting
reason... Her meticulous astronomical work vis a vis the Hill
case is actually a real show-stopper and despite its startling
merit being clearly pointed out, most notably by Stanton
Friedman (heard on the disc), it remains a reason _furtively_
marginalized, fringe-ified, and too airily ridiculed by the
palsied lions, bluffing tigers, and tedious bears of non-
reflecting and reactionary 'debunker-dom'...

...Betty Hill's intriguing and astonishing _Starmap_ !

During one of Betty's adventurous ordeals the aliens allegedly
showed her a screen that displayed a map of the local transit
lanes between our sun and other star systems. Hypnotically
regressed, Betty reproduced a pen and ink version of it. That
intrepid sketch _still_ causes trouble.

The disparaging hue and cry of the skeptibunkies was predictable
and lamentable, but the aforementioned astronomer Marjorie Fish
(...heard on disc...) wanted to be a little more scientific than
that. She constructed a wire and bead model of the universe
local to our own sun (still in use in college classrooms) and
against all odds (...contrary to what the noisy negativist is
going to thoughtlessly try to feed you!), found a convincing
correlation between Betty's sketch and the physical reality!

Moreover, not only are the stars in the correct locations as
related by Betty Hill, the stars are all of a type similar to
our own, medium yellow second generation stars, the type
postulated by science to be the most forgiving of carbon based
life evolving around them! This was something not widely known,
if at all, at the time... Now -- how the _hell_ did child
welfare worker Betty Hill confabulate all that?

Put together 20 plus stars actually in the positions that Betty
sketched with the subsequently discovered fact that the stars
were of the type to be friendly to evolving life... and you have
the makings for a wonder that raises the hair on the back of
ones neck! How did Betty know? Give the White Rabbit your ticket
stub, reader, and go on in.

There is more on the disc, of course. I can't discuss the whole
26 hours here. Everything from the first recorded abduction case
(the Hills were _not_ the first), through learned explications
by Stanton Friedman, to lectures by David M. Jacobs are covered.
I've just hit a _few_ of the high points.

Cattle mutilation is explored. Travis Walton is interviewed.
Professional law officers give testimony. Cleve Baxter cleanly
bitch-slaps our esteemed Philip Klass for an added treat! Dr.
James Harder lectures on conjectured Alien Communication and Dr.
Leo Sprinkle investigates the prophesy of abductees... be
assured that somethin's shakin' in the tall grass, friends and
neighbors, and it ain't Andy Roberts. This is real.

For more detail, a synopsis of the disc contents, and order info
- visit:

http://fadeddiscs.com/ceiv.html

and get ready for more of Wendy Connors; ufological Rock & Roll.
She's not done by a long shot.

Read on.

alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....



JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!



"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.





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   Aug > Aug 13

                        SCI FI Channel New UFO Series

From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:17:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:40:37 -0400
Subject: SCI FI Channel New UFO Series


The SCI FI channel will launch a new UFO and Paranormal weekly
series titled Proof Positive.

Produced by the Emmy Award winner Cosgrove/Meurer production
company from Hollywood, wide known for their popular Unsolved
Mysteries series hosted by late star Robert Stack.

According to Cosgrove's Elizabeth Meeker this new series will be
focused on UFO and paranormal cases presenting each story with
the traditional style that made their Unsolved Mysteries series
a great success. The Proof Positive series is expected to be
released by the SCI FI channel in September 2004.

The Proof Positive  series will be a good space for us to
present our research works. I was invited last month to present
my research on the Cardenas Family Case along with the family
from Washington State. The documentary was produced by Emmy
Award winner Jim Carr and directed by Jerry Masemei. The crew
was great and the documentary was shot in the actual locations
where the UFO encounter took place. The production was very
serious and highly professional.

It was about time that we could have a new space on television
to present our work. I think the SCI FI channel is keeping his
commitment to support the UFO research. More details on the
SCI FI Magazine.


Santiago Yturria







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   Aug > Aug 14

                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:21:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:13:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:13:39 -0400
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>There's no reason you should like this music - to each his own
>poison - but there's no need to spread nonsense about the
>people who write it.

Greg,

You have my apology for mis-directed scatter-gun approach. For
brevity used "atonal" too broadly.

What I meant was - in music as in literature, and in all ages,
ninety nine percent goes down the toilet of history, rightly, as
meretricious or temporarily fashionable rubbish.

In 500 years would expect some Beethoven & Mahler (& some modern
pop, C&W say) still to be played as music.

But equally expect most contemporary English "classical" - B.
Britten et al (and much "atonal") - to have disppeared with a
gurgle.

Why? 'Cos it wasn't "art" - crafted to please human senses in
any age, but "artifice" - pandering to a temporary prejudice or
trend.

Although, by then the whole of humanity's art to-date might be
only a peripheral or specialist subject.


Cheers

Ray D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






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   Aug > Aug 14

             Descredit To The Field? [was: Factsheet On Salla's

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:24:52 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:19:26 -0400
Subject: Descredit To The Field? [was: Factsheet On Salla's


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:19:08 -0300
>Subject: Re: Factsheet On Salla's Termination

>>From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
>>To: Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:42:26 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Factsheet On Salla's Termination

<snip>

>>I had admonished myself when this exopolitics stuff surfaced
>>that it was only a matter of time before Salla (and possibly
>>Webre) would be making appearances on George Noory. I make no
>>particular claims of prophet-hood, however, since it's a
>>foregone conclusion that if it's nuts, it's gonna be on
>>Coast-to-Coast.

>I am glad you are not suggesting that all who appear on the show
>are nuts. And surely not all nuts appear on the show.

>Frankly, I have been very pleased by the response my appearances
>have brought forth. And surely you don't consider Dr. Seth
>Shostak, of the SETI Institute, a nut? He may be a SETI Cultist,
>but even I don't consider him a nut.

>If you want to improve the quality of the guest list, get more
>of the good guys to go on. I hope to appear with Frank Feschino
>Jr,, the author of an important new book about the Flatwoods
>(WV) Monster UFO case of September, 1952, as soon as the pub
>date is set. I wrote the foreword and the Epilogue.

>In a similar sort of situation, there will be a huge Paraworld
>Expo at the very large Los Angeles Convention Center, October
>21-24. They are expecting 250,000 people. I will be doing 7
>different lectures, workshops, etc. Will I be standing behind
>everybody there? Of course not. Would the world be better off
>and there be greater appreciate of Ufology if guys like
>me boycotted these events? I don't think so.


Stan,

That's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is
the way I do. Every time you, Bruce Maccabee, Budd Hopkins, etc.
go on one of these programs you give "aid and comfort to the
enemy."

The enemy is not Seth Shostak. The enemy is all these kooks and
weridos who give "ufology" a bad name, and you seem to be part
and parcel of them when you appear with them.

You and the others appear to be totally lacking in
discrimination.

This sort of behavior allows the news media and all brands of
skeptics to say, see "ufology" is 99% nutty with an occasional
sane or halfway rational person thrown in.

I say there definitely would be a greater appreciation of
something more deserving of the now-silly name "ufology" if you
did boycott them.


 - Dick







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              Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:56:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:25:15 -0400
Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -


>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:13:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 16:49:32 -0400
>>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

<snip>

>So G. Duncan Fletcher knew what he was talking about, when
>describing the meteor's or bullet's trajectory in the close
>vicinity of the Earth as a parabola (not an ellipse), in
>simplest terms. He shouldn't be faulted on that account.

Jim,

The luminous trajectories of meteors are regularly and reliably
used to determine their elliptical orbits in the solar system,
simply because before retardation from cosmic velocity (while
their course is luminous), their paths are still elliptical, not
parabolic. After retardation from cosmic velocity, the course
modifies drastically, greatly complicating and making maybe an
order of magnitude less reliable the attempted computation of
the pre-terrestrial circum-solar elliptical orbit, and, in fact,
yielding results that are highly unreliable for such purposes.

You are simply beyond your field of knowledge of this, Jim. I
study each issue of Meteoritics and Planetary Science, The
Journal of the Meteoritical Society, to keep up on such matters.
How long has it been since you read anything in it, if ever?
Reading that could be a lot more scientifically valuable than
reading the claims of the 'one armed bandit' in Switzerland who
tells stories and manufactures 'spacecraft photos' that are more
full of holes than Swiss cheese.

Well, to each his own.


Ray Stanford







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                                 Re: Grenada

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:07:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:27:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Grenada


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 18:30:36 -0500
>Subject: Grenada

>After having brought up the subject of Grenada in an off-hand
>way, I did a little additional reading and I feel I should
>clarify my previous comment. The effort by Grenada to bring the
>subject of UFOs before the United Nations happened two coups
>d'etat before the invasion by the United States.

>A brief outline of its recent history is at:

>http://www.iexplore.com/dmap/Grenada/History

>Eric Gairy, deposed in coup #1, was a leader of the Grenadian
>independence movement but had gotten the reputation of a corrupt
>tyrant by the time of the coup, which happened shortly after the
>UFO business.

>Whatever crimes Gairy was guilty of, at least he did provide Dr.
>Allen Hynek the opportunity to speak to the UN General Assembly
>about UFOs:

>http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc757.htm

<snip>

>It's too bad the UN didn't act on Hynek's proposal, but the UN
>has a hard time getting its act together about anything.

Thanks for popping some facts in here Lan.

I didn't say anything about Grenada from those days but now I
will.

My contacts with Grenada then were military and social.

Matter of fact, the first threat about researching UFOs came
from a fellow news editor during the Grenada invasion. I was
taken back by his antagonism as I had no idea UFOs were the
interest of anyone in Grenada at the time. My only concern was a
great patron of the arts who is a huge land owner there and of
military personell who were friends and kin who were invading.

So here I am with three phones going and a computer vdt with the
wire services shipping stories with weird slugs and this editor
starts mouthing off about the leaders of Grenada and how I
should watch out or I'll end up like them. When I whirled around
and gave him a " Wanna step outside and discuss this? " look he
immediately shut up and a senior editor took him aside to his
office and later in the composing room he chilled out and
apologized.

Didn't know Hynek had a Grenada connection. That's most
enlightening. Worth a further look to see what the U.N. could do
today if coaxed to look into the issue.

Gee, lemme see, who at the U.N. owes me some favors? :)


Best,

Greg








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                  Re: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 17:38:35 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:28:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI - Bourdais


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:04:51 -0300
>Subject: Re: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI

>>From: William Wise <w.wise.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:06:55 -0400
>>Subject: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI

>>Paul Davies proposes searching for signs of alien tampering with
>>our genes.

>>Will

>>-----

>>Source: The Sydney Morning Herald

>>http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/08/09/1092022404578.html

>>08-09-04

>>Space isn't the only place to look for proof of extraterrestrial
>>life, writes Paul Davies.

><snip>

>Davies has been writing this kind of stuff for years. As with
>the SETI cultists, he says look everywhere but at the evidence.
>Look to the sky. Look to the DNA, but don't look at the
>evidence. They seem to think that all that matters are exciting
>theories. Don't bother me with the facts, my mind is made up.
>What the public doesn't know, we won't tell them.

>There ought to be a great comedy for the stage in this
>somewhere. Don't go out to the barn to count how many teeth the
>horse has, theorize. To paraphrase Tom Lehrer, let no one else's
>theory evade your eyes. Theorize.

>This is a parody of science.

Hello Stan, and All

I have just read the article by Paul Davies, in the New
Scientist, and I did not see it that way.

Like all scientists of good mainstream standing, he avoids
frontal look at ufos. However, my guess is that his
idea of studying our genes, to try to find some ET message
hidden in them, is pretty close to ufological speculations
about possible alien genetic manipulations.Could it be that
he is not aware of that ? This might be an example of
ufological speculations creeping in established science..


Gildas







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                    China To Launch Moon Probe In 2 Years

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:30:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:30:44 -0400
Subject: China To Launch Moon Probe In 2 Years


Source; The People's Daily - China

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200408/12/eng20040812_152670.html

08-12-04


China to launch moon probe in 2 years

China will launch its first lunar satellite in two years' time,
the Beijing Morning Post has reported.

Dubbed the Chang'e Project after a Chinese fairy who flies to
the moon, the first lunar orbiter  will itself be called
Chang'e-I.

All preparations are in full swing, vice-chief designer of the
project Long Lehao said.

The announcement was made at the same time as reports began
coming in about the ongoing success of the Double Star Programme
test.

The Double Star mission, the first Sino-European project
involving probe satellites, involves two probes, the TC-1 and
TC-2, which fly in complementary orbits around the Earth.

All equipment is functioning well, says Sun Laiyan, director of
the China National Space Administration.

TC-2 was launched from Taiyuan Satellite Launch Centre in North
China's Shanxi Province on July 25.

It will be tested until the end of September, he said.

The Double-Star and the Chang'e missions are China's latest
moves into outer space.

The Double-Star mission will look at the causes of space storms
and how safety in space travel can be improved.

The two satellites will operate alongside four others from the
Cluster II project, a European venture which started in 2000 to
study how solar winds affect the Earth.

Some information has already been collected and will be studied
together with data from the TC-2, Sun said.

The Chang'e probe will involve landing an unmanned vehicle on
the moon and scooping up moon dust to analyse later on Earth.

The fly-by, landing and return phases are expected to be
completed within 20 years.

Sun said China will continue to co-operate with other countries
in space science and exploration.

At the end of the year, officials from the European Space Agency
are expected in China for further talks on space technology.

The Double-Star Programme has laid the foundation for future co-
operation between China and Europe, he added.








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                Re: Factsheet On Salla's Termination - Brock

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:32:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Factsheet On Salla's Termination - Brock


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:19:08 -0300
>Subject: Re: Factsheet On Salla's Termination

>Frankly, I have been very pleased by the response my
>appearances have brought forth. And surely you don't consider
>Dr. Seth Shostak, of the SETI Institute, a nut? He may be a
>SETI Cultist, but even I don't consider him a nut.

No, I don't consider Seth Shostak a nut.


[Please note: Rod Brock has unsubscribed from the List --ebk]


=====
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   Aug > Aug 14

                        6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo

From: Victoria Jack <isis777.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:47:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:41:30 -0400
Subject: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo


********************************************

THE BAY AREA UFO EXPO
2351 Alexis Lane ~ Tracy, CA 95377

For Immediate Release...

THE BAY AREA UFO EXPO

August 28-29 2004

Westin Santa Clara
5100 Great America Parkway
Santa Clara, CA 95051

You've seen "Taken" and "The 4,400" on television. You've
experienced the awe and wonder of films like "Close Encounters"
and "Contact." Now get ready for the reality and truth behind
these amazing stories.

THE BAY AREA UFO EXPO returns this summer for its sixth straight
year as the most-attended UFO gathering in America with the
latest information on UFOs, ETs, Sightings, Encounters,
Abductions, Crop Circles, Earth Mysteries and Conspiracies.

Don't miss attending this cutting-edge event that many agree is
the finest of its kind. Over one jaw-dropping weekend, you will
be dazzled with the stellar line-up of speakers who will share
their knowledge of who we are, where we come from and where we
are headed.

Meet the man synonymous with the famous "Face On Mars," Richard
C. Hoagland, who over two days will disclose stunning new data
on current Earth and Solar changes, and on the results of the
experiment performed at the enigmatic Coral Castle structure in
Florida.

See Jordan Maxwell in his final public presentation. For 45
years this Master Scholar has researched and generously
disseminated his fantastic knowledge of secret societies, occult
symbolism, religion and ETs. His last appearance will be his
best yet.

Also presenting this year are William Henry, James Gilliland
Lloyd Pye, Jaime Maussan, Richard Dolan, Michael Horn, Tricia
McCannon and many more! Our special guests include George Noory
of Coast To Coast AM, The Sci-Fi Channel, Bill Birnes of UFO
Magazine and Sean David Morton.

So, if you are producing an upcoming documentary, alternative
news program or feature film on any of the speakers and out-of-
 this-world topics to be covered at THE BAY AREA UFO EXPO, this
is an excellent opportunity and the best place to be.

For program guide and more information contact:

Victoria Jack
209-836-4281 or

E-mail: isis777.nul

Visit our website at:

http://www.thebayareaufoexpo.com








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             Re: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:02:02 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:44:59 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone - Ledger


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:32:29 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone

>>From: Billy Booth <Ufocasebook.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 23:34:46 EDT
>>Subject: Re: UFO Photographed With A Celular Phone

>>Just a note to let you all know that I rec'd info on the Brazil
>>cellphone case this morning, and translated the details, and
>>enhanced the images. You can access it here:

>>http://ufocasebook.com/brazilcellufo.html

>First impression... very square to the ground, as if sitting on
>it. Very dark... darker than the nearby shadows. Either not as
>far away as it looks or is of a very very dark material.

<snip>

Looks like a pixelized photo of a B-2 Bomber coming right at
you, to me. Was this taken near an air force base perhaps? The
engine nacelles on the B-2 are on the top of the wiung as is the
fuselage. The wing is very thick. If this was one taking off
it's ground effect would raise a cloud of dust if conditions
were right.

See:

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/b2bomber/images/D4C-122599-1.html

Watch the wrap.

Just a suggestion.

Best,

Don Ledger






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                 UK UFO Video - What's What's Up With This?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:16:24 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:07:04 -0400
Subject: UK UFO Video - What's What's Up With This?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/3542418.stm

Thanks Royce Myers for posting this on his site.

If anyone here had posted this on UFO Updates pardon me
for I've missed it.

What's of interest here is that this lady has video of the
object.

What's of greater interest is in the way the story presents
an 'explanation' before she even gets to tell her story!

In the fourth paragraph we already get:

"But astronomers say the mystery object was probably
 Venus in the night sky."

?????

Then we finally get her story. On video at that! Then we get
several paragraphs of 'experts' with the same nonsensical
excuses we've all heard before, satellites, weather balloons,
and Venus again. Non-conclusive mind you, but chock full of
maybes, probablys, coulda woulda shouldas.

I say we ban all weather balloons once and for all and see if
UFO reports decline. I know we can't ban Venus nor satellites
but at least we won't have to stomach this foolishness.

What reporters should do whenever a 'video' is produced is hold
the story until the video is processed by professionals who are
objective ( which is part of being professional ).

Best,

Greg







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              Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:28:51 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:11:10 -0400
Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings -


>From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
>Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:43:31 -0400
>Subject: Re: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>>From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: East African Astronomer Discusses Sightings

>>Visitors from outer space are probably observing and mapping the
>>Earth and have directing their recent attentions to East
>>Africa.

>>That, at any rate, is the considered opinion of one of the
>>leading astronomers in this area, the vice-president of Kenya
>>Astronomical Association, Mr. G. Duncan Fletcher.

>"One of the leading astronomers in this area...", huh? Well, how
>many professional astronomers are in Kenya? :) They even have
>problems getting jobs in the USA. Fletcher has been making pro-
>E.T. statements for decades now, but he never has been able to
>impress his colleagues, and one can see why. See, e.g., below:

Ray,

Why ridicule Fletcher? Is the problem Fletcher or is the problem
the subject matter? I think you would agree that Dr. James
McDonald was a top-notch scientist, probably the greatest UFO
investigator of all time, yet he still had problems impressing
his colleagues to take UFOs seriously. A very famous astronomer
like Clyde Tombaugh reported several UFO sightings. I don't
think most of his colleagues paid much attention to those
either. So what?

>>He put forward this startling and eerie suggestion after a
>>deluge of reports from scores of observers throughout East
>>Africa, who claim to have seen "flying saucers."
>>The most encouraging thing about reports of unidentified flying
>>objects (or U.F.O. as they are labelled officially here), Mr.
>>Fletcher avers, is that "they seemed to be friendly towards the
>>people of this planet."

><snip>

>I haven't noticed any help with our multiple planetary crises,
>from environment to wars. I suppose he believes Adamski's claim
>of Venusians, Martians, Saturnians, and Jupiterians giving him
>great food, drink, and beautiful alien women at the table aboard
>the mothership. :) Or, maybe he's referring to that mind-
>expanding pill an alien allegedly dropped into a glass of water
>which Orfeo Angelucci told us about. :)

A bit over the top, don't you think? I think you do a major
disservice trying to equate Fletcher's modest statement to a
belief in Adamski's claims.

There are many ways UFO behavior could be thought of as
"friendly." I seriously doubt Fletcher was talking about sex
with alien women. Not overtly hostile could be interpreted as
"friendly." Letting us muddle through our own messes without
interference does not suggest hostility either.

The main point is that Fletcher believes the UFOs are real and
have not shown a pattern of hostility. Lot's of other sane and
intelligent people who have studied the subject hold similar
beliefs.

>>"From all the information which is available they are steadily
>>mapping every part of our Earth," he concludes.

>Give us a break, Fletcher! If it takes aliens from the 1940s (or
>before) to 2004 just to map this planet, NASA and other agencies
>are a lot more efficient than are the aliens. :)

There are many forms of "mapping" or surveying other than simple
geographic, such as biological or sociological, which could take
a very long time. E.g., we have armies of human biologists, yet
have "mapped" only a fraction of the Earth's estimated species.

<snip>

>>Mr. Fletcher is convinced that the objects come from outer
>>space and declares that "their behaviour cannot be mistaken
>>for a meteorite which, on coming into contact with our
>>atmosphere, is pulled at an ever-increasing velocity by gravity
>>towards the earth. The velocity becomes so great that the
>>objects burns up because of the intense heat generated by
>>friction with our atmosphere.

>If this guy were much of an astronomer, he would know that
>meteorites do not even pass through the air. Any above-sand-
>grain-sized natural cosmic debris (of various types and origins)
>in space is a meteoroid. In falling to a planet, it is a meteor
>when producing luminosity due to pressure and friction in the
>atmosphere (or, at least by some definitions, even after
>retarded from cosmic velocity and the luminosity has abated),
>but it does not really become classified as a meteorite until
>upon the planet's surface.

Technically correct but a bit of a nitpick, particularly since
Fletcher was being interviewed for a newspaper story meant for
the general public, not an astronomical journal. In such
circumstances, meteor and meteorite are often used
interchangably and generically. E.g., my Funk & Wagnall's second
definition for meteor is, "Loosely, a meteorite or meteoroid."

>"A meteorite does not turn or hover in the air. Its path is a
>parabolic curve similar to that of shell fired from a gun.
>Therefore the things which we have seen are undoubtedly
>unidentified flying objects."

>Also, Fletcher may be so old, these days, that he has forgotten
>this too: The paths of meteors and bullets fired from guns are
>elliptical, not parabolic.

It's much more complicated than that and depends on speed and
frame of reference. In a large frame of reference (i.e., way out
in space where bodies like Earth can be treated like point-like
objects), trajectories of meteoroids, comets, rockets, etc., can
form any conic section: circles, ellipses, parabolas, and
hyperbolas. Circular and ellipical trajectories apply only to
objects moving slowly enough to form orbits. Parabolic and
hyperbolic trajectories are open trajectories formed when the
object is moving too fast to be captured (typical of comets,
e.g.)

In a smaller frame of reference near the surface of the Earth,
which can be treated as essentially flat, textbooks in calculus
and physics do indeed treat ballistic trajectories of objects
like bullets as parabolas (neglecting air friction). Fletcher
was talking about sightings of objects near the Earth's surface,
not way out in space, therefore his statement that a passive
object would follow a parabolic trajectory is correct.

The main point Fletcher was making is that the reported objects
do not behave passively like meteors. They turn and they hover.
Therefore they can't be explained away as meteors. That's a
point well worth making, don't you think?

>If Fletcher doesn't even have knowledge that should be common to
>even the most amateur astronomer, his statements (with the UFO
>report) are not going to make astronomers with their educations
>in-tact pay much attention. He might do better to keep his
>comments about friendly E.T.s taking over 55 years to map the
>earth to himself.

>It is courageous of Fletcher to report this UFO sighting, but
>considering his appended statements, we must look elsewhere, I
>suspect, for an astronomer or astronomers whose words would
>carry weight with professional astronomers or any of the
>scientific mainstream.

Ray, I think your quibbling is obscuring what's important here.
An astronomer does indeed courageously talk about recent
regional UFO sightings and offers his opinion that UFOs are real
and can't be explained away as astronomical objects like
meteors.

Granted, Fletcher is a minor astronomer off in Africa. But I
think that's beside the point. How many astronomers even know of
the UFO sightings or opinions of other, more prominent
astronomers like Tombaugh, or Lincoln La Paz, H. Percy Wilkins,
J. Allen Hynek, or Frank Halstead?

The real point is that Fletcher is not alone in the astronomical
community. As Halstead once remarked in 1957 after having four
UFO sightings of his own, "...Many professional astronomers are
convinced that saucers are interplanetary machines... I think
they come from another solar system, but they may be using Mars
as a base."

Obviously a real nut case.


David Rudiak







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                                  Why Not?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:32:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:13:54 -0400
Subject: Why Not?


Again I ask in regard to the question of whether Earth is
being visited by extratrerrestrials,

Why not?

What is the big argument other than 'proof'?

Would we know it if we examined it? Whom do we depend upon to
tell us what we believe and know to be true or not? The press?
The government?

"It's too far to travel!", I've heard. Too far for whom? " It'd
take eons to travel from one star to another! ", We really know
that as a fact? We're a species that can't even keep toxins like
aspartame out of our food, find WMDs nor stop pop-up ads and we
suddenly are experts on everything regarding physics?

Last time I looked we haven't figured out everything in physics
yet and whenever a brave scientist does figure something out the
mainstreamers lambaste him until it's proven and then everyone
acts like they've always been his best friend.

So again, "Why not?"

Mr. Friedman mentioned travelling star to star during a lecture
or two I've attended and the naysayers kind of shut up when he
laid down his science. I'll bet he's got papers on it that I'll
be ordering.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we don't have irrefutable proof, or do we?

During the 50th Anniversary of the Roswell Incident we video
interviewed many UFOlogists regarding the announced artifact
that was purported to be of alien origin. Mr. Friedman was
generous enough to spend a few minutes before the camera while
signing books and schooled us in a level headed way about making
such claims and how the proof should be attained and presented.
Simply scientific.

"Why not?", "Says who?".

If we have to wait til the sun's heat bakes biscuits in the
butts of our press and government to come forward pro or con
after a fair confrontation of this issue we'll have evolved to
our next step.

So we've suffered the decades of "Why would there be?" and "Why
would they visit us?", so now we flip the script and ask,

"Why not?"

Best,

Greg







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                  Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II - Brock

From: Rod Brock <humble98225.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:44:31 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:16:12 -0400
Subject: Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II - Brock


[Rod has un-subscribed from the List --ebk]

>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:58:38 -0500
>Subject: Re: The MUFON Conundrum - Part II

>It's disclosure that will revalidate culture and society
>because it will of needs be based more on reality than  is
>presently endured. We walk the edge to think a different
>thought, qualify our freedoms, aspire to touch truth on the
>face. Your naivet=E9 with regard to that could be your undoing
>and eventual despair, Sir.

The above flowery prose (and little more than that, it is) rests
on the assumption that all Stephen Bassett says in regard to
disclosure is true and correct. I do not accept that it is true
and correct. If you posit that the idea that we are being
visited by extraterrestrials will bring us into the Golden Age
of all that is bright and beautiful, go out into the inner
cities and take a look at the kinds of problems festering there.
Get your nose _right_in_it_, study it a good long time, and see
if you think that mere "disclosure" of visitation is going to
substantially change that. Go out to the battlefield, through
the refugee camps, down to the basement bars, to deathbed of a
starving child, and tell me that you think disclosure is going
to change that. You see "disclosure" as more of a religious
event than a tangible, material one. A panacea, like the return
of Christ, or the Rapture.

Your view that "disclosure" is going to make the world into a
better place is based only on your wish for it be so. I think
you, who claims to reject the mainstream, are losing yourself in
the idyll of a suburban pop-fantasy, of American vintage.  The
only support for your claim is the flowery New Age pap you
spouted off in this message.

I believe that when and if positive change is effected, we - the
human race - will be the ones to effect it, without disclosure,
without any help at all from our "Space Brothers." Years ago,
Jacques Vallee wrote that one of the six social consequences of
the widespread belief in "intervention" would be the
"undermining of humanity as masters of their own destiny."
Voila, here we are, and Alfred Lehmberg is telling me how
shallow and shortsighted I am for rejecting his vision of the
world through rose-colored glasses.

As for my adherence to the mainstream, I was out there in the
thick of the protests against this current war. I marched the
marches, I raised my voice against the violence of man against
man. Does that make me mainstream? Additionally, I am a
vegetarian - I do not eat meat, because I have seen the
horrible, shocking conditions in which the animals are kept, the
way cows are skinned alive after being merely stunned, the way
that chicks are debeaked to keep them from pecking each others
eyes out in the ultra-cramped never-see-the-sunlight conditions
they are kept in. I have seen the pigs which they make into
Christmas hams and bacon, who are as intelligent as the dogs we
so revere, kept in stalls where they cannot turn around the
entirety of their lives, with festering sores from lying in the
same position day after day. I have seen how the male chicks in
egg-farms are ground up, alive, made into "meat-byproducts" to
feed those same dogs and cats we have chosen to revere.

Does this sound like a mainstream individual? No, it makes me
sound like "one of those quasi-hippy vegetarian fanatics," as
others presently reading this are presently redefining me.

Earlier, you addressed my "eventual despair..." Know that I have
been there. I already have looked into the abyss, and I am BACK.
No God or alien lifted me up - I did it on my own.

You _don't_ know me, Alfred.

>Well - he's thought past his bias, deigned to look behind the
>curtain, stepped out of the box, read from more of the
>forbidden index... It may be his thinking is well past what
>little  original thinking you display here. It _may_ be he
>spreads his arms and soars to more of the infinite, leaving
>far behind him what you perceive far before you. Though, you
>probably hadn't  thought of that.

There is no wit or wisdom, here. More New Age drivel.

Rod Brock



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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             Re: Even Drudge Report Highlights Tunguska Story -

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:58:09 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:18:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Even Drudge Report Highlights Tunguska Story -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:32:50 EDT
>Subject: Even Drudge Report Highlights Tunguska Story

>I was suprised and not suprised that the popular website
>www.drudgereport.com highlighted the Tunguska story today,
>08-12-04

<snip>

>Sure the Russian claims are fantastic and it's going to take a
>helluva lot of evidence, no... proof.

Hi Greg, all,

A couple of years ago I watched a program about Tunguska and
what might have caused the explosion. One Russian scientist
spent a great deal of time setting of mini-explosions in a lab
and photographing them to determine what height, angle and
direction the [anomaly] had used to cause the pattern of the
expolsion. The effect of the explosion was not round as you
would expect but a classic butterfly pattern as determined by
aerial photographs of the area with the larger forward wings of
the patterne forward. He set of mini explosions above a
landscape with hundreds of little sticks standing upright in
sand representing the trees and after dozens of tests he had a
pattern that looked the same as the Tungusta pattern. From this
he was able to determine from what direction the anaomaly came
from and the angle of its descent and it's approximate height.

Then we moved on to the most recent expedition of that time,
some American scientists whowere on site and disregarded
everything this fellow had found out. The had the approach
direction wrong-by some 90 degrees and the angle as well.

There was also details involving witnesses to an object in the
area that curved around  some 70-80 degrees befor exploding and
was observed for a half minute or more. The speeds of over
25,000mph precludes this of course because that's what it takes
for the exploded object to have been a poorly cohesived
asteroid.

I taped this and will find it eventually [moved recently] and
post the names.

Perhaps others saw this documentary.


Don Ledger







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                     Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:59:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:20:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Hebert


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 01:48:21 EDT
>Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed

>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:01:32 -0700
>>Subject: Burisch Story Exposed

>>Looks like UFO Magazine has sunk the Burisch tale in its latest
>>issue. Yet another UFO kook has been exposed.....

>>http://www.ufowatchdog.com/burischdirtbag.html

>Royce, Listers,

>The whole Burisch story can sum up a lot of the manure that is
>spread in the UFO field. A thank-you to the journalist who did
>the research (alas, I wish it would have been one of our own)
>and thanks to Royce and UFO Magazine for posting the story.

Amen to that, Robert.

<snip>

>Can you see the pattern here?

Yes. Do you?

>I give Linda Howe credit for publishing what the journalist
>found on her web site and adding the word "alleged" when
>discussing Burisch.

I'm sorry, Robert, but I will not give Linda Moulton Howe any
credit at all on this case. Linda went around promoting BS
without doing the necessary investigations she should have done
in the first place. She has made mistakes in the past and
continues to make mistakes - even when other researchers provide
evidence to the contrary of her beliefs and claims. Linda must
be held accountable for her actions as well as her lack of
action ( i.e. to investigate first, promote second).

>One wonders if the rest of the people who distributed, promoted
>and talked up this story are now willing to step up to the plate
>and with the evidence at hand admit that they were mislead and
>issue an apology. Further tell us that they learned from the
>experience and will check out peoples backgrounds/story more
>carefully next time before vomiting the story all over
>everybody.

I'm wondering if the individuals who promoted this story will
even be named on this list or anywhere in the UFO community. We
all know who they are. Why do these things tend to get swept
under the rug month after month, year after year? Ever notice
*these* patterns?

>Not to mention Bill "I am part of a government disinformation
>program" Moore who said the AFOSI seeded all the tales and
>stories into Bennowitz, who promptly passed them along to other
>researchers which formed the basis of the Lear/Cooper axis of ET
>treatys, Dulce, and various other stories.

>Point to all of this is when some alleged govt insider unloads
>some incredible tale, they need to be checked out and (here is
>the hard part) verified before unloading them.

If these stories were actually checked out before being spread,
ufology would cease to exist, the truth would become visible and
a lot of speakers and UFO "experts" would be out of a job.

Which came first - the Chicken or the egg? Does ufology exist
because there are UFO's or do UFO's exist because there is a
ufology? If we stopped looking for UFO's, and looked for truth
instead, would we know it if we saw it? If you ran around trying
to catch your shadow, how would you know it was yours if it
changed every time you moved?

I just love riddles. <g>


A. Hebert







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                    Re: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:56:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:23:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI - King


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:04:51 -0300
>Subject: Re: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI

>>From: William Wise <w.wise.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:06:55 -0400
>>Subject: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI

>>Paul Davies proposes searching for signs of alien tampering with
>>our genes.

>>Will

>>-----

>>Source: The Sydney Morning Herald

>>http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/08/09/1092022404578.html

>>08-09-04

>>Space isn't the only place to look for proof of extraterrestrial
>>life, writes Paul Davies.

><snip>

>Davies has been writing this kind of stuff for years. As with
>the SETI cultists, he says look everywhere but at the evidence.
>Look to the sky. Look to the DNA, but don't look at the
>evidence. They seem to think that all that matters are exciting
>theories. Don't bother me with the facts, my mind is made up.
>What the public doesn't know, we won't tell them.

>There ought to be a great comedy for the stage in this
>somewhere. Don't go out to the barn to count how many teeth the
>horse has, theorize. To paraphrase Tom Lehrer, let no one else's
>theory evade your eyes. Theorize.

>This is a parody of science.


Stan,

With all due respect...

I imagine it's a lot harder to hoax DNA than photos... or secret
government memos. :)

I don't understand your reaction at all. If Davies is full of
crap, the very testing he suggests will bear that out. He makes
no proclamation. He simply formed a hypothesis and seeks to test
that hypothesis with current and emerging technologies. A
"parody of science"?

He makes no comment in the cited article that could in any way
be interpreted as "my mind is made up". He simply exercises his
prerogative to think. Implicit in each of his statements is the
fact that he could be wrong.

If a theory you find outlandish is an obvious "parody of
science", then it is unfortunately you who seems to be adhering
to Lehrer's admonishment.

Your comment "parody of science" is not based on the truth since
you do not know that his thesis is invalid. You simply proclaim
it so.

The fact that Davies does not choose to test YOUR theory is not
in any way an indictment of your theory, yet you appear to take
it quite personally.

The answer is not known. The evidence you cite in support of
your theories is provocative, but it is not proof of anything.
You say so yourself. Davies suggests one possible way to prove
an extraterrestrial connection. To ridicule it out of hand as if
it is made redundant by the "facts" is simply beneath any person
of science. Unless your "mind is already made up".

Your comments are frighteningly similar to many I have read in
regards to your research. One would hope that you would avoid
such a hypocritical stance. But perhaps I misinterpreted. If so,
I'd be interested to hear how his idea parodies science.

If your thought is that it is merely a waste of scientific time
that could be better spent doing something else, then your
reaction is simply sour grapes.

If there is no value in Davies' idea, please tell me how it is
flawed... sans �proclamatory' invective if possible.

While I don't personally know if Davies is right or wrong, I do
know that it can be proven. That is rare. Indeed almost a parody
of the UFO research field...

Our best hope is that people keep looking at the sky as well as
inside musty manila folders, and that people keep coming up with
testable wild-ass theories while others seek to confirm existing
ones. Someone could even find one that ends up supporting yours!

Davies is no Nancy Lieder.

When the great stage comedy of the UFO enigma is cast, I find it
hard to believe that it could exclude a Stanton Friedman. Even
if you're right, which is quite possible. I just haven't made up
my mind yet.


Kyle







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             Re: Chances Of Aliens Finding Earth Disappearing -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:23:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:27:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Chances Of Aliens Finding Earth Disappearing -


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 18:08:34 -0300
>Subject: Re: Chances Of Aliens Finding Earth Disappearing

>>From: William Wise <w.wise.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:50:44 -0400
>>Subject: Chances Of Aliens Finding Earth Disappearing

<snip>

>I guess the SETI Cultists can't believe that anybody coming here
>wouldn't want to talk to them. They will always find ways for
>justifying continuing a Silly Effort To Investigate by listening
>for primitive radio signals and looking for primitive laser
>signals rather than examining the evidence we are being
>visited.Psychologists call this DENIAL.They are not really
>interested in ET Intelligence... only in ET signals. How sad.


I can easily imagine reading this on a SETI List:

---begin parody---

"It is truly amazing that the Ufologists keep insisting that
aliens are coming here and that they have been for a long time.

Stan Friedman tried to give me a hard time for saying Ufologists
have said that aliens already know we're here and don't need our
TV signals. I reminded him that Ufologists have a mountain of
evidence, but no proof. I reminded him that our fields are not
mutually exclusive, but two approaches to answering the same
questions. As a scientist, I cannot proclaim to find the answers
in an 'absence of evidence'. We at SETI don't claim to know who
is right, we simply seek quantifiable scientific data on which
to support a hypothesis. While the lack of such data to date is
discouraging, it is no less discouraging than the lack of same
on Stan's side.

I guess the Ufologists can't believe that anybody coming here
would want to talk to them. They will always find ways for
justifying continuing an Extra-Terrestrial Hypothesis by
scouring photos and videos, or digging up old government
documents rather than searching for evidence that we are being
contacted. Psychologists call this DELUSION. They are not really
interested in ET intelligence...only in government coverup and
flying saucers."

---end of parody---

My point is that ridicule and insults do not advance any
argument... they merely fill screenspace and provoke similar
reaction.

I can see value in the work that SETI does. I can see value in
the work of Hamilton, Friedman, Randles, Sparks, Hoagland,
Stanford, Gehrman, Hall, Davenport, and dozens of others. I tend
to trust my instincts and dismiss what seems inconclusive until
more data is presented. I don't accept everything these folks
say, but I acknowledge them as authorities and lend weight to
their arguments until I am satisfied in my own mind.

Shostak admits he's looking for a needle in a haystack, but for
cripes sake, they're looking! They have big fancy equipment and
titled academics fully engaged in this, and Ufology reacts not
by embracing or applauding this effort, but by applying the same
sort of demeaning hyperbole found in critiques of Adamski or
Lieder... or Sparks or Friedman, ad nauseum.

If a group of scientists wants to look out and see if ET is
calling, and can make a compelling enough case to receive
funding for it, bravo to them. At the very least the benefactors
feel that it is worth looking.

Wouldn't it make more sense to look at the obvious success SETI
has had in drawing attention to the ET question and try to
create a similar 'atmosphere'? The passive radar idea is one
such initiative that could engage regular citizens in the UFO
search directly, as with SETI.nul Isn't there room in this
field for multiple lines of research, multiple paths to the
truth?

That different camps espouse differing views on how to find the
answers is a good thing. A problem is best resolved with a
multi-pronged investigation. To ridicule the differing view is
in essence self-destructive, as the entire premise on which we
argue is in many respects quite ridiculous... however true it
may be.

Explain the flaws, undermine the logic, but why resort to
ridicule?


Kyle







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                      Re: Burisch Story Exposed - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 17:03:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:30:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed - King


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 01:48:21 EDT
>Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed

>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:01:32 -0700
>>Subject: Burisch Story Exposed

>>Looks like UFO Magazine has sunk the Burisch tale in its latest
>>issue. Yet another UFO kook has been exposed.....

>>http://www.ufowatchdog.com/burischdirtbag.html

>The whole Burisch story can sum up a lot of the manure that is
>spread in the UFO field. A thank-you to the journalist who did
>the research (alas, I wish it would have been one of our own)
>and thanks to Royce and UFO Magazine for posting the story.

<snip>

>In the Burisch case we have a person(s) who comes forward and
>tells some breathless story about ET, biology etc etc that can't
>be independently verified or checked out because of all the
>usual reasons, i.e. black govt, black op, cover up blah blah
>blah. The person unloads the story (or another story) to
>journalist George Knapp who checked into to, but couldn't verify
>anything so he blew it off, then gives it to others in the
>field. Finally at long last somebody takes the bait and runs
>with it. Finally after the story is spread around like manure in
>a garden a independent journalist checks into Burisch's
>background and low and behold discovers that the story is bogus.

<snip>

>Point to all of this is when some alleged govt insider unloads
>some incredible tale, they need to be checked out and (here is
>the hard part) verified before unloading them.


Robert,

Excellent advice. The thing that troubles me most about the
Govt. coverup theory is this.....

If the government was able to put into place a worldwide
conspiracy to hide absolute proof of an ET existence, wipe away
people�s identities, insert ET-derived technology into current
use, and carry on a political/scientific relationship involving
abduction and examination on citizens, how difficult would it be
to create an entire mythos complete with �experts� and �wackos�
to balance the level of debate, and inject the occasional
compelling tidbit to fuel speculation and argument on both
sides?

Such a monumental psi-ops program would only be useful if there
was a greater truth to hide.

My mind boggles when trying to conjure up a greater truth that
would need to be so well and expensively hidden. I shudder,
actually.


Kyle






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                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 427

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 22:50:04 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:32:16 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 427


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 427 -  10 JULY 2004

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

- Italian Sightings in June
- 6 Months of UFO News in the Italian Press
- Another New Book


ITALIAN SIGHTINGS IN JUNE

The usual monthly update has been made available by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies workgroup on the Italian case histories.

The month of June saw a further increase in reports, as compared
to May: there were 62 cases, due in great part to "crop
formations" and other para-ufological cases (only 38 of the
overall 62 cases concerned "classic" UFO sightings).

Among the reports of interest, there was the observation made in
Pontecurone (Alessandria) of 2 iridescent, conical beams of
light that suddenly accelerated away. The witness noted signs of
restlessness in various animals concurrently with the sighting,
which later was linked to the discovery of a crop circle in the
surrounding area.

Regarding crop circles, 24 of the formations have been
catalogued by the CISU to date, 16 of these in June alone: last
year, those reported totaled a good 46. Lombardy, Emilia-
Romagna, and Piedmont accounted for more than half of these
traces gathered  with only 4 reported in the south and from the
islands.

The year-to-date, annual total has reached a quota of 213 cases,
while 2003 saw 865, 2002 had 822, 2001 witnessed 897, and 2000
counted 440.

Complete listings of cases, tables, and graphics are available
on the CISU's Website (www.cisu.org).

[Report by Giorgio Abraini]


6 MONTHS OF UFO NEWS IN THE ITALIAN PRESS

About 60 monthly UFO news reports were published in Italian
newspapers during the second quarter of this year, doubling the
mean of the previous quarter, while still remaining below that
in the preceding years.

In fact, the quota reached 270 for the clippings collected
during the period from January through June 2004 by the
specialized newsclipping service Eco della Stampa, which for 15
years has been providing the Italian Center for UFO Studies with
complete coverage on items published on the topic in weeklies,
dailies and other periodicals.

The monthly summary data from the CISU's Press Archives, from
1980 to 2004, may also be consulted on-line at the Website of
the CISU (www.The CISU.org/ecotot.htm).

The Italian Center for UFO Studies also offers a service for
subscription to the monthly collections as a complete package
(Eco-UFO) or in partial format (Notiziario Archivio Stampa),
with regards to newspaper news items.


ANOTHER NEW BOOK

The last months have seen a continual succession of new releases
in Italian bookstores covering the UFO topic.

This time around it's the turn of Antonello Lupino, director of
the International UFO Center of Rovigo, who has delivered to the
presses "Dall'Alfa all'Omega" (From Alpha to Omega) - the
history of worldwide conspiracy from ancient civilization
through modern-day UFOs); the book is self-published, and
contains 318 pages of illustrations.

The book is also distributed by the UPIAR e-book service
(www.upiar.com) at a cost of 17.50 Euro (20% discount for CISU
members).



- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free
phone/Internet information service on UFOs edited
weekly by  Edoardo Russo for the Italian Center for
UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici),
available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294,
or by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website
at http://www.cisu.org/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto,
Freelance Italian>English Translator & Proofreader
44 Bickford Ave., Apt. 2
Revere, MA 02151
USA

Tel.: ++1.781.485.1683
FAX: ++1.781.485.1684
E-mail: gpresto.nul
Webpage: http://www.proz.com/translator/723



- - -

(c) 2004 by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe.nul)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 30.78.63 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu.nul
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org









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                     Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:58:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:33:57 -0400
Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:19:15 -0500
>Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

>>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 02:14:20 -0700
>>Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

><snip>

>exploitative junk?

Such is why ETs are aired as such or the physical evidence does
not appear or show itself to be otherwise.

Ever try faux news, what the fair and accurate reporting channel
has to say <G>


John







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                     Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:05:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:35:32 -0400
Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:19:15 -0500
>Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

>>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 02:14:20 -0700
>>Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

><snip>

>>While watching CNN's "Are We Alone" program I noticed that they
>>showed the Weekly World News issue that had the headline of
>>"ALIEN BABY FOUND ON MARS". It showed Mars landscape in the
>>background. The foreground was composed of a dying African child
>>with protruding ribs, a big distended belly, and a head that
>>appeared huge next to its shrunken body. It was topped off with
>>large and protruding eyeballs staring at the reader.

>>That is really the sickest of tabloid exploitation! Take a dying
>>child who by now most likely passed away from starvation and try
>>to palm it off as a Mars alien baby.  The publisher needs a
>>shave with BS rubbed all over his face for shaving cream.

>Isn't it equally disgusting that CNN, supposedly a responsible
>news organization, would use such exploitative junk? I didn't
>see the program, but I assume that the motive was, as usual, to
>associate legitimate UFO research with cheap tabloids. The
>Weekly World News is garbage. And so, increasingly, is CNN.


Good points there Lan.

Atmosphere is the keyword here. Having worked in mainstream news
 I can tell you from over 25 years of experience what the public
doesn't know. It's called 'newsroom atmosphere'.

You'ld be suprised how ignorant many reporters are about
science. Oh they know their social politics but you toss em' a
test tube and they'll think it's  a new party accessory. We were
lucky to have 2 reporters who were science buffs. It was like
being on an episode of 'Star Trek' where everyone confused would
have to turn to the Vulcan or the android to find out what the
new space anomaly was about.

Certain topics were immediately considered for nullification
without so much as a routine standard investigation. That went
toward persons and organizations as well. Unless that person or
organization had some political pull or money they were open
game.

It was often painful to see some eager reporter burst into the
newsroom and let the city desk know they had a story and the
editors go into some schoolroom like chatter. It was funny to
watch the senior editors who were professional, tear them a new
one especially if the subject of the ridicule was a frat brother
or some other such association.

Newsrooms have always been political cesspools and 'good ol'
boy' networks and still are to some degree. Often we'll hear
about the 'liberal media' but I've been in media for quarter of
a century and every single company I've worked for was owned by
right wing conservatives. The reporters were often liberal until
they got a promotion and that increase salary got taxed. Like
there are no atheists in a foxhole, there are no liberals in the
editor's pool.

After '85 the news took a bad turn, again. Turning more tabloid
to compete with declining revenue. I remember many a heated
debate and good ol' donnybrook between hardliners and marketing
suits.

Mainstream press makes mistakes only when they don't follow the
ethics they're obliged to follow. Plain and simple. If
mainstream news were an indicator of what's reality then manned
flight, space flight, super computers, and a variety of things
we find common now would be impossible.

So the news business is basically suffering from something every
other business and government is suffering from:

Gang mentality.


Best,

Greg







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                Re: A Paper: The Year 1954 In Photos - Olmos

From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 02:12:36 +0200 (CEST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:37:12 -0400
Subject: Re: A Paper: The Year 1954 In Photos - Olmos


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:19:24 -0500
>Subject: Re: A Paper: The Year 1954 In Photos

>>From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 23:27:46 +0200 (CEST)
>>Subject: A Paper: The Year 1954 In Photos

>>I am happy to inform that a paper titled "The Year 1954 in
>>Photos" can be read and downloaded at the following URL - in
>>English:

><http://www.anomalia.org/fotocat1954.pdf>

>>It is the first report produced from FOTOCAT, the Spanish
>>Anomaly Foundation=B4s worldwide photographic catalog (4,800
>>entries to-date), whose regular news reports are at:

><http://www.anomalia.org/fotocat1.htm>

>>I hope it can be an item of interest to you. As the author, I
>>will be delighted to hear your comments, additions or
>>corrections to the largest census of UFO photographic cases
>>recorded for the wave year of 1954.

>Is there an accessible database of these photographs on the
>Anomalia.org website?

Terry, no, those photos are not posted in our site, by
the time being. Low quality of reproductions, site limitations
and other issues made me decide not to include them. In the
coming months there will be a Spanish version of the paper,
where I am planning to include the photos (at least those I
have). It will be published in one of the journals of the
Anomaly Foundation, which is edited in DC Rom format. When it is
ready, I will inform this List, just in case there is any
interested person.

In the meantime, if any of the readers of UFO Updates have in
their files any print of any UFO photograph taken in 1954, I
will appreciate having this loaned or scanned, in order to
improve the quality level of the publication in process. You can
write to me at this regard.


Best wishes,

V-J








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                         The Iron Giant Worth A Look

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 21:56:40 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:39:07 -0400
Subject: The Iron Giant Worth A Look


If you good folks on the List ever get the chance to relax
and take in a movie with a UFO/ET/Conspiracy twist,
might I recommend The Iron Giant.

It's an animated film based on the children's book of the
same name.

Any of us who grew up during the Cold War 50's early 60's
will love it. Well actually everyone will.

Of special note is how the government characters respond
to the 'alien menace'.

It's picturesque, spectacularly produced, brilliantly directed
and acted. Note crooner Harry Conick Jr and movie pop idol
Vin Diesel lending their voices. ( Diesel voices the giant ).

Basically "Boy meets alien robot, befriends robot" fare.

Yes, you can watch it with your kids and grandkids and it's
full family entertainment.

Best,

Greg







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                     Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 22:49:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:05:37 -0400
Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For


>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 04:58:37 -0700
>Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:42:03 -0500
>>Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

>>>From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 02:14:20 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: CNN's Look Into The Search For Extraterrestrial Life

<snip>

>>Tabloids are in existence for the express purpose of generating
>>publicity. You have performed admirably as their pawn.

>>Your outrage is their investment, and your outcry is their
>>income.

>>Ignored, they go away.

>What do you mean above? Do you somehow think I am a pawn to them
>because I posted how disgusting that cover was to a UFO List?
>Tabloids have been here since I was born and they feed off a
>large circulation of dimwits who pick them up at cash registers
>believing that there is truth within their lies. I don't see
>them going away. I used to laugh at their absurdity but there
>was nothing funny on that cover.

>If you still think I am a pawn please remember that I know very
>well how to quickly checkmate any opposition. <g>

Josh,

Forgive me. Let me see if I can put this in a way that you can
understand.....

Tabloids make a living off of the outrage their more grievous
stories provoke. I can't explain why, but many people who would
otherwise dismiss it, are drawn to headlines, the more
outlandish the better.

Tabloids are not valid news sources because they create news
when they don't have any. To publicize them at all... either
favorably or unfavorably... is exactly what they want. Your
outrage is their investment... get it?

When you say to someone, "Hey!! Did you see that disgusting
cover on the Weekly World News?", you are tacitly recommending
it, so they can share your outrage. They say, "No!!, and they
pick up a copy and express their outrage, too. See? Your outcry
is their income... get it?

If we... CNN, Josh, everyone... ignored them, they'd go away. We
don't ignore them, which was my point. We perpetuate their
depravity by giving it more attention than it deserves. No
attention equals no tabloids... get it?

I was merely pointing out that criticizing it only helps
perpetuate it.

As for any possible "October Surprise", I meant that in the same
way that pundits have been meaning it for years. If a Democratic
president was in office under our present economic, cultural,
and military conditions, he would certainly hope for some real
piece of good news between now and election day. Unfortunately,
we don't have a Democrat in that office so Mr. Bush is the one
who is surely hoping for some ray of sunshine. If you think in
any way that I inferred an intentionally induced "surprise", you
are inventing... just like Weekly World News.

If that sounds partisan to you, and deserving of your thinly
veiled distaste for my comments, I submit that you are a bit
paranoid, and a bit dismissive of the real problems we face. In
fact my comment was a response to a humorous comment made in the
prior post, and not intended to provoke any politically vengeful
emotional response. That it did speaks volumes... you see??

As for chess, any player who claims to be able to "quickly
checkmate any opposition" is more likely a pawn of their own
delusions of grandeur, or put another way a 'legend in his own
mind'.

But, I gladly resign in the face of your invulnerability. Twould
be folly not to. :)


Kyle







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   Aug > Aug 14

               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:28:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:09:52 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:11:36 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 23:40:36 +0100
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>"After Brazil=B9s House of Representatives demanded further
>>>information from the Navy, it was given a secret report on the
>>>official investigation. The document was leaked in October 1964
>>>to Coral Lorenzen, director of APRO. After reviewing the various
>>>sightings and the January 16 photographs, its author, Corvette-
>>>Capt. Jose Geraldo Brandao, concluded that the 'existence of
>>>personal reports and of photographic evidence, of certain value
>>>considering the circumstance involved [absence of evidence of
>>>tampering, the presence of other witnesses], permit the
>>>admission that there are indications of the existence of
>>>unidentified aerial objects.' He also noted the "strong
>>>emotional upset... in all persons who sighted the object,
>>>including the photographer, civilians, and members of the ship=B9s
>>>crew"

>>It's worth noting that the phrases in square brackets are Mr
>>Fleming's insertions.

>Wrong. The comments in brackets were as they appear on the CUFOS
>web site:

Fair enough, I was wrong. But the point is that these comments
were not in the Brasilian Government's original statement and
were inserted later by ufologists.

>http://www.cufos.org/trindade_fs1.html

>I suppose they were added either by Jerry Clark, who wrote the
>article, or by the investigators who originally learned of the
>Brazilian navy document on the incident. (I haven't seen the
>full report, but I'd like to).

>>Without this, the statement is rather more
>>ambiguous, with typical weasel phrases such as "of certain
>>value...", "permit the admission that..." and "there are
>>indications that..."

>What Mr. Rimmer tries to spin as "weasel" phrasing, a more
>objective person would see as obviously a responsible statement
>that did not go beyond the available evidence. What else was he
>going to say - that the photographs proved that Brazil had been
>invaded by "space aliens?" I'll bet Mr. Rimmer would have like
>that.

My point entirely. The 'available evidence' in the days
imediately after the photographs were taken was that they
represented something inexplicable. By 'weasel' phrasing, I mean
the careful use of words to minimise any subsequent fallout no
matter how the matter was ultimately explained. I believe our
American cousins call it 'covering your butt'.

><snip>

>>>>The present-day
>>>>>sceptics have made no such allegations about 21st century
>>>>>computer technology.

>>>>The debate is fully archived on this List, I suggest you re-read
>>>>it.

>>>I suggest Mr. Rimmer re-read it (or rather, "re-desconstruct"
>>>it, since that's what psychobabble enthusiasts seem to prefer
>>>doing rather than actually reading things). Here was my comment
>>>on Mr. Barauna's apparently remarkable powers to travel into the
>>>future and acquire technology not available to the average
>>>person - or even scientists - back in the 1950's.

>>>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/nov/m17-005.shtml

>>In this posting Mr Fleming is criticising the Brazilian
>>researcher Kentaro Mori for using a ditigal technique to
>>simulate the type of double-exposure methods Barauna might have
>>adopted. At no point does Mori suggest that Barauna used digital
>>technology, and Mr Fleming suggests above.

>>As it is obvious to anybody that a 1950s photographer could not
>>use modern-day digital techniques, ...

>It's only obvious to someone who has a slight familiarity with
>the history of digital image-processing tecnology _and_ who
>happens to think about it long enough to see beyond the
>hand-waving.

The only hand waving I see is Mr Fleming's desperate attempts to
divert readers' attention from the facts of the Trindade case.
Is he suggesting that some readers of this list are unaware that
modern day digital techniques were not available to Baruna?

>>Mr Fleming must be suggesting
>>that either that Kentaro Mori is aware of this and is
>>deliberatly lying, or that he is too stupid to recognise the
>>fact. Which is it?

>You'd have to ask him why he put up that silly web page. All I
>know is that it's highly misleading to support a claim of
>hoaxing with images produced by processing techniques that are
>absurdly anachronistic for the time of the alleged hoax. I'll
>try to be more charitable than Mr. Rimmer usually is and assume
>that Kentaro, in his zeal to debunk the Trindade incident,
>didn't realize the illogic of what he was doing. It looks like
>an act of thoughtless desperation more than anything else.
>That's my own "pychosocial" theory, at least.

The images were quite clearly labelled as to what they were and
why they were posted on the web, and the methods used to create
them are fully explained. There is no suggestion whatsoever that
Kentaro Mori was claiming that Barauna used these methods to
produce his own photographs. I know that, you know that,
everyone reading this list knows that (I shall be more
charitable than Mr Fleming seems to be and assume that list
subscribers do know that advanced digital computer imaging did
not exist in the 1950s). This is not an issue, no sceptical
ufologist is making this claim, but it does provide a handy
sound-bite to enable Trindade enthusiasts to misprepresent the
sceptical position on this case.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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              Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:53:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:11:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Rimmer


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:07:28 -0500
>Subject: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>A portrait of the Hills as composed by reactionary
>skeptibunkies, noisy negativists , and knee-jerk ufological
>denialists paints a picture of a dodgy working class
>"interracial" couple (always pointed out)... two people who very
>likely made the entire story _up_ out of whole cloth, solely for
>purposes of some late-night time in the loony limelight,
>presumably.

Can you please give me a reference to any published sceptical
analysis of the Hill case which makes these claims? I would be
happy to tear it to pieces with my large pelican beak!


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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   Aug > Aug 14

                     Nick Pope On UK James Whale's Show

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:30:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:14:52 -0400
Subject: Nick Pope On UK James Whale's Show


I'll be appearing on James Whale's show on the Talk Sport radio
station this Monday evening, between around 11pm and 1am.

I'll be discussing the SETI workshop held at Harvard University
on August 6 and looking at the latest stories about the so-called
Tunguska event. I'll also be taking calls from any listeners who
want to ask questions, discuss their views or relate details of
any UFO sightings they may have had.

Talk Sport broadcasts at 1089/1053am. You can listen online at
the following url:

http://www.talksport.net/listen


Best wishes,

Nick Pope







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                   Re: Descredit To The Field? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:00:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:19:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Descredit To The Field? - Lehmberg


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:24:52 +0000
>Subject: Descredit To The Field? [was: Factsheet On Salla's Termination]

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:19:08 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Factsheet On Salla's Termination

><snip>

>>In a similar sort of situation, there will be a huge Paraworld
>>Expo at the very large Los Angeles Convention Center, October
>>21-24. They are expecting 250,000 people. I will be doing 7
>>different lectures, workshops, etc. Will I be standing behind
>>everybody there? Of course not. Would the world be better off
>>and there be greater appreciate of Ufology if guys like
>>me boycotted these events? I don't think so.

>That's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is
>the way I do. Every time you, Bruce Maccabee, Budd Hopkins, etc.
>go on one of these programs you give "aid and comfort to the
>enemy."

>The enemy is not Seth Shostak. The enemy is all these kooks and
>weridos who give "ufology" a bad name, and you seem to be part
>and parcel of them when you appear with them.

>You and the others appear to be totally lacking in
>discrimination.

>This sort of behavior allows the news media and all brands of
>skeptics to say, see "ufology" is 99% nutty with an occasional
>sane or halfway rational person thrown in.

>I say there definitely would be a greater appreciation of
>something more deserving of the now-silly name "ufology" if you
>did boycott them.

That would work only if you guys _all_ found a way to organize
towards that end of _substantive_ boycott, Mr. Hall!

Can you do that?

If you _can't_ then Mr. Friedman remains on glidepath and on
glideslope to lend some rational air to the field, sowing
credibility wherever he goes, as do Mr. Hopkins and Dr. Mac.
...and _yourself_ Sir. And Dr. Shostak is not made the enemy, he
makes _himself_ an 'enemy' with his bad citations, fuzzy logic,
and fallacious debating style.

Kal K. Korff? Please!


alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
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...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
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$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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                          Hatch's Hatches Vol.1 #?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:03:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:20:37 -0400
Subject: Hatch's Hatches Vol.1 #?


Fm: Larry E. Hatch <webmaster.nul>
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Dt: Friday (oh heck Saturday [burp!]
Re: Hatch's Hatches #?- 2004

Wisconsin -- Most UFO Sightings

The purpose of these 'hatches' is to report regularly if
infrequently. The assumption is that there is intelligent life
on Earth.

"Pure logical thinking cannot yield knowledge of the empirical
world, but beer at least softens the edges." - Albert Hoppes.

Are There Alien Messages In Our DNA Strands?

No of course not. What clown dished that up? Some Hollywood
mogul said it long ago: " If you want to send a message, call
Western Union."

"SYDNEY - .. The most likely place to find an alien message is
in our DNA, according to an expert in Australia, one Professor
Paul Davies ... "

Didn't some Japanese fellow come up with that exact hypothesis
decades ago? -LH

"Scientists have recently discovered large sequences of "junk"
DNA that contain no genes and appears to be very stable. "

DNA does not "contain genes", its rather the reverse, but never
mind.  My workshop has loads of persistent junk, none of it
containing alien messages. -LH

- - - -

NASA Scientist Sees Possible Mat of Martian Lasagna:

COLORADO -- By Leonardo Espaciado -- A future astronaut
traipsing across the landing sites of the Mars Rovers - Spirit
and Opportunity - might be squishing into a mat of lasagna,
according to one NASA scientist.

One big unknown: Did lasagna ever appear on Mars? And if so, is
that planet home to fine cuisine today? The seeming proof of
water on Mars suggests white wines, but are there any decent
reds?  Only time will tell.

According to Mack David, chef de hote for astrobiology at NASA's
Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas, visual evidence from the
rovers is pretty enticing. He led the group that in August 1996
presented evidence of ancient lasagna from Mars.

The observations strongly suggested primitive lasagna may have
existed on Mars more than 3.6 billion years ago. The NASA-funded
team found the first olive oil molecules thought to be of
Martian origin. Several features characteristic of tomato sauce
and possible microscopic fossils of primitive, oregano-like
flakes inside an ancient Martian pasta fragment that fell to
Earth long ago.

Note: Hatch's Research Institute has been telling our readers
for many years there is life on Earth. I seen some myself, right
under my dad's microscope. The bacteria were chasing one another
shamelessly. -LH

= = =

Perseids - May Cause Damage

On August 11,2004, at about 21h UT, the Earth will pass through
the dense core of the Perseid meteoroid stream from the parent
comet Swift-Tuttle. Carry an umbrella.

= = = =

Alaska - Anti - Missile Interceptor Deployed

FORT GREELY - The United States deployed its first of six
ground-based missile interceptors that would stop a nuclear
missile attack. Unstated is who would launch such an attack.

= = = =

Arthur's Bar - Ice Melting Fast

By Hyman Israel: You wanna to see a bunch of pissed off Mickeys?
 Just let the ice machine at Arthur's Bar break down. Hell, I'm
pissed off too. I like a nice scotch on the rocks, but you
should see Larry Hatch ranting about hot beer. 'This ain't
Sheboygan' I tells him ..

"Greenland's cover of ice is melting ten times quicker than
previously thought" said one expert. So? who drinks a
scotch/rocks up there? Eskimos? They'd probably prefer a hot
brandy.

= = = = =

New York - Strange Neon Light:

STATEN ISLAND -- The witness had a camcorder, but was hesitant
to film a strange neon light at first. Others at the Barbecue
might ask why he was filming a neon light instead of the
Barbecue pit etc. Lets hope the BBQ sauce was more interesting
than this report.

= = = =

New Jersey - Disc

EDGE WATER - Two witnesses were riding in car along Water Street
when they saw a 'curved UFO' on July 17, 2004 .. four night
lights way up in the sky. Being in a curve, this means a circle
or disk, perhaps even a flying saucer. QED.

= = = =

BOUND BROOK -- The two objects flew from the right
to the left, stopped for about ten seconds and then
flew slowly away.

= = = =

Georgia - Tom Sheets Retires

Hatch's Hatches sincerely wishes the very best for
Tom Sheets, a good and honest cop who brought some
sense and order to a chaotic UFO scene in Georgia.

Now back to the lasagna ..

= = = =

Ohio - Circle

PORTSMOUTH -- Now wait a minute here. Portsmouth Ohio?
I gotta look that up. [ 2 minutes delay..]
Well! Sonofagun, there IS a Portsmouth, OH, in Scioto
County.  For a moment there, I though I caught another
Oyster Bay, Nebraska or Yellow Falls, TX. Apologies -LH

Anyhow, somebody and his girlfriend saw a UFO sending
down 4 beams of light which left a UFO circle. The police
thought they were crazy.

= = = = =

Iowa - Disappearing Night-Lights

= = = = =

Nebraska - Fast Moving Night-Light

= = = = =

Arizona - Numerous Orbs

PHOENIX - "I have noticed for the last month or so that
around 1 PM, the same orbs [appear] around the same exact
area in downtown Phoenix.

= = = = =

California - UFO Videos etc.

LOS ANGELES -- around 11 PM, July 23, 2004, a red and white
blinking light in the sky ..

SAN BERNARDINO - strange lights in the sky

AUBURN -- three orbs of light coming out of the setting sun.

SONORA -- flying triangle videotaped ...

= = = = =

DONATE TO KEEP THESE FILES COMING!

Dear Readers - Hatch's Hatches would come hat in hand asking for
donations to the beer fund, but I already have a fridge full of
Grolsche and/or Warsteiner (good stuff BTW). I strongly suggest
a subscription to the CUFOS International UFO Reporter (IUR).
 Here is a link to their site:

http://www.cufos.org/assoc.html

As of January 2004, $24 per year won't my parakeet in
cigarettes. For 6 bucks extra, you can read something far more
solid than these ravings.

= = = = =

WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW WHEN BUY OR SELL REAL ESTATE!

1) Move to California, not now, but long ago.

2) Buy 50 years ago if possible, at least 20 years ago.

3) Sell 20 years later, if at all, but not now.

4) Enjoy some lasagna.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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   Aug > Aug 14

                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:07:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:23:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:21:48 +0100
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>You have my apology for mis-directed scatter-gun approach.
>For brevity used "atonal" too broadly.

Thanks, but.

>In 500 years would expect some Beethoven & Mahler (& some
>modern pop, C&W say) still to be played as music.

>But equally expect most contemporary English "classical" - B.
>Britten et al (and much "atonal") - to have disppeared with a gurgle.

I'm glad you're sure what music will be popular decades - or
centuries - from now. If you're equally sure about the stock
market, or horse races, please give me some tips!

I'm sure this discussion seems esoteric to many listers, but the
problem with Ray's kind of certainty is that, in actual fact,
one never knows. When I was growing up in the 1950s, intensely
interested in music, Mahler - who had died some 40 years earlier
- wasn't played very much. Many people confidently predicted
that he'd be forgotten. And now look: He's a cornerstone of the
classical repertoire.

Britten, by contrast - who died just under 30 years ago - is
very much in the repertoire now. Two of his operas make regular
appearances at the Metropolitan Opera in New York, and yet
another one at our second opera house, the New York City Opera.
I just came from the Aspen Music Festival in Colorado, where a
Britten opera was performed; churches regularly sing his
"Ceremony of Carols"; his "War Requiem" was played in recent
years by both the New York Philharmonic and the Chicago
Symphony. In Chicago it was such a huge success with the public
that, when I did some marketing work with that orchestra, I was
advised to mention it in advertising copy I wrote for them.

Look in any classical record catalogue, and see how many
recordings of the Britten operas there are, especially "Peter
Grimes."

So, if you compare Mahler and Britten, Britten, a generation
after his death, seems to have a much better chance of survival
than Mahler did, a generation after he died. Just shows how
shaky these predictions are.

>Why? 'Cos it wasn't "art" - crafted to please human senses in
>any age, but "artifice" - pandering to a temporary prejudice or trend.

Britten would be an awfully bad example of this. By all
accounts, he was a deeply sincere artist, who pandered to no
one. He would have been more popular in the early part of his
career if he'd written in a more popular style. He even had to
start his own opera company, to get his works performed. Nor did
he follow the leading trends in composition in his day, which
might at least have gotten him international academic success.
It's hard, actually, to find examples of leading classical
composers who consciously pandered to anyone or anything.
Especially the avant-garde - a more wildly sincere group of
people would be hard to find.

It seems to me that there's a lot of "modern" classical music -
20th century and beyond - that you don't like. That's your
privilege; nobody's forcing you to like it. But when you decree
that it's not art, or that it won't survive, I think you're
being quite arbitrary. You're trying to prove that your tastes
are more than just your opinion, but that they have the weight
and authority of cold, hard facts. Which, in art, just plain
doesn't work.

>Although, by then the whole of humanity's art to-date might
>be only a peripheral or specialist subject.

I agree!

Greg Sandow







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   Aug > Aug 15

                 Re: The Iron Giant Worth A Look - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:28:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:15:06 -0400
Subject: Re: The Iron Giant Worth A Look - Lehmberg


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 21:56:40 EDT
>Subject: The Iron Giant Worth A Look

>If you good folks on the List ever get the chance to relax
>and take in a movie with a UFO/ET/Conspiracy twist,
>might I recommend The Iron Giant.

>It's an animated film based on the children's book of the
>same name.

>Any of us who grew up during the Cold War 50's early 60's
>will love it. Well actually everyone will.

>Of special note is how the government characters respond
>to the 'alien menace'.

>It's picturesque, spectacularly produced, brilliantly directed
>and acted. Note crooner Harry Conick Jr and movie pop idol
>Vin Diesel lending their voices. ( Diesel voices the giant ).

>Basically "Boy meets alien robot, befriends robot" fare.

>Yes, you can watch it with your kids and grandkids and it's
>full family entertainment.


Hey!  _I_ cried! <g>


alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.





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             Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:34:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:16:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:53:13 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:07:28 -0500
>>Subject: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>A portrait of the Hills as composed by reactionary
>>skeptibunkies, noisy negativists , and knee-jerk ufological
>>denialists paints a picture of a dodgy working class
>>"interracial" couple (always pointed out)... two people who very
>>likely made the entire story _up_ out of whole cloth, solely for
>>purposes of some late-night time in the loony limelight,
>>presumably.

>Can you please give me a reference to any published sceptical
>analysis of the Hill case which makes these claims? I would be
>happy to tear it to pieces with my large pelican beak!

Better sharpen your 'beak'... your argument is not with me, good
sir. It is with Stanton Friedman. Better do your 'toenails',
too. Pick up a copy of Wendy's compilation and start your
education, Sir, and thanks for reading.


alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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                  Re: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:42:45 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:26:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI - Friedman


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:56:45 -0500
>Subject: Re: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 19:04:51 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Paul Davies Proposes GSETI

<snip>

>While I don't personally know if Davies is right or wrong, I do
>know that it can be proven. That is rare. Indeed almost a parody
>of the UFO research field...

>Our best hope is that people keep looking at the sky as well as
>inside musty manila folders, and that people keep coming up with
>testable wild-ass theories while others seek to confirm existing
>ones. Someone could even find one that ends up supporting yours!

>Davies is no Nancy Lieder.

>When the great stage comedy of the UFO enigma is cast, I find it
>hard to believe that it could exclude a Stanton Friedman. Even
>if you're right, which is quite possible. I just haven't made up
>my mind yet.

As I noted, Davies has been writing about SETI for years,
including when I was in Australia. When he does mention UFOs, it
has always beennegatively and without reference to any data. If
one is interested in alien visitations, the place to look is at
the evidence, not the theories. Observations by eye and by radar
from all over the world of extraordinary craft behaving in
extraordianry ways as compared to Earthling vehicles should be
the place to start. If this or that theory cannot explain the
evidence,the 5000 physical trace cases, the hundreds of
abductions, etc, they should be put on the back burner not put
forth as though great truths are there and not with the
evidence.

I certainly did not claim Davies was a Nancy Lieder. He is a
theoretical astrophysicist like a number of the SETI Specialists
looking to justify his research projects because they might
conceivably possibly, perhaps have something to teach us that
might conceivably tell us something about ET Life out there and
provide research funding for him. Compare this to observations
of the craft and the ETs that are coming here. The emperors have
no clothes.. Admittedly astrophysicists don't rank high on the
list of those accustomed to dealing with transient observations
of  unpredictable phenomena involving intelligence, observed
unexpectedly for relatively brief periods of time.

Davies and most of the SETI crowd are suffering from what Dr .
Beatriz Gabo-Rivera, a European Physicist,has described as the
Crown of Creation Syndrome in her splendid paper "Brane Worlds,
the Subanthropic Principle and the Undetectability Conjecture"
arXiv:physics/ 0308078 v3 27 Jan 2004.


Stan Friedman

Off to Newfoundland until August 26.








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                Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Mori

From: Kentaro Mori <airdown.nul>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:56:34 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:27:53 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Mori


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:11:36 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>You'd have to ask him why he put up that silly web page. All I
>know is that it's highly misleading to support a claim of
>hoaxing with images produced by processing techniques that are
>absurdly anachronistic for the time of the alleged hoax. I'll
>try to be more charitable than Mr. Rimmer usually is and assume
>that Kentaro, in his zeal to debunk the Trindade incident,
>didn't realize the illogic of what he was doing. It looks like
>an act of thoughtless desperation more than anything else.
>That's my own "pychosocial" theory, at least.

You don't have to ask me. You just have to read what I wrote on
the page:

http://www.geocities.com/airsmither/trind.htm

"This was digitally made, using a multiplier to merge the two
images, and is not provided with the intention to be an accurate
depiction of what would be the results with an actual film. It's
just a nice illustration to help to explain the suggestion for
those who may have a difficulty to understand the idea."
(emphasis added)

It's fun to compare the complete quote above with the one you
made of it.

I have some problems with the English language, as you must all
note from the errors I make on writing on this language. But I
don't think any English speaking person should have any problem
to understand what I meant.

Tim Printy has just reproduced, on film -- without "digital
techniques" -- the proposed use of an internal mask. And it
worked: http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/trin6.html


Mori







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                   Re: Descredit To The Field? - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:19:03 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:33:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Descredit To The Field? - Friedman


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:24:52 +0000
>Subject: Descredit To The Field? [was: Factsheet On Salla's Termination]

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:19:08 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Factsheet On Salla's Termination

<snip>

>>If you want to improve the quality of the guest list, get more
>>of the good guys to go on. I hope to appear with Frank Feschino
>>Jr,, the author of an important new book about the Flatwoods
>>(WV) Monster UFO case of September, 1952, as soon as the pub
>>date is set. I wrote the foreword and the Epilogue.

>>In a similar sort of situation, there will be a huge Paraworld
>>Expo at the very large Los Angeles Convention Center, October
>>21-24. They are expecting 250,000 people. I will be doing 7
>>different lectures, workshops, etc. Will I be standing behind
>>everybody there? Of course not. Would the world be better off
>>and there be greater appreciate of Ufology if guys like
>>me boycotted these events? I don't think so.

>That's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is
>the way I do. Every time you, Bruce Maccabee, Budd Hopkins, etc.
>go on one of these programs you give "aid and comfort to the
>enemy."

>The enemy is not Seth Shostak. The enemy is all these kooks and
>weridos who give "ufology" a bad name, and you seem to be part
>and parcel of them when you appear with them.

If we don't appear, we leave even more air-time for the
wierdos. How does that benefit the serious approach to UFOs?

>You and the others appear to be totally lacking in
>discrimination.

>This sort of behavior allows the news media and all brands of
>skeptics to say, see "ufology" is 99% nutty with an occasional
>sane or halfway rational person thrown in.

So if we do not provide sane rationality, would the news media
then say Ufology is 100% nutty with nary a sane voice to be
heard? I for one am far more concerned with reaching the bulk of
the public than the skeptics, who, so far as I am concerned, are
unreachable. I think the sane  and rational people deserve to
have models whose arguments they can quote rather than leaving
the airwaves with no sane voices.

>I say there definitely would be a greater appreciation of
>something more deserving of the now-silly name "ufology" if you
>did boycott them.

Dick I really don't understand. Do you want our books burned too
so the libraries would not be cluttered with voises of reason?

A few years back I appeared on Coast to Coast and offered some
free materials (8 pages) to anybody sending an SASE to me at POB
958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958. I received about 1000 requests, all
but 5 with theSASE - thank goodnes.

More than 200 Post It Notes were also received on the SASEs from
people thanking me for doing what I had been doing for 10, 20,
30 years. I don't know these people. But obviously my views had
had an impact on their thinking. Is this a bad thing?

Sure media appearancs help sell books. Is that a bad thing or
should the book stores be left to the weirdoes and nasty noisy
negativists?

I would be very happy if more people bought your books which
might have happened if you had done more appearances and taken
away some of the airtime given to the bad guys.

Nature abhors a vacuum. If there is space it will be filled by
those available even if they are wierdoes. I will admit it is
inconvenient for me to be on Coast to Coast from 3-6AM and to be
answering my toll free number for days afterward. It seems to me
a small price for me to pay for the opportunity to defeat Dr.
Seth Shostak.

And who is it who would have a greater "appreciation of
something more deserving of the now silly name of ufology"? How
would they know about it if there were fewer voices of reason
raised publicly?

Sorry, Dick, but I want to reach the world more than I want to
reach the high and lofty world of the "respectable and sane" and
quiet voices of ufology. If I have to do battle with the forces
of wierdism and skepticbunkdom, tis a small price to pay. I can
only ask why your voice isn't raised more out there?


Stan Friedman







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                    Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 11:35:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:35:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Stanford


>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:59:27 -0500
>Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed

>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 01:48:21 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed

<snip>

>>I give Linda Howe credit for publishing what the journalist
>>found on her web site and adding the word "alleged" when
>>discussing Burisch.

>I'm sorry, Robert, but I will not give Linda Moulton Howe any
>credit at all on this case. Linda went around promoting BS
>without doing the necessary investigations she should have done
>in the first place. She has made mistakes in the past and
>continues to make mistakes - even when other researchers provide
>evidence to the contrary of her beliefs and claims. Linda must
>be held accountable for her actions as well as her lack of
>action ( i.e. to investigate first, promote second).

Amen, Amy. Thanks for telling it as it is. One might wonder how
it is that years of experience in this field doesn't seem to
teach some people like Linda anything - not even pattern
repetition recognition. :)


Ray Stanford






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                             The Brocking Report

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:52:20 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:36:45 -0400
Subject: The Brocking Report


So Rod Brock has gone. I can only surmise at the reasons but my
guess is he is another victim of the bullying and strutting that
masquerades on this List as ufology.

After all, if one posts, as a service to this List, an article
of historical interest, one doesn't expect to be savagely mauled
for doing so, indeed as if one was the author oneself.

Regardless, if any of you had the momentary capability of
insight and were able to stand back and look at yourselves
objectively, you would see that this is at times nothing more
than a pissing contest. I know more than you blah blah blah.

What has been hysterical over the last couple of weeks is
watching some of the blabbers talk themselves into a corner. You
have no idea what amusement many of you inadvertantly supply.

Sniff sniff, is that the whiff of rapidly diminishing
testosterone I smell? And I wonder why there are so few women
that contribute to this List or that sustain a thread for any
decent length of time?


Stuart Miller







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                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:05:45 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:02:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:07:44 -0400
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:21:48 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>You have my apology for mis-directed scatter-gun approach. For
>>brevity used "atonal" too broadly.

>Thanks, but.

<snip>

>>Although, by then the whole of humanity's art to-date might be
>>only a peripheral or specialist subject.

>I agree!

I hope EBK will forgive me for stepping in on top of all this.

I was a (doofus) Music Major right through the 1960s. I was also
a dedicated beer drinker, the only thing that reaffirms
tradition or liver ailments these days.

In one Menlo Park, CA beer joint, I had the displeasure of
bartending two clowns arguing; ' who is the best singer in the
world'. One fajool was arguing for Roger Miller... " Trailers
for sale or rent... rooms to let fifty cent... Aaaahm a MAyn of
means by not means....."

The other fellow argued for Frank Sinatra who still makes me
sick. Hell, they both make me sick. The two beer morons make me
sick even now.

The daughters of the proprietor, much more interesting, had an
entirely different take on musical matters. One of them (the
pert but chubby one) insisted that the Beatles were down the
tubes, and that "the Monkeys" had taken over in their place. I
argued, without effect, that the Monkeys would be forgotten
before the Beatles stopped recording. I was right of course, but
so what?

Apart from the war in Vietnam, or maybe because of it, the
musical world was in high fermentation mode. This is (and should
forever be) highly unpredicable.

It is also, the mid-to-late 1960s, a period of the most intense
UFO activity ever recorded. Sharper waves show here, but the
high numbers may indicate something I hd not looked at before. I
hope it isn't dope.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






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               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:27:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:05:25 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:28:11 +0100
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

<snip>

>My point entirely. The 'available evidence' in the days
>imediately after the photographs were taken was that they
>represented something inexplicable. By 'weasel' phrasing, I mean
>the careful use of words to minimise any subsequent fallout no
>matter how the matter was ultimately explained. I believe our
>American cousins call it 'covering your butt'.


This memo is from a CUFOS web page at:
http://www.cufos.org/Trindade_New_Evidence_article.html

It was written by an admiral in the Brazilian navy and it sure
sounds llke there _was_ fallout:

-----

THE NAVY MINISTRY
THE NAVY HIGH COMMAND
Rio de Janeiro, D.F.
6 February 1958

INTERNAL COMMUNICATION=8B CONFIDENTIAL
No. 0043
From:  The Subchief of Intelligence.
To: The Vice-chief of the Navy High Command
Subject: Phenomena observed over the Trindade Island
Reference: Report No. 0005, of 1/6/1958, from the Chief of the
Navy High Command to the Commander of the Trindade Island
Oceanographic Post.

1. I am reporting to Your Excellency the information and
conclusions obtained by the Corvette-Captain Jose Geraldo
Brandao, Intelligence agent, with respect to phenomena observed
several times in the area of the Trindade Island.

2. It is my opinion that the facts make necessary a very careful
investigation, so that I would like to suggest to Your
Excellency the following procedures:


a) To order an exploration all over the island (it would be
better if made by helicopters), to verify the existence of
signs, of landing sites of any UAO;

b) To order the installation of vigilance posts on the deserted
part of the island, to permit the observation in all directions
of any abnormal phenomenon;

c) To recommend the garrison to remain alerted in order to
observe and register anything being sighted in connection with
the subject, making every effort to obtain photographs (with
cameras of any kind and in any situation, even at night);

d) To determine that, when UAOs are sighted, the following
instruments must be under careful observation:  radar, magnetic
needles, electric lights, internal combustion engines, the
effects observed must be reported together with the information
already included in the questionnaire released by this High
Command; and this High Command must be informed immediately
about all the occurrences;

e) To give communication to the Navy=B9s Hydrography and
Navigation Dept. of the results obtained and measures taken by
this High Command.



Luiz Felippe Pinto da Luz
Rear-Admiral, Subchief of
Intelligence Dept.

-----

There are other letters written by the Brazilian military on the
same CUFOS web page. They clearly took the incident very
seriously, in part because it occurred in the context of
previous sightings by military personnel on the island.

A report on the analysis of the negatives was critical of the
fact that the captain didn't immediately take possession of the
negatives rather than letting Barauna take them back to his own
photo lab, but the photos _were_ Barauna's, after all.

The military did get the negatives from Barauna later. It's
worth noting that the analysis concluded:

-----

I=8BThe technician from the Navy=B9s HND, after examination of the
negatives, affirms that they are natural;

II=8BThe technicians from the Cruzeiro do Sul Aerophotogrammetric
Service, after microscopic examinations to verify the
granulation, analysis of signals, verification of luminosity and
details of outlines, affirmed:

There was not any sign of photomontage in the negatives
mentioned to, all the evidence indicating they are in fact
negatives of an object really photographed;

The hypothesis of a photomontage contrived after the sighting is
definitely excluded;

It is impossible to prove either the existence or the
nonexistence of a previous photomontage, which requires however
a high-precision technic and
favorable circumstances to its execution.

-----

<snip>

>>You'd have to ask him why he put up that silly web page. All I
>>know is that it's highly misleading to support a claim of
>>hoaxing with images produced by processing techniques that are
>>absurdly anachronistic for the time of the alleged hoax. I'll
>>try to be more charitable than Mr. Rimmer usually is and assume
>>that Kentaro, in his zeal to debunk the Trindade incident,
>>didn't realize the illogic of what he was doing. It looks like
>>an act of thoughtless desperation more than anything else.
>>That's my own "pychosocial" theory, at least.

>The images were quite clearly labelled as to what they were and
>why they were posted on the web, and the methods used to create
>them are fully explained. There is no suggestion whatsoever that
>Kentaro Mori was claiming that Barauna used these methods to
>produce his own photographs.

The "explanation" I referred to was:

"This was digitally made, using a multiplier to merge the two
images, and is not provided with the intention to be an accurate
depiction of what would be the results with an actual film. It's
just a nice illustration to help to explain the suggestion for
those who may have a difficulty to understand the idea."

It's obvious that the fake "UFO" is not a part of the photograph
without the final multiplier step. I'm unaware of any analog
equivalent to digital multiplication. The reader is left to
speculate on how the sneaky Mr. Barauna got the results he did -
 and fool the military photography experts who were in
possession of the photographic _negatives_, not just some
prints. How did Barauna do all the (unspecified) finagling with
contrast necessary to get a convincing double exposure that
"skeptics" darkly suspect on the negatives themselves?







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                      The 'Living The Field' Conference

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 03:14:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:08:25 -0400
Subject: The 'Living The Field' Conference


Hi All,

I had this mail sent to me, so I place it on this List for
anyone who may wish to attend.

Roy

-----
Hi

I'm Lynne McTaggart author of 'The Field: the quest for the
secret force of the universe', which Arthur C Clarke described
as 'an important work which makes a good case that we are on the
verge of another revolution in our understanding of the
universe.'

We are bringing Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell to London to
speak at our 'Living The Field' Conference on 9th & 10th
October.....

Can you help us spread the word?

I would like to spread the word for this conference to as many
interested people as possible. For those of you with a
particular interest in UFOs, Ed Mitchell's revelations promise
to be mind-blowing!

I've included full details below or you can click on:

http://www.wddty.co.uk/thefield/main.asp

for further details.

If you can help us by distributing leaflets or emailing friends
or groups then call 0208 971 1651 or email andy.nul

Best wishes

Lynne McTaggart


*********************************************
Ed Mitchell, renowned Apollo
14 astronaut, and Raymond Moody, author of
Life After Life and world expert on near-death
experiences headline historic conference
on the marriage of science and the spirit
*********************************************


I am delighted to announce that we have confirmed a glittering
array of speakers for the Living The Field Annual Conference
2004, to be held on 9th & 10th October 2004 in London.

So, before you do anything else, make a date in your diary to
keep this weekend free as it'll be one you won't want to miss .
. . and in future you'll be one of the privileged few who can
tell others "I was there."

Click here for the full programme of events

http://www.wddty.co.uk/thefield/conference_about.asp

Make sure you reserve your place today

http://www.wddty.co.uk/thefield/intensive_conference_booking.asp

**************************
Learn from the Icons of
Science & Spirituality
**************************

The conference brings together the most impressive line-up of
speakers we have yet assembled - and arguably one of the most
impressive put together by anyone. It's a once-in-a-lifetime
opportunity to see and hear some of the world's leading
physicists, psychics and spiritual pioneers - all in one
insight-packed weekend. Living The Field 2004 features the
greatest living scientist on brain research and developer of the
holographic theory of the brain; two of the originators of the
CIA-funded STARGATE remote viewing programme; the world's
greatest researcher into near-death experiences, the world's
authority on the psychic ability of plants; and one of the top
researchers into psychic phenomenon.

Reserve your place today

http://www.wddty.co.uk/thefield/intensive_conference_booking.asp


************ The speakers ************

Dr Edgar Mitchell was among the Apollo 14 mission in 1971 that
included the sixth man to walk on the moon. Founder of the
Institute of Noetic Sciences, which investigates the nature of
consciousness, he is author of The Way of the Explorer. He was
inducted to the Space Hall of Fame in 1979 and the Astronaut
Hall of Fame in 1998.

Dr Raymond Moody coined the term the 'near death experience' and
he has been the leading expert in the field for over 40 years.
His breakthrough book, Life After Life, has sold 14 million
copies.

Prof Stanley Krippner is professor of psychology at Saybrook
Graduate School in San Francisco, and is director of the Center
for Consciousness Studies. A noted researcher into human
consciousness. He is also a former director of a dream research
laboratory in Brooklyn.

Neurosurgeon Dr Karl H. Pribram has devoted most of his
celebrated five-decade career to brain/behaviour research at
Yale and Stanford University.He is also the originator of the
holographic theory of the brain. He has received numerous awards


Cleve Backster, the world leader in establishing and teaching
polygraph technique standards, has spent 40 years studying
'primary perception' the evidence that living things like plants
are sensitive to their environment and the people around them.


Lynne McTaggart is author of the book The Field: The Quest for
the Secret Force of the Universe, which has been praised by Sir
Arthur C Clarke, Dr Wayne Dyer, Dr Larry Dossey and by many
others for providing a science of the miraculous. Lynne is also
executive director of What Doctors Don=B9t Tell You, the UK's most
successful health newsletter.

Click here for the full list of speakers

http://www.wddty.co.uk/thefield/conference_speakers.asp

********************* Workshop facilitators *********************

Out-of-body experiences - F Holmes 'Skip' Atwater

A gifted sensitive who had many out of body experiences, 'Skip'
Atwater studied with consciousness pioneer Robert Monroe and
originated the US CIA's psychic spy remote viewing program STAR
GATE. Presently he is the research director of The Monroe
Institute.


Remote viewing - Joe McMoneagle

Joe McMoneagle is one of the world's most well known and gifted
remote viewers. He was the first recruit for STARGATE and a
frequent participant in the top scientific studies into remote
viewing, with Cognitive Sciences Lab, which carried out research
for the STARGATE Project.


Forecasting through dreams - Craig Webb

Craig Webb is the executive director of the Dreams Foundation
with over a dozen years experience in carrying out studies of
dreams and consciousness, including dream research at Stanford
University and Sacre-Coeur Hospital.

Cosmic consciousness - Richard Lawrence

Richard Lawrence is the UK's best-known healer. He is the author
of many best-selling books on healing, including The Magic of
Healing and the Little Book of Karma.

Chrissie and Gary Blaze

Chrissie has been a practitioner and teacher of healing and
metaphysics and astrology for over 20 years. Gary, her husband,
is a long-time student and practitioner of the esoteric yogas,
Taoist internal alchemy and Chi Kung. He is co-author with
Chrissie of Power Prayer.

Make sure you reserve your place today

http://www.wddty.co.uk/thefield/intensive_conference_booking.asp

I hope that you will see our annual Living The Field conference,
our workshop intensives and the monthly course as an integrated
experience to translate the theories captured in my book The
Field into a practical guide and course for daily life. The aim
is to ensure that you don't have to practise in isolation, but
can develop as part of a Living The Field community, with your
own local groups.

Together we can create a quiet revolution for a more fulfilling life.

I very much look forward to seeing you on these two momentous days.


Best wishes

Lynne McTaggart







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                      Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 02:47:00 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:10:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Gates


>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:59:27 -0500
>Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed

>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 01:48:21 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed

>>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:01:32 -0700
>>>Subject: Burisch Story Exposed

>>>Looks like UFO Magazine has sunk the Burisch tale in its latest
>>>issue. Yet another UFO kook has been exposed.....

>>>http://www.ufowatchdog.com/burischdirtbag.html

>>Royce, Listers,

>>The whole Burisch story can sum up a lot of the manure that is
>>spread in the UFO field. A thank-you to the journalist who did
>>the research (alas, I wish it would have been one of our own)
>>and thanks to Royce and UFO Magazine for posting the story.

>Amen to that, Robert.

><snip>

>>Can you see the pattern here?

Hi Amy,

>Yes. Do you?

I do. As you know from my previous posts, I have seen it a long
time ago.

>>I give Linda Howe credit for publishing what the journalist
>>found on her web site and adding the word "alleged" when
>>discussing Burisch.

>I'm sorry, Robert, but I will not give Linda Moulton Howe any
>credit at all on this case. Linda went around promoting BS
>without doing the necessary investigations she should have done
>in the first place. She has made mistakes in the past and
>continues to make mistakes - even when other researchers provide
>evidence to the contrary of her beliefs and claims. Linda must
>be held accountable for her actions as well as her lack of
>action ( i.e. to investigate first, promote second).

No apology necessary here...nwe just have a minor disagreement.
I agree that Linda distributed and promoted the Burisch Stories
(we could refer to Burisch Stories as true BS.... :) ) and
tales, so various others over the time this has been around, not
to mention being on talk radio. I am giving the others a few
weeks to step up to the plate and see if they will.

Linda has taken the steps to publish on the Internet the
information from the journalist and others on July 13th in a
piece called: The Chapter 7 Bankruptcy of Dan and Deborah
Burisch. This can be viewed at:

http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=745&category=Science

She at least published the info and the various documents which
leads to the conclusion UFO mag reached, i.e. it was a stroke
job. Conviently Burisch pronounced that as of June 8th of this
year his alleged govt handles will no longer allow him to make
any statements, etc etc and he was retiring, etc etc. One
wonders if he was hearing about the Atlanta Journalist looking
into this background.  Now how many others who
promoted/distributed BS are taking any kind of steps? So far
that I know, nobody.


>>One wonders if the rest of the people who distributed, promoted
>>and talked up this story are now willing to step up to the plate
>>and with the evidence at hand admit that they were mislead and
>>issue an apology. Further tell us that they learned from the
>>experience and will check out peoples backgrounds/story more
>>carefully next time before vomiting the story all over
>>everybody.

>I'm wondering if the individuals who promoted this story will
>even be named on this list or anywhere in the UFO community. We
>all know who they are. Why do these things tend to get swept
>under the rug month after month, year after year? Ever notice
>*these* patterns?

These very pattern is what I was talking about when I mentioned
the slinking back into the shadows. We will likely hear stories
about how they never believed Burisch in the first place but
felt the story was important enough that it had to be told
instantly, etc etc...

>>Not to mention Bill "I am part of a government disinformation
>>program" Moore who said the AFOSI seeded all the tales and
>>stories into Bennowitz, who promptly passed them along to other
>>researchers which formed the basis of the Lear/Cooper axis of ET
>>treatys, Dulce, and various other stories.

>>Point to all of this is when some alleged govt insider unloads
>>some incredible tale, they need to be checked out and (here is
>>the hard part) verified before unloading them.

>If these stories were actually checked out before being spread,
>ufology would cease to exist, the truth would become visible and
>a lot of speakers and UFO "experts" would be out of a job.

I think if alot of these stories got checked out before they got
vomited all over the public, we wouldn't have near the tale
bearing that we have now and it would be a good thing.

>Which came first - the Chicken or the egg? Does ufology exist
>because there are UFO's or do UFO's exist because there is a
>ufology? If we stopped looking for UFO's, and looked for truth
>instead, would we know it if we saw it? If you ran around trying
>to catch your shadow, how would you know it was yours if it
>changed every time you moved?

I think ufology exists because we have UFOs. After all from 1947
through the early 50s there wasn't any serious groups
investigating things until APRO, then later NICAP and MUFON.

>I just love riddles. <g>

Agreed. How about this one. What came first. The secretive
government insider spilling information or Hoagland. Does
Hoagland exist because he has various stories from people who
claim to be government insiders.? Nah, this could get
convoluted real fast..... :)


Cheers,

Robert







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   Aug > Aug 15

                          Serpent Mound To Mothman

From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 07:02:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:13:43 -0400
Subject: Serpent Mound To Mothman


Source: The Akron Beacon Journal - Ohio

http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/9370126.htm?1c

Sun, Aug. 15, 2004
Beacon Journal
Akron, Ohio

Sleuth for Mothman

Some weird attractions are too big for one state; stop in W.Va.
for eerie fun

By Denise Grollmus
Beacon Journal staff writer


Today, we wrap up our three-week look at some of the more
unusual spots in Ohio. Today's attractions would make an ideal
three-day, two-night eccentric Ohio adventure. It cheats a bit
as it includes a skip and a jump across the Ohio River into West
Virginia territory - Point Pleasant, to be exact.

Before you get to West Virginia, the trail includes a variety of
strange museums, manmade phenomena, a few arcane objects that
claim the title of "the world's largest," as well as two quirky
accommodations.

But the true treat of the trip lies just across the river, in
the tiny town of Point Pleasant, where Mothman once resided.

Though many assume the story begins with a swashbuckling Richard
Gere as a renegade reporter in The Mothman Prophecies, this
story actually begins in Point Pleasant in 1966, when five men
were preparing a grave and spotted a humanlike figure with wings
lifting off from the trees and flying away.

They weren't the only ones who claimed to see this flying
mystery man. For the next year, "Mothman" was sighted all over
the region, until Dec. 15, 1967, when the Silver Bridge, which
linked Point Pleasant to Ohio, collapsed into the Ohio River,
killing 46 people.

The Mothman Prophecies is actually a 1975 book written by
reporter John Keel. It includes more than 100 testimonies from
people who claimed to have seen Mothman and it also suggests a
link between the bridge collapsing and the creature's strange
presence (hence the "prophecies" part).

After Mothman disappeared, locals claimed to be interrogated by
men in black.

Was it a biological disaster at the hands of the toxic chemicals
hiding in an abandoned TNT plant in the Point Pleasant woods
that created the monster? Or was Mothman an extraterrestrial
being, sent from outer space as an omen
of bad things to come?

Follow the Mothman trails and you decide.

++++++
For more on Mothman, try
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1931044341/cryptozoologi-20
++++++

Now, get out your Ohio map and plan your routes to the following
destinations. See if you can find more Ohio oddities on your
own!

Orrville Toy and Hobby Museum: Collecting a massive number of
mundane objects is a human activity that truly puzzles the mind.

One of the biggest mind puzzlers lies in Orrville's Toy and
Hobby Museum.

Their 10,000-plus collection of pencils will make your junk
drawer a pack rat joke.

It's also nice to see someone preserving the art of pencil
engraving - you know, all those pencils with some company's name
emblazoned in a gold print that flaked off onto your teeth when
you chewed your pencils?

There's also an exhibit of more than 4,500 toy trucks and more
than 1,000 salt and pepper shakers.

World's largest cuckoo clock: It's the world's largest cuckoo
clock, what more can you say?

It's huge!

Every hour, a 13-inch bird pops out of the Swiss-styled cabin as
a five-piece oompah band plays on and cloggers get down,
spindley legs and all.

Located on the Alpine-Alpa Cheese House's roof in Wilmot, stop
in the shop and grab some cheese (it's really good cheese),
check out the robotic milkmaid, or get some grub in the
amazingly gawdy restaurant. It's so Swiss!

Warther Museum in Dover: Ernest "Mooney" Warther was a good
guesser.

After learning how to whittle a pair of pliers out of wood in
just 10 cuts, he guessed that if he made 31,000 cuts into one
piece of wood just over a foot long and just under an inch wide,
he could cut 511 pairs of pliers into what would resemble a tree
of pliers.

He did it.

But that's not all he did. He also carved the history of the
steam engine, a miniature model of the steel plant he worked in,
and a commemorative model of Abraham Lincoln's funeral train.
His carving of the Empire State Express is the world's largest
ivory carving.

And if that doesn't seem impressive enough, his wife's 73,000-
plus collection of buttons is also on hand to boggle your mind.

World's largest picnic basket: At 23 feet tall, 11 feet wide,
and 48 feet long, this picnic basket is not joking around.

Sitting in the center of Dresden, the largest Longaberger basket
in the world was woven in 1980 by 2,000 employees at the
Longaberger Basket Company.

Though it pales in comparison to the company's Newark corporate
office building, built to resemble a basket, this basket was
actually woven in the same manner as the company's trademark
durable picnic basket.

Devil's Garden to Hell's Oven: New Straitsville is probably the
most literal version of hell in a traditional "pit full of
flames below the Earth's surface" kind of way.

The town has been sitting on top of an active fire for the past
115 years, thanks to a coal strike in 1884 where coal miners
filled coal cars full of flaming timbers and hurled them into
the mines below.

In the 1930s, the New Deal's WPA attempted to clean up the fire
without any success. The town became a national tourist
attraction, and a few local's capitalized by paying children to
fry eggs and percolate coffee over the fuming cracks or fuel the
fires by adding tires and gasoline.

Though the fire will appear to have stopped, every once in a
while a crack opens up in a new location. The last major fissure
occurred in 1991, when a 15-foot crack appeared, spewing fire
and smoke.

When the town was still a major tourist trap, these holes were
named everything from Devil's Garden to Hell's Oven.

The streets are also rumored to be unusually warm, and
supposedly the snow melts as soon as it hits the ground.

The most interesting site would be the top of Plummer Hill,
where the coal miners first started what some call the "longest
burning man-made fire in history."

You can also stop by the New Straitsville History Group for a
glimpse of historic photos.

Ravenwood Castle: Sleeping in castles is awesome.

Now, thanks to Sue and Jim Maxwell, you no longer need to go all
the way to Europe for a bit of medieval living.

The Maxwells built the Ravenwood Castle in New Plymouth in the
style of a 12th century Norman castle to meet all your medieval
needs.

The castle boasts everything from King Henry VIII suites and
Queen Elizabeth guest rooms to gypsy wagons and 15th century
cottages for two.

Breakfast is also served in a "Great Hall" decorated with
elaborately carved furnishings and an intimidating fireplace
that adds a bit of Gothic flare.

Best part yet: Ravenwood Castle sits on the highest hill in
Vinton County, so you can walk out onto the balcony of your King
Arthur suite, gaze out upon miles and miles of greenery and
shout "It's all mine! Wahaaahaaahaa!"

Dust off those Renaissance festival costumes and get ready for
an antiquated sleep over!

Serpent Mound: At1,330 feet-long, Ohio's Serpent Mound in Locust
Grove near Peebles is the most famous of all effigy mounds in
the United States.

The head of the serpent, with what appears to be an egg in its
mouth, is said to point to the summer solstice sunset and the
coils also appear to purposefully point in the direction of the
winter solstice sunrise and the equinox sunrise.

No one knows for certain who built it or why, though the mound
has been associated with two different groups - the Adena
Indians (800 B.C. to A.D. 1) and the Fort Ancient Indians
(around A.D. 1000).

The mound is also extremely curious because of its location in
an area that is composed of extremely faulted and folded
bedrock, an uncommon geographic characteristic for Ohio.

Some have speculated that the unusual makeup of the land is due
to a volcano eruption or a meteorite strike, but no volcanic
matter or meteorite debris have been found.

The Serpent Mound museum was opened in 1967, and contains
exhibits illustrating various interpretations of the snake
pattern, the processes of constructing the effigy, and the
culture of the Adena people.

Mothman: Though Mothman was spotted all over southern Ohio as
well, Point Pleasant, W.Va., was considered the creature's abode
and the town contained the largest concentration of sightings.

Mothman's "home" was in the same area where TNT storage huts
were built by the United States Army during World War II.

Now abandoned, the structures sit in the McClintic Wildlife
Management Area. The domes are super conspicuous because they
look like man-made hills of grass with little trap doors in the
center... super spooky.

Probably the site of the most terrifying set of UFO sightings in
the region, Point Pleasant is still proud of its
extraterrestrial heritage. Some are also still haunted by the
sightings, especially in their connection to the collapse of the
bridge.

All along historic downtown, coffee shops and stores sell
Mothman memorabilia and books that include copies of original
Mothman police reports.

At the center of historic downtown's Gunn Park sits a steel
sculpture of Mothman, created by Bob Roach.

In 2002, Point Pleasant began hosting the annual Mothman
Festival. This year's celebration will be held Sept. 18 and 19.

Lots of locals are happy to share their Mothman stories, and
most businesses offer a number of maps to the Mothman trails,
which will lead you to the TNT huts as well as key sites where
Mothman's most hyped appearances took place.

There's a lot of adventuring to be done, so it's suggested that
you stay the night in Point Pleasant, especially because
searching for Mothman at night is way more intense.

The Lowe Hotel is highly recommended. It's in the center of the
historic district, where you'll find a great greasy spoon, a
pretty cool record store, and lots of Mothman stories.

The hotel was built in 1901, and it hasn't lost a bit of its
early 20th century charm - the rooms are still locked with old
skeleton keys. It's the perfect place to get you in the spooked-
out Mothman mood.

Hint: If Mothman and the Lowe Hotel aren't scary enough for you
toughies, ask around for the Lakin State Hospital. It's an
abandoned mental institution sitting alongside state Route 62,
north of Point Pleasant, in the middle of a giant field. It is a
very ominous looking building -- classic haunted house style.
There are many a ghost story about this place.

Birthplace of the banana split: Mothman hunting spook your soul?
Soothe it with the original banana split before you trek home.

Actually it's a battle of midwestern wits, as Latrobe, Pa.,and
Wilmington, Ohio, battle it out to prove which town invented the
banana split first.

Though Latrobe has claimed that it invented the dessert monolith
three years prior to Wilmington, Buckeyes scoff as they
celebrate the Banana Split Festival each June in honor of Ernest
Hazard, Wilmington's prized inventor.

In 1907, Hazard, owner of Hazard's Drugstore (which no longer
exists), held a contest among himself and his employees to see
who could create the best new ice cream dish.

The bossman beat the help out with his one scoop of vanilla
(covered in chocolate syrup), one scoop of strawberry (covered
in crushed pineapple), and one scoop of chocolate (covered in
strawberry jam), all topped with whipped cream, nuts, a few
cherries on top, and cradled elegantly between a split banana.

Hazard's cousin, Clifton, gave the dessert its famous epithet,
the "banana split," and you can still eat a historical
reproduction of Hazard's original at Wilmington's Gibson
Goodies.






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 15

                         UK's $850 Million UFO Park

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 08:18:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:17:14 -0400
Subject: UK's $850 Million UFO Park


Source: The Sunday Mail - Scotland

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=3D14532139%26method=3Dfull%26si=
teid=3D86024%26headline=3D%2dpound%2d850m%2dufo%2dsite%2ding-name_page.html

08-15-04

UFO fans have bought a 150acre site for the world's first alien
theme park. The =A3850million attraction will be at Bonnybridge,
Stirlingshire, famous for UFO sightings.







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   Aug > Aug 15

                        The MUFON Conundrum - Part IV

From: Michael Brownlee <michael.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 06:55:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:19:48 -0400
Subject: The MUFON Conundrum - Part IV


Part Four: The Human Response To An Extraterrestrial
Intervention

Being primarily a forum for the latest research, a MUFON
symposium is an unlikely place for thoughtful consideration of
an appropriate human response to the extraterrestrial visitation
apparently signified by the UFO phenomenon. But in Denver, MUFON
directors invited Marshall Summers - one of the most
controversial and perhaps least-understood figures in the
UFO/ETI research community - to present a rare workshop on this
important topic.

Summers is not a researcher, but a contemplative who for twenty
years has been "quietly receiving a body of teachings which
constitute the first real spirituality of contact," according to
editor Darlene Mitchell at New Knowledge Library
(www.greatercommunity.org), a non-profit reader-supported
publishing company dedicated to making Summers=92 works available
in print.

Formerly "a hidden spiritual teacher," Summers was reluctantly
thrust into the UFO controversy when, as he tells it, in 1997 he
began receiving a series of "briefings" from a small group of
off-world extraterrestrials who claimed to represent the Allies
of Humanity, a network of individuals dedicated to the
preservation of freedom and sovereignty among emerging worlds.

According to the reclusive Summers, these mysterious Allies were
sent to this region of the galactic neighborhood in the late
1980s "to observe, not to intervene; to witness, not to become
involved." Their briefings, now published in two volumes,
comprise the Allies=92 report to humanity about their observations
of the activities and intentions of those extraterrestrials who
are currently active in our world, providing a vantage point and
an understanding that until now have simply been unavailable to
humans.

Summers makes it clear that the Allies offer "no spoon-feeding,
no extraterrestrial makeover of humanity, no new world order, no
new spiritual leadership - and no free energy." Instead, they
have provided the keys to seeing the extraterrestrial presence
for what it is, an uninvited and clandestine intervention into
human affairs. In addition, he says, "the Allies give us a
window into the universe, the Greater Community of intelligent
life."

The initial image that the Allies present in their briefings is
stark and disturbing: "Very briefly," says Summers, "we=92re
undergoing a subtle intervention whose purpose is to gain
control of our world, its resources, and its people." This
campaign is being carried out by extraterrestrial forces whose
interests are unabashedly commercial in nature. These
interlopers are here, he says, "because we possess resources in
our world that are very valuable to other races for very
practical reasons."

"We must see that an intervention is not a visitation," Summers
declares. "An intervention is a forced entry."

Summers likens humanity=92s current position to "the natives of a
new world," who unknowingly have in their possession natural
treasures that are of great value to outsiders. When a new world
is discovered, he notes, the first to arrive on its shores are
resource explorers. "This is nature" in a universe of great
competition and complexity, he says, a reality that has been
played out again and again in human history.

While MUFON researchers have been able to identify many of the
pieces, accumulating data about what is happening in the
phenomenon, they do not and cannot deal with more difficult
questions, such as: Why is it happening? What does it mean? How
can we prepare for contact? "These are not easy subjects for
science to deal with," says Summers. "Now we=92re entering the
realm of something else - spirituality, insight, philosophy,
intuition, nature. It=92s bigger."

"The UFO phenomenon is a pretty uncomfortable place to be,"
acknowledges Summers. "We=92re at the threshold of something that
most people don=92t know about and most don=92t want to know about."
He maintains that "the UFO phenomenon is not a mystery" but a
puzzle with many missing pieces. The Allies briefings make it
possible to connect the dots, he says.

Summers realizes that the Allies challenge "the orthodoxy of the
UFO community," an accepted group of beliefs, assumptions and
expectations that distort perception of the extraterrestrial
activities. "It=92s gone so far," says Summers, "as to become
=91spiritually incorrect=92 to question the extraterrestrial
presence."

In contrast, the Allies=92 briefings present "a very prosaic
picture of life beyond our world," he says. "It=92s not the kind
of Magic Kingdom that we often hear about, particularly in
channeled works, where we=92re sort of a third world planet
surrounded by enlightened beings who are shepherding us towards
enlightenment or who are going to rescue us from our own self-
destruction."

"We=92re still operating out of Drake=92s Equation," explains
Summers, which implies that "anyone who becomes advanced
technologically must have advanced ethically or they would have
destroyed themselves." However, this assumption is not borne out
even in human history, he observes, where some civilizations
have survived over a long period, advancing technologically "but
certainly not ethically and spiritually."

The Allies contend that technological and spiritual evolution do
not necessarily go hand in hand, according to Summers. For
instance, in our modern society "we have great technological
advancement, but our spiritual advancement is questionable."
This is important to understand, he says, "because it tells us
what advanced races in the Greater Community are going to be
like. If their spiritual and ethical evolution is not
commensurate with their technological evolution, then you are
going to have races who are spiritually bereft, who are
incredibly controlling - the kind of societies we would probably
not want to live in."

Indeed, Summers and the Allies claim that this is now being
demonstrated in humanity=92s encounter with technologically-
advanced extraterrestrials. "Everyone in the universe needs
resources," he says. "The higher the level of technology, the
more refined resources are required. It also means that you have
to interact in trade and commerce with other nations." However,
he notes that we humans are very na=EFve about the degree of
commerce and competition that apparently take place in this
well-inhabited part of the galaxy.

"These are commercial forces," Summers contends. "They must act
in a surreptitious manner and make it appear that humanity
desires their presence and activities here on earth."

According to Summers, "the Allies emphasize that our world is
very rare in its biological diversity - and the fact that it
hasn=92t been completely stripped clean by a highly
technologically advanced race." This makes Earth a prime target
for resource exploitation, and human beings are high on the list
of desirable commodities. He says that the second set of the
Allies=92 briefings, now available in an underground edition,
"paints a very dark picture of the intervention, a picture that
the intervention would never reveal to its representatives and
its apologists. It=92s very difficult for us to face, for we are a
biological resource ourselves." In essence, says Summers,
"There=92s a black market out there where these resources are
highly valued and sold."

Such extraterrestrial activities here are shrouded in secrecy,
the Allies argue, suggesting that the much-decried cover-up has
its origin with the ETs themselves. "The cover-up is critical to
their agenda," says Summers. "They=92re not here to destroy us;
they=92re here to use us. They certainly want us to be compliant."

To complicate matters, what amounts to a powerful propaganda
campaign is in place regarding the extraterrestrial presence.
"The deception is that we=92re made to think that it=92s here for
our benefit, that without it we will fail - we will destroy
ourselves, we will collapse, we will fall prey to predators in
the universe. And as the native peoples, being ignorant of life
beyond our borders, and believing and hoping as we do that
whoever we encounter would be there for our benefit, will tend
to make certain kinds of classic mistakes that have been
repeatedly made in the history of our own world. We certainly do
not want to make those kinds of mistakes here, and we are making
them already."

The Allies reveal the darker motives of the intervention, says
Summers, "to which we ascribe all kinds of benevolent qualities
and hopeful expectations." It is more likely, he suggests, that
the intervention is occurring because "we happen to be sitting
on a very wealthy planet that=92s being very mismanaged, and we=92re
despoiling it."

However, the tactics of the alien intervention are not difficult
for us to understand, he says. "In this day and age,
intervention isn=92t men with guns; intervention is men and women
with briefcases, cellphones and laptop computers. Every day
around the world intervention is being attempted, using means
that are very similar to the means being used by the
extraterrestrial intervention."

The extraterrestrial forces apparently excel in what Summers and
the Allies refer to as "the mental environment," where force is
not as important as persuasion and manipulation. Here Summers
suggests that even the current conflict between the Muslim and
Western worlds serves the extraterrestrial intervention. "The
United States, the only nation in the world that could really
oppose an intervention, gets embroiled in a civil war scenario
from which it cannot extract itself," he says. "It becomes
vilified by the rest of the world, and becomes immensely
weakened. Even its own population is divided, and faith in the
government has been further weakened."

"That=92s how interventions work," says Summers. "You lose faith
in your medicine man, you lose faith in your chief, you lose
faith in your ancient traditions, and it creates a power vacuum
that easily gets filled by something else."

Illustrating that this approach is not new, but in fact has been
practiced among humans for centuries, Summers quotes from Sun
Tzu=92s The Art of War: "The best policy is to use strategy,
influence and the trends of events to cause the adversary to
submit willingly. Be extremely subtle, even to the point of
formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of
soundlessness. Thereby you can be the directors of the
opponent=92s fate."

Despite such clever tactics, Summers claims, with the guidance
of the Allies the extraterrestrial intervention can be
understood and thwarted. The biggest problem to overcome, he
says, is human denial. "We don=92t want to know. And we don=92t want
anybody to tell us what we don=92t want to know."

Who are the extraterrestrials intervening in our world? "There
are several competing groups," says Summers, "made up of what
the Allies refer to as Collectives - large, multi-racial
commercial organizations. They are driven by the same needs that
drive us, with advanced technology and a greater social cohesion
than we do."

For Summers, these Collectives are somewhat analogous to our
planet=92s multinational corporations. "They=92re not
multidimensional," he says. "They=92re not time travelers. They
are physical beings who can do things we don=92t understand,
mostly because of technology."

However, the extraterrestrials do possess extraordinary
capabilities in the mental and psychological realm, he says. For
instance, "they can project images, and they can control
thinking to a certain degree." This is particularly dangerous in
religious fundamentalism, because "the intervention can produce
images of our saints and our holy people, and we can=92t tell the
difference between a projected apparition and a spiritual
apparition."

While these abilities appear very mysterious to us, says
Summers, we can still understand much about the intervention.
"We already know that whoever is here can fly in our skies at
will, take people at will, mutilate animals at will, do
incredible acts of display over our military facilities," he
says. "They can take you or your children any time they want and
they can do anything they want with you and you can=92t say boo
about it. And they=92re going to make you believe that it=92s for
your own good and that you should help them."

The Allies describe the abduction phenomenon as but one aspect
of the intervention. "The number of people being taken is fairly
great, and not all of them are being returned," Summers claims.
"We=92re dealing with something that is very, very grim. And if
you take every aspect of the UFO phenomenon and put it all
together, you=92re going to get a very alarming picture - if
you=92re willing to look."

For Summers, the extraterrestrial intervention is "the biggest
problem confronting humanity." Yet the vision of the Allies is
one of hope, he maintains, for they see the extraterrestrial
intervention as the one thing that could unite humanity, for
they reveal that "no one in the universe is going to save us.
Therefore, we have to save ourselves. And in so doing, we may
find the strength and unity that we=92ve never been able to
achieve before."

Summers emphasizes, "The only thing that a true ally of humanity
can do is to give us their wisdom. The big appeal of these
briefings is to enable us to get in touch with our own wisdom,
our spiritual wisdom, and the wisdom of nature."

How is humanity to prepare for contact with extraterrestrial
life? "First, you need to know what this is," says Summers. "You
have to overcome perhaps your ideas or theories. You have to
overcome the element of human denial. You have to see that you
can actually know something and do something."

"We=92ve been very disempowered," he explains, "not only by the
intervention but by our own governments and society. We=92re made
to be compliant people who do what=92s expected, without much
complaint. We=92re not trained to be advocates and groundbreaking
people doing something new."

Awareness is the first step to a human response to the
extraterrestrial intervention, says Summers. For him the Allies
briefings, and the larger body of teachings of which they are a
part, are an essential introduction to our cosmic education.
"You can treat the Allies=92 briefings as information. You can
treat them as another perspective. But that=92s not really what
they are. They=92re meant to be studied," he says, "not simply
read. They are meant to invoke within you your own clarity, your
own seeing."

What is Summers=92 role in all this? "I=92m not here to frighten
you," he says. "I=92m here to empower you, to tell you that you
have the strength to see, to know, and to act - and that it is
not too late to deal with this. I don=92t have the whole blueprint
that humanity will need to deal with this, but I do have a piece
of the wisdom that humanity will need."

And what of the Allies themselves? Sadly, having delivered their
report, these intrepid observers have left this region of space,
according to Summers, so their briefings are a one-time
communication. "Actually, they were driven out," he says. "But
what they=92ve given to us, according to them, is everything we
need to know to take it from here ourselves."

THE BEGINNINGS OF A HUMAN SOVEREIGNTY MOVEMENT?

The Allies=92 briefings have already inspired a measure of human
response to the extraterrestrial presence. At the end of his
MUFON workshop, Marshall Summers unveiled - and read - a
strongly-worded "Declaration of Human Sovereignty," drafted by a
small group of activists and advocates who are convinced it is
time for humanity to establish its own rules for engagement with
extraterrestrial forces and nations.

While the document is clearly based in part upon the United
States=92 Declaration of Independence, Summers notes that earlier
activists indirectly contributed to its development. Among them
was Dr. John Brandenburg, a plasma physicist and author who
unveiled his "Rainbow Declaration" at a 1990 MUFON symposium -
 and was nearly booed off the stage for presenting a "negative"
view of the aliens and calling for resistance to their invasive
activities. Elaine Douglass, of the now disbanded Operation
Right to Know (based in Washington, D.C.), later published a
more formal and somewhat legalistic revision of Brandenburg=92s
pioneering document, known as "The Declaration of the Rights of
the People of Earth."

Both Douglass and Brandenburg were on hand at the 35th annual
MUFON symposium in Denver to sign and endorse the new
Declaration of Human Sovereignty, which Summers says is "still a
work-in-progress."

The document, which can be viewed at www.humansovereignty.org,
enumerates fundamental rights and responsibilities that the
people of Earth can and should invoke not only for themselves
but for the sake of freedom everywhere in the universe. These
include the rights of sovereignty, planetary sanctity, sanctity
of biological and genetic material, occupation of sphere of
influence, and peaceful navigation.

The Declaration embodies a sobering assessment of the
extraterrestrial presence on and around Earth, enumerating a
withering list of abuses and violations of human freedom. The
language stirs a kind of planetary patriotism. For instance:

"Although the Earth has undergone a long history of
extraterrestrial visitation, the current situation is that the
People of Earth are now suffering the effects of a global
extraterrestrial intervention into human affairs. This
intervention employs a strategy of deception, manipulation, and
exploitation, the goal of which is control over humanity, which
will result in the loss of human freedom and self-determination.
It is now the sacred right and duty of the People of Earth to
oppose, resist, and repel this extraterrestrial intervention, to
declare and defend our sovereignty, our freedom, and our
independence from all extraterrestrial forces."

Finally, the Declaration sets forth a series of stringent
demands, including the dissolution of all existing treaties or
agreements between any humans and extraterrestrials, the
immediate departure of all alien forces from the entire Solar
System, the identification of all human-extraterrestrial
hybrids, and the return of all humans held in captivity by ETs.

Speaking on behalf of all humanity, the authors are careful to
declare that "the rights and privileges that we affirm here for
ourselves, we also affirm for all races of beings whom we might
encounter."

The framers of this document are hopeful that it will help spark
a movement for human freedom and sovereignty. "You have to see
something first," says Summers, "and then you have to begin
communicating about it. If that part doesn=92t happen, nothing
else does. This is a grass roots, from-the-bottom-up movement.
For if humanity does not rally, we will gradually lose our
freedom to foreign powers. We will have no voice in determining
what will happen, who can be here, and what they can do."

According to Summers, "This Declaration was not made simply for
us. It was also made for those governing powers who are watching
the Collectives=92 activities in our world, to make it known that
we are not compliant. For if we demonstrate displeasure with the
extraterrestrial intervention, the intervention will have to be
stopped."

The group plans to distribute their Declaration through one-on-
one communication, and through the Internet. More dramatically,
they intend to broadcast the message into space via
sophisticated satellite technology, in the hope that the
Declaration will eventually be monitored by administrative
bodies who are responsible for enforcing rules of conduct in
this region of the galaxy, rules that the intervening
extraterrestrials are routinely violating.

Clearly, this small band of activists takes seriously the
admonitions of the Allies of Humanity, as recorded in their
final briefing: "This is not a time for ambivalence or
complacency. This is not a time to simply project one=92s
grievances and mistrust upon the world. To the extent that
humanity is divided and unaware of life beyond its border, it is
vulnerable and without real security. Your opposition to one
another is misplaced. You have no defense against the outside."

-----








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   Aug > Aug 15

                CCCRN News: Formation Report #7 - Grand Bend

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 10:03:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:21:16 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Formation Report #7 - Grand Bend


CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

August 15, 2004

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


FORMATION REPORT #7 - GRAND BEND, ONTARIO

"Vesica Picses"-style set of four interlocking circles in wheat,
initially reported August 8 (confirmed August 13) but first seen
about July 21. Approximately 36.5 metres (120 feet) long. Near
location of Hensall, Ontario formation from 2003. Field had
unfortunately already been harvested before formation could be
examined on the ground, but pattern still visible. Initial
ground photos and survey diagrams are posted on the web site.
One digital ground photo taken August 13 contains an aerial
anomaly nicknamed the "amoeba" for it's odd shape with darker
spot inside it. Further details pending. This is the seventh
reported formation so far for 2004.

Also:

Researcher Nicholas Reiter has posted an update regarding his
examination of the "burned circle" in soybeans in Essex County,
Ontario from June 24. It seems this formation was most likely
lightning damage from thunderstorms in the area. His report
includes links to similar known cases:

http://www.theavalonfoundation.org/CCanalysis2.html

A survey diagram has been added to the web site for the Prince
George, British Columbia formation from July 12.

Some additional sample images from 2003 have been added to the
photo gallery on the web site.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an e-mail with either
Subscribe CCCRN News or Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the subject
line to: cccrnnews.nul

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, media and scientists

c. CCCRN, 2004







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              Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:18:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:23:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Rimmer


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:34:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:53:13 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:07:28 -0500
>>>Subject: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>Can you please give me a reference to any published sceptical
>>analysis of the Hill case which makes these claims? I would be
>>happy to tear it to pieces with my large pelican beak!

>Better sharpen your 'beak'... your argument is not with me, good
>sir. It is with Stanton Friedman. Better do your 'toenails',
>too. Pick up a copy of Wendy's compilation and start your
>education, Sir, and thanks for reading.

I thought not.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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                     Re: Descredit To The Field? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:37:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 16:55:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Descredit To The Field? - Hall


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:19:03 -0300
>Subject: Re: Descredit To The Field?

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:24:52 +0000
>>Subject: Descredit To The Field? [was: Factsheet On Salla's Termination]

>>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:19:08 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: Factsheet On Salla's Termination

<snip>

>>The enemy is not Seth Shostak. The enemy is all these kooks and
>>weridos who give "ufology" a bad name, and you seem to be part
>>and parcel of them when you appear with them.

>If we don't appear, we leave even more air-time for the
>wierdos. How does that benefit the serious approach to UFOs?

>>You and the others appear to be totally lacking in
>>discrimination.

>>This sort of behavior allows the news media and all brands of
>>skeptics to say, see "ufology" is 99% nutty with an occasional
>>sane or halfway rational person thrown in.

>So if we do not provide sane rationality, would the news media
>then say Ufology is 100% nutty with nary a sane voice to be
>heard? I for one am far more concerned with reaching the bulk of
>the public than the skeptics, who, so far as I am concerned, are
>unreachable. I think the sane and rational people deserve to
>have models whose arguments they can quote rather than leaving
>the airwaves with no sane voices.

>>I say there definitely would be a greater appreciation of
>>something more deserving of the now-silly name "ufology" if you
>>did boycott them.

>Dick I really don't understand. Do you want our books burned too
>so the libraries would not be cluttered with voises of reason?

Stan,

What kind of asinine comment is this? So now I'm a book burner
because I disagree with you on one point? Where did I say you
should never speak out? Where, for heavens sake, did I speak out
against voices of reason?

>A few years back I appeared on Coast to Coast and offered some
>free materials (8 pages) to anybody sending an SASE to me at POB
>958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958. I received about 1000 requests, all
>but 5 with theSASE - thank goodnes.

>More than 200 Post It Notes were also received on the SASEs from
>people thanking me for doing what I had been doing for 10, 20,
>30 years. I don't know these people. But obviously my views had
>had an impact on their thinking. Is this a bad thing?

Totally irrelevant to my point.

>Sure media appearancs help sell books. Is that a bad thing or
>should the book stores be left to the weirdoes and nasty noisy
>negativists?

Totally irrelevant.

>I would be very happy if more people bought your books which
>might have happened if you had done more appearances and taken
>away some of the airtime given to the bad guys.

I have done lots of interviews, in case you haven't noticed,
which again is utterly beside the point.

>Nature abhors a vacuum. If there is space it will be filled by
>those available even if they are wierdoes. I will admit it is
>inconvenient for me to be on Coast to Coast from 3-6AM and to be
>answering my toll free number for days afterward. It seems to me
>a small price for me to pay for the opportunity to defeat Dr.
>Seth Shostak.

Do you really have the ego to think that you "defeated Seth
Shostak" in any meaningful way other than on debating points? Do
you think that impressed anyone other than the choir?.

>And who is it who would have a greater "appreciation of
>something more deserving of the now silly name of ufology"? How
>would they know about it if there were fewer voices of reason
>raised publicly?

Utterly beside the point; nowhere have I said - despite your
constant repetition of this falsehood - that reasonable people
shouldn't speak out. I speak out all the time.

>Sorry, Dick, but I want to reach the world more than I want to
>reach the high and lofty world of the "respectable and sane" and
>quiet voices of ufology. If I have to do battle with the forces
>of wierdism and skepticbunkdom, tis a small price to pay. I can
>only ask why your voice isn't raised more out there?

So I'll award you a "Hero of Ufology Medal" if that's what you
are looking for bravely taking on the bad guys, as you
apparently see it.

Now listen to my point, and re-read what I said, and stop your
distortions and misrepresentation of what I said: By appearing
in the kind of venue we were talking about, that is along with
lots of kooks and weirdos and con-men, you can (and in my
opinion you do) do harm. I clearly was talking about that kind
of venue.

There are lots of other venues available. There is absolutely no
need to appear with and, to the outside viewer, seem to be just
another crazy ufologist and seem to agree with the main thrust
of their approach. Serious venues are another story entirely.
Maybe you just can't tell the difference.

Like it or lump it, that's my firmly held opinion. Now I think
I'll go burn a book.


 - Dick








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             Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:47:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 16:57:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:18:37 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:34:14 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:53:13 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>>Can you please give me a reference to any published sceptical
>>>analysis of the Hill case which makes these claims? I would be
>>>happy to tear it to pieces with my large pelican beak!

>>Better sharpen your 'beak'... your argument is not with me, good
>>sir. It is with Stanton Friedman. Better do your 'toenails',
>>too. Pick up a copy of Wendy's compilation and start your
>>education, Sir, and thanks for reading.

>I thought not.

Oh piffle Mr. Rimmer... another one of your moopy and
duplicitous dodges around the ufological Mulberry bush. I'm not
proposing my authority about the Starmap in the Hill case via my
review; I'm just making a report to _you_, Sir, among others,
that over the years Mr. Friedman has been _convincing_ while
you, among others, have been decidedly _less_ than same. Have
_another_ thought.


alienview.nul
www.AlienView.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

Photo Album: http://www.alienview.net/AVAlbum.htm
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                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 14:24:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:00:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:05:45 -0700
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:07:44 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>>>From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:21:48 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>In one Menlo Park, CA beer joint, I had the displeasure of
>bartending two clowns arguing; ' who is the best singer in the
>world'. One fajool was arguing for Roger Miller... " Trailers
>for sale or rent... rooms to let fifty cent... Aaaahm a MAyn of
>means by not means....."

Larry, I take it that it's been a _long_ time since you heard
that recording by the late Roger Miller. Unlike you I gather, I
have nothing in the slightest against twangy singing (to the
contrary, I am entirely in favorite of it), but in point of fact
Miller was not a twangy singer in any sense of the word, and you
are not accurately representing his phrasing. Actually, he was
a strikingly original figure, an urban and urbane artist, whose
work is notably wry and witty. Those who knew and worked with
him (or even listened carefully to the songs he wrote) regarded
him as quite bright and very, very funny.

Even before his death (in 1992) he was being recognized as an
important popular songwriter. There may be a better song about
divorce, which I know something about, than "Husbands and
Wives," but it doesn't immediately come to mind. He eventually
went on to write the music for the Broadway hit Big River, for
which he won two Tony awards (for Best Musical and Outstanding
Score). As a songwriter myself, I'd have been proud to carry
his luggage anywhere.


Jerry Clark









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                       Re: Question About Artists And

From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:50:14 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:00:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Question About Artists And


>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:07:44 -0400
>Subject: Re: Question About Artists And Abductees/Contactees

>It seems to me that there's a lot of "modern" classical music -
>20th century and beyond - that you don't like. That's your
>privilege; nobody's forcing you to like it. But when you
>decree that it's not art, or that it won't survive, I think
>you're being quite arbitrary. You're trying to prove that your
>tastes are more than just your opinion, but that they have the
>weight and authority of cold, hard facts. Which, in art, just
>plain doesn't work.

Greg,

You're quite right - I foolishly disregarded my own (published)
advice "No two people can unfailingly communicate 'essential
truth' in philosophy, science or music (art)"

[< bigthorts > in Google for full text]

I haven't even got the excuse of being "passionate" about music.
Remind myself to think before typing.


Cheers

Ray D

Sunday's PS I posted above abject retraction Saturday, when I'd
sobered up and read Greg's eminently reasonable criticism, Think
Greg got the mail but obviously the List didn't for some reason.

Larry, here's your copy.

(Why do we all feel we're experts on something we like doing?)
best regards

RD

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







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                     Re: The Brocking Report - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:07:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:02:34 -0400
Subject: Re: The Brocking Report - Lehmberg


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:52:20 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: The Brocking Report

>So Rod Brock has gone. I can only surmise at the reasons but my
>guess is he is another victim of the bullying and strutting that
>masquerades on this List as ufology.

<snip>

Wow, Mr. Miller. This seems a little out of balance. If I'm one
of the "bullying strutters" (a little over the top even for
characterization) I can hardly apologize. I won't stand by and
let an ideologue _sneer_ assumptive, partisan, insulting, and
inordinately inaccurate comments at a friend of mine, forgetting
that Mr. Brock seemed perfectly capable of giving as good as he
got. He didn't seem to be very collegiate with persons who
disagreed with him, or with whom he disagreed.....

Moreover, I reviewed the last couple of weeks worth of posts
(vis a vis Mr. Brock) and it would seem to me that evidence of
strutting and bullying, while lacking in the aggregate, could
certainly have gotten some criticism before Mr. Brock stomped
off in pique because a few of us refuse to genuflect at the
pelicanist idol.....


alienview.nul
www.AlienView.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

Photo Album: http://www.alienview.net/AVAlbum.htm
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                      The Trindade Photos & Motion Blur

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:54:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:03:51 -0400
Subject: The Trindade Photos & Motion Blur


The thing that puzzled me the most about the series of
enlargements of the Trindade object on Mori's web page was how
its shape changed from one image to the next. (The second most
puzzling thing was how the dissimilar images could be perceived
by Mr. Mori and others as evidence that the same fake object had
been photographed and then inverted, but that's beside the
point).

In the last go-round about the Barauna photographs, Brad Sparks
suggested that the shape changes could have been caused by
motion blur. This makes complete  sense, but I was still unclear
as to why its shape in the third image is so radically different
from the other three. It's the only one of the photographs that
really shows the famous "saturn-like" shape of the object. The
others photos show the object's height markedly smaller relative
to its width, making it look more like the "traditional" flying
saucer shape.

The lack of apparent motion blur in Photo 3 suggests that the
object was moving much more slowly at that point than it was in
the other photos. But why would the object stop moving in that
particular photograph rather than the one of the others? None of
the accounts I've read have stated that the object ever came to
a complete stop or slowed down appreciably. The likely answer,
ironically enough, is on another "skeptic" web page by Timothy
Printy to which Mori's web page has a link:

http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/trin4.html

About three-quarters down the page is a map showing what Barauna
said was the object's path. What's interesting about it is that
the third photo is the closest to the point where the reversal
would have occurred. If the object were real, then it would have
_had_ to appear to come to a nearly complete stop at the point
where it reversed course from the vantage point of the
observers.

Printy says this map is wrong and makes a big deal of it. It's
hard to see why, since it's obviously not drawn to scale (and it
depicts the ship as a three-masted Spanish galleon!). Printy's
own reconstruction of the directions shows the same sequence:
the first photograph is to the far right of the observer the
second to the left of the first, the third photo farthest to the
left and the fourth again back to the far right (the fourth
photograph of the object is labeled "P6" because Photos 4 and 5
didn't show the object).

According to Printy, a problem with this is that Barauna said
somewwhere that the object was moving the _fastest_ when he took
Photo 3. But Barauna could have simply been mistaken. Or the
object could well have been moving at a high rate of speed
before and after it went into a sharp turn. If it had executed a
turn, then its motion would momentarily have been either
directly toward or away from the observer , with no component of
velocity in the image plane that would cause blurring in a
photograph.

Regardless of which is the case, rather than being a problem, if
Barauna really did say the object was moving fastest near where
he took Photo 3, it supports the authenticity of the photos.
Being a competent photographer, Barauna would probably have been
quite familiar with motion blur. If the photos were a hoax, he
might have even wanted to make them more convincing by faking
varying degrees of motion blur and then taking the sequence of
photos with the camera looking in the proper directions to
support the course reversal he later claimed. But then he'd have
to have _said_ something about motion blur and how the object
would have to appear to slow down when it reversed directions.
The average man on the street (or journalist) isn't going to
notice something like that.

It makes no sense at all that he'd go to all the trouble to add
this subtle little grace note to his alleged hoax and then never
say anything about the implications of the faked motion blur.
Instead, his assertion (according to Printy) that the object was
going faster near where the third photograph was taken only has
served to obscure it for quite some time. As far as I know, Brad
Sparks was the first person to notice the apparent motion blur
and I'm the first to notice that it's consistent with the course
reversal Barauna described. And it only took 40-plus years and
well after Mr. Barauna's death for that to happen.







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   Aug > Aug 16

              Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:29:12 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:05:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Rimmer


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:47:15 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind

><snip>

>>>>Can you please give me a reference to any published sceptical
>>>>analysis of the Hill case which makes these claims? I would be
>>>>happy to tear it to pieces with my large pelican beak!

>>>Better sharpen your 'beak'... your argument is not with me, good
>>>sir. It is with Stanton Friedman. Better do your 'toenails',
>>>too. Pick up a copy of Wendy's compilation and start your
>>>education, Sir, and thanks for reading.

>>I thought not.

>Oh piffle Mr. Rimmer... another one of your moopy and
>duplicitous dodges around the ufological Mulberry bush. I'm not
>proposing my authority about the Starmap in the Hill case via my
>review; I'm just making a report to _you_, Sir, among others,
>that over the years Mr. Friedman has been _convincing_ while
>you, among others, have been decidedly _less_ than same. Have
>_another_ thought.

Sorry, but you've lost me here. You made some remarks about some
remarkably silly comments which you claimed certain (unnamed)
sceptics had made about the Hill case. I thought they were silly
too, if you had reported them correctly, so I asked you if you
would refer me to which sceptics had made those comments, and
where. I do not recall Mr. Friedman being involved in the
exchange at all, and I do not recall the Fish starmap being
discussed.

You seem unable or unwilling to give me these references, and
instead start waffling on about irrelevancies which have no
connection with my original question. It is therefore clear that
you are unable to substantiate the silly comments which you have
attributed to certain (unnamed) sceptics, so I must assume that
they are a figment of your imagination.

No change there, then... Sir.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 16

               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:22:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:09:35 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Sparks


>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:56:34 -0300
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:11:36 -0500
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>You'd have to ask him why he put up that silly web page. All I
>>know is that it's highly misleading to support a claim of
>>hoaxing with images produced by processing techniques that are
>>absurdly anachronistic for the time of the alleged hoax. I'll
>>try to be more charitable than Mr. Rimmer usually is and assume
>>that Kentaro, in his zeal to debunk the Trindade incident,
>>didn't realize the illogic of what he was doing. It looks like
>>an act of thoughtless desperation more than anything else.
>>That's my own "pychosocial" theory, at least.

>You don't have to ask me. You just have to read what I wrote on
>the page:

>http://www.geocities.com/airsmither/trind.htm

>"This was digitally made, using a multiplier to merge the two
>images, and is not provided with the intention to be an accurate
>depiction of what would be the results with an actual film. It's
>just a nice illustration to help to explain the suggestion for
>those who may have a difficulty to understand the idea."
>(emphasis added)
<snip>

>Tim Printy has just reproduced, on film -- without "digital
>techniques" -- the proposed use of an internal mask. And it
>worked: http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/trin6.html

Printy apparently agrees with me that a double exposure is a
physical impossibility, but his proposed "internal mask" hoax
method (a type of montage) is laughable. Do you guys even _look_
at this stuff before spouting off your debunking declarations??
Just _look_ at Printy's dark "Saturn" image! It looks grossly
_distorted_, along with every single other image in the photo,
like diffraction-type wave effects around everything! It looks
like the photo was taken through the water of a cheap aquarium.
There is simply no freakin way this is anything like the
extremely sharp and clear Trindade UFO photos where the images
have no such cheap-looking diffraction-like distortions, and the
images are sharp down to at least the 25-micron level on the
scale of the negatives. Printy has thus actually proven the
exact opposite of what he claims, he has actually proven the
physical impossibility of an "internal mask" type hoax, using
even 2004 film techniques.

And as I pointed out on UpDates back in Nov 2003 Mori's "island"
type image is completely blacked out, despite having all these
modern computer digital techniques available. It obviously looks
nothing like the actual island scenery in the Trindade photos,
which as I have said are sharp and clear across the entire
density range from lightest to darkest, down to at least the 25-
micron level, no matter how dark the portion of the island scene
you study except at the most extremely darkest (at about the
bottom 3% of the density scale the resolution finally degrades
from 25 microns).

As for Printy's points about time lapse between photos based on
cloud formations (see his webpage), where he states "it is
amazing that previous examinations by UFOlogists never noticed
this problem with the images," in fact I had already studied not
only Cloud Patterns but also Ocean Wave Patterns back in Sept
2002 when I received high-quality first-generation prints to
study, thus long before Mori came along in 2003 (who along with
Printy never seem to have thought of the Ocean Wave Patterns).
These prove quite conclusively that the photos were all taken on
the same day and approximate time, and must fit within the
overall sighting duration of 1-3 minutes otherwise the
distinctive ocean wave patterns would have moved farther than
the approximately 50 meters of displacement that can be readily
measured in the photos.

The Ocean Wave Patterns can be located quite precisely on the
ocean surface whereas the Cloud Patterns suffer from the
difficulty of not being sure how high and how far away.
Scientific analysis therefore must prefer the time lapse
indicators from Ocean Wave Patterns over that of the highly
uncertain Cloud Patterns.

Martin Shough has tackled the difficult problem of analysis of
prevailing meteorological conditions over the Trindade region in
January and found that quite high speed winds (and thus clouds)
are found then. Martin has also studied Printy's "internal mask"
hoax technique in depth and other arguments.





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   Aug > Aug 16

               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:56:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:13:40 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming


>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:56:34 -0300
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:11:36 -0500
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>You'd have to ask him why he put up that silly web page. All I
>>know is that it's highly misleading to support a claim of
>>hoaxing with images produced by processing techniques that are
>>absurdly anachronistic for the time of the alleged hoax. I'll
>>try to be more charitable than Mr. Rimmer usually is and assume
>>that Kentaro, in his zeal to debunk the Trindade incident,
>>didn't realize the illogic of what he was doing. It looks like
>>an act of thoughtless desperation more than anything else.
>>That's my own "pychosocial" theory, at least.

>You don't have to ask me. You just have to read what I wrote on
>the page:

>http://www.geocities.com/airsmither/trind.htm

>"This was digitally made, using a multiplier to merge the two
>images, and is not provided with the intention to be an accurate
>depiction of what would be the results with an actual film. It's
>just a nice illustration to help to explain the suggestion for
>those who may have a difficulty to understand the idea."
>(emphasis added)

Sorry if you think I took your statement out of context, but
your "explanation" doesn't change the fact that you used a
blatantly anachronistic digital technique to get results that
you think support your claims and it does not help anyone to
understand anything.

>Tim Printy has just reproduced, on film -- without "digital
>techniques" -- the proposed use of an internal mask. And it
>worked: http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/trin6.html

An _internal_ mask? That means that Barauna would have been
messing around with changing masks in order to get the different
shapes the object took on out in full view of everyone (and
opening the camera in the sunlight, which I would presume would
not be a good idea, either).

However, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of a double-exposure
on the grounds of physical impossibility (the Brazilian navy
analysis didn't rule it out, either). It would have to have been
done prior to taking the Trindade photos, not after, in order to
fool the captain of the ship who personally saw Barauna develop
the film. I suppose the effect might be achieved by making the
pre-exposure of a very dark object on a slightly less-dark
background. The second exposure would show the object darker
than the sky. But that would introduce a risk that on the second
exposure showing the island and the sky, you'd get a transparent
UFO with the clouds showing through, similar to one of the
attempted replications of Barauna's photos on a web page that
Mr. Mori's article cites.

Even if Barauna had pre-exposed the film in his lab, he would
still need to have had the commplicity of those who claimed to
witness the object. That includes unnamed naval personnel
referred to on the CUFO article I noted in a previous message.

http://www.cufos.org/Trindade_New_Evidence_article.html

According to the captain of the ship (_not_ Barauna):

"A strong emotional upset was observed in all persons who
sighted the object, including the photographer, civilians and
members of the ship=B9s crew."

To call the thing what it is, the "thesis" that Printy, Mori,
Rimmer, et. al. are proposing is a conspiracy theory. Its main
drawback is that there's no evidence of a conspiracy.








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   Aug > Aug 16

                   Re: Serpent Mound To Mothman - Stanford

From: Ray Stanford <dinotracker.nul>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 23:23:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:20:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Serpent Mound To Mothman - Stanford


>From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul>
>To: Mothman News <lcoleman.nul>
>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 07:02:57 -0400
>Subject: Serpent Mound To Mothman

>Source: The Akron Beacon Journal - Ohio

>http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/9370126.htm?1c

>Sun, Aug. 15, 2004
>Beacon Journal
>Akron, Ohio

>Sleuth for Mothman

>Some weird attractions are too big for one state; stop in W.Va.
>for eerie fun

>By Denise Grollmus
>Beacon Journal staff writer

>Today, we wrap up our three-week look at some of the more
>unusual spots in Ohio. Today's attractions would make an ideal
>three-day, two-night eccentric Ohio adventure. It cheats a bit
>as it includes a skip and a jump across the Ohio River into West
>Virginia territory - Point Pleasant, to be exact.

<snip>

>Serpent Mound: At1,330 feet-long, Ohio's Serpent Mound in Locust
>Grove near Peebles is the most famous of all effigy mounds in
>the United States.

>The head of the serpent, with what appears to be an egg in its
>mouth, is said to point to the summer solstice sunset and the
>coils also appear to purposefully point in the direction of the
>winter solstice sunrise and the equinox sunrise.

>No one knows for certain who built it or why, though the mound
>has been associated with two different groups - the Adena
>Indians (800 B.C. to A.D. 1) and the Fort Ancient Indians
>(around A.D. 1000).

>The mound is also extremely curious because of its location in
>an area that is composed of extremely faulted and folded
>bedrock, an uncommon geographic characteristic for Ohio.

>Some have speculated that the unusual makeup of the land is due
>to a volcano eruption or a meteorite strike, but no volcanic
>matter or meteorite debris have been found.

Thanks, Loren, for sharing that article including one of my
favorite places to visit, the wonderful Serpent Mound and its
adjacent 6.4 mile-in-diameter cosmic impact structure that is
about 320 million years of age - the impact structure, not the
mound, of course. :)

I just thought some who are unfamiliar with the situation might
want to realize that the author's information on the impact
structure and the mound, also, is very much out-of-date, and
seems maybe to derive from a badly-needs-to-be-changed bit of
antiquated 'information' posted in a frame on the Serpent Mound
Museum wall. Well, at least it was there last time I visited a
few years back.

The impact structure is now proven to be exactly that, and its
origin is not any longer in question. For reference one might
see, among other available papers:

Carlton, R. W., C. Koeberl, M. T. Baranoski, and G. A.
Schumacher (1998a) Discovery of microscopic evidence for
shock metamorphism at the Serpent Mound structure,
south-central Ohio; confirmation of an origin by
impact. Earth and Planetary Science Letters. vol. 162
no. 1-4, pp. 177-185.

Carlton, R. W., C. Koeberl, M. T. Baranoski, and G. A.
Schumacher (1998b) Discovery of planar deformation
features at the Serpent Mound disturbance, south-central
Ohio; unequivocal evidence for an impact. Geological
Society of America Abstracts with Programs. vol. 30,
no. 2, p. 8.

I would add that it is no puzzle that meteorites have not been
found in or around the impact structure simply because a cosmic
body (whether asteroid or comet) massive enough to make such a
gigantic structure becomes totally vaporized upon impact due to
transfer of kinetic energy into thermal energy. The earth's
atmosphere does not retard such a massive body to below cosmic
velocity, and the result is a 'mega-megaton' (of TNT) explosion
that transfers the cosmic body into vapor.

Why, then, do we find meteorites around the famous meteorite
impact structure in Arizona? Well, for one thing, by
comparison, that impactor in Arizona was a 'pipsqueak'. Note
that the Arizona crater is merely about a half mile across,
roughly 1/13 the size of the relatively huge Serpent Mound
impact structure. Also, note that the Arizona crater is a
relative 'new kid on the block', at a mere 50,000 years of age.
 Meteorites found in the area were those that had scattered,
pre-impact, while the main mass was totally vaporized and its
nickel-iron vapor was carried by the prevaling wind to the
north-east of the crater, where it condensed as nickel-iron
droplets. Vast numbers of those droplets have magnetically been
collected for scientific study. Some are even available for
sale on the internet.

In the much earlier Ohio impact, even if some cosmic material
had been pre-terrestrially scattered around the huge main
impactor and thus escaped the gigantic explosion, one can expect
any type of meteorite to have completely terrestrialized and
become unrecognizable after 320 million years. To put into
perspective, the Serpent Mound impact structure was formed 90
million years before the earliest known dinosaurs.

One summer day a few years back, as my three children and I
stoop atop the observation tower at the Serpent Mound, I
pondered the resemblance of that great man-made structure to the
fiery trail (distorted by upper-atmospheric winds into a sinuous
course) that undoubtedly formed in association with the birth of
the impact structure, and wondered whether some Fort Ancient
culture* shaman (or shamaness?) might have designed the mound as
result of a 320-million-year-retro-cognitive vision of an
incredibly high-energy event that was glimpsed, somehow,
inwardly. I thought that perhaps a vision might have been
triggered by some type of 'energy' unknown to us, but stored in
the very rock of the area, where some quartz crystals were
suddenly transformed into, e.g. Coesite, a high-temperature,
high-pressure polymorph of quartz, and composed of the same
chemistry as quartz, SiO2, but having a different crystalline
structure. I wondered whether that quick crystal-state
transformation might have somehow 'recorded' the event and a
person of shamanistic mind somehow might have just tuned into
what happened and was so moved as to have the vision image
constructed of earth. Perhaps to a Fort Ancient* 'sensitive', a
vision of what happened might have been perceived as a fiery
serpent in the sky with an egg in its mouth.

My speculation on the inspiration for Serpent Mound, on that
summer day, may have been pure fantasy, but there is a well-
known nocturnal photo of a luminous upper-atmosphere meteor
trail taken out west several decades ago, that shows a glowing
image strikingly like the shape of Serpent Mound.

We will never know for sure, of course, what inspired creation
of the 1,330-foot-long Serpent Mound, but regardless of the
nature of its creative inspiration, what remains is probably
this world's most magnificent ancient earth structure, and it
should not be missed by anyone who appreciates such works of
human creativity or who wonders at their builder's purposes.

See and enjoy it on-site, if you can. Hours and dates that the
site is open:

http://www.ohiohistory.org/places/serpent/

* Two samples of wood charcoal were obtained by archaeologists
from undisturbed parts of Serpent Mound. Both yielded a date of
ca. A.D.1070, suggesting that the effigy was actually built by
people of the Fort Ancient culture (A.D. 900-1600), a
Mississippian group that lived in the central Ohio Valley, and
not by the much earlier Adena people, as had been previously
speculated by archaeologists.


Ray Stanford







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   Aug > Aug 17

               NM Gov. Richardson Digs For More UFO Disclosure

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:25:42 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:16:16 -0400
Subject: NM Gov. Richardson Digs For More UFO Disclosure


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/08/16/MNGAK88OQQ1.DTL

Nifty story about New Mexican Gov. Richardson's interest
in getting more info out on UFOs.

Is this the first time a Governor stepped up to the plate
and made such a brave swing?

If so, it could start a trend. Like I said in an earlier thread
about 'Global UFO Secrecy' I can't figure out how this
secrecy is so pervasive. You'ld figure somewhere somehow
someone would have some proof that'd shake the rafters.

Will be interesting to see if other Governors and such grow
a pair like Richardson or sit back and cower.


Best,

Greg






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   Aug > Aug 17

             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:30:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:18:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:29:12 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:47:15 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind

>><snip>

>>>>>Can you please give me a reference to any published sceptical
>>>>>analysis of the Hill case which makes these claims? I would be
>>>>>happy to tear it to pieces with my large pelican beak!

>>>>Better sharpen your 'beak'... your argument is not with me, good
>>>>sir. It is with Stanton Friedman. Better do your 'toenails',
>>>>too. Pick up a copy of Wendy's compilation and start your
>>>>education, Sir, and thanks for reading.

>>>I thought not.

>>Oh piffle Mr. Rimmer... another one of your moopy and
>>duplicitous dodges around the ufological Mulberry bush. I'm not
>>proposing my authority about the Starmap in the Hill case via my
>>review; I'm just making a report to _you_, Sir, among others,
>>that over the years Mr. Friedman has been _convincing_ while
>>you, among others, have been decidedly _less_ than same. Have
>>_another_ thought.

>Sorry, but you've lost me here. You made some remarks about some
>remarkably silly comments which you claimed certain (unnamed)
>sceptics had made about the Hill case. I thought they were silly
>too, if you had reported them correctly, so I asked you if you
>would refer me to which sceptics had made those comments, and
>where. I do not recall Mr. Friedman being involved in the
>exchange at all, and I do not recall the Fish starmap being
>discussed.

>You seem unable or unwilling to give me these references, and
>instead start waffling on about irrelevancies which have no
>connection with my original question. It is therefore clear that
>you are unable to substantiate the silly comments which you have
>attributed to certain (unnamed) sceptics, so I must assume that
>they are a figment of your imagination.

>No change there, then... Sir.


My review of Wendy Connors' stands, Mr. Rimmer. One man's
irrelevancies is another man's sharp stick in your eye. You
wanted some exercise for your 'beak', don't blame me if you're
concerned that Stanton Friedman would take said beak down past
the gum-line. With regard to the Hill case and the Starmap,
Friedman has been measured and convincing, your lot... decidedly
not.

...You would mock my civility, Sir? As a pretence to what...
exactly?


alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Aug > Aug 17

                  Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:06:02 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:20:33 -0400
Subject: Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo - Myers


>From: Victoria Jack <isis777.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:47:28 -0400
>Subject: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo

>********************************************

>THE BAY AREA UFO EXPO
>2351 Alexis Lane ~ Tracy, CA 95377

>For Immediate Release...

>THE BAY AREA UFO EXPO

>August 28-29 2004

>Westin Santa Clara
>5100 Great America Parkway
>Santa Clara, CA 95051

>You've seen "Taken" and "The 4,400" on television. You've
>experienced the awe and wonder of films like "Close Encounters"
>and "Contact." Now get ready for the reality and truth behind
>these amazing stories.

<snip>

>Also presenting this year are William Henry, James Gilliland
>Lloyd Pye, Jaime Maussan, Richard Dolan, Michael Horn, Tricia
>McCannon and many more! Our special guests include George Noory
>of Coast To Coast AM, The Sci-Fi Channel, Bill Birnes of UFO
>Magazine and Sean David Morton.

Sean David Morton associated with "truth" and "reality"... now
there's a laugh.  Sad to see some are still willing to promote
this phony...


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"









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                Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Mori

From: Kentaro Mori <airdown.nul>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:15:40 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:22:30 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Mori


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:22:54 EDT
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:56:34 -0300
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>Tim Printy has just reproduced, on film -- without "digital
>>techniques" -- the proposed use of an internal mask. And it
>>worked: http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/trin6.html

>Printy apparently agrees with me that a double exposure is a
>physical impossibility, but his proposed "internal mask" hoax
>method (a type of montage) is laughable. Do you guys even _look_
>at this stuff before spouting off your debunking declarations??
>Just _look_ at Printy's dark "Saturn" image! It looks grossly
>_distorted_, along with every single other image in the photo,
>like diffraction-type wave effects around everything! It looks
>like the photo was taken through the water of a cheap aquarium.

Do you guys even _read_ at the stuff before spouting off your
debunking declarations? From Printy's work:

"This was my first attempt and I did crop the image to hide some
problems (after inserting the mask, I did not close the door all
the way and light leaked onto the left side of the image) but it
demonstrates the technique."

>There is simply no freakin way this is anything like the
>extremely sharp and clear Trindade UFO photos where the images
>have no such cheap-looking diffraction-like distortions, and the
>images are sharp down to at least the 25-micron level on the
>scale of the negatives. Printy has thus actually proven the
>exact opposite of what he claims, he has actually proven the
>physical impossibility of an "internal mask" type hoax, using
>even 2004 film techniques.

You didn't comment on Printy's subsequent attempt with a Holga,
with a much clearer "UFO". Furthermore, you would have to
compare Printy's results with at least a first generation print
made made by an experienced photographer who could have, if he
wished, treated the negatives anyway he wanted, at his own lab.

>And as I pointed out on UpDates back in Nov 2003 Mori's "island"
>type image is completely blacked out, despite having all these
>modern computer digital techniques available. It obviously looks
>nothing like the actual island scenery in the Trindade photos,
>which as I have said are sharp and clear across the entire
>density range from lightest to darkest, down to at least the 25-
>micron level, no matter how dark the portion of the island scene
>you study except at the most extremely darkest (at about the
>bottom 3% of the density scale the resolution finally degrades
>from 25 microns).

If you could provide a histogram of the photo, that would surely
help analyze objectively your claims. With an internal mask
Printy proved it's possible to have "the roof at the lower left
was darkest with a luminosity of about 20, the 'UFO' was higher
with a value of 38, and the sky was about 150". That still
doesn't make the darkest points "completely blacked out", but if
we consider the histogram of the "island" image I discussed, it
suggests clearly a contrast enhancement. I argued this on
January:

http://www.geocities.com/airsmither/trindde.htm

>As for Printy's points about time lapse between photos based on
>cloud formations (see his webpage), where he states "it is
>amazing that previous examinations by UFOlogists never noticed
>this problem with the images," in fact I had already studied not
>only Cloud Patterns but also Ocean Wave Patterns back in Sept
>2002 when I received high-quality first-generation prints to
>study, thus long before Mori came along in 2003 (who along with
>Printy never seem to have thought of the Ocean Wave Patterns).

Printy could barely be blamed for not giving you credit since
you didn't publish your work yet. Nevertheless, his puzzlement
is more than justified: even allowing that you analyzed this
element on September 2002, to which I don't doubt you did, no
UFOlogist seems to have given any care to it until you.

>These prove quite conclusively that the photos were all taken on
>the same day and approximate time, and must fit within the
>overall sighting duration of 1-3 minutes otherwise the
>distinctive ocean wave patterns would have moved farther than
>the approximately 50 meters of displacement that can be readily
>measured in the photos.

We eagerly await your work. You made several claims that need to be
verified.

>The Ocean Wave Patterns can be located quite precisely on the
>ocean surface whereas the Cloud Patterns suffer from the
>difficulty of not being sure how high and how far away.
>Scientific analysis therefore must prefer the time lapse
>indicators from Ocean Wave Patterns over that of the highly
>uncertain Cloud Patterns.

That should be very interesting. "Ocean Wave Patterns" are
rapidly changing patterns, compared to clouds. The changes are
also much more constrained, again compared to clouds. On the
series of four photos, there's a significant overlapping only
between the first and the last photo. I wonder how certain can
an analysis be between two photos. Of course, we have the same
problems if we consider the clouds.

>Martin Shough has tackled the difficult problem of analysis of
>prevailing meteorological conditions over the Trindade region in
>January and found that quite high speed winds (and thus clouds)
>are found then.

Even taking his work at face value, it suggests that it would be
_possible_ that a time lapse of _at least_ two minutes could
account for the clouds change. And that making several
allowances. The time lapse, from his own work (assuming it
correctly measured cloud displacements, which includes assuming
that the clouds are indeed the same), could have been greater
than 5 minutes for a wind speed of 30 knots. From 2 to 5
minutes, that's already a significant difference with the
testimony.

>Martin has also studied Printy's "internal mask"
>hoax technique in depth and other arguments.

Indeed, he has studied it. His comments on it are interesting,
and quite different from yours. At least he didn't claim it was
"laughable".

If anyone is following this discussion, there're much curious things to see
at:

http://www.geocities.com/airsmither/trindade_index.htm


Mori







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                      Re: The Brocking Report - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:22:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:23:41 -0400
Subject: Re: The Brocking Report - Miller


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:07:13 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Brocking Report

>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:52:20 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: The Brocking Report

>>So Rod Brock has gone. I can only surmise at the reasons but my
>>guess is he is another victim of the bullying and strutting that
>>masquerades on this List as ufology.

><snip>

>Wow, Mr. Miller. This seems a little out of balance. If I'm one
>of the "bullying strutters" (a little over the top even for
>characterization) I can hardly apologize. I won't stand by and
>let an ideologue _sneer_ assumptive, partisan, insulting, and
>inordinately inaccurate comments at a friend of mine, forgetting
>that Mr. Brock seemed perfectly capable of giving as good as he
>got. He didn't seem to be very collegiate with persons who
>disagreed with him, or with whom he disagreed.....

>Moreover, I reviewed the last couple of weeks worth of posts
>(vis a vis Mr. Brock) and it would seem to me that evidence of
>strutting and bullying, while lacking in the aggregate, could
>certainly have gotten some criticism before Mr. Brock stomped
>off in pique because a few of us refuse to genuflect at the
>pelicanist idol.....

Actually Alfred, I did not have you in mind when I made the
comments.

And to be fair, I can see the counter argument which is that Mr.
Brock is a big boy and can take care of himself. If he can't
stand the heat etc.

The only problem with that though is that it doesn't take into
account the full range of sensitivities. I suspect there are
many who have something to contribute who are intimidated by the
bear pit mentality. Why should they be excluded?

Nevertheless, it's a shame. He does some good work which maybe
we didn't always acknowledge here.


Stuart Miller







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                Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Mori

From: Kentaro Mori <airdown.nul>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:39:28 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:24:40 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Mori


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:56:35 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:56:34 -0300
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>You don't have to ask me. You just have to read what I wrote on
>>the page:

>>http://www.geocities.com/airsmither/trind.htm

>>"This was digitally made, using a multiplier to merge the two
>>images, and is not provided with the intention to be an accurate
>>depiction of what would be the results with an actual film. It's
>>just a nice illustration to help to explain the suggestion for
>>those who may have a difficulty to understand the idea."

>Sorry if you think I took your statement out of context, but
>your "explanation" doesn't change the fact that you used a
>blatantly anachronistic digital technique to get results that
>you think support your claims and it does not help anyone to
>understand anything.

That I used a "digital technique" was obvious and more than
clearly acknowledged. It isn't "anachronic" since I, nor anyone,
never claimed that Barauna used Corel Photopaint to hoax his
photos. If the illustration didn't help you to understand my
claims, too bad. I tried my best.

>To call the thing what it is, the "thesis" that Printy, Mori,
>Rimmer, et. al. are proposing is a conspiracy theory. Its main
>drawback is that there's no evidence of a conspiracy.

I don't claim a Navy conspiracy. A hoax is suggested on the part
of the alleged witnesses to which we have direct statements
regarding the UFO. But they include no Navy personnel.

Mori





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   Aug > Aug 17

                   Strange Object From Sky Weather Balloon

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:00:26 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:29:24 -0400
Subject: Strange Object From Sky Weather Balloon


Weather Balloon Crashes. Government Says It's A UFO :) (Joke!)

Here's a twist to an old theme. In this story a real weather
balloon was foud on the side of the road. Wouln't it be funny if
our government jumped in and demanded it wasn't a weather
balloon but a flying saucer? Debunkers, skeptics pour in and
demand that the UFO community stop perpetrating hoaxes like this
and admit to faking a weather balloon crash with real flying
saucers.


Best,

Greg

-----

Source: WGAL -TV Lancaster, PA

http://www.thewgalchannel.com/news/3656789/detail.html

05-16-04


Strange Object From Sky Turns Out To Be A Weather Balloon

Craley, PA: Folks in York County can be forgiven for thinking a
UFO landed this week.

A passerby spotted a plastic foam box with attached wires and an
antenna by the side of a road.

A motorist in Lower Windsor Township called police Friday to
report the strange looking device, which had a battery-pack
attached and was humming.

Given the nation's security concerns, a bomb expert was called
and the road shut down.

However, the device is just part of a weather balloon that had
fallen from the sky.....









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   Aug > Aug 17

             CCCRN News: 'Amoeba' Photo Anomaly - Grand Bend ON

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:07:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:31:00 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: 'Amoeba' Photo Anomaly - Grand Bend ON


CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

August 16, 2004

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


'Amoeba' Photo Anomaly - Grand Bend, Ontario Formation

Zoom enhancements of the "amoeba" photo anomaly have been posted
to the web site. Like the "monk shadow" and "flying tray" photo
anomalies also from Ontario formations last year, another "what
is it?" oddity... photos were taken with an HP Photosmart R707
digital camera (5.1 MP). Being a digital photo, and also that
the disc has already been re-used, will make analysis more
difficult.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an e-mail with either
Subscribe CCCRN News or Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the subject
line to: cccrnnews.nul

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, media and scientists

c. CCCRN, 2004







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   Aug > Aug 17

                      Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:26:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:34:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Myers


>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 02:47:00 EDT
>Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed

>>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:59:27 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed

>>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 01:48:21 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed

>>>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:01:32 -0700
>>>>Subject: Burisch Story Exposed

The 'investigation' into Burisch was plainly sloppy. For those
of you who did not hear Howe on Coast To Coast AM talking about
Burisch, host George Noory asked Howe if she had verified any of
Burisch's credentials and Howe said she didn't have to becuase
she believed Burisch was telling the truth because he was
sincere.

This is a fine example of the problem with this field where
'investigators' report on a case and give all the sensationalist
aspects of it beore completing a thorough investigation of the
facts.

The bankruptcy document was posted at Howe's site more than
likely because she had no choice to acknowledge it because it
was going to be published in UFO Magazine along with what George
Knapp already knew about Burisch - that Burisch is a phony.

Also, Howe's article on her website tries to minimize the
finding as proving "neither a negative nor a positive" and she
writes, "So far, the July 16, 2002 Chapter 7 bankruptcy does not
prove the negative that Dan Burisch has lied about doing
microbiology work for the MJ government group."

Throughout Howe's reporting she has factually referred to
Burisch's education as real, and had only started associating
the word "alleged" with the Burisch story after the bankruptcy
filing was revealed, which put a major hole in Burisch's story.

The latest UFO Magazine also says that Howe did not return
repeated requests for comment.

Aliens Abducted My Common Sense

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/howe2.html


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM







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                        Brunswick Photos & Angel Hair

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:21:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:38:48 -0400
Subject: Brunswick Photos & Angel Hair


Brunswick Photos & Angel Hair


List, EBK,

The most startling aspect of the Brunswick "UFO" photocollection
is the large percentage that seem to show "angel hair":

"One of the most tantalizing types of alleged physical evidence
for the reality of UFOs is the phenomenon which has come to be
known as angel hair. This material is generally described as a
white, fibrous substance, resembling spiders' webs, wool, or
nylon. The filaments float down to earth and sometimes cover
quite large areas of ground. Unfortunately the substance is
unstable and appears to slowly sublime and disappear. It is said
to burn like cellophane when ignited. Falls of angel hair
generally coincide with UFO reports." --John Harney

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/60/hair.html


I have been fortunate to have been in two falls of angel hair,
both of which were reported to Updates. The first was on Nov 9,
2001 and the second was October 30, 2002. I collected samples of
the material and sent them to Frontier Analysis, Inc.

They were identified as "a polymer containing protein amide type
linkages, I.e. protein... a biological source is involved in its
manufacture... the specific source remains unidentified... fiber
is close to that of silk made by insects and caterpillars." This
analysis is very consistent with six other samples sent to this
lab.

Others have studied angel hair and have come to interesting
conclusions as to the nature of the phenomena:


Bill Chalker

http://www.theozfiles.com/angelhair.html


Brian Boldman

http://www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/angelh.htm

Since I've experienced two such events, I think I know how a
fall looks and feels. Many of the Brunswick collection photos
seem to show UFO emitting or surrounded by the angel hair
material.

The clearest and most interesting of these is the three-photo
series on pg. 239. All the little dots and strands of stuff that
Ray called diarrhea have identifiable shapes and spatial
relationships. These can be followed and traced through the
three photos. The craft can be seen to move through the angel
hair-like strands and puffs, which seem to be floating slowly
down.

Maybe these effects could be faked, but I don't know how. That's
why I wanted Ray to look at these photos. I think they show the
existence of a structured craft of unknown origin and establish
the association between angel hair and UFO.


Ed







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                    New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:08:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:19:48 -0400
Subject: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell


You see, the following is why our esteemed Mr. Klass can be seen
to be entirely contemptible, undeniablely irresponsible, and
thoroughly reprehensible. It would appear that he may be still-
 living proof that there is societal improvement with every
funeral. And all you ardent skeptibunkies can _pound_ your
outraged E-mails... the NMS&R can additionally pound their New
Mexico sand!

Thank you Gov. Richardson... what a guy!

-----

Source: SFGate.COM

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/08/16/MNGAK88OQQ1.DTL

08-16-04


Flying Saucers In New Mexico? Governor Rekindles Roswell
by
K. Davidson

Ten years after the U.S. Air Force closed its books on the claim
that a UFO crashed in Roswell, N.M., in 1947, a top Democratic
Party figure wants to reopen the investigation into the cosmic
legend.

Despite denials by federal officials, many UFO buffs cherish the
notion that in early summer of 1947, a flying saucer crashed in
rural Roswell, scattering alien bodies and saucer debris across
the terrain.

Now Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico, who chaired the recent
Democratic convention in Boston, says in his foreword to a new
book that "the mystery surrounding this crash has never been
adequately explained - not by independent investigators, and not
by the U.S. government. ... There are as many theories as there
are official explanations.

"Clearly, it would help everyone if the U.S. government
disclosed everything it knows," says Richardson, who served as
Energy secretary under President Bill Clinton. "The American
people can handle the truth - no matter how bizarre or mundane.
... With full disclosure and our best scientific investigation,
we should be able to find out what happened on that fateful day
in July 1947."

The passage appears in a paperback titled "The Roswell Dig
Diaries," published in collaboration with TV's SciFi Channel by
Pocket Books, a division of Simon & Schuster. The "dig" of the
title refers to an archaeological dig at the supposed crash
site.

A Richardson aide, Billy Sparks, confirmed the governor's
remarks. Richardson "is interested in either debunking the story
or (encouraging) full disclosure" of any unreleased records on
the case, Sparks said.

To the Air Force, though, there is no mystery - and there hasn't
been for a long time. In 1994, the Air Force published "Roswell
Report: Case Closed, " which asserted that so-called saucer
debris was, in fact, the ruins of an unusual type of military
research balloon, which contained hypersensitive acoustic
sensors designed to detect the rumble of any Soviet A-bomb
tests. A subsequent investigation by the U.S. General Accounting
Office was unable to locate any unreleased records on the case.

Hence, Richardson's foreword drew scorn from veteran UFO
investigators and science popularizers.

"We're kind of disappointed in Richardson for perpetuating the
mythology of that thing," said Dave Thomas, president of New
Mexicans for Science and Reason, a skeptics group in
Albuquerque.

The grand old man of skeptical UFO investigators, Philip J.
Klass, who has written for Aviation Week & Space Technology
since 1952, said: "Gov. Richardson - whom I previously admired -
 is wrong about Roswell and too trusting of TV network
promoters. After more than a third of a century of research, I
have found no credible evidence of extraterrestrial visitors."

Andrew Fraknoi, a noted astronomy popularizer and critic of
pseudoscience who teaches at Foothill College in Los Altos
Hills, called Richardson's foreword unbelievable.

"This continues to confirm that election or appointment to high
office does not guarantee wisdom in all areas of human thought,"
he said. But in a show of extraterrestrial bipartisanship, the
executive director of the New Mexico Republican Party is taking
Richardson's side. Greg Graves, a native of Roswell who suspects
the crashed object was "something more than a weather balloon,"
wants to know what really happened in the Southwestern desert
two years before his birth.

Still, Graves hopes the truth isn't disillusioning. That's
because the saucer legend is so good for the local economy:
"Thousands of people come to Roswell every year to visit the
site and go to the museum. It's an incredible boon to the
Roswell economy. Just think about 'X Files' and TV shows about
Roswell.

"When I go around the country and tell people I was born in
Roswell," he adds, "people ask: 'Do I think something crashed
there?'"

-----


alienview.nul
EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged - $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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               Re: The Trindade Photos & Motion Blur - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:15:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:21:04 -0400
Subject: Re: The Trindade Photos & Motion Blur - Shough


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:54:55 -0500
>Subject: The Trindade Photos & Motion Blur

<snip>

>About three-quarters down the page is a map showing what Barauna
>said was the object's path. What's interesting about it is that
>the third photo is the closest to the point where the reversal
>would have occurred. If the object were real, then it would have
>_had_ to appear to come to a nearly complete stop at the point
>where it reversed course from the vantage point of the
>observers.

>Printy says this map is wrong and makes a big deal of it. It's
>hard to see why, since it's obviously not drawn to scale (and it
>depicts the ship as a three-masted Spanish galleon!). Printy's
>own reconstruction of the directions shows the same sequence:
>the first photograph is to the far right of the observer the
>second to the left of the first, the third photo farthest to the
>left and the fourth again back to the far right (the fourth
>photograph of the object is labeled "P6" because Photos 4 and 5
>didn't show the object).

Yes, the newspaper map is largely irrelevant. It is also in
conflict with its own caption. It is also true, however, that it
has been cited and copied over and over again for years by
'believers' and 'sceptics' without anyone taking the trouble to
check the real geography and geometry of the situation. Perhaps
it's fitting that Kentaro Mori and Brad Sparks should have
approached the same carefully-researched conclusions on this
issue at about the same time and from different directions.

>According to Printy, a problem with this is that Barauna said
>somewhere that the object was moving the _fastest_ when he took
>Photo 3. But Barauna could have simply been mistaken. Or the
>object could well have been moving at a high rate of speed
>before and after it went into a sharp turn.

Barauna was quoted in one source as saying that the object
reappeared from behind the mountain "lower and faster than
before", i.e. heading towards the location of P3. This is the
origin of Tim Printy's inference. But in fact Barauna doesn't
say that at the time he took P3 it was *still* moving fast. He
actually said that it appeared to halt momentarily at P3 (and
again on the horizon just before it disappeared - although this
could be explained as an illusion due to the fact that elevation
and azimuth angular rates diminish as an object recedes in this
way; you see the same thing with aircraft).

But juggling translated phraseology from newspaper "quotations"
is always a risky game!


Martin Shough






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               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:45:14 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:22:42 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:22:54 EDT
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:56:34 -0300
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:11:36 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>Martin Shough has tackled the difficult problem of analysis of
>prevailing meteorological conditions over the Trindade region in
>January and found that quite high speed winds (and thus clouds)
>are found then. Martin has also studied Printy's "internal mask"
>hoax technique in depth and other arguments.

>Brad Sparks

Hi Brad, et al,

Yes "tackled" if not "solved". I should also say that this
exercise is based on, and extends, work done on photo
enhancements by Kentaro Mori and has been discussed with both
Mori and Brad Sparks (who, as he says, has done independent work
on cloud pattern analysis).

If anyone out there has the patience for this material, and
other work on Trindade, go to:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/trindex.htm

In brief, it can be shown that if (a) the stratified high cloud
in the first and last photos is cirrus (as Barauna recalled, and
as it appears) at the characteristic height for tropical cirrus;
and if (b) the tropopausal winds W of the island are much
stronger than average but are within the known range of
variation for nearby Espirito Santo Basin windspeeds based on
Brazilian Navy meteorological computer models for January; and
if (c) the pattern matching exercise is correct - then the
angular rate is consistent with an elapsed time of about two
minutes. (If the cloud deck is actually much lower altostratus,
then the range of windspeeds and elapsed times can possibly be
brought down.)

You can also show, among other things, that the different
implied directions and magnitudes of movement of the cloud
masses at low and high altitude between P1 and P4 (or P6 if you
like) are consistent with the wind shear that would be predicted
from taking the averages of these vectors measured over 40
years.


Best

Martin Shough







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   Aug > Aug 17

               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:00:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:24:14 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:56:35 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:56:34 -0300
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>Tim Printy has just reproduced, on film -- without "digital
>>techniques" -- the proposed use of an internal mask. And it
>>worked: http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/trin6.html

>An _internal_ mask? That means that Barauna would have been
>messing around with changing masks in order to get the different
>shapes the object took on out in full view of everyone (and
>opening the camera in the sunlight, which I would presume would
>not be a good idea, either).

Actually there might be a way of getting around this. See:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/intermask.htm

The problems are largely (if not wholly) circumstantial. See:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/printy-details.htm

>According to the captain of the ship (_not_ Barauna):
>"A strong emotional upset was observed in all persons who
>sighted the object, including the photographer, civilians and
>members of the ship=B9s crew."

In the interests of accuracy this information came from Capt.
Bacellar, who was commander of the Trindade Island garrison, not
from the Captain of the vessel. It is true that we have no
*direct*, information whatsoever (pro or con) from the Captain
or any identified officer or named crewman of the vessel, except
a single statement by the ship's Captain (quoted by US Naval
Attache, Capt. Sunderland in 1958) that his assistant, an
unnamed Lt.Commander, was himself a witness (of the UFO it is
usually presumed, although he could perhaps have meant the
negatives).


Martin Shough





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               HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 08-15-04

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:30:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:27:04 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 08-15-04


HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings

Unreported Daylight UFO sighting =96 Monmouth County, NJ =96
Summer, 1959

On a warm summer evening in early July of that year, I, my
family along with several neighbors were witnesses to a unique
daylight UFO sighting that to this day has never been reported
or satisfactorily explained. The object observed was that of a
shiny metallic sphere having the appearance of silver or liquid
mercury. Its approximate size on retrospect was about that of a
pencil eraser held at arms length. The sphere also displayed
flashing red and white lights that seemed to flash randomly all
around it mainly at its equator.

What makes this sighting even more interesting is that the
location of the farm from which we viewed the object is adjacent
to the U.S. Navy road and railroad that links NWS (then NAD)
Earle (the main munitions storage facility in Colts Neck, NJ) to
its pier facilities located in Leonardo, NJ (on Raritan Bay).
The road itself is restricted to only military use, primarily
that of moving naval munitions from the secure storage
facilities at the Colts Neck site to the various Naval ships
that tie up to the piers located at the Leonardo facility.

It has long been =93rumored=94 that the inventory stored at Earle
included conventional as well as =93other=94 types of =93non-
conventional=94 munitions. At the time of the sighting, my father,
was employed as a farmhand by a Mr. Murray Rosenberg, then owner
of Dorbrook farms as well as Miles Shoes stores (a national shoe
chain). We lived in a modest farmhouse on the site facing the
road then known as RD#1, Eatontown. Our house also directly
faced the Navy road that was approximately several hundred yards
away. Looking from my front porch, across this highway one could
easily view the government road then known as Normandy Road, or
just =93the Navy Road=94 that was just across a large field to the
east of the RD#1, Eatontown.

It should also be noted that the farms location is especially
important because of its proximity to two critical military
facilities that to this day, are still considered significant
and militarily important installations. Dorbrook farm (now a
Monmouth county park) is approximately 4 miles from the research
and development facilities located at Fort Monmouth
(Communications and Electronics Command) as well as about a mile
from Naval Weapons Station Earle base entrance (again, the
Normandy road railroad and its service road are directly
adjacent to the farm itself).

Unfortunately, because of the passage of years, I must estimate
the day and time of the sighting. The time, in my estimation was
between 6:00pm and 8:00pm eastern daylight savings time and was
probably on a weekday night. The object itself was moving in a
south southwesterly direction at a speed of approximately 60 to
120 mph and at an altitude of between 1000 to 3000 feet (note
the size and distance were a little hard to determine at the
time). The location from which we viewed the object was from the
front porch of my house and is highlighted in the diagram below.
Also on this diagram, I have added some graphics that indicate
the approximate location of the object in relation to the farm
as well as the direction of flight and the bearing from the
witnesses. (See graphics and photo on the next page):

The map above and the photograph below indicate the current
configuration of the Farm as it is today. Unfortunately, the
house in which I lived and from where the observation was made
was demolished this summer however, it is still located on this
particular map and is indicated as such. Please note: Fort
Monmouth is located roughly 4 miles to the east of the farm. The
photo below looks down at the Navy road, RD#1 and the clustered
farm buildings. The Navy road in this picture runs from North to
South.

As was previously mentioned, the object was also sighted several
miles to the north of the Dorbrook and was actually reported to
have landed on a marshy area around Newman Springs Road and
River Plaza. The location of this sighting area would fall right
on a straight line drawn from the Leonardo facility directly to
the Ammunition Depot located in Colts Neck. The object was seen
taking off from that marshy area located between Red Bank and
River Plaza where the Swimming and Navesink rivers meet (see map
below right).

A silver/mercury colored sphere with random red and white
blinking was the observed during the sighting mentioned above.
This sphere (simulated in the above picture) approximates the
size of the object at the time of the sighting. Again, the true
color of the spheroid object was not gold/bronze but rather
silver/mercury. Note: This object was also sighted on the ground
several miles away by an independent observer whom I came across
years later.

In closing, the report as it is presented here is accurate to
the best of my knowledge. I was a principal in the sighting
along with my father, mother and sister and several other
witnesses who also resided on the farm during that period. I
actually met the additional witness of what appears to be the
same sighting approximately 10 years ago. He stated that he
observed it taking off from a location several miles away from
where we were.

As it took off, the independent witness stated that it was his
recollection that the object appeared to be heading in the
direction where we eventually viewed our sphere. The actual
course would have taken it over NWS Earle and our farm. This
additional witness who related his story to me currently works
for the Army at Fort Monmouth.

Thank you very much to the witness for this report.

---------------------------------
U.S. Coast Guard Serviceman Witnesses Object

Brian,

After viewing your website (excellent site), I came across your
Military sightings section.  I do have 3 personal sighting
experiences of my own.

Two while I was on duty in the U.S. Coast Guard and one, while
growing up living within a mile of a major weapons storage
facility (NWS Earle) in New Jersey.

The two sightings and one possible that took place while on
active duty took place in 1969 and 1970.  The first one was
while my ship was on Ocean Station Victor (approximately 34.0 N
by 165 E) in the western pacific.  The second (possible) took
place around Con Son island in the Gulf of Siam right off of the
coast of Vietnam.  The last sighting (daylight visual) took
place while steaming from Guam back to Oahu approximately 200
miles from Eniwetok atoll (approximately 17.0 N by 167.0 E).
 The first sighting was visual and radar with 3 objects being
tracked at speeds of between 3200 and 3600 mph.  This sighting I
believe was duly reported via prescribed SOP.  The other two
were not reported.

The sighting that took place around 1959 near the Naval Weapons
Station was a daylight sphere (silver with red and white random
flashing lights randomly placed surrounding, but not attached to
the object.  It was flying at slow speed over the Navy road and
railroad and on a course coming from the Navy pier several miles
away on the Raritan Bay (NYC harbor).  Its course would take it
directly to the secure WSA on the base proper (Colts Neck).
 This sighting never made any local papers or reports as near as
I could tell.

The possible sighting was actually right off of the coast of
Vietnam and took place while holding swim call.  An object of
approximately 90 go 100' long and approximately 30' wide sailed
silently underneath of my while at anchor.  It was observed by
approximately 10 people who were on anchor and guard duty from
the port bridge wing (44 feet above the water line).  The object
was heading from starboard to port under the rear third of the
ship and directly under the men who were swimming off of the
fantail.  My ship was the CGC Mellon (WHEC 717).

Thank you to the witness for the very interesting reports.

----------------------------------

Sherwood Park, Alberta Sightings

Date:  Between 1983 and 1985
Time:  Between 7:00 and 8:00 p.m.

Message: I am trying to find information on two events I
witnessed in Sherwood Park, Alberta between 1983 and 1985.
First, in the winter of 1983/84 I was returning from my paper
route one night (likely between 7 and 8pm) and saw what seemed
like a giant ball of fire of ice (with a tail like a comet)
streak across the sky. It was extremely large and appeared to be
close enough to crash within 100km or so. I'm pretty sure it was
mentioned in the Edmonton Journal and was reported to have
crashed in northern Alberta. However, I have been unable to find
anything whatsoever on it more recently - and would like to know
what it is I saw.

Not long after seeing this "meteorite" my friends and I saw a
ball of fire slowly crashing toward the earth with a very long
trail of dark smoke behind it. This was in June of 1985. We rode
our bikes as far as we could but realized that it was going to
crash too far away for us to catch. It fell straight down and
rather slowly (we were able to see it in the air for quite some
time). Again, I have been unable to find any mention of this
event anywhere either.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------------

Toronto, Ontario Blue, Metallic, Spherical Object

Date:  Summer of 2003
Time:  Daytime sighting

Message: Last summer I was parked about 2 blocks west of Yonge
and Eglinton, I was helping unload my mother in laws wheelchair.
My mother in law pointed out a jet laying a chunky chemtrail  on
a western direction right above us. It was funny because I had
only just told her about "chemtrails" the previous evening.
While we were looking up we all noticed what seemed to be a
blue, metallic, spherical object following the jet and moving
in, out and around the trail. I estimate it was one tenth the
size of the jet, we saw it continue to trail the jet until we
couldn't see either anymore.

Since then, my wife (along with half of Yorkville) witnessed 3
similar objects putting on quite the show to the amazement of
dozens of people in Yorkville. There were three of them making
strange maneuvers at high speed, it lasted a good 10 minutes as
it was related to me as it happened over a cellphone.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------------

Spanish Fork, Utah Bat Shaped Object

Date:  June 8, 2004
Time:  11:00 p.m.

Hi Brian,

I came across your post on the UFO Sightings report on June 8th
2004.  My husband and I were watching the meteor shower last
night about 11:00 p.m. and we both saw this strange almost see
through object fly above us.  We could see the outline and it
reminded me of a bat or a kite, but it was bigger than that.  So
I was wondering if you have found any answers to your
experience?  It didn't make any noise and it flew over us about
3 times while we were laying on the grass star gazing, then we
got spooked and went inside :)

Thanks.

Additional Information:

Q. First of all could you please tell me where you are located ?
Town, state, province, which ever ?

A. Spanish Fork, UT

Q. In what part of the sky was the UFO located? North, South,
East, West? A. On the horizon or straight overhead or somewhere
in between?  We were stargazing it moved right over us from west
to east.

Q. As it moved, could you determine roughly how fast it traveled
, how far, etc..

A. It moved slow enough that we realized something was moving,
but fast enough that by the time we realized what was going on
it was gone or it blended into the night sky so we couldn't make
out the outline any longer.

Q. Describe the appearance of the UFO: shape, size, distance,
color, texture.

A.  It was see through and the middle of it seemed wavy like an
old window pane. I thought it was about as long as a house, but
my husband says it wasn't that big.  It reminded us of bat wings
or a kite but the object was bigger. The color was translucent.
 It seemed as if we could see the sky through it.

Q. Describe the area in which you made the sighting. Is it near
an airport? An Air Force Base? A military or research
installation of any kind?

A. It isn't near any of these things, but we are very close to
the crop circle that was discovered here. There is also a mine
that is located in the next town.

Q. How far up in altitude do you think it was from your location
? (rough guess).

A.  I would say about 200 feet maybe less.

Q. You also mentioned that is was larger than a bat or a kite,
thinking back, would you say it was twice or more larger than a
kite, etc. This is why I asked for a rough guess on how high it
might have been, if flying around the same height as a small
plane, jet  airliner or just over tree top.

A. It was probably above or at the tree line.  It was hard to
tell because it was so dark. It was about twice as big as a tree
or kite.

Q. How long were you able to watch the whole event for ?

A. My husband saw it first but passed it off as a bat.  Then I
noticed it and we saw it again so in all it was probably 10-15
minutes.  Then like I said I got scared and we went inside.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------------

Phoenix, Arizona Trio Of Lights

Date:  August 11, 2004
Time:  4:00 p.m.

I ordered a lens attachment that is going to triple my optical
zoom. I wish I had it today.At work, 4:00 p.m. same place as
usual, looking out the parking garage towards the East. This
object moved against the wind and it was windy at the time of
taping. This object does a "cartwheel" and is giving off pastel
colors if you look closely. Very cool, just thought you'd want
to be in the loop.

Thank you to the fellow for the interesting footage and report.

Picture is =A92004RichG.

To view the picture:=
 http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1726

-------------------------

Rossland, B.C. Orange Ball Followed By Lights

Date:  August 11, 2004
Time:  Approx: 10:00 p.m.

I received a call from a witness on Sunday August 15, 2004 who
explained about a sighting he had in Rossland, British Columbia.
The witness was previously living at his parents home which is
located just below one of the local mountains in the Rossland
area. The fellow stepped outside and after standing viewing the
night sky for approx five minutes he saw an extremely bright
orange falling star. It was coming from a northerly direction.
As he observed the quick moving object he thought to himself
that this was an amazing spectacle. The man watched the orange
glowing ball of light as it disappeared behind the mountain.

Approx: 5 to 10 seconds later after the bright orange object had
vanished behind the mountain, the witness observed a number of
flickering lights which appeared out of no where. (the area
where the flickering lights appeared was exactly where the
fellow lost sight of the orange ball of light). The color of the
three lights went from white to red, and it just sat there. The
lights did go dimmer at one point but grew in brightness and
changed colors again. At times the lights would appear to be
bobbing up and down and would move from side to side. As the
light moved, the light on one end would dim a bit while the
light at the other end grew brighter. At one point in the
sighting the witness saw a blue light which he said was flashing
on and off.

The day after the sighting took place he decided to go up onto
the mountain with his digital camera to see  if anything was
around, or to see what might have caused the lights, but nothing
was there.  At this point he is thinking it possibly could have
been a vehicle on the road the night before, but after really
checking things out he believes it wasn't this..... as the
trees, etc would have certainly blocked out any light source
coming off  the mountain where he had seen the lights. The
fellow thinks whatever it was, had to be hovering just above the
tree tops. The whole event lasted for approx: 5 to 8 minutes.

One other interesting thing to the report was that there were
dogs and cats acting up while this event was taking place. If
there is any connection between the animals and what was seen is
unknown.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Hitchcock, Texas Orb Sighting

Date:  August 13, 2004
Time:  9:44 - 9:50 p.m.

Full Description of event/sighting: I was out taking random
pictures with a Sony, digital. Using no flash and no backlight.
I was facing North when I started with 1/8 turn between
pictures. The ones enclosed are from the E-NE direction. Orb was
about 25 feet from ground and I can't tell how far away it was
from me, nothing visible to gauge by. the other four may be a
UFO, I didn't see any lights in that direction when I just
pointed and took it but I took two right after the other so UFO-
8 is in N-NE direction, while UFO-9 is more to the north. I
cannot judge the UFO pictures as I didn't have a landmark to go
by.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------

South Lanarkshire, Scotland

Date:  August 14, 2004
Time:  8:45 p.m.

Hello Brian,

Once again I have information on something which my Son and I
observed at 20:45  14th of August 2004, in Scotland, South
Lanarkshire.

I have attached a digital impression of what we seen. It is
nearly exactly what we observed.

While up at a model flying club with my Son, we observed this
silvery object flying from South to North. The sky was broken
with blue sky behind the cloud, The object passed over us and
reflected the sun enormously. The object was like a mirror. The
object seemed to be in the shape of two ball-bearings joined
about a third together. Very bright and shining in the setting
Sun. It was not a plane and there was no sound. I have observed
planes at high altitude against a blue sky and the wings can
always be seen. There was no contrails either. The object was
very high to reflect the Sun the way it did. Some high level
planes passed over minuets later but could be seen and heard as
aircraft.

Thank you to the witness for their report.

-----------------------

Durham Region (Pickering to Oshawa)

Date:  August 14, 2004
Time:  6:15 p.m.

Message:

Hi Brian, I want to report UFO sighting Aug.14,2004 at 6:15 p.m.
over the Durham Region (Pickering to Oshawa) high about 30,000
feet or more. Over the shoreline of Lake Ontario, coin like in
shape with white light (not too intense) floating very slowly
high in the sky with blue sky background. Observed with
binoculars round object of white light. Object was so high,would
have been very difficult to see with the naked eye if you were
not sky watching for UFO's.Observation time duration was 15-20
minutes. (that's how slow the object floated) This is my first
sighting this year, as last year was 15.

Take care and I'll keep watching.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/







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                         Crikey Another Plagiarist!

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 02:00:05 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:33:37 -0400
Subject: Crikey Another Plagiarist!


Hello all:

I hope you aren't put off by distasteful matters like this, but
I was surprised to find some weblog (blog) in Britain, scraping
my maps and text wholesale:

Please repair URLs on the jaw-busting URL below ..

http://www.pdjkeelan.co.uk/theblackdeath/ha/index.php?s=82b1c4996cf27def0ed2c712
b9666e52&showtopic=85

Nowhere is there a hint of my authorship, my name,
my website .. nothing.

I composed a stern but carefully worded message to the
blogmeister, one P.D.J. Keelan, aka Paul Keelan, who left his
fingerprints all over the conspiracy/paranormal landscape. He
calls himself a "geologist" on somebody else's blog, as he
opines about rabbits and blueberries on Mars etc.

At the bottom of the (useless) registration page, there is a
notice that people posting agree not to put up copyright
materials! Having mentioned my copyright notices etc., I also
copied his hosting service ( Fxxxxxxx.co.uk ) in case they might
be interested.

These matters usually sort themselves out before things get
really serious. I just want a few folks to witness the page
above in case they do. Pages like these tend to disappear
quickly once discovered.

If anyone is curious how I word the mail in these matters,
I can send you a copy offlist.

Meanwhile, I think I will browse around and see who else got
scraped. Its not too hard to find and notify the rightful owners
when some fool scrapes text verbatim.


Best wishes

- Larry

Please feel free to post this message on other Lists. I only
subscribe to two or three.







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               Re: The Trindade Photos & Motion Blur - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:10:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:36:48 -0400
Subject: Re: The Trindade Photos & Motion Blur - Fleming


I'm writing this to correct a couple things I said in my
previous post on 15 Aug 2004 15:54:55.

First, although this is a rather peripheral point, I implied
that a map of the object's path incorrectly depicted the ship
involved in the incident as having sails like a Spanish galleon.
But I've learned from a 1983 article on the CUFOS web site by a
Dr. Willy Smith that the Almirante Saldanha was a sailing ship.
So it appears that it did have sails and I wrongly assumed that
a modern navy circa 1958 wouldn't have such ships in service.

A more significant mistake, I think, was in writing:

>As far as I know, Brad
>Sparks was the first person to notice the apparent motion blur
>and I'm the first to notice that it's consistent with the course
>reversal Barauna described. And it only took 40-plus years and
>well after Mr. Barauna's death for that to happen.

Well, it turns out that "as far as I knew" wasn't far enough!
Since I wrote that, I've found out that the evidence of motion
blur was in fact noted by APRO researcher John Hopf in a 1960
report that was cited by one of Jerry Clark's articles.

Clark's article is at:
http://www.cufos.org/Trindade_Clark_article.html

Hopf's is at:
http://www.cufos.org/Trindade_Hopf_article.html

Hopf states:

"It is interesting to note that the outline of the object is
quite sharp in views Nos. 2 and 3 where it had slowed down, but
slightly blurred in Nos. 1 and 4 where it was going at a higher
speed and the shutter setting was not high enough to freeze the
motion. Greater distance would also contribute to this effect."

So Hopf appears to be the first person who noticed the apparent
motion blur, pre-dating the current discussion by 44 years!
However, I still think the observation may be new that Photo 3
was the one taken closest to the only point where the object
would have _had_ to slow down: the point where it reversed
course.

I certainly don't want to belittle the work and competence of
the people who actualy investigated the incident. I'll leave
that to the so-called "skeptics."

Curiously, one person who _did_ miss the evidence of motion blur
was a US Naval attache in Brazil at the time of the incident, a
Captain Sunderland who is quoted by Mr. Printy as having
written:

"..the photographs furnished by the Brazilian Navy are
unconvincing. Details of the land are extremely sharp but the
disc is hazy and has little contrast and shows no shadow effect.
It also appears that the object was inverted in photograph 2
compared to 1 and 3. Also the papers have mentioned extremely
high velocities and there appears to be __no lateral blurring__
as would occur with any reasonable shutter speed." [my emphasis]

The eagle-eyed Captain Sunderland was able to discern the
dubious indications that the object was inverted in one image.
Yet he flatly denied there were any signs of the motion blur
that Brad Sparks (and Hopf long before) commented on.

To paraphrase Simon & Garfunkel, a man sees what he wants to see
and disregards the rest. That's no doubt true for everyone to
some extent -- and not necessarlly to a lesser extent in the
case of some naval attach=E9s and others who view themselves as
"skeptics".







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   Aug > Aug 17

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 33

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:10:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:21:10 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 33



Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 33
August 18, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


CHUPACABRA SHOT IN
ELMENDORF, TEXAS

      "It's a story that has attracted worldwide attention.
A strange animal was shot dead on a south Texas farm, and
no one can identify it."
      "It's prompted some to wonder if it's the famed
Chupacabra."
      "That mystery animal has most everyone wondering,
'What is it!?'  But we may soon have an answer."
      "A rancher in Elmendorf," Texas (population 664),
located about 10 miles (16 kilometers) southeast of San
Antonio, "shot the hairless animal after it killed more
than 30 of his chickens.  He then buried it on his
property.  Saturday (August 7, 2004) an organization that
specializes in identifying strange animals dug up the
remains.  Rancher Devin Macanally hopes that the animal's
bones will now tell the tale."
      "'I thought that by burying it in solid sand it would
last longer,' said Macanally, 'But it didn't.'"
      "Biologists dug up the animal's remains for DNA
testing, a process that could take up to six months."
      "'They just dug as far as they needed to get the bone
samples,' said Macanally, 'They wanted an ear, but they
realized that they couldn't get one.'"
      "Some believe the mystery animal could be the
Chupacabra, the blood-sucking animal of popular Mexican
folklore.  Macanally said, whatever it is, he just hopes
he gets to know it and that it will stop eating his
chickens.  He hopes to take the rest of the remains to a
zoo in the hopes they can identify it."
      "Other labs around the country (USA) and the world
have been contacting him, trying to find out what this
thing really is."
      "Bone from a mystery animal shot by an Elmendorf
rancher has been taken to an expert from the San Antonio
Zoo.  But can he tell what it is?"
      "John Gramieri, the mammal curator for the San
Antonio Zoo, doesn't think it's the Chupacabra.  It's
definitely canine, but he thinks it's a mix between a dog
and a coyote."
      "Devin Macanally shot the Elmendorf Beast after it
ate dozens of his chickens.  The animal has a blue-grey
coloring, is almost hairless, has a short nose and long
fangs."
      "'It's clearly a member of the dog family, a family
candidate,' explains Gramieri."
      "Gramieri says he can't tell what type of canine, but
that it could be mixed with a coyote that has very weird
teeth."
      "'For whatever reason, the animal has had poor fusion
in the front here, so that it allowed the lower jaw to
spread in a way that is not normal for any mammal,
actually,' Gramieri said."
      "But what about the creature's color?  A blue-grey
hairless coat that's unlike any dog or coyote."
      "'It apparently had some very bad skin ailment,' said
Gramieri, 'And the skin ailment made the dog bald except
for the top of his body.'"  (See the San Antonio, Texas
News for August 9, 2004, "Chupacabra?  DNA testing
underway,' and for August 11, 2003, "S.A. zoo weighs in on
Chupacabra debate."  Many thanks to Robert Fischer, Loren
Coleman, Scott Corrales and Mary Lou Jones-Drown for
forwarding these newspaper articles.)


NEW UFO FLAP BREAKS OUT
IN MEXICO'S YUCATAN

      "For some weeks now, numerous residents of Ticul,"
located in Mexico's state of the Yucatan, "and even other
municipalities in the area have made use of the hill that
dominates the barrio Benito Juarez (neighborhood) of La
Perla del Sur as their nocturnal gathering place."
      "The reason for this gathering also became a
fashionable subject in this part of the state's alleged
UFO sightings, a situation that has also attracted the
attention of experts in supernatural phenomena."
      "There is no scientific explanation for these events.
The alleged witnesses claim they are real, but the people
of the vicinity consider this a product of the euphoric
sensation experienced at the meeting site."
      "The fact remains that it is a party atmosphere" has
been obvious "for nearly a week now, including consumption
of alcoholic beverages and the presence of street
vendors."
      "This week, the UFO talk took a turn.  Two young men
claimed to have filmed the appearance of a mysterious
'vessel' that was visible only for seconds."
      "The youths, with the characteristic excitement of
those who have just made a great discovery, showed their
video of the alleged sighting to a reporter from Diario de
Ticul (newspaper).  A circle of eight lights spinning on
an axis could be seen.  The lights" produced by the object
"became tilted and elliptical.  Suddenly, the mysterious
object changes course and vanishes."
      Members of the Centro de Analisis de Fenomenos
Espaciales (Translated: Space Phenomena Analysis Center--
S.C.) have pointed at the cases involving people who claim
having seen unidentified flying objects are fairly common
in the Yucatan peninsula, but they are never unlikely
known, due to a load of diffusion."
      "Cindy Martinez Sanchez, a printer with this
statewide organization, reports that the phenomena was
seen two nights ago (Monday, August 9, 2004) not only in
Ticul but also over on Progreso."
      "Many residents of the barrio Vicente Guerrero are
witnesses to a mysterious cloud with a bright light that
appeared and vanished in the watery reaches of the point,
they say.  The incident lasted five hours."  (See the
Mexican newspapers Edicion Yucatan for August 10, 2004,
"More mysterious lights over Ticul."  Muchas gracias a
Scott Corrales y Gloria Coluchi para esto articulo de
diario.)


UFOs SPOTTED IN ONTARIO

      On Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 12:45 a.m.,
eyewitness L.P. was "walking along Kanata Drive, going
north" in Ottawa (population 323,340), Canada's capital,
when she "saw a bright light like a Halogen flashlight.
It was blinding, extreme brightness, very large.  I
thought it was an Army night light  ( flare in the USA--
J.T.).  They shoot this up into the air, and there's a
bright white-pink ball that slowly descends, and you can
see smoke around it.  This one did not descend but just
hung in the air.  It was totally white and there was no
smoke.  It was totally amazing."
      "As I watched it, it still sat in the air.  I could
see it fully over the tree line.  I called my son on my
cell (phone).  We live a couple of blocks away.  I told
him to run outside and see it.  While I was still watching
it, he said he could see nothing.  While it was me
watching, it was just to the side of the townhouses,
closer than I thought.  It was still hovering, not moving
closer, not moving away, no sound.  I ran towards it, but
it just disappeared."
      L.P. described the UFO as "a black object," adding
that she was "unsure of the shape."  (Email Form Report)
      That same night, Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 2:35
a.m., eyewitnesses D.W. and his wife, B.W., "saw a bright
orange object over the treeline horizon" in Nestor Falls,
Ontario, Canada.  "It seemed too bright for Venus, which
we can sometimes see," they reported, "Seemed to be bright
orange and yellowish or white.  Seemed to be hovering or
moving slightly.  After about five minutes, it just
disappeared."
      "Freaky!  Our (electric) power had gone out earlier
that night over a large radius.  No lightning.  No
reason."
      They described the UFO as "Orange, yellow, white,
round.  Reminded us of a planet like Saturn.  It was fixed
in the sky where we saw it.  It just disappeared in the
distance.  It was maybe 1/4 the size of the full moon."
(Email Form Report)


UNUSUAL CROP CIRCLES
FOUND NEAR LAKE HURON

      An unusual crop circle formation was found on the
shores of Lake Huron, at Grand Bend in Canada's Ontario
province, on Wednesday, July 21, 2004, but it wasn't
reported until Sunday, August 8, 2004.
      According to Canadian cerealogist Paul Anderson, the
formation consisted of "a 'Vesica Pisces' style of four
interlocking circles in wheat."  The new formation was
"very near the Hensall, Ont. formation of 2003.  The
(Grand Bend) field unfortunately had already been
harvested" by the time researchers arrived "but the
pattern was still visible.  One digital ground photo taken
(Friday) August 13 (2004) contains an aerial anomaly
nicknamed 'the Amoeba' because of the odd shape with a
dark spot inside of it."
      Grand Bend, Ont. is located about 120 miles (192
kilometers) west of Toronto.  (Many thanks to Paul
Anderson of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network for
this report.)


UFO SEEN TWICE IN ONE
NIGHT OVER WINNIPEG

      On Friday, August 6, 2004, Tracey Longbottom spotted
the same UFO twice "within the hour" over Winnipeg
(population 618,477), the capital of Canada's central
province of Manitoba.
      "The first sighting was at approximately 12:10 a.m.,"
Tracey reported, "I have a fifth-floor balcony apartment
on Maryland, facing south towards the Maryland Bridge" in
Winnipeg.  "Initially, my boyfriend saw what he thought
was a plane going in the wrong direction, through my front
window.  We see many planes going through the same flight
path, so, other than the odd direction, it did not
initially seem that extraordinary.  It looked like a
bright light with a greenish tinge.  It was coming at an
unusually slow pace, just over Misericorda Hospital, about
the same height (altitude) as a plane."
      "While my boyfriend was exclaiming how odd this was,
I jokingly said, 'That's because it's a UFO.'"
      "We then went to the balcony to get a better look.
At that point, it flashed three times, the last two with a
most brilliant flash, then it just disappeared.  Seems
there were a lot of rolling clouds.  We continued watching
even though it went behind them and would soon reappear."
      "We waited for a while for it to reappear, which it
did an hour later, at about 1 a.m.  This time it was a
pinkish red and appeared to be further away but in the
same general area.  It bobbed in and out of the cloud
cover, about three to five times.  I could compare it to a
firecracker the way it rose and fell in the sky (behind
the cloud cover--T.L.), but it wasn't a firecracker from
what we could surmise.  It also disappeared behind the
clouds, and it seemed we could see a faintly illuminated
cloud area where it disappeared behind.  Possibly it was
nestled behind cloud cover."  (Email Form Report)


BRAZILIAN MAN SNAPS A UFO
ON HIS PHONE CAMERA

      On Tuesday, August 3, 2004, "three men were driving
on the Anhanguera Highway" in Brazil's state of Sao Paulo
"when they saw something unusual over a field.  They
stopped the car, and two of the men jumped over the fence
to get a little closer."
      "One of them had a modern cell phone with him, and he
took a photo of a strange, cylinder-like, silver object
hovering a few meters above the ground."
      "Under the object, which remained hovering for 30
minutes and emitted a sound that sounded like 'several
engines working together, some dust could be seen lifting
into the air."
      "The witnesses do not want to be identified."  (See
Revista UFO for August 2004.  Muito obrigado a Brunilda
Barros para eso articulo.)


UFO SIGHTED IN SOUTH
BIRMINGHAM, UK

      On Wednesday, August 4, 2004, at 1 p.m.,  eyewitness
Liam was walking through Rubery, South Birmingham, UK when
he spotted something unusual in the sky.
      "I first thought it was a bird, but it was much too
high," he reported, "It seemed to be over the Licky Hills.
Very, very fast, going from side to side and up and down
and in and out of the clouds.  Then it simply
disappeared."
      Liam described the UFO as "a black object, but I'm
unsure of the actual shape."  (Email Form Report)


WHITE SPHERICAL UFO SEEN
IN RIDGELAND, MISSISSIPPI

      On Saturday, August 7, 2004, at about 8 p.m.,
eyewitness L.M. "was sitting on the backyard swing" at her
home in Ridgeland, Mississippi (population 20,173), about
5 miles (8 kilometers) north of Jackson, the state
capital, when she had a UFO encounter.
      "The UFO I saw was a white ball.  It was at a fairly
high altitude and moving at a speed that would have been a
jet or a plane," she reported, "I was sitting on the
backyard swing about 8 p.m. on Saturday.  I had just been
staring at the sky in this large open area when I reached
down to pick up a piece of trash between my feet.  So I
looked away for about three to four seconds, and it just
appeared out of nowhere.  But there was no sound, not one
sound, totally silent."
      "It was perfectly round, very white--the altitude was
higher than the planes and jets that are coming in for
landing or taking off, and you can see them visibly when
they come over our house.  My husband said commercial jets
may be a mile above when they are coming in, but the UFO
was higher than that.  If it had been a plane, it would
have been up too high for a landing, but a strange
altitude for a plane that was on a normal or settled
flight path.  It was still visible enough, by all means,
to see that it was perfectly round."
      "I live not far from the (Jackson Municipal) airport,
and I can say with certainty that there were no
(navigational) stroke lights that are required by the FAA.
While a plane is at that altitude, it cannot move as fast
as the ball of light was moving.  It was making a straight
shot through the sky, but with no sound, and left no
chemtrails of any kind, nor was it losing any altitude
like a meteor or falling star would.  It moved across a
vast opening in the sky in 30 seconds or less.  Had it
been a plane, I would have seen it for several minutes
before it crossed that distance.  This is the second (UFO)
sighting I've had.  The other one was the saucer over
downtown Jackson in May."  (Many thanks to Canadian
ufologist Brian Vike for this report.)


MYSTERIOUS EXPLOSION IN
BULLHEAD CITY, ARIZONA

      "It likely was not a UFO that crashed in the desert
east of Bullhead City (Arizona, population 33,769)
Thursday night," August 5, 2004, "bit it was also not an
airplane, as originally reported to authorities."
      "Firefighters and law enforcement officers were
called to the area of Landon Drive and Highway 68 at about
9 p.m. with a report of an airplane that crashed into the
desert."
      "Bullhead City Fire Marshal Jim Dykens said the
reporting party met with authorities and said they saw
what appeared to be an airplane exploding and crashing in
the desert somewhere between the highway and Oatman, Ariz.
It was also reported that the explosion was followed by
three smaller bursts that appeared to be emergency
flares."
      "With assistance from the (Arizona) Department of
Public Safety Ranger helicopter, the Bullhead City Fire
Department searched the area from the north and the Oatman
Fire Department looked from the south, but found nothing."
      "'The outcome was that they really believe it was a
large mortar that was shot off and then some other bottle
rockets or other type fireworks,' Dykens said."
      "The peak of the Perseid meteor shower is expected in
Arizona skies around August 11 or 12, said Steele Wotkyns,
public relations manager at the Lowell Observatory in
Flagstaff, Ariz."  (See the Mohave Daily News for August
8, 2004, "Sky explosion investigated.  Airplane, blimp,
ruled out."  Many thanks to Jim Hickman, executive
director of Skywatch International, for this newspaper
article  Be sure to visit Jim's Web site at
http://www.skywatch-international.org .)


MUTILATED CALF FOUND IN
ANDERSON, CALIFORNIA

      On Saturday, August 7, 2004, "at around 1 p.m.,
rancher Harry Hawes, 72, of Anderson, California
(population 9,022) received a call about a dead and
mutilated female calf only two or three days old.  Hawes
is 72 and has been working on his Anderson, Calif. ranch
since his discharge from the U.S. Army in 1957.  Two years
later (1959), he married his wife Carole."
      "When Harry saw the newborn calf with its neat,
bloodless incisions, he immediately thought of the
mutilated cow he had found five years earlier in 1999.
His veterinarian took photographs of that case and told
Harry that he had no explanation for how the animal's jaw
flesh, eyeballs, udder, rectal and vaginal tissues had
been removed.  Now his newborn heifer had suffered the
same fate."
      "The calf was lying on its right side," Harry was
reported as saying, "And it had its left ear cut off
smooth with its head.  Its eyeball was missing.  The left
side, from the ribcage to the flank, this was entirely cut
out and missing, and all the internal organs from the
lungs, heart and all the way down to the anus were
missing.  The other ear on the underside was cut off about
halfway up--kind of a ragged cut that one was.  It looks
very strange when you see one of these."
      Anderson, Cal. is on Highway 273, located
approximately 151 miles (242 kilometers) north of
Sacramento, the state capital.  (Many thanks to Robert
Fischer for this report.)


RUSSIAN SCIENTIST SAYS HE
FOUND AN ALIEN ARTIFACT
AT THE TUNGUSKA SITE

      "Members of a special expedition researching the site
of the famous Tunguska meteorite fall" of June 1908
"claimed that they have discovered parts from an
extraterrestrial device."
      "The expedition, organized by the Siberian Public
State Foundation 'Tunguska Space Phenomenon,' completed
its work at the scene of the Tunguska meteorite fall on
(Monday) August 9 (2004).  It was the first excavation of
the area since 2000.  Guided by space photos, the
researchers scoured a wider territory in the vicinity of
Poligusa village for parts of the space object that
crashed to Earth in 1908 and was later called the Tunguska
meteorite."
      "The scientists claim they found the remains of an
extraterrestrial technical device that allegedly had an
accident in Siberia in 1908.  They also say they found the
so-called 'deer stone'--an artifact reportedly mentioned
in the reports of the eyewitnesses of the Tunguska
phenomenon.  A part of the 'deer stone' has been delivered
to a laboratory in Krasnoyarsk for research."
      "The head of the expedition, Yuri Lavbin, told
MosNews on Tuesday," August 10, 2004, "that the
researchers had traced the possible trajectory of the
space object, but this time they decided that the object
had traveled from west to east, while members of previous
expeditions had thought that the object had flown from
east to west.  The new approach allowed the expedition
members to find a buried object covered with trees."
      "The object appeared to be a large black cube with
metal.  The researchers chipped off a piece from the
object and will test its composition."
      "In a further comment to MosNews, Lavbin noted that
according to his calculations, the mass of the space
object that collided with Earth in 1908 amounted to about
1 billion tons, and the blast on impact would have
destroyed humanity.  The fact that it did not happen
testifies to the theory that the Tunguska event was an
explosion of an artificial object at an altitude of about
10 kilometers (6 miles)."
      "'I am fully confident, and I can make an official
statement that we were saved by the forces of a superior
civilization,' the scientist said, 'They exploded the
enormous meteor that headed towards us with enormous
speed.'"
      "'Now that the strange object which caused the meteor
to explode has been found at last, we will continue our
research,' Lavbin said."
      "The Tunguska event was an aerial explosion that
occurred near the Tunguska River in Siberia on June 30,
1908.  The blast felled an estimated 60 million trees over
2,150 square kilometers.  On that day, several residents
observed a huge fireball, almost as bright as the sun,
moving across the sky.  A few minutes later, there was a
flash that lit up half the sky, followed by a shock wave
that knocked hundreds of people off their feet and broke
windows up to 650 kilometers (406 miles) away."
      "The explosion registered on seismic stations across
Eurasia and produced fluctuations in atmospheric pressure
strong enough to be detected by the recently-invented
barographs in Britain.  Over the next few weeks, night
skies over Europe and western Russia glowed brightly
enough for people to read by.  In the United States, the
Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory and the Mount Wilson
Observatory observed a decrease in atmospheric
transparency that lasted for several months."
      "The size of the blast was later estimated to be
between 10 and 15 megatons.  Until this year, members of
numerous expeditions had failed to find any remains of the
object that caused the event."  (See MosNews for August
10, 2004, "Russian researcher says remains of an alien
spacecraft found in Siberia."  Many thanks to Robert
Fischer and Mary Lou Jones-Drown for this newspaper
article.)

"BABY STAR" BLOWS GIANT
SPACE BUBBLE

      "A vast interstellar bubble illustrates the
surprising power of young stars, say Hubble Space
Telescope scientists."
      "Called N44F, the 35-light-year-diameter 'celestial
geode' (one light-year equals about 5.9 trillion miles--
J.T.) exists because of solar winds from a young star
blasting off its surface at 4 million miles per hour."
(Editor's Note:  That makes the luminous "space bubble" a
mind-boggling 206 trillion miles in diameter.)
      "Astronomers have viewed only a handful of these
interstellar bubbles."
      "Surprisingly, the inside wall of N44F is sculpted
with columns of cool dust and gas as much as 8 light years
(47 trillion miles) high."
(Editor's Note:  In other words, one of those dust columns
would stretch from Earth all the way to Alpha
Centauri...and stick out another 20 trillion miles!)
      "Shock waves in the gas clouds surrounding the young
star may create these columns, perhaps sparking the
formation of other stars."  (See USA Today for August 16,
2004, "Bubble in space formed by young star," page 10B.)


      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us in seven days
for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you next time.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 17

                     Re: The Brocking Report - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:26:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:25:28 -0400
Subject: Re: The Brocking Report - Lehmberg


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:22:36 +0100
>Subject: Re: The Brocking Report

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:07:13 -0500
>>Subject: Re: The Brocking Report

>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:52:20 +0100 (BST)
>>>Subject: The Brocking Report

>>>So Rod Brock has gone. I can only surmise at the reasons but my
>>>guess is he is another victim of the bullying and strutting that
>>>masquerades on this List as ufology.

>><snip>

>>This seems a little out of balance. ...genuflect at the
>>pelicanist idol.....

>Actually Alfred, I did not have you in mind when I made the
>comments.

Whew! I _am_ relieved.

>And to be fair, I can see the counter argument which is that Mr.
>Brock is a big boy and can take care of himself. If he can't
>stand the heat etc.

Which may the best course to continue to take, whenever
possible, in order to be sensitive to, and to facilitate, a
man's pride in self, self-respect, and self-confidence... his
total efficacy of self... is my thinking and experience.

>The only problem with that though is that it doesn't take into
>account the full range of sensitivities.

Even if it does, or may, discount the ones I'd mentioned.

>I suspect there are
>many who have something to contribute who are intimidated by the
>bear pit mentality. Why should they be excluded?

I guess I've just got a different view on things. I don't see
the "exclusion" or the "bear pit", especially here at UpDates. I
see 'lions' and 'tigers' and 'bears', but by my way of thinking
_they_ are all about support for a duplicitously shortsheeting
mainstream, a mainstream that in no way encourages efficacious
advancement, be it spiritual or intellectual... because it
happily _refuses_ to go where its own data goes. This mainstream
'employs' Pelicanist literary commandoes who drift around in
groups of three or four to fan the already murky bottom about a
'specific' (one they many times make up out of their own axe-
ground excretia) in order to discredit and invalidate an
aggregate ufology... in the public 'mind'.... in turn
_substantiating_ that bogus mainstream. Neat trick.

If one wants an example of the kind of corrosive entity I allude
to I point directly to Andy Roberts, fully accepting the
responsibility of the three fingers I point back at myself.

These are what prowl the bear pit, these bizzarro-world
researchers who complicate an issue rather than investigate it,
bully their betters with all manner of hurdles and blue hares,
and smirk condescendingly at a lack of another's willingness to
stand still for their intellectual bigotries, their lack of
collegiality, or their canted biases. These are the strutting
bullies, in my opinion...

>Nevertheless, it's a shame. He does some good work which maybe
>we didn't always acknowledge here.

Which may be true. Still, it distresses me... the dog who barks
at the dog courageous enough to do some appropriate and well
provoked (in my estimation) barking in the first place.
Better..."Hey, thanks Steve, for losing money while sticking
your head up over the berm to raise a consciousness about
UFOs..." than waxing eloquently about how pathetic and foolish
his approach is... Any approach is preferable to _no_
approach... and Bassett stays close enough to the fence.

Sneers push a button with me, provoke my own sneer. They're
especially objectionable when they are born out of ones own lack
of ability to perceive of a world view different than their own.
These guys will never work as hard to credit a case as they will
to dicredit one beause their minds are made up on the issue.
They're the masters of their castle, the owner of their
domain... and in _control_. It's all an illusion of their
conceit... in my opinion. [g]. And it may be from time to time
that the the "truth and a half" will be told from one camp
provoked only by _half_ the truth being told by the 'favored'
other. The "fringers" fill a void that they create, after all.

Jeez - I guess that's enough... huh? <LOL>


alienview.nul
EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 17

              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:07:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:28:57 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:08:42 -0500
>Subject: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>Source: SFGate.COM

>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/08/16/MNGAK88OQQ1.DTL

>08-16-04


>Flying Saucers In New Mexico? Governor Rekindles Roswell
>by
>K. Davidson

>Ten years after the U.S. Air Force closed its books on the claim
>that a UFO crashed in Roswell, N.M., in 1947, a top Democratic
>Party figure wants to reopen the investigation into the cosmic
>legend.

Keay Davidson, who's the San Francisco Chronicle's science
writer, is a longtime skeptic as well as a biographer of Carl
Sagan. I've known him - at least as a phone voice and the
generator of the occasional e-mail - for some years. While he
was getting the article together, he solicited a quote from me,
but I declined, having no particular words of wisdom to offer.

Whatever the final truth about the Roswell incident, I do admire
Gov. Richardson's courage in openly expressing an opinion on so
controversial a matter. My one concern was that Davidson's piece
might damage this conscientious public servant, who may well
have a political future outside New Mexico.

It's clear, however, that Richardson and his office handled
Davidson's questions skillfully, and I imagine that's the last
we will hear about this. In any event, with the nation and the
world in the shape they're in currently, Richardson's opinion
about Roswell is not - and should not be made - a burning issue.


Jerry Clark







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   Aug > Aug 17

                Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:38:04 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:47:39 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Boone


Wait a minute, hooold da' bus!

When I started this thread it was to ask the question why with
all the governments, agencies etc. on Earth no one has come
up with irrefutable ET/Saucer proof.

My point was (before the 'Magonia Mafia' jumped in to add their
two cents), that somebody somewhere has to have a document
or pics or video or witnesses that could break this wide open.

There's no way there can be so efficiently a coverup of such
magnitude that everybody everywhere could be so efficient to
hide, hush up etc.

Our enemies know by now the UFO issue is a hotbed for our
government as no other issue garners such counter intention
as this subject. They ought to know by now that to derail the
entire military industrial complex's sinister agenda all they have
to do is prove that the U.S. government has been hiding UFO/ET
info. Since '47 when this all broke governments by the dozens have
changed hands and nobody has jumped up on tv and said those
magic words, "Hey, when I was King, President, Poobah, the U.S.
told us not to disclose UFO info yadda yadda yadda!"?

What? What's with the silence? If Hussein wanted to get off the
hook all he'd have to say is "The U.S. threatened us with
retaliation if we didn't shut up about UFOs!". Then his pals in
Iran, Syria etc. could join in and it'd be 'katie bar the door'.

What? Castro doesn't know this? Nobody's listening to him?

C'mon, UFOs just don't crash in the U.S. for crying out loud.
Why hasn't Russia or China come up with something?

It only takes a few bona fide government memos to break this.

Russia claims to have found 'alien gizmos' of some sort from the
Tunguska incident but do you believe them? Anything shake from
that tree?

All the disgruntled military personell from around the world and
nobody's talking?

Man, that's some 'super secret organization' that can shut
everybody up everywhere all the time!


Best,

Greg







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   Aug > Aug 17

                          Additions To SDI Archive

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:03:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:03:26 -0400
Subject: Additions To SDI Archive



Thanks to the assistance of Alfred Lehmberg & Bill Weber,
some additions have been made to the Srange Days... Indeed
program archive:

Peter Davenport
Stephen G. Bassett
Stuart Miller
Nick Pope

There are play buttons in the most recent program listings
at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.com/ufo/sdi/program/sdi2004.html

The files are Real Audio.


Errol Bruce-Knapp
Host/Producer
Strange Days... Indeed
NewsTalk 1010 CFRB - Toronto
CJAD 800 - Montreal






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   Aug > Aug 18

                 Re: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings -

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:04:17 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:41:18 -0400
Subject: Re: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings -


>From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:30:21 -0700
>Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 08-15-04

>HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings

<snip>

>Durham Region (Pickering to Oshawa)

>Date:  August 14, 2004
>Time:  6:15 p.m.

>Message:

>Hi Brian, I want to report UFO sighting Aug.14,2004 at 6:15 p.m.
>over the Durham Region (Pickering to Oshawa) high about 30,000
>feet or more. Over the shoreline of Lake Ontario, coin like in
>shape with white light (not too intense) floating very slowly
>high in the sky with blue sky background. Observed with
>binoculars round object of white light. Object was so high,would
>have been very difficult to see with the naked eye if you were
>not sky watching for UFO's.Observation time duration was 15-20
>minutes. (that's how slow the object floated) This is my first
>sighting this year, as last year was 15.

>Take care and I'll keep watching.

>Thank you to the witness for the report.

Hi Brian!

This UFO sighting is recent and detailed enough to allow us to
investigate further and possibly come up with an explanation so
that it too is not filed away as another UFO.

The location, date, time and description of this UFO sighting
agrees with the test done on the Canadian Arrow three-seat space
capsule that was released by a helicopter before splashing down
into Lake Ontario a few kilometers offshore from the Toronto
Islands. See the web page below for pictures and further
details.

http://www.canadianarrow.com/droptest.htm

Unless the very distant UFO the witness saw through binoculars
(it was "...very difficult to see with the naked eye...") was a
foreign craft or a curious ET probe interested in observing this
private space test, I think we can safely conclude that the
likely explanation for this UFO was a spacecraft - one built
here in Canada.


Nick Balaskas







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   Aug > Aug 18

                        UFOIA Galore In FATE Magazine

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:34:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:44:36 -0400
Subject: UFOIA Galore In FATE Magazine


Any newcomers to the UFO UpDates List curious about some of my
earlier efforts promoting greater UFO Freedom of Information and
Accountability may satisfy that curiosity by perusing my essay
"Habeas Whom? - A Retrospective Review of the UFO Habeas Corpus
Petition," published in the August 2004 issue of FATE magazine.

This small-sized - but deep-probing - newsstand magazine can be
found in some of the big retail book-store chains (e.g., Books-
A-Million).

With its 50-some-year-old specialization in "True Reports of the
Strange and Unknown", FATE remains a trailblazer in presenting
serious analysis and discussion of the worldwide 'UFO problem'.

And, naturally, part of the ongoing research and discourse on
UFO reality (and on the politics of UFOlogy) benefits from
regular use of the U. S. Freedom of Information Act.  Turn to
FATE, periodically, for some results of that usage.








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   Aug > Aug 18

                      Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:12:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:47:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed - Boone


>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:26:08 -0700
>Subject: Re: Burisch Story Exposed

<snip>

>The 'investigation' into Burisch was plainly sloppy. For those
>of you who did not hear Howe on Coast To Coast AM talking about
>Burisch, host George Noory asked Howe if she had verified any of
>Burisch's credentials and Howe said she didn't have to becuase
>she believed Burisch was telling the truth because he was
>sincere.

<snip>

That's freakin' scary!

For Howe, a long time journalist with awards to say she "didn't
have to because she believed Burisch was telling the truth
because he was sincere." would have gotten her tossed out of the
newsroom on her ear. If you hadn't referred to a source I could
check on it I wouldn't have believed it!

I find that way out of line for someone of her calibre. I don't
know why she would do that or maybe the lines got screwed up but
in every case you've got to at the least make an attempt to
verify credentials. Sometimes you really can't but you then have
to make that call. Usually the senior editor will have to weigh
that depending on the 'alarming' nature of the source and
message.

That's a goosepimpler of a revelation Royce. :)


Best,

Greg








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   Aug > Aug 18

                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:20:29 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:48:58 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:07:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:08:42 -0500
>>Subject: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>>Flying Saucers In New Mexico? Governor Rekindles Roswell
>>by
>>K. Davidson

>>Ten years after the U.S. Air Force closed its books on the claim
>>that a UFO crashed in Roswell, N.M., in 1947, a top Democratic
>>Party figure wants to reopen the investigation into the cosmic
>>legend.

>Keay Davidson, who's the San Francisco Chronicle's science
>writer, is a longtime skeptic as well as a biographer of Carl
>Sagan. I've known him - at least as a phone voice and the
>generator of the occasional e-mail - for some years. While he
>was getting the article together, he solicited a quote from me,
>but I declined, having no particular words of wisdom to offer.

>Whatever the final truth about the Roswell incident, I do admire
>Gov. Richardson's courage in openly expressing an opinion on so
>controversial a matter. My one concern was that Davidson's piece
>might damage this conscientious public servant, who may well
>have a political future outside New Mexico.

>It's clear, however, that Richardson and his office handled
>Davidson's questions skillfully, and I imagine that's the last
>we will hear about this. In any event, with the nation and the
>world in the shape they're in currently, Richardson's opinion
>about Roswell is not - and should not be made - a burning issue.

<snip>

Thank God! Finally a UFO authority stands up and implicitely
recognizes that this whole abduction phenomena, possibly
involving a few thousand people over the years, is just a
figment of the imagination.

It's about time.







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   Aug > Aug 18

               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:28:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:50:46 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming


>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:00:59 +0100
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:56:35 -0500
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:56:34 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>Tim Printy has just reproduced, on film -- without "digital
>>>techniques" -- the proposed use of an internal mask. And it
>>>worked: http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/trin6.html

>>An _internal_ mask? That means that Barauna would have been
>>messing around with changing masks in order to get the different
>>shapes the object took on out in full view of everyone (and
>>opening the camera in the sunlight, which I would presume would
>>not be a good idea, either).

>Actually there might be a way of getting around this. See:

>http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/intermask.htm

>The problems are largely (if not wholly) circumstantial. See:

>http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/printy-details.htm

Interesting, but Barauna would still have to have gotten rid of
the extra role of film in the presence of the naval officers
somehow without them noticing.

>>According to the captain of the ship (_not_ Barauna):
>>"A strong emotional upset was observed in all persons who
>>sighted the object, including the photographer, civilians and
>>members of the ship=B9s crew."

>In the interests of accuracy this information came from Capt.
>Bacellar, who was commander of the Trindade Island garrison, not
>from the Captain of the vessel. It is true that we have no
>*direct*, information whatsoever (pro or con) from the Captain
>or any identified officer or named crewman of the vessel, except
>a single statement by the ship's Captain (quoted by US Naval
>Attache, Capt. Sunderland in 1958) that his assistant, an
>unnamed Lt.Commander, was himself a witness (of the UFO it is
>usually presumed, although he could perhaps have meant the
>negatives).

I may have scrambled up the chain of command, but the important
point is that Bacellar was a naval officer whose report
indicated that crew members had seen the object. He was also
apparently on the ship, at least when they went into the dark
room. Even though the crew members weren't cited by name, I
think it's really stretching it to suppose that the officers
took Barauna's word for it that some of their own subordinates
had seen the object and that they never bothered to ask the crew
directly. The entire crew was right there, after all, and the
officers' other actions didn't suggest that they were inclined
to put unquestioning faith in Barauna. I got the impression that
their first reaction was very skeptical, as suggested by their
being in the dark room when the film was developed.








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   Aug > Aug 18

                 World Of The Strange Newsletter - 08-15-04

From: Louse Lowry <SHnSASSY1.nul>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:17:17 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:57:13 -0400
Subject: World Of The Strange Newsletter - 08-15-04


World Of The Strange Newsletter - August 8/15/2004


World Of The Strange Newsletter
Edition: August 8/15/2004
Editor: TJ Elias
Email: para.nul
Web: http://www.worldofthestrange.com

###################
In this issue...

#1. Another Whistle-Blower is being Persecuted (By David E.
Twichell)
#2. The Truth Is Still Out There (By Paul Ginsparg)
#3. Astro and Cosmo Facts, NASA FACTS
#4. Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites (Source: BBC News)
#5. Significent History (Compiled by TJ Elias)
#6. Amazing Personal Encounters With Synchronicity And Other Strange
Phenomena (By: Raymond E. Fowler)
#7. Notable August Close Encounters in History (Compiled by: TJ
Elias)
#8. Little Known Facts About Roswell, New Mexico (by: Dennis G.
Balthaser)
#9. Edgar Cayce - Intro
#10. Quote of the Month
#11. Questions And Answers (By C.A. Honey)



###################
Welcome To the WOTS Mid-month Newsletter Edition

Hello again from WorldOfTheStrange.com, your connection to the
paranormal world around us.

Visit the WorldOfTheStrange website. It contains breaking news and
interesting stories.

http://www.worldofthestrange.com


If you are viewing this and the links are not working, please go
to the website and view the newsletter. The links will work
there. Many email systems and web sites do not hyperlink the
links correctly (mainly because the links are so long).

This newsletter would not be possible without the contributions
of the authors and the research of our staff members, especially
Louise Lowry (WOTS founder and co-owner). Many thanks to you
all.


###################
#1. Another Whistle-Blower is being Persecuted (By David E.
Twichell)

Once again a seeker of the truth, involving the UFO/abduction
phenomenon, is being persecuted for coming forward with his
findings. Dr. Michael Salla, Ph.D of American University in
Washington DC is being censured and threatened with possible
dismissal from his position as "researcher-in-residence" with
the institution as a result of his scholarly investigations into
the possibility of an alien presence in our world.

For more, see:

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/nlv1675.html


###################
#2. The Truth Is Still Out There (By Paul Ginsparg)

Stephen Hawking's recent concession that black holes do not
irretrievably eradicate information after all has garnered much
attention. It is refreshing to see the public focused, if just
for a moment, on an important conundrum that has fascinated
theoretical physicists for three decades, and prompted much
conceptual progress. The scientific issues, however, remain much
less settled than Dr. Hawking's celebrated wager on the
question. He most recently pronounced: "If you jump into a black
hole, your mass energy will be returned to our universe, but in
a mangled form, which contains information about what you were
like but in an unrecognizable state."
For more, see:

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/nlv1672.html


###################
World Of The Strange Web Site

The World Of The Strange web site has served over 2 million
pages in the past year.. We are pleased at how many of you have
stopped in to visit and even register to gain access to our
special features. We are serving over 200,000 page views per
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Visit us today and spread the word about the site. A great way
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We do not resell or share our user information with anyone. The
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http://www.worldofthestrange.com



###################
#3. Astro and Cosmo Facts, NASA FACTS

NASA was formed in 1958 and from the very start a number of it's
astronauts and test pilots testified to sighting UFOs or craft
of undetermined origin.

Initially Joseph Walker was the first to announce a sighting --
 he told the National Conference on the Peaceful Uses of Space
Research in 1962 that he had an aerial encounter with two disc-
shaped objects the previous month. He had actually filmed the
encounter.

In April 1962, NASA pilot, Joseph Walker, filmed five
cylindrical and disc-shaped objects from his X-15 aircraft.
Another test pilot, reported an incident involving a formation
of UFOs whilst flying at 314,000 feet.

For more, see:

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/nlv1671.html


###################
#4. Public Invited To Hunt Meteorites (Source: BBC News)

Anyone with an unexplained object that has fallen in their back
garden might want to check whether they have found a meteorite.

More than 30 are believed to fall in the United Kingdom each
year - but very few are ever identified.

And the Open University is now encouraging the public to become
meteorite hunters.

A website will help people to discover whether any objects they
find are really from outer space.

For more, see:
revelation." Air Force chief UFO scientific consultant, Dr. J.
Allen Hynek wrote that his UFO investigations are "meticulous"
and "far exceed" that of the government. Dr. Kenneth Ring,
father of Near Death Experience [NDE] research wrote that
Fowler's researched book on Near Death and UFO experiences "may
well have deciphered the ultimate nature and meaning" of these
baffling phenomena.

In SynchroFile, Fowler applies the same kind of meticulous
research into the supernatural-like synchronistic experiences
that permeate his life. This book compiles the results of his
research into Jungian psychology, the New Physics and his study
of a ten-year diary of personal and family experiences of
amazing coincidences and paranormal experiences. His research
leads to the incredulous conclusion that time is an illusion and
that reports of synchronicity, ghosts, out of the body
experiences, near death experiences, UFOs, precognition,
telepathy, and other extrasensory experiences are all individual
expressions of one intelligent-like
meta-phenomenon.

ORDER FROM
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0595315895/tjenet/103-7836407-2495064?cre
ative=125581&camp=2321&link_code=as1

AUTOGRAPHED POSTPAID COPIES ARE AVAILABLE FROM RAY - $25 ($30
Canada) ($35 Overseas)
SEND CHECK OR MONEY ORDER TO
RAY FOWLER
249 MAGUIRE ROAD
KENNEBUNK, ME 04043


###################
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We are looking for help with the Monthly WOTS newsletter and the
Website. Become part of a team of people that enjoys creating a
great newsletter and website for hundreds of readers around the
world. We have a need for assistance in the following areas: No
commitment is necessary. Just a little help every once in a
while would be greatly appreciated.

Content Contributors
If you have any stories or articles to contribute. We are always
looking for items to publish. Submitting articles to be
published in the WOTS newsletter provides exposure for both you
and the subject material you write about. Full credit will be
given to those who author and provide articles

Close Encounters this Month in History
If you like gathering close encounter cases and reports by month,
this is the place for you. We are looking for someone to summarize
the most significant close encounters in history by month. We
publish this section every month in our newsletter.

Web Site Award Of Excellence panel
We are seeking to bring back the WOTS Award Of Excellence
program that was started several years ago by Louise Lowry (the
founder of WOTS). With the huge number of really great web sites
available today, It is becoming more difficult to select those
sites that deserve recognition for their efforts and excellence.
The goal of this program is to seek out, evaluate and/or judge
paranormal related web sites to determine a single monthly web
site that will be awarded the prestigious World Of The Strange
Award Of Excellence. Be a part of the team that accomplishes
this.

New Books/Movies and Reviews
If you read a good book or see a good movie that you would like
to share your opinions about, please feel free to sent them to
us or post them directly to our web site.

Graphics Work
From time-to-time we are in need of some graphic logos and icons
for the website. If you have the ability and time to create some
of these items, please let us know.


###################
#7. Notable August Close Encounters in History (Compiled by: TJ
Elias)

1566-08-07; Switzerland, Basel
1566 - UFOs Do Battle In The Heavens Over Basel, Switzerland
A student in Basel, Switzerland reported that just after dawn on
August 7, 1566, "many large, black globes were seen in the air,
moving before the sun at great speed and turning against each other
as if fighting. Some of them became red and fiery and afterwards
faded and went out."

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/cev1175.html

--
1663-08-15; Russia/USSR, Roboziero
An unidentified group of people observed a UFO as it flew over them
at low altitude.

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/cev28.html

--
1883-08-12; Mexico, -
Astronomer Jose Bonilla, at Zacatecas Observatory, photographed
formations of 15 to 20 disc-shaped objects crossing the face of the
sun.
http://www.worldofthestrange.com/cev199.html http://www.worldo
fthestrange.com/cev199.html

--
1911-08-18; USA, Nevada, Reno
The August 18, 1911 "Reno (NV) Gazette" carried a brief item
tided "Meteor From The Sea Does Strange Stunts." It is said that
upon the arrival of the ocean liner "America Maru" in San Francisco
from the Orient on August l7th a report was made of a meteor
which "climbed out of the sea like a skyrocket, traveled through a
great arc and disappeared." The captain, A.C. Stevens, said it had a
great fiery head and a long trail and was seen on August 11th.
http://www.worldofthestrange.com/cev1357.html http://www.world
ofthestrange.com/cev1357.html

--
1927-08-05; Mongolia
We all saw, in a direction from north to south, something big and
shiny reflecting the sun, like a huge oval moving at great speed.
Crossing our camp, this thing changed in its direction from south to
southwest.
http://www.worldofthestrange.com/cev268.html http://www.worldo
fthestrange.com/cev268.html

--
1950-08-??; RAF Farnborough
In August 1950 at RAF Farnborough, Stan Hubbard, an experienced
test pilot, was walking across the airfield when he heard a
humming, hissing sound. "I turned round and saw a strange object
approaching. It looked like an edge-on view of a sports discus.
It was pearly grey and appeared to be crackling and sparking and
gave the impression there was something moving on it."

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/cev1177.html

--
1951-08-25; USA, Texas, Lubbock
Hundreds of people around Lubbock reported seeing objects
flashing across the sky.

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/cev1963.html

--
1952-08-01; Salem Coast Guard Air Station
The US Coast Guard released a photograph of unidentified aerial
phenomena (i.e. a UFO), taken by a 21-year old CG photographer
http://www.worldofthestrange.com/cev1181.html

--
1954-08-31; Australia
One of the most controversial radar visual reports of the fifties
occurred on August 31st, 1954. The story leaked out in December,
1954, and made front page headlines.

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/cev1183.html

--
1956-08-13; Lakenheath/Bentwaters
These 1956 events have become iconic in status among UFO
historians as 'the Lakenheath case' or 'the
Lakenheath/Bentwaters case', one of the few incidents classified
as 'unexplained' by the 1969 Colorado University UFO study
commissioned by the US Air Force, which conceded that "the
probability that at least one genuine UFO was involved appears
to be fairly high."

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/cev1184.html

--
1965-08-03; USA, California, Santa Ana
Highway engineer Rex Heflin took a series of 4 Polaroid photos
of a silvery craft near Santa Ana, California. Over a period of
about 2 minutes the craft moved east, 'wobbling' slightly,
gained altitude slowly, then increased its velocity and altitude
more rapidly, leaving behind a ring of smokelike vapour.

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/cev1188.html



--
Our searchable Close Encounter database contains over 8,000
reports from BC to 2004. Feel free to submit reports to our
site.


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#8. Little Known Facts About Roswell, New Mexico (by: Dennis G.
Balthaser)

Moving to Roswell New Mexico from Texas in 1996 to continue my
interest in Ufology, provided me with a good base for doing that
research, and also gave me the opportunity to learn a lot more
about my new home state, and particularly the town of Roswell
and Chaves County. With the help of many "locals", and
particularly information I've gathered from Elvis E. Fleming,
Chief Archivist of the Historical Society for Southeast New
Mexico, Inc. www.hssnm.net I will try to share some information
with you that perhaps you've not read or heard about before
concerning the area of New Mexico where the 1947 UFO crash
occurred.

For more, see:

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/nlv1676.html


###################
#9. Edgar Cayce - Intro

Edgar Cayce (1877-1945) - "The Sleeping Prophet".

Cayce was born on a farm near Hopkinsville, Kentucky on March
18, 1877. At an early age he gave evidence of his budding
talent: he was able to master his school lessons by sleeping on
his books. At the age of twenty-one he developed a gradual
throat paralysis which threatened the loss of his voice. When
doctors were unable to find a cause for his condition, Cayce
entered the same hypnotic sleep that had enabled him to learn
his school lessons years before. In that state, he was able to
recommend a cure which successfully repaired his throat muscles
and restored his voice. It was soon discovered that he could do
the same for others.

For more, see:

explanation than that thus far given by the Air Force, I
strongly recommend that there be a committee investigation [of
the UFO phenomenon]." Congressman [later President] Gerald Ford,
1966



For more, see:

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/reftid1218.html


###################
#11. Questions And Answers (By C.A. Honey)

When I started writing my recent book, I had several people go
over my manuscript in order to find grammatical or spelling
errors that I might have missed. Some came back with errors
pointed out but also with questions attached. Since they needed
further clarification I can rightly assume that others will need
it also. Therefore, I am going to make this article a series of
those questions with my answers. If you have any questions on
any of my articles or books, please feel free to ask for
explanation also, and in addition to sending you an answer, I'll
include them in revisions to this article.

For more, see:

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/nlv1670.html


###################
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reviews, Movie reviews, Biographies and more.

Submission deadlines: We typically finalize the preparation of
the newsletter 1 week prior to it being published. All
submissions for the next newsletter need to be submitted prior
to that time.


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TJ Elias - Newsletter Editor, Webmaster
Louise Lowry - Contributing Newsletter Editor, Assistant Site
Administrator, Forum Moderator
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Matt Posner - Newsletter Article Author
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Please join our team


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Please visit our book section for an extensive listing of
paranormal related books. Purchasing books via our web site
generates revenue that helps us provide these services to you at
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The WOTS newsletters and web site are created and maintained to
provide research information for paranormal researchers and
investigators as well as novices and the curious.



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reserved. Readers may redistribute or post the entire newsletter
on their Web Sites or newsgroups provided that the entire
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World Of The Strange http://www.worldofthestrange.com/
Para-Discussion List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Para-Discuss/







   UFO UpDates
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 18

                   Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo - Jack

From: Victoria Jack <isis777.nul>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:44:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:00:23 -0400
Subject: Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo - Jack


[Non-Subscriber Post]

>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:06:02 -0700
>Subject: Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo

>>From: Victoria Jack <isis777.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:47:28 -0400
>>Subject: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo

>>********************************************

>>THE BAY AREA UFO EXPO
>>2351 Alexis Lane ~ Tracy, CA 95377

>>For Immediate Release...

>>THE BAY AREA UFO EXPO

>>August 28-29 2004

>>Westin Santa Clara
>>5100 Great America Parkway
>>Santa Clara, CA 95051

>>You've seen "Taken" and "The 4,400" on television. You've
>>experienced the awe and wonder of films like "Close Encounters"
>>and "Contact." Now get ready for the reality and truth behind
>>these amazing stories.

><snip>

>>Also presenting this year are William Henry, James Gilliland
>>Lloyd Pye, Jaime Maussan, Richard Dolan, Michael Horn, Tricia
>>McCannon and many more! Our special guests include George Noory
>>of Coast To Coast AM, The Sci-Fi Channel, Bill Birnes of UFO
>>Magazine and Sean David Morton.

>Sean David Morton associated with "truth" and "reality"... now
>there's a laugh.  Sad to see some are still willing to promote
>this phony...

Sean David Morton is not speaking at the Expo this year, he's
only coming down to visit and to introduce George Noory.

You hit me pretty hard in 9/11; I couldn't cancel the
conference. If you would ever like to come down for yourself
and check things out, I'd be glad to have you as a guest.


Most Sincerely,

Victoria Jack
Executive Producer
www.thebayareaufoexpo.com
(209) 836-4281






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 18

                Letter-To-Editor Of The Roswell Daily Record

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 05:13:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:03:30 -0400
Subject: Letter-To-Editor Of The Roswell Daily Record


AN OPEN LETTER TO THE NEW MEXICO GOVERNOR:

To:   Hon. Bill Richardson
      Governor of New Mexico

From: Larry W. Bryant
      Director, Washington, D.C., Office of Citizens Against UFO Secrecy
      3518 Martha Custis Drive
      Alexandria, VA 22302

Date: August 18, 2004


Mr. Richardson:

Now that you and some other New Mexico leaders have gone on
record as favoring a formal, governmental re-examination of the
so-called Roswell Incident of July 1947, I offer you the
following proposal:

For some time now, New Mexicans have possessed a fairly
practical key for unlocking the Pandora's Box that conceals the
Ultimate Secret from public view -- i.e., that one or more
federal agencies took part in confiscating the artifacts,
technology, and crew of a crash-landed "flying saucer." (The
only other state so equipped happens to be Oklahoma.)

I refer, of course, to New Mexico's constitutional provision for
the empaneling of a state grand jury upon a given county
district court's receipt of the requisite several hundred
citizens' signatures on a petition calling for that empanelment.

In the case of Roswell, this specially empaneled grand jury in
Chaves County would exercise its investigatory-and-reporting
function as a sort of Truth Commission focusing on the following
questions raised by the Roswell Incident:

(1) Who authorized, conducted, and suppressed the official
craft-retrieval operation?

(2) Where are ALL the "smoking gun" records of that operation,
and what role did any New Mexico official play in it?

(3) What New Mexico laws/regulations have been violated by the
operation and by its continued coverup?

(4) Where are the confiscated materiel and other wreckage of the
craft being stored, by whom, and under what legal authority?

(5) What harm has come to any New Mexico citizen via any acts of
commission and/or omission on the part of any official
associated with the operation?

(6) What financial, cultural, and technological loss has the
state of New Mexico incurred because of its having been
arbitrarily excluded from the decisionmaking process on the
operation's objectives, conduct, and findings?

(7) How can the New Mexico government avoid repetition of the
inherent lack of accountability for what went wrong (and why)
with the Roswell Incident, should such an event ever to recur on
New Mexico soil?

Of course, the sought-for grand jury would have no power to
subpoena evidence from federal personnel, but it could INVITE
any of those personnel to submit evidence. In the case of
prospective UFO-coverup-whistleblower testimony from the ranks
of former intelligence and law-enforcement personnel, this
people's panel would serve as an ideal safety zone for delivery
of their uncensored accounts.

During the course of the grand jury's data collection/analysis,
the New Mexico government's public affairs office could mount a
public-service advertising campaign to jump-start the
acquisition of potential witnesses/evidence/deathbed
confessions, etc., for relay to the grand jury.

Governor, if your announced desire to bring the Roswell Incident
into the full light of inspection and exposure means anything
beyond lip service, it should mean at least three key goals:

(1) To empower the stakeholdership of New Mexico in the events,
activities, policies, and principals surrounding the Roswell
Incident and its aftermath.

(2) To restore a part of New Mexico history stolen from it by
certain federal officials responsible for creating and keeping
the Ultimate Secret.

(3) To let the yet-to-be-exposed evidence of the retrieved
Roswell craft speak for itself -- for the perpetual benefit of
humanity and for the promise of eventual earthly contact with
other "hardware from elsewhere."

As you weigh this proposal and proceed to have it implemented, I
ask that you keep me and the rest of the public regularly
informed of your progress. Thank you for this consideration.


Larry W. Bryant










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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 18

               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:17:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:07:21 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough


>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:15:40 -0300
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:22:54 EDT
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:56:34 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>The Ocean Wave Patterns can be located quite precisely on the
>>ocean surface whereas the Cloud Patterns suffer from the
>>difficulty of not being sure how high and how far away.
>>Scientific analysis therefore must prefer the time lapse
>>indicators from Ocean Wave Patterns over that of the highly
>>uncertain Cloud Patterns.

>That should be very interesting. "Ocean Wave Patterns" are
>rapidly changing patterns, compared to clouds. The changes are
>also much more constrained, again compared to clouds. On the
>series of four photos, there's a significant overlapping only
>between the first and the last photo. I wonder how certain can
>an analysis be between two photos. Of course, we have the same
>problems if we consider the clouds.

>>Martin Shough has tackled the difficult problem of analysis of
>>prevailing meteorological conditions over the Trindade region in
>>January and found that quite high speed winds (and thus clouds)
>>are found then.

>Even taking his work at face value, it suggests that it would be
>_possible_ that a time lapse of _at least_ two minutes could
>account for the clouds change. And that making several
>allowances. The time lapse, from his own work (assuming it
>correctly measured cloud displacements, which includes assuming
>that the clouds are indeed the same), could have been greater
>than 5 minutes for a wind speed of 30 knots. From 2 to 5
>minutes, that's already a significant difference with the
>testimony.

Hi Mori and List

Yes of course there is uncertainty, which is exactly why I
discuss a range of values for a range of possible windspeeds.
There is also obviously uncertainty about the actual altitude of
the clouds concerned, meaning in particular the high stratiform
cloud. But I should correct the implication that reducing the
uncertainty would be likely to favour lower true rates of cloud
displacement and a longer elapsed time.

This is not at all sure. Here "possible windspeeds" means just
the actual windspeeds within the general sea area given in Navy
models for the same season of the year 2004. Call this the
'control date'. Winds of 80 knots are shown at around 33,000'
off the coast of Brazil for the control date. At a reasonable
height for near-equatorial cirrus (~ 35,000' or so) 80 knot
winds would displace the cloud pattern identified in about 2
minutes. But it is statistically unlikely that the control date
happens to be exceptional and so one can reasonably infer that
the range of variation is likely if anything to be greater than
the range of values I have used (no 40-year averages were
available like those for surface winds). A greater range of
variation (i.e., more uncertainty) would shorten the implied
lower limit of elapsed time below 2 minutes.

The other major unknown is of course the cloud altitude. If the
stratiform cloud is not true cirrus (the highest type of such
cloud) but say altostratus - which is not especially unlikely,
despite Barauna's opinion that it was cirrus - then it was a lot
lower and the windspeed required for the same angular
displacement falls proportionately. This is also the case if a
cirrus layer was unusually low. For example, a wind of 50 knots
at 20,000' would imply an elapsed time of under 2 minutes.
Again, the uncertainty tends to reduce this lower limit.

For these and other reasons I said on the site that the figures
given should be regarded as upper limits on the possible value
of this extremum. Obviously this doesn't mean that the true
value (if only we had a balloon sounding for the 16 Jan 1958)
would not be found to approach the opposite extremum, with high
cirrus drifting with winds of only a few knots. Assuming such
winds a factor 10 or 20 slower, the elapsed time could be a
factor 10 or 20 longer, say 20-40 minutes. But this upper limit
is in no way more probable a priori than the lower limit. The
uncertainty does not tend to favour an inconsistency.

In this situation dealing with the uncertainty means appealing
to other information. For example, is the lack of evident change
in the solar shadow angle between P1 and P4(orP6) more
consistent with a brief interval of <2 minutes or with a long
interval of half an hour or more? Do the overall sea conditions
change? Can identifiable wave patterns be correlated with known
ocean current rates east of the island to constrain the elapsed
time? (as Brad Sparks reports; and incidentally, re the priority
issue, I discovered that Brad had indeed already done this work
long before when I suggested the same thing to him in January
this year). Do the photographs individually show cloud that
looks to be static, or cloud that looks to be dynamic, under the
influence of winds?

So there's uncertainty, yes. But bearing in mind these factors,
if our hypothesis was that a cloud-motion analysis would reveal
damning evidence of a duration grossly inconsistent with the
witness testimony, then my opinion (for what it's worth) is that
the hypothesis has been falsified. It could still be true, but
we can't claim that it is especially likely to be true (except
on the grounds that there obviously can't be any such things as
flying saucers).


Best

Martin Shough







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 18

              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:29:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:12:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:30:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>My review of Wendy Connors' stands, Mr. Rimmer. One man's
>irrelevancies is another man's sharp stick in your eye. You
>wanted some exercise for your 'beak', don't blame me if you're
>concerned that Stanton Friedman would take said beak down past
>the gum-line. With regard to the Hill case and the Starmap,
>Friedman has been measured and convincing, your lot... decidedly
>not.

Let me try this one last time. Back in the dim and distant past
(i.e. 13th August) you referred to:

"A portrait of the Hills as composed by reactionary
skeptibunkies, noisy negativists, and knee-jerk ufological
denialists paints a picture of a dodgy working class
"interracial" couple (always pointed out)... two people who very
likely made the entire story _up_ out of whole cloth, solely for
purposes of some late-night time in the loony
limelight,presumably."

I asked who these 'skeptibunkies' [sic] were, because if they
had said what you claimed they had said, I thought it was a
pretty silly thing to say as well. However, despite me asking
you on two (2) occasions, you have conspicuously been unable to,
as they say in the tabloids, 'name the guilty men'.

I must assume therefore, unless you are able to respond to this
third (3rd) enquiry, that no sceptics have made such a silly
statement, and you are just making it up ... sir.


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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   Aug > Aug 18

                          Filers Files #35 -- 2004

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:30:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:25:35 -0400
Subject: Filers Files #35 -- 2004


Filers Files #35 =96 2004, Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern
Vice President of Skywatch International
August 19, 2004, Webmaster: Chuck Warren


UFOs Seen in Space

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. These Files make the assumption that
extraterrestrial intelligent life exists. Two UFOs Seen During
ISS Spacewalk, Mars - Cathedral, New York =96 Giant Flying Wing,
New Jersey- Neon-Blue Disk, Pennsylvania =96 Disk, North Carolina
=96 Formation, Florida =96 Flying Triangle, Tennessee =96 Pulsating
light, Michigan - Beam of Light, Missouri =96 Fifty Mechanical
Devices, New Mexico -- Silver Sphere, California - Disk and
Diamond, Washington =96 Flying Triangle, Canada - Circle Inside
"Smoke Ring" Cloud, UK/Scotland - Rectangular Shaped Object,
UK/England - Glowing Object, Crop Circles Flourish In UK, Canada
and Poland, Russian Scientists Alien 'Discovery' Excites,
Australia =96 Three Ovals, and Wreckage of a Saucer and Small
Bodies at Wright Paterson Air Force Base.

Two UFOs Seen During ISS Spacewalk

An EVA (spacewalk) was carried out from ISS (International Space
Station) in the wee hours of 3 August 2004 for the purpose of
changing out experiments, and modifying the docking facilities
on the aft end of the Zvezda Service Module. This was the third
EVA for the Expedition 9 crew. The spacewalk lasted some 4 =BD
hours, but only 12 minutes and 24 seconds of this were of the
space crew at work. During this short downlink, two UFOs were
seen, one traveling at a 45 degree angle in relation to the ISS,
and another almost two minutes later moving horizontally to the
station. Just a few moments later, the live feed was cut off,
and never restored. Two still frames depicting the UFOs can be
seen here. For a more exhaustive report on this EVA, use this
link.

http://www.projectprove.com/eva-9c.htm

More on the mission here.

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=3D13565

First UFO  Still frame #1

Second UFO  Still frame #3

Thanks to =A9 2004 Jeff Challender =96 Director Project P.R.O.V.E.

mail to: project_prove.nul


Mars - Cathedral

Norman Bryden writes, "Here is a better image for you to look
at. If you look closely and follow each line, you can see many
structures and buildings. There also seems to be an overpass
structure to the far left, indicated by the dark straight band.
Follow the road like structure, from the intersection and move
to the top center and a cathedral like structure with white
domes is apparent.

Thanks to Norman Bryden.



MARS MGS CITY IMAGE: #4 CATHEDRAL *PIC*

New York =96 Giant Flying Wing

HUDSON RIVER -- Architect Laurence Owen called to report that he
and his wife and had seen a giant flying wing craft hovering
above the Hudson River on August 12, 2004. The architect, his
wife and a friend were riding in a cab driving down the West
River Drive looking towards New Jersey near the former World
Trade Center at 8:45 PM, when they noticed several commercial
aircraft heading towards the New York Airports flying at several
thousand feet altitude. A huge V shaped craft was just hovering
above the Hudson River as the aircraft flew by. The V-shaped
craft was at least twice as big as the commercial aircraft and
had six or eight lights on its rear perimeter inside the V.
 There were also two lights on the front of the large object.
Laurence held his arm up and the thumb on his outstretched hand
covered the huge craft. The craft was hovering near the World
Trade Center Site, but over the water. They saw the craft for
two minutes until it went behind a building and disappeared.
Phone interview.


QUEENS, NEW YORK CITY

Marian Yancey, Field Investigator writes, "On Saturday evening,
August 7, 2004, we were at a party and saw a neighbor let go of
three or four balloons that we saw gaining altitude at 7:45 PM."
They were silver-like those metallic balloons. But, then I saw
three yellow lights in formation moving through the clouds.
Well, the clouds broke up there was no body to the "plane"--
 just the lights right there in the daylight sky (it was still
light out). I thought of balloons tied together but these lights
did not bob like balloon and the angle was wrong for the sun to
reflect on them to cause them to glow.

It was in a patch of sky above a house on 115th Street right off
Lefferts Boulevard. The lights were high in the sky, and glowed
a golden yellow color and resembled the lights one would see on
an airplane except they were the wrong color. They even had a
similar type of relationship to one another -- one at the
leading edge and two behind and slightly outward on either side
of the leading light. Thanks to Marian Yancey, Arkansas Field
Investigator

New Jersey- Neon-Blue Disk

CAPE MAY =96 On August 3, 2004, a married couple was sitting on
the beach while on vacation at the southern tip of New Jersey
when they saw a neon-blue disk with many lights on the bottom.
The wife reports, "My husband and I were talking when I caught
sight of a neon-blue disk at 10:30 PM, which looked like a
child's sand sifter with thousands of holes which were
illuminated with white light. It passed by extremely fast and
disappeared behind what could have been a cloud, but there were
none out that evening. The sky was clear and full of stars. The
craft was relative to the size of a full moon. I did not hear
any sound with seeing the object. About ten minutes later, I saw
a shooting star and in comparison, this did not even come close.
It was definitely too fast to be an airplane and the neon-
blue/lights as well as fact that it disappeared made me
frightened at first, but then curious so I sat there for another
half an hour hoping to see something else. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

SOUTH PLAINFIELD =96 A small black cone was spotted floating over
a shopping center at 11 PM on July 29, 2004. The small black
cone with point down was suspended in the air. The object was
positioned a couple hundred feet in the air over Middlesex Mall.
The cone was small and featureless, without lights, etc, and was
probably too small to hold a human sized passenger. On the
bottom of the cone was a small mass which tapered downward. The
cone was absolutely still and made no sounds. I could see a
small aircraft in the distance beyond the cone which was turning
toward the cone in my line of sight. By the time the observer
turned around in traffic the cone had disappeared entirely.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Pennsylvania - Disk

ALLENTOWN =96 The witnesses were at Dorney Park on July 29, 2004;
and at 4 PM, took photos of a helicopter flying by with their
digital camera. Later, when we looked at the photo there was a
disc like object next to the helicopter. The witness claims,
"Prior to taking the picture even while taken it I saw nothing
except the copter, but it is in the picture." After viewing the
picture of the helicopter, we saw a disc shaped object next to
the copter. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
 www.UFOCenter.com

North Carolina - Formation


WRIGHTSVILLE BEACH =96 Three to four objects were seen moving
around each other for over an hour over the beach on August 1,
2004 at 3:30 AM. There were three objects and sometimes a fourth
object joins them. There were dancing lights in basically a
triangle pattern. They move and pulse dimming and/or moving to
and away. One was white, one bluish-white which is the smallest
shifted to red at times, one bright yellow (the largest)
shifting to soft yellow-white and fades to more blue but the
full moon affects its color changes as if it is reflecting
moonlight. This one has a specific shape to it like a five
pointed star. A fourth one shows up every now and then appears
like a tiny red dot that darts forward and away. The triangle
pattern seems to rotate around itself mainly clockwise. At 4:50
AM, they are in more of a line pattern and nearly 90 degrees
overhead. There were thunderheads overhead sprinkles of rain the
whole time. The formation of them changes and rotates and has
been going on the whole hour and a half at this point. These are
bright enough to often show through the thunderheads. At 4:58
AM, they flew back to 60 degrees up. Lights are still here but I
am heading back since I am starting to get really rained on.
Objects still darting and shifting brightness. Objects seem to
be unaffected by the weather. I am a Christian and having
trouble explaining what I am looking at. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com


Florida =96 Flying Triangle

VERO BEACH -- A bright white sphere of light 45 degrees from
horizon changing into three smaller lights when closer to the
ground was observed on July 29, 2004. The light was too large
and close to be a star at 8:30 PM. The light hovered above and
returned to the bridge in the opposite direction. Twenty
minutes later I saw a similar bright white light moving and then
dim. After ten minutes I heard a noise from behind, and saw a
boomerang shaped triangle shadowed by three circular lights.
Turning around we witnessed a swarm of these objects flying very
close to the ground. They were too large to be flying so close
together. The swarm of these objects was what was in the farther
distance 10 minutes prior to the incident. www.UFOCenter.com

Ohio - Dark Disk

Fostoria --George Ritter has captured multiple images have been
taken over this area that may indicate and underground base.
Below is the image of a dark disc over a nearby farm heading
towards Lake Eire and Ontario, Canada on August 6, 2004.

BRAMPTON, Ontario, Canada - A round object changing shape and
speed made an S turn - rapidly accelerated out of sight on
August 6, 2004, at 8:20 PM

Round object was visible through light cloud cover approaching
at high speed. It's trajectory was directly behind a large
commercial aircraft that had caught my attention. As it passed
above me, where the sky was clear, craft rapidly de-cellerated
at the same time changing shape (2 curved points appeared at
opposite sides of craft during de-celleration). The craft made
an S turn starting with a turn right, then left, then right
again. As it made this last right turn, it rapidly accelerated
out of sight travelling west. The craft itself was lit up and
the light emitted remained constant even as the shape and speed
were changing.Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Michigan - Beam of Light

Don Ware writes, "Between 10 and 11 PM on 16 July 04 while
looking for Long-eared Owls in Upper Michigan I observed a
bright distinct beam of light high to the north aligned with a
170 degree vector. It appeared to drift to the east, but it was
imbedded in a faint veil of the aurora borealis. A report in
your recent files reminded me of this observation.

Thanks to Don Ware, donware.nul,

http://home.earthlink.net/~donware

Tennessee =96 Pulsating light

BAXTER -- MUFON State Director, Kim Shaffer received a call that
a married couple had witnessed a strange object at about 8:30
PM, on August 9, 2004. They were sitting on their deck enjoying
the twilight when to their due south, they saw a star like
object rising from the horizon. This object was very bright,
several times brighter than Venus at its greatest magnitude. The
witnesses are familiar with astronomical objects. As the object
rose to about 45 degrees, it pulsated very brightly then held
position for about ten minutes when it suddenly took off
westward at very high speed and disappeared. I find this
sighting interesting because these witnesses are intelligent,
educated people who have never seen any such object previously.
Thanks to Kim Shaffer MUFON TN State Director
 http://www.mufontennessee.org/

Missouri =96 Fifty Mechanical Devices in Sky.

JOPLIN =96 A 37 year old Engineering Technician with a consulting
engineering firm with degrees in CADD and Management and in an
MBA program reports, "During my daughter's 14th birthday party
on July 31, 2004, my wife (36), kids (14, 9, 5), mother (73) and
friends were outside when my wife came in to ask me to go out
and tell her what something was." My 9 year old son had spotted
some white spots in the sky at 6:15 PM. When I first saw the
spots, they were very small and I only saw two or three. They
looked to be at a very high altitude. As I scanned the sky, I
saw at least 50 of the spots overhead. I ran in to get some
binoculars and then observed them. They appeared to have white
mushrooms on the top and bottom, connected by a dark cylinder
and the mushrooms were spinning. They were not in a recognizable
formation, but seemed to be equidistance from each other,
randomly scattered. As they moved from east to west, they were
obscured by some very high, wispy clouds. After all were no
longer visible, there was one larger (or at lower altitude)
device that seemed to move away, then it too disappeared from
sight. The local police had no reports of this and the local
news station is investigating. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director www.UFOCenter.com

New Mexico -- Silver Sphere

ALBUQUERQUE -- At 2 PM, on August 3, 2004, a couple and their
friend were driving east of Albuquerque on Highway 40, when they
witnessed a shiny silver sphere fly over a mountain top at a
high rate of speed. The observer states, "It then came to a
complete stop, hovered a few seconds and then seemed to float
away from our position into a cloud partially concealing
itself." It then reappeared on the other side of the cloud to
our left, hovered, then disappeared from sight. At the time of
the sighting we were driving in our vehicle and captured the
entire incident on a digital camcorder. Played back in slow
motion, aircraft, weather balloons and stars can be ruled out.
It was early afternoon, a few clouds and blue skies. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

New Mexico - Governor rekindles Roswell

Ten years after the U.S. Air Force closed its books on the claim
that a UFO crashed in Roswell, N.M., in 1947, a top Democratic
Party figure wants to reopen the investigation into the cosmic
legend. Despite denials by federal officials, many UFO buffs
cherish the notion that in early summer of 1947, a flying saucer
crashed in rural Roswell, scattering alien bodies and saucer
debris across the terrain. Now Gov. Bill Richardson of New
Mexico, who chaired the recent Democratic convention in Boston,
says in his foreword to a new book that "the mystery surrounding
this crash has never been adequately explained -- not by
independent investigators, and not by the U.S. government...
There are as many theories as there are official explanations.
"Clearly, it would help everyone if the U.S. government
disclosed everything it knows," says Richardson, who served as
Energy secretary under President Bill Clinton. "The American
people can handle the truth -- no matter how bizarre or mundane.
... With full disclosure and our best scientific investigation,
we should be able to find out what happened on that fateful day
in July 1947." The passage appears in a paperback titled "The
Roswell Dig Diaries," published in collaboration with TV's SciFi
Channel by Pocket Books, a division of Simon & Schuster. The
"dig" of the title refers to an archaeological dig at the
supposed crash site. Snip

California - Disk and Diamond

MOJAVE =96 The witness reports a bright light from the west came
close within a few feet then shot into hyper speed to the north
at 2:30 AM, on July 27, 2004. He states, "I was in my backyard
when I saw, a diamond shaped dark/faintly lighted object coming
out of the sky towards me." When I noticed the craft it was on
the side of the brick wall where I was standing. When it came
within five feet of me it started to slow down. I thought it
could maybe be someone playing with a flashlight on a bicycle,
but when I looked over the brick wall, I saw only the light and
nothing else that could be causing the strange glowing object.
Then, it took off quickly in a northern direction. Fifteen to
twenty minutes later, I went into a hypnotic trance and my
memory became impaired for about 6 to 7 hours. www.UFOCenter.com

PALM SPRINGS =96 The observer saw a bright object in the western
sky over the San Jacinto Mts. shoot a colored orb from its body
at 5:00 AM, on July 28, 2004.The object has been observed for
the past several days. It only appears sometime between 3:00 and
5:00 AM. At this time I also observed two colored orbs that
pulsated green, red, and blue. They were very visible through my
binoculars and they appeared to be circular or saucer shape. I
lowered my binoculars and watched the sky, from the bright light
orb shot a colored orb. I woke up my husband, who used the
binoculars and saw the colored orbs as well. Three more orbs
approached (smaller than the two already in sight) and lined up
vertically between the two larger colored orbs. As I watched,
the large white orb slowly ascended higher into the sky as well
as the colored orbs. I know they are ascending slowly because
the mountains are my scale, they appear initially just over the
mountain and as the hour goes by, they slowly ascend upwards
until they disappear into the sky. I think that what I am
witnessing is very unusual and warrants further investigation.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Washington =96 Flying Triangle

SEATTLE -- On July 30, 2004, four yellow-orange lights in a
triangular form were observed flying southwest at 10:50 PM.
 They made no noise. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

Canada - Circle Inside "Smoke Ring" Cloud

SASKATOON =96 The witness was outside working with his notebook
computer as thunderclouds started building on July 30, 2004. He
states, "I leaned back at 12:30 PM and looked straight up into
the sky and directly overhead, there was a smoke ring, about the
size of my thumbnail held at arm's length. It was perfectly
circular and appeared to be swirling inward on itself. In the
center of the smoke ring was a gray dot or small circle. At
first, the dot was almost as large as the area inside the smoke
ring, about the size of a fingernail at arm's length. Over the
next several seconds, the gray dot appeared to get smaller, and
then disappeared. The smoke ring remained, but gradually
dissipated. Thanks to Brian Vike www.hbccufo.com

PORT COLBORNE -- On August 1, 2004, the witness who has twenty
years of investigative/security background, and served as a
military policeman reports a strange cigar shaped object with
rectangular wings moving slowly at low altitude at 5:45 PM. The
wings were longer than the body of craft (individually longer)
and the wings were wider than the width of the craft. It looked
much like a satellite with the traditional solar panel. The body
of the craft was white with the center appearing darker. Wings
also appeared white but difficult to judge because it was
reflecting the sun's light as it flew northwest. It flew slower
than a Beech craft-type but faster than a blimp. Thanks to Brian
Vike www.hbccufo.com

Mexico --Another UFO Reported

PROGRESO.=97 Members of the Centro de An=E1lisis de Fen=F3menos
Espaciales (Space Phenomena Analysis Center) have pointed out
that cases involving people who claim having seen unidentified
flying objects are fairly common in the Yucatan Peninsula, but
they are never widely known due to a lack of diffusion. Cindy
Mart=EDnez S=E1nchez, a partner with this statewide organization,
reports that the phenomenon was seen two nights ago not only
over Ticul, but also over Progreso.

Many residents of the Vicente Guerrero neighborhood were
witnesses to a mysterious cloud with a light that appeared and
vanished in the southern reaches of the port, she says. The
sighting lasted some five hours. Thanks to. Scott Corrales,
Translation (c) 2004

Brazil - UFO on Phone Camera

SAO PAULO -- The Journal of Hispanic Ufology reports, "On
Tuesday, August 3, 2004, "three men were driving on the
Anhanguera Highway" in Brazil's state of Sao Paulo "when they
saw something unusual over a field. They stopped the car, and
two of the men jumped over the fence to get a little closer."
 "One of them had a modern cell phone with him, and he took a
photo of a strange, cylinder-like, silver object hovering a few
meters above the ground." Under the object, which remained
hovering for 30 minutes and emitted a sound that sounded like
'several engines working together, some dust could be seen
lifting into the air."    "The witnesses do not want to be
identified." (Revista UFO for August 2004. Thanks To UFO
ROUNDUP Vol 9, # 33 August 18, 2004 Editor: Joseph Trainor
http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


UK/Scotland - Rectangular Shaped Object

GLASGOW =96 The witness claims an extremely frightening experience
as he walked in Paisley with his dog near the Glasgow airport on
July 27, 2004, when he saw an object flash for about a minute
along the sky, This was an extremely large, completely silent
rectangular object with its corners cut round like a playing
card at 9:10 PM. It was white with very bright white patches
which seemed to move across it's surface as if torch beams were
being aimed onto it. It flew about 20 feet to the west, then
another twenty and then it was gone. It wasn't a constant
motion, it was like blinking. I'm usually a rational person and
have never believed in anything like alien life, but after
thinking about this for a couple of hours I can't put any
explanation to it. It was so close to me and so large. Tonight
I'm not going to sleep, too scared. I know this thing wasn't
anything man made, the material it was made of looked like skin,
its still vivid in my minds eye. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director www.UFOCenter.com

UK/England - Glowing Object

BRISTOL =96 The family was having a barbecue in the back garden on
a lovely warm evening with a very clear sky and sat down to eat
a burger and looked up to see something unusual overhead on July
31, 2004. It was a glowing object quite high in the sky and
moving slowly in an easterly direction. It had the shape of a
coke can that was standing on end and glowed very brightly. I
then pointed it out to the rest of my family, who then all just
gazed into the sky at this strange object, while I darted into
the house to get my camcorder. Upon returning only to find the
film had run out and had to run back in for another. I fed it
into the camera and recorded about forty-three seconds of this
object going into the distance, and can clearly see the shape
and the glow of this object. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

Russian astronaut saw UFO in spaceship porthole

Pravda reports, "Astronaut says he does not believe other
astronauts when they say they have never seen anything unusual
in space Soviet astronaut, USSR Hero Vladimir Kovalenok spent
217 days of his life living in space. The astronaut does not
exclude the existence of extraterrestrial civilizations. "When I
was working at the Salyut orbital station, I saw something
strange in a porthole one day. The object was the size of a
finger. I was surprised to see it was an orbiting object,"
Kovalenko said at the press conference in Moscow on Friday.
[Unable to display image] The astronaut added he called his
partner Viktor Savinykh to take a look at the unidentified
object in space. "It was hard to determine the size and the
speed of an object in space. That is why I can not say exactly,
which size it actually was. Savinykh prepared to take a picture
of it, but the UFO suddenly exploded. Only clouds of smoke were
left. The object split into two interconnected pieces. It was
reminiscent of a dumb-bell. I reported about it to the Mission
Control immediately," the astronaut said. Vladimir Kovalenok
said they had not managed to photograph the object, Interfax
reports. "The Soviet press headlined the event widely. Soviet
newspapers and magazines published a lot of articles and
messages about it, but they were mostly critical articles.
Journalists excluded the existence of the extraterrestrial
reason," Kovalenok was quoted as saying. The astronaut said
nobody knows, what happened that day, when he saw the strange
object in space. "It was probably a UFO, but it was definitely
not mysticism - two people watched it at the same time," said
he. When on Earth, Kovalenok learned specialists had registered
considerable radiation emission the day the astronaut saw the
object. "I do not believe it when astronauts say they have never
seen anything extraordinary in space," concluded Kovalenok.

Russian Scientists Alien 'Discovery' Excites

"Russian scientists claim to have discovered the wreck of an
alien device at the site of an unexplained explosion in Siberia
almost 100 years ago, the Interfax news agency has reported. The
scientists, who belong to the Tunguska space phenomenon public
state fund, said they found the remains of an extra-terrestrial
device that allegedly crashed near the Tunguska River in Siberia
in 1908. They also claim to have discovered a 50 kilogram rock
which they have sent to the Siberian city of Krasnoyarsk for
analysis. The blast in Tunguska, a desolate part of Siberia,
remains one of the 20th century's biggest scientific mysteries.

On June 30, 1908, what is widely believed to be a meteorite
exploded a few kilometers above the Tunguska River, in a blast
that was felt hundreds of kilometers away and devastated more
than 2,000 square kilometers of Siberian forest.

But the exact nature of the body that exploded and its origin
remain a mystery which has spurred countless theories and
controversies.

--AFPThe head of the expedition Yuri Lavbin told MosNews on
Tuesday that the researchers had traced the possible trajectory
of the space object, but this time they counted that it ran from
west to east, unlike the member's previous missions who thought
that the object had flown east to west.

The new approach allowed the expedition members to find a buried
object covered with trees.

The object appeared to be a large block made with metal. The
researchers chipped a piece of the object and will now test its
composition. In his further comment to MosNews, Lavbin noted
that according to his calculations, the mass of the space object
that collided with the Earth in 1908 amounted to almost 1
billion tons and the blast on impact must have destroyed the
humanity. The fact that it did not happen testifies to the
theory that the Tunguska event was an explosion of an artificial
object at an altitude of about 10 kilometers. =93I am fully
confident and I can make an official statement that we were
saved by some forces of a superior civilization,=94 the scientist
said. =93They exploded this enormous meteorite that headed towards
us with enormous speed,=94 he said. Now this great object that
caused the meteorite to explode is found at last. We will
continue our research, he said. Snip

Editor's Note: Many scientists have questioned this report and
alleged findings. We will try to keep you up to date on what
happened at Tungusta.


Australia =96 Three Ovals and Ball of Fire

SYDNEY -- On August 1, 2004, at 12:30 PM, the witness saw three
strange black craft in the sky, flying at 300 kilometers per
hour. There were two small ones and one big one. The biggest
moved upward but did not turn at an angle. They were flying at a
steady rate to the southeast, so the witness drove up the road
for a better look but when he got there they were gone

SYDNEY -- A 60 year old professional male had been out to dinner
with some friends and was driving home at around 1 AM, he
noticed an orange/reddish ball of fire at about 15 degrees above
the horizon and about 2000 feet away. He states, "It was coming
towards my direction, but at a parallel line and was then joined
by a second ball of similar size and shape." At first I thought
it was the afterburners of a low flying military aircraft, but
there were no other lights and I stopped my car and got out to
obtain an uninterrupted look. The lights moved from right to
left and in a northerly direction. They stopped and hung in the
sky for about two minutes and then moved upwards and to the left
or right. The one on the left then moved to a higher altitude
approximately 1-2 mile high and then moved away at such a great
speed that it was clear that nothing we (ordinary mortals) know
of as being made by us. "I immediately made a call to the
Sunday Telegraph Newspaper and reported the incident. They were
defiantly not fire balls or swamp gas, they were objects being
controlled by some sort of intelligence," he stated.

Wreckage of a Saucer and Small Bodies

WRIGHT PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE =96 An Air Force Policeman writes,
"In 1968, while I was fulfilling my Air Force duty as an Air
Policeman at the time I met two Air Force Policeman who had been
newly transferred from Wright Patterson AFB, to Hickam Air Force
Base." When I asked these new guys why they had been
reassigned?" I was shocked to hear their answers. According to
both of these persons, they had been guards outside a top secret
aircraft hanger, and instructed never to enter inside. Yet one
night they both decided to enter and check it out, inside they
found themselves staring at the wreckage of a saucer type of
craft, and some small bodies lay side by side. A Government
civilian contractor entered the hanger after them. Shortly
thereafter they were reduced in rank, and transferred to Hickam
Air Force Base. The story stayed with me, and I believe it to
this day. When they told me the story, I think they were still
in shock from their experience. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research

Saturn's rings

R David Anderson writes, The image shows an anomaly above Saturn
taken by the cassini-huygens satelite N00008393.jpg was taken on
July 30, 2004. The camera was pointing toward SATURN at
approximately 7,526,909 kilometers away, and the image was taken
using the CL1 and UV3 filters. This image has not been validated
or calibrated. A validated/calibrated image will be archived
with the NASA Planetary Data System in 2005. These objects are
moving at a high rate of speed estimated at 100,000 mph causing
the blur.

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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 19

              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:14:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:05:37 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Groff


>From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:20:29 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:07:14 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:08:42 -0500
>>>Subject: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

><snip>

>>>Flying Saucers In New Mexico? Governor Rekindles Roswell
>>>by
>>>K. Davidson

>>>Ten years after the U.S. Air Force closed its books on the claim
>>>that a UFO crashed in Roswell, N.M., in 1947, a top Democratic
>>>Party figure wants to reopen the investigation into the cosmic
>>>legend.

>>Keay Davidson, who's the San Francisco Chronicle's science
>>writer, is a longtime skeptic as well as a biographer of Carl
>>Sagan. I've known him - at least as a phone voice and the
>>generator of the occasional e-mail - for some years. While he
>>was getting the article together, he solicited a quote from me,
>>but I declined, having no particular words of wisdom to offer.

>>Whatever the final truth about the Roswell incident, I do admire
>>Gov. Richardson's courage in openly expressing an opinion on so
>>controversial a matter. My one concern was that Davidson's piece
>>might damage this conscientious public servant, who may well
>>have a political future outside New Mexico.

>>It's clear, however, that Richardson and his office handled
>>Davidson's questions skillfully, and I imagine that's the last
>>we will hear about this. In any event, with the nation and the
>>world in the shape they're in currently, Richardson's opinion
>>about Roswell is not - and should not be made - a burning
issue.

><snip>

>Thank God! Finally a UFO authority stands up and implicitely
>recognizes that this whole abduction phenomena, possibly
>involving a few thousand people over the years, is just a
>figment of the imagination.

>It's about time.

Where in the part of the post that you quoted, or in the article
itself, did anyone imply that the abduction phenomena is "a
figment of the imagination"? I saw no such implication neither
above nor in the article. If I missed it please point it out.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/08/16/MNGAK88OQQ1.DTL

Terry Groff
Field Investigator/Webmaster
Dallas-Fort Worth MUFON
http://mufondfw.com
Webmaster
UFO TOOLS
http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/

"The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas
from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and
refracted the light from Venus" - Agent 'K'







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 19

             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:04:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:15:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:29:20 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:30:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>My review of Wendy Connors' stands, Mr. Rimmer. One man's
>>irrelevancies is another man's sharp stick in your eye. You
>>wanted some exercise for your 'beak', don't blame me if you're
>>concerned that Stanton Friedman would take said beak down past
>>the gum-line. With regard to the Hill case and the Starmap,
>>Friedman has been measured and convincing, your lot... decidedly
>>not.

>Let me try this one last time. Back in the dim and distant past
>(i.e. 13th August) you referred to:

>"A portrait of the Hills as composed by reactionary
>skeptibunkies, noisy negativists, and knee-jerk ufological
>denialists paints a picture of a dodgy working class
>"interracial" couple (always pointed out)... two people who very
>likely made the entire story _up_ out of whole cloth, solely for
>purposes of some late-night time in the loony
>limelight,presumably."

>I asked who these 'skeptibunkies' [sic] were, because if they
>had said what you claimed they had said, I thought it was a
>pretty silly thing to say as well. However, despite me asking
>you on two (2) occasions, you have conspicuously been unable to,
>as they say in the tabloids, 'name the guilty men'.

God, you 'guys' are a piece of work! I wish you all had the
presence of mind to appreciate yourselves the way your
opposition appreciates you. You're so _cleverly_ duplicitous you
should be working for our Republican Re-election Machine! I
wrote a good, impassioned piece, to help Wendy Connors move a
quality product (the antithesis of your shallow end of the pool
rag) and you're trying to shoot it down. Cute - and not
unrecognized.

So reasonable sounding, so rational, so confidently intrepid -
the 'earnest' pelicanist! <LOL>

You see, the way you make your point here is to imply that
reactionary skeptibunkies, noisy negativists, and knee-jerk
ufological denialists - SNKUD, so visually apt - have nothing
negative or oppositional to say about the Hills!

Why, it could almost be implied that Shermer and Nichol and
Klass and McGaha and Roberts - and yourself, presumably - find
the Hills completely _acceptable_ as anecdotal witnesses to a
phenomena that you would otherwise deny, discredit, deride, and
dismiss as the sum product of the misleading, the mislead, or
the mentally ill! _Who_ do you think you're fooling? <LOL>

Forgetting for moment that I am a product of ten years of
absorbing what has been reported about the Hills, and that the
_clear_ impression is that they are derided by their opposition
generally, if not specifically, in the manner that I have
described, you attempt to arbitrarily establish the limits of
your cloistered little playing field - to your advantage - by the
irrelevant challenge to produce a SNKUD who has reported exactly
_that_ or, it never happened, _I_ made it up. The Hills have
never been harrassed by your lot, and the poor maligned and
picked-upon SNKUDs are of the dewy-eyed blameless innocent, once
again. <LOL>

It's like I write that the SNKUDs regularly report the couched
intimation that a spinning planet orbits the Sun in 24 hours.
You fire back a challenge to me that I provide citation where
one of their number has ever clearly reported that the Sun will
come up in the morning, every morning, or my entire argument is
invalidated, and your 'points' are made. That's BS and smoke and
mirrors, Mr. Rimmer, as you are _well_ aware! <LOL>

>I must assume therefore, unless you are able to respond to this
>third (3rd) enquiry, that no sceptics have made such a silly
>statement, and you are just making it up ... sir.

I submit Mr. Rimmer, that it is not to be left to _you_ to
decide what inquiries I'm required to respond to, because they
are not remotely fair-minded, are decidedly unbalanced, and they
just ooze cant, bias, and the arbitrary and, as I have pointed
out to you before, Sir, I'm not here to clear your hurdles -
you're here to clear mine. You produce the ufology and lack of
same. I report on it. Sorry if that puts a little hitch in your
get-along.

It remains that the prevalent mode of the SNKUDs with regard to
the Hills is that they were a dodgy working class "interracial"
couple - pointed out. Two people who very likely made their
entire story _up_ out of whole cloth, presumably for purposes of
some late-night time in the loony limelight. That's not an
invention, Mr. Rimmer, that's a conscientious report from
institutional memory, after a fashion. I'm sure you know the
difference, but maybe not. Another of your ilk, Mr. Roberts,
seems to have trouble with the concept, also.

Now, you trot on out and find me a SNKUD who supports the Hills,
SIR (!), accepts their testimony, vets their account, and then
I'll 'think' about finding you the name of one who runs them
down in a disparaging manner. Somehow, I, and many others in a
rational camp, think I'd _win_ that race. I'm just not moved to
spin my wheels to your disingenuous dictates - sorry.

We both know it would be a waste of time anyway. Its the nature
of your beast that you are not convincible. My toil would be
for nought.

Oh, and tell 'ya what, Spanky, you can capitalize the "S" in
that "sir", or drop it all together. Your smirky insincerity,
especially given how ineffective and disingenuous it is, is not
appreciated.

It killed Barney, I'll bet. Hope you're proud. I wonder how many
others you've hounded into an early grave.


alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged - $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Aug > Aug 19

              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:45:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:17:26 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark


>From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:20:29 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:07:14 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:08:42 -0500
>>>Subject: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell
>>It's clear, however, that Richardson and his office handled
>>Davidson's questions skillfully, and I imagine that's the last
>>we will hear about this. In any event, with the nation and the
>>world in the shape they're in currently, Richardson's opinion
>>about Roswell is not - and should not be made - a burning issue.

>Thank God! Finally a UFO authority stands up and implicitely
>recognizes that this whole abduction phenomena, possibly
>involving a few thousand people over the years, is just a
>figment of the imagination.

>It's about time.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean or even who the
"UFO authority" is supposed to be. My guess is that this is a
rejoinder to something somebody else posted on another thread
and somehow it got attached to this one.

By the way, there is no such thing as "this ... phenomena."
"Phenomenon" is singular, "phenomena" plural - thus "this
phenomenon," "these phenomena."


Jerry Clark







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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 01:35:42 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:19:51 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Ledger


>From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:20:29 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:07:14 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:08:42 -0500
>>>Subject: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>It's clear, however, that Richardson and his office handled
>>Davidson's questions skillfully, and I imagine that's the last
>>we will hear about this. In any event, with the nation and the
>>world in the shape they're in currently, Richardson's opinion
>>about Roswell is not - and should not be made - a burning issue.

>Thank God! Finally a UFO authority stands up and implicitely
>recognizes that this whole abduction phenomena, possibly
>involving a few thousand people over the years, is just a
>figment of the imagination.

>It's about time.


Micheal,

????

You got me on this one. Where was that implied? And where did
you come up with a paltry few thousand?


Don Ledger










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   Aug > Aug 19

                      Ship Serves As Home & UFO Center

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 03:52:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:25:12 -0400
Subject: Ship Serves As Home & UFO Center


Source: The Sun News - Myrtle Beach, Florida

http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/news/local/9438537.htm

088-19-04


Ship Serves As Home, UFO Center

By Bo Petersen

The Associated Press

BOWMAN - Fame hasn't gone to that space between Jody Pendarvis'
ears. His UFO Welcome Center is still ramshackle.

He's built a second flying saucer on top of his now notorious
flying saucer and moved into a control room in between. The whole
works now dwarf the beat-up trailer he keeps alongside. And it's
all up in the air - on cinder blocks.

In fact, the original saucer was repositioned 26 inches closer to
earth and "stabilizer" wood beams were hammered along the rim
after one of those tour groups that keep dropping by got it
wobbling. Codes officers said that wouldn't do.

For extraterrestrials passing through rural Bowman on S.C. 36,
the center - like any good welcome center - can't be missed. The
giant saucers loom behind a rustic post and metal fence just
across the road from a country home flying two American flags.

Nearly 10 years after Pendarvis laid the first nail to a
tongue-in-cheek joke of a backyard project, it has become one of
those eccentric bits of Americana.

The center was beamed into the cosmos, via satellite, when
Pendarvis appeared on Roseanne Barr's TV talk show. He's been
written up in newspapers and magazines worldwide, roasted on TV's
"Liars & Legends," "Comedy Central" and Japanese television.

Ring the bell at the "tour" gate and nobody seems to be home. But
a long ramp begins to winch eerily down from the saucer to the
ground.

Pendarvis emerges with a shrug. He does the now well-rehearsed
routine of stopping in the middle of a sentence to stare off at
something in the sky. He talks about sightings with his eyebrows
jumping up and down for comic effect.

The "U" of "UFO" spray-painted on the saucer wall is dangling
loose. It's a strip of silver tar paper.

As Pendarvis walks across a dirt launch pad strewn with tar
paper, scrap wood, pontoon-like old jet gas tanks and an
EverStart battery, there's a loud pop. One of the portal windows
of the new, "upper" saucer has dropped out.

"Uh-oh. There goes one of my pie plates." The window is, in fact,
a glass pie plate.

In 1995, Pendarvis set out to build a Christmas float with planks
from his grandfather's torn-down house. That turned into a shed
office. That turned into a mystery. The further the construction
got off-center, the more neighbors asked exactly what he was
building. He no longer knew.

But he began selling $1 tickets to its grand opening, and after
awhile, something emerged that was, um, alien.

Whether UFOs arrive or not, the center has put Bowman on the map.
Visitors from as far away as England have detoured down two-lane
country roads to find this smidgeon of a farming town.

Riding past on his Huffy bike, neighbor Edward White stopped to
smile. "It's all right. Everyone in South Carolina knows it's
here. It's excellent."

Pendarvis treats it all with that same hands-in-his-pockets sense
of homespun fun - he built it and, look, they came. "Oh, man,
they love my tour. They want to bring their kids," he said.

The tour is a watch-your-step odyssey through a split-split-level
treehouse of science fiction and messy living. Pendarvis is a
53-year-old bachelor who works at an Orangeburg plant that builds
lawnmowers.

So far, the invention hasn't been able to lift off.

But if there is a big enough wind, Pendarvis is convinced "this
ship'll fly."








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   Aug > Aug 19

                        New Book: The Kelly Incident

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 04:05:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:29:30 -0400
Subject: New Book: The Kelly Incident


Is this the one that someone tried to explain as a band of
circus monkeys in silver suits that had recently escaped from
their pens? 8^]

-----

Source: PRWEB

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/8/prweb150552.htm

NEW UFO BOOK: THE KELLY INCIDENT -- one of the strangest tales
ever told...

Based on a true story, author Anna Karyl, a relative of the
eyewitnesses, brings the original facts to bear in this
fictionalized account of the Kelly-Hopkinsville incident. Eleven
witnesses reported to authorities that a spacecraft of bizarre
aliens invaded their farm and attacked them.

(PRWEB) August 19, 2004 -- Picture the scene...

August, 1955. A warm summer's evening in rural Kentucky, just
after dark. A bevy of crickets serenade the night. A farmer and
his wife entertain friends in their modest home. Guitars picking
and people singing .

A young man exits the farmhouse. Thirsty, he walks quickly to the
well for a drink of water. He pulls up the bucket and takes a
sip. Suddenly, he sees something out of the corner of his eye.

A huge ball of light sails through the sky, plummets into the
darkness, and "something" lands a stone's throw from him! He's
frozen in fear. A moment later, he tears back into the house and
alerts the group .

"Something has landed in the pasture!" he shouts.

The farmer grabs his shotgun. The young man grabs a .22. They
walk silently onto the porch and peer into the dark, dark night.

Without warning, an inhumanly large hand reaches down from the
porch roof and grabs the young man by the hair! He screams as the
farmer struggles to free him. The hand lets him go, then together
they run out into the field. Cocking their guns, the terrified
men turn back to get a bead on this . intruder. But it's not just
one invader on the Siddon farm in Kelly, Kentucky - there's a
whole group of creatures swarming all over the farmhouse!

This is an accurate description of the "Kelly-Hopkinsville
Incident," a true story of a true-life alien encounter that was
investigated and documented by authorities at every level of
government - including the military.

But even after 50 years, this remarkable case remains
unexplained!

Author Anna Karyl, a former resident of the area and a distant
relative of the original eyewitnesses, has woven the facts of
the original Kelly-Hopkinsville alien encounter together with
some of the most intriguing cases in UFOlogy to create a page-
turning, hair-raising novel of suspense, unearthly mystery . and
love.

It's The Kelly Incident - one of the strangest tales ever told!

The book can be purchased online at Gate Way Publishers:

http://gate-way-publishers.com/html/kelly.html#about









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   Aug > Aug 19

                    Re: Filers Files #35 -- 2004 - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 02:25:52 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:32:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Filers Files #35 -- 2004 - Hatch


>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:30:44 -0400
>Subject: Filers Files #35 -- 2004

>Filers Files #35 -- 2004, Skywatch Investigations
>George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern
>Vice President of Skywatch International
>August 19, 2004, Webmaster: Chuck Warren

<snip>


>Mars - Cathedral

>Norman Bryden writes, "Here is a better image for you
>to look at. If you look closely and follow each line,
>you can see many structures and buildings. There also
>seems to be an overpass structure to the far left,
>indicated by the dark straight band.  Follow the road
>like structure, from the intersection and move to the
>top center and a cathedral like structure with white
>domes is apparent.

>Thanks to Norman Bryden.


Please forward as appropriate.....


Hello Norman,

With my reading glasses, all I see is a jumble of rocks. Two
questions suggest themselves, regardless:

1) Can you see any outward indication of the religious
affiliations of the Cathedral?

2)  Regarding the road and overpass, do you see any signs or
whatever suggesting which side of the road traffic drives on?


Thanks in advance

- Larry Hatch








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   Aug > Aug 19

               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:00:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:35:25 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:28:07 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:00:59 +0100
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:56:35 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>>From: Kentaro Mori <airdown.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:56:34 -0300
>>>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>>Tim Printy has just reproduced, on film -- without "digital
>>>>techniques" -- the proposed use of an internal mask. And it
>>>>worked: http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/trin6.html

>>>An _internal_ mask? That means that Barauna would have been
>>>messing around with changing masks in order to get the different
>>>shapes the object took on out in full view of everyone (and
>>>opening the camera in the sunlight, which I would presume would
>>>not be a good idea, either).

>>Actually there might be a way of getting around this. See:

>>http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/intermask.htm

>>The problems are largely (if not wholly) circumstantial. See:

>>http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/printy-details.htm

>Interesting, but Barauna would still have to have gotten rid of
>the extra role of film in the presence of the naval officers
>somehow without them noticing.

I don't necessarily disagree with your opinion, but we do have
to be careful to go through all the hoops to eliminate
alternatives, and the fact is that a roll of (say) a dozen 6x6
frames is probably no more than 2 1/2 feet of film which,
remember, had previously been rolled up on a 2 1/2 inch film
spool. As I said, what about inside the battery compartment of
the flashlight they took in? Or were waste bins examined? What
about an empty chemical bottle or something? Or was there a port
hole to throw the film out of? The point is we can easily
imagine some way around it and there's no way to prove all these
possibilities were even enticipated. Who would have been looking
for another film, once Capt. Bacellar et al had seen and
certified the one they had in their hands as showing the UFO and
the scenes on deck? No one.

Also the deed didn't have to be done "in the presence of naval
officers". As far as we know for sure, *one* naval officer -
Bacellar - stood *outside* the darkroom during processing. No
officer watched the proceedings inside.

>>>According to the captain of the ship (_not_ Barauna):
>>>"A strong emotional upset was observed in all persons who
>>>sighted the object, including the photographer, civilians and
>>>members of the ship=B9s crew."

>>In the interests of accuracy this information came from Capt.
>>Bacellar, who was commander of the Trindade Island garrison, not
>>from the Captain of the vessel. It is true that we have no
>>*direct*, information whatsoever (pro or con) from the Captain
>>or any identified officer or named crewman of the vessel, except
>>a single statement by the ship's Captain (quoted by US Naval
>>Attache, Capt. Sunderland in 1958) that his assistant, an
>>unnamed Lt.Commander, was himself a witness (of the UFO it is
>>usually presumed, although he could perhaps have meant the
>>negatives).

>I may have scrambled up the chain of command, but the important
>point is that Bacellar was a naval officer whose report
>indicated that crew members had seen the object. He was also
>apparently on the ship, at least when they went into the dark
>room.

This is correct.

>Even though the crew members weren't cited by name, I
>think it's really stretching it to suppose that the officers
>took Barauna's word for it that some of their own subordinates
>had seen the object and that they never bothered to ask the crew
>directly.

I agree.

>The entire crew was right there, after all, and the
>officers' other actions didn't suggest that they were inclined
>to put unquestioning faith in Barauna. I got the impression that
>their first reaction was very skeptical, as suggested by their
>being in the dark room when the film was developed.

As I said, no officer was in the darkroom. Nevertheless I agree
that Bacellar's actions suggest caution, if not suspicion. He
said Barauna opened the camera and removed the film in his
presence and that he stayed with Barauna for a full hour until
he'd calmed down, then went with him to the darkroom and waited
outside the door.

It is scarcely conceivable to me, given these precautions, that
Bacellar did not take hold of the film directly from Barauna as
soon as he produced it and subject it to what he called "careful
examination" - by whatever means he found necessary. Bear in
mind that at this time the Navy High Command and Bacellar's Navy
Hydrographic Department was already two weeks into an ongoing
investigation of Trindade Island sightings.


Regards

Martin Shough







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             Re: Letter-To-Editor Of The Roswell Daily Record -

From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:09:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:23:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Letter-To-Editor Of The Roswell Daily Record -


>From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 05:13:47 -0400
>Subject: Letter-To-Editor Of The Roswell Daily Record

>AN OPEN LETTER TO THE NEW MEXICO GOVERNOR:

As I've mentioned here before, my wife's parents live in
Roswell, and we spend about 10 days with them every Christmas.
So I've read the Roswell Daily Record, and I'd note that it's a
thin wisp of a newspaper, which devotes most of its space to
local news, the local high school sports teams, and nationally
syndicated columnists (mostly Dear Abby, Hints from Heloise, and
the like). It's not a paper that appears to have any state-wide
clout, or to want any, or, quite honestly, to have any reason
for having any. If you compare any recent front page with the
famous one in 1947 about the crash, you'd surely think that the
paper has shrunk a lot since then.

Larry's letter is also longer than the letters to the editor
you'll find in the Daily Record. For that matter, it's longer
than almost all the letters to the editor in the New York Times.
I could add that I've never seen anything about UFOs in the
Daily Record, and that the whole subject is regarded as an
annoyance by some large part of the Roswell population.

In spite of all this, I'd never say the Daily Record won't print
Larry's letter, or that Governor Richardson wouldn't read it, if
it was printed. Still, I hope Larry has also sent his letter to
the newspaper in Albuquerque, the state capitol, and directly to
Richardson.


Greg Sandow






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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:16:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:28:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:04:32 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:29:20 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>It remains that the prevalent mode of the SNKUDs with regard to
>the Hills is that they were a dodgy working class "interracial"
>couple - pointed out. Two people who very likely made their
>entire story _up_ out of whole cloth, presumably for purposes of
>some late-night time in the loony limelight. That's not an
>invention, Mr. Rimmer, that's a conscientious report from
>institutional memory, after a fashion. I'm sure you know the
>difference, but maybe not. Another of your ilk, Mr. Roberts,
>seems to have trouble with the concept, also.

<snip>

Mr. Lehmberg,

Please forgive this intrusion by a relative newcomer to the
List.

I think the Hill case is very fascinating, particularly as it
includes that unusual ingredient... the starmap. While your
effort to help promote this new product is admirable, your
comments in response to questions about your statements seem
based on a few unsubstantiated opinions.

I have read articles pro and con about the Hill case, as it
captured my imagination and intellect after seeing the old movie
with James Earl Jones. I cannot remember reading an article
which outlines the case as you describe.

I think that when you make a statement of such an accusatory
nature... that the "portrait by (insert label here) paints a
picture..." is little more than rhetoric in the absence of some
example. When asked to support your statement with such an
example your reaction, rather than a reasonable attempt to
support your statement, is an attack-dog rant on how "you guys"
use such tactics to undermine something.

Perhaps there is a history between you two of which I am
unaware.

But I have no agenda here, and I too thought your comments were
lacking in substantiating data. Does that mean that I am one of
"you guys"?

A reporter as you call yourself would have a rather difficult
time getting such statements into a respectable publication
without citing a single example of what you seem to be so upset
about.

I am also ignorant of the origin of the term pelicanist. But
since I abhor labels as they are generally used to dismiss
discourse, and end arguments without resolution, I would be most
interested in your references for making the statements you
made. Otherwise, I feel that I must dismiss the remainder of
your post as a thinly veiled indictment of some nebulous group
with which you seem to be very angry.

In particular, you note that these (insert label here) always
note that the Hills are an interracial couple. Is it your
implication that this reveals a racist component to their
stance? If so, I find it odd that in every single article... pro
AND con... I can find on the case, the fact of their
interraciality is noted strongly. In fact, it is often used to
support their story, since such a couple would presumably be
reluctant to report such an event, as they would expect to be
looked upon with some skepticism given the times in question. In
other words, their story must be true since they wouldn't call
such attention upon themselves if it was not. Call it what you'd
like, but I call that racism, too. Just not the negative
kind...on the surface anyway.

Please clear this up for me. I respect the work all of you do,
but I think when you make a statement that is of an accusatory
nature, you as a reporter should be able to support it.

Instead, your reaction is one of hyperbole, ridicule, and the
common tendency to lump anyone who questions you into a group so
you can deride their arguments out of hand. While this may seem
convenient to you, to newbies like me it just looks like you're
the same as those that dismiss such stories out of hand, and
dismiss your 'reporting' as the ravings of a (insert label
here). Neither the former nor the latter reaction impresses me.
I certainly am somewhat less impressed with your review of
Wendy's work based on your comments.

Luckily my interest in her new product is not based on reviews,
and is not adversely affected by it... pro or con.

Perhaps when all the labeling and ridicule are exhausted, we can
find a good reason to remain engaged in this debate. Name-
calling, finger- pointing and penile comparisons seem counter-
productive to me.


Regards,

Kyle King






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               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:38:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:29:33 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Miller


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:38:04 EDT
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>Wait a minute, hooold da' bus!

>When I started this thread it was to ask the question why with
>all the governments, agencies etc. on Earth no one has come
>up with irrefutable ET/Saucer proof.

>My point was (before the 'Magonia Mafia' jumped in to add their
>two cents), that somebody somewhere has to have a document
>or pics or video or witnesses that could break this wide open.

>There's no way there can be so efficiently a coverup of such
>magnitude that everybody everywhere could be so efficient to
>hide, hush up etc.

>Our enemies know by now the UFO issue is a hotbed for our
>government as no other issue garners such counter intention
>as this subject. They ought to know by now that to derail the
>entire military industrial complex's sinister agenda all they have
>to do is prove that the U.S. government has been hiding UFO/ET
>info. Since '47 when this all broke governments by the dozens have
>changed hands and nobody has jumped up on tv and said those
>magic words, "Hey, when I was King, President, Poobah, the U.S.
>told us not to disclose UFO info yadda yadda yadda!"?

>What? What's with the silence? If Hussein wanted to get off the
>hook all he'd have to say is "The U.S. threatened us with
>retaliation if we didn't shut up about UFOs!". Then his pals in
>Iran, Syria etc. could join in and it'd be 'katie bar the door'.

>What? Castro doesn't know this? Nobody's listening to him?

>C'mon, UFOs just don't crash in the U.S. for crying out loud.
>Why hasn't Russia or China come up with something?

>It only takes a few bona fide government memos to break this.

>Russia claims to have found 'alien gizmos' of some sort from the
>Tunguska incident but do you believe them? Anything shake from
>that tree?

>All the disgruntled military personell from around the world and
>nobody's talking?

>Man, that's some 'super secret organization' that can shut
>everybody up everywhere all the time!


Hi Greg,

You make some very interesting points, questions I myself have
asked before.

Lets start with the obvious but presumably the least acceptable.
The reason for the silence is because there's nothing to tell
people anything about. Nothing's going on - it's all either
natural phenomena or military aircraft.

or

There is something going on but we all overestimate just exactly
how much the US government knows. Maybe they know as much as we
do and there have been no captured craft, no secret meetings,
etc.and they're too embarrassed to tell us.

or

Only a select few governments know the truth. Perhaps the UK,
USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand maybe. Those within the
enclosed circle of US intelligence collection. I would also
include Russia and China.and quite possibly Brazil and Mexico I
would not include France for example and Germany.

or

The old argument about the Manhattan project and that somehow it
is possible for thousands of people to know something and to
still keep it secret from the rest of the world. Hard to believe
after all this time.

or

Everybody does know but has long realised that it would be
pointless saying anything because the American government would
either just ignore it, no matter how compelling the evidence
presented might be (and no response from the government means it
doesn't get accepted as fact - this we've seen many times
before) or it would be debunked which also wouldn't be difficult
for the government to do, even if it was solid evidence.

So what's the answer? The answer is simple. Bypass the
government. No despot could do this. This would have to come
from Mr. ET himself. And many people say he's doing this
already, over a prolonged period of time, to the point where
over the last two to three generations, the level of
consciousness in regards to this matter is gradually raising
itself and becoming accepted by a larger proportion of the
global population. The interesting question is, at what point is
the level reached where the scales tip over and denial or
ignoring of is no longer feasible?

I've no idea how old you are but you might just be lucky and be
alive when it happens. More likely it will be your children that
will reap the benefit.


Stuart Miller







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   Aug > Aug 20

                  Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:04:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:28:05 -0400
Subject: Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo - Myers


>From: Victoria Jack <isis777.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:44:12 -0700
>Subject: Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo

>[Non-Subscriber Post]

>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:06:02 -0700
>>Subject: Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo

>>>From: Victoria Jack <isis777.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:47:28 -0400
>>>Subject: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo

>>>********************************************

>>>THE BAY AREA UFO EXPO
>>>2351 Alexis Lane ~ Tracy, CA 95377

>>>For Immediate Release...

>>>THE BAY AREA UFO EXPO

>>>August 28-29 2004

>>>Westin Santa Clara
>>>5100 Great America Parkway
>>>Santa Clara, CA 95051

>>>You've seen "Taken" and "The 4,400" on television. You've
>>>experienced the awe and wonder of films like "Close Encounters"
>>>and "Contact." Now get ready for the reality and truth behind
>>>these amazing stories.

>><snip>

>>>Also presenting this year are William Henry, James Gilliland
>>>Lloyd Pye, Jaime Maussan, Richard Dolan, Michael Horn, Tricia
>>>McCannon and many more! Our special guests include George Noory
>>>of Coast To Coast AM, The Sci-Fi Channel, Bill Birnes of UFO
>>>Magazine and Sean David Morton.

>>Sean David Morton associated with "truth" and "reality"... now
>>there's a laugh. Sad to see some are still willing to promote
>>this phony...

>Sean David Morton is not speaking at the Expo this year, he's
>only coming down to visit and to introduce George Noory.

>You hit me pretty hard in 9/11; I couldn't cancel the
>conference. If you would ever like to come down for yourself
>and check things out, I'd be glad to have you as a guest.


Victoria,

Thanks for your response. This is the first time someone
associated with a conference has actually taken the time to
respond, aside from some idiot telling me through third parties
that my time should be spent doing something else or someone
accusing me of being some government disinformation operative or
some other nonsense.

For those unfamiliar with what Victoria is referring to
regarding 9/11, this was a commentary I wrote when people
started hawking 'the truth' about 9/11 before the smoke from the
WTC had even cleared, which I thought of as nothing less than
utterly shameless and smacking of double dipping for dollars.

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/shameless.html

Now that I have a promoter right here, I'd like to ask you a few
questions.....

Victoria, you said two things: You couldn't cancel the
conference in 2001 and that Morton isn't a presenter and is
"only coming down to visit and to introduce George Noory."

First, I'm not completely sure why you brought up being unable
to cancel the conference. Would you clarify what you meant by
that? And if you're talking about me hitting "pretty hard in
9/11" in reference to my commentary, the people that were
selling the blood from 9/11 were more than deserving of that
commentary and the outrage over the antics taking place at that
time.

Secondly, why do conferences continually play host to known
charlatans, seeming to endorse the veracity of claims made by
known UFO idiots by continually associating their names with
'reality' and that catch-all 'the truth'? Why not cast a more
discerning eye on speakers and attempt to host the most credible
presenters?

I also get a sense that if a promoter decides to not host
someone due to a credibility issue, it may impact the promoter
with other speakers that may be friends or associates of the
person in question, or the promoter is pals with that person and
said appearance is more of a favor than anything else.

I know you can't speak for everyone, but I'd be interested in
your response. I've seen too many frauds show up at conferences
with the spotlight directly on them (i.e.: 'Dr.Reed', Lee
Shargel, et al) in spite of all common sense.

Now, when you say Morton is "only coming down to visit and to
introduce George Noory", I take the word "only" as trying to
make a distinction between Morton and the Conference in a way
that minimizes his role.

I'm sure you're aware of Morton's failed lawsuit against me and
my website. His baseless libel case was tossed out when he
couldn't prove any of his claims when it came time to present
evidence in court. When I hear his name associated with anything
resembling 'reality', I can't help being both amused and
astonished.

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/mortonfiles.html

However, it's a free country and free market, you can,
obviously, do what you want at your conference and have whomever
you choose. I just find it hard to believe that anyone having a
serious interest in UFOs would play host to any number of UFO
idiots out there at the cost of serious and credible Ufology.

This isn't to say that all speakers making the conference rounds
are clowns, far from it. But the unfortunate part of the UFO
conference business is that the serious researchers with
credibility get lumped in with Colin Contactee who has been to
every Galactic Federation meeting in every galaxy and can't
corroborate any of his claims.

Based on my past experiences, it appears to me conference
promoters are more interested in making money by selling
sensationalistic tar sprinkled with fluff and are less
interested in promoting more credible researchers by taking a
more objective look at those in the field promoting themselves
as harbingers of 'truth', when they couldn't be anything farther
from it.

Again, everyone has an absolute right, in the U.S., to do what
they want. Conference organizers can host whoever they please
and have presenters on whatever topic they wish. But that
doesn't mean some won't criticize or disagree with it, and it
certainly doesn't make it credible.

Victoria, I'd like to hear your take on this. Thanks for the
invitation to your Conference, I do sincerely appreciate it.
I've found being regular Joe UFO conference attendee is much
more informative.

I await your response and appreciate your time. Thanks.


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"
How can you make up your mind if you only have half the story?








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 20

               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:14:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:28:59 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming


>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:00:56 +0100
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

<snip>

>As I said, no officer was in the darkroom. Nevertheless I agree
>that Bacellar's actions suggest caution, if not suspicion. He
>said Barauna opened the camera and removed the film in his
>presence and that he stayed with Barauna for a full hour until
>he'd calmed down, then went with him to the darkroom and waited
>outside the door.

OK, it was Captain Viegas, one of the alleged members of the
Great Diving Club Conspiracy who went into the darkromm with
him. I haven't done any long-term study of this case (or any
other UFO case for that matter), so I don't always get all the
players straight.

I still think a more traditional double exposure would have been
a much less unwieldy way to do a hoax than a double role of
film. That would, however, would have required that the first
exposure be on a dark background with a model or drawing of an
even darker object. Both methods would run the risks of the
"UFO" looking transparent or showing no internal detail, since
both methods would permit some areas within the object image to
be exposed to light during the second exposure.

>It is scarcely conceivable to me, given these precautions, that
>Bacellar did not take hold of the film directly from Barauna as
>soon as he produced it and subject it to what he called "careful
>examination" - by whatever means he found necessary. Bear in
>mind that at this time the Navy High Command and Bacellar's Navy
>Hydrographic Department was already two weeks into an ongoing
>investigation of Trindade Island sightings.

They might have rules in Brazil about when the property of
citizens can be confiscated by the government. But you have to
wonder, if the film _had_ been confiscated, would the photos
ever have been seen by anyone outside of the Brazilian Navy ever
again? There's been a case or two in the U.S. where a citizen
loaned the government photographs or other UFO-related material
and didn't get back everything that they had given. Of course,
there was no way to prove they weren't lying, and the government
always is given the benefit of the doubt in such cases, not the
citizen.  As I've said prevously in this thread, I don't believe
there is any "global secrecy agenda," but I _do_ believe
military minds and bureaucratic minds tend to think alike all
over the world.







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             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:36:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:35:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:16:08 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:04:32 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:29:20 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

><snip>

>>It remains that the prevalent mode of the SNKUDs with regard to
>>the Hills is that they were a dodgy working class "interracial"
>>couple - pointed out. Two people who very likely made their
>>entire story _up_ out of whole cloth, presumably for purposes of
>>some late-night time in the loony limelight. That's not an
>>invention, Mr. Rimmer, that's a conscientious report from
>>institutional memory, after a fashion. I'm sure you know the
>>difference, but maybe not. Another of your ilk, Mr. Roberts,
>>seems to have trouble with the concept, also.

><snip>

>Please forgive this intrusion by a relative newcomer to the
>List.

>I think the Hill case is very fascinating, particularly as it
>includes that unusual ingredient... the starmap. While your
>effort to help promote this new product is admirable, your
>comments in response to questions about your statements seem
>based on a few unsubstantiated opinions.

>I have read articles pro and con about the Hill case, as it
>captured my imagination and intellect after seeing the old movie
>with James Earl Jones. I cannot remember reading an article
>which outlines the case as you describe.

>I think that when you make a statement of such an accusatory
>nature... that the "portrait by (insert label here) paints a
>picture..." is little more than rhetoric in the absence of some
>example. When asked to support your statement with such an
>example your reaction, rather than a reasonable attempt to
>support your statement, is an attack-dog rant on how "you guys"
>use such tactics to undermine something.

>Perhaps there is a history between you two of which I am
>unaware.

>But I have no agenda here, and I too thought your comments were
>lacking in substantiating data. Does that mean that I am one of
>"you guys"?

>A reporter as you call yourself would have a rather difficult
>time getting such statements into a respectable publication
>without citing a single example of what you seem to be so upset
>about.

>I am also ignorant of the origin of the term pelicanist. But
>since I abhor labels as they are generally used to dismiss
>discourse, and end arguments without resolution, I would be most
>interested in your references for making the statements you
>made. Otherwise, I feel that I must dismiss the remainder of
>your post as a thinly veiled indictment of some nebulous group
>with which you seem to be very angry.

>In particular, you note that these (insert label here) always
>note that the Hills are an interracial couple. Is it your
>implication that this reveals a racist component to their
>stance? If so, I find it odd that in every single article... pro
>AND con... I can find on the case, the fact of their
>interraciality is noted strongly. In fact, it is often used to
>support their story, since such a couple would presumably be
>reluctant to report such an event, as they would expect to be
>looked upon with some skepticism given the times in question. In
>other words, their story must be true since they wouldn't call
>such attention upon themselves if it was not. Call it what you'd
>like, but I call that racism, too. Just not the negative
>kind...on the surface anyway.

>Please clear this up for me. I respect the work all of you do,
>but I think when you make a statement that is of an accusatory
>nature, you as a reporter should be able to support it.

>Instead, your reaction is one of hyperbole, ridicule, and the
>common tendency to lump anyone who questions you into a group so
>you can deride their arguments out of hand. While this may seem
>convenient to you, to newbies like me it just looks like you're
>the same as those that dismiss such stories out of hand, and
>dismiss your 'reporting' as the ravings of a (insert label
>here). Neither the former nor the latter reaction impresses me.
>I certainly am somewhat less impressed with your review of
>Wendy's work based on your comments.

>Luckily my interest in her new product is not based on reviews,
>and is not adversely affected by it... pro or con.

>Perhaps when all the labeling and ridicule are exhausted, we can
>find a good reason to remain engaged in this debate. Name-
>calling, finger-pointing and penile comparisons seem counter-
>productive to me.


It may be, Mr. King, that the phrase "in my opinion" preceding
the paragraph in question is warranted and appropriate... but I
am astonished, still, at the debunking communities stealthy and
unsuspected support for the Hills... and this is forgetting that
one man's name calling is another man's unflinching assessment,
there has to be some finger-pointing to facilitate same, and
that I stand by my "penile comparison", yet.  It may be, Mr.
King, that I drifted to the hyperbolic in an attempt to tell the
truth and a half as I, otherwise, sense only half the truth
being told.  I regret your discommode, Sir.  I'll watch the
gauges a little more closely in the future. Thank you.

That said, let me be clear that it is my opinion that the
ineffable Mr. Rimmer will work a lot harder to discredit
something than he ever would to credit it, making him, in my
opinion, one hell of a lot worse than me.  I look forward, Sir,
to your eventual balanced criticisms of him.


alienview.nul
www.AlienView.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

Photo Album: http://www.alienview.net/AVAlbum.htm
(send picture as attachment to alienview.nul)
Splash page:   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlienViewGroup/
AVGroup Splashpage  http://www.alienview.net/alienviews.htm
Support AVGroup: http://www.alienview.net/help.html
http://www.alienview.net/N2Ltune.html -- The music in me...







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 20

                       The Black Vault Radio Goes Live

From: John Greenewald, Jr. - The Black Vault <bounces.nul>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:15:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:38:26 -0400
Subject: The Black Vault Radio Goes Live


The Black Vault Radio Goes Live

NORTHRIDGE (BlackVault) =96 August 19, 2004 =96 Times have changed.
Realities have shifted. The truth is emerging =96 and the time for
it, is NOW and it's on the radio!

The Black Vault - the premier location for government secrecy
research and documentation -- is going live onto the radio
airwaves, and is set to be a hit!

You can enter The Black Vault online (BlacKVault.com) but now,
enter it on your radio. Join creator John Greenewald, Jr. as he
opens up The Black Vault with the premier of The Black Vault
Radio!

Broadcast throughout the nation on the Cable Radio Network to
over 14,000,000 homes, and broadcast throughout the world on the
Internet - this show will be in the front spotlight on informing
the world.

With affiliates across the nation, you will be able to listen in
to The Black Vault through your cable television network or
satellite provider. Streamed through the audio feeds provided by
your carrier, this will be an un-interrupted and clear signal to
sit back, relax and enjoy The Black Vault Radio!

How? Well, its easy! It streams right on your digital cable box
or on your satellite audio channels. No need to order any
additional packages -- ITS THERE! And that brings The Black
Vault Radio right into your homes. So set your Tivo, set your
VCR, or if you miss it, you can download the shows on the
internet, through The Black Vault archives online!

John will be joined by Hollywood celebrities (Dean Haglund on
August 28th, Eugene Roddenberry on September 18th etc.) UFO and
related genre experts, from around the globe! Learn about their
current research, how they got involved and what have they
found!

It will be a fun filled hour, and one show that will
revolutionize how you view government secrecy!

Tune in every Saturday night from 11:00pm =96 12:00am pacific!

For more information, radio show archives and guest information
visit:

http://www.bvalphaserver.com/article9689.html


Sincerely,

John Greenewald, Jr.
The Black Vault Headquarters
http://www.blackvault.com









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 20

               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:14:33 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:41:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind  - Hall


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:16:08 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:04:32 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:29:20 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>It remains that the prevalent mode of the SNKUDs with regard to
>>the Hills is that they were a dodgy working class "interracial"
>>couple - pointed out. Two people who very likely made their
>>entire story _up_ out of whole cloth, presumably for purposes of
>>some late-night time in the loony limelight. That's not an
>>invention, Mr. Rimmer, that's a conscientious report from
>>institutional memory, after a fashion. I'm sure you know the
>>difference, but maybe not. Another of your ilk, Mr. Roberts,
>>seems to have trouble with the concept, also.

>Please forgive this intrusion by a relative newcomer to the
>List.

>I think the Hill case is very fascinating, particularly as it
>includes that unusual ingredient... the starmap. While your
>effort to help promote this new product is admirable, your
>comments in response to questions about your statements seem
>based on a few unsubstantiated opinions.

>I have read articles pro and con about the Hill case, as it
>captured my imagination and intellect after seeing the old movie
>with James Earl Jones. I cannot remember reading an article
>which outlines the case as you describe.

Kyle,

If all you know about the Hill case is based on "reading
articles" and seeing the James Earl Jones movie, then I suggest
you go back to primary sources: The Interrupted Journey by
John Fuller and Walter N. Webb's original investigation, when I
referred the case to him after hearing from Betty Hill while at
NICAP. Do some homework.

<snip>

>I am also ignorant of the origin of the term pelicanist. But
>since I abhor labels as they are generally used to dismiss
>discourse, and end arguments without resolution, I would be most
>interested in your references for making the statements you
>made. Otherwise, I feel that I must dismiss the remainder of
>your post as a thinly veiled indictment of some nebulous group
>with which you seem to be very angry.

>In particular, you note that these (insert label here) always
>note that the Hills are an interracial couple. Is it your
>implication that this reveals a racist component to their
>stance? If so, I find it odd that in every single article... pro
>AND con... I can find on the case, the fact of their
>interraciality is noted strongly. In fact, it is often used to
>support their story, since such a couple would presumably be
>reluctant to report such an event, as they would expect to be
>looked upon with some skepticism given the times in question. In
>other words, their story must be true since they wouldn't call
>such attention upon themselves if it was not. Call it what you'd
>like, but I call that racism, too. Just not the negative
>kind...on the surface anyway.

In fact, most skeptibunkers never fail to imply or insinuate
such things in their smug certainty that they know the truth,
without ever being bothered by having to investigate anything.
In fact, among the current listers I may be the only one (or at
least one of the few) who actually met and knew Barney and
Betty.

>Please clear this up for me. I respect the work all of you do,
>but I think when you make a statement that is of an accusatory
>nature, you as a reporter should be able to support it.

>Instead, your reaction is one of hyperbole, ridicule, and the
>common tendency to lump anyone who questions you into a group so
>you can deride their arguments out of hand. While this may seem
>convenient to you, to newbies like me it just looks like you're
>the same as those that dismiss such stories out of hand, and
>dismiss your 'reporting' as the ravings of a (insert label
>here). Neither the former nor the latter reaction impresses me.

<snip>

I partially agree with what you say, but fundamentally the
burden of investigation should be on you; it is your job to
weigh and balance the assertions that people make so as to judge
their credibility. But "we" (which I won't bother to define) and
"they" (skeptibunkers) are so far apart that civil discussion
often is impossible.

>Perhaps when all the labeling and ridicule are exhausted, we can
>find a good reason to remain engaged in this debate. Name-
>calling, finger- pointing and penile comparisons seem counter-
>productive to me.

What I often see from my long tenure and historical perspective
is half-informed, highly opinionated people, their minds already
made up about a given case, often because they already 'know'
that UFOs are nonsense, spewing out a lot of garbage. That seems
to be the nature of current so-called "Ufology". Anything but
calm, rational, scientifically oriented discussion.


  - Dick








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   Aug > Aug 20

                Governor Richardson Calls For Answers To UFO

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:46:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:46:26 -0400
Subject: Governor Richardson Calls For Answers To UFO




Source: The Roswell Daily Record

http://www.roswell-record.com/archives/081904/news01.html

08-19-004


Governor Richardson Calls For Answers To UFO Mystery

Shannon Goble
Record Staff Writer

Gov. Bill Richardson wrote in a foreword of a SCI-FI Channel
book that the U.S. government should disclose everything it
knows about the reported 1947 UFO crash outside of Roswell.

In the foreword to the book =93The Roswell Dig Diaries,=94 a book
about an archeological dig conducted at the crash site by
scientists from the University of New Mexico and sponsored by
the SCI-FI Channel, Richardson wrote the incident has not been
=93adequately=94 explained by independent investigators or the U.S.
government. He said full disclosure of the facts by the federal
government would benefit everyone.

=93Openness is our best policy. The American people can handle the
truth no matter how bizarre or mundane,=94 Richardson wrote,
adding =93With full disclosure and our best scientific
investigation, we should be able to find out what happened on
that fateful day in July 1947.=94

Billy Sparks, deputy chief of staff for communications, said the
governor believes with a full disclosure of facts from the U.S.
government, the American people can decide for themselves what
crashed near Roswell in 1947.

The last time the case was reopened was in 1994 when Rep. Steve
Schiff from Albuquerque requested it. Later, the case was closed
by the Air Force after it said the object that crashed was not a
UFO, said Julie Shuster, director of the International UFO
Museum and Research Center in Roswell.

Sparks noted the last time the case was opened, more questions
arose than answers. He said a New Mexico congressman is more
likely to get the case reopened than the governor.

Shuster said the museum supports anything the governor can do to
get the case reopened.

=93We want to know the answers too,=94 she said. =93That is what we
are here for =97 to provide information and see what answers we
can come up with. With the governor doing the foreword in the
book, maybe he can get some answers.=94


[UFO UpDates thanks Greg Boone for the lead]






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                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:45:16 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:52:19 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:14:55 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:20:29 -0400 (EDT)
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:07:14 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>><snip>

>>>It's clear, however, that Richardson and his office handled
>>>Davidson's questions skillfully, and I imagine that's the last
>>>we will hear about this. In any event, with the nation and the
>>>world in the shape they're in currently, Richardson's opinion
>>>about Roswell is not - and should not be made - a burning
>issue.

>><snip>

>>Thank God! Finally a UFO authority stands up and implicitely
>>recognizes that this whole abduction phenomena, possibly
>>involving a few thousand people over the years, is just a
>>figment of the imagination.

>>It's about time.

Don, Terry,

>From Terry:

>Where in the part of the post that you quoted, or in the article
>itself, did anyone imply that the abduction phenomena is "a
>figment of the imagination"? I saw no such implication neither
>above nor in the article. If I missed it please point it out.

>From Don:

>????

>You got me on this one. Where was that implied? And where did
>you come up with a paltry few thousand?

Jerome Clark's UFO Book - sorry, I can't afford the Encyclopedia
- on page 3, in his chapter Abduction Phenomenon, discusses the
work of Bullard, Jacobs and Wright. The author also mentions:

"The data are derived from Bullard's two studies - the 1987
percentages drawn from 103 high-information, high-reliability
cases taken from the literature, the 1995 percentages provided
by a survey of 13 abduction investigators based on their
experience with some 1700 cases."

Simple equation:

Number of Abduction/fraction of _reported_ cases = ?

Think for a moment this is data from 1995.

What would the figures be today?

Do the math. What numbers does one reach?

Don, my "this whole abduction phenomena, possibly involving a
few thousand people over the years..." is a correct assessment
that might even be on the conservative side.

So we have a few thousand people who have (maybe) been abducted
by a bunch of gray freaks who happen to literally apply the "up
yours" principle.

All very funny.

Let's take a deep breath, close our eyes and imagine for a
moment that it's not Grays doing it but your stereotypical Arab.

Even worse: imagine that those stereotypical sons of bitches
have placed 3000 of the abductees in 2 buildings and have
casually destroyed those buildings. I bet you all the money in
the world that we would have a war on our hands and that the
stereotypical Arab sons of a bitches would serve as pretext for
another war. Believe me, I _would_ bet my life on this one. (Of
course, Canada wouldn't get into it and the US would retaliate
by pissing of innocent Canadian tourists at the borders...)

My point of view is that we are still talking about thousands of
souls and, because they are standing on the wrong side of
political correctness, they are being ignored. This is not only
illogical, it is also not correct.

My point of view is that the UFO phenomena and the Abduction
phenomena cannot be dissociated.

So, Don and Terry, every time I see an authority - and Jerome
Clark _is_ an authority in ufology - try to smother, vilify,
play down, refuse or negate a slight possibility that some
elements of the UFO problem come into public view, I get this
feeling in my stomach, more so when the knee jerking reaction is
backed up by some "Aye, aye sir!".

If this is not clear to you, try to assess the semantics of
this:

>>>In any event, with the nation and the
>>>world in the shape they're in currently, Richardson's opinion
>>>about Roswell is not - and should not be made - a burning
>>>issue.

This is pure bull.

Read the fudging newspapers. As we speak, www.USAtoday.com
displays:

'Control must go to religious leaders Story - Kidnappers
threaten to kill journalist... Google stock... Oil prices
soar... Stocks fall... Mortgage rates dip again... United...
Terry Nichols... Nuclear weapons data from New Mexico missing...
Three copies of "controlled removable electronic media" found
missing... Kerry dispute... Attacks targeting Vietnam war record
could backfire for Bush... Zell Miller to keynote GOP
convention... Democratic senator to endorse... Sudan rebels...
Fighters from Darfu ... Sharon: Gaza pullback... Super Bowl or
bust for... Triple play vaults Astros to win... Houston scores
seven runs in seventh ... Cink grabs early lead... Cup captain's
pick birdies five... How many T- shirts were produced in the USA
last year? Click here'

Yeah! Click here.

Have you seen the gals in bikinis cheer leading at Beach
Volleyball at the Olympics.

Whatever. Sometimes I feel we _deserve_ the Grays - that's a
rotten joke.







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              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:48:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:26:38 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark


>From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:45:16 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:14:55 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:20:29 -0400 (EDT)
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:07:14 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell


Patient and gentlemen Listfolk:

>My point of view is that the UFO phenomena and the Abduction
>phenomena cannot be dissociated.

In our correspondent's opinion, anyway.

At any rate, I think he means "UFO phenomenon" and "abduction
phenomenon." If he must carry on so, at least he should get his
grammar straight.  The relationship - beyond of course the
superficial - between the UFO of, say, radar/visuals and the UFO
of abductions remains an open question to which there is as yet
no certain answer. I doubt that any serious observer, whatever
his or her instinctive sense of what the final resolution of the
issue may be, would regard this observation as especially
controversial - rather, more like a statement of the obvious, I
should think.

It is a simple fact that the evidence for the former (e.g., the
RB-47 case) - as demonstrable event in the world - is far more
compelling than the evidence for the latter, which is purely
testimonial and experiential. That doesn't mean, lest our
excitable correspondent misunderstand me, that the abduction
phenomenon, directly related to the UFO phenomenon or generated
by something else, is not anomalous or intriguing in its own
right.  Of course, my original post - the one that set off our
correspondent - had nothing to say about the just-stated. The
word "abduction" appears nowhere therein.

As the rest of you may recall, that post addressed a prominent
politician's public statement about the Roswell controversy. I
expressed admiration for his courage in boldly entering such
touchy territory, then went on to express the hope that it would
not hurt him politically, since he is, I think, a fine public
servant who may have a future on the national stage. That's all.
No reason for anybody to foam at the mouth.

>So, Don and Terry, every time I see an authority - and Jerome
>Clark _is_ an authority in ufology - try to smother, vilify,
>play down, refuse or negate a slight possibility that some
>elements of the UFO problem come into public view, I get this
>feeling in my stomach, more so when the knee jerking reaction is
>backed up by some "Aye, aye sir!".

"Smother, vilify, play down, refuse or negate...." Hmmm, again,
I suspect our correspondent refers to somebody else, not me.
Either that, or he has a whole lot of time on his hands in which
to amuse himself by conjuring up fantasy villains.


Jerry Clark







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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:56:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:28:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:36:31 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:16:08 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>It may be, Mr. King, that the phrase "in my opinion" preceding
>the paragraph in question is warranted and appropriate... but I
>am astonished, still, at the debunking communities stealthy and
>unsuspected support for the Hills... and this is forgetting that
>one man's name calling is another man's unflinching assessment,
>there has to be some finger-pointing to facilitate same, and
>that I stand by my "penile comparison", yet.  It may be, Mr.
>King, that I drifted to the hyperbolic in an attempt to tell the
>truth and a half as I, otherwise, sense only half the truth
>being told.  I regret your discommode, Sir.  I'll watch the
>gauges a little more closely in the future. Thank you.

>That said, let me be clear that it is my opinion that the
>ineffable Mr. Rimmer will work a lot harder to discredit
>something than he ever would to credit it, making him, in my
>opinion, one hell of a lot worse than me.  I look forward, Sir,
>to your eventual balanced criticisms of him.

Mr. Lehmberg,

Ahhh...it was just your opinion. I understand now. Thank you.
I was incorrectly applying journalistic weight to your comments.
My mistake.

Kyle







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                Re: lose Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:43:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:45:23 -0400
Subject: Re: lose Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:14:33 +0000
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:16:08 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>Please forgive this intrusion by a relative newcomer to the
>>List.

>>I think the Hill case is very fascinating, particularly as it
>>includes that unusual ingredient... the starmap. While your
>>effort to help promote this new product is admirable, your
>>comments in response to questions about your statements seem
>>based on a few unsubstantiated opinions.

>>I have read articles pro and con about the Hill case, as it
>>captured my imagination and intellect after seeing the old movie
>>with James Earl Jones. I cannot remember reading an article
>>which outlines the case as you describe.

>If all you know about the Hill case is based on "reading
>articles" and seeing the James Earl Jones movie, then I suggest
>you go back to primary sources: The Interrupted Journey by
>John Fuller and Walter N. Webb's original investigation, when I
>referred the case to him after hearing from Betty Hill while at
>NICAP. Do some homework.

<snip>

>In fact, most skeptibunkers never fail to imply or insinuate
>such things in their smug certainty that they know the truth,
>without ever being bothered by having to investigate anything.
>In fact, among the current listers I may be the only one (or at
>least one of the few) who actually met and knew Barney and
>Betty.

>>Please clear this up for me. I respect the work all of you do,
>>but I think when you make a statement that is of an accusatory
>>nature, you as a reporter should be able to support it.

>>Instead, your reaction is one of hyperbole, ridicule, and the
>>common tendency to lump anyone who questions you into a group so
>>you can deride their arguments out of hand. While this may seem
>>convenient to you, to newbies like me it just looks like you're
>>the same as those that dismiss such stories out of hand, and
>>dismiss your 'reporting' as the ravings of a (insert label
>>here). Neither the former nor the latter reaction impresses me.

><snip>

>I partially agree with what you say, but fundamentally the
>burden of investigation should be on you; it is your job to
>weigh and balance the assertions that people make so as to judge
>their credibility. But "we" (which I won't bother to define) and
>"they" (skeptibunkers) are so far apart that civil discussion
>often is impossible.

>>Perhaps when all the labeling and ridicule are exhausted, we can
>>find a good reason to remain engaged in this debate. Name-
>>calling, finger- pointing and penile comparisons seem counter-
>>productive to me.

>What I often see from my long tenure and historical perspective
>is half-informed, highly opinionated people, their minds already
>made up about a given case, often because they already 'know'
>that UFOs are nonsense, spewing out a lot of garbage. That seems
>to be the nature of current so-called "Ufology". Anything but
>calm, rational, scientifically oriented discussion.


Dick,

I read the Fuller book when I was in college. I was unaware of
your contributions to it however. Bravo! It is a chilling story.

Per your instructions, I shall weigh and balance the assertions
that Mr. Lehmberg made, and judge his credibility.

His assertion is that someone uses racial implications to refute
the Hills' story. The Fuller book does not. He has chosen not to
cite a reference to support his assertion. I therefore judge his
assertion as unsupported, and his credibility on this point
somewhat lacking.

I have no burden to investigate. I'm just a guy who wants to
know more. If I wanted to investigate, I wouldn't waste time
asking questions here... I'd be out there investigating. If that
means I am unqualified to ask a question, then the purpose of
this forum is not what it purported to be when I read about it.

Your comment indicates that my search for answers is better
undertaken elsewhere. In that I am in absolute agreement with
you... at least as far as this thread is concerned. :)

In my short time here I have received several friendly private
e-mails from individuals on this List. I do not know which
"camp" they are from, and I do not ask. Some would clearly be
considered pro-UFO advocates, and some skeptics. None of them
were cryptic or evasive in answering my questions. In fact, all
have welcomed my comments even when disagreeing with them.

The only party using the name-calling and finger-pointing in
this thread is Mr. Lehmberg. That weighs heavily. That he
chooses not to produce a sample of the "mode of the SNKUD..."
weighs even more heavily.

Credibility is earned... not so in this case.

I appreciate your comments, and you are dead on in saying that
the hyperbole obscures the debate.

I don't have an opinion about the Hill case, except to say it is
a frightening episode for anyone to experience. I don't envy
them. I am too "half-informed" to be an authority on the case.
From what I have read in this post, the same could be said of
Mr. Lehmberg.

So, can anyone answer my question? I'd be happy to heap my half-
 informed opinion on the dolt that would make it a racial issue,
or ridicule the story out of hand. I am not one of them.

Sincere Regards,

Kyle







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   Aug > Aug 21

             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:17:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:47:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:56:43 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:36:31 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>It may be, Mr. King, that the phrase "in my opinion" preceding
>>the paragraph in question is warranted and appropriate... but I
>>am astonished, still, at the debunking communities stealthy and
>>unsuspected support for the Hills... and this is forgetting that
>>one man's name calling is another man's unflinching assessment,
>>there has to be some finger-pointing to facilitate same, and
>>that I stand by my "penile comparison", yet.  It may be, Mr.
>>King, that I drifted to the hyperbolic in an attempt to tell the
>>truth and a half as I, otherwise, sense only half the truth
>>being told.  I regret your discommode, Sir.  I'll watch the
>>gauges a little more closely in the future. Thank you.

>>That said, let me be clear that it is my opinion that the
>>ineffable Mr. Rimmer will work a lot harder to discredit
>>something than he ever would to credit it, making him, in my
>>opinion, one hell of a lot worse than me.  I look forward, Sir,
>>to your eventual balanced criticisms of him.

>Ahhh...it was just your opinion. I understand now. Thank you.
>I was incorrectly applying journalistic weight to your comments.
>My mistake.

Ahhh... Your 'understanding' is awry. The operative word was
"may," Mr. King.  I want to thank you for being more clear
regarding which side of the bull-horn you come down on. I
mistook your 'comments' as a plea for more collegiality in the
discussion. _My_ mistake.


alienview.nul
EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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                              Sisyphus Revisted

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:17:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:50:54 -0400
Subject: Sisyphus Revisted


Sisyphus Revisted... This Year So Far In Ufology Mysteries

The shadow of the Greek mythological figure Sisyphus looms once
again. Lots of new disclosures, yet the final word awaits.

Let's see, there's the Mexican UFO video final analyses.

The Russian Tunguska artifact analyses.

The new Noah's Ark search.

The Mars rovers and ESA orbiter analyses.

The new 'Roswell Witness'  and Gov. Richardson's info.

Quite a year for revelations and edge of our seat excitement.
Did I miss one or two?

Anyone wanna hazard a guess on how this will all turn out?


Best,

Greg







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               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:16:02 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:53:00 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:14:09 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:00:56 +0100
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>I still think a more traditional double exposure would have been
>a much less unwieldy way to do a hoax than a double role of
>film. That would, however, would have required that the first
>exposure be on a dark background with a model or drawing of an
>even darker object. Both methods would run the risks of the
>"UFO" looking transparent or showing no internal detail, since
>both methods would permit some areas within the object image to
>be exposed to light during the second exposure.

Wieldy or unwieldy a "traditional double exposure" probably
won't cut it here because of the photometry, as Brad Sparks has
kept insisting, ad nauseam.

This is exactly why Tim Printy's idea is worth thinking about.
And his internal mask method doesn't involve a "second exposure"
of course.

I suggested the dual-roll film spool idea to try and make
Printy's theory as wieldy as possible, and I think it could
work. In principle.

Unfortunately I think all the actual evidence is against it, as
I argue on the site:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/trindex.htm.


Martin Shough







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               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:28:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:54:15 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:38:35 +0100
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:38:04 EDT
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>Wait a minute, hooold da' bus!

>>When I started this thread it was to ask the question why with
>>all the governments, agencies etc. on Earth no one has come
>>up with irrefutable ET/Saucer proof.

>>My point was (before the 'Magonia Mafia' jumped in to add their
>>two cents), that somebody somewhere has to have a document
>>or pics or video or witnesses that could break this wide open.

>>Man, that's some 'super secret organization' that can shut
>>everybody up everywhere all the time!

>You make some very interesting points, questions I myself have
>asked before.

>Lets start with the obvious but presumably the least acceptable.
>The reason for the silence is because there's nothing to tell
>people anything about. Nothing's going on - it's all either
>natural phenomena or military aircraft.

Least acceptable to whom?

(The Magonia Mafia adding its two cents)

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:51:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:57:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:14:33 +0000
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:16:08 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>Please forgive this intrusion by a relative newcomer to the
>>List.

>>I think the Hill case is very fascinating, particularly as it
>>includes that unusual ingredient... the starmap. While your
>>effort to help promote this new product is admirable, your
>>comments in response to questions about your statements seem
>>based on a few unsubstantiated opinions.

>>I have read articles pro and con about the Hill case, as it
>>captured my imagination and intellect after seeing the old movie
>>with James Earl Jones. I cannot remember reading an article
>>which outlines the case as you describe.

>Kyle,

>If all you know about the Hill case is based on "reading
>articles" and seeing the James Earl Jones movie, then I suggest
>you go back to primary sources: The Interrupted Journey by
>John Fuller and Walter N. Webb's original investigation, when I
>referred the case to him after hearing from Betty Hill while at
>NICAP. Do some homework.

What a sneering 'de haut en bas' comment from the Grand Old Man
of American ufology. Just because someone, who seems to be
genuinely interested in topic, does not have access to a
comprehesive library of ufology, and has read magazine articles
on the topic - some of which, for all you know, may have been
written by Messrs. Hall, Clark, and other ufological doyens,
does not merit the dismissal "Do some homework"!

><snip>

>>I am also ignorant of the origin of the term pelicanist. But
>>since I abhor labels as they are generally used to dismiss
>>discourse, and end arguments without resolution, I would be most
>>interested in your references for making the statements you
>>made. Otherwise, I feel that I must dismiss the remainder of
>>your post as a thinly veiled indictment of some nebulous group
>>with which you seem to be very angry.

This is precisely the intention of the term 'Pelicanist' (The
origins of the term are complex, but basically it means a
sceptic - but not in a good way!) It's like a 'get out of jail'
card. You slam it down in a discussion and indicates that any
subsequent debate cannot be taken seriously.

>>In particular, you note that these (insert label here) always
>>note that the Hills are an interracial couple. Is it your
>>implication that this reveals a racist component to their
>>stance? If so, I find it odd that in every single article... pro
>>AND con... I can find on the case, the fact of their
>>interraciality is noted strongly. In fact, it is often used to
>>support their story, since such a couple would presumably be
>>reluctant to report such an event, as they would expect to be
>>looked upon with some skepticism given the times in question. In
>>other words, their story must be true since they wouldn't call
>>such attention upon themselves if it was not. Call it what you'd
>>like, but I call that racism, too. Just not the negative
>>kind...on the surface anyway.

>In fact, most skeptibunkers never fail to imply or insinuate
>such things in their smug certainty that they know the truth,
>without ever being bothered by having to investigate anything.
>In fact, among the current listers I may be the only one (or at
>least one of the few) who actually met and knew Barney and
>Betty.

'Skeptibunkers' is another one of those words that means "I
can't be bothered arguing with this person, so I'll call them a
silly name and cut off all subsequent discussion". If you stay
on this list long enough you'll see who are the people most
likely to use this technique.

In fact from reading articles I have found that UFO sceptics,
when discussing the Hill case, have been at pains to point out
that the Hill's were an exceptionally intelligent and honest
couple, and have never made any suggestion that they created the
case in order to appear on prime-time television, or make money
out of it. It is only intemperate critics like Mr Lehmberg who
have put these words into people's mouths with, as we have seen,
no evidence whatsoever.

>>Please clear this up for me. I respect the work all of you do,
>>but I think when you make a statement that is of an accusatory
>>nature, you as a reporter should be able to support it.

>>Instead, your reaction is one of hyperbole, ridicule, and the
>>common tendency to lump anyone who questions you into a group so
>>you can deride their arguments out of hand. While this may seem
>>convenient to you, to newbies like me it just looks like you're
>>the same as those that dismiss such stories out of hand, and
>>dismiss your 'reporting' as the ravings of a (insert label
>>here). Neither the former nor the latter reaction impresses me.

><snip>

>I partially agree with what you say, but fundamentally the
>burden of investigation should be on you; it is your job to
>weigh and balance the assertions that people make so as to judge
>their credibility. But "we" (which I won't bother to define) and
>"they" (skeptibunkers) are so far apart that civil discussion
>often is impossible.

There you see a perfect example of the use of the term
'skeptibunkers'. Obviously here it means people whose views are
so alien to one's own that one find it impossible to treat them
civilly, therefore one doesn't have to engage with them at all.

>>Perhaps when all the labeling and ridicule are exhausted, we can
>>find a good reason to remain engaged in this debate. Name-
>>calling, finger- pointing and penile comparisons seem counter-
>>productive to me.

>What I often see from my long tenure and historical perspective
>is half-informed, highly opinionated people, their minds already
>made up about a given case, often because they already 'know'
>that UFOs are nonsense, spewing out a lot of garbage. That seems
>to be the nature of current so-called "Ufology". Anything but
>calm, rational, scientifically oriented discussion.

Oh how priceless: "my long tenure and historical perspective"!
You will of course have deduced that it is only 'skeptibunkers'
who have made up their mind about a given case, and spew out
nonsense. Eminent authorities like Mr Hall are never opinionated
and only ever indulge in calm, rational, scientifically oriented
discussion. Rather like Mr Hall's response to your original
query.

Welcome to the List. Stick around, it can only get better.


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 21

                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:21:36 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:45:05 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:48:00 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell


>>From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:45:16 -0400 (EDT)
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:14:55 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>Patient and gentlemen Listfolk:

>>My point of view is that the UFO phenomena and the Abduction
>>phenomena cannot be dissociated.

>In our correspondent's opinion, anyway.

>At any rate, I think he means "UFO phenomenon" and "abduction
>phenomenon." If he must carry on so, at least he should get his
>grammar straight.

<snip>

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=3DDictionary&va=3Dphenomena

'Main Entry: phe-nom-e-na Pronunciation: fi-na-m-n-a
Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -nas nonstandard :
PHENOMENON usage Phenomena has been in occasional use as a
singular for more than 400 years and its plural phenomenas for
more than 350. Our evidence shows that it is primarily a speech
form used by poets, critics, and professors, among others, but
one that sometimes turns up in edited prose <the Borgia were, in
modern terms, a media phenomena -- Economist>. It is
etymologically no more irregular than stamina, agenda, and
candelabra, but it has nowhere near the frequency of use that
they have, and while they are standard, phenomena is still
rather borderline.'

You can still get a grip on life with:

'Main Entry: pa=95tron=95ize  Function: transitive verb Inflected
Form(s): -ized; -iz=95ing (...) 2 : to adopt an air of
condescension toward : treat haughtily or coolly (...)'

I do not see much hope for communication. You say interesting
things that could lead to a very profitable exchange, but your
tone suffers from a tendency towards chest beating. Your way of
addressing me at the third person indicates your need for public
support against somebody you can't even look into the eye by
using a simple "you".

Since this has all the looks of a pissing contest, I'll pass. I
have zero time on my hands for this kind of exercise. I actually
feel I am loosing my time writing this post.

By the way, you may spin it the way you want, but abductions
only grow in ufology, not in Italian cuisine books. One cannot
dissociate them from the UFO Phenomena. They may well be the
reason why there will be no disclosure any soon. One can live
with the possibility of alien visitors in star ships. I doubt
the disclosure effort can survive the idea that the abductions
might be real.







   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 22

                           Memory and Manipulation

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:46:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:46:39 -0400
Subject: Memory and Manipulation



Source:  LA Weekly

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/39/features-abramsky.php

08-20 - 26-04


Memory and Manipulation

The trials of Elizabeth Loftus, defender of the wrongly accused

by Sasha Abramsky

On the wall of Professor Elizabeth Loftus' third-floor UC Irvine
office is a paper bull's-eye target, pockmarked with bullet
holes. If it looks somewhat incongruous in the mostly sedate
academic surroundings =97 bookshelves lined with psychology texts,
a large desk with a black Dell computer and stylish flat screen,
a mock Vanity Fair cover with Loftus' face staring out from atop
Demi Moore's body (a humorous gift from students), and
photocopies of Andy Warhol's Mick Jagger portraits =97 there's
good reason. Loftus =97 who, when she pulls her blue straw hat
over her mussed shoulder-length brown hair and stands up in
black-velvet pants and cotton blouse, looks startlingly like
Diane Keaton in Annie Hall =97 took up target practice in 1994
after receiving death threats following the publication of her
book The Myth of Repressed Memory. "We're going to kill the
bitch," was one choice missive. The holes in the paper, Loftus
says, laughing nervously as she recalls the events, were made on
the firing range.

Target practice aside, Loftus' work veers into an X-Files-type
reality where nothing is as it seems, where even the inner
sanctum of an individual's most personal memories is subject to
manipulations and falsification. We think of that sanctum as a
citadel invulnerable to outside pressures. Loftus tells us that,
to the contrary, it is a marshland crisscrossed with paths,
instantly imprinted by the footprints of all those who traverse
it.

Beth Loftus grew up in a house on Santa Monica Boulevard. And
while she has spent much of her adult life away from the place
of her birth, she has always been drawn back to the city where
things are not always what they seem, where humans =97 the
storytelling species =97 have perfected the art of illusion. The
allure is appropriate given that Loftus specializes in studying
the malleability of, the fallibility of, human memory and given
that she has spent a lifetime exploring the strange nether
regions of the mind where fact and fantasy, reality and
distortion, blend into new versions of "the truth."

Recently, three decades into her influential career as a
research psychologist and memory expert in legal cases, Loftus,
in her early 50s and recently divorced, returned to Southern
California after several years at the University of Washington
in Seattle. Now ensconced at UCI's department of psychology and
social behavior, as well as its criminology department, she
lives in a modest faculty house. A framed panoramic oil painting
of the early-20th-century wooden house overlooking Lake
Washington in which she lived until 2002 hangs on her hallway
wall, copied from a photograph by a man she believes to be
wrongfully imprisoned and whose cause she has championed.

Somewhat ironically, her return was a side effect of research
work investigating the veracity behind the allegations at the
heart of a high-profile Jane Doe child-abuse case. She
eventually co-authored an article about the case with University
of Michigan psychologist Mel Guyer =97 from which stemmed a
lawsuit against the authors, the university, the journal in
which the article appeared and the organization that publishes
the journal =97 but first Jane Doe filed an ethics complaint
against Loftus with the University of Washington. Though the
university eventually cleared Loftus of breaking research
protocols =97 after seizing all of her files on the case and
preventing her from publishing her work for almost two years =97
its support was so lukewarm, and its unwillingness to stand by
its controversial psychologist during the current lawsuit so
clear, that Loftus was only too happy to accept an offer from
Irvine.

For the past many months, Loftus, who herself has served as an
expert witness in over 250 cases since 1975, has been preparing
to go to trial. It is a battle for personal survival as much as
for her professional reputation =97 never mind that she was
recently elected to the prestigious National Academy of Sciences
as well as listed by the Review of General Psychology as one of
the 20th century's Top 100 psychologists. "I'm so proud of what
I've done," Loftus states defiantly. "I'll fight to the bitter
end." Over the last year, the lawsuit has been wending its way
toward the trial stage. If she loses, not only will academic
freedom have arguably suffered a grievous blow, but on a
personal level, Loftus herself could face bankruptcy.

In early 2003, Loftus gave a lecture in Hollywood, at the Center
for Inquiry West, a venue run by the Committee for the
Scientific Investigation of Claims for the Paranormal (CSICOP)
that specializes in casting skeptical eyes over discussions
about paranormal, and otherwise scientifically dubious, or
unprovable, happenings: UFO sightings, alien abductions, crop
circles, that sort of thing. "Preconceived ideas and the
accuracy of memory are factors that always seem to come into
play, at least with these anecdotal beliefs we investigate,"
explains Jim Underdown, the center's executive director, hinting
at the strange interplay of cultural beliefs and sensory input
that goes into molding complex memories. "The fact that memories
are so plastic and changeable, if a memory can be introduced,
then that becomes a serious issue and a serious aspect of an
investigation. Even if somebody is telling the truth, it may be
they're telling the truth about a false memory =97 about something
that didn't happen."

Loftus told her audience about a case she had recently
investigated, a famous Jane Doe case, in which a messy divorce
and child-custody battle had ended with the biological mother
being accused, by her 6-year-old daughter, of having sexually
abused her earlier in her life. Following the accusations,
custody was awarded to the girl's father and his new wife. Over
the years, the young girl lost all memory of the "abuse"; then,
nearly 11 years later, the doctor who had interviewed her after
the initial abuse claims re-interviewed her. At that point, the
17-year-old suddenly recalled detailed abuse episodes. Touted by
repressed-memory specialists as one of the most celebrated cases
in the literature, Jane Doe's story =97 which had been written
about, with her consent, by the specialist who conducted the
interviews =97 had long struck Loftus as resting on extremely
shaky foundations. Was it possible, she wondered, that the 6-
year-old child had been coached by her father and his wife to
issue the initial allegations; that she had quickly "forgotten"
the abuse because it hadn't in fact occurred; and that, years
later, she had "recalled" false events at the prompting of the
specialists who interviewed her?

Loftus and a colleague from the University of Michigan began
interviewing all the key players in the events =97 including the
biological mother and the stepmother, who Loftus came to believe
had helped the child to recall the abuse episodes. Eventually
they concluded that the abuse had never occurred, and that the
memories, which, over the years and decades, had come to
represent a defining event in Jane Doe's life, were, while
powerful, in fact entirely false.

In the summer of 2002, Loftus and her colleague published an
article on their findings in Skeptical Inquirer magazine, a
journal run by CSICOP. It was provocatively titled Who Abused
Jane Doe? The Hazards of the Single Case History. Now, in early
2003, she was speaking before an audience at the Center,
reiterating some of these oil-thrown-on-fire conclusions.

Not long afterward, in May of that year, Loftus and her
colleague (as well as her editor and friend) psychologist Carol
Tavris, the Center and the magazine were named as co-defendants
in a civil lawsuit =97 Taus v. Loftus =97 filed by Jane Doe at the
Solano County Superior Court in Northern California. Doe, by
then a lieutenant in the U.S. Navy, was suing them for
violations of her privacy =97 even though, until the lawsuit was
filed, her identity (Nicole Taus) had been kept entirely out of
the public domain. "Dr. Loftus and/or her co-author apparently
spent quite a bit of time talking to people, including my
client's biological mother," Taus' attorney, Julian Hubbard, of
the Redwood City law firm of McCloskey, Hubbard, Ebert and
Moore, explains. "Talking about her, and soliciting information
about her private life =97 obtaining her medical records and
obtaining information about her when she was growing up that has
nothing to do with what she [Loftus] was writing about." Hubbard
claims that Loftus went beyond the bounds of academic research,
by "befriending" Jane Doe's mother to the point where she would
provide a willing audience for poetry the mother had written, by
coaching her to believe she had not abused her daughter decades
earlier, and by attempting to forge a reconciliation between
mother and child.

Not surprisingly, Loftus' side sees things somewhat differently.
They argue that Doe's privacy was always protected until she,
herself, nullified it by going to court and seeking financial
damages against the defendants. The lawsuit, says Loftus'
attorney, Tom Burke, "revealed who she [Jane Doe] was, where she
went to high school, where she grew up. What's really
frustrating here is not only did she apparently consent to the
original publication of her case history when she was young, but
later on in life, when she was interviewed 10 years later by Dr.
[David] Corwin [the psychologist who popularized her story], she
consented again." Then, after Loftus' article was published,
Corwin received Jane Doe's consent one more time to use her case
history in arguing against Loftus' ideas on the dangers of
believing in recovered memories.

In other words, Loftus' team believes that Jane Doe, who did not
respond to requests (issued through her attorney) to comment for
this article, was fine with her story being used as long as
those using it uncritically accepted the reality of her
memories.

Yet increasingly memory experts such as Loftus have been proving
that not only is memory unreliable, it can also be so utterly
manipulated as to render it next-to-useless as pivotal evidence
in criminal cases. If Nicole Taus wins her lawsuit, says
attorney Burke, frustrated in an attempt several months back to
have the case summarily dismissed, "It would set a very
dangerous precedent. If you have someone who's simply trying to
contribute to an understanding of the data, if those views are
silenced, you can't do what needs to be done."

It's no secret that, in recent years, numerous men and women
have been released from prison after new DNA evidence cleared
them of crimes for which they were convicted entirely on the
basis of eyewitness testimony. In New York, Barry Scheck's
Innocence Project has created a cottage industry out of using
new technologies to expose such miscarriages of justice. But,
despite high-profile cases such as the release from Illinois'
death row of several prisoners after journalism students at
Northwestern University investigated their stories and proved
their innocence, we like to think of these cases as unfortunate
aberrations blemishing a system that, in the main, works to
protect the innocent. Loftus challenges this reassuring
assumption.

In an era where social panics =97 around sexual abuse, drug use
and, more recently, terrorism in particular =97 have led all too
many Americans to abandon the assumptions of innocence that
theoretically underlie our criminal-justice system, Beth Loftus
is a voice of caution. Like Henry Fonda in Twelve Angry Men, she
is a holdout against our willingness to equate an accusation
with guilt and our tendency to damn people on hearsay rather
than genuine, verifiable evidence. Fighting the memory wars, for
Loftus, has gone beyond the confines of the academy; it has
become a battle for the credibility of America's justice system.

In essence, Loftus says that our memories can lie, and that,
when coaxed in one direction by people we trust (family members,
therapists, police officers asking us to identify perps from a
series of mug shots), all too often we can "remember" events
that did not happen and see people at the scene of a crime who,
in fact, were not actually there. While these false memories can
be about almost anything, in the past couple of decades they
have had an impact on the criminal-justice scene, most notably
around the theme of "recovered" memories of instances of sexual
abuse alleged to have occurred years or decades previously.
Lacking any physical evidence, these cases hinge solely on the
word of the alleged victim, their legal viability reliant
entirely on the willingness of prosecutors, judge and jury to
accept the allegations at face value. Yet, so traumatizing are
these "memories," these images of shattered and violated
childhoods that swim up to the surface years later, often while
the "victim" is undergoing counseling with an unlicensed
therapist, that few are willing to challenge their validity, and
to further devastate already desperately depressed individuals =97
and, as a result, too often men and women have been prosecuted
solely on the basis of such "memories" or, if not prosecuted,
have had their reputations and family relationships destroyed.

What drives Loftus is not, as her detractors believe, a
perverted desire to keep sexual predators free to wreak havoc on
young innocents, but rather a passionate belief that, during
social hysterias, the presumption of innocence becomes subsumed
under a tidal wave of lock-'em-all-up-and-throw-away-the-key
rhetoric. And that, during such hysterias, finger-pointing by
those who really have been victimized is enough to convict the
innocent and guilty alike, while, at the same time, finger-
pointing by those who have never been victimized is also enough
to doom the accused. Suffused with a sense of history, Loftus is
haunted by the ghosts of the Salem witch trials from over three
centuries ago. Combine sloppy police work, the pressure to
identify, and convict, high-profile criminals at any cost, and
intense pressure put on suspects during interrogations to own up
to =97 to remember =97 committing certain acts, and, Loftus argues,
all the ingredients are present for grievous miscarriages of
justice.

"I was getting pretty upset about this," she says. "I'd see
people convicted I believed were innocent, and it would keep me
awake at night. There is a problem with faulty memory =97 it's the
major cause of wrongful convictions in this country. We're
living in a world where there's a temptation to believe every
accusation of abuse, no matter how dubious it may be, and sexual
abuse seems to have a privileged status, which makes it all the
more special. Obviously there's real child sex abuse, and there
are adults who were abused as children =97 as I was," Loftus says
softly and way too matter-of-factly. For a woman who has been
accused for years of defending pedophiles and other dangerous
predators, it's a pretty large bombshell to just drop into the
conversation. But, after hesitating a while, she begins to
explain. It turns out that Loftus herself recalls being sexually
molested by a family acquaintance when she was a young girl. "I
was maybe 6. I always remembered it. The first person I told was
my former husband, when I was in my 20s. It was definitely sort
of embarrassing. I remember him [the acquaintance] scratching my
arm and telling me certain things =97 like where babies came from.
The one worst thing I remember is when he pulled his pants down
and laid me on top of him =97 and I squirmed my way off of him."

The difference between the abuse she remembers suffering and the
"repressed memories" of so many other alleged victims, Loftus
argues, is that she never "repressed" her experience; it never
lay dormant and utterly outside of her consciousness from the
moment it allegedly occurred until, years later, it was coaxed
out into the open again by a therapist trying to find the source
of a patient's adult discomforts. Instead, throughout her
childhood, the memories kept resurfacing, sometimes in bizarre
ways. When she turned 13, for example, and her period didn't
arrive, somehow she decided that maybe her abuser's actions all
those years ago had put her into a state of permanent pregnancy.

"I'm pretty aware of the fact there are some creepy people out
there =97 from my own experience," Loftus explains. "But all the
people who get harmed by the uncritical acceptance of every
accusation =97 there's a whole bunch of people who get hurt,
including the real victims, who get trivialized. You can't be
raped for 10 years and not remember it. Yet, according to the
repression aficionados, anything's possible."

Just ask Pamela Freyd, of the Philadelphia-based False Memory
Syndrome Foundation. FMSF, on whose scientific and professional
advisory board Loftus sits, was founded in 1992 to provide
advice to those accused in repressed-memory cases. "We've been
contacted by 22,000 families," says Freyd, a retired teacher
whose own family was rent apart by an abuse allegation from her
33-year-old daughter in 1991. "There was a growing problem for
some families who had adult children who had suddenly and
inexplicably accused them of abuse =97 abuse they had had no
awareness of till, as adults, they entered therapy. These were
families with good relationships. Therapists used hypnosis,
sodium amenthol, guided imagery, dream interpretation,
relaxation exercises. These are very dangerous techniques to use
if undertaken in the expectation you can excavate historically
accurate memories."

Wisconsin attorney Bill Smoler, who represents several accused
families in repressed-memory cases, recalls one instance in
which a young woman entered therapy and "began a journey into
believing she was raped by her father, grandfather, uncle,
brother, two cousins and three members of the clergy =97 and had
repressed all of these memories." Ultimately, it emerged that
the woman had severe multiple-personality disorder, and, after
she died, Smoler sued her therapist on behalf of her parents for
malpractice, and also for damages, because of the hurt done to
the family. In 2000, a jury awarded the deceased woman's estate
and her family over $5 million.

Back in Southern California, a 79-year-old onetime marriage,
family and child counselor, who asked that her name not be used,
explained how, in the late 1980s, her then-41-year-old daughter
entered therapy and began recalling images that started with a
memory of her mother inserting scissors into her vagina and
gradually built up to a point at which she decided her parents
were Satanists who had killed and eaten babies in her presence.
Nobody was ever charged in the case, but the family in question
was, naturally, completely devastated.

Others were not so lucky. In her books on repressed-memory
cases, Loftus details the experiences of many individuals who
were charged with sexually abusing their children, solely on the
basis of recovered-memory testimony. Many of these men and women
spent months in jail awaiting trial; others ultimately were
sentenced to years in prison =97 all without a shred of physical
evidence ever being presented.

Over the years, Loftus' work has generated many followers. But
others have responded with the kind of venom rarely seen within
the confines of academia. Her friend Carol Tavris =97 who herself
tasted a little of the fury after she published a famous New
York Times Book Review article in 1993 titled "Beware the
Incest-Survivor Machine" =97 jokes that they have both been
caricatured as "evil pedophile psychologists from hell." Their
critics range from rival memory experts, such as Jane Doe's
champion, David Corwin, to an array of therapists, victims of
child abuse, and those who, for whatever reason, feel betrayed
by those around them and hold Loftus and Tavris personally
responsible for their ills. A quick Google search reveals
hostile Internet correspondence, angry radio-show transcripts
and high-octane commentary issuing against Loftus from around
the world. And then, of course, there are the aforementioned
death threats.

"Once I started being skeptical of those repressed-memory
accusers and the therapists who helped them get this way,"
Loftus says, her voice tinged with an emotion somewhere between
resignation and bewilderment, "the hate mail began flowing in."

Yet, in fact, Loftus' work goes well beyond the veracity of sex-
abuse claims. While she made a name for herself as a memory
expert defending those she believed to be wrongly accused, her
work increasingly highlights the rough edges of memory in a host
of different situations. Take a high-profile case in which the
guilt or innocence of a defendant revolves almost entirely
around eyewitness testimony or memories recalled by defendants
during police interrogation, and the chances are pretty good
that Beth Loftus' name will show up somewhere in the
proceedings. These cases include the celebrated McMartin and
Dale Akiki kiddie-abuse cases from the 1980s, in which
allegations of day-care providers systematically abusing their
young charges led to a national panic about youngsters being
ritualistically abused by those hired to care for them, and the
Holly Ramona case, which spawned a generation of repressed-
memory allegations. (Ramona was a student at UC Irvine who went
into therapy and "recovered" very vivid, but ultimately false,
memories of being repeatedly raped by her father while she was a
young girl. Eventually, in 1994, in a case written up by Moira
Johnston in her book Spectral Evidence, the father successfully
sued the therapist for malpractice for implanting the false
memories in his daughter's mind.) Loftus has even testified in
the Ted Bundy trial, as well as in the Hillside Strangler, O.J.
Simpson and Rodney King cases in L.A. =97 she argued that the
video of the police beating King didn't capture the entirety of
the event, yet likely shaped the firsthand memories of those
called to give testimony in the trial. More recently, Loftus has
served as a behind-the-scenes consultant in some of the church-
abuse sagas around the country, trying to work out which
allegations have merit and which are coattails claims.

Look carefully, and Loftus also appears as a consultant for the
defense in the federal trial of Texas Tech professor Thomas
Butler, a bioterrorism and bubonic-plague expert. He was accused
of illegally importing vials of plague from Africa, contacting
the FBI after several dozen vials went missing, and then, after
three days of interrogation, admitting that, while he had no
memory of the events, he might have accidentally destroyed the
vials himself. Loftus argued that even an absent-minded and
aging professor would remember if he had destroyed such an
integral part of his own work. In the end, the jurors agreed,
and acquitted the 62-year-old Butler on the most serious
charges.

In a simple conference room in one of UCI's 1960s-era tower
blocs, Loftus and her students, who are for some reason
overwhelmingly female, devise experiments to show just how
manipulable memories can be. While they don't seek to replicate
alien-abduction experiences or to insert images of sexual abuse
into the minds of those never abused =97 even if they were
unethical enough to want to attempt such experiments, they would
never in a million years receive permission from the university
to do so =97 they do seek to create an array of other memories of
events that never occurred.

In an extra-credit homework assignment, for example, Loftus'
students went home and said to younger siblings things as simple
as "Hey, do you remember the time you got lost in the mall when
you were 5 years old?" and then recorded the ways in which the
"memory" would take on a life of its own in the succeeding days,
becoming more vivid, more detailed, with each conversation. At a
more advanced level, using research subjects in a lab, students
successfully created memories of mildly traumatic childhood
experiences =97 such as being temporarily separated from one's
parents =97 that never actually occurred. One student even managed
to generate a series of false memories in her research subjects
about being licked on the ear by a Pluto character while
visiting Disneyland decades earlier. In another experiment, to
make sure they were dealing with false recollections rather than
real ones, research assistants created memories about meeting
Bugs Bunny at Disneyland, who, in reality, couldn't possibly
have been in the theme park. The purpose of these mind games is
to show that even the most vivid memory is not necessarily an
accurate representation of past reality.

Not long ago, the actor Alan Alda visited Loftus' lab while
researching a television documentary on memory. Before he
visited the lab, Loftus' team had Alda fill in a questionnaire
about his eating history since childhood. Over the course of the
morning he was in the lab, Loftus and her students then
implanted a false memory in Alda's head, subtly convincing him
that a computer analysis of his questionnaire had determined
that he had gotten sick from eating bad hard-boiled eggs when he
was a young boy. Later, when they took the actor out for a
picnic =97 a photograph of the event is tacked up on Loftus'
office cork board =97 they monitored his food choices and, sure
enough, he avoided the hard-boiled eggs they offered him.

Loftus' Irvine colleague Michael Rugg, an expert in the
physiology of memory, believes that physiologically the same
brain regions are activated when someone answers "yes" to
something that is true as when someone answers "yes" to
something that he believes to be true but that is actually
false. In other words, physiologically, the truth is less
important than an individual's perception of the truth.
Ultimately, perhaps, it is this blending of interior and
exterior realities that creates uniquely human forms of memory =97
that renders our minds forever different from those of the
binary strings at the center of computer hard drives, that makes
our vision of the world, our interaction with the world over
time, so different from that of machines designed to manifest
artificial intelligence.

Among the more bizarre examples of the tricks memory can play is
the rash of vivid alien-abduction stories that has intrigued
scientists and ufologists for several decades. While some
experts accept at face value stories of men and women being
removed from their beds in the middle of the night, taken aboard
spaceships, being experimented upon and even made to have sexual
intercourse with alien beings, most memory specialists have a
somewhat different explanation. Harvard experimental-
psychopathology professor Richard McNally, for example, has run
two studies on alien abductees. He found that most reported a
form of sleep paralysis known in the profession as hypnopompic
episodes =97 essentially a state, experienced by up to 30 percent
of the population at some point in their lives, when the body is
physically asleep, part of the mind is still dreaming, but
another part of the mind is conscious of being awake =97 and that
most, while certainly not psychotic, did have a strong tendency
toward beliefs outside of the mainstream. "They're not lying,"
McNally says of their experiences. "They're really sincere. They
are, however, characterized by a range of New Age beliefs, by
magical ideation =97 they tend to believe in past lives, crystals,
reincarnation, alternative medicines. Second, they're high on
absorption =97 they can become entranced by a sunset, absorbed in
a novel, they had imaginary playmates as children."

Like many of the people in the sexual-abuse cases, most of the
alien abductees McNally interviewed did not actually remember,
at the time of awakening from their hypnopompic episode, that
they had been abducted. What they did feel was intense
discomfort; many then sought the help of therapists or
counselors =97 under whose tutelage they began to "remember" that
they had been abducted and experimented upon while in this
strange state. In a different cultural context, the same
individuals would likely have recalled being visited by witches,
ghosts or Satan. "Under the suggestive questioning of
clinicians," McNally states, "these individuals' minds are
generating very powerful explanatory frameworks =97 under the
guise of memory =97 for their sleep paralysis. They're very
resistant to reinterpretation." Soon, such "memories" become an
integral part of the individual's self-identity =97 "I am an
alien-abductee survivor" =97 and, physiologically, the alien
abductees, when asked to relive their experiences, respond in
much the same way (sweaty palms, racing heartbeat, facial muscle
tensions) as do traumatized war veterans.

Those who cling to "recovered" memories of long-ago childhood
sexual abuse =97 many of whom, says Loftus, also have a tendency
to vibrant visual imagination, are somewhat suggestible in the
presence of more extroverted personalities (such as therapists)
and tend to have problems concentrating =97 are likewise invested
in the reality of their claims. In both instances, says McNally,
psychological problems lead to therapy, which leads to hypnotic
regression, which leads to "false memories that explain the
original problem." Maybe that's why Jane Doe reacted so
furiously when Loftus and a colleague challenged the veracity of
her story. It wasn't just that strangers were snooping around
her past; those same strangers were actually, in effect, telling
the world that the adult Jane Doe might not have as valid an
excuse for perceived adult neuroses and problems as she believed
she had.

Maybe that's also why many therapists have also reacted so
furiously to Loftus' work. One female therapist sat down next to
her on an airplane a few years back and, when in the course of
casual conversation she found out whom she was sitting next to,
got so angry that she hit Loftus over the head with a rolled-up
newspaper, saying over and over again, "You're that woman."

Loftus, says Tavris, "makes people question, even if they don't
know they're questioning, the explanation they've lived with for
so long. She's telling doctors they're killing women because
they're not washing their hands. The venom in the clinical world
to Beth is in direct relation to how defensive she makes them
feel. Beth is questioning some of the basic principles on which
people are earning their livelihoods. People don't like that."

Now, Loftus is getting ready to defend herself in court. Like
many of the cases in which she has testified over the decades,
Taus v. Loftus has the potential to once again remake the ground
rules in the memory wars. Win or lose, however, Loftus has
already succeeded in highlighting the legal system's
overreliance on uncorroborated eyewitness testimony. "I think
I've really helped people to understand the malleable nature of
memory," Loftus says. "When I help save one innocent person, I
feel really good about it."

Recently, Loftus tells me, she got a call from "Jane Doe's
mother. She said, 'I'm calling because I had a stroke. I'm
getting out of the hospital, and I just wanted to say to you
that I'll never forget what you did for me.'"


[UFO UpDates thanks Terry Colvin for the lead]






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 22

                   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:52:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:49:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind


List,

An interesting animated gif image is found here:

http://www.spaceweather.com/swpod2004/15aug04/locker1_big.gif

(watch wrap)

Although as an IFO the ISS is not on-topic, it's a good example
of how a known object may appear to be anomalous, particularly
if the viewer were unfamiliar with the ISS orbit, or it's
appearance through an 8" telescope.

I was especially intrigued by its apparent "triangular" shape.

And the solar disc makes a fine backdrop, too. :)

I actually get goosebumps over stuff like this... obviously
there is something amiss with me. But awesome images of grand-
scale objects - seen as if on a microscope stage! - are, as we
used to say in college, "Choice!".

Bravo to John Locker, the astronomer/photographer!


Warm Regards to all,

Kyle








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   Aug > Aug 22

             Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:30:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:07:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:53:13 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:07:28 -0500
>>Subject: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind


You'll have to forgive me Mr. Rimmer, but I had forgotten for a
moment the artful process of your dark mechanism for fallacious
debate, and upon discovery have been reminded, therefore, that
this is a terrific opportunity to call community attention to
your reflexive scurrilous-ness, yet _again_. And thanks for
the opportunity, Sir!

I have to admit that you had me going there for awhile; you had
actually convinced me that I was making an argument that I was
in fact, _not_ making. This is because I was innocently
accepting your literary slight of hand with regard to a ready
assumption of a definition of terms you _wanted_ employed.

It gets 'better'. Intellectual graft and philosophical
corruption usually does...

I'm writing (in my offending sentence) very generally and non-
specifically about common knowledge regarding 'apples' and you
divert _that_ to the specifics of one orange - an 'orange'...
an invented outrage, a red herring, an artful distraction,
like, _that_ was what I was talking about. Cute. You very
nearly had me convinced myself! Good show!

That charade is over, Sir. Verily.

I admit I was taken by surprise on a challenge to a sentence
that I would have predicted required _no_ citation. I'd thought
your concern was with the "Starmap" and was quick to point out
that your argument was not with me but with Fish and Friedman
(Fx2). I was so astonishingly unaware of what your concern was.
I mean you _had_ to be talking about the star map!

I missed it the first _two_ times. You mocking my civility was a
distraction, too.

All in all, an uncharacteristic lack of communicational clarity
on the part of one identified as a subject of the Queen, Sir, I
must say. I digress.

I imagine, Sir, that you had taken my 'pointed' and 'obvious'
'refusal' to address your actual concerns as the scent of blood
in the water, and begun to circle in, LOL! A few members of
the 'spawn' complete the school, or clutch. Pack hunters. You
didn't realize that I'm not in this fish bowl with _you_. You're
in here with _me_. LOL!

I _was_ unprepared for the usual pelicanist approach of seizing
on an invented or purposely misinterpreted 'scrap' with your
self-described "big beak" in an attempt to discredit that 'part'
in order to discredit the 'whole'. Like worrying at a shred of
gym-shorts protruding from a high school sports locker until you
can jerk it out for what we used to call a "locker rupture" back
in the 'day', destroying the shorts and the locker besides, they
_were_ perfectly good shorts; it _was_ a serviceable locker.

Damned if you didn't get a-hold of _my_ gym-shorts, Mr. Rimmer!
But, alas, in as much as what you had hold of was the label you
yourself had *affixed*, I'm delighted to inform you that,
lacking fidelity, it has come off abruptly, shall we say,
prematurely (?), in your sweaty little hand? My shorts are safe,
Sir, even as you _further_ soil your own. Nasty!

Cutting to the chase.....

I wrote, "A portrait of the Hills as composed by reactionary
skeptibunkies, noisy negativists, and knee-jerk ufological
denialists paints a picture of a dodgy working class
"interracial" couple (always pointed out), two people who very
likely made the entire story ~up~ out of whole cloth, solely for
purposes of some late-night time in the loony limelight,
presumably."

What I had written to be the "conventional wisdom", as regarded
by a 'mainstream' portrayal of the Hills, that 'you' front for,
Mr. Rimmer et al. You _do_ represent the 'mainstream', do you
not?

After the dust clears (and I realize that, one, I hadn't
understood you, and two, _you_ had affixed yourself like a tick
to another one of your little 'scraps' upon which 'you' are
loath to release "beak pressure", Lord, but how tedious and
tiresome your two-color existence must be...), You write,

-----

"...I must assume therefore, unless you are able to respond to
this third (3rd) enquiry, that no sceptics have made such a
silly statement, and you are just making it up, sir."

-----

Do you have it yet, Mr. Rimmer? Do you see how you've tripped
yourself on your presumption to define terms convenient to you?
Does your beak yet hang slack in disappointed astonishment?
Here, I'll help you.

Skeptics, Sir - true skeptics, are not the issue - are in
comparison persons to be revered above all others, and are
welcome company, honored team members, boon companions,
efficacious leaders - the most interesting of us, the most
knowledgeable of us, and the ones to instruct us the most! You
are not a skeptic.

Skeptics are not to be confused with scurrilous skepti-bunkies,
ponderous pelicanists, insipient CSICOPians, or other knee-jerk
ufological denialists, the _aggregate_ antagonists regarded in
my review, and the broad brush used to expose them (and you) in
every ethical way I can. Skeptics, Sir, are innocent.

Deny that the Hills are 'discounted (in the aggregate!) by your
lot, Mr. Rimmer, forgetting that I never reported that any of
your 'august' and 'intrepid' group, or even you _yourself_
were stupid enough to say any of that out 'straight', even if
you _are_ a little dumb in my opinion. <g>

But you foment it. You cultivate it. You nurture it. You sow it.
You organize it. You officiate it. You condone, assist, empower
and inspire it! Say you don't! My opinion of course, but one I'm
confident is shared by the 'big guns', to one degree or
another, and on whose shoulders I, proudly, stand. [g].

Heh - likely knock me off if they knew I was there. <LOL>

This is, of course, forgetting, for a moment, that examples of
what I'm talking about can be found here:

In the fifth paragraph of:

http://eserver.org/bs/51/harrison.html

Here, in seventh paragraph of [the] "Hill Syndrome":

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/discussn.htm

and here, in the Second letter to Dr. Carroll, almost what you
had duplicitously asked for, if _not_ spot on:

http://skepdic.com/comments/aliencom.html

and here, after a fashion in paragraph 3.8:

http://home.xnet.com/~blatura/skep_3.html

and read carefully, what is intimated (suggested, alluded to,
cameoed) yes, even here:

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/ms12.html

The point is the Hills are dismissed as credible witnesses by
the fence-sitting "otherwise distracted", Mr. Rimmer! And they
are dismissed, I suspect - it is my opinion <g> - by way of the
unctuous, pedantic, reasonable sounding, 'mainstream'
supported and _prolific_ distortions cum fabrications of
Klass and Sheaffer and Nickell and Krauss and
McGaha and Shermer and _you_ Sir, in my opinion. <g>

I report, as I had alluded in "CEIVK" that the corrosive polemic
your lot unabashedly employs is _neutralized_ when listening to
the actual recordings of the pivotal persons involved with the
Hill case.

And I think I may have put my finger squarely on the crux of the
entire matter! Wendy's really jerked a knot in the tail of
your "Paradigm Pelican'iste" with this one, hasn't she?!
There _is_ grist for the good old ufological mill in there, is
there not! Thank you Ms. Connors! You must really have them by
their short hairs. <LOL>

On the subject of Ms. Connors, I think it's a damn shame, Mr.
Rimmer, that you would kick mud on Wendy's sheets (and the boon
of her contribution to ufological _reality_), even obliquely
just because you have a problem with a sentence I innocently
assumed required no citation, or with me personally, if that
that is as base as it gets. That would have appeared to be
beneath you, I would have thought...

Now, with all respect, Sir, go peddle your pelicanist papers.

I resent the time you compelled me to spend on this. Once burned
twice shy, Mr. Rimmer. Next time your sneering, controlling, and
disingenuous explications will just be ignored out of hand!
Except to sneer at them, Sir. I'm working, presently, on a whole
series of reviews and no longer have time to indulge your
furtive and duplicitous little maneuverings. Besides, your
criticisms don't really matter that much in the aggregate, do
they.

My review stands as written, Mr. Rimmer. Thanks for helping to
put a better point on it.Wait till you see Wendy's _next_
one. Wow! That should put some _lead_ in your pencil! <LOL>

Oh, and please call off your tedious little attack 'imp', Andy
Roberts, who insists on befouling my mail box with his running
canted commentary on our ruminations, a craft-less insentient,
he's just poking a wasp's nest. And Thanks.

Read on...



alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 22

               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:14:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:09:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:17:53 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:56:43 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>Ahhh... Your 'understanding' is awry. The operative word was
>"may," Mr. King.  I want to thank you for being more clear
>regarding which side of the bull-horn you come down on. I
>mistook your 'comments' as a plea for more collegiality in the
>discussion. _My_ mistake.

Mr. Lehmberg,

Collegiality would be welcome. As soon as evidence of it
appears, I will happily acknowledge it. As it stands, I can only
infer from this exchange that you are much more interested in
assigning labels than informing.

If that places me on either side of some imaginary bullhorn, I
hope I'm on the side opposite the bull.

I'm not interested in insulting anyone. I only asked a question.
It has now devolved into a test of semantic wordplay. I have a
15 year old for that.

Good day to you. I fully agree on your points about Wendy's project.

I must acknowledge the assistance of Dick Hall in pointing me
down the path to enlightenment in this thread. I am in your
debt.


Sincere Regards,

Kyle







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 22

             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:26:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:12:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:51:43 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:14:33 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:16:08 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>Please forgive this intrusion by a relative newcomer to the
>>>List.

>>>I think the Hill case is very fascinating, particularly as it
>>>includes that unusual ingredient... the starmap. While your
>>>effort to help promote this new product is admirable, your
>>>comments in response to questions about your statements seem
>>>based on a few unsubstantiated opinions.

>>>I have read articles pro and con about the Hill case, as it
>>>captured my imagination and intellect after seeing the old movie
>>>with James Earl Jones. I cannot remember reading an article
>>>which outlines the case as you describe.

>>Kyle,

>>If all you know about the Hill case is based on "reading
>>articles" and seeing the James Earl Jones movie, then I suggest
>>you go back to primary sources: The Interrupted Journey by
>>John Fuller and Walter N. Webb's original investigation, when I
>>referred the case to him after hearing from Betty Hill while at
>>NICAP. Do some homework.

>What a sneering 'de haut en bas' comment from the Grand Old Man
>of American ufology.

<snip>

Not so "high or low" if I got your French right, Mr. Rimmer.
Balanced and thoughtful, is more like it - which should give the
reader pause - and this is forgetting that I find your "Grand
Old Man of American ufology" sneer especially repellant.

If I were Mr. Hall, perhaps rather predictably, I'd eat your
literary face for the affront. Fact is, he's the grand old man
of Ufology, period. [snap!]

Oh, you mention subsequently an allusion to Mr. King's
"interest." <LOL> That, decidedly, remains to be seen, Sir.
Possible sycophantic support of your 'position' does not an
uncomplicated "interest" make.


alienview.nul
EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Aug > Aug 22

                      Pravda: Tunguska UFO Op-Ed Piece

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:49:31 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:35:24 -0400
Subject: Pravda: Tunguska UFO Op-Ed Piece



Well I didn't know Pravda allowed op-ed pieces. Any of you
guys write an article for them?

Best,

Greg

-----

Source: Pravda

http://english.pravda.ru/mailbox/22/98/395/13721_UFO.html

08-11-04

Explorers Find UFO Fragments Response

George Person


Science fiction or science vision, what does the investigation
reveal about trace alien metals in the Russian Siberian
landscape?

Was the explosion really the destruction of an alien ship from a
super advanced alien civilization traveling thousands of light
years to  our world on a one way mission to reach our humanity?

Any alien group coming to our world from such great distances
would most likely have an indestructible life pod, able to
withstand impact upon ejection from their celestial cruiser, and
have the necessary technology in allowing themselves to
establish a concealed their base of operations and genetically
alter themselves, or use cloaking technology in allowing
themselves to move invisibly among us.

Perhaps a great celestial battle took place! And the ship was
shot down and crashed in Russia! Leaving the ship were
malevolent aliens out to corrupt and conquere our world.

After all, not long after the crash, world war one took place
along with the rise of Bolshevism and  the emergence of Hitler
and Stalin among the world scene. What an irony it would be if
evil aliens were the cause of our worlds problems! And we were
really puppets with our emotional strings being yanked around by
invisible forces playing the human race for fools.

President Reagan hinted very strongly as he adressed the United
Nations, that there were otherworldy threats...Just imagine what
President Reagan must have thought as he got the tour of Area
51...He was the Starwars President...He was  the great
communicator... perhaps it's up to us to read between the lines
and sift through the dirt in seeing what alien metals we may
find.


George Person

Phoenix
Arizona






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   Aug > Aug 22

                  Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:02:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:38:43 -0400
Subject: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter


Source: Albequerque Tribune, New Mexico

http://www.abqtrib.com/archives/news04/081804_news_ufo.shtml

August 18, 2004


Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter

By Sue Vorenberg
Tribune Reporter

Could Roswell be the tragic site of a 1947 alien fender-bender?

Maybe, says Gov. Bill Richardson. Maybe not, say New Mexico
scientists.

Still, most say they would relish the chance to investigate if
they got it.

"If they find little green men, I want to watch," said Eileen
Ryan, an astrobiologist at Magdalena Ridge Observatory outside
Socorro.

"The thought of an alien crash is a fantastic idea, and it does
capture people's imaginations. I seriously doubt the incident
was real, though."

Richardson has brought the controversial notion of a Roswell UFO
crash back into the mysterious orange-and lime-colored lights.

In a forward to a new book called "The Roswell Dig Diaries,"
Richardson said he would like to see all information about the
crash disclosed to the public.

"What the governor says is that if there is any additional
information, it should be declassified and released," said Billy
Sparks, a Richardson spokesman. "If there is not any more
information, then it should be stated that everything has been
released."

Ken Frazier, editor of the Skeptical Inquirer, finds the
governor's idea ironic and laughable.

"He was a government agent - he was the energy secretary,"
Frazier said. "If he thinks the government is covering something
up, why didn't he do something about it when he was in the
federal government?"

Some New Mexico scientists aren't so quick to judge. Why not
open an investigation? It might get more people interested in
science, said Spencer Lucas, a curator at the New Mexico Museum
of Natural History & Science.

"Obviously, a lot of people are interested in it," Lucas said.
"People saw something. Like all good Americans I have an
inherent distrust of the government. I don't really think
they're covering something up, but I'm a scientist - I think all
science should be open to investigation and debate."

And if a new investigation actually turned up something alien?

"That would be great for Roswell," Lucas said with a laugh.
"Hopefully we'd also get some alien fossils we could put on
display in the museum."

Even better would be if an investigation led to some of the
alien's friends coming for a visit. Bill Elwell, a spokesman for
the FBI, said he'd love to interrogate an alien.

"I think it would be interesting to see what an alien had to say
and get their outlook on our world," Elwell said. "We could even
try a polygraph test - but I'm not sure it would work on an
alien."

The book investigates a dig near Roswell two years ago by the
University of New Mexico. For all the hype, nothing significant
was found, said Richard Chapman, director of the UNM Office of
Contract Archaeology, which conducted the dig.

"We didn't find any big chunks of flying saucer," Chapman said.

"We could do more work there. We only covered a very small area.
If you wanted to do a definitive search, there's a lot more that
could be done."

Who knows? Maybe they'd find a hunk of alien spacecraft for the
scientists at Sandia National Laboratories' Airworthiness
Assurance Center to analyze. They might even be able to tell why
the thing crashed in the first place, Dick Perry, the center's
manager, said with a laugh.

"We would definitely be interested in obtaining any specimens,
because we don't know what the intergalactic effects of time
travel and deep space would be," Perry joked. "Really, though,
if any metal was found, the thing to do would be to check it
against common materials manufactured here in the past 70 years.
I doubt aliens would have anything similar."

The cost of a detailed search of the area could easily reach
several million dollars, Chapman added.

Richardson didn't say he wanted the state to pay for a new
scientific investigation. He just said he wanted any data
released from the federal government, Sparks said.

"I know the UFO stuff in that part of the state is a wonderful
attraction for tourists," said Laura Crossey, a UNM geology
professor.

"I don't know that it's appropriate to spend our money on
investigating something like that when there are so many other
worthwhile projects.

I don't know that it's a tourist stunt, but I don't think
something like that should be a high priority."

Besides, Penny Boston, a Mars expert at New Mexico Tech, says
she's sure aliens haven't been here before. They would have come
back and looked her up, she said.

"I wish it were true, but I absolutely don't believe it," Boston
said. "If there are aliens bopping around our solar system,
though, please, please come see me. I'd love to have an alien.
Marvin the Martian is my man."







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   Aug > Aug 22

                     Editorial On Recent Roswell Events

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:07:40 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:42:01 -0400
Subject: Editorial On Recent Roswell Events


Nice editorial on the recent Roswell events.


Best,

Greg

-----

Source: Albequerque Tribune, New Mexico

http://www.abqtrib.com/archives/opinions04/081804_opinions_edwed.shtml

08-1-04


Editorial: Bouquets & Brickbats

Bouquet: Aliens

An alien spacecraft crashes near Roswell in 1947; the
extraterrestrials' bodies and ship are spirited to remote Area
51 and hidden; the feds toil feverishly to this day to make
technological hay from the remains; aliens dwell darkly among
us. It's a great story, New Mexico is in the middle of it - and,
thanks to Gov. Bill Richardson, it's in the news again.

The guv has courted notoriety by calling for the feds to re-
investigate the Roswell incident. He does so in the foreword to
"The Roswell Dig Diaries," a new sci-fi book. This is a good
thing, with an important caveat.

The story drives UFO skeptics to distraction, and the feds have
re-scrutinized it before and found it lacking - once at the
request of the late Rep. Steve Schiff.

But the story is plausible around the edges: Something did crash
near Roswell; many scientists expect to find life elsewhere in
the universe; government in the Land of the Trinity Site long
has struggled to keep huge secrets from the public; New Mexico,
despite its world-class scientific establishments, exudes a
spirit of weirdness apt to UFOs; and existence is mysterious.

The world-renowned tale swells New Mexico's enchantment and,
along with it, the state's appeal to tourists and their bulging
wallets. So Richardson, in this case, is keeping his promise to
encourage economic development. He also, correctly, is calling
for full disclosure of everything the government knows. The feds
claim they've released all records - but secrecy is the enemy of
democracy, and one can't demand such openness too often.

The best outcome now may be for the feds to open their books
with the utmost generosity - and the least public fanfare. We
wouldn't want to cook the goose that laid the golden egg, would
we? Not that we doubt the story. Klaatu barada nikto, y'all.







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   Aug > Aug 22

                       Another Roswell Editorial Piece

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:15:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:44:17 -0400
Subject: Another Roswell Editorial Piece


Source: Albequerque Tribune, New Mexico

http://www.abqtrib.com/archives/opinions04/081904_opinions_roswell.shtml

August 19, 2004

An alien concept

Why do we wonder whether extraterrestrials exist? Why do we
care? We can't help it. Our brains are hard-wired that way.

Commentary

By Marcel Harmon


"It's life, Captain, but not life as we know it."

This observation of Mr. Spock's slowly rose from the depths of
my subconscious as I stared at the sight before me. In the hands
of my 2-year-old son was the torso of an olive green alien
mounted on the end of a pencil. As he gleefully twirled the
pencil in his hands, the alien's abnormally long arms whirled
about.

My family and I are in the gift shop of the International UFO
Museum and Research Center in Roswell during the town's annual
UFO Festival. Though Carlsbad Caverns was our final destination,
curiosity compelled us to stop on our way through.

We wander through a variety of exhibits - the renowned Roswell
UFO Incident, archaeological excavations of UFO "crash sites,"
and many more - all under the watchful "eye" of a saucer-shaped
UFO suspended from the ceiling with flashing lights.

Modern society is fascinated by the potential for alien life.
"Little green men" permeate the modern world in literature,
television, movies, pseudo-science and science.

But why? Why do we care so much whether we're alone in this vast
universe?

This fascination has its roots in our species' deep evolutionary
past, most of which our ancestors spent roaming the landscape in
small bands of hunter-gatherers. According to anthropologist
Pascal Boyer, during this time our brains' mental systems became
specialized in performing the different tasks required to
survive and interact with others in social groups.

Such tasks would have included detecting the presence of animate
agents (predators or prey), detecting what others are looking
at, figuring out their goals, etc. In other words our brains
incorporate a high degree of "agency" in how we perceive and
process information.

Hearing the snapping of a branch, a Paleolithic hunter-gatherer
would have increased his chances for survival by assigning the
noise to the action of a potential predator and then taking the
appropriate precautions. Discovery - wondering whom or what lies
beyond our planet - is just an extension of finding out what
lies over the next ridge.

But on anther level, gods, ghosts and religions are byproducts
of how our brains are wired.

Religious and supernatural beliefs are a way to explain and
justify our intuitions about events and human behaviors whose
cause we can't directly observe or understand. Modern
astronomy's understanding of the cosmos (as well as science in
general) is only a relatively recent addition to human thought.

As astronomer E.C. Krupp has pointed out, the cosmos has been an
important part of humanity's past, helping our ancestors mark
the changing seasons and orient themselves on the landscape,
critical for their survival.

As a result of our brain's agency component, the cosmos became
associated with the supernatural as a way to explain the actions
of celestial bodies. Modern pseudo-scientific views of UFOs and
ETs are the latest "byproducts" of the way our brains are wired,
melding elements of science and the supernatural to explain the
cosmic unknown.

This coexistence of religion, science and pseudo-science in our
modern world may even represent a turning point in the evolution
of our species. Because scientific thought tends to run counter
to our natural intuitions, it's as foreign as religion is
familiar.

This in part explains why science is much more recent and has
less of a foothold than religion does. But perhaps sometime in
the distant future, evolution will rewire the human brain giving
science the advantage, leaving pseudo-science and religion as
sidebars of history.

Back in the gift shop, my son picks a toy space shuttle with
operable wheels instead of the alien pencil. Later, I smugly
tell my wife that our son represents an important link in the
evolutionary chain of our species, where science is gradually
gaining on religion and pseudo-science.

My wife slowly turns her head to me, rolls her eyes and says,
"Don't be such a dork. You know he has an obsession for anything
with wheels."

Well, yes, I can be a dork. But that doesn't mean we can't both
be right on this one.

Harmon is a licensed engineer and an anthropologist completing a
doctorate in archaeology at the University of New Mexico.







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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:04:59 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:49:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:51:43 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:14:33 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:16:08 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>Please forgive this intrusion by a relative newcomer to the
>>>List.

>>>I think the Hill case is very fascinating, particularly as it
>>>includes that unusual ingredient... the starmap. While your
>>>effort to help promote this new product is admirable, your
>>>comments in response to questions about your statements seem
>>>based on a few unsubstantiated opinions.

>>>I have read articles pro and con about the Hill case, as it
>>>captured my imagination and intellect after seeing the old movie
>>>with James Earl Jones. I cannot remember reading an article
>>>which outlines the case as you describe.

>>Kyle,

>>If all you know about the Hill case is based on "reading
>>articles" and seeing the James Earl Jones movie, then I suggest
>>you go back to primary sources: The Interrupted Journey by
>>John Fuller and Walter N. Webb's original investigation, when I
>>referred the case to him after hearing from Betty Hill while at
>>NICAP. Do some homework.

>What a sneering 'de haut en bas' comment from the Grand Old Man
>of American ufology. Just because someone, who seems to be
>genuinely interested in topic, does not have access to a
>comprehesive library of ufology, and has read magazine articles
>on the topic - some of which, for all you know, may have been
>written by Messrs. Hall, Clark, and other ufological doyens,
>does not merit the dismissal "Do some homework"!

John,

Shocked, were you? My goodness. Kyle doesn't appear to have been
all that bothered by my comments, which - by the way - were
rather clearly not directed personally at him, but were more in
the nature of some observations based on my experience.

In any case, this will serve as a response to both you and him
about skeptic (i.e., sceptic; certainly not septic) insinuations
and attitudes. (I accidentally deleted your comments about how
nobly the skeptics were behaving by not insinuating that the
Hills were opportunists or self-aggrandizers, but I'm not going
to start over now. Read on.)

Kyle, I suggest you read Phil Klass's two chapters on the Hill
case in his 1968 book, UFOs - Identified, wherein he makes
much out of rhe Hills' interracial marriage and cites Dr. Simon
as saying to him that racial tensions probably "played a more
important role..." than others believed. (p. 230, hardcover
edition). Then again (p. 241) devoting a paragraph to the
interracial marriage theme. Then (p. 248, re: insinuations about
motives) closes the chapter and discussion by saying that up
until their UFO experience the Hills were a typical middle
class, largely ubnknown couple. "Today, they are world-famous
celebrities." (Nudge, nudge! Wink, wink!)

Then try Klass's 1974 book, UFOs Explained, (which cries out for
a subtitle: Differently This Time; for example, Klass was still
pushing his plasma theory in the first book, before it was
demolished by Jim McDonald and even suggests that is what the
Hills saw!) In a shorter discussion of the Hill case (pp. 296-
 301, paperback edition) he says: "Barney, a black, was divorced
from his first (black) wife and now had an interracial
marriage."

This time Klass even manages to combine the racial reference in
the same paragraph with a statement that Barney had sought
psychiatric help "for personal problems" without supplying the
essential context that he did so because of the deeply troubling
dreams and other sequelae resulting directly from the UFO
encounter. But that's par for the course for Klass, who always
has been a major distorter of facts.

I have no problem with Kyle or anyone asking questions, but I
certainly don't have the time to do all their homework for them.
And I see nothing unreasonable in the slightest of suggesting
that if people are curious about a specific case, to read up on
it in primary sources. Walter Webb's account appears in The UFO
Evidence - Volume II, that turkey of turkeys which sold all of
50 copies in the past year. If some of you would ask your local
libraries to order it, you would have a major source of
historical information at your fingertips.


 - Dick







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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:16:23 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:52:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Connors


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:56:43 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:36:31 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:16:08 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind


<snip>

Kyle,

I am not aware of any racial inpropriety dealing with the Betty
and Barney Hill case. There were a few scientific types that
rejected the Hill's claim, however.

Just a suggestion here. A huge amount of audio documentation
regarding the Hill case is available on my newest audio
compilation, which might be worth something to your research and
understanding of the case. Sometimes it's better to get
information directly from the "horse's mouth" so to speak than
from sources years later. You can find information regarding the
audio history of the Hill's case and others at:

www.fadeddiscs.com

Welcome, by the way, to the List.


Wendy Connors







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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:43:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:55:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:51:43 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:14:33 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:16:08 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>What I often see from my long tenure and historical perspective
>>is half-informed, highly opinionated people, their minds already
>>made up about a given case, often because they already 'know'
>>that UFOs are nonsense, spewing out a lot of garbage. That seems
>>to be the nature of current so-called "Ufology". Anything but
>>calm, rational, scientifically oriented discussion.

>Oh how priceless: "my long tenure and historical perspective"!
>You will of course have deduced that it is only 'skeptibunkers'
>who have made up their mind about a given case, and spew out
>nonsense. Eminent authorities like Mr Hall are never opinionated
>and only ever indulge in calm, rational, scientifically oriented
>discussion. Rather like Mr Hall's response to your original
>query.

>Welcome to the List. Stick around, it can only get better.

Mr. Rimmer,

It is an interesting tactic... toss out a provocative,
unsupported allegation, and then when someone questions the
allegation, label them as a (insert label here), or worse,
indict the question by suggesting that the asker is unqualified
to ask.

While lots of keystrokes are expended, little or no information
is exchanged... except that Mr. Lehmberg believes he has found a
"truth" about me.

The funny thing is that I never questioned the validity of his
assertion, but only asked for evidence to support it by pointing
out the lack thereof. The reaction has been surprising to say
the least.

Luckily, Mr. Hall provided an excellent test, which I applied.

Hmmm, perhaps I have learned something after all.

At any rate, the archives of this forum are available. I
challenge anyone to review my posts and claim that I fit into a
label. I see as much BS on one side as the other. Dick Hall
provided a dose of reason with his test, and he deserves credit
for the clarity with which I now perceive Mr. Lehmberg and his
assertions.

As for the Hill case, I remain utterly fascinated by it and look
forward to hearing the sessions on Wendy's CD. After all, her
work was the point of the initial post on this thread...wasn't
it?


All the best,

Kyle

PS to Mr. Lehmberg... I honestly do not understand your
hostility, and I hope that you are one day able to speak to
people as individuals, and not their "side of the bullhorn", as
you perceive it. Believe it or not, perceptions are often
incorrect... one reason debate exists at all.







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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:20:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:58:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:43:56 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>I don't have an opinion about the Hill case, except to say it is
>a frightening episode for anyone to experience. I don't envy
>them. I am too "half-informed" to be an authority on the case.
>From what I have read in this post, the same could be said of
>Mr. Lehmberg.

>So, can anyone answer my question? I'd be happy to heap my half-
>informed opinion on the dolt that would make it a racial issue,
>or ridicule the story out of hand. I am not one of them.

The answer, so far as I know, is that there are no published
commentaries on the Betty and Barney Hill case which describe
them as "...two people who very likely made the entire story _up_
out of whole cloth, solely for purposes of some late-night time
in the looney limelight ...", or any similar description.

I have not been able to find any writings which suggest that the
Hills intended to deceive anyone with the accounts of their
experiences. Of course, what the sceptics are _really_ being
accused of is of putting forward the _wrong_ interpretation of
their story, which is to say that the most likely explanation is
a psychological one, as first proposed by Dr Benjamin Simon, the
psychiatrist who treated the Hills (as described in Fuller's
book).

The _right_  explanation, it seems, is that the Hills were
_really_ abducted by aliens. It is also OK to say that they were
_quite possibly_ abducted by aliens, or even that something
happened to them the nature of which _we do not understand_, or
something like that.

Also, it's considered bad form to ask for unequivocal and
undeniable evidence to support such stories before accepting them
as being literally true accounts of physical events. If you do
you will not only be called a "pelicanist", a "noisy negativist",
or a "skeptibunker", but possibly, even a "narcissist" (I'm not
kidding - search the Archive).


John Harney







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                        Re: Sisyphus Revisted - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 17:13:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:00:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Sisyphus Revisted - King


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:17:51 EDT
>Subject: Sisyphus Revisted

>Sisyphus Revisted... This Year So Far In Ufology Mysteries

>The shadow of the Greek mythological figure Sisyphus looms once
>again. Lots of new disclosures, yet the final word awaits.

Always eager to mock fearful angels, in I rush... :)

>Let's see, there's the Mexican UFO video final analyses.

This one will go down as another "best evidence" case which
serves to pose more questions than it provides answers. There
are answers to be found however. I hope the hard science can
point to the kind of "signatures" that allow UFO detection to be
less dependent on film and eyewitness testimony. Not that these
aren't good evidence, but the corroboration of instrumented
observation leaves little wiggle room for those that are
unimpressed with less.

>The Russian Tunguska artifact analyses.

Tunguska is a riddle. But this investigation is doomed from the
start. Since they state that their intent is to prove an
extraterrestrial intelligence was involved, it will not surprise
anyone if they find evidence to support it. On the other hand,
to many their results will necessarily be tainted by their
subjective approach.

Likewise, I think any research group who decided to prove that
the event was of a mundane nature would be perceived similarly,
but by a different demographic.

>The new Noah's Ark search.

Stories of the Great Flood abound in human history, er,
pre-history. Apparently worldwide floods used to happen more
often than they do now. :) If it can be determined that the site
truly contains remnants of a craft, and its dimensions fit the
biblical record, I'd be hard-pressed to doubt it. But faith does
not require facts, and facts do not prove the validity of faith.

>The Mars rovers and ESA orbiter analyses.

As the rovers are conspicuously bereft of "life-sensing"
equipment, they will serve only to confirm the presence of vast
seas in its history. This in itself will be excellent news to
the various researchers who have claimed so. The shame is that
with the unexpected robustness of the rovers, including said
equipment would (at least in hindsight) have provided an
excellent chance to confirm the existence of life directly.

The Mars Express has revealed much more. I suspect that we are
very close to an announcement of contemporary life on Mars. If
there is a watershed moment in the future of our history, this
would surely qualify.

>The new 'Roswell Witness'  and Gov. Richardson's info.

Roswell shall remain a "best evidence" case to be debated ad
infinitum, while Gov. Richardson's efforts will result in more
official denial. Of course, the official denials will simply
fuel all sides of the debate.

>Quite a year for revelations and edge of our seat excitement.
>Did I miss one or two?

My seat edge is getting more wear in anticipation of a "Life on
Mars" announcement than from any other story.

>Anyone wanna hazard a guess on how this will all turn out?

If life does exist on Mars now - such an inhospitable place - it
would tend to support the idea that it is extant life... what is
left. This leads to the real revelation. Life is ancient on
Mars, and the future of the Earth may very well be revealed in
Mars' past...and present Planet of the Apes meets Richard
Hoagland...that'll keep me brewing "French Market Coffee and
Chicory" through the night. :)


My ha'pennies worth,

Kyle







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              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 00:21:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:13:10 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - King


>From: Michael Bilodeau <micbilodeau.nul-bec.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:21:36 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:48:00 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>By the way, you may spin it the way you want, but abductions
>only grow in ufology, not in Italian cuisine books. One cannot
>dissociate them from the UFO Phenomena. They may well be the
>reason why there will be no disclosure any soon. One can live
>with the possibility of alien visitors in star ships. I doubt
>the disclosure effort can survive the idea that the abductions
>might be real.


Michael,

The only model that allows for UFOs, which does not involve
abductions, would be the disclosure that UFOs are the product of
secret tech. Unless one accepts that the government abducts
them.

If photographic evidence of an abduction, i.e., film from a
neighbor of a craft and it's occupants in the act of abducting
someone, it would almost inevitably unite the factions involved.

I'm curious whether any existing abductee has responded to their
experience by installing cameras to record any subsequent
nocturnal visitations.

Perhaps there is a correlation between the paradox of how few
UFOs are filmed in this era of ever increasing number of cameras,
and the limited photographic evidence in the abduction record.
If I am mistaken in this, I would be very interested to hear of
abduction film or video evidence.

I find both phenomena equally vexing, and the respective debaters
seem to find the same hidey holes in which to hurl invective
at one another. Birds of a feather?? :)

To think that they are mutually exclusive phenomena would be
limited thinking in light of the leaps required by either alone.

By leaps of course, I mean the leaps in paradigm shift such a
revelation...proven beyond doubt...would bring.

Unfortunately, that doesn't mean they have to get along. :)


Kyle






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   Aug > Aug 22

                        The Mothman Prophecies On TNT

From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:23:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:15:20 -0400
Subject: The Mothman Prophecies On TNT


Just for the record...

The television broadcast network TNT had their premiere
screening of The Mothman Prophecies (Sony/Screen Gems, 2002) on
Friday, August 20, 2004, at 8pm ET.

This is the first appearance of this motion picture on a widely
received television network, outside the commercial-free realm
of HBO, Cinemax, and similar cable outlets.

In the wake of this national broadcast, I have noticed a
resulting renewed 2004 interest in all things Mothman.

It perhaps is just one of those coincidences of the unexplained
that the first reports of what would become known as "Mothman"
occurred in the TNT area near Point Pleasant, West Virginia.


Enjoy,

Loren







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             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:39:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:18:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:52:32 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>An interesting animated gif image is found here:

>http://www.spaceweather.com/swpod2004/15aug04/locker1_big.gif

>(watch wrap)

>Although as an IFO the ISS is not on-topic, it's a good example
>of how a known object may appear to be anomalous, particularly
>if the viewer were unfamiliar with the ISS orbit, or it's
>appearance through an 8" telescope.

>I was especially intrigued by its apparent "triangular" shape.

>And the solar disc makes a fine backdrop, too. :)

>I actually get goosebumps over stuff like this... obviously
>there is something amiss with me. But awesome images of grand-
>scale objects - seen as if on a microscope stage! - are, as we
>used to say in college, "Choice!".

>Bravo to John Locker, the astronomer/photographer!

LOL!

In other words, "...sleep, sleep, good people... all of your
'anomalies' are mere prosaics and there is nothing new under the
sun. All questions are answered, all obligations met, and there
is wonder _enough_ in the mechanisms of man that they can be
taken for UFOs and monsters, little green men, and 'things that
bump' on a dark, dark night... <heavy sigh> ...made, of course,
from the furtive, uneducated, and irrational minds of the
mislead, the misleading, or the moronic and mentally ill. Klass
trumps Hall in the name of the scientistic (sic) father, the
sycophantic CSICOPian son, and the wholly 'groped'. Amen."

.Just a little more friendly intemperance (if _not_ well
provoked intransigence) for your Sunday afternoon, Mr. King.
You're not fooling anyone, Sir. Believe me, you're wearing a
rotating flasher/strobe regarding your contentions. Something
_is_ amiss with you, Sir, in my opinion, and it raises
gooseflesh on _me_. In my opinion, of course, remember. <g>

Read on.


alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Aug > Aug 22

               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:47:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:22:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:43:40 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:51:43 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:14:33 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:16:08 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>What I often see from my long tenure and historical perspective
>>>is half-informed, highly opinionated people, their minds already
>>>made up about a given case, often because they already 'know'
>>>that UFOs are nonsense, spewing out a lot of garbage. That seems
>>>to be the nature of current so-called "Ufology". Anything but
>>>calm, rational, scientifically oriented discussion.

>>Oh how priceless: "my long tenure and historical perspective"!
>>You will of course have deduced that it is only 'skeptibunkers'
>>who have made up their mind about a given case, and spew out
>>nonsense. Eminent authorities like Mr Hall are never opinionated
>>and only ever indulge in calm, rational, scientifically oriented
>>discussion. Rather like Mr Hall's response to your original
>>query.

>>Welcome to the List. Stick around, it can only get better.

>Mr. Rimmer,

>It is an interesting tactic... toss out a provocative,
>unsupported allegation, and then when someone questions the
>allegation, label them as a (insert label here), or worse,
>indict the question by suggesting that the asker is unqualified
>to ask.

>While lots of keystrokes are expended, little or no information
>is exchanged... except that Mr. Lehmberg believes he has found a
>"truth" about me.

>The funny thing is that I never questioned the validity of his
>assertion, but only asked for evidence to support it by pointing
>out the lack thereof. The reaction has been surprising to say
>the least.

>Luckily, Mr. Hall provided an excellent test, which I applied.

>Hmmm, perhaps I have learned something after all.

>At any rate, the archives of this forum are available. I
>challenge anyone to review my posts and claim that I fit into a
>label. I see as much BS on one side as the other. Dick Hall
>provided a dose of reason with his test, and he deserves credit
>for the clarity with which I now perceive Mr. Lehmberg and his
>assertions.

>As for the Hill case, I remain utterly fascinated by it and look
>forward to hearing the sessions on Wendy's CD. After all, her
>work was the point of the initial post on this thread...wasn't
>it?

>All the best,

>Kyle

>PS to Mr. Lehmberg... I honestly do not understand your
>hostility, and I hope that you are one day able to speak to
>people as individuals, and not their "side of the bullhorn", as
>you perceive it. Believe it or not, perceptions are often
>incorrect... one reason debate exists at all.

P.P.S. by Richard Hall

I honestly don't understand John Rimmer's hostility either,
apparently bordering on seething anger. If he would refrain from
spitting venom over my remarks, I could (if I had the time and
inclination) give him numerous specific examples. But often with
him I lack the inclination. If he had read my writings (I can
never seem to get a clear answer out of him whether he has), he
would know that I am just as tough on gullible believers who
think everything the slightest bit odd-looking in the sky is an
alien spaceship. They spout a great deal of garbage too.  And
John still seems quite exercised about my original response to
you. Odd duck, I guess. (Notice I refrained from using
"pelican.")

What you are discovering on this List is that a lot of people
feel very strongly about these matters, and sometimes you can
touch a nerve quite innocently without meaning to be
provocative. One could write volumes about why people are angry
and alienated (and I have contributed my share) and sometimes
let their emotions run away with them. I appreciate your
civility.

 - Dick










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   Aug > Aug 22

               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:59:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:24:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:20:15 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:43:56 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind


Patient and gentle Listfolk:

>Also, it's considered bad form to ask for unequivocal and
>undeniable evidence to support such stories before accepting them
>as being literally true accounts of physical events. If you do
>you will not only be called a "pelicanist", a "noisy negativist",
>or a "skeptibunker", but possibly, even a "narcissist" (I'm not
>kidding - search the Archive).

Coming as it does from a self-described skeptic, the self-
pitying tone of the above is nothing novel - it is, as students
of the phenomenon are aware, a polemical staple - but it is
curious indeed that John Harney should whimper at being called a
"pelicanist". As a recent piece (a review of my book on pilot
sightings, Strange Skies) in his UFOphobic (though always, er,
interesting) magazine Magonia informs us, he is a pelicanist in
the most literal sense. He claims to take seriously the
demonstrably pseudoscientific pelican "explanation" for the
Arnold sighting (search the Archive) - the very one that led me
to coin the phrase.* I am happy to see, by the way, that
"pelicanist" and "pelicanism" seem destined to survive in the
ufological vocabulary. It proves that ufologists, if not their
critics, have a sense of humor.

What in the world is John yapping about when he barks about
"unequivocal and undeniable evidence"? If there were
"unequivocal and undeniable evidence" - which he cannot be
bothered to define (my guess is that he means something like, as
the old expression favored by Willy Ley has it, "wreckage,
machinery, or bodies") - there would be no UFO controversy,
would there?

There wouldn't even be UFOs, because there would be no more
unidentified flying objects. "Unequivocal and undeniable
evidence" would have solved the mystery, and we would be calling
what we now call UFOs by the name that characterizes their
actual nature and identity. In short, we could discard the
tentative phrase with which, absent "unequivocal and undeniable
evidence," we are forced to adorn them.

Harney's complaint is strange and sadly hollow. If Harney wants
"unequivocal and undeniable evidence," there are many areas of
inquiry for which such exists (and many others, such as ball-
lightning research, for which it doesn't). I would urge him to
abandon ufology - the strain of uncertainty is evidently too
much for his fragile nerves - and seek a more comforting
pursuit, free of vexing ambiguities, complications, and
intellectual challenges.


Jerry Clark

*A pelicanist is "one who proposes hard-to-believe solutions to
puzzling UFO sightings." - Strange Skies, p. 35.







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   Aug > Aug 22

             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:09:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:29:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:43:40 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:51:43 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:14:33 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:16:08 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>PS to Mr. Lehmberg... I honestly do not understand your
>hostility, and I hope that you are one day able to speak to
>people as individuals, and not their "side of the bullhorn", as
>you perceive it. Believe it or not, perceptions are often
>incorrect... one reason debate exists at all.

Very reasonable 'sounding', Mr. King. A seeming portrait of calm
civility and gracious rationality.

With regard to 'hostility' on my part, well... you're new.

Perhaps, presuming real genuineness on your part, you'll
understand better after you've been on the List for a few
years.

Oddly, persons similar to yourself come and go on the UpDates
List all the time, and flash in Errol's sturdy pan like wet
powder, but not because I harass them with my "name-calling,"
lack of collegiality, or my intemperate commentary.

Provoked, I react in a measured manner. I'm not shy. Anything
else is tacit agreement with dodgy ethics - in my opinion -
intellectual cowardice - in my opinion - and flatulent
philosophical flim-foolery - in my opinion - not to put too
fine a point on it.

We're not alone, dude... get over it. I accept that even if you
can't or won't. I won't celebrate a reflex intransigence, Sir,
just as you, presumably, would not celebrate mine.

See you in a couple of months... then maybe we can 'talk'.

alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.






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   Aug > Aug 22

             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:18:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:31:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:20:15 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:43:56 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>Also, it's considered bad form to ask for unequivocal and
>undeniable evidence to support such stories before accepting them
>as being literally true accounts of physical events. If you do
>you will not only be called a "pelicanist", a "noisy negativist",
>or a "skeptibunker", but possibly, even a "narcissist" (I'm not
>kidding - search the Archive).

Pity the poor maligned skeptibunky, that "thin blue line"
between order and chaos, the 'lettered' teacher, the 'inspired'
leader, and that holder of the 'balanced' guiding light. <LOL>

I sincerely suspect that you would not accept that 'evidence' if
it leapt up on your chest and licked you on the cheek.


alienview.nul


EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Aug > Aug 22

               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:43:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:36:07 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Miller


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:28:16 +0100
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:38:35 +0100
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:38:04 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

<snip>

>>Lets start with the obvious but presumably the least acceptable.
>>The reason for the silence is because there's nothing to tell
>>people anything about. Nothing's going on - it's all either
>>natural phenomena or military aircraft.

>Least acceptable to whom?

>(The Magonia Mafia adding its two cents)


Hello John,

You've got to ask yourself, is it worth it? You scatter-gun a
few remarks here and there in response to various posts, and
then what? You've now got to spend time checking out Alfred's
references to make sure he's not talking tripe, and a sure fire
dig at Dick Hall seems to have rather limply fallen by the
wayside. And your partner sees you drowning and rushes in, as
always, to retighten the truss or whatever.

Never mind. I'm sure my response will cause you no difficulty at
all.

That option John, is certainly unacceptable to me. I suspect it
is unacceptable to Greg, though I don't know for sure, and I
would imagine it's unacceptable to a great many others on this
List as well. Is it unacceptable to you?

To make you feel a bit more comfortable, I am happy to say that
in my mind, UFO does not necessarily equate to ET. Do you know
how hard it was for me to say that? It feels like I've stabbed
my entire philosophical credo in the back. Remember though, I'm
a believer, just back from Sunday worship at The Church of The
Later Day Reticulians (motto: I have Faith in my Belief). So I'm
certainly down in the "flakey" corner as far as you're
concerned.

Let's see now, what else do I believe?

Well, I believe it's very likely that intelligent
extraterrestrial life has frequently, over the aeons, paid us
various visits, etc., and a good deal of all the other cliched
stuff that those of a lesser intellectual bent involved in this
subject like to believe too.

John, you have no idea how much fun it is to be stupid.

Out of interest, do you believe in anything at all?


Stuart Miller







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   Aug > Aug 22

                           Roswell Roswell Roswell

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:45:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:23:17 -0400
Subject: Roswell Roswell Roswell


There They Go Again.....

Once again, Roswell grabs the imagination of politicians and the
media. And again ufologists will ride forward on a heady wave
challenging the authorities to stand and deliver.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the Roswell legend will prove absolute
and positively true.

However, a word of caution and plea for sanity.

The GAO investigation put pressure on many agencies to look for
records on Roswell, not UFOs.

As a byproduct of the GAO investigation, interesting UFO files
did indeed turn up:

The 4th Air Force UFO files 1947-1950 Air Force Public
Information Office Files Project SIGN/Project Grudge
Investigative Files 1948-1949

However, I understand that the a number of other interesting
files on UFOs were uncovered, by authorities in the Roswell
search, but since they had no relation to Roswell, they were not
released. Typical of government and especially the military, if
you give someone a mission, they do that mission single-mindedly
without thoughts of other considerations.

It is my personal considered opinion that further search for
early UFO records should not be solely focused on Roswell. I
submit the blasphemous notion that Roswell is not the be all and
end all of ufology. And even more, it may not be a UFO incident
at all. However, early UFO records seem to me to be keys to much
of what was going on before ideas solidified about the UFO
question.

A number of us continue to look into these early records.

Some years ago, the Project 1947 website contained comments on
the search for Roswell records and where additional research
might find information on Roswell.

http://project1947.com/roswell/rosearch.htm

My focus is not Roswell, although I have done further research
into official 1947 and early UFO era records.

What surprises me is that in the over three and half years since
these suggestions were posted I have not heard from anyone who
has checked on the suggested sources.

The only thing I have heard is phoney baloney claims: "I have a
tape recording from an Indian witness who supports Gerald
Anderson" or "My father has a citation from General Hap Arnold
for his work investigating the Roswell incident." Copies of both
of these were promised in the mail, the former not once but
twice, but never materialized.

Okay, now bring on the brickbats, but before you do, let me say
this, what you have done, is far more important than what you
think. Ideas and opinions are cheap, really research is
difficult and shows commitment.


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135







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   Aug > Aug 23

                  Re: Brunswick Photos & Angel Hair - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 00:04:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:01:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Brunswick Photos & Angel Hair - Hale


>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:21:28 -0700
>Subject: Brunswick photos & Angel Hair

<snip>

>The clearest and most interesting of these is the three-photo
>series on pg. 239. All the little dots and strands of stuff that
>Ray called diarrhea have identifiable shapes and spatial
>relationships. These can be followed and traced through the
>three photos. The craft can be seen to move through the angel
>hair-like strands and puffs, which seem to be floating slowly
>down.

>Maybe these effects could be faked, but I don't know how. That's
>why I wanted Ray to look at these photos. I think they show the
>existence of a structured craft of unknown origin and establish
>the association between angel hair and UFO.


Ed,

Stanford damns the Adamski photos, damns the Brunswick
photocollection - yet he appears to doggedly avoid peer review
of his own much vaunted personal UFO film evidence.

What's the point talking to him about these collections of
photos? He cannot represent his knowledge as superior to that of
other people's submitted collections of UFO images in the way he
his claiming.

Stanford claims he has authentic research material in his
possession to win his arguement over photographic authenticity.
Yet I learn he has chosen to withhold that same evidence from
his peers, this can legitimately be taken as BS.

Let Stanford give us the evidence to back his arguement up. I
want to see credible evidence of these remarkable films he seems
to base the majority of his arguements on. If he possess the
holy grail of ufology then show us.

For the full archive Stanford interview:

Interview transcript on 'Strange Days... Indeed' Program #234
Broadcast 9:00 p.m. March 29, 2003 NewsTalk 1010 CFRB - Toronto
& The Web @ www.cfrb.com


Roy







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                         Re: Roswell Roswell Roswell

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:40:39 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:03:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell Roswell Roswell


>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:45:21 -0400
>Subject: Roswell Roswell Roswell

<snip>

>It is my personal considered opinion that further search for
>early UFO records should not be solely focused on Roswell. I
>submit the blasphemous notion that Roswell is not the be all and
>end all of ufology. And even more, it may not be a UFO incident
>at all. However, early UFO records seem to me to be keys to much
>of what was going on before ideas solidified about the UFO
>question.

<snip>

I can agree alot here Jan.

I did look at 5 or more newspaper sources during the 1940's. I
recall emailing you some of the dates etc. You're right that
there was more than just Roswell going on prior to and after
that event.

Although I recall you disagreed with me on one point regarding
the government proposing the ETH during the '47 wave. I'd have
to go back to NY and dig up those xeroxes from the microfilm I
got from the library.

What also alarmed me were the wind patterns of those days of
atomic testing. I found a story where a farmer we knew found a
RAWIN on his farm in upstate NY. We looked at could a RAWIN or
any other weather balloon launched from New Mexico reach NY. we
looked at the published weather graphics and sure as heck they
showed the wind patterns often covered that path. To
corroborate, the science reporter I trained under told me that
there was a bone of contention because any fallout from testing
also followed that path and got into the dairy cattle and then
into us!

I spent months going through God knows how many newspaper
archives from the NY Times, Daily News, Poughkeepsie Journal
etc. and got quite new outlook on the history of UFOs in news.
Went to your website at project1947.com and got more of an
education.

While I was in the library I got the opportunity to look at
papers going back about 200 years. People were always reporting
weird things.

Me, I like spending months at a time digging in archives,
libraries old flea market book stores ( I actually found many a
UFO book autographed by people like Ruppelt and Keyhoe and some
of the books had personal notes and pics I guess someone forgot
to take with them ).

Jan, I don't know how you find the time to go through all those
files but thanks for doing so!


Best,

Greg







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   Aug > Aug 23

                    Write That Editorial And Op Ed Piece

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:47:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:06:33 -0400
Subject: Write That Editorial And Op Ed Piece


As we've seen many a time a UFO story hits the wires that some
'professor' or 'scientist' gets quoted as declaring it a hoax or
real without the story presenting the data for the public to
decide first.

There is an opportunity for ufologists to stop this nonsense and
do the public a good service. It's monumental though.

Each newspaper has it's editorial page. No secret there but
those pages carry a lot of weight. I mean a lot of weight in the
short and long term. Some papers are the big uns and some are
small but if their stories hit the wires or not it would be cool
if whenever a big UFO story or even one of the past stories has
a fresh look.

What I'm saying is get the email address or snail mail address
of the newspapers in your area then state and pop off a 'Letter
to the Editor' when something occurs. The wire services scan for
these letters and op-ed pieces and it would be good for
professionals to respond so that the public can be aware that
there are resources they can dig into from a pro instead of
someone from the cheap seats.

Could mean major hits to your website too. :)


Best,

Greg







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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:14:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:08:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:59:04 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:20:15 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>Patient and gentle Listfolk:

For new readers: This indicates a hilarious attempt to be
patronising.

>>Also, it's considered bad form to ask for unequivocal and
>>undeniable evidence to support such stories before accepting them
>>as being literally true accounts of physical events. If you do
>>you will not only be called a "pelicanist", a "noisy negativist",
>>or a "skeptibunker", but possibly, even a "narcissist" (I'm not
>>kidding - search the Archive).

>Coming as it does from a self-described skeptic,

Could you cite the item in which I describe myself as a skeptic
(sceptic)?

>the self-
>pitying tone of the above is nothing novel - it is, as students
>of the phenomenon are aware, a polemical staple - but it is
>curious indeed that John Harney should whimper at being called a
>"pelicanist".

I don't whimper at being called a "pelicanist" (I'm much too old
to worry about such things), I merely find such idiocy mildly
amusing.

>As a recent piece (a review of my book on pilot
>sightings, Strange Skies) in his UFOphobic (though always, er,
>interesting) magazine Magonia informs us, he is a pelicanist in
>the most literal sense.

Yes, I wrote the review but I don't actually edit the magazine -
 John Rimmer is the editor. Perhaps he should print the names of
the editorial team in bigger letters.

>He claims to take seriously the
>demonstrably pseudoscientific pelican "explanation" for the
>Arnold sighting (search the Archive) - the very one that led me
>to coin the phrase.*

A number of people argued against the pelican theory at some
length, so they presumably took it seriously. Its chief weakness
seems to be that it supposes that Arnold's estimates of speeds
and distances were highly inaccurate. This does not, however,
make it "demonstrably pseudoscientific", as "pseudoscientific"
does not mean the same as "unacceptable to credulous UFO
enthusiasts".

>I am happy to see, by the way, that
>"pelicanist" and "pelicanism" seem destined to survive in the
>ufological vocabulary. It proves that ufologists, if not their
>critics, have a sense of humor.

And a pretty feeble sense of humour it is, if that's a sample of
it.

>What in the world is John yapping about when he barks about
>"unequivocal and undeniable evidence"? If there were
>"unequivocal and undeniable evidence" - which he cannot be
>bothered to define (my guess is that he means something like, as
>the old expression favored by Willy Ley has it, "wreckage,
>machinery, or bodies") - there would be no UFO controversy,
>would there?

That's right, that's what we want - wreckage, machinery and
bodies - and wouldn't we have them if they were not all stashed
away in heavily guarded hangars at Wright-Patterson AFB?
However, in their absence I think I prefer more rational
explanations. If there were no UFO controversy that would be
tragic, as it would be the end for all those crazy conferences
and gee-whiz books.

<snip>

>Harney's complaint is strange and sadly hollow. If Harney wants
>"unequivocal and undeniable evidence," there are many areas of
>inquiry for which such exists (and many others, such as ball-
>lightning research, for which it doesn't). I would urge him to
>abandon ufology - the strain of uncertainty is evidently too
>much for his fragile nerves - and seek a more comforting
>pursuit, free of vexing ambiguities, complications, and
>intellectual challenges.

"Fragile nerves" - this is the famous Jerry Clark Mind-Reading
Act, folks.

>*A pelicanist is "one who proposes hard-to-believe solutions to
>puzzling UFO sightings" - Strange Skies, p. 35.

Note - not "irrational" or "plainly false", but "hard-to-
believe". It doesn't matter if it's the true answer or not, if
you don't like it, the proposer of it is a "pelicanist".


John Harney







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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:53:05 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:10:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:04:59 +0000
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>Kyle, I suggest you read Phil Klass's two chapters on the Hill
>case in his 1968 book, UFOs - Identified, wherein he makes
>much out of rhe Hills' interracial marriage and cites Dr. Simon
>as saying to him that racial tensions probably "played a more
>important role..." than others believed. (p. 230, hardcover
>edition). Then again (p. 241) devoting a paragraph to the
>interracial marriage theme. Then (p. 248, re: insinuations about
>motives) closes the chapter and discussion by saying that up
>until their UFO experience the Hills were a typical middle
>class, largely ubnknown couple. "Today, they are world-famous
>celebrities." (Nudge, nudge! Wink, wink!)

>Then try Klass's 1974 book, UFOs Explained, (which cries out for
>a subtitle: Differently This Time; for example, Klass was still
>pushing his plasma theory in the first book, before it was
>demolished by Jim McDonald and even suggests that is what the
>Hills saw!) In a shorter discussion of the Hill case (pp. 296-
> 301, paperback edition) he says: "Barney, a black, was divorced
>from his first (black) wife and now had an interracial
>marriage."

>This time Klass even manages to combine the racial reference in
>the same paragraph with a statement that Barney had sought
>psychiatric help "for personal problems" without supplying the
>essential context that he did so because of the deeply troubling
>dreams and other sequelae resulting directly from the UFO
>encounter. But that's par for the course for Klass, who always
>has been a major distorter of facts.

As you have been able to provide references which Mr Lehmberg
either does not know about, or declines to divulge, I don't have
a copy of "UFOs Identified" to hand, so can't comment on the
context of Klass's comments about becoming "world famous
celebrities", but if he is indeed insinuating that the Hill's
made up the case "out of the whole cloth" to become celebrities,
I think he is quite wrong.

The account in "UFOs Explained" is very brief and relies mostly
on Dr Simon's statements about the case. I agree that the
statement that Barney sought psychiatric help "for personal
problems" is misleading in not presenting the reasons for this.
There' I've said it: Klass was wrong. Do I get pecked to death
by pelicans now?

As I think that the main stimulus behind this case was a
combination of mistaken perception and psychosocial issues, I do
not think it irrelevant to mention the nature of the Hills
marriage, however I do not see that pointing out the fact that
the hills were an inter-racial couple (as almost all
commentators on the case, pro- and con- have done) in itself as
evidence of racism, as Mr Lehmberg seems to imply

>I have no problem with Kyle or anyone asking questions, but I
>certainly don't have the time to do all their homework for them.
>And I see nothing unreasonable in the slightest of suggesting
>that if people are curious about a specific case, to read up on
>it in primary sources.

But preferably not in such a peremptory and snooty manner .. "Do
your homework" sounds more like a putdown that an encouragement
to further research.

>Walter Webb's account appears in The UFO
>Evidence - Volume II, that turkey of turkeys which sold all of
>50 copies in the past year. If some of you would ask your local
>libraries to order it, you would have a major source of
>historical information at your fingertips.

I'm glad that we librarians (if our libraries are adequately
funded) can be of some assistance!


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:13:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:11:36 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Rimmer


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:43:41 +0100
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:28:16 +0100
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:38:35 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:38:04 EDT
>>>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

><snip>

>>>Lets start with the obvious but presumably the least acceptable.
>>>The reason for the silence is because there's nothing to tell
>>>people anything about. Nothing's going on - it's all either
>>>natural phenomena or military aircraft.

>>Least acceptable to whom?

>>(The Magonia Mafia adding its two cents)

>You've got to ask yourself, is it worth it? You scatter-gun a
>few remarks here and there in response to various posts, and
>then what? You've now got to spend time checking out Alfred's
>references to make sure he's not talking tripe,

If Mr Lehmberg were ever to offer a reference I would be happy
to check it out, but so far my money is on the tripe.

>and a sure fire
>dig at Dick Hall seems to have rather limply fallen by the
>wayside. And your partner sees you drowning and rushes in, as
>always, to retighten the truss or whatever.

We operate as a double act, didn't you know that?

>Never mind. I'm sure my response will cause you no difficulty at
>all.

>That option John, is certainly unacceptable to me. I suspect it
>is unacceptable to Greg, though I don't know for sure, and I
>would imagine it's unacceptable to a great many others on this
>List as well. Is it unacceptable to you?

Yes it is, as you might have guessed. Greg Boone has been quite
subtle in making the sceptical, Magonian case by cleverly
describing the unfeasibly massive conspiracy that would
theoretically be needed to maintain the level of secrecy over
UFO contacts and to ensure that no government would ever leak
the story.

By a process of reductio ad absurdum, he has show just how
unlikely the massive global secrecy agenda would need to be, and
has neatly demonstrated that the most likely explanation for the
total official silence about the various UFO phenomena over the
past half-century has been, in his own words, "because there's
nothing to tell people anything about. Nothing's going on - it's
all either natural phenomena or military aircraft."

>To make you feel a bit more comfortable, I am happy to say that
>in my mind, UFO does not necessarily equate to ET. Do you know
>how hard it was for me to say that? It feels like I've stabbed
>my entire philosophical credo in the back. Remember though, I'm
>a believer, just back from Sunday worship at The Church of The
>Later Day Reticulians (motto: I have Faith in my Belief). So I'm
>certainly down in the "flakey" corner as far as you're
>concerned.

>Let's see now, what else do I believe?

>Well, I believe it's very likely that intelligent
>extraterrestrial life has frequently, over the aeons, paid us
>various visits, etc., and a good deal of all the other cliched
>stuff that those of a lesser intellectual bent involved in this
>subject like to believe too.

>John, you have no idea how much fun it is to be stupid.

>Out of interest, do you believe in anything at all?

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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              Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:48:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:14:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Rimmer


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:30:20 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind

>and here, in the Second letter to Dr. Carroll, almost what you
>had duplicitously asked for, if _not_ spot on:

>http://skepdic.com/comments/aliencom.html

Mr Lehmberg has at last, after a great deal of provocation,
presented a quotation from a sceptic who suggests that the Hills
made up their abduction story as a means of avoiding racial
attacks on themselves:


Quote:

26 Nov 99

Re: Betty and Barney Hill "Abduction" Scenario

A former colleague of mine who studied ethnicity and race
relations at Oakland University proposed the following
alternative explanation for the famous "alien abduction" case.
One of the facts of the case that many researchers, skeptics,
and UFO buffs tend to overlook is that the Hills were an
interracial couple, and that the "abduction" allegedly occurred
in 1961, a time when racial tensions in America were high, and,
to paraphrase author James W. Loewen, a couple such as the Hills
might have reasonably feared being "killed or beaten by white
racists simply for holding hands as an interracial couple or
eating together in a restaurant" (Lies My Teacher Told Me, 228).

According to my colleague's theory, the Hills fabricated the
sensational tale of being kidnapped by alien beings in order to
intentionally draw attention from the media, thus placing
themselves somewhat "in the public eye," locally if not
nationally.

Their story gained them not only media coverage, but also the
attention of a prominent psychiatrist, Dr. Benjamin Simon.
Regardless of whether reporters, the public, or the doctors who
examined the Hills actually believed them (Dr. Simon did not,
stating that the story was a "fantasy"), the recognition the
story brought the couple helped ensure that they would not
become the victims of a racist attack. In other words, it's
harder to get away with killing a famous person than it is to
get away with killing a "nobody."

The "fame" the Hills generated with their story might just have
been enough to ensure that, if one or both of them ever met an
untimely demise in a dark alley, they would be more likely to be
missed, the crime would be more likely to be reported in the
media, law enforcement would be less likely to "look the other
way," etc. Thus, by "making themselves famous" with their alien
abduction tale, the Hills were setting up a deterrent to any
hate crimes that might be perpetrated against them. The Hills
really were fearing for their lives, though not from the threat
of alien abduction, but from the threat of racist violence.

In closing, I'd like to point out that their strategy does seem
to have worked. When Barney Hill died seven years later, it was
of natural causes, and Betty Hill survived him for years
afterward (neither ever reported any further "abductions").
Unfortunately, their story, born of desperation, seems to have
been the inspiration for the hundreds of later accounts that
make up the "alien abduction" phenomenon. If my colleague's
theory is sound (and I think it has some merit), then how very
ironic it is indeed that one couple's attempt to protect
themselves during turbulent and dangerous times seems to have
spawned an entire "movement" based on paranoia, irrationality,
and delusions!

End quote


I think there may be racial issues behind the psychological
aspects of the Hill abduction, and these are alluded to in the
other references Mr Lehmberg gives, but at no point do any of
the other writers suggest that the Hills deliberately made up
their story, or make any racialist remarks about them or indulge
in any personal criticism.

The person quoted above does, and I think he (or she) is talking rot.

I can't really reply to the rest of Mr Lehmberg's comments, as I
don't understand them. I do not recall at any point criticising
Wendy Connors or making any comments on the Fish star map, but
maybe with suitable hypnotic regression ...


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:11:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:15:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg



>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:04:59 +0000
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:51:43 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:14:33 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:16:08 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>Shocked, were you? My goodness. Kyle doesn't appear to have been
>all that bothered by my comments, which - by the way - were
>rather clearly not directed personally at him, but were more in
>the nature of some observations based on my experience.

>In any case, this will serve as a response to both you and him
>about skeptic (i.e., sceptic; certainly not septic) insinuations
>and attitudes. (I accidentally deleted your comments about how
>nobly the skeptics were behaving by not insinuating that the
>Hills were opportunists or self-aggrandizers, but I'm not going
>to start over now. Read on.)

>Kyle, I suggest you read Phil Klass's two chapters on the Hill
>case in his 1968 book, UFOs - Identified, wherein he makes
>much out of rhe Hills' interracial marriage and cites Dr. Simon
>as saying to him that racial tensions probably "played a more
>important role..." than others believed. (p. 230, hardcover
>edition). Then again (p. 241) devoting a paragraph to the
>interracial marriage theme. Then (p. 248, re: insinuations about
>motives) closes the chapter and discussion by saying that up
>until their UFO experience the Hills were a typical middle
>class, largely unknown couple. "Today, they are world-famous
>celebrities." (Nudge, nudge! Wink, wink!)

>Then try Klass's 1974 book, UFOs Explained, (which cries out for
>a subtitle: Differently This Time; for example, Klass was still
>pushing his plasma theory in the first book, before it was
>demolished by Jim McDonald and even suggests that is what the
>Hills saw!) In a shorter discussion of the Hill case (pp. 296-
> 301, paperback edition) he says: "Barney, a black, was divorced
>from his first (black) wife and now had an interracial
>marriage."

>This time Klass even manages to combine the racial reference in
>the same paragraph with a statement that Barney had sought
>psychiatric help "for personal problems" without supplying the
>essential context that he did so because of the deeply troubling
>dreams and other sequelae resulting directly from the UFO
>encounter. But that's par for the course for Klass, who always
>has been a major distorter of facts.

>I have no problem with Kyle or anyone asking questions, but I
>certainly don't have the time to do all their homework for them.
>And I see nothing unreasonable in the slightest of suggesting
>that if people are curious about a specific case, to read up on
>it in primary sources. Walter Webb's account appears in The UFO
>Evidence - Volume II, that turkey of turkeys which sold all of
>50 copies in the past year. If some of you would ask your local
>libraries to order it, you would have a major source of
>historical information at your fingertips.


I get it! _This_ is how and why one can push through the
interminable idiocy and canted abstractionism of one of Klass's
churlish screeds! So it can be pushed up the running noses of
skeptibunkies later on, and for decades to come! Wotta
_concept_! LOL!

...Bowing deeply, Sir.


alienview.nul
EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$450.00 pledged -- $300.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite.
What others see from afar, I leave far behind me."
- Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scabrously specious scurrilous.







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   Aug > Aug 23

                    Re: Memory and Manipulation - Bueche

From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:18:05 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:17:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Memory and Manipulation - Bueche


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>- UFO UpDates Subscribers -
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:46:39 -0400
>Subject: Memory and Manipulation

>Source:  LA Weekly

>http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/39/features-abramsky.php

>08-20 - 26-04

>Memory and Manipulation

>The trials of Elizabeth Loftus, defender of the wrongly accused
>by Sasha Abramsky

Treading the same ground as before, but willing to keep doing so
until my soles wear out:

My reply to the freelance author of the LA Times article (who is
indeed a Mr not a Ms fyi):

Dear Mr. Sasha Abramsky,

There's a statement in your article on memory which may have
slipped past your fact checking, which I feel I should bring to
your attention because it is a powerful example of how a
researcher's strongly held opinions can sometimes lead to their
misrepresenting their own work when speaking to the press:

"Harvard experimental-psychopathology professor Richard McNally,
for example, has run two studies on alien abductees. He found
that most reported a form of sleep paralysis known in the
profession as hypnopompic episodes..."

As one of the dozen participants in McNally's main study (and
the related study which you refer to which was by his student
Susan Clancy, for which he received co-authorship credit), I
have read both the unpublished and published version of his
study, and the published version of Clancy's study.

I can say with accuracy that neither of McNally's studies
presented any findings about sleep paralysis.

Rather, McNally simply raised this theory (the widely-held
theory of sleep paralysis being a possible explanation for the
"alien encounter" experiences) early on in his paper as being
the operating assumption by which he viewed the subjects'
descriptions. That was the extent of it.

But his research was not a study of sleep paralysis, it was a
study involving the physiological responses to the recall of
memories. And a rather good study by all accounts. But he had no
"findings" about sleep paralysis because his study did not
examine sleep paralysis.

So when you reported that he had "found" that his subjects had
experienced sleep paralysis, you've been mislead. And now the
readers of the Los Angeles Times believe that his study "found"
that alien encounters are explained by sleep paralysis.

That McNally may have conveyed this impression to you (that his
study involved research into sleep paralysis, or that it
presented any findings about sleep paralysis) is unfortunate; it
is my belief that even when a researcher is speaking with the
popular press (as opposed to a scientific journal) there remains
a level of accuracy which one must subscribe to when making
claims about one's research. I hope therefore that you were
simply repeating comments made earlier which you procured from
elsewhere.

It is disheartening to see how truth is sometimes skewed by
otherwise excellent researchers to serve their opinions.

In a subject as important as the reliability of human
experience, it is always adviseable for the press to receive the
actual papers that are being discussed, to ensure that the
comments made by the researchers are not simply their opinions,
but are in fact comments about their actual research findings.
While researchers are certainly free to state their opinions, it
is important that their opinions are noted as such.

Sincerely,

Will Bueche







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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:48:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:21:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:04:59 +0000
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:51:43 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:14:33 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:16:08 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>I have no problem with Kyle or anyone asking questions, but I
>certainly don't have the time to do all their homework for them.
>And I see nothing unreasonable in the slightest of suggesting
>that if people are curious about a specific case, to read up on
>it in primary sources. Walter Webb's account appears in The UFO
>Evidence - Volume II, that turkey of turkeys which sold all of
>50 copies in the past year. If some of you would ask your local
>libraries to order it, you would have a major source of
>historical information at your fingertips.


Dick, and others on this thread,

I fully admit that my years of interest in UFOs are simply
that... years of interest. I hope I have not implied otherwise.
My involvement with this list is based on a very long-standing
nagging feeling that the volume of unexplaineds seems to
indicate that something real is happening. This seemed like a
good place to find confirmation without having to make the leaps
required by ZetaTalk, or being subjected to the typical "swamp
gas" emitted by Phil Klass. I appreciate Mr. Klass and his work,
but if I believed the theories he espouses, I'd find this forum
more pitiful than interesting.

I tend to place Mr. Klass in the same "extreme" position as that
of Zetatalk... albeit at opposing ends of the spectrum.

I am not ashamed to admit that I find the UFO field fun. I don't
mean that to make light of the experiences reported here, but
rather to describe my reaction to the intellectual challenge it
presents. I am absolutely unemotional about the question. My day
is not ruined when a UFO is proven a hoax, and my day would not
be ruined by an alien ambassador greeting my President. I'm not
a skeptibunker, I am not a believer. I am an interested party
willing to read and learn, and to make comment when I am
confused, but more commonly when I feel that a statement which
is subject to question. I do this whether the writer is Philip
Klass or Nancy Lieder.

I don't know everything about this subject. This List serves as
a reference work... a Roget's Thesaurus for the UFO field. I
have read inspired posts and nonsense on both sides. I respond
to both when I feel compelled.

Mr. Hall injected a healthy dose of advice in suggesting his
test of assertions made. But he also suggested that I do more
than read articles to get the information I seek. I accept that
graciously, but reiterate that, in my mind, this is what I was
doing by asking questions of the highest authority available -
the one who made the statements in question. Note that I did
not have to claim that anyone was in error in order to receive
hostility and sarcastic prose... all I had to do was ask that the
statement be supported.

If someone makes a statement of fact, I hold that they are the
party with the burden - in _any_ discussion. A statement of fact
that is not supported by evidence is hearsay - nothing more. I
don't have the burden of proving it untrue, as I made no
statement of fact. If the response is, "It was my opinion", the
initial statement is rendered even less worthy of consideration.

If you don't agree with this, you are wrong. IMHO

And to all that responded, I do feel welcomed. And lest we
forget, I agree with Mr. Lehmberg about Wendy's new CD. It is a
lot of work made concrete, and that is rare indeed.

Wendy, I look forward to getting a copy of your CD. Thank you
for your kind words. :)

Kyle







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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:27:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:51:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:39:16 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:52:32 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>An interesting animated gif image is found here:

>>http://www.spaceweather.com/swpod2004/15aug04/locker1_big.gif

>>(watch wrap)

>>Although as an IFO the ISS is not on-topic, it's a good example
>>of how a known object may appear to be anomalous, particularly
>>if the viewer were unfamiliar with the ISS orbit, or it's
>>appearance through an 8" telescope.

>>I was especially intrigued by its apparent "triangular" shape.

>>And the solar disc makes a fine backdrop, too. :)

>>I actually get goosebumps over stuff like this... obviously
>>there is something amiss with me. But awesome images of grand-
>>scale objects - seen as if on a microscope stage! - are, as we
>>used to say in college, "Choice!".

>>Bravo to John Locker, the astronomer/photographer!

>LOL!

>In other words, "...sleep, sleep, good people... all of your
>'anomalies' are mere prosaics and there is nothing new under the
>sun. All questions are answered, all obligations met, and there
>is wonder _enough_ in the mechanisms of man that they can be
>taken for UFOs and monsters, little green men, and 'things that
>bump' on a dark, dark night... <heavy sigh>...made, of course,
>from the furtive, uneducated, and irrational minds of the
>mislead, the misleading, or the moronic and mentally ill. Klass
>trumps Hall in the name of the scientistic (sic) father, the
>sycophantic CSICOPian son, and the wholly 'groped'. Amen."

>.Just a little more friendly intemperance (if _not_ well
>provoked intransigence) for your Sunday afternoon, Mr. King.
>You're not fooling anyone, Sir. Believe me, you're wearing a
>rotating flasher/strobe regarding your contentions. Something
>_is_ amiss with you, Sir, in my opinion, and it raises
>gooseflesh on _me_. In my opinion, of course, remember. <g>

Mr. Lehmberg,

You couldn't be more mistaken. Actually, I unintentionally used
a previous reply mail window and forgot to change the subject
line of the prior post. It was not intended to be in this thread
at all. It was an interesting animation because when I initially
looked at it, it seemed to show a clearly triangular thing, and
that reminded me of how so many things can look odd under the
right circumstances. At no time did I "infer" "imply", "intend",
intimate", "suggest", or "insinuate" that real UFOs are all
ANYTHING. Where you get this stuff is totally beyond me.

You describe someone that I am not. Why you do so is not known
to me, but if it is your opinion, it is based on nothing but
some kind of unfortunate mechanism of your imagination.


Kyle








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   Aug > Aug 23

               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:58:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:52:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:09:35 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:43:40 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>PS to Mr. Lehmberg... I honestly do not understand your
>>hostility, and I hope that you are one day able to speak to
>>people as individuals, and not their "side of the bullhorn", as
>>you perceive it. Believe it or not, perceptions are often
>>incorrect... one reason debate exists at all.

>Very reasonable 'sounding', Mr. King. A seeming portrait of calm
>civility and gracious rationality.

>With regard to 'hostility' on my part, well... you're new.

>Perhaps, presuming real genuineness on your part, you'll
>understand better after you've been on the List for a few
>years.

>Oddly, persons similar to yourself come and go on the UpDates
>List all the time, and flash in Errol's sturdy pan like wet
>powder, but not because I harass them with my "name-calling,"
>lack of collegiality, or my intemperate commentary.

>Provoked, I react in a measured manner. I'm not shy. Anything
>else is tacit agreement with dodgy ethics - in my opinion -
>intellectual cowardice - in my opinion - and flatulent
>philosophical flim-foolery - in my opinion - not to put too
>fine a point on it.

>We're not alone, dude... get over it. I accept that even if you
>can't or won't. I won't celebrate a reflex intransigence, Sir,
>just as you, presumably, would not celebrate mine.

>See you in a couple of months... then maybe we can 'talk'.

Mr. Lehmberg,

I fully agree that I am not alone. I do not know, but I suspect
there are multiple intelligent civilizations in the universe. I
do not know, but I suspect that one or more may have found their
way to our little corner. I know that people have seen things
they count's identify, and that some of these things remain
unidentified. I do not conclude that they are necessarily alien
craft, nor do I claim that they could not be. If you want me to
take a definitive stance, you are doomed to be disappointed
until some future event which might provoke me to do so. Until
then, I remain a healthy skeptic, yearning for an unassailable
truth to emerge. I may be a fool to think it is inevitable, yet
that is what I think.

Your post appears to be some kind of indictment that since I
refuse to engage in your style of invective, that I am
intellectually your inferior. If this is so, your rhetoric is
not information, it is masturbation...pure and simple...and
likely quite enjoyable. Your vocabulary, coupled with the way in
which you use it, is singular in my experience. That it is
practiced is obvious. That it is of no use to me is unfortunate,
since it seems to be taking up so much space in this forum. :)

I don't know what you meant by "see you in a couple of months",
or what was the significance of placing the word talk in
quotation marks.

Since you have spent the vast majority of this thread claiming
that I am something I am not, explain why I should afford you
the privilege of spending time "talking" with me, when I am not
what you claim. I would surely be a disappointment to you. I
wouldn't want that.

If you claim that your time on this list is the cause of your
cranky nature, I think you do the list a disservice by
displaying it.

I'm really not anything but an interested observer. I disagree
with a lot that is said here...on either side of a question. I
think very highly of those that study this subject in detail. I
am currently reading Ray Stanford's excellent account of the
Socorro event, and find it very compelling. I have seen and read
stuff that really made me think. That I haven't found my
"Rosetta Stone", or "smoking gun", is not a sign that I would
ignore it should it appear. Quite the contrary, I hope that my
time here is keeping me open to ALL the possibilities...mundane
and extreme.

Warmest regards, and please accept them as just that. No hidden
innuendo, no veiled disdain. Just warm regards.


Kyle






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   Aug > Aug 23

               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:15:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:54:26 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Fleming


>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:16:02 +0100
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:14:09 -0500
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:00:56 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>I still think a more traditional double exposure would have been
>>a much less unwieldy way to do a hoax than a double role of
>>film. That would, however, would have required that the first
>>exposure be on a dark background with a model or drawing of an
>>even darker object. Both methods would run the risks of the
>>"UFO" looking transparent or showing no internal detail, since
>>both methods would permit some areas within the object image to
>>be exposed to light during the second exposure.

>Wieldy or unwieldy a "traditional double exposure" probably
>won't cut it here because of the photometry, as Brad Sparks has
>kept insisting, ad nauseam.

As I recall, Sparks' objection was that the object was darker
than the sky and that because the light from two exposures is
additive, a double exposure would work only if the object was
brighter than the sky. Maybe I'm missing something but here's
how I think it could work:

Suppose the film has a brightness range of 0 to 100. Then use a
model that has a brightness of 0 (completely black, although it
wouldn't have to be) against a screen that has a brighntness of
10. In other words, a black model against a very dark but not
completely black background. Suppose that in the second exposure
showing the island that the sky has a brightness of 80 and the
rocks have a brightness of 0. When you add the brightnesses of
the screen and model to the brightnesses of the sky and rocks
the resultant double exposure gives:

       First        Second
       Exposure     Exposure      Result

rocks: 10       +    0          =  10 (rocks plus screen)
sky:   10       +   80          =  90 (sky plus screen)
model:  0       +   80          =  80 (model plus sky)

The model in this simplified example comes out to be ten
brightness levels darker than the surrounding sky after the
second exposure because the model adds no light to the area of
the sky over which it's superimposed.

>I suggested the dual-roll film spool idea to try and make
>Printy's theory as wieldy as possible, and I think it could
>work. In principle.

I see that it could work in principle, but it still seems a more
risky way to do it, both for possible mechanical reasons and
because of the potential for discovery.

>Unfortunately I think all the actual evidence is against it, as
>I argue on the site:

>http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/trindex.htm.

By whichever method might be supposed, the preparations would
have to have been made back in Barauna's own darkroom before he
was on the ship. As you've noted on your web site (which is very
well done, by the way), it's hard to explain how Barauna could
have known a "saturn-shaped" object had already been sighted the
month before on the island unless he had very close connections
to the Brazilian Navy personnel who would have known about it.

I think Bruce Maccabee has commented that it's impossible to
prove that any given photograph is _not_ a hoax, but you can
sometimes prove a photograph _is_ a hoax. What makes the
Trindade photos compmelling is not simply that they show no
evidence of a hoax but more importantly, the circumstancces
surrounding the incident make a hoax seem extremely implausible.







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   Aug > Aug 23

                  1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:58:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:58:38 -0400
Subject: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?




Source: Yahoo News

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040822/sc_afp/russia_space_meteor
ite_comet_040822230301

08-22-04

Great 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

Moscow (AFP) - A Russian scientist has reopened the controversy
over a gigantic explosion in 1908 in Siberia with a claim that
he has found debris from an extraterrestrial space vehicle, or
UFO, which collided with a comet.

On June 30, 1908 a colossal flash lit up the sky over Siberia,
followed by an explosion with the power of a thousand atom
bombs. It obliterated the taiga (forest) for hundreds of square
kilometres (miles) in the basin of the river Podkamennaya
Tunguska in the Krasnoyarsk region.

People living in the villages of Siberia thought there had been
an earthquake. Humans and animals were thrown to the ground by
the shockwave, windows were blown in.

No meteorite debris was found and scientists conclude that the
core of a comet or an asteroid had exploded.

Researcher Yuri Lavbin has spent 12 years researching the
mystery of the "Tunguska meteorite" and believes he has found
the key to one of the great scientific enigmas of the last
century, though many scientists remain sceptical.

He is president of the "Tunguska Spatial Phenomenon" Foundation
in Krasnoyarsk, made up of some 15 enthusiasts, among them
geologists, chemists, physicists and mineralogists, who have
been organising regular expeditions to the area since 1994.

Lavbin's theory is that a comet and a mysterious flying machine
collided 10 kilometres (six miles) above the earth's surface
causing the explosion.

He and his team say that on an expedition to the Podkamannaya
Tunguska river in July they found, between two villages, two
strange black stones in the form of regular cubes with their
sides measuring a metre and half (five feet).

These stones "are manifestly not of natural origin," Lavbin
says. They appear to have been fired and "their material recalls
an alloy used to make space rockets, while at the beginning of
the 20th century only planes made of plywood existed."

He claims that the cubes are the remains of a flying machine,
perhaps an extraterrestrial spaceship, while admitting that an
analysis of the stones has yet to be undertaken.

He found something else: a huge white stone "the size of a
peasant's hut" stuck in the top of a crag in the middle of the
devastated forest.

"Local people call it the 'reindeer stone'. It is made of a
crystalline matter which is not typical of this region," Lavbin
said. He suggests it is part of the core of a comet.

The scientific establishment is not convinced.

"There are plenty of amateurs who organise trips to the site of
the Tunguska cataclysm," said Anna Skripnik of the meteorites
committee of the Academy of Sciences.

"In Siberia where oil geologists regularly work you can find a
heap of fragments of various machines."

Lavbin is not deterred. He produces satellite photos of the
region to back his theory which show the "footprints" of the
spaceship (long marshes and lakes) and of the comet (devastated
forests, charred trees and smashed rocks).

Not to mention a crater 500 metres (yards) across.


[UFO UpDates thanks Greg Boone for the lead]






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                 Re: Pravda: Tunguska UFO Op-Ed Piece - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:50:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:18:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Pravda: Tunguska UFO Op-Ed Piece - King


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:49:31 EDT
>Subject: Pravda: Tunguska UFO Op-Ed Piece

>Well I didn't know Pravda allowed op-ed pieces. Any of you
>guys write an article for them?

>-----

>Source: Pravda

>http://english.pravda.ru/mailbox/22/98/395/13721_UFO.html

>08-11-04

>Explorers Find UFO Fragments Response

>George Person

>Science fiction or science vision, what does the investigation
>reveal about trace alien metals in the Russian Siberian
>landscape?

<snip>


Neither Pravda nor the alleged Mr. Person appear to be bucking
for a Pulitzer. Apparently their requirements for an Op/Ed
submission don't go much beyond "must have typewriter or word
processor".

This almost reads like the output of one of those computer apps
where you plug in a few phrases and click "create".

While Pravda may be the Russian Weekly World News, Isvestia
appears to be the more mainstream paper these days, like the NY
Times - a more high-rent tabloid.

It would be interesting to know if any of the old propaganda
guys from the USSR made their way here...Paperclip-style.
Current events might suggest that it is a possibility. :)


Kyle






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               Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:04:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:20:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:02:14 EDT
>Subject: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter

>Source: Albequerque Tribune, New Mexico

>http://www.abqtrib.com/archives/news04/081804_news_ufo.shtml

>August 18, 2004

>Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter

>By Sue Vorenberg
>Tribune Reporter

>Could Roswell be the tragic site of a 1947 alien fender-bender?

>Maybe, says Gov. Bill Richardson. Maybe not, say New Mexico
>scientists.

<snip>

I find this article to be rather insulting. While healthy
skepticism is a necessary survival skill, it is not necessary to
graphically describe the laughter and dismissal displayed in the
article. One big laugh it would seem.

To those who have seen a UFO or had an abduction experience,
this article just seems insensitive and insulting when it did
not have to be.

That said... while I applaud Gov. Richardson's suggestion, I
honestly do not believe that the gorvernment is going to reveal
anything more than it wants to - assuming it has something of
importance to reveal.


Kyle






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                      Quoting From Previous List-Posts

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:25:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:25:32 -0400
Subject: Quoting From Previous List-Posts

It is not neccessary to include all of the post that you are
responding to. Its a waste of bandwidth and Archive space.
Not to mention the extra work it creates for me.

Please use quotes sparingly.


Thank you,

Errol Bruce-Knapp
Moderator
UFO UpDates - Toronto







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                               Moon Questions

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:42:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:27:30 -0400
Subject: Moon Questions


Hello List,

Something has been nagging me, and I wondered if this might not
be a suitable place to seek an answer. Perhaps better suited for
an astronomy list, but as I am not a subscriber to one.

The moon always has the same side facing earth. The moon is
often theorized to be a part of the Earth which broke off by
some prehistoric cosmic event.

Is it logical to deduce that the reason for the moon's present
attitude is a result of its moving directly away from Earth
after its "birth" until slowed by Earth's gravity into its
current orbit? If so, wouldn't any evidence of this be found on
the side opposite earth - presumably the side that was once on
the surface of the Earth? And wouldn't the composition of the
near side be reflective of the Earth's interior to some degree?
In short, doesn't it make better sense to explore the dark side
than the light?

It makes me wonder if the dark side of the moon might hold
something beyond its obviously poetic mystique.

It also would be ironic if Earth's ancient "space port" was on
the part that eventually became the moon. "They" could still be
coming, but the space port just moved 200,000 miles away...and
faces away from us.

Also, the dark side of the moon would seem to be a perfect place
for a telescope, since it would never be lit by reflected
earthlight, and would provide a view exactly as from Earth, but
without atmospheric distortion or light pollution, and 200,000
miles closer your subject.


Best to all,

Kyle






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               HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 08-22-04

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:35:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:31:38 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 08-22-04


HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings


Mr. Vike,

I wish to pass on this information, it has become part of my
local lore. For some reason, I have come into contact with many
people who are witness to unusual craft and events. I myself
while vacationing in Minnesota in 1978, saw a high altitude
light moving at a high rate of speed and making a sharp
direction change, however I have never seen anything close
enough to make out a structure.

Historic UFO reports:

Littleton, Massachusetts

Date: Fall of 1967 or '68

In the fall of 1967 or '68, in Littleton, Massachusetts, A UFO
was witnessed by two adults, and five or six children. The
object they saw was viewed by the entire group, with and without
the aid of binoculars. This story was told to me by one of the
children who was a witness to the strange light in the sky. Her
story goes like this:

To the best of her memory, the sighting occurred on a fall
evening at dusk, in '68 or '67. She was fourteen or fifteen
years of age at that time. She and her brother were playing
outside with neighborhood friends when they all noticed an
illuminated object to the N.E. of their position on the street,
in the direction of Littleton center. The lit object was
hovering low on the horizon, over a large field above tree
height. It could have been as close as one hundred yards or a
mile away. It was difficult to determine how close or how large
the object was. To get an idea of the size of this object, I
asked her to hold out her arm and put up her thumb. I asked her
if her thumb would have covered the object and she said no. She
seems to think it was at least the size of a half-dollar at arms
length. She said that the object was the shape of a football,
not quite a disk, but not a circle either. The object appeared
to get larger and then smaller, or that maybe it just got closer
and then moved further away. It made no sound, but it was giving
off a bright yellowish/orange glow. Her brother had time to run
home and get their mother and their binoculars, while one of the
other children's mother was summoned as well. Both adults and
the five or six children took turns viewing this object, which
is reported to have moved back and forth, and/or changed size.
The interesting detail of this craft is that it appeared to have
cells of square windows with rounded corners, recessed or set
into the object, like a honeycomb. The cells or windows covered
the visible side of the UFO.

The entire sighting lasted approximately fifteen to twenty
minutes. Her mother went home and called the radio personality,
Mr. Carl DeSouze, of WBZ radio, an AM station in Massachusetts,
and reported her sighting. Mr. DeSouze had an interest in U.F.O.
sightings and would take call-ins and report them on air. She
reported that her mother said that Mr. DeSouze had received
other calls concerning a similar object.

She related another story concerning UFOs:

In the early '60s there lived several USAF families living near
her home in Littleton, Massachusetts. One of her neighbors was
Col. Poland, a fighter pilot. Col. Poland and two other fighter
pilots were flying over Massachusetts out of Hanscom airbase in
Bedford, Massachusetts, sometime between 1960 and 1963. A cigar-
shaped U.F.O. escorted them at their altitude and speed before
vanishing off at a high rate of speed. The pilots talked about
it over their communication link.

Upon landing they were told that what they saw was just swamp
gas or some such lame cover story and told never to discuss it
with anyone or they would be punished. Well, Col Poland decided
not to keep quiet and told his family, her and the neighbors.

Thank you to the gentleman for relating these stories for us all
to enjoy.

---------------------

Muenchweiler, Germany Disc Witness At Army Post

HBCC UFO Research Note: If anyone who was living/stationed in
Muenchweiler, Germany at the American Army Post, or anyone who
may have been witness to this sighting, even heard about it
taking place. Would you please be kind enough to share the
information with me. The witness would also like to know if
other had seen this also. I also removed all of the last name of
the people to protect their privacy. Thank you, Brian.


Date: 1980
Time: 4:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Silver disc.

Full Description of event/sighting: My friend Michelle and I
were only 12. We were living in Muenchweiler, Germany, and
American Army Post.

We both lived in the same stairwell. We walked behind the
American elementary school which was roughly about 1000 feet
from our stairwell. We were shocked to find a UFO silver disc
with no windows hovering less than fifty feet in the air from
where we stood. It just hovered there, no noise, nothing.

We ran to get more of our friends to be witnesses but when we
returned it was just gone. It was just hovering there in clear
daylight and adjacent to the elementary school was a fence
separating German town from the military post housing.

Is there anyone out there who might have been living in
Pirmasens or Muenchweiler in the early 1980s who might have
witnessed something similar? My father at the time was the
provost marshal for all of Pirmasens. Does anyone out there know
Angela (last name removed) or William (last name removed)? Or
Michelle (last name removed).

Additional Information:

Brian,

Hi! Thanks for your quick response.

I actually came across your web site, because I typed the name
of a city in Germany where my father was the Provost Marshall
for the American MPs. We lived in Germany from 1977-1982. The
Army Post where we were stationed is called "Pirmasens". I was
feeling nostalgic and just happened to google the name
"Pirmasens, Germany", and your web site came up, because another
American dependent happened to have a report on your UFO website
for when he witnessed a UFO in Pirmasens.

That was amazing to me, because I have often wondered in my life
who else may have seen that UFO.

There were two (2) military housing units for Army servicemen in
Pirmasens. One was located in Pirmasens, and the other was
located about a 20 minute drive away in a smaller housing unit
called Muenchweiler. There's where our military post housing
was. Our particular stairwell faced the elementary school I
mentioned in the report. There is a huge gap between where the
housing was and where the elementary school stood. I would be
happy to send you a photograph of the school, if you like.
Behind the elementary school were Army storage pools. Left and
adjacent to the elementary school was a fence separating
military housing (quarters) from what was called German town.
And way to the back of German town was a huge forest that has
something called a "TrimDisch".

The only people who know about this story, besides you now, are
my husband and my father.

The UFO was so close to me and Michelle (last name removed) (the
other witness) that if we had 2x the size of a ladder we could
have touched it.

Do you know of any other people who have witnessed a UFO in the
Pirmasens/Muenchweiler district between the years 1979-1981?

What stuck out most about the sighting was (1) how close it
physically was in the sky , (2) no noise came from it whatsoever
(3) no windows or obvious lights (4) slender, all silver round
disc. The only possible place for an opening was the very bottom
of the disc, which had a round shape. It just levitated in the
air, very quietly, in the middle of the late afternoon. It was
bright sunshine outside.

I've always been surprised by that because anyone on the
opposite side of German town would have been able to see it
easily by walking by the fence. I have often wondered if it was
not indeed a product of the military, given, as I stated before,
that there was a military storage pool further behind the
elementary school where the UFO was sighted by me and Michelle
(last name removed)..

As for the other teenage witness (I'm now 37.), Michelle (who
would today be 38 yrs. old), I have no idea where she is now.
Her father was also Army military personnel.

Thank you to the witness for this interesting report.

--------------------------

Kingsland, Texas Lights Circling Around The Craft

Date: May to August ?
Time: Nightime

Hi Brian,

Here is another picture I took the night of the meteorite
shower, which it was cloudy and I couldn't see anything. So I
missed the meteorite shower. But things still seem to show up
even if you cant see them. I have several more pictures. Some
are weird, but may not be anything. I have always been
interested in the sky, ever since my husband and two of our
friends saw an object that followed us all the way to town from
a back road about 25 miles. After we got to town we went to the
race track (horses) it was out there to, outside town where you
could see the sky without lights of town. Then we went to the
airport, about 2 miles out of town, it followed us there too. We
got scared and took our friends home and then we went home.

I have seen things in the sky that I can't explain ever since we
saw this object, by the way was right over our truck. I saw the
saw object on your site (I think) (picture) looked just like the
one we saw. My girlfriend, when I talked to her didn't want to
discuss it, said she didn't know what it was (very religious
person). The thing was huge and had lights circling around it,
pulsing around in different colors. We were really scared! My
husband and I had not been married very long. I think it was
around anywhere from May to August. School initiation night for
the freshmen going into school (they don't do that anymore,
Seniors got to wild with what they made the young freshmen kids
do). Anyway back to the subject, I'm sorry this is so long. I
just wanted to tell you about this. I think about it all the
time.Thanks again.

At least there were four of us to witness this. It was so big
and bright I couldn't make out what shape it was except I knew
it was circular because the lights went around it.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Livermore California Sighting - Approx: 50 Witnesses

Date: 1991
Time: 8:45 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 50
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Bell shaped.

Full Description of event/sighting: I was driving on the freeway
in Northern California with my two cousins. We were traveling
approximately 70mph westbound and were coming into Livermore
California. The freeway runs right between Livermore and Dublin.
I've lived in both towns as a small child so am familiar with
the area completely. I noticed this object to the right of the
freeway, hovering over to the right, over Dublin. It wasn't far
from the freeway, approximately 1 mile to the right of the
freeway. It was a grey craft. It was bell-shaped. It had windows
and the windows were lit up white; as if there were lights on
inside. The windows were square. The base of the craft had
lights flashing on and off. Midway up towards the middle of the
craft was another set of lights, sequentially flashing, one
after the other. The colors of the flashing lights were red,
green, blue and white. There was a door to the craft. I could
barely make the door out. We pulled over on the side of the
freeway where we noticed many other people had pulled over too.
A couple were out of their cars pointing at the object. We
watched the craft rock back and forth as it hovered and then it
began to move over the freeway, away from the onlookers, towards
a hill that was positioned to the left side of the freeway where
Livermore is at.

The town of Livermore California is where Lawrence of Livermore
lab is. That's where a lot of blueprints and top secret
government/military information is created, stored, etc. We saw
the craft make it's way very slowly towards the town of
Livermore, ascending higher and higher at a very slow rate. Once
it was positioned somewhere just above the city it suddenly shot
up straight into the night sky. The sky was very clear, a very
clear starlit night. We noticed our clock had stopped. I went on
to take my cousin to the airport, 50miles away, returned home
that night, turned on the news and didn't notice anything. I
called the police station and asked if anyone had reported any
sightings, they denied any.

VERY INTERESTING.

Thank you to the witness for the really interesting report.

--------------------------

Langley, B.C. Bright Orange Object

Date: June 3, 2004
Time: 2:30 a.m.

Remember when there was the meteor sightings over the pacific
northwest. I forget the exact date. It was on all the major news
outlets. Well...I saw something which makes me doubt that was
only a meteor or the same as what was seen over Seattle.

I was in Langley, BC working security on a construction site on
(deleted) Avenue at 215. After 0230 I saw a bright flash in the
corner of my eye when I turned to figure out what was I saw, a
bright orange object only about 100 feet and across the street
and just above the roof line of the houses appeared then just
blinked out.  The best way to describe it.  There was no
explosion and didn't see it explode. It just blinked out. A few
minutes later I heard rumbling.

I hope was clear with my description.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------------

Bilston, Wolverhampton, West Midlands U.K Gray Metallic Object

Date: July 18, 1998
Time: Midnight

Full Description of event/sighting: I had on this particular
night been in bed early after a bout of stomach ache. I woke
suddenly and I was unaware of the time, I thought it must be
around 3:30 a.m. I checked my watch, it showed precisely
midnight. I looked thru the curtains to the rear of the flats in
my bedroom, this faces west in direction. As I looked above the
adjacent houses I saw a gray metallic object 40 to 50 ft long.
It was close, probably 300 yards at most and seemed to be 500
feet or less in height, clear enough that I could identify what
appeared to be windows around a cockpit on the top. I cant
remember any lights as I was petrified with fear. There was no
noise, although I had double glazed windows. An aircraft I am
sure would have made noise, I could hear the noise from the
power station a mile away most nights. It continued fairly
slowly for about 15 seconds in a northerly direction then
started to gain height as it moved from view behind a high-rise
called Arthur Greenwood Court.

The next day a neighbor asked if I had seen this too, as he and
his brother had also been watching from their window in the same
block of maisonettes. I wouldn't normally report this but I have
seen on the web another report from the Wellington Road. I lived
off the other end of Wolverhampton Street which intersects
Wellington Road (A 41) from the south in a small street called
Jenkins, close to where this other report can be found here:
http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/v03/rnd03_30.shtml  I would
further like to add, I had at the time no interest in the
phenomenon of UFO sightings and have been known as a person that
would try to pass off or debunk sightings. But to me this was
incontravertible evidence that I simply could not explain away,
although I have tried to.

Thank you to the witness for their report.

-------------------------

Sioux Lookout, Ontario Three Round Objects

Date: July 30, 2004
Time: 10:00 - 11:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 3
Shape of objects: Round

Full Description of event/sighting: I had my glasses on so I
wasn't seeing things. There were three light colored objects
which were very low flying. I thought they were seagulls at
first but they stayed in a perfect triangle the whole time and
flew in a exact straight line. They went from north to south and
had no lights what so ever, so I ruled out planes. I waited for
a sound of a jet or plane as well, you know cause the sound
usually comes a little later. There was no sound. So that's my
story and I'm sticking to it. Who ever reads this, just wanted
to let you know because I just read the Dryden paper and
apparently there has been a few sightings there. They are only
an hour away. I told a few other people as well the night of so
I have verbal witnesses, but no one else actually saw them.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------------

Federal Way, Washington Strange Star-Like Object

Date: Approx: August 10, 2004
Time: Late evening/Early morning

On, or about, August 10th my boyfriends mother, sister and
myself went outside to watch the Meteor Showers. We positioned
ourselves outside on the walkway in chairs and settled down to
watch what was supposed to be one of the most incredible Meteor
Showers yet. As we sat down in our chairs I noticed a weird star
like object appearing above the roof tops. I pointed it out to
my boyfriends mother and sister, and we became memorized. It
gradually began to rise higher above the roof tops and we were
able to get a more "full on" view. It appeared to be a star at
first, but we couldn't help but notice how much brighter it was
than all the other stars that were out. It continued to rise...
very, very slowly, and we noticed that it was flashing an array
of colors. Red/Orange ... blue... and kind of a whitish
yellow..... we rushed in to get the binoculars, and were able to
see it a little bit clearer. In the course of an hour and a half
or two hours, it moved from it's original position in the
North... to a more North eastern position.

Not fast, but none the less moving while no other stars were. We
watched it for as long as we possible could then came in to go
to bed. We have been faithful about going outside to look for it
and have noticed a strange pattern. As of last night, August
17th... exactly one week from the first day that we originally
saw it, it had move drastically. We stepped out the from door to
the West, and there it was! We immediately ran over to where we
had seen it first and it wasn't there. We stood outside with the
binoculars and noticed that there as a strange white solid (not
flashing like the object) light that looked like it came from
the object.... moved to the Southeast at a decent pace, and then
all of the sudden faded out. We came back inside for approx. 30
minutes... returned back outside at 11:56 p.m... and the light
was gone. We walked down the sidewalk to where we had seen it
first and sure enough it was there! I tried to take several
pictures of it and the stars around it showed up, but the object
wasn't present in any of the pictures. Needless to say were
going tonight to get a telescope. Please let us know if anyone
else in the Federal Way, Auburn, Puyallup, Tacoma, Sumner area
have seen anything like this.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Wardsville, Ontario Light

Date: August 13, 2004
Time: 3:45 a.m.

Another sighting...2 nights after the last one I reported to
you. Aug.13-  3:45 a.m.

Same light,motionless, soundless, bright flickering white ball
of light, size of a grape, at arms length. East-75 degrees in
the horizon.

It seemed to be closer...and much brighter than the other night.
So much brighter, I was able to snap some pictures of it. I also
saw a passenger jet fly very close to it, I'm sure the pilot
must have seen it.

The light lasted for about 20 minutes the stars moved, but the
light remained in its stationary position. It was still there in
the sky when I went back to bed.

I know this is not a star...because it is not out every
night...and much to bright...and sometimes motionless???

I wish the pictures were better...but I'm surprised it captured
it at all....my cheap digital camera does not do well with night
shots....it has to be bright, or nothing.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------------

Phoenix, Arizona UFOs

Date: August 15, 2004

It was rather breezy today 15-20mph coming from the West and
variable cloudiness with thunderstorms developing to the North.
I noticed a chemtrail being formed (under 10K ft. estimate) and
usually when there are chemtrails being formed there are orbs
somewhere in the vicinity. Today was no exception.

This white orb was seen heading South then veered off to the
East then changed directions South again. Making a 90 degree
direction change from East to West and hesitating before it
takes off out of sight to the South behind my trees. It was
lower than 2000', size unknown. Just a white orb.

After seeing this orb I was rather excited and decided to hang
out and see if anything else comes by. As luck would have it I
saw a hive of orbs hovering to the South and almost directly
ahead. I would guess it was under 2000' high 20' long and
there's about 40-50 orbs in two rows with the tip of the hive
red and the rest white. It looked like a seahorse in the sky
especially the way it moved. It rotated and hovered for a good
15 minutes when something strange happened.

On the red tip end there seemed to be something a few feet under
it like an orb following it or checking it out. They looked in
sync. A minute later another object is dislodged down from the
hive and almost meets up with the other orb already there. The
hive spit out a total of 3 orbs, the last one coming out to the
left of it and they seemed to follow in close proximity to the
hive and then disappeared. I video taped the hive for 45 minutes
when another set of orbs appeared to the South and zoomed by
before I can catch up to it. I did capture another set of orbs a
few minutes later but it started to storm and the show ended.

I noticed one thing when I was watching the hive...it looked
like there was something coming out of the red tip like a string
but after the orbs came out of the hive the string like thing
was not there anymore. By reviewing the video over and over I
don't see how, with a windy day, the hive hovered for 15 minutes
then decided to head East. It only headed East after the other
objects were released from it.

I will send two clips with this story so you can see the white
light that makes a 90 degree turn.

Thank you Brian and give my best to all.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------

Scarborough, Ontario White Object

Date: August 16, 2004 Time: 12:05 p.m.

Hi Brian, another sighting over Scarborough at approx.12:05 p.m.
Monday Aug.16, 2004. Again coming from the west a white object
very high, extreme white colour with no light. Shape appeared
rounded with a slow floating action with a slight lift on one
side and also as if it was slightly changing shape. I rounded up
4 witnesses, 3 observed in disbelief while the fourth said it
was a plastic white bag. Wind was happening, as you can see
flying fluffy seeds moving at a good speed from south to north.
This object hang in the sky coming from the west to east for at
least 15 minutes, than turn north into clouds. Can plastic white
bags create their own direction? Height I would estimate was 10-
20,000 feet. ( Do plastic white bags fly that high?) Binoculars
were used and this object appeared strange. ( NOT A BAG)

Conditions of the sky was blue with a slight haze. Cloudy to the
north of Cumulus clouds were we lost sight of it. Duration was
close to 20 minutes of sighting and one half hour later observed
high flying white military jets dispensing chem trails. I
noticed today a new moon, as over 75 % of all my 2003 sightings
happened on a full, new or quarter moon. Before this sighting,
at 10:10 a.m. sighted white object that look like there were
like 2 or 3 flying close together like one. Observed with
binoculars on my own, lasted about 2 minutes high again at least
8-10,000 feet. Southwest of were I sat, as I lifted binoculars
down to see again with the naked eye lost sight of it. Is it
possible there is a flap happening very high in the sky and
that's why on clear days jets spray these chem trails to muck up
the sky for visuals? I'm really sorry I don't have pictures and
even if I did, you would not get much of a picture because of
the high altitude. (maybe a small dot) Have fun and quality time
with your dad and I keep sky watching. It does feel good to have
witnesses because seeing is believing.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Airport Mesa, West Sedona, Arizona Orb

Date: August 19, 2004
Time: 11:45 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 2
Shape of objects: Orb (as best I could tell)

Full Description of event/sighting: Last night, shortly before
bedtime, I felt an urge to walk outside in front of my house and
look at the sky. It was completely overcast, with intermittent
rain. There was not a star to be seen. I looked over toward
Airport Mesa, which is roughly 1/2 mile from my house as the
crow flies. Hovering just to the right of Airport Mesa
(guesstimated altitude: 1-2000 feet) was a somewhat dim
fluorescent bluish-white spherical (as best I could tell)
pulsing light. It remained completely stationary. About five
minutes later, it was joined by a similar object which remained
stationary at the treeline near the southern tip of Airport
Mesa. The two objects seemed to pulsate in a coordinated
sequence/pattern. After about another 10 minutes or so, it began
to rain again, so I went back inside. These two objects were the
only luminous things in the sky at that time.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Cambridge, Ontario Two Object Flying Parallel To One Another

Date: August 20. 2004
Time: 10:38 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 2
Shape of objects: Plane like - had wings.

Full Description of event/sighting: I went out side on our patio
for a smoke. Was just watching the sky when 2 objects went
flying by very fast. They were flying parallel to each other,
but seemed to be weaving back and forth. It was kind of hazy and
made them look orange in colour. They flew extremely fast and I
only saw them for about 5 seconds. Thought they might be a
meteor, but they didn't go quite as fast like meteors go through
the sky and the fact they were together makes me wonder.

There was no sound like there usually is when a plane flies over.

Additional Information:

Q. - Can you please describe the weather. Was it Overcast?
Raining? A clear night? Full moon?

A. - No Full moon. The weather was nice. No rain, though it
seemed a bit hazy. It seemed clear above our house as I was
gazing at the stars.

Q. - In what part of the sky was the UFO located? North, South,
East, West? On the horizon or straight overhead or somewhere in
between?

A. - There was two of them going north to south.

Q. - Describe the appearance of the UFO: shape, size, distance,
color, texture, sound. The reason why i left the question in
about the sound was, I noticed you mentioned that the objects
didn't make a noise like aircraft do, but wondering was there
any noise at all, and if so would you be able to describe it for
me please ?

A. - They had wings. Shaped almost like a plane. No sound at all
that I can recall. We have planes going over all the time and
they make sound. The both appears orange in colour. That may
have been due to the haze.

Q. - Describe the area in which you made the sighting. Is it
near an airport? An Air Force Base? A military or research
installation of any kind.

A. - There is a small municipal airport. We are about 1 hour
southwest of the Toronto Airport and an hour or so from the
Hamilton airport. Not aware of any military installations.

Q. - Also did you happen to see any aircraft in the area at the
time of the sighting ?

A. - There was a couple of airplanes. One flying east and one
going south west. The two objects were much higher in the sky.
The planes I could see clearly, including their lights.

Q. - Did you happen to notice if there was a trail or tail
following behind them ?

A. - No tail or trail that I noticed.

Q. - Did any of the objects have lights on them ?

A. - No lights. They were just illuminated an orange colour.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 23

               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:15:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:32:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:14:19 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:59:04 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:20:15 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind


Patient and gentle Listfolk:

>>the self-
>>pitying tone of the above is nothing novel - it is, as students
>>of the phenomenon are aware, a polemical staple - but it is
>>curious indeed that John Harney should whimper at being called a
>>"pelicanist".

>I don't whimper at being called a "pelicanist" (I'm much too old
>to worry about such things), I merely find such idiocy mildly
>amusing.

Well, at least we agree on one thing: Pelicanism _is_ idiotic.
We disagree, however, on the "mildly amusing" aspect.
Personally, I find it hilarious. Nonetheless, maybe there's
hope for John Harney after all.


Jerry Clark








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 23

              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:53:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:35:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Connors


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:48:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>Wendy, I look forward to getting a copy of your CD. Thank
>you for your kind words. :)

You're welcome, Kyle. Along with Jerry Clark's UFO Encyclopedia
you will find Dick Hall's, The UFO Evidence Volume II an
absolute must have on your shelf. Expensive? Yes. Worth a
thousand times what you pay? A true absolute. I've tinkled away
a ton of money on junk books dealing with Ufology over the last
40+ years. I no longer do that and only essential and serious
reference works, such as I just mentioned, line my shelves.
Klass's books were pitched out as the junk they are, along with
the others, years ago.

Also, I am as guilty as everyone else on this List of getting my
hackles up and my electronic tongue as sharp and hot as if
forged in Hell itself when it comes to the incessant battle
between the Evil Empire of Pelicanism and the study of Ufology.
Open minded skeptics are extremely scarce on this List. The
fallacy of dichotomy and all that. I recommend when these wars
begin, just sit back and enjoy the colors of the mushroom
clouds. <VBG>


Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com







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               Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:00:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:38:07 -0400
Subject: Re:  Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Groff

>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:48:00 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:30:20 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind

>>and here, in the Second letter to Dr. Carroll, almost what you
>>had duplicitously asked for, if _not_ spot on:

>>http://skepdic.com/comments/aliencom.html

>Mr Lehmberg has at last, after a great deal of provocation,
>presented a quotation from a sceptic who suggests that the Hills
>made up their abduction story as a means of avoiding racial
>attacks on themselves:


>Quote:

>26 Nov 99

>Re: Betty and Barney Hill "Abduction" Scenario

<snip>

Fame as a deterrent to hate crimes? It seems to me that there
have been many very high profile hate crimes over the last 40
years or so. King, Evers and Biko immediately come to mind. It
seems their fame was no deterrent.

The Hill's might have been fortunate that their fame didn't put
them more squarely in someone's crosshairs.

Being a 'nobody' might have it's advantages.

'Nemo esse vult nemo et quonium nemo sum ego, ipse sum qui esse
volo!'

Nobody wants to be a nobody. but since I am nobody, I'm exactly
who I want to be.

Terry Groff

Webmaster
Dallas-Fort Worth MUFON
http://mufondfw.com

Webmaster
UFO TOOLS
http://terrygroff.com/ufotools/

Ringmaster
The UFO/UAP Research Webring
http://x.webring.com/hub?ring=ufologicalresear

"The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO.
Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket
and refracted the light from Venus"
- Agent 'K'






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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:15:24 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:13:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:53:05 +0100
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:04:59 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>Kyle, I suggest you read Phil Klass's two chapters on the Hill
>>case in his 1968 book, UFOs - Identified, wherein he makes
>>much out of rhe Hills' interracial marriage and cites Dr. Simon
>>as saying to him that racial tensions probably "played a more
>>important role..." than others believed. (p. 230, hardcover
>>edition). Then again (p. 241) devoting a paragraph to the
>>interracial marriage theme. Then (p. 248, re: insinuations about
>>motives) closes the chapter and discussion by saying that up
>>until their UFO experience the Hills were a typical middle
>>class, largely ubnknown couple. "Today, they are world-famous
>>celebrities." (Nudge, nudge! Wink, wink!)

<snip>

>As I think that the main stimulus behind this case was a
>combination of mistaken perception and psychosocial issues, I do
>not think it irrelevant to mention the nature of the Hills
>marriage, however I do not see that pointing out the fact that
>the Hills were an inter-racial couple (as almost all
>commentators on the case, pro- and con- have done) in itself as
>evidence of racism, as Mr Lehmberg seems to imply

John,

"Psychosocial issues," eh? Like what? "Tensions arising from a
mixed marriage?" That might be more conceivable in the southern
U.S. during the 1960s, but much less likely in New England, of
which I am a native. Barney and Betty seemed very well adjusted
to those of us who knew them in those days, rather well educated
and intelligent, normal in all respects. And mistaken perception
of what?

>>I have no problem with Kyle or anyone asking questions, but I
>>certainly don't have the time to do all their homework for them.
>>And I see nothing unreasonable in the slightest of suggesting
>>that if people are curious about a specific case, to read up on
>>it in primary sources.

>But preferably not in such a peremptory and snooty manner .. "Do
>your homework" sounds more like a putdown that an encouragement
>to further research.

John,

I am an abstractor by profession, trained to write briefly and
concisely. I think perceived "snootiness" is in the eye of the
perceiver in this case. But since this is by far the most civil
communication from you in a long time, I wish to acknowledge it
as such. (Will I now be riddlled by bullets from pelican
hunters?)

>>Walter Webb's account appears in The UFO
>>Evidence - Volume II, that turkey of turkeys which sold all of
>>50 copies in the past year. If some of you would ask your local
>>libraries to order it, you would have a major source of
>>historical information at your fingertips.

>I'm glad that we librarians (if our libraries are adequately
>funded) can be of some assistance!

I have a fond place in my heart for librarians, and my sister is
one (professor of library sciences).


 - Dick








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               Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:25:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:41:50 -0400
Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -



>Source: Yahoo News

>http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040822/sc_afp/russia_space_meteo
rite_comet_040822230301

>08-22-04

>Great 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

>Moscow (AFP) - A Russian scientist has reopened the controversy
>over a gigantic explosion in 1908 in Siberia with a claim that
>he has found debris from an extraterrestrial space vehicle, or
>UFO, which collided with a comet.


<tongue_in_cheek>

Actually what happened is one chance out of a googolplex of
chances.

The UFO was chasing the comet in order to refuel but during the
energy exchange a Siberian bigfoot farted and the sudden and
unexpected addition of methane into the process acted as
catalyst for the explosion. </tongue_in_cheek>


Terry








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             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:34:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:35:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:27:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:39:16 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:52:32 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>An interesting animated gif image is found here:

>>>http://www.spaceweather.com/swpod2004/15aug04/locker1_big.gif

>>In other words, "...sleep, sleep, good people... all of your
>>'anomalies' are mere prosaics and there is nothing new under the
>>sun. All questions are answered, all obligations met, and there
>>is wonder _enough_ in the mechanisms of man that they can be
>>taken for UFOs and monsters, little green men, and 'things that
>>bump' on a dark, dark night... <heavy sigh>...made, of course,
>>from the furtive, uneducated, and irrational minds of the
>>mislead, the misleading, or the moronic and mentally ill. Klass
>>trumps Hall in the name of the scientistic (sic) father, the
>>sycophantic CSICOPian son, and the wholly 'groped'. Amen."

>>Just a little more friendly intemperance (if _not_ well
>>provoked intransigence) for your Sunday afternoon, Mr. King.
>>You're not fooling anyone, Sir. Believe me, you're wearing a
>>rotating flasher/strobe regarding your contentions. Something
>>_is_ amiss with you, Sir, in my opinion, and it raises
>>gooseflesh on _me_. In my opinion, of course, remember. <g>

>You couldn't be more mistaken. Actually, I unintentionally used
>a previous reply mail window and forgot to change the subject
>line of the prior post. It was not intended to be in this thread
>at all. It was an interesting animation because when I initially
>looked at it, it seemed to show a clearly triangular thing, and
>that reminded me of how so many things can look odd under the
>right circumstances. At no time did I "infer" "imply", "intend",
>intimate", "suggest", or "insinuate" that real UFOs are all
>ANYTHING. Where you get this stuff is totally beyond me.

>You describe someone that I am not. Why you do so is not known
>to me, but if it is your opinion, it is based on nothing but
>some kind of unfortunate mechanism of your imagination.


Perhaps not so "unfortunate," Mr. King. As airily, lack of
mechanism might explain your apparent readiness to accept what
you been told by 'authority' as inviolate.

alienview.nul







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                         Re: Moon Questions - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:12:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:36:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Groff


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:42:34 -0500
>Subject: Moon Questions

<snip>

>Also, the dark side of the moon would seem to be a perfect place
>for a telescope, since it would never be lit by reflected
>earthlight, and would provide a view exactly as from Earth, but
>without atmospheric distortion or light pollution, and 200,000
>miles closer your subject.

Hi Kyle and welcome to the list.

Actually there is no 'dark side' per se. During the new moon,
the side facing us has become the dark side and the opposite
side is well lit by the sun. However, the opposite side is as
good a place for a scope as any. The scope would have to be able
to cope with the temperature extremes spending about 2 weeks in
sunlight and 2 weeks in the dark. If the scope was placed at one
of the moon's poles the stresses might be more evenly
distributed but since the Moon does wobble slightly there is no
spot that is always dark or always sunlit.


Terry







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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Weber

From: Bill Weber <wweber1.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:16:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:38:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Weber


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:53:40 -0600
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:48:12 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

><snip>

>>Wendy, I look forward to getting a copy of your CD. Thank
>>you for your kind words. :)

>You're welcome, Kyle. Along with Jerry Clark's UFO
>Encyclopedia you will find Dick Hall's, The UFO Evidence Volume
>II an absolute must have on your shelf. Expensive? Yes. Worth a
>thousand times what you pay? A true absolute. I've tinkled away
>a ton of money on junk books dealing with Ufology over the last
>40+ years. I no longer do that and only essential and serious
>reference works, such as I just mentioned, line my shelves.
>Klass's books were pitched out as the junk they are, along with
>the others, years ago.

I couldn't agree more. I was talking about that just this this
morning. Both Hall and Clark have put together 'must have'
volumes that in any mainstream area of research would be
standard issue texts and provide the basis from which the value
of others would be measured. Worthwhile reading lists exist
online (many including the work of Don Ledger, by the way), but
these three volumes are indispensable. I use them nearly every
day.

However, buying Wendy's latest offering is also money well
spent. I enjoy the audio format for information since I spend so
much time commuting. Get yourself MP3 equipped, Wendy's latest
addition, and you couldn't be more impressed.


Best,

Bill Weber









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                           Re: Barry Taff? - Burns

From: Chris Burns <Thurstonoreggae.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:16:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:40:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Barry Taff? - Burns


Hey List,

I came upon a random post on a UFO message board where a reader
claims that MUFON 'questioned' the legitimacy of Dr. Barry
Taff's doctorate degree, not that MUFON's word is gold but it
got my eyebrow arched.

So, anybody hear of this, or know concretely what Dr. Taff's
background is?

I was unable to find a bio detailing his education apart from
the description of "former UCLA parapsychologist".

My interest in him lies in several interviews he gave that
struck me as provocative in regard to his thoughs on the UFO
phenomenon. But I would love to know more about his background
before I spend anymore time trying to find his material.

This List helped me out with what was (and wasn't) Thomas
Bearden's background (The Excalibur Briefing is propping up a
short leg on my card table now), so I'm hoping someone can
enlighten me on the subject of Dr. Taff.

Thanks for the help.


Chris Burns







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               Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:13:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:43:30 -0400
Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda - Shough


>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:15:16 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:16:02 +0100
>>Subject: Re: The Big Global UFO Secrecy Agenda

>>Wieldy or unwieldy a "traditional double exposure" probably
>>won't cut it here because of the photometry, as Brad Sparks has
>>kept insisting, ad nauseam.

>As I recall, Sparks' objection was that the object was darker
>than the sky and that because the light from two exposures is
>additive, a double exposure would work only if the object was
>brighter than the sky. Maybe I'm missing something but here's
>how I think it could work:

I'll leave it to Brad to weigh in in defence of his photometry
argument.

>>I suggested the dual-roll film spool idea to try and make
>>Printy's theory as wieldy as possible, and I think it could
>>work. In principle.

>I see that it could work in principle, but it still seems a more
>risky way to do it, both for possible mechanical reasons and
>because of the potential for discovery.

Yes there is some additional risk. I think we have to assume
that Barauna would (ex hypothesi) have been expecting that the
Navy would confiscate his film, possibly even his camera as
well. At the very least he would expect close oversight of his
actions. This is because in order to mimic the Dec 31 1957
sighting (as you mention below) he had to have known that the
Navy intelligence department were in the middle of a Trindade
UFO investigation at the time. A double exposure would not
entail the same *immediate* risk of being found out.

On the other hand, if Brad Sparks' arguments could be elided and
a double-exposure was technically possible after all, we have a
different problem, because a double exposure should be
relatively easy to detect by microscopic granulation tests of
the negatives. Not only did the Navy and their civilian
consultants do such a test, it was Barauna who encouraged them
to do so! They found no evidence of anomalous grain density.

So this is one reason why  Printy's 'internal mask' mechanism
has been worth looking at, because it isn't at all clear (to me,
at least) that granulation anomalies would show up in this case.
As Tim suggested to me, we can't rule it out that the positive
mask might have been an ultra-fine grain emulsion, for example,
and in any case the effect of the superposition would I think be
much subtler than the increased grain-density of a double
exposure.

>>Unfortunately I think all the actual evidence is against it, as
>>I argue on the site:

>>http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/trindex.htm.

>By whichever method might be supposed, the preparations would
>have to have been made back in Barauna's own darkroom before he
>was on the ship. As you've noted on your web site (which is very
>well done, by the way), it's hard to explain how Barauna could
>have known a "saturn-shaped" object had already been sighted the
>month before on the island unless he had very close connections
>to the Brazilian Navy personnel who would have known about it.

>I think Bruce Maccabee has commented that it's impossible to
>prove that any given photograph is _not_ a hoax, but you can
>sometimes prove a photograph _is_ a hoax. What makes the
>Trindade photos compelling is not simply that they show no
>evidence of a hoax but more importantly, the circumstancces
>surrounding the incident make a hoax seem extremely
implausible.

I agree with you, and thanks for the kind compliment.


Best,

Martin Shough.







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                         Re: Moon Questions - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:16:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:45:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Shough


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:42:34 -0500
>Subject: Moon Questions

>It makes me wonder if the dark side of the moon might hold
>something beyond its obviously poetic mystique.

Hi Kyle

As Pink Floyd once memorably pointed out, "There is no Dark Side
of the Moon." ;-)





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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:59:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:08:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:53:40 -0600
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>You're welcome, Kyle. Along with Jerry Clark's UFO Encyclopedia
>you will find Dick Hall's, The UFO Evidence Volume II an
>absolute must have on your shelf. Expensive? Yes. Worth a
>thousand times what you pay? A true absolute. I've tinkled away
>a ton of money on junk books dealing with Ufology over the last
>40+ years. I no longer do that and only essential and serious
>reference works, such as I just mentioned, line my shelves.
>Klass's books were pitched out as the junk they are, along with
>the others, years ago.

>Also, I am as guilty as everyone else on this List of getting my
>hackles up and my electronic tongue as sharp and hot as if
>forged in Hell itself when it comes to the incessant battle
>between the Evil Empire of Pelicanism and the study of Ufology.
>Open minded skeptics are extremely scarce on this List. The
>fallacy of dichotomy and all that. I recommend when these wars
>begin, just sit back and enjoy the colors of the mushroom
>clouds. <VBG>

<snip>

More good advice! I will try to find copies of the books you
mentioned. I am currently reading Ray Stanford's book on the
Socorro landing case. I am struck by the similarities to the
Cash/Landrum case... much closer to home... with which I am more
personally familiar.

As for the "camps" represented here, I have spent a large amount
of time perusing the UpDates archives, and what strikes me is
how often the very same arguments come up again and again. The
differences seem to be more about the shrillness of the debate,
or the varied indictments of the claims made, rather than the
actual validity of the sightings.

In fact, several aged posts mirror my position to the point that
I could have written a few myself. It would appear that if one
attempts to sit on the fence in this forum, it does little more
than provide an easy target for the parties on either side.
One's attempt to stay above the fray tends only to provide
sufficient "altitude" to make one a good target for "attitude".

As my grandfather used to tell me, "When they're shooting at you
from all sides, you are likely on the path to enlightenment.
Unfortunately, enlightenment often comes at a high cost."

While I don't fear for my health or safety from the barbs hurled
my way, I am dismayed at times by the emotional reactions often
elicited. Other than the obvious emotional reaction to an
extreme experience, I see no place for emotion in a forum such
as this.

Emotion adds nothing to intellectual debate, beyond lines of
text. Provoking emotion is a dodge... a surrogate for debate...
and not a proper method for advancing any argument. Quite the
contrary.

I assure you that while I am rather familiar with mushrooms and
the colors they can produce, I shall steer clear of the "cloud"
variety, lest I fall prey to the resulting "fallout".

Oh that there were a remedy for the "fungus among us". :)

Thanks again!


Kyle






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                           Reflections On Gravity

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 07:35:57 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:09:47 -0400
Subject: Reflections On Gravity


You are invited to read Reflections On Gravity Part 1 at:

http://www.acufos.asn.au/gravity/reflections1.html

This article explores some new and some old ideas about the
nature of gravity and its use in space travel. It draws together
some diverse Physics topics the essence of which is explained,
and also considers information from ostensibly ET sources.


Sheryl Gottschall







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               Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:56:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:13:31 -0400
Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:25:13 -0500
>Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

<snip>

><tongue_in_cheek>

>Actually what happened is one chance out of a googolplex of
>chances.

>The UFO was chasing the comet in order to refuel but during the
>energy exchange a Siberian bigfoot farted and the sudden and
>unexpected addition of methane into the process acted as
>catalyst for the explosion. </tongue_in_cheek>


Terry,

I have read some funny stuff here, but that's the funniest
one... yeti! ;o)


Kyle






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                     Gravity Anomalies Still Unexplained

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:50:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:51:42 -0400
Subject: Gravity Anomalies Still Unexplained


Source: The Economist print edition

http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3D3104321

08-19-2004

Links to paper at:

http://arxiv.org/ftp/gr-qc/papers/0408/0408023.pdf)


An Invisible Hand?

An unexplained effect during solar eclipses casts doubt on
General Relativity

"ASSUME nothing" is a good motto in science. Even the humble
pendulum may spring a surprise on you. In 1954 Maurice Allais, a
French economist who would go on to win, in 1988, the Nobel
prize in his subject, decided to observe and record the
movements of a pendulum over a period of 30 days.
Coincidentally, one of his observations took place during a
solar eclipse. When the moon passed in front of the sun, the
pendulum unexpectedly started moving a bit faster than it should
have done.

Since that first observation, the "Allais effect", as it is now
called, has confounded physicists. If the effect is real, it
could indicate a hitherto unperceived flaw in General
Relativity=97the current explanation of how gravity works.

Space

That would be a bombshell=97and an ironic one, since it was
observations taken during a solar eclipse (of the way that light
is bent when it passes close to the sun) which established
General Relativity in the first place. So attempts to duplicate
Dr Allais's observation are important. However, they have had
mixed success, leading sceptics to question whether there was
anything to be explained. Now Chris Duif, a researcher at the
Delft University of Technology, in the Netherlands, has reviewed
the evidence. According to a paper he has just posted on
arXiv.org, an online publication archive, the effect is real,
unexplained, and could be linked to another anomaly involving a
pair of American spacecraft.

Three different types of instrument have been used to detect the
Allais effect. The first are conventional pendulums, such as the
one Dr Allais used originally. The second are torsion pendulums,
which work by hanging a bar that has weights at each end from a
wire. As the wire twists back and forth, the bar rotates in
pendulum-like motion. The third are gravimeters, which are, in
essence, very precise scales. All of these instruments measure
the acceleration due to gravity at the Earth's surface, a
quantity known as g. The Allais effect is a small additional
acceleration, so tiny that it would take an apple about a day to
fall from a tree branch if it were the only gravitational effect
around.

Allez, Allais

Dr Duif has examined various conventional explanations for the
Allais effect. He finds the most obvious suggestion=97that it is a
mere measuring error=97unlikely, because similar results have been
found by many different groups, operating independently and, in
at least one case, without knowledge of Dr Allais's results.

He also discounts several explanations that rely on conventional
physical changes that might take place during an eclipse. One of
these is that the anomaly is caused by the seismic disturbance
induced as crowds of sightseers move into and out of a place
where an eclipse is visible. That seems unlikely, given that one
of the experiments with a positive result was conducted in a
remote area of China while another that had a negative result
took place in Belgium, one of the most crowded parts of the
planet. Dr Duif also considered the possibility that, because
the moon's shadow cools the air during an eclipse, this cooler,
and thus denser, air might exert a different gravitational pull
on the instruments. This change could, he reckons, affect a
gravimeter, but it cannot account for the results from the
pendulums.

Dr Duif rules out a third explanation, too: that cooling of the
Earth's crust due to the eclipse shadow causes the ground to
tilt slightly, and thus distorts the results. He notes that
although a detectable tilt is caused when the temperature drops
by a few degrees, that tilt is too small to explain the
anomalies and, in any case, it would lag roughly 30 minutes
behind the shadow (because it takes time for the ground to cool)
while the experimental measurements show a change in g
instantaneously during an eclipse.

Although Dr Duif discounts each of the conventional explanations
on its own, he admits that they might, in combination, account
for the Allais effect. But the possibility also remains that
General Relativity=97Einstein's sacred child=97is wrong.

This suggestion would fit in with another odd phenomenon: the
fact that the Pioneer 10 and 11 space-probes, launched by NASA,
America's space agency, in the early 1970s, are receding from
the sun slightly more slowly than they should be.

According to a painstakingly detailed study by the Jet
Propulsion Laboratory, the part of NASA responsible for the
craft, there is no conventional explanation for this. There may,
of course, be no relationship with the Allais effect. But Dr
Duif points out that the anomalous force felt by both Pioneer
probes (which are travelling in opposite directions from the
sun) is about the same size as that measured by some gravimeters
during solar eclipses.

So what are the alternatives? One possibility (though it could
not account for the Pioneer observations) is known as Majorana
shielding. This eponymous theory is that large masses (such as
the moon) partially block the gravitational force from more
distant objects (such as the sun). Another idea is "MOND", or
Modified Newtonian Dynamics, a theory put forward in 1983 by
Moti Milgrom of the Weizmann Institute in Israel. MOND suggests
that at very low accelerations gravity gets a bit stronger. An
even stranger suggestion, made in 2002 by Mikhail Gershteyn,
then at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, is that the
force of gravity is different in different directions. Most
physicists do not like that one at all. It requires that the
conceptual "frames of reference" against which movement,
acceleration and so on are measured, are not uniform in all
directions. But it was a similarly radical idea=97that there is no
absolute frame of reference in the universe, only local frames
that can be measured relative to one another, which put the
"relativity" into relativity theory in the first place...







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   Aug > Aug 24

               Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:12:01 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:53:23 -0400
Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:25:13 -0500
>Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

>>Source: Yahoo News

>http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040822/sc_afp/russia_space_meteo
rite_comet_040822230301

>>08-22-04

>>Great 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

>>Moscow (AFP) - A Russian scientist has reopened the controversy
>>over a gigantic explosion in 1908 in Siberia with a claim that
>>he has found debris from an extraterrestrial space vehicle, or
>>UFO, which collided with a comet.


><tongue_in_cheek>

>Actually what happened is one chance out of a
>googolplex of chances.

>The UFO was chasing the comet in order to refuel but during the
>energy exchange a Siberian bigfoot farted and the sudden and
>unexpected addition of methane into the process acted as
>catalyst for the explosion. </tongue_in_cheek>

Greetings Terry and Listers

A search on 'Ask the Butler' also produced interesting results
in that the UFO was traveling near light speed and lost the
extra matter created which accidentally veered off course and
hit Earth despite every effort to deflect it. An ET suicide
mission to protect Planet Earth's tree's.

:-)

You never know for sure .......

Col
http://www.colsweb.com






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   Aug > Aug 24

                        Edgar Mitchell On UFOs & ETs

From: Torbjorn Sassersson <torbjorn.sassersson.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:37:54 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:59:15 -0400
Subject: Edgar Mitchell On UFOs & ETs


[Non-subscriber post]

Hello!

F.Y.I. Dr Edgar Mitchell on ET/UFOs and the paranormal.

I have published an interview with Dr Edgar Mitchell on the
paranormal, ET and UFOs that might be of interest to you.

Interview with Dr Edgar Mitchell

http://www.soultravel.nu/2004/040813-Mitchell/

Related article: Human Psychics and ETs - Can we Talk?

http://www.soultravel.nu/2004/040714-Buchanan/

In this interview remote viewer Lyn Buchanan talks freely about
his thoughts on ETs.


By the way:

I am trying to contact with Buzz Aldrin, Philip Corso and Neil
Armstrong for interviews on UFOs. I would appreciate enormously
if you could help me get their contact information or if you
could forward my questions to them. Would that be possible?

If you want more news on ET/UFOs in connection to the
paranormal e-mail and write SUBSCRIBE in the subject field.

Best regards
Torbjorn Sassersson
Editor

Phone  +46 8-33 05 72
Mobile +46 70-728 00 20
Mailto:tsa.nul

Soul Travel Magazine
http://www.soultravel.nu/index-ENG.asp

Address: Falugatan 20
Zip: 113 32
City: Stockholm, Sweden







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   Aug > Aug 24

             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 03:54:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:03:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:58:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:09:35 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>We're not alone, dude... get over it. I accept that even if you
>>can't or won't. I won't celebrate a reflex intransigence, Sir,
>>just as you, presumably, would not celebrate mine.

>>See you in a couple of months... then maybe we can 'talk'.

>Mr. Lehmberg,

>I fully agree that I am not alone.

Oh - you're alone, all right. All alone. Me too. _We're_ not
alone... see the difference?

>I do not know, but I suspect
>there are multiple intelligent civilizations in the universe. I
>do not know, but I suspect that one or more may have found their
>way to our little corner. I know that people have seen things
>they count's identify, and that some of these things remain
>unidentified.

Wow! Almost room for reasonable consensus in there... almost. Is
it a loss leader? A technique of partisan  ?

>I do not conclude that they are necessarily alien
>craft, nor do I claim that they could not be.

Yes, either of those positions would be the height of lunacy,
and equivalent lunacies at that! Not! I've a suspicion that
you've only 'read' from one side of the aisle, Mr. King. The
smart money might conclude little else.

...Dude, if you can go out to a clear night sky and not have
your knees buckle with the certainty of potentiality, you're not
holding your _mouth_ right. <LOL> And you're not making rational
points telling us earlier how much you respect our 'esteemed'
and much 'revered' Philip Klass, a world class paragon of obtuse
conjecture, fallacious reasoning, and paucity of constructive
imagination. You absolve yourself of being taken seriously as a
skeptic puling such patent nonsense, Mr. King, I should think.

>If you want me to
>take a definitive stance, you are doomed to be disappointed
>until some future event which might provoke me to do so.

Take any stance you want, Mr. King, with my blessing. Just don't
pout and whine breathy protests about "attacks" and "name-
calling" when somebody appears who won't validate _your_ faith.

>Until
>then, I remain a healthy skeptic, yearning for an unassailable
>truth to emerge.

Well then, it is likely _you_ who are doomed to disappointment,
Mr. King; no small irony there. Unassailable 'truths' are as
rare as they are unreasonable. As to whether or not you remain a
healthy skeptic... or are even a skeptic at _all_... _that_
remains, as I had written, to be seen. You're apparent choice of
'health' provider seems to cast your aggregate sincerity in some
doubt. Let's have this conversation in a couple of months, nest
ce pas?

>I may be a fool to think it is inevitable, yet
>that is what I think.

You _may_ be a fool. What follows only suggests it.

>Your post appears to be some kind of indictment that since I
>refuse to engage in your style of invective, that I am
>intellectually your inferior.

Excuse me? There is little apology that I feel the way I do and
I'm not scared to question your motivations, assertions and
positions. ...Get up in your face in the  . If you take that as
invective... well, there is little I really _want_ to do about
it. I'm convinced that the moderator will keep me in line, even
if you can't.

With regard to your "intellectual inferiority", or lack of
same... I can only offer that that is some kind of annoyed if
irrelevant projection on your part. I'm pretty dumb about some
things, Mr. King. I'd presume you're pretty _smart_ about
others... I'm left handed, FYI, so it's likely that I'm into all
sorts of procedural pre-versions, creative malapropisms, and
airy heresies. ...Puts a nice edge on the art though... [g].

>If this is so, your rhetoric is
>not information, it is masturbation...pure and simple...and
>likely quite enjoyable.

Wow, forgetting for a moment that this seems to cross a line on
a multitude of levels... what a thing to share. out loud. in a
public forum... But, I've always said that writing _is_ better
than sex, so there just might _be_ something to what you say,
after all. Did I get any on you? It's alright... my herpes is
dormant. LOL!

>Your vocabulary, coupled with the way in
>which you use it, is singular in my experience.

Andy Roberts describes it as the way 18th Century English sea
captains used to talk. I liked that! I wasn't insulted, and it
was likely meant that way. You'd like him I think. I'm sure he,
already, likes you. I've no excuse but that I respect the
language. No apologies here...

>That it is
>practiced is obvious. That it is of no use to me is unfortunate,
>since it seems to be taking up so much space in this forum. :)

What a wonderfully benign slight! What a delicate bit of pointed
insult. What a _pot_ calling the kettle black...! The emoticon
was a nice touch too, fitting from one who's used their space to
whine and moan about the invective of others, grind suspicious
axes, and ooze impassioned explications on their own sense of
fairness and balance...

Um... I'm becoming aroused again; better get your rubber
knickers on. I'm wounded, of course, Mr. King. Verily! <LOL>

>I don't know what you meant by "see you in a couple of months",
>or what was the significance of placing the word talk in
>quotation marks.

Here I'll help... if you're still here (in the UFO UpDates
Forum) in a couple of months and have avoided aping wet flash
powder, we'll talk about your ships and shoes and sealing wax,
your cabbages and kings... but for now, "given my intemperate
invective" and your ability to blithely perform what you accuse,
there won't be much chance for "talk." For now - If it walks
like a duck and quacks to suit, I'm going to presume water fowl
and pepper it with some judicious buckshot. There's room for all
manner of subsequent apology later on... if called for. [g].

>Since you have spent the vast majority of this thread claiming
>that I am something I am not, explain why I should afford you
>the privilege of spending time "talking" with me, when I am not
>what you claim. I would surely be a disappointment to you. I
>wouldn't want that.

Suit yourself, Sir. You would afford me privileges, now? It may
be Mr. King, that you have a higher regard for yourself than I
do, for you, at present.

>If you claim that your time on this list is the cause of your
>cranky nature, I think you do the list a disservice by
>displaying it.

They've gotten over it in the first place and likely titter in
embarrassed schadenfrude that you would presume to evaluate what
'services' UpDates, in the second. You, the intellectually
corrupt Mr. Klass, and the lovely Mr. Rimmer are the preferred
antithesis to the evil that I do, presumably... LOL. You _do_
think quite a lot of yourself, don't you. Nothing wrong with
that. [g].

>I'm really not anything but an interested observer.

So you have advised.

>I disagree
>with a lot that is said here...on either side of a question.

So you would have me believe.

>I
>think very highly of those that study this subject in detail.

Just saying that provides little verity, moreover I suspect
you've cherry picked your 'details' such as they are... we'll
see as the weeks and months spin out.

>I
>am currently reading Ray Stanford's excellent account of the
>Socorro event, and find it very compelling. I have seen and read
>stuff that really made me think. That I haven't found my
>"Rosetta Stone", or "smoking gun", is not a sign that I would
>ignore it should it appear.

We'll see.

>Quite the contrary, I hope that my
>time here is keeping me open to ALL the possibilities...mundane
>and extreme.


Uh -huh. Very high minded... sounding. Proclaimed from the "high
ground" one would assume.

>Warmest regards, and please accept them as just that. No hidden
>innuendo, no veiled disdain. Just warm regards.

...A fine fellow, really. Nothin' up _his_ sleeve! <LOL>

alienview.nul






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   Aug > Aug 24

                 UFO Triangle Formation Melbourne Australia

From: John Auchettl <Praufo.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:25:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:08:14 -0400
Subject: UFO Triangle Formation Melbourne Australia


Hi Errol And List,

UFO TRIANGLE FORMATION
Melbourne
Australia
23 Aug 2004-08-24
c. Phenomena Research Australia


Two large formations of light were captured on video last night
23 Aug 2004. The formation was moving over Melbourne while the
video was taken at a location near Pascoe Vale.

The objects were in two groups of three lights and each group
was in a triangle formation.

The video was taken by Mark & Janine Blease of Melbourne. PRA
have a copy of the video for analysis and so does Channel 7 TV
Melbourne.

A check of Melbourne Air Traffic Control, show no aircraft at
that location or in formation at that time and no radar contact
was reported.

This morning on the Breakfast Show - Radio station 3AW
Melbourne, spoke to the couple who took the video and they said
it was quite a surprise and very spectacular, offering no
explanation. Other people called the radio station and some did
come onto the 'talk-back' line to support the sighting.

This is a multiple witness event and a hoax has been rules out.

At present there is no simple explanation, however an
investigation has now been opened and as more information
becomes available we will post it.

IMAGE 1

http://praufo.bravehost.com/PRA%20-%20UFO%20Melbourne%20040823%20[1].jpg

IMAGE 2

http://praufo.bravehost.com/PRA%20-%20UFO%20Melbourne%20040823%20[2].jpg

This is night video so it is very low value data, however, save
the images to a file and then expand for more visual detail.


Best regards to you all,

John Auchettl
PRA - Director



Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2004 - 43 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE







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   Aug > Aug 24

                         Re: Moon Questions - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:02:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:10:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Kaeser


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:12:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

<snip>

>Actually there is no 'dark side' per se. During the new moon,
>the side facing us has become the dark side and the opposite
>side is well lit by the sun. However, the opposite side is as
>good a place for a scope as any. The scope would have to be able
>to cope with the temperature extremes spending about 2 weeks in
>sunlight and 2 weeks in the dark. If the scope was placed at one
>of the moon's poles the stresses might be more evenly
>distributed but since the Moon does wobble slightly there is no
>spot that is always dark or always sunlit.

I think there are a number of theories that have been proposed
regarding the formation of the moon, and the most widely
accepted at this point is that the moon is part of the Earth,
blown into space by a collision with an asteroid. Of course,
this was a very lucky event for us, since it's been determined
that life on Earth was formed (in part) because of the tidal
flow that was caused by the moon. Without the moon, life would
likely not have formed. As far as the "Dark" side of the moon is
concerned, the terrain has been photographed and mapped for a
number of years. But due to communication difficulties, I
believe no thought was given to exploration of the far side of
the moon.

I also thought it was important to note that the moon is
receeding from the Earth at a rate of about 3.8 centimeters a
year. While this rate is far too slow to notice over a period of
years, our ancient ancesters saw a much larger and brighter moon
than we do.


Steve







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               Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:21:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:12:06 -0400
Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:56:38 -0500
>Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:25:13 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

><snip>

>><tongue_in_cheek>

>>Actually what happened is one chance out of a googolplex of
>>chances.

>>The UFO was chasing the comet in order to refuel but during the
>>energy exchange a Siberian bigfoot farted and the sudden and
>>unexpected addition of methane into the process acted as
>>catalyst for the explosion. <tongue_in_cheek>

>I have read some funny stuff here, but that's the funniest
>one... yeti! ;o)

...A real knee slapper? Or another thing you're not sure about,
Mr. King. It might be you're a little too quick to laugh about,
well... anything.

alienview.nul






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             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:54:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:15:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:59:36 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <UFOUpdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:53:40 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

><snip>

>Emotion adds nothing to intellectual debate, beyond lines of
>text. Provoking emotion is a dodge... a surrogate for debate...
>and not a proper method for advancing any argument. Quite the
>contrary.

>I assure you that while I am rather familiar with mushrooms and
>the colors they can produce, I shall steer clear of the "cloud"
>variety, lest I fall prey to the resulting "fallout".

>Oh that there were a remedy for the "fungus among us". :)

"...fungus..."

Astonishing - you _really_ don't see yourself self-proscribing
your own little box, wandering the borders of your little plot
and furtively urinating on its tiny little corners - cultivating
your own molds and spores?

Pretending emotionlessness is the dodge, Sir, the surrogate for
"business as usual" (stalled!), continued ambivalence and ardent
complacency, only.  It hasn't moved us, ufologically, a
centimeter in 50 years and is exactly why we keep going over the
same stuff you lament above. A proper method for advancing
argument?

"Quite the contrary."


alienview.nul







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                  Re: Edgar Mitchell On UFOs & ETs - Shell

From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:07:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:17:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Edgar Mitchell On UFOs & ETs - Shell


>From: Torbjorn Sassersson <torbjorn.sassersson.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:37:54 +0200
>Subject: Edgar Mitchell On UFOs & ETs

>[Non-subscriber post]

<snip>

>I am trying to contact with Buzz Aldrin, Philip Corso and Neil
>Armstrong for interviews on UFOs.

To contact Philip Corso you will need a spirit medium, as he
died shortly after his book was published.


Bob Shell








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               Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:31:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:08:24 -0400
Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:12:01 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:25:13 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

>>>Source: Yahoo News

>http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040822/sc_afp/russia_space_meteo
rite_comet_040822230301

>>>08-22-04

>>>Great 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

>>>Moscow (AFP) - A Russian scientist has reopened the controversy
>>>over a gigantic explosion in 1908 in Siberia with a claim that
>>>he has found debris from an extraterrestrial space vehicle, or
>>>UFO, which collided with a comet.

>><tongue_in_cheek>

>>Actually what happened is one chance out of a
>>googolplex of chances.

>>The UFO was chasing the comet in order to refuel but during the
>>energy exchange a Siberian bigfoot farted and the sudden and
>>unexpected addition of methane into the process acted as
>>catalyst for the explosion. </tongue_in_cheek>

>Greetings Terry and Listers

>A search on 'Ask the Butler' also produced interesting results
>in that the UFO was traveling near light speed and lost the
>extra matter created which accidentally veered off course and
>hit Earth despite every effort to deflect it. An ET suicide
>mission to protect Planet Earth's tree's.

>:-)

>You never know for sure.....


True enough. You never know for sure. No little emoticon after
that. And the knowing is going to continue to be postponed for
as long as we tolerate agencies, institutions, and governments
that nurture the very intellectual void we'd otherwise decry,
that abhorred cultural vacuum which begs to be, and is, _filled_
by individual rank and file persons wanting their aggregate
realities to make a little more sense to them. Our agencies are
a duplicity. Our institutions are an obfuscation. Our
governments are a fraud. It's not the dodgy fringe, at all. It
is what provokes the dodgy fringe which deserves the attention.


alienview.nul
http://www.alienview.net







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   Aug > Aug 24

                        Re: Moon Questions - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:42:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:10:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Lehmberg


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:02:07 -0400
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:12:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

><snip>

>I think there are a number of theories that have been proposed
>regarding the formation of the moon, and the most widely
>accepted at this point is that the moon is part of the Earth,
>blown into space by a collision with an asteroid. Of course,
>this was a very lucky event for us, since it's been determined
>that life on Earth was formed (in part) because of the tidal
>flow that was caused by the moon. Without the moon, life would
>likely not have formed. As far as the "Dark" side of the moon is
>concerned, the terrain has been photographed and mapped for a
>number of years. But due to communication difficulties, I
>believe no thought was given to exploration of the far side of
>the moon.

>I also thought it was important to note that the moon is
>receeding from the Earth at a rate of about 3.8 centimeters a
>year. While this rate is far too slow to notice over a period of
>years, our ancient ancesters saw a much larger and brighter moon
>than we do.

...Can you just imagine what the tides were, once?  Wow! And
there used to be a lot more ocean too.


alienview.nul
http://www.alienview.net






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   Aug > Aug 25

                   Baylor Professor Studies Unusual Claims

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:12:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:12:12 -0400
Subject: Baylor Professor Studies Unusual Claims




Source: The News Sentinel - Fort Wayne

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/living/9490916.htm

06-25-04

Baylor Professor Studies Unusual Claims

By Jeffrey Weiss

The Dallas Morning News

DALLAS - (KRT) - Christopher Bader was one of those kids who
loved tales of the improbable. He grew up to become his own
improbable tale:

He's a sociology professor at the conservative and Baptist
Baylor University, a Presbyterian who has a particular interest
in people who say they are UFO abductees or victims of religion-
linked ritual abuse. His study of the two groups was published
in a recent issue of the Journal for the Scientific Study of
Religion.

"My students ask me all the time: `Do you believe in UFOs? Do
you believe in ritual abuse? Do you believe in Bigfoot?'" He
said. "My answer is that I just don't care whether they're real
or not."

Studying the sociology of religion is nothing like delving into
theology, he said.

"We're not studying God. We're studying what people who believe
in God and live on earth do," he said.

"God" and "religion" are defined broadly by sociologists of
religion. Belief in UFO abductions and in ritual abuse both
include a large dose of faith.

The scientific mainstream has not accepted any claims of alien
abductions. And many who claim to have survived ritual abuse say
they discovered the abuse through the recovery of long-repressed
memories. The length of time between the alleged event and the
recovery of the memory often makes it hard to investigate the
claims.

So are there UFOs grabbing people? Are there Satanic cults
abusing people? In many cases, people believe without the kinds
of evidence that would convince outsiders - it's a matter of
faith. And that means people who belong to support groups for
UFO abductees or for survivors of ritual abuse can be studied as
members of "new religious movements."

The only connection between the UFO folks and the ritual abuse
folks is that the two groups gained attention in the 1980s, as
Dr. Bader was starting his academic career.

Sociologists such as Bader study small groups like these because
they believe this is a way to understand how successful faiths
develop. After all, the largest religions all started with a few
people considered unusual by their neighbors.

"It really is no crazier than anything else," he said of the
outside-the-mainstream stuff he studies. "I appreciate it as a
belief, and a sincerely held belief."

Not that he expects belief in UFO abductions to morph into a
major faith anytime soon. "Not in my lifetime," he said.

Most of his work involves less controversial belief systems -
 why churches and denominations succeed or fail in drawing
members. But when Baylor hired him a couple of years ago, he
told his new bosses that part of his studies could seem a bit,
well, odd for a Baptist school.

"But when I talk about Satanism in class, I'm not recruiting,"
he said.

His paper, published in the peer-reviewed journal, is the fruit
of years of tentative contacts with support groups for people
who say they've been snatched by aliens or ritually abused.
Members of these groups are suspicious of outsiders. Much of his
paper details how he gained their trust - and eventually, some
information about them.

Eventually, he was able to get 55 of the UFO folks and 51
ritual-abuse survivors to anonymously fill out forms about their
ages, education and other demographic information.

That information fills a hole in the study of these groups, he
said. Most academic attention has focused on the beliefs or on
psychological effects on the believers. Bader's goal was to
identify the kinds of people who subscribe to these beliefs.

What he came up with has its limits, he admits. The sample size
is small, and there's no way to know for sure if they represent
the average UFO abductee or ritual-abuse survivor. But the
results are in line with research done on other small, new
religious movements, he said.

Many academics who study such movements tend to consider members
of these particular groups as rubes, he said. "They assume that
these are some country bumpkins who believe that the UFOs are
plucking them off their tractors. That's not what people who are
interested in new ideas are like."

It turns out that the folk who filled out Bader's forms are a
lot like most Americans who seek out unusual faith experiences:
They're generally female, white, affluent and well-educated when
compared with the general population.

Of the 51 UFO abductees, 32 were women, 48 said they were white
and six identified as Native American (three chose both
categories), 34 attended some college, and 29 were white-collar
workers. Most said they found some positive aspects to their
experience.

Of the 48 ritual-abuse survivors, all were white women, 44 had
attended college, and of the 21 then employed, 18 were white-
collar workers. This was an unhappy population, and most
reported they had dozens of multiple personalities.

What they have in common, Bader said, is that they mostly follow
the pattern found in other new religious movements.

"The theory tells us that it doesn't matter about the
personality of the `god' involved," he said. "The point is that
a certain demographic is interested in things outside the
mainstream."

Bader's own interest in such things started when he was very
young.

"I read `The Amityville Horror' when I was in the fourth grade
and I couldn't sleep for a week," he said. "When I was a kid, I
used to try to find Bigfoot in the woods or worry that UFOs
would come to my room and get me."

He'll admit to never losing his fascination with the mystery
associated with tales of the supernatural.

"If we ever caught Bigfoot and put him in a cage," he said, "I'd
be really depressed."

---

c. 2004, The Dallas Morning News.

Visit The Dallas Morning News on the World Wide Web at http://www.dallasnews.com

Distributed by Knight Ridder/Tribune Information Services.







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   Aug > Aug 25

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 34

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:21:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:22:54 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 34


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 34
August 25, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


MARINE JETS IN BATTLE
WITH OREGON SAUCER?

      "Two California Marine reservists died Wednesday,"
July 21, 2004, "after two F/A-18 jet fighters collided
over the Columbia River near Arlington,
Oregon during a training exercise."
      "The fiery crash scattered debris up to 30 miles (48
kilometers) away.  One pilot parachuted to safety, but the
other two Marines' bodies were
recovered after their bodies fell into the river."
      "The explosion at about 2:30 p.m. was visible more
than 40 miles (64 kilometers) away.  A driver on
Interstate (Highway) 84 near Echo saw a bright
flash in the sky, followed by a trail of smoke."
      "The shock wave from the collision felt like 'a big
boom of rolling thunder,' said Don Adams, a fuel island
attendant at the Anderson Chevron."
      "The explosion shook the gas (petrol in UK--J.T.)
station's canopy, and Adams went out and saw one jet, with
the rear half engulfed flames falling toward the west of
the small community of about 500."
      "Inside, cashier James Baker heard the explosion and
saw part of the fuselage falling from the sky, as well as
what looked like half an aircraft falling to the east."
      "The jets were based at Miramar Naval Air Station
near San Diego," California, "and had flown out of
Portland (Oregon) earlier in the day, said Nancy Corey, a
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) spokesperson."
      "The pilots, two of seven visiting from California,
were part of an annual two-week training experience with
the Portland-based (Oregon) Air National Guard 142nd
Fighter Wing, said spokeswoman Capt. Misti Mazzia."
      "'We bring units that are different from us and fly
and fight against them to keep our skills polished,' she
said.  Last year (2003), the 142nd Fighter Wing visited
Miramar Naval Air Station on a military training exercise,
Capt. Mazzia said."
      "An Oregon Air National Guard spokesman told the
Associated Press that the planes were on a low-altitude
training exercise.  One of the dead men was a pilot, and
the other was either a pilot or a weapons operator,
military spokesmen said."
      "Marine spokesman Capt. Dan McSweeney in Quantico,
Virginia said the incident was being investigated but did
not release the names of the dead men because their
families had not yet been told of their deaths."
      "The survivor, tentatively identified as Major Craig
Bardon, was taken to the Mid-Columbia Medical Center in
The Dalles, Oregon after he parachuted to land on a hill
to the west of Arlington."
      "Jack West was setting out his (lawn) sprinklers when
he heard the explosion and was one of the first people to
reach the survivor at his landing site."
      "The survivor did not know exactly what had happened,
West said.  'He didn't know if his plane just blew up, or
if his wingman hit him,' West said."
      "The survivor was released from the Mid-Columbia
Medical Center late Wednesday night," July 21, 2004,
"nursing staff reported.  His condition was not
disclosed."
      "Jeremy Takala was setting out nets to catch salmon
with his uncle, Andrew David, and grandfather, Jim Bronsco
Sr., all of Goldendale (Washington state), when he heard a
loud explosion.  He assumed it came from a nearby
landfill" across the river in Washington state.
      "After a second explosion, he looked up and saw the
fireball above.  They dropped everything and headed up the
river while debris rained all around them, he said."
      "From about half a mile up the river, they could see
two figures parachuting down, David said.  One landed in
the middle of the river, and the three went to help pull
him out.  By the time their boat reached the man, he had
started to sink into the river, Takala said."
      "They pulled the man, whose clothes smelled of jet
fuel, out by the parachute, but he was already dead,
Takala said."
      "Gary Bettencourt, Gilliam County undersheriff, said
he was surprised that nobody got hit by falling debris."
      "Gary Grossmiller, owner of the Happy Canyon Pizza
Parlor, went out when he saw people pointing at the sky
outside his shop and saw the parachutes.  About a half
hour after the crash, a foot-long (30-centimeter) piece of
what appeared to be carbon fiber, smelling of jet fuel,
landed on his back porch steps."
(Editor's Comment:  Now, this is weird!  Thirty minutes
after the reported mid-air collision, this mysterious
carbon fiber cylinder falls out of the sky and lands on
Mr. Grossmiller's back steps.  What is this thing, anyway?
An alien photon torpedo depleted of all its on-board
energy?)
      "Joey Evens, 14, of Arlington, was swimming with
three friends at the swimming area at Earl Snell Memorial
Park when the crash happened, and the lifeguard ordered
them out of the water.  While Joey was swimming, he said a
piece of metal fell from the sky and landed" in the river
"about 15 feet (4.5 meters) in front of him."
      "A military investigative team was expected to arrive
late Wednesday, and state and local authorities are
searching for debris from the crash, said Georges
Kleinbaum, (Oregon) Office of Emergency Management state
search and rescue coordinator."
      The following day, Thursday, July 22, 2004, the
National UFO Reporting Center received a report of a UFO
in the region.  The female eyewitness reported, "Around
11:10 p.m., on July 22, my husband and I were out studying
satellites on our front lawn" in Portland, Ore.  "As I
looked to my right, I exclaimed, 'Oh, look!  That is the
lowest, biggest and brightest satellite we have seen.'
Right at that moment, the object darted off at a right
angle and, within eight seconds, dimmed and was
gone...disappeared out of sight.  The object was round in
shape and lit up all around and had spike-type legs
(approximately 5 or 6 of them) extending from the center
of the object.  It was not like any of the other
satellites we had seen that evening, and none of them shot
off within eight seconds and disappeared."
      Commenting on the incident, UFO Roundup editor Joseph
Trainor said, "For years people have heard Air Force
latrine rumors about the 'designated hitter.'
On every military air patrol, at least one jet flies fully
armed.  This jet 'rides shotgun' on the flight and, if the
flight encounters a UFO, this particular pilot
automatically switches to combat flight rules and attacks
the object."
      "This may be what happened in Arlington.  Look at the
evidence that contradicts the 'collision' story.  The
survivor said he doesn't know what happened.  Witnesses on
the ground reported two explosions.  And that strange
carbon-fiber whuttizzit fell out of the sky thirty minutes
after people saw the aerial fireball.  All in all, this is
one very strange airborne 'collision.'"  (See the Tri-City
Herald for July 22, 2004, "Two killed in fighter jet
collision in Gorge."  Many thanks to Daniel Wilson for
this newspaper article.)
(Editor's Comment:  No doubt about it.  The Columbia River
region has been a real UFO hotspot during the past few
weeks.  Check out the next news story.)


UFO ACTIVITY RISES IN WAKE
OF NUCLEAR PLANT INCIDENT

      "Washington state's only commercial nuclear reactor"
in Richland, Wash. "remained out of service while
technicians tried to determine why an automatic shutdown
system failed to work properly yesterday," Friday, July
30, 2004.
      "State emergency officials said there was no release
of radiation and no danger to the public.  It was not
immediately known when the Columbia Generating Station
reactor would be restarted."
      "The failure triggered an alert in which state
agencies prepared to respond if needed to help Benton and
Franklin counties near the Hanford Nuclear Reservation."
      "But Brad Peck, a spokesman for the reactor's
operator, Energy Northwest, said the reactor was started
and and the alert was cancelled at 11:57 a.m., just two
hours after it was declared."
      "The reactor, which produces power for the
Northwest's electrical grid, will remain out of service
until the owners determine what caused the problem, he
said."
      "Energy Northwest spokeswoman Heather McMurdo said
lights on a control panel showed that two of the 185
control rods did not fully insert into the reactor during
the shutdown."
      "The rods, which control the reactor's operation,
were inserted manually at about 10 a.m., she said."
      "Backup systems operated correctly, and the alert
could have been canceled when the control rods were
manually inserted, but plant operators wanted to err on
the side of caution, McMurdo said."
      "'It was conservative for us to have remained in an
alert status,' she said."
      "Bob Harper, a spokesman of the (Washington) state
Emergency Operations Center, said that although there was
no threat to the public, the center, at the (Washington)
National Guard's Camp Murray, was activated, as called for
under the plant's emergency plan."
      "The state Department of Health dispatched a field
team to take air samples and soil readings as a
precaution, he said."
      "State authorities originally said that the shutdown
occurred during a test, but Nuclear Regulatory Commission
officials later said it occurred during normal
operations."
      "NRC spokesman Ken Clark in Atlanta (Georgia) said
the reactor automatically shut down after a light-positive
indicator" activated at about 9:25 a.m.  "It was then that
the equipment indicated that some control rods were not
fully extended, he said."
      "Columbia Generating Station is a boiling-water
reactor that produces up to 1,500 megawatts of elecricity,
which is sold to the Bonneville Power Administration.
Formerly known as the Washington Public Power Supply
System No. 2, it is the only one of five reactors started
in the late 1970s to be completed before construction was
halted in 1983."
      Right after the nuclear plant emergency shutdown,
there was a sharp increase in UFO sightings in Trout Lake,
Wash.  Ranch owner and ufologist James C. Gilliland
reported, "We have had almost a week of constant (UFO)
activity, with as many as 13 eyewitnesses at a time.
Several shapes came in very low and exploded into
brilliant light.  Some side-skipped back and forth,
changing speeds, exhibiting behavior unlike any
conventional craft."
      "There was a triangle on (Friday) August 6 (2004)
around 10:30 p.m., which swooped down, ducked and turned
around like a ghost ship.  It was a bit longer than my
hand.  Two out of 12 (guests) saw it.  It happened very
quickly."
      "On (Sunday) August 8 (2004), at 9:50 p.m., a ship
came in from southeast (over the Hanford reservation--
J.T.).  It burst into a brilliant golden light, dimming to
orange and then white.  It continued northwest and then
repeated the signal.  Yet this time it was a brilliant
white like a welder's arc.  Three witnesses were present."
(See the Seattle Post-Intelligencer for July 31, 2004,
"Hanford reactor shut down after alert."  Many thanks to
Daniel Wilson and James C. Gilliland for this newspaper
article.)


NIGHT SAUCER SPOTTED
IN SOMERSET, UK

      On Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 9:30 p.m., David C.
was outdoors in Piddlington, Somerset, UK when he saw
something strange in the night sky.
      "There was an oval-shaped disk with white lights that
was moving very fast," David reported, "There was another
shape with all different coloured lights coming from the
south.  This object was spinning round.  It lasted for
approximately five minutes, then it disappeared."
      "Then another two disks with white lights appeared."
      David described the objects as "grey and black oval
disks with white lights around the outside which kept
spinning.  The other shape was blue, red, green and
yellow.  They were 2,000 feet (600 meters) up, and their
speed was amazingly quick."  (Email Form Report)


CHUPACABRA'S "COUSIN" HAS
SCIENTISTS BAFFLED IN CHILE

      "Specialists from the Museum of Natural History" in
Valparaiso, a seaport city in Chile, "are subjecting a
carcass found in Cerro Cordillera to a battery of tests."
      "The situation came about a few days ago (Monday,
August 2, 2004) at the house of Manuel Otazo, who found
the corpse of a strange animal inside the doghouse
belonging to one of his animals."
      "'We perceived the foul smell and thought at first
that someone had thrown away fish by-products.  But then
we saw that our pet (dog) was frightened and didn't want
to go into his doghouse.  Upon inspecting it, we came
across the monster,' said Sonia Valdivia, the tearful
homeowner."
      "Manuel Otazo explained that the animal had a small
head and red fur, with large fangs, claws and hands
resembling wings, different from any rodent or known
domestic animal."
      "Otazo said, 'At night we could hear noise on the
rooftop, and hens and rabbits died recently at a
neighbor's house.  We think it could be the Chupacabra or
one of his relatives that was wounded and came to die in
our pet's doghouse.'"
      "After burying it, the owners subsequently contacted
the Museum of Natural History in Valparaiso, who
transferred the specimen to their facility."
      "The animal is submerged in a special brine.
Fernando Soto, professor of biology, reported that the
carcass--in an advanced state of putrefaction--will be
submitted to a treatment based on choleopterids that
devour flesh to recover the skeleton.  The bones will be
compared to the anatomies of known specimens."
      "Despite the a priori examination performed on the
animal, Dr. Soto noted that, while it could be a dog or
cat, he was surprised by some strange features, such as
the absence of incisors, the size of its extremities, and
the color of its fur."
      "The Museum of Natural History says that it isn't so
unusual to run into strange specimens in the area.  Only a
few months ago, they received the carcass of a pig with
three eyes."
      "'The owners, who were from Cerro Baran, decapitated
it at once,'" Dr. Soto said, "'Because they thought it was
a thing of the Devil rather than a genetic aberration.'"
(See the Chilean newspaper La Estrella de Valparaiso for
August 5, 2004, "Chupacabra's 'cousin' found in
Valparaiso."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Liliana
Nunez para esto articulo de diario.)


MISSING GLIDER MYSTERY
IN CHESHIRE, UK

      "Mystery surrounds the sighting of a small aircraft
in darkness over the Delamere Forest last Tuesday night,"
August 10, 2004.
      "Police launched a full-scale search operation after
four different witnesses reported seeing a microlight
(ultralight in the USA--J.T.) or glider lose control and
fall into an area of dense forest known as Thieves Moss."
      "They even employed a group of archers, including
Mike Williams from Northwich, who 'know the forest like
the back of their hand' to help out."
      "But to date, no evidence of the craft or pilot has
been found.  Police decided to reduce the search on
Wednesday afternoon," August 11, 2004, "in favor of other
leads, including circulating information to police forces
around the country (UK)."
      "A police spokesman said, 'We are appealing to anyone
who knows anyone who flies a glider or microlight, who has
not been in contact since Tuesday evening, to get in
contact with us.'"
      "The search of Delamere Forest began after the first
reported sighting at 8:15 p.m. on Tuesday night, with
sniffing dogs and handlers from the Mid-Wales Search and
Rescue Dogs Association receiving overhead support from
the Mid-Wales Police helicopter."
      "They continued until 4 a.m. when deteriorating
weather conditions in the forest made it impossible to
conduct a meaningful search."
      "The land-search was resumed early on Wednesday by
members of Cheshire police's search and rescue team, along
with an unconventional rescue service."
      "Foggy, wet weather prevented the police spotter
plane from circling the forest, so Cheshire police search
director Sgt. Martin Baker called on the South Cheshire
Field Archers."
      "The archers were chosen for their detailed knowledge
of Thieves Moss, the 40 acres of dense forest where the
aircraft was spotted and which the archers lease from the
Forestry Commission."
      "Club secretary Dave Wheeler also spoke of how he
came to spend Wednesday morning trekking the forest in his
suited clothes, ankle-deep in bog and chest-high in
nettles."
      "'I got to the office that morning and had a message
from Sgt. Baker asking could we assist the search, so I
phoned two other members and headed down to Delamere,
still in my office clothes.'"
      "'We split the forest into thirds and did a thorough
search.  We are happy to help because--who knows?--it
might have been one of us on the receiving end.'"
      "Dave said the search was made more difficult by the
terrain than the size of the forest, which is not
reachable by public roads."
      "'Knowing the place well, we could move through it
quite quickly, but there are sink holes, ditches and other
hazards that make it hard work.'"
      "Dave said his main worry is that Thieves Moss
contains two deep gravel pits that have filled with
water."
      "'I have a terrible feeling that the pilot may have
seen them through the fog as nice, flat surfaces and
landed on them.  It doesn't bear thinking about.'"
      "Police liased with Cheshire divers, but they were
not required, and a search plane flew over the area at the
weekend.  It found no fuselage."
      "He added that police had dismissed a report from a
man who runs a paranormal website about the possibility
that what had been seen above the forest was a UFO."  (See
the Chester Chronicle for August 18, 2004, "Vanished in
thin air."  Many thanks to Robert Fischer for this
newspaper article.)


MYSTERY AIR PATROLS
STARTLE PASADENA

      "Jet engines command respect.  And Friday," August
13, 2004, "over the San Gabriel valley" in southern
California, "they did."
      "Residents reported rumbling sounds while others
complained of the noise of at least two fighter jets
(which) would show up between midnight and about 8 a.m."
      "The soaring twin-winged F-15 Eagle and F-16 Falcon
surprised others who happened to catch a glimpse of the
planes flown by members of Colorado-based NORAD, the North
American Aerospace Defense Command, composed of special
military personnel from the United States and Canada."
      "'It was not an annoying buzz of an aircraft, it is
the sound of freedom,' said Canadian Army Major Douglas
Martin, a NORAD spokesman, 'It's a vital part of the
defense of our country.'"
      "NORAD, established in 1958 to combat aerospace
threats from outside of the United States and Canada, now
includes domestic airspace as of the Sept. 11, 2001
terrorist attacks on the (USA's) East Coast."
      "Martin was coy when asked if President George W.
Bush's visit to the Southland (slang for southern
California--J.T.) Thursday and Friday (August 12 and
August 13, 2004) prompted the flybys.  He also refused to
confirm when the patrols started, when they would end,
when the jets were last in the area and when they would
return."
      "Representatives from several military bases, the
U.S. Secret Service, the FBI, local law enforcement and
government officials offered no explanation for the jets."
      "Yet residents from Arcadia, Azusa, Duarte, Monrovia,
El Monte and as far west as Glendale know what they
heard."
      "'I was in my kitchen when I heard the roar.  It was
a wild roar at first, but then it got very, very loud and
went on for a long time,' said Duarte resident Mickey
Dudek, 57.  'I couldn't see, but I could hear it passing
overhead.  I half-expected a crash.  I thought, Is this
another terrorist attack!?"
      "Dudek said the noise upset her dogs and sent them
running around the pool."
      "Don Walker, a spokesman for the Federal Aviation
Administration (FAA), would not comment on the fighter
jets but confirmed a temporary flight restriction was set
up during Bush's visit.  El Monte airport officials said
the temporary flight restriction lasted from 11 a.m.
Thursday to 9 a.m. Friday."
(Editor's Note:  These flight restrictions are standard
procedure whenever the president comes to visit.  Airport
security screeners refer to them as "ground stops.")
      "'It's standard procedure,' said assistant manager
Carl Hoten, 'It's general information for pilots so they
can avoid temporary flight restriction areas.'"
      "Pasadena resident Bill Bibbiani, a former Marine,
was in his backyard when he saw the planes flying from
east to west at medium altitude."
      "Bibbiani, a member of the Pasadena Unified School
District board, heard the jets as late as 2 p.m. Friday.
He said he recognized the fighter jets as (Navy) F-18
Hornets because of their unique twin tails."
      "But, it turns out, the F-15 (Eagle) has a similar
tail."
      "'I never saw more than one at a time,' he said."
      "Bibbiani, 63, first thought the aircraft were part
of a ceremonial flyover at the Rose Bowl and Dodger
Stadium, but when they kept going back and forth, over and
over, he figured he was wrong.  'I wasn't alarmed, just
curious,' he said."
      Pasadena (population 133,936) is on Interstate
Highway I-210 about 10 miles (16 kilometers) north-
northeast of Los Angeles City Hall.  (See the Pasadena,
Cal. Star-News for August 13, 2004, "Jets' roar awakens
residents."  Many thanks to Daniel Wilson for this
newspaper article.)


ROVERS FIND MORE EVIDENCE
OF WATER ON MARS

      "NASA's Mars rovers have uncovered more tantalizing
evidence of a watery past on the Red Planet, scientists
said Wednesday," August 18, 2004.  "And the rovers, Spirit
and Opportunity, are continuing to do their jobs months
after they were expected to die."
      "Aside from minor complaints, such as a balky wheel
on Spirit and a stone jamming a grinder on Opportunity,
'both rovers are performing marvelously,' says Chris Salvo
of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory" in Pasadena, California,
"which manages the mission.  Salvo says engineers expect
to remove the stone before the grinder is again needed by
scientists."
      "Both Mars rovers landed in January (2004) on an $835
mission to search for signs of past water on the planet.
Since a controversial report of fossilized microbes hidden
inside a Martian meteorite emerged in 1996, scientists
have pondered the possibility that life once existed on
Mars, and water would have been a prerequisite for that."
      "Gusev Crater was selected as Spirit's landing site
because from space the crater appears to have been a lake
at some point in its history.  Team scientists said at the
JPL briefing that Spirit has now climbed about 10 yards (9
meters) up a hillside, getting above the Gusev plain.
Holes drilled into soft bedrock there show that, compared
with the volcanic rocks below, there are higher amounts of
elements that are active in water.  Those elements may be
evidence of the suspected lakebed."
      "Opportunity, by contrast, has descended deep into
one of the craters dotting Meridiani Planum, its landing
region.  'Wonderful layered rocks' exist there, says
mission scientist Steve Squyres of Cornell University."
      "In March (2004), Opportunity detected similar layers
inside a small crater at its landing site, layers pointing
to a past saltwater sea on Mars.  Another crater now under
exploration goes about 80 feet (24 meters) deeper,
revealing more clues:"
      "The layers look lumpy rather than rippled by running
water, as seen at more shallow craters."
      "The sea-salt chemistry of the rock changes the
deeper the rover goes."
      "Rather than seeing 'blueberry' rocks found at other
craters, the team reports red pebbles dot the landscape."
      "A lumpish rock in the crater, perhaps made entirely
of these new pebbles, has intrigued team geologists."
(Editor's Comment:  I've got a geologic name for this
rock...Squyres' conglomerate.)
      "More analysis may reveal whether a deep sea or mere
waterlogged dirt deposited the deep rock layers."
      "Both rovers have been exploring more than twice as
long as they were designed to last.  And even though the
Martian winter is (now) at its coldest, Salvo is confident
that the rovers will continue, despite showing signs of
mortality."
      "'They are developing a few of the signs of aches and
pains of aging,' he says, 'You might, too, if you had to
operate two times past your design life.'"  (See USA Today
for August 19, 2004, "More evidence of Martian water
bubbles up," page 14B.)


      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us in seven days
for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth--and occasionally, Mars--brought to you by
"the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."  See you then!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-








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               Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:40:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:24:18 -0400
Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:31:30 -0500
>Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

<snip>

>True enough. You never know for sure. No little emoticon after
>that. And the knowing is going to continue to be postponed for
>as long as we tolerate agencies, institutions, and governments
>that nurture the very intellectual void we'd otherwise decry,
>that abhorred cultural vacuum which begs to be, and is, _filled_
>by individual rank and file persons wanting their aggregate
>realities to make a little more sense to them. Our agencies are
>a duplicity. Our institutions are an obfuscation. Our
>governments are a fraud. It's not the dodgy fringe, at all. It
>is what provokes the dodgy fringe which deserves the attention.

Mr. Lehmberg,

We may disagree on what constitutes the "dodgy fringe", but the
comments on duplicity, obfuscation and fraud I accept with
absolute sincerity. Bravo!

One question. If the "not knowing will be postponed as long as
we tolerate" said "agencies...", how best do we show a
commensurate intolerance, and thereby accelerate the "knowing"?
Or is there even a chance of it with said agencies' well
entrenched status, and track record of success in duplicity,
obfuscation and fraud?

The outcry against the regime often results in more protracted
"nurturing of the intellectual void". To withhold said outcry is
tacit approval, at least in a democracy. Is there an answer?

Honestly, do you see a way to fix it? Anarchy is an option, but
what springs up in its wake may be worse yet.

I for one, absolutely would enjoy having my reality make more
sense. I am not certain that the government has all the answers,
but they likely have more to lend to the debate than has been
made public.

Trying to find that which would make my reality make sense is
the primary reason I read the posts here. Another reason is that
I find enjoyment in the wide range of opinions. Access to some
of the more highly regarded in the field is another.

As an aside, I address you as Mr. Lehmberg because we have never
met, and I haven't received private correspondence which would
clearly afford me the privilege of addressing you otherwise. As
we have now at the very least managed to "cut a rug" together,
would I be taking liberties to address you as Alfred?


Kyle






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                   Re: Edgar Mitchell On UFOs & ETs - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:52:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:25:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Edgar Mitchell On UFOs & ETs - King


>From: Torbjorn Sassersson <torbjorn.sassersson.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:37:54 +0200
>Subject: Edgar Mitchell On UFOs & ETs

>[Non-subscriber post]

>Hello!

>F.Y.I. Dr Edgar Mitchell on ET/UFOs and the paranormal.

>I have published an interview with Dr Edgar Mitchell on the
>paranormal, ET and UFOs that might be of interest to you.

>Interview with Dr Edgar Mitchell

>http://www.soultravel.nu/2004/040813-Mitchell/

>Related article: Human Psychics and ETs - Can we Talk?

>http://www.soultravel.nu/2004/040714-Buchanan/

>In this interview remote viewer Lyn Buchanan talks freely about
>his thoughts on ETs.

>By the way:

>I am trying to contact with Buzz Aldrin, Philip Corso and Neil
>Armstrong for interviews on UFOs. I would appreciate enormously
>if you could help me get their contact information or if you
>could forward my questions to them. Would that be possible?

>If you want more news on ET/UFOs in connection to the
>paranormal e-mail and write SUBSCRIBE in the subject field.

>Best regards
>Torbjorn Sassersson
>Editor

<snip>

Mr. Sasserson,

Corso is easily located, but I doubt you'd get much info from
him.

Likewise Mr. Armstrong, but for different reasons.

Good luck!


Kyle







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             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:06:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:28:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:14:19 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:59:04 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>As a recent piece (a review of my book on pilot
>>sightings, Strange Skies) in his UFOphobic (though always, er,
>>interesting) magazine Magonia informs us, he is a pelicanist in
>>the most literal sense.

>Yes, I wrote the review but I don't actually edit the magazine -
>John Rimmer is the editor. Perhaps he should print the names of
>the editorial team in bigger letters.

>>He claims to take seriously the
>>demonstrably pseudoscientific pelican "explanation" for the
>>Arnold sighting (search the Archive) - the very one that led me
>>to coin the phrase.*

>A number of people argued against the pelican theory at some
>length, so they presumably took it seriously. Its chief weakness
>seems to be that it supposes that Arnold's estimates of speeds
>and distances were highly inaccurate. This does not, however,
>make it "demonstrably pseudoscientific", as "pseudoscientific"
>does not mean the same as "unacceptable to credulous UFO
>enthusiasts".

"A number of people..." What number? My recollection is that
there were 2 or 3 who argued "pelican" and the others who
realized that there would have to have been several serious
errors in Arnold's reporting of the event for the pelican
explanation to "fly." A major error would have to be in Arnold's
claim that he turned his aircraft to look out the open window
(pilot's left side window) to be certain there were no
reflections. At this time he would have been flying parallel to
the "pelicans." It was claimed by "pelicanists" that pelicans
can fly high and fast: up to 50 mph at 9000 ft (Arnold's
altitude and, what seemed to him, to be the altitude of the
"pelicans"). Even granted that this could be true, Arnold was
flying more than twice as fast. Hence his sighting line from the
plane (now pay attention.... form an image in your mind as
viewing Arnold and the pelicans from above)... his sighting line
would have rotated *backwards,* i.e., toward the rear of the
plane. Seeing such he would have realized that he was traveling
faster than they were and, one would hope, he would have
reported same, if he reported at all. Instead, the sighting line
moved *forward* indicating they were faster than he, and they
ultimately disappeared in the direction of (and he believed
near) Mt. Adams, far south of his position.

There are other problems with the pelican explanation such as:
when he first saw the objects they seemed to be far north of Mt.
Rainier. As he was a bit south and 20 mi or so west of Rainier
at the time, and heading eastward, "north of Mt. Rainier" meant
a sighting line to the left of his position.

Now, if these were pelicans, of a size 2-3 feet, maybe, they
would only have been visible over a several mile distance, so
they would not have been very far from his plane. (Arnold
thought the objects were at least far as Mt. Rainier.) The
question is, how could pelicans have flown fast enough to pass
in front of Arnold's plane without Arnold catching up to them
and perhaps even passing their southward track before they
crossed his track? And after they crossed his track, why
wouldn't he have to look backwards at them as he flew on east,
instead of his report of looking always eastward or
southeastward toward them after they passed Mt. Rainier?

Anyone who wishes to understand the origin of the term
"pelicanism" is invited to read the most complete report of the
Arnold sighting plus analysis (including analysis of the
"pelican solution") at:

http://brumac.8k.com/KARNOLD/KARNOLD.html

>>I am happy to see, by the way, that
>>"pelicanist" and "pelicanism" seem destined to survive in the
>>ufological vocabulary. It proves that ufologists, if not their
>>critics, have a sense of humor.

>And a pretty feeble sense of humour it is, if that's a sample of
>it.

<snip>

>>*A pelicanist is "one who proposes hard-to-believe solutions to
>>puzzling UFO sightings" - Strange Skies, p. 35.

>Note - not "irrational" or "plainly false", but "hard-to-
>believe". It doesn't matter if it's the true answer or not, if
>you don't like it, the proposer of it is a "pelicanist".

A stronger definition would be this: a pelicanist is one who
proposes publicly (as if it were "the: solution) an explanation
which contradicts the best evidence (most likely to be correct)
in sighting report.

The "corollary to this definition" is that the "pelicanist" must
convincingly show where the report is wrong in order to justify
the proposed explanation. This is where the pelicanist
argument is weak and has led me to be skeptical of the skeptics.

Another example of "pelicanism in action" is the Mars-Jupiter
explanation for the sighting by the crew of the Japan Airlines
Jumbo Jet in November, 1986. Read "The Fantastic Flight
of JAL 1628" at:

http://brumac.8k.com/JAL1628/Jal1628.html







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   Aug > Aug 25

                          Re: Moon Questions - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:29:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:29:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - King


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:02:07 -0400
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:12:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

><snip>

>>Actually there is no 'dark side' per se. During the new moon,
>>the side facing us has become the dark side and the opposite
>>side is well lit by the sun. However, the opposite side is as
>>good a place for a scope as any. The scope would have to be able
>>to cope with the temperature extremes spending about 2 weeks in
>>sunlight and 2 weeks in the dark. If the scope was placed at one
>>of the moon's poles the stresses might be more evenly
>>distributed but since the Moon does wobble slightly there is no
>>spot that is always dark or always sunlit.

>I think there are a number of theories that have been proposed
>regarding the formation of the moon, and the most widely
>accepted at this point is that the moon is part of the Earth,
>blown into space by a collision with an asteroid. Of course,
>this was a very lucky event for us, since it's been determined
>that life on Earth was formed (in part) because of the tidal
>flow that was caused by the moon. Without the moon, life would
>likely not have formed. As far as the "Dark" side of the moon is
>concerned, the terrain has been photographed and mapped for a
>number of years. But due to communication difficulties, I
>believe no thought was given to exploration of the far side of
>the moon.

>I also thought it was important to note that the moon is
>receeding from the Earth at a rate of about 3.8 centimeters a
>year. While this rate is far too slow to notice over a period of
>years, our ancient ancesters saw a much larger and brighter moon
>than we do.


Terry and Steve,

Thank you for reminding me that the opposite side is not always
the dark side. D'oh!!

I also see the difficulties with temperature changes, but I
would think that the Hubble telescope deals with such extremes.

My curiosity was based on the idea that a telescope on the Moon
would be easier to maintain once installed(no shuttle required),
less susceptible to damage from space debris (since the Moon
would partially shield the scope), and the light pollution from
the Earth would not be a factor (keeping in mind that darkness
would not be constant, but that when it was dark, it would be a
much darker dark).

Communications might be the remaining obstacle. Odd that we
still need line of sight to communicate effectively...with all
the advances in the last few decades. A more helpful alien
visitor might drop off some material on that one.

Thanks again for filling in a few gaps!


Kyle






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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:38:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:31:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rudiak


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:14:19 +0100
>Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:08:28 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:59:04 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>He claims to take seriously the
>>demonstrably pseudoscientific pelican "explanation" for the
>>Arnold sighting (search the Archive) - the very one that led me
>>to coin the phrase.*

>A number of people argued against the pelican theory at some
>length, so they presumably took it seriously.

Giggle. No, people like me argued against it not because we took
it seriously, but because people like Harney took it seriously
and were proclaiming it the ultimate solution to the Arnold
case.

>Its chief weakness
>seems to be that it supposes that Arnold's estimates of speeds
>and distances were highly inaccurate.

No, it's chief weakness was that it was scientifically
impossible. Pelicans can't outfly a plane on a parallel course.
This has nothing to do with Arnold's estimates of speed or
distance. Even if Easton's "pelicans" were right outside
Arnold's window, they couldn't move _forward_ of Arnold's
position and finally disappear in the distance _ahead_ of his
plane because, duhhh, pelicans can't outfly a plane.

>This does not, however,
>make it "demonstrably pseudoscientific", as "pseudoscientific"
>does not mean the same as "unacceptable to credulous UFO
>enthusiasts".

It certainly does make it "demonstrably pseudoscientific" if not
downright idiotic, not that Harney seems to care.

>>*A pelicanist is "one who proposes hard-to-believe solutions to
>>puzzling UFO sightings" - Strange Skies, p. 35.

>Note - not "irrational" or "plainly false", but "hard-to-
>believe". It doesn't matter if it's the true answer or not, if
>you don't like it, the proposer of it is a "pelicanist".

A pelican outflying a plane is indeed clearly "irrational" and
"plainly false," hence "hard-to-believe." What more does anyone
with any brains need to dismiss it?

Since Harney seems to take offense at the term "pelicanist,"
substitute "idiot," "fool," "dim bulb," or any other old-
fashioned term that means someone who's low level of
intelligence and/or obstinate personality and/or psychological
denial does not allow them to see that they are spouting patent
nonsense.


David Rudiak





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   Aug > Aug 25

                    Vallee On Physics Of High Strangeness

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:35:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:53:08 -0400
Subject: Vallee On Physics Of High Strangeness


http://www.nidsci.org/pdf/vallee_davis.pdf

also

http://www.nidsci.org/pdf/vallee_davis_ppt.pdf

Abstract

The main argument presented in this paper is that continuing
study of unidentified aerial phenomena ("UAP"), including
"apparitions" of a religious or spiritual nature, may offer an
existence theorem for new models of physical reality. The
current SETI paradigm and its "assumption of mediocrity" place
restrictions on forms of non- human intelligence that may be
researched in our environment. A similar bias exists in the
ufologists' often-stated hypothesis that UAP, if real, must
represent space visitors. Observing that both models are biased
by anthropomorphism, the authors attempt to clarify the issues
surrounding "high strangeness" observations by  distinguishing
six layers of information that can be derived from anomalous
events, namely (1) physical manifestations, (2) antiphysical
effects, (3) psychological factors, (4) physiological factors,
(5) psychic effects and (6) cultural effects. In a further step
they propose a framework for scientific analysis of unidentified
phenomena that takes into account the incommensurability
problem.



Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html





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               Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:01:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:54:15 -0400
Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:21:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:56:38 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

>>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:25:13 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

>><snip>

>>><tongue_in_cheek>

>>>Actually what happened is one chance out of a googolplex of
>>>chances.

>>>The UFO was chasing the comet in order to refuel but during the
>>>energy exchange a Siberian bigfoot farted and the sudden and
>>>unexpected addition of methane into the process acted as
>>>catalyst for the explosion. <tongue_in_cheek>

>>I have read some funny stuff here, but that's the funniest
>>one... yeti! ;o)

>...A real knee slapper? Or another thing you're not sure about,
>Mr. King. It might be you're a little too quick to laugh about,
>well... anything.

>alienview.nul

Mr. Lehmberg,

Were the scenario Terry described played out before me, I'd be
hard pressed to deny the truth of it, but I'd be laughing my ass
off the entire time...until I was vaporized in the resulting
cataclysm.

I usually do not laugh quickly enough. I have to remind myself
constantly not to take things too seriously.


Kyle







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                      Skeptic Blackmore Calls It Quits?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:22:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:55:58 -0400
Subject: Skeptic Blackmore Calls It Quits?


http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/anomalistics/skeptic_research.htm

I'm sure most of you saw this from the website from the Edgar
Mitchell post.

At least Susan Blackmore has the integrity to say what's what
from her perspective.


Best,

Greg







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                      Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:39:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:03:12 -0400
Subject: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary



Source: The Daily Times

http://www.daily-times.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=3D484#=3D=
13519

08-22-04


Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

By Debra Mayeux
The Daily Times

AZTEC -- As research continues into the infamous, yet unproven
Aztec UFO crash of 1948, a Canadian film company has released
the first full-length documentary about the event.

The Aztec Public Library, sponsor of the annual Aztec UFO
Symposium, recently received a copy and plans to premiere it at
7 p.m. Thursday at Aztec City Hall.

"This video elevates the story to a national level of
discussion," said Leanne Hathcock, librarian and founder of the
symposium.

It was her research, along with the help of North Carolina
resident Scott Ramsey, that led to a renaissance of interest in
the purported crash in March 1948 in Hart Canyon north of Aztec.

Ramsey has completed countless hours of research and
successfully declassified material pertinent to the incident.

"We're working very hard in trying to identify two law
enforcement officers at the scene, and at the same time trying
to be respectful to the families," Ramsey said.

New Mexico and UFOs have become synonymous since the surging
popularity of the Roswell crash in July 1947, but Aztec is
coming into its own, according to Hathcock and Ramsey.

"I think the documentary puts Aztec in a positive light," Ramsey
said.

City Commissioner Jim Rubow agreed, saying the film was well
done.

"I thought it was fairly open minded," he said. "They did a good
job of integrating local history giving (the story) a better
understanding of anything I've seen to date."

The film begins with a view of San Juan County's high desert
landscape and film producer Paul Kimball telling the story of
Aztec.

It was a quiet evening north of the county seat, when an oil
well fire broke out on a mesa above Hart Canyon. The fire led
people to something much more interesting =97 a crashed UFO
containing charred bodies, Kimball tells in the story Ramsey
continually attempts to verify.

It has been the researchers desire to locate all living
eyewitnesses, but Ramsey said he has missed many due to their
untimely deaths.

He has spoken to a number of people in Cuba about a former
resident who may have been at the crash site. He learned from
them that in March 1948, the Air Force paid that small town a
visit.

Dr. Lincoln La Paz and a high-ranking military official came to
Cuba to investigate strange sightings, Ramsey said.

"At the end of a few days of investigation, La Paz wrote it off
as meteor showers, including rock samples that he tried to pawn
off on locals as meteorites," Ramsey said.

The researcher, who is most prominent in the documentary,
believes this incident might be tied to Aztec.

This information will not be found on the video because it was
only recently discovered.

What viewers will see is a potpourri of ufologists including
Stanton Friedman and Nick Redfern and skeptics like Karl Pflock.

Ramsey, however, is the center of attention, having done most of
the updated research on Aztec.

"He was going on the paper trail and the evidence," Hathcock
said, adding Kimball used "talking heads" to tell the story to
provide a basis for credibility.

"I feel like it was well done," she said.

"(Kimball) is a purist when it comes to doing a documentary,"
Ramsey said. "It has to be based on as much fact as possible."

The facts are played out with scenery and "Dick Tracy" graphics
for an enjoyable yet informative film that will soon be for sale
with all profits benefiting the Aztec Public Library.










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   Aug > Aug 25

                  Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 01:55:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:07:08 -0400
Subject: Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo - Myers


>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:04:39 -0700
>Subject: Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo

>>From: Victoria Jack <isis777.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:44:12 -0700
>>Subject: Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo

>>[Non-Subscriber Post]

>>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:06:02 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo

>>>>From: Victoria Jack <isis777.nul>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:47:28 -0400
>>>>Subject: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo

>>>>********************************************

>>>>THE BAY AREA UFO EXPO
>>>>2351 Alexis Lane ~ Tracy, CA 95377

>>>>For Immediate Release...

>>>>THE BAY AREA UFO EXPO

>>>>August 28-29 2004

>>>>Westin Santa Clara
>>>>5100 Great America Parkway
>>>>Santa Clara, CA 95051

>>>>You've seen "Taken" and "The 4,400" on television. You've
>>>>experienced the awe and wonder of films like "Close Encounters"
>>>>and "Contact." Now get ready for the reality and truth behind
>>>>these amazing stories.

>>><snip>

>>>>Also presenting this year are William Henry, James Gilliland
>>>>Lloyd Pye, Jaime Maussan, Richard Dolan, Michael Horn, Tricia
>>>>McCannon and many more! Our special guests include George Noory
>>>>of Coast To Coast AM, The Sci-Fi Channel, Bill Birnes of UFO
>>>>Magazine and Sean David Morton.

>>>Sean David Morton associated with "truth" and "reality"... now
>>>there's a laugh. Sad to see some are still willing to promote
>>>this phony...

>>Sean David Morton is not speaking at the Expo this year, he's
>>only coming down to visit and to introduce George Noory.

>>You hit me pretty hard in 9/11; I couldn't cancel the
>>conference. If you would ever like to come down for yourself
>>and check things out, I'd be glad to have you as a guest.

>Thanks for your response. This is the first time someone
>associated with a conference has actually taken the time to
>respond, aside from some idiot telling me through third parties
>that my time should be spent doing something else or someone
>accusing me of being some government disinformation operative or
>some other nonsense.

>For those unfamiliar with what Victoria is referring to
>regarding 9/11, this was a commentary I wrote when people
>started hawking 'the truth' about 9/11 before the smoke from the
>WTC had even cleared, which I thought of as nothing less than
>utterly shameless and smacking of double dipping for dollars.

>http://www.ufowatchdog.com/shameless.html

>Now that I have a promoter right here, I'd like to ask you a few
>questions.....

>Victoria, you said two things: You couldn't cancel the
>conference in 2001 and that Morton isn't a presenter and is
>"only coming down to visit and to introduce George Noory."

>First, I'm not completely sure why you brought up being unable
>to cancel the conference. Would you clarify what you meant by
>that? And if you're talking about me hitting "pretty hard in
>9/11" in reference to my commentary, the people that were
>selling the blood from 9/11 were more than deserving of that
>commentary and the outrage over the antics taking place at that
>time.

>Secondly, why do conferences continually play host to known
>charlatans, seeming to endorse the veracity of claims made by
>known UFO idiots by continually associating their names with
>'reality' and that catch-all 'the truth'? Why not cast a more
>discerning eye on speakers and attempt to host the most credible
>presenters?

<snip>

>I'm sure you're aware of Morton's failed lawsuit against me and
>my website. His baseless libel case was tossed out when he
>couldn't prove any of his claims when it came time to present
>evidence in court. When I hear his name associated with anything
>resembling 'reality', I can't help being both amused and
>astonished.

>http://www.ufowatchdog.com/mortonfiles.html

>However, it's a free country and free market, you can,
>obviously, do what you want at your conference and have whomever
>you choose. I just find it hard to believe that anyone having a
>serious interest in UFOs would play host to any number of UFO
>idiots out there at the cost of serious and credible Ufology.

<snip>

>Victoria, I'd like to hear your take on this. Thanks for the
>invitation to your Conference, I do sincerely appreciate it.
>I've found being regular Joe UFO conference attendee is much
>more informative.

>I await your response and appreciate your time. Thanks.


Well, I never did hear back from Victoria Jack. I guess she's
not interested in answering my questions before the Bay Area UFO
Expo takes place.


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"









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   Aug > Aug 25

                            Earl D. Jones Passes

From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:52:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:35:48 -0400
Subject: Earl D. Jones Passes


From Ohio-based investigator Ron Schaffner, 24 Aug 2004:

----

I have just been informed today that former UFO and Bigfoot
investigator, Earl D. Jones died last Saturday of cancer. He was
a Vietnam veteran. Many of you might not recognize this name, so
allow me to shed some light on the contributions that Earl
accomplished during the late 1970's and early 80's.

I met Earl in 1976 during one of the regular meetings of the
Ohio UFO Investigator's League. He had been investigating some
follow-ups to Northern Kentucky UFO reports from the great 1973
wave. His reports that were given to the group were very
detailed in every aspect. He was willing to do all the hard work
to get to the truth of any particular report.

As this time, I was the principal Bigfoot (and other strange
creature) investigator for OUFOIL. Back in the 70's there were
no real Bigfoot groups in the east. Most Bigfoot reports were
investigated by the UFO groups. Earl was very anxious to get
involved with this research too. After all, in theory, it should
be easier to document and obtain evidence that was ground level.

In the course of several years, Earl and I traveled all over
Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky and West Virginia investigating,
interviewing and documenting reports of that time period,
including the great flaps of 1977, 1978 and 1980.

Earl was  very instrumental in the investigations of several
high profile cases of that time.

See:

http://home.fuse.net/rschaffner/henschen.htm

http://home.fuse.net/rschaffner/richland.htm

http://home.fuse.net/rschaffner/minerva.htm

http://home.fuse.net/rschaffner/kentucky.htm

http://home.fuse.net/rschaffner/vinton.htm

http://home.fuse.net/rschaffner/bigdog.htm

http://home.fuse.net/rschaffner/fouke.htm

In my opinion, Earl was one of the best trackers I ever knew. He
had a natural instinct on how to handle law enforcement and the
media. He was a great organizer and helped form some of the
ideas of an Ohio coalition of researchers. Earl was also a
sketch artist and was very good at drawing composites from
eyewitnesses. Some of his drawings have become very familiar
within various works - specifically, the Minerva Hominid
composite.

I can still recall the situation that occurred to us during our
departure back to Cincinnati from our second Minerva trip.
Earl's car mysterious caught on fire and we barely escaped with
our equipment before the car was engulfed in flames. Some have
said that it was not an accident, but to this day, I still think
it was a short in the electrical system

We traveled to Washington state in 1981 to get to the bottom of
the Ray Wallace fiasco that was being believed by other Ohio
folk. In our attempt to get the truth out on this and a case the
year before, Earl became frustrated with research. He still
attended a lot of UFO meetings and such, but he rapidly became
involved with other interests.

I lost track of Earl about 1990, or so and neither one of us
were in contact. Tonight, his wife, Margie called to tell me
what happened. I feel its my duty to spell out these words on my
keyboard to let the rest of the research community know of
Earl's accomplishments. I suppose its like when others leave us
that were involved with this phenomena. It gives us time to
pause and think of what we have done with our lives over the
years.

My most memorable times of my life were investigating reports of
strange phenomena with Earl and our many travels together,
whether it was by car, camping, or backpacking.

Please feel free to forward this to other individuals and
mailing lists. I encourage it.


Sincerely,

Ron Schaffner
Creature Chronicles







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   Aug > Aug 25

                         Re: Moon Questions - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:51:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:36:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Kaeser


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:29:02 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

<snip>

>My curiosity was based on the idea that a telescope on the Moon
>would be easier to maintain once installed(no shuttle required),
>less susceptible to damage from space debris (since the Moon
>would partially shield the scope), and the light pollution from
>the Earth would not be a factor (keeping in mind that darkness
>would not be constant, but that when it was dark, it would be a
>much darker dark).

>Communications might be the remaining obstacle. Odd that we
>still need line of sight to communicate effectively...with all
>the advances in the last few decades. A more helpful alien
>visitor might drop off some material on that one.

Kyle,

The idea is a good one, but probably only one piece of a larger
picture. I think a moon base to establish a presence on the moon
and begin scientific investigation is a goal that I would
certainly support. A moon based telescope would be part of that,
I'm sure, and I can imagine that many astronomers would jump at
the chance to spend a short period of time on the moon at such a
facility.

This will likely become a reality at some point, if we don't
blow our society apart first. Unfortunately, it's not likely to
occur in my lifetime.


Steve







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   Aug > Aug 25

                         Re: Moon Questions - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:49:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:45:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Shell


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:29:02 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>Communications might be the remaining obstacle. Odd that we
>still need line of sight to communicate effectively...with all
>the advances in the last few decades. A more helpful alien
>visitor might drop off some material on that one.

I have found it interesting for some time that we still don't
have a permanent satellite in lunar orbit. I don't understand
that. It's not like it wouldn't be useful. And compared to
putting something in orbit around Saturn, it would be a piece of
cake.

It makes me think of all the folks who have said our relative
lack of lunar exploration is because we have been 'warned off'.
Booo-o-o-o-o-o!







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   Aug > Aug 25

               Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:32:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:53:17 -0400
Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:40:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:31:30 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

><snip>

>>True enough. You never know for sure. No little emoticon after
>>that. And the knowing is going to continue to be postponed for
>>as long as we tolerate agencies, institutions, and governments
>>that nurture the very intellectual void we'd otherwise decry,
>>that abhorred cultural vacuum which begs to be, and is, _filled_
>>by individual rank and file persons wanting their aggregate
>>realities to make a little more sense to them. Our agencies are
>>a duplicity. Our institutions are an obfuscation. Our
>>governments are a fraud. It's not the dodgy fringe, at all. It
>>is what provokes the dodgy fringe which deserves the attention.

>Mr. Lehmberg,

>We may disagree on what constitutes the "dodgy fringe", but the
>comments on duplicity, obfuscation and fraud I accept with
>absolute sincerity. Bravo!

"[Accepted]". Remember that. .And an opener like that is a
practiced debate tactic indicating calmness and rationality and
thoughtfulness and reflectivity. A harbinger, if you will, to
suggest that all which follows... will be calm and rational and
thoughtful and reflective. Jerry Clark and Greg Sandow are
masters of that... of course... they pay off..

Anymore, I always view an opening gambit with suspicion. Once
burned and all that.....

>One question.

Ah, the rub! Just one?

>If the "not knowing will be postponed as long as
>we tolerate" said "agencies...", how best do we show a
>commensurate intolerance, and thereby accelerate the "knowing"?

In other words: how do I solve all the worlds most pressing
problems regarding intolerance and ignorance and overpopulation
and terrorism and starvation and religious fundamentalism and
the slurking sneering front people for a hijacked mainstream?
Did you want the 'short' version?

Don't even pretend to mock me, Mr. King. I've written hundreds
of explications on the subject. You can wade them at your
leisure in the archives of this list, at AlienViewGroup site,
and on other popular venues found on the internet.

>Or is there even a chance of it with said agencies' well
>entrenched status, and track record of success in duplicity,
>obfuscation and fraud?

What are you doing about it, Sir? You admit that all that exists
on the one hand and then, _and _then_ have _no_ idea what to do
about it yourself? You're trying to get me to go out on an
imagined limb. How cute. You're going to have to be a little
more sincere than that, Mr. King.

>The outcry against the regime often results in more protracted
>"nurturing of the intellectual void". To withhold said outcry is
>tacit approval, at least in a democracy. Is there an answer?

<LOL>

Who's spankin' the monkey, now?

<LOL>

Pot/Kettle, dude.

>Honestly, do you see a way to fix it? Anarchy is an option, but
>what springs up in its wake may be worse yet.

It has often happened in what little of the past we are actually
aware of, Mr. King, where tearing it all down just to groove on
the rubble was entirely appropriate... where it was entirely
appropriate. Michael Parenti has some insight on that, as does
James W. Loewen. Besides, it may be that it can't get any worse,
Sir, on the limited levels I suspect you may be considering.
There are worse things than an apocalypse over which we have no
control. There is that lack of control in itself. There is loss
of self-respect and the despair that that facilitates. There is
not _being_ respected.  You beginning to get the point?  How
much respect could you possibly have for _me_, if you expect me
to actually try to attempt an answer to a "How far is up"
question, like that which you have proffered here.

Sometimes it's just the "awareness" and some small ability to
essay on it that is enough to keep the shadows back. Like I
said, I've written on the subject. Splash around in that...

>I for one, absolutely would enjoy having my reality make more
>sense. I am not certain that the government has all the answers,
>but they likely have more to lend to the debate than has been
>made public.

That was remarkablely uncomplicated and sincere sounding, Mr.
King. A ray of light?

>Trying to find that which would make my reality make sense is
>the primary reason I read the posts here. Another reason is that
>I find enjoyment in the wide range of opinions. Access to some
>of the more highly regarded in the field is another.

Wow! I'm almost starting to warm to you! You're _good_! <LOL>

>As an aside, I address you as Mr. Lehmberg because we have never
>met, and I haven't received private correspondence which would
>clearly afford me the privilege of addressing you otherwise. As
>we have now at the very least managed to "cut a rug" together,
>would I be taking liberties to address you as Alfred?

Ummmm - no. This early in our association it may be that
familiarity turns to soon to contempt, Sir. The best we can work
toward at present, Mr. King, is to be respectfully adversarial,
I should think. It'll take a little more than a bow and a box of
candy, in any case. Do you do metaphor? Mr. Rimmer has
demonstrated a real problem with it, by way of example - also
in the Archives.


alienview.nul
EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net






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   Aug > Aug 25

               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:25:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:55:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:38:29 -0700
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:14:19 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:59:04 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>This does not, however,
>>make it "demonstrably pseudoscientific", as "pseudoscientific"
>>does not mean the same as "unacceptable to credulous UFO
>>enthusiasts".

>It certainly does make it "demonstrably pseudoscientific" if not
>downright idiotic, not that Harney seems to care.

>>>*A pelicanist is "one who proposes hard-to-believe solutions to
>>>puzzling UFO sightings" - Strange Skies, p. 35.

>>Note - not "irrational" or "plainly false", but "hard-to-
>>believe". It doesn't matter if it's the true answer or not, if
>>you don't like it, the proposer of it is a "pelicanist".

>A pelican outflying a plane is indeed clearly "irrational" and
>"plainly false," hence "hard-to-believe." What more does anyone
>with any brains need to dismiss it?

>Since Harney seems to take offense at the term "pelicanist,"
>substitute "idiot," "fool," "dim bulb," or any other old-
>fashioned term that means someone whose low level of
>intelligence and/or obstinate personality and/or psychological
>denial does not allow them to see that they are spouting patent
>nonsense.


David,

I think this exchange nicely underscores the essential frivolity
of pelicanism - er, excuse me, the "psychosocial hypothesis".

Like the joke about the old Seinfeld television series (which at
least was entertaining and not meant to be taken seriously), it
is about nothing.  Pelicanists are always best off when they're
flapping their wings, not involving themselves in discussions of
actual substance, such as the puzzling sightings that comprise
the core of the UFO problem.


Jerry Clark







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   Aug > Aug 26

                           Filers Files #36 - 2004

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:47:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:57:20 -0400
Subject: Filers Files #36 - 2004


Filers Files #36 =96 2004, Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern
Vice President of Skywatch International
August 26, 2004
Webmaster: Chuck Warren


Is ET Underground?

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space. These Files make the assumption that
extraterrestrial intelligent life exists. Mars Fossils,
Vegetation and life, Theory Says Oil Reserves Bigger Than
Expected -- And E.T. Might Live Underground, Connecticut =96 Disk,
New York - Sphere UFO, New Jersey =96 Loud Noises in the Sky,
Pennsylvania =96 Five Lights in a Row, Michigan =96 Flying Triangle,
Ohio - Underground UFO Interference, Illinois =96 Flash, Alabama =96
Flying Triangle, Texas =96 Egg, Arizona =96 Cigar, Nevada - Objects
Light Show, California =96 Silver Cylinder Turns Into Black
Saucer, Oregon - Seven Fast Moving Lights, Washington - Orange
Object, Canada =96 Disk, Panama =96 Cylinder, Brazil - Man Snaps a
UFO UK/England - Silver Oval, Portugal =96 Oval, Indonesia to
Japan - Morphing Oval Object, and Australia film.

Mars Fossils, Vegetation and Life

A group of scientists, engineers and former intelligence
officers familiar with image analysis who are working with the
Filer Research Institute and have found strong indications of
life of Mars. For years we have seen evidence of water on Mars
that includes geysers and liquid water. This water can be seen
in the wet tracks of both Mars Rovers as far back as the Viking
1976 landings. Dr. Gilbert Levin and Dr. Patricia Straat who
was at the time were working for NASA devised tests to indicate
microbiological life. These tests called Labeled Release
experiments were positive indicating life on Mars, but the
scientific findings were ridiculed and explained as a chemical
reaction because there was no water on Mars for life. A
national debunking campaign against the realization that life
exists in space as been going on since at least 1953.
 Scientists, military, and the news media have all been
ridiculed if they speak of life outside Earth. This ridicule is
starting to fold based on the weight of evidence and the courage
of a few people such as astronaut Edgar Mitchell and other key
scientists.

Dampness in soil shown in JPL Rover image.

Spirit and Opportunity find identical spherules - same markings

Yesterday, I spoke with Sir Charles W. Shults III of Xenotech
Research who has found numerous fossils in the Mar's Rover
images. He is convinced that Mars was once covered by oceans and
lakes with live marine organisms. He has found numerous marine
fossils that include sharks teeth, squid, fish heads, Trilobite
fossils, and sea urchins. His findings collaborate our own. He
feels that all types of marine life once existed on Mars. Also
clouds are in Mars skies and large amounts of water are in the
soil within a meter of the surface, and that reservoirs of water
and ice extend perhaps a kilometer deep in the soil. See his
great website at:

http://www.xenotechresearch.com/marsindx.htm.

The Mars Global Surveyor satellite has found intricately
branched formations of tree-like vegetation of radial symmetry
and tremendous size. These appear as gigantic living organisms,
sprawling hundreds of meters in every direction. They may be a
type of tree or ground vegetation that grow to an astounding
thousand yards in diameter. The author Arthur Clarke has been
shown these photos and agrees they represent life. Indeed they
are nicknamed Clarke's Trees and are mainly located at between
about 60 and 82 degrees latitudes south.

Each year for over a hundred years astronomers have recorded the
annual greening of the landscape on Mars. Despite constant
statements to the contrary, the actual surface of Mars in the
warmer months reaches surface temperatures comparable to Earth
such as 80 to 90 degrees Fahrenheit. Each year, Mars as
recurring Dark Dune Spots that are believed to represent living
organisms. In early spring the dark spots can barely be seen and
are a light gray. By late spring they have turned dark
indicating growth. A Hungarian team of Gunti Horvath and others
have proposed a very plausible mechanism for the growth of
colonies of living organisms. During spring water melts, or
water vapor is carried to the warming surface to encourage the
growth of the living organisms. It is difficult to explain the
apparent growth by any chemical or geological reactions.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2003/pdf/1134.pdf

It is apparently politically forbidden for NASA to admit the
presence of life in space. I for one have been directed by
London Control to intercept a UFO and observed it on our
airborne radar.

I request that NASA give up the charade that there is no life in
space, based on their own recent photographs taken by their
rovers, the "Spirit" in Gusev crater and "Opportunity" on
Meridiani Planum.

Asteroid shaves past Earth's atmosphere

NewScientist.com news service reports 23 August 04 The closest
observed asteroid yet to skim past the Earth without hitting the
atmosphere, was reported by astronomers on Sunday. The
previously unknown object, spanning five to ten meters across,
has been named 2004 FU162. It streaked across the sky just 6500
kilometers - roughly the radius of the Earth - above the ground
on 31 March 2994. The MIT Lincoln Laboratory's asteroid-hunting
LINEAR telescope in Socorro, New Mexico, US, observed the object
four times over a 44-minute period, several hours before its
closest approach in March. Lincoln astronomers, who have
discovered over 40,000 asteroids and comets since 1980, quickly
recognized the object came exceptionally close.

Despite having only four positions for the object, Steven
Chesley of NASA=92s Jet Propulsion Laboratory was able to
calculate its orbit because it was moving rapidly across the
sky.

The Minor Planet Center published Chesley=92s results on Sunday in
its electronic circular. "This was an extraordinarily close
encounter and so the orbital change was quite extraordinary.
2004 FU162 was deflected by about 20 degrees because of the
Earth's gravity. I've never seen anything like that before,"
Chesley told

The asteroid was around 30 meters in diameter - big enough to
produce a one-megaton explosion in the atmosphere. Thanks to
Skywatch-International Web Site http://www.skywatch-
international.org/

Theory Oil Reserves Bigger Than Expected - E.T. Might Live
Underground

Cornell University Professor Thomas Gold says oil is purely
geological, not biological, in origin; and life probably started
underground, so look there for ET. It's not exactly a theory of
everything, but in his book, "The Deep Hot Biosphere"
(Copernicus/Springer-Verlag, $27), Cornell University Professor
emeritus of astronomy Thomas Gold says that life on earth
probably started deep underground, where it still exists in
profusion and that therefore is would be reasonable to look for
life on other planets underground as well, even if those planets
look quite inhospitable on the surface. The basic idea that a
large amount of microbial life exists in the pore spaces of the
rocks down to depths of between 6 and 10 kilometers and arose in
the following way. Natural petroleum almost always contains
elevated levels of helium and also contains molecules that are
unquestionably of biological origin. The evidence that a deep
biosphere exists has now been strongly supported by microbial
studies in deep bore holes. Drilling deep into the crystalline
granite of Sweden between 1986 and 1993 revealed substantial
amounts of natural gas and oil. 80 barrels of oil were pumped up
from a depth between 5.2 km and 6.7 km.

Mars, like the Earth, will have internal heat sources, and
temperatures will be increasing with depth. Water is so common
on planetary bodies that it seems almost certain it will be
present in large quantity on Mars, and there must then be a
depth range in which it is liquid. If the surface temperature
has decreased over geologic times, the depth range of liquid
water would have moved a little lower. The surface itself and a
thin layer below are cold, so that any water coming up from
deeper levels would generally not spill over the surface, but
freeze in the rocks.

Another big idea for Gold is that oil and natural gas, generally
regarded as products derived from ancient biology, are
hydrocarbon substances created geologically in the early stages
of earth's formation. As such, they began very deep and
gravitated toward the surface, rather than the other way around.
And there should be enormous undiscovered oil reserves buried
very deep, he says. Gold was the founding director of Cornell's
Center for Radiophysics and Space Research for two decades.

These "bugs," actually archae bacteria, thrive in intense heat
and pressure deep underground, without any light -- that is, in
a truly alien environment within planet earth. There's no reason
to doubt that such critters could exist on many other planets as
well, perhaps including Mars and some of the moons of Jupiter
and Saturn. Oil contains lots of bacteria because they eat the
stuff, not because they make it, Gold says.
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/tg21/


Connecticut - Disk

WINSTED =96 The observer walks his dogs every morning at 4 AM, and
on August 10, 2004, he noticed a star like object flying low
over Main Street that had slow moving back and forth motion. He
states, "The object got my attention when it hovered for a short
time, then took off straight up without making any noise and its
shape was a disk." The sun was just rising and I could see its
outline against the sky line about 1000 feet in altitude. Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/


New York - Sphere UFO

EAST WILLISTON -- There was a bright light in the sky that was
hovering over Long Island at 3 AM, on August 8, 2004. He got
his video camera that was mounted on a tripod and began to video
tape with his 360 X zoom lens. He states, "What I saw was
amazing; it was round and appeared to have the landscape of a
planet." There was a green corona around the outer edge of the
circle with a black band that went across the circle
horizontally. The object appeared to be pulsating. I checked
astronomy website with planets and determined this was no
planet? Thanks to Peter Davenport

BROOKLYN =96 The witness just brought a brand new Nikon D70 camera
with a 400 mm lens - and started taking images on the boardwalk
of Brighton Beach on August 7, 2004, at 1:30 PM. He was
photographing the sea, sand, sky, and birds filling up the
memory card with a lot of practice shots. He went home and
transferred all his images to the computer. My Dad noticed a
speck at the upper right portion of a shot if a bird flying over
the sea. He reports, "I zoomed in on the day time image, and my
hair stood up because it wasn't a bird or a star." Later on
during the day, I went to soccer practice with my Dad and again
we saw something white in the sky, that was very mysterious.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

New Jersey =96 Loud Noises in the Sky

GALLOWAY =96 The witness was awakened at 3:49 AM, from a deep
sleep by a loud noise approaching her home on August 5, 2004.
 As the noise grew nearer the witness states, " I tried to get
up and couldn't at first, although I was conscious I couldn't
get up." Finally, I was able to go to the window and could only
see clouds overhead, but the sound was oscillating, a roaring
noise hovering very near. By now my husband was awake and he
heard it too. We live near an air force base and a public
airport so I hear planes regularly but not like this. The object
hovered overhead for quite a while. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

Pennsylvania =96 Five Lights in a Row

YORK -- At 4:30 AM, on August 8, 2004, the observer got up to
get some water and noticed a very bright light high up in the
southeastern sky, which was much larger and brighter than any
star or planet. He grabbed the binoculars and saw off in the
distance five horizontal lights very close to one another,
totally stationery. I got my wife out of bed. He states, "By the
time she came to the kitchen, it had moved further away and at a
slightly different angle, making it impossible to see it as five
lights. "Rather, by this time it was just one bright light." I
called 911 and three policemen came to the house. They saw the
light in the sky, which I photographed by the time they arrived.
Again, it had moved further away but was still clearly visible.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/

Michigan =96 Flying Triangle

GLADSTONE =96 On August 5, 2004, the observer saw a round fuzzy
light through his binoculars at 1 AM. He states, "I have
reported these before but I got a good look at them through
20x50 binoculars tonight." From a distance they look like bright
circles with a halo around them, but tonight I saw two within 5
minutes of each other." One was far too fast to see. The second,
I caught for about 5 seconds through the binoculars. It came
from the south fast and was sort of triangular shaped which
surprised me. It was almost like a glowing paper airplane with
pointed up wings. I finally lost it as it manoeuvered and finally
disappeared. My neighbors are seeing them also. One of my
neighbors is in search and rescue and has served in the Navy for
12 years and never saw anything at sea or out like this. I love
tracking satellites and have loved astronomy since I was a boy
and cannot explain these things in the night sky. I will keep
watching. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/

Ohio - Underground UFO Interference

FOSTORIA -- George Ritter has been able to take video of UFOs
near his home on a regular basis. The video taken on August 22,
2004, shows a UFO over a nearby farmer's field. Many of the
videos appear to show the craft entering and leaving the field.
 The Fostoria area is known to have many underground caverns
that could provide a base for these craft. The electrical
interference is apparent in the image. Often when UFOs are
present there are interruptions of electrical service and
television interference. The field is now under development for
new homes. Thanks to George Ritter.


Illinois - Flash

LAKE ZURICH =96 There was a sudden extraordinary occurrence in the
sky on August 9, 2004, about 17 miles north of Chicago's O'Hare
Airport. The witness a former accountant was walking his dog at
11:15 PM, and looked towards the Big Dipper when a bright white
light flashed across the sky in front of him. This ball and
streak was traveling south horizontal to the ground towards
O'Hare Airport, at a speed calculated at a speed of 18,000 mph
at less than 5,000 feet, possibly under 1,000 feet about 5 to 10
miles away. The streak or tail was two or three miles long. In
summary, this occurrence was like seeing a shooting star,
traveling low and horizontally, at an incredible speed. Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director

HIGHLAND/POKAHONTAS -- On August 8, 2004, at 3 AM, the witness
was returning from my friends house when a white object paced
his car on Interstate 70 between Highland and Pokahontas,
Illinois. He states, "I caught sight of this object to my right
(southeast) as I reached the speed limit. I rolled down the
passenger window to make sure I wasn't seeing a reflection or
distortion in the glass. It looked the same. The object was
illuminated in white light although it was somewhat dimmer than
the full moon would be. It looked like a round tube standing on
its edge straight up and down. Like the core of a paper towel
roll. Except this one had a ring that circled the entire object
like rings of Saturn. The whole object was as big as a penny
held at arm's length away and hovered 25 to 30 degrees off of
the horizon. As I drove it seemed to float a little higher and
lower in the sky, but kept pace. I had my little camera with me
so I decided to pull off to try to get a picture. But it faded
from view. I had my police scanner on, but no one I heard
reported anything. It was like a towel core on its edge with
Saturn's rings around it." Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/


Alabama =96 Flying Triangle

HOOVER/BLUFF PARK =96 A father and his daughter were driving back
from fueling up her car, when they saw red and white lights
through the tops of the trees on August 10, 2004, at 9:23 PM.
When they came to a stop sign and a clearing, they saw a
strange-looking craft flying northeast not too high up in the
sky. It was composed of four white lights and two red lights,
none of which were flashing, and it was traveling quite fast. It
was triangular in shape with one white light at the forward
point, three white lights in a row behind it, and the two red
lights at the opposite back corners. There were no green lights
and no 'headlights' that we frequently see on aircraft landing
at this time of night. At arm's length, it was about one inch
long and at about 1,000 feet altitude. It was really close, to
me, closer than aircraft usually fly. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director http://www.ufocenter.com/


Texas - Egg

ARLINGTON =96 A dark object with a glowing green-yellow light was
seen on August 10, 2004, at 11:55 PM, by two friends. The
witness reports, "I just saw the weirdest thing I have seen
since the big meteor a month ago." My friend and I witnessed an
object flying across the sky unlike any aircraft I have ever
seen. It was a dark oblong shape. The large part looked like a
shadow almost. It was colorless but slightly darker than the
sky. It had a greenish yellow glowing object suspended just
beneath the large object. I thought at first that it might be a
balloon and glow stick, but the object was traveling against the
wind at a steady rapid pace. It made no sound. It looked to be
pretty large and traveled west at least 1000 feet. We watched it
for a good while, until it disappeared in the distance. It was
freaky, but very cool. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/

Arizona - Cigar

MESA =96 The witness reports, "I was turning from Baseline onto
Hawes Road going southbound on August 9, 2004, at 12:40 AM, when
I saw a bright reddish orange blimp looking object." It was very
bright, but then became a small light then back to a large shape
then it disappeared. I looked over and another car was also
stopped in the middle of the road watching as well." Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/


Nevada - Objects Light Show

SPARKS -- At 9 PM, it started as a small white light blip in the
sky, north of the city on August 5, 2004. and as it came closer,
the lights changed color and started to splinter off into
different pieces, going in different directions. The night sky
gave a good background for the many colors. The witness states,
"We looked through a telescope at these objects as they flew in
many different directions, and found that they were actually
huge round objects with lights going off and on all the way
around them." This show lasted approximately two hours. Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director

RENO =96 The observer was walking his dog at 10:08 PM, on August
5, 2004, when he saw a huge craft with two red lights flying
over Eastern Reno not far from some commercial planes flying
near Reno Tahoe Airport. Coming from the Northwest was a strange
craft with two reddish blinking lights seemingly connected, but
at a distance that would fit between four commercial planes. I
think I could make out dim stars between the lights, but I'm not
sure. It covered the sky at a lazy speed. One commercial jet was
at about 7,000 feet moving in for the landing loop they do from
the south, and the jet was moving faster. I watched for several
minutes, and stood outside my house watching as it disappeared
over the Virginia Mountain Range. There was a pair of blinking
aircraft-style lights, but very erratic in the flashing. I held
my hand up and the distance between the lights was about four
fingers wide too big for any one aircraft. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/


California =96 Silver Cylinder Turns Into Black Saucer

PAUMA =96 On August 3, 2004, the witness was driving northeast on
Highway 76, at 5:30 PM, when he saw a silver cylinder shaped
object flying straight down, then level off, changing colors and
shape. The silver cylinder changed into a black saucer shape
craft, and sped off at a very high rate of speed climbing to
about four thousand feet. It was lower than the tops of the
Mount Polimar when just vanished over the horizon. Thanks to
Peter Davenport http://www.ufocenter.com/

MODESTO -- R. David Anderson took this picture a few nights ago
August 20, 2004. He states, "I noticed a flash of light to the
south of Vega at about 9:45 PM. I aimed the camera at the place
where I saw the flash and I got this unusual object in the shot
I took. The five points of light seem to all belong to one UFO.
Also, I started a new web site if you would like to post the
link so your readers can access it: www.ufobase.net


Oregon - Seven Fast Moving Lights

PORTLAND =96 Around 1 AM, on August 9, 2004, the witness was
sitting outside smoking a cigarette when a small flash of light
in the sky caught his eye. He states, "I looked at the white
lights about seven in all as they moved in a V pattern to the
west without any wing tip or signal." It moved forward then
right without stopping. The lights then began going out as if
the object had some thickness. The object was very dark or black
in the dark sky. This incident only took a few seconds and the
object moved very fast. My only explanation would be a B2 bomber
with landing lights on; but I just can=92t explain the turn.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/


Washington - Orange Object

SHELTON -- On August 8, 2004, a bright orange object was noticed
flying very rapidly to the southwest, at 11:30 PM. The object
had no tail and was too fast to be meteorite. It was faster than
anything I have ever seen, and was heading slightly southwest of
our house. It didn't leave a trail like a meteorite would and it
didn't fade out or disappear...it just shot into and out of
sight very rapidly without any stopping or direction change.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director http://www.ufocenter.com/


Canada - Disk

RIDING MOUNTAIN, Manitoba -- An object was seen in the sky to
the southeast corner of the Riding Mountain National Park on
August 11, 2004, at 1 PM. It was moving up and down and back and
forth with blue lights around it with a red light on top. We
watched it for about an hour and then went to bed. It darted
back and forth in a small area for two hours. Thanks to Brian
Vike http://www.hbccufo.com/


Panama - Cylinder

My sister was trying to video tape long strikes of lightning in
the evening sky at 9 PM after she had noticed a lot of silent
thunder on August 5, 2004. As she filmed a flying object flew
right across her video screen clear as day? It's an incredible
video how do I send it to you? It's a cylinder shaped ship that
is not an normal aircraft. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/


Brazil - Man Snaps a UFO

SAO PAULO -- On Tuesday, August 3, 2004, "three men were driving
on the Anhanguera Highway" in Brazil's state of Sao Paulo, when
they saw something unusual over a field. They stopped the car,
and two of the men jumped over a fence to get a little closer.
One man had a modern cell phone with him, and took a photo of a
strange, cylinder-like, silver object hovering a few meters
above the ground. Under the object some dust could be seen
lifting into the air. It remained hovering for 30 minutes and
emitted a sound like several engines working together. Thanks to
Revista UFO for August 2004.


UK/England - Silver Oval

HAMPSHIRE =96 At 10 PM, the witness was outside feeding goat's on
August 5, 2004, when he looked up and saw a long thin white
object passing slowly overhead. This object was at an altitude
of about 14 -15 thousand feet and heading in a northerly
direction. The object did not make any noise. At one point the
sun caught the side of the object, which made it shine but there
where no light's on it. This object was not a bird, comet,
balloon, helicopter, hot air balloon, flare, fire-work, or
satellite. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/


Portugal - Oval

MADEIRA =96 On August 8, 2004, the witness noticed an aircraft and
nearby was a really strange object at 12:43 PM. Although the
commercial aircraft made noise the strange object did not make
any noise. The strange oval had three white lights and a little
red one too. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/

Indonesia to Japan - Morphing Glowing Orange Oval Object

JAKARTA-TOKYO =96 The witness reports, "Shortly after take-off I
was looking at the on-board movie screen which was showing live
footage of the clear night sky in front of the plane on August
7, 2004, at 12:30 AM." I could see stars and a small `moon` with
kind of orange glow around it. I continued to look at it when to
my astonishment this shape began to move across the screen in
such a way that it was clearly not the moon or a star. For two
minutes, I watched it as it moved across the screen in an S-
shape and occasionally disappeared from view only to reappear in
a different place. Because of this it could have been possible I
was witnessing more than one UFO. I am a 28 year old male and I
am writing this report because there is no rational explanation
for what I saw. All other passengers appeared to be asleep when
this happened. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
http://www.ufocenter.com/


Australia - UFO Triangle Formation

MELBOURNE - Phenomena Research Australia reports that on August
23, 2004, Two large formations of light were captured on video
from a location near Pascoe Vale. The objects were in two groups
of three lights and each group was in a triangle formation. The
video was taken by Mark and Janine Blease of Melbourne and shown
on Channel 7 TV.

A check of Melbourne Air Traffic Control, show no aircraft at
that location or in formation at that time and no radar contact
was reported. This morning on the Breakfast Show - Radio station
3 AW Melbourne, spoke to the couple who took the video and they
said it was quite a surprise and very spectacular, offering no
explanation. Other people called the radio station and some did
come onto the "talk back" line to support the sighting. Thanks
to John Auchettl - Director Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170 and Skywatch-International.

To Become A Member Of Skywatch-International, Click Below
http://www.skywatch-
international.org/skywatch_membership_application.pdf


Another Investigator Is Being Persecuted

David E. Twitchill writes, "Once again a seeker of the truth,
involving the UFO/abduction phenomenon, is being persecuted for
coming forward.  Dr. Michael Salla, Phd of American University
in Washington DC is being censured and threatened with possible
dismissal from his position researcher-in-residence as a result
of his scholarly investigations into the possibility of an alien
presence in our world. Dr. Salla has been investigating the UFO
phenomenon for years and has written a book entitled
"Geopolitics: Political Implications of the Extraterrestrial
Presence."

Dr. Michael E. Salla, is a pioneer in the development of
geopolitics, the scholarly study of the political implications
of the extraterrestrial presence that is not acknowledged to the
general public, elected officials or the mass media. His
interest in geopolitics evolved out of his investigation of the
sources of international conflict and its relationship with the
undisclosed extraterrestrial presence. He cites evidence of as
many as sixteen different extraterrestrial races currently
interacting with humanity. He is the author of Geopolitics:
Political Implications of the Extraterrestrial Presence
(Dandelion Books, 2004).

Dr. Salla is an internationally recognized scholar in
international politics, conflict resolution and US foreign
policy, and is the author/editor of an additional four books
including The Hero's Journey Toward a Second American Century
(Greenwood Press, 2002. Dr. Salla has held academic appointments
in the School of International Service, American University,
Washington DC (1996-2001), and the Department of Political
Science, Australian National University, Canberra, Australia
(1994-96). He is currently a Researcher in Residence in the
Center for Global Peace, American University (2001-2004). He has
a Phd in Government from the University of Queensland,
Australia.

Harvard University Psychiatrist, Dr. John Mack, faced similar
persecution a few years ago when he published his book on
alleged alien abduction cases. Dr. Mack was a skeptic who dared
to look at the evidence and, as a direct result, became a
believer but still enjoys his position at Harvard.

In 1999 the "COMETA Report" was published in France entitled,
UFOs and Defense: What must we be prepared for? This ninety page
report is the result of an in-depth study of UFOs, covering many
aspects of the subject, especially questions of national
defense. The study was carried out over several years by an
independent group of former "auditors" at the Institute of
Advanced Studies for National Defense (IHEDN) and by qualified
experts from various fields. Before its public release, it had
been sent to French President Jacques Chirac and to Prime
Minister Lionel Jospin. They concluded that at least five
percent of reported cases defied a prosaic explanation. After
citing several of these cases and the method of their
investigation, the committee concluded that the phenomenon is
"real and not imaginary and that they were most likely of
extraterrestrial origin." .

Presidents Carter and Reagan have reported their own personal
UFO sightings.

The Disclosure Project, a group of 500 high ranking military,
government and corporate officials, are now coming forward with
insider information to expose the truth embargo on the
phenomenon by admitting to their role in covert operations
involving UFOs and their occupants and seeking open
Congressional hearings. Dr. Salla is man of impeccable
credentials whose loss would be sorely felt by the University
and the world. His employment may be terminated but his work in
this field will not be abated nor stifled. The truth ultimately
comes to light. The purpose of an institution of higher learning
is not only to expound upon yesterday's assumptions but also to
explore the possibilities of tomorrow's truths . . .regardless
of their controversial nature.

If the reader agrees, I would urge you to write or email the
principles bellow and "respectfully" urge them to reconsider
their position in the matter of Dr. Salla. At his website:

http://www.exopolitics.org/Wash-Post-Ike%20and%20ETs.htm

Thanks to David E. Twichell

Prof Benjamin Ladner, President,
American University,
4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW
Washington DC 20016
Email: ladner.nul

Prof Abdul Aziz Said
Director, Center for Global Peace,
American University
3201 New Mexico Ave., NW,
Suite 350,
Washington DC 20016:
asaid.nul, Ph: 202 885 1632

Prof Ivy Broder
Dean of Academic Affairs
4400 Massachusetts Ave., NW,
Washington DC 20016
Email: ibroder.nul Ph: 202 885 212

Dr Michael E. Salla can be reached at:
msalla.nul


Russia - Two Airliners Crash Within Minutes

ITAR-Tass reports that about the same time a Tu-154
disappeared, and a Tu-134 airliner crashed in the Tula region,
about 125 miles south of Moscow. Authorities believe the Tu-134
fell from an altitude of 32,800 feet and there were no survivors
from either plane. A Sibir airlines Tu-154 jet, carrying 46
people, took off from Moscow's newly redeveloped Domodedovo
airport at 9:35 p.m. Tuesday and the other plane, a Tu-134
carrying 43 people, left 40 minutes late. The Tu-134 was headed
to the southern city of Volgograd, while the other plane was
flying to the Black Sea resort city of Sochi, where President
Vladimir Putin is vacationing. The planes disappeared from radar
screens about 11:00 p.m., and by early Wednesday morning, the
wreckage of both had been found. Terrorism is feared.


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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 26

                       'Mothman' Director's Wife Dies

From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:46:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:00:19 -0400
Subject: 'Mothman' Director's Wife Dies


Sad news...

'Mothman' Director's Wife Dies

Sad news, but another for Loren's files. Notable that both of
Pellington's films are about a man whose wife dies -

-----

Source: http://www.moviepoopshoot.com/news/aug04/90.html

Wed, 25 Aug 2004

Ford Finds Himself Directionless

Mark Pellington has exited the director's chair for WB's
upcoming Harrison Ford starrer, The Wrong Element.

Helmer, who came aboard the pic in early July, bowed out due to
the death of his wife last week after a brief illness.

WB has yet to find a replacement for Pellington, though the
studio is actively pursuing a substitute to keep the pic's
intended early fall shoot date.

"I am unfortunately stepping down from the job of directing the
film 'The Wrong Element' due to the recent tragic loss of my
beloved wife Jennifer," Pellington said Monday in a statement to
Variety. "It is a difficult time, and having suffered the loss
of my life partner and mother to my child, I would not be able
to commit the time and energy and focus at this point needed to
truly successfully helm the film."

Pic, to star Ford and Paul Bettany, is being co-financed with
Village Roadshow Pictures. Jon Shestack and Beacon
Communications chairman Armyan Bernstein are producing. Pic,
penned by Joe Forte, revolves around the security chief for a
global bank whose family is kidnapped.

Pellington directed "Arlington Road" and "The Mothman
Prophecies." He is not attached to any other projects. (As
reported by VARIETY)

[Credit - Tim Chapman]

+++
Mothman Death List
http://www.lorencoleman.com/mothman_death_list.html







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 26

                  X-Files Dean Haglund On Black Vault Radio

From: John Greenewald - The Black Vault <bounces.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:50:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:04:24 -0400
Subject: X-Files Dean Haglund On Black Vault Radio


Dean Haglund on Black Vault Radio This Saturday Night

Northridge (BlackVault) - August 25, 2004 - Catch The X-Files
famed character "Langly", Dean Haglund, on Black Vault Radio
this Saturday night - starting at 11:00pm Pacific.

Dean is probably best known for his nine seasons playing Langly,
one of the computer geeks known as "The Lone Gunmen" from the
hit FOX TV series The X-Files. He also starred in the The X-
Files spin-off series The Lone Gunmen. His character is so
popular that Dean is a main attraction at X-File and Sci-Fi
conventions all over North America. He appears on trading cards,
T-Shirts and even has his own comic book ("The Lone Gunman"
published by Dark Horse Comics).

A long-time comedy improviser, Dean got his start with the likes
of Ryan Stiles and Colin Mockery (Whose Line is it Anyway?) in
the internationally award winning Vancouver TheatreSports
League. He now regularly performs in Los Angeles with The
Groundlings and Second City. Catch him nearly every Friday night
at The Friar's club where he performs with Second City alumni
such as Dan Castellaneta (Homer on The Simpsons).

The Black Vault Radio hit the airwaves just last weekend, and
had an overwhelming success. Servers were maxed out from
listeners fully streaming the audio LIVE on the Internet! Black
Vault Radio is also heard on the Cable Radio Network (CRN) and
is broadcast throughout the nation on countless cable and
satellite feeds.

For more information on how to listen, check out:

http://www.bvalphaserver.com/article9689.html

You can also download the premier of Black Vault Radio on that
link above, and listen to the entire program! Each show will be
archived online, and available for your listening pleasure 24
hours a day!

Download the .mp3 version to your portable player, and listen
while you work, job or just hanging out in your living room!

Thanks for listening, and this Saturday night (and every
Saturday night!) catch me LIVE on the air from 11:00pm - 12:00am
Pacific!

-----

Dean Haglund on Black Vault Radio This Saturday Night

Northridge (BlackVault) - August 25, 2004 - Catch The X-Files
famed character "Langly", Dean Haglund, on Black Vault Radio
this Saturday night - starting at 11:00pm Pacific.

Dean is probably best known for his nine seasons playing Langly,
one of the computer geeks known as "The Lone Gunmen" from the
hit FOX TV series The X-Files. He also starred in the The X-
Files spin-off series The Lone Gunmen. His character is so
popular that Dean is a main attraction at X-File and Sci-Fi
conventions all over North America. He appears on trading cards,
T-Shirts and even has his own comic book ("The Lone Gunman"
published by Dark Horse Comics).

A long-time comedy improviser, Dean got his start with the likes
of Ryan Stiles and Colin Mockery (Whose Line is it Anyway?) in
the internationally award winning Vancouver TheatreSports
League. He now regularly performs in Los Angeles with The
Groundlings and Second City. Catch him nearly every Friday night
at The Friar's club where he performs with Second City alumni
such as Dan Castellaneta (Homer on The Simpsons).

The Black Vault Radio hit the airwaves just last weekend, and
had an overwhelming success.  Servers were maxed out from
listeners fully streaming the audio LIVE on the Internet!  Black
Vault Radio is also heard on the Cable Radio Network (CRN) and
is broadcast throughout the nation on countless cable and
satellite feeds.

For more information on how to listen, check out:

http://www.bvalphaserver.com/article9689.html

You can also download the premier of Black Vault Radio on that
link above, and listen to the entire program!  Each show will be
archived online, and available for your listening pleasure 24
hours a day!

Download the .mp3 version to your portable player, and listen
while you work, job or just hanging out i=D8=F8 n your living room!

Thanks for listening, and this Saturday night (and every
Saturday night!) catch me LIVE on the air from 11:00pm - 12:00am
Pacific!







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   Aug > Aug 26

             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:04:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:05:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:25:10 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:38:29 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:14:19 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>Since Harney seems to take offense at the term "pelicanist,"
>>substitute "idiot," "fool," "dim bulb," or any other old-
>>fashioned term that means someone whose low level of
>>intelligence and/or obstinate personality and/or psychological
>>denial does not allow them to see that they are spouting patent
>>nonsense.

>David,

>I think this exchange nicely underscores the essential frivolity
>of pelicanism - er, excuse me, the "psychosocial hypothesis".

>Like the joke about the old Seinfeld television series (which at
>least was entertaining and not meant to be taken seriously), it
>is about nothing.  Pelicanists are always best off when they're
>flapping their wings, not involving themselves in discussions of
>actual substance, such as the puzzling sightings that comprise
>the core of the UFO problem.

True enough. They sure can get excited about gym-shorts labels,
though! <LOL>

alienview.nul

EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net






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   Aug > Aug 26

               Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:34:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:11:00 -0400
Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet? -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:32:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:40:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 1908 Siberian Explosion: UFO Meets Comet?

<snip>

>Wow! I'm almost starting to warm to you! You're _good_! <LOL>

>>As an aside, I address you as Mr. Lehmberg because we have never
>>met, and I haven't received private correspondence which would
>>clearly afford me the privilege of addressing you otherwise. As
>>we have now at the very least managed to "cut a rug" together,
>>would I be taking liberties to address you as Alfred?

>Ummmm - no. This early in our association it may be that
>familiarity turns to soon to contempt, Sir. The best we can work
>toward at present, Mr. King, is to be respectfully adversarial,
>I should think. It'll take a little more than a bow and a box of
>candy, in any case. Do you do metaphor? Mr. Rimmer has
>demonstrated a real problem with it, by way of example - also
>in the Archives.

Mr. Lehmberg,

My question was regarding the subject of UFOs. If I want advice
on how to solve all the worlds problems, I'll find a higher
authority, and one I feel is capable of answering such a
question. I neither suspect that such an authority posted to
this List, nor did I intend to place that burden on you. Not in
any way. I think it's odd that you received it that way.

I thought your post was trying to infer that the truth about
UFOs might be better known if there wasn't so much duplicity,
fraud, etc. coming from the institutions we should trust to
provide such information. That sentiment I fully agree with,
even if we disagree on what that truth is. I'm not sure that we
actually do disagree though, as your responses tend to only
confuse me more.

My question was exactly what it appeared to be - a
semi- rhetorical question of how one (or many) might actually
effect change, short of anarchy. I imagined for a moment that
you may have either a ready suggestion, or perhaps the same
lament that I have... that it is likely that we will have to
divine the truth ourselves, independent of the institutions you
mentioned. In spite of them. Each time I envision a scenario
wherein one (or many)might force the issue, the institutions you
talked about instantly mobilize to produce sufficient fraud,
duplicity, etc (FUD) to muddy everything, and we're back where
we started. I thought we might find a meeting of the minds in
there, and perhaps a suggestion for a solution, or a path to a
solution, or a mere opinion. Twas my goal. Really and truly.

If you have already addressed this issue, I apologize for
dredging it up and provoking more misplaced assumptions about my
motives for asking.

I promise not to trouble you again until I am better versed on
your existing body of work, lest I invite more of your peculiar
brand of mind-reading, which prevents understanding on both
sides. In this case, it is unwarranted because it is incorrect.
You argue with someone you have invented. "He" is not "me".
Really and truly.

My final (aside) question was a yes or not question to which you
answered "no". I believe you meant to say "yes", unless I
misinterpret the remainder of the paragraph. No need to clarify.

Finally, anarchy IS sometimes appropriate. I'm just not sure
that it leads to finding truth. Since the remaining rubble is
usually claimed by the strongest and not the wisest, the result
can lead to something worse than even a feigned "order". But
chaos in some form may well be the final catalyst. That seems a
very distinct possibility to me. Really and truly.

Until I am better qualified to inquire, all the best,


Kyle







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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:03:50 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:33:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:38:29 -0700
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:14:19 +0100
>>Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:08:28 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney

>>A number of people argued against the pelican theory at some
>>length, so they presumably took it seriously.

>Giggle. No, people like me argued against it not because we took
>it seriously, but because people like Harney took it seriously
>and were proclaiming it the ultimate solution to the Arnold
>case.

I certainly don't proclaim it the ultimate solution. I think
there are too many uncertainties in the story to be confident of
any particular interepretation of it being correct.

>>Its chief weakness
>>seems to be that it supposes that Arnold's estimates of speeds
>>and distances were highly inaccurate.

>No, it's chief weakness was that it was scientifically
>impossible. Pelicans can't outfly a plane on a parallel course.
>This has nothing to do with Arnold's estimates of speed or
>distance. Even if Easton's "pelicans" were right outside
>Arnold's window, they couldn't move _forward_ of Arnold's
>position and finally disappear in the distance _ahead_ of his
>plane because, duhhh, pelicans can't outfly a plane.

Yes, but the accuracy of Arnold's account is disputed. Nobody
suggested that any birds could fly faster than his plane.

>>This does not, however,
>>make it "demonstrably pseudoscientific", as "pseudoscientific"
>>does not mean the same as "unacceptable to credulous UFO
>>enthusiasts".

>It certainly does make it "demonstrably pseudoscientific" if not
>downright idiotic, not that Harney seems to care.

Only if you can somehow prove the accuracy of Arnold's account.

>>>*A pelicanist is "one who proposes hard-to-believe solutions to
>>>puzzling UFO sightings" - Strange Skies, p. 35.

>>Note - not "irrational" or "plainly false", but "hard-to-
>>believe". It doesn't matter if it's the true answer or not, if
>>you don't like it, the proposer of it is a "pelicanist".

>A pelican outflying a plane is indeed clearly "irrational" and
>"plainly false," hence "hard-to-believe." What more does anyone
>with any brains need to dismiss it?

It would be, but who said that they could fly faster than a
plane?

Here's the bit where he gets hysterical:

>Since Harney seems to take offense at the term "pelicanist,"
>substitute "idiot," "fool," "dim bulb," or any other old-
>fashioned term that means someone who's low level of
>intelligence and/or obstinate personality and/or psychological
>denial does not allow them to see that they are spouting patent
>nonsense.


John Harney







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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:09:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:35:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:06:23 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:14:19 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>A number of people argued against the pelican theory at some
>>length, so they presumably took it seriously. Its chief weakness
>>seems to be that it supposes that Arnold's estimates of speeds
>>and distances were highly inaccurate. This does not, however,
>>make it "demonstrably pseudoscientific", as "pseudoscientific"
>>does not mean the same as "unacceptable to credulous UFO
>>enthusiasts".

>"A number of people..." What number? My recollection is that
>there were 2 or 3 who argued "pelican" and the others who
>realized that there would have to have been several serious
>errors in Arnold's reporting of the event for the pelican
>explanation to "fly." A major error would have to be in Arnold's
>claim that he turned his aircraft to look out the open window
>(pilot's left side window) to be certain there were no
>reflections. At this time he would have been flying parallel to
>the "pelicans."

<snip>

Exactly. It all depended on whether you regarded Arnold's account
as being pretty accurate or whether there were major errors in
it. For example, James Easton argued on this matter at great
length in a posting on 22 July 1999:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1999/jul/m22-009.shtm

I was not arguing that Easton's theory was true or other
theories were false, but that it was nevertheless rational -
 whether right or wrong - just as your interpretation is
perfectly rational, even if some people point to changes Arnold
made in his account and suspect that his account is unreliable
in some respects.

Personally, I see no reason to favour any particular theory as
to what Arnold might have seen.

>>Note - not "irrational" or "plainly false", but "hard-to-
>>believe". It doesn't matter if it's the true answer or not, if
>>you don't like it, the proposer of it is a "pelicanist".

>A stronger definition would be this: a pelicanist is one who
>proposes publicly (as if it were "the: solution) an explanation
>which contradicts the best evidence (most likely to be correct)
>in sighting report.

Who decides on the quality of the evidence? In a number of
well-known cases the evidence is very much in dispute.

>The "corollary to this definition" is that the "pelicanist" must
>convincingly show where the report is wrong in order to justify
>the proposed explanation. This is where the pelicanist
>argument is weak and has led me to be skeptical of the
skeptics.

No. It is necessary to show that the report is correct. As is
often repeated - extraordinary claims require extraordinary
evidence

John Harney







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   Aug > Aug 26

                      Article "Flying Saucers Are Fun!"

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:25:42 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:37:52 -0400
Subject: Article "Flying Saucers Are Fun!"


"Flying Saucers Are Fun!"

http://www.times-standard.com/Stories/0,1413,127~2896~2352005,00.html

Here's an article about a town that uses the 'Flying Saucer' phenom
to bring their community together and have fun.


Best,

Greg







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                          Secrecy News -- 08/25/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:19:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:39:26 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/25/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 75
August 25, 2004


**      HALF OF ALL SECRETS ARE IMPROPERLY CLASSIFIED, OFFICIAL SAYS
**      CIA MULLS DISCLOSURE OF HISTORICAL INTEL BUDGET DATA
**      A REPORT CARD ON SECRECY
**      JOINT DOCTRINE FOR COMBATING WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION


HALF OF ALL SECRETS ARE IMPROPERLY CLASSIFIED, OFFICIAL SAYS

Half of all government secrets may be unnecessarily or
improperly classified, a Pentagon intelligence official told a
congressional hearing this week.

Pressed by Rep. Christopher Shays (R-CT) to estimate what
percentages of all classified information are and are not
correctly classified, Carol A. Haave, the Deputy Undersecretary
of Defense for Counterintelligence and Security, said: "How
about if I say 50-50?"

"I do believe that we overclassify information," she said. "I
do believe that it is extensive [but] not for the purpose of
wanting to hide anything. But I will tell you that with respect
to military operations, people have a tendency to err on the
side of caution."

The August 24 hearing was held by the House Government Reform
Committee Subcommittee on National Security to consider the
recommendations of the 9/11 Commission with respect to
overclassification and information sharing.

A transcript of the hearing may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/082404transcript.html

The witnesses included Ms. Haave, Information Security Oversight
Office Director J. William Leonard, former NSA deputy director
William Crowell of the Markle Foundation Task Force on National
Security, and myself.

Their prepared statements may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/index.html


CIA MULLS DISCLOSURE OF HISTORICAL INTEL BUDGET DATA

The Central Intelligence Agency asked a federal court for more
time to consider its response to an FAS lawsuit that seeks the
disclosure of historical intelligence budget data from 1947
through 1970. An Agency response had been due August 25.

In its formal request for a three week extension until September
15, the Agency cited the impact of the 9/11 Commission report
and said that the Commission's recommendations "continue to be
the subject of an extraordinary level of activity by officials
at the highest levels of government -- including Acting Director
of Central Intelligence McLaughlin himself."

Informally, the CIA's counsel suggested that the 9/11 Commission
recommendation to declassify (current) intelligence budget
figures and the Administration's forthcoming response could moot
the Agency's opposition to disclosure of historical budget data.

The CIA's insistence on historical budget secrecy was cited at a
congressional hearing this week as an extreme example of
overclassification.

See the CIA's unopposed motion to delay its response until
September 15 here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/cia082004.pdf


A REPORT CARD ON SECRECY

The expansion of official secrecy in recent years is measurable,
not merely rhetorical, and is documented in a "report card"
issued this week by OpenTheGovernment.org, a coalition of
organizations working to defend public access to government
information.

"Government data confirm what many have suspected: secrecy has
increased dramatically in recent years under policies of the
current administration. For every $1 the federal government
spent last year releasing old secrets, it spent an extraordinary
$120 maintaining the secrets already on the books," according to
an OpenTheGovernment.org press release.

"Secrecy Report Card: Quantitative Indicators of Secrecy in the
Federal Government" is to be available as of Thursday morning,
August 26, here:

http://www.openthegovernment.org/


JOINT DOCTRINE FOR COMBATING WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION

Military doctrine on confronting the threat of weapons of mass
destruction is set forth in a new Department of Defense
document.

It addresses the principles and practices to be employed in
nonproliferation, counterproliferation, and consequence
management.

See "Joint Doctrine for Combating Weapons of Mass Destruction,"
Joint Publication 3-40, 8 July 2004 (81 pages, 400 KB PDF file)
(thanks to RT):

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/jp3_40.pdf



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691







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              Re: UFO Triangle Formation Melbourne Australia -

From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:35:15 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:41:41 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Triangle Formation Melbourne Australia -


>From: John Auchettl <Praufo.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:25:40 -0400
>Subject: UFO Triangle Formation Melbourne Australia

<snip>

More information can be viewed at this link:

http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Victorian_sighting.html

Content:
*Eyewitness reports
*Color images
*Area Maps

This is an interesting sighting with many witnesses.

A Channel 9 TV cameraman also filmed the objects.

George Simpson will view 2 lots of video, when he has completed
these interviews there will be more to report.


Regards Diane Harrison

National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director


E-Mail: auforn.nul
E-mail: ufologist.nul
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn







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                    Disclosure Australia Announcement 17

From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:55:42 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:43:32 -0400
Subject: Disclosure Australia Announcement 17


Disclosure Australia Newsletter 16 has been posted to:

http://disclosure.freewebpage.org

This issue contains an exclusive interview of Harry Turner by
the Project.

Turner was the person the RAAF asked to look at their UFO files
in 1954, and Turner's report lay in Government Archives until
Bill Chalker found it in the early 80's.

Turner worked in the Department of Defence's Joint Intelligence
Bureau between 1964 and 1982 and was the person behind the UFO
scenes.

A fascinating interview.

--
The Australian UFO  Research
Network Disclosure Project

Auspiced by the
Australian UFO Research Network
PO Box 738, Beaudesert,
Queensland 4285
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn

Secretariat: the
Australian UFO Research Association
PO Box 786, North Adelaide,
South Australia 5006
http://disclosure.freewebpage.org/








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                           Newest AUFORN UFO Photo

From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:01:25 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:45:51 -0400
Subject: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo


View The Newest UFO Photo to have landed on AUFORNs desk:

http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/contentpage.html


Regards Diane Harrison
National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

E-Mail: auforn.nul
E-mail: ufologist.nul
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn







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                          CI: Pravda Gets It Wrong

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 20:42:38 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:53:29 -0400
Subject: CI: Pravda Gets It Wrong



List,

As some of you have noticed, I've migrated new posts from the
"old" Cydonian Imperative website to a new template hosted by
Blogger.

Meanwhile, keep an eye on

http://cydonianimperative.blogspot.com

for new posts.

All content at:

http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

will remain unchanged.

Anyway, here's the latest.

Thanks!

Mac Tonnies

-----

Cydonian Imperative:
Pravda Gets It Wrong

by Mac Tonnies

Humanoid face mysteriously disappears from Mars

"On June 25, 1995 the NASA administration included the test
photoshoot of the Martian face in the program flight of Mars
Global Surveyor spacecraft. The mission control received the
long-awaited photos on April 5th, 1998. The spacecraft took
pictures of the face from the height of 440 kilometers (in 1976
the images were taken from the height of 1,870 kilometers). To
everyone's great disappointment, the photos depicted only uneven
landscape - one could not see any facial outlines on them at
all."

[image]

JPL's 1998 "catbox" "enhancement" on the Face on Mars.

This colorful account from Pravda - the Russian equivalent to
the West's Weekly World News - reiterates one of the most
depressing aspects of the Mars Global Surveyor's infamous 1998
reimaging of the Face on Mars: the conviction that the facial
likeness observed in the Apollo images had somehow vanished,
mirage-like, into the Cydonian terrain upon closer
investigation.

[image]

Viking frame 35A72: our first look at the Face (1976).

The 1998 image initially released to the news media had been
subjected to a high-pass filter, a digital imaging process used
to suppress detail. It's virtually certain that JPL/NASA's use
of the filter was intentional and thus disingenuous - a near-
effortless attempt to erase the Face from the public conscience.
Tellingly, subsequent images were spared the grainy, substandard
appearance generated by the high-pass filter.

Few, if any, independent Mars researchers were fooled. But
Pravda's naive treatment of the subject shows that JPL's
trickery continues to generate confusion on an international
level.

[image]

Above is a conventionally processed image of the 1998 photo
(inverted to simulate original Viking lighting conditions). On a
related note, I find it disturbingly ironic that image processor
Lan Fleming's effort to reproduce JPL's "catbox" image is
actually a bit more discernable than the "official" attempt to
obliterate the Face.

-end-







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                          Re: Moon Questions - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:20:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:55:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - King


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 07:49:58 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>Communications might be the remaining obstacle. Odd that we
>>still need line of sight to communicate effectively...with all
>>the advances in the last few decades. A more helpful alien
>>visitor might drop off some material on that one.

>I have found it interesting for some time that we still don't
>have a permanent satellite in lunar orbit. I don't understand
>that. It's not like it wouldn't be useful. And compared to
>putting something in orbit around Saturn, it would be a piece of
>cake.

>It makes me think of all the folks who have said our relative
>lack of lunar exploration is because we have been 'warned off'.
>Booo-o-o-o-o-o!

Tim,

If such a satellite was set into an equatorial geosynchronous
orbit, perhaps we could use it to maintain communications with a
base on the far side, as it would always be "visible" (RF-wise)
from here, like the lunar disk itself. This would require some
gymnastics with the signal here. We already have the earth
covered several times over though, so it would seem plausible to
utilize an existing grid to pass the chores one to another as
they followed the moon. Another approach would be to tether such
a satellite to the moon and let it out to a point of equilibrium
roughly to the "right" or "left" of the moon as seen from
Earth.. Would provide some good experimentation for the
"elevator to space" in a safer, off-planet, low-gravity
environment. A nice test for the tech, perhaps? An incentive to
take a closer look at the idea?

As for being "warned off", Arthur Clarke may have pegged it
after all: "All these worlds are yours except (the
Moon?)... Attempt no (more?)landings there". :)


Kind Regards,

Kyle






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                          Re: Moon Questions - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:44:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:57:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - King


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:51:27 -0400
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

<snip>

>Kyle,

>The idea is a good one, but probably only one piece of a larger
>picture. I think a moon base to establish a presence on the moon
>and begin scientific investigation is a goal that I would
>certainly support. A moon based telescope would be part of that,
>I'm sure, and I can imagine that many astronomers would jump at
>the chance to spend a short period of time on the moon at such a
>facility.

>This will likely become a reality at some point, if we don't
>blow our society apart first. Unfortunately, it's not likely to
>occur in my lifetime.


Steve,

I agree that a project of this sort would require additional
goals, and among them could be...

Passive radar detection a la Bassett's passive grid (too UFO-
centric perhaps) as well as active collision detection equipment
(less UFO- centric but still an additional "eye" on the local
scene for meteor and space debris.

Tether technology, i.e., testing the tech in the lower lunar
gravity, and away from any hazards to earthlings. Also perhaps
using this technology to plant a communications bird in attached
orbit to allow continuous communication with Earth from the far
side.

Radio-telescopy from a far more "pristine" vantage point, less
affected by terrestrial "noise".

The type of experiments once conducted on the shuttle,
where reduced or micro-gravity is useful.

Training for interplanetary missions including habitat
testing... physiological effects on long-term space travel, etc.

Terraforming (small constructed biospheres for food production,
etc)

Waste management, and the use of waste products for fertilizers,
etc.

Resource exploitation - the commercial and industrial implications

While I realize that the costs of these projects would be high,
all the potential return on just a couple of the ideas listed
could well pay for the entire kit and the kaboodle, too.

I share your assessment that it is not likely in the near-term.
I hope the idea takes hold, however. The moon is seemingly a
forgotten step- stool to some awesome achievements... which is
the shame. We see it every single day, and yet it is as if it
isn't there at all.

Kind Regards,


Kyle








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                   Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo - Jack

From: Victoria Jack <isis777.nul>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:52:38 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:07:34 -0400
Subject: Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo - Jack



[Non-subscriber post]

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
To: ufoupdates.nul
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 01:55:08 -0700
Subject: Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo


>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:04:39 -0700
>Subject: Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo

>>From: Victoria Jack <isis777.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:44:12 -0700
>>Subject: Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo

>>>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:06:02 -0700
>>>>Subject: Re: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo

>>>>>From: Victoria Jack <isis777.nul>
>>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:47:28 -0400
>>>>>Subject: 6th Annual Bay Area UFO Expo

<snip>

>>>>>Also presenting this year are William Henry, James Gilliland
>>>>>Lloyd Pye, Jaime Maussan, Richard Dolan, Michael Horn, Tricia
>>>>>McCannon and many more! Our special guests include George Noory
>>>>>of Coast To Coast AM, The Sci-Fi Channel, Bill Birnes of UFO
>>>>>Magazine and Sean David Morton.

>>>>Sean David Morton associated with "truth" and "reality"... now
>>>>there's a laugh. Sad to see some are still willing to promote
>>>>this phony...

>>>Sean David Morton is not speaking at the Expo this year, he's
>>>only coming down to visit and to introduce George Noory.

>>>You hit me pretty hard in 9/11; I couldn't cancel the
>>>conference. If you would ever like to come down for yourself
>>>and check things out, I'd be glad to have you as a guest.

>>Thanks for your response. This is the first time someone
>>associated with a conference has actually taken the time to
>>respond, aside from some idiot telling me through third parties
>>that my time should be spent doing something else or someone
>>accusing me of being some government disinformation operative or
>>some other nonsense.

>>For those unfamiliar with what Victoria is referring to
>>regarding 9/11, this was a commentary I wrote when people
>>started hawking 'the truth' about 9/11 before the smoke from the
>>WTC had even cleared, which I thought of as nothing less than
>>utterly shameless and smacking of double dipping for dollars.

>>http://www.ufowatchdog.com/shameless.html

>>Now that I have a promoter right here, I'd like to ask you a few
>>questions.....

>>Victoria, you said two things: You couldn't cancel the
>>conference in 2001 and that Morton isn't a presenter and is
>>"only coming down to visit and to introduce George Noory."

>>First, I'm not completely sure why you brought up being unable
>>to cancel the conference. Would you clarify what you meant by
>>that? And if you're talking about me hitting "pretty hard in
>>9/11" in reference to my commentary, the people that were
>>selling the blood from 9/11 were more than deserving of that
>>commentary and the outrage over the antics taking place at that
>>time.

>>Secondly, why do conferences continually play host to known
>>charlatans, seeming to endorse the veracity of claims made by
>>known UFO idiots by continually associating their names with
>>'reality' and that catch-all 'the truth'? Why not cast a more
>>discerning eye on speakers and attempt to host the most credible
>>presenters?

><snip>

>>I'm sure you're aware of Morton's failed lawsuit against me and
>>my website. His baseless libel case was tossed out when he
>>couldn't prove any of his claims when it came time to present
>>evidence in court. When I hear his name associated with anything
>>resembling 'reality', I can't help being both amused and
>>astonished.

>>http://www.ufowatchdog.com/mortonfiles.html

>>However, it's a free country and free market, you can,
>>obviously, do what you want at your conference and have whomever
>>you choose. I just find it hard to believe that anyone having a
>>serious interest in UFOs would play host to any number of UFO
>>idiots out there at the cost of serious and credible Ufology.

><snip>

>>Victoria, I'd like to hear your take on this. Thanks for the
>>invitation to your Conference, I do sincerely appreciate it.
>>I've found being regular Joe UFO conference attendee is much
>>more informative.

>>I await your response and appreciate your time. Thanks.

>Well, I never did hear back from Victoria Jack. I guess she's
>not interested in answering my questions before the Bay Area UFO
>Expo takes place.

Hello,

I'm really busy before the show, I wanted to give you a more
thoughtful response, but if you'd like here's a few quick
thoughts. Plus I did send you a very long email right after I
saw what you'd written, but NEVER heard back from you.

Re: Cancel of the 2001 Expo...

9/11 was 4 days before the Expo, so me using the Expo to sell
"Blood" as you put it, I would had to know about it before the
event.

I would have lost a $14,000.00 deposit. I would have had to get
another date from the hotel (which at that time would have been
about a week or two before Christmas. Not a good time! Do all of
my advertising again, get a hold of 1,100 people and tell them
not to come (some drive, some fly they would have lost money
also, with these non-refundable tickets) I would have lost all
the money from the airline tickets I'd purchased for the
speakers. And much more that I don't have time to go into.


Plus speakers and attendees started calling me and telling me
NOT to cancel. They said, "If you cancel, they win! Or "I for
one need a distraction after this week."

So after getting calls all Tuesday and Wednesday I decided to go
on with it. I don't want it to sound like the only thing I think
about is money... but I don't make or have a lot, and if I had
cancelled, it would probably been the end of the Bay Area UFO
Expo.

Regarding Morton's law suite... No I didn't know anything about
it. I try to keep an open mind and stay out of the politics.

I went through all of your Halls and except for 3 people and the
X-File poster (I was an X-File Fan) I agree with you and why you
have them up there. I've only had a very few of them speak at my
conference.

I would love for you to give me a list of people you think
should be speaking, and I will consider each and every one of
them.

I'm sorry I can't really get into this any longer - I do have to
leave for the Hotel tomorrow, and am still getting things
together. But after the expo I will write you something better
with more thought behind it.


Most Sincerely,

Victoria Jack






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 26

                   Melbourne UFO Triangle Formation Videos

From: John Auchettl <Praufo.nul>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 04:48:01 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:29:56 -0400
Subject: Melbourne UFO Triangle Formation Videos


UFO TRIANGLE FORMATION
Melbourne
Australia
23 Aug 2004-08-24
=C2=A9 Phenomena Research Australia

VIDEO SAMPLE

LOCATION

http://praufo.bravehost.com/PRA_-_UFO_Triangle_Melbourne_23_Aug_2004.html

NOTE:

These two videos are in a high quality production mode. They have
been edited for space.

INSTRUCTION:
(1) Right click on the DOWNLOAD link
(2) Save Target As
(3) Save to a file


VIDEO 1
Raw Night Vision Data
Size:  WMA file 2.2MB or 2147 Kb

VIDEO 2
Negative Effect Data
Size: WMA file 2,2MB 0r 2191 Kb


Best regards to you all,

John Auchettl
PRA - Director








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              Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:54:31 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:31:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Bourdais


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:39:37 -0700
>Subject: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

>Source: The Daily Times

>Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

>By Debra Mayeux
>The Daily Times

To the List,

There is a five page article by Scott Ramsey in the August MUFON
UFO Journal.

A very interesting article.

And many thanks to Scott Ramsey, who has found a series of
witnesses, after many years of research and high expenses, and
his research is going on.

Any comment from the List?

Gildas Bourdais







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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:08:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:42:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:09:09 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:06:23 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:14:19 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind


Patient and gentle Listfolk:

>No. It is necessary to show that the report is correct. As is
>often repeated - extraordinary claims require extraordinary
>evidence.

This is yet another of the uncountable reasons I am not a
pelicanist. If I thought for a moment that Harney were thinking
at all, I would presume he means that since Arnold couldn't
produce wreckage, machinery, or bodies, we can ignore his
sighting as unprovable. But who knows what Harney means? I doubt
that he does, either; he just like the sounds of the words. For
the rest of you:

The man who coined the phrase Harney recites, often
misattributed to Carl Sagan, was a good friend of mine, someone
with whom over the years I spent hundreds of hours conversing
and who influenced my own views of anomalous questions
immensely. I refer to the late sociologist of science Marcello
Truzzi, whose reasonableness, balance, and nuanced thinking are
missed more than ever, especially when one is being subjected to
pelican flappings.

Marcello thought up the notion ("extraordinary claims require
extraordinary evidence") many years ago and spent the rest of
his life regretting it. (Unfortunately, Marcello never got
around to writing the book he always talked about, in which he
would have examined the question at length.) Rightly, he
regarded the maxim as an empty tautology. He also pointed out
that it begged such basic questions as:

What is an "extraordinary claim"? What is "extraordinary
evidence"?  And even if you can define such (the terms, of
course, are inherently relative, subjective, and elusive), why
do you need "extraordinary" evidence to prove an "extraordinary"
claim, and not just good, ordinary evidence?

Marcello believed that the individual who has nothing to prove
is the one who has said nothing at all. (In effect, this is the
individual who expresses no judgment except not to involve
himself in the controversy and to go on with his or her life and
work without heeding Claim X.) But as Marcello emphatically
argued, a skeptic has as much obligation as the proponent to
prove his assertion. Thus, Harney, who has made an assertion
above, must now establish, via good evidence and logical
argument, that the report was incorrect. He can't just make that
apparently unfalsifiable (and - more to the point - deeply
convenient) claim and let it go at that, much as he wants to.

Let's see if he can show us why we should judge Arnold's report
incorrect - other than by waving his hands, of course, and
declaring that since UFOs don't exist, Arnold _must_ have been
in error. Of course, since pelicanism is indeed about nothing at
all, Harney's words as they stand have all the substance of
passing wind.


Jerry Clark







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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:52:46 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:04:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:08:38 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:09:09 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>No. It is necessary to show that the report is correct. As is
>>often repeated - extraordinary claims require extraordinary
>>evidence.

>This is yet another of the uncountable reasons I am not a
>pelicanist. If I thought for a moment that Harney were thinking
>at all, I would presume he means that since Arnold couldn't
>produce wreckage, machinery, or bodies, we can ignore his
>sighting as unprovable. But who knows what Harney means? I doubt
>that he does, either; he just like the sounds of the words. For
>the rest of you:

I don't think we should ignore the Arnold sighting just because
nothing can be proved one way or the other. I do think, however,
that in view of the fact that it was a single-witness sighting,
that not too much weight should be given to it.

<snip>

>What is an "extraordinary claim"? What is "extraordinary
>evidence"?  And even if you can define such (the terms, of
>course, are inherently relative, subjective, and elusive), why
>do you need "extraordinary" evidence to prove an "extraordinary"
>claim, and not just good, ordinary evidence?

What is being claimed - by some people - in this case is that
Arnold actually saw some aircraft traveling at supersonic speed
at a time when no such craft existed anywhere on Earth. I think
most people would regard that as an extraordinary claim.

>Marcello [Truzzi] believed that the individual who has nothing
>to proveis the one who has said nothing at all. (In effect,
>this is the individual who expresses no judgment except not to
>involve himself in the controversy and to go on with his or her
>life and work without heeding Claim X.) But as Marcello
>emphatically argued, a skeptic has as much obligation as the
>proponent to prove his assertion. Thus, Harney, who has made an
>assertion above, must now establish, via good evidence and
>logical argument, that the report was incorrect. He can't just
>make that apparently unfalsifiable (and - more to the point -
>deeply convenient) claim and let it go at that, much as he
>wants to.

If you had actually bothered to read my post you would see that
I do not assert that any particular interpretation of the Arnold
case is incorrect; I said that different interpretations were
_not irrational_. Of course, either all of them are wrong or one
of them is right, but I don't pretend to know which.

>Let's see if he can show us why we should judge Arnold's report
>incorrect - other than by waving his hands, of course, and
>declaring that since UFOs don't exist, Arnold _must_ have been
>in error. Of course, since pelicanism is indeed about nothing at
>all, Harney's words as they stand have all the substance of
>passing wind.

Those who are interested must use their judgement to assess how
accurate they think Arnold's report might have been.

Could you please cite the posting or publication in which I
declare "that since UFOs don't exist, Arnold _must_ have been in
error"? You are making things up again, Jerry,  just as some
people do to spice up unexciting UFO reports.


John Harney







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                         Re: Moon Questions - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:27:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:09:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Kaeser



>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:20:31 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

<snip>

>If such a satellite was set into an equatorial geosynchronous
>orbit, perhaps we could use it to maintain communications with a
>base on the far side, as it would always be "visible" (RF-wise)
>from here, like the lunar disk itself. This would require some
>gymnastics with the signal here. We already have the earth
>covered several times over though, so it would seem plausible to
>utilize an existing grid to pass the chores one to another as
>they followed the moon. Another approach would be to tether such
>a satellite to the moon and let it out to a point of equilibrium
>roughly to the "right" or "left" of the moon as seen from
>Earth.. Would provide some good experimentation for the
>"elevator to space" in a safer, off-planet, low-gravity
>environment. A nice test for the tech, perhaps? An incentive to
>take a closer look at the idea?

>As for being "warned off", Arthur Clarke may have pegged it
>after all: "All these worlds are yours except (the
>Moon?)... Attempt no (more?)landings there". :)

Hi Kyle,

A satellite in geosynchronous orbit around the Earth would not
see a moon base when it was turned away from the satellite, and
a satellite in geosynchronous orbit around the moon (and I'm not
really sure of the feasibility of that) would put the moon
between it and the Earth as the moon rotated around the Earth.
  The goal is a valid one, but I think it will involved a series
of satellites orbiting the moon.

As I seem to recall, our failure to go back to the moon or spend
a lot of resources in performing in depth analysis is based on a
lack of interest when compared to the outer planets.  For many
in NASA I get the impression that they believe we've already
been there and they have to look outward, and a moon base has
never really been a topic of discussion (since the late 50's
when the military had a serious study generated).  It's also not
fair to say that we've completely ignored the moon, with several
non-manned satellites sent to study facets of the moon over the
past two decades.

I've seen no indication from credible sources that there have
been any warnings, or concerns about warnings, in regard to
returning to the moon.


Steve









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             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:48:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:11:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:09:09 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:06:23 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>A stronger definition would be this: a pelicanist is one who
>>proposes publicly (as if it were "the: solution) an explanation
>>which contradicts the best evidence (most likely to be correct)
>>in sighting report.

>Who decides on the quality of the evidence? In a number of
>well-known cases the evidence is very much in dispute.

>>The "corollary to this definition" is that the "pelicanist" must
>>convincingly show where the report is wrong in order to justify
>>the proposed explanation. This is where the pelicanist
>>argument is weak and has led me to be skeptical of the
>skeptics.

>No. It is necessary to show that the report is correct. As is
>ften repeated - extraordinary claims require extraordinary
>evidence

No, the report is the report. It must be assumed true and
accurate to some degree. Analogous to innocent until proven
guilty. The skeptic must show where the report is wrong in such
a way as to make the "corrected" report agree with an proposed
explanation.

In the Arnold case the skeptic must argue that Arnold was
incorrect in saying that he rolled his window down and turned
the plane 'sideways" to avoid reflections. At this time he was
flying south parallel to the "pelicans."

There are numerous other reported details which also must have
been wrong for the pelicans to have a chance of flying.

Of course, if one takes the attitude that no observer is ever
correct an any details except the ones that agree with a
particular mundane explanation, then, of course, all sightings
are explainable. (This might not apply to instrumented
sightings.... but each one has to be tackled on its own. In the
1978 New Zealand sightings, for example, the coincidence between
radar targets and observed lights and even color movies make it
ven more difficult to argue that the witness statements... and
radar and film... are simultaneously wrong.)







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   Aug > Aug 27

             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:50:11 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:17:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Friedman


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:08:38 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:09:09 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>Patient and gentle Listfolk:

>>No. It is necessary to show that the report is correct. As is
>>often repeated - extraordinary claims require extraordinary
>>evidence.

<snip>

>The man who coined the phrase Harney recites, often
>misattributed to Carl Sagan, was a good friend of mine, someone
>with whom over the years I spent hundreds of hours conversing
>and who influenced my own views of anomalous questions
>immensely. I refer to the late sociologist of science Marcello
>Truzzi, whose reasonableness, balance, and nuanced thinking are
>missed more than ever, especially when one is being subjected to
>pelican flappings.

<snip>

>Marcello believed that the individual who has nothing to prove
>is the one who has said nothing at all. (In effect, this is the
>individual who expresses no judgment except not to involve
>himself in the controversy and to go on with his or her life and
>work without heeding Claim X.) But as Marcello emphatically
>argued, a skeptic has as much obligation as the proponent to
>prove his assertion. Thus, Harney, who has made an assertion
>above, must now establish, via good evidence and logical
>argument, that the report was incorrect. He can't just make that
>apparently unfalsifiable (and - more to the point - deeply
>convenient) claim and let it go at that, much as he wants to.

>Let's see if he can show us why we should judge Arnold's report
>incorrect - other than by waving his hands, of course, and
>declaring that since UFOs don't exist, Arnold _must_ have been
>in error. Of course, since pelicanism is indeed about nothing at
>all, Harney's words as they stand have all the substance of
>passing wind.


Right on Jerry, but I prefer Budd Hopkins version:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary investigation". I
would add that the proclamations, so often made by the
pelicanists, are not the same as investigation. Often they
involve pseudoscience... which is a lot easier to do than real
science.

I was off in Newfoundland for a fine week as a tourist with my
wife. We visited the Alexander Graham Bell museum in Nova Scotia
and the place (Cabot Tower in Newfoundland) where Marconi
received the first transatlantic radio signal in 1901... despite
the claims of the well educated pelicanists that the telephone
and wireless radio transmission over the ocean were impossible.
Bell was also involved with the first flight of a powered
airplane in the British empire... In Canada, in about 1908...
again despite those who said man would never fly... some of whom
claimed that the Wright Brothers were lying hoaxers re their
1903 flight.

The noisy negativists will always be with us.


Stan Friedman







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               HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 08-26-04

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:32:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:24:22 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 08-26-04


HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings

Date: Newsletter Released August 26, 2004

Smithfield, Near Trenton, Ontario Orange Ball

Date: 1992 or 93?
Time: Approx: 3:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: round glowing ball.

Full Description of event/sighting: Heard you on
unknowncountry.com and thought I would send in my UFO sighting.
I should be able to obtain the actual date because there was an
article in the Trentonian paper after I saw it because other
people had seen it too apparently.

This sighting was about 3:00 p.m. I think (if my memory serves)
I happened to notice orange sparks outside by the mailbox. It
was very odd. I thought must be a trick of the light on the
trees. (newspaper article later reported another lady was drawn
to window by sparks - same day or soon after I think) I couldn't
stop wondering about it so I went outside. I stood outside in
this small grass field staring at the sky like an idiot. Don't
know what the neighbors thought I was doing! I just stared for a
long time and didn't even see anything, don't know why I stayed.
Then I caught sight of this huge glowing orange ball just
hovering over the lake. I watched it for something like 15
minutes (I didn't have a watch on so not sure how long) I walked
around the neighborhood just looking up at this ball. It was
weird. Other people were outside, but no one else seemed to see
this ball in the sky!!!!! I began to think it must be something
normal around here. (My first year in Ontario, I'm from BC.)
Like a flare from some base operation and nobody thought
anything of it (Trenton airforce base is there) Some kids were
out in the street and I wanted to say to them, "Do you know what
that orange thing is???" But they weren't looking at it, they
never noticed it and I felt stupid, so I didn't say anything

My husband thinks it was a flare. But when the article came out
other people had seen it, the same day or close to it. It had
followed their car.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-------------------------------------

Fort St. John, British Columbia Craft/Plus (UFO)

Date: June 18/19, 2004 (images caught over a 2 day period)
Time: Day #1 - 8:30 p.m. - Day #2 - 2:30 p.m.

HBCC UFO Research Note: I received an email on August 18, 2004
from a fellow who resides in Fort St. John, British Columbia. In
the email was one picture only. There was no report/text to go
with the photo. I looked at the photo and wondered what the heck
the "thing" was in which the witness caught on film. Today,
August 24, 2004 I received a package in the postal mail from the
witness. In the parcel there was the same picture that I
received from him earlier, a report and a 95mb CD which held a
lot of footage of some incredible objects he had taken. I played
the footage and about half way through I was able to see the
object he had captured on film and which he sent to me in the
email. This object, whatever it might be moved so fast that I
had one heck of a time in trying to edit the clip to grab a
still of it, again mainly because the object moved so quickly. I
also ran the footage again and grabbed a clip which shows the
object flying past the camera which I have posted to my site.
Also I have posted a number of photos of white objects which are
flying in all different direction and again the speed in
incredible. I will be going through the footage more carefully
as there is alot on it. More footage and pictures will be added
as I go through the video.

I telephoned him and we had a nice conversation, and my first
question to him was, were there any dandelion or Cottonwood
seeds flying around that day that he noticed. He said no. The
fellow also said the temperature that day was around 20 degrees
C (68 degrees F). There was "no" wind what so ever, he said the
air was still that day.

Witnesses Report: On June 18th and 19th, 2004 I was filming what
I thought was Rods from my friends backyard. What I saw through
the camera at 40X could not be seen with the naked eye. The
first day (gray sky), the footage was taken around 8:30 p.m.
while on the second day (blue sky) was around 2:30 p.m.

The photos and footage I have sent you shows 2 craft and a Rod.
The craft appears clearly in one frame only. This is the third
sighting I've had and all the objects were traveling along the
same path, along the Alaska Highway. I also took more video
footage yesterday (August 19, 2004) and it also shows more Rods
but nothing clear.

Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.

Video clips and pictures are =A92004Mr.Mann.

-----------------------------

North Langley, BC Sighting

Date: Beginning of August 2004
Time: 1:30-2:30 a.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1?
Shape of objects: Star-Like

Full Description of event/sighting: Hello, I live in a North
Langley municipality in the Fraser Valley. I developed a bad
case of insomnia and over the summer, I started to take late
night walks to help relax me (I THOUGHT!). I was only in my
second or 3rd night out and I was standing still doing some star
gazing and I also like to try and spot the odd satellite moving
across the sky.

On this particular night, I was looking virtually straight up
when I saw a very bright "star" appear and then disappear! I
thought I was maybe just seeing things but I got a very
sick/excited type feeling in my stomach and body. It was like I
just saw something I couldn't explain and it looked like it was
not within our atmosphere.

I went home and couldn't stop thinking about what I just saw. In
future walks, I started to take my camera with me but to date, I
have not been able to catch anything on it. Then about 3 weeks
ago, I was looking straight up again and low and behold, FLASH!
Another bright "star" appeared out of nowhere... but this time I
swear I saw some kind of trail behind it. It was stationary for
about 2 or 3 seconds... then it disappeared and re-appeared (by
my perspective) about 3 inches from the last position and this
time I know I saw a trail behind it. It made two more
appearances at different angles from it's last position and then
it was gone! The whole episode only took about 15 or 20 seconds
and I was just frozen there watching this. I didn't even
remember I had a camera and even if I did, I wouldn't have had
enough time to capture anything... besides, I couldn't take my
eyes off of what I was seeing.

I have spent some time creating an animation which comes pretty
close to what I saw and if you would like to see it... please
let me know where to send it to (email address etc...).

I will continue to take my late night walks with my camera and I
will update you with anything I find.

Thank you.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------

Chandler, Arizona Metallic Object Observed Around Jetairliner (Southwest=
 Airlines)

Date: August 10, 2004
Time: 5:40 p.m.

Message: My wife and I live in Chandler, Arizona, just south of
Phoenix. On August 10, 2004 at 5:40 pm we were on our back patio
looking north at an approaching thunderstorm. Thinking to get a
better view, we walked through our apartment to the front door
and went outside. As we looked north, towards Phoenix and Sky
Harbor Airport, we noticed what appeared to be a Southwest
Airlines jet flying from right to left, heading west, a common
thing to see. What happened next was NOT common. Approaching
rapidly towards the rear of the jet was a metallic object,
guessing to be approximately 30-40 feet in diameter, completely
round, with no visible means of propulsion or contrails. It
closed to within 50 feet or so of the tail of the jet, hovered
there (while keeping pace), then maneuvered to just off the
right side wing, where it hovered for about 10 seconds, then
moved forward out of our sight towards the front of the plane,
where the body of the plane kept it from our view, until we lost
sight of both in the distance.

Unfortunately we had no camera to record this, and it happened
over the space of about 2 minutes total. This plane had to have
left Sky Harbor at 5:35 or so, heading west, to be where it was
when we witnessed this, perhaps it could be identified and the
crew and passengers asked about what they saw. They HAD to have
seen this thing, since it was so close to them. It did bear a
remarkable resemblance to so-called "orbs" I've seen described
and pictured here and elsewhere. This is the absolute truth as
we saw it.

Additional Information:

Hi Brian,

Thanks for replying to my email. There's really very little I
can add to what was described earlier, except to amplify some
descriptive elements. The day was partly cloudy, with the usual
mass of clouds surrounding the "Rim" of mountains around
Phoenix. We had been watching the local news which mentioned a
large thunderstorm moving towards our area, so we thought to go
out back and see what was coming. There was indeed a huge mass
of black clouds coming towards us in the distance. To get a
better view we went out front.

The thunderstorm center was to our front, with a fine grayish
area to its left. It was against this gray background that we
witnessed the event. The jet was in a flat trajectory heading
west, which is usual for planes leaving Sky Harbor. I'll have to
use the term "lengths", meaning the length of the jet, as a way
to describe relative distances. We both looked first at the
approaching storm, then noticed the plane at about 2/3 of the
way up into the sky.

Simultaneously, we both saw, about 10 lengths behind the plane,
the 30 to 40 feet in diameter round metallic looking object,
flying at the same height as the jet, and closing position
rapidly. It took no more than 3 seconds for it to stop about 50
feet directly behind the tail of the plane, where it hovered for
about 20 seconds, then moved rapidly to a place just off the
right wing. It stayed there for about 10 seconds, then moved
forward so that the body of the plane blocked further sight of
it. We continued watching the plane until it disappeared in the
distance, not seeing anything further. Neither of us noticed any
military aircraft. Neither the jet nor the object left a visible
contrail. This happened on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 at 5:40-5:45
PM MST. I wish we'd had a camera or VideoCam that day, but we
were just going to look at a thunderstorm.

Thanks for hearing us out on this.

Thank you to the witness for the very interesting report. Sounds
like another close encounter with an aircraft.

---------------------------

Dawson Creek, B.C. Object Swerves Back And Forth

Date: August 11 2004
Time: Approx: 11:00 p.m.

Message: I am writing to report a sighting. On August 11 2004, I
was visiting my in-laws at there farm near Dawson Creek B.C. At
around 11:00 p.m. that evening, we decided to sit outside and
see if we could see any falling stars. (there was supposed to be
a meteor shower that night). After seeing a few, we were ready
to go inside when I suddenly saw this strange white light moving
across the sky. It was the same shape and size as a typical
star, but it was moving incredibly fast. At first I thought it
was another falling star....but it traveled across the sky
without disappearing and it changed its course repeatedly. I
pointed it out to my mother in law and she was already looking
at it with her mouth wide open. We called for my father in law
to see if he could see it and sure enough he could. It then
vanished over the horizon. We sat stunned for a minute. Then
from the same direction as the first...another one was
coming...this one did not change its course. It headed straight
for the first one at an even faster speed. No sound could be
heard...we believe we saw alien spacecraft.

Additional Information:

Hi Brian,

The sky was very clear that night. it had not been raining that
day. I don't recall seeing the moon that night though.

We watched the entire event (both sightings) for a total of
about 8 min...with a 1 or 2 min break between the two. It came
from the southwest and headed northeast. It was straight
overhead. When I first spotted it moving, it was traveling in a
straight course like an airplane, but I could see no flashing
lights nor could I hear any sounds....it also seemed much higher
than a typical plane would fly. It than began to swerve back and
forth mildly ( it looked like it was moving around something,
although we couldn't see anything else up there at the time) and
then moved down slightly then back up and then continued along
it's path.

The second one appeared shortly after and did not swerve..it
just followed the other one. The area we were in is quite
remote. The nearest airport is about 35 min away, highway
driving..no other houses are really close by. I do believe the
objects were at high altitude. No trail or other light was
visible from these objects. All I can really add is that they
both looked exactly like stars....the same size...a little
brighter...but they moved so fast...and the were visible for a
long time...we watched them go over the horizon.

Hope this helps!

Thank you very much to the witness for the report.

--------------------

Horshshoe Bay, Texas Cloud Shooting Out Different Colors

Date: Week of the 15th to the 21 first, 2004
Time: 2:00 p.m.

Hi Brian,

I wanted to tell you about something my husband and construction
crew saw the first of the week. I didn't think much about it
until I read about a cloud from filer files. Anyway, my husband,
came home after work and told me about an unusual cloud he saw
at work. He said the cloud was right over head at their
construction site in Horshshoe Bay, Texas - Matern Island. A
small island where they are building a house (very affluent
neighborhood, mostly hugh vacation homes). Anyway this cloud had
colors of light coming out of it. He said boy honey you would
like to have taken a picture of it. He said the colors were all
different colors and he said it wasn't a rainbow. He had never
seen a cloud like that before. But said it was very beautiful.
There are at least 7 worker, maybe more because I don't know who
all was at that location that day. I cant recall what day it was
and didn't think to ask him the time. Thanks.

Additional Information:

Hi Brian, I asked my husband about the cloud all the crew saw.
It was last week about 2:00 p.m., high in the sky with colors of
green, yellow, blue, he said several colors. He couldn't
remember what day, early in the week I think. I thought he told
me it wasn't cloudy.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-------------------------

Phoenix, Arizona Orbs And Chemtrails

HBCC UFO Note: The Chemtrail footage was taken on August 21,
2004 at 12:13 p.m.

Brian.

I have something new from this morning. It has been cloudy all
morning and I saw a break in the clouds so I thought I would
check out the sky to see if anything was up there. There was
too.

Around 10:50 a.m. a white orb was floating in from the East
about 10K-15K ft.high against the incoming storm front arriving
today. I put the camera on the tripod and tracked it until I
lost it in some thick clouds. I waited for the orb to come to a
break in the clouds, since they were moving that way I figured
it would come through the opening in the clouds, but it never
made it. I waited for 5 minutes to see if I can see the orb come
out somewhere else but the clouds thickened to where there were
no more breaks.

Several minutes later I went back outside to see if I can see it
and there it was hovering in the same place for several seconds
not moving an inch. It is very rare that these objects hover in
one spot for so long so I grabbed the tripod, aimed the camera
and saw that it was still there. While taping this orb the
clouds are passing by it very fast and the fact that I can still
see it as the clouds pass by says that this object is IN the
clouds.

I taped it for 5 to 7 minutes more until there were no more
breaks in the clouds and came in to send you the clip and
sighting story.

Thank You for your time Brian and say hello to all.

Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.

Video clips and pictures are c. 2004RichG.

Video clips can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1757

------------------------------

Wolseley, Saskatchewan Fast Moving Light

Date: August 24, 2004
Time: 9:18 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: No shaped determined - simply a fast moving
light.

Full Description of event/sighting: I stepped out our front door
at approx 9:15 p.m., Saskatchewan time to have a smoke. I like
to look up at the stars and especially tonight as we have not
had a clear sky for a couple of nights. I noticed a light in the
sky moving. The light was as large as an average star when
looking at it. What caught my attention was the speed in which
this light was moving. It was much faster than planes that I
have seen in night sky before.

It started out approximately 65 -70 degrees in the SE sky and
moved on a Northerly direction across the eastern sky. It did
not travel in a straight line, where if it started out at 60
degrees it moved in an arc to the north where it was last seen
in the NE. However it did not maintain a perfect arc, it would
moved slightly up or down at some points.

The other witness told me later that while he saw the light, he
also saw an irregular shape around it with a point on the top
side.

This light reminded me of a similar light I saw also in the NE
sky about 7 weeks ago. It appeared between to stars and only
appeared for 10 seconds and seemed to stop and then disappear.
And approximately 5 minutes later it appeared on the exact same
trajectory between the same two stars. It again disappeared
after 10 seconds.

Thanks.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------------

Fallon, Nevada Two Silver-White Disks

Date: August 25, 2004
Time: 11:50 a.m.

I was just outside trying to get pictures of the jets flying
over the house when I saw two UFOs flying in the opposite
direction in the flight path of the jets. The jets take off to
the north and then turn and fly east. When they fly over my
house they are going west to east. I heard them and then I ran
outside but I just missed them ( I couldn't find them in the
zoom) I was contemplating waiting for more (removed) when I
looked up directly overhead and saw what looked like two round
saucer-like objects heading west. They looked silver-white and
looked like disks with something hanging from the middle. One of
them was doing loops around the other. I called for my wife to
come out and she saw them as they faded from view. She also saw
one of them flying circles around the other.

The picture looks like jets coming at you but they are actually
moving away. I've seen standard military jets all my life and
these were not those!

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------------

Denver, Colorado Chemtrails And White Orb

Date:  August 25, 2004
Time: 11:30 a.m.

At 11:30 a.m. saw 4 planes dumping crap in our sky, obviously
filling in the sky between the natural clouds. The weather
report just before noon announced on partly cloudy skies. Now at
12:15, sky is almost completely filled in, 2 planes visible
dumping still. Air smells like nail polish, is burning my eyes
and throat when I go outside. Saw one white orb in one of the
chemtrails, around which the chemtrail disappeared, as if it had
been vacuumed up. These are very heavy dense chemtrails that are
spreading rapidly. What are we not to see? I've sent emails this
AM to Channel 7 (ABC) but expect no response on these chemtrails
of course. But have a great day. I slept all night, so did not
go out during the night.

Thank you to the witness for filling us in.


Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com
HBCC UFO RESEARCH Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/






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                         Strange Doings On Tunguska

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:52:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:34:56 -0400
Subject: Strange Doings On Tunguska



Source: Time Online

http://www.time.com/time/columnist/jaroff/article/0,9565,688585,00.html

Strange Doings on Tunguska

By Leon Jaroff

Amazingly, some people still believe the devastating Siberian
event was caused by space aliens

If any people are more gullible about Unidentified Flying
Objects than Americans, it's the Russians. And if any group of
professionals is more gullible than Russians about UFOs, it's
the journalists. This truism was confirmed again this month
when, around the world, wire services and other press outlets
straight-facedly reported a new claim that a UFO had been
involved in the great Tunguska catastrophe.

Tunguska? That's the then-uninhabited region in Siberia where in
1908 a mammoth explosion leveled and charred trees and killed
wildlife over an area of 800 square miles. That night in
northern Europe and western Russia, the skies glowed with an
eerie light and in London, for example, it was light enough
outside to read a newspaper. The lone human being in the area, a
trapper living near the periphery of the blast, was blown off
the porch of his shack, but survived. Had the explosion occurred
over London, say, or New York, the casualties would have been
counted in the hundreds of thousands.

Most scientists today believe that the Tunguska event was caused
by an asteroid or a comet that heated so rapidly upon plunging
into the atmosphere that it blew up some five miles above the
surface with an explosive force of 10 to 15 megatons. But that
conclusion is far too rational for Russians like scientist Yuri
Lavbin, who heads the Tunguska Space Phenomenon public state
fund. It was Lavbin who in July announced that he would lead an
expedition to Siberia and stated, "We intend to find proof that
not a meteorite but an extraterrestrial spaceship crashed with
the Earth."

Some might suggest that Lavbin was predisposed to making a
remarkable discovery. And that is precisely what happened. A
Russian scientific team headed by Lavbin scoured the Tunguska
site early in August and breathlessly announced that it had
found the remnants of an extraterrestrial spacecraft, in the
form of a large metallic block. After sending a 50 kilogram
chunk of the block to a laboratory for testing, Lavbin chose not
to await the results. "I can make an official announcement that
we were saved by some forces of a superior civilization," he
proclaimed. "They exploded this enormous meteorite headed toward
us with tremendous speed. Now this great object that caused the
meteorite to explode is found at last."

His announcement was greeted by loud raspberries from reputable
scientists. Interviewed by Space.com, British researcher Benny
Peiser, who runs the CCNet website, a scholarly forum devoted
largely to asteroid impacts and other potential natural threats,
called the Russian report "a rather stupid hoax." He was equally
critical of the press: "It's a rather sad comment on the current
state of anything-goes attitudes among some science
correspondents that such blatant rubbish is being reported."

All this came as no surprise to science writer James Oberg. In
his 1982 book, "UFOs and Outer Space Mysteries," he had traced
the origins of the Russian Tunguska UFO obsession to a science
fiction writer named Kazantsev, who wrote a story attributing
the mighty blast to an exploding nuclear power plant of a
spaceship from Mars. Other Russians took the bait. Astronomy
lecturer Feliks Zigel, who was also a flying saucer enthusiast,
became a spokesman for the "spaceship" theory of Tunguska, and a
scientist named Aleksey Zolotov, began claiming, almost annually
but without proof, that he had found radioactivity at the blast
site.

Oberg predicted that the Tunguska spacecraft story, in various
forms, would endure and that gullible members of the press would
continue to be hoodwinked by Russian UFOlogists. More than two
decades later, his prediction stands unchallenged.








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   Aug > Aug 27

              Re: UFO Triangle Formation Melbourne Australia -

From: Billy Booth <Ufocasebook.nul>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:59:44 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:37:32 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Triangle Formation Melbourne Australia -


>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:35:15 +1000
>Subject: Re: UFO Triangle Formation Melbourne Australia

>>From: John Auchettl <Praufo.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:25:40 -0400
>>Subject: UFO Triangle Formation Melbourne Australia


Today I rec'd video from down under, and you can access the
Melbourne video on my site here:

http://www.ufocasebook.com/melbournetriangle.html


Thanks,

B J







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               Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 04:45:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:49:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Warren


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:54:31 +0200
>Subject: Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:39:37 -0700
>>Subject: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

>>Source: The Daily Times

>>Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

>>By Debra Mayeux
>>The Daily Times

>There is a five page article by Scott Ramsey in the August MUFON
>UFO Journal.

>A very interesting article.

>And many thanks to Scott Ramsey, who has found a series of
>witnesses, after many years of research and high expenses, and
>his research is going on.

>Any comment from the List?

Gildas, Et Al,

Scott's efforts certainly don't go un-noticed, and his research
lends much credence to the Aztec Incident. His unrelenting
search for witnesses has become fruitful, and the verification
of the high power radar sites mentioned as far back as Frank
Scully's book has even the most ardent skeptics taking a second
look at Aztec!

Scott's dedication and fervor for finding the truth is much
appreciated, and methinks the best is yet to come!


Regards,

Frank Warren







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                  UFO Photo Taken With Cell Phone Is A Hoax

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:07:45 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:23:41 -0400
Subject: UFO Photo Taken With Cell Phone Is A Hoax



Dear friends:

It has been determined that the UFO photo taken with a cell
phone is a hoax perpetrated by a man who also claimed to have
had missing time after he had taken the image.

He photographed only a small brush of eucalyptus trees at some
distance and took advantage of the cell camera's low resolution
and blur effect caused by the heat of the sun.

The hoax was discovered by Brazilian UFO Magazine consultant and
astronomer Claudio Brasil. The result was corroborated by
Brazilian UFO Magazine consultant Rogerio Chola.

I should be sorry to give you the news, but, on the contrary, I
am glad. I should be sorry that we have one UFO photo less in
our files, but am glad that we have resolved a hoax!


All the best,

A. J.







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                   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 07:34:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:41:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind



Folks,

I submit the following here because it is just the kind of trend
that facilitates our ufological ignorance, so it's not
entirely off-topic.

-----

INVISIBLE BALLOT - A Review Of William Gazecki's New Film
Documentary Of The Same Name

By Alfred Lehmberg
www.AlienView.net


I am going to make a rather shameful disclosure to you, reader.
I've been casually disrespecting the foundations of a federal
republic I'd presumed (a result of ceaseless but duplicitous
inculcation) was in better shape than it was. And it is
decidedly not in good shape I have very fearfully discovered.
It is much, much more troubled than I would have dared think!

The shameful disclosure? I have never VOTED, sir or madam, not
at the State, Local, or Federal level. My last vote was for a
rally chairman in high school circa 1965.

Up until just recently, a fierce independent and ardent
individualist, I was rather of proud of that. I even thought I
could justify it.

No more.

Retired military, I too conveniently rationalized that I served
my country in other ways, never served in one stateside spot
long enough to feel responsible, and never got excited about the
choices I was offered, anyway! It always seemed to me that our
two party system only presented alternate heads of the same
beast. I still believe the latter to a degree. I digress.

What's changed? In a nutshell, it seems the electoral ballots we
cast in our elections - Local, State, And Federal, begin to fade
to an awful and seeming inexorable "invisibility", as we speak.
That's not a metaphor, folks. Our individual vote is dissolving
to an insubstantial nothingness - a valueless nothingness. An
insidious nothingness.

The ballots we cast in our elections, our exercise of rights in
what could be a glorious republic, have quietly - so without
appropriate fanfare!) begun to discorporate from a physical
reality that can be checked and verified - into an electronic
virtual reality that cannot be checked and verified. Electronic
TouchScreen Voting. It should stand the hair on the back of your
neck, reader!

I had always thought that the vote, as it was supposed to be
practiced in the United States of America, actually meant
something! I felt well served with that. Insulated.

In the fashion that ones vote was presumed recorded, tallied,
and otherwise counted - recounted if necessary, it was an action
taken by an individual in this country that actually moved a
counting tumbler, somewhere, in the direction that a 'voter' had
indicated that it should go - given the choices available to
make. That was the presumption. This electoral 'count', as
ultimately meaningless as it may have been, given the proscribed
choices, was effected by an action the 'individual' took - or
did not take. I felt safe not voting, given an egalitarian
system of some ethics in the process where an individual had a
snowball's chance to be heard, to have impact, however small.

A person, an individual, I'd always presumed, could participate
in the process of how they were governed, even if it was only an
illusion of participation. A vote DID count for something - an
either/or of limited choices - but a choice none the less! So I
thought!

This, very likely, may no longer be, remotely, the case, reader!
It may be that your effort taken to indicate a vote might be as
meaningless as a puff of flatulent air! Your individually
consequential vote may be in danger of being rendered - by
canted neo-cons one discovers - apart from the focus of the film
reviewed - into a complete illusion - even if it was only a
virtual illusion before.

Be that as it may, the always tenuous "popular" vote has likely
already been hijacked and is in the egregiously stealthy process
of being rendered meaningless - your will and choice negated to
a worthless exercise in pathetic futility!

Oscar Nominated Filmmaker William Gazecki has completed another
compelling documentary giving every indication that it is as bad
as all that! What Mr. Gazecki outlines - in a compelling montage
of vetted experts - is an outrage of pointed disrespect that is
bereft of all hyperbole!

Gazecki outlines a clear and active threat to any SEMBLANCE of
continuing to live in a free society for any one of us!
Additionally, he alludes to an unwarranted, unwelcome, and
unnecessary 'partisan' holding arbitrary sway - a monstrously
conflicted and non constructive 'intrusion' on that free society
- with regard to the biased and otherwise documented 'spiritual
convictions' of the, too few, 'owners'!

Who 'owns' democracy? Does not an 'owned' democracy cease to be?

Gazecki does not go into the neo-conic proprietary ownership
(near monopoly!) of our national voting mechanism in his film,
but it is well known. His contention, instead and even more
significant actually, is that a proprietary ownership of the
voting mechanism by ANY single private entity is a bad thing.
A VERY bad thing!

Very bad.

Why is that, you ask? Well, here's just a taste:

Because it doesn't 'work'! Because it can't be checked! Because
it is too needlessly, and duplicitously, complicated! Because it
is needlessly or horrifically expensive! Because there's no
paper record produced by it! Because it renders a vote "recount"
impossible and meaningless! Because there is no indisputable
audit trail for the maintenance of the hardware and software!
Because it is "overwhelming" to most poorly trained election
workers! Because some of the persons officiating the corporate
aspect of it are criminals! Because it is effortlessly easy to
stealthily defeat or hack! Because there is no independent
oversight! Because it is difficult to set up and run! Because
its software is patched with unauthorized and undocumented
'fixes'! Because we can't INSPECT the nature of the software
code - which can say anything - or the hardware machines, which
can be secretly TOLD to say anything)!

Because it is turning our system of government wholly over into
the hands of non-accountable and elitist corporate sociopaths!

Enough?

At best, all this is hobbling and socially regressive! At worst
it's culturally dangerous. A short detour to the cruelest
fascism! Among too many other valid criticisms to list, it is
socially static and unrewarding, and it is without any respect
for the individual concerned about the quality of his individual
vote - its biggest injury/insult, in my opinion. Your civil
rights are discounted, nullified, and retired! You - you - are
betrayed!

This evil betrayal of our republic spits in your face, reader.
Feel rankly dreadful viscous-ness drool down your cheek and into
your open mouth... with my apologies.

Sorry if that revolted your sensibilities. It had to be said.
Everybody take a deep breath. I won't do that again.

Gazecki's 90 minute film, a concerned clarion cry of cultural
warning, provides the individual with a cogent stream of
competent professional people, university professors, United
States Representatives, Election workers, Investigative
journalists, systems engineers, research consultants, software
experts - and significant others et al - ALL suggesting a very
strong potential for a dire threat to our representative
government and free republic! No hype and histrionics here, sir
or madam!

In one instance, for example, a radical conservative owned the
proprietary rights to the suspect and dodgy touch-screen
electronic voting machines, that put him in office! Presuming
ethical behavior - which has a damned good chance of going the
other way, and south, fast... good reader - is not remotely
wise, forgetting that it is a clear conflict of rational
interest that cannot be allowed, or remotely tolerated, from
anyone! Christ himself! Verily!

Allowing the henhouse keys to indicted foxes already raping
this country is patent lunacy, folks! You'd stop it if you
could, if you knew about it, and you can. I'd mentioned that
some of the key officiators were convicted confidence men,
history will look back on you reader, and wonder... "What the
hell was she THINKING"!?! Gazecki makes no sociological call on
any of this, himself, remember, but showcases the facts for
ready inspection by the viewer, regardless. In all honesty
this time, he reports; you decide.

I'd suggest that this abomination of biased CONTROL through our,
public - you can bet we paid for it - voting software and
hardware, by an extremely canted and partisan minority - is an
affront to our nation constitutionally, morally and ethically,
and it is a clear disregard of the public interest that should
otherwise be served!

That's why I'm voting this time, for the first time ever, folks,
"absentee", so there is a paper record - recommended for all
reading this review - which can still be counted and remains
bereft of the 'Ballot Invisibility' William Gazecki very
convincingly describes in his landmark film. My 'vote', that
I had shamefully taken for granted, becomes precious to me
when it is threatened to become a complete charade!

The bastards in non-elected leadership should have remained
content just dictating the overall choice I could make. They err
in trying to absolve my choice completely. Al-Qaeda is
preferable to these SOBs!

If you've never voted, reader, or are comfortable with aggregate
election machinery that is privately owned, secretly officiated
and arbitrarily controlled... get a copy of this film before not
a shred of democracy remains! VOTE, friends and neighbors! Now
more than ever.

Oh - the fix? That's easy!

Faster ain't always better, folks! What price 'fast' if you
can't trust it? We take the time and spend less money, in the
long run, to do a hands-on job - with a troglodyte's paper
trail! RIGHT! A hanging chad is at least VISIBLE, friend! It
trumps an "Invisible Ballot" seven ways to Sunday! Lastly,
Congress made this happen, folks! They can make it "un-happen"!
Sweat the bastards! I'm going to!

See - it's simple. We got into it, simply, in the dark. We can
get out of it, simply (using old, verifiable, technology!) in
the light. Too bad if heads have to roll. We'd have had too many
real heads roll. Innocent heads, later on, allowing this
insanity to continue.....

Contact www.williamgazecki.com or

http://www.invisibleballots.com/

for more info and details. If you saw only one video this year,
I've no doubt that this is the one it should be...

Read on, but vote absentee.

alienview.nul
www.AlienView.net








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                     Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 03:42:41 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:42:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo - Hatch


>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:01:25 +1000
>Subject: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo

>View The Newest UFO Photo to have landed on AUFORNs desk:

>http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/contentpage.html


Hello Diane:

I couldn't find the photo, just lots of links. Can you just give
us the URL straight to the photo?


Thanks

- Larry









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                          Re: Moon Questions - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:54:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:45:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - King

>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:27:37 -0400
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:20:31 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

><snip>


>A satellite in geosynchronous orbit around the Earth would not
>see a moon base when it was turned away from the satellite, and
>a satellite in geosynchronous orbit around the moon (and I'm not
>really sure of the feasibility of that) would put the moon
>between it and the Earth as the moon rotated around the Earth.
>The goal is a valid one, but I think it will involved a series
>of satellites orbiting the moon.

>As I seem to recall, our failure to go back to the moon or spend
>a lot of resources in performing in depth analysis is based on a
>lack of interest when compared to the outer planets.  For many
>in NASA I get the impression that they believe we've already
>been there and they have to look outward, and a moon base has
>never really been a topic of discussion (since the late 50's
>when the military had a serious study generated).  It's also not
>fair to say that we've completely ignored the moon, with several
>non-manned satellites sent to study facets of the moon over the
>past two decades.

>I've seen no indication from credible sources that there have
>been any warnings, or concerns about warnings, in regard to
>returning to the moon.


Steve,

If a satellite was placed in geosynchronous orbit above a spot
on the the moon western edge as seen from earth, wouldn't it
always remain in that spot as seen from earth?, I'm probably not
thinking right on this, but it seems correct. I'm not sure
either that lunar geosynchronous orbit is possible. But it seems
plausible...

I have read the same comments you have regarding the lack of
interest in returning to the moon... hence my initial post. I
agree that NASA seems to think we've "got the t-shirt". True
perhaps. These are just speculation. But speculation is often
the subject of posts in this list, and I can see value in it for
several UFO-related reasons.

With the money being spent on the ISS, the moon would seem to
provide a more stable, cost-effective, and spacious "platform"
for much of the same science...and it is already there.

I completely agree on the "warning". That was a joke. I hope. :)

Groping feebly...with kind regards,


Kyle







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                         Re: Moon Questions - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:00:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:46:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Groff


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:27:37 -0400
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:20:31 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

><snip>

>>If such a satellite was set into an equatorial geosynchronous
>>orbit, perhaps we could use it to maintain communications with a
>>base on the far side, as it would always be "visible" (RF-wise)
>>from here, like the lunar disk itself.

<snip>

>Hi Kyle,

>A satellite in geosynchronous orbit around the Earth would not
>see a moon base when it was turned away from the satellite, and
>a satellite in geosynchronous orbit around the moon (and I'm not
>really sure of the feasibility of that) would put the moon
>between it and the Earth as the moon rotated around the Earth.
>  The goal is a valid one, but I think it will involved a series
>of satellites orbiting the moon.

Hi Steve, Kyle

Since the Moon's rotation and orbital period are the same, it
always has the same face pointing at us. If a satellite were put
into luno-synchronous orbit, it too would stay in the same
location relative to the Earth and would not necessarily be
blocked by the moon. The Earth itself, however, would rotate
away from the satellite so it would require a few receiving
stations to gather data from the satellite.

If a satellite were put on the far side of the Moon it might
require a few relay satellites (or stations) depending on the
altitude of the orbit.

Terry








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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Reason

From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:12:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:47:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Reason


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:48:48 -0400
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>No, the report is the report. It must be assumed true and
>accurate to some degree. Analogous to innocent until proven
>guilty. The skeptic must show where the report is wrong in such
>a way as to make the "corrected" report agree with an proposed
>explanation.

I must admit I find this rather confusing. Why is it necessary
for skeptics in particular to prove anything at all about a
report? Surely what matters is whether a report can be accounted
for using only known entities? (Entities in the philosophical,
rather than the extraterrestrial sense, that is.)

In this case, the important question is surely whether the
report can be explained in terms of known human error processes,
such as visual perception errors. If it can, then Occam's Razor
requires us to adopt this explanation unless further data become
available. I don't see why the responsibility for doing this
should devolve on to any particular group of people.

On the face of it, mistaking small, slow objects for large,
fast-moving ones constitutes one of the more straightforward
visual perception errors. My little collection of UFO books
don't contain enough information for me to see if this is a
viable explanation in this case.  I found something about nearby
mountains being used to "triangulate" positions and distances,
but it isn't clear to me exactly what this is supposed to mean.


Cathy







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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:04:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:48:53 -0400
Subject: Re:  Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:52:46 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:08:38 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:09:09 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind


John,

>I don't think we should ignore the Arnold sighting just because
>nothing can be proved one way or the other. I do think,
however, >that in view of the fact that it was a single-witness
sighting, >that not too much weight should be given to it.

That is a whole other argument - albeit a dubious one; Arnold's
was not a single-witness sighting - from the one you were
advancing. In the original one, we were to believe that the
sighting was potentially explainable even by the most far-
 fetched hypotheses (using the word very loosely here; we're
really talking frantic wing-flapping, in this instance in the
most literal sense).

Now, however, you're shifting ground and acting more like the
guy who goes on with his life without heeding Claim X, thus (by
Marcello Truzzi's formulation) the guy with nothing to prove.
But of course until I challenged you, you were making claims
about the case - as you did as well in the Magonia review of my
Strange Skies book, where you chided me for failing to accept
assorted pelicanist versions of sightings, prominently including
Arnold's.

It is also a bizarre claim to be made by a Magonian. You have
spent years making negative claims about UFO reports and
witnesses. Your sudden retreat into agnosticism-bordering-on-
 indifference is, shall we say, surprising. Or maybe not, since
convenience and shifting ground play such a notable role in
pelicanist polemic.

>>What is an "extraordinary claim"? What is "extraordinary
>>evidence"? And even if you can define such (the terms, of
>>course, are inherently relative, subjective, and elusive), why
>>do you need "extraordinary" evidence to prove an "extraordinary"
>>claim, and not just good, ordinary evidence?

>What is being claimed - by some people - in this case is that
>Arnold actually saw some aircraft traveling at supersonic speed
>at a time when no such craft existed anywhere on Earth. I think
>most people would regard that as an extraordinary claim.

Huh? UFO reports are certainly interesting, but they were made
before Arnold's sighting, and millions have been made since. Far
from being extraordinary, they are not even that unusual
anymore. "Extraordinary" is simply an adjective you're using so
that you can, I take it, dismiss the report because poor Ken
Arnold was unable to produce wreckage, machinery, or bodies.

Certain theories (such as Klass's superplasma, Meade Layne's
etheric entities, Easton's supersonic pelicans) may arguably be
termed extraordinary, but UFO sightings themselves hardly fit
that definition. Whatever UFOs may or may not be, they are an
ordinary enough phenomenon of general human experience.

 >>Marcello [Truzzi] believed that the individual who has nothing
>>to proveis the one who has said nothing at all. (In effect,
>>this is the individual who expresses no judgment except not to
>>involve himself in the controversy and to go on with his or her
>>life and work without heeding Claim X.) But as Marcello
>>emphatically argued, a skeptic has as much obligation as the
>>proponent to prove his assertion. Thus, Harney, who has made an
>>assertion above, must now establish, via good evidence and
>>logical argument, that the report was incorrect. He can't just
>>make that apparently unfalsifiable (and - more to the point -
>>deeply convenient) claim and let it go at that, much as he
>>wants to.

>If you had actually bothered to read my post you would see that
>I do not assert that any particular interpretation of the Arnold
>case is incorrect; I said that different interpretations were
>_not irrational_. Of course, either all of them are wrong or one
>of them is right, but I don't pretend to know which.

Ah, the sudden, convenient conversion to agnosticism, where one
idea (as long as it does not involve a genuine anomaly) is as
good as another.

>Could you please cite the posting or publication in which I
>declare "that since UFOs don't exist, Arnold _must_ have been
in >error"? You are making things up again, Jerry, just as some
>people do to spice up unexciting UFO reports.

Nice try, John. As you of course know well, you are not going to
do something so bone-headed as to make explicit such an
assertion. It is, however, implicit in just about everything
you've written that I've read, on this List or in Magonia. You
have a fatal, telling attraction to weak, hard-to-impossible-to-
 support "prosaic" explanations, as opposed to reasoned,
balanced assessments which leave open the option that when all
else has failed (as certainly appears to be the case with the
Arnold sighting) a true anomaly, possibly an interesting one,
awaits.

By the way, please don't bore me or insult our collective
intelligence by pretending to believe that I insist that all
ostensible UFO reports are of true anomalies. Even the book you
reviewed recently documents quite the opposite, and then there's
a large paper trail preceding that book's publication. On the
other hand, I would be interested in learning which UFO reports
you regard as genuinely intriguing and so far resistant to
persuasive prosaic accounting. If any, of course. I'm afraid
that if you take Easton's pelicans seriously, you'll believe
anything, but I'd be pleased to be proved wrong.


Jerry Clark







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                              Buying UFO Books

From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:13:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:55:19 -0400
Subject: Buying UFO Books


Greetings List,

Since I have bought UFO and SETI books from several hundred
different shops and booksellers, I thought it might be a good idea
to exchange some thoughts on various sources of books (with a
particular emphasis on my experience in the United Kingdom).

(As always, I have at least one ulterior motive for this post.
I am on holiday in New York this week and would welcome some
suggestions for some used bookstores to browse whilst out and
about seeing the sights with my wife. I have read about "The
Strand"

http://www.strandbook.com

but am not sure where to go after that...)


A. Bookstores in the UK

In terms of physical bookshops, there are several stores in
London that specialise in esoteric literature. Two bookstores
stand out. They are:

(a) Watkins Books: Very central (just outside Leicester
Square). Extensive selection of new UFO books upstairs (better
than London's largest mainstream bookstores - Borders, Books
Etc, Foyles etc). A selection of used UFO books and discounted
books downstairs. The number of used books seems to fluctuate
wildly. Sometimes they will have several large bookshelves
stacked with relatively rare UFO books, but in the last year or
two it has been more common for Watkins to merely have a shelf
or two of the more standard used UFO books.

Watkins Books Ltd,
19 Cecil Court,
Charing Cross Road,
London, WC2N 4EZ.
Tel: 020 7836 2182
http://www.watkinsbooks.com


(b) Atlantis Bookshop: Well known esoteric and new age
bookstore near the British Museum. I'm afraid that I've never
been that impressed with their selection UFO books. Their UFO
books (all second hand) fit in one small bookcase that is only
about waist high. Occasionally they will have a relatively rare
item, but boy oh boy they will charge through the nose for it.

Atlantis Bookshop
48a Museum Street
London, WC1A 1LY
Tel: 020 7405 2120
http://www.atlantisbookshop.demon.co.uk

Several general used bookstores in London have fairly good
selections of UFO books. The main concentration of used
bookstores in London is on Charing Cross road. Most of the
better second hand stores are at the southern end (just outside
Leicester Square and near Watkins bookstore). The northern end
of Charing Cross road (near the junction with Oxford Street and
Tottenham Court Road) is now dominated by the larger bookstore
chains (Borders, Books Etc, Foyles etc), which have rather
limited selections of UFO books. Just north of the middle of
Charing Cross road (i.e. just up from the junction with
Shaftsbury Avenue), there are also several bookstores selling
discounted/remaindered books.

My personal favourite of the general used bookstores in London
is the Book and Comic Exchange in Notting Hill. It has a
selection of UFO books almost as large as that in the specialist
UFO bookstores, but at much lower prices and with a more rapid
turnover. It is a cheap and cheerful bookstore that often does
not seem to realise the relative scarcity of some of the UFO
books it sells.

Outside London, the one esoteric bookstore that I have found
particularly useful is The Inner Bookshop in Oxford.

The Inner Bookshop,
111 Magdalen Road,
Oxford, OX4 1RQ.
Tel: 01865 245301
http://www.innerbookshop.com

That shop has:

(a) a better selection of second hand UFO books than either
Watkins or Atlantis, and

(b) a good selection of new UFO books, quite a few at discount
prices.

One town in the UK deserves a special mention.

Hay-on-Wye (near the border between Wales and England) has made
itself into a tourist attraction by becoming a town full of
second hand bookstores. Although none of those bookstores
specialises in UFO or esoteric books, several of those stores
have interesting collections of UFO books. I have found a number
of elusive UFO books there. If you love rummaging in second hand
bookstores, Hay-on-Wye is the place to go. (On the other hand
if, like some of my friends, you think second hand bookstores
are a smelly waste of time then don't bother going there!)

A useful guidebook to second hand bookstores throughout the
United Kingdom is produced by, and available from, Skoob Books
(which is also a large second hand bookstore with a reasonably
extensive selection of UFO/esoteric books, at slightly above
average prices).

Skoob Books,
10 Brunswick Centre,
(near Russell Square tube station),
London WC1N 1AE.
Tel: 020 7278 8760
http://www.skoob.com/

The Skoob guide (available in their bookstore and on their
website) is basically simply a list of bookstores with their
addresses and a short outline of their specialities. The content
seems to have been largely provided by the individual bookstores
rather than being independently written. More fun and
independent were the Drif guidebooks to second hand bookshops of
the British Isles, written by a somewhat eccentric chap that
obviously had a love/hate relationship with second hand
bookstores (with most of the reviews castigating the relevant
shop and/or its owner). Never exactly known for their accuracy,
the Drif guidebooks are now rather out of date.

An online guide to second hand bookstores in London and the rest
of the United Kingdom is available at the following link:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4824/uk-lond.htm

Also useful is the Yellow Pages website, which can be used to
search for the addresses and telephone number of second hand
bookstores in a selected area within the UK. The relevant
website is at:

http://www.yell.com

A useful website for getting maps of the above shops (and other
locations in London and the rest of the UK) is
http://www.streetmap.co.uk . Simply enter the relevant postcode
to get a map.

B. Internet purchases in (or from) the UK

In my experience buying UFO books online is less enjoyable than
rummaging in second hand bookstores but is far more efficient
and effective. The bulk of the UFO books I own were bought via
the Internet.

Apart from purchases of new books from the usual suspects
(Amazon.com etc), I have found Ebay a surprisingly good source
of UFO books. Of course, you have to have the patience to wait
for an auction of books of interest to come along (a problem
that can be reduced by using the email notification function on
Ebay) and then wait whilst the auction progresses. This hassle
is worth it. UFO books are commonly sold on Ebay that I have
never seen in UK shops and/or at a small fraction of the price
that they sell for in the UK. I have bought collections of 10-20
relatively scarce books from Ebay sellers in the USA for the
price that would be charged for just one of those books in a
shop in the UK.

A wide range of cheap second hand UFO books is also available on
individual sellers on Half.com, which does not involve waiting
for auctions to close. Unfortunately, at present Half.com is not
officially available to purchasers outside the USA. Credit cards
registered outside the USA cannot be used to pay for books on
Half.com. My limited purchases on half.com (about 20-30) have
been reliant on contacts in the USA that have been kind enough
to receive funds from me via Paypal, pay for the books on
Half.com for me, take shipment of the books and then reship them
on to me.

More straightforward are purchases via Abebooks.com. The
Abebooks.com website

http://www.abebooks.com

allows buyers to search the inventories of a large number of
second hand bookstores (or at least more professional
booksellers). I have found this to be the most effective and
efficient way to find elusive UFO books. Of course, these
sellers are more likely to realise when they are selling a
relatively scarce books than the average Ebay seller, and this
will be reflected in the charge for the book. Often, in my
experience, the asking price for a scarce UFO book on
Abebooks.com is 5-20 times the price that I have bought the same
book elsewhere.

The same benefits and problems exist to an even greater extent
with specialist booksellers on the Internet (such as Ufomind /
Aliens on Earth) or mail-order (e.g. Arcturus). Both of those
specialist booksellers are based in the USA. The nearest that
the UK has to such specialist online/mail-order booksellers is
Spacelink Books, run by Lionel Beer

http://www.spacelink.fsworld.co.uk/

Lionel produces rather infrequent lists of his stock (some of
which are available on his website). Those lists are not
terribly extensive but include the occasional bargain (usually
remaindered stock) and the occasional scarce item.


C. Shipping from the USA to Europe

As will be apparent from the above, I have found that most of
the more elusive UFO books are much more readily and cheaply
available from sellers in the USA and Canada than from
bookstores and individuals in the United Kingdom. Unfortunately,
shipment of books from the USA to the UK by most of the standard
methods is not cheap.

There would be little point in buying collections of UFO books
from Ebay sellers in the USA for a few dollars if it were
necessary to pay 50-100 dollars for shipping. This is where I
become a bit evangelical. There is no need to pay such high
shipping fees. The US Postal service offers a shipping service
called "M-bags" which is rather slow (about 6-8 weeks to get to
the UK), but is extremely cheap. (This method of shipping is
similar to book rate mail which is available within the USA.
Although book rate mail per se is not available for
international shipments, M-bags are a very similar service for
shipping internationally.)

The minimum charge of about 10 dollars covers M-bag shipment of
up to 11 lbs of books. I've had collections of 30-40 UFO books
shipped from the USA to the UK for about 20 dollars. This is
under a quarter of the cost of the next cheapest method of
shipment I've used.

It seems that many US Post Office workers have not heard of M-
bags. I've had several Ebay sellers tell me that their local
post office worker had been in the job for 20+ years and never
heard of them before. (I've also dealt with Ebay sellers that
have been told, incorrectly, in one post office that M bags can
only be used to ship to military bases overseas, only to post
the books to me by M bag without any problem in another post
office in the same town). A little bit of persistence is
sometimes required to make the postal workers find out how to
send an M-bag shipment.

Shipping by M bag involves little (if any) extra effort by the
seller in the USA. The seller merely boxes the books as normal
and asks at the USPS post office to ship by M bag. The post
office will then put the box into a canvas sack (the "M-bag")
and the seller merely has to fill in a shipping label which is
tied around the neck of the sack.

I've probably had 600-700+ UFO books shipped from the USA,
largely by M-bag. By using M-bag shipping, those books have been
cheaper to obtain than UFO books I've bought in shops in the
United Kingdom or had shipped from sellers within Europe.

Paying many private sellers in the USA (e.g. Ebay sellers) is
easier for bidders in the UK now that the use of Paypal is
becoming more widespread. As many of you probably already now,
Paypal can be used by individuals as an easy means to allow
payment by credit card. Many individuals that are selling books
on Ebay are not operating businesses that accept credit cards.
However, increasingly those individuals are registered with
Paypal.com and can accept payments made via that service that
the buyer can charge to his credit card. Similarly, Paypal can
be used by buyers in the UK to buy items from individuals on
this List that sell a few items to fund their research, e.g.
Wendy Connors now helpfully accepts Paypal payments for her
excellent Audio History CDs.


D. Libraries

Although not strictly within the remit of an email about buying
UFO books, I should also at least mention obtaining books on
loan via libraries. Although local public libraries in the UK
tend to have limited numbers of books on UFOs, each such library
allows readers to order books from other libraries in the UK via
an inter-library loan scheme for a nominal charge. This is by
far the cheapest way to read scarce UFO books. I used to use
this scheme frequently a few years ago when I read science
fiction books rather than UFO books. I found that if the book I
requested via the inter-library loan scheme was in print and not
easily available from another library, the local library that I
placed my request with would often purchase a copy of the
relevant book. The relatively small library in my home town
consequently ended up with one of the best collections of
science fiction books that I've seen in any library! I'm not
sure whether libraries would be so quick to buy relatively
expensive UFO books such as Dick Hall's UFO Evidence Volume II
or Jerry Clark's Encyclopedia. Perhaps John Rimmer would know??


E. Lists of UFO bookstores

Other existing lists of UFO bookstores include the following:

1. List by CUFOS (rather short list, emphasis on
USA/International):

http://www.cufos.org/bookstores.html

2. I could have sworn that there was a reasonably extensive (if
somewhat out of date) list of contact details for UK UFO
booksellers on the ufoinfo.com website, but I can't find the
relevant page on that website at the moment. When I'm back home
and have access to my own notes/computer, I'll find the relevant
link and email it (and, if time permits, a more extensive
version of this email, particularly if others within the UK
provide some input) to Joe McGonagle's Ufologyinuk list.


Kind Regards,

Isaac Koi







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   Aug > Aug 27

                            The Price Of Secrecy

From: Dante Rosati <dante.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:02:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:03:14 -0400
Subject: The Price Of Secrecy


Source: Wired News

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,64731,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1

<snip>

"During the 2003 fiscal year, the federal government spent more
than $6.5 billion securing classified information, according to
a new "Secrecy Report Card" from OpenTheGovernment.org, a
coalition of government watchdog and civil liberties groups.

That's an increase of more than $800 million from the previous
year, according to the group, and a nearly $2 billion jump since
2001. But it's only a best guess, really; the report card's
accounting doesn't include a penny from the Central Intelligence
Agency, which keeps even its overall budget classified."

<snip>






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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:12:33 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:07:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Ledger


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:52:46 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:08:38 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>Those who are interested must use their judgement to assess how
>accurate they think Arnold's report might have been.

The fact is John, there would have been no one else that Arnold
could have had as a passenger in his Callair that day, who could
have been better qualified to say what Arnold encountered.
Arnold was in his element and was the expert witness. Who else
would you suggest?


Don Ledger








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                          Secrecy News -- 08/27/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:24:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:10:54 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/27/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 76
August 27, 2004


**      US CONTINUES TO LEAD WORLD IN ARMS SALES (CRS)
**      NEW CRS REPORTS ON SECRECY POLICY
**      NEW CRS REPORTS ON INTELLIGENCE POLICY
**      REMOVING TERRORIST SANCTUARIES (CRS)
**      SENATOR ROBERTS' INTELLIGENCE REFORM BILL
**      FIRSTGOV FEATURES SECRECY NEWS


US CONTINUES TO LEAD WORLD IN ARMS SALES (CRS)

The United States led the world in the sale of conventional
weapons for the eighth year in a row, according to a report
yesterday from the Congressional Research Service.

"From 2000-2003, the United States made $35.8 billion in arms
transfer agreements with developing nations, in constant 2003
dollars," according to the report, which also noted that overall
arms sales declined substantially in 2003.

The CRS report, authored by analyst Richard F. Grimmett, is
revised and published annually. It is based in part on
unspecified U.S. government data.

"Grimmett's annual report is a definitive source for basic
statistics and analysis of trends in global arms transfers,"
said Matthew Schroeder of the FAS Arms Sales Monitoring Project.

CRS reports are not made directly available to the public. A
copy was obtained by FAS.

See "Conventional Arms Transfers to Developing Nations, 1996-
2003," August 26, 2004 (94 pages, 2.4 MB PDF file):

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32547.pdf


NEW CRS REPORTS ON SECRECY POLICY

New, previously unpublished Congressional Research Service
reports on secrecy policy include the following:

"Secrecy Versus Openness: New Proposed Arrangements for
Balancing Competing Needs," updated August 26, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RS21895.pdf

"The Protection of Classified Information: The Legal Framework,"
updated August 5, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RS21900.pdf


NEW CRS REPORTS ON INTELLIGENCE POLICY

New, previously unpublished Congressional Research Service
reports on intelligence policy include:

"Senate Select Committee on Intelligence: Term Limits and
Assignment Limitations," August 12, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS21908.pdf

"Intelligence Community Reorganization: Potential Effects on DOD
Intelligence Agencies," August 6, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32515.pdf

"Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) Programs:
Issues for Congress," updated August 4, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32508.pdf

"Information Warfare and Cyberwar: Capabilities and Related
Policy Issues," updated July 19, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL31787.pdf

It is the policy of the Congressional Research Service and the
current congressional leadership to block direct public access
to CRS reports like these.


REMOVING TERRORIST SANCTUARIES (CRS)

U.S. efforts to shut down terrorist enclaves around the world
are examined in another unpublished Congressional Research
Service report, obtained by Secrecy News.

"The 9/11 Commission identified six primary regions that serve
or could serve as terrorist sanctuaries. These included Western
Pakistan and the Pakistan-Afghanistan border region; southern or
western Afghanistan; the Arabian Peninsula, especially Saudi
Arabia and Yemen, and the nearby Horn of Africa, including
Somalia and extending southwest into Kenya; Southeast Asia, from
Thailand to the southern Philippines to Indonesia; West Africa,
including Nigeria and Mali; and European cities with expatriate
Muslim communities."

"In all of these regions, the United States and its allies have
mounted campaigns to deny safe havens for terrorists. This
report analyzes current U.S. policies aimed at closing down
sanctuaries in each of these countries and regions in light of
the 9/11 Commission recommendations."

See "Removing Terrorist Sanctuaries: The 9/11 Commission
Recommendations and U.S. Policy," August 10, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32518.pdf


SENATOR ROBERTS' INTELLIGENCE REFORM BILL

Senator Pat Roberts, chairman of the Senate Intelligence
Committee, this week unveiled his vision of a reformed,
restructured intelligence community. The controversial proposal
would establish a national intelligence director and essentially
eliminate the Central Intelligence Agency.

The actual text of Sen. Roberts' draft bill has not been made
widely available. It may be found here (139 pages, 240 KB PDF
file) (thanks to J):

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2004_cr/roberts-911nspa.pdf

The bill includes a lukewarm endorsement of intelligence budget
disclosure (section 131), starting after Fiscal Year 2005, that
falls short of the 9/11 Commission recommendation on the topic.


FIRSTGOV FEATURES SECRECY NEWS

"Whatever you want or need from the U.S. government, it's here
on FirstGov.gov."

http://www.firstgov.gov/

FirstGov.gov, which is "the U.S. government's official web
portal," purports to offer the most comprehensive search engine
and index of U.S. government publications.

Remarkably, its definition of U.S. government information
includes the Secrecy News archive, as well as much of the
Federation of American Scientists web site.

Secrecy News is not, um, a U.S. government publication. So how
does it come to be indexed in FirstGov.gov? A site policy
statement explains:

"In rare instances, FirstGov.gov links to websites that are not
government-owned or government-sponsored if these websites
provide government information and/or services in a way that is
not available on an official government website."

Which is precisely the point.


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691







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   Aug > Aug 27

                         Re: Moon Questions - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:54:49 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:13:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Ledger


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:27:37 -0400
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:20:31 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

<snip>

>As for being "warned off", Arthur Clarke may have pegged it
>after all: "All these worlds are yours except (the
>Moon?)... Attempt no (more?)landings there". :)

Actually it was Jupiter's satellite Europa that was referred to
in that "warning", not our Moon.

Don Ledger









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              CCCRN News: Formation Reports 8 & 9 - Matsqui, BC

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:07:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:14:41 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Formation Reports 8 & 9 - Matsqui, BC



CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

August 27, 2004

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________

FORMATION REPORTS #8, 9 - MATSQUI, BRITISH COLUMBIA

Two more formations, one a circle with two attached crescents
and the other resembling an Egyptian ankh symbol, in corn. Seen
by local resident while sky diving (during takeoff of plane) in
early August. Not far from location of the two corn formations
last year at Abbotsford (plus the third farther east at
Agassiz). Initial aerial photos of the first formation are
posted on the web site (not yet available for second formation).
Investigation in progress by CCCRN British Columbia. Further
details pending. These are the eighth and ninth reported
formations for 2004.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an e-mail with either
Subscribe CCCRN News or Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the subject
line to: cccrnnews.nul

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, media and scientists

c. CCCRN, 2004







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              Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:45:01 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:17:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Friedman


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 04:45:44 -0700
>Subject: Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:54:31 +0200
>>Subject: Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:39:37 -0700
>>>Subject: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

>>>Source: The Daily Times

>>>Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

>>>By Debra Mayeux
>>>The Daily Times

>>There is a five page article by Scott Ramsey in the August MUFON
>>UFO Journal.

>>A very interesting article.

>>And many thanks to Scott Ramsey, who has found a series of
>>witnesses, after many years of research and high expenses, and
>>his research is going on.

>>Any comment from the List?

>Gildas, Et Al,

>Scott's efforts certainly don't go un-noticed, and his research
>lends much credence to the Aztec Incident. His unrelenting
>search for witnesses has become fruitful, and the verification
>of the high power radar sites mentioned as far back as Frank
>Scully's book has even the most ardent skeptics taking a second
>look at Aztec!

>Scott's dedication and fervor for finding the truth is much
>appreciated, and methinks the best is yet to come!


I have spent quite a bit of time with Scott both in New Mexico
and in North Carolina. He is objective, careful, persistent and
willing to put his money where his mouth is.

We surely could use more people like him in ufology.

He travels a lot and has always responded rapidly to calls. He
goes for facts and data and has demolished anti-Aztec efforts by
a number of debunkers.

He certaily convinced me, to my surprise, that something really
did happen there.


Stan Friedman







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                       UFOs Reported At Dryden Ontario

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:26:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:59:21 -0400
Subject: UFOs Reported At Dryden Ontario


Source: Fort Francis Times Online

http://www.fftimes.com/index.php/7/2004-08-27/18127

UFO sightings reported at Dryden
August 27, 2004

Dryden, Ont. (CP)

It's a bird. It's a plane. It's a UFO?

The manager of the Dryden Regional Airport wants to get to the
bottom of reports of unidentified flying objects in the area.

George Friesen said yesterday that he has requested a checklist
from NAV Canada on the subject and "has a few phone calls to
reply to" following a report of a UFO sighting in the Dryden
area July 12.

NAV Canada provides air navigation services used by airports,
airlines, and aircraft operators across Canada.

The Dryden-area UFO sighting is posted on www.hbccufo.com - a
website that reportedly represents the Canadian UFO research
community.

The post said at least three Dryden-area people witnessed "low
altitude bright lights tracking across the sky."

One person reported seeing the lights on three-consecutive
nights, as well as a V-shaped metallic craft during the day
"moving through the sky, very slowly."

Area police services said they received no calls of suspected
UFOs in July.

Friesen said his interest is both personal and professional.

"If something occurs near an airport, professionally we are
obliged to report it," he said.

While working in Lynn Lake, Man. in the early '90s, Friesen said
he dealt with quite a few inquires about "strange objects in the
sky"-largely because the airport was releasing huge atmospheric
weather balloons at the time.

The last unexplained phenomena observed in the northwest was a
"strange light" seen in the Thunder Bay area in March, 2003.

At the time, officials with a U.S.-based research centre
suggested the light may have been space junk.







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                      Re: Moon Questions - Christensen

From: Wendy Christensen <christensen.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:48:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:01:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Christensen


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:12:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:42:34 -0500
>>Subject: Moon Questions

There is no dark side of the moon, really... matter of fact,
it's all dark.....

--
Wendy Christensen - Bobcat Mountain Studios
http://www.wendychristensen.com
"The H.S.U.S. Complete Guide to Cat Care" (now in paperback,
too) ...and look for "Outwitting Cats: Tips, Tricks and
Techniques for Persuading the in your Life that what YOU want is
also what THEY want"  (The Lyons Press, Nov. 1, 2004)









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                           A Quantum Leap Of Faith

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:07:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:07:45 -0400
Subject: A Quantum Leap Of Faith




Source: The Lexington Herald News - Kentucky

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/living/religion/9498440.htm

06-28-04


A Quantum Leap Of Faith

Beliefs in UFOs and ritual abuse are studied as new religious
movements

By Jeffrey Weiss

The Dallas Morning News


DALLAS - Christopher Bader was one of those kids who loved tales
of the improbable, and he grew up to become his own improbable
tale: He's a sociology professor at the conservative and Baptist
Baylor University. He's a Presbyterian. And he has a particular
interest in people who say they are UFO abductees or victims of
religion-linked ritual abuse. His study of the two groups was
published in a recent issue of the Journal for the Scientific
Study of Religion.

"My students ask me all the time: 'Do you believe in UFOs? Do
you believe in ritual abuse? Do you believe in Bigfoot?'" Bader
said. "My answer is that I just don't care whether they're real
or not."

Studying the sociology of religion is nothing like delving into
theology, he said.

"We're not studying God. We're studying what people who believe
in God and live on earth do," he said.

"God" and "religion" are defined broadly by sociologists of
religion. Beliefs in UFO abductions and in ritual abuse both
include a large dose of faith.

The scientific mainstream has not accepted any claims of alien
abductions. And many who claim to have survived ritual abuse say
they discovered the abuse by recovering long-repressed memories.
The length of time between the alleged event and the recovery of
the memory often makes it hard to investigate the claims.

So are there UFOs grabbing people? Are there satanic cults
abusing people? In many cases, people believe without the kinds
of evidence that would convince outsiders -- it's a matter of
faith. And that means people in support groups for UFO abductees
or ritual-abuse survivors can be studied as members of "new
religious movements."

Sociologists such as Bader study these small groups because they
think it is a way to understand how successful faiths develop.

After all, the largest religions all started with a few people
considered unusual by their neighbors.

"It really is no crazier than anything else," he said of the
outside-the-mainstream stuff he studies. "I appreciate it as a
belief, and a sincerely held belief."

Most of his work involves less controversial belief systems --
 why churches and denominations succeed or fail in drawing
members. So when Baylor hired him a couple of years ago, he told
his new bosses that part of his studies could seem a bit, well,
odd for a Baptist school.

"But when I talk about Satanism in class, I'm not recruiting,"
he said.

His paper, published in the peer-reviewed journal, is the fruit
of years of tentative contacts with the support groups. Members
are suspicious of outsiders. And much of his paper details how
he gained their trust -- and eventually, some information about
them.

Bader was able to get 55 of the UFO folks and 51 ritual-abuse
survivors to anonymously fill out forms detailing their ages,
education levels and other demographic information.

That fills a hole in the study of these groups, he said. Most
attention has focused on the beliefs or on the psychological
effects for the believers. Bader's goal was to identify the
kinds of people who believe.

What he came up with has its limits, he admits. The sample size
is small, and there's no way to know for sure whether they
represent the average UFO abductee or ritual-abuse survivor. But
the results are in line with research on other small, new
religious movements, he said.

Academics who study such movements tend to consider members of
these groups rubes, he said. "They assume that these are some
country bumpkins who believe that the UFOs are plucking them off
their tractors. That's not what people who are interested in new
ideas are like."

Of the 51 UFO abductees, 32 were women; 48 said they were white,
six identified themselves as Native American (three chose both
categories), 34 attended some college and 29 were white-collar
workers. Most said they found some positive aspects to their
experience.

Of the 48 ritual-abuse survivors, all were white women; 44 had
attended college; and of the 21 then employed, 18 were white-
collar workers. This was an unhappy population, and most
reported that they had dozens of personalities.

What they have in common, Bader said, is that they mostly follow
the pattern found in other new religious movements.

"The theory tells us that it doesn't matter about the
personality of the god involved," he said. "The point is that a
certain demographic is interested in things outside the
mainstream."






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                   Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:53:07 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:12:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Ledger


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:52:52 -0500
>Subject: Strange Doings On Tunguska

>Source: Time Online

>http://www.time.com/time/columnist/jaroff/article/0,9565,688585,00.html

>Strange Doings on Tunguska

>By Leon Jaroff

>Amazingly, some people still believe the devastating Siberian
>event was caused by space aliens

>If any people are more gullible about Unidentified Flying
>Objects than Americans, it's the Russians.

<snip>

>Most scientists today believe that the Tunguska event was
>caused by an asteroid or a comet that heated so rapidly upon
>plunging into the atmosphere that it blew up some five miles
>above the surface with an explosive force of 10 to 15 megatons.

Most scientists, eh. Who are they? The "true believers"? Sounds
like the shoe is on the other foot. Since there is no conclusive
proof one way or the other, it's a little unscientific, isn't
it, to just believe that way.

>Some might suggest that Lavbin was predisposed to making a
>remarkable discovery. And that is precisely what happened. A
>Russian scientific team headed by Lavbin scoured the Tunguska
>site early in August and breathlessly announced that it had
>found the remnants of an extraterrestrial spacecraft, in the
>form of a large metallic block. After sending a 50 kilogram
>chunk of the block to a laboratory for testing, Lavbin chose not
>to await the results. "I can make an official announcement that
>we were saved by some forces of a superior civilization," he
>proclaimed. "They exploded this enormous meteorite headed toward
>us with tremendous speed. Now this great object that caused the
>meteorite to explode is found at last."

>His announcement was greeted by loud raspberries from reputable
>scientists. Boy, this guy is leaving himself wide open for a
>slander suit isn't he.

>Interviewed by Space.com, British researcher Benny Peiser, who
>runs the CCNet website, a scholarly forum devoted largely to
>asteroid impacts and other potential natural threats, called the
>Russian report "a rather stupid hoax." He was equally critical
>of the press: "It's a rather sad comment on the current state of
>anything-goes attitudes among some science correspondents that
>such blatant rubbish is being reported."

Thus spaketh the lord.

>Oberg predicted that the Tunguska spacecraft story, in various
>forms, would endure and that gullible members of the press would
>continue to be hoodwinked by Russian UFOlogists. More than two
>decades later, his prediction stands unchallenged.

I don't think I'm being gullible either way. What the heck
happened and why is there no proof of any of the orthodox
theories?


Don Ledger








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                Alert - Mothman On 'CBS News Sunday Morning'

From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 06:56:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:16:19 -0400
Subject: Alert - Mothman On 'CBS News Sunday Morning'

-----

August 29, 2004

CBS News Sunday Morning: A history of political protests; a
report on autism; a look at the film "Open Water"; singer
Michael McDonald discusses his career; in search of the Mothman
in Point Pleasant, W.Va.

-----

This, no doubt, is a repeat of Bill Geist's report from last
year's Mothman Festival - originally broadcast on September 28,
2003.

The focus is the unveiling of the Mothman statue, with the
white-suited John A. Keel there - although he doesn't seem to get
much attention from the television folks.

Be patient. Geist usually airs during the last 20 minutes of the
90 minute program.

Also. see September 14, 2003's listing here:

http://www.lorencoleman.com/mothman_death_list.html

I assume CBS might mention that the Mothman Festival has now
become an annual event.


Loren







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                        Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc.

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 06:45:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:21:23 -0400
Subject: Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc.


-----

http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/Mexico04c.html

http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/Mexico04d.html

-----

Mr. Printy doesn't get it, is obtusely assumptive, and is a
likely perpetrator of what I'd suspect he'd accuse. We shall
see.

I'm not a ufologist.

Did that surprise anybody? It shouldn't, and this is forgetting
not everyone interested in the subject is.

I may be a contributor. I may be a proponent and booster. I may
be a defender. I may be an enthusiast. I may be low-level
chronicler, tedious poet, or portentous essayist in its regard.
But I'm not a ufologist. Calling me a ufologist is roughly
analogous to calling Stanton Friedman "Doctor Friedman..."
inappropriate even if deserved. Like saying you have a Bronze
Star with a "V" device. Tied to a spot, generally, I'm
restricted pretty much to secondary reference. I have to take
someone else's word - that's not an "-ologist" in my estimation.

What I am is an individual person, respectful of the sensibility
of others, but with a degree of education and intelligence and
life experience, who finds Mr. Printy and his clan of fellow
SNKUDs - reactionary skeptibunkies, noisy negativists, and
knee-jerk ufological denialists - singularly unconvincing,
remarkablely unsatisfying, and astonishingly oblivious to the
obvious with regard to UFOs and associated subjects.


Moreover, I think it's helpful in the aggregate that I try to
share these observations with others as much as I am able, and
in a manner that I deem appropriate. I think art and music and
earnest explication is a constructive way to start.

Perhaps I can encourage others that there is a degree of the
unconvincing, unsatisfying, and astonishing obliviousness to Mr.
Printy and his cultish coterie, and doing such feel well served
and well serving! Additionally, I detest the sneering smirking
snide, know something about intellectual courage, and aspire to
give as good as I get!

But I'm not a ufologist - one can add that to the long list of
other things that Mr. Printy is wrong about.


alienview.nul
EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
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               Re: UFO Photo Taken With Cell Phone Is A Hoax -

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 04:51:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:25:15 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Photo Taken With Cell Phone Is A Hoax -


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:07:45 -0300
>Subject: UFO Photo Taken With Cell Phone Is A Hoax

>It has been determined that the UFO photo taken with a cell
>phone is a hoax perpetrated by a man who also claimed to have
>had missing time after he had taken the image.

<snip>

>I should be sorry to give you the news, but, on the contrary, I
>am glad. I should be sorry that we have one UFO photo less in
>our files, but am glad that we have resolved a hoax!


Hello A.J.,

No apologies necessary! Not in my opinion, anyhow.

You do us a service by pointing out these little messes before
they take root, which of course they do anyway.

Frankly, I was underwhelmed by the photo in the first place.
Having missed the point (cluster of trees) I thought the object
of interest was the lenticular cloud!

I am so tired of things like this, that I put up a page
directing people to the proper reporting centers. Here it is.
Maybe others will want to do something similar:

http://www.larryhatch.net/UREPORT.html

Peter Davenport must have the patience of a saint. Others don't
even need patience, but slap together whatever oozes through the
cracks without a qualm.


Best wishes and thanks again

- Larry

PS: How is 'Urandir' doing? Is he selling lots of alien rocks,
or have those lost market appeal?









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             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:34:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:29:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:04:03 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:52:46 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>Could you please cite the posting or publication in which I
>>declare "that since UFOs don't exist, Arnold _must_ have been
>in error"? You are making things up again, Jerry, just as some
>>people do to spice up unexciting UFO reports.

>Nice try, John. As you of course know well, you are not going to
>do something so bone-headed as to make explicit such an
>assertion. It is, however, implicit in just about everything
>you've written that I've read, on this List or in Magonia.

Mr. Rimmer tried the exact same mechanism with me at the start
of this thread, but I bought in initially - I guess because I'm
not a ufologist. <LOL>

The difference between the implicit and the explicit is lost on
these guys, or only too aware of the difference, they use it to
support their fatuous arguments in a less than ethical manner,
rather like one trick neo-con swiftboat captains against John
Kerry.


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              Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:41:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:32:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Lehmberg


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:45:01 -0300
>Subject: Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 04:45:44 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:54:31 +0200
>>>Subject: Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

>>>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:39:37 -0700
>>>>Subject: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

>>>>Source: The Daily Times

>>>>Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

>>>>By Debra Mayeux
>>>>The Daily Times

>>>There is a five page article by Scott Ramsey in the August MUFON
>>>UFO Journal.

>>>A very interesting article.

>>>And many thanks to Scott Ramsey, who has found a series of
>>>witnesses, after many years of research and high expenses, and
>>>his research is going on.

>>>Any comment from the List?

>>Gildas, Et Al,

>>Scott's efforts certainly don't go un-noticed, and his research
>>lends much credence to the Aztec Incident. His unrelenting
>>search for witnesses has become fruitful, and the verification
>>of the high power radar sites mentioned as far back as Frank
>>Scully's book has even the most ardent skeptics taking a second
>>look at Aztec!

>>Scott's dedication and fervor for finding the truth is much
>>appreciated, and methinks the best is yet to come!

>I have spent quite a bit of time with Scott both in New Mexico
>and in North Carolina. He is objective, careful, persistent and
>willing to put his money where his mouth is.

>We surely could use more people like him in ufology.

>He travels a lot and has always responded rapidly to calls. He
>goes for facts and data and has demolished anti-Aztec efforts by
>a number of debunkers.

>He certaily convinced me, to my surprise, that something really
>did happen there.


That's a tad like Greenspan saying there's a bubble in the
economic indicators.

Do you have any info on how to contact the film's producer, Sir?
I'd like to review it for publication.


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                               NIDS FT Report

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 06:15:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:34:11 -0400
Subject: NIDS FT Report


Hello all:

I don't know if anybody mentioned this earlier, but Colm
Kelleher has put out a a darned good study on so-called Flying
Triangles.

It shows some very nice maps and text, and even mentions my
work. Naturally, I find that more interesting than some other
threads.

http://www.nidsci.org/articles/8_25trireport.php

I think its worth a good look.

My only complaint is that parts of the prose seem repetitive,
but thats a minor quibble. I'm still looking for my bottle
opener at this hour.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch


" There is no such thing as an ungodly hour, just
 ungodly meeps who hide your bottle opener, your
 cigarette lighter and things of that nature. -LH "







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                        Re: Moon Questions - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:26:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:36:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Lehmberg


>From: Wendy Christensen <christensen.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:48:41 -0400
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:12:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:42:34 -0500
>>>Subject: Moon Questions

>There is no dark side of the moon, really... matter of fact,
>it's all dark.....

<snip>

Just like the whole rest of the universe, most of this planet,
and some spots in the same town for most people. Whole rooms in
the same house for many. The "dark side of the moon" is
everywhere you don't want to, can't, or haven't looked. This
makes the "dark side of the moon" very dark indeed, right Mr.
King?

Incomprehensiblely self-indulgent enough for ya, Ms. C.? <g>


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                        Re: Buying UFO Books - Hayes

From: John Hayes <webmaster.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:33:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:44:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Buying UFO Books - Hayes


>From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:13:39 -0400
>Subject: Buying UFO Books

<snip>

>2. I could have sworn that there was a reasonably extensive (if
>somewhat out of date) list of contact details for UK UFO
>booksellers on the ufoinfo.com website, but I can't find the
>relevant page on that website at the moment. When I'm back home
>and have access to my own notes/computer, I'll find the relevant
>link and email it (and, if time permits, a more extensive
>version of this email, particularly if others within the UK
>provide some input) to Joe McGonagle's Ufologyinuk list.

Hello Isaac,

You are correct that there was a list of booksellers on the
UFOINFO site but I removed it because it was outdated.

If you wish to look at the list you could try going to the
Internet Archive at:

http://www.archive.org/

search for www.ufoinfo.com in the Wayback Machine and browse
back through the dates - I would guess sometime in 2003.


Regards,

John Hayes

webmaster.nul

UFOINFO:- http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.








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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 15:08:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 08:58:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:34:05 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:04:03 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:52:46 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

><snip>

>>>Could you please cite the posting or publication in which I
>>>declare "that since UFOs don't exist, Arnold _must_ have been
>>in error"? You are making things up again, Jerry, just as some
>>>people do to spice up unexciting UFO reports.

>>Nice try, John. As you of course know well, you are not going to
>>do something so bone-headed as to make explicit such an
>>assertion. It is, however, implicit in just about everything
>>you've written that I've read, on this List or in Magonia.

>Mr. Rimmer tried the exact same mechanism with me at the start
>of this thread, but I bought in initially - I guess because I'm
>not a ufologist. <LOL>

Curiously, you did manage, after a few promptings, to come up
with exactly the sort of reference I was asking for - a sceptic
making the stupid suggestion that Betty and Barney Hill had made
up their entire abduction account from nothing - so it is worth
asking! You never know what you'll come up with unless you try!

>The difference between the implicit and the explicit is lost on
>these guys, or only too aware of the difference, they use it to
>support their fatuous arguments in a less than ethical manner,
>rather like one trick neo-con swiftboat captains against John
>Kerry.

Sorry, obscure political (?) reference which means little to
those of us on the other side of the water.


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm







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                  Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:44:25 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:02:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Friedman


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul,  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:53:07 -0300
>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:52:52 -0500
>>Subject: Strange Doings On Tunguska

>>Source: Time Online

>>http://www.time.com/time/columnist/jaroff/article/0,9565,688585,00.html

>>Strange Doings on Tunguska

>>By Leon Jaroff

>>Amazingly, some people still believe the devastating Siberian
>>event was caused by space aliens

>>If any people are more gullible about Unidentified Flying
>>Objects than Americans, it's the Russians.

<snip>

>>Oberg predicted that the Tunguska spacecraft story, in various
>>forms, would endure and that gullible members of the press would
>>continue to be hoodwinked by Russian UFOlogists. More than two
>>decades later, his prediction stands unchallenged.

>I don't think I'm being gullible either way. What the heck
>happened and why is there no proof of any of the orthodox
>theories?

It should be noted that Leon Jaroff is a fellow of CSICOP and
has never given any evidence of knowing anything about UFOs
other than his own biases and prejudices. Unfortunately, he has
a big podium.

This is not to say I believe there was a nuclear spaceship
involved in Tunguska.

Notice that there is no attempt to find the results of the tests
that were supposedly conducted on the specimen nor to establish
that the leader is telling the truth about himself.

If you can't attack the data attack the people...

Stan Friedman







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              Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:56:59 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:05:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Friedman


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:41:19 -0500
>Subject: Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:45:01 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

<snip>

>Do you have any info on how to contact the film's producer, Sir?
>I'd like to review it for publication.

The producer is Paul Kimball of Redstar Films in Halifax, Nova
Scotia, check out

http://redstarfilm.com

Paul also did Stanton T.Friedman IS Real and Do You Believe
in MAJIC? both of which have been shown on the Space Channel in
Canada.


Stan Friedman







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                     Re: A Quantum Leap Of Faith - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:03:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:06:55 -0400
Subject: Re: A Quantum Leap Of Faith - Hatch


Dear Readers:

Are there three (3) people on this List, who know or can intuit
how infinitesimally small, and at the same time how immensely
large, a " Quantum Leap" is?

Maybe there are 4 or 5, but I would not bet on it.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry when some clown uses the Q
word in a religious context.

Somehow, and I know this is asking a lot, I wish that all
airheadedness and spirits etc. be kept off this List for the
purposes of (hopefully) saner ufological discussion.

Who offended who is of equal disinterest, especially if
involving blowhards, bishops or unmedicated poets.

The underlying agenda here is to find some facts about UFOs, one
way or the other. Failing that, perhaps some decent Belgian
beer, but not all this rancor.

I apologize for my website being down for 2 or 3 days. That was
unavoidable. 5 out of 6 of the most recent threads on this List
were entirely avoidable.


Sorry

- Larry Hatch








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                     UFO Photographs In The Former USSR?

From: Philip Mantle <philipmantle.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 15:04:03 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:08:23 -0400
Subject: UFO Photographs In The Former USSR?


Dear List members,

I wonder if there's anyone on the List, or do you perhaps know
anyone, who has access to UFO photographs from within the former
USSR. If you do, could you contact me off-List please at:

philipmantle.nul


Thanks,

Philip









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               Re: UFO Photo Taken With Cell Phone Is A Hoax -

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 10:28:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:10:49 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Photo Taken With Cell Phone Is A Hoax -


>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:07:45 -0300
>Subject: UFO Photo Taken With Cell Phone Is A Hoax

>It has been determined that the UFO photo taken with a cell
>phone is a hoax perpetrated by a man who also claimed to have
>had missing time after he had taken the image.

Of course it's sad it's not a hovering alien mothership, but
uncovering it as a hoax is really the next best thing.

As someone on this List has said before, it's ironic that the
job of disproving UFO sightings and photos has become the job of
the people most interested in proving them 'true', since the
outright skeptical can't seem to get it done.

But I suppose that's the way it is with science - the real work
is only going to be done by those most interested.







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                          Re: Moon Questions - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 10:32:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:12:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - King


>From: Wendy Christensen <christensen.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:48:41 -0400
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:12:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:42:34 -0500
>>>Subject: Moon Questions

>There is no dark side of the moon, really... matter of fact,
>it's all dark.....

Wendy,

Ahhh... a Floydian slip!!?


Kyle






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                         Re: Moon Questions - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 10:37:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:14:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Shell


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:54:04 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>If a satellite was placed in geosynchronous orbit above a spot
>on the the moon western edge as seen from earth, wouldn't it
>always remain in that spot as seen from earth?, I'm probably not
>thinking right on this, but it seems correct. I'm not sure
>either that lunar geosynchronous orbit is possible. But it seems
>plausible...

Sure it's possible. It all has to do with the speed and
altitude. But I've solved the problem anyway. We put three in
orbit! Ha!

Actually, I'm still waiting for someone to come up with a good
scenario where we use robotic spiders with decent AI to smooth
out a suitable crater, weave a net, and build a several-miles-
in-diameter radio telescope conveniently shielded from most of
the Earth noise.


Well, maybe once we get the elevator built...







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                          Re: Moon Questions - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 10:43:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:15:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - King


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul, ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:54:49 -0300
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:27:37 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

><snip>

>>As for being "warned off", Arthur Clarke may have pegged it
>>after all: "All these worlds are yours except (the
>>Moon?)... Attempt no (more?)landings there". :)

>Actually it was Jupiter's satellite Europa that was referred to
>in that "warning", not our Moon.


Don,

Absolutely, I was simply applying a little "retcon" as did Mr.
Clarke in the novel.

Half-joking, but if he had information that we were ever "warned
off" from ANYWHERE, it would have been the moon, because we'd
never sent humans to any other place "out there". Hence my
parenthetical "the Moon" and "more?). My attempt at a semi-
humorous aside... heavy on the semi... 'S'


Kyle







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                          Re: Moon Questions - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:07:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:18:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - King


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:00:46 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:27:37 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

<snip>

>>A satellite in geosynchronous orbit around the Earth would not
>>see a moon base when it was turned away from the satellite, and
>>a satellite in geosynchronous orbit around the moon (and I'm not
>>really sure of the feasibility of that) would put the moon
>>between it and the Earth as the moon rotated around the Earth.
>> The goal is a valid one, but I think it will involved a series
>>of satellites orbiting the moon.

>Since the Moon's rotation and orbital period are the same, it
>always has the same face pointing at us. If a satellite were put
>into luno-synchronous orbit, it too would stay in the same
>location relative to the Earth and would not necessarily be
>blocked by the moon. The Earth itself, however, would rotate
>away from the satellite so it would require a few receiving
>stations to gather data from the satellite.

>If a satellite were put on the far side of the Moon it might
>require a few relay satellites (or stations) depending on the
>altitude of the orbit.


Exactly as I thought... thank you!

So a base on the far side could maintain communication via a
satellite in a geosynchronous orbit around the moon bouncing
signal back to an array of networked satellites around the
earth... perhaps an existing array or perhaps requiring a new
one.

I appreciate the comments on this thread. Barely UFO-related,
but I can't kick the feeling that having eyes on that far side
could provide an unfettered view, at least.

Thanks again for the illumination. While the moon is obviously
"dark all over" unless lit from elsewhere, it would be nice to
get the view from "where the earth don't shine". :)


Kyle







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                          Re: Moon Questions - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:20:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:19:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - King


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:26:28 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Wendy Christensen <christensen.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:48:41 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

<snip>

>>There is no dark side of the moon, really... matter of fact,
>>it's all dark.....

><snip>

>Just like the whole rest of the universe, most of this planet,
>and some spots in the same town for most people. Whole rooms in
>the same house for many. The "dark side of the moon" is
>everywhere you don't want to, can't, or haven't looked. This
>makes the "dark side of the moon" very dark indeed, right Mr.
>King?

<snip>

As I don't think I'd choose Messrs. Barrett, Waters, et.al. to
back me up in a discussion about the value of the Moon's far
side, I naively assumed that the reference was more light-
hearted than accusatory... or revelatory.


Kyle







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                    Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:32:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:21:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - King


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul,  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:53:07 -0300
>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

><snip>

>I don't think I'm being gullible either way. What the heck
>happened and why is there no proof of any of the orthodox
>theories?


Don,

I'm curious about what proof you are looking for. If the
"conventional wisdom" is that a comet or meteor caused the
Tunguska blast, what would the "proof" be? A big area of
flattened trees... in a radiating pattern somewhat biased along
the path of the meteor. There would be burnt ground or plant
life, there would be resulting atmospheric effects... auroral
lights in unusual places, and there would be a great ground-
 shaking.

If the comet or meteor was vaporized in the explosion, by
definition the evidence of the comet or meteor is now "thin air"
thin air, which would presumably have dissipated by now. I don't
think there's much hope of "proving" that it was a comet or
meteor. While it may be comforting for some to have a non-ET
related explanation, that comfort should not be taken as proof
of its validity, any more than taking comfort in God's eternal
love should constitute proof of its validity. I must allow
though that either may very well be valid. In my reality,
neither of those give me much comfort, so I look elsewhere.
Before I read any scientific information about Tunguska, I
thought that it must have been something anomalous. An
anachronistic nuke, a meandering "mini-black hole", a
malfunctioning Martian craft, etc.

The new twist is that ET was saving us. ET acted to thwart our
destruction. Just pondering this raises implications reaching
far into the recesses of the UFO debate, and that is
invigorating if nothing else.

"Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin", the mystery remains and the
debate remains...hopefully as bereft of proclamation as the
theories are of "proof". But if Dr. Einstein's admonition that
"God doesn't play dice..." is accurate, it would be an ultimate
irony if it was determined that an ET used one (even one of
"God-like" scale) to save us all. :)  (...For ET so loved the
world...) That's tasty in so many ways...

Until the "die" is found to be of anomalous nature, I will have
to keep this one in the unsolved file.

At present, I find no compelling argument for one theory over
another. A comet or meteor is a possibility, nothing more. Not
even necessarily the most likely...just a possibility. My comfort
level however resides somewhat "left" of center on this one.

Heck, the whole thing could be just some kind of sociological
"project" or behavioral experiment. Theories abound. Proof is
a grail for now.

Kind Regards,

Kyle







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                         Re: NIDS FT Report - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:38:38 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:22:44 -0400
Subject: Re: NIDS FT Report - Ledger


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 06:15:24 -0700
>Subject: NIDS FT Report

>I don't know if anybody mentioned this earlier, but Colm
>Kelleher has put out a a darned good study on so-called Flying
>Triangles.

>It shows some very nice maps and text, and even mentions my
>work. Naturally, I find that more interesting than some other
>threads.


Hi Larry,

I notice that NIDS has an icon on one of their maps map that I
assume is from your map at the mouth of Halifax Harbour, Canada.
Is that the Cow Bay FT sighting?

Best,

Don Ledger







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                     Re: A Quantum Leap Of Faith - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:18:47 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:24:35 -0400
Subject: Re: A Quantum Leap Of Faith - Boone


>Source: The Lexington Herald News - Kentucky

>http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/living/religion/9498440.htm

>06-28-04


>A Quantum Leap Of Faith

>Beliefs in UFOs and ritual abuse are studied as new religious
>movements

>By Jeffrey Weiss

>The Dallas Morning News


>DALLAS - Christopher Bader was one of those kids who loved tales
>of the improbable, and he grew up to become his own improbable
>tale: He's a sociology professor at the conservative and Baptist
>Baylor University. He's a Presbyterian. And he has a particular
>interest in people who say they are UFO abductees or victims of
>religion-linked ritual abuse. His study of the two groups was
>published in a recent issue of the Journal for the Scientific
>Study of Religion.

<snip>

>"The theory tells us that it doesn't matter about the
>personality of the god involved," he said. "The point is that
>a certain demographic is interested in things outside the
>mainstream."

Oh for cryin' out loud!

Next they'll be dragging in Republicans and Democrats and
tossing them into some lab or something and give em' the '3rd
Degree' to determine who really walks on water, Bush or Kerry.

Maybe we should compartmentalize Ufology, y'know, like have
'Forensic Ufology' and 'Social Ufology' or even 'Low Carb
Ufology'. Then everyone can chat within their little circles and
no one will know what the other guy is doing just like in the
government.

It's an old military strategy. Confuse yourself so much that
your enemy will think you're crazy.


Best,

Greg







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                  Re: Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc. - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:23:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:26:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc. - Boone


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 06:45:09 -0500
>Subject: Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc.

>-----

>http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/Mexico04c.html

>http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/Mexico04d.html

<snip>

Hey Alfred!

Thanks for the link above. I read the article and was suprised
he would think me worthy of quoting.

I'm pissed off though that he didn't take me out of context.

How dare he accurately quote me! I demand recompense! I won't
rest until he or someone takes my comments out of context!

I deserve better than to be quoted accurately! All these years
of hard work and for what?

I tell you if this keeps up I might have to go out and find me a
debunker and pay  him under the table to do some good ol'
fashioned debunking - sounds like that old gospel 'Gimme that
Old Time Religion.

The nerve of these people!  :)

Neat article though.


Best,

Greg







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               Re: UFO Photo Taken With Cell Phone Is A Hoax -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:54:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:29:13 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Photo Taken With Cell Phone Is A Hoax -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 04:51:22 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFO Photo Taken With Cell Phone Is A Hoax

>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:07:45 -0300
>>Subject: UFO Photo Taken With Cell Phone Is A Hoax

>>It has been determined that the UFO photo taken with a cell
>>phone is a hoax perpetrated by a man who also claimed to have
>>had missing time after he had taken the image.

><snip>

>>I should be sorry to give you the news, but, on the contrary, I
>>am glad. I should be sorry that we have one UFO photo less in
>>our files, but am glad that we have resolved a hoax!

>No apologies necessary! Not in my opinion, anyhow.

>You do us a service by pointing out these little messes before
>they take root, which of course they do anyway.

<snip>

Thank you Larry and A. J.

You've hit the nail right on the head there Mr. Hatch. We all
must be vigilant but also take a look at how this story bubbled
to the top anyhow. New technology enters the UFO field. How
often have we asked why people don't bring their cameras or
shoot pics during an UFO event? Now we have millions of people
with space age doohickeys ( I hope that's the plural ) that take
pics, video, play games etc. at hip's reach. It was inevitable
that someone would use them to record the unusual and I'm
suprised we don't have cell phone 'Nessie' and 'Bigfoot' shots
coming out of the woodwork as well.

So this story turned out to be bogus, but what happens next when
someone else records an event? Will we or the press refer to
this recent incident as the 'be all and tell all' of personal
recording devices capturing an unusual event?

I hope not. If I was a debunker/disinformationalist I would have
thought of this one a long time ago.


Best,

Greg







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                      Old Long Island UFO Crash Story?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 15:15:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:31:30 -0400
Subject: Old Long Island UFO Crash Story?


Okay, saw this on a message board and am not familiar with it
but I assume it's about the same John Ford some of you have
mentioned?

What happened? Is the case closed kaput? Ignore me if it's a
stupid question.

Best,
Greg

-----

http://home.pacbell.net/joerit/docs2/crash/s_haven2.htm

SOUTH SHORE PRESS

                                Vol. X, No 7
                           Tuesday, May 25, 1993

                        UFO CRASH AT SOUTHAVEN PARK?

                              by Robert Sands

A local investigative group that has been researching accounts
of unidentified objects on Long Island for the past five years
released a report (with photos and a video tape) yeaterday that
claims an alien space craft crashed into a remote area of
Southaven Park in Shirley just before Thanksgiving last year.

The incident happened just after 7:00 P.M. on the night of
November 24, according to John Ford, chairman of the Long Island
U.F.O. Network, who said that it has taken his group six months
to do a thorough investigation. It was just recently, though,
that his group was able to acquire the video and the photos. "We
knew that something crashed into the park that night and we
have, bit by bit," said Ford, "been able to finally put the
picture together."

Several motorists who were traveling along Sunrise Highway that
night, according to Ford, contacted his organization and
described what they thought was a plane that was going down into
the park. And many local residents whose homes border Southaven
report that they heard loud rumbling sounds and saw strange
lights.

"Eyewitness accounts have confirmed that a fire was reported
immediately after," noted Ford. "In addition, the roads around
the park were blocked off to travel by county and park police.
The next day, and for a few days after, the park was closed to
the public."

One local resident who lives near the park said that for a five
to six day period after the incident, his house experienced
numerous power surges and the phone would ring strangely without
anyone on the other end. "I ride horses in the park so I'm
pretty familiar with the activities there," said the 45- year-
old man who requested anonymity because of the sensitive nature
of his job ("they would fire me if they thought I believed in
flying saucers"). "For the next few days there were a lot of
military helicopters going over the park - and I couldn't get
in."

Records show that Southaven Park was closed between November 25
and 28. According to park officials, the park was closed to the
general public that week because it was reserved for duck
hunting.

Although some of the area fire departments were initially
called, they were turned back and the fire was handled by the
federally controlled Brookhaven National Laboratory Fire
Department, said Ford.

Ford's group finally gained admittance into the park a week
later. "We found an area that was burned out and some trees were
bent over," Ford recalled. "A section looked like it had been
plowed over by machinery." But two things were of particular
interest to Ford. "We were getting a higher than normal
radiation reading in the area, higher than regular background
radiation, and the fence line in that area," said Ford, "had no
magnetic reading." Ford explained that metal fences maintain a
magnetic charge from the Earth. "Something had stripped away the
magnetic charge of the fence."

Last week Ford received what he had been waiting and hoping for:
a video film of the crash. "I can't say where I got it from
because these people who supplied the tape are afraid that the
government will go after them." Because of the poor quality of
the tape, Ford has been working with video specialists to try
and enhance the quality of the picture and to produce stills.

The video, a copy of which was given to South Shore Press, shows
people examining a bright reddish, metallic-type object about
four-square feet that appears to be emitting a white, cloudy
gas, and a hissing sound can be heard - a sight and sound that
resembles dry ice that has been exposed to warmer temperatures.
The next shot shows what appears to be a person trying to lift
up a body near a tree, but the poor quality of the film makes
positive identification impossible. In a final scene, three
uniformed men (wearing dark jackets and rounded caps similar to
federal swat teams) are seen placing a large shiny spread
(similar to mylar) over something on the ground. Ford makes no
apologies for the poor quality of the video: "Things are
happening fast and the guy who took the shots doesn't want to be
too obvious." And he confesses that it is hard to get people to
come forward and admit what they've seen. "One of the major
problems in researching UFOs is that people are afraid of
sounding like lunatics when describing strange, unexplained
events." But an even greater fear, notes Ford, is the
government. "You get involved with things that the government
doesn't want people to know and they can make life pretty tough
for you."

What are Ford's conclusions about the Southaven incident? "We
are still very actively investigating this event. We believe
that an extraterrestrial craft, with aliens, crashed that night
in the park - and we are out to prove it."

The Long Island U.F.O. Network has a 24-hour hotline number
(286-3212) to which Ford encourages people to call if they have
any information on the (Southaven) incident or any other
(unexplainable) phenomenon. Or you can call this reporter at
281-PRESS - he would love to know what happened that night.








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                Survival Center Alert Asteroid Toutatis 4179

From: William H Bolt <AB5SY.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:47:30 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:34:16 -0400
Subject: Survival Center Alert Asteroid Toutatis 4179


Hopefully we'll have a clear sky on Sept. 29th

Asteroid Toutatis 4179 (official) Sept 29th, 2004

Anyone who spends even 20 minutes researching Toutatis should
quickly comprehend the very real danger this monstrosity
represents.

=3D=3D=3D=3D
According to NASA on September 29, 2004 a large and potentially
hazardous asteroid called Toutatis 4179 will come very close to
planet Earth.

Facts from NASA:

 - Toutatis is about 3 miles long, 1.5 miles wide

 - Discovered in 1989, it nears earth every 3.98 years

 - It has a very strange shape, rotation and orbit

 - On Sept 29th it will come less than 963,000 miles close

 - 963,000 miles is considered a very near miss

 - It orbits into the main asteroid belt between Mars & Jupiter

 - Earth, Mars & Jupiter's gravity affects its orbital path

 - It will slow down crossing near Earth at about 24,000 m.p.h.

 - It will be very bright, visible even with binoculars

 - Officially, NASA gives a zero chance of impact

 - A collision would kill most all life forms on Earth


Because of many unknowns, the chance of Toutatis hitting Earth
on Sept. 29th can't be entirely ruled out. The scientist at the
NASA (NEO) near earth object program are some of the smartest
people in the world, so let's hope their calculations are
correct.

A large asteroid will hit Earth on Sept. 29, 2004?


"On September 29th this year a 3 mile long asteroid will make
the closest predicted approach of any asteroid or comet to Earth
until the year 2060", say scientists at NASA=B4s Jet Propulsion
Laboratory Near-Earth Object Program. They predict the asteroid
will come within 963,000 miles of Earth....... a very near miss.

Asteroid Toutatis 4179 (formerly named 1989 AC), was discovered
by C. Pollas on January 4, 1989, at Caussols, France. It was
named after a Celtic/Gallic god. It is one of the largest known
"Potentially Hazardous Asteroids" (PHA) that approaches our
planet on a near Earth orbit. Close encounters with Venus,
Earth, Mars and Jupiter constantly alter the shape of the
asteroid=B4s path as it loops through the solar system every 3.98
years. During its orbital path it enters and exits the "main
asteroid belt" which lies between Mars and Jupiter. It is
estimated that the main asteroid belt contains over a million
objects larger than 1 kilometer across. Toutatis' strange shape,
chaotic rotation and eccentric orbit could be best explained by
a history of violent collisions. Any collision within the main
beltway would change the exit trajectory of Toutatis, altering
its return path to Earth. This would render all standing
calculations meaningless.

On October 31, 2000 Toutatis passed less than 29 lunar distances
from Earth. The September 29th fly-by will come less than four
lunar distances of the Earth.

Toutatis also has one of the strangest rotations yet observed in
the solar system. Instead of the spinning about a single axis,
as do the planets and the vast majority of asteroids, it
"tumbles" somewhat like a flubbed football pass.

At three miles long it would present a terrible danger to the
Earth if it were to collide with the planet, although scientists
at NASA say this is unlikely. It is traveling at a speed of
about 20 miles per second and if it struck, the ocean would
unleash a "mega tsunami" or giant tidal wave that could reach
around the entire globe, inundating millions of hectares of
land, destroying coastal habitations and killing perhaps
millions of people.

If it hits land it could completely destroy an area the size of
Europe and would raise enough dust into the atmosphere to change
the climate of the planet completely, causing a mini ice age
that would freeze crops, destroy plant life and pre-empt a
global famine. It would also completely destroy the ozone layer.

Provided below are enough clicks to get you going, and then
you=B4re on your own - meaning do your own research, draw your own
conclusion. My own opinion is that this fly-by has a 50/50 of
impact. The most disturbing thing for me personally is that I
can=B4t find anything from NASA indicating their admitted margin
of error. This leads me to believe that their margin of error
does not exclude impact. As you begin to read and pour through
the wealth of information and data you will not like what you
learn. This city size asteroid is coming right at us on what may
very well prove to be a collision course - or a near miss.

http://echo.jpl.nasa.gov/asteroids/4179_Toutatis/toutatis.html

http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/db?name=3D4179

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/text/toutatis.txt

http://www.solarviews.com/eng/toutatis.htm

http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/neo/pha.html


http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mystery_monday_040503.html

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?1998AcA....48..547S

Originally from www.para-normal.com.


A minor rumor has hatched on the Internet that a large and
deadly asteroid will strike Earth this fall. The rumors are
likely rooted in a real event, however. On Sept. 29, 2004 an
asteroid the size of a small city will make the closest known
pass of such a very large space rock anytime this century. While
not dangerous for now, asteroid Toutatis is incredibly strange.
And scientists are quite familiar with it, having bounced radar
off the tumbling stone on previous flybys to generate computer
renderings of its weird shape and movement. Toutatis looks
something like a dumbbell hurtling awkwardly through space. It
has a crazy rotation that makes normal days impossible. (read
more)

Scientists can't explain the shape or the spin, but they're
eager to learn more in September when, during the close pass,
even backyard skywatchers will be able to spot the asteroid.

Well known path

The orbit of Toutatis is pinned down with better precision than
any other large asteroid known to cross Earth's orbit. Toutatis'
4-year trek around the Sun ranges from just inside the Earth's
path out to the main asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. The
asteroid visits us every four years.

This fall, it will zoom by our planet within a million miles, or
about four times the distance to the Moon.

WSU Site and Potentially Hazardous objects

http://www.eecs.wsu.edu/~hudson/Research/Asteroids/index.htm

http://www.eecs.wsu.edu/~hudson/Research/Asteroids/index.htm

NASA site with table of near earth objects.

http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/neo/close.html







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                     Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo - Frola

From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 08:52:34 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:36:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo - Frola


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 03:42:41 -0700
>Subject: Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo

>Hello Diane:

>I couldn't find the photo, just lots of links. Can you just give
>us the URL straight to the photo?


Hi Larry,

The link to the photo is:

http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Victorian_sighting.html

Cheers

Robert







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               Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 05:53:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:38:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary - Warren


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:41:19 -0500
>Subject: Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 18:45:01 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Aztec To Premiere UFO Documentary

<snip>

>Do you have any info on how to contact the film's producer, Sir?
>I'd like to review it for publication.


Alfred,

Paul Kimball, who has added his voice to this List quite often
is President of Redstar Films LTD; here is the company info:

Redstar Films Ltd.
#533, 1657 Barrington St
Halifax NS Canada
B3J 2A1

Ph. (902) 429-5254
Fax (902) 429-5256

info.nul
http://www.redstarfilm.com/


Regards,

Frank Warren










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                   Who's Bumping Off The Microbiologists?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:44:05 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:27:57 -0400
Subject: Who's Bumping Off The Microbiologists?


This story about the ongoing accident prone microbiologists
is getting scarier by the day.

Does it have anything at all to do with Ufology? Were any of
them connected?

Or is this just a coincidence that goes beyond mere mortal
understanding?


Best,

Greg







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             Re: Survival Center Alert Asteroid Toutatis 4179 -

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 14:54:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:01:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Survival Center Alert Asteroid Toutatis 4179 -


>From: William H Bolt <AB5SY.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:47:30 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Survival Center Alert Asteroid Toutatis 4179

>Hopefully we'll have a clear sky on Sept. 29th

>Asteroid Toutatis 4179 (official) Sept 29th, 2004

>Anyone who spends even 20 minutes researching Toutatis should
>quickly comprehend the very real danger this monstrosity
>represents.

<snip>

As an Associate Member of Spaceguard UK I'm the last person to
play down the threat posed to the Earth by NEOs. However, all
the scientific data suggest that Toutatis will come no closer to
the Earth than approximately one million miles - around four
times the distance from the Earth to the moon.

As I said in my 6 July post on this issue, I suspect that a far
greater danger comes from cultists trying to jump on another
apocalyptic bandwagon:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/jul/m06-033.shtml


Best wishes,

Nick Pope







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                        Re: Moon Questions - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:14:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:05:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Lehmberg


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:20:06 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:26:28 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>>From: Wendy Christensen <christensen.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:48:41 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

><snip>

>>>There is no dark side of the moon, really... matter of fact,
>>>it's all dark.....

>><snip>

>>Just like the whole rest of the universe, most of this planet,
>>and some spots in the same town for most people. Whole rooms in
>>the same house for many. The "dark side of the moon" is
>>everywhere you don't want to, can't, or haven't looked. This
>>makes the "dark side of the moon" very dark indeed, right Mr.
>>King?

><snip>

>As I don't think I'd choose Messrs. Barrett, Waters, et.al. to
>back me up in a discussion about the value of the Moon's far
>side, I naively assumed that the reference was more light-
>hearted than accusatory... or revelatory.

Naive is spot on accurate, I suspect, and "assume" makes an ass
of you and me, Mr. King, but have no fear, Sir, I intend to be
a source of ongoing disappointment for you. Be sure to keep us
all posted on your "revelations", won't you? I'm sure I'll find
them "revelatory" myself.


alienview.nul
EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net






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             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:51:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:10:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 15:08:40 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:34:05 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>Curiously, you did manage, after a few promptings, to come up
>with exactly the sort of reference I was asking for - a sceptic
>making the stupid suggestion that Betty and Barney Hill had made
>up their entire abduction account from nothing - so it is worth
>asking! You never know what you'll come up with unless you try!

I suspect that if you knew the reference was available you
wouldn't have made the challenge Mr. Rimmer. Additionally, the
requirement for two promptings testifies to the irrelevantly
distracting specificity of the initial inquiry, Sir, nothing
more. You thought you knew the 'answer' or you wouldn't have
asked the 'question'. Moreover, you trying to appear reasonable
now does not diminish the fact that you were slapped for your
smirks and sneers... real justice, in my opinion, for trying to
arbitrarily degrade and derail a positive review of Wendy
Connors' singular contribution to ufology. Disingenuously
degrade the part to dismiss the whole, right Mr. Rimmer?

>>The difference between the implicit and the explicit is lost on
>>these guys, or only too aware of the difference, they use it to
>>support their fatuous arguments in a less than ethical manner,
>>rather like one trick neo-con swiftboat captains against John
>>Kerry.

>Sorry, obscure political (?) reference which means little to
>those of us on the other side of the water.

Right - the most powerful nation in the world is trying to drag,
kicking and screaming, the whole of western civilization into
the final conflict and end-of-times Armageddon and you haven't
heard a salient detail? Nothing about John Kerry and
"swiftboats" in the British Press, eh? Be that as it may, I'm
sure you can drag the relevance out of context, and easily
predict that it is not going to be one in any way flattering.


alienview.nul
EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net






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                  Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 11:56:10 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:14:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Friedman


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:32:21 -0500
>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:53:07 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

>><snip>

>>I don't think I'm being gullible either way. What the heck
>>happened and why is there no proof of any of the orthodox
>>theories?


>I'm curious about what proof you are looking for. If the
>"conventional wisdom" is that a comet or meteor caused the
>Tunguska blast, what would the "proof" be? A big area of
>flattened trees... in a radiating pattern somewhat biased along
>the path of the meteor. There would be burnt ground or plant
>life, there would be resulting atmospheric effects... auroral
>lights in unusual places, and there would be a great ground-
> shaking.

>If the comet or meteor was vaporized in the explosion, by
>definition the evidence of the comet or meteor is now "thin air"
>thin air, which would presumably have dissipated by now. I don't
>think there's much hope of "proving" that it was a comet or
>meteor. While it may be comforting for some to have a non-ET
>related explanation, that comfort should not be taken as proof
>of its validity, any more than taking comfort in God's eternal
>love should constitute proof of its validity. I must allow
>though that either may very well be valid. In my reality,
>neither of those give me much comfort, so I look elsewhere.
>Before I read any scientific information about Tunguska, I
>thought that it must have been something anomalous. An
>anachronistic nuke, a meandering "mini-black hole", a
>malfunctioning Martian craft, etc.

<snip>

Several years ago a Soviet paper was published indicating that
small granules were discovered in Antarctica at a level
consistent with 1908 that matched similar granules found near
Tungiuska and apparently from a comet. There were certainly
strange effects in the atmosphere all around the globe for some
time after the event... just as volcnao eruptions and nuclear
explosions can inject stuff into the atmosphere that makes its
way all around the globe.

I don't have a reference.


Stan Friedman







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                           Bentwaters Alert State

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:58:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:16:50 -0400
Subject: Bentwaters Alert State


List,

A series of posts last year debated the issue of whether there
had been an alert condition at the time of the Rendlesham Forest
incident. Larry Warren and others claimed that there had been,
citing as evidence a photograph that appears in "Left At East
Gate", showing a sign at the main gate of RAF Bentwaters,
displaying the words "Alert Condition".

I pointed out that the bottom of the sign was obscured and
suggested that the words "Alert Condition" would always be on
the sign, but that had the bottom of the sign not been obscured,
a descriptor of the specific alert condition would have been
visible:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/aug/m30-023.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/sep/m11-011.shtml

That is certainly true of the way in which UK military
establishments operate now.

I discussed this with Larry Warren, who insisted that he was
correct. He said he thought he had some more photographs that
might shed light on this and undertook to look for them and send
them to me if he found them.

I heard nothing for a long time, but yesterday received a letter
from Larry, along with two photographs. One was a copy of the
one that appears in "Left At East Gate". On the back are Larry's
initials and the words "Dec 1980". The second photo is clearly
also of the main gate at RAF Bentwaters, though taken at night.
On the back are Larry's initials and the words "May 1981". The
sign is clearly visible and only one word appears on it:
"Normal".

In an accompanying letter, Larry suggested that I should correct
my earlier post, on this List, at the earliest opportunity. I
had no difficulty with this, hence this post.

The photograph in "Left At East Gate" is captioned "Main gate of
RAF Bentwaters, morning of incident, 28 December, 1980".
Although the morning of the first incident was 26 December, the
photograph Larry sent does indeed suggest that contrary to my
initial view, there was an alert condition at some stage during
the incident.

Does anybody have any further thoughts on this?


Best wishes,

Nick Pope







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                   Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:59:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:19:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Clark


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:44:25 -0300
>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul, ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:53:07 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

>>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:52:52 -0500
>>>Subject: Strange Doings On Tunguska

>>I don't think I'm being gullible either way. What the heck
>>happened and why is there no proof of any of the orthodox
>>theories?

>It should be noted that Leon Jaroff is a fellow of CSICOP and
>has never given any evidence of knowing anything about UFOs
>other than his own biases and prejudices. Unfortunately, he has
>a big podium.


Don and Stan:

I have no strong opinion about Tunguska and regard the latest
claim as just one more unproved exotic speculation which, like
all its predecessors, will soon be forgotten. But it's possibly
worth noting that Jaroff is more than just a CSICOP Fellow; he's
a longtime anti-anomaly blowhard who was expelling wind well
before CSICOP existed. He's been a huge bore on the subject for
decades. I think it's safe to say that he'll be forgotten, too.
Anomalies, real and imagined, will continue.


Jerry Clark







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             Re: Survival Center Alert Asteroid Toutatis 4179 -

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:15:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:21:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Survival Center Alert Asteroid Toutatis 4179 -


>From: William H Bolt <AB5SY.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:47:30 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Survival Center Alert Asteroid Toutatis 4179

>Hopefully we'll have a clear sky on Sept. 29th

>Asteroid Toutatis 4179 (official) Sept 29th, 2004

>Anyone who spends even 20 minutes researching Toutatis should
>quickly comprehend the very real danger this monstrosity
>represents.

<snip>

Thanks for the tip, William. I have just told my boss where he
can stick it, dumped the wife and kids, quintupled my life
insurance and cashed in my shares.


Regards,

Joe







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                  Re: Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc. - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:17:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:22:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc. - Groff


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:23:48 EDT
>Subject: Re: Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc.

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 06:45:09 -0500
>>Subject: Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc.

>>-----

>>http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/Mexico04c.html

>>http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/Mexico04d.html

><snip>

>Hey Alfred!

>Thanks for the link above. I read the article and was suprised
>he would think me worthy of quoting.

<snip>

Gee. He quoted me too. Since my initial post was so short, it
would have been difficult to quote me out of context.

Regardless of what the objects are, my quote would still stand
on its own.


Terry Groff

"The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO.
Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket
and refracted the light from Venus"
- Agent 'K'







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                   Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 13:22:23 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:00:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Ledger


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:44:25 -0300
>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:53:07 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

<snip>

>I mentioned in an earlier note that one Soviet scientist did
>numerous tests with small explosive charges in a test chamber to
>get the same butterfly explosion pattern as is evident with the
>Tunguska explosion as seen from the aerial photographs not
>available until WW 11.

This gave him the direction of entry and angle. The direction of
"impact [in this case above ground]" was adverse to the usual
line of entry for meteors and other space junk, but did agree
with the witnesses report of an object seen that day shortly
before the explosion. This scientist did not make any case for
an extraterrestial space ship, just discovered the angle and
direction that the object was travelling.

If the witnesses were right about this direction of travel and
that the object they same made a sweeping curve in its flight
line, that precludes any natural space  material, does it not?
But I will give you the coincidence factor that could have
arisen, that an object was seen but that it was not the cause of
the explosion.

Two American scientists who visited the site in the mid nineties
ignored that data and claimed it came in from a direction, ~90
degrees off that determined by the Soviet scientist many years
before.

They ignored the butterfly pattern and the physics of flow
mechanics.


Don Ledger







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                         Re: Moon Questions - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 13:56:35 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:03:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Ledger


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 10:43:20 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:54:49 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:27:37 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>><snip>

>>>As for being "warned off", Arthur Clarke may have pegged it
>>>after all: "All these worlds are yours except (the
>>>Moon?)... Attempt no (more?)landings there". :)

>>Actually it was Jupiter's satellite Europa that was referred
>>to in that "warning", not our Moon.

>Absolutely, I was simply applying a little "retcon" as did Mr.
>Clarke in the novel.

>Half-joking, but if he had information that we were ever
>"warned off" from ANYWHERE, it would have been the moon, because
>we'd never sent humans to any other place "out there". Hence my
>parenthetical "the Moon" and "more?). My attempt at a semi-
>humorous aside... heavy on the semi... 'S'

A shameful waste of money and resources is what it it was/is,
Kyle. But it wasn't my buck so I can't complain.


Don Ledger







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                   Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 14:22:14 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:11:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Ledger


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:32:21 -0500
>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To:  ufoupdates.nul,  ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:53:07 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

<snip>

>If the comet or meteor was vaporized in the explosion, by
>definition the evidence of the comet or meteor is now "thin air"
>thin air, which would presumably have dissipated by now. I don't
>think there's much hope of "proving" that it was a comet or
>meteor. While it may be comforting for some to have a non-ET
>related explanation, that comfort should not be taken as proof
>of its validity, any more than taking comfort in God's eternal
>love should constitute proof of its validity. I must allow
>though that either may very well be valid. In my reality,
>neither of those give me much comfort, so I look elsewhere.
>Before I read any scientific information about Tunguska, I
>thought that it must have been something anomalous. An
>anachronistic nuke, a meandering "mini-black hole", a
malfunctioning Martian craft, etc.

>The new twist is that ET was saving us.

<anip>

Well as for that, Kyle, I doubt it. If they were around, they
probably looked on with interest, like us watching a lion pull
down an antelope on National Geographic.

>At present, I find no compelling argument for one theory over
>another. A comet or meteor is a possibility, nothing more. Not
>even necessarily the most likely...just a possibility. My comfort
>level however resides somewhat "left" of center on this one.

Well that's my point. Don't forget who posited the "mini black
hole" theory, while completely ignoring the affect such an
unproved phenomenon would have on  everything in the near
vicinity. Anyway, I'm not sure that the mini black hole is given
credence of late. Am I wrong about that?

As for the comet/asteroid or mixed version, where's the trace
material.Usually comets are dirty. Also, how does one apply the
low angle of impact with "the usual" round  impact craters. See
my reply to Stan's on this thread re the Tunguska expolsion
pattern seen from the air. It's not round.


Best,

Don Ledger







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                            Hungarian UFO Photo?

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 18:34:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:13:16 -0400
Subject: Hungarian UFO Photo?


Hi All,

As this list has been on the subject of UFO Photos of late, i.e.
Brunswick etc, I found this picture on Phillip Matle's website:
http://www.beyondroswell.com/Mantle/Hufon.htm

If you have already seen this picture then forgive me, but as
Phillip quotes HUFON on his page:

"HUFON researchers were left with the conclusion that this is a
genuine UFO photograph, and that a real, flat, disc-shaped
object, several meters in diameter can be seen in the photo, the
surface of which appears to reflect the autumn sunshine."

Your thoughts on this picture are sought.


Roy







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                         Venus' 'Erratic Movements'?

From: William Wise <w.wise.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 14:03:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:15:28 -0400
Subject: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'?


When reading through Blue Book case files one often runs
across statements much like the following:

"Venus appears low on the horizon at this time of year and is
unusually bright; it is possible for it to appear to change
color and perform erratic maneuvers when seen through thin
clouds or ground haze."

It would be interesting to observe video of Venus under such
conditions to better understand and appreciate how astronomical
phenomena under unusual conditions can lead to their
misidentification. This would be true for other unusual
phenomena such as sun dogs, moon dogs, and relatively slow
moving bollides as well.

Venus being the most predictable of these phenomena I assume it
would be the easiest to capture on tape during the sort of
conditions that would give rise to misidentification as a UFO.

If any such video is available a link would be most welcome.

William Wise

"Who that has once seen how truth leads on to truth, shall ever
dare to set a bound to knowledge?" -Alfred Noye








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                   Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo - Harrison

From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 06:23:26 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:17:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo - Harrison


>From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 08:52:34 +1000
>Subject: Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 03:42:41 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo

>>I couldn't find the photo, just lots of links. Can you just give
>>us the URL straight to the photo?

>The link to the photo is:

>http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Victorian_sighting.html

Hi Larry

Link to the photo you requested, Robert posted a link to
the recent Victorian sighting which are also interesting.

http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Tewantin.html


--

Regards Diane Harrison

National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director







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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:58:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:19:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:04:03 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:52:46 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>I don't think we should ignore the Arnold sighting just because
>>nothing can be proved one way or the other. I do think,
>>however, that in view of the fact that it was a single-witness
>>sighting, that not too much weight should be given to it.

>That is a whole other argument - albeit a dubious one; Arnold's
>was not a single-witness sighting - from the one you were
>advancing. In the original one, we were to believe that the
>sighting was potentially explainable even by the most far-
> fetched hypotheses (using the word very loosely here; we're
>really talking frantic wing-flapping, in this instance in the
>most literal sense).

There were other reports of UFOs in the same general area for
that day, but there is no good reason to believe that they were
the same things that were seen by Arnold.

You only say hypotheses are far fetched if they would help to
solve the mystery. As I have said, the validity or otherwise of
the various hypotheses depends to a great extent on how accurate
Arnold's recollections of his sighting were.

>Now, however, you're shifting ground and acting more like the
>guy who goes on with his life without heeding Claim X, thus (by
>Marcello Truzzi's formulation) the guy with nothing to prove.
>But of course until I challenged you, you were making claims
>about the case - as you did as well in the Magonia review of my
>Strange Skies book, where you chided me for failing to accept
>assorted pelicanist versions of sightings, prominently
including Arnold's.

I don't expect you or anyone else to accept any particular
explanations, it's just that I think it is irrational to dismiss
them without serious consideration just because they don't
appeal to you.

>It is also a bizarre claim to be made by a Magonian. You have
>spent years making negative claims about UFO reports and
>witnesses. Your sudden retreat into agnosticism-bordering-on-
> indifference is, shall we say, surprising. Or maybe not, since
>convenience and shifting ground play such a notable role in
>pelicanist polemic.

I have not changed my views at all; I have always adopted a
logical and consistent approach to the subject, though I must
admit that in the early years I was sometimes a little too
credulous.

>>What is being claimed - by some people - in this case is that
>>Arnold actually saw some aircraft traveling at supersonic speed
>>at a time when no such craft existed anywhere on Earth. I think
>>most people would regard that as an extraordinary claim.

>Huh? UFO reports are certainly interesting, but they were made
>before Arnold's sighting, and millions have been made since. Far
>from being extraordinary, they are not even that unusual
>anymore. "Extraordinary" is simply an adjective you're using so
>that you can, I take it, dismiss the report because poor Ken
>Arnold was unable to produce wreckage, machinery, or bodies.

I have already explained that Arnold's report was extraordinary
because he estimated that the objects were travelling at
supersonic speeds. As you will probably agree that they were not
meteors, then such a sighting can reasonably be described as
extraordinary. It's really quite simple and logical, so I don't
know why you are making it seem so difficult.

>Certain theories (such as Klass's superplasma, Meade Layne's
>etheric entities, Easton's supersonic pelicans) may arguably be
>termed extraordinary, but UFO sightings themselves hardly fit
>that definition. Whatever UFOs may or may not be, they are an
>ordinary enough phenomenon of general human experience.

The sightings are generally not extraordinary, but the claims
made about them by many ufologists certainly are.

>>If you had actually bothered to read my post you would see that
>>I do not assert that any particular interpretation of the Arnold
>>case is incorrect; I said that different interpretations were
>>_not irrational_. Of course, either all of them are wrong or one
>>of them is right, but I don't pretend to know which.

>Ah, the sudden, convenient conversion to agnosticism, where one
>idea (as long as it does not involve a genuine anomaly) is as
>good as another.

What is a "genuine anomaly"? Could it be just a report for which
there is insufficient or inaccurate information, or which has
not been properly investigated? Please note that I have never
stated, or implied, that one idea "is as good as another". You
are making it up again.

>>Could you please cite the posting or publication in which I
>>declare "that since UFOs don't exist, Arnold _must_ have been
>in >error"? You are making things up again, Jerry, just as some
>>people do to spice up unexciting UFO reports.

>Nice try, John. As you of course know well, you are not going to
>do something so bone-headed as to make explicit such an
>assertion. It is, however, implicit in just about everything
>you've written that I've read, on this List or in Magonia. You
>have a fatal, telling attraction to weak, hard-to-impossible-to-
>support "prosaic" explanations, as opposed to reasoned,
>balanced assessments which leave open the option that when all
>else has failed (as certainly appears to be the case with the
>Arnold sighting) a true anomaly, possibly an interesting one,
>awaits.

This phrase "true anomaly" might sell books and is no doubt
useful on the UFO lecture circuit, but it doesn't actually mean
anything.

>By the way, please don't bore me or insult our collective
>intelligence by pretending to believe that I insist that all
>ostensible UFO reports are of true anomalies. Even the book you
>reviewed recently documents quite the opposite, and then there's
>a large paper trail preceding that book's publication. On the
>other hand, I would be interested in learning which UFO reports
>you regard as genuinely intriguing and so far resistant to
>persuasive prosaic accounting. If any, of course. I'm afraid
>that if you take Easton's pelicans seriously, you'll believe
>anything, but I'd be pleased to be proved wrong.

Of course I don't believe that you think all UFO reports are
"true anomalies" (whatever they might be), but I do get the
impression that you consider certain "classic" cases to belong
to the canon of Sacred UFO Mysteries, which must not be doubted
or subjected to critical examination. I haven't found any cases
which seem inexplicable, except those for which the information
is insufficient or unreliable. There have also been some very
intriguing hoaxes and I find it amusing that so many ufologists
are in denial about these stories being false, even when the
evidence is compelling.


John Harney






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                     Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:28:48 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:20:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo - Hatch


>From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 08:52:34 +1000
>Subject: Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 03:42:41 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo

>>Hello Diane:

>>I couldn't find the photo, just lots of links. Can you just give
>>us the URL straight to the photo?


>Hi Larry,

>The link to the photo is:

>http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Victorian_sighting.html


Thanks Robert! I didn't want to dredge through a large website
on a slow connection.

- Larry






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                         Re: NIDS FT Report - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:42:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:22:20 -0400
Subject: Re: NIDS FT Report - Hatch


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:38:38 -0300
>Subject: Re: NIDS FT Report

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 06:15:24 -0700
>>Subject: NIDS FT Report

>>I don't know if anybody mentioned this earlier, but Colm
>>Kelleher has put out a a darned good study on so-called Flying
>>Triangles.

>>It shows some very nice maps and text, and even mentions my
>>work. Naturally, I find that more interesting than some other
>>threads.

>I notice that NIDS has an icon on one of their maps map that I
assume is from your map at the mouth of Halifax Harbour, Canada.
Is that the Cow Bay FT sighting?


Hello Don:

May I presume you refer to this page I mentioned?

http://www.nidsci.org/articles/8_25trireport.php

Its a large page. I looked all over and don't see anything like
you described. Can you tell me which map/icon you refer to, its
size, description/color and exactly where it is on the page?

I do have this one listing for Cow Bay:

#18196: 2002/08/13 02:20h d=5m 63:33W 44:37N NAM CAN NSC
COW BAY,NS:HUGE BLK DLT BLOCKS STARS:>NW FLAT EDGE FIRST
15Kph:ABS SLNT
Ref# 200 CUFOS: INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER Vol.27 #3

Is that the event you refer to?

Best

- Larry









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                       Jury Out On Wausau Crop Circles

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:27:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:27:46 -0400
Subject: Jury Out On Wausau Crop Circles




Source: The Wausau Daily Herald - Wisconsin

http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/wdhlocal/283816716175454.shtml

08-29-04


Jury Still Out On Origin Of Farmer's Crop Circles

By Amy Kimmes
Wausau Daily Herald
akimmes.nul

TOWN OF WAUSAU - Scott Worden won't say for sure whether he
believes in the paranormal, but he doesn't dismiss the idea
either.

That's why Worden, a longtime dairy farmer, agreed to have two
paranormal investigators inspect six crop circles Saturday that
were found by a farmhand Monday in Worden's barley field.

"Everybody thinks I'm nuts, but I just want to know what caused
it. I know cows more than I know circles," said Worden, 37,
through a sheepish grin. Worden runs the farm with his brother,
Tim, and father, Darrell.

Paranormal investigator Terry Fisk of Eau Claire said he would
first and foremost be looking for evidence that showed the
formations were a hoax.

"You usually can tell how the crops have been laid down and if
there is damage to the crops," said Fisk, 49, who in July
investigated crop circles found in Chippewa Falls. Usually,
plants are bent, not broken in crop circles whose causes are
difficult to explain. In obviously hoaxed circles, the grains
are broken.

The two arrived at the site around 9 a.m. Saturday morning with
cameras and tape measures. They also brought a Geiger counter,
which measures radioactivity, and a TriField meter, an
instrument that measures magnetic, electrical and radio waves,
as well as microwaves.

They were disappointed to find that the field had been harvested
with a combine after the circles were created. It also appeared
that many people had walked through the field.

"We like to compare the crop inside the circles to the crop
outside the circles," said paranormal investigator Chad Lewis of
Eau Claire, who has been investigating crop circles for 10
years. "Obviously, since this has been cut, we can't do that."

The circles' proximity to the road - about 50 feet - could
indicate a hoax.

"Maybe someone wants it to be noticed, plus, it's easy access,"
said Fisk, who, along with Lewis, hosts a radio program called
"The Unexplained" that airs weekly in the Eau Claire area.

Even the lack of activity found on the investigators' TriField
meter could indicate a sham. But the duo won't dismiss the
phenomenon as such at this point.

The waves the meter detects could have dissipated between the
time the crop circles formed and today, Lewis said.

Town chairman Jim Riehle, who was looking at the crop circles
Saturday morning, is convinced the crop circles are the real
deal.

"I used to listen to Art Bell on the radio all the time," Riehle
said. "I don't think this is a hoax. I'm a grain farmer. When
you walk through a field like this, you leave footprints, and
you can still see them three days later. There aren't any
footprints around here, no tracks to show where people would
have come in."

Bell hosted a nationally syndicated all-night radio show called
"Coast to Coast AM" in the 1990s and from time to time from 2001
to 2003. The show, which is still on the air with a different
host, deals with tales of the supernatural, the paranormal and
weird.

Crop circles, most of which are found to be easily explainable
hoaxes, can be formed with a rope, a board and a couple of
people.

You attach the rope to the board, step on the board and move in
a circle, Fisk said. It usually takes two people, with one
person standing on the end of the board at the center of the
circle.

The crop circle investigation won't stop with Saturday's probe,
which is considered preliminary work by the paranormal
investigators.

They say they'll also check with Wisconsin Public Service for
reports of power outages in the area around the same time the
crop circles were formed. They'll also ask airport officials
whether pilots have reported other circles in the area and find
out if police received word of any UFO sightings.

Later, they'll send in soil and crop samples to BLT Crop Circle
Investigations in Cambridge, Mass., for testing. Results from
the lab work will not be available until spring 2005.


[UFO UpDates thanks Greg Boone for the lead]





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                      Sighting 08-28-04 Lancaster Ohio

From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 04:46:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:29:58 -0400
Subject: Sighting 08-28-04 Lancaster Ohio


Subject: UFO Sighting
Location: Lancaster, Oh (Fairfield County)
Date: Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 7:30 P.M.

SUMMARY

By E-mail advisement, a 34-year old resident of Lancaster, Ohio
has reported a UFO sighting by 3-witnesses. The claimant, a 36-
year old friend and his 17-year old son observed the object
before a thunderstorm hit the area around 7:30 p.m. on Saturday,
August 28, 2004, they observed an unusual object in the skies
directly over the city of Lancaster, Ohio.

"This may sound nuts," the witness wrote, "but right before the
storm hit at around 7:30 P.M, I saw something right over the
city of Lancaster, no lights at all.

"It looked like a "V" but it did not move up or down, but it did
drift from North-East to South-East, AGAINST the wind, before
coming to a stop, seeming to stay in place.  It was a VERY dark
shape.

"At first I thought it was a parachute, but who in their right
mind would jump with a  thunder storm  in their face? This
object made NO sound at all, and I watched it for about 7 to 8
minutes."

The 34-year old individual reporting the sighting is married
with a 14-year old son and worked as an electrical contractor
for 10-years included his full name (which is not divulged in
this report, contact info on-file - KY), and also added that the
object: "looked at times like it would invert, looking like a
rectangle during the rotation, and then look like an upside down
"V".

Through 3 question and answer E-mail sessions with the witness,
he said that he was standing on West 5th Avenue and looking
east, directly over Lancaster when watching the unusual object.
He lost sight of it when the clouds 'overtook it' and openly
inquired if this object were  a balloon, how it did not move
with the wind? The claimant also felt that if this object were
somehow tethered, it must have been situated at Anchor Hocking
Glass Factory on about a 1,000 feet of rope.

The witness was so impressed by the sighting that around 9:30 or
10:00 p.m. of Saturday, August 28, he contacted two law
enforcement agencies; The Lancaster City Police and The
Fairfield County Sheriff's Office. Neither agency could supply
additional information and had received no reports. The witness
also took the step of contacting the Fairfield County Airport in
Lancaster, Ohio by E-mail, inquiring if they might have
information for him about tethered balloons over this location.
He has not yet received a reply from the airport.

"I was thinking about the best way to describe this, when it hit
me," he said. "If  you have a flip open cell phone, open it up
until it forms a 'V' when  looking at it from the side. Now
rotate it , so that the face of it is  facing you, and imagine
you cant see the depth of the 'V', just the  outline. There is
the rectangle. Now rotate it all the way down until it  looks
like an upside down 'V.'

COMMENT

Separately, a series of UFO sighting reports emerged from
Lucasville, Ohio (Scioto County) on August 17 and 24th involving
the sighting of an unusual triangular shaped object seen in the
vicinity of The Ohio Correctional Institute. Thus far there are
no additional reports to supplement the Lancaster sighting.

Filed,
August 30, 2004

Kenny Young
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo
Cincinnati UFO Hotline - (513) 588 - 4548







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                         Re: Buying UFO Books - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 12:51:26 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:31:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Buying UFO Books - Pope


>From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:13:39 -0400
>Subject: Buying UFO Books

>Since I have bought UFO and SETI books from several hundred
>different shops and booksellers, I thought it might be a good idea
>to exchange some thoughts on various sources of books (with a
>particular emphasis on my experience in the United Kingdom).

<snip>

Isaac,

To supplement the extensive list you offered, I would add Tlon
Books in the Elephant and Castle shopping centre, and Mysteries
on Monmouth Street. The market at Merton Abbey Mills near
Wimbledon also has a couple of places worth checking out: Books
& Lyrics, and Abbey Books. The latter has a particularly good
selection of books on folklore and mythology. Outside London
there are various booksellers in Glastonbury who stock a wide
range of books on UFOs.


Best wishes,

Nick Pope






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                Re: Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc. - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:38:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:34:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc. - Lehmberg


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:17:59 -0500
>Subject: Re: Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc.

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:23:48 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc.

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 06:45:09 -0500
>>>Subject: Mexican UFOs & Skeptical Inc.

>>>-----

>>>http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/Mexico04c.html

>>>http://members.aol.com/tprinty2/Mexico04d.html

>><snip>

>>Thanks for the link above. I read the article and was suprised
>>he would think me worthy of quoting.

><snip>

>Gee. He quoted me too. Since my initial post was so short, it
>would have been difficult to quote me out of context.

>Regardless of what the objects are, my quote would still stand
>on its own.


For my part, I'll be _damned_ if I'm to be damned for my
appreciation of the intelligence and courage of the people of
Mexico!

Printy's puling is smoothly written bigotry, intellectual and
otherwise, "...but that's just _my_ take on it..." - used
without permission. <G>


alienview.nul
EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net







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                          Re: Moon Questions - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:10:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:50:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - King


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 13:56:35 -0300
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 10:43:20 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

<snip>

>A shameful waste of money and resources is what it it was/is,
>Kyle. But it wasn't my buck so I can't complain.

Hi Don,

If by "shameful" you mean that the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo program
never fed the hungry, or clothed the naked, I must agree. Of
course, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked still seems to
be a very low priority for this government, yet we stopped
sending men to the moon long ago. If by waste of money and
resources you mean that despite the high cost it failed to
advance our understanding of manned space flight, or failed to
produce any seriously useful information, I would disagree. Your
second statement appears to contradict your first, unless you
mean that I should ignore your first.

In agreement with your initial comment however, I honestly think
NASA "jumped the shark" when they sent a car (rover). To me,
that was just a poke in the eye to the Russians. There was
certainly no compelling reason to send a car. But it was a
uniquely American symbolology to have astronauts "golf-carting"
across the lunar landscape. Even as a youngster, I thought that
was a waste. If the LEM was capable of holding a golf cart, it
would seem they could have sent some lasting equipment or
monitoring sensors, or any number of more important things. I
lost interest in Apollo after the rover flight. It appeared to
me that NASA had begun to look at the moon as a joke, and began
to parody its importance. The golf shot added to this comic
metaphor. I think about whomever was tasked with sterilizing and
packing the driver and ball. He must have felt at least a little
sheepish about his "contribution" to the space program.

We here in America often seem to feel it necessary to over-do
when the doing is impressive enough. That seems as true now as
it ever did then.

Best Regards,

Kyle







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              Zen & Sagan & The Art Of Scientific Foot-Shooting

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:34:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:51:42 -0400
Subject: Zen & Sagan & The Art Of Scientific Foot-Shooting


http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/Literature/essays/mzs/foot-shooting.html

Okay, this is the funniest darned look at mainstream science
I've ever read outside of 'MAD Magazine'.

Some of our favorites are mentioned like Sagan, Kaku, Asimov.

What's most enlightening is that this 'editorial' is more like a
focus on how one perceives another's foibles to chastise and in
doing so tosses one's own foibles out there.

Someone 'round here has a wise saying about 'if you can't attack
the data, attack the person' ?  Hope I quoted that right :)


Best,

Greg







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                          Re: Moon Questions - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 12:43:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:53:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - King


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:14:04 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:20:06 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

<snip>

>>As I don't think I'd choose Messrs. Barrett, Waters, et.al. to
>>back me up in a discussion about the value of the Moon's far
>>side, I naively assumed that the reference was more light-
>>hearted than accusatory... or revelatory.

>Naive is spot on accurate, I suspect, and "assume" makes an ass
>of you and me, Mr. King, but have no fear, Sir, I intend to be
>a source of ongoing disappointment for you. Be sure to keep us
>all posted on your "revelations", won't you? I'm sure I'll find
>them "revelatory" myself.

At least you have now made your intent clear. And I expect that
my disappointment, if not expressed, will (like so much of your
rhetoric applied to me) be invented.

Oh, and The Rubaiyat was written by Omar Khayyam.


Kyle






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              New Mexico's Richardson Headed For More Trouble?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:58:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:58:26 -0400
Subject: New Mexico's Richardson Headed For More Trouble?




Source: The Silver City Daily Press  Silver City, New Mexico

http://www.thedailypress.com/artman/publish/article_1724.shtml

08-30-04


Inside The Capitol

Jay Miller Syndicated Columnist


SANTA FE =97 Gov. Bill Richardson appears to be headed for more
trouble with his latest request for full disclosure by the
federal government of everything it knows about the crashed
flying saucer the military originally claimed to have found
near Roswell in 1947.

Richardson made his request in the foreword of a book about a
recent archeological dig at the crash site by scientists from
the University of New Mexico. Both the dig and the book were
sponsored by the SCIFI Channel. Richardson says he wants to get
to the bottom of what happened so he wants the case reopened and
our best scientific investigation to be conducted.

That sounds suspiciously like what Richardson wants done with
the Billy the Kid case. He thinks modern scientific methods
should be able to reveal secrets that historians for more than a
hundred years have not been able to find.

The sheriffs who want to dig up Billy and his mom to compare
their DNA, now have brought Dr. Henry Lee into the case. Lee, a
nationallyknown forensic scientist, has been asked to find
Billy's blood on a carpenter's bench he might have been laid on,
since the gravedigging project still is in limbo.

I am interviewing other nationally known forensic scientists
and soon will have some possiblysurprising information for you
about what they think of Dr. Lee's qualifications and research
methods.

Possibly, Richardson can get away with asking that the UFO
investigation be reopened without harming his reputation. The
late Rep. Steve Schiff, of Albuquerque, seemed unharmed by his
request for a congressional investigation into the Roswell UFO.
He even got some action out of the government. The Air Force
switched its weather balloon explanation to a spy balloon before
closing the case again.

But Schiff had such a buttondown reputation that he survived
any image problems. Richardson's quest for Billy's bones, fol
lowed by a search for UFOs, however, may cause some chuckles
around the state and nation from those who don't see eye to eye
with our governor. It's not that he's a kook, but he may be a
little too anxious to promote interest in our state.

The use of science to prove what one wants to find has cast a
shadow, lately, on the scientific community that worries serious
scientists. Recently, in Russia, scientist Yuri Labvin an
nounced that a research team he heads intended to find evidence
that aliens were involved in the tremendous blast that leveled
hundreds of square miles of Siberian forest, without leaving a
crater.

Labvin said that the intention of the expedition was to find
remnants of an alien spaceship. And whadda ya know? A week
later, they found one. An "extraterrestrial technical device"
and a large block of metal were recovered and taken to a
laboratory for study. The complicity of laboratories in such
pseudoscientific hoaxes also is becoming a concern.

To his likely detriment, Richardson has also picked up on Los
Alamos National Laboratory director Pete Nanos' characterization
of scientists who don't follow security laws as being
"cowboys." That's what he called them on Don Imus' morning talk
show recently. It is surprising that Imus didn't call him on it,
since Imus grew up on a ranch and fancies himself still as a
cowboy.

It may not have bothered Imus, but in Cowboy Country, which
includes much of New Mexico, those will be fighting words come
next election.

Richardson isn't running this time, but that won't keep
Republicans from running against him if it can help them. GOP
legislative candidates from throughout the state ran against
"Manny and Ray" even though they represented districts a hundred
miles away. Back in the '80s, Republican legislative candidates
still were running against former Gov. Toney Anaya even after he
had left office.

With Manny and Ray no longer on the political scene and Bill
Clinton long gone, Republicans have to find an unworthy opponent
somewhere. And it might as well be old Bill.


Copyright 2004 by TheDailyPress.com






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             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:37:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:59:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Deardorff


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:12:33 -0300
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:52:46 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 12:08:38 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

><snip>

>>Those who are interested must use their judgement to assess how
>>accurate they think Arnold's report might have been.

>The fact is John, there would have been no one else that Arnold
>could have had as a passenger in his Callair that day, who could
>have been better qualified to say what Arnold encountered.
>Arnold was in his element and was the expert witness. Who else
>would you suggest?

It shouldn't be forgotten that there was a second witness to the
"Arnold" sighting, namely the prospector, Fred Johnson of
Portland. He viewed one of the UFOs through his prospector's
telescope for quite a few seconds, and got a closer view than
Arnold. After he wrote his letter to the Air Foce about it, he
was interviewed by the FBI, who in their letter described him as
"a very reliable individual."


Jim Deardorff








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                 Humanoid Sighting Leaves Chilean Witnesses

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:02:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:01:47 -0400
Subject: Humanoid Sighting Leaves Chilean Witnesses


Source: INFOBAE.COM
Date: Monday, August 30, 2004

Incredible Humanoid Sighting Leaves Witnesses Speechless

http://www.infobae.com/notas/nota.php?Idx=3D136324&IdxSeccion=3D100

Mysterious creatures were seen by numerous witnesses in an area
near the city of Coquimbo, Chile. According to their reports,
they resemble small humans that float through the air without
making a sound.

Francisco Vega, a laborer at the "El Pelambre" mine, was in the
company of his brother and two other laborers of the Argando=F1a
ceramics company in the Planicie de Panul sector, a location
adjacent to La Herradura de Coquimbo, where he owns a plot of
property whose borders required demarcation.

At a distance of some 20 meters, Francisco witnessed what
appeared to be a small "monkey" that was approaching them,
walking along the plain. Upon looking at it closely, he saw that
it was a human-like creature, but red in color.

"It had a very bulky head, was no taller than 80 centimeters and
looked like a gas bag, because it was so fat. My initial
impression was that it resembled a rugby player," said the
witness, according to the Chilean press.

"Only a few seconds went by and I shouted very loud son that my
brother and the workers would realize what I was looking at," he
added.

The surpriese among experienced by the four men was even more
complex when they noticed the strange being levitate over the
plain, remaining in the air for several minutes.

Later, they said the creature began heading toward the sea at
low speed, finally vanishing. The event occured in July of this
year.

A similar event befell a group of five youths who were spending
the night at that lookout point. They saw strange entities
emerge from the sea, gradually coming closer.

They were unable to make out any details at first, but later
added that they were diminutive humanoids surrounded by
something like an aura of light. After remaining motionless in
mid-air, the beings began to disappear.

The entire group was able to see these strange entities, and all
members coincided in their descriptions and the details of the
visitors that emerged from the sea.


Translation (c) Scott Corrales Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Alicia Rossi and Liliana Nunez








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               HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings -

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:31:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:07:32 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings -


HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings

Date: Newsletter released August 30, 2004


Jacksonville Florida One Big Bright Light

Date: 1947 or 1948

Message: In your report about 1940s you missed a big one, In the
summer of 1947 or 1948 in Jacksonville Florida I was about 10
years old when my whole family saw one big bright light in the
sky about 20 mile out at about 10,000 feet, and out of this real
bright light three smaller bight lights came out and sat there
for about a minute. Then they would shoot across the sky in
different directions, I would say 20 miles from the starting
point and they would come to a complete stop, and some times
they would sit there for a little bit and shoot off into a
different direction. All three of the smaller lights would move
in this matter. The real bight light stayed in the same
location, about a hour of this they returned to the big bright
light and it just disappeared.

This happen about 3 or 4 days in a row, in the same location in
the sky. Approx: half the city called in to report this action
they saw in the sky and the newspaper put a story in the paper
about these lights because so many people saw them across the
city. Alot of people thought that is was going to be the end of
the world.

The reason I can tell the different in altitude and distance is
because I am a pilot, with lots of hours of flight time in my
own aircraft, this was one time in my life that scared me and my
whole family.

If I knew how to get the record from the newspaper, I sure I
could download it for you because after three days they didn't
say another word about it. The military said they had no
aircraft in the air at that time. These lights were traveling at
over approx: 10,000 mile a hour or more and they didn't make a
sound. At the time they were training pilots in PBYs at a Navy
Base and you could hear them 30 miles away, that's how much
noise they made. So it was not any air plane, the jet aircraft
was not in production at that time and they could not fly at
that speed even if there were. This is the only UFO experience
that I have had in my life time.. and I can assure you that they
are out there.

Thank you to the witness for the interesting report.

---------------------

Annapolis, Maryland Triangular Stationary Lights

Date: Summer of 1971
Time: 8:30 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Triangular

Full Description of event/sighting: My friend and I were walking
down the street of our neighborhood. We both saw these lights up
in the sky which were just stationary in the shape of a
triangle. Three lights. We kept walking....not paying much
attention to it, but as we started talking about what it was we
saw, there seemed to be a discrepancy in what she saw and I saw.
So we turned around to check it out again. We had to walk back
to almost the exact spot where we were, to really see it, and as
we stood there looking up at it, it began to spin. It just
hovered, which really freaked us out because there was
absolutely No sound coming from it. And as we stood there it
just started moving off at a pretty rapid rate of speed.

Never a sound was made from it. It seemed so close when we first
saw it, but I don't ever remember seeing anything but the 3
lights in the triangular shape. I always knew it was not of our
world, but of course nobody else would believe that. I don't
know what kind of craft, even today, is able to just hover
without any engine noise. Do you? I was only 14 years old at the
time, but I'll never forget it.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-------------------------

North East Lincs, England Sphere

Date: October 1994
Time: Approx: 6:00 p.m.

Location of Sighting: Over fords farm reading England.
Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Sphere

Full Description of event/sighting: round sphere bright luminous
orange with vein like marks throughout about the size of a house
traveling in a straight line across the sky i was only a short
distance away waiting for a bus . I watched the object for about
20 seconds it wasn't moving very fast but then it began to
ascend at an angle of about 60 degrees and continued to ascend
till it disappeared from view. I didn't report the event because
there was only myself as a witness but from that time I have
been a firm believer in these objects. The object I saw was
impossible for it to have been made by humans at the present
time I could tell this from the way it was glowing and by its
shape and size and the way it ascended into the sky. This is a
true account.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------------

Rural Roy, Washington, (Puget Sound area sighting)

Date: 1998 (maybe 1997)
Time: Between 9:00 and 11:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Triangle, very large.

Full Description of event/sighting: In the year 1998 (maybe
1997) I lived in a rural farming area (5 miles east of the city
of Roy) about 20 miles south of Tacoma, Washington. Our ranch
was directly under the McChord AFB flight line landing zone and
a few miles south of the Ft. Lewis training area. Very common
was all sorts of aircraft flying over the house between 500 and
1500 feet. This particular evening was cool and clear. I was in
the house with my kids when my now ex-wife was outside feeding
the horses when she began pounding the living room window so
hard I thought she would break it. She yelled at me to come out
side. When I did, I observed overhead and slightly to the north
and northbound an almost silent craft. As I recall now, I
remember hearing a hum.

What I distinctly recall is the back side had at least two
lighted cylindrical ports. They appeared to be exhaust ports.
Both were glowing yellowish and "dripping" some sort of burning
flame, not unlike plastic drips as it burns. The drips fell from
the craft only a few feet and extinguished. What my ex told me
was that the craft was a very large triangle, several football
fields large, much larger then the common large McChord
aircraft. The craft had numerous windows on it that emitted
light as if interior lights were on.  The craft came from the
west, just above treetop level, floated to directly above our
house and then made a right angle LEFT turn, over our house and
then proceeded north. The craft was moving slower then the
slowest aircraft we have ever seen and we had seen probably
thousands over the past approximate 10 years that we lived
there. This craft was NOTHING like we have ever seen or heard
and moved like NOTHING we have ever seen or heard. We were not
the only ones to see it but we were the only ones who reported
being within 500 feet of it. The craft proceeded north over
Tacoma where many of our friends reported seeing it from several
miles away. It continued north thru the Puget Sound area to
north of Seattle.

The local news showed the footage of the crafts lights obtained
from the Space Needle. Official response was that it was falling
space debris. The military had no reasonable response although
many reported the military helicopters firing up and taking
chase. As I recall we heard the copters firing up from our
house, others saw them flying after it. Later reports came out
saying that it had been earlier seen in Oregon and as I recall
California and then as far north as Canada. I did report it to
one of the internet UFO reporting sites. At the time I was a
Tacoma police officer, my ex wife ran our horse breeding ranch.
Its suspicious that it purposely flew in the flight line for
McChord AFB which makes me think its some top secret government
project. But then why would it fly over heavily populated areas
and allow itself to be recorded by the Space Cam on top of the
Space Needle?

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------

Edmonton, Alberta "Classic" Flying Saucer

Date: Approx: March 2004
Time: 4:00 p.m.

I just found your email address on unknowncountry.com saying to
submit UFO reports to you. I didn't really know who exactly to
report this to, so you're my best bet so far. As I was driving
in south Edmonton earlier this year (probably around March), I
saw an absolutely huge UFO in the sky during broad daylight
hours. It was obviously some type of metallic structure, and
matched most other UFO descriptions. It was probably about 500
feet in the air and 300 feet in front of me, moving very slowly
and changing it's direction a lot as if it were lost or scanning
the ground looking for something. I tried to follow it but it
disappeared into thin air after about 10 or 15 seconds after I
spotted it. This is the first time I've ever seen something like
this, I'm not crazy, I know what I saw.

Additional Information:

Okay, it was a while ago, and I never wrote it down, but I'll
give you all of the info I am sure about.

Date: Approx March 2004

Weather: Sunny day with scattered clouds (at about 4:00 p.m.
because I was driving a friend home)

Sky Location: I was driving East and it was probably about 60
or 70 degrees upwards, just enough that I had to make an effort
to bend my neck to see it.

Description: It looked like the "classic" flying saucer (two
plates pressed together), it was silver/grey, obviously
metallic, probably about 100-150 feet in diameter (I'm not too
sure), & no sound.

Airports: There is the Edmonton International Airport probably
about 45 km away from where I was, but this was not a plane. No
nearby military bases.

Extra (about lost/scanning): Like I said, it was moving back and
forth across the sky, stopping, and moving up and down, all very
slowly. I was actually very surprised to see it being absent on
the 6:00 news. I don't know why, but as I watched it, it
reminded me of a person looking for a contact lens on the ground
(slowly looking around and scanning areas one at a time). I'm
sorry I can't elaborate on that more, but that's the closest
thing I could compare the way in which it was acting.

I hope any of this can be useful to you. Thank you for taking
these reports by the way, I'm glad someone takes me seriously.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------

Peterborough, Ontario Triangular Craft

Date: July 5, 2004
Time: 4:00 a.m.

In the early morning of July 5 2004 at approximately 4:00 a.m at
Peterborough Ontario Canada my cousin and myself observed a fast
moving object overhead and then it disappear over an area called
Little lake. A few moments later we observed a triangle of three
lights (bright). We thought it was just the stars at first but
then the lights we thought were stars began to move, it then
disappeared back towards Little Lake (easterly direction) Now
fast forward 2 days at approximately 3.30 a.m. on Lafayette Ave
in Peterborough.

Earlier in the evening I had observed a bright streak in the sky
toward the east so I was watching the eastern sky close.

All of a sudden I observed 2 small bright fast moving objects
moving to the east. Very fast I might add so here I'm watching
towards the east not paying attention directly overhead. All of
a sudden everything just seemed to get real quiet. Eerie quiet.

I'm looking east then I just get these creepy feeling that
something was watching me, you know what I mean. I turned and
looked down the street towards the General Electric plant (900
feet approximately ) I swear I couldn't hear the background
noises you usually hear traffic dogs etc.

So now I notice the glow from the street light seemed to be
changing color on the cars on the street. Then I look up. My god
there it is coming right over the house. This thing is massive !

I swear I could have hit it with a sling shot. So its kind of
slowly idling east, at like I don't know 5 kmish maybe. The
craft stops, then starts going sideways now towards the GE
plant, it seemed as wide as the distance between GE and our
house. Now I don't know much about this stuff but I swear this
is one evil looking outfit with 3 lights (brownish orange very
dim ) One at each point of the triangle not that it is pointed
but at the ends. The ends are rounded off, I will send a little
drawing I made. It seems to be a blue black color but flat no
shine, almost a rough finish, a circular dome dead center of the
bottom in a hexagon type enclosure. No light or glowing color on
this dome. This is set in an indented area that almost had the
look of the surface of a pool. I could now see the one side that
appeared to have some kind of indentations probably doors or
some kind of hatch. It sat there for probably 3 minutes, but
seemed like a lifetime.

Then it just moved so fast you couldn't even tell the direction
it went. Anyway I have seen it twice since then but it was a lot
higher up. Probably 1500 feet.

Maybe its just me or maybe something else but I know they know I
saw them. I don't think these guys are real friendly. I could
just feel it. Anyway couple observations. Next day my neighbors
Dodge Intrepids battery was completely zapped. He had to replace
the alternator and battery the next day. His Olds wouldn't start
either, the alternator and battery fried. His Name is (removed)
and I'm sure he would verify that. My Camry's two month old
Kenwood stereo fried. Rear light wiring fried. Battery was
completely dead by 2:00 o'clock in the afternoon, so I recharged
it and it came back to life. Still had problems with the wiring
so I had it repaired at Russell Toyota in Peterborough 489
dollars...

One other thing I would like to add, there was the weak aroma of
like a burnt transformer in the air for a few minutes after the
craft left. I might add as well I went into the back yard and
alley behind the house to get a good view of this thing because
I couldn't see all three lights from the street because of its
size.

Sighting Dates and times:

July 5, 2004...4:00 a.m

July 7, 2004 - Close sighting as per sketches 3:30 a.m

July 17, 2004 - 1500 feet approximately details hard to see just
shape and 3 light. Moved east then drifted towards G.E

August 26, 2004 - Triangle lights looked like brighter than
usual stars moving east.

Additional Information:

Well the first object was moving very fast but slowing to some
extent.

It was moving from the west towards the east and dropping till
we lost site of it behind the buildings. It was an orangish
object. Very bright !!

We would have been looking in a North to Northeast direction. I
get mixed up with the directions. The altitude I would say when
first in view was probably 5000 feet descending to 1000 feet, It
came on what seemed to be an exact path of the triangle lights.
The first triangular lights seemed to be a bit bigger and
clearer but I had no idea until I saw the one over the house how
big it was.

What I found out today is that General Electric here supposedly
stopped making reactor parts years ago. But I found a site while
searching that sheds some light on this  http://www.cnwc-
cctn.ca/gefuel.html I asked people what they do there at the
plant and nobody seems to know. I have only lived here a while
so I thought they might have been making fridges or something.
At the gate to GE on Monaghan drive it seems really secure. This
is a huge plant

I can see the plant right from my (removed) but that street it
is on called Albert and is a half mile long and the plant runs
the distance of the street. I guess there are only 700 workers
in the plant now but it did employ upwards of 7000 at one time.

They make fuel pellets for the Candu Reactors but you can't find
it on one single GE site anywhere..

About the time: It seemed like it was 3 minutes but when I came
back in the house it was 5:17 by my computer. So one and a half
hours passed roughly.

This thing was directly overhead but it sort of stopped then
drifted towards the plant. What I mean by directly overhead (the
front) I assume it was the front seemed directly over and inline
with the driveway.

I had to go into the backyard, into the alley to see it all and
that's when I got the feeling they knew I was there. Then I went
running back out to the street and saw a girl running like heck
towards the other street (Chamberlaine) It rotated slightly to
its left as it drifted over the plant. I still get Goosebumps
just thinking about it. The front moved till it was almost out
past Jackson Ave. I'll see if I can do a picture over a map if I
can find one.

Unusual sensations: Well other than being freaked out I seemed
to have my hearing kind of muffled. Like I had a head cold sort
of effect. A couple times I had the momentary feeling like I was
lost or didn't know where I was

Weather: Its always been overcast, partly cloudy. But the sky
seems to clear up just at the right time.

See what really scared the ba jezus out of me was that I was
watching to the east looking for those lights to reappear and
the thing kind of creeped up behind me. So I was really startled
when I looked up so it was just moving dead slow at this point
from the west.

Street lights: The reflections on the cars changed from the
usual glow, to a more I guess orangish glow. I saw the shadows
on the street change a bit so I knew there was something above
me and I looked up and just thought, Oh my god, what the heck is
that. I don't think anyone would have heard me scream if I did
scream any way. Its like noise was being suppressed somehow.
Like some kind of silence field around the thing and maybe I was
in that field? Not sure.

Would be 3 cars I know of that had electrical screw ups the next
day. I don't talk to a lot of people around here and the flood
happened the next day, so 24 hours after the sighting everything
was so crazy.

I sure had some weird dreams and stuff since this happened. I
seem to really notice the shape in architecture and stuff. My
wife says its like I've had some little psychic twinge switched
on. Like I'll know the phone is going to ring before it does
things like that.

Anyway here are some maps so you can get a feel for the layout
of the area .The area in Grey is the GE Plant I tried to show
where the Triangle stopped then moved sideways until it was over
G.E. 2 of the maps are just for reference kind of.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

To view images, please visit: http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=
article&sid=1777

----------------------

Williamson, New York Disk Shaped Craft

Date: August 17, 2004
Time: Approx: 9:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Disk shaped.

Full Description of event/sighting: My son just ran inside to
tell me he saw a disk shaped object with a green light on top
and some kind of blue illumination under. The sky was dark but
not black yet. I asked him how he could see both top and bottom.
He says it was stationary in the sky, in a tilted position. It
was thin. He compared it to a CD. It seemed metallic.

Then it flew at great speed (he called it superextraterrestrial
speed) towards east. There's a ridge over there so he lost it
behind the trees.

I asked him to extend his arm and tell me if it was bigger than
his thumb and he said it was as big as his 2 thumbs together.

Additional Information:

Hi Brian!

My son just saw a UFO! I had him draw it because I thought he
could have seen a meteor or something. Saucer shaped, green
light on top, blue light on bottom. I'll go fill a report on the
site. He said the bluish light under made it look rusty colour.

I missed it because hubby wouldn't come with me outside to look
at the stars!

I'll try to see if someone else saw it around here. Pilots
approaching. Rochester airport must have seen it!

1 - Clear sky, no clouds, no haze, no rain. Crescent moon. It
wasn't quite night yet. Dark sky but not totally night. I went
outside right after he came in, to get a visual description of
the trajectory and the sky was clear.

2 - South of our house. It means south of Lake Ontario. Our
house is about 4 to 5 miles south of the lake. We are roughly 35
miles east of Rochester.

3 - It shot straight towards East. No wobbling, no zig-zag,
straight path. It was stationary in the sky, tilted, then sort
of leveled up and traveled towards east at great speed. He
didn't see any spinning or other movement.

4 - There was no sound at all.

5 - It looked rusty red, reddish brown to him. Green light on
top always on, not blinking. He says it's hard to describe. It
didn't look like a green light you'd find on an airplane, like
an electric light. It looked like a green marble of light,
glowing. That's the best description he can give me. At first
was tilted in a way that he saw the green dot of light on top
and the blue illumination coming from under was seen as a corona
of blue light around and it seemed to be all over under the
craft when he saw it speed away.

6 - No physical sensation or other.

7 - We have a tree that's about 20-22 feet high and the craft
seemed to be between 3 and 5 inches over it from his point of
view, you know when you measure with your thumb and index
finger. He was working on his bicycle and I measured he was
roughly 85 feet from the tree. We have a big yard, 2 1/2 acres
of land. But the craft was further down south, as he saw it. As
wide as his two thumbs put together when extending his arms up.
His thumbs are almost as big as an adult but a bit slender. He's
short, 5'3". I wish I had gone out in the yard like I wanted
to!!!! It was a hammock night!

8 - From the moment he noticed it, it stayed stationary for
about 4 to 5 seconds. The whole sighting may have lasted 7
seconds. The ridge is only a few miles away and he lost sight of
it when it flew past the ridge. And the ridge is not that high.

9 - Hard to tell. We can see airplanes approaching Rochester
airport every night in this part of the sky. I asked him if it
was longer than the airplanes we see in the sky doing their
approach. He says about twice the length. He says it looked to
be about same height as the airplanes we see approaching
Rochester. There is also a very small airport in Williamson and
it's near the ridge. I doubt it's manned at all times though.
It's for people with small planes, people who fly for the fun of
it.

Thank you to the witness for the great report.

Drawing can be found at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1778

----------------------------

Vernon, B.C. Strange Effect

Date: August 19 2004
Time: After midnight

Hi Brian

I have been reporting the globes that have been around Vernon
since April. I became familiar with their behavior, and where
they would be. There was usually four. Then there was only one
after a three week lapse. I am out every night at the time I
have seen their activity, but only the one has appeared once a
week since July. Two weeks ago the one stopped over the airport
in the clouds and flared three short times. This was different
as I have seen them pulse and flare but not short sharp blasts
of light. The globe is all light and my binoculars can't make
out anything that could be called a vehicle. When it flares it
only increases in size equal to the light it emits. It does not
morph into anything or display many lights. It is something
covered in light and remains the size of a seed pearl.

Thursday night something really different happened. The sky over
the airport had low clouds and heat haze from the ground. I
looked to the spot where I have seen them appear over the
airport. The globe flared and then really flared to blinding
white. The different part is this. If I hadn't been sitting down
I would have had to sit down. As it was I was set back in my
chair.

I felt this light press through me. I did not lose time, or
lapse in consciousness or feel fear.

A friend in Salmon Arm witnessed the same thing only she said
she nearly fell over and the horses in the field all jumped. She
was out at midnight looking for her cat. She said no noise, no
explosion just pure white light that went to the back of her
head. This is the first time I have felt a light force. A light
force. Sounds kind of cool and it was.

Take care.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------------

Terrace, B.C. Lights Traveling Across The Sky

Date: August 19, 2004
Time: Approx: 12:20 a.m.

Short sighting, I witnessed 5 lights, and each light separated
into 3 more lights, each all in a horizontal fashion. There are
2 witnesses on the 19th of August 2004. The shortest UFO
sighting I have ever seen. They were too far away to see any
detail. The lights were traveling due west, I was standing on
the Southside of Terrace when they flew almost overhead.

Additional Information:

The lights were seen at about 12:20... maybe within 10 minutes
of that either way. The sighting only lasted a few seconds on
account of them moving so fast. There color was almost a
florescent white, with a blue tinge to it. They were big enough
to see that they weren't stars, but an aircraft can't maneuver
side to side like that. The number is actually unknown...it
started with 5 , but then they split off into many other lights
flying all parallel to one other. As for the weather, it was a
perfectly clear night.

Thank you to the witness for this report.

------------------------

Manville, Alberta Giant Orange Ball Of Light

Date: August 29, 2004
Time: Approx: 2:30 a.m.

A phone call came in from a witness who was traveling on Highway
16 (Yellowhead Highway). On August 29, 2004 at approx: 2:25 a.m.
the fellow had pulled his vehicle off to the side of the road to
stretch his legs as he had been on the road for sometime, he had
been heading westbound. That part of the highway had four lanes
and he had pulled over into a pull off area.

As he walked around and eventfully was getting back into the car
to start his journey again, he noticed traveling from west to
east a large, round/circular glowing orange object, which he
first thought was a beautiful Autumn Moon. (this was the first
thing that came to mind). He described it as being roughly one
and a half time the size of a full moon. The sighting lasted for
approx: 5 seconds and was seen low on the horizon. He also
stated that is was heavily clouded over at that time and it had
rained earlier. So the object was traveling below the cloud
cover. There was no trail or tail following behind the object,
also no sound was heard at all.

A Freightliner which was coming down the highway in his
direction seemed to be slowing at a good rate and the witness
figured that the driver had to have been observing the same
object as he was because as soon as the object disappeared from
sight the truck sped up again.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------------

Parksville, B.C. Strange Cloud

Date: August 29, 2004
Time: 8:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 5
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Cloud

Full Description of event/sighting: I, and others, saw a dark
cloud like form move from south to north at a height of +- 700
feet over the ocean between two points of land. My comment to
others to attract their attention was" look at the moving
cloud!" It was the size of 1/2 a cruise ship and moved rapidly
across the horizon. It did not reappear from the island that it
disappeared behind. The distance away could not be determined
but is estimated to be around 6 miles as the points of land were
+- 3 miles.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Home - Phone 250 845 2189
Box 1091, Houston, B.C.
Canada, VOJ 1ZO
email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com
HBCC UFO RESEARCH Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 31

                         Re: Moon Questions - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:02:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:09:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Kaeser


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:10:32 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 13:56:35 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 10:43:20 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

><snip>

>>A shameful waste of money and resources is what it it was/is,
>>Kyle. But it wasn't my buck so I can't complain.

<snip>

>In agreement with your initial comment however, I honestly think
>NASA "jumped the shark" when they sent a car (rover). To me,
>that was just a poke in the eye to the Russians. There was
>certainly no compelling reason to send a car. But it was a
>uniquely American symbolology to have astronauts "golf-carting"
>across the lunar landscape. Even as a youngster, I thought that
>was a waste. If the LEM was capable of holding a golf cart, it
>would seem they could have sent some lasting equipment or
>monitoring sensors, or any number of more important things. I
>lost interest in Apollo after the rover flight. It appeared to
>me that NASA had begun to look at the moon as a joke, and began
>to parody its importance. The golf shot added to this comic
>metaphor. I think about whomever was tasked with sterilizing and
>packing the driver and ball. He must have felt at least a little
>sheepish about his "contribution" to the space program.

>We here in America often seem to feel it necessary to over-do
>when the doing is impressive enough. That seems as true now as
>it ever did then.


Kyle, Don, et al

I think it is somewhat of a disservice to those who worked hard
to accomplish what they did with the limited resources and
political infighting that dogged the race for space for decades.
 The LEM was created to provide a broader look at the moon and
allow them the ability to go a bit further in their exploration.
 I'm not sure the grass was any greener when they got further
from the lander, but how would we know if we didn't try?

There's also a lot of current medical and manufacturing
technology that was a direct result of NASA's research (and that
of contractors), and whose to say how those developments might
have come about without our race into space.  We can complain
about the resources that might have gone to feed the poor, but
how many people would be sicker today without the medical
advances, and advances in exotic materials, that derived from
Space research.

Just  my 2-cents.


Steve







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   Aug > Aug 31

                        Re: Moon Questions - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:08:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:10:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Lehmberg


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 12:43:45 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:14:04 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:20:06 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

><snip>

>>>As I don't think I'd choose Messrs. Barrett, Waters, et.al. to
>>>back me up in a discussion about the value of the Moon's far
>>>side, I naively assumed that the reference was more light-
>>>hearted than accusatory... or revelatory.

>>Naive is spot on accurate, I suspect, and "assume" makes an ass
>>of you and me, Mr. King, but have no fear, Sir, I intend to be
>>a source of ongoing disappointment for you. Be sure to keep us
>>all posted on your "revelations", won't you? I'm sure I'll find
>>them "revelatory" myself.

>At least you have now made your intent clear. And I expect that
>my disappointment, if not expressed, will (like so much of your
>rhetoric applied to me) be invented.

One man's clarity is another man's pond water, Mr. King, and
inventions must first be invented. It is not enough to just be,
merely, inventive.

>Oh, and The Rubaiyat was written by Omar Khayyam.

That was _delightfully_ abstruse!

"The moving finger writes and having writ moves on," Mr. King.
 "All your piety nor wit cannot call back a single line to
alter, nor all your tears wash a word of it."


alienview.nul
EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Aug > Aug 31

                 Re: Microbiologist Death Question - Redfern

From: Nicholas Redfern <nick.redfern.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:09:11 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:16:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Microbiologist Death Question - Redfern


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:44:05 EDT
>Subject: Who's Bumping Off The Microbiologists?


>This story about the ongoing accident prone microbiologists
>is getting scarier by the day.

>Does it have anything at all to do with Ufology? Were any of
>them connected?

In answer to the question about further research on those
microbiologist deaths of a couple of years ago, there is a book
coming out on that, later this year or early next by a guy
named Dan Tanner.

I met Tanner earlier this year and his book was at proof page
then and I got to read some of it.

No UFO material, but it's a huge book and there are 2 chapters
on the Marconi "Star Wars" scientist deaths in the UK in the
1980s as well.

Tanner told me the provisional title is "Bio-Death: State
Sanctioned Murder?"


Nick Redfern







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   Aug > Aug 31

             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:38:53 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:58:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Friedman


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:58:00 +0100
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:04:03 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>I haven't found any cases
>which seem inexplicable, except those for which the information
>is insufficient or unreliable. There have also been some very >
intriguing hoaxes and I find it amusing that so many ufologists
>are in denial about these stories being false, even when the
>evidence is compelling.

>John Harney

John,

The above is truly an extraordinary claim and frankly nonsense.
The professonals at Battelle Memorial Institute who prepared
"Blue Book Special Report No. 14" (Copy available, but beware,
it is loaded with data) found that they had to label 689 of the
3201 cases (21.5%) they examined as UNKNOWN completely separate
and distinct from the 298 (9.3%) which they listed as
INSUFFICIENT INFORMATION.

Furthermore they did a quality evaluation of all the cases and
found that the better the quality of the case the MORE likely to
be listed as UNKNOWN. They must have had tough criteria because
only 9.6% were listed as EXCELLENT, yet 35.1% of them were
UNKNOWNS while only 18.3% of the 525 POOR cases and 15.6% of the
 1298 Doubtful cases were listed as UNKNOWNS. A further 26.6% of
the 1070 Good cases were listed as UNKNOWNS. The better the
quality the more likely to be UNKNOWNS.

Frankly it would appear to be straight balderdash that there are
no cases with sufficient information that were unexplainable,
and that the problem was poor quality.

I suppose one solution as to how you could make such an
extraordinary claim, backed by no data, is that you have only
looked at a few poor cases and have rushed to judgement by
extrapolation to a grandiose claim.


Stan Friedman