UFO UpDates
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   Sep

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Sep 2004

  Sep 1:

   Re: Moon Questions - Ledger - Don Ledger [14]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Ledger - Don Ledger [29]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark - Jerome Clark [119]
   Re: Humanoid Sighting Leaves Chilean Witnesses - Greg Boone [8]
   Re: Moon Questions - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [23]
   Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - King - Kyle King [20]
   Re: Moon Questions - King - Kyle King [57]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 35 - John Hayes [601]
   Re: Moon Questions - King - Kyle King [15]
   Re: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [14]
   Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo - Harrison - Larry Hatch [3]
   High School Student's UFO Video - Greg Boone [86]
   'Gobsmacked' UFO Skeptic Turned Believer - Greg Boone [18]
   Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - King - Kyle King [34]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Ledger - Don Ledger [23]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall - Richard Hall [19]
   UFO Review Issue 4 - Stuart Miller [23]
   Stanton Friedman Uploaded! - Stanton Friedman [26]
   Re: Moon Questions - King - Kyle King [10]
   Re: Zen & Sagan & The Art Of Scientific - David Chace [26]
   Re: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 35 - Trainor - John Hayes [31]

  Sep 2:

   Missouri 'UFO' Toy Balloon - Greg Boone [34]
   Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - Shell - Tim Shell [19]
   Re: Microbiologist Death Question - Boone - Greg Boone [6]
   Re: Moon Questions - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [16]
   Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Ledger - Don Ledger [28]
   Filers Files #37 - 2004 - George A. Filer [564]
   CCCRN News: Formation Report #10 - Calgary, Alberta - Paul Anderson
   [34]
   Re: 'Gobsmacked' UFO Skeptic Turned Believer - King - Kyle King [39]
   Re: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'? - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [48]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney - John Harney [22]
   Re: NIDS FT Report - Boone - Greg Boone [10]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney - John Harney [38]
   UFO Crash Retrieval Conference Hits Las Vegas Nov - Ryan S. Wood [159]
   SETI Signal From 1,000 Light Years Away - Greg Boone [19]
   Secrecy News -- 09/01/04 - Steven Aftergood [121]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark - Jerome Clark [13]
   Julian Hennessey Invisible Asset - Joe McGonagle [9]
   Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch - Terry W. Colvin [85]
   Possible SETI Success? - Terry W. Colvin [31]
   'Ley Lines'/Military Bases? - Patrick O'Boyle [13]
   SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To Date - William Wise [118]
   Re: UFO Review Issue 4 - Jones - Sean Jones [16]
   Astronomers Deny ET Signal Report - Chris Whitlock [60]
   Chilean Eyewitness Describes Encounter With - Scott Corrales [53]
   Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Alfred Lehmberg [44]
   A UFO Story Every Day? - Greg Boone [10]
   CNN Covers SETI Signal Story - Greg Boone [9]
   Re: Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch - Miller - Stuart Miller [10]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark - Jerome Clark [85]

  Sep 3:

   Re: Filers Files #37 - 2004 - Ledger - Don Ledger [6]
   Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Clark - Jerome Clark [19]
   Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Ledger - Don Ledger [13]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Ledger - Don Ledger [8]
   The Religion Of UFOs - UFO UpDates - Toronto [98]
   Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - King - Kyle King [32]
   Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To - Cathy Reason [15]
   Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - King - Kyle King [23]
   Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [97]
   'Black Triangle' Sightings On The Rise - Alfred Webre [148]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney - John Harney [32]
   Re: Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch - Hall - Richard Hall [6]
   NIDS FT Study Hits The News - Larry Hatch [12]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer - John Rimmer [14]
   Scientists To Map The Universe - Greg Boone [56]
   Re: CNN Covers SETI Signal Story - King - Kyle King [8]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King - Kyle King [19]
   Re: 'Black Triangle' Sightings On The Rise - Shell - Tim Shell [5]
   Spacecraft Seen in Panul Region Of Chile? - Scott Corrales [72]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [14]
   Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [8]
   Re: NIDS FT Study Hits The News - Bob Shell - Bob Shell [5]
   Raytheon Snags Contract For 'Moon To Mars' Mission - Greg Boone [41]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark - Jerome Clark [136]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark - Jerome Clark [11]
   Re: SETI Signal From 1,000 Light Years Away - - John Scheldroup [11]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Shell - Tim Shell [26]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark - Jerome Clark [7]
   HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings - - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   [470]
   Re: 'Black Triangle' Sightings On The Rise - - Nicholas Redfern [0]
   Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - King - Kyle King [7]
   Re: 'Black Triangle' Sightings On The Rise - King - Kyle King [15]
   Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To - Greg Boone [9]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [3]
   Re: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [12]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee
   [22]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee
   [38]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee
   [67]
   Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Rimmer - John Rimmer [15]
   Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To - Kyle King [32]
   Re: Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch - Miller - Stuart Miller [6]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall - Richard Hall [11]
   Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Hatch - Larry Hatch [10]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall - Richard Hall [53]

  Sep 4:

   Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [13]
   SETI False Alarm - William Bolt [22]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King - Kyle King [9]
   Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Clark - Jerome Clark [3]
   77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - Greg Boone [13]
   Using Anti-matter For Star Travel? - Greg Boone [8]
   NASA's Starship 2040 Exhibit - Greg Boone [10]
   Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To - Simon Hicks [5]
   Cattle Mutes - Ted Oliphant [27]
   Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To - Cathy Reason [7]
   Re: HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings - Larry Hatch [18]
   Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [66]
   Re: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [25]
   Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - Shell - Tim Shell [16]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall - Richard Hall [8]

  Sep 5:

   Re: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'? - Gross - Patrick Gross [5]
   Re: UFO UpDate: SETI False Alarm - King - Kyle King [8]
   Re: Cattle Mutes - Boone - Greg Boone [37]
   Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To - Kyle King [14]
   Re: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel? - King - Kyle King [12]
   Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - King - Kyle King [9]
   Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - Shough - Martin Shough [6]
   Re: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel? - Shough - Martin Shough [7]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer - John Rimmer [37]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer - John Rimmer [10]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer - John Rimmer [25]
   Our Twin Planet? - Terry W. Colvin [57]
   Hessdalen - Valley Of Enigmatic Lights - Terry W. Colvin [59]
   Evidence That Mars Is A Former Moon! - Terry W. Colvin [47]
   Farnam Cow Found Mutilated - Frank Warren [57]
   Re: SETI False Alarm - Groff - Terry Groff [4]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney - John Harney [32]
   Faded Discs - ETH: Dr. James E. McDonald - Wendy Connors [32]
   SDI #308 September 4th, 2004 - Alfred Lehmberg [56]

  Sep 6:

   Re: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [8]
   Re: Tonnies On 21st Century Radio - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [13]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark - Jerome Clark [107]
   Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - - Stanton Friedman [74]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark - Jerome Clark [34]
   Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - Gates - Robert Gates [16]
   Re: Cattle Mutes - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [26]
   ET Einstein & E-Mails - Colin Stevenson [21]
   Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - Hale - Roy Hale [17]
   Secret US Watch Post Overhauled - Frank Warren [100]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [27]
   What's New With John Ford? - Alfred Lehmberg [42]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark - Jerome Clark [6]

  Sep 7:

   Re: Secret US Watch Post Overhauled - Boone - Greg Boone [10]
   Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - King - Kyle King [30]
   Re: Cattle Mutes - Sparks - Brad Sparks [5]
   Re: Cattle Mutes - King - Kyle King [13]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Allan - Christopher Allan
   [30]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney - John Harney [11]
   Re: What's New With John Ford? - Freeman - Kelly Freeman [11]
   Re: Secret US Watch Post Overhauled - Sparks - Brad Sparks [253]
   Re: Cattle Mutes - Belzil - Fern Belzil [26]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Sparks - Brad Sparks [61]
   Re: Secret US Watch Post Overhauled - Gerstrom - Ole Gerstrom [6]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [23]
   Re: What's New With John Ford? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [12]
   Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Connors - Wendy Connors [18]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Alfred Lehmberg [4]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Stanton Friedman [12]
   Is There Anybody Out There? - Greg Boone [8]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Ledger - Don Ledger [6]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall - Richard Hall [18]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Gildas Bourdais [10]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark - Jerome Clark [23]

  Sep 8:

   Secrecy News -- 09/07/04 - Steven Aftergood [121]
   Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter - - Christopher Allan
   [14]
   CCCRN News: Formation Report #11 - Wadena Sask. - Paul Anderson [28]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Sparks - Brad Sparks [63]
   Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter - - Bob Shell [3]
   Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter - - Steven Kaeser [47]
   Re: Cattle Mutes - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [15]
   UFO Collection For Sale - Perry Petrakis [11]
   It's The Martians' Fault! - Greg Boone [49]
   The Good People You Meet In Ufology - Greg Boone [154]
   The Search For Livable Worlds - UFO UpDates - Toronto [56]
   NY Times On The SETI And Planet Hunting - Greg Boone [7]
   Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter - - Richard Hall [4]
   Filers Files #38 - 2004 - George A. Filer [568]
   Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter - - Jerome Clark [35]
   Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter - - Jerome Clark [25]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Allan - Christopher Allan
   [14]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Allan - Christopher Allan
   [10]
   A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - Capt. Alejandro Franz
   [50]
   Inside the Capitol Bodies Wreckage & Machinery - Stuart Miller [85]

  Sep 9:

   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 36 - John Hayes [437]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark - Jerome Clark [18]
   Did You Take The 'UFO Quiz'? - Greg Boone [8]
   Re: Cattle Mutes - King - Kyle King [38]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - - Greg Boone [12]
   In Plain Sight - Jan Aldrich [50]
   VHS Of Norwood Presentation Available - Kenny Young [29]
   Re: Did You Take The 'UFO Quiz'? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [6]

  Sep 10:

   CCCRN News: Latest On Matsqui, BC Formation - Paul Anderson [36]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - - Terry Groff [4]
   Re: Filers Files #37 - 2004 - Smith - Jim Smith [18]
   HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 09-09-04 - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   [419]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Allan - Christopher Allan
   [22]
   Coppola's Abduction Mini-Series: The 4400 - Victor Viggiani [70]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer - John Rimmer [24]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - - Bruce Maccabee [2]
   UFOs & Media Request - Larry Hatch [25]
   Re: Did You Take The 'UFO Quiz'? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [12]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Kaiser - Steven Kaeser [7]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark - Jerome Clark [46]

  Sep 11:

   Re: Coppola's Abduction Mini-Series: The 4400 - - Bob Shell [7]
   Secrecy News -- 09/10/04 - Steven Aftergood [182]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - - Stanton Friedman
   [4]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - - Joe McGonagle [34]
   Re: In Plain Sight - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [14]
   Re: Cattle Mutes - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [10]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Allan - Christopher Allan
   [29]
   New Resource For Whistle-Blowers - Larry W. Bryant [27]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer - John Rimmer [5]
   Mexican Air Force Video Transcript Un-Cut? - Capt. Alejandro Franz [20]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer - John Rimmer [36]
   "What The Bleep Do We Do Now?" Review - Greg Boone [13]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark - Jerome Clark [39]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [10]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark - Jerome Clark [24]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - - Capt. Alejandro
   Franz [28]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Sparks - Brad Sparks [58]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer - John Rimmer [30]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark - Jerome Clark [11]

  Sep 12:

   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Alfred Lehmberg [5]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Hall - Richard Hall [38]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks - Brad Sparks [208]
   Re: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 09-11-04 - Brian Vike - HBCC
   UFO [389]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer - John Rimmer [4]
   Re: Cattle Mutes - Stevenson - Colin Stevenson [7]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Allan - Christopher Allan
   [8]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Friedman - Stanton Friedman
   [86]
   Group Meets In Exeter To Discuss UFOs & Cultures - Greg Boone [10]
   "What The Bleep Do We Do Now?" Review - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [30]

  Sep 13:

   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark - Jerome Clark [10]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer - John Rimmer [31]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer - John Rimmer [5]
   Pre-Analysis Report Of Ed Gerhman's Crash Site - Wendy Connors [20]
   HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings - - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   [332]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Colvin - Terry W. Colvin
   [45]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Alfred Lehmberg [4]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Alfred Lehmberg [5]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Alfred Lehmberg [16]
   Re: Pre-Analysis Report Of Ed Gerhman's Crash Site - Alfred Lehmberg
   [5]
   Re: Cattle Mutes - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [2]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Bruce Maccabee [4]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Gildas Bourdais [17]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark - Jerome Clark [50]
   Re: Cattle Mutes - King - Kyle King [4]

  Sep 14:

   There's No Business Like UFO Business - UFO UpDates - Toronto [61]
   Secrecy News -- 09/13/04 - Steven Aftergood [91]
   Psychic Claims Aliens Control The Media - UFO UpDates - Toronto [25]
   Space Probes Feel Cosmic Tug Of Bizarre Forces - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [55]
   Groundbreaking Discovery In The Cosmos? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [101]
   Is Anybody Out There? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [172]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - - Capt. Alejandro
   Franz [27]
   Call for Papers: 2nd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval - Ryan S. Wood [30]
   CCCRN News: Tree Circles - Nahanni Butte, - Paul Anderson [38]
   Re: In Plain Sight - Guenther - Daniel Guenther [7]
   Re: In Plain Sight - Guenther - Daniel Guenther [8]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - - Alfred Lehmberg
   [24]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - - Stanton Friedman
   [7]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - - Alfred Lehmberg
   [25]

  Sep 15:

   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 37 - John Hayes [289]
   Re: Groundbreaking Discovery In The Cosmos? - - Frank Warren [34]
   Re: Psychic Claims Aliens Control The Media - Boone - Greg Boone [66]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks - Brad Sparks [22]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - - Frank Warren [15]
   SPI September London Lecture - Philip Mantle [76]
   Re: UFOs According To 'Wikipedia' - Boone - Greg Boone [9]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - King - Kyle King [31]
   Re: Pre-Analysis Report Of Ed Gerhman's Crash Site - Richard Hall [4]
   HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings - Brian Vike - HBCC UFO
   [398]
   Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Capt. Alejandro Franz [18]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - - Capt. Alejandro
   Franz [4]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer - John Rimmer [14]
   NASA Transfers X-37 To Unidentified US Agency - Stuart Miller [71]
   Super-Earths: The Next Step In Planet Finding - Stuart Miller [176]
   Playboy' Not Alienating For E.T.-Loving Women - Stuart Miller [22]
   Enceladus Straight Lines? - Colin Stevenson [7]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - - Alfred Lehmberg
   [14]
   Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [12]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Alfred Lehmberg [18]
   Here Comes Hurricane Ivan - Alfred Lehmberg [5]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark - Jerome Clark [11]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark - Jerome Clark [14]
   Re: UFOs According To 'Wikipedia' - King - Kyle King [19]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Miller - Stuart Miller [20]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Gildas Bourdais [15]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Hall - Richard Hall [19]
   Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Boone - Greg Boone [31]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks - Brad Sparks [6]
   Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - - Jim Deardorff [14]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth - Sparks - Brad Sparks [11]
   Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - King - Kyle King [25]

  Sep 16:

   Strange Photos From Uberaba Brazil - Scott Corrales [32]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - - Frank Warren [20]
   That's Not A UFO It's An Iridium Flare - UFO UpDates - Toronto [31]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer - John Rimmer [7]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark - Jerome Clark [5]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer - John Rimmer [33]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer - John Rimmer [23]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Hall - Richard Hall [6]
   Some Co-Incidence - Ray Dickenson [38]
   Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Velez - John Velez [28]
   Re: Super-Earths: The Next Step In Planet Finding - John Scheldroup
   [19]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks - Brad Sparks [21]
   Re: Enceladus Straight Lines? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [7]
   Filers Files #39 - 2004 - George A. Filer [562]
   Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Olmos - Vicente-Juan
   Ballester Olmos [9]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark - Jerome Clark [73]

  Sep 17:

   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Gildas Bourdais [19]
   Magonia - The Truth Is There [Was: New Mexico - Stuart Miller [90]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks - Brad Sparks [2]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark - Jerome Clark [14]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - - Terry Groff [4]
   Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words - - Terry Groff [7]
   LUFOS UFO Meeting October 15th 2004 - Roy Hale [22]
   Forward From Jaime Maussan - John Velez [21]
   UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - Sheryl Gottschall [270]
   New Orb Images - Barry Taylor [19]
   BBC - Bush & Kerry Battle Over Science - Diana Cammack [47]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Allan - Christopher Allan
   [15]
   Fireball Crashes Behind Argentine Glacier - Scott Corrales [39]
   Secrecy News -- 09/17/04 - Steven Aftergood [172]
   Re: New Orb Images - King - Kyle King [33]
   Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Rudiak - David Rudiak [25]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rudiak - David Rudiak [30]
   Re: New Orb Images - Shell - Tim Shell [8]
   Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting [was New Mexico - Jerome Clark [170]
   Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King - Kyle King [38]

  Sep 18:

   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [23]
   Re: HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings - Brian Vike - HBCC
   UFO [271]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Harney - John Harney [20]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Rimmer - John Rimmer [36]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Chace - David Chace [59]
   Re: New Orb Images - White - Eleanor White [5]
   Re: New Orb Images - Shell - Bob Shell [3]
   Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Clark - Jerome Clark [13]
   Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Smith - James Smith [17]
   Conferences Around Australia - Diane Harrison [57]
   Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King - Kyle King [42]
   Re: New Orb Images - Taylor - Barry Taylor [15]
   Re: New Orb Images - Taylor - Barry Taylor [21]
   Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [5]
   Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee
   [19]
   Re: Appeal Of Denial of FOIA Request For - Larry W. Bryant [56]
   Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - Hatch - Larry Hatch [7]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Gildas Bourdais [8]
   Bexley's New UFO Sighting - Mo Elnadi [29]
   Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Allan - Christopher Allan [56]
   Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Hall - Richard Hall [9]
   Re: New Orb Images - King - Kyle King [40]
   Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee
   [9]
   Re: New Orb Images - Shell - Kyle King [36]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Miller - Stuart Miller [48]
   Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - Hall - Richard Hall [9]
   Re: New Orb Images - King - Kyle King [19]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Miller - Stuart Miller [17]
   Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Harney - John Harney [18]
   Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Groff - Terry Groff [7]
   Re: New Orb Images - King - Kyle King [29]
   Re: New Orb Images - King - Kyle King [14]
   Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Clark - Jerome Clark [49]
   Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Clark - Jerome Clark [2]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Sandow - Greg Sandow [42]

  Sep 19:

   Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - - Jim Deardorff [10]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks - Brad Sparks [42]
   Re: New Orb Images - White - Eleanor White [5]
   Re: New Orb Images - White - Eleanor White [35]
   Re: New Orb Images - Hebert - Amy Hebert [18]
   Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - - Sheryl Gottschall [8]
   UFOs + ECHELON - Terry W. Colvin [37]
   Re: New Orb Images - Taylor - Barry Taylor [12]
   Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Hatch - Larry Hatch [8]
   Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee
   [5]
   Re: New Orb Images - Taylor - Barry Taylor [23]
   Re: New Orb Images - Taylor - Barry Taylor [24]
   Halifax Conference Tackles UFOs - UFO UpDates - Toronto [24]
   Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King - Kyle King [13]

  Sep 20:

   Re: Some Co-Incidence - Freeman - Kelly Freeman [19]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Gildas Bourdais [14]
   Re: Halifax Conference Tackles UFOs - King - Kyle King [13]
   Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Allan - Christopher Allan [21]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Harney - John Harney [13]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Harney - John Harney [11]
   Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Pope - Nick Pope [10]
   Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee
   [13]
   Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [3]
   Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [8]
   Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - - Sheryl Gottschall [8]
   Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Sparks - Brad Sparks [219]
   Re: Halifax Conference Tackles UFOs - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [13]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - - Stanton Friedman [18]
   Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Colvin - Terry W. Colvin [6]
   Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Ledger - Don Ledger [6]
   Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King - Kyle King [42]
   Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [7]
   Re: UFOs + ECHELON - King - Kyle King [22]
   Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Clark - Jerome Clark [3]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Clark - Jerome Clark [14]
   Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Ledger - Don Ledger [19]
   Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [12]
   Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [15]

  Sep 21:

   Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [10]
   Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Ledger - Don Ledger [14]
   Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Hall - Richard Hall [16]
   Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Hicks - Simon Hicks [5]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Miller - Stuart Miller [29]
   UFOs Bush And CBS News - Greg Boone [35]
   Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks - Brad Sparks [23]
   Close Encounter In Alaska - Chris Rutkowski [62]
   Re: Some Co-Incidence - Dickenson - Ray Dickenson [34]
   Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Praestegaard - Soren Praestegaard [7]
   Re: New Orb Images - Hebert - Amy Hebert [10]
   HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings - Bran Vike - HBCC UFO
   [302]
   Five New Canadian Sighting Reports - Chris Rutkowski [42]
   Astronomer UFO Sightings [Was: UFOs + ECHELON] - Ray Dickenson [8]
   Re: New Orb Images - Shell - Tim Shell [9]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Hall - Richard Hall [6]
   Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - King - Kyle King [9]
   Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King - Kyle King [21]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - King - Kyle King [22]
   Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - - Sheryl Gottschall [49]
   Docugate - Bruce Maccabee [9]
   Great UFO/ET And Earth Mysteries Congress - Tom Benson [20]
   Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [7]
   Re: Fireball Crashes Behind Argentine Glacier - - Robert Gates [19]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Reason - Cathy Reason [49]
   Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - White - Eleanor White [26]
   Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [18]
   Re: New Orb Images - King - Kyle King [27]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [6]
   Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Rutkowski - Chris Rutkowski [28]
   Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Ledger - Don Ledger [5]
   Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [11]
   Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Gates - Robert Gates [87]
   Re: Some Co-Incidence - Holman - Brett Holman [48]
   CCCRN News: Tree Circles Iin Northwest Territories - Paul Anderson [54]
   Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Boone - Greg Boone [26]
   Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King - Kyle King [65]
   Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - King - Kyle King [18]
   Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Holman - Brett Holman [48]
   Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Ledger - Don Ledger [10]
   Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Warren - Frank Warren [30]
   Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Caput - Scott Caput [5]

  Sep 22:

   Shattered Trees Found At Argentine Impact Area - Scott Corrales [67]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [21]
   Sheaffer Superciliously Silly - UFO UpDates - Toronto [217]
   Robert Sheaffer - Smirks & Sneers From Skeptical - Alfred Lehmberg
   [403]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 38 - John Hayes [264]
   Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [7]
   Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Scheldroup - John Scheldroup [86]
   Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Ledger - Don Ledger [5]
   Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [6]
   Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [10]
   Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - King - Kyle King [6]
   Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Friedman - Stanton Friedman [25]
   Re: New Orb Images - Taylor - Barry Taylor [21]
   Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - White - Eleanor White [4]
   Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Colvin - Terry W. Colvin [28]
   Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Hatch - Larry Hatch [10]
   Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Hatch - Larry Hatch [18]
   What's Going On in Ushuaia Argentina? - Scott Corrales [44]
   Part Of Forest Destroyed By Mysterious 'Fireballs' - Scott Corrales
   [36]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [32]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Ledger - Don Ledger [8]
   Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - Mike Christman [149]
   Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Ledger - Don Ledger [9]
   Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Rukowski - Chris Rutkowski [17]
   Re: New Orb Images - King - Kyle King [27]
   Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Ledger - Don Ledger [10]
   Re: New Orb Images - King - Kyle King [13]
   Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - - Chris Rutkowski
   [21]

  Sep 23:

   Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - Ryan S. Wood [147]
   More On The Ushuaia Argentina 'Fireball' - Scott Corrales [93]
   Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - - Greg Boone [17]
   Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - - Brad Sparks [13]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Hall - Richard Hall [22]
   Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - - Greg Boone [8]
   Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Boone - Greg Boone [17]
   PRG Update - September 22, 2004 - Stephen G. Bassett [156]
   Re: New Orb Images - King - Kyle King [18]
   Rolling, Rolling, Rolling, Keep Them Rovers Rolling - Greg Boone [13]
   Hopkins' Techniques [was: Magonia - The Truth Is - Terry Groff [13]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Harney - John Harney [9]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Harney - John Harney [31]
   Re: Shattered Trees Found At Argentine Impact Area - Martin Shough [9]
   Re: Hopkins' Techniques [was: Magonia - The Truth - John Harney [20]
   Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Hatch - Larry Hatch [15]
   Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [38]
   Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - - Bruce Maccabee
   [10]
   Re: Sheaffer Superciliously Silly - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [23]
   Dazed & Amused - Terry W. Colvin [75]
   Science Fiction? Not Any More - Terry W. Colvin [94]
   Captain Kirk Invades Iowa! - Terry W. Colvin [23]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique [was: Magonia - The Truth - Joe McGonagle [9]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique [was: Magonia - The Truth - Joe McGonagle [8]
   Re: New Orb Images - Hebert - Amy Hebert [9]
   Re: New Orb Images - Hebert - Amy Hebert [9]
   Strange Reptile Causes Terror In Argentina - Scott Corrales [45]
   Secrecy News -- 09/23/04 - Steven Aftergood [145]
   UFO in Santa Fe Argentina? - Scott Corrales [24]
   SPI Business 22nd September 2004 - Philip Mantle
   <philip@mantle8353.fsworld.co.uk [68]
   Re: Some Co-Incidence - Holman - Brett Holman [42]
   Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [9]
   Re: Hopkins' Techniques [was: Magonia - The Truth - Steven Kaeser [17]
   Magonia Supplement 52 - John Harney [5]
   Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - King - Kyle King [32]
   Re: PRG Update - September 22, 2004 - King - Kyle King [17]
   Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Rutkowski - Chris Rutkowski [3]
   Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - - Stanton Friedman
   [22]

  Sep 24:

   Re: New Orb Images - Shell - Bob Shell [5]
   Re: New Orb Images - Shell - Bob Shell [18]
   Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [1]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Reason - Cathy Reason [64]
   Re: New Orb Images - King - Kyle King [54]
   Re: Hopkins' Techniques - King - Kyle King [4]
   Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - - David Rudiak [43]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Hall - Richard Hall [8]
   Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - - Greg Boone [21]
   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - King - Kyle King [36]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [5]
   Re: SPI Business 22nd September 2004 - Hall - Richard Hall [5]
   Re: Hopkins' Techniques - Sandow - Greg Sandow [44]
   UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked - Terry Groff [139]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Ledger - Don Ledger [24]
   'Kidnapped By UFOs?' NOVA 1997 Transcript - UFO UpDates - Toronto [955]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Chace - David Chace [14]
   Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - - Alfred Lehmberg
   [32]

  Sep 25:

   Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked? - - Ray Dickenson [20]
   Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked - Boone - Greg Boone [23]
   Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [11]
   Budd Hopkins' UFO Seminar Announcement - October 9 - The Intruders
   Foundation [80]
   Greetings From PRI - Amy Allen [20]
   Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [72]
   Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - - Brad Sparks [6]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [145]
   Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - - David Rudiak [18]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Christopher Allan
   [16]
   Shades Of Close Encounters - Terry W. Colvin [9]
   Re: New Orb Images - Taylor - Barry Taylor [42]
   Re: SPI Business 22nd September 2004 - Harney - John Harney [6]
   South Dakota Tech Hosts UFO Lecture - Frank Warren [35]
   Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Hatch - Larry Hatch [45]
   Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - - Alfred Lehmberg
   [12]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Reason - Cathy Reason [12]
   Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - - Alfred Lehmberg
   [11]

  Sep 26:

   Rutan Ready To Realise Vision - UFO UpDates - Toronto [114]
   Re: South Dakota Tech Hosts UFO Lecture - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [10]
   Re: Magonia Supplement 52 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [5]
   Blimp-Like Object - Alfred Lehmberg [5]
   Re: Rolling, Rolling, Rolling, Keep Them Rovers - Colin Stevenson [10]
   Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread - Xxx Xxx [53]
   Re: 'Kidnapped By UFOs?' NOVA 1997 Transcript - - Greg Boone [57]
   Hopkins' 1996 NOVA Pre-Airing Comments - UFO UpDates - Toronto [353]
   NOVA's Attitude Toward UFOs - UFO UpDates - Toronto [5]
   Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked - Sparks - Brad Sparks [25]
   Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked - - Gary Matteson [5]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Sandow - Greg Sandow [92]
   Mars Water Vvapour And Methane Concentrations - Joe McGonagle [13]
   Student Writes About Science & The Paranormal - Greg Boone [99]
   Rendlesham (Dis)Solved - Terry W. Colvin [46]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Bruce Maccabee
   [40]
   Re: New Orb Images - King - Kyle King [38]
   Re: New Orb Images - King - Kyle King [56]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - King - Kyle King [29]
   Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - - Larry Hatch [14]
   Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Koch - Joachim Koch [22]

  Sep 27:

   Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved - Colvin - Terry W. Colvin [20]
   Re: Magonia Supplement 52 - Harney - John Harney [5]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Brad Sparks [30]
   Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread - Sparks - Brad Sparks [8]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [34]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Ledger - Don Ledger [5]
   Flying Saucers And Four Guys Named George - Wendy Connors [29]
   Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [14]
   CI: New Posts - Mac Tonnies [16]
   Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Chace - David Chace [29]
   Re: Magonia Supplement 52 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [3]
   Fostoria UFO Sightings? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [33]
   Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [31]
   Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest Argentina - Scott Corrales
   [33]
   Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - Joel Carpenter [4]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - King - Kyle King [14]

  Sep 28:

   Re: New Orb Images - King - Kyle King [27]
   29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Vicente-Juan Ballester
   Olmos [16]
   Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread - Ledger - Don Ledger [7]
   Secrecy News -- 09/27/04 - Steven Aftergood [79]
   Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - Ledger - Don Ledger [9]
   Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [4]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Hale - Roy Hale [4]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Ledger - Don Ledger [19]
   Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved - Hale - Roy Hale [22]
   Re: Blimp-Like Object - Warren - Frank Warren [4]
   CCCRN News: Formation Report #13 - Humboldt, - Paul Anderson [25]
   Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - - David Rudiak [10]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Reason - Cathy Reason [29]
   Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread - Hall - Richard Hall [36]
   Re: rritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread - - Xxx Xxx [9]
   Dr. John Mack Succumbs To Accident Injuries? - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [12]
   Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident - - David Rudiak [45]
   Re: endlesham (Dis)Solved - Hall - Richard Hall [12]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Bruce Maccabee
   [20]
   An Interesting Article On Photo Manipulation - Steven Kaeser [5]
   UFO Mockumentary To Air - Greg Boone [11]
   Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - King - Kyle King [15]
   Re: Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest - Paul Anderson [39]
   Dr. John Mack Killed By Drunk Driver - UFO UpDates - Toronto [9]
   Passing Of Dr John Mack - John E Mack Institute [104]
   Re: Dr. John Mack Killed By Drunk Driver - Boone - Greg Boone [14]
   Re: Dr. John Mack Killed By Drunk Driver - Harrison - Diane Harrison
   [21]
   Re: Dr. John Mack Killed By Drunk Driver - Velez - John Velez [3]
   Dr. John Mack - Mark Haywood [6]
   John Mack - Chris Burns [3]
   Dr. John Mack - Lavinia Pallotta [10]
   Professor John Mack - Ronald Freeman <i.ron1@mac.com [20]
   John Mack - A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO [9]
   Dr. John Mack - Wendy Connors [3]
   Professor John Mack - Michael Christol [6]

  Sep 29:

   Dr. John Mack - Royce J. Myers III [5]
   On Dr. John Mack - Larry Landsman [10]
   Passing Of Dr John Mack - Bruce Maccabee [28]
   John Mack's Transpersonal Journey Continues - Peter Khoury [229]
   Passing Of Dr John Mack - Stanton T. Friedman [13]
   John Mack Pultizer Winner Dies - UFO UpDates - Toronto [23]
   Dr John Mack & Physical Evidence - David Chace [66]
   Professor John Mack - Bill Weber [3]
   John Mack - Kyle King [9]
   Dr. John Mack - Mac Tonnies [8]
   John Mack - Paul Anderson [5]
   Dr. John Mack - Gary Mattteson [7]
   Dr John Mack - Don Ecker [8]
   Dr John Mack - Philip Mantle [7]
   Harvard Professor Dr. John Mack - ronald freeman [5]
   Dr. John Mack Will Be Missed - Larry Cekander [16]
   Passing Of Dr John Mack - Roy Hale [4]
   Dr. John Mack - Joachim Koch [12]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [12]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Santiago Yturria
   [28]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - King - Kyle King [16]
   Re: Blimp-Like Object - King - Kyle King [8]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - King - Kyle King [5]
   UFOs Over Monte Hermoso Argentina - Scott Corrales [27]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Velez - John Velez [28]
   Argentine Police & Locals Chase "Strange Creature" - Scott Corrales
   [34]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Kyle King [29]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 39 - John Hayes [324]
   Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents - - Stanton Friedman
   [45]
   Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread - - Stanton Friedman [7]
   Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - Ledger - Don Ledger [12]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - King - Kyle King [16]
   Who Are the UFO Abductees & Ritual Abuse Survivors? - Terry W. Colvin
   [25]
   Secrecy News -- 09/28/04 - Steven Aftergood [113]

  Sep 30:

   Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked - Warren - Frank Warren [240]
   Re: Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest - Bruce Maccabee [18]
   Re: Hopkins' Technique - Chace - David Chace [33]
   Take-Me-To-Your-Leader Lit - Terry Groff [116]
   PBS Poll: Do Aliens Really Exist? - Alfred Lehmberg [20]
   A Wake Up Call Perhaps? - Greg Boone [57]
   Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956 - Martin Shough [488]
   Filer's Files #41 � 2004 - George A. Filer [575]
   Dr. John Mack - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [5]
   Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - King - Kyle King [20]
   PRG Update - October 1, 2004 - Stephen G. Bassett [119]
   Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved - Colvin - Terry W. Colvin [53]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Royce J. Myers III
   [45]
   Memories Of John Mack - Mike Bird - MUFON Canada [37]
   Re: A Wake Up Call Perhaps? - Gottschall - Sheryl Gottschall [13]
   Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification - Greg Boone [9]
   Tribute To Dr John Mack - Roy Hale [12]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 1

                         Re: Moon Questions - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 01:34:08 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 06:40:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Ledger


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:10:32 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 13:56:35 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

<snip>

>>A shameful waste of money and resources is what it it was/is,
>>Kyle. But it wasn't my buck so I can't complain.

>If by "shameful" you mean that the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo
>program never fed the hungry, or clothed the naked, I must
>agree. Of course, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked
>still seems to be a very low priority for this government, yet
>we stopped sending men to the moon long ago. If by waste of
>money and resources you mean that despite the high cost it
>failed to advance our understanding of manned space flight, or
>failed to produce any seriously useful information, I would
>disagree. Your second statement appears to contradict your
>first, unless you mean that I should ignore your first.

Heck, no, Kyle.

You have me wrong. By shameful waste I refer to the lost
opportunity to return to the Moon. The momentum was lost. I hung
on every mission back then, and was profoundly disappointed when
the Moon was abandoned. As a matter of fact I held with "baa
humbug" when the "money better spent on social housing programs"
and "handing out money to those who chose not to work"
 arguments were trotted out,  Scrooge that I am.

The prosperity that the space race brought to the western
cultures is incalculable.

I wanted more, not an end.

Hope this eases you mind.

Don Ledger










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 1

              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 02:18:13 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 06:44:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Ledger


>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:37:35 -0700
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:12:33 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>>Those who are interested must use their judgement to assess how
>>>accurate they think Arnold's report might have been.

>>The fact is John, there would have been no one else that Arnold
>>could have had as a passenger in his Callair that day, who could
>>have been better qualified to say what Arnold encountered.
>>Arnold was in his element and was the expert witness. Who else
>>would you suggest?

>It shouldn't be forgotten that there was a second witness to
the "Arnold" sighting, namely the prospector, Fred Johnson of
Portland. He viewed one of the UFOs through his prospector's
telescope for quite a few seconds, and got a closer view than
Arnold. After he wrote his letter to the Air Foce about it, he
was interviewed by the FBI, who in their letter described him as
"a very reliable individual."

Ah yes Jim,

I have the documents somewhere as a matter of fact. But the
point I was making-or at least endeavoring to do so, and
probably very poorly at that, was that this was from Arnold's
point of view and within his frame of references. He was
observing these as a pilot with whatever experience and
knowledge that could bring to the table. I believe that this is
why that case remains solid to this day. Arnold eliminated much
of the chaff right from the git go.

At any rate what John Harney refers to as Sacred UFO Mysteries
or "classic UFO cases" is neither here nor there. It's an
attempt, only, to lessen the validity of a case that hasn't yet
been solved. If you can't debunk it, ridicule it. Add to the
giggle factor. And incidentally, pelicans were never a reasonable
explanation to be considered - proffered by a rank amateur
to begin with.

But you bring up a good point, now that you mention it Jim.
Ain't it strange that a pilot reports these objects and then it
is independently verified by a witness on the ground. Two
witnesses, each of whom had no knowledge of the other's presence
or report.


Don Ledger








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 1

               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:28:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 08:27:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:58:00 +0100
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:04:03 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:52:46 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind


Sigh, John,

>>That is a whole other argument - albeit a dubious one; Arnold's
>>was not a single-witness sighting - from the one you were
>>advancing. In the original one, we were to believe that the
>>sighting was potentially explainable even by the most far-
>>fetched hypotheses (using the word very loosely here; we're
>>really talking frantic wing-flapping, in this instance in the
>>most literal sense).

>There were other reports of UFOs in the same general area for
>that day, but there is no good reason to believe that they were
>the same things that were seen by Arnold.

Fred M. Johnson independently saw the same objects, from all
available evidence. The Air Force found his tesimony credible
and deemed his sighting genuine and unexplained.

>You only say hypotheses are far fetched if they would help to
>solve the mystery. As I have said, the validity or otherwise of
>the various hypotheses depends to a great extent on how accurate
>Arnold's recollections of his sighting were.

Interesting how time validated the accuracy of the Arnold
sighting, which seemed so exotic and out of the ordinary at the
time. A comparable sighting today would be barely noted, except
perhaps by a researcher specializing in pilot reports.

>>Now, however, you're shifting ground and acting more like the
>>guy who goes on with his life without heeding Claim X, thus (by
>>Marcello Truzzi's formulation) the guy with nothing to prove.
>>But of course until I challenged you, you were making claims
>>about the case - as you did as well in the Magonia review of my
>>Strange Skies book, where you chided me for failing to accept
>>assorted pelicanist versions of sightings, prominently
>including Arnold's.

>I don't expect you or anyone else to accept any particular
>explanations, it's just that I think it is irrational to dismiss
>them without serious consideration just because they don't
>appeal to you.

This is, of course, an argument that partakes of silliness,
self-serving, and irrelevance in equal measure. It is not that
efforts to assign prosaic explanations are unacceptable (for
God's sake, John, re-read - or maybe read for the first
time - my book Strange Skies, which you reviewed in Magonia 85,
where prosaic explanations, but good and convincing ones this
time, are applied to some other famous Arnold-era sightings).
This is a particularly tiresome pelicanist rhetoric technique,
and I would urge you to abandon it forthwith except that without
it you'd be forced into silence, and none of us wants that.

What is objectionable, as I'm sure every reader of this thread
grasps, is the pelicanists' insistence on allegedly prosaic
explanations - though it's debatable whether supersonic pelicans
comprise a prosaic explanation - when they manifestly aren't
functional. The pelicanist obsession with Arnold, one infers,
has to do with the "implicit assumption ... that if this seminal
report falls to mundane accounting, all that follows is
similarly susceptible," as I've written on my chapter on Arnold
in Strange Skies. In this sense Arnold's now-rather-ordinary
sighting represents a significant threat to the fragile
theoretical framework of pelicanism.

In order not to bore readers with the inevitable response to the
above, let me make the obvious clear enough even to the John
Harneys of the world: A convincing, well-argued, serious
counterinterpretation of Arnold's sighting is not only
acceptable but welcome. That is not the issue. The issue is the
desperate clinging to absurd or otherwise unworkable hypotheses,
for no other purpose than to render the sighting unanomalous, by
UFOphobes. This approach is no more serious than that of the
credophiles who demand that every sighting be of a major
anomaly, even when good evidence (or even common sense) suggests
otherwise. The fundamental frivolity of John Harney's position
is discussed at the end of this posting.

>>It is also a bizarre claim to be made by a Magonian. You have
>>spent years making negative claims about UFO reports and
>>witnesses. Your sudden retreat into agnosticism-bordering-on-
>>indifference is, shall we say, surprising. Or maybe not, since
>>convenience and shifting ground play such a notable role in
>>pelicanist polemic.

>I have not changed my views at all; I have always adopted a
>logical and consistent approach to the subject, though I must
>admit that in the early years I was sometimes a little too
>credulous.

"Logical"? "Consistent"? How about "orthodoxy-affirming at any
cost"? About that, anyway, you have been consistent. "Credulous"
I take to mean what other people would judge mere open-
mindedness, a posture of which no one will hold you guilty
anymore. So you can relax, John. Nobody thinks your head holds
any heretical thoughts.

>>>What is being claimed - by some people - in this case is that
>>>Arnold actually saw some aircraft traveling at supersonic speed
>>>at a time when no such craft existed anywhere on Earth. I think
>>>most people would regard that as an extraordinary claim.

>>Huh? UFO reports are certainly interesting, but they were made
>>before Arnold's sighting, and millions have been made since. Far
>>from being extraordinary, they are not even that unusual
>>anymore. "Extraordinary" is simply an adjective you're using so
>>that you can, I take it, dismiss the report because poor Ken
>>Arnold was unable to produce wreckage, machinery, or bodies.

>I have already explained that Arnold's report was extraordinary
>because he estimated that the objects were travelling at
>supersonic speeds. As you will probably agree that they were not
>meteors, then such a sighting can reasonably be described as
>extraordinary. It's really quite simple and logical, so I don't
>know why you are making it seem so difficult.

Sightings of fast-moving, structured-looking phenomena that do
not appear to be earthly aircraft are far from extraordinary.
They are quite ordinary in human experience and comprise a
significant number of the totality of UFO reports. What's so
difficult about conceding that rather obvious point?

>>Certain theories (such as Klass's superplasma, Meade Layne's
>>etheric entities, Easton's supersonic pelicans) may arguably be
>>termed extraordinary, but UFO sightings themselves hardly fit
>>that definition. Whatever UFOs may or may not be, they are an
>>ordinary enough phenomenon of general human experience.

>The sightings are generally not extraordinary, but the claims
>made about them by many ufologists certainly are.

Not only by ufologists, but by pelicanists and other extremists.
Somehow, though, the latter psychosocial response to the
phenomenon manages not to attract the attention or interest of
self-described psychosociologists. Strange, that. Of course it
is always painful to have to subject one's own favored beliefs
to skeptical scrutiny.

>>Ah, the sudden, convenient conversion to agnosticism, where one
>>idea (as long as it does not involve a genuine anomaly) is as
>>good as another.

>What is a "genuine anomaly"? Could it be just a report for which
>there is insufficient or inaccurate information, or which has
>not been properly investigated? Please note that I have never
>stated, or implied, that one idea "is as good as another". You
>are making it up again.

Nope. As Allen Hynek has said, UFOs by definition must be cases
that are unsolved only after proper investigation.  That
describes many sightings in the UFO literature and in official
files. Unlike you, apparently, I've read them. I used many of
these primary documents in compiling the case studies in my
encyclopedia. Any knowledgeable student, from which category I
seem to excluding you, can name any number off the top of his or
her head. I remember with particular pleasure, by the way,
pulling bulky files out of the CUFOS archives. The most
compelling unexplained cases were investigated not once but
several times by different researchers, sometimes both civilian
and official. The information they compiled was most impressive,
and the only desperating lunging I observed was by Grudge and
Blue Book officers who had not objection to premature
conclusions based on insufficient information as long as they
favored prosaic explanations. In that way they were good
pelicanists.

I must say it is depressing, though I admit hardly surprising,
to find that pelicanists even in 2004 are reduced to the
hoariest and most dim- witted of cliches: that UFOs exist only
because people haven't investigated them or uncovered the proper
information.  Does being a pelicanist mean you don't have to
heed demonstrable contrary facts and evidence anymore? But then,
since UFOs don't exist, why bother with inconvenient detail?

>This phrase "true anomaly" might sell books and is no doubt
>useful on the UFO lecture circuit, but it doesn't actually mean
>anything.

Yet another dreary cliche: "sell books." As we all know, UFO
books sell like hot cakes, at least in the lurid imaginations of
pelicanists if not in prosaic market reality. In the same way,
"true anomaly" on the cover of a book guarantees multiple
printings and fat royalty checks. Great argument, John.

>Of course I don't believe that you think all UFO reports are
>"true anomalies" (whatever they might be), but I do get the
>impression that you consider certain "classic" cases to belong
>to the canon of Sacred UFO Mysteries, which must not be doubted
>or subjected to critical examination. I haven't found any cases
>which seem inexplicable, except those for which the information
>is insufficient or unreliable. There have also been some very
>intriguing hoaxes and I find it amusing that so many ufologists
>are in denial about these stories being false, even when the
>evidence is compelling.

Ah, the many miles the pelicanist will fly not to have to
advance a rational argument. Now we learn that I regard "certain
'classic' cases [as belonging] to the canon of Sacred UFO
Mysteries, which must not be doubted or subjected to critical
examination." Except, of course, for the "classic" cases I have
subjected to critical examination, such as Mantell, Gorman,
Kinross, Alex Hamilton, and others, and have found wanting. Note
also the dreary, lazy hint that UFOs are "sacred" and thus an
object of religious veneration to those who hold a different
view of them from the pelicanist's. Not only is this a stupid
argument, it's such a hackneyed one that one wonders if John
Harney is secretly shriveling in embarrassment.

John informs us, in all due ponderous, that he "hasn't found any
cases which seem inexplicable, except those for which the
information is insufficient or unreliable." Lack of sufficient,
reliable information is not a problem in well-investigated,
well- documented cases, but lack of rational argumentation in
pelicanist discourse, where insufficient or unreliable
information (not to mention freewheeling speculation) seems
always at the core (why let evidence get in the way of
guesswork?), is. As we see demonstrated yet again.

Besides the dreary cliche - that reports remain unsolved
because UFOs don't exist and therefore more information, never
mind the mass of same that already exists, would bring the pesky
heresy to ground - John has nothing but a tautology to offer
us, to wit:

Why are there unsolved UFO reports? Because there is
insufficient or unreliable information. How do we know the
information is insufficient or unreliable? Because there are
unsolved UFO reports.

Why am I not a pelicanist? Let me count the reasons....


Jerry Clark









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   Sep > Sep 1

               Re: Humanoid Sighting Leaves Chilean Witnesses

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:02:18 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 08:28:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Humanoid Sighting Leaves Chilean Witnesses


>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:02:59 -0400
>Subject: Humanoid Sighting Leaves Chilean Witnesses Speechless

>Source: INFOBAE.COM
>Date: Monday, August 30, 2004

>Incredible Humanoid Sighting Leaves Witnesses Speechless

>http://www.infobae.com/notas/nota.php?Idx=136324&IdxSeccion=100

>Mysterious creatures were seen by numerous witnesses in an area
>near the city of Coquimbo, Chile. According to their reports,
>they resemble small humans that float through the air without
>making a sound.

We have got to get the U.N. to send a care package of digital
cameras to the people of S. America.

Especially with 'zoom' features.

These amazing sightings of humanoids and chupacabras and
'kangaroo dinosaurs' are just to much to bear without photos or
videos.


Best,

Greg








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                        Re: Moon Questions - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:04:00 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 08:36:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Balaskas


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:42:34 -0500
>Subject: Moon Questions

<snip>

>Something has been nagging me, and I wondered if this might not
>be a suitable place to seek an answer. Perhaps better suited for
>an astronomy list, but as I am not a subscriber to one.

>The moon always has the same side facing earth. The moon is
>often theorized to be a part of the Earth which broke off by
>some prehistoric cosmic event.

<snip>

Greetings Kyle!

Below is an excerpt of an e-mail I sent to Jeffrey Wilson (of
crop circle fame) and others in June of last year about his
father's books. For reasons that are too many to mention here,
the case that our Moon is indeed an artifical structure in orbit
about the Earth has not been ruled out. If that August full Moon
that we saw on TV in the night sky during the closing ceremonies
of the Olympics in Athens (where couples gather at the Acropolis
every year to spend a special moment together under its romantic
bright light) is indeed a massive UFO, which by definition it
is, it will never again have the same poetic mystique!

---

Of the many popular magazine articles and books written about
our "spaceship" Moon, I consider Don Wilson's two books 'Our
Mysterious Spaceship Moon', (Dell, 1975) and 'Secrets of Our
Spaceship Moon', (Dell, 1979) to be the among best researched
and the ones which provide the most compelling evidence that
Earth's natural satellite is a giant ET craft.

It is said the the best way to hide something is to place it out
in the open. If we really want to see a solution to this UFO
mystery in our lifetime, we must return to the Moon.


Nick Balaskas








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                    Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:11:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:54:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - King


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 14:22:14 -0300
>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:32:21 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

>>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>>To:  ufoupdates.nul,  ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 23:53:07 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

><snip>

>>If the comet or meteor was vaporized in the explosion, by
>>definition the evidence of the comet or meteor is now "thin air"
>>thin air, which would presumably have dissipated by now. I don't
>>think there's much hope of "proving" that it was a comet or
>>meteor. While it may be comforting for some to have a non-ET
>>related explanation, that comfort should not be taken as proof
>>of its validity, any more than taking comfort in God's eternal
>>love should constitute proof of its validity. I must allow
>>though that either may very well be valid. In my reality,
>>neither of those give me much comfort, so I look elsewhere.
>>Before I read any scientific information about Tunguska, I
>>thought that it must have been something anomalous. An
>>anachronistic nuke, a meandering "mini-black hole", a
>>malfunctioning Martian craft, etc.

>>The new twist is that ET was saving us.

><anip>

>Well as for that, Kyle, I doubt it. If they were around, they
>probably looked on with interest, like us watching a lion pull
>down an antelope on National Geographic.

>>At present, I find no compelling argument for one theory over
>>another. A comet or meteor is a possibility, nothing more. Not
>>even necessarily the most likely...just a possibility. My comfort
>>level however resides somewhat "left" of center on this one.

>Well that's my point. Don't forget who posited the "mini black
>hole" theory, while completely ignoring the affect such an
>unproved phenomenon would have on  everything in the near
>vicinity. Anyway, I'm not sure that the mini black hole is given
>credence of late. Am I wrong about that?

>As for the comet/asteroid or mixed version, where's the trace
>material.Usually comets are dirty. Also, how does one apply the
>low angle of impact with "the usual" round  impact craters. See
>my reply to Stan's on this thread re the Tunguska expolsion
>pattern seen from the air. It's not round.


Hi Don,

We quite agree. My comments about the "mini black hole", etc
reflected my initial thoughts, based on my desire to find a more
esoteric cause. None of the proposed theories seems to stand
above the rest at this point. The "mini black hole" idea seems
as unlikely as the 'ET savior" idea.

Particularly with the "ET was saving us" comment, I found more
humor than comfort. I was noting that it was simply the "new
twist" on the older notion that the object itself was an ET
craft. That is a little more heady a notion than I'm ready to
accept. Of course, if the "cube" found is determined by honest
scientific analysis to be something akin to an ET "projectile",
I would have to alter my thoughts on it. *S*

I have no quarrel with your points. We seem to be coming from
the same place.

I sincerely hope whatever object(s) found there proves to help
solve the mystery, but it is likely to simply add fuel to the
debate. I'm ok with that, too!


Best Regards,

Kyle








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                          Re: Moon Questions - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:21:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:57:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - King


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:02:39 -0400
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

<snip>

>Kyle, Don, et al

>I think it is somewhat of a disservice to those who worked hard
>to accomplish what they did with the limited resources and
>political infighting that dogged the race for space for decades.
> The LEM was created to provide a broader look at the moon and
>allow them the ability to go a bit further in their exploration.
> I'm not sure the grass was any greener when they got further
>from the lander, but how would we know if we didn't try?

>There's also a lot of current medical and manufacturing
>technology that was a direct result of NASA's research (and that
>of contractors), and whose to say how those developments might
>have come about without our race into space.  We can complain
>about the resources that might have gone to feed the poor, but
>how many people would be sicker today without the medical
>advances, and advances in exotic materials, that derived from
>Space research.


Hi Steve,

I appreciate your comments!

I agree that the LEM was a marvel of scientific will, and its
longevity and reliability is not in question. I remember the LEM
being used as a lifeboat during Apollo 13. It is completely
mind-boggling that we lost not one astronaut in space. Utterly
amazing.

You may have meant to say, "the [rover] was created to provide
the ability to go further". With this I disagree. We sent
numerous missions to the moon, and they didn't all land in the
same place. The rover was a gimmick...a proof of concept. There
is not a single story from the era which attests to a scientific
advance made as a result of the rover. It was a pie in the face
of our enemy. I don't deny the validity of the missions at all.
I only wish we'd established something more there than a bunch
of piles of trash and several old cars. I think that is a shame.

I was only 11 when the first rover was deployed. That was Apollo
15. I wondered why they sent a manned vehicle when an unmanned
vehicle would be cheaper, able to "go further", and when several
could be sent for the cargo space and the price of the rovers.

If you wanted to "go further", this would have been the more
logical approach. But of course, the Russians had already sent
unmanned rovers to the moon, so that would not be sufficient for
us. We had to "poke the eye", and send an "SUV"...not out of
scientific necessity, but out of political expediency. I bemoan
only the opportunity lost. It certainly would have fed those
scientists hungry for more data and less grandstanding.

I completely agree with your points on the benefits. If my
comments seemed a disservice, that was not my intent. We seem to
have a lot more trouble putting people in space and bringing
them safely home today. Those nerdy cats of
Mercury/Gemini/Apollo had it going on. Gene Krantz, Chris Craft,
etc are among my first heroes, and they lived and worked less
than 25 miles from me. NASA was an annual field trip in school.
I still get goose bumps watching "The Right Stuff" and "From the
Earth to the Moon", and "Apollo 13". I'm definitely proud of the
accomplishments, and fully aware of the benefits, of space
exploration. No quarrel there.

But here we are today, still asking questions about the moon,
and seemingly uninterested in taking advantage of this well
established "space station" which could yield helpful data on a
range of subjects. My question remains...Why?

As an affirmative aside...can you imagine those M/G/A guys being
on the watch during the final Columbia mission? I feel quite
strongly that they might well have saved those astronauts. They
knew that there was more unknown than known. And they firmly
believed that no detail should be brushed aside when the lives
of those aboard are at stake. Back then, "failure is not an
option", was the overriding credo. Amazing times, indeed.

Apparently the benefits realized... and those yet to be
gleaned... are better appreciated by you and I than by those
currently in charge of such things. The moon is old news, is the
message I'm getting. I just don't agree.

All your points are well-taken!

Best Regards,

Kyle









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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 35

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:36:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:49:24 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 35


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 35
September 1, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


CHENEY'S PLANE BUZZED
BY A UFO?

      "Air Force Two, the military plane carrying Vice
President Dick Cheney, was forced to make an evasive
maneuver to avoid another aircraft in the skies above
Bridgeport, Connecticut (population 139,529) earlier this
month, federal officials said yesterday," Thursday, August
26, 2004.
      "As Cheney headed to Westchester County Airport in
White Plains, N.Y. on (Saturday) August 7 (2004), a
collision-avoidance system in the cockpit of the
Gulfstream jet designated as Air Force Two sounded an
alarm and convinced the pilot to climb to avoid another
plane, officials said."
      "The two planes came within 0.44 miles horizontally
and 700 feet (210 meters) vertically, according to the
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), which immediately
pulled the radar and voice tapes for the New York TRACON
in Westbury and has since issued a report to the (U.S.)
Air Force."
      "The FAA said the incident is not technically
classified as a non-military collision or a mistake on the
part of the controller or pilot.  But pilots say that's
extremely unusual for the collision-avoidance system--a
computerized device mandated on all commercial passenger
planes--to sound the alarm to command an evasive
maneuver."
      "'It's a white-knuckle event,' said one veteran
airline pilot who said he had never seen the warning
system call for an evasive maneuver.  It's likely that
Cheney and the other passengers would have felt the G-
forces of the sudden climb, and there have been cases of
flight attendants being injured when aircraft are forced
to make evasive maneuvers."
      "Cheney's press office declined to comment."
      "Air traffic controllers at the New York TRACON in
Westbury pointed out that the controller in charge of Air
Force Two was a superior who had been called in on
overtime, and said the incident shows that FAA has left
the facility understaffed.  The TRACON, whose controllers
guide aircraft to and from New York (City) area airports,
is authorized for 270 fully-trained controllers but has
only 207.  That number is expected to dwindle as
controllers retire in the next few years when the FAA
steps up the pace of hiring."
      "The supervisors called in to work as radar operators
are required to work aircraft only eight hours a month to
keep current, said Dean Iacopelli, the local chapter
president of the National Air Traffic Controllers
Association."
      "'They only dabble in it,' he said, 'There is a real
staffing crisis here.'"
      "But the FAA reported staffing wasn't an issue.  'We
use overtime to meet staffing needs, particularly in the
summer so controllers can take vacation,' said Arlene
Salac, an FAA spokeswoman in New York, adding that the FAA
has launched a study of staffing needs of air traffic
control centers around the country and plans to issue a
report to Congress in December (2004)."
      "The supervisor who was controlling the traffic did
not make a mistake, Salac said.  Because the two aircraft
were not in a tightly-controlled section of airspace, no
separation standards applied; instead pilots and
controllers are instructed to watch out for each other."
      "The aircraft that Cheney's plane was trying to avoid
was an unidentified plane that was not talking to the air
traffic control center." (My emphasis--J.T.)
(Editor's Comment:  Hold it right there!  An unidentified
aircraft, refusing to respond to ATC calls, gets within
700 feet of the vice president's plane and then gets clean
away.  Whatever happened to the U.S. Air Force jet
interceptors that routinely escort Air Force One and Two
on such flights!?  To say nothing of the dozens of
Department of Homeland Security helicopters on patrol in
the New York City area!? Nobody responded to this
emergency!?  What's really going on here?)
      "'The Air Force Two pilot and the controller had the
traffic in sight at all times,' Salac said."
      "The (Gulfstream) plane carrying Cheney and some
family members to a fund-raiser in Harrison, N.Y. was
headed west towards the airport and descending from 11,000
to 6,000 feet (3,300 to 1,800 meters) as the second
aircraft was heading east at about 7,300 feet (2,200
meters).  Iacopelli said a controller sitting next to the
supervisor, who was in charge of Air Force Two, first
pointed out the other airplane when Air Force Two reached
8,500 feet (2,550 meters), yelling, 'Traffic for Air Force
Two!'"
      "The FAA says that when Air Force Two reached 7,400
feet (2,230 meters), the superior cautioned the pilot
aboard Air Force Two about the other plane, and the pilot
responded that he was aware of it."
      "But, at 11:19 a.m., the collision-avoidance system
in the cockpit of Air Force Two sounded an alarm and
commanded the pilot to make an evasive maneuver and climb
to avoid the other plane.  The computerized system sounds
the alarm only when it recognizes the other aircraft is
close enough to be a danger.  The pilot of Air Force Two
gradually climbed to 8,000 feet (2,400 meters) to avoid
the other airplane."
      "The FAA doesn't generally investigate such
instances, but because the plane was carrying the vice
president, the agency put together a report to send to the
Air Force."
(Editor's Comment:  Uh-huh.  And they couldn't use the
other "airplane's" transponder number to identify the
aircraft and its pilot, and forward this information to
the Secret Service and FBI?)
      "Controllers specifically pay attention to Air Force
One and Air Force Two, which are designated on their radar
screens as planes carrying the president and the vice
president."  (See the newspaper Newsday of Long Island,
N.Y. for August 27, 2004, "Cheney's plane had a close call
over Conn. skies."  Many thanks to Nancy Ruhl for this
newspaper article.)


THREE UFOs SPOTTED
SOUTHWEST OF CHICAGO

      On Saturday, August 21, 2004, at 10:30 p.m.,
eyewitness T.J. was in Tinley Park, Illinois (population
48, 401), a suburb southwest of Chicago, when he sighted
something unusual in the sky.
      "We noticed possibly all three of the UFOs on August
21st," he reported, "They were flying from southwest to
northeast, bearing flashing red lights.  I recorded the
event on a digital camcorder.  This event lasted for about
15 minutes; then they vanished.  Another came into view
five minutes later, moving in from the same direction,
then becoming stationary, before vanishing once again."
(Email Form Report)


MYSTERIOUS "RING OF LIGHTS"
SEEN IN SOUTHERN IRELAND

      On Monday, August 23, 2004, at 2:45 a.m., in Nenagh,
County Tipperary, Ireland, the male eyewitness reported,
"On the Dublin side of the town, I was walking to my hotel
when I looked up and could see a 'ring of lights' above
me.  I stopped, and they stopped.  And when I moved again,
the lights moved with me and started to get brighter,
moving clockwise."
      "It stayed above me for seven or eight minutes.  And,
as I turned towards the hotel where I was staying, they
all just went out.  The UFOs appeared in the south and
were moving north.  A ring of lights, moving clockwise.
Height?  I don't know.  Speed was whatever I was walking."
(Email Form Report)
(Editor's Comment:  Last week was a peak week for UFOs on
the Emerald Isle.  Check out the next report.)


UFO APPEARS OVER A
SMALL TOWN IN ULSTER

      On Tuesday, August 24, 2004, eyewitness Milton Clarke
reported, "I was out for a walk" in the Fardross Forest
near Fivemiletown, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland, when
he saw a UFO approach from the northeast.
      "I was out for a walk, and I was watching as the
object appeared," Milton reported, "It appeared to be a
large space ship of some kind.  It was blue, diamond in
shape, with a reddish light glowing around the edge of the
craft.  It was spinning around as it hovered for ten
minutes, with what looked like red search lights moving
around on the ground.  I hid in the trees and watched it
fly away at a very high speed.  It hovered about 10 meters
(33 feet) above the ground.  It came in slow and took off
like a jet."  (Email Form Report)


TWO NIGHT SAUCERS SEEN
IN WILTSHIRE, UK

      On Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 10 p.m., eyewitness
Janet Currass reported, four adults were driving on
motorway A30 between Donhead and Fovant, near Salisbury,
Wiltshire, UK when "we all witnessed the same sighting."
      "The UFOs came from the south, then flew parallel to
the A30.  Two flourescent green discs appeared in the sky
at a height of about 50 meters (165 feet) and a distance
of about 500 meters (1,650 feet) to the south.  They
appeared to have a glowing halo and were darting and
diving very quickly along a course parallel to the road on
which we were driving at a speed of 40 miles per hour."
      "Within a minute, they were joined by two more
objects, identical in nature, all of which were behaving
in a similar manner.  They were in view for around six
minutes or so, darting around but keeping pace and
eventually accelerated away and peeled off to the south
and over a ridge."  (Email Form Report)


UFOs SIGHTED OVER
NEUKIRCHEN, AUSTRIA

      On Thursday, August 19, 2004, eyewitness S.I. and a
friend were outdoors in Neukirchen, a town in the Neider
Osterreich region of Austria when they spied something
unusual in the evening sky.
      "A friend of mine and I looked at the brilliant,
beautiful night sky, and then we spotted something very
strange in the northeast.  It was low above the horizon,
and it looked like a couple of stars at first glance.  And
for one second, I could see hundreds of strange,
artificial-looking lights on the object, and these lights
seemed to have a distinct pattern.  This 'star cluster'
stayed there (hovering) for 30 minutes at minimum."
      "I do have to say that in the last few days, there
has been persistent chemtrail activity.  I spotted
black/silver spheres lurking in the chemtrails in the
high-resolution digital camera photos I took."
      "One would think that there is something going on
here, and the activity seems to occur more and more.
Because the UFO enigma is not 'a Hollywood joke' in
people's minds in this country."  (Email Form Report)


CIGAR-SHAPED UFO SHOWS
UP TWICE IN NEW ZEALAND

      On Friday, August 27, and again on Saturday, August
28, 2004, eyewitness Anthony Milas spotted an unusual UFO
over Waiheke Island, 50 miles (80 kilometers) east of
Auckland, New Zealand.
      "I videotaped it this time (Saturday, August 28,
2004) and had a good look at it through binoculars at the
same time," Anthony reported, "The sighting lasted 10
minutes in total, but I didn't record all of it.  And I
didn't digitise all I needed--it's quite boring footage,
just a line which gets further away and turns into a dot
eventually."
      "As the (cylindrical) object changes course, it seems
to stretch in size.  It looks a little like the warp
effect in Star Trek."
      "Now, what the video doesn't reveal (as I was at
maximum zoom--A.M.) is the darker shape which I believe is
the actual object.  What we see in the videotape is the
kind of fiery aura around it, like flames trailing off of
it.  I was looking through binoculars at the same time,
and I could clearly see the darker cigar-shape that was
surrounded by flame."
      "Obviously, for it appeared on two consecutive nights
at the same time, and indeed made an obvious course
change, it's not a natural phenomenon.  If it were not for
the (cigar) shape, which I could see through the
binoculars, I would think it was a plane with contrails
very far away that happens to be moving at the same rate
as the sun to continually light up the contrails from my
vantage point.  But this seems rather convoluted for an
explanation and doesn't account for the cigar shape."
      "The size of the cigar shape through the binoculars
(about half the length of the glowing part--A.M.) would
suggest it's far too big to be a plane."  (Many thanks to
John Hayes for this news story.)

(Two of the four images provided are available with the
online version of this bulletin at:
http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/v09/rnd0935.shtml -
John @ UFOINFO)


CROP CIRCLES APPEAR IN
CANADA AND POLAND

      Two crop circle formations were found in Matsqui,
British Columbia, Canada early in August, according to
Canadian cerealogist Paul Anderson.
      "Two more formations were found, one with a circle
and two attached crescents and the other resembling an
Egyptian ankh symbol.  Seen by a local resident" in
Matsqui "while skydiving, during the takeoff of the plane
in early August (2004)."
      The find was "not too far from last year's (2003) two
crop circles at Abbotsford, B.C.  An investigation is in
progress by Canadian Crop Circle Research Network--British
Columbia."
      In Poland, "a crop pictogram made from three elements
in wheat was found in Kaczewo village, near Radziejow in
Kujawsko-Pomorska province.  The biggest crop circle was
7.4 meters (24 feet) in diameter."
      "'The agroformation appears to be authentic,' said
Polish cerealogist Stan Barski, who photographed the crop
circles last week."  (Many thanks to cerealogists Paul
Anderson and Robert K. Lesniakiewicz for these news
stories.)

MOTHMAN CURSE
STRIKES AGAIN

      It looks as if the "Curse of The Mothman Prophecies"
has struck again.  Last week the wife of the 2002 film's
director, Mark Pellington, died following a brief illness.
      A statistically-significant number of people
associated with the making of the paranormal film, which
starred Richard Gere, Debra Messing and Laura Linney, have
died under a variety of circumstances since its release
two years ago.
      "Mark Pellington has exited the director's chair for
WB's upcoming Harrison Ford starrer The Wrong Element."
      Pellington, "who came aboard the pic in early July
(2004), bowed out due to the death of his wife last week
after a brief illness."
      "WB has yet to find a replacement for Pellington,
though the studio is actively pursuing a substitute to
keep the pic's intended early fall shoot date."
      "'I am unfortunately stepping down from the job of
directing the film The Wrong Element, due to the recent
tragic loss of my beloved wife Jennifer,' Pellington said
Monday," August 23, 2004, "in a statement to Variety.  'It
is a difficult time, and having suffered the loss of my
life partner and mother to my child, I would not be able
to commit the time and energy and focus at this point
needed to truly successfully helm the film.'"
      "Pellington directed Arlington Road and The Mothman
Prophecies.  He is not attached to any other projects."
(See the newspaper Variety for August 24, 2004, "Ford
finds himself directionless."  Many thanks to Loren
Coleman for this newspaper article.)


KRYPTON DISCOVERED?

      "European astronomers may have discovered the first
rocky planet--one like Earth but 14 times heavier--
orbiting a nearby star."
      "Astronomers have since 1995 detected about 120
planets, all until now thought to be gas giants (like
Jupiter and Saturn--J.T.), orbiting nearby sun-like
stars."
      "European Southern Observatory astronomers reported
Wednesday," August 25, 2004, "that the new planet circles
the star Mu Arae about 50 light-years away (or about 295
trillion miles, for one light-year equals 5.9 trillion
miles--J.T.)."
      "The planet weighs almost as much as the planet
Uranus" in our solar system "but circles much closer to
its star, completing one orbit every nine-and-a-half days
and enduring surface temperatures of 1,160 degrees."
      "It was detected by measuring gravitational wobbles
that planets trigger in stars.  Many astrophysicists
believe that life as we know it is more likely to have
sprung up on a rocky planet than a gas planet."
      The newly-discovered planet in the Mu Arae system is
a virtual twin of the fictional planet Krypton, the
homeworld of the movie and comic book hero Superman.
      Indeed, in his book Superman: The Ultimate Guide to
the Man of Steel, author Scott Beatty wrote, "Orbiting a
red dwarf star some fifty light-years distant from Earth,
the planet Krypton was once very much like our world.  In
fact. Krypton's inhabitants were indistinguishable from
humans, though far more advanced." (see page 10 of
Beatty's book--J.T.)
      In 1938, two teenagers from Cleveland, Ohio--Jerry
Siegel and Joseph Shuster--concocted the idea of Krypton.
Astronomers of the time ridiculed the notion, claiming
that the idea of a rocky planet much larger than Earth was
"preposterous."
      Theory confirmed.  Go collect your Nobel Prize,
fellas.  (See USA Today for August 26, 2004, "Earth-like
planet detected at nearby star.")
(Editor's Comment:  If "Krypton" has been discovered, can
you-know-who be far behind?  Awwwww, you guessed!)


ANOTHER EXTRASOLAR
PLANET FOUND

      "A tiny telescope has detected the silhouette of a
massive planet orbiting a nearby star, astronomers say."
      "The Trans-Atlantic Exoplanet Survey (TrES) telescope
network reports a four-inch (10-centimeter) scope turned
up a Jupiter-sized planet, called TrES-1, orbiting a star
500 light-years away (or 2.6 quadrillion miles; remember,
one light-year equals about 5.9 trillion miles--J.T.)."
      "Developed by researchers at Caltech, the Harvard-
Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, Lowell Observatory
and the National Center for Atmospheric Research, TrES
uses off-the-shelf camera equipment to measure the dip in
starlight detectable when a planet passes in front of its
star, the 'transit' method."
      "TrES-1 orbits close to its star, circling once every
three days.  Astronomers have detected more than 120
planets in the past decade, but only a handful of
'transit' planets like TrES-1."  (See USA Today for August
25, 2004, "Distant planet found orbiting its star," page
12B.)


 From the UFO Files...

4000 B.C.: IRAQ'S MYSTERIOUS
                   PYRAMIDS

      As I write this, American troops and armor are
closing in on the Old City section of Najaf, located 160
kilometers (100 miles) south of Baghdad, in their battle
against the Shiite Muslim militia of the renegade imam
Moqtaba al-Sadr.
      By some strange twist of fate, Americans now find
themselves fighting for control of the most occult real
estate in Iraq.  For the holy city of Najaf is located
right in the middle of Iraq's pyramid belt.
      Eight kilometers (5 miles) north of Najaf is the
village of Birs Nimrud, built on the site of the ruins of
the ancient Sumerian city of Borsippa.  Just outside the
village is a colossal pyramid, known in Iraq as a
ziqqurat.  The village was named "Nimrud" after Nimrod,
the Babylonian king who built the Tower of Babel.  (See
Genesis 10: 8-12--J.T.)  Arabic tradition claims that the
ziqqurat is all that remains of the original Tower of
Babel.
      "In 1852 Oppert carried out excavations, and in 1902
Koldeway unearthed, on the north side of the ziqqurat, the
remains of the E-Zida, the Temple of Nabu, (Sumerian) god
of the scribes, whose emblem was a stylet or bird, and who
was held in great veneration among the Babylonians and the
Assyrians."
      "His cult was linked with that of Marduk (or
Merodach, chief god of Babylon--J.T.), and the god of
Borsippa even visited in person (during) the festivals of
the new year."  Ancient astronaut buffs, please take note.
      "The E-Zida was a temple as big as that of Marduk.
It was constructed from unbaked bricks and was built to
the same design.  It occupies a rectangle 302 feet (90
meters) by 331 feet (100 meters); its four corners
correspond to the points of the compass, and it contains
on the northeast side, that of the main entrance, a great
rectangular courtyard 92 feet (27 meters) by 134 feet (40
meters) leading on the southwest (side) to the sanctuary,
which is preceded by two pronaoses."
      "The ziqqurat, about 150 feet (45 meters) high, stood
some 50 yards (45 meters) to the southwest of the temple;
it measured around the base 148 feet (45 meters) by 200
feet (60 meters).  Its present appearance is that of a
steep hill crowned by a great section of wall containing a
tower built of baked bricks."
      But there is one curious anomaly about the E-Zida
ziqqurat.  "On the southwest of the platform are great
dark blocks of partially vitrified bricks, the result of
some violent conflagration."
      The damage suggests that the ziqqurat was hit by
either some alien weapon or a weapon of the Drona Parva
before the dawn of recorded history.  Vitrification of
brick requires temperatures of thousands of degrees
Celsius.
(Editor's Note:  The Drona Parva is a book of the ancient
Indian Mahabharata, which describes energy weapons of
fantastic power.  They make the hydrogen bomb look like an
M-80 Fourth of July firecracker.)
      Fourteen kilometers (9 miles) south of Najaf is
Naifar.  Today a sleepy village in a plain crisscrossed by
canals, it was once the site of the ancient Sumerian city
of Nippur.  Nobody knows just how old Nippur really is.
It's mentioned in the Sumerian King List as one of the
cities that existed in Sumer before "the Great Flood of
Ut-napishtim."  (Better known as the Deluge of Noah's Ark
to readers of the Bible--J.T.)
      "The ancient city of Nippur was an important
religious capital from the end of the Fourth Millenium
B.C.  It possessed a famous sanctuary consecrated to the
god Enlil, who was considered the chief deity of the
Sumerian pantheon.  The prosperity of Nippur declined with
the coming of the first Babylonian dynasty at the
beginning of the Second Mi llenium.The cult of its patron
deity no longer received the same enthusiasm from the
pilgrims, who transferred their devotion to the Babylonian
gods of whom Marduk was the chief.  For all that, the
temple of Enlil was no less supported" by the empire "up
to the time of the later Babylonian period (Seventh
Century B.C.)...It was probably only in the Tenth Century
(A.D.), in the Muslim period, that Nippur was abandoned."
      "The western part of the great tell (mound--J.T.)
marking the site of the ancient city has been identified
as the residential and commercial quarter.  The eastern
part contains the sacred quarter and is dominated by the
remains of the ziqqurat, which amounts of no more than a
mass of unbaked bricks dominating the whole area of the
ruins.  The tower was dedicated to the god Enlil and was
(later) covered by a palace built during the Parthian
period.  The temple of Enlil was situated below and to the
east of the ziqqurat and goes back, in its latest state,
to the second Babylonian period."
      "In the perimeter wall" of the Temple of Enlil, "two
foundation deposits left by Ur-Nammu, the first king of
the third Ur dynasty, have been discovered; they testify
that he built the E-Kur, meaning probably the perimeter of
this sacred area."
      "To the west of the ziqqurat the American expedition
also discovered the remains of a temple of the third Ur
dynasty, part of which at any rate was dedicated to Inanna
(Sumerian "Queen of Heaven"--J.T.), as several bricks
stamped with the name of the goddess by Shulgi, king of
Ur, prove."
      "Beneath the two towers flanking the entrance two
formation deposits were found containing a bronze figurine
of Shulgi."
      So, from about 4,000 B.C. to 700 B.C., Nippur
functioned as THE holy city of Sumeria, later Babylonia,
much as Najaf does in today's Iraq.  But if it was "the
Vatican" of the priests of Enlil, Nippur was also the
stomping ground of the Black Circle, an association of
sorcerers of whom the most notorious was Gimil-ishbi.
      In 1927, before he wrote his Kull of Atlantis
stories, Texas author Robert E. Howard (1906-1936) did a
number of "past life reminiscence" tales.  None saw print
during his lifetime, but one, "The House of Arabu," (Arabu
was the Sumerian netherworld--J.T.), finally saw
publication in 1951.
      Here is a description of Nippur from REH's story:
      "Pyrras swore under his breath.  They were passing
the great temple of Enlil, towering up three hundred feet
in the changeless blue sky."
      "'The towers stand against the sky like part of it,'
he swore, raking back a damp lock from his forehead."
      "Naram-ninub pointed to the great zikkurat of Enlil,
brooding over all like the brutish dream of a mad god."
      "'See ye the seven tiers; the lower black, the next
of red enamel, the third blue, the fourth orange; the
fifth yellow, while the sixth is faced with silver, and
the seventh with pure gold which flames in the sunlight?
Each stage in the temple symbolizes a deity; the sun, the
moon and the five planets Enlil and his tribe have set in
the skies for their emblems.  But Enlil is greater than
all, and Nippur is his favored city.'"
      "'Greater than Anu?' muttered Pyrras, remembering a
flaming shrine and a dying priest who gasped an awful
threat."
      "'Which is the greatest leg of a tripod?' parried
Naram-ninub."
      A series of paranormal attacks convinces Pyrras, the
mercenary warrior from northern Europe, that he was indeed
cursed by the priest of Anu.  So he goes in search of the
sorcerer Gimil-ishbi, whom his mistress, Amytis, tells him
"dwells in the mound of Enzu, to the west of the city."
(Editor's Note:  That would be somewhere around Souk al-
Afej, seven kilometers or 4 miles west of the Nippur
ruins.)
      "Whether the cavern was hollowed by man or by Nature,
none ever knew.  At least its walls, floor and ceiling
were symmetrical and composed of blocks of greenish stone,
found nowhere else in that level land."
      The sorcerer in the cave proved to be no less
formidable.
      "Gimil-ishbi was very old.  There was no leaven of
Semitic blood in his withered veins.  His bald head was
round as a vulture's skull, and from it his great nose
jutted like the beak of a vulture.  His eyes were oblique,
a rarity even in a pure-blooded Shumirian, and they were
bright and black as beads.  Whereas Pyrrhas's eyes were
all depth, blue deeps and changing clouds and shadows,
Gimil-ishbi's eyes were as opaque as jet, and they never
changed.  His mouth was a gash whose smile was more
terrible than its snarl."
      "He was clad in a simple black tunic, and his feet,
in their cloth sandals, seemed strangely deformed.
Pyrrhas felt a curious twitching between his shoulder-
blades as he glanced at those feet, and he drew his eyes
away, and back to the sinister face."
      Feeling in an expansive mood, Gimil-ishbi welcomes
the warrior to his abode and lets slip a little of his
origin.
      "'You are far from the cradle of your race,' said
Gimil-ishbi, 'You are the first golden-haired rover to
tread the plains of Shumir.'"
      "'I have wandered in many lands,' muttered the
Argive, 'but may the vultures pluck my bones if I ever saw
a race so devil-ridden as this, or a land ruled and
harried by so many gods and demons.'"
      "His gaze was fixed in fascintation on Gimil-ishbi's
hands; they were long and narrow, white and strong, the
hands of youth.  Their contrast to the priest's appearance
of great age otherwise was rather disquieting."
      "'To each city its gods and their priests,' answered
Gimil-ishbi, 'and all fools.  Of what account are gods
whom the fortunes of men lift or lower?  Behind all gods
of men, behind the primal trinity of Ea, Anu and Enlil,
lurk the elder gods, unchanged by the wars and ambitions
of men.  Men deny what they do not see.  The priests of
Eridu (another Sumerian city--J.T.) which is sacred to Ea
and light, are no blinder than them of Nippur, which is
consecrated to Enlil, whom they deem the lord of Darkness.
But he is only the god of the darkness of which men dream,
not the real Darkness that lurks behind all dreams, and
veils the real and awful deities.  I glimpsed this truth
when I was a priest of Enlil, wherefore they cast me
forth.  Ha!  They would stare if they knew how many of
their worshippers creep forth to me by night as you have
crept."
      Eventually Pyrrhas gets the charm he needs to ward
off his paranormal enemies.  More of REH's story I will
not reveal, except to note that wizard and warrior do not
exactly part on the best of terms.
      At any rate, there was a strong black magickal
tradition in that region when Najaf was still an empty
desert.  (See the books The Middle East, Hachette World
Guides, Paris, 1966, pages 746 to 749; Middle East on a
Shoestring, 2nd edition, Lonely Planet Publications,
Hawthorne, Vic., Australia, 1997, page 309; and The Avon
Fantasy Reader, Avon Books, 1969, pages 13, 14, 17, 20, 21
and 22.)

Next Week: Strange Doings in Kufa

      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us next time for
more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you then!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 1

                          Re: Moon Questions - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:59:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:52:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - King


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:08:42 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 12:43:45 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

<snip>

>>Oh, and The Rubaiyat was written by Omar Khayyam

>That was _delightfully_ abstruse!

>"The moving finger writes and having writ moves on," Mr. King.
>"All your piety nor wit cannot call back a single line to
>alter, nor all your tears wash a word of it."

Alfred,

You are very fond of that line. Very odd you don't seem to know
how to spell the author's name. Takes away from the credibility
in my opinion.

Luckily you need neither piety nor wit to call back that single
line, and your tears are likewise not required. Just a little
"backspace, retype, and save" will do the trick. :)

So Alfie-baby, I leave you to your Odes, and your ever-moving
finger. At best, what I accumulated from your site was an
overwhelming sense of boredom. Unfortunately, neither my piety
nor my wit can change that. But heck, it's just my opinion. I
could be wrong.


Goodbye and Best Wishes,

Kyle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 1

                   Re: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:59:40 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:54:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'? - Hatch


>From: William Wise <w.wise.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 14:03:23 -0400
>Subject: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'?

>When reading through Blue Book case files one often runs
>across statements much like the following:

>"Venus appears low on the horizon at this time of year and is
>unusually bright; it is possible for it to appear to change
>color and perform erratic maneuvers when seen through thin
>clouds or ground haze."

>It would be interesting to observe video of Venus under such
>conditions to better understand and appreciate how astronomical
>phenomena under unusual conditions can lead to their
>misidentification. This would be true for other unusual
>phenomena such as sun dogs, moon dogs, and relatively slow
>moving bollides as well.

>Venus being the most predictable of these phenomena I assume it
>would be the easiest to capture on tape during the sort of
>conditions that would give rise to misidentification as a UFO.

>If any such video is available a link would be most welcome.


Hello William:

Yes! Such videos should be easily made, but I don't know where
to find them.

I'm bothered by the statement " Venus appears low on the horizon
at this time of year and is unusually bright.. "

Venus' position and brightness depend on the relative positions
of Earth, Venus and the Sun, all in relation to one another.
 While easily predicted with simple astronomical programs, "this
time of year" gives the false impression it depends on the
Earthly calendar alone .. as if Venus were a fixed star.

It would be interesting to know who originally came up with that
jewel. One might then look at his other arguments.


Best wishes

- Larry








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                   Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo - Harrison

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:01:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:56:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo - Harrison


>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 06:23:26 +1000
>Subject: Re: Newest AUFORN UFO Photo

<snip>

>Link to the photo you requested, Robert posted a link to
>the recent Victorian sighting which are also interesting.

>http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Tewantin.html


Thanks again.

Larry










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                       High School Student's UFO Video

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:34:42 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:02:25 -0400
Subject: High School Student's UFO Video


Hey! Here's something unusual! No, not that someone took a
picture of a UFO but that before the news published the story
they actually got it analyzed!

Why if this kind of professionalism keeps up they're gonna put
the rest of the newspapers out of business.

Greg

-----

Source: The Southeast Missourian - Cape Girardeau, Missouri

http://www.semissourian.com/story.html$rec=145099

High school student's video - UFO over Jackson?


By Tony Rehagen ~ Southeast Missourian
trehagen.nul

At about 7:30 p.m. on Aug. 11, Zach Stanfield was taking his dog
outside of his Jackson home when he spotted something strange in
the clouds of the evening sky. He quickly ran inside to grab his
binoculars, which revealed a more detailed view of a - well, he
didn't know what. He ran back into the house, grabbed his DVC
handheld video camera and filmed away.

"I really don't know what it is," says Zach, talking on the
phone to his cousin, Audrey Stanfield, while taping.

"It's black." Pause. "Round, it's round," he says.

"What is it?" he asks.

What the video captured was about five minutes of a 35-minute
episode in which a dark shape hovers in a tight holding pattern
of small circles above Stanfield's yard. Slowly the subject
makes its way east across the evening sky before disappearing
into the dark clouds of oncoming night.

On the tape, as the object makes its revolutions, the shadowy
shape shifts from a round dot to a thin rounded bar, resembling
a penny as it rolls on its edge in circles on a surface. But
this coin-shaped object was rolling on an invisible plane in the
air a good distance above Zach Stanfield's head.

"Sure it's not a plastic bag or something?" asks Audrey, now
standing beside cameraman, watching the object hover.

"Why would there be a plastic bag up in the clouds?" shoots back
Zach. "You wouldn't be able to see it that high up."

"What else could it be?" Audrey asks.

Can't gauge size, distance

Larry Davis isn't sure, either. Davis has spent the last 12
years looking at objects in the sky as Cape Girardeau Regional
Airport's chief air traffic controller. Viewing the videotape,
he could only guess.

"It could be one of those mylar discs," he said, referring to
the popular flying toys that are essentially disc-shaped
balloons made of metallic plastic and often filled with helium.

The problem is, Davis said, that the video just shows the shape
in a vast sky, so it's impossible to gauge the distance and size
of the object. Mylar discs are usually about 30 inches in
diameter.

Difficult to explain is how something as light as a mylar disc -
- which weighs little more than an ounce - could hover in the
same area and avoid being blown about. However, Davis said it is
possible that the metallic plastic could conduct enough heat
from the sun's rays to create convection heating that would
produce the effect. Davis also said thunderstorms can create an
updraft that could catch such an object and keep it in one area.

But for all the possibilities, he isn't sure of anything.

No digital alteration

Jim Dufek and Fred Jones of Southeast Missouri State
University's communications department aren't sure what the disc
was either, but they are sure that the tape is legitimate.

"Whatever it is, it's real," Jones said, watching the tape in
the university's video room.

"There's nothing digital on it," Dufek said. "I don't see any
pixel breakup around the subject. There's no superimposing."

One effect Dufek said would not be hard to doctor is the flare
of light that abruptly appears on the underside of the shape
toward the end of the tape. The light quickly flickers and fades
as the shape continues its holding pattern. But Dufek said it
doesn't appear doctored on this tape.

Zach Stanfield, a member of the Notre Dame Regional High School
Audio/Visual Club, said he thinks the flare might be the
reflection of the sun as it sets in the west. That would suggest
a metallic element to the object, like that of Davis' mylar
disc.

But all of this is speculation, and right now he isn't exactly
sure what it means or what he's going to do with his amateur
movie. He said he'll probably just wait and gauge local
reaction. All he knows for sure is that he, Audrey, his
neighbor, Judy Hoffman, and Hoffman's mother-in-law, Carmen
Hoffman, saw an unidentified flying object in the sky over
Jackson.

"Do you think it's a saucer?" Audrey asks on the tape as the sky
darkens. "Like a flying saucer?"

"If it's that high up, it's got to be big up close," Zach
replies.

"It's perfectly round," Audrey says. "Uh, Zach, that's weird."









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                  'Gobsmacked' UFO Skeptic Turned Believer

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:48:40 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:11:35 -0400
Subject: 'Gobsmacked' UFO Skeptic Turned Believer


http://www.miltonkeynestoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=415&ArticleID=847
401

This story is a double riot for me. First of all it has the
expression "Gobsmacked" in it. I first heard that one from good
ol' Alfred Lehmberg over at Jeff Rense's forum where I moderate.
I had to call back home to the hill folk to find out what
'Gobsmacked' meant. They had to dig up one of the old folks who
still remembered!

"Well I'll be gobsmacked iffin' you ain't heard of bein'
'gobsmacked'!" was one reply.

Never-the-less - AP Stylebook forgive me - this story is about a
skeptic - spelled sceptic in the article - who ran into his own
encounter.


Best,

Greg

["Gobsmacked" - As in struck dumb/dumbstruck - Northern English
 expression. As in Python's "Shut yer festering gob, you tit!"
 Gob = mouth. 'Sceptic' is English spelling as is the newspaper
 above - as in English came before 'Murikan' --ebk]







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                       Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:26:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:13:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - King


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <Ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 18:34:15 +0100
>Subject: Hungarian UFO Photo?


>As this List has been on the subject of UFO Photos of late, i.e.
>Brunswick etc, I found this picture on Phillip Matle's website:
>http://www.beyondroswell.com/Mantle/Hufon.htm

>If you have already seen this picture then forgive me, but as
>Phillip quotes HUFON on his page:

>"HUFON researchers were left with the conclusion that this is a
>genuine UFO photograph, and that a real, flat, disc-shaped
>object, several meters in diameter can be seen in the photo, the
>surface of which appears to reflect the autumn sunshine."

>Your thoughts on this picture are sought.


My 2 cents...

The photo was underexposed... leaving the subject in almost
total darkness except for the tip of the nose and the sides of
the legs.

To enhance this kind of image, you should lighten it, not darken
it as the inset is done. This would provide an approximation of
what the photographer saw, and would lessen any artifacts that
an increase in contrast would produce.

When brightened sufficiently to see the subject's face, as the
photographer would have seen it, the object takes on the shape
of an oblong main portion with a blur up and to it's left. It
appears more than anything else like a bird flying up and to the
right in the photo, its near wing appearing as an arc up and to
the left. The large white "gleam" fades into the bright
background, but would correspond with the tail of such a bird
catching the sunlight as it arose into the sky.

If you open the image in an editing app and set it to 300dpi,
you can see the object in much better detail. On lightening the
image, these additional details become immediately apparent.
Since brightening reduces contrast, it is much less prone to
erroneous artifacts, especially when the original image was so
underexposed.

Finally, to say that the object was not moving because it is not
blurred is not an accurate statement. Any decent camera can be
set to a sufficient shutter speed that it stops the action. A
runner in the Olympics can be photographed in full stride, and
yet adorn the cover of Sports Illustrated in stark detail and
crisp resolution. He certainly didn't stop for the photo.

I have uploaded a brief analysis of this image to:

http://decaykk.com/UFO

I am a novice at this, but the images are there for you to see.
Anyone can duplicate what I have done.

Best Regards,

Kyle









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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 02:17:47 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 22:26:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Ledger


>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:37:35 -0700
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>It shouldn't be forgotten that there was a second witness to
>the "Arnold" sighting, namely the prospector, Fred Johnson of
>Portland. He viewed one of the UFOs through his prospector's
>telescope for quite a few seconds, and got a closer view than
>Arnold. After he wrote his letter to the Air Foce about it, he
>was interviewed by the FBI, who in their letter described him as
>"a very reliable individual."

Ah yes Jim,

I have the documents somewhere as a matter of fact. But the
point I was making-or at least endeavoring to do so, and
probably very poorly at that, was that this was from Arnold's
point of view and within his frame of references. He was
observing these as a pilot with whatever experience and
knowledge that could bring to the table. I believe that this is
why that case remains solid to this day. Arnold eliminated much
of the chaff right from the git go.

At any rate what John refers to as Sacred UFO Mysteries  or
"classic UFO cases" is neither here nor there. It's an attempt,
only, to lessen the validity of a case that hasn't yet been
solved. If you can't debunk it, ridicule it. Add to the giggle
factor.And incidentally, pelicans were never a reasonable
explanation to be considered. it was proffered by a rank amateur
to begin with.

But you bring up a good point, now that you've mention it Jim.
Ain't it strange that a pilot reports these objects and then it
is independently verified by a witness on the ground. Two
witnesses, each of whom had no knowledge of the other's presence
or report.


Don Ledger








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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:46:45 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 22:29:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:38:53 -0300
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:58:00 +0100
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>I haven't found any cases
>>which seem inexplicable, except those for which the information
>>is insufficient or unreliable. There have also been some very >
>intriguing hoaxes and I find it amusing that so many ufologists
>>are in denial about these stories being false, even when the
>>evidence is compelling.

>The above is truly an extraordinary claim and frankly nonsense.
>The professonals at Battelle Memorial Institute who prepared
>"Blue Book Special Report No. 14" (Copy available, but beware,
>it is loaded with data) found that they had to label 689 of the
>3201 cases (21.5%) they examined as UNKNOWN completely separate
>and distinct from the 298 (9.3%) which they listed as
>INSUFFICIENT INFORMATION.

>Furthermore they did a quality evaluation of all the cases and
>found that the better the quality of the case the MORE likely to
>be listed as UNKNOWN. They must have had tough criteria because
>only 9.6% were listed as EXCELLENT, yet 35.1% of them were
>UNKNOWNS while only 18.3% of the 525 POOR cases and 15.6% of the
> 1298 Doubtful cases were listed as UNKNOWNS. A further 26.6% of
>the 1070 Good cases were listed as UNKNOWNS. The better the
>quality the more likely to be UNKNOWNS.

>Frankly it would appear to be straight balderdash that there are
>no cases with sufficient information that were unexplainable,
>and that the problem was poor quality.

>I suppose one solution as to how you could make such an
>extraordinary claim, backed by no data, is that you have only
>looked at a few poor cases and have rushed to judgement by
>extrapolation to a grandiose claim.


The standard, boilerplate assertion (without supportive
evidence) that there are no truly anomalous UFOs, only
insufficient data to find a mundane explanation, is part of the
skeptibunker credo. At NICAP we had rigorous criteria for
screening and investigating reports. We routinely ran checks for
satellites, fireball meteors, advertising aircraft, balloons,
strobe lights...and also considered the `strangeness' of the
individual case and the abilities and character of the
witnesses.

We could explain quite a few cases, many were borderline and not
very impressive, and then there were (and are) the truly
anomalous reports (the "unknowns") that are richly deserving of
far more scientific attention. These cases show strong patterns
of appearance and performance.  Note the heavy emphasis on
investigation. Many self-styled ufologists are clownishly short
on investigation and long on pseudoscience, but that does not
mean that there are no TRUFOS.


 - Dick








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                             UFO Review Issue 4

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:40:00 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 22:30:49 -0400
Subject: UFO Review Issue 4


I am pleased to announce the September issue of UFO Review is
available at:

http://www.uforeview.net

Top left hand button on the site. As usual, a free PDF download.

In our most schizophrenic edition yet, we have two major
interviews. The first is with Will Hart, alternative historian
and author of "The Genesis Race" who discusses his latest ideas
about Man's origins and his dismantling of Darwin's Theory of
Evolution, as well as his next book. The other interview is with
The Devil.

Not the actual Devil you understand but his representative on
Earth, Andy Roberts, well known sceptic and message board & List
combatant. This is an extremely rare and very open and honest
interview with Andy who not only discusses his professional but
also his private life as well. As to be expected, this is a hard
hitting and rather direct dialogue and will offend many. Not for
the faint hearted. Bit of a scoop this, I say modestly. Get to
know and understand the man you want to strangle!

Also, we look at the Jason Leigh Cleburn case again, Noah's Ark
and pyschosis within abductions, plus cartoons, book reviews,
and general irreverent satire. Amazing value for the incredible
price of... errr... nothing!


Stuart Miller








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                         Stanton Friedman Uploaded!

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:10:08 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 22:33:25 -0400
Subject: Stanton Friedman Uploaded!


I just received this. It refers to an interview I did yesterday.

Stan

-----

From: Nancy Lorenz <nancy.nul>
To: <BeyondtheOrdinarydotNet.nul>
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 3:42 AM
Subject: Stanton Friedman uploaded!


Hi Everybody,

A new interview has been uploaded with Stanton Friedman, Nuclear
Physicist and Researcher Extraodinair!


You may listen at your convenience at:

http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/stantonfriedman.shtml

August 31st, 2004 - Program Topic:

Renaming S.E.T.I from "Search for Extra Terrestrial
Intelligence" to "Silly Effort to Investigate" (a group he also
refers to as cultist) Stanton explains his way of interpreting
the "facts" that provides us with a very straightforward means
of determining any logic in these matters. He has never seen a
UFO, but then he has never seen a nuclear particle in all his
years of researching them either, but that doesn't mean they
don't exist!

It is time the US Air Force quit lying to the public, press, and
members of Congress about UFOs.

See other recent uploads at:

http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/audio2004.shtml

Enjoy & Thanks for Listening!

-- Nancy









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                          Re: Moon Questions - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 08:27:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 22:35:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - King


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:04:00 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

<snip>

><snip>

>Greetings Kyle!

>Below is an excerpt of an e-mail I sent to Jeffrey Wilson (of
>crop circle fame) and others in June of last year about his
>father's books. For reasons that are too many to mention here,
>the case that our Moon is indeed an artifical structure in orbit
>about the Earth has not been ruled out. If that August full Moon
>that we saw on TV in the night sky during the closing ceremonies
>of the Olympics in Athens (where couples gather at the Acropolis
>every year to spend a special moment together under its romantic
>bright light) is indeed a massive UFO, which by definition it
>is, it will never again have the same poetic mystique!

>---

>Of the many popular magazine articles and books written about
>our "spaceship" Moon, I consider Don Wilson's two books 'Our
>Mysterious Spaceship Moon', (Dell, 1975) and 'Secrets of Our
>Spaceship Moon', (Dell, 1979) to be the among best researched
>and the ones which provide the most compelling evidence that
>Earth's natural satellite is a giant ET craft.

>It is said the the best way to hide something is to place it out
>in the open. If we really want to see a solution to this UFO
>mystery in our lifetime, we must return to the Moon.



Nick,

Thanks for the reading suggestions. While I admit that the
stated thesis is a bit of a stretch for me, I will check out the
books you mentioned. It would offer a possible explanation for
our apparent disinterest in going back there. At the very least
there is a lot that we still don't know about our nearest
neighbor.

Thanks again!


Kyle








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                   Re: Zen & Sagan & The Art Of Scientific

From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 07:38:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 22:38:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Zen & Sagan & The Art Of Scientific


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:34:08 EDT
>Subject: Zen & Sagan & The Art Of Scientific Foot-Shooting

>http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/Literature/essays/mzs/foot-shooting.html

>Okay, this is the funniest darned look at mainstream science
>I've ever read outside of 'MAD Magazine'.

>Some of our favorites are mentioned like Sagan, Kaku, Asimov.

I grew up watching "Cosmos" on PBS and have always been an
admirer of Sagan.

I've also admired many of Asimov's writings, in particular his
book 1979 "Extraterrestrial Civilizations" and the 1964 book
"Planets for Man" coauthored with Stephen H. Dole.

I was, however, disappointed with comments he made in one of his
articles regarding Stanton Friedman and others who accept the
ETH. Something to the effect that these people have abandoned
reason and joined a cult. Perhaps its association with the early
contactee movement influenced Asimov's perceptions of the ETH.

I admire Kaku for "Hyperspace" and "Visions" especially, as well
as the fact that he has never made dismissive comments about UFO
witnesses or the hypothetical possibility of ET visitation.
However, I am not convinced by his arguments against the use of
nuclear power in space.

There are not very many options available to us given our
current technological limitations, and space exploration is
worth taking substantial risks given that our species' long-term
survival depends on expanding human presence into the galaxy.

Regarding the current article, I'm not quite sure where the
author is coming from. Is she saying that scientists should be
more politically correct and keep their opinions about religion
to themselves? That's hardly a reasonable position. I always
liked Sagan's style of poking fun at the shortcomings of
religious and New Age thinking. Anyone who considers it
offensive is being rather thin-skinned, in my view.








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              Re: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 35 - Trainor

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:39:51 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 22:41:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 35 - Trainor


>     UFO ROUNDUP
>Volume 9, Number 35
>September 1, 2004
>Editor: Joseph Trainor

>E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
>Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


<snip>

>CIGAR-SHAPED UFO SHOWS
>UP TWICE IN NEW ZEALAND

>     On Friday, August 27, and again on Saturday, August
>28, 2004, eyewitness Anthony Milas spotted an unusual UFO
>over Waiheke Island, 50 miles (80 kilometers) east of
>Auckland, New Zealand.

Seems like Anthony was seeing aeroplanes.

Brian Vike (HBCC UFO Research) received the following message
from Anthony just after I sent the bulletin out yesterday:

Well some bad news... I've since observed the object every night
following and on two ocassions seen a second one following.
After careful study through binoculars I've concluded these are
actually just planes with contrails that stay illuminated due to
travelling toward the setting sun - I suspect the dark "object"
I saw in the middle was actually just the space between the two
contrails from each jet.  There is probably an evening flight to
Australia (or sometimes two) and thats what I'm seeing
travelling north-west.  I did see one kind of "pulse" breifly
one night but I thought that could be accounted for by
turbulence hitting the plane.

If you have an FTP site somewhere that can handle a 32MB file
I'm happy to upload the first timelapse file there anyway - but
really I think these are just aeroplanes! :-) It would make
sense with them appearing at exactly the same time and same
trajectory each night as well.  Thanks for the interest and
sorry to waste your time!

[END]

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-









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                         Missouri 'UFO' Toy Balloon

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:42:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:49:34 -0400
Subject: Missouri 'UFO' Toy Balloon


http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/9553779.htm?1c

Bible school game is culprit in UFO mystery


Associated Press

JACKSON, Mo. - A UFO that was the talk of this southeast
Missouri town turned out to be nothing more than a vacation
Bible school game gone awry.

Just after 7 p.m. on Aug. 11, 16-year-old Zach Stanfield was
videotaping a shadowy, disc-shaped object hovering in the sky
above his home in this town about 100 miles south of St. Louis.
Just down the road outside Calvary United Pentecostal Church,
Edward Moore was getting a dirty look from his wife, Cherie, as
the two watched a mylar disc float into the atmosphere.

It turns out that Stanfield and the Moores were looking at the
same thing.

Cherie Moore had bought a pair of the $9 mylar discs for the
children attending the church's vacation Bible school to play
with. But one had sprung a leak, and Edward Moore was having
trouble getting the other one to fly.

"It just wasn't discing right," he said. "So I got the bright
idea of airing it up with some helium."

Too much helium, it turned out, and the disc soared away.

On Tuesday, the Southeast Missourian newspaper in Cape Girardeau
ran a front page photo of the disc, taken from Stanfield's
video, with a story about an unidentified flying object hovering
over Jackson.

"We were joking about it, saying that someone was going to see
it and turn it in as a UFO," Cherie Moore said. "When I saw the
paper this morning, I about died."

Chief air traffic controller Larry Davis of the Cape Girardeau
Regional Airport had originally posed the possibility of the
object being a mylar disc. He said too much helium would indeed
have given the disc the strange hovering effect seen in the
tape, especially on a day with mild winds.

Information from: Southeast Missourian








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 2

                      Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:48:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:50:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - Shell


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:26:20 -0500
>Subject: Re: Hungarian UFO Photo?

>To enhance this kind of image, you should lighten it, not darken
>it as the inset is done. This would provide an approximation of
>what the photographer saw, and would lessen any artifacts that
>an increase in contrast would produce.

Not necessarily. The person was in a shadow or a more darkened
area, while the "object" was apparently out in the bright hazy
sunlight. The camera probably automatically adjusted to the hazy
sunlight (common for an automatic camera), but the photographer
didn't compensate with a fill flash. So the "proper" exposure is
that which caught the object, so it needs no further adjustment
in contrast or brightness.

An interesting view of it can be created by extrapolating to a
higher resolution. For example, here's the object using a 300
dpi resolution, instead of the 72 dpi resolution of the photo on
the net.

http://www.cpu-net.com/host/shell/hungufo.jpg

The interesting thing in this extrapolation is that the top of
the UFO appears to be somewhat concave, not shaped like a bottle
cap, and that there's a kind of partial ridge along the upper
left edge.

Well, as digital cameras get less expensive, maybe one day in
the future we'll have photos with images as clear as people used
to get with a Brownie Hawkeye.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 2

                  Re: Microbiologist Death Question - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:04:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:52:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Microbiologist Death Question - Boone


>From: Nicholas Redfern <nick.redfern.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:09:11 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Microbiologist Death Question

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:44:05 EDT
>>Subject: Who's Bumping Off The Microbiologists?

>>This story about the ongoing accident prone microbiologists
>>is getting scarier by the day.

>>Does it have anything at all to do with Ufology? Were any of
>>them connected?

>In answer to the question about further research on those
>microbiologist deaths of a couple of years ago, there is a book
>coming out on that, later this year or early next by a guy
>named Dan Tanner.

>I met Tanner earlier this year and his book was at proof page
>then and I got to read some of it.

>No UFO material, but it's a huge book and there are 2 chapters
>on the Marconi "Star Wars" scientist deaths in the UK in the
>1980s as well.

>Tanner told me the provisional title is "Bio-Death: State
>Sanctioned Murder?"


>Nick Redfern

Wow Nick! That's great news! Thanks for the heads up on this new
book! Thank goodness somebody round these parts is doing
something about it. Mayhaps this'll open our eyes as to what's
really going on.


Best,

Greg








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   Sep > Sep 2

                        Re: Moon Questions - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:12:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:55:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Questions - Lehmberg


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:59:03 -0500
>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:08:42 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Moon Questions

<snip>

>>That was _delightfully_ abstruse!

>>"The moving finger writes and having writ moves on," Mr. King.
>>"All your piety nor wit cannot call back a single line to
>>alter, nor all your tears wash a word of it."

>You are very fond of that line. Very odd you don't seem to know
>how to spell the author's name. Takes away from the credibility
>in my opinion.

Right - when you've nothing to add, criticize the spelling,
that way you can mask creative paucity with a perceivable, but
bogus, acuity.

>Luckily you need neither piety nor wit to call back that single
>line, and your tears are likewise not required. Just a little
>"backspace, retype, and save" will do the trick. :)

It's sure looks easy when ~you~ do it, Sir.

>So Alfie-baby, I leave you to your Odes, and your ever-moving finger.

Alfie-baby... Lovely. You make me feel all warm inside. You
hitting on me?

>At best, what I accumulated from your site was an
>overwhelming sense of boredom. Unfortunately, neither my piety
>nor my wit can change that. But heck, it's just my opinion. I
>could be wrong.

Could be... and thanks for the feedback. I should think, though,
that you'd be bored if an ideological fertilizer bomb went off
in your intellectual grain silo. Looking forward to more of your
contributions to the list, Mr. King. The moving finger _will_
write for all your clever little attempts at cheap insult and
errant backspacing. Tata!


alienview.nul
EXPLORE "AlienViewGroup" at its HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net








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   Sep > Sep 2

                   Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:17:10 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:57:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - Ledger


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:11:29 -0500
>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 14:22:14 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

<snip>

>I have no quarrel with your points. We seem to be coming from
>the same place.

>I sincerely hope whatever object(s) found there proves to help
>solve the mystery, but it is likely to simply add fuel to the
>debate. I'm ok with that, too!

I suspect there is some third option not thought of that might
present itself in the future, perhaps when we know more about
comets, their makeup and their flight characteristics as they
are breaking up in the atmosphere. Since they tend to be dirty,
fissured, and porous lumps of ice,  there is the possibility
that during entry and subsequent to that they squirrel around as
fissures open up and possible pockets of gas explode moving that
body around in less than the usual straight-line plummet to
Earth.

That's the easy part. Now the explosion and then the lack of any
real trace evidence of such an event other than the marking of
the event by collateral damage and the shape/pattern of the
explosion's result have to be explained rather than guessed at
on both sides. The pictures I've seen of the blast's butterfly
pattern suggest a more lateral flightpath than the more usual
perpendicular straight- down descent. I believe that Soviet
scientist that did the tests suggest a descent angle more in the
vicinity of 45 degrees.

My reasons for wanting to know about what happened at Tunguska
are selfish. This was a frightening release of explosive power
that could have devastated a major city, then or even now.
Knowing at least what actually happened would go a long way to
preparing for a future event.

It has probably happened at other times in Earth's history and
perhaps could happen again.


Best,

Don Ledger








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                           Filers Files #37 - 2004

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul>
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:07:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 09:13:15 -0400
Subject: Filers Files #37 - 2004


Filers Files #37 - 2004, Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern
Vice President of Skywatch International
September 1, 2004
Webmaster: Chuck Warren


The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space as reported each week. These Files make the
assumption that extraterrestrial intelligent life exists and my
hypothesis that UFOs are flying in our skies. Flying Triangle
Evidence, Saturn's - Unidentified Lights, Mars - Welcome Sign on
Burn's Crater, Life Came From Space, New York - Four Objects Fly
in a Circle, Pennsylvania - UFO Effects TV, South Carolina -
Teardrop and Hovering Triangle, Ohio - VHS Video of UFO,Michigan
- Flying Triangle, Wisconsin - Seven White Saucers, Indiana -
Teardrop, Illinois - Flying Triangles, Nevada - Half Moon UFOs,
New Mexico - Metallic Orange Lights, California - Erratic Flying
Objects, Washington - Flying Triangle, Canada - Discs, Mexico -
Six spheres, England - Oval UFO, Philippines - Red UFOs, and
Google Turns Author Over To Critic - Chilling Effect.

Flying Triangle Evidence

The Space Shuttle is no longer flying due to the apparent
complexity of the craft and errors in management that have lead
to the crash of two shuttles. Conversely, we have received over
one hundred UFO reports each week for the last ten years, and
can conclude that a very sophisticated and reliable technology
is flying in our skies and in space. Many scientists claim UFOs
do not exist, yet they have never examined the data, examined
the radar tapes, nor even talked to the eye witnesses. Some of
the greatest and most intelligent people on Earth have been eye
witnesses to UFO technology that is far beyond anything known to
exist in our technology. A new exciting world is available to
those who will examine this evidence. Common among hundreds of
reports are Flying Triangles that hover or fly at extremely low
altitude at 100 to 200 feet above highways and buildings. These
craft operate well below the minimum flight rules for the safe
operation of aircraft and are of ten reported by police for over
twenty years. They also create a road safety hazard. They are
described as having rounded wing tips with bright intense lights
on each corner, usually with a large red light in the center.
They make little or no sounds. They hover and then depart at
high speeds. Today, in a terrorist environment these craft could
also present a terrorist threat and should be reported to
Homeland Security and NORAD.

Saturn - Cassini Satellite Sees Lights

R. David Anderson writes, I have been comparing Saturn Cassini
Images # 00007211 and Cassini Image # 00007442 that JPL received
on July 22, 2004. This bright object has moved thousands of
miles in a short time. There are many other interesting images
sent back to JPL from Cassini near Saturn. You can change the
image number(s) yourself... in order to see other images of this
object above and near Saturn.

"Of course NASA will come up with another explanation for these
pictures like dust specks, cosmic rays, flaw in optics, and the
like. They may have a more difficult time explaining this one
because the object will be in one frame and then not even be in
the next frame, and moves radically in the next frame all the
way to the bottom". A large fast moving lighted object in space
would appear to have its own propulsion system. See the
following web site for numerous JPL images showing movement.

http://www.thecomingoftan.com/illuminated~object/illuminated~object.html

Two More Planets Found

US astronomers say they have found two more Neptune-sized
planets orbiting stars beyond our Solar System. Dr Geoff Marcy,
of the University of California states, "I expect we'll find
dozens of planets between 10 and 20 Earth masses in the next few
years and we are poised to find true Earth-sized worlds!" This
is a breakthrough in finding smaller planets in the search for
life in space. The new planets are only 15 times more massive
than the Earth down from Jupiter-class, that are 318 times more
massive than the Earth. One of the new planets is in the first
four-planet system ever discoveredWell over a hundred planets
have now been located outside the solar system and there may be
hundreds of Earth's just waiting to be found relatively close to
us.

Life Came From Space

Astrobiologists are examining what could be evidence of
extraterrestrial microfossils inside a meteorite that fell to
France 140 years ago. The Orgueil meteorite, a type of space
rock known as a carbonaceous chondrite, has long sparked
questions about potential traces of life from space. NASA
astrobiologist Richard Hoover shared his research team's
preliminary findings that samples showed what appeared to be
fossilized traces of cyanobacteria within the soft rock.
Biologists have come to believe that life might have gotten its
start in Earth's oceans in the form of cyanobacteria =97 but to
find such traces in a rock that apparently spent millions of
years in space rather than in water came as a surprise. Any
scientist's first thought would be that the biological
structures were the result of earthly contamination, but Hoover
said the structures' composition argues strongly against that.
"The organic matter contains isotopes that absolutely could not
be from terrestrial contamination," he said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3217961

Mars - Welcome Sign on Burns's Crater

The Mars Rover moved up to Burn's Crater and found a Martian
Welcome Sign. Can anyone read Martian? It is my opinion these
are not natural erosion marks. On the top right of the crater
there appears to be TPYIX IIV

East Coast - High Altitude Anomaly

MUFON's Kim Shaffer reports, "At 8:35 PM, a strange high
altitude anomaly was seen over most of the Rast coast on August
31, 2004, including by persons in Tennessee. Preliminarily,
reports have been received by Peter Davenport and myself from
most Eastern states..

The anomaly was spotted by this witness at about the same time
which indicates that it was at an extreme altitude and probably
in space. Most descriptions of the object were generally the
same, a white concentric body with four wing like structures and
a flashing strobe white light affixed to the end.

MUFON Tennessee analysis indicates this was a classified
military cargo using the last Atlas 2 rocket ever to fly
successfully delivering a U.S. reconnaissance satellite into
space and ending a chapter in rocket history. The flight also
marked the last time a rocket would liftoff from pad 36A at Cape
Canaveral. However, a rocket with a strobe light and a launch
over the US seems questionable? Thanks to Kim Shaffer MUFON TN
Director http://www.mufontennessee.org/

New York - Four Objects Fly in a Circle

STATEN ISLAND - The witness was traveling south on Hylan
Boulevard on August 24, 2004, at 10 PM, when he sited four white
objects which took on an appearance of the light of advertising
lights on this hazy evening. They were traveling southeast about
40 mph and were playing a game like ring around the ros=E9. They
would come together in the center, touch, and then go back out
again. They continued to travel separately, in a circle and then
come together and touch, and then go back out. They did this ten
or twelve times. He states, "I followed them for as long as I
could, about a mile or so until the end of the road where it is
pretty deserted. The lights continued until I lost sight of
them. I got the impression a couple other cars were also
watching what I saw.

Pennsylvania - UFO Effects TV

POTTSTOWN - It was about 2:30 AM, on August 10, 2004, and the
non cable TV channels kept getting very fuzzy. The witness
noticed a strange flying object with different colors. He
states, "When I ran to my window, I saw three yellow lights in a
row with the middle one a little bit lower than the other two."
The object was making the TV go haywire with loud static, and a
humming noise. The object was going straight up, not on a slant
like airplanes. I called all the airports in my area and there
were no airplanes flying at that time. When the UFO was over my
house my TV's went crazy then as soon as it was gone they came
back to normal operation. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.hbccufo.com

South Carolina - Teardrop and Hovering Triangle

GREENVILLE - At 11:15 PM, the witness was heading east on I-185
on August 23, 2004, when he saw four white lights, about 1.5 the
brightness of Venus in a line that was a distance of about 1.5
the diameter of a full moon. A fifth light was in back of the
four lights. About half way between the single light, and the
middle of the four lights there was one red light slightly
brighter than the white ones. He exited onto I-85 south and
turned around and went back to try and find a place where he
could stop his car. The object was moving very slowly south
parallel to I-85 about 65 degrees up. From this angle there were
two white lights, the same distance apart as the farthest of the
line of four and there was a red light, about 1/4 the diameter
of the moon above the middle of the white lights. I watched it
for about a minute and looked back and it was gone. It is
possible that it flew into a cloud. He turned around again but
it had disappeared. www.hbccufo.com

TEGA CAY - It was 5:45 PM, on August 23, 2004, when I noticed
what looked to be a black teardrop shaped object flying low over
the tree line. It was a was cloudy afternoon and the object was
moving sideways in a straight and unaltered path. It had no
wings, no lights, and was not shaped as such. At first, he
thought it was a large balloon, that was not very large. It was
not moving with the slight breeze, because it was moving so
straight. It seemed to move quickly, but not nearly as fast as
an airplane, such as a bush plane. I am not sure what it was,
since I am not experienced in this type of situation. but it was
quite unusual. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.hbccufo.com

Ohio - VHS Video of UFO

FOSTORIA - A low flying UFO was captured on video about 300
yards from the camera by George Ritter near his home. George
Ritter can reproduce his video in his backyard laboratory on a
regular basis. I encourage universities to examine this
fantastic technology. Researchers are flying in from Sweden and
Germany, but few in the US seem interested. I drove to Ohio and
visited with George and watched him video tape. We did not see
the craft, but high speed UFOs were on the video. There were
also comparatively slow moving insects and birds. Low level UFO
located behind farm on August 27, 2004. Thanks to George Ritter

Michigan - Flying Triangle

ANN ARBOR - On Thursday, August 19, 2004 at around 10 PM, the
observer was driving home on the M-14 Expressway when he noticed
a large bright object just over the trees up ahead. As he got
closer, he saw three large circles with a flashing orange circle
in the middle of a triangular pattern. He states, "I was the
only car on the westbound side of the expressway so I slowed way
down to around 15 mph to observe an object flying at 200 feet in
altitude and just past the Gotfredson exit about fifty yards off
the expressway. As I got closer and was more directly under it,
I noticed that the intense lights were attached to the structure
of a triangular shaped object that was slightly darker than the
night sky. It probably wasn=92t more than 30 feet deep. The lights
did not throw any reflection up to the structure and had no
reflective properties at all. Even the ground below was not lit
up by any light. With as bright as these lights were and how
close it was to the ground, I couldn=92t understand why nothing
was lit up?

This flying triangle was large about the size of a 747 or so.
The ends of the triangle were blunted, they were not sharp. The
object made no noise as it hovered over crop fields and woods.
The craft was staying stock-still. I watched the object for two
more minutes and it never moved. The only motion was the orange
light blinking in the middle of the three other lights. Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Wisconsin - Seven White Saucers in Formation

OSHKOSH - The observer reports he actually viewed a live news
broadcast on the local NBC news affiliate, WTMJ4 here in
Milwaukee on August 20, 2004 of a breaking story of an accident
on I41 at the 4:30 report outside of Oshkosh and they had live
footage from a helicopter. The clock was 4:58 then turned 4:59
PM. "I was watching the footage and noticed seven silver/white
on the top and dark on the bottom, saucer shaped objects fly in
a 'V' formation across the bottom of the screen. I have Tevo so
I pressed record, because what I saw shocked me. My husband and
I later viewed the recording and were totally amazed and a
little freaked out. These objects were absolutely NOT birds or
anything else like that. At one point it almost looks as if one
of them got too close to another and sort of "bounces" off of
the other, and at times you can see the formation "adjusting".
You can plainly see that they are in between the helicopter and
traffic that was backed up from the accident on the ground. You
can also tell that they are traveling over at least 75 mph,
because they are going faster than the traffic on the highway
below. I'm totally amazed and confused, and think you will be
too.

((NUFORC Note: We spoke with this witness, and she sounded
sober-minded to us. We have requested still images from the
tape. PD)) Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.hbccufo.com

Indiana - Teardrop

NEW HAVEN - The witness spotted what I thought at first was an
aircraft with its landing lights on approaching from the
northeast on August 24, 2004. It was going really fast and when
he glanced up as it passed behind him, he drove up a short
distance and turned east when he saw the craft again. It was
going away from me flying in a straight line and that's when I
saw what lead me to believe it was UFO. It had two sets of what
looked like three windows on the back with a flashing red light
located where a plane's tailfin would be located. I lost it
below the horizon after it got past the treeline. I realized
that this object did not make a sound. My friend convinced me to
report this sighting. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.hbccufo.com

Illinois - Flying Triangles

LAKE IN THE HILLS - A network Computer Engineer for twenty years
and his chemist wife witnessed a triangular shaped object moving
across the sky on August 20, 2004, from10:25 to 10:27 PM. At
first glance it looked like three lights heading south. Then the
flying triangle flew right over their heads at a low altitude
and its length was longer than three large commercial aircraft.
The witness looked at the flying triangle (this object) through
Tasco mini binoculars. The object had three lights with one
located on each corner. The object tilted toward the west and
then leveled off. The witness grew up in Elk Grove Village with
a commercial flight path over the top of my parents=92 home since
I was two years old. The witness states, "This was something
that I have never seen before and my wife agrees that this was
the strangest object we have ever seen. "The object only stayed
in sight for three minutes and completely vanished right in
front of us in the partly cloudy sky." www.hbccufo.com

CHICAGO - A mother and daughter telephoned NUFORC, to report
that they had witnessed a very peculiar event from their 22nd-
floor apartment in downtown Chicago on August 20, 2004. Both
witnesses reported that they witnessed one, or more, bright
lights, that =93looked like fireworks, but with no tail,=94 moving
toward their building. Suddenly, the lights reportedly stopped,
and turned into some type of unlighted ship, hovering motionless
in the night sky. The first ship appeared to =93split=94 into two
seemingly similar-looking craft. Neither of the witnesses
thought she had ever seen a UFO before. NUFORC found these
witnesses to be quite sincere. `Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director www.hbccufo.com

Illinois - Veteran Teacher Remembers UFO Visit

Len Wells, Courier and Press correspondent writes: Mount Erie
native Norman Massie dies at 91. He had taught school in Wayne
County for 37 years and once served as principal. While the
folks in Southern Illinois will remember Coach Massie for his
many years in education, perhaps the world will remember him for
what he witnessed 81 years ago - when he was just 10 years old.
It was a warm day in June 1923 when he saw what he was convinced
until his last days was a spaceship. In a 1998 interview with
Norman, he told me, "I opened the gate to let the horses into
the pasture. I looked back down the field and there was an
object with lights all around it," Massie said. "I kept walking
closer to the object until I got about 50 feet away. I stood
there and watched the five men who were on board."

I've heard Norman tell this story many times, and it was always
the same - never embellished from one time to the next. "The
machine was metallic and stood on three legs. The top was a dome
with holes in it. The best way I could describe the top was it
looked like melted glass," Massie said. "I got close enough that
I could hear them talk. One guy sat in a chair and the others
called him the commander. Four others made trips back and forth
in the ship. I didn't know what was going on until the end.
Then, one of the crew members told the commander that the
repairs had been made." Massie said the whole experience lasted
about five minutes. In a matter of minutes, he said, it came to
a hovering position; the tripod legs telescoped up into the
belly of the thing, went straight up about 200 feet and whizzed
off to the west like a bullet.

Norman's mom and dad tried to convince him that he really hadn't
seen anything - that he had made the whole thing up. Then, in
1990, he got up the nerve and told his son who served as a
colonel in the Air Force about the incident. "He told me there
was nothing wrong with me. He said the Air Force files are full
of pictures of UFOs. He accepted my story as the truth." Norman
Massie was never afraid that people might think he was a crazy
old man for what he had seen. "In my own mind and my own heart,
it existed and I saw it with my own two eyes." Norman is gone
now. He leaves his wife, four children, seven grandchildren, 13
great-grandchildren and a remarkable story from his childhood.
His story has traveled around the globe, and is still shared by
those who remain convinced we've received visitors from other
planets.
http://www.courierpress.com/ecp/news/article/0,1626,ECP_734_3128
914,00.html

New Mexico - Metallic Orange Lights

SILVER CITY - On August 21, 2004, two brothers witnessed two
brilliant orange metallic lights flying side-by-side over the
Silver City Mountains at 9 PM, for thirty minutes. We are at an
altitude of 6,000 feet and the lights were higher and just to
the west of the mountains. Looking through binoculars the lights
were solid with no other lights in or around them. The two
lights behaved like the Phoenix lights, fading in and out for
some thirty minutes and appeared in three locations. The lights
did not behave like flares and there were also aircraft in the
vicinity. Stars and a half moon were also visible. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director www.hbccufo.com

AZTEC =97 Debra Mayeux/The Daily Times writes, As research
continues into the infamous, yet unproven Aztec UFO crash of
1948, a Canadian film company has released the first full-length
documentary about the event. The Aztec Public Library, sponsor
of the annual Aztec UFO Symposium, recently received a copy and
plans to premiere it at 7 p.m. Thursday at Aztec City Hall.
=93This video elevates the story to a national level of
discussion,=94 said Leanne Hathcock, librarian and founder of the
symposium. It was her research, along with the help of North
Carolina resident Scott Ramsey, that led to a renaissance of
interest in the purported crash in March 1948 in Hart Canyon
north of Aztec. Ramsey has completed countless hours of research
and successfully declassified material pertinent to the
incident. =93We=92re working very hard in trying to identify two law
enforcement officers at the scene, and at the same time trying
to be respectful to the families,=94 Ramsey said. New Mexico and
UFOs have become synonymous since the surging popularity of the
Roswell crash in July 1947, but Aztec is coming into its own,
according to Hathcock and Ramsey. =93I think the documentary puts
Aztec in a positive light,=94 Ramsey said. The film begins with a
view of San Juan County=92s high desert landscape and film
producer Paul Kimball telling the story of Aztec.

It was a quiet evening north of the county seat, when an oil
well fire broke out on a mesa above Hart Canyon. The fire led
people to something much more interesting =97 a crashed UFO
containing charred bodies, Kimball tells in the story Ramsey
continually attempts to verify. Snip http://www.daily-
times.com/artman/publish/article_13519.shtml

Nevada - UFOs Pass Jets

FALLON - The witness lives on the Fallon Paiute-Shoshone Indian
Reservation about 4 miles north of the runway of the Naval Air
Station Fallon. This is where they do the Top Gun training made
famous by the Tom Cruise movie of the same name. We are 65 miles
east of Reno. The witness was trying to get pictures of jets
flying east over his house when he saw two UFOs flying west at
11:50 AM, on August 25, 2004.

The witness states, "I heard them and ran outside, but I just
missed them in the zoom lens, when I looked up directly overhead
I saw two round saucer-like objects that actually looked like
the 'logo' from Japan Airlines and I know this sounds crazy but
it looked like a Star Trek Klingon Vessel with a see through
ring around it." There was actually a white "glow"around them.
One of them was doing loops around the other. I called for my
wife to come out and she saw them flying circles around each
other as they faded from view. I've seen standard military jets
all my life and these were not those! Thanks to DK N.U.F.O.G.
http://users.oasisol.com/nufog/

California - Erratic Flying Objects

RIDGECREST - At 9:05 PM, the observer saw a satellite moving in
a southeasterly direction on August 9, 2004. The object made a
"S" turn and a loop before disappearing into the horizon. The
object was white in color, flying extremely high and moving
fast. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director

LOS ANGELES - My wife and I were driving south on Highway 5 on
August 9, 2004, at five minutes to midnight between Stockton and
Bakersfield. At 23:55 pm, I noticed a white light that I assumed
was an airplane climbing at a steep 45 angle as during take off.
The craft then changed direction and dove toward the ground at a
45 degree angle, stopping five feet from the ground and
hovering. The craft was about 200 feet away from us across the
north bound lanes. The craft was shaped like a Stingray with
three white lights on the top. My wife first saw the maneuvers
and the stingray shape with three white lights. Two were at the
outside flippers and one light was at the nose in front. My wife
heard a jet engine making acceleration and deceleration noises,
but I did not hear them. The craft was the size of a normal
passenger car. Other cars in the north bound lanes got a better
view. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.hbccufo.com

Washington - Flying Triangle

SOAP LAKE (SUN LAKES STATE PARK) Highly credible individuals
reported: I did not believe in UFO's until this event. The
object was a large triangle. We could not see the craft, only
the lights. There was a bright white light on each corner of the
craft. It had to be one unit as the lights stayed in the same
formation as it moved from north and then south across the night
sky. I lost sight of it after about 5 minutes as it appeared to
move into space. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.hbccufo.com

Mexico - Six UFOs

TAPACHULA - Six luminous spheres flew over the Mexicanos Pemex
Petroleum Storage Facilities on August 29, 2004. The Disaster
Prevention Officer, Juan Carlos Zu=F1iga Rodr=EDguez said, "Six
large spheres having the shape of a circular plate, the size of
a commercial airliner, performed flight maneuvers over the
distribution terminal at an altitude no greater than 1000 meters
flying at abnormal speeds and direction changes." A variety of
photographs were taken and showed at least six luminous spheres
flying over the area. This data was presented to researcher
Jaime Maussan, who immediately commenced verification of the
images. He stated. "The tests yielded positive results regarding
a central object made of unidentified material, and which
appeared to be covered by some sort of radiation very similar to
that of the spheres." UFOs are frequently seen around the oil
facilities and points adjacent to the Izapa archaeological
region, close to where the "Tree of Life, Creation of the
Universe" stele is located. Thanks to Scott Corrales, Institute
of Hispanic Ufology for the translation (c) 2004

Canada - Disc

NIAGARA (ST CATHARINES) - I want to report a UFO sighting in the
Niagara Falls region on Monday August 30, 2004, around 11PM, I
was on the piers in Port Dalhousie fishing when I noticed a
white and purple rectangular shaped craft over St. Catharines. I
first noticed the UFO when it appeared to be over Lake Street
heading east at extremely fast speeds. It went from the Lake
street area to south of Port Weller in 4 to 5 seconds at a
descending angle stopping at maybe 800 to 1000 feet. It then
performed unbelievable movements up , down and right and left
eventually descending south and appeared to land in the region
close to the Niagara Airport. Although, there was an air show
last weekend, this was nothing close. Thanks to Jim Hickman
Executive Director Skywatch International Inc.

VANCOUVER ISLAND - Phil George writes, "The photograph was taken
a couple of weeks ago in the Sooke area of Vancouver Island
using my Nikon Coolpix 5700." I saw nothing in the sky when I
took it, and saw it later when I uploaded the photographs to my
laptop. It is not in any other photographs. My wife and kids
did not see anything either. It was the middle of the day. It
is not a bird, even at this quality of image this camera can
pick out a seagull at 400 feet! I shot around 700 pictures no
other photo displays anything like this. Thanks to Phil George

England - Oval UFO

MANCHESTER - The observer was sitting in the garden and heard a
loud airplane noise on August 7, 2004, at 3:30 PM, but was
unable to see anything at first, then he noticed a silver, oval
shaped aircraft overhead. The oval was going at quite a speed,
realizing it couldn't possibly be an aero plane. The object
carried on flying, then suddenly stopped, hovered for a few
seconds, then, darted very fast to the left and hovered for a
while. It then went right and went back to where it had started
and then just vanished. It was an extremely clear day with not a
cloud in the sky, so the whole incident was very clear to see.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.hbccufo.com

Philippines - Red UFOs

LAS PINAS CITY - Two unusual reddish-metallic-glares were
observed flying east across partly cloudy skies. Another two,
followed by three more - appearing from above the western
horizon. This unusual sighting could not be mere airplanes,
according to 11 year old Nica Canarias, since two of those were
seen heading close to the surface of the moon. Nica, the eldest
of the three Canarias=92 siblings who were among the early
witnesses, immediately commanded her younger brother, Bien
Canarias to summon 9-year old Adrian Israel, a close neighbor
whom the kids knew well as a UFO experiencer, whose father
Antonio (Tony), incidentally had taken a video footage of UFOs
in Las Pi=F1as from an earlier encounter dating - September 3,
2000. As the elder Jose was pointing to the object his father
Tony took his video camera and taped them. Tony was joined by
other neighbors who observed the objects moving erratically,
jerking, floating and jumping in different directions between
7:30 till 8:15 PM, Tony was taking video footages of 5 UFOs as
each passed by over the horizon at time intervals of
approximately 8 minutes per object, following one after the
other. This news is being featured over TV PATROL (August 30,
2004) Thanks to Tony Israel, 4 Mabolo St., Pamplona, Las Pi=F1as
City.

Google Turns Author Over To Critic - Chilling Effect

Author Robert Trundle writes, "Google declares how fair it is
and how much it eschews censorship. For example, an image of
Robert Trundle=92s book UFOs: Politics, God & Science is posted at
Images. The Image site tells Robert that if a copyright owner
wants an image removed to follow the simple instructions by
sending a detailed letter. The letter is sent because it seems
unfair that the image refers to a website that ridicules his
book and other book images are not shown that refer to websites
where it is not ridiculed . Then, Google displays the other
images of the book where it is not ridiculed. And then it takes
the images off except for the original image and sends the
author an email that states the original image cannot be
removed. This seems like a form of censorship so the author
challenges that claim. Bingo, not only does the original image
alone remain but his letter gets posted on the website with the
alarmist headline Author Asks Google To Remove Link to Critic -
Chilling Effects ... Not only does the word =93Link=94 conflate the
terms =93image=94 and =93website=94 =97 misleading the reader to suppose
that the author is a mean spirited scoundrel who wants to
suppress his open-minded critics when in fact he was not
requesting that his critic=92s website be deleted but only the
image when other images were censored.

In addition, the website gives the false impression that the
anonymity of its victim is protected, on the outside chance
there may be facts about which it is unaware, by blocking out
the author=92s name on the letter sent to Google. But the author=92s
name, of course, is exposed under the headline. And in reply to
the author=92s further complaint that Google=92s removal
instructions make no mention of turning the author=92s letter over
to Chilling Effects, Google replies how fair it is by asserting
falsely that it does refer to that website: Whoops, to a =93third
party.=94 The moral of the story is that a UFO debunker who links
a silliness of religious belief to a belief in UFOs, in a UFO
magazine no less, gets publicity while the author unfairly gets
censored in a major news media organization. Come to think of
it, this is really no news. Thanks to Robert Trundle Ph.D.

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list the date of issue. These reports and comments are not
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   Sep > Sep 2

             CCCRN News: Formation Report #10 - Calgary, Alberta

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:49:49 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 09:15:08 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Formation Report #10 - Calgary, Alberta


CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

September 1, 2004

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


FORMATION REPORT #10 - CALGARY, ALBERTA

Unusual oval ring in pasture grass, found August 26.
Approximately 14.5 metres (48 feet) by 12 metres (36 feet). In
Nose Hill Park, a large nature park of natural grasses and
terrain, the formation is on one of the highest points of Nose
Hill itself. Grass is flattened in various directions in the
narrow approximately 0.3 metre (1 foot) wide ring, including
straight across the width, with the ring itself well-defined.
Ring surrounds a large white rock roughly in the centre which
appears to be part of the natural landscape, not just placed
there. Initial ground photos and survey diagram are posted on
the web site. Investigation in progress by CCCRN Alberta. This
is the tenth reported formation for 2004.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an e-mail with either
Subscribe CCCRN News or Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the subject
line to: cccrnnews.nul

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, media
and scientists

c. CCCRN, 2004








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             Re: 'Gobsmacked' UFO Skeptic Turned Believer - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:09:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 09:21:15 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Gobsmacked' UFO Skeptic Turned Believer - King


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:48:40 EDT
>Subject: 'Gobsmacked' UFO Skeptic Turned Believer

>http://www.miltonkeynestoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=3D415&Articl=
eID=3D847401

>This story is a double riot for me. First of all it has the
>expression "Gobsmacked" in it. I first heard that one from good
>ol' Alfred Lehmberg over at Jeff Rense's forum where I moderate.
>I had to call back home to the hill folk to find out what
>'Gobsmacked' meant. They had to dig up one of the old folks who
>still remembered!

>"Well I'll be gobsmacked iffin' you ain't heard of bein'
>'gobsmacked'!" was one reply.

>Never-the-less - AP Stylebook forgive me - this story is about a
>skeptic - spelled sceptic in the article - who ran into his own
>encounter.

>["Gobsmacked" - As in struck dumb/dumbstruck - Northern English
> expression. As in Python's "Shut yer festering gob, you tit!"
> Gob =3D mouth. 'Sceptic' is English spelling as is the newspaper
> above - as in English came before 'Murikan' --ebk]

Errol,

Several of my friends from the UK used a term I thought was
"Godsmacked". When I went looking for it, I discovered gobsmacked.
A wonderful word, and so descriptive. I'm still troubled however
by the phantom "i" you guys put in a cool word like alumin[i]um.
:)

Greg,

The article you cite is most notable for its final paragraph:


[Begin Quote]

After analyzing the image, he said: "It could have been any
number of things -- a very powerful meteorite which may have
seemed close but was miles away, a form of lightning, or a
reflection on his windscreen.

"It's very difficult to say exactly what it is, but it's
certainly not a UFO.

"There are plenty of natural explanations."

[End Quote]

Dr. Ulrich Kolb is an "astronomy expert". Is that the same as an
astronomer? At any rate, for him to make statements like, "It
could have been any number of things" and "It's very difficult to
say exactly what it is", it seems rather rash to then state...
"but it's certainly not a UFO".

While I am neither an astronomer nor an astronomy expert, I
fully expect that when a scientist (or expert) feels compelled
to say that he has no idea what he is seeing (unidentified), he
would be foolish to add that it is "certainly not a UFO". In
fact, everything he said up to that point was asserting his
uncertainty.

Appears to be an example of what is referred to here as a
pelicanist?

And are astronomers in the UK referred to as astronomy experts,
or is this guy (Kolb) just in possession of a lot of books about
the planets to go along with his over-zealous s[c]epticism, or
was the writer just sloppy in his description?

Doesn't appear to be enough data to form much of an hypothesis,
certainly not one of such a contradictory nature. I wonder what
the formerly sceptical sightee thought of Mr. Kolb's assessment?


Best Regards,

Kyle









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                 Re: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'? - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:18:06 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 09:29:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'? - Balaskas


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:59:40 -0700
>Subject: Re: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'?

>>From: William Wise <w.wise.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 14:03:23 -0400
>>Subject: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'?

>>When reading through Blue Book case files one often runs
>>across statements much like the following:

>>"Venus appears low on the horizon at this time of year and is
>>unusually bright; it is possible for it to appear to change
>>color and perform erratic maneuvers when seen through thin
>>clouds or ground haze."

Hi William and Larry!

For four years I observed and measured the astronomical seeing
conditions from the Red Sea coastal Asir Mountians and the
desert interior of Saudi Arabia for their proposed national
observatory project. It is not true that thin clouds or ground
haze is responsible for Venus' erratic maneuvers and changes in
colour (and also the changes in its brightness or twinkling)
when it appears low on the horizon. It is the temperature
gradients, or more accurately, the changing densities of the air
masses that Venus is observed through that produces these
effects. Sometimes this effect is very pronounced that Venus (or
other bright object in the night sky) could easily be mistaken
for a distant moving aircraft or a UFO.

>>It would be interesting to observe video of Venus under such
>>conditions to better understand and appreciate how astronomical
>>phenomena under unusual conditions can lead to their
>>misidentification. This would be true for other unusual
>>phenomena such as sun dogs, moon dogs, and relatively slow
>>moving bollides as well.

>>Venus being the most predictable of these phenomena I assume it
>>would be the easiest to capture on tape during the sort of
>>conditions that would give rise to misidentification as a UFO.

>>If any such video is available a link would be most welcome.

>Yes! Such videos should be easily made, but I don't know where
>to find them.

Such videos of Venus low on the horizon may be hard to find, but
similar videos of other astronomical objects as well as distant
aircraft and tall structures are much more common. Some of these
videos which seem to show orbs of light zigzagging back and
forth along the horizon across Lake Ontario which I have seen in
person and on the Internet were often aircraft landing or taking
off from one of the New York state airports just below the
horizon.

A few years ago while looking across Lake Ontario towards
Toronto from the Niagara peninsula I saw what seemed to be a
long bridge low along the horizon that seemed to span the entire
lake. When I looked through my binoculars I was shocked to see
two identical images of the downtown Toronto skyline. One image
was inverted and hanging directly over the city with the tops of
the buildings of both images nearly touching. This is the same
phenomenon when a road that ends at the horizon seems to be
broken or wet and oncoming distant cars seem to be inverted (a
mirage seen only under ideal conditions).

>I'm bothered by the statement " Venus appears low on the horizon
>at this time of year and is unusually bright.. "

>Venus' position and brightness depend on the relative positions
>of Earth, Venus and the Sun, all in relation to one another.
> While easily predicted with simple astronomical programs, "this
>time of year" gives the false impression it depends on the
>Earthly calendar alone .. as if Venus were a fixed star.

>It would be interesting to know who originally came up with that
>jewel. One might then look at his other arguments.

A couple of times a years Venus will be far away from the Sun in
the sky - occasions when it is also at its brightest (the third
brightest celestial object in the sky after the Sun and Moon).
When seen under the dark night skies on these occasions, as
opposed to the majority of times when planet Venus is much
fainter and seen in the brighter dawn or dusk skies very close
to the Sun, it is an very impressive sight and infrequent
observers of the sky can easily mistaken it as a UFO.

What many of us are not aware of is that, like the Moon, Venus
and the much brighter planets and stars are also visible in the
clear blue daytime sky when the Sun is also present. One just
needs to know where to look. I suspect that a few of the
daylight UFOs caught on video as seen in Brian Vike's hbccufo
web site by witnesses trying out their new zillion power zoom
cameras are indeed real extraterrestrial objects - planets and
bright stars!


Nick Balaskas








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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:52:07 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 09:50:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:38:53 -0300
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:58:00 +0100
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>I haven't found any cases
>>which seem inexplicable, except those for which the information
>>is insufficient or unreliable. There have also been some very
>intriguing hoaxes and I find it amusing that so many ufologists
>>are in denial about these stories being false, even when the
>>evidence is compelling.

>The above is truly an extraordinary claim and frankly nonsense.
>The professonals at Battelle Memorial Institute who prepared
>"Blue Book Special Report No. 14" (Copy available, but beware,
>it is loaded with data) found that they had to label 689 of the
>3201 cases (21.5%) they examined as UNKNOWN completely separate
>and distinct from the 298 (9.3%) which they listed as
>INSUFFICIENT INFORMATION.

<snip>

>Frankly it would appear to be straight balderdash that there are
>no cases with sufficient information that were unexplainable,
>and that the problem was poor quality.

>I suppose one solution as to how you could make such an
>extraordinary claim, backed by no data, is that you have only
>looked at a few poor cases and have rushed to judgement by
>extrapolation to a grandiose claim.

The problem here is not with the statistics but with how they
are interpreted. It should be noted that the conclusions reached
by the compilers of Project Blue Book Special Report No. 14 do
not agree with Stan's interpretation, as they were obviously not
very impressed with the results of their studies. The last three
paragraphs of their Conclusions are:

"It is emphasized that there was a complete lack of any valid
evidence consisting of physical matter in any case of a reported
unidentified aerial object.

"Thus, the probability that any of the UNKNOWNS considered in
this study are "flying saucers" is concluded to be extremely
small, since the most complete and reliable reports from the
present data, when isolated and studied, conclusively failed to
reveal even a rough model, and since the data as a whole failed
to reveal any marked patterns or trends.

"Therefore, on the basis of this evaluation of the information,
it is considered to be highly improbable that any of the reports
of unidentified aerial objects examined in this study represent
observations of technological developments outside the range of
present-day scientific knowledge."


John Harney








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                         Re: NIDS FT Report - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:00:46 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 10:13:45 -0400
Subject: Re: NIDS FT Report - Boone


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 06:15:24 -0700
>Subject: NIDS FT Report

>I don't know if anybody mentioned this earlier, but Colm
>Kelleher has put out a a darned good study on so-called Flying
>Triangles.

>It shows some very nice maps and text, and even mentions my
>work. Naturally, I find that more interesting than some other
>threads.

>http://www.nidsci.org/articles/8_25trireport.php

That's some awesome map work there and thanks for the link
Larry.

Having seen these aircraft on several occasions and up close at
that and having reported so publicly all I can say is I found my
answers from a good friend of high standing who was there on one
occasion.

So in regard to the flying triangles/boomerangs/crescents I'll
not comment on them anymore. LLSS  :)


Best,

Greg










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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:31:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 10:24:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:28:39 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:58:00 +0100
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>I have not changed my views at all; I have always adopted a
>>logical and consistent approach to the subject, though I must
>>admit that in the early years I was sometimes a little too
>>credulous.

>"Logical"? "Consistent"? How about "orthodoxy-affirming at any
>cost"? About that, anyway, you have been consistent. "Credulous"
>I take to mean what other people would judge mere open-
>mindedness, a posture of which no one will hold you guilty
>anymore. So you can relax, John. Nobody thinks your head holds
>any heretical thoughts.

I have already said that I do not have any fixed ideas as to
what Arnold did or did not see; I merely said that I thought the
various theories should be seriously debated, and not just
rejected out of hand if they seemed likely to lead to a mundane
conclusion.

>>I have already explained that Arnold's report was extraordinary
>>because he estimated that the objects were travelling at
>>supersonic speeds. As you will probably agree that they were not
>>meteors, then such a sighting can reasonably be described as
>>extraordinary. It's really quite simple and logical, so I don't
>>know why you are making it seem so difficult.

>Sightings of fast-moving, structured-looking phenomena that do
>not appear to be earthly aircraft are far from extraordinary.
>They are quite ordinary in human experience and comprise a
>significant number of the totality of UFO reports. What's so
>difficult about conceding that rather obvious point?

I don't agree. For example, we have the Chiles-Whitted bolide
described as being "structured" - having windows, etc. This sort
of misperception is not uncommon.

>>The sightings are generally not extraordinary, but the claims
>>made about them by many ufologists certainly are.

>Not only by ufologists, but by pelicanists and other extremists.
>Somehow, though, the latter psychosocial response to the
>phenomenon manages not to attract the attention or interest of
>self-described psychosociologists. Strange, that. Of course it
>is always painful to have to subject one's own favored beliefs
>to skeptical scrutiny.

What are these "extraordinary claims" made by "pelicanists and
other extremists"? Do you mean when they dare to suggest that
some of your favourite UFO stories are hoaxes or misperceptions,
or that the accounts given by witnesses perhaps may not have
been entirely accurate?

>I must say it is depressing, though I admit hardly surprising,
>to find that pelicanists even in 2004 are reduced to the
>hoariest and most dim- witted of cliches: that UFOs exist only
>because people haven't investigated them or uncovered the proper
>information.  Does being a pelicanist mean you don't have to
>heed demonstrable contrary facts and evidence anymore? But then,
>since UFOs don't exist, why bother with inconvenient detail?

To say something is a UFO is merely to say that it remains
unexplained, or that explanations offered are considered
unsatisfactory. However, you seem to imply that there is
something which unknown reports have in common so that one day
some new class of object or phenomenon will be revealed and
acknowledged by scientists, and everyone else, this being what
we now call a UFO. I don't happen to share that view.

>Yet another dreary cliche: "sell books." As we all know, UFO
>books sell like hot cakes, at least in the lurid imaginations of
>pelicanists if not in prosaic market reality. In the same way,
>"true anomaly" on the cover of a book guarantees multiple
>printings and fat royalty checks. Great argument, John.

The spurious air of mystery which most UFO authors try to
generate by going on about "true anomalies", etc. may not sell
many copies, but it is apparently needed to persuade publishers
to accept their books.

>John informs us, in all due ponderous, that he "hasn't found any
>cases which seem inexplicable, except those for which the
>information is insufficient or unreliable." Lack of sufficient,
>reliable information is not a problem in well-investigated,
>well- documented cases, but lack of rational argumentation in
>pelicanist discourse, where insufficient or unreliable
>information (not to mention freewheeling speculation) seems
>always at the core (why let evidence get in the way of
>guesswork?), is. As we see demonstrated yet again.

Lack of reliable information _is_ a problem, and many reports
are not properly investigated, usually because of lack of
sufficient funds and resources. If you want an example of
unreliable information and sloppy investigation you have only to
read about the initial investigations of the Trindade case - the
questions not asked, the implausible details not queried, or
just ignored, and so on.

>Besides the dreary cliche - that reports remain unsolved
>because UFOs don't exist and therefore more information, never
>mind the mass of same that already exists, would bring the pesky
>heresy to ground - John has nothing but a tautology to offer
>us, to wit:

>Why are there unsolved UFO reports? Because there is
>insufficient or unreliable information. How do we know the
>information is insufficient or unreliable? Because there are
>unsolved UFO reports.

This might sound silly, but it is the result of UFO believers
not having a testable hypothesis, that is a theory that most
unsolved UFO reports have something in common, which could be
identified by using the right investigative methods or
statistical techniques.


John Harney








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              UFO Crash Retrieval Conference Hits Las Vegas Nov

From: Ryan S. Wood <majesticdocuments.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:04:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 10:28:48 -0400
Subject: UFO Crash Retrieval Conference Hits Las Vegas Nov


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Ufo Crash Retrieval Conference Hits Las Vegas November 12-14

BROOMFIELD, CO - September 1, 2004 -- Father and Son team of
Ryan S. Wood and Dr. Robert M. Wood proudly announce the 2nd
Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference, the world's only public
event dedicated exclusively to compelling evidence of crash
retrievals. The conference takes place Friday evening, November
12 through Sunday afternoon, November 14 at the Sunset Station
Hotel and Casino in Henderson, Nevada, just outside Las Vegas.
Details are available on www.ufoconference.com

Last year's first-ever Crash Retrieval Conference was a huge
success, with 15 speakers, over 200 people in attendance, a
sold-out banquet and a live broadcast of Coast to Coast AM from
the hotel. This year's event promises to be even better.

The exceptional speaker lineup includes Stephen Bassett, Grant
Cameron, Paul Davids, Linda Moulton Howe, Don Ledger, Jim Marrs,
Dr. David Pace, Nick Redfern, Peter Robbins, Dr. Bob Wood and
Ryan S. Wood, plus three short presentations by surprise guests.

Friday evening kicks off with a meet-the-speakers open bar event
and panel discussion. Lectures run all day Saturday and Sunday,
with a gala banquet and keynote address Saturday evening.
Lecture abstracts follow:

Stephen Bassett: Truth Retrieval: Message to the President Elect

Eleven days after the 2004 presidential election, Stephen
Bassett will declare in his banquet keynote address that the
politics of disclosure, exo-politics and the requirements of
real intelligence reform directly challenge the hidden core of
an evolving governmental dysfunction that threatens the nation.
Crash retrievals began in the 1940's; cover-up followed. Six
decades later, it is time for truth retrieval; and as of
November 2, 2004, that becomes the job of the President Elect.
Who will demand this of the elected administration? What has to
be done? What is at stake?

Grant Cameron: The Presidents and the Hard Evidence (in 2 parts)

U.S. presidents knew about UFO crash retrievals right from the
start and took steps to cover up the evidence. Grant Cameron
will discuss the revelations of Wilbert Smith, head of
Canada's Project Magnet; and intelligence officer Arthur
Lundahl, who reportedly communicated with a captured alien in
1959 and is intimately associated with the recently disclosed
Majestic documents. Grant will also discuss the role of
presidents in the post Blue Book era, including Nixon's
connection to sensational UFO film footage shot at Holloman Air
Force Base.

Paul Davids: The Road to Roswell -- A Primer of Undisputed
Facts and Factual Disputes

How does one navigate the morass of competing versions of "The
Truth" in books, documentaries and government reports that are
designed to cut off inquiry into the Roswell Incident and
declare "CASE CLOSED"? How does one choose sides between
"authorities" who are at odds with one another and even at each
other's throats? Paul Davids will describe the minefield that
every truth-seeker must traverse on the Road to Roswell, laying
out the facts and factual disputes in order to show why this
case stands for many as "Ground Zero" in the Great UFO Debate.

Linda Moulton Howe: UFO Crash Retrievals and America=C2=B9s Policy
of Denial in the Interest of National Security

For 25 years as a TV producer and investigative reporter, Linda
Howe has sought to determine what the U.S. government learned
about entities and technologies from UFO crash retrievals that
provoked an American policy of misinformation and denial since
at least 1947, even as the government and corporations were
back-engineering the very technologies they deny exist. Linda
will discuss microbiologist Dan Burisch, Ph.D., who in 2002 came
forward to whistle-blow about his work for Majestic-12
concerning an "extraterrestrial biological entity" at Area 51 S-
4/5, Nellis AFB, that allegedly was retrieved from the Kingman,
Arizona UFO crash in May 1953.

Don Ledger: The Shag Harbour Incident

On October 4, 1967, multiple witnesses reported the crash of an
object into the waters near Shag Harbour on the southern tip of
Nova Scotia. There followed rescue attempts by the RCMP and
local fishermen, and subsequent attempts by the Canadian navy to
find the object on the bottom over a 4-day period, all covered
extensively in the daily news. But a stranger part of the saga
came to light only years later. The object apparently traveled
some 23 miles under water to the mouth of Shelburne Harbour and
settled offshore near a top-secret base at Government Point. Don
Ledger will share information received from Army, Navy and Air
Force personnel present at the time who say that military divers
observed and photographed not one but two objects resting in
some 80 feet of water, one object evidently lending aid to the
other.

Jim Marrs: Aurora, Texas UFO Crash

Investigative journalist and author Jim Marrs explores the
events of April 19, 1897, when a slow moving =E2=80=9Cspace ship=E2=80=9D
crashed into a windmill and burst into pieces. Examination of
the debris supposedly revealed the body of a small alien as well
as material sketched with a type of hieroglyphic. The town folk
gave the poor creature a proper burial in the local cemetery.
Jim will provide startling new evidence for this early UFO case.

Dr. David Pace: Inside the USSR Majestic 12 Program

Dr. Pace will discuss his experiences with the Soviet UFO
hierarchy, scientific and medical as well as governmental,
including the USSR's analog to Majestic 12. The talk will
encompass Soviet/Russian UFO crash retrievals and perspective on
reverse science and engineering, along with Dr. Pace's
firsthand knowledge of the Soviet version of Area 51 and his
unique insights into US-USSR coordination and communications
around UFO events and technology. A true first for Ufology.

Nick Redfern: UFO Crashes: An Illustrated History

The author of 3 best-selling books on UFOs, Nick Redfern will
present an accounting of the many and varied crash retrieval
cases reported throughout the world during the past century.
Besides such well-known cases as Roswell and Kecksburg, Nick
will cover seldom-discussed UFO incidents from China, the former
Soviet Union, Africa, South America, Germany, Australia and the
United States, in order to provide a firm appreciation for what
is arguably the most compelling aspect of the UFO mystery.

Peter Robbins: The Rendlesham Forest UFO Incident

Twenty-four years after the fact, England's Bentwaters-
Woodbridge UFO Incident (AKA the Rendlesham Forest Incident)
still stands as the United Kingdom's seminal UFO event. While no
serious allegations of a crash were involved, the British
Ministry of Defence and U.S. Air Force went to great lengths to
downplay the mysterious events. Peter Robbins, co-author with
Larry Warren of the 1997 British bestseller Left At East Gate,
will present a detailed account of the original incident, then
review key updates in the case, including the release of
hundreds of pages of government documents, memos and other
evidence.

Dr. Bob Wood: Correlating Leonard Stringfield's Crash/Retrieval
Reports

Leonard H. Stringfield was known for his meticulous interviews
and his strict word of honor about protecting witness identity.
His records of crash retrievals are extensively detailed in 8
published documents (the 1977 book "Situation Red-The UFO
Siege", and UFO Crash/Retrieval Status Reports 1-7, ending in
1994). What is missing is a clear summary of what one can
conclude from this large database; and this is what Dr. Wood
will offer in his talk. Multiple reports apparently cover the
same C/R event, and numerous subtle corroborating statements by
unrelated witnesses lend credence to many cases. Dr. Wood will
address the bottom line questions, "How many crash retrievals
actually occurred, and what are the implications for today?"

Ryan S. Wood: Murder and MJ-12: Convenient Deaths in Support of
UFO Secrecy

At first glance, one might not think that murder would be
practiced in the name of UFO secrecy. But the data suggests
otherwise. Ryan Wood will present a catalog of notable and
questionable deaths, including details of how each person died
and the probability against chance. Some potential targets were
famous - Oppenheimer, Einstein, possibly even JFK -- while
others were lesser known though no less significant, such as
virologist Robert Green and John Murphy, the Kecksburg UFO crash
reporter.

See:

http://www.ufoconference.com/ufo_conference_registration.php

for conference registration and further information. Make hotel
reservations early to ensure the special conference rate of $89
per night: call the Sunset Station Hotel, 888-786-7389.

This conference promises to be a breakthrough event, providing
fresh and eye-opening insights into the UFO enigma. We look
forward to seeing you in Las Vegas.

RYAN S. WOOD
rswood.nul
Phone: 720-887-8239
Mail: 14004 Quail Ridge Drive
Broomfield, CO 80020









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   Sep > Sep 2

                   SETI Signal From 1,000 Light Years Away

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:31:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 10:35:16 -0400
Subject: SETI Signal From 1,000 Light Years Away


I figure by the time this gets posted, if it gets posted, the news
about the latest SETI.nul discovery will be big news and
numerous posts will be arriving.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14594417%26method=full%26siteid=89
488%26headline=space%2dcall%2dfrom%2det-name_page.html

Space Call From ET

Sep 2 2004

ALIEN messages may have been found in a bizarre radio signal.

Astronomers have recorded three incidences of the space signal -
totalling one minute.

They think it is from an ET after ruling out known
interference or objects as the source.

The signal, called SHGbo2+14a, comes between Pisces and Aries,
where there is no obvious planetary system for 1000 light years.

It was found by the Search For Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence
team, who run search programs as screensavers on millions of
home computers.

California University researcher Eric Korpela believes the
'message' is real.

He said: 'I can't think of any way to fake it.'








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                          Secrecy News -- 09/01/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:56:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 10:38:08 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 09/01/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 78
September 1, 2004


**      A TALE OF TWO INTERROGATION MANUALS
**      CRUISE MISSILE DEFENSE (CRS)
**      EMP AND MICROWAVE WEAPONS (CRS)
**      MORE CRS PRODUCTS
**      OPEN ACCESS TO GOVT HEALTH RESEARCH URGED


A TALE OF TWO INTERROGATION MANUALS

Some of the abuses that were committed against prisoners
detained by U.S. forces in Iraq may have derived from
conflicting guidance and from improper reliance on an outdated
interrogation manual, the Washington Post reported this week.

The manual that was supposed to be in effect was U.S. Army Field
Manual 34-52 of 28 September 1992. A copy of this document is
now available here in a very large 14.5 MB PDF file (thanks to
S):

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm34-52.pdf

But instead, Army officials issued guidance based on an earlier and
in some ways more permissive edition of the same manual, dated 8
May 1987, the Post reported. That edition is available from
GlobalSecurity.org here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/policy/army/fm/fm34-52/

For the context, see "Documents Helped Sow Abuse, Army Report
Finds" by R. Jeffrey Smith, Washington Post, August 30:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45319-2004Aug29.html

By classifying certain portions of its investigation, the
Defense Department may have improperly shielded some high-level
officials from scrutiny, Human Rights First charged in a news
release this week. See:

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/2004_alerts/0831.htm


CRUISE MISSILE DEFENSE (CRS)

The status of Defense Department efforts to develop defenses
against cruise missiles is addressed in a new report from the
Congressional Research Service.

"Congress directed DOD to undertake BMD [ballistic missile
defense] and CMD [cruise missile defense] efforts in a mutually
supportive fashion," the CRS notes.

But "Some argue that Pentagon efforts on CMD have taken a back
seat to BMD efforts," the report says understatedly.

See "Cruise Missile Defense," updated August 27, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RS21921.pdf


EMP AND MICROWAVE WEAPONS (CRS)

The military threat posed by microwave weapons is often
presented without a careful examination of its plausibility,
feasibility and likelihood.

A recent commission report to Congress may have encouraged such
credulousness, and it is reflected in a new report from the
Congressional Research Service.

The CRS relies in part on a highly speculative article on non-
nuclear microwave weapons by one Carlo Kopp which, observes
George Smith of GlobalSecurity.org, is open to question.

"There is absolutely no evidence that such a weapon works or
that it even can be built the way the [Kopp] piece implies that
it can," Dr. Smith said. "No such e-bomb has ever been
demonstrated in over eleven years, which is when this article
was first published."

See "High Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse (HEMP) and High Power
Microwave (HPM) Devices: Threat Assessments," Congressional
Research Service, August 20, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32544.pdf


MORE CRS PRODUCTS

Direct public access to Congressional Research Service reports
is not permitted by the current congressional leadership. But
the following reports are newly available nevertheless.

"9/11 Commission Recommendations: Joint Committee on Atomic
Energy -- A Model for Congressional Oversight?" August 20, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32538.pdf

"The Multi-State Anti-Terrorism Information Exchange (MATRIX)
Pilot Project," August 18, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32536.pdf

"Aviation Security-Related Findings and Recommendations of the
9/11 Commission," August 24, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32541.pdf

"Emergency Communications: The Emergency Alert System (EAS) and
All-Hazard Warnings," August 13, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32527.pdf

"9/11 Commission Recommendations: A Civil Liberties Oversight
Board," August 9, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS21906.pdf

"The Information Quality Act: OMB's Guidance and Initial
Implementation," August 19, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RL32532.pdf


OPEN ACCESS TO GOVT HEALTH RESEARCH URGED

In an open letter to Congress last week, two dozen Nobel
laureates called for free, online public access to the results
of government-funded research in health and medicine.

"There is widespread acknowledgement that the current model for
scientific publishing is failing us," the Nobelists wrote. "An
increase in the volume of research output, rising prices and
static library budgets mean that libraries are struggling to
purchase subscriptions to all the scientific journals needed."

"As scientists and taxpayers too, we ... object to barriers that
hinder, delay or block the spread of scientific knowledge
supported by federal tax dollars -- including our own works."

See their August 26 letter here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2004/08/nobel082604.pdf

A new coalition of scientists, researchers, and others such as
the Association of Research Libraries has formed to advance the
cause of open access to government-funded research. For more
information, see:

http://www.taxpayeraccess.org/



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691








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   Sep > Sep 2

               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:41:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 10:39:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:46:45 +0000
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:38:53 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:58:00 +0100
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>Frankly it would appear to be straight balderdash that there are
>>no cases with sufficient information that were unexplainable,
>>and that the problem was poor quality.

>The standard, boilerplate assertion (without supportive
>evidence) that there are no truly anomalous UFOs, only
>insufficient data to find a mundane explanation, is part of the
>skeptibunker credo. At NICAP we had rigorous criteria for
>screening and investigating reports. We routinely ran checks for
>satellites, fireball meteors, advertising aircraft, balloons,
>strobe lights...and also considered the `strangeness' of the
>individual case and the abilities and character of the
>witnesses.

>We could explain quite a few cases, many were borderline and not
>very impressive, and then there were (and are) the truly
>anomalous reports (the "unknowns") that are richly deserving of
>far more scientific attention. These cases show strong patterns
>of appearance and performance. Note the heavy emphasis on
>investigation. Many self-styled ufologists are clownishly short
>on investigation and long on pseudoscience, but that does not
>mean that there are no TRUFOS.

NICAP's files are now housed with CUFOS in Chicago. I am
intimately familiar with them because I drew on them extensively
while I was researching The UFO Encyclopedia. Let me put it this
way:

Dick is exactly right. NICAP did it right. As Jim McDonald had
occasion to observe, NICAP's investigations were typically a
considerable improvement on the Air Force's. I didn't really
appreciate or understand that until I saw the research files
with my own four eyes and studied them myself. That experience
was a real eye-opener, in the entirely positive sense. NICAP's
investigations and the resulting research reports set the gold
standard.


Jerry Clark










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                      Julian Hennessey Invisible Asset

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 6:14:20 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 10:51:11 -0400
Subject: Julian Hennessey Invisible Asset



I have written a detailed biography of the ufological
accomplishments of Julian Hennessey, an undervalued character
from ufological history.

He made a major contribution to ufology, mainly in the UK, but
he also made significant contributions across the Atlantic.

The article can be read at:

http://www.ufology.org.uk/article_read.asp?id=174


Regards,

Joe








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                      Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:28:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 10:57:09 -0400
Subject: Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch


Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:49:45 -0500
From: Damien Broderick <thespike.nul>
 To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat.nul>
Subj: FWD [extropy-chat] zero point fields, Bernard Haisch and, gulp, more


Here's something kinda zany and hairballish but hot damn this is
Bernard Haisch, not some total dumbo:

-----

http://www.ufoskeptic.org/

...the fact of the matter is, there does exist a vast amount of
high quality, albeit enigmatic, data. UFO sightings are not
limited to farmers in backward rural areas. There are
astronomers and pilots and NASA engineers - and others who have
been around the block a few times when it comes to observing
natural phenomena - who have witnessed events for which there is
no plausible conventional explanation.

Recently astrophysicist Ken Olum at Tufts University argued

http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0303070
(gr-qc/0303070)

that anthropic reasoning applied to inflation theory predicts
that we should find ourselves part of a large, galaxy-sized
civilization, implying that the "We are alone" solution to

http://www.ufoskeptic.org/contact.html

Fermi's paradox is inconsistent with our best current theory of
cosmology. Beatriz Gato-Rivera, a physicist at the Instituto de
Matematicas y Fisica in Madrid, followed up on this

http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0308078 (physics/0308078)

with the hypothesis that Olum is correct, but that by design we
would be kept unaware of a greatly advanced surrounding
civilization. She also argues that modern superstring and M-
 brane theory further aggravate Fermi's "missing alien" problem.

There is another aspect to the UFO phenomenon that involves
politics and secrecy rather than observational evidence. I do
not currently have a ticket to any SCI program, but over the
years I have gotten to know individuals who for one reason or
another would be aware of the existence of relevant black
programs. From such sources, certain possibilities have made it
through my credibility filter and now reside - like
Schroedinger's cat - in kind of an unresolved mental
superposition of quantum states having both the eigenvalues
"true" and "false" and no operator around to collapse the wave
function. My credibility filter is a function of several
parameters such as my own knowledge of physical laws, state of
technology and history of its origin, some personal experience
with government agencies and security classification systems,
but mostly the filter is tuned to the questions: Which people
have I learned over the years to be trustworthy, sensible and
knowledgeable? How would they be in a position to know the
things they do? Why and to what extent would they tell me
anything, even based on long-time friendship? Do they have
anything to gain by telling stories or making claims? What
consistency and convergence is there among various people's
claimed information?

I see myself a bit like the kid standing next to the kid looking
through the hole in the big tall fence at the baseball game.
This means that the closest I am getting to inside information
will be a recounting of what is going on in there. I myself am
definitely not an insider, but contacts I have acquired and/or
befriended over a long period of time seem to be on the
periphery of some kind of inside which appears to contain at
least remarkable information, and apparently more than that. Let
me be (somewhat) more specific. I now have three completely
independent examples of individuals whom I trust reporting to me
that individuals they trust have admitted to handling alien
materials in "our" possession in the course of secret official
duties. (The special access level in the one case for which I
know it is R, a not widely known SCI level whose existence was
finally verified for me by someone who himself had a very high
access level, though short of that one, as being "reserved for
someone at the very top." I do not know, however, whether it is
specifically reserved or designated for this topic.) And in yet
two mores cases, I am similarly one (trustworthy) step removed
from a former head of a federal government agency who was
involved with a special access program reporting decades-long
extraterrestrial reverse engineering efforts and a head of state
of a G8 country who also said he had been officially briefed on
that program. Now the Air Force Project Blue Book of the 1950s
and 1960s did have both a public and a classified side. I
suspect that after the public half of Blue Book closed up shop
following the Condon Report, its classified half may have
continued, existing today as a black special access program (see
below).

Could such things possibly be true? While I am intrigued by what
I have learned over the years, I can't be absolutely certain.

and so on.

Damien Broderick

-----

Terry W. Colvin








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                           Possible SETI Success?

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:47:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 10:59:48 -0400
Subject: Possible SETI Success?


Source: The Scotsman

http://news.scotsman.com/scitech.cfm?id=1028302004

09-02-04


Amateur radio operators are usually excited by the faint buzz of
a distant shortwave station, but a group of scientists believe
they have received a message from extra-terrestrials.

Astronomers think that a signal picked up by a radio telescope
last year shows the highest probability yet that ET?s family may
have returned his call.

In February 2003, scientists involved in the search for extra-
terrestrial intelligence (SETI) pointed the huge radio telescope
in Arecibo, Puerto Rico, at about 200 sections of the sky.

Unexplained radio signals had been detected twice by the same
telescope in these areas and scientists were trying to confirm
the findings.

It may sound fanciful, but a report in the journal NewScientist
reveals how the team has now finished analysing the data, and
all the signals seem to have disappeared - except for one which
has got stronger. Detected on three separate occasions, the
signal is "an enigma", say researchers.

So far, explanations have included conjecture that it could be
generated by a previously unknown astronomical phenomenon, or
may even be something far more pedestrian, such as an artefact
on the telescope itself interfering with measurements.

But the astronomy team says that it also happens to be the best
candidate yet for a contact by intelligent aliens in the six-
year history of the SETI.nul project, which uses programmes
running as screen-savers on millions of personal computers
worldwide to sift
through signals picked up by the Arecibo telescope.


Rest at: http://news.scotsman.com/scitech.cfm?id=1028302004










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   Sep > Sep 2

                         'Ley Lines'/Military Bases?

From: Patrick O'Boyle <patrick.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:01:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 11:02:21 -0400
Subject: 'Ley Lines'/Military Bases?


[Non-Subscriber Post]

Hi

I work for a television production company in Manchester (UK)
that is currently looking for an expert in Ley lines preferably
based in the UK can you help? (We are particularly interested in
theories regarding the close proximity of military bases to Ley
Lines and the implications of this proximity.)

Thanks for your time

Regards

Patrick O Boyle

Antix Productions
0161 975 6081
patrick.nul








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              SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To Date

From: William Wise <w.wise.nul>
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 07:49:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 11:04:53 -0400
Subject: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To Date


Source: New Scientist.Com

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996341

09-01-04

Mysterious signals from 1000 light years away

In February 2003, astronomers involved in the search for
extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI) pointed the massive radio
telescope in Arecibo, Puerto Rico, at around 200 sections of the
sky.

The same telescope had previously detected unexplained radio
signals at least twice from each of these regions, and the
astronomers were trying to reconfirm the findings. The team has
now finished analysing the data, and all the signals seem to
have disappeared. Except one, which has got stronger.

This radio signal, now seen on three separate occasions, is an
enigma. It could be generated by a previously unknown
astronomical phenomenon. Or it could be something much more
mundane, maybe an artefact of the telescope itself.

But it also happens to be the best candidate yet for a contact
by intelligent aliens in the nearly six-year history of the
SETI.nul project, which uses programs running as screensavers
on millions of personal computers worldwide to sift through
signals picked up by the Arecibo telescope.

Absorb and emit

�It�s the most interesting signal from SETI.nul,� says Dan
Werthimer, a radio astronomer at the University of California,
Berkeley (UCB) and the chief scientist for SETI.nul �We�re not
jumping up and down, but we are continuing to observe it.�

Named SHGb02+14a, the signal has a frequency of about 1420
megahertz. This happens to be one of the main frequencies at
which hydrogen, the most common element in the universe, readily
absorbs and emits energy.

Some astronomers have argued that extraterrestrials trying to
advertise their presence would be likely to transmit at this
frequency, and SETI researchers conventionally scan this part of
the radio spectrum.

SHGb02+14a seems to be coming from a point between the
constellations Pisces and Aries, where there is no obvious star
or planetary system within 1000 light years. And the
transmission is very weak.

�We are looking for something that screams out �artificial�,�
says UCB researcher Eric Korpela, who completed the analysis of
the signal in April. �This just doesn�t do that, but it could be
because it is distant.�

Unknown signature

The telescope has only observed the signal for about a minute in
total, which is not long enough for astronomers to analyse it
thoroughly. But, Korpela thinks it unlikely SHGb02+14a is the
result of any obvious radio interference or noise, and it does
not bear the signature of any known astronomical object.

That does not mean that only aliens could have produced it. �It
may be a natural phenomenon of a previously undreamed-of kind
like I stumbled over,� says Jocelyn Bell Burnell of the
University of Bath, UK.

It was Bell Burnell who in 1967 noticed a pulsed radio signal
which the research team at the time thought was from
extraterrestrials but which turned out to be the first ever
sighting of a pulsar.

There are other oddities. For instance, the signal�s frequency
is drifting by between eight to 37 hertz per second. �The signal
is moving rapidly in frequency and you would expect that to
happen if you are looking at a transmitter on a planet that�s
rotating very rapidly and where the civilisation is not
correcting the transmission for the motion of the planet,�
Korpela says.

This does not, however, convince Paul Horowitz, a Harvard
University astronomer who looks for alien signals using optical
telescopes. He points out that the SETI.nul software corrects
for any drift in frequency.


Fishy and puzzling

The fact that the signal continues to drift after this
correction is �fishy�, he says. �If [the aliens] are so smart,
they�ll adjust their signal for their planet�s motion.�

The relatively rapid drift of the signal is also puzzling for
other reasons. A planet would have to be rotating nearly 40
times faster than Earth to have produced the observed drift; a
transmitter on Earth would produce a signal with a drift of
about 1.5 hertz per second.

What is more, if telescopes are observing a signal that is
drifting in frequency, then each time they look for it they
should most likely encounter it at a slightly different
frequency. But in the case of SHGb02+14a, every observation has
first been made at 1420 megahertz, before it starts drifting.
�It just boggles my mind,� Korpela says.

The signal could be an artefact that, for some reason, always
appears to be coming from the same point in the sky. The Arecibo
telescope has a fixed dish reflector and scans the skies by
changing the position of its receiver relative to the dish.

When the receiver reaches a certain position, it might just be
able to reflect waves from the ground onto the dish and then
back to itself, making it seem as if the signal was coming from
space.

�Perhaps there is an object on the ground near the telescope
emitting at about this frequency,� Korpela says. This could be
confirmed by using a different telescope to listen for
SHGb02+14a.

Possible fraud

There is also the possibility of fraud by someone hacking the
SETI.nul software to make it return evidence for an
extraterrestrial transmission. However, SHGb02+14a was seen on
two different occasions by different SETI.nul users, and those
calculations were confirmed by others.

Then the signal was seen a third time by the SETI.nul
researchers. The unusual characteristics of the signal also make
it unlikely that someone is playing a prank, Korpela says. �As I
can�t think of any way to make a signal like this, I can�t think
of any way to fake it.�

David Anderson, director of SETI.nul, remains sceptical but
curious about the signal. �It�s unlikely to be real but we will
definitely be re-observing it.� Bell Burnell agrees that it is
worth persisting with. �If they can see it four, five or six
times it really begins to get exciting,� she says.

It is already exciting for IT engineers Oliver Voelker of
Logpoint in Nuremberg, Germany and Nate Collins of Farin and
Associates in Madison, Wisconsin, who found the signal.

Collins wonders how his bosses will react to company computers
finding aliens. �I might have to explain a little further about
just how much I was using [the computers],� he says.

Eugenie Samuel Reich








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                       Re: UFO Review Issue 4 - Jones

From: Sean Jones <Sean_CoolNess.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:57:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 11:07:59 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Review Issue 4 - Jones


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:40:00 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: UFO Review Issue 4

>I am pleased to announce the September issue of UFO Review is
>available at:

>http://www.uforeview.net


><snip>The other interview is with  The Devil.

>Not the actual Devil you understand but his representative on
>Earth, Andy Roberts, well known sceptic and message board & List
>combatant. This is an extremely rare and very open and honest
>interview with Andy who not only discusses his professional but
>also his private life as well. As to be expected, this is a hard
>hitting and rather direct dialogue and will offend many. Not for
>the faint hearted. Bit of a scoop this, I say modestly. Get to
>know and understand the man you want to strangle!

It's been a while since I posted here last, my personal life has
been somewhat hectic the past few years.

Many thanks for the post Stuart, and for your e-zine.

I read with particular interest the interview with Andy Roberts.

Andy and I have had our run-ins in the past, and I still respect
his hard work. It is rare that we agree on anything, but I do
agree that far too few 'researchers' never leave their armchair!

I give full respect to his research, and hard work, as not
enough others put in even a quarter of the work that he does/has
& etc.

I still disagree with him on the ETH, but agree with his logic!
<g>

It's nice to know that the blunt northerner can still pack
punches <g>


Regards

Sean Jones








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                      Astronomers Deny ET Signal Report

From: Chris Whitlock <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 13:47:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 11:10:53 -0400
Subject: Astronomers Deny ET Signal Report


I can see this forming the basis of many conspiracy theories.

Chris Whitlock
www.ufology.org.uk


-----

Source: BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3621608.stm

09-02-04


Astronomers deny ET signal report

By Dr David Whitehouse
BBC News Online science editor


The giant Arecibo telescope is used to scan the skies
Astronomers have moved swiftly to quell speculation they may
have received a deep-space radio signal from ET.

It was reported on the internet that the signal had been found
using the Seti.nul screensaver that uses computer downtime to
analyse sky data from telescopes.

But researchers connected with the project told BBC News Online
on Thursday that no contact with extraterrestrials had been
made.

"It's all hype and noise," said its chief scientist, Dr Dan
Wertheimer. "We have nothing that is unusual. It's all out of
proportion."

And Dr Paul Horowitz, of Harvard University, who specialises in
hunting for possible alien contacts added: "It's not much of
anything at all. We're not investigating it further."

Not a signal

For six years, the Seti.nul project has used a downloadable
screensaver on millions of computers around the world to sift
through data for anything unusual.

The data has been collected by radio telescopes scanning the sky
for any unusual signals from space.

At the moment, we have no candidates that we are particularly
excited about

Dr Dan Wertheimer

It is believed that any extraterrestrial intelligence might want
to send radio messages across the cosmos to make contact with
other intelligences.

Over the years, Seti.nul has detected many hundreds of
thousands of spurious signals and has used statistical
techniques to identify them as interference.

About 150 signals survived the process and were subjected to
further scrutiny but none passed the final test to be classed as
a potential signal from ET.

Large numbers

The "signal" that kicked off furious media excitement on
Thursday is called SHGb02+14a and was first detected by
computers running Seti.nul software in Germany and the US.

It has a frequency of 1420 megahertz - one of the principal
frequencies of the most abundant element hydrogen.

Speaking to BBC News Online from the Arecibo radio telescope in
Puerto Rico, where he is preparing an observing run to follow up
Seti.nul analysis, Dr Wertheimer said: "It's all hype. We don't
have anything we are excited about.

"At the moment, we have no candidates that we are particularly
excited about and the new 'signal' is not a priority."

He continued: "With Seti.nul having analysed some 50 trillion
frequency bands, it is not surprising that a signal like this
occurs purely due to chance."

Dr Horowitz, who looks for alien signals using optical
telescopes, told BBC News Online that it was "not new and
definitely not a signal".

-----








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                 Chilean Eyewitness Describes Encounter With

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:06:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 11:13:21 -0400
Subject: Chilean Eyewitness Describes Encounter With



INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
September 2, 2004

Source: Diario la Regi=F3n de Coquimbo
Date: September 1, 2004

Chile: Eyewitness Describes Encounter With Strange Creature


** Eduardo Vega told Diario La Region of the experience he
underwent with his brother in the month of July**

LA SERENA -- In its Wedensday, September 1 edition, Diario La
Region de Coquimbo published an interview with Eduardo Vega, one
of the witnesses to the mysterious appartion of a creature with
non-human characteristics in the El Panul de Coquimbo (4th
Region of Chile). Part of this interview is reproduced below.

- So, what were you fellows doing in that place?

- We own property and whenever we can we visit it to do some
work. In this case, along with my brother Francisco, who is the
shift supervisor at the Pelambres Mine (Electrical) we had gone
out to receive ad install slabs on the property.

 - And then what happened?

- It was around 10:00 a.m. when my brother Francisco, who was
some 20 meters away from the three of us, shouted desperately:
"Come, come!" ... I got scared and we ran over. He pointed
toward a spot and that's when we saw this humanoid figure, which
I can't describe otherwise.

- Don Eduardo, what did that figure look like?

- It stood some 80 cm tall. Shiny, red. Its head was large but
we couldn't make out any eyes or mouth. The figure looked like a
small person, a child perhaps wearing a diver's outfit, with its
arms close to the trunk and its legs together.

- How could you estimate its height?

- I told you, I'm a master welder...

- Where was the figure? How far away from you?

- Some 20 meters from us and some 20 meters of the ground. My
brother Francisco says he saw it walking and then it took off
some 20 meters [into the air].

- How much time went by?

- Like I told you, some 12 to 15 minutes. Out of that time the
figure was motionless some seven minutes. It didn't move at all.

- And you just looked at it...

- Of course, we didn't even move. Some words were exchanged
among the gentlemen who were with us, who were just as
surprised. They noticed that some sort of sparks or lights were
coming out of the head this image or person or I-don't-know-
what. I would say that the they were like the sparks that come
out of certain exhaust pipes when they're very hot.

- How many figures were there?

Only one. It was only ever one.

- Do you know if someone [else] could have seen it?

- No. In fact, we even thought it might be the infamous
Chupacabras, because there's a henhouse nearby. But no, nothing
happened.


Translation (c) 2004. Scott Corrales Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Liliana Nunez.









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                      Andy Roberts On American Ufology

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:51:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 11:34:52 -0400
Subject: Andy Roberts On American Ufology


In Stuart Miller's current UFO Review at:

http://www.uforeview.net

the always radiant Andy Roberts holds forth on life, love,
chemical interdependence, plus his ongoing struggle with the
enemies of his very cloistered and proprietary ufological
paradigm. In the following he explicates forcefully, if _not_
brilliantly, his unflattering assessment of American Ufology.
The rest of the review, fore and aft of what has been quoted,
contains other revelations of equivelent cant. Don Ledger as a
"silly American" can be included on a list of things Mr. Roberts
gets wrong.

-----

"...In America the [ufological] situation is 'very' different
because ufology as we know it in the UK doesn't exist.
 Virtually all that 'does' exist are fantasists and believers of
varying hues. Even the once admired ufologists such as Jerry
Clarke [sic] have regressed several decades to believer-dom.
 Sadly, this is all concerned with either personal profit for
their books or their lecture tours or just because they are so
bloody old, they think they deserve some respect. Fortunately
it won't be too many years before these fossils will be dead and
the subject will be free of their cloying influence. At least
these people have actually, at some time in their history, done
some ufological work and published their findings in books and
magazines, which is to be respected. The long years of their
fanatical hopes not being justified has, however, soured them
into individuals who cannot bear scepticism -- no, can't even
'understand' sceptism - never mind UK Ufology...

But there are worse creatures in the US, creatures of limited
intelligence and little knowledge, who believe that just because
the Internet exists their opinions are in some way relevant. One
of these humans - I am assuming he is human - bears the name
Alfred Lehmberg, a strange little person who finds it necessary
to attempt to mask his ignorance and stupidly by writing in the
manner of a 17th century sailor and kowtowing to any big name
American Ufologist. This guy has to be read to be believed and I
seriously urge anyone stupid enough to be still reading
[Miller's "UFO Review" presumably] to check his website out.
When you've stopped laughing admit that I was right. I long ago
worked out that American Ufology bears 'no' relation to the UK
version of the subject and any sensible ufologist in the UK will
confin their studies to what's happened here and not pollute
their thinking with the waffle and hot air generated by American
ufologists..."

-----

Comments to follow... "Arrrrrrrrr me hearties"! <g>










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                           A UFO Story Every Day?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 11:06:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 11:37:07 -0400
Subject: A UFO Story Every Day?


I, like many of you have wire service updates that alert me to
stories of interest.

For the past six months there's a wire story a day about
something regarding UFOs. Some are updates to prior articles but
in the past 3 weeks it's like a new story every day! From
witness sightings to politicians to scientists to just good ol'
folk tales.

Is the press covering more or is there more to report?


Best,

Greg








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                        CNN Covers SETI Signal Story

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 11:04:35 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 11:37:59 -0400
Subject: CNN Covers SETI Signal Story


http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/09/02/space.signals.reut/index.html

It's a short one but it's featured under the CNN websites main
page headlines.

I heard Seth Shostak on C2C last night and he seemed not too
excited about the signal and if I recall stated that it was just
an overblown situation.

I'll wait to see what the rest of you all say.

Best,

Greg








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                Re: Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:12:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 11:39:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch - Miller


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:28:08 -0700
>Subject: Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch

>Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:49:45 -0500
>From: Damien Broderick <thespike.nul>
> To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat.nul>
>Subj: FWD [extropy-chat] zero point fields, Bernard Haisch and, gulp, more

>Here's something kinda zany and hairballish but hot damn this is
>Bernard Haisch, not some total dumbo:


Terry,

I have a lot of time for him. But then I would do because he
does come over rather as a "believing skeptic". It does make a
refreshing change.

While not wishing to cast any aspersions though, he isn't brave
with it. I recently approached him about doing an interview for
UFO Review. He politely declined stating that his web site
basically said all he had to say. Such are the pressures of
working in academia. Good man though and one to keep an eye on.


Stuart Miller








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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:26:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 11:41:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:31:17 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:28:39 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:58:00 +0100
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind


Patient and gentle Listfolk:

>I have already said that I do not have any fixed ideas as to
>what Arnold did or did not see; I merely said that I thought the
>various theories should be seriously debated, and not just
>rejected out of hand if they seemed likely to lead to a mundane
>conclusion.

Since even the loopiest theories haven't been "dimissed out of
hand" - Easton's supersonic pelicans were the subject of
extended analysis and discussion (more than they deserved, I
must say) on this very List - John is simply being disingenuous.
Again.

>>>I have already explained that Arnold's report was extraordinary
>>>because he estimated that the objects were travelling at
>>>supersonic speeds. As you will probably agree that they were not
>>>meteors, then such a sighting can reasonably be described as
>>>extraordinary. It's really quite simple and logical, so I don't
>>>know why you are making it seem so difficult.

>>Sightings of fast-moving, structured-looking phenomena that do
>>not appear to be earthly aircraft are far from extraordinary.
>>They are quite ordinary in human experience and comprise a
>>significant number of the totality of UFO reports. What's so
>>difficult about conceding that rather obvious point?

>I don't agree. For example, we have the Chiles-Whitted bolide
>described as being "structured" - having windows, etc. This sort
>of misperception is not uncommon.

Uh huh. Chiles-Whitted saw a "bolide" - apparently because
you have say it is so. The usual pelicanist approach: wishing will
take you wherever you need to go. Here John states a dubious
proposition as if it were an established fact, then goes on to declare a
claim as undeniably true based on what you have just invented. Good
going, John. We expect nothing less of you. If it were not a mixing of
metaphors, it would not be hard to imagine pelicanism as an exercise
in the eternal chasing of one's own tail.

For the more seriously inclined, I urge a reading of Chapter 4
of my book Strange Skies (Citadel, 2003) for an examination of
Chiles-Whitted's still puzzling sighting, plus similar ones from
the early UFO era. Unlike Harney, James McDonald (whose own
massive investigative experience puts most of the rest of us to
shame) actually interviewed Chiles and Whitted (separately),
writing:

"Both pilots reiterated to me, quite recently, that each saw
_square_ ports or windows along the side of the fuselage-shaped
object from the rear of which a cherry-red wake emerged,
extending back 50-100 feet aft of the object. To term this a
'meteor' is not even _qualitatively_ reasonable. One can reject
the testimony, but reason forbids calling the object a meteor."

It was J. Allen Hynek, then with Ohio State University and early
in his tenure as Air Force advisor, who conjured up the meteor
hypothesis to start with. Even then, he acknowledged that it was
"far-fetched." He added that only the "sheer improbability of
the facts as stated" made it worthy of consideration.

In other words, since UFOs as real anomalies are inconceivable,
any other "prosaic" explanation - even the most improbable -
 will have to do (virtually a definition of the pelicanist
approach, by the way). Yet, strangely (or maybe not), just two
or three postings ago John was indignantly denying that this was
his approach. You've got to give it to the pelicanist: he'll fly
wherever the occasion demands, even if the flight path is a
bewildering one to any outside observer.

>>>The sightings are generally not extraordinary, but the claims
>>>made about them by many ufologists certainly are.

>>Not only by ufologists, but by pelicanists and other extremists.
>>Somehow, though, the latter psychosocial response to the
>>phenomenon manages not to attract the attention or interest of
>>self-described psychosociologists. Strange, that. Of course it
>>is always painful to have to subject one's own favored beliefs
>>to skeptical scrutiny.

>What are these "extraordinary claims" made by "pelicanists and
>other extremists"? Do you mean when they dare to suggest that
>some of your favourite UFO stories are hoaxes or misperceptions,
>or that the accounts given by witnesses perhaps may not have
>been entirely accurate?

This is too stupid and manifestly self-serving to merit a
response, and in any event was dealt with in a previous posting
or two (yes, I probably should have ignored it then, too; one
ought not to be encouraging this sort of bubble-headed
rhetoric). Unable to mount a cogent defense, Harney can only
repeat himself tediously. I will leave it to readers to decide
whether to laugh or cry at the amusing or sad (take your pick)
reality that pelicanists have been reduced to discourse this
coarse.

>>Yet another dreary cliche: "sell books." As we all know, UFO
>>books sell like hot cakes, at least in the lurid imaginations of
>>pelicanists if not in prosaic market reality. In the same way,
>>"true anomaly" on the cover of a book guarantees multiple
>>printings and fat royalty checks. Great argument, John.

>The spurious air of mystery which most UFO authors try to
>generate by going on about "true anomalies", etc. may not sell
>many copies, but it is apparently needed to persuade publishers
>to accept their books.

Dreary, coarse, and witless. We are now reduced, once again, to
the vile slander that UFO writers (presumably including the
undersigned) aren't really sincere, that we only want to sell
books (not very many of them, as Harney finally acknowledges,
pretending all the while that his argument remains coherent in
any sense) even if we ourselves don't believe what we're saying.
Laugh or cry? I choose laughter.

>>Besides the dreary cliche - that reports remain unsolved
>>because UFOs don't exist and therefore more information, never
>>mind the mass of same that already exists, would bring the pesky
>>heresy to ground - John has nothing but a tautology to offer
>>us, to wit:

>>Why are there unsolved UFO reports? Because there is
>>insufficient or unreliable information. How do we know the
>>information is insufficient or unreliable? Because there are
>>unsolved UFO reports.

>This might sound silly, but it is the result of UFO believers
>not having a testable hypothesis, that is a theory that most
>unsolved UFO reports have something in common, which could be
>identified by using the right investigative methods or
>statistical techniques.

Harney hurls invective at "UFO believers" (note again the cheap
rhetoric), then in the same breath concedes that his own beliefs
are tautological - in other words, circular in reasoning and
thus unfalsifiable.

Not missing a beat, he then, incredibly, goes on to accuse
ufologists of "not having a testable hypothesis." Another
symptom of the pelicanist disorder we've already seen on
display: one set of standards for one's own side, another for
the other. In any event, one testable hypothesis, of course, is
that unknowns and knowns are fundamentally unalike, a hypothesis
which to all appearances has been decided in the pro-anomaly
direction, at least so far.

Beyond that, the canard that ufologists don't produce testable
hypotheses was debunked a long time ago (in a paper by the
sociologist of science Ron Westrum, whom I promise to quote next
time if Harney persists). It is discouraging that pelicanist
rhetoric, in this as in other regards, is never retired, however
confused, infirm, and enfeebled.

As for the suggestion that there are no patterns in UFO data,
which is what I suppose Harney means by his remark about whether
"unsolved UFO reports have something in common," I would be
speechless if I could not ask some obvious questions:

What is someone who so manifestly knows so little about this
subject doing on this List? And, worse, making grand
pronouncements about it? Are ignorance of UFO research and
embrace of pelicanism a pattern in themselves? Or is the answer
not so much ignorance as faux naivete - disingenuousness, in
other words? I ask, you decide.


Jerry Clark











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                    Re: Filers Files #37 - 2004 - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 12:40:06 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 08:22:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Filers Files #37 - 2004 - Ledger


>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:07:09 -0400
>Subject: Filers Files #37 - 2004

>Filers Files #37 - 2004, Skywatch Investigations
>George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern
>Vice President of Skywatch International
>September 1, 2004
>Webmaster: Chuck Warren

<snip>

>VANCOUVER ISLAND - Phil George writes, "The photograph was
>taken a couple of weeks ago in the Sooke area of Vancouver
>Island using my Nikon Coolpix 5700." I saw nothing in the sky
>when I took it, and saw it later when I uploaded the photographs
>to my laptop. It is not in any other photographs. My wife and
>kids did not see anything either. It was the middle of the day.
>It is not a bird, even at this quality of image this camera can
>pick out a seagull at 400 feet! I shot around 700 pictures no
>other photo displays anything like this. Thanks to Phil George

The photo seen in Filer's Web issue with the text above, looks
like a floatplane to me. They are a dime a dozen in British
Columbia.


Best,

Don Ledger








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                Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:50:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 08:24:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Clark


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:51:25 -0500
>Subject: Andy Roberts On American Ufology


Hi, Alfred,

>"...In America the [ufological] situation is 'very' different
>because ufology as we know it in the UK doesn't exist.
>Virtually all that 'does' exist are fantasists and believers of
>varying hues. Even the once admired ufologists such as Jerry
>Clarke [sic] have regressed several decades to believer-dom.

That poor Jerry Clarke guy. If Andy Roberts feels bad for him,
he must be a sorry soul indeed. I'll pass on Roberts's
condolences if I ever run into Clarke. I don't recall meeting
him, but who knows? I may have somewhere, but it's escaped my
memory. I've met lots of people in my long years in ufology, and
it's hard to keep track of them all.

I would assume this Jerry Clarke is related to Andy's pal David
Clarke; maybe Jerry Clarke is an American cousin. David Clarke,
by the way, once wrote a generous review (in the venerable
British journal Folklore) of my UFO Encyclopedia. Of course that
may have been only because he was unduly influenced by his
American cousin, who may actually be evil, not just pitiful.
Perhaps it's just as well that - to the best I can recall,
anyway - I have not met this Jerry Clarke. He could be one of
those Satan worshippers, you know. After all, he _is_ an
American.


Cheers,

Jerry Clark








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                Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 13:13:27 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 08:29:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Ledger


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:51:25 -0500
>Subject: Andy Roberts On American Ufology

>In Stuart Miller's current UFO Review at:

>http://www.uforeview.net

>the always radiant Andy Roberts holds forth on life, love,
>chemical interdependence, plus his ongoing struggle with the
>enemies of his very cloistered and proprietary ufological
>paradigm.

<snip>

>-----

>"...In America the [ufological] situation is 'very' different
>because ufology as we know it in the UK doesn't exist. Virtually
>all that 'does' exist are fantasists and believers of varying
>hues.

<snip>


Yes, to set the record straight, I am a "silly Canadian". You
would think that an experienced researcher would be able to get
something that visible correct. But Andy probably thinks the .ca
at the end of my email address denotes California. Pretty much
colors the rest of his investigative history doesn't it; the
sneering unsupportive drivel he tries to pass off as serious
investigation into the phomenon, or as he he and others call it
"flying saucers" as if dishware had anything to do with it.
Begin with denigration and sink down from there.

Maybe it wasn't a reflection off a cliff afterall.

Don Ledger








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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 13:36:21 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 08:35:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Ledger


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:26:00 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:31:17 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:28:39 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind


>>Harney hurls invective at "UFO believers" (note again the cheap
>rhetoric), then in the same breath concedes that his own beliefs
>are tautological - in other words, circular in reasoning and
>thus unfalsifiable.

<snip>

>What is someone who so manifestly knows so little about this
>subject doing on this List? And, worse, making grand
>pronouncements about it? Are ignorance of UFO research and
>embrace of pelicanism a pattern in themselves? Or is the answer
>not so much ignorance as faux naivete - disingenuousness, in
>other words? I ask, you decide.

Jerry,

You ever get the feeling that there's a tag team debunker's
match going on in this List that originates in the UK? It's the
same dumb questions/hypothesis posited over and over.


Best,

Don Ledger
Just another "silly American"









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                            The Religion Of UFOs

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 08:41:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 08:41:52 -0400
Subject: The Religion Of UFOs




Source: The Bismarck Tribune - Bismarck, North Dakota

http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2004/09/03/news/life/lif01.txt

09-03-04


The Religion Of UFOs
By Jeffrey Weiss
Dallas Morning News

DALLAS - Christopher Bader was one of those kids who loved tales
of the improbable. He grew up to become his own improbable tale:

He's a sociology professor at the conservative and Baptist
Baylor University, a Presbyterian who has a particular interest
in people who say they are UFO abductees or victims of religion-
linked ritual abuse. His study of the two groups was published
in a recent issue of the Journal for the Scientific Study of
Religion.

"My students ask me all the time: 'Do you believe in UFOs? Do
you believe in ritual abuse? Do you believe in Bigfoot?'" He
said. "My answer is that I just don't care whether they're real
or not."

Studying the sociology of religion is nothing like delving into
theology, he said.

"We're not studying God. We're studying what people who believe
in God and live on earth do," he said.

"God" and "religion" are defined broadly by sociologists of
religion. Belief in UFO abductions and in ritual abuse both
include a large dose of faith.

The scientific mainstream has not accepted any claims of alien
abductions. And many who claim to have survived ritual abuse say
they discovered the abuse through the recovery of long-repressed
memories. The length of time between the alleged event and the
recovery of the memory often makes it hard to investigate the
claims.

So are there UFOs grabbing people? Are there Satanic cults
abusing people? In many cases, people believe without the kinds
of evidence that would convince outsiders - it's a matter of
faith. And that means people who belong to support groups for
UFO abductees or for survivors of ritual abuse can be studied as
members of "new religious movements."

The only connection between the UFO folks and the ritual abuse
folks is that the two groups gained attention in the 1980s, as
Dr. Bader was starting his academic career.

Sociologists such as Bader study small groups like these because
they believe this is a way to understand how successful faiths
develop. After all, the largest religions all started with a few
people considered unusual by their neighbors.

"It really is no crazier than anything else," he said of the
outside-the-mainstream stuff he studies. "I appreciate it as a
belief, and a sincerely held belief."

Not that he expects belief in UFO abductions to morph into a
major faith anytime soon. "Not in my lifetime," he said.

Most of his work involves less controversial belief systems -
 why churches and denominations succeed or fail in drawing
members. But when Baylor hired him a couple of years ago, he
told his new bosses that part of his studies could seem a bit,
well, odd for a Baptist school.

"But when I talk about Satanism in class, I'm not recruiting,"
he said.

His paper, published in the peer-reviewed journal, is the fruit
of years of tentative contacts with support groups for people
who say they've been snatched by aliens or ritually abused.
Members of these groups are suspicious of outsiders. Much of his
paper details how he gained their trust - and eventually, some
information about them.

Eventually, he was able to get 55 of the UFO folks and 51
ritual-abuse survivors to anonymously fill out forms about their
ages, education and other demographic information.

That information fills a hole in the study of these groups, he
said. Most academic attention has focused on the beliefs or on
psychological effects on the believers. Bader's goal was to
identify the kinds of people who subscribe to these beliefs.

What he came up with has its limits, he admits. The sample size
is small, and there's no way to know for sure if they represent
the average UFO abductee or ritual-abuse survivor. But the
results are in line with research done on other small, new
religious movements, he said.

Many academics who study such movements tend to consider members
of these particular groups as rubes, he said. "They assume that
these are some country bumpkins who believe that the UFOs are
plucking them off their tractors. That's not what people who are
interested in new ideas are like."

It turns out that the folk who filled out Bader's forms are a
lot like most Americans who seek out unusual faith experiences:
They're generally female, white, affluent and well-educated when
compared with the general population.

Of the 51 UFO abductees, 32 were women, 48 said they were white
and six identified as Native American (three chose both
categories), 34 attended some college, and 29 were white-collar
workers. Most said they found some positive aspects to their
experience.

Of the 48 ritual-abuse survivors, all were white women, 44 had
attended college, and of the 21 then employed, 18 were white-
collar workers. This was an unhappy population, and most
reported they had dozens of multiple personalities.

What they have in common, Bader said, is that they mostly follow
the pattern found in other new religious movements.

"The theory tells us that it doesn't matter about the
personality of the 'god' involved," he said. "The point is that
a certain demographic is interested in things outside the
mainstream."







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                       Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:35:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 08:45:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - King


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:48:06 -0500
>Subject: Re: Hungarian UFO Photo?

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:26:20 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Hungarian UFO Photo?

>>To enhance this kind of image, you should lighten it, not darken
>>it as the inset is done. This would provide an approximation of
>>what the photographer saw, and would lessen any artifacts that
>>an increase in contrast would produce.

>Not necessarily. The person was in a shadow or a more darkened
>area, while the "object" was apparently out in the bright hazy
>sunlight. The camera probably automatically adjusted to the hazy
>sunlight (common for an automatic camera), but the photographer
>didn't compensate with a fill flash. So the "proper" exposure is
>that which caught the object, so it needs no further adjustment
>in contrast or brightness.

>An interesting view of it can be created by extrapolating to a
>higher resolution. For example, here's the object using a 300
>dpi resolution, instead of the 72 dpi resolution of the photo on
>the net.

>http://www.cpu-net.com/host/shell/hungufo.jpg

>The interesting thing in this extrapolation is that the top of
>the UFO appears to be somewhat concave, not shaped like a bottle
>cap, and that there's a kind of partial ridge along the upper
>left edge.

>Well, as digital cameras get less expensive, maybe one day in
>the future we'll have photos with images as clear as people used
>to get with a Brownie Hawkeye.


Tim,

I will note the following. The woman was the subject of the
photo, as the photographer says he did not notice "anything
unusual".

The woman's face is not visible, which obviously means the
camera did not see what the photographer saw. Unless he was
interested in a shot of the tip of her nose.

If that is true of the woman, it is also true of the object. A
camera, no matter how sophisticated, can decide to perfectly
expose one part of an image, and underexpose the rest.

The entire photo is grossly underexposed. This indicates a good
reason why the photographer did not notice the object...it was
not unusual, and it did not appear to him as the object appears
in the photo. Just like the woman's face.

Without correcting to match more what the photographer saw, the
image is of no value. It is even more incorrect to "enhance" it
by increasing the "error" in the image, by darkening it further.

Other than that, the reason more people don't get good photos of
many UFOs could be that when the image is truly reflective of
what was seen, it is not something anyone would send to this
list. A bird in the background just isn't very unusual...or
unidentified.

I could be wrong...absolutely. But I did not open the image to
prove it a bird. I simply looked at what was there when I shed a
little light on it.

Actually I was pretty surprised that the two enhanced versions
(theirs and mine) were of the same object at all. I was even
more surprised that it appeared to be a bird. I was much more
expecting to get a clearer, closer look at the "metallic
object". I was pretty amazed.


Best Regards,

Kyle








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               Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To

From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:35:39 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 09:40:15 -0400
Subject: Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To


>From: William Wise <w.wise.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 07:49:51 -0400
>Subject: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To Date

>The relatively rapid drift of the signal is also puzzling for
>other reasons. A planet would have to be rotating nearly 40
>times faster than Earth to have produced the observed drift; a
>transmitter on Earth would produce a signal with a drift of
>about 1.5 hertz per second.

If this is the case then it ought to be possible to do a bit of
calculating.

If the hypothetical "planet" is rotating 40 times faster than
the earth, then its period of rotation is presumably 24/40 hours
(that is, 36 minutes). If the starting frequency is always the
same, we can deduce that during each signal the transmitter is
at roughly the same point in its rotational cycle, which means
the intervals between each signal should be a multiple of 36
minutes.

It may also be that the transmitter itself (assuming that's what
it is) is not on a planet at all, but is an artificial satellite
spinning once every 36 minutes, rather like a lighthouse beam.
In which case the same consideration applies.


Cathy

[Catherine Reason]








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                    Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:54:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 09:43:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska - King


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul,  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:17:10 -0300
>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:11:29 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Strange Doings On Tunguska

<snip>

>My reasons for wanting to know about what happened at Tunguska
>are selfish. This was a frightening release of explosive power
>that could have devastated a major city, then or even now.
>Knowing at least what actually happened would go a long way to
>preparing for a future event.

>It has probably happened at other times in Earth's history and
>perhaps could happen again.


Don,

I agree. We can look to Toutatis for an example of an object
with very eccentric motion. If it were to make an impact here,
one would expect its very unusual motion to produce some
interesting patterns as well. Toutatis is not a comet, however
the analogy of "squirrelly" motion applies.

Outgassing could also make for a tumbling, errant comet which
could explain the "butterfly pattern".

But I'm not convinced that it was a comet. No one seems to be
convinced that it was anything... yet. Well, except the Russians
going there to "prove" its ET origins and its humanitarian
purpose.

Like you said, the importance is not who gets credit for
uncovering the truth. The importance is finding the truth.

And you are likely correct in saying that it has probably
happened before... most likely at sea. Could cause a "great
flood". Hmmm.

A Tunguskan reprise closer to populated areas could be another
Hiroshima/Nagasaki in the making.

Whatever it is, we need to keep looking.


Regards,

Kyle









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               Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:57:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 09:46:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Lehmberg


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:51:25 -0500
>Subject: Andy Roberts On American Ufology

>In Stuart Miller's current UFO Review at:

>http://www.uforeview.net

>the always radiant Andy Roberts holds forth on life, love,
>chemical interdependence, plus his ongoing struggle with the
>enemies of his very cloistered and proprietary ufological
>paradigm. In the following he explicates forcefully, if _not_
>brilliantly, his unflattering assessment of American Ufology.
>The rest of the review, fore and aft of what has been quoted,
>contains other revelations of equivelent cant. Don Ledger as a
>"silly American" can be included on a list of things Mr. Roberts
>gets wrong.

>-----

>"...In America the [ufological] situation is 'very' different
>because ufology as we know it in the UK doesn't exist.

From the top it seems obvious that our Mr. Roberts is an ardent
divider who won't even pretend to see the obvious usefulness of
even a tenuous unity. One might surmise that unidentified flying
objects must provoke the same kinds concern and interest in the
whole of our western civilization, but not our Mr. Roberts. For
him, the British version (a version seemingly invented out of
whole cloth) connotes some kind of clear superiority that he
doesn't qualify here or elsewhere... or ever... so it remains
why he'd try to make a (merely proclaimed) case for it here.
Perhaps his dodgy methods and corrupted ethics as the "BlueHare"
provide verity to the argument that it is the 'division', in and
of itself, that is his end.

>Virtually all that 'does' exist are fantasists and believers of
>varying hues.

I can't understand why a dissembler, hoaxer and self-admitted
confabulator can proclaim that persons who feel that he is,
himself, full of wild blueberry horse muffins... are themselves
"fantasists and believers of varying hues," and still expect to
be remotely believed or in any way taken seriously. The
intellectual void that Mr. Roberts helps to create and maintain
with his duplicitous (Bluehare-like) antics provokes these
believers and fantasists as a reaction, I suspect, of persons
sensing something _beyond_ what Mr. Roberts would niggardly
allow... Indeed, those persons who Mr. Roberts can bring himself
to find agreement with worthy and significant... while those he
won't agree with are dismissed as pastel whackos... It all seems
a little too convenient for _total_ rationality.

>Even the once admired ufologists such as Jerry
>Clarke [sic] have regressed several decades to believer-dom.

Jerry Clark contrasted with Andy Roberts is like a contrast
between the war records of John Kerry and George W. Bush. The
former is forthright and carries shrapnel in his body and the
latter is duplicitous and carries dental fillings. Jerry Clark
has been erudite, constructive, and efficaciously productive,
where Andy Roberts has clearly been the abject _opposite_ of
those things. I suspect Mr. Roberts problems with Mr. Clark stem
from professional jealousy and not Mr. Clark's lack of
incisiveness. Indeed, my position is that Mr. Roberts has to
scale a piss-ants stepladder to buff Jerry Clark's shoe-tops...
but that might just be my _own_ bias. [g].

>Sadly, this is all concerned with either personal profit for
>their books or their lecture tours

This oft repeated and deleterious nonsense is the favorite
rubric of the dissembling skeptibunker, who is the one making
real money with their CSICOP books and CFI lecture tours.

>or just because they are so
>bloody old, they think they deserve some respect.

I wonder if there will be the hue and cry from the pelicanists
with regard to this statement when compared with the statement I
made about the "dead man walking" Philip Klass. I'd predict not.
Goose and Gander gravy are distinctly different in _their_
conflicted cock-up of a constipated universe. Fact is... the
person to whom Mr. Roberts likely refers is due a _monumental_
respect, and Mr. Roberts, not fit to hose off the unnamed's
field toilet, shows rare good sense (if _not_ cowardice) not to
mention him by name...

>Fortunately
>it won't be too many years before these fossils will be dead and
>the subject will be free of their cloying influence.

Just like bottom feeding corporate lawyers employing timewasting
amendments and delays and appeals in hopes that the defendant
finally dies before he can win his due. The only person really
providing an example of the old saw regarding funerals as
progenitors of social improvement is Mr. Roberts himself. It
seems we'll be waiting a long time, too long perhaps, for Mr.
Roberts' to slough the mortal coil.

>At least
>these people have actually, at some time in their history, done
>some ufological work and published their findings in books and
>magazines, which is to be respected.

...And when would our Mr. Roberts like to start?

>The long years of their
>fanatical hopes not being justified has, however, soured them
>into individuals who cannot bear scepticism -- no, can't even
>'understand' sceptism - never mind UK Ufology...

What pompous arrogance. What monumental distortion. What
monstrous parochialism. What unbelievable, unsupportable, and
unrealistic partisanism. I'd suggest it is Mr. Roberts who has
himself soured, become the fanatic who can't 'bear' things, and
who does not, really, understand the word skeptic. A skeptic, by
definition, is not going to be a partisan. Mr. Roberts' is _all_
partisan. Moreover, Mr., Roberts pernicious pulings are why
'opinions' are so often compared with anal 'pores'.

>But there are worse creatures in the US, creatures of limited
>intelligence and little knowledge, who believe that just because
>the Internet exists their opinions are in some way relevant.

Now our Mr. Robert's swings his close set and beady gaze around
to those of us who find him something _less_ than convincing.

>One
>of these humans - I am assuming he is human - bears the name

Demonize or dehumanize the opposition to invalidate it. Attack
the man when you can't attack the message. Easy ridicule always
trumps addressing the issues. Mr. Roberts is to be congratulated
for proving my point, again, in his own words and by his own
admission. Mr. Roberts would suggest that I am anything less
that human? How much of that is remotely effective in, even, a
high school debate? One must consider the source and move on.

>Alfred Lehmberg, a strange little person who finds it necessary
>to attempt to mask his ignorance and stupidly by writing in the
>manner of a 17th century sailor and kowtowing to any big name
>American Ufologist.

I can hardly apologize for having respect for the language
beyond a 15 minute news cycle, have intelligence and knowledge
'enough' to see through _him_ at any rate, or for writing in a
formal style... as to kowtowing to big name American
ufologists... Mr. Roberts should ask Richard Hall and Jerry
Clark about my manner of kowtow. Evidence for a distinct lack of
same can be found on the UpDates List. This is forgetting for a
moment that I'd gladly sub for Stanton Friedman's towel-boy any
time he asks... some men earn more than an ordinate amount of
respect from me. Stanton Friedman is one of these. I won't
apologize for this either.

>This guy has to be read to be believed and I
>seriously urge anyone stupid enough to be still reading
>[Miller's "UFO Review" presumably] to check his website out.
>When you've stopped laughing admit that I was right.

Please do. Through the laughter try to remember that the site
was produced with sincerity, respect for the reader, and with
some small artistic rationality. Comments and feedback welcome.

>I long ago
>worked out that American Ufology bears 'no' relation to the UK
>version of the subject and any sensible ufologist in the UK will
>confine their studies to what's happened here and not pollute
>their thinking with the waffle and hot air generated by American
>ufologists..."

I've just-this-minute concluded that I must be effective indeed!
 A whole paragraph! Jerry Clark got a sentence and Richard Hall
only got an allusion! I am ~well~ served! LOL! I had no
~idea~ I was being so effective...  I was prepared for line
item criticism and was relieved that it was only base insult,
piqued proclamation, and errant ad hominum... forgetting the
free publicity for the AV site. LOL! It seems clear that I'm so
far up Mr. Roberts nose he feels my knees on his top lip... he
should prepare himself for my boot heels.

"Arrrrrrrr! ...me hearties!" [g].










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   Sep > Sep 3

                   'Black Triangle' Sightings On The Rise

From: Alfred Webre <EcoRadio.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 15:04:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 09:54:08 -0400
Subject: 'Black Triangle' Sightings On The Rise


Source: Space.Com

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/flying_triangle_040902.html

09-02-04


Silent Running: 'Black Triangle' Sightings on the Rise
By Leonard David
Senior Space Writer

They have become legendary in UFO circles. Huge, silent-running
"Flying Triangles" have been seen by ground observers
creeping through the sky low and slow near cities and quietly
cruising over highways.

The National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS), has
catalogued the Triangle sightings, sifting through and combining
databases to take a hard look at the mystery craft. Based in Las
Vegas, Nevada, NIDS is a privately funded science institute with
a strong research focusing on aerial phenomena.The results of
their study have just been released and lead to some unnerving,
still puzzling conclusions.

The study points out: "The United States is currently
experiencing a wave of Flying Triangle sightings that may have
intensified in the 1990s, especially towards the latter part of
the 1990s. The wave continues. The Flying Triangles are being
openly deployed over and near population centers, including in
the vicinity of major Interstate Highways."

Covert operations?

A key NIDS conclusion is that the actions of these triangular
craft do not conform to previous patterns of covert deployment
of unacknowledged aircraft. Furthermore, "neither the agenda nor
the origin of the Flying Triangles are currently known."

The years 1990-2004 have seen an intense wave of Flying Triangle
aircraft, the study observes. Sifting through reports by
hundreds of eyewitnesses, the NIDS assessment states that the
behavior of the vehicles "does not appear consistent with the
covert deployment of an advanced DoD [U.S. Department of the
Defense] aircraft."

Rather, it is consistent with (a) the routine and open
deployment of an unacknowledged advanced DoD aircraft or (b) the
routine and open deployment of an aircraft owned and operated by
non-DoD personnel, suggests the NIDS study.

"The implications of the latter possibility are disturbing,
especially during the post 9/11 era when the United States
airspace is extremely heavily guarded and monitored," the NIDS
study explains. "In support of option (a), there is much greater
need for surveillance in the United States in the post 9/11 era
and it is certainly conceivable that deployment of low altitude
surveillance platforms is routine and open."

Open, even brazen

According to Colm Kelleher, NIDS Administrator, the newly
completed quasi "meta-analysis" of Flying Triangles melds three
major U.S. databases: NIDS, the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) and
data collected by independent researcher, Larry Hatch, the
creator and owner of one of the largest and most comprehensive
UFO databases in the world.

Kelleher said, the analysis indicates that deployment of Flying
Triangles is open, not covert, and involves low-flying, brightly
lit aircraft routinely deployed over populated areas including
cities and Interstate highways.

"However, I cannot say whether these are U.S. Air Force
aircraft. We simply don't know," Kelleher told SPACE.com . "But
it does not appear to be consistent with the covert patterns of
deployment we saw with the F-117 and B-2 prior to their
acknowledgement. This is open, even brazen," he stated.

Stealth aircraft

For example, a perfunctory look at the how past DoD stealth
aircraft programs were kept from public eye - although
eventually came to light - is different from the patterns for
the Flying Triangles.

Prior to acknowledgement of the F-117 and B-2 aircraft, only
rare night time sightings occurred in the sparsely populated
sections of Nevada, California and a few other states. Flying at
low altitude over populated areas was rarely reported for the F-
117 or B-2.

"In contrast, the Flying Triangle deployment, especially during
the 1990s, appears more consistent with the open and public
operation of these aircraft," the study explains. The trend of
open deployment of the Flying Triangles is not consistent with
secret operation of an advanced DoD aircraft.

No attempt to hide

The database-driven study of the Flying Triangle shows the
following patterns:

- Sightings take place near cities and on Interstate highways
- They are seen at low altitude in plain sight of eyewitnesses
- They fly at extremely low speed or hover in plain sight of
  eyewitnesses
- The vehicles sometime fly with easily noticeable bright lights
- either blinding white lights, or have "bright disco lights"
  that usually flash combinations of red, green or blue.

The NIDS study emphasizes that the flying of these vehicles may
be more in harmony with an attempt to display or to be noticed.
There appears to be little or no attempt to hide. That finding
has led to a modification of an earlier NIDS hypothesis that the
Triangles are covertly deployed DoD aircraft.

While it is too early to dismiss the previously published NIDS
correlation between Triangle sightings and a subset of U.S. Air
Force Bases, the apparent association with centers of population
may point away from a covert program. "Rather, it is consistent
with routine and open deployment of an advanced aircraft," the
NIDS study concludes.

Clustered on both coasts

During the ensuing years (2000-2004), NIDS received hundreds of
reports from people in the United States and Canada reporting
large triangular aircraft, often silent and often flying at very
low altitude and at low air speed. In many cases, the objects
were brightly lit. NIDS files also include reports of Flying
Triangles from remote areas.

In mid 2004, NIDS reviewed its database that contains the
locations of the Triangle sightings in the United States. The
sightings of Triangles appear primarily adjacent to population
centers and along Interstate Highways, with sightings clustered
on both coasts.

NIDS has amassed almost 400 separate sightings of
triangular/boomerang/wedge-shaped objects. Many of these craft
are brightly lit, low flying, and traveling at unexpectedly low
air speeds.

In earlier reports, NIDS outlined a tentative correlation
between reported sightings of Triangles and the locations of Air
Mobility Command and Air Force Materiel Command bases in the
United States.

Like a Star Trek "uncloaking"

According to ground observers, the features of a Black Triangle
are indeed impressive.

For example, the NIDS study includes the observation of a Port
Washington Wisconsin person who encountered a large object that
flew over her home at 500 feet altitude in October 1998. Her
eyeing of the clear starry night was interrupted as the craft
came into her field of view.

"Suddenly this monstrosity came out of the 'blue', just like
a Star Trek 'uncloaking', no kidding - so quiet I couldn't
believe it and so huge - no more than 500 feet or so up, and big
enough to take up my field of sky vision," she reported.

Crude mathematics, the witness recounted, would make the vessel
about 200 feet wide and 250 feet long.

Two camps

In wrapping up its look at the burgeoning number of Flying
Triangle sightings in the United States, NIDS also took into
account the work of writers and researchers delving into the
topic both in the United States and abroad.

Those analyses fall into two camps: The Triangles are human-
made, while the other says they are not.

"In 2004 it is extremely difficult to distinguish between these
two possibilities since the former option overlaps heavily with
legitimate national security concerns, while in the absence of
much more physical evidence, the latter option is not testable,"
the NIDS assessment concludes.


posted by:
Alfred Lambremont Webre, JD, MEd
Exopolitics.com
http://www.exopolitics.com
Vancouver, BC








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   Sep > Sep 3

              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:07:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 10:03:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:26:00 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:31:17 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>Patient and gentle Listfolk:

>>I have already said that I do not have any fixed ideas as to
>>what Arnold did or did not see; I merely said that I thought the
>>various theories should be seriously debated, and not just
>>rejected out of hand if they seemed likely to lead to a mundane
>>conclusion.

>Since even the loopiest theories haven't been "dimissed out of
>hand" - Easton's supersonic pelicans were the subject of
>extended analysis and discussion (more than they deserved, I
>must say) on this very List - John is simply being disingenuous.
>Again.

They were the subject of extended discussion but have since been
endless inane remarks by believers, such as your "supersonic
pelicans" in the above paragraph.

>>I don't agree. For example, we have the Chiles-Whitted bolide
>>described as being "structured" - having windows, etc. This sort
>>of misperception is not uncommon.

>Uh huh. Chiles-Whitted saw a "bolide" - apparently because
>you have say it is so. The usual pelicanist approach: wishing will
>take you wherever you need to go. Here John states a dubious
>proposition as if it were an established fact, then goes on to declare a
>claim as undeniably true based on what you have just invented.

Not an esatablished fact, Jerry, just a rational hypothesis -
 certainly better than the notion of an alien spacecraft with
rows of windows.

>For the more seriously inclined, I urge a reading of Chapter 4
>of my book Strange Skies (Citadel, 2003) for an examination of
>Chiles-Whitted's still puzzling sighting, plus similar ones from
>the early UFO era. Unlike Harney, James McDonald (whose own
>massive investigative experience puts most of the rest of us to
>shame) actually interviewed Chiles and Whitted (separately),
>writing:

>"Both pilots reiterated to me, quite recently, that each saw
>_square_ ports or windows along the side of the fuselage-shaped
>object from the rear of which a cherry-red wake emerged,
>extending back 50-100 feet aft of the object. To term this a
>'meteor' is not even _qualitatively_ reasonable. One can reject
>the testimony, but reason forbids calling the object a meteor."

As I said, such misperceptions are not uncommon, and McDonald
was not an expert in the vagaries of human perception.

>In other words, since UFOs as real anomalies are inconceivable,
>any other "prosaic" explanation - even the most improbable -
>will have to do (virtually a definition of the pelicanist
>approach, by the way). Yet, strangely (or maybe not), just two
>or three postings ago John was indignantly denying that this was
>his approach. You've got to give it to the pelicanist: he'll fly
>wherever the occasion demands, even if the flight path is a
>bewildering one to any outside observer.

Any prosaic explanation does not have to do; it's simply a
question of suggesting the most reasonable explanation, unless
someone can demonstrate that it must be wrong. Unlike many on
this List, I believe that common sense is quite useful in
ufology.

>>What are these "extraordinary claims" made by "pelicanists and
>>other extremists"? Do you mean when they dare to suggest that
>>some of your favourite UFO stories are hoaxes or misperceptions,
>>or that the accounts given by witnesses perhaps may not have
>>been entirely accurate?

>This is too stupid and manifestly self-serving to merit a
>response, and in any event was dealt with in a previous posting
>or two (yes, I probably should have ignored it then, too; one
>ought not to be encouraging this sort of bubble-headed
>rhetoric). Unable to mount a cogent defense, Harney can only
>repeat himself tediously. I will leave it to readers to decide
>whether to laugh or cry at the amusing or sad (take your pick)
>reality that pelicanists have been reduced to discourse this
>coarse.

Let's see - "stupid", "self serving", "bubble-headed", and from
Don Ledger, "dim bulb". I'm certainly getting quite a collection
of gratuitous insults, aren't I?

>>The spurious air of mystery which most UFO authors try to
>>generate by going on about "true anomalies", etc. may not sell
>>many copies, but it is apparently needed to persuade publishers
>>to accept their books.

>Dreary, coarse, and witless. We are now reduced, once again, to
>the vile slander that UFO writers (presumably including the
>undersigned) aren't really sincere, that we only want to sell
>books (not very many of them, as Harney finally acknowledges,
>pretending all the while that his argument remains coherent in
>any sense) even if we ourselves don't believe what we're saying.
>Laugh or cry? I choose laughter.

I'm sure you're very sincere, Jerry, and your motives for making
UFO reports sound - ever so slightly - mysterious are perfectly
honest. However, we all know, and it has recently been discussed
on this List, that for a number of ufologists, providing popular
entertainment takes precedence over serious research,
investigation or discussion.

>Harney hurls invective at "UFO believers" (note again the cheap
>rhetoric), then in the same breath concedes that his own beliefs
>are tautological - in other words, circular in reasoning and
>thus unfalsifiable.

Hardly as cheap as "bubble-headed", etc.

>Not missing a beat, he then, incredibly, goes on to accuse
>ufologists of "not having a testable hypothesis." Another
>symptom of the pelicanist disorder we've already seen on
>display: one set of standards for one's own side, another for
>the other. In any event, one testable hypothesis, of course, is
>that unknowns and knowns are fundamentally unalike, a hypothesis
>which to all appearances has been decided in the pro-anomaly
>direction, at least so far.

You need something more definite, that can be tested
statistically.

>Beyond that, the canard that ufologists don't produce testable
>hypotheses was debunked a long time ago (in a paper by the
>sociologist of science Ron Westrum, whom I promise to quote next
>time if Harney persists). It is discouraging that pelicanist
>rhetoric, in this as in other regards, is never retired, however
>confused, infirm, and enfeebled.

I'll try to steel myself against the ordeal of having Ron
Westrum quoted at me.

>As for the suggestion that there are no patterns in UFO data,
>which is what I suppose Harney means by his remark about whether
>"unsolved UFO reports have something in common," I would be
>speechless if I could not ask some obvious questions:
>What is someone who so manifestly knows so little about this
>subject doing on this List? And, worse, making grand
>pronouncements about it? Are ignorance of UFO research and
>embrace of pelicanism a pattern in themselves? Or is the answer
>not so much ignorance as faux naivete - disingenuousness, in
>other words? I ask, you decide.

By "grand pronouncements" you presumably really mean "rational
arguments"? And do you mean that you want all non-believers
removed from this List? You certainly seem to have got rid of
quite a few so far.


John Harney








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   Sep > Sep 3

                 Re: Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 20:28:40 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 10:05:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch - Hall


>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:12:56 +0100
>Subject: Re: Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:28:08 -0700
>>Subject: Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch

<snip>

>I have a lot of time for him. But then I would do because he
>does come over rather as a "believing skeptic". It does make a
>refreshing change.

>While not wishing to cast any aspersions though, he isn't brave
>with it. I recently approached him about doing an interview for
>UFO Review. He politely declined stating that his web site
>basically said all he had to say. Such are the pressures of
>working in academia. Good man though and one to keep an eye on.


Stuart,

Just to set the record straight, Bernie Haisch  was on the panel
assembled by the SciFi Channel that gave a public presentation
at George Washington University, Washington, D.C., last year.

  - Dick








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   Sep > Sep 3

                         NIDS FT Study Hits The News

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 14:22:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 10:07:43 -0400
Subject: NIDS FT Study Hits The News


Hello Colm and List readers:

Colm's NIDS Flying Triangle study has made the news!

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5897539/

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=96&ncid=753&e=10&u=/space/200409
02/sc_space/silentrunningblacktrianglesightingsontherise

(sorry about long URL..)

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/flying_triangle_040902.html


All 3 articles are virtually identical. I was alerted when the
hit counter on my site shot up. People were searching for my
name (its in there somewhere) instead of the more usual "UFO
sightings / maps / statistics .."


Best wishes

- Larry










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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:24:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 10:55:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:28:39 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>Sightings of fast-moving, structured-looking phenomena that do
>not appear to be earthly aircraft are far from extraordinary.
>They are quite ordinary in human experience and comprise a
>significant number of the totality of UFO reports. What's so
>difficult about conceding that rather obvious point?

What sort of an argument is this, Jerry? Are you saying that
there is nothing extraordinary about sightings of
extraterrestrial vehicles, which is the only way they could be
defined by your description: "fast- moving, structured-looking
phenomena that do not appear to be earthly aircraft".

Or are you going to pull your tired old argument that there is
some other meaning to the phrase "fast-moving, structured-
looking phenomena that do not appear to be earthly aircraft"
which somehow avoids the necessity of admitting that you do
actually believe in the ETH?

Did someone say "disingenuous'?

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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   Sep > Sep 3

                       Scientists To Map The Universe

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:44:21 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 10:58:47 -0400
Subject: Scientists To Map The Universe


Source: Yahoo News

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=3Dstory&u=3D/ap/20040902/ap_on_sc/puerto_ric=
o_space_map_1

09-02-04


Scientists to Map Known Universe

By Frank Griffiths
Associated Press Writer

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico - The radio telescope at Puerto Rico's
Arecibo Observatory will begin mapping the known galaxy on
Friday, scientists said.

The radio telescope, the world's most sensitive listening device
that is powerful enough to hear planets forming several billion
lights years away, received six more radio receivers to expand
its range.

The $1 million upgrade, nicknamed the ALFA project, was
completed a few weeks ago and 12 scientists will begin using the
telescope Friday to map the night sky for future generations,
astronomer Dan Werthimer said.

Arecibo expects to find thousands of new pulsars, supernovas,
black holes and planets.

The map, with its collection of detailed data about location,
identity and properties of what is in space, will go far beyond
anything currently in use, researchers say. No such map has been
made until now because the telescope had a limited field of
view.

"The new upgrade is like having seven Arecibo observatories at
once," Werthimer said. "You can see seven different parts of the
galaxy simultaneously. The mapping will be seven times faster."

The mapping could be completed in a few months if the
observatory devoted all of its telescope hours to the ALFA
project, said Sixto Gonzalez, observatory director. However, the
process is likely to take at least two years to allow other
astronomers to work on other projects like searching for
extraterrestrial life, he said.

ALFA, which stands for the Arecibo L-Band Feed Array, discovered
its first pulsar last month during a test run, Gonzalez said.

The 1,000-foot-wide parabolic receiver =E2=80=94 composed of 38,000
aluminum tiles =E2=80=94 allows researchers to listen to sounds in
space instead of depending on optics, like the orbiting Hubble
Space Telescope.

The information gathered will be compiled in a worldwide
database scientists can access on the Internet, scientists say.

The observatory and its gargantuan dish were built in 1963 by
the Department of Defense. It is now run by Cornell University
under the National Foundation of Science.

The telescope's 1974 discovery of a twin neutron stars won a
pair of scientists the Nobel Prize in 1993 by proving Albert
Einstein's theory of gravity waves. Other finds include ice on
Mercury and the first known planets outside our solar system.

However, the dish is best known for its cameo appearances in
such films as "Contact" and the James Bond adventure "Golden
Eye," although the search for alien life takes up less than 1
percent of the telescope's time.

On the Net:

Arecibo Observatory: http://www.naic.edu

ALFA project: http://alfa.naic.edu








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   Sep > Sep 3

                   Re: CNN Covers SETI Signal Story - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 19:12:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:00:52 -0400
Subject: Re: CNN Covers SETI Signal Story - King


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 11:04:35 EDT
>Subject: CNN Covers SETI Signal Story

>http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/09/02/space.signals.reut/index.html

>It's a short one but it's featured under the CNN websites main
>page headlines.

>I heard Seth Shostak on C2C last night and he seemed not too
>excited about the signal and if I recall stated that it was just
>an overblown situation.

>I'll wait to see what the rest of you all say.


Hi Greg,

Mr. Shostak did seem to be taking pains to downplay the
significance of the signal. Unfortunately he didn't go into much
detail about his feelings one way or the other.

Based on his apparent low interest level, I wonder who got the
phones jingling at CNN and the other news outlets?


Regards,

Kyle







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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:18:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:07:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:26:00 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>What is someone who so manifestly knows so little about this
>subject doing on this List? And, worse, making grand
>pronouncements about it? Are ignorance of UFO research and
>embrace of pelicanism a pattern in themselves? Or is the answer
>not so much ignorance as faux naivete - disingenuousness, in
>other words? I ask, you decide.


Hi Jerry,

With all due respect, if I'm reading this paragraph correctly,
it is saying that anyone who knows little about the subject
should no be a member of this List.

Unless I was misled, the only requirement for joining this List
was that I have an e-mail account from which to send a request
to join. There was no requirement to provide any credential or
other proof of any minimally accepted level of knowledge about
it.

I figured the discussion and debate would determine (for all)
who "knew little" or not. I hope I was not misled.

The current thread has degenerated into accusations of lying, of
unworthiness to engage in the debate, and a tacit indictment of
all who know (presumably) less than you. This does not seem the
quality of debate one would expect from someone who purports to
be an arbiter of who "knows so little".


Again, Respectfully,

Kyle







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   Sep > Sep 3

             Re: 'Black Triangle' Sightings On The Rise - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:53:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 13:14:29 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Black Triangle' Sightings On The Rise - Shell


>From: Alfred Webre <EcoRadio.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 15:04:15 EDT
>Subject: 'Black Triangle' Sightings On The Rise

>Source: Space.Com
>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/flying_triangle_040902.html

>Silent Running: 'Black Triangle' Sightings on the Rise


From my perspective, it appears media coverage of black
triangles is on the rise. I wonder about the actual number of
sightings. There has also seemingly been a rise in the number of
flying saucers sighted.

Hard to get good, timely data.








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   Sep > Sep 3

                  Spacecraft Seen in Panul Region Of Chile?

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:57:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 13:18:34 -0400
Subject: Spacecraft Seen in Panul Region Of Chile?


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
September 3, 2004


SOURCE: OVNIVISION/ Diario La Regi=F3n de Coquimbo
DATE: September 2, 2004

"YES, WE SAW A SPACECRAFT AT PANUL"

LA SERENA -- Information continues to arrive regarding the
apparition of mysterious entities in the Coquimbo's Panul Sector
(4th Region of Chile. We are reproducing the article featured in
Thursday, September 2nd's Diario La Region de Coquimbo.

Yolanda Santibanez and Edmundo Ram=EDrez both claim, and startle
us, by saying that on the same week of the humanoid sighting in
Coquimbo, whose account appears in yesterday's edition, an
unidentified flying object flew over the the area.

While the brilliant afternoon sun slowly vanishes into a
disquieting fog and a chill wind appears to herald a storm,
silence reigns among residents of El Panul de Coquimbo regarding
the "humanoid subject", as we could classify the chronicles
published on Tuesday and Wednesday this week, and which describe
the sighting last July by four individuals.

Yesterday, we wished to collect new eyewitness accounts in the
same area, but it is evident that people are feeling panic, or
at least fear of being ridiculed and criticised by their nearest
and dearest.

At first we are told no, that the witnesses aren't home, that
they themselves haven't seen anything, that it's all just tall
tales... but they begin to relax when they realize that
spreading doubt isn't healthy either.

It was thus that REGION learned new information on this subject.

A pair of local residents who live on a property that serves as
a repair shop at the edge of the highway told us that they have
indeed seen strange things, and that they themselves saw some
sort of flying saucer.

Yolanda Santiba=F1ez recalls that it was during the month of July
in late afternoon hours that she and other witnesses observed a
strange phenomenon in the skies, as she describes it.

"Yes, it was July, I couldn't tell you the exact date, but we
saw an object in the sky near La Romana. It had an elongated
shape, black or grey in color, and it shrank and expanded...it
seemed to float while it assumed a square shape and when it
remained like that, it seemed to have some things like wheels or
such. At no time did we feel afraid, because we were
accompanied."

She later adds other details and repeats them as though
rewinding and reliving the events.

Edmundo Ramirez, another resident of the Panul sector, claims
that such episodes occur repeatedly, and offered more details
about them.

"The object we saw in July appeared suddenly. It made no noise,
such as engine noise, for example. It was elongated, but kept
getting longer and had no lights. The time was about 5 or 6
p.m.. Some other people who work here also saw it. It arrived as
if from the north, passing slowly over the eucalyptus trees in
the La Romana sector. Then it descended along that terrain as if
heading toward the sea, and then vanished. Luckily it didn't
approach us, and the dogs didn't bark either."

The sector [both witnesses] have indicated as the place where
the vehicle disappeared is the same area indicated by the other
witnesses claiming to have seen a small, glowing-red 80 cm. tall
humanoid.

Eduardo Vega, his brother and two other workers of the Argando=F1a
brick works are the witnesses to this event, which they have
shared with the greatest respect and seriousness, which they
hope will be reciprocated. The Vega brothers are professionals
and workers of the cement factory are adult heads of household.

Numerous calls to our newsroom and the high demand for the
newspaper are proof of popular interest in the subject. However,
LA REGION shall reserve the right to publish only those accounts
given by people of known identity.



Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Liliana Nunez









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             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:10:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 13:21:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 13:36:21 -0300
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:26:00 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:31:17 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>Harney hurls invective at "UFO believers" (note again the cheap
>>rhetoric), then in the same breath concedes that his own beliefs
>>are tautological - in other words, circular in reasoning and
>>thus unfalsifiable.

><snip>

>>What is someone who so manifestly knows so little about this
>>subject doing on this List? And, worse, making grand
>>pronouncements about it? Are ignorance of UFO research and
>>embrace of pelicanism a pattern in themselves? Or is the answer
>>not so much ignorance as faux naivete - disingenuousness, in
>>other words? I ask, you decide.

>Jerry,

>You ever get the feeling that there's a tag team debunker's
>match going on in this List that originates in the UK? It's the
>same dumb questions/hypothesis posited over and over.

>Don Ledger
>Just another "silly American"

Oh - so you _are_ an American. I'd have _sworn_ you were
Canadian. <g>

With regard to tag-teams, I think it's time then, for a _real_
smackdown. Clark/Hall/Friedman chump, if not trump, a
Roberts/Rimmer/Clarke cage match. Thing is? Clark/Hall/Friedman
are Olympic Athletes and Roberts/Rimmer/Clarke second team, 'b'
list, and regional 'rastlers'... I suspect the latter would get
twisted into all _manner_ of interesting (and painful!) shapes
by the former.

Oh bother... there I am kowtowing again. But tough to avoid when
you have eyes to see and ears with which to hear. So what state
do you hail from Don? I have it on the authority of one who
_would_ be taken seriously.








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               Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:22:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 13:40:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Lehmberg


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:50:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:51:25 -0500
>>Subject: Andy Roberts On American Ufology

>>"...In America the [ufological] situation is 'very' different
>>because ufology as we know it in the UK doesn't exist.
>>Virtually all that 'does' exist are fantasists and believers of
>>varying hues. Even the once admired ufologists such as Jerry
>>Clarke [sic] have regressed several decades to believer-dom.

>That poor Jerry Clarke guy. If Andy Roberts feels bad for him,
>he must be a sorry soul indeed. I'll pass on Roberts's
>condolences if I ever run into Clarke. I don't recall meeting
>him, but who knows? I may have somewhere, but it's escaped my
>memory. I've met lots of people in my long years in ufology, and
>it's hard to keep track of them all.

>I would assume this Jerry Clarke is related to Andy's pal David
>Clarke; maybe Jerry Clarke is an American cousin. David Clarke,
>by the way, once wrote a generous review (in the venerable
>British journal Folklore) of my UFO Encyclopedia. Of course that
>may have been only because he was unduly influenced by his
>American cousin, who may actually be evil, not just pitiful.
>Perhaps it's just as well that - to the best I can recall,
>anyway - I have not met this Jerry Clarke. He could be one of
>those Satan worshippers, you know. After all, he _is_ an
>American.

Of course! Foolish me! I just _assumed_ he referred to you, and
that he was a classic case of "open mouth, insert foot, and echo
internationally"!

You're right, our always incisive Mr. Roberts is an "A" list
British researcher, after all! He'd _never_ make a mistake like
that! Look at the work just recently completed with regard to
unmasking Don Ledger as an American (with links to Al Quida I'm
betting!). Lesson learned!








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   Sep > Sep 3

                 Re: NIDS FT Study Hits The News - Bob Shell

From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:12:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 13:44:19 -0400
Subject: Re: NIDS FT Study Hits The News - Bob Shell


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 14:22:10 -0700
>Subject: NIDS FT Study Hits The News


>http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=96&ncid=753&e=10&u=/space/20040
902/sc_space/silentrunningblacktrianglesightingsontherise

>(sorry about long URL..)

When you have a long URL like this, go to www.tinyurl.com and
plug it in. You will get a short URL that works just as well.
In this case it is:

http://tinyurl.com/45m5x


Bob









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   Sep > Sep 3

             Raytheon Snags Contract For 'Moon To Mars' Mission

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:21:49 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 18:47:44 -0400
Subject: Raytheon Snags Contract For 'Moon To Mars' Mission


Source: Mass High Tech - The Journal Of New England Technology

http://www.masshightech.com/displayarticledetail.asp?Art_ID=3D66567

09-03-04

Raytheon launches NASA Moon-to-Mars project with $1M contract


Waltham-based Raytheon Co. has been selected by NASA to
participate in a six-month study team to define various system
requirements and design the architecture for the agency=E2=80=99s
Project Constellation Moon-to-Mars program.

Raytheon, led by engineers at its Missile Systems business,
received a nearly $1 million contract for the Concept
Exploration and Refinement (CER) work, which could extend beyond
the initial six-month award period.

"Raytheon is pleased to be selected for the team that will help
shape this national space exploration priority,=E2=80=9D said Louise
Francesconi, Missile Systems=E2=80=99 president, in a statement.
=E2=80=9COur company has demonstrated its capabilities in systems
engineering and integration, and we can apply our expertise in
large system integration, hardware development, inserting
technology upgrades and mission assurance to space
exploration.=E2=80=9D

The CER contract provides the first opportunity for Missile
Systems to serve NASA as a prime contractor. Other Raytheon
businesses perform work on a variety of space agency programs,
including U.S. National Polar-Orbiting Environmental Satellite
System (NPOESS), the James Webb Space Telescope and the Mars
Rover.

For this CER effort, Missile Systems will lead a team that will
help NASA define the requirements for the moon-to-mars mission,
spanning all elements from the crew transport launch system,
long-duration habitation and surface resources to propulsion
systems, navigation and communications links. The team also will
consider spiral development upgrades that will take Project
Constellation from human space flight in low Earth orbit to
extended duration lunar exploration to human exploration on
Mars=E2=80=99 surface.

Other Raytheon businesses participating in the effort include
Raytheon Technical Services Company, Network Centric Systems,
Space and Airborne Systems and Intelligence and Information
Systems.

Raytheon stock opened the day trading at $35.32, unchanged from
its close yesterday.








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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:46:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 18:51:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:07:41 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:26:00 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:31:17 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind


Sigh, John,

>>Since even the loopiest theories haven't been "dimissed out of
>>hand" - Easton's supersonic pelicans were the subject of
>>extended analysis and discussion (more than they deserved, I
>>must say) on this very List - John is simply being disingenuous.
>>Again.

>They were the subject of extended discussion but have since been
>endless inane remarks by believers, such as your "supersonic
>pelicans" in the above paragraph.

Interesting. Well, actually not very interesting. But it's worth
noting that this is a pattern of yours: concede that you were in
error, but then attempt to mitigate the damage by drowning that
concession in meaningless insults. In point of fact, it was you
who brought up pelicans this time (Magonia 85, p. 15); so if you
don't want to hear about the birds and those who love them, you
have only yourself to blame.

>>>I don't agree. For example, we have the Chiles-Whitted bolide
>>>described as being "structured" - having windows, etc. This sort
>>>of misperception is not uncommon.

>>Uh huh. Chiles-Whitted saw a "bolide" - apparently because
>>you have say it is so. The usual pelicanist approach: wishing will
>>take you wherever you need to go. Here John states a dubious
>>proposition as if it were an established fact, then goes on to
>>declare a claim as undeniably true based on what you have just
>>invented.

>Not an esatablished fact, Jerry, just a rational hypothesis -
>certainly better than the notion of an alien spacecraft with
>rows of windows.

The problem is that you are claiming, on the basis of nothing
other than your preferred set of beliefs, that the idea that
Chiles-Whitted saw a spaceship is inherently irrational. That
point of view, right or wrong, was held by some demonstrably
rational people in Project Sign and elsewhere. It's only the
lazy polemical style of the pelicanist that pretends that
rational persons can come to only one conclusion - of course,
the one that makes the pelicanist feel warm and fuzzy all over.

>>For the more seriously inclined, I urge a reading of Chapter 4
>>of my book Strange Skies (Citadel, 2003) for an examination of
>>Chiles-Whitted's still puzzling sighting, plus similar ones from
>>the early UFO era. Unlike Harney, James McDonald (whose own
>>massive investigative experience puts most of the rest of us to
>>shame) actually interviewed Chiles and Whitted (separately),
>>writing:

>>"Both pilots reiterated to me, quite recently, that each saw
>>_square_ ports or windows along the side of the fuselage-shaped
>>object from the rear of which a cherry-red wake emerged,
>>extending back 50-100 feet aft of the object. To term this a
>>'meteor' is not even _qualitatively_ reasonable. One can reject
>>the testimony, but reason forbids calling the object a meteor."

>As I said, such misperceptions are not uncommon, and McDonald
>was not an expert in the vagaries of human perception.

And you are even less so. Moreover, you have not a fraction of
McDonald's scientific training (focused in good part on
observations of aerial - in this case meteorological -
 phenomena) and firsthand investigative experience (and neither
do I).

Unlike McDonald, you did not interview Chiles and Whitted. You
simply "know" that UFOs exist only as artifacts of incomplete
information and thus comprise no threat to orthodoxy. Therefore,
you can ignore whatever witnesses say - because by definition
they are in error if they are not outright lying - and wave your
hands (or in this case flap your wings, metaphorically speaking)
and make up anything that serves your purpose, and then apply
flattering adjectives to your rightness and brilliance.

Your assertions, in short, are no more than expressions of self-
affirmation. Rational = what you think. Irrational = what those
who disagree with you think. Misperception = whatever you need
it to be. Incomplete information = what is always out there
somewhere, however undetectable whatever the effort, to undercut
a puzzling UFO sighting.

>>In other words, since UFOs as real anomalies are inconceivable,
>>any other "prosaic" explanation - even the most improbable -
>>will have to do (virtually a definition of the pelicanist
>>approach, by the way). Yet, strangely (or maybe not), just two
>>or three postings ago John was indignantly denying that this was
>>his approach. You've got to give it to the pelicanist: he'll fly
>>wherever the occasion demands, even if the flight path is a
>>bewildering one to any outside observer.

>Any prosaic explanation does not have to do; it's simply a
>question of suggesting the most reasonable explanation, unless
>someone can demonstrate that it must be wrong. Unlike many on
>this List, I believe that common sense is quite useful in
>ufology.

Common sense = whatever John Harney believes.

For the rest of you, let me repeat the salient point: Even Allen
Hynek, who in the late 1940s thought the concept of actual UFOs
unreasonable (as pelicanists still do) and who therefore
invented the bolide explanation for what Chiles and Whitted saw
(the one that John affirms because UFOs don't exist), admitted
it was credible only if one rejected the testimony of these two
experienced pilots on a priori grounds. In other words, this
tautology:

Why did Chiles and Whitted think they saw a UFO? Because they
were mistaken. How do we know they were mistaken? Because they
thought they saw a UFO.

>>This is too stupid and manifestly self-serving to merit a
>>response, and in any event was dealt with in a previous posting
>>or two (yes, I probably should have ignored it then, too; one
>>ought not to be encouraging this sort of bubble-headed
>>rhetoric). Unable to mount a cogent defense, Harney can only
>>repeat himself tediously. I will leave it to readers to decide
>>whether to laugh or cry at the amusing or sad (take your pick)
>>reality that pelicanists have been reduced to discourse this
>>coarse.

>Let's see - "stupid", "self serving", "bubble-headed", and from
>Don Ledger, "dim bulb". I'm certainly getting quite a collection
>of gratuitous insults, aren't I?

Yes, I confess that after all these years of subjugation to the
sort of self-congratulatory rhetoric that passes for
psychosociological/debunking/ pelicanist discourse, my patience
has worn thin, and I sometimes get real crotchety. I don't feel
good about it, but there it is.

Still and all, we haven't even begun to insult you, John. You
guys are so far ahead of us that we "believers" and exploiters
of public credulity for financial gain, not to mention dim
bulbs, fools, religious fanatics, rejectors of common sense, and
irrational thinkers, could never possibly catch up. Again, the
pelicanist principle: one set of rules for our side, another for
the other.

>>>The spurious air of mystery which most UFO authors try to
>>>generate by going on about "true anomalies", etc. may not sell
>>>many copies, but it is apparently needed to persuade publishers
>>>to accept their books.

>>Dreary, coarse, and witless. We are now reduced, once again, to
>>the vile slander that UFO writers (presumably including the
>>undersigned) aren't really sincere, that we only want to sell
>>books (not very many of them, as Harney finally acknowledges,
>>pretending all the while that his argument remains coherent in
>>any sense) even if we ourselves don't believe what we're saying.
>>Laugh or cry? I choose laughter.

>I'm sure you're very sincere, Jerry, and your motives for making
>UFO reports sound - ever so slightly - mysterious are perfectly
>honest. However, we all know, and it has recently been discussed
>on this List, that for a number of ufologists, providing popular
>entertainment takes precedence over serious research,
>investigation or discussion.

Isn't that special? It turns out that, when challenged, you
concede that I am not just sincere but "very sincere." Well,
John, I'm sure that you are "very sincere" in your effort to
make UFO reports sound - ever so slightly - unmysterious. It is
depressing, of course, that we have to resort to such
statements, but pelicanists just can't seem to stay away from
hinting (though often retreating when called on it) that those
who dare hold views different from them do so only for unsavory
reasons, and not out of honest (even if mistaken) conviction.

But let's get specific here:

Which prominent ufologists are essentially insincere, and in it
just for the money and the "popular entertainment"? Names,
please. I don't mean the obvious crooks and liars - you were not
alluding to them, the context makes clear enough - but to the
individuals who have real reputations in this field. And if you
weren't referring to them, why did you bring up the matter of
ufologists' integrity at all? What has that to do with anything
we're discussing, except to distract us into irrelevance?

>>Harney hurls invective at "UFO believers" (note again the cheap
>>rhetoric), then in the same breath concedes that his own beliefs
>>are tautological - in other words, circular in reasoning and
>>thus unfalsifiable.

>Hardly as cheap as "bubble-headed", etc.

Bubble-headed referred not to you, but to an inane argument you
advanced. Please reread. There is a distinction. I have no doubt
that you have intelligent, sensible things to say about many
subjects. UFOs may not be among them, admittedly, but I did not
mean to suggest that you approach all of life with bubbles
between your ears. I am sure, to the contrary, that you don't,
and that on other matters you have worthwhile insights to offer.

>>Not missing a beat, he then, incredibly, goes on to accuse
>>ufologists of "not having a testable hypothesis." Another
>>symptom of the pelicanist disorder we've already seen on
>>display: one set of standards for one's own side, another for
>>the other. In any event, one testable hypothesis, of course, is
>>that unknowns and knowns are fundamentally unalike, a hypothesis
>>which to all appearances has been decided in the pro-anomaly
>>direction, at least so far.

>You need something more definite, that can be tested
>statistically.

Well, why didn't you say so the first time? Are you conceding
now that ufologists do have testable hypotheses, but suddenly
are trying to shift the ground of argumentation hoping that
nobody will notice?

Of course the UFO literature is full of statistical studies with
which those who read it, as I gather you don't much, are
familiar. Obviously the most famous is Special Report No. 14,
but there any number of others, as you may or may not know. (I
have never seen any evidence, incidentally, that you read the
Journal of UFO Studies, where statistics exist in abundance.) I
suggest you seek them out.

>>Beyond that, the canard that ufologists don't produce testable
>>hypotheses was debunked a long time ago (in a paper by the
>>sociologist of science Ron Westrum, whom I promise to quote next
>>time if Harney persists). It is discouraging that pelicanist
>>rhetoric, in this as in other regards, is never retired, however
>>confused, infirm, and enfeebled.

>I'll try to steel myself against the ordeal of having Ron
>Westrum quoted at me.

As some of you are aware, Ron Westrum, unlike the amateur
psychosociological theorists of Magonia, is an actual trained
social scientist and a full professor of sociology for many
years at Eastern Michigan University. He was a close friend and
esteemed colleague of Marcello Truzzi. Westrum has an impressive
publication record on many subjects of sociological interest,
including some illuminating papers on anomalies, society, and
science. No wonder John is reduced to mockery at the mention of
the name. What else could he do?

>>As for the suggestion that there are no patterns in UFO data,
>>which is what I suppose Harney means by his remark about whether
>>"unsolved UFO reports have something in common," I would be
>>speechless if I could not ask some obvious questions:
>>What is someone who so manifestly knows so little about this
>>subject doing on this List? And, worse, making grand
>>pronouncements about it? Are ignorance of UFO research and
>>embrace of pelicanism a pattern in themselves? Or is the answer
>>not so much ignorance as faux naivete - disingenuousness, in
>>other words? I ask, you decide.

>By "grand pronouncements" you presumably really mean "rational
>arguments"? And do you mean that you want all non-believers
>remove d from this List? You certainly seem to have got rid of
>quite a few so far.

Since I am not a "believer," I'm not sure I know what you mean
by "nonbeliever". Let me give it a shot, though:

As readers of my books are aware, I am a firm advocate of
rational argument and empirical evidence. In Strange Skies,
published last year, I weigh the pros and cons of particular
sightings and, unlike John, do not depend on a priori, even if
undemonstrable, beliefs to draw defensible conclusions. In more
than a few instances, I come to skeptical judgments. When the
evidence does not appear to validate a skeptical judgment, I
leave the question open.

I do not try to argue that "reasonableness" and "orthodoxy" are
synonyms, as John does. I prefer that the evidence speak for
itself, and let it say what it seems to say, to the best of our
hearing of it. If there is any a priori assumption at work, it
is simply the judgment that we don't know everything and that
interesting questions, still unanswered, may be out there. I am
genuinely (or, in Harneyesque, "very sincerely") sorry that the
John Harneys of the world feel so threatened that even so modest
a concession. of uncertainty in a large and complicated world
drives them to lifelong crusades against any hint of heresy.

As someone who rejects the extremes of both credophilia and
pelicanist disorder, I suppose I am best defined as a
nonbeliever, skeptical of both approaches, neither of which has
gotten us anywhere.

So, John, the answer to your question is: no, I don't want to
remove myself - or have other nonbelievers removed - from the
List. Furthermore, I hope that heresy-hunters like yourself will
remain on this List. After all, you guys have played a large
role in the psychosocial history of ufology, and it is always
entertaining and instructive to keep you under close
observation.


Jerry Clark








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 3

               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:50:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 18:53:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:18:49 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:26:00 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind


Kyle,

>>What is someone who so manifestly knows so little about this
>>subject doing on this List? And, worse, making grand
>>pronouncements about it? Are ignorance of UFO research and
>>embrace of pelicanism a pattern in themselves? Or is the answer
>>not so much ignorance as faux naivete - disingenuousness, in
>>other words? I ask, you decide.

>With all due respect, if I'm reading this paragraph correctly,
>it is saying that anyone who knows little about the subject
>should no be a member of this List.

Either you have misread my remark, or I didn't make my meaning
clear. Let me rephrase for you:

People who know little about UFOs should refrain from making
grand pronouncements about them. I should think that is not a
controversial request. After all, I refrain from making grand
pronouncements about quantum physics or economic theory or the
history of ancient Micronesia.

In any event, I was simply needling John Harney, who is of
course knowledgeable but was simply being disingenuous.


Jerry Clark








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 3

                Re: SETI Signal From 1,000 Light Years Away -

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:49:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 18:54:37 -0400
Subject: Re: SETI Signal From 1,000 Light Years Away -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:31:15 EDT
>Subject: SETI Signal From 1,000 Light Years Away

>I figure by the time this gets posted, if it gets posted, the news
>about the latest SETI.nul discovery will be big news and
>numerous posts will be arriving.

>http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14594417%26method=full%26siteid=8
9488%26headline=space%2dcall%2dfrom%2det-name_page.html

>Space Call From ET

>Sep 2 2004

M74 (also known as NGC 628)
January of 2003 a recent supernova (SN 2002ap)
http://www.proaxis.com/~sandstone/Astro/Gallery/M74.htm

http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/aa/pdf/2003/03/aah3813.pdf

The nature of the prompt X-ray and radio emission from SN 2002ap
1420 MHz (70 days after the explosion) are combined with the
high frequency VLA observations of SN 2002ap reported by Berger
et al. 2002)

http://physicsweb.org/article/news/8/8/3/1

Faint gamma-ray bursts on the horizon


John








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   Sep > Sep 3

               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:39:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 18:58:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Shell


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:24:35 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:28:39 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>Sightings of fast-moving, structured-looking phenomena that do
>>not appear to be earthly aircraft are far from extraordinary.
>>They are quite ordinary in human experience and comprise a
>>significant number of the totality of UFO reports. What's so
>>difficult about conceding that rather obvious point?

>What sort of an argument is this, Jerry? Are you saying that
>there is nothing extraordinary about sightings of
>extraterrestrial vehicles, which is the only way they could be
>defined by your description: "fast- moving, structured-looking
>phenomena that do not appear to be earthly aircraft".

>Or are you going to pull your tired old argument that there is
>some other meaning to the phrase "fast-moving, structured-
>looking phenomena that do not appear to be earthly aircraft"
>which somehow avoids the necessity of admitting that you do
>actually believe in the ETH?

On one hand, I agree that people have been seeing odd things in
the sky for thousands of years and have attempted to explain
them using whatever frame of reference they have available to
them at the time. In that regard, UFO sightings are definitely
not extraordinary. UFOs as a Fortean experience certainly
qualify as one of those paradoxically "weird things that happen
all the time."

But in some ways a UFO sighting does qualify as extraordinary,
since they are one of the few things that are seen so frequently
and dramatically yet remain essentially unexplained (not
counting the ball lightnings, the meteors, and other apparently
non-artifactual objects whizzing around in the sky). They are
extraordinary in the sense that they are noteworthy and
memorable to people who are generally familiar with what can
"usually" be seen in the sky.

And the numerous anecdotes of people going all the way back to
the 1890's and the odd airship sightings of strange craft manned
by human beings who cooked flapjacks and didn't know what year
it was, can't be completely dismissed, if only because there are
so many of them. But we still can't say they're extra-
 terrestrial or trans-temporal. We just don't know. Do they
represent peeks into other dimensions, not of sight or sound,
but of mind? Now, that assertion is definitely going to require
extraordinary proof and a lot of it. We're still working on
creating new words to even try to describe this kind of stuff,
much less explain it.









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   Sep > Sep 3

               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:54:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:00:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:24:35 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:28:39 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>Sightings of fast-moving, structured-looking phenomena that do
>>not appear to be earthly aircraft are far from extraordinary.
>>They are quite ordinary in human experience and comprise a
>>significant number of the totality of UFO reports. What's so
>>difficult about conceding that rather obvious point?

>What sort of an argument is this, Jerry? Are you saying that
>there is nothing extraordinary about sightings of
>extraterrestrial vehicles, which is the only way they could be
>defined by your description: "fast- moving, structured-looking
>phenomena that do not appear to be earthly aircraft".

"Extraterrestrial vehicles," huh? Nice try, John. We were
talking about observations of UFOs, which are not all that rare
and hardly extraordinary. Either you didn't understand what I
was saying, or you're trying to change the subject - hoping no
one will notice - from puzzling observation into unproved
hypothesis.


Jerry Clark









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   Sep > Sep 3

               HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings -

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:27:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:04:23 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings -


HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings


Date: September 3, 2004


HBCC UFO Notice: Folks trying to access my website to file a
report will not be able to access the site as it stands right
now. The hosting company is having a problem and my site has
been down for three days now. We have made calls, emailed them,
etc but so far no response to us contacting them. I hope this
can get resolved quickly and the site back up and running again.
But in the mean time I am still taking reports and witnesses can
email them to me at: hbccufo.nul

Thank you, Brian

--------------


Trenton Ontario And Dartmouth Nova Scotia UFO Encounters

Two Canadian reports below:

Hello, I live in southern Ontario and had an unusual sighting
about 4 years ago, and another one just a few nights ago that
was very similar. In the first sighting, I was letting my dog
out and while she was busy, I was just looking up at the stars.
I noticed one star that seemed much brighter than the others, so
I was looking at it. All of a sudden, it started moving very
fast downward directly at me. It still just looked like a big
star, but kept getting bigger and bigger. I became frightened,
and then just as quickly, it appeared to stop, then go back in
the direction it came in. I watched it until it became so tiny
that it disappeared in the night sky.

Then, as I said, a very similar thing happened a few nights ago.
But this time I caught it out of the corner of my eye, and it
seemed that as soon as I noticed it getting bigger, it stopped
and reversed direction till I could no longer see it. I was
wondering if anyone else has reported this.

Additional Information:

Okay, I will try to give as much detail as I can. I think the
first time was either late summer or fall. I remember that there
was no snow, and I don't think I had a coat on. The year was
approximately 1999 or 2000. It was probably around 9 or 10 pm.
It was in the eastern part of the sky. Not directly overhead,
but high up. It just looked like a big star. There was no
discernable shape other than round. It was near the Air Force
Base in Trenton Ontario. I do remember that when it started
going away, there was a plane off to the right. But there are
always planes in the sky around this area.

With the second sighting, I have moved about 10 minutes north
from where I used to live. It looked just the same , and it was
in the eastern sky as well. It was to the left of me at about 10
o'clock in the sky. And it was probably around 9 or 10 pm. It
was dark out and it was August. 2004.

As for your other question, I did have something happen to me
when I was 15. It's kind of a long story, and I tend to be a bit
wordy at times (see I'm doing it now), But for what it's worth
here goes.

I was living in Dartmouth Nova Scotia with my mother and my 3
sisters. I was 15, and my sisters were 13, 9 and 5. I lived in a
trailer park and I had been babysitting. I remember that the
people came home very early and I was surprised at that, so I
was walking home. There was a big turning circle in front of our
trailer, and I was cutting through the neighbor's yard and was
going to walk across the circle to my place. As I was cutting
through the yard, I looked up towards our trailer, and there was
a "UFO" directly above and over to the right a bit . I knew it
was not a plane as it made no sound, and living near Shearwater,
we knew about planes. If I had not looked up, I would not have
known it was there.

There were a band of lights around the middle of it, and they
were going around and around. I had to go directly under it to
get home. I was so scared. So I ran under it and in the house. I
ran inside screaming and hollering that there was a UFO outside.
I cannot tell you what time it was except when I was cutting
across the neighbor's yard, it was dark outside. Now here is the
weird part. And it didn't strike me as strange till many years
later. When I came into the kitchen, my Mom and her boyfriend
were sitting at the table. My two sisters were in the living
room watching TV, and my youngest sister must have been in the
bedroom. I came tearing into the kitchen yelling and probably
hysterical. You would think everyone would come running if only
to find out what was going on. But no, my two sisters just
looked over at me for a second and then went back to watching
TV.

My mom and her boyfriend seemed not the least bit perturbed
about anything. No one would come look at this thing. It was
like they were in slow motion. I kept peeking my head out the
door to see if it was still there. I'm not sure at what point,
but it finally started going straight up, and then just went
away. I watched it till I couldn't see it anymore. No one came
to look at it. My Mom's boyfriend was in the military, and after
it left, he called the base to see if they had anything on
radar. He said they said there was nothing. Now that I'm older,
I realize he was not in any position to ask for or receive that
kind of info from anyone on the base, so he could have been just
lying. Then I went to bed, and that was it. I don't even think
we ever talked about it . My sisters say they don't remember it.
But I do.

I'm 46 years old, and I still remember much of it like it was
yesterday. So there it is. Just recounting it makes me all shaky
inside. Haha. It kind of makes it officially real. If that makes
any sense. I have had some strange things happen in my life, but
I don't think I was ever abducted. Hope this helps your research
in some way.

Thank you to the witness for the reports.

-----------------------

Goodmayes, Ilford, Essex. England UK Large Craft Over Hospital

Date: 1982
Time: In-between 4:00 p.m.-7:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Very very large.

Full Description of event/sighting: My friend (removed) and I
had finished work in the hospital and was on our way home, our
shifts would finish between 4:00 p.m.-7:00 p.m, it was a dark
night and the lighting in the car park was poor, when we got to
the car park we stood talking for about 10 or 15 minutes.

I don't recall if there was a sound or noise but for some reason
I looked up at the night sky then looked back at my friend, then
immediately looked again into the night sky, I said to my friend
something along the lines of "what's that" and then asked him if
he could see it, we stopped talking for a moment and both
looked, then my friend replied "yes what is it" we both stood
staring, trying to work out what it was, we both began to
discuss what we were seeing & tried to rationalize it, we both
agreed it was strange

When we stopped looking at it, I turned around to see if anyone
else had stopped to look, but nobody had, I saw a few people
walking through the car park talking, but nobody noticed.

I looked back at my friend and we carried on with our
conversation, said goodnight and went home. The strange thing is
we only spoke to each other about it once or twice afterwards,
it was never mentioned again. Since that day, I have thought
that maybe it was some kind of reflection, a collection of
positive ions in the atmosphere or something ?

What we saw was something like what you see in films today, it
was an extremely large craft which took up a massive amount of
sky, it was so large that it blended itself into the darkness of
the night sky, there were lots of shapes on the craft which were
suddenly light up by the moonlight. We were directly underneath
the outer edge of it, I know this because with my head tilted
right back I could see the stars, then as I rolled my eyes
forward I could make out the shapes on the craft.

I don't recall seeing any lights on the craft but I do recall it
slowly but constantly moving overhead from my left to my right,
as I looked to my right (the direction the craft was moving) the
shapes were disappearing into the night sky but they were still
coming over from the left, I'm afraid I can't recall seeing the
back of the craft I just remember not seeing it anymore, it was
just passing over and then the shapes blended into the darkness
of the night sky.

Was this a UFO ? Or can it be explained away scientifically ?

This was not a dream it is defiantly a memory, has anyone else
reported something like this ? could you please email me with
your thoughts.

Additional Information:

The craft that my friend and I saw did not have a straight edge
to it, (sharp edge) it wasn't smooth, the shapes went in and
out, it was a craft but was almost like a flying city, some
shapes were suttle, although it was probably very high in the
sky I'm sure these suttle shapes were fairly large, some parts
of the craft along its side went in and out.

This is the exciting part for me, when I read that report you
sent me there were two things that I didn't put in my report
because I thought it may have sounded over the top.

On the side of the craft near to the back end on a section that
went in and was straight for a while, I saw a window that had a
light in the background, or background light, it was as if a
light was left on a lot further down a corridor, causing a soft
light to imamate from it, there was nobody standing at the
window, it was just the window.

The second thing I was only 75% sure of was the sound that it
made, I know this sound was not a sound that you would normally
hear, its a sound that I had to focus my attention to in order
to hear it. When I stood there with Gary looking up at it I
could just about pick up the audible sound, it was a low
frequency humming, a little like the sound that you hear when
standing near a large electrical installation, but much smoother
and quieter.

Many thanks.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Alexandria, Virginia Unusual Object

Date: May 1991 ?
Time: Daytime sighting.

Just happened on your website and thought I'd report a possible
sighting I made about 13 years ago, a Saturday afternoon in May
1991 I think. I was walking in an area of Alexandria, Virginia
in broad daylight with few other passersby present when I
happened to look up at the sky and was surprised to see an odd-
looking hovering object at an undetermined altitude -
 guesstimate 10,000 feet?. Its shape was irregularly rectangular
and apparently flat, nothing that corresponded to the usual
repertory of UFO shapes. Color indefinite against the clear sky:
perhaps gray. No sound was audible from it. I wondered if it
could be a large piece of paper, lower than it appeared at first
sight, but it seemed too rigid and it wasn't drifting or being
wafted about as would paper. It was definitely neither a bird
nor an aircraft: no wings, no flapping, no darting or wheeling.
Instead, it seemed to move about purposefully and slowly in
various directions for perhaps two minutes, and then it moved
away in a straight line, maintaining the same altitude at a
speed now suggestive of an aircraft, accelerating steadily, then
apparently rising and soon disappearing in the distance. This is
the first report I've made of this observation. Am not given to
"seeing things" and this is the only time I've ever seen
anything so inexplicable.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------

Canora, Saskatchewan UFO Flies 25 Feet Over Vehicle

Date: November 15 and 16th 1998
Time: Approx: 6:30 p.m.

Hi Brian,

I was in the vicinity of Canora Saskatchewan (north of Yorkton)
on November 15 and 16th 1998 for business with another person.

The woman who was traveling with me also witnessed this object.
We left Yorkton at about 1830 hours on the 16th to drive to
Saskatoon for the night en-route back to Edmonton. While we were
leaving Yorkton, I told my passenger that the sky was lovely and
it would be a good sky in which to see a UFO. She told me to be
careful what I wished for and we laughed.

The sky was lovely, there was no moon that night, but if you
have ever seen a Saskatchewan sky, you will understand the
immensity of the universe we can see. There were a lot of
meteors flashing and we were enjoying our drive. When we were
about a half hour out of Saskatoon, my passenger said, "What is
that.. is it a plane". I looked to the left out of the drivers
window and about 10 degrees forward and saw an object coming at
us. It looked like it might be a plane from the distance, but
all I could see were the lighted windows. I told her that it
couldn't be a plane and she asked why. I told her that we were
not near an airport and it was coming down to land. Now in the
space of time that we saw this object coming down we had moved
forward to just about directly under it. When it came down into
the farmers field, it was only about 25 or thirty feet over us.
It came down on a very sharp angle. My first inclination was to
hit my brakes but I knew there was a vehicle right behind us who
would have run right into our rear, so I braked and slowed. They
stayed behind us, so I know they saw what we saw, possibly
better. I was focused on the windows which were part of a
circular body. They were large ( like windows in office
buildings) and had pinky red light around the perimeter of each
window. The inside was lighted, but no beings were visible. I
saw what looked like a uniform light yellowy beige background in
the windows. The reason I noted the passenger ( or what would
have been the passenger area in a normal plane) area was
circular because you could see the windows slant both front and
rear as opposed to appearing a straight line.

The object was dark colored and I still cannot figure out to
this day whether it was circular or tube shaped. When it came
down there was no noise and it did not interfere with the
vehicles. It did not land per se, it appeared to hover over the
farmers field and followed it for about a half mile in. There
was a red light at the back of the object. My passenger followed
it with her eyes while I drove and it went about a half mile in
and then hovered there for about ten minutes. She then said it
went up into the sky and went over a cloud and disappeared.

I ran into this woman two years ago at a conference at UBC and
she told me that she has only ever told her daughter what we saw
that night. It happened so quickly and I could not stop to
really observe, so I was trying to stay safe on a road that was
icy while this was going on.. I don't know what we saw. The
people behind us drove up beside us, slowed down and we looked
at each other and then they beat it down the road very fast. I
did not feel any fear, so I did not feel the need to leave the
area quickly. I do know that this object was large and I do not
know if there was a wing span over my van.. as I said I was too
focused on the windows. But I do know that when it went into the
field it looked as if it was the back of a triangle with the red
light in the middle.

Thanks

Thank you to the witness for the excellent report.

-------------------------

Edmonton, Alberta Two Bright Coronas

Date: June 1999
Time: Daytime Sighting

A year later in June 1999, I was coming back into Edmonton from
the north out past the army base. I stopped to watch a jet
because I wanted to see if it was laying chemtrails or
contrails. All of a sudden the jet appeared to be gone and
beside it were two bright coronas that looked jagged parallel to
each other right across from where I had last seen the jet. I
actually got out of my car to look at this. A man came by and
craned his neck to see what I was looking at so he must have
seen them, too. I also think they must have been visible from
the base because it was only a couple of miles up the road. I
watched them for about five minutes. They were about the size of
two quarters held at arms length. They were still there when I
left. I was working and could not linger. They were about the
same height as the jet had been which appeared as a black speck
moving across the sky.

Thanks

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------------

Bathurst and Eglinton, Toronto (close to) Golden/Orange Ball

Date: June 26, 2004
Time: 10:52 p.m.

Hi Brian

I am glad to have found your article. I saw the golden/orange
ball traveling from west to east at 10:52 p.m. from my balcony
and quickly got my video camera. Unfortunately I only caught a
split second of it and it appears as a white light traveling
quickly across the dark sky.

The ball moved at what seemed to be a rather slow steady pace
and it was followed by a long tail.

Then I thought I was seeing double because at a further distance
moving parallel and at the same exact speed was another one.
Although I told many people no one else seems to have noticed
it.

Thank you

Additional Information:

I am located close to Bathurst and Eglinton in Toronto. My
balcony faces south. As I recall it was a very clear night.

The bright light ball with the tail was coming from the west. It
seemed miraculous. The ball seemed a very bright golden light
and the tail seem more like the color of a star. There was no
sound I am on the fourth floor and the ball was at about a 20
degree angle.

To the distance in the horizon another object it seemed like a
mirror image of the object because it didn't seem as bright but
it was traveling at exactly the same speed and parallel to the
ground. Because of buildings and trees I cannot see too far to
the right or left. It didn't seem to be traveling very fast but
it was in a straight line, constant speed and parallel to the
ground.

It gave me time to run into the apartment and nervously get my
video camera. Unfortunately my camera was in a digital zoom mode
and I had trouble locating the object on my lens. I have a very
fast flash of light on my recorder that disappears behind a
building. I think you can maybe see a bit of the second one as
well.

Just to let you know I am a fairly reasonable, responsible
person with my own business. I am not trying to overwhelm you or
scare you off but about 17 years ago I saw three UFO's very
clearly from downtown Toronto. They were very real. They flew
three abreast with absolutely no sound. They were moving
incredibly fast. They were grey on the top half and a light
metallic blue on the bottom half. The image remains with me to
this day.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------------

Houston, B.C. Bright Light Penetrates Top Of Tree

Date: August 12, 2004
Time: Approx: 2:45 a.m.

I talked with a well known gentleman in the local shopping mall
here in Houston, British Columbia. He had some story he wanted
to relate to me. He said he was having a hard time sleeping on
August 12, 2004, so he got up out of bed at around 2:45 a.m. and
wandered out to the kitchen for a drink of water. As he walked
down the short hallway he easily saw the kitchen area and other
parts of the home were lit up in a bright while light. Wondering
what was causing this he went over to the window and observed an
extremely bright white light which was sitting stationary at the
back end of his property. The light was barely above the tree
tops, with the bottom end of it tucked in behind a clump of
trees. What he told me surprised me as the man said the light
rounded out the top of a large tree. Meaning that the light
seemed to penetrate or remove this portion of the tree. (After
the light had disappeared the tree remained intact)

Been totally surprised at this sight, he called one of his sons
who lives on the next five acre parcel next to his and woke him
up so he could also see what his father was looking at. Both
from their separate homes watched the large light hovering in
place. The older man went and grabbed his camera and was able to
capture a shot of this light/object. (I will be adding the
picture very soon).

He said there was not a sound coming from the direction the
light was in, actually he said the early morning was very
silent. Eventually after a short period of time the light just
disappeared, or blinked out.

HBCC UFO Note: Now I know the area well behind the fellows home
as at one time I peeled railroad ties for him. I can tell you
there is nothing back there but forest. There is one gravel road
which leads to the old Equity Silver mine but that is a little
ways away. The witness said the light was right there just
behind the trees.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------------------

Santa Cruz Mountains, California (Bay Area) Object Stayed
Motionless

Date: August 28, 2004
Time: 10:30 - 11:00 p.m.

Just a quick note on something I saw over the Santa Cruz
mountains...

I was sitting in out outside hot-tub at night, we live on
(removed) so there are no streetlights and you always have a
beautiful and clear view of the sky and the stars.

We were sitting there, looking up, and saw a light moving right
to left across the sky (sorry, have no clue about if it was
north, south, etc.) - I thought it could be a very high plane,
possibly a satellite or something... but as we watched it, it
suddenly stopped dead in its tracks, stayed motionless for a few
moments (2 minutes at the most) and then went very fast about a
45 degree turn from its original trajectory... and it seemed
that it went up at that angle, too.... and we could no longer
see it - it was gone.

It was too far off to make out details, but its movement and
suddenly stopping, and then suddenly zooming away at what must
have been incredible speed made me think it might be something
else... and with the reported rash of UFO sightings over the Bay
Area lately, I wondered if I might have actually seen one.

Very curious, do you think this could be anything else? I was so
excited about the though that I might have actually finally seen
a UFO, but want to know if there is a more rational explanation
first. I would love your input.

Thank you for your time.

Additional Information:

Q - What color was the light itself ?

A - It was white, no details, which is why I thought it was
originally a plane flying very high or a satellite (you know
what it looks like when you see a satellite passing overhead...
just a plain white light, too far up to get details...

Q - Can you please describe the appearance of the UFO: shape,
size, distance, color, texture, sound.

A - It was miles up, so like I said, I cannot even guess at
size, no details other than its movement - just a moving
light...

Q - Describe the area in which you made the sighting. Is it near
an airport? An Air Force Base? A military or research
installation of any kind?

A - No, this was in the Santa Cruz mountains in California (Bay
Area). There is only one airport in the immediate vicinity, but
still about a half hour driving distance... (San Jose
International Airport) - Closest Military installation would be
Moffett Field, in Mountain View, about an hour or less from
where I was... these are large residents in the mountains above
Santa Cruz, CA. and it is more wilderness than anything... no
open field, just lots and lots of windy roads, chasms and
trees... At night, it is very dark other than lights from the
houses, but from any house, you can't see more than 1 or two in
the distance... each property is anywhere from half an acre to
10 acres... very beautiful up there... if you look on a map,
find highway 17 that goes from the central bay area (San
Jose/Santa Clara) and follow it to the hills above Santa Cruz...
a long road from the freeway is (removed). This would take you
all the way up to Boulder Creek, CA. You can see from any
internet sites about the area what the area is like if you
wanted to know...

Q - Also did you happen to see any aircraft in the area, just
before, during or after the sighting ?

A - No, I did not... it is rare to see planes in that area....
but it is possible, I just don't know for sure... I don't
generally remember things like planes, unless it did something
unusual...

Q - When you first saw it, was it moving quickly or slow, this
is before it came to a complete stop ?

A - Seemed rather quick and steady in-line movement... but just
stopped. Once it began moving again, it moved what seemed like
twice as fast as it was before... the movement (before it
stopped) was much like a fast moving plane... no noise, and if
it was a plane, too far away to hear anything... it was moving
fast enough to catch my attention... and after, it moved much
quicker..

Q - One more thing, did you happen to notice if you saw a trail
or tail following behind it ?

A - No, like I mentioned, very high up, and other than just a
slight blur of light, no actual trail that I could tell.

Thank you to the witness for the great report.

-----------------------

West Hill, Ontario Rusty-Red Colored Circle Of Light

Date: September 1, 2004
Time: Approx: 5:45 p.m.

A sighting to report to you on Sept.1,2004 over West Hill ,
Ontario.At approx.5:45 p.m. in southeastern direction caught
with the naked eye in eastern Scarborough facing east over West
Hill / Pickering townships observed a Rusty-red colored circle
of light attached with white cigar like features very high in
the rich blue sky.Observed with binoculars detailed object was
in fact like a white rocket with a bright rusty red light behind
it.Had to be at least 20-30,000 feet high or more.Again , like
the last two reports it appeared to be hanging up there and
moving very, very slowly.Observed craft for approx.5
minutes.Lifted binoculars down because of hearing low flying
white jet to look at for 10-15 seconds then viewed back to the
UFO and it was gone.

Thank you to the witness for the report.


Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Home - Phone 250 845 2189
Box 1091, Houston, B.C.
Canada, VOJ 1ZO
email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com
HBCC UFO RESEARCH Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/








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   Sep > Sep 3

                Re: 'Black Triangle' Sightings On The Rise -

From: Nicholas Redfern <nick.redfern.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:20:30 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:07:40 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Black Triangle' Sightings On The Rise -


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:53:26 -0500
>Subject: Re: 'Black Triangle' Sightings On The Rise

>>From: Alfred Webre <EcoRadio.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 15:04:15 EDT
>>Subject: 'Black Triangle' Sightings On The Rise

>>Source: Space.Com
>>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/flying_triangle_040902.html

>>Silent Running: 'Black Triangle' Sightings on the Rise


>From my perspective, it appears media coverage of black
>triangles is on the rise. I wonder about the actual number of
>sightings. There has also seemingly been a rise in the number of
>flying saucers sighted.

>Hard to get good, timely data.







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   Sep > Sep 3

                       Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:46:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:09:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - King


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:35:11 -0500
>Subject: Re: Hungarian UFO Photo?

<snip>

>A camera, no matter how sophisticated, can decide to perfectly
>expose one part of an image, and underexpose the rest.

<snip>

I mistyped this statement. The line should read...

A camera, no matter how sophisticated, cannot decide to
perfectly expose one part of an image, and underexpose the rest.

Pleas excuse the "fox paws". :)


Kyle










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              Re: 'Black Triangle' Sightings On The Rise - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:32:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:10:16 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Black Triangle' Sightings On The Rise - King


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:53:26 -0500
>Subject: Re: 'Black Triangle' Sightings On The Rise

<snip>

>From my perspective, it appears media coverage of black
>triangles is on the rise. I wonder about the actual number of
>sightings. There has also seemingly been a rise in the number of
>flying saucers sighted.

>Hard to get good, timely data.

Hi Tim,

Since so many triangle sightings report the craft flying "low
and slow", and being of apparently immense scale, I wonder why
there hasn't been an increase in sightings from above. Just as a
large, moving triangular area of the sky being blotted out from
the ground would be hard to miss, it would seem too that from
the air, such a moving 'blotting out' of the ground below would
be equally noticeable... especially on a clear night with a
bright moon.

Perhaps even the shuttle or a weather bird might capture such a
craft on film. I haven't seen anything of that sort mentioned.

Very puzzling, indeed.


Regards,

Kyle









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   Sep > Sep 3

               Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 14:35:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:11:32 -0400
Subject: Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To


>From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:35:39 +0100
>Subject: Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To Date

>>From: William Wise <w.wise.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 07:49:51 -0400
>>Subject: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To Date

>>The relatively rapid drift of the signal is also puzzling for
>>other reasons. A planet would have to be rotating nearly 40
>>times faster than Earth to have produced the observed drift; a
>>transmitter on Earth would produce a signal with a drift of
>>about 1.5 hertz per second.

>If this is the case then it ought to be possible to do a bit of
>calculating.

>If the hypothetical "planet" is rotating 40 times faster than
>the earth, then its period of rotation is presumably 24/40 hours
>(that is, 36 minutes). If the starting frequency is always the
>same, we can deduce that during each signal the transmitter is
>at roughly the same point in its rotational cycle, which means
>the intervals between each signal should be a multiple of 36
>minutes.

>It may also be that the transmitter itself (assuming that's what
>it is) is not on a planet at all, but is an artificial satellite
>spinning once every 36 minutes, rather like a lighthouse beam.
>In which case the same consideration applies.


>Cathy

Exactly Cathy!

An orbiting satellite or somewhat stationary homing beacon or
even a ship could be the source not necessarily a planet.

Could be the galaxy is already mapped out for those sailors who
need to find their way around or home.

Just hope it ain't a warning beacon. Or a distress call. Never
know what rocks or 'sirens' await us newbie navigators.


Best,

Greg







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             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:00:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:13:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:26:00 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:31:17 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>In other words, since UFOs as real anomalies are inconceivable,
>any other "prosaic" explanation - even the most improbable -
>will have to do (virtually a definition of the pelicanist
>approach, by the way). Yet, strangely (or maybe not), just two
>or three postings ago John was indignantly denying that this was
>his approach. You've got to give it to the pelicanist: he'll fly
>wherever the occasion demands, even if the flight path is a
>bewildering one to any outside observer.


"Prosaic explanations" are the failure of UFO skepticism. Read:

http://brumac.8k.com/prosaic1.html








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   Sep > Sep 3

                 Re: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:05:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:15:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'? - Maccabee


>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:18:06 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Subject: Re: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'?

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:59:40 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'?

<snip>

>>Venus' position and brightness depend on the relative positions
>>of Earth, Venus and the Sun, all in relation to one another.
>> While easily predicted with simple astronomical programs, "this
>>time of year" gives the false impression it depends on the
>>Earthly calendar alone .. as if Venus were a fixed star.

>>It would be interesting to know who originally came up with that
>>jewel. One might then look at his other arguments.

Whether or not that statement makes sense woudl depend upon
the day of occurence of that particular UFO sighting.

>A couple of times a years Venus will be far away from the Sun in
>the sky - occasions when it is also at its brightest (the third
>brightest celestial object in the sky after the Sun and Moon).
>When seen under the dark night skies on these occasions, as
>opposed to the majority of times when planet Venus is much
>fainter and seen in the brighter dawn or dusk skies very close
>to the Sun, it is an very impressive sight and infrequent
>observers of the sky can easily mistaken it as a UFO.

>What many of us are not aware of is that, like the Moon, Venus
>and the much brighter planets and stars are also visible in the
>clear blue daytime sky when the Sun is also present. One just
>needs to know where to look. I suspect that a few of the
>daylight UFOs caught on video as seen in Brian Vike's hbccufo
>web site by witnesses trying out their new zillion power zoom
>cameras are indeed real extraterrestrial objects - planets and
>bright stars!

I have studied videos of UFO VENUS taken by people who seriously
thought they were videotaping a UFO. As long as the camera
remains focused there is some semblance to Venus.

But typically what the witness does is zoom in for a better look
and then everything goes to hell. Defocused images of Venus can
be truly weird. And, since the witness is expecting that the
zoomed in image will show more details.... the witness is not
disappointed. The image shows lots of details... which have
nothing to do with the planet itself.








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             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:06:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:17:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:38:53 -0300
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:58:00 +0100
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:04:03 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

><snip>

>>I haven't found any cases
>>which seem inexplicable, except those for which the information
>>is insufficient or unreliable. There have also been some very >
>>intriguing hoaxes and I find it amusing that so many ufologists
>>are in denial about these stories being false, even when the
>>evidence is compelling.

>The above is truly an extraordinary claim and frankly nonsense.
>The professonals at Battelle Memorial Institute who prepared
>"Blue Book Special Report No. 14" (Copy available, but beware,
>it is loaded with data) found that they had to label 689 of the
>3201 cases (21.5%) they examined as UNKNOWN completely separate
>and distinct from the 298 (9.3%) which they listed as
>INSUFFICIENT INFORMATION.

>Furthermore they did a quality evaluation of all the cases and
>found that the better the quality of the case the MORE likely to
>be listed as UNKNOWN. They must have had tough criteria because
>only 9.6% were listed as EXCELLENT, yet 35.1% of them were
>UNKNOWNS while only 18.3% of the 525 POOR cases and 15.6% of the
>1298 Doubtful cases were listed as UNKNOWNS. A further 26.6% of
>the 1070 Good cases were listed as UNKNOWNS. The better the
>quality the more likely to be UNKNOWNS.

>Frankly it would appear to be straight balderdash that there are
>no cases with sufficient information that were unexplainable,
>and that the problem was poor quality.

>I suppose one solution as to how you could make such an
>extraordinary claim, backed by no data, is that you have only
>looked at a few poor cases and have rushed to judgement by
>extrapolation to a grandiose claim.

Another solution is the Blue Book version: claim that any case
that can't be explained doesn't have enough data for
explanation. That is, "if there had been more information we
could have explained the sighting."

Of course, "how much" information is needed and how much is
accepted as true tend to be subjective quantities. If you accept
that Arnold saw "something" the he didn't recognize and
therefore reported his sighting you are rejecting the totally
poor witness and outright hoax explanations. The next question
is, what of the other "data bits" or "information quanta"
provided by Arnold do yo accept as true:

the objects flew between Arnold and Mt. Rainier (T or F) Arnold
turned his plane "sideways" and rolled down his window (T or F)
Arnold timed their passage from alignment with Rainier to
alignment with Mt. Adams (T or F) When last seen they were
between Arnold and Mt. Adams (T or F)

and so on. O ne can break any sighting into IQ (information
quanta) and decide which are acceptable and which aren't. If one
is going to reject or modify the quanta, then one should be
prepared to explain why.

Try the New Zealand case for an example sighting(s) as one which
is inexplicable yet interesting








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             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:05:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:18:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:52:07 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind


>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:38:53 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:58:00 +0100
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>I haven't found any cases
>>>which seem inexplicable, except those for which the information
>>>is insufficient or unreliable. There have also been some very
>>intriguing hoaxes and I find it amusing that so many ufologists
>>>are in denial about these stories being false, even when the
>>>evidence is compelling.

>>The above is truly an extraordinary claim and frankly nonsense.
>>The professonals at Battelle Memorial Institute who prepared
>>"Blue Book Special Report No. 14" (Copy available, but beware,
>>it is loaded with data) found that they had to label 689 of the
>>3201 cases (21.5%) they examined as UNKNOWN completely separate
>>and distinct from the 298 (9.3%) which they listed as
>>INSUFFICIENT INFORMATION.

<snip>

>The problem here is not with the statistics but with how they
>are interpreted. It should be noted that the conclusions reached
>by the compilers of Project Blue Book Special Report No. 14 do
>not agree with Stan's interpretation, as they were obviously not
>very impressed with the results of their studies. The last three
>paragraphs of their Conclusions are:

>"It is emphasized that there was a complete lack of any valid
>evidence consisting of physical matter in any case of a reported
>unidentified aerial object.

>"Thus, the probability that any of the UNKNOWNS considered in
t>his study are "flying saucers" is concluded to be extremely
>small, since the most complete and reliable reports from the
>present data, when isolated and studied, conclusively failed to
>reveal even a rough model, and since the data as a whole failed
t>o reveal any marked patterns or trends.

>"Therefore, on the basis of this evaluation of the information,
>it is considered to be highly improbable that any of the reports
>of unidentified aerial objects examined in this study represent
>observations of technological developments outside the range of
>present-day scientific knowledge."

It is amazing how application of "logic" can lead to any desired
answer... almost.

In the conclusion the writers were essentially saying that,
despite all the time and effort they put into analyzing 3201
individual sighting reports, 12 of which were so detailed that
they summarized them and put them into the report, they
essentially **didn't believe any of the witnesses.***

Part of their conclusion, which you stated above, is based on
their analysis of the 12 best cases. They argued that, because
there was no single "model UFO" that would fit all twelve,
therefore, not one of the 12 was an actual sighting. In other
words, because there were several different shapes of UFOs there
are no UFOs. (and also, they lied... to the reader if not to
themselves: there were only a few basic shapes that were
consistent with most sightings)

This is sort of like saying that because there is no single
model for everything that moves through the sky, therefore all
sightings of flying things are faulty.

IMHO they used "forced logic" to arrive at a predetermined
conclusion: they had to convince the reader that the analysis
they carried out was inconclusive in spite of the admitted
statistical fact that they could not explain some 20% of the
sightings!!

It is true that they had no "hard evidence" to work with (other
than, perhaps, the strangely burned grass from the Desvergers
case in Florida, the photos by Rhodes in Phoenix, etc.) or at
least they didn't mention any. That did not mean that there
analysis of the witness testimony leading to the massive
statistical tables was all wrong or useless as they would have
the reader believe.

One of the twelve best cases, case 10, is in my opinion (and I'm
not alone on this) is one of the best ever multiple witness
sightings (Rogue River). We would not even be aware of the
significance of that case (perhaps not of its existence) had it
not been reported in SR#14.








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             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:05:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:21:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Maccabee


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:31:17 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:28:39 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>"Logical"? "Consistent"? How about "orthodoxy-affirming at any
>>cost"? About that, anyway, you have been consistent. "Credulous"
>>I take to mean what other people would judge mere open-
>>mindedness, a posture of which no one will hold you guilty
>>anymore. So you can relax, John. Nobody thinks your head holds
>>any heretical thoughts.

>I have already said that I do not have any fixed ideas as to
>what Arnold did or did not see; I merely said that I thought the
>various theories should be seriously debated, and not just
>rejected out of hand if they seemed likely to lead to a mundane
>conclusion.

The various Candidate Explanatory Hypotheses (CEH, a.k.a.
"theories") to explain the Arnold sighting **have been**
presented, discussed and debated. Some require more discussion
than others.

Even the notorious pelican theory (a successor to the "goose
theory") has received much discussion and analysis (see the
analytical study of bird brightness in the Appendix to the
Arnold case analysis at my web site.) Of the half-dozen CEH
proposed over the years (airplanes, mirages, orographic clouds,
billowing clouds of snow, meteors, birds) each has been "vetted"
. In each case one has to ignor part of the information provided
by Arnold in order to make the explanation fit the sighting.

So, to imply that theories are rejected "out of hand if they
seemed likely to lead to a mundane conclusion" is to trivialize
and misunderstand the nature and goals of investigation and the
analyses of explanations. **After ** a CEH (a.k.a. "explanation)
has been shown to be faulty, then one may discuss it as if it
doesn't work and this discussion may seem, to one who is
unfamiliar with all the discussion leading up to the rejection
of the CEH , that the CEH is being rejected "out of hand."

For example, if someone reading the KA case for the first time
were to propose "mountain top mirage", apparently everyone
(skeptics included) would point out that it doesn't work (for
various reasons) and the "newby" might well think that mirage is
being rejected "out of hand." Said person might be puzzled: why
not give "mirage" a chance? Why reject it without proper
analysis? And so on.

The point I want to make is that the CEH known as "pelicans,"
just as the CEH known as "mirages of mountain tops," has been
discussed. Apparetly many people on this list, the present
writer included, has not been convinced that the pelican CEH
could reasonably explain the Arnold sighting.

<snip>

>>>The sightings are generally not extraordinary, but the claims
>>>made about them by many ufologists certainly are.

>>Not only by ufologists, but by pelicanists and other extremists.
>>Somehow, though, the latter psychosocial response to the
>>phenomenon manages not to attract the attention or interest of
>>self-described psychosociologists. Strange, that. Of course it
>>is always painful to have to subject one's own favored beliefs
>>to skeptical scrutiny.

>What are these "extraordinary claims" made by "pelicanists and
>other extremists"? Do you mean when they dare to suggest that
>some of your favourite UFO stories are hoaxes or misperceptions,
>or that the accounts given by witnesses perhaps may not have
>been entirely accurate?

"Pelicanists and other extremists" commonly propose that UFO
stories are hoaxes or misperceptions. This is not a bad way to
start with any sighting report (most are misperceptions,
comparatively few are proven hoaxes). However, they sometimes
fail to prove (to the satisfaction of others) that their
preferred CEH can actually explain the sighting without major
changes in the sighting (leaving out or changing information
provided by the witness).

Sometimes the CEH requires such a great modification of the
sighting information as to be totally unacceptable.
(Modification of the sighting is the "Procrustean Bed" method of
fitting the sighting to the theory.) When the required
modification is extensive the CEH is then an "extraordinary
claim." For example the claim that Arnold saw "meteorites"
flying by is "extraordinary" (proposed by Klass in the latter
1990's) since meteors traveling in a horizontal trajectory under
10,000 ft would be "extraordinary." Also, meteors travel at
least ten times faster than the objects Arnold saw. If they had
been meteors he would have seen them for a few seconds, not for
over 100 seconds.

So, to make the explanation fit the sighting one would have to
imagine that Arnold was completely wrong in reporting that they
were much lower than the top of Mt. Rainier (meteors are over 40
miles up) and completely wrong in reporting that he saw them for
102 seconds.

>>I must say it is depressing, though I admit hardly surprising,
>>to find that pelicanists even in 2004 are reduced to the
>>hoariest and most dim- witted of cliches: that UFOs exist only
>>because people haven't investigated them or uncovered the proper
>>information. Does being a pelicanist mean you don't have to
>>heed demonstrable contrary facts and evidence anymore? But then,
>>since UFOs don't exist, why bother with inconvenient detail?

>To say something is a UFO is merely to say that it remains
>unexplained, or that explanations offered are considered
>unsatisfactory. However, you seem to imply that there is
>something which unknown reports have in common so that one day
>some new class of object or phenomenon will be revealed and
>acknowledged by scientists, and everyone else, this being what
>we now call a UFO. I don't happen to share that view.

Well, now, this is what it's all about,isn't it? If there were
only one sighting it could be ignored as a historical oddity.
But when similar strange phenomena are reported repeatedly from
different areas of the earth and through the years, one might
logically suspect that something "truly unusual" is going on.

Something common between unknown reports?

What about all the flying triangles we've heard about in the
last 20 years (and reports of similarly shaped objects go back
50 years).








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   Sep > Sep 3

                Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 21:04:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:22:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:50:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:51:25 -0500
>>Subject: Andy Roberts On American Ufology

>Hi, Alfred,

>>"...In America the [ufological] situation is 'very' different
>>because ufology as we know it in the UK doesn't exist.
>>Virtually all that 'does' exist are fantasists and believers of
>>varying hues. Even the once admired ufologists such as Jerry
>>Clarke [sic] have regressed several decades to believer-dom.

>That poor Jerry Clarke guy. If Andy Roberts feels bad for him,
>he must be a sorry soul indeed. I'll pass on Roberts's
>condolences if I ever run into Clarke. I don't recall meeting
>him, but who knows? I may have somewhere, but it's escaped my
>memory. I've met lots of people in my long years in ufology, and
>it's hard to keep track of them all.

Here's another fascinating example of Jerry Clark's refusal to
make a sensible reply if someone spells his name wrong. I
thought it was a one-off when he did it to me. I shall look
carefully for future examples

Did it not occur to Mr Clark, the sub-editors' sub-editor, that
as Andy Roberts's words were from an interview, it might have
been the person who transcribed the interview, or the person who
put it up on the website, who had made this dreadful error? I
doubt that Andy spells out peoples' names as he mentions them,
even though sometimes it might be necessary with his Yorkshire
accent.

>I would assume this Jerry Clarke is related to Andy's pal David
>Clarke; maybe Jerry Clarke is an American cousin. David Clarke,
>by the way, once wrote a generous review (in the venerable
>British journal Folklore) of my UFO Encyclopedia. Of course that
>may have been only because he was unduly influenced by his
>American cousin, who may actually be evil, not just pitiful.
>Perhaps it's just as well that - to the best I can recall,
>anyway - I have not met this Jerry Clarke. He could be one of
>those Satan worshippers, you know. After all, he _is_ an
>American.

Sigh.

--
John Rimmer (or Rymer, Rimer, Rymmer, Hrimr, all historically acceptable)
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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               Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:39:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:24:11 -0400
Subject: Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To


>From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:35:39 +0100
>Subject: Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To Date

>>From: William Wise <w.wise.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 07:49:51 -0400
>>Subject: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To Date

>>The relatively rapid drift of the signal is also puzzling for
>>other reasons. A planet would have to be rotating nearly 40
>>times faster than Earth to have produced the observed drift; a
>>transmitter on Earth would produce a signal with a drift of
>>about 1.5 hertz per second.

>If this is the case then it ought to be possible to do a bit of
>calculating.

>If the hypothetical "planet" is rotating 40 times faster than
>the earth, then its period of rotation is presumably 24/40 hours
>(that is, 36 minutes). If the starting frequency is always the
>same, we can deduce that during each signal the transmitter is
>at roughly the same point in its rotational cycle, which means
>the intervals between each signal should be a multiple of 36
>minutes.

>It may also be that the transmitter itself (assuming that's what
>it is) is not on a planet at all, but is an artificial satellite
>spinning once every 36 minutes, rather like a lighthouse beam.
>In which case the same consideration applies.


Hi Cathy,

This story, which the media announced with great fanfare, is
being vigorously downplayed by everyone who should know
something about it.

While I appreciate SETIs interest in not trumpeting what may be
nothing until they're sure it's something, I'm still a little
confused by the way it has been handled in the media. So like
Roswell...first a sensational headline, immediately followed by
sober disclaimers and cautions not to jump to a conclusion. Like
we're being played...

In a previous thread, the media mention of flying triangles is
peaking as well, with even highly mainstream outlets covering
the story, after a long period of lending it "oddity" status at
best. Of course, the official line is silence...or denial...mad
more disclaimers and cautions about jumping to conclusions.

The media seems to be hungry for this kind of news...or...the
media is being used to generate "buzz". Buzz for what?

Call me paranoid, but this all seems to be leading somewhere...

Could be merely coincidence, but I gave up on coincidence a good
while ago...too easily leads to complacency in my view. Ergo...

Could be nothing more than ratings...UFO news stories always get
a little bounce...but it feels like something more.

Or could it be perhaps preparation for an impending announcement
from JPL or the Mars Express project of the confirmation of
existing life on Mars?

I would think that announcing contemporary life on Mars might
(in some circles) require a little "conditioning" of the
populace beforehand. Perhaps we are being so conditioned for
just such an announcement.

Only a possibility, but an intriguing one.


Regards,

Kyle









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   Sep > Sep 3

                Re: Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 21:27:39 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:26:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch - Miller


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 20:28:40 +0000
>Subject: Re: Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch

>>From: Stuart Miller <Stuart.Miller4.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:12:56 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch

>>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:28:08 -0700
>>>Subject: Zero Point Fields Bernard Haisch

><snip>

>>I have a lot of time for him. But then I would do because he
>>does come over rather as a "believing skeptic". It does make a
>>refreshing change.

>>While not wishing to cast any aspersions though, he isn't brave
>>with it. I recently approached him about doing an interview for
>>UFO Review. He politely declined stating that his web site
>>basically said all he had to say. Such are the pressures of
>>working in academia. Good man though and one to keep an eye on.

>Stuart,

>Just to set the record straight, Bernie Haisch  was on the panel
>assembled by the SciFi Channel that gave a public presentation
>at George Washington University, Washington, D.C., last year.


Dick

Thanks for that.

Then perhaps my interpretation of why he refused an interview is
wrong.

Shame. It might well have been interesting.


Stuart








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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 20:49:04 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:29:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:18:49 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:26:00 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>What is someone who so manifestly knows so little about this
>>subject doing on this List? And, worse, making grand
>>pronouncements about it? Are ignorance of UFO research and
>>embrace of pelicanism a pattern in themselves? Or is the answer
>>not so much ignorance as faux naivete - disingenuousness, in
>>other words? I ask, you decide.

>With all due respect, if I'm reading this paragraph correctly,
>it is saying that anyone who knows little about the subject
>should no be a member of this List.

>Unless I was misled, the only requirement for joining this List
>was that I have an e-mail account from which to send a request
>to join. There was no requirement to provide any credential or
>other proof of any minimally accepted level of knowledge about
>it.

>I figured the discussion and debate would determine (for all)
>who "knew little" or not. I hope I was not misled.

>The current thread has degenerated into accusations of lying, of
>unworthiness to engage in the debate, and a tacit indictment of
>all who know (presumably) less than you. This does not seem the
>quality of debate one would expect from someone who purports to
>be an arbiter of who "knows so little".

Let me interject here (a prerogative of age and experience which
some of the UK skeptibunkers apparently do not respect).

I think you are talking at cross purposes. You are not required
to be an "expert" or highly knowledgable person in order to be
on this List.

On the other hand, it is not exactly becoming for people to
pontificate on this List while pretending to be knowledgable
when they are not.

I think Jerry is right insofar as wondering why unknowledgable
people insist in their pretensions.

 - Dick









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   Sep > Sep 3

                Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 14:14:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:31:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Hatch


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:50:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:51:25 -0500
>>Subject: Andy Roberts On American Ufology

>>"...In America the [ufological] situation is 'very' different
>>because ufology as we know it in the UK doesn't exist.
>>Virtually all that 'does' exist are fantasists and believers of
>>varying hues. Even the once admired ufologists such as Jerry
>>Clarke [sic] have regressed several decades to believer-dom.

>That poor Jerry Clarke guy. If Andy Roberts feels bad for him,

>I would assume this Jerry Clarke is related to Andy's pal David


- - - - -

Hi Jerry:

<ROFL>

I ran into "Larry Hatch" (then a locally known musician) in a
popular pizza joint decades ago.

The fellow told me all about himself (meaning me of course). I
asked him to meet me at the club where I was playing at then. He
showed up, turned around and left when he saw me on the stage.

Amazing.

Best

- Larry










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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 22:47:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:34:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:07:41 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:26:00 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>Since even the loopiest theories haven't been "dimissed out of
>>hand" - Easton's supersonic pelicans were the subject of
>>extended analysis and discussion (more than they deserved, I
>>must say) on this very List - John is simply being disingenuous.
>>Again.

>They were the subject of extended discussion but have since been
>endless inane remarks by believers, such as your "supersonic
>pelicans" in the above paragraph.

>>>I don't agree. For example, we have the Chiles-Whitted bolide
>>>described as being "structured" - having windows, etc. This sort
>>>of misperception is not uncommon.

>>Uh huh. Chiles-Whitted saw a "bolide" - apparently because
>>you have say it is so. The usual pelicanist approach: wishing will
>>take you wherever you need to go. Here John states a dubious
>>proposition as if it were an established fact, then goes on to
>>declare a claim as undeniably true based on what you have just
>>invented.

>Not an esatablished fact, Jerry, just a rational hypothesis -
>certainly better than the notion of an alien spacecraft with
>rows of windows.

Now John of Harney is providing some clear evidence of exactly
the sort of uninformed and highly opinionated commentary that we
gullible believers find hard to accept. The immediately
preceding quote pretty well says it all. Rather than accept that
competent witnesses have seen something extraordinary and
anomalous (they did not use the words "alien spacecraft"; that
is Harney's false representation and further evidence of his
lack of understanding of scientific method) it has to be a
bolide meteor (which also is wrong terminology; bolides are
explosive meteors) even though no meteor before or since has
ever displayed its characteristics.

He goes on to say (part of which I accidentally deleted) that
Jim McDonald was not an expert in the vagaries of human
perception.

And you are? Please advise us of your credentials in that field.
McDonald routinely consulted his colleagues in psychology and
other fields while carefully developing his ideas based on
extensive investigations and interviews, and extremely high
quality scientific work which, again, you appear to know nothing
about.

>>In other words, since UFOs as real anomalies are inconceivable,
>>any other "prosaic" explanation - even the most improbable -
>>will have to do (virtually a definition of the pelicanist
>>approach, by the way). Yet, strangely (or maybe not), just two
>>or three postings ago John was indignantly denying that this was
>>his approach. You've got to give it to the pelicanist: he'll fly
>>wherever the occasion demands, even if the flight path is a
>>bewildering one to any outside observer.

Well said, Jerry.

>Any prosaic explanation does not have to do; it's simply a
>question of suggesting the most reasonable explanation, unless
>someone can demonstrate that it must be wrong. Unlike many on
>this List, I believe that common sense is quite useful in
>ufology.

It is apparently more reasonable by his world view to accept
that meteors can behave and appear totally unlike any meteors
known to mankind rather than to accept that something anomalous
has occurred.

<snip>

>>>The spurious air of mystery which most UFO authors try to
>>>generate by going on about "true anomalies", etc. may not sell
>>>many copies, but it is apparently needed to persuade publishers
>>>to accept their books.

I agree with Jerry that this is totally insulting  and a 'vile
slander'.  Harney apparently has something bordering on a deep
religious belief that we have to be all self-aggrandizing frauds
in order to pretend to beliieve the way we do. I won't return
the insult in kind, but instead will only say that he is quite
mistaken. This should come as no surprise given his demonstrated
track record. I think he is honestly mistaken, not pretending,
and not engaged in some sinister plot to deny all evidence of
anomalies.

Anyone who knows anything about science (and I have my honest
doubts about John) knows that science is far from neatly tying
up all knowledge. There are lots of loose ends and anomalistic
data out there. And it does not serve the goals of science to
ignore the anomalies and insist that pigs can fly in preference
to admitting the obvious fact that a hardcore database of
anomalous UFO reports exists and is worthy of thorough study.
(OK John, drag in the fallacious dichotomy of ET or nothing once
again.)

>>Dreary, coarse, and witless. We are now reduced, once again, to
>>the vile slander that UFO writers (presumably including the
>>undersigned) aren't really sincere, that we only want to sell
>>books (not very many of them, as Harney finally acknowledges,
>>pretending all the while that his argument remains coherent in
>>any sense) even if we ourselves don't believe what we're saying.
>>Laugh or cry? I choose laughter.

>I'm sure you're very sincere, Jerry, and your motives for making
>UFO reports sound - ever so slightly - mysterious are perfectly
>honest. However, we all know, and it has recently been discussed
>on this List, that for a number of ufologists, providing popular
>entertainment takes precedence over serious research,
>investigation or discussion.

Yes Jerry, you're quite sincere, but since a number of
ufologists (undefined and no doubt equally pariahs to us) put
entertainment ahead of science, you (and we) are all mistaken
and by guilt of association culpable in creating a mystery where
none exists, according to Harneyesque ideological certainty.

That's enough to chew on for this time. But, John, please do
some homework.


 - Dick










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   Sep > Sep 4

               Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 18:40:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 08:13:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 21:04:22 +0100
>Subject: Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:50:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology

>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:51:25 -0500
>>>Subject: Andy Roberts On American Ufology

>>>"...In America the [ufological] situation is 'very' different
>>>because ufology as we know it in the UK doesn't exist.
>>>Virtually all that 'does' exist are fantasists and believers of
>>>varying hues. Even the once admired ufologists such as Jerry
>>>Clarke [sic] have regressed several decades to believer-dom.

>>That poor Jerry Clarke guy. If Andy Roberts feels bad for him,
>>he must be a sorry soul indeed. I'll pass on Roberts's
>>condolences if I ever run into Clarke. I don't recall meeting
>>him, but who knows? I may have somewhere, but it's escaped my
>>memory. I've met lots of people in my long years in ufology, and
>>it's hard to keep track of them all.

>Here's another fascinating example of Jerry Clark's refusal to
>make a sensible reply if someone spells his name wrong. I
>thought it was a one-off when he did it to me. I shall look
>carefully for future examples

>Did it not occur to Mr Clark, the sub-editors' sub-editor, that
>as Andy Roberts's words were from an interview, it might have
>been the person who transcribed the interview, or the person who
>put it up on the website, who had made this dreadful error? I
>doubt that Andy spells out peoples' names as he mentions them,
>even though sometimes it might be necessary with his Yorkshire
>accent.

>>I would assume this Jerry Clarke is related to Andy's pal David
>>Clarke; maybe Jerry Clarke is an American cousin. David Clarke,
>>by the way, once wrote a generous review (in the venerable
>>British journal Folklore) of my UFO Encyclopedia. Of course that
>>may have been only because he was unduly influenced by his
>>American cousin, who may actually be evil, not just pitiful.
>>Perhaps it's just as well that - to the best I can recall,
>>anyway - I have not met this Jerry Clarke. He could be one of
>>those Satan worshippers, you know. After all, he _is_ an
>>American.

>Sigh.

"Sigh" is right. I suspect that Mr. Clark is way ahead of you,
Mr. Rimmer, which won't be a surprise to anyone excluding,
perhaps, yourself.

You know very well what this was about.

A suspect and dodgy ufological curmudgeon/blowhard is spouting
off the usual inaccurate character assassinations and "know-
nothing" pouty insult and is being brought to the dock for it.

But you take the opportunity, once again, to cloud the issue
with your irrelevant little literary distractions, insentient
observations, and ridiculous comparisons.

How Rimmer-like, Sir.

alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net










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   Sep > Sep 4

                              SETI False Alarm

From: William Bolt <ab5sy.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 17:06:29 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 08:18:16 -0400
Subject: SETI False Alarm


SETI False Alarm

After 2 hours of careful study of all available data tossed
about the Internet. I have, after considerable calculations of
the static picked up by my shortwave receiver during the hours I
usually listen to The Dr. Gene Scott Program, concluded that
the signals heard by SETI are a result of gas discharges from
Pelecanus while attempting to challenge Ufologist in serious
debate of which said Pelecanus is any of a gentis of large web-
footed birds with a very large bill and distensible guiar pouch
in which they often place their foot.

Astronomy discussion groups have been abuzz over an article in
the September 1st issue of the British magazine New Scientist,
titled "Mysterious signals from 1000 light years away."

The article describes a possible extraterrestrial signal that
has been turned up by the SETI.nul project.

Alas, the story is unfounded; the signal in question is only
what's expected to happen at random from time to time in a data
base as massive as SETI.nul's.

Dan Werthimer, science director of SETI.nul, told the BBC "It's
all hype. We don't have anything we are excited about."

In fact the signal has been correctly described on SETI.nul's
Web site for many months.








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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:53:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 08:20:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - King


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 20:49:04 +0000
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:18:49 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:26:00 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>


>Let me interject here (a prerogative of age and experience which
>some of the UK skeptibunkers apparently do not respect).

>I think you are talking at cross purposes. You are not required
>to be an "expert" or highly knowledgable person in order to be
>on this List.

>On the other hand, it is not exactly becoming for people to
>pontificate on this List while pretending to be knowledgable
>when they are not.

>I think Jerry is right insofar as wondering why unknowledgable
>people insist in their pretensions.


Thank you Dick,

Comments graciously accepted. I hope I wasn't pontificating. I
was definitely not trying to be unbecoming. Maybe more defensive
than pretentious. Either way, all is understood now.

I mistook Jerry's statement for something more broad than it
was.


Sincere Regards,

Kyle








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                Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:58:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 08:22:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 21:04:22 +0100
>Subject: Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:50:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Andy Roberts On American Ufology

<snip>

>Here's another fascinating example of Jerry Clark's refusal to
>make a sensible reply if someone spells his name wrong. I
>thought it was a one-off when he did it to me. I shall look
>carefully for future examples

>Did it not occur to Mr Clark, the sub-editors' sub-editor,
>that as Andy Roberts's words were from an interview, it might
>have been the person who transcribed the interview, or the
>person who put it up on the website, who had made this dreadful
>error? I doubt that Andy spells out peoples' names as he
>mentions them, even though sometimes it might be necessary with
>his Yorkshire accent.

Fascinating indeed, John. Sigh.


Jerry Clark









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                    77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 21:59:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 08:29:52 -0400
Subject: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri?


More news articles about science translated so that the average
Joe and Jane can understand should be published regularly.

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/08/15/tem_skywatching15.html

This has some great examples using models that are easy to
visualize and experiment with.

Of note to me is how it states that with current technology it
would take us 77,000 years to reach Alpha Centauri.

Is this correct? Are we that slow? I recall Mr. Friedman
presenting data that we could do much faster with technology
already tested. If he has a paper on it or if someone has more
info please post.


Best,

Greg








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                     Using Anti-matter For Star Travel?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:11:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 08:31:16 -0400
Subject: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel?


Highly fun article about 'anti-matter' being used for
propulsion.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/08/08/MNG0984OM41.DTL

I had just posted a question about technologies that could make
space travel shorter between distant bodies and found this gem.

It's nice that the news services are doing the science stories.


Best,

Greg








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                        NASA's Starship 2040 Exhibit

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:40:30 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 08:32:56 -0400
Subject: NASA's Starship 2040 Exhibit


Wish I had been paying attention to see what NASA had in mind
for this exciting exhibit.

http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/news/news/releases/2004/04-224.html

Anyone attend? Think NASA is on the right track?

2040 seems too soon for star travel considering we're still
using solid and liquid rocket fuels.....

Unless there's something they're not telling us :)

Hint, hint!


Best,

Greg








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               Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To

From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 12:13:46 +0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 08:34:01 -0400
Subject: Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:39:24 -0500
>Subject: Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To Date

>Could be nothing more than ratings...UFO news stories always get
>a little bounce...but it feels like something more.

>Or could it be perhaps preparation for an impending announcement
>from JPL or the Mars Express project of the confirmation of
>existing life on Mars?

>I would think that announcing contemporary life on Mars might
>(in some circles) require a little "conditioning" of the
>populace beforehand. Perhaps we are being so conditioned for
>just such an announcement.

>Only a possibility, but an intriguing one.

It is amazing how many people are expressing the same
observation and independently coming to this same conclusion.
So, if you don't believe in coincidences.....


Regards

Simon










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                                Cattle Mutes

From: Ted Oliphant <tedoliphant.nul>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:21:00 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 08:41:49 -0400
Subject: Cattle Mutes


[Non-Subscriber Post]


We seem to find a lot of pharmaceuticals in mutilated animals
the last 10 years, anti-coagulents, synthetic barbituates,
formaldehyde and aluminum/titanium/oxygen/silicon compounds and
more. Electrocution is suspected in many of the cases due to
physical evidence (the cow's bodies).

Out of 35 cases I investigated as a cop, the majority of the
female bovines had given birth two weeks prior to being
mutialted. Curiously CJD (Creutzfeld-Jakob Disease) & BSE
(Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy) - Mad Cow Disease - are only
transferred to their calves during birth, not gestation.

There are UFO stories associated with mutes, helicopters are
often reported. Stories about these cases for Science Digest,
Life Magazine, 24 Hours and 20/20 never made it to the public.

Furthermore, career lawmen like former Albertville Chief Of
Detecitives Tommy Cole, and Alabama State Trooper Sgt. Ron
Ogletree have been ordered off the cases and instructed not to
talk to the media

Five years ago I came to the conclusion that some some of these
mutes are related to the epidemiology of BSE. A couple of years
after that, NIDS came to the same conclusion.

So who's doing it?

You have three choices: It's the Aliens, it's tax dollars at
work, or it's the pharmaceutical companies.


Regards,

Ted Oliphant (former Police Officer: Fyffe, Alabama)
Las Vegas, Nevada







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               Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To

From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:53:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 08:43:29 -0400
Subject: Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 14:35:41 EDT
>Subject: Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To Date

>An orbiting satellite or somewhat stationary homing beacon or
>even a ship could be the source not necessarily a planet.

>Could be the galaxy is already mapped out for those sailors who
>need to find their way around or home.

>Just hope it ain't a warning beacon. Or a distress call. Never
>know what rocks or 'sirens' await us newbie navigators.

I meant to emphasize though that this would be testable.

Apparently the signal was recorded on three separate occasions,
so one simply needs to examine the intervals between the
recorded signals and see if they are exact multiples of 36
minutes.


Cathy

[Catherine Reason]








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              Re: HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 02:07:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 12:18:13 -0400
Subject: Re: HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings


>From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:27:04 -0700
>Subject: HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings - 09-03-04

>HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings

>Date: September 3, 2004

>HBCC UFO Notice: Folks trying to access my website to file a
report will not be able to access the site as it stands right
now. The hosting company is having a problem and my site has
been down for three days now. We have made calls, emailed them,
etc but so far no response to us contacting them. I hope this
can get resolved quickly and the site back up and running again.
But in the mean time I am still taking reports and witnesses can
email them to me at: hbccufo.nul

<snip>

Hi Brian:

That's just awful!

Site down 3 days? If its technical, and really bad, their email
may be down with it.

If I may ask, where is your site hosted, and by whom? I just
changed site hosts. I would have gone crazy if my site was down
for the last 3 days. Traffic doubled or tripled over that period
here.

Best

- Larry Hatch









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              Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 06:34:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 13:38:12 -0400
Subject: Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - Hatch


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 21:59:57 EDT
>Subject: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri?

>More news articles about science translated so that the average
Joe and Jane can understand should be published regularly.

>http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/08/15/tem_skywatching15.html

>This has some great examples using models that are easy to
>visualize and experiment with.

>Of note to me is how it states that with current technology it
>would take us 77,000 years to reach Alpha Centauri.

>Is this correct? Are we that slow? I recall Mr. Friedman
>presenting data that we could do much faster with technology
>already tested. If he has a paper on it or if someone has more
>info please post.


Hello Greg:

Before I went back to college for math and science, still
working as a musician, I got a LOT of value from the wonderful
and accessible explanations of Isaac Asimov.

Granted he was pretty closed minded about UFOs, I can forgive
that somehow. Everything else he wrote made sense to me. Unlike
others, possibly a bit shaky in their understanding of
scientific matters, Azimov was unafraid to explain them clearly
to the layman. For that if nothing else, he is sorely missed.

Unless I have it wrong, I think Stan was pointing out 'time-
dilation' .. a weird Einsteinian effect where time passes
differently for an astronaut at high (relativistic) speeds. 77k
years may pass on Earth before the traveler gets there, but some
fraction of that elapses on the space ship, if only it can
approach light-speed.

To do that, would seem impossible given our present technology,
but Stan again pointed out we don't know what tomorrow's tech
will bring.

It is my fondest hope that some bright kids will find a dazzling
new source of energy, and the physics to go with it. I hope I
live long enough to see the day.

Think how long it took get from China to France say, in 1492.
Now you can ride the train (they won't let you smoke on the
plane) and drink beer the whole way! Three days maybe. Very
doable if your liver is up to par.

I don't know why people seems to shy away from the ETH / space
travel theory of UFOs BTW. Of all the _anomalous_ theories
tossed around, ETH seems the least unlikely to me.

What I don't see are ETs, meaning natural living beings from
afar, coming here in person.

Fully automated (and necessarily autonomous) robotic entities,
perhaps part biological, part 'electronic' or equivalent-but-
better, would make more sense. They could monitor, sample,
measure and take specimens .. digest the information gained, and
send it all back at light speed.

If this has any merit at all, they would work in an efficient
and totally impersonal manner. To avoid contaminating the
sample, a well known scientific caution even here, utmost
secrecy, caution, isolation and even camouflage would be a prime
requirement. A total denial of information from them to us in
effect. Earthly governments would be as much in the dark as
anyone else in tis case, and would act accordingly. Does any of
this ring a bell?

I don't see ETs trying to 'take over' ala' Hollywood either.
What for? Monkeys in the zoo can argue whether humans are
'trying to take over'.

The only good that does is at the box office. The teen couples
are given an excuse to grab each other as tentacled monsters
emerge from a Flying Saucer (burp!)

ET could stay at home and smell the roses. Having presumably
controlled the aging process, they could smell a lot of roses,
see beyond a 30 year mortgage, and patiently await the
scientific results of their distant probes.

Meanwhile, they could study the reports of probes sent much much
earlier, and enjoy translations of copied sci-fi movies and sit-
coms, news reports and gawd-knows-what-else. They might even
gain insights into their own partly forgotten past, vicariously,
relived elsewhere in real-time.

Ah, but there I go again. Two Warsteiner Bieren (or a dozen) and
I can speculate with the worst of them. Maybe I should write a
little science fiction myself. There's no money in it, but
banging away on an unsaleable database doesn't pay any bills
either.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch










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               Re: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 07:07:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 13:40:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel? - Hatch


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:11:08 EDT
>Subject: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel?

>Highly fun article about 'anti-matter' being used for propulsion.

>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/08/08/MNG0984OM41.DTL

>I had just posted a question about technologies that could make
>space travel shorter between distant bodies and found this gem.

>It's nice that the news services are doing the science stories.


Hello Greg:

That's a good article. Fun and nicely written. I didn't learn
anything new, but I'm glad to see Keay Davidson mention Dirac, a
most interesting Frenchman, who predicted antimatter well before
it was actually discovered, based on theory alone. Davidson is
one of my favorite local writers BTW.

As for practical uses (and for now ignoring little formalities
like NON-LETHAL CONTAINMENT) .. I suggest a commercial product,
the anti-matter cigarette lighter.

Perhaps some Japanese ink-jet manufacturer could perfect the
nozzle... a tough job .. it would have to emit one anti-molecule
at a time. As soon as that collided with a regular tobacco
molecule, WHAM your smoke is lit. A handful of anti- molecules
and you have the cleanest exploding cigar in town.

When non-flint (piezo-crystal) cigarette lighters came out, my
Chinese bartender just had to have one, even at some crazy
price. There is always a market for snazzy new stuff.

Imagine the safety warning!  "Aim carefully or you will
annihilate your nose before you die of cancer, emphysema, carbon
tetrazini, yadda yadda!"

Even if this comes to pass, and I doubt it, I can make one safe
prediction: The warning label will not come off without ruining
your fingernails and making a sticky unpleasant mess.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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              Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 09:16:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 13:41:41 -0400
Subject: Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - Shell


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 21:59:57 EDT
>Subject: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri?

>More news articles about science translated so that the average
>Joe and Jane can understand should be published regularly.

>http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/08/15/tem_skywatching15.html

>Of note to me is how it states that with current technology it
>would take us 77,000 years to reach Alpha Centauri.
>Is this correct? Are we that slow?

No way we're that slow. If we were motivated (like if we found
an Earth-like planet spinning around one of the Centaruis
beaming out alien sitcoms), we could cobble together a decent
ion drive or solar sail or version of Project Orion that would
get us there faster. Probably not a manned ship, but our smart
computers are really a kind of silicon-based evolutionary
offspring, so that counts.

The trick with any of these computations, though, is that
"current technology" thing. Every few decades or centuries we'd
likely come up with some kind of propulsion much better than we
have now that would pass whatever we sent before. Or better yet,
pick them up along the way. My personal guess is that we could
get to the Centauris in around 150 years if we really tried, and
certainly within planet-spotting distance in 25 years or less.
Unless the Centaurans and their huge flying triangles get to us
first.








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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 14:30:19 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 13:43:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:53:36 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 20:49:04 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>Let me interject here (a prerogative of age and experience which
>>some of the UK skeptibunkers apparently do not respect).

>>I think you are talking at cross purposes. You are not required
>>to be an "expert" or highly knowledgable person in order to be
>>on this List.

>>On the other hand, it is not exactly becoming for people to
>>pontificate on this List while pretending to be knowledgable
>>when they are not.

>>I think Jerry is right insofar as wondering why unknowledgable
>>people insist in their pretensions.

>Thank you Dick,

>Comments graciously accepted. I hope I wasn't pontificating. I
>was definitely not trying to be unbecoming. Maybe more defensive
>than pretentious. Either way, all is understood now.

>I mistook Jerry's statement for something more broad than it
>was.


Kyle,

I was not alluding to you re: pontificating, though in my
hastily composed message it may have sounded that way. In fact,
I was alluding to the two UK Pelican Johns, especialy John of
Harney (John of Rimmer occasionally acknowledges his fallibility
and shows some sense of humor and modesty).


  - Dick








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                   Re: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'? - Gross

From: Patrick Gross <Pgrsel.nul>
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 08:24:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 08:41:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'? - Gross


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:05:53 -0400
>Subject: Re: Venus' 'Erratic Movements'?

>I have studied videos of UFO VENUS taken by people who seriously
>thought they were videotaping a UFO. As long as the camera
>remains focused there is some semblance to Venus.

>But typically what the witness does is zoom in for a better look
>and then everything goes to hell. Defocused images of Venus can
>be truly weird. And, since the witness is expecting that the
>zoomed in image will show more details.... the witness is not
>disappointed. The image shows lots of details... which have
>nothing to do with the planet itself.

Indeed.

I have published some examples here:

http://www.ufologie.net/ufology/dv01.htm

Best,

Patrick Gross








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                   Re: UFO UpDate: SETI False Alarm - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 11:16:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 08:43:16 -0400
Subject: Re:  UFO UpDate: SETI False Alarm - King


>From: William Bolt <ab5sy.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 17:06:29 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: SETI False Alarm

>SETI False Alarm

>After 2 hours of careful study of all available data tossed
>about the Internet. I have, after considerable calculations of
>the static picked up by my shortwave receiver during the hours I
>usually listen to The Dr. Gene Scott Program, concluded that
>the signals heard by SETI are a result of gas discharges from
>Pelecanus while attempting to challenge Ufologist in serious
>debate of which said Pelecanus is any of a gentis of large web-
>footed birds with a very large bill and distensible guiar pouch
>in which they often place their foot.

<snip>

Man, there's a blast from the past. I haven't heard Gene Scott's
name mentioned in many moons. I kinda miss Dr. Gene. Thanks for
rekindling a fond, if bizarre, memory! A rare "bird", indeed!

"It's all hype. We don't have anything we're excited about..."

Hmmm...exactly what they WANT us to think...? *wink*

Thanks again!


Kyle







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                          Re: Cattle Mutes - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 12:44:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:15:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes - Boone


>From: Ted Oliphant <tedoliphant.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:21:00 -0700
>Subject: Cattle Mutes

>Non-Subscriber Post]

<snip>

>Furthermore, career lawmen like former Albertville Chief Of
>Detecitives Tommy Cole, and Alabama State Trooper Sgt. Ron
>Ogletree have been ordered off the cases and instructed not to
>talk to the media

>Five years ago I came to the conclusion that some some of these
>mutes are related to the epidemiology of BSE. A couple of years
>after that, NIDS came to the same conclusion.

>So who's doing it?

>You have three choices: It's the Aliens, it's tax dollars at
>work, or it's the pharmaceutical companies.

>Regards,

>Ted Oliphant (former Police Officer: Fyffe, Alabama)
>Las Vegas, Nevada


Thank you Ted Oliphant! The whole cattle mutilation thing never
made sense to me until I read the NIDS report. Now that I've
read your post that you've independently came to the same
conclusion prior to NIDS' report that shuts the case for me.

This is alarming news no-end. Jeff Rense had been telling me
about BSE and cattle mutilations for YEARS and I didn't catch
on til the NIDS report. I saw Linda Moulton-Howe's documentary
and it's the scariest damned thing I've ever watched.

Your research and conclusions are good enough for me. It's high
time the public gets the truth at how scary BSE is.

I recall how some farmers would come to our forum on AOL and
would be madder than a junk yard dog at losing a head of cattle
and that caught our attention. They were angry!

They'd felt that the authorities were bs'ing around and not
doing their jobs.

If you or other members of law enforcement were told not to talk
it's time to address those threats as to who has the authority
to tell you cops, who've taken an oath to uphold the law, not to
uphold the law.

We, the People have every right to know except in areas of
national security. Is this a matter of national security?

Reason I'm bringing this up is because just last night I got a
message from a law enforcement officer colleague.

It was no where near good news regarding the UFO issue. So after
reading your post I can see why the cops who risk their butts
everyday are also victims of these sinister doings and there
needs to be a conference of law enforcement officers in regard
to these matters to make sure they don't end up in harm's way.
It's bad enough they have to put up with the public's everyday
nonsense, violence and stupidity not to mention the heavily
armed organized crime groups and gangs, now they have to worry
about the 'unknown' and have to deal with threats from those
claiming authority over our Constitutional rights?

No way.


Best,

Greg








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               Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 11:46:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:16:52 -0400
Subject: Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To


>From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 12:13:46 +0800
>Subject: Re: SETI's Most Interesting Candidate Signal To Date

<snip>

>It is amazing how many people are expressing the same
>observation and independently coming to this same conclusion.
>So, if you don't believe in coincidences.....


Simon,

I hasten to point out that many groups have felt the same sense
of impending revelation in the past...Heaven's Gate, ZetaTalk,
etc. They were, presumably, mistaken.

But my lack of faith in the mundanity of coincidence still
leaves me with that vexing question, where is it leading?

In my darkest heart I suspect a diversionary tactic, designed to
distract a weary electorate from more pressing and less
coincidental developments.

I allow that age may have turned some of my wonder to cynicism,
however. But thankfully not all.


Regards,

Kyle








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                Re: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 13:41:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:19:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel? - King


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 07:07:09 -0700
>Subject: Re: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:11:08 EDT
>>Subject: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel?

>>Highly fun article about 'anti-matter' being used for propulsion.

>>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/08/08/MNG0984OM41.DTL

>>I had just posted a question about technologies that could make
>>space travel shorter between distant bodies and found this gem.

>>It's nice that the news services are doing the science stories.

>That's a good article. Fun and nicely written. I didn't learn
>anything new, but I'm glad to see Keay Davidson mention Dirac, a
>most interesting Frenchman, who predicted antimatter well before
>it was actually discovered, based on theory alone. Davidson is
>one of my favorite local writers BTW.

>As for practical uses (and for now ignoring little formalities
>like NON-LETHAL CONTAINMENT)... I suggest a commercial product,
>the anti-matter cigarette lighter.

>Perhaps some Japanese ink-jet manufacturer could perfect the
>nozzle... a tough job .. it would have to emit one anti-molecule
>at a time. As soon as that collided with a regular tobacco
>molecule, WHAM your smoke is lit. A handful of anti- molecules
>and you have the cleanest exploding cigar in town.

>When non-flint (piezo-crystal) cigarette lighters came out, my
>Chinese bartender just had to have one, even at some crazy
>price. There is always a market for snazzy new stuff.

>Imagine the safety warning! "Aim carefully or you will
>annihilate your nose before you die of cancer, emphysema, carbon
>tetrazini, yadda yadda!"

>Even if this comes to pass, and I doubt it, I can make one safe
>prediction: The warning label will not come off without ruining
>your fingernails and making a sticky unpleasant mess.


Larry,

Should your idea actually be "hatched", I'd suggest you make
your money fast... within 6 months they'd be available on ebay
for $24.99US - a gross. But.....

Imagine pouring a Warsteiner and lighting up a fine puro on an
anti-matter propelled craft. You head off to tour the galaxy,
come back 3000 years later, your stein is still half-full and
you haven't even dropped ash from your cheroot. Now that'd be
something. Shame is they probably wouldn't allow smoking...drat
it all.


A grand anti-Floridian Saturday to you,

Kyle







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              Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 13:56:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:21:03 -0400
Subject: Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - King


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 06:34:43 -0700
>Subject: Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri?

<snip>

>Before I went back to college for math and science, still
>working as a musician, I got a LOT of value from the wonderful
>and accessible explanations of Isaac Asimov.

<snip>

>Ah, but there I go again. Two Warsteiner Bieren (or a dozen) and
>I can speculate with the worst of them. Maybe I should write a
>little science fiction myself. There's no money in it, but
>banging away on an unsaleable database doesn't pay any bills
>either.


Larry,

If Ufology needs a Hunter S. Thompson, and I think it just
might, I shall place your name in nomination.

Larry "Down the" Hatch - Gonzo Ufologist

Just the T-shirt could be a hit... pay a bill or two.


Best,

Kyle







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             Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 20:08:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:22:24 -0400
Subject: Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - Shough


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 21:59:57 EDT
>Subject: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri?

>Of note to me is how it states that with current technology it
>would take us 77,000 years to reach Alpha Centauri.

>Is this correct? Are we that slow?

A quick bit of arithmetic shows that someone has simply taken
the earth escape velocity achieved by chemical rockets and
divided this, blindly, into the distance to Alpha Centauri.

The "current technology" referred to evidently just means
"currently deployed engineering" not our latent technical
capability.








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               Re: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel? - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 20:19:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:23:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel? - Shough


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 07:07:09 -0700
>Subject: Re: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel?

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:11:08 EDT
>>Subject: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel?

>That's a good article. Fun and nicely written. I didn't learn
>anything new, but I'm glad to see Keay Davidson mention Dirac, a
>most interesting Frenchman, who predicted antimatter well before
>it was actually discovered, based on theory alone.

Larry,

Whilst it pains me - from my eyrie in Scotland - to have to
uphold the honour of England, I should point out that Paul Dirac
was an Englishman. He was born in Bristol in 1902 and was
educated at Cambridge, beming Prof. of Math there in 1932. He
'merely' had a French parent.;-)


Martin Shough








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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 21:43:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:25:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer


>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:24:35 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:28:39 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>Sightings of fast-moving, structured-looking phenomena that do
>>>not appear to be earthly aircraft are far from extraordinary.
>>>They are quite ordinary in human experience and comprise a
>>>significant number of the totality of UFO reports. What's so
>>>difficult about conceding that rather obvious point?

>>What sort of an argument is this, Jerry? Are you saying that
>>there is nothing extraordinary about sightings of
>>extraterrestrial vehicles, which is the only way they could be
>>defined by your description: "fast- moving, structured-looking
>>phenomena that do not appear to be earthly aircraft".

>"Extraterrestrial vehicles," huh? Nice try, John. We were
>talking about observations of UFOs, which are not all that rare
>and hardly extraordinary. Either you didn't understand what I
>was saying, or you're trying to change the subject - hoping no
>one will notice - from puzzling observation into unproved
>hypothesis.

As in so many of Jerry's posts, the important thing is the one
bit he doesn't reply to. As I managed to spell his name
correctly, the only way he can avoid answering is by snipping
the awkward bit. My paragraph following the one he deigns to
reproduce above, read:

"Or are you going to pull your tired old argument that there is
some other meaning to the phrase "fast-moving, structured-
looking phenomena that do not appear to be earthly aircraft"
which somehow avoids the necessity of admitting that you do
actually believe in the ETH?"

No matter what he pretends, neither I nor Jerry were talking
about "observations of UFOs" per se, but about a particular sub-
category - those UFOs which, in Jerry's own words, represent
"fast-moving, structured-looking phenomena that do not appear to
be earthly aircraft".

I would maintain that such observations are indeed
"extraordinary", and at one time Jerry thought so too, but he
now seems to include them in the thousands of observations of
"lights in the sky" and other less distinctive sightings.

Other pro-ETH ufologists have drawn the conclusion that these
reports do actually represent "extraterrestrial vehicles" and
that the accounts give by eye-witnesses are accurate
descriptions of what they had seen, and although I would argue
with this, it does represent a logical interpretation of the
phenomenon as described.

But Jerry is an "almost-ETHer", a "not-quite-believer", so he
ends up in the ludicrous position of describing something - the
famous "fast- moving, structured-looking phenomena that do not
appear to be earthly aircraft" - that to me, and I suspect most
other people on this List, is capable of having only one
interpretation, yet when confronted with this interpretation
desperately backs off, shouting "not me, guv, that's not what I
said, you can't pin that one on me!"

Disingenuous, moi?

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 21:50:26 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:26:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 14:30:19 +0000
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

><snip>

>>>Let me interject here (a prerogative of age and experience which
>>>some of the UK skeptibunkers apparently do not respect).

I am so flattered by the impression that seems to be abroad on
this List that we UK skeptibunkers are young whippersnappers
with little experience of life, the universe and everything.
Especially in the week that I became eligible to collect my old
persons free London Transport travel pass, and government winter
fuel allowance for doddery old codgers who are likely to die of
hypothermia.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 22:08:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:28:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:39:55 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:24:35 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>On one hand, I agree that people have been seeing odd things in
>the sky for thousands of years and have attempted to explain
>them using whatever frame of reference they have available to
>them at the time. In that regard, UFO sightings are definitely
>not extraordinary. UFOs as a Fortean experience certainly
>qualify as one of those paradoxically "weird things that happen
>all the time."

>But in some ways a UFO sighting does qualify as extraordinary,
>since they are one of the few things that are seen so frequently
>and dramatically yet remain essentially unexplained (not
>counting the ball lightnings, the meteors, and other apparently
>non-artifactual objects whizzing around in the sky). They are
>extraordinary in the sense that they are noteworthy and
>memorable to people who are generally familiar with what can
>"usually" be seen in the sky.

I pretty much agree with what you're saying here, Tim. the
problem is that the description "UFO" means more or less what
the person using it wants it to mean (shades of Humpty Dumpty).
Certainly UFOs in the purely literal sense of ostensible objects
in the sky that cannot be identified by the person seeing them,
have been around a long time, and are frequently reported.

In the current debate the problem has been that Jerry has
conflated this broader sense of "UFO" with a very specific class
of phenomenon - to use his own words (which I now have saved in
my word-processor's memory) "fast-moving, structured-looking
phenomena that do not appear to be earthly aircraft". By doing
this he is able to claim that the latter phenomena are no more
extraordinary than the thousands of less interesting reports
that fill our sightings catalogues, and by denying that these
are "extraordinary claims" he is able to fend off the demand for
"extraordinary evidence"

>And the numerous anecdotes of people going all the way back to
>the 1890's and the odd airship sightings of strange craft manned
>by human beings who cooked flapjacks and didn't know what year
>it was, can't be completely dismissed, if only because there are
>so many of them. But we still can't say they're extra-
> terrestrial or trans-temporal. We just don't know. Do they
>represent peeks into other dimensions, not of sight or sound,
>but of mind? Now, that assertion is definitely going to require
>extraordinary proof and a lot of it. We're still working on
>creating new words to even try to describe this kind of stuff,
>much less explain it.

The irony here is that it was Jerry Clark who did so much to
debunk (in the real sense of the word) many of these sightings
as pranks, tall stories and newspaper space-fillers. That does
not mean however that they are without significance, or that a
residue of them are still very puzzling.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm









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                              Our Twin Planet?

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 18:55:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:33:09 -0400
Subject: Our Twin Planet?


Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.

Source: Science Frontiers, No. 155, Sep-Oct, 2004, p. 2

http://www.science-frontiers.com

ASTRONOMY

Our twin planet?

P. Lowell wrote his book, Mars An Abode Of Life in 1908, but
even then astronomers viewed Venus as the earth's twin. Its size
was about the same and, like the earth, it was canopied by
fluffy clouds. Warmed by a closer sun, the surface of Venus was
sure to be a tropical paradise teeming with life. Nevertheless,
early science fiction writers tended to follow Lowell's lead, as
did E.R. Burroughs with his *Warlords of Mars*.

The science-fiction writers were far off the mark about Mars,
and the astronomers even more so about Venus. When scrutinized
by spacecraft, Venus had a scorched surface at 470=B0C and an
atmosphere high in unbreathable carbon dioxide. So much for
Venus being the verdant twin of earth!

Rather than similarities, scientists have compiled a dossier of
Venusian anomalies that makes this planet the prime enigma of
the solar system.

- Venus spins backwards and anomalously slowly. In fact, it
spins on its axis only once in 243 earth days. This is longer
than its year of 225 days! Venus is definitely a sour note in
the music of the spheres. Why so different?

- The Magellan spacecraft radar illuminated the surface of
Venus through its thick clouds revealing shiny (highly
reflective) mountain tops. Conclusion: the high elevations of
Venus are draped with a metallic "snow" of unknown origin and
composition.

- Venus' sluggish spin led to the expectation of a rather sedate
atmosphere. Instead, the planet's equatorial clouds, 50-60
kilometers above the surface, whip around the planet at
hurricane velocities - 50 times the rate at which the surface
turns. And, at lower altitudes, the Galileo spacecraft found the
atmosphere to be wracked by massive storms of enigmatic origin.

- Given that Venus does resemble the earth in size and
possession of a dense iron core, it would be expected to also
possess an internal dynamo generating an external magnetic
field. This field might be weak due to the planet's slow spin
rate, however, it is essentially nonexistent. Both of its
neighbors, earth and Mercury, have easily detected magnetic
fields, why not Venus. We must chalk up one more enigma for
Venus.

(Muir, Hazel; SEcond Rock From The Sun, New Scientist, p.
32, June 5, 2004)

Comment. Unmentioned in the referenced article and seemingly
totally forgotten by modern astronomers is Neith. Between 1645
and 1892, well-respected observers recorded over 30 appearances
of bright objects close to Venus - some apparently displaying
the same phase as Venus itself. Did Venus once have a satellite?

We refer readers to our *The Moon and the Planets* for
discussions of the so-called "ashen light" of Venus and its
ephemeral "spoke system."


[Science Frontiers is a bimonthly collection of digests of
scientific anomalies in the current literature. Published by the
Sourcebook Project, P.O. Box 107, Glen Arm, MD 21057. Annual
subscription: $8.00.]









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                   Hessdalen - Valley Of Enigmatic Lights

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 21:48:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:35:56 -0400
Subject: Hessdalen - Valley Of Enigmatic Lights


Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.

Soruce: Science Frontiers, No. 155, Sep-Oct, 2004, p. 4

http://www.science-frontiers.com


Geophysics

Hessdalen: Valley of enigmatic lights

Science Frontiers first mentioned the Hessdalen Phenomenon in
1995. (SF#98) Nearly a decade has passed, and many more visual
and instrumental data have been amassed by Norwegian and Italian
researchers. The bulging dossier on the Hessdalen aerial
phenomena - predominately lights but also nonvisual radar
targets - certainly represents the most thorough, science-based
study of what are generally called "noctural lights." There are
no saucer-shaped machines, no alien visitors in the reports. But
we do have [are] hundreds of mysterious lights displaying
incredible diversity.

In general they consist of light balls of many forms and colors,
characterized by pulsations, often erratic movements, occasional
long duration, and intense emission of energy. Their dimensions
range from decimeters up to 30 m. These lights are reported both
in the sky and close to the ground.

The recent 35-page report at hand brims with technical details
derived from a wide range of instruments. We must skip over
these for want of space. Instead, we use as suggestive summaries
the subsection headings in a part of the report entitled
"Phenomenological Picture and Discussion." Each of the following
headings is followed by observations and interpretations.

- Uniformly illuminated, solid-like light balls.

- Thermally self-regulated clusters of light balls.

- Strongly and rapidly variable light phenomena.

- Ejection of mini light balls.

- High radiant power (one cluster radiated 19 kilowatts!).

- Jerky kinematic behavior.

- Geometric and symmetric shapes.

- Flash-like lights and possible Earth-sky physical
  interactions.

- Low-luminosity emission (seen with night-vision equipment).

- Doppler VLF signals.

- Slightly radioactive powder and metallic particles.

Even after two decades of casual and intense, systematic
instrumental[ed] observations, the research teams can only
conclude that they have witnessed elusive, unpredictable
phenomena of unknown origin.

(Theodorani, Massimo; "A Long-Term Scientific Survey of the
Hessdalen Phenomenon," Journal of Scientific Exploration,
18:217, 2004)

Comments. A few brave scientists have studied similar,
geographically focussed noctural lights, of which there are
dozens. In particular, the Marfa lights (Texas), the Brown
Mountain lights (North Carolina), and the Min Min light
(Australia) have received much attention. Invariably, these
elusive luminosities are explained in terms of atmospheric
distortions of automobile lights and astronomical objects.

Can mainstream science now similarly brush-off the Hessdalen
phenomenon which is supported by what seems to be a mountain of
solid scientific work?


[Science Frontiers is a bimonthly collection of digests of
scientific anomalies in the current literature. Published by
the Sourcebook Project, P.O. Box 107, Glen Arm, MD 21057.
Annual subscription: $8.00.]









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                    Evidence That Mars Is A Former Moon!

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 19:52:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:38:12 -0400
Subject: Evidence That Mars Is A Former Moon!


Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.


Source: Science Frontiers, No. 155, Sep-Oct, 2004, p. 2

http://www.science-frontiers.com

Astronomy

Evidence that Mars is a former moon!

Mars is generally accepted as one of the solar system's
primordial planets. It certainly "looks" like a legitimate
planet, but was it always orbiting the sun?

T. Van Flandern has, in fact, tabulated 16 Martian anomalies
that might be explained if Mars were instead once a moon of a
10-earth-mass gas giant that exploded 65 million years ago.  We
list some of the (to us) more profound of the 16 Van Flandern
anomalies.

-Mars is much less massive than any other planet, except
Mercury, which itself was probably originally a moon of Venus
(an early Neith!).

-The centers of mass and figure are far offset, a common feature
of moons.

-Mars' southern hemisphere is peppered with craters; few are
seen in the north.

-The above crustal dichotomy is almost a perfect great circle,
suggesting that nearby cataclysm.

-The smooth crust of the northern hemisphere is only about 1-
kilometer thick, compared to 20 kilometers in the south.

-Sudden massive flooding occurred during the planet's history.
 Cause and water source not known.

-Xenon-129, a fission product of great explosions, is
anomalously abundant on Mars.

Van Flandern accounts for the foregoing observations and the
nine others he proffered (but which we did not list) with his
EPH (Exploded Planet Hypothesis). Before the postulated
explosion of so-called planet V, 65 million years ago, this gas
giant swung around the sun close to where Mars orbits today.
 Planet V owned at least two major moons: Mars and Body C, which
became the source to today's comets and chondrites.  Van
Flandern claims that the consequences of the explosion of Planet
V can be seen throughout the solar system, not just on Mars.

(Van Flandern, T.; Mars Rovers And The EPH, Meta Research
Bulletin, 13:12, March 15, 2004)

Comment. If Planet V did indeed explode 65 million years ago,
the earth could not has escaped some of the debris.  Presto: we
a [sic] source of the dozen or so terrestrial craters of about
that age as well as the extinction of the dinosaurs!


[Science Frontiers is a bimonthly collection of digests of
scientific anomalies in the current literature.  Published by
the Sourcebook Project, P.O. Box 107, Glen Arm, MD 21057. Annual
subscription: $8.00.]








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                         Farnam Cow Found Mutilated

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 05:56:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:40:49 -0400
Subject: Farnam Cow Found Mutilated


Source: The North Platte Telegraph - Nebraska

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12855321&BRD=377&PAG=461&dept_id=53181
3&rfi=6

Farnam cow found mutilated

05-09-04

By Mary Beth Chapman

FARNAM - Larry Jurjens was checking his herd of about 100 cattle
Aug. 19, when he found a dead 11-year-old Black Angus.

Jurjens said the cow's left eyeball was removed, the bag and
udders had been removed and there was a large excision in the
rectal region. None of the internal organs were removed and he
said the cuts seemed to have been made with surgical precision.
The tongue had also been removed, with the incision made far
back into the throat.

Jurgens said two puncture wounds were on the cow's chest, each
about an eighth of an inch in diameter.

Jurjens, who has been a rancher for more than 35 years, said he
has never seen anything like it before.

Jurjens said no blood was found on or near the cow.

He said he estimated the cow had been dead about two days before
it was discovered.

The estimated time of death corresponds with unexplained noises
heard in the area. On the night of Aug. 17, Jurjens wife Joanne
heard what sounded like a large, low-flying aircraft going over
their house. The low, rumbling noise was heard by several other
witnesses as far away as Gothenburg. Witnesses reported the
noise persisted from a minute to as much as five minutes in some
areas.

The cow's death is being investigated by Linda Moulton Howe, an
international investigative journalist and documentary film
producer from Jamison, Pa. She visited the Jurjens' ranch Aug.
25, accompanied by Jefferey Willerth, a Los Angeles producer.
Jurjens said they interviewed witnesses and various samples were
taken for scientific analysis.

The case will be featured on a documentary special for the
History Channel, currently slated for broadcast in November.

Jurjens said this is not the first report of unexplained
apparent mutilations of cattle in Nebraska. More recently, in
April 2003, two cows and a bull calf were found dead in a
pasture three miles west of Valparaiso. The cattle, belonging to
Mike Benes, were described by a veterinarian as possibly being
killed by electrocution. A teat was cut off each cow and the
bull calf's scrotum and rectum were removed. Similar to the
recent Farnam case, no blood was found around any of the dead
animals.

Ernest and Catherine Wempel of Overton found an apparently
mutilated cow on their property June 23. The cow's calf has been
missing since the incident.

Ernest Wempel had checked the cows the evening of June 22 and
the cow was alive then. At about 7 a.m. June 23, he said he
found the cow dead, with an udder removed in a similar fashion
as the Jurjen's cow.

The cow was removed by a rendering service by 9 a.m. June 23, so
no tests were performed.

Wempel began wondering about the incident after the cow's calf
was discovered missing. Now, he said, he wishes he had contacted
authorities to do tests on the cow, and plans to do so if
another mutilated cow is found.










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                        Re: SETI False Alarm - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 09:26:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:42:23 -0400
Subject: Re: SETI False Alarm - Groff


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 11:16:05 -0500
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: SETI False Alarm

>>From: William Bolt <ab5sy.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 17:06:29 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: SETI False Alarm

>>SETI False Alarm

>>After 2 hours of careful study of all available data tossed
>>about the Internet. I have, after considerable calculations of
>>the static picked up by my shortwave receiver during the hours I
>>usually listen to The Dr. Gene Scott Program, concluded that
>>the signals heard by SETI are a result of gas discharges from
>>Pelecanus while attempting to challenge Ufologist in serious
>>debate of which said Pelecanus is any of a gentis of large web-
>>footed birds with a very large bill and distensible guiar pouch
>>in which they often place their foot.

><snip>

>Man, there's a blast from the past. I haven't heard Gene Scott's
>name mentioned in many moons. I kinda miss Dr. Gene. Thanks for
>rekindling a fond, if bizarre, memory! A rare "bird", indeed!

Dr. Gene is on TV here in Dallas every Sunday at 9am (CST). I
never watch him because he's on at the same time as Meet The
Press.


Terry








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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 15:57:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:43:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:46:01 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:07:41 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>The problem is that you are claiming, on the basis of nothing
>other than your preferred set of beliefs, that the idea that
>Chiles-Whitted saw a spaceship is inherently irrational. That
>point of view, right or wrong, was held by some demonstrably
>rational people in Project Sign and elsewhere. It's only the
>lazy polemical style of the pelicanist that pretends that
>rational persons can come to only one conclusion - of course,
>the one that makes the pelicanist feel warm and fuzzy all over.

Nowhere have I said that the idea that Chiles-Whitted saw a
spaceship is "inherently irrational", merely that there are more
likely explanations for the sighting.

>>As I said, such misperceptions are not uncommon, and McDonald
>>was not an expert in the vagaries of human perception.

>And you are even less so. Moreover, you have not a fraction of
>McDonald's scientific training (focused in good part on
>observations of aerial - in this case meteorological -
>phenomena) and firsthand investigative experience (and neither
>do I).

McDonald was not the only scientist to have investigated the
case. Hynek thought it was a bolide, but was puzzled by Chiles
and Whitted's insistence that their descriptions of the object
were correct. I'm sure you will have read Jenny Randles's book
"Something in the Air" (London, Robert Hale, 1998) which is on
the same theme as your "Strange Skies". She describes this case
(pp. 35-38) and says: "I have seen phenomena that I am
absolutely certain were bolides or space junk burning up in the
atmosphere that were reported in very similar terms to the
phenomenon seen by the Eastern Airlines crew." (p. 38)

Jenny Randles talked to Hynek about the case in 1983: "Wearing
his UFOlogist's hat Hynek also knew that witnesses tended to see
bolides as constructed craft of cigar shape and to perceive the
trail of illuminated debris as lights or windows along the side.
This knowledge was good support for his original idea as to what
had flown by the DC-3." (p. 37)

>Common sense = whatever John Harney believes.

>For the rest of you, let me repeat the salient point: Even Allen
>Hynek, who in the late 1940s thought the concept of actual UFOs
>unreasonable (as pelicanists still do) and who therefore
>invented the bolide explanation for what Chiles and Whitted saw
>(the one that John affirms because UFOs don't exist), admitted
>it was credible only if one rejected the testimony of these two
>experienced pilots on a priori grounds. In other words, this
>tautology:

Utter nonsense - see above.

>Why did Chiles and Whitted think they saw a UFO? Because they
>were mistaken. How do we know they were mistaken? Because they
>thought they saw a UFO.

They saw something they could not explain. Hynek said it was
probably a bolide, although he was not entirely happy with this
because of the attitude of the pilots, but he later came to
consider it the most likely explanation, as he gained more
knowledge of hoe people misperceive such things. There are no
tautologies involved, just rational explanations.

>But let's get specific here:

>Which prominent ufologists are essentially insincere, and in it
>just for the money and the "popular entertainment"? Names,
>please. I don't mean the obvious crooks and liars - you were not
>alluding to them, the context makes clear enough - but to the
>individuals who have real reputations in this field. And if you
>weren't referring to them, why did you bring up the matter of
>ufologists' integrity at all? What has that to do with anything
>we're discussing, except to distract us into irrelevance?

You've tried this one on me before, Jerry. You obviously want to
see ufology's frauds, liars and buffoons getting their shyster
lawyers to shower me with libel writs, so you can sit on the
sidelines gloating as I go bankrupt. Who these people are should
be obvious to all who have an ounce of common sense.


John Harney







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                  Faded Discs - ETH: Dr. James E. McDonald

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 10:30:35 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:46:07 -0400
Subject: Faded Discs - ETH: Dr. James E. McDonald


Greetings to the Listarians,

"ETH: Dr. James E. McDonald," fifth in the Audio History of
Ufology Series, is now available. Containing over 11 hours of
MP3 audio the disc has 20 recordings dealing with the
Extraterrestrial Hypothesis from 1950 to 1998.

Besides Dr. McDonald other prominent figures from Ufology's
history is available on the disc.

Among the people you will hear are:

Robert Coe Gardner interviewed by Max Miller.
Dr. Ivan T. Sanderson discussing his biological theory of
UFOs.
Dr. Adolph G. Dittmar discussing the history of Ufology in
1956.
Dr. Willy Ley
Desmond Leslie
Dr. I. M. Levitt
and many other rare recordings.

A donation of $20 USD, which includes postage to anywhere in the
world, is requested. You can send your donation via check, money
order or using PayPal. If sending via PayPal, please use one of
the following email addresses:

fadeddiscs.nul

wendy.nul

or send your donation made out to Wendy Connors to the following
address:

Wendy Connors
P.O. Box 8552
Albuquerque, NM 87198

Thank you for supporting the audio history of Ufology
preservation project.

Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com








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   Sep > Sep 5

                        SDI #308 September 4th, 2004

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 12:38:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:53:00 -0400
Subject: SDI #308 September 4th, 2004


Chris Styles and Colm Kelleher, Victor Viggiani, Dave Furlotte,
and Errol Bruce-Knapp, all called out for a new ufological
activism, almost a new ufological militancy as in the case of
Mr. Furlotte most current "Take..." vis a vis last night's
program.

Nascent pelicanists, and pelicanists longer in tooth... might
be brought more immediately to light, Errol, to facilitate this!

The new ufological militancy that Furlotte is calling for,
<g> would seem to justify an atmosphere of challenge and
response. Like a Shaolin monk of antiquity (and let's not make
too much of the simile, 'honored' avians) defending the temple
ground with their flickering fists and flying feet - so do the
'monks' of the UpDates temple defend it with words and phrases
refusing the assumption that wet legs mean rain. especially
given the blueness and clarity of the aggregate ufological sky!

Humanity is likely NOT a jewel in the crown of creation.

Smirking avian 'contributors' should be reminded of that, and
reminded also that their smirks regarding others not buying into
their baseless centricism won't go unchallenged.

For instance, the falsely unctuous and duplicitous tones
obliquely lately fired at Jerry Clark need to be highlighted
(...they did the same two-faced steaming pile of obfuscation
with me at the beginning of the CEIVK thread.).

Avian squawking on the Hungarian UFO photo needs contrast!

Certain contributors, new and otherwise, would have gotten along
famously, I'm sure with the mythic, Dr. Condon.  would have
just said "thrown pie plate" caught at apogee and thought that
reasonable and acceptable, but in the fashion of the amateur
pelicanist nascent avians very 'reasonably' burned it until it
looked like something else all together -  a bird?  A bird
that had to be drawn by the folks down at Warner Bros, imaginary
wings powering it into the sky, the sun flashing off its
invented pen feathers. Hmmmm. Another filter and you have a
bolide, another, and it is a rocket booster, another, and it
is anything that won't splash the shallow puddle of pelicanist
world views or brings their private heavens and personal fables
come crashing down around them.

A rational charter could point out the prevarications of the
duplicitous, and Errol and Dave are entirely correct - as much
as it is a pelicanistic tactic to do this prevaricating and
bottom stirring 'revisiting', it _is_ going to "come up" every
eighteen months or so. Gotta urinate on that fire every time in
flashes into flame. I'd think. Like AirAmerica Radio, we're not
going to be embarrassed about not being impressed with their
conventional, convenient, and complacent... 'wisdom', et al, any
longer. They are, decidedly, _not_ convincing and they take
their inability to _do_ so out on those of us who are not
convinced!

Makes me want to show them an end of their microscopic little
members that they've never seen before - so to speak - and one
shouldn't make too much out of this allusion either. Pelicanists
won't be provoking the 'best' from me, I'm afraid. I see them as
the 'true' enemies of advancement.

Revolution now! <g> It's inevitable anyway.

alienview.nul
www.AlienView.net









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   Sep > Sep 6

               Re: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 13:22:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 09:02:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel? - Hatch


>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 20:19:23 +0100
>Subject: Re: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel?

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 07:07:09 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Using Anti-matter For Star Travel?

>>That's a good article. Fun and nicely written. I didn't learn
>>anything new, but I'm glad to see Keay Davidson mention Dirac, a
>>most interesting Frenchman, who predicted antimatter well before
>>it was actually discovered, based on theory alone.

>Larry,

>Whilst it pains me - from my eyrie in Scotland - to have to
uphold the honour of England, I should point out that Paul Dirac
was an Englishman. He was born in Bristol in 1902 and was
educated at Cambridge, beming Prof. of Math there in 1932. He
'merely' had a French parent.;-)

>Martin Shough


Ah! I stand corrected. Maybe I was thinking of somebody else,
most likely the name fooled me.


Thanks

- Larry










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                 Re: Tonnies On 21st Century Radio - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 13:24:51 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 09:05:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Tonnies On 21st Century Radio - Tonnies




Hi,

I'll be on 21st Century Radio tonight at 7:00 (Central) to
discuss Mars anomaly research and "After the Martian
Apocalypse."  Tune in!

Go to: http://www.21stcenturyradio.com for more
information.

Mac
http://cydonianimperative.blogspot.com

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot*yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com

New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X








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   Sep > Sep 6

               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 16:04:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 09:07:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 15:57:23 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:46:01 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:07:41 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind


Sigh, John,

>Nowhere have I said that the idea that Chiles-Whitted saw a
>spaceship is "inherently irrational", merely that there are more
>likely explanations for the sighting.

Not so. You're being disingenuous again. You're the one who
brought rational and irrational into the discussion to start
with. You can't alter history just because you're now using -
 without, by the way, anything in the way of explanation, beyond
the implicit belief that UFOs don't exist as anything
interesting or anomalous - the more innocuous, though just as
lazy, phrase "more likely." Unless one assumes at the outset
that UFOs cannot exist, "more likely" is not a phrase that in
this context advances the discussion perceptibly.

>>>As I said, such misperceptions are not uncommon, and McDonald
>>>was not an expert in the vagaries of human perception.

>>And you are even less so. Moreover, you have not a fraction of
>>McDonald's scientific training (focused in good part on
>>observations of aerial - in this case meteorological -
>>phenomena) and firsthand investigative experience (and neither
>>do I).

>McDonald was not the only scientist to have investigated the
>case. Hynek thought it was a bolide, but was puzzled by Chiles
>and Whitted's insistence that their descriptions of the object
>were correct. I'm sure you will have read Jenny Randles's book
>"Something in the Air" (London, Robert Hale, 1998) which is on
>the same theme as your "Strange Skies". She describes this case
>(pp. 35-38) and says: "I have seen phenomena that I am
>absolutely certain were bolides or space junk burning up in the
>atmosphere that were reported in very similar terms to the
>phenomenon seen by the Eastern Airlines crew." (p. 38)

Hynek did not "investigate" the sighting. He was simply asked
his opinion of it. McDonald investigated it and rejected the
meteor explanation as most unlikely, as did the early Sign
investigators who spoke with the witnesses and otherwise
collected evidence.

And if you think McDonald was naive or uninformed, you don't
know what you're talking about. Along with several colleagues,
in August 1997 I spent a week going through the McDonald papers
housed at the University of Arizona. There, his private reports
and notes on a staggeringly wide range of personal
investigations are there to be examined. They richly document
McDonald's scientific expertise and searching approach to
investigation and analysis. Anyone seeking to learn how a
scientific approach to UFO investigation should be conducted
would do well to start his or her research there.

Meantime, for specifics on how debunkers had to alter details -
 including the time at which an independent sighting of what may
well have been the same UFO took place - to make the C-W
sighting fit into the meteor framework, see my discussion in
Chapter 4 of Strange Skies. There, one will also read of
daylight sightings of UFOs, some extending over minutes, by
pilots and others who reported UFOs strikingly similar to the
one C-W saw (in particular pages 81-87). When one considers the
evidence in its totality, the meteor hypothesis loses whatever
faint conviction was attached to it to start with..

In short, to put it politely, it is a "less likely explanation"
than that C-W (and a ground witness two hours earlier) observed
an unknown phenomenon. We can argue forever about the nature of
that unknown, of course, but it is futile to contend that
whatever it was, it wasn't there. If I were looking for a
prosaic explanation, I'd turn my attention elsewhere, to some
earthly technological source. That approach is not itself
without problems, but it is a decided improvement on meteoric
guesswork.

>>For the rest of you, let me repeat the salient point: Even Allen
>>Hynek, who in the late 1940s thought the concept of actual UFOs
>>unreasonable (as pelicanists still do) and who therefore
>>invented the bolide explanation for what Chiles and Whitted saw
>>(the one that John affirms because UFOs don't exist), admitted
>>it was credible only if one rejected the testimony of these two
>>experienced pilots on a priori grounds. In other words, this
>>tautology:

>Utter nonsense - see above.

Not "nonsense" - to which charge you have no recourse but to
resort -- but to the contrary, good sense. To be specific, it is
the core trouble with arguments like yours. The tautology, which
you have clipped out so that readers won't be reminded of it, is
as follows:

Why did Chiles and Whitted think they saw a UFO? Because they
were mistaken. How do we know they were mistaken? Because they
thought they saw a UFO.

You have already stated more than once that UFO reports exist
only because witnesses are mistaken and insufficient information
is produced to make the proper prosaic explanation -- which
certainly exists, even if the evidence is currently undetectable
- possible. Therefore, in the hermetically sealed universe of
pelicanist discourse, no genuinely anomalous UFO could ever
emerge. The tautology above precisely expresses the logical
problem at the heart of pelicanism.

>>Which prominent ufologists are essentially insincere, and in it
>>just for the money and the "popular entertainment"? Names,
>>please. I don't mean the obvious crooks and liars - you were not
>>alluding to them, the context makes clear enough - but to the
>>individuals who have real reputations in this field. And if you
>>weren't referring to them, why did you bring up the matter of
>>ufologists' integrity at all? What has that to do with anything
>>we're discussing, except to distract us into irrelevance?

>You've tried this one on me before, Jerry. You obviously want to
>see ufology's frauds, liars and buffoons getting their shyster
>lawyers to shower me with libel writs, so you can sit on the
>sidelines gloating as I go bankrupt. Who these people are should
>be obvious to all who have an ounce of common sense.

Sigh. _Of course_ it was not my intention to get you into
trouble with libel lawyers. I wish nobody short of Swift Boat
Liars that kind of trouble. I am, however, curious about your
strange last sentence (though not about your boring use, yet
again, of that well-worn shop phrase "common sense," which
means only what you want to believe, however unapparently
compelling the sense in question may be to the rest of us).

Here's a way to resolve this. Dead people can't sue. So let's
have the names of one, two, or more ostensibly respectable, but
now- deceased, ufologists who were not in fact sincere and whose
true motives were money, publishing contracts, big-paying
lecture gigs, and/or public acclaim. In other words, the ones
you alluded to, though without naming, in the posting that
sparked this discussion.

From their entries in my UFO Encyclopedia, I have drawn these
names of ufologists whom their colleagues considered of good
character and respectability; all are no longer among us and
therefore can't phone their attorneys. Please pick the names of
those whom you judge to have been exploiting UFOs solely or
primarily for personal gain:

Davis, Isabel L.
Fontes, Olavo T.
Fort, Charles Hoy
Hynek, Josef Allen
Keyhoe, Donald Edward
Lorenzen, Coral
Lorenzen, Jim
McDonald, James Edward
Michel, Aime
Rehn, K. Gosta
Stringfield, Leonard H.

(I have not listed, for obvious reasons, flamboyant contactees.
Nor have I listed cranks like Harold T. Wilkins and Morris K.
Jessup, hucksters like Ray Palmer, and debunkers such as Klass
and Menzel. Frank Edwards is generally agreed to have been
sincere but careless and unreliable. Ed Ruppelt was an Air Force
officer, not a ufologist as the term is ordinarily applied. We
are talking here of ufologists whom their colleagues, including
those who differed with them on various issues, regarded as
worthy fellows who sought to make positive contributions.)

If you can't produce even the names of dead ufologists who fit
the unsavory characterization, maybe you're just blowing smoke,
which often seems your favored method of communication, I'm
afraid. I would prefer to think, however, that you are sincere,
and now, I confess, I'm genuinely curious. Please don't
disappoint us this time.


Jerry Clark








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                 Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul com>
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:11:14 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 09:12:24 -0400
Subject: Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul com>
>To: ufoupdates.nul net
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 21:59:57 EDT
>Subject: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri?

>More news articles about science translated so that the average
>Joe and Jane can understand should be published regularly.

>http://www. enquirer. com/editions/2004/08/15/tem_skywatching15. html

>This has some great examples using models that are easy to
>visualize and experiment with.

>Of note to me is how it states that with current technology it
>would take us 77,000 years to reach Alpha Centauri.

>Is this correct? Are we that slow? I recall Mr. Friedman
>presenting data that we could do much faster with technology
>already tested. If he has a paper on it or if someone has more
>info please post.

This is one of loads of articles about star and space travel
that reveal the ignorance of the astronomical community about
such matters. Essentially all of the thrust for the local
journeys occurs at the beginning and the chemical rockets coast
the rest of the way, fortunately taking advantage of Cosmic
Freeloading. I detailed the problems with such ignorant rants in
my 1999 MUFON Paper "Star Travel? YES!". Notice how none of the
assumptions are given that lead to the silly 77,000 years. One
has to presume chemical rockets which makes as much sense as
computing the time from my home in Fredericton, New Brunswick,
Canada, to Los Angeles by assuming the use of a tricycle. For
example, a number of nuclear thermal rocket engines were tested
back in the 1960s. The most powerful operated at a power level
of 4400 Megawatts... twice the energy production level of Pt.
Lepreau, but only 7' in diameter. I worked on these for Aerojet
General and for Westinghouse Astronuclear Lab. These would be
upper stages with twice the specific impulse of chemical
rockets. Of much greater interest would be nuclear fusion
rockets. I worked on these in 1962 under John Luce at Aerojet
General Nucleonics (He had been head of Oak Ridge National
Laboratory's fusion program). If one uses the D-He-3 reaction,
almost all the energy produced is in the form of very energetic
charged particles rather than the neutrons (which cannot be
directed by electromagnetic fields) produced by the better know
D-D reaction. D is Deuterium... Hydrogen with a neutron and
proton in the nucleus. The ejected particles have 10 million
times as much energy per particle  as can be given particles
emitted in chemical rockets.

One of course expects that technological progress comes from
doing things differently, even if Astronomers don't seem to
understand this. We have only known about the nucleus and radio
waves and airplane flight for a century, and about space flight
for half a century. One expects, since Zeta 1 and Zeta 2
Reticuli (both sun-like and  just 39 light years away and only
1/8th of a light year apart from each other) are a billion years
older than the sun, that beings there  are not stuck at the
level of either chemical rockets for travel or radio waves for
communication.

In my paper ($4. for 18 pages including Shipping from UFORI, POB
958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958) I note the equally misguided
"studies" by astronomers Dr. Simon Newcomb (The only way man
would fly would be with a balloon--1903), Dr. Simon Bickerton
(No way to give anything enough energy to put it in  orbit,about
1923) and Dr. Campbell (1941 study showing that the required
initial launch weight of a chemical rocket able to get a man to
the moon and back would be a billion billion tons. . too high by
a factor of 300 Million).

There is also the silly study by Nobel Prize winning physicist
Dr. Ed Purcell from Harvard who "proved" that a trip to a star
10 light years away would be impossible. He stupidly assumed
acceleration at 1G for half way out, and decelerating the second
half and repeating the process in reverse, but of course
carrying everything needed for the round trip. He didn't seem to
recognize  cosmic freeloading  or the simple fact that at 1 G
acceleration  it takes only a year to reach the speed of light,
or that one is likely to pick up propellant at the
destination. One very likely wants much higher acceleration at
the beginning and decelleration at the end.

Yes, Einstein has been experimentally proven correct that time
slows down for things moving close to the speed of light. At
99. 99% c it only takes about 6 months pilot time to go 37
light years.

One might notice that there is only about 17 minutes of powered
flight on our way to the moon. The rest of the 3 days time Dean
Regas talks about it taking to go to the moon, the rocket is
coasting  and slowing down until the moon pulls it in.

Sorry I cannot recommend this article except as one of many
examples of the ignorance of astronomers about space flight.

I will probably do my next MUFON Journal column about this, so
am grateful for the heads up.


Stan Friedman

Some of the details are covered in my paper "Challenge to SETI
Specialists" at my website:

http://www.stanfriedman.com








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   Sep > Sep 6

               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:01:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 09:16:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 21:43:11 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:24:35 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:28:39 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind


Uh, John,

>As in so many of Jerry's posts, the important thing is the one
bit he doesn't reply to. As I managed to spell his name
correctly, the only way he can avoid answering is by snipping
the awkward bit. My paragraph following the one he deigns to
reproduce above, read:

>"Or are you going to pull your tired old argument that there is
>some other meaning to the phrase "fast-moving, structured-
>looking phenomena that do not appear to be earthly aircraft"
>which somehow avoids the necessity of admitting that you do
>actually believe in the ETH?"

>No matter what he pretends, neither I nor Jerry were talking
>about "observations of UFOs" per se, but about a particular sub-
>category - those UFOs which, in Jerry's own words, represent
>"fast-moving, structured-looking phenomena that do not appear to
>be earthly aircraft".

As usual, John snips out the part of my response that he can't
respond to. I think that in real life he actually does
understand the difference between a simple statement of fact
(that observations of anomalous aerial structure have been
reported) and an unproved hypothesis (that such stuctures are
the product of ETI). John would much rather move the ground of
the argument to the latter, since in the former he and his
fellow pelicanists don't do so well, as we've seen.

I think most would agree that we have a long way to go before we
start declaring "fast-moving, structured-looking phenomena" and
"alien spacecraft" to be interchangeable phrases, whatever our
intuitive feeling about the sensibleness of the latter
proposition. I would venture to say that it would take wreckage,
machinery, and bodies -- extant not just in testimony and rumor
but on a table in front of the world's eyes and beyond anyone's
capacity to dispute -- to make that leap.

But of course pelicanists have always preferred theory to
observation and evidence. In that sense I understand John's
desire to change the subject; if I were in his position, no
doubt I'd attempt to do the same. Since I am in my own shoes,
however, I'm sorry to state that I am not even slightly tempted
to run down this particular blind alley with John.

Nonetheless, to switch metaphors, keep on flappin', John. Good
to see that the wings are still in working order.


Jerry Clark

P.S. The rest is not snipped out, so as to deny John the pleasure
of charging that I'm trying to censor his words of positively
stunning wisdom:

[Uh... yes it is by --ebk]







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              Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 01:59:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 10:37:56 -0400
Subject: Re: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri? - Gates


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 21:59:57 EDT
>Subject: 77,000 Years To Reach Alpha Centauri?


>More news articles about science translated so that the average
>Joe and Jane can understand should be published regularly.

>http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/08/15/tem_skywatching15.html

>This has some great examples using models that are easy to
>visualize and experiment with.

>Of note to me is how it states that with current technology it
>would take us 77,000 years to reach Alpha Centauri.

Greg Listers,

I always enjoyed the articles that make some sort of
pronouncement about the status of current technology... because
they generally don't take into account the various technological
advancements being worked on, or in the development process,
 not to mention you have people with the attitude of "I have my
Phd (or Nobel) so there is  nothing left to learn or develop"
 in the world.

With the technological status of the world 100 or so years ago,
a person could make the pronouncement that "based upon the
technology today, you will be able to travel all day and make 8-
12 miles.  With technology 100 years later we do in hours what
took the pioneers months to do.

I suspect this trend will continue.


Cheers,

Robert








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   Sep > Sep 6

                        Re: Cattle Mutes - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:15:09 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 10:43:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes - Stevenson


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 12:44:14 EDT
>Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes

>>From: Ted Oliphant <tedoliphant.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:21:00 -0700
>>Subject: Cattle Mutes

<snip>

>It was no where near good news regarding the UFO issue. So after
>reading your post I can see why the cops who risk their butts
>everyday are also victims of these sinister doings and there
>needs to be a conference of law enforcement officers in regard
>to these matters to make sure they don't end up in harm's way.

>It's bad enough they have to put up with the public's everyday
>nonsense, violence and stupidity not to mention the heavily
>armed organized crime groups and gangs, now they have to worry
>about the 'unknown' and have to deal with threats from those
>claiming authority over our Constitutional rights?

>No way.


Hi Ted, Greg and List

All I can say is that if they knowingly do that then what are
they willing to do to abductee's and those interested in
ET/UFOs.

Does everyone have to be brainless and have no knowledge at all
and no interests like robots in a world run by the elite who
_think_ they know everything?

If 'it isn't in our best interests to know' then they should
explain why surely? If they don't then the inevitable ensues
causing much greater unwanted problems in other areas.

Maybe a little knowledge IS dangerous but no explanation is so
dangerous as to 'not be on the cards at all' surely?

To quote T. Blair UK PM 'education, education, education the
three E's, and the three R's; reading, riting, and rithmatic'.
So why are we _not_ being educated via media etc in regard to some
matters of great concern to many (last count over 65 per cent
believe ET visits are real) and why do we have to 'put up' with
all the disinformation and lies?

Could someone on the List explain without pointing out a
conspiracy theory?

Could it be that ET and associates have been given permission to
do what they like in our best interests one wonders?


Kind regards to all

Col

http://www.colsweb.com







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                            ET Einstein & E-Mails

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 11:24:38 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 10:46:26 -0400
Subject: ET Einstein & E-Mails


Hi Errol and List

If it takes on average 3 to 4 days for me to receive emails from
UFO Updates how far will they have traveled, assuming they do so
at the speed of light? Or would there be a huge capacitor 'on
line' on the Internet somewhere causing said delay which charges
up with all the emails then only releasing them when full?

Assume only three day delay then 3days x 24hours x 60minutes x
60seconds x 186000 miles per second (approx speed of light)
equals 4.82112x10^10

This answer is 'tongue in cheek' slightly further than the
distance from Errol to me (central UK) so where do the emails go
to then come back from and is this proof that on some very
distant planet ET are actually monitoring and maybe censoring my
emails and is it legal?

Maybe the List debunkers can come up with a plausible
explanation to prove ET is not responsible for this outlined
here. Maybe my emails are flown to me, not over wires but by
messenger Pigeon or Pelican?


Kind wishes

Col
http://www.colsweb.com








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                       Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:21:26 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 10:48:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - Hale


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:26:20 -0500
>Subject: Re: Hungarian UFO Photo?

>I am a novice at this, but the images are there for you to see.
>Anyone can duplicate what I have done.


List,

I have run this image with Adobe CS 8 Photoshop.

I have enlarged the picture dramtically using the percent
increase image scale by 600%. Also taking the picture to
grayscale for more defintion of the image. This has been done
with little or no distortion of the photo, of which a very
interesting picture evolves, of which makes a " Bird " a little
sus in my book.

The sharp and defined smooth characteristics of the image, is in
my opinion more of an object of structured material of some
kind, noting a very light heat distortion from the edges of the
object.

I have the pictures enlarged, anyone who wants them can email:
weirdufopic.nul

I would hope you have a broadband connection due to the size of
the images involved.


Roy








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                       Secret US Watch Post Overhauled

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 06:52:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 10:51:16 -0400
Subject: Secret US Watch Post Overhauled


Source: Reuters Alertnet Foundation

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N03483623.htm

09-06-04

FEATURE-Learning from 9/11, secret US watch post overhauled

By Caroline Drees, Security Correspondent

CHEYENNE MOUNTAIN, Colo., Sept 6 (Reuters) - Buried inside a
mountain beneath 2,000 feet (600 metres) of rock, a top-secret
watch post scans the skies around the clock to make sure America
is never again caught off guard by an attack like Sept. 11's.

Designed as a Cold War sentinel against Soviet bombers, Cheyenne
Mountain Operations Center near Colorado Springs, Colorado, and
the military units it supported were unprepared for the 2001
attack.

With their eyes trained on threats from abroad, those units
failed to stop - or even mitigate - the first attack on U.S.
soil by a non-state, foreign enemy which slipped in undetected.

But since Sept. 11, a massive security overhaul has made
Cheyenne Mountain together with the nearby headquarters of NORAD
and the new U.S. Northern Command (NORTHCOM) the nerve center of
the military's anti-terrorism network, working hand-in-glove to
thwart attacks on North America.

"Before 9/11, we had a very limited internal focus," said Maj.
Charles Thinger, who heads the aerospace warning center at
Cheyenne Mountain.

"The morning of Sept. 11, there were over 3,000 aircraft flying
over the continental United States and NORAD could track less
than 20 percent of them," he said, referring to the U.S.-
Canadian North American Aerospace Defense Command in charge of
detecting and countering airborne threats.

Today, soldiers inside "the mountain" monitor a dizzying array
of screens featuring the real-time flight path of every
commercial plane over the United States, as well as constantly
updated maps, charts and diagrams channeling information which
could presage an attack.

The Cheyenne Mountain center is a unique military post that is
staffed by mixed crews from the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force,
Marines and Canadian armed forces.

"There were no procedures in place to mitigate the kind of
threat we saw on that day," Navy Cmdr. Mike White said at the
joint headquarters in Colorado Springs.

He said that had now changed, thanks to expanded air patrols,
radar coverage, information sharing and intelligence
coordination - as well as a determination to shoot down
civilian aircraft if necessary.

Defending The U.S.

NORTHCOM, the part of the U.S. military in charge of protecting
U.S. land, sea and airspace, was founded only after the suicide
hijackings and became fully operational two years later on Sept.
11, 2003.

Cheyenne Mountain supports its mission, using satellites and
other high-tech sensors to monitor space and the skies for
incoming threats as small as a tennis ball.

Then NORAD, in close cooperation with NORTHCOM, takes that
information to warn the U.S. and Canadian governments and tries
to intercept or destroy the threats if needed.

From the outside, Cheyenne Mountain blends smoothly into the
environment, belying the high-tech complex inside.

Once you cross the 25-tonne (23,000 kg) steel doors into the
site, a warren of chambers and tunnels snake through the
granite. The buildings are bolted into the mountain with 115,000
screws, and rest on about 1,300 springs which protect the
facility from damage should an earthquake - or missile -
rattle the ground.

While troops at Cheyenne Mountain monitor potential threats,
intelligence analysts at NORTHCOM and NORAD headquarters at
nearby Peterson Air Force Base add the disparate bits of
information to data from other federal agencies to compile an
overall picture of any emerging danger.

"Our goal is to connect the dots... in order to create a clear
threat picture. It's central to protecting the homeland,"
said the director of intelligence for NORTHCOM and NORAD whose
identity is so secret he would only give his name as Mike.

The 9/11 Commission, charged with investigating the greatest
intelligence failure in U.S. history, cited an inability to
"connect the dots" as one of the central factors that allowed
the attacks to happen.

Shoot Down Orders

The commission also cited confusion and poor coordination
between NORAD and the civilian Federal Aviation Administration,
saying they had been unprepared to deal with such an attack. On
Sept. 11, 2001, the order to shoot down the hijacked planes did
not reach ready fighter jets until the last attacked airliner
had crashed.

Military officials said these concerns have now been addressed.
Today, FAA officials work side by side with their counterparts
in Cheyenne Mountain.

Gen. Ralph "Ed" Eberhart, the commander of both NORTHCOM and
NORAD, said the procedures were now in place to make sure
fighter jets could take out threatening aircraft in time to help
avoid another tragedy.

Since the 2001 attacks, he said NORAD had scrambled fighter jets
some 1,600 times to check on anomalies in the air, but none had
turned out to be a serious threat.

Eberhart, who flew 300 combat missions in Vietnam and will
retire in November, said the decision to destroy a commercial
plane would never be taken lightly, and the lives of anyone who
authorized it or pulled the trigger would never be the same.

But "we're prepared to do that because we know if we don't do
that, then there likely are hundreds if not thousands of others
on the ground that at going to die, too," he said.










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   Sep > Sep 6

             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 08:55:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 10:53:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 16:04:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 15:57:23 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>Sigh, John,

>>Nowhere have I said that the idea that Chiles-Whitted saw a
>>spaceship is "inherently irrational", merely that there are more
>>likely explanations for the sighting.

>Not so. You're being disingenuous again. You're the one who
>brought rational and irrational into the discussion to start
>with. You can't alter history just because you're now using -
>without, by the way, anything in the way of explanation, beyond
>the implicit belief that UFOs don't exist as anything
>interesting or anomalous - the more innocuous, though just as
>lazy, phrase "more likely." Unless one assumes at the outset
>that UFOs cannot exist, "more likely" is not a phrase that in
>this context advances the discussion perceptibly.

<snip>

>>From their entries in my UFO Encyclopedia, I have drawn these
>names of ufologists whom their colleagues considered of good
>character and respectability; all are no longer among us and
>therefore can't phone their attorneys. Please pick the names of
>those whom you judge to have been exploiting UFOs solely or
>primarily for personal gain:

>Davis, Isabel L.
>Fontes, Olavo T.
>Fort, Charles Hoy
>Hynek, Josef Allen
>Keyhoe, Donald Edward
>Lorenzen, Coral
>Lorenzen, Jim
>McDonald, James Edward
>Michel, Aime
>Rehn, K. Gosta
>Stringfield, Leonard H.

>(I have not listed, for obvious reasons, flamboyant contactees.
>Nor have I listed cranks like Harold T. Wilkins and Morris K.
>Jessup, hucksters like Ray Palmer, and debunkers such as Klass
>and Menzel. Frank Edwards is generally agreed to have been
>sincere but careless and unreliable. Ed Ruppelt was an Air Force
>officer, not a ufologist as the term is ordinarily applied. We
>are talking here of ufologists whom their colleagues, including
>those who differed with them on various issues, regarded as
>worthy fellows who sought to make positive contributions.)

>If you can't produce even the names of dead ufologists who fit
>the unsavory characterization, maybe you're just blowing smoke,
>which often seems your favored method of communication, I'm
>afraid. I would prefer to think, however, that you are sincere,
>and now, I confess, I'm genuinely curious. Please don't
>disappoint us this time.


I'll start the clock, confident that perhaps this will distort
the timetable of when these repeated and echoing 'concerns' are
revisited by our avian friends of smothering fallacial
apposition.

6 September, 2004.

If we start noting the date, and making record of it, the
archives will be easier to search for their prevaricating,
distracting, and intellectually unethical ufological
revisionisms... regarding points of fact that they try to
disparage, dismiss, and degrade with their baseless murmuring
and conscienceless whispering.

"Who makes the money really..." has been roundly thrashed with
pelicanists at least once in the last year on this forum with
plucked avians running around doing Ned Beatty in "Deliverance"
impersonations the only result, as I recall. Skeptibunky
worthies rise from their ashes as soon as the attention span
limits of the aggregate audience have been exceeded to begin
their cooing anew, confident that their mewlingly puling
protestations, cloaked and bedecked in only a camouflage of
faux-rationality, will create doubt where there was potential
for some certainty, indecision where there was a germ of
decisiveness, and ambivalence where there was once a scintilla
of conviction. It's what they do.

alienview.nul
www.AlienView.net









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                         What's New With John Ford?

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:06:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 10:57:24 -0400
Subject: What's New With John Ford?


John Ford, the reader recalls, was the strident Suffolk county
New York "UFO nut", TOO many years ago now, who "tried to
murder" a political rival, John Powell, by putting radium in his
household tooth paste.

Forget for a moment that John Ford was very busily, very
passionately, and also very diligently investigating John Powell
pursuant to righteous corruption and conspiracy disclosures
involving _key_ agencies of local (Suffolk County, NY)
government. Forget that John Ford's strident investigation was
legal, ethical, and reflective of a man who was a retired
officer of the Suffolk county court system and holder of a
College Master's degree. Forget that after John Ford was thrown
in a hole to rot and be forgotten, the right honorable John
Powell pled "no contest" to conspiracy and racketeering charges
with clear links to organized crime (plus the dangerous disposal
of toxic wastes?), and, to my knowledge spent not _one_ day in
jail!

Doesn't anybody _else_ smell the fetid fragrance of that fulsome
fishy flounder? It's apparent most do not. Most would seem to
put full faith and confidence... only in the machine that
railroaded him, apparently.

Do the _facts_ of this strange case support anything else
besides the well told American fable of the "little guy" taking
it squarely between the eyes for the crass convenience of the
"big guy", and all of this scurrilous activity in direct
contradiction to every precept, ideal, and ethic we're supposed
to hold dear in this nation? John Ford was, the reader can bet,
foully hull-breached for investigating the activities of a man
who _could_not_bear_ that investigation!

John Ford, accused of conspiracy to murder, and then locked in
an institution for the criminally insane facilitated by his
belief in the ufological, is very likely crazy _now_, just under
10 years into this, very likely criminal, false imprisonment. It
doesn't _help_ that he looks like Elmer Fudd, has a voice like
Daffy Duck and was as stridently litigious as Yosemite Sam is
angry and bellicose... it doesn't _matter_ either! John was
likely just one more easy victim of the criminally arbitrary, a
pawn of a criminal aristocratic elite, and just another crushed
bug for the boss of a corrupt political machine.

What's new with John Ford?


alienview.nul
www.AlienView.net











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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:36:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 10:59:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 16:04:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>From their entries in my UFO Encyclopedia, I have drawn these
>names of ufologists whom their colleagues considered of good
>character and respectability; all are no longer among us and
>therefore can't phone their attorneys. Please pick the names of
>those whom you judge to have been exploiting UFOs solely or
>primarily for personal gain

<snip>

>I have not listed, for obvious reasons, flamboyant contactees.
>Nor have I listed cranks like Harold T. Wilkins and Morris K.
>Jessup, hucksters like Ray Palmer, and debunkers such as Klass
>and Menzel....

My apologies to Phil Klass for accidentally including him among
the departed. Phil is no longer so active as he was, but he
definitely remains on this side of that great line. I wish him
long residence here.  Sorry for the error.


Jerry Clark









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                 Re: Secret US Watch Post Overhauled - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:14:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:29:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Secret US Watch Post Overhauled - Boone


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 06:52:35 -0700
>Subject: Secret US Watch Post Overhauled


>Source: Reuters Alertnet Foundation

>http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N03483623.htm

>09-06-04

>FEATURE-Learning from 9/11, secret US watch post overhauled

>By Caroline Drees, Security Correspondent

>CHEYENNE MOUNTAIN, Colo., Sept 6 (Reuters) - Buried inside a
>mountain beneath 2,000 feet (600 metres) of rock, a top-secret
>watch post scans the skies around the clock to make sure America
>is never again caught off guard by an attack like Sept. 11's.

>Designed as a Cold War sentinel against Soviet bombers, Cheyenne
>Mountain Operations Center near Colorado Springs, Colorado, and
>the military units it supported were unprepared for the 2001
>attack.

ROFL! It never ceases to amaze me how the media can sure as heck
tell us and everybody on Earth about that 'Top Secret Base'.

Like Area 51. All that time and money and manpower to keep it
secret and it ends up in movies, TV shows, comic books and model
toy kits.

Next thing ya know 'Cheyenne Mountain' will end up as some new
action kit toy set with secret Generals and Colonels with 'Kung
Fu grip'.


Best,

Greg









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                       Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:40:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:31:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Hungarian UFO Photo? - King


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:21:26 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hungarian UFO Photo?

<snip>

>List,
>
>I have run this image with Adobe CS 8 Photoshop.
>
>I have enlarged the picture dramtically using the percent
>increase image scale by 600%. Also taking the picture to
>grayscale for more defintion of the image. This has been done
>with little or no distortion of the photo, of which a very
>interesting picture evolves, of which makes a " Bird " a little
>sus in my book.

>The sharp and defined smooth characteristics of the image, is in
>my opinion more of an object of structured material of some
>kind, noting a very light heat distortion from the edges of the
>object.

>I have the pictures enlarged, anyone who wants them can email:
>weirdufopic.nul

>I would hope you have a broadband connection due to the size of
>the images involved.


Roy,

Several points...

1) Increasing size by your method is not the proper method to
enlarge an image. Read the Photoshop manual. The proper method
of resizing an image without introducing artifact is to increase
the resolution of the image. This is done in "Image/Image size/"
and increasing the "dpi" of the image. Your claim that the
resizing by 600% (using the percentage increase method) provides
little distortion is incorrect.

2) Converting an image to grayscale reduces definition.
Grayscale in Photoshop replaces 16+ million discrete colors with
256 homogenous colors. Calling this degradation an increase in
definition is incorrect.

3) There is an eyewitness to the event depicted in the image. He
states that he saw nothing unusual.

4) The eyewitness states that he was taking photos of his
girlfriend. The photo in question was not a "good" photograph if
the goal was taking photos of his girlfriend. I may be
incorrect, but I would hold that what he saw when taking a photo
of his girlfriend was not what the camera recorded, as the
girlfriend is all but invisible due to the overexposure.

I trust the eyewitness as to what he says he was doing, and what
he saw ...or did not see.

All that said, it could be a structured craft hovering in the
near- center of the image. I only find that difficult...not
impossible...to support based on the eyewitness testimony and
the image in question.

Regards,

Kyle







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                          Re: Cattle Mutes - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:46:46 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:33:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes - Sparks


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:15:09 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 12:44:14 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes

>>>From: Ted Oliphant <tedoliphant.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:21:00 -0700
>>>Subject: Cattle Mutes

<snip>

>Does everyone have to be brainless...

<snip>

> ... and why do we have to 'put up' with
>all the disinformation and lies?

>Could someone on the List explain without pointing out a
>conspiracy theory?

>Could it be that ET and associates have been given permission to
>do what they like in our best interests one wonders?

You yourself just stated the wildest "conspiracy theory" of all
- that "ET and associates" are conspiring with world
governments.







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                           Re: Cattle Mutes - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:54:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:36:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes - King


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:15:09 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes

<snip>

>Could someone on the List explain without pointing out a
>conspiracy theory?

>Could it be that ET and associates have been given permission to
>do what they like in our best interests one wonders?


Hi Mr. Stevenson,

The only "non-conspiratorial" explanation which makes sense to
me is also the most frightening... they don't know.

Governments are very reluctant to admit what they do not know.
Undermines their status as leaders. Threatens their status as
"the authorities".

Disclosure might cause a panic. This assumes the disclosure of
knowledge of alien presence.

One can only wonder what the panic level would be to know that
their "elite" is clueless. They cannot allow that impression.


Regards,

Kyle








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              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:52:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:40:56 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Allan


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:08:42 -0500
>Subject: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>You see, the following is why our esteemed Mr. Klass can be seen
>to be entirely contemptible, undeniablely irresponsible, and
>thoroughly reprehensible. It would appear that he may be still-
>living proof that there is societal improvement with every
>funeral. And all you ardent skeptibunkies can _pound_ your
>outraged E-mails... the NMS&R can additionally pound their New
>Mexico sand!

>Thank you Gov. Richardson... what a guy!


I wonder what Mr Richardson hopes will be achieved by yet another
investigation into this case.

Does this Governor genuinely believe that:

1. The wreckage of an ET craft has been in US govt custody for
   57 years, and still top secret?

2. The actual bodies of ETs are likewise still in US custody
   for all this time?

3. A ton or more of official documents on the case is still
   under wraps after all this time?

Someone ought to put these items to him, point blank. If he does
not accept all 3, there is no point in taking it any further,
since you cannot have a Roswell ET crash without the above
consequences to follow.

Why does not this governor make his views quite clear, instead of
merely asking for yet another (and another) official
investigation, etc? Has he any real views on the case, or not?

I suspect he does not really believe any of 1 to 3 above, but is
merely trying to fan the dying flames of a totally lost cause.

'Debunking the story' or 'Full disclosure'.  Which is it?

The GAO, answered that in 1995, Mr Richardson. Can you do
better?

The governor obviously is just not 'with it' over Roswell, but
wants to make some noises. Why not similar noises over The San
Augustin 'crash' (a la Friedman) or the Aztec crash?  Both come
under the governor's jurisdiction.

Having just read Larry Bryant's latest, pathetic, letter to the
Roswell Daily Record (Open letter to the Gov.), Richardson will
doubtless realise the stupidity of the whole affair, and keep
well away.


CDA








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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 20:23:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:44:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 16:04:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>Meantime, for specifics on how debunkers had to alter details -
>including the time at which an independent sighting of what may
>well have been the same UFO took place - to make the C-W
>sighting fit into the meteor framework, see my discussion in
>Chapter 4 of Strange Skies.

According to Jenny Randles, the timing was exactly one hour
different and Hynek "told the US government they had a choice.
If the timing on the ground or the reporting of it was wrong by
an hour then the engineer clearly saw the same object as the air
crew." ("Something in the Air", p. 36)

>There, one will also read of
>daylight sightings of UFOs, some extending over minutes, by
>pilots and others who reported UFOs strikingly similar to the
>one C-W saw (in particular pages 81-87). When one considers the
>evidence in its totality, the meteor hypothesis loses whatever
>faint conviction was attached to it to start with..

Yes, but the Chiles-Whitted case was not one of these.

>>From their entries in my UFO Encyclopedia, I have drawn these
>names of ufologists whom their colleagues considered of good
>character and respectability; all are no longer among us and
>therefore can't phone their attorneys. Please pick the names of
>those whom you judge to have been exploiting UFOs solely or
>primarily for personal gain:

I wasn't referring to _dead_ ufologists. What would be the
point? The ones I have in mind are very much alive. Two or three
of those you mention are too obscure for me to know anything
about them anyway.


John Harney








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                  Re: What's New With John Ford? - Freeman

From: Kelly Freeman <Khfflsciufo.nul>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:17:03 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:46:23 -0400
Subject: Re: What's New With John Ford? - Freeman


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: AlienViewGroup.nul>
>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:06:24 -0500
>Subject: What's New With John Ford?

>John Ford, the reader recalls, was the strident Suffolk county
>New York "UFO nut", TOO many years ago now, who "tried to
>murder" a political rival, John Powell, by putting radium in his
>household tooth paste.

<snip>

>John Ford, accused of conspiracy to murder, and then locked in
>an institution for the criminally insane facilitated by his
>belief in the ufological, is very likely crazy_now_, just under
>10 years into this, very likely criminal, false imprisonment. It
>doesn't_ help_that he looks like Elmer Fudd, has a voice like
>Daffy Duck and was as stridently litigious as Yosemite Sam is
>angry and bellicose... it doesn't_matter_either! John was
>likely just one more easy victim of the criminally arbitrary, a
>pawn of a criminal aristocratic elite, and just another crushed
>bug for the boss of a corrupt political machine.

>What's new with John Ford?

Alfred and Listers,

According to the most recent letter that I have received from
John Ford, he has indicated that he is in good spirits and seems
optimistic about an early release.

He expects a transfer to what he describes as a 'civil' hospital
in the next year or so, and then from there expects to be
released in two or three years.


The truth is out there... somewhere.


Best,

Kelly Freeman








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                Re: Secret US Watch Post Overhauled - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 22:31:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:00:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Secret US Watch Post Overhauled - Sparks


>Source: Reuters Alertnet Foundation

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N03483623.htm

>09-06-04

>FEATURE-Learning from 9/11, secret US watch post overhauled

>By Caroline Drees, Security Correspondent

>CHEYENNE MOUNTAIN, Colo., Sept 6 (Reuters) - Buried inside a
>mountain beneath 2,000 feet (600 metres) of rock, a top-secret
>watch post scans the skies around the clock to make sure America
>is never again caught off guard by an attack like Sept. 11's.

Why were NORAD's first-response F-15's and F-16's on the morning
of 9-11 flying at less than 1/3 (one-third) top speed? This was
in fact slower than than the airliners the F-16's were sent to
intercept. How does being supposedly "caught off guard" make you
fly jet interceptors so slow? If you are investigating an
unknown situation wouldn't you want to get there quickly? Why
weren't these questions asked and answered, back in 2001? Why
has it taken 3 years to drag out only partial grudging answers
to these questions like pulling of teeth and that are utterly
false anyway (referring to the outrageous 9-11 Commission
report)?

The airline flight attendants reported the first hijacking in
progress at about 8:13 AM on 9-11 to the ground by air phone.
That was when American Flight 11 lost normal radio contact via
pilot and crew with the ground and began not responding to FAA
ground controllers. Why then did the FAA delay till 8:37-8:40 AM
in notifying NORAD when the legal requirement was for immediate
fighter "escort" (interception) to investigate whenever any
aircraft lost radio contact or deviated from course?

Why are the investigative reports of those flight attendant
phone calls from the doomed airliners all suppressed from public
access? Why do so-called "investigative journalists" refuse to
investigate these covered up reports of the flight attendant
calls? The news media have never pursued the _documents_ merely
interviewed family and friends in a "human interest" angle to
the story, not as a hard-hitting investigation of crime and
corruption, and never pursued the unexplained and criminally
negligent (or worse) 1/2 hour delay by the FAA in notifying
NORAD.

Once the story broke about how very early into the flight the
fact it was a hijacking was reported to the ground, none of the
other news media can have any excuse for not knowing. Yet none
have followed up. Instead other media have come along and simply
lied about it, typically by falsely reporting a much shorter
warning interval than the 1/2 hour reporting by the flight
attendants (the 9-11 Commission has grudgingly confirmed the
earliness of the knowledge that it was a hijacking though trying
to shave off several minutes, by trying to suggest the call was
at 8:19 but not explaining if that was the time of the first
call or the time when the hijacking was completed).

In fact, no one pursues the FAA or NORAD, instead the CIA and
FBI have taken all the flak on 9-11. It's as if even questioning
these aviation-related agencies is akin to investigating a 'UFO'
sighting.

The skills these agencies have practiced for years in
stonewalling citizen and media investigations of the UFO
phenomenon are being ably employed in blocking 9-11
investigations, such as there are any of any diligence or
Watergate-style aggressiveness. We don't see journalists
hounding after the fighter pilots and their commanders up the
military chain of command with the sort of vehemence with which
they go after, say, the Michael Jackson and Kobe Bryant stories,
or say the Kerry war record or the Bush military record
(Associated Press has had lawyers fighting for release of Bush
records but not the FAA or NORAD 9-11 records). Immediately
after 9-11 the FAA refused even to hold press conferences for a
very long time. No one questions or points these things out or
pursues them.

Senator Howard Baker in the Watergate hearings made famous a
very simple but powerful two-part question: "WHAT did they know
and WHEN did they know it?" Yet no one in the supposed 9-11
investigations has persistently asked those questions of the FAA
and NORAD. In fact the identity of the FAA's National Hijack
Coordinator on the morning of 9-11 is carefully protected from
public scrutiny. He has never been interviewed by the media so
far as I can tell. He was in a crucial or pivotal position like
John Dean in Watergate or Oliver North in Iran-Contra but the
media have no interest in this FAA key player in 9-11.

What did the FAA and NORAD know and exactly when, to the minute,
did they know it on 9-11? No one can tell from the officially
released reports, the timeline is confused with blatant
falsehoods on the crucial question of when they first found out
it was a hijacking. This despite all the hi-tech GPS-based NIST
atomic clock timekeeping, recordings, electronic message
traffic, etc. If you have liars in public office and employment
who shred incriminating tapes like the FAA Manager who shredded
the taped interview of the 9-11 air traffic controllers made on
the same day, 9-11, and who put pieces of the tape in various
trash receptacles around the building in order to prevent anyone
from ever retrieving and reconstructing the tape, why then you
can cover up just about anything, any crime of any magnitude,
and any mere mystery of tremendous public interest such as the
UFO phenomenon.

Apparently you can brutally kill 3,000 people in front of
everyone and you can still lie through your teeth and cover up
no matter how many so-called "commissions" and blue-ribbon
investigations are set up.

Here is the greatest and most tragic bold-faced lie of all time,
just two paragraphs apart on the same page of the 9-11
Commission Report (p. 20), beginning with the lying excuse that
NORAD's North East Air Defense Sector (NEADS) did not know where
to send its F-15 fighters to, from Otis AFB in Massachusetts:

"F-15 fighters were scrambled at 8:46 from Otis Air Force Base.
But NEADS did not know where to send the alert fighter aircraft,
and the officer directing the fighters pressed for more
information: ' I don't know where I'm scrambling these guys to.
I need a direction, a destination.' "

But two paragraphs above this outrageous falsehood of the NORAD
NEADS Mission Crew Commander at 8:44:58 AM ("I need a direction,
a destination"), in the 9-11 Commission Report we find that the
FAA had already told NORAD's NEADS that the airliner was
hijacked from out of Boston and was headed towards NEW YORK,
when the FAA Boston Center contacted NEADS at 8:37:52 AM just 7
minutes before the NORAD lie we see quoted:


"FAA: Hi. BOSTON Center TMU [Traffic Management Unit], we
have a problem here. We have a HIJACKED aircraft HEADED
TOWARDS NEW YORK, and we need you guys to, we need
someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help
us out.

NEADS: Is this real-world or exercise?

FAA: No, this is not an exercise, not a test."


The "direction" or "destination" of the F-15's should have been
New York City. How much clearer could FAA Boston Center have
been? If the FAA Boston controllers could figure out so long in
advance where the hijacked American flight was headed, that it
was headed straight towards NYC, and they told NORAD's NEADS
officials that, then how could NORAD possibly get away with such
bold-faced lying that it didn't know where to send the F-15
fighters??? It just boggles the mind that such blatant lying
falsehoods could be put so close together on the same page of a
momentous national commission report and no one comments on it,
no one notices.

This is exactly how the UFO phenomenon slips through the cracks,
and it is no oversight either, it is the deliberate not
accidental slipping into the cracks of something being covered
up.

We find out in a deeply buried footnote (actually endnote 120 on
p. 459) of the 9-11 Commission Report that in fact the F-15
fighter pilots were in direct radio contact with the FAA Boston
Center and could simply have asked the FAA at any time for info
on the location of the American airliner that was being radar
skin-tracked (probably by a "dual use" NORAD-FAA radar jointly
shared with FAA so that NORAD has even less excuse to say it
"didn't know" where the airliner was located; in fact it may
well have been the NORAD-FAA Joint Surveillance Site radar at
NEADS HQ at Griffiss AFB, Schenectady, NY, that was radar skin-
tracking the American airliner for the FAA so it might well have
been NORAD's own radar already tracking the hijacked airliner
and all the FAA would have had to do was tell NORAD which blip
it was on NORAD's own radar screens! Does anyone see the cruel
irony being concealed by this monstrous deception?).

>Designed as a Cold War sentinel against Soviet bombers, Cheyenne
>Mountain Operations Center near Colorado Springs, Colorado, and
>the military units it supported were unprepared for the 2001
>attack.

>With their eyes trained on threats from abroad, those units
>failed to stop - or even mitigate - the first attack on U.S.
>soil by a non-state, foreign enemy which slipped in undetected.

This is a bunch of lying crap. NORAD has always had "eyes
trained" on enemy bombers slipping into the U.S. "undetected"
and suddenly showing up on U.S. radar screens deep within the
U.S. - aircraft that would not have been seen coming in over the
Arctic (or perhaps from Cuba or from submarines off the coasts
or from other bases). (See below.)

A radar screen cannot tell the difference between a "non-state"
attack aircraft and a state-sponsored attack aircraft. This is
part of the U.S. military's lying spin about how it was "so
surprised" by 9-11 and just didn't know how to respond. They
will use any excuse no matter how pathetically absurd and false
to cover up its complicity in 9-11.

>But since Sept. 11, a massive security overhaul has made
>Cheyenne Mountain together with the nearby headquarters of NORAD
>and the new U.S. Northern Command (NORTHCOM) the nerve center
>of the military's anti-terrorism network, working hand-in-glove to
>thwart attacks on North America.

>"Before 9/11, we had a very limited internal focus," said Maj.
>Charles Thinger, who heads the aerospace warning center at
>Cheyenne Mountain.

Even before NORAD was established in 1957, the Air Defense
Command had a long history of trying to plan for Soviet bombers
slipping through our outer peripheral radar and fighter
defenses. The plan in 1947-49 was to start with the periphery of
the U.S. in the State of Washington and in New England as a
matter of urgency and then when funding became available to try
to later fill in the interior of the U.S. with radar networks to
detect enemy bombers that most likely will have slipped through
the leaky outer border radar network.

The Korean War opened up the funding floodgates in 1950 and soon
the interior of the U.S. was filled (however incompletely) with
air defense radar stations and even what were called "gap
filler" smaller radars in between the larger radar sites. All
deep _inside_ the U.S. and not pointed outward. I mean for
crying out loud you can't seriously tell me an air defense radar
in Oklahoma spinning in all directions around 360 degrees is
looking only for Soviet bombers coming from the north! Air
defense radars have only line-of-sight range of at most about
300 miles so no radar in Oklahoma could possibly monitor the
Canadian border so why were there hundreds of such radars all
throughout the U.S.??? Obviously the radars were looking for
enemy aircraft that sneaked through the borders. But nothing on
a mere blip on a radar screen will tell you the aircraft came
from outside or inside the U.S., so an enemy aircraft from the
Soviet Union looks just like a hijacked airliner on a radar
screen. Large aircraft look like any other large aircraft on
radar.

SAC (now STRATCOM) and NORAD have even had years of study of
possible Soviet use of bombers disguised as civilian airliners.

>"The morning of Sept. 11, there were over 3,000 aircraft flying
>over the continental United States and NORAD could track less
>than 20 percent of them," he said, referring to the U.S.-
>Canadian North American Aerospace Defense Command in charge of
>detecting and countering airborne threats.

>Today, soldiers inside "the mountain" monitor a dizzying array
>of screens featuring the real-time flight path of every
>commercial plane over the United States, as well as constantly
>updated maps, charts and diagrams channeling information which
>could presage an attack.

The U.S. military has had its own system of military air traffic
controllers for well over a half century now. Who looks at their
air traffic data on a minute-by-minute basis? What radars feed
into the military air traffic control system - which is every
bit as large as the civilian FAA air traffic control system?
Doesn't NORAD get this radar data from military controllers?

You won't find any mention of MILITARY air traffic controllers
or control networks in the 9-11 Commission Report. Just doesn't
exist I guess, like swamp gas saucers or something.

In reading declassified ADC Histories I found that all the way
back in 1952 the Air Defense Command recognized the crucial
importance to its mission of integrating FAA (then called CAA)
air traffic data into its search for hostile aircraft on a
minute-by-minute basis. Hence ADC set up joint AF-CAA Air
Defense Control Centers (ADCC's) where this was done on a
continuous minute-by- minute basis. How else are you going to
tell what is a civilian aircraft and what may be a potential
enemy aircraft? It is a total waste of military resources to
send up fighters to identify every blip on the radar when the
vast majority of them are civil aircraft, as the ADC realized in
1952. The obvious solution was to continually feed in civilian
air traffic info into military air defense centers so they could
tell which was "ours" and which were the unidentified "bogeys"
and that is excatly what they did in the ADCC's beginning in
1952.

Distinguishing civilian airliners and aircraft from potential
hostile aircraft has always been a crucial function of U.S. air
defense prior to NORAD's creation and since its establishment.
This is nothing new that suddenly came into existence
purportedly only after 9-11.

What has happened with this obviously essential joint FAA-AF
function established in 1952 and why are they all pretending to
create the same thing all over again as if this is the first
time it has been done?

>"There were no procedures in place to mitigate the kind of
>threat we saw on that day," Navy Cmdr. Mike White said at the
>joint headquarters in Colorado Springs.

Yes there were! This liar is cleverly mixing and confusing the
issues of shooting down a hijacked airliner with getting fighter
aircraft to the vicinity of aircraft in trouble. Don't tell me
that a fighter pilot without explicit orders to shoot down an
airliner but seeing an airliner heading into the second World
Trade Center tower with the first one still in flames would not
have tried _something_ to stop the second airliner, perhaps even
tried to tip the airliner's wings to bump it off course.

The real issue is the lies and deception about who knew what and
when did they know it, and why the F-16's and later the first F-
15's were all flying at only 1/3 of top speed. Who ordered them
to effectively "stand down" by dragging their feet with such
ridiculously slow speeds??? Why doesn't anyone with clout ask
these questions and demand real answers?

>He said that had now changed, thanks to expanded air patrols,
>radar coverage, information sharing and intelligence
>coordination - as well as a determination to shoot down
>civilian aircraft if necessary.

<snip>

>Shoot Down Orders

>The [9-11] commission also cited confusion and poor coordination
>between NORAD and the civilian Federal Aviation Administration,
>saying they had been unprepared to deal with such an attack. On
>Sept. 11, 2001, the order to shoot down the hijacked planes did
>not reach ready fighter jets until the last attacked airliner
>had crashed.
<snip>

Oh please, you are going to tell me that if the F-15 pilots from
Langley AFB, Virginia, had put on full thrust to get to
Washington, DC, in timely fashion instead of dawdling at 1/3
speed, that they would have done nothing while the errant
airliner flew towards the White House and Capitol then veered
off towards the Pentagon??? That's just a bunch of lying crap.

Why were fighters scrambled from 150 miles away in Norfolk, Va.,
instead of right from the Washington, DC, area at Andrews AFB???
Only later in the morning were fighters sent aloft from Andrews'
113th ANG Wing (at 10:38 AM). So the fighters were there and
could have been used earlier (but it took a worried Secret
Service to order them up). It's a simple question but it has
never been answered and at this rate 3 years later it is likely
never to be answered.

At least with the Washington National UFO incidents of 1952 we
know why the F-94's had to be scrambled long distance from New
Castle AFB, Delaware, instead of from nearby Andrews AFB where
they were normally based. It was because of runway repairs at
Andrews, the fighters had been temporarily restationed at New
Castle.








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   Sep > Sep 7

                          Re: Cattle Mutes - Belzil

From: Fern Belzil <fbelzil.nul>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 20:47:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:15:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes - Belzil


I have been investgating animal mutilations for 8 years now and
have been to nearly 100 incidents. I am not going to argue about
what several of you wrote about mutilations in the last few days.

I want to make a few observations about what is going on, here,
in Canada.

It was mentioned that most of the mutilated bovine females had
given birth a couple of weeks prior. In my investigations, the
50 or so cows that were mutilated, that was not the case. The
calves, in all cases, were a few months old.

There has never, never been a report in any mute case here,
that black helicopters were seen or heard.

If there is a connection between mutilations and BSE, time will
tell. All the animals that I have investigated were all
perfectly healthy, many were eating when mutilated.

Where does that leave us with the other mutilations that I have
investigated like a cat, a two-day-old Lamb, an elk, a moose, a
dog. Also a Buffalo that I was never able to go to?

I have found animals whose blood tests came back as hemoglobin
in several cases, as well as collagen. Other samples show
radiation etc., and in some cases magnectic field changes.

In my 2 hour presentation I have the pictures and a lot of
information. I am a rancher and I raised purebred Herefords most
of my life, which has been a plus for me in my investions.


Fern Belzil

St Paul,
Alberta, Canada








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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:02:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:21:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Sparks


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 16:04:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 15:57:23 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>Nowhere have I said that the idea that Chiles-Whitted saw a
>>spaceship is "inherently irrational", merely that there are more
>>likely explanations for the sighting.

Why is the lousy Chiles-Whitted sighting being singled out for
all this attention? The existence or non-existence of the UFO
phenomenon does not hinge on this very poor 5-10-second
sighting, which has very little to distinguish it from a
brilliant meteor fireball, as I pointed out way back in 2001 on
UFO UpDates:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/sep/m20-009.shtml

Chiles and Whitted were not trained experts in visual
observation, no matter how many hours of flight time they had,
and they provided no data such as angular elevation and azimuth
and exact reconstructed timing that might be convincing that
they had expertise in visual observation, especially short
duration events such as meteors. Nor were they astronomers so
they were not experts in meteoritics.

But Dr Lincoln LaPaz was a trained expert in visual observation,
in fact one of the world's leading experts in short duration
meteor observations whose accuracy was proven by actually
finding the fallen meteorites. And LaPaz had a multiple-witness
long duration Daylight Disc observation of a 200-foot rapidly
maneuvering white ellipsoidal UFO Daylight Disc traveling at
close to 1,400 mph peak velocity on July 10, 1947, for
approximately 2.5 minutes, where the distance was established by
the object disappearing into a cloud bank at known distance then
reappearing 5 seconds later.

LaPaz's sighting and that of the 7-minute triangulated
observation of the 200-foot hovering then hypersonic black
flying wing accelerating into earth escape velocity (25,000
mph), sighted by the world renowned U-2 and later SR-71 aircraft
designer Kelly Johnson and his top Lockheed designer-engineers
and test pilots from two separate ground and air positions about
30 miles apart and unaware of each other, on Dec 16, 1953, are
far more substantive UFO observations than the pathetically weak
strawman case of Chiles-Whitted, indeed they are just about the
best UFO visual observations in history. Why don't we talk about
this strongest evidence for the UFO phenomenon instead of the
weakest?

Or how about the triangulated Daylight Disc sighting of the 500-
foot metallic Saturn-shaped hovering UFO over the suburbs of the
Pentagon by top DoD official in charge of R&D, the Special
Assistant to the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Research &
Engineering, who saw the object hovering then suddenly take off
into space until disappearance by distance, at what I calculate
as approximately 36,000 mph average velocity. Unbeknownst to the
Pentagon official because Project Blue Book lied to him, the AF
found that the pilot of the Capitol airliner the official had
seen in the sky during the UFO sighting and whose plane he used
as a visual distance reference in the sky for comparison with
the UFO, that pilot had also seen the UFO -- and from a totally
different direction at right angles, thus providing
triangulation which proves the accuracy of the Pentagon R&D
official's calculations (such as the 6 Full Moons angular size,
plenty large enough to see tremendous detail during the 50-
second sighting and eliminate IFO explanations). The R&D
official had used instruments to reconstruct the angular details
of his sighting and reenacted it to get the precise timing.

Let's discuss the best evidence not the worst evidence shall we?
Enough is enough with these convenient strawmen cases so easily
knocked down or bogged down in swamp gases of confusion and hot
air controversy.


Brad Sparks








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   Sep > Sep 7

               Re: Secret US Watch Post Overhauled - Gerstrom

From: Ole Gerstrom <gerstrom.nul>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:01:44 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:25:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Secret US Watch Post Overhauled - Gerstrom


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:14:07 EDT
>Subject: Re: Secret US Watch Post Overhauled

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 06:52:35 -0700
>>Subject: Secret US Watch Post Overhauled

>>Source: Reuters Alertnet Foundation

>>http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N03483623.htm

>>09-06-04

>>FEATURE-Learning from 9/11, secret US watch post overhauled

>>By Caroline Drees, Security Correspondent

>>CHEYENNE MOUNTAIN, Colo., Sept 6 (Reuters) - Buried inside a
>>mountain beneath 2,000 feet (600 metres) of rock, a top-secret
>>watch post scans the skies around the clock to make sure America
>>is never again caught off guard by an attack like Sept. 11's.

>>Designed as a Cold War sentinel against Soviet bombers, Cheyenne
>>Mountain Operations Center near Colorado Springs, Colorado, and
>>the military units it supported were unprepared for the 2001
>>attack.

>ROFL! It never ceases to amaze me how the media can sure as heck
>tell us and everybody on Earth about that 'Top Secret Base'.

>Like Area 51. All that time and money and manpower to keep it
>secret and it ends up in movies, TV shows, comic books and model
>toy kits.

>Next thing ya know 'Cheyenne Mountain' will end up as some new
>action kit toy set with secret Generals and Colonels with 'Kung
>Fu grip'.


And we still have had no answer to the question why the whole
NORAD in Cheyenne Mountain was turned off on 911. How many have
been dragged into a military court for neglience?


Yours,

Ole Gerstrom
Denmark







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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:15:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:41:37 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Kaeser


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:52:31 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>I wonder what Mr Richardson hopes will be achieved by yet another
>investigation into this case.

>Does this Governor genuinely believe that:

>1. The wreckage of an ET craft has been in US govt custody for
>   57 years, and still top secret?

>2. The actual bodies of ETs are likewise still in US custody
>   for all this time?

>3. A ton or more of official documents on the case is still
>   under wraps after all this time?

>Someone ought to put these items to him, point blank. If he does
>not accept all 3, there is no point in taking it any further,
>since you cannot have a Roswell ET crash without the above
>consequences to follow.

IMO, Gov. Richardson is jumping onto the same bandwagon that the
late Cong. Steven Schiff was riding when he requested the GSA
investigation you refer to. But I'm not sure you read all of the
supporting articles related to that investigation, which clearly
showed their frustration in trying to research that event and
obtain information from the Air Force. Since I happen to work at
the U.S. House I was in contact with Schiff's staff during their
probe and it was clear that the GSA was very limited in what
they could obtain. As with everything else in this city,
politics is the name of the game, and there's no political
future in chasing ghosts or ufos.

I happen to believe there's probably a large amount of
information and material related to the event that remains
undiscovered, or hidden away in secret (as conspiratorialists
would have us believe), but I'm also not convinced that the
Governor will have any clout to get it released.It's hard to
specifically ask for records that you can't identify, and the
destruction of records related to that time period in Rowell
stymied the GSA's effort in 1996 which left them with more
questions than answers. Richardson will hit that same brick
wall, but who knows for sure until he tries.


Steve









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   Sep > Sep 7

                  Re: What's New With John Ford? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 07:32:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:46:33 -0400
Subject: Re: What's New With John Ford? - Lehmberg


>From: Kelly Freeman <Khfflsciufo.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:17:03 EDT
>Subject: Re: What's New With John Ford?

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: AlienViewGroup.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:06:24 -0500
>>Subject: What's New With John Ford?

>>John Ford, the reader recalls, was the strident Suffolk county
>>New York "UFO nut", TOO many years ago now, who "tried to
>>murder" a political rival, John Powell, by putting radium in his
>>household tooth paste.

><snip>

>>John Ford, accused of conspiracy to murder, and then locked in
>>an institution for the criminally insane facilitated by his
>>belief in the ufological, is very likely crazy_now_, just under
>>10 years into this, very likely criminal, false imprisonment. It
>>doesn't_ help_that he looks like Elmer Fudd, has a voice like
>>Daffy Duck and was as stridently litigious as Yosemite Sam is
>>angry and bellicose... it doesn't_matter_either! John was
>>likely just one more easy victim of the criminally arbitrary, a
>>pawn of a criminal aristocratic elite, and just another crushed
>>bug for the boss of a corrupt political machine.

>>What's new with John Ford?

>Alfred and Listers,

>According to the most recent letter that I have received from
>John Ford, he has indicated that he is in good spirits and seems
>optimistic about an early release.

>He expects a transfer to what he describes as a 'civil' hospital
>in the next year or so, and then from there expects to be
>released in two or three years.


Early release? Maybe.

I should mention that the County of Suffolk, if not the State of
New York, owes John Ford a box car full of money for egergiously
destroying his civil rights!

A hungry lawyer out there in CyberSpace could strike a blow for
the rights of Americans and make his name on this case alone -
it would seem - there's enough money there for a whole platoon
of lawyers, a _foundation_ of lawyers.

By all reports his legal council has _not_ done him any favors
thus far.


alienview.nul
www.AlienView.net







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   Sep > Sep 7

              Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 06:39:10 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:56:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind - Connors


An interesting thread, indeed! From a review of the fourth
compilation in the audio history of Ufology series to the
Kenneth Arnold case, Pelicanism and Chiles-Whitted case. Who
would have thought! <G>

Just a reminder that the "CE IV: An Audio History of Alien
Abduction and Animal Mutilations" MP3 disc is still available to
researchers.

Also, you may wish to consider the fifth in the series that was
just released entitled, "ETH: Dr. James E. McDonald," which
contain over 11 hours of rare audio material.

Help the audio preservation project with your donations. The CE
IV disc, containing over 25 hours of material, is available for
consideration at:

www.fadeddiscs.com

Well, that sews up this part of the thread, so let the current
seam continue. <LoL>


Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com







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                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 07:45:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:58:42 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:15:36 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:52:31 +0100
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

><snip>

>>I wonder what Mr Richardson hopes will be achieved by yet another
>>investigation into this case.

>>Does this Governor genuinely believe that:

>>1. The wreckage of an ET craft has been in US govt custody for
>>  57 years, and still top secret?

>>2. The actual bodies of ETs are likewise still in US custody
>>  for all this time?

>>3. A ton or more of official documents on the case is still
>>  under wraps after all this time?

>>Someone ought to put these items to him, point blank. If he does
>>not accept all 3, there is no point in taking it any further,
>>since you cannot have a Roswell ET crash without the above
>>consequences to follow.

>IMO, Gov. Richardson is jumping onto the same bandwagon that the
>late Cong. Steven Schiff was riding when he requested the GSA
>investigation you refer to. But I'm not sure you read all of the
>supporting articles related to that investigation, which clearly
>showed their frustration in trying to research that event and
>obtain information from the Air Force. Since I happen to work at
>the U.S. House I was in contact with Schiff's staff during their
>probe and it was clear that the GSA was very limited in what
>they could obtain. As with everything else in this city,
>politics is the name of the game, and there's no political
>future in chasing ghosts or ufos.

>I happen to believe there's probably a large amount of
>information and material related to the event that remains
>undiscovered, or hidden away in secret (as conspiratorialists
>would have us believe), but I'm also not convinced that the
>Governor will have any clout to get it released.It's hard to
>specifically ask for records that you can't identify, and the
>destruction of records related to that time period in Rowell
>stymied the GSA's effort in 1996 which left them with more
>questions than answers. Richardson will hit that same brick
>wall, but who knows for sure until he tries.

Keep hitting any stonewall, especially an unjust one, in the
same place and it crumbles with some eventually...


alienview.nul
 www.AlienView.net









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                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:18:16 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:00:13 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:15:36 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:52:31 +0100
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

><snip>

>>I wonder what Mr Richardson hopes will be achieved by yet another
>>investigation into this case.

>>Does this Governor genuinely believe that:

>>1. The wreckage of an ET craft has been in US govt custody for
>>   57 years, and still top secret?

>>2. The actual bodies of ETs are likewise still in US custody
>>   for all this time?

>>3. A ton or more of official documents on the case is still
>>   under wraps after all this time?

>>Someone ought to put these items to him, point blank. If he does
>>not accept all 3, there is no point in taking it any further,
>>since you cannot have a Roswell ET crash without the above
>>consequences to follow.

>IMO, Gov. Richardson is jumping onto the same bandwagon that the
>late Cong. Steven Schiff was riding when he requested the GSA
>investigation you refer to. But I'm not sure you read all of the
>supporting articles related to that investigation, which clearly
>showed their frustration in trying to research that event and
>obtain information from the Air Force. Since I happen to work at
>the U.S. House I was in contact with Schiff's staff during their
>probe and it was clear that the GSA was very limited in what
>they could obtain. As with everything else in this city,
>politics is the name of the game, and there's no political
>future in chasing ghosts or ufos.

>I happen to believe there's probably a large amount of
>information and material related to the event that remains
>undiscovered, or hidden away in secret (as conspiratorialists
>would have us believe), but I'm also not convinced that the
>Governor will have any clout to get it released.It's hard to
>specifically ask for records that you can't identify, and the
>destruction of records related to that time period in Rowell
>stymied the GSA's effort in 1996 which left them with more
>questions than answers. Richardson will hit that same brick
>wall, but who knows for sure until he tries.

I have no idea why CD has trouble with the idea that wreckage,
bodies and paperwork can be kept under wraps for 57 years. For
example, last November at the Eisenhower Library in response to
my question, one of the archivists indicated that they still had
about 300,000 pages of classified material.

Ike left office in 1961. There are thousands of square miles of
the USA that can't even be flown over, and one can't hide some
wreckage and a few bodies? There are also many places where
nuclear weapons are stored... without visitor tours being
conducted.

Let's get real.


Stan Friedman








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                         Is There Anybody Out There?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:49:35 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:03:12 -0400
Subject: Is There Anybody Out There?


NASA, SETI, Jodie Foster, Hostile Environments, Outer Space &
Under Da' Sea

http://www.rednova.com/news/stories/1/2004/09/07/story103.html

They sure piled it on in this story.

It's all over the place from outer space to the bottom of the
sea.


Best,

Greg







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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 11:44:34 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:06:59 -0400
Subject: Re:  Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Ledger


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 20:23:43 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 16:04:12 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>>Meantime, for specifics on how debunkers had to alter details
>>- including the time at which an independent sighting of what may
>>well have been the same UFO took place - to make the C-W
>>sighting fit into the meteor framework, see my discussion in
>>Chapter 4 of Strange Skies.

>According to Jenny Randles, the timing was exactly one hour
>different and Hynek "told the US government they had a choice.
>If the timing on the ground or the reporting of it was wrong by
>an hour then the engineer clearly saw the same object as the air
>crew." ("Something in the Air", p. 36)

<snip>

As an aside to the C-W case, Jenny Randles' report was skewed
due to her lack of knowledge of how pilots pilot, and  the
dynamics of flight etc. She is in good company.


Don Ledger








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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 14:48:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:09:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Hall


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:02:41 EDT
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 16:04:12 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 15:57:23 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>Nowhere have I said that the idea that Chiles-Whitted saw a
>>>spaceship is "inherently irrational", merely that there are more
>>>likely explanations for the sighting.

>Why is the lousy Chiles-Whitted sighting being singled out for
>all this attention? The existence or non-existence of the UFO
>phenomenon does not hinge on this very poor 5-10-second
>sighting, which has very little to distinguish it from a
>brilliant meteor fireball, as I pointed out way back in 2001 on
>UFO UpDates:

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/sep/m20-009.shtml

<snip>

>But Dr Lincoln LaPaz was a trained expert in visual observation,
>in fact one of the world's leading experts in short duration
>meteor observations whose accuracy was proven by actually
>finding the fallen meteorites. And LaPaz had a multiple-witness
>long duration Daylight Disc observation of a 200-foot rapidly
>maneuvering white ellipsoidal UFO Daylight Disc traveling at
>close to 1,400 mph peak velocity on July 10, 1947, for
>approximately 2.5 minutes, where the distance was established by
>the object disappearing into a cloud bank at known distance then
>reappearing 5 seconds later.

>LaPaz's sighting and that of the 7-minute triangulated
>observation of the 200-foot hovering then hypersonic black
>flying wing accelerating into earth escape velocity (25,000
>mph), sighted by the world renowned U-2 and later SR-71 aircraft
>designer Kelly Johnson and his top Lockheed designer-engineers
>and test pilots from two separate ground and air positions about
>30 miles apart and unaware of each other, on Dec 16, 1953, are
>far more substantive UFO observations than the pathetically weak
>strawman case of Chiles-Whitted, indeed they are just about the
>best UFO visual observations in history. Why don't we talk about
>this strongest evidence for the UFO phenomenon instead of the
>weakest?

>Or how about the triangulated Daylight Disc sighting of the 500-
>foot metallic Saturn-shaped hovering UFO over the suburbs of the
>Pentagon by top DoD official in charge of R&D, the Special
>Assistant to the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Research &
>Engineering, who saw the object hovering then suddenly take off
>into space until disappearance by distance, at what I calculate
>as approximately 36,000 mph average velocity. Unbeknownst to the
>Pentagon official because Project Blue Book lied to him, the AF
>found that the pilot of the Capitol airliner the official had
>seen in the sky during the UFO sighting and whose plane he used
>as a visual distance reference in the sky for comparison with
>the UFO, that pilot had also seen the UFO -- and from a totally
>different direction at right angles, thus providing
>triangulation which proves the accuracy of the Pentagon R&D
>official's calculations (such as the 6 Full Moons angular size,
>plenty large enough to see tremendous detail during the 50-
>second sighting and eliminate IFO explanations). The R&D
>official had used instruments to reconstruct the angular details
>of his sighting and reenacted it to get the precise timing.

>Let's discuss the best evidence not the worst evidence shall we?
>Enough is enough with these convenient strawmen cases so easily
>knocked down or bogged down in swamp gases of confusion and hot
>air controversy.

Brad,

I am omitting discussion of the Chiles-Whitted case here in
order to focus on your three examples of strong cases. They
certainly are. But you often cite cases from your personal files
or records that others have no way of seeing for themselves and
verifying independently

For example, the fact of a July 10, 1947 astronomer sighting has
been known for a long time, but not the details you report and
the identification of the key witness as LaPaz (which clearly
does make it a very strong case).

I was aware of the Kelly Johnson sighting, but where can people
read about it?

The giant Saturn-shape UFO over the Pentagon area is the most
spectacular of all, and this is the first time I ever heard of
it. What is your documentation and where can I read the full
report? For that matter, what was the date?


 - Dick










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                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:59:25 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:13:37 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:52:31 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:08:42 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>The governor obviously is just not 'with it' over Roswell, but
>wants to make some noises. Why not similar noises over The San
>Augustin 'crash' (a la Friedman) or the Aztec crash?  Both come
>under the governor's jurisdiction.

>Having just read Larry Bryant's latest, pathetic, letter to the
>Roswell Daily Record (Open letter to the Gov.), Richardson will
>doubtless realise the stupidity of the whole affair, and keep
>well away.

Yes, he should understand that the Roswell officers were
fascinated by a bunch of weather balloons and radar targets with
balsa sticks. The ones of the Mogul 4 balloon train which was
never launched, and probably would not have reached the Foster
ranch anyway.

And the GAO was so silly to write:

"The debate on what crashed at Roswell continues".

Roswell Case closed!


Gildas Bourdais








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               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:28:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:15:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 20:23:43 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 16:04:12 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>Meantime, for specifics on how debunkers had to alter details -
>>including the time at which an independent sighting of what may
>>well have been the same UFO took place - to make the C-W
>>sighting fit into the meteor framework, see my discussion in
>>Chapter 4 of Strange Skies.

>According to Jenny Randles, the timing was exactly one hour
>different and Hynek "told the US government they had a choice.
>If the timing on the ground or the reporting of it was wrong by
>an hour then the engineer clearly saw the same object as the air
>crew." ("Something in the Air", p. 36)

The witness reported seeing something very much like what
Chiles-Whitted reported. Debunkers such as Hynek then was
suggested that the witness might be mistaken about the time of
his own sighting, which may have been at the time of C-W's,
thus making the "extraordinary meteor" (Hynek's phrase)
more likely. There is no evidence that the witness was mistaken
about the time of his sighting.

>>>From their entries in my UFO Encyclopedia, I have drawn these
>>names of ufologists whom their colleagues considered of good
>>character and respectability; all are no longer among us and
>>therefore can't phone their attorneys. Please pick the names of
>>those whom you judge to have been exploiting UFOs solely or
>>primarily for personal gain:

>I wasn't referring to _dead_ ufologists. What would be the
point? The ones I have in mind are very much alive. Two or three
of those you mention are too obscure for me to know anything
about them anyway.

So you were, after all, just blowing smoke. Nobody can possibly
conclude otherwise now.

I hope that in the future we can be spared innuendo about
ufologists' motives. As we see here, John Harney's words are no
more than a poorly concealed dodge. It would do all of us well,
ufologists and their critics alike, to assume that ostensibly
sincere researchers and theorists are, in fact, sincere (even
if, from our point of view, in error about one thing or another)
-- unless we have clear evidence that they are, as John hinted,
simply out to make money, grab attention, or fool the public.
John has been able to demonstrate no such evidence, and now
essentiallay concedes that he has none.


Jerry Clark








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                          Secrecy News -- 09/07/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:17:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 07:13:23 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 09/07/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 79
September 7, 2004


**      PROPOSED FOIA EXEMPTION FOR SAT IMAGERY THREATENS ACCESS
**      DOD SEEKS RAPID ATTRIBUTION OF DOMESTIC NUCLEAR ATTACK
**      RUMSFELD ON LEAKS, OVERCLASSIFICATION


PROPOSED FOIA EXEMPTION FOR SAT IMAGERY THREATENS ACCESS

A proposed Freedom of Information Act exemption for commercial
satellite imagery would severely restrict public access to a
broad swath of unclassified government information.

The proposed exemption, already approved in the Senate, awaits
consideration this month in a House-Senate conference committee.

The text of the measure, entitled "Nondisclosure of Certain
Products of Commercial Satellite Operations," is here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/s2400-imagery.html

Almost every clause of the proposed exemption embodies notable
hostility to the conventions of open government and public
access to government information.

Thus, the exemption would apply not only to commercial satellite
images acquired by the government, but would also broadly
exclude "any... other product that is derived from such data."

This means that maps, reports, and any other unclassified
government analyses or communications that are in some way
"derived from" a commercial satellite image would become
inaccessible through FOIA.

Not only that, but "any State or local law relating to the
disclosure of information or records" would be preempted and
nullified when it comes to imagery or imagery-derived
information.

And more: the provision would not merely "exempt" all of this
information, but would positively "prohibit" its disclosure.
Government officials would be barred from releasing it under
FOIA even if they wanted to.

"The use of remote sensing imagery has become a routine and
important part of newsgathering, facilitating more compelling
news coverage," wrote Barbara Cochran of the Radio-Television
News Directors Association (RTNDA), an advocate for news media
use of commercial satellite imagery, in a letter to Congress
last week.

"The usefulness of such imagery in covering wars, refugees,
disasters, genocides, illicit weapons, etc. is readily
apparent."

But the proposed FOIA exemption would threaten this function,
she argued.

"In essence, this new FOIA exemption would result in taxpayer
dollars being used to preclude the media from adequately
informing the public about matters of critical importance that
in no way implicate the national security."

"For example, imagery of genocide or disaster sites, which the
government may have obtained, may be denied to journalists
investigating how the government responded to these calamities."

"Congress should not undermine the public's interest in knowing
what its government is up to in its quest to protect the
nation," she urged.

See her September 3, 2004 letter to the House Armed Services
Committee:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2004/09/rtnda090304.html


DOD SEEKS RAPID ATTRIBUTION OF DOMESTIC NUCLEAR ATTACK

A Defense Department initiative known as Domestic Nuclear Event
Assessment (DNEA) is pursuing the operational and analytical
capacity to rapidly identify the origin of a nuclear explosion
that occurs within the United States.

"Attribution is essential for the United States to appropriately
respond to a domestic nuclear event (DNE)," according to a newly
released portion of a Defense Science Board (DSB) study.

The DSB noted that "The requirement for attribution capability
as a part of deterrence was reaffirmed in a recent National
Security Presidential Directive," referring to NSPD 17.

"The bottom line is that DNEA is the most comprehensive,
coordinated, and organized approach ever undertaken by the U.S.
Government to identify the perpetrators of an event using a
nuclear or radiological dispersal device," the DSB report
stated.  "It is on schedule for mid-FY06 IOC [initial
operational capability]."

The previously unreported DNEA effort was described in Volume
II-A of the Defense Science Board 2003 Summer Study on DoD Roles
and Missions in Homeland Security, dated May 2004, which was
made public last week.

See the description of DNEA on pages 48-50 of the DSB report
here (157 pages, 1.5 MB PDF file):

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/dsb/homelandv2.pdf

"The WMD threat to USG [US Government] & DOD facilities,
personnel, and operations is real," according to a 2002 U.S.
Southern Command internal regulation (thanks to RT):

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/sc525-13.pdf


RUMSFELD ON LEAKS, OVERCLASSIFICATION

"Our country has forgotten how to keep a secret," said Defense
Secretary Donald Rumsfeld at an August 26 press briefing.

"We have such a hemorrhaging of information that's classified.
Every day in Washington, D.C., and around the world," he said.

Secretary Rumsfeld went on to acknowledge the fact of
overclassification, but drew no inferences as to its
relationship to the leak problem:

"Now it may very well be that a lot of information is classified
that shouldn't be, or it's classified for a period longer than
it should be. And maybe we've got to find a better way to manage
that as well."  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2004/08/dod082604.html

He made similar points in response to a question on secrecy from
Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton at an August 17 hearing of the
Senate Armed Services Committee:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2004/08/sasc081704.html




_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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               Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter -

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:59:44 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 07:18:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:02:14 EDT
>Subject: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter

>Source: Albequerque Tribune, New Mexico

>http://www.abqtrib.com/archives/news04/081804_news_ufo.shtml

>August 18, 2004

>Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter

>By Sue Vorenberg
>Tribune Reporter

>Could Roswell be the tragic site of a 1947 alien fender-bender?

>Maybe, says Gov. Bill Richardson. Maybe not, say New Mexico
>scientists.

>Still, most say they would relish the chance to investigate if
>they got it.

>"If they find little green men, I want to watch," said Eileen
>Ryan, an astrobiologist at Magdalena Ridge Observatory outside
>Socorro.

>"The thought of an alien crash is a fantastic idea, and it does
>capture people's imaginations. I seriously doubt the incident
>was real, though."

>Richardson has brought the controversial notion of a Roswell UFO
>crash back into the mysterious orange-and lime-colored lights.

>In a forward to a new book called "The Roswell Dig Diaries,"
>Richardson said he would like to see all information about the
>crash disclosed to the public.

<snip>

To be serious, does not the said governor know about the GAO
investigation in 1995, and its negative results?

Richardson does not want to use NM funds to investigate further.
Not surprising! He wants "full disclosure" by the federal guys
instead.

He simply cannot accept that there has been a "full disclosure"
already. And all it produced was : Nothing to disclose. Nothing
to declassify.  Virtually nothing at all.  Period!

There just aint no ET bodies, wreckage or top secret documents
on our beloved Roswell. And that is the bitter truth.

The "full disclosure" lies in his, and numerous others',
imagination.


CDA








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               CCCRN News: Formation Report #11 - Wadena Sask.

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:17:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 07:21:50 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Formation Report #11 - Wadena Sask.



CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

September 7, 2004

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


FORMATION REPORT #11 - WADENA, SASKATCHEWAN

With a later harvest this year, finally the first formation
report from Saskatchewan, the traditional crop circle "hot spot"
in Canada. Three ovals in wheat/pasture grass, first found
September 2. Approximately 22 metres (73 feet) long. Initial
field report, survey diagram and ground photos are posted on the
web site. Investigation in progress by CCCRN Saskatchewan. This
is the eleventh reported formation for 2004.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe, send an e-mail with either Subscribe CCCRN News or
Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the subject line to:
cccrnnews.nul

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, media and scientists

c. CCCRN, 2004








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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 04:42:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 07:24:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Sparks


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 14:48:07 +0000
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:02:41 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>Brad,

>I am omitting discussion of the Chiles-Whitted case here in
>order to focus on your three examples of strong cases. They
>certainly are. But you often cite cases from your personal files
>or records that others have no way of seeing for themselves and
>verifying independently

Hi Dick,

Sorry, I just have so little time these days even to read the
posts and can barely write responses. In this case I could only
hastily compose a response off the cuff. I should have pointed
out that more technical detail and references are available in
my latest available Version 1.7 of my Comprehensive Catalog of
Blue Book Unknowns, which is on the CUFOS website, though only
the older versions seem to be on other websites.

>For example, the fact of a July 10, 1947 astronomer sighting has
>been known for a long time, but not the details you report and
>the identification of the key witness as LaPaz (which clearly
>does make it a very strong case).

Hynek interviewed LaPaz in his astronomer survey for Blue Book,
at the annual meeting of the American Astronomical Society in
June 1952 and explicitly was told by LaPaz that he (LaPaz) was
the astronomer UFO witness in the Life magazine article of April
7, 1952. This has been known since NICAP's publication of
Hynek's report in the Grudge-BB Status Reports back in 1968.

Some of the details are simple physics calculations based on the
details in LaPaz's report (most of which I do in my head since
they are rough numbers anyway and don't justify the making of
elaborate calculations).

>I was aware of the Kelly Johnson sighting, but where can people
>read about it?

See my BB Unknowns Catalog and Joel Carpenter's IUR article
based on our joint investigation at a preliminary stage. But
keep in mind the main documents are in the Blue Book files and
have been available since their release in 1976. There were a
few key pages the AF deliberately removed. Don Berliner copied
one and the other came out in Bill Weitzel's discovery of the
unsanitized AF microfilm in 1998 -- but no one put them together
until still years later because the UFO community has never
digested this strongest known evidence for the UFO phenomenon,
namely, the AF files. Instead the UFO community perversely
attacks and disparages the AF files on the grounds that Blue
Book had such poor investigations even though Blue Book
generated very little of the files and simply collected them in
one place from many different sources.

Many very competent observers sometimes with sophisticated
tracking instruments sent excellent reports through AF channels
that ended up at Blue Book, and whatever Blue Book did or did
not do with the cases has no bearing whatsoever on the quality
of the original reporting. Yet the UFO community seems to take
the attitude that whatever Blue Book _touched_ becomes
worthless, which is a very short-sighted policy.

>The giant Saturn-shape UFO over the Pentagon area is the most
>spectacular of all, and this is the first time I ever heard of
>it. What is your documentation and where can I read the full
>report? For that matter, what was the date?

Sorry about my hasty writeup. It was Oct 7, 1958. See Loren
Gross' histories and supplements and my BB Unknowns Catalog. Jan
Aldrich very kindly gathered together for me every scrap he
could find on this startling and important case. I put some of
my technical analysis in the latest revision of my BB Catalog. I
discovered triangulation in the independent sighting by the
airline pilot which Blue Book suppressed in its zeal to write it
all off with a preposterous Menzelian explanation (the type that
routinely violates all principles of optical physics). So
naturally the AF did not notice the pilot corroboration or its
triangulation, despite Ruppelt's moanings in his book that
triangulated observations were just about the most important UFO
data to obtain.

Indeed it is very possible that this sighting so rattled the AF
that it was forced to replace Capt Gregory with an officer with
stronger science background, namely physicist Capt (later Lt
Col) Friend, who could more convincingly fend off DoD and
Congressional inquiries (yes the AF and DoD were always at odds
on many subjects not just UFO's, earlier in 1958 for example,
DoD had taken over the AF's spy satellite program and put it
under the brand new ARPA agency, though the arrangement didn't
last long).

Brad








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               Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter -

From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 08:55:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 11:51:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter -


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:59:44 +0100
>Subject: Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter


>There just aint no ET bodies, wreckage or top secret documents
>on our beloved Roswell. And that is the bitter truth.

I beg to disagree, although I am not personally convinced that
there is any ET component to Roswell.


Bob








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               Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter -

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:27:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 12:10:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter -


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:59:44 +0100
>Subject: Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter

<snip>

>To be serious, does not the said governor know about the GAO
>investigation in 1995, and its negative results?

>Richardson does not want to use NM funds to investigate further.
>Not surprising! He wants "full disclosure" by the federal guys
>instead.

>He simply cannot accept that there has been a "full disclosure"
>already. And all it produced was : Nothing to disclose. Nothing
>to declassify. Virtually nothing at all. Period!

>There just aint no ET bodies, wreckage or top secret documents
>on our beloved Roswell. And that is the bitter truth.

>The "full disclosure" lies in his, and numerous others',
>imagination.


I think the Governor is well aware of the GAO report, but you
seem to be of the impression that it closed the book on Roswell,
which even the GAO admitted was not the case.They were limited
in the scope of information that they could ask for, and they
found that information that "should" have been available had
been destroyed and there was no record of who had authorized
that destruction. All of this was frustrating to the GAO
investigators, who spoke of it privately and it was only hinted
at in the actual report. Former Congressman Steven Schiff
considered taking this to the next level, which would have
required backing from others in Congress, and this issue was
overcome by other events that took everyone's attention.

What is forgotten by many is that the Air Force feared the
outcome of the GAO investigation and began their own probe into
the Roswell event in 1995 at about the same time as Schiff's GAO
request. Most people fail to realize that the
compartmentalization of information can result in very limited
awareness of highly classified events or projects.

I believe there's little argument that something happened in
Corona that caused the Roswell Army Air Base to send Jesse
Marcel Sr. and Sheridan Cavitt to the ranch to see what the
"debris" was. This event is fairly well documented, but it's now
been shown that the US AAF (and later the Air Force) changed
it's story several times as to what had crashed. Indeed, the
1995 Air Force investigation seems to be as much in the dark
about the event as most UFO researchers, so one has to assume
that they also failed to find any records pertaining to the
event.

The approach that the Sci-Fi Channel has taken in this is the
first new methodology applied to this case in many years, and
I'm glad that they've found an approach to take that hasn't been
done before. It didn't prove to be fruitfull, per se, but that
doesn't mean it shouldn't have been attempted.

My problem with Roswell is that there is no way to prove
anything without additional information (which may never be
available). Too much of this tale is annecdotal and has tended
to evolve through the years as the story became more and more
complex. Wading through the information is becoming more
difficult without becoming frustrated with the inconsistancies,
and many good researchers have left the field entirely after
finding that their time isn't being well spent.

But, when all is said and done, we still haven't proven what
happened near Corona in July of 1947. There are many theories
and beliefs, expressed by those on all sides of this issue, but
the debate will continue.


Steve








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                        Re: Cattle Mutes - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 02:57:36 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:59:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes - Stevenson


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:46:46 EDT
>Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes

>>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:15:09 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes

<snip>

>>Does everyone have to be brainless...

><snip>

>>... and why do we have to 'put up' with
>>all the disinformation and lies?

>>Could someone on the List explain without pointing out a
>>conspiracy theory?

>>Could it be that ET and associates have been given permission to
>>do what they like in our best interests one wonders?

>You yourself just stated the wildest "conspiracy theory" of all
>- that "ET and associates" are conspiring with world governments.

Hi Brad and List

Suppose I ought to explain more fully.

ET may have been given permission to do anything so long as it
is in Mankind's best interest. If it is so then I can not see a
conspiracy just a permission. A conspiracy would involve more
than that surely.

For example; ET may have said they would like to help Humans and
Earth. Point of contact Military may have said "Yes please do if
you wish."

I am not saying this is true but it could be although I know you
may point to data which is contrary.


Kind regards

Col
http://www.colsweb.com








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                           UFO Collection For Sale

From: Perry Petrakis <perry.petrakis.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:14:07 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:06:52 -0400
Subject: UFO Collection For Sale


For Sale:

On an auction basis, a unique UFO collection. Over 30 years of
research in France - more than 400 UFO books in French, Spanish,
English, Italian, thousands of UFO journals from around the
world, news clippings, tapes and video, research material from
the core of French research during some of the best years (1970
- 2000). Sold as a whole.

Make offer to: perry.petrakis.nul


Best Wishes,

Perry Petrakis
perry.petrakis.nul






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                          It's The Martians' Fault!

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:18:17 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:11:26 -0400
Subject: It's The Martians' Fault!


H.G. Wells' "War of the Worlds" is being made, again, into a major
motion picture.

We just can't leave them Martians alone! We've just gotta have a
Martian around!

Here we are 100 years or more later and we're still reading that
book, the movies, the tv shows or some such based on Wells'
vision of an invasion from the red planet.

Now we've two rovers and satellites on Mars snooping about and
digging up this and scooping up that in hopes we'll find that
one piece of proof that Martians exist or existed.

It would be ironic if one day we humans have scoured the
Universe and found life everywhere except Mars. It would be
disappointing I'm sure. We'd have to toss away all that good
literature and eye candy. If there aren't Martians maybe would
make some and put them there and not tell the kids so that when
they grow up and venture out into space they'll find Martians.
We can spend the time in between blaming Martians instead of the
Boogieman or the Tooth Fairy. Y'know give us some breathing room
when those tough questions arise like,

"Hey Dad, why can't I have an increase in my allowance?" You can
then use the old, "Why them Martians! It's their fault! They're
messing with our economy with the Inflationatron Ray Gun!"

See, we could give parents and grandparents a good 20 years or
more of easy excuses til the kids find out and then join in on
the fun so they'll have some peace of mind when they have kids.

I brought all this up because I read an extremely funny story a
man brought up in rememberance of his mom at her funeral. He
recalled how his mom told the story of what happened during the
original radio broadcast by Orson Wells' of H.G. Wells' "War of
the Worlds" 'It's a loving story that just says what America's
about that I could relate to because my own mom told me about
the same thing when the country was spellbound during the
original broadcast of Orson Wells' radio broadcast of "War of
the Worlds". I would giggle as a child listening to her talk
about how friends and family got the 'shootin' irons' out and
hid in the church or the root cellar or even rallied round the
'Y' awaiting the menacing legions of Martians to arrive.

It always has and still makes me giggle.

I can still make some of the old folk jump a bit if I say the
word "Martians!"

I'll get cussed out and a shoe flung at me but it's worth it
sometime.

I just blurt back, "Hey, it wasn't me it was them Martians
again! "

Anybody remember that broadcast or have a story about what
happened or has anyone on the List written a book or mentioned
it on video?


Best,

Greg








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                     The Good People You Meet In Ufology

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 10:41:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:12:56 -0400
Subject: The Good People You Meet In Ufology


One thing I always treasure about Ufology is the chance to meet
people of all walks of life. It's a blessing to get to shake
their hands or just get to say 'Howdy'. Some folks are so
amazing they deserve stories about themselves.

Many a time I've sat and listened to a witness or abductee or
researcher and have been astounded at their achievements. Many a
time I ask them for an autograph!

There are so many unsung heroes and heroines amongst the public
that it's a shame we don't spend more time giving them the
recognition they deserve.

I would spend hours upon hours listening to WWI or WWII veterans
spin their tales and would thrill at their exploits. Deeds of
self-sacrifice and courage you couldn't imagine. Made me
appreciate my elders and neighbors who stood up in those days.

It's really, really a treat to meet good folk.

Even today I spend time volunteering with seniors and my reward
is just the chance to hear about history from the folks who made
it.

So I found this story on the web about a lady I'm sure many of
you have met or passed by or glanced at at the Roswell museum.
People like Mrs.Kane-Doerhoefer are what makes the world a
better place.

Best,

Greg

-----

Source; The Roswell daily Record

http://www.roswell-record.com/archives/090604/news08.html

Kane-Doerhoefer's community spirit gives hope to others

Christopher Cunningham
Record Staff Writer

Although retired since 1998, Rita still manages to be one of the
busiest people in the city of Roswell. A volunteer for
Magistrate Court, the American Red Cross, the Roswell Literacy
Council and many other community organizations,
Kane-Doerhoefer's primary motivation seems to be her boundless
energy.

"What am I going to do? Sit home and vegetate?" asked the spry,
tanned 56-year-old in a recent interview.

Originally from Chicago, Kane-Doerhoefer has lived in Roswell
since 1992 and in the Southwest since the 1970s. Nevertheless,
she was quick to point out her loyalty to her hometown.

"I am a devout Chicago Cubs and Bears fan," she said. Indeed,
attached to her blouse were two small ornamental pins: a Cubs
logo and a blue Chicago Bears helmet.

With a bachelor's degree in education from the University of
Miami (Fla.) and a master's degree in education from Loyola
University Chicago, Kane-Doerhoefer started out as a teacher. In
1974, she moved to Albuquerque to study for her doctorate at the
University of New Mexico, but after graduating decided to switch
careers.

"The Albuquerque school district wouldn't hire me because I was
overqualified for a beginning teacher," said Kane-Doerhoefer.

She became an insurance claims adjuster in 1977, and first
visited Roswell while on a business trip from Phoenix. Her
experience in insurance claims, where conflict resolution is
part of the job, as well as her upbeat personality, have
certainly helped Kane-Doerhoefer as a volunteer mediator for the
Roswell Magistrate Court.

The Magistrate Court handles minor crimes such as misdemeanors
and decides civil disputes involving suits of less than $10,000.
The volunteer mediators try to help the two parties involved in
a suit come to an agreement without having to see a judge.

"Then they both have a say in how the case is settled and both
parties come out happier," said Tobie Fouratt, chief clerk at
the Magistrate Court.

Mediators like Kane-Doerhoefer are particularly successful in
this process, said Fouratt.

"She's very knowledgeable because of her background. She's very
friendly, very compassionate."

A mediator must also be prepared to deal with many varieties of
conflict, according to Kane-Doerhoefer.

"I hear everything from disputes about dogs to poor workmanship
to 'you owe me money.'"

The mediators also reduce the strain on the legal system through
their volunteer efforts.

"We save the city of Roswell countless tax dollars by doing
this," she said.

Kane-Doerhoefer also works as a paid mediator for the Fifth
Judicial District Court, but she donates her paycheck to
charity.

Her background as an insurance claims adjuster also comes into
play in her volunteer work for the American Red Cross, for whom
she sometimes assesses damage after a disaster.

She also strives to be very well-informed, which also helps,
according to Dara Dana, branch manager of the Rio Hondo branch
of the American Red Cross, where Kane-Doerhoefer volunteers. As
a member of the Disaster Action Team, said Dana, one of Kane-
Doerhoefer's tasks is to explain Red Cross services to victims.

"Part of a Red Cross volunteer's job is to help get the Red
Cross message out to the public, and Rita is a great spokeswoman
for us.

"She's very articulate and that's one thing that's very
important for our volunteers," Dana said.

Kane-Doerhoefer's education background is also useful in her
career as a full-time volunteer. She is a Roswell Literacy
Council board member and a reading tutor. Reading is one of her
favorite activities, and she enjoys helping others learn this
basic skill.

"I am a reader. I am a card-carrying member of the Roswell
Public Library," said Kane-Doerhoefer.

She is concerned about many Hispanic immigrants' inability to
read English, and she doesn't let her lack of Spanish-speaking
ability stop her from teaching English as a second language.

"If you can't read, you can't even decipher what's in a can of
soup."

Kane-Doerhoefer also spends plenty of time as a volunteer in
Roswell's recreational activities. Soon after she retired, she
spent four years as a tour guide at the local UFO International
Museum and Research Center. And yes, Kane-Doerhoefer is a
believer.

"I believe that the Roswell Incident is true," she said.

She also is involved in the many parades that occur in Roswell,
and frequently lends her well-known fleet of nine vintage cars
for these events. She is the chairwoman of the Pi=C3=B1ata Fest
parade, and her yellow 1951 Buick always makes an appearance as
the lead car. Her classic vehicles also make regular appearances
in the Veterans Day parades.

Even politicians have benefited from the use of her famously
attractive automobiles.

"Michael Trujillo was running for county commissioner. I put him
in my big yellow Buick and he won =E2=80=94 the only Democrat on the
County Commission."

Kane-Doerhoefer also helps out at the Eastern New Mexico State
Fair, supports the Valley Christian Academy with generous
donations and this year was the co-chair for the American Cancer
Society Relay for Life fund-raiser in Roswell. The relay,
however, has particular resonance for Kane-Doerhoefer. Her
father, sister and husband all died of cancer, and her mother
was a six-time survivor of cancer before dying of the flu this
year.

"We walk all night because cancer never sleeps," she said,
referring to the overnight relay.

Besides her incredible energy, Kane-Doerhoefer also has a desire
to give back to her community.

"I just feel like giving," she said, adding that Roswell depends
on the efforts of volunteers like her.

"This city does not run without volunteers."

Getting out and getting to know her fellow city residents is
something that Kane-Doerhoefer particularly enjoys about
volunteering.

"I can go anywhere and talk to anyone. That's the best part
about it."

"You'd be surprised how people open up when you tell them you're
a volunteer," she said, referring to her reading students at the
Roswell Literacy Council.

Nevertheless, community service can exact a toll on even the
most intrepid volunteer. As a mediator at the Fifth Judicial
District Court, Kane-Doerhoefer deals mainly with child abuse
cases.

"I have seen and heard of horrific abuse of children," she said.

"It emotionally drains me. I feel so bad for these kids that
can't stand up for themselves."

But, she added, her work must be done, so she does it. And
ultimately, the simplest rewards make it all worthwhile.

"When someone says a mere 'thank you', that's all I need."







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   Sep > Sep 8

                        The Search For Livable Worlds

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:26:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:26:22 -0400
Subject: The Search For Livable Worlds




Source: The New York Times

Editorials/Op-ed

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/08/opinion/08wed3.html?ex=1095307200&en=4dc436d89
ed1d709&ei=5006&partner=ALTAVISTA1

09-08-04


The Search For Livable Worlds

Published:

Scientists eager to find life on other worlds - or at least ones
that might support Life as We Know It - felt a shiver of
excitement last week. Three teams of astronomers reported
finding the smallest distant planets yet detected, suggesting
that Earth-size planets with benign climates might be just
around the corner. But there was a bit of discouraging news as
well. A new calculation suggests that scientists may be looking
in the wrong places for messages sent by any distant intelligent
beings.

The pace of planetary discovery has been steadily quickening. A
decade ago scientists did not know of even a single planet
outside our solar system. Now they have found more than 100. Of
course, they haven't actually seen them. They are far too
distant and dim. Instead, scientists have inferred their
presence from the slight wobbles their gravitational pull causes
in their stars or from a slight dimming of a star's light as a
planet passes across it.

Until last week, all the planets detected had been huge, gaseous
blobs circling their suns at very close range. That is no
surprise. The bigger and closer a planet is, the more likely it
is to cause its star to wobble. But two American teams and one
European team have now detected planets the size of Neptune or
Uranus, some 14 to 20 times the mass of Earth. These planets,
too, orbit their stars at too close a range for our form of
life. But scientists say they are increasingly comfortable with
the notion that there are an enormous array of planets out
there, and that some of them are bound to be rocky orbs with
temperatures that can permit liquid water and possibly life.
Probably no Earth-size planet will be found until NASA launches
a planet-hunting spacecraft in coming years.

Meanwhile, scientists searching for extraterrestrial
intelligence will still scan electromagnetic waves reaching
Earth for signs of a message that a far-off civilization may
have sent.

The theory has been that radio waves or lightwaves are the
fastest way to send messages across interstellar distances, so
they are the most likely form of communication for an
intelligent civilization. But an analysis in Nature this week
suggests that a message longer than just a "Hi, we're here" kind
of thing would be sent most efficiently in physical form, much
like a message in a bottle. That suggests that we should be
looking for the alien equivalent of a letter in our own
planetary backyard, analogous to the monolith left on the moon
by aliens in "2001: A Space Odyssey" by Arthur C. Clarke. The
only hitch is that such a message, traveling at a crawl by space
standards, might have been sent 30 million years ago, and who
knows whether the senders would have moved on or died off in the
eons since. Best not to give up on electromagnetic messages
entirely.


[UFO UpDates thanks Greg Boone for the lead]






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   Sep > Sep 8

                   NY Times On The SETI And Planet Hunting

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:29:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:29:01 -0400
Subject: NY Times On The SETI And Planet Hunting



http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/08/opinion/08wed3.html?ex=1095307200&en=4dc436d89
ed1d709&ei=5006&partner=ALTAVISTA1

One of these days, just one of these days the NY Times is going
to catch on and ask Stanton T. Friedman to appear on the cover
of their paper and let him debate the Air Force's best.

Then you're gonna see some action!


Best,

Greg








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   Sep > Sep 8

               Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter -

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:15:29 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:31:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter -


>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 08:55:13 -0400
>Subject: Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:59:44 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter

>>There just aint no ET bodies, wreckage or top secret documents
>>on our beloved Roswell. And that is the bitter truth.

>I beg to disagree, although I am not personally convinced that
>there is any ET component to Roswell.

>Bob

It is a source of never-ending wonderment how so many UK non-
ufologists (or anti-ufologists) can pronounce the ultimate truth
with such absolute certainty.


  - Dick








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   Sep > Sep 8

                           Filers Files #38 - 2004

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 12:31:53 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:44:15 -0400
Subject: Filers Files #38 - 2004


Filers Files #38 - 2004, Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern
Vice President of Skywatch International
September 8, 2004, Webmaster: Chuck Warren


Witnesses Are Truthful

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space as reported each week. These Files make the
assumption that extraterrestrial intelligent life exists and my
hypothesis that the over a hundred UFO reports each week
represent factual UFO sightings in our skies. This week reports
have been received from Mars Green Valleys, Maine, New
Hampshire, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois,
Missouri, Nebraska, Colorado, California, Canada, Chile, UK,
Finland, and Australia. Country Stars Take Center Stage, and
Shape Shifters caught on film.

Witnesses Are Truthful

Each week more than a hundred sighting reports are received by
Peter Davenport at the National UFO Reporting Center. Many other
reports are taken by various UFO organizations in almost every
country in the world. I admit that some of these are probably
mistaken identifications of mundane objects, but many are valid
reports from honest people from all walks of life. I would like
to point out that most of these UFO sightings are seen by more
than one witness and often are seen by dozens of people. For
hundreds of years science ignored similar reports of meteorites
falling to the ground from space, and only over the last hundred
years have these reports been taken seriously. Now the same
meteorites are being tested for living bacteria. Apparently,
bacteria can travel millions of miles through space and arrive
safely. Therefore, the evidence is now conclusive that life can
survive on most planets. Therefore, it seems reasonable to
assume that space that we now know includes millions of planets
most likely has other forms of intelligent life. Witnesses
include pilots, astronauts, presidents, scientists and even
Indian Chiefs. My experience is that most sighting reports are
truthful events describing an advanced form of technology.

Travel Between Stars Takes Several Weeks

Most scientists believe the reason UFOs cannot be here is
because of the great distance between star systems. NASA
scientist Paul Hill in his book "Unconventual Flying Objects"
provides the mathematical formulas to show that the travel time
between planets in various solar systems for the occupants is
less than it took for our ancestors to reach America. Although
the apparent time is longer, the equations have been checked by
the Langley Research Center and interstellar mission profiles
can take only weeks or a few months. For example Paul Hill
states, "It is possible for an interstellar trip to be very
short. The trip from our nearest neighbor, Alpha Centuri, a
triple star system 4.3 light years away, made by accelerating at
140 g to av/c of 0.9999 is accomplished from a standing start to
a standing finish in 6 weeks, 0.115 year." (P. 272)

Mars - Green Valleys

Norman Bryden writes, " I just wanted to remind all of you not
to forget about the life and running water on Mars. Below is
European Space Agency image of Mars.

Maine - Triangle Shaped Formation

PALERMO - Two friends were watching the sky at 10 PM, and saw an
elongated triangle shaped formation that looked like stars
moving slowly overhead on August 22, 2004. It looked like a
bright star as it moved towards the mountain across from
Palermo. The front point dimmed, as it got further away, as if
going behind a cloud. The last two points followed in the same
direction as the first light. Even though it was a clear night,
the lights dimmed slowly, and maintained their formation of
lights that did not blink. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

New Hampshire - Zeppelin-like Lights

MANCHESTER -- There were four lights in the southern sky on
August 21, 2004, at 7:04 PM. The witness stated, =E2=80=9DThese lights
were quite obviously not associated with any human-made craft,
given their strange movement.=E2=80=9D They moved far too slowly to be
airplanes or helicopters. The four lights hovered Zeppelin-like
and blinked a pale yellow light. They remained in the skies for
over forty-five minutes. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

Connecticut - Disk

WOODBURY - On August 22, and we were driving home from my
birthday party at 1 PM, when I saw a disk with a slightly domed
roof hovering in the sky. The disk was hovering at a very high
altitude and looked metallic because the sun gleamed off its
surface. The witness states, "I could see enough of the craft
to tell it was a disk with a slightly domed roof and I had my
Mom look and told her, its a UFO. She responded "OK, cool, I
believe you (in a sarcastic tone)" I turned to argue, when I
looked back it was gone.

NEW FAIRFIELD - Three stationary stars were seen in a non-
blinking triangle, and continuous in size, shape and orientation
on August 21, 2004, at 10:30 PM. These huge lights moved slowly
east and were flying at extremely high altitude avoiding all
existing stars perfectly so that none were blocked out as it
traversed the clear sky. The Milky Way was visible and the
object made a question mark course towards the Southern sky
where the lights quickly vanished before our eyes. ((NUFORC
Note: We suspect that the witness may have observed the three
satellites, thought to be part of the U. S. Navy's "NOSS"
satellite system. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

New York - Flying Triangle

UTICA - Coming out of work the witness was walking across the
parking lot, when he noticed a triangle shaped object flying
overhead that lit up like stars on August 21, 2004, at 10:30 PM.
He states, "There was a faint white light at each point of the
triangle as it moved in a strait line with no sound.=E2=80=9D At first
we thought it was a plane, but if it was a stealth fighter or
bomber, it was flying sideways. The greatest length was front to
back rather than side-to-side. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director www.UFOCenter.com

Pennsylvania - Light Groupings Spotted

BETHEL PARK -- On Sunday night August 22, 2004, a married couple
were lying in the backyard on a comforter watching the stars at
9 PM, when they saw a bright star-like object approaching very
slowly from the east, northeast. The witness said, "Look at
that." It was continuing on its straight course, with no
blinking lights and no sound. About a second or so later it
began to grow dimmer and dimmer and then just disappeared. I
would compare it to someone trimming a kerosene lamp and then
extinguishing it. It was a clear night, no clouds, so it
couldn't have flown into a cloudbank. We searched the skies with
our eyes and binoculars but it had vanished. It was going too
slow to be a meteor and left no trail. ((NUFORC Note: If the
estimate of direction is accurate, the object probably was not a
satellite, since only very few satellites fly to the west. PD))

PHOENIXVILLE -- On August 23, 2004, the witness was walking his
dog at roughly 11:45 PM, when he saw flashing green, red, and
white lights in the northwestern sky. The object stayed in same
location for 45 minutes and three additional lights were viewed
through binoculars not as bright or large. Lights could be seen
as rings of green flashing lights with red lights above and
below the ring. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

Tennessee - UFO Video

September 4th, 2004 at 19:54 eastern, this anomoly was spotted
moving to the west at a fairly high altitude. The object
displays charateristics not unlike the object which was
photographed by a MUFON Tn. member as he travelled along
Interstate 81 back in June.

The object shown in this clip and stills is at 40 X optical zoom
so there should be little doubt that this object was very
strange.

The object moved west making slow angular changes in course and
simply disappeared.

BRISTOL -- Kim Shaffer MUFON TN State Director reports that on
September 4th, 2004 at 19:54 eastern, an anomaly was spotted
moving to the west at a fairly high altitude. The object
displays characteristics not unlike the object which was
photographed by a MUFON TN. member as he traveled along
Interstate 81 back in June.

The object shown in this clip and stills is at 40 X optical zoom
so there should be little doubt that this object was very
strange.

The object moved west making slow angular changes in course and
simply disappeared.

Thanks to Kim Shaffer See video at:
http://www.mufontennessee.org/

Indiana - Flying Triangle

FT. WAYNE - On August 31, 2004, a senior at Indiana Tech
University spotted a flying triangle on the way to school on
State Road 30 towards Warsaw, Indiana about 9:20 PM. As I drove
I noticed it looked funny, and was hovering over some trees off
to the right of the highway. When I came up upon it, it darted
over the highway into the field off to my left. As I drove up, I
put my window down to see if I could hear anything such as rotor
blades if it was a helicopter or engines if it was a plane. But,
nothing! The object was triangular in shape, a white/blue light
on each end of the triangle, and in the middle, it had a red
light, that flashed white around it, almost like a strobe light.
I had pulled off to the side of the road like an idiot, but I
wanted to know exactly what I was looking at! Not to much
traffic either on the highway that night, so it was pretty quiet
outside! Very strange to say the least. The second time in as
many months that I've seen a strange objects! Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Illinois - Iridescent UFO

ATKINSON - The object appeared as a dim light at around 7:50 PM,
on August 22, 2004, and four observers saw it grow more intense
after five to ten minutes over Northwest Illinois Sunday night.
I yelled for my parents to come outside with the binoculars, and
we each took turns looking at the apparent UFO over the next
several minutes. It had three lights in a triangular fashion
that would appear, disappear, and reappear; almost as if it was
rotating in a fixed position in the sky. It continued to do this
until the craft departed, leaving a vapor trail, at an angle
going upward and westward. Right before it disappeared for good,
my brother was the one who had the binoculars at the time, and
he claimed that the craft seemed to morph into an iridescent
disc of shining red, blue, green, and yellow, before zipping
off. I am not sure if it was a coincidence, but at the moment
that the craft disappeared, a jet flying at a lower altitude
than the craft was flying across the sky in the same vicinity as
the UFO. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Missouri - Flying Stars

BUFFALO - The witness reports, "A couple of friends and I
stopped on a rural bridge to look at the stars on August 21,
2004, at 11:30 PM, and noticed a blinking 'star" waving back
and forth. After watching the craft dash in and out, side to
side, and up and down we called my brother and his wife. After
ten minutes of watching they both concluded that it had to be a
UFO for the way that it was moving. They watched for an hour and
noticed all of the little stars around it were blinking
sporadically, moving and jolting slightly, and just
disappearing. The objects seemed to be communicating with each
other by blinking red or white lights or both. They would come
and go and move around the sky. We watched the objects for three
hours and we could see twenty moving. Eight people saw the
maneuvering lights and everyone would tell you the same thing.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Nebraska - Flying Triangle

FALLS CITY - The witness was outside admiring the Milky way as
it was a really clear night on August 22, 2004, at 10:55 PM, and
noticed a "constellation" of three stars forming an isosceles
triangle about the size of a dollar bill held at arms length was
moving slowly south. It took thirty seconds to disappear behind
the horizon from directly overhead. From my days of satellite
watching, I could tell that it was not in the atmosphere. The
three lights were as dim as the dimmest stars and hard to see at
times. It also seems to me that it was blacking out stars
because I was left with the impression that it was solid. I just
can't get over two things; I swear that they were not moving
initially, and were blacking out the stars behind them. Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Colorado - Downtown UFO sighting

DENVER - The witness was on a downtown roof top loft laying his
hammock on August 23, 2004, at 1 AM, when he saw a star moving.
This object had to be way up there; it was a size of a small
star and stopped every so often. The speed would increase and
decrease every so often but not super fast. I followed it, and
then another one caught my eye as they stopped. They flew at an
altitude higher than a plane. I watched until the two objects
flew behind a high, thin cloud that was partially over downtown.
I was watching the sky for several minutes before I saw movement
and the objects. No noise, no beams, nothing of that nature,
they were the size of small stars, very high up, and the same
color of the surrounding.

ENGLEWOOD - A MUFON member took the opportunity to Skywatch on
August 23, 2004, at 2:55 PM, and saw a "fast-mover," a dim
sphere traveling due south a bit faster than a jet or a
satellite. Through binoculars, it was circular and reminiscent
of the others I've seen recently, appearing to reflect the sun a
bit. Through binoculars, it traveled into a feathery cloud, and
I didn't see it come out the other side. Lowering the
binoculars, I noted that the cloud was not very large at all, so
it was odd that the object didn't come out the other side, and I
looked but couldn't find it with the naked eye either. Just a
few moments later, at 3 PM, I saw this object or another one,
which suddenly appeared almost directly overhead. It was shining
as bright as Vega but in the daytime sky. It remained absolutely
motionless, for about three minutes. Through binoculars it
appeared to be a perfectly circular, white object, with the
typical thin crescent of darker "shadow" area on its side
opposite the sun and remained steady and very bright. I lowered
the binoculars briefly as a cloud moved into the area of the
sphere, and then looked again through binoculars and saw a solid
BLACK sphere moving through the cloud. I watched as the apparent
color changed instantaneously. At 3.05 I noticed it had moved
from its stationary position just south of an overhead wire to
the north, by several degrees, and then it started heading to
the east/northeast rather slowly, until by about 3.08 it had
passed behind some trees and continued out of sight, now lower
than halfway between horizon and zenith as it traveled away from
me.

((NUFORC Note: The object moved from its stationary position
just south of an overhead wire to the north, by several degrees,
and then it started heading northeast rather slowly, until by
about 3.08 it had passed behind some trees. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

California - Round Reflective Object

ROCKLIN -- On August 22, 2004, four witnesses were sitting on
their balcony at 6:10 PM, when they noticed a circular and
reflective object they thought might be a balloon. The witness
states, "I pointed the object out to the three others who were
all in their late 30"s to early 40"s. We watched for a five
minutes and also noticed another fainter object to the right and
higher. We were discussing what this might be, when I saw a
reflective object fly by at high speed. When I looked up to
where I originally saw the object, it was gone along with the
fainter object. It was something like a translucent insect
reflecting the sunlight high up in the sky, but I didn't get a
good feel on their actual altitude. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director www.UFOCenter.com

SONORA -- Another Triangular object was videotaped by two
witnesses on separate camcorders on August 8, 2004. The first
two pictures below are still shots from the videos. This object
was seen to come up over Lyons Bald Mountain, then go back down,
only to reappear and travel from the north to the south. Video
clips can be found here:
http://www.sonorasightings.com/54610.html. This is the third
triangular object videotaped over, CA since May. The second was
the daytime triangular object videotaped on June 15, 2004 []

Thanks to Mark A. Olson, D.M. www.sonorasightings.com

Canada -- Slow Moving Rectangle

VICTORIA, BC -- On August 22, 2004, a low flying dark rectangle
with a white light at each end flew horizontally across Juan De
Fuca Straight at 10 PM. It then slowly lifted into the upper
atmosphere where the lights became faint. There was a flash and
a streak of light and suddenly it was gone. It was much too
white and bright to be a meteorite.

DUN CHURCH -- On the evening on August 21, 2004, four witnesses
were sitting around a campfire at our cottage on Whitestone Lake
looking for satellites going by at 10:41 PM. The evening was
perfectly clear and there were millions of stars visible with
only a little moonlight. They noticed a satellite with two more
behind it in a right angle triangle formation with another
trailing about at a short distance behind. All the lights seemed
to be oscillating slightly as they moved, unlike satellites,
which move smoothly and swiftly. The fourth trailing light began
to speed up and caught up to pass the other three when it
suddenly veered off to the right (south) and sped off out of
sight. A few seconds later the remaining three formed an almost
perfect triangle and then disappeared (the lead one-first,
followed by the reaming two).

They had constant lights and I do not believe these lights were
satellites since they obviously changed course and the remaining
three fluctuated in speed and lacked the fluent, smooth movement
consistent with a satellite. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

Chile - Yes, We Saw Spacecraft

LA SERENA -- Information continues to arrive regarding the
apparition of mysterious entities in the Coquimbo's Panul Sector
(4th Region). The Diario La Region de Coquimbo reports, "Yolanda
Santibaiz and Edmundo Ramirez both claim that on the same week
of the humanoid sighting in Coquimbo, whose account appears in
yesterday's edition, an unidentified flying object flew over the
the area.

A pair of local residents who live on a property that serves as
a repair shop at the edge of the highway told us that they had
seen strange things, and that they themselves saw some sort of
flying saucer in July. Edmundo Ramirez, another resident of the
Panul sector, claims that such episodes occur repeatedly. It
made no noise, and was elongated, and had no lights.

It arrived from the north, passing slowly over the eucalyptus
trees in the La Romana sector. Then it descended along that
terrain as if heading toward the sea, and then vanished. The
sector [both witnesses] have indicated as the place where the
vehicle disappeared is the same area indicated by the other
witnesses claiming to have seen a small, glowing-red 80 cm. tall
humanoid.

Eduardo Vega, his brother and two other workers of the
Argandoia brick works are the witnesses to this event, which
they have shared with the greatest respect and seriousness,
which they hope will be reciprocated Thanks to Scott Corrales,
Institute of Hispanic Ufology for the Translation (c) 2004.

England - UFO Video at Air Show

Goodwood Revival Festival -- On Saturday, September 4, 2004, the
vintage aircraft display began at mid-day and the second year in
a row a UFO joined the maneuvers of World War II fighter
aircraft. The flying display featuring Spitfires and Mustangs
among other classic planes. []

For the second year in a row Simon Anderson has video taped a
UFO cutting throught the vintage aircraft. Thanks to Jeff Rense
and Simon Anderson See full story at
http://www.rense.com/general57/uufo.htm

Finland - Five Red Shining Ovals

LAHTI -- We went out to the balcony to smoke on August 22, 2004,
at 1:30 AM, when we noticed something funny in the sky. There
were five red objects flying fast from the southeast to
northwest that did not make any noise. The lowest flying object
changed direction while others were flying straight. They passed
very quickly. The weather was clear. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director www.UFOCenter.com

Australia - Six Orange Lights

Melbourne - On August 24, 2004, the witness was having dinner at
work when a work mate called to tell him to look to the south
and try to make out what the objects where in the sky. The
witness states, "I'm an aviation enthusiast and let me tell
you these where NO aircraft since they formed two patterns of a
triangular shape, and were grouped in threes at 10:10 PM.

The lights were orange and seemed stationary for a short while
until they started to move slowly south. We could not make out
the shape of the objects due to the intensity of the lights. I
know that the object was flying below the 3000 foot ceiling
cloud cover. The objects dimmed entering the clouds at: S 35deg
16min 20.5 sec E 149deg 07min 51.6sec

QUIRINDI -- Moira McGhee co-coordinator for the Independent
Network of UFO Researchers (INUFOR) was contacted by several
Quirindi people who had a close encounter on Sunday, August 22,
2004, with a small silvery craft in the sky and a white, sticky
substance falling to earth". "This is reminiscent of a similar
incident in 1998," she said.  On that occasion, on August 10,
1998, Quirindi residents on the outskirts of town reported
watching "about 20 silvery baubles" high in the sky for about an
hour-and-a-half, with a "cobweb-like substance" falling to the
ground as the objects maneuvered around. The   'angel hair"
reports are similar to other unexplained reports from around the
world.  INUFOR can be contacted on 02 4757 3848 after 7 PM.

Country Stars Take Center Stage in ET Controversy

Mike Luckman writes, "Some of the biggest names in country music
have landed smack dab in the middle of a long simmering
controversy about whether UFOs are real, where they come from
and what they mean.

Michael Blumfield, a local country singer who records in
Nashville under the name "M.D., has created a firestorm of
controversy by publishing a photograph of Johnny Cash looking up
at a flying saucer on the cover of his new book, "The Future:
Alien Contact." Country music star Marty Stuart took the
photograph some 25 years ago and claims that someone tossed a
hubcap into the air to get Cash's attention. But Brumfield isn't
buying Stuart's explanation. He said that the daytime disc is
identical to a classic flying saucer photograph taken by Paul
Villa some 20 years earlier and is strong evidence that UFOs are
visiting Earth. He also noted that Cash was buried with a
commemorative guitar pick from the Merle Haggard UFO Music
Festival in Roswell, New Mexico where Stuart performed.

Brumfield, whose wife, Tammy, is Lester Flatts' only
granddaughter, has seen his book banned recently at bookstores
in and around Nashville due to complaints by religious people
who disapprove of the idea that aliens, not God, created
mankind. Brumfield maintains that extraterrestrials from a 10th
planet located beyond Pluto, created man and woman in their own
image in a test-tube using DNA, to mine gold needed to protect
their atmosphere and to build spacecraft. He believes that the
gods and angels referred to in the Bible were actually aliens
employing advanced technology to work "miracles" on Earth and
that ancient artwork found on this planet and on Mars, support
the theory of extraterrestrial intervention with humans
thousands of years ago.

"The Future: Alien Contact" is Brumfield's third book in a
series to tackle the UFO issue. Religious people started to
attack him at his very first book signing in 2001 and have not
let up since. Brumfield's latest problems come on the heels of
the Merle Haggard Music Festival held last month in Roswell, New
Mexico. Haggard, who shared the stage with country legend Willie
Nelson, said that "If that thing (a flying saucer) did come down
in Roswell, it is the biggest thing to happen since Christ."
Brumfield agrees with former NASA astronauts Gordon Cooper and
Edgar Mitchell that the government recovered the bodies of
extraterrestrials from a crash that occurred in July 1947 in the
small desert community. New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson has
called for a reopening of the investigation into the Roswell
case, saying, "People can handle the truth--no matter how
bizarre or mundane." , Thanks to Mike Luckman (212) 995-0384 e-
mail: Nebula2002.nul

Earthling Shape Shifters

Bill Winkler writes, Countless alien abduction episodes have
revealed shape-shifting abilities of those Extraterrestrials
involved with them. These have been accounted for by the
abductees either through hypnosis, conscious recall or from
memory "bleed throughs" over a period of time. Apparently shape
shifting is a common phenomenon quite prevalent among those off-
planet beings.

It is more probable than possible that Earthlings have the same
innate ability to shape shift their bodies. A rather bodagscious
statement! The most common reporting of alien abductions occur
within the privacy of one's bedroom at night while the unwilling
participant, or participants, are fast asleep. The following
scene is redundant throughout the history of modern Ufology.

Two persons are asleep. One remembers, or is aided by hypnosis,
that three or four small humanoids are in the bedroom. Their
height is usually about three to four feet high. They approach
the other sleeping partner, standing by that side of the bed.
The sleeping partner is levitated up a foot or so from the
surface of the bed. Slowly the ETs, together with the human in
tow, move towards the window. Invariably the bedroom window is
closed. Then further levitation occurs in order to accommodate
the height of the closed window. Quite smoothly the group passes
through the windowpane.

The remaining partner, all this time, has been immobilized. This
immobilized state exists while the partner is absent from their
bed. On occasion, not too often, the immobilized partner is
aware, or made aware, of the return of the missing partner. Then
sleep is induced. Forgetfulness is common. The couple awake in
the morning and go about their business.

Not through walls or doors but through a pane of glass is the
Earthling shapeshifted through. Walls contain a variety of
materials such as steel, cement, wood, insulation, nails,
cables, plastic and electrical wires with electricity properties
flowing through them. A pane of glass is composed of one basic
commodity, silica. As always, an old adage, follow the path of
least resistance. In order to attain Molecular Density
Disruption, it is far easier to pass through one commodity, such
as silica, as opposed to going through a wall composed of
numerous products of divergent ingredients. Therefore, logic
dictates it is easier to change the frequency of an Earthling
for it to pass through a windowpane as opposed to a wall. A side
note: Extraterrestrials, just as angels and spiritual guides,
have been seen coming through walls or ceilings. As with all
things in life, it's just a matter of frequency.

Evidence could be gleaned from the crime scene. A crime scene
indeed! An Earthling was kidnapped. In this era of highly
sophisticated and sensitive instruments it would appear logical
that evidence, al biet of a microscopic nature, can be gathered
up and examined. From my personal experience of chairing a UFO
Abductee Support Group for four years in Connecticut, the best
candidates would be those Earthlings who are abducted on a
regular basis. Thus, electronic sweeping up of their window
sill, the floor beneath the window sill, the curtain, drapes
could produce evidence of microscopic "shards" of glass.

Photography of the pane of glass, with appropriate sensitive
cameras, may reveal structural changes occurring in conjunction
with an abduction. X-raying the glass may reveal yet other
abnormalities, such as molecular rearrangement to the glass
itself.

Perhaps an Aura Camera can show a difference in a before-and-
after photograph. Can the aura of the Earthling be imbedded in
the glass itself? Earthlings auras changed constantly. If an
aura image can be captured on a pane of glass, could it reveal
changes? Could it reveal the image of black or gray? Black and
gray, being the colors of depression, low energy and long-term
chronic fear. Were this to be a consistent aura window-pane
"reading," then could it be indicative of ongoing trauma in this
particular Earthling? Could an aura imaging of the abductee
immediately after an abduction perhaps reveal an ET standing
there along side with the usual Spiritual Guides, as seen in
those aura photographs?

Reverting back to the time of the abduction: hypnosis has
revealed extensive and detailed information of the activities
surrounding an abductee's captivity. Perhaps fine tuning the
hypnosis to the time of the Earthling's body actually passing
through the pane of glass may reveal yet further information.

Would biological examination and evaluation of abducted
Earthlings reveal differences in their blood, chemical and urine
samples? Are brain waves different with abductees as opposed to
those not subjected to those emotionally traumatic and
physiological molecular changes? http://www.equinaut.net


VDe Telegraaf, the largest newspaper in the Netherlands,
published on September 4 an article about the renowned dutch
medium Robbert van den Broeke. Robbert, 24, has already taken
thousands of pictures of entities, appearances and figures.
"It's a crime if I don't share this [evidence]. And I have the
feeling this is only the beginning." 12 files full of pictures
from another world. Thousands of negatives were send to the one
hour service; 9 out of 10 he was lucky: "I feel something, an
energy, a pressure round my head and then I take pictures of
them. Almost every day."

Thanks to =C2=A9 2004 Toine Trust, Site Admin UFOPlaza - Home of the
Dutch UFO Community

Site Admin S.O-L.A.A.S. -Editor UFOrmant - the dutch UFO
magazine, site: www.UFOPlaza.nl

mail: ganzEgal.nul, news: nieuws.nul

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www.GeorgeFiler.com









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 8

               Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:35:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:46:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter -


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:27:42 -0400
>Subject: Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:59:44 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter


>My problem with Roswell is that there is no way to prove
anything without additional information (which may never be
available). Too much of this tale is anecdotal and has tended to
evolve through the years as the story became more and more
complex. Wading through the information is becoming more
difficult without becoming frustrated with the inconsistancies,
and many good researchers have left the field entirely after
finding that their time isn't being well spent.

>But, when all is said and done, we still haven't proven what
happened near Corona in July of 1947. There are many theories
and beliefs, expressed by those on all sides of this issue, but
the debate will continue.

Steve,

Very, very well stated. I couldn't have expressed it better
myself.

Nobody has a monopoly on Roswell truth. As extraordinary event
or conventional one wildly exaggerated, the incident's true
origin and nature remain murky. The key theories, both
extraordinary and conventional, have been neither proved nor
disproved, never mind thundering rhetorical assertions to the
contrary.

In the end, ufologists have to decide how most productively to
spend their time and focus their efforts. Barring some startling
new development (in other words, something beyond yet more
unverifiable anecdotes and alleged memories of events decades
ago), most have decided that Roswell has gone as far as it can
go.

I can understand the exasperation so often vented on this List
and elsewhere. I don't agree, though, that exasperation is
justified on the dubious ground that we know everything and
therefore we can move on. I say, let's move on, but not because
we know everything; to the contrary, move on because the final
resolution is to every indication out of our hands and
inaccessible.  I am no Roswell expert, merely an interested
outside observer, but I am certain of this much: we're going to
have to live with uncertainty for some time to come.


Jerry Clark










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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 8

               Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter -

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:35:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:48:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter -


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:27:42 -0400
>Subject: Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:59:44 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Some N.M. Scientists Want Close Encounter


>My problem with Roswell is that there is no way to prove
>anything without additional information (which may never be
>available). Too much of this tale is anecdotal and has tended to
>evolve through the years as the story became more and more
>complex. Wading through the information is becoming more
>difficult without becoming frustrated with the inconsistancies,
>and many good researchers have left the field entirely after
>finding that their time isn't being well spent.

>But, when all is said and done, we still haven't proven what
>happened near Corona in July of 1947. There are many theories
>and beliefs, expressed by those on all sides of this issue, but
>the debate will continue.


Steve,

Very, very well stated. I couldn't have expressed it better
myself.

Nobody has a monopoly on Roswell truth. As extraordinary event
or conventional one wildly exaggerated, the incident's true
origin and nature remain murky. The key theories, both
extraordinary and conventional, have been neither proved nor
disproved, never mind thundering rhetorical assertions to the
contrary.

In the end, ufologists have to decide how most productively to
spend their time and focus their efforts. Barring some startling
new development (in other words, something beyond yet more
unverifiable anecdotes and alleged memories of events decades
ago), most have decided that Roswell has gone as far as it can
go.

I can understand the exasperation so often vented on this List
and elsewhere. I don't agree, though, that exasperation is
justified on the dubious ground that we know everything and
therefore we can move on. I say, let's move on, but not because
we know everything; to the contrary, move on because the final
resolution is to every indication out of our hands and
inaccessible.  I am no Roswell expert, merely an interested
outside observer, but I am certain of this much: we're going to
have to live with uncertainty for some time to come.


Jerry Clark








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 8

              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:10:51 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:50:46 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Allan


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:15:36 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:52:31 +0100
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>>Someone ought to put these items to him, point blank. If he does
>>not accept all 3, there is no point in taking it any further,
>>since you cannot have a Roswell ET crash without the above
>>consequences to follow.
>
>IMO, Gov. Richardson is jumping onto the same bandwagon that the
>late Cong. Steven Schiff was riding when he requested the GSA
>investigation you refer to. But I'm not sure you read all of the
>supporting articles related to that investigation, which clearly
>showed their frustration in trying to research that event and
>obtain information from the Air Force. Since I happen to work at
>the U.S. House I was in contact with Schiff's staff during their
>probe and it was clear that the GSA was very limited in what
>they could obtain. As with everything else in this city,
>politics is the name of the game, and there's no political
>future in chasing ghosts or ufos.
>
>I happen to believe there's probably a large amount of
>information and material related to the event that remains
>undiscovered, or hidden away in secret (as conspiratorialists
>would have us believe), but I'm also not convinced that the
>Governor will have any clout to get it released.It's hard to
>specifically ask for records that you can't identify, and the
>destruction of records related to that time period in Rowell
>stymied the GSA's effort in 1996 which left them with more
>questions than answers. Richardson will hit that same brick
>wall, but who knows for sure until he tries.

True the GAO (not GSA) did admit records from that time period,
and other time periods, had been destroyed. But are we really to
believe that important records pertaining to the discovery of ET
life visiting planet earth (of supreme and lasting interest to
scientists the world over) were simply destroyed?

The obvious conclusion to me is that the disposed of records
were harmless personnel/admin stuff that was of no interest to
anyone.

By all means let the governor try. But when he fails (as he
will), are we going to have yet another hue & cry about the
'great cover up'?

I predict he will quietly drop the whole case.

CDA








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   Sep > Sep 8

               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:15:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:54:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Allan


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 22:03:50 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:38:29 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:14:19 +0100
>>>Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:08:28 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Harney

<snip>

>>>Its chief weakness
>>>seems to be that it supposes that Arnold's estimates of speeds
>>>and distances were highly inaccurate.

>>No, it's chief weakness was that it was scientifically
>>impossible. Pelicans can't outfly a plane on a parallel course.
>>This has nothing to do with Arnold's estimates of speed or
>>distance. Even if Easton's "pelicans" were right outside
>>Arnold's window, they couldn't move _forward_ of Arnold's
>>position and finally disappear in the distance _ahead_ of his
>>plane because, duhhh, pelicans can't outfly a plane.

>Yes, but the accuracy of Arnold's account is disputed. Nobody
>suggested that any birds could fly faster than his plane.

I am baffled.

I have always assumed that Arnold's UFOs were flying
approximately at right angles to Arnold's direction, not
parallel to it.

On what grounds does David Rudiak say they were flying on a
parallel course to Arnold?

See numerous source notes on case, particularly Arnold's own
write-up in the Arnold/Palmer book.


CDA








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   Sep > Sep 8

                A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:24:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:59:19 -0400
Subject: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words


Hello all,

A Picture or Video is Worth a Thousand Words.

As I can see the Mexican Air Force is not going to fly or
present any test from the FLIR video of march 05, 2004.

I was hoping to fly over the Gulf of Mexico this summer and have
the opportunity to film the Cantarell oil field in good weather
conditions and it happened days ago.

I was flying from Mexico City to Cancun over the Gulf of Mexico
on Sept. 03 and I get some nice shots very similar to the FLIR
"lights" of the Mexican Air Force Video from march 05, 2004.

The next day, on Sept. 04, I returned back to Mexico City and
again I took some nice pictures and video.

I hope the images are enough convincing for you as hey are for
me. If you need more information I'll be glad to answer any
questions.

COORDINATES AT THE TIME THE VIDEO WAS RECORDED

LAT N20d 34.8 LONG 093d 27.1

DATA

SEPT-03-2004.

FLIGHT 583 from Mexico City to Cancun.
Capt. Alejandro Franz
Co-pilot: William Orive
Airplane: MD 82 (N8031LF)
Equipped with GPS-FMS
Altitude: 33000 ft
Heading 075d (Average)
Speed: MACH .78, 450kts (Average Ground Speed)

SEPT-04-2004.

FLIGHT 926 from Cancun to Mexico City.
Capt. Alejandro Franz
Co-pilot: William Orive
Airplane: MD 88 (XA-AMS)
Equipped with IRS FMS
Altitude: 31000 ft
Heading 249d (Average)
Speed: MACH .78, 450kts (Average Ground Speed)

CAMERA:
SONY  HANDYCAM
DCR-TRV18- MINI-DV
DIGITAL ZOOM 120X
LENS: CARL-ZEISS-VARIO-SONNAR

VIDEO 01

http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/CANTARELL_SEP_2004/


See latest information and images:

Mexican Air Force FLIR's video lights are not UFOs
they are oil well gas flames!

http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/FLIR_CONCLUSION.html


Regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director.nul








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               Inside the Capitol Bodies Wreckage & Machinery

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:34:34 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 17:01:41 -0400
Subject: Inside the Capitol Bodies Wreckage & Machinery


Source: http://www.dontbotherpressing.com


Inside the Capitol, Bodies -- Wreckage -- Machinery!!!

Dam Acne Syndicated Columnist

Aug 30, 2004, 17:36

SANTA FE =97 Gov. Bill Richardson appears to be headed for more
trouble with his latest request for full disclosure by the
federal government of everything it knows about Andy Roberts.
While allegedly out for a Sunday spin one sunny afternoon,
Roberts crashed his flying saucer and the incident led to claims
by the military that the wreckage was found near Roswell in
1947.

Richardson made his request in the foreword of a book about a
recent archeological dig at the crash site by scientists from
the University of New Mexico. Both the dig and the book were
sponsored by the Porn Channel. Richardson says he wants to get
to the bottom. Your reporter thinks he means Roberts=92 bottom but
we didn=92t dare ask him. But whatever happened, he wants the case
reopened and our best scientific investigation to be conducted.

That sounds suspiciously like what Richardson wants done with
the Nick Pope case. He thinks modern scientific methods should
be able to reveal secrets that historians for more than two
years have not been able to find.

The sheriffs who want to dig up Nick and his teddy bear to
compare their DNA, now have brought Dr. Henry Lee into the case.
Lee, a nationally known spoon bender, has been asked to find
Nick=92s blood on a carpenter's bench he might have been laid on,
since the grave digging project still is in limbo.

I am interviewing other nationally known forensic scientists and
soon will have some possibly surprising information for you
about what they think of Dr. Lee's qualifications and research
methods. He claims a PhD in spoon bending and fork tuning at
Leicester Metropolitan University but it appears he cheated by
only using forks with two prongs. The standard minimum is three.

Possibly, Richardson can get away with asking that the
Roberts/UFO investigation be re-opened without harming his
reputation. The late Rep. Steve Schiff, of Albuquerque, seemed
unharmed by his request for a congressional investigation into
the art of toe-nail clipping. He even got some action out of the
government. The Air Force switched its scissors explanation to
cuticles before closing the case again.

But Schiff had such a button-down reputation that he survived
any image problems. Richardson's quest for Pope=92s bones,
followed by a search for UFOs, however, may cause some chuckles
around the state and nation from those who don't see eye to eye
with our governor. It's not that he's a kook, but he may be just
plain stark staring mad.

The use of science to prove what one wants to find has cast a
shadow, lately, on the scientific community that worries serious
scientists. After all, science is supposed to be used only for
finding good things. Science should not be used to find nasty
things or more importantly, things that scientists don=92t like.
Recently, in Russia, scientist Yuri Labvin announced that a
research team he heads intended to find evidence that the tooth
fairy was involved in the tremendous blast that levelled
hundreds of square miles of Siberian forest, without leaving any
money. Mean bastard.

Labvin said that the intention of the expedition was to find
remnants of an alien spaceship. And whadda ya know? A week
later, they found one. An "extraterrestrial technical device"
inside which was a figure allegedly resembling Andy Roberts were
recovered and taken to a laboratory for study. As this was some
8,000 miles away from where Roberts supposedly crashed, it casts
doubt on the complicity of laboratories in such pseudoscientific
hoaxes and is becoming a concern.  Roberts however was known to
favour hoaxes but this shirley was going too far.

To his likely detriment, Richardson has also picked up on Los
Alamos National Laboratory director Pete Nanos' characterization
of scientists who don't follow security laws as being
"Ufologists." That's what he called them on Don Imus' morning
talk show recently. It is surprising that Imus didn't call him
on it, since Imus grew up on a ranch and fancies himself. Oh
well. At least he doesn=92t fancy Andy or Nick.

It may not have bothered Imus, but in =93I=92m Off With The Fairies=94
Country, which includes much of New Mexico, those will be
fighting words come next election. Bloody ufologists.

Richardson isn't running this time. Instead he=92s decided to
walk. But that won't keep Republicans from walking against him
if it can help them. UFO Updates candidates from throughout the
state ran against "Dave and Andy" even though they represented
districts a hundred miles away. Back in the '80s, Republican
legislative candidates still were running against Georgina Bruni
even after she had left the office.

With Rimmer and Harney no longer affective on the ufological
scene and Tim Good long gone, ufologists have to find an
unworthy opponent some-where. And it might as well be old Bill.







   UFO UpDates
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 9

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 36

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:33:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 04:18:36 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 36


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 36
September 8, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


FLOATING RED ALIEN SEEN
NEAR COQUIMBO IN CHILE

      "Mysterious creatures were seen by numerous witnesses
in an area near the city of Coquimbo in Chile.  According
to the reports, they resemble small humans that float
through the air without making a sound."
      "Francisco Vega, a laborer at the El Pelambre mine,
was in the company of his brother, Eduardo, and two other
employees of the Argandota Ceramics Co., in the Planicie
de Panul sector, a location adjacent to La Herradura de
Coquimbo."
      "At a distance of some 20 meters (66 feet), Francisco
witnessed what appeared to be a small 'monkey' that was
approaching them, walking upon the plain.  Upon looking at
it more clearly, he saw that it was a humanlike creature
dark red in color."
      "'It had a very bulky head, was no taller than 80
centimeters (2.8 feet), and looked like a gas bag because
it was so fat.  My initial impression was that it
resembled a rugby player,' said the witness, according to
the Chilean press."
      "'Only a few seconds went by, and I shouted very loud
to my son, my brother and the workers'," so that "'they
should realize what I was looking at,' he added."
      "The surprise experienced by the four men was even
more complex when they watched the strange being hurtle
over the plain, remaining in the air for several minutes."
      "Later, they said, the creature began heading towards
the men at slow speed, finally vanishing.  The event
occurred in July of this year (2004)."
      Eduardo Vega reported, "'It was around 10 a.m. when
my brother Francisco, who was around 20 meters (66 feet)
away from the three of us, shouted desperately, 'Come!
Come!'  I got scared, and we ran over.  He pointed toward
the spot, and that's when we saw the humanoid figure.  It
stood 80 centimeters tall.  Shiny, red.  Its head was
large, but we couldn't make out any eyes or mouth.  The
figure looked like a small person, a child perhaps wearing
a diver's suit, with its arms close to the torso and its
legs together.'"
      The alien was "'some 20 meters from us and 20 meters
off the ground.  My brother Francisco says he was walking
at first and then he took off some 20 meters into the air.
Twelve to fifteen minutes went by.  Out of this time, the
figure was motionless for seven minutes.  It didn't move
at all.'"
      "'The gentlemen who were with us--they noticed that
some sort of sparks or lights were coming out of the head
of the image or person.  I would say that they were like
the sparks that come out of certain exhaust pipes when
they are hot.'"
      "Yolanda Santibanez and Edmundo Ramirez both claim,
and startled some, by saying that during the same week of
the humanoid sighting in Coquimbo, there was an
unidentified flying object over the area."
      "A pair of local residents who live on a property
serving as a repair shop at the edge of the highway told
us that they indeed have seen strange things and that they
themselves saw some sort of flying saucer."
      "Yolanda Santibanez recalls that it was during the
month of July (2004) in the late afternoon that she and
the other witnesses observed a strange phenomenon in the
skies, as she describes it."
      "'Yes, it was July,'" Yolanda said, "'I couldn't tell
you the exact date, but we saw an object in the sky over
La Romana.  It had an elongated shape, black or grey in
color, and it slowed and expanded.  It seemed to float
while it assumed a square shape and, when it remained like
this, it seemed to have things like wheels and such.  At
no time did we feel afraid, because we were accompanied.'"
      "Edmundo Ramirez, another one of the Panul residents,
claims that such episodes occur regularly and offered some
details about them."
      "'The object that was seen in July appeared suddenly.
It made no noise, such as engine noise, for example.  It
was elongated but kept getting longer and had no lights.
The time was about 5 or 6 p.m.  Some other people who were
home also saw it.  It arrived as if from the north,
passing slowly over the eucalyptus trees in the La Romana
sector.  Then it descended along the terrain, as if
heading towards the sea, and then vanished.  Luckily, it
didn't approach us, and the dogs didn't bark, either.'"
      Coquimbo is a seaport city located 320 kilometers
(200 miles) north-northwest of Santiago de Chile, the
national capital.  (See the Chilean newspaper La Region de
Coquimbo for September 1, 2004, "Eyewitness describes
encounter with strange creature;" and for September 2,
2004, "Yes, we saw a spacecraft at Panul."  Muchas gracias
a Scott Corrales y Liliana Nunez para estos articulos de
diario.)


UFO ACTIVITY INCREASES
IN COLOMBIA AND PERU

      On Sunday, August 15, 2004, "a spectacular UFO flew
over the coastal city of Cartagena" in northern Colombia.
"The object was brilliant and silvery, oblong and had no
wings.  It was seen by hundreds in the perfectly clear
blue sky."
      The UFO was photographed.  Readers can view it at the
Web site of the Colombian research group, Contacto OVNI.
Just go to this URL: http://www.epagos.com/contacto-ovni.
      Elsewhere in South America, a UFO flap has broken out
in Peru's department (state) of Huari.
      "Luminous UFOs were seen during July and August
(2004) over four communities in Huari," reported Peruvian
ufologist Monica Gaetano de Silva.  "At each sighting,
there were several strange lights in the sky.  The objects
appeared over Uco, Paucas, Anra and Rapayan.  One large
luminous disc aimed a bright spotlight at the ground and
played it over the fields.  The farmers celebrated the
arrival of the UFOs because they consider them a sign of
good fortune."
      "The police have questioned the eyewitnesses and say
they will determine the source of the mysterious lights.
But, so far, there have been no arrests."  (Muchas gracias
a William Chavez de Contacto OVNI y Monica Gaetano de
Silva para estas noticias.)
(Editor's Note: Rapayan is the site of a "skyscraper," a
five-story stone building reared by an unknown pre-
Columbian civilization.  It was first explored by Peruvian
archaeologist Dr. Hernan Amat Olazabal in the late 1970s.)


STUDENT VIDEOTAPES UFO
IN JACKSON, MISSOURI

      "At about 7:30 p.m. on (Wednesday) August 11 (2004),
Zach Stanfield was taking his dog outside of his Jackson,
Missouri (population 11,947) when he spotted something
strange in the clouds of the evening sky.  He quickly ran
inside to grab his binoculars, which revealed a more
detailed view of...well, he didn't know what.  He went
back into his house for his hand-held DVC video camera and
filmed away."
      "'I really don't know what it is,' says Zach, while
talking on the phone to his cousin, Audrey Stanfield,
while taping."
      "'It's black.'  Pause. 'Round, it's round,' he says."
      "'What is it?' he asks."
      "What the video captured was about five minutes of a
35-minute episode in which a dark shape hovers in a tight
holding pattern of small circles above Stanfield's yard.
Suddenly, the subject makes its way east across the
evening sky before disappearing into the dark clouds of
oncoming night."
      "On the tape, the object makes its revolutions, the
shadowy shape shifting from a round dot to a rounded bar
resembling a penny as it rolls on its edge in circles on a
surface.  But the coin-shaped object was rolling on an
invisible plane in the air a good distance above Zach
Stanfield's house."
      "'Sure it's not a plastic bag or something?' asks
Audrey, now standing beside the cameraman, watching the
object hover."
      "'Why would there be a plastic bag up in the clouds?'
shoots back Zach, 'You wouldn't be able to see it that
high up.'"
      "'What else could it be?' Audrey asks."
      "Larry Davis isn't sure, either.  Davis has spent the
last 12 years looking at objects in the sky as Cape
Girardeau Regional Airport's chief air traffic controller.
Viewing the videotape, he could only guess."
      "'It could be one of those Mylar discs,' he said,
referring to the popular flying toys that are actually
disc-shaped balloons made of metallic plastic and filled
with helium."
      "The problem is, Davis said, that the video just
shows the shape in the vast sky, so it's impossible to
gauge the distance and size of the object.  Mylar discs
are usually about 50 inches (125 centimeters) in
diameter."
      "Difficult to explain how something as light as a
Mylar disc--which weighs little more than an ounce--could
hover in the same area and avoid being blown away.
However, Davis said it is possible that the metallic
plastic could conduct enough heat from the sun's rays to
create convection heating that would produce the effect.
Davis also said that thunderstorms can create an updraft
that could catch such an object and keep it in one area."
      "But, for all the possibilities, he isn't sure of
anything."
      "Jim Dufek and Fred Jones of Southeastern Missouri
State University's communications department aren't sure
what the disc was, either, but they are sure that the tape
is legitimate."
      "'Whatever it is, it's real,' Jones said, watching
the tape in the university's video room."
      "'There's nothing deposited on it,' Dufek said, 'I
don't see any pixel breakup around the object.  There's no
superimposing.'"
      "All Zach knows for sure is that he, Audrey, his
neighbor Judy Hoffman and Hoffman's mother-in-law, Carmen
Hoffman, saw an unidentified flying object in the sky over
Jackson."
      "'Do you think it's a saucer?' Audrey asks on the
tape as the sky darkens.  'Like a flying saucer?'"
      "'If it's that high up, it's got to be big close up,'
Zach replies."
      "'It's perfectly round,' Audrey says, 'Uh, Zach,
that's weird.'"  (See the Southeast Missourian for August
31, 2004, "High school student's video--UFO over Jackson?"
Many thanks to Jim Hickman, executive director of Skywatch
International, for this newspaper article.)


TRIO SPOTS A UFO IN
LANCASTER, OHIO

      On Saturday, August 28, 2004, three witnesses, "a 34-
year-old man, his 36-year-old friend and his 17-year-old
son," spotted a UFO over Lancaster, Ohio (population
35,335).
      The trio "spotted the object before a thunderstorm
hit the area...an unusual object in the skies over
Lancaster, Ohio."
      The 34-year-old male witness reported, "This may
sound nuts, but right before the storm here at around 7:30
p.m., I saw something right over the city of Lancaster, no
lights at all.  It looked like a V but did not move up or
down, but it did drift from northeast to southeast,
against the wind, before coming to a stop, seeming to stay
in place.  It was a very dark shape."
      "At first I thought it was a parachute, but who in
their right mind would jump with a thunderstorm in their
face?  The object made no sound at all, and I watched it
for seven to eight minutes."
      Ohio ufologist Kenny Young reported, "The 34-year-old
witness worked as an electrical contractor for ten years,
and also added that the object 'looked at times like it
would invert, looking like a rectangle during the
rotation, and then looked like an upside-down V.'"
      In an email interview with Kenny Young, the witness
"said that he was standing on West Fifth Avenue and
looking east, directly over Lancaster, when watching the
unusual object.  He lost sight of it when the clouds
'overtook' it and openly inquired, if the object was a
balloon, how come it did not move with the wind?"
      "The claimant also felt that if the object had been
somehow tethered, it would have been situated over the
Anchor Hocking Glass factory on about 1,000 feet (300
meters) of rope."
      "At 10 p.m., the witness contacted the Lancaster City
Police and the Fairfield County Sheriff's Office.  Neither
group could supply additional information and had received
no reports."
      Lancaster is on Ohio Route 22, located 30 miles (48
kilometers) southeast of Columbus.  (Many thanks to Kenny
Young for this report.)


CROWD WITNESSES A UFO
OVER EUGENE, OREGON

      On Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 11 p.m., eyewitness
Aye reported, "My friend called me and said the news said
there was a UFO over Eugene (population 137,893).  KEZI-TV
showed it with a zoom-in from the camera on the 11 p.m.
news.  He (the newscaster) said it had been up there for a
couple of hours, and that the news room had been getting
calls on it since 9 p.m."
      Aye and another friend hurried "to where it was
reported.  There were a few people in the parking lot.
They pointed it out to me."
      The UFO "initially was very dim with light pollution
and large.  We brought a camera and a pair of binoculars."
      "It moved a lot, then hovered, and we were able to
get a better view of it.  We watched it for the next 20 to
30 minutes while more people from town streamed in.  It
was too faint for our camera to pick up, but with the
binoculars there was much clarity."
      "The object would move a lot, then hover in one place
for about five minutes or so, and then move in another
direction and then hover again.  You could tell it was
hovering by its stationary position" with relation to "the
background stars.  When it moved, sometimes it was slow
and sometimes very fast.  Total movement over the 20
minutes encompassed about 90 degrees of the sky."
      "Eventually it moved rapidly down and farther off and
went over the horizon.  This seemed like a controlled
movement and not like it crashed.  If the object (had)
moved normally, it would've been mistaken for an
airplane."
      "With the binoculars, it had various lights in a
triangle shape.  A red one up top, and a green one on the
left and sometimes another green one or a red one on the
right.  The green light would sometimes be very bright and
other times quite dim, perhaps as the light pointed in
other directions.  At one time it started flashing a large
blue light in the middle, for a total of four lights."
      "A family arrived right after it went over the
horizon, and they said they had been watching it in the
next city over (Springfield, Oregon--J.T.), which would
indicate that it was not a local parking lot visual hoax"
or optical illusion.  (Email Form Report)


TWO UFOs SIGHTED NEAR
FALLON, NEVADA

      Eyewitness D.K. reports, "I live on the Paiute-
Shoshone Indian Reservation about four miles (six
kilometers) north of the Naval Air Station in Fallon,
Nevada (population 7,536).  We are approximately 60 miles
(100 kilometers) east of Reno, 400 miles (640 kilometers)
northwest of Las Vegas and 300 miles (480 kilometers)
north of Area 51."
      Last week, D.K. "was outside trying to get a picture
of the jets flying over the house when I saw two UFOs
flying in the opposite direction.  The jets take off to
the north and then turn and fly east.  When they fly over
my house, they are going from west to east.  I heard them
and I ran outside and I just missed them.  I was
contemplating waiting for more when I looked up directly
overhead and saw what looked like two round saucer-like
objects heading west.  I remember thinking that they
actually looked like the logo for Japan Air Lines."
      "I know this sounds crazy, but it looked like a Star
Trek Klingon vessel with a see-through ring of light
around it.  That's why I originally thought they were
disks.  It was actually a white glow around them."
      "I've seen white triangles, black triangles, silver
orbs, glowing orbs of different colors, but I've never
seen anything like these!"
      "One of them was doing loops around the other.  I
called for my wife to come out, and she saw them as they
faded from view."  (Many thanks to Frank Running Elk for
this report.)


UFOs BUZZ MEXICAN
OIL REFINERY

      On Saturday, August 28, 2004, at 10:11 p.m., "an
unidentified flying object and six luminous spheres were
detected flying over the Pemex (Petroleos Mexicanos--S.C.)
facilities in Tapachula," a town in Mexico's state of
Chiapas.
      According to Pemex official Juan Carlos Zuniga
Rodriguez, "the craft, having the shape of a circular
plate the size of a commercial airliner, peformed flight
maneuvers over the Petroleos Mexicanos Storage and
Distribution Terminal at an altitude of about 1,000 meters
(3,300 feet) at abnormal speed with direction changes."
      "A variety of photographs were taken.  Upon
developing them, it was discovered that at least six
luminous spheres were flying over the same area at the
same altitude, although smaller in size than the
(circular) craft."
      "All of the material was presented to (Mexican
ufologist) Jaime Maussan who immediately commenced the
verification of the photos' authenticity by means of
digital devices."
      Maussan "stated that the tests yielded positive
results including a central object made of unidentified
metal and which appeared to be coated with a small amount
of radiation similar to that of the spheres.  In other
words, the authenticity of the photographs was
corroborated."
      "Zuniga Rodriguez said that UFOs have been frequent
in the region around the oil facilities and points out
that" the site is "adjacent to the Izapa archaeological
region, close to where the (Mayan) 'Tree of Life, Creation
of the Universe' stele is located."
      "There are also reports of fly-overs in the vicinity
of Mount Tacana, the inactive volcano which separates
Mexico from Guatemala."  (See the Mexican newspaper El
Universal de Tapachula for August 29, 2004, "Six UFOs
reported over Tapachula."  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales
y Jose Martinez para esto articulo de diario.)
(Editor's Comment:  There might be an underground alien
base at Mount Tacana similar to the one reputed to be
located in the volcano Mount Popocatepetl, which is
located just west of Puebla.)


DUCKS FOUND MUTILATED
IN PONCE, PUERTO RICO

      "During the early morning hours of Saturday, August
28, 2004, the Marin family of barrio Brisas del Caribe
(sector) of Ponce," a large city in southern Puerto Rico,
"were shocked to find the ducks they raised in their
backyard slain by an unknown assailant."
      "The family's youngest son, in charge of feeding the
animals, made the sad discovery."
      "'When asked if any noise had been heard,'"
investigators Jose A. Martinez and Reinaldo Rios "'were
told that neighbors' dogs had been restless, including the
marin family's own dog.  The Marins believe that perhaps
all of the animals were attacked, since they had gone off
to the San Juan (International) Airport at the time and,
upon their return, were faced with their son's sad news
about the animals.'"
      The ducks "presented a number of puncture marks near
the tail, where the genitalia is located.  One of the
ducks was decapitated.  Another had its head and bill
shattered.  A third survived the massacre but was wounded
in one of its thighs; the puncture mark was barely
visible."
      "The most significant find, that it was the night of
the full moon.  This is an important factor in Puerto
Rican mutilation cases."
      The investigators "asked Mr. Bruno Marin if he had
seen strange lights in the area.  He told us that, a few
years ago, lights and saucer-shaped objects were seen over
the area.  Apparently, from what Mr. Marin tells us, this
is a real UFO hot spot," Martinez reported, "We checked
out the animals with our own equipment, and they were
found to be free of any hazardous, radioactive or toxic
substances."  (Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales para esta
historia.)


SIX CROP CIRCLES FOUND
NEAR WAUSAU, WISCONSIN

      "One dairy farmer" in Wausau Township, Wisconsin
"thinks there may be a paranormal explanation to the crop
circles in his barley field."
      "Scott Worden, 37, had two paranormal investigators
inspect six crop circles Saturday," August 28, 2004, "that
were found (Monday) August 23 (2004) by a farmhand."
      "He won't say whether he believes in the paranormal,
but he doesn't dismiss the idea."
      "'Everybody thinks I'm nuts, but I just want to know
what caused it.  I know cows more than I know circles,'
Worden said."
      "He runs the farm with his brother, Tim, and dad,
Darrell."
      "Crop circles, most of which are found to be
explainable hoaxes, can be formed with a rope, a board and
a couple of people."  (See the Country Journal of Hayward,
Wisconsin for Monday, August 30, 2004.)


      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us next time for
more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 9

              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:04:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:37:49 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:10:51 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:15:36 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:52:31 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell


>>I happen to believe there's probably a large amount of
>>information and material related to the event that remains
>>undiscovered, or hidden away in secret (as conspiratorialists
>>would have us believe), but I'm also not convinced that the
>>Governor will have any clout to get it released.It's hard to
>>specifically ask for records that you can't identify, and the
>>destruction of records related to that time period in Rowell
>>stymied the GSA's effort in 1996 which left them with more
>>questions than answers. Richardson will hit that same brick
>>wall, but who knows for sure until he tries.

>True the GAO (not GSA) did admit records from that time period,
>and other time periods, had been destroyed. But are we really to
>believe that important records pertaining to the discovery of ET
>life visiting planet earth (of supreme and lasting interest to
>scientists the world over) were simply destroyed?

>The obvious conclusion to me is that the disposed of records
>were harmless personnel/admin stuff that was of no interest to
>anyone.

I can imagine that just about every American on this List will
be as amused as I am at our British friend's naivete about the
capacity of our government to keep secrets and to manipulate
public opinion.  Still, I am touched that the vision of American
governance we were taught when we were in second grade still
lives - overseas, at least, though it's long vanished from
America's civic faith.

There may be a case to make against Roswell, but this isn't it.
Even if you swallow whole the Air Force's current version of
what really happened, it managed - by its own admission - to
keep a secret for a very long time.

I'm sure Christopher's touching belief in the virtue of official
Washington, with its so often demonstrated desire to be open and
honest, is a sincere one, but I'm afraid that's as much as can
be said for it.For my part, I promise not to regale Listfolk
with confident claims about what the British government is and
is not capable of.


Jerry Clark








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Sep > Sep 9

                        Did You Take The 'UFO Quiz'?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:12:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:39:36 -0400
Subject: Did You Take The 'UFO Quiz'?


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5897539/

The MSNBC story about the NIDS research has a cool 'UFO Quiz'
near the bottom of the story. It's an interactive quiz to test
one's knowledge of UFOlogy. I got all but one question correct.
It was a question about the 'Heaven's Gate' group. I'm glad I
missed that one.


Best,

Greg








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                           Re: Cattle Mutes - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:30:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:42:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes - King


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:15:09 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes

><snip>

>Suppose I ought to explain more fully.

>ET may have been given permission to do anything so long as it
>is in Mankind's best interest. If it is so then I can not see a
>conspiracy just a permission. A conspiracy would involve more
>than that surely.

>For example; ET may have said they would like to help Humans and
>Earth. Point of contact Military may have said "Yes please do if
>you wish."

>I am not saying this is true but it could be although I know you
>may point to data which is contrary.

Hi Colin,

Hypothetically...

I accept your theory as the truth, and our government had
contact with ET intelligence, and made an agreement with said
intelligence, and did not reveal this information, and held
those involved to confidentiality under penalty of death, and
allowed this ET intelligence to do things (good, bad...) to its
citizens.

You have not only described a conspiracy of the highest order,
you have made quite an adequate case for treason and gross
violation of the Constitution, ethics, morals, and the trust a
people must have for its government.

Our country was founded...partially...as a result of taxation
without representation.

If black budget programs exist which provide for ET "projects"
on American citizens without their express knowledge and
acquiescence, I think another revolution might be indicated.
Surely this would rank above tea on the taxation without
representation scale.

This is why... since I accept your comments as the truth...I
must accept that they will never be proven. Those that try to
reveal it will be silenced either by force or by ridicule. Those
that sue for access to documentation will be hamstrung by
compartmentalized obfuscation. An occasional tantalizing tidbit
will be unearthed to steer the curious away from the truth, and
no one would know of it is real or manufactured. No secret would
be as strenuously and viciously defended. No whistleblower's
account would be as quickly and creatively explained away. Even
Presidents who ask too many questions would be silenced. Keeping
this secret would be much more important than any one
individual.

Not hypothetically...

Based on past and current events, your theory seems plausible,
yet it requires that I resign myself to its never being proven.

An insoluble paradox... unless we go the revolution route, and
even that holds no guarantees.

Regards,

Kyle








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             Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:13:46 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:47:49 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:24:21 -0700
>Subject: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words


>Hello all,

>A Picture or Video is Worth a Thousand Words.

>As I can see the Mexican Air Force is not going to fly or
>present any test from the FLIR video of march 05, 2004.

<snip>


>I was flying from Mexico City to Cancun over the Gulf of Mexico
>on Sept. 03 and I get some nice shots very similar to the FLIR
>"lights" of the Mexican Air Force Video from march 05, 2004.

>The next day, on Sept. 04, I returned back to Mexico City and
>again I took some nice pictures and video.

>I hope the images are enough convincing for you as hey are for
>me. If you need more information I'll be glad to answer any
>questions.

<snip>

>VIDEO 01

>http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/CANTARELL_SEP_2004/


>See latest information and images:

>Mexican Air Force FLIR's video lights are not UFOs
>they are oil well gas flames!

>http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/FLIR_CONCLUSION.html


>Regards,

>Capt. Alejandro Franz
>director.nul

Wow! Just when I thought this was going to be a boring week!

Thanks Capt. Franz for going that extra mile on this long too
dragged out story. This is what should have been done as soon as
the story broke or when the Mexican Air Force first encountered
this situation.

Yet, I'll wait 'til the experts roll in and look over your
evidence as there's something missing I can't put my finger on
yet. Might just be I've read something the wrong way.


Best,

Greg








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                               In Plain Sight

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 22:1:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 10:59:40 -0400
Subject: In Plain Sight


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 14:48:07 +0000
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 04:02:41 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 16:04:12 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind



I have noted the discussion between Dick Hall and Brad Sparks
concerning three outstanding cases which Brad cited:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/sep/m07-019.shtml

When I had much more time, I was able to consult the Project
Blue Book microfilms and helped Brad compile a working document
of interesting Project Blue Book cases. This has involved
extensive screening of many of the "explained" case in these
files.

An initial list, now refined by Brad several time, can be viewed
at CUFOS:

http://www.cufos.org

In doing the research for this project the works Loren Gross
were also consulted. In preparing his history series he also
made extensive use of the Project Blue Book files and reviewed
both explained cases and "unknowns."

>From this research a few observations can be made:

1) In some cases, local investigations by the government
activity involved were well done and highly competent. The same
cannot be said the analyses of these cases.

2) A number of Project Blue Book unknowns are neither good cases
nor very interesting. It is possible to easily suggest possible
explanations for some cases on the list. However, summaries of
the 701 unknowns appear on the Internet and in books, and people
believe these cases have special significance.

3) Many AF UFO cases explained as balloons were indeed balloons,
however, there are enough cases in which such an explanation is
doubtful that such cases should be reviewed.

The Project Blue Book microfilms are costly to purchase and it
is difficult to find microfilm equipment to view the cases.
Perhaps these are the reason that very little is heard about
such cases. It might also be the case that since Project Blue
Book is held in low esteem by many researchers, the feeling
might be that these cases, especially "explained" are not worthy
of any attention.

In an effort to increase access to the Project Blue Book files,
we have proposed that the microfilms be scanned into searchable
text which can be placed on the Internet or sold on DVD's. So
far most of the technical problems have been worked out. Such
ambitious projects usually fall by the wayside. However, easy
access would probably stimulate research by more people who
could like Brad, Loren, and Joel come up with bits and piece
hidden here and there, and also see relationships which others
have missed.

Significant UFO information is hidden, then, in plain sight
among the mass of Blue Book case files!


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135








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                    VHS Of Norwood Presentation Available

From: Kenny Young <ufo.nul>
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 05:40:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:23:18 -0400
Subject: VHS Of Norwood Presentation Available


New VHS Video NOW AVAILABLE
UFO REPORT Vol. 4

The latest edition of the video series UFO REPORT is now
available, it is a MUST SEE! The high-quality professionally
produced video, containing 4-segments, is 1-hour in length.

Segment ONE is a 35-minute presentation by Kenny Young from the
June, 2004 Tri-State MUFON Symposium at The Kenton County Public
Library. Young lectures on the legendary 1949 Norwood, Ohio UFO
/ Searchlight Incident, first reported by Leonard Stringfield,
and for the first time presents breaking new information on this
case that is courtesy of a late informant formerly with the
123rd Aircraft Control and Warning Squadron.

Segment TWO is a look at the controversial Centerville, Ohio
incident of March, 2004, containing the dramatic 9-1-1 tapes
along with commentary and analysis. Segment THREE is an
abbreviated rundown of Midwestern US UFO sightings of 1993
narrated by John Stephenson, and segment FOUR presents the
disturbing Morehead, Kentucky "Screaming Woman" incident of
November. This clip was directed by Donnie Blessing and narrated
by Jeff Shire and contains dramatic reenactments of the
occurrence, along with actual 9-1-1 emergency tapes provided by
the Morehead, Kentucky police.

The video, available in VHS tape format, is available for $20.00
(covers duplication and mailing costs) by
check or money order to:


Kenny Young
1680 Emerald Glade Lane
Cincinnati
OH 45255








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                 Re: Did You Take The 'UFO Quiz'? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 08:59:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:26:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Did You Take The 'UFO Quiz'? - Lehmberg


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:12:37 EDT
>Subject: Did You Take The 'UFO Quiz'?

>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5897539/

>The MSNBC story about the NIDS research has a cool 'UFO Quiz'
>near the bottom of the story. It's an interactive quiz to test
>one's knowledge of UFOlogy. I got all but one question correct.
>It was a question about the 'Heaven's Gate' group. I'm glad I
>missed that one.

I was oddly pleased that I got a quick and easy hundred; what
was interesting, though, was the mainstream accreditation of the
Thutmose III days long sighting of foul smelling craft in his
sky as real history.

alienview.nul
www.AlienView.net









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                 CCCRN News: Latest On Matsqui, BC Formation

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:08:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:11:43 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Latest On Matsqui, BC Formation


CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

September 9, 2004

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


UPDATE - MATSQUI, BRITISH COLUMBIA CORN FORMATION

A preliminary field report, survey diagram, ground photos and
scan images of the "expulsion cavities" and "sliced nodes"
deformities from the first Matsqui cattle corn formation are
posted on the web site.

Many such pronounced anomalies found in this formation, similar
again to those in the nearby Abbotsford and Agassiz formations
from last year. Whether any of these can be attributed to an
aftereffect of the corn being mechanically flattened (by people)
is something that needs to be examined much more closely; the
CCCRN British Columbia team has done it's own experiment of
manually flattening a small area of corn plants in the same
field, a long ways from the formation itself, to be studied over
the next few weeks for any similar changes.

The formation was also surveyed to be 53 metres (174 feet) long,
with alternating lay patterns within the two crescents.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an e-mail with either
Subscribe CCCRN News or Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the subject
line to: cccrnnews.nul

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, media and scientists

c. CCCRN, 2004








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             Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:51:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:29:13 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:24:21 -0700
>Subject: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words


>Hello all,

>A Picture or Video is Worth a Thousand Words.

>As I can see the Mexican Air Force is not going to fly or
>present any test from the FLIR video of march 05, 2004.

>I was hoping to fly over the Gulf of Mexico this summer and have
>the opportunity to film the Cantarell oil field in good weather
>conditions and it happened days ago.

>I was flying from Mexico City to Cancun over the Gulf of Mexico
>on Sept. 03 and I get some nice shots very similar to the FLIR
>"lights" of the Mexican Air Force Video from march 05, 2004.

>The next day, on Sept. 04, I returned back to Mexico City and
>again I took some nice pictures and video.

>I hope the images are enough convincing for you as hey are for
>me. If you need more information I'll be glad to answer any
>questions.

<snip>

Did you actually get a visual sighting of the oil flares?

If so, can you guess why the crew didn't?.


Terry








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                     Re: Filers Files #37 - 2004 - Smith

From: Jim Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:30:05 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:32:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Filers Files #37 - 2004 - Smith


>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:07:09 -0400
>Subject: Filers Files #37 - 2004

>Filers Files #37 - 2004, Skywatch Investigations
>George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern
>Vice President of Skywatch International
>September 1, 2004

<snip>

>Saturn - Cassini Satellite Sees Lights

>R. David Anderson writes, I have been comparing Saturn Cassini
>Images # 00007211 and Cassini Image # 00007442 that JPL received
>on July 22, 2004. This bright object has moved thousands of
>miles in a short time. There are many other interesting images
>sent back to JPL from Cassini near Saturn. You can change the
>image number(s) yourself... in order to see other images of this
>object above and near Saturn.

>"Of course NASA will come up with another explanation for these
>pictures like dust specks, cosmic rays, flaw in optics, and the
>like. They may have a more difficult time explaining this one
>because the object will be in one frame and then not even be in
>the next frame, and moves radically in the next frame all the
>way to the bottom". A large fast moving lighted object in space
>would appear to have its own propulsion system. See the
>following web site for numerous JPL images showing movement.

>http://www.thecomingoftan.com/illuminated~object/illuminated~object.html

Even the meagerest investigation shows that this object is a Saturn
moon.

Look at the image database at:

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/raw/index.cfm

to look at each moon that was targetted.

Look under "IAPETUS" and you will find the following image among
many:

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/raw/casJPGBrowseS02/N00007717.jpg

It is practically identical to the "alien spacecraft" images Mr.
Filer and Mr. Anderson purport.

But if you want alien looking things try:

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/raw/casJPGBrowseS02/N00006614.jpg

which is the moon MIMAS

or:

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/raw/casJPGBrowseS01/N00004641.jpg

for the moon PHOEBE.

These are truly weird, but perfectly natural.








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               HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 09-09-04

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:29:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:37:30 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 09-09-04


HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings

Newsletter Release: September 9, 2004

New York Thruway Northbound Football Field Sized Boomerang (UFO)

Date: 1975
Time: Approx: 8:30 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 20+
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Boomerang.

Full Description of event/sighting: I was a truck driver on a
trip from NYC to Albany. The fastest way was to take the thruway
upstate. As I was driving I noticed that I really couldn't get
much on the CB and the AM radio was more static than anything
else.

Sometime around 8:30 or so I started to notice that there were
occasional cars pulled off to the side of the road and even some
in the median.

As I pulled under an overpass I saw this thing floating over the
road about 100 feet above the roadbed. I slammed on the brakes
and almost jackknifed right there!

It was approximately the size of a high school football field,
but not quite as wide. It had lights on each end and in the
middle with blue square lights all across the back end of the
wings.

I managed to get out of the cab of the truck and was standing in
front of my truck looking up at it when a NY State Trooper
pulled up and got out of his cruiser. He and I stood there for
maybe two or three minutes just looking up. We noticed that
there was absolutely no sound at all and that it didn't
fluctuate or "flutter" and that it just floated in the air. We
saw structure, that is we saw the body of the vehicle. No rivets
or seams, just the silver/grey color of the body. The trooper
called out to me and asked if I was seeing the same thing he was
and I assured him that I was indeed seeing the same thing.

Then suddenly it moved over the Hudson River, made a slight turn
kind of facing up, and then the next second - literally one
second - it was gone.

That's it. Total time was about 5 minutes, no more.

The CB radio came back and so did the AM radio. From there all
the way up to Albany I tried to make people believe that I saw
what I saw. No one believed me then and I don't think anyone
believes me now. Still, I saw it. I'll never forget it. From
time to time I have a dream that I'm seeing it again. But only
in a dream.

Additional Information:

Q. Can you please describe the weather conditions at the time of
the sighting. Was it Overcast? Raining? A clear night? Full
moon?

A. "From what I can remember, it was fairly clear. I don't
remember the moon at all, but I think that it was in the sky."

Q. In what part of the sky was the UFO located? North, South,
East, West? On the horizon or straight overhead or somewhere in
between?

A. "I was headed north and it was just above me. The trooper
and I stood right underneath the thing."

Q. Can you please describe the area in which you made the
sighting. Is it near an airport? An Air Force Base? A military
or research installation of any kind?

A. "There weren't any airports around. I don't think I saw any
air traffic at all before I saw it."

Q. The lights that were located on the ends, could you tell me
what color these were please ?

A. "The lights on the ends were blueish/white and were steady in
brightness. They were kind of like the new halogen lights on
some of the newer cars."

Q. Also what color was the light that was in the middle of the
craft ?

A. "Almost the same color as the ones on the end, but brighter."

Q. Seeing the craft so was so low to the ground, did you feel
anything unusual from it. Dizziness or a feeling of being light
headed ? Or anything else that you found out of the norm ?

A. "This going to sound a little weird, but we (the trooper and
I) both felt light on our feet."

At the time of the sighting, or just afterwards, did you happen
to notice any aircraft showing up in the skies ? if so did they
follow the same flight path that the object took ?

A. "I only saw one airplane about 5 or 10 minutes later. It was
a small, single-engine Cessna or Piper. I don't think it sat
more than 4 people, it was that small."

Q. Was there any other kind of light source coming from the
craft ?

A. "No, I didn't see any portholes or windows on it."

Thank you very much to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Moscow, Russia Three Triangles Hovering Over Lake

This UFO sighting happened about a few years ago. My mother and
uncle went fishing somewhere over 50 miles from Moscow, Russia.
I was born there, and now we live in California. It happened by
midnight, on the 2nd day they were staying by a huge lake. My
uncle went in the tent to get something, and my mom decided to
take a walk along the lake, which was about 20 feet away from
the tent, when she saw some strange triangles hovering in the
air above the lake. They emitted these strange bright lights,
and moved in various directions above the lake. There was more
than 3 triangles. My mom stood there for a few minutes, stunned,
then ran back to the tent and called my uncle. By the time they
got to the spot my mom was standing at, the UFOs were gone.

Another UFO sighting happened in 2003, when my grandparents went
to France due to a business deal. They drove in their car all
the way there. On the way back, once they entered the freeway,
my grandmother noticed a huge strange object, similar to the
ones my mom saw at the lake. It was 10 times larger than a
Boeing 777 aircraft! It hovered in midair for about 7 minutes,
emitting different lights like red and green. It disappeared as
it had appeared.

Thank you very much to the witness for relating the sighting
reports.

-----------------------

Swan Lake, B.C. Ball Of Orange Light

Date: 2003
Time: 11:00 p.m.

About a year before, I observed a ball of orange light
travelling under rain clouds, maybe only two hundred feet at a
very rapid rate, south down the valley over Swan Lake, just
North of Vernon, BC. It traveled over Vernon, then angled to the
right, out of sight. It was around 11:00 p.m.

My rational explanation at the time was that it was the jet
nozzle of a smallish jet aircraft, travelling without running
lights - for what ever reason. There seemed to be a small orange
trail from the ball, suggesting a jet thrust/burn. I didn't
associate it with anything exra-terrestrial.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------------------

Kaufman, Texas Dark Object Suddenly Changes Directions

Date: January 10, 2004
Time: Daylight sighting

Hi Brian

I was going through some of my old tapes, Jan 2004, and I found
a clip of a UFO I remember well. I was taping the sky at the
time and I noticed something dark in color moving across the sky
going to the west. I thought it was a plane (because of the
speed it was going) and I got on it just to see for sure. I got
about three or four seconds of it and before I could zoom in on
it, I caught my toe on something and nearly fell. After I
recovered, it was gone. I know it wasn't a bird because it was
the tenth of January and I don't think a bird could do what this
did. It was going on a straight path for a while, then did a
complete reverse turn and zipped back to where I saw it first,
and continued back on it's original path. I didn't know if you
would be interested in something that far back or not, since you
really can't tell what it is, only what it does.

Thank you to the witness for the report, footage and photos.

Video clip Dark object Traveling One Way, Then Dramatically
Changes Direction 1.18mbs:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1805

----------------------

Edmonton, Alberta Corporate Jet Pilot Sighting

Date: May 10, 2004
Time: Between 12:18 -12:28 a.m.

"I am a highly experienced Corporate jet pilot operating out of
the West Coast of British Columbia. I was a crew member on our
Company aircraft during the early morning hours of Sunday, May
10, 2004 on a flight from Syracuse, New York to Calgary,
Alberta. No passengers were on board, only the 2 pilot crew.
 As we approached Empress, Alberta and preparing for descent, we
noticed a very bright light in the Northwest sky at about 12
degrees above the horizon. As the bright light (same intensity
as Venus or Jupiter) travelled Southeast bound and came closer
it "seemed" to transform into approximately 9 objects.

The other pilot maintains that there was more like l2 objects.
 For the record, our cruising altitude at this time was 39000.'
 The salient feature was that the 3 trailing objects were
approximately 1/3 of the brightness of the forward numbers
which, as stated, were at least as bright as the planet Venus.
The objects appeared to be flying in an organized formation and
at a very considerable speed. I estimate roughly 700 -1000
Nautical miles per hour and possibly very much faster. Both
pilots agree the duration of the event was about 15 seconds.
 There was no apparent trajectory and the lights appeared to
maintain a perfectly level altitude throughout the duration.

We were in perfectly clear conditions over the entire prairie
region and at the time of the occurrence. I have seen hundreds
of meteors during flight at night and have the absolute
conviction this was NOT a meteor, nor a meteor breaking up.
 This because of a total lack of trajectory. At the time I
believed the objects were flying at approximately 10,000' and at
a distance of perhaps 5-15 Nautical miles at their closest
point. As many would understand, distances and altitudes at
night can be extremely hard to judge with certainty but the
preceding estimate is the best I can suggest. The time of this
event was not written down. Working backwards from the known
landing time at Calgary I maintain the approximate time of the
event was 12:23 a.m, Sunday, May 10/04 with a fudge factor of
plus or minus 5 minutes. THEREFORE, best estimate is the
sighting occurred between 12:18 -12:28 a.m. This occurrence was
definitely spectacular enough that I would have believed
numerous aircraft would have asked Edmonton Centre what this
was. Being early Sunday morning, air traffic would certainly
have been the lightest of the week. Surprisingly, NO calls
emanated from any aircraft. And we decided we should clam up as
well. The following is noteworthy: I have carefully worked the
internet (hbccufo) to try and discern if other reports came in
that night over southern Alberta. One will discover not less
than 6 reports, some spectacular, that occurred at, or near
Edmonton during our time frame. I am hard pressed to think
other than that most, or all, of those described events are
linked to the phenomenon we observed."

HBCC UFO Note: I spent some time talking to the witness on the
telephone and the person notes that: (Pilots words: (If one
considers there is linkage to these events (ours to one or more
of the other 3), and considering the others apparently involve
low altitude movements (close to treetops) it all becomes very
very intriguing). Now wonder what really did take place that
early morning now knowing that these lights were making low
altitude movements "close to treetops" ! A very credible witness
with some other amazing reports he has told me.

I would like to thank the witness for the report and taking the
time with me on the telephone.

------------------------

Spallumcheem Valley B.C. Small Orb

Date: August 15, 2004
Time: 5:30 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Small orb

Full Description of event/sighting: I've seen two sets of
pictures on Rense, now, just like the one I saw.

Watching a chemtrail being laid down, heading SW, I noticed a
bright spot, or dot, that was tracking the plane perfectly, just
'below' the trail. It was not reflected sunlight, it seemed to
be emitting light, somehow. Bright point of light at great
distance.

It tracked the plane for several minutes before disappearing
behind a natural cloud. When the plane emerged, there was no
object following it.

Most notable was the perfect tracking movement of the object.

Additional Information:

The airplane was laying a chemtrail/contrail and the object was
approx: two fingers away from the aircraft. The airplane was
heading SSW, the object didn't alter its' trajectory or distance
from it, very steady and exact tracking. That was what got my
attention in the first place. The plane flew behind a wispy
cloud, but was obscured, then the object. Only the plane emerged
from behind the cloud.

Thank you very much to the witness for the report.

---------------------------

Kaufman, Texas Another Large Orb Close To Jet Airliner

Date: August 31, 2004
Time:  Approx: 11:00 a.m.

Hi Brian

I was taping this jet with trail today when I noticed this orb
coming toward the jet. It was moving very fast so I couldn't
wait to download it to see what it did. It was about 11:00 a.m.
this morning (08-31-04) and started out with a blue sky when I
got this. As the day went on, the"guys in the skies" dumped
heavy on us. Anyways, the orb appears to get into the jet trail
and spends quite a bit of time there before it leaves. I made a
frame-by-frame slideshow from start to finish for you. This was
amazing to me because others I've seen usually go over, under,
or through in a straight line. You can see the orb between the
trails in several frames before it leaves.It appears to either
go over or through into the trails,not under,best as I can
see.If it is really in those trails as it appears to be, that
orb has to be at least 40 or 50 feet across because those trails
are huge. If you decide to use this, let me know and I'll send
you the clip also. I've got a couple more things of interest
I'll send you too..Later my friend.

P.S.The jet was heading south and the orb was coming from the
east heading toward the west.

Video clip Large Orb Close To Jet Airliner 696kbs
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1802

Thank you to the witness for the report, footage and photos.

-------------------------------

Grande Prairie, Alberta Star Like And Possible Visitaion

HBCC UFO Note: Warning !!! Parts of this report some may find
disturbing as it has certainly bothered me to know a young child
is going through something ? I will be making some enquiries to
see what I might be able to find out and to pass along the
information to the parent. Permission was granted to post this
story in hopes others who are experiencing this type of thing
will come forward.

Date: September 5, 2004
Time: 11:30 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Star like.

Full Description of event/sighting: I have written to you before
regarding a similar sighting out at my in-laws farm. We spotted
two star like objects moving at an incredible speed. This time I
write to you because I saw the same thing while sitting outside
my Grande Prairie home.

My husband and I were sitting out on our roof gazing up at the
sky because it was such a clear night... all the stars were
shining so brightly. It was amazing. Then I spotted a star
coming from the east and moving west. It traveled across the sky
and entered a cloud formation... the only one we could see...
.and then in seconds came out where it had entered and traveled
east again. The whole event lasted about 5 or 6 min. My husband
had heard my story of the sightings in Doe river, outside Dawson
Creek... .but when he finally saw what I had tried describing...
.he was in awe... he verbally went over the possibilities... a
plane? no... travels much to fast and there were no lights or
sounds... a satellite?... ..no... satellites do not maneuver
that fast from one direction to the other... .We could only
explain it as being a UFO.

As for the object I told you about... we could see no tail...
flashing lights... or any other strange things. The cloud it
went into appeared to be a normal cloud... but it was the only
one in the sky and it was large. There was no light emitted from
the cloud at any time. There were no other aircraft in the area
either.

A couple of nights later, we had some friends visiting us from
Dawson Creek. We were telling them about our experience and they
suddenly became very excited... they had been camping just
outside Dawson Creek when they too had seen a similar event at
around the same time.

Now, I really do believe we have seen alien spacecraft...
.especially since my daughter has started talking about people
visiting her in her room.She is turning 4 in October. She is
very perceptive and has always intrigued me with her abilities
to "know" things that she shouldn't... and see things she
shouldn't. I have always thought she had some paranormal
ability. She is very coy with it also... she portrays herself as
not having a special gift... but she is very open with me about
it. Going back to the visitors in her room... I have begun to
wonder if she is in fact being visited by aliens. My husband and
I rarely talk about aliens in front of her... but she has
explained a particular occurrence to me in detail that made my
hair stand on end.

About 1 year ago, I had a vivid dream. In my dream, I had gotten
up and went to the kitchen to get a glass of water. I looked out
the window and saw a saucer like object hovering over my
neighbors house. I ran for my kids rooms to get them with the
intention of hiding because I felt we were in danger. I do not
remember much of the rest of the dream other then trying to find
a place to hide and settling on the storage room in my
basement... then I woke up and it was 10:00 a.m.,I never
mentioned my dream. About a week later, my daughter came to me
and looked deep into my eyes... and said" Mom, you didn't hide
in the right place and they found you... .I was under the table
and they didn't see me." She walked away leaving me shocked and
scared. I followed her and asked her questions about what she
was talking about and she wouldn't tell me anything else. And
she still hasn't told me more. How did she know this? Could it
be it really happened? or is she again exhibiting ESP or has so.

(Removed) picked up on my subconscious? Anyways... I hope that
this information helps in your quest for answers... because I
too am beginning to need answers. Good luck to you Brian.

Additional Information:

Now getting to my daughter...

I have noticed some things over the past few years in regards to
"strange marks". She often has unexplained bruising. They often
appear on her arms and legs in oblong shapes... such as
fingers... our finger print shapes.

Also... very recently... she woke up with sore genitals. I gave
her a bath and she said the water made it hurt more. I asked her
if I could look and see... so I would know if she needed to see
a doctor, or just had a rash or something. When I looked, she
had a small piece of the inside of her vaginal lip missing...
very close to the vaginal opening. At first I thought someone
had "touched" her and I asked a series of questions. She was
very open and seemed genuine when she said no one had abused
her. I believe her.

I shrugged it off as maybe she had scratched herself in her
sleep... but it seemed very unusual. Another thing I find odd...
.she has developed allergies in the past 8 months... but she
never stays allergic to the same thing. One day she can't be
around dogs or she swells up and gets itchy, but a week later
she's out playing with them. Or one day she can't have eggs, but
the day after she eats them and she's fine. This occurs in
numerous instances.

Another thing that gets me, in the past year she often wakes up
and vomits, and then is fine for the rest of the day. I have had
all these things checked by a doctor and no answers.

Now, I am a very concerned parent... and I ask my daughter about
things in a manner she will understand, but is point blank. Such
as, every morning I ask her if she had any dreams. Often she
comes to me without my asking because the ratio of bad dreams is
about 70%. She often dreams of the same things... fire.."bad
guys" "bad animals". I have tried asking her if she thinks some
dreams are real, but I don't think she really understands.

As for myself, I don't recall any other vivid dreams such as
that one. I too often have unexplainable bruising and injuries.
I have woke up with a sore knee on one occasion... .sore
neck... and various other things. I have never had a "scoop
mark". I have woken with the feeling of having had my throat
scraped though... like I was missing tissue on the inside of my
throat. The pain would disappear after a few hours.

Sometimes a person begins to feel like they are imagining
things. But you have to stop and ask yourself... out of all the
possibilities... what category does this fit into? I myself don't
really know. But I have a feeling that there is more to all this
then I've been told.

Take care Brian.

Thank you very much to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Kaufman County Object Filmed Around Chemtrail/Contrail

Date: September 6, 2004
Time: Approx: 6:30 p.m.

Hi Brian

I'm glad I was taking pictures of chemtrails this afternoon and
evening.I think it was about 6:30 p.m. today,.09-06-94,.I was
videoing a chemtrail that had just been laid. I noticed
something bright on the northeast end above it, but by the time
I started taping, it was in front of the trail. I taped it till
I lost it in the tree. Whatever it was had a short little trail
behind it. It was heading west coming from the east. I thought
this was odd because I've been skywatching regular now for about
a year and I've never seen a plane with a short trail, they
either have a long trail, about ten times the length of the
plane, or they're laying a trail across the sky, or have no
trail at all. It was about 7:52 p.m. when I saw a flash in the
northeast sky, I had my camera then and I pointed toward where I
saw it and snapped it. I saw that I captured something bright to
the left of the chemtrail but didn't notice the one in the
chemtrail until I downloaded them. The bright one was still
catching the sun, but the chemtrail was blocking the other one
from being lit up. These were heading nearly due north. To me
the picture shows the UFOs aren't planes, and they also have
short trails as in the video clip. The video and picture were
taken in Kaufman county, 20 miles east of Dallas, Texas. Brian,
I'm sending you the video clip and a copy of the un-retouched
picture of the objects and some blowups of the objects.

Thank you to the witness for the report, footage and photos.

Video clip Kaufman County Object Filmed Around
Chemtrail/Contrail 9.75mbs

To view clip:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1806

Brian Vike, Director
HBCC UFO Research
Home - Phone 250 845 2189
Box 1091, Houston, B.C.
Canada, VOJ 1ZO
email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com
HBCC UFO RESEARCH Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/








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   Sep > Sep 10

               Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:52:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:47:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Allan


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:38:53 -0300
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:58:00 +0100
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:04:03 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

><snip>

>>I haven't found any cases
>>which seem inexplicable, except those for which the information
>>is insufficient or unreliable. There have also been some very >
>intriguing hoaxes and I find it amusing that so many ufologists
>>are in denial about these stories being false, even when the
>>evidence is compelling.


>John,

>The above is truly an extraordinary claim and frankly nonsense.
>The professonals at Battelle Memorial Institute who prepared
>"Blue Book Special Report No. 14" (Copy available, but beware,
>it is loaded with data) found that they had to label 689 of the
>3201 cases (21.5%) they examined as UNKNOWN completely separate
>and distinct from the 298 (9.3%) which they listed as
>INSUFFICIENT INFORMATION.

>Furthermore they did a quality evaluation of all the cases and
>found that the better the quality of the case the MORE likely to
>be listed as UNKNOWN. They must have had tough criteria because
>only 9.6% were listed as EXCELLENT, yet 35.1% of them were
>UNKNOWNS while only 18.3% of the 525 POOR cases and 15.6% of the
>1298 Doubtful cases were listed as UNKNOWNS. A further 26.6% of
>the 1070 Good cases were listed as UNKNOWNS. The better the
>quality the more likely to be UNKNOWNS.

>Frankly it would appear to be straight balderdash that there are
>no cases with sufficient information that were unexplainable,
>and that the problem was poor quality.

>I suppose one solution as to how you could make such an
>extraordinary claim, backed by no data, is that you have only
>looked at a few poor cases and have rushed to judgement by
>extrapolation to a grandiose claim.


It is odd that Stan Friedman places so much reliance on this
50-year old report (presumably because it is the only official
report that gives the slightest support to his own beliefs).

Stan has always insisted that it is on-the-spot investigations
that count in ufology (i.e. get out of your armchairs, folks).

The Battelle study was based on reports and investigations
already done by the USAF. The researchers at Battelle did not
personally investigate one single case. They did it all the chi-
square tests 'from their armchairs'.

But Stan still accepts their statistics.

However, their conclusions disown their own statistics. How does
Stan account for this volte-face?

In some instances they even reversed the USAF solutions and
decided cases were unknowns. And their 12 'good unknowns' are,
quite frankly, garbage. (The USAF only lists 6 of these as
unknowns).

Allan Hendry has shown up the shortcomings of this Battelle/USAF
report in "The UFO Handbook". But Stan never, repeat never,
 mentions this critique.


CDA

[I have only just noticed John Harney's reply after writing
the above].







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   Sep > Sep 10

                  Coppola's Abduction Mini-Series: The 4400

From: Victor Viggiani <zland.nul>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:28:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:21:04 -0400
Subject: Coppola's Abduction Mini-Series: The 4400


Readers,

Will the Abduction phenomenon get yet another shot at the
reality factor or will it become another fluff factor in the
media's attempt to deaden our probative instincts about
significant social issues?

There is every reason to believe that the abduction phenomenon
is beginning to engrain itself in media sub-strata by occupying
the consciousness of major film makers. As evidenced by Francis
Ford Coppola's new 5 part mini-series supposedly due to air in
Canada on the Space Channel September 22, 2004, one begins to
wonder what compels renowned film makers to dabble in this stuff
of the most bizarre.

Why would the USA Network and NBC Universal be so interested in
such marginal and allegedly specious subject matter?

Simply entertainment you say. Quite so.

Socio-political agenda building or financial pragmatism? Flip
that coin to find it has only one heads.

Series by line quote:

"From Executive Producer Francis Ford Coppola's production
company, American Zoetrope, comes a haunting new limited series:
THE 4400. Over the last century, thousands of people have gone
missing. Suddenly and inexplicably, 4400 missing people are
returned all at once, as they were on the day they vanished.
Unclear what this world altering-event means, the government
investigates the 4400 to piece together where they've been and
why they've been returned. It quickly becomes apparent that
their presence will change the human race in ways no one could
have ever foreseen."

The jury is still out on the political capital Francis Ford
Coppola's effort will fashion for himself and his investors
among the media and the general public. Will the mini-series The
4400 be just another clever flick or something of a wedge to
fracture the reality-box of the cosmically impaired?

It will be most interesting to see if the ideological and
sociological impact of this UFO/ET related series is again out
weighed by the all powerful production-for-profit-motive of a
prominent film maker and his backers.

Or, could it be that Francis Ford has another agenda?

The effects of TAKEN by Mr. Spielberg seem to have fallen and be
forgotten. If Mr. Spielberg truly considered the abduction
phenomenon and truth in government real issues, he'd have spoken
out when, and after, the awards were given out. We heard only the
crunch of dollar bills folding into the pockets of producers and
sponsors.

The 4400 who knows? Mr. Coppola what say you?

Put it on TV to obfuscate or engender sustained social
discourse?

Most TV programs are seemingly sequential hunks of information
that are about 6 or 7 commercials away from the final credits
and the eternal abyss of public forgetability. (Definition of a
commercial: One to three minutes of sight and sound designed to
make one forget the last 12 minutes and to prepare the intellect
to repress the next 12 minutes. The same can be said of the News
unless it's happening outside your front door.)

The consciousness of the viewing public is being experimented
upon to deaden its probative awareness to create the belief that
the ET issue, along with most other highly poignant social
issues like the destruction of the Rain Forests, the depletion
of the Ozone layer and Sexual Tourism, is simply fodder for
mindless TV consumption and not the stuff of legitimate socio-
political activism that must be taken for fear that our days as
a species are numbered.

Will something like The 4400 break this barrier? Who knows?

If nothing else it is a very splashy web site:

http://www.usanetwork.com/series/the4400/


Victor Viggiani


[In Canada starts Wednesday September 22nd at 10:00 p.m.
 Eastern on Space channel:

 http://www.spacecast.com/shows/specials/the_4400.asp

 --ebk]








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   Sep > Sep 10

             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 21:24:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:25:40 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:04:25 -0500
>Subject: Re:

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:10:51 +0100
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>True the GAO (not GSA) did admit records from that time period,
>>and other time periods, had been destroyed. But are we really to
>>believe that important records pertaining to the discovery of ET
>>life visiting planet earth (of supreme and lasting interest to
>>scientists the world over) were simply destroyed?

>>The obvious conclusion to me is that the disposed of records
>>were harmless personnel/admin stuff that was of no interest to
>>anyone.

>I can imagine that just about every American on this List will
>be as amused as I am at our British friend's naivete about the
>capacity of our government to keep secrets and to manipulate
>public opinion.  Still, I am touched that the vision of American
>governance we were taught when we were in second grade still
>lives - overseas, at least, though it's long vanished from
>America's civic faith.

>There may be a case to make against Roswell, but this isn't it.
>Even if you swallow whole the Air Force's current version of
>what really happened, it managed - by its own admission - to
>keep a secret for a very long time.

>I'm sure Christopher's touching belief in the virtue of official
>Washington, with its so often demonstrated desire to be open and
>honest, is a sincere one, but I'm afraid that's as much as can
>be said for it. For my part, I promise not to regale Listfolk
>with confident claims about what the British government is and
>is not capable of.

Of course the American government can keep secrets for a long
period of time, but surely only about matters over which the
American government has a large degree of control. Unless the US
government had come to some sort of deal with the Roswell
entities (I know some people do believe this, but not, as far as
I know, Jerry Clark) they had no control over where and when the
next UFO crash or controlled landing might take place. As Greg
Boone so wittily explained in his excellent 'reductio ad
absurdum' argument on this List a week or so back, such a cover-
up would require the co-operation of all other world
governments - even ones totally hostile to the US - scientists,
astronomers, engineers, biologists, doctors, and thousands of
military personnel. In fact almost everyone who's not on the
UpDates List!

I'm sure the US government is skilled in duplicity, and holds
many secrets, but the crash of an extraterrestrial spacecraft in
New Mexico is not one of them.

Of course, the crash in New Mexico of something else - something
the US government _does_ have control of - and which after fifty
years it still doesn't want anyone to know about, is another
matter altogether!


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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   Sep > Sep 10

             Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 01:37:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:33:01 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:24:21 -0700
>Subject: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

<snip>

Can you say how far you were from the l field?










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   Sep > Sep 10

                            UFOs & Media Request

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:59:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:37:52 -0400
Subject: UFOs & Media Request


Hello all,

I need some information before I answer the message below,
suggesting a TV interview, something I avoid. Those often turn
into 'roast the crackpot' affairs more for chuckles than
anything else.

Does anyone know about, or has anyone had any experience with
Sean McGinn (Associate Producer/Researcher) or his "Tactical to
Practical" show by Edelman Productions on the Discovery Channel?


Thanks

- Larry

-----

From: Sean McGinn <smcginn.nul>
To: webmaster.nul
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:01:25 -0700
Subj: UFOS -- Media Request


Hello Mr. Hatch, I came across your website while doing research
for a story on searching for life in the universe for The
History Channel's  Tactical to Practical television program. I
was wondering where in the country you are located, and if you
do interviews.

Sean


Sean McGinn
Associate Producer/Researcher
"Tactical to Practical"
Edelman Productions
<snip>








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   Sep > Sep 10

                  Re: Did You Take The 'UFO Quiz'? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 03:53:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:40:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Did You Take The 'UFO Quiz'? - Hatch


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:12:37 EDT
>Subject: Did You Take The 'UFO Quiz'?

>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5897539/

>The MSNBC story about the NIDS research has a cool 'UFO Quiz'
near the bottom of the story. It's an interactive quiz to test
one's knowledge of UFOlogy. I got all but one question correct.
It was a question about the 'Heaven's Gate' group. I'm glad I
missed that one.


Hello Greg:

My browser has an aggressive Ad-Blocker, which may be preventing
me from getting to the UFO Quiz on the MSNBC page you gave.

Can you give a URL directly to the quiz itself? I looked all
over but don't see anything to click on, just a thin bar
mentioning the quiz.


Thanks

- Larry








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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Kaiser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:42:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:50:19 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Kaiser


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 21:24:42 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>I'm sure the US government is skilled in duplicity, and holds
>many secrets, but the crash of an extraterrestrial spacecraft in
>New Mexico is not one of them.

John,

I have to ask how you can support this as a statement of fact,
rather than "rational conclusion". Any evidence to support this
would be greatly appreciated by many researchers who'd like to
reduce the noise level in this genre.


Steve









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              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:10:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:04:51 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 21:24:42 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell


>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:04:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re:

>>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:10:51 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>The obvious conclusion to me is that the disposed of records
>>>were harmless personnel/admin stuff that was of no interest to
>>>anyone.

>>I'm sure Christopher's touching belief in the virtue of official
>>Washington, with its so often demonstrated desire to be open and
>>honest, is a sincere one, but I'm afraid that's as much as can
>>be said for it. For my part, I promise not to regale Listfolk
>>with confident claims about what the British government is and
>>is not capable of.

>Of course the American government can keep secrets for a long
>period of time, but surely only about matters over which the
>American government has a large degree of control. Unless the US
>government had come to some sort of deal with the Roswell
>entities (I know some people do believe this, but not, as far as
>I know, Jerry Clark) they had no control over where and when the
>next UFO crash or controlled landing might take place. As Greg
>Boone so wittily explained in his excellent 'reductio ad
>absurdum' argument on this List a week or so back, such a cover-
>up would require the co-operation of all other world
>governments - even ones totally hostile to the US - scientists,
>astronomers, engineers, biologists, doctors, and thousands of
>military personnel. In fact almost everyone who's not on the
>UpDates List!

I guess I don't follow the reasoning here. Maybe it would make
sense if UFOs were crashing everywhere and constitute a public-
safety problem. I see no reason to believe that, unless John
knows something I don't. If the crash of an ET spacecraft,
Roswell has proved over time to be an exceedingly rare event.

>I'm sure the US government is skilled in duplicity, and holds
>many secrets, but the crash of an extraterrestrial spacecraft in
>New Mexico is not one of them.

According to you. As for me, I find the proposition not
incredible, at least on a theoretical level. (On the other side
of theory, actual evidence is - if not exactly nonexistent - not
terribly compelling, either.) It all depends, of course, on how
such a secret is handled and how it is hidden. Beyond that, if
one were so inclined, one could argue that the secret hasn't
been kept; all kinds of people who were there, or who knew
somebody who was there, have spoken out. At least some of them
appear to be sincere.

In that sense, Roswell remains "secret" only because the U.S.
government continues to conceal the documentation that would
validate the unconfirmed oral testimony. Beyond that, because of
its fantastic nature, the secret keeps itself because elite
media, which routinely seek to expose secrets, dismiss the
notion as too outlandish to take up. Thus, elite opinion pushes
Roswell to the fringes and thereafter uses its position on the
fringes as a reason to continue to ignore it.

My political problem with Roswell has nothing to do with the to
- me unconvincing argument that such a secret couldn't be kept,
at least in the sense John seems to mean. Rather, it's that
nothing on all sorts of levels of official policy, not to
mention post- World War II history, strikes me as plausibly
consistent with the hypothesis of a crashed ET spacecraft and
access to its extraordinary secrets.

I think it's hard to dispute that events in the world over the
past six decades give us no reason to suspect that they were in
any way influenced by a crashed UFO and all that would follow
(such as, just to start with, breakthroughs in aviation and
weapons technology) from it. In other words, the reality of ET
wreckage and technology is not discernible by inference from
other developments. I suppose that a Roswell proponent could
argue that the material was so advanced that even now scientists
and engineers studying it remain baffled by it. Maybe, but it's
hard for me to believe that after all this time our scientific
understanding remains _that_ primitive.

In any event, my point is that Roswell discussion, in which I am
agnostic to the bone, is by its nature speculative and, I
believe, has proved ultimately unproductive. For now we would do
well to resign ourselves to continuing ambiguity and
uncertainty, in my opinion, and move on.


Jerry Clark








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               Re: Coppola's Abduction Mini-Series: The 4400 -

From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:41:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:21:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Coppola's Abduction Mini-Series: The 4400 -


>From: Victor Viggiani <zland.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:28:46 -0400
>Subject: Coppola's Abduction Mini-Series: The 4400

<snip>

>Will something like The 4400 break this barrier? Who knows?

It already was shown in the USA. It is well done with excellent
actors.  It is not a UFO abduction story at all, but borrows
from the Schwartzenegger "Terminator" ideas by having time
travelers doing the abductions and sending the altered abductees
back to change the course of history and prevent armageddon.


Bob









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                          Secrecy News -- 09/10/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:58:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:23:21 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 09/10/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 80
September 10, 2004


**      ACTING DCI ENDORSES INTELLIGENCE BUDGET DISCLOSURE
**      INTELLIGENCE REFORM ACTIVITY
**      OPEN SOURCES ON LASER ENRICHMENT IN SOUTH KOREA
**      DOCUMENTING ATROCITIES IN DARFUR
**      PRESERVE FREE ACCESS TO PATHOGEN GENOMES, PANEL URGES
**      A CALL TO PATRIOTIC WHISTLEBLOWING


ACTING DCI ENDORSES INTELLIGENCE BUDGET DISCLOSURE

For the first time, a sitting Director of Central Intelligence
has given his conditional endorsement to routine annual
disclosure of the size of the national intelligence budget.

"If there is a separate appropriation for the foreign
intelligence program, the National Foreign Intelligence Program,
as distinct from the current arrangement where that
appropriation is buried in the larger Defense Department bill, I
think it would make some sense to declassify the overall number
for the foreign intelligence program," said Acting DCI John E.
McLaughlin, testifying before the Senate Governmental Affairs
Committee on September 8.

"I would not go so far as to declassify the numbers for the
individual agencies," as the 9/11 Commission unanimously
recommended.

"But I don't think that declassifying the top line would be a
major security threat," Mr. McLaughlin said in response to a
question from Senator Joe Lieberman. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/09/s090804.html

This is a remarkable reversal on the part of the CIA, which has
made budget secrecy an article of faith, contending that even
half-century-old intelligence budget figures would damage
national security if disclosed. (Aggregate intelligence budget
figures from 1997 and 1998 were released under pressure of
litigation.)

In making his statement, the Acting DCI abandoned two flimsy but
longstanding CIA arguments against intelligence budget
disclosure: (1) the "slippery slope" argument, referring to the
claim that if the total budget figure were disclosed, the
government would then be powerless to stop other, more sensitive
budget disclosures; and (2) the claim that sensitive
programmatic information could somehow be discerned by hostile
analysts from the annual increases or decreases in the total
budget figure.

Acting DCI McLaughlin's support for budget disclosure was,
however, conditioned on the establishment of a separate budget
appropriation for the National Foreign Intelligence Program.
 This reflects the CIA view that the current concealment of
intelligence spending within the Defense Department budget is
itself an "intelligence method" that must be protected, and that
routine annual disclosure of the budget total would lead to
exposure of exactly where the funding is concealed.

But this is a circular argument that amounts to saying that the
budget must remain secret so that it can remain secret. Aside
from that, it is objectively false: prior declassifications of
intelligence budget totals in 1997 and 1998 could not be
"reverse engineered" so as to locate exactly where the funds
were hidden in the Defense budget. (We tried.)

Interestingly, Mr. McLaughlin expressed support for
declassification of the national intelligence (NFIP) budget
rather than the aggregate total of all intelligence spending.
 But by leaving out tactical and joint military intelligence
spending, this form of disclosure would actually be more
revealing of the national intelligence budget than the aggregate
figure; it would provide a finer level of detail, or
"granularity."

"We have not heard a compelling argument for maintaining overall
classification," said 9/11 Commission member John F. Lehman, at
a September 7 hearing of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

"The American public would be shocked if they knew the
misallocation of resources between HUMINT and other aspects of
our intelligence budget," he said. "They need to know that.
 How can you carry on a debate on the floor of the Senate
without talking about those kind of gross numbers?" See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/09/ssci090704.html


INTELLIGENCE REFORM ACTIVITY

Bipartisan legislation was introduced in the Senate this week
that would implement nearly all of the 41 recommendations of the
9/11 Commission.

A summary of the 280 page bill is available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/09/911act-summary.pdf

The introductory statements of Senators McCain, Lieberman and
others may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2004_cr/s2774.html

The White House endorsed the creation of the National
Intelligence Director with full budget authority over the
National Foreign Intelligence Program. See this White House
fact sheet:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/09/wh090804.html


OPEN SOURCES ON LASER ENRICHMENT IN SOUTH KOREA

South Korea's acknowledgment that it conducted experiments
involving the laser enrichment of uranium four years ago (and
earlier experiments with plutonium) came as an unwelcome
surprise, particularly since these appeared to be a violation of
the country's obligations under the Nuclear Nonproliferation
Treaty.

But a considerable amount of information has long been available
in the public domain regarding South Korea's interests and
capabilities in the field.

A survey of that information was produced in 1996 by independent
researcher Mark Gorwitz. See "The South Korean Laser Isotope
Separation Experience":

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/rok/sklis.pdf

Related source materials, including publication abstracts and
patents, also compiled by Mr. Gorwitz, may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/rok/sklis-sources.pdf


DOCUMENTING ATROCITIES IN DARFUR

The U.S. State Department has published a new documentary
account of atrocities committed in the Darfur region of Sudan.
 The Secretary of State said this week that the systematic
abuses constitute genocide.

The new report, entitled "Documenting Atrocities in Darfur," was
produced by the Department's intelligence organization, the
Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR). It is available
here:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/36028.htm


PRESERVE FREE ACCESS TO PATHOGEN GENOMES, PANEL URGES

Unrestricted access to the genetic makeup of lethal biological
agents serves the best interests of science and public health,
according to a new report from the National Academy of Sciences,
and existing policies should not be modified to limit such
access.

To see the issue as a choice between security and openness
involves "a false dichotomy," the NAS authors wrote. "Openness
has enhanced security in the past and is the best way to ensure
security in the future."

"The committee believes firmly that the policies currently in
place for genome data -- immediate release and free access --
 are correct because openness is essential to maintain the
progress needed to stay ahead of those who would attempt to
cause harm."

See this September 9 news release:

http://www4.nationalacademies.org/news.nsf/isbn/0309093058?OpenD
ocument

The full text of the new report, "Seeking Security: Pathogens,
Open Access, and Genome Databases," is available here:

http://www.nap.edu/books/0309093058/html/


A CALL TO PATRIOTIC WHISTLEBLOWING

A group of whistleblowers led by Daniel Ellsberg yesterday
called on government employees to "expose governmental wrong-
doing, lies and coverups" by leaking documents, including
classified documents, that reveal such misconduct. (The call
for leaks excludes several narrow categories of classified
information such as the names of intelligence officers under
cover that are protected by statute.)

The initiative "aims to change the norms and practices that
sustain the cult of secrecy, and to de-legitimize silence that
costs lives." See:

http://www.truthtellingproject.org/

While unauthorized disclosures of government information are
essential to daily news gathering and are obviously morally
justified in various circumstances -- "an expression of a higher
loyalty," as Ellsberg put it -- they can also place the leaker
in legal jeopardy.

Even the unauthorized disclosure of unclassified information may
in some circumstances entail criminal prosecution.

"The improper release of such information can be prosecuted as a
crime under the general theft of government property statute 18
U.S.C. section 641," noted David Berry of the National Labor
Relations Board office of the inspector general in a journal
article last year.

See "Theft and Misuse of Government Information," Journal of
Public Inquiry, Fall-Winter 2003 (thanks to MJR):

http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/jpi-theft.pdf



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691








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   Sep > Sep 11

             Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:24:42 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:25:20 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 01:37:47 -0400
>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words


>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:24:21 -0700
>>Subject: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

><snip>

>Can you say how far you were from the l field?

Also, as I recall, the altitude was much greater than that of
the drug interdiction plane, was it not? Greater altitude means
much greater field of view.


Stan Friedman








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             Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:22:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:30:27 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:24:21 -0700
>Subject: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>A Picture or Video is Worth a Thousand Words.

>As I can see the Mexican Air Force is not going to fly or
>present any test from the FLIR video of march 05, 2004.

<snip>

>Mexican Air Force FLIR's video lights are not UFOs
>they are oil well gas flames!

>http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/FLIR_CONCLUSION.html

>Regards,

>Capt. Alejandro Franz

"O Captain! My Captain! rise up and hear the bells;
Rise up-for you the flag is flung-for you the bugle trills;
For you bouquets and ribbon'd wreaths-for you the shores
a-crowding;
For you they call, the swaying mass, their eager faces
turning:"
                 --"O Captain! My Captain!" by Walt Whitman


Hello Alejandro, List,

Thank you for your excellent example of thorough, unrelenting
research in the face of hostility from the supporters of the
case.

There are still two things that  puzzle me slightly, even though
I am satisfied that you have identified the cause;

1. Surely the Mexican military were quite capable of doing
exactly what you, Richard Gemmell, James Smith, and Laurent
Leger did without enlisting the help of people whose only skill
is entertaining fools? The Mexican military also refused the
offer of assistance from skilled scientists - were they afraid
that the truth would be uncovered by them (but not by the
"useful idiots")? What exactly was the motivation of the
military in this pantomime?

2. Did your aircraft have on-board radar? If so, did it detect
anything? The radar information taken seperately from the FLIR
images is interesting, but without the FLIR correlation, purely
anecdotal.

"I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -
I took the one less travelled by,
And that has made all the difference."

--From "The Road not Taken", Robert Frost.

Regards,

Joe









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                        Re: In Plain Sight - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:17:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:34:07 -0400
Subject: Re: In Plain Sight - Maccabee


>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 22:1:24 -0400
>Subject: In Plain Sight

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 14:48:07 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

<snip>

>The Project Blue Book microfilms are costly to purchase and it
>is difficult to find microfilm equipment to view the cases.
>Perhaps these are the reason that very little is heard about
>such cases. It might also be the case that since Project Blue
>Book is held in low esteem by many researchers, the feeling
>might be that these cases, especially "explained" are not worthy
>of any attention.

>In an effort to increase access to the Project Blue Book files,
>we have proposed that the microfilms be scanned into searchable
>text which can be placed on the Internet or sold on DVD's. So
>far most of the technical problems have been worked out. Such
>ambitious projects usually fall by the wayside. However, easy
>access would probably stimulate research by more people who
>could like Brad, Loren, and Joel come up with bits and piece
>hidden here and there, and also see relationships which others
>have missed.

>Significant UFO information is hidden, then, in plain sight
>among the mass of Blue Book case files!

I agree with the "hidden in plain sight" statement.

Back when I was visiting the (old) national archives in the
halcyon days of my youth (28 years ago!), back in the days when
you could actually walk to the shelves which held the 98(?)
rolls of microfilm, I discovered numerous cases that were
mind-blowing.

I also discovered that the Air Force Office of Special
Investigation files were combined with the Blue Book files.

The AFOSI files contained some information not found in the BB
files. Of importance to me, at the time, was the fact that the
AFOSI section of the microfilm records contained the details of
Case 10 of Special Report #14, one of the best simple-visual,
multiple-witness-sightings, ever.








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                         Re: Cattle Mutes - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:17:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:54:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes - Maccabee


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:30:26 -0500
>Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes

>>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:15:09 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes

<snip>

>If black budget programs exist which provide for ET "projects"
>on American citizens without their express knowledge and
>acquiescence, I think another revolution might be indicated.
>Surely this would rank above tea on the taxation without
>representation scale.

<snip>

If you want to see this spelled out in detail read the magnum
opus by 'Victor Norgarde - Dr. John Brandenberg - "Morningstar
Pass" (1st Books, 2003).

If you can ignore the poor editing you will find an amazing
story - fiction - which starts from the assumption of an
agreement with aliens and plays out the consequences of that.

The magnum opus is 711 pages long, so if you start reading we
won't expect to see you on UpDates for a while.








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              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:01:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:26:11 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Allan


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:04:25 -0500
>Subject: Re:

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:10:51 +0100
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>True the GAO (not GSA) did admit records from that time period,
>>and other time periods, had been destroyed. But are we really to
>>believe that important records pertaining to the discovery of ET
>>life visiting planet earth (of supreme and lasting interest to
>>scientists the world over) were simply destroyed?

>>The obvious conclusion to me is that the disposed of records
>>were harmless personnel/admin stuff that was of no interest to
>>anyone.

>I can imagine that just about every American on this List will
>be as amused as I am at our British friend's naivete about the
>capacity of our government to keep secrets and to manipulate
>public opinion. Still, I am touched that the vision of American
>governance we were taught when we were in second grade still
>lives - overseas, at least, though it's long vanished from
>America's civic faith.

>There may be a case to make against Roswell, but this isn't it.
>Even if you swallow whole the Air Force's current version of
>what really happened, it managed - by its own admission - to
>keep a secret for a very long time.

>I'm sure Christopher's touching belief in the virtue of official
>Washington, with its so often demonstrated desire to be open and
>honest, is a sincere one, but I'm afraid that's as much as can
>be said for it.For my part, I promise not to regale Listfolk
>with confident claims about what the British government is and
>is not capable of.


Jerry:

Without going too much into just what info official Washington
could, or would, conceal from the public, I'd like to ask you
this:

Do you believe that documents relating to the discovery of ETs
visiting planet earth (i.e. probably the greatest and most
important scientific discovery ever made) were simply put
through the shredding machine as if they were waste paper,
whilst the 'great secret' was, and still is, intact, and known
only to a select few?

Please answer this question, and not widen it into a general
discussion of what secrets US govt officials are capable of
keeping under wraps.

As regards the UK govt doing a similar act of destroying
valuable papers about ET visits (if this evidence were
discovered in, say, the Rendlesham or Berwyn cases), I would say
that such action is, quite simply, unthinkable. Nor would any
responsible scientist, whether in government or not, disagree.

Perhaps Nick Pope can give his views.

You are perfectly free to say what you like about what the UK
(or any other) government is capable of covering up and lying
about. Don't hesitate about 'regaling' listfolk either.

A certain Mohammed al Fayed is still besotted with the idea that
his son Dodi and Princess Diana were murdered by MI5, with
Prince Philip in on the plot. (All to stop a possible
interracial marriage in the Royal Family, you see.)

Can you beat that, Jerry?


Regards,

Christopher








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                      New Resource For Whistle-Blowers

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:32:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:30:37 -0400
Subject: New Resource For Whistle-Blowers


A New Public-Service Resource for Whistle-Blowers

By Larry W. Bryant

Current and prospective whistle-blowers (including the UFO-
coverup genre) have a new resource.

It's being provided by former Vietnam-era whistle-blower Daniel
Ellsberg. His specialty web site:

http://www.truthtellingproject.org

offers these "insider" heroes of truth-telling not just safe
harbor, empathy, and commiseration but also a manifesto, a suit
of rhetorical armor, and a reservoir of how-to-tell-and-survive
tips and tools of the whistleblowing craft. The site's public-
service potential should attract most government-reform
advocates/practitioners from all quarters - including the public
sector, academia, and the privately funded think-tank community.

Focused mainly on soliciting, grooming, and coaching a new crop
of whistleblowers being spawned by the policies, events, and
principals of the Iraqnam fiasco, this citizens' avenue to the
hidden truth about government/corporate mal-/mis-/non-feasance
deserves our support.

What's more: were several new whistle-blowers of the Ufological
kind to emerge from this web site's operations, let's hope
Ellsberg would devote a sub-page to their genre and revelations.
We could call it the Jesse Marcel Memorial Whistle-Blower
Sub-page.

NOTE: for a Sept. 10, 2004, Associated Press feature story on
the Ellsberg project, visit the following link:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0712-04.htm










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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:37:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:33:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Rimmer


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:52:06 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:38:53 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>Allan Hendry has shown up the shortcomings of this Battelle/USAF
>report in "The UFO Handbook". But Stan never, repeat never,
> mentions this critique.

What was it someone said, "If the public don't know, don't tell
them"?


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 11

                 Mexican Air Force Video Transcript Un-Cut?

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:45:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:39:17 -0400
Subject: Mexican Air Force Video Transcript Un-Cut?


Hello all,

I am working on the Mexican Air Force video semi-edited
audio-transcript from the 32 minutes video obtained from:

http://www.pixcells.dk/mexico/mexicoDODstream.wmv

I say "semi-edited" because the above video link has many cuts
and I don't know if somebody has the un-cut or the original
copy on DVD. I am trying to do my best.

Here is the first part and you'll see in other transcripts how
many important words expose how the C26A crew knew the RADAR was
not working well - also how unprofessional they behaved in their
cockpit communications.

There was and still is a cover-up!

Any comments are welcome also I would like to have some help
from those who speak Spanish here on the List and could detect
any mistake.

PART 1 of 10

http://www.alcione.org/CAMPECHE/Pozos%20petroleros.htm


Regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director.nul








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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:56:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:47:41 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:10:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 21:24:42 +0100
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>Of course the American government can keep secrets for a long
>>period of time, but surely only about matters over which the
>>American government has a large degree of control. Unless the US
>>government had come to some sort of deal with the Roswell
>>entities (I know some people do believe this, but not, as far as
>>I know, Jerry Clark) they had no control over where and when the
>>next UFO crash or controlled landing might take place. As Greg
>>Boone so wittily explained in his excellent 'reductio ad
>>absurdum' argument on this List a week or so back, such a cover-
>>up would require the co-operation of all other world
>>governments - even ones totally hostile to the US - scientists,
>>astronomers, engineers, biologists, doctors, and thousands of
>>military personnel. In fact almost everyone who's not on the
>>UpDates List!

>I guess I don't follow the reasoning here. Maybe it would make
>sense if UFOs were crashing everywhere and constitute a public-
>safety problem. I see no reason to believe that, unless John
>knows something I don't. If the crash of an ET spacecraft,
>Roswell has proved over time to be an exceedingly rare event.

But of course, if the Roswell crash had been that of an
extraterrestrial craft, the government at the time would not
know how rare such events would turn out to be (although there
are plenty of people around here who don't seem to think such
crashes are at all rare). The US government could not be sure
whether or not the USSR had been in contact with a similar craft
and its crew

<snip>

>My political problem with Roswell has nothing to do with the to
>- me unconvincing argument that such a secret couldn't be kept,
>at least in the sense John seems to mean.

I'm not sure what you mean by "in the sense John seems to mean".
Keeping a secret means just what it says, doesn't it? Knowing
something and not letting anyone else find out about it.

>Rather, it's that
>nothing on all sorts of levels of official policy, not to
>mention post- World War II history, strikes me as plausibly
>consistent with the hypothesis of a crashed ET spacecraft and
>access to its extraordinary secrets.

>I think it's hard to dispute that events in the world over the
>past six decades give us no reason to suspect that they were in
>any way influenced by a crashed UFO and all that would follow
>(such as, just to start with, breakthroughs in aviation and
>weapons technology) from it. In other words, the reality of ET
>wreckage and technology is not discernible by inference from
>other developments. I suppose that a Roswell proponent could
>argue that the material was so advanced that even now scientists
>and engineers studying it remain baffled by it. Maybe, but it's
>hard for me to believe that after all this time our scientific
>understanding remains _that_ primitive.

Here I am in total agreement with Jerry, and this is an issue
which Peter Brookesmith has discussed recently in Magonia. The
main argumant against Roswell is historical. We would be living
in a very different world if Roswell had happened as it
proponents believe. Apart from anything else, the number of
scientists in a vast range of disciplines who would be plunged
into full-time analysis of the wreckage, the propulsion systems,
the materials, the biological remains, would soon become obvious
within the academic world any beyond. Everyone from nuclear
scientists to linguists would be involved.

I would go further, and say that this broad historical argument
indicates that there has been no contact of any kind between
earth-bound governments and any extraterrestrial intelligence,
or even that any government has positive proof of the existence
of ET. I am sure that for instance the whole history of the Cold
War and US - USSR relations would be quite different if either
power had been in contact with extraterrestrials.

>In any event, my point is that Roswell discussion, in which I am
>agnostic to the bone, is by its nature speculative and, I
>believe, has proved ultimately unproductive. For now we would do
>well to resign ourselves to continuing ambiguity and
>uncertainty, in my opinion, and move on.

I don't quite see how, having said what you said above, you can
call yourself agnostic on the issue, as you have presented the
prime argument against the conventional Roswell narrative. But
be that as it may, as far as I'm concerned, case closed, thanks
to Jerry.


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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   Sep > Sep 11

                    "What The Bleep Do We Do Now?" Review

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:44:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 11:09:53 -0400
Subject: "What The Bleep Do We Do Now?" Review


http://www.suntimes.com/output/ebert1/wkp-news-what10f.html

This review of the new movie/documentary about quantum physics
is reviewed by veteran film critic Roger Ebert from the Chicago
Sun Times.

Not only is the review funny but I thought of the folks on this
List who know their protons from their mesons.

The key thing in Ebert's review is whether he understood what
was presented by the several scientists.

Anyone here on the list see this flick yet? Did they get their
physics right or did they fall to convention about the
unconventional.


Best,

Greg







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              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:58:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 11:19:50 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:01:42 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:04:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re:

>>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:10:51 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>I'm sure Christopher's touching belief in the virtue of official
>>Washington, with its so often demonstrated desire to be open and
>>honest, is a sincere one, but I'm afraid that's as much as can
>>be said for it.For my part, I promise not to regale Listfolk
>>with confident claims about what the British government is and
>>is not capable of.

>Without going too much into just what info official Washington
>could, or would, conceal from the public, I'd like to ask you
>this:

>Do you believe that documents relating to the discovery of ETs
>visiting planet earth (i.e. probably the greatest and most
>important scientific discovery ever made) were simply put
>through the shredding machine as if they were waste paper,
>whilst the 'great secret' was, and still is, intact, and known
>only to a select few?

>Please answer this question, and not widen it into a general
>discussion of what secrets US govt officials are capable of
>keeping under wraps.

Christopher,

In other words, take the whole question out of any sort of
necessary context. Nice try, but sorry, I wasn't born yesterday.
In any event:

This is precisely the sort of naive question that caused me to
write in the first place. I confess that I fail to understand
why you, a non-American without any observable understanding of
how the U.S. government works its secrets, would wade into this
discussion with confident pronouncements, using the absurd
analogy of a grieving father's conspiracy theory as if you were
actually scoring a point or even being coherent.

The answer to your question is such an obvious one that I briefly
considered not answering it because it is, frankly, too obtuse to
merit a response. But I have decided to soldier on and provide it
for you. Here it is:

Of course not.

I take it we are to believe there are only two options: (a)
turning documents over to a reporter or other official agency or
(b) shredding them. Americans watching the current effort to
retrieve documents about Bush's military record - a potentially
explosive political issue - from a manifestly unwilling
administration (which continually declares it's turned over
everything, until somebody finds crucial documents that weren't)
will see a ready example of how this works. And with the Bush
military records, the document deficit continues even after all
kinds of smart, well-connected people and trained journalists
spend anywhere from months to years trying to uncover them -
which (except for the GAO search and the Air Force's
self-serving enterprise) they certainly haven't done with
Roswell.

This is not, as apparently you would have it, a defense of
Roswell, the pros and cons of which can be debated on other,
more cogent grounds. What I object to is your foolish insistence
that records on vital matters - _especially_ vital matters -
can't be hidden even from the most determined prying eyes.
There are good reasons to question Roswell as ET-related event
(I discussed one of them in a response yesterday to John
Rimmer), but yours isn't one of them.


Jerry Clark








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   Sep > Sep 11

             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:00:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 11:21:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Lehmberg


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:37:17 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:52:06 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:38:53 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>Allan Hendry has shown up the shortcomings of this Battelle/USAF
>>report in "The UFO Handbook". But Stan never, repeat never,
>>mentions this critique.

>What was it someone said, "If the public don't know, don't tell
>them"?

Wonderful! What duplicitous parrying. What deft obfuscation. I
suspected this is going to be inserted deeply into your adipose,
and then broken off like a Plexiglas shard.  Neat trick faintly
suggesting Stanton Friedman is the _only_ one guilty of this
pelicanistic tactic, a tactic Friedman has warned us about for
years. It makes me wonder about the real value of Hendry's
paper, his assessment of Battelle/USAF, and Mr. Allan's
revelation in it's regard.


alienview.nul
   www.AlienView.net









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   Sep > Sep 11

              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:14:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 11:39:29 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:56:24 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:10:14 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 21:24:42 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>I guess I don't follow the reasoning here. Maybe it would make
>>sense if UFOs were crashing everywhere and constitute a public-
>>safety problem. I see no reason to believe that, unless John
>>knows something I don't. If the crash of an ET spacecraft,
>>Roswell has proved over time to be an exceedingly rare event.

>But of course, if the Roswell crash had been that of an
>extraterrestrial craft, the government at the time would not
>know how rare such events would turn out to be (although there
>are plenty of people around here who don't seem to think such
>crashes are at all rare). The US government could not be sure
>whether or not the USSR had been in contact with a similar craft
>and its crew

Well, yeah. But under the circumstances obtaining in the early
Cold War, no imaginable government on earth would _not_ have
kept a crashed spacecraft a deep secret. It would simply hope
that its enemies didn't have access to the same material. More
than that, it would use its intelligence facilities to find out
if the Soviets (or whoever) were keeping their own comparable
secrets.

The Roswell event, whatever it was about, remains an intriguing
historical mystery. Far from closed, the case looks more
puzzling than ever. Documents that have yet to come to light
will presumably tell us - or our children and grandchildren -
 what lies behind the veil. Every instinct tells me (though I'd
be pleased to be wrong) that this will not happen in the
lifetimes of at least us more grizzled ufologists.

One has to ask, if the incident was as trivial as the official
version has it, why - even after decades - we don't have a clear
picture of what occurred?  (Speculations such as the Air Force
advanced are not a "clear picture," just another theory which
depends on the centrality of convenient testimony and the deep-
 sixing of the inconvenient. Pretty much, in other words, in the
manner of all Roswell discourse.) In the meantime, the confusion
and ambiguity go on, and ufologists seem powerless to change
that. As I've said a few times already, it's time to move on.


Jerry Clark








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             Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:00:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:55:02 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 01:37:47 -0400
>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:24:21 -0700
>>Subject: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

<snip>

>Can you say how far you were from the l field?

117.39 Nutical Miles

Go to:  http://pollux.nss.nima.mil/calc/gcsail.html

1.- Input flight Sep 04 airplane GPS coordinates:

LAT  N 020 43' 4''
LONG W 090 30' 0''

Related video:

http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/CANTARELL_SEP_2004/campeche03_0001.wmv

2- Input AKAL-C coordinates:

LAT  N  19 23 57
LONG W 092 02 20

Image: http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/akal_jn1.jpg

3.- Airplane's heading was 249 degrees.
    Airplane's altitude 310000ft.

4.- Time 00:42 UTC ( 19:42 local time)  -6 hours DST

5.- Result:

Great Circle Distance:
117.39457581815384 nautical miles

Initial Course:
227.8955268939641 degrees true

6.- Airplane's angle difference:

Airplane heading 249
Az 227.89 = 21.1 degrees

OIL WELLS

NAMES            LATITUDE                 LONGITUDE

AKAL-J        19 deg 25min 41 sec N   92 deg 04 min 31 sec W
AKAL-C        19 deg 23min 57 sec N   92 deg 02 min 20 sec W
NOHOCH-A      19 deg 22min 06 sec N   92 deg 00 min 14 sec W







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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:38:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:57:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Sparks


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:37:17 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:52:06 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:38:53 -0300
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>Allan Hendry has shown up the shortcomings of this Battelle/USAF
>>report in "The UFO Handbook". But Stan never, repeat never,
>>mentions this critique.

>What was it someone said, "If the public don't know, don't tell
>them"?

This is the same Allan Hendry who in the same book The UFO
Handbook proved he literally does not know his azimuth from his
apex. He should have asked someone instead of pretending to
know.

Hendry had at least two Ph.D. astronomers he could have
consulted literally at hand (his own wife Elaine and J. Allen
Hynek himself) to straighten out his azimuth-elevation and other
scientific-technical confusions, but he obviously never did so.
That in itself is exceedingly strange. That these two
astronomers in his house and office never caught these howling
errors is believable, however, because his book is so poorly
organized (a number of sections are confusingly repeated in
different places in the book) - and boring - that it is a
difficult read, plus Hynek was not much into critical analysis
like that.

All the months he investigated UFO cases for CUFOS are rendered
highly questionable or largely nullified now because of Hendry's
utter confusion about azimuth and elevation angles, and no doubt
many other technical issues he was way in over his head about
and had no business lecturing others on in his greatly flawed
book (I have pointed out a number of other howlers in his
"analysis" of IFO's and UFO's years ago where he tries to claim,
contra Battelle, that the UFO's are just like the IFO's, where
he didn't know what the hell he was talking about and got a
number of things confused and mixed up, or tried to force-fit
IFO and UFO categories to look "the same").

What?? No discussion of the strongest multiple-
witness/triangulated UFO visual cases on record, which I
previously posted on this thread, such as:


World renowned astronomer and meteoriticist Lincoln LaPaz, July
10, 1947 (4 witnesses 200 ft object maneuvering at up to 1,400
mph in and out of cloud bank at known distance).

World's leading aircraft designers and Cal Tech aerodynamicist
in the Kelly Johnson-Lockheed triangulation case of Dec 16, 1953
(7+ air-ground witnesses, 200 ft hovering object suddenly
accelerating to 25,000 mph into space).

Top Pentagon R&D official's Oct 7, 1958, triangulated
observation (2+ air-ground witnesses, 500 ft hovering object
suddenly accelerating to 36,000 mph into space)??


I could add many other cases like these.

You have lots of comments about other old cases such as Arnold
and Chiles-Whitted in 1947 and 1948 respectively (both
spectacular meteor fireballs as Klass correctly argues and in
Arnold's case he was the first to discover back in 1993). But
you are strangely quiet now on LaPaz, Kelly Johnson and Townsend
(Pentagon R&D). You can't say they were nutballs or esoteric
religious cranks or poorly educated Brazilian sailors anchored
off a remote island. They were the _world's_leading_experts_ on
astronomy, meteoritics, aircraft design, aerodynamics, visual
observations, experimental test piloting of advanced aircraft,
with inside knowledge of leading edge advanced R&D aircraft and
missile designs in classified projects (or were personally
involved in such projects such as Kelly Johnson's now famous
ultrasecret CIA U-2). You could not possibly pick out a better
set of UFO observers, as these are the best possible UFO
observers one could ever conceive of. If you dispute that then
name any better top world experts to be witnesses!


Brad Sparks







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   Sep > Sep 11

             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:24:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:59:29 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:14:05 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:56:24 +0100
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:10:14 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>I guess I don't follow the reasoning here. Maybe it would make
>>>sense if UFOs were crashing everywhere and constitute a public-
>>>safety problem. I see no reason to believe that, unless John
>>>knows something I don't. If the crash of an ET spacecraft,
>>>Roswell has proved over time to be an exceedingly rare event.

>>But of course, if the Roswell crash had been that of an
>>extraterrestrial craft, the government at the time would not
>>know how rare such events would turn out to be (although there
>>are plenty of people around here who don't seem to think such
>>crashes are at all rare). The US government could not be sure
>>whether or not the USSR had been in contact with a similar craft
>>and its crew

>Well, yeah. But under the circumstances obtaining in the early
>Cold War, no imaginable government on earth would _not_ have
>kept a crashed spacecraft a deep secret. It would simply hope
>that its enemies didn't have access to the same material. More
>than that, it would use its intelligence facilities to find out
>if the Soviets (or whoever) were keeping their own comparable
>secrets.

So it wouldn't have been much of a secret then, would it?
Presumably the Soviet's intelligence facilities would have told
them about strange events at Roswell. The clue, of course would
be in the bit you snipped from my previous reply (as always):
the disappearance from the academic scene of a great number of
American scientists and technicians in a wide range of
disciplines. This is, after all, how the US government
determined that the Soviets were developing their own nuclear
weapons in the 1940s.

>The Roswell event, whatever it was about, remains an intriguing
>historical mystery. Far from closed, the case looks more
>puzzling than ever. Documents that have yet to come to light
>will presumably tell us - or our children and grandchildren -
> what lies behind the veil.

You have some evidence for the existence of these documents,
have you? Or is it just wishful thinking and 'instinct'?

>Every instinct tells me (though I'd
>be pleased to be wrong) that this will not happen in the
>lifetimes of at least us more grizzled ufologists.

>One has to ask, if the incident was as trivial as the official
>version has it, why - even after decades - we don't have a clear
>picture of what occurred?  (Speculations such as the Air Force
>advanced are not a "clear picture," just another theory which
>depends on the centrality of convenient testimony and the deep-
>sixing of the inconvenient. Pretty much, in other words, in the
>manner of all Roswell discourse.) In the meantime, the confusion
>and ambiguity go on, and ufologists seem powerless to change
>that. As I've said a few times already, it's time to move on.

It may be just because the incident was so comparatively trivial
that the details are unclear, that no great paper-trail was
created at the time, and once the initial story had blown over
the whole matter was forgotten until a few ufologists
resurrected it over thirty years later.

Any 'confusion and ambiguity' is limited to the small, frenetic
world of ufology and ufologists. In the larger world, the world
of historical events, nothing of great importance happened at
Roswell - certainly nothing involving unknown technology. From
your previous posting, advancing the 'course of history'
argument, it's clear that you agree with this, but once again
you just can't bring yourself to kill off a mystery, so we have
to await future disclosures from some unknown source at some
unknown time.

And don't you just hate it when politicians say "it's time to
move on"? It usually means they've lost the argument.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:14:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 17:42:46 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:24:01 +0100
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:14:05 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:56:24 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:10:14 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell


>So it wouldn't have been much of a secret then, would it?
>Presumably the Soviet's intelligence facilities would have told
>them about strange events at Roswell. The clue, of course would
>be in the bit you snipped from my previous reply (as always):
>the disappearance from the academic scene of a great number of
>American scientists and technicians in a wide range of
>disciplines. This is, after all, how the US government
>determined that the Soviets were developing their own nuclear
>weapons in the 1940s.

etc. etc. etc.

I will leave it to the rest of you to decide how much sense John
Rimmer is making.  I have said all I intend to say on the
subject, and Listfolk are free to judge which of us has the more
measured and defensible view.

Just so that John doesn't whine again that I've clipped out his
pearls of wisdom, those who are interested - and who don't know
it already - can easily find them in the Updates archive, where
they are preserved, in all their rhetorical glory, for
posterity.


Jerry Clark








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 12

                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:59:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:12:45 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:14:04 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:24:01 +0100
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:14:05 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:56:24 +0100
>>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:10:14 -0500
>>>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>So it wouldn't have been much of a secret then, would it?
>>Presumably the Soviet's intelligence facilities would have told
>>them about strange events at Roswell. The clue, of course would
>>be in the bit you snipped from my previous reply (as always):
>>the disappearance from the academic scene of a great number of
>>American scientists and technicians in a wide range of
>>disciplines. This is, after all, how the US government
>>determined that the Soviets were developing their own nuclear
>>weapons in the 1940s.

>etc. etc. etc.

>I will leave it to the rest of you to decide how much sense John
>Rimmer is making.  I have said all I intend to say on the
>subject, and Listfolk are free to judge which of us has the more
>measured and defensible view.

>Just so that John doesn't whine again that I've clipped out his
>pearls of wisdom, those who are interested - and who don't know
>it already - can easily find them in the Updates archive, where
>they are preserved, in all their rhetorical glory, for
>posterity.

From which they can etched onto gold painted tablets and
ensconced in the Pelicanist temple at CFI headquarters, along
with the relics and fetishes of Philip Klass.


alienview.nul
   www.AlienView.net









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   Sep > Sep 12

              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:31:55 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:20:17 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Hall


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:14:04 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:24:01 +0100
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>I will leave it to the rest of you to decide how much sense John
>Rimmer is making. I have said all I intend to say on the
>subject, and Listfolk are free to judge which of us has the more
>measured and defensible view.

>Just so that John doesn't whine again that I've clipped out his
>pearls of wisdom, those who are interested - and who don't know
>it already - can easily find them in the UpDates archive, where
>they are preserved, in all their rhetorical glory, for
>posterity.

Jerry,

I am totally convinced that we ET hypothesizers (a.k.a., UFO
believers), when we try to communicate with Rimmer et al.
skeptics, skeptibunkers, pelicans, scoffers (whatever label they
prefer) are talking past each other. It is clear beyond a
shadow of a doubt that they assume (conclude, believe) that
there are no truly anomaloius UFO sightings; all can be
attrubuted to mistaken observations.

In the past, I have labeled this the Deluded Observer Hypothesis
(conveniently reduced to the acronym DOH, pronounced Duh or
Doh!). Given their mindset, it apparently is impossible for them
to get past the idea that anyone who disagrees with the DOH must
be (a) crazy, (b) mercenary, (c) dishonest, (d)..... They
inevitably focus on known cases of misidentification and project
from that to zero real evidence of "truly anomalous" events. The
very terminology sets their teeth on edge.

We wonder why they are so cock-sure that everythng reported can
honestly and convincingly be placed into conventional
pigeonholes. They seem to be outraged by the very claim that
unexplained things are being seen (patterned, consistent,
well-documented observations). We are totally puzzled by their
notion that there cannot be unexplained things; that apparently
is unacceptable in their worldview.

We keep pointing out that the ET answer is purely hypothetical
and readily admit that it does not have irrefutable proof. We
don't claim to know the ultimate truth, instead arguing that
there is a lot of suggestive evidence that is not being properly
investigated, and the ET answer (broadly defined) is certainly
an open possibility. They implicitly claim to know the ultimate
truth: all UFO reports can be explained as mundane or prosaic
phenomena misinterpreted by the witnesses.

I would be very interested to hear from the DOH believers as to
how I have misrepresented or unfairly presented their viewpoint.
My conviction is that they are sincerely but sadly mistaken, but
in their cock-suredness they seem unable to assume the same for
us.


 - Dick









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 12

             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:15:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:23:44 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:56:24 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:10:14 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 21:24:42 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>>My political problem with Roswell has nothing to do with the to
>>- me unconvincing argument that such a secret couldn't be kept,
>>at least in the sense John seems to mean. <snip> Rather, it's
>>that nothing on all sorts of levels of official policy, not to
>>mention post- World War II history, strikes me as plausibly
>>consistent with the hypothesis of a crashed ET spacecraft and
>>access to its extraordinary secrets.

I discovered the top secret Roswell policy of the then AAF by
sheer accident while researching a completely different non-UFO
historical subject. The policy was initiated in extreme secrecy
on about August 1, 1947, and lasted about two years after the
threat being defended against never materialized. It was
apparently not the result of any crashed ET spacecraft or alien
corpses or machinery being found at Roswell, but something of
sufficiently disturbing importance as to trigger radical efforts
to meet the military threat thought to come from deep space.

So the AAF/AF _thought_ there was such a threat from space, but
it was a _thought_, a tentative conclusion, which was soon
thrown out, and evidently was a source of deep embarrassment, a
debacle, a scandal, which the AF did not want to have publicly
exposed. A crucial interagency jurisdictional dispute had arisen
immediately after Roswell came to light, resulting in the AF
losing direct control of the Roswell site investigation, but
remaining on the sidelines in charge of developing the military
response (functions that were highly compartmented for security
reasons and not normally shared between these hostile competing
agencies anyway). The agency that analyzed the residue was
evidently unable to make any sense of it and buried the matter,
much like the Brazilian Ubatuba magnesium which is
unexplainable, makes no sense, yet is not clearly ET in origin
either, a mystery easily buried.

Then a new policy of covering it all up was instituted as a
counterintelligence psych war project in 1949, because the AF
was deeply worried that Donald Keyhoe might have uncovered the
Roswell secret in his wide-ranging UFO investigations for True
magazine. Keyhoe had not uncovered the Roswell secret but the AF
had no way of being sure of that (e.g., Keyhoe had uncovered the
"green fireballs" story but said later he had withheld it from
his True article because of security concerns). Nor did the AF
have any way of knowing that Keyhoe might not uncover Roswell in
the very near future, for all the AF knew Keyhoe might have been
hot on the trail of Roswell, given that he was the country's
leading reporter working on the UFO subject at that time, and
that was something the AF _did_ know (that Keyhoe was the
leading UFO journalist).

Roswell crashed saucer/alien body stories were floated to
discredit Keyhoe in advance of any disclosure he might make and
to cause him trouble in the meantime. It remains a question
whether these Roswell stories that were floated were completely
false or whether they were partially true and too much fact
about Roswell leaked out with the fiction in the AF's hasty and
panicky effort to blunt Keyhoe. My preference is that the
Roswell stories leaked to discredit Keyhoe were almost
completely false, but I admit I cannot be sure of that at this
point. More investigation is required and is time-consuming and
slow because of lack of resources, and difficult because of
stonewalling by the government agencies involved, as well as
because of the passage of time (50+ years now).

>>I think it's hard to dispute that events in the world over the
>>past six decades give us no reason to suspect that they were in
>>any way influenced by a crashed UFO and all that would follow
>>(such as, just to start with, breakthroughs in aviation and
>>weapons technology) from it. In other words, the reality of ET
>>wreckage and technology is not discernible by inference from
>>other developments. I suppose that a Roswell proponent could
>>argue that the material was so advanced that even now scientists
>>and engineers studying it remain baffled by it. Maybe, but it's
>>hard for me to believe that after all this time our scientific
>>understanding remains _that_ primitive.

>Here I am in total agreement with Jerry, and this is an issue
>which Peter Brookesmith has discussed recently in Magonia. The
>main argumant against Roswell is historical. We would be living
>in a very different world if Roswell had happened as it
>proponents believe.

Well Roswell didn't happen as proponents or as skeptics believe.
Neither side really wants to know - at best they make lip
service demands for turning over signed confessions and such
that do not exist and they know damned well could not reasonably
exist. I cannot get my work published because neither pro-UFO or
anti-UFO wants it to see the light of day and I am unwilling to
piecemeal several hundred pages of book manuscript material into
hundreds and hundreds of UFO UpDates postings or whatever.

As I said above, Roswell was hot with the AAF/AF for about two
years, the top secret policy initiative collapsed when the
military threat never materialized, and a policy of covering up
the whole thing ensued. No breakthroughs in technology, no
"different world" resulted from that brief postwar period of
perceived (or some could say "imagined") military threat. We
already knew that the AAF/AF briefly believed UFO's were ET in
the postwar era and that fact did not result in a "different
world" or in any breakthroughs in technology. So this top secret
Roswell military policy reaction is a new spin on an old story,
illuminating why and how that early ET conclusion came about, at
least in part.

And we already knew that in late 1948 and 1949 the AF attitude
gradually turned chilly towards UFO's. So this new light on a
top secret military response to Roswell that turned sour in 1948
helps explain that already known historical fact about the
developing anti-UFO hostility in the AF in that early time
period.

>Apart from anything else, the number of >scientists in a vast
range of disciplines who would be plunged >into full-time
analysis of the wreckage, the propulsion systems, >the
materials, the biological remains, would soon become obvious
>within the academic world any beyond. Everyone from nuclear
>scientists to linguists would be involved.

Not if Roswell happened as I have been finding, an anomaly in
the desert, scorch marks with no wreckage, no bodies, no
machinery. Extraterrestrial but ambiguous as to whether
meteoritic "extraterrestrial" or moon-based / alien
"extraterrestrial."

Ubatuba gives us a good historical analogy. Suppose a little
piece of Ubatuba magnesium metal had been found at Roswell (I'm
not saying it was, this is just a "thought experiment" as
Einstein liked to say). Suppose a scientist at a secret agency
who had spent time analyzing the metal had the sudden urge to
take it upon himself to ruin his career by leaking it to the
world through the news media. What could he say? Let's imagine
an interview dialogue between the scientist and the reporter:

Scientist: I have a tremendous discovery to announce. I
_believe_ I have found a piece of a spaceship from another
planet!

Reporter: How do you _know_ this?? Do you have a spaceship in
your lab?? What does it look like?

Scientist: Well, no I don't have a spaceship in my lab, it's
just a piece of metal the size of your thumbnail.

Reporter (visibly disappointed): Well, what is it made of?

Scientist: It's made of magnesium and a few other things.

Reporter: How does that prove it came from outer space? Is it
something that could be manufactured here on earth?? Did you see
the spaceship crash?

Scientist: Uh, no I didn't see the ship crash. But I don't
_believe_ it was made here on earth.

Reporter: How do you know anything crashed? When and where did
it happen?

Scientist: I don't know because the military is keeping it under
tight wraps and our agency does not cooperate much with the
military anyway. I don't know where or when it was found or when
it must have crashed because no one will tell me that, I don't
have security clearance or need-to-know apparently. It must have
been recently I think. Somebody above me in my agency may know
all that.

Reporter: So you don't know of any eyewitnesses to a crash of a
spaceship or anything about where and when it allegedly
occurred?

Scientist: No I don't. But I have - or had - the piece of metal!

Reporter: Does the metal say where it came from? Does it have a
label on it of some kind? How do you know it came from outer
space? Is it part of a machine?

Scientist: Uh, no label or writing on it, no working parts of
any machinery. But the magnesium has strontium and barium in it!

Reporter (looking clearly confused): Does strontium and barium
only come from outer space or can you find them on earth??

Scientist: Well they are found in abundance on earth but no one
I know ever puts strontium or barium into very pure almost 100%
pure magnesium metal!

Reporter: Is this something you could produce in your lab?

Scientist (sounding a little desperate): Well, yes, but that
isn't the point! ...I would stake my reputation on this!

Reporter: Dr. So-and-So do you have any photos or lab reports to
back up your allegations and why hasn't your agency publicly
revealed this story if it is as you claim?

Scientist: All the lab reports and photos are locked up in my
lab under tight security! They are highly classified and I can't
take those out or I'd be arrested. I have no idea why this
hasn't been announced to the public. They don't confide policy
matters with me. I'm just a lab scientist. But I would stake my
reputation on what I found!

Reporter: Do your lab reports say this metal came from another
world?

Scientist: Well, no, it's just a bunch of numbers in the lab
reports. We were told not to speculate or draw conclusions, and
only discuss conclusions with superiors verbally, not with co-
 workers at all under any circumstances, for security reasons,
as you can well imagine. But the conclusions are obvious!

Reporter: Obvious to you anyway. But all your proof is
conveniently locked up under tight security, you say, and it's
all just your word, your reputation, no witnesses, you don't
even know where on earth this alleged metal was found. And as
for your "reputation" I checked with your agency and they say
you were fired months ago for mental instability and a drinking
problem, that you were only a technician not a full-fledged
"scientist."

Scientist: That's not true! I was just in my lab yesterday. I am
the Branch Chief! I was never fired!

Reporter: Dr. So-and-So you will have to take that up with your
agency, or former employer. Do you have any evidence to back up
your wild story? Any proof of what you say, any proof that some
alien metal even exists or where it came from?

Scientist: It's all in my lab! Please believe me! I am not
mentally unstable and I never drink, ask my wife!

Reporter: Doctor, is it true that you are separated from your
wife and that she has filed for a divorce? I am a reporter and I
have to check out the facts very carefully before I publish
especially when the story is as sensational as this and seems to
depend solely on your word and reputation alone. So your
reputation is crucial and from where I'm at it looks rather
tarnished to me. Your agency won't back your story and claims
you became a bit deranged.

Scientist: I am telling you the truth I swear!!! The agency is
lying!

Reporter: So you admit the agency does not support you?

Scientist: You are twisting my words! Ask my wife she will
support me even though we are having some difficulties right
now.

Reporter: Has your wife seen the alleged metal?

Scientist: Of course not! It's highly classified, I cannot even
discuss it with her. It's not "alleged" metal, it really exists!
I had it in my hands, please believe me.

Reporter: So your wife knows nothing about the purported space
metal?

Scientist: (Sputters) B-b-b-b-u-t-t-t-t.....

Reporter: I have to get onto other matters, Doctor, thank you
for your time.

Scientist: But... but... what about my story???

Reporter: What story? Without proof there is no "story," sorry.

Obviously no scientist in his right mind is going to wreck his
career on a lark, to reveal highly classified information about
something that makes no sense and is confusing, a mystery. A
Ubatuba-like little piece of metal can be studied and studied to
death (as Ubatuba magnesium has been for almost 50 years) and it
still proves absolutely nothing, even though still technically
unexplained. And here if there were merely some anomalous burn
residues in the desert at Roswell that could be explained maybe
with some difficulty as a highly unusual meteorite phenomenon,
it would be even less substantial than what I portrayed in the
Scientist-Reporter Dialogue (above).

>I would go further, and say that this broad historical argument
>indicates that there has been no contact of any kind between
>earth-bound governments and any extraterrestrial intelligence,
>or even that any government has positive proof of the existence
>of ET. I am sure that for instance the whole history of the Cold
>War and US - USSR relations would be quite different if either
>power had been in contact with extraterrestrials.
<snip>

>I don't quite see how, having said what you said above, you can
>call yourself agnostic on the issue, as you have presented the
>prime argument against the conventional Roswell narrative. But
>be that as it may, as far as I'm concerned, case closed, thanks
>to Jerry.

Roswell is hardly "closed". But neither the pro-UFO community or
the anti-UFO skeptic-debunker community wants to hear about it,
because it doesn't support either side's simplistic pet
theories.


Brad Sparks








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   Sep > Sep 12

             Re: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 09-11-04

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 18:00:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:27:42 -0400
Subject: Re: HBCC UFO Recently Reported Sightings - 09-11-04


HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings

Newsletter Release: September 11 , 2004

Queens, New York Rounded Triangle With U.S. Markings

Date: 1993 or 1994
Time: Between 3:00 - 3:30 a.m.

I read one of your recent reported sightings and it reminded me
of something strange that happened. It was the sighting that
happened in the UK with the craft over the hospital. I read it
on Rense.com. Anyway about a week ago I was walking my dog about
3-3:30 in the morning and I didn't see nothing, but I heard
something. It sounded like something massive was passing
overhead but I couldn't see it. The strange thing though it was
a sound you had to focus your attention on. Reading about that
sighting reminded me of the incident. Another weird thing is
that on that same block 10 years ago I saw an anti gravity
craft. Well when I described it to someone with a site that's
what they said it was. I saw it very clear, it was about 40-50
feet up in the sky. Just a few feet above a 3 story building. It
was so visible that I could make out the writing on the side, it
said U.S. It was shaped like a rounded triangle and had rocket
type things on the bottom but it was flying sideways. I followed
it till I couldn't see it no more. It was loud too. Funny thing
I was the only outside at the time. It's weird because I live in
Queens, New York and it's not a quiet place. But I will admit it
really slows down at night almost dead-like. So this was
probably in 1993 or 1994. Can't recall the exact date. The time
was between 9 and 10 pm.

Well that's all I can remember right now. If you have any
questions feel free to me.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

=93Weird=94 Photo - Beam Of Light And Possible Figure ?

Newspaper article and photo.
http://www.prrecordgazette.com/story.php?id=3D116160

Also story and additional location pictures can be found at my
website:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1834

HBCC UFO Research Note: I became aware of this story due to the
kindness of one of the residence from the area who passed the
story along to me. Also he ran out and took the below four
pictures of the area where the beam of light was filmed. I would
like to extend my many thanks to the fellow for doing this.

Also after I received the story I immediately called the
newspaper to enquire about the story. I left my contact
information with the paper in hopes the reporter who wrote the
story would contact me. He did not 15 minutes or so after I left
a message. The reporter and I had a nice conversation about the
article. He confirmed that he did go to the Photo Lab where the
picture was developed and they folks at the photo lab told him
that the picture was not tampered with, and not the product
double exposure or of any technical defect that they could think
of.

Note from fellow who took location pictures for me: Just came
back from the site here are some reference pics the building
that at the time of the pic was not there it was just breaking
ground is the Kingdom Hall Jehovah's Witness.

-----------------------

Vernon in Connecticut Flickering Lights

Date: 2004 (continuing)
Time: After dark.

Message: Hi. I don't know if this means anything to you or not,
but we didn't know who else to contact with regard to what we've
seen lately. Over the past year we have seen strange flickering
lights over Vernon in Connecticut. They seems to vary in number
depending on the clarity of the night sky. However, they remain
in a symmetrical pattern at different heights. Over a period of
hours they move gradually higher and higher until they can no
longer be seen. They only appear on clear nights when most stars
are clearly visible. After watching them for a period of hours
my husband and I have noted them moving higher and higher until
no longer visible. They kind of sway like in a hovering motion.
Initially we thought they were helicopters but they made no
sound. There is a direct flight path on the route that they take
up and it appears that when a plane enters their line of sight
that that move quicker in altitude as if to get out of the way.
Have you heard of any other such sightings and how can this be
explained in a logical fashion as we're really quite scared.
Please get back to us if you've heard of anything similar.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Phoenix, Arizona Night Orbs And Large Triangle

Date: April 2004 (continuing)
Time: 2:55 a.m. - (Triangle)  3:53 a.m. - (Bright Night Orb)

Hey Brian! How are you today? Hope all is doing well.

When I first talked to you in June I told you about the night
orbs and the big triangle I recorded. I just realized that you
never saw it! I am sending you these two clips that are awesome.

The first clip is the big triangle. I was out in the morning
hours walking my dog as I have been doing for weeks. Since April
of this year I have been recording these lights in the sky on a
regular basis but this night was special.

I usually get single orbs that look like stars but disappear and
re-appear anywhere in the sky and move in straight lines. Some
are brighter than others, some flash, some fast and some slow.
This night was different.

At first I thought I was seeing things but since I recorded it I
couldn't have been. I thought for the first time I was getting 2
orbs at once but it was actually 3 in a triangular formation. It
came from the South and was moving about 20-30 mph(guess).
Altitude is unknown because it looked like 3 stars in a
triangular formation so it was hard to tell. It was heading
right for me and than veered to the East.

The sighting lasted just over 5 minutes until I lost it in the
clouds some 15 miles away. The funny thing about this was that
during the recording I thought there were only 2 orbs so most of
the video shows the 2 lights in the front but since I panned
back a few times to show the object passing by the stars I
noticed that there were 3 lights in a triangular formation.
That's the clip I am sending you.

The other clip is a bright orb captured around the same time but
the night after. I captured over 30 or more of these single orbs
but this one is the brightest. Also on the night that I taped
this single bright orb I captured 7 of them in one half hour!
Coming from all directions all different speeds. Pretty cool.

I hope you enjoy the clips and give my best to all, Thanks
again,

Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.

Video clip and pictures are =A92004RichG.

Video clip #1 Night Triangle Phoenix, Arizona 3.00mbs
Video clip #2 Bright Night Orb Phoenix, Arizona 3.58mbs

To view video clips please visit:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1828

---------------------------

Phoenix, Arizona Sky Worm

Date: August 25, 2004 Time: 1:01 p.m.

Brian, I am sending you a clip of these worm-like objects I am
getting on tape lately. This is the first one I captured a few
weeks ago. They start out like this but eventually gain altitude
and turn into balls, weird.

I just want to let you know a few things about these worms in
the sky. For one, I thought it may be a kite but there is no
string. Second, it went directly over my house and stayed over
it for 20 minutes just moving a few feet here and there but
staying in the same general area over the house. Also I don't
know of any kites that turn into a ball and then head off
somewhere.

I just want to let you know a few things about these worms in
the sky. For one, I thought it may be a kite but there is no
string. Second, it went directly over my house and stayed over
it for 20 minutes just moving a few feet here and there but
staying in the same general area over the house. Also I don't
know of any kites that turn into a ball and then head off
somewhere.

For all I know I may be wrong. There may be a logical
explanation for this weird worm in the sky but I have several of
them on tape from different parts of the valley up to 45 miles
from my house. So it's not just over my house. I also noticed
that they are around when there are chemtrails present and we've
had them the past few days.

I thought it may be a plastic bag from a grocery store but I
followed one for almost 2 hours until I ran out of road. It
never raised in altitude (so it seemed) and when it slowed down
it looked like a worm on pavement. When it decided to move it
rolled up into a ball and went on its way. Like I said it did
this for at least 2 hours that I saw it. Stopping, moving,
stopping, moving. Very subtle, very hard to see if you don't
focus the right way. I mean, it's 108 degrees outside who wants
to be outside? Again, weird...

But all this stuff is weird and maybe someone can let us all
know what is actually up in our skies. I'll catch up with you
later.

Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.

Video clip and pictures are =A92004RichG.

Video clip Sky Worm Phoenix, Arizona 3.33mbs

To view the video clip:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1833

-------------------------
Phoenix, Arizona Object In Vicinity Of The Plane

Date: August 28, 2004
Time: 12:39 p.m.

Hi Brian,

I took this video about a week ago and forgot to send it to you
before I went out of town.

I spotted this object by accident. I was following an airplane
with my camera when I saw a light reflection in the vicinity of
the plane. I panned back and saw this object heading North at a
fast pace and I knew this was not a plane. It had no wings as
you can see and it was spinning. It must have been over 10k
ft.in altitude and speed is unknown. The winds that day were
West to East about 5-10mph but this object look silver metallic
and you can easily see it rotating so balloons are ruled out. It
was also moving very fast(much much faster than the breeze) and
on a straight path North.

There was no erratic behavior no right angle turns and no
stopping on dimes with this object. It just kept going on a
straight course North. I wish it was more but I think this is
still a good sighting.

Hope all is going well. Thank you Brian.

Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.

Video clip and pictures are =A92004RichG.

Video clip Extremely Bright Orb Phoenix, Arizona 2.08mbs

To view the video clip:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1813

-------------------------
Kodiak Island, Alaska Stationary Object Over Coast Guard Base

Date: September 8, 2004
Time: Between 2:00 -3:00 p.m.

Dear Brian, I'm here on Kodiak island, Alaska. Yesterday we went
river fishing for salmon nearby the Coast Guard base, COMSTA --
Communications Station--and I lay on my back in the warm weather
watching contrails from departing Anchorage jets flying SW
towards Hawaii or the Philippines (?). Anyway, I noticed the
SAME exact silvery dot maintaining a precise location in the sky
while the contrails drifted and the lower clouds scurried over
the mountain tops. I thought a weather balloon would drift, even
a short distance in mild weather (It was almost windless) but I
thought it peculiar anyway. It may well have been a weather
balloon. Still, it was in the contrails and out but never moved
anywhere across the sky. Too high for a tether too--!

Additional Information:

Dear Brian---As a sometimes reader of Rense.com and contributor,
I find myself questioning the chemtrails aspect. And having
watched the flight pattern of the Anchorage jets as they heading
SW over the island on that brilliantly sunny day (with a few low
clouds), it was then I noticed the "shiny dot." The late
afternoon sunlight reflected off it--Had to have been about 2-
3:00 p.m. and lasted about 2 hours. As I said, I was watching my
brother cast for silver salmon (he got his limit) while I
slapped at bugs. Reclining on the bank seemed to offer a respite
from the bug onslaught-lol. Anyway, I watched the silver dot
suspended there and it didn't move. Now the high altitude
contrails didn't blow away either but simply expanded and grew
thinner. The dot must have been quite high because it was
obscured but did NOT disappear within the contrails. If it was a
balloon though it would have floated even a little way and it
did NOT move one way or another. However, the contrails (3-4
jets passes at intervals of 8-10 minutes) did move, widening and
growing thinner, as contrails do. The dot was still visible in
the same place. Now, where we were fishing was at Buskin Lake
surrounded by antennae, which I believe are part of the COMSTA
Kodiak coast guard base. Here is what I found on google about
the lake and antennae. Website can be found at:
http://209.165.152.119/radios/commsta.html

I'm former USAF and my brother was US Marines. I didn't point
out the dot to him because he was enjoying himself and has bad
eyesight--lol---I had hoped the dot would zig and zag--always
wanted to see a UFO, so that is why I checked it from time to
time. When we left it was still there, 2 hours at least, in the
same spot. Even windless skies aren't without a trace of wind in
the upper levels, I don't believe, but it was hard to tell the
elevation. The few lower clouds were moving across the tops of
the mountains, as I noted.

Thank you very much to the witness for the excellent report.

-----------------------

Escondido, California Red And Green flashing Lights

Date: September 9, 2004
Time: 8:30 p.m.

Last night I saw another inexplicable light in the sky. I was on
the phone to my sister in Sacramento for about 90 minutes last
night. As you may recall, I live in Escondido, about 30 miles
north of San Diego. For part of the time I was on the phone, I
was sitting in a wicker chair on my balcony, which faces west. I
often see aircraft. There is a local airfield about 15 miles
west of here, and corporate and private aircraft are always
coming and going. I am a mile from our local hospital, and often
see medical helicopter flights quite close-up. Sheriff's
helicopters are also a common sight. In the late afternoon I
even see a fair number of hot-air balloons, several miles in the
distance.

Last night, as I was sitting on the balcony talking with my
sister, I became aware of a light which I first presumed was
Jupiter, and then I thought it was an aircraft because it
appeared to be flashing red and green lights. I didn't pay any
attention at first, until I suddenly realize that it was not
moving at all, simply hovering. It was high up, and too far away
to be heard even if it was an aircraft. I went inside and
grabbed my binoculars, and tried to bring it into focus as I
described to my sister what I was seeing. Through the binocs, it
seemed to be a cluster of lights, which irregularly flashed red
and green. I watched it for approximately ten minutes. This was
about 8:30 PM. Later on, I walked back into the apartment. After
hanging up, I walked back outside to look for the object. It was
gone, and I could see Jupiter in the approximate location where
the object had been.

There were a few high clouds, but the night was otherwise clear.
Was I seeing some atmospheric distortion of Jupiter? I simply
don't know. I do know that the red and green flashes were coming
from opposite sides of the object, which is why I initially
assumed it was an airplane. It did not move at all, the entire
time I was observing it. My binoculars are quite strong, but not
enough to get a fix on any structure. Just the flashing lights.
I have no idea what I was looking at, but I'm pretty sure it
wasn't Jupiter, as I see Jupiter nightly, and have never seen it
flashing lights before.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Sumner, Washington Short Blimp Like UFO

Date: September 10, 2004
Time: 9:22 a.m.

Hi Brian!! I'm so excited because I seen another UFO this
morning-September 10, 2004....I was on my way to work which is
about 10 minutes from my house. They just opened a road that
leads from Hwy 167 to 142nd Avenue East in Sumner, Washington. I
decided to try this new road and it was 9:22 a.m., I was happy
to see that this new road cut a few minutes when I put my
blinker on to turn right into our driveway. Suddenly I noticed a
white sort of long (maybe like a short blimp) object traveling
in the cloud stream...it was pretty white but made me wonder if
it were a plane but I couldn't see any wings on it but then that
really didn't mean much because sometimes its hard to tell if
objects have wings depending on the angle...anyhow, I'm watching
it and it's floating strangely and begins to descend just a
little but enough to tell me that it wasn't a plane. It stays in
the cloud stream and gets less white to where I can barely see
it against the cloud it was in. It heads to the ridge (I guess
East) of Lake Tapps where the 8th Street intersection is and it
gets real bright for about 3 seconds then dims down to a faint
spot, comes out of the clouds and gets bright again, now heading
South towards Sumner - it remains bright for maybe 2 seconds and
then dims down so dim that it's hard to see - looks like a faint
spot that almost isn't there and then it completely disappears!
I'm so glad I tried this new road today because if I would've
went the other way, I might not have seen it. Hope you are well
- Take care

Thank you to the witness for the interesting report.

-------------------

Phoenix, Arizona "Bag-Like" Object Turns Into Orb

Date: September 10, 2004
Time: 4:03 p.m.

Hey Chief! Today was weird. I am sending you 2 clips, both have
serious distortions on the video itself. A lot happened today
but when I played back the video it looks like the camera
vibrated vigorously and a black line appears at the top of the
video even though the camera was on the tripod and fairly still.

The first clip was of a "bag-like" object that somehow turns
into an orb. When I started to tape this first object it acted
like a worm in the sky. But after 15 minutes of this object
meandering in the sky it took the form of a ball-like object and
looked like all the other orbs I've taped. So now I am confused.
Or am I lead to believe that this is a bag but it is actually
something that takes the shape of a worm than changes back into
an orb to travel?

The clip shows the object moving to the left and back to its
starting position very fast. Now as this is about to happen the
shaking begins and the clip is almost impossible to see but if
you watch it over and over you can see the motion clearly. On
T.V. it's very obvious because the screen is big but on the
computer it's a little more difficult to see, but you can tell.

The second clip is of another worm-like object flipping over and
over and over and over and over, never stopping the flipping
motion even for a second! This went on the whole 20 minutes I
saw this. I align the camera so a tree branch is in view for a
reference and out of nowhere (where else?) another reflective
silver-metallic objects streaks right by it to the left side of
the object. (facing me)

Again the camera starts to vibrate and gets distorted when
another object appears. Luckily I was able to get this object
passing by because there were two more right after it but the
camera vibrated and you can't see them unless it's on a bigger
screen or T.V.

There were plenty of chemtrails today and I am starting to see a
pattern with these sightings and these weird worm-like objects
appearing by chemtrails. That's a whole other theory I don't
wish to get into right now. Crazy today.

Hope all is well,
Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.
Video clip and pictures are =A92004RichG.

Video clip #1 Sharp Turn Orb Phoenix, Arizona 2.96mbs
Video clip #2 Sharp Turn Orb Phoenix, Arizona 2.68mbs

Video clips can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1827

----------------------

Toronto, Ontario Over Clay Hills Caledon

Date: September 10, 2004
Time: 11:48 p.m.

It's 11;48 pm Fri. September 10, 2004. I've been out on my deck
looking in the east sky and there it is plan as can be, it's
giving off lights as bright and obvious as an airplane. But it's
not! It's a star ship. It's been moving closer and it's doing
the up and down and quick circular motions. I have seen it a
couple of times in the same location off and on for a week. Last
weekend my 75 year old mother saw the same thing on Friday night
but not Saturday. The stars were all still in the same location.
Anyway I'm located 1 hour northwest of Toronto Ont. I live 1/4
km. from what they call the bad lands or clay hills in Caledon.
I have a very good view from my backyard.

Hopefully someone else saw this tonight and can confirm. Thanks.

Additional Information:

This UFO was in the northeast sky, coming straight across to the
west sky directly above my head within a hour or so.

As I said it didn't take to long for it to get to my location as
it did little up and down back and forth movements along the
way,every once in a while it appeared to do a circular motion.
(that's when the lights are obvious), I watched it for almost
two hours.

=46rom a distance it almost looks like airplane light,but as it
gets closer you can see the difference. It doesn't flicker like
a star,it flashes, the lights appear to be going in a circular
motion, bright white light,red and green. It was quite high up,
But I imagine by that shape it was round or oval. I heard know
sound.

I do live around 26 km north of Pearson Int, Airport and there
is a small flying club just 6 km. south of me.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com HBCC UFO RESEARCH
Newsletter At:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 12

             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:33:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 19:20:09 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:14:04 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:24:01 +0100
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:10:14 -0500
>>>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>So it wouldn't have been much of a secret then, would it?
>>Presumably the Soviet's intelligence facilities would have told
>>them about strange events at Roswell. The clue, of course would
>>be in the bit you snipped from my previous reply (as always):
>>the disappearance from the academic scene of a great number of
>>American scientists and technicians in a wide range of
>>disciplines. This is, after all, how the US government
>>determined that the Soviets were developing their own nuclear
>>weapons in the 1940s.

>etc. etc. etc.

>I will leave it to the rest of you to decide how much sense John
>Rimmer is making.  I have said all I intend to say on the
>subject, and Listfolk are free to judge which of us has the more
>measured and defensible view.

>Just so that John doesn't whine again that I've clipped out his
>pearls of wisdom, those who are interested - and who don't know
>it already - can easily find them in the Updates archive, where
>they are preserved, in all their rhetorical glory, for
>posterity.

Thanks, Jerry. You've made my point for me.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 12

                        Re: Cattle Mutes - Stevenson

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 10:02:51 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 19:21:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes - Stevenson


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:17:51 -0400
>Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:30:26 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes

>>>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:15:09 +0100 (BST)
>>>Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes

><snip>

>>If black budget programs exist which provide for ET "projects"
>>on American citizens without their express knowledge and
>>acquiescence, I think another revolution might be indicated.
>>Surely this would rank above tea on the taxation without
>>representation scale.

><snip>

>If you want to see this spelled out in detail read the magnum
>opus by 'Victor Norgarde - Dr. John Brandenberg - "Morningstar
>Pass" (1st Books, 2003).

>If you can ignore the poor editing you will find an amazing
>story - fiction - which starts from the assumption of an
>agreement with aliens and plays out the consequences of that.

>The magnum opus is 711 pages long, so if you start reading we
>won't expect to see you on UpDates for a while.

Thanks Bruce, l too do like Sci Fi but is there a film? Films
are much better as they do not 'stick to' the relavent points
and take up less valuable time :-)


Kind wishes

Col
http://www.colsweb.com
PS. is there any Nooky in it?









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 12

              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:08:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 19:23:50 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Allan


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:58:44 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:01:42 +0100
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>>Do you believe that documents relating to the discovery of ETs
>>visiting planet earth (i.e. probably the greatest and most
>>important scientific discovery ever made) were simply put
>>through the shredding machine as if they were waste paper,
>>whilst the 'great secret' was, and still is, intact, and known
>>only to a select few?

>>Please answer this question, and not widen it into a general
>>discussion of what secrets US govt officials are capable of
>>keeping under wraps.

>Christopher,

>In other words, take the whole question out of any sort of
>necessary context. Nice try, but sorry, I wasn't born yesterday.
>In any event:

>This is precisely the sort of naive question that caused me to
>write in the first place. I confess that I fail to understand
>why you, a non-American without any observable understanding of
>how the U.S. government works its secrets, would wade into this
>discussion with confident pronouncements, using the absurd
>analogy of a grieving father's conspiracy theory as if you were
>actually scoring a point or even being coherent.

This 'grieving father' had a big grudge against The UK govt (for
other reasons) long before his son's death.

>The answer to your question is such an obvious one that I briefly
>considered not answering it because it is, frankly, too obtuse to
>merit a response. But I have decided to soldier on and provide it
>for you. Here it is:

>Of course not.

Good. We do agree after all!

>I take it we are to believe there are only two options: (a)
>turning documents over to a reporter or other official agency or
>(b) shredding them. Americans watching the current effort to
>retrieve documents about Bush's military record - a potentially
>explosive political issue - from a manifestly unwilling
>administration (which continually declares it's turned over
>everything, until somebody finds crucial documents that weren't)
>will see a ready example of how this works. And with the Bush
>military records, the document deficit continues even after all
>kinds of smart, well-connected people and trained journalists
>spend anywhere from months to years trying to uncover them -
>which (except for the GAO search and the Air Force's
>self-serving enterprise) they certainly haven't done with
>Roswell.

>This is not, as apparently you would have it, a defense of
>Roswell, the pros and cons of which can be debated on other,
>more cogent grounds. What I object to is your foolish insistence
>that records on vital matters - _especially_ vital matters -
>can't be hidden even from the most determined prying eyes.
>There are good reasons to question Roswell as ET-related event
>(I discussed one of them in a response yesterday to John
>Rimmer), but yours isn't one of them.


After a bit of circumlocution, you have in fact answered my
question.

Thanks Jerry. I shall now close the debate.


Christopher








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 12

             Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 10:33:30 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 19:27:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind - Friedman


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:52:06 +0100
>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:38:53 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 21:58:00 +0100
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:04:03 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>><snip>

>>>I haven't found any cases
>>>which seem inexplicable, except those for which the information
>>>is insufficient or unreliable. There have also been some very >
>>intriguing hoaxes and I find it amusing that so many ufologists
>>>are in denial about these stories being false, even when the
>>>evidence is compelling.

>>The above is truly an extraordinary claim and frankly nonsense.
>>The professonals at Battelle Memorial Institute who prepared
>>"Blue Book Special Report No. 14" (Copy available, but beware,
>>it is loaded with data) found that they had to label 689 of the
>>3201 cases (21.5%) they examined as UNKNOWN completely separate
>>and distinct from the 298 (9.3%) which they listed as
>>INSUFFICIENT INFORMATION.

>>Furthermore they did a quality evaluation of all the cases and
>>found that the better the quality of the case the MORE likely to
>>be listed as UNKNOWN. They must have had tough criteria because
>>only 9.6% were listed as EXCELLENT, yet 35.1% of them were
>>UNKNOWNS while only 18.3% of the 525 POOR cases and 15.6% of the
>>1298 Doubtful cases were listed as UNKNOWNS. A further 26.6% of
>>the 1070 Good cases were listed as UNKNOWNS. The better the
>>quality the more likely to be UNKNOWNS.

<snip>

>It is odd that Stan Friedman places so much reliance on this
>50-year old report (presumably because it is the only official
>report that gives the slightest support to his own beliefs).

>Stan has always insisted that it is on-the-spot investigations
>that count in ufology (i.e. get out of your armchairs, folks).

>The Battelle study was based on reports and investigations
>already done by the USAF. The researchers at Battelle did not
>personally investigate one single case. They did it all the chi-
>square tests 'from their armchairs'.

>But Stan still accepts their statistics.

>However, their conclusions disown their own statistics. How does
>Stan account for this volte-face?

>In some instances they even reversed the USAF solutions and
>decided cases were unknowns. And their 12 'good unknowns' are,
>quite frankly, garbage. (The USAF only lists 6 of these as
>unknowns).

>Allan Hendry has shown up the shortcomings of this Battelle/USAF
>report in "The UFO Handbook". But Stan never, repeat never,
>mentions this critique.

>[I have only just noticed John Harney's reply after writing
>the above].

When in industry I did read many report summaries and overviews
that were totally disconnected from the data in the reports. As
a physicist I choose data over summary, spin, overview ad
nauseum, any time. There were many things that bothered me about
BBSR14 when I first discovered a copy of the privately published
Leon Davidson edition at the U. of Calif. Berkeley Library in
about 1960.

No authors are given and no contractor noted.

The data is intentionally obscured. I had to dig out the info
from loads of tables, graphs and figures. For example, the crux
of the matter should have been the simple tables I show in my
lecture of categorization type and percentage in each category,
and quality evaluation as a % of all sightings and what fraction
of each quality grouping were UNKNOWNS, Insufficient Info,
etc.Once I did that, it became obvious that the Secretary of the
USAF lied in the press release which Davidson had included. He
said only 3% were UNKNOWNS and they would have been identified
as conventional phenomena or illusions if more complete
observational data were available. FALSE. 21.5% were
UNKNOWNS.There was a separate Category Insuff. Inf.

Furthermore what is particularly striking is that not only was
it true that the better the quality, the more LIKELY to be an
UNKNOWN,but the less likely to be listed as Insuf. Info. Also
the greater the duration of observation, the more likely to be
an UNKNOWN. The Chi-Square analysis, much as Hendry and Allan
don't like it, shows that the probability that the UNKNOWNS were
just missed KNOWNS was less than 1%.All of these factors are
exactly what one would expect if the UNKNOWNS were really
something different. A falsifiable hypothesis.Of course neither
the Press release nor the silly conclusions provide any of this
info.

CD chooses spin. I choose data.

Yes, the modelling was poor. Clearly the intent was to deceive.
I should add that, in the early 1960s, I made frequent visits to
both Battelle and FTD on a project on which I worked for Aerojet
General Nucleonics.

Battelle's connection with FTD was still classified at that
time. There were some very good people at both. My final report
was in 2 Volumes. One was unclassified and made no mention of
the highly classified 2nd volume. One of the key things missing
from BBSR 14 is any discussion of highly classified reports and
what whould be done to get more information, national security
and technological considerations, etc.. Two different people
quietly and independently told me of seeing such a TOP SECRET
report. Blue Book Report 13.I would like to see it.

General Bolender said reports of UFOs which could effect
national security are NOT part of the Blue Book system.So where
are they?

In Canada I had,under access to information, obtained a lot of
reports. One referenced by number a TS report from 1947 on with
lots of good cases. I requested it and was told all copies had
been destroyed. I sincerely doubt it.

For those who foolisly believe that classified reports would
either be released or shredded, I should note that destruction
of classified reports requires record keeping. Just letting it
remain is far easier and much more likely.Remember the 300,000
classified pages still at the Eisenhower Library.

It has been suggested that if saucers were real and wreckage in
the hands of the government ,there would have been loads of
academics rushing in to do research. NONSENSE. At GEANP in 1958
we were spending 100 Million dollars per year. Pratt Whitney was
also spending about $50 Million. We employed 3500 people of whom
1100 were engineers and scientists.We worked with Convair Ft.
Worth, Oak Ridge National Laboratories... no academics here. In
the early sixties Ling Temco Vought and Lawrence Livermore were
working on a Nuclear ramjet.. not in academia. Also in the 1960s
a number of nuclear fission rockets were ground tested by
Westinghouse Astronuclear Lab, Aerojet General, Los Alamos
National Lab... no academics here. I worked on Nuclear Fusion
rockets at Aerojet General Nucleonics... no academics here. A
few years ago I checked on the 3 nuclear weapons Labs LANL,
Livermore, Sandia. The first 2 are operated by the U. of
California system under contract. Each had a budget over a
billion dollars and each employed about 8000 people... roughly
30% professionals.The DCI admitted to a black budget in 1996 of
26.6 Billion$ that year. The U-2 and the SR 71 were developed by
Lockheed. The Stealth was also developed in industry. There is a
huge amount of money being spent on these classified R and D
programs... mostly in industry and not academia. The Stealth
work was kept secret for 10 years.The Navy Research Lab launched
the Corona elint satellite in 1960. First public mention in
1995.

Let's get real about who does what and how much money is
available and how little, if anything, is public information.


Stan Friedman








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   Sep > Sep 12

              Group Meets In Exeter To Discuss UFOs & Cultures

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:44:24 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 19:29:20 -0400
Subject: Group Meets In Exeter To Discuss UFOs & Cultures


"Official Explanation Blues"... Group Meets In Exeter To Discuss
UFOs & Cultures

Nice light hearted story on the challenges a group of experts
face while looking into the ETH.

http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/exeter/09102004/currents/36843.htm

What's funny is Dr. Thomas Hansen playing an original blues tune
entitled,

"The Official Explanation Blues"


Best,

Greg








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              "What The Bleep Do We Do Now?" Review - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:58:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 19:31:00 -0400
Subject: "What The Bleep Do We Do Now?" Review - Dickenson


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:44:50 EDT
>Subject: "What The Bleep Do We Do Now?" Review

>http://www.suntimes.com/output/ebert1/wkp-news-what10f.html

>The key thing in Ebert's review is whether he understood what
>was presented by the several scientists.

>Anyone here on the list see this flick yet? Did they get their
>physics right or did they fall to convention about the
>unconventional.


Hello Greg,

Haven't seen the flick but think Ebert got what they were
saying, which was "they don't understand it".

Reason? Assumptions, even by experts', can blind us to reality
(see "ueftigers" in Google)

Frinstance we assume matter (protonic) is permanent and energy
(photonic) is transient, whereas reality is almost other way
round - i.e. even oldest, most massive thing we could think of,
say the big pyramid at Giza, doesn't exist full-time. What
exists is its energy-field (electrons) and, every few multi-
 billionths of a second, the re-cleching of its matter into
"solidity".

If you could check quickly enough, most of the time it's not
there! And neither are we. But _something_ is there. That's not
just the electron-field; for that, and even a photon beam, is
also intermittently re-clenched, although they're more
"permanent" than matter.

To pursue Ebert's film analogy, lab results in quantum
experiments are like taking ten random frames from a ninety
minute film and claiming to "know" the plot.

Which is why _real_ experts (Feynman & modern others) don't
claim to have a quantum "theory", just a lot of quantum facts.
They know those facts can't describe the universe anymore than
ten random frames can describe a film.

Wouldn't ask you to accept any of the above on my say-so, check
with any _young_ nuclear / particle physicist - (tell her/him
we'll hold them accountable for their story).


Cheers

Ray


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






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   Sep > Sep 13

              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:53:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:39:34 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:31:55 +0000
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:14:04 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:24:01 +0100
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

Hi, Dick,

>I am totally convinced that we ET hypothesizers (a.k.a., UFO
>believers), when we try to communicate with Rimmer et al.
>skeptics, skeptibunkers, pelicans, scoffers (whatever label they
>prefer) are talking past each other. It is clear beyond a shadow
>of a doubt that they assume (conclude, believe) that there are
>no truly anomaloius UFO sightings; all can be attrubuted to
>mistaken observations.

>In the past, I have labeled this the Deluded Observer
>Hypothesis (conveniently reduced to the acronym DOH, pronounced
>Duh or Doh!). Given their mindset, it apparently is impossible
>for them to get past the idea that anyone who disagrees with the
>DOH must be (a) crazy, (b) mercenary, (c) dishonest, (d).....
>They inevitably focus on known cases of misidentification and
>project from that to zero real evidence of "truly anomalous"
>events. The very terminology sets their teeth on edge.

Well said as always. If we're going to call their favorite
doctrine "DOH", perhaps it's time to add a new word to the
vocabulary to characterize them. I propose that if we are to
bring DOH into ufological language, we ought to acknowledge
where that wonderful phrase comes from, giving all due credit to
that beloved mope Homer Simpson, who groans "doh!" whenever he's
screwed up, as he does every time. DOH advocates, therefore, are
"simpsonists."


Jerry Clark








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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:18:44 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:41:05 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:31:55 +0000
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:14:04 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>I will leave it to the rest of you to decide how much sense John
>>Rimmer is making. I have said all I intend to say on the
>>subject, and Listfolk are free to judge which of us has the more
>>measured and defensible view.

>>Just so that John doesn't whine again that I've clipped out his
>>pearls of wisdom, those who are interested - and who don't know
>>it already - can easily find them in the UpDates archive, where
>>they are preserved, in all their rhetorical glory, for
>>posterity.

>Jerry,

>I am totally convinced that we ET hypothesizers (a.k.a., UFO
>believers), when we try to communicate with Rimmer et al.
>skeptics, skeptibunkers, pelicans, scoffers (whatever label they
>prefer) are talking past each other. It is clear beyond a
>shadow of a doubt that they assume (conclude, believe) that
>there are no truly anomaloius UFO sightings; all can be
>attrubuted to mistaken observations.

I wonder whether Jerry would, in fact, define himself as an 'ET
hypothesizer' or a 'UFO believer', as whenever I have challenged
him on his - as I see it - perceived support for the ETH he has
vigorously denied any such belief, maintaining that unexplained
UFO reports are merely that - unexplained. No matter how often I
have tried to persuade him to admit that he does accept the ETH,
he has always indignantly rejected the allegation.

>In the past, I have labeled this the Deluded Observer Hypothesis
>(conveniently reduced to the acronym DOH, pronounced Duh or
>Doh!). Given their mindset, it apparently is impossible for them
>to get past the idea that anyone who disagrees with the DOH must
>be (a) crazy, (b) mercenary, (c) dishonest, (d)..... They
>inevitably focus on known cases of misidentification and project
>from that to zero real evidence of "truly anomalous" events. The
>very terminology sets their teeth on edge.

The "Deluded Observer Hypothesis" must also apply to people who
have misidentified conventional visual stilumli, but refuse to
accept this fact, no matter how clearly it is demonstrated to
them - but I doubt that this is what Mr Hall means.

Incidently, my suggestion for (d) - and in my view tho most
likely explantion - is "must prefer an intriguing mystery to any
mundane explanation, however convincing"

>We wonder why they are so cock-sure that everythng reported can
>honestly and convincingly be placed into conventional
>pigeonholes. They seem to be outraged by the very claim that
>unexplained things are being seen (patterned, consistent,
>well-documented observations). We are totally puzzled by their
>notion that there cannot be unexplained things; that apparently
>is unacceptable in their worldview.

I have in the past pointed out a number of UFO incidents which I
do not feel have been adequately explained. I think that in many
cases this is due to the fact that we do not have all the
relevant information about thse events, but that does not mean
that they are not, in themselves, puzzling. I do however find it
hard to accept that some iconic cases, which seem to have been
adequately explained, are not accepted as such by ufologists who
prefer mystery to explanation.

>We keep pointing out that the ET answer is purely hypothetical
>and readily admit that it does not have irrefutable proof. We
>don't claim to know the ultimate truth, instead arguing that
>there is a lot of suggestive evidence that is not being properly
>investigated, and the ET answer (broadly defined) is certainly
>an open possibility. They implicitly claim to know the ultimate
>truth: all UFO reports can be explained as mundane or prosaic
>phenomena misinterpreted by the witnesses.

>I would be very interested to hear from the DOH believers as to
>how I have misrepresented or unfairly presented their viewpoint.
>My conviction is that they are sincerely but sadly mistaken, but
>in their cock-suredness they seem unable to assume the same for
>us.

Perhaps one way of ensuring that sceptical ufologists (other
than John Harney and myself) would enter into such a debate
would be by refraining from using childish epithets such as
"DOH" (we see The Simpsons in the UK too, you know, so we
understand the implied insult), 'Pelicanist', 'scoffers' and, my
least favourite, 'skeptibunkers'.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:28:58 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:42:12 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:59:42 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:14:04 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>I will leave it to the rest of you to decide how much sense John
>>Rimmer is making.  I have said all I intend to say on the
>>subject, and Listfolk are free to judge which of us has the more
>>measured and defensible view.

>>Just so that John doesn't whine again that I've clipped out his
>>pearls of wisdom, those who are interested - and who don't know
>>it already - can easily find them in the Updates archive, where
>>they are preserved, in all their rhetorical glory, for
>>posterity.

>From which they can etched onto gold painted tablets and
>ensconced in the Pelicanist temple at CFI headquarters, along
>with the relics and fetishes of Philip Klass.

Jerry, are you happy being the straight-man feed for Alfred's
witty, Wildean apercus?


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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   Sep > Sep 13

               Pre-Analysis Report Of Ed Gerhman's Crash Site

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:39:53 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:47:27 -0400
Subject: Pre-Analysis Report Of Ed Gerhman's Crash Site


Fellow Listarians,

Report of Pre-Investigation of Ed Gerhman's Alleged Crash Site

As stated in a post last last Spring, I have completed an
informal observation of the crash site of an alleged UFO, as
located by Ed Gerhman.

Specimens and photos were taken of and from this location
and will be examined further.

The area, as Ed has described it, in many posts to UFO
Updates, is extremely interesting. Ed's description of the
site has not, in my opinion, been overstated.

In the future, once I have the test results from the
collected specimens (if feasible), I will give my full
opinion as to the site and Ed's research.

Please know and understand that I have no position statement on
the validity of the alien autopsy film and the controversy
surrounding it. My focus is solely an historical perspective on
the site as described by the cameraman and located by Ed.


Respectfully,

Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com








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               HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings -

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:23:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:51:28 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings -


HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings

Newsletter Release: September 12, 2004


Marine on St. Croix, Minnesota Black Triangle Sighting

Date:  Summer of 1997
Time:  Evening

Dear Brian:  Since someone reported a 1993-4 sighting I thought
I should chime in with my Black Triangle sighting in the summer
of 1997, in Marine on St. Croix, Minnesota, a town 15 miles
north of Stillwater in the St. Croix River Valley bordering
Wisconsin, about 50 miles northeast of the Twin Cities.

My sister and I happened to be watching the X-Files without any
big hoopla.  The show ended she wandered over to the sliding
door out onto the deck and said, "See there are those lights
that I've seen before."  She had told me about multi-colored
spheres doing formations unexplainable by conventional
technology which she had seen in the river valley a little north
and also earlier in Taos, New Mexico.  She was bored and went
inside.

I kept on observing these "plasma spheres" on the horizon to the
east and spent maybe 10 minutes comparing them to possible
explanations so I could potentially rule out what I was
observing.  Different colored lights were hovering, making 90
degree directional changes both vertically and horizontally.

Then I realized something was slowly heading right towards me
from the horizon, probably 10 miles away.  I waited and a large,
flat black triangle slowly flew right over our yard, right above
the tree-line.  I was not familiar with the black triangle
sightings at this time but my immediate reaction was that it
must be some secret military craft.

The object was so close I could have hit it with a rock and it
flew very slowly while only making a slight humming sound.  I
didn't dare look away.  There were lights on each its corners
and the black triangle slowly passed maybe 100 feet over the
roof of our house and continued on across the river valley.

My parents use to operate the local legal (removed) for the
surrounding towns and one of their workers had brought in a
binder of clippings from the UFO flap in the area during the
1970s.  There were large round UFOs right in the paper and a
cattleman had moved away because of mutilation to his cattle on
his land adjacent to a federal wildlife reserve.  Also that area
is a military flight test area.

My dad, also in summer 1997, saw a UFO -- he said it was "bigger
than the moon and had lights all around the center of it."  He
couldn't figure out what it was so I told him that was a U.F.O.
and he refused to accept that term since he's a rationalist --
 but he was listening to Art Bell at the time as well.

It wasn't until I came across other descriptions of Black
Triangle Sightings on Rense.com a few years ago that I realized
I had experienced the exact same phenomenon as many others.  My
book reading further verified the extensive sightings elsewhere,
i.e. Belgium. But not till now have I reported the sighting, as
far as I can remember, and I didn't see my location marked on
the map in the recent Black Triangle report.

Thanks,

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Foxboro, Ontario Cloud Formation

Date:  August 31, 2004
Time:  9:10 p.m.

At 9:00 p.m. EST I went outside to let our house dogs out. I
decided since there were no mosquitoes evident to sit on the
front porch. It was a beautiful clear sky and the full moon
hadn't come up yet. I could see many stars above and since we do
not live in the city, the lights of the stars were clear. I
could see the glow of the lights of the city of Belleville to
the south of us.

At approx 9:10 p.m. I noticed a strange orangey object on the
Western horizon above the hill to the northwest of us. I called
my husband out to see this as this object was moving towards our
house and it was bigger than any plane I have seen. He came out
and viewed the object in the sky. Then went inside to get his
binoculars. When he came out and viewed the object with the
binoculars he noticed its unusual shape. "I determined that it
was shaped like a snow angel with a pointed head, that is it was
an elongated object with four fan-like projections at its sides.

The pointed head had a blinking light. As it approached its
color changed to white." We then called our son out to view this
object in the sky. He confirmed the same shape that we had both
observed. It was moving from west to east and heading right over
our house. All three of us viewed this object coming towards the
house and its shape and size. It seemed to be a glowing cloud
with a flashing light. The 'angel' shape was glowing and you
could see stars through it. However at the 'pointed' end you
could not see stars through it.

We also noted 5-6 aircraft all heading the same direction around
the object. Some did appear to be circling the object. The
object was considerably larger than any of these planes.
Approximately 9:15 p.m.-9:20 p.m., the objects light stopped
blinking. But, the cloud 'angel' continued to move towards our
house (easterly). At this point (approx 9:25 p.m.) Gordon went
back into the house. My son and I stayed out to watch this
object. It was now almost directly over the house. I had the
binoculars and watched as a bright circular orangey-yellow
object flew out of the cloud. This object was about the size of
1/4 of the full moon.

The object headed directly north at a much faster speed than the
cloud had been moving. The object appeared to be about 1/8 the
size of the full moon when it reached the stars that make up the
Big Dipper. It reached that position in the sky in about 30
seconds. The object then turned 90 degrees and headed back west.
It disappeared moments later. The cloud disappeared within 5
minutes of the object leaving it. All planes then seemed to have
left the vicinity when we looked for them again after the object
disappeared. All the ones we had observed around this object
that is. It should be noted here that at no time did we hear any
noise from this object. We could hear and see the planes, but,
not this other object in the sky. Note: It was moving laterally
to its length across the sky.

Additional Information:

Hello Brian,

We are going to check out the further info indicated in your
email today and tonight and will send a 2nd email regarding same
before the end of the weekend.

We are going to provide the report we did for NUFORC below as
well.  But, we wanted to clarify a few items regarding same.
 The report will appear with ___ above and below it.

Where we live in Foxboro, Ontario we are about 1.25 hours
driving time - 125km or so from the St. Lawrence Seaway on the
north end of Lake Ontario. We live about 7 or so miles north of
the city of Belleville (13 km).  All projected flight paths for
this rocket launch do not indicate that it went over eastern
Ontario.  If you look on a map you will see where we are.

The cloud formation did have a blinking light on it - as all the
reports said.  We have drawn pictures of the formation and also
of the object that came out of this formation, heading north and
then did a 90 degree turn west before disappearing.  We found a
picture of this object online recently.  It was EXACTLY what we
saw come out of the cloud that was over our house at the time.
 We can provide this picture we found upon request, we kept a
copy for our records.

The cloud being explained as the rocket expelling fuel we can
readily accept.  But, we do not feel what we saw a
'yellow/orange orb shaped object' coming out of the cloud could
have been the satellite or explained as part of the rocket
either.  The 'orb' pulled some of the cloud formation with it
and went north, then turned west 90 degrees almost adjacent to
one of the stars in the Big Dipper.  It was considerably larger
than the star it passed in the sky!  I can almost compare it to
the size of the harvest moon at some points during the fall.
 Except the moon wasn't up yet and rises to the east of our
house.  About 45 minutes after the object disappeared the moon
did rise and its color was very similar to the orb, but, it was
even bigger than the orb we saw that night.

The 'cloud' came in from the west over a low rise of a hill to
the north west of our home.  It came directly east and came over
the southeastern edge of our house as we watched it.  The
flashing lighted end was pointed directly south.  The 'object'
seemed to come from the southern end of the cloud and came
directly out of the middle of it heading north.  It flew at a
fast rate of speed to the north and turned west and was gone in
under 1 minute from leaving the cloud!  This was considerably
faster than any of the planes we saw overhead at the same time.

Below link are the witnesses drawings they made of what they saw
and they also gave location in the sky.

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1841

Additional Information Provided below By: Admin, SeeSat-L,
satobs.org

Mr. Brian Vike,  Director HBCC UFO Research Home

Dear Mr. Vike,

My guess is that, like NUFORC, you have received numerous
reports of a bright cloud seen over Eastern North America on
2004 Sep 01 at about 01 UTC (Aug 31 at 21 h EDT).

It was related to the launch of NROL-1 from Cape Canaveral, on
an Atlas 2AS rocket, a couple of hours earlier.

Spaceflight Now has the ground track, which crossed North
America.

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/atlas/ac167/040824track.html

The cloud visible over North America was the result of the
Centaur's venting of excess propellant.

The strobing light effect reported by some observers was caused
by the tumbling of the Centaur. Observers who had telescopes
observed both the Centaur, and the satellite, which was still
nearby, in a similar orbit.

Centaur propellant dumps have been seen many times over the
years, most often by satellite observers and astronomers, but
sometimes by the general public.

Last evening's propellant dump was particularly prominent,
because it occurred at a relatively low altitude, below about
10,000 km. Most commonly they occur at about 40,000 km, and even
then they are visible to the unaided eye, but not as long, and
not quite as spectacular.

I posted my observation report to SeeSat-L:
http://satobs.org/seesat/Aug-2004/0341.html

As have several other observers:

http://satobs.org/seesat/Aug-2004/0335.html
http://satobs.org/seesat/Aug-2004/0336.html

Ted Molczan
Admin, SeeSat-L, satobs.org

HBCC UFO Research would like to extend my many thanks to the
witnesses for there report and to Ted Molczan, Admin, SeeSat-L
for providing all the excellent information about this sighting.
Also I am looking into seeing if there might have been something
else witnessed around the area.

------------------------

Elgin, New Brunswick Lights Over Local Mountain

Date:  September 8, 2004
Time:  Approx: 1:30 a.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: ?

Full Description of event/sighting: I was looking out my large
2nd story bedroom window watching the stars when I saw several
 very slow moving mainly red and an occasional white flashing
light on some indiscernibly shaped object, silent, low
flying..just above the tree tops of the mountain just outside my
window. It moved along the tree line for approximately two
minutes then disappeared on the other side of the mountain,
reappeared flew the tree line again and repeated the pattern of
flight for maybe 4 or 5 minutes. Flying north west and
disappeared over mountain.The lights were flashing in a way that
I first thought of some sort of rescue mission. In the 4 or 5
minutes it only flew over about 1/3 of the mountain. I later saw
what I knew to be airplanes flying in a similar direction but
much higher, I could hear them and the lights didn't look
anything like what I had just witnessed earlier.

So who knows...I've never seen anything like it and for the
first time I'm visiting a UFO sighting web site.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Kaufman County Texas Unusual Bizarre Object

Date:  September 11, 2004
Time:  8:00 p.m.

Hi Brian

I was just getting ready to come in tonight when I saw this
light above in the tree. I had my camera in my pocket, on and
ready, and snapped one picture of it. Have no idea what it is,
didn't hear any sound from it and didn't see it move. When I
started to take another, it was just gone. It was about 8:00
p.m., sky was clear and I didn't see any other aircraft in the
vicinity, no wind. Thought you would like to see it. Later my
friend

Thank you to the witness for the report and pictures.

To view photos:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1835

----------------------

Phoenix, Arizona Barbell Object Returns

Date:  September 11, 2004
Time:  11:42 a.m.

Hi Brian,

I was out in the back yard saturday 9-11-04 at 11:42 a.m. When I
looked up to see the "barbell" UFO again. This time it looked
like it was morphing from cylinder to barbell to triangle
shaped.

I was able to video tape it for about 7 min. This time it was
moving from north to south in a clear blue sky. The wind was
blowing from east to west. There was a tree branch blowing in
the wind that was geting it the way, but I was still able to get
some good video of this thing.

It moved out of site as the tree was geting in the way. I was
able to get it on the 5x lens with about 70x power, (no digital)

What is going on over phoenix? Someone let me know if they saw
this thing too. This thing was weird.

Thanks Brian,

Video clips and pictures are c.2004 Jeff Willes
Video clips can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1836

-----------------------

Denver, Colorado Lights Moving On Of Cloud

Date:  September, week of 6th to 11th, 2004
Time:  9:00 p.m.

Other sightings the last few nights as I walk in the evening as
is my habit: Small cloud that I immediately thought was a "cloud
ship" as some call them, under a larger "cloud ship." Probably
about 9 PM that night maybe a week ago. A star like object,
flashing red, blue, and white moved out of the lower cloud and
straight up into the larger cloud. After several minutes 3
similar lights left the large cloud, one at a time and proceeded
in a south west direction, going I suppose a moderate speed.
Then the 2 clouds evaporated very quickly over a few minutes.

About 3 nights ago, saw red and green flashing object around
10:30 PM that moved very slowly in the North, much larger than a
star, about 1/4 inch in size. I watch it for several minutes,
and then it just poof, went out.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------------

Caledon, Ontario Object And Aura Around It

Date:  September 11, 2004
Time:  9:30 p.m.

I was at my friends a couple of km.'s south of my home last
night. From their backyard you could see the west sky quite
well, As I stood looking in the sky, I looked out of curiosity
to the east sky to see if there was any action going on in that
part of the sky, but not there.

Any ways as we sat down at the fire around 9:30 pm. I looked to
the west sky and there it was, I pointed it out to a couple of
people and they watched as it got brighter and gave off some
type of aura around it. It was zig zagging and doing circular
movements, it was above a tree in the distance and we watched it
drop below the tree line within 10 min. Even my friends are
starting to believe when they see things like this going on.
Some them made comments that it could be a starlight or
airplane, But of course I know what it was and there's still
people out there that have a hard time believing. (FEAR) maybe.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Denver, Colorado Huge Perfect Saucer

Date:  September 11, 2004
Time:  7:30 p.m.

About 7:30 PM last night (Sat.) I was leaving the store and
heading west out of the parking lot. There was a huge perfect
saucer, brilliantly lit (kind of light golden color) in the
western sky, about 15 degrees above the horizon. It was
beginning to get dusky and the sun has set and small clouds in
the area were dark gray in color. This saucer is several miles
away, but I can't see the mountains at this vantage point, so I
am unsure of distance. It was about 2 inches in length, the
height about 1/2 inch. Absolutely perfect shape, could not be a
cloud. It drifted very slowly south. I watched it as I could
while driving north, until the trees obscured it. I looked for
it after I reached the area I live in and could drive more
safely to look for it, but I could not find it again, I think
the trees, etc., blocked it. The traffic was too heavy to stay
in, and I did not think to pull off where I could watch in
safety. But this was fun. No flashing lights, etc., just
beautiful bright slightly golden glow.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Kaufman County Saucer And Plane Close To One Another

Date:  September 11, 2004
Time:  7:30 p.m.

Hi Brian

I was planning on sending this one also,but I was trying to
enhance it a  little so you can see it better.I didn't do a real
good job, but it's some better.Anyway it was about 7:30 p.m. on
09-11-04 when I saw this small plane coming toward me starting
to turn left.I took a couple pics of it,the first picture just
had the plane in it.The second one appears to have a saucer
above it to the right.I'm sending both pics to you with the
enhanced one also to see what you think.Same details as the
first one I sent except 30 minutes earlier. Check out the the
top right side of the picture also, looks like a orb too.

Thank you to the witness for the report.


Brian Vike

Director HBCC UFO
Research Home - Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com
HBCC UFO RESEARCH Newsletter At:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/










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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:27:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:56:04 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Colvin


-----

Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:35:24 EDT
From: KRohring.nul
  To: fortean1.nul
Subj: FWD (TLC-Brotherhood) Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell


To those who might be more than mildly interested in the
"Roswell Experience" of July 1947, there is a UFO Museum in an
old theater setting in Roswell. It has scads and scads of
"evidence" in varying forms, including machines where you can
push the button and actually hear a recording of a radio report
of the "event", as well as other audio testimony and plenty of
newspaper reports.

It's almost eerie to stand there in the midst of all the
reports, media info and so on, and to think that our government
"got caught" in a coverup, but those who caught them didn't have
the where with all to pursue the cover up. The few people that
confessed to friends or relatives were all transferred, or
discredited. The one military medical person female nurse who
"witnessed" alien bodies had a nervous breakdown and was
discredited.

The government initially reported an alien craft, then rescinded
that after calling out about 1,000 US Army troops to scour the
countryside for miles to pick up ANY PIECE of DEBRIS, then
called it a weather balloon two days later. The reports of
bodies could never be proven, although the numerous buildings on
Roswell Army/Air Force Base that went "off limits" were merely
plain old vanilla storage areas, and one refrigerated storage
area. Why ?

To not deny the existence of aliens; dead or alive; the country
(The World !) would have gone into PANIC MODE big time, as there
was no way for the planet to intercept or understand all those
alien aircraft that had been recently reported... Why the aliens
did not persist when they lost one craft ? Who knows ? Perhaps
they were pacifists and couldn't continue to come back - maybe
they were at the "end of their range" of exploration from
another galaxy ?

Like I said, you need to visit this museum and read it all,
listen to it all, review all the reports from other sources as
well as the US Government sources. It will open your mind like a
VERY LARGE dose of Horseradish on a roast beef sandwich - a LOT
of horseradish.

I am by no means an "expert" on all this, I was just impressed
with the displays at the Roswell UFO Museum, and I've visited
about 4 times in 4 years.


Keith

-----


Terry W. Colvin









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                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 06:43:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:37:27 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


> From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
> To: ufoupdates.nul
> Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:33:13 +0100
> Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:14:04 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:24:01 +0100
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>>>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:10:14 -0500
>>>>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>So it wouldn't have been much of a secret then, would it?
>>>Presumably the Soviet's intelligence facilities would have told
>>>them about strange events at Roswell. The clue, of course would
>>>be in the bit you snipped from my previous reply (as always):
>>>the disappearance from the academic scene of a great number of
>>>American scientists and technicians in a wide range of
>>>disciplines. This is, after all, how the US government
>>>determined that the Soviets were developing their own nuclear
>>>weapons in the 1940s.

>>etc. etc. etc.

>>I will leave it to the rest of you to decide how much sense
>>John Rimmer is making. I have said all I intend to say on the
>>subject, and Listfolk are free to judge which of us has the more
>>measured and defensible view.

>>Just so that John doesn't whine again that I've clipped out
>>his pearls of wisdom, those who are interested - and who don't
>>know it already - can easily find them in the Updates archive,
>>where they are preserved, in all their rhetorical glory, for
>>posterity.

>Thanks, Jerry. You've made my point for me.

And you, with no small irony, make _his_ point for _him_.

Thank _you_.

alienview.nul
   www.AlienView.net









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                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 06:46:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:39:10 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:08:06 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:58:44 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>>This is not, as apparently you would have it, a defense of
>>Roswell, the pros and cons of which can be debated on other,
>>more cogent grounds. What I object to is your foolish insistence
>>that records on vital matters - _especially_ vital matters -
>>can't be hidden even from the most determined prying eyes.
>>There are good reasons to question Roswell as ET-related event
>>(I discussed one of them in a response yesterday to John
>>Rimmer), but yours isn't one of them.

>After a bit of circumlocution, you have in fact answered my
question.

>Thanks Jerry. I shall now close the debate.


That's hardly your call, Sir.

alienview.nul
   www.AlienView.net









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                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:17:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:41:46 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:28:58 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:59:42 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:14:04 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>I will leave it to the rest of you to decide how much sense John
>>>Rimmer is making. I have said all I intend to say on the
>>>subject, and Listfolk are free to judge which of us has the more
>>>measured and defensible view.

>>>Just so that John doesn't whine again that I've clipped out his
>>>pearls of wisdom, those who are interested - and who don't know
>>>it already - can easily find them in the Updates archive, where
>>>they are preserved, in all their rhetorical glory, for
>>>posterity.

>>From which they can be etched onto gold painted tablets and
>>ensconced in the Pelicanist temple at CFI headquarters, along
>>with the relics and fetishes of Philip Klass.

>Jerry, are you happy being the straight-man feed for Alfred's
>witty, Wildean apercus?


Mr. Rimmer, dear heart... while it's pretty obvious enough that
_you're_ not, it's a little unseemly that you begin to whine now
as your own tactic of smirking condescension and transparent
contempt is projected back to you. Moreover, I find the
comparison to Oscar _thrilling_, Sir. Thank you.

It remains that you are not convincing in the aggregate, even as
Mr. Clark, decidedly, _is_, Mr. Rimmer. The blame for that can
hardly be attributed to Mr. Clark... a person concerned about
and working for clarity with regard to an issue you toil
passionately (by all appearances) to cloud, complicate, and
confuse.

And believe me... it won't matter much _what_ Mr. Clark thinks
about my "apercus"'... I'm not on his payroll, even as I
_wouldn't_ be on yours. Thanks again.


alienview.nul
  www.AlienView.net









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             Re: Pre-Analysis Report Of Ed Gerhman's Crash Site

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:59:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:44:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Pre-Analysis Report Of Ed Gerhman's Crash Site


>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>To: UFO Updates" <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:39:53 -0600
>Subject: Pre-Analysis Report Of Ed Gerhman's Crash Site

>Fellow Listarians,

>Report of Pre-Investigation of Ed Gerhman's Alleged Crash Site

>As stated in a post last last Spring, I have completed an
>informal observation of the crash site of an alleged UFO, as
>located by Ed Gerhman.

>Specimens and photos were taken of and from this location
>and will be examined further.

>The area, as Ed has described it, in many posts to UFO
>Updates, is extremely interesting. Ed's description of the
>site has not, in my opinion, been overstated.

>In the future, once I have the test results from the
>collected specimens (if feasible), I will give my full
>opinion as to the site and Ed's research.

>Please know and understand that I have no position statement on
>the validity of the alien autopsy film and the controversy
>surrounding it. My focus is solely an historical perspective on
>the site as described by the cameraman and located by Ed.


Wow! I'm really anticipating the shakedown. Please keep us
posted!

alienview.nul
www.AlienView.net
...content to read, content to hear, content to see.....







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                         Re: Cattle Mutes - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:15:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:45:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes - Maccabee


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 10:02:51 +0100
>Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:17:51 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes

>><snip>
>>>If black budget programs exist which provide for ET "projects"
>>>on American citizens without their express knowledge and
>>>acquiescence, I think another revolution might be indicated.
>>>Surely this would rank above tea on the taxation without
>>>representation scale.

>><snip>

>>If you want to see this spelled out in detail read the magnum
>>opus by 'Victor Norgarde - Dr. John Brandenberg - "Morningstar
>>Pass" (1st Books, 2003).

>>If you can ignore the poor editing you will find an amazing
>>story - fiction - which starts from the assumption of an
>>agreement with aliens and plays out the consequences of that.

>>The magnum opus is 711 pages long, so if you start reading we
>>won't expect to see you on UpDates for a while.

>Thanks Bruce, l too do like Sci Fi but is there a film? Films
>are much better as they do not 'stick to' the relavent points
>and take up less valuable time :-)

No movie... yet. Probably would form a great basis for a movie
that could,perhaps, show 0.1 of what is in the book.








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                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:25:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:48:27 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:53:35 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:31:55 +0000
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>>In the past, I have labeled this the Deluded Observer
>>Hypothesis (conveniently reduced to the acronym DOH, pronounced
>>Duh or Doh!). Given their mindset, it apparently is impossible
>>for them to get past the idea that anyone who disagrees with the
>>DOH must be (a) crazy, (b) mercenary, (c) dishonest, (d).....
>>They inevitably focus on known cases of misidentification and
>>project from that to zero real evidence of "truly anomalous"
>>events. The very terminology sets their teeth on edge.

>Well said as always. If we're going to call their favorite
>doctrine "DOH", perhaps it's time to add a new word to the
>vocabulary to characterize them. I propose that if we are to
>bring DOH into ufological language, we ought to acknowledge
>where that wonderful phrase comes from, giving all due credit to
t>hat beloved mope Homer Simpson, who groans "doh!" whenever he's
>screwed up, as he does every time. DOH advocates, therefore, are
>"simpsonists."

May I propose an alternative designation... with a double
entendre: "homeric".








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                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:16:29 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:51:59 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:15:41 EDT
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>I discovered the top secret Roswell policy of the then AAF by
>sheer accident while researching a completely different non-UFO
>historical subject. The policy was initiated in extreme secrecy
>on about August 1, 1947, and lasted about two years after the
>threat being defended against never materialized. It was
>apparently not the result of any crashed ET spacecraft or alien
>corpses or machinery being found at Roswell, but something of
>sufficiently disturbing importance as to trigger radical efforts
>to meet the military threat thought to come from deep space.

<snip>

>Roswell is hardly "closed". But neither the pro-UFO community or
>the anti-UFO skeptic-debunker community wants to hear about it,
>because it doesn't support either side's simplistic pet
>theories.

To Brad and all,

Your post is very intriguing. You say that something very
disturbing was discovered, but that it was not an alien craft
with bodies.

What was it then? How do you know? You won't say!

We are not good enough to learn?

Sorry, as long as you don't say more, it will be of no value to
me.

But, I will be very interested to learn, and quite ready to
change my mind, although I wrote myself a 460 page book on
Roswell in French, defending the ET hypothesis.

Among other things, you will have to explain all the strange
materials described by witnesses. I am sure other people will be
interested too, such as Jesse Marcel Jr - for one.


Gildas Bourdais








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              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:14:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:53:54 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:18:44 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:31:55 +0000
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:14:04 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell


Patient and gentle Listfolk:

>I wonder whether Jerry would, in fact, define himself as an 'ET
>hypothesizer' or a 'UFO believer', as whenever I have challenged
>him on his - as I see it - perceived support for the ETH he has
>vigorously denied any such belief, maintaining that unexplained
>UFO reports are merely that - unexplained. No matter how often I
>have tried to persuade him to admit that he does accept the ETH,
>he has always indignantly rejected the allegation.

Sigh. Once again:

I have laid out my views on these matters throughout my
writings. I appreciate John's fascination with my views, but not
his effort to tell me what I think. Other people don't seem to
have John's problem, if I may judge from reviews in mainstream
publications (which, if I may put modesty aside for a moment,
tend to praise my reasoning skills and nuanced approach) and
from the correspondence I have received over the years from
thoughtful readers.

The introduction to Unexplained! (Visible Ink Press, 2nd ed.,
1998) and my essay in The Anomalist (Spring 2000) - as well as
the long intro to my book Unnatural Phenomena (ABC-CLIO, 2005) -
 set forth my approach to anomalistics, including ufology.
Apparently, John labors under the delusion that I am hiding my
true opinions ("beliefs" to him) which he has managed to
discerne through his keen telepathic
insights.

Meanwhile, as for the ETH specifically, I regard it as an "open
question" (Strange Skies, p. 216), neither proved nor disproved
nor - so long as it is recognized as provisional and tentative -
unreasonable.

(I am amused to observe once again that I spend far less time
thinking about the ETH than the obsessives of the pelicanist
school do. But then, they deem it the most threatening and hated
of all heresies which must be run down and crushed whenever
pelicanists think they have detected the faintest wisp of it.
Such as here.)

On the other hand, I regard the doctrine that all witnesses are
mistaken or lying and that all is resolvable into the cozily
prosaic as hopeless and useless - a conclusion that anyone who
follows the recurring List debates between pelicanists and their
more open-minded adversaries is likely to share, I suspect.

Not being preoccupied with theory, I prefer more pragmatic
approaches which eventually, we hope, will allow us to construct
hypotheses on firmer grounds than are currently available. In
the meantime, I remain convinced that UFOs and other major
anomalies involve phenomena, whether ultimately found to be
trivial or seminal, that lie beyond current knowledge. I also
suspect - since no other explanation makes sense to me - that
some or many experiences of the anomalous grow out of
extraordinary, little-understood aspects of consciousness (an
issue that in fact has been the focus of my research and major
interest in recent years), but that other reports describe
genuine, real-world events. Until we know more about them -
which will not happen until science devotes its full resources
to addressing these questions - a degree of intellectual
modesty, apparently beyond John's capacity to sustain or even
imagine, seems in order.


Jerry Clark










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                           Re: Cattle Mutes - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:24:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:54:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes - King


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:17:51 -0400
>Subject: Re: Cattle Mutes

><snip>

>If you want to see this spelled out in detail read the magnum
>opus by 'Victor Norgarde - Dr. John Brandenberg - "Morningstar
>Pass" (1st Books, 2003).

>If you can ignore the poor editing you will find an amazing
>story - fiction - which starts from the assumption of an
>agreement with aliens and plays out the consequences of that.

>The magnum opus is 711 pages long, so if you start reading we
>won't expect to see you on UpDates for a while.

Dr. Maccabee,

Thank you for the reference. I'll see if I can find a copy.


Best Regards,

Kyle







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   Sep > Sep 14

                    There's No Business Like UFO Business

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:13:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:13:25 -0400
Subject: There's No Business Like UFO Business



Source: New York Newsday

http://www.nynewsday.com/entertainment/stage/ny-etsecw3965813sep14,0,2597513.sto
ry?coll=nyc-manheadlines-stage

09-14-04

Off-Broadway Review
There's No Business Like UFO Business

By Gordon Cox
Gordon Cox is a regular contributor to Newsday.


A description of "The First (and Last) Musical on Mars" could
sound misleadingly charming. A musical ode to cheesy science
fiction B- movies, "Mars" cheerfully embraces the no-budget
aesthetic of the cheaply made flicks that inspired it.
Futuristic contraptions look like they've been assembled from
junkyard detritus. A majority of the alien costumes are sheets
haphazardly sewn together. All the women wear glittery blue eye
shadow. The cybernetic crown of the ruler of Jupiter is a
souped-up mixing bowl.

The show might have been an entertainingly dopey goof, but it
plays more like a UFO crash-landing. Creator George Zarr, a
former producer of the Sci Fi Channel's audio series "Seeing Ear
Theater," directs a production whose amateurishness comes off
not as a winking allusion to its pulp roots, but as the best he
can muster.

The script, which brings to mind "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the
Galaxy" with none of Douglas Adams' wit or imagination, centers
on a hapless earthling, James (Paul Amodeo), who is beamed up
from Chagrin Falls, Ohio, by a council of extraterrestrial
rulers. Jupiter's scheming king (John Barrilla) threatens to
destroy the Earth unless James can produce a new musical for the
coronation of his twin nieces.

There are jokes waiting to happen here, but by making James an
Average Joe who neither loves nor hates musicals, Zarr exploits
none of them. Why, for instance, isn't James a dizzy musical
theater queen suddenly immersed in intergalactic intrigue? Or
why not depict James as such a football- loving non-theatergoer
that the prospect of making a musical is both baffling and
distasteful to him?

The score would likely sound less simplistic if it were played
by more than a single keyboardist, but fuller orchestration
won't help the lyrics any. The opening couplet of the show's
first full song - "When I'm in space/It's time to race" - is
about as complex as it gets. The few examples of inspired
wordplay occur in numbers ("Better Buy O-hi-o," "The Mnemonic
Planetary Rag") that serve no narrative purpose, and that repeat
their verses so often that by the fourth time you hear them,
they've stopped being clever.

Given all that, it seems unkind to single out actors for failing
to conjure any swift-paced comic buoyancy. Amodeo at least has a
strong singing voice, which can't be said of all of his
castmates.

The production's only real treat is Christina D'Orta as Princess
Loo- Koo, one of the king's nieces. She sings in a smooth,
seemingly effortless soprano, and she plays the sweetly
openhearted princess with smiling warmth and unforced humor.
She's a funny, appealingly human presence, which in this context
makes her look all too alien.

THE FIRST (AND LAST) MUSICAL ON MARS. Written, composed and
directed by George Zarr. Through Oct.2 at Mint Space, 311 W.
43rd St., fifth floor, between Eighth and Ninthavenues. Tickets
$15. Call 212-645-6910 or visit www.Mars Musical.com. Seen
Saturday.


Copyright 2004, Newsday, Inc.








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   Sep > Sep 14

                          Secrecy News -- 09/13/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:30:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:14:51 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 09/13/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 81
September 13, 2004


**      WHITE HOUSE NAMES MEMBERS TO DECLASSIFICATION BOARD
**      AGROTERRORISM: THREATS AND PREPAREDNESS (CRS)
**      INTELLIGENCE R&D: ARDA SEEKS "HIGH-RISK, HIGH PAYOFF" PROPOSALS


WHITE HOUSE NAMES MEMBERS TO DECLASSIFICATION BOARD

Last week the White House announced the names of five persons
who will be appointed to a new Public Interest Declassification
Board.

The Public Interest Declassification Board was actually created
in statute four years ago to promote public access to national
security information and to advise the government on
declassification policies and priorities.

But because its members were never named, the Board has remained
dormant.

Most of the individuals chosen by the White House to advance the
public interest in declassification are former intelligence
community officials.

They include L. Britt Snider, former CIA General Counsel; Martin
Faga, former director of the National Reconnaissance Office;
Steven Garfinkel, the former director of the Information
Security Oversight Office; Elizabeth Rindskopf Parker, former
General Counsel of the National Security Agency; and Richard N.
Smith, historian and co-author with Bob and Elizabeth Dole of
their joint autobiography.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2004/09/wh091004.html

The remaining members of the nine-person Board must be named by
the House and Senate leadership. It is not known whether or when
that may be done.

The Public Interest Declassification Board was the only
surviving element of the legislative reform package recommended
in 1997 by the Commission on Protecting and Reducing Government
Secrecy, chaired by the late Sen. Daniel P. Moynihan. The Board
was established in the Fiscal Year 2001 Intelligence
Authorization Act. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2000_rpt/hr5630e.html#pida

If successfully constituted, the Board would overlap with, and
may preempt, a similar proposal offered lately by Senators Trent
Lott and Ron Wyden to created an Independent National Security
Classification Board (S. 2672).


AGROTERRORISM: THREATS AND PREPAREDNESS (CRS)

Potential terrorist attacks against agricultural targets are the
subject of a new report from the Congressional Research Service.

"Agroterrorism is a subset of bioterrorism, and is defined as
the deliberate introduction of an animal or plant disease with
the goal of generating fear, causing economic losses, and/or
undermining stability," the CRS explains. "Attacks against
agriculture are not new, and have been conducted or considered
by both nation-states and substate organizations throughout
history."

See "Agroterrorism: Threats and Preparedness," August 13, 2004
(courtesy of the Center for Democracy and Technology):

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32521.pdf

CRS policy prohibits direct public access to products like this
one. This policy tends to shield errors in CRS reports from
discovery.


INTELLIGENCE R&D: ARDA SEEKS "HIGH RISK, HIGH PAYOFF" PROPOSALS

The Advanced Research and Development Agency (ARDA) is
soliciting proposals for research to meet U.S. intelligence
needs in information technology and other fields.

ARDA "is an intelligence community organization whose mission is
to sponsor high-risk, high-payoff research designed to leverage
leading edge technology to solve some of the most critical
problems facing the Intelligence Community (IC)," according to
the solicitation.

Particular areas of interest include data mining, advanced
capabilities for intelligence analysis, video analysis and
content extraction, and nanoelectronics for high performance
computing.

See a copy of the August 31, 2004 ARDA solicitation here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/09/arda-call.pdf


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691








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   Sep > Sep 14

                   Psychic Claims Aliens Control The Media

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:18:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:18:09 -0400
Subject: Psychic Claims Aliens Control The Media




Source: NCBuy

http://www.ncbuy.com/news/2004-09-13/1010557.html

09-13-04

Wireless Flash Weird News

Psychic Claims Aliens Control The Media

SAN DIEGO (Wireless Flash) - It's not the liberals who control
the media - it's the aliens.

That's the claim of San Diego clairvoyant Amirah Hall, who says
she has sensed aliens far beyond our galaxy who are attacking
humans with negative energy through TV and radio waves.

Hall claims these aliens are so advanced, they've developed past
the need of physical bodies.

She says they're "dripping waves of fear and chaos" into
broadcasts to keep humans off their path. She says their goal is
to "keep our planet from evolving to where it should be."

What's even more spacey, is the reason they're doing it: Because
they can.

Hall admits it sounds simplistic and "Star Warsy," but it's a
big game to them, a battle of dark versus light.

There's help though. She says using "grounding" techniques -
 like imagining that a rope coming from your tailbone is
tethered to the center of the earth - will help humans wake up
and realize they're being influenced.


[UFO UpDates thanks http://www.anomalist.com & Richard Hendricks
 for the lead]








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   Sep > Sep 14

               Space Probes Feel Cosmic Tug Of Bizarre Forces

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:21:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:21:46 -0400
Subject: Space Probes Feel Cosmic Tug Of Bizarre Forces




Source: The Observer - London

http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/sciences/story/0,12243,1302857,00.html

09-12-04

Space Probes Feel Cosmic Tug Of Bizarre Forces

Robin McKie
Science Editor

Something strange is tugging at America's oldest spacecraft. As
the Pioneer 10 and 11 probes head towards distant stars,
scientists have discovered that the craft - launched more than
30 years ago - appear to be in the grip of a mysterious force
that is holding them back as they sweep out of the solar system.

Some researchers say unseen 'dark matter' may permeate the
universe and that this is affecting the Pioneers' passage.
Others say flaws in our understanding of the laws of gravity
best explain the crafts' wayward behaviour.

As a result, scientists are to press a European Space Agency
(Esa) meeting, called Cosmic Visions, in Paris this week for
backing for a mission that would follow the Pioneers and
pinpoint the cause of their erratic movements.

The strange behaviour of the Pioneers - which swept by Jupiter
and Saturn in the Eighties - was discovered by John Anderson and
Slava Turyshev of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena and
Michael Martin Neito of the Los Alamos National Laboratory.

They had been tracking the probes using the giant dishes of
Nasa's Deep Space Network. By the time the two spaceships had
swept beyond Pluto, they noted there were persistent anomalies
in their trajectories. Every time they looked the Pioneers were
in the wrong place. The effect was not large, but it was
significant. Something more than the Sun's gravity appeared to
have a grip on the craft.

The reasons for the anomaly have caused a rift among physicists,
however. Some believe the effect may simply be flaws with the
probes. Gas from fuel tanks may be leaking from them, slowing
their passages, say some astronomers. 'Unless there is really
good evidence to the contrary, we should stick to simple ideas
like these and not go around blaming strange new types of
particle or flaws in general relativity,' said Professor Martin
Barstow, of Leicester University.

But this view has been rejected by Anderson. 'It's hard to
imagine such a leak happening on both probes at the same time in
such a way as to produce an identical acceleration,' he said.

And most scientists back him. 'The effect is real,' said Bernard
Haisch of the California Institute for Physics and Astrophysics.

One proposal put forward is that Newton's idea that the force of
gravity weakens as distance increases may be incorrect over very
large spaces, and may drop off over very long distances.

'It is time to settle the Pioneer issue with a new deep-space
mission that will test for, and decide on, the anomaly,'
Anderson, Turyshev and Nieto state in Physics World .

By fitting a Pioneer follow-up probe with new measuring
equipment, navigational device and communications gear, it
should be possible to discover if the probes are in the grip of
a new force of nature.


[UFO UpDates thanks http://www.anomalist.com & Richard Hendricks
 for the lead]







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   Sep > Sep 14

                   Groundbreaking Discovery In The Cosmos?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:27:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:27:12 -0400
Subject: Groundbreaking Discovery In The Cosmos?




Source: The San Francisco Chronicle

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/09/11/NEWPLANET.TMP&type=s
cience

09-11-04

Groundbreaking Discovery In The Cosmos?

Object 230 light years away could well be first planet directly
seen outside solar system

Keay Davidson
Chronicle Science Writer

What might be the first directly visible planet orbiting a
starlike body other than our sun was reported by scientists from
Europe and Los Angeles on Friday.

The "faint and very red point of light" possibly orbits a dim
brown dwarf -- a kind of failed star -- about 230 light years
from Earth, the scientists said in a statement issued Friday by
the European Southern Observatory, or ESO. A light year is about
6 trillion miles, the distance light travels in a year.

Further observation is needed to determine whether the object in
the constellation Hydra is a bona fide planet -- or whether it
is just a background star, a fluke in the telescope or some
other anomaly, the astronomers cautioned.

But if, in time, the object is unquestionably identified as a
planet, the discovery would mark a watershed in the history of
science -- one of the biggest since Galileo spotted the moons of
Jupiter through a tabletop telescope 394 years ago. For the
first time, humans would have directly observed a planet
orbiting a star or starlike body rather than indirectly
inferring its existence based on its gravitational pull on that
body.

A leading American member of the team, Professor Benjamin
Zuckerman of UCLA, says he's pretty confident the object is a
real planet.

"If I was a betting man, I'd say it's somewhere between 'likely'
and 'very likely' that it's the real McCoy," he said in an
interview Friday.

One reason for Zuckerman's confidence is that the object is
quite close to the brown dwarf, as one would expect for planet
orbiting a star or brown dwarf. The probability seems "very low"
that the two objects could be that close to each other just by
chance, he explained.

Preliminary analysis hints that the puzzling object is several
times as big as the planet Jupiter in our planetary system. The
astronomers plan to determine the object's real identity by
studying it for several more months to see whether it moves
through space along with the brown dwarf, like a puppy tagging
along after its mom, as one would expect a planet to accompany
its parent star.

The astronomers first observed the mysterious object in April at
ESO's Paranal Observatory in northern Chile. It is adjacent to a
brown dwarf known as 2M1207. A brown dwarf is a kind of failed
star that is more massive than "gas giants," such as Jupiter and
Saturn in our planetary system, but that isn't massive enough to
crush its atomic nuclei together in the nuclear fusion process
that ignites stars.

But no one should jump to the conclusion that the planet, if
indeed it is a planet, is perhaps habitable, cautioned noted
astronomy popularizer Andrew Fraknoi, who teaches at Foothill
College in Los Altos Hills. The object is 55 "astronomical
units" from the brown dwarf -- that is, 55 times as far from the
brown dwarf as Earth is from the sun, which would make it
unbearably cold.

"You're going to need your long underwear," Fraknoi joked.

Historically it's been extremely difficult to discern planets
orbiting other stars. Trying to directly see such a tiny object
next to a star "is like trying to see a fruit fly right next to
a giant spotlight shining right next to you," an expert on
extrasolar planets, astronomy Prof. William Cochran of the
University of Texas, said in an interview Friday.

Over the last decade, astronomers around the world have
discovered more than 120 "extrasolar planets" or "exoplanets" --
 the terms used for planets orbiting distant stars. But none has
indubitably seen a new planet directly as a visual image.

Rather, the existence of new planets has been inferred by
measuring the almost imperceptibly subtle wiggles in the motion
of stars. Those wiggles tell the astronomers that the gravity of
an unseen planet is tugging the star back and forth ever so
slightly as it orbits the star.

Recently, though, there have been scattered reports -- "maybe a
half a dozen," Zuckerman estimates -- of direct visual
detections of possible extrasolar plants.

For example, in May, graduate student John Debes at Pennsylvania
State University reported that in analyzing photos from the
Hubble Space Telescope, he might have discerned a visual image
of one or more extrasolar planets orbiting "white dwarf" stars
from 30 to 55 light years from Earth.

So far, however, none of the direct observations has been
verified.

Friday's news from the ESO in Garching, Germany, "looks pretty
interesting," said astrophysicist Alan Boss of Carnegie
Institution of Washington, a leading U.S. expert on planetary
system formation.

He says more data is needed before the object's identity can be
known, but he takes the claim seriously: "The Europeans, they
are really (competing with) the U.S. in every field of astronomy
these days -- they put a lot of money into it."

The ESO team includes Gael Chauvin, Christophe Dumas, Anne-Marie
Lagrange, Jean-Luc Beuzit and David Mouillet of Europe;
Zuckerman and his UCLA colleague Inseok Song; and Patrick
Lowrance at Infrared Processing and Analysis Center (IPAC) in
Pasadena.

[UFO UpDates thanks http://www.anomalist.com & Richard Hendricks
 for the lead]







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   Sep > Sep 14

                            Is Anybody Out There?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:43:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:43:05 -0400
Subject: Is Anybody Out There?




Source: The Portsmouth Herald - New Hampshire

http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/exeter/09102004/currents/36843.htm

09-10-04


Is Anybody Out There?

By Rachel Forrest
currents.nul

What must it have been like for the indigenous tribes of the
Americas, Africa or Australia hundreds of years ago to suddenly
find an alien culture on their land, a culture that was more
technologically advanced than theirs? They must have been
curious, intrigued, puzzled, and more than a little bit scared.
The conquerors and explorers from Europe must have seemed like
they came from the sky, from another planet. They had to develop
a way to deal with the new element in their lives. And they did,
in many ways, some of them welcoming, and some hostile.

That could never happeen to us. Not in this day and age. No new
explorers exist to pop in and see who we are and what we�re up
to. Or do they? There are those who believe that off-planet
cultures exist and that beings from these cultures have been
here before. They say that we need a plan of action and
interaction when we meet these beings, because the presence of
these cultures will affect many aspects of our life on earth.

In early August a group of people interested in the
implications of these cultures in our lives met in Exeter at the
Unitarian Church to hear the ideas of Thomas Hansen, Ph.D., from
Virginia, and Exeter resident Carol Hochstedler, and to discuss
their own ideas. They want the study of Exopolitics, which is
concerned with the political, social, economic, technological,
environmental, spiritual, military, scientific and personal
implications of off-planet cultures interacting with humanity,
to come out as a legitimate field of research and dialog.

Hansen, a mathematician, opened the discussion by playing the
guitar and singing one of his original songs, "Official
Explanation Blues." In it, he describes his frustration, which
he says he shares with others, at not being taken seriously by
public officials.

"Lights in the sky on a cloudy night, we�ve seen some things and
we�re sure we�re right, but officials say the answer must be no,
they say we�ve seen too many a sci-fi show. Once again they win
we lose. Got those official explanation blue," he sings.

According to Hansen and many others, beings from off-planet
cultures have been visiting Earth for hundreds of years, but
it�s in the best interest of various political power centers in
the United States and elsewhere to keep these visitations not
only quiet, but suppressed, despite the fact that recent Gallup
and Roper polls show that 50 percent of Americans believe that
unidentified flying objects are real, and 70 percent believe the
U.S. government knows more about UFOs than it�s letting on.

Hochstedler comes at her beliefs in off-planet cultures from a
largely spiritual point of view. In 1993 she attended a
spirituality conference at which the former surgeon general of
Finland spoke about the existence of these cultures in the
universe. Other speakers reinforced this idea.

"The message was hopeful," says Hochstedler. "The whole idea fit
in to my world view and the shackles just fell away. I walked
around the conference and the conversations continued all around
me about the possibilities."

"I read �Incident in Exeter� and other accounts of sightings in
New Hampshire, and then met Tom at another spirituality
conference. He told me about The Disclosure Project."

In the "Incident at Exeter," on Sept. 3, 1965, a recent high
school graduate in Exeter, Norman Muscarello, was hitchhiking
home on Route 150 just outside of town. At about 2:30 a.m.
Muscarello spotted a huge object that gave off an intense red
glow and then rose up from some nearby woods and moved toward
him. He found two policemen who confirmed the sighting, but
official policy said, "It can�t be, therefore it isn�t," and
sought other more mundane possibilities.

But unexplainable experiences occur, and The Disclosure Project,
a nonprofit research project seeking to disclose what it
purports to be facts about UFOs, extraterrestrial intelligence,
classified advanced energy and propulsion systems, wants to
testify before Congress and bring it all out into the open.

According to the group, more than 400 government, military, and
intelligence community witnesses have and are willing to testify
to their direct, personal, first-hand experience with UFOs, ETs,
ET technology, and the alleged cover-up that keeps this
information secret.

Disclosure Project member Dr. Ted Loder, professor at the
University of New Hampshire in the Department of Earth Sciences,
and a member of the Institute for the Study of Earth, Oceans,
and Space, says that military and intelligence officers, airline
pilots and NASA officials, have witnessed UFO encounters and
have been told to cover them up.

"There are corporate scientists and FAA officials who are trying
to testify in Congress. They once worked on projects that
recovered ET craft, and bodies, live and dead," says Hansen.

Hansen said he sees the benefits of the technology that advanced
other world cultures can bring to us, such as the replacement of
oil with zero-point energy technology and anti-gravity
propulsion, which are both more environmentally sound.

So why are there people who think the government is suppressing
this information, even threatening those who want to testify
before Congress and the world about what they�ve seen?

Fear for one, says Hansen. "They think humanity isn�t ready to
hear this. Look at the sci-fi movies in the 50s. They were all
about attacking and killing anything that came from outer
space."

Money and power are two other big reasons. Replacing oil as an
energy source with far more advanced and largely free clean
technologies would destroy already established power and wealth
structures.

So if there are off-planet cultures that have and are still
trying to make contact, why can�t we all see them and talk to
them? Where are they?

"They�ve watched the detonation of A-bombs. They�ve seen the
destruction and violence." Says Hochstedler. "In the galaxy,
there may be a Universe U.N. that�s waiting for us to get more
peaceable before they let us join."

Hansen and Hochstedler welcome opportunities to lead lectures
and discussions that normalize the topic. They�d like everyone
to see that they aren�t crackpots who "aren�t wrapped too
tight", as Hansen puts it. They see contact with off-planet
cultures as a chance to evolve spiritually, to become more
peaceful and accepting as a world culture.

And the fact that mainstream people are coming to these meetings
is a step in the right direction. Hochstedler says that the
president of Mexico is poised to take a stand on the issue and
other countries will follow with what they�ve seen and recorded.
They�re being taken seriously.

Hochstedler says "All human experience is a valid experience,
and the experiences of others with off-planet cultures needs to
be taken seriously and is an opportunity to connect spiritually
with another civilization. They may even be trying to help us."

Peace on Earth, goodwill toward mankind, and to whoever else is
out there in our big Universe.

---

Sidebar:

"Because of the course of events on Earth, it has become
necessary for we humans to declare our desire to join with
peaceful civilizations throughout the Universe to save Earth and
ourselves from our own excessive self-interest. We desire to use
our creativity to assure that all living things on Earth are
free to enjoy the resources and beauty of Creation now and
throughout future generations.

"We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable; that all are
created with the right to enjoy the Universe and receive
sustenance; all are endowed with certain inalienable rights,
among these are Life, Liberty, and the realization of Happiness;
that to secure these rights we recognize that the denial of the
rights of any living thing affects the rights of all beings in
the Universe.

"Civilizations are legitimized by their ability to promote these
rights for all life now and in the future. They should exist for
the purpose of recognizing and serving the unity of life. To the
extent that they promote primarily their own identity, they
inhibit the recognition and implementation of this unity.
Extreme identification with any part of the whole Cosmos, be it
a particular region of the Cosmos, a planet, nation, religion,
race, institution, or species is detrimental to individual and
collective peace throughout the Universe.

"We humans have changed life on Earth. We have converted
valuable resources into waste products. We have threatened the
very existence of life on Earth with our weapons of mass
destruction, mass pollution, and mass poverty. We have allowed
our strong desire for independence to interfere with our innate
and natural qualities of goodness, love, and sharing. We have
been lured into the belief that our individual lives are more
important than the lives of others, wherever they reside.

"We humans now choose to change our approach to all of life to
be that of service-to-others, rather than service-to-self. We
vow to eliminate our over-identification with our particular
individual lives and with our planet. We vow to create a new
sense of cooperation that values the life force within
everything. We pledge our lives to co-creating a Universe where
all beings can more easily remember their natural freedom,
unity, and goodness. We pledge that we, the people of Earth,
shall strive to become peaceful and productive members of the
Universal community of beings."

Source: Thomas Hansen, Ph.D.
www.cosmiccooperation.com

---

[UFO UpDates thanks http://www.anomalist.com & Richard Hendricks
 for the lead]







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 14

             Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:26:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:05:32 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:51:39 -0500
>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:24:21 -0700
>>Subject: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>Hello all,

>>A Picture or Video is Worth a Thousand Words.

>>As I can see the Mexican Air Force is not going to fly or
>>present any test from the FLIR video of march 05, 2004.

>>I was hoping to fly over the Gulf of Mexico this summer and have
>>the opportunity to film the Cantarell oil field in good weather
>>conditions and it happened days ago.

>>I was flying from Mexico City to Cancun over the Gulf of Mexico
>>on Sept. 03 and I get some nice shots very similar to the FLIR
>>"lights" of the Mexican Air Force Video from march 05, 2004.

>>The next day, on Sept. 04, I returned back to Mexico City and
>>again I took some nice pictures and video.

>>I hope the images are enough convincing for you as hey are for
>>me. If you need more information I'll be glad to answer any
>>questions.

><snip>

>Did you actually get a visual sighting of the oil flares?

Yes, they were in sight (naked eye) for more than 30 minutes.
Cantarell oil well flares are burning all the time 365 days a
year.

Cantarell oil well flares can be seen from the shore at Ciudad
del Carmen.

>If so, can you guess why the crew didn't?.

I guess the crew is not enough trained or experienced as to
provide any reliable info. The RADAR operator told the crew the
objects were in many positions related to the airplane's
position and in a closer distance so the pilot maybe saw the
lights from the oil wells but he was looking for closer objects.

Mexican Air Force Pilots do not fly more than 10 hours a month
and their training is extremely poor. Also the RADAR was not
working well and it will show up in the 6th or 7th part of the
video audio transcript.

As you may remember there was no RADAR video recording to prove
the lights (ufo) positions, we can only rely on the FLIR video,
not the one that was published on may 11th, I mean the full
video that also is cut in some parts of the 32 min long. Video
available at:

http://www.pixcells.dk/mexico/mexicoDODstream.wmv

The second part of then from the translation or transcript of
the video is available at:

http://www.alcione.org/CAMPECHE/

Mexican Air Force has no ground military RADAR.
Mexican Air Force has only 147 active airplanes.



Capt. Alejandro Franz
director.nul








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   Sep > Sep 14

               Call for Papers: 2nd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval

From: Ryan S. Wood <majesticdocuments.nul>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:58:53 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:08:30 -0400
Subject: Call for Papers: 2nd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Call for Papers: 2nd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference

BROOMFIELD, CO -- September 13, 2004 - UFO researchers working
in the areas of UFO crashes and government cover-up are invited
to contribute papers for presentation at the 2nd Annual UFO
Crash Retrieval Conference. The program committee is reserving
time for three thirty-minute talks.

This will be an excellent opportunity to present your research
and network with other UFO investigators. The ideal talks are
those relating to UFO crashes, their witnesses, and direct
evidence. For example, a credible single witness case with good
follow-up potential would be well received. The goal is to
expose the audience to little known UFO crash events that show
official government interest.

Titles and abstracts (no longer than 300 words) should be sent
no later than October 1st, 2004 to Ryan Wood:
rswood.nul

You must be registered for the meeting in order to present a
contributed talk. Airfare and hotel accommodations are not
provided for contributed speakers.

For more information please visit: www.ufoconference.com

This conference promises to be a breakthrough event, providing
fresh and eye-opening insights into the UFO enigma. We look
forward to seeing you in Las Vegas.

Ryan S. Wood
Conference Chairman
rswood.nul
Phone: 720-887-8239
Mail: 14004 Quail Ridge Drive
Broomfield, CO 80020








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   Sep > Sep 14

                  CCCRN News: Tree Circles - Nahanni Butte,

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:37:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:09:41 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Tree Circles - Nahanni Butte,



CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

September 13, 2004

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


TREE CIRCLES - NAHANNI BUTTE, NORTHWEST TERRITORIES

Two large circles in poplar trees, first reported as a rumour on
September 8. Estimated to be approximately 151 metres (500 feet)
and 91 metres (300 feet) diameters. Confirmed to have been
reported in the Deh Cho Drum newspaper (Fort Simpson, NWT) on
August 6:

http://www.nnsl.com/frames/newspapers/2004-08/aug6_04al.html

Trees apparently flattened radially. No photos available yet.
Investigation in progress.

This would normally just be referred as formation report #11,
but is certainly unique and different from most "standard" crop
formations, whether it is a case of unusual meteorological
weather damage or not (as hypothesized by the biologist in above
article). Also related to that, the second Matsqui, British
Columbia cattle corn formation (the "ankh") has been listed as a
rumour until it can be located on the ground, making for a total
still of 11 confirmed formations to date this year.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an e-mail with either
Subscribe CCCRN News or Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the subject
line to: cccrnnews.nul

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been seriously investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, media
and scientists

c. CCCRN, 2004







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   Sep > Sep 14

                        Re: In Plain Sight - Guenther

From: Daniel Guenther <daniel_g.nul-online.de>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:27:10 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:12:06 -0400
Subject: Re: In Plain Sight - Guenther


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:17:45 -0400
>Subject: Re: In Plain Sight

>>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 22:1:24 -0400
>>Subject: In Plain Sight

>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 14:48:07 +0000
>>>Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Fourth Kind

>>Significant UFO information is hidden, then, in plain sight
>>among the mass of Blue Book case files!

>I agree with the "hidden in plain sight" statement.

>Back when I was visiting the (old) national archives in the
>halcyon days of my youth (28 years ago!), back in the days when
>you could actually walk to the shelves which held the 98(?)
>rolls of microfilm, I discovered numerous cases that were
>mind-blowing.

>I also discovered that the Air Force Office of Special
>Investigation files were combined with the Blue Book files.

>The AFOSI files contained some information not found in the BB
>files. Of importance to me, at the time, was the fact that the
>AFOSI section of the microfilm records contained the details of
>Case 10 of Special Report #14, one of the best simple-visual,
>multiple-witness-sightings, ever.

Also John Greenewald Jr's www.blackvault.com collection includes
some documents of this case as I indicated at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/may/m22-006.shtml

I hope this project will come true.


Daniel G.

--
JTC - UFO sightings database
http://www.ufodb.net








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                        Re: In Plain Sight - Guenther

From: Daniel Guenther <daniel_g.nul-online.de>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:21:55 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:13:51 -0400
Subject: Re: In Plain Sight - Guenther


>From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 22:1:24 -0400
>Subject: In Plain Sight

<snip>

>The Project Blue Book microfilms are costly to purchase and it
>is difficult to find microfilm equipment to view the cases.
>Perhaps these are the reason that very little is heard about
>such cases. It might also be the case that since Project Blue
>Book is held in low esteem by many researchers, the feeling
>might be that these cases, especially "explained" are not worthy
>of any attention.

>In an effort to increase access to the Project Blue Book files,
>we have proposed that the microfilms be scanned into searchable
>text which can be placed on the Internet or sold on DVD's. So
>far most of the technical problems have been worked out. Such
>ambitious projects usually fall by the wayside. However, easy
>access would probably stimulate research by more people who
>could like Brad, Loren, and Joel come up with bits and piece
>hidden here and there, and also see relationships which others
>have missed.

Wow! I would appreciate that. After viewing a lot of UFO
documents including the FBI, DIA and CIA files and some of John
Greenewald Jr.'s documents at www.blackvault.com that would be a
chance to review additional material.


Daniel G.

--
JTC - UFO sightings database
http://www.ufodb.net








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   Sep > Sep 14

             Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:39:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:13:49 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:26:12 -0700
>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:51:39 -0500
>>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

<snip>

>>Did you actually get a visual sighting of the oil flares?

>Yes, they were in sight (naked eye) for more than 30 minutes.
>Cantarell oil well flares are burning all the time 365 days a
>year.

>Cantarell oil well flares can be seen from the shore at Ciudad
>del Carmen.

>>If so, can you guess why the crew didn't?.

>I guess the crew is not enough trained or experienced as to
>provide any reliable info. The RADAR operator told the crew the
>objects were in many positions related to the airplane's
>position and in a closer distance so the pilot maybe saw the
>lights from the oil wells but he was looking for closer objects.

>Mexican Air Force Pilots do not fly more than 10 hours a month
>and their training is extremely poor. Also the RADAR was not
>working well and it will show up in the 6th or 7th part of the
>video audio transcript.

This is astonishing... A Mexican aviator making such
disparagingly thoughtless comments regarding fellow Mexican
aviators. I don't know about Mexican military aviation training
procedures first hand, so I must withhold judgment on same. But
I was once a manager and intimate designer of military aviation
training programs, was in fact involved with them at multiple
levels, intra and extra-Service, intra and extra-nationally and
don't recall Mexican aviation and aviator competence _ever_
coming into question, and I'm around aviator trainers all the
time. Other nationalities come into question - frequently. The
'world' comes to my home town to learn to fly and be safe while
they fly.

Moreover, this drug interdiction mission has American military
training and oversight written all over it and I don't think
they'd tolerate a whole lot of protracted incompetence and lack
of experience given the importance of the interdiction
mission.

That these qualified Mexican mission specialists - and ten hours
of actual flightime is _plenty_ of training by the way - even
conservatively speaking can't, because of a proclaimed lack of
training and experience, be able to tell their asses from their


alienview.nul
  www.AlienView.net










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   Sep > Sep 14

             Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:12:20 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:19:17 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:26:12 -0700
>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:51:39 -0500
>>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:24:21 -0700
>>>Subject: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>>I was flying from Mexico City to Cancun over the Gulf of Mexico
>>>on Sept. 03 and I get some nice shots very similar to the FLIR
>>>"lights" of the Mexican Air Force Video from march 05, 2004.

>>>The next day, on Sept. 04, I returned back to Mexico City and
>>>again I took some nice pictures and video.

>>>I hope the images are enough convincing for you as hey are for
>>>me. If you need more information I'll be glad to answer any
>>>questions.

>><snip>

>>Did you actually get a visual sighting of the oil flares?

>Yes, they were in sight (naked eye) for more than 30 minutes.
>Cantarell oil well flares are burning all the time 365 days a
>year.

>Cantarell oil well flares can be seen from the shore at Ciudad
>del Carmen.

>>If so, can you guess why the crew didn't?.

<snip>

I must point out, again, that apparently Captain Franz was
taking pictures from _three_times_ the altitude of the
government plane.

Surely this impacts on the field of view? What was the vertical
angle from the plane?


Stan Friedman








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             Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:39:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:44:37 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:26:12 -0700
>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:51:39 -0500
>>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

<snip>

>>Did you actually get a visual sighting of the oil flares?

>Yes, they were in sight (naked eye) for more than 30 minutes.
>Cantarell oil well flares are burning all the time 365 days a
>year.

>Cantarell oil well flares can be seen from the shore at Ciudad
>del Carmen.

>>If so, can you guess why the crew didn't?.

>I guess the crew is not enough trained or experienced as to
>provide any reliable info. The RADAR operator told the crew the
>objects were in many positions related to the airplane's
>position and in a closer distance so the pilot maybe saw the
>lights from the oil wells but he was looking for closer objects.

>Mexican Air Force Pilots do not fly more than 10 hours a month
>and their training is extremely poor. Also the RADAR was not
>working well and it will show up in the 6th or 7th part of the
>video audio transcript.

This is astonishing... A Mexican aviator making such
disparagingly thoughtless comments regarding fellow Mexican
aviators. I don't know about Mexican military aviation training
procedures first hand, so I must withhold judgment on same. But
I was once a manager and intimate designer of military aviation
training programs, was in fact involved with them at multiple
levels, intra and extra-Service, intra and extra-nationally and
don't recall Mexican aviation and aviator competence _ever_
coming into question, and I'm around aviator trainers all the
time. Other nationalities come into question - frequently. The
'world' comes to my home town to learn to fly and be safe while
they fly.

Moreover, this drug interdiction mission has American military
training and oversight written all over it and I don't think
they'd tolerate a whole lot of protracted incompetence and lack
of experience given the importance of the interdiction
mission.

That these qualified Mexican mission specialists - and ten hours
of actual flightime is _plenty_ of training by the way - even
conservatively speaking can't, because of a proclaimed lack of
training and experience, be able to tell their asses from their
elbows... is simply ludicrous and a strain on my credulity, Sir.


alienview.nul
  www.AlienView.net







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   Sep > Sep 15

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 37

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:42:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:35:11 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 37


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 37
September 15, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


MAJORITY OF INDIANS
BELIEVE ALIENS EXIST

      "A series of polls conducted by UFO India has
produced some interesting results.  Up to 98 percent of
those polled believe that intelligent extraterrestrial
life does exist."
      UFO India is a Web site documenting UFO sightings in
India and trying to collect information and views on the
subject of extraterrestrial life, intelligence and
civilizations, director Prashant Solomon said.
      "The other questions asked included whether those
polled believed that the ancient (Hindu and pagan) gods
were actually advanced extraterrestrial visitors who
visited our planet eons ago and were then considered as
'gods' by the inhabitants of Earth at the time."
      "78 percent of those polled believed that they were."
      "69 percent of those polled believed that
extraterrestrial intelligence is already present on
Earth."
      "Regarding where else in the solar system life was
most likely--45 percent say Mars; 32 percent say Europa (a
moon of Jupiter, which has an underground liquid ocean
that contains more water than is present on Earth--P.S.);
and 17 percent say Titan (a moon of Saturn with a thick
atmosphere much like Earth in the primordial period--
P.S.)."
      "Another interesting result is that 51 percent of
those polled believe that intelligent extraterrestrial
life is more advanced technologically as well as being
more spiritually advanced than humans; 10 percent say they
will not be more spiritually advanced; 10 percent were
undecided; and 29 percent say that technological
development and spiritual development are in no way
connected to each other."  (Many thanks to Prashant
Solomon of UFO India for this news release.)


CATTLE MUTILATION
REPORTED IN NEBRASKA

      "Larry Jurjens was checking his herd of about 100
cattle" Thursday, August 19, 2004 "when he found a dead
11-year-old Black Angus."
      "Jurjens said the cow's left eyeball was removed, the
bag and udders had been removed, and there was a large
excision in the rectal region.  None of the internal
organs were removed, and he said the cuts appeared to have
been made with surgical precision."
      "The tongue had also been removed with the incision
made far back into the throat."
      "Jurjens said two puncture marks were on the cow,
each about 1/8 of an inch in diameter."
      "Jurjens, who has been a rancher" in Farnam, Nebraska
"for more than 35 years, said he has never seen anything
like it before."
      "Jurjens said no blood was found on or near the cow."
      "He said he estimates that the cow had been dead for
two days before it was discovered."
      "The estimated time of death corresponds with
unidentified noises heard in the area."  On the night of
Tuesday, August 17, 2004, "Jurjens's wife, Joanne, heard
what sounded like a large, low-flying aircraft going over
the house."
      "The low rumbling noise was heard by several other
witnesses as far away as Gothenburg (population 3,679),"
16 miles (27 kilometers) north of Farnam.
      "Witnesses said the noise persisted for a minute to
five minutes in some areas."
      "The cow's death is being investigated by Linda
Moulton Howe, an international investigative journalist
and documentary film producer from Jamison, Pa.  She
visited Jurjens' ranch on (Wednesday) August 25 (2004)."
      Farnam is on Highway 23 in southern Nebraska's Dawson
County, about 50 miles (80 kilometers) southeast of North
Platte.  (See the North Platte, Nebraska Telegraph for
September 2, 2004, "Farnam cow found mutilated."  Many
thanks to Robert Fischer for this newspaper article.)


MORE CROP CIRCLES
REPORTED IN CANADA

      A crop circle was found in Calgary, the largest city
in Canada's Alberta province, on Thursday, August 26,
2004.
      According to Canadian cerealogist Paul Anderson, "An
unusual oval ring was found in pasture grass in Nose Hill
Park, a large nature park of natural grasses and terrain"
in Calgary.
      The formation was "approximately 14.5 meters (50
feet) by 12 meters (40 feet).  Grass was flattened in
various directions in the 0.3 meter (1 foot) inside ring,
including straight across the width, with the ring stalks
well-defined.  Ring surrounds a large white rock roughly
in the center which appears to be part of the natural
landscape, not just placed there."
(Editor's Comment:  This is interesting.  It sounds as if
the crop circle is surrounding a "prayer rock" of the
local indigenous people.  A similar Lakota stone can be
found at the county museum in Sioux Falls, South Dakota.)
      Anderson added, "With a later harvest this year,
three ovals in wheat and pasture grass were found in
Wadena, Saskatchewan (population 1,477).  The ovals were
first found on (Thursday) September 2 (2004).  The entire
formation was 22 meters (73 feet) long."
      These were, respectively, the tenth and eleventh crop
circle formations found in Canada during 2004.  (Many
thanks to Paul Anderson of Canadian Crop Circle Research
Network for these reports.)


SILVER SPHERE SPOTTED
IN NORTH YORKSHIRE

      On Saturday, August 7, 2004, at around 7:30 p.m.,
Mrs. Becky Woodley and her husband were driving between
Pickering and Whitby on the North Yorkshire moors of UK
when they had a UFO encounter.
      The UFO "came from the west and headed off to the
northwest," Becky reported, "It was silver in colour,
round in shape.  It started off bright, and, as it moved,
it became brighter still until we saw it go out of sight."
      "My husband was driving and waiting to come out of a
junction when I spotted a very large, very bright object.
It was very still and silent.  It suddenly started moving
very slowly, so we parked up to watch it for several
minutes.  No sound was made from it at any time.  Neither
strobe lights nor vapour trail could be seen."  (Email
Form Report)


UFO ACTIVITY UP SHARPLY
NEAR BIG DIPPER STARGATE

      Ted Anderson has been an amateur astronomer for over
30 years.  Like many ufologists, he is intrigued by a
continual flurry of UFO activity he's seen by telescope in
the "handle" of the Big Dipper (the constellation Ursa
Major --J.T.) , near the stars Alcor and Mizar.
      If hyperspace is the "superhighway" for interstellar
alien spacecraft, then this region is the "exit ramp to
Earth" for the saucers.
      Ted Anderson calls it "the UFO Universe Freeway
Entrance."
      "I've been watching a special location in the heavens
for thirty years," Ted reported, "And I've seen several
hundred mother ships and planetary vehicles come and go.
Since August (2004), something has changed.  This is
extremely important.  As to why, your guess is as good as
mine."
      "Two to four small red alien ships are controlling
the Entrance.  They are moving around constantly.  I have
not seen an alien mother ship come or go since this
started.  They (the four UFOs) move fast; they chase each
other; they hold in place.  This has been going on for
several weeks now."
      "If you can see the Big Dipper, look to the south
toward Arcturus and watch between 9 p.m. and midnight.
They are too dark and move too fast to record with my
small, telescope-mounted camera."  (Email Form Report)
(Editor's Note:  Arcturus is at or below the horizon by
now.  If you have a telescope, readers, zero in on the
Whirlpool Galaxy just below Alcor and Mizar and check the
region of sky just west of the galaxy.)


"BRIGHT FLASH" PRECEDES
ISRAELI ROCKET'S CRASH

      "Israel's efforts to closely monitor Iran's missile
program, and to improve its own early-warning systems,
suffered a setback Monday," September 6, 2004, "when the
launch of a sophisticated spy satellite failed."
      "A rocket that was to have carried the Ofek-6 remote-
sensing satellite into orbit crashed into the
Mediterranean Sea shortly after its liftoff early in the
afternoon from Israel's sprawling Palmachim air and
missile base south of Tel Aviv."
      "It was the second significant failure in less than a
week of a high-tech Israeli military system.  The missile
interceptor Arrow 2, in a test-firing off the coast of
California last Thursday," September 2, 2004, proved
unable to hit its target.  However, Israeli officials said
it had succeeded in identifying the warhead of the dummy
missile it was supposed to have hit."
      "No one on the ground was injured in the failed Ofek
launch, which was not announced in advance."
      "Witnesses in Israel's southern coastal communities
reported seeing an intensely bright flash overhead (my
emphasis--J.T.), which caused some people to panic,
thinking a passenger jet had come under attack or that a
missile had been fired in the vicinity."
      "The (Israeli) Defense Ministry issued a brief
statement acknowledging the launch had failed, and that
the cause of the malfunction was being investigated."
      "The state-of-the-art Ofek-6 was developed by an
Israeli consortium led by the giant state-owned Israel
Aircraft Industries.  The satellite had a planned lifespan
of about five years, and was intended to serve as a major
upgrade of Israel's surveillance of armament programs of
other regional powers, most particularly Iran."
(See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for September 7, 2004,
"Israel's spy satellite fails as rocket crashes," page
7A.)
(Editor's Comment:  It sure looks like a UFO shot down
that Israeli rocket.  But for what reason?  Could it be
that Ariel Sharon is trying to sneak weapons of mass
destruction into Earth orbit?  Stay tuned...)


GENESIS CRASHES
IN THE UTAH DESERT

      "A parachute failure sent a NASA capsule carrying
prized samples of solar particles smashing into the Utah
desert Wednesday," September 8, 2004.
      "NASA had employed Hollywood stunt pilots to snag the
capsule's parachute and guide the fragiles samples to a
safe landing."
      "Instead, the only Hollywood touch was the saucer-
shaped capsule protruding from the desert floor like an
image in a UFO movie."
      "'The capsule was clearly not designed to withstand
this kind of impact,' said Chris Jones of NASA's Jet
Propulsion Laboratory.  NASA estimates that the capsule
hit at 193 mph (miles per hour) after an electronic
failure to trigger the capsule's parachutes."
      "Launched in 2001, Genesis spent 26 months in deep
space collecting dust from the sun.  The $264 million
mission was NASA's first retrieval of space samples since
1972's final lunar landing."
      "Scientists hope to study Genesis's solar samples to
understand the sun's chemistry, and some science results
should still be recoverable from the cracked capsule, says
NASA's Andrew Dantzler."
      "A braking chute was supposed to slow the capsule
after it entered Earth's atmosphere.  Instead, mission
controllers watched the capsule tumble and punch into the
desert floor at 9:59 a.m." Mountain (Utah) time.
      "Recovery of the capsule was delayed several hours as
workers dealt with still-unexploded mortars that were
supposed to have fired the parachutes."
      "'This has implications beyond Genesis,' says
spacecraft landing expert Paul Withers of Boston
University, because parachutes figure prominently in a
retrieval of comet dust planned for 2006 and future Mars
missions."
      "NASA plans to name a mishap review board."  (USA
Today for September 9, 2004, "Capsule bearing solar dust
crashes," page 1A.)


VANISHED PREHISTORIC SEA
ONCE EXISTED ON MARS

      "An ancient sea larger than the combined Great Lakes"
of the USA and Canada "likely filled the basin on Mars
where NASA's Opportunity rover now roams, say scientists."
      On Thursday, September 9, 2004, in the journal
Nature, "a University of Colorado team reports that salt
outcrops like those measured by Opportunity, evidence of
an ancient sea, appear from space to cover about 127,000
square miles of Martian soil."
(Editor's Note: By comparison, Lake Superior, which
contains about 65 percent of all the water in the Great
Lakes, has a surface area of 32,483 square miles.  So the
Martian "Burroughs Sea" is four times larger than Lake
Superior.)
      "The climate on Mars several billion years ago must
have been much wetter than today, the scientists
conclude."  (See USA Today for September 9, 2004, "Mars
data suggests a huge, vanished sea," page 10D.)
(Editor's Comment:  Combined with other evidence
throughout the solar system, the disappearance of the
"Burroughs Sea" suggests that Immanuel Velikovsky was
right when he wrote Worlds in Collision a half-century
ago.  Some unimaginable space catastrophe pushed Mars into
an orbit farther away from the sun, resulting in the Red
Planet's transformation into a frozen desert world.)


      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us in seven days
for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you next time.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

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UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
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   Sep > Sep 15

                Re: Groundbreaking Discovery In The Cosmos? -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:18:59 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:36:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Groundbreaking Discovery In The Cosmos? -


>Source: The San Francisco Chronicle

>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/09/11/NEWPLANET.TMP&type=
science

>09-11-04

>Groundbreaking Discovery In The Cosmos?

>Object 230 light years away could well be first planet directly
>seen outside solar system

>Keay Davidson
>Chronicle Science Writer

>What might be the first directly visible planet orbiting a
>starlike body other than our sun was reported by scientists from
>Europe and Los Angeles on Friday.

>The "faint and very red point of light" possibly orbits a dim
>brown dwarf -- a kind of failed star -- about 230 light years
>from Earth, the scientists said in a statement issued Friday by
>the European Southern Observatory, or ESO. A light year is about
>6 trillion miles, the distance light travels in a year.

>Further observation is needed to determine whether the object in
>the constellation Hydra is a bona fide planet -- or whether it
>is just a background star, a fluke in the telescope or some
>other anomaly, the astronomers cautioned.

>But if, in time, the object is unquestionably identified as a
>planet, the discovery would mark a watershed in the history of
>science -- one of the biggest since Galileo spotted the moons of
>Jupiter through a tabletop telescope 394 years ago. For the
>first time, humans would have directly observed a planet
>orbiting a star or starlike body rather than indirectly
>inferring its existence based on its gravitational pull on that
>body.


<snip>

Good Day Fellow Listerions,

Oh the irony of it all! I dream of the day when there are no
"double standards" in regards to Ufology, and, in this instance
Astronomy.

In Astronomy it appears there only needs to be "direct
observation" of what is thought to be an "exoplanet" and that is
heralded as a "watershed in the history of science!" The
observer(s') character isn't questioned; no curiosity of of his
of her (or their) indulgences in the sixties; no mention of
swamp gas or hoaxes!

Yes, to think that "observing" an object (visually witnessing,
i.e., "eyewitnessing") and or an occurrence is the
quintessential element in the verification of a theorem.
Forgetting not, that in Astronomy, prior to the ultimate
confirmation, (eyewitnessing) it seems that "circumstantial
evidence" is enough to make a thing so, e.g., a distant star's
wobble is enough for most to "omit" the usage of the noun,
"theory" and take it for granted that it is resolute!

Funny though, that even astronomers themselves "only" use that
protocol when it's associated to their field. A good example of
this was the Friedman/Shostak debate; when Shostak asked Stan
for evidence in support of ETH, his answer, i.e., physical trace
evidence, photographic evidence, radar reports, and a multitude
of eye witness testimony, to name a few, wasn't good enough for
Shostak, however; had the debate been about Astronomy, you can
be sure that, that "type of evidence" would have been more then
enough to advance a theorem falling under the afore mentioned
science.

Yes, imagine if those very same standards applied to Ufology!
Even the same headline could be used, "Ground Breaking Discovery
in The Cosmos."


Regards,

Frank Warren







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             Re: Psychic Claims Aliens Control The Media - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:12:10 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:37:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Psychic Claims Aliens Control The Media - Boone


>Source: NCBuy

>http://www.ncbuy.com/news/2004-09-13/1010557.html

>09-13-04

>Wireless Flash Weird News

>Psychic Claims Aliens Control The Media

>SAN DIEGO (Wireless Flash) - It's not the liberals who control
>the media - it's the aliens.

>That's the claim of San Diego clairvoyant Amirah Hall, who says
>she has sensed aliens far beyond our galaxy who are attacking
>humans with negative energy through TV and radio waves.

<snip>

Okay, now I've heard it all. 'Aliens' controlling media? Nah,
if aliens were controlling the media they'd have to stand in
line behind the real powers that control the media. For the
first time ever I'll reveal the the true forces of evil that
have the media in their gnarly clutches. Prepare yourselves for
the shock, the horror, the pulse pounding revelation that only
we who have dared brave to peel away that cloak of secrecy!
 Look ye upon the hierarchy of the media's mechanisms!

1.) Bartenders.. ( they RULE the media. with reporters and
editors with bar tabs so long you could wallpaper every home in
Pittsburgh three times over. The national debt is but a pittance
to the global trillions reporters and editors rack up in
martinis and banana daquaris. For those eager beaver neophyte
reporters just out of college, 'Happy Hour' is but a sinister
trap!)

2.) Bookies..( Those sly gambling bookkeepers who know
everything from the point spread to the weight of the jockey,
lord over the media. With their green eye shades and smoke
filled rooms and cliche' nick names like 'Lefty' and 'Snooks',
they prey on media with those irresistable odds. From who'll win
the World Series to what costume will the lovely actress Talia
Shire wear in her next feature film, bookies make the illuminati
look like pancake social.)

3.) Ex Wives ( Oh let us not forget the largest and most
powerful group ever to emerge from the debauchery of the 20th
Century, "Ex Wives"!!! With their army of the living dead, (
their attornies), they've cut a swath across the very fabric of
the Fourth Estate bringing misery and woe to all who would stand
in their way! The unsuspecting up and coming media man would
best take heed and adorn themselves in garlic and stray not into
the twilight lest they fall victim to these mistresses of
misery!)

4.) Collection Agencies ( Let no man who hath an ear turn away
from the warning of the most insidious group to emerge into the
western world: The Collection Agency. Hot on the heels of that
newly graduated student every eager to take on the world with
his or her journalistic skills, the Collection Agencies are soon
to pounce when those student loans, credit card bills, car loans
are due. Beware! They can change shape! They can appear as one's
best friend, or at an extreme one's own pet! Ever ready to take
advantage and harrass with phone calls and letters. Considering
that journalists are the lowest paid occupation yet most
influential it's a perfect recipe for corruption and greed. So
unholy are these Collection Agencies that not even a stake
through the heart can stop their etherwordly encroachment upon
the world of mortals! )

5.) Hookers... ( we won't go there, look what it did to Bill
Clinton)

6.) Annoying Family Members ( Perhaps nothing so evil could
emerge from the mind of man as the 'Annoying Family Member' aka
AFM. From disobedient child to horrid mother-in-law, the AFM has
done more damage to the media than federal regulations. So
terrible is this scourge to journalism that in some instances
reporters have been know to actually shout out "Hey Mom!" during
a newsbroadcast! Some talk show hosts actually spend half their
show discussing what new little cutesy-wootsey exploit their
dear little brat has engaged in! Woe the AFM should sink their
claws into your favorite reporter! Woe I say!)

So there. Aliens might have some control over the media but
those pesky little green men have to stand in line to the real
powers behind the microphone.

(Yeah, so what, I read alot of Stan Lee comic books when I grew
up.)


Best,

Greg








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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:23:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:39:52 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:16:29 +0200
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:15:41 EDT
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>>I discovered the top secret Roswell policy of the then AAF by
>>sheer accident while researching a completely different non-UFO
>>historical subject. The policy was initiated in extreme secrecy
>>on about August 1, 1947, and lasted about two years after the
>>threat being defended against never materialized. It was
>>apparently not the result of any crashed ET spacecraft or alien
>>corpses or machinery being found at Roswell, but something of
>>sufficiently disturbing importance as to trigger radical efforts
>>to meet the military threat thought to come from deep space.

<snip>

>>Roswell is hardly "closed". But neither the pro-UFO community or
>>the anti-UFO skeptic-debunker community wants to hear about it,
>>because it doesn't support either side's simplistic pet
>>theories.

>To Brad and all,

>Your post is very intriguing. You say that something very
>disturbing was discovered, but that it was not an alien craft
>with bodies.

>What was it then? How do you know? You won't say!

<snip>

Gildas,

I did say, but you omitted it. You seem to be forgetting that
the purpose of my post was to merely respond to a thread already
in progress. I was _not_ writing an article here on UpDates on
my findings and I explained why I was _not_ going to piecemeal
out the hundreds of pages of my book manuscript here on UpDates
into _hundreds_ of posts nor give away my best stuff which
belongs in a book, like every other Roswell "revelation" book,
where I have full opportunity to present _all_ of my case with
appropriate presentation, not some marginalized vanity press-
type web-based "publication."

Since I was _not_ attempting to write an article here, but just
respond to some postings, I was not trying to present a full
case, which again would require a book-length presentation.
Besides I did post the answer to your specific question long ago
here and it was ignored. I don't have time now to hunt it up and
I won't keep repeating myself. I barely have time to post this
response.


Brad Sparks









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             Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:07:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:41:27 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:39:33 -0500
>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:26:12 -0700
>>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

<snip>

Alfred, Et, Al,

>This is astonishing... A Mexican aviator making such
>disparagingly thoughtless comments regarding fellow Mexican
>aviators. I don't know about Mexican military aviation training
>procedures first hand, so I must withhold judgment on same. But
>I was once a manager and intimate designer of military aviation
>training programs, was in fact involved with them at multiple
>levels, intra and extra-Service, intra and extra-nationally and
>don't recall Mexican aviation and aviator competence _ever_
>coming into question, and I'm around aviator trainers all the
>time. Other nationalities come into question - frequently. The
>'world' comes to my home town to learn to fly and be safe while
>they fly.

I didn't see anything "disparaging or thoughtless" about
Alejandro's comments on "Mexican Air Force Pilots" (his fellow
aviators). There weren't any negative connotations or verbiage
used in his statement - he just stated the facts as he perceives
them.

>Moreover, this drug interdiction mission has American military
>training and oversight written all over it and I don't think
>they'd tolerate a whole lot of protracted incompetence and lack
>of experience given the importance of the interdiction
>mission.

Alfred, one only need to look at Iraq to see how much
"protracted incompetence" the American military would tolerate.

>That these qualified Mexican mission specialists - and ten hours
>of actual flightime is _plenty_ of training by the way - even
>conservatively speaking can't, because of a proclaimed lack of
>training and experience, be able to tell their asses from their

Alejandro, "in my view," approached this case in a very
professional, ethical and scientific manner, and presented
credible evidence in kind. He wasn't rude, cynical or negative
in any way. He should be applauded for his efforts.


Respectfully,

Frank Warren












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   Sep > Sep 15

                        SPI September London Lecture

From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:32:58 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:46:09 -0400
Subject: SPI September London Lecture


-----

From: Malcolm Robinson <malckyspi.nul>
To: Joes UFOGroup <ufologyinuk.nul>
Date: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 8:53 AM
Subject: SPI September London Lecture


Strange Phenomena Investigations

Present

'How The Sceptics Mind Works &'music And The Paranormal'

Guest Speakers

Chris Robinson & Melvyn Willin

Date: Saturday 25Th September 2004

Venue: The Sols Arms, 65-68 Hampstead Road, London, NW1 2PN.

Time: 3:00pm till 6:30pm.

Nearest Tube Station: Warren Street on the Northern Line.


Chris Robinson

He has been billed as the 'Dream Detective' someone who has
dreamt the future with amazing clarity and vision and foretold
events yet to come (which they do !) Ex police officer Chris
Robinson talents have been used by the British Secret Service
and countless police forces throughout the world. His psychic
abilities have been tested in the states by top scientists who
have marveled at his uncanny ability. Chris comes back to London
to speak to SPI about some of these tests and discuss more about
this amazing 'gift' (!) that he has.


Dr Melvyn Willin

There are so much more to reports of ghosts that just the
transparent floating figures that most people expect they are !
Ghosts come in all manner of forms, solid, transparent, ghosts
who apparently are 'aware' of 'you' and some who are not, some
who glide and navigate past furniture, and some who glide
'through' furniture, then you have the reports of 'ghostly
music'. Music that drifts through haunted rooms. Can this music
also be in the witnesses minds, like they say the reports of
ghosts are ? Ghostly music is 'part and parcel' of the
phenomenon of reported hauntings and Dr Melvyn Willin comes to
London to discuss his extensive research into this subject.

But not only this, Melvyn will also discuss those claims from
people who state that dead composers continue to inspire and
write from the 'other side'. Can this be true ? We all know
about ghosts, but the ghostly music is rarely spoken about at
public lectures. Melvyn will change all this

Dr Willin completed his Ph. D. in the Music Department of the
University of Sheffield in 1999 and is currently studying the
place of music in witchcraft and paganism in the Historical
Studies Department of the University of Bristol. He is still
actively Investigating music and the paranormal.

Entrance: Public =A37:00 Friends of SPI =A36:00. (Price Includes
Buffet)

Entrance is by payment at the door. However to book in advance
to secure your seat, call SPI Lectures on 07949 178 835. All
cheques/postal orders made payable to Strange Phenomena
Investigations. Strange Phenomena Investigations Web Site:

www.spiuk.net

Site under construction

SPI cannot be held responsible for the cancellation of speakers,
should this occur we will ensure an alternative speaker is
arranged. These meetings are designed for people with an
interest in strange phenomena that wish to find out more about
the strange world of the unexplained. Join like-minded
individuals who share this fascination for all things weird and
wonderful. Join in the after lecture debate and find out about
all the latest research. Please note that the views expressed by
our guest speakers may not necessarily reflect those of SPI as a
whole.

For more information on this and other SPI London Lectures for
2004, either check out our web site above, or call Malcolm
Robinson on 07949 178 835 Strange Phenomena Investigations Web
Site: www.spiuk.net

(Next SPI meeting after this one. Jane McCarthy, 'Spirit
Paranormal Photography' Saturday October 30th)

British UFO & Paranormal Research, Getting Involved.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Malcolm Robinson (SPI)
41b Handsworth Road,
Tottenham, London,
England, N17 6DB

Tel: 07949 178 835








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   Sep > Sep 15

                  Re: UFOs According To 'Wikipedia' - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 15:06:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:47:10 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs According To 'Wikipedia' - Boone


I love reading resource material on UFOs. Reference materials
such as dictionaries and encyclopedias often change. Wikipedia
is one of them. Easily accessible online and quite helpful.

Yet take a look at their entries for UFOs and Roswell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_flying_object

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_UFO_incident

Is it me or is something missing here?


Best,

Greg








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              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:36:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:55:03 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - King


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:14:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>Not being preoccupied with theory, I prefer more pragmatic
>approaches which eventually, we hope, will allow us to construct
>hypotheses on firmer grounds than are currently available. In
>the meantime, I remain convinced that UFOs and other major
>anomalies involve phenomena, whether ultimately found to be
>trivial or seminal, that lie beyond current knowledge. I also
>suspect - since no other explanation makes sense to me - that
>some or many experiences of the anomalous grow out of
>extraordinary, little-understood aspects of consciousness (an
>issue that in fact has been the focus of my research and major
>interest in recent years), but that other reports describe
>genuine, real-world events. Until we know more about them -
>which will not happen until science devotes its full resources
>to addressing these questions - a degree of intellectual
>modesty, apparently beyond John's capacity to sustain or even
>imagine, seems in order.


Jerry,

I find this epilogue one of the most salient posts in this
thread. If I am correct in thinking that the foregoing paragraph
represents your best attempt at crystallizing your views, then
it is the most literate, sane, and understandable position I
have yet to encounter. It is one with which I am in utter,
almost astonishing, agreement.

I am reminded that your interests lie far beyond UFOs. I think
the fact that you have interests in a diverse range of anomaly
cases (most having nothing to do with UFOs) provides a small
objectivity... perhaps what you call intellectual modesty.

ET intelligence likely has little to do with the Loch Ness
Monster, yet Nessie sightings occur. The anomaly exists...at
least in the minds of those witness to it. Your position
reasonably accepts the claim, but stops short of calling that a
tacit endorsement of one hypothesis over another.

Very refreshing, intellectually satisfying, and most appreciated
by one who occasionally has trouble navigating the labyrinthine
intellectual mind game which is the UFO field.

Thank you for that!

"...True rationalism is the awareness of one's limitations, the
intellectual modesty of those who know how often they err, and
how much they depend on others to have these mistakes corrected
or even for the little knowledge they may eventually possess..."
                                                    --J. Bowlby

and...

"No rational argument will have a rational effect on somebody
who does not want to adopt a rational attitude."
                                           --J.C. Garelli PhD

Kyle








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             Re: Pre-Analysis Report Of Ed Gerhman's Crash Site

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:31:51 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:56:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Pre-Analysis Report Of Ed Gerhman's Crash Site


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:59:29 -0500
>Subject: Re: Pre-Analysis Report Of Ed Gerhman's Crash Site

>>From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
>>To: UFO Updates" <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:39:53 -0600
>>Subject: Pre-Analysis Report Of Ed Gerhman's Crash Site

>>Fellow Listarians,

>>Report of Pre-Investigation of Ed Gerhman's Alleged Crash Site

>>As stated in a post last last Spring, I have completed an
>>informal observation of the crash site of an alleged UFO, as
>>located by Ed Gerhman.

>>Specimens and photos were taken of and from this location
>>and will be examined further.

>>The area, as Ed has described it, in many posts to UFO
>>Updates, is extremely interesting. Ed's description of the
>>site has not, in my opinion, been overstated.

>>In the future, once I have the test results from the
>>collected specimens (if feasible), I will give my full
>>opinion as to the site and Ed's research.

>>Please know and understand that I have no position statement on
>>the validity of the alien autopsy film and the controversy
>>surrounding it. My focus is solely an historical perspective on
>>the site as described by the cameraman and located by Ed.

>Wow! I'm really anticipating the shakedown. Please keep us
>posted!

I would like to add that from my personal knowledge, Wendy is a
person of strong character, fair-minded and honest as they come.
So I will be keenly interested in her findings.


 - Dick







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                HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 15:22:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:00:31 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings


HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings


Newsletter Release: September 14, 2004

Red Bluff, Quesnel B.C A Large Circle Of Light And Beam

Date: Early Fall/late Summer 2002
Time: Between 9:00 -10:00 p.m.

About 2 years ago in Quesnel in the Red Bluff area (I believe it
was early fall/late summer about 9-10 pm), a friend and I were
driving along when we noticed these lights in the sky. It was a
large circle of light (several hundred feet in diameter) with
about 8 smaller circles all perfectly the same size (each
probably about 1 tenth the size of the large center circle) that
rotated around the large center circular light, and would change
direction every so often. It was in the sky for at least an
hour. We weren't the only one's who saw it. There were people
all over the neighborhood standing at the end of their driveways
watching it.

Anyway, we drove around trying to find the source until we
finally saw a beam of light coming up from the forest way in the
distance. Once we saw this, we thought for sure someone was just
messing around with laser lights. I never did see anything in
the newspaper about it and was wondering if anyone else ever
reported it or found out if it was actually someone just playing
with lights. At the time, that's what I thought, but after
reading stories like the sighting at Shag Harbour, who knows?
Maybe a downed UFO signaling for repairs/help. haha..anyway, I
was just wondering :) I'm sure someone would have had to
reported the lights being that so many people were watching
them. Thanks for your time.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------

Wayne County, Pennsylvania Black Triangle

Date: November 2003
Time: Approx: 1:30 a.m.

Since I moved to PA, Wayne county, three years ago, I have seen
two, the first on was in mid Nov. 2003 at about 1:30am. I woke
up for no apparent reason and went to the kitchen window facing
northwest. I saw a big black triangle aircraft coming from
northern direction with white lights underneath on every corner
circular shape, it was only flying only approx. 1000 feet above
my home, and it did not make a sound moving very slowly at a
southern direction. The object did not have any exhaust or fumes
coming out of it. Tobyhanna Army Depot only 10 miles away it was
heading that direction.

I just wanted to know Brian, am I really seeing UFO's or is
there a real good explanation for the two objects I have
witnessed?

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Mississauga, Ontario Blue Circular Light

Date: July 2004 (?)
Time: 1:30 a.m.

Location of Sighting: Derry Road and Fifth Line.
Number of witnesses: 3
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Circular

Full Description of event/sighting: I am from Mississauga. For
my own curiosity, I would like to know if you can tell me what I
saw. My friends and I went to an "ABANDONED" area, which the
house on the property was burned down. We walked through the
trail towards the house. I had walked through this area about 50
times previously. This was the first time either of my two
friends had been there, and the first time I had brought a torch
(fire). About 30-40 feet in, I see this blue circular light
about ten feet in the air. There was some sort of glow, so to
speak, around this light and I had absolutely no idea what it
was.

At this point we stopped walking. This light actually started
dancing from left to right, and I was just in astonishment
because there was nothing underneath the light. BUT, it's not as
if the light was illuminating the surrounding area, because it
really wasn't, but the moonlight was enough to show there was
nothing under it. There was no noise whatsoever.

I few seconds later, this object had magically started to come
at us literally. I still thought that someone had a light, and
it was a homeless person just finding a place to sleep, even
though I SAW that none was under the light. I, at this point,
basically started to scream, "RUN, RUN, RUN!!", over and over. I
ended up flipping over a broken down tree in the middle of the
path. When we got the car the light was mysteriously gone. I
have not told many of my friends about this, because I wouldn't
believe them if they told me. I had dropped one of my shoes and
my phone in there.

We came back 10 minutes later because I couldn't afford to buy a
new phone, and considering I was not alone, I decided to go and
get it. On our drive back, nobody was walking on the side of the
road, and nobody was in the trail when we came back. I went in
alone, because my friends were too scared to come, and the only
way I found my phone was because my friend was calling it.
Anyways, I am not e-mailing you this to sell a story, and try to
make any money in any way, but my friends and I are only curious
as to what we had seen, and you seem to know a lot about these
mysterious lights. I didn't even know about "orbs" until I
started researching about this stuff. Please reply to me at your
earliest convenience, and any information would be greatly
appreciated.

Additional Information:

Hi Brian

I thank you responding so quickly. I will get the other two
witnesses to send you a detailed e-mail with what they saw,
possibly indicating some more information that I may have left
out.

You can do whatever you see fit with the information I have
given you. Just like you said, someone may have experienced
something similar, and may make a report of it as well.

Considering the distance this object was from us, I would say
that it must have been about one foot in diameter.

At the closest point the object must have been approximately 15
feet away from us. Even at this distance, I could not smell
anything strange in the air, but I am not sure if one of the
people that I was with had noticed anything. I will make sure he
answers all these question in his e-mail to you without reading
my responses so I do not throw him off at all.

My friend, known as (removed), did most definitely shine the
flame or torch at this object, and I am almost certain that a
few seconds after he did, this object had began to come at us.
This entire time, the only noise was coming from the three of
us.

It seemed to me that there was always a mist or glow, so to
speak, around this object, and I am not sure if it developed
into a trail once it moved. We went back during the day because
my (removed) thought there was an incline through the path in
front of us because the light was sort of high up, but I told
him and then showed him the ground is level. We never really
paid any attention to circles in the grass but if any circles
have been made, it would be very easy to see that considering
there is not a lot of movement there.

Thank you, Brian, for all of your time, and I will get the other
two witnesses to e-mail you with their version of what happened.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-------------------------

Linton, Oregon Brilliant Strobing Lights

Date: September 3/5, 2004
Time: Approx: 10:00 p.m.

Location of Sighting: Linton, OR 9north of Portland)
Number of witnesses: 2; 4.
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Disc

Full Description of event/sighting: One two evenings, 9/3 and
9/5, approx 10:00 p.m.., my partner was outside and called to me
to come out and take a look in the sky. I went out, and we used
inexpensive binoculars (10 X 50 WA) ... saw clearly a brilliant-
strobing-lights object hovering in the sky. Clear night, many
stars. It was far away, but quite visible. I framed it in my
sight line with the telephone wires and a tree, and it hovered
within that space for around half an hour. We are in Linton, and
observed it to the north, looking across the Willamette River,
but could not ascertain how far away it was. I saw it hover and
shift position, tilting from horizontal to a vertical position,
then rotating slowly enough to see the underside, then flatten
out to horizontal again. We saw four colors of lights-- red,
white, green and blue-- distinctly, but not all at the same
time. They flashed and rotated around the edge-- or appeared to
through the binoculars. I wondered at the time if this was one
of "ours", some advanced technology being tested out here. In
fact, I recall airliners in the sky taking off from the Portland
Airport, and they must have seen this object, also. I thought--
 surely they (the airport personnel) would have knowledge of
this sort of advanced technology craft (maybe a military test
craft, and the military contacted them?) if planes are just
flying to and fro out there while this thing hovers...???

As I stated, we saw this object two nights, in approximately the
same position in the sky. On the second sighting, our two
friends joined us outside to see it as well.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------------

Portland Oregon Bright Strobing Object Video

Date: September 7, 2004
Time: 10:20 p.m.

To Brian Vike,

On Tuesday 9-7-2004, I stepped outside at 10:20 pm local time in
Portland OR, USA, observing a very bright strobing object in the
night sky. It was located due west, about 25 degrees above the
western horizon. It appeared to be glowing very brightly at
first, pitched at a 45 degree angle, and much brighter/larger
than any similar objects that I have seen of this type. It moved
to my right and down toward the western horizon slowly as I
watched it, while dimming somewhat in the process. Duration of
this sighting was about 10 minutes, when the object became
obscured behind some trees.

Viewing conditions: There were few if any clouds, generally good
viewing conditions, given the high amounts of atmospheric haze
that we seem to have in recent years.

The object appeared to be shedding something as if it was a
byproduct of combustion. This was coming from the lower left of
the object and could be seen with normal vision, as occasional
spurts of varying intensity blasting perpendicular to the
object's "body". This is seen as a gaseous curtain in the
brighter still images (and in the one rotated with text).

Quickly I seized the opportunity to set up a low power telescope
with digital camera attachment on a tripod. Several pictures
were taken at different exposure settings, including a short
video movie. The object remained bright for the first pictures
but then began to change, becoming dimmer as it came closer to
the horizon, moving to my right. The setup I used provided 45x
high quality optical zoom.

The camera did not sit level in my setup, but was pitched at a
40 degree angle down to the right (I did not want to miss the
photo opportunity by readjusting it). Because the shots were
taken through a telescope without mirrors, the image is also
rotated 180 degrees, so appears upside down. Only the picture
with text added has been rotated and cropped 800 x 600 to
correct the orientation to what I had observed. All other
pictures are straight out of the camera.

Attached are four pictures plus one movie,
P9070346.jpg, 4 sec exp, f 3.5, iso 100, 10 x 4.5 = 45x opt. zoom
P9070347.jpg, 4 sec exp, f 3.5, iso 100, 10 x 4.5 = 45x opt. zoom
P9070347rota1.jpg, same as above, rotated, cropped, text added,
P9070351.mov, 1.2mb file size, about 24 seconds long.
The movie does not clearly show the "tail" easily seen in the
other still photos.
P9070354.jpg, 1/10 sec exp, f 4.0, iso 100, 10 x 4.5 = 45x opt. zoom

The 4.5 power telescope and 10x zoom camera combined in tandem
have a 1 degree field of view when the camera is at 10x zoom.
The object shows large in these photos, filling 4.8% of the
field of view (uncropped). If it was 40 miles distant from me
(my guess) then the object's size would be about 180 feet long.
However, I don't know how far away it actually was. If farther
away it is larger, if nearer then it was smaller.

The reason I think it was 40 miles away is because I think the
gaseous curtain may be being released into a denser part of the
upper atmosphere which still contains some oxygen. Given the 25
degrees angle above the horizon, the altitude would then be
about 56,000 feet or 10.6 miles. The air density there is about
1/10th that of air at sea level, per my engineering handbook.

Some questions remain. Whose technology is this, and what is the
possible purpose (and substance) of placing/consuming materials
in the upper atmosphere? Is this one of the reasons, minor or
major, for the increased atmospheric haze that many of us see in
today's skies?

Thanks for looking,

Thank you very much to the witness for the report, pictures and
clip.

Video clip Portland Oregon Bright Strobing Object 1.11mbs
To view clip and pictures:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1848

------------------------------------

Spokane, Washington Long Narrow Triangle

Date: September 7, 2004
Time: 7:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Long narrow triangle.

Full Description of event/sighting: I was leaving my home by car
with my son. We were headed west. The sun was setting and the
sky was clear with a few wispy clouds. I noticed an object very
bright above the horizon. About half the size of the moon. It
looked like a jet with a very short jet trail behind it heading
north at an odd angle toward the ground. I kept watching it as I
was headed west across town on the freeway. It wasn't moving,
just hovering.

I pointed it out to my son. He agreed it was strange. It was
brighter and more colorful than the few clouds lit by the sun
set. We watched it for about 8 minutes until to was out of sight
behind some trees. I wish I had pulled over to observe it at the
time, but was anxious to get to my husband so he could see it.
Unfortunately from where he was there was too many other
obstructions in the way. When I saw the story on Rense.com this
morning titled "Portland Oregon Bright Strobing Object Video " I
realized it was the same object we saw!

Thank you to the witness for the report.

----------------------------

Boca Raton, Florida Disappearing And Appearing Object

Date: September 9, 2004
Time: 3:00 p.m.

I saw this on Thursday in S. Fla at 3:00 p.m. I have a six
minute video of it on a Sony digital handicam. I witnessed it
with a friend. definitely not a plane as it hovered for 5
minutes in one place.

Additional Information:

Thanks for getting back to me Brian. Here are some more details.

The object was moving slowly form my East to the West. The sky
was partly cloudy that is why the images seem grey, because I
tried to see it close up the clouds were behind it. The object
kept disappearing and appearing and I saw it by its distinctive
glow or metallic reflection in the sun. It was under where the
planes usually fly. There are no military areas anywhere by me.
I am close to Boca Raton about 40 miles south of Palm Beach
airport and 20 north of Ft Lauderdale airport. The movement was
erratic. First it moved like a plane, just a forward motion then
it would reappear further down very fast. The last 4 minutes I
was able to see it, had it hovering or moving ever so slightly
around the clouds. It appeared orb like and stayed that way
throughout. What intrigued me was the way it moved and the
intense glow. I watch the skies a lot and this was highly
unique. There was no sound, it was around 2 miles away (just a
gestimation)maybe 10,000ft high and again had a silvery color
with and intense reflection or internal glow. There were other
planes flying by this thing which helped my perspective and
adding to the mystery of what it could be. I am basically
sharing this with you in the hopes someone else in my area saw
it. I am very confident it wasn't a conventional craft, plane,
rocket etc, but it is a UFO for now, because I can't identify
it. That doesn't make it an ET craft either, but it was fun to
watch to say the least.

Thanks for listening.

Pictures can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1847

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Mount Cobb, Pennsylvania Sighting

Date: September 10, 2004
Time: 10:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 4
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: unknown
Full Description of event/sighting: At approx. 10:00 p.m.
eastern time, we saw what we thought was a bright star. As we
continued looking at it, the object changed colors, from green
to red to dark orange to white as though it was spinning. The
object was hovering just south or left from the big dipper, we
were facing northwest. As the object was hovering it would move
from left to right. After watching the object for approx. 15
minutes the object flew with speed towards northwest horizon.

Additional Information:

Hi Brian,

On September 10th, 2004 at approx. 10pm - 10:15 I saw the object
first then I called my mother and my two sons from our home, we
saw an object was northwest and left from the big dipper, the
night was crystal-clear. We did not see the moon. The object
stood out because it was brighter than a star or planet and it
flashed colors. As we looked at it through binoculars we were
able to see the colors clearly. The colors were rotating from
green, red, dark orange, to white. On the top of the object
above the rotating light was a very bright white. The object was
hovering then it moved to the left but not straight, it was in
an angle, then to the right.

It stood there for a few minutes then it started to move
northwest direction and it looked like it was moving up in
elevation the color of the object was like a yellow. As the
object left to the northwest it arched downward not straight
like a airplane. My older son told me it was a rounded triangle
shape. We all saw the same thing. The strange thing about this
was that military planes have flight patterns through here every
evening or night, and when we were looking at the object the
military were flying to right of the object at a northwest
direction and they were flying on the left of the object going
at a southeast direction. The object was much brighter, and much
bigger and much higher than the military planes. When the object
disappeared from the horizon, we looked up and the big dipper
was still there.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-------------------------

Peoria, Arizona Oval, Sphere

Date: September 12, 2004
Time: 3:00 a.m.

Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Oval, Sphere

Full Description of event/sighting: Hi Brian. I contacted you
about two months ago. I reported a bright star like object in
the sky. It is rather large and hovers in one spot. When its
hovering it is really bright. When it moves it moves up, down,
right, and left the light becomes very dull. There appears to be
a red light shining from the center of the light. When I zoom in
with my camera it looks as though there are many different
colors. This is the exact same object that my mother and I saw
the last time. Only this time below the large object there was a
smaller object. I couldn't make out what it was doing there. It
seemed to be hovering right below the larger one. This object
must be rather far away because whenever I zoom in on it with my
camera it looks like a little dot. Even though it doesn't look
far away at all when I look into the sky.

But when I zoom into the photo what I see is bizarre. I don't
understand why my photos never come out the way the object
appears. They come out in different shapes and colors. Its as if
whenever the object is moving it takes the form of a sphere and
when its hovering it appears oval. We were able to view it from
my backyard for about an hour and then it had moved too far
south, out of my view from the backyard. I was to tired to
follow it to the front yard. These new photos that I have
resemble the ones I sent you before only the shape is more
ovalish. Well, thanks for reading this I appreciate. If you want
me to send you the photos please let me know.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Brisbane, Australia Light Hovers Then Splits In Two

Date: September 12, 2004
Time: 6:00 p.m.

Hello Brian

You are the first one I have shared this with.

I live in the northern suburbs of Brisbane in Queensland,
Australia. On Saturday night (Sept. 11) at about 1830 I was
walking my dogs on the sports ground near my house where I walk
every night. I live at a high elevation and have 270 degree
views. As I was about half way around the ground, I was looking
north toward an especially bright star, wondering what planet it
was. As I was looking, what seemed to be another, smaller star,
the same size and brightness as most of the others, started
moving fast in a straight line. It looked just like a moving
(NOT shooting) star (I walk every night and see plenty of
shooting stars). I was looking due north, and it appeared to be
moving toward the east - toward the Pacific Ocean. I am positive
of the direction because I also walk there in the morning and I
know where the sun rises. It was too high and too fast to be a
plane. I have worked at airports for 16 years and travelled a
lot so I know what I'm talking about. After about 3 seconds the
object abruptly stopped, stayed still momentarily, split into
two, and disappeared. I have not seen anything like it since.

Yours faithfully,

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research
Home - Phone 250 845 2189

email: hbccufo.nul

Website: http://www.hbccufo.com

Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com

HBCC UFO RESEARCH Newsletter At:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 15

                    Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:12:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:02:44 -0400
Subject: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale



Hello All,

Jaime Maussan is showing his real interest in UFOs... Money!
You can buy the 'History' for 350.00 Mexican Pesos or
$33.00 USD.

Visit:

http://www.homolongevus.tv/portal/con_histori.htm

Translation with:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr

Mexican Air Force FLIR's video lights are not UFOs they are oil
well gas flames!

http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/REFERENCE_DATA.html

My own video recording showing I was right.

http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/CANTARELL_SEP_2004/index.html


Best regards,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director.nul
www.alcione.org
(non-profit)








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 15

             Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -

From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 21:58:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:04:56 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:12:20 -0300
>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:26:12 -0700
>>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

<snip>

>I must point out, again, that apparently Captain Franz was
>taking pictures from _three_times_ the altitude of the
>government plane.

_Almost_ three times. It was precisely 2.6956521 times.

11500ft/31000ft = 2.6956521

>Surely this impacts on the field of view? What was the vertical
>angle from the plane?

You are the scientist, I was the pilot. What are yor results?








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 15

             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:56:45 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:08:03 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:25:45 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:53:35 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>>Well said as always. If we're going to call their favorite
>>doctrine "DOH", perhaps it's time to add a new word to the
>>vocabulary to characterize them. I propose that if we are to
>>bring DOH into ufological language, we ought to acknowledge
>>where that wonderful phrase comes from, giving all due credit to
>t>hat beloved mope Homer Simpson, who groans "doh!" whenever he's
>>screwed up, as he does every time. DOH advocates, therefore, are
>>"simpsonists."

>May I propose an alternative designation... with a double
>entendre: "homeric".

Congratulations to Bruce, Jerry and Dick, on devising three new
insults for people who disagree with you. Is this what the stars
of American ufology are reduced to?

After my previous post, a reader wrote to me off-list saying:
"Name calling is one way of keeping a discussion from making any
real progress. Certain individuals on the UFO UpDates List
often resort to the childish antics when a discussion or topic
is actually getting somewhere. That way UFOs remain a mystery
and there is no conflict in their belief systems." Very nicely
put.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 15

                NASA Transfers X-37 To Unidentified US Agency

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:24:01 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:09:50 -0400
Subject: NASA Transfers X-37 To Unidentified US Agency


Source: Space.Com

http://space.com/news/nasa_x37_040914.html

09-14-04


NASA Transfers X-37 To Unidentified US Agency
By Brian Berger
Space News Staff Writer


WASHINGTON =97 NASA has transferred its X-37 technology
demonstration program to an unidentified U.S. government agency
that plans to go ahead with atmospheric drop tests of the
prototype space plane next year.

NASA spokesman Michael Braukus said Sept. 13 the U.S. space
agency would remain involved in the X-37 program, but would no
longer run the show. The lead, he said, has been given to a
government agency that for now NASA is not permitted to name.

"The government entity is classified," Braukus said. "We will be
able to acknowledge who that partner is when they give us
permission." Braukus said he expected to receive that permission
soon.

News that lead responsibility for the X-37 program was changing
hands was first reported by the Desert News, a newspaper
covering Mojave, Calif., and surrounding areas. The newspaper
also reported that the X-37 would be carried aloft for next
year=92s drop tests by the White Knight, the Scaled Composites-
built aircraft that carried SpaceShipOne aloft in June for its
historic manned suborbital space shot, the first in a privately
funded effort.

Braukus said Scaled Composites would be involved in the X-37
approach and landing demonstrations next year, but could not say
whether the Mojave-based company would be using the White Knight
or some other aircraft. The B-52 aircraft that NASA normally
uses for such drop tests would not be used, a decision made by
the agency now in charge of the X-37 program, he said.

"The cost analysis favored Scaled Composites," Braukus said.

Scaled Composites spokeswoman Kay LeFebvre would not confirm the
company=92s involvement in the planned dropped tests and referred
questions about the White Knight=92s role in the X-37 program to
American Mojave Aerospace Ventures. That company, a Paul Allen
and Burt Rutan partnership that owns SpaceShipOne and its
carrier aircraft, recently announced that it would make its
first official try for the $10 million Ansari X-Prize Sept. 29.

A telephone call placed to Jeff Johnson at American Mojave
Aerospace Ventures was not immediately returned.

NASA's involvement in the X-37 dates back to 1998, when the
project was selected as the first of a planned series of flight
demonstrators dubbed Future X. At the time, NASA agreed to share
the X-37=92s projected $173 million cost with Boeing and the U.S.
Air Force. After the Air Force announced in 2001 that it would
stop funding the project, NASA told Boeing that the company
would have to submit a new proposal for the X-37 to be eligible
for additional funding.

After persistent prodding from U.S. Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-
Calif.), NASA in 2002 awarded Boeing a $301 million contract for
two X-37 vehicles instead of one. One of those vehicles would
conduct a series of drop tests within the atmosphere, paving the
way for the flight of the orbit and re-entry vehicle in 2006.

But NASA directed Boeing in late 2003 to throttle back on
development of the orbit and re-entry vehicle and has since
directed Boeing to stop work on that part of the program
altogether. X-37 was dealt a further setback earlier this year
when a NASA review concluded that the program was not a good fit
with the agency=92s new space exploration agenda.

Braukus saidan orbital X-37 flight remains on hold but the
atmospheric tests are back on track now that NASA has a new
partner willing to take the lead on the program. Braukus said
NASA has spent $325 million on the program to date.

Boeing spokesman Ed Meme said Sept. 13 that the X-37 program is
no longer managed by Boeing NASA Systems and is now under the
purview of Boeing Space and Intelligence Systems. Eric Warren, a
spokesman for Boeing=92s El Segundo, Calif.-based operations,
could not immediately identify the government agency now in
charge of X-37.








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                Super-Earths: The Next Step In Planet Finding

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:28:40 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:11:40 -0400
Subject: Super-Earths: The Next Step In Planet Finding



Source: The Christian Science Monitor

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0915/p25s01-stss.html

04-15-04


Super-Earths: The Next Step In Planet Finding

By Michele Thaller
csmonitor.com

PASADENA CA -- When it comes to the subject of extra-solar
planets, you've got to move fast.

Case in point: whenever I give a public talk about all the new
planets that have been recently found around other stars, I
always check the Planet Quest website to see what the planet
count is for that day. The reason is simple: it changes almost
every day.

Finding new planets is becoming a popular cottage industry for
several groups of astronomers, and it's hard to keep track of
every new planet they find. Just for the record, as of September
8, 2004, there are 127 known planets outside of our Solar
System.

But recently, three different teams of astronomers announced
discoveries which were more significant than the usual, 'ho-hum'
detection of a new planet. Not only are we finding smaller and
smaller planets, as we get better at it, but it seems that we
may have also found an entirely new kind of planet, which some
astronomers are calling a "Super-Earth."

Let's start with the basics: so far, almost all of the
exoplanets we know about ("exo" means "outside", indicating that
these planets are outside our solar system) have been detected
by watching their parent stars wobble. Whenever two objects
orbit around each other, they actually both orbit around their
combined center of mass. It's a little weird to think about it,
but it's not entirely correct to say that the Earth orbits the
Sun.

Both the Earth and the Sun orbit around their shared center of
mass, which is hard to notice because the Sun is so much more
massive than the Earth (about 300,000 times more massive,
actually). In the case of the Earth-Sun orbital system, the
center of mass is physically inside the Sun, although not at the
Sun's exact center. The wobble our planet induces in the Sun is
so small, that if we were living in another planetary system
looking back at our Sun, with our current technology, we
wouldn't be able to detect it. But we probably would be able to
detect Jupiter. Jupiter is over 300 times more massive than
Earth, so the Jupiter-Sun center of mass is a bit farther away
from the center of the Sun. That wobble is big enough to notice,
even from very far away.

Detecting a planet is even easier if you've got something the
mass of Jupiter (or bigger) in a closer orbit around its star.
The closer a planet is, the stronger the attraction of gravity
between it and the star, and the bigger the star's wobble.
That's the reason astronomers weren't too surprised when the
first exoplanet we found turned out to be very massive, and very
close to its star.

And since then, we've gotten pretty good at finding giant gas
planets that are orbiting scorchingly close to their stars. But
these worlds are so different from our own system of planets, I
often feel we don't really share a true kinship with them. As
fascinating as these hot, giant worlds are, we can't easily
imagine these planets harboring life or being places we could
set foot on someday -there're really just big blobs of super-
heated gas.

In the last few years, astronomers have gotten better at
detecting and accurately measuring the star-wobbles induced by
planets, and soon enough they were able to find Jupiter-mass
planets in Jupiter-like orbits, then Saturn-mass ones.

That's intriguing, because as I said before, that's what our own
solar system would look like to outsiders with similar
technology. They wouldn't be able to detect Earth, just the
giant planets. Maybe some of these new systems have smaller
planets too, that we just aren't able to make out yet. NASA has
several future missions planned that should be able to see the
wobbles created by Earth-mass planets, but for the time being,
it looks like astronomers will just have to wait.

Recently, three teams of astronomers have announced discoveries
of the smallest planets yet. They're still much more massive
than the Earth, but for the first time, we may have detected
planets that are more similar to the Earth in composition, at
least compared to giant gas planets.

Two groups, from the Carnegie Institute of Washington and the
University of Texas, have now found planets with approximately
twenty times the mass of Earth, about the size of the planet
Neptune. In the same week, a European team of planet-finders
pushed the limit even farther, claiming the detection of a
planet just fourteen times as massive as Earth. All these new
planets are much closer to their stars than the planet Mercury
is to our Sun, so chances are, these are still pretty hot places
we're talking about - not a great place to search for life
either. But what's really amazing about these specific planet
detections is that some astronomers are beginning to suspect
that for the first time, they've found terrestrial planets.

The word "terrestrial" means "Earth-like," but as I said, these
planets would be completely scorched, almost certainly lacking
liquid water or much of an atmosphere, for that matter. But the
reason these planets are more like the Earth is that they may
have solid surfaces.

Going back to that planetarium talk of a few weeks ago, someone
asked me if it would be possible to have solid, rocky planets
with more mass than the Earth. For the moment, the Earth is the
largest terrestrial planet that we know of. Is there a limit to
how large rocky planets can be? Our computer models of how
planets form suggest there may indeed be one.

Planets form out of giant, orbiting disks of gas and dust around
new stars, basically the stuff left over from the birth of the
star itself. The seeds of planets sweep up material as they
orbit through the disk, and as they accumulate more mass, their
gravity becomes stronger. The increased gravity attracts even
more mass, which gives the young planet even more gravity, etc.
etc.

All planets, both terrestrial and gas giants, probably start out
this way, but at some point, the mass of a planet reaches a
trigger point, and the whole process gets a little out of
control. After this point, the gravity of a forming planet can
pull in a huge envelope of gas in a relatively short amount of
time, and you've got yourself another Jupiter or Saturn.

This limit between forming a terrestrial planet versus a gas
giant is not well understood, nor is it a specific mass. It
probably depends somewhat on the distance from the new planet to
its star. Farther out in the disk, more gas is able to cool and
condense, leaving more material for planet-forming. Because of
this, a planet might reach the "point of no return" at a smaller
mass than one closer in, which has hotter, sparser gas to work
with. We're just not really sure yet how the whole process
works. But our models do seem to show that this mass limit is
somewhere around fifteen times the mass of the Earth,
suspiciously close to all three of the new planets.

Watching a star wobble only tells you how massive the planet is;
it doesn't give you any information about whether the planet is
rocky, or gaseous, how physically large it is, or anything like
that. So why do astronomers suspect that these planets might be
rocky, solid bodies?

For one thing, all three planets are likely to be very hot, as
they're all very close to their stars. Why might this be a clue
about their composition? Simply put, astronomers are not sure
that a 10-20 Earth-mass planet can hold on to a large gaseous
atmosphere at those temperatures.

Although it might seem strange, our atmosphere, just like
anything else on the surface of the Earth, is held down by
gravity. The more massive a planet is, the more atmosphere it
can hold down. But temperature is important too. It's much
harder for a small-mass planet to hold on to a hot atmosphere,
as the hotter gasses get, the faster they move around and bump
into each other. At a high enough temperature, gases will
literally "boil off" the planet, escaping into space.

Most of the planets we've found racing around the stars in
tight, hot, orbits have at least the mass of Jupiter - enough to
hold down a large atmosphere even at high temperature. But can a
planet with only ten Earth masses hold on to a lot of hot gas?
Astronomer aren't sure, and some suspect not.

If that's the case, then we may have just detected the first
terrestrial-type worlds outside our own inner solar system. So
what might these planets be like?

They would almost certainly be tidally locked to their stars,
with one side facing the star (and getting torched), while the
other side perpetually gazes out into space (and freezes). The
planet Mercury is much like that, being simultaneously one of
the hottest places in the Solar System and one of the coldest
(interestingly enough, Mercury is not completely tidally locked
to the Sun, so the hot side and the cold side switch every
couple of years).

But even a harsh environment like that might have a few tricks
up its sleeve; on August 3rd, 2004, NASA launched the MESSENGER
spacecraft off to take a very close look at Mercury, as
astronomers had detected some evidence that there might be water
ice (!) on its surface. That's right; up in the polar regions,
there are some craters that never see the light of day, but
remain permanently in shadow, even as the rest of the planet's
surface gets repeatedly scorched, then frozen. Something in
those craters is highly reflective, and looks a whole lot like
water ice.

Now, all three of these new planets are much close to their
stars than Mercury is to our Sun, and their temperatures would
be even hotter. But is it possible that there might be a tiny
temperate zone between the day and night sides of these planets?

Perhaps. The best guess we have right now is that these planets
are unlikely places for life, but not impossible places. And
they may be the first places that it would be possible to
actually set foot on outside our Solar System.








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   Sep > Sep 15

                Playboy' Not Alienating For E.T.-Loving Women

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:31:24 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:14:12 -0400
Subject: Playboy' Not Alienating For E.T.-Loving Women


Source: NCBuy.Com

http://www.ncbuy.com/news/2004-09-14/1010567.html

09-14-04


Playboy' Not Alienating For E.T.-Loving Women

VALCOURT, Montreal (Wireless Flash) -- Posing nude to promote
extraterrestrial communication isn't for everyone - but it
helps when you have a body that's out of this world.

That's the naked truth according to Shizue Koneko, who is one of
three followers of the Raelian religion posing in the latest
issue of Playboy Magazine.

Koneko is the personal assistant for Rael, the former race car
driver who leads the E.T.-oriented religion.

She says she was honored to be picked for the spread because she
feels it honors both her philosophy and, as she explains, "...my
outside beauty, which is also important."

She is especially proud because she is 38 years old - much
older than the mag's usual models - and believes Rael's
philosophy of sexual freedom and "love through action" is
helping her keep her girlish figure.

The Playboy issue featuring Koneko officially hits stands
tomorrow (Sep. 15) and she will be appearing at a special
autograph session this Sunday (Sep. 19) in Montreal.








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   Sep > Sep 15

                          Enceladus Straight Lines?

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:29:45 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:15:34 -0400
Subject: Enceladus Straight Lines?


Are these intelligent meteor impact trails or signs of Alien
activity? Top middle and right of

http://www.rednova.com/news/images/1/2004/09/14/enceladus_1big_moon_saturn.jpg

Enceladus is a newly discovered Moon of Saturn


Kind wishes to all

Col
http://www.colsweb.com









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             Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:05:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:17:09 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:07:36 -0700
>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:39:33 -0500
>>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:26:12 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

><snip>

>Alfred, Et, Al,

>>This is astonishing... A Mexican aviator making such
>>disparagingly thoughtless comments regarding fellow Mexican
>>aviators. I don't know about Mexican military aviation training
>>procedures first hand, so I must withhold judgment on same. But
>>I was once a manager and intimate designer of military aviation
>>training programs, was in fact involved with them at multiple
>>levels, intra and extra-Service, intra and extra-nationally and
>>don't recall Mexican aviation and aviator competence _ever_
>>coming into question, and I'm around aviator trainers all the
>>time. Other nationalities come into question - frequently. The
>>'world' comes to my home town to learn to fly and be safe while
>>they fly.

>I didn't see anything "disparaging or thoughtless" about
>Alejandro's comments on "Mexican Air Force Pilots" (his fellow
>aviators). There weren't any negative connotations or verbiage
>used in his statement - he just stated the facts as he perceives
>them.

Uh-huh, I'll let the professionals he evaluated make their own
call on that, Sir.

Imagine yourself at the business end of the Captain's
assessment. I daresay a few "el grande pendahos" would be thrown
around, at the least.

>>Moreover, this drug interdiction mission has American military
>>training and oversight written all over it and I don't think
>>they'd tolerate a whole lot of protracted incompetence and lack
>>of experience given the importance of the interdiction
>>mission.

>Alfred, one only need to look at Iraq to see how much
>"protracted incompetence" the American military would tolerate.

Apples and oranges, Sir. I was career military. What's your
experience? Armchair O'Riley Talking points? [g].

>>That these qualified Mexican mission specialists - and ten hours
>>of actual flightime is _plenty_ of training by the way - even
>>conservatively speaking can't, because of a proclaimed lack of
>>training and experience, be able to tell their asses from their

>Alejandro, "in my view," approached this case in a very
>professional, ethical and scientific manner, and presented
>credible evidence in kind. He wasn't rude, cynical or negative
>in any way. He should be applauded for his efforts.


Alejadro? Chummy, in my view.

Moreover, rude? Certainly. Cynical? A slight squeeze and he
fairly drips with it. Negative? Well, that will usually follow
the preceding two.  We must agree to disagree, Sir.


>Respectfully,

>Frank Warren

...With equal respect, Mr. Warren.

alienview.nul
  www.AlienView.net








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             Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:21:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:12:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Lehmberg


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:12:57 -0700
>Subject: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>Jaime Maussan is showing his real interest in UFOs... Money!
>You can buy the 'History' for 350.00 Mexican Pesos or
>$33.00 USD.

How does a story made available for a reasonable fee detract
from the story, whatever personal problems one may have with Mr.
Maussan?

Richard Hall has a book that he's selling... is he also
suspect?

Could it be that you unmask a little of _your_ real interest in
this affair, Sir, with this suggestive, ad hominum, observation
regarding Mr. Maussan's lawful and ethical activity?

It could be argued that you are being "rude", "cynical", and
even "negative", Mr. Franz...

alienview.nul
 www.AlienView.net









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                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:46:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:14:34 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:56:45 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:25:45 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:53:35 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

><snip>

>>>Well said as always. If we're going to call their favorite
>>>doctrine "DOH", perhaps it's time to add a new word to the
>>>vocabulary to characterize them. I propose that if we are to
>>>bring DOH into ufological language, we ought to acknowledge
>>>where that wonderful phrase comes from, giving all due credit to
>>t>hat beloved mope Homer Simpson, who groans "doh!" whenever he's
>>>screwed up, as he does every time. DOH advocates, therefore, are
>>>"simpsonists."

>>May I propose an alternative designation... with a double
>>entendre: "homeric".

>Congratulations to Bruce, Jerry and Dick, on devising three new
>insults for people who disagree with you. Is this what the stars
>of American ufology are reduced to?

>After my previous post, a reader wrote to me off-list saying:
>"Name calling is one way of keeping a discussion from making any
>real progress. Certain individuals on the UFO UpDates List
>often resort to the childish antics when a discussion or topic
>is actually getting somewhere. That way UFOs remain a mystery
>and there is no conflict in their belief systems." Very nicely
>put.



Waaaaah! This is only the beginning, Mr. Rimmer. There comes a
time to fight fire with fire. Whereas the insults from your camp
have largely been obfuscations and distortions, what comes from
this side of the fence is decidedly more accurate and
descriptive. It's a new age; get used to it.

Additionally, the pointed comment: "...Certain individuals on
the UFO UpDates List often resort to the childish antics when a
discussion or topic is actually getting somewhere. That way UFOs
remain a mystery and there is no conflict in their belief
systems..." actually points three fingers back at yourself if
you didn't realize it...

You want to fight with an effete epee and your opposition begins
to opt for fine Japanese swords with the skill to use them. I
submit that the stars of American ufology are tired of your
murky meteorological explanations regarding their damp pants
legs, Sir.


alienview.nul
www.AlienView.net









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                          Here Comes Hurricane Ivan

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:57:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:16:24 -0400
Subject: Here Comes Hurricane Ivan


...Be away from a computer 'till Sunday folks... buggin' out
ahead of "Ivan."


"Arrrrr, me hearties"!

alienview.nul
   www.AlienView.net









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              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:25:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:23:58 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:56:45 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:25:45 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:53:35 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell


>>>Well said as always. If we're going to call their favorite
>>>doctrine "DOH", perhaps it's time to add a new word to the
>>>vocabulary to characterize them. I propose that if we are to
>>>bring DOH into ufological language, we ought to acknowledge
>>>where that wonderful phrase comes from, giving all due credit to
>>>that beloved mope Homer Simpson, who groans "doh!" whenever he's
>>>screwed up, as he does every time. DOH advocates, therefore,
>>>are "simpsonists."

>>May I propose an alternative designation... with a double
>>entendre: "homeric".

>Congratulations to Bruce, Jerry and Dick, on devising three new
>insults for people who disagree with you. Is this what the stars
>of American ufology are reduced to?

To the question, "Is this what magonians have been reduced to?",
the answer is:

Unfortunately, yes. That's what happens when one doesn't have a
sense of humor coupled with a skin so thin that it may escape
detection even by the most powerful electron microscope. Unable
to make a rational case, John Rimmer and his humorless
companions are reduced to hissy-fits like the one above.

If you can't argue cogently for DOH (or are you now denying that
you advocate the Deluded Observer Hypothesis?), John, you might
at least try laughing once in a while. Lighten up, big guy!


Jerry Clark









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              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:46:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:28:10 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:36:08 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:14:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell


Hi, Kyle,

>>Not being preoccupied with theory, I prefer more pragmatic
>>approaches which eventually, we hope, will allow us to construct
>>hypotheses on firmer grounds than are currently available. In
>>the meantime, I remain convinced that UFOs and other major
>>anomalies involve phenomena, whether ultimately found to be
>>trivial or seminal, that lie beyond current knowledge. I also
>>suspect - since no other explanation makes sense to me - that
>>some or many experiences of the anomalous grow out of
>>extraordinary, little-understood aspects of consciousness (an
>>issue that in fact has been the focus of my research and major
>>interest in recent years), but that other reports describe
>>genuine, real-world events. Until we know more about them -
>>which will not happen until science devotes its full resources
>>to addressing these questions - a degree of intellectual
>>modesty, apparently beyond John's capacity to sustain or even
>>imagine, seems in order.

>I find this epilogue one of the most salient posts in this
>thread. If I am correct in thinking that the foregoing paragraph
>represents your best attempt at crystallizing your views, then
>it is the most literate, sane, and understandable position I
>have yet to encounter. It is one with which I am in utter,
>almost astonishing, agreement.

>Very refreshing, intellectually satisfying, and most
>appreciated by one who occasionally has trouble navigating the
>labyrinthine intellectual mind game which is the UFO field.

>Thank you for that!

And thank you for your kind and generous words. You have
precisely understood what I have been attempting to do.

I have sought to get beyond the Deluded Observer Hypothesis as a
one-size-fits-all explanation for all anomalous testimony (at
least that part of it that, as debunkers would have it, isn't
out-and-out mendacious), without being forced to endorse that
testimony -- minus compelling physical or other evidence - as
necessarily descriptive of real-world observation of some
fantastic entity or occurrence.

It's a way of circumventing a stale and useless debate which is
unthinkingly wedded to a naive reductionism on one side and a
maddening literal-mindedness on the other.


Jerry Clark








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                  Re: UFOs According To 'Wikipedia' - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:17:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:29:41 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs According To 'Wikipedia' - King


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 15:06:57 EDT
>Subject: UFOs According To 'Wikipedia'

>I love reading resource material on UFOs. Reference materials
>such as dictionaries and encyclopedias often change. Wikipedia
>is one of them. Easily accessible online and quite helpful.

>Yet take a look at their entries for UFOs and Roswell.

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_flying_object

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_UFO_incident

>Is it me or is something missing here?


Hi Greg,

While wikis get a lot of criticism, the beauty of the concept is
that if you have additional information or if you just think the
entry is "missing something", you can edit it. It is a living
document in the truest sense of the word.

If you are complaining about the brevity or the content of a
wiki, you owe it to yourself and the rest of the wiki community
to correct the omission or the errors.

That's how wikis work. If you were bringing it to the attention
of the List in order to encourage someone to do that, I applaud
the effort.

In a rather simplistic way, wikis are the ultimate "peer review"
publication.

Prime Caveat

While they can be useful, they should never be taken as an
authority alone, but should be balanced with other resources. I
think the same is true of other reference works, to be fair.

All the Best,

Kyle








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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:23:37 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:32:02 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Miller


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:56:45 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:25:45 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:53:35 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

><snip>

>Congratulations to Bruce, Jerry and Dick, on devising three
>new insults for people who disagree with you. Is this what the
>stars of American ufology are reduced to?

>After my previous post, a reader wrote to me off-list saying:
>"Name calling is one way of keeping a discussion from making
>any real progress. Certain individuals on the UFO UpDates List
>often resort to the childish antics when a discussion or topic
>is actually getting somewhere. That way UFOs remain a mystery
>and there is no conflict in their belief systems." Very nicely
>put.


John,

Thank you John for providing us with a crystal clear example of
hypocrisy.

All of the above coming from a man who regularly insults and
abuses people in Magonia, who frequently refers to abductees as
mad or suggests they shouldn't be allowed out unaccompanied, and
so on and so on.

You've lost this one John. You are intellectually bereft of any
further solid contribution to this discussion, as in fact you
have been for some considerable time. It's just been a game with
you to try and wind up Jerry Clark and you've bored us all to
death with your semantics and childishness.

Your anonymous contributor is interesting. Someone without the
balls to post his or herself? BTW, have you been talking to my
wife? She drags in the rest of the world to bolster an argument
too. And of course he's right - name calling is er childish, so
I guess you're going to have to refrain from referring to Jerry
as Jawsy Cluck or whatever it exactly is that you call him
"amongst friends".


Stuart Miller









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                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:05:45 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:35:02 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:23:54 EDT
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:16:29 +0200
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:15:41 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

><snip>

>>>I discovered the top secret Roswell policy of the then AAF by
>>>sheer accident while researching a completely different non-UFO
>>>historical subject. The policy was initiated in extreme secrecy
>>>on about August 1, 1947, and lasted about two years after the
>>>threat being defended against never materialized. It was
>>>apparently not the result of any crashed ET spacecraft or alien
>>>corpses or machinery being found at Roswell, but something of
>>>sufficiently disturbing importance as to trigger radical efforts
>>>to meet the military threat thought to come from deep space.

><snip>

>>>Roswell is hardly "closed". But neither the pro-UFO community or
>>>the anti-UFO skeptic-debunker community wants to hear about it,
>>>because it doesn't support either side's simplistic pet
>>>theories.

>>To Brad and all,

>>Your post is very intriguing. You say that something very
>>disturbing was discovered, but that it was not an alien craft
>>with bodies.

>>What was it then? How do you know? You won't say!

><snip>

>I did say, but you omitted it. You seem to be forgetting that
>the purpose of my post was to merely respond to a thread already
>in progress. I was _not_ writing an article here on UpDates on
>my findings and I explained why I was _not_ going to piecemeal
>out the hundreds of pages of my book manuscript here on UpDates
>into _hundreds_ of posts nor give away my best stuff which
>belongs in a book, like every other Roswell "revelation" book,
>where I have full opportunity to present _all_ of my case with
>appropriate presentation, not some marginalized vanity press-
>type web-based "publication."

>Since I was _not_ attempting to write an article here, but just
>respond to some postings, I was not trying to present a full
>case, which again would require a book-length presentation.
>Besides I did post the answer to your specific question long ago
>here and it was ignored. I don't have time now to hunt it up and
>I won't keep repeating myself. I barely have time to post this
>response.


Brad,

The Roswell case has been studied by a lot of researchers since
the 70's. They have found many witnesses, who have led to a
scenario of UFO/s crash/es, even if the story is not completely
known yet.

The USAF Mogul explanation has been thoroughly refuted and you
have participated in that important task. Thousands of pages
have been written, and I don't know any other case which has
been as fully researched as Roswell.

But now you tell us that you have accumulated data showing a
very different scenario, with enough material to write a book.
Very well, please write it, and I will be one of your readers.
But, until that time, I will stick to the considerable work
already done.


Gildas Bourdais








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              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:43:27 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:37:06 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Hall


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:56:45 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:25:45 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:53:35 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>Well said as always. If we're going to call their favorite
>>>doctrine "DOH", perhaps it's time to add a new word to the
>>>vocabulary to characterize them. I propose that if we are to
>>>bring DOH into ufological language, we ought to acknowledge
>>>where that wonderful phrase comes from, giving all due credit to
>>t>hat beloved mope Homer Simpson, who groans "doh!" whenever he's
>>>screwed up, as he does every time. DOH advocates, therefore, are
>>>"simpsonists."

>>May I propose an alternative designation... with a double
>>entendre: "homeric".

>Congratulations to Bruce, Jerry and Dick, on devising three new
>insults for people who disagree with you. Is this what the stars
>of American ufology are reduced to?

>After my previous post, a reader wrote to me off-list saying:
>"Name calling is one way of keeping a discussion from making any
>real progress. Certain individuals on the UFO UpDates List
>often resort to the childish antics when a discussion or topic
>is actually getting somewhere. That way UFOs remain a mystery
>and there is no conflict in their belief systems." Very nicely
>put.


John,

You must be thin-skinned indeed! I made no insulting remarks
toward you whatsoever. The Deluded Observer Hypothesis (DOH)
expression was stated by me many years ago as a shorthand
expression for the all sightings-are-explainable viewpoint. Ask
anyone who has actually read my writings.

It struck me that the acronym if pronounced would sound like a
Homeric Simpsonism, so I made a joke about it, directed at no
one in particular. And I thought you had a sense of humor. Or
are you only mock-pouting to change the subject, and citing sone
anaonymous person of unknown intelligence and knowledge to turn
a harmless joke into a conversation killer?

I was less than impressed by your evasive, non-response to that
post of mine, so I didn't bother replying to it. Indeed. it
seems to me that you are the one avoiding and evading discusisng
the core issues, and constantly griping about alleged insults.
Your apparent buddy, Andy Clark(e) is the pastmaster of insults,
and I don't see you chastizing him on that score.


 - Dick










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              Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:24:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:41:02 -0400
Subject: Re:  Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Boone


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:21:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:12:57 -0700
>>Subject: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>Jaime Maussan is showing his real interest in UFOs... Money!
>>You can buy the 'History' for 350.00 Mexican Pesos or
>>$33.00 USD.

>How does a story made available for a reasonable fee detract
>from the story, whatever personal problems one may have with Mr.
>Maussan?

>Richard Hall has a book that he's selling... is he also
>suspect?

>Could it be that you unmask a little of _your_ real interest in
>this affair, Sir, with this suggestive, ad hominum, observation
>regarding Mr. Maussan's lawful and ethical activity?

>It could be argued that you are being "rude", "cynical", and
>even "negative", Mr. Franz...

Look, the bottom line is that when the original story broke the
Mexican Government should have launched the same plane on the
same flight pattern under as close the original conditions to
see if the phenomena could be duplicated. Not just one flight
but two or three. If it disturbed them enough to have contacted
the media then they should have resolved the issue promptly
instead of this long drawn out scenario that's lead to umpteen
speculations and accusations and invalidations.

Far too often we get a 'mystery' and unlike the movies where the
villain is unmasked in two hours by "Those kids and that pesky
dog", we get these epoch long scenarios that launch commecial
markets with no one resolving the issue.

At least Capt. Franz put his butt on a plane and did something.
Whether I agree with the results or not at least he _did_
something.

Until someone steps up to the plate and does a full
investigation it's still up in the air - no pun intended.

Yelling at one another and calling names isn't science. It's
mainstream science but it isn't science.

Capt. Franz gave us something. Not all of it, but something.

I for one disregard any evidence if it's accompanied with
antagonism or hostility because it compromises the integrity by
raising questions of true intention. Science and investigation
are about  facts not cracks.

This year in Ufology we've seen storie,s on almost a daily
basis, and the typical BS accompanying them.

Take a look at Mr. Friedman's post about Capt. Franz's
presentation.

It says alot in just a few words.


Best,

Greg









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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:36:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:42:40 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:56:45 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:25:45 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:53:35 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

><snip>

>>>Well said as always. If we're going to call their favorite
>>>doctrine "DOH", perhaps it's time to add a new word to the
>>>vocabulary to characterize them. I propose that if we are to
>>>bring DOH into ufological language, we ought to acknowledge
>>>where that wonderful phrase comes from, giving all due credit to
>>t>hat beloved mope Homer Simpson, who groans "doh!" whenever he's
>>>screwed up, as he does every time. DOH advocates, therefore, are
>>>"simpsonists."

>>May I propose an alternative designation... with a double
>>entendre: "homeric".

>Congratulations to Bruce, Jerry and Dick, on devising three new
>insults for people who disagree with you. Is this what the stars
>of American ufology are reduced to?

>After my previous post, a reader wrote to me off-list saying:
>"Name calling is one way of keeping a discussion from making any
>real progress. Certain individuals on the UFO UpDates List
>often resort to the childish antics when a discussion or topic
>is actually getting somewhere. That way UFOs remain a mystery
>and there is no conflict in their belief systems." Very nicely
>put.

You ignored all of my substantive posts on discovering top
secret Roswell military policy response by the AAF/AF, and on
three best multiple-witness visual scientist-engineer UFO cases,
of LaPaz, Kelly Johnson-Lockheed (triangulation, 25,000 mph
escape into space), and the top Pentagon R&D official
(triangulation, 36,000 mph escape into space).









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   Sep > Sep 15

                 Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale -

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:42:59 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:45:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale -


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:12:57 -0700
>Subject: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>Jaime Maussan is showing his real interest in UFOs... Money!
>You can buy the 'History' for 350.00 Mexican Pesos or
>$33.00 USD.

>Visit:

>http://www.homolongevus.tv/portal/con_histori.htm

>Translation with:

>http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr

>Mexican Air Force FLIR's video lights are not UFOs they are oil
>well gas flames!

>http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/REFERENCE_DATA.html

>My own video recording showing I was right.

>http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/CANTARELL_SEP_2004/index.html

The FLIR video of March 5th has been shown to a rather wide
audience by now. E.g., Maussan showed it at the Bay Area UFO
Expo. For these viewers as well as the airplane's crew, it is
indisputable that the objects could not have been well-gas
flames.

During one section of the video, the most notable objects were in
a doubled triplet formation, pacing the airplane off the port
side, and are seen to have passed _in_front of_ a nearby cloud
top, then pass _behind_* an even closer cloud-top fragment, then
emerge.

Thus, it seems silly to press the case for a well-gas-flame
explanation, in which flames show up in the visible, not just





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                  Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:47:20 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:48:28 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth - Sparks


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 21:58:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:12:20 -0300
>>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:26:12 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

<snip>

>>I must point out, again, that apparently Captain Franz was
>>taking pictures from _three_times_ the altitude of the
>>government plane.

>_Almost_ three times. It was precisely 2.6956521 times.

>11500ft/31000ft = 2.6956521

>>Surely this impacts on the field of view? What was the vertical
>>angle from the plane?

>You are the scientist, I was the pilot. What are yor results?

From 11,500 ft the geometric depression angle is 1.9 degrees,
ignoring refraction. From 31,000 ft it is 3.1 degrees, omitting
refraction. It is not a factor 3x difference because it has a
cosine factor in it, and at a small angle where cosine moves
slowly.

It means that one can see about 150 miles to the most distant
earth horizon from 11,500 ft (includes a little extra distance
due to refraction) and you can see about 250 miles from 31,000
ft (refraction included).


Brad Sparks








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               Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:58:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:51:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - King


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:21:12 -0500
>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:12:57 -0700
>>Subject: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>Jaime Maussan is showing his real interest in UFOs... Money!
>>You can buy the 'History' for 350.00 Mexican Pesos or
>>$33.00 USD.

>How does a story made available for a reasonable fee detract
>from the story, whatever personal problems one may have with Mr.
>Maussan?

>Richard Hall has a book that he's selling... is he also
>suspect?

>Could it be that you unmask a little of _your_ real interest in
>this affair, Sir, with this suggestive, ad hominum, observation
>regarding Mr. Maussan's lawful and ethical activity?

>It could be argued that you are being "rude", "cynical", and
>even "negative", Mr. Franz...


Mr. Franz,

Your post states a simple thesis... Mr. Maussan is primarily
interested in UFOs for the money he can derive from the field.

I would agree with this thesis, only if it were shown that Mr.
Maussan had fabricated the stories in his "History".

If he is only guilty of receiving compensation for the costs of
collecting and presenting information of interest to some
portion of the population, then every author should be equally
indicted, as Mr. Lehmberg points out.

Books are a crapshoot at best as a vehicle for monetary
enrichment.

If you have a substantive argument for Mr. Maussan being
dishonest or even disingenuous in his publication I might alter
my judgement, but until then your post is nothing but a
provocative observation with no real purpose... other than to
assail the messenger instead of the message. While that may
constitute a purpose, in my mind it is far more accurately
described as an agenda. And in the absence of a cogent
indictment of the content, a transparent agenda at that.

I will say that I find Mr. Maussan a bit sensationalistic, like
a Mexican version of Geraldo Rivera. But even oft-assailed
Rivera sheds light on shadowy subjects and serves a true
purpose, whether or not you find his approach tasteful.


Regards,

Kyle








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   Sep > Sep 16

                     Strange Photos From Uberaba Brazil

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:57:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 05:59:59 -0400
Subject: Strange Photos From Uberaba Brazil


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
September 15, 2004


Photos taken at the Wilson Estevanovic Museum of Natural
History, in Uberaba, Brazil

Museum Curator Wilson Estavnovic Neto said that the museum,
circus and itinerant theater, always operated by his ancestors,
has covered all countries in the world. In these travels, they
have managed to obtain - through donations - artifacts, mummies
and stones of all kinds which fell from space, as well as other
interesting materials.


Alien

A strange piece drew our attention. A rather different mummified
skeleton, similar to an alien: large-headed, earless, with odd-
shaped eyes and mouth. All of these characteristics were
highlighted by experts on the subject.


Source

Museum administrators claim not to know the provenance
of the skeleton, which was discovered only recently when they
tried to "de-mummify" the piece, which was probably acquired in
Egypt. The specimen is on display in the museum only on Sundays
and under guard. According to the owners, at least ten efforts
to steal the item have been amde.

To give a better idea, the skull is alsmost twice the size of an
adult human skull and is rather out of proportion in relation
with the rest of the body, which measures approximately 50 cm.
The six-toed foot is there, mummified.

Full text and photos at:

http://planeta.terra.com.br/noticias/mr_ufo/alienuber.htm

=============================================

Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Andreia X







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             Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:48:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 06:04:06 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:05:41 -0500
>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:07:36 -0700
>>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

<snip>

>>Alfred, Et, Al,

>>>This is astonishing... A Mexican aviator making such
>>>disparagingly thoughtless comments regarding fellow Mexican
>>>aviators. I don't know about Mexican military aviation training
>>>procedures first hand, so I must withhold judgment on same. But
>>>I was once a manager and intimate designer of military aviation
>>>training programs, was in fact involved with them at multiple
>>>levels, intra and extra-Service, intra and extra-nationally and
>>>don't recall Mexican aviation and aviator competence _ever_
>>>coming into question, and I'm around aviator trainers all the
>>>time. Other nationalities come into question - frequently. The
>>>'world' comes to my home town to learn to fly and be safe while
>>>they fly.

>>I didn't see anything "disparaging or thoughtless" about
>>Alejandro's comments on "Mexican Air Force Pilots" (his fellow
>>aviators). There weren't any negative connotations or verbiage
>>used in his statement - he just stated the facts as he perceives
>>them.

>Uh-huh, I'll let the professionals he evaluated make their own
>call on that, Sir.

Alfred,

Please, "Frank" is fine; first, Alejandro was responding to a
question, in which he was asked "his opinion," and he responded.
You obviously took offense; I merely was pointing out that INMHO
that he wasn't trying to be offensive, he was just calling "a
spade a spade" as "he sees it."

>Imagine yourself at the business end of the Captain's
>assessment. I daresay a few "el grande pendahos" would be thrown
>around, at the least.

Stating that the pilots were not "thoroughly trained" or "lacking
in experience" is certainly not "character assassination."

>>>Moreover, this drug interdiction mission has American military
>>>training and oversight written all over it and I don't think
>>>they'd tolerate a whole lot of protracted incompetence and lack
>>>of experience given the importance of the interdiction
>>>mission.

>>Alfred, one only need to look at Iraq to see how much
>>"protracted incompetence" the American military would tolerate.

>Apples and oranges, Sir. I was career military. What's your
>experience? Armchair O'Riley Talking points? [g].

My fields of combat weren't in the military, and quite frankly
that certainly isn't a prerequisite in spotting a debacle when
you see one.

>>>That these qualified Mexican mission specialists - and ten hours
>>>of actual flightime is _plenty_ of training by the way - even
>>>conservatively speaking can't, because of a proclaimed lack of
>>>training and experience, be able to tell their asses from their

>>Alejandro, "in my view," approached this case in a very
>>professional, ethical and scientific manner, and presented
>>credible evidence in kind. He wasn't rude, cynical or negative
>>in any way. He should be applauded for his efforts.

>Alejadro? Chummy, in my view.

Oy!

>Moreover, rude? Certainly. Cynical? A slight squeeze and he
>fairly drips with it. Negative? Well, that will usually follow
>the preceding two. We must agree to disagree, Sir.

Yes, I concur. Perhaps, if you can get past your anguish of
Captain Alejandro's opinion of "Mexican Air Force Pilots," you
can take a closer look at the data he's put on the table and use
the same fervor you've used to "criticize the man," to "analyze
the data" in question.


Regards,

Frank Warren







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                   That's Not A UFO It's An Iridium Flare

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 06:12:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 06:12:41 -0400
Subject: That's Not A UFO It's An Iridium Flare




Source: The High Desert Star - Morongo Basin, California

http://www.hidesertstar.com/articles/2004/09/14/features/feature1.txt

09-16-04


That's Not A UFO It's An Iridium Flare

MORONGO BASIN - Some people gazing upward may have seen a sudden
flash in the sky recently - or years ago - leaving them to
wonder what in the world it could be.

According to longtime astronomer Sam Davidson, the flash is
nothing more than an iridium flare.

The flare occurs when sunlight is reflected from the antenna of
one of a set of 66 communications satellites, said Davidson.

The satellites are relatively small telecommunications
satellites in a low Earth orbit and are part of a world-wide
system for mobile communications, states a information report
about the flares.

Three main mission antennas on the satellites have flat, highly
reflective surfaces that flash sunlight to the night-sky watcher
on Earth.

"It usually lasts a mere five seconds or so," added Davidson.

An iridium flare can be seen about every 10 days in the Basin,
but it has a schedule and the times are not always the same.

The flare can usually be seen in Yucca Valley. Twentynine Palms
residents probably won't be able to view the flash because of
the position of the satellite with the sun, said the astronomer.

The next flare that can be seen in Yucca Valley will be at 7:40
p.m.Thursday high in the southeast of the sky, said Davidson.

The flare is expected to be brighter than Venus.

The path of the satellite is usually north to south, so Landers
should also be able to catch a glimpse at the flash, he
explained.


[UFO UpDates thanks Greg Boone for the lead]







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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:56:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 06:18:02 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:36:02 EDT
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>You ignored all of my substantive posts on discovering top
>secret Roswell military policy response by the AAF/AF, and on
>three best multiple-witness visual scientist-engineer UFO cases,
>of LaPaz, Kelly Johnson-Lockheed (triangulation, 25,000 mph
>escape into space), and the top Pentagon R&D official
>(triangulation, 36,000 mph escape into space).

Sorry about that. Can you give me details of websites or
published sources where I might be able to find full details of
these cases?


Many thanks.

John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:59:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 06:32:49 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:23:37 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:56:45 +0100
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>Thank you John for providing us with a crystal clear example
>of hypocrisy.

>All of the above coming from a man who regularly insults and
>abuses people in Magonia, who frequently refers to abductees as
>mad or suggests they shouldn't be allowed out unaccompanied, and
>so on and so on.

>Your anonymous contributor is interesting. Someone without the
>balls to post his or herself? BTW, have you been talking to my
>wife? She drags in the rest of the world to bolster an argument
>too. And of course he's right - name calling is er childish, so
>I guess you're going to have to refrain from referring to Jerry
>[Clark] as Jawsy Cluck or whatever it exactly is that you call
>him "amongst friends".

Very interesting, Stuart. On the very rare occasion that John
Rimmer's name comes up among my friends, we call him "John
Rimmer."


Jerry Clark








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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:37:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 06:40:50 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:14:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>I have laid out my views on these matters throughout my
>writings. I appreciate John's fascination with my views, but not
>his effort to tell me what I think. Other people don't seem to
>have John's problem, if I may judge from reviews in mainstream
>publications (which, if I may put modesty aside for a moment,
>tend to praise my reasoning skills and nuanced approach) and
>from the correspondence I have received over the years from
>thoughtful readers.

>The introduction to Unexplained! (Visible Ink Press, 2nd ed.,
>1998) and my essay in The Anomalist (Spring 2000) - as well as
>the long intro to my book Unnatural Phenomena (ABC-CLIO, 2005) -
> set forth my approach to anomalistics, including ufology.
>Apparently, John labors under the delusion that I am hiding my
>true opinions ("beliefs" to him) which he has managed to
>discerne through his keen telepathic
>insights.

>Meanwhile, as for the ETH specifically, I regard it as an "open
>question" (Strange Skies, p. 216), neither proved nor disproved
>nor - so long as it is recognized as provisional and tentative -
>unreasonable.

>(I am amused to observe once again that I spend far less time
>thinking about the ETH than the obsessives of the pelicanist
>school do. But then, they deem it the most threatening and hated
>of all heresies which must be run down and crushed whenever
>pelicanists think they have detected the faintest wisp of it.
>Such as here.)

>On the other hand, I regard the doctrine that all witnesses are
>mistaken or lying and that all is resolvable into the cozily
>prosaic as hopeless and useless - a conclusion that anyone who
>follows the recurring List debates between pelicanists and their
>more open-minded adversaries is likely to share, I suspect.

>Not being preoccupied with theory, I prefer more pragmatic
>approaches which eventually, we hope, will allow us to construct
>hypotheses on firmer grounds than are currently available. In
>the meantime, I remain convinced that UFOs and other major
>anomalies involve phenomena, whether ultimately found to be
>trivial or seminal, that lie beyond current knowledge. I also
>suspect - since no other explanation makes sense to me - that
>some or many experiences of the anomalous grow out of
>extraordinary, little-understood aspects of consciousness (an
>issue that in fact has been the focus of my research and major
>interest in recent years),

An interesting revelation. Are you yet ready to publish anything
on this research? I certainly agree with you that many UFO-
related events - particularly abductions - may be related to as-
yet unregarded aspects of consciousness. If fact I would say
that such a realisation stands behind much psychosocial ufology.

> but that other reports describe
>genuine, real-world events. Until we know more about them -
>which will not happen until science devotes its full resources
>to addressing these questions - a degree of intellectual
>modesty, apparently beyond John's capacity to sustain or even
>imagine, seems in order.

This sort of brings us back to where this by now too-long-
extended UFO UpDates thread started (I think - maybe it was at
the start of some other thread!) with a discussion of the
Chiles-Whitted sighting. If the description given by the two
pilots was an accurate representation of what passed their
aircraft it is difficult to conclude that it was anything other
than a structured craft. However a number of UFO researchers,
not all of them in the sceptical camp, have concluded that the
witnesses interpretation of what they saw was at variance with
the actual phenomonon the witnessed - in other words that they
were mistaken.

We have seen here that Brad Sparks - a researcher that Jerry
thinks highly of for his analysis of the RB-47 Radar-Visual case
- does not rate Chiles-Whitted very highly, nor, after two
changes of mind, did Allen Hynek. I don't think either of these
gentlemen were claiming that the two pilots were lying, but they
do cast serious doubt on their interpretation of what was
undoubtedly a "genuine real-world event".

I know that Jerry thinks highly of James McDonald's views on
this case, but on reading his submission to the 1968 US House
Committee Symposium on UFOs, I was amazed to find that he
interviewed the two pilots in 1968, *twenty years* after the
event. In these circumstances I cannot regard this interview as
having anything other than anecdotal value.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:07:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 06:43:26 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rimmer


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:23:37 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:56:45 +0100
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>Congratulations to Bruce, Jerry and Dick, on devising three
>>new insults for people who disagree with you. Is this what the
>>stars of American ufology are reduced to?

>>After my previous post, a reader wrote to me off-list saying:
>>"Name calling is one way of keeping a discussion from making
>>any real progress. Certain individuals on the UFO UpDates List
>>often resort to the childish antics when a discussion or topic
>>is actually getting somewhere. That way UFOs remain a mystery
>>and there is no conflict in their belief systems." Very nicely
>>put.

>Thank you John for providing us with a crystal clear example of
>hypocrisy.

>All of the above coming from a man who regularly insults and
>abuses people in Magonia, who frequently refers to abductees as
>mad or suggests they shouldn't be allowed out unaccompanied, and
>so on and so on.

Would you please provide an example of anywhere in Magonia - or
anywhere in my book "The Evidence for Alien Abductions", where I
have said that abductees are "mad" or "should not be allowed out
unaccompanied", or anything like that? Or indeed any other
examples of regular insult and abuse.

>You've lost this one John. You are intellectually bereft of any
>further solid contribution to this discussion, as in fact you
>have been for some considerable time. It's just been a game with
>you to try and wind up Jerry Clark and you've bored us all to
>death with your semantics and childishness.

Whilst I would not deny the pleasure to be had winding up Jerry
Clark - who seems to find it impossible not to reply to anything
I post on UpDates despite numerous annoucements that he will
cease doing so - I do try to make solid contributions to
discussions. It is hardly my fault if Mr Clark (and others)
choose to <snip> the relevant parts when they reply.

>Your anonymous contributor is interesting. Someone without the
>balls to post his or herself? BTW, have you been talking to my
>wife? She drags in the rest of the world to bolster an argument
>too. And of course he's right - name calling is er childish, so
>I guess you're going to have to refrain from referring to Jerry
>as Jawsy Cluck or whatever it exactly is that you call him
>"amongst friends".

The person did not write to me anonymously, but as I did not ask
their permission before quoting their comments, I did not feel
it polite to give their name. But they were right, weren't they.
(Oh, by the way, notice how Jerry snipped that comment from his
reply).

I suggest that your telepathic ability to discern what I and my
friends may or may not call Mr Clark in private is far more
worthy of scientific study than some of the dubious UFO cases
that have been discussed here recently.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 21:29:15 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 06:45:47 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Hall


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:43:27 +0000
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:56:45 +0100
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>>>>Well said as always. If we're going to call their favorite
>>>>doctrine "DOH", perhaps it's time to add a new word to the
>>>>vocabulary to characterize them. I propose that if we are to
>>>>bring DOH into ufological language, we ought to acknowledge
>>>>where that wonderful phrase comes from, giving all due credit to
>>>t>hat beloved mope Homer Simpson, who groans "doh!" whenever he's
>>>>screwed up, as he does every time. DOH advocates, therefore, are
>>>>"simpsonists."

>>>May I propose an alternative designation... with a double
>>>entendre: "homeric".

>>Congratulations to Bruce, Jerry and Dick, on devising three new
>>insults for people who disagree with you. Is this what the stars
>>of American ufology are reduced to?

>>After my previous post, a reader wrote to me off-list saying:
>>"Name calling is one way of keeping a discussion from making any
>>real progress. Certain individuals on the UFO UpDates List
>>often resort to the childish antics when a discussion or topic
>>is actually getting somewhere. That way UFOs remain a mystery
>>and there is no conflict in their belief systems." Very nicely
>>put.

>John,

>You must be thin-skinned indeed! I made no insulting remarks
>toward you whatsoever. The Deluded Observer Hypothesis (DOH)
>expression was stated by me many years ago as a shorthand
>expression for the all sightings-are-explainable viewpoint. Ask
>anyone who has actually read my writings.

>It struck me that the acronym if pronounced would sound like a
>Homeric Simpsonism, so I made a joke about it, directed at no
>one in particular. And I thought you had a sense of humor. Or
>are you only mock-pouting to change the subject, and citing sone
>anaonymous person of unknown intelligence and knowledge to turn
>a harmless joke into a conversation killer?

>I was less than impressed by your evasive, non-response to that
>post of mine, so I didn't bother replying to it. Indeed. it
>seems to me that you are the one avoiding and evading discusisng
>the core issues, and constantly griping about alleged insults.
>Your apparent buddy, Andy Clark(e) is the pastmaster of insults,
>and I don't see you chastizing him on that score.

Oops! In my haste, I misspoke. Which proves that all humans are
fallible and no human testimony can be believed. Everyone is
capable of error; therefore, there is no truth. Andy ROBERTS.
Andy Roberts. Andy Roberts.


 - Dick








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                              Some Co-Incidence

From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:12:29 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 06:51:36 -0400
Subject: Some Co-Incidence


List,

Mystery #1

In 1726 a certain Jonathan Swift wrote: "They [the Laputians]
have likewise discovered two lesser stars, or satellites, which
revolve about Mars, whereof the innermost is distant from the
center of the primary planet exactly three of its diameters, and
the outermost five; the former revolves in the space of ten
hours, and the latter in twenty-one and a half; ..."

That was 150 years _before_ Deimos and Phobos were first
spotted:

http://www.unmuseum.org/marsmoon.htm

Weird - Swift "guessed" correct number of moons, correct
(approx.) distances from  Mars, correct (approx.) orbit periods
and hence their correct masses/densities.

Compounded by Phobos's mass/density being so 'strange' that some
recent astronomers have suggested that it _might_ have been
hollow, even artificial.


Mystery #2

C 1916 Percival Lowell thought perturbations in orbits of Uranus
and Neptune indicated another (sizeable) planet further out,
After his death his calculations and use of his observatory were
eventually passed to Clyde Tombaugh who found Pluto in
approximately correct position (Feb. 1930, after a painstaking
search):

http://www.mira.org/fts0/planets/101/text/txt201x.htm

Weird - Pluto (plus later discovered companion Charon) is way
too small to fit Lowell's predicted Planet X, but were in
correct "place".

Anyway, modern astronomers say any perturbations in Uranus &
Neptume's orbits are only "noise" and shouldn't have pointed to
anything in particular.

So - Deimos and Phobos (+ weirdness) PLUS Pluto and Charon (+
weirdness).

How came those detailed predictions and attendant weirdness? Any
ideas?


Cheers

Ray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






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              Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:09:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:05:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Velez


>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:42:59 -0700
>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:12:57 -0700
>>Subject: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>Jaime Maussan is showing his real interest in UFOs... Money!
>>You can buy the 'History' for 350.00 Mexican Pesos or
>>$33.00 USD.

>>Visit:

>>http://www.homolongevus.tv/portal/con_histori.htm

>>Translation with:

>>http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr

>>Mexican Air Force FLIR's video lights are not UFOs they are oil
>>well gas flames!

>>http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/REFERENCE_DATA.html

>>My own video recording showing I was right.

>>http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/CANTARELL_SEP_2004/index.html

>The FLIR video of March 5th has been shown to a rather wide
>audience by now. E.g., Maussan showed it at the Bay Area UFO
>Expo. For these viewers as well as the airplane's crew, it is
>indisputable that the objects could not have been well-gas
>flames.

>During one section of the video, the most notable objects were in
>a doubled triplet formation, pacing the airplane off the port
>side, and are seen to have passed _in_front of_ a nearby cloud
>top, then pass _behind_* an even closer cloud-top fragment, then
>emerge.

>Thus, it seems silly to press the case for a well-gas-flame
>explanation, in which flames show up in the visible, not just
>the infrared, to anyone who has viewed the March 5th video.


Hi Jim, All,

If I may pop in here for just a second...

The last I heard, there was evidence on that FLIR footage for a
"genuine UFO" or as Bruce Maccabee calls it, a "trufo" - true
UFO. I've been out of touch with anything ufological for weeks
so excuse me if I am speaking out of turn, but why hasn't Bruce
Maccabee chimed in on this thread yet and shared his findings?

Franz, and one or two others, continue to put more and more
make-up on this pig of a theory - dismissed months ago by both
the liason of the Mexican military and the crew - in hopes of
making it pretty enough to sell to the public.

It's a joke. The objects that were recorded on the FLIR were
moving _faster_ than the airplane (which was traveling at 230+
mph - the objects were recorded while they were moving _past_
the airplane. And, as Jim has pointed out, they passed the plane
while flying in formation - i.e.; while maintaining equal
distance and position to each other.

Unless oil wells - or pigs - can fly, Franz's 'theory' holds
about as much water as the Gobi Desert.

Bruce? Where are you, man? Why aren't you in here straightening
this guy Franz out? Why doesn't anyone know about your findings
yet? What's going on? Tell 'em about the radar evidence for
Keerists sake!

I'm going back to civilian life and lurking. I only jumped back
in for a moment because the obfuscating stuff Franz is putting
out really burns my biscuits.


My best to all,

John Velez








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              Re: Super-Earths: The Next Step In Planet Finding

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:31:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:12:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Super-Earths: The Next Step In Planet Finding


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:28:40 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Super-Earths: The Next Step In Planet Finding

>Source: The Christian Science Monitor

>http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0915/p25s01-stss.html

>04-15-04

>Super-Earths: The Next Step In Planet Finding

>By Michele Thaller
>csmonitor.com

>PASADENA CA -- When it comes to the subject of extra-solar
>planets, you've got to move fast.

<snip>

>The wobble our planet induces in the Sun is so small,
>that if we were living in another planetary system looking
>back at our Sun, with our current technology, we wouldn't
>be able to detect it. But we probably would be able to
>detect Jupiter.

Does the Christian Science Monitor pre-suppose the ability of
the observers to become observed? This distant star, a planet
the size of earth some 38 light years distance, has just been
detected. We wonder if are there any beings there! We wonder do
they resemble anything like us hominids on earth on the same
evolutionary scale?

Meanwhile, some 38 years before, on a distant world the
observers become the observed when current day technology
detects a small planet some 38 light years before, it seems so
equal to our own little world that circles our sun.

While found 38 light years away this planet that circles a star
similiar to our own world is roughly the same size of earth, so
we wonder is their life their that resembles our own?

Just found 38 years later the observers become the observed, and
they wonder about this small planet, not to far away, in our
neighborhood, whether it has forms of life similiar to our own,
and we wonder if do we have anything in common.


John







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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:10:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:15:53 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:05:45 +0200
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:23:54 EDT
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:16:29 +0200
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:15:41 EDT
>>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>>>>I discovered the top secret Roswell policy of the then AAF by
>>>>sheer accident while researching a completely different non-UFO
>>>>historical subject. The policy was initiated in extreme secrecy
>>>>on about August 1, 1947, and lasted about two years after the
>>>>threat being defended against never materialized. It was
>>>>apparently not the result of any crashed ET spacecraft or alien
>>>>corpses or machinery being found at Roswell, but something of
>>>>sufficiently disturbing importance as to trigger radical efforts
>>>>to meet the military threat thought to come from deep space.

<snip>

>>>>Roswell is hardly "closed". But neither the pro-UFO community or
>>>>the anti-UFO skeptic-debunker community wants to hear about it,
>>>>because it doesn't support either side's simplistic pet
>>>>theories.

>>>Your post is very intriguing. You say that something very
>>>disturbing was discovered, but that it was not an alien craft
>>>with bodies.

>>>What was it then? How do you know? You won't say!

<snip>

>>I did say, but you omitted it. You seem to be forgetting that
>>the purpose of my post was to merely respond to a thread already
>>in progress. I was _not_ writing an article here on UpDates on
>>my findings and I explained why I was _not_ going to piecemeal
>>out the hundreds of pages of my book manuscript here on UpDates
>>into _hundreds_ of posts nor give away my best stuff which
>>belongs in a book, like every other Roswell "revelation" book,
>>where I have full opportunity to present _all_ of my case with
>>appropriate presentation, not some marginalized vanity press-
>>type web-based "publication."

>>Since I was _not_ attempting to write an article here, but just
>>respond to some postings, I was not trying to present a full
>>case, which again would require a book-length presentation.
>>Besides I did post the answer to your specific question long ago
>>here and it was ignored. I don't have time now to hunt it up and
>>I won't keep repeating myself. I barely have time to post this
>>response.

>The Roswell case has been studied by a lot of researchers since
>the 70's. They have found many witnesses, who have led to a
>scenario of UFO/s crash/es, even if the story is not completely
>known yet.

Gildas,

But those researchers ignore the witnesses whose stories they
don't like, the ones who confirm something mysterious, but have
_not_ led to a scenario of crashed UFO spaceship or alien bodies.

This is why these researchers do not want to hear what I say,
don't beat down my door (so to speak) in an encouraging effort
to find out what I have found out or make any effort to
facilitate publication of my work or further research to help it
along - because they really don't want to know, they don't want
my findings confirmed or supported in any way.

Likewise for the skeptics and debunkers.

Both sides are in agreement to suppress or icily ignore this
Roswell development. It does not represent to either side an
exciting development, but rather a onerous undermining or
negation of everything they claim to stand for on Roswell.

It's not about the search for truth with these partisans, both
pro-UFO and anti-UFO. It's about whose side "wins."


Brad Sparks







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 16

                    Re: Enceladus Straight Lines? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 00:43:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:17:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Enceladus Straight Lines? - Hatch


>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:29:45 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Enceladus Straight Lines?

>Are these intelligent meteor impact trails or signs of Alien
>activity? Top middle and right of

>http://www.rednova.com/news/images/1/2004/09/14/enceladus_1big_moon_saturn.jpg

>Enceladus is a newly discovered Moon of Saturn


Hi Colin:

They look like natural stress fractures to me, but this is out
of my turf. There are similar, broken straight lines, on the
Atlantic Ocean floor, caused by tectonic activity. Right angle
displacements, the works.


Best

- Larry









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 16

                           Filers Files #39 - 2004

From: George A. Filer <majorstar.nul>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:09:17 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:49:48 -0400
Subject: Filers Files #39 - 2004


Filers Files #39 - 2004, Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern
Vice President of Skywatch International
September 15, 2004
Webmaster: Chuck Warren

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space as reported each week. These Files make the
assumption that extraterrestrial intelligent life exists and my
hypothesis is that the over a hundred UFO reports each week
represent factual UFO sightings in our skies. This week a new
planet has been found, new anomalies on Mars, and UFO reports
over the Atlantic Ocean, Maine, Rhode Island, Connecticut,
Washington, DC, North Carolina, Florida, Ohio, Illinois,
Missouri, Kansas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas Colorado, New
Mexico, California, Alaska, Canada, UK, Spain, and Sri Lanka.

Sun Erupts - Getting Ivan Stronger

An M-Class flare has fired off from sunspot region 672. Mitch
Battros says this will work to enhance hurricane =E2=80=9CIvan=E2=80=9D,
which will most likely maintain its category 5 status. There is
also a danger this latest solar activity will spawn new tropical
storms via increased Ocean and Jet Stream current enhancement as
per the =E2=80=98equation'. Look for continued aurora activity in
higher to mid latitudes. Latest Hurricane Update:

Equation:

Sunspots =3D> Solar Flares =3D> Magnetic Field Shift =3D> Shifting
Ocean and Jet Stream Currents =3D> Extreme Weather and Human
Disruption (Thanks to Mitch Battros)

Telescope snaps distant 'planet'

BBC News Online science editor Dr. David Whitehouse reports
that, "Astronomers working in Chile think they may have taken
the first direct image of a planet circling another star." The
observations were made with the 8.2m Yepun unit, part of the
Very Large Telescope (VLT) facility operated by the European
Southern Observatory (Eso) in the Atacama Desert. The telescope
has discovered a star, called 2M1207, that is 230 light-years
away and is very much smaller and fainter than our own Sun.
Astronomer Christophe Dumas said: "It is a strange feeling that
it may indeed be the first planetary system beyond our own ever
imaged." Benjamin Zuckerman, of the University of California,
"If the candidate companion of 2M1207 is really a planet, this
would be the first time that an exoplanet has been imaged around
a star or brown dwarf." And Anne-Marie Lagrange, from the
Grenoble Observatory, France, said: "Our discovery represents a
first step towards opening a new field in astrophysics: the
imaging and spectroscopic study of planetary systems. " The star
is white and the red object is its planet. The star has a mass
of about a few per cent of our Sun's mass and is not able to
sustain nuclear fusion reactions in its core to produce energy
in the same way as our Sun does.
http://www.surfingtheapocalypse.com

Mars - Possible Structures

Norman M. Bryden writes, "In this image from the Mars Global
Surveyor, there is a strange shaped crater that appears to have
been intelligently modified, surrounded by rows of other
structures in the area that do not fit any known non-intelligent
geological formations." In the center of the circle there seems
to be a collection of triangular shapes, which remind me of the
mystery triangular spacecraft so well documented recently in the
skies over Earth. On the right side of the circle there also
appears to be what looks like an underground entrance port
complete with what looks like a support strut. There is also
what looks like a path or road in the center of the circle that
leads away from the tip of one of the triangular shapes to the
underground port on the right. The organization and structure of
this formation reminds me of a landing pad for advanced
spacecraft and an entrance to an underground facility. Thanks to
Norman M. Bryden

Atlantic Ocean - Beacon Type Flashes

On August 30, 2004, at 10 PM, commercial pilots report, "Twice
in the last month over the Atlantic ocean at Flight Level 360
myself and my First Officer have witnessed a flashing beacon
type light at orbital altitudes near the vicinity of the Big
Dipper." The object appears to be very fast based on the
frequency of the flash and its location. I just want to know if
we may have a satellite with some type of spin on it that would
cause this sighting. I have not seen this type of flash from the
many other satellites, etc., that I have seen over the years.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director

Editor's Note: No known satellite has flashing beacons. On
occasion shortly after sunset the sun will reflect off the
surface.

Maine - Metallic Circular Object

PISCATAQUIS COUNTY - The witness was watching TV at 6:30 PM,
when he looked out his bay window and saw a low flying circular
metallic object moving from the middle of the window to the left
side on August 28, 2004. This is roughly south to north 50 to 75
feet higher than the treeline. I have heard of other lights and
mysterious objects in the sky. It was a very bright, silver
metallic color and was flying about 50 mph in a straight path
until I lost sight of it. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

Rhode Island - Black Triangle Over Chopper

WESTERLY - On August 26, 2004, the witness was doing light
cleaning when she heard a helicopter passing very low over her
house. She looked up at 10:13 PM, to see an Army type chopper
flying over and noticed a second object passed above the
helicopter. The object was flying east and as it crossed the
path of the helicopter it switched direction to north and then
was lost behind a group of trees. The object was an unmistakable
triangle that was black in color with a flashing light at the
point facing the rear. It had other lights along the bottom and
sides but they were not as bright. There was no sound apart from
the noise of the chopper that I could detect. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Connecticut - Flying Triangle

MADISON -- On August 25, 2004, a business consultant with an MBA
was renting a beach house on the shore. At 10 PM, my 14-year-old
nephew and my 18 year-old babysitter were the first to see the
UFOs. I arrived home with my 22 year-old niece at about 10:30
PM, and they were excited, having seen ten sparkling
unidentified objects flying in the sky above Long Island Sound.

As we spoke, several more appeared in the sky, and by midnight
we had counted at least forty. They would fly from the ocean to
inland from the southeast towards the northeast. Several flew in
triangle patterns and flew close to each other and cross each
other's flight paths almost crashing. It looked like they might
crash. Two flew very low over our heads and we could see the
bottom of one. It looked like a triangle with a light at each
point when the objects flew over a low flying helicopter. During
this two hour period, there was a very low light large hovering
that sparkled red, blue, green and white. At 11:50 PM, it dimmed
and flew off.

The next night we sat out at 10:15 PM, and saw thirty
"sparklers" flying northeast and behaving the same way as had
the others. We also sat out last night and saw ten sparkler
UFOs." I contacted an Air Force office in New Haven and they
said there were no bases in CT, the closest military base at
Montauk, NY was closed decades ago), and these objects "were not
ours." On the second night, a large bright white object appeared
low in the sky over the water, arced directly down towards the
water and disappeared. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com


Washington, DC - Cigar-Shaped Craft

The witness was out on the balcony of his sixth floor apartment
on August 31, 2004, inside the no-fly zone in Washington, DC on
a perfectly clear day when he saw a contrail. His sister joined
him on the balcony and he pointed to the contrail. The witness
states, "I saw a large metallic object appear out of one cloud
and realized that I could not distinguish any features that I
would normally recognize in a plane." I immediately said to her
"What's that?". Both of us watched it for three to five seconds
until it disappeared into another cloud. The diameter of the
object was slightly larger than the full moon appears and it was
flying in a south-easterly direction and ascending slightly.
There was no sound. It was not completely flat; and was a sort
of gunmetal color, maybe bordering closer to gold than silver.
The object was not shiny and had texture to it. There was no
sound and there were no lights. My sister said immediately,
"That was the classic cigar shape." She was right. This object
was flying well within the no-fly zone and away from the
traditional flight paths. On May 21, my sister and I saw balls
of light moving furiously in a counter clockwise circle ten feet
from our balcony windows. `Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

North Carolina - Lights Over Park

RALEIGH - At 9:30 PM, the witnesses were at the park on August
28, 2004, when everyone started pointing at a UFO in the sky way
above us. There were three or four dim star-like objects that at
first I thought might be a shooting star, but they started
moving in multiple directions, rapidly accelerating and changing
direction with no discernible purpose. I looked away to watch a
band play at the park, and when I looked again, they were gone.
The other twenty or so people who looked up and could spot them
were amazed. It really freaked a few people out. I had nothing
to drink and no other mind-altering substances. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Florida - Egg

BOYNTON BEACH -- On August 30, 2004, a big huge bright yellow
light was observed at 8:45 PM above the beach. The light faded
and three small red lights were seen for a short time. Then no
lights at all. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

Ohio - Reverse Video of Disk

Fostoria - George Ritter took this video of a disk craft on
august 25, 2004. This is a reverse colors image of the video.
Sixty miles away a crop circle was formed. See story below.
Thanks to George Ritter

Ohio - Crop Circle

DAYTON DAILY NEWS, James Cummings reports that, "Fall often
brings sightings of mysterious crop circles in Ohio, and this
season the Miami Valley has one of its own." Major John DiPietro
of the Miami Twp. police department spotted the pattern of
interlocking circles pressed into the cornfield about two weeks
ago. DiPietro was riding in a WHIO television news helicopter
scouting sites for DUI checkpoints when he saw the circles and
snapped a photograph. The photo appeared on the cover of the
Miamisburg-West Carrollton News. The crop circles are in a field
owned by the Miamisburg School District. Crop circle
investigator Jeffrey Wilson called the design "the most
impressive corn crop formation I've ever seen. "It's impressive
not just because of its size, but because of the exactness of
the geometry," Wilson said. "The corn stalks were laid flat, but
not broken and there was some interweaving." []

Photos by Jeffery Wilson Link to article with two photos:
http://www.daytondailynews.com/localnews/content/localnews/daily
/0910cropcircles.html

Kentucky - Flying Triangle

CORINTH - On August 29, 2004, two college students were
traveling back to the university on I-75 about 3 miles from
Corinth when they saw an object with lights on each tip that was
switching patterns. The witness states, "At 10:35 PM, my
girlfriend and I looked up in the sky and noticed that straight
ahead at about ten miles there was a bright light in the sky
that was flying west across the horizon." The object flew across
the horizon in about ten seconds and then stopped. After
stopping, it then dropped out a dark bundle like object. Soon
after that, it then turned and came towards us (south) rather
quickly. There was no sound at all. We traveled about a mile
down the road, and the object was almost instantly right in
front of us and began to hover slowly overtop of us. We drove
right under it and saw it was triangular with one light on each
point of the triangle. There was also a red light located next
to one of the lights. After the object went over top of us, I
looked out of my sunroof behind me and the lights began to
change into different patterns. They began flashing and changing
shapes using red, blue, and yellowish lights. It was impossible
to stop or turn around because of a median. But as we continued
driving, I watched out of the sunroof of my Ford Explorer and
noticed that it was still moving slowly over the interstate and
then up a little. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

Wisconsin - Six Crop Circles

WAUSAU -- The Country Journal of Hayward reports: One dairy
farmer in Wausau Township thinks there may be a paranormal
explanation to the crop circles in his barley field. Scott
Worden, 37, had two paranormal investigators inspect six crop
circles Saturday, August 28, 2004, that were found Monday by a
farmhand. "I just want to know what caused it. I know cows more
than I know circles," Worden said. He runs the farm with his
brother, Tim, and dad, Darrell. Thanks to the Country Journal
8/28/04 Canada is also reporting many new crop circles.

Illinois - Light seen on Lake Michigan

CHICAGO -- On August 31, 2004, at 6:20 PM, while driving east on
the Kennedy Expressway (I-90) on his way into work the witness
saw a bright spot of light that appeared to be over the lake.
The light looked as though it was not moving, just hovering.
After a few minutes the light faded rather abruptly so I doubt
if it was Venus or Saturn. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

Missouri - Sphere

VIENNA -- This is a follow-up to the August 29, 2004, report.
Ever since I saw this object at 6:45 PM, and was able to take
pictures....I've watched for it. I barbecued today and was
sitting there with my binocular/camera looking up and saw my
"possible celestial body" moving at a high rate of speed across
the sky faster than a passenger jet plane. I was able to get two
photos of it before it was gone. One was blurry. But the other
one was good. Thanks to Peter Davenport www.UFOCenter.com

ST. JAMES -- On August 26, 2004, a father and son were driving
home 7:35 PM, and it was still pretty light outside and the sky
was very clear, when they saw an oval shaped object in the sky.
They state, "We clearly saw a long oval shape with a sort of
tail on it, that didn't appear to move, but appeared to be
getting smaller....possibly moving further away to the west. It
was an orange/yellow color. The tail disappeared and the object
appeared to be just a circle of orange/yellow. Then eventually
we lost sight of it." Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

Kansas - Bright Cylinder

TOPEKA -- On August 25, 2004, the witness a private pilot
reports, "I observed a bright white or silver tube shaped object
flying from south to north just below the top but up next to a
wall of dark storm clouds over Topeka at 6 PM." The object was
about three times as long as it was wide, but the overall size
was hard to judge. It was traveling at about the speed of an
airplane but after flying for a minute it stopped in the air and
was stationary for a few minutes. The object was very visible
against the darkness of the clouds and I could see turbulence in
the clouds being blown around it. The turbulence did not appear
to affect it. The object then gradually faded away. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Arkansas - Cigar

SOCIAL HILL - The witness reports seeing a flying cigar as he
drove west on I-30 at exactly the 92 mile marker at 11:50 PM, on
August 25, 2004. The craft was going north towards Hot Springs
and it had two non- flashing lights on each end of the cigar
shaped craft. It was flying sideways, like if an airliner was
flying sideways with no wings. The bottom was grayish black and
yellowish lights were reflecting off itself, but not flashing.
It was flying at 1500 to 2000 feet altitude and there was a
small light plane following it. The cigar was about 3/4 of a
mile out in front of the plane and was about as long as a
passenger jet but flying much too slow and low to be one. Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Louisiana - Two White Lights

BAKER - The witness saw two white lights flying by at 9:45 PM,
on August 25, 2004, that he thought were planes until they began
moving erratically in the sky. It was an overcast night and they
would appear and disappear in and out of the clouds erratically.
This went on for about thirty minutes but then it disappeared.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Texas - Chemtrail UFO

KAUFMAN -- Brian Vike received this report, "I was videoing a
chemtrail on September 6, 2004, at 6:30 PM, that had just been
laid. I noticed something bright on the northeast end above it,
but by the time I started taping, it was in front of the trail.
I taped it till I lost it in the tree. Whatever it was had a
short little trail behind it. It was heading west coming from
the east. I thought this was odd because I've been sky watching
regular now for about a year and I've never seen a plane with a
short trail, they either have a long trail, about ten times the
length of the plane, or they're laying a trail across the sky,
or have no trail at all. It was about 7:52 p.m. when I saw a
flash in the northeast sky, I had my camera then and I pointed
toward where I saw it and snapped it. The bright one was
catching the sun, but the chemtrail was blocking the other one
from being lit up. These were heading nearly due north. To me
the picture shows the UFOs aren't planes, and they also have
short trails as in the video clip. The video and picture were
taken in Kaufman County, 20 miles east of Dallas, Texas. The
video clip is at:
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D18
[]

Thanks to Brian Vike www.hbccufo.com

Colorado - Huge Saucer and flying Triangle

DENVER -- About 7:30 PM, on September 11, 2004, while leaving a
local store the witness saw a huge perfectly shaped light golden
saucer, brilliantly lit in the western sky. The sun had just set
and the small clouds were dark gray. Fifteen degrees above the
horizon there was a saucer that was two inches in length, and
about 1/2 inch high at arm's length. It had an absolutely
perfect shape, and could not be a cloud. It drifted very slowly
south until the trees obscured it. There were no flashing
lights, just a beautiful bright golden glow. Thanks to Brian
Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Colorado -

ENGLEWOOD -- On August 30, 2004, at 10 PM, the witness saw a
star-like small point of light. I have reported this type of
event several times over the past month and with binoculars it
looks like a whitish sphere. It remained stationary for two
minutes and flew off to the south in roughly 15 to 20 seconds.
About a half-hour prior to the white sphere sighting the witness
saw a metallic red sphere for a minute or two, also seemingly
motionless and very high in the sky.

Later, using the binoculars there was some sort of military
craft; a dull gray, flattened triangle without a fuselage with
just a large gray wing. It was much wider than long, with the
shorter point of the triangle in the direction of flight. The
sound was similar to a regular jet, although it did seem to
rumble a bit longer than I would have expected as it disappeared
in the distance. I got a good look at it; it was definitely no
ordinary aircraft. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

New Mexico -- White Circular Object

ALBUQUERQUE -- On August 30, 2004, at 4:10 PM, looking east and
up about 30 degrees from horizontal, the witness noticed a round
white object. I said to my wife that a child's balloon got away,
but it held my attention and I didn't know why at first. It was
rising beneath a cloud formation and the wind was blowing 20 to
30 mph. At first it looked like a solid white balloon that had
been released from a nearby shopping center seconds earlier that
was maybe 150 feet up.

As I and my wife watched, we both said that it was no balloon of
any kind because it was rising straight up, too fast with no
sideways movement to be a helium balloon. It continued to rise
in a non-swirling uninterrupted manner until it was about 80
degrees over head. I stopped and got out of the car to continue
viewing. When I looked back up it had moved north across the sky
in a northerly direction at high speed. My wife asked where it
was and I took my eyes off of it to glance at her and when I
looked back it was gone. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director

ALBUQUERQUE - A licensed general contractor and ultralight
instructor saw lights that were different and made rapid
gyrations that were too violent to be a normal aircraft. This
sighting occurred one mile north of I-40 in the Rio Puerco
Valley on August 30, 2004, at 8:45 PM. The witness saw an
unusual light heading toward his ranch house and retrieved his
field glasses and observed a set of red, white, and blue
blinking lights. The craft was traveling slowly south. The
aircraft was closer now, but I could only see the lights
blinking at twice the rate of aircraft strobe lights. I lowered
the binoculars and watched the aircraft begin to dart about much
the way a hummingbird would. This activity went on for several
minutes. The shape of the craft was not distinguishable. The
rapid gyrations were covering about 10 degrees of sweep right to
left, left to right and up and down. I hurried into the house
and asked my wife to check out this object in the sky. When we
went outside the object was gone. My wife and I own a Powered
Paraglider School which we operate from our ranch. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

California - Disk

MODESTO - R. David Anderson reports, "I have taken more pictures
of a UFO that moves in a zig zag pattern. I think that these
pictures are important because they show how UFOs move. I have
read from other accounts that UFOs move in this way. These
pictures are a good analysis of this zig zag movement. Notice
that the star is not at all slurred, demonstrating the stability
of my camera mount. Thanks to R. David Anderson []

PATERSON - On August 27, 2004, the driver was on I-5 at 2 PM,
when he saw a strange disc, and when he returned four hours
later driving north on I-5 in almost the same spot he again saw
the object. First he saw the sun reflecting on an aircraft
banking, but when he looked harder it disappeared. So whatever
it was, it seemed to be moving to reposition itself to be
camouflaged against the sky. But, unlike others, which I have
noticed over airports at times, this object was in the same area
moving again to "reposition" itself with a flash or glint of sun
reflecting off a silver metal disc before totally disappearing.
There was no noise from engines. Four hours later he saw it over
a power line grid off the interstate about 500 to 1000 feet up.

SAN JUAN BATISTA - The witnesses were driving on SR Hwy 101 on
August 31, 2004, at 8:45 PM, when they noticed a large shining
object in the sky. It was very bright, like a star but moving
like a plane at first, and then a smaller bright object dropped
out of the bottom of the craft and fell directly under it. They
report, "We never saw a flash like a crash, it just disappeared
from sight, but the larger object stayed in the area, and we
finally drove further south and could no longer see it." Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Washington - Three Craft

NORDLAND -- On August 30, 2004, a family observed three craft in
formation at an excessive rate of speed flying at 150 to 200
feet above Puget Sound. At 8:45 PM, three craft flying in a
triangular formation were spotted. The two lead craft were about
100 feet apart flying parallel and the 3rd craft was about 200
feet back in line with the craft on the left. We could not
distinguish there shape due to the darkness. They were traveling
down the Puget Sound at an excessive rate of speed and once they
reach about the City of Everett, Washington they stopped and
hovered for several minutes. They made no sound. They were
observed by myself, my wife and our 4 children. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com

Alaska Stationary Object Over Coast Guard Base

KODIAK ISLAND - On September 8, 2004, brothers went fishing for
salmon near the COMSTA Coast Guard base and relaxed in the warm
weather watching contrails from jets departing from Anchorage
from 2 to 3 PM. A silvery dot was maintaining a precise location
high in the sky while the contrails drifted over the mountain
tops. There was almost no wind so it was unlikely to be a
weather balloon. It was in and out of the contrails but never
moved anywhere across the sky. The witness was a former Air
Force member. The silver dot was suspended there. The high
altitude contrails didn't blow away either but simply expanded
and grew thinner. The craft must have been quite high because it
was obscured but did NOT disappear within the contrails. When we
left it was still there, after two hours in the same spot and it
stayed in the same position even as the jets passed by every ten
minutes. A few lower clouds were moving across the tops of the
mountains. http://209.165.152.119/radios/commsta.html

Canada - Corporate Jet Pilots See UFOs

EDMONTON, ALBERTA -- "I am a highly experienced corporate jet
pilot operating out of the West Coast of British Columbia. I was
a crew member on our company aircraft during the early morning
hours of Sunday, May 10, 2004 on a flight from Syracuse, New
York to Calgary, Alberta. No passengers were on board, only the
two pilot crew. As we approached Empress, Alberta at 39,000 feet
and preparing for descent, we noticed a very bright light in the
northwest sky at about 12 degrees above the horizon. As the
bright light (same intensity as Venus or Jupiter) traveled
southeast and came closer it "seemed" to transform into nine
plus objects. The other pilot maintains that there were twelve
objects. The salient feature was that the three trailing objects
were 1/3 of the brightness of the forward numbers which were at
least as bright as Venus at 12:23 AM. The objects appeared to be
flying in an organized formation at 700 to 1000 nautical miles
per hour and possibly very much faster. There was no apparent
trajectory and the lights appeared to maintain a perfectly level
altitude throughout the duration.

We were in perfectly clear conditions and we have the absolute
conviction this was NOT a meteor, nor a meteor breaking up
because of a total lack of trajectory. The objects were flying
at about 10,000 feet at a distance of perhaps 5-15 nautical
miles at their closest point. Distances and altitudes can be
extremely hard to judge with certainty. Both pilots agree the
duration of the event was about 15 seconds. There was no other
aircraft in the vicinity this early Sunday morning since this
occurrence was definitely spectacular enough that other aircraft
would have asked Edmonton Centre what this was?

HBCC UFO Note: There were six other reports, some spectacular,
that occurred at, or near Edmonton during our time frame.
(Pilots words: (If one considers there is linkage to these
events (ours to one or more of the other 3), and considering the
others apparently involve low altitude movements (close to
treetops) it all becomes very very intriguing. I now wonder what
really did take place that early morning, knowing that these
lights were making low altitude movements "close to treetops" !
Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO

England - Cigar and Intensely White Object

LONDON -- We were in busy traffic on Finchley Road on August 29,
2004, at 10:30 PM, when we saw a completely dark round object
that stuck out like a sore thumb in the clear sky. The object
was the brightest object in the sky and glowed intensely white
and then stayed like that for a good 15 seconds before fading
out and disappearing from view. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director www.UFOCenter.com

ALDERSHOT -- The sighting of a mystery object in the sky over
the weekend has baffled passers-by, air traffic control experts
and Army officials. A couple spotted the object on Saturday
September 4, 2004, as they played with their sons in Aldershot
Park. The cigar-shaped object appeared in the sky at about 2:15
PM, and the family watched it ducking around for around 20
minutes. =E2=80=9CIt caught our attention because it didn't move like
an aircraft,=E2=80=9D said the mother. It was a shiny cylinder-shaped
object with random moves and it turned and flew horizontally,
vertically and diagonally.=E2=80=9D The News received several other
calls about sightings. The director of Farnborough International
Airport Ann Bartaby said the object was nothing to do with them.
The Army said, =E2=80=9CWe were not flying any type of cylinder-shaped
aircraft on Saturday afternoon. Thanks to Jim Hickman and
Skywatch-International.

To Become A Member Of Skywatch-International

http://www.skywatch-international.org/skywatch_membership_application.pdf

Spain - Bright white lights

MURCIA, Mazarron -- On August 30, 2004, at 8:45 PM, with some
light from the setting sun the witness saw a pinprick of white
light at the edge of his vision. He spotted two objects of
pinhead size, bright white in intensity, that lasted only a
fraction of a second. Shortly after that there was a further
flash of light for a fraction of a second, but this was much
larger, about a quarter of an inch across. The sky was clear and
light enough to have seen an airplane or helicopter, and I
neither saw nor heard anything. The sighting lasted about one
minute.www.UFOCenter.com

Sri Lanka - Six Lights

ATHRUGIRIYA - The witnesses including two medical doctors saw
six blinking large stationary stars in a straight line towards
west northwest on August 30, 2004, at 8:45 PM. Except for the
second star that moved towards the first, all the others were
stationary. These were bigger than normal stars and their colors
varied from pinkish, orange to silver. Blinking was more
pronounced than normal stars. After some time two stars
disappeared and the second star of the remaining four stars,
moved towards the adjacent star. After some time, two more stars
disappeared. Finally the two that merged faded away. The whole
episode took about 15-20 minutes. No other stars could be seen
and these were unusually bright and aligned in a straight line,
with one star moving towards the other and pronounced blinking.
One of the observers has a PhD. in Economics. Other witnesses
were two housewives, three children and pool attendants. Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com


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www.GeorgeFiler.com/









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 16

              Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Olmos

From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:18:40 +0200 (CEST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:04:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Olmos


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:12:57 -0700
>Subject: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>Jaime Maussan is showing his real interest in UFOs... Money!
>You can buy the 'History' for 350.00 Mexican Pesos or
>$33.00 USD.

>Visit:

>http://www.homolongevus.tv/portal/con_histori.htm

>Translation with:

>http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr


That was a good reason to hide the video recording from real
researchers! It was generally known but few dared to say that.
Now the evidence is there to be seen.

The works by Smith, Franz, Mori or Poher were enough to kill
this case, and this commercial episode illustrates the
credibility of the man behind the video tape, for those who did
not know the person. I hope some people on this List can learn
about it.


V-J









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   Sep > Sep 16

              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:55:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:17:18 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:37:01 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:14:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell


John,

>>(I am amused to observe once again that I spend far less time
>>thinking about the ETH than the obsessives of the pelicanist
>>school do. But then, they deem it the most threatening and hated
>>of all heresies which must be run down and crushed whenever
>>pelicanists think they have detected the faintest wisp of it.
>>Not being preoccupied with theory, I prefer more pragmatic
>>approaches which eventually, we hope, will allow us to construct
>>hypotheses on firmer grounds than are currently available. In
>>the meantime, I remain convinced that UFOs and other major
>>anomalies involve phenomena, whether ultimately found to be
>>trivial or seminal, that lie beyond current knowledge. I also
>>suspect - since no other explanation makes sense to me - that
>>some or many experiences of the anomalous grow out of
>>extraordinary, little-understood aspects of consciousness (an
>>issue that in fact has been the focus of my research and major
>>interest in recent years),

>An interesting revelation. Are you yet ready to publish anything
>on this research?

I have already provided citations in which I have discussed the
issues in question at length. I'm sure I will be writing more
about it in the future. I am not surprised that you are
unfamiliar with this writing, which explains a lot.

>I certainly agree with you that many UFO-
>related events - particularly abductions - may be related to as-
>yet unregarded aspects of consciousness. If fact I would say
>that such a realisation stands behind much psychosocial ufology.

I certainly did not mean to leave that impression. I regard the
treatment of these issues in psychosocial literature as
cartoonish, simply debunking ("traditions of disbelief," in
Hufford's wonderful phrase) under another name. It is my view
that abduction experiences are profoundly anomalous whether
related to the core UFO phenomenon (of daylight discs,
radar/visuals, CE2s) or not.

Psychosociologists, on the other hand, contend that abductions
arise from known psychological phenomena (confabulation
prominently though hardly exclusively) or at least some sort of
extension of same. I emphatically disagree. In my reading of the
PSH literature, I observe only contempt for ufologists who argue
that abductions represent phenomena not understandable via
current knowledge.


>>but that other reports describe
>>genuine, real-world events. Until we know more about them -
>>which will not happen until science devotes its full resources
>>to addressing these questions - a degree of intellectual
>>modesty, apparently beyond John's capacity to sustain or even
>>imagine, seems in order.

>This sort of brings us back to where this by now too-long-
>extended UFO UpDates thread started (I think - maybe it was at
>the start of some other thread!) with a discussion of the
>Chiles-Whitted sighting. If the description given by the two
>pilots was an accurate representation of what passed their
>aircraft it is difficult to conclude that it was anything other
>than a structured craft. However a number of UFO researchers,
>not all of them in the sceptical camp, have concluded that the
>witnesses interpretation of what they saw was at variance with
>the actual phenomonon the witnessed - in other words that they
>were mistaken.

>We have seen here that Brad Sparks - a researcher that Jerry
>thinks highly of for his analysis of the RB-47 Radar-Visual case
>- does not rate Chiles-Whitted very highly, nor, after two
>changes of mind, did Allen Hynek. I don't think either of these
>gentlemen were claiming that the two pilots were lying, but they
>do cast serious doubt on their interpretation of what was
>undoubtedly a "genuine real-world event".

And so I take it that you also agree with Brad Sparks that the
RB-47 case proves the existence of UFOs and that the Mogul
explanation for Roswell is hogwash. If not, what is your point?
_Of course_ you believe CW saw a meteor. What else, given your
ideology, could you believe it to be? Brad Sparks and I agree on
some things, and we disagree on others. That's how it should be.
We are not carbon copies of one another, nor would we want to
be.

Likewise, Allen Hynek, whom I knew fairly well, entertained many
ideas with which I disagreed and about which we debated. (It was
always cordial, and Allen used to tell me that he enjoyed our
arguments and found them stimulating.) Sometimes, in common with
all thoughtful humans, Allen changed his mind or simply didn't
know what to think.

The CW sighting was a particularly troublesome issue to him. He
was haunted the thought that he had made serious mistakes in the
early days of the UFO era; he wondered if he himself had not
made it possible for his fellow scientists to ignore the UFO
phenomenon and its implications. Historically, the CW report
could have been a milestone (remember, the earliest
investigators of it, from Project Sign, were deeply impressed
and puzzled). Allen's rejection of it helped destroy Sign and
turn the Air Force's interaction with the phenomenon in a
radically new direction, leading to Grudge and the sorry
developments that followed. I suspect that that realization may
have been hard to bear, and that is why he stuck stubbornly to
the meteor hypothesis over many years, despite private
reservations.

By the way, your quote from me - "genuine real-world event" -
indicates that you do not understand what I mean by that phrase
and that you have not read my criteria for making that judgment
when we analyze anomalous reports.

>I know that Jerry thinks highly of James McDonald's views on
>this case, but on reading his submission to the 1968 US House
>Committee Symposium on UFOs, I was amazed to find that he
>interviewed the two pilots in 1968, *twenty years* after the
>event. In these circumstances I cannot regard this interview as
>having anything other than anecdotal value.

Let us consider just how silly your claim is. Chiles and Whitted
were interviewed within a very short time after their sighting.
Are we to disregard that testimony - even though it is
fundamentally consistent with the testimony they gave to James
McDonald 20 years later? What are you trying to say? That their
testimony, whether rendered immediately or years later, is of no
probative value, and that only your beliefs, based on nothing
except a predisposed hostility to anomalous UFOs, have any
value?

As I have stated before, those who actually interviewed the
pilots thought they had seen an anomalous structured object.
Those who hadn't favored and favor the meteor hypothesis. Does
that tell us something? I should think so. It also tells us, yet
again, the unfalsifiability of the pelicanist approach, from
which no anomalous UFO could ever emerge. Basically, your
position comes down to this: How do we know Chiles and Whitted
saw a meteor? Because they gave testimony to something else,
which could not have existed, and because testimony, except when
it attests to the known and prosaic, cannot be trusted, ever.
When it comes to knowing what they saw, I'll take Chiles and
Whitted over you every time.


Jerry Clark









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   Sep > Sep 17

                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:48:16 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:33:11 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:10:28 EDT
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:05:45 +0200
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>>The Roswell case has been studied by a lot of researchers since
>>the 70's. They have found many witnesses, who have led to a
>>scenario of UFO/s crash/es, even if the story is not completely
>>known yet.

>But those researchers ignore the witnesses whose stories they
>don't like, the ones who confirm something mysterious, but have
>_not_ led to a scenario of crashed UFO spaceship or alien bodies.

>This is why these researchers do not want to hear what I say,
>don't beat down my door (so to speak) in an encouraging effort
>to find out what I have found out or make any effort to
>facilitate publication of my work or further research to help it
>along - because they really don't want to know, they don't want
>my findings confirmed or supported in any way.

>Likewise for the skeptics and debunkers.

>Both sides are in agreement to suppress or icily ignore this
>Roswell development. It does not represent to either side an
>exciting development, but rather a onerous undermining or
>negation of everything they claim to stand for on Roswell.

>It's not about the search for truth with these partisans, both
>pro-UFO and anti-UFO. It's about whose side "wins."


Brad

I am interested in the search of the truth, whatever it turns
out to be, and I am sure I'm not alone. Have you passed your
findings to people like David Rudiak, Bob Durant, Mark
Rodeghier, Bruce Maccabee, Wendy Connors?

I don't believe that all the researchers would refuse to listen,
if you have found something very important on Roswell.

Well, I suppose this is going to be another "Roswell mystery". I
am sorry that you don't want to say more.

BTW, last year, I showed that  just by carefully reading the
USAF Roswell Report, it is pretty obvious that Mogul 4 never
took off. I don't recall much interest about this on the List,
with the exception of David Rudiak. I don't think you said
one word about it.

The lack of response may be frustrating, and I understand
your irritation.

I could give other examples.


Gildas Bourdais








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   Sep > Sep 17

                Magonia - The Truth Is There [Was: New Mexico

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:48:15 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:49:26 -0400
Subject: Magonia - The Truth Is There [Was: New Mexico


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:07:52 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:23:37 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:56:45 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>Thank you John for providing us with a crystal clear example
>of hypocrisy.

>>All of the above coming from a man who regularly insults and
>>abuses people in Magonia, who frequently refers to abductees
>>as mad or suggests they shouldn't be allowed out
>>unaccompanied, and so on and so on.

>Would you please provide an example of anywhere in Magonia -
>or anywhere in my book "The Evidence for Alien Abductions",
>where I have said that abductees are "mad" or "should not be
>allowed out unaccompanied", or anything like that? Or indeed
>any other examples of regular insult and abuse.


Certainly John;

From Magonia 83, December 2003:


Dr David Jacobs, one of the most notorious abduction
researchers, sees the whole business as physical rather than
psychological and believes that very little can be done about
it. He writes:

"The secrecy surrounding the abduction phenomenon shows that the
aliens have instituted an elaborate effort to prevent their
detection. Detection, therefore, may be where they are the most
vulnerable. If so, then perhaps we still have the opportunity to
intervene. Yet so far, all our attempts at intervention and
prevention have been ineffective. Experiments to interfere in
abductions by using video cameras and other electronic equipment
have, by and large, failed to stop them, although they have
sometimes decreased their recurrence." (3)

The Pelican has asked similar questions before, but it seems he
needs to keep on asking: Can a person who writes something like
the above paragraph, and who is presumably not joking, be sane?
The Pelican's answer must be No, otherwise the concept of
insanity loses its meaning. The thing to be done, therefore, is
to urge people like Jacobs, Hopkins and others to seek the
appropriate treatments for their condition. They are unlikely to
listen, of course, so their pernicious practices, such as
conducting hypnotic regressions while asking leading questions
about disgusting grey aliens, should be actively denounced and
discouraged, and their writings should be given the critical
scrutiny which will expose them as the irrational nonsense that
they are.


-----

You are the editor. You take responsiblity for the following:


John Harney gets infuriatingly supercilious about a recent
addition to the UFO abduction literature:

Budd Hopkins and Carol Rainey, Sight Unseen: Science, UFO
Invisibility and Transgenic Beings, Atria Books, New York, 2003

One of them concerns the abductee Katharina Wilson who told
Hopkins about an occasion when she flew from Portland, Oregon to
Chicago to speak at a UFO conference

So it seems we can indulge in any sort of fantastic speculation
apart from the obvious one that Wilson was suffering from one of
her mental fugues which caused her to lose an hour by wandering
around aimlessly. This story will cause more sensible readers to
wonder, not about a "changeable human energy field" (whatever
that might be), but whether Wilson is fit to be allowed out on
her own.

-----

Pelican 6

As the Pelican prepared to express his deep concern for American
ufology, and in particular for the mental health of its
practitioners, a communication from Hilary Evans - who needs no
introduction to our well-read readers - arrived at the
luxuriously appointed Magonia editorial offices. This expressed
remarkably similar sentiments. Great minds think alike! Who said
the Pelican was a birdbrain?

In particular, Hilary noted that American ufologists took each
other's books seriously, even if they were as crazy as Jacobs's
The Threat or Hopkins's Witnessed, instead of expressing concern
about the mental states of their authors. (1) He concluded: "Are
these people writing fun books for entertainment only? Or
seriously, to work something out of their system? Or simply to
make a quick buck? Sometimes I find myself hoping that it's the
last of these alternatives."

Meanwhile, in the UK, we have our ETHers and other nutters.
There are the entertainers, who write silly books and give
sillier lectures, illustrated with fuzzy video clips. There are
the mentally unbalanced and the purveyors of numerous cranky
theories, each of which purports to explain nearly all UFO
reports. Then there are a few who take a practical, pragmatic
view of UFO stories and simply try to establish the facts of
each case, wherever this is possible. They know who they can
trust, and who they should avoid in helping with their
investigations, or they quickly find out.


-----

The above took about 10 minutes to dig out. Given a little more
time and inclination, I would have also included some of the
countless examples of abuse towards those who hold different
views from you. Now where have I heard that phrase before?

So in conclusion John, you are an undoubted hypocrite of the
worst kind.

An do me a further favour. Don't pat me on the head
patronisingly, as you recently did with Alfred, wherebye you
goaded him for days about not being able to come up with
references for something or other, only to then ignore his
efforts when he did.

While I have, in the past, reacted negatively to calls on this
List for your resignation, I'm beginning to feel that the time
might now be more appropriate for such a consideration. Your
presence here is no longer meaningful. It is, by your now own
admission, a game, wherebye you creep into the lions den,
raffishly tug his tail, and then run away squealing in childish
glee, back to your similarly childish friends. It's boring and
you must realise that you aren't taken seriously here any
longer.


Stuart Miller








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 17

             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:36:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:51:14 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:56:13 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:36:02 EDT
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>You ignored all of my substantive posts on discovering top
>>secret Roswell military policy response by the AAF/AF, and on
>>three best multiple-witness visual scientist-engineer UFO cases,
>>of LaPaz, Kelly Johnson-Lockheed (triangulation, 25,000 mph
>>escape into space), and the top Pentagon R&D official
>>(triangulation, 36,000 mph escape into space).

>Sorry about that. Can you give me details of websites or
>published sources where I might be able to find full details of
>these cases?


I gave all that in previous posts, not going to repeat myself.
No time for these games.







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              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:15:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:00:00 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Clark


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:07:52 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:23:37 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:56:45 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>You've lost this one John. You are intellectually bereft of
>>any further solid contribution to this discussion, as in fact
>>you have been for some considerable time. It's just been a game
>>with you to try and wind up Jerry Clark and you've bored us all
>>to death with your semantics and childishness.

>Whilst I would not deny the pleasure to be had winding up
>Jerry Clark - who seems to find it impossible not to reply to
>anything I post on UpDates despite numerous annoucements that he
>will cease doing so - I do try to make solid contributions to
>discussions. It is hardly my fault if Mr Clark (and others)
>choose to <snip>the relevant parts when they reply.

In the interest of strict factual accuracy, John, my statements
about discontinuing further discussion are always focused on
specific threads, in which further conversation and debate
strike me as pointless. I do not mean, however, that I will
"cease" all discussion with you on _any_ thread. Please read
more carefully than you do, I fear, habitually. In any event,
getting you all wound up is a perverse pleasure I find
impossible to resist for long. Keep it up, John, and I'll keep
up my end.

Cordially,

Jerry Clark (aka "Jawsy Cluck")

P.S. Once again, I have snipped John's pearls of ageless wisdom,
forcing believers in them to go to the UpDates archives to find
them. Sorry, pilgrims.








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   Sep > Sep 17

             Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:24:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:05:21 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:26:12 -0700
>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:51:39 -0500
>>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:24:21 -0700
>>>Subject: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>>Hello all,

>>>A Picture or Video is Worth a Thousand Words.

>>>As I can see the Mexican Air Force is not going to fly or
>>>present any test from the FLIR video of march 05, 2004.

>>>I was hoping to fly over the Gulf of Mexico this summer and have
>>>the opportunity to film the Cantarell oil field in good weather
>>>conditions and it happened days ago.

>>>I was flying from Mexico City to Cancun over the Gulf of Mexico
>>>on Sept. 03 and I get some nice shots very similar to the FLIR
>>>"lights" of the Mexican Air Force Video from march 05, 2004.

>>>The next day, on Sept. 04, I returned back to Mexico City and
>>>again I took some nice pictures and video.

>>>I hope the images are enough convincing for you as hey are for
>>>me. If you need more information I'll be glad to answer any
>>>questions.

>><snip>

>>Did you actually get a visual sighting of the oil flares?

>Yes, they were in sight (naked eye) for more than 30 minutes.
>Cantarell oil well flares are burning all the time 365 days a
>year.

>Cantarell oil well flares can be seen from the shore at Ciudad
>del Carmen.

>>If so, can you guess why the crew didn't?.

>I guess the crew is not enough trained or experienced as to
>provide any reliable info. The RADAR operator told the crew the
>objects were in many positions related to the airplane's
>position and in a closer distance so the pilot maybe saw the
>lights from the oil wells but he was looking for closer objects.

>Mexican Air Force Pilots do not fly more than 10 hours a month
>and their training is extremely poor. Also the RADAR was not
>working well and it will show up in the 6th or 7th part of the
>video audio transcript.


How many hours of training are required to learn how to look out
of a window?

Has anyone asked the crew if they saw the lights from the oil
wells and then simply ignored them? I find this highly unlikely.








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   Sep > Sep 17

             Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:24:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:06:19 -0400
Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words -


>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:26:12 -0700
>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words


>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:51:39 -0500
>>Subject: Re: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:24:21 -0700
>>>Subject: A Picture Or Video Is Worth A Thousand Words

>>>Hello all,

>>>A Picture or Video is Worth a Thousand Words.

>>>As I can see the Mexican Air Force is not going to fly or
>>>present any test from the FLIR video of march 05, 2004.

>>>I was hoping to fly over the Gulf of Mexico this summer and
have
>>>the opportunity to film the Cantarell oil field in good
weather
>>>conditions and it happened days ago.

>>>I was flying from Mexico City to Cancun over the Gulf of
Mexico
>>>on Sept. 03 and I get some nice shots very similar to the FLIR
>>>"lights" of the Mexican Air Force Video from march 05, 2004.

>>>The next day, on Sept. 04, I returned back to Mexico City and
>>>again I took some nice pictures and video.

>>>I hope the images are enough convincing for you as hey are for
>>>me. If you need more information I'll be glad to answer any
>>>questions.

>><snip>

>>Did you actually get a visual sighting of the oil flares?

>Yes, they were in sight (naked eye) for more than 30 minutes.
>Cantarell oil well flares are burning all the time 365 days a
>year.

>Cantarell oil well flares can be seen from the shore at Ciudad
>del Carmen.

>>If so, can you guess why the crew didn't?.

>I guess the crew is not enough trained or experienced as to
>provide any reliable info. The RADAR operator told the crew the
>objects were in many positions related to the airplane's
>position and in a closer distance so the pilot maybe saw the
>lights from the oil wells but he was looking for closer objects.

>Mexican Air Force Pilots do not fly more than 10 hours a month
>and their training is extremely poor. Also the RADAR was not
>working well and it will show up in the 6th or 7th part of the
>video audio transcript.


How many hours of training are required to learn how to look out
of a window?

Has anyone asked the crew if they saw the lights from the oil
wells and then simply ignored them? I find this highly unlikely.








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                     LUFOS UFO Meeting October 15th 2004

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:06:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:10:06 -0400
Subject: LUFOS UFO Meeting October 15th 2004


Hi List,

For anyone who may be near or live around East London, this
might be a great night for a rather interesting UFO lecture:


Ann Andrews co-author of Abducted, will be giving a lecture for
London UFO Studies - Roy Lake - on the 15th of OCtober.

This case is quite fascinating, and quite an eye opener on
abductions.

This will be held at the Unity Hall, Walthamstow, London
8-11 pm.

I have attended many LUFOS meetings in the past, with quite a
few well known names giving lectures, Bruni, Pope, Williams and
many more.

You are guaranteed a great night out, in this newly refurbished
meeting hall, along with refreshments with book and DVD, Video
stalls. A great time to meet other UFO researchers, and have a
chat with the lecturer on most occasions.

All presented by Roy lake, a chap with a good humour, and always
likes having a good conversation on UFOs with the public!

For the poster details click here:

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/LUFOS.htm


Regards,

Roy








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                         Forward From Jaime Maussan

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:28:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:23:25 -0400
Subject: Forward From Jaime Maussan


FYI List.

Especially for those who have pre-judged.

John Velez

-----

From: Jaime Maussan <.nul>
To: brumac.nul
Cc: johnvelez.aic.nul
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:52:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: A Confusion

Dr. Maccabee and John:

Just a few words:

The video from The Mexican Air Force is not and never has been
for sale.

I have a new director in my company and who thought (without
consulting me) that to sell the video would be a good idea.

However such video hasn=B4t even been made.

I just talk to my director and he offered me his resignation.

Tomorrow we will offer a complete explanation on this.

I feel embarrassed.

I can not commercialize this video because is not mine, belongs
to the Military.


Jaime Maussan









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                     UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:09:00 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:33:50 -0400
Subject: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)


UFO News 17th September 2004 (Australia)

A report on the activities of UFO Research Queensland Inc.
Brisbane, Australia. www.uforq.asn.au

"In the end, the abduction phenomenon seems to be a part of
the shift in consciousness that is collapsing duality and enabling
us to see that we are connected beyond the Earth at a
cosmic level." - Dr John Mack


Sightings/Encounters/Investigations
Sighting reports have mainly been of lights in the sky
of late but we did receive two reports of special interest
which are below.

Massive Bright Orange Ball
This report occurred on the 13th June in Kalbar, Queensland when
two nurses were out walking in the evening around 7pm and saw a
"massive" bright orange ball approximately 4 to 5 times bigger
than Venus coming towards them at a speed that appeared "faster
than a jet". They observed it for 3 to 5 minutes and as it got
closer it's light  faded out but they could still see it's
silhouette. They could hear no sound made by the object at any
time. They both commented that they were "level headed women who
do not scare easily" but both felt scared after the incident.

Cigar-shaped object
Another report occurred about 15 years ago when a man was
driving on the highway about 30 minutes south of Rockhampton.
The incident occurred in the evening when he drove up a hill to
then look down into a valley. This is where he saw what he first
thought was a plane about to crash  but which turned out to be a
cigar-shaped object about "the size of the body of the largest
plane and about 2 storeys high" which came to hover just below
tree height. He pulled his car off the road and got out to get a
better look at what he was seeing.

The object travelled about 20klms/hr and silently glided over
him only 15 to 20 metres above without "making a whisper". It
was very brightly lit and seemed to be shiny (not metallic) but
like colour bonded steel in a "bright orange colour".

It had 10 windows around it "about 3/4 the size of a an
average bedroom window" which were all square at the bottom
but coming to a peak at the top like "windows of a church".

The front "windscreen" of the object had "full panel windows"
(meaning from floor to ceiling) that were completely black which
went right around the front and slightly around to the objects
sides. The windows were so black the witness could not see
anything inside and he "got the impression they were one way
windows". The object looked very solid and had "no seams" which
made it look like it was "pre-finished". It also appeared "very
solid" to the witness and "well built, not like anything we have
here".

The witness said he got the impression the object was made
for underwater  travel as well as through the air. I quizzed him
why he thought this but all he would say was "that was
the impression I got".

He estimated the object to be as bright as 1000 watts and he
said he "got a really good look at it since it was so close". He
also saw what seemed to be square landing pods underneath it
that had "the roughness of acorns" on them "possibly for good
traction". He watched the object for 3 minutes in total "enough
time to get a really good look at it".

While he was parked and looking at the object another car came
over the hill and ran off the side of the road but did not stop.
It was obvious to the witness that the driver of the other car
saw the object too.


Media
Media interest has been minimal over the last few months
however public response has remained steady via telephone
and web site enquiries and new meeting goers. The
weekly radio show offers us the opportunity to discuss the
UFO subject but often drifts to other seemingly
paranormal subjects as well as space matters and
scientific discoveries.

Questions about science fiction vs. science fact have been
raised and the idea that the two are not very far apart after
all seems to be slowly cementing in the public's mind.

Talk of the Australian Police force using instruments to send
out an electromagnetic pulse to immobolise vehicles and reduce
high speed car chases does not seem too far removed from the
idea of ray guns. The hand held medical devices that can detect
heart rates, blood pressure, allergic reactions etc are also not
a big stretch to the medical tricorders we see in the Star Trek
series. So is science fiction becoming science fact and are we
witnessing the slow but steady emergence of yesterday's future
on a daily basis?

Some weeks back the 4BC radio show host, Tony Johnstone, asked
listeners what might we most fear if we were suddenly visited by
large numbers of ETs.

One listener thought the fear might actually be more to do with
what the ETs looked like rather than their actual visitation.
Panelists were also asked what might be required as proof of ET
existence. My thoughts on this were that there is no
"definitive" proof for individuals but rather it becomes a
question of acceptance of evidence or denial of it.

Even if a UFO landed in the city many people would think it a
hoax, joke or advertising ploy, at least initially and possibly
for some time, unless it was accompanied by an announcement by
some recognised authority.

Even then many would remain highly skeptical. (flat earthers and
no-moon landers come to mind here)

This brings up the question of how we might handle ET contact as
a culture, one I have personally percolated over myself.
Scrounging on the net for answers I have found discussions on
this subject to be almost non-existent, causing me to speculate
this to be a taboo subject in a field where it should be hot
stuff! Why is this so? I'm not sure but could ufologists be
human after all????

The trends in discussion on the show are both interesting and
curious to observe, watching what people respond to (or not) is
quite fascinating.

Listen to the Paranormal Panel every Friday 9pm Qld
time on Radio 4BC (1116 on the AM dial) or via streaming audio at
http://www.4bc.com.au/sites/4bc/RunScript.asp?p=ASP\~Pg0.asp

UFO Encounter Journal
Issue # 218 includes the following -
NASA Air Brush Artist Tells All, The Zone of Silence,
Exceptional Human Experiences & Human Evolution,
a review of the recent Australian National UFO Conference,
Australian UFO Sightings and News.
For subscription information see membership below.

Free Sample
Be sure to view the updated free samples of UFO Encounter
with our compliments at uforq.asn.au/publications/publications.html

Public Meetings
Anyone who runs UFO meetings knows you have to work hard to make
them interesting. Today people expect professionalism, a high
level of informative and educational information as well as
delivering this in an interesting manner. Added to this,
meetings have their regular attendees as well as a regular
turnover of new comers so it's equally important to present a
wide range of information and perspectives that relate to
everyone no matter where they are at in their understanding.
Easy you say??? Not likely, but we give it our best shot and
below is a review of some of our meetings this year.

 April 2004
We were fortunate to have Chris White as guest speaker at
this meeting who was a local to the Sunsine Coast and
had investigated and photographed the Connondale crop
circles reported on the 28th March. These circles, estimated
to have appeared a day or two earlier, were the simple circle
types with 4 circles lining up in a straight line some 50 metres
from a watercourse.

On the night of the 28th March Chris's friend received a call
about the circles and within minutes he and his friend were on
their way to investigate. Armed with torches they wandered
around in the dark until they discovered a large circle behind
an embankment, then another. They found the first two circles
easily and immediately while they "felt a sense of awe and
respect" as they gazed at "their beauty and exquisite nature".

Chris took photos of all four circles, some of which can be
viewed at http://members.iinet.net.au/~bwratten/ccc.html and of
particular interest are the light anomalies that showed up on
the photos when they were developed. Chris reported that the
weaving of the different grasses created a ripple effect and
produced a 6 inch thick woven mat which would sink as he stood
upon it.

Also, each circle had grass flowing into it on the eastern side
creating an overhang effect, while the grass flowed out of the
circles on the western sides. The grass between the circles was
"all over the place" while the grass within the circles was
swirled clockwise with the smallest of the circles being twisted
tightly in comparison to the other three.

Although Bob Bruce from the sceptics association pronounced the
circles to have been formed by whirlwinds, it can easily be
observed from the photographs that there is a lack of tangential
build up to the circles that would be consistent to a whirlwind
forming. Instead we find a clear cut edge to each formation with
an abrupt change in the lay of the grass from horizontal to
vertical.

Wildlife in the area did not seem to be affected but some people
who entered the circles reported feeling nauseaus. Kate Dash,
who also accompanied Chris to the site, said on her third visit
she "couldn't wait to get out of there" as she felt unwell, yet
on her two previous visits she suffered no ill effects. Since
the crop circle story was picked up by the media, Kate, who is
now the telephone contact for further reports, has also received
reports of paranormal activities from the locals in the area.

People have come forward with stories of blue balls of light
coming out of the trees, strange warbling sounds in the area.
Another report was of an oval-shaped daytime shadow seen on the
roadway then turning off at an intersection to follow the
roadway before disappearing yet nothing was seen in the sky at
the time to cause the shadow. Since the knowledge of these
stories has been revealed local investigators have received
further paranormal reports which shall be presented at a future
meeting. Stay tuned for updates.

June 2004
At our June meeting we showed part of Mary Rodwell's new video
"Expressions of ET Contact - A Communication & Healing
Blueprint?" (see http://www.acern.com.au) which explores reports
of the development of healing abilities by close encounter
experiencers. This included Adrian Dvir and others. Further into
the video Mary reads a letter by a British artist who believes
he has had experiences with ETs and sketches incredible images
of ETs from his memory of these events. Mary's video touched on
a question that continually plagues my mind, why do a certain
percentage of people who report close
encounters develop an interest in healing?

Many of the close encounter experiencers I have interviewed
over the past 16 years have also developed an interest in
healing, so what on earth is going on here?

August 2004
In August Paul Bolton gave a talk on the nature of Time. He
presented the Toroid of Time spoken of by Einstein, Tesla, Von
Neumann and others. These scientists based their mathmatics on
the toroid, a donut-shaped, fixed loop spiral which shows that
time, as we know and live it, actually has a starting point and
an ending point.

They used this fact and the associated maths to alter the time
reference in a specific area, by manipulating the electrostatic,
magnetic and gravitic fields around a  battleship, (among others
things), to make it optically and radar invisible in the
Philadelphia Experiment  12/08/1943.

This experiment created a tear in the fabric of time. The
problems that this experiment created necessitated a recovery
mission, in time,  which was initiated as part of the Montalk
Project on the 12/08/1983 by Von Neumann, who by the way
invented the computer.

The 40 year time leap was a mere four life changing hours for
crew Duncan and Edward Cameron and members of the volunteer
crew, many of whom were never the same. The story was a
fantastic journey of mind and time stretching proportions.

The reference material for this presentation came from these
books, T.B. Pawlicki's " How To Explore The Higher Dimensions of
Space and Time." the Russian P.D. Ouspensky " Tertium Organum".
The video series in the UFORQ library The Philadelphia
Experiment, The Montalk Project. Various Einstein quotes
including the classic, " The past the present and the future are
not linear no matter how persistent the illusion appears to be."
Most of us possibly consider this illusion quite persistent and
at times frustratingly convincing.

At this meeting we also showed some of the latest crop
formations from the UK and Holland as well as retracing our
steps through time (how appropriate) back to 1990 where this
phenomena was just starting to evolve from simple circles and
made its way through glyphs to the deeply meaningful and
esoteric designs that can show up today. Are crop circles made
by ETs or have we been merely talking to ourselves all along?

Interestingly Colin Andrews points out on his web site that the
crystalline changes that appear in the affected crops only show
up in the simple circles. Also, the only shapes that show up
consistently and globally are the simple circles. So who's
talking to who, if at all?

My favourite memory from our meetings this year was when I
thought it might be a good idea to explore the idea of
levitation since ETs have been reported to levitate by
witnesses. Well good old synchronicity jumped in and the next
day a TV show about David Blaine, the US street magician,
provided me with a video clip of him demonstrating his
levitation trick. He simply walked up to people in the street
and told them to watch, then began to lift up and levitate right
in front of their eyes. It was extremely interesting to watch
the people on TV and their reaction to him, one woman becoming
hysterical, another just swallowed up by awe, and many others
just running away, even a couple of tough football players.

How very curious I thought, but even more fascinating to me was
the response by the audience at our UFO meeting. Some saw
Blaine's levitation as a trick and offered ideas as anti-gravity
plates under his shoes, invisible cables around his waist,
others offered that spiritually advanced people have been
reported as developing special abilities and maybe Blaine was
one of them, while others just sat on the fence to wait and see.
Later I wondered to myself if this might be at all reflective of
our response to ETs landing on Earth.


Membership to UFO Research Qld
Membership to UFORQ entitles you to a subscription to
our bi-monthly journal UFO Encounter; a discount entry fee
to our monthly public meetings, conferences & seminars;
access to our vast lending library complete with books, local
and international exchange publications and oodles of videos.
Membership details at uforq.asn.au/about/memberpage.html


Contact details :
Find us on the web at www.uforq.asn.au
Email info.nul








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                               New Orb Images

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:28:36 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:35:10 -0400
Subject: New Orb Images


Hi Listers,

Some people more then others seem to have the ability to
photograph Orbs in a variety of locations and situations. One
gentleman and his female friend in the UK are two people that
have found that they are able to photograph some unusual
phenomena inside and outside their homes. This page is dedicated
to just some of the unusual photos they have taken over the last
two years.

http://theozfactor.nucleardays.com/spirit13.htm

Once it was realised that the Orbs were regularly showing up on
their photos, it developed into a real interest. The variety,
size and number of Orbs in each photo varies. The phenomena does
not just include Orbs, but mists and moving Orbs that leave
motion trails indicating movement during the shutter speed of
the camera. This feature alone demonstrates that the Orbs are
not lens reflections, but real objects in motion at some
distance from the camera.


Enjoy,

Barry Taylor







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                   BBC - Bush & Kerry Battle Over Science

From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:54:19 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:47:08 -0400
Subject: BBC - Bush & Kerry Battle Over Science


Bush and Kerry battle over science
The US presidential candidates address major scientific
questions put to them by the journal Nature.

Full story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/-/1/hi/sci/tech/3660276.stm

15 Sept 04 BBC
Analysis
By Paul Reynolds
BBC News Online world affairs correspondent

The leading international science journal Nature has focussed
the US presidential election campaign on science by asking both
President George Bush and Senator John Kerry for their views on
the major issues.

Both candidates were given 15 questions and asked to confine
their answers to a total of 1,500 words. Mr Bush had to be
edited as he overran; Mr Kerry kept within the limit.

<snip>

The major questions:

Stem-cell research
Climate change
New nuclear weapons
Missile defence
Manned space exploration
GM crops
US lifestyles

<snip>

MISSILE DEFENCE

This is a priority for President Bush who says that "Our policy
is to develop and deploy, at the earliest possible date,
ballistic missile defences drawing on the best technologies
available."

Mr Kerry favours research but "I am not for rapid deployment of
missile defence. We should not waste money on deployment at this
stage." He therefore does not rule it out but is cautious about
its effectiveness.


MANNED SPACE EXPLORATION

Mr Bush appears to have back-pedalled from his "man on Mars"
ambition but he still wants man to go back to the Moon. "America
will return to the Moon as early as 2015 and no later than 2020
and use it as a foundation for human missions beyond the Moon."
He does not mention Mars.

Mr Kerry is sceptical. "There is little to be gained from a
space initiative that throws out lofty goals, but fails to
support these goals with realistic funding." However, he and
John Edwards, he says, will increase funding for a continuation
of space exploration.

<snip>







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              Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:25:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:53:24 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Allan


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:37:01 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:14:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>We have seen here that Brad Sparks - a researcher that Jerry
>thinks highly of for his analysis of the RB-47 Radar-Visual case
>- does not rate Chiles-Whitted very highly, nor, after two
>changes of mind, did Allen Hynek. I don't think either of these
>gentlemen were claiming that the two pilots were lying, but they
>do cast serious doubt on their interpretation of what was
>undoubtedly a "genuine real-world event".

>I know that Jerry thinks highly of James McDonald's views on
>this case, but on reading his submission to the 1968 US House
>Committee Symposium on UFOs, I was amazed to find that he
>interviewed the two pilots in 1968, *twenty years* after the
>event. In these circumstances I cannot regard this interview as
>having anything other than anecdotal value.


A brief submission:

A good account and discussion of the Chiles-Whitted case is in
the Condon Report p.567-582, in Process of Perception,
Conception & Reporting, by William K. Hartmann. Worth reading.

Don't forget that the one passenger witness did not describe the
UFO in the same detail as did the pilots.

Hartmann fully convinced me that the C-W case was not a
spaceship, but I agree that ETHers will never accept the answer
given, especially if they regard the whole Condon Report as a
whitewash.

However, in the Battelle Study (Blue Book report 14) it is
listed as one of the 12 "good unknowns". But Battelle did no
investigation whatever.


CDA








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                  Fireball Crashes Behind Argentine Glacier

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:26:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:12:48 -0400
Subject: Fireball Crashes Behind Argentine Glacier



INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
September 16, 2004

Source: El Sureno

http://www.surenio.com.ar/index.php?s=ARligwdw$$diarios/veo$WWW514sykpc3vct

Date: September 15, 2004

Witnesses Claim Seeing Fireball Crash Behind The Martial Glacier

***In Ushuaia***

This occurred last night and could be seen from various parts of
the city. A witness who was able to see the phenomenon is a
scientist with CONICET. The possibility of a flare was dismissed
due to its size. Numerous phone calls were made to Civil
Defense.

USHUAIA - Several residents of the city of Ushuaia saw a
fireball fall from the sky last night after 20:00 hrs.,
resulting in an incessant number of phone calls to  emergency
services centers.

One of these witnesses happneed to be Dr. Rogelio Acevedo, a
geologist who is a scientific researchers with CONICET, whom at
the time was taking his son to School No. 13 and saw the
"bolide" at the level of the Martial Glacier but behind it.

The scientist said that it was a mass of white, green and yellow
hues, although this is the least important aspect. Regarding the
possibility that it could be a flare, he dismissed it on account
of its size.

But this man, an expert in the field, was not the only witness
to the space phenomenon. Although many people contacted the
Municipal Civil Defense to ask questions, they said the colors
were of different shades. Again, not a significant
consideration.

A resident of the outskirts of Ushuaia maintained that he can
determine the area where this object fell, since he has cattle
in the area. The man claimed having heard an explosion after
seeing this object fall. The possibility that it could have been
a meteorite has not been dismissed.

The possibility of a rescue group visiting the site to ascertain
the nature of the object was being discussed last night.



Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales IHU
Special thanks to Guillermo Gimenez - Planeta UFO








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                          Secrecy News -- 09/17/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:47:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:21:50 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 09/17/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 82
September 17, 2004


**      CIA REJECTS DISCLOSURE OF HISTORICAL BUDGET DATA
**      SECRECY IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION
**      HOMEFRONT CONFIDENTIAL
**      DOD: A FRAMEWORK FOR STRATEGIC THINKING
**      RED LESSONS LEARNED (DSB)
**      DEFENDING AGAINST CLANDESTINE NUCLEAR ATTACK (DSB)
**      NONSTRATEGIC NUCLEAR WEAPONS (CRS)


CIA REJECTS DISCLOSURE OF HISTORICAL BUDGET DATA

Acting Director of Central Intelligence John E. McLaughlin told
a federal court this week that releasing the amounts of
historical CIA budgets from 1947 through 1970 would compromise
intelligence methods.

Mr. McLaughlin's statement was presented in opposition to a
Freedom of Information Act lawsuit brought by the Federation of
American Scientists.

"I have carefully considered the ramifications of releasing the
total CIA budgets for fiscal years 1947-70 and a few budget
numbers from other agencies for fiscal year 1947," he said in a
sworn declaration.

"I have concluded that publicly disclosing the intelligence
budget information that plaintiff seeks would tend to reveal
intelligence methods that, in the interest of maintaining an
effective intelligence service, ought not be publicly revealed,"
he wrote.

Acting DCI McLaughlin's insistence on preserving the secrecy of
even half-century old budget figures contrasts with the
recommendation of the 9/11 Commission that current and future
intelligence agency budgets "should no longer be kept secret."

DCI McLaughlin's September 14 declaration is posted here (1.25
MB PDF file):

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/mclaughlin.pdf

In accordance with Attorney General Ashcroft's FOIA policy, the
CIA's position on budget secrecy is being vigorously defended by
the Department of Justice Office of Information and Privacy. See
the defendant's motion for summary judgment here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/cia091504.pdf

A reply from FAS is due on September 29.

"We must do something about the problem of overclassification,"
said Secretary of State Colin Powell at a hearing of the Senate
Governmental Affairs Committee on September 13. "Today, the
intelligence community routinely classifies information at
higher levels and makes access more difficult than was the case
even at the height of the Cold War."


SECRECY IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION

The Bush Administration "has repeatedly rewritten laws and
changed practices to reduce public and congressional scrutiny of
its activities," said Rep. Henry Waxman, announcing the release
of a major new congressional report on Bush Administration
secrecy policy.

"The cumulative effect is an unprecedented assault on the laws
that make our government open and accountable," he said.

The new report, issued by the House Government Reform Committee
minority, provides an exhaustive critique of executive branch
secrecy, from various well-known issues such as the secrecy
surrounding the Vice President's Energy Task Force to numerous
less-known measures to block congressional access to agency
records.

The full text of the September 14 investigative report on
"Secrecy in the Bush Administration" is posted here:

http://democrats.reform.house.gov/features/secrecy_report/index.asp


HOMEFRONT CONFIDENTIAL

Some of the same barriers blocking public access to government
information are described from another point of view in a newly
revised study from the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the
Press.

"We live in a nation built on the concept of balance," writes
RCFP director Lucy A. Dalglish. "When the government, perhaps
with the best of intentions, goes too far in its efforts to
shield information from the public, it is up to the public and
the media to push back. Through a vibrant, information-based
election process and through an independent judiciary, we as a
society will come to a balance that hopefully will protect our
liberties for generations to come."

See "Homefront Confidential: How the War on Terrorism Affects
Access to Information and the Public's Right to Know," fifth
edition, September 2004:

http://www.rcfp.org/homefrontconfidential/


DOD: A FRAMEWORK FOR STRATEGIC THINKING

A Pentagon briefing for Defense Secretary Rumsfeld last month
laid out the conceptual underpinning for a far-reaching
transformation of the U.S. military intended to make it
responsive to a broader range of challenges, the Washington Post
reported two weeks ago.

The briefing document that was presented to Secretary Rumsfeld
has been circulating on the internet (the Washington Post
commendably posted a copy). But the document was "locked" by the
author in such a way as to prevent copying and printing.

Now an "unlocked" version is available, thanks to a Secrecy News
correspondent.

"I had to hack the password for the PDF," wrote M. "Now you can
print [it]."

See the printable version of "A Conceptual Framework for
Strategic Thinking," For Official Use Only, 19 August 2004,
here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/framework.pdf

See also "Shift From Traditional War Seen at Pentagon" by Thomas
E. Ricks, Washington Post, September 3, 2004:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57491-
2004Sep2.html


RED LESSONS LEARNED (DSB)

The Defense Science Board has been asked to undertake a study of
how U.S. adversaries gather information about U.S. military
capabilities, how they exploit such information, and what can be
done about it.

"Each U.S. Military engagement provides ample opportunity for an
adversary to observe U.S. capabilities and respond to them,"
according to the Terms of Reference for the new study. "The
opportunity is enhanced, today, by the documentation provided by
embedded and otherwise intrusive news media."

A DSB task force will "identify the channels through which
adversaries learn about U.S. capabilities," and will address the
question: "Are there any methods that can be used to disrupt,
manipulate or control these channels?"

The new project was first reported by Dan Dupont in Inside the
Pentagon, September 16, 2004.

A copy of the DSB Terms of Reference on "Red Lessons Learned,"
August 30, 2004, is available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/dsb/red-tor.pdf


DEFENDING AGAINST CLANDESTINE NUCLEAR ATTACK (DSB)

A recently completed Defense Science Board study calls for a new
defense initiative to confront the threat of clandestine nuclear
attack.

"The [DSB] Task Force addresses the threat of nuclear or
radiological attack, by anyone for any purpose in any scenario,
against the United States or U.S. military operations, delivered
by any means other than missiles or aircraft. In effect, this
means hidden/smuggled nuclear weapons, devices, or materials,"
according to the cover memo from DSB Chairman William Schneider
Jr.

"The Task Force finds that this threat is serious enough, and
that there are sufficient indications that effective means of
preventing successful attack might be developed over the long
term, to warrant starting a DoD effort to develop comprehensive
capabilities in DoD's areas of responsibility."

Defense against such attacks "should warrant national and DoD
attention that is as serious as that devoted to missile
defense," the DSB said.

A copy of the Report of the Defense Science Board Task Force on
Preventing and Defending Against Clandestine Nuclear Attack,
dated June 2004, is now available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/dsb/attack.pdf


NONSTRATEGIC NUCLEAR WEAPONS (CRS)

The issues raised by the continued deployment of thousands of
nonstrategic nuclear weapons by the United States and Russia are
the subject of a new report from the Congressional Research
Service.

It is CRS policy to deny direct public access to such reports.
But a copy of "Nonstrategic Nuclear Weapons," September 9, 2004,
may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/crs/RL32572.pdf


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
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Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
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_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691








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   Sep > Sep 17

                          Re: New Orb Images - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:35:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:07:00 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - King


>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:28:36 +1000
>Subject: New Orb Images

<snip>

>Once it was realised that the Orbs were regularly showing up on
>their photos, it developed into a real interest. The variety,
>size and number of Orbs in each photo varies. The phenomena does
>not just include Orbs, but mists and moving Orbs that leave
>motion trails indicating movement during the shutter speed of
>the camera. This feature alone demonstrates that the Orbs are
>not lens reflections, but real objects in motion at some
>distance from the camera.


Barry,

With All Due Levity
If these folks want to save a lot of film by getting an "orb" in
every shot, just tell them to shuffle around on the carpet for a
few seconds before taking photos. This seems to "awaken" the
"staubengeists" and gets them into a photogenic mood.

Also, using really old film and a camera with a loose door and a
dirty lens will heavily increase your success rate. A drooping
plastic strap likewise draws out some very odd characters from
time to time. A smoker in the room is a definite plus. Also you
should always shoot with a flash. Staubengeists seem to like
these things.

More Sincerely
What I would really like to see is a pair of photos taken at the
same time and place, both showing the same orb. Or a photo taken
with high-speed film and without a flash. Staubengeists seem to
prefer flash cameras, or at least a bright light at the
photographer's back. You might even say they depend on it.

Perhaps my time working in a commercial photo lab, and my years
of taking photographs have made me cynical, but I see nothing on
the referenced site which appears to be anything more than what
most would call a bad photo...marred by dust, smoke, etc. They
are all easily reproducible, and predictably irreproducible
under non- ideal conditions.

Is any serious student of UFO-related anomalies actually
studying the subject of orbs? From any kind of scientific
perspective? The "enhancement" images on the site do not
qualify, IMHO. Like the previously noted "Hungarian UFO",
enhancing distortion or noise simply makes the noise louder.
Not at all revelatory, but wholly obfuscatory.


Regards,

Kyle









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   Sep > Sep 17

              Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:10:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:10:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Rudiak


>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul, "- UFO UpDates
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:42:59 -0700
>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:12:57 -0700
>>Subject: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>Mexican Air Force FLIR's video lights are not UFOs they are
>>oil well gas flames!

>>http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/REFERENCE_DATA.html

>>My own video recording showing I was right.

>>http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/CANTARELL_SEP_2004/index.ht
ml

>The FLIR video of March 5th has been shown to a rather wide
>audience by now. E.g., Maussan showed it at the Bay Area UFO
>Expo. For these viewers as well as the airplane's crew, it is
>indisputable that the objects could not have been well-gas
>flames.

>During one section of the video, the most notable objects were
>in a doubled triplet formation, pacing the airplane off the
port
>side, and are seen to have passed _in_front of_ a nearby cloud
>top, then pass _behind_* an even closer cloud-top fragment,
>then emerge.

>Thus, it seems silly to press the case for a well-gas-flame
>explanation, in which flames show up in the visible, not just
>the infrared, to anyone who has viewed the March 5th video.

Jim and List,

This whole question of how gas-flames from 80 miles distance
could show up so strongly on the FLIR equipment while remaining
invisible to the naked eye sure has me puzzled

Infrared is much more strongly absorbed by the atmosphere than
visible light.

While probably 99% of the radiation emitted by a gas flame would
be in the infrared (just like a candle flame), this would be
compensated for by strong infrared absorption, particularly by
water vapor.

This was a very humid environment, looking out over jungle and
ocean in the direction of the oil wells.

I would be very surprised if any infrared from the oil well
flames made it through all that atmosphere, not to mention
clouds, which should be extremely strong absorbers of infrared.

Yet not only do the lights show up strongly on the FLIR viewer,
they appear undiminished in brightness in front of intervening
clouds.

Amazing!

On the other hand, the plots showing the lights generally to be
in the same direction as the oil wells does give me pause. There
are still a whole bunch of loose ends to this case.


David Rudiak








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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:47:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:13:28 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Rudiak


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:48:16 +0200
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:10:28 EDT
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:05:45 +0200
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

><snip>

>I am interested in the search of the truth, whatever it turns
>out to be, and I am sure I'm not alone. Have you passed your
>findings to people like David Rudiak, Bob Durant, Mark
>Rodeghier, Bruce Maccabee, Wendy Connors?

>I don't believe that all the researchers would refuse to listen,
>if you have found something very important on Roswell.

>Well, I suppose this is going to be another "Roswell mystery". I
>am sorry that you don't want to say more.

>BTW, last year, I showed thatjust by carefully reading the
>USAF Roswell Report, it is pretty obvious that Mogul 4 never
>took off. I don't recall much interest about this on the List,
>with the exception of David Rudiak. I don't think you said
>one word about it.

>The lack of response may be frustrating, and I understand
>your irritation.

It's not that I don't want to hear what Brad has to say. It's
that he won't tell me anything, even though I've asked in
private email. All he tells me is that I'm blinded to the truth
by pro-ET bias, I and others have it all wrong, drops an
occasional hint as to what he has, but never spells it out.

I find this enormously frustrating. It's like the guy at the
poker table saying he's got everybody beat with a royal flush,
but refuses to show his hand. Nobody is going to pay up until
they see what he's got. This has nothing to do with biases or
agendas.

I'm sure Brad could write a 2 or 3 paragraph synopsis of what
his theory is and what evidence he has to back it. Then there
would be something concrete to discuss. I have no problems if
he doesn't want to carry on a public discussion of it. I just
want to know what he has.

At the top of my list of things any Roswell theory should
properly explain is the Brazel debris field and the many
eyewitness accounts, both military and civilian, of highly
anomalous debris. I've always thought this was central to the
ET theory of Roswell. How could a non-ET event generate such
debris? After Brad and I shredded Charles Moore's fraudulent
Mogul #4 trajectory calculation, I doubt if Brad thinks the
debris field was created by a Mogul balloon. So what created
it?

For a compendium of eyewitness accounts about the debris:

www.roswellproof.com/debris_main.html

For modern materials that begin to mimic the witness debris
descriptions:

www.roswellproof.com/debris9_nanotech.html


David Rudiak








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   Sep > Sep 17

                         Re: New Orb Images - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:04:58 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:27:21 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Shell


>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:28:36 +1000
>Subject: New Orb Images

>Some people more then others seem to have the ability to
>photograph Orbs in a variety of locations and situations. One
>gentleman and his female friend in the UK are two people that
>have found that they are able to photograph some unusual
>phenomena inside and outside their homes. This page is dedicated
>to just some of the unusual photos they have taken over the last
>two years.

>http://theozfactor.nucleardays.com/spirit13.htm

Putting on my skepti-bunker hat for a moment. All they look like
to me is dust or water particles blurred out of focus.

I would be a lot more convinced if these people could get a 3-D
camera or two identical and synchronized cameras and get a
stereo pair showing these "orbs". Then we might be able to get a
decent approximation of distance so we could tell if it's dust
out of focus or some larger structured phenomenon.


Thanks.









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   Sep > Sep 17

                 Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting [was New Mexico

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:09:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:30:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting [was New Mexico


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:25:11 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:37:01 +0100
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:14:25 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>I know that Jerry thinks highly of James McDonald's views on
>>this case, but on reading his submission to the 1968 US House
>>Committee Symposium on UFOs, I was amazed to find that he
>>interviewed the two pilots in 1968, *twenty years* after the
>>event. In these circumstances I cannot regard this interview as
>>having anything other than anecdotal value.


>A brief submission:

>A good account and discussion of the Chiles-Whitted case is in
>the Condon Report p.567-582, in Process of Perception,
>Conception & Reporting, by William K. Hartmann. Worth reading.

>Don't forget that the one passenger witness did not describe the
>UFO in the same detail as did the pilots.

Uh huh. Know why? Because his sighting was briefer and he was
barely awake; therefore, as any sensible person would conclude,
that testimony is of marginal value.

Oh, excuse me, I forgot: it _is_ highly valuable and, moreover,
precisely accurate because it does not "describe the UFO in the
same detail as did the pilots" and therefore can be incorporated
into meteor theory. See, folks, in the pelicanist world the
testimony of two alert, experienced airline pilots can be
discarded in favor of that of a drowsy lay passenger if it
serves the purpose.

We all know what pelicanists would make of the testimony of a
half-awake individual who claimed an exotic sighting. In fact,
no sensible ufologist (excuse me, "ETHer") would make much of
it, either.

As pelicanists won't tell you, there was a fully conscious,
knowledgeable observer who, an hour before, witnessed what may
well have been the same object. It didn't look like a meteor. As
I write in my book, "On August 10 [1948] the officer in charge
of the Sixth District Office of Special Investigations ...
interviewed Walter Massey, a ground-maintenance crewman
stationed at Robins Air Force Base in Georgia. Massey related
that two hours prior to the Chiles-Whitted sighting [which
occurred just southwest of Montgomery, Alabama, at 5000 feet] he
was 'standing fire guard on a C-47' ... and facing north when he
spotted something coming from that direction. At first it looked
like a 'stream of fire,' but when it passed directly overhead on
a straight, level course, he could make out the details. It
'appeared to be a cylindrical-shaped object with a long stream
of fire coming out of the tail end. I am sure it [was] not a jet
since I have observed P-84s in flight at night on two
occasions.' He thought it was the size of a B-29 or 'a little
larger in circumference It was too large for a jet. It seemed to
be a dark color and constructed of an unknown metallic type [of]
material.'

"He estimated that it was at 3000 feet but acknowledged that was
a guess. Asked if he saw windows, he pointed out, 'It would be
hard to tell if there were windows and a divided deck could not
be recognized from the ground.' The object reminded him of a
German V-2 rocket that he and a fellow soldier had observed in
Europe during the Battle of the Bulge, except that the one over
Georgia was bigger and faster."

In the context of CW, Sign investigator Capt. Robert R. Sneider
took note of four separate incidents, "one having occurred on 24
July 1948 and the others on 26 July 1948. A preponderance of the
evidence is available to establish that in almost all cases an
unidentified object was seen within stated times and dates over
an extended area, pursuing a general Southerly course.
Descriptions as to size, shape, color and movements are fairly
consistent."


>Hartmann fully convinced me that the C-W case was not a
>spaceship, but I agree that ETHers will never accept the answer
>given, especially if they regard the whole Condon Report as a
>whitewash.

Now, there's a shocker. Seriously, folks, it doesn't take much
for the likes of Christopher Allan to be "fully convinced" of
what they already are predisposed to believe, and it helps to
have zero tolerance for ambiguity, too. For the rest of us:

The problems with the Condon report are not in the text, which
is virtually a brief for UFOs as puzzling anomalies, but in the
notoriously misleading, dismissive introduction. What
Christopher has written above is simplistic and just plain
wrong. If he wants to prove that the striking pro-UFO evidence
in the text is consistent with the negative introduction (which
the UFOphobic Ed Condon wrote to serve himself), he has his work
cut out for him. In any event:

In my book Strange Skies (Citadel, 2003) I discuss sightings of
UFOs - in daylight and under excellent viewing conditions --
 identical or markedly similar to the one Chiles and Whitted
observed (see pp. 81-87). Pelicanists, of course, pretend that
those don't exist, only the meteor sightings that Condon
investigator (and UFO-hostile astronomer) William K. Hartmann
discusses, neglecting to point out that in this case (February
9, 1913) the spectacular meteors were observed from Saskatchewan
to the New Jersey coast. On the other hand, the CW "meteor" --
 though a spectacular one - was weirdly confined to three
observers over a small area of air space over Alabama.

Though he lazily declares it, Hartmann doesn't provide any
documentation that the extraordinary observation he cites is
indeed meteoric. All we know is that of the many thousands of
witnesses, one - let me repeat, one - claimed to have seen
what "resembled a large aeroplane or dirigible, with two tiers
of lights strung along the sides." If one were so inclined, one
could argue - and not have to worry that anybody can
conclusively prove otherwise - that this is exactly what the
witness saw. After all, other witnesses have seen the same when
no meteor shower, or meteor at all, was in evidence. Perhaps the
witness did see a UFO, while the meteor shower that happened to
be going on around him at the same time was simply coincidental.
There's no reason to believe that UFOs can't appear in the midst
of meteor showers; after all, as decades of sighting reports
attest, they can show up pretty much whenever and wherever they
want to.

Obviously, I am not arguing this is necessarily the case, though
not because I know it _can't_ be true. All I am certain of is
that _we just don't know_. All we can say is that Hartmann takes
a convenient quote out of any discernible context and runs with
it, "fully convincing" the likes of Christopher, whose skeptical
facilities evaporate whenever he comes upon something that makes
him feel warm and fuzzy.

Not content with this simple and uncertainly relevant anecdote,
Hartmann goes on, in the familiar pelicanist manner, to relate
his own after-dinner story, in this instance about his own
sighting of something he allegedly saw from an airliner but
couldn't immediately identify, until later he realized it was
another airliner.

As we all know, pelicanists hate anecdotes, except, of course,
the anecdotes that serve them obediently. Hartmann uses his
little yarn to advance the underwhelmingly original observation
that witnesses are sometimes mistaken; therefore, the CW case
closed. Kids, in case you've been wondering, that's the
scientific investigation of unidentified flying objects.

>However, in the Battelle Study (Blue Book report 14) it is
>listed as one of the 12 "good unknowns". But Battelle did no
>investigation whatever.

Your point being? Battelle was tasked, as it always is whatever
the subject, to conduct analyses, not investigations. I could
point out that Christopher Allan has done "no investigation
whatever" of the CW sighting. Neither, by the way, did his
friend Hartmann, who cites as his sources NICAP and Menzel and
Boyd's debunking book (see Condon Report, Bantam edition, p.
581), not C&W themselves. In common with all other meteor
believers, Hartmann couldn't be bothered to interview Chiles and
Whitted, both still alive in the 1960s when Condon's committee
was active. As I have already remarked, those who actually
_talked_ with the two pilots agreed that they must have seen
something fantastic; it's only those who didn't who cling to the
meteor speculation.

In point of fact, as I write in my book, "it is impossible to
prove that Chiles and Whitted did _not_ see a meteor." It's also
impossible to prove that

(a) they did not make up the story out of whole cloth;

(b) they did not fall asleep and dream it;

(c) they did not see a stationary astronomical body and
hallucinate movement and structure;

(d) they did not observe an advanced, still-secret experimental
aircraft of earthly - presumably American, possibly Soviet,
maybe even Atlantean - origin and perhaps embellish or imagine
some details; or

(d) they were not drunk or under the influence of drugs at the
time.

It follows, of course, that all witnesses who before, then, and
since have reported comparable UFOs are suffering from one or
more of the above- stated afflictions.

In retrospect, the CW sighting's evidential value has diminished
because other, better cases have replaced it. You can't
conclusively disprove the meteor theory or any of the other ones
cited above (or for that matter any other one you want to make
up), any more than you can prove them. All we can do is make our
judgments on whatever testimonial evidence is available to us,
and beyond that on what Michael Swords has called our "vision of
the possible." We can also compare it to other sightings of
similar objects seen in contexts where meteors need not apply.
Christopher is only pointing out the obvious (though apparently
under the impression he is offering some sort of devastating
insight) when he notes that even by the early 1950s other,
better, more interesting unknowns were there to puzzle
investigators and analysts.

This whole discussion began when one of the Johns (I no longer
recall which) declared as if it were an established fact that
the CW sighting had been conclusively explained as a meteor. As
I have shown, that is far from the case. It is no more than a
hypothesis which at this late date is essentially unfalsifiable
-- which is no mere happenstance; it's exactly how pelicanists
like it. As Brad Sparks has cogently remarked, we shouldn't even
be discussing this case. Nothing (if ever it could) can be
established with anything close to certainty. The sanest course
surely is to acknowledge as much - God, it seems obvious enough
-- and move on.

In the meantime, CW's sighting recedes ever deeper into history,
eclipsed by many other reports which more compellingly make the
case for anomalous UFOs. The case for UFOs neither stands nor
falls on the CW incident, whose interest to 21st-Century ufology
is more historical than evidential. At least, however, we can do
it the courtesy, when the subject comes up, of thinking clearly
about it and not pretending to certainties that probably will
forever elude us.


Jerry Clark










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   Sep > Sep 17

               Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:46:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:33:19 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King


>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:09:00 +1000
>Subject: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)

>UFO News 17th September 2004 (Australia)

>A report on the activities of UFO Research Queensland Inc.
>Brisbane, Australia. www.uforq.asn.au

<snip>

>August 2004
>In August Paul Bolton gave a talk on the nature of Time. He
>presented the Toroid of Time spoken of by Einstein, Tesla, Von
>Neumann and others. These scientists based their mathmatics on
>the toroid, a donut-shaped, fixed loop spiral which shows that
>time, as we know and live it, actually has a starting point and
>an ending point.

<snip>

A toroidal time model does not show that time has a starting
point and an end point. The model suggests that time has no
starting or ending point... in other words, it is not linear.
This lack of linearity is what prompted Einstein to make the
statement you later quote.

>They used this fact and the associated maths to alter the time
>reference in a specific area, by manipulating the electrostatic,
>magnetic and gravitic fields around a  battleship, (among others
>things), to make it optically and radar invisible in the
>Philadelphia Experiment  12/08/1943.
>This experiment created a tear in the fabric of time. The
>problems that this experiment created necessitated a recovery
>mission, in time,  which was initiated as part of the Montalk
>Project on the 12/08/1983 by Von Neumann, who by the way
>invented the computer.

<snip>

Not to in any way minimize von Neumann's contributions to
mathematics and computer science, but he did not invent the
computer. He proposed the use of stored programs in computers,
and proposed a design concept for such a machine. He did not
invent the computer.

Computers were in existence since at least the time of Babbage's
"mathematics engine", and even von Neumann himself worked with
early computers. This would not have been possible if he had yet
to invent them. Well, not unless he went through a time-dilating
toroidal temporal singularity, invented the computer, and then
returned to his present to work on them. This I doubt. At least
he never published any claim that such was the case.

Also, the project noted in this post was the Montauk Project,
not Montalk...perhaps a simple repeated typo.

Sounds like an interesting conference, at any rate. The
Philadelphia Experiment ranks high on my list of strange stories
for one reason... a lone weirdo was able to single-handedly
create a controversial story which was purchased in its entirety
by many in the UFO community.

While research on mine invisibility and radar cloaking were of
much interest to the military...and still are...this does not
lend any credence at all to Allen's ravings. The Philadelphia
Experiment as a topic for Lists such as this was invented from
whole cloth by an eccentric, and the fact that it is still
discussed as some sort of anomalous time-shift with horrible
consequences is utterly indicative of the propensity of some to
embrace wild theories simply because they are wild.

Of course this is all my opinion...I could be wrong.


Regards,

Kyle







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   Sep > Sep 18

             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:20:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 10:42:23 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Kaeser


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:25:11 +0100
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell
>A brief submission:

>A good account and discussion of the Chiles-Whitted case is in
>the Condon Report p.567-582, in Process of Perception,
>Conception & Reporting, by William K. Hartmann. Worth reading.

>Don't forget that the one passenger witness did not describe the
>UFO in the same detail as did the pilots.

>Hartmann fully convinced me that the C-W case was not a
>spaceship, but I agree that ETHers will never accept the answer
>given, especially if they regard the whole Condon Report as a
>whitewash.

>However, in the Battelle Study (Blue Book report 14) it is
>listed as one of the 12 "good unknowns". But Battelle did no
>investigation whatever.

Actually, a number of UFO researchers like to use the validity
of the Condon Report as a test to see if someone is really
paying attention or whether they simply want a crutch to hang
their beliefs on. But we would probably disagree on how it's
being applied.

However, I would suggest that it would be better to back and
read the actual Condon Report, as opposed to one person's
interpretation, unless you want a limited perspective. It's
pretty clear that the conclusion of the Condon Report was not
fully supported by the documentation (as limited and targetted
as it could be) within the actual full Report. Others far more
knowledgeable than I have written about the flaws of the Condon
Report, and I'll refer to articles if there's interest.  One of
the primary flaws seems to have been the fact that the Report's
conclusions were solidified by Condon before the actual evidence
was gathered and presented. He was then able to frame the type
of evidence that he would allow, so that his conclusions could
be supported. This is the same problem that I find with many of
the devoted believers on both sides of this debate.

This thread seems to be more of a philosophy of science
discussion, rather than a discussion of the evidence, but if
eveyone's having fun... what the heck.


Steve









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   Sep > Sep 18

              Re: HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings

From: Brian Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:27:41 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 10:53:27 -0400
Subject: Re: HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings


HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings

Newsletter Release: September 17 , 2004


Chicoutimi, Quebec White Object

Date: December 24, 1978 or 1979
Time: Late evening ?

In the mid 70's in Chicoutimi, Qc, Canada. It was Dec 24 (not
sure of the year), a white object that filled about half the sky
flew by in about 1 second (real fast). A few seconds later,
someone in the street mentioned that it was a comet. This object
was obviously very close and very large. I don't know if it was
a UFO but wanted to share it with you.

Additional Information:

It was about 10 miles from the Canadian Air Force Base of
Bagotville (Fighter Squadron). Don't know what shape it was as
it filled most of the sky and went by real fast. It was white
and directly above. It had to be very large. There was light
snow and it was late night. 1978 or 1979.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

------------------------

Fort Collins Colorado Round Ball Of Light.

Date: May 14, 2004
Time: 5:00 - 6:00 p.m.

Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Round ball of light.

Full Description of event/sighting: I was looking at clouds and
enjoying the day when I saw a small light in the sky. It was
motionless as clouds were passing by. I watched for about 5
minutes to see if it was going to move. It did not so I hurried
inside to get my camera. I got back outside and filmed the
object ( digital video camera) for about 2 minutes but I'm not
very steady. I went inside very quickly to get tripod but when I
got outside the object was gone! Nothing. That's why I know it
was a UFO. Sun was in the western sky and had about 2 hours
before sunset. I'm an avid skywatcher so I take confidence in
knowing what's in the sky. This was not a star, plane, bird or
whatever else.

Anyways, best wishes and I could send a video if you wish.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

--------------------------

Phoenix, Arizona Silver Disc

Hey Brian! How are you?

I recorded this object on July 31st, 2004 during the day and I
found it to be very interesting. I must have forgot to send it
to you for some reason but here it is.

I remember on this day it was partly cloudy, 109 degrees, and no
winds. I was in downtown Phoenix on the roof of my parking
garage recording another object when this metallic looking disc-
like object came from the West heading Southeast very quickly.

At first I thought it was a bird because it was tumbling along
but once I saw light reflect off of it I knew it was something
other than a plane or bird. It was only a few thousand feet high
and probably going 200-300mph. It was about 20-30 ft in diameter
and is definitely saucer shaped.

I taped it for a minute and a half before I lost sight of it. At
the time I had no idea what it was but upon further reviews of
the tape in slow motion and pausing it frame by frame I saw that
I captured something unique. The object was the classic disc
shape.

I didn't send the tape to anyone to analyze yet so if you want
to send it to someone for further analysis I would love to hear
what they think.

Thank you.

Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.
Video clip and pictures are =A92004RichG.

Video clip Silver Disc Phoenix, Arizona 2.80mbs

To view video clip:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1858

------------------------

Scarborough, Ontario Daytime White Light

Date: September 8, 2004
Time: 12:00 p.m.

On September 8, 2004, just after 12:00 p.m. in Scarborough,
Ontario. Looking west you can still see the moon.When you look
at 7 to 8 o'clock down away from the moon you see a dot of
light. Observed with binoculars you see a small pea shape of
white light. The distance I would guess would be as high as even
orbit. Another possible sighting and as always I grabbed 4
witnesses that also confirmed they could see it with the naked
eye also and asked, what is it? The condition of the sky was
rich blue (no overcast). I personally watched the object on and
off for 2 hrs. In observation, it moved with the moon in the
same range of distance apart. With the various sightings one
sees, the first thing that comes to mind is it natural? In other
words, could this have been Mars or any other planets seen with
the naked eye in the middle of the day?

I would very much appreciate any feedback on this by you or any
astronomer. Reason being is also I've seen this type of sighting
in eastern Ontario in Mid July, 2004 at 1:15 -3:00 p.m. but at a
more westerly direction along in Aug.2004 from Oshawa at
approx.12-1:00 p.m. in looking westerly at 12:00 o'clock above.
Different dates, different westerly sky positions, observed in
different locations of observation and in all these type of
sightings one dot a white light. Again I wonder, is this in fact
just a planet or something else? Take Care.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Kelowna, B.C. Lights

Date: September 12, 2004
Time: 10:15 p.m.

I=92m from Kelowna, B.C. and here is my story. On Sunday night
(Sep 12, 2004) at about 10:15 p.m. my parents went to go for a
walk and when they went outside my dad noticed an odd light in
the western sky, he called me out to see it and we stood there
for about 20 minutes watching it. It hovered up and down a
little bit and was flashing red and blue. It honestly looked
like a police car way off in the distance except way up in the
sky. After watching it for a bit a second light exactly the same
started moving north from it. It looked like it came out of the
first light. When it was moving it disappeared for a few seconds
then reappeared as if it was going behind clouds, but there were
no clouds in the sky because there were stars all around. Then
suddenly after about 7 seconds it just disappeared all together.
When my dad came back from his walk at about 11:00 p.m. he said
that the light was gone.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

San Jose, California Small Orange/Red Light In The Sky

Date: September 15, 2004
Time: 12:45 a.m.

Location of Sighting: San Jose/Los Gatos Border from foothills
towards south San Jose.
Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Round bright orange/red.

Hello,

About 30 minutes ago I was letting the cat out and decided to go
out front of the house for some fresh air. I was standing in the
front yard scanning the sky as just a moment earlier I saw a
shooting star. As I was looking up towards the foothills I saw a
small orange/red light in the sky coming in my direction. At
first I thought It might be the police helicopter as I see it
quite often this time of night. As it got closer I noticed that
it wasn't a helicopter at all. I thought it might be a plane.
But as it approached there was no sound and no blinking lights
what so ever. I kept an eye on it as it moved very smoothly and
from where I was standing it disappeared behind some trees
briefly and as it emerged from behind the trees I noticed that
it slowed down some...almost to a standstill and then what
looked like some jerking motion. And then it suddenly
disappeared.

I continued to scan the sky for a good ten minutes in the
general area that it disappeared into and saw absolutely NOTHING
thereafter.

Note: The sky was and still is completely clear of clouds or any mist/fog.=


Thanks.
Thank you to the witness for the report.

-------------------------

Kaufman County Texas Triangle, Boomerang Shaped Craft Pictures

Date: September 15, 2004
Time: 3:16 p.m.

Hi Brian

I was out taking a few pictures of the sky and clouds when I
noticed this thing going northwest. It was probably going about
3 or 4 hundred miles an hour, not too fast, but I didn't have my
camcorder with me. Just got this one picture with my Kodak
camera. I thought it was a black triangle at first but it looks
like it's got a straight backside and rounded on the front sides
kind of like a half moon, what you think? Anyways I'm sending
you a copy of the main picture and some enlargements, (you might
want to make your own) if you decide to post this. It was partly
cloudy today with a slight breeze, maybe 10mph. I saw one jet
afterwards with a contrail heading southeast. The picture was
taken at 3:16 p.m. today 09-15-04. Need more info, let me
know...Later my friend.

Thank you to the witness for the report and pictures.

To view pictures:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1863

---------------------------

Charlotte, North Carolina Rectangle With Reflecting Panels

Date: September 15, 2004
Time: 5:05 p.m.

Location of Sighting: North Charlotte around UNCC campus.
Number of witnesses: 1
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Rectangle

Full Description of event/sighting: I was driving north on I-85
approaching the UNC Charlotte campus. Traffic was heavy during
the 5 o'clock rush hour. I was going about 15 mph. Suddenly in
the sky ahead of me about 1/2 mile away appeared a large gray
rectangle. I estimate it's length as long as a football field.
It was gray with panels that were somewhat reflective. It
floated motionless and then drifted to the right. I lost sight
of it behind the tree line as I drove along. I had time to
remove my sunglasses so I watched it for approximately 10
seconds.

As I drove along toward the campus, there were several auto
accidents. I can't explain what I saw.

Additional Information:

Hi Brian,

In response to your questions:

Weather conditions: predominately cloudy, some sun mixed, big
puffy gray and white clouds

UFO location: Northeast Mecklenburg county, object was about 1/2
mile away from me, about 1,000 feet up

UFO movement: object hovered maintaining altitude, no up or down
movement, then moved east very slowly. I lost sight of it as I
drove along and it disappeared behind tree line. When I topped a
hill which provides a great vista view, it was not there.

Area of sighting: University of North Carolina Charlotte area,
approximately 15 miles northeast of downtown Charlotte

Aircraft in vicinity: None. Charlotte airport is about 15-18
miles southwest, Concord airport about 8-10 miles northeast

I contacted: UNCC campus police - they had no reports. Fox News
(local news) - no reports. Mecklenburg county police - no
reports.

UFO description: No visible lights. No fins or wings. Panels
were dark gray and slightly reflective and appeared to be
encased with metal. Resembled panels of skyscrapers. (If I had
to compare this object to something, I would say it looked like
a skyscraper floating horizontally.)

Brian, this is not the first time I have witnessed objects I
can't explain. Since June 2003, I've seen 4 objects (including
this one) which in my opinion are not man-made. If they are man-
 made, we sure as hell need to bring this technology to bear in
the war in Iraq. I appreciate your interest and will continue to
watch and report anything I see. Which leads me to my biggest
question - why am I seeing these things? I'm a rational college
educated woman and although I have often exclaimed that I would
love to see a UFO, I am astounded that it's happening.

Sincerely,

Thank you to the witness for the report.

---------------------

Alburque, New Mexico Round Very Bright Light

Date: September 16, 2004
Time: 6:45 p.m.

Location of Sighting: Northern New Mexico, Smiths parking lot.
Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: Round, very bright light.

Full Description of event/sighting: It was dusk out as my
boyfriend and I were heading out to the car, and he looked up in
the sky and noticed a very bright white object in the sky line.
It did not move, but continued to shine bright in the sky line.
We do not live far from the store so we rushed home to look at
it through the binoculars. We noticed it was changing color ever
so lightly, into a slight pink color, then the next thing the
object was totally gone. I was wondering if anyone else saw
this?

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----------------------

Phoenix, Arizona Weather Balloon Being Reported To The Media

Date: September 17, 2004
Time: 7:03 a.m.

Hey Brian How Are You?

I received a call from a friend at 6:30 a.m. today regarding
something in the sky. He told me to look up to the North about 1
o'clock and I will see something special. I went outside with
him still on the phone and couldn't believe my eyes. I saw this
weird looking balloon-like object hovering right by my house. I
started to get my camera and tripod but as I was doing this my
friend told me to not get so excited, it is only a weather
balloon. He then told me to turn to one of the local news
channels because they were talking about it and showing it on
T.V.. Many people are calling in reporting this balloon since
5:45 a.m. thinking it's a UFO.

I was disappointed to say the least but really curious because
the object was barely moving. I am writing this story to you now
an hour later and it may have moved an inch. The news channels
are reporting that this object came from New Mexico from an air
force base and it's a new type of weather balloon. The
dimensions are 300ft.tall and floating around 120,000ft.!

Well I guess it's not the mother ship but I just don't
understand how I can focus in on something so high and get all
the detail on this balloon. I will be reporting back on this to
you when more information is available, probably tomorrow.

Thank you to the witness for the report, footage and pictures of
the weather balloon.

Thank you to the gentleman for all of the clips and report.
Video clip and pictures are =A92004RichG.

Video clip Weather Balloon Over Phoenix, Arizona 2.36mbs
Video clip can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D1866

Brian Vike
Director HBCC UFO Research Home
Phone 250 845 2189 email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com
HBCC UFO RESEARCH Newsletter
At: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/








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   Sep > Sep 18

                  Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:43:50 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:08:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Harney


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:48:15 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Magonia - The Truth Is There [Was: New Mexico Governor...]

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:07:52 +0100
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>Would you please provide an example of anywhere in Magonia -
>>or anywhere in my book "The Evidence for Alien Abductions",
>>where I have said that abductees are "mad" or "should not be
>>allowed out unaccompanied", or anything like that? Or indeed
>>any other examples of regular insult and abuse.

>Certainly John;

>>From Magonia 83, December 2003:

>Dr David Jacobs, one of the most notorious abduction
>researchers, sees the whole business as physical rather than
>psychological and believes that very little can be done about
>it. He writes:

>"The secrecy surrounding the abduction phenomenon shows that the
>aliens have instituted an elaborate effort to prevent their
>detection. Detection, therefore, may be where they are the most
>vulnerable. If so, then perhaps we still have the opportunity to
>intervene. Yet so far, all our attempts at intervention and
>prevention have been ineffective. Experiments to interfere in
>abductions by using video cameras and other electronic equipment
>have, by and large, failed to stop them, although they have
>sometimes decreased their recurrence." (3)

>The Pelican has asked similar questions before, but it seems he
>needs to keep on asking: Can a person who writes something like
>the above paragraph, and who is presumably not joking, be sane?
>The Pelican's answer must be No, otherwise the concept of
>insanity loses its meaning. The thing to be done, therefore, is
>to urge people like Jacobs, Hopkins and others to seek the
>appropriate treatments for their condition. They are unlikely to
>listen, of course, so their pernicious practices, such as
>conducting hypnotic regressions while asking leading questions
>about disgusting grey aliens, should be actively denounced and
>discouraged, and their writings should be given the critical
>scrutiny which will expose them as the irrational nonsense that
>they are.

Yes, and The Pelican stands by every word of the above. This is
not insult or abuse, but plain speaking. This practice of
tinkering with persons' minds by unqualified amateurs obsessed
with mad theories about grey aliens is deplorable behaviour and
responsible people should miss no opportunity to say so.

>You are the editor. You take responsiblity for the following:
>John Harney gets infuriatingly supercilious about a recent
>addition to the UFO abduction literature:

No, I am responsible. This item appeared in Magonia Supplement,
which I started in 1998 and have edited ever since.

>Budd Hopkins and Carol Rainey, Sight Unseen: Science, UFO
>Invisibility and Transgenic Beings, Atria Books, New York, 2003

>One of them concerns the abductee Katharina Wilson who told
>Hopkins about an occasion when she flew from Portland, Oregon to
>Chicago to speak at a UFO conference

>So it seems we can indulge in any sort of fantastic speculation
>apart from the obvious one that Wilson was suffering from one of
>her mental fugues which caused her to lose an hour by wandering
>around aimlessly. This story will cause more sensible readers to
>wonder, not about a "changeable human energy field" (whatever
>that might be), but whether Wilson is fit to be allowed out on
>her own.

Wouldn't any sensible and responsible person agree that concern
for Katharina Wilson's mental health is a rather more
constructive attitude than apparently taking her story as being
a true account of objectively real events?

>Pelican 6

>As the Pelican prepared to express his deep concern for American
>ufology, and in particular for the mental health of its
>practitioners, a communication from Hilary Evans - who needs no
>introduction to our well-read readers - arrived at the
>luxuriously appointed Magonia editorial offices. This expressed
>remarkably similar sentiments. Great minds think alike! Who said
>the Pelican was a birdbrain?

>In particular, Hilary noted that American ufologists took each
>other's books seriously, even if they were as crazy as Jacobs's
>The Threat or Hopkins's Witnessed, instead of expressing concern
>about the mental states of their authors. (1) He concluded: "Are
>these people writing fun books for entertainment only? Or
>seriously, to work something out of their system? Or simply to
>make a quick buck? Sometimes I find myself hoping that it's the
>last of these alternatives."

>Meanwhile, in the UK, we have our ETHers and other nutters.
>There are the entertainers, who write silly books and give
>sillier lectures, illustrated with fuzzy video clips. There are
>the mentally unbalanced and the purveyors of numerous cranky
>theories, each of which purports to explain nearly all UFO
>reports. Then there are a few who take a practical, pragmatic
>view of UFO stories and simply try to establish the facts of
>each case, wherever this is possible. They know who they can
>trust, and who they should avoid in helping with their
>investigations, or they quickly find out.

Yes, most ufologists are a bit soft in the head. Perhaps it's
unkind to mention it but it's just one of the facts of life.

>The above took about 10 minutes to dig out. Given a little more
>time and inclination, I would have also included some of the
>countless examples of abuse towards those who hold different
>views from you. Now where have I heard that phrase before?

>So in conclusion John, you are an undoubted hypocrite of the
>worst kind.

But he didn't actually write any of this stuff, I did.

>An do me a further favour. Don't pat me on the head
>patronisingly, as you recently did with Alfred, wherebye you
>goaded him for days about not being able to come up with
>references for something or other, only to then ignore his
>efforts when he did.

>While I have, in the past, reacted negatively to calls on this
>List for your resignation, I'm beginning to feel that the time
>might now be more appropriate for such a consideration. Your
>presence here is no longer meaningful. It is, by your now own
>admission, a game, wherebye you creep into the lions den,
>raffishly tug his tail, and then run away squealing in childish
>glee, back to your similarly childish friends. It's boring and
>you must realise that you aren't taken seriously here any
>longer.

Yes, perhaps all those who like to engage in critical
examination of UFO reports and theories should un-subscribe from
this List, leaving it to the believers to indulge in the kinds
of discussions which would not upset Pollyanna or Anne of Green
Gables.


John Harney









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   Sep > Sep 18

                  Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:01:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:12:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Rimmer


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:48:15 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Magonia - The Truth Is There [Was: New Mexico Governor...]

>>>Thank you John for providing us with a crystal clear example
>>of hypocrisy.

>>>All of the above coming from a man who regularly insults and
>>>abuses people in Magonia, who frequently refers to abductees
>>>as mad or suggests they shouldn't be allowed out
>>>unaccompanied, and so on and so on.

>>Would you please provide an example of anywhere in Magonia -
>>or anywhere in my book "The Evidence for Alien Abductions",
>>where I have said that abductees are "mad" or "should not be
>>allowed out unaccompanied", or anything like that? Or indeed
>>any other examples of regular insult and abuse.

>Certainly John;

I suppose I could be very nitpicky and say that the quotations
you have found were not written by me, but by John Harney and
The Pelican - who contrary to some rumours, is not me with a
false beak - but you're right, these quotes did appear in a
magazine of which I am editor and so to that extent I am
answerable.

However, there is one important thing: apart from the comment
about the unfortunate lady in the washroom at Chicago airport -
OK, I put my hands up for that, you've got me bang to rights
and were spot on with the quote - all the Pelican's comments
were about UFO abduction _investigators_, not abductees. And
that is an important difference.

Nobody, I think, asks to be an abductee, but abduction
researchers go into the field fully aware that they are
involving themselves in an area of considerable public
controversy. And, by and large, most of them are able to look
after themselves in the arguments they get involved in.

I, Harney, and The Pelican, feel free to describe anyone as
barmy who writes barmy articles or puts barmy articles in their
books. This does not apply to genuine experiencers of the
abduction phenomenon, who are trying as honestly as possible to
describe their experience, and sometimes find that their
experiences have been subsequently distorted by researchers.

<snip>

I have cut The Pelican's words of wisdom, and advise you that
they are available for consultation in the UpDates archive.

>The above took about 10 minutes to dig out. Given a little more
>time and inclination, I would have also included some of the
>countless examples of abuse towards those who hold different
>views from you. Now where have I heard that phrase before?

>So in conclusion John, you are an undoubted hypocrite of the
>worst kind.

>An do me a further favour. Don't pat me on the head
>patronisingly, as you recently did with Alfred, wherebye you
>goaded him for days about not being able to come up with
>references for something or other, only to then ignore his
>efforts when he did.

I don't think I did ignore his efforts. He came up with a
quotation from an ill-informed sceptic who made some very silly
comments about the Hill abduction. I quite agreed with Mr
Lehmberg's view, and I am glad he gave me the opportunity to
demonstrate that sceptics can diagree amongst themselves -
something which I had previously been told does not happen.

>While I have, in the past, reacted negatively to calls on this
>List for your resignation, I'm beginning to feel that the time
>might now be more appropriate for such a consideration. Your
>presence here is no longer meaningful. It is, by your now own
>admission, a game, wherebye you creep into the lions den,
>raffishly tug his tail, and then run away squealing in childish
>glee, back to your similarly childish friends. It's boring and
>you must realise that you aren't taken seriously here any
>longer.

That, as Mr Lehmberg would say, is not for you to call.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/newmag.htm








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                  Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Chace

From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:10:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:18:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Chace


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:48:15 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Magonia - The Truth Is There [Was: New Mexico...]

>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:07:52 +0100
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>The above took about 10 minutes to dig out. Given a little more
>time and inclination, I would have also included some of the
>countless examples of abuse towards those who hold different
>views from you.

The examples Stuart cited strike me as blatantly arrogant and
presumptuous, so much so that their author should have known
they would come across that way when he wrote them.

It makes me wonder about the people we politely call hardened
skeptics or less politely "pelicanists." Also, it very much
reminds me of a time when Budd Hopkins was on the "Jenny Jones"
show (I think this was 1993).

They had a couple of abductees on with him (including a young
musician named Rusty Hudson - who was great) and a token skeptic.

The skeptic was an astronomer. Since UFO occupants are widely
believed to have evolved on the planets of other stars then it
would make sense that an astronomer would be and expert on UFO
abductions, right?

In any case, the astronomer suggested that perhaps what the
abductees were remembering as UFO abductions were actually other
kinds of traumatic experiences that years later come out in this
form.

That was a popular skeptical explanation at the time, as I
recall, before sleep paralysis and false memory syndrome became
more fashionable.

In response to the astronomer's suggestion, Budd offered that
there are cases where the missing time or UFO abduction
experience can happen to several people at once in which case
the individual traumatic explanation does not work.

The astronomer's rejoinder was that it was one thing to claim
that there are cases where this has happened to several people
at once, but quite another to go through a "systematic,
scientific investigation" to see if in fact, that is what the
evidence would show.

It struck me as if he was simply assuming that Budd Hopkins was
incompetent or given to making spurious claims to support his
position. It was an arrogant lack of deference or professional
courtesy for Budd's role as an empirical investigator of these
cases.

Budd, of course, politely pointed this out, stating, "There's
only one of us here who's doing the empirical work in this
field" and going on to say he has worked very hard in trying to
get scientists and so forth involved.

I remember going through my video library of TV talk shows and
what not, around that time, to pull together the many examples
where the various token skeptics had made such blatantly
arrogant, ignorant, presumptuous remarks. I think I had plans to
compile a tape with all those pieces spliced together. I don't
think I ever finished that little project, however, as I didn't
really have an audience for it.

I just wish to add that, the remarks of some of the "pelicanists"
clearly leave me wondering if they care about what the UFO
abductees have actually experienced or have any desire to find
out the truth about it.

Researchers like Dr. Jacobs and Budd Hopkins, however, have
always struck me as being motivated by conscience and genuine
intellectual curiosity, even though I have not always agreed
with their conclusions. Nevertheless they come across as having
a far better understanding of precisely what the lives of
abductees are like, and what phenomena such as "missing time"
truly entail, than the pelicanists do.

I have to conclude that Hopkins and Jacobs are simply better
listeners than are the pelicanists.


David W. Chace








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                         Re: New Orb Images - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:25:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:19:49 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - White


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:35:51 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>Perhaps my time working in a commercial photo lab, and my years
>of taking photographs have made me cynical, but I see nothing on
>the referenced site which appears to be anything more than what
>most would call a bad photo... marred by dust, smoke, etc. They
>are all easily reproducible, and predictably irreproducible
>under non-ideal conditions.

Orbs are visible to some people. More than that, there have been
camcorder clips of moving orbs and mists.

Orbs show on video where adjacent photos show no such "defects".


Eleanor White








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                         Re: New Orb Images - Shell

From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:39:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:21:36 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Shell


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:35:51 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>Perhaps my time working in a commercial photo lab, and my years
>of taking photographs have made me cynical, but I see nothing on
>the referenced site which appears to be anything more than what
>most would call a bad photo... marred by dust, smoke, etc. They
>are all easily reproducible, and predictably irreproducible
>under non-ideal conditions.


Well said. I looked at the site and laughed a lot.

Bob Shell








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   Sep > Sep 18

                     Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:44:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:24:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Clark


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:09:56 -0500
>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting [was New Mexico Governor]

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:25:11 +0100
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell


Patient and gentle Listfolk:

>As pelicanists won't tell you, there was a fully conscious,
>knowledgeable observer who, an hour before, witnessed what may
>well have been the same object. It didn't look like a meteor. As
>I write in my book, "On August 10 [1948] the officer in charge
>of the Sixth District Office of Special Investigations ...
>interviewed Walter Massey, a ground-maintenance crewman
>stationed at Robins Air Force Base in Georgia. Massey related
>that two hours prior to the Chiles-Whitted sighting [which

Careful readers will have caught the contradiction here. Did
Massey's sighting take place one hour or two hours before
Chiles-Whitted's? I'm afraid I have it both ways here.

When writing the above, I was consulting several sources - one
my book, the rest other accounts of the incident. Most of those,
I am chagrined to learn, say the Massey observation occurred an
hour before.

I may have been in error in my own published account.

Apologies for confusing anybody who caught the contradiction. If
any patient and gentle reader can shed light on the matter,
please let us know.


Jerry Clark








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              Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Smith

From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:55:37 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:27:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Smith


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:10:27 -0700
>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:12:57 -0700
>>Subject: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>Mexican Air Force FLIR's video lights are not UFOs they are
>>oil well gas flames!

>>http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/REFERENCE_DATA.html

>>My own video recording showing I was right.

>This whole question of how gas-flames from 80 miles distance
>could show up so strongly on the FLIR equipment while remaining
>invisible to the naked eye sure has me puzzled

This is an oft-repeated question which can be answered by the
narrow field of view of the FLIR video camera being far superior
to the wide field of view of the human eye. If they had had
binoculars or a telescopic sight to view them (and a steady
hand!) then they would have seen them without the FLIR.

The FLIR field of view during the famous segment is .8deg by
.6deg and .4 deg by .3deg. Thats damn narrow!

Regarding absorption of IR, I have not done the analysis so can
only speculate, since I have only correlated lights and patterns
with Landsat images.

Since the aircraft was fairly high up and looking essentially
down at a shallow angle, then likely the FLIR view angle missed
most of the water vapor.

Satellites commonly view in the infrared and go off-scale for
the oil-rig flares. Of course the water vapor in the atmosphere
directly above the oil-rigs is likely less than that in the
distance from aircraft and oil flares.








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   Sep > Sep 18

                        Conferences Around Australia

From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 08:11:23 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:07:22 -0400
Subject: Conferences Around Australia


Hi Folks,

Conferences, Conferences, Conferences
All round Australia

Brisbane Queensland
Date: 24th, 25th & 26th Sept
Nexus Conference
Speakers from all over the world.
For more information click on the link:

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/nexconf2004.1.html


South Australian Conference
Speaker: Lloyd Pye from USA
Date: 27th Sept
Hosted by AURA for more details click on the link:

http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/LLOYDPYE.html

Sponsored by NEXUS & THE AUSTRALASIAN UFOLOGIST


Melbourne Victoria
Speaker: Valery Uvarov from Russia
Date: 29th Sept
Hosted by AUFORN Victoria
For more details click on the link:

http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Uvarov.html

Sponsored by NEXUS & THE AUSTRALASIAN UFOLOGIST


Sydney New South Wales
Speakers: Lloyd Pye, USA &  Valery Uvarov, Russia
Dates 2nd Oct
Hosted by UFOR NSW  - AUFORN/UFOESA

http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/LLOYDPYE.html

http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Uvarov.html
Sponsored by NEXUS & THE AUSTRALASIAN UFOLOGIST


Brisbane Queensland
Speakers: Lloyd Pye, USA
Date: 7th Oct
Hosted by AUFORN Queensland

http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/LLOYDPYE.html

Sponsored by NEXUS & THE AUSTRALASIAN UFOLOGIST

Don't forget to pass this information on to your friends. Hear
lots of new and interesting information.


--

Regards Diane Harrison

National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn.nul
E-mail: ufologist.nul
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD  Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
          1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>

All NEW UFO Bookshop at
http://www.contactpublishing.com








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               Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:08:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:13:40 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King


>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:09:00 +1000
>Subject: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)

>UFO News 17th September 2004 (Australia)

<snip>

>How very curious I thought, but even more fascinating to me was
>the response by the audience at our UFO meeting. Some saw
>Blaine's levitation as a trick and offered ideas as anti-gravity
>plates under his shoes, invisible cables around his waist,
>others offered that spiritually advanced people have been
>reported as developing special abilities and maybe Blaine was
>one of them, while others just sat on the fence to wait and see.
>Later I wondered to myself if this might be at all reflective of
>our response to ETs landing on Earth.

Sheryl,

An interesting aside on the Blaine "Street Magic" special... The
producers mentioned several times during the broadcast that
there were no camera tricks used for Blaine's illusions.

Nonetheless, in the street scenes there are two versions of the
levitation illusion. One is a "demonstration" of the levitation
where Blaine is lifted by wires. The producers later explained
that those that were watching this particular "demonstration"
were aware of the wires, so no "trick" was involved. The other
instances of Blaine's levitation illusion involve a simple yet
startling parlor trick that depends on a highly specific viewing
angle and the ability to raise ones weight onto the ball of one
foot with little apparent effort. Under the proper circumstances
it is a truly amazing illusion.

Blaine's illusions are very popular because they appear to be so
impromptu... not staged. This is Blaine's talent, whether
through innate ability or extended practice or both. He dresses
in jeans and a t-shirt. His nonchalant manner is deceptive of
his extreme control over the perception of those watching.
Devilishly clever! :)

The gullibility of an audience watching a magic show, the
willful suspension of disbelief, is an apt area of study for
those involved with investigating UFO cases. The reactions of
magic show patrons reflect the variety of reactions found in the
UFO literature. It is precisely this dynamic which you observed
at the conference. The environment was such that those present
felt at ease letting the imagination run with it. In a different
but equally manipulative setting, perhaps the timbre of the
discussion would have been more sober and concrete and less
theoretical.

I use the term manipulative in a non-pejorative sense here...
UFO conferences are in the ideal a good environment for
encouraging the imagination. We start to stagnate a little when
we stop letting our imagination take us away a little now and
then. Hence the popularity of magic shows even among those that
do not believe in it.

I honestly wonder how many truly unusual objects are seen every
day, and dismissed as nothing but a misperception... and go
unreported.

Thanks for the post!


Kyle








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                         Re: New Orb Images - Taylor

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 09:21:09 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:15:59 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Taylor


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:35:51 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:28:36 +1000
>>Subject: New Orb Images

><snip>

>Perhaps my time working in a commercial photo lab, and my years
>of taking photographs have made me cynical, but I see nothing on
>the referenced site which appears to be anything more than what
>most would call a bad photo...marred by dust, smoke, etc. They
>are all easily reproducible, and predictably irreproducible
>under non- ideal conditions.

>Is any serious student of UFO-related anomalies actually
>studying the subject of orbs? From any kind of scientific
>perspective? The "enhancement" images on the site do not
>qualify, IMHO. Like the previously noted "Hungarian UFO",
>enhancing distortion or noise simply makes the noise louder.
>Not at all revelatory, but wholly obfuscatory.


Kyle,

If you would like to put your "... time working in a commercial
photo lab, and your years of taking photographs... " experience
to practical use, then I offer you a page on my web site where
you can present your case and display your duplicated fake Orb
photos that we can use as comparisons to the real ones.

If you want to contribute practical research to this subject,
here is your chance. "Put your money where your mouth is", as
the saying goes. Produce your bad photo...marred by dust, smoke,
etc. If, as you say, "..are all easily reproducible, and
predictably irreproducible under non- ideal conditions". You
should have no problems with this. Then we can gauge who is most
"vociferous". (as you would say) That's not too obfuscatory for
you is it?


Barry Taylor









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                         Re: New Orb Images - Taylor

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 09:54:43 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:17:43 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Taylor


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:04:58 -0700
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:28:36 +1000
>>Subject: New Orb Images

>>Some people more then others seem to have the ability to
>>photograph Orbs in a variety of locations and situations. One
>>gentleman and his female friend in the UK are two people that
>>have found that they are able to photograph some unusual
>>phenomena inside and outside their homes. This page is dedicated
>>to just some of the unusual photos they have taken over the last
>>two years.

>>http://theozfactor.nucleardays.com/spirit13.htm

>Putting on my skepti-bunker hat for a moment. All they look like
>to me is dust or water particles blurred out of focus.

>I would be a lot more convinced if these people could get a 3-D
>camera or two identical and synchronized cameras and get a
>stereo pair showing these "orbs". Then we might be able to get a
>decent approximation of distance so we could tell if it's dust
>out of focus or some larger structured phenomenon.


Hi Tim,

I wish all skeptibunker comments were as sensible as yours. I
fully understand your view on this and appreciate your 3-D
camera suggestion.

These people taking the UK Orb photos are using controlled
procedures as best they can under normal environmental
conditions. They do not deliberatly try to fake these images.
They inform me they take hundreds of photos to get just a few
with Orbs, and have discarded many that they considered may not
be the real thing. They are most critical of their own work.

We have been debating the dust, lint and water droplet out of
focus issue for the last few weeks with researcher producing a
'Paper' on the subject of Orbs. You will become aware of this in
time.

I have just purchased a 3-D camera and will begin my own
attempts to photograph Orbs. This seems to be the most
convincing type of evidence to produce. Will be interesting to
see what flaws will be found in this by some. I have no doubt
the Orb Phenomena is real, we just need better and unique
evidence to display this fact.


Barry Taylor








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                        Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:06:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:19:30 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:35:51 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:28:36 +1000
>>Subject: New Orb Images

<snip>

>With All Due Levity
>If these folks want to save a lot of film by getting an "orb" in
>every shot, just tell them to shuffle around on the carpet for a
>few seconds before taking photos. This seems to "awaken" the
>"staubengeists" and gets them into a photogenic mood.

<snip>

>Is any serious student of UFO-related anomalies actually
>studying the subject of orbs? From any kind of scientific
>perspective? The "enhancement" images on the site do not
>qualify, IMHO. Like the previously noted "Hungarian UFO",
>enhancing distortion or noise simply makes the noise louder.
>Not at all revelatory, but wholly obfuscatory.

May I suggest you visit:

http://brumac.8k.com/orb1.html

Maybe you will find what you are... or are not.... looking for.








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             Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:15:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:22:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Maccabee


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:10:27 -0700
>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul, "- UFO UpDates
>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:42:59 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

<snip>

>>During one section of the video, the most notable objects were>
>>in a doubled triplet formation, pacing the airplane off the port
>>side, and are seen to have passed _in_front of_ a nearby cloud
>>top, then pass _behind_* an even closer cloud-top fragment,
>>then emerge.

Actually this is debatable. It could be that the cloud is thin
enough to allow infrared through. The brightnesses of the lights
changes in a manner expected if they were coming through cloud
and then get brighter as the sighting line exits the cloud area.

Note that I said "sighting line"and not objects.

It is likely that the objects were much farther away than the
clouds and the motion past clouds is an illusion.

The key question is: were they abov the horizon?

The flir readout numbers suggest they were, but to be positive
the flir must be calibrated.


>>Thus, it seems silly to press the case for a well-gas-flame
>>explanation, in which flames show up in the visible, not just
>>the infrared, to anyone who has viewed the March 5th video.

>Jim and List,

>This whole question of how gas-flames from 80 miles distance
>could show up so strongly on the FLIR equipment while remaining
>invisible to the naked eye sure has me puzzled

>Infrared is much more strongly absorbed by the atmosphere than
>visible light.

>While probably 99% of the radiation emitted by a gas flame would
>be in the infrared (just like a candle flame), this would be
>compensated for by strong infrared absorption, particularly by
>water vapor.

>This was a very humid environment, looking out over jungle and
>ocean in the direction of the oil wells.

>I would be very surprised if any infrared from the oil well
>flames made it through all that atmosphere, not to mention
>clouds, which should be extremely strong absorbers of infrared.

The particular spectral range 3.5 - 5 microns was chosen to to
avoid as much as possible the absorption. However, this still
does not avoid it all. An experiment is needed.

>Yet not only do the lights show up strongly on the FLIR viewer,
>they appear undiminished in brightness in front of intervening
>clouds.

I have looked carefully for clear evidence of this "undiminished
brightness in front of clouds"... and have found none. What I
have found by triangulation (the plane moves, the azimuth angle
changes is large distances to the lights.

>On the other hand, the plots showing the lights generally to be
>in the same direction as the oil wells does give me pause. There
>are still a whole bunch of loose ends to this case.

Yes. Experiments are needed.








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   Sep > Sep 18

                  Re: Appeal Of Denial of FOIA Request For

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:10:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:25:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Appeal Of Denial of FOIA Request For


 TO: Director
 U. S. Central Intelligence Agency
 ATTN: Agency Release Panel (c/o Mr. Scott Koch)
 Washington, DC 20505

 FROM: Larry W. Bryant
 3518 Martha Custis Drive
 Alexandria, VA 22302

DATE: September 18, 2004

By his Sept. 9, 2004, letter denying my fee-waiver request of
Aug. 9, 2004 (his reference No. F-2004-01956), CIA FOIA manager
Scott Koch errs in placing me in the requester category of
"commercial" entity. My demonstrable status as an independent
writer-researcher specializing in "national security" issues,
public-records access, and First Amendment commentary entitles
me to the requested records-search-fee waiver. What's more, his
totally disingenuous, knee-jerk assertion that the public would
gain no "significant" benefit from your agency's production of
the sought-for records in this case of reported rogue CIA
operations constitutes an unacceptable administrative cop-out.

If you need concrete evidence of my news-media publication
credits, please consult the Internet via a "Google" search under
my name (Larry W. Bryant); in this regard, I also can provide
related correspondence between me and other agencies' FOIA-
management personnel (including those at the Departments of
State and Interior). As an update of my requester-status
profile, here are my most recent publication credits:

(1) One or more articles/book reviews carried in the newsstand
magazine FATE;

(2) An expanded edition of my book "UFO Politics at the White
House: Citizens Rally 'round Jimmy Carter's Promise," due out
shortly from FATE's parent company, Galde Press.

In recent times, too, I've been contributing research to the
news/information web site of http://www.militarycorruption.com

As you peruse this record of "news media"
representation/interaction on my part, you cannot but conclude
that my research/writing projects have much more to do with the
public's understanding (and oversight) of government
policies/activities/programs than they do with, say, the CIA's
documentation/methods-and-sources for determining the price of
tea in China.

If you insist on sustaining Mr. Koch's denial of my fee-waiver
request, I hereby serve notice that, through my attorney (Mark
S. Zaid, Esq), I shall seek judicial relief via a complaint to
be filed within the U. S. District Court for the District of
Columbia.

By snail-mail, I'm sending to you a signed printout of this e-
formatted message.


Larry W. Bryant

Copies furnished to:
Mark S. Zaid, Esq. (Washington, D.C.)
John J. McCarthy
Phyllis Galde (Editor of FATE)
Webmaster of MilitaryCorruption.com
Chairman, U. S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary
Cambodian Ambassador to the United States
Webmaster of http://www.virtuallystrange.net










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   Sep > Sep 18

               Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 01:28:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:26:50 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - Hatch


>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:09:00 +1000
>Subject: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)

>UFO News 17th September 2004 (Australia)

>A report on the activities of UFO Research Queensland Inc.
>Brisbane, Australia. www.uforq.asn.au

>"In the end, the abduction phenomenon seems to be a part of the
>shift in consciousness that is collapsing duality and enabling
>us to see that we are connected beyond the Earth at a cosmic
>level." - Dr John Mack

- - -

Hello Sheryl:

If the quote above were anonymous, I would instantly kiss it off
as meaningless new-age mind mush.

Since the good doctor is credited, and with some regrets, I have
to call it meaningless new-age Mack-mush.


Sorry

- Larry











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   Sep > Sep 18

                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:33:13 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:28:42 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:47:46 -0700
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:48:16 +0200
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>>I am interested in the search of the truth, whatever it turns
>>out to be, and I am sure I'm not alone. Have you passed your
>>findings to people like David Rudiak, Bob Durant, Mark
>>Rodeghier, Bruce Maccabee, Wendy Connors?

<snip>

>It's not that I don't want to hear what Brad has to say. It's
>that he won't tell me anything, even though I've asked in
>private email. All he tells me is that I'm blinded to the truth
>by pro-ET bias, I and others have it all wrong, drops an
>occasional hint as to what he has, but never spells it out.

>I find this enormously frustrating. It's like the guy at the
>poker table saying he's got everybody beat with a royal flush,
>but refuses to show his hand. Nobody is going to pay up until
>they see what he's got. This has nothing to do with biases or
>agendas.

>I'm sure Brad could write a 2 or 3 paragraph synopsis of what
>his theory is and what evidence he has to back it. Then there
>would be something concrete to discuss. I have no problems if
>he doesn't want to carry on a public discussion of it. I just
>want to know what he has.

<snip>


David

Thank you for clarifying this new twist in the Roswell debate.
The argument of Brad Sparks is just unacceptable. He must show
"his cards", or shut-up.


Gildas








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   Sep > Sep 18

                          Bexley's New UFO Sighting

From: Mo Elnadi <mo.elnadi.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:05:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:33:52 -0400
Subject: Bexley's New UFO Sighting


Source: This Is Lewisham - London, UK

http://www.thisislewisham.co.uk/display.var.528802.0.they_were_over_there_honest
.php

09-17-04


They Were Over There, Honest!

A Pensioner's early morning trip to the bathroom turned into a close
encounter of the third kind when she spotted three UFOs hovering
outside her bungalow.

Dorothy Godfrey, 72, of North Road, Belvedere, was returning to bed at
around 5am on Monday when she looked out a back window to check on the
weather.

The grandmother had to call her husband to witness the amazing sight.

She said: "There were three lights in the sky, they looked like light
bulbs but they were quite a long way away.

"After a few seconds one zipped off toward Woolwich and another zipped
to the Thames. The third one stayed for a while longer before zooming
off in the direction of the river. I called my husband because I knew
if he didn't see them he would think I was dreaming."

She added: "I'm not senile, I know what I saw. Before this morning I
never really believed in little green men, but there is obviously
something up there. My daughter believes everything about Martians.
She's very much into these things and she said I should report it."

The sighting comes just four miles from Bexley's most famous UFO incident.

In 1955 a UFO was spotted in King Harold's Way, Bexleyheath, by more
than 30 people. The craft, which hovered above the ground and had
eight suckers' on it, flew off over Bedonwell Primary School when
people tried to touch it.

For more information, visit newsshopper.co.uk/ sfiles/strange/ufos/ If
you know what the mysterious lights were, call the newsroom on 01689
885724.









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   Sep > Sep 18

                     Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:23:12 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:38:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Allan


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:09:56 -0500
>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting [was New Mexico Governor]

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:25:11 +0100
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:37:01 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>I know that Jerry thinks highly of James McDonald's views on
>>>this case, but on reading his submission to the 1968 US House
>>>Committee Symposium on UFOs, I was amazed to find that he
>>>interviewed the two pilots in 1968, *twenty years* after the
>>>event. In these circumstances I cannot regard this interview as
>>>having anything other than anecdotal value.

>>A brief submission:

>>A good account and discussion of the Chiles-Whitted case is in
>>the Condon Report p.567-582, in Process of Perception,
>>Conception & Reporting, by William K. Hartmann. Worth reading.

>>Don't forget that the one passenger witness did not describe the
>>UFO in the same detail as did the pilots.

>Uh huh. Know why? Because his sighting was briefer and he was
>barely awake; therefore, as any sensible person would conclude,
>that testimony is of marginal value.

>Oh, excuse me, I forgot: it _is_ highly valuable and, moreover,
>precisely accurate because it does not "describe the UFO in the
>same detail as did the pilots" and therefore can be incorporated
>into meteor theory. See, folks, in the pelicanist world the
>testimony of two alert, experienced airline pilots can be
>discarded in favor of that of a drowsy lay passenger if it
>serves the purpose.

All right; forget his testimony altogether. It does not affect
Hartmann's lengthy discussion in the slightest.

The sleepy passenger probably mistook night pelicans for the UFO
anyway.

>We all know what pelicanists would make of the testimony of a
>half-awake individual who claimed an exotic sighting. In fact,
>no sensible ufologist (excuse me, "ETHer") would make much of
>it, either.

>As pelicanists won't tell you, there was a fully conscious,
>knowledgeable observer who, an hour before, witnessed what may
>well have been the same object. It didn't look like a meteor. As
>I write in my book, "On August 10 [1948] the officer in charge
>of the Sixth District Office of Special Investigations ...
>interviewed Walter Massey, a ground-maintenance crewman
>stationed at Robins Air Force Base in Georgia. Massey related
>that two hours prior to the Chiles-Whitted sighting [which
>occurred just southwest of Montgomery, Alabama, at 5000 feet] he
>was 'standing fire guard on a C-47' ... and facing north when he
>spotted something coming from that direction. At first it looked
>like a 'stream of fire,' but when it passed directly overhead on
>a straight, level course, he could make out the details. It
>'appeared to be a cylindrical-shaped object with a long stream
>of fire coming out of the tail end. I am sure it [was] not a jet
>since I have observed P-84s in flight at night on two
>occasions.' He thought it was the size of a B-29 or 'a little
>larger in circumference It was too large for a jet. It seemed to
>be a dark color and constructed of an unknown metallic type [of]
>material.'

>"He estimated that it was at 3000 feet but acknowledged that was
>a guess. Asked if he saw windows, he pointed out, 'It would be
>hard to tell if there were windows and a divided deck could not
>be recognized from the ground.' The object reminded him of a
>German V-2 rocket that he and a fellow soldier had observed in
>Europe during the Battle of the Bulge, except that the one over
>Georgia was bigger and faster."

>In the context of CW, Sign investigator Capt. Robert R. Sneider
>took note of four separate incidents, "one having occurred on 24
>July 1948 and the others on 26 July 1948. A preponderance of the
>evidence is available to establish that in almost all cases an
>unidentified object was seen within stated times and dates over
>an extended area, pursuing a general Southerly course.
>Descriptions as to size, shape, color and movements are fairly
>consistent."

Exactly. That is why the C-W case shook the USAF so severely
when it occurred. See Ruppelt's book.

But with the passage of time it clearly lost its impact, and was
not taken anything like so literally as it was by the Project
Sign team in 1948.

In 1948 some of the team were undoubtedly concerned about the
possibility of visiting spaceships. See my riposte below on the
'Estimate of the Situation'.

>>Hartmann fully convinced me that the C-W case was not a
>>spaceship, but I agree that ETHers will never accept the answer
>>given, especially if they regard the whole Condon Report as a
>>whitewash.

>Now, there's a shocker. Seriously, folks, it doesn't take much
>for the likes of Christopher Allan to be "fully convinced" of
>what they already are predisposed to believe, and it helps to
>have zero tolerance for ambiguity, too.

Who said I was "already predisposed to believe"? Only Jerry
Clark. In fact, before I first read those pages, in 1969 or 70,
I was disposed to believe it was a likely spaceship, like the
Sign team in fact!.

You have got it back to front this time Jerry, sorry!

>The problems with the Condon report are not in the text, which
>is virtually a brief for UFOs as puzzling anomalies, but in the
>notoriously misleading, dismissive introduction. What
>Christopher has written above is simplistic and just plain
>wrong. If he wants to prove that the striking pro-UFO evidence
>in the text is consistent with the negative introduction (which
>the UFOphobic Ed Condon wrote to serve himself), he has his work
>cut out for him. In any event:

>In my book Strange Skies (Citadel, 2003) I discuss sightings of
>UFOs - in daylight and under excellent viewing conditions --
>identical or markedly similar to the one Chiles and Whitted
>observed (see pp. 81-87). Pelicanists, of course, pretend that
>those don't exist, only the meteor sightings that Condon
>investigator (and UFO-hostile astronomer) William K. Hartmann
>discusses, neglecting to point out that in this case (February
>9, 1913) the spectacular meteors were observed from Saskatchewan
>to the New Jersey coast. On the other hand, the CW "meteor" --
>though a spectacular one - was weirdly confined to three
>observers over a small area of air space over Alabama.

Hartmann was hardly "UFO-hostile" at that time. He was a fence
sitter - witness his endorsement of the McMinnville photos. I
don't deny he has hardened his anti-UFO stance since.

>Though he lazily declares it, Hartmann doesn't provide any
>documentation that the extraordinary observation he cites is
>indeed meteoric. All we know is that of the many thousands of
>witnesses, one - let me repeat, one - claimed to have seen
>what "resembled a large aeroplane or dirigible, with two tiers
>of lights strung along the sides." If one were so inclined, one
>could argue - and not have to worry that anybody can
>conclusively prove otherwise - that this is exactly what the
>witness saw. After all, other witnesses have seen the same when
>no meteor shower, or meteor at all, was in evidence. Perhaps the
>witness did see a UFO, while the meteor shower that happened to
>be going on around him at the same time was simply coincidental.
>There's no reason to believe that UFOs can't appear in the midst
>of meteor showers; after all, as decades of sighting reports
>attest, they can show up pretty much whenever and wherever they
>want to.

>Obviously, I am not arguing this is necessarily the case, though
>not because I know it _can't_ be true. All I am certain of is
>that _we just don't know_. All we can say is that Hartmann takes
>a convenient quote out of any discernible context and runs with
>it, "fully convincing" the likes of Christopher, whose skeptical
>facilities evaporate whenever he comes upon something that makes
>him feel warm and fuzzy.

See above for my answer. Hartmann happened to convince me that
it was a bright fireball, whereas I was prepared to accept the
UFO was a spaceship before this.

Jerry: just stop assuming what my beliefs were 35 years ago! Why
not consider instead what yours were? Hasn't anyone ever 'fully
convinced' you (in one direction or the other) about a sighting
or abduction?

>Not content with this simple and uncertainly relevant anecdote,
>Hartmann goes on, in the familiar pelicanist manner, to relate
>his own after-dinner story, in this instance about his own
>sighting of something he allegedly saw from an airliner but
>couldn't immediately identify, until later he realized it was
>another airliner.

>As we all know, pelicanists hate anecdotes, except, of course,
>the anecdotes that serve them obediently. Hartmann uses his
>little yarn to advance the underwhelmingly original observation
>that witnesses are sometimes mistaken; therefore, the CW case
>closed. Kids, in case you've been wondering, that's the
>scientific investigation of unidentified flying objects.

>>However, in the Battelle Study (Blue Book report 14) it is
>>listed as one of the 12 "good unknowns". But Battelle did no
>>investigation whatever.

>Your point being? Battelle was tasked, as it always is whatever
>the subject, to conduct analyses, not investigations. I could
>point out that Christopher Allan has done "no investigation
>whatever" of the CW sighting. Neither, by the way, did his
>friend Hartmann, who cites as his sources NICAP and Menzel and
>Boyd's debunking book (see Condon Report, Bantam edition, p.
>581), not C&W themselves. In common with all other meteor
>believers, Hartmann couldn't be bothered to interview Chiles and
>Whitted, both still alive in the 1960s when Condon's committee
>was active. As I have already remarked, those who actually
>_talked_ with the two pilots agreed that they must have seen
>something fantastic; it's only those who didn't who cling to the
>meteor speculation.

Hartmann did interview the Trents and came down broadly on their
side. So much for his 'pelicanism'.

What "friend" was he to me anyway?

He has never heard of me, whereas he certainly has heard of
Jerry Clark. Your 'friend' I suppose?

I am prepared to accept his investigation & conclusion on this
case. Jerry obviously is not. We all have our differences, don't
we?

>In point of fact, as I write in my book, "it is impossible to
>prove that Chiles and Whitted did _not_ see a meteor." It's also
>impossible to prove that

>(a) they did not make up the story out of whole cloth;

>(b) they did not fall asleep and dream it;
>
>(c) they did not see a stationary astronomical body and
>hallucinate movement and structure;

>(d) they did not observe an advanced, still-secret experimental
>aircraft of earthly - presumably American, possibly Soviet,
>maybe even Atlantean - origin and perhaps embellish or imagine
>some details; or

>(d) they were not drunk or under the influence of drugs at the
>time.

>It follows, of course, that all witnesses who before, then, and
>since have reported comparable UFOs are suffering from one or
>more of the above- stated afflictions.

>In retrospect, the CW sighting's evidential value has diminished
>because other, better cases have replaced it. You can't
>conclusively disprove the meteor theory or any of the other ones
>cited above (or for that matter any other one you want to make
>up), any more than you can prove them. All we can do is make our
>judgments on whatever testimonial evidence is available to us,
>and beyond that on what Michael Swords has called our "vision of
>the possible." We can also compare it to other sightings of
>similar objects seen in contexts where meteors need not apply.
>Christopher is only pointing out the obvious (though apparently
>under the impression he is offering some sort of devastating
>insight) when he notes that even by the early 1950s other,
>better, more interesting unknowns were there to puzzle
>investigators and analysts.

>This whole discussion began when one of the Johns (I no longer
>recall which) declared as if it were an established fact that
>the CW sighting had been conclusively explained as a meteor. As
>I have shown, that is far from the case. It is no more than a
>hypothesis which at this late date is essentially unfalsifiable
>-- which is no mere happenstance; it's exactly how pelicanists
>like it. As Brad Sparks has cogently remarked, we shouldn't even
>be discussing this case. Nothing (if ever it could) can be
>established with anything close to certainty. The sanest course
>surely is to acknowledge as much - God, it seems obvious enough
>-- and move on.

>In the meantime, CW's sighting recedes ever deeper into history,
>eclipsed by many other reports which more compellingly make the
>case for anomalous UFOs. The case for UFOs neither stands nor
>falls on the CW incident, whose interest to 21st-Century ufology
>is more historical than evidential. At least, however, we can do
>it the courtesy, when the subject comes up, of thinking clearly
>about it and not pretending to certainties that probably will
>forever elude us.

I have merely stated what is acceptable to me in this case, and
Hartmann's analysis is just that.

If you disagree, then too bad.

Of course the case for UFOs does not stand or fall on the C-W
case. I do expect, however, that quite a few ufologists would
still list it as one of their top ten.

There are people who say the C-W case ranks of high importance
since it instigated the (in)famous "Estimate of the Situation"
in August 1948, and we all know its top secret conclusions, and
how Vandenberg destroyed it, don't we Jerry?

Whatever Brad Sparks says, we are perfectly free to discuss any
case we like - as long as someone is interested, and responds.
If nobody is interested, the responses will quickly cease, and
the case will become stale and then defunct. That is the test.

Any chance of a rediscussion on Adamski or Van Tassell, Jerry?

And just think of the acres of paper that have been spent on the
McMinnville or Stephen Darbishire photos. Do you want to reopen
those? I don't, but others might want to. Both guaranteed, yes
guaranteed, to be a complete stalemate.

I'll bet you are agog with excitement.


CDA








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   Sep > Sep 18

                     Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:41:52 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:40:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Hall


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:44:02 -0500
>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:09:56 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting [was New Mexico Governor]

>>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:25:11 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>Patient and gentle Listfolk:

>>As pelicanists won't tell you, there was a fully conscious,
>>knowledgeable observer who, an hour before, witnessed what may
>>well have been the same object. It didn't look like a meteor. As
>>I write in my book, "On August 10 [1948] the officer in charge
>>of the Sixth District Office of Special Investigations ...
>>interviewed Walter Massey, a ground-maintenance crewman
>>stationed at Robins Air Force Base in Georgia. Massey related
>>that two hours prior to the Chiles-Whitted sighting [which

>Careful readers will have caught the contradiction here. Did
>Massey's sighting take place one hour or two hours before
>Chiles-Whitted's? I'm afraid I have it both ways here.

>When writing the above, I was consulting several sources - one
>my book, the rest other accounts of the incident. Most of those,
>I am chagrined to learn, say the Massey observation occurred an
>hour before.

>I may have been in error in my own published account.

>Apologies for confusing anybody who caught the contradiction. If
>any patient and gentle reader can shed light on the matter,
>please let us know.

>Jerry Clark

Jerry,

In The UFO Evidence (1964, p. 44) I have it this way - following
is a quote from UFOE - :

At Robbins AFB, Georgia, on the same night, about 2:00 a.m., a
'long, dark wingless tube' was seen rushing overhead spurting
flame from the stern.

I think that was from the Air Force Blue Book files, but someone
can check that.


 - Dick









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   Sep > Sep 18

                          Re: New Orb Images - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:49:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:42:01 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - King


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:25:32 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>Orbs are visible to some people. More than that, there have been
>camcorder clips of moving orbs and mists.

>Orbs show on video where adjacent photos show no such "defects".

>Eleanor White

Eleanor,

I completely agree that a camcorder could record a moving object
or smoke cloud. In fact, I have made videos where these
annoyances ruined an otherwise good shot.

We do not argue. Perhaps the more pertinent point is that I look
at such a video and see dust motes and wispy smoke made vividly
noticeable by bright light and sensitive film/CCD. Others see
what they see and interpret it as they see fit. Perhaps you
should explain what you mean when you say "orb". When I say orb,
I mean a dust mote or other object or smoke wisp made
artificially bright and large by lighting or the sun reflecting
back into the lens of the camera.

Orbs are visible to some people. I'm not sure what this means,
other than perhaps you are stating that a person reporting to
have seen one must have seen some kind of supernatural thing. I
do not know how you can make such a statement in the absence of
any evidence. If I'm not understanding correctly, I apologize
and ask for clarification.

Your final comment is a strong endorsement of my thesis. A
camcorder records an "orb" while a still camera very close by
records nothing.

If orbs are a real phenomena, how is this possible? Are orbs
able to decide what devices are capable of recording them?

I have asked this before, and there are obviously lots of people
taking meaningless photos of living rooms, back yards, etc., to
get an orb on film/video. Show us two photos taken
simultaneously which show the same object in the same place.
This would allow the object to be measured for distance, size,
etc.

Alas, it has yet to occur. As you said, orbs are in the eye of
the beholder, whether the beholder is a human, a camcorder tape,
or a still image.

And until evidence is presented to the contrary, there they
shall remain.

The lack of simultaneous recording supports my position. In this
case, if I may be forgiven, absence of evidence is evidence of
absence.

Warm Regards,


Kyle









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   Sep > Sep 18

             Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:02:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:43:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Maccabee


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:55:37 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:10:27 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

<snip>

>>This whole question of how gas-flames from 80 miles distance
>>could show up so strongly on the FLIR equipment while remaining
>>invisible to the naked eye sure has me puzzled

>This is an oft-repeated question which can be answered by the
>narrow field of view of the FLIR video camera being far superior
>to the wide field of view of the human eye. If they had had
>binoculars or a telescopic sight to view them (and a steady
>hand!) then they would have seen them without the FLIR.

>The FLIR field of view during the famous segment is .8deg by
>6deg and .4 deg by .3deg. Thats damn narrow!

One must also include the effect of daylight. At night the
witnesses probably could have seen the lights. But in the
daylight the visible light from the flares was competing with
the atmospheric "background glow" caused by scattered sunlight.
Had they used binoculars or a telescope they might have reduced
the background glow enough (by narrowing the field of view) to
make the fires appear. But, so far as we know, binoculars were
not used.








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                         Re: New Orb Images - Shell

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:16:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:44:57 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Shell


>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:39:59 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:35:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

><snip>

>>Perhaps my time working in a commercial photo lab, and my years
>>of taking photographs have made me cynical, but I see nothing on
>>the referenced site which appears to be anything more than what
>>most would call a bad photo... marred by dust, smoke, etc. They
>>are all easily reproducible, and predictably irreproducible
>>under non-ideal conditions.

>Well said. I looked at the site and laughed a lot.


Hi Bob,

The C2C web site has at this moment a photo on its main page. It
is an outdoor shot of a cat. The image contains two odd bright
spots of light. The photographer relates that they are perhaps
ghosts of old family members.

On closer inspection, it is obvious that the points of light are
reflections of the cat's eyes, made visible by a dirty lens. The
light spots can easily be copied and superimposed over the cat's
eyes to see the perfect match once they are reduced in scale.
Also, the angle of the reflections are to the right and below
the cat's eyes in the frame, just as the camera's flash is above
and to the left of the eyes, unless this is a very odd camera.
If the cat's eyes were to reflect back into the camera, this is
just the place one would expect to see them.

The lens fog... skin oil, dust, whatever... diffuses the light
reflections and in fact is evident in several other areas of the
image. This is commonly done intentionally when a subject has
wrinkles or other blemishes. The camera is fitted with a
diffusion filter to mask the harsh lines and blur tiny details.
Look for any TV commercial featuring Joan Collins...  :) Since
the cited image is only diffused in a few areas, I suspect the
oil or dirt as the cause, rather than a filter, but the effect
is the same.

Cameras do not see what the eye sees. Photographers grapple with
this fact every time they shoot photos. It is one reason why
fashion photographers shoot hundreds of shots to find one good
one. Too many variables, and too many annoying artifacts to be
sure of a single shot.

The folks out there trying to get orb shots should contact a
photographer for his "rejects". He would likely give them away
for free.

One man's trash is another's supernatural, intelligently
controlled, inter-dimensional entity... or in your case, cause
for a good laugh.


Greetings,

Kyle








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                  Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:32:24 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:46:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Miller


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:43:50 +0100
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:48:15 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: Magonia - The Truth Is There [Was: New Mexico Governor...]

>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:07:52 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>Would you please provide an example of anywhere in Magonia -
>>>or anywhere in my book "The Evidence for Alien Abductions",
>>>where I have said that abductees are "mad" or "should not be
>>>allowed out unaccompanied", or anything like that? Or indeed
>>>any other examples of regular insult and abuse.

>>Certainly John;

>>>From Magonia 83, December 2003:

<snip>

>>The Pelican has asked similar questions before, but it seems
>>he needs to keep on asking: Can a person who writes something
>>like the above paragraph, and who is presumably not joking, be
>>sane? The Pelican's answer must be No, otherwise the concept
>>of insanity loses its meaning. The thing to be done,
>>therefore, is to urge people like Jacobs, Hopkins and others
>>to seek the appropriate treatments for their condition. They
>>are unlikely to listen, of course, so their pernicious
>>practices, such as conducting hypnotic regressions while
>>asking leading questions about disgusting grey aliens, should
>>be actively denounced and discouraged, and their writings
>>should be given the critical scrutiny which will expose them
>>as the irrational nonsense that they are.

>Yes, and The Pelican stands by every word of the above. This
>is not insult or abuse, but plain speaking. This practice of
>tinkering with persons' minds by unqualified amateurs obsessed
>with mad theories about grey aliens is deplorable behaviour
>and responsible people should miss no opportunity to say so.

Firstly, you might remember how this particular branch of this
thread began. It was in response to to John R denying that he'd
ever been abusive about people in Magonia.

The semantics that you employ - "It was me guv, it wasn't him"
and the lame excuse that it is all fair comment were rather
tiresomely expected.

Lets start with this "unqualified amateur" slur. Hopkins may
well have been unqualified when he first sat down with an
abductee. After more than 700 sessions with abductees since,
then as a former counsellor myself I can tell you he is now
qualified. Very, very adequately. He may not have letters after
his name, which of course is the sort of status grinding badge
that superficial gadflys insist on, but he is much better
qualified by a very long way to sit down with an abductee than a
qualified psychiatrist new to the field would be.

But I am puzzled. You seem able, from more than 3,000 miles
away, to apparently confidently make statements not only about
Hopkins' and Jacobs' professional abilities, but also,
seemingly, about their mental states as well. Congratulations
John. You must be the first holder of a new doctorate or degree
that the rest of us have never heard of before, and one which
would normally have resulted in immediate professional
disbarment or censure under "the old way". I am referring to the
practise of making a diagnosis about a "patient" without ever
having had a consultation with them. Pray tell, which esteemed
college awarded you this degree? The same one that awarded Dr.
Ian Paisley his Doctorate in theology perhaps?

<snip>

>>So it seems we can indulge in any sort of fantastic
>speculation apart from the obvious one that Wilson was
>>suffering from one of her mental fugues which caused her to
>>lose an hour by wandering around aimlessly. This story will
>>cause more sensible readers to wonder, not about "changeable
>>human energy field" (whatever that might be), but
>>whether Wilson is fit to be allowed out on her own.

>Wouldn't any sensible and responsible person agree that
>concern for Katharina Wilson's mental health is a rather more
>constructive attitude than apparently taking her story as
>being  a true account of objectively real events?

See previous above answer. I keep trying to push the word
"arrogant" out of my brain in relation to you, but it keeps
popping back in. What in god's name do you know about it? How
are you qualified to offer such an opinion? What's your
experience in the field, pray tell.

>>Meanwhile, in the UK, we have our ETHers and other nutters.
>>There are the entertainers, who write silly books and give
>>sillier lectures, illustrated with fuzzy video clips. There
>are the mentally unbalanced and the purveyors of numerous
>>cranky theories, each of which purports to explain nearly
>>all UFO reports. Then there are a few who take a practical,
>>pragmatic view of UFO stories and simply try to establish
>>the facts of each case, wherever this is possible. They know
>>who they can trust, and who they should avoid in helping with
>>their investigations, or they quickly find out.

>Yes, most ufologists are a bit soft in the head. Perhaps it's
>unkind to mention it but it's just one of the facts of life.

Sounds like you're on the back foot here a bit John. If you just
want to get plain abusive and resort to the sort of level I
usually drop down to and which I am very good at, then by all
means. But we'll bore the rest of the List even more than we're
doing now.

>>It is, by your now own >admission, a game, wherebye you creep
>>into the lions den,>raffishly tug his tail, and then run away
>>squealing in  childish glee, back to your similarly childish
>>friends. It's boring and you must realise that you aren't
>>taken seriously here any
>>longer.

>Yes, perhaps all those who like to engage in critical
>examination of UFO reports and theories should un-subscribe
>from this List, leaving it to the believers to indulge in the
>kinds of discussions which would not upset Pollyanna or Anne of
>Green Gables.

I see absolutely no evidence of what you describe on this List
whatsoever. What I do experience are cases critically examined
in detail and an honest acknowledgement of doubt when it occurs.
Why, even the good Captain who has attempted to debunk the most
interesting case for ages has been met with respect,
congratulations and civility.

Time to change the glasses John. Put the rose coloured tinted
ones down and try some with a clear pair of lenses in them.


Stuart Miller








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   Sep > Sep 18

               Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 17:40:44 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:02:21 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - Hall


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 01:28:01 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)

>>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:09:00 +1000
>>Subject: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)

>>UFO News 17th September 2004 (Australia)

>>A report on the activities of UFO Research Queensland Inc.
>>Brisbane, Australia. www.uforq.asn.au

>>"In the end, the abduction phenomenon seems to be a part of the
>>shift in consciousness that is collapsing duality and enabling
>>us to see that we are connected beyond the Earth at a cosmic
>>level." - Dr John Mack

>Hello Sheryl:

>If the quote above were anonymous, I would instantly kiss it off
>as meaningless new-age mind mush.

>Since the good doctor is credited, and with some regrets, I have
>to call it meaningless new-age Mack-mush.

Larry,

I had exactly the same reaction. It's the same sort of
meaningless New Age jargon that put me off badly when I read his
first book. Study of abduction cases didn't lead him to this
mind-mush; he was already there.  He apparently always has been
an advocate of anti-Western, pro-Eastern mystical philosophy and
navel-gazing.  His pre-existing mindset led him to interpret
abduction reports in terms of Cosmic B.S.


 - Dick










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                          Re: New Orb Images - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:49:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:04:15 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - King


>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 09:21:09 +1000
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:35:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:28:36 +1000
>>>Subject: New Orb Images

>><snip>

>>Perhaps my time working in a commercial photo lab, and my years
>>of taking photographs have made me cynical, but I see nothing on
>>the referenced site which appears to be anything more than what
>>most would call a bad photo...marred by dust, smoke, etc. They
>>are all easily reproducible, and predictably irreproducible
>>under non- ideal conditions.

>>Is any serious student of UFO-related anomalies actually
>>studying the subject of orbs? From any kind of scientific
>>perspective? The "enhancement" images on the site do not
>>qualify, IMHO. Like the previously noted "Hungarian UFO",
>>enhancing distortion or noise simply makes the noise louder.
>>Not at all revelatory, but wholly obfuscatory.

>If you would like to put your "... time working in a commercial
>photo lab, and your years of taking photographs... " experience
>to practical use, then I offer you a page on my web site where
>you can present your case and display your duplicated fake Orb
>photos that we can use as comparisons to the real ones.

>If you want to contribute practical research to this subject,
>here is your chance. "Put your money where your mouth is", as
>the saying goes. Produce your bad photo...marred by dust, smoke,
>etc. If, as you say, "..are all easily reproducible, and
>predictably irreproducible under non- ideal conditions". You
>should have no problems with this. Then we can gauge who is most
>"vociferous". (as you would say) That's not too obfuscatory for
>you is it?


Hi Barry,

As it happens, I am photographing a middle eastern dance show
this very evening. While the "mists" will be unlikely since
smoking is not allowed, I feel the vibrations are good for some
orb-viewing.

I shall cull through the results and pass along any I find of
interest. If I don't find that luck has shone on me, I will
resort to the garage... I have a billion orbs living out there.
I really expect to get a shot of at least one free range orb
tonight, however.

If I may ask, what is it that makes you feel that orbs are
anything but what I describe? Do they talk to you? Respond to
commands?

In other words, if I produce images as you request, why wouldn't
you simply state that I had recorded a real orb? I ask because
you mention "real ones". Please explain what you mean by "real
ones".

Hopeful,

Kyle








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                  Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:53:51 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:06:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Miller


>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:01:10 +0100
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:48:15 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: Magonia - The Truth Is There [Was: New Mexico Governor...]

>>>Would you please provide an example of anywhere in Magonia -
>>>or anywhere in my book "The Evidence for Alien Abductions",
>>>where I have said that abductees are "mad" or "should not be
>>>allowed out unaccompanied", or anything like that? Or indeed
>>>any other examples of regular insult and abuse.

<snip>

>However, there is one important thing: apart from the comment
>about the unfortunate lady in the washroom at Chicago airport
>-  OK, I put my hands up for that, you've got me bang to
>rights and were spot on with the quote - all the Pelican's
>comments were about UFO abduction _investigators_, not
>abductees. And that is an important difference.

Read the last line of what you originally said again. I take
that to be a general proclamation, not a restricted one, as
you're suggesting above.

The detail John though is irrelevant. You are consistently rude
about those on "the other side" in a manner which I rarely find
elsewhere. Fine, if that's how you want to be, but don't be so
blind and indeed naive about what appears in your own
publication. And lets face it, describing someone as Simpsonic
or subscribing to the DOH hypothesis somehow doesn't seem as
generally unpleasant as some of the stuff that appears in
Magonia.

>>It's boring and you must realise that you aren't taken
>>seriously here any longer.

>That, as Mr Lehmberg would say, is not for you to call.

Mr. L's opinion aside - (you still alive down there in Alabama
Alfred? I was perhaps ill-advised to say that. Stay, please do.
I shall refrain from saying any more on this as Jerry seems
quite happy to fence point with you, so who am I to complain?


Stuart Miller








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   Sep > Sep 18

                    Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:57:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:07:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Harney


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:44:02 -0500
>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:09:56 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting [was New Mexico Governor]

>>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:25:11 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>As pelicanists won't tell you, there was a fully conscious,
>>knowledgeable observer who, an hour before, witnessed what may
>>well have been the same object. It didn't look like a meteor. As
>>I write in my book, "On August 10 [1948] the officer in charge
>>of the Sixth District Office of Special Investigations ...
>>interviewed Walter Massey, a ground-maintenance crewman
>>stationed at Robins Air Force Base in Georgia. Massey related
>>that two hours prior to the Chiles-Whitted sighting [which

>Careful readers will have caught the contradiction here. Did
>Massey's sighting take place one hour or two hours before
>Chiles-Whitted's? I'm afraid I have it both ways here.

>When writing the above, I was consulting several sources - one
>my book, the rest other accounts of the incident. Most of those,
>I am chagrined to learn, say the Massey observation occurred an
>hour before.

>I may have been in error in my own published account.

This illustrates a common problem in trying to evaluate UFO
reports. Witnesses make the reports, usually giving the time,
but often not making it clear whether the time is the local time
(as defined by an officially recognised time zone, sometimes
advanced one hour for "summer time"), or GMT (Greenwich Mean
Time, also referred to as Universal Time or Zulu Time).

Obviously in this case the time of the Chiles-Whitted sighting
is not GMT. This sighting was in Alabama and Walter Massey's
sighting was in Georgia. However, this does not help to resolve
the problem, as both states are in the same time zone (Eastern
Standard), which would presumably have had the Summer Time hour
added on.

Ideally the times of UFO reports would all be recorded in GMT
together with date, latitude and longitude. It would then be
easy - assuming the reports were stored in a computer data base
- to calculate the local apparent time, from which relevant
astronomical information could be calculated.


John Harney








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              Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Groff

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:02:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:55:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Groff


>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:55:37 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:10:27 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>>From: Capt. Alejandro Franz <alfafox.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:12:57 -0700
>>>Subject: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>>Mexican Air Force FLIR's video lights are not UFOs they are
>>>oil well gas flames!

>>>http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/REFERENCE_DATA.html

>>>My own video recording showing I was right.

>>This whole question of how gas-flames from 80 miles distance
>>could show up so strongly on the FLIR equipment while remaining
>>invisible to the naked eye sure has me puzzled

>This is an oft-repeated question which can be answered by the
>narrow field of view of the FLIR video camera being far superior
>to the wide field of view of the human eye. If they had had
>binoculars or a telescopic sight to view them (and a steady
>hand!) then they would have seen them without the FLIR.

Capt. Franz has stated that he could see the oil well flares
quite easily without the use of binoculars or telescopic sight
and from 30,000 ft., 19,000 ft. higher then the airforce crew.

This again brings to question why the crew could not see them
even though I'm sure they were trained well enough to look out
of the window.


Terry








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                          Re: New Orb Images - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:26:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:56:57 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - King


>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 09:54:43 +1000
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:04:58 -0700
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:28:36 +1000
>>>Subject: New Orb Images

>>>Some people more then others seem to have the ability to
>>>photograph Orbs in a variety of locations and situations. One
>>>gentleman and his female friend in the UK are two people that
>>>have found that they are able to photograph some unusual
>>>phenomena inside and outside their homes. This page is dedicated
>>>to just some of the unusual photos they have taken over the last
>>>two years.

>>>http://theozfactor.nucleardays.com/spirit13.htm

>>Putting on my skepti-bunker hat for a moment. All they look like
>>to me is dust or water particles blurred out of focus.

>>I would be a lot more convinced if these people could get a 3-D
>>camera or two identical and synchronized cameras and get a
>>stereo pair showing these "orbs". Then we might be able to get a
>>decent approximation of distance so we could tell if it's dust
>>out of focus or some larger structured phenomenon.

>I wish all skeptibunker comments were as sensible as yours. I
>fully understand your view on this and appreciate your 3-D
>camera suggestion.

>These people taking the UK Orb photos are using controlled
>procedures as best they can under normal environmental
>conditions. They do not deliberatly try to fake these images.
>They inform me they take hundreds of photos to get just a few
>with Orbs, and have discarded many that they considered may not
>be the real thing. They are most critical of their own work.

>We have been debating the dust, lint and water droplet out of
>focus issue for the last few weeks with researcher producing a
>'Paper' on the subject of Orbs. You will become aware of this in
>time.

>I have just purchased a 3-D camera and will begin my own
>attempts to photograph Orbs. This seems to be the most
>convincing type of evidence to produce. Will be interesting to
>see what flaws will be found in this by some. I have no doubt
>the Orb Phenomena is real, we just need better and unique
>evidence to display this fact.


Hi Barry,

Here we go again with the labels. If I am debunking orbs, please
fill me in on just what I am debunking. What are orbs if not
what they most appear to be? What evidence exists to suggest
that they are anything but dust, etc.?

I see a tree move outside... I say an invisible hand moved it,
and the guy next to me says no silly... it's the wind. I say
prove it. What is my friend left with? Prove the wind moved the
tree and not an invisible hand? He will most likely just laugh.
I'm not laughing at you. I am attempting to explain that
photographic flaws can look very odd, but that that doesn't make
them extraordinary. My friend may point to dozens of other trees
and say, "See, they're moving. Are those all invisible hands?".
I say, no, not all of them, but that first one was an invisible
hand... I have no doubt. No "skeptibunker" is going to waste a
moment on such drivel. I am however not a skeptibunker...

I would be much less harsh in my appraisal if orbs were stated
as something specific. Otherwise, all I am left with is personal
experience, which is often cited as good evidence in this forum.

You say you have no doubt that orbs are real... in fact you lend
them some kind of faux credibility by capitalizing the term.
Simple questions...  what are orbs if they are not dust, etc.?
What is your hypothesis? What is the basis for your lack of
doubt? Why do the photographers cull out those that they do not
find good? Are some orbs dust, and others not? What
distinguishes them? What makes a good orb shot? And what
qualifies a person to make such a judgement?


Utterly confused,

Kyle








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   Sep > Sep 18

                          Re: New Orb Images - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:39:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:58:26 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - King


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:06:58 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>May I suggest you visit:

>http://brumac.8k.com/orb1.html

>Maybe you will find what you are... or are not.... looking for.


Dr. Maccabee,

Well, shut my mouth! Thank you for jumping in. While I
admittedly was asking a rhetorical question about orb
investigation, I am pleased to find that the subject has been
looked at scientifically.

Your very generous report explains in geometry and physics
exactly what my photographic experience explained to me long
ago.

I share you position that there are indeed photos that defy easy
identification, but it is at best premature to count orb images
among them.


Thank you!

Kyle









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                     Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:34:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:00:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Clark


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:23:12 +0100
>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:09:56 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting [was New Mexico Governor]

>>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:25:11 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:37:01 +0100
>>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell


Hi, Christopher,

>>This whole discussion began when one of the Johns (I no longer
>>recall which) declared as if it were an established fact that
>>the CW sighting had been conclusively explained as a meteor. As
>>I have shown, that is far from the case. It is no more than a
>>hypothesis which at this late date is essentially unfalsifiable
>>-- which is no mere happenstance; it's exactly how pelicanists
>>like it. As Brad Sparks has cogently remarked, we shouldn't even
>>be discussing this case. Nothing (if ever it could) can be
>>established with anything close to certainty. The sanest course
>>surely is to acknowledge as much - God, it seems obvious enough
>>-- and move on.

>>In the meantime, CW's sighting recedes ever deeper into history,
>>eclipsed by many other reports which more compellingly make the
>>case for anomalous UFOs. The case for UFOs neither stands nor
>>falls on the CW incident, whose interest to 21st-Century ufology
>>is more historical than evidential. At least, however, we can do
>>it the courtesy, when the subject comes up, of thinking clearly
>>about it and not pretending to certainties that probably will
>>forever elude us.

>I have merely stated what is acceptable to me in this case, and
>Hartmann's analysis is just that.

It is, in short, your personal belief statement. To that, of
course, you are perfectly entitled.

If only you had said to start with - without implying that those
who might disagree have some serious problem (such as being
dreaded "ETHers"), or insinuating that Hartmann's interpretation
is more compelling than it really is (or surely ever can be by
the nature of the question it addresses) - I would not have
responded. At least you afforded me an opportunity to provide an
overview of the CW sighting's meaning, including its large role
in early UFO history and the limitations of alternative, prosaic
speculations, coupled with an observation or two about the
case's diminished significance as evidence over time.

Though I remain unconvinced by the meteor explanation, I cannot
disprove it any more than you can prove it. It's doubtful that
any discussion of the case can move beyond that sort of
stalemate, which arises from what might be characterized as
argument from context (or, for that matter, from conflicting
sense of the possible).

>Of course the case for UFOs does not stand or fall on the C-W
>case. I do expect, however, that quite a few ufologists would
>still list it as one of their top ten.

You just made that up, didn't you?

>There are people who say the C-W case ranks of high importance
>since it instigated the (in)famous "Estimate of the Situation"
>in August 1948, and we all know its top secret conclusions, and
>how Vandenberg destroyed it, don't we[,] Jerry?

Please reread the words from my previous post above. There I
stated that CW's sighting looms larger in history than in
lasting evidence. What you've just written was - obviously -
precisely what I was alluding to. My point was that things
looked different in the early days of the UFO controversy, when
the phenomenon was new and the pool of sightings not very deep,
from the way they would look later when more compelling and
evidential reports emerged.

>Any chance of a rediscussion on Adamski or Van Tassell [sic],
>Jerry?

Actually, Christopher, it's Van Tassel, unless you're referring
to somebody unfamiliar to me, albeit with a name very much like
that of the fabled California contactee. In fact, I'm happy to
discuss early contactees at any time. As you may not be aware,
I have written about them at length (a forthcoming university-
 press book contains a long paper of mine on '50s contactee
Dorothy Martin, of When Prophecy Fails infamy), though never in
the same breath as Chiles- Whitted or other credible witnesses
to what may be genuine unknowns.

Beyond that, I am at a loss to grasp your point, I confess. But
perhaps it takes a pelicanist to fly the distance between
Chiles-Whitted and Adamski/ Van Tassel as if the trajectory were
so logical as to require no explanation. Unless, of course,
you're making a feeble effort to ridicule by association, and I
am certain that you are far too noble to attempt anything so
clumsy and embarrassingly transparent.

Therefore, being an unimaginative, earthbound soul who prefers
to stick to the point, I think I'll stay where I am and try to
refrain from what I am wont to do in the presence of
pelicanists: scratch my head in bafflement.


Jerry Clark








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   Sep > Sep 18

                     Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:36:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:02:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:57:17 +0100
>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:44:02 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:09:56 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting [was New Mexico Governor]

>>>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:25:11 +0100
>>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>This illustrates a common problem in trying to evaluate UFO
>>reports. Witnesses make the reports, usually giving the time,
>>(as defined by an officially recognised time zone, sometimes
>>advanced one hour for "summer time"), or GMT (Greenwich Mean
>>Time, also referred to as Universal Time or Zulu Time).

>Ideally the times of UFO reports would all be recorded in GMT
>together with date, latitude and longitude. It would then be
>easy - assuming the reports were stored in a computer data base
>- to calculate the local apparent time, from which relevant
>astronomical information could be calculated.

I am happy to agree entirely with John on this important point.

Jerry Clark











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                  Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:42:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:06:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Sandow


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:32:24 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:43:50 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>>The Pelican has asked similar questions before, but it seems he needs
>>>to keep on asking: Can a person who writes something like the above
>>>paragraph, and who is presumably not joking, be sane? The Pelican's
>>>answer must be No, otherwise the concept of insanity loses its
>>>meaning. The thing to be done, therefore, is to urge people like
>>>Jacobs, Hopkins and others to seek the appropriate treatments for
>>>their condition. They are unlikely to listen, of course, so their
>>>pernicious practices, such as conducting hypnotic regressions while
>>>asking leading questions about disgusting grey aliens, should be
>>>actively denounced and discouraged, and their writings
>should be given
>>>the critical scrutiny which will expose them as the irrational
>>>nonsense that they are.

>>Yes, and The Pelican stands by every word of the above. This is not
>>insult or abuse, but plain speaking. This practice of tinkering with
>>persons' minds by unqualified amateurs obsessed with mad theories about
>>grey aliens is deplorable behaviour and responsible people should miss
>>no opportunity to say so.

>Lets start with this "unqualified amateur" slur. Hopkins may
>well have been unqualified when he first sat down with an
>abductee. After more than 700 sessions with abductees since,
>then as a former counsellor myself I can tell you he is now
>qualified. Very, very adequately. He may not have letters
>after his name, which of course is the sort of status
>grinding badge that superficial gadflys insist on, but he is
>much better qualified by a very long way to sit down with an
>abductee than a qualified psychiatrist new to the field would be.

Let's remember something John Harney either never knew, has
forgotten, or has chosen to ignore. When Budd Hopkins started
working with abductees, he himself never hypnotized them. That
work was done by credentialed psychologists, who then taught
Budd to do it, and of course observed him doing it after he was
taught. They believed Budd was qualified. John Harney may wonder
if they're right, but he's only speculating. He certainly wasn't
there.

Later in Budd's abduction career, he was closely observed
(during his work on the "Witnessed" case) by two highly
professional psychotherapists, one of whom has been awarded the
Macarthur Prize, one of America's highest intellectual honors.
I've spoken to both these people. Neither agrees with Budd's
conclusions - neither believes that aliens (little, grey, or
otherwise) are abducting people. But both told me that they
admire Budd's methodology, and find it highly professional. I
published this in my IUR study of the "Witnessed" case, so it's
part of the abduction record.

And then there's this: No mental health professional who's
worked with Budd Hopkins, David Jacobs, or the abductees they've
worked with has ever concluded that these abductees have had
their minds "tinkered with." Nor has anyone qualified to examine
the abductees - and who has actually examined them, or given
them psychological tests - concluded that, as a group, they show
any significant psychopathology. Moreover, as I've observed
myself, the abductees themselves are far more independent of
Hopkins or Jacobs than John Harney might imagine. The only
people making the kind of assertions Harney makes are people
with no first-hand knowledge of what's going on - people
(including some professional psychologists, who should know
better) who have never examined abductees, and never looked
directly at the actual work abduction researchers do.

I don't know whether aliens are abducting anyone. I've also
found fault with some aspects of Budd's (and Dave Jacobs's)
work, as anyone knows who's read my 1997 study of the
"Witnessed" case in IUR, or my essay "The Abduction Conundrum",
published in Dennis Stacy's publication, The Anomalist. But
after reading John Harney's latest - and, of course, much else
that he's posted here over the years - I'm happy to borrow the
kind of language he himself loves to use, and label him an
arrogant, despicable buffoon.


Greg Sandow









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   Sep > Sep 19

                 Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale -

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:56:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:01:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale -


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:15:34 -0400
>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:10:27 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul, "- UFO UpDates
>>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:42:59 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

><snip>

>>>During one section of the video, the most notable objects were>
>>>in a doubled triplet formation, pacing the airplane off the port
>>>side, and are seen to have passed _in_front of_ a nearby cloud
>>>top, then pass _behind_* an even closer cloud-top fragment,
>>>then emerge.

>Actually this is debatable. It could be that the cloud is thin
>enough to allow infrared through. The brightnesses of the lights
>changes in a manner expected if they were coming through cloud
>and then get brighter as the sighting line exits the cloud area.

Was this a true, photometrically measured increase in
brightness, or just an apparent increase that could be
associated with the much lesser contrast between object and
cloud when "in front of" the cloud than when contrasted with the
colder background "sky"?

>Note that I said "sighting line"and not objects.

>It is likely that the objects were much farther away than the
>clouds and the motion past clouds is an illusion. ...

How does this possibility account for the objects having been
noticeable through the extensive cloud top but then have been
totally obscured for a few seconds when behind the still closer
cloud-top fragment - but obscured only when behind the latter?

Jim Deardorff








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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:00:20 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:08:33 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:33:13 +0200
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:47:46 -0700
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:48:16 +0200
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>>>I am interested in the search of the truth, whatever it turns
>>>out to be, and I am sure I'm not alone. Have you passed your
>>>findings to people like David Rudiak, Bob Durant, Mark
>>>Rodeghier, Bruce Maccabee, Wendy Connors?

<snip>

>>It's not that I don't want to hear what Brad has to say. It's
>>that he won't tell me anything, even though I've asked in
>>private email. All he tells me is that I'm blinded to the truth
>>by pro-ET bias, I and others have it all wrong, drops an
>>occasional hint as to what he has, but never spells it out.

>>I find this enormously frustrating. It's like the guy at the
>>poker table saying he's got everybody beat with a royal flush,
>>but refuses to show his hand. Nobody is going to pay up until
>>they see what he's got. This has nothing to do with biases or
>>agendas.

>>I'm sure Brad could write a 2 or 3 paragraph synopsis of what
>>his theory is and what evidence he has to back it. Then there
>>would be something concrete to discuss. I have no problems if
>>he doesn't want to carry on a public discussion of it. I just
>>want to know what he has.

<snip>

>David

>Thank you for clarifying this new twist in the Roswell debate.
>The argument of Brad Sparks is just unacceptable. He must show
>"his cards", or shut-up.

>Gildas

Gildas I will not "shut-up" and you have no right to tell me
that! What an obnoxious attitude! You have no damn right to tell
me to give you hundreds of pages of book manuscript material in
various stages of editing, requiring major revisions because of
new findings I have not had time to incorporate. Nor do you have
the right to tell me to condense it into a post to UFO UpDates,
minus all the scholarly documentation and argument that would be
in a book. It just happens not to condense very well - and I
have made many efforts attempting to do so.

As for David, your request was on my Ramey Message findings, not
on my findings of a, top secret, Roswell policy by the AAF/AF
and other Roswell research in general. This is still a
discussion, off-line, in progress, or to be continued.

Lastly, I posted quite a bit of my analysis on UFO UpDates about
3 years ago, when it was in its development stage. That is what
I am referring to as the pro-UFO and anti-UFO camps having icey
dis-interest in my findings - typically the only 'interest' was
of the arrogant setup type "put up or shut up" like Gildas
displayed. The setup is really a politician's type of argument
to an opponent, where you know they really aren't truly
interested in the other candidate's position. It's just a setup
argument so they can say the other guy couldn't prove his case.
Debunkers do that kind of unscientific partisan sniping all the
time. Now we can see a pro-UFO pro-ETHer doing here to me.

And while on the subject of over-looked posts, Gildas, you
forgot or missed my posts agreeing with you that the Foster
Ranch debris could not be from a MOGUL balloon array,
particularly Flight 4. Your research was very convincing and I
added a lot of new argument to it which you have totally
ignored.

I do not have time for this B.S. game-playing. I have many
time-consuming obligations and occasionally a window of time
opens up a little to respond to some of these discussions. But I
certainly have no time now, to revise my book manuscript. I had
more time available a few years ago but didn't get any real
support or encouragement, just s--t from skeptics and
Roswellians alike, or the icy cold "yeah that's <yawn>
interesting - not."


Brad Sparks








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                         Re: New Orb Images - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 16:37:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:15:43 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - White


>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 09:54:43 +1000
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>I have just purchased a 3-D camera and will begin my own
>attempts to photograph Orbs. This seems to be the most
>convincing type of evidence to produce. Will be interesting to
>see what flaws will be found in this by some. I have no doubt
>the Orb Phenomena is real, we just need better and unique
>evidence to display this fact.

I've head orb photographers/researchers say that a really good
place to catch orbs is outside a hospital. A really good time is
just as a well defined rain front is arriving.


Eleanor White








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                         Re: New Orb Images - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 17:06:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:17:06 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - White


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:49:58 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>We do not argue. Perhaps the more pertinent point is that I look
>at such a video and see dust motes and wispy smoke made vividly
>noticeable by bright light and sensitive film/CCD. Others see
>what they see and interpret it as they see fit. Perhaps you
>should explain what you mean when you say "orb". When I say orb,
>I mean a dust mote or other object or smoke wisp made
>artificially bright and large by lighting or the sun reflecting
>back into the lens of the camera.

The orb videos taken by Steve A. Lee of Colorado are so
obviously not any of the lens or environmental aberrations
proposed that anyone seeing them doesn't feel a need to defend
them. The moving orbs were lit by the normal camera mounted
lighting used for nighttime recording.

The moving orbs kind of bounced up and down as a light attached
to the head of someone walking would. The forward speed and
cadence really suggested someone walking. The orb position was
out of doors, well above the ground.

The brightness was perhaps like a 3-cell flashlight with fresh
batteries aimed directly at the camera. The image was spherical,
not just a bright point of light.

Beyond that, orbs have appeared on video above crop glyphs, also
seen by some witnesses.

>Orbs are visible to some people. I'm not sure what this means,
>other than perhaps you are stating that a person reporting to
>have seen one must have seen some kind of supernatural thing. I
>do not know how you can make such a statement in the absence of
>any evidence. If I'm not understanding correctly, I apologize
>and ask for clarification.

Bright spheres of light have been reported by many witnesses
under many different environments. Haunted places, crop glyphs,
certain geographical areas, even over Lake Ontario.

UFOs are reported to appear and disappear at will. It would seem
that orbs which do the same would be of interest to UFO
researchers.

>Your final comment is a strong endorsement of my thesis. A
>camcorder records an "orb" while a still camera very close by
>records nothing.

Well, when you are dealing with physics advanced well beyond
what college physics profs know about, that's not necessarily a
surprise. The sightings and photos continue.

>If orbs are a real phenomena, how is this possible? Are orbs
>able to decide what devices are capable of recording them?

Maybe, IMO. Experiments with some of the geography-specific orbs
result in their showing on some cameras and not others, or
showing on cameras but not being seen.

"Real" doesn't mean they have to obey contemporary college
physics laws. Phenomena which don't can still be quite real,
just their physics has yet to be discovered by the unclassified
world. Given the state of today's electronic harassment
technology, I have a feeling that the black project world
already has this level of physics. (I won't expand on that on
this forum.)


Eleanor White









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                         Re: New Orb Images - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 17:27:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:19:05 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Hebert


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:06:58 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:35:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>>Is any serious student of UFO-related anomalies actually
>>studying the subject of orbs? From any kind of scientific
>>perspective? The "enhancement" images on the site do not
>>qualify, IMHO. Like the previously noted "Hungarian UFO",
>>enhancing distortion or noise simply makes the noise louder.
>>Not at all revelatory, but wholly obfuscatory.

>May I suggest you visit:

>http://brumac.8k.com/orb1.html

>Maybe you will find what you are... or are not.... looking for.

Hi, Bruce:

Can you believe this stuff is still going around?!

Three studies (including your excellent work) and links to the
authors concerning alleged "orbs" can be found at:

http://ifo.s5.com

(Please excuse the pop-ups on this old freebie site, I will be
moving it to my new web site soon.)

I find "orb" images in all kinds of photographs I take and have
deliberately reproduced these "orb" images dozens of times by
photographing rain at night, snow falling, dust particles in the
air, etc. The kids and I have a good laugh every time we find
"orbs" in our various photographs (we are amateur photographers
going professional). But instead of spreading them on the
Internet as some kind of phenomena, we find better things to do
with our, and other people's, time.

Sincerely,

A. Hebert







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                  Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) -

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:43:45 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:20:38 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 01:28:01 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)

>>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:09:00 +1000
>>Subject: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)

>>UFO News 17th September 2004 (Australia)

>>A report on the activities of UFO Research Queensland Inc.
>>Brisbane, Australia. www.uforq.asn.au

>>"In the end, the abduction phenomenon seems to be a part of the
>>shift in consciousness that is collapsing duality and enabling
>>us to see that we are connected beyond the Earth at a cosmic
>>level." - Dr John Mack

>- - -

>Hello Sheryl:

>If the quote above were anonymous, I would instantly kiss it off
>as meaningless new-age mind mush.

>Since the good doctor is credited, and with some regrets, I have
>to call it meaningless new-age Mack-mush.


Hi Larry,

You know, sometimes when I am feeling cynical I say the same
thing but I just spent yesterday afternoon with a group of
people who have had close encounters and something is certainly
collapsing in their lives. They are on a journey into another
way of thinking, feeling and living that has got me curious.

I want to know what's going on.

Sheryl








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                               UFOs + ECHELON

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 16:49:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:30:06 -0400
Subject: UFOs + ECHELON


The tricky subject of UFOs has been raised in the European
Parliament for the first time since the Belgian "flying
triangle" flap a decade ago.

Given the hostile reception the topic received from British
politicians back in 1993-94, Italian MEP Sebastiano Musumeci
referred to "unexplained atmospheric phenomena" rather than UFOs
in his question to the Commission in March.

Musumeci said some reports of aerial phenomena remained
unexplained and continued to give rise to theories about alien
visitors, which he said were "so far lacking any foundation."

He wants a serious scientific study of phenomena such as the
mysterious lights seen for decades at Hessdalen in Norway to be
undertaken at a Europe-wide level, possibly by a responsible
body such as the European Space Agency.

But although Musumeci's request is a sensible and long overdue
one, it is unlikely that any politician who wanted to remain in
office would ever vote to spend public money researching a
subject like UFOs with its lunatic fringe connotations.

Nevertheless, his question prompted the newspaper, European
Voice, to devote a feature article on the many perplexing
sightings that were made in Belgium in 1989 and 1990, and the
subsequent attempts to get the topic taken seriously by the
European Commission.

One scientist who was involved in the 1994 debate told the paper
he found all attempts to discuss the subject seriously were
blocked by ridicule and added: "I was accused of asking for
money to do research into Father Christmas and things of this
kind."

---

European Parliment:

http://www.europarl.eu.int/home/default_en.htm

I couldn't find Musumeci's question to the Commission.


European Voice:

http://www.european-voice.com/


Temporary committee on the ECHELON interception system - July
2000- :

http://www.europarl.eu.int/committees/echelon_home.htm

-----

Terry W. Colvin







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                         Re: New Orb Images - Taylor

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:49:31 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:35:31 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Taylor


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:25:32 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:35:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

><snip>

>>Perhaps my time working in a commercial photo lab, and my years
>>of taking photographs have made me cynical, but I see nothing on
>>the referenced site which appears to be anything more than what
>>most would call a bad photo... marred by dust, smoke, etc. They
>>are all easily reproducible, and predictably irreproducible
>>under non-ideal conditions.

>Orbs are visible to some people. More than that, there have been
>camcorder clips of moving orbs and mists.

>Orbs show on video where adjacent photos show no such "defects".


Hi Eleanor,

Thanks for your informed comment. A couple of evenings ago, I
noticed a very fast moving illumination zap past me about 4 feet
away. After seeing it for the second time I got my digital still
camera and proceeded to shoot off 25 photos randomly around the
room while seated in the same position.

Nothing unusual showed on any of the photos except #18. Here a
round Orb is seen against a white door. This door was in several
other photos with no anomaly. So what does that tell you?

It tells me that this is a true mysterious phenomena that
deserves serious study. And this has not be done to date.


Barry Taylor









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                     Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:24:48 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:37:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Hatch


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:36:02 -0500
>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:57:17 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:44:02 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

<snip>

>>>This illustrates a common problem in trying to evaluate UFO
>>>reports. Witnesses make the reports, usually giving the time,
>>>(as defined by an officially recognised time zone, sometimes
>>>advanced one hour for "summer time"), or GMT (Greenwich Mean
>>>Time, also referred to as Universal Time or Zulu Time).

>>Ideally the times of UFO reports would all be recorded in GMT
>>together with date, latitude and longitude. It would then be
>>easy - assuming the reports were stored in a computer data base
>>- to calculate the local apparent time, from which relevant
>>astronomical information could be calculated.

>I am happy to agree entirely with John on this important point.

Please let me second (third?) that.

I am sick to death of UFOs that appear "right after dinner" and
which fly away "over Kelly's barn" as if clock, calender and the
North Pole were vague abstractions, designed by eggheads to
distract honest kids from the fish in the creek.


Best

- Larry








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             Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 00:04:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:39:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Maccabee


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:02:06 -0500
>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:55:37 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

<snip>

>>This is an oft-repeated question which can be answered by the
>>narrow field of view of the FLIR video camera being far superior
>>to the wide field of view of the human eye. If they had had
>>binoculars or a telescopic sight to view them (and a steady
>>hand!) then they would have seen them without the FLIR.>

>Capt. Franz has stated that he could see the oil well flares
>quite easily without the use of binoculars or telescopic sight
>and from 30,000 ft., 19,000 ft. higher then the airforce crew.

>this again brings to question why the crew could not see them >
>even though I'm sure they were trained well enough to look out
>of the window.

It is easy to see distant lights at night.
During th daytime the distant lights have to compete
with the airglow caused by sunlight. For example, we can't
see stars in the day time, even though they are there.








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                         Re: New Orb Images - Taylor

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:16:36 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:44:26 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Taylor


>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:39:59 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:35:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

><snip>

>>Perhaps my time working in a commercial photo lab, and my years
>>of taking photographs have made me cynical, but I see nothing on
>>the referenced site which appears to be anything more than what
>>most would call a bad photo... marred by dust, smoke, etc. They
>>are all easily reproducible, and predictably irreproducible
>>under non-ideal conditions.

>Well said. I looked at the site and laughed a lot.


Bob,

Pleased I was able to amuse you.

While you are in such a good mood, I would like to put your
expertise in photo analysis to good use. You have worked
for/with the CIA and called upon by the Court as expert photo
analyst to make professional judgement on photographic evidence
that presumably would influence decisions made by Judge and Jury
during prosecution of the accused.

Lets play out a small court room scenario. I am the accused. I
claim that the photo on Dr. Bruce Maccabee's web site at:

http://brumac.8k.com/orb3.html

(Photo added by Cornet for comparison being Orb tube photograph
taken by Byron Williams (Sargel 18), is a genuine Orb photo and
that the Orb was pulsing and left a motion trail as it very
rapidly moved just above ground away from the photographer
during the short open camera shutter of approx. 1/60th of a
second.

You are employed by the prosecution to examine this photo. If it
is found that I am wrong about this photo, then I am guilty and
given 10 years for fraud. If the Jury finds my claim true, then
I am entitled to compensation.

What is your verdict?


Barry Taylor








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                         Re: New Orb Images - Taylor

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:09:55 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:56:01 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Taylor


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:39:05 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:06:58 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

><snip>

>>May I suggest you visit:

>>http://brumac.8k.com/orb1.html

>>Maybe you will find what you are... or are not.... looking for.

>Dr. Maccabee,

>Well, shut my mouth! Thank you for jumping in. While I
>admittedly was asking a rhetorical question about orb
>investigation, I am pleased to find that the subject has been
>looked at scientifically.

>Your very generous report explains in geometry and physics
>exactly what my photographic experience explained to me long
>ago.

>I share you position that there are indeed photos that defy easy
>identification, but it is at best premature to count orb images
>among them.


Kyle,

Not much science analysis related to Orbs in Maccabee's Orb
'Paper'. Just an example of "how to fake Orbs photos".

It is like me throwing a hub cap into the air and photographing
that. Writing a scientific 'paper' on the UFO subject based on
this type of false image. Basically worthless to the
contribution of the real phenomena. Just adding a few
meaningless formulas, angles of degrees and exaggerated
observations does not make good science, even if I tell you it
does. The only real Orb photo at the end of the 'paper' is still
overlooked.

Maccabee's science 'paper' concludes with:

"Of course, I cannot state positively that every anomalous image
of the orb type considered here (not self-luminous so that
nothing was seen when the flash photo was taken and the image is
a small, "transparent" circle or disc or an elongated "tube")
was caused by a reflection of light from a tiny object close to
the camera. However, it seems to be a "good guess" that many or
most of them are."

"Good guess"? That sure is a positive scientific statement is it
not?

Nothing personal Bruce, as you know, but more serious work on
this subject is underway as we speak.


Barry Taylor










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                       Halifax Conference Tackles UFOs

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:00:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:00:08 -0400
Subject: Halifax Conference Tackles UFOs




Source: Broadcast News

http://www.canada.com/maritimes/news/story.html?id=50182988-f1af-449e-938d-7d5c7
6177f4d

09-19-04


Halifax Conference Tackles UFOs

HALIFAX -- UFO sightings are on the rise in Canada, and a group
gathered in Halifax is hoping to figure out why.

The Canadian Mutual UFO network held its first national
symposium on flying saucers yesterday.

But turnout was low at just 25 people for lectures on alien
encounters and space travel in what organizers hoped to make a
yearly event.

But speaker and ufologist Stanton Friedman says interest in UFOs
is actually quite high in Atlantic Canada it's just that most
people are afraid to admit they're a believer.

He says about one in 10 people who come to his lectures all over
North America say they've had an encounter with extra
terrestrials.

Annet Tol of Cornwall, P.E.I. is one of those people.

She says she came to the Halifax seminars to find out if what
she saw on a transatlantic flight five years ago was actually a
UFO.

Canadian UFO sightings were up 40 per cent last year, with 31
sightings in Atlantic Canada.


Copyright Broadcast News 2004







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               Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:51:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:06:41 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King


>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:43:45 +1000
>Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)

<snip>

>You know, sometimes when I am feeling cynical I say the same
>thing but I just spent yesterday afternoon with a group of
>people who have had close encounters and something is certainly
>collapsing in their lives. They are on a journey into another
>way of thinking, feeling and living that has got me curious.

>I want to know what's going on.


Sheryl,

Be very careful when applying your curiosity to such statements
and the people making them. History warns us... Heaven's Gate and
Jim Jones preyed on such curiosity and on people's sense of
"collapse". It didn't do much for the participants' way of
thinking, feeling... and of course... living.

Curiosity is not constructive when it is accompanied by an
inability to resist a charismatic message. For many who feel a
collapse in their lives, such a message can become an answer.
The answer... tragically... can be much worse than the collapse.


Regards,

Kyle







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                       Re: Some Co-Incidence - Freeman

From: Kelly Freeman <Khfflsciufo.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:04:34 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:24:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Some Co-Incidence - Freeman


>From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:12:29 +0100
>Subject: Some Co-Incidence

<snip>

>Mystery #1

>In 1726 a certain Jonathan Swift wrote: "They [the Laputians]
>have likewise discovered two lesser stars, or satellites, which
>revolve about Mars, whereof the innermost is distant from the
>center of the primary planet exactly three of its diameters, and
>the outermost five: the former revolves in the space of ten
>hours, and the latter in twenty-one and a half,..."

>That was 150 years before Deimos and Phobos were first
>spotted:

<snip>

>Weird - Swift "guessed" correct number of moons, correct
>(approx.) distances from Mars, correct (approx.) orbit periods
>and hence their correct masses/densities.

>Compounded by Phobos's mass/density being so 'strange' that some
>recent astronomers have suggested that it_might_have been
>hollow, even artificial.

<snip>

>So - Deimos and Phobos (+ weirdness) PLUS Pluto and Charon (+
>weirdness).

>How came those detailed predictions and attendant weirdness? Any
>ideas?

Hello Ray, EBK and List,

Perhaps it really wasn't just a matter of guessing, but just one
of those unexplained realities of unexplained science/knowledge
we have yet to understand/perceive. Or perhaps instead of cases
of coincidence, these mysteries are just instances of
synchronicity that lie beyond are current understanding?

It could very well be, that all knowledge of the cosmos, etc.
exists in the ether, or let's say, the nothingness of space, and
such coincidences are really a result of the brain/mind of these
individuals tapping into and translating the impressions
received from this vast store of hidden knowledge/information.

Just an idea, as you requested, that I thought I would throw
into the "fire" for discussion/debate. Repeat after
me... just_an_ idea. :)


Have a great day,

Kelly Freeman









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                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:03:19 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:26:38 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:00:20 EDT
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:33:13 +0200
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:47:46 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:48:16 +0200
>>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

><snip>

>>>>I am interested in the search of the truth, whatever it turns
>>>>out to be, and I am sure I'm not alone. Have you passed your
>>>>findings to people like David Rudiak, Bob Durant, Mark
>>>>Rodeghier, Bruce Maccabee, Wendy Connors?

><snip>

>>>It's not that I don't want to hear what Brad has to say. It's
>>>that he won't tell me anything, even though I've asked in
>>>private email. All he tells me is that I'm blinded to the truth
>>>by pro-ET bias, I and others have it all wrong, drops an
>>>occasional hint as to what he has, but never spells it out.

>>>I find this enormously frustrating. It's like the guy at the
>>>poker table saying he's got everybody beat with a royal flush,
>>>but refuses to show his hand. Nobody is going to pay up until
>>>they see what he's got. This has nothing to do with biases or
>>>agendas.

>>>I'm sure Brad could write a 2 or 3 paragraph synopsis of what
>>>his theory is and what evidence he has to back it. Then there
>>>would be something concrete to discuss. I have no problems if
>>>he doesn't want to carry on a public discussion of it. I just
>>>want to know what he has.

><snip>

>>Thank you for clarifying this new twist in the Roswell debate.
>>The argument of Brad Sparks is just unacceptable. He must show
>>"his cards", or shut-up.

>Gildas I will not "shut-up" and you have no right to tell me
>that! What an obnoxious attitude! You have no damn right to tell
>me to give you hundreds of pages of book manuscript material in
>various stages of editing, requiring major revisions because of
>new findings I have not had time to incorporate. Nor do you have
>the right to tell me to condense it into a post to UFO UpDates,
>minus all the scholarly documentation and argument that would be
>in a book. It just happens not to condense very well - and I
>have made many efforts attempting to do so.

Brad,

The trouble with your attitude is you announce publicly that all
researchers on Roswell, skeptics and "believers" alike, are
wrong, that you have enormous documentation proving that, but
that, since people don't seem to want want to know about it, you
are not going to say more for the time being. Maybe you will
publish a book later, if you find the time.

What you show here is a lot of arrogance.

Are we supposed to just wait and hopy that, someday, you will
condescend to reveal the 'Truth'?

Or course I don't ask you to publish hundreds of pages. One
reasonable answer, that you owe to us now, is to give a least a
general idea.


Gildas Bourdais








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                 Re: Halifax Conference Tackles UFOs - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:16:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:27:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Halifax Conference Tackles UFOs - King


>Source: Broadcast News

>http://www.canada.com/maritimes/news/story.html?id=50182988-f1af-4
>49e-938d-7d5c76177f4d

>09-19-04

>Halifax Conference Tackles UFOs

<snip>

>But speaker and ufologist Stanton Friedman says interest in UFOs
>is actually quite high in Atlantic Canada it's just that most
>people are afraid to admit they're a believer.

>He says about one in 10 people who come to his lectures all over
>North America say they've had an encounter with extra
>terrestrials.

<snip>

Question for Stan Friedman,

Stan, are these statements accurate? Have one in ten of your
attendees claimed to have had an encounter with
extraterrestrials?

I ask because you have posted in the past about a "show of
hands" informal survey where attendees indicate whether or not
they have seen a UFO. Unless I mis-read, this is quite different
than stating they indicated they had an encounter with
extraterrestrials.


Regards,

Kyle









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                     Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Allan

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:06:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:33:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Allan


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:34:18 -0500
>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:23:12 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

<snip>

>>I have merely stated what is acceptable to me in this case, and
>>Hartmann's analysis is just that.

>It is, in short, your personal belief statement. To that, of
>course, you are perfectly entitled.

>If only you had said to start with - without implying that those
>who might disagree have some serious problem (such as being
>dreaded "ETHers"), or insinuating that Hartmann's interpretation
>is more compelling than it really is (or surely ever can be by
>the nature of the question it addresses) - I would not have
>responded. At least you afforded me an opportunity to provide an
>overview of the CW sighting's meaning, including its large role
>in early UFO history and the limitations of alternative, prosaic
>speculations, coupled with an observation or two about the
>case's diminished significance as evidence over time.

>Though I remain unconvinced by the meteor explanation, I cannot
>disprove it any more than you can prove it. It's doubtful that
>any discussion of the case can move beyond that sort of
>stalemate, which arises from what might be characterized as
>argument from context (or, for that matter, from conflicting
>sense of the possible).

>>Of course the case for UFOs does not stand or fall on the C-W
>>case. I do expect, however, that quite a few ufologists would
>>still list it as one of their top ten.

>You just made that up, didn't you?

No I did not.

>>There are people who say the C-W case ranks of high importance
>>since it instigated the (in)famous "Estimate of the Situation"
>>in August 1948, and we all know its top secret conclusions, and
>>how Vandenberg destroyed it, don't we[,] Jerry?

>Please reread the words from my previous post above. There I
>stated that CW's sighting looms larger in history than in
>lasting evidence. What you've just written was - obviously -
>precisely what I was alluding to. My point was that things
>looked different in the early days of the UFO controversy, when
>the phenomenon was new and the pool of sightings not very deep,
>from the way they would look later when more compelling and
>evidential reports emerged.

>>Any chance of a rediscussion on Adamski or Van Tassell [sic],
>>Jerry?

>Actually, Christopher, it's Van Tassel, unless you're referring
>to somebody unfamiliar to me, albeit with a name very much like
>that of the fabled California contactee. In fact, I'm happy to
>discuss early contactees at any time. As you may not be aware,
>I have written about them at length (a forthcoming university-
>press book contains a long paper of mine on '50s contactee
>Dorothy Martin, of When Prophecy Fails infamy), though never in
>the same breath as Chiles- Whitted or other credible witnesses
>to what may be genuine unknowns.

>Beyond that, I am at a loss to grasp your point, I confess. But
>perhaps it takes a pelicanist to fly the distance between
>Chiles-Whitted and Adamski/ Van Tassel as if the trajectory were
>so logical as to require no explanation. Unless, of course,
>you're making a feeble effort to ridicule by association, and I
>am certain that you are far too noble to attempt anything so
>clumsy and embarrassingly transparent.

>Therefore, being an unimaginative, earthbound soul who prefers
>to stick to the point, I think I'll stay where I am and try to
>refrain from what I am wont to do in the presence of
>pelicanists: scratch my head in bafflement.


Jerry:

You wrote: "as Brad Sparks has cogently remarked, we shouldn't
even be discussing this case" (the C-W case).

My question, in effect, was: 'Why ever not?'
(This portion of my reply was excised).

I replied that any UFO case may be discussed if it turns out to
have sufficient interest to others. I agree the C-W case is old
hat now but may still be of interest. It was first raised by
someone else, not me.

I then rather frivolously suggested other cases that might (or
might not) be of interest. To be serious, no, I am not genuinely
interested in pursuing any of them, for the reasons I gave.

Hence my reference to Adamski & Van Tassel (l), as a joke.

Seriously though, Jerry: Neither you, Brad, nor anyone else has
the right to tell us which UFO cases we should or should not be
discussing in this forum.

And with that, I am closing [my portion of] this debate.

At least I hope so.


Christopher








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                  Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:48:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:38:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Harney


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:32:24 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:43:50 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:48:15 +0100 (BST)
>>>Subject: Magonia - The Truth Is There [Was: New Mexico Governor...]

>>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:07:52 +0100
>>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>But I am puzzled. You seem able, from more than 3,000 miles
>away, to apparently confidently make statements not only about
>Hopkins' and Jacobs' professional abilities, but also,
>seemingly, about their mental states as well. Congratulations
>John. You must be the first holder of a new doctorate or degree
>that the rest of us have never heard of before, and one which
>would normally have resulted in immediate professional
>disbarment or censure under "the old way". I am referring to the
>practise of making a diagnosis about a "patient" without ever
>having had a consultation with them. Pray tell, which esteemed
>college awarded you this degree? The same one that awarded Dr.
>Ian Paisley his Doctorate in theology perhaps?

I have to judge by what they actually write, and they write
utter nonsense about greys floating through walls to abduct
people, alien implants, etc.

>>>So it seems we can indulge in any sort of fantastic
>>speculation apart from the obvious one that Wilson was
>>>suffering from one of her mental fugues which caused her to
>>>lose an hour by wandering around aimlessly. This story will
>>>cause more sensible readers to wonder, not about "changeable
>>>human energy field" (whatever that might be), but
>>>whether Wilson is fit to be allowed out on her own.

>>Wouldn't any sensible and responsible person agree that
>>concern for Katharina Wilson's mental health is a rather more
>>constructive attitude than apparently taking her story as
>>being  a true account of objectively real events?

>See previous above answer. I keep trying to push the word
>"arrogant" out of my brain in relation to you, but it keeps
>popping back in. What in god's name do you know about it? How
>are you qualified to offer such an opinion? What's your
>experience in the field, pray tell.

OK, there are two possible explanations for Katharina Wilson
wandering around the airport for an hour and apparently having
weird experiences (1) she suffered some kind of mental
disturbance, as I suggested, or (2) she just made it up. I think
(1) is the most likely. If you can think of a better explanation
just say what it is.

>>Yes, most ufologists are a bit soft in the head. Perhaps it's
>>unkind to mention it but it's just one of the facts of life.

>Sounds like you're on the back foot here a bit John. If you just
>want to get plain abusive and resort to the sort of level I
>usually drop down to and which I am very good at, then by all
>means. But we'll bore the rest of the List even more than we're
>doing now.

I'm not being abusive - it's a self-evident fact and the main
reason why the subject is not taken seriously by mainstream
science.


John Harney








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                  Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:03:29 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:40:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Harney


>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:42:11 -0400
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

<snip>

>Later in Budd's abduction career, he was closely observed
>(during his work on the "Witnessed" case) by two highly
>professional psychotherapists, one of whom has been awarded the
>Macarthur Prize, one of America's highest intellectual honors.
>I've spoken to both these people. Neither agrees with Budd's
>conclusions - neither believes that aliens (little, grey, or
>otherwise) are abducting people. But both told me that they
>admire Budd's methodology, and find it highly professional. I
>published this in my IUR study of the "Witnessed" case, so it's
>part of the abduction record.

If these people don't believe Budd's nonsense about aliens
abducting people how can they describe his methodology as "highly
professional"? It doesn't make sense.

>And then there's this: No mental health professional who's
>worked with Budd Hopkins, David Jacobs, or the abductees they've
>worked with has ever concluded that these abductees have had
>their minds "tinkered with." Nor has anyone qualified to examine
>the abductees - and who has actually examined them, or given
>them psychological tests - concluded that, as a group, they show
>any significant psychopathology.

There is considerable disagreement concerning the question of if
or to what extent abductees differ psychologically from a
representative cross-section of the population.

<snip>

>But
>after reading John Harney's latest - and, of course, much else
>that he's posted here over the years - I'm happy to borrow the
>kind of language he himself loves to use, and label him an
>arrogant, despicable buffoon.

I'll make a note of that. Anyone who disagrees with your views
on UFOs and abductions is an "arrogant, despicable buffoon".


John Harney








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                          Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Pope

From: Nick Pope <nick.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:37:45 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:42:20 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Pope


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 16:49:19 -0700
>Subject: UFOs + ECHELON

>The tricky subject of UFOs has been raised in the European
>Parliament for the first time since the Belgian "flying
>triangle" flap a decade ago.

>Given the hostile reception the topic received from British
>politicians back in 1993-94, Italian MEP Sebastiano Musumeci
>referred to "unexplained atmospheric phenomena" rather than UFOs
>in his question to the Commission in March.

>Musumeci said some reports of aerial phenomena remained
>unexplained and continued to give rise to theories about alien
>visitors, which he said were "so far lacking any foundation."

<snip>

Terry,

If it helps, I previously posted some information about this,
including the text of Sebastiano Musumeci's question, the answer
he received, and the text of the article that appeared in
"European Voice":

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/mar/m25-014.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/mar/m27-017.shtml


Best wishes,

Nick Pope








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             Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:28:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:46:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale - Maccabee


>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:56:57 -0700
>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:15:34 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Mexican FLIR Video And Story On Sale

>>>>During one section of the video, the most notable objects were>
>>>>in a doubled triplet formation, pacing the airplane off the port
>>>>side, and are seen to have passed _in_front of_ a nearby cloud
>>>>top, then pass _behind_* an even closer cloud-top fragment,
>>>>then emerge.

>>Actually this is debatable. It could be that the cloud is thin
>>enough to allow infrared through. The brightnesses of the lights
>>changes in a manner expected if they were coming through cloud
>>and then get brighter as the sighting line exits the cloud area.

>Was this a true, photometrically measured increase in
>brightness, or just an apparent increase that could be
>associated with the much lesser contrast between object and
>cloud when "in front of" the cloud than when contrasted with
>the colder background "sky"?

You can bet I looked and looked for a provable situation in
which the lights were in front of a cloud. Unfortuntely, I could
find none. I would agree that there were a couple ambiguous
portions of the video which I initially thought were evidence of
the lghts being closer than a cloud. But then upon further study
I realized that I couldn't prove it because clouds are not
opaque when thin. A cloud can reflect sunlight and appear
"thick" while actually being quite "thin". On the other hand,
the dimming of the lights by intervening clouds occurred
numerous times and triangulation indicated distances to the
lights that were much greater than distances to the clouds.

>>Note that I said "sighting line"and not objects.

>It is likely that the objects were much farther away than the
>>clouds and the motion past clouds is an illusion. ...

>How does this possibility account for the objects having been
>noticeable through the extensive cloud top but then have been
>totally obscured for a few seconds when behind the still closer
>cloud-top fragment - but obscured >only when behind the latter?

Again, unless you have found some images I missed, there is no
provable case of the lights being in front of a cloud.








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                        Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:37:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:48:21 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee


>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 17:27:30 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:06:58 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>May I suggest you visit:>

>>http://brumac.8k.com/orb1.html

>>Maybe you will find what you are... or are not.... looking for.

>Hi, Bruce:

>Can you believe this stuff is still going around?!

>Three studies (including your excellent work) and links to the
>authors concerning alleged "orbs" can be found at:

>http://ifo.s5.com

I believe that a major study by Charles Leitzau and co-workers
will become available soon. I am not involved and don't know
when or where it will be available.








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                        Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:46:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:50:31 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee

>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:16:36 +1000
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:39:59 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:35:51 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

><snip>

>>>Perhaps my time working in a commercial photo lab, and my years
>>>of taking photographs have made me cynical, but I see nothing on
>>>the referenced site which appears to be anything more than what
>>>most would call a bad photo... marred by dust, smoke, etc. They
>>>are all easily reproducible, and predictably irreproducible
>>>under non-ideal conditions.>

>>Well said. I looked at the site and laughed a lot.

>Pleased I was able to amuse you.

>While you are in such a good mood, I would like to put your
>expertise in photo analysis to good use. You have worked
>for/with the CIA and called upon by the Court as expert photo
>analyst to make professional judgement on photographic evidence
>that presumably would influence decisions made by Judge and Jury
>during prosecution of the accused.

>Lets play out a small court room scenario. I am the accused. I
>claim that the photo on Dr. Bruce Maccabee's web site at:

>http://brumac.8k.com/orb3.html

>(Photo added by Cornet for comparison being Orb tube photograph
>taken by Byron Williams (Sargel 18), is a genuine Orb photo and
>that the Orb was pulsing and left a motion trail as it very
>rapidly moved just above ground away from the photographer
>during the short open camera shutter of approx. 1/60th of a
>second.

I must alert the alert reader to the following fact: I was asked
by a representative (girlfriend?) of Sargel18 to remove the
photo of an "orbtube" from my web site. I have done so. However,
I have added the web address (not a direct link) of the same
photo.

For a rare case of an orb visible and photographed during the
daytime (clearly not flash orb) visit:

http://brumac.8k.com/ORedSphere/ORedSphere.html.








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                  Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) -

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:07:30 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:52:06 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:51:33 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)

>>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:43:45 +1000
>>Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)

><snip>

>>You know, sometimes when I am feeling cynical I say the same
>>thing but I just spent yesterday afternoon with a group of
>>people who have had close encounters and something is certainly
>>collapsing in their lives. They are on a journey into another
>>way of thinking, feeling and living that has got me curious.

>>I want to know what's going on.

>Be very careful when applying your curiosity to such statements
>and the people making them. History warns us... Heaven's Gate and
>Jim Jones preyed on such curiosity and on people's sense of
>"collapse". It didn't do much for the participants' way of
>thinking, feeling... and of course... living.

>Curiosity is not constructive when it is accompanied by an
>inability to resist a charismatic message. For many who feel a
>collapse in their lives, such a message can become an answer.
>The answer... tragically... can be much worse than the collapse.


Kyle,

What are you driving at? I agree with some of your above
comments, but what has it got to do with my earlier statements?

And who said anything about a charismatic message?

Isn't the desire to know what is going on one of the driving
forces behind many researchers interest in the UFO subject?

Sorry, I think I've missed your point.

Sheryl








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                    Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 22:36:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:54:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Sparks


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:24:48 -0700
>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:36:02 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:57:17 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:44:02 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

<snip>

>>>>This illustrates a common problem in trying to evaluate UFO
>>>>reports. Witnesses make the reports, usually giving the time,
>>>>(as defined by an officially recognised time zone, sometimes
>>>>advanced one hour for "summer time"), or GMT (Greenwich Mean
>>>>Time, also referred to as Universal Time or Zulu Time).

>>>Ideally the times of UFO reports would all be recorded in GMT
>>>together with date, latitude and longitude. It would then be
>>>easy - assuming the reports were stored in a computer data base
>>>- to calculate the local apparent time, from which relevant
>>>astronomical information could be calculated.

>>I am happy to agree entirely with John on this important point.

>Please let me second (third?) that.

>I am sick to death of UFOs that appear "right after dinner" and
>which fly away "over Kelly's barn" as if clock, calender and the
>North Pole were vague abstractions, designed by eggheads to
>distract honest kids from the fish in the creek.

Still another agreement here. This raises the issue of
evaluation of UFO report quality. Very poor judgment is
continually displayed in the promotion of poor cases. As I said
before the Chiles-Whitted case is a lousy case, and not one upon
which the existence or non- existence of the UFO phenomenon
should hinge. The reason, as I said before, is that it was very
short in duration (5-10 seconds) and while certain expert
observers such as a Lincoln LaPaz could have made an enormously
detailed and accurate report of such a short observation or
could have extracted such from his sophisticated investigation
and reenactments with witnesses, there is no evidence of such
accurate and precise visual observation by Chiles or Whitted in
their reporting. So far as I can tell Chiles and Whitted never
give any angles whatsoever (except their own course heading).
The object was essentially in rectilinear motion at high speed,
not hovering where one could observe more carefully.

There is little to distinguish it from a high speed brilliant
meteor fireball and it does appear to have been sighted over
several Southern states from the Virginia-North Carolina border
(pilot Feldvary) to Georgia (Massey at Warner-Robins AFB) to
Alabama (Chiles-Whitted) on a SW course. But the Chiles-Whitted
passenger who awoke to see the flash said it was headed SE. Let
me review the Strangeness factors that would putatively exclude
a meteor and see how well they hold up (see below).

The Chiles-Whitted time of 2:45 AM seems casual, like most
people who round off times to the nearest 15 or 30 minutes or
even to the nearest hour. Was it really 2:44 or 2:46 or even
2:30 or 2:55 or whatever? Was it EST or EDT? Whitted specified
EST but Chiles did not specify a time zone or standard in his
report to the AF. It is my impression that airlines and railoads
in that era used Daylight Saving Time. It's possible Whitted
converted to EST in his reporting. The AF maintenance man in
Georgia was apparently a bit confused in his time and date.
Ruppelt seems to have assumed his 1:40-1:50 AM time was EST and
Chiles-Whitted was 2:45 AM EDT and thus the same time, as Hynek
seems to have suggested in his 1949 analysis.

This might be resolvable if one could check the newspapers for
the July 1948 flight schedule of Eastern Airlines Flight 576.
Major papers often printed airline schedules in that era.

The Strangeness factors that might exclude a meteor fireball
are:

Rocket Ship Shape with Rectangular "Windows"
"Pull Up" Maneuver
Course Change
Speed
Altitude Possibly Below Clouds

As we will see the evidence for each is very weak, equivocal, or
contradicted by the best data.


Rocket Ship Shape with Rectangular "Windows"

The famous double-decker row of rectangular or square windows on
a Buck Rogers-type pointy rocket ship is what has made this case
sensational. But there is an "airship effect" in which fast
moving flaming objects such as meteors and reentering satellites
can appear to have "windows" even sharply delineated "windows."
Hynek may have been the first to notice this effect and
suggested it specifically with reference to Chiles-Whitted.
Typically the "windows" are bright blobs of flaming material
that seem to be contrasted against a surrounding "darker body"
typically thought to be cigar-shaped or rocket-shaped. Cases
include the March 3, 1968, meteor-fireball or space debris
reentry, the June 1969 Iowa Fireball that Klass likes to point
out where a pilot over 100 miles away thought he needed to avoid
collision with the objects, and the 1913 Chant Meteor Procession
(meteors that apparently braked into earth orbit briefly).

The "double decker" parallel rows may be due to the meteor
fireball breaking up into two major portions burning up along
parallel paths shortly before final disintegration. Indeed the
Chiles-Whitted portion of the long 500+ mile trajectory that
began as far up as the southern Virginia border is the final end
of the sighting series so far as we can tell. And Whitted made
it clear to McDonald that the object did NOT disappear by going
into clouds but by disappearing in mid-air. That is what meteors
do, they burn up and disappear in mid-air.

Again, this is a problem with a short-duration high-speed moving
object case where there was not a phase of hovering to give
witnesses a chance to make better observations. The witnesses
were not experts at short-duration observations of meteors as
LaPaz was, they gave no angles and their timing data is
relatively weak.


"Pull Up" Maneuver

The famous "pull up" maneuver reported by Chiles and Whitted was
described by Whitted who had the best view because he was not
distracted by flying the plane and veering to avoid a possible
collision as Chiles was doing. Whitted told AF interviewers on a
followup that it was a "gentle climb" prior to "disappearance."
Whitted told McDonald in Jan 1968 that he was widely
misunderstood, by both the AF and his own pilot Chiles according
to McDonald, to mean that the object vanished by going into the
clouds in a sharp pullup when in fact "it climbed only perhaps a
matter of a few hundreds of feet" and it was "suddenly just
gone!" It had not gone into the cloud cover.

Again, Chiles and Whitted had a chance to prove some special
expertise at visual observation by providing precise sensible
angles and timing. But they didn't. They did not need to be
astronomers or mathematicians (as LaPaz was) or Cal Tech
aerodynamicists (as one of the Lockheed crew was). All they
needed to do was understand the concepts of angular measurements
and timing and do the best they could. But they did not
understand the importance of angles and time and the AF
investigators apparently did not either since they seem not to
have extracted that info from Chiles or Whitted.

We are left to reconstruct angles and time from fragmentary data
and logical deduction. Chiles said that at closest approach the
object passed about 700 feet to their right about 500 to 800
feet higher than their altitude. Even though distance is
difficult to impossible to determine, the relative _ratio_ of
height and distance can be fairly accurate, and that gives the
tangent of the elevation angle, which is 36 to 49 degrees at
closest approach.

Whitted estimated the speed at 700 mph (1,000 ft/sec) at 500
feet higher altitude than their DC-3 airliner. Then, as he told
McDonald, it disappeared a few hundred feet higher than that
(say 700-1,000 ft above airliner altitude). So supposing about
half the sighting duration was spent passing the plane to
disappearance we get about 2,500 to 5,000 feet distance traveled
from close approach to disappearance.

But this makes the disappearance only 8 to 22 degrees above the
aircraft local horizontal (using Chiles' close-approach distance
estimate).. This is a huge _drop_ in elevation angle from the
36-49 degrees. This is not a "pullup" or "gentle climb" but a
_descent_. The angle drops. The "pullup" is apparently an
illusion of distance perspective. Perhaps if the climb had been
very sharp instead of "gentle" we could hypothesize that as the
angle gradually dropped there was a sudden lift up. But Whitted
was quite explicit in telling McDonald it was a "gentle climb"
evidently over a large fraction of the sighting duration, which
is clearly contradicted by the angles calculated.

A meteor could have been at about, say, 45 miles up at the close
approach traveling at say 20 miles per second (72,000 mph),
dropping to 40 miles altitude at disappearance. These numbers
can be adjusted and are merely to illustrate how plausible a
meteor scenario can be. At a ground distance of say 60 miles at
close approach this would be an elevation angle of 37 degrees,
consistent with the data from Chiles-Whitted. At disappearance
perhaps 100 miles away the elevation angle would be 22 degrees,
again consistent with the Chiles-Whitted data I previously
calculated. Farther back up the trajectory in North Carolina,
the meteor might have become visible at about 90 miles altitude
(including earth dropoff of thirty miles or so). All these
numbers are quite consistent with meteor fireballs.


Course Change

As Chiles veered the airliner to the left the object reportedly
veered the opposite direction to their right. Or was the
impression of the object turning simply an illusion caused by
the airliner's own turn? Why should the reality of the UFO
phenomenon have to hinge on a few seconds of a sudden and
unexpected event like this with not even a quantitative estimate
of how many degrees of the "turn"? This simply degenerates into
an argument over pilot qualifications, etc., that do not prove
anything one way or another. These pilots did not provide angles
and their timing is very loose, so there is no reason from the
weakness of their reporting to want to rely on them for the
impression of a momentary course change by the object, an
alleged course change whose size is completely unknown. Was it a
trivial slight 1-degree turn, or 10 degrees or 45 degrees?? Who
knows?

Without a numerical estimate the alleged turn remains rather
subjective. This is how one can gauge whether to put much weight
on a witness observation -- numerical estimates are to be
preferred over non-quantitative subjective impressions. This is
basic science.

A meteor in general cannot change course, though if it broke up
or a portion broke off the different parts could veer off in
differing directions. A portion could break off out of view
depending on the angle of view, clouds that may hide that
portion, and other visibility factors. Whether this rare
possibility needs to be invoked is a good question. Chiles did
not have a good view of the object disappearing because he was
busy piloting the plane to avoid what he thought could have been
a collision. The illusion of a pilot thinking he was about to
collide with a distant meteor, thinking it was an aircraft much
closer, is known from the Iowa Fireball case of 1969, as Philip
Klass has pointed out many times without recognition by the UFO
community.

AF flight mechanic Massey in Georgia about 200 miles from Chiles
and Whitted and presumably observing slightly earlier in the
meteor flight claimed the object "took a changing southwest
course while in sight" after first being seen in the N. Massey
did not give an angle for the turn. McDonald interpreted this as
a 45-degree turn from a S heading to a SW heading but Massey is
perhaps too fuzzy to rely upon for such an inference, as he
seems a bit confused on his observational details, such as which
day the sighting occurred (Friday the 23rd or Saturday the
24th), there are two different times attributed without
explanation (1:40-1:50 or 2:05 AM), etc. And again Massey did
not give any figure at all, nothing about a 45- degree turn or
any particular number of degrees. Without a numerical estimate
the alleged course change remains rather subjective. A meteor of
course can be seen in the N and still be on a SW heading,
without changing course.


Speed

Whitted reported the object seemed to be traveling at 700 mph.
AF man in Georgia also said 700 mph, but also compared the
object to a V-2 he had seen in France during the war, and V-2
speed was up to about 4,000 mph.

Because distance could not be reliably determined, Whitted's 1/2
mile distance estimate (he was not clear as to whether that
applied at first sight or close approach or disappearance or
just when) could be scaled up by a factor of a hundred to meteor
distances. Then the speed scales up to 70,000 mph, which is in
accord with the 72,000 mph meteor speed scenario I outlined
above.


Altitude Possibly Below Clouds

No one ever explicitly said they saw the rocket ship silhouetted
against clouds. If it had been seen against the clouds Chiles
and Whitted could have said they had a reliable means to
estimate the distance using the clouds. But they never said
such a thing, never said they could use the scattered clouds for
a distance reference, or upper limit. Whitted even had to
complain to McDonald that his statement about the object
disappearing was not meant to imply the object went into clouds
(which would give us a distance marker) but that it had vanished
in mid-air apparently against clear sky -- as a meteor would.

In summary, there is not enough reliable quantitative data in
the Chiles-Whitted case from its short duration of 5-10 seconds
to exclude a bright meteor fireball, and it should not be used
as a strong case or best evidence for UFO reality.

Brad Sparks








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               Re: Halifax Conference Tackles UFOs - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:43:22 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:57:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Halifax Conference Tackles UFOs - Friedman


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:16:22 -0500
>Subject: Re: Halifax Conference Tackles UFOs

>>Source: Broadcast News

>>http://www.canada.com/maritimes/news/story.html?id=50182988-f1af-4
>>49e-938d-7d5c76177f4d

>>09-19-04

>>Halifax Conference Tackles UFOs

><snip>

>>But speaker and ufologist Stanton Friedman says interest in UFOs
>>is actually quite high in Atlantic Canada it's just that most
>>people are afraid to admit they're a believer.

>>He says about one in 10 people who come to his lectures all over
>>North America say they've had an encounter with extra
>>terrestrials.

><snip>

>Question for Stan Friedman,

>Stan, are these statements accurate? Have one in ten of your
>attendees claimed to have had an encounter with
>extraterrestrials?

>I ask because you have posted in the past about a "show of
>hands" informal survey where attendees indicate whether or not
>they have seen a UFO. Unless I mis-read, this is quite different
>than stating they indicated they had an encounter with
>extraterrestrials.

No, the quote is not accurate. What I said was that I check my
audiences after my lecture and ask how many believe they have
seen what I would describe as a flying saucer, having defined
the term early on.

Typically the hands go up slowly, each thinking he or she is the
only one. I count out loud.

Typically 10% believe they have seen one.

Then I ask how many reported what they saw and 90% of the hands
go down.

The Halifax Chronicle Herald  of Sept. 19 got it right, on page
4, in an article by Jennifer Stewart "Public Asked to take UFOs
Seriously."


Stan Friedman







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                 Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:01:45 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:20:10 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell -


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:03:19 +0200
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:00:20 EDT
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>>Gildas I will not "shut-up" and you have no right to tell me
>>that! What an obnoxious attitude! You have no damn right to tell
>>me to give you hundreds of pages of book manuscript material in
>>various stages of editing, requiring major revisions because of
>>new findings I have not had time to incorporate. Nor do you have
>>the right to tell me to condense it into a post to UFO UpDates,
>>minus all the scholarly documentation and argument that would be
>>in a book. It just happens not to condense very well - and I
>>have made many efforts attempting to do so.

>Brad,

>The trouble with your attitude is you announce publicly that all
>researchers on Roswell, skeptics and "believers" alike, are
>wrong, that you have enormous documentation proving that, but
>that, since people don't seem to want want to know about it, you
>are not going to say more for the time being. Maybe you will
>publish a book later, if you find the time.

>What you show here is a lot of arrogance.

>Are we supposed to just wait and hopy that, someday, you will
>condescend to reveal the 'Truth'?

>Or course I don't ask you to publish hundreds of pages. One
>reasonable answer, that you owe to us now, is to give a least a
>general idea.

Brad,

I agree with Gildas and David. You may have all the info in your
head, and nobody is asking you to write a book in response -
though that does seem to be what you really want to do. But I,
for one, am not psychic.

Len Stringfield used to put out crash stories that he couldn't
check on himself, but he would not allow anybody else to check
either.

It appears that you have come up with a whole new paradigm. But
I surely can't tell what it is, or how you got there, or why you
think you have provided any real clue.

Basically you have damned the work of most other researchers,
but why bring it up if you can't summarize at least some of the
details, instead of getting angry at people who would be quite
willing to listen and perhaps agree?


Stan Friedman
Puzzled in Fredericton








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                         Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:51:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:29:33 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Colvin


The comment below is from my retired meteorologist and amateur
astronomer friend, Steve. How true is his statement?

Terry

-----

"The interesting thing is that no amateur astronomer - a person
who would be knowledgeable about the sky, has ever photographed
or videotaped a classical UFO." --Steve

-----









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                         Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:06:43 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:04:39 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Ledger


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:51:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON

>The comment below is from my retired meteorologist and amateur
>astronomer friend, Steve. How true is his statement?


>"The interesting thing is that no amateur astronomer - a person
>who would be knowledgeable about the sky, has ever photographed
>or videotaped a classical UFO." --Steve

First Terry, what does he mean by "the sky"? If he meant the
first 60 miles upward from the Earth's surface, your amateur or
professional astronomer is no more of an expert than the rest of
the population. Meteorologists and pilots work in that space,
not astronomers.


Don Ledger









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               Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:24:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:07:09 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King


>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:07:30 +1000
>Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)


>What are you driving at? I agree with some of your above
>comments, but what has it got to do with my earlier statements?

>And who said anything about a charismatic message?

>Isn't the desire to know what is going on one of the driving
>forces behind many researchers interest in the UFO subject?

>Sorry, I think I've missed your point.


Hi Sheryl,

I meant no offense. I was only offering a word of caution. Your
quote from John Mack was the kind of charismatic statement which
can lead some to fall into a way of thinking that lends undue
weight to the charisma of it while obscuring the true meaning of
it.

When someone experiences trauma, it is not unreasonable to think
they may want to find a meaning in the experience. Such persons
are vulnerable to being misled.

I'm not saying that Dr. Mack is misleading anyone, but I
reiterate my warning that believing a charismatic message can be
a dangerous thing.

By charismatic, I mean a message which sounds plausible on the
surface, but which is actually just one among many possibilities
that aren't mentioned. People who have experienced something
they feel is extraordinary tend to accept extraordinary
explanations over the alternative. There are those out there who
would, could, and have preyed on such people.

Caveat Emptor!

More specifically, I was drawn to the first words of the Mack
quote you alluded to..."in the end...". It is this implication,
that his statement is the final word, that moves beyond helpful
counsel and into the area of charismatic, declarative truth. The
statement clearly dismisses other possibilities, while sounding
very satisfying. There is a danger there, as I mentioned.

While I have never met an abductee, I have talked to someone who
witnessed a UFO at very close range, and who was physically
injured by it (burns, numerous health problems which defy common
explanation, etc). She had no feeling that she was being
"enlightened" in the mystical sense. She felt she had been in
the wrong place at the wrong time.

However, I must admit that her "duality" has indeed collapsed.
She passed away some years ago...ill and with no sense of
connectedness that made her feel better about it.

If abductions are an effort to enlighten, why is it done without
explicit consent? Why not abduct those who are eager for the
experience? Is our future one in which we travel the galaxy,
kidnapping people in order to show them the truth? I think
that's a stretch at best, but it can, and has been, stated in a
very charismatic way.

Best Regards,

Kyle









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                         Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:21:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:09:23 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Kaeser


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:51:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON

>The comment below is from my retired meteorologist and amateur
>astronomer friend, Steve. How true is his statement?

>"The interesting thing is that no amateur astronomer - a person
>who would be knowledgeable about the sky, has ever photographed
>or videotaped a classical UFO." --Steve


I don't believe that this is entirely accurate. Let's not foget
Dr. Lincoln LaPaz, an astronomer who was involved in the
investigation of the Green Fireballs of the late 40's and early
50's, and also a witness to other UFO events. The statement made
is, in itself, a popular phrase that gets more attention than it
probably deserves.


[A different] Steve








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                          Re: UFOs + ECHELON - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:35:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:10:45 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON - King


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:51:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON

>The comment below is from my retired meteorologist and amateur
>astronomer friend, Steve. How true is his statement?

>"The interesting thing is that no amateur astronomer - a person
>who would be knowledgeable about the sky, has ever photographed
>or videotaped a classical UFO." --Steve

Terry,

I have no basis on which to declare the truth of this statement,
but I have a note or three to add based on common sense alone...

Astronomers use telescopes. Telescopes are designed to allow one
to ignore the vast majority of the sky in order to allow
examination of a very small part. Further, the telescope focuses
on a point of light far from the viewer, so objects much closer
which might pass by could be easily missed even when moving
through the telescopes field of view.

An alternative view could hold that astronomers are much more
familiar with what is out there, and have yet to encounter
something for which they have no ready explanation.

Finally, I find it difficult to accept any statement which
proposes that something has never happened. I can imagine an
astronomer who has no interest in UFOs as an extraterrestrial
phenomenon might dismiss an anomalous feature out of fear of
ridicule. The photos and film may very well be in existence, but
relegated to the proverbial cutting room floor.

To recount a very well-worn phrase in this forum...absence of
evidence is not evidence of absence.


Regards,

Kyle








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                     Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:31:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:11:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Clark


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:06:40 +0100
>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:34:18 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

>>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:23:12 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting


Christopher,

>Seriously though, Jerry: Neither you, Brad, nor anyone else
>has the right to tell us which UFO cases we should or should not
>be discussing in this forum.

Now you really _are_ being silly.


Jerry Clark









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                  Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:07:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:28:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Clark


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:03:29 +0100
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:42:11 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>Later in Budd's abduction career, he was closely observed
>>(during his work on the "Witnessed" case) by two highly
>>professional psychotherapists, one of whom has been awarded the
>>Macarthur Prize, one of America's highest intellectual honors.
>>I've spoken to both these people. Neither agrees with Budd's
>>conclusions - neither believes that aliens (little, grey, or
>>otherwise) are abducting people. But both told me that they
>>admire Budd's methodology, and find it highly professional. I
>>published this in my IUR study of the "Witnessed" case, so it's
>>part of the abduction record.

>If these people don't believe Budd's nonsense about aliens
>abducting people how can they describe his methodology as "highly
>professional"? It doesn't make sense.

There it is, succinctly stated above, the problem with
pelicanism, magonia faction, in a nutshell:

(1) Anything that Harney and gang don't agree with is
"nonsense," period. Either John can cram it into a convenient
ideological container, or it's to be ridiculed out of
contention.

(2) Since theory is everything, it is therefore impossible not
to have a firm - and, to the point, orthodoxy-affirming -
dismissive view of heterodox testimony. After all, puzzling
data with no theory to crush them can only provoke dangerous
levels of cognitive dissonance, with attendant intellectual
meltdown, in the sensitive pelicanist, and we surely can't have
that, can we?


Jerry Clark









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                         Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:59:37 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:35:46 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Ledger


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:35:44 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:51:42 -0700
>>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON

>>The comment below is from my retired meteorologist and amateur
>>astronomer friend, Steve. How true is his statement?

>>"The interesting thing is that no amateur astronomer - a
>>person who would be knowledgeable about the sky, has ever
>>photographed or videotaped a classical UFO." --Steve

>Terry,

>I have no basis on which to declare the truth of this
>statement, but I have a note or three to add based on common
>sense alone...

>Astronomers use telescopes. Telescopes are designed to allow
>one to ignore the vast majority of the sky in order to allow
>examination of a very small part. Further, the telescope focuses
>on a point of light far from the viewer, so objects much closer
>which might pass by could be easily missed even when moving
>through the telescopes field of view.

>An alternative view could hold that astronomers are much more
>familiar with what is out there, and have yet to encounter
>something for which they have no ready explanation.

>Finally, I find it difficult to accept any statement which
>proposes that something has never happened. I can imagine an
>astronomer who has no interest in UFOs as an extraterrestrial
>phenomenon might dismiss an anomalous feature out of fear of
>ridicule. The photos and film may very well be in existence, but
>relegated to the proverbial cutting room floor.

>To recount a very well-worn phrase in this forum... absence of
>evidence is not evidence of absence.

I meant to mention earlier that which will come as no surprise
to many in the field of UFO research that Clyde W. Tombough, the
astronomer who discovered Pluto in 1930 after 11 years of poring
through endless photographic plates using the blinking process,
had a UFO sighting on August 20, 1949 which he claims changed
his opinion of the phenomenon in a matter of minutes. He had
three different sightings-without the use of an optical aid- and
claimed the following:

"I have seen three objects in the last seven years which defied
any explanation of known phenomenon, such as Venus, atmospheric
optic,  meteors or planes.I am a professional, highly skilled,
professional astronomer. In addition I have seen three green
fireballs which were unusual in behavior from normal green
fireballs...I think that several reputable scientists are being
unscientific in refusing to entertain the possibility of extra-
terrestrial origin and nature."

He died in the Fall of 1997 and was the only astronomer to have
discovered a planet in the solar system in twentieth century.

Don Ledger








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              Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:00:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:38:03 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - Kaeser


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:24:41 -0500
>Subject: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)

<snip>

>By charismatic, I mean a message which sounds plausible on the
>surface, but which is actually just one among many possibilities
>that aren't mentioned. People who have experienced something
>they feel is extraordinary tend to accept extraordinary
>explanations over the alternative. There are those out there who
>would, could, and have preyed on such people.

Kyle,

I had to look up "charismatic" and find out the actual
definition, and found that it means:

1. Of, relating to, or characterized by charisma: "the warmth of
a naturally charismatic leader" (Joyce Carol Oates).

2. Of, relating to, or being a type of Christianity that
emphasizes personal religious experience and divinely inspired
powers, as of healing, prophecy, and the gift of tongues.

However, I'm not sure which one applies with regard to your
usage.


Steve








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                   Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:14:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:55:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Maccabee


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 22:36:02 EDT
>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting


>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:24:48 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

SNIP
>>>>>This illustrates a common problem in trying to evaluate UFO
>>>>>reports. Witnesses make the reports, usually giving the time,
>>>>>(as defined by an officially recognised time zone, sometimes
>>>>>advanced one hour for "summer time"), or GMT (Greenwich Mean
>>>>>Time, also referred to as Universal Time or Zulu Time).

SNIP

>Still another agreement here. This raises the issue of
>evaluation of UFO report quality. Very poor judgment is
>continually displayed in the promotion of poor cases. As I said
>before the Chiles-Whitted case is a lousy case, and not one upon
>which the existence or non- existence of the UFO phenomenon
>should hinge. The reason, as I said before, is that it was very
>short in duration (5-10 seconds) and while certain expert
>observers such as a Lincoln LaPaz could have made an enormously
>detailed and accurate report of such a short observation or
>could have extracted such from his sophisticated investigation
>and reenactments with witnesses, there is no evidence of such
>accurate and precise visual observation by Chiles or Whitted in
t>heir reporting. So far as I can tell Chiles and Whitted never
>give any angles whatsoever (except their own course heading).
>The object was essentially in rectilinear motion at high speed,
>not hovering where one could observe more carefully.

<snip>

>Altitude Possibly Below Clouds

>No one ever explicitly said they saw the rocket ship silhouetted
>against clouds. If it had been seen against the clouds Chiles
>and Whitted could have said they had a reliable means to
>estimate the distance using the clouds. But they never said
>such a thing, never said they could use the scattered clouds for
>a distance reference, or upper limit. Whitted even had to
>complain to McDonald that his statement about the object
>disappearing was not meant to imply the object went into clouds
>(which would give us a distance marker) but that it had vanished
>in mid-air apparently against clear sky -- as a meteor would.

>In summary, there is not enough reliable quantitative data in
>he Chiles-Whitted case from its short duration of 5-10 seconds
>o exclude a bright meteor fireball, and it should not be used
>as a strong case or best evidence for UFO reality.

The preceding detailed analysis of the CW sighting of a "meteor"
should be compared with the 2 1/2 - 3 *minute* sighting of
"remarkable meteors" from the deck of the the ship U.S.S. Supply
in Feb. 1904. The witness statements imply that the "meteors"
were seen below the clouds and subsequently soared upward
through the clouds and changed direction. Although an argument
has been made that these were, in fact, meteors (Barry
Greenwood), upon analysis the meteor explanation , IMHO, falls
apart. see

http://brumac.8k.com/RemarkableMeteors/RemarkableMeteors.html

My MUFON symposium paper on this case will be posted soon.








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                        Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:19:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:14:03 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Maccabee


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:51:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON


>The comment below is from my retired meteorologist and amateur
>astronomer friend, Steve. How true is his statement?

>Terry

-----

>"The interesting thing is that no amateur astronomer - a person
>who would be knowledgeable about the sky, has ever photographed
>or videotaped a classical UFO." --Steve

False.

Back in the '70's I received reports from two amateur
astronomers. It's been so long ago I can hardly remember, but if
I look through my files I can perhaps find the reports.

I do recall one guy who took a photo that he thought was a rare
case of Jupiter being visible during the daytime. He ran and got
his camera on a trpod and took a picture. Then "Jupiter" split
into two parts and the parts "few away."

As recall, the reports I checked on were in letters to the
editor of Astronomy mag.








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                    Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:27:45 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:17:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Ledger


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:31:15 -0500
>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:06:40 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

<snip>

>Christopher,

>>Seriously though, Jerry: Neither you, Brad, nor anyone else
>>has the right to tell us which UFO cases we should or should not
>>be discussing in this forum.

>Now you really _are_ being silly.

As Jerry will affirm, there are many cases out there that are
abject nonsense to begin with, disclaimed or ignored as being
trash and not worthy of note. However some debunkers insist on
investigating them to attempt to prove that the phenomemnon is
groundless.

You can start with Dr. Edward Condon [or earlier] and work your
way through to the present, however Condon frustrated, and
dismayed some of his own researchers by insisting that the
fringe element'c claims [those building landing strips for the
flying saucers, for example] be investigated as well, probably
to skew the results, which didn't work. Lord knows Condon
himself tried his damndest.


Don Ledger










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                          Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:30:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:20:19 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Hall


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:51:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON

>The comment below is from my retired meteorologist and amateur
>astronomer friend, Steve. How true is his statement?

>"The interesting thing is that no amateur astronomer - a person
>who would be knowledgeable about the sky, has ever photographed
>or videotaped a classical UFO." --Steve

Terry,

I don't know whether his statement is true or not, but it
certainly is not significant in regard to UFOs. I had a 4-inch
reflector telescope and spent countless hours observing the
Moon, Mars, etc. If a UFO flew through the Earth's atmosphere it
would not likely be seen through an astronomical telescope. And
the photographic interests of astronomers have nothing to do
with the atmosphere, only deep space. They would not have any
particular need for a videocamera, and a camera attached to
their lens ssystem would be useless. Their attention is focused
on an extremely narrow angle of sky.

Now, if no pilot, or meteorologist, or weather observer, or
meteor watchers, or control tower operators (people who look at
the sky constantly) have ever photographed or videotaped a UFO,
that would be significant.

 - Dick








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                         Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Hicks

From: Simon Hicks <slh.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:45:53 +0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:22:13 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Hicks


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:51:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON

>The comment below is from my retired meteorologist and amateur
>astronomer friend, Steve. How true is his statement?

>"The interesting thing is that no amateur astronomer - a person
>who would be knowledgeable about the sky, has ever photographed


Although not specifically dealing with classical UFOs, Ingo
Swann in his boo, Penetration, referenced a large number of
astronomers who between them have catalogued thousands of
anomalous events on the moon over a long period of time.


Regards








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                  Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Miller

From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:31:01 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:28:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Miller


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:48:38 +0100
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:32:24 +0100 (BST)
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:43:50 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>>>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:48:15 +0100 (BST)
>>>>Subject: Magonia - The Truth Is There [Was: New Mexico
>Governor...]

>>>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:07:52 +0100
>>>>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>But I am puzzled. You seem able, from more than 3,000 miles
>>away, to apparently confidently make statements not only
>>about Hopkins' and Jacobs' professional abilities, but also,
>>seemingly, about their mental states as well. Congratulations
>>John. You must be the first holder of a new doctorate or
>>degree that the rest of us have never heard of before, and
>>one which would normally have resulted in immediate
>>professional disbarment or censure under "the old way". I am
>>referring to the practise of making a diagnosis
>>about "patient" without ever having had a consultation with
>>them. Pray tell, which esteemed college awarded you this
>>degree? The same one that awarded Dr.Ian Paisley his
>>Doctorate in theology perhaps?

>I have to judge by what they actually write, and they write
>utter nonsense about greys floating through walls to abduct
>people, alien implants, etc.

You still haven't answered the question. You have made an
absolute statement about something. I want to know on what basis
of credentials do you make this statement? Are you experienced
in this field?

Of course we all know you're not John. The experience you have
here is the experience of picking up a book, reading it, and
then making a pronouncement. Perhaps this is a new type of
science? Seems like sound scientific methodolgy!

How can you expect to be taken seriously with knee-jerk emotive
responses like this? Isn't life supremely ironic when roles get
swapped? Isn't this the sort of thing you'd say to a "believer"
who will prattle on about something without the slightest trace
of proof or evidence?

<snip>

>>>Wouldn't any sensible and responsible person agree that
>>>concern for Katharina Wilson's mental health is a rather
>>>more constructive attitude than apparently taking her story
>>>as being  a true account of objectively real events?

>>See previous above answer. I keep trying to push the word
>>"arrogant" out of my brain in relation to you, but it keeps
>>popping back in. What in god's name do you know about it? How
>>are you qualified to offer such an opinion? What's your
>>experience in the field, pray tell.

>OK, there are two possible explanations for Katharina Wilson
>wandering around the airport for an hour and apparently having
>weird experiences (1) she suffered some kind of mental
>disturbance, as I suggested, or (2) she just made it up. I
>think (1) is the most likely. If you can think of a better
>explanation just say what it is.

And contained neatly above in this nicely nailed-down little
narrative is the answer to everything.

What are you doing in this subject if the above is what you
think? Do you acknowledge the anomalous at all?

There are not two possible explanations for Katharina Wilson's
experiences. There are at least three and possibly more. The
third being that what she claims she experienced actually
happened. Too ridiculous for words? Then go back to your
knitting or playing bingo or whatever it is that you near-London
types do to while away the early autumn evenings.

>>>Yes, most ufologists are a bit soft in the head. Perhaps
>>>it's unkind to mention it but it's just one of the facts of
>>>life.

>>Sounds like you're on the back foot here a bit John. If you
>>just want to get plain abusive and resort to the sort of
>>level I usually drop down to and which I am very good at,
>>then by all means. But we'll bore the rest of the List even
>>more than we're doing now.

>I'm not being abusive - it's a self-evident fact and the main
>reason why the subject is not taken seriously by mainstream
>science.

I'm fine with that John as long as we agree that sceptics are
soft in the head too. That at least is fair and balanced. So,
everybody involved in this subject then is soft in the head. No
wonder we're not taken seriously by mainstream science.


Stuart Miller








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                           UFOs Bush And CBS News

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:31:10 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:53:48 -0400
Subject: UFOs Bush And CBS News


As you all know the top story is how CBS has now publicly
addressed their 'lack of confidence' in the documentation that
lead to their inquiry and broadcasting information regarding the
National Guard service record of President George W. Bush.

After bantering back and forth for weeks, just now CBS and
anchorman Dan Rather have apologized for being duped by the
source of the documents that lead to this public display.

Sure newsmen make mistakes. We've all seen sloppy reporting and
often downright vindictive, rotten, and haphazard reporting.

In this case with CBS, we're learning how easy it was to
hoodwink the vaunted CBS team. Documents are documents. In
today's high tech world of printing, it's easy to dupe
documents. Actually it's always been easy just check out how
difficult it's been for law enforcement to deal with
counterfeiting.

The press was fooled. How about the public? Do we know a real
document from a fake? Anyone train in this area?

It's scary. I wouldn't say CBS jumped the gun and ran with it
but what we have here is deceit to up-end a news service and
it's reputation and derail a President's character. It's ironic
that CBS and Bush are in the same boat. No WMDs and fraudulent
documents.

Could it be the same source? How many times have Ufologists been
mislead, undermined, curtailed, hoodwinked, bamboozled by
sources that turned out to have every agenda other than the
truth?

We're going to get a lesson in the workings of the press and
government. It could show us the "mechanics sinister" that hide
behind the scenes.

Often the phrase "Keep watching the skies" pops up in ufology,
coming from that great Howard Hawks' flick, The Thing. Perhaps
we should be saying instead:

"Watch your back."


Best,

Greg








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             Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:38:05 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:03:12 -0400
Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell - Sparks


>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:03:19 +0200
>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:00:20 EDT
>>Subject: Re: New Mexico Governor Rekindles Roswell

<snip>

>>Nor do you have
>>the right to tell me to condense it into a post to UFO UpDates,
>>minus all the scholarly documentation and argument that would be
>>in a book. It just happens not to condense very well - and I
>>have made many efforts attempting to do so.
<snip>

>Or course I don't ask you to publish hundreds of pages. One
>reasonable answer, that you owe to us now, is to give a least a
>general idea.

I did give a "general idea" when I commented earlier in this
thread, and at greater length, when I was in the early stages of
research some 3 years ago - and no one was interested.

That was my point earlier in this thread, that no one was
interested in any friendly way - only in a hostile way.

At a time when I had not written-up hundreds of pages of
material, in the formative stages, I could have had a fruitful
exchange, had some encouragement. Do you even know what that is
Gildas or are you only capable of "put up or shut up!" jibes?

Now, I do not feel like surrendering my several hundred pages,
or making still another hopeless effort at writing a condensed
article - which I did back in 2001-2 and found the response to
it decidedly unenthusiastic. It would now, in light of
subsequent research, have to be completely revised and I no
longer have time for that.

Again, you ignore my supportive posts on your MOGUL research,
agreeing with you - you claimed I had not - and my work
extending your point with added important points, regarding
unique MOGUL material not found at the Foster Ranch debris
field.


Brad Sparks








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                          Close Encounter In Alaska

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:04:45 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:08:57 -0400
Subject: Close Encounter In Alaska


Interesting Close Encounter In Alaska

I spoke with this witness, who had a fascinating story to tell.
This case would be very worthwhile to follow up, if it wasn't
for the fact that the location is so isolated.

-----

Bettles, Alaska
September 17, 2004
2:30 am

Witness' Narrative:

"I live in a remote town in northern Alaska. After having dinner
at a friend I went home. My place is located about two mile
south of town. There is a airport located there and a rotating
beacon for the airport. I have lived here for nearly thirty
years. Being located away from town it is extremely quite with
very little noise. I went to sleep around 11:00PM. I was awaken
by a humming sound that was not real loud, almost like a
flourescent lamp with a bad ballast. I thought it was my
inverted down stairs and got up to see if something was wrong.
As I was laying in bed I could see the light from the airport
beacon flashing in the north window. I sat up and noticed red
and white lights flashing on the trees thru the east window. I
thought it might be some of the locals stuck in my driveway and
the red and white lights were from the rear of the vehicle. I
then got out of bed to look out the window facing my driveway. I
never even looked down as I immediately seen the source of the
lights. Just above the tree top was an object just hanging there
not moving. My best estimate it was about 20 to 30 feet across
and about 6 to 8 feet thick. It was more or less disk shaped
from what I could tell. The upper part of the object was dark
while the bottom had red and white lights that flashed in no
apparent pattern but random. I stepped back from the window and
grabbed the phone to attempt to call the local weather service
as they were staffed 24 hours a day. I was able to get someone
and told them to look towards my house and see if they could see
what I was seeing. Due to the trees in his area he was not able
to see my house. I kept thinking to myself that this can't be
happening, this is not real. After maybe a minute on the phone I
was becoming desperate to get someone to see this and not just
me. I then contacted another person I thought might be able to
see my place. Again due to the trees surrounding his place he
could not see my place. By now I had become very disturbed or a
better word I was scared. I stood in the middle of the room not
know what to do. It must have been two minutes by now and the
object began to move toward the house. As it passed above the
house it again stopped. It seemed to just stay there for a long
time then suddenly there was an extremely bright white light
that scanned the entire yard and house three or four times. It
stopped and didn't move for a few seconds and then started
moving to the south slowly. I didn't move till I could no longer
see any lights outside. I then informed the other party that if
he did not hear from me in two minutes to come looking. I then
dressed grabbed a firearm and flashlight and went down stairs. I
went outside looking for it but it was gone. I then quickly
drove to town and stayed at the weather station till morning
light."


Investigator's Note:

The object's size, as judged by the witnesses from its movement
over nearby trees, was 20-30 feet by 6-8 feet, and was within 50
feet of the witness. It was disc-shaped, dark on top and
illuminated on the bottom. The witness was contacted on
September 20, 2004, and was in good spirits but still shaken by
the event. "I just keep thinking It couldn't have been real.
Things like this don't exist.'"








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                      Re: Some Co-Incidence - Dickenson

From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:49:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:13:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Some Co-Incidence - Dickenson


>From: Kelly Freeman <Khfflsciufo.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:04:34 EDT
>Subject: Re: Some Co-Incidence

>>From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:12:29 +0100
>>Subject: Some Co-Incidence

>>So - Deimos and Phobos (+ weirdness) PLUS Pluto and Charon (+
>>weirdness).

>>How came those detailed predictions and attendant weirdness?
>>Any ideas?

>It could very well be, that all knowledge of the cosmos, etc.
>exists in the ether, or let's say, the nothingness of space, and
>such coincidences are really a result of the brain/mind of these
>individuals tapping into and translating the impressions received
>from this vast store of hidden knowledge/information.
>Repeat after me... just_an_ idea. :)


Hello Kelly & Listers,

Right, and that idea of a Cosmic Information store, or to go one
step further, a Cosmic Intelligence, rings a bell.

Examining science's co-incidences, Prof. Sir Fred Hoyle & Prof.
Chandra Wickramasinghe wrote: "A cosmic intelligence could be
envisioned on a much more ambitious scale than the capacity of
our own brains" [in their "Cosmic Life-Force"]

And data collected by John Keel (from 'silent contactees')
points to a level of 'co-incidence' approaching spookiness. He
wrote:

"What astonished me most... predictions were coming in from wide
variety of sources... mediums... automatic writers... spirit
world... coming up with same as the UFO [silent] contactees" and
"Often the prophecies were phrased identically in different
sections of the country... we could not overlook the peculiar
set of correlative factors"

Keel added this caution:

"This is the tiger behind the door... I didn't [set-up] cult
impressed with accuracy of the... predictions. Others have not
been so lucky"

[John A Keel - "UFOs: Operation Trojan Horse" New York 1971]

More co-incidence? Both Jonathon Swift and Percival Lowell were
under considerable stress and some opprobrium in their public
lives, as you'd maybe expect the average contactee to be. Keel
found most contactees were 'silent' - not seeking publicity. And
remember Fred Hoyle was disapproved of and pressurized by the
establishment for his outspoken views.

So, _maybe_ some link between stress, rigged public disapproval,
and - sporadic - powers of accurate 'prophecy'/'prediction' - as
Kelly Freeman suggests?

Any more co-incidences?


Cheers,

Ray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~









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                      Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Praestegaard

From: Soren Praestegaard <soren.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:18:10 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:15:01 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Praestegaard


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:51:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON

>The comment below is from my retired meteorologist and amateur
>astronomer friend, Steve. How true is his statement?

>"The interesting thing is that no amateur astronomer - a person
>who would be knowledgeable about the sky, has ever photographed
>or videotaped a classical UFO." --Steve

I'm no astronomer, but isn't it so that astronomers usually look
at the sky using binoculars, focused on very distant objects,
thereby minimising the captured area of the earth's atmosphere.

You would have to be unbelievable lucky to capture an UFO, and
the UFO would bee very much out of focus because of the distant
object in focus.


Soeren Praestegaard








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                         Re: New Orb Images - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:34:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:17:50 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Hebert


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:37:30 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 17:27:30 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>I believe that a major study by Charles Leitzau and co-workers
>will become available soon. I am not involved and don't know
>when or where it will be available.

A "major study"? I find it sad that _anyone_ is wasting any more
time on this nonsense when there are dozens of genuine phenomena
out there that need to be researched - like, maybe... UFOs!

You, Dr. Haselhoff, I and others have devoted valuable time to
study claims like "orbs", "chemtrails" and all the birds, bugs,
debris, etc. promoted as UFO's that could have been used to
study _real_ phenomena. This is a waste of any researcher's
time. What's worse, there are people who continue to believe
"orbs" exist. Ah, folklore in the making.


A. Hebert








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                HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings

From: Bran Vike - HBCC UFO <hbccufo.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:12:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:30:55 -0400
Subject: HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings


HBCC UFO Research Recently Reported Sightings

Newsletter Release: September 20, 2004

-----

Ghost In Our House

We had a ghost in our house when I was young; he normally took
the form of a man from the 30's era or so, he had a pin-striped
suit and a straw hat.

My brother saw him more frequently than anyone else (my older
brother) though my mom and dad both admitted to seeing him or
having strange things happen around the house.

We weren't the only home in this small town that saw him.

Some of our neighbors (especially the older folks) admitted to
seeing him either in the neighborhood or in their homes. He
seemed harmless. They called him the Traveling Man cause it was
generally believed that he was the ghost of a traveling
salesman.

My oldest brother (I am the youngest of 3) never really told me
about strange experiences though, just the middle brother and
my parents. My daughter hasn't told me about any strange things
happening. She just seems to have had the normal childhood fears
of the dark, etc.


Thank you to the person for the report.

-----

San Antonio, Texas Alien Encounter?

Message: My name is (removed), I live in San Antonio, TX, and I
have a couple of things to report. It is rather strange cause I
really wasn't intending to make a report I was just curious
about your site. However, I now feel compelled to report these
strange happenings especially since I have only just read a
bunch of stories and seen photos of 'scoop' marks... And I have
an unexplained scar on my foot.

Anyway, to get to it: Years ago while a child in a small South
Texas town, I somehow obtained an A-shaped (or triangle-shaped)
scar on the top of my right foot (near the ankle). I remember
impressions and 'feelings' more than any actual event concerning
the scar. I remember asking my mother about it once and she said
it must be a birthmark but it doesn't look like any birthmark I
have ever seen... I even remember arguing with her (I was
probably younger than 8 or so) about it saying that the 'ant'
did it. When I think back, I have a feeling or impression of a
large "ant" face. A gray perhaps?

At any rate, it is an upside down "A" shape that is raised like
a scar. The reason I say "A" as opposed to "triangle" is that
the center is a hollow "triangle" (so a raised triangle
surrounding a hollow triangle). I have had it for as long as I
can remember but to this day it is somewhat uncomfortable if I
press on it. I am wondering if maybe I was studied and "marked"
in some way like you here about from time to time.

Throughout my childhood I was near terrified of the dark. I
guess that isn't strange but I used to have vivid dreams and
even see "ghosts" or something in the darkness of the room. As I
grew older I began to experience night terrors, those situations
where you wake up but you can't come to full consciousness and
there is a terrible weight on your chest and a feeling of
impending doom or death (and it is an absolute certainty that
something is approaching- something is JUST outside the door).

After one particular night terror, I woke fully (and trembling)
and started back to bed. Once there I had a CLEAR memory of two
large but squat creatures dressed in dark clothing walking into
my room followed by a tall gray. I think I dreamt it while I was
in and out of my night terror, I don't know.

Now on to the sighting. I don't recall a good deal of it. For
some reason my whole memory of it is fuzzy. I drove north on
Interstate 10 from San Antonio, turned at Comfort, TX., on my
way via back roads to my parent's place in Centerpoint, TX. My 3
year old daughter was with me. I am not sure what time of the
year it was (which to me is one of the strangest things about
this sighting- I put it out of my mind fairly quickly after
experiencing it).

Anyway, I do remember that it was late afternoon/early evening.
The sun hadn't quite started going down yet. They sky was really
blue and their were few clouds (once again, certain things I DO
remember). As we drove along behind a lady in a car (my daughter
in the front seat of my truck) I suddenly saw sparks in the sky
through my windshield. At the same time, the lady in front of my
suddenly slammed on her brakes and pulled over. I pulled over as
well (behind her) and was about to get out and ask her what was
wrong when I saw her pointing up into the sky (we were headed
roughly west and she was pointing up and slightly to the
northwest).

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----

Toronto, Ontario Cylindrical Objects

Date:  June 26, 2004
Time:  1:45 p.m.

Location of Sighting: Vicinity of Markham Road and Lawrence Ave.
Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 2
Shape of objects: Cylindrical

Full Description of event/sighting: Relaxing in my in-laws
backyard on a lawn chair watching my three children play, I
leaned back and gazed up at a very clear blue sky adorned with
clusters of white clouds. I noticed a large off-white cylinder-
type shape steadily moving towards the east at a constant rate
of velocity. Periodically it would fly through grouped clouds
and then re-emerge. I watched it until it vanished off in the
distance some 90 or so seconds later. Unlike commercial
aircraft, this object emitted no sound, exhaust or vapor trail.
Based on my estimation of its altitude it appeared to be five to
6 times the length and width of a typical 747.

Approximately 30 minutes later, my brother in-law pointed out a
small but distinct silver-grey disk-like object hovering towards
the south-east. This second object was not moving in any
direction, nor was it shrouded in cloud. The second sighting
lasted approximately 2 minutes and merely vanished !

Over the years I have looked up and seen hundreds if not
thousands of conventional aircraft. What I saw on that clear
June day was nothing short of compelling. These two sightings
were not conventional aircraft.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----

Alpine, Texas Meteorite Crashed Through Home (Photos)

Date:  August 29, 2004
Time:  Approx: 4:00 a.m.

On August 29, 2004 at approx 4:00 a.m. a 2 pound very weird
meteorite hit our house in Alpine, Texas, my Dad and I were
about 10 feet from where it went through the roof board and
struck the garage door, scarred the hell out of us, do you know
of any reported fireballs over Texas on this date and time,
please let me know, thanks

Thank you to the person for sending along the photos.

Pictures can be viewed at:
http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=18
71

-----

Kaufman County, Texas Brilliant High Flyer (Video/Pictures)

Date:  September 16, 2004
Time:  Approx: 6:00 p.m.

I caught another High Flyer yesterday, (day light) I've been
after him for about two weeks now. Where I usually set up just
about the same time I'll look up and there he is. I got about 2
or 3 seconds of him about six days ago and he went behind a tree
and I lost him. I saw him sooner yesterday and got 20 or 30
seconds before he went behind the tree.

Additional Information:

I've been trying to capture this object I've been seeing for
about two weeks now. I call it the High Flyer because it's
probably six or more miles up. I haven't heard a noise from it,
but have seen it luckily about three times. It comes over close
to the same time (about 6:00pm) or at least that's when I've
been seeing it. On 09-10-04,I captured about 5 or 6 seconds of
it, and on 09-16-04, I finally got about 20 or 30 seconds of it.
I guess because of all the hurricanes, we've been having mostly
clear days here, which is very unusual for here. Anyway this
thing comes from the northeast going southwest every time I've
seen it. With the naked eye it looks like a point of light in
the blue sky. It moves pretty fast, I'd guess about 5 or 6
hundred miles per hour. It doesn't appear to have wings that I
can see. I'm sending you a clip of it to see what you think

Thank you to the witness for the report, pictures and video
footage.

Video clip Kaufman County Texas High Flyer 9.57mbs

Video clip can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1873

-----

Kaufman County, Texas Object And Small Aircraft

Date:  September 17, 2004
Time:  Between 7:30 p.m. and 8:00 p.m.

Hi Brian

This is another one I caught between 7:30 and 8:00 p.m. on 09-
17-04. I was taping this small plane when I noticed this orb
either was coming down or going west, I really couldn't tell.
This was very unusual to capture a white orb this late in the
evening that was moving. It was mostly clear this evening with
lots of planes and things in the sky, a very good day for
skywatching here. I'm sending you a clip of it for your
analysis.

Thank you to the witness for the report, pictures and video
footage.

Video clip Kaufman County Object And Small Aircraft 1.45mbs

Video clip can be viewed at:

http://www.hbccufo.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1868

-----

Bettles, Alaska Humming Form UFO

Date:  September 17, 2004
Time:  2:30 a.m.

Witness' narrative:

"I live in a remote town in northern Alaska. After having dinner
at a friend I went home. My place is located about two mile
south of town. There is a airport located there and a rotating
beacon for the airport. I have lived here for nearly thirty
years. Being located away from town it is extremely quite with
very little noise. I went to sleep around 11:00PM. I was awaken
by a humming sound that was not real loud, almost like a
fluorescent lamp with a bad ballast. I thought it was my
inverted down stairs and got up to see if something was wrong.
As I was laying in bed I could see the light from the airport
beacon flashing in the north window. I sat up and noticed red
and white lights flashing on the trees thru the east window. I
thought it might be some of the locals stuck in my driveway and
the red and white lights were from the rear of the vehicle. I
then got out of bed to look out the window facing my driveway.

I never even looked down as I immediately seen the source of the
lights. Just above the tree top was an object just hanging there
not moving. My best estimate it was about 20 to 30 feet across
and about 6 to 8 feet thick. It was more or less disk shaped
from what I could tell. The upper part of the object was dark
while the bottom had red and white lights that flashed in no
apparent pattern but random. I stepped back from the window and
grabbed the phone to attempt to call the local weather service
as they were staffed 24 hours a day. I was able to get someone
and told them to look towards my house and see if they could see
what I was seeing. Due to the trees in his area he was not able
to see my house. I kept thinking to myself that this can't be
happening, this is not real. After maybe a minute on the phone I
was becoming desperate to get someone to see this and not just
me.

I then contacted another person I thought might be able to see
my place. Again due to the trees surrounding his place he could
not see my place. By now I had become very disturbed or a better
word I was scared. I stood in the middle of the room not know
what to do. It must have been two minutes by now and the object
began to move toward the house. As it passed above the house it
again stopped. It seemed to just stay there for a long time then
suddenly there was an extremely bright white light that scanned
the entire yard and house three or four times. It stopped and
didn't move for a few seconds and then started moving to the
south slowly. I didn't move till I could no longer see any
lights outside. I then informed the other party that if he did
not hear from me in two minutes to come looking. I then dressed
grabbed a firearm and flashlight and went down stairs. I went
outside looking for it but it was gone. I then quickly drove to
town and stayed at the weather station till morning light."

Investigator's note:
The object's size, as judged by the witnesses from its movement
over nearby trees, was 20-30 feet by 6-8 feet, and was within 50
feet of the witness. It was disc-shaped, dark on top and
illuminated on the bottom. The witness was contacted on
September 20, 2004, and was in good spirits but still shaken by
the event. "I just keep thinking It couldn't have been real.
Things like this don't exist.'"

Thank you to Chris Rutkowski for this report.

Chris Rutkowski
Ufology Research of Manitoba
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7998/

-----

Denver, Colorado Numerous Objects

Date:  September 17, 2004
Time:  4:30 p.m.

About 4:30 PM yesterday (17th) I needed a break from the
computer and went outside. I noticed a contrail to the West,
waited a bit to see if it would turn into a chemtrail. At this
time it was about 6 inches long. It was high and I couldn't
really make out the plane, as the sun was nearby. All of the
sudden the contrail went "poof" and disappeared. I thought the
plane had too, but as I watched the plane did appear and fly
high overhead. It was white and had a military look about it, no
contrail. As I watched it pass nearly overhead, I all of a
sudden noticed something round and shiny approaching closely
from the North. It was at about the height that planes are
taking off from nearby Denver International Airport as they go
over my house. This ball seemed to turning over and over, I am
not sure if it was a ball or a disk. As it rolled around it
would flash light from the western sun. it passed directly over
head and then one at a time 2 more appeared. The 3 of them
appeared to be playing with each other, changing directions many
times. I was entertained for about 5 minutes. They could have be
morphing, but I think they were just rolling about. That is why
I am not sure of the exact shape. But it was delightful to
watch.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

-----

Chandler, Arizona Weather Balloon Spotted

Date:  September 17, 2004
Time:  9:00 a.m.

Brian, I work for (removed) at their Chandler, AZ facility. One
of the engineers I work with spotted the weather balloon at
sunrise when it took on an eerie glow. I was on my way back from
my morning break at about 9:00 a.m., when he pointed the balloon
out to me. We looked at it for a few minutes and went on to our
regular duties when I had an idea. I called the engineer to ask
if he could get a hold of the digital camera we use to document
equipment changes and set ups when he told me that he had found
out it was a weather balloon launched by ASU! Your story states
that it was launched from New Mexico. Seems like there was a lot
of confusion at the time. Incidentally, I heard on the news last
night that a hurricane was moving into the Baja area and were
are expecting rain here today and Sunday. I wonder if the �calm
before the storm� contributed to the balloons lack of movement.
Thanks for the story and photos.

Thank you to the person for the report.

-------
Oshawa, Ontario Round Circle Of Light

Date:  September 20, 2004
Time:  10:30 to 10:45 p.m.

Location of Sighting: In Oshawa at the lake park.
Number of witnesses: 2
Number of objects: 1
Shape of objects: round circle of light centre was blue sky,
reminded me of what a solar eclipse looks like at its peak with
the outer ring of light.

Full Description of event/sighting: My mother and I were
watching a small plane go by and head back north to the airport.
While we were looking up but turned to look south east we saw
this circle of light, blue sky in the centre.  We took pictures
and watched with binoculars.  It was quite far but with the
binoculars the circle was quite bright, reminding me of a solar
eclipse.  We watched for close to 15 minutes as it moved slowly
across the sky to the east and then disappeared.  There was a
trail of exhaust from the small plane.  The circle was near the
exhaust but didn't lose its shape like the exhaust.  I have four
pictures with the circle.  It may be nothing but I'm curious as
to what it was.

Thank you to the witness for the report.

Brian Vike
 Director HBCC UFO Research
Home Phone 250 845 2189
email: hbccufo.nul
Website: http://www.hbccufo.com
Redirect: http://www.canadianufo.com
HBCC UFO RESEARCH Newsletter at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HBCC_UFO_Newsletter/








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   Sep > Sep 21

                     Five New Canadian Sighting Reports

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:17:12 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:35:00 -0400
Subject: Five New Canadian Sighting Reports


Here are details for five sightings between Friday, September 17,
and Sunday, September 19, 2004.

================================================================

Toronto, ON
September 17, 2004
Daytime sighting

Young boy and classmate said they saw a "half circle with many
lights." The object had "a cross on top and two horns' sticking
out the top ends."


Les Escoumins, PQ
September 17, 2004
6:40 pm

Witness observed a stationary object for two to three minutes.
The object had "many lights of high intensity." After 2-3
minutes, it "quickly disappeared heading west." Reported by
Maritime Observation Centre to Montreal ATC.


Whitby, ON
September 19, 2004
1:30 pm

Police constable and three other witnesses watched a
semispherical silver object sparkled as it flew slowly across
the sky. The object was in view for eight to ten minutes before
it flew into the glare of the Sun and was lost to view.


Dryden, ON
September 19, 2004
8:30 pm

A witness was sitting on his deck at Thunder Lake near Dryden
when he saw a stationary, bright red light just above the
treeline to the east. A second object appeared just above the
first, then both lights turned a brilliant green. After five
minutes, both lights suddenly disappeared.


Montreal, PQ
September 19, 2004
10:30 pm

A witness watched a horizontal, rectangular object with "white
windows" on its underside, with multicoloured flashing lights.
It was stationary in the south over an industrial complex for 1
1/2 hours. Then another light "appeared from nowhere and entered
the object." The main object then "danced slowly" over the
industrial park and then began to move towards the witness'
condominium. The object crossed the St. Lawrence and was nearing
the north side when the witness became frightened and closed the
drapes, then went to bed.







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   Sep > Sep 21

               Astronomer UFO Sightings [Was: UFOs + ECHELON]

From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:36:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:39:47 -0400
Subject: Astronomer UFO Sightings [Was: UFOs + ECHELON]


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:51:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON

>"The interesting thing is that no amateur astronomer - a person
>who would be knowledgeable about the sky, has ever photographed
>or videotaped a classical UFO." --Steve

List,

Here's one

"Jose Bonilla, chief astronomer, photographs a fleet of 400+
disks 200,000 km out, flying towards the Moon - 1883"

Account at http://www.perceptions.couk.com/uef/first.txt


Cheers,

Ray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








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   Sep > Sep 21

                         Re: New Orb Images - Shell

From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:16:02 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:44:38 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Shell


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:46:46 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>For a rare case of an orb visible and photographed during the
>daytime (clearly not flash orb) visit:

>http://brumac.8k.com/ORedSphere/ORedSphere.html.

The thing that's always interested me in this photo is not the
red "orb" but the other color anomaly in the photo. It's a
blue-green "orb" in the upper, left-hand corner of the photo
approximately an inch and a half over and one inch down from
the top.

I don't see any other colors like it in the photo, and was
thinking that if this odd color is there, then perhaps there was
some kind of processing error, despite  what the witness says.

Just an observation.








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                   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:44:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:09:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Hall


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:07:23 -0500
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:03:29 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:42:11 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>>Later in Budd's abduction career, he was closely observed
>>>(during his work on the "Witnessed" case) by two highly
>>>professional psychotherapists, one of whom has been awarded the
>>>Macarthur Prize, one of America's highest intellectual honors.
>>>I've spoken to both these people. Neither agrees with Budd's
>>>conclusions - neither believes that aliens (little, grey, or
>>>otherwise) are abducting people. But both told me that they
>>>admire Budd's methodology, and find it highly professional. I
>>>published this in my IUR study of the "Witnessed" case, so it's
>>>part of the abduction record.

>>If these people don't believe Budd's nonsense about aliens
>>abducting people how can they describe his methodology as "highly
>>professional"? It doesn't make sense.

>There it is, succinctly stated above, the problem with
>pelicanism, magonia faction, in a nutshell:

>(1) Anything that Harney and gang don't agree with is
>"nonsense," period. Either John can cram it into a convenient
>ideological container, or it's to be ridiculed out of
>contention.

>(2) Since theory is everything, it is therefore impossible not
>to have a firm - and, to the point, orthodoxy-affirming -
>dismissive view of heterodox testimony. After all, puzzling
>data with no theory to crush them can only provoke dangerous
>levels of cognitive dissonance, with attendant intellectual
>meltdown, in the sensitive pelicanist, and we surely can't have
>that, can we?


Jerry,

Magonain truth is set in concrete, not to be assailed by data.
If you think otherwise, you are daft, unprofessional, and other
epithetical things. The concrete consists of hardened pelican
guano which wards off all dissenting arguments.

 - Dick










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                     Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:12:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:19:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - King


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul,  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:59:37 -0300
>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON

<snip>

>I meant to mention earlier that which will come as no surprise
>to many in the field of UFO research that Clyde W. Tombough, the
>astronomer who discovered Pluto in 1930 after 11 years of poring
>through endless photographic plates using the blinking process,
>had a UFO sighting on August 20, 1949 which he claims changed
>his opinion of the phenomenon in a matter of minutes. He had
>three different sightings-without the use of an optical aid- and
>claimed the following:

>"I have seen three objects in the last seven years which defied
>any explanation of known phenomenon, such as Venus, atmospheric
>optic,  meteors or planes.I am a professional, highly skilled,
>professional astronomer. In addition I have seen three green
>fireballs which were unusual in behavior from normal green
>fireballs...I think that several reputable scientists are being
>unscientific in refusing to entertain the possibility of extra-
>terrestrial origin and nature."

>He died in the Fall of 1997 and was the only astronomer to have
>discovered a planet in the solar system in twentieth century.


Don,

While I fully accept Tombough's data, the cited quote
specifically noted amateur, not professional, astronomers. I
assumed a point was being proferred by Steve that removed
professionals from the discussion. That could be an erroneous
assumption however.


Best,

Kyle







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               Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:29:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:42:45 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:00:01 -0400
>Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)

<snip>

>Kyle,

>I had to look up "charismatic" and find out the actual
>definition, and found that it means:

>1. Of, relating to, or characterized by charisma: "the warmth of
>a naturally charismatic leader" (Joyce Carol Oates).

>2. Of, relating to, or being a type of Christianity that
>emphasizes personal religious experience and divinely inspired
>powers, as of healing, prophecy, and the gift of tongues.

>However, I'm not sure which one applies with regard to your
>usage.


Hi Steve,

Perhaps my use of the word charismatic was unduly vague. A
better word might be seductive, as in one who makes statements
to those who might be predisposed to believe them, or at least
embrace them, thereby seducing them into a belief system that
addresses their desire for closure, but which ignores numerous
other possibilities.

When I think of charismatic as I intended, I think of Jim Jones,
Hitler, and the legion of con men who prey on people's fears, or
ego, or desire for understanding of extraordinary experiences.
Zetatalk ranks as a recent incarnation.

Another example is the UFO Twins, who will be guests on C2C
tonight. Their web site attempts to explain hurricanes as
punishment for early American slavery, and suggests that apology
and compensation could stop them. I think this message would be
seductive to some.

My personal experience with the Baptist church involves both of
your definitions, by the way. *LOL*

Thanks for keeping me on my toes!


Kyle








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   Sep > Sep 21

                   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:39:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:39:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - King


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:07:23 -0500
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:03:29 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:42:11 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>>Later in Budd's abduction career, he was closely observed
>>>(during his work on the "Witnessed" case) by two highly
>>>professional psychotherapists, one of whom has been awarded the
>>>Macarthur Prize, one of America's highest intellectual honors.
>>>I've spoken to both these people. Neither agrees with Budd's
>>>conclusions - neither believes that aliens (little, grey, or
>>>otherwise) are abducting people. But both told me that they
>>>admire Budd's methodology, and find it highly professional. I
>>>published this in my IUR study of the "Witnessed" case, so it's
>>>part of the abduction record.

>>If these people don't believe Budd's nonsense about aliens
>>abducting people how can they describe his methodology as "highly
>>professional"? It doesn't make sense.

>There it is, succinctly stated above, the problem with
>pelicanism, magonia faction, in a nutshell:

>(1) Anything that Harney and gang don't agree with is
>"nonsense," period. Either John can cram it into a convenient
>ideological container, or it's to be ridiculed out of
>contention.

>(2) Since theory is everything, it is therefore impossible not
>to have a firm - and, to the point, orthodoxy-affirming -
>dismissive view of heterodox testimony. After all, puzzling
>data with no theory to crush them can only provoke dangerous
>levels of cognitive dissonance, with attendant intellectual
>meltdown, in the sensitive pelicanist, and we surely can't have
>that, can we?


Jerry,

You make a very good point. After all, lots of scientists
disagree with conclusions of others while fully agreeing that
the methods used to reach said conclusions are highly
professional. Debate hinges on just such conditions. Reasoned
debate, that is.

Experiments support theories or they do not. Results do not
prove anything, especially when interpretation of results is by
fiat a subjective endeavor. And to qualify a scientists work as
nonsense, one is disqualified from reasoned debate of the topic.
Why? Because the one qualifying has already passed judgment. He
has removed any chance of being persuaded, because he is already
convinced. What is there to debate? Why debate nonsense?

It seems pretty clear to me that to say that "questioning the
conclusions while agreeing that the method is highly
professional makes no sense" is ridiculous out of hand. It
happens every day in any number of disciplines. It is the basis
of nearly every debate on this forum, as well as others.

One does not have to agree with Hopkins' conclusions to agree
that his methods are highly professional. I'm baffled that
someone would even make such a statement.


Kyle










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                  Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) -

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:43:20 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:43:30 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) -


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:24:41 -0500
>Subject: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)

>>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:07:30 +1000
>>Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)

>>What are you driving at? I agree with some of your above
>>comments, but what has it got to do with my earlier statements?

>>And who said anything about a charismatic message?

>>Isn't the desire to know what is going on one of the driving
>>forces behind many researchers interest in the UFO subject?

>>Sorry, I think I've missed your point.

>I meant no offense. I was only offering a word of caution.
>quote from John Mack was the kind of charismatic statement which
>can lead some to fall into a way of thinking that lends undue
>weight to the charisma of it while obscuring the true meaning of
>it.

>When someone experiences trauma, it is not unreasonable to think
>they may want to find a meaning in the experience. Such persons
>are vulnerable to being misled.

>I'm not saying that Dr. Mack is misleading anyone, but I
>reiterate my warning that believing a charismatic message can be
>a dangerous thing.

>By charismatic, I mean a message which sounds plausible on the
>surface, but which is actually just one among many possibilities
>that aren't mentioned. People who have experienced something
>they feel is extraordinary tend to accept extraordinary
>explanations over the alternative. There are those out there who
>would, could, and have preyed on such people.

>Caveat Emptor!

>More specifically, I was drawn to the first words of the Mack
>quote you alluded to..."in the end...". It is this implication,
>that his statement is the final word, that moves beyond helpful
>counsel and into the area of charismatic, declarative truth. The
>statement clearly dismisses other possibilities, while sounding
>very satisfying. There is a danger there, as I mentioned.

>While I have never met an abductee, I have talked to someone who
>witnessed a UFO at very close range, and who was physically
>injured by it (burns, numerous health problems which defy common
>explanation, etc). She had no feeling that she was being
>"enlightened" in the mystical sense. She felt she had been in
>the wrong place at the wrong time.

>However, I must admit that her "duality" has indeed collapsed.
>She passed away some years ago...ill and with no sense of
>connectedness that made her feel better about it.

>If abductions are an effort to enlighten, why is it done without
>explicit consent? Why not abduct those who are eager for the
>experience? Is our future one in which we travel the galaxy,
>kidnapping people in order to show them the truth? I think
>that's a stretch at best, but it can, and has been, stated in a
>very charismatic way.


Kyle, Whoa there boy!

You seem to be reading a lot into this, but heck, lets go with
the flow. By the way, I wasn't offended by your comments just
confused.

I agree people can be quite vulnerable when enduring ordeals
therefore open to skewed perspectives.

But who deems perspectives as skewed?

Are theirs, are ours, are Mack's?

I have my own view on abductions which is based on my
interpretation of the events as reported, but it's highly likely
that it is incorrect. Whose view is correct then?

Mack's quote again:

"In the end, the abduction phenomenon seems to be a part of
the shift in consciousness that is collapsing duality and enabling
us to see that we are connected beyond the Earth at a
cosmic level." - Dr John Mack

I find Mack's comments far from charismatic here although it is
open to our individual interpretation once again. I have indeed
observed the abduction experience (whatever it is) to shift
people's consciousness and, in my opinion generally for the
better, but certainly it changes into something different.

What is he suggesting we are connected to? Well that's open here
but perhaps we would understand his reference if this quote were
in context.

Personally, I have gleaned from many experiencers I have spoken
to over the years that they develop a strong sense of
connectedness to everything, the universe included.

So I think Mack's statement is spot on here.

I don't think abductions are an effort to enlighten anyone!
Who said that? Not me!

From my observations, any enlightening achieved is purely on the
effort of the abductee in spite of their experiences. In fact,
these changes can occur to people who undergo any sort of
trauma, earthquakes, cancer, car crashes etc.

However, what the "information download" is all about during
some experiences, I haven't got a clue. Meaning here, that some
experiencers report all sorts of technical information that
doesn't seem to make sense in our science. Corn-fusing!

Just an aside here, I believe genuine abductees consciousness
expands so they can integrate their extraordinary experience(s)
and in doing so they also seem to improve their compassion,
tolerance, materialistic tendencies, tempers and many other
things that personal development books cover.

I, like many others, hold those changes in high regard but it is
only because of the value our western culture places on those
qualities and I have been immersed in them for a lifetime.

Can anyone tell me how abductees from other cultures appear
changed in consciousness? Are these changes cross-cultural?


Sheryl










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                                  Docugate

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:10:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:47:42 -0400
Subject: Docugate


I presume the similarities between the CBS Docugate and UFO
research into documents are apparent to readers of this List.

The Washington Post posted, on its web site, an excellent
technical analysis of the disputed documents, comparing them to
a definitely, real, document. This involves format, content and
typewriter capabilities.

Of course, in this case they have living witnesses to talk to
whereas, in the case of the Eisenhower Briefing Document, the
Truman Memorandum, etc... there is no one to talk to.








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                  Great UFO/ET And Earth Mysteries Congress

From: Tom Benson <sparkle.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:04:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:52:29 -0400
Subject: Great UFO/ET And Earth Mysteries Congress


Dear List:

The subject Congress will meet on November 6 & 7, 2004 at The
Days Inn, Route 206 & NJ Turnpike Exit #7 North, Bordentown, New
Jersey. Saturday speakers include:

Jaime Maussan - The Big UFO & ET News From Mexico and The Big UFO
& ET News From Mexico (Continued) - 2 presentations.

David Huggins - A Lifetime of Abduction Experiences

James Courant - Commercial Pilot Researches UFO's

Sunday speakers include:

Rob Swiatek - The 1952 Washington, D.C. Sightings

Harold Egelyn - Close Encounters from S.P.A.C.E.

Anthony & Lynn Volpe - How the Space People Interact With Us

T. Peter Park - Little Men, Mini-Men. and Frog-Men

For more information on registration, etc., please check
website:

www.drufo.org

Biographies on speakers will be posted later.


Tom Benson

for

Pat "Dr UFO" Marcattilio








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                   Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:46:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:55:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting - Maccabee


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:14:49 -0400
>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 22:36:02 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted Sighting

<snip>

>>In summary, there is not enough reliable quantitative data in
>>he Chiles-Whitted case from its short duration of 5-10 seconds
>>o exclude a bright meteor fireball, and it should not be used
>>as a strong case or best evidence for UFO reality.

>The preceding detailed analysis of the CW sighting of a "meteor"
>should be compared with the 2 1/2 - 3 *minute* sighting of
>"remarkable meteors" from the deck of the the ship U.S.S. Supply
>in Feb. 1904. The witness statements imply that the "meteors"
>were seen below the clouds and subsequently soared upward
>through the clouds and changed direction. Although an argument
>has been made that these were, in fact, meteors (Barry
>Greenwood), upon analysis the meteor explanation , IMHO, falls
>apart. See

>http://brumac.8k.com/RemarkableMeteors/RemarkableMeteors.html

>My MUFON symposium paper on this case will be posted soon.

Go to:

http://brumac.8k.com/RemarkableMeteors

and open the folder RemarkableMeteors2003.

Open the MUFON paper file, copy it and paste it into a word
processing program to read it. You can also look at the figures
which are mentioned in the text.








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               Re: Fireball Crashes Behind Argentine Glacier -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:40:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:58:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Fireball Crashes Behind Argentine Glacier -


>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:26:48 -0400
>Subject: Fireball Crashes Behind Argentine Glacier

>INEXPLICATA
>The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
>September 16, 2004

>Source: El Sureno

>http://www.surenio.com.ar/index.php?s=ARligwdw$$diarios/veo$WWW514sykpc3vct

>Date: September 15, 2004

>Witnesses Claim Seeing Fireball Crash Behind The Martial Glacier

>***In Ushuaia***

<snip>

Listers,

Let us examine how the skeptibunkers would look at this case
if they are true to their methodology. They would say:

Witness testimony is totally unreliable especially when they
are seeing something "incredible."

Witness testimony from scientists that suggest something
incredible are unreliable.

The witnesses really say:

1. Weather Balloons

2. Venus

3. Stars or Constellations

4. It was really an elaborate Hoax

and

5. Even if we can't explain it with some/any explaination at
this time, some day, some time, somebody is going to be able to
explain it way so its a dead issue.....


Cheers,

Robert








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                  Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Reason

From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:44:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:01:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Reason


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:48:38 +0100
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>I have to judge by what they actually write, and they write
>utter nonsense about greys floating through walls to abduct
>people, alien implants, etc.

Brad Sparks recently said something here to the effect that the
ETH in its general form was unfalsifiable, and that people
should try to develop more specific forms of the ETH that could
be tested. I'd be all in favor of this if only I had the
slightest idea how anyone could go about doing it. But I take it
as almost certainly the case that hypotheses about greys
floating through walls to abduct people, alien implants etc are
quite unfalsifiable.

You seem to be saying rather more than this, however, and
claiming that there are good reasons to discard such hypotheses
a priori. To date, though, you haven't provided any good reasons
to back this up - not on this List, anyway.

Some of the phenomena associated with UFO abduction reports can
be accounted for in terms of known psychological processes, but
to account for all of them we would need to postulate additional
psychological processes for which we have only the flimsiest of
evidence, or even no evidence at all. And we have the problem
also that it's hard to estimate the prior probability of any
hypothesis - as I mentioned recently, one could quite reasonably
argue that the prior probability of the ETH was 50% or more.

The argument you present here (insofar as it's an argument at
all) rather resembles what in consciousness studies is sometimes
called a "boggle" argument, in that it asserts that some
proposition cannot be true because the mind boggles at the
prospect. But "boggle" arguments aren't reliable - one would
surely expect that alien technology would have the capacity to
boggle the mind at least a little - I'm sure you're aware of
Arthur C Clarke's "law" that any sufficiently advanced
technology would be indistinguishable from magic. (Clarke, of
course, is a profound UFO skeptic of the devout kind, rather
than the critical kind.)

>>lose an hour by wandering around aimlessly. This story will
>>cause more sensible readers to wonder, not about "changeable
>>human energy field" (whatever that might be), but
>>whether Wilson is fit to be allowed out on her own.

>>Wouldn't any sensible and responsible person agree that
>>concern for Katharina Wilson's mental health is a rather more
>>constructive attitude than apparently taking her story as
>>being a true account of objectively real events?

I've long since lost track of who actually is supposed to have
written this, but there's simply no way I'm going to buy this as
an expression of concern for anyone's mental health. It looks
much more like a rather odious attempt to exploit the social
stigma against psychiatric disorder for the purposes of
rhetoric.

I haven't read Magonia, so I can't comment on the general
standard of its articles, but from what I see of it here, at
least some of its contributors appear to be representing
themselves as informed commentators on the state of UFOlogy who
adhere to a somewhat higher standard of objectivity and
methodology than is generally the case. However if what I see
here is in any way representative, I don't see that the signal-
 to-noise ratio - in terms of the amount of spin, rhetoric and
innuendo as opposed to evidence and coherent logic - is any
better than in the rest of UFOlogy.


Cathy

[Catherine Reason]








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                     Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:48:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:03:22 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - White


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:31:10 EDT
>Subject: UFOs Bush And CBS News

<snip>

>Could it be the same source? How many times have Ufologists been
>mislead, undermined, curtailed, hoodwinked, bamboozled by
>sources that turned out to have every agenda other than the
>truth?

Joyce Riley is a former flight nurse and activist fighting to
expose the medical crimes which culminated in Gulf War illness,
not the least of which is the extensive use of "depleted"
uranium ammunition, with a dangerous life in excess of a billion
years.

Joyce and her husband Dave host a show titled "The Power Hour"
which is webcast and broadcast via shortwave and AM-FM, their
site being:

http://www.thepowerhour.com

Joyce, a U.S. Air Force veteran, has been investigating the
service record of George W. Bush for the past year, and has many
inside informants in the military.  Earlier this year, one such
informant provided Joyce with the service records of George W.
Bush.

Joyce states this morning that the documents being touted as
"fakes" - _aren't_.

It appears that this flap may be an attempt to cover up George
W. Bush's deserter status, which is quite serious as his
administration is punishing Gulf War II deserters.

If Joyce's information is correct, this has _major_ implications
for UFOlogy, because it shows how total is the government cover
up apparatus.

I am only passing on what I hear on my radio - I cannot defend
Joyce's information personally, so I won't debate this bulletin.


Eleanor White








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                     Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:49:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:05:24 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Kaeser


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:31:10 EDT
>Subject: UFOs Bush And CBS News

<snip>

>It's scary. I wouldn't say CBS jumped the gun and ran with it
>but what we have here is deceit to up-end a news service and
>it's reputation and derail a President's character. It's ironic
>that CBS and Bush are in the same boat. No WMDs and fraudulent
>documents.

It's important to understand that news reporters have to deal
with documents every day and make decisions on their
authenticity. This isn't exactly rocket science and it is
always a very dangerous process when you have a story in mind
and then go looking for documentation to back it up.
Unfortunately, this is often the way documentaries and some
investigative news stories are put together.

>Could it be the same source? How many times have Ufologists been
>mislead, undermined, curtailed, hoodwinked, bamboozled by
>sources that turned out to have every agenda other than the
>truth?

I believe that CBS has identified the "source" of the documents,
and they've acknowledged that there is no provenance for them. I
doubt there is any relation to ufology. Does it really make
sense to put both of these into some sort of conspiratorial
package together?

>We're going to get a lesson in the workings of the press and
>government. It could show us the "mechanics sinister" that hide
>behind the scenes.

>Often the phrase "Keep watching the skies" pops up in ufology,
>coming from that great Howard Hawks' flick, The Thing. Perhaps
>we should be saying instead:

>"Watch your back."

Ufology and CBS do have one problem in common, in that they both
have now been found to draw conclusions from documents that
really have no provenance.However, CBS has taken the step of
acknowledging the problem.

Steve









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                          Re: New Orb Images - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:17:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:08:29 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - King


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:16:02 -0700
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:46:46 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>For a rare case of an orb visible and photographed during the
>>daytime (clearly not flash orb) visit:

>>http://brumac.8k.com/ORedSphere/ORedSphere.html.

>The thing that's always interested me in this photo is not the
>red "orb" but the other color anomaly in the photo. It's a
>blue-green "orb" in the upper, left-hand corner of the photo
>approximately an inch and a half over and one inch down from
>the top.

>I don't see any other colors like it in the photo, and was
>thinking that if this odd color is there, then perhaps there was
>some kind of processing error, despite  what the witness says.

>Just an observation.

Tim,

And a very astute observation at that. My opinion is that the
blue-green effect and the red ball are related.

If you draw a line from the center of the red ball to the blue-
green artifact, and extend that line, you would lead to or very
near the Sun.

Since the house casts a shadow on the ground between itself and
the camera, the sun is ahead and to the left...very nearly on
the line from the red ball to the blue-green.

I suspect lens flare on both counts.

Also, this would explain why the red ball is larger than the
blue-green...the point closest to the source will be smaller
than a point farther away.

Why blue-green and then red?

The sunlight is going through a prismatic effect due to the
surface coating on the lens. The red ball actually fades to
yellow at the lower right...again in line with the sun angle.

If the red ball were an object of mass, the near lower portion
would presumably be in shadow, contrary to what is observed.

This prismatic effect is common when shooting in the direction
of the Sun, and this photo clearly is shooting toward the Sun,
as opposed to away from it.

If the camera field of view were larger, the Sun would be in the
photo. Classic lens flare. It would be notable if it were absent
under such conditions.


Regards,

Kyle







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                 Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:28:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:18:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Lehmberg


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:44:39 +0000
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:07:23 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

<snip>

>Magonain truth is set in concrete, not to be assailed by data.
>If you think otherwise, you are daft, unprofessional, and other
>epithetical things. The concrete consists of hardened pelican
>guano which wards off all dissenting arguments.

>- Dick


...Guano with a high lead and mercury content, peppered with
broken Klass - painful! - and so useless for fertilization,
intellectual or otherwise, I add.

alienview.nul
 www.AlienView.net









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                       Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Rutkowski

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:32:36 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:22:25 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Rutkowski


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:51:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON

>The comment below is from my retired meteorologist and amateur
>astronomer friend, Steve. How true is his statement?

>"The interesting thing is that no amateur astronomer - a person
>who would be knowledgeable about the sky, has ever photographed
>or videotaped a classical UFO." --Steve

How quickly they forget. I challenged debunker Phil Plait about
his Bad Astronomy rant about this as well. He responded by
singling me out for attack, of course.

One can point to the Sturrock Report, but that's about
professional astronomers who have seen UFOs, and not the same
group at all.

Then there's the Gert Herb Report, which specifically looked at
amateur astronomers and found that many of them had indeed seen
UFOs.

But photographing or videotaping them, that's another matter.
MIAC routinely videos fireballs on their all-sky camera network,
many of which are viewable online. Since many of these are seen
by laypeople and reported as UFOs, does that qualify?

The other thing is that many UFO witnesses identify themselves
as "amateur astronomers", and some of these produce photos or
videos of UFOs. Do these people qualify, or do they need to be
"registered" with amateur astronomy organizations?

But the others who responded made the point that there are many
reports made by amateur astronomers on record, one just has to
go looking for them. Their other point is probably the most
salient: that amateur astronomers would hardly be in positions
to photograph close-range UFO phenomena unless their experiences
were occurring within 100 feet or so of their home
observatories. It's like complaining that the police are never
around when you need them, when you're standing on a random
street corner getting mugged. Perhaps amateur astronomers should
spend more of their time at donut shops, too.


Nobody in particular








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                     Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:30:03 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:24:42 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Ledger


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:31:10 EDT
>Subject: UFOs Bush And CBS News

>As you all know the top story is how CBS has now publicly
>addressed their 'lack of confidence' in the documentation that
>lead to their inquiry and broadcasting information regarding the
>National Guard service record of President George W. Bush.

<snip>

I've been out of the loop. Can someone point me to the alleged
document that damnned Bush? How was it proven that the document
was a forgery?


Don Ledger








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                    Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:49:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:26:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Kaeser


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:12:05 -0500
>Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings

<snip>

>While I fully accept Tombough's data, the cited quote
>specifically noted amateur, not professional, astronomers. I
>assumed a point was being proferred by Steve that removed
>professionals from the discussion. That could be an erroneous
>assumption however.


Kyle

I'm curious as to how do you define "professional astromomer"?

It's been acknowledged for many years that a vast majority of
near Earth objects (NEOs) have been discovered by "amatuer
astronomers", who far outnumber the number of paid professionals
in the field and tend to keep more of a watch on the sky.Of
course a major problem is the small section of the sky that
they're examining at any one time, and the fact that their focus
is set to look far beyond the Earth's atmosphere.


Steve








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                     Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:22:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:31:06 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Gates


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:31:10 EDT
>Subject: UFOs Bush And CBS News

>As you all know the top story is how CBS has now publicly
>addressed their 'lack of confidence' in the documentation that
>lead to their inquiry and broadcasting information regarding the
>National Guard service record of President George W. Bush.

<snip>

>Could it be the same source? How many times have Ufologists been
>mislead, undermined, curtailed, hoodwinked, bamboozled by
>sources that turned out to have every agenda other than the
>truth?

Greg, Listers,

Amen to that one. For years in ufology we have had people
(allegedly intelligence community insiders, government sources,
top level informants, and so forth) unloading breathless tales and
stories, everything from the famous intel community insiders who
claimed that there would be mass ET landings in the desert SW
in 1997 to Hoaglands informants claiming an ET landing on a
mountain top in Arizona in Dec of 2000, to more recently Busrich's
alleged tales about being an area 51 microbiologist.

What I always found even more interesting is how people will
purvey these stories without checking them out...meaning
go public without any kind of investigation because the story
sounded right, or the person sounded sincere or whatever.
For example we should quickly skim the CBS case for
illustration purposes.

Now in the case of CBS you have a producer who is a self
proclaimed left winger "with a axe to grind" (this was also
verified by her father on a radio interview not long ago) you
have Dan Rather who made a comment awhile back about how he
hoped to see a Democrat in the White House. You have a supposed
source for the document who is a retired Lt. Col. named Bill
Burkett, a self proclaimed Bush hater. I mention that to
illustrate that you have three people with their own bias
involved here.  Much like UFOlogy where you have people with a
bias and somebody tells them a story that tickles their ears, so
they go with it.

Burkett unloaded the documents on CBS Producer Mary Mapes, and
she supposedly had the documents verified...but the one problem
with the verification was that their own experts tell us that
they said they felt the documents were phoney and told her
that... but never let that get in the way of people with a bias.

So, just like some do in Ufology, unloading the story is far
more important then checking out little things... like facts,
verifying documents and so on.

Then, much like some in Ufology, when doubts are raised and CBS
can't answer it, they still continue to stand by the documents
and stories even when its clear they are bogus.

Now, unlike some in UFOlogy, CBS admits they got stroked and
duped, further we find out that the source (or conduit depending
on if you believe his story now) was a retired Lt. Col. named
Bill Burkett... who now claims he lied about the source of the
documents to both USA Today. Yup, thats right a retired Lt Col
lied and apparently had no problems telling a lie as long as it
suited his purposes... which in the long run of things was not a
terribly important purpose.

I do give CBS credit for admiting that they got stroked and
duped, as I have given Linda Howe credit for writing up the
information she got about Busrich's background from the Georgia
journalist which illustrated that his background apparently
wasn't that of a microbiologist, but a prison guard etc etc.
Linda could have easily have left it alone and dismissed the
information as part of some alleged huge black program cover up,
but she didn't.

So much like Ufology we have somebody with an axe to grind and
unloads a story and alleged documents on other people who also
have a ax to grind and they breathlessly put the documents on
air, even when their own experts cautioned them that they
thought the documents were phony...gee why does this sound
familiar.

Now had Mary Mapes/Dan Rather prefaced the story with terms such
as "alleged documents whose authenticity can't be verified by
experts" or "they came from one source and no other independent
sources can verify them" then the story could have flown a
little bit...although people would have instantly reacted by
saying this is a load of crap. This is the probably the same
reason why some people in UFOlogy don't preface their stories
from alleged confidential informants with things like "alleged"
"can't be verified" and other terms because most people would
then blow it off as crap.

In the case of Ufology, some people, instead of learning from
these experiences, continue to go on unloading tales and stories
they hear from the next person/persons who are claiming to be a
high level intelligence community source without verifying
facts, documents, and so forth.

To also be fair we have also had stories in UFOlogy which have
been dismissed as weather balloons (Roswell) or hoax (Aztec)
which when examined and investigated we find out their is much
more to the story then what has been thought. Many people in
UFOlogy (including myself) blew off Aztec as a hoax, yet in
ground breaking work written up in the recent MUFON journal it
appears there is more to that story then what is on the surface.

Bottom line is every story, no matter what your bias may be
needs to be investigated, checked out, documents verified as
best as possible.


Cheers,

Robert








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                       Re: Some Co-Incidence - Holman

From: Brett Holman <b.holman.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 01:30:19 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:33:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Some Co-Incidence - Holman


>From: Ray Dickenson <editor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:12:29 +0100
>Subject: Some Co-Incidence

>Weird - Swift "guessed" correct number of moons, correct
>(approx.) distances from Mars, correct (approx.) orbit periods
>and hence their correct masses/densities.

No - the mass or density of Phobos and Deimos cannot be inferred
from this data. However, the mass of *Mars* could be inferred
from the orbital properties of its moons, it might be
interesting to do those calculations for Swift's moons and see
if they give sensible answers... I'll try to do this if I find
the time.

>Compounded by Phobos's mass/density being so 'strange' that
some >recent astronomers have suggested that it _might_ have
been >hollow, even artificial.

Well, if by "recent" you mean in the 1960s, before we had seen
the moons up close... I doubt any astronomers would propose such
a theory now. Phobos' density (2 g/cm^3) is not unusual if it
were what it looks like, a captured asteroid. E.g. see:

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/hilton/asteroid_masses.htm

>So - Deimos and Phobos (+ weirdness) PLUS Pluto and Charon (+
>weirdness).

>How came those detailed predictions and attendant weirdness? Any
>ideas?

As far as Swift is concerned, there are some interesting
suggestions here:

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/S/Swift.html

Kepler had put the idea of two Martian moons into circulation
after a mistaken reading of a report by Galileo. I have read
that there was also an idea that as Mercury and Venus had no
moon, Earth had 1 moon, Jupiter had 4 known moons, and Saturn 5
known moons, then Mars, being in between, should have 2 moons
(although it could equally have 3 moons on this reasoning), but
I have not seen any real proof of this. As no moons had been
observed by Swift's time, then it was reasonable to infer that
they were too small and close to Mars to be detected by the
telescopes of his day.

Of course, it has been suggested that the similarity between the
real moons and Swift's moons is due to some sort of information
from extraterrestrials, or perhaps a long-lost advanced
civilisation on Earth. But then instead of having to explain why
Swift was so close, you then have to explain why he was so far
off (by a third to a half when it came to their periods). Any
competent extraterrestrials or Atlanteans should be able to do a
lot better than that. (Perhaps the orbits have decayed since
they made their measurements, that would have been a very long
time ago then.)

As for the discovery of Pluto, it was also just coincidence. I'm
not sure what else it would be. Lowell's orbit was indeed
reasonably correct. But his was only one of several trans-
Neptunian planets predicted or inferred before 1930. And while
Tombaugh was consciously trying to find Lowell's Planet X and
did have his calculations, in the end they were of no use in
actually finding the planet, as Tombaugh photographed the entire
ecliptic (that is to say, the full 360 degree of the band of sky
where most solar system objects are to be found) before he began
examining the plates, so he clearly wasn't relying on Lowell's
calculations.


Brett Holman








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             CCCRN News: Tree Circles Iin Northwest Territories

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:12:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:36:52 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Tree Circles Iin Northwest Territories




CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

September 21, 2004

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


UPDATE - TREE CIRCLES IN NORTHWEST TERRITORIES

An interview with the primary witness, Earl Hope, who first saw
the two circles in tall poplar trees near Nahanni Butte has
provided some further details.

They were first seen by the witness while flying on May 26, not
in August. They have now been listed as two separate formations,
as the second circle is some distance from the first one,
approximately 1 kilometre (0.6 miles). In both circles, all
trees are snapped and flattened radially inward with the tops
pointing toward the centres, lying on the ground "like
matchsticks." The sizes are estimated, as previously reported,
to be approximately 151 metres (500 feet) and 91 metres (300
feet) diameters. Described as "perfect circles" with well-
defined edges and no other damage seen to trees nearby. Witness
did not see anything which looked like a sinkhole or similar
depression in the ground, re the biologist's comments in the
original article:

http://www.nnsl.com/frames/newspapers/2004-08/aug6_04al.html

There is also another report of other similar circles, about 100
kilometres (62 miles) farther north from this location near Cli
Lake. First seen a few years ago but still there according to
another firsthand witness, a member of the local Deh Cho First
Nations community. Three circles closer together, each estimated
to be up to possibly 200 metres (600 feet) diameter, in birch
and mixed trees, again being described as "perfectly circular"
in shape but with the trees flattened both inward and outward.

Efforts are being made to find photographs of these or any other
formations. The witness of the more recent circles near Nahanni
Butte did not have a camera at the time of the sighting, but is
willing to go back to try to obtain photos, possibly within the
next month or so; they are still a fair distance from where he
lives in Nahanni Butte (the closest settlement) in this remote
wilderness location.

While blowdown, where trees are snapped and flattened from
storms, is common in these forest regions, such areas tend to
be, as might be expected, random swaths of damage. The same
applies for twisters or dust devils. Unless permafrost or other
mechanism does somehow play a role, then how to account for the
radial lay or circular shapes?...

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail

To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an e-mail with either
Subscribe CCCRN News or Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the subject
line to: cccrnnews.nul

c. CCCRN, 2004








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                     Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:36:23 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:33:02 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Boone


>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:48:51 -0400
>Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:31:10 EDT
>>Subject: UFOs Bush And CBS News

><snip>

>>Could it be the same source? How many times have Ufologists been
>>mislead, undermined, curtailed, hoodwinked, bamboozled by
>>sources that turned out to have every agenda other than the
>>truth?

>Joyce Riley is a former flight nurse and activist fighting to
>expose the medical crimes which culminated in Gulf War illness,
>not the least of which is the extensive use of "depleted"
>uranium ammunition, with a dangerous life in excess of a billion
>years.

>Joyce and her husband Dave host a show titled "The Power Hour"
>which is webcast and broadcast via shortwave and AM-FM, their
>site being:

>http://www.thepowerhour.com

>Joyce, a U.S. Air Force veteran, has been investigating the
>service record of George W. Bush for the past year, and has many
>inside informants in the military.  Earlier this year, one such
>informant provided Joyce with the service records of George W.
>Bush.

>Joyce states this morning that the documents being touted as
>"fakes" - _aren't_.

>It appears that this flap may be an attempt to cover up George
>W. Bush's deserter status, which is quite serious as his
>administration is punishing Gulf War II deserters.

>If Joyce's information is correct, this has _major_ implications
>for UFOlogy, because it shows how total is the government cover
>up apparatus.

>I am only passing on what I hear on my radio - I cannot defend
>Joyce's information personally, so I won't debate this bulletin.


Wow! Thanks Eleanor White! That's sure a revelation for sure!
I'll go as far as using the "I'll be gobsmacked!" expression :)

We all know of Joyce Riley's work! She's saved a lot of my guys
at the veteran's groups and care facilities. We knew they were
having problems way back when and they always talk about how
listening to the Jeff Rense radio program and listening to Joyce
Riley discuss this problem.

If Joyce Riley has verifiable documents then she'd best get on
the ball and fork them over to the crew at CBS asap. If not CBS
our other pals in the press would want to check them out for
authenticity.

I'm sure Ms. Riley is sincere, but so was CBS. There's an old
trick I learned of in high school from a teacher who had worked
in intelligence. He would take us kids and sit us down and tell
us every dirty trick in the book. One of them was to pass out a
rumor and back it  up with fake credentials, documents,
witnesses. Let the enemy run with it and then pull the rug out.

If the stories of Bush's service are true then it's to be
addressed and handled. If they're not true then they should stop
and stop asap. It's evil to accuse a man of what people are
accusing the President of.

Remember, the President of the United States is still your
employee. If you make a disparaging remark against him you're
still subject to the 'Employer/Employee' conduct laws. ;)


Best,

Greg








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               Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:57:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:36:20 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia) - King


>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:43:20 +1000
>Subject: Re: UFO News 17th Sept 2004 (Australia)

<snip>

>Kyle, Whoa there boy!

>You seem to be reading a lot into this, but heck, lets go with
>the flow. By the way, I wasn't offended by your comments just
>confused.

>I agree people can be quite vulnerable when enduring ordeals
>therefore open to skewed perspectives.

>But who deems perspectives as skewed?

>Are theirs, are ours, are Mack's?

>I have my own view on abductions which is based on my
>interpretation of the events as reported, but it's highly likely
>that it is incorrect. Whose view is correct then?

>Mack's quote again:

>"In the end, the abduction phenomenon seems to be a part of
>the shift in consciousness that is collapsing duality and enabling
>us to see that we are connected beyond the Earth at a
>cosmic level." - Dr John Mack

>I find Mack's comments far from charismatic here although it is
>open to our individual interpretation once again. I have indeed
>observed the abduction experience (whatever it is) to shift
>people's consciousness and, in my opinion generally for the
>better, but certainly it changes into something different.

>What is he suggesting we are connected to? Well that's open here
>but perhaps we would understand his reference if this quote were
>in context.

>Personally, I have gleaned from many experiencers I have spoken
>to over the years that they develop a strong sense of
>connectedness to everything, the universe included.

>So I think Mack's statement is spot on here.

>I don't think abductions are an effort to enlighten anyone!
>Who said that? Not me!

>>From my observations, any enlightening achieved is purely on the
>effort of the abductee in spite of their experiences. In fact,
>these changes can occur to people who undergo any sort of
>trauma, earthquakes, cancer, car crashes etc.
>
>However, what the "information download" is all about during
>some experiences, I haven't got a clue. Meaning here, that some
>experiencers report all sorts of technical information that
>doesn't seem to make sense in our science. Corn-fusing!

>Just an aside here, I believe genuine abductees consciousness
>expands so they can integrate their extraordinary experience(s)
>and in doing so they also seem to improve their compassion,
>tolerance, materialistic tendencies, tempers and many other
>things that personal development books cover.

>I, like many others, hold those changes in high regard but it is
>only because of the value our western culture places on those
>qualities and I have been immersed in them for a lifetime.

>Can anyone tell me how abductees from other cultures appear
>changed in consciousness? Are these changes cross-cultural?

Hi Sheryl,

Perhaps I did read too much into Mack's comment. I have a
comment however.....

Mack states that the abduction phenomena seems to be a part of
the shift.

Note the use of the term *the*. He is not saying that these
people react by becoming more connected, he is saying that the
becoming more connected is part of a thing...the shift in
consciousness, etc.

I read this as a declaration that a shift is in progress. This
is the charismatic, or seductive, or elegant portion of the
statement.

He says there is a shift in consciousness underway, and the
abduction phenomenon is a part of that.

While current world events would argue that we are moving
further and further from any shift in consciousness toward a
collapse of duality, many might find Mack's comment comforting,
satisfying, and perhaps spot on. This assumption, that there is
underway a shift in consciousness, and that abductions are a
part of it, is not easily supportable since as you said, people
react to any number of traumatic experiences by becoming more
insightful, or open-minded, or generous. It is not the sole
province of abductions.

Mack's statement was phrased in such a way that to accept the
seemingly logical part requires silent acceptance of the "shift
in consciousness" part. Charismatic is the word I use for this.
It sounds so seductively modern, or elegant, but it just doesn't
seem to be true. I could be wrong, so I made my comments in a
more general way, not to indict, but to remind that elegant
explanations can harbor little untruths that get lost in the
listener's desire to find truth.

Also, Mack's comment clearly implies that abductions are a part
of his supposed shift...not abductees natural reactions. He even
adds that the shift in consciousness is based on a connectedness
beyond earth. This is not a psychological comment, it is clearly
intended to bring abductions into the realm of New Age
mysticism, and Age of Aquarius cosmic consciousness. Again, I
may be misreading, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect
that some abductees might find comfort in the words,
irrespective of their validity.

I am fully in your camp on lacking a true understanding of the
abduction phenomenon. I have views on it as well, which are also
likely incorrect. My post are directed only at the cited
comment, which I find a little deceptive, though perhaps not
intentionally so. He was expressing a belief. He is entitled to
it, but it should not be taken as anything more. To do so should
be undertaken with the caveats I mentioned before... which was
my point.

I think the evidence clearly shows that the human race is
heading toward a great crisis. I think the evidence shows that
this crisis is underway.

While there may be a shift in consciousness toward a collapse of
duality underway, it would appear to be too little too late to
effect a change in our present course... a collision course
between disparate groups... religious, cultural, economic,
political. Duality seems to be rampant these days in just about
every arena.

Thanks for your comments! We agree in the main. I simply look at
such statements as Mack's with a large grain of terrestrial
salt. I could be cynical, but I think it's a safer bet in these
days of widespread duality, or more accurately duplicity.
Especially when vulnerable folks are involved.


Cheers!

Kyle








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                     Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:12:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:37:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - King


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:49:57 -0400
>Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings

<snip>

>Kyle

>I'm curious as to how do you define "professional astromomer"?

>It's been acknowledged for many years that a vast majority of
>near Earth objects (NEOs) have been discovered by "amatuer
>astronomers", who far outnumber the number of paid professionals
>in the field and tend to keep more of a watch on the sky.Of
>course a major problem is the small section of the sky that
>they're examining at any one time, and the fact that their focus
>is set to look far beyond the Earth's atmosphere.


Hi Steve,

In the post on Tombough to which I was replying, he was referred
to as a professional astronomer. I was not defining the term,
but noting that the quote by Steve was specific in stating what
amateurs had never done. I again assumed that there was a point
to limiting the statements scope to amateurs, although that was
admittedly perhaps a mistaken assumption.

There is no question that amateur astronomers are regarded very
highly by the academic astronomy community, and rightly so. By
sheer numbers they are often able to confirm and even discover
things new to academia. And their abilities and knowledge is not
in question at all in my mind.

I think Steve's statement was silly, but I assumed there was
some point behind it when perhaps this is not the case.

Thanks for the comments!


Regards,

Kyle








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                         Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Holman

From: Brett Holman <b.holman.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:11:48 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:40:18 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Holman


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:51:42 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON

>The comment below is from my retired meteorologist and amateur
>astronomer friend, Steve. How true is his statement?

>Terry

>"The interesting thing is that no amateur astronomer - a person
>who would be knowledgeable about the sky, has ever photographed
>or videotaped a classical UFO." --Steve

Just a few comments on some of the comments about this... I was
an amateur astronomer in my youth and an astrophysics grad
student in the more recent past.

There's certainly no way that professional astronomers could be
categorised as being particularly knowledgeable about the night
sky. Most of them only view it through a telescope, in fact via
a computer screen, possibly on another continent altogether
these days... They'll normally only look at the sky itself to
see if those dreaded clouds are rolling in. They should,
however, be able to recognise common astronomical phenomena and
so on. Non-optical astronomers are even less familar with the
night sky.

The quote of course refers to amateur astronomers, a different
breed. There is of course some overlap, although in my
experience surprisingly little, as some professionals had been
or still are keen amateurs. They do spend much more time
looking at the sky. Contrary to what some have suggested here,
they don't spend all their time looking through telescopes (or
binoculars); for one thing you get serious eye- and neck-strain
if you are doing that 100% of the time, and for another it is
pleasurable just to appreciate the beauty of the entire night
sky.

Plus like the professionals, they are also watching for those
clouds... And there are some activities, such as meteor
watching, for which telescopes or even binoculars are more
hindrance than help. Also, amateurs do in fact use video cameras
for specialised purposes - e.g. taping occultations of stars or
planets by the Moon, eclipses, etc.

In my own experience, most of the few UFOs I ever saw were
during the period when I was an active amateur astronomer. Most
of them I was soon able to identify due to my knowledge of
astronomy or just experience at night-watching - not all were
technically astronomical in origin.

Being an amateur astronomer means you are more likely to see
strange things in the sky. But it's also a good filter for
common IFOs, so those UFOs that amateur astronomers do report
should be especially trustworthy. (Of course there are amateurs,
and then there are amateurs... personally I was a very amateur
amateur!)

I think, though, it would be a huge stretch to claim that *no*
amateur astronomer had ever photographed or videotaped
a UFO - where's the literature search to back up that assertion?
But note that the quote actually refers to "classical UFO[s]".
What does "classical" mean in this context? The author of the
quote may have been thinking of daylight discs or Billy Meier
type photos, rather than the sorts of photos Bruce Maccabee
mentioned.


Brett Holman








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   Sep > Sep 21

                    Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:20:49 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:40:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Ledger


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:12:05 -0500
>Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:59:37 -0300
>>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON

><snip>

>>I meant to mention earlier that which will come as no surprise
>>to many in the field of UFO research that Clyde W. Tombough, the
>>astronomer who discovered Pluto in 1930 after 11 years of poring
>>through endless photographic plates using the blinking process,
>>had a UFO sighting on August 20, 1949 which he claims changed
>>his opinion of the phenomenon in a matter of minutes. He had
>>three different sightings-without the use of an optical aid- and
>>claimed the following:

>>"I have seen three objects in the last seven years which
>>defied any explanation of known phenomenon, such as Venus,
>>atmospheric optic,  meteors or planes.I am a professional,
>>highly skilled, professional astronomer. In addition I have seen
>>three green fireballs which were unusual in behavior from normal
>>green fireballs...I think that several reputable scientists are
>>being unscientific in refusing to entertain the possibility of
>>extra-terrestrial origin and nature."

>>He died in the Fall of 1997 and was the only astronomer to
>>have discovered a planet in the solar system in twentieth
>>century.

>While I fully accept Tombough's data, the cited quote
>specifically noted amateur, not professional, astronomers. I
>assumed a point was being proferred by Steve that removed
>professionals from the discussion. That could be an erroneous
>assumption however.


Hi Kyle,

That's nit-picking, and as I'm sure you've noted, the statement
made by Steve is not true anyway. I've had three cases myself
 in the last four years that were reports made by amateur
astronomers.

See my IUR article, fall of 2002, re the Cow Bay sighting for
example. The witness in this case is an amateur astronomer and
witnessed her monster Triangle UFO during the Persiads Meteor
shower.

Don Ledger










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   Sep > Sep 21

                     Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:51:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:41:46 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Warren


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:30:03 -0300
>Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:31:10 EDT
>>Subject: UFOs Bush And CBS News

>>As you all know the top story is how CBS has now publicly
>>addressed their 'lack of confidence' in the documentation that
>>lead to their inquiry and broadcasting information regarding the
>>National Guard service record of President George W. Bush.

><snip>

>I've been out of the loop. Can someone point me to the alleged
>document that damnned Bush? How was it proven that the document
>was a forgery?

Don, Greg, Et Al,

It hasn't been proven "conclusively" that the docs were forged;
the so-called experts were "split." The "source" (Bill Burkett)
has admitted lying about "his source," and Rather along with CBS
as a whole said that they shouldn't have "aired" the original
story on those merits.

The fascinating, as well as scary phenomenon is the "effect"
that the media has on the public's mindset. In this instance,
the original issues, i.e., where Bush was when he was supposed
to be with NG has been temporarily disregarded in lieu of
conspiracy theories. What was originally "damnation" for Bush,
is now a "golden goose" politically speaking; first the focus
has been taken away from his follies in the NG, and second
anything what comes down the pike will be "suspect," whether
authentic or not.

Not unlike Ufology, where a little "disinformation" is enough to
"cast doubt" on the main issues.

Sadly, politicians don't "act" they "react." They don't do
things because they are righteous (the deeds), they do them
based on "what the repercussions will be."

Finally, the media is the most powerful weapon on earth, and
those that ultimately hold the reins of that weapon are the most
dangerous.

Evidence of that is certainly evident with Ufology, where the
media was used early on to shape the public's mindset to the
phenomenon.

You can view the docs here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml


Regards,

Frank Warren






















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   Sep > Sep 21

                     Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Caput

From: Scott Caput <scaput.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:25:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:42:56 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Caput


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:30:03 -0300
>Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News

>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:31:10 EDT
>>Subject: UFOs Bush And CBS News

>>As you all know the top story is how CBS has now publicly
>>addressed their 'lack of confidence' in the documentation that
>>lead to their inquiry and broadcasting information regarding the
>>National Guard service record of President George W. Bush.

><snip>

>I've been out of the loop. Can someone point me to the alleged
>document that damnned Bush? How was it proven that the document
>was a forgery?


Don, List,

Here is a link to the CBS news coverage of the whole mess. On
the menu bar on the left, you will find links to the documents
in question in .pdf format.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml


Scott Caput








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   Sep > Sep 22

               Shattered Trees Found At Argentine Impact Area

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:47:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 07:49:37 -0400
Subject: Shattered Trees Found At Argentine Impact Area



INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
September 21, 2004


Source: La Otra Realidad
Date: September 20, 2004

Argentina: Shattered Trees Found At Impact Area

Expedition found no craters and the mystery increases

9-20-2004 - (17:05) - The strange object that fell from the sky
a few days ago behind the mountain range of the Martial Glacier,
and which was seen by at least a dozen residents of the city of
Ushuaia, caused damage to at least 150 square meters of forested
area within the National Park, but no visible marks were found
on the ground following the impact. This has increased the
mystery surrounding the celestial event that caused wonder among
the Fuegian population.

The "fireball", described thus by the press to counter act the
lack of scientific details on the nature of the phenomenon,
destroyed a considerable number of trees as it feel toward the
Earth's surface, converting the impact site into a tree-clearing
location. Some trees were sheared off at a height of some eight
meters.

But researchers would like to double-check this information and
shall set out tomorrow toward the site that was first surveyed
by a police patrol that took photos and some soil samples. One
of the investigators to visit the site will be Daniel Acevedo, a
witness to the episode that captured the public's imagination.
He plans to collect samples of the local sandstone to ascertain
if there are pieces of metal or any material foreign to the
Fuegian geography.

Acevedo will visit the epicenter of the crash accompanied by a
forestry engineer who will determine if the condition in which
the trees were found, in an area measuring "more or less forty
meters across", as described by witnesses, correspond to human
intervention, wind action or the consequences of the phenomenon
being investigated.

For the time being, scientists have dismissed the possibility
that it could have been a meteorite, since the impact would have
involved a rock that usually leaves unconceivable traces of its
impact against our planet. Nor have they discarded the
possibility that Earth may have traversed the path of some comet
and that these "fireballs" could be part of the evidence.

The survey headed by experts from the  Centro Austral de
Investigations Cientificas (Cadic) shall be essential to define
the characteristics of the event and put an end to this week-
long mystery.

A five-hour long expedition on foot conducted by Fernando Garcia
and Roberto Ceballos, authors of the photographs published in
today's issue of Botella al mar, verified the existence of
"thirty to forty uprooted trees, some shattered in half and
others exploded, all of them lying on the ground in a south-
north direction."

It would seem that Garcia and Ceballos reached the same spot
discovered by a local police patrol, but with a difference of a
few meters. This means that there are at least two impact sites
and this increases the number of traces of the event to be
confirmed.

It should be recalled that residents of Ushuaia witnessed - on
two consecutive nights - how two strange objects fell to the
ground. Numerous phone calls were made to the Municipal Office
of the Civil Defense and the Police to report the sighting,
which was described at the time as "a multicolored fireball that
fell behind the Martial Glacier."

For more information:

Fuente: http://www.botellaalmar.com.ar/detalle_nota.php?Id=3D270&tipo=3D4


Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Jose Mart=EDnez E.








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   Sep > Sep 22

                Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:35:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 07:51:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - McGonagle


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:39:59 -0500
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

<snip>

>>>>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:42:11 -0400
>>>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>>>Later in Budd's abduction career, he was closely observed
>>>>(during his work on the "Witnessed" case) by two highly
>>>>professional psychotherapists, one of whom has been awarded the
>>>>Macarthur Prize, one of America's highest intellectual honors.

>>>>I've spoken to both these people. Neither agrees with Budd's
>>>>conclusions - neither believes that aliens (little, grey, or
>>>>otherwise) are abducting people. But both told me that they
>>>>admire Budd's methodology, and find it highly professional. I
>>>>published this in my IUR study of the "Witnessed" case, so it's
>>>>part of the abduction record.

>>>If these people don't believe Budd's nonsense about aliens
>>>abducting people how can they describe his methodology as "highly
>>>professional"? It doesn't make sense.

<snip>

>One does not have to agree with Hopkins' conclusions to agree
>that his methods are highly professional. I'm baffled that
>someone would even make such a statement.

Hello Kyle, Greg, Jerry, List,

I find it incredible that anyone can regard Hopkins' technique
as "highly professional" - I watched a television documentary
about abduction (unfortunately I don't recall which one,
probably one of the "sightings" series). In the programme, he
was interviewing a young child, no more than seven years old. He
asked the child "which one of these did the alien look like?"
and proceeded to show him a series of drawings of aliens.

Now, I am no Psychologist, but even I can see how suggestive
this is - first of all, the entity is confirmed as an "alien",
then it is implied that it must look like one of a selection of
drawings of aliens. If anyone doubts that this is what took
place on the video, say so and I shall look through my video
collection and try to identify which programme it was and
provide direct quotes from it.

Do List members consider the above to be an example of "highly
professional" interviewing technique? I certainly don't!


Regards,

Joe








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   Sep > Sep 22

                        Sheaffer Superciliously Silly

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:19:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:19:37 -0400
Subject: Sheaffer Superciliously Silly




Source: CSICOP On-Line

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-07/psychic-vibrations.html


Psychic Vibrations
Toutatis Threatens Totally

Robert Sheaffer

Heads up=97the End of the World is coming again! This time it's
the asteroid 4179 Toutatis, which, according to no less an
authority than the celebrated Swiss UFO contactee Billy Meier,
is in danger of slamming into Earth on September 29, 2004 (see
http://archives.zinester.com/40491/15876.html). According to
NASA, Toutatis will make a close approach to Earth on that date,
passing within approximately one million miles, which is nothing
on a cosmic scale (see http://echo.jpl.nasa.gov/asteroids/
4179_Toutatis/toutatis.html).

But Meier is in contact with the space people from the Pleiades
(he calls them "Plejarans"; I suppose that "Pleiadeans" sounds
too unwieldy). And according to Michael Horn, who says he is the
officially authorized media representative of Meier in the
United States (which so far as I know Meier has never disputed),
the Plejarans have warned that when Toutatis is closest to
Earth, it will suddenly veer off course and head straight toward
us. Horn says that it will require a "pre-emptive nuclear
strike" to keep this multi-kilometer-sized asteroid from
slamming straight into Earth. Before you dismiss this prophecy
as the ravings of a demented man, be forewarned that Meier
claims a long list of successful predictions (no doubt
selectively culled from a much longer list of unsuccessful
ones=97Meier reportedly has written thousands of pages of
predictions). Horn says that Meier predicted back in 1987 that
Islamic fanatics would destroy the World Trade Center in New
York. If true, this information will be of great interest to the
current Congressional investigation into the September 11
attacks: What did Meier know, and when did he know it?

Others are also starting to sound alarm bells. The Web site of
the conspiracy-oriented radio host Jeff Rense carries similar
warnings (see www.rense.com/general50/sep29th2004.htm). There is
even a claim of a secret government missile program to save us
from disaster on September 29. And the biblical prophecy expert
Arnie Stanton suggests that the encounter with Toutatis
indicates that the Second Coming will be just a few months away.
Stanton also warns that a larger, as-yet undiscovered asteroid
will definitely smack into Earth sometime in 2006.

This is the first time to my knowledge that the world is ending
in 2004. The world most recently ended in May of 2003, when a
mysterious Planet X, inhabited by Zetans, was reported to be on
its way to a disastrous close encounter with Earth, moving the
poles and flooding entire countries. The Web site
www.zetatalk.com is still there. It talks a lot about the
disasters expected in 2003 but says nothing about there being a
year 2004; as near as I can tell, their claim is that a
disastrous planetary encounter did occur in 2003, but was
covered up by NASA. Before that, the "planetary alignment" of
May 5, 2000, was threatened as a trigger for all manner of
earthly havoc. And of course, society as we know it ended on
January 1, 2000, when every major computer system in the world
not only failed, but became contagious, infecting even computers
that did not suffer from the Y2K bug. The next scheduled major
world-ending is in 2012, when, according to a number of reliable
experts, the Mayan Calendar simply "runs out," apparently making
it impossible for time to continue.

* * *

During April a major conference on UFOs and "Exopolitics,"
called "the X-Conference," was held near Washington, D.C. (see
www.paradigmclock.com/X-Conference/X-Conference.htm). It
featured the usual suspects sounding alarm bells over supposed
"government cover-ups" of UFO and alien hijinks. However, the
speakers at this conference delved even farther into the vast
conspiracy than anyone has dared to delve before. Phil Corso
Jr., whose late father wrote in The Day After Roswell how much
of our high-technology (such as transistors) was reverse-
engineered from the crashed Roswell saucer, explained that the
Roswell aliens were in fact simply "us" from the future,
returning as time travelers. This he has learned from notes and
manuscripts left by his father, explaining that "we" went back
in time to warn "ourselves" about the nuclear threat.

There was much controversy over the claims of Dan Burisch,
supposedly a Ph.D. microbiologist who has worked on designer
diseases for the military at Area 51 in the Nevada desert=97and
who also studied the extraterrestrial beings in residence there.
Burisch warns of a sinister conspiracy between E.T.s and the
military to develop deadly diseases to wipe out humans that the
conspirators want to be rid of. Burisch is now reportedly in
"lock-down" at Area 51, and is requesting immunity from Congress
in return for his testimony about this nefarious program. Some
of the Ufologists at the conference cautiously supported
Burisch's tales, others supported the stories even more strongly
while accusing the first group of distorting them, and yet a
third faction angrily charged that the Burisch supporters were
disinformation agents charged with "spinning" wild tales to sow
confusion within Ufology. (Ufologists seldom believe that other
Ufologists with whom they disagree are simply mistaken=97they are
usually either pathological liars or government agents.)

Steven Greer was at the conference to talk about his Project
Disclosure, which three years after its much-ballyhooed launch
at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C., featuring twenty
supposedly credentialed military/intelligence/defense-industry
witnesses (reported in this column, March/April 2002) has yet to
present any of its supposedly solid evidence of UFO cover-ups to
any official government investigations. Greer reportedly
acknowledged his disappointment that more progress has not yet
been made, but he kept the faith. However, the defrocked
psychologist Richard Boylan charged that Greer and others are in
fact disinformation agents funded by powerful moneyed interests.
Apparently the purpose of the disinformation must be to keep
Ufologists from finding out what Boylan considers the real
stuff, like alien-hybrid children and "Walk-in" Star Visitors (a
contemporary analog of demonic possession).

For another example of the truly stellar quality of contemporary
"scientific" UFO research (pun intended), see The Lawton
Triangle UFO Hoax at http://ufohoax.tripod.com. In March 2002,
hoaxer Carl Wilson submitted a dubious-looking, indistinct photo
of red and white lights against a black background to Jim
Hickman, a "research specialist" with MUFON, the largest UFO
group in the U.S. He wrote of seeing these lights in the night
sky over Lawton, Oklahoma. Hickman sent a copy of the photo to
Bruce Maccabee, the best-known "scientific" UFO photo analyst,
who has "authenticated" many classic UFO photos such as those
from McMinnville, Oregon, and Gulf Breeze, Florida. It didn't
take long for Maccabee to conclude "unless someone has a better
idea, I would have to classify this as a True UFO (TRUFO), which
might be some sort of Alien Flying Craft (AFC) (or two such
craft)?"

Not content with fooling the "experts" once, a few months later
Wilson submitted to Hickman a similar photo, purportedly of a
UFO seen hovering over Fort Sill, Oklahoma, near Lawton. Hickman
again sent a copy to Maccabee, who could barely contain his
excitement: "Wow! Got to pull out all the stops on this one! A
rare event, two photos of the same (apparently) thing!"

Were these two photos of some alien craft? No, says Wilson: "In
reality, these pictures were nothing more than a picture of
Microsoft Optical Mouse taken with the room lights and camera
flash turned off!" When he revealed his hijinks on the Internet
newsgroup alt.alien.research, many asked him whether he was a
paid government debunker. He replies, "I did it to demonstrate
how easy it is to fool the so-called =91UFO experts' and how
willing they are to take any claim at face value. But rather
than learn from this example, their reaction was one of
hostility." And he reports being harassed in many ways. Wilson
concludes, "Clearly many of those involved with or supporting
=91UFO research' are less interested in =91Finding the Truth' as
they claim, as they are in silencing their critics."

* * *

While NASA continues to glean astonishing amounts of information
about Mars from the Mars Rovers, others are finding plenty of
things in the photos that NASA seems to have missed. Ufologist
George Filer, MUFON's Eastern Director, writes that "Our
examination of thousands of images has led us to theorize that
we might be observing an ancient civilization. . . . Strangely,
the symbols and writing are very similar to English" (see
www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/mar/m10-029.shtml). He
notes that "The symbols or letters A, E, G, H, P, V, and Y have
been found. The Y symbol is the most numerous and often has deep
round holes drilled at the three corners." (The letter B, Filer
reminds us, had previously been spotted by the Viking lander
carved into a rock way back in 1976.) Filer is far from the only
person making such remarkable discoveries. According to a
Knight-Ridder news story of March 6, NASA is being deluged by
supposed "Mars discoveries" from civilians, including stone
tools and dinosaur fossils (see
www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/nation/8124461.htm).

The most dramatic Mars finding would appear to be from the
above-mentioned Boylan: based upon news reports that Mars's ice
caps appear to be melting, he suggests that Mars is being
"terraformed" by alien intelligences to make it more habitable
(see www.drboylan.com/trfmars2.html). Boylan informs us that
"the U.S. has a tiny forward station on Mars, staffed by
astronauts from a secret space program operated by a military
black project agency . . . the Star Visitors [also] have a long-
term presence on Mars." The Mars Society proposes the eventual
"terraforming" of Mars to turn it into another habitat for
humans, but if Boylan is correct, we may arrive there someday to
find the work already finished.

* * *

In the May/June 2003 issue I reported about the giant scorpions
allegedly being bred in Iraq by Saddam Hussein, to be used as
secret weapons. While no giant scorpion bioweapons have yet been
found, the Web site of the Coast to Coast AM radio show carries
a photo of what is alleged to be a "camel spider" supposedly
facing our troops in Iraq. According to one caller to that show,
"They run 10 mph, jump three feet, are a nocturnal spider. . . .
When they bite you, you are injected with Novocain [sic] so you
go numb instantly. You don't even know you are bitten when you
are sleeping, so you wake up with part of your leg or arm
missing because it has been gnawing on it all night long" (see
the purported photo of this critter at
www.coasttocoastam.com/gen/page440.html).

As if to make up for the dearth of giant scorpions, the region
is currently in the grips of UFO fever, with sightings running
at a high pace, especially in Iran. Sa'dollah Nasiri-Qeydari,
head of the Astronomical Society of Iran, told Reuters that
people were probably seeing Venus, which was near its greatest
brilliance in the evening sky. But Michael Salla, author of
Exopolitics: Political Implications of the Extraterrestrial
Presence, begs to disagree. Salla, who was educated in Australia
and has degrees in government and in philosophy, is currently a
Researcher in Residence in the Center for Global Peace, American
University, in Washington, D.C. He suggests that the UFOs being
seen across the Middle East are "very likely related to
Stargate/energy portal activity in Iraq/Iran and the region
generally. It is very likely that the whole region comprising
Iraq/Iran/ Afghanistan is a vast energy portal that was
strategically chosen for this reason as the home base for
extraterrestrials known as the Anunnaki during the Sumerian era"
(see www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-15.htm). The anger of
Moslems over the U.S. occupation is so intense that, according
to Salla, "What they might manifest by all this rage/anger is an
opening of the portals and literally the gates of hell opening
with the return of the Gods=97the Anunnaki=97who take the rage
around the region as permission to intervene and punish U.S.
forces and their allies." But apparently Bush and his fellow
conspirators, who head up a secret "shadow government" in
collusion with extraterrestrials, knew about this all along, and
this was the real reason for the war in Iraq: "it wasn't Oil,
Weapons of Mass Destruction, or the =91War against Terror,' just a
desire to be in Iraq if and when the energy portals/Stargates
became active." He warns, "The ultimate result of
extraterrestrial intervention responding to regional rage
against the U.S. is a military confrontation that could lead to
a domineering extraterrestrial race having a major strategic
toehold in human affairs." And wouldn't that be terrible!







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   Sep > Sep 22

              Robert Sheaffer - Smirks & Sneers From Skeptical

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:06:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:22:55 -0400
Subject: Robert Sheaffer - Smirks & Sneers From Skeptical


UFO UpDates is a den of dimbulb believers it would seem... with
additional irony that those labeled as believers are so labeled
only because they won't believe Mr. Sheaffer... from the last
Skeptical Inquirer.

alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Robert Sheaffer
To:
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:22:05 -0700
Subject: Posting of Copyrighted Article


Dear Mr. Bruce-Knapp:

I do not know if you are aware that Alfred Lehmberg has
apparently scanned and then posted the complete text from my
Skeptical Inquirer article on the Campeche, Mexico UFO Video
(see http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/sep/m22-
004.shtml ). My understanding is that this is against the rules
of UFO Updates, and it is surely violates the copyright law as
well. It should be removed at once, and Mr. Lemberg should be
warned not to do this again.

I am not concerned about my Psychic Vibrations article also
posted, because CSICOP has chosen to put that text on the web,
for anyone to read it. yours sincerely,

Robert Sheaffer










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   Sep > Sep 22

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 38

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:02:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:25:40 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 38


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 38
September 22, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


<snip>


CALIFORNIA'S BIG CITIES
VISITED BY UFOs

      On Sunday, September 12, 2004, Laura Simmons and her
friend "were chatting on the back porch" at her home on
Fulton Street in San Francisco, she reported, "when I
noticed movement in the sky.  It was a silent, abstract
blob almost like the underside view of a manta ray shape,
moving quickly, quietly across the sky.  I have no idea
how high it was so I cannot judge the size."
      She described the UFO as "very large, almost
gossamer, sprinkled with lights but almost like dusted
with a luminous powder.  I can only describe it as if it
were draped in 'star camoflauge' or something.  It had a
swimming-amoeba-like effect.  Sounds silly but it's true."
      "We both drew pictures of our view before we ever
started talking to each other about it, so as not to
influence (each other)," and the sketches "are quite
similar.  We were facing north, and it streaked from the
northwest to the northeast, then disappeared out of view.
It is a clear night tonight and very windy, but around the
thing it seemed kind of cloudy." (Email Form Report)
      The following day, Monday, September 13, 2004, in Los
Angeles, a UFO "appeared from the southeast at 9:05 p.m.,"
M.P. Forman reported, "Witnessed a large, fuzzy, orange
fireball east of LAX (Los Angeles International Airport)
lasting four or five seconds.  Fireball was approximately
10 to 15 miles (16 to 25 kilometers) away, southeast of my
location, and at less than 10,000 feet (3,000 meters),
stationary in the sky and 70 percent of the size of the
full moon."
      "As the fireball dissipated, the color of the shape
became crimson and redder with some 'fire chunks' visible.
Afterwards, I could see what appeared to be a pinpoint, a
pulsating, glowing 'ember' remaining that eventually
disappeared a couple of seconds later.  Whole event lasted
10 to 15 seconds.  Couldn't find any news on it today."
(Email Form Report)


UFO WITH SPOTLIGHTS SEEN
IN AIRDRIE, ALBERTA

      On Sunday, September 12, 2004, at 11:42 p.m., Lindsay
Brown and her companions "were driving south on Eighth
Street" in Airdrie, Alberta province, Canada (population
15,946) "when we noticed a flying object with lights on
the craft and two beams of light projecting a long
distance from the craft.  We continued watching as the
craft approached a small cloud in the sky, and, once the
craft had reached the cloud, the lights became distant
very, very quickly.  The craft had vanished and was
nowhere in sight."
      "Once the craft had disappeared, the cloud itself
diffused into the sky. It was the most bizarre thing I've
ever seen in my life.  The colour of the object was
unknown.  There were several bright white lights along the
frame of the craft.  The two beams of light protruding
from the craft were facing completely opposite directions,
one facing northeast and the other facing southeast."
      "The craft was lower than an aircraft would usually
be spotted flying and appeared to be much larger.  The
initial speed did not appear to be fast at all until the
craft approached the cloud.  By the time the craft reached
the cloud, it was travelling at a high speed."
      Airdrie is on Provincial Highway 2 approximately 18
miles (30 kilometers) north of Calgary.  (Email Form
Report)


SAUCERS UP NORTH

      On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 3:39 a.m.,
eyewitness A.S. was asleep at her home in the Beaumont
Trailer Park on Heyden Street in Sault Sainte Marie,
Ontario province, Canada, at the eastern end of Lake
Superior, when something strange jolted her awake.
      "I was awakened by a weird sensation," A.S. reported,
"I heard a very low humming and felt a weird sensation all
over my body, so I went to go get my brother and could not
find him.  Then I saw the lights flooding through the
windows, and, when I looked outside, they were almost
blinding.  But I was able to see my brother outside,
looking up to the sky, so I ran to go and get him."
      "At first, I thought it was one of them police
helicopters searching for someone.  But once I got a good
look at it, I know it wasn't.  It was much bigger, and it
was shaped like a large submarine but with tons of lights
everywhere.  The bottom of it looked like a star field,
and it had beams of light shining down the middle of it,
in a straight line from one end to the other.  I couldn't
tell which end was the front or back."
      "As this was happening, there was no wind, nor any
kind of sound whatsoever, just the low humming, even
though I didn't know what it was.  I felt very much at
peace and mesmerised by its beauty."
      "The beams of light in the middle of it were moving
in a very slow circular fashion along the ground as if it
were searching for someone.  All of a sudden, my brother
and I heard sirens in the distance, and the lights went
away.  Then we heard what sounded like a really loud
thunderclap, and the craft started to go higher and higher
in the sky until we couldn't see it any more." (Email Form
Report)
      On Saturday, September 18, 2004, at 7:25 p.m., UFO
Roundup editor Joseph Trainor was working aboard a tour
train in northern Minnesota when he spotted an unusual-
looking contrail in the sky to the northwest at an
elevation of about 35 degrees above the horizon.
      "We had completed the train's run-around maneuver at
Palmer's Siding, approximately 17 miles (27 kilometers)
northeast of Duluth, Minnesota, and we were on our way
back to Union Depot," Trainor said, "We were traveling at
30 miles per hour, and I would estimate that we were a
mile or two east of French River, Minn. when I spotted the
contrail.  It was a clear blue sky, no clouds, so the
white plume was quite noticeable.  I also saw that it was
a very short and wide contrail, no more than four object-
sized lengths from the object itself."
      "I observed it with the naked eye for 20 seconds, but
it was too distant for me to make out any details.  So I
grabbed the pair of Sport 4 X 30 binoculars we keep aboard
the train--to spot ships out on Lake Superior--and focused
in on the object.  It was no jet.  What I saw was a
silvery white disc with a fiery red tint around the
leading rim.  I don't know if it was reentry heat or the
glow of the setting sun responsible for the red tint.  The
rear of the disc was totally obscured in white contrail
mists.  They were streaming off the disc, fanning out into
a wide plume, much wider than a normal jet aircraft's
contrail."
      "The object was very high.  I would estimate its
altitude at 60,000 feet (18,000 meters).  It was west of
the train and traveling due north.  The object was much,
much larger than a conventional jetliner.  I would
estimate that the object was at least five times as large
as a Boeing 747 jumbo jet."
      "Our train passed a stand of fir trees, which
obscured my view for five or six seconds.  When I looked
again through the binoculars, the sky was completely
clear.  The object and its contrail were gone.  There is
no way it could have reached the northern horizon in that
brief span of time unless it had suddenly accelerated to a
speed of thousands of miles per hour."
      "Definitely a daylight disc!  That's my fourth UFO,"
Trainor said, adding that he had previously seen UFOs in
August 1963, August 1996 and December 2000.
      French River, Minn. (population 40) is on Lake
Superior's north shore about 340 miles (544 kilometers)
west of Sault Sainte Marie, Ontario, Canada.


LUMINOUS DISC SIGHTED
IN CONWY, NORTH WALES

      On Sunday, September 5, 2004, at about 3 a.m.,
eyewitness G.B. woke up at her home in Rowen, in the Conwy
district of North Wales, UK.  She reported seeing "three
lights, one very intense--not coloured--and two faint
lights.  The intense light and one faint light were in the
same general direction, one much nearer than the other.
Even the nearest must have been some distance away because
it occasionally disappeared behind a bank of low cloud."
      "I woke my husband to see them at 3:05 a.m.," G.B.
added, "We watched the disc-shaped lights through
binoculars.  The faint lights went out soon after 3:05
a.m.  The brightest object disappeared at 3:18 a.m.  It
was not an aircraft or a helicopter."  (Email Form Report)


ALIEN MUMMY FOUND
IN BRAZIL?

      Wilson Estanovic Neto, curator and owner of "the
Wilson Estanovic Museum if Natural History in Uberaba," a
city in western Minas Gerais state in Brazil, "said that
the museum, circus and theater, originally operated by his
ancestor, has covered all the countries in the world.  In
their travels, they (the Estanovic family) has managed to
obtain--through donations--artifacts, ruins and stones of
all kinds which fall from space, as well as other
startling items."
      "A strange piece" has drawn the attention of Planeta
Terra, a South American Fortean research group.  It is "a
rather different mummified skull, similar to an alien--
large-headed, earless, with odd-shaped eyes and mouth.
All of these characteristics were highlighted by experts"
in extraterrestrial subjects.
      "Museum administrators claim to know the provenance
of the skeleton, which was discovered only recently when
they tried to 'de-mummify' the piece, which was probably
acquired in Egypt.  The specimen is on display at the
museum only on Sundays and under guard."
      "According to the owner, at least ten attempts to
steal the item have been made."
      "The skull is about twice the size of an adult human
skull and is out of proportion in relation to the rest of
the body, which measures approximately 50 centimeters (20
inches).  The six-toed foot is also mummified."
      Uberaba is 210 kilometers (126 miles) west of Belo
Horizonte, the state capital of Minas Gerais and 300
kilometers (180 miles) south of Brasilia, the national
capital.
      Commenting on this case, UFO Roundup correspondent
Brunilda Barros said, "I'm not so sure this mummy is from
Egypt.  Uberaba is only 50 kilometers (30 miles) east of
the headwaters of the Rio da Prata.  The Kayapo Indians
might have acquired this strange mummy from the hidden
city of Matalir-Aconcagua in the Planalto (jungles of Mato
Grosso do Sul state--J.T.) and then sold it to Senhor
Estevanovic's ancestors."  (See Planeta Terra for
September 15, 2004.  Muito obrigado a Scott Corrales e
Andreia Xavier por eso caso.)
(Editor's Note:  Matalir-Aconcagua is a reputed hidden
city in Mato Grosso do Sul, still thriving millenia after
the demise of the lost continent of Atlantis.  Colonel
Percy H. Fawcett, his son Jack and Raleigh Rimmell
vanished in the Mato Grosso back in 1925 while searching
for it.)


BIZARRE "TREE CIRCLES"
FOUND IN CANADA

      It's the wildest swerve in the crop circle saga yet--
a bizarre formation of "tree circles" was found in early
August 2004 in Canada's Northwest Territories.
      According to Paul Anderson of Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network (CCCRN), "two large circles in poplar
trees, first reported as a rumour on (Wednesday) September
8 (2004) were found at Nahanni Butte," near Fort Simpson,
N.W.T.  "The circles are estimated to be 151 meters (500
feet) and 91 meters (270 feet) in diameter.  The trees
were apparently flattened radially.  No photos yet.
Investigation in progress."
      A local newspaper, the Deh Cho Drum, confirmed the
find.
      "It certainly is unique and different from most
'standard' crop formations, whether it is a case of
'unusual meterological damage' (as the newspaper stated--
J.T.) or not."
      Fort Simpson, N.W.T. is on the Mackenzie River about
700 miles (1,160 kilometers) northwest of Edmonton,
Alberta."  (See the Deh Cho Drum for August 6, 2004.  Many
thanks to Paul Anderson of CCCRN for this news story.)
(Editor's Note:  Fort Simpson was the site of a massive
UFO flap back in March and April of 1996.)

<snip>

      That's it for this week.  Join us in seven days for
more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-
-UFO Roundup."  See you next time.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul>

UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
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If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 22

                   Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:15:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:27:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Lehmberg


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:12:21 -0500
>Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings

>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:49:57 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings

><snip>

>>I'm curious as to how do you define "professional astromomer"?

>>It's been acknowledged for many years that a vast majority of
>>near Earth objects (NEOs) have been discovered by "amatuer
>>astronomers", who far outnumber the number of paid professionals
>>in the field and tend to keep more of a watch on the sky.Of
>>course a major problem is the small section of the sky that
>>they're examining at any one time, and the fact that their focus
>>is set to look far beyond the Earth's atmosphere.

>In the post on Tombough to which I was replying, he was referred
>to as a professional astronomer. I was not defining the term,
>but noting that the quote by Steve was specific in stating what
>amateurs had never done. I again assumed that there was a point
>to limiting the statements scope to amateurs, although that was
>admittedly perhaps a mistaken assumption.

>There is no question that amateur astronomers are regarded very
>highly by the academic astronomy community, and rightly so. By
>sheer numbers they are often able to confirm and even discover
>things new to academia. And their abilities and knowledge is not
>in question at all in my mind.

>I think Steve's statement was silly, but I assumed there was
>some point behind it when perhaps this is not the case.

>Thanks for the comments!


Has anyone mentioned Dr. Clyde Tombaugh, astronomer (and
discoverer of Pluto), and his definitive sighting, along with
his wife and two daughters, of a silver ellipsoid craft
traveling between 600 and 900 mph? This was in 1947. July
10th. Five O'clock in the afternoon.


alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
   www.AlienView.net









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   Sep > Sep 22

                 Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Scheldroup

From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:34:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:30:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Scheldroup


>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:04:45 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Close Encounter In Alaska

>Interesting Close Encounter In Alaska

><snip>

>Investigator's Note:

>The object's size, as judged by the witnesses from its movement
>over nearby trees, was 20-30 feet by 6-8 feet, and was within 50
>feet of the witness. It was disc-shaped, dark on top and
>illuminated on the bottom. The witness was contacted on
>September 20, 2004, and was in good spirits but still shaken by
>the event. "I just keep thinking It couldn't have been real.
>Things like this don't exist.'"


This description nearly parallels my own sighting back in 1990
while living in a small community of N. Wisconsin.

The line of sight for distance appeared to be more into hundreds
of feet but, with any sort of accuracy that falls short of what
I could determine to be called precisely. It was a dark night
with clear skies although just great for astronomical viewing in
the early hours shortly after midnight.

Just sitting on a lawn chair in the front yard unobstructed by
city lights, suddenly you would have clearly noticed in the
distance by eyesite alone, a strange disk-hub-shaped object
traveling high in the night sky and moving at pretty decent
clip.

While I should mention that this objects plane of view to my
eyesight was at a slight skewed angle downward a couple degrees
relative to my sight. This bottom we shall call it gave off this
glow which partially illuminated the top portion that is the
'hub-disk'.

The strange object but identifiable that is if knew it wasnt
something else, could have been somewhere in the 50 foot
diameter range, it's just to bad that this 'could have been' is
hardly enough for an accurate depiction of size. To be a little
more objective about the whole thing, I will say that it was
dark, and taking into account distance in the night also the
object was in motion, so it would be hard to give better
account.

I sure wish I had been carrying a camera instead of a telescope
that night, while not proof positive that others should believe
this story, more importantly to show myself that I wasn't
dreaming it up. I think I'm sort of scientific guy since early
teenage years but as I sit here today and recollect from memory
a few short moments, it's just so easy to get very very
frustrated trying to describe to others what I think was their
or what I saw late one night, when you would have little or no
physical evidence to back up the story.

There have been a few cases of shall we say un-ordinary objects
actually landing in my territory over the decades according to
eyewitness, and there's no denying that if it happens again, if
it hovers horizontally or stands on end verticlly above the tree
tops or if should make contact with the ground I can confidently
say that me, my cameras and working running tenna shoes will be
ready to shoot the action as quick as action Jackson.

Radiation or no radiation, proving to myself once and for all
that this really weird stuff can happen stranger then any
science fiction that we ever have read before.


Now here's a nightmare

----

I should mention one fear I do have, call it a brief nightmare
or an unhappy dream, this has to involve the landing of an
object whereby I approach it for a closer examination. In this
dream the landing gear touches the ground, I have my camera in
hand when I start a slow walk around the object, when to my
surprise and joy in a few short moments, this door opens up and
I jump up the floor which has no stairs.

While me and my camera are just having a field day, I soon
realize one odd thing, funny but there are no occupants inside
this craft; to think that is odd, so I just gather it must be
some kind of unmanned surveyor, great! there's nobody home, and
I'll just take my pictures and be off like nobody ever noticed I
was here... he, he, he.

A few minutes aboard now, I've taken dozens of pictures then I
pause for a moment thinking to myself, clearly anyone would
gather that nothing lives or could ever travel in this thing,
where did it come from, what was it designed to do, what is it
doing, is it recording something? .

All the sudden, after a minute or so pondering a hidden meaning,
I hear a noise. Did I just hear something I ask?, well there it
is again. Where's that strange sound coming from I ask,.. Oh No!
I shout it's the door it's closing up!., next a humming is
heard; What was that? Oh No! I think that's the landing gear,
it's retracting!

There's gotta be away out of here gotta be a way? Ahh well,...
then I go check out the thing that looks like a control console,
when my confusion is mounting and the nervous sweat pours from
off my forehead, I gaze at the wonders of a touchtone display,
and I ask, are these the selector buttons over here ?; only then
does panic ensue.

The whole console while illuminated in purple with these strange
symbols resemble some type of heiroglyphics. Oh great now how in
the...? am I supposed to read this...? Come on now hurry,
hurry!, No, No! be calm, be calm .. you can figure this out just
relax and think, all the sudden I get this really funny feeling
in my stomach just like that lifting you know when your car goes
over a hill.

The end..

Word of caution: Don't try this at home or at Halloween, your
oxygen supply and destination are unknown.


John







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 22

                     Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:57:12 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:32:33 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Ledger


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:51:06 -0700
>Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:30:03 -0300
>>Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News

>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:31:10 EDT
>>>Subject: UFOs Bush And CBS News

>>>As you all know the top story is how CBS has now publicly
>>>addressed their 'lack of confidence' in the documentation that
>>>lead to their inquiry and broadcasting information regarding the
>>>National Guard service record of President George W. Bush.

>><snip>

>>I've been out of the loop. Can someone point me to the alleged
>>document that damnned Bush? How was it proven that the document
>>was a forgery?

>Don, Greg, Et Al,

<snip>

>You can view the docs here:

>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml


Thanks Frank and Scott for the heads up. More he said, he said
than documents in any event.


Best,

Don Ledger










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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 22

                        Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:13:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:34:27 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee


>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:16:02 -0700
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:46:46 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>For a rare case of an orb visible and photographed during the
>>daytime (clearly not flash orb) visit:

>>http://brumac.8k.com/ORedSphere/ORedSphere.html.

>The thing that's always interested me in this photo is not the
>red "orb" but the other color anomaly in the photo. It's a
>blue-green "orb" in the upper, left-hand corner of the photo
>approximately an inch and a half over and one inch down from
>the top.

>I don't see any other colors like it in the photo, and was
>thinking that if this odd color is there, then perhaps there was
>some kind of processing error, despite  what the witness says.

>Just an observation.

I suppose you are referring to what appears as a sort of
distortion of a small portion near the top left of the bush/tree
with the light green leaves.

Don't know what did that. Don't know that there is a
relationship between a slight greenish distortion and the rather
prominent red "ball" silhouetted against the ground.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 22

                        Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:32:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:37:24 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:17:21 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:16:02 -0700
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:46:46 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>>For a rare case of an orb visible and photographed during the
>>>daytime (clearly not flash orb) visit:

>>>http://brumac.8k.com/ORedSphere/ORedSphere.html.

>>The thing that's always interested me in this photo is not the
>>red "orb" but the other color anomaly in the photo. It's a
>>blue-green "orb" in the upper, left-hand corner of the photo
>>approximately an inch and a half over and one inch down from
>>the top.

>>I don't see any other colors like it in the photo, and was
>>thinking that if this odd color is there, then perhaps there was
>>some kind of processing error, despite what the witness says.

>>Just an observation.

>And a very astute observation at that. My opinion is that the >
>blue-green effect and the red ball are related.

>If you draw a line from the center of the red ball to the blue-
>green artifact, and extend that line, you would lead to or very
>near the Sun.

>Since the house casts a shadow on the ground between itself and
>the camera, the sun is ahead and to the left...very nearly on
>the line from the red ball to the blue-green.

>I suspect lens flare on both counts.

>Also, this would explain why the red ball is larger than the
>blue-green...the point closest to the source will be smaller
>than a point farther away.

>Why blue-green and then red?

>The sunlight is going through a prismatic effect due to the
>surface coating on the lens. The red ball actually fades to
>yellow at the lower right...again in line with the sun angle.

Perhaps the combination of red and green of the grass below
'makes the yellow.

>If the red ball were an object of mass, the near lower portion
>would presumably be in shadow, contrary to what is observed.

Shadow from what? Trees?

>This prismatic effect is common when shooting in the direction
>of the Sun, and this photo clearly is shooting toward the Sun,
>as opposed to away from it.

I have seen lots of flares, but not with this much "prismatic
effect."

>If the camera field of view were larger, the Sun would be in the >
>photo. Classic lens flare. It would be notable if it were absent
>under such conditions.

I would say "unusual lens flare". Does anyone have a lens flare
photo with this much color aberration ("white" sun making a red
flare?) Eric Byler (who investigated the case and interviewed
the witness) examined several dozen photos to try to find a
similar lens flare situation and couldn't.







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                     Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:42:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:40:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - King


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:20:49 -0300
>Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:12:05 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings

<snip>

>>While I fully accept Tombough's data, the cited quote
>>specifically noted amateur, not professional, astronomers. I
>>assumed a point was being proferred by Steve that removed
>>professionals from the discussion. That could be an erroneous
>>assumption however.

>That's nit-picking, and as I'm sure you've noted, the statement
>made by Steve is not true anyway. I've had three cases myself
>in the last four years that were reports made by amateur
>astronomers.

>See my IUR article, fall of 2002, re the Cow Bay sighting for
>example. The witness in this case is an amateur astronomer and
>witnessed her monster Triangle UFO during the Persiads Meteor
>shower.


Hi Don,

Couldn't agree more. It's not a true statement, regardless of
intent.

Regards,

Kyle







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                   Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Friedman

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:29:56 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:19:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Friedman


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:20:49 -0300
>Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:12:05 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings

<snip>

>>While I fully accept Tombough's data, the cited quote
>>specifically noted amateur, not professional, astronomers. I
>>assumed a point was being proferred by Steve that removed
>>professionals from the discussion. That could be an erroneous
>>assumption however.

>That's nit-picking, and as I'm sure you've noted, the statement
>made by Steve is not true anyway. I've had three cases myself
>in the last four years that were reports made by amateur
>astronomers.

>See my IUR article, fall of 2002, re the Cow Bay sighting for
>example. The witness in this case is an amateur astronomer and
>witnessed her monster Triangle UFO during the Persiads Meteor
>shower.

Gert Herb working with CUFOS and the Amateur Astronomer's Assoc.
(some similar name) did a survey of the members and found plenty
of observations of things that could not be explained. I asked
an audience of Amateur Astronomers at the Griffith Observatory
in LA many years ago and a significant number had had
sightings.. much before people were carrying high quality
videorecorders.

Steve's statement was a proclamation supported by nothing, as
so many of the comments from noisy negativists are.

For example, I have been asked "How come no scientists believe
in UFOs?"... despite the fact that polls show there are more
believers amongst scientists than non-believers, as I noted in
an article, Who Believes In UFOs?

Recall that  Dr. Seth Shostak in his book  Cosmic Company asked
why UFOs haven't landed, and why they haven't been seen on
radar... clearly reflecting his ignorance.

With regard to Professional Astronomers, surveys done of them by
Hynek back in the 50's, and Peter Sturrock decades later, showed
there were sightings and, as might be expected, great reluctance
to report them. After all Don Menzel had shown there was nothing
to UFOs and Allan Hynek had praised one of Menzel's books.

One of my recent MUFON Journal columns dealt with some silly
things said about UFOs by Phil Plait in Sky And Telescope.


Stan Friedman









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                         Re: New Orb Images - Taylor

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:52:06 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:24:25 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Taylor


>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:34:48 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Hebert

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:37:30 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>>I believe that a major study by Charles Leitzau and co-workers
>>will become available soon. I am not involved and don't know
>>when or where it will be available.

>>A "major study"? I find it sad that _anyone_ is wasting any
>>more time on this nonsense when there are dozens of genuine
>>phenomena out there that need to be researched - like,
>>maybe... UFOs!

>You, Dr. Haselhoff, I and others have devoted valuable time to
>study claims like "orbs", "chemtrails" and all the birds, bugs,
>debris, etc. promoted as UFO's that could have been used to
>study _real_ phenomena. This is a waste of any researcher's
>time. What's worse, there are people who continue to believe
>"orbs" exist. Ah, folklore in the making.


Amy,

It seems as if you think you and your colleagues have solved the
orb mystery. Well, not so. There will be many others that will
contribute their own slant on this subject, and so they should.

Each study will introduce more information and criteria that must
be met in true Orb analysis. This is what the "major study by
Charles Leitzau and co-workers" will do. It is not for me to say
too much on this study until it is released by the authors, but I
will say that one of the criteria ideas has been taken up by me
in my study of Orbs.

If I, and others can produce the undeniable evidence that will
prove the reality of, or confirm the close to lens artefact
thesis as you and others have suggested by your work in
falsifying similar images, then I will gladly openly admit I was
wrong, if I am. Will you do the same if it is proven you were
wrong?

Orbs, UFO's, it is all happening here. I again video taped UFOs
during daytime on 17th and 18th September. These two phenomena
alone are keeping me busy enough.


Barry Taylor









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                     Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - White

From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:45:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:25:25 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - White


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:36:23 EDT
>Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News

<snip>

>If Joyce Riley has verifiable documents then she'd best get on
>the ball and fork them over to the crew at CBS asap. If not CBS
>our other pals in the press would want to check them out for
>authenticity.

Joyce said she did contact CBS, but the people there expressed
total disinterest in the documents.


Eleanor White








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                    Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:42:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:33:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Colvin



>The comment below is from my retired meteorologist and amateur
>astronomer friend Steve. How true is his statement?

>Terry

>-----

>"The interesting thing is that no amateur astronomer-a person who
>would be knowledgeable about the sky, has ever photographed or
>videotaped a classical UFO." --Steve


Response from 'Steve':

-----

I am a bit too busy right now to answer each message separately
- I'm running very late tonight because I had a lot to do today.
However, a couple of points.

First off, only a minority of Amateur Astronomers have home
observatories. Most, like me, have portable telescopes so that
we can take them places where the sky is dark.

Secondly, those of who became amateurs before the recent advent
Go To computerized telescopes (I started in 1948) are quite
familiar with the night sky and can quickly notice when
something is awry and we don't spend the whole time looking
through the telescopes.

Finally, to those who are unfamiliar with the night sky might
often see something they can't identify and that would be, to
them, a UFO.

Such an event might include Iridium flares or the longer
duration flares from the Hubble Space Telescope both of which
can be quite bright.

Such a flare happened the other night, when I noticed a bright
object, which I soon realized was a satellite. From its position
and path I was able to determine that it was the Hubble.

Someone not familiar with these flares would have seen an
unidentified bright moving object that suddenly faded from view.

I am also aware of the reports of Lunar Transient Phenomena but
unfortunately most reports are poorly documented or unconfirmed by
supporting observations while it has now been demonstrated that meteor
impacts on the Moon can be seen telescopically down here.


Steve








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                    Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 02:00:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:35:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Hatch


>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:04:45 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Close Encounter In Alaska

>Interesting Close Encounter In Alaska

>I spoke with this witness, who had a fascinating story to tell.
>This case would be very worthwhile to follow up, if it wasn't
>for the fact that the location is so isolated.

>-----

>Bettles, Alaska
>September 17, 2004
>2:30 am

>Witness' Narrative:

<snip>

Hello Chris:

Oooh! That's a neat one. Too bad there is only one witness. Were
there any audible subjective indications of credibility or
reliability when you spoke to him?

I take it the guy was 2 miles South of Bettles, AK. Is that
right? I will look for an airstrip south of that town. Should be
close enough, I try to get within one minute of long/lat.


Best wishes

- Larry










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                         Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:15:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:37:56 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Hatch


>From: Brett Holman <b.holman.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:11:48 +1000
>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:51:42 -0700
>>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON

<snip>

>I think, though, it would be a huge stretch to claim that *no*
>amateur astronomer had ever photographed or videotaped
>a UFO - where's the literature search to back up that assertion?
>But note that the quote actually refers to "classical UFO[s]".
>What does "classical" mean in this context? The author of the quote
>may have been thinking of daylight discs or Billy Meier type photos,
>rather than the sorts of photos Bruce Maccabee mentioned.


Hello Brett, all:

The quote from "Steve" reminds me of a similar statement that
"Most UFOs are seen in the USA." I don't know where these claims
come from, but they are usually dictated with a certainty I find
disturbing.

A fast scan of the *U* UFO Database finds no fewer than 197
astronomer sightings, about 66 of those tagged as AM.ASTRON
indicating Amateur Astronomers. 21 of the 197 occurred prior to
1900, and 19 of the 197 are tagged 'PHT' for some sort of
photography, film or video (and/or in rare cases a drawing
perhaps.)

It seems like the people most dismissive of these matters, are
(with notable exceptions) the least knowledgeable about them.

Please feel free to pass these numbers back to 'Steve'. I have
no illusions about what good that might do.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch











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   Sep > Sep 22

                    What's Going On in Ushuaia Argentina?

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:08:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:41:04 -0400
Subject: What's Going On in Ushuaia Argentina?


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
September 22, 2004


Source: El Sureno (newspaper)
Date: September 17, 2004

Unlikely Objects Found in Area Where 'Fireballs' Fell

The elements were recovered by members of the Special Services
Division of the Police, who took photographs of the Valle de
Andora region. Experts from CADIC shall try to ascertain their
origin.


USHUAIA -- Unlikely objects were found in the forested area
located behind the Le Martial Glacier, where the luminous
objects reported late Tuesday and Wednesday allegedly fell.

The objects were recovered by personnel of the Special Services
Division of the provincial police, who scoured the area. The
objects and some photos taken in the area shall be submitted for
analysis by experts of the Centro Austral de Investigaciones
Cientificas (CADIC).

No details on the items found were put forth, but it was learned
that they did not correspond to the characteristics of the area.

The survey in Valle Andorra and the Le Martial Grlacier -
 indicated as the sites of the fireball impacts - will continue
today, weather permitting. Strong winds are forecasted for
today, according to the weather report issued by official
agencies.

The new projected expedition may include scientists from CADIC
interested in discovering "in situ" the conditions under which
the strange elements were found, and which drew the attention of
police researchers. It is worth noting that Dr. Acevedo,  a
member of this research center, was one of the witnesses to the
fall of strange luminous bodies over the skies of Ushuaia.

Acevedo suspects that the objects could be the remains of a
meteorite or otherwise of a satellite tha burned out upon
reentry into Earth's atmosphere.

Readers will remember that on Tuesday night, almost at the same
time -- between 20:30 and 21:00, over a hundred residents of
Ushuaia alerted the Civil Defense and the Police about
"fireballs" falling behind the Martial Glacier.

The phenomenon was also seen on Wednesday by residents of the
city of Rio Grande. There were even rumors yesterday that new
luminous objects had fallen from the sky around 9:00 o'clock at
night.


Translation (C) 2004 Scott Corrales IHU
Special thanks to Guillermo Gimenez, Planeta UFO








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             Part Of Forest Destroyed By Mysterious 'Fireballs'

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:18:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:43:45 -0400
Subject: Part Of Forest Destroyed By Mysterious 'Fireballs'



INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
September 22, 2004

Source: El Sure=F1o (Ushuaia, Tierra del Fuego) - Argentina
Date: September 19, 2004

**Behind Le Martial Glacier**

Part Of Forest Destroyed By Mysterious 'Fireballs'

Traces of destruction in a forested area measuring 150 square
meters: that is what was found in the area in which the
mysterious "fireballs" impacted. Sheared pastures were found in
another area.

The most curious detail, which was made known yesterday, is that
the damage was caused in the upper part of the trees -- some
eight meters above the ground -- and that no prints were found
on the ground that could serve as evidence for the collision of
some strange object.

This appeared in a report broadcast by the "Botella al Mar" news
portal based on an expedition conducted by two individuals to
the alleged "fireball" impact site.

The report mentions Fernando Garc=EDa and Roberto Ceballos, who
were in a forested area located behind the Le Martial Glacier
and who took photos of the damage inflicted upon some 40 trees.

The expeditionaries ascertained the existence of some "thirty or
forty uprooted trees, some of them broken in half and others
exploded, all of them lying on the ground in a south-north
direction."

It should be noted that a group of policemen from the Special
Services Division also took photos at the site where the
"fireballs" allegedly fell.

It is reported that pasture areas appear as though having been
cut by a lawnmower, and that the imprint of a long trail was
left behind, as if an object had been dragged along several
meters.


Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Christian Quintero, Planeta UFO







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                 Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 07:38:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:46:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Lehmberg


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:35:36 +0100
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:39:59 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

<snip>

>I find it incredible that anyone can regard Hopkins' technique
>as "highly professional" - I watched a television documentary
>about abduction (unfortunately I don't recall which one,
>probably one of the "sightings" series). In the programme, he
>was interviewing a young child, no more than seven years old. He
>asked the child "which one of these did the alien look like?"
>and proceeded to show him a series of drawings of aliens.

>Now, I am no Psychologist, but even I can see how suggestive
>this is - first of all, the entity is confirmed as an "alien",
>then it is implied that it must look like one of a selection of
>drawings of aliens. If anyone doubts that this is what took
>place on the video, say so and I shall look through my video
>collection and try to identify which programme it was and
>provide direct quotes from it.

>Do List members consider the above to be an example of "highly
>professional" interviewing technique? I certainly don't!


Like most with a conjectured, too narrow philosophical view, Sir,
you take the above example, remove it from all context and
rationality and blow it way out of proportion.

A host of inductive fallacies are loosely employed - Fallacy of
Exclusion: evidence which would change the outcome of an
inductive argument is excluded from consideration. Slothful
Induction: the conclusion of a strong inductive argument is
denied despite the evidence to the contrary. Unrepresentative
Sample: the sample is unrepresentative of the sample as a whole.

Likewise with fallacies of category. You employ the inverse of
Division: because the whole has a certain property, it is argued
that the parts have that property. You employ Composition:
because the attributes of the parts of a whole have a certain
property, it is argued that the whole has that property.

More paragraphs could describe other aspects of fallacial
employment. A few of them describe the irresponsible and the
insulting. Ad hominum at its best.

Hopkins has pursued this subject diligently, intelligently, and
creatively for three decades and has so far managed to avoid
disgracing himself. He is respected by persons from both sides
of the ufological aisle as a valued professional, shows a
surprising humility despite a certain efficacious notoriety, and
has assuredly added to the knowledge base.

As it stands you only come across as a person comfortable
shining their kids on. If a kid comes to you and says they
think they are interacting with aliens, it might be helpful to
at least consider something outside the "M" cubed box (misled,
misleading, mentally ill) as a potential. It is quite clear
that _something_ is occurring... Time to punt, Mr. McGonagle.


alienview.nul -:=A6:-
  www.AlienView.net









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                  Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:28:29 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:48:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Ledger


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:35:36 +0100
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:39:59 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

<snip>

>I find it incredible that anyone can regard Hopkins' technique
>as "highly professional" - I watched a television documentary
>about abduction (unfortunately I don't recall which one,
>probably one of the "sightings" series). In the programme, he
>was interviewing a young child, no more than seven years old. He
>asked the child "which one of these did the alien look like?"
>and proceeded to show him a series of drawings of aliens.

>Now, I am no Psychologist, but even I can see how suggestive
>this is - first of all, the entity is confirmed as an "alien",
>then it is implied that it must look like one of a selection of
>drawings of aliens. If anyone doubts that this is what took
>place on the video, say so and I shall look through my video
>collection and try to identify which programme it was and
>provide direct quotes from it.

>Do List members consider the above to be an example of "highly
>professional" interviewing technique? I certainly don't!

That was a hatchet job done deliberately by NOVA. After hearing
how the director  and editors at NOVA spun the story to convey
just wbhat you are referring to, I lost much of my respect for
that program and do not trust its opinion anymore. There are
others that can describe much better than I what a sham that
episode was.


Don Ledger








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   Sep > Sep 22

                Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

From: Mike Christman <mschristman.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:21:19 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:55:19 -0400
Subject: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident


Cosmic Curiosity: Naval History Magazine Reports on August, 1952
Incident


First off I would like to thank all those who post to this
forum. As a long time lurker, I always come here first when I
want to check on breaking UFO news and investigations, and I
wish to thank all those who devote their valuable time and
effort in pusuit of this worldwide phenomenon.

That said, It's time to report on something I just recently read
in Naval History magazine.

Now, many researchers and readers of this forum are not
surprised when stories about UFO encounters are reported by
civilian and military pilots. What has surprised me however, is
that this particular magazine would report anything at all
about UFOs, and especially as a naval history story.

The magazine attracts many high ranking current and former
military officers to it's reading ranks, and is well known for
it's seriousness regarding naval military history.

The magazine is published by the US Naval Institute, which is a
self-supported non-profit organisation, which also publishes
Proceedings and professional history books. They are located in
Annapolis, Maryland, and the editorial office is at the US Naval
Acadamy at Preble Hall. They are not officially connected with
the US Government.

-----

Cosmic Curiosity: by Commander Edward P. Stafford, US
Navy (Retired)

Half a century ago, three Navy aviators saw something high above
their Greenland base that baffled them.

It was August 1952. I was officer in charge of a detach- ment of
three Navy patrol planes operating out of the new US air base at
Thule, in northwest Greenland, some 80 miles from the North
Pole. The primary mission assigned our four engine, World War II
Privateers was "ice recon- naissance." That ment flying out over
the Kennedy Channel, Smith Sound, Baffin Bay, and the Davis
Strait and plotting the location of the pack ice and large
bergs. That data was relayed to the ships that each summer re-
 supplied the chain of arctic radar stations known as the DEW
(distant early warning) line.

Our secondary job, not to interfere with ice reconnaissance ,
was to support a group of scientists conducting cosmic ray
research. About once a week, when weather conditions were right,
they sent up a huge, translucent "Skyhook" bal- loon with a
package of sensative photographic plates sus- pended under it.
The balloons would drift downwind at an altitude of 90,000-
100,000 feet, where the atmosphere (spun thinner near the poles
by the rotation of the earth) was sufficiently attenuated to
permit the cosmic rays to make their telltale traces on the
photographic plates. When the plates had been exposed for a few
hours, the scientists would send a radio signal to the balloon,
exploding a small charge, cutting the plates loose, and
returning them to earth under a large, bright red parachute.

Our job was to fly above any overcast, keep the high bal- loons
in sight, and report the landing location of the para- chuted
plates for recovery by helicopter. The high-flying gas bags were
equipped by low power, low frequency radio transmitters to which
we would tune our radio compasses so their needles always
pointed toward the balloons.

These were easy flights, always in good weather and always at an
altitude safely above the tall, cloud-shrouded bergs and coastel
rocks we often had to dodge on ice patrol. Each of us had two or
three of those "milk runs" while deployed to Thule, and we
rather enjoyed the change of tactics and routine, as well as the
virtuous feeling that we were helping to advance the cause of
science.

This is why I was surprised to find one of the other plane
commanders as tense and pale on return from a balloon chase as
though it had been a hairy combat mission or a close encounter
with a berg or a mountaintop. Lt. John Callahan was a salty,
steady professional pilot, so I knew when I saw him walking in
from his plane that something serious had happened on that
flight.

"What the hell's the matter John?" I asked him. "You look as if
you'd just survived a midair!" "Ed, you're not going to be-
 lieve it. I'm not even sure I do...and I SAW it. And so did
O'Flaherty and Merchant. At least most of it. And I don't think
they believe it either."

I followed John into the line shack where he wrote up some minor
gripes on his airplane, then into our little ready room where we
poured ourselves coffees and sat down. John was not acting at
all like the Callahan I knew. Although he was an experienced and
highly competent naval aviator, John Callahan's normal manner
was outgoing and cheerful, even jovial, with lots of smiles and
laughter and banter...even after a low-level hurricane
penetration or a long patrol in instru- ment weather. Not this
day. Now he was deadly serious and obviously shaken. The last
time I had seen a man like this was in wartime.

Here is John Callahan's story:

He was flying at 10,000 feet in the clear with the balloon in
sight high above and the radio compass needle locked on to the
balloon's transmitter. Through the one set of binoculars carried
in each aircraft, he and his copilot, Lt. (jg) Bill O'Fla-
 herty, occasionally inspected the balloon and its instrument
package, trailing beneath like the tail of a kite. Everything
looked normal for most of the flight. Then, on a routine check
with the binoculars, John found something very ab- normal about
the balloon and its payload. He looked for a long time and then
passed the glasses to O'Flaherty.

"Take a look at our target," he told the young officer, "and
tell me what you see." O'Flaherty looked, lowered the glasses
and glanced sharply at John, then looked again. "Well?" "Jesus
Christ, John there are three bright silver discs attached to
that instrument pod! They weren't there the last time I looked.
Where the hell did they come from?"

Callahan took the glasses back and looked again. They were still
there exactly as the copilot had described, three shining,
saucer-shaped metallic objects clustered on the hanging trail of
the balloon just above the black dot of the science pack- age.

On the intercom Callahan called the plane captain to the cock-
 pit and handed him the binoculars. "Take a look Merchant. What
do you think?" The captain's reacton was the same as the
copilot's. "What the hell are they? Where did they come from?"

Callahan took the glasses back and studied the strange objects
for several minutes while O'Flaherty maneuvered the Privateer to
keep the target in sight. Suddenly Callahan sucked in his breath
and held it. What he was seeing could not be happen- ing. The
three objects had detached themselves from the tail of the
balloon and formed up into a compact vee. As Callahan watched
incredulously, they executed what looked at that dis- tance like
a vertical bank to the left and accelerated to a blind- ing
speed that took them out of sight, climbing in about three
seconds.

Callahan handed the glasses back to O'Flaherty. "They're gone,"
he said slowly, "CLIMBING from 90,000 feet. Never saw anything
turn so tight or move so fast."

Back in the ready room after the instrument pod had landed and
its position had be reported, this was the aspect of the
phenomenon that most affected Callahan.

"Jesus, Ed," he told me, "from the angle of the sky those things
passed through in the three seconds they were in sight, at that
distance, they must have been going tens of thousands of miles
an hour. They must have pulled a hundred Gs in that turn. And
what the hell climbs out, ACCELERATING from 90,000 feet?"

John sat down that day, while it was still clear in his head,
and wrote a full report of the incident. It went through the
chain of command to the Office of Naval Intelligence. A report
was also made to the Air Force authorities at Thule. There never
has been an explanation, nor even an acknowledgment of the
report. The phenomenon exists today only in the memory of John
C. Callahan, his copilot, his plane captain, and I, to whom it
was told so vividly when it was fresh.

(Commander Stafford is the author of The Big E (1962) and
Subchaser (1988) both published by the Naval Institute.)

-----


It will be interesting to see if this story receives some
responses from Naval History Magazine's readership. It does have
a very active readers column. I have been reading it for years
and have never seen the UFO topic cross these pages.


The magazine's website:

http://navalhistory.org

shows the story listed under it's current issue, (UFOs over
Greenland) but the story is not available for online reading.










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   Sep > Sep 22

                    Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:52:08 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:17:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Ledger


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:15:47 -0500
>Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:12:21 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings

<snip>

>Has anyone mentioned Dr. Clyde Tombaugh, astronomer (and
>discoverer of Pluto), and his definitive sighting, along with
>his wife and two daughters, of a silver ellipsoid craft
>traveling between 600 and 900 mph? This was in 1947. July 10th.
>Five O'clock in the afternoon.

I did Al, that's how his name came up in the first place. At any
rate, the statement that amateurs astronomers don't report UFOs
is bogus to begin with. Their average is as good as the rest of
the population. And the former like the latter see them with the
naked eye rather than through the scope.

Hope you came thru Ivan unscathed.....


Best,

Don Ledger








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   Sep > Sep 22

                  Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Rukowski

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:49:52 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:18:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Rukowski


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 02:00:24 -0700
>Subject: Re: Close Encounter In Alaska

>>I spoke with this witness, who had a fascinating story to tell.
>>This case would be very worthwhile to follow up, if it wasn't
>>for the fact that the location is so isolated.

>>Bettles, Alaska
>>September 17, 2004
>>2:30 am

>Oooh! That's a neat one. Too bad there is only one witness. Were
>there any audible subjective indications of credibility or
>reliability when you spoke to him?

Larry:

Neat is right. Yes, my impression of him during our conversation
was that he seemed sincere and was truly shaken by his
experience. He wasn't seeking publicity and was trying
desperately to find others in his area who might be able to
corroborate what he had seen. He had contacted the weather
station personnel, several "neighbors" (some miles away) and was
going to himself check with Anchorage ATC. He said that checks
with other residents found that trees blocked the view between
his location and all other possible witnesses.

I did not get the impression he was making this up or that he
was delusional. There was some difficulty in talking with him
because he was on a radiophone with some voice echo and lag.

>I take it the guy was 2 miles South of Bettles, AK. Is that
>right? I will look for an airstrip south of that town. Should be
>close enough, I try to get within one minute of long/lat.

I believe the place is technically called Bettles Field, AK,
since it's just some outlying houses surrounding the airfield,
as far as I was able to tell.


- Chris








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   Sep > Sep 22

                          Re: New Orb Images - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:02:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:20:07 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - King


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:32:20 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:17:21 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:16:02 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:46:46 -0400
>>>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>>>For a rare case of an orb visible and photographed during the
>>>>daytime (clearly not flash orb) visit:

>>>>http://brumac.8k.com/ORedSphere/ORedSphere.html.

>>>The thing that's always interested me in this photo is not the
>>>red "orb" but the other color anomaly in the photo. It's a
>>>blue-green "orb" in the upper, left-hand corner of the photo
>>>approximately an inch and a half over and one inch down from
>>>the top.

>>>I don't see any other colors like it in the photo, and was
>>>thinking that if this odd color is there, then perhaps there was
>>>some kind of processing error, despite what the witness says.

>>>Just an observation.

>>And a very astute observation at that. My opinion is that the >
>>blue-green effect and the red ball are related.

>>If you draw a line from the center of the red ball to the blue-
>>green artifact, and extend that line, you would lead to or very
>>near the Sun.

>>Since the house casts a shadow on the ground between itself and
>>the camera, the sun is ahead and to the left...very nearly on
>>the line from the red ball to the blue-green.

>>I suspect lens flare on both counts.

>>Also, this would explain why the red ball is larger than the
>>blue-green...the point closest to the source will be smaller
>>than a point farther away.

>>Why blue-green and then red?

>>The sunlight is going through a prismatic effect due to the
>>surface coating on the lens. The red ball actually fades to
>>yellow at the lower right...again in line with the sun angle.

>Perhaps the combination of red and green of the grass below
>'makes the yellow.

>>If the red ball were an object of mass, the near lower portion
>>would presumably be in shadow, contrary to what is observed.

>Shadow from what? Trees?

>>This prismatic effect is common when shooting in the direction
>>of the Sun, and this photo clearly is shooting toward the Sun,
>>as opposed to away from it.

>I have seen lots of flares, but not with this much "prismatic
>effect."

>>If the camera field of view were larger, the Sun would be in the >
>>photo. Classic lens flare. It would be notable if it were absent
>>under such conditions.

>I would say "unusual lens flare". Does anyone have a lens flare
>photo with this much color aberration ("white" sun making a red
>flare?) Eric Byler (who investigated the case and interviewed
>the witness) examined several dozen photos to try to find a
>similar lens flare situation and couldn't.

Hi Dr. Maccabee,

Here's an example of a prismatic flare creating a red, or in
this case violet ball. If you look closely, you can even see a
bluish or greenish ball about center of the frame. The sun angle
is not the same as in the orb photo, but it isn't far off.

http://acmeme.org/all/travel/singapore/nyc/lens_flare_censors.JPG

The point is that lens flare depends on lens coatings,
cleanliness of the lens, sun position, etc. To say that lens
flare never looks like the orb photo is not a scientificially
valid statement.

The flare in question in the orb photo could easily have been
visible to the man holding the camera. Note heavily that he did
not see it until he was looking through the camera viewfinder.
Lens flare is not solely an in-camera effect. If the reflection
was particularly strong, his eye could have been dazzled by it,
and the flare persisted when he moved the camera. As often
happens with such effects, the eye follows what it perceives to
be motion, and as it fades it appears to move up and away. The
illusion is that its dimming is due to distance, when it is
actually simply the retina recovering from the dazzle.

You can test this yourself with a camera flash, although it is
not a 'very comfortable test. The "blue dot" seen after the
flash appears to move and to fade into the distance over time.
Neither of these effects is real, yet they are very convincing
effects.


Best Regards,

Kyle









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   Sep > Sep 22

                    Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:04:22 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:22:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings - Ledger


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>,
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:42:03 -0700
>Subject: Re: Astronomer UFO Sightings

>Response from 'Steve':

>-----

>I am a bit too busy right now to answer each message separately
>- I'm running very late tonight because I had a lot to do today.
>However, a couple of points.

>First off, only a minority of Amateur Astronomers have home
>observatories. Most, like me, have portable telescopes so that
>we can take them places where the sky is dark.

>Secondly, those of who became amateurs before the recent advent
>Go To computerized telescopes (I started in 1948) are quite
>familiar with the night sky and can quickly notice when
>something is awry and we don't spend the whole time looking
>through the telescopes.

>Finally, to those who are unfamiliar with the night sky might
>often see something they can't identify and that would be, to
>them, a UFO.

>Such an event might include Iridium flares or the longer
>duration flares from the Hubble Space Telescope both of which
>can be quite bright.

>Such a flare happened the other night, when I noticed a bright
>object, which I soon realized was a satellite. From its position
>and path I was able to determine that it was the Hubble.

>Someone not familiar with these flares would have seen an
>unidentified bright moving object that suddenly faded from view.

>I am also aware of the reports of Lunar Transient Phenomena but
>unfortunately most reports are poorly documented or unconfirmed by
>supporting observations while it has now been demonstrated that meteor
>impacts on the Moon can be seen telescopically down here.


Boy, there's some major back peddling going on here. Hope
Steve's chain doesn't slip off.

Now there's all of these caveates, inexperience, lack of
knowledge of the night sky where satellites are concerned,
misidentification of known phenomena, poorly documented reports,
etc. That greasy chain is going to get your pant cuff dirty.

Let's have a show of hands for the number of times we've been
around the block on this question. BTW, Steve, you have the time
to post these , but no time for answers?


Don Ledger









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   Sep > Sep 22

                          Re: New Orb Images - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:13:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:23:58 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - King


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:32:20 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:17:21 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:16:02 -0700
>>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:46:46 -0400
>>>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>I have seen lots of flares, but not with this much "prismatic
>effect."

<snip>

>I would say "unusual lens flare". Does anyone have a lens flare
>photo with this much color aberration ("white" sun making a red
>flare?) Eric Byler (who investigated the case and interviewed
>the witness) examined several dozen photos to try to find a
>similar lens flare situation and couldn't.

Hi Dr. Maccabee,

Here's another flare exhibiting the prismatic effect in grand
fashion. Again, the sun angle is different, but not grossly so,
and the result here is a multitude of colors. As the camera
swings away from the sun, the intensity and range of color
becomes less pronounced, as in your orb photo.

http://www.whatdoesnotchange.org/archives/092203.jpg

Note that in this photo, the dirty lens heavily enhances the
flares.


Regards,

Kyle








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   Sep > Sep 22

             Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:41:58 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:25:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -


From: Mike Christman <mschristman.nul>
To: ufoupdates.nul
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:21:19 +0200
Subject: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>Half a century ago, three Navy aviators saw something high above
>their Greenland base that baffled them.
>It was August 1952. I was officer in charge of a detach- ment of
>three Navy patrol planes operating out of the new US air base at
>Thule, in northwest Greenland, some 80 miles from the North Pole.

<snip>

>Callahan took the glasses back and looked again. They were still
>there exactly as the copilot had described, three shining,
>saucer-shaped metallic objects clustered on the hanging trail of
>the balloon just above the black dot of the science package.
>Callahan took the glasses back and studied the strange objects
>for several minutes while O'Flaherty maneuvered the Privateer to
>keep the target in sight. Suddenly Callahan sucked in his breath
>and held it. What he was seeing could not be happen- ing. The
>three objects had detached themselves from the tail of the
>balloon and formed up into a compact vee. As Callahan watched
>incredulously, they executed what looked at that dis- tance like
>a vertical bank to the left and accelerated to a blind- ing
>speed that took them out of sight, climbing in about three seconds.

This incident brings to mind a parallel event that occurred near
Simiutak, Greenland, in which:

"An object collided with and disintegrated a weather balloon at
18,000 feet over Simiutak, Greenland, on 24 June 53. This object
was observed through a theodolite by A/2C Richard Hill, weather
observer, with three and one half years experience. Object was
traveling in southeast to northwest direction at varied speeds.
Object described as red, rotating in a circular motion with
shape as either delta or circular. Object hovered after
collision, rotating in a circular motion for 15 seconds, then
rapidly departed into the wind, direction, 300 degrees.
Observers stated object was three times the size of the weather
balloon. Negative information reported from this station."

This object was much larger than the 3 small discs seen by the
ilots, but it does suggest that something had an interest in
military balloons over Greenland in the early 1950s.






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   Sep > Sep 23

                Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

From: Ryan S. Wood <majesticdocuments.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:30:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:21:01 -0400
Subject: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents


Authenticity Meters Added To www.majesticdocuments.com

BROOMFIELD, CO--Sept 22, 2004 - The incredible story that the
Majestic documents tell of crashed UFOs, extraterrestrial
bodies, government control, policies of denial, and manipulation
pose a profound challenges to our free society. Yet at the core
is the question of document and content authenticity.

http://www.majesticdocuments.com/documents/authenticity.php

Many of the most sensational and intriguing Majestic documents
are not from official sources, such as the Freedom of
Information Act (FOIA) or government document libraries.

Because of this fact, the issue of authenticity becomes
paramount if one is to believe the content of the documents.

Authenticity is a manifold function; it is not as simple as
"true or false" or "hoaxed or real".

Authenticity of a document involves examining many questions,
such as:

1. Where did the document come from?

2. What are the results of the forensic paper, ink, watermark,
   typewriter and handwriting tests?

3. Are there unique and obscure content markers that are
   accurate for this type of document?

4. Are there direct first hand witnesses?

5. How difficult is the document to hoax or fake?

6. Who would have faked the document and why?

All of these factors as well as other subtleties weave their way
into an authenticity rating for each document.

To fairly and effectively rate each document for authenticity
there needs to be a weighting factor for each authenticity
attribute under consideration. For example, there is a strong
difference between forensic paper and ink testing, a weighting
of 5.0, and more easily obtained document content, a weighting
factor 2.0. Courts widely recognize this concept, discounting
eyewitness testimony in favor of DNA evidence. In the end each
document receives an authenticity rating based on the
multiplication of the weighting factor and the document's score
on that attribute. The goal is to make the rating system as
objective as possible.

The final authenticity score for each document is based on a
series of weighted factors:

1. Eyewitness - First hand witness(es) that were directly
involved with the questioned document - either they saw it,
destroyed it, read it, wrote it, or contributed to the
document's creation in a tangible way. Witnesses are fallible,
there memories change with time and can be influenced.
Eyewitnesses are given a weighting factor of 3.0.

2. Zingers - These are aspects of any of the key authenticity
metrics that go far beyond the norm. In essence, a zinger is a
verified rare subtlety of a document that is obscure, weird, or
odd. Examples would include typographical anomalies associated
with the printed process of the era. Zingers are given a
weighting factor of 5.0.

3. Content - Refers to the words and meaning of the document.
Are the dates, document references, and individuals mentioned
appropriate? What does the document say in relation to what was
known then and known now? Are there obscure facts that were
classified then that were declassified or became public after
the document was leaked? Content is given a weighting factor of
2.0.

4. Chronology - This looks at the placement of the document
content with respect to organizational history. Are the people
mentioned in the memo or report supposed to be there? Is the
document consistent with other documents of the era, does it fit
in or is it out of place? Chronology is given a weighting factor
of 2.0.

5. Typography - This category relates to typewriters,
typesetting, laser printing, photocopying, memography - in
essence any technique that creates or reproduces writing on
paper. Typology is given a weighting factor of 4.0.

6. Forensics - This refers to the testing of original paper,
verifying watermarks, and testing inks with known authentic
standards. Forensics are given a weighting factor of 5.0.

7. Linguistics - The use of forensic linguistics fits in this
category. This is the examination by experts of sentence
structure, spelling, punctuation, and writing style. Both
sophisticated computer tools and hand analysis are used to
pinpoint unique style markers that uniquely define authorship.
Linguistics are given a weighting factor of 3.0.

8. Anachronisms - These are problems with the document: dates
out of place, formats wrong, similar handwriting, copied content
from other documents, or conflicting stories. These issues can
be significant or minor depending on what is know about the
frequency of such an anachronism. For example, addressing a
military general by his first name in a document may seem like a
major mistake in the modern era, but 50 years ago in the company
of other generals, this anachronism could in fact be a hallmark
of authenticity. The weighting factor for anachronisms is 5.0.

Sometimes the information in the public domain for the
authenticity of a document is incomplete or uncompelling, but
the internal research and verification by
www.majesticdocuments.com staff shows a more complete story. For
those interested in the authenticity of a particular document
feel free to contact us directly for further discussions.

Given these weighting factors, five different levels of
authenticity are used to define each document:

High Level of Authenticity - 80-100%

This means that virtually all of the available investigation
channels and ideas have been pursued and at each test the
document has shown to be authentic. For example, tests in paper,
ink, obscure content, handwriting, period typography and fonts,
correct formatting, forensic linguistics (along with no sign of
anachronisms), all indicate the highest level of authenticity.
At this level, witnesses are present that have seen or read the
document in an "official" capacity and will or have signed an
affidavit to that effect.

Medium-High Level of Authenticity - 60-80%

The medium-high level means that a considerable amount of
investigation and testing has been completed and there are
strong signs of authenticity in the way of content, forensics,
typography, zingers etc. Although there may be some anachronisms
identified they do not seem to be major.

Medium Level of Authenticity - 40-60%

The medium level is the starting point for most documents that
are under-researched. This level a document shows both signs of
positive authenticity and questions as detailed in the eight
attributes of authenticity cited above.

Medium-Low Level of Authenticity - 20-40%

The medium-low level means the document has been studied by many
individuals or organizations and there are stubborn anachronisms
that cannot easily be resolved. However, there are elements
(many pages and or paragraphs) of the document that show signs
of authenticity, but on balance there are more bad points than
good.

Low Level of Authenticity - 0-20%

A low level means that significant irresolvable anachronisms
have been identified that cast considerable doubt on the entire
document. Virtually all investigative avenues have been pursued
and shown little or no sign of authenticity. A credible motive
for faking the document may be identified along with likely
perpetrators.

For further discussion of authenticity, see the Document
Authentication section.

http://www.majesticdocuments.com/documents/authenticity.php

Here you will find in-depth analyses of several documents, such
as "The Oppenheimer-Einstein Draft" and "Field Order 862, The
Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit," and several detailed articles
such as "Mounting Evidence For Authenticity of MJ-12 Documents"
and "Validating the New Majestic Documents" that describe the
authentication process in detail. You'll also find a videotaped
discussion on the topic of document authentication.


Ryan S. Wood
Document Researcher

www.majesticdocuemnts.com
Phone: 720-887-8239
E-mail: rswood.nul
Or mail to:

14004 Quail Ridge Drive,
Broomfield, CO 80020









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   Sep > Sep 23

                  More On The Ushuaia Argentina 'Fireball'

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:58:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:53:51 -0400
Subject: More On The Ushuaia Argentina 'Fireball'


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
September 22, 2004

Source: Botella al Mar.com
Date: 9-22-04

Fireball Crash Site: "There's a rage in that place"

One of the expedtionaries who walked to the site where the
strange objects fell from the sky on Tuesday and Wednesday last
week held an extensive chat with a journalist from Botella al
Mar.

Fernando Garcia described his journey to the mouth of Caaadon
Negro in Valle de Andorra and the discovery of a 150 square
meter area with trees found in positions that are hard to
interpret.

While the conclusions reached by CADIC scientists who also
visited the impact site are expected, the following is the
transcript of the interview with the Ushuaia resident.

What made you go to the alleged crash site?

Like everyone else in the city, I heard the story of lights
falling from the sky last Tuesday and Wednesday. The fact is
that I didn't give it much importance. On Saturday I heard a
journalist explain that the police officers who'd visited the
site hadn't found anything strange, but had indeed found
flattened trees. And that was strange to me. Then I phoned my
friend Roberto (Ceballos) a backwoodsman who knows the area
well, and asked him to come with me.

Just out of mere curiosity?

Exactly, nothing more. Above all because the toppled trees
intrigued me.

Why did that suprise you?

It gave the story a certain veracity. If people saw fireballs
come down and there are toppled trees, then there is a certain
coherence [to the story] and it was necessary to take a look.
That's why on Saturday night we got everything ready and we went
out on Sunday at 7:30 a.m..

Which is the exact site?

It's the mouth of Canadon Negro en Valle de Andorra. I wouldn't
like to give much more detail until the scientists have been.

How long did you walk to get there?

Once you know the place you can get there faster. We had no
clues to go by and were just looking for something strange. But
I figure that we walked some two and a half to three hours.

Can the site be clearly made out?

Clearly. The sensation upon reaching the site is that a plane
crashed there, and you're expecting to see bits of metal plating
dangling from the trees. That's the image.

What's incredible is that when you penetrate the place, there's
nothing at all to be found. There's nothing strange within the
strangeness. Only 150 square meters of toppled woods. Imagine
four walls and in the middle, all of the trees are overturned,
fallen, all of them piled exactly from north to south. All of
them toward the same place. In the north, where the object
presumably fell, the tree trunks are sheared off at a height of
six to eight meters, from greater to lesser, as though the
object came in at a slant.

Your opinion is that an object fell?

Yes, yes, but it's odd, because the fallen trunks are in perfect
state, as though the object hadn't quite finished falling yet.
Their bark is intact. There is no trace of anything being
burned, no dust, nothing.

Could the wind have toppled the trees?

I don't think so, because in one of the photos I took, and in
which I asked my companion to stand beside a trunk as a
reference, it can be seen that the trees had diameter of 70
centimieter. If there had been wind, it is hard to understand
the direction of the gusts. The site isn't like a letter "U",
with an entrance leading to the valley. It's an enclosure. It's
as if a giant dinosaur had placed its giant foot in the middle
of a forest, but never quite finished setting it down. The only
possibility I can think of is that a tornado or whirlwind
entered the area, caused the damage, and retreated in the
contrary direction.

A tornado?

Yes, but that wasn't it, because it would have scattered
branches everywhere, not piled from north to south. If the wind
was responsible, the ground vegetation would have been damaged,
and it was in perfect conditions.

Would it be easy to see the area from the air?

Of course, because it is easy to see that the breaks in the
trees are no more than four days old. In some parts you could
see tree sap, because the trunks had exploded. For this reason
the collapse of tree-trunks in a domino-like arrangement would
have to be discarded, because the trees are very close to each
other. The first one can fall to the side and strike a second
and then a third, but that's where the chain reaction stops.

This is different: there are tree-trunks that appear to have
been blown away from within by a stick of dynamite. All of the
trunks are frayed on the same side. If there was such great
external pressure, at least the roots would have moved. None of
that happened.



Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Christian Quintero, Planeta UFO








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             Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:23:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:56:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -


>From: Mike Christman <mschristman.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:21:19 +0200
>Subject: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>Cosmic Curiosity: Naval History Magazine Reports on August,
>1952 Incident


>First off I would like to thank all those who post to this
>forum. As a long time lurker, I always come here first when I
>want to check on breaking UFO news and investigations, and I
>wish to thank all those who devote their valuable time and
>effort in pusuit of this worldwide phenomenon.

Neato story! And I can relate as the best UFO stories and
evidence from the military I've ever gotten wasn't from the Air
Force, it was from the Navy!

It reminds me of one of the first UFO books I'd ever read as a
kid by Ivan T. Sanderson and I think it was titled 'Uninvited
Visitors'. It was about UFOs and their relationship to bodies of
water. It had a kick butt cover of a saucer done in that
prism/shift thingie that changes shape when you tilt it.

Matter of fact I've got two naval officers who if they could
talk would end this UFO visitation stuff right now. Considering
the vast surface area of the globe being covered in water and
the relatively unexplored depths it would be better to name the
planet 'Aqua' instead of 'Earth' or 'Terra'. Perhaps that's
where we'll find the solid proof that's eluded us all so long.
hint, hint, wink.....


Best,

Greg








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             Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:07:26 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:58:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -


>From: Mike Christman <mschristman.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:21:19 +0200
>Subject: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>Cosmic Curiosity: Naval History Magazine Reports on August, 1952
>Incident

<snip>

>Half a century ago, three Navy aviators saw something high above
>their Greenland base that baffled them.

>It was August 1952. I was officer in charge of a detachment of
>three Navy patrol planes operating out of the new US air base at
>Thule, in northwest Greenland, some 80 miles from the North
>Pole. The primary mission assigned our four engine, World War II
>Privateers was "ice recon- naissance." That ment flying out over
>the Kennedy Channel, Smith Sound, Baffin Bay, and the Davis
>Strait and plotting the location of the pack ice and large
>bergs. That data was relayed to the ships that each summer re-
>supplied the chain of arctic radar stations known as the DEW
>(distant early warning) line.

The DEW Line had not even been thought of yet in "August 1952"
and certainly did not even exist then nor had "each summer"
supply ships coming to it!

MIT's Project Lincoln Summer Study Group on Continental Air
Defense came up with the name "DEW" or "Distant Early Warning"
Line of radars in its Sept 1952 classified report. The AF SAC
partisans deemed it literally "treason" and blocked it from
implementation. Finally Eisenhower overcame SAC opposition to
push through the DEW Line and authorize construction in Sept
1953, because of increasing fears of a possible Soviet nuclear
strike.


Brad Sparks









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                   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:12:20 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:00:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Hall


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:35:36 +0100
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

<snip>

>I find it incredible that anyone can regard Hopkins' technique
>as "highly professional" - I watched a television documentary
>about abduction (unfortunately I don't recall which one,
>probably one of the "sightings" series). In the programme, he
>was interviewing a young child, no more than seven years old. He
>asked the child "which one of these did the alien look like?"
>and proceeded to show him a series of drawings of aliens.

>Now, I am no Psychologist, but even I can see how suggestive
>this is - first of all, the entity is confirmed as an "alien",
>then it is implied that it must look like one of a selection of
>drawings of aliens. If anyone doubts that this is what took
>place on the video, say so and I shall look through my video
>collection and try to identify which programme it was and
>provide direct quotes from it.

>Do List members consider the above to be an example of "highly
>professional" interviewing technique? I certainly don't!


Joe,

I doubt seriously that is what you saw, and suspect your memory
is playing tricks on you. Having sat in on quite a few of Budd's
hypnosis sessions, I have never seen him do any leading
questioning at all. He would never ask `which one the alien
looked like.' Furthermore, I am aware of the images test he
gives at times.It contains an array of images such as clowns,
other familiar types of people, and one (as I recall) outine-
style alien face. I have seen him use this. The alien face is
one of something like 10-12 images.

Furthermore, although Budd is a friend, I viewed the sessions
with a critical eye, deliberately looking for poor or leading
techniques to satisfy myself about these questions. He always
asked neutral, non-leading questions. The only matter that
bothers me a little comes with adult subjects who have read UFO
books and know who Budd is; therefore, they would tend to know
in advance what kind of answers he might be looking for. Not
that that is necessarily totally disqualifying either.
Intelligent adults would also tend to  know what a professional
psychologist is after.


 - Dick










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             Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:59:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:02:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -


>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:41:58 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>From: Mike Christman <mschristman.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:21:19 +0200
>>Subject: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

<snip>

>This object was much larger than the 3 small discs seen by the
>pilots, but it does suggest that something had an interest in
>military balloons over Greenland in the early 1950s.

Chris,

Maybe the balloons had an interest in something else than what
we've been told.

Makes me wonder what MOGUL and those other balloons were really
looking for.


Best,

Greg








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                     Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:04:20 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:03:42 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - Boone


Okay so again the press is in hot water with this new Britney
Spears' Wedding charade.

Are we seeing just how easy it is to dupe the press?

Have the ethics and standards dropped or are people more
dishonest to the press?

Whatever the case it shows how the press can be manipulated and
in the case of ufology, there are umpteen numerous cases with
far, far more credibility than either the Bush National Guard
debacle and the Britney Spears' Wedding controversy yet these
well documented UFO stories don't get anywhere near as much
press play.

I guess what we need to get the press' attention is a UFO sex
scandal or UFO political scandal.

But then again no one would believe it because it'd read like it
came from the Weekly World News.


Best,

Greg








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                       PRG Update - September 22, 2004

From: Stephen G. Bassett <Disclosure2003.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:54:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:22:09 -0400
Subject: PRG Update - September 22, 2004


PRG
Paradigm Research Group

Update - September 22, 2004


Upcoming Conferences

National UFO Conference - Hollywood, CA - October 29-31, 2004

www.nufoc.org

The 41st Annual NUFOC, like the Bay Area UFO Expo, is being held
at a 4-star hotel, the Renaissance, right in the middle of
Hollywood's famous landmarks. It should be a fabulous weekend
and clearly demonstrates how UFO/ET conference venues continue
to improve. If you have been wanting to visit Hollywood,
Halloween weekend is one of the best times to drop in. Stephen
Bassett will be leading a panel discussion/Q&A of the
exceptional conference speakers on Sunday. There is a huge
entertainment complex with quality restaurants attached to the
hotel. It doesn't get any better than this.

2nd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference - Las Vegas - November
12-14, 2004

www.majesticdocuments.com

Nothing could be more important to the exopolitics of
extraterrestrial-related phenomena than the issue of crashed ET
vehicle retrievals. If they have taken place, the prospect of
sequestered technology is put into play with global
implications. Created by Ryan Wood and his father Dr. Robert
Wood, a legendary researcher and contemporary of Dr. James
McDonald, this conference has quickly moved to the center of
this critical area of study. The Sunset Station Hotel is 3-star
quality, and Vegas is still the best air/hotel/conference value
in the U.S. Stephen Bassett will lead a panel discussion of
conference speakers and is honored to present the Key Note
address at the conference banquet.

Other Conferences

Alternate Realities Conference - Johnson City, TN - September 24-25, 2004

www.alternaterealities.org/


Crop Circle Conference in Vermont - Plainfield, VT - November 5-7, 2004

www.sacredbritain.com/cropcircleconference/


World UFO and Paranormal Expo - Denver, CO - November 6-7, 2004

www.wupe.net/


Signs of Destiny 2004 Conference - Tempe, AZ - November 19-22, 2004

www.chetsnow.com/signs.html


The X-Conference

Production of the 2nd Annual X-Conference remains on hold
pending underwriting support. For samples of the very positive
response to the first event see:

www.paradigmclock.com/X-Conference/Feedback.htm


PRG Website

The listing for print media coverage of PRG/X-PPAC/X-Conference
has been updated at:

www.paradigmclock.com/articles/PRGarticles.html

If anyone has a link to an article about PRG etc. not in this
list, please forward to ParadigmRG.nul Thanks.

The PRG Photo Gallery has also been updated at:

www.paradigmclock.com/Gallery/Thumbs_Page.htm

If anyone has photos for possible inclusion in the PRG Gallery,
please mail or email to PRG. Thanks.

Radio/Television/Conference speaking engagements are updated
regularly at:

www.paradigmclock.com/speaking&eventschedule.html


Dr. Michael Salla

Michael Salla essentially lost his status and position at
American University due to the exposure he received leading up
to his speaking at the X-Conference. The AU deans did not like
the "direction of his thinking." If that were the proper
criteria for handing academics their hat, half the professors in
the U.S. would be bagging groceries. This is an "intellectual
ghetto" incident, and American University will eventually regret
this maneuver. PRG will see to it. Michael is one of the nicest
people in this field and demonstrated considerable courage in
the months before the X-Conference. He placed both his job and
his U.S. visiting status at risk in order to express his views.
Whether one agrees with all of Michael's views is not relevant.
What is relevant is the 1st Amendment, academic freedom and the
end to the now destructive and often disgraceful 57-year truth
embargo.

That said, Dr. Salla has bounced back with a new and exciting
opportunity in Hawaii. That is called "making lemonade," folks.


Governor Bill Richardson

Recently Stephen Bassett had the honor of meeting with Marcia
Schiff, widow of New Mexico Congressman Steven Schiff, and
presenting her with the PRG Award for Political Courage given to
her late husband at the April 2004 X-Conference. Who will stand
with Steven Schiff's legacy?

Perhaps the Governor of New Mexico, Bill Richardson, has decided
to stand with Schiff. In the foreword to the just published
"Roswell Dig Diaries" (Pocket Books), which Richardson most
certainly knew would come out during the presidential campaign,
he states, "the mystery surrounding this crash has never been
adequately explained -- not by independent investigators, and
not by the U.S. government. ...There are as many theories as
there are official explanations. Clearly, it would help everyone
if the U.S. government disclosed everything it knows. =E2=80=A6The
American people can handle the truthA -- no matter how bizarre
or mundane. ... With full disclosure and our best scientific
investigation, we should be able to find out what happened on
that fateful day in July 1947."

Now we have a second powerful member of the Democratic Party
(Richardson was the Chairman of the Democratic National
Convention and on the short list for the VP slot) who has
publicly placed himself on the record regarding the UFO/ET truth
process. The other, of course, is John Podesta, former key aide
and chief of staff to President Clinton.

How is it possible the major news networks (too busy chasing
down phony political documents?) have missed this point: during
one of the ugliest and most partisan political years in American
history two major figures in the Democratic Party have stepped
forward on disclosure and have gone untouched by the Republican
Party operatives? Is it possible both the Democratic leaders AND
the Republican leaders know something about the timing and
direction of the disclosure process? If there is no
extraterrestrial presence engaging the human race, Rill
Richardson and John Podesta should have been roasted, toasted,
drawn, quartered and hung by their heels in the town square by
their neocon Republican adversaries - some of the toughest
inside fighters American politics has ever seen. It hasn't
happened. Why is that the case, Mr. Koppel (Jennings, Rather,
Brocaw, Wallace)?


The CBS "60 Minutes II" Documents Fiasco

How can one not be amused at how intensely producer Mary Mapes
went after the four National Guard documents which proved
forgeries? How quickly they went with the story. Both "60
Minutes" programs have been repeatedly approached to address a
major issue which has hundreds, if not thousands, of documents
supporting the facts regarding extraterrestrial-related
phenomena and a government imposed truth embargo. They do
nothing. The television networks are collapsing in a gush of
reality programming - a last gasp before burial - and the
network news divisions keep finding new ways to make fools of
themselves while the biggest news story in history sits under
their noses. Thank heaven for Shepard Smith.


NASA Genesis Mission

At times the synchronicity, metaphors and timing that occur in
this world can overwhelm. Consider the fate of the returned
Genesis capsule. From the moment of its inception in 1958 NASA
has been a primary victim of the extraterrestrial-related
phenomena truth embargo. The agency designated to explore space
on behalf of the American people would not, could not publicly
acknowledged any evidence it might encounter pointing toward
sentient extraterrestrial beings, living or dead. The stress
this has caused within the agency can only be imagined.

After so many years and many spectacular failures how odd to
watch the centerpiece of the latest malfunction - a shiny
saucer-like craft - wobble to the earth at 200 mph and embed
itself in the sand. Turn the photo on its side and you have
Roswell. Free NASA.

________________________________________________________

Paradigm Research Group
E-mail: ParadigmRG.nul
URL: www.paradigmclock.com
Cell: 202-431-2459
4938 Hampden Lane, #161
Bethesda, MD 20814
_________________________________________________________

1st Annual Exopolitics Expo - The X-Conference
Hilton Washington DC North/Gaithersburg
www.x-conference.com
Tapes/DVDs available at: www.lostartsmedia.com









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                          Re: New Orb Images - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:30:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:46:51 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - King


>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:32:20 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:17:21 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>>>From: Tim Shell <tshell.nul>
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:16:02 -0700
>>>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:46:46 -0400
>>>>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images


<snip a lot>

To all on this thread,

I noticed something in re-examining the orb shot in this thread,
prompted by a private e-mail.

The red ball is not a sphere at all. It is a tilted hexagon. It
is apparent when the image is darkened slightly or when the
color is shifted a little.

This hexagonal shape is a direct reflection of sunlight off the
film plane and shining back through the iris of the camera and
reflecting off the back of the lens elements and back onto the
film plane.

This is a common effect, displayed clearly in my previous
prismatic flare image.

The red ball is a hexagonal iris silhouette. The only fact
needed to cement this conclusion is the make and model of the
camera used.


Regards,

Kyle







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             Rolling, Rolling, Rolling, Keep Them Rovers Rolling

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:58:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:49:32 -0400
Subject: Rolling, Rolling, Rolling, Keep Them Rovers Rolling


http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/09/22/mars.rovers.ap/index.html

This post header is of course a knock off of the popular TV
western theme from the show, Rawhide.

After a 2 week 'cone of silence' the rovers are back at it and
NASA has extended funding for their mission.

Sometimes NASA builds things that just won't quit. It's about
time they get the kudos considering the dangers, budgets,
politics they have to overcome just to get these missions up and
going.

If memory serves, aren't the Pioneer and Voyager craft still
kicking? I believe one of them is.


Best,

Greg








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              Hopkins' Techniques [was: Magonia - The Truth Is

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:23:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:51:48 -0400
Subject: Hopkins' Techniques [was: Magonia - The Truth Is


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:28:29 -0300
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:35:36 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:39:59 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

><snip>

>>I find it incredible that anyone can regard Hopkins' technique
>>as "highly professional" - I watched a television documentary
>>about abduction (unfortunately I don't recall which one,
>>probably one of the "sightings" series). In the programme, he
>>was interviewing a young child, no more than seven years old. He
>>asked the child "which one of these did the alien look like?"
>>and proceeded to show him a series of drawings of aliens.

>>Now, I am no Psychologist, but even I can see how suggestive
>>this is - first of all, the entity is confirmed as an "alien",
>>then it is implied that it must look like one of a selection of
>>drawings of aliens. If anyone doubts that this is what took
>>place on the video, say so and I shall look through my video
>>collection and try to identify which programme it was and
>>provide direct quotes from it.

>>Do List members consider the above to be an example of "highly
>>professional" interviewing technique? I certainly don't!

>That was a hatchet job done deliberately by NOVA. After hearing
>how the director  and editors at NOVA spun the story to convey
>just wbhat you are referring to, I lost much of my respect for
>that program and do not trust its opinion anymore. There are
>others that can describe much better than I what a sham that
>episode was.

I think I remember seeing that documentary and what isn't
mentioned is that the set of drawings shown to the child also
included non-alien images including Santa Claus.

I also don't think Hopkins used the word "alien" to the child.

I do agree that showing a predefined set of images to the child
was probably not the best route to take and he should have
simply asked the child to try and draw pictures, without any
kind of coaxing, of all things the kid had done or experienced
around that time.

The 'coaxing' technique has been used all too often by
investigators trying to gather 'evidence' in child molestation
cases.


Terry








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                  Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:02:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:53:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Harney


>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:31:01 +0100 (BST)
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:48:38 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>I have to judge by what they actually write, and they write
>>utter nonsense about greys floating through walls to abduct
>>people, alien implants, etc.

>You still haven't answered the question. You have made an
>absolute statement about something. I want to know on what
basis
>of credentials do you make this statement? Are you experienced
>in this field?

I don't need any special qualifications, just elementary logic
and a bit of common sense.

>Of course we all know you're not John. The experience you have
>here is the experience of picking up a book, reading it, and
>then making a pronouncement. Perhaps this is a new type of
>science? Seems like sound scientific methodolgy!

>How can you expect to be taken seriously with knee-jerk emotive
>responses like this? Isn't life supremely ironic when roles get
>swapped? Isn't this the sort of thing you'd say to a "believer"
>who will prattle on about something without the slightest trace
>of proof or evidence?

It's not for me to disprove your strange notions. Logically,
believers must provide evidence to support their beliefs.

<snip>

>There are not two possible explanations for Katharina Wilson's
>experiences. There are at least three and possibly more. The
>third being that what she claims she experienced actually
>happened. Too ridiculous for words? Then go back to your
>knitting or playing bingo or whatever it is that you near-London
>types do to while away the early autumn evenings.

Yes. Too ridiculous for words. I couldn't have put it better
myself.

John Harney






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                  Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:41:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:55:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Harney


>From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:44:10 +0100
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:48:38 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>I have to judge by what they actually write, and they write
>>utter nonsense about greys floating through walls to abduct
>>people, alien implants, etc.

>Brad Sparks recently said something here to the effect that the
>ETH in its general form was unfalsifiable, and that people
>should try to develop more specific forms of the ETH that could
>be tested. I'd be all in favor of this if only I had the
>slightest idea how anyone could go about doing it. But I take it
>as almost certainly the case that hypotheses about greys
>floating through walls to abduct people, alien implants etc are
>quite unfalsifiable.

>You seem to be saying rather more than this, however, and
>claiming that there are good reasons to discard such hypotheses
>a priori. To date, though, you haven't provided any good reasons
>to back this up - not on this List, anyway.

The abduction narratives fail to make much sense as descriptions
of physical events, even if we accept the idea of aliens in
spcecraft. There is no physical evidence which could not have a
mundane explanation. The abductees never provide any significant
facts which are not already known. In other words, their stories
do not contain any information in the sense that explorers
returning from newly discovered lands provided new and often
surprising information (which could eventually be verified).

>Some of the phenomena associated with UFO abduction reports can
>be accounted for in terms of known psychological processes, but
>to account for all of them we would need to postulate additional
>psychological processes for which we have only the flimsiest of
>evidence, or even no evidence at all. And we have the problem
>also that it's hard to estimate the prior probability of any
>hypothesis - as I mentioned recently, one could quite reasonably
>argue that the prior probability of the ETH was 50% or more.

Which of the phenomena associated with abduction reports cannot
be accounted for in terms of known psychological processes? If we
could have the relevant details we might be able to conduct a
more constructive and informative debate.

>The argument you present here (insofar as it's an argument at
>all) rather resembles what in consciousness studies is sometimes
>called a "boggle" argument, in that it asserts that some
>proposition cannot be true because the mind boggles at the
>prospect. But "boggle" arguments aren't reliable - one would
>surely expect that alien technology would have the capacity to
>boggle the mind at least a little - I'm sure you're aware of
>Arthur C Clarke's "law" that any sufficiently advanced
>technology would be indistinguishable from magic. (Clarke, of
>course, is a profound UFO skeptic of the devout kind, rather
>than the critical kind.)

The idea of aliens abducting people is rejected, not because it
seems too far-fetched, but because the of the lack of
convincing, verifiable evidence. Clarke's "law" is often dragged
into the argument in an attempt to plug this gap, by saying that
we don't have the evidence because the alien technology is too
advanced and the aliens can conceal or reveal their activities
as they see fit, always making sure no one gets hold of
convincing proof. (Hopkins takes this idea to extremes in
Witnessed.)

>>>Wouldn't any sensible and responsible person agree that
>>>concern for Katharina Wilson's mental health is a rather more
>>>constructive attitude than apparently taking her story as
>>>being a true account of objectively real events?

>I've long since lost track of who actually is supposed to have
>written this, but there's simply no way I'm going to buy this as
>an expression of concern for anyone's mental health. It looks
>much more like a rather odious attempt to exploit the social
>stigma against psychiatric disorder for the purposes of
>rhetoric.

Who said anything about social stigma? It is much better to
speak plainly, rather than be mealy-mouthed about it. What I
found objectionable was people expressing the view that the
story about Katharina Wilson wandering around O'Hare airport was
an account of weird physical events rather than some kind of
mental fugue or altered state of consciousness (or whatever the
technical term is).

>I haven't read Magonia, so I can't comment on the general
>standard of its articles, but from what I see of it here, at
>least some of its contributors appear to be representing
>themselves as informed commentators on the state of UFOlogy who
>adhere to a somewhat higher standard of objectivity and
>methodology than is generally the case. However if what I see
>here is in any way representative, I don't see that the signal-
> to-noise ratio - in terms of the amount of spin, rhetoric and
>innuendo as opposed to evidence and coherent logic - is any
>better than in the rest of UFOlogy.

No, you've got it wrong. Logically,is for the _believers_ to
provide the evidence.


John Harney








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             Re: Shattered Trees Found At Argentine Impact Area

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:26:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:57:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Shattered Trees Found At Argentine Impact Area


>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:47:38 -0400
>Subject: Shattered Trees Found At Argentine Impact Area

A possibly minor point for anyone following this up:

The event reportedly "caused damage to at least 150 square
meters of forested area within the National Park" and over an
area measuring "more or less forty meters across". These figures
appear to be associated with the same damage location but are
grossly inconsistent by about an order of magnitude. The story
later mentions the possibility of a second damage location.
Perhaps this explains the confusion.


Martin Shough










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              Re: Hopkins' Techniques [was: Magonia - The Truth

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:28:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:19:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Techniques [was: Magonia - The Truth


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:35:36 +0100
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:39:59 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>One does not have to agree with Hopkins' conclusions to agree
>>that his methods are highly professional. I'm baffled that
>>someone would even make such a statement.

>Hello Kyle, Greg, Jerry, List,

>I find it incredible that anyone can regard Hopkins' technique
>as "highly professional" - I watched a television documentary
>about abduction (unfortunately I don't recall which one,
>probably one of the "sightings" series). In the programme, he
>was interviewing a young child, no more than seven years old. He
>asked the child "which one of these did the alien look like?"
>and proceeded to show him a series of drawings of aliens.

>Now, I am no Psychologist, but even I can see how suggestive
>this is - first of all, the entity is confirmed as an "alien",
>then it is implied that it must look like one of a selection of
>drawings of aliens. If anyone doubts that this is what took
>place on the video, say so and I shall look through my video
>collection and try to identify which programme it was and
>provide direct quotes from it.

>Do List members consider the above to be an example of "highly
>professional" interviewing technique? I certainly don't!

Here's another example of a similar procedure by Hopkins. In his
book "Witnessed" (Chapter 26) he tells the story of Johnny
(Linda's younger son) being presented with a diver's helmet by a
man who approached him in the street and offered it to him. On
being told this story, Hopkins thought it might be the
mysterious "third man". So, to attempt to verify this he cut out
a photo of the "third man" from the New York Times, together
with the photos of 19 other "distinguished-looking older men"
and had them copied, scaled to approximately the same size.

He gave them to Johnny to look at and see if one of them looked
like the man who gave him the helmet. Fair enough, so far. Now,
as I see it, the proper thing to do would have been to have left
him to himself, or with someone who had no idea which photo
Hopkins was hoping he would choose. It is thus not impossible,
indeed probably quite likely, that Johnny could tell - perhaps
subconsciously - from the expression on Hopkins's face, or
general body language, which picture he was expected to choose,
and of course he duly chose the "right" one.

Highly professional? You've got to be joking.


John Harney








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                    Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:18:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:22:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Hatch


>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:49:52 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Re: Close Encounter In Alaska

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 02:00:24 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounter In Alaska

>>>I spoke with this witness, who had a fascinating story to tell.
>>>This case would be very worthwhile to follow up, if it wasn't
>>>for the fact that the location is so isolated.

>>>Bettles, Alaska
>>>September 17, 2004, 02:30 am

>>Oooh! That's a neat one. Too bad there is only one witness. Were
>>there any audible subjective indications of credibility or
>>reliability when you spoke to him?

>Larry:

>Neat is right. Yes, my impression of him during our
>conversation was that he seemed sincere and was truly shaken by
>his experience. He wasn't seeking publicity and was trying
>desperately to find others in his area who might be able to
>corroborate what he had seen. He had contacted the weather
>station personnel, several "neighbors" (some miles away) and was
>going to himself check with Anchorage ATC. He said that checks
>with other residents found that trees blocked the view between
>his location and all other possible witnesses.

>I did not get the impression he was making this up or that he
>was delusional. There was some difficulty in talking with him
>because he was on a radiophone with some voice echo and lag.

>>I take it the guy was 2 miles South of Bettles, AK. Is that
>>right? I will look for an airstrip south of that town. Should be
>>close enough, I try to get within one minute of long/lat.

>I believe the place is technically called Bettles Field, AK,
>since it's just some outlying houses surrounding the airfield,
>as far as I was able to tell.

Hi again Chris:

I found the place and it checks out on Airnav.com. For now, its
highlighted on this map of Alaska - Yukon that I just put up:

http://www.larryhatch.net/AKYUK.html

Look for the red dot between two green arrows. Remote is an
understatement. Please advise of any factual errors in the brief
text on that page.

Now I'm going to browse up what there may be known about
Bettles, AK .. whether there is anything aside from remoteness
that could have attracted a UFO.

What's a 24 hour airfield and weather station doing there for
one thing? Looks like a good place for a dog sled way-station
maybe, or a prospector's encampment, but I don't know the turf.


Best

Larry









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                        Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:31:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:33:48 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:02:02 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:32:20 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>>>This prismatic effect is common when shooting in the direction
>>>of the Sun, and this photo clearly is shooting toward the Sun,
>>>as opposed to away from it.

>>I have seen lots of flares, but not with this much "prismatic
>>effect."

>>>If the camera field of view were larger, the Sun would be in the >
>>>photo. Classic lens flare. It would be notable if it were absent
>>>under such conditions.

>>I would say "unusual lens flare". Does anyone have a lens flare
>>photo with this much color aberration ("white" sun making a red
>>flare?) Eric Byler (who investigated the case and interviewed
>>the witness) examined several dozen photos to try to find a
>>similar lens flare situation and couldn't.

>Here's an example of a prismatic flare creating a red, or in
>this case violet ball. If you look closely, you can even see a
>bluish or greenish ball about center of the frame. The sun angle
>is not the same as in the orb photo, but it isn't far off.

>http://acmeme.org/all/travel/singapore/nyc/lens_flare_censors.JPG

The above and also the next photo in this collection show a rond
flare. In each case the sun is so close to the top of the field
of view and so bright that there is a glare at the top of the
photo. In fact, if that is a digital photo, it might be that the
sun actually barely in the picture.

>The point is that lens flare depends on lens coatings,
>cleanliness of the lens, sun position, etc. To say that lens
>flare never looks like the orb photo is not a scientificially
>valid statement.

I agree that a flare can look round... like the lens aperture shape.
The question then is, was the sun bright enough and actually
shining on the lens in the Oregon photo.

>The flare in question in the orb photo could easily have been
>visible to the man holding the camera. Note heavily that he did
>not see it until he was looking through the camera viewfinder.
>Lens flare is not solely an in-camera effect. If the reflection
>was particularly strong, his eye could have been dazzled by it,
>.and the flare persisted when he moved the camera.

There is nothing in the picture which indicates a bright,
dazzling reflection which would likely lead to an overexposed
image of some sort.

>As often
>happens with such effects, the eye follows what it perceives to
>be motion, and as it fades it appears to move up and away. The
>illusion is that its dimming is due to distance, when it is
>actually simply the retina recovering from the dazzle.

>You can test this yourself with a camera flash, although it is
>not a 'very comfortable test. The "blue dot" seen after the
>flash appears to move and to fade into the distance over time.
>Neither of these effects is real, yet they are very convincing
>effects.

The after-image idea is an interesting attempt to explain the
witness' statement that after the picture he took the camera
away from his eye to look at the red ball and after a few
seconds it rose upward and hovered. He was about to take another
picture when it zipped away toward the west. For this to happen
his eye would have to rotate suddenly... carrying the dazzle
spot with it.... without him realizing it, and then disappear
immediately without slowly fading out as dazzle spots tend to
do. In fact, if he had been dazzled by an exceeding bright red
flash in the camera lens (a dazzling red that didn't overexpose
the film), then it is likely he would have seen a pale blue or a
complementary color spot in his eye.

Also, only one eye would be dazzled. Yet both eyes would see a
real red glowing... whatever... after he removed the camera if
the red ball were real... not in the camera.

You'd think, if it was a one eye dazzle (razzle dazzle?) he
would realize that fact at the time.

I should point out that if this were like the typical photo that
people send me showing some image of a presumed object that they
didn't see at the time, i.e., if there was no visual sighting
(other than when looking through the camera) I would put this
down to some sort of odd flare or light leak. At my web site you
can read the argument over the flare hypothesis between me and
others including Jeff Sainio during the investigation.


Incidently, the best URL to use is:


http://brumac.8k.com/ORedSphere/OregonRedSphere.html









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             Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:31:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:37:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -


>From: Mike Christman <mschristman.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:21:19 +0200
>Subject: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident


>Cosmic Curiosity: Naval History Magazine Reports on August, 1952
>Incident

Anyone with access to the Blue Book file could look to see
if there is a file on it.

In 1977 I filed a FOIPA request with the Navy for any and all UFO
reports in their files. I based my request upon a report found
in the FBI file, a Navy report from Kodiak, Alaska in Feb 1950
I think it was. I received a response that all the Navy could find
was the photo analysis of the Tremonton and Gt. Falls Movies.
(That analysis had been done in 1952 at the Navy
Photo Interpretation Center... NPIC). Perhaps the Navy
intentionally "lost" UFO reports?






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                Re: Sheaffer Superciliously Silly - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:33:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:07:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheaffer Superciliously Silly - Maccabee


>Source: CSICOP On-Line

>http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-07/psychic-vibrations.html


>Psychic Vibrations
>Toutatis Threatens Totally

>Robert Sheaffer

>Heads upthe End of the World is coming again! This time it's
>he asteroid 4179 Toutatis, which, according to no less an
>authority than the celebrated Swiss UFO contactee Billy Meier,

<snip>

>For another example of the truly stellar quality of contemporary
>"scientific" UFO research (pun intended), see The Lawton
>Triangle UFO Hoax at http://ufohoax.tripod.com. In March 2002,
>hoaxer Carl Wilson submitted a dubious-looking, indistinct photo
>of red and white lights against a black background to Jim
>Hickman, a "research specialist" with MUFON, the largest UFO
>group in the U.S. He wrote of seeing these lights in the night
>sky over Lawton, Oklahoma. Hickman sent a copy of the photo to
>Bruce Maccabee, the best-known "scientific" UFO photo analyst,
>who has "authenticated" many classic UFO photos such as those
>from McMinnville, Oregon, and Gulf Breeze, Florida. It didn't
>take long for Maccabee to conclude "unless someone has a better
>idea, I would have to classify this as a True UFO (TRUFO), which
>might be some sort of Alien Flying Craft (AFC) (or two such
>craft)?"

>Not content with fooling the "experts" once, a few months later
>Wilson submitted to Hickman a similar photo, purportedly of a
>UFO seen hovering over Fort Sill, Oklahoma, near Lawton. Hickman
>again sent a copy to Maccabee, who could barely contain his
>excitement: "Wow! Got to pull out all the stops on this one! A
>rare event, two photos of the same (apparently) thing!"

>Were these two photos of some alien craft? No, says Wilson: "In
>reality, these pictures were nothing more than a picture of
>Microsoft Optical Mouse taken with the room lights and camera
>flash turned off!" When he revealed his hijinks on the Internet
>newsgroup alt.alien.research, many asked him whether he was a
>paid government debunker. He replies, "I did it to demonstrate
>how easy it is to fool the so-called UFO experts' and how
>willing they are to take any claim at face value. But rather
>than learn from this example, their reaction was one of
>hostility." And he reports being harassed in many ways. Wilson
>concludes, "Clearly many of those involved with or supporting
>UFO research' are less interested in Finding the Truth' as
>they claim, as they are in silencing their critics."

I invite anyone to read my report on this at:

http://brumac.8k.com/LawtonTriangle/Lawtontriangle.html

All Mr. Wilson proved is that someone who is serious about
creating a hoax can do a good job of it.

A photo cannot prove a UFO case but it can disprove one. In this
case the photo did not disprove the testimony.

This one hoax certainly does not disprove TRUFO reality, nor
does it show "how easy it is to fool UFO experts." Mr. Wilson
had to work for his hoax. In a situation like this it's either
the real thing or a hoax (not a misidentification) and Mr.
wilson was careful to avoid doing or saying anything that would
point directly toward a hoax. He was cooperative and carried out
tests I recommended. The "UFO experts" spent time over several
months before arriving at a tentative conclusion ("unless
someone has a better idea, I would have to classify it as a
TRUFO").

If you read the information on the above web site and compare
with what Sheaffer has written you will see how Sheaffer has
trivialized the investigation and analysis in order to make
ufologists look ridiculous.

All he does is make himself look... well, maybe superciliously
silly.









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   Sep > Sep 23

                               Dazed & Amused

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:28:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:13:29 -0400
Subject: Dazed & Amused


Source: Michael Bie's Classic Wisconsin

http://www.classicwisconsin.com/features/ufo.html >

07-27-04


Dazed and Amused

Don is a 60-something year-old retired metalworker from Beaver
Dam. He's dressed neatly in brown slacks and a matching brown
shirt, his silver-streaked hair combed and parted on the side.
He is standing outside Benson's Hideaway, a tavern near Dundee,
Wis., on the shores of Long Lake.

"The speed of their craft is 48 to 52 light years an hour," Don
explained. "They come over me and they put down a blue beam of
light so extremely bright that you would go blind instantly if
you look at it, but it will not illuminate anything, and I'm
taken aboard their ship.

"I've had 68 scheduled flights and 12 non-scheduled flights."

Two Wisconsin communities, Belleville and Elmwood, hold annual
festivals to capitalize on reported UFO sightings in their
areas. The festivals typically entail parades with local kids
dressed as Martians, beer tents, brat stands, maybe some live
music.

UFO Daze in Dundee is different. Really different. As different
as the planets Earth and Surak, which, by the way, is the home
of Monn.

Who the hell is Monn? You will have to come to Dundee to find
out. Standing among the hundred or so people milling around
Benson's Hideaway you'll grow accustomed to hearing
conversations about "shadow people," "reptilians" (bad aliens)
and "grays" (good aliens, except for a few bad apples). Monn,
apparently, is a good alien.

The annual gathering is the swap meet for true believers.
Instead of swapping car parts or antique coins, the attendees
happily share personal accounts of life with aliens. Like Don,
the frequent flyer who began traveling aboard alien spacecrafts
at age 2, "give or take 6 months," according to his
recollections. The aliens gave Don "implants" to monitor his
whereabouts. The implants expired a week before Christmas 1998.

"When I had my implants they could locate me an hour before they
hit the sun's gravitational pull," Don said. "Most people think
it's a nighttime situation. It is not. It's day or night,
whenever they need you.

"I have been taken straight through a stone wall that was four
feet thick. They have taken me through three floors of a
building. They have taken me out of a whole group of military
people while I was in service and everybody said, 'We were
talking to you and all of a sudden all that was there was your
clothing.'"

Some UFO Daze attendees are part of an organization called
Lightside, which meets monthly in an Oshkosh Goodwill store.
Lightside member Bonnie Meyer is promoting her forthcoming book
"Alien Contact: The Messages They Bring."

"We all have had benevolent sightings and contacts with highly
advanced spiritual aliens," said one Lightside member speaking
of the group. Meyer is an exceptional "channeler," according to
her peers. "Through channeling we became reacquainted with our
ET contacts, as we come here without full memory. The ET team
that we work with lives on a ship that we have nicknamed the
Peace Ship. The Peace Ship is roughly the size of Chicago and
circles the Earth just outside our atmosphere."

The scenic little crossroads of Dundee, in the Northern Unit of
the Kettle Moraine State Forest, has had its share of UFO
sightings through the years. Hideaway owner Bill Benson has a
binder to prove it -- pages of photos showing strange lights
above the forest, as well as a crop circle in a nearby field. He
is not a true believer, but truly believes that UFO Daze is good
for business, so for 16 years he has hosted the gathering and
served a ton of the Hideaway's homemade pizzas.

In addition to 25 or so true believers who attend, dozens more
are curious, even more are weekend campers looking for a good
party.

"On my last trip aboard the craft before my implants expired,"
Don said, "I asked to see the Titanic. They took me under the
ocean and we talked to the creatures of the deep...and I got to
see the Titanic."

Then his pizza arrived, and Don walked away to find a place to
eat.








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                        Science Fiction? Not Any More

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:35:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:20:54 -0400
Subject: Science Fiction? Not Any More


Source: The Economist Print Edition

http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=3171407

09-16-04


Communications: Taking its cue from Star Trek, an American
company has devised a clever new form of voice-driven wireless
communicator

SCIENCE fiction has often been the source of inspiration for new
technologies. The exo-skeletons and head-mounted displays
featured in the film Aliens, for example, spawned a number of
military-funded projects to try to create similar technologies.
Automatic sliding doors might never have become popular had they
not appeared on the television series Star Trek. And the
popularity of flip-top or clamshell mobile phones may stem from
the desire to look like Captain Kirk flipping open his
communicator on the same programme.

Now it seems that Star Trek has done it again. This month,
American soldiers in Iraq will begin trials of a device inspired
by the 'comm-badge' featured in Star Trek: The Next Generation.
Like crew members of the starship Enterprise, soldiers will be
able to talk to other members of their unit just by tapping and
then speaking into a small badge worn on the chest. What sets
the comm badge apart from a mere walkie-talkie, and appeals to
Star Trek fans, is the system's apparent intelligence. It
works out who you are calling from spoken commands, and connects
you instantly.

The system, developed by Vocera Communications of Cupertino,
California, uses a combination of Wi-Fi wireless networking and
voice-over-internet protocol (VoIP) technologies to link up the
badges via a central server, akin to a switchboard. The badges
are already being used in 80 large institutions, most of them
hospitals, to replace overhead paging systems, says Brent Lang,
Vocera's vice-president.

Like its science-fiction counterpart, the badge is designed so
that all functions can be carried out by pressing a single
button. On pressing it, the caller gives a command and specifies
the name of a person or group of people, such as call Dr Smith
or locate the nearest anaesthesiologist. Voice-recognition
software interprets the commands and locates the appropriate
person or group, based on whichever Wi-Fi base-station they are
closest to. The person receiving the call then hears an audible
alert stating the name of the caller and, if he or she wishes to
take the call, responds by tapping the badge and starting to
speak.

That highlights a key difference between the Star Trek comm
badge and the real-life version: Vocera's implementation allows
people to reject incoming calls, rather than having the voice of
the caller patched through automatically. But even the most
purist fans can forgive Vocera for deviating from the script in
this way, says David Batchelor, an astrophysicist and Star
Trek enthusiast at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Centre in
Greenbelt, Maryland. For there are, he notes, some curious
aspects to the behaviour of the comm badges in Star Trek. In
particular, the fictional badge seems to be able to predict the
future. When the captain of the Enterprise says Picard to sick-
bay: Medical emergency on the bridge, for example, his badge
somehow connects him to the sick-bay before he has stated the
destination of the call.

Allowing badge users to reject incoming calls if they are busy,
rather than being connected instantly, was a feature added at
the request of customers, says Mr Lang. But in almost all other
respects the badges work just like their fictional counterparts.
This is not very surprising, says Lawrence Krauss, an
astrophysicist at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland,
Ohio, and the author of The Physics of Star Trek. In science
fiction, and particularly in Star Trek, most problems have
technological fixes. Sometimes, it seems, those fixes can be
applied to real-world problems too.

Vocera's system is particularly well suited to hospitals, says
Christine Tarver, a clinical manager at El Camino Hospital in
Mountain View, California. It allows clinical staff to reach
each other far more quickly than with beepers and overhead
pagers. A recent study carried out at St Agnes Healthcare in
Baltimore, Maryland, assessed the amount of time spent by
clinical staff trying to get hold of each other, both before and
after the installation of the Vocera system. It concluded that
the badges would save the staff a total of 3,400 hours each
year.

Nursing staff often end up playing phone tag with doctors, which
wastes valuable time, says Ms Tarver. And although people using
the badges sometimes look as though they are talking to
themselves, she says, many doctors prefer it because it enables
them to deal with queries more efficiently. The system can also
forward calls to mobile phones; it can be individually trained
to ensure that it understands users with strong accents; and it
can even be configured with personalised ringtones.

In Iraq, soldiers will use the Vocera badges in conjunction with
base-stations mounted on Humvee armoured vehicles. Beyond
medical and military uses, Vocera hopes to sell the technology
to retailers and hotels. And the firm's engineers are now
extending the system to enable the badges to retrieve stored
information, such as patient records or information about a
particular drug, in response to spoken commands. Their
inspiration? Yet another Star Trek technology: the talking
ship's computer.








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                         Captain Kirk Invades Iowa!

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:57:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:26:09 -0400
Subject: Captain Kirk Invades Iowa!


Source: The Star Tribune - Minneapolis Minnesota

http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/4994099.html

09-22-04


William Shatner Auditioning Iowans For Low-Budget Sci-Fi Movie

RIVERSIDE, Iowa -- Capt. James T. Kirk came home to Riverside
this week.

William Shatner, who played the commander of the starship USS
Enterprise in the '60s Star Trek series, arrived in Riverside
Tuesday to hold auditions for four small parts in a low-budget,
sci-fi movie he wrote with Star Trek co-star Leonard Nimoy.

The working title of the movie is, Invasion Iowa.

Shatner called the film his baby, and said he's dreamed of
putting the story on the big screen for 30 years.

The 73-year-old actor and more than 100 crew members will be in
Riverside for several days to film scenes for the movie.

Although Kirk's hometown was never mentioned in the TV series,
Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator and executive producer,
wrote in The Making of Star Trek that Kirk was born in a
small town in the state of Iowa.

The Riverside City Council picked up on the idea in March 1985,
declaring a site behind what used to be the town's barbershop
the future birthplace of Kirk.

Shatner is a native of Canada.








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              Re: Hopkins' Technique [was: Magonia - The Truth

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:48:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:29:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique [was: Magonia - The Truth


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:28:29 -0300
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:35:36 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

<snip>

>>Now, I am no Psychologist, but even I can see how suggestive
>>this is - first of all, the entity is confirmed as an "alien",
>>then it is implied that it must look like one of a selection of
>>drawings of aliens. If anyone doubts that this is what took
>>place on the video, say so and I shall look through my video
>>collection and try to identify which programme it was and
>>provide direct quotes from it.

>>Do List members consider the above to be an example of "highly
>>professional" interviewing technique? I certainly don't!

>That was a hatchet job done deliberately by NOVA. After hearing
>how the director  and editors at NOVA spun the story to convey
>just wbhat you are referring to, I lost much of my respect for
>that program and do not trust its opinion anymore. There are
>others that can describe much better than I what a sham that
>episode was.

Hello Don, List,

Don, are you saying that Hopkins was forced to conduct the
interview in this way by NOVA or are you saying that the clip
was shown out of context?

If the latter, I would be interested to know what context would
justify this apparently unprofessional example of his technique?


Cheers,

Joe








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              Re: Hopkins' Technique [was: Magonia - The Truth

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:53:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:31:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique [was: Magonia - The Truth


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 07:38:42 -0500
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:35:36 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

<snip>

>>Now, I am no Psychologist, but even I can see how suggestive
>>this is - first of all, the entity is confirmed as an "alien",
>>then it is implied that it must look like one of a selection of
>>drawings of aliens. If anyone doubts that this is what took
>>place on the video, say so and I shall look through my video
>>collection and try to identify which programme it was and
>>provide direct quotes from it.

>>Do List members consider the above to be an example of "highly
>>professional" interviewing technique? I certainly don't!

<snipd>

Alfred,

Pardon me for my stupidity, I am sure that you were making a
point somewhere in your post, but I was unable to recognise it.
Please can you put it into terms that are readily understood?


Regards,

Joe









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                         Re: New Orb Images - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 06:33:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:33:13 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Hebert


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:32:20 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:17:21 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images
<snip>

>I would say "unusual lens flare". Does anyone have a lens flare
>photo with this much color aberration ("white" sun making a red
>flare?) Eric Byler (who investigated the case and interviewed
>the witness) examined several dozen photos to try to find a
>similar lens flare situation and couldn't.


Hi, Bruce:

I dug around in my collection of lens flare examples and put a
few that may interest you in my photo gallery. Lens flares come
in so many beautiful shapes, sizes and colors.

http://a-realitycheck.com/v-web/gallery/Examples-Of-Lens-Flare

Click on the "slideshow" selection in the upper right hand
corner for easier viewing.


A. Hebert








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                         Re: New Orb Images - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 07:03:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:35:41 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Hebert


>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:52:06 +1000
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:34:48 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Hebert

>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:37:30 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

><snip>

>If I, and others can produce the undeniable evidence that will
>prove the reality of, or confirm the close to lens artefact
>thesis as you and others have suggested by your work in
>falsifying similar images,

Dr. Maccabee, Dr. Haselhoff, myself and others have not
'falsified' anything. We merely reproduced alleged "orb" images
using scientific methodology and found them to be reflections
off dust particles, snow, rain, water, etc.

>then I will gladly openly admit I was
>wrong, if I am. Will you do the same if it is proven you were
>wrong?

You have already been 'proven' wrong, Barry, yet you can't admit
it. I doubt your perceptions will be changing anytime soon.

As I have indicated before, this nonsense is a waste of my and
other people's time. I am moving on to more important matters.


A. Hebert








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                 Strange Reptile Causes Terror In Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:47:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:38:03 -0400
Subject: Strange Reptile Causes Terror In Argentina



INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
September 23, 2004


Source: Diario El Tribuno (Salta, Argentina)
Date: September 22, 2004

In Rosario de Lerma Police looked but found nothing

Strange Reptile Causes Terror

They say it has a huge hairy head and reddish eyes

A "large serpent with a hairy head and reddish eyes" was
intensely searched for up to last nightb by member of the
Provincial Police Fire Brigade after the three individuals in
charge of the Las Acacias hatchery reported seeing the creature
in one of the site's sectors, located between Cerrillos and
Rosario de Lerma on Route 26.

Modesto Gonzales, 60, Jose Venticola, 53 and his wife Ana Maria
Quipildor, 48 reported the appearance of the enormous animal on
Monday to the Rosario de Lerma sheriff's office and requested
protection due to the terror inspired by their sighting of this
beast.

"We were baking bread when my wife saw the head of this
veritable monster emerging from between the holes in the wall of
a brick shack," said Venticola, who added. "I was paralyzed. It
had a snake's head, but hairy, with red eyes and a piercing
gaze."

Firefighters combed the area but found nothing.

"I told my husband and Modesto, who was chopping wood, to kill
it. It was a huge snake," said the woman. "They were going to
cut off its head, which was the size of a hog, with their
machetes, but it went back in when it saw them approach. I've
never seen anything so strange. What I do know is that it isn't
a lampalagua [translator's note - 3 meter long river snake of
the northern Argentina] because I know what those are. I'd never
come across a hairy reptile."

Moreover, Mart=EDn Corbal=E1n of the Rosario de Lerma sheriff's
office, stated that "we will continue searching for this
reptile, if that's what it is, to insure the protection of these
people and the neighbors. If we can't find it in the next few
hours we will appeal to animal protection agencies for their
assitance."

"We are not discarding the possibility that it is a northern
constricting snake that reached this hatchery for some reason,"
he concluded.


Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Instiute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
Special thanks to Mercedes Casas.








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                          Secrecy News -- 09/23/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:29:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:40:33 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 09/23/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 83
September 23, 2004


**      GOSS ON DECLASSIFICATION, BUDGET DISCLOSURE
**      CONTROLLED UNCLASSIFIED INFORMATION (DOD)
**      AN INVENTORY OF IRAQI RESISTANCE GROUPS
**      LAWFULNESS OF INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES (CRS)
**      RISK MANAGEMENT AND CRITICAL INFRASTUCTURE (CRS)
**      REQUIREMENTS FOR LINGUISTS IN GOVT AGENCIES (CRS)
**      LIECHTENSTEIN RATIFIES COMPREHENSIVE TEST BAN TREATY


GOSS ON DECLASSIFICATION, BUDGET DISCLOSURE

Porter J. Goss, who was confirmed by the Senate yesterday to be
the next Director of Central Intelligence, told Senators that
declassification had become "easier" as a result of legislation
that he helped pass. But that isn't true.

At a September 20 confirmation hearing, Senator Ron Wyden
pressed Rep. Goss to identify "one or two concrete examples"
where he had demonstrated leadership to bring about intelligence
reform.

Mr. Goss cited a bill sponsored by the late Senator Moynihan
that he helped to advance.

"We did pass a bill, bicameral, bipartisan -- a first step. It
wasn't as much as either of us wanted, but it was a good step,
and it is the law, and it has made it easier now in the
declassification process," he said.

In fact, however, that law, known as the Public Interest
Declassification Act, has not been implemented even though it
was enacted in 2000. Consequently, it has made nothing "easier."

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2004/09/goss092004.html

Last week, Sen. Chuck Hagel asked Mr. Goss whether he favored
disclosure of the intelligence budget. Goss replied that he did
not and he explained why.

Budget secrecy "served us well... when we were in a bipolar
standoff with the Soviet Union," Mr. Goss said. "I'm not sure
what the future holds... I think the day may come when we find
ourselves in another sort of bipolar situation."

This peculiar statement appears to concede that budget secrecy
serves no legitimate purpose today. See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/09/ssci091404.html

Mr. Goss was confirmed by the Senate on September 22 by a vote
of 77-17. See the transcript of the deliberations on the Senate
floor here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2004_cr/goss092204.html


CONTROLLED UNCLASSIFIED INFORMATION (DOD)

Controlled Unclassified Information (CUI) is yet another
specimen in the growing menagerie of government restrictions on
unclassified information.

CUI is a Department of Defense information control category.

According to the Pentagon, CUI "includes, but is not limited to
(!), 'For Official Use Only' information; 'Sensitive But
Unclassified' (formerly 'Limited Official Use') information;
'DEA Sensitive Information'; 'DOD Unclassified Controlled
Nuclear Information'; 'Sensitive Information', as defined in the
Computer Security Act of 1987; and information contained in
technical documents."

See this DoD PowerPoint briefing on "controlled unclassified
information" (thanks to RT):

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dod/cui.ppt

The Government Accountability Office will review the panoply of
controls on unclassified information used by the Department of
Homeland Security, the Washington Times reported on September
22.


AN INVENTORY OF IRAQI RESISTANCE GROUPS

The numerous and diverse armed groups that are violently
opposing U.S. forces in Iraq are itemized and categorized in a
September 19 news article published in Baghdad.

"After the fall of Baghdad into the hands of the Anglo-American
occupation on 9 April 2003, as a natural reaction, several
sectors of Iraqi society confronted the occupation. Resistance
cells were formed, the majority of which were of Islamic Sunni
and pan-Arab tendencies. These cells started in the shape of
scattered groups, without a unifying bond to bind them
together."

"These groups and small cells started to grow gradually, until
they matured to some extent and acquired a clear personality
that had its own political and military weight. Then they
started to pursue combining themselves into larger groups."

See "Who Kills Hostages in Iraq?" by Samir Haddad and Mazin
Ghazi in the Iraqi newspaper Al-Zawra, September 19 (translated
by the CIA's Foreign Broadcast Information Service):

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/09/az091904.html


LAWFULNESS OF INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES (CRS)

The legality of interrogation techniques used by U.S. military
intelligence personnel in Iraq is the subject of a recent report
from the Congressional Research Service.

"This report outlines the provisions of the Conventions as they
apply to prisoners of war and to civilians, and the minimum
level of protection offered by Common Article 3 of the Geneva
Conventions."

"The report discusses and analyzes some of the various
interrogation techniques approved or considered for use during
interrogations of prisoners at Abu Ghraib."

The CRS does not permit direct public access to its products.
But see "Lawfulness of Interrogation Techniques Under the Geneva
Conventions," September 8, 2004, here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32567.pdf


RISK MANAGEMENT AND CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE (CRS)

Another new Congressional Research Service report deemed unfit
for public consumption is:

"Risk Management and Critical Infrastructure Protection:
Assessing, Integrating, and Managing Threats, Vulnerabilities
and Consequences," September 2:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RL32561.pdf


REQUIREMENTS FOR LINGUISTS IN GOVT AGENCIES (CRS)

The challenge of meeting the foreign language needs of U.S.
national security and other government agencies is explored at
some length in yet another Congressional Research Service
report.

"There is a widespread consensus that requirements for foreign
language qualified personnel are not currently being met," the
CRS notes.

Firing competent translators who expose agency malfeasance
doesn't help.

See "Requirements for Linguists in Government Agencies,"
Congressional Research Service, September 2:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32557.pdf


LIECHTENSTEIN RATIFIES COMPREHENSIVE TEST BAN TREATY

Liechtenstein ratified the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty
(CTBT) on 21 September 2004, bringing the total number of Treaty
ratifications to 116.

The United States, which has not ruled out the resumption of
nuclear explosive testing, opposes the Treaty.

The Liechtenstein breakthrough was announced in this September
22 news release from the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty
Organization Preparatory Commission:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/09/ctbt092204.html


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood.nul
voice: (202) 454-4691









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                         UFO in Santa Fe Argentina?

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:54:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:53:51 -0400
Subject: UFO in Santa Fe  Argentina?


INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
September 23, 2004

Source:http://www.sinmordaza.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=17633

ate: September 22, 2004

A UFO Over Santa Fe?

It was photographed by a colleague by sheer chance. At 21:20
hours on  September 20th, in the northern part of the city, as
he was taking photos of the movements and effects caused in the
sky by the searchlight employed during the Sixth Biennial Youth
Art Festival held at the U.N.L. That was when a light crossed
his path.

He didn't know what it was until he saw the 17 photos taken.
Upon enlarging them, he realized that it was a solid object with
a metallic center. Even though his camera was set for maximum
definition and sharpness, he could notice a wake.

In other photos taken of the searchlight, a ray of light could
be seen coming down from above. This appeared to the right of
the event mentioned. The enlarged photo shows the details
mentioned. The other shows the actual site where the photo was
taken--the roof of a neighbor's house. Was it a UFO inspecting
the searchlight or just a trick of nature?


Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales IHU
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi








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                      SPI Business 22nd September 2004

From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:04:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:58:03 -0400
Subject: SPI Business 22nd September 2004

-----

From: Malcolm Robinson <malckyspi.nul
Date: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 2:58 PM
Subject: SPI Business 22nd September 2004


Hi All,

Some current updates:

SPI Lecture This Saturday

Do remember that Brenda Butler is not now our guest speaker this
saturday, we have secured the service of two wonderful chaps,
Chris Robinson on his talent as someone who can predict the
future with ease !! And Dr Melvyn Willin on ghostly music,
spooky. So do please show your support to SPI once more this
Saturday.

Friends Of SPI

For those of you who have not yet signed up as a Friend Of SPI,
forms will be available on Saturday, or why not download one
from our web site at www.spiuk.net By becoming a Friend you are
entitled to a =A31:00 discount off every single SPI event no
matter what.

Enigmas

The latest issue of ENIGMAS the Journal of SPI will be available
for sale at this Saturday's lecture. For those who can't attend
and wish to obtain the latest issue, please send a cheque for
=A32:50 to the address below.

25th Anniversary.

As mentioned before, this year marks SPI's 25th birthday, we
were founded way back in 1979 off the back of the famous
Livingston UFO case. We shall be having a party after the Reg
Presley lecture on Saturday November 27th, more details when I
have them. But the Sols Arms has been booked for the full day.

Upcoming Events

I am presenting a lecture on the infamous 'Fife UFO Case' at a
two day International UFO Conference in Lytham St Annes over the
weekend of 9th 10th October. Please see me at this Saturday's
lecture for more details. Sadly I can't stay for the Sunday at
Lytham as I have to make a quick dash to get back to London as I
am presenting a second lecture at the Wimbledon Spiritualist
Church, this time on ghosts and the paranormal (Sunday 10th
October 7:30pm)

SPI Web Site

Pleased to say that Brian James is back doing the web site, We
are still encoutering some problems with uploading data which is
a cause for concern and has been for quite some time now, but we
are staying the course and using that big iron to smooth the
problems over. By the way, we are looking for submissions for
the web site and our mag, why not write something for us ? Have
you had a strange experience (keep it clean !) that you want to
share with us, if so, drop me a line.

2005 Guest Speakers

I'm pleased to say that we are building up a fine team of
speakers for our 2005 London Lecture programme. Also pleased to
say that we will be giving you true value for money by ensuring
that each month you will have TWO yes TWO guest speakers instead
of the more often one speaker which we put on at the moment.

In closing, this is my 60th day without a cigarette, so I'm
quite chuffed with that. Generally it's been OK, but there is
the odd day, but the will power is still there at the moment.

OK hope to see you all Saturday. My best wishes to
you all.

Malcolm Robinson
Founder Strange Phenomena Investigations
25th Anniversary Year 1979-2004.
www.spiuk.net

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Malcolm Robinson (SPI)
41b Handsworth Road,
Tottenham, London,
England, N17 6DB.
Tel: 07949 178 835







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                       Re: Some Co-Incidence - Holman

From: Brett Holman <b.holman.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:39:30 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:00:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Some Co-Incidence - Holman


>From: Brett Holman <b.holman.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 01:30:19 +1000
>Subject: Re: Some Co-Incidence

>No - the mass or density of Phobos and Deimos cannot be inferred
>from this data. However, the mass of *Mars* could be inferred
>from the orbital properties of its moons, it might be
>interesting to do those calculations for Swift's moons and see
>if they give sensible answers... I'll try to do this if I find
>the time.

OK, I've done the sums now... assuming Swift had an accurate
knowledge of Mars' diameter (unlike its mass, this could have
been measured with the telescopes of his day; however, it
appears the first to actually do so was William Herschel, a few
decades after Swift), then the mass of Mars implied by the
Swiftian moons is 0.64 Earth masses (the orbit of each moon
yields the same answer, to two significant figures). The actual
mass of Mars is more like 0.11 Earth masses (and crunching the
numbers for the orbits of the real Phobos and Deimos gives this
result also). So Swift's Mars is too massive by a factor of 5.
If he had some sort of inside information about Mars, it was
surprisingly inaccurate.

I also noticed that some accounts on the web get the distance
Swift gave for the moons from Mars wrong. He gives this distance
from the center of Mars - that is, the orbit's radius (semi-
major axis, near enough) in multiples of Mars' *diameter*, not
it's radius:


They have likewise discovered two lesser stars, or satellites,
which revolve about Mars; whereof the innermost is distant from
the centre of the primary planet exactly three of his diameters,
and the outermost, five; the former revolves in the space of ten
hours, and the latter in twenty-one and a half; so that the
squares of their periodical times are very near in the same
proportion with the cubes of their distance from the centre of
Mars; which evidently shows them to be governed by the same law
of gravitation that influences the other heavenly bodies.

http://www.gutenberg.net/dirs/etext97/gltrv10h.htm


As the radius of Mars is about 3400 km, its diameter is 6800 km
and the Swiftian moons would then have semi-major axes of 20400
km and 34000 km; the real moons have semi-major axes of 9400 km
and 23000 km. So, in fact he was out by roughly 50-100%.
Confusing diameter with radius in Swift's text leads to much
more charitable figures of 10200 km and 17000 km.

As the second half of the quoted extract shows (also usually not
quoted on the web - more mysterious that way, I guess), Swift
was quite familiar with Kepler's laws, and probably Newton's law
of gravitation as well, and so was probably more than capable of
making up some plausible numbers. There's no mystery here.

>As for the discovery of Pluto, it was also just coincidence. I'm
>not sure what else it would be. Lowell's orbit was indeed
>reasonably correct. But his was only one of several trans-
>Neptunian planets predicted or inferred before 1930.

Oops, I forget to mention this link which discusses these other
Planet Xs:

http://www.nineplanets.org/hypo.html#planetx


Brett Holman








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                        Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:54:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:02:29 -0400
Subject: Re:  New Orb Images - Maccabee


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:13:45 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:32:20 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>Here's another flare exhibiting the prismatic effect in grand
>fashion. Again, the sun angle is different, but not grossly so,

Not grossly so? In this photo the sun... most of it blocked by a
beam (part of the framework in the photo) about in the center of
the photo, not above to the left and out of the picture as in
the Oregon photo.

>and the result here is a multitude of colors. As the camera
>swings away from the sun, the intensity and range of color
>becomes less pronounced, as in your orb photo.

>http://www.whatdoesnotchange.org/archives/092203.jpg

>Note that in this photo, the dirty lens heavily enhances the
>flares.

I note that even in this extreme case where the sun is in the
picture and "dazzlingly" bright the flares/reflections are not
particularly bright (they didn't create overexposed images as
the sun did).








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              Re: Hopkins' Techniques [was: Magonia - The Truth

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:20:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:04:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Techniques [was: Magonia - The Truth


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:12:20 +0000
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:35:36 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

><snip>

>>I find it incredible that anyone can regard Hopkins' technique
>>as "highly professional" - I watched a television documentary
>>about abduction (unfortunately I don't recall which one,
>>probably one of the "sightings" series). In the programme, he
>>was interviewing a young child, no more than seven years old. He
>>asked the child "which one of these did the alien look like?"
>>and proceeded to show him a series of drawings of aliens.

>>Now, I am no Psychologist, but even I can see how suggestive
>>this is - first of all, the entity is confirmed as an "alien",
>>then it is implied that it must look like one of a selection of
>>drawings of aliens. If anyone doubts that this is what took
>>place on the video, say so and I shall look through my video
>>collection and try to identify which programme it was and
>>provide direct quotes from it.

>>Do List members consider the above to be an example of "highly
>>professional" interviewing technique? I certainly don't!

>I doubt seriously that is what you saw, and suspect your memory
>is playing tricks on you. Having sat in on quite a few of Budd's
>hypnosis sessions, I have never seen him do any leading
>questioning at all. He would never ask `which one the alien
>looked like.' Furthermore, I am aware of the images test he
>gives at times.It contains an array of images such as clowns,
>other familiar types of people, and one (as I recall) outine-
>style alien face. I have seen him use this. The alien face is
>one of something like 10-12 images.

>Furthermore, although Budd is a friend, I viewed the sessions
>with a critical eye, deliberately looking for poor or leading
>techniques to satisfy myself about these questions. He always
>asked neutral, non-leading questions. The only matter that
>bothers me a little comes with adult subjects who have read UFO
>books and know who Budd is; therefore, they would tend to know
>in advance what kind of answers he might be looking for. Not
>that that is necessarily totally disqualifying either.
>Intelligent adults would also tend to  know what a professional
>psychologist is after.

I believe that I recall the sequence in question and Bud showed
a variety of images, including the traditional alien.  I got the
impression that Bud was being very neutral in how they were
presented, but I'm sure that some will still complain that he
was directing the conversation.

As far as I know, Bud doesn't really get new clients (and I'm
not sure that's the correct term) directly.They are refered to
him by other researchers, often after they've been contacted by
someone who is already claiming to have had some sort of
experience that led them to contact Abduction or UFO
researchers.  I think it's highly unlikely that Bud (or Mack or
Jacobs) are likely to be the first to mention the concept of
alien abduction to those referred to them, which tends to
guarantee the direction that hypnosis sessions are likely to
take.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Steve








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                            Magonia Supplement 52

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:11:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:07:06 -0400
Subject: Magonia Supplement 52


Because of technical problems with the html edition of Magonia
Supplement No. 52 there has been some delay in putting it on
line. It is now available on the Magonia Extra web site -

http://magonia.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk


John Harney








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                      Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:23:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:09:58 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News - King


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:04:20 EDT
>Subject: Re: UFOs Bush And CBS News

>Okay so again the press is in hot water with this new Britney
>Spears' Wedding charade.

>Are we seeing just how easy it is to dupe the press?

>Have the ethics and standards dropped or are people more
>dishonest to the press?

>Whatever the case it shows how the press can be manipulated and
>in the case of ufology, there are umpteen numerous cases with
>far, far more credibility than either the Bush National Guard
>debacle and the Britney Spears' Wedding controversy yet these
>well documented UFO stories don't get anywhere near as much
>press play.

>I guess what we need to get the press' attention is a UFO sex
>scandal or UFO political scandal.

>But then again no one would believe it because it'd read like it
>came from the Weekly World News.


Hi Greg,

I too yearn for the days of Edward R. Murrow, of Woodward and
Bernstein, of journalistic integrity and the concept that the
press bears the burden of a sacred *or at least Constitutional*
trust and should act like it.

A nice practice run for your UFO selling story is the media
handling of the upcoming Nature paper and research by ESA's
Formisano. He was originally slated to announce his findings
suggesting extant life on Mars recently, but then bailed on the
more provocative evidence. His explanation later was that he had
an agreement with Nature not to publicly discuss his provocative
findings.

Here the message was deemed less important than its timing.

Likewise, I think the official announcement of a UFO incident
would be equally manipulated and timed for several beneficial
reasons.

I hope the Nature publishers put a nice huge headline on the
cover... EXTANT LIFE ON MARS!... the data are compelling.

I do not foresee this, but rather a ho-hum, well it might be
somewhat possible... in the absence of other data... too soon
for a conclusive... more probes are needed... kind of
announcement.

The greatest discovery of this or perhaps any century relegated
to the "Weird News" section. Formisano even looks the part of
the disheveled mad scientist...no offense.

And now we can't even depend on maverick old-school dust it up
intrepid reporter's reporter Dan Rather to give us the straight
poop. Even he can be fooled. I still have a sneaking feeling
that there's a UFO tie-in with Rather's *What's the frequency,
Kenneth* abduction experience. :)

Spesei pro Commutatus!,


Kyle









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                 Re: PRG Update - September 22, 2004 - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:35:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:12:34 -0400
Subject: Re: PRG Update - September 22, 2004 - King


>From: Stephen G. Bassett <Disclosure2003.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:54:53 -0400
>Subject: PRG Update - September 22, 2004

<snip>

>The CBS "60 Minutes II" Documents Fiasco

>...Thank heaven for Shepard Smith.

Shep Smith initially found fame starring in the popular series
Thunderbirds, and is my candidate for TV personality most likely
to be an extra-terrestrial. The *V* kind... reptilian for sure.

>NASA Genesis Mission

>At times the synchronicity, metaphors and timing that occur in
>this world can overwhelm. Consider the fate of the returned
>Genesis capsule. From the moment of its inception in 1958 NASA
>has been a primary victim of the extraterrestrial-related
>phenomena truth embargo. The agency designated to explore space
>on behalf of the American people would not, could not publicly
>acknowledged any evidence it might encounter pointing toward
>sentient extraterrestrial beings, living or dead. The stress
>this has caused within the agency can only be imagined.

>After so many years and many spectacular failures how odd to
>watch the centerpiece of the latest malfunction - a shiny
>saucer-like craft - wobble to the earth at 200 mph and embed
>itself in the sand. Turn the photo on its side and you have
>Roswell. Free NASA.

I was struck by the Genesis re-entry video as well. It was most
peculiar to see this from the beginning... from a flapping bird
or flickering light to an otherworldly daylight disc to an
unseemly *George of the Jungle* landing. Sad, but also
interesting in that it was a most unusual vehicle, and the video
makes a good correlative study between IFO and UFO video.

Apparently too, the collection discs were not all compromised,
so the project deserves high praise for over-engineering the
probe, if not perfecting the tech of explosive bolts.

Like the Mars rovers and orbiters, we humans do things right on
occasion.


Bravo!

Kyle








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   Sep > Sep 23

                  Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Rutkowski

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:39:33 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:14:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Rutkowski


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:18:32 -0700
>Subject: Re: Close Encounter In Alaska

>>I did not get the impression he was making this up or that he
>>was delusional. There was some difficulty in talking with him
>>because he was on a radiophone with some voice echo and lag.

>>I believe the place is technically called Bettles Field, AK,
>>since it's just some outlying houses surrounding the airfield,
>>as far as I was able to tell.

>I found the place and it checks out on Airnav.com. For now, its
>highlighted on this map of Alaska - Yukon that I just put up:

>http://www.larryhatch.net/AKYUK.html

>Look for the red dot between two green arrows. Remote is an
>understatement. Please advise of any factual errors in the brief
>text on that page.

None that I could see.

>Now I'm going to browse up what there may be known about
>Bettles, AK .. whether there is anything aside from remoteness
>that could have attracted a UFO.

I think remoteness might be good enough.

>What's a 24 hour airfield and weather station doing there for





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             Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:53:01 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:16:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:31:20 -0400
>Subject: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>From: Mike Christman <mschristman.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:21:19 +0200
>>Subject: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>Cosmic Curiosity: Naval History Magazine Reports on August, 1952
>>Incident

>Anyone with access to the Blue Book file could look to see
>if there is a file on it.

>In 1977 I filed a FOIPA request with the Navy for any and all UFO
>reports in their files. I based my request upon a report found
>in the FBI file, a Navy report from Kodiak, Alaska in Feb 1950
>I think it was. I received a response that all the Navy could find
>was the photo analysis of the Tremonton and Gt. Falls Movies.
>(That analysis had been done in 1952 at the Navy
>Photo Interpretation Center... NPIC). Perhaps the Navy
>intentionally "lost" UFO reports?

Several years ago when I tried to use FOIA to get UFO reports
from the Navy, I was constantly told they didn't have  any.

I sent them a copy of that TOP SECRET Report jointly written by
USAF and The Navy back in the 1940s. I was told it was
interesting, but they still didn't have any files.

It reminds me of the FBI denying my request for my files ,
saying they had none. I did have a response from the CIA saying
all they had was a negative name check request about me from the
FBI. There was a file number . I asked the FBI to review their
files again sending along the CIA item. They did and said they
found a file, but it was classified (I knew they had done my
security clearances years before). I asked for the security
classification and the size of the file. The FBI said they were
both classified.

Reminds me of the CIA claiming they had no info about the 4
briefings about National Security given Ike by DCI W.B. Smith
after the election of Nov. 4, 1952, and before Jan. 9.1953. I
gave them the dates and times of 2. They could find nothing,
even on appeal. Lying is the easy way out even though the info
about the meetings came from a memo to President Truman from
Smith.

Stan Friedman









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                         Re: New Orb Images - Shell

From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:54:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:04:56 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Shell


>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:16:36 +1000
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:39:59 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images


>Lets play out a small court room scenario. I am the accused. I
>claim that the photo on Dr. Bruce Maccabee's web site at:

>http://brumac.8k.com/orb3.html

>You are employed by the prosecution to examine this photo. If it
>is found that I am wrong about this photo, then I am guilty and
>given 10 years for fraud. If the Jury finds my claim true, then
>I am entitled to compensation.

No expert witness testifying in court would state a conclusion
without having access to the original material.If shot on film I
would require the original negative.  If shot on digital I would
require the original file as generated by the camera.


Bob Shell









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                         Re: New Orb Images - Shell

From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:56:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:11:22 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Shell


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:39:05 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:06:58 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>I share your position that there are indeed photos that defy easy
>identification, but it is at best premature to count orb images
>among them.

Beautifully stated!

Yes, there are "mysterious" photographs which turn up now and
then. But the so-called orb images are certainly not among them,
and are not even slightly mysterious.

I find it unfortunate that more people with real knowledge of
optics are not involved in the study of anomalous photographs,
but the optical scientists I know (with the exception of Bruce)
all think of it as laughable and a total waste of time.

The orbs, just like the "rods", are optical artifacts of imaging
systems.

Orbs will show up more and more with the proliferation of
digital cameras with their much shorter focal length lenses and
greater depth of field.

About the only thing you can conclude about people who get orbs
in their photos all the time is that their housecleaning skills
are somewhat lacking!


Bob Shell













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                        Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:00:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:19:54 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:30:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:32:20 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>I noticed something in re-examining the orb shot in this thread,
>prompted by a private e-mail.

>The red ball is not a sphere at all. It is a tilted hexagon. It
>is apparent when the image is darkened slightly or when the
>color is shifted a little.

>This hexagonal shape is a direct reflection of sunlight off the
>film plane and shining back through the iris of the camera and
>reflecting off the back of the lens elements and back onto the
>film plane.

>This is a common effect, displayed clearly in my previous
>prismatic flare image.

>The red ball is a hexagonal iris silhouette. The only fact
>needed to cement this conclusion is the make and model of the
>camera used.

The type of camera is given at the web site.








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                  Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Reason

From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:07:46 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:23:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - Reason


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:41:17 +0100
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>The abduction narratives fail to make much sense as descriptions
>of physical events, even if we accept the idea of aliens in
>spcecraft.

In what way do they "fail to make sense as descriptions of
physical events?" I could equally argue that they fail to make
sense as psychological events.

>There is no physical evidence which could not have a
>mundane explanation. The abductees never provide any significant
>facts which are not already known. In other words, their stories
>do not contain any information in the sense that explorers
>returning from newly discovered lands provided new and often
>surprising information (which could eventually be verified).

I'll leave it to others to determine if this is true, but
assuming it is, you've simply repeated what I had already said -
which is that the ETH (at least as applied to UFO abductions)
is unfalsifiable. But I wasn't asking why the ETH shouldn't be
accepted, I was asking why it should be rejected a priori.

>Which of the phenomena associated with abduction reports cannot
>be accounted for in terms of known psychological processes? If we
>could have the relevant details we might be able to conduct a
>more constructive and informative debate.

The most obvious features are the restricted narrative set and
the coherent narrative structure.  These are also among the
problematic features of NDEs (which as I'm sure you know, often
appear very similar to UFO abductions).  The restricted
narrative set is what distinguishes UFO abduction narratives
from, say, stories about being abducted by pirates. The
narrative coherence is what distinguishes abduction narratives
from, say, dreams.

I've seen various hypotheses put forward to account for these,
but direct evidence for any of them is usually lacking. For
example, Elaine Showalter has argued that narrative coherence is
an artifact arising from the way narratives are transmitted
within a culture - but the arguments put forward to support this
are themselves little more than narrative construction. They
tend to depend on the notion of "cognitive constructivism",
which is itself scientifically highly dubious.

>The idea of aliens abducting people is rejected, not because it
>seems too far-fetched, but because the of the lack of
>convincing, verifiable evidence.

No, this doesn't make sense. Lack of evidence is a reason not to
accept a hypothesis, it isn't a reason to reject it.  (This
brings to mind all those student research methods papers I had
to knock down a grade because they contained the line "We
therefore have to accept the null hypothesis...")

>Clarke's "law" is often dragged
>into the argument in an attempt to plug this gap, by saying that
>we don't have the evidence because the alien technology is too
>advanced and the aliens can conceal or reveal their activities
>as they see fit, always making sure no one gets hold of
>convincing proof. (Hopkins takes this idea to extremes in
>Witnessed.)

"Dragged"? Kicking and screaming, you mean?

John, this is an example of exactly the kind of spin I was
referring to earlier. Take the spin off this and you have just
(again) repeated what I've already said, which is that the ETH
is unfalsifiable.

>Who said anything about social stigma? It is much better to
>speak plainly, rather than be mealy-mouthed about it. What I
>found objectionable was people expressing the view that the
>story about Katharina Wilson wandering around O'Hare airport was
>an account of weird physical events rather than some kind of
>mental fugue or altered state of consciousness (or whatever the
>technical term is).

Before you start throwing around medical diagnoses, don't you
think it might be a good idea to find out what the relevant
technical term is, and better still, what it actually means?

Yes, it's always a good idea to speak plainly. What's not such a
good idea is to make a crassly insensitive remark about mental
illness, to smother it in rhetorical spin and fake "medical"
jargon, and then try to cover up the resulting mish-mash by
passing it off as "plain speaking".

>No, you've got it wrong. Logically,is for the _believers_ to
>provide the evidence.

I agree. And since you're a believer in this "psychosocial"
hypothesis I keep hearing about, you presumably agree that it's
up to you to provide the evidence for it. Perhaps you'll
understand I feel entitled to a little skepticism, when I see
people making sweeping assertions about the explanatory power of
the social sciences without, it seems, making even the most
cursory attempt to familiarize themselves with the relevant
literature, concepts and evidence.

Just how much on perception, neuroscience and psychology have
you actually read? Have you actually read Bruce and Green's
"Visual Perception" (or whatever the latest incarnation of that
book is called, I haven't taught for years). Do you know
anything, anything at all, about the controversy in perception
research between the Gibsonian and cognitive/constructivist
aproaches? Do you have any idea how much of what passes as
"psychology" in UFOlogical circles is actually half-baked pop-
psychology and recycled psychoanalytic gobbledygook? Have you
even heard of Bayesian analysis?

If the answer to any if these questions is yes, I'm interested -
we'll talk again.

Cathy

[Catherine Reason]








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                          Re: New Orb Images - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:17:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:26:56 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - King


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:31:16 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:02:02 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>I should point out that if this were like the typical photo that
>people send me showing some image of a presumed object that they
>didn't see at the time, i.e., if there was no visual sighting
>(other than when looking through the camera) I would put this
>down to some sort of odd flare or light leak. At my web site you
>can read the argument over the flare hypothesis between me and
>others including Jeff Sainio during the investigation.

>Incidently, the best URL to use is:

>http://brumac.8k.com/ORedSphere/OregonRedSphere.html


Dr. Maccabee,

The camera taking the red orb was set on automatic exposure
according to your article. The camera was set to find the best
balance of light and dark to make what would be the best
picture. The sun is shining on the camera lens. This is evident
because on automatic exposure, the camera would open up its iris
in darkness, to allow more light in, and would close down if the
light was too intense. Since the lower foreground of the image
is so dark that the front edge of the garden is not even
visible, the camera was obviously reacting to a bright source of
light by closing down the aperture. This is also evident in the
depth of field in the photo. The aperture was obviously closed
down sufficiently to allow broad depth of field. If the aperture
was closed down, it is due to a very bright source of light and
the camera could not have been in shade. In the photo, this
source is obvious, since the center of the photo is of average
exposure, and the upper left of the image is awash in sunlight.
The orb is actually very much an overexposure, as it is the
brightest area of the entire lower half of the image.

As for the dazzle argument, I am of course in no position to
state what the man did or did not see. I certainly do not
proclaim that he was mistaken. But based on this photograph
alone, I would have to state that the evidence for lens flare is
very convincing.

Notably absent from your analysis is the date and time of the
photo. This would place the sun absolutely, and further point to
an answer.

It would also be interesting to see if the man has tried to take
more similar photos.

While you say that there is no evidence that the sun was shining
on the lens, I would counter by saying that the lens flare is
evidence. You for some reason dismiss the only other anomaly in
the photo as a "distortion". I say it is a distortion also, of
incident light...just like the larger flare which lies in
perfect alignment with both the other distortion and the
presumed sun location based on the house shadow in the photo.

Why do you dismiss the blue-green distortion while asserting an
anomalous origin for the red one? Witness testimony alone? He
didn't report seeing the other distortion. Does this mean it
wasn't really there? Does this render the other distortion of no
probative value?

I can go no further with this subject, as I am satisfied that
the image is of a rather typical lens flare. The evidence in
your article supports this, although you choose to interpret
differently.

What the man saw in his yard I cannot say. What he photographed
I can comfortably say is a lens flare exacerbated by auto
exposure, bright sun, a closed iris diaphragm, and a backlit
subject area. In the absence of the witness testimony, it is
obvious. So we know what the camera saw. The question remaining
is what did the witness see?


Regards,

Kyle







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                       Re: Hopkins' Techniques - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:25:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:29:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Techniques - King


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:20:35 -0400
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Techniques [was: Magonia - The Truth Is There]

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:12:20 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:35:36 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>><snip>

>As far as I know, Bud doesn't really get new clients (and I'm
>not sure that's the correct term) directly.They are refered to
>him by other researchers, often after they've been contacted by
>someone who is already claiming to have had some sort of
>experience that led them to contact Abduction or UFO
>researchers.  I think it's highly unlikely that Bud (or Mack or
>Jacobs) are likely to be the first to mention the concept of
>alien abduction to those referred to them, which tends to
>guarantee the direction that hypnosis sessions are likely to
>take.

>Just a couple of thoughts.


Hi Steve,

Well said. Budd can only play the hand that's dealt to him.

If he's a fraud, I've seen no evidence of it.


Kyle







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             Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:12:02 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:31:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:07:26 EDT
>Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:58:02 -0400
>Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

>>From: Mike Christman <mschristman.nul
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:21:19 +0200
>>Subject: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>Cosmic Curiosity: Naval History Magazine Reports on August, 1952
>>Incident

<snip>

>>Half a century ago, three Navy aviators saw something high above
>>their Greenland base that baffled them.

>>It was August 1952. I was officer in charge of a detachment of
>>three Navy patrol planes operating out of the new US air base at
>>Thule, in northwest Greenland, some 80 miles from the North
>>Pole. The primary mission assigned our four engine, World War II
>>Privateers was "ice reconnaissance." That meant flying out over
>>the Kennedy Channel, Smith Sound, Baffin Bay, and the Davis
>>Strait and plotting the location of the pack ice and large
>>bergs. That data was relayed to the ships that each summer re-
>>supplied the chain of arctic radar stations known as the DEW
>>(distant early warning) line.

>The DEW Line had not even been thought of yet in "August 1952"
>and certainly did not even exist then nor had "each summer"
>supply ships coming to it!

Brad and List,

The "DEW Line" per se did not exist in August 1952 but the Thule
base, where this incident was supposed to take place, certainly
did. According to the following website, it was secretly
constructed in 1951 as part of the northern front line of
defense against Soviet attack. In essence it was one of the
first stations of the Dew Line before the Dew Line itself was
created and given a name.

The confusion by the author 50 years after the fact is
understandable. It strikes me as a minor detail that shouldn't
be used to dismiss the overall account.

David Rudiak

----------------

http://www.whoi.edu/beaufortgyre/history/history_dew.html


US Military Buildup of Thule and DEW Line (1950s-1960s)

With the advent of the Cold War, the US military began to look
at the northern regions as the front line of defense against the
USSR. During the war, the Allies had established weather
stations in Greenland and Canada, but now the US wanted an air
base that could be used to intercept bomber attacks from
northeast approaches to America, and as a refueling point for
long range bombers potentially directed at the Soviet Union.
Midway between Moscow and New York, Thule, Greenland was
selected as the site...

The Thule Air Base was constructed in total secrecy by the US
military under the code name 'Blue Jay' in 1951. An armada of
120 shipments, 12,000 men, and 300,000 tons of cargo arrived in
North Star Bay in July 1951, and construction immediately began.
Living on board the ships and working around the clock, most of
the airfield and base were built in only 60 days. Buildings were
constructed with refrigerator-like Clements panels, and propped
on pilings to prevent melting into the permafrost. During its
peak, it housed approximately 10,000 personnel. Now, less than
1,000 men and women are stationed there.

Besides supporting military objectives, Thule Air Base has also
been used as the staging point for scientific ventures...

In addition to the Thule Air Base, the 1950s saw the
establishment of the Distant Early Warning (DEW) line of 63
radar and communication stations. Extending 3000 miles from
Alaska to Baffin Island, roughly along the 69th parallel, the
radar stations provided overlapping coverage for the detection
of attack by bombers or missiles from the north. Construction
began in December 1954 and work was completed in July 1957...








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                        Re: Hopkins' Technique - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:13:12 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:33:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Hall


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:48:13 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique [was: Magonia - The Truth Is There] - McGonagle

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:28:29 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

<snip>

>Don, are you saying that Hopkins was forced to conduct the
>interview in this way by NOVA or are you saying that the clip
>was shown out of context?

>If the latter, I would be interested to know what context would
>justify this apparently unprofessional example of his technique?


Joe,

Please pay attention to my previous post about Budd's
techniques. Also, know that the NOVA program was one of the most
outrageous modern examples of false, biased, and distorted
reporting. And, again, take another look at it because Budd did
not do what you attribute to him.


 - Dick








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             Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:02:21 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:37:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:53:01 -0300
>Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:31:20 -0400
>>Subject: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>>From: Mike Christman <mschristman.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:21:19 +0200
>>>Subject: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>>Cosmic Curiosity: Naval History Magazine Reports on August, 1952
>>>Incident

>>Anyone with access to the Blue Book file could look to see
>>if there is a file on it.

>>In 1977 I filed a FOIPA request with the Navy for any and all UFO
>>reports in their files. I based my request upon a report found
>>in the FBI file, a Navy report from Kodiak, Alaska in Feb 1950
>>I think it was. I received a response that all the Navy could find
>>was the photo analysis of the Tremonton and Gt. Falls Movies.
>>(That analysis had been done in 1952 at the Navy
>>Photo Interpretation Center... NPIC). Perhaps the Navy
>>intentionally "lost" UFO reports?

>Several years ago when I tried to use FOIA to get UFO reports
>from the Navy, I was constantly told they didn't have  any.

>I sent them a copy of that TOP SECRET Report jointly written by
>USAF and The Navy back in the 1940s. I was told it was
>interesting, but they still didn't have any files.

>It reminds me of the FBI denying my request for my files ,
>saying they had none. I did have a response from the CIA =E0=F8 saying
>all they had was a negative name check request about me from the
>FBI. There was a file number . I asked the FBI to review their
>files again sending along the CIA item. They did and said they
>found a file, but it was classified (I knew they had done my
>security clearances years before). I asked for the security
>classification and the size of the file. The FBI said they were
>both classified.

>Reminds me of the CIA claiming they had no info about the 4
>briefings about National Security given Ike by DCI W.B. Smith
>after the election of Nov. 4, 1952, and before Jan. 9.1953. I
>gave them the dates and times of 2. They could find nothing,
>even on appeal. Lying is the easy way out even though the info
>about the meetings came from a memo to President Truman from
>Smith.


This all sounds familiar :)

In my best Don Adams aka Maxwell Smart voice impersonation I
would say, "The ollld Semantics Acronym Compartmentalization Trick!"

Learned long ago not to ask the Navy, Army or any department about
UFOs. They'd long ago switched, added, bypassed, jury rigged the titles
to files and subjects. That's why I mentioned Ivan T. Sanderson's book
earlier in this thread.

I believe they classified things like UAE - not United Arab
Emirates but Unidentified Aquatic Event - or CSSV - Classified
Sub Surface Vehicle - or some such nonsense like that. You could
get 'Acronym Fever' digging through those files.

The Navy covers land, sea, air, space and who knows what else.
They won't respond to extraterrestrial either. It's all about
semantics. That's the big villain in this piece. Call it one
thing in the press but classify it as another.

The U.S. Navy rules this planet and outer space. Don't let that
slip by any of you for one iota.

Yes of course I know a secret, but if I post it here the enemy
will know.


Best,

Greg








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                   Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:10:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:39:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There - King


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:41:17 +0100
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

<snip>

>No, you've got it wrong. Logically,is for the _believers_ to
>provide the evidence.


Hi John,

Here is the crux of my difficulty in this debate...

On one hand I can only accept a very strong case for extra-
terrestrial contact, and the largest stories are old enough that
lots of noise has clouded the facts, pro and con. I remain at
sea on the big-ticket ET stories.

On the other hand, I cannot simply dismiss out of hand the sheer
volume of reports available on all continents, by all manner of
people. I can dismiss a bunch, but not all.

What I am left with is a collection of small, very unusual
occurrences for which a rational, logical, mundane, prosaic
explanation is elusive.

This forces me to say that I am not convinced that aliens are
visiting earth, but that I am also unable to state logically
that it is not happening.

Logic tells me that we do not know all there is to know, and
that our truths are revised daily as new information becomes
available. I cannot therefore limit what can be known...that
would be illogical. Logically, anything is possible and it is
impossible to prove otherwise. It is he who says that something
is impossible that has the burden of proof.

I agree that if someone states that 27 races of ETs are vying
for control of earth's women, I'll burden him with providing
evidence. There's a lot of that.

But I don't agree that the volume of unexplained reports is not
evidence of something we don't understand. That leaves the door
open logically to any answer, since it is unknown.

So when someone proposes an ET hypothesis to explain a report,
and there is no available logical explanation, the burden shifts
to the skeptic, to refute the hypothesis.

I too would be convinced if a disc crashed on the White House
lawn. Until then, I'm content to watch and argue and keep an
open mind... in my own unique idiom(sic).


Regards,

Kyle







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                      Re: Hopkins' Technique - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:07:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:42:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Lehmberg


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:53:06 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique [was: Magonia - The Truth Is There] - McGonagle

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 07:38:42 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

<snip>

>Pardon me for my stupidity, I am sure that you were making a
>point somewhere in your post, but I was unable to recognise it.
>Please can you put it into terms that are readily understood?


...Easier just to pardon you, Mr. McGonagle, as you requested.

You are so pardoned.


alienview.nul
 www.AlienView.net









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                 Re: SPI Business 22nd September 2004 - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:22:45 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:43:45 -0400
Subject: Re: SPI Business 22nd September 2004 - Hall


>From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul
>To: <ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:04:36 +0100
>Subject: SPI Business 22nd September 2004

>From: Malcolm Robinson <malckyspi.nul
>Date: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 2:58 PM
>Subject: SPI Business 22nd September 2004

>Hi All,

>Some current updates:

>SPI Lecture This Saturday

>Do remember that Brenda Butler is not now our guest speaker this
>saturday, we have secured the service of two wonderful chaps,
>Chris Robinson on his talent as someone who can predict the
>future with ease !! And Dr Melvyn Willin on ghostly music,
>spooky. So do please show your support to SPI once more this
>Saturday.

>Friends Of SPI

>For those of you who have not yet signed up as a Friend Of SPI,
>forms will be available on Saturday, or why not download one
>from our web site at www.spiuk.net By becoming a Friend you are
>entitled to a =A31:00 discount off every single SPI event no
>matter what.

<snip>

>I am presenting a lecture on the infamous 'Fife UFO Case' at a
>two day International UFO Conference in Lytham St Annes over the
>weekend of 9th 10th October. Please see me at this Saturday's
>lecture for more details. Sadly I can't stay for the Sunday at
>Lytham as I have to make a quick dash to get back to London as I
>am presenting a second lecture at the Wimbledon Spiritualist
>Church, this time on ghosts and the paranormal (Sunday 10th
>October 7:30pm)

<snip>

>2005 Guest Speakers

>I'm pleased to say that we are building up a fine team of
>speakers for our 2005 London Lecture programme. Also pleased to
>say that we will be giving you true value for money by ensuring
>that each month you will have TWO yes TWO guest speakers instead
>of the more often one speaker which we put on at the moment.

>In closing, this is my 60th day without a cigarette, so I'm
>quite chuffed with that. Generally it's been OK, but there is
>the odd day, but the will power is still there at the moment.

>OK hope to see you all Saturday. My best wishes to
>you all.

>Malcolm Robinson
>Founder Strange Phenomena Investigations
>25th Anniversary Year 1979-2004.
>www.spiuk.net

I'm not clear here about who is putting forth this garbage,
Philip Mantle or Malcolm Robinson. But garbage it is.

  - Dick









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                      Re: Hopkins' Techniques - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:26:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:49:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Techniques - Sandow


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:20:35 -0400
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Techniques [was: Magonia - The Truth Is There]

>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:12:20 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:35:36 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

<snip>

I've had a heavy workload, and haven't had time to see what's
become of this thread. But today, I dipped my toe in, and this
is what I find.

I'd said that two highly competent therapists had watched Budd
work, and had approved what he'd done - while not accepting his
conclusions.

This was in response to silly John Harney, who declared Budd and
other abduction researchers completely unqualified to do what
they do.

Note that I didn't say Budd was perfect, or that everything he
did was right, either in my eyes, or the eyes of the two
observers I mentioned. I only said that all the evidence seemed
to suggest that professional therapists, who'd observed him in
person, thought he was qualified to do what he does.

And now comes this gentleman, who watches Budd for a few moments
on television, and is quite certain he knows that Budd can't be
qualified!

There's no end, it seems, to human folly.

For the record, the show in question was NOVA, the famous
science show on American public television - famous, anyway, in
the US. And before jumping to conclusions about what's shown on
the NOVA abduction episode, someone objective might want to ask
how long Budd was shown with the child, whether the show talked
at all about what Budd did in conversations with the child that
weren't shown, what Budd's relationship was with the child's
parents, and so on.

The brief moment on the show, with Budd and the child, isn't
long enough to prove anything by itself. We'd need to know the
full context of what's shown.

If someone's going to judge things by short little snippets on
TV, I demand the same privilege in my work as a music critic.
I'd love to go to five minutes of a symphony concert, leave, and
then write a review. My life would be so much easier.

And suppose, even with fuller information, we don't like the way
Budd works with children. Does that prove he's incompetent?

No way.

Do qualified professionals always agree with each other? Do
they always approve every detail of each others' work?

Of course not.

I took serious issue with a couple of things Budd did when he
worked on the Witnessed Case, but still I thought that,
overall, he'd done very good work.


Greg Sandow








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                    UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:40:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:58:16 -0400
Subject: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked


Source: The Triangle - A Student Newspaper at
        Drexel University Philadelphia

http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/09/23/SciTech/Ufo-science.Investigations.De
bunked-729532.shtml

09-23-04


UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked
The Iron Skeptic
By Aaron Sakulich


If you're anything like I am, you would probably be overwhelmed
with disgust and outrage at seeing an article about UFOs in the
science and technology section of a newspaper. While on the one
hand the details of "Ufology" don't belong in any reputable
paper, a close look at the interaction between science and the
investigation of UFO claims is very enlightening.

The first sightings of UFOs in America occurred around 1896.
Hundreds of people from all across the country reported seeing
objects that can be best described as "blimp-like." Long cigar-
shaped dirigibles, some with wings or propellers, were reported
hovering above every state in the union. This was before the
experiments of the Wright brothers made air travel famous, and
before the first practical heavier-than-air dirigibles,
zeppelins or blimps had been made anywhere but Germany.

Scientists of the time, although racing to discover the secret
of flight, did not pay much attention to this wave of sightings,
and with good reason: Over time, a huge number of them proved to
be hoaxes, misidentifications of regular phenomena, or ploys to
increase tourism to certain small towns. There were even some
silver-tongued gods of smooth-talking that managed to sucker
thousands of dollars out of people with promises of rides in
aircraft. With the exception of sociology, science really had no
part in this wave.

What it did provide sociologists with was an example of mass
hysteria. The prevailing feeling at the time was that some
backwoods tinkerer would build a working aircraft in some remote
shanty, and then unleash his invention on the world. This is,
interestingly, what happened: two bicycle-makers from Ohio,
Wilbur and Orville Wright, built the first functioning American
airplane.

But as soon as this "lone inventor" theory was firmly implanted
in the minds of the American populace, people began "seeing"
UFOs and occasionally meeting their inventor, who took on the
name Wilson over time. Wilson, like the Jersey Devil, never
existed but is rather a unique slice of American mythology
produced by overactive imaginations. The first wave of "modern"
UFO sightings began in 1947 and would eventually involve
scientists from every field. The first sighting was by a pilot
who spotted a number of lights flying in V-formation over the
Midwest. He reported it, the Air Force went to investigate, and
the modern era of UFOs was launched.

The Air Force played a peculiar role in UFO investigations until
the early 1970s. They were petrified that what people were
reporting were actually Soviet weapons, so they investigated
them with great zeal. As they investigated them, civilians such
as Donald Keyhoe, an ex-marine major, began to take an interest.
With increasing public interest, sightings increased until 1952
when the Pentagon was so swamped with UFO reports that military
communications were disrupted. After the 1952 wave, the Air
Force realized how dangerous UFOs were. Although they had no
proof that they were Soviet superweapons, just the existence of
the UFO problem could be used as a great propaganda tool by the
Russians. Because of this, the Air Force classified all of their
UFO investigations, set about trying to discredit the witness to
such events, and explain away as much as they could. Their hopes
were that interest in UFOs would die down and not give the
Soviets any leverage over the imaginations of the American
people.

The opposite happened. Donald Keyhoe founded the National
Investigation Committee on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP.) He believed
that the Air Force was trying not to prevent mass hysteria that
could be disruptive during times of an actual Soviet attack, but
was trying to hide the fact that UFOs were spaceships from other
planets. NICAP, which had as its first board of directors a very
distinguished group including several army officers and a naval
Admiral, began lobbying for Congressional hearings. The Air
Force was afraid that hearings would make it look incompetent or
stir up public interest and create another "wave" of sightings,
and worked feverishly against them. Project Sign, the original
UFO investigation by the Air Force, became Project Grudge, which
became Project Blue Book, which was little more than a PR move
by the Air Force to assure people it was investigating and
downplay interest.

In the mid-fifties, "contactees" who claimed to have been
contacted by the crews of alien spaceships began to appear. It
is these people who turned investigations of UFOs into a circus
of insanity, and I think it fairly obvious that each and every
one of these people is suffering from a mental disorder of one
sort or another. But even here, scientists have a chance to
learn: A psychologist or sociologist could write a lifetime of
free meal tickets studying the special brand of insanity or
greed in these people.

It was during this period in the late 1950s and early 1960s that
science turned against itself. Previous to the cults that popped
up around the contactees, the prevailing theory in the
scientific community was that UFOs were some sort of as of yet
undocumented natural phenomena: strange and rare weather
patterns, exotic optical tricks being played on the eyes of the
unsuspecting, and so forth. Pretty much everyone agreed that the
UFOs-as-alien-spaceships idea was hogwash.

When the cult of contactees appeared, scientists were disgusted,
and rightly so, but in trying to distance themselves from these
madmen, they completely abandoned a field of research and turned
upon themselves. Ridicule against anyone even suspected of being
interested in UFOs was just as destructive to life and
reputation as being accused of being a communist by Senator
McCarthy. When Dr. James McDonald testified to congress that use
of the Supersonic transport (SST) would decrease the ozone layer
and cause 10,000 new cases of skin cancer in the US each year,
Senator Ted Kennedy attacked him for having shown an interest in
UFOs. He was laughed out of Congress, despite the fact that his
claims about the SST had scientific background, and a short time
later, his career in shambles, he took his life.

The only person to come through this unscathed was J. Allen
Hynek. A well-regarded astrophysicist, he had begun in 1947 to
help the Air Force investigate UFO claims. He was such a
cautious, methodical man that it took him 20 years to change
opinions and declare that the Air Force really wasn't
investigating things properly, and that room for serious
scientific study existed. In the end, Hynek was right. UFOs are
certainly not Soviet superweapons, as sightings have continued
past the demise of Russian communism, not to mention that the
Russians, for a time, thought the UFOs they were spotting were
American superweapons. A large portion of UFO sightings are
surely misidentification of aircraft or weather balloons, or the
erroneous spotting of planets, stars, or other astronautic
phenomena.

A larger portion surely fall under the category of
hallucinations, the products of diseased minds, and hoaxes.
Nonetheless, there are still a large number of cases that go
unsolved and uninvestigated. Scientists are squandering
opportunities to explore the unexplained, possibly discovering
new meteorological phenomena, new chemical or biological
phenomena (once, even swamp gas was not understood) or, at the
very least, a better understanding of the workings and
depravities of the human mind.

No one is better suited to investigating UFOs than scientists,
and, as a whole, no group has ever neglected the duty of their
chosen livelihoods more than scientists have in refusing to
treat such matters with an impartial investigation.

---

Aaron Sakulich is a senior majoring in materials science and
engineering.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 24

                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 01:45:21 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:29:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Ledger


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:48:13 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique [was: Magonia - The Truth Is There] - McGonagle

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:28:29 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:35:36 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

><snip>

>>>Now, I am no Psychologist, but even I can see how suggestive
>>>this is - first of all, the entity is confirmed as an "alien",
>>>then it is implied that it must look like one of a selection of
>>>drawings of aliens. If anyone doubts that this is what took
>>>place on the video, say so and I shall look through my video
>>>collection and try to identify which programme it was and
>>>provide direct quotes from it.

>>>Do List members consider the above to be an example of "highly
>>>professional" interviewing technique? I certainly don't!

>>That was a hatchet job done deliberately by NOVA. After hearing
>>how the director  and editors at NOVA spun the story to convey
>>just wbhat you are referring to, I lost much of my respect for
>>that program and do not trust its opinion anymore. There are
>>others that can describe much better than I what a sham that
>>episode was.

>Don, are you saying that Hopkins was forced to conduct the
interview in this way by NOVA or are you saying that the clip
was shown out of context?

>If the latter, I would be interested to know what context would
justify this apparently unprofessional example of his technique?


Hi Joe,

It was chopped up in post editing. You never have any
control over what the director and editor will do during that
phase of production. And you don't get to see the finished
product, usually until it airs, and there is no changing it at
that point.

What you saw on the screen, the 10-12 minutes or so, is just a
fraction of the time that was shot. Probably a couple of hours
or so, if not more. The crew could have shot 6 or 8 hours of
video if my own experiences are an example. In Budd Hopkins' case
they abbreviated a painstaking interview and tried to compress
that into a few minutes. It was out of context.

It is a painstaking process to shoot a piece but the director
had a responsibility to try and present this in a manner that
preserved the events as they took place, but chose instead to do
a hatchet job and use the edit to ridicule the interview.

Best,

Don Ledger


[Readers might care to use the Google search facility at
 the UFO UpDates Archive, keying the word NOVA. The posts
 on this thread go back to 1997 --ebk]







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 24

                  'Kidnapped By UFOs?' NOVA 1997 Transcript

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:44:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:44:46 -0400
Subject: 'Kidnapped By UFOs?' NOVA 1997 Transcript





Posted For Educational Purposes Only]

Source: NOVA OnLine

http://www-c.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2306tufos.html

http://www-c.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/


NOVA #2306T: Kidnapped by UFOs?
REPACK

Broadcast Transcript
PBS Airdate: April 1, 1997

ANNOUNCER: Tonight, on NOVA --

BUDD HOPKINS: Have you seen him?

CHILD: Yeah.

BUDD HOPKINS: Where do you see him?

CHILD: Outside.

ANNOUNCER: Alien abductions.

ABDUCTION SUPPORT GROUP MEMBER: I'd be floated outside and then,
in a beam of light, lifted up in to a ship.

ABDUCTION SUPPORT GROUP MEMBER: My legs were being spread apart.

ABDUCTION SUPPORT GROUP MEMBER: You can't breathe. You can't
move.

BUDD HOPKINS: You're dealing with a phenomenon that has an
absolute core of reality.

ANNOUNCER: But how real is it?

CARL SAGAN: Whether what's going on is in outer space or inner
space, that's the question.

ANNOUNCER: "Kidnapped by UFOs?"

NOVA is funded by Prudential.

Prudential. Insurance, health care, real estate, and financial
services. For more than a century, bringing strength and
stability to America's families.

And by Merck. Merck. Pharmaceutical research. Dedicated to
preventing disease and improving health. Merck. Committed to
bringing out the best in medicine.

The Corporation for Public Broadcasting. And viewers like you.

JOE MORTON: In the early morning hours of September 19, 1961,
Betty and Barney Hill were traveling a deserted New Hampshire
highway, when an event occurred that would forever change the
course of their lives.

BETTY HILL: It was a beautiful night. The moon was very bright,
and we were calm and relaxed, and the radio was playing, when I
saw the strange light in the sky. It came out over the highway
and stopped directly in front of us.

JOE MORTON: What Betty thought she saw was a flying saucer.

BETTY HILL: And at this point, Barney got out with the
binoculars in an attempt to identify the craft. And as he looked
up, he could see a row of men standing in the windows, looking
down at him. The craft began to descend, and he had the feeling
they were trying to abduct him.

JOE MORTON: At first, Betty and Barney Hill recalled only
shadowy fragments of what happened that night. But much later,
under hypnosis, their memories came into sharper focus.

BARNEY HILL: The leader is telling me something. I can see it in
his face.

JOE MORTON: These tapes were recorded during hypnosis with the
late Barney Hill.

BARNEY HILL: Run! God, give me strength! I've got to get away!
Oh! Oh!

JOE MORTON: According to the Hills' extraordinary tale, they
were forced to board a flying saucer by creatures from outer
space.

BETTY HILL: As far as we know, we are probably, at least in
modern-day life, the first ones to have face-to-face contact
with astronauts from another solar system.

JOE MORTON: Betty and Barney may; have been the first, but are
certainly not the last to report an alien abduction. Since that
night on a lonely highway thirty years ago, thousands have come
forward, charging that they, too, are the victims of UFO
kidnapping. And a recent poll suggests that millions of
Americans believe them, including author Budd Hopkins.

BUDD HOPKINS: In 1966, when the Betty and Barney Hill case
became public, we found out that they're dealing with us.
They're taking human beings and doing some kinds of tests.
Practically all the major themes that have emerged later on in
our investigations replicate elements that turned up in that
very first case.

JOHN: They removed my eye completely. They allowed it to hang
off on the right side of my face like this, and there's this
probe that they had that came from the ceiling. And they
inserted the probe just --

JOE MORTON: Budd Hopkins conducts support groups for people who
believe they have been abducted. Here, they come together to
share their stories.

JOHN: I was taken to some underwater facility. This thing is a
huge dome, underwater dome. It's like a bubble. There's no
girders, no beams, nothing holding this up. It's just this huge
bubble. You could probably fit ten football fields into this
thing.

JOE MORTON: Hopkins has devoted much of the last two decades to
finding and writing books about cases of alien kidnapping.

BUDD HOPKINS: I would assume the high moment we talked about was
when you were a little child.

SHERRY: Something other-worldly had happened to me. I mean, it
was -- I was five years old, and I was lying in bed. And you
know, it was nice and quiet, and then all of a sudden, what I
remember is this incredible -- I can't think of any of the words
to describe it except to say it was a light show. It was more
like a laser show. I mean, it's just the most incredible
patterns and colors that -- I mean, I see them in my mind, but I
have no words for them.

BUDD HOPKINS: You started to say how your thing, Sherry, when
you were a kid, how you felt the outsider, different.

JOE MORTON: Although Budd Hopkins has no formal psychological
training, he provides therapeutic services for dozens of
so-called "abductees" each year. His New York loft, once
exclusively a studio for his successful career as an artist, is
increasingly overrun with calls, letters, and drawings from
people describing their own strange encounters with creatures
like these.

BUDD HOPKINS: These are very small, frail-looking figures. And
all of the power or energy or force, or whatever they seem to
have, really resides in the eyes. Because the body is something
that has no tensile strength at all. But the eyes are very
powerful and controlling.

DENISE: The most striking physical feature are the eyes, I
think. They're frightening, they're black, almost liquidy.
That's the first thing that I've noticed. And then, the skin's
white. They look very frail to me, like you could hurt them if
you were able to, but you're not able to.

BUDD HOPKINS: Essentially, what always happens -- virtually
always happens -- the person is paralyzed. They cannot move.
They can be in bed at night.

JOHN: I was taken from my bedroom one night. And I was being
carried out of the house. And these beings have the ability to
literally walk through walls, doors, solid objects.

BUDD HOPKINS: They are approached by small figures. This is the
most terrifying moment in the whole experience for them.

DIANE: Seeing a figure standing at the foot of the bed, and then
feeling like my skin was moving, as if in a G-force, back.

BUDD HOPKINS: They're usually lifted up through some kind of
light beam. I know this sounds absolutely peculiar, but that's
what you get, again and again and again.

PETER: I'd be floated outside, and then, in a beam of light,
lifted up into a ship. And the most striking thing, or the
things I remember the most, we what I'd consider the examination
room, where the floor was like a jet black, like an obsidian
black. And then it appeared to be kind of a stainless steel
table, very cold, very metallic.

CARRIE: They probed me anally. They have stuck needles up my
nose. They have stuck needles in my eyes. They have probed my
ears.

JOHN: I remember being subjected to a procedure that involves
taking semen, placed on an operating table, immobilized. I was
induced to have an erection. Mind you, there are no sexual
feelings or any passion connected with this. It's a very cold
procedure.

CARRIE: I suddenly began to feel something moving inside of me,
and then I felt this thing dropping out of me. And I reached
down, and I had caught this thing in my hand. And it was this
fetus of what would seem to be an alien baby, and it had come
out of me.

BUDD HOPKINS: The basic goal seems to be an effort to create a
hybrid species, a mix of alien and human genetic structures, or
whatever one wants to call it. I know this sounds crazy, and
there are all sorts of biological reasons why this seems either
impossible or highly unlikely, and yet we get this again and
again and again.

JOE MORTON: Most abductees initially describe their experiences
as vague or dream-like recollections of a night-time presence.

JOHN: And they took me out of the house.

JOE MORTON: That is, until they undergo hypnosis.

BUDD HOPKINS: Feel my hand on your shoulder. You're with me.
It's OK. Lie down. You're OK, John. Lie down. Close your eyes.
Close your eyes. Lie down.

JOE MORTON: According to Bud Hopkins, hypnosis therapy is often
needed to unlock alien-induced amnesia.

BUDD HOPKINS: Take a deep breath. You're here with me. What just
happened?

JOHN: Someone came in the room.

BUDD HOPKINS: Uh huh.

JOE MORTON: John, a forty-six year old graphic artist, has
undergone more than a dozen hours of this therapy.

BUDD HOPKINS: What's happening, John?

JOHN: He's doing something in my nose. I can't move. He's doing
something in my nose, and I can't move. Oh!

BUDD HOPKINS: What is it?

JOHN: It's that recording thing, that tracking thing that they
have to put in there.

BUDD HOPKINS: Uh huh. Did he tell you that's what it is?

JOE MORTON: John recalls aliens implanting a tracking device in
his nose. But like other physical evidence, it is never
recovered. Instead, the proof offered for abductions is the
stories themselves.

BUDD HOPKINS: As the case material mounted up, and case after
case after case replicated the cases before, and these were
totally believable people from all walks of life. And even down
to tiny details in their descriptions of what happened to them,
these tiny details were replicated again and again. You have to
feel you're dealing with a phenomenon that has an absolute core
of reality about it.

DR. JOHN MACK: There are a number of psychological and
psychiatric studies that have been done of these individuals,
and none of them has shown any consistent personality pattern.
None has shown any consistent psychopathology. A number of the
people have been traumatized by their experiences, but that is as
a result of the experiences.

JOE MORTON: Harvard University psychiatrist John Mack seems an
unlikely proponent of alien abduction.

DR. JOHN MACK: I first got into this field, really without
knowing I was getting into it. I had a psychologist colleague
who asked me, did I want to meet Budd Hopkins, and I said,
"Who's he?" This was the fall of 1989. And she explained that he
was an artist in New York who took seriously the stories of
people who reported being taken by alien beings into spacecraft.
And my reaction to her was that he must be quite mad if he
believes such stories, and he must be dealing with some
contemporary sort of psychosis.

BUDD HOPKINS: So, he came to me, and I began showing him the
material. One of the interesting things that I did was, I handed
him twenty unopened letters that I had not looked at myself, had
not read them, had not opened them, that I had received in this
box of ongoing mail from people who obviously were writing in
because they felt they'd had experiences. And I said, "John, you
open these letters. You read them. You tell me, are these some
-- Is this some sort of range of strange psychological problems
or are these people describing a real experience?" And he called
me the next day to say he was quite astonished by this.

DR. JOHN MACK: In case after case after case, I've been
impressed with the consistency of the story, the sincerity with
which people tell their stories, the power of the feelings
connected with this, the self-doubt. All of appropriate
responses that these people have.

JOE MORTON: When John Mack threw his reputation and the name of
Harvard behind this strange phenomenon, abduction stories gained
credibility. This caused many scientists to sit up and take
notice. Astronomer Carl Sagan.

CARL SAGAN: I personally have been captured by the notion of
extraterrestrial life, and especially extraterrestrial
intelligence, from childhood. It swept me up. And I've been
involved in sending spacecraft to nearby planets to look for
life, and in the radio search for extraterrestrial intelligence.

JOE MORTON: Carl Sagan has long scanned the cosmos searching for
radio signals from extraterrestrial intelligence. So far, the
search has been unsuccessful. But whether or not there is
intelligent life somewhere, out there in the vastness of the
universe, is a very different question from whether or not
aliens have arrived on planet Earth.

CARL SAGAN: I'm frequently written to, saying how could I search
for extraterrestrial intelligence and disbelieve that we're
being visited? I don't see any contradiction at all. It's a
wonderful prospect, but requires the most severe and rigorous
standards of evidence.

JOE MORTON: Sagan and others charge that the stories from
abductees are not sufficient proof, given a lack of physical
evidence and the scientific implausibility. Physicist Paul
Horowitz.

PAUL HOROWITZ: People think of us scientists as being grouchy
old folks who insist on the right kind of evidence and probably
have our minds all made up. If a rocket ship landed, if an alien
saucer landed in my front yard tomorrow morning, I would be more
delighted than anyone else around. And quite independent of the
fact that I've said that they probably wouldn't do it, I would
think it's terrific that they actually did. The whole problem of
this business is that they haven't done it, that there's no
credible evidence that they ever have. And most of us believe
they never will.

DR. JOHN MACK: It's often said that I'm a believer, and sort of
a gone -- lost my objectivity. And I really object to that,
because this is not about believing anything. I didn't believe
anything when I started, and I don't really believe anything
now. I've come to what I've come to, clinically. In other words,
I worked with people over hundreds and hundreds of hours, and
have done as careful a job as I could to listen, to sift out, to
consider alternative explanations. And none have come forward. No
one has found an alternative explanation in a single abduction
case.

JOE MORTON: But are there really no other explanations for the
reports of alien abduction, as John Mack and Budd Hopkins
insist? As Hopkins embarks on a brand new case, NOVA goes along
to investigate whether or not there might more earthbound
explanations for the stories of extraterrestrial encounters.

BUDD HOPKINS: I'm willing to just start absolutely ground zero
or whatever, and just start an investigation, do the interviews
that I would ordinarily do, so the process can be made available
to other investigators, scientists, mental health people, or
whatever. I have absolutely nothing to hide. I'm going to
Florida in this particular case to look into it because it has
so many really fascinating dimensions, especially the fact that
there are two children involved.

JODY: I am a mother. I do not want to believe that my kids are
being abducted. I'd rather believe that there's something wrong
with my mind than to believe actually my kids are abducted.

JOE MORTON: Jody first began to fear for her son and daughter
three years ago, after she read Hopkins' best-selling book,
Intruders.

JODY: I was in the grocery store, and there was a pile of books
on sale, and Intruders was one of them. So I figured, "Oh, why
not? We'll take it home and read it." I could not believe how
many similarities there were between the book and what happened
in my life. And I always knew that something had happened, and
that there was a presence in my room, and there were these little
men. But I had no way of categorizing it until I read the book.
Hi.

BUDD HOPKINS: Hi, there. How are you?

JODY: Fine. So nice to meet you.

BUDD HOPKINS: Well, nice to meet you.

JODY: I'm so glad you're here. Come on in. Hi, you guys want to
come in and meet Mr. Hopkins?

BUDD HOPKINS: I'm curious what's the first time that you noticed
something coming. I guess it would have been from Ryan.

JODY: I was out with the kids once in the car, and Ryan said,
"You know, Mommy, I saw the shadows again last night."

JOE MORTON: Jody and her husband, Mike, tell Hopkins a tale of
shadows, monsters, and their son's other night-time fears. Next,
Hopkins turns his attention to the children.

BUDD HOPKINS: What I intend to do is to work with the children.
And I will play with them and fool around. I don't want them to
think that this is a big, scary game. I want to see what the
children are saying and what we can learn, especially from the
older boy.

JOE MORTON: Hopkins shows four year old Ryan familiar
characters, like Santa Claus and Batman.

RYAN: A policeman.

BUDD HOPKINS: A policeman.

JOE MORTON: Among them is this drawing, of an alien.

BUDD HOPKINS: Ever seen anything like that before?

JOE MORTON: Hopkins next asks Ryan to make up a story about this
picture.

BUDD HOPKINS: Then, what does he say?

RYAN: He comes upstairs and sees a person sleeping, with his
eyes closed. And he walks them down the stairs.

BUDD HOPKINS: He walks them down the stairs? Uh huh? Why does he
do that? That's a good story. Why does he do that?

RYAN: Then he usually brings them up, but he never stops. Then
he makes them land. And then he woke up and he said, "Hey! What
am I doing down here if I'm supposed to be up there? I bet
someone took me!"

BUDD HOPKINS: He said something very interesting. I'll play
this.

RYAN: I bet someone took me!"

BUDD HOPKINS: "I bet somebody took me." That's right. Saying
something like that, putting the reaction to that particular
picture in the light of somebody taking somebody down some
stairs and up into something, and dropping them, and then
saying, "Somebody took me," it may be a coincidence, of course.
It may not mean anything, but also it may mean, if there is some
abduction events going on in his life, that there's a kind of an
unconscious memory coming through. It's hard to tell.

JOE MORTON: Hopkins also questions toddler, Paula.

PAULA: Yeah. Eyes.

BUDD HOPKINS: Have you ever seen him?

PAULA: Yeah.

BUDD HOPKINS: Yeah? You've seen him?

PAULA: Where do you see him?

PAULA: Outside.

BUDD HOPKINS: Right now, what I want you to do is to feel
yourself relaxing even more deeply.

JOE MORTON: Encouraged by his investigation, Hopkins begins a
lengthy hypnosis session with Jody, to probe her experiences
more deeply.

BUDD HOPKINS: What are your feelings right now?

JODY: I'm just thinking, OK, I don't mind this. This is OK. As
long as it doesn't go further. I --

BUDD HOPKINS: What are you afraid would happen if it went
further? What would that mean?

JODY: I don't know. I'm feeling down one of their operations
again or something.

BUDD HOPKINS: So moving up systematically to your female parts.
Well, why do you think the thighs are clamped?

JODY: I hate to say this. I just feel like they want them open.

BUDD HOPKINS: Um hmm.

JODY: And so they're moved apart. I think I had an exam.

BUDD HOPKINS: Um hmm.

JODY: Oh!

BUDD HOPKINS: Just tell me what you feel. You're here with me.
It's OK.

JODY: They really don't have the right.

BUDD HOPKINS: They don't have the right, do they?

JODY: No.

JOE MORTON: Jody's recollection of this alien sexual encounter
ends her hour-long session.

JODY: Someone tried to hypnotize me just a couple times. And it
didn't work. And I just felt I couldn't remember anything past a
certain point. But I just -- He pushed. He pushed, and then I
felt I remembered. But then, I fought it, because I didn't want
it to be true.

BUDD HOPKINS: I think it's a very, very good case. One of the
interesting things is, there are four different people in this
family, different ages and different situations, each one
talking about experiences which suggest abductions from very
different points of view. The fact that they're a very together
family is very important, because there's nothing that would
suggest hysteria or plotting or lying, or any of those things.

JOE MORTON: To Budd Hopkins, this is compelling evidence.
Children who pause at drawings of aliens, dreams of strange
events that feel real, and images of traumatic sexual assault
remember only under hypnosis. Now, Hopkins is about unearth more
stories of midnight abduction.

BUDD HOPKINS: I'm going to go next door to one of the neighbors
of the family I've been visiting, because I've found that there
seem to be abduction experiences taking place in the life of the
residents of this particular house. And as we often find, when
we look into these cases, they're much more widespread. And
we're going to go over and see --I'm at least going to do an
interview, and see what might surface. Because I suspect this is
an abduction case, too.

JOE MORTON: How solid is the case Budd Hopkins has found here?
If two families in a suburban neighborhood tell similar
abduction tales, is the only possible interpretation that they
are indeed being kidnapped by aliens? Or are there more prosaic,
earthbound explanations for the stories, so sincerely recounted?
Carl Sagan.

CARL SAGAN: Humans have a well-documented capacity for
self-deception. There's something interesting going on here, no
question. This is not trivial and not instantly dismissible. But
whether what's going on is in outer space or inner space, that's
the question.

JOE MORTON: This is not the first time creatures from outer
space have fed our inner fears.

RADIO ACTOR: Ladies and gentlemen, I have a grave announcement
to make. Incredible as it may seem, those strange beings who
landed in the Jersey farmlands tonight are the vanguard of an
invading army from the planet Mars.

JOE MORTON: In 1938, with a world war looming, thousands
confused a cleverly crafted radio drama with a real-life report
of an advancing alien army. In the era of the cold war, even the
government investigated sightings of unidentified flying
objects. They explained away most as hoaxes, aircraft or
celestial bodies. Still, many Americans remained suspicious and
asked if UFOs were visiting our planet, who was flying them?
Hollywood provided a fictitious answer.

ALIEN: We have come to visit you in peace, and with good will.

JOE MORTON: People avidly watched the skies, and some gathered
to celebrate their alien encounters.

WOMAN: I have made telepathic contact for the past eight years
with many space people from many areas of space, both inside and
outside of this solar system.

JOE MORTON: In 1964, this cult hit featured an alien with
telepathic powers, very much like those Barney and Betty Hill
described just days after this broadcast.

BETTY HILL: Well, they had a gray tone to the skin, smaller
nose, and thin slit for a mouth. They had larger eyes than ours.

JOE MORTON: And in the weeks following this television movie of
the Hills' own story, many reported similar abductions. By 1977,
tales of close encounters of the third kind captivated the
nation. In this wildly successful film, big-headed creatures
visited Earth to communicate with humans. In the year following
its release, UFO encounter reports surged.

E.T.: I'll be right here.

JOE MORTON: When the most famous extraterrestrial of all time
phoned home, E.T. earthling contact became a central theme of
sci-fi mythology. And when Budd Hopkins' book, Intruders, was
broadcast as a TV miniseries, abduction reports hit a new high.

ACTRESS MARE WINNINGHAM: She's mine.

JOE MORTON: Intruders told what has now become a familiar story,
a story of humanoid beings with dark, telepathic eyes, of
elaborate reproductive procedures, and of a new race of
human-alien hybrids. For many, this creature from the
blockbuster movie and book, Communion, has become the
prototypical alien. Robert Baker.

ROBERT BAKER: Well, very few people in the country are not
familiar with the face on the cover of Whitley Streiber's
Communion. It's like an urban legend. Everybody has heard it.
We've seen the science fiction movies. We've seen Close
Encounters of the Third Kind. We've seen E.T. and all of these
other movies. So, the result is it's part of our culture now,
the idea of people going outside, looking up, seeing an alien
spaceship, of being lifted up to that spaceship on a blue beam
of light, and then being laid on a platform and examined. These
are cultural themes.

JOE MORTON: Four years after the release of Communion, a member
of Budd Hopkins' group made drawings of his experiences.

JOHN: This guy is about three feet, three and a half feet tall.
There's the large black eyes, the pear-shaped head. And then
these are the little guys. And these guys are blue. Their skin
is very blue. Usually, it's the grays that are involved with us
during the abduction experiences. These guys appear to be
helpers. That wand he's holding is a human cattle prod. It's a
very effective little toy at gaining your cooperation.

JOE MORTON: The script for abductions is widely known. But does
it reflect the reality of peoples' experiences? Or does it fuel
them?

CARL SAGAN: There's two stories. One is, we're being sexually
abducted by beings from other worlds. And the other is that
there is a pervasive common hallucination that at least
thousands of humans share. Now, these are both disquieting
possibilities, and neither alternative makes anybody happy. But,
if you ask me now which is more likely, it is absolutely clear
that people hallucinate. There's no question about that.

JOE MORTON: Could this tendency to hallucinate be a seed for
tales of abduction? Before aliens, other midnight interlopers
vanquished and raped. In medieval days, when goblins and demons
invaded the popular mythology, it was they who stalked the night
chambers of hapless victims.

ROBERT BAKER: During the Middle Ages, many people reported that
they would go to sleep, and they would wake up in the middle of
the night, and there would be a devil, a little devil or demon
sitting on their chest. In many of the nunneries, the nuns would
say that they were raped during the night by this evil demon
that came and sat on their chest and raped them. And they would
say, "That explains my pregnancy," and so on. These little
devils were called incubus, or the incubi.

JOE MORTON: Like these ancient visitations, most contemporary
abduction stories begin in the bedroom, late at night, in the
twilight between wakefulness and sleep.

CHRIS: There is a spotlight shining in the room, with somebody
walking towards me very quickly.

PETER: I woke up in the middle of the night, and there were two
beings, one to the side of my bed and one to the foot of my bed.
And I found myself trying to wake up my wife, trying to scream
or make a noise, and I couldn't. And again, I felt myself
paralyzed.

JOHN: Panic set in. And it's so intense that it takes your
breath away. You can't breathe. You can't move.

CARRIE: I laid there, and after I had opened my eyes to look at
the clock radio, my legs were being spread apart and when that
began to happen, it became much more frightening. I was just
like, "Oh, God."

CHRIS: As I fall into a sleep -- a sleep I call it, but it's a
shift in consciousness -- I feel a weight start on the legs and
move on up to the chest area.

ROBERT BAKER: One of the most fascinating aspects of this young
man who was talking about his alien abduction, he described
having partial paralysis, not being able to move, having all
kinds of strange sensations, and hearing clocks ticking, and the
same things like this. And all of these are classic examples of
what the symptoms that go along with hypnogogia and hypnopompic
dreams and sleep paralysis.

JOE MORTON: For millions of people, paralysis and hypnogogic
hallucinations, frightening and vivid dreams just before sleep,
are common experiences, and usually benign. Unless they are
misinterpreted.

ROBERT BAKER: Unfortunately, there are therapists like Mack and
like Budd Hopkins, and they are offering a haven for the people
that claim they were abducted by aliens, because they are
telling them, "You were a victim, and I'm here to help you." And
the only problem with that is that people getting that kind of
therapeutic help are not being really helped. They are not being
told that it was all a dream, and that it was all imaginary, and
it will probably never happen again. They're only left
vulnerable to the possibility of an additional abduction, rape,
and so on. This is not doing them, therapeutically, any good.

JOE MORTON: In a Canadian laboratory, neuroscientist Michael
Persinger searches for other factors that might make certain
people susceptible to abduction stories.

MICHAEL PERSINGER: These are the individuals who are more
creative. They are individuals who have a problem with thinking
that somehow they're different, or something unusual has
occurred to them. They are usually the musicians, the writers,
the journalists, the creative individual, the creative
scientists. And fundamentally, they're normal, except they have
an unusual creativity that also means suggestibility.

JOE MORTON: In this experiment, a volunteer is blindfolded.
Sensory deprivation enhances suggestibility.

RESEARCHER: Comfortable? Feels OK?

VOLUNTEER: Yes.

RESEARCHER: OK. We're going to start, then.

JOE MORTON: Next, a complicated pattern of electromagnetic waves
bombard the brain's temporal lobes, causing a sense of movement,
motion, and presence.

MICHAEL PERSINGER: The temporal lobes are showing increased
patterns which are typical of apprehension or fear.

VOLUNTEER: I'm feeling a sensation of going counter-clockwise. A
light, or feeling on the left side. The feeling that I felt was
that I was moving to my left.

MICHAEL PERSINGER: A feeling? Can you describe that feeling?

VOLUNTEER: A feeling. It was a heaviness that was pulling me
towards my left side. And it was controlling me.

MICHAEL PERSINGER: OK. The relationship between these
experiences and some types of alien abductions is that a similar
portion of the brain is involved. We know that the person feels
vibrations. They feel leaving their body. They may feel a sense
of presence. They may feel visual sensations and tremendous
meaningfulness, and sometimes fear.

JOE MORTON: Persinger believes that these sensations can occur
spontaneously in some people, and can be mistaken for an alien
presence if the context is right.

MICHAEL PERSINGER: One thing we did some years ago, and it shows
how powerful subtle context is, was we would put normal people
into a chamber, deprive them of sensory information except for a
cross in the upper left-hand corner, and a few sequences from
Gregorian chants. Then, we would listen to free narratives. And
the themes of these narratives were primarily religious. By just
changing the cross to a picture of the Earth and playing a few
bars from the Close Encounters of the Third Kind movie, suddenly
the themes changed to spaceships and alien encounters. We have
looked at individuals who have claimed abduction experiences.
It's actually a tremendous spectrum of experiences that take
place. What makes the experiences often very rigid and formulated
is when they go to a particular therapist who has a particular
idea of what the alien is.

JOHN: Jesus Christ.

JOE MORTON: But the neurological and cultural explanations for
abduction stories do not satisfy Budd Hopkins.

JOHN: I've got to get out of here.

BUDD HOPKINS: One of the issues about, of course, hypnogogic
states and these other theories is that they're usually not
accompanied by an enormous amount of emotion. The issue about
these abduction experiences is, of course, immediately the
enormously powerful and appropriate emotions that go with the
experiences as they're recalled.

JOHN: I don't want to see these things.

JOE MORTON: Hallucinations and dreams can engender real
emotions, and critics say that hypnosis and therapeutic
suggestion can transform these emotions into traumatic abduction
memories. After five hypnosis sessions, John recalls seeing his
son, James, naked on an alien operating table.

BUDD HOPKINS: What's he look like? Does he look like a little
boy? A young boy?

JOHN: He's asleep, but he's got no clothes. What is he doing to
him?

BUDD HOPKINS: You're sure it was, or you just think?

JOHN: It was James.

BUDD HOPKINS: It was James.

JOE MORTON: Psychologist Elizabeth Loftus.

ELIZABETH LOFTUS: If you convince someone falsely that they were
victims, or that they had some horrible experience, and they now
believe in this false experience, they can feel very emotional
about it.

JOHN: It's my boy!

ELIZABETH LOFTUS: And they may cry. They may scream. They may
tremble. They may feel terrible. But it's feeling terrible about
a false memory that they've now adopted for themselves.

JOE MORTON: To investigate just how malleable and unreliable
memory can be, Loftus conducted a well-known experiment, "Lost
in the Shopping Mall." She and her researchers attempted to
implant a memory of a traumatic event that never took place.

ELIZABETH LOFTUS: The latest work that I've been doing involves
trying to get people to believe and remember that when they were
children, they were lost in a shopping mall. They were lost for
an extended period of time, that they were frightened. They were
crying. And they were ultimately rescued by an elderly person
and then brought back together with their family.

RESEARCHER: You actually were lost from your parents for a
little while.

JOE MORTON: As her family confirmed, the subject was not lost.
But the researcher plants the suggestion and prompts her to
remember the scene.

RESEARCHER: Do you remember an older woman might have taken you
to security?

RESEARCH SUBJECT: Unh-unh.

RESEARCHER: OK. Do you ever remember hearing your name on the
P.A. system?

RESEARCH SUBJECT: Yeah. I do remember that.

RESEARCHER: Could it have been this time when you were five?

RESEARCH SUBJECT: It could have been. It could have been.

ELIZABETH LOFTUS: Once a memory has been implanted through
suggestion, it can seem very, very real to the person. A person
can elaborate on it, describe it in greater detail, feel it and
experience with a lot of confidence, even though it's false. In
our shopping mall paradigm, we've gotten people to remember all
kinds of details about the elderly person who supposedly rescued
them.

RESEARCHER: There was an elderly lady who came up to you and
asked you your name. Do you remember anything about her?

RESEARCH SUBJECT: I almost remember her like, wearing a long
skirt and a sweater.

JOE MORTON: One week later, the subject has constructed a
detailed memory of an event that never took place.

RESEARCHER: Do you remember her asking you? The sound of her
voice?

RESEARCH SUBJECT: I do remember her asking me if I was lost, and
then asking my name, and then saying something about taking me
to security.

ELIZABETH LOFTUS: Through suggestion, we're finding that maybe
as many as a quarter of our subjects will develop a complete or
a partial memory of this experience that never really happened
to them.

ROBERT BAKER: Now, you're on a train, taking a trip back in
time. We're going slowly down through the years.

JOE MORTON: According to psychologist Robert Baker, hypnosis
enhances this natural suggestibility.

ROBERT BAKER: Hypnosis is nothing except the turning on of the
human imagination, and that can be turned on best by having
someone relaxed, get the mental relaxed state, and then provide
them with suggestions. If the person getting them to relax is a
respected, charismatic figure, somebody that is looked up to,
then the person will more than likely comply with a request made
by the so-called hypnotist. Concentrate on those muscles and let
them go soft and loose and limp, just like a knife going through
hot butter. If the hypnotist says, "Go back in the past and
remember when you were a soldier in the Civil War," the
individual being hypnotized will make a maximum effort to do
exactly that with his memory. He will rake his memory to see if
he can remember having read The Red Badge of Courage or some
other Civil War novel. And then he will identify with that
character that is suggested to him, and he will do his damndest
to create a credible, believable story.

JOE MORTON: To demonstrate his point, Baker takes his subject
backwards in time.

ROBERT BAKER: You're not in the United States, North America
anymore. You're somewhere else. I want you to open your eyes,
look around, and tell me where you are.

KAREN: I seem to be involved with a team of horses that are
going much too fast. I was kind of enjoying riding so quickly,
but I can see the horses' manes sort of flying back.

ROBERT BAKER: Are you controlling them now?

KAREN: Yeah, I think so.

ROBERT BAKER: Where was this happening?

KAREN: I don't know.

ROBERT BAKER: I want you to focus on it, what's going on.

JOE MORTON: After this session, Baker will debrief his subject,
but for now, she imagines she is back in the days of the Roman
Empire.

ROBERT BAKER: Are you small, a very small little girl, or a big
person, grown up?

KAREN: No, I was a man. A young man.

ROBERT BAKER: A young man? What was that young man's name?
What's your name?

KAREN: It ends in I-U-S. It seems sort of Latinate, like
Aurelius or something I-U-S.

ROBERT BAKER: What kind of clothes were you wearing?

KAREN: A short, leather, sort of tunic-y -- I seem to have long,
high boots, laced up.

BUDD HOPKINS: What are your feelings right now?

JODY: I just know that they're there. I don't even know if I see
them that well.

JOE MORTON: Psychologist Loftus sees the power of suggestion at
work in Budd Hopkins' hypnosis sessions.

BUDD HOPKINS: Let's go back to the very first moment. I want you
to tell me just how your body feels. Your body has its own
memories. And they're almost separate from the memories of your
mind. The body remembers how it feels.

ELIZABETH LOFTUS: One of these obvious things is that he's
pressing her for more details. He's pressing her with "You can
remember more," and "Your body remembers, you can remember
more." And it's an encouragement to elaborate, to imagine. Later
on, he's going to help her interpret these mental products as if
they are actual experiences.

BUDD HOPKINS: So you sit on this thing, and there are three
around you, you say? Then what happens?

JODY: Oh, I don't know why this is coming to me, but they have
to take off my shirt.

BUDD HOPKINS: Um hmm. They take off your shirt. Let's just go
right through this. Your body remembers an experience.

ELIZABETH LOFTUS: There's a belief out there that memories get
stored in our body. But even if the mind doesn't remember, that
the body somehow does. And the expression body memories is
bandied about quite a bit. But in actuality, there is no good
scientific support for the idea that our bodies are remembering
things that our mind does not remember.

JODY: And that's all I can remember.

BUDD HOPKINS: No, you can remember more. You can remember more.
The ones you like and the good guys, let's put over here. And
the ones you don't like, you put over here.

JOE MORTON: Loftus identifies subtle but powerful suggestive
cues in Hopkins' interactions with Jody's children.

BUDD HOPKINS: That man's a bad guy?

RYAN: Yeah.

BUDD HOPKINS: OK.

ELIZABETH LOFTUS: When I watched Budd Hopkins do the tests with
the four year old boy, it was amazing to me, because you could
sort of see a UFO abduction memory in the making.

BUDD HOPKINS: I want you to tell me why they're bad.

RYAN: Yeah.

BUDD HOPKINS: How about him? Why is he bad?

RYAN: Because he doesn't really know anybody.

BUDD HOPKINS: He doesn't know anybody?

RYAN: Yeah. That's why he's so bad.

ELIZABETH LOFTUS: It was a step-by-step process where he started
with "Do you recognize this? Now let's put it in the good pile
or the bad pile," "What is it that this creature did that made
you put it in the bad pile?"

BUDD HOPKINS: Is he a big, tall guy? Is he this big? Is he way
up there? How big is he?

ELIZABETH LOFTUS: So, there is a generation of ideas, and a
generation of a story, and you could just see it. It's the first
few steps down that royal road to the creation of a false memory
of being abducted.

BUDD HOPKINS: You see him where?

PAULA: Outside.

BUDD HOPKINS: Outside? Uh huh.

PAULA: Yeah. At the pool.

BUDD HOPKINS: Um hmm. At the pool?

PAULA: Yeah.

BUDD HOPKINS: Uh huh. Is he a nice guy or a bad guy?

PAULA: Bad guy.

BUDD HOPKINS: Do you like him?

PAULA: Yeah.

BUDD HOPKINS: You do? You said he was a bad guy.

PAULA: Yeah.

BUDD HOPKINS: Do you like bad guys?

PAULA: Yeah.

ELIZABETH LOFTUS: It seems to me that if you do this to a child,
particularly a young child, and that child is living with this
belief, and we don't know what the consequences of those beliefs
and those memories are going to be for that child, it seems
risky. It seems risky.

BUDD HOPKINS: Does it seem to you that your hesitancies in that
area may be connected with UFO experiences?

DENISE: Without a doubt.

BUDD HOPKINS: Without a doubt?

DENISE: Without a doubt.

JOE MORTON: Could suggestive influence also be at work in Budd
Hopkins' support groups? Social psychologist Richard Ofshe
considers this a likely environment for the creation of false
beliefs.

RICHARD OFSHE: Well, what I saw on that tape was someone, first
taking on the role of an authority figure and therapist.

BUDD HOPKINS: Let's say -- Let's just take the issue of
relationships with other people. I mean, everybody in the world
has relationship problems.

JOHN: Up until I was about eighteen years old, I was almost
asexual.

RICHARD OFSHE: Next, people are revealing things about
themselves that they clearly find embarrassing, defects in their
lives, and he's helping them explain these things away as the
product of the aliens coming to see them.

BUDD HOPKINS: The worst was the implantations.

CARRIE: Um hmm. That was the implantations. That was the most
degrading experience.

BUDD HOPKINS: Based on -- degrading. Yeah.

CARRIE: Yeah.

DENISE: I don't remember, you know, that stuff with the
implants, the fetal implants, or them taking something away. And
like I told you before, I think that's my own defenses, because
I don't know if I'd be able to really handle that very well.

RICHARD OFSHE: I thought it was interesting, the way in which
the woman who commented about how she didn't quite have the
memories that somebody else had, because they must be blocked.
Well, it makes it very clear where that's going. The person who
has imagined it thinks that what they've done is access a memory.
So they accept that image as a memory. They now genuinely
believe it's real. And when they offer it to the group and are
rewarded for having found what was expected, it all makes sense.

JOE MORTON: Like Hopkins, John Mack leads regular support
groups. One former member has come forward with an insider's
view of the making of an alien abduction. When Donna Bassett
heard about the Harvard professor, she says she decided to
infiltrate Mack's organization. Bassett sent him a letter
describing a family history of abductions. Mack agreed to meet,
and beforehand, sent a package of articles, which gave Bassett
the impression he believed her story.

DONNA BASSETT: He actually sent me material in advance of the
first meeting, to review. So he had already made up his mind
that I was an abductee, based on a letter without any prior
contact. These documents went into such detail about what was
expected of an abductee, including sound effects, body movement,
descriptions. And you know, had I -- It was impossible not to be
prepared for the meeting.

JOE MORTON: They met at a Cambridge Hotel. Later, at Mack's
house, he taped three hypnosis sessions which Bassetts claims
she faked. Her husband and Mack's assistant were present.

DONNA BASSETT: Oh!

DR. JOHN MACK: That's it. Just be calm. Just -- You're fine.
You're doing just great.

DONNA BASSETT: Here you are in a bedroom, with this strange man
looming over you, and the darkness, and it makes you
uncomfortable, especially since the technique he's using makes
you very aware of your own body.

DR. JOHN MACK: Your body is very sensitive.

DONNA BASSETT: Yes.

DR. JOHN MACK: What is the worst part of the treatment?

DONNA BASSETT: This cold thing.

DR. JOHN MACK: The cold thing? Where do they put it?

DONNA BASSETT: Inside of me.

DR. JOHN MACK: Where? In your belly? In your vagina? Where?

DONNA BASSETT: Yes.

JOE MORTON: To appeal to peace activist Mack, Bassett says she
cooked up a story of aliens trying to save our planet by
bringing together long-time political adversaries.

DONNA BASSETT: It had been the anniversary of the Cuban missile
crisis. I got to the point where I was saying there was this
bald man in the space ship.

DR. JOHN MACK: Can you say anything more about this bald man?
Try and remember. Go inside and tell me what you can. How old
was he, maybe?

DONNA BASSETT: He kept saying, "Well, what language is he
speaking?"

DR. JOHN MACK: Try to tell me who he looks like from Donna.

DONNA BASSETT: He looks like that guy with the shoe at the U.N.

DR. JOHN MACK: Um hmm. Right, right.

DONNA BASSETT: That's what he looks like.

DR. JOHN MACK: OK.

DONNA BASSETT: He looks like Khrushchev. That can't be. That
can't be.

DR. JOHN MACK: Was he Khrushchev?

DONNA BASSETT: I can't -- It's stupid.

DR. JOHN MACK: Drop Donna's thirty-five year old critical mind
for a moment. Did he look like Khrushchev?

DONNA BASSETT: Yes.

DR. JOHN MACK: OK. Was there anyone else?

DONNA BASSETT: There are other people there.

DR. JOHN MACK: Anyone else with responsibility like Khrushchev
there?

DONNA BASSETT: Yes. And he was ecstatic. He was like this just
made his whole millennium.

DR. JOHN MACK: Don't worry about how foolish or crazy or
impossible it seems. Just notice. Who's there?

DONNA BASSETT: She's got -- You're happy, you're not arguing?

DR. JOHN MACK: And who's the other one? What's the other one's
name?

DONNA BASSETT: What's the other one? It's Kennedy. It can't be
Kennedy.

DR. JOHN MACK: Do you see him?

DONNA BASSETT: Yes.

JOE MORTON: Even after the session, Mack pressed for details.

DR. JOHN MACK: And I'd like to know more of who they were. Was
McNamara -- Did you see him?

DONNA BASSETT: McNamara, yes. And Rusk. I thought Rusk was also
there.

DR. JOHN MACK: Well, we certainly needed some kind of
intervention in 1962.

DONNA BASSETT: There was no skepticism. He would believe the
most far-fetched things. Or at least, he seemed to. The only
time he got critical was when I tried to find alternate
explanations for some of these experiences myself.

JOE MORTON: After a year with Mack's group, Bassett gave her
story, unpaid, to Time Magazine.

DR. JOHN MACK: I don't know what really is motivating Donna
Bassett. She's in contrast to virtually everyone else I've
worked with. She set out to make a name for herself as my
nemesis and attacker and critic, and was able to get a damaging
story into Time Magazine. I don't know. I mean, for me -- I
mean, I worked with Donna in good faith and she claims she was
all a hoax. And people I know in the experienced community think
that she did not hoax, that she's an experiencer who never came
to terms with her experience.

RICHARD OFSHE: The ease with which Mack accepts either
deliberate, misleading, or hypnotic fantasies as real is very
frightening for someone who's in a position of authority, for
someone who's in a position of telling people this stuff is
real. There's nothing tentative about that.

DR. JOHN MACK: We're dealing with a phenomenon which violates
our sense of reality, and which operates in this gray area
between the physical world and the subjective or mythic or
other-realm world. We're being asked to prove this by the
methods of the physical sciences alone. But those methods, in my
view, will not yield the -- This will not yield its secrets.

JOE MORTON: In 1994, concerned by mounting scientific criticism
of John Mack and his research, Harvard University launched a
lengthy internal review. In the end, with academic freedom at
issue, the university took no adverse action. Today, John Mack,
Budd Hopkins, and dozens more therapists around the country
conduct abductee support groups and protracted hypnosis
sessions. Hopkins is also at work on a new book, another
installment in the popular culture of UFO kidnapping, perhaps
paving the way for more and more people to come forward, as
Betty and Barney Hill did in the 1960's, with their own shadowy
memories of alien intruders. For many prefer these fantastical
stories to the more prosaic explanations offered by science.

CARL SAGAN: As a scientist, what worries me the most is the
absence of skeptical thinking, not just on the so-called
abductees, but on the part of the therapists. Because I believe
that the method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect.
It's just the best we have. And to abandon it, with its
skeptical protocols, is the pathway to a dark age.

Explore the alien abduction phenomenon with NOVA online. Whether
you're a skeptic or a believer. Connect to pbs.org.

To order this show for $19.95 plus shipping and handling, call 1
(800) 949-8670. And to learn more about how science can solve
the mysteries of our world, ask about our many other NOVA
videos.

NOVA is proud to have received the Carl Sagan Award from the
Council of Scientific Society Presidents, for improving the
public understanding of science.

NOVA is a production of WGBH, Boston.

NOVA is funded by Merck.

Merck. Pharmaceutical research. Dedicated to preventing disease.
Merck. Committed to bringing out the best in medicine.

And by Prudential.

Prudential. Insurance. Health care. Real estate and financial
services. For more than a century, bringing strength and
stability to America's families.

The Corporation for Public Broadcasting. And viewers like you.

This is PBS.

Copyright







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   Sep > Sep 24

                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Chace

From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 03:27:51 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:49:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Chace


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:12:20 +0000
>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:35:36 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Magonia - The Truth Is There

<snip>

>>In the programme, he was interviewing a young child, no
>>more than seven years old. He asked the child "which one of
>>these did the alien look like?" and proceeded to show him a
>>series of drawings of aliens.

>>Now, I am no Psychologist, but even I can see how
>>suggestive this is - first of all, the entity is confirmed as an
>>"alien", then it is implied that it must look like one of a
>>selection of drawings of aliens. If anyone doubts that this is
>>what took place on the video, say so and I shall look
>>through my video collection and try to identify which
>>programme it was and provide direct quotes from it.

<snip>

>I doubt seriously that is what you saw, and suspect your
>memory is playing tricks on you. Having sat in on quite a few
>of Budd's hypnosis sessions, I have never seen him do any
>leading questioning at all. He would never ask `which one the
>alien looked like.' Furthermore, I am aware of the images test
>he gives at times. It contains an array of images such as
>clowns, other familiar types of people, and one (as I recall)
>outline-style alien face. I have seen him use this. The alien
>face is one of something like 10-12 images.

I have to second what Dick Hall says. In the Nova program I seem
to recall Budd used the image test described above. I am not
aware of him ever using a test with a series of drawings of
aliens.

Joe, I think it is likely that you have mis-remembered what the
program showed.

However, it would be helpful if you can find the recording and
provide direct quotes. Then we can resolve the issue of what was
said and the question will be reduced to one of context.
Specifically what was Hopkins trying to achieve with this test
or this question he asked the child?


David W. Chace








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             Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:38:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:56:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:12:02 -0700
>Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:07:26 EDT
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:58:02 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

>>>From: Mike Christman <mschristman.nul
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:21:19 +0200
>>>Subject: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>>Cosmic Curiosity: Naval History Magazine Reports on August, 1952
>>>Incident

><snip>

>>>Half a century ago, three Navy aviators saw something high above
>>>their Greenland base that baffled them.

<snip>

>The confusion by the author 50 years after the fact is
>understandable. It strikes me as a minor detail that shouldn't
>be used to dismiss the overall account.


Though, this convenient "item fixation" is the debate's stock in
trade. In the Army we called it pole-vaulting over tic-turds to
avoid a dangerous mission. I think the concept applies just as
well here.

This is the tactic of an opposition without honor. This is the
mechanism of the easily duplicitous and the device of the
irrelevant authoritarian. It is evidence of a dodgy cant, an
illustration of axe-grinding bias, and at the core of their
shallowly conjectured views, assumptive arguments, and outmoded
positions. Moreover, we, their honorable opposition, would be
called foul immediately if we employed a similar mechanism.
Indeed, there has been a significant amount of petulant whining
as their positions become exposed... their fallacies identified,
and their obfuscations pointed out.

Increasingly, it becomes apparent that their program only works
for people who are _not_ paying attention. Even casual attention
is enough to have their whole CSICOPian Empire accelerate the
rot from within and without, their towers begin to crumble to
the ground... their narrow-focus tyranny erodes as we watch. The
authoritarian, of needs, must give way to the authoritative. Too
many credible people, excluding myself of course, are beginning
to watch.

In as much as the "unjust locker rupure" of this "item fixation"
is the faux-sceptics weapon of choice, it follows we be a little
more vociferous and even strident pointing it out, I think. If
we don't, their even defeated arguments are raised again on the
cusp of the next attention span cycle and recycled as truth for
masses of individual persons otherwise distracted by holding
their lives together.


alienview.nul
  www.AlienView.net










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   Sep > Sep 25

                Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked? -

From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:41:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 06:57:54 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked? -


>From: Terry Groff <Terry.nul>
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:40:25 -0500
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Subject: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked


>http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/09/23/SciTech/Ufo-science.Investigations.D
ebunked-729532.shtml
>By Aaron Sakulich

>If you're anything like I am, you would probably be
>verwhelmed with disgust and outrage at seeing an article about
>UFOs in the science and technology section of a newspaper.

<snip>

>The first sightings of UFOs in America occurred around 1896.
>Hundreds of people from all across the country reported seeing
>objects that can be best described as "blimp-like."

<snip>

>No one is better suited to investigating UFOs than scientists,

Hello List,

Aaron's evident desire to earn points as a "hard-headed"
scientist is marred by a partiality for selective and erroneous
data.

First American UFO report I'd heard of was of 400+ classical
discs photographed by astronomers in 1883. A generation or two
_before_ any fashion or fad for `flying saucers'. [Discount
pelicans, the two astronomers were intending to study Sun's
corona - anything within Earth's atmosphere would presumably
have been so much in-front-of-focus as to be invisible]

http://www.perceptions.couk.com/uef/first.txt

BTW have asked this before - how come 'scientists' can make wild
and erroneous statements and still be commended, but any "non-
acceptable" report is subject to hair-splitting and nit-picking
a priori exclusion?


Cheers

Ray
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perceptions" http://www.perceptions.couk.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~








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   Sep > Sep 25

              Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:38:35 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 07:00:38 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked - Boone


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:40:25 -0500
>Subject: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked


>Source: The Triangle - A Student Newspaper at
>        Drexel University Philadelphia

>http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/09/23/SciTech/Ufo->science.Investigations.
Debunked-729532.shtml

>09-23-04


>UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked
>The Iron Skeptic
>By Aaron Sakulich


>If you're anything like I am, you would probably be overwhelmed
>with disgust and outrage at seeing an article about UFOs in the
>science and technology section of a newspaper. While on the one
>hand the details of "Ufology" don't belong in any reputable
>paper, a close look at the interaction between science and the
>investigation of UFO claims is very enlightening.

<snip>

>In the mid-fifties, "contactees" who claimed to have been
>contacted by the crews of alien spaceships began to appear. It
>is these people who turned investigations of UFOs into a circus
>of insanity, and I think it fairly obvious that each and every
>one of these people is suffering from a mental disorder of one
>sort or another. But even here, scientists have a chance to
>learn: A psychologist or sociologist could write a lifetime of
>free meal tickets studying the special brand of insanity or
>greed in these people.

<snip>

>No one is better suited to investigating UFOs than scientists,
>and, as a whole, no group has ever neglected the duty of their
>chosen livelihoods more than scientists have in refusing to
>treat such matters with an impartial investigation.

Okay, now I'm scared. This is what they're teaching kids to do in
college? Toss around generalizations like frisbees?

It used to turn my stomach when the 'skeptic/debunkers' would
toss around the "You don't agree with me because I use critical
thought" bs. No snot sherlock!

This kid covered some good ground but was it just me who notes
an air and flair for the 'condescending'? Especially from
someone who is still wet behind the ears? Not to say young
people can't contribute greatly to the sciences but the focus on
generalizing abductees is so far from scientific it defeats the
purpose of his espousing 'impartial investigation'.

With that kind of attitude he'll have a great career in politics
or in government contracting.

Reminds me of how the CIA would try to recruit us in College.
They would avoid all the black and hispanic kids and somehow
some way find the most chemically dependent, fascist
knuckleheads on campus.

That was several years before Iran-Contra. It was funny watching
their selectees years later at drug rehab facilities.


Best,

Greg








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   Sep > Sep 25

                        Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:55:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 07:04:28 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee


>From: Amy Hebert <ahebert.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 06:33:52 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:32:20 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>I dug around in my collection of lens flare examples and put a
>few that may interest you in my photo gallery. Lens flares come
>in so many beautiful shapes, sizes and colors.

>http://a-realitycheck.com/v-web/gallery/Examples-Of-Lens-Flare

>Click on the "slideshow" selection in the upper right hand
>corner for easier viewing.

Very nice. Including the photo with several reddish flares/
reflections.

I note that in each case we know that the sun is shining on the
lens because the sun is actually in the picture. I wonder if
"the witness" would claim seeing an object or a glow after
removing the eye from the camera... a dazzle spot or whatever.

I could magine a person being temporarily dazzled _if_ the sun
appears in the picture and the viewing system is optical, but
not if the scene is viewed on a screen as with the digital
cameras.








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   Sep > Sep 25

             Budd Hopkins' UFO Seminar Announcement - October 9

From: The Intruders Foundation <Ifinfo1.nul>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:03:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 07:07:03 -0400
Subject: Budd Hopkins' UFO Seminar Announcement - October 9


Intruders Foundation Seminar Series Announcement

Saturday, October 9, 2004

SETI versus UFology: An Illustrated Lecture by Stanton T.
Friedman

On Saturday, October 9, the Intruders Foundation presents its
opening seminar of the 2004-2005 season at the new ARE Center on
West 30th St. It will feature a presentation by author, nuclear
physicist, and prominent UFO researcher, Stanton Friedman.

Stan Friedman, a resident of Canada, is internationally known as
"The Flying Saucer Physicist."  He received his BS and MS
degrees in physics from the University of Chicago in 1955 and
1956, and for over 14 years worked on the development of a wide
variety of classified advanced nuclear and space systems for
companies such as GE, GM, Westinghouse, McDonnell Douglas, and
Aerojet General. He has lectured internationally on his UFO
research since the 1960s, and in the mid-1970s began an
extensive civilian investigation of the crashed flying saucers
near Roswell, NM in 1947, a fascinating project that is still in
process. Stanton has authored and co-authored books on Majestic
12 and Roswell, respectively, and has spoken at more than 600
colleges and over 100 professional groups throughout the world.
He has also appeared on hundreds of TV and radio programs and
helped produce numerous UFO documentaries.

Concerning the topic of the upcoming seminar, Mr. Friedman
comments,

"Although SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) has
been getting a free ride from the popular press and the
scientific community, a closer examination of its assumptions
(there is no evidence to examine) clearly indicates it is
basically a cult movement with the acronym really standing for
Silly Effort To Investigate. Ufology traditionally gets a very
hard time from the press and the scientific community, but, in
contrast with SETI, has facts and data that lead directly to the
conclusion that some UFOs are alien spacecraft and that there is
a Cosmic Watergate. It is useful to note the contrasting
underlying assumptions of SETI and ufology. Unfortunately, it
appears that SETI proponents are totally unwilling to review the
UFO evidence and are suffering from the Crown of Creation
Syndrome. Our current methods of long distance communication and
travel seem to them to be in the forefront of those of all life
in the galaxy despite the fact that we have only had advanced
flight, electronics, and nuclear technologies for roughly a
century and that there are sun-like stars just down the street
which are a billion years older than the sun. It is time to
realize that the emperors of SETI have no clothes."

The Intruders Foundation is honored to have Stan back with us in
what promises to be a fascinating and informative evening. As
always, Budd Hopkins will provide his input, and audience
participation is encouraged during the question and answer
period. We suggest that those planning to attend make their
reservations early. Please also note the new location of ARE.


REGISTRATION & INFORMATION

The seminar will be held on October 9th at the new meeting rooms
of A.R.E., located on the SECOND FLOOR at 241 W. 30th Street
(between Seventh and Eighth Avenues), New York, NY. The price
for the seminar is $30 for non-members and $20 for members of
IF, seniors and students. Reservations must be made by telephone
at 212-645-5278, and will be filled on a first come, first
served basis. Payment must be made in advance to secure the
reservation. Make checks payable to the Intruders Foundation,
P.O. Box 30233, New York, NY 10011. Only 60 reservations will be
accepted for each seminar.

On-street parking is generally available in the neighborhood.
The seminar will begin at 7:30 PM and end at 10:00 PM. Doors
open at 7:00 PM. There will be a one half-hour intermission,
during which light complimentary refreshments will be served. A
book table will offer books, videotapes and other material for
sale to those interested. For additional information, call IF at
212-645-5278.

Hope to see you there!

----------

The Intruders Foundation Seminar Series is presented in the
interests of open-minded scientific learning and the free
exchange of research, ideas and theories. IF makes no specific
claims or endorsements regarding any materials, views, or
subject matter presented by our guests.

----------

Want to know more about Budd Hopkins and his nonprofit
scientific research organization, as well as past and future IF
events? Please visit our website=E2=80=A6

Intruders Foundation Website:

http://www.intrudersfoundation.org/

----------








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   Sep > Sep 25

                             Greetings From PRI

From: Amy Allen <cursed_burrito1.nul>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:29:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 07:12:50 -0400
Subject: Greetings From PRI


Hello,

Please allow me to introduce myself. My name is Amy Allen and I
am the manager of an online Canadian UFO Group in London,
Ontario.

P.R.I. (Paranormal Research and Investigation) has been
operating for three years now, and we would like to meet other
Canadian groups to keep in contact with current paranormal
events.

We offer 24 hour reporting service to all Canadian residents. It
is with great hope that you come check us out at our msn group
and as well as our homepage.

MSN Group:

http://groups.msn.com/ParanormalResearchandInvestigation/

Homepage:

www.geocities.com/pri_leader


Thanks for your time!

Best regards,

Amy Allen

PRI Canada
London, Ontario








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                        Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:55:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 07:18:54 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:17:45 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:31:16 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee

<snip>

>The camera taking the red orb was set on automatic exposure
>according to your article. The camera was set to find the best >
>balance of light and dark to make what would be the best
>picture. The sun is shining on the camera lens. This is evident
>because on automatic exposure, the camera would open up its iris
>in darkness, to allow more light in, and would close down if the
>ight was too intense. Since the lower foreground of the image
>is so dark that the front edge of the garden is not even
>visible, the camera was obviously reacting to a bright source of
>light by closing down the aperture.

Good reasoning but perhaps based on slightly "faulty" data. I
have compared the image on my web ite...which was from a scanned
photo.... with the 8 x 10 print I was sent by Eric Byler, the
on-the-spot investigator. I can see that the posted version is a
bit darker than it should be at the lower center. In the print
one can see the dirt and twigs that are essentially invisible in
the posted version. Apparently the scanned version increased the
contrast a bit as compared to the print. Anyway, one can see in
the print why it appears so dark relative to other portions of
the pictures: the dark area is dark dirt...no grass or plants,
just dirt and tiny twigs. It is *not" "zero brightness....just
dark. Just to the left of the dark area there is an abrupt edge.
To the left of the "edge" are plants, etc., which show up
brighter. The overall photo looks well exposed The nearby plants
in the circular garden are perhaps slightly underexposed. They
appear to be shaded by the tall bush that is ust beyond the
garden. The distant lawn is brighter and well exposed. The only
slight overexposure is the sky at the top of the photo which
looks whitish... a uniform haze, perhaps.

>This is also evident in the
>depth of field in the photo. The aperture was obviously closed
>down sufficiently to allow broad depth of field. If the aperture
>was closed down, it is due to a very bright source of light and
>the camera could not have been in shade.

>In the photo, this source is obvious, since the center of the
>photo is of average exposure, and the upper left of the image
>is awash in sunlight.

According to the witness and the investigator, based on where
the witness stood, the nearest objects (ground) in the photo
were about 11 ft away. I don't think there is any problem with
the depth of field being large enough to range from 11 ft to
infinity at a typical f number for the scene (say 5.6 to 11).

I don't think that the depth of field can be used as to prove
that the f-number was especially large (for example, f-16 to f-
22, corresponding to a small aperture diameter).


>The orb is actually very much an overexposure, as it is the
>brightest area of the entire lower half of the image.

The orb clearly is not overexposed on the print, although it may
appear so in the scanned images that I posted. In comparing
these with the print I would say that the contrast was enhanced
somewhat. Perhaps I did that intentionally when I posted this
case several years ago... or maybe that was a characteristic of
the scanning.

>As for the dazzle argument, I am of course in no position to
>state what the man did or did not see. I certainly do not
>proclaim that he was mistaken. But based on this photograph
>alone, I would have to state that the evidence for lens flare is
>very convincing.

>Notably absent from your analysis is the date and time of the
>photo. This would place the sun absolutely, and further point to
>an answer.

From the web site, written by the witness:

Occurred: 9/6/2001 10:30 AM;
Location: Florence, OR
Shape:

Circle Bright red fire ball in front yard While taking photos in
my yard a bright red burning ball of fire appeared in my camera
lens. I lowered the camera and no more than 10 feet from me was
a ball approximately two feet in diameter; with an outer glow
that extended it to about 3 feet. The shape was almost a perfect
circle. I did not feel any heat irradiating from the ball, yet
it was burning bright red and emitting heat waves. It remained
about 20 seconds, then started to rise vertically, very slowly
to about 60 feet, where it remained motionless for a short
period. It then made a 90 degree turn and then accelerated out
of site. I have a color photo of this event. I called the police
to report it and they had another report of a fire ball a block
away.

>It would also be interesting to see if the man has tried to take
>more similar photos.

Haven't heard of anything else. He apparently did report to the
police.

>While you say that there is no evidence that the sun was shining
>on the lens, I would counter by saying that the lens flare is
>evidence. You for some reason dismiss the only other anomaly in
>the photo as a "distortion". I say it is a distortion also, of
>incident light...just like the larger flare which lies in
>perfect alignment with both the other distortion and the
>presumed sun location based on the house shadow in the photo.

What would be interesting would be to prove that the sun was
shining on the lens without using the "red ball" image as the
proof.

>Why do you dismiss the blue-green distortion while asserting an
>anomalous origin for the red one? Witness testimony alone? He
>didn't report seeing the other distortion. Does this mean it
>wasn't really there? Does this render the other distortion of no
>probative value?

Suppose the very small greenish "distortion" was a real thing at
the upper left. I can well magine why the witness didn't notice
it: his attention had already been attracted to the larger,
brighter red ball (see his testimony above).

Suppose the greenish "distortion" was not a real thing... it
could be an aberration of the film itself. In the 8 by 10 print
it appears as two separated small regions, each about 0.1 inch
in size, and each seems to lie "on top of " the greenish and
yellowish leaf images. Between the leaf images there is whitish
sky. The overall area that seems to be affected is about 0.2
inches in size.

>I can go no further with this subject, as I am satisfied that
>the image is of a rather typical lens flare. The evidence in
>your article supports this, although you choose to interpret
>differently.

>What the man saw in his yard I cannot say. What he photographed
>can comfortably say is a lens flare exacerbated by auto
>exposure, bright sun, a closed iris diaphragm, and a backlit
>subject area. In the absence of the witness testimony, it is
>obvious. So we know what the camera saw. The question remaining
>is what did the witness see?

If one disconnects the photo image from the visual sighting then
one would have an even more bizarre coincidence of a lens flare
that happens to appear at the same time as a "red ball" and
match what the witness says he saw when *not* looking through
the camera lens.








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             Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 12:25:04 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 07:21:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:38:51 -0500
>Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:12:02 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:07:26 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

>>>>From: Mike Christman <mschristman.nul
>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:21:19 +0200
>>>>Subject: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>>>Cosmic Curiosity: Naval History Magazine Reports on August, 1952
>>>>Incident

<snip>

>>>>Half a century ago, three Navy aviators saw something high above
>>>>their Greenland base that baffled them.

<snip>

>>The confusion by the author 50 years after the fact is
>>understandable. It strikes me as a minor detail that shouldn't
>>be used to dismiss the overall account.

>Though, this convenient "item fixation" is the debate's stock in
>trade. In the Army we called it pole-vaulting over tic-turds to
>avoid a dangerous mission. I think the concept applies just as
>well here.

<snip>

Oh phulllease spare me the melodramatic bilge. I was simply
questioning the "August 1952" _date_ in the portions you so
conveniently omitted.








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                     Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:42:45 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 07:29:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle


Thanks to all those that replied to my post - except for those
that I couldn't understand - and to Errol for posting the NOVA
transcript.

I can confirm that this is the programme which I was referring
to, having been searching for the video until 03:00 this morning.

The only significant difference that I have found is that the
version broadcast in the UK was narrated by Stephen Greif. Here
are the sections which I have the main issues with:

JODY: I am a mother. I do not want to believe that my kids are
being abducted. I'd rather believe that there's something wrong
with my mind than to believe actually my kids are abducted.

STEPHEN GREIF: Jody first began to fear for her son and daughter
three years ago, after she read Hopkins' best-selling book,
Intruders.

Note firstly that the youngest child, Paula, was about two or
two and a half years old at the time that this was filmed
judging by her appearance, and the eldest, Ryan, was four.
Either the scriptwriters have made an error, or she was
concerned for her daughter while she was still in the womb? Ryan
would have been about one year old when she bought the book.

I would expect that the very fact that Jody had read Hopkin's
book would dissuade him from following up this case, since she
had already been exposed in detail to his own interpretation and
methodology. Also, given that Jody said she would "rather
believe that there's something wrong with my mind than to
believe actually my kids are abducted", there was no mention of
her seeking conventional therapy before going to Hopkins.

Jody goes on to say that she had always known "that something
had happened, and that there was a presence in my room, and
there were these little men" - straight away, I am suspicious
that she is superimposing her experiences on her children.
Hopkins either does not suspect this, or appears not to think it
is a matter for concern.

Hopkins asks Jody "I'm curious what's the first time that you
noticed something coming. I guess it would have been from Ryan".
He is already leading the witness, suggesting that Ryan was the
primary victim, contrary to her remarks above. Jody's response
mentions typical childhood fears, eg shadows. Nothing which I
would interpret as of likely alien origin.

Hopkins then goes on to say "I want to see what the children are
saying and what we can learn, especially from the older boy".
Bear in mind, we are talking here about a 4-year old and a 2-
year old. Ryan, the 4-year old is apparently capable of fairly
meaningful communication, but is still extremely suggestible.
Paula, the toddler, is unable to formulate complete sentences,
and is very likely to respond to questions in a completely
random fashion -as can be seen from the transcript at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/sep/m24-016.shtml

Now we come to the part which stuck in my mind the most:

Hopkins shows Ryan a series of pictures - Dick and others were
quite right, there was only one alien image amongst them. Ryan
identifies Santa Claus, Batman, and a policeman before he gets
to the Alien image. When he sees it, he appears not to recognise
it at all and looks at Hopkins as if for a cue.

Hopkins asks "Ever seen anything like that before?" and Ryan
shakes his head indicating that he has not.

In my opinion Hopkins should have discontinued his interview at
this point, moving on to asking Ryan to make up a story
involving Batman as a distraction, but he continues, asking Ryan
to make up a story about the "alien" character which Ryan did
not recognise.

At one point in Ryan's story, he says that "He comes upstairs
and sees a person sleeping, with his eyes closed. And he walks
them down the stairs". Ryan pauses there, again looking at
Hopkins as if for a cue, and Hopkins responds "He walks them
down the stairs? Uh huh? Why does he do that? That's a good
story. Why does he do that?".

Note the inclusion of "That's a good story" - reassuring Ryan
that he is saying what Hopkins wants to hear, encouraging the
storyline.

The next part is a little difficult to explain. The transcript
shows it as follows:

RYAN: Then he usually brings them up, but he never stops. Then
he makes them land. And then he woke up and he said, "Hey! What
am I doing down here if I'm supposed to be up there? I bet
someone took me!" [*there is a transcription error in this
section, see below*]

BUDD HOPKINS: He said something very interesting. I'll play
this.

RYAN: I bet someone took me!"

BUDD HOPKINS: "I bet somebody took me." That's right. Saying
something like that, putting the reaction to that particular
picture in the light of somebody taking somebody down some
stairs and up into something, and dropping them, and then
saying, "Somebody took me," it may be a coincidence, of course.
It may not mean anything, but also it may mean, if there is some
abduction events going on in his life, that there's a kind of an
unconscious memory coming through. It's hard to tell.

I shall clarify this section based on what was on the broadcast:

RYAN: Then he usually brings them up, another step. Then
he makes them land. And then he woke up and he said, "Hey! What
am I doing down here if I'm supposed to be up there? I bet
someone took me!"

BUDD HOPKINS: He said something very interesting. I'll play
this.

[at this point, Hopkins plays a tape recording]

RYAN: I bet someone took me!"

BUDD HOPKINS: "I bet somebody took me." That's right.

[The above was Hopkins _direct_ response to Ryan on_the_tape,
not part of Hopkins' interaction with the camera.]

Note the positive reinforcement provided to Ryan for coming out
with a statement which clearly met with Hopkin's approval.

Next hopkins states "Saying something like that, putting the
reaction to that particular picture in the light of somebody
taking somebody down some stairs and up into something, and
dropping them, and then saying, "Somebody took me," it may be a
coincidence, of course. It may not mean anything, but also it
may mean, if there is some abduction events going on in his
life, that there's a kind of an unconscious memory coming
through. It's hard to tell".

Now, remember that Ryan didn't recognise the alien and Hopkins
chose the picture to make up the story about. Also, quite how
Hopkins interprets "another step" as "into something", I don't
know.

If Ryan had chosen the batman image to make up the story, and
came up with much the same story, no doubt Hopkins would apply
exactly the same comments (less the reference to "that
particular picture"). The story itself was most likely related
to routine domestic activity. There was no mention of aliens,
spacecraft, surgery, etc, just the fact that someone woke up
where they didn't expect to - for those of you who have or have
had children, how many times have they fallen asleep on the
floor, or in the car, and been moved (asleep) to a more
appropriate place?

There are other aspects of his technique in the programme which
I am dubious of, but because of the editing, I can't reasonably
challenge those.

To summarise:

1. I question his decision to become involved with the case at
all, given the full knowledge that Jody had already read
"Intruders" beforehand.

2. I question the merits of interviewing a child of two and
another of 4, particulary without any specialist training in
child psychology.

3. I question Hopkins' decision to persist with the interview of
Ryan after he clearly indicated that he did not recognise the
alien.

4. There is evidence of Hopkins leading the witnesses, albeit
unconsciously.

5. Hopkins appears to be too predisposed to conjecture of an
anomalous explanation.

6. Baker and Loftus are both critical of his technique. Common
sense tells me that they are probably right.


Regards,

Joe








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             Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:47:56 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 07:32:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:38:51 -0500
>Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:12:02 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

<snip>

>>>>Cosmic Curiosity: Naval History Magazine Reports on August, 1952
>>>>Incident

>>The confusion by the author 50 years after the fact is
>>understandable. It strikes me as a minor detail that shouldn't
>>be used to dismiss the overall account.

>Though, this convenient "item fixation" is the debate's stock in
>trade. In the Army we called it pole-vaulting over tic-turds to
>avoid a dangerous mission. I think the concept applies just as
>well here.

>This is the tactic of an opposition without honor. This is the
>mechanism of the easily duplicitous and the device of the
>irrelevant authoritarian. It is evidence of a dodgy cant, an
>illustration of axe-grinding bias, and at the core of their
>shallowly conjectured views, assumptive arguments, and outmoded
>positions. Moreover, we, their honorable opposition, would be
>called foul immediately if we employed a similar mechanism.
>Indeed, there has been a significant amount of petulant whining
>as their positions become exposed... their fallacies identified,
>and their obfuscations pointed out.

>Increasingly, it becomes apparent that their program only works
>for people who are _not_ paying attention. Even casual attention
>is enough to have their whole CSICOPian Empire accelerate the
>rot from within and without, their towers begin to crumble to
>the ground... their narrow-focus tyranny erodes as we watch. The
>authoritarian, of needs, must give way to the authoritative. Too
>many credible people, excluding myself of course, are beginning
>to watch.

Whoa Alfred,

Last I checked, Brad Sparks wasn't a storm trooper for the
"CSICOPian Empire." He pointed out a possibly serious
anachronism in the author's account, but which turned out on
further research to not amount to much.

This is all part of vetting a story for truthfullness. Sometimes
inconsistencies can be red flags that something is wrong;
sometimes not.

In this case, the inconsistency is so minor and understandable
that I don't think it detracts from the believability of the
account at all. For one thing, there are several other incidents
of UFOs nosing around Skyhook and Mogul balloons that we know
about and are very well documented.

For a little bit more about Mogul/Skyhook personnel UFO
sightings see:

http://www.roswellproof.com/Mogul_UFOs.html


David Rudiak








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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:22:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 08:02:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Ryan S. Wood <majesticdocuments.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:30:10 -0700
>Subject: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>Authenticity Meters Added To www.majesticdocuments.com

>BROOMFIELD, CO--Sept 22, 2004 - The incredible story that the
>Majestic documents tell of crashed UFOs, extraterrestrial
>bodies, government control, policies of denial, and manipulation
>pose a profound challenges to our free society. Yet at the core
>is the question of document and content authenticity.

>http://www.majesticdocuments.com/documents/authenticity.php

>Many of the most sensational and intriguing Majestic documents
>are not from official sources, such as the Freedom of
>Information Act (FOIA) or government document libraries.

[etc. etc. ]

Is there a single one of these "sensational and intriguing"
documents that does come from an official source?

If you claim the Cutler-Twining memo does, I would retort that
enough suspicion and distrust has been attached to that since
1987. To say nothing of an official 10-point disclaimer from the
National Archives.

In other words, it is not a case that many "are not from
official sources", but that each & every one is from a NON-
official source (and several are proven forgeries).

Fortunately the great majority of ufologists, including those in
this forum, keep well clear of these laughable bits of paper.
And the more such documents mysteriously 'arrive', the more
entertaining it gets.

Whoever authored the ones I have seen can't even write English.


CDA








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                         Shades Of Close Encounters

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 21:13:16 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 08:05:36 -0400
Subject: Shades Of Close Encounters


The remains of one of the Russian space shuttles in the desert
in Bahrain.

It appears to be one sent to Australia for an exhibit but no one
is sure how it ended where it was found.

Soviet Space Shuttle Found In Bahrain?

From: The Grain-Of-Salt Dept

Posted by Michael on Friday September 24, .nul:19 (Space)

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/24/1314215


Scott Peterson









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                         Re: New Orb Images - Taylor

From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 10:54:44 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 08:07:58 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Taylor


>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:56:22 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:39:05 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:06:58 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

><snip>

>>I share your position that there are indeed photos that defy
>>easy identification, but it is at best premature to count orb
>>images among them.

>Beautifully stated!

>Yes, there are "mysterious" photographs which turn up now and >
>then. But the so-called orb images are certainly not among
>them, >and are not even slightly mysterious.

Bob,

You may not have studied the range of Orb images available on
the web. Some of the fast moving ones leaving motion trails are
not so easy to explain away.

>I find it unfortunate that more people with real knowledge of
>optics are not involved in the study of anomalous photographs,
>but the optical scientists I know (with the exception of Bruce)
>all think of it as laughable and a total waste of time.

A bit like James Oberg's "laughable and a total waste of time"
attitude toward UFO's. And we all know how wrong he is.

>The orbs, just like the "rods", are optical artifacts of
>imaging systems.

Orbs may or may not be an optical artifact. It is not 100%
proven until extensive experimentation is undertaken with the
stereo 35mm film camera. This will position the Orb in
measurable 3-D space and calculatable diameter if they are real.

If they all show to be so close to the camera and out of focus
to form large 'Orbs' identical to the many photos constantly
becoming available, then we still have measurable data to
positively state the facts of the research results with much
more accuracy then we can with current test results using 2-D
film and digital photos.

If we are going to explain this 'optical anomaly' to the people
submitting the images to researchers for analysis and comment,
we should at least show that a full scientific analysis was used
to back-up out statements, not just a personal comment based on
a series of set-up Orb photos that only proves that close to
camera objects can be out of focus.

The so called 'Rods' are totally different to the Orb issue. The
'Rod' issue was much easier to prove. They are not an 'optical
anomaly', but a result of a fast moving insect when camera set
to slow shutter speed resulting in the recording of motion blur.

>Orbs will show up more and more with the proliferation of
>digital cameras with their much shorter focal length lenses and
>greater depth of field.

Now hold on a minute Bob. Your statement here is in conflict with
reality if I am correct. A short focal lens means that an object
can be positioned closer to the lens and remain in focus. The
shorter the focal length, the closer you can get to the lens and
remain in focus.

Just as the greater depth of field means full focus over a
greater distance from close to the lens to infinity. With
increased sensitivity of digital CCD's, a smaller f stop results
in greater depth of field.

This would mean there would be *less* chance of dust, lint, rain
and snow etc, causing out of focus 'Orbs' due to the short focal
lens and greater depth of field, not more.

My HP 120 digital camera with small drops of water placed
directly on the lens, does not show *any* alteration to image
quality. Yet with a clean lens, I have photographed Orbs.


Barry Taylor









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                Re: SPI Business 22nd September 2004 - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:37:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:10:14 -0400
Subject: Re: SPI Business 22nd September 2004 - Harney


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:22:45 +0000
>Subject: Re: SPI Business 22nd September 2004


>>From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:04:36 +0100
>>Subject: SPI Business 22nd September 2004

>>From: Malcolm Robinson <malckyspi.nul
>>Date: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 2:58 PM
>>Subject: SPI Business 22nd September 2004

<snip>

>>I'm pleased to say that we are building up a fine team of
>>speakers for our 2005 London Lecture programme. Also pleased to
>>say that we will be giving you true value for money by ensuring
>>that each month you will have TWO yes TWO guest speakers
>>instead
>>of the more often one speaker which we put on at the moment.

>>In closing, this is my 60th day without a cigarette, so I'm
>>quite chuffed with that. Generally it's been OK, but there is
>>the odd day, but the will power is still there at the moment.

>>OK hope to see you all Saturday. My best wishes to
>>you all.

>>Malcolm Robinson
>>Founder Strange Phenomena Investigations
>>25th Anniversary Year 1979-2004.
>>www.spiuk.net

>I'm not clear here about who is putting forth this garbage,
>Philip Mantle or Malcolm Robinson. But garbage it is.

For more details about Malcolm Robinson, his SPI and their odd
antics, see Kevin McClure's "Abduction Watch" 10/11, June 1998,
which is available at

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/abwatch/aw10.html


John Harney












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                     South Dakota Tech Hosts UFO Lecture

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:57:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:14:41 -0400
Subject: South Dakota Tech Hosts UFO Lecture



Source: The Rapid City Journal

http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2004/09/25/news/local/news13.txt

Friday, September 24, 2004 11:39 PM MDT

South Dakota Tech Hosts UFO Lecture

RAPID CITY -- In 1967, Robert Hastings was involved in a UFO
sighting at an Air Force missile base in Montana. It was an
experience that inspired him to begin collecting evidence of an
official government cover up of unidentified flying object
activity.

South Dakota School of Mines & Technology invites the community
to attend a free lecture by Hastings at 7 p.m. Monday in Surbeck
Center Ballroom.

In 1967, Hastings was a self-described "16-year-old Air Force
brat" who knew several air traffic controllers on base.

He was in the tower that March, when five unidentified aerial
targets suddenly began to be tracked on multiple radar scopes.

"On the night in question, it was immediately apparent to these
gentlemen that the objects they were tracking on radar were
neither conventional aircraft nor helicopters," Hastings has
told audiences. "For approximately a 30-minute period, these
aerial objects were observed on radar at times to hover; at
other times, they performed high speed aerial maneuvers.

"At one point during the radar tracking, two jets were launched
to attempt an intercept of these objects, whereupon they were
observed to ascend in unison at an extreme rate of speed."

Hastings said the five objects were maneuvering near nuclear
missile silos southeast of the base.

Since then, Hastings has collected thousands of pages of
previously classified documents that he believes prove that the
U.S. government has hidden the existence of UFOs from the
public.

Hastings will speak about that evidence during his lecture at
Tech.

The event is sponsored by Tech Activities and Programs, the
university's student programming board












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                    Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:29:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:18:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter In Alaska - Hatch


>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:39:33 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Re: Close Encounter In Alaska

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:18:32 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Close Encounter In Alaska

>>>I did not get the impression he was making this up or that he
>>>was delusional. There was some difficulty in talking with him
>>>because he was on a radiophone with some voice echo and lag.

>>>I believe the place is technically called Bettles Field, AK,
>>>since it's just some outlying houses surrounding the airfield,
>>>as far as I was able to tell.

>>I found the place and it checks out on Airnav.com. For now, its
>>highlighted on this map of Alaska - Yukon that I just put up:

>>http://www.larryhatch.net/AKYUK.html

>>Look for the red dot between two green arrows. Remote is an
>>understatement. Please advise of any factual errors in the brief
>>text on that page.

<snip>

Hello again Chris:

At last now, with a cold beer at the ready, I can do a quality
surf for Bettles (field), AK.

First off there is a Magnetometer station there, probably
associated with the weather station:

http://midwoodscience.org/elert/lab/aurora/

Some pix I saw earlier had absolutely spectacular aurorae, one
more like a ghostly long lived lightning strike than the usual
hazy curtains.

>I think remoteness might be good enough.

Remoteness is definitely a plus if you are trying
to keep your UFOs out of the news.

I also searched for the HAARP Project:

http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/

... in case there is any connection, but that's way-the-heck-off
in Gakona, AK.

A search for "Bettles Field" alone yields tons of predictable
spam sites: "Florists in Bettles Field", Hotels in BF, even a BF
Dental Insurance Plan Provider! I bet the UFO witness would like
some flowers or dental insurance.

Flockfinder.com reassures the religiously minded that " Finding
good churches in Bettles Field Alaska is the main purpose of our
site..... There are a many great churches in Bettles Field
Alaska, so don't stop searching."

I'll pass on that [burp!]

It looks like Bettles was originally a supply dock from the gold
rush days .. about as far upriver as a raft of supplies could
get before going overland.

The Bettles Lodge site gives the best local color I could find.
There's a wet bar in there someplace, and large moose antlers on
the outside. This URL also gives history etc. The lodge is
popular with the Japanese for some reason. They like places with
lots of free open space for understandable reasons.

http://www.alaska.net/~bttlodge/

There is no road to Bettles. Its a fly-in destination with rates
to match, $500/nite for the first nite, extra nites are maybe
$175 US, since they don't have to fly you back in and out again.
This is not Motel-6, but at least they have a bar.

Frankly, if I had a UFO scouting Planet Earth, I would check out
Bettles, AK too. But, it wouldn't be the first place on my list,
not with those rates.


Best wishes

- Larry

...So the kangaroo said to the bartender: "well with these
prices you may never see another one."










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             Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 07:34:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:23:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 12:25:04 EDT
>Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:38:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

<snip>

>>Though, this convenient "item fixation" is the debate's stock in
>>trade. In the Army we called it pole-vaulting over tic-turds to
>>avoid a dangerous mission. I think the concept applies just as
>>well here.

><snip>

>Oh phulllease spare me the melodramatic bilge.

I don't think so, Sir, even as I can see how impassioned your
plea really was. What I did, in this instance, was take a small
point and blow it up out of proportion to its value: my own
little "locker rupture"...  Irritating, isn't it?  I find it
maddening; however, and so must refrain from sparing my opponent
_anything_.

>I was simply
>questioning the "August 1952" _date_ in the portions you so
>conveniently omitted.

"Convenient" - ah yes, and sometimes even "self-invented"...
plus I was called on _my_ small scurrilousness the very next
day, delightedly, from _both_ sides of the aisle. <ROTFL>


alienview.nul
 www.AlienView.net










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   Sep > Sep 25

                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Reason

From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:05:29 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:25:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Reason


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:42:45 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>4. There is evidence of Hopkins leading the witnesses, albeit
> unconsciously.

>5. Hopkins appears to be too predisposed to conjecture of an
>anomalous explanation.

>6. Baker and Loftus are both critical of his technique. Common
>sense tells me that they are probably right.

Yes, even Loftus hits the mark occasionally.

This is absolutely not the way to interview children, ever.

Children in strange situations will try to learn what they are
suposed to do in those situations, and a large part of that
involves looking for clues about appropriate social behavior
from the adults around them. This learning process is part of
what being a child is all about.

A researcher, therapist or interviewer who isn't aware of this,
and who doesn't control their interactions with the child
accordingly, will end up getting nonsense out of the interview.


Cathy

[Catherine Reason]








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             Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 08:06:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:30:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -


>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:47:56 -0700
>Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:38:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

><snip>

>Whoa Alfred,

>Last I checked, Brad Sparks wasn't a storm trooper for the
>"CSICOPian Empire." He pointed out a possibly serious
>anachronism in the author's account, but which turned out on
>further research to not amount to much.

Ok, Doc, if you say so... all that walk and quack like a storm-
trooper is not necessarily a storm-trooper.<g>

>This is all part of vetting a story for truthfullness. Sometimes
>inconsistencies can be red flags that something is wrong;
>sometimes not.

No argument there, Sir. Without collusion... you, along with
Mr. Sparks, prove the point of my little "melodrama"... That
"nit-vaulting" is a tactic of obfuscation, and that this side of
the ufological aisle is more reflectively self-checking even as
the other side is _not_! Please see my response to Mr. Sparks,
and thank you for the reasonable and pertinent admonition.

Very gratifying.



alienview.nul
www.AlienView.net









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   Sep > Sep 26

                        Rutan Ready To Realise Vision

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:27:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:27:36 -0400
Subject: Rutan Ready To Realise Vision




"I told them that I had spent half an hour alone in the King's
chamber of the Great Pyramid" --Bert Rutan

---

Source: BBC News OnLine - UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3676312.stm

09-25-04


Rutan Ready To Realise Vision
By Jo Twist
BBC News Online science and technology staff

As the first X-Prize flights go ahead, BBC News Online asks
SpaceShipOne's Burt Rutan to explain his motivation and vision.

One might think that a man who dreams of opening up space to the
holidaymaking public would have had his imagination fired as a
boy by science fiction novels.

But Burt Rutan, 61, has only ever read one sci-fi book: Carl
Sagan's Contact.

A child of the mid-50s, his strongest memory was Wernher von
Braun's collaboration with Walt Disney.

The German physicist drove most of the US space programme's
achievements until his death in 1977, and made three popular
space films for Disney TV between 1955 and 1957.

The films, showing man in space, on the Moon, on Mars, and the
"unknown", fascinated the boy Rutan.

"The most exciting thing I saw as a child was this vision of von
Braun going to the back of the Moon," he explains to BBC News
Online, as he relaxes in his plus-fours and diamond socks in
preparation for a round of golf.

"That was the strongest impression of adventure, and I think
that was so important because the whole world had that sense of
adventure 500 years ago when Magellan made it around the world."

Shortcut into space

As a child, Rutan was also surrounded by a furious debate about
possible man-made canals and intelligent life on Mars.

But the message behind the von Braun-Disney films was about
selling the idea of space travel to the American public,
convincing them of the need for the space race.

Similarly, SpaceShipOne and the other X-Prize contenders are
trying to sell the idea that space travel can be prised out of
the government's grip and offered to thousands of ordinary folk.

Because of what the "little guys" are trying to do, Rutan
envisages affordable space tourism in 10 to 15 years.

Rutan is no "little guy", however. His company, Scaled
Composites, is financed by one of the richest men in the world,
Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen.

They share a curiosity about the "unknowns" of space. Allen has
injected large sums into Seti (Search for Extra Terrestrial
Intelligence), as well as Scaled Composites.

But when it comes to space, Rutan's passion focuses on the
engineering challenges it presents, not ET.

Rocket passion

As a child, he was fascinated with building planes and rockets.

"We didn't have practical model rockets in the 50s.

"The ones we made were very dangerous and the kids that played
with them didn't have all their fingers, and sometimes were
blind in one eye."

And on 21 June 2004, his ultimate rocket - SpaceShipOne - proved
that there was a future for non-governmental space access. And
it did not poke anyone's eye out.

So strong is his love of engineering, he was inspired to study
the pyramids of ancient Egypt.

Recently, he was misquoted in a magazine interview: he was said
to believe aliens built them.

"I told them that I had spent half an hour alone in the King's
chamber of the Great Pyramid," Rutan explains. From his
engineering perspective, his conclusions differed from what
Egyptologists said.

"I just believe that we are yet to learn what technologies they
had to assemble these perfectly fitting stones that high up in
the King's chamber of the Great Pyramid."

Eye on the sky

Once in awe, Rutan is now somewhat critical of the US space
agency (Nasa). In the 1970s, the capability of affordable space
flight had been proved, he insists.

But Rutan believes the space agency should have worked the
capability harder into a programme in the early 70s, instead of
concentrating on beating the Russians to the Moon.

In 1961, there were four manned spaceflights in a year, but the
race to the Moon took over.

"By 1973, we had a space station, the Skylab, and we had
multiple probes going up to planets. So, all this wonderful
stuff happened in 10 to 15 years.

"About that time, there should have been enormous initiatives to
make it affordable for people to fly in space, not just a
handful of trained Nasa astronauts and Russian cosmonauts.

"If you asked Nasa in those days how long will it be until it is
affordable so that I can fly, the answer would be, 'we're
working on it and it 30 years there will be affordability'."

'Black sky'

He decided instead to dedicate his skills to airplanes. Besides,
he was safe in the hope that by the time he was 60, he would be
able to buy his ticket to space.

"All of us wanted to fly in space," says Rutan. "When we saw
what these astronauts said when they came back from these
flights, it just amazed everyone."

But, he says, ask the same question of Nasa now and the answer
is the same as 30 years ago. Nasa is working on it and it will
be affordable in 30 years' time.

"If it is 30 years, I will 90 and will a guy who is 90 get to
fly?" To Rutan, the two choices became apparent.

"The first choice was to give up, and admit that I would never
go into space, never see that black sky. The other choice I had
was to do something about it."

Which is what he did, in secret, in the quiet of the Mojave
desert. The result, four years later, was the first private
manned spaceship.

"Once thousands are flying into space, they'll look back and
ask, 'why did this happen?'

"And what I believe they will conclude is because somebody had
the courage to just go out and just see if the little guy with
his eye on affordability could actually do this."

As for ET? Rutan hopes there is local life on other planets,
because it would be fun to do what holidaymakers do: "interface
them".


SpaceShipOne's X-Prize attempts take place on 29 September and 4
October.







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   Sep > Sep 26

             Re: South Dakota Tech Hosts UFO Lecture - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 08:34:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:31:16 -0400
Subject: Re: South Dakota Tech Hosts UFO Lecture - Lehmberg


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:57:06 -0700
>South Dakota Tech Hosts UFO Lecture

>Source: The Rapid City Journal

>http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2004/09/25/news/local/news13.txt

>Friday, September 24, 2004 11:39 PM MDT

>South Dakota Tech Hosts UFO Lecture

>RAPID CITY -- In 1967, Robert Hastings was involved in a UFO
>sighting at an Air Force missile base in Montana. It was an
>experience that inspired him to begin collecting evidence of an
>official government cover up of unidentified flying object
>activity.

>South Dakota School of Mines & Technology invites the community
>to attend a free lecture by Hastings at 7 p.m. Monday in Surbeck
>Center Ballroom.

<snip>

It was a presentation given by Mr. Hastings at Troy University,
Troy, Alabama, that rekindled an old interest in the ufological
for me in 1994.  He was _very_ compelling. 10 years later and
the wheels still spin.....

For all the trouble that the presentation ended up causing me in
the aggregate for the next decade, still, I have to thank him.
Reality _is_ better.


alienview.nul
www.AlienView.net









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   Sep > Sep 26

                      Re: Magonia Supplement 52 - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 07:44:16 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:33:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement 52 - Hatch


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:11:52 +0100
>Subject: Magonia Supplement 52

>Because of technical problems with the html edition of Magonia
>Supplement No. 52 there has been some delay in putting it on
>line. It is now available on the Magonia Extra web site -

>http://magonia.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk


Hello:

Can you provide a direct URL to the page you mention? Time is
limited here, and I cannot search your entire site.

Thanks

- LH










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                              Blimp-Like Object

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 10:09:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:34:57 -0400
Subject: Blimp-Like Object


Forwarded to the UFO UpDates List for its consideration and
comment - an interesting picture.

http://www.fkbureau.org/


alienview.nul  -:=A6:-
www.AlienView.net








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   Sep > Sep 26

               Re: Rolling, Rolling, Rolling, Keep Them Rovers

From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:11:51 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:38:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Rolling, Rolling, Rolling, Keep Them Rovers


>From: Greg Boone <EvEvolbabyoaolom>
>To: ufufoupdatesivirtuallystrangeet
>Date: Wed, 22 SeSep004 13:58:50 EDT
>Subject: Rolling, Rolling, Rolling, Keep Them Rovers Rolling

hthttp/wwwwwncnnom/2004/TECH/space/09/22/mars.rovers.apapndex.hthtml

>This post header is of course a knock off of the popular TV
>western theme from the show, Rawhide.

>After a 2 week 'cone of silence' the rovers are back at it and
>NASA has extended funding for their mission.

>Sometimes NASA builds things that just won't quit. It's about
>time they get the kudos considering the dangers, budgets,
>politics they have to overcome just to get these missions up and
>going.

>If memory serves, aren't the Pioneer and Voyager craft still
>kicking? I believe one of them is.


>Best,

>Greg

Hi Greg and listers

Congratulations also go to the manufacturers of these well
esteemed Human creations but we hope the highly inintelligent
Martian street-crime Bunnies don't spoil things for us all

hthttp/wwwwwocolswebom/mamarsroverlifepjpg

(27 kbkbicture)

Not sure if Martian bunnies would have raw Hides?

:-)

col

hthttp/wwwwwocolswebom








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                    Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread

From: Xxx Xxx <xxx.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 12:47:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:43:33 -0400
Subject: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread


Hi, Errol, et al,

There is presently a tremendously irritating thread on UFO
UpDates that reoccurs once every two or three years. The thread
involves Budd Hopkins. In general, the theme of the thread
condemns Budd's hypnosis techniques, and in specific, an
accusation that Budd leads witnesses - especially children.
You'd think someone making a charge like this would have some
special knowledge of Budd's methods, but these claims are made
by people who have no experience in hypnosis, and who are making
the claim on the basis of incomplete and out of context excerpts
from notoriously non-factual television specials. Is this an
example of their brand of research?

The present thread was started by someone who cited his 'memory'
of an excerpt from a show _he_ admittedly hadn't even seen in
years. The thread has now degenerated into participants nodding
in agreement about how bad it is to lead children into
frightening and potentially damaging belief structures.

Yes, I think we all agree its bad to lead any witness, most
especially children. The irritation comes from the fact that
there is no basis for this contention. Budd simply doesn't do
it.

Greg Sandow has written intelligently about the subject after
watching Budd perform his methods, and Greg's articles can be
found at:

http://www.gregsandow.com/ufo/Contents/contents.htm

Further, Budd put out a video on his methods and techniques with
children clients a few years ago. It may still be available for
purchase on his site. Nobody has ever cited this video, and it
is very forthcoming in answering many of the present questions
posed by those participating in the thread. Nowhere in the video
does the objective viewer sense that Budd is leading the
responses of the children.

On a personal note, I've talked to Budd on this very topic,
having a child myself who may have had an abduction experience.
I can assure you that nothing Budd Hopkins has ever said on his
own website, his essays and articles, or on his video on the
subject, or even in his personal conversations would ever lead
an intelligent observer to assume or infer that he leads his
child clients into believing in the abduction experience.

Inferring abuse of children - even if it simply involves
research methodology - is deliberately inflammatory and an
explosively unfair attack if there's no strong basis for it. I
urge everyone to do at least a reasonable amount of research on
the issue themselves before they participate in this frustrating
and misleading thread. As we've seen on Updates over the years,
(and unfortunately in American politics as well), these sorts of
charges are made by people who have run out of ideas on how to
defend their opinions and simply want to exact some personal
damage. This sort of attack crosses the line in terms of decency
and the those writers making these accusations should be ashamed
of themselves.


Best,

Anon








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               Re: 'Kidnapped By UFOs?' NOVA 1997 Transcript -

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:22:20 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:52:55 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Kidnapped By UFOs?' NOVA 1997 Transcript -


>[Posted For Educational Purposes Only]

>Source: NOVA OnLine

>http://www-c.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2306tufos.html

>http://www-c.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/

>NOVA #2306T: Kidnapped by UFOs?
>REPACK

>Broadcast Transcript
>PBS Airdate: April 1, 1997

<snip>

>DR. JOHN MACK: There are a number of psychological and
>psychiatric studies that have been done of these individuals,
>and none of them has shown any consistent personality pattern.
>None has shown any consistent psychopathology. A number of the
>people have been traumatized by their experiences, but that is as
>a result of the experiences.

>JOE MORTON: Harvard University psychiatrist John Mack seems an
>unlikely proponent of alien abduction.

>DR. JOHN MACK: I first got into this field, really without
>knowing I was getting into it. I had a psychologist colleague
>who asked me, did I want to meet Budd Hopkins, and I said,
>"Who's he?" This was the fall of 1989. And she explained that he
>was an artist in New York who took seriously the stories of
>people who reported being taken by alien beings into spacecraft.
>And my reaction to her was that he must be quite mad if he
>believes such stories, and he must be dealing with some
>contemporary sort of psychosis.

<snip>

Well this says a mouthful!

Here we have Dr. Mack whose first impression was that Hopkins
the researcher, "must be quite mad if he believes such stories,
and he must be dealing with some contemporary sort of
psychosis."

Dr. Mack was honest enough to state his first impression. Him
being at the top of his field at that! Goes to show at that time
and perhaps now how abductees, experiencers are treated right
off the bat.

This is what I've been beefing about for some time now having
talked to tens of thousands of believers, researchers,
abductees. Past 50 years they've been ostracized, attacked,
thrown in psychiatric facilities, beaten etc. Yet the majority
of the population of the planet believe in fairies, angels,
demons, leprechauns, sprites, elves etc. but you won't find them
tossed in a mental institution. Reason being is those beliefs
make alot of money and are culturally acceptable.

It's not like if you grab on to an ET and he'll lead you to a
pot o' gold or make you cookies in a hollow tree or see that you
get to some afterlife shangri-la where you'll dance with virgins
and such nonsense. I don't see any 'happy camper' abduction
stories there.

So if Dr. Mack had concluded "none of them has shown any
consistent  personality pattern. None has shown any consistent
psychopathology." then where was the broad public announcement
to the press that these people aren't crazy? Dr. Mack is a top
top professional and suddenly out of the clear blue sky his
scientific analysis is ignored? Any other day of the week he'd
been applauded for his efforts but when he finds the contrary to
popular or better yet, enforced opinion, he's ignored and
attacked?

I'ld bet anybody that if there was some pharmaceutical drug
attached with the abduction experience and made lots of money
there'd be UFO abduction stories plastered on the front pages of
every rag from here to the lower east side of the Land of Oz.

Sure, I'm not one for hypnosis. That's just me. Yet it doesn't
take a rocket scientist to see between the lines here.

We've got to come to grips here and realize that no matter what
data we present, even from bona fide scientists, it won't be
accepted by the mainstream for who knows what various
knuckleheaded reasons.

I enjoy reading the Scriptures. They're full of examples of just
this. One testament after another is full of how God tells
someone to do something, everyone else thinks the person is
crazy and attacks or degrades or even kills them, then what God
said comes to pass. Next chapter it's the same thing over and
over again. You'ld figure somewhere along the line someone would
have 'gotten' it by now.

Even if you had Dan Rather expose the UFO issue, no one would
believe him.

Looks like abductees, witnesses, experiencers 'can't win for
losing' as they're not only tormented by strange beings but they
face far greater torment from their own kind.


Best,

Greg








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                   Hopkins' 1996 NOVA Pre-Airing Comments

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:11:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:11:17 -0400
Subject: Hopkins' 1996 NOVA Pre-Airing Comments





========
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Budd Hopkins And NOVA
From: Errol Bruce-Knapp tomt.nul>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 00:30:30 GMT

Budd Hopkins faxed me the following, asking that I post it. He'd
originally written it (I think) to be posted once the NOVA show
'Kidnapped By Aliens' had aired on PBS at the end of February
1996.

In order to not confuse, I've taken the liberty of 'tweaking'
some of the tenses and wording, since this is/was posted before
the air-date.

File Name: HOPNOVA.TXT

Date compiled: 02-14-96

Compiled by: Errol Bruce-Knapp - UFO UpDates - Toronto


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


A Response To NOVA'S Program On The UFO Abduction Phenomenon

Or

Science Is Not Always What Science Programs Do

by

Budd Hopkins


Readers familiar with the writings and lectures of the late
Allen Hynek may recognize in the above title an expanded version
of one of his most quoted bon mots, "Science is not always what
scientists do." After pre-viewing the soon to be aired NOVA
program which systematically and outrageously distorts the UFO
abduction phenomenon and my work in the field, it's fair to say
that NOVA has abandoned its right to be thought of as either
objective, balanced, or scientific. However, I suppose it's a
perverse sort of honor to find my work trashed by people with
the same intolerant mindset as those who also trashed the
research of Dr. Hynek, Dr. James McDonald, and so many others
who have labored in the same unfashionable vineyard.

What NOVA presents in its luridly titled program, 'KIDNAPPED BY
ALIENS?' is a mangling of the truth, a polemic having absolutely
nothing to do with scientific investigation. Typically, on a
show filled with hostile authority figures with little or no
acquaintance with the data, astronomer Carl Sagan said that he
believed all abduction accounts are delusions or hallucinations.
So far, NOVA appears unconcerned that Dr. Sagan has yet to mount
a serious investigation into even _one_ abduction report. Should
we be concerned with a program so obviously biased? After all,
my informal inquiries reveal that TV critics, media
professionals and especially scientists almost universally view
Nova as a slick operation pandering to the same sensation-
seeking audiences as commercial TV. This NOVA UFO program was
designed to air during 'Sweeps Week', the period when the
ratings war is at its hottest. Consequently, before they plunged
in the knife later in the show, the producers began it in the
most sensational tabloid style imaginable, with eerie music,
foggy re-enactments and spooky lights, suggesting that NOVA was
now going head-to-head with 'Hardcopy' and 'Entertainment
Tonight'.

But for anyone interested in truth, we _must_ care about NOVA's
misrepresentations. The show undeniably reaches many public
television viewers and is still regarded by those outside the
scientific and intellectual communities as a science program.
Its deceptions, unfortunately, will mislead a large, ultimately
world-wide audience now, and in later reruns and videotape
sales.

The main reason for the program's destructiveness is its
message, implied and delivered directly, that all abductees -
 _all_ - are weak-minded patsies, delusional, or victims of
repeated hallucinations. In other words, liars aside, _all_ who
report such experiences are, to some extent, mentally abnormal.

What evidence does Dr. Sagan, for example, present to buttress
his sweeping - and to the abductees, damning - indictment of
their ability to separate fantasy from reality?

None. None whatsoever. For a man regarded within popular culture
as a kind of 'Pope of Science' to offer such a wholesale
denigration of UFO abductees with no supporting evidence is
worse than irresponsible.

In the psychological literature there is only one report of an
in-depth, blind study of the mental health of abductees - the
1983 report by Dr. Elizabeth Slater - and it shows that Dr.
Sagan's opinion

is totally unsupportable.*

Did NOVA make any effort to find out if there is any evidence
supporting Sagan's 'diagnosis' of the abductees he'd never met?
More to the point, how many abductees on the show did NOVA ask
to submit to psychological tests, psychiatric interviews and the
like? To my knowledge, _none_. John, a former counselor and one
of the abductees who appears at length on the program, informed
NOVA by letter that he would present himself for any type of
test, medical or psychological, that they wished to administer.
If NOVA were trying to do an objective, scientific study as they
claimed, they should have instantly accepted John's offer.
Instead, they chose to ignore it. When one considers the
destructive conclusions NOVA presented about the abductees they
showed on camera, they cannot argue that they refused John's
offer out of concern for his reputation. There seems to be only
one reason to decline the opportunity of conducting
psychological tests: the fear that the results might destroy
their theories and thus expose NOVA's deceptions.

Having declined to employ any scientifically valid testing, the
producers went on, in effect, to have John diagnosed on the air
by 'experts' who'd never met him. This was the program's basic
modus operandi: material that I presume was carefully pre-
selected was presented, for negative comment. to experts
ignorant of the mass of UFO abduction case material and who were
given no opportunity to interview the witnesses. Their comments
therefore have the same degree of validity as the diagnoses
issued by pop psychologists on daytime radio and TV after two -
 or three-minute conversations with the caller, a practice
NOVA's producers would otherwise be the first to condemn.

But even worse is the show's blatantly dishonest presentation of
a family case to which they devote a great deal of airtime. The
young mother of two small children had written a letter to me,
and with her permission I presented a copy of it to producer
Denise DiIanni of the NOVA staff. In her letter the young woman
said this about her abduction experiences:

    "My memories are real and I have not had to use hypnosis to
     remember them."

From a life-long series of encounters she records the following
details:

   "The 'little men' as I used to call them would enter my
    bedroom from the same place in the wall... [[They) were
    small, had large heads with large dark eyes that seem to
    look right through me."

Describing painful physical procedures, she added:

    "The tears would roll down my cheeks into my ears, an
     uncomfortable feeling. I was unable to wipe my tears
     away..."

She described the alien figures as moving in unison, and in
another encounter:

    "being slowly lowered into my mattress, so slow that I would
    think 'hurry up, I just want to feel my mattress under me
    and go to sleep.'"

On another occasion she saw her brother being taken in broad
daylight:

   "He looked so tired and was slumped over... I remember being
    very worried that he was too little to get into that object
     n the sky."

In these accounts and in later, face-to-face interviews with the
NOVA crew present, she described many more experiences from
childhood to the present, _all_recollected_without_hypnosis_.
What's more, her husband vividly described watching their little
son being floated out of the house by the aliens while he lay
paralyzed on the floor of their front hall. With NOVA's camera
recording it all, he lay down exactly where he remembered having
fallen and described where each alien had been standing. He
explained that the master bedroom was on the other side of the
wall he was leaning against. Desperately trying to alert his
sleeping wife, he showed us how he tried in vain to move his leg
enough to bang against the wall to summon help.

His testimony was the most vivid and important of our visit to
their home. It corroborated his wife's account and explained
their powerful fear for their children's safety. _But_all_of_
_this_eyewitness_testimony_and_dramatic_film_footage
_was_suppressed_by_Nova_. All of it.

In its place, producer DiIanni assembled an emasculated case in
which only the vaguest, most tenuous aspects of the family's
testimony were presented. Having thus suppressed all of the
strongest evidence, NOVA went on to slander my view of the
case's validity with the following summary: "Budd Hopkins thinks
this (portentous pause) provides compelling evidence: children
pausing at drawing, _dreams_ of strange events that feel real,
and images of traumatic sexual assault,
_remembered_only_under_hypnosis_!" (my emphasis)

Through 'creative editing' I'm portrayed as trying to ascribe an
abduction memory to an innocent child. In addition to the
anguished father's eye-witness account of laying paralyzed while
he watched the aliens taking his son out of the house, the
child's mother had included in her letter the following account
of what they went through when their boy was three-years old:

    "My husband and I saw blinking lights in my sons bedroom...
    We continue to have problems with our son at night... When
    his dad gets him dressed in the morning he will ask questions
    (such as) 'How do they come through the walls? How do they
    park it there, there's no road there...' He talks about
    tables with no legs, 'but those are the kind you don't eat
    on.' He tells me how chilly it was outside last night."

There is, of course, much more, all of which was known to Ms.
DiIanni. But in her script I am portrayed as suspecting the
boy's possible abduction solely because of one piece of
evidence: A child "pausing at a drawing of an alien". As NOVA
well knows, no one on earth would ever describe that isolated,
ambiguous reaction as "compelling evidence" - unless their goal
was a conscious attempt to make the individual look like a fool.

I won't devote much time to demonstrate the ways NOVA edited my
hypnotic sessions to make it appear that I'm leading the
witness, though I must provide at least one...

For many years I've used what I call the "body inventory" method
to avoid leading hypnotic subjects. When the witness describes
being stretched out on an examination table, I say that we will
now explore all the sensations that he/she feels from the feet,
systematically up through the body, to the top of the head. I
explain that the subject might feel a different sensation in
some part of the body: pleasure, pain, an itch, a tickle, heat,
cold, etc. - or that that part of the body may feel perfectly
normal. I begin with the feet, proceed to the ankles, shins,
calves, then the thighs, the sexual organs, the lower abdomen,
the stomach and chest, the arms and hands, the head, and then
the eyes, the nose, inside and out, the mouth, inside and out,
and the ears, inside and out. The purpose is to _avoid_ leading
the subject to any one particular part of the body by naming
most all of them at the very outset. NOVA, of course, didn't
devote even three words of explanation to this painstakingly
slow and objective process - it can take up to a half hour - but
suddenly cut in as I direct the subject's attention to her
"female parts..." To put the least damaging interpretation on
NOVA's deceptive editing, its result is to suggest that I'm
leading the witness directly into sexual recollections or
fantasies, something that a full transcript of the session would
clearly refute.

When I was originally approached by NOVA's Denise DiIanni, I was
told that she would only deal with people who agreed to show
their faces on national TV. I explained that of the more than
500 likely abductees I've worked with one-on-one, only about 15
would agree to appear on national TV. Unfortunately, among the
271 who declined to appear were all the police officers, the (7)
psychiatrists, the scientists, Ph.D.s, business executives,
psychologists, physicians and even a NASA research scientist
with whom I'd worked; in short, the people with the most to lose
by subjecting themselves to potential public ridicule.
Obviously, this reluctant 97% included the most highly
credentialed and scientifically sophisticated abductees, the
very individuals one would think NOVA should be most interested
in interviewing if the program were to have scientific
relevance. I asked if some of these highly credible people might
be allowed to discuss their abduction experiences on camera,
backlit or in silhouette, but NOVA declined, refusing to
interview anyone outside the self- selected 3%. This decision
alone demonstrated to me Ms. DiIanni's preference for
potentially sensational TV footage over any attempt at
scientific depth or inclusiveness.

The very brave handful who agreed to appear on national TV were
mainly young and independent and for the most part not subject
to the career risks of corporate politics. None were offered,
and none requested, financial remuneration. All agreed to appear
as a way of helping other abductees, in much the way a few rape
victims will also come forward publicity, despite potential
humiliation. Rape victims are guaranteed to receive sympathy.
However, the abductees on _Kidnapped_by_Aliens? were subtly but
thoroughly discredited, beginning with that lurid title and the
question mark that cast doubt on their testimony before it was
even heard. Their bravery and generous spirit of cooperation was
rewarded by NOVA's implication that all of them were either
deluded, hallucinating, or simply weak-minded because, as NOVA's
'experts' said, such experiences simply cannot happen. At one
point, physicist Paul Horowitz, who apparently has no idea of
the range of evidence supporting UFO reality, categorically
stated that UFOs don't exist and have never landed!

NOVA interviewed me at length in my studio, and, knowing all the
fashionable theories debunkers use to discredit anyone reporting
an abduction experience, I chose to stress the reports that fell
outside these conventional explanations. I dealt with the huge
number of abduction accounts that surface
_without_the_use_of_hypnosis, knowing that NOVA was sure to
deride the process. True to form, the program implied over and
over with sledgehammer thoroughness that hypnosis should be
thought of as the _generating_cause_ of these (automatically
false) abduction accounts. My discussion of contradictory data -
 the mass of non-hypnosis abduction reports wasn't even
mentioned on the program.

I showed producer DiIanni a collection of photographs of the
physical marks and scars that are the common sequelae of UFO
abductions, and urged her to interview some of the people
bearing the more dramatic wounds. Since these individuals were
among the 97% unwilling to run the risk of ridicule by appearing
on camera, NOVA not only refused to film them in shadow, but
_the_slides_of_their_wounds__and_marks_which_I_was_asked_to_lend
_to_NOVA_were_never_shown_.

Also suppressed were the photographs I submitted showing ground
traces and alterations of the soil caused by UFO landings. NOVA
staffer Liesl Clark, in charge of the program's Internet Web,
informed me that to show such physical evidence would be "to
open a can of worms". She was right about that.

So, after being told that the abduction phenomenon was merely an
artifact of hypnosis, the public was also deliberately denied
any chance to see, to hear about and to consider photographic
evidence of reported alien physical procedures and UFO ground
traces. Thus, another of the debunker's false but favorite myths
was reinforced: "There is no physical evidence."

It's one thing, of course, to disagree as to the meaning and the
degree of probative weight to ascribe to physical evidence, but
it's another thing to suppress that evidence altogether.

Knowing that 'sleep paralysis' is one of the most preposterous
general explanations of abduction reports yet offered, I
described to NOVA's representative the existence of hundreds of
accounts of abductions that took place in the daytime with all
of the participants

fully awake, and I cited examples. Since this fact also wasn't
mentioned during the program - which naturally restricted itself
solely to those cases which more plausibly fit the sleep paralysis
theory - the public was misled yet again: "It's always hypnosis,
there's never any physical evidence. and like sleep paralysis, it
always happens at night." Ms. DiIanni knew that thousands of case
reports prove all of these statements false, but chose to suppress
that information, too, on her show.

Though it's been painful having to spend so much time describing
_some_ of NOVA's many systematic deceptions, distortions and
omissions, the denigration of thousands of decent, mentally
sound people who have reported UFO abductions cannot be left
unchallenged. Not once did any of NOVA's on-camera, debunking
consultants admit that any of these people might simply be
telling the truth. I was not naive enough to think that NOVA
having produced an earlier program opposing the reality of UFOs,
would now turn around and proclaim the reality of UFO
_abductions_.

I was naive enough, however, to credit the producers and Ms.
DiIanni in particular, with sufficient honesty to make a very
small admission:

that despite all the debunkers' theories, all the data has not
been explained and that an intriguing mystery does remain. In my
wildest imagination I never thought they would have the
arrogance to imply that _all_ abduction experiences can be
explained away by these (mutually contradictory) debunking
theories, or that in doing so NOVA would be so unscrupulous as
to deliberately suppress all evidence to the contrary.

People who trust NOVA will also unknowingly accept falsehoods
such as the following, as true:

     NOVA said that after the film 'Close Encounters' appeared,
     the number of UFO sightings increased, an example of the
     media generating 'false reports'. But in fact during that
     time, the number of new sightings actually decreased. For my
     part, NOVA often referred to me as "a therapist", though
     they are well aware that I've never made that claim and have
     never charged an abductee a penny for any help I've given.

But the acceptance of false information isn't the worst result
of NOVA's deceptions. Far more damaging is the fact that anyone
currently thinking of going public with a personal abduction
account will be extremely hesitant to do so. Any physicians,
policemen, psychiatrists, scientists, military officers or the
like who have experienced UFO abductions will now have even more
reason to keep silent. Having seen how NOVA distorted and
dismissed other abductees accounts, few of these potentially
valuable new witnesses will agree to step forward. In the light
of all this, it's fair to describe NOVA as having both tampered
with evidence and intimidated future witnesses.

On top of everything, Ms. DiIanni's show is being hyped for all the
sensationalism and controversy that NOVA could squeeze out of the
subject, going so shamelessly low as to beg the on-camera abductees to

appear in promotional spots without first informing them how they
would be treated on the program. It was as if innocent people were
being asked to sell tickets to their own public humiliation. What NOVA
produced was not a science program but a kind of middle-brow Jenny
Jones or Geraldo. Denise DiIanni and executive producer Paula Apsell
and all those responsible for the final edit of this show should be
ashamed of themselves.

---

*Slater, Dr. Elizabeth et al., 'The Final Report on the
Psychological Testing of UFO Abductees', Washington, D.C.: Fund
for UFO Research, 1983.

For reprints of this article on the NOVA program, write to:
Budd Hopkins - Intruders Foundation, P.O. Box 30233, NY, NY, 10011.



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     O   \___/|_| \___/   \___/| .__/___/\__,_|\__\___/__/   O
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   Sep > Sep 26

                         NOVA's Attitude Toward UFOs

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:28:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:28:14 -0400
Subject: NOVA's Attitude Toward UFOs





The UFO UpDates Archive contains much on NOVA's attitude toward
UFOs.

An example:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/apr/m11-004.shtml


Errol Bruce-Knapp










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   Sep > Sep 26

             Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:32:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:32:12 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked - Sparks


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:38:35 EDT
>Subject: Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:40:25 -0500
>>Subject: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked


>>Source: The Triangle - A Student Newspaper at
>>    Drexel University Philadelphia

>>http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/09/23/SciTech/Ufo->>science.Investigation
s.Debunked-729532.shtml

>>09-23-04


>>UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked
>>The Iron Skeptic
>>By Aaron Sakulich

>>If you're anything like I am, you would probably be overwhelmed
>>with disgust and outrage at seeing an article about UFOs in the
>>science and technology section of a newspaper. While on the one
>>hand the details of "Ufology" don't belong in any reputable
>>paper, a close look at the interaction between science and the
>>investigation of UFO claims is very enlightening.

<snip>

>>In the mid-fifties, "contactees" who claimed to have been
>>contacted by the crews of alien spaceships began to appear. It
>>is these people who turned investigations of UFOs into a circus
>>of insanity, and I think it fairly obvious that each and every
>>one of these people is suffering from a mental disorder of one
>>sort or another. But even here, scientists have a chance to
>>learn: A psychologist or sociologist could write a lifetime of
>>free meal tickets studying the special brand of insanity or
>>greed in these people.

<snip>

>>No one is better suited to investigating UFOs than scientists,
>>and, as a whole, no group has ever neglected the duty of their
>>chosen livelihoods more than scientists have in refusing to
>>treat such matters with an impartial investigation.

>Okay, now I'm scared. This is what they're teaching kids to do in
>college? Toss around generalizations like frisbees?

<snip>

You've misread him completely and missed his strong _defense_ of
scientific UFO investigation. Apparently you are so strongly
biased pro-ETH that you cannot see when someone uses the
technique of _disarming_ the skeptics first before making a case
_for_ the UFO. Even in the part you did quote (above) you ignore
his indictment of science for having "neglected the duty" of
conducting an "impartial" investigation of UFOs.

This is what partisan extremists do - they go on ideological
witchhunts searching and destroying anyone who betrays the
slightest deviation from the party line, or expresses anything
the slightest bit counter to a 100% pure propaganda position.

Aaron Sakulich had also said the following:

"Nonetheless, there are still a large number of cases that go
unsolved and uninvestigated. Scientists are squandering
opportunities to explore the unexplained, possibly discovering
new meteorological phenomena, new chemical or biological
phenomena (once, even swamp gas was not understood) or, at the
very least, a better understanding of the workings and
depravities of the human mind."

Apparently you are not satisfied with him accusing "Scientists
[of] squandering opportunities to explore the unexplained."


Brad Sparks








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   Sep > Sep 26

                 Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked -

From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 10:45:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:34:46 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked -


>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:38:35 EDT
>Subject: Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked

>>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:40:25 -0500
>>Subject: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked

>>Source: The Triangle - A Student Newspaper at
>>        Drexel University Philadelphia

>>http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/09/23/SciTech/Ufo->science.Investigations
.Debunked-729532.shtml

>>09-23-04

>>UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked
>>The Iron Skeptic
>>By Aaron Sakulich

>>If you're anything like I am, you would probably be overwhelmed
>>with disgust and outrage at seeing an article about UFOs in the
>>science and technology section of a newspaper. While on the one
>>hand the details of "Ufology" don't belong in any reputable
>>paper, a close look at the interaction between science and the
>>investigation of UFO claims is very enlightening.

><snip>

>>In the mid-fifties, "contactees" who claimed to have been
>>contacted by the crews of alien spaceships began to appear. It
>>is these people who turned investigations of UFOs into a circus
>>of insanity, and I think it fairly obvious that each and every
>>one of these people is suffering from a mental disorder of one
>>sort or another. But even here, scientists have a chance to
>>learn: A psychologist or sociologist could write a lifetime of
>>free meal tickets studying the special brand of insanity or
>>greed in these people.

><snip>

>Reminds me of how the CIA would try to recruit us in College.
>They would avoid all the black and hispanic kids and somehow
>some way find the most chemically dependent, fascist
>knuckleheads on campus.

>That was several years before Iran-Contra. It was funny watching
>their selectees years later at drug rehab facilities.

Greg Boone,

Obviously, the recruiters didn't have a clue. While one may
complement the other, the fact is book smart does not equal
street smart.


Gary Matteson








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                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:03:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:42:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Sandow


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:42:45 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>Thanks to all those that replied to my post - except for
>those that I couldn't understand - and to Errol for posting
>the NOVA transcript.

>I can confirm that this is the programme which I was
>referring to, having been searching for the video until 03:00
>this morning.

>The only significant difference that I have found is that the
>version broadcast in the UK was narrated by Stephen Greif.
>Here are the sections which I have the main issues with:

>JODY: I am a mother. I do not want to believe that my kids
>are being abducted. I'd rather believe that there's something
>wrong with my mind than to believe actually my kids are abducted.

>STEPHEN GREIF: Jody first began to fear for her son and
>daughter three years ago, after she read Hopkins'
>best-selling book, Intruders.

<snip>

There's lots to say in reply to Joe McGonagle, including thanks
for quoting the NOVA transcript at such length. McGonagle gets
lots of credit for presenting a very thorough account of what he
believes, and why he believes it.

But does he know that Budd long ago published a critique of the
NOVA episode? In a moment I'll quote what he said about the
interview with the child. But remember the questions I asked
earlier. How can anyone base any serious critique of his methods
on a few minutes shown on TV? How much of Budd's work with this
child and his parents did NOVA show? What did they leave out?
Did they present their excerpts from Budd's interviews, and from
their own interviews with the families, in their full, objective
context?

Budd thinks not. (I might add that I observed some of the
filming for the show, and talked at length to the producer as
she was filming, and after the show aired. I'd strong support
Budd's belief that she wasn't even remotely objective.)

Here's what Budd wrote about his interview with the child:


But even worse is the show's blatantly dishonest presentation of
a family case to which they devote a great deal of airtime. The
young mother of two small children had written a letter to me,
and with her permission I presented a copy of it to producer
Denise DiIanni of the NOVA staff.

In her letter the young woman said this about her abduction
experiences:"My memories are real and I have not had to use
hypnosis to remember them."

From a life-long series of encounters she records the following
details: "The 'little men' as I used to call them would enter my
bedroom from the same place in the wall... [They] were small,
had large heads with large dark eyes that seem to look right
through me."

Describing painful physical procedures, she added: "The tears
would roll down my cheeks into my ears, an uncomfortable
feeling. I was unable to wipe my tears away..."

She described the alien figures as moving in unison, and in another
encounter:

"being slowly lowered into my mattress, so slow that I would
think 'hurry up, I just want to feel my mattress under me and go
to sleep.'"

On another occasion she saw her brother being taken in broad
daylight: "He looked so tired and was slumped over... I remember
being very worried that he was too little to get into that
object in the sky."

In these accounts and in later, face-to-face interviews with the
NOVA crew present, she described many more experiences from
childhood to the present, all recollected without hypnosis.
What's more, her husband vividly described watching their little
son being floated out of the house by the aliens while he lay
paralyzed on the floor of their front hall. With NOVA's camera
recording it all, he lay down exactly where he remembered having
fallen and described where each alien had been standing. He
explained that the master bedroom was on the other side of the
wall he was leaning against.

Desperately trying to alert his sleeping wife, he showed us how
he tried in vain to move his leg enough to bang against the wall
to summon help. His testimony was the most vivid and important
of our visit to their home. It corroborated his wife's account
and explained their powerful fear for their children'ssafety.

But all of this eyewitness testimony and dramatic film footage
was suppressed by Nova. All of it.

In its place, producer DiIanni assembled an emasculated case in
which only the vaguest, most tenuous aspects of the family's
testimony were presented. Having thus suppressed all of the
strongest evidence,

NOVA went on to slander my view of the case's validity with the
following summary: "Budd Hopkins thinks this (portentous pause)
provides compelling evidence: children pausing at drawing,
dreams of strange events that feel real, and images of traumatic
sexual assault, remembered only under hypnosis!" (my emphasis)

Through 'creative editing' I'm portrayed as trying to ascribe an
abduction memory to an innocent child. In addition to the
anguished father's eye-witness account of laying paralyzed while
he watched the aliens taking his son out of the house, the
child's mother had included in her letter the following account
of what they went through when their boy was three-years old:

"My husband and I saw blinking lights in my sons bedroom... We
continue to have problems with our son at night... When his dad
gets him dressed in the morning he will ask questions (such as)
'How do they come through the walls? How do they park it there,
there's no road there...' He talks about tables with no legs,
'but those are the kind you don't eat on.' He tells me how
chilly it was outside last night."

There is, of course, much more, all of which was known to Ms.
DiIanni. But in her script I am portrayed as suspecting the
boy's possible abduction solely because of one piece of
evidence: A child " pausing at a drawing of an alien". As NOVA
well knows, no one on earth would ever describe that isolated,
ambiguous reaction as "compelling evidence" - unless their goal
was a conscious attempt to make the individual look like a fool.

And here's Budd's complete critique:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/sep/m26-008.shtml









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   Sep > Sep 26

                Mars Water Vvapour And Methane Concentrations

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 20:04:35 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:44:07 -0400
Subject: Mars Water Vvapour And Methane Concentrations


From: http://www.esa.int/esaCP/Pr_51_2004_p_EN.html

[extract follows]

# 51-2004: Water and methane maps overlap on Mars: a new clue?


20 September 2004

Recent analyses of ESA�s Mars Express data reveal that
concentrations of water vapour and methane in the atmosphere of
Mars significantly overlap. This result, from data obtained by
the Planetary Fourier Spectrometer (PFS), gives a boost to
understanding of geological and atmospheric processes on Mars,
and provides important new hints to evaluate the hypothesis of
present life on the Red Planet.

Related link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3577551.stm









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                Student Writes About Science & The Paranormal

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:03:18 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:52:52 -0400
Subject: Student Writes About Science & The Paranormal


This is an editorial written by a young man in his sophmore year
at college. It's well written and researched and is the kind of
work that shows how things should be done. None of the
condescending "Hey, I have critical thought so I can get a job
as a chimp in a government contract lab" nonsense.

Best,

Greg

-----

Source: The Chronicle OnLine -
        The Independant Daily At Duke University
        Durham, North Carolina

http://www.chronicle.duke.edu/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/09/23/4152b829f3ffc

09-23-04

Editorial: Columns


Things In Perspective

by Tony Manela

Around 900 B.C.E., a Greek shepherd named Magnus walked on
rocks that mysteriously plucked the iron nails from his sandals.
Three hundred years later, the philosopher Thales discovered that
amber, rubbed with cloth, inexplicably attracted feathers.

These two phenomena, with a few millennia of human curiosity and
ingenuity, eventually led to supercomputers, telecommunications
and innumerable other 'miracles' of technology that define our
society today. Imagine going back in time, demonstrating these
things to Thales and Magnus - showing them the tree that grew
from the seed they planted. Hopefully that thought will help put
things in perspective for what follows.

Science has changed a great deal in the last 2,600 years. Much
of the 'science' performed today is what philosopher of science
Thomas Kuhn would call 'normal science,' a process of puzzle-
solving. In a 'mature science,' like physics, most scientists
spend their careers basically confirming the underlying
assumptions that form the paradigm of the field. The vast
majority of scientists today don't look for, or expect to
discover, revolutionary new phenomena.

According to this view, only an infinitesimal fraction of those
practicing science in our age will become Newtons or Einsteins.
The rest will live out their careers unnoticed and not
remembered by history; Kuhn's term 'puzzle-solving' seems to
suggest that the work of such scientists has more in common with
completing a crossword puzzle than actually exploring nature.
While the role of such 'normal' scientists is necessary, it is
not at all glorious or even, arguably, meaningful.

Not all sciences, however, are mature ones. A prime example of a
burgeoning science is parapsychology (the study of the transfer
of information and energy through means inexplicable by
physics).

Duke University actually has a legacy in this field of which
most Duke students aren't aware. In 1927, a scientist named J.
B. Rhine joined the faculty and began studying 'the unexplained
powers of the mind.' He coined the term 'extrasensory
perception' (ESP). He revolutionized the field with his famous
card-reading experiments - controlled experiments held to the
most rigorous scientific standards. Basically, Rhine noticed a
phenomenon in nature, and began thoroughly exploring it.

Unfortunately, the Rhine Research Center (which used to be
located in the West Duke Building) is no longer affiliated with
the University. While parapsychology research was intriguing
when it first became prominent back in the 1920s and 1930s, it
quickly fell from grace in academia. In order to conduct
experiments in the field, scientists like Rhine needed the
approval of various University institutions (like Internal
Review Boards) in order to work with human subjects, get
funding, etc. Such institutions tend to be dominated by
practitioners of mature sciences.

I don't purport to be an expert in the sociology or philosophy
of science, but it seems to me that perhaps there was an element
of jealousy in the decision to exile parapsychology from
academia; perhaps the normal scientists who controlled the
powerful institutions in the University realized the momentum of
Rhine's work, and decided that if they couldn't shift or
establish a scientific paradigm, nobody could.

Why exactly does parapsychology have such a bad rep? I am not
talking about the 'study' of UFO's and Bigfoot sightings. I am
talking about the statistical analysis of data collected in
legitimate, controlled scientific experiments. Modern-day
parapsychology experiments involve electromagnetic shielding,
Random Event Generators based on quantum processes, computer-
randomized image selection and many other rigorous protocols
employed throughout the sciences.

They yield evidence that is extremely statistically significant
(evidence that wouldn't be questioned if it appeared in a
psychological or pharmacological context). They yield evidence
of a phenomenon in nature that cannot be explained away by our
current body of knowledge - a phenomenon for which there is not
yet a paradigm. This is the only reason why the field is
abhorred by the 'scientific community.'

Parapsychologists today find themselves in the same place as
Thales did 2,600 years ago, having just touched on something
strange and intriguing. They need the support of the rest of the
scientific community, not its spite and jealousy. After all,
look at all we've created on the basis of some magnetic rocks
and amber that attracted feathers. Imagine what technologies
could be brought about in the next 2,600 years if we had the
wisdom to recognize and cultivate burgeoning sciences.

The Rhine Research Center is still in operation today a mile off
campus. If you're interested in volunteering or learning more
about parapsychology and its history at Duke, visit:

www.rhine.org


Tony Manela is a Trinity sophomore.








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                           Rendlesham (Dis)Solved

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 19:25:49 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:58:52 -0400
Subject: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved


From: Jerry Goodenough <j.goodenough.nul>
  To: skeptic.nul
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 22:54:45 +0100
Subj: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved


The latest edition of 'The Skeptic' (despite the spelling it's
the UK publication I refer to, not to be confused with the
entirely different US publication) is a bumper issue with no
less than five articles on the resolution of the Rendlesham
Forest Incident, once dubbed Britain's Roswell.

Recent revelations make it clear that a good part of 'the
incident' was caused by an admitted hoaxer, using the multiple
lights of his police vehicle in the fog to produce some
interesting effects that had Rendlesham's USAF guards wandering
round in the forest looking for a UFO. Everything else was built
up on that through a whole series of errors, pointless secrecy,
the service unwillingness to indicate any problems (particularly
with a base full of US nuclear weapons on British soil),
diplomatic problems with armed American soldiery wandering round
off-base, and so on.

Among other things the articles put quite a dent in the
reputation of Nick Pope, once dubbed 'Britain's real-life Fox
Mulder'. Pope, the low-level civil servant whose investigative
paperwork at the time was quite objective, now -- after his
best--selling book 'Open Skies, Closed Minds' -- says still that
it was extraterrestrials with their flashing lights that landed
in Rendlesham Forest.

There are a lot of fascinating philosophical and psychological
conclusions to be drawn from the Rendlesham affair, about the
way people reach beliefs, the way that pre-existing attitudes
shape people's approaches to investigations, and so on. (Jenny
Randle's article here, from Britain's premier ufologist, makes
some splendid criticisms of the ufologist mind-set as well as of
knee-jerk scepticism.) And I think there are significant
parallels with what I have heard about Roswell.

Details of the magazine aren't yet up on the Skeptic's website:

http://www.skeptic.org.uk but will no doubt be there soon.

Devotees of fine detail can read the finally-released British
defence files on the 'incident' at:

http://www.mod.uk/linked_files/publications/foi/ufo/ufofilepart1.pdf

(part2.pdf, etc)

or catch something of the developments via another article
author, David Clarke, at his site:

http://www.flyingsaucery.com/Rendlesham/index.htm


Dr Jerry Goodenough
University of East Anglia
England







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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 23:00:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:04:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:22:15 +0100
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: Ryan S. Wood <majesticdocuments.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:30:10 -0700
>>Subject: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

<snip>

>Is there a single one of these "sensational and intriguing"
>documents that does come from an official source?

>If you claim the Cutler-Twining memo does, I would retort that
>enough suspicion and distrust has been attached to that since
>1987. To say nothing of an official 10-point disclaimer from the
>National Archives.

>In other words, it is not a case that many "are not from
>official sources", but that each & every one is from a NON-
>official source (and several are proven forgeries).

>Fortunately the great majority of ufologists, including those in
>this forum, keep well clear of these laughable bits of paper.
>And the more such documents mysteriously 'arrive', the more
>entertaining it gets.

I have a comment about the CT memo.

Although I have not spent a lot of time investigating the MJ-12
documents, I was one of the first to visit the archives to check
up on the Shandara/Moore report on their discovery of the CT
Memo. This was back in the "old days" at the old archives in
Washington, DC. back when you could go to the modern military
section and actually hold a document in your hands.

So I examined closely the CT memo. It is onion skin, with two
definite crease lines across as if it had been tri-folded at one
time. However the crease lines were pressed flat.

The most interesting thing to me, however, were the edges of the
paper. They were brownish. I concluded from looking at the edges
and the flat crease lines that the document had spent many years
in a stack of papers or whatever such that the edges were
exposed to the atmosphere but that most of the page was isolated
from the atmosphere by whatever was on top and below it.

The browning of the edges indicated to me that the document was
old... certainly not something that Moore or Shandara or some
hoaxer or some disinformationist had typed a few years or so
previous to my examination of it. I could well imagine it being
20-30 years-old.

Unfortunately, an actual test was never performed - but not for
lack of trying.

Back in 87 or 88(?)the Fund for UFO Research contacted a
document examiner in the DC area. Compare with the recent
docugate! He was willing to test the document for a mere $3,000
or so.

Unfortunately we could not get the document out of the archives.

In the previous year someone had been caught stealing documents
and selling them, so the Archive was quite sensitive to the loss
of documents. Even though the Archive's official position was
that they could not determine the origin of the CT- memo, they
would not let it be tested unless the test equipment could be
brought into the Archive. Of course, the document examiner
wasn't willing to do that.

Whether or not it would now be possible to carry out a test at
the modern archives, I don't know. However, those who are
seriously evaluating documents ought to try to arrange some test
for the CT memo.








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                          Re: New Orb Images - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 01:32:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:11:40 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - King


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:55:34 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>If one disconnects the photo image from the visual sighting then
>one would have an even more bizarre coincidence of a lens flare
>that happens to appear at the same time as a "red ball" and
>match what the witness says he saw when *not* looking through
>the camera lens.

Dr. Maccabee,

I would not say that what appears in the photo is a sphere, nor
would I say that it appears to be on fire. It appears to be a
hexagonal lens flare complimented by an additional flare in line
with where the sun would be to produce the highly lighted area
in the upper left.

While I am in no position in Houston Texas to determine whether
the sun is shining on the lens, I would say that the two lens
flares in the photo certainly appear to support the lens flare
idea. Your insistence on dismissing the greenish flare as a film
aberration is odd in that you ascribe anomalous traits to the
larger flare. Since the red flare in no way agrees with the
viewer's description of a spherical ball of fire, you are
contradictory to accept this flare as what he saw, while
discounting the other flare as a film aberration. This may be
convenient, but it is not scientific. It is pure conjecture...an
attempt to make the photographic evidence fit what the man says
he saw. If you dismiss the greenish flare as a film aberration,
you must accept the same possibility for the red flare, since it
is also not what the man described. Well, it is red.

Again, I am satisfied with what the photograph recorded. I am
still baffled however by the red ball of fire the man saw. While
you might describe this as a bizarre coincidence, I submit that
there are no coincidences, and suspect that the man saw the lens
flare, and on seeing the resulting photo, created the story to
make the image more compelling. I do not know this to be the
case, but it is as easy for me to conjecture this readily
believable scenario as to believe that he took a photo of a
spherical fireball which photographed as a hexagonal area of
light and a greenish complimentary one...just as a lens flare
would.

This photograph holds no mystery except to those who refuse to
see.

There are more compelling photos on which to wax photographic.
Next, please. :)


Respectfully,

Kyle









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                          Re: New Orb Images - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:05:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:13:29 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - King


>From: Barry Taylor <stingray.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 10:54:44 +1000
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>If we are going to explain this 'optical anomaly' to the people
>submitting the images to researchers for analysis and comment,
>we should at least show that a full scientific analysis was used
>to back-up out statements, not just a personal comment based on
>a series of set-up Orb photos that only proves that close to
>camera objects can be out of focus.

<snip>

Hi Barry,

I cannot disagree that someone wanting an explanation for an odd
photo deserves a straight-faced answer, and an understanding of
the reaction such odd photo effects elicit.

What is important is that before you suggest that someone has
taken a photo of a true phenomenon, you temper the suggestion
with a suitable proviso... that it might be nothing unusual.

You tend to sensationalize without this needed proviso.

Your best direction as a serious investigator is to assume
mundanity. Then follow the science. Otherwise, you will cherry-
pick the facts that fit your premature conclusion.

I have spent the past week taking photographs of various areas
of my house. I have photos of several "orbs". One even seems to
have a face peering out at me. :)

Your 3-D idea sounds god, but keep a few things in mind...

a dust particle has to be a few inches from the lens to catch
the light of the flash, which is what causes the flaring that
makes an orb.

Small, cheap digital cameras typically will not focus on
something inches from the lens, and even then typically have to
have a special setting enabled. Also, the extremely small lenses
on most modern digital cameras are very susceptible to dust. The
surface area of these lenses is extremely small, and they are
extremely difficult to clean.

Read up on focal length and focus and depth of field. You are
mistaken on several points in your post. Focal distance (as
opposed to focal length) plays an important part in your
statements, yet you make no reference to it. You make statements
like "close to the lens" without quantifying what you mean. This
is critical, as dust specks are typically from 0-8 inches from
the lens to make a good "orb" based on my attempts to photograph
them. Even a very good digital camera will not focus to 8 inches
without enabling a macro mode. This information is readily
available, and does not require a scientist.

A camera cannot focus on a speck of dust. A speck of dust in
focus is invisible. The effects you call orbs cannot be focused
upon. The fact that they are too close to focus on is why they
appear as they do, along with the bright light of the flash.

When you take a 3-D photo, you get two perspectives in one shot.
If a dust-speck appears in one, it may or may not appear in the
other, depending on very slight variations in reflectivity, and
the absolute position of the dust speck.

If you get a photo with an "orb" in each perspective shot, any
measurements you make will be erroneous, since you are not
photographing an actual object, but a light flare from a tiny
object.

My best rebuttal to orbs is this...there must be sunlight, a
flash or some other source of light, along with a recording
device, to see an orb. A true object in 3D would not require
such conditions. If you disagree with this statement, please
explain why orbs are not photographed in the absence of a strong
light source...  sun or flash?


Best Regards,

Kyle








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                        Re: Hopkins' Technique - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:30:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:15:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - King


>From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:05:29 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

<snip>

>This is absolutely not the way to interview children, ever.
>
>Children in strange situations will try to learn what they are
>suposed to do in those situations, and a large part of that
>involves looking for clues about appropriate social behavior
>from the adults around them. This learning process is part of
>what being a child is all about.

>A researcher, therapist or interviewer who isn't aware of this,
>and who doesn't control their interactions with the child
>accordingly, will end up getting nonsense out of the interview.


Cathy,

I have great respect for Budd Hopkins as a serious researcher
honestly trying to help people. That said, I fully agree with
you where children are concerned.

A child's desire for acceptance and eagerness to please are
indeed a part of normal development. A researcher who does not
have a complete grasp of this, and the techniques needed to
avoid suggestion, does a disservice to his subject.

Additionally, a researcher who accepts as truth the testimony of
a traumatized child under dubious analytical conditions does a
disservice to himself and to his field.

I think a similar sentiment is plausible for adults under
similar circumstances. Traumatized adults also seek an answer,
and like children, are overly vulnerable to a seemingly tidy
explanation, and are more susceptible to suggestion as a result.

This doesn't discount the experiences of abductees, but rather
the methods used to confirm or discount them...the same
suggestibility works for the researcher trying to discount the
abduction hypothesis. If his beliefs or desires are in any way
telegraphed to the subject (mindful that a traumatized person
would be much more watchful and perceptive of intent) ...game
over.

The human mind requires great care to coax it into divulging its
truths. A traumatized mind requires kid gloves and a full set of
tools just to prevent further harm.

Rush not in, therefore.


Brava,

Kyle








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             Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 07:36:52 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:19:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -


>From: Mike Christman <mschristman.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:21:19 +0200
>Subject: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>Cosmic Curiosity: Naval History Magazine Reports on August, 1952 Incident

<snip>


Hello Mike:


That's a real goodie! I had the case listed, based on Richard
Haines' Project Delta book and the Don Berliner catalog, but
this has much more detail.

The only things missing are the date (29 AUG 1953) and possibly
the time of day. The sun would be up 24 hours that far north in
August of course, so its a daylight sighting regardless.

I saved your entire message as a file here in case I need to
refer to it again. I too would like to see any reactions from
the naval people who read the article. Maybe one or two might
come forward with their own anomalous accounts.


Best wishes

- Larry








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                          Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Koch

From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 13:09:51 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:23:03 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Koch


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 16:49:19 -0700
>Subject: UFOs + ECHELON

>The tricky subject of UFOs has been raised in the European
>Parliament for the first time since the Belgian "flying
>triangle" flap a decade ago.

>European Voice:

>http://www.european-voice.com/

Hello List,

I found these two articles in the archive of the European Voice:


"Witnesses provide foundation for existence of aliens
Vol. 10 No. 12 - 1 April 2004

The recent article by James Drew, Scepticism set to scupper any
chance of Union-led UFO research (European Voice, 18-24 March)
was very good."


"Scepticism set to scupper any chance of Union-led UFO
research

Vol. 10 No. 10 - 18 March 2004

Are we alone in the universe? If not, are we being visited
by our intergalactic neighbours? Such questions, normally
pondered following an excellent supper, when port and
cigars are handed out and thoughts turn to philosophical
matters, have once again appeared on the European
Parliaments radar screen."


But I could not get access to the texts because they want 12
British Pounds for three articles. If no one else has access to
these articles, I would offer to pay the money and provide the
texts to you.


Joachim

----------------------------
http://www.kochkyborg.de
----------------------------








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                     Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:02:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 07:39:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved - Colvin

-----

Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 04:52:57 -0000
From: poetdreamerscholar.nul
  To: fort.nul
Subj: [fort] Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved


I'd find this much easier to accept if it weren't for two
things:

1. I'm always highly suspicious of "confessions" which come two
decades after the fact; and

2. The same Skeptics who now tell us that Rendlesham was a
purposely-created hoax (based on the testimony of a solitary
witness) spent that intervening 20 years insisting that the
Rendlesham UFO was actually nothing more that the bright
illumination from a marine lighthouse shimmering through
Rendlesmam Forest.

Have you ever noticed that single-witness testimonies are never
good enough to establish the existence of anything, but are
perfectly sufficent for debunking?


Sincerely,

George Wagner
gwagneroldtimeradio.nul








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                     Re: Magonia Supplement 52 - Harney

From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 17:35:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 07:53:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement 52 - Harney


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 07:44:16 -0700
>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement 52

>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:11:52 +0100
>>Subject: Magonia Supplement 52

>>Because of technical problems with the html edition of Magonia
>>Supplement No. 52 there has been some delay in putting it on
>>line. It is now available on the Magonia Extra web site -

>>http://magonia.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk

>Hello:

>Can you provide a direct URL to the page you mention? Time is
>limited here, and I cannot search your entire site.

If you click on the URL I gave then you should get the home
page. You should then click on "Magonia Supplement No. 52" which
is on the left near the bottom of the page. Or try:

http://magonia.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ms52.htm


John Harney








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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:42:06 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 07:55:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 23:00:21 -0400
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:22:15 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>>From: Ryan S. Wood <majesticdocuments.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:30:10 -0700
>>>Subject: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

<snip>

>>Is there a single one of these "sensational and intriguing"
>>documents that does come from an official source?

>>If you claim the Cutler-Twining memo does, I would retort that
>>enough suspicion and distrust has been attached to that since
>>1987. To say nothing of an official 10-point disclaimer from the
>>National Archives.

>>In other words, it is not a case that many "are not from
>>official sources", but that each & every one is from a NON-
>>official source (and several are proven forgeries).

>>Fortunately the great majority of ufologists, including those in
>>this forum, keep well clear of these laughable bits of paper.
>>And the more such documents mysteriously 'arrive', the more
>>entertaining it gets.

>I have a comment about the CT memo.

>Although I have not spent a lot of time investigating the MJ-12
>documents, I was one of the first to visit the archives to check
>up on the Shandara/Moore report on their discovery of the CT
>Memo. This was back in the "old days" at the old archives in
>Washington, DC. back when you could go to the modern military
>section and actually hold a document in your hands.

>So I examined closely the CT memo. It is onion skin, with two
>definite crease lines across as if it had been tri-folded at one
>time. However the crease lines were pressed flat.

I recall you telling me that back in the 80's. But the
horizontal triple folds are just what a hoaxer might do to
smuggle a fake CT Memo into the Archives folded like a letter in
his jacket or coat.

>The most interesting thing to me, however, were the edges of the
>paper. They were brownish. I concluded from looking at the edges
>and the flat crease lines that the document had spent many years
>in a stack of papers or whatever such that the edges were
>exposed to the atmosphere but that most of the page was isolated
>from the atmosphere by whatever was on top and below it.

>The browning of the edges indicated to me that the document was
>old... certainly not something that Moore or Shandara or some
>hoaxer or some disinformationist had typed a few years or so
>previous to my examination of it. I could well imagine it being
>20-30 years-old.

Larry Bland of the George C. Marshall Institute has said that
old stationery and typewriters from that era are available for
hoaxing. A 30-year-old 1950's era blank sheet of stationery in a
stack of sheets with browned edges could have been typed on by a
hoaxer in 1984-5 (using a normal sheet and carbon paper over the
onionskin of course) with an appropriate old era government
typewriter. In fact one would not even need to find a stack of
unused old government stationery somewhere. I have _many_ times
found single unused sheets of blank stationery nestled in among
used-sheets of documents in various archives ("many" meaning say
one sheet per several thousand pages of documents).

Then the AF agent or the DIA-SAC Colonel known to have been
involved in MJ-12 could have smuggled the sheet into the
Archives, then planted the location clues using the "Ethiopian
postcard" that was sent so that the planted document could be
"found." As for the creases, once they were noticed surely the
hoaxer would have tried to flatten them out using a fingernail
in the Archives as this would be much too suspicious since the
"original" carbon copy in the "NSC" (as it was meant to be by
forged imitation) would always have been flat in a file folder
and never folded as if sent in the mail in an envelope. Then
the hoaxer would have made sure the flimsy onionskin sheet was
flattened further between heavy stacks of normal weight paper in
the file box it was found in so that it would have months of
paper-flattening pressure before being "found".








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             Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:55:40 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 07:57:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread - Sparks


>From: Xxx Xxx <xxx.nul>
>To: sdi.nul
>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 12:47:42 -0400
>Subject: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread


>Hi, Errol, et al,

>There is presently a tremendously irritating thread on UFO
>UpDates that reoccurs once every two or three years. The thread
>involves Budd Hopkins. In general, the theme of the thread
>condemns Budd's hypnosis techniques, and in specific, an
>accusation that Budd leads witnesses - especially children.
>You'd think someone making a charge like this would have some
>special knowledge of Budd's methods, but these claims are made
>by people who have no experience in hypnosis, and who are making
>the claim on the basis of incomplete and out of context excerpts
>from notoriously non-factual television specials. Is this an
>example of their brand of research?

>The present thread was started by someone who cited his 'memory'
>of an excerpt from a show _he_ admittedly hadn't even seen in
>years. The thread has now degenerated into participants nodding
>in agreement about how bad it is to lead children into
>frightening and potentially damaging belief structures.

But the _transcript_ has now been presented and it does show
that Joe M's memory was correct.

>Yes, I think we all agree its bad to lead any witness, most
>especially children. The irritation comes from the fact that
>there is no basis for this contention. Budd simply doesn't do
>it.

The _transcript_ shows that he does "do it".  Are you saying it
was just a one-time slipup pounced on by NOVA's hostile
producers to embarrass him, and that 99% of the time he does not
lead witnesses, especially highly suggestible young children?


Brad Sparks
(not anonymous)








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                     Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 20:18:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 07:58:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - McGonagle


Hi Greg, List,

>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:03:06 -0400
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:42:45 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

<snip>

>There's lots to say in reply to Joe McGonagle, including thanks
>for quoting the NOVA transcript at such length. McGonagle gets
>lots of credit for presenting a very thorough account of what he
>believes, and why he believes it.

>But does he know that Budd long ago published a critique of the
>NOVA episode? In a moment I'll quote what he said about the
>interview with the child. But remember the questions I asked
>earlier. How can anyone base any serious critique of his methods
>on a few minutes shown on TV? How much of Budd's work with this
>child and his parents did NOVA show? What did they leave out?
>Did they present their excerpts from Budd's interviews, and from
>their own interviews with the families, in their full, objective
>context?

Thanks for the positive comments, Greg. I had read this before,
and recently re-read it. Budd does make valid points about the
objectivity of the producer, but the segments which I am
critical off do not depend on the editing - I have deliberately
avoided criticising segments which I consider questionable, but
depend to a large extent on what what was not in the programme.

>Budd thinks not. (I might add that I observed some of the
>filming for the show, and talked at length to the producer as
>she was filming, and after the show aired. I'd strong support
>Budd's belief that she wasn't even remotely objective.)
>
>Here's what Budd wrote about his interview with the child:

>But even worse is the show's blatantly dishonest presentation of
>a family case to which they devote a great deal of airtime. The
>young mother of two small children had written a letter to me,
>and with her permission I presented a copy of it to producer
>Denise DiIanni of the NOVA staff.

>In her letter the young woman said this about her abduction
>experiences:"My memories are real and I have not had to use
>hypnosis to remember them."

However, the memories appear to have come to the surface _after_
reading "Intruders". It appears from the programme that prior to
reading this, she did not associate her experiences with "Alien
abduction", and had not sought any form of counselling for the
experiences. This strikes me as odd, and raises concerns that the
recall of the experiences were influenced by the book. This in
itself should have rang alarm bells for Hopkins.

>From a life-long series of encounters she records the following
>details: "The 'little men' as I used to call them would enter my
>bedroom from the same place in the wall... [They] were small,
>had large heads with large dark eyes that seem to look right
>through me."

Hopkins' rebuttal goes on to deal with the editing of segments,
and criticism of comments made on-film by sceptical
commentators. The major point in which I am in agreement with
him is that the husband's material was totally excluded.
However, the inclusion or exclusion of this material did not
effect the actual flaws in his interview technique which I
pointed out earlier, flaws which he does not refer to at all in
his rebuttal (presumably, he didn't recognise them as flaws, and
nobody pointed them out to him?).

To the anonymous poster complaining about my remarks, I suggest
that you seek a professional medical opinion before placing the
mental welfare of your child in the hands of an amateur. If you
fail to do that, it could be viewed as child neglect. Also,
examine closely my last post pointing out specific examples of
what I consider bad about Hopkin's handling of that particular
case, and challenge me on those - I think you will realise that
I am right in this case.


Regards,

Joe








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                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 18:42:18 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:01:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Ledger


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:30:19 -0500
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:05:29 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

<snip>

>>This is absolutely not the way to interview children, ever.

>I have great respect for Budd Hopkins as a serious researcher
>honestly trying to help people. That said, I fully agree with
>you where children are concerned.

<snip>

Just curious, Kyle. On what information are you and Cathy basing
how you deem Budd Hopkins is interviewing these children?


Don Ledger








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                  Flying Saucers And Four Guys Named George

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:46:46 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:02:43 -0400
Subject: Flying Saucers And Four Guys Named George


Greetings to the Listarians,

For those who are collecting the Audio History of Ufology
Series your requests and pleads for the Contactees have been
heard. Volume 6 is now available and titled:

"Flying Saucers and Four Guys Named George: Adamski, Van Tassel,
Williamson and King"

25 recordings totaling 16.5 hours of MP3 covering 1953 to 1964.
Interviews, lectures and even channeling of the Council of the
Seven Lights for you Van Tassel lovers. If you are into Adamski,
you'll find the most complete audio history available with many
never known to exist until now.

George Hunt Williamson your bag? How about curling up to hear
the Story of Maldek. If you like lectures and interviews of him,
they're on the disc too.

Ever heard the Cosmic Master Aetherius? George King channels him
from the Interplanetary Parliment and astounds you with a
private lecture dealing with the Space People and their
satellite.

A $25 donation to the preservation effort is requested. You can
Pay Pal using my email address or send your donation to:

Wendy Connors
P.O. Box 8552
Albuquerque, NM 87198

As always, your donation includes postage to anywhere in the
world.

Get 'em while they're hot! <G> Also available is Volume 5,
"ETH: Dr. James E. McDonald," for a $20.00 USD donation.

Wendy Connors
www.fadeddiscs.com








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                        Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 23:10:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:05:26 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - Maccabee


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 01:32:42 -0500
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:55:34 -0400
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

<snip>

>>If one disconnects the photo image from the visual sighting then
>>one would have an even more bizarre coincidence of a lens flare
>>that happens to appear at the same time as a "red ball" and
>>match what the witness says he saw when *not* looking through
>>the camera lens.

<snip>

>Again, I am satisfied with what the photograph recorded. I am
>still baffled however by the red ball of fire the man saw. While
>you might describe this as a bizarre coincidence, I submit that
>there are no coincidences, and suspect that the man saw the lens
>lare, and on seeing the resulting photo, created the story to
>make the image more compelling. I do not know this to be the
>case, but it is as easy for me to conjecture this readily
>believable scenario as to believe that he took a photo of a
>spherical fireball which photographed as a hexagonal area of
>light and a greenish complimentary one...just as a lens flare
>would.

>This photograph holds no mystery except to those who refuse to
>see.

>There are more compelling photos on which to wax photographic.
>Next, please. :)

Yes, there are other photographs which are more useful from the
UFO point of view.

In this case, however, your conclusion that the red image is a
lens flare and does not match the witness' description leads you
to the hoax hypothesis as the explanation for the reported
visual sighting.

If there were any other evidence pointing toward a hoax I might
agree.

You can see the initial arguments on my web site which
indirectly relate to the hoax hypothesis. Lacking any such
evidence I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this
case.








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                                CI: New Posts

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 22:11:32 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:06:28 -0400
Subject: CI: New Posts


I've added some commentary on the ongoing Martian
biochemical controversy to the Cydonian Imperative
blog:

http://cydonianimperative.blogspot.com

The case for life on Mars appears to have reached an all-time
evidential high. Repeated observations (and the verification of
ammonia in the Martian atmosphere) could have far-reaching
ramifications for JPL's current geology-driven Mars exploration
program, and I look forward to further developments.

Mac Tonnies
http://www.mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot*yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com

New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X








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                         Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Chace

From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 23:21:53 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:07:42 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON - Chace


>From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 13:09:51 +0100
>Subject: Re: UFOs + ECHELON

>"Scepticism set to scupper any chance of Union-led UFO
>research"

>Vol. 10 No. 10 - 18 March 2004

>Are we alone in the universe? If not, are we being visited
>by our intergalactic neighbours? Such questions, normally
>pondered following an excellent supper, when port and
>cigars are handed out and thoughts turn to philosophical
>matters, have once again appeared on the European
>Parliaments radar screen."

The European Voice writer who wrote the above has applied the
term "intergalactic" without, apparently, understanding its
meaning. Or perhaps he or she did it because it has simply
become a space age equivalent of the word "grandiose." The more
appropriate term to have used would be "galactic" or
"interstellar" as these refer to travel within a galaxy, whereas
intergalactic refers to travel between galaxies. Intergalactic
either presupposes faster than light travel, or extremely
patient aliens, as galaxies tend to be millions of light-years
apart. Like Stanton Friedman I often get a little annoyed when I
see people needlessly introducing the term "intergalactic" into
discussion of extraterrestrial visitation.

Thus far, George Lucas has managed to keep the term out of his
Star Wars films, for purposes of consistency, since these films
are about a multi-stellar or galactic civilization, and
intergalactic travel plays no role in them.

Incidentally, on of my key criticisms of Carol Rainey's portion
of the book "Sight Unseen" that she co-wrote with Budd Hopkins
is her needless use of the term "intergalactic." The other major
criticism involves some of her discussion of the mechanisms by
which optical invisibility might be achieved, but that's a
subject for another time.

The word "scupper" is one that I don't recall seeing before
(maybe it's a British thing), so I looked it up. The dictionary
says it means to wreck or ruin something, which could have been
inferred from the context of its use.

I also wonder if skepticism is really what's responsible for the
scuppering or if it's really just the "giggle factor."


David W. Chace








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                      Re: Magonia Supplement 52 - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 05:11:49 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:18:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement 52 - Hatch


>From: John Harney <magonia.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 17:35:21 +0100
>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement 52

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 07:44:16 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement 52

>>Can you provide a direct URL to the page you mention? Time is
>>limited here, and I cannot search your entire site.

>If you click on the URL I gave then you should get the home
>page. You should then click on "Magonia Supplement No. 52" which
>is on the left near the bottom of the page. Or try:

>http://magonia.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ms52.htm


Thanks John.

The link at bottom is what I wanted.


 - LH











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                           Fostoria UFO Sightings?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:57:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:57:39 -0400
Subject: Fostoria UFO Sightings?




Source: The Ohio News Network

http://www.onnnews.com/Global/story.asp?S=2346688

09-24-04

Fostoria
UFO Sightings?

by Rob Packard


Strange unidentified objects hovering in the skies of Northwest
Ohio. Some objects were caught on tape in Fostoria. It's no
science fiction film. It's a story you'll only see on NBC 24.

We decided to research the issue, after several people called
our newsroom Friday morning reporting unusual sightings this
week in the skies around Fostoria.

We did some research, took a trip and found a man who's been
investigating them for years. Frozen on videotape- shots of disk
like objects recorded by George Ritter.

In one case a glowing object darts through the sky.

Ritter makes it a point to roll tape daily on the skies over his
backyard. Over the past six years he's stockpiled a collection
of more than 400 video tapes containing 856 hours of raw
footage. Some of the suspicious objects were caught on tape just
this week.

"(I've captured footage) of UFOs hundreds and hundreds of times.
There's something going on in Ohio that nobody's figured out
yet," Ritter told NBC 24 news.

We called Fostoria Police and talked with a patrol officer who
says the last official report of a UFO in their area was a few
years ago.


Copyright 2004 WNWO-TV, a Raycom Media station.  Associated
Press may have contributed to this report. All rights reserved.
This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
redistributed.


[UFO UpDates thanks http://www.anomalist.com & Richard Hendricks
 for the lead]








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                   Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:30:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:01:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved - McGonagle


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:02:47 -0700
>Subject: Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved

>-----

>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 04:52:57 -0000
>From: poetdreamerscholar.nul
>To: fort.nul
>Subj: [fort] Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved

>I'd find this much easier to accept if it weren't for two
>things:

<snip>

Hello List,

I find myself in agreement with George here. I haven't got
around to fully examining the events connected with Rendlesham,
though I have visited the location on at least four occasions,
twice on my own at night (to capture the atmosphere of the
actual event under similar circumstances). The guy that
disclosed his hoaxing activity has not actaully said the he was
personally present at the incident, but that someone else might
have carried out a similar hoax (I gather that it was a fairly
frequent occurence, though I am surprised that if that is the
case, it has taken so long to come to light).

There certainly is a lot of hype involved, for example, the
reported radiation readings and their significance. The
lighthouse has changed over the years, so it is difficult to
judge how visible or otherwise it was at the time. Currently, it
is difficult to spot, and is only visible from very small areas
of the forest. It might have played a part, but my feeling is
that it did not cause the initial sighting.

None of this is to say that I think the cause was supernatural -
 there are a number of other explanations possible, my current
favourite is that it was caused by the re-entry of a KH-9 film
container. That scenario would certainly account for all the
secrecy, and succeeding events could have been deliberatley
staged to cover the real cause. There was an excellent site at:

http://www.kca07.dial.pipex.com/theory.htm

which has "mysteriously" vanished, but my previous post at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/oct/m25-017.shtml

expands on my thoughts about this.


Regards,

Joe








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             Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:27:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:03:43 -0400
Subject: Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest Argentina



INEXPLICATA
The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
September 27, 2004

Source: Las Ultimas Noticias (LUN)
Date: September 26, 2004

Talk of tornadoes, fallen satellites and saucer crashes
Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest

Sunday, September 26, 2004

The forest woke up on the ground. That simple, that strange. All
of the trees occupying a space equivalent to a city block in
that forest near Ushuaia had been uprooted, piled from north to
south as if pointing toward the same location. Of course,
speculation on what could have caused the strange phenomenon
commenced immediately, according to INFOBAE.com

According to the first explorers to reach the site, it seemed as
if an aircraft had collided, with the exception that there was
no fuselage lost among the branches. Locals told of having seen
fireballs plunging from the sky days earlier, which - according
to them - could have been the answer to the mystery. But none of
the trees is burned.

In the northern part of the now-mysterious site, the tree trunks
had been severed at a height of six to seven meters, which
validated for several witnesses the theory that the impact  had
been something - meteorite, UFO, satellite - falling from the
sky.

The Centro Austral de Investigaciones Cientificas tried to
appease the excitement saying it could have been a volteo
(overturning), in other words, "a kind of tornado that uproots
trees," according to the explanation given by Rogelio Acevedo.
But Acevedo acknowledged that research must go on, since the
winds in the area weren't strong enough to uproot the trees.


Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales IHU
Special thanks to Guillermo Gimenez, Planeta UFO








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                     Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules

From: Joel Carpenter <crediblesport.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:28:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:15:00 -0400
Subject: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules


Of possible interest to List members.

http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0409/27bigelow/

best -


Joel Carpenter









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                        Re: Hopkins' Technique - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:23:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:24:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - King


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 18:42:18 -0300
>ubject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:30:19 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>>From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:05:29 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

><snip>

>>>This is absolutely not the way to interview children, ever.

>>I have great respect for Budd Hopkins as a serious researcher
>>honestly trying to help people. That said, I fully agree with
>>you where children are concerned.

><snip>

>Just curious, Kyle. On what information are you and Cathy basing
>how you deem Budd Hopkins is interviewing these children?


Hi Don,

As I said, I agree with Cathy where children are concerned. I am
not in a position to question Budd Hopkins' techniques, as I've
never seen him in person in a session. My comments were pointed
at any researcher who attempts to plumb the depths of the human
mind, as my post indicated. I think I noted the risks on both
sides of the abduction riddle. Pro or con.

I suppose I was just revealing my general mistrust of people who
tinker with the mind while possessing a fully imperfect human
mind of their own. Dangerous stuff in my view.

Nothing more than that. Cathy will have to explain her comments,
as we just _met_. :)


Regards,

Kyle








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   Sep > Sep 28

                          Re: New Orb Images - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:43:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:15:37 -0400
Subject: Re: New Orb Images - King


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 23:10:45 -0400
>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 01:32:42 -0500
>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:55:34 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: New Orb Images

><snip>

>>>If one disconnects the photo image from the visual sighting then
>>>one would have an even more bizarre coincidence of a lens flare
>>>that happens to appear at the same time as a "red ball" and
>>>match what the witness says he saw when *not* looking through
>>>the camera lens.

>>Again, I am satisfied with what the photograph recorded. I am
>>still baffled however by the red ball of fire the man saw. While
>>you might describe this as a bizarre coincidence, I submit that
>>there are no coincidences, and suspect that the man saw the lens
>>lare, and on seeing the resulting photo, created the story to
>>make the image more compelling. I do not know this to be the
>>case, but it is as easy for me to conjecture this readily
>>believable scenario as to believe that he took a photo of a
>>spherical fireball which photographed as a hexagonal area of
>>light and a greenish complimentary one...just as a lens flare
>>would.

>>This photograph holds no mystery except to those who refuse to
>>see.

>>There are more compelling photos on which to wax photographic.
>>Next, please. :)

>Yes, there are other photographs which are more useful from the
>UFO point of view.

>In this case, however, your conclusion that the red image is a
>lens flare and does not match the witness' description leads you
>to the hoax hypothesis as the explanation for the reported
>visual sighting.

>If there were any other evidence pointing toward a hoax I might
>agree.

>You can see the initial arguments on my web site which
>indirectly relate to the hoax hypothesis. Lacking any such
>evidence I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this
>case.

Hi Dr. Maccabee,

Perhaps it is so, and we are stuck to our sides of the fence. I
have not concluded a hoax, however. I simply stated that as a
conjecture equally compelling to your own conjecture.

The man says he saw an almost perfect sphere. The photo does not
in any way depict a sphere...perfect or otherwise.

The man says the sphere was on fire. The object in the photo
does not exhibit any hint of fire... no light distortion above,
no flame licking away from a hot, fiery center.

The man did not describe seeing a hexagonal red glowing area of
red light. Yet that is what his photograph depicts.

Based on what the man described, the photo is of something very
different. I'm simply reading what he said, and looking at what
he photographed.

I offered my conjecture of a hoax only as a rebuttal of your
conjecture that seeing one thing and photographing another
constitutes a bizarre coincidence. What he photographed is not
bizarre at all, but what he described is very bizarre indeed.

I think both conjectures are lacking.

What is not lacking is the great difference between what he says
he saw and what he photographed...aside from the color red.

Your bizarre coincidence conjecture is no more compelling than
my hoax conjecture. This is where we actually agree. To make
this case tidy, conjecture is required. That makes the case very
weak in my view. Perhaps this is where we differ.

Best Regards,

Kyle








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                29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:16:59 +0200 (CEST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:19:11 -0400
Subject: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


Please find enclosed some recent news from Dr Claude Poher,
<Claude.Poher.nul>

-----

To all, hello!

You may be interested to know that I got photos of the oils
flames from the gulf of Mexico platforms confirming the
interpretation of the Flir camera video made from an aicraft of
the Mexican Air Force on March 5, 2004. For more details, see:

http://www.universons.com

in index #6.

The most interesting picture is included down here with its
counterpart from the Flir video (see note below).


Sincerely

Claude POHER
25 September 2004

-----


Regards,

V-J










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             Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:18:06 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:24:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread - Ledger


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:55:40 EDT
>Subject: Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread

>>From: Xxx Xxx <xxx.nul>
>>To: sdi.nul
>>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 12:47:42 -0400
>>Subject: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread


>>There is presently a tremendously irritating thread on UFO UpDates
>>that reoccurs once every two or three years. The thread involves
>>Budd Hopkins. In general, the theme of the thread condemns Budd's
>>hypnosis techniques, and in specific, an accusation that Budd
>>leads witnesses - especially children. You'd think someone making
>>a charge like this would have some special knowledge of Budd's
>>methods, but these claims are made by people who have no
>>experience in hypnosis, and who are making the claim on the basis
>>of incomplete and out of context excerpts
>>from notoriously non-factual television specials. Is this an
>>example of their brand of research?

>>The present thread was started by someone who cited his
>>'memory' of an excerpt from a show _he_ admittedly hadn't even
>>seen in years. The thread has now degenerated into participants
>>nodding in agreement about how bad it is to lead children into
>>frightening and potentially damaging belief structures.

>But the _transcript_ has now been presented and it does show
>that Joe M's memory was correct.

>>Yes, I think we all agree its bad to lead any witness, most
>>especially children. The irritation comes from the fact that
>>there is no basis for this contention. Budd simply doesn't do
>>it.

>The _transcript_ shows that he does "do it".  Are you saying it
>was just a one-time slipup pounced on by NOVA's hostile
>producers to embarrass him, and that 99% of the time he does not
>lead witnesses, especially highly suggestible young children?

>Brad Sparks (not anonymous)

You don't get to see the real transcripts, Brad. Just the
transcript of the finished product. There are hours of
transcripts from which the director pastes together the final
edit utilizing a shot-list. The producers/director/editors of
any NOVA program never err. Whatever the end product, it is
deliberate.


Don Ledger









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                          Secrecy News -- 09/27/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:22:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:28:27 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 09/27/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 84
September 27, 2004


**      INTELLIGENCE REFORM LEGISLATION ADVANCES
**      INADVERTENT DISCLOSURES OF CLASSIFIED INFORMATION
**      NEW FRUS VOLUME ON SOUTH, CENTRAL AMERICA


INTELLIGENCE REFORM LEGISLATION ADVANCES

Competing versions of legislation on intelligence reform have
been introduced in the House and Senate and will be considered
this week.

The Senate bill (S. 2845) hews fairly closely to the
recommendations of the 9/11 Commission (including intelligence
budget disclosure) and was crafted on a bipartisan basis.  The
text is here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/09/s2845.html

The House bill (H.R. 10), in contrast, includes numerous
controversial provisions to expand law enforcement authority and
its authors excluded participation by House Democrats.  That
bill is here (1 MB PDF file):

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/09/hr10.pdf

The House bill was informed in part by a September 16 White
House draft bill.  Among other notable features, that draft
included a new Freedom of Information Act exemption for
"operational files" of the new National Intelligence Director
(at pp. 16-17).  But the proposed FOIA exemption has not been
included so far in the House or Senate bills.  See the September
16 White House draft bill here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/09/wh091604.pdf


INADVERTENT DISCLOSURES OF CLASSIFIED INFORMATION

Having examined some 1.3 million pages of declassified documents
at the National Archives, reviewers identified 356 pages of
classified nuclear weapons-related information that should not
have been disclosed, the Department of Energy said in a newly
disclosed periodic report to Congress.

As in the past, the most frequently reported category of
inadvertently disclosed information concerned historical
information regarding nuclear weapons storage locations abroad.

The Fourteenth Report on Inadvertent Releases of Restricted Data
and Formerly Restricted Data was transmitted to Congress on a
classified basis in March 2004.  An unclassified version was
released last week. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/inadvertent14.pdf


NEW FRUS VOLUME ON SOUTH, CENTRAL AMERICA

U.S. foreign policy towards South and Central America during the
tumultuous years 1964-1968 is documented in a new volume of the
official State Department series Foreign Relations of the United
States (FRUS).

"Many of the [records] document the Johnson administration's
responses to a series of crises: the 1964 Panama Canal flag
incident; the 1964 coup d'etat in Brazil; the 1964 presidential
election in Chile; the 1966 coup in Argentina; the 1967 hunt for
Ernesto 'Che' Guevara in Bolivia; the 1968 coups in Peru and
Panama" and more, according to a State Department press release.

The full text of the new volume is available here:

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/johnsonlb/xxxi/index.htm

In a news release welcoming publication of the FRUS volume, the
National Security Archive noted that it disclosed for the first
time official documents on political intervention by the CIA in
the 1964 election in Chile:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20040925/index.htm


_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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               Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:32:02 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:30:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - Ledger


>From: Joel Carpenter <crediblesport.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:28:51 -0400
>Subject: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules

>Of possible interest to List members.

>http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0409/27bigelow/


Hi Joel,

These have been around for some time - or at least the design
andengineering has. They were originally called "Habitats". It
wasn't easy gaining acceptance for these lighter, tougher safer
modules.

There was a a Huston based Senator who fought against their use,
since it would mean that the less safe thin-skinned modules
would not be constructed in Huston and jobs would be lost.


Don Ledger








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                   Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:37:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:31:37 -0400
Subject: Re:  Rendlesham (Dis)Solved - McGonagle



I have just found the new URL for the article referred to in my
previous post, it is:

http://ds.dial.pipex.com/town/close/kca07/index.htm



Joe








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                        Re: Hopkins' Technique - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:39:46 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:32:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Hale


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:23:55 -0500
>Subject:  Re: Hopkins' Technique

>As I said, I agree with Cathy where children are concerned. I am
>not in a position to question Budd Hopkins' techniques, as I've
>never seen him in person in a session. My comments were pointed
>at any researcher who attempts to plumb the depths of the human
>mind, as my post indicated. I think I noted the risks on both
>sides of the abduction riddle. Pro or con.

>I suppose I was just revealing my general mistrust of people who
>tinker with the mind while possessing a fully imperfect human
>mind of their own. Dangerous stuff in my view.


Hi,

Perhaps they should do nothing, and leave it all alone.

No one can get upset then.


Roy






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                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:55:20 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:35:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Ledger


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:23:55 -0500
>Subject:  Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 18:42:18 -0300
>>ubject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

<snip>

>As I said, I agree with Cathy where children are concerned. I
>am not in a position to question Budd Hopkins' techniques, as
>I've never seen him in person in a session. My comments were
>pointed at any researcher who attempts to plumb the depths of
>the human mind, as my post indicated. I think I noted the risks
>on both sides of the abduction riddle. Pro or con.

>I suppose I was just revealing my general mistrust of people
>who tinker with the mind while possessing a fully imperfect
>human mind of their own. Dangerous stuff in my view.

>Nothing more than that. Cathy will have to explain her comments,
>as we just _met_. :)

I don't think the baby [child] should be thrown out with the
bathwater. Since there is evidence that these abductions begin
in childhood, it makes sense to start there. Whether a  shrink
or someone of Budd Hopkins ilk does the task, they both bring
the same level of expertize to the table. Let's give children
credit for being a lot more resilient than this present day
tendency to treat them as if they will self destruct over the
slightest bit of trauma in their lives. We shove the tooth
fairy, fairies in general, the Easter bunny,  Pokemon, gods, the
devil, angels, monsters, ghosts and all sorts of other strange
entities at them during their early impressionable years, what's
the big deal about the pictures of a little gray [grey]?

I have more.

But again, basing arguments pro or con on NOVA's version of how
Budd does his interviews with children is unrealistic. Better to
check with someone who has been present during one of his
interviews.

Don Ledger








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                      Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:57:53 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:38:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved - Hale


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 19:25:49 -0700
>Subject: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved

<snip>

>Recent revelations make it clear that a good part of 'the
>incident' was caused by an admitted hoaxer, using the multiple
>lights of his police vehicle in the fog to produce some
>interesting effects that had Rendlesham's USAF guards wandering
>round in the forest looking for a UFO.


What a load of trash. I heard this guy being interviewed on the
James Whale Show Talksport UK 1089 MW, along with Georgina
Bruni. The guy admitted he did not cause much of the light show
as the above has stated, a case of the sceptics latching onto
something and trying to milk as much out of this cow as
possible!

>Everything else was built  up on that through a whole series
>of errors, pointless secrecy, the service unwillingness to indicate
>any problems (particularly with a base full of US nuclear weapons
>on British soil), diplomatic problems with armed American soldiery
>wandering round off-base, and so on.

Sorry, but have you just landed back from Fantasy Island? After
all that has been written and debated on Rendelsham, along
this comes and rubber stamps the case for closure? Perhaps you
have spent too much time on philosophy courses!

>Among other things the articles put quite a dent in the
>reputation of Nick Pope, once dubbed 'Britain's real-life Fox
>Mulder'. Pope, the low-level civil servant whose investigative
>paperwork at the time was quite objective, now -- after his
>best--selling book 'Open Skies, Closed Minds' -- says still that
>it was extraterrestrials with their flashing lights that landed
>in Rendlesham Forest.

To be fair to Nick, at least he has stuck to his opinion on this
case, where as the UK sceptcis have changed from radioactive
rabbits, to lighthouses that suddenly grow legs and move in the
night.

>There are a lot of fascinating philosophical and psychological
>conclusions to be drawn from the Rendlesham affair, about the
>way people reach beliefs, the way that pre-existing attitudes
>shape people's approaches to investigations, and so on. (Jenny
>Randle's article here, from Britain's premier ufologist, makes
>some splendid criticisms of the ufologist mind-set as well as of
>knee-jerk scepticism.) And I think there are significant
>parallels with what I have heard about Roswell.

Ok, and after 25 years of UFO research can Jenny tell me if
ET has ever been here in any way shape or form?


>Dr Jerry Goodenough
>University of East Anglia
>England

Good to see the Dr. getting out of his classroom and devoting
his time to such a great subject, perhaps researching the mind
and the philopshpy of religion can drive one to boredom, so UFOs
make a good sideshow for all academics!!


Roy








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                       Re: Blimp-Like Object - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:02:16 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:39:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimp-Like Object - Warren


>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 10:09:53 -0500
>Subject: Blimp-Like Object

>Forwarded to the UFO UpDates List for its consideration and
>comment - an interesting picture.

>http://www.fkbureau.org/


Alfred, Et Al,

I believe that's a picture of "The Baldwin Dirigible."


Regards,

Frank Warren










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                CCCRN News: Formation Report #13 - Humboldt,

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:29:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:40:28 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Formation Report #13 - Humboldt,


CCCRN NEWS
E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

September 27, 2004

http://www.cccrn.ca

_____________________________


FORMATION REPORT #13 - HUMBOLDT, SASKATCHEWAN

Large circle in barley, approximately 35 metres (114 feet)
diameter. Found September 22 by farmer while harvesting.
Slightly elliptical with offset centre, counterclockwise lay.
Many plants recovering due to phototropism. As most single
circles tend to be up to about half this size at most on
average, this one is unusually large! Initial field report,
survey diagram and ground photos are posted on the web site.
Investigation in progress by CCCRN Saskatchewan. This is the
thirteenth reported formation for 2004.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop
Circle Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the
latest news and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in
Canada, as well as other information on CCCRN-related
projects and events, sent free to your e-mail

To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an e-mail with either
Subscribe CCCRN News or Unsubscribe CCCRN News in the subject
line to: cccrnnews.nul

c. CCCRN, 2004








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             Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:08:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:44:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 07:36:52 -0700
>Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>From: Mike Christman <mschristman.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:21:19 +0200
>>Subject: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

>>Cosmic Curiosity: Naval History Magazine Reports on August,
>>1952 Incident

>I had the case listed, based on Richard
>Haines' Project Delta book and the Don Berliner catalog, but
>this has much more detail.

>The only things missing are the date (29 AUG 1953) and
>possibly the time of day. The sun would be up 24 hours that far north
>in August of course, so its a daylight sighting regardless.

According to Brad Sparks list of Blue Book unknowns,

http://www.nidsci.org/pdf/bluebookunknowns-v1-6.pdf

the date was 29 August 1952, instead of 1953, time 10:50 a.m.
Original source was again Berliner's catalog.

Again from Berliner catalog, also a 29 August, but 1954,
Greenland sighting of multiple disks by commercial pilots

http://www.ufocat.com/on_this_day/August29.html

Despite the partial coincidence of date and location, this is
apparently unrelated to the military case.


David Rudiak








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                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Reason

From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:37:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:50:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Reason


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 18:42:18 -0300
>ubject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>Just curious, Kyle. On what information are you and Cathy basing
>how you deem Budd Hopkins is interviewing these children?

For my part, none whatsoever - I've always tried to make it
clear that my knowledge of Ufological matters is sketchy at
best. Since I haven't even seen the NOVA show in question, I
know nothing at all about Hopkins' technique or whether the
documentary gave a misleading impression of it.

I can say that interviewing children presents a number of very
specific problems, and that these mainly have to do with the
fact that there are two perspectives in such an interview - the
adult's and the child's, and that children do not think like
adults. A developmental psychologist I once knew, used to begin
his lectures by observing that it was a mistake to regard
children as mini-adults, because one would then inevitably be
forced to the conclusion that they were also incompetent mini-
adults. Children and adults have different competences, and if
you don't take this into account then your research is likely to
produce artifacts.

It isn't just Ufologists who need to be aware of this -
 psychologists need to be aware of it too, and all to frequently
they aren't. Cognitive psychologists in particular are
notoriously prone to misconstrue interactions with children, and
it's impossible to say to what extent psychological constructs
such as suggestibility and fantasy-proneness are really
artifacts arising from such misunderstandings. Indeed, some of
Loftus' own work is a case in point.

To what extent Ufology is also affected by this problem is a
question which would have to be addressed by someone who knows a
lot more about Ufology than I do.

Cathy

[Catherine Reason]








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              Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:59:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:00:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread - Hall


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:55:40 EDT
>Subject: Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread

>>From: Xxx Xxx <xxx.nul>
>>To: sdi.nul
>>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 12:47:42 -0400
>>Subject: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread

>>Hi, Errol, et al,

>>There is presently a tremendously irritating thread on UFO
>>UpDates that reoccurs once every two or three years. The thread
>>involves Budd Hopkins. In general, the theme of the thread
>>condemns Budd's hypnosis techniques, and in specific, an
>>accusation that Budd leads witnesses - especially children.
>>You'd think someone making a charge like this would have some
>>special knowledge of Budd's methods, but these claims are made
>>by people who have no experience in hypnosis, and who are making
>>the claim on the basis of incomplete and out of context excerpts
>>from notoriously non-factual television specials. Is this an
>>example of their brand of research?

>>The present thread was started by someone who cited his 'memory'
>>of an excerpt from a show _he_ admittedly hadn't even seen in
>>years. The thread has now degenerated into participants nodding
>>in agreement about how bad it is to lead children into
>>frightening and potentially damaging belief structures.

>But the _transcript_ has now been presented and it does show
>that Joe M's memory was correct.

>>Yes, I think we all agree its bad to lead any witness, most
>>especially children. The irritation comes from the fact that
>>there is no basis for this contention. Budd simply doesn't do
>>it.

>The _transcript_ shows that he does "do it".  Are you saying it
>was just a one-time slipup pounced on by NOVA's hostile
>producers to embarrass him, and that 99% of the time he does not
>lead witnesses, especially highly suggestible young children?


Brad and List,

I suggest those of you who are reading into the NOVA transcript
cease and desist in condemning Budd for allegedly leading the
child witness until you acquire a proper understanding of what
happened.

The transcript (any transcript) does not properly convey the
facts. Read Errol's detailed post by Budd about the
circumstances:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/sep/m26-008.shtml

The NOVA producer twisted, distorted, and manipulated the film
footage by editing out significant portions that would have
given a totally different impression and therefore taking things
out of context, and clearly they were very hostile toward the
abduction subject.

They were using propaganda and biased presentation techniques
that are all too familiar to those of us who have done many
[pseudo] documentary programs. I remember writing an angry
letter to the producer after watching the program, because their
sleazy tactics were very obvious to me.

Budd does not - repeat - does not lead either adult or child
witnesses and is sensitive to the issues involved in working
with children.

As I've said before, I have sat in on quite a few hypnosis
sessions that he conducted, including some with young children,
and I saw nothing to criticize. And I do know something about
human psychology since I was once Senior Abstracts Editor for
the American Psychological Association.

Like Greg Sandow, who knows Budd well, I am not saying that Budd
is perfect. A professional psychologist (hypnotherapist) friend
and I sat in on one session where, the friend said, Budd did
something relatively minor that was not in the best interests of
the subject. But it was not a major issue either.

I know Budd to be a very caring, conscientious person, who works
hard to do what is right and proper, and he regularly seeks
advice and counsel from professionals.


 - Dick









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                 Re: rritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread -

From: Xxx Xxx <xxx.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:15:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:06:52 -0400
Subject: Re: rritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread -


[This post is from a subscriber and is known to me --ebk]

>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:55:40 EDT
>Subject: Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread

>>From: Xxx Xxx <xxx.nul>
>>To: sdi.nul
>>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 12:47:42 -0400
>>Subject: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread

>>There is presently a tremendously irritating thread on UFO
>>UpDates that reoccurs once every two or three years. The thread
>>involves Budd Hopkins. In general, the theme of the thread
>>condemns Budd's hypnosis techniques, and in specific, an
>>accusation that Budd leads witnesses - especially children.
>>You'd think someone making a charge like this would have some
>>special knowledge of Budd's methods, but these claims are made
>>by people who have no experience in hypnosis, and who are making
>>the claim on the basis of incomplete and out of context excerpts
>>from notoriously non-factual television specials. Is this an
>>example of their brand of research?

>>The present thread was started by someone who cited his 'memory'
>>of an excerpt from a show _he_ admittedly hadn't even seen in
>>years. The thread has now degenerated into participants nodding
>>in agreement about how bad it is to lead children into
>>frightening and potentially damaging belief structures.

>But the _transcript_ has now been presented and it does show
>that Joe M's memory was correct.

>>Yes, I think we all agree its bad to lead any witness, most
>>especially children. The irritation comes from the fact that
>>there is no basis for this contention. Budd simply doesn't do
>>it.

>The _transcript_ shows that he does "do it".  Are you saying it
>was just a one-time slipup pounced on by NOVA's hostile
>producers to embarrass him, and that 99% of the time he does not
>lead witnesses, especially highly suggestible young children?

Hi, Brad,

I'm saying what I said, which is that, announcing Budd misleads
children on the basis of a fleeting memory of a TV show - and
now a transcript of a particularly inaccurate TV show - is
deliberately inflammatory and paints an unfair picture.

I'm not saying Budd's (nor any research method for that matter)
is without weakness, nor that reasonable people couldn't come to
differing conclusions about what that research indicates.











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                Dr. John Mack Succumbs To Accident Injuries?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:29:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:29:02 -0400
Subject: Dr. John Mack Succumbs To Accident Injuries?

For the past couple of hours I've been receiving e-mails
reporting that Dr. John Mack was struck while crossing a street
in London last night. He reportedly died shortly thereafter.

I've searched news sources for confirmation of the reports and
have found nothing.

However, The John Mack Institute's website at:

http://www.centerchange.org/

has a terse, new, one-line header on its front page which
ominously reads:


"AN ANNOUNCEMENT WILL BE FORTHCOMING"


ebk





ebk







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             Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -

From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:20:49 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:43:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident -


>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:47 AM
>Subject: Re: Naval History Magazine Reports 1952 Incident

<snip>

>the inconsistency is so minor and understandable that I don't
>think it detracts from the believability of the account at all.
>For one thing, there are several other incidents of UFOs nosing
>around Skyhook and Mogul balloons that we know about and are
>very well documented.

>For a little bit more about Mogul/Skyhook personnel UFO
>sightings see:

>http://www.roswellproof.com/Mogul_UFOs.html

For even more details on the known sightings by Mogul/Skyhook
balloon personnel, see a new page I just got up on my website:

http://www.roswellproof.com/Balloon_UFO_Sightings.html

Note that the newly-described 1952 Naval Greenland incident
involving a Skyhook balloon has been added to the list.

One of the very interesting pieces of documentation linked to is
a letter to Dr. James van Allen from Cmdr. Robert McLaughlin,
who headed up the Naval missile research program at White Sands.
I received a copy of this letter from Brad Sparks. You can view
it at:

http://www.roswellproof.com/McLaughlin_Van_Allen_letter.html

In the letter McLaughlin, a new UFO "believer" described the
following:

1. Charles Moore's famous UFO sighting from April 24, 1949. This
is the same Charles Moore of Mogul/Roswell infamy who is
debunking Roswell in the present-day, and even created a hoaxed
Mogul balloon trajectory to reinforce it.

As Brad Sparks pointed out to ne, note how McLaughlin in this
unclassified letter states that Moore "had been head of Project
Mogul for the Air Force." Yes, this is the same "Project Mogul"
whose very name was supposedly so super-secret, hush-hush, that
Moore has claimed he never heard it used until it was
declassified in 1992. Yet McLaughlin is not only using the
forbidden words but saying the Moore was in charge of very same.

(Moore, incidentally, was witness to another UFO during a
Skyhook launch on Oct. 11, 1951, also described on the above web
page of sightings.)

2. McLaughlin's own UFO sighting during a V-2 launch, which he
had only a few days before he wrote the letter to van Allen (May
12, 1949). He wrote this sighting up, along with Moore's, in a
famous True Magazine article from March 1950, which you can read
at:

http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/true-mc.htm

3. Described famous astronomer Clyde Tombaugh's fascination with
UFOs (Tombaugh had his own jaw-dropping sighting August 20,
1948). Both Tombaugh and McLaughlin thought there was a
connection between the first A-bomb test in New Mexico when Mars
was at close approach and the current onslaught of flying saucer
sightings. Tombaugh told McLaughlin that he had personally seen
a bright flash on Mars on August 27, 1941, which he now ascribed
to "an atomic explosion of some sort." (More likely a meteor
strike, IMHO)

All in all, a fascinating letter. Please check it out.


David ("getting sick of balloons") Rudiak








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                      Re: endlesham (Dis)Solved - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:58:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:45:08 -0400
Subject: Re: endlesham (Dis)Solved - Hall


>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:02:47 -0700
>Subject: Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved

>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 04:52:57 -0000
>From: poetdreamerscholar.nul
>To: fort.nul
>Subj: [fort] Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved

>I'd find this much easier to accept if it weren't for two
>things:

>1. I'm always highly suspicious of "confessions" which come two
>decades after the fact; and

>2. The same Skeptics who now tell us that Rendlesham was a
>purposely-created hoax (based on the testimony of a solitary
>witness) spent that intervening 20 years insisting that the
>Rendlesham UFO was actually nothing more that the bright
>illumination from a marine lighthouse shimmering through
>Rendlesmam Forest.

>Have you ever noticed that single-witness testimonies are never
>good enough to establish the existence of anything, but are
>perfectly sufficent for debunking?

>Sincerely,

>George Wagner
>gwagneroldtimeradio.nul

Excellent point. As an ex-USAF enlisted man myself, my mind
boggles at the notion that someone could fake or stage such
events on a strategically important Air Force Base.

The story makes no sense at all.

That sucker would be in the brig before you could say "Pelican
guano."  No way!

Also, Col. Halt (whom I know and have interviewed at length) is
a very impressive witness, whose testimony tends to be discarded
at will by second-guessing, armchair debunkers whose main claim
to knowledge appears to be based on visits to the site 20-plus
years later and totally erroneous assertions about lighthouses.


- Dick









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             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:48:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:47:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:42:06 EDT
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 23:00:21 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:22:15 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

<snip>

>>If you claim the Cutler-Twining memo does, I would retort that
>>enough suspicion and distrust has been attached to that since
>>1987. To say nothing of an official 10-point disclaimer from the
>>National Archives.

>>In other words, it is not a case that many "are not from

>>I have a comment about the CT memo.

<snip>

>>So I examined closely the CT memo. It is onion skin, with two
>>definite crease lines across as if it had been tri-folded at one
>>time. However the crease lines were pressed flat.

>I recall you telling me that back in the 80's. But the
>horizontal triple folds are just what a hoaxer might do to
>smuggle a fake CT Memo into the Archives folded like a letter in
>his jacket or coat.

Perhaps.

<snip>

>Then the AF agent or the DIA-SAC Colonel known to have been
>involved in MJ-12 could have smuggled the sheet into the
>Archives, then planted the location clues using the "Ethiopian
>postcard" that was sent so that the planted document could be
>"found."

You refer to the postcard that essentially gave the box location
of the document. But Shandara and Moore did not "connect the
dots" until after they had found the document by a "brute-force"
search of all the boxes.

>As for the creases, once they were noticed surely the
>hoaxer would have tried to flatten them out using a fingernail
>in the Archives as this would be much too suspicious since the
>"original" carbon copy in the "NSC" (as it was meant to be by
>forged imitation) would always have been flat in a file folder
>and never folded as if sent in the mail in an envelope. Then
>the hoaxer would have made sure the flimsy onionskin sheet was
>flattened further between heavy stacks of normal weight paper in
>the file box it was found in so that it would have months of
>paper-flattening pressure before being "found".

We don't know that the document wouldn't have been folded by the
person acting in Cutler's behalf to place it in a business
envelop for transmission to Twining... probably by special
courier.

But anyway, your suggestion that it was sitting in a box with
papers and much weight on it from the time the hoaxer put it in
the box until Shandara found it doesn't ring true to me. I have
examined the box... and looked at the other file folders (which,
as I recall, had many pink withdrawal sheets... documents never
given to the archives). The documents in folders stand on edge.
The file box holds the documents and folders vertically. There
is no weight or pressure.








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                An Interesting Article On Photo Manipulation

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:22:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:52:22 -0400
Subject: An Interesting Article On Photo Manipulation


If anyone has questioned whether or not a photo can be
convincingly faked, this article give a glimpse of the
technology involved with today digital capabilities:

http://www.discover.com/web-exclusives/real-or-photoshopped0927/


Steve








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                           UFO Mockumentary To Air

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:58:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:53:52 -0400
Subject: UFO Mockumentary To Air


http://www.yorkregion.com/yr/newscentre/erabanner/story/2239625p-2594850c.html

Here's a funny story on a chap who filmed his own UFO
"Mockumentary" 15 years ago and shelved it.

He decided to finally show it to the public and it's going to
air on the Space Channel.

It's a comedy that uses first person UFO accounts.

Hey the man's name is Pfundt.

Reminds me of Funt.

Say, it's fun to laugh at yourself.


Best,

Greg







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                Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:55:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:58:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - King


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:32:02 -0300
>Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules

<snip>

>There was a a Huston based Senator who fought against their use,
>since it would mean that the less safe thin-skinned modules
>would not be constructed in Huston and jobs would be lost.


Hi Don,

The Johnson Space Center is located in Clear Lake City, south of
_Houston_.

There are no modules constructed at JSC, thin-skinned or otherwise.
JSC is a training facility for astronauts.

NASA plays a huge role in the local economy of Clear Lake City, but
the proliferation of unmanned probe and satellite missions has made
the JSC...home of Mission Control...mainly a monitoring center for
the ISS.

Many jobs have been lost, but not because of manufacturing. That is
done elsewhere.

The chief cause has been the grounding of the Shuttle.

Regards,

Kyle









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                Re: Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:56:05 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:01:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest


>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:27:31 -0400
>Subject: Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest Argentina

>INEXPLICATA
>The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
>September 27, 2004

>Source: Las Ultimas Noticias (LUN)

>Talk of tornadoes, fallen satellites and saucer crashes
>Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest

-snip-


Hi Scott,

This is most interesting, in light of my posting (and update) in
the last few days regarding the large "tree circles" in the
Northwest Territories here in Canada, at least the two locations
we know of so far in the last few years. I'm not implying there
must necessarily be any kind of connection, but this case of
yours, like ours here, certainly deserves continued follow-up
(which I am also still doing here).

I'm interested in any further details on this Argentina case
when they are available, in particular any aerial / ground
photos and studies regarding the snapped and "exploded" trunks
(the ones that "appear to have been blown away from within by a
stick of dynamite"). The description as provided reminds me, at
least superficially, of the "blown nodes" (expulsion cavities)
found in the nodes of some crop formations, including those
large ones in the recent formation again in Matsqui, BC this
summer, similar to last year's, in 7' - 10' tall cattle corn
(per my other recent updates; scan images are on the CCCRN web
site in the 2003 / 2004 report archives).

Is there any kind of overall shape to the downed trees in your
case or just random? - I understand the trees are flattened in
one direction; in the ones here, they are / were flattened
radially, the tops pointing inward in the Nahanni Butte ones and
both inward and outward in the Cli Lake ones. According to some
preliminary consultations with forestry experts, I've been told
that blowdown areas can sometimes be roughly circular (or just a
random swath / mess as usually the case), but not "perfect
circles" and not with radial lay patterns of fallen trees, which
is the aspect I'm most intrigued about.

I also just heard of a similar case (circle) involving trees in
Wisconsin in 1984, from Richard Hendricks of The Anomalist. Not
sure if it has ever been mentioned on this list before or not,
but he has a newsclipping with photo which he is sending me a
copy of.


Best,

Paul Anderson
Canadian Crop Circle Research Network
http://www.cccrn.ca







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                    Dr. John Mack Killed By Drunk Driver

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:20:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:20:43 -0400
Subject: Dr. John Mack Killed By Drunk Driver

Sadly, the rumour is true...

Dr. Mack was in Oxford speaking at the T. E. Lawrence Society
Symposium, this past Sunday afternoon. His speech went so well
that he was asked to give another that evening, which he did.

Yesterday evening he went out for dinner with friends in London
and was returning to where he was staying, on a darkened street,
was struck and died instantly, by a vehicle driven by a drunk
driver.


ebk






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                           Passing Of Dr John Mack

From: John E Mack Institute <info.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:34:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:00:05 -0400
Subject: Passing Of Dr John Mack


This is preliminary information; further information will be
posted to www.johnemackinstitute.org

Passing Of Dr John Mack: Announcement To Friends And Colleagues

At this time we must with great sorrow confirm that Dr John Mack
has passed away in London, England.

Dr Mack was one of several speakers discussing British officer
T.E. Lawrence ("Lawrence of Arabia") at the T. E. Lawrence
Society Symposium, Oxford. Dr Mack's 1977 biography of T.E.
Lawrence, A Prince of Our Disorder, received the Pulitzer Prize
in biography (see complete bio below). Dr Mack's presentation at
an afternoon panel was so warmly received that he was asked to
stay and present an additional evening talk, which again met
with positive response. Afterward, he went to dinner with
friends.

On his return to the home at which he was staying while in
London, traveling on foot on Totteridge Road, he was struck by a
vehicle being driven by an intoxicated driver. Dr Mack was in a
crosswalk. Dr Mack was pronounced dead on the scene by London
police and is believed to have died on impact.

Dr Mack leaves three sons, two grandsons, his former wife, and
many friends who love him dearly.

This information will be revised as needed and will be replaced
by a statement from Dr Mack's family when available. Information
will be posted to the John E Mack Institute website,
www.johnemackinstitute.org

The John E Mack Institute, recently named in his honor, honors
Dr Mack's courageous examination of human experiences, and his
landmark explorations of the ways in which perceptions and
beliefs about reality shape the human condition.


BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION

John Mack (From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

John Edward Mack, M.D. (October 4, 1929 - Sep 27, 2004),
professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and Pulitzer
Prize-winning biographer, considered to be a leading authority
on the spiritual or transformational affects of alleged alien
encounter experiences.

Mack received his medical degree from the Harvard Medical School
(Cum Laude, 1955) after undergraduate study at Oberlin (Phi Beta
Kappa, 1951). He is a graduate of the Boston Psychoanalytic
Society and Institute and is Board certified in child and adult
psychoanalysis.

The dominant theme of his life's work has been the exploration
of how one's perceptions of the world affect one's
relationships. He addressed this issue of "worldview" on the
individual level in his early clinical explorations of dreams,
nightmares and teen suicide, and in his biographical study of
the life of British officer T. E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia),
for which he received the Pulitzer Prize in biography in 1977.

Mack advocated that Western culture requires a shift away from a
purely materialist worldview (which he feels is responsible for
the Cold War, the global ecological crisis, ethnonationalism and
regional conflict) towards a transpersonal worldview which
embraces certain elements of Eastern spiritual and philosophical
traditions.

Mack's interest in the spiritual aspect of human experience has
been compared by the New York Times to that of fellow Harvard
alum William James, and like James, Mack became a controversial
figure for his efforts to bridge spirituality and psychiatry.

This theme was taken to a controversial extreme in the early
1990s when Mack commenced his decade-plus study of 200 men and
women who claimed that recurrent alien encounter experiences had
affected the way they regarded the world, including a heightened
sense of spirituality and environmental concern. Mack's interest
in the spiritual or transformational aspects of people's alien
encounters, and his suggestion that the experience of alien
contact itself may be more spiritual than physical in nature --
 yet nonetheless real -- set him apart from many of his
contemporaries such as Budd Hopkins, who initially advocated the
physical reality of aliens.

In 1994 the Dean of Harvard Medical School appointed a committee
of peers to review Mack's clinical care and clinical
investigation of the people who had shared their alien
encounters with him (some of their cases were written of in
Mack's 1994 book Abduction). After fourteen months of inquiry
and amid growing questions from the academic community
(including Harvard Professor of Law Alan Dershowitz) regarding
the validity of Harvard's investigation of a tenured professor,
Harvard issued a statement stating that the Dean had "reaffirmed
Dr. Mack's academic freedom to study what he wishes and to state
his opinions without impediment," concluding "Dr. Mack remains a
member in good standing of the Harvard Faculty of Medicine."

Mack's explorations later broadened into the general
consideration of the merits of an expanded notion of reality,
one which allows for experiences that may not fit the Western
materialist paradigm, yet deeply affect people's lives. His
second (and final) book on the alien encounter experience,
Passport to the Cosmos: Human Transformation and Alien
Encounters (1999), was as much the culmination of his work with
the "experiencers" of alien encounters (to whom the book is
dedicated) as it was a philosophical treatise connecting the
themes of spirituality and modern
worldviews.

Notes:
Mack was a student of Grof Holotropic Breathwork,
a meditative technique developed by Stanislav Grof.

Mack's work was documented in the film "TOUCHED"
by Emmy-nominated filmmaker Laurel Chiten
http://www.blinddogfilms.com/touched

HIGH RESOLUTION (3.5 MB) PORTRAIT OF DR JOHN MACK
http://www.johnemackinstitute.org/johnmack.jpg

Archive of Dr John Mack's writings:
http://www.passporttothecosmos.com

The John E Mack Institute:
http://www.johnemackinstitute.org







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              Re: Dr. John Mack Killed By Drunk Driver - Boone

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:27:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:11:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. John Mack Killed By Drunk Driver - Boone


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:20:43 -0400
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Dr. John Mack Killed By Drunk Driver


>I just spoke with Will Bueche of The John Mack Institute & The
>Centre For Change, in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

>Sadly, the rumour is true...

<snip>

Thank you Errol for informing us of this tragedy.

We all throughout the world owe Dr. Mack a debt of gratitude for
his courage and works.

The world has lost a true champion and compassionate
professional.

I'd only met him once in Roswell's 50th Anniversary where he
generously gave us a few minutes for a video interview. He then
was in my hometown area with an institute he was with.

Calls upon all of us to honor him with doing the professional
and honorable research.

Prayers to him and his family.


Best,

Greg







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             Re: Dr. John Mack Killed By Drunk Driver - Harrison

From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:44:32 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:13:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. John Mack Killed By Drunk Driver - Harrison


Very sad he will be missed


Diane Harrison


National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn.nul
E-mail: ufologist.nul
http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn

ADMINISTRATION:

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Tel 07 55 44 6888
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All NEW UFO Bookshop at
http://www.contactpublishing.com







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              Re: Dr. John Mack Killed By Drunk Driver - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:50:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:15:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Dr. John Mack Killed By Drunk Driver - Velez


My deepest condolences and sympathy to his family and friends. I
knew and respected John. May he rest in Peace.


John Velez








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                                Dr. John Mack

From: Mark Haywood <circleman99.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:30:15 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:56:55 -0400
Subject: Dr. John Mack


Our thoughts should go out to his family and friends at this
time.

It is a sad loss for UFO research when a stalwart campaigner for
the truth is lost



Mark Haywood

Cosmic Horizons







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                                  John Mack

From: Chris Burns <Thurstonoreggae.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:49:10 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:04:49 -0400
Subject: John Mack


List,

This is incredibly sad news. My sympathy to his family.

Chris Burns






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                                Dr. John Mack

From: Lavinia Pallotta <galactica.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 00:10:26 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:22:58 -0400
Subject: Dr. John Mack


Dr. John Mack was esteemed and respected in all over the world.
Scientific abduction research has lost one of its Great Fathers.


Lavinia Pallotta
Italy


President of Fondazione Sentinel
http://www.fondazionesentinel.org
Gruppo Camelot
http://www.gruppocamelot.too.it
webzine Camelot Chronicles
http://camelotchr.too.it









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                             Professor John Mack

From: Ronald Freeman <i.ron1.nul
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:15:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:44:05 -0400
Subject: Professor John Mack


-----

From: Dr Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul>
To: exopolitics.nul
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:11:58 -0000
Subject: Professor John Mack Dies in an Accident


Aloha Everyone, it's my sad duty to announce that Prof John Mack
passed away last night in an auto accident.

The news was confirmed by Wendelle Stevens and so it looks like
one of the leading lights who did so much to legitimize
abduction/contact research is no longer with us.

I'm sure the legacy of Prof Mack will continue to shine the
light on the genuiness of abduction research, and of the
transformative potential of the ET presence. He also was a
leading light in legitimizing ET research within a university
environment so he will be surely missed by those of us battling
to have ET/exopolitical research included within university
curricula.

He will be surely missed by all.


In peace

Michael Salla, Phd
www.exopolitics.org








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                                  John Mack

From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:54:27 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 20:47:52 -0400
Subject: John Mack


I met Dr. Mack a few times around the globe, always at
conferences, always very focused in his work. I have great
admiration for his work and I learned a lot from his books.

The Brazilian UFO Community is deeply saddened by this tragic
accident and recognise that serious abduction research has
suffered a great loss. Dr. Mack's place will be hard to fill.

Whoever knows his family, please trasmit the Brazilian UFO
researchers' condolences.


A. J. Gevaerd










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                                Dr. John Mack

From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:13:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 20:49:26 -0400
Subject: Dr. John Mack


A man of science who had grit and courage to look and learn.
Now, he knows the answers and we are poorer by his passing.


Wendy Connors








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                             Professor John Mack

From: Michael Christol <spachopr.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:28:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 20:52:04 -0400
Subject: Professor John Mack


My condolences to the family and friends of Dr. John Mack.
His tragic passing will leave a large gap in the credible
research science of Alien Abduction and Ufology.

My pPrayers are with him as he moves into the higher realms
of Eternity.


Mike Christol








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                                Dr. John Mack

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: TueDate: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:16:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:55:31 -0400
Subject: Dr. John Mack


My condolences to Dr.Mack's family, friends, and colleagues for
their loss.


Sincerely,

Royce J. Myers III
ufowatchdog.com







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                              On Dr. John Mack

From: Larry Landsman <LL1157.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:35:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:57:07 -0400
Subject: On Dr. John Mack


It truly was a shock to learn of his untimely passing today.

Those of us at the SCI FI Channel who had the honor of meeting
(and breaking bread with) Dr. Mack are grateful for the time we
had together. His significant contributions to a field still
struggling for legitimacy cannot be overstated. His wit,
intelligence, and tenacity will surely be missed.

Our sincerest condolences to Dr. Mack's family and colleagues.


Larry Landsman
Director, Special Projects
SCI FI Channel








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                           Passing Of Dr John Mack

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 00:22:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:15:38 -0400
Subject: Passing Of Dr John Mack


Very sorry to learn of Dr. Mack's demise.

His work in the UFO field will be long remembered.

I was his roommate for a few days at a UFO conference (TREAT) at
the University of Virginia back in the late "80's. I tried to
convey to him the idea that there were physical aspects to UFO
sightings and events which provided proof of the physical
reality, but he never took that seriously.

In his first book on the subject, Abduction, he essentially
rejected physical proof, saying that there may never be such
evidence and that it will be necessary to rely upon witness
statements about recollections or statement made during
hypnosis.

The death of John Mack at the hands of a 'criminal' - a drunk -
recalls the death of Eugene Mallove last spring at the hands of
another criminal - during a robbery.

Gene was not a 'ufologist', but he was partial to the subject
and understood that there was something going on that was worthy
of attention. He asked me to write a UFO article for Infinite
Energy Magazine, an article that would rebut the Klass type of
criticism that there was nothing to the UFO subject. That
article became Prosaic Explanations: The Failure Of UFO
Skepticism, published several years ago and available at my web
site.

The loss of these two men will have an impact on the subjects of
their respective interest. (The impact on cold fusion research
and publication has already been impacted by the loss of Gene,
who was the editor of Infinite Energy and a great promoter of
research into "new energies.")








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                 John Mack's Transpersonal Journey Continues

From: Peter Khoury <ufoesa.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:13:06 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:29:43 -0400
Subject: John Mack's Transpersonal Journey Continues

-----

Like all of us I found the news of John Mack's untimely passing
very saddening.

While some of us might not have agreed with some of the
directions John was taking the subject in, I think the field has
been enriched by his involvement. When he was in Australia I
supported his research into indigenous aboriginal abduction &
UFO experiences - an area we both had a strong interest in,
particularly its shamanic dimensions. On the hurdles he often
encountered, particularly from mainstream academia, he once told
me what he felt. Maybe his response was coloured by spending
too much time in Australia, but clearly he enjoyed his time down
down under. His response: "Fuck 'em". I smiled and wished him
well. He was always a courageous and wonderful researcher. Full
speed John on the rest of your transpersonal journey.

I recently went through the final editing of my forthcoming
book, from which some discussions about John's legacy had been
deleted. Not my choice, but this forum and this time seems like
a good place to post that material.

Regards,

Bill Chalker

-----

I lectured with John Mack, Dominique Callimanopulos, his
research associate, Robb Tilley, a fellow research associate,
and experiencers, Kelly Cahill and Peter Khoury, in Sydney, on
February 4th, 1996, at an Australian Transpersonal Association
presentation. Some of the forum session was germane to the key
issues being discussed in this book, specifically the search for
evidence and the nature of the reality behind alien abductions.
This is the crux of the problem. The abduction phenomenon is
centring on the human dimension of the UFO phenomenon. To date
it has not provided the kind of physical evidence that would
persuade a scientist.[i] The UFO phenomenon has in many ways.
My focus in this book on the scientific and forensic examination
of the alien abduction phenomenon is an attempt to re-centre the
drift of the abduction mystery:


Dominique Callimanopulos: The real problem with this is how do
you define what knowledge is and how do we know when we know
something. You have the researcher who has his or her
consciousness coming at an experiencer or abductee who is having
a subjective experience... The whole interaction is not
something you can repeat. So how do we know what takes place
during that enquiry.

Bill Chalker: Just as a scientist to respond to the question
about physical evidence and the need for physical evidence, I
would like to put my perspective... Like it or lump it, the UFO
experience (and the abduction experience) is a marginalised
experience in human society. It might be popularised by the X
Files and things like that. But, essentially it is seen as a
fringe phenomenon. It is not generally accepted as a reality.
 Most of us on a day to day basis live in a physical reality and
that=92s why there is this sort of emphasis on the search for
physical evidence ... But, I find it interesting that indigenous
cultures seem to be coming out and offering us some quite
sobering insights into this field, that they themselves seem to
have been aware of for hundreds of years. Also, the powerful
nature of these experiences on the individual is also sobering
from a scientific point of view, for me at least ... That=92s why
I turn to people like John and other health professionals to
assist us in that field.

John Mack: What Bill is slipping us slightly into here, is what
I=92ve called the politics of ontology. In other words, this is a
political question he is hinting at. Who decides in a given
culture what is real or not. In this culture it isn=92t any
longer so much the religious leaders, as it is the scientists.
 In other words the mainstream scientists tell us the
methodologies, the criteria for reality that we are expected to
go by, and he said this very well, that is, unfortunately in
this culture, this is marginalised and mainstream notions of
method and reality require that we get this physical evidence,
and I support this, and I think we should get physical evidence.
 But, I just think we should be aware of the degree to which
what is real is determined on the basis of a consensus of a
certain elite.


Some critics argue that sufficient explanations for the UFO
abduction mystery are already available. Answers may yet
emerge in work being done with such esoteric fields as temporal
lobe sensitivities, fantasy prone personalities, false memory
syndrome, sleep paralysis, and electro-hypersensitivities. Some
of these areas have been examined and found wanting. Some
researchers feel that such areas are not relevant, but the
judgement is in, and abductions are real alien experiences.
 Others argue just as passionately that it is all rubbish. What
is needed is the recognition that it is far too early to rush to
judgement with definite positions. What has been uncovered to
date - an extraordinarily complex human drama - argues
powerfully for caution and patience. We have a long way to go
and much to discover along the way.

John Mack was a potent and articulate spokesman for some of the
wider dimensions of the abduction mystery, and with his 1999
book, Passport To The Cosmos =96 Human Transformation And Alien
Encounters, he plainly marked out his perspectives, that were
signalled in his first book on the subject =96 Abduction =96 Human
Encounters With Aliens.[ii]

In essence "Passport" represented a shamanic envisioning of the
whole alien abduction mystery. The transformative aspects of the
phenomenon held sway for John Mack, and examination of the
physical dimensions seemed secondary or even unimportant. He
argued, "There are problems with an entirely literal physical
interpretation. To begin with, despite liberal use of words like
genetic, DNA, and mitochondria, there is not solid material
evidence of which I am aware to support the notion that any of
this, including the creation of the hybrids themselves, is
occurring on the material plane to the extent that detectable or
measurable changes are happening at the molecular level. At best
what we have in the physical domain are small lesions (which
skeptics say could be self-inflicted, but I have found no
evidence for this) and bodily symptoms that might be
manifestations of subtle forces, real energies originating on
another plane of reality."[iii]

These statements puzzled me somewhat as during his research
visits to Australia and after them he had become well acquainted
with Peter Khoury and the fact that the hair sample related to
his 1992 experience was being subjected to mitochondrial DNA
sequence analysis. Our first report on the work =96 Strange
Evidence =96 appeared in the Spring 1999 issue of the
International UFO Reporter and information about it was widely
reported in the UFO media from June 1999 onwards. Prior to that
we were circulating the preliminary results of the research. In
addition while the words genetic and DNA might have been
liberally used in the abduction research field I was not aware
of similar usage of the term mitochondrial, until the appearance
of the "Strange Evidence" report. I felt that perhaps any
information that gave credence to the relevance of words like
genetic, DNA and mitochondria, as our study did, conflicted with
the numinous dimensions of the hyper reality John Mack
speculates is at the heart of the abduction phenomenon. He
concludes, "The abduction phenomenon seems to be one of a number
of intrusions into our reality from other realms that are
contributing to the gradual (at least so far) spiritual rebirth
taking place in Western culture. It seems to have something to
do with the human future. Each of the principal elements of the
phenomenon =96 the traumatic intrusions; the reality-shattering
encounters; the energetic intensity; the apocalyptic ecological
confrontations; the reconnection with Source; and the forging of
new relationships across a dimensional divide =96 contributes to
the daishigyo, the great ego death, that is marking the end of
the materialist business-as-usual paradigm that has lost its
compatibility with life in the world as we now know it."[iv] For
John Mack, "In the end, the abduction phenomenon seems to me to
be a part of the shift in consciousness that is collapsing
duality and enabling us to see that we are connected beyond the
Earth at a cosmic level."[v]

It seems that in alien abductions John Mack has seen
affirmations of important concerns and perspectives he has long
had, and they sit well with the transpersonal and environmental
issues he has championed for some time, certainly long before
the alien sirens beckoned him into their seductive embrace. To
do that requires one to disconnect from the classic physical
dimensions of the abduction phenomenon, all of which seem to
argue that at least part of the experience occurs in the real
world and real world consequences occur. Physical evidence,
both explicit and hidden, is becoming available. What has not
been so much in evidence are appropriate methodologies to
capture and assess this range of evidence. So far the record has
been uninspiring, but a new paradigm is emerging, one that has
been well represented in terms of potential and actual results
by one small part of that paradigm, namely DNA. Other parts of
that new paradigm have their anchor in science and its broad
base of approaches to understanding the world around us, even
when it=92s being intruded upon, perhaps by something out there.

What is needed, rather than uncoupling from the physical reality
we think we all understand, to embrace the wider startling
realities that are intruding into our world, is a
multidisciplinary approach. Science needs to be an anchor in
this enterprise.

Budd Hopkins and Carol Rainey in their book, Sight Unseen,
provide a sort of de-facto 'reality check', when they highlight
the various scientific breakthroughs and discoveries which
resonate or reflect the bizarre elements that have emerged in
abduction lore over the previous few decades. In essence the
impossibility of the body of abduction lore as perceived by Budd
Hopkins, David Jacobs and others may diminish considerably given
that some of the startling advances of our own sciences seem to
eerily approximate some of the unlikely tenets of the alien
abduction mythos. For example the field of transgenics provides
a telling analog answer for the genetic species barrier argument
that was thrown up in the face of the "ridiculous" claims that
maybe a human alien "hybrid" agenda was at the heart of the
abduction mystery. Such analogies are not certainties but they
give sustenance to the argument that some of the touchstones of
abduction lore are not as unfeasible as they seemed a decade
ago.[vi]

The results that emerged with the hair sample recovered from
Peter Khoury=92s 1992 experience are a veritable lightning rod to
such speculations. The evidence in total (from Chapters 3 & 4)
might represent advanced DNA and cloning techniques, we are only
now beginning to develop and exploit. One of Carl Sagan=92s last
books The Demon - Haunted World, was subtitled, Science As A
Candle In The Dark.[vii] Science should light the way, but not
in a debunking way, that seems so rife in the contemporary
mainstream science and sceptical communities responses to the
abduction mystery. Science can allow us to focus on a strategy
beyond the crossroads at which abduction research now lingers.
Even the quantum envisioning of reality, seen in such works as
"Hyperspace" by quantum physicist Michio Kaku,[viii] strikingly
reflect the more numinous and abstract pictures of reality and
strange phenomena that pervade alternative views anchored in
consciousness.[ix]


[i] See the course of the debate in such books as The Abduction
Enigma =96 The Truth Behind The Mass Alien Abductions Of The Late
Twentieth Century, by Kevin Randle, Russ Estes, and William
Cone, Ph.D. (1999), The Complete Book Of Aliens And Abductions,
by Jenny Randles (1999), UFOs And Ufology =96 The First 50 Years,
by Paul Devereux and Peter Brookesmith (1997), Alien
Discussions =96 Proceedings Of The Abduction Study Conference Held
At MIT, Cambridge, MA, edited by Andrea Pritchard, David
Pritchard, John Mack, Pam Kasey & Claudia Yapp (1994), Close
Encounters of the Fourth Kind =96 A Reporter=92s Notebook On Alien
Abduction, UFOs, And The Conference At M.I.T., by C.D.B. Bryan
(1995), Alien Abductions =96 Creating A Modern Phenomenon by
Terry Matheson (1998), and UFOs & Abductions =96 Challenging The
Borders Of Knowledge, edited by David Jacobs (University Press
of Kansas, 2000)

[ii] Abduction =96 Human Encounters With Aliens, by John Mack
(1994)

[iii] Passport to the Cosmos, by John Mack, (1999) pg. 125

[iv] Ibid, "Passport" pg 279

[v] Ibid, "Passport" pg 280

[vi] See Sight Unseen =96 Science, UFO Invisibility And
Transgenic Beings, by Budd Hopkins & Carol Rainey (2003).

[vii] The Demon-Haunted World =96 Science As A Candle In The
Dark by Carl Sagan (1996)

[viii] Hyperspace =96 A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel
Universes, Time Warps, And The 10Th Dimension, by Michio Kaku
(1994)

[ix] For example, The Holographic Universe, by Michael Talbot
(1991), The Eagle=92s Quest =96 A Physicist=92S Search For Truth In
The Heart Of The Shamanic World, by Fred Alan Wolf (1991), and
off course, Passport tO The Cosmos =96 Human Transformation And
Alien Encounters, by John Mack (1999)






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                           Passing Of Dr John Mack

From: Stanton T. Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:24:42 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:39:58 -0400
Subject: Passing Of Dr John Mack


I spent time with John at a number of conferences at which both
John and I spoke. Because he spoke after me at 2 in Australia,
he had to listen to my comments about physical world
explanations for alien visitations, but not excluding many
transformational aspects of the UFO problem.

He certainly had been brianwashed by his friend Carl Sagan and
others. I think I moved him slightly in the direction of
considering that maybe interstellar travel and high performance
craft zipping around the atmosphere did not violate laws of
physics

His courage at Harvard, when taking on the nasty, noisy
negativists, was certainly admirable.


Stan Friedman










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                       John Mack Pultizer Winner Dies

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:00:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:00:52 -0400
Subject: John Mack Pultizer Winner Dies




Source: The Washington Times - Washington, DC

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040929-084304-2843r.htm

09-29-04


John Mack Pultizer Winner Dies

Cambridge, MA, Sep. 29 (UPI) -- John E. Mack, who won a Pulitzer
Prize for his study of T.E. Lawrence and who researched people
reporting encounters with extraterrestrials, has died at age 74.

Mack was a Harvard Medical School professor and the John E. Mack
Institute in Cambridge, Mass., released news of his death. Mack
was crossing a street in London Monday when he was hit by a car
driven by a drunken driver, the institute said in a release.
London authorities said Mack was dead at the scene.

Mack was in London for a conference on T.E. Lawrence --
 "Lawrence of Arabia." Mack's "A Prince of Our Disorder: The
Life of T.E. Lawrence" won the Pulitzer Prize for biography in
1977.

He also interviewed some 200 individuals who said they had had
encounters with alien beings. Mack reportedly believed such
encounters were real, although perhaps more spiritual than
physical, information on the institute Web site stated. That
work was berated by other academics, but Mack held that the
spiritual or transformational aspects of those alleged
encounters gave important psychoanalytic insights.









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                      Dr John Mack & Physical Evidence

From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:42:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:04:05 -0400
Subject: Dr John Mack & Physical Evidence


I think Mack�s position relative to the physical evidence has
often been misunderstood. It may have been when he spoke at the
Triad UFO Research Conference in Bellevue, WA in 1993 that I
heard him address this. He made the point that there is physical
evidence, aspects of the phenomenon that would be fun for
"science buffs" (his words) and this included things like scoop
marks, burned earth (I believe he was referring to Ted Philips'
data on ground traces), radar visual cases and so forth. He was
quite clear in acknowledging that such things were real,
tangible aspects of the phenomenon and could be studied with the
methods of science. But I think his point was that such data in
themselves would not be sufficient to prove the reality of the
phenomenon to a skeptical scientific community, and that only
once scientists began paying more attention to the eyewitness
testimony and looking at the whole picture, with physical
evidence taken as supportive of eyewitness testimony, would we
make any real progress toward "proving" the reality of the
phenomenon. Dr. Mack argued for a science of human experience.

I also recall a time when he was on the Maury Povich show
debating William Cone. He mentioned how the skeptics often
downplayed the significance of what they called "anecdotal
evidence." Mack said that one has to be careful about the
"buzzwords" used by those who resisted taking UFO abductions
seriously. He stated, "Anecdotal evidence translates as human
experience." He expounded on this briefly, and several years
later Budd Hopkins developed this line of thought further, using
the analogy of how expert witnesses are required to present
laboratory findings to a jury in criminal cases and that the
physical evidence in these cases may never actually be seen or
handled by the jury. Rather, jury members depend on the
testimony of others to present the information to them. The
basic point being that almost all physical evidence is in some
sense anecdotal and depends on our ability to trust the
individuals telling us about it.

Mack did sometimes speculate about the UFO abductors coming from
some kind of nonphysical realm, and he talked about the Grays
being "less densely embodied" than human beings, whatever that
means. But he did always stress that they can show up physically
in our world.

Dr. Mack also criticized what he called the "Western Worldview"
on a fairly regular basis, and downplayed the interpretation of
the aliens' abilities as being merely the product of an advanced
science or technology. Rather, he had a somewhat mystical way of
looking at things, which I may never really understand.

However, one aspect of Dr. Mack's worldview that I do agree with
is the notion that the UFO abduction phenomenon could help us to
break down our extreme arrogance or egotism that we have as a
species. We seem to operate as if the universe revolves around
the human species. The apparent nonhuman, yet nonetheless
intelligent and powerful nature of the UFO occupants challenges
that belief. One does not have to be part of the New Age
movement to see that this could be a good thing.

Dr. John Mack, is one of very few authors, like Budd Hopkins and
Whitley Strieber, (I guess Dr. Jacobs also deserves a mention),
whose books and appearances have greatly influenced the way
people think about the UFO abduction phenomenon. I am glad that
I had the opportunity to ask him a question at CSICOP's annual
conference in 1994, and to make a comment supporting his
research when he was on KOMO TV 4's Town Meeting here in Seattle
that same year. I had looked forward to seeing him speak again
someday. I will miss him.

Even so, his writings and recordings of his talks and interviews
survive and will likely continue to be read and listened to for a
long time to come.


My condolences to his family,

David W. Chace









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                             Professor John Mack

From: Bill Weber <wweber1.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 20:58:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:05:50 -0400
Subject: Professor John Mack


My thoughts go out to his family. It reminds me of how short and
fragile life is.


Bill









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                                  John Mack

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 20:09:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:07:17 -0400
Subject: John Mack


Death is always tragic, but more so when sudden and unexpected.
John Mack will be remembered.

It is ironic that a man for whom perception was of such great
importance was killed by a man for whom perception was of so
little importance.

Remember too that there were two victims in this accident.

One is gone, but the other will carry the scars forever.

A black day, indeed.


Kyle King







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                                Dr. John Mack

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:14:42 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:08:53 -0400
Subject: Dr. John Mack


My first thought at the news: DAMN. I didn't know Mack
personally, but I counted him as one of ufology's "good guys."

I'll miss him.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot*yahoo.com)

Explore MTVI @ http://www.mactonnies.com

Posthuman Blues: http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com

New book: "After the Martian Apocalypse"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074348293X








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                                  John Mack

From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:52:58 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:15:16 -0400
Subject: John Mack


Very sad news. I first met him in 2001 in Alabama, and had much
respect for his work, determination and commitment. On behalf of
CCCRN, my condolences to his family and colleagues. He will be
missed.


Paul Anderson








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                                Dr. John Mack

From: Gary Mattteson <mystrius.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:04:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:16:53 -0400
Subject: Dr. John Mack


Although I never met Dr. Mack, his sincerity, and consequently
(for me), his beleiveability came through his books and too rare
appearances on T-V.

Like many fine people, I am convinced his mark on our times will
not be clearly discernable for many years, perhaps, decades.

Gary Mattteson

http://www.geocities.com/sparky_from_nebraska/Unofficial_MUFON-NE








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                                Dr John Mack

From: Don Ecker <decker0726.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:49:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:18:41 -0400
Subject: Dr John Mack


It was with great surprise and shock that we learned of
Dr. Mack's passing on Sept. 28th, 2004.

UFO Magazine sends our deepest condolences to Dr. Mack's family
and colleagues. He will greatly be missed.

Don and Vicki Ecker
William and Nancy Birnes

UFO Magazine
www.ufomag.com








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                                Dr John Mack

From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:52:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:20:05 -0400
Subject: Dr John Mack


May I take this opportunity to offer my sincerest condolences to
Dr Mack's family.

I had the pleasure of meeting and talking with John at a variety
of conferences in many different parts of the world and whether
or not you agreed with his conclusions on the abduction
phenomena, it goes without saying that he was a lovely man.


Philip Mantle








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                       Harvard Professor Dr. John Mack

From: ronald freeman <i.ron1.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:33:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:48:09 -0400
Subject: Harvard Professor Dr. John Mack


Truth has lost a great ally...
In the true light i see a real nobel laureate


Ronald Freeman


"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the
illusion of knowledge." --Daniel Boorstin.








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                        Dr. John Mack Will Be Missed

From: Larry Cekander <larryroyc.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:06:07 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:23:18 -0400
Subject: Dr. John Mack Will Be Missed


It is with great sadness that the staff at the Museum Of The
Unexplained UFO Trace Evidence Research Center and the Bob White
UFO HARDEVIDENCE team send our sincerest condolences to Dr
Mack's family.

I had and opertunity to meet Dr. Mack at a conference in
Laughlin and found him very open and honest in his search for
answers many of us all are seeking in our quest. You knew were
he stood but he would look at other aspects of research.

You might not aggree with his concepts but you respected the man
for his bull dog determination and commitment.

We have lost a guiding light in our field.

Happy trails John.


Larry Cekander
VP Museum of the Unexplained
Reeds Spring, Missouri
http://ufoevidence.conforums.com/index.cgi








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                           Passing Of Dr John Mack

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:40:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:47:59 -0400
Subject: Passing Of Dr John Mack


List,

My condolences to Dr Mack's family, on his untimely death.
A great researcher and author who will be surely missed.


Roy








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                                Dr. John Mack

From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:32:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:57:25 -0400
Subject: Dr. John Mack


We would like to condole with the family of Dr. Mack on his
sudden passing.

Dr. Mack was a very remarkable man and it happened that I
met him recently, in July, at the Barge Inn in Honeystreet,
Wiltshire, where he spent a few hours before he went off
to Glastonbury to give a lecture.

Now he knows the truth...


Joachim Koch
and
Hans-Juergen Kyborg
Germany

----------------------------
http://www.kochkyborg.de
----------------------------







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                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:55:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:10:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Kaeser


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:55:20 -0300
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

<snip>

>>I suppose I was just revealing my general mistrust of people
>>who tinker with the mind while possessing a fully imperfect
>>human mind of their own. Dangerous stuff in my view.

>>Nothing more than that. Cathy will have to explain her comments,
>>as we just _met_. :)

>I don't think the baby [child] should be thrown out with the
>bathwater. Since there is evidence that these abductions begin
>in childhood, it makes sense to start there. Whether a  shrink
>or someone of Budd Hopkins ilk does the task, they both bring
>the same level of expertize to the table. Let's give children
>credit for being a lot more resilient than this present day
>tendency to treat them as if they will self destruct over the
>slightest bit of trauma in their lives. We shove the tooth
>fairy, fairies in general, the Easter bunny,  Pokemon, gods, the
>devil, angels, monsters, ghosts and all sorts of other strange
>entities at them during their early impressionable years, what's
>the big deal about the pictures of a little gray [grey]?

>I have more.

>But again, basing arguments pro or con on NOVA's version of how
>Budd does his interviews with children is unrealistic. Better to
>check with someone who has been present during one of his
>interviews.

I believe the NOVA program was obviously biased, but I also
believe that we have to be very careful when impressionable
children are involved.This is especially true when dealing
with trauma, when a trained medical professional should most
likely be involved.  Can you imagine the legal suits that could
develop if those children grow up and seek counseling later?
 I'm also not sure that you really want to compare the aliem
image to human generated mythological and faith based entities.

That being said, I don't think children should be eliminated
from research, but it has to be handled extremely cautiously.


Steve










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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:56:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:20:47 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Vicente Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:16:59 +0200 (CEST)
>Subject: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>Please find enclosed some recent news from Dr Claude Poher,
><Claude.Poher.nul>

>-----

>You may be interested to know that I got photos of the oils
>flames from the gulf of Mexico platforms confirming the
>interpretation of the Flir camera video made from an aicraft of
>the Mexican Air Force on March 5, 2004. For more details, see:

>http://www.universons.com
>Sincerely
>Claude POHER
>25 September 2004

Just as an important information. Last Sunday in Mexico the
Cantarel oil flames hoax was exposed on national television
during the two-hour live broadcast of the Grandes Misterios TV
show presenting the facts and official information that exposed
and disqualified the hoaxer once for all.

The pro-cover up campaign an it's attempts to discredit the
Mexican Air Force, their officials and Secretary of Defense
after the UFO disclosure failed when the conspiracy was
discovered and exposed on national TV. The reactions of the
Mexican people were massive sending messages to the tv station
of support to the Air Force and officials for opening the UFO
case to the people.

During the broadcast every element of the Campeche case was
analysed, proving and confirming the unknown origin and nature
of the phenomena. The exposition was clear and definitive and
the hoax chapter was closed.

It seems that Mr. Phoer is proving his ignorance of the real and
official facts and trying to distract the attention of some
people from the escence of the case. It's clear that Mr. Phoer
as well as some followers of the Mexican hoaxer are trying
desesperately to revive the conspiracy campaign and, as the
Mexicans saying goes: "They are dancing the dance of the fools."

Many discussionr and debates around this amazing case continue
and it seems that, as usual there, will not be a general
agreement. So much talk, but atin the end the conclusion will be
the same:

Words mean nothing, the phenomena means everything.


Santiago Yturria








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                        Re: Hopkins' Technique - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:11:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:52:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - King


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:39:46 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

<snip>

>Perhaps they should do nothing, and leave it all alone.

>No one can get upset then.


Hi Roy,

T'would be better to leave it alone than to rush in without
understanding and mitigating the risks.

If you feel that I have accused anyone of anything, I
suggest you reread my post.

Implicit in the attempt to wrench truth from a traumatized
subject is the extreme caution that must be exercised. Any
researcher who works with traumatized children likewise should
observe the most rigid precautions.

I do not feel that Budd Hopkins would intentionally insert
suggestion into his subjects.

I am however quite confident that neither he nor any mental
health professional is infallible in preventing it.


Regards,

Kyle







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                        Re: Blimp-Like Object - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:19:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:53:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Blimp-Like Object - King


>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:02:16 -0700
>Subject: Re: Blimp-Like Object

>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 10:09:53 -0500
>>Subject: Blimp-Like Object

>>Forwarded to the UFO UpDates List for its consideration and

>>http://www.fkbureau.org/

>Alfred, Et Al,

>I believe that's a picture of "The Baldwin Dirigible."

Hi Frank,

Yes, and not the whole photograph. The image is striking in its
full form for the harsh contrast which accentuates both the
cloud edge and the craft.

The inset on the cited web page is washed out and much less
impressive.


Best,

Kyle







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                        Re: Hopkins' Technique - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:23:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:55:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - King


>From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:37:25 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 18:42:18 -0300
>>ubject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>Just curious, Kyle. On what information are you and Cathy basing
>>how you deem Budd Hopkins is interviewing these children?

>For my part, none whatsoever - I've always tried to make it
>clear that my knowledge of Ufological matters is sketchy at
>best. Since I haven't even seen the NOVA show in question, I
>know nothing at all about Hopkins' technique or whether the
>documentary gave a misleading impression of it.

>I can say that interviewing children presents a number of very
>specific problems, and that these mainly have to do with the
>fact that there are two perspectives in such an interview - the
>adult's and the child's, and that children do not think like
>adults. A developmental psychologist I once knew, used to begin
>his lectures by observing that it was a mistake to regard
>children as mini-adults, because one would then inevitably be
>forced to the conclusion that they were also incompetent mini-
>adults. Children and adults have different competences, and if
>you don't take this into account then your research is likely to
>produce artifacts.

>It isn't just Ufologists who need to be aware of this -
>psychologists need to be aware of it too, and all to frequently
>they aren't. Cognitive psychologists in particular are
>notoriously prone to misconstrue interactions with children, and
>it's impossible to say to what extent psychological constructs
>such as suggestibility and fantasy-proneness are really
>artifacts arising from such misunderstandings. Indeed, some of
>Loftus' own work is a case in point.

>To what extent Ufology is also affected by this problem is a
>question which would have to be addressed by someone who knows a
>lot more about Ufology than I do.


Hi Cathy,

I couldn't have said it better, and I didn't. Your words
lamentably did not issue from my keyboard. We reach...


Brava,

Kyle








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                      UFOs Over Monte Hermoso Argentina

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:27:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:58:02 -0400
Subject: UFOs Over Monte Hermoso Argentina


Source: InfoBAE.Com
Date: 09.28.04

UFOs Reported In Monte Hermoso

The UFO phenomenon manifested itself last night when several
drivers transiting from Monte Hermoso to Baha--a Blanca saw red
and white lights in the sky for several minutes and later
vanished over the fields.

Drivers on their way back from the beach at Monte Hermoso to
Bahia Blanca reported having seen several flying saucers (UFOs)
on National Hwy 3 and Route 229, which provides access to the
locality of Punta Alta.

Carlos Coria, a resident of Punta Alta and one of the witnesses
to the event, said that "he was driving along Route 3 when to
the left of the road my family and I observed two flying objects
of great [luminous] intensity and whitish in color."

"Afterward, having turned onto Route 229, we also saw red lights
suspended in the air for 15 minutes, but then seemed to turn
off, as though there was a landing strip in the field," Coria
added.

Sources of the Traffic Police of Bahia Blanca reported that
"many people remarked about what had happened, but it isn't
something that can be investigated by the police."

"Several drivers phoned us last night to report that they had
seen UFOs at the 630 km marker of Route 3 in the location known
as Bajo Hondo.", added the spokesman.


Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales - IHU
 Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi









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                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:30:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:02:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Velez


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:55:20 -0300
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:23:55 -0500
>>Subject:  Re: Hopkins' Technique

>>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 18:42:18 -0300
>>>ubject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

><snip>

>>As I said, I agree with Cathy where children are concerned. I
>>am not in a position to question Budd Hopkins' techniques, as
>>I've never seen him in person in a session. My comments were
>>pointed at any researcher who attempts to plumb the depths of
>>the human mind, as my post indicated. I think I noted the risks
>>on both sides of the abduction riddle. Pro or con.

>>I suppose I was just revealing my general mistrust of people
>>who tinker with the mind while possessing a fully imperfect
>>human mind of their own. Dangerous stuff in my view.

>>Nothing more than that. Cathy will have to explain her comments,
>>as we just _met_. :)

>I don't think the baby [child] should be thrown out with the
>bathwater. Since there is evidence that these abductions begin
>in childhood, it makes sense to start there. Whether a  shrink
>or someone of Budd Hopkins ilk does the task, they both bring
>the same level of expertize to the table. Let's give children
>credit for being a lot more resilient than this present day
>tendency to treat them as if they will self destruct over the
>slightest bit of trauma in their lives. We shove the tooth
>fairy, fairies in general, the Easter bunny,  Pokemon, gods, the
>devil, angels, monsters, ghosts and all sorts of other strange
>entities at them during their early impressionable years, what's
>the big deal about the pictures of a little gray [grey]?

>I have more.

>But again, basing arguments pro or con on NOVA's version of how
>Budd does his interviews with children is unrealistic. Better to
>check with someone who has been present during one of his
>interviews.


Hiya Dandy Don, All,

I can't believe that none of the List's older members haven't
complained (vehemently) about having to deal with the subject of
this thread yet _again_!!!! It's becoming like the Roswell
threads and the Alien Autopsy threads. Keerist!

My friend Greg Sandow will have to field any questions about
Hopkins techniques or NOVA - if he wishes to. As for me, I'm
sick to my stomach of repeating myself on the subjects of NOVA
and Budd Hopkins. I have written extensively on both topics in
the past on more occasions than I care to recall. It would be
mind- numbing at this point to repeat it all. It's all at the
UpDates Archive, if anyone cares to read it.

At this point in the history of this List it might be prudent
for recent members to simply search The Archives for a given
subject before launching on yet another re-hash of something that
has already been re-hashed four or five times. It seems a
terrible waste of time, energy and bandwidth to have cover the
same bit of real estate over and over ad nausium.

I refuse to do it.

Been dere don dat. Read The Archives. It's all there in black
and white.

This is a perfect example of why I no longer wish to spend so
much of my time and energy involved in 'Internet ufoology.' I'd
rather beat my head repeatedly with a hard Salami. Same effect,
but at least the method of execution of my remaining brain cells
would be new.  ;)


Best to all,

John Velez








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             Argentine Police & Locals Chase "Strange Creature"

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:57:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:05:39 -0400
Subject: Argentine Police & Locals Chase "Strange Creature"



Source: InfoBAE.com
Date: September 28, 2004

Argentina: Police And Locals Chase After "Strange Creature"


They have not been able to deterimne if it is a man or an
animal. The fact is that it prowls around houses, has killed
several hens and left enigmatic traces...

Police and locals sought a strange creature at Colonia El=C3--a in
the eastern reaches of this territory in the province of Entre
R=C3--os.

The police action came about when a neighbor reported that a
person or large animal caused considerable damage in a henhouse
behind his home, where it killed several hens. A footprint, hair
and other traces were found at the site, which would give the
claim credibility.

Oscar Resteinor, a resident in this rural area, reported to the
Colonia El=C3--a's sheriff's office that for 20 days now he has
been witnessing the presence of this being, with clearly
abnormal characteristics, prowling around his home. He claims
that he has not been able to identify if its an animal or a
person. It would have had yellowish hair of considerable length,
claw-like nails, and it left large footprints, walking with its
hind legs as would a human or primate.

After the attack to his henhouse, Resteinor and his family and
neighbors began to keep a watch in order to catch the strange
being, according to the "Analisis Digital" web portal.

The Entre Rios police admitted to having found several traces
resembling footprints and hairs measuring between 6 to 10
centimeters in length, as well as a claw or fingernail embedded
in a tree trunk.

Plaster casts were made of the footpritns, which were described
as manlike, but larger and wider than normal.


Translation (c) 2004 Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 29

             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:35:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:06:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:48:14 -0400
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

<snip>

>But anyway, your suggestion that it was sitting in a box with
>papers and much weight on it from the time the hoaxer put it in
>the box until Shandara found it doesn't ring true to me. I have
>examined the box... and looked at the other file folders (which,
>as I recall, had many pink withdrawal sheets... documents never
>given to the archives). The documents in folders stand on edge.
>The file box holds the documents and folders vertically. There
>is no weight or pressure.

Dr. Maccabee,

I'm surprised at you. Surely you must not believe this.

A sheet of paper... creased by prior folding... placed into a
hanging file folder with other sheets of paper, will be
flattened by the pressure exerted on the sides of the folders'
contents. Since a file folder is simply a folded sheet of card
stock, the bottom is in the form of a valley. Gravity pulls the
folder and its contents down, which compresses the lower edges
of all the documents in a folder. The downward pressure of
gravity also draws the hanging means (hooks) closer together. It
is these forces in combination which compress the contents. This
is easily confirmed with a small file cabinet or box, a hanging
file folder, a stack of paper, and a previously folded sheet of
onionskin stationery. Mine didn't have a noticeable crease after
3 hours.

If the noted document was the only folded sheet in its vicinity,
the pressure of the adjacent documents would be greatest where
the creases were the deepest, resulting in even more rapid
flattening at those points.

Weight from above is not required to un-crease a sheet of
onionskin paper. Gravity and a little time are sufficient.

Even if the folders were not hanging, but stood on edge in the
box, the contents would not stand, but slump to one side or
both, again applying pressure to anything not flat already. The
creases would be pressed out of the onionskin by adjacent
sheets..."peer pressure". :)


Best Regards,

Kyle







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 29

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 39

From: John Hayes <John.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 20:57:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:10:50 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 9 Number 39


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan.nul>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 9, Number 39
September 29, 2004
Editor: Joseph Trainor

E-mail: Masinaigan.nul
Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/


SAUCER CRASHES IN
TIERRA DEL FUEGO

      A large saucer crashed on the island of Tierra del
Fuego, the southernmost part of Argentina, leaving
evidence of its impact but no traces of any wreckage.
      "Several residents of Ushuaia," Argentina's
southernmost city, "saw a fireball fall from the sky last
night (Tuesday, September 14, 2004) after 8 p.m.,
resulting in an incessant number of phone calls to
emergency services centers."
      "One of the witnesses happened to be Dr. Rogelio
Acevedo, a geologist who is a scientific researcher at
CADIC, who at the time was taking his son to School No. 13
and saw the 'bolide' at the level of Le Martial Glacier
but behind it."
      "The scientist said it was a mass of white, green and
yellow hues, although this is the least important aspect.
Regarding the possibility that it could be a flare, he
dismissed this because of its size."
      "But this man, an expert in his field, was not the
only one to witness the space phenomenon.  Although many
people contacted Municipal Civil Defense to ask questions,
they said the colors were of different shades."
      "A resident of the outskirts of Ushuaia maintains
that he can determine the area where the object fell,
since he has cattle in the area.  The man claimed having
heard an explosion after seeing the object fall."
      "The possibility that it could have been a meteorite
has not been dismissed."
      The newspaper La Otra Realidad reported, "The strange
object that fell from the sky a few days ago behind the
mountain range of Le Martial Glacier, and which was seen
by dozens of residents of the Ushuaia area, caused damage
to at least 150 square meters of forested area within the
National Park, but no physical remains were found on the
ground following the impact."
      "A 5-kilometer (3-mile) long expedition on foot
conducted by Fernando Garcia and Roberto Ceballos, authors
of the photographs published today (Monday, September 20,
2004) in the newspaper Botella al Mar, confirmed the
existence of '30 to 40 uprooted trees, some shattered in
half and other exploded, all of them lying on the ground
in a south-north direction.'"
      "Unlikely objects were found in the forested area
located behind the Le Martial Glacier, where the luminous
objects reported last Tuesday and Wednesday (September 15,
2004) allegedly fell."
      "The objects were recovered by the Special Services
Division of (Argentina's) provincial police, who scoured
the area.  The objects and some photos taken in the area
shall be submitted for analysis by experts of the Centro
Austral de Investigaciones Cientificas, or CADIC
(Translated: Southern Center for Scientific
Investigations--J.T.)."
      "The survey in Vale Andorra and the Le Martial
Glacier--indicated as the sites of the fireball's impact--
will continue today, weather permitting.  The new project
expedition may include scientists from CADIC interested in
discovering in situ the conditions where these strange
elements were found and which drew the attention of police
researchers.  It is worth noting that Dr. Acevedo, a
member of the research center, was one of the witnesses to
the fall of the strange luminous bodies from the skies
over Ushuaia."
      "On Tuesday night, between 8:30 and 9 p.m., over a
hundred residents of Ushuaia alerted the Civil Defense and
the police about 'fireballs' falling behind the Le Martial
Glacier."
      "The phenomenon was also seen on Wednesday by
residents of the city of Rio Grande," located about 100
kilometers (60 miles) north of Ushuaia on the other side
of the mountains.  There was even a report yesterday
(Thursday, September 16, 2004) of a new luminous object
falling from the sky around 9 o'clock at night."
      "The most curious detail, which was made known
yesterday (Saturday, September 18, 2004), was that the
damage was caused in the upper part of the trees--some 8
meters (24 feet) above the ground--and that no parts were
found on the ground that could serve as evidence of the
collision of some strange object."
      "It is reported that the pasture grass appears as
though having been cut by a lawnmower, and that the
imprint of a long trail was left behind, as if the object
had been dragged along several meters."
      Eyewitness Fernando Garcia reported, "Like everyone
else in the city, I heard the story of lights falling from
the sky last Tuesday and Wednesday.  The fact is that I
didn't give it much importance.  On Saturday, I heard a
journalist explaining that the police officers who had
visited the site didn't find anything strange but had
indeed found flattened trees.  And this was strange to me.
Then I phoned my friend Roberto (Ceballos), a backwoodsman
who knows the area well, and asked him to come with me."
      Garcia and Ceballos hiked for "two-and-a-half to
three hours" to reach the impact site, located at Canadon
Negra creek in the Vale de Andorra, north of Le Martial
Glacier.  They found, Garcia said, "150 square meters of
toppled woods.  Imagine four walls and, in the middle, all
of the trees are overturned, fallen, and then piled
exactly from north to south.  All of them turned toward
the same place.  In the north, where the object presumably
fell, the tree trunks were sheared off at a height of 6 to
8 meters (20 to 24 feet), from greater to lesser, as
though the object came in at a slant."  (See the
Argentinian newspapers El Sureno for September 15, 2004,
"Fireball crashes behind Argentine glacier;" for September
17, 2004, "Unlikely 'objects' found in area where
'fireballs' fell;" and for September 19, 2004, "Behind Le
Martial Glacier."  Also Botella al Mar for September 22,
2004, "Fireball crash site." Muchas gracias a Scott
Corrales, Guillermo Gimenez, Christian Quintero y Jose
Martinez para estos articulos de diario.)


UFO PHOTOGRAPHED IN
SANTA FE, ARGENTINA

      On Monday, September 20, 2004, at 9:20 p.m., "a UFO
was photographed by sheer chance" by a resident of Santa
Fe, Argentina.  The object was spotted "over the northern
part of Santa Fe, as he was taking photos of the movements
and effects in the sky" caused by "the searchlight
employed during the Sixth Biennial Youth Art Festival held
at UNL.  That was when a light crossed his path."
      "He didn't know what it was until he saw the 17
photos taken.  Upon enlarging them, he realized that it
was a solid object with a metallic center.  Even though"
the outline of the UFO "sort of lacked definition and
sharpness."
      "In other photos of the searchlight, a ray of light
could be seen coming down from above.  This appeared to
the right of" the UFO, and "the enlarged photo shows the
details.  Was it a UFO investigating the searchlight or
just a quirk of nature?"
      Santa Fe, capital of the province of the same name,
is located 385 kilometers (240 miles) northwest of Buenos
Aires, the capital of Argentina.  (Muchas gracias a Scott
Corrales y Gloria Coluchi para esta historia.)


UNDERWATER ALIEN BASE
OFF PORTUGAL'S COAST?

      A Portuguese ufologist has raised speculations about
a mysterious underwater structure on the Atlantic Ocean
floor about 50 kilometers (30 miles) west of Lisboa, the
capital of Portugal.
      According to Gregorio Sao Xavier, "Portugal's famous
ufologist, Jose Garrido, said spy satellites have found
anomalous 'geologic faults' on the sea floor just off
shore from Oeiras," a suburb of Lisboa.
      "Oeiras is the place where NATO has the RHQ SOUTHLANT
(Regional Headquarters, Allied Forces South Atlantic--
J.T.), a major subordinate command under the Supreme
Allied Commander (SACLANT) in Norfolk, Virginia," Gregorio
reported, "The importance of this NATO base (since 1982,
the head base of IBERLAND or regional defense--G.S.X.) was
displayed in the coordination of operations involving
30,000 (NATO) troops from May to May 15, 2000.  The
startling importance of this base for Portugal is public
knowledge, even if it is low profile in the media."
      "In March 2003, the eve of the war in Iraq, Portugal
supported President (George W.) Bush in order to keep"
away "Spanish proposals to relocate the base to Spain," he
added.
      "As the story goes, the astronauts aboard the
International Space Station (ISS) had noticed a large
abnormal geological formation just off the Portuguese
coast near Lisboa.  Then the imaging satellites scanned
the area several more times to get more detailed images.
What was found was a huge and apparently artificial
depression on the ocean's bottom and near natural geologic
faults.  The form of the depression resembles a definite
triangle with just over a 1,000-square-kilometer area.
The contour of the image is very similar to a B-2 Stealth
bomber."
      According to Gregorio, "this formation is
geologically recent, not matching the glacial profiles" of
western Europe during the Pleistocene Period "when the
ocean receded and therefore excludes the possibility of
human construction.  Besides being too big to be an
artifact of human technology at the time."  (That is, the
end of the Pleistocene Period around 10,000 B.C.--J.T.)
      The undersea depression has generated a keen debate
in ufological circles in Portugal.  (Email Report)
(Editor's Comment: There's a possibility that this
undersea formation was constructed before the end of the
Pleistocene ice ages, at a time when that stretch of ocean
floor was dry land.  It then would have been flooded by
the Atlantic as seas rose worldwide during the meltdown of
the Pleistocene glaciers.  Alien base or heretofore
unknown civilization?  You decide.)



UFOs SIGHTED NEAR
LISMORE, N.S.W.

      On Monday, September 20, 2004, "at 11 p.m., a UFO
sighting was made," eyewitness C.B. reported.  "The
sighting took place around 6 kilometers (4 miles)
southeast of Lismore, New South Wales, Australia.  An
unidentified bright light was seen hovering in fixed
position about 5 kilometers (3 miles) away but above the
sky line.  The object changed frequently in colour from
red, orange, yellow and finally to white.  It would then
just disappear from sight, lasting between two to five
seconds, and then reappeared."
      "This event went on for half an hour before the light
in the night sky vanished."  For witnesses, "there was
only myself, my father and my sister, that I know of so
far."  (Email Form Report)


V-SHAPED UFO SPOTTED
IN TOWYN, NORTH WALES

      On Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 12:45 a.m.,
eyewitness Beverly Heron was "on the beach and sea at
Towyn, North Wales," UK, when "a small light was seen to
speed across the sky at great speed.  Then a V-shape of
light followed at great speed.  There was no sound.  We
watched the V-shape for about 15 seconds; then it
disappeared.  But we knew that it wasn't any kind of plane
we were seeing."
      "The sighting was witnessed by myself and my husband.
It left me stunned."
      Beverly described the UFO as "a V-shape outlined in
white lights.  Very high speed and on approach was moving
in the sky faster than a normal plane and without any
sound."  (Email Form Report)


NEW CROP CIRCLE FOUND
IN SASKATCHEWAN

      On Wednesday, September 22, 2004, "a large circle in
barley, approximately 35 metres (114 feet) in diameter"
was found in Humboldt, Saskatchewan province, Canada
(population 5,074) "by a farmer out harvesting.  It was
slightly elliptical with an offset center and a
counterclockwise lay.  Many plants are recovering due to
phototropism."
      "The case is being investigated by Canadian Crop
Circle Research Network-Sakatchewan.  This is the 13th
reported crop circle formation in Canada discovered during
2004," said Canadian cerealogist Paul Anderson.
      Humboldt, Sask. is on Provincial Highway 5
approximately 110 kilometers (60 miles) east of Saskatoon.
(Many thanks to Paul Anderson of CCCRN for this report.)


MYSTERY BOOMS HEARD
IN FORT WAYNE, INDIANA

      "Hundreds of people have called the Fort Wayne
(Indiana, population 205,727) Mayor's Office with reports
of loud booms, primarily in the northeastern part of the
city."
      "Officials have been able to establish a pattern and
possible source, so residents no longer need call.
However, at this time, no one has admitted responsibility
for the local blasts, so an exact source has yet to be
determined.  The city will be keeping tabs on the possible
source until it determines who is responsible."
      "The Mayor's Office says the loud booms pose no
threat to public safety."
      "Justin Brugger, the Northeast Neighborhood
Specialist at the Mayor's Office, said he took over 100
calls on Wednesday," September 1, 2004.
      "'All we know is that there's a large concentration
of people's houses shaking, violently, along Lake Avenue,'
Brugger said.  He said that one resident says the sounds
started four months ago (May 2004)."
      "The complaints appear to be confined to
neighborhoods between State Boulevard and Lake Avenue--
from Anthony Boulevard to Maysville Road."
      "A lot of theories are floating around out there--
nearby construction, railroads, cars being crushed at the
Omnisource recycling facility, but long-time residents say
the sound is new."
      "'It just sounded like a plane crash or dynamite
explosion or something--I jumped out of bed when I heard
it,' said Al Poffenberger, who lives on the corner of Lake
and Kensington.  'I've lived here for 35 years, and I've
never heard anything like it.'"
      On Tuesday, August 31, 2004, a college student
spotted a triangular UFO in the area of the mysterious
booms.  In a report to the National UFO Reporting Center,
he stated, "Well, I go to school in Fort Wayne, Ind.
Anyways, I drive about an hour to school, so I was going
home on State Road 30 towards Warsaw, Indiana (population
12,415).  About 9:15 p.m., I saw an object while driving.
At first, I didn't really pay any attention to it, but
then I noticed it looked funny.  It was hovering over some
trees off to the right of the highway.  Then, as I came up
on it, it darted over the highway off into the field at my
left."
      The student described the UFO as "triangular in
shape, a white-blue light at each end of the triangle,
and, in the middle, it had a red light that flashed white
around it, almost like a strobe light.  I had pulled off
the road like an idiot, but I wanted to know exactly what
I was looking at.  Not too much traffic on either side of
the highway that night, so it was pretty quiet outside.
Very strange, to say the least."  (See the WANE-TV news
broadcast of September 2, 2004.  Many thanks to Daniel
Wilson for this news story.)
(Editor's Comment:  It appears that the "mystery booms"
were dynamite explosions related to underground
construction at the FEMA facility east of Fort Wayne.
Then the UFO came to have a look.  But why?)

      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us in seven days
for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the newspaper that goes
home--UFO Roundup."  See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2004 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO
Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that
they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue in which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com

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UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert
Rosales), Filer's Files, Oz Files, UFO News UK.
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 29

             Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:00:01 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:15:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents -


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:48:14 -0400
>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents


>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:42:06 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 23:00:21 -0400
>>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

>>>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:22:15 +0100
>>>>Subject: Re: Authenticity Meters Added To MJ-12 Documents

><snip>

>>>If you claim the Cutler-Twining memo does, I would retort that
>>>enough suspicion and distrust has been attached to that since
>>>1987. To say nothing of an official 10-point disclaimer from the
>>>National Archives.

>>>In other words, it is not a case that many "are not from

>>>I have a comment about the CT memo.

><snip>

>>>So I examined closely the CT memo. It is onion skin, with two
>>>definite crease lines across as if it had been tri-folded at one
>>>time. However the crease lines were pressed flat.

>>I recall you telling me that back in the 80's. But the
>>horizontal triple folds are just what a hoaxer might do to
>>smuggle a fake CT Memo into the Archives folded like a letter in
>>his jacket or coat.

>Perhaps.

><snip>

>>Then the AF agent or the DIA-SAC Colonel known to have been
>>involved in MJ-12 could have smuggled the sheet into the
>>Archives, then planted the location clues using the "Ethiopian
>>postcard" that was sent so that the planted document could be
>>"found."

>You refer to the postcard that essentially gave the box location
>of the document. But Shandara and Moore did not "connect the
>dots" until after they had found the document by a "brute-force"
>search of all the boxes.

>>As for the creases, once they were noticed surely the
>>hoaxer would have tried to flatten them out using a fingernail
>>in the Archives as this would be much too suspicious since the
>>"original" carbon copy in the "NSC" (as it was meant to be by
>>forged imitation) would always have been flat in a file folder
>>and never folded as if sent in the mail in an envelope. Then
>>the hoaxer would have made sure the flimsy onionskin sheet was
>>flattened further between heavy stacks of normal weight paper in
>>the file box it was found in so that it would have months of
>>paper-flattening pressure before being "found".

>We don't know that the document wouldn't have been folded by the
>person acting in Cutler's behalf to place it in a business
>envelop for transmission to Twining... probably by special
>courier.

>But anyway, your suggestion that it was sitting in a box with
>papers and much weight on it from the time the hoaxer put it in
>the box until Shandara found it doesn't ring true to me. I have
>examined the box... and looked at the other file folders (which,
>as I recall, had many pink withdrawal sheets... documents never
>given to the archives). The documents in folders stand on edge.
>The file box holds the documents and folders vertically. There
>is no weight or pressure.

I have noted many reasons for considering the CT memo genuine,
some of which are in my  Majestic 12 Documents Update on my
website:

www.stanfriedman.com

The Archives, to their credit, revised their 10 point list in
response to my pointing out such errors as the CT memo doesn't
say NSC meeting only already scheduled meeting.

The GAO did find examples of the use of TOP SECRET RESTRICTED,
there are onionskin carbons that do NOT have the claimed Eagle
Watermark, etc etc.

Don't forget that Klass paid me 1000$ for proving him wrong
about the typeface, that it wasn't known until Bob Todd received
a copy of a memo from Cutler to James Lay saying keep things
moving out of my in basket, that Cutler was out of the country
on the date.

It wasn't known until years after that, when I had declassified
for me the memo from Lay to Cutler while Cutler was overseas
saying he was doing just that, and that Lay met with Ike on the
day in question in the early afternoon and then had a phone
conversation with him around 4:30.

How did the forger know that Cutler was gone (no signature and
no /s/) George Elsey, who worked for Truman the whole time he
was in the White House, pointed out to me that Lay and Cutler
sat next to each other at NSC meetings, that of course Lay would
have put out a memo in Cutler's name informing Twining of a
slight change of Plans.

The Watermark, only visible when held in hand up to a light or
window, was for Dictation Onionskin by Fox paper. Only made in
bid lots.. not in stores.

Larry Bland (Marshall Archivist), when we discussed the MJ-12
documents in person indicated that yes, he could have found an
old typewriter and old paper... it was the detailed content that
would have made it very difficult to create phony documents that
would stand up despite CDA's false claims to the contrary.

I won't go into the slant red pencil mark through the security
marking, the use of a phrase similar to the last one in another
CT memo( in a different archive), the absence of a Control
Number... etc., etc., etc.

Claiming fraud is easy for armchair theorists.

The preponderance of the evidence as noted in my book, my 108
page final report, the update etc etc indicates the CT, TF, EBE
are genuine.

I have also noted the falsity of a bunch of Tim Cooper related
documents.


Stan Friedman







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2004 >
   Sep > Sep 29

                 Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread -

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:10:39 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:19:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread -


>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:59:07 +0000
>Subject: Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:55:40 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Irritating Reoccurring Hopkins Thread

<snip>

>I suggest those of you who are reading into the NOVA transcript
>cease and desist in condemning Budd for allegedly leading the
>child witness until you acquire a proper understanding of what
>happened.

>The transcript (any transcript) does not properly convey the
>facts. Read Errol's detailed post by Budd about the
>circumstances:

>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/sep/m26-008.shtml

>The NOVA producer twisted, distorted, and manipulated the film
>footage by editing out significant portions that would have
>given a totally different impression and therefore taking things
>out of context, and clearly they were very hostile toward the
>abduction subject.

>They were using propaganda and biased presentation techniques
>that are all too familiar to those of us who have done many
>[pseudo] documentary programs. I remember writing an angry
>letter to the producer after watching the program, because their
>sleazy tactics were very obvious to me.

>Budd does not - repeat - does not lead either adult or child
>witnesses and is sensitive to the issues involved in working
>with children.

>As I've said before, I have sat in on quite a few hypnosis
>sessions that he conducted, including some with young children,
>and I saw nothing to criticize. And I do know something about
>human psychology since I was once Senior Abstracts Editor for
>the American Psychological Association.

>Like Greg Sandow, who knows Budd well, I am not saying that Budd
>is perfect. A professional psychologist (hypnotherapist) friend
>and I sat in on one session where, the friend said, Budd did
>something relatively minor that was not in the best interests of
>the subject. But it was not a major issue either.

>I know Budd to be a very caring, conscientious person, who works
>hard to do what is right and proper, and he regularly seeks
>advice and counsel from professionals.


I have spent quite a bit of time with Budd, listened to tapes,
etc, as well as heard him speak of his work with children and am
in full agreement with Dick Hall. I know of no one more objective
and careful and caring than Budd in dealing with abductees, kids
etc.


Stan Friedman








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   Sep > Sep 29

               Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:15:56 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:22:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - Ledger


>From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:55:59 -0500
>Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules

>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>>To:  ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:32:02 -0300
>>Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules

<snip>

>The Johnson Space Center is located in Clear Lake City, south
>of _Houston_.

>There are no modules constructed at JSC, thin-skinned or otherwise.
>JSC is a training facility for astronauts.

>NASA plays a huge role in the local economy of Clear Lake City, but
>the proliferation of unmanned probe and satellite missions has made
>the JSC...home of Mission Control...mainly a monitoring center for
>the ISS.

>Many jobs have been lost, but not because of manufacturing. That is
>done elsewhere.

>The chief cause has been the grounding of the Shuttle.

That should have read, constructed in Texas, Kyle. Whereever
they were manufactured the inference was that safety was
subordinate to some manufacturer's bottom line. This from
memory, from a press release about 5 years ago, from NASANews.
Also I think I've seen reference to this by Dr. Robert Zubrin
[sp].

These newer multi layered, inflatable modules can take a hit by
a marble sized meteoroid due to it's Kevlar construction and
apparently some of them carry  recyclable water in internal
jacket as well.


Don Ledger







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                        Re: Hopkins' Technique - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:11:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:23:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - King


>From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:39:46 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

<snip>

>Perhaps they should do nothing, and leave it all alone.

>No one can get upset then.


Hi Roy,

T'would be better to leave it alone than to rush in without
understanding and mitigating the risks.

If you feel that I have accused anyone of anything, I
suggest you reread my post.

Implicit in the attempt to wrench truth from a traumatized
subject is the extreme caution that must be exercised. Any
researcher who works with traumatized children likewise should
observe the most rigid precautions.

I do not feel that Budd Hopkins would intentionally insert
suggestion into his subjects.

I am however quite confident that neither he nor any mental
health professional is infallible in preventing it.


Regards,

Kyle







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             Who Are the UFO Abductees & Ritual Abuse Survivors?

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:34:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:46:18 -0400
Subject: Who Are the UFO Abductees & Ritual Abuse Survivors?


Supernatural Support Groups: Who are the UFO Abductees and
Ritual Abuse Survivors?

Copyright: Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion
September 14, 2004

http://www.nidsci.org/articles/abductees.php

Christopher D. Bader
Baylor University

ABSTRACT

In the 1980s two different groups emerged that exhibited a
strikingly similar combination of the quasi-religious and
psychotherapeutic UFO abductees and ritual abuse survivors. Both
movements focused upon healing members from victimization they
experienced at the hands of beings of often supernatural power.

Further, both movements attempt to use techniques developed in
psychotherapeutic circles, such as hypnosis, art therapy, and
role-playing, to recover 'repressed' memories at the hands
of these abusers.

This paper presents the results of surveys of fifty-five UFO
abductees and fifty-one ritual abuse survivors. Both UFO
abductees and ritual abuse survivors are compared to the general
population in terms of their gender breakdown, age, race,
marital status, education, and occupation. It is determined that
the demographics of these two fledgling movements closely mirror
those of other NRMs.

--

Full paper at above URL









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                          Secrecy News -- 09/28/04

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:48:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:29:19 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 09/28/04


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2004, Issue No. 85
September 28, 2004


**      CIA PREVIOUSLY DISCLOSED HISTORICAL INTEL BUDGET FIGURES
**      WHITE HOUSE OPPOSES INTEL BUDGET DISCLOSURE
**      CLASSIFICATION REVIEW BOARD PROPOSED, SET ASIDE
**      IAEA REPORT ON LIBYA
**      CRS ON NUCLEAR TERRORISM, BUNKER BUSTERS


CIA PREVIOUSLY DISCLOSED HISTORICAL INTEL BUDGET FIGURES

A few years ago, the Central Intelligence Agency officially
declassified and released CIA budget figures for fiscal years
1963 through 1966 in a document found at the National Archives.

This is a fact of legal significance, since Acting Director (now
Deputy Director) of Central Intelligence John E. McLaughlin
declared under oath earlier this month that CIA budget figures
had "never been publicly identified," and that such secrecy
should be perpetuated indefinitely.

The tug of war over disclosure of historical intelligence budget
figures is being played out in a Freedom of Information lawsuit
sponsored by the Federation of American Scientists seeking
release of aggregate and individual intelligence agency budget
totals for the years 1947 through 1970.  CIA opposes such
disclosure "because its release would tend to reveal
intelligence methods."

The discovery of the prior budget figure declassifications, by
Villanova University political scientist and archival sleuth
Prof. David Barrett, legally constitutes "waiver" of the CIA's
claimed exemption from disclosure.  Or so we argue.

The newly discovered declassified CIA document, entitled "Cost
Reduction Program," is attached to our September 27 Response to
CIA's Cross Motion for Summary Judgment.  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/1947/sa092704.pdf


WHITE HOUSE OPPOSES INTEL BUDGET DISCLOSURE

Intelligence budget disclosure is nothing less than the key to
breaking down the excessive secrecy that degrades U.S.
intelligence, the 9/11 Commission concluded unanimously (at p.
416 of its final report).

The bipartisan sponsors of pending intelligence reform
legislation in the Senate agreed, and included a provision to
routinely require such disclosure.

The White House does not agree.  A Statement of Administration
Policy today singled out budget disclosure as one of the
elements it considers objectionable in the Senate bill.

"The Administration is also concerned that the Committee bill
mandates disclosure of sensitive information about the
intelligence budget," the White House statement said.

"The legislation should not compel disclosure, including to the
Nation's enemies in war, of the amounts requested by the
President, and provided by the Congress, for the conduct of the
Nation's intelligence activities."  See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2004/09/wh092804.pdf

"We have not heard a compelling argument for maintaining overall
[budget] classification," said 9/11 Commissioner John F. Lehman
at a congressional hearing earlier this month.


CLASSIFICATION REVIEW BOARD PROPOSED, SET ASIDE

An amendment to establish an Independent National Security
Classification Board to mediate disputes over secrecy was
introduced during Senate deliberation over the pending
intelligence reform bill on September 27, but was then set aside
at the request of the bill's sponsors.

The introduction of the amendment, however, provided the
occasion for an extended colloquy on the defects of secrecy.

"The 1946 Atomic Energy Act established the principle that some
information is born classified," recalled Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR),
a sponsor of the amendment.

"There are certainly important sources and pieces of information
that must never be compromised. But over the years, millions and
millions of documents that weren't born classified have
inherited or adopted or married into a classification."

Sen. Susan Collins responded that "The administration has
expressed grave reservations about the amendment as it is now
drafted."  That is not necessarily an objection, but she asked
that it be set aside, and so it was.

Along the way, the proposed amendment garnered one additional
Republican co-sponsor, Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX).

See the September 27 Senate debate on the matter here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2004/s092704.html


IAEA REPORT ON LIBYA

An August 30 report of the International Atomic Energy Agency on
Libya's nuclear weapons-related activities, originally
restricted in distribution, has been "de-restricted" and is now
available here (thanks to J):

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/libya/iaea0804.pdf


CRS ON NUCLEAR TERRORISM, BUNKER BUSTERS

The Congressional Research Service, perhaps unable to endure
independent scrutiny, still refuses to make its products
directly accessible to the public.  But two new CRS reports are
now available here.

"Nuclear Terrorism: A Brief Review of Threats and Responses,"
September 22, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32595.pdf

"'Bunker Busters': Sources of Confusion in the Robust Nuclear
Earth Penetrator Debate," September 22, 2004:

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/crs/RL32599.pdf



_______________________________________________
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
secrecy_news-request.nul
with "subscribe" in the body of the message.

OR email your request to saftergood.nul

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

Secrecy News has an RSS feed at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood.nul
voice:  (202) 454-4691






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             Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 20:48:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 06:30:16 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked - Warren


>From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:40:25 -0500
>Subject: UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked

>Source: The Triangle - A Student Newspaper at
>        Drexel University Philadelphia

>http://www.thetriangle.org/news/2004/09/23/SciTech/Ufo-science.Investigatio=
ns.Debunked-729532.shtml

>09-23-04


>UFO 'Science' Investigations Debunked
>The Iron Skeptic
>By Aaron Sakulich


>If you're anything like I am, you would probably be overwhelmed
>with disgust and outrage at seeing an article about UFOs in the
>science and technology section of a newspaper. While on the one
>hand the details of "Ufology" don't belong in any reputable
>paper, a close look at the interaction between science and the
>investigation of UFO claims is very enlightening.

<snip>

Fellow Listers,

Here is my letter to Mr. Sakulich in response to his article:



Dear Mr. Sakulich,

In reading your article, "UFO 'Science' Investigations
Debunked," I found my self scratching my head and pondering your
position on the subject, as at least "for me" it didn't seem
clear where you were taking me; in addition there were many
falsehoods, which I will address:

First, you began your article by stating, "If you're anything
like I am, you would probably be overwhelmed with disgust and
outrage at seeing an article about UFOs in the science and
technology section of a newspaper," and then towards the end you
write," Scientists are squandering opportunities to explore the
unexplained, possibly discovering new meteorological phenomena,
new chemical or biological phenomena (once, even swamp gas was
not understood)." And you conclude your article by stating, "No
one is better suited to investigating UFOs than scientists, and,
as a whole, no group has ever neglected the duty of their chosen
livelihoods more than scientists have in refusing to treat such
matters with an impartial investigation." If in fact you believe
the latter to be true, then your previously mentioned feelings
in the first paragraph of your piece appear to be contradictory
in my view.

If you feel scientists are the best suited to investigate the
UFO phenomenon, then what section of the newspaper do you feel
is appropriate for the publisher=92s to place it in? Moreover, if
you feel the subject matter garners scientific inquiry, then why
would it evoke feelings of disgust if it were in fact placed in
a section of a newspaper who=92s topic was science? Pardon my
confusion, but I don=92t get it!

In your second paragraph, you state that, "The first sightings
of UFOs in America occurred around 1896"; assuming that you are
using the term "UFO" as "Unidentified Flying Objects," then this
declaration is false. As you mention yourself further in your
own article, "A large portion of UFO sightings are surely
misidentification of aircraft or weather balloons, or the
erroneous spotting of planets, stars, or other astronautic
phenomena"; certainly, the latter occurred before 1896, and
separately, "there were" more "craft-like UFO" sightings prior
to that year. You further state that these UFOs "were reported
hovering above every state in the union"; this of course is not
true either.

In your third paragraph you state, "Scientists of the time,
although racing to discover the secret of flight, did not pay
much attention to this wave of sightings, and with good reason:
Over time, a huge number of them proved to be hoaxes,
misidentifications of regular phenomena, or ploys to increase
tourism to certain small towns . . .. " Can you cite any
examples, or name any scientists, or bodies thereof that held
this mindset?

Your fourth paragraph was also very confusing; you previously
gave cause to the 1896/97 airship sightings to "hoaxes,
misidentifications of regular phenomena, or ploys to increase
tourism to certain small towns"; then you seem to change
directions and name "mass hysteria" as the main culprit.
Directly following that declaration, you state that the
"prevailing feeling at the time was that some backwoods tinkerer
would build a working aircraft in some remote shanty, and then
unleash his invention on the world."  If in fact that was the
popular belief, that seems hardly any cause for "mass hysteria.=92

Your fifth paragraph was indeed amusing, as it seems now that
you=92ve changed the reason for the UFO sightings to
"hallucinations."  You wrote," as soon as this =91lone inventor=92
theory was firmly implanted in the minds of the American
populace, people began "seeing" UFOs and occasionally meeting
their inventor, who took on the name Wilson over time. Wilson,
like the Jersey Devil, never existed . . .." Here you=92ve made
claims that contradict what was quoted from witnesses that was
published in various Texas newspapers, but cite no data/evidence
to support your theorem.

Is the reader to believe that "all the witnesses" who were
quoted in separate newspaper reports were having a mass
hallucination? Or perhaps, they were all of nefarious character
(including the sheriff in one instance) and were just telling
tall stories? Since the events took place over 100 years ago,
and the people involved can=92t be interviewed, and what remains,
is the written accounts of what transpired, and there are
multiple accounts in separate small town newspapers of a man by
the name of "Wilson," who claimed to be involved with the
"airships," it seems, in my view, that there is more "evidence"
to support that ideology, (his existence) then to go against
it=97unless you=92ve have some information that you didn=92t cite in
your article.

In the same paragraph you said, "The first wave of =91modern=92 UFO
sightings began in 1947." More accurately it should be said that
this was the first wave that drew the public=92s attention in a
grandiose way=97UFOs had been reported since the beginning of the
war (Foo Fighters), and we=92re investigated by the military. I
assume the pilot you are referring to is, "Kenneth Arnold", if
so, he was not the first to witness a UFO in =9247, and his
sighting was over the state of Washington, near Mt. Rainier, not
in the Midwest. Also the Air Force did not exist when Arnold had
his sighting.

In your sixth paragraph, you said, "The Air Force played a
peculiar role in UFO investigations until the early 1970s."
Hardly peculiar, since we had "unknowns" flying in our airspace,
and in many instances, near "high-security military
installations." Also the Air Force concluded their
investigation, and terminated Project Blue Book in 1969, with
the culmination of the Condon Report=97not the =9170=92s. You also
wrote, "They were petrified [the Air Force] that what people
were reporting were actually Soviet weapons . . .."  Petrified
is hardly the verb one would use in describing the Air Force=92s
concern over the UFOs occupying our airspace at that time,
however; records do indicate that since we didn=92t know the
origin of the UFOs, consideration was given in the vein that
they may be advanced craft from another country, (with the
Soviets on the top of the list), or even possibly a secret craft
of our own built by another faction of the military.

In the same paragraph you wrote," With increasing public
interest, sightings increased until 1952 when the Pentagon was
so swamped with UFO reports that military communications were
disrupted." Here you make this seem like "public interest"
induced UFO sightings=97quite the opposite=97unlike today "Flying
Disk, Flying Saucer, and UFOs" were headline news, and in =9247
and later in =9252 were a national phenomenon; in fact "the
largest press conference" held post WWII was provoked because of
UFOs in 1952. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge,
"military communications were never disrupted" by UFO reports.
Please cite references.

You further stated in the same paragraph, "After the 1952 wave,
the Air Force realized how dangerous UFOs were. Although they
had no proof that they were Soviet superweapons, just the
existence of the UFO problem could be used as a great propaganda
tool by the Russians. Because of this, the Air Force classified
all of their UFO investigations, set about trying to discredit
the witness to such events, and explain away as much as they
could. Their hopes were that interest in UFOs would die down and
not give the Soviets any leverage over the imaginations of the
American people."  According to "declassified records" the
military, i.e., the Air Force, didn=92t know "what the UFOs were,
or their origin," and aside from entering very sensitive areas,
the flight characteristics of these objects were astounding even
by today=92s standards=97so the seriousness, or "danger" as you put
it, was recognized long before 1952. All military reports, etc.,
are "classified" at some level. Project Sign was classified at
"Secret" or above in 1948.

It is certainly true that the "powers-that-be" did discredit UFO
witnesses, and took great effort to "debunk" UFO sightings as a
whole, however; "Russian propaganda" was the least of their
worries.

In your 7th paragraph you wrote, "Donald Keyhoe founded the
National Investigation Committee on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP.)"
Donald Keyhoe was not the founder of NICAP, he became the
"Director" in 1957. Although his tenure was short-lived,
"Townsend Brown" was the original founder of NICAP. You further
wrote, "The Air Force was afraid that hearings would make it
look incompetent or stir up public interest and create another
"wave" of sightings, and worked feverishly against them." Your
imagination seems to be running away with you Mr.
Sakulich=97please cite some references.

In your eighth paragraph, you wrote, "In the mid-fifties,
"contactees" who claimed to have been contacted by the crews of
alien spaceships began to appear. It is these people who turned
investigations of UFOs into a circus of insanity, and I think it
fairly obvious that each and every one of these people is
suffering from a mental disorder of one sort or another. "
Certainly the contactees were a colorful group, but to "label
them =91all=92 insane" is superfluous, to put it mildly, and a grand
generalization to be more accurate.

In your ninth paragraph, you wrote, "It was during this period
in the late 1950s and early 1960s that science turned against
itself. Previous to the cults that popped up around the
contactees, the prevailing theory in the scientific community
was that UFOs were some sort of as of yet undocumented natural
phenomena: strange and rare weather patterns, exotic optical
tricks being played on the eyes of the unsuspecting, and so
forth. Pretty much everyone agreed that the UFOs-as-alien-
spaceships idea was hogwash." Please cite references.

In your tenth paragraph you wrote, "Ridicule against anyone even
suspected of being interested in UFOs was just as destructive to
life and reputation as being accused of being a communist by
Senator McCarthy. When Dr. James McDonald testified to congress
that use of the Supersonic transport (SST) would decrease the
ozone layer and cause 10,000 new cases of skin cancer in the US
each year, Senator Ted Kennedy attacked him for having shown an
interest in UFOs. He was laughed out of Congress, despite the
fact that his claims about the SST had scientific background,
and a short time later, his career in shambles, he took his
life." Here you=92ve gone from comical to ridiculous; although
it=92s true that "mainstream science has had a propensity for
avoiding the UFO phenomena, comparing the repercussions of those
who have crossed the conventional line to that of the receiving
end of McCarthyism is ludicrous! Furthermore, Ted Kennedy did
not attack Dr. McDonald, and although the proponents for a U.S.
SST program may have made snide comments about his work in
regards to Ufology, he was hardly "laughed out of Congress!"  I
might add that with the efforts of Dr. McDonald, Congress voted
down the funding for the SST program, and essentially ended any
hopes for the establishment of any such venture. As to Dr.
McDonald=92s career, he was senior physicist, Institute of
Atmospheric Physics, and professor, Department of Atmospheric
Sciences, University of Arizona. He also was a member of the
following organizations:

American Meteorological Society.

American Geophysical Union.

Royal Meteorological Society.

American Association for the Advancement of Science.

Committee for Environmental Information.

Society for Social Responsibility in Science.

American Association of University Professors.

Sigma Xi.

National Academy of Sciences=92 Panel on Weather and Climate
Modification.

Advisory Panel for U.S. Navy-ESSA Project STORMFURY.

Member, Evaluation and Goals Committee, University Committee on
Atmospheric Research.

Let=92s not forget his contributions to Ufology! This was not a
man whose career was in shambles, which of course negates your
ideology of motivation for suicide.

In your 11th paragraph you wrote, "The only person to come
through this unscathed was J. Allen Hynek. A well-regarded
astrophysicist, he had begun in 1947 to help the Air Force
investigate UFO claims. He was such a cautious, methodical man
that it took him 20 years to change opinions and declare that
the Air Force really wasn't investigating things properly, and
that room for serious scientific study existed." First, Hynek
was an astronomer, not an astrophysicist. He did not become a
consultant to the Air Force in 1947. Moreover, it was "his
opinion" that changed in regards to UFOs, to say he "came
through it unscathed" simply isn=92t accurate! Hynek by his own
admission was part of the debunking process early on, and said,
"I was quite negative in most of my evaluations. I stretched far
to give something a natural explanation, sometimes when it may
not have really had it." Cautious and methodical doesn=92t
describe Hynek in the early years of UFO investigation.

In your last paragraph, you wrote, "No one is better suited to
investigating UFOs than scientists, and, as a whole, no group
has ever neglected the duty of their chosen livelihoods more
than scientists have in refusing to treat such matters with an
impartial investigation." Aside from the myriad of informational
mistakes, and your stance on Ufology, much like that of a
politician, (unclear, and or ever-changing) here is where you
are finally starting to make sense. Perhaps in the future you
will apply some scientific methodology of your own when writing
about a subject your not familiar with.


Respectfully,

Frank Warren







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   Sep > Sep 30

                Re: Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 00:22:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 06:32:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest


>From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:56:05 -0700
>Subject: Re: Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest Argentina

>>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:27:31 -0400
>>Subject: Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest Argentina

>>INEXPLICATA
>>The Journal of Hispanic Ufology
>>September 27, 2004

>>Source: Las Ultimas Noticias (LUN)

>>Talk of tornadoes, fallen satellites and saucer crashes
>>Mysterious Treefalls in Patagonian Forest

-snip-

>I'm interested in any further details on this Argentina case
>when they are available, in particular any aerial / ground
>.photos and studies regarding the snapped and "exploded" trunks
>(the ones that "appear to have been blown away from within by a
>stick of dynamite"). The description as provided reminds me, at
>least superficially, of the "blown nodes" (expulsion cavities)
>found in the nodes of some crop formations, including those
>large ones in the recent formation again in Matsqui, BC this
>summer, similar to last year's, in 7' - 10' tall cattle corn
>(per my other recent updates; scan images are on the CCCRN web
>site in the 2003 / 2004 report archives).
<

When trees are struck by lightning they can explode from the
pressure of steam. Where does the steam come from? Well, the
tree (if healthy) is full of water and the electric current
(thousands of amperes at high voltage) heats the water in
milliseconds and turns it to high pressure steam. The immense
sudden internal pressure can break the tree trunk.

Now, I'm not saying that that lightning struck the trees, but I
am suggesting that perhaps some "phenomenon" cause huge electric
currents in the trees and these currents caused the tree to
"explode" or break in the weakest area of each tree.

And, incidently, this might have something to do with crop
circle bending, also. People (e.g. "Lefty" ) have suggested
microwave heating at the base of a stalk that softens the stalk
and may cause expulsion cavities by heating the fluid inside a
stalk. I'm pointing out that even a unidirectional flow of
electricity could cause the same expulsion effect. tree trunk








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                       Re: Hopkins' Technique - Chace

From: David Chace <davidwchace.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 01:05:16 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 06:33:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique - Chace


>From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:42:45 +0100
>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Technique

>Hopkins shows Ryan a series of pictures - Dick and others
>were quite right, there was only one alien image amongst
>them. Ryan identifies Santa Claus, Batman, and a policeman
>before he gets to the Alien image. When he sees it, he appears
>not to recognize it at all and looks at Hopkins as if for a cue.

>Hopkins asks "Ever seen anything like that before?" and
>Ryan shakes his head indicating that he has not.

Dick Hall or Greg Sandow probably know more about this test than
I, but from my understanding Hopkins has the child tell a story
about each of the images (or at least a few of them) and tries
not to lead the child into thinking the Gray Alien image is any
more significant than any of the others. I think what Hopkins is
trying to determine is if the child has any special recognition
of, or associations with, or emotional reaction to the Alien
image that could suggest either conscious or subconscious
memories of a UFO abduction experience involving such beings.
The child�s stories about the other images provide a baseline
for comparison.

Critics of UFO abduction research can find fault with just about
any test that an investigator like Hopkins can come up with,
particularly if it involves research into the possible abduction
experiences of children, and regardless of the investigator's
efforts to be objective. Those critics are right, to a degree.
It is impossible to design a perfect test or experiment of this
sort, and there are always human factors to be considered when
it comes to how such tests are actually conducted.

Some of those critics want to improve the quality of UFO
abduction research, and minimize the risks of creating false
memories and so forth. Perhaps some of these people might be
able to come up with better tests or even become personally
involved in actually investigating cases and interviewing
possible abductees. Other critics have no real intention of
improving UFO abduction research, and simply want to shut down
the whole enterprise entirely. If they should ever succeed,
thousands of people around the world will be left to cope with
their unexplained experiences, and humanity will have lost an
important opportunity to advance its knowledge. I think Joe is
of the former category. Some of the members of CSICOP apparently
are of the latter.

David W. Chace










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                         Take-Me-To-Your-Leader Lit

From: Terry Groff <terry.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 04:08:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 06:42:05 -0400
Subject: Take-Me-To-Your-Leader Lit


Source: The Philadelphia Inquirer

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/9784911.htm?1c

09-29-04

Take-me-to-your-leader lit

By Jeff Gammage

Inquirer Staff Writer

A germ is a seed, a bud, an egg, the spark of a new idea that
can lead to invention or truth.

A germ is a pathogen, a parasite, a virus, a microscopic
destroyer of life and health.

In 12 Monkeys, a germ is the villain, killing billions of
people. In The War of the Worlds, a germ is the hero, slaying
the Martian invaders.

A germ can change the way you feel. And look. And react.

It can even change the way you think.

----

Let's get this out of the way:

Jennifer Bates has never been abducted by a UFO.

She's never been swept into the sky on a beam of white light,
been stretched out on an examining table and probed with cold
metal instruments.

But she knows people who have. Or at least, who believe they
have.

And she's had her own weird experiences, one in particular.
About 10 years ago she had a vision: She would open a bookstore,
called Germ, and in it she would sell only books that she would
want to read.

Now that vision has come true.

What that means for you, the book-buying public, is that if
you're looking for a New York Times best-seller or the latest
Oprah pick, stay out of her store.

Bates' new and used books all fit under the umbrella of what
might be called Apocalypse Culture: UFOs, Bigfoot, Kennedy
assassination, ghosts, time travel, conspiracy, ESP, the
unexplained, unknown and just plain peculiar.

At Germ, located in the city's Fishtown neighborhood, the
shelves bear no listings for Romance, Mystery, Sports or
Parenting. Instead it's Mind Control, Secret History,
Drugsploitation, Nature Gone Bad, War and Why We Need It, and
Our Mysterious Brain.

It's not that Bates believes in all this stuff, or even most of
it. But, she says, there are events that can't be explained.
Like the Rendlesham Forest incident in England, where U.S. Air
Force officers went into the woods thinking a plane had crashed,
only to come upon a strange, glowing craft.

"There is compelling evidence," Bates says. She adds with a
smile: "There always is."

In a case like that, she says, it could be an alien spaceship.
Or it could be a secret government aircraft, out for a spin.
Close encounter or German engineering? It's hard to know.

Either way, she's fascinated by the psychology of the fringe
sciences, by the meanings people assign to experiences and the
connections they make between them. So while Germ is a place to
find vintage Flying Saucer magazines, she also wants it to be a
place where people can talk and question without fear of
ridicule.

"This is a bookstore," she says. "But it's really more of an
information ministry."

----

Black hair. Black pants. Black boots. Black shirt. Black
wristwatch.

That's Bates. Her green-brown eyes are piercing, her personality
the same.

She paints beautiful, disquieting artworks that combine elements
of Judaism, American industry and atomic energy. Several hang in
the gallery section of Germ. She's fascinated by the Rosenberg
executions, physics, higher math, and the occultist practices of
the Nazis. She loves The Day the Earth Stood Still. And Charlton
Heston, for his performance in Planet of the Apes and his work
leading the National Rifle Association. She owns several guns.

She gives herself one day a week off, on Thursdays. Three days
she works for a local nonprofit, and Friday through Sunday she
runs Germ. Bates guards the store entrance with a black-clad
mannequin named Gunther, whom she describes as a Soldier From
the Future but who bears an unsettling resemblance to a German
storm trooper.

Bates, who gives her age as "between 30 and death," was born in
California, her adolescence spent in the punk-rock culture of
Miami. Her mother was an English teacher, very artistic, her
father a Marine Corps intelligence officer who was always
reading about UFOs. That's what got her interested.

Not that her path from there to here was direct.

She ran off to New York before high school graduation. Got
dragged back to Miami. Went to the Rhode Island School of
Design. Quit. Listened to the Velvet Underground. Ran out of
albums. Went to art school.

In the 1980s she moved to New York, to become a speed freak. She
failed. Managed several movie theaters. Decided to move to
Hollywood to die. She lived. Moved back to Miami, got a job at a
planetarium. Left for New York. Hated New York. Returned to
Miami.

In the 1990s she followed a friend to Philadelphia. She stayed.

Bates knows that these days, a successful independent bookstore
can seem as rare as, well, a Yeti sighting. Independents died by
the score during the 1990s, devoured by big chains and Internet
sales, and as a group they struggle now, their 16 percent market
share half the onetime peak.

Why do some survive while others fail? The answer is as
mysterious as a crop circle. Some have fanatically loyal
customers. Others just happen to be located in areas that don't
interest the chains. Many reinvented themselves as niche stores,
specializing in single subjects. Like Germ.

----

When Bates was 9, she saw a string of lights in the sky that
could have been a UFO. It also could have been a fuel discharge
from an aircraft.

She's never had a supernatural encounter. She has experienced
several strange "timing incidents," those fluky 10-seconds-
later-and-life-would-be-different coincidences. When she was
living in Hollywood, she decided to give away everything she
owned - clothes, furniture, paintings, books. Everything. She
walked out of her apartment, newly broke and homeless, strode
down Sunset Boulevard - and smack into an old friend from Miami.
He told her that, one, she was crazy, and two, she could stay at
his place for a while.

That's sort of how it goes for her, oddity followed by
aberration - so far, all on this planet.

"I wish I could say I was picked up by a UFO," Bates says. "A
lot of people say I was dropped by one."






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                      PBS Poll: Do Aliens Really Exist?

From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:50:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 06:48:07 -0400
Subject: PBS Poll: Do Aliens Really Exist?


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/origins/aliens.html (click on Launch)

All of NOVAs 'instruction' against the affirmative regarding the
question are unbalanced rebuttal arguments requiring homocentric
assumptions they have to leap to make - and apparently hope you
might make the leap, too.

Still 80% of the over 3000 respondents don't buy into the
slick mental programming and vote in the affirmative,
regardless... wow!

That's got to have some statistical significance. The NOVA site
is philosophically hostile to the proponent community. It must
really chafe NOVAs collective butt that people still vote the
other way even when we've been 'told' otherwise. Indeed, that
whole 'poll' was an obtuse _dodge_ to talk you out of the
potentiality for intelligent alien life, and not to find out
what a real 'breakdown' was. Their 'poll' tried to skew
_itself_, before results could be tabulated. That doesn't
appear to be very rational or at least negatively so. <g>

PBS, be ashamed.


alienview.nul
  www.AlienView.net











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                           A Wake Up Call Perhaps?

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:47:40 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 06:50:03 -0400
Subject: A Wake Up Call Perhaps?


Dr. Maccabee said alot in his post about the passing of both
Dr. Mack and Dr. Mallove.

To me both men's passing has been a wake up call to me.

In the past few years I've lost several folks who were role
models and mentors. It started with the 911 attacks where I lost
some and then each year since it's been piling up.

These people we cherish and look up to deserve the legacy of we
who are still here to step up to the plate and do our best to
make them proud. In the past few years I've been exhaulted now
to surrogate father, uncle, tutor, mentor etc.

Dr. Mack's passing made me think again about who'll pick up the
slack? Some of our esteemed senior UFOlogists and with due
respect sceptics also are in their golden years. What new crop
of researchers and scientists and courageous ones are we
grooming?

When I was in my teens I spent my time keeping an eye on the
seniors in my neighborhood. That's a practice I continue to this
day. Especially veterans. I feel it's my obligation to give back
to them for what they've done for us. Plain and simple. One
rewarding thing is that each student I've personally trained has
gone on to become wealthy. I didn't realize it but it's a good
feeling. No they don't always return the favor but that's okay.

Yet now let me look at Ufology and what has been covered all
these years. Primarily the abduction research. If what Dr.
Jacobs, Budd Hopkins and Dr. Mack say are true, God help us all.
That would make Dr. Mack's passing a tragedy of immeasurable
magnitude. We've lost one of our 'Jedi Knights' and it's up to
us to continue our training.

More now than ever we must look at the dangers past and present
and knock off the bickering and get down to brass tacks. We've
still got people being threatened for what they've experienced
or researched or witnessed.

There's like a new 'Glass Ceiling' for new discoveries and
applications. The young folk see constantly assassinations and
greed of global proportions daily. How's a good guy supposed to
win?

I grew up around scientists and educators of the highest regard.
In those days of the Space Race we all prayed that just one of
those scientists or astronauts would come up with another
miracle device or cure. We protected them. Yes, there were
scientists who would get personal escorts just to the pizza
store!

Nowadays they only get kudos if they get wrapped up with some
floozy and it's blasted on the tabloids.

Education and literacy in the USA is abominable. Thank the lure
of drug money for that. Legal and illegal drugs.

Ufology is highly popular with the people of this world but it's
not popular with the governments and services that are supposed
to accomodate the people. What's wrong with this picture?

That's the clue to the Ufology problem.

Me, I'm going back to finish my law degree.

Education is the key. Show the kids that they can make a
difference and that they should team up and protect themselves
cause they can't always depend on those sworn into office to do
so.


Best,

Greg








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                         Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956

From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:48:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 06:58:31 -0400
Subject: Lakenheath-Bentwaters 1956


Hi all,

The "Lakenheath Collaboration" website was launched quite a while
ago now at:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/Lakenheath.htm

I've wondered if its association with the dread names of Clarke
and Roberts is the cause of some reflex aversion on the part of
listerions? But no, there has been - so far as I am aware -
absolutely zero response from any of the so-called
skeptibunkers, as well as the so-called ETH believers. People
must be keeping their opinions to themselves for subtler
reasons.

The apparent absence of interest in this project isn't entirely
surprising in view of the fact that it doesn't espouse any
clear-cut theory about what happened, and the complicated many-
layered structure means that it isn't necessarily easy for
others to enlist the facts it contains in support of one. But
I'd like to know what people feel is the status of this case
today. I've posted this rather long discussion both to inform
the list as to some history behind the Lakenheath website
project and to encourage a little debate about some of the
outstanding issues.

The background to my involvement begins with personal research
in 1986-7 during which I had extensive correspondence and
interviews with the surviving principals and others such as G.
D. Thayer of the Condon Report. Some years later I had long
since put the case aside when Dave Clarke first contacted me in
April 2001 proposing exchange of research materials and
collaboration in a non-profit report with his UFOIN team
consisting of himself, Andy Roberts, Jenny Randles and Paul
Fuller. Without going into individual attitudes and nuances
here, it was immediately clear that there was a general
presumption on the part of this team that the case was basically
"solved" in these senses:

- That "the" Venom aircrews had been heard from and had told an
unexciting story with no tail-chase etc.

- That the canonical scenario of Perkins & BOI-485 was a product
of overexcitable American imaginations.

- That there was evidence of temperature inversions that could
explain the ground radar reports.

- That the AI radar targets had probably been caused by a
balloon.

I was unconvinced by several arguments adduced in support, and
this resulted in some lively and occasionally fractious debate
over the ensuing months. I thought it might be interesting for
listers to see what the state of play was at the start and to
compare the simple clarity of what might-have-been with the
difficult, ramified and confusing (but, I believe, FAIR) farrago
of information and deduction that is the Lakenheath
Collaboration website today.

Below for your possible edification is an excerpt of the first
substantive letter received from Dave Clarke, 23 April 2001,
annotated today - {in these curly brackets}:

DC: ". . . Only two weeks ago, I returned from Guildford having
spent an afternoon with Freddie Wimbledon (now 90 years old!),
having obtained an extremely detailed account of the events of
that night in 1956 on audio tape (in excess of 2 hours).This
followed lengthy correspondence with Freddie; as you will see
below, in the light of the new evidence he has had to radically
alter his standpoint on the sequence of events, and the role he
played."

---{ This interview

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/FW-interview.htm

and other correspondence shows that Flt. Lt. Wimbledon (Chief
Controller at the RAF Neatishead GCI radar site in August 1956)
was indeed persuaded to adapt his initial 1978 story when
presented in 2001 with the log books of the two 23 Squadron
aircrews. But he did so only because he seemed to have no
choice, faced with what he was assured by Dave Clarke and Andy
Roberts was documentary evidence relating to the event he had
described in 1978.

I knew from my own experience that Freddie Wimbledon needed
little encouragement to indulge a tendency to Anglo-centric
condescension when it came to those gullible Americans. This
reflex seems to be quite common in ex-RAF types of a certain
age, and to be able to fall in with a thesis which "proved" what
he'd always known - that the USAF at Lakenheath were bumbling
amateurs - was not uncongenial to him, and I believe it
sweetened the pill of having to concede errors in his own story.

I now know that since the discovery of the aircrews by Jenny in
1996 others had suggested that these were the "wrong" crews, but
I wasn't very familiar with this new twist in the case at the
time in 2001. Nevertheless I thought straight away that the case
Dave was presenting as proof that they must be the right
aircrews was flawed. After a great deal of difficult and
sometimes acerbic argument based on textual analysis, GCI
practice etc., during the course of 2001 I was able to get
agreement from Dave Clarke (though conspicuously not from Andy,
in whom I could detect no motivation to reflect further on a
now-fixed opinion) that this case was after all *not* proven.

I offered evidence, based largely on Dave's own very
well-conducted and conscientiously documented interviews, that in
fact the 23 Squadron aircrews had not been controlled by
Neatishead GCI at all but were in contact exclusively with
Lakenheath. My interpretation was eventually admitted as
plausible by Dave and Jenny, but the conclusion was still not
accepted by the group. Finally, to his credit, Dave Clarke agreed
that we would put a carefully prepared non-leading question to
nav/rad John Brady to check this. Brady confirmed my inference.
See:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/23-Sq-NO-GCI.htm }---

DC: "The most significant revision is the time he [Wimbledon]
ordered the scramble, and the fact that the order was given
jointly with the Sector Controller based at Horsham St Faith. It
was the Sector who were the "missing link" so to speak, in that
they appear to have acted as go-between in the R/T contacts
between the Venom crews and USAF Lakenheath."

---{Wimbledon's initial 1978 testimony was that "his"
interception occured about 30-45 minutes after the start of his
shift at 2300 on August 13. Twenty three years later, when
confronted with the 23 Squadron log book times of 0200-0300 on
August 14, he was persuaded to retreat from this, and he now
began to improvise the "memory" that his shift had begun at
0030, apparently to explain how the interception could have
happened at 2 in the morning. But he nevertheless remained
puzzled.

And not just about the time. For example, he never understood
how "his" aircrews could maintain that they were exclusively in
radio contact with the Americans at Lakenheath; he never
understood why *both* the 23 Squadron crews claimed identical
extended attempts to intercept a target when only *one* of the
planes under his control had done so; and he never understood
why the 23 Squadron crews had not been interviewed (beyond
routine squadron debriefing) when a senior Fighter Command
officer had told him at the time that he was on his way to
Waterbeach to do just that.

The reason for his puzzlement, obviously, is that the Wimbledon
event was a different event involving different aircraft, and
there is no reason to prefer the grudgingly-evolved 23-year old
version of his testimony over his original 1978 statements.}---

DC: "Since Jenny's initial contact in 1996 I independently
traced all four members of the crews of the two Venoms directly
involved (all of whom have been interviewed extensively on audio
tape), plus established the minor role of a *third* Venom which
was apparently scrambled but returned to base duty not carried
out."

---{This discovery of a third Venom scramble by Dave Clarke was
an excellent piece of work. He traced and interviewed the
navigator/radar operator at length. According to the navigator's
log book this third Venom was scrambled earlier on the evening
of the 13th, long before the events at 0200-0300 on the 14th.
Nevertheless the Squadron Diary located by Dave and Andy
contains the note that this Venom was scrambled after what was
said - by the compiler at least - to be the same UFO target.

The first lesson I sought to draw from this was that planes
other than the now-canonical "two Venoms" clearly not only could
have been, but were, in the air earlier that night, despite the
protestations of both Wimbledon and the 23 Squadron crews that
only two planes could possibly have taken off. Evidently, as was
revealed in time, each of them knew about a *different pair* of
planes, and the events of that night were more complicated than
was evident from any individual's point of view. Actually it
turned out that this discovery prefigured the later discovery of
a fourth and even a fifth Venom, again involving radar "UFOs" on
the evening of Aug 13! }---

DC: "Here is where we have to turn earlier versions of the
events upon their proverbial heads, because several errors of
fact and interpretation sprang out at me when I read your
summary; this is to be expected if you were basing your
knowledge of what the Venom crews said upon the extremely
truncated TV interviews of 1996: 1) Firstly, the Venom crews *do
not* assert they had no contact with the Neatishead GCI, rather
the opposite!"

---{ Actually it turned out that they did assert precisely what
I had said they asserted, based on close study of Jenny Randles'
original transcripts, Clarke's and Roberts' new interviews, and
simple logic. This was finally confirmed directly by John Brady:
Neither of these aircrews was even briefly in contact with
Flt.Lt. Wimbledon at Neatishead during their interceptions. This
fact, drawn from all available contextual evidence and direct
witness assertion, is decisively underscored by the realisation
that a target stationary at as little as maybe three thousand
feet over the Lakenheath airfield as described would probably
have been below the radar horizon of Neatishead 40 miles away.}-
--

 DC: "The scenario was that they were scrambled by Wimbledon (as
Chief Controller) after he was alerted to the radar contact by
USAF at Lakenheath. He tracked the target then gave the order to
scramble."

---{ Inasmuch as Wimbledon was demonstrably not involved in this
0200 incident at all it is incorrect that he was "alerted to the
radar contact by USAF at Lakenheath".}---

DC: "The actual scramble order was transmitted by the Sector
Controller at Horsham [St Faith], who instructed the crews to
contact Lakenheath once airborne."

---{This appears to be correct in the case of the 0200-0300 23
Squadron scrambles.}---

DC: "When the target was within AI range the crews switched from
Lakenheath back to Neatishead while interception was attempted."

---{This is confused because of the conflation of the distinct
Wimbledon and 23 Squadron testimonies. No such switching
occurred in the case of the latter incident, in which *only*
Lakenheath radar controllers were involved. In the Wimbledon
incident this switching may well have occurred.

Since 1978 it was uncritically assumed for years (including by
me) that the Wimbledon incident must have been the same incident
recalled independently by T/Sgt. Perkins in a letter to the
Condon Committee in 1968. In fact this was not convincingly
demonstrated, in my opinion, until Dave Clarke found collateral
documentary and witness evidence tending to constrain the
possible date. See:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/missing-intercept.htm

We still have no direct testimony from aircrews in this case, of
course, but there is also circumstantial evidence (for instance,
the time frame, and the active involvement of only *one*
aircraft) so the probability that they are the same incident
must now be considered high.

Perkins' account does contain internal evidence that the aircrew
concerned had radar information from elsewhere than Lakenheath
ATC - for example, essential height-finder information and the
pilot's confirmation to Lakenheath that the target had moved
behind them - consistent with GCI assistance (as I had
speculated in detail in 1987), and it was supported in this and
in almost every other respect by the then-"secret" USAF telex
BOI-485 from Lakenheath.}---

DC: "The information concerning the stationary target has been
confirmed by all the crews, and is also accepted by Wimbledon,
viz that the aircraft undershot the target, rather than there
being a manoeuvre on the part of the 'UFO.'"

---{Again it is true that more than 2 decades after his original
statement Wimbledon allowed his story to bend with the wind
because of what he was told about the 23 Squadron log books. In
1986 he had described the motion of the target to me as
comparable to a jet fighter but 30-40 years in advance of the
time, looping behind the fighter and following it for several
minutes. In the March 2001 interview he de-emphasised the
dynamics a little, allowing that the loop manoeuvre must have
been an illusion because the 23 Squadron aircrews now said that
*their* target was stationary whilst they overshot its position.

This illustrates how even the most careful and best intentioned
interviewer can unwittingly lead a witness. The result was a
tendency to devalue the witness's earliest and least-tutored
evidence in favour of selectively extracted fragments from these
improvisations offered 23 years later. Selective, because the
investigators here (with Randles demurring) were strongly
inclined towards the idea that the target could have been a
balloon, based largely on the 23 Squadron nav/rads' half-hearted
suggestion to this effect and a failure at this time to
appreciate that two separate incidents were being conflated.

Hence Dave Clarke's remark that Wimbledon had accepted that the
UFO did not manoeuvre. Well, he did give in with regard to the
apparent loop, but not with regard to other parts of the
incident. The fact is that even in 2001, despite the 23 Squadron
stories, Wimbledon remained adamant that he did not believe the
object he tracked could have been a balloon because of the
rapidity of what appeared to be its controlled manoeuvres. In a
letter of April 2001 he reaffirms: "There was so much happening
unbeknown to other participants or onlookers. I still cannot
accept the balloon idea because of what I had earlier followed
on my radar. There was something capable of very high speeds,
ability to stop suddenly and move off suddenly. . . . Then too,
when it decided to go it went up rapidly to the North East and
just disappeared beyond the range of our radar."

Wimbledon's account was, and remains, inconsistent with a target
that remained stubbornly in one spot low over the airfield for a
couple of hours, which as already mentioned would probably have
been below his radar horizon anyway, explaining why Neatishead
was never involved in the first place.}---

DC: "2) With regards to the aircraft and AI radar specifications
- here is another error because the aircraft *were not* from 253
Squadron (the Waterbeach standing squadron), but from 23
Squadron based at Coltishall. The Battle Flight rotated so that
different squadrons passed through Waterbeach taking turns on
quick readiness duty; during the period in August relevant to
this case, Venom NF-3s from Coltishall were the QRA (quick
readiness) night squadron scrambled by Wimbledon."

---{The identification of 23 Squadron as the Waterbeach QRA
squadron at the time was very important (I previously believed
that we were talking NF2a Venoms of 253 Squadron), although it
is not necessarily true to say that QRA aircraft were "scrambled
by Wimbledon" because: (A) we have not located the aircrew(s)
concerned in that incident and we don't know for certain where
they came from; (B) there is no good evidence that Wimbledon
"scrambled" the plane that came under his control at all (it was
actually not Wimbledon's place to directly scramble aircraft
anyway; this would be done by Sector Control making a decision
incorporating information and requests from Neatishead into the
whole tactical radar picture); and (C) there is now first-hand
documentary evidence that at least one plane involved in a pre-
midnight attempted interception was a Venom en route through the
area which was opportunistically diverted to its target and
therefore was not "scrambled" by anybody.}---

DC: "The Airborne Radar in use was AI Mk 21 American
Westinghouse kit - this version did not have a 'lock on'
facility, as one of the navigators put it 'it was all done
manually moving the scanner by means of a tiny joystick.'
 Therefore the phrase 'Roger, I've got my guns locked on him'
appears to be a little fantastic, to say the least!"

---{Indeed the Mk21 did not have what would be called a "track
and lock on", i.e. an automatic target-following facility. The
unmodified Westinghouse APS-57 did, but in RAF use this was
disconnected. However Dave was not correct to say that it had no
'lock on' facility, because in the Venom NF3 installation the
radar ranging output was fed to an electric gyro gunsight and in
operation the gunsight was designed to "lock on" to this radar
output automatically when the range fell below 800 yds. Note
that neither Perkins nor BOI-485 at any time refers to a "track
and lock on", only to "guns locked on", or just a "lock on".
This phrase appears in the 1954 Air Publication describing the
Mk21 radar gunsight installation, and note that in fact Perkins
specifically annotated the diagram on his original 1968 letter
with the phrase "radar *gunsight* lock on". See
http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/lock-on.htm }---

DC: "We have also established the claim of a 'visual' sighting
by the pilot of the first Venom was in error - all the crews
maintain nothing was seen. This is supported by the Squadron
diary,"

---{This is incorrect. It was established that the 23 Squadron
crews in the 0200-0300 events did not see anything, but the
error is the assumption that these crews were those involved in
the event(s) described by Perkins, BOI-485 and Wimbledon.}---

DC: "and a 1957 DDI Tech memo that refers to the case."

---{This very interesting memo refers to *a* case, which may or
may not have been one of the two-or-more events that seem to
have occurred on Aug 13-14 1956.}---

DC: "Note though that in contradiction to both Perkins and
Wimbledon's versions, the crew of the 2nd Venom (scrambled 0240
hours GMT) report a similar tracking of a radar target, and a
number of attempted interceptions."

---{ Indeed so, not to mention also the contemporary
intelligence report BOI-485 which is identical to Perkins'
description. As mentioned, this point was a puzzle to Wimbledon.
Dave Clarke's initial conclusion here was that Perkins and
Wimbledon (and by extension BOI-485) must somehow have been
badly mistaken. With hindsight we can see that the correct
conclusion should have been that this very strong structural
difference between the stories was early evidence that they were
not descriptions of the same event.}---

DC: "The story concerning the engine failure and return to base
appears to refer to the *third* aircraft, mentioned earlier."

---{This is possible, although the timing is difficult to
reconcile.}---

DC: "3) With regards to the timing of the intercept, yes this
has certainly caused some confusion. However, we have
established beyond any reasonable doubt that the 1st Venom (ie
the aircraft that attempted the first interception) *was*
scrambled at 0200 GMT. This we know from the evidence of the
aircrew, and from the Squadron records themselves. The aircraft
logbook clearly reads 'Scramble - USAF'."

---{What was established was that *a* Venom was scrambled at
0200 at the behest of the USAF, and another at 0240 . . . }---

DC: "There is no possibility that another aircraft could have
been scrambled from the Battle Flight without the crew (or most
certainly Wimbledon) being aware of this. 23 Squadron were the
QRA squadron, and the crews had been sitting on the runway since
darkness on the 13th waiting for orders!"

---{ . . . and in fact it turns out that one earlier Venom was
scrambled after a radar UFO at 1830 GMT on the evening of Aug 13,
and another at 2120. And it is by no means certain that the
pair(s) of planes described by Perkins/BOI-485/Wimbledon can only
have been scrambled from the duty airfield. This was a point of
view I argued strongly, against resistance, and I predicted that
evidence of a "missing interception" might still be found. See:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/missing-intercept.htm

Dave Clarke's wholly commendable response was to redouble his
indefatigable research, and as we now know he found that a
*fifth* RAF plane was indeed vectored to a radar UFO near
Lakenheath at some unknown time that night - the Venom being
flown en route from RAF Coltishall by none other than the 23
Squadron Commanding Officer, later to become the incumbent of
the MoD's Whitehall "UFO desk"!

(Note that although BOI-485 states that the intercepting jet was
"believed to be a Venom" - a phrase which doesn't encourage
confidence that the source of information here is definitive -
 and says that it was from RAF Waterbeach, this does not
necessarily mean that it had come *directly* from Waterbeach
because the questionnaire asks for the aircraft's "home station"
for obvious reasons, not its immediate point of origin.
Waterbeach was the duty QRA airfield and, temporarily, 23
Squadron's home station.)}---

DC: "Therefore it seems that BOI-485 was correct after all - it
was not a clerical error, and as you will know the Blue Book
records place the scramble between 0010 and 0330 hrs GMT on the
14th. This is not inconsistent with what the crew logbooks tell
us ..."

---{This remains true - it isn't inconsistent. But because so
much else *is* factually and circumstantially inconsistent it
remains a reasonable hypothesis that the time given in BOI-485
as relating to the Perkins event is a clerical error, possibly
because of a confusion between source documents relating to the
two distinct events at Lakenheath - one pre-midnight as
described by Perkins, BOI-485 and Wimbledon, involving GCI radar
at Neatishead and high-level coordination; and another later in
the night, a secondary affair sponsored directly by concerned
USAF radar operators at Lakenheath (as reported by 23 Squadron
sources), and not involving GCI radar. See

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/PerkFW-interceptscenario.htm

}---

DC: "and is accepted by Freddie Wimbledon. He notes that he came
on duty around 0030 hrs GMT."

---{As mentioned it was accepted by Wimbledon without any
enthusiasm and involved his having to creatively edit his
memory, changing a shift time from 2300 to 0030 GMT in the
process. With hindsight there was no need for him to have felt
this pressure to alter his story.}---

DC: "He was briefed by the Controller he was relieving (nothing
untoward reported), and then at some point received calls from
first Bentwaters and secondly Lakenheath regarding an unknown
target buzzing their airfield. He then set out to track this
target himself, discussed the situation with Sector, set up the
Interception procedure and ordered the scramble. All this would
have had to have taken place between 0030 and 0200. To place the
action *before* midnight is inconsistent with the
contemporaneous evidence now available and is clearly in error."

---{It is still possible that this is right, that the time given
in BOI-485 correctly applies to the action described therein and
confirmed independently by Perkins. It is possible that Perkins
was wrong about the midnight shift making relief in the middle
of the action. It is possible that Wimbledon mistakenly aligned
his memory with the account current in 1978 (his first full
account in June that year containing the shift time 2300 was
written after having been shown McDonald's 1969 AAAS
presentation published in 1972). But I doubt it. And even in
this case, it remains unarguable that the series of two-aircraft
23 Squadron interceptions 0200-0300 unsupported by GCI radar
*were not the same event* as a *one*-aircraft interception which
*was* controlled by GCI radar. So we would have two different
events in a similar time frame, instead of two different events
in very different time frames.

Since the 23 Squadron Diary and the aircrews refer only to
contact with Lakenheath GCA radar, whereas Perkins was Supervisor
of the physically and organisationally distinct RATCC radar, it
is always arguable - however unlikely - that the two sets of
events were so focussed on different facilities with their
different chains of reporting that confusion ensued between two
reports that were ineptly coordinated with one another, leading
to a wrong time being entered in BOI-485. See:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/BOI-PerkinsTiming.htm }---

DC: "4)  Just to give a brief summary of the material we have
collected. We have evidence from the Meteorological Office
archive at Bracknell demonstrating that a major high altitude
temperature inversion was present over the North Sea at 0200 hrs
on the 14th, this having developed during the course of the
previous day."

---{ Paul Fuller kindly supplied me with complete copies of the
Met Office charts and Hemsby radiosonde readings. I reduced this
data and calculated refractive index gradients, which actually
are crucially dependent on humidity not just on temperature. See:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/Met-analysis.htm

&

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/weathernote.htm

It is true that at about 31,000' there is a 6deg. temperature
inversion across a vertical pressure difference of 75 mb or
about 2000'. This layer could well be superrefractive, but
reliable N-gradients are not possible here because dewpoint data
are unavailable. At around 54,000' the temperature rises 10deg.C
through 11 mb (about 300'). Even neglecting humidity this would
indicate a superrefractive N-gradient. For the lower atmosphere
region where humidity is available the refractivity profiles
show no evidence of significant discontinuity with the exception
of a surface SUBrefractive layer (this is opposite to a trapping
gradient and would tend to expand the distance to the radar
horizon at low levels). Application to the reported
phenomenology is at, e.g.:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/Lak-radar-analysis.htm

and elsewhere}---

DC: "We have the complete Blue Book file relating to the USAF
version, containing Perkin's original letter, the teletypes and
the Intelligence records, analysis by Hynek, Menzel and Blue
Book officers concluding AP as the explanation."

---{ The Blue Book evaluation in this case is a joke. See e.g.:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/Gregory-HQ.htm

&

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/Gregory-memo.htm

It would be generous to construe anything in this file as
approaching an 'analysis'.}---

DC: "We also have contemporaneous (1956 and 1957) Air
Ministry/RAF documents which describe the radar sighting,
confirm there was no visual report by the pilot, and appear to
suggest the report was explicable at anomalous propagation,
radar malfunction and/or the possibility of a stationary weather
balloon. This may seem unlikely on the surface, but there is
actually a substantial amount of evidence to suggest AP and
balloons played a role in the events."

---{ The contemporaneous documents referred to are the 23
Squadron Diary:

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/SquadDiary.htm

whose compiler records only that "nothing was seen by either of
the crews, and it was later decided that the object must have
been a balloon", referring of course to the 0200-0300 scrambles,
and the 1957 DDI(Tech) memo

http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/PRO-DDItech.htm

prepared for a ministerial briefing, which *may*, or may *not*,
refer to the Perkins/BOI-485/Wimbledon corpus, or some part
thereof. It is impossible to say, but whatever it refers to is
carried as "unexplained", not as AP or a balloon.}--- END

I have to say that the "substantial evidence" for balloons and
AP is not visible to me. Anyway I hope this provokes some
thoughts. Is it possible to have an informed consensus on this
case today? Or are the issues too intractable?


Regards

Martin Shough
http://www.parcellular.fsnet.co.uk/Lakenheath.htm








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   Sep > Sep 30

                         Filer's Files #41 � 2004

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:03:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:10:59 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #41 � 2004


Filer's Files #41 � 2004, Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern
Vice President of Skywatch International
September 29, 2004, Webmaster: Chuck Warren


New UFO Videos

The purpose of these files is to report the UFO eyewitness and
photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the
world and in space as reported each week. These Files make the
assumption that extraterrestrial intelligent life exists and my
hypothesis is that over a hundred UFO reports each week
represent factual UFO sightings in our skies. This week a near
miss Asteroid 4179 Toutatis Flyby, and sugar in space provides
clue to origin of life.

UFOs were seen over New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Minnesota,
Tennessee, Texas, Colorado, Utah, California, Washington,
Canada, Mexico, and France.

Russia is building flying saucers.


Private Rocket Soars into Space

A private manned rocket soared into space today, September 29,
after recovering from a wild corkscrew roll on its ascent to 62
miles altitude. Astronaut Michael Melvill at the controls of
Space Ship One, in a bid to earn a $10 million prize. Thanks to
AOL.

Near Miss Asteroid 4179 Toutatis Flyby

Today, September 29, 2004, our Earth will get its closest known
flyby this century from the largest asteroid thus far that could
destroy much of the planet and kill billions of people if it
collided with our planet. It will be visible mainly in the
Southern Hemisphere. Asteroid Toutatis will flyby at four lunar
distances from Earth but in space distances this is a near miss.
Additionally, these tumbling and bright asteroids have a
tendency to break apart. Smaller pieces could steer even closer
to Earth. Toutatis 4179, is a behemoth some 4.6 kilometers (2.9
miles) long by 2.4 kilometers (1.5 miles) across. Spinning like
an anarchic dumbbell, Toutatis will be at its closest to Earth
at 1337 GMT on Wednesday, when it will be 1,549,719 kilometers
(962,951 miles) away, according to the Near-Earth Object (NEO)
Program run by NASA (news - web sites)'s Jet Propulsion
Laboratory (JPL). It is close enough to be seen through
binoculars in the Southern Hemisphere.

Observers can see it passing not far from the bright star Alpha
Centauri. Were Toutatis to collide with Earth, the energy
released would be equivalent to tens of thousands of hydrogen
bombs, kicking up dust clouds which would shield out the
sunlight, plunging the planet into a lethal "impact winter."
Earth's atmosphere protects us from NEOs up to a diameter of 40m
(130 feet), an impact energy of about three megaton's. Follow
the links at www.spaceweather.com


Sugar in Space Provides Clue to Origin of Life

Astronomers using the National Science Foundation's giant Robert
C. Byrd Green Bank Telescope (GBT) have discovered a frigid
reservoir of simple sugar molecules in a cloud of gas and dust
some 26,000 light-years away, near the center of our Milky Way
Galaxy. The discovery suggests how the molecular building blocks
necessary for the creation of life could first form in
interstellar space.

The astronomers detected the 8-atom sugar molecule
glycolaldehyde in a gas-and-dust cloud called Sagittarius B2.
Such clouds, often many light-years across, are the raw material
from which new stars and planets are formed. The astronomers
detected the same molecule in a warmer part of that cloud in
2000, but the new detection shows that the sugar exists at an
extremely low temperature -- only 8 degrees above absolute zero,
the temperature at which all molecular motion stops. The cold
glycolaldehyde detections were surprisingly strong when compared
to the original detections and indicate that a considerable
quantity of this simple interstellar sugar exists at extremely
low temperatures.

Although the chemistry on Earth and in interstellar clouds is
much different, the results can be very similar. This and other
recent studies show that prebiotic chemistry -- the formation of
the molecular building blocks necessary for the creation of life
-- occurs in interstellar clouds long before that cloud
collapses to form a new solar system with planets. "Many of the
interstellar molecules discovered to date are the same kinds
detected in laboratory experiments specifically designed to
synthesize prebiotic molecules. This fact suggests a universal
prebiotic chemistry," said Jan M. Hollis of NASA's Goddard Space
Flight Center in Greenbelt, MD. This suggests that the molecular
building blocks for the creation of life on a new planet might
get a head start in the dust of interstellar clouds. Thanks to
the National Radio Astronomy Observatory
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0409/21sugar/


New York - Disk

DEPEW =96 On September 7, 2004, a bright white light with smaller
lights circling around it low in the sky was observed. The
bright white central light had tiny red/yellow lights circling
around it. The very bright light hovered low in the sky in the
east/north-east sky. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com

New York City -- I spoke to the witness who seemed very
concerned about her sighting. On Monday, September 6, 2004,
following the Labor Day weekend, the witness woke up at or
shortly before 5 AM, looked out her window to the southeast over
26th street in the neighborhood of Chelsea, Manhattan and I
noticed an orb of light suspended over 8th Avenue. She
immediately got her field glasses and trained them on this orb,
which appeared sparkly with refracted light, like a diamond.

She counted 11 to 13 other orbs of light that were hanging,
motionless and soundless, in the sky to the south of the first
one. There was at least one more light far to the left of the
first one to the north. The other orbs had a softer glow to
them, perhaps because the sky was slightly more overcast to the
south. The orbs to the south were in an odd formation that
actually looked, on closer inspection, like the Big Dipper
Constellation.

The witness states, "I can say with certainty that I was not
viewing the constellation itself; I know what stars in the night
sky look like and they are considerably smaller than these
orbs." Furthermore, the amount of light pollution in New York,
and the cloudy and overcast, would make it impossible to clearly
see any astronomical phenomena easily, or even at all. I
continued watching for some time and lights were still there,
unchanged in their position at 5:45 AM. "A few minutes later the
sky was beginning to lighten in the East and the lights were
gone, " she stated. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
www.UFOCenter.com


North Carolina =96 Contrails

RALEIGH -- Alan Caviness writes, "Regarding your Filer's File
#40 and the Denver sighting of an object with a contrail that
suddenly disappeared: I witnessed the disappearing contrail
phenomenon, myself, back in January of 2003 in just east of
Raleigh at sunrise and, a week later, just west of Raleigh close
to sunset." I did not see any associated objects, though. Both
contrails were about the same angle (40 degrees) off to my right
as I was driving. I watched the first contrail off and on for
over a minute with no changes whatsoever. It was in a beautiful
morning sky with a few cirrus clouds close by. A few seconds
after my eyes locked onto the contrail, for some strange reason,
it just disappeared within about 6 seconds. It was very, very
unnatural. Immediately after the disappearance, it was as if it
had never been there. I average seeing 2 or 3 actual UFOs a year
and know for sure that other things are happening to me as well.
I feel that it is quite possible that these were somehow not
real contrails and that it could have been a "mind control" game
being perpetrated on me.

The contrail at first appeared just as "real" as anything could
be, though. And I was very alert at the time. But after it
disappeared, it was just as "gone" as it could be. A week later,
while driving near sunset, the same kind of event happened to me
again. I locked on to a nice section of contrail in a beautiful,
peaceful sky. This second contrail had fanned out considerably.
It was broken into two separate sections with the shorter
section to the right actually displaying a nice "sundog" at the
proper angle from the sun -- a large splotch of rainbow colors
like I have seen from time to time in cirrus clouds.

I had watched it off and on for about a minute or so, thinking
all the while about the first disappearing contrail when
suddenly I saw it begin disappearing. It took about the same
amount of time. Once gone, it looked as though the contrail had
never been there. I was pretty sure that I was being "toyed
with" since I do experience UFO-related events ever-so-often and
that this was my second similar event in a week. I did notice
that the contrails disappeared at a very linear rate--as though
these trails were simply being "turned off" as a light being
steadily dimmed until it is completely out. I'm convinced that
this is UFO-related and the reality of these "contrails" appears
100.0% real. However, I already know from experience that the
beings in the UFOs here in central North Carolina are very good
with manipulation of the human mind. They apparently understand
what "thought" actually is all about, whereas we humans really
do not. Alan Caviness (independent UFO investigator in NC)
caviness1.nul


ATLANTA -- The witness was feeding birds at 7:25 PM, on
September 22, 2004, when she saw a bright white UFO high in the
sky. It was a bit faster than a satellite and traveling from
east to west. At first glance she thought it was a balloon, but
ruled that out almost immediately as it was really moving way
too fast. She was only able to watch it for about five seconds
since it was already 30 degrees above the western horizon. The
witness states, "Three minutes later, another one flew by that
was identical in speed and color as the first one." I came
inside and checked 'Heavens Above', to make sure that they were
not known satellites. No trails were seen and no sounds were
heard. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research


Ohio =96 George Ritter UFOs on TV

UFO Sightings -- Rob Packard writes, "Strange unidentified
objects hovering in the skies of Northwest Ohio." Some objects
were caught on tape. It's no science fiction film. It's a story
you'll only see on NBC 24. We decided to research the issue,
after several people called our newsroom Friday morning
reporting unusual sightings this week in the skies around
Fostoria. We did some research, took a trip and found a man
who's been investigating them for years. Frozen on videotape-
 shots of disk like objects recorded by George Ritter. In one
case a glowing object darts through the sky. Ritter makes it a
point to roll tape daily on the skies over his backyard. Over
the past six years he's stockpiled a collection of more than 400
video tapes containing 856 hours of raw footage. Some of the
suspicious objects were caught on tape just this week. "(I've
captured footage) of UFOs hundreds and hundreds of times.
There's something going on in Ohio that nobody's figured out
yet," Ritter told NBC 24 news. We called Fostoria Police and
talked with a patrol officer who says the last official report
of a UFO in their area was a few years ago. Copyright =A9 2004
WNWO-TV, a Raycom Media station. Associated Press may have
contributed to this report. All rights reserved .

FOSTORIA =96 I continue to talk to George Ritter on an almost
daily basis. The Swedish investigation is over, but the local
Toledo TV station has visited George and was amazed by his daily
videos of UFOs. George's RCA VHS camera continues to take videos
of UFOs, birds, planes and insects. Since you are all familiar
with the later, I have not shown these images. The objects other
than UFOs actually take up much of the footage, since a bird
will take a second or two to flyby, using thirty or so frames of
the video. The UFOs traveling at an estimated 1000 plus miles
per hour are usually shown on only one or two video frames.
Notice that Dr. Oren Swearingen is getting similar objects from
the Popocatepetl Volcano Mexican government web cameras. Thanks
to George Ritter


Minnesota - Four Spherical Orbs

LAKEVILLE =96 On September 7, 2004, the witnesses saw four green
solid lights in the horizon about three miles away. These
spherical orbs rotated counterclockwise for almost ten minutes
and changed course spontaneously. They rotated clockwise for a
while and eventually stopped rotation and started a decent
towards the ground. As they descended the orbs slowed their
rotation and sunk towards the earth. The total spectacle took
about fifteen minutes so the witnesses decided to hop in their
cars and follow the celestial visitor. The observer stated, "We
reached the main road about five minutes later and the UFO sank
faster then we could track it, so as far as we know it just
disappeared." These spherical green-lighted orbs seemed
inquisitive and changed their rotation at an unrecognizable
frequency while my companions could only watch in awe. I haven't
seen a UFO with this much complexity and mystique ever. Thanks
to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com


Tennessee - UFO Sightings on the Rise Again

ELIZABETHTON =96 MUFON's Kim Shaffer writes, On September 20,
2004, a truck driver who was driving home from work at about
9:30 PM, spotted a small aircraft in the darkness flying in a
straight line toward a local airport. The sky was clear and
unobstructed. As he watched the aircraft, a brilliant blue
object approached the aircraft from behind. The blue object was
flying about the same speed as the aircraft. The object hurt his
eyes as if he was watching a welder. He related that, "The blue
light was similar to a UV light that barber shops use for
sterilizing equipment, except this was much much stronger. He
watched for some 45-60 seconds, as the discoid shaped object
traveled along behind the plane. Then, it suddenly changed
course and sped off to the north at tremendous speed. It took
some time for his eyes to return to "normal". In communication
with local FAA, no anomalies were logged for that time frame and
no pilot reports filed.

WASHINGTON COUNTY -- A retired algebra professor who was driving
home on Sunday, September 20, 2004, along Highway 11 around 9
PM, saw a large acorn shaped object moving low in the sky over
Buffalo Mountain. The discernible shape was made by noting the
arrangement of lights on the object which he stated were quite
like a "marquis". The object was flying in ever tightening
circles. The lights were flashing in random, fast way,
exhibiting more than five different colors, that reminded him of
a Christmas tree. He pulled his car over and watched the bizarre
object rise, fall and finally moving up and behind the mountain
out of view.

This witness states that, "In 1966, he and his late wife, along
with hundreds of Johnson City citizens witnessed a gigantic
black disc shaped object block out all the stars in the sky on a
summer night." He also remembered that the giant disc had
multiple arrangements of lights on the bottom which flashed
sequentially. The Johnson City Press did a full page story on
the sighting.

BRISTOL =96 MUFON's Kim Shaffer reports he had a personal sighting
on September 11, 2004, and videotaped it on his Sony Handy-cam.
He states, "During my evening skywatch I spotted this tri-lobed
object as it moved from the southeast to the northwest." I first
suspected the anomaly was balloons but noted that both surface
winds and upper level cloud movement indicated a wind from the
northwest. I taped the flat black object for some eight minutes
as it moved slowly, stopping and then changing course slightly,
progressing northwest.

After I lost sight of the object, I went to the National Weather
service Aviation Page where wind conditions" at altitude" are
listed by airport. Checking "Tri*," winds were from the NNW at
all levels. One small piece of evidence which makes me think at
this point, these were not balloons. I have also checked all
over the internet, regionally at florists, grocery stores, and
novelty shops, etc, looking for a source for large flat black
latex balloons. Not only can I not find a supplier or
manufacturer, I cannot find anyone who even has ever sold such a
balloon. I have submitted a copy of the tape for analysis with
MUFON. Thanks to Kim Shaffer MUFON Director, TN. See video at:
www.mufontennessee.org


Texas =96 Disk

EULESS =96 The observers (a husband and wife) were driving
eastbound on Highway 183 on September 8, 2004, when he saw a
white disk shaped object flying at 2 to 3000 feet in the air.
The object was south of the freeway. He pointed the object out
to his wife. They watched the object for 23 seconds as it
appeared, became smaller very fast until they could not see it
anymore. They concluded the object left in a big hurry for it to
vanish so quickly. They also saw jets heading north into land at
Dallas Fort Worth International during this event. We know this
was not a small airplane, since it had no wings. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com


Utah - Zion National Park UFO

This is the BEST legitimate UFO picture I have ever seen. You
can clearly make out that this is a saucer. My friend, Dale, who
took this picture told me that he didn't even think it was
anything other than a bird until he enlarged the picture but it
is really something else. Thanks to Jon Barton Shields
bshields.nul and Skywatch-International Web
http://www.skywatch-international.org/


California =96 Changing String of Pearls

PACHECO =96 The witness was watching a video on September 8, 2004,
at 3:14 PM, when he heard a noise outside. When looked out the
window he saw just below the waning Moon, yet above the
constellation Gemini was a large burnt orange "planet" in the
sky. It looked like a larger version of what Mars looks like
when it was at its recent closest approach to Earth. It was
moving like a satellite, but it was too huge to be the space
station. I have seen it before. It was heading towards the
northeast. It was moving so slowly, I decided to go in and grab
a pair of binoculars. My 7x35 Tasco binoculars showed this
object not circular, and had amazing detail to it. The bottom of
it shone with a bright oval glow, just like it was a propulsion
of some kind. It reminded me of the Gulf Breeze photos of that
Polaroid UFO. Above the smaller oval bottom was a larger body
above it. It looked like three orange beams with at least two
dark columns between the glowing parts. Above the "columns" was
a dome of some sort, and it all seems to be one piece moving
together.

It seemed to be turning, like a tumbling satellite, but I could
actually see parts of the craft seeming to twist, giving itself
new shapes as it went along. As it continued, the bottom shone
brighter and dimmer, and so did the rest of the "craft." It took
on a long string-like shape with three prominent oval orange
lights, top, middle, and bottom after a while, and when it did
that, orange sparks began shooting from the bottom of the "oval"
glowing part. I've never seen anything like it. It made no
noise, and I'm led to believe it was a dying satellite of some
sort, but I've never seen such detail in a satellite. I watched
it for at least three minutes. The object was much larger than
Venus, although not as bright. Thanks to Peter Davenport
Director www.UFOCenter.com

MODESTO - R. David Anderson writes, "I have put together a
collection of string of pearls (ufo pictures), which I have
taken over the past month. I took these pictures in August and
September." The lights in these strings all travel in perfect
unison and seem to be connected by a faint light stream. The
movement of the string is perpendicular to its length. I have
been seeing this type of ufo often here, as many times as two or
three times a night. The pictures of the string of pearls UFOs
is on page 4 of my web site: http://www.ufobase.net/


Washington - Huge Triangle of Lights

REMOTE CAMPGROUND =96 Cliff Mickelson writes, "A group of highly
credible witnesses are reporting the sighting of a huge triangle
of lights that passed over a remote campground on the eastern
edge of the Washington State on September 12, 2004. The sighting
occurred several hours after dusk. The phenomena was described
as being a "huge" triangle of lights that moved with an eerie
exactitude across the night sky. Although campers were not
certain as to whether it was "one" object with three lights or
"three" different objects, there was consensus that the lights
moved in faultless unison across the heavens. Several campers
report that the stars appeared to be occluded in the space
between the lights. All witnesses agree that the object or
objects were located at a great altitude, perhaps bordering on
the edge of space. The object(s) remained in plain view for
several minuets despite the narrow confines of the heavily
wooded canyon campground location, ten miles west of Tampico.

The "triangle" seemed to be in no big hurry. This latest
sighting has taken place in an area enclosed by Mt. Rainier, Mt.
Adams, and the upper and lower Yakima Valleys. It is an area
unsurpassed for the number of documented UFO sightings. The
Yakima Indian Tribal Police, as well as individual tribal
members often report these and other such sightings during
routine patrols in the more inaccessible parts of the Yakima
Reservation. Visit to James Gilliland's web site:
http://www.eceti.org/index1.html http://www.rumormillnews.com/
Thanks to Cliff Mickelson The Surfing the Apocalypse Network
http://www.surfingtheapocalypse.com


Canada =96 Sightings

CLAY HILL CALEDON, ONTARIO =96 Two observers saw at least three
different objects in the sky in totally different locations on
September 22, 2004, at 8:30 PM, The C.N. Tower in Toronto, is
around 40 km southwest of my location. The first one was in the
northwest and it was very bright with almost a strobe light
affect with white, green and red lights as it moved very fast up
and down. My friend was having a hard time seeing the movements.
She was amazed at how fast it was moving. Then we looked to the
east and there was another one, again it moved and turned in the
same way. This location is a very popular spot and people have
joked about it for years, because these Clay Hills resemble a
Mars like appearance. I have been getting digital video of these
objects. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research

BETWEEN SMITHERS AND TELKWA, B.C. =96 The observer saw an unusual
object on September 22, 2004, while driving to Smithers at 6:40
PM, on Highway #16 when the lady saw a yellow/white bright light
coming in a downward motion from the Telkwa Mountain Range
heading in her direction. As the object drew closer it flew
across Highway #16 at about a hundred feet high and passed in
front the witness it appeared to be roundish in shape. The
bottom of the object had a light green glow to it. The lady
thought it was going to crash, but as it passed by she watched
the object rise up and disappear into the cloud cover and it was
gone! There was no tail or trail following behind it. The
witness was able to view the object for 15 to 20 seconds at the
most. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research


Hawaii- Oval

WAIKELE -- On September 8, 2004, a family observed something
very strange at 12 PM. The observer states, "Last month we saw a
large oval metallic object in the sky, so we grabbed some
binoculars and saw that it was accompanied by other shooting
objects." Two of them came to a complete stop and changed from a
small object to a large orange ball. Then they completely
disappeared.

A similar object and other shooting objects again appeared on
September 9, 2004, at around 12:00 noon. We again observed it
with binoculars, but at a much higher altitude. They tried to
capture this with a video camera but it seemed to be too high to
register on the video recorder. We will be looking again
tomorrow video in hand hopefully to provide proof of what I am
saying. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.UFOCenter.com


Mexico =96 Frequent UFO Sightings at Volcano

POPOCATEPETL VOLCANO =96 Dr. Oren Swearingen writes, "For several
years UFOs have had an unusual interest in observing Mexico's
active volcano Popocatepetl. These appearances have been seen
and recorded from the webcam set up by the Mexican government to
observe the activity of the volcano in event of imminent
eruption which might require the evacuation of a town on its
lower slopes. The camera is positioned on the neighboring
mountain, the extinct volcano, Ixtaccihuatl, and is usually set
in the wide angle mode. The objects that hover over Popocatepetl
are small and it is difficult to be certain of their identity.
That issue may now have been settled by the discovery that these
objects have been displaying intelligent actions! As an
illustration of this claim, print-outs from the webcam
transmissions in which three objects form a perfect triangular
formation and then repeat the performance on the following day-
 occupying the exact same three spots in the sky. An astounding
feat of navigation! In fact, when the two sheets of paper from
April 2nd and 3rd of 2002, are held together against a bright
light, they coincide perfectly.

If these objects are insects, then they are the most intelligent
bugs in Mexico. Although, the objects are in the same position
the cloud cover is very different in the two photos. These
objects have the uncanny ability to turn their lights on and off
while leaving and returning to the very same location.
Additionally, the objects hover and hold their position for long
periods of time, a very difficult task for a bug. The
conclusions, UFOs have a strange interest in Popocatepetl and
have been observing it for quite some time. Thanks to Dr. Oren
Swearingen

Editor's Note: Dr. Swearingen sent me dozens of printouts
showing objects over the volcano. Early in the morning there are
usually no UFOs in the images, minutes later an object will take
up a position, later a second, and finally a third object will
take up position. On succeeding days the UFOs will take up
exactly the same positions. Later they will depart. He even has
photos of insects landing on the window where the camera lens is
aimed clearly shows a fly or similar insect. Objects frequently
come and go to a particular hovering position in the upper right
corner of the screen and these are often illuminated. It should
be noted these Mexican government images are similar to George
Ritter's in Ohio.



France - Observation d'un Triangle Volant

TOWER N'EMETTAIT -- J. Boutin writes in French that I translated
to the best of my capability. "About one year ago, in the
evening while walking my dog towards the ancient medieval tower
called Tower N'=E9mettait at 11:15 PM, (23:15 Hours) I raised my
head to look 30 meters above the top when on the left I saw a
black triangle. On the sides were small red lights, six I
believe along the side of the dimension and in intensity
comparable with a star. The object was flying at low altitude
towards the northeast and appeared larger than the Tower
N'=E9mettait. It did not make any noise as it flew slowly. The sky
was clear without the moon. I do not know which is this type of
d'appareil j'ai. I thought of a secret military plane, but I do
not find any reports of this type. If you have an idea or if
others observed the same thing, please return an answer to me,
because I remain intrigued without really believing in the small
green men. Thanks to:- j.boutin4.nul


Russia =96 Building Flying Saucer

The U.S. Naval Air Systems Command has signed an agreement with
Russia=92s EKIP Aviation concern to cooperate in the production of
unique flying saucer-shaped aircraft developed in Russia,
perfect for putting out forest fires and monitoring oil
pipelines. Originally developed in 1992, the alien-looking
aircraft failed to secure funding from the Russian government.
Twelve years later, the U.S. and China are very interested in
making it work. Obviously, the unusual round shape in itself
makes such a vehicle exciting, but what are the practical
applications? =93This is a radically new craft,=94 Alexey Konovalov,
EKIP=92s executive director, explains. It doesn=92t require a long
runway and can land on sand, but most importantly, the shape of
the aircraft is a brilliant solution for getting rid of
vibration, a long-time problem in aircraft design. EKIP plans to
build the first unpiloted vehicles that could be used for
monitoring hard-to-reach areas and then move to building larger
craft weighing up to 100 tons. The unpiloted EKIP =93ships=94 could
aid in putting out forest fires as well as collecting
information that could be transmitted to a land base, Konovalov
said.

Originally, the Russian government had promised funding for the
project, but in 1995, three years after the construction
commenced, all funding was cut off. Private investors couldn=92t
be persuaded to commit the millions of dollars necessary to
continue work on the craft, Konovalov laments. Now, with the
agreement between EKIP and the Naval Air System Command signed,
EKIP is waiting for the funds to come in and in the meantime,
negotiating with China to discuss a possible joint venture.
Russian designers will keep the rights to their unique work, but
the vehicles might be produced either in Russia or the U.S.
Currently, the plan is to test the aircraft in 2007 and launch
it into mass production in another five years. Until then, any
strange shapes in the sky are certain to be flown by little
green men. Thanks to Mosnews.com and Ekip-Aviation-Concern.com
To Become A Member Of Skywatch-International, Click Below
http://www.skywatch-international.org/skywatch_membership_application.pdf


Dr John E. Mack: Dies in Road Accident

John E. Mack, M.D.,1929-04 professor of psychiatry at Harvard
Medical School and founder of the Center for Psychology & Social
Change He explored the abduction scenario.

In 1992, Dr. Mack co-chaired the Abduction Study Conference held
at MIT, a landmark scientific assembly on alien encounters. In
1993, Dr. Mack founded the Program for Extraordinary Experience
Research (PEER) to formalize his explorations in this area. They
worked with over 200 individuals from six continents who have
experienced encounters with unknown intelligences.

Dr. Mack is the author or co-author of eleven books, including A
Prince of Our Disorder, a Pulitzer Prize-winning biography of
Lawrence of Arabia, Abduction, and Nightmares and Human
Conflict. Passport to the Cosmos: Human Transformation and Alien
Encounter. He is the founder of the Department of Psychiatry at
the Cambridge Hospital and was an important asset to Ufology and
will be sorely missed. I had several long talks with John and he
was a wonderful person with great intelligence and compassion.



The Greater UFO/ET Congress of 2004

Will be held November 6 and 7th 2004, 11:00 am to 3:00 pm
Saturday and Sunday at the The Days Inn, Route 206 & NJTP Exit
#7 North Bordentown NJ, 609-298-6100 For more information visit
www.DRUFO.org or phone Pat Marcattillio (609) -631-8955 or Tom
Benson (609)-883-6926 after 6:00 PM.


Please DONATE TO KEEP THESE FILES COMING

Dear Readers - Filer=92s Files has been brought to you free on a
weekly basis for seven years. As of January 2004, requesting a
donation of $24 per year to enable me to continue with Filer=92s
Files. These files cannot exist without your help. Donations can
be sent to: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for
majorstar.nul You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or
Master Charge. You can also mail your check to George Filer, 222
Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055.

Many Thanks for your donations

New Mars CD showing dozens of images at much higher quality than
available on Internet for $25. Just contact us at the above
address.


WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW WHEN BUY OR SELL REAL ESTATE!

Get your free report and learn how you can obtain the best real
estate agent to help your buy or sell a home. To get a free copy
of this report e-mail me at : Majorstar.nul


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If you're thinking of moving or buying or selling a home anywhere
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MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership
includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join
MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask
questions contact MUFONHQ.nul or HQ.nul "The MUFON
Journal is now accepting qualified advertising, please call 1
(303) 932-7709 for more information."

Filer's Files is copyrighted 2004 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites
if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list
the date of issue. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar.nul Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to
keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE
ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George A. Filer
www.GeorgeFiler.com








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   Sep > Sep 30

                                Dr. John Mack

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:18:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:20:59 -0400
Subject: Dr. John Mack


Our deep condolences to Dr. John Mack's family


Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo

Miami UFO Center
Mmembers and Associates in
South America








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   Sep > Sep 30

                Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - King

From: Kyle King <kyleking.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:31:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:25:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules - King


>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:15:56 -0300
>Subject: Re: Bigelow's Inflatable Space Modules

<snip>

>That should have read, constructed in Texas, Kyle. Whereever
>they were manufactured the inference was that safety was
>subordinate to some manufacturer's bottom line. This from
>memory, from a press release about 5 years ago, from NASANews.
>Also I think I've seen reference to this by Dr. Robert Zubrin
>[sp].

>These newer multi layered, inflatable modules can take a hit by
>a marble sized meteoroid due to it's Kevlar construction and
>apparently some of them carry  recyclable water in internal
>jacket as well.


Hi Don,

I meant no offense. Just clarifying. Bigelow's ideas appear
sound, and the increased safety is a major plus, among others.
NASA's history where crew safety is concerned certainly has cone
into question lately, and rightly so.

I was just noting that Houston has a chip on its shoulder about
the fact that many NASA craft are designed, tested, etc at JSC,
but they are rarely if ever manufactured here... in Texas.

Perhaps the Senator you referred to was trying to keep R&D
dollars and jobs here. Same result, if so.

NASA is going to have to think a little more open-mindedly from
now on. Since private enterprise has now succeeded in putting a
man in space, a cooperative agenda might net some real
innovations, and Bigelow's ideas could well be amongst them...in
spite of Senatorial meddling. I hope so. The rewards to be
reaped from encouraging new thought and welcoming alternative
ideas far outweigh the potential loss of local jobs.

Best Regards,

Kyle (an unfortunate Houston apologist)








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                        PRG Update - October 1, 2004

From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:47:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:54:43 -0400
Subject: PRG Update - October 1, 2004



PRG
Paradigm Research Group

Update - October 1, 2004

Dr. John Mack (1929 - 2004)

In paraphrase of New York Mayor Giuliani, every loss of a
pioneering researcher, witness or activist is too much to bear.

John Mack was one of the great men and women of the 20th
Century. The national institutions do not yet know this. The
American people do not yet know this. But they will in good
time.

John's contributions to this world, which extend well beyond
experiencer research, will be recounted over the coming weeks.
His work and legacy can be most readily reviewed at
www.centerchange.org.

Stephen Bassett first entered the arena of extraterrestrial-
related phenomena research/activism when the Center for
Extraordinary Phenomena Research (PEER) founded by Dr. Mack
generously offered the opportunity to come to Cambridge in 1996
and assist the Center. "Meeting John Mack was an important
moment in my life. His courage and brilliance led me into this
work. He was in good health with years of vital contribution
ahead. He was the most accomplished and recognized academic in
the world willing to speak to and examine the most controversial
issue of our time. He is irreplaceable, yet must be replaced.
Someone of stature within the academic community must come
forward to take up his legacy."

Keyhoe, McDonald, Hynek, Schiff, Turner, Corso, Clear, Mallove,
Mack and so many others have not lived to see their related work
and wisdom vindicated as the truth embargo enters its 58th year.
The embargo will end, and Dr. John Mack, along with Budd
Hopkins, Dr. David Jacobs and others, will properly be
recognized as courageous pioneers seeking to understand the
human condition. On the other side of disclosure the awards and
accolades will come from "mainstream" society.

Until then, a sad farewell to a great man who put compassion and
understanding before comfort and convenience, truth before
tenure, and made the last chapter of his life the most profound.


Ralph Nader on Coast to Coast AM

The July 25, 2004 PRG "Letter to the Candidates"
[www.paradigmclock.com/Candidates_Open_Letter.htm] included
this paragraph:

"On their behalf [millions of Americans] the following open
memos to three of these four candidates are posted - Bush and
Kerry because either could win and Kucinich because his
worldview already embraces the possibility of an
extraterrestrial presence. Nader is left out because he can=80=99t
win, has no interest in extraterrestrial-related phenomena and
has rebuffed every approach to inform him on the subject"

The sentence referring to Ralph Nader was an intentioned
substitute for an "open letter." Behind this "message" was
admiration for a great American coupled with great frustration
that a man with such an intellect and open mind would not
address or take high level briefings on the extraterrestrial-
related phenomena issue and concomitant truth embargo. Nader is
a true independent, is not afraid to mention the
"unmentionables" (with one notable exception), will not bow to
the "republicrat" uniparty or the spin doctors and mercenary
consultants, and is willing to take intense heat for his
positions and decisions. If such a person cannot speak to the
extraterrestrial-related phenomena/cover-up issue, who would
dare to do so?

In this context it was gratifying to listen to candidate Nader's
September 24 appearance on Coast to Coast with George Noory.
Nader well knew the ET issue is a, if not the, major theme of
this program. His very presence on the program was tangential to
the most controversial issue in the world today. He stated the
core positions of his campaign and
took questions. One of those questions was as follows:
____________________

[Kevin from Connorsville, IN] I was just wondering, if you were
elected president, sir, what would be your position on divulging
information concerning UFOs to the American public?

[Nader] I agree the Air Force has not disclosed everything. I
have no idea (laughing), I mean there's all kinds of theories, I
have no idea why they don't level with the public. You know,
there are suspicious this and thats, and the Air Force gets to
these places. It could be something that they're doing. It could
be something that some corporation is doing. As far as UFOs are
concerned my answer is, "well, if they are landing on earth, how
come none of them ever stay?

[Nader] But there's the other thing. This brings to mind
something really strange. This is really weird. Of all the
universities in the country, of all of the colleges in the
country. John Kerry and George W. Bush both hail from Yale. And
of the fraternities at Yale, they both hail form Skull and
Bones. And the question I want to ask is, "this oath of secrecy
they take when ther're undergraduates, how long does it last,
what does it cover and at what point might it conflict with
their presidential duties or with their relations with other
bonesmen, as they're called, who may be corporations that have
business with the federal government or are exposed to law
enforcement potential by the federal government? I don't think
it's a trivial issue. I think they ought to basically discuss it
candidly, because these oaths of secrecy are supposed to go for
the duration, not just when they're undergraduates. It's really
weird, though. I mean, think of the probability of this
happening - the same university, roughly the same time, I think
Kerry was two
years ahead of Bush, and the same secret society.
_____________________

Ralph Nader has fielded a lifetime's worth of tough questions, but he
was clearly not comfortable with this one. Since only knowledge can
improve on that, PRG will again contact the Nader campaign and reiterate
to the candidate that meetings with top researchers, witnesses and
activists can be arranged immediately, if he truly wants to have an
informed position on the most important and controversial issue of his
time. They would spend their own money to come and brief him so
he can speak to the American people with confidence.

________________________________________________________

Paradigm Research Group
E-mail: ParadigmRG.nul: www.paradigmclock.com
Cell: 202-431-2459
4938 Hampden Lane, #161
Bethesda, MD 20814
_________________________________________________________

1st Annual Exopolitics Expo - The X-Conference
Hilton Washington DC North/Gaithersburg
www.x-conference.com
Tapes/DVDs available at: www.lostartsmedia.com








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   Sep > Sep 30

                     Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved - Colvin

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:40:51 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:11:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved - Colvin


-----

Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:47:00 +0100
From: Jerry Goodenough <j.goodenough.nul>
  To: skeptic.nul
Subj: RE: FWD (UFO UpDate) Re: endlesham (Dis)Solved

>From: Terry W. Colvin
>Sent: 28 September 2004 23:33
>To: Forteana /Alternate Orphan/; skeptic.nul;
>uasr.nul
>Subject: FWD (UFO UpDate) Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved

>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:58:07 +0000
>Subject: Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved

>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:02:47 -0700
>>Subject: Re: Rendlesham (Dis)Solved

>Excellent point. As an ex-USAF enlisted man myself, my mind
>boggles at the notion that someone could fake or stage such
>events on a strategically important Air Force Base.

>The story makes no sense at all.

>That sucker would be in the brig before you could say "Pelican
>guano."  No way!


Why? A guy drives around an empty runway flashing lights in the
fog at the guards? It's a joke. Who's going to tell the
authorities? The scared guards? They're going to own up to being
suckered? The important point is not THIS hoax but the hoaxer's
claim that these pranks were common, and so it is quite likely
that on a latter occasional a similar hoax took place OUTSIDE
the base, causing the guards to wander off into Rendlesham
Forest in search of the lights.

The fear of the brig was more relevant to the guards on THIS
occasion. Firstly, whatever the cause, they left their posts.
Secondly they strayed ARMED onto territory where they had no
authority to be, and so were liable to arrest by the civilian
power. Had they been caught like this, it would have created a
lot of bad publicity - and a possible diplomatic incident - at a
time when the existence of American nuclear weapons on British
soil in bases like Rendlesham was already highly controversial.
A fistful of regulations were being broken, by hoaxer and hoaxed
alike, so everyone had an interest in keeping quiet about it.

>Also, Col. Halt (whom I know and have interviewed at length) is
>a very impressive witness, whose testimony tends to be discarded
>at will by second-guessing, armchair debunkers whose main claim
>to knowledge appears to be based on visits to the site 20-plus
>years later and totally erroneous assertions about lighthouses.
>
>- Dick

Halt & his men clearly were seeing the Orford Ness lighthouse at
times and regarding it as a UFO. This is obvious both from the
audio-tape of their conversation at the time and from later
investigation. (If it was a UFO, it was one that was located in
the same direction as the light-house and flashing a light with
the same frequency as the light-house. What are the chances of
that happening?)

Halt's error is understandable and is clearly described at

http://www.ianridpath.com/ufo/rendlesham2.htm

by Ian Ridpath, who has obviously walked in the Rendlesham area
more than I have, and produces some excellent photographs to
explain and substantiate what Halt saw. (His site at

http://www.ianridpath.com/ufo/rendlesham.htm

 has lots of interesting material clearly presented and showing
just how evanescent the evidence for any so-called UFO is here.)
But I used to walk in the area near Orford and know just how
spooky it is at dusk when the mist comes in. It is easy to get
lost and very hard to tell directions. A bunch of jumpy
servicemen on guard duty could easily be mistaken like this.

Impressive as Col Halt may be in person, his testimony amounts
to seeing lights in the dark, on a foggy night, in an area where
we know there were lights. Apart from the lights that these
people saw, there isn't any other evidence at all. Quite why so
many 'Forteans' get excited about this, I do not know. If
Rendlesham is really the best substantiated UFO incident, as has
been claimed, then it is no wonder that ufology is in such poor
shape these days.

Dr Jerry Goodenough
University of East Anglia
England
"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence." (David Hume)


-----







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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:55:05 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:22:22 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Santiago Yturria <syturria.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:56:53 -0500
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>From: Vicente Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:16:59 +0200 (CEST)
>>Subject: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

>>Please find enclosed some recent news from Dr Claude Poher,
>><Claude.Poher.nul>

>>-----

>>You may be interested to know that I got photos of the oils
>>flames from the gulf of Mexico platforms confirming the
>>interpretation of the Flir camera video made from an aicraft of

>>http://www.universons.com
>>Sincerely
>>Claude POHER
>>25 September 2004

>Just as an important information. Last Sunday in Mexico the
>Cantarel oil flames hoax was exposed on national television
>during the two-hour live broadcast of the Grandes Misterios TV
>show presenting the facts and official information that exposed
>and disqualified the hoaxer once for all.

>The pro-cover up campaign an it's attempts to discredit the
>Mexican Air Force, their officials and Secretary of Defense
>after the UFO disclosure failed when the conspiracy was
>discovered and exposed on national TV. The reactions of the
>Mexican people were massive sending messages to the tv station
>of support to the Air Force and officials for opening the UFO
>case to the people.

>During the broadcast every element of the Campeche case was
>analysed, proving and confirming the unknown origin and nature
>of the phenomena. The exposition was clear and definitive and
>the hoax chapter was closed.

>It seems that Mr. Phoer is proving his ignorance of the real and
>official facts and trying to distract the attention of some
>people from the escence of the case. It's clear that Mr. Phoer
>as well as some followers of the Mexican hoaxer are trying
>desesperately to revive the conspiracy campaign and, as the
>Mexicans saying goes: "They are dancing the dance of the fools."

>Many discussionr and debates around this amazing case continue
>and it seems that, as usual there, will not be a general
>agreement. So much talk, but atin the end the conclusion will be
>the same:

>Words mean nothing, the phenomena means everything.


Listers,

[NOTE: For those of you that always seem to take everything I
have to say as personal, I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just
pointing out something about investigation.])


The Mexico UFO/FLIR case appears to have joined the ranks of the
many UFO cases that are now simply topics of debate, at least
that how it seems for now.

I've watched with great pain as people jump back and forth on
the List attempting to coordinate video forensics, transcripts,
translations, and other critical evidence. I've then watched
folks going back and forth arguing about some of the results.
One of the messages I try to make loud and clear for folks out
there doing investigations is that investigation needs to be
completed before press.

While the UFO subject matter is a controversial one with many
uncommon and unusual aspects challenging us, the basic protocol
of investigation does not change. Dr.Hal Puthoff has a saying
I've come to greatly apprecaite, "The data is the data." When
your investigation is complete, and you have a confirmed anomaly
supported by data, your position now has much more credibility
when you send out that press release or hold that press
conference.

We've all seen skeptics try to use their silly and often
publicized excuses for everything, and they tend to be more well
received since they appear as scientific authorities (i.e.:
swamp gas, stars, et al). But when the hard science comes into
play and an investigation is properly conducted, well, the data
is the data and the difficulty in debunking it becomes far
greater.

Case management is paramount in any investigation. If you can't
perform good case management, you're going to be ice skating up
a hill backward, which I'm sure looks silly and could be
painful.

I know a few people have put a great deal of time, money, and
resources into this case and I greatly appreciate the work. UFO
investigation is not easy by any means and too often thankless -
 and I'm sure some will now think it is also full of critical
idiots ;-)

I'm still very much open to see the end data on this case, but
at the present time I do not have high hopes of it leading to
anywhere or being a monumental case of the type which opens new
doors.


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM









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                            Memories Of John Mack

From: Mike Bird - MUFON Canada <mikebird.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 01:01:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:29:20 -0400
Subject: Memories Of John Mack


I had the privilege of seeing John speak for the first time at
MUFON '93. Shortly after that I invited him to come to Toronto
to speak in a lecture series I was planning for '95. As it
turned out the Learning Annex was going to bring him. So I
removed John from my program, and in the end he never came
through to Toronto...

I saw him again at MUFON '96, where we were able to have a quick
lunch.

Over the ensuing years I have driven to Boston 4 times and once
to New York City to be part of things that PEER organized.

One time Henry McKay and I drove through a snow storm to hear
John & Budd Hopkins talk in Boston. The following day Henry and
I went to see Betty Hill for a couple of hours.

As a sad aside, Betty is not well. I phoned her yesterday to
tell her about John, and her care givers thought this news not
appropriate to tell her.

I last saw John in Montreal in May. He led an afternoon workshop
that I attended. Afterwards 8 of us went down to the bar for a
quick drink & chat, before John had to move on to another talk.
I paid for the round, and someone took a picture of John & I and
others at our table.

I had just started planing, last week, for a UFO Conference here
in Toronto next Sept 17/18. Guess who I had as my final speaker?

John was the most amazing man I have ever met. It will take
dozens of people to fill his shoes.

Maybe that's the only good thing that can come out of his
untimely death; that he has motivated others to raise the bar of
truth, from where he himself pushed it.

I have great memories of John, but I will still miss him
tremendously.

I extend my love to John's family, and to those who have worked
with him over a period of time. All of these people have
suffered the greatest loss, because they knew him longer than
the rest of us.


Mike Bird

"We must say all the words that should be spoken, before they
are lost and gone forever" by Chris de Burgh in "Shine On".








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                  Re: A Wake Up Call Perhaps? - Gottschall

From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:10:14 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:31:58 -0400
Subject: Re: A Wake Up Call Perhaps? - Gottschall



>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:47:40 EDT
>Subject: A Wake Up Call Perhaps?

<snip>

>Ufology is highly popular with the people of this world but it's
>not popular with the governments and services that are supposed
>to accomodate the people. What's wrong with this picture?

<snip>

Can't agree with you there Greg. Ufology is _not_ popular with
the people of this world.

What's wrong with the picture is that the people who want
the UFO phenomenon to be brought to light don't make enough
difference at the voting booth!

When the UFO subject translates into votes then we'll see
something happen, not before.

We're just twiddling our thumbs keeping the subject alive while
filling in time until our civilization evolves - if ever.


Sheryl Gottschall
(down under)








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                           Tribute To Dr John Mack

From: Roy Hale <roy.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:24:02 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:51:16 -0400
Subject: Tribute To Dr John Mack


Dear Friends,

I have placed a tribute song on my web site, to the memory of Dr
John Mack, author of passport to the cosmos.

The track is titled, Starfriends - Our friends Of The Cosmos.
Its in MP3 format

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/UFOIndex.shtml

Scroll down the page and click on the small cosmos picture
on the left.

I would like to think John is looking down on us hoping for
all of us to keep finding those elusive answers he always
sought.


Roy








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              Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:52:09 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:54:06 -0400
Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification


>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:55:05 -0700
>Subject: Re: 29 Photos Confirming Oil Flame Identification

<snip>

>[NOTE: For those of you that always seem to take everything I
>have to say as personal, I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just
>pointing out something about investigation.])

>The Mexico UFO/FLIR case appears to have joined the ranks of the
>many UFO cases that are now simply topics of debate, at least
>that how it seems for now

<snip>

>I've watched with great pain as people jump back and forth on
>the List attempting to coordinate video forensics, transcripts,
>translations, and other critical evidence. I've then watched
>folks going back and forth arguing about some of the results.
>One of the messages I try to make loud and clear for folks out
>there doing investigations is that investigation needs to be
>completed before press.

<snip>

>Regards,

>Royce J. Myers III
>UFOWATCHDOG.COM

Royce, you've said it all! Next time I see ya I'll have a copy
of your original post and I want it autographed. :)

Only thing I could add would be that researchers should always
keep their tempers in their back pockets.


Best,

Greg